00:00:55 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["I fear that I must depart for now."] 00:02:22 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:17 ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:04:11 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:05:58 -!- bsummersett [n=bsummers@udhcp-macvpn-702.public.engin.umich.edu] has quit [] 00:08:13 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-125-112.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:09:05 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:10 crink [n=crink@210.110.159.199] has joined #lisp 00:09:38 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:43 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:10:54 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-42cea63aa50c423b] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:12:37 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 00:13:03 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:38 boo, rsync from common-lisp.net fails 00:14:39 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:02 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:16:25 -!- theoffset [n=ismael@132.254.52.63] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:03 p_l [i=plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-1b3bf250d286488d] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:56 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BC09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:21:25 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:24:31 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.66.203] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:29:28 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:15 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:33:00 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 00:33:16 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-127-2.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:36:34 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:37:54 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 00:39:18 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 00:46:10 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:46:17 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 00:47:13 antifuchs, for the purposes of git-cvsimport? :-) 00:48:50 -!- chris2 [n=chris@91.22.176.138] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:52:41 benny` [n=benny@i577A066E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:53:26 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:07 Jacob_ [n=yong@61.181.247.170] has joined #lisp 00:55:20 -!- jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:36 -!- Jacob_ is now known as Guest32857 01:00:41 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:02:07 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:02:18 There we go, now I have a spot to hang the alcor-2 chipset emulation. 01:03:12 ozy| [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:41 -!- p_l|backup [n=plasek@pp82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["CNXMAN: SHUTTING DOWN FAILOVER NODE"] 01:04:36 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:06:47 Hmm, "Index 157 out of bounds for (SIMPLE-VECTOR 157), should be nonnegative and <320." 01:07:02 That's a neat error message. 01:07:10 Where'd the 320 come from? 01:07:19 Oh. 01:07:38 Yeah, I can almost see how to get to 320 from 157. 01:08:33 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB!"] 01:08:46 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A00F3.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:09:04 kenyao [n=kenyao@58.61.214.96] has joined #lisp 01:11:06 nyef, it's not terribly easy to factor this out.. 01:11:07 deepfire: , maybe. 01:11:40 Most probably in fact; I don't think the fix's been committed yet. 01:11:50 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:08 -!- deliana [n=deliana@ABordeaux-158-1-83-69.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:13:23 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:34 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:15:29 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:12 Hello, anyone here have a moment for a package question? 01:16:39 theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 01:17:21 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 01:18:00 Don't ask to ask, just ask.. 01:18:10 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087FA43.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:39 Do you guys think it's better to create specials.lisp and put all the special variables there? I personally don't like it because it's easier to read codes if we put special variables near the codes where we use them. 01:20:01 I have two symbols loaded from the same namespace export list, one is internal and the other is not? How can that be? I have the apropos list of both if that would help. 01:20:11 -!- brandonz [n=brandon@216.41.93.130] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:20:44 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:54 <_death> one of them might be inherited from another package 01:22:38 _death: I didn't know they could do that. 01:23:32 tomoyuki28jp: I think it depends on the project. 01:23:52 nyef: What do you mean by "it depends on the project"? 01:23:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 01:24:29 Actually, scratch that, it depends on the use of the special and how specials can be grouped. 01:24:57 I have a compiler-macro-function. when in the following (foo (bar 'baz)) would be called with both foo and bar having a macro-compiler-function. It seems that foo is expanded first, then bar, but after that, it doesn't try to reexpand the expanded foo, for the expanded bar. 01:25:16 I've been known to have a file full of just defvar and defparameter forms, but they were mostly related variables (CPU state for an emulator). 01:25:43 can I somehow force it to reiterate over foo, given the fact that I know that compiler-macro-functions are enabled (as I can ask it from within a compiler-macro-function) 01:26:07 madnificent: No, you can't. Can I interest you in a DEFTRANSFORM? 01:27:08 nyef: I have no clue what it is, but I presume so 01:28:02 It's a Python thing, so it's only good for SBCL and CMUCL, but it allows you greater access to the compiler guts while doing your expansion. 01:28:51 sigh, I don't know, that doesn't sound really great for the moment 01:29:24 can I ask the compiler to first expand whatever is in the body? 01:29:27 Well, your only other option is to do macroexpansion directly from your outer macroexpander. 01:29:46 <_death> hmm, I would've thought that you can call the c-m-f and use the result in the form returned 01:30:38 Yeah, okay, if you're willing to go to the trouble of doing your macroexpansion "by hand", then fine. 01:30:44 But that's usually not a good idea. 01:30:46 sbt [n=sbt@rrcs-208-125-96-78.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:31:09 sigh 01:32:49 there is no way in which I can say: do outer to inner compiler-macro-expansion, until you drop? 01:33:19 How far inner? If it's more than one level, you need a code-walker. 01:33:36 As soon as you involve a code-walker you have more trouble. 01:34:03 At which point I have to ask, "what are you really trying to do?" 01:34:05 nyef: no, I don't want to have a code-walker... that's what the compiler is for :P 01:34:18 So, work -with- it, not against it. 01:34:23 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@29.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 01:34:40 nyef: I've created a compiler-macro-expander for a scripting language that looks much like LML 01:34:50 so its sexps -> xhtml 01:34:55 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has left #lisp 01:35:13 but most of that can be precompiled and it looked like an easy job to do 01:35:38 Okay, question 1. Does this scripting language implementation work -without- the compiler-macros? 01:35:47 sure 01:37:00 Question 2. How much of your optimization can be done via normal (non-compiler) macros? 01:37:14 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:38:10 Note that you can easily pass arbitrary data lexically deeper, but it's not really possible to pass anything back upwards without a code-walker. 01:39:22 xuanwu [n=xuanwu@angel.cs.indiana.edu] has joined #lisp 01:39:30 well, I'd guess that in many cases, I'd get 75% of it... but it would be somewhat missing the point, as I'd like to throw away the idea of cached pages wherever possible :) 01:40:11 nyef: I can't ask the compiler to macro-expand whatever possible in a certain sexp, and get that result back? 01:40:29 No, you can only ask to macroexpand the outermost sexp. 01:40:37 nyef: if I can iterate over it manually (and I know a good starting-point for that), then I'd be done 01:40:38 sigh 01:40:57 As soon as you start iterating over sub-sexps, you're implementing a walker. 01:41:25 I wanted to iterate over the top one, sadly 01:41:35 I'm going to go to bed, have a night's rest over it 01:41:52 Sleep well, and I hope you come up with a satisfactory solution. 01:42:26 I'm not going to take over the world with it 01:42:34 Or figure out that we have some miscommunication, that might also clear things up. 01:42:36 but it would've been a nice demonstration of how nice lisp can be 01:42:54 nyef: no, you're probably right... it doesn't do it now either 01:42:58 actually just another thing 01:43:11 would it be hard to add a feature like that to the sbcl compiler? 01:43:23 What, a code-walker? 01:43:42 There is one in SBCL, but it's part of PCL, not Python. 01:44:03 And I don't know how to use it... or why it's necessary. 01:44:28 no, a compiler-macro system that would head back to check if the parent-expressions can reexpand once more 01:44:50 nyef: that might be an interesting hack. 01:45:46 pkhuong: What, doing full compiler-macroexpansion up and down the entire source tree until it doesn't change anything? 01:46:35 _death & deepfire: Thanks, I think I have it now! 01:46:41 it could introduce code that needs an infinite amount of time to compile though 01:46:53 PCL sans sb-walker 01:46:58 Oh. 01:47:07 Yeah, something I've been thinking about today. 01:47:20 It clearly serves -some- purpose, though. 01:47:35 And I'm not sufficiently read up on PCL guts to have figured it out yet. 01:47:59 pkhuong: does your recent work on SSE means that we might get SSE instructions used to speed upvarious operations? :) 01:48:13 yes. 01:48:34 I also want PCL in the cold-core, which could mean doing braid bootstrap in genesis and using host CLOS to keep track of things at xc-time. 01:48:35 It could have happened before, but it'd have been much more painful. 01:48:47 cool. With CL we might get it used much more efficiently, too :) 01:48:58 nyef: CLOS in the compiler (!) 01:49:34 madnificent: Yes and no. You can still easily create a compiler-macro that causes the compiler to end up in an infinite loop. Just have it return an equal-but-not-eq version of its input form. 01:49:54 pkhuong: Uh-huh. And in the -type system-. 01:50:07 ooh, now that. 01:52:22 Ok, I found my error. Does anyone know how to create a patch with darcs? 01:53:00 darcs diff 01:53:46 WarWeasle: darcs record, darcs send 01:54:20 Sweet! Thanks guys. 01:54:57 It's my first real contribution to the cause. 01:55:45 pkhuong: I think we need more documentation on how the whole type system thing works and how to extend it. 01:56:24 pkhuong: And I think you might have missed a spot in src/class.lisp. Did you find *non-instance-classoid-types*? 01:56:56 true. kreuter, nikodemus and krystof have dived around various part of it. 01:57:03 oh, interesting. 01:57:11 Yup, missed that. 01:57:17 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:36 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has quit ["leaving"] 01:59:16 -!- xuanwu [n=xuanwu@angel.cs.indiana.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:03:55 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCF692.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:35 nyef: true. The longer I think of it, the more I think a code-walker could be a fair thing to build. It'd be far too much work for what it would need to do in my case. But then again, it is for fun and for learning... 02:06:01 madnificent: Or you could try to use sb-walker. 02:06:19 nyef: but that is only sbcl? 02:06:38 <_death> there's cl-walker 02:06:43 Yes, though there's almost certainly a CMUCL equivalent, as they're from the same stock and it's required for PCL... 02:07:31 nyef: do you understand what that list does? It's a lit of classoids whose instaces can't be INSTANCEs or FUNCALLABLE-INSTANCEs (e.g. sealed)? 02:08:06 Hunh. Neat. 02:08:36 I didn't dig that far into it, I was just looking for where you hooked your new type into the system by searching for how SAPs were hooked in. 02:08:48 And I noticed that there was a reference and that you hadn't mentioned it. 02:09:07 nyef: I may in the end do that 02:09:16 thanks for the information 02:09:25 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B6B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:09:32 _death: yes, it does look overkill to me :) 02:10:23 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:10:44 IIUC, anyway. I think it makes sense with the way complex-subtypep-arg2 uses that list. 02:12:06 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:12:08 Do I understand correctly that the derive-type optimizers operate in terms of the lisp type system and not the underlying compiler type system? 02:12:42 Fairly certain it's the compiler type system (types, not specifiers). Obviously, not IR2 types. 02:13:33 (Ugh. It may be time for me to optimize this emulator. It's starting to run long delay loops with 22 bit or longer counters, and that takes a while.) 02:13:53 nyef: alpha one? :) 02:14:35 p_l: Alpha one. It's poking aruond with the alcor-2 CIA_CTRL register, probably trying to get the PCI bus started or something. 02:14:55 Umm... How do I do slime-eval from the debugger? 02:14:57 CIA? Isn't that serial? 02:15:12 nyef: RET at the REPL and type stuff in? 02:15:39 nyef: And SRM would try to start serial immediately, before fully getting rest of the busses on 02:15:40 p_l: No, that's the control chip. 02:16:03 pkhuong: From sldb, though? I'd rather not mess with my repl state too badly. 02:16:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:57 Ah, there we go. e is eval-in-frame. 02:16:58 nyef: heh, I still have somewhere tucked in my mind CIA in relation to serial interface :) 02:17:12 Probably because of some complex interface adaptor... 02:17:18 6522, maybe? 02:17:35 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 02:17:59 I dunno. The other association I had was part of VMS security system 02:18:08 Anyway, I got a look at the current value of CIA_CTRL, and it definately tweaked the low bit, which is PCI_EN. 02:18:20 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:42 so I guess it's doing initial PCI scanning 02:18:54 Hasn't even hit the bus, just brought it out of reset state. 02:19:33 nyef: Maybe for MMIO? 02:20:20 It'll probably do something soon, but as I said, it's in a delay loop after having set PCI_EN, so it's not actually doing anything other than waiting. 02:20:45 waiting for interrupt? 02:21:02 And I'm interrupting it every so often because I don't want my CPU to overheat to badly because thermal shutdown sucks. 02:21:07 No interrupts configured yet. 02:21:48 nyef: don't you have cpufreq interface or something similar to stop cpu from overheating? :) 02:21:57 This is one of those situations "Clear this bit, wait 400 ms, set it, wait another 400 ms, then start doing stuff." 02:22:01 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:22:10 hehe 02:22:11 Might, but never configured it, and wouldn't trust it anyway. 02:22:28 nyef: what cpu? 02:22:36 Host or emulated? 02:22:39 host 02:23:00 model name : AMD Turion(tm) 64 X2 Mobile Technology TL-58 02:23:12 cpu MHz : 1900.000 02:23:16 nyef: those have no problems with cpufreq :) 02:23:49 (I hit emergency cooling once on TL-50 @98°C. Fun) 02:24:09 I'm sure. But at the same time, s2ram only worked as of 2.6.28, so I just plain don't trust this hardware to behave entirely reasonably. 02:24:24 nyef: let me guess, ATi card? 02:24:28 nVidia. 02:24:44 It's an HP tx1000 series. 02:25:01 heh, better situation than I was. Radeon 1x00 series were famous for not waking up after suspend 02:25:14 (due to hardware side problems, too!) 02:25:19 Nasty. 02:25:37 CPU scaling works perfectly, though. EV7 was a good arch to mimic :) 02:25:44 bsummersett_ [n=bsummers@c-98-209-19-237.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:45 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B09D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:51 I'm really looking forward to the nouveau people getting things sorted for working suspend and stuff. 02:26:28 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:13 Hrm. This loop is going to take forever this way. 02:27:54 *nyef* sets the CPU register down from something over #xc00000 to #x4000. 02:28:22 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:28:41 Hrm. CPU write long to #x8700070800. That's... not CSR space. 02:29:25 CSR? 02:29:31 Control and Status Register. 02:31:08 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:12 -!- stassats [n=stassats@91.122.99.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:33:02 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:33:32 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 02:34:09 -!- moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:34:47 Okay, Looks like the #x87 range is PCI config space, CIA CSRs and FlashROM. 02:35:53 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:41:23 Futher breakdown puts it in the PCI config space. 02:43:50 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:48:21 Hrm. Type 0 address, IDSEL 7, function 0, register #x10? 02:56:54 -!- voidengineer [n=stderr@75.139.179.172] has quit ["leaving"] 02:57:24 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:15 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:00:19 -!- djgera [n=djgera@host19.200-82-90.telecom.net.ar] has quit [] 03:09:26 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:10:30 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@96.229.99.100] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:12:46 Okay, time I got some sleep. 03:12:49 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:17:58 xah_lee [n=x_a_h@c-24-6-175-142.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:20 -!- ozy| [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 03:18:45 if i want to do (reduce 'concat '("1" "2" "3")), but starting with "x", do i just cons "x" to the list or is there some other way? 03:21:02 xah_lee: try #emacs for elisp 03:21:32 ty. :D 03:22:39 that's cl package actually, n i'm ban'd in #emacs btw, but ok. :) 03:22:51 yeah i was about to say.. good luck with the ban :) 03:23:46 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:24:14 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:29:22 -!- ddrl [n=ryan@cpe-24-27-76-127.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:38:17 xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:27 -!- kenyao [n=kenyao@58.61.214.96] has quit ["My God! Gone..."] 03:46:24 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 03:51:48 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:03:46 Good morning. 04:03:51 morning, beach 04:08:28 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16:54 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:18:49 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:24:01 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-5254.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 04:29:46 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:31:23 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 04:31:47 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:37:57 spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-e19069864021f59d] has joined #lisp 04:38:36 -!- spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-e19069864021f59d] has left #lisp 04:39:38 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:43:32 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@212.116.219.91] has joined #lisp 04:44:09 snippy [n=snippyho@212.116.219.91] has joined #lisp 04:46:24 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@212.116.219.91] has quit [Client Quit] 04:47:20 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:51:06 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:55:36 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:57:17 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:10:20 spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 05:10:45 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:11:16 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:14:19 -!- xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:17:46 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@x250017.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:39 jestocost [n=cmell@y192024.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 05:26:21 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:34 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F226.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:50 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 05:38:59 -!- xah_lee [n=x_a_h@c-24-6-175-142.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:39:18 xah_lee [n=x_a_h@c-24-6-175-142.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:32 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:40:45 cads_ [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:08 -!- sbt [n=sbt@rrcs-208-125-96-78.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:45:13 How does one restart a SLIME REPL, clearing all bound variables, etc? 05:45:52 -!- xah_lee [n=x_a_h@c-24-6-175-142.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["banned in #emacs by johnsu01 (john sullivan)"] 05:50:12 _Trickster_ [i=Trickste@84.42.57.45] has joined #lisp 05:51:49 ,restart-inferior-lisp 05:52:08 beach: Oh, simple enough. Thanks. 05:55:07 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:57 hello everyone 05:59:06 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-4-107.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:19 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:01:27 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:02:32 -!- bsummersett_ [n=bsummers@c-98-209-19-237.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:06:41 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:08:15 -!- Guest32857 [n=yong@61.181.247.170] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:08:44 Jacob_ [n=yong@61.181.247.170] has joined #lisp 06:09:05 bsummersett [n=bsummers@c-98-209-19-237.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:12 -!- Jacob_ is now known as Guest45492 06:17:13 -!- bsummersett [n=bsummers@c-98-209-19-237.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:17:47 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:01 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:20:12 drewc: are you awake? 06:20:33 drewc: the anonymous rsync service at clnet is giving me timeouts 06:22:22 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [No route to host] 06:22:31 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:42 -!- _Trickster_ [i=Trickste@84.42.57.45] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:23:55 _Trickster_ [i=Trickste@84.42.57.45] has joined #lisp 06:24:02 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:26:53 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:27:11 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 06:27:12 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:24 -!- ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:32:09 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:33:38 -!- koning_r1bot [n=aap@e244075.upc-e.chello.nl] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:34:02 -!- cads_ [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:34:25 koning_robot [n=aap@e244075.upc-e.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 06:36:53 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-125-22-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:12 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:46:15 -!- certainty|work [n=david@alpha.d-coded.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:46:33 CLOBBER-IT 06:46:54 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:48:42 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 06:48:56 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F226.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:23 is there no require function in ECL 06:50:02 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 06:52:40 -!- theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:54:39 apropos may be useful. 07:00:16 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has joined #lisp 07:01:25 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 07:01:28 Good morning. 07:01:35 Good morning. 07:03:56 Zhivago: Out of curiosity, do you typically use Emacs for both C and Common Lisp? 07:04:31 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F226.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:31 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:08:25 spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-e41887bc1a198a08] has joined #lisp 07:08:39 is anyone here at all familiar with ECL? 07:08:49 -!- spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-e41887bc1a198a08] has left #lisp 07:10:08 thom_ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:49 -!- _Trickster_ [i=Trickste@84.42.57.45] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:15:47 antifuchs: i am awake... 07:16:47 isismelting: yes, i'm at all familiar with ECL 07:17:12 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:17:57 drewc: well, the anon rsync service has been timing out for me for the past few hours 07:18:11 (20 hours, to be precise) 07:18:49 antifuchs: well, that sucks 07:18:56 does (: 07:19:29 i just restarted rsyncd .. can you try again? 07:19:38 I need to fix my cvs->git gateway's lockfile structure (: 07:20:12 trying 07:20:32 (can't you just use ssh transport like normal people?) 07:21:10 I did that, once... entering ssh key passwords on reboot was getting annoying 07:21:15 bloody cl-net, if it's not trac breaking its ... well ... it's probably trac's fault. 07:21:20 ah; looks like it's working. 07:21:26 ASau` [n=user@host196-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:21:27 sweet! 07:21:28 heh 07:21:31 thanks a lot (: 07:21:32 drewc: is there a "require"-like feature in ECL? 07:22:09 isismelting: what do you mean "require"? It's not the same across implementations 07:22:26 isismelting: require is part of ANSI, and it's pretty much specified to be broken ... what is it that you want to do? 07:23:06 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:23:15 i have one file that needs to load up two utility files that are in the same directory when the first file itself is loaded 07:23:17 antifuchs: i'm glad restarting it worked, 'cause i would not have known what came next :D 07:23:35 isismelting: do you know about asdf?... 07:23:36 isismelting: use asdf. 07:23:37 the lines "(require "utility-file-one.lsp")" & for 2.lsp are at the top 07:23:51 isismelting: that's not going to work 07:23:54 the extension is .lisp 07:24:05 minion: tell isismelting about asdf 07:24:07 isismelting: have a look at asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 07:24:20 is asdf included with ECL? 07:24:53 according to its front page, yes 07:25:04 isismelting: maybe. 07:25:18 isismelting: why does it matter? 07:25:20 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.101] has joined #lisp 07:25:24 isismelting: The reason is that the filename is relative to *default-pathname-defaults*, presumably. You could try with an absolute path. 07:25:25 all right - thanks drewc & sykopomp (& minion) 07:25:48 tcr: i should have thought of that 07:25:50 clhs require 07:25:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_provid.htm 07:25:51 thanks 07:25:54 isismelting: really, though... use ASDF for systems. 07:26:23 sykopomp: i'll RTM for ASDF and figure out why i should be using it 07:26:30 thanks all 07:26:31 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 07:26:53 isismelting: search on Xach's blog 07:26:54 tcr: require is not specified enough to possibly mean anything. 07:27:12 drewc: Uh I think it's specified to be a conditional load when given pathnames 07:27:40 tcr: no, it's specified to error IIRC 07:27:48 I think that posting of Xach should be added to minion 07:28:22 tcr: minion is cliki .... 07:29:03 Xach should be added to specbot, I guess :P 07:29:23 tcr: if the first argument to REQUIRE is a pathname, the implementation must signal an error 07:29:44 *drewc* is adding nothing to nobody tonight! 07:30:08 that's the scotch getting mean in me :) 07:30:27 oh, sure, blame it on the poor innocent ethanol ;) 07:30:51 ianmcorvidae: i'm blaming the fusels... the ethanol was innocent 07:31:12 *drewc* is now getting pedantic 07:31:21 ah, I see :P 07:31:27 just now, eh 07:31:38 just this once :D 07:31:43 of course. 07:31:48 never happened before 07:31:53 never. 07:31:55 and never again :) 07:32:06 :P 07:32:06 always. 07:32:09 i mean never 07:32:17 haha 07:32:40 drewc: Where have you got that from? CLHS actually agrees with me, or I must be dense. 07:33:16 tcr: "Should signal an error of type type-error if module-name is not a string designator." 07:33:35 tcr: i'm half pissed, so it might be me talking past you. 07:34:08 well yeah it allows pathname namestrings 07:34:42 require module-name &optional pathname-list => implementation-dependent 07:34:53 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:14 module-name cannot be a pathname, unless pathnames are string-designators 07:35:23 i have to look that bit up 07:35:29 oh well yeah, I meant passing as second arg 07:35:31 does anyone know an easy way to figure out what linux distribution you're running via a terminal? 07:35:35 I just woke up man 07:35:44 (i asked in #linux with no working suggestion) 07:35:54 i'm half asleep! 07:36:01 isismelting, just do cat /proc/version 07:36:18 thank you - red hat. 07:36:20 isismelting: reliably and portably? impossible. 07:36:34 gosh, #linux gave me 10,000 solutions that did not work 07:36:45 isismelting, they're good for advocacy debates, about the only thing 07:36:49 the real linuxers don't hang there 07:37:08 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.247.179] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:37:16 *Quadrescence* eats appletizer. 07:37:27 *appletizer* feels holes developing :O 07:37:27 i think you are right about that: i only went there to try to avoid bothering with non-lisp questions here. 07:37:37 thanks appletizer 07:37:43 np 07:38:08 appletizer, isismelting : the pedant in me wants to rebut that solution 07:38:28 as luck would have it, the human in me would prefer nachos... 07:38:28 drewc, hehe go ahead, it's always helpful to hear a better suggestion 07:38:34 bummer :/ 07:38:37 fall asleep already! 07:39:25 appletizer: i don't have a better solution.. i just have to mention that the given solution is not portable or reliable :) 07:39:51 good morning 07:41:18 drewc, hehe out of interest, which distro does not support it though? 07:42:22 appletizer: drewnix-pedant 0.1 does not have a /proc at all. 07:42:49 haha 07:43:12 pfft 07:44:36 (fwiw, drewnix-practical has /etc/distro-version) 07:46:50 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F226.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:47:25 (does posix require /proc? my pedantic side might not actually know what he's talking about.) 07:47:35 posix proc 07:47:36 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for proc. 07:48:25 good morning 07:48:49 nope, /proc is an extension by most OSes (I don't think solaris has it 07:49:02 bsd used to come with it not pre-mounted 07:49:40 chalk one up for drewc-pedantic! 07:49:48 hehe :) 07:49:55 *appletizer* refuses to be drawn into another such advocacy 07:50:08 but just as an addendum, solaris supports procfs 07:50:13 sth0R [n=sth0R@123.146.70.199] has joined #lisp 07:50:33 lsb_release 07:50:38 and going even more tangential to the channel topical, what is opinions regarding IBM's potential acquisition of Sun in that respect? 07:50:56 osol/solaris 07:51:44 well, i care about as much as i care about lindsay lohan.... 07:52:13 lol :) fair enough 07:52:45 i read about the sun thing and her in that same newspaper. 07:53:13 neither made planet lisp :) 07:54:08 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:55:01 in uncertain times, planet lisp only reliable news source 07:55:17 (or something like that) 07:55:23 here's a question i'd like an answer to : should call/cc (or shift) return a value or escape? 07:55:43 or either/or, programmers choice 07:55:53 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:56:30 in CL, so assuming you must delimit it somewhere. 07:57:18 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 07:57:30 escape? 07:58:22 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:59:14 tcr: what does (with-call/cc (let ((val (call/cc (lambda (k) k)))) (print val))) return the first time it is run. 07:59:40 wait .. that's a poor example 08:00:33 shouldn't it return the value of the function it's called with? 08:00:33 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:00:39 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.131.25] has joined #lisp 08:01:13 dwave [n=ask@212251241158.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:01:49 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 08:01:49 tcr: well .. the real question i want an opinion on is: should call/cc return at all? 08:02:25 change (lambda (k) k) to (lambda (k) (setf *k* k)) and it matters 08:03:06 I thought the continuation has dynamic-extent so that would be a programmer error 08:04:24 no, not at all. the continuation has indefinite extent, otherwise it's not all that useful! 08:04:39 meerkat [n=meerkat@69.61.23.138] has joined #lisp 08:05:11 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251241158.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 08:06:50 in this : (with-call/cc (+ 1 (call/cc (lambda (k) (setf *k* k))))) 08:07:22 if call/cc returns, then that form is an error. 08:07:38 (can't add 1 to a continuation) 08:07:55 if call/cc escapes, then that form is ok, 08:08:08 and (funcall *k* 1) returns 2 08:09:13 -!- fufie_ [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:09:17 fufie__ [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:49 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:10:07 -!- isismelting is now known as isismelting_ 08:10:10 the non-escaping variety would be known as shift/reset to schemers.... 08:10:23 -!- isismelting_ is now known as isismelting 08:10:44 the escaping version would be call/cc if it wasn't delimited. 08:11:02 (by the with-call/cc) 08:11:42 I'm still struggling with the changes in slime HEAD. How can I make *SLIME Compilation* appear (like it did previously) when I C-c C-c something with an error? 08:11:53 i found all this mess to be very interesting lately.. but i'm amoung the few who care about continuations and CL. 08:12:45 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:12:59 do I have to add something to slime-setup? 08:14:36 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:02 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:17:20 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:20:51 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 08:21:39 -!- poolio [n=poolio@bz.bzflag.bz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:21:43 poolio [n=poolio@bz.bzflag.bz] has joined #lisp 08:23:48 -!- snippy [n=snippyho@212.116.219.91] has left #lisp 08:24:36 mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca98.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:24:57 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:28:01 echo-area [n=xgp@119.42.238.68] has joined #lisp 08:30:28 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:31:28 -!- meerkat [n=meerkat@69.61.23.138] has quit ["BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it."] 08:34:00 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 08:34:08 you guys are no fun... i'll give you an easy one : what does (funcall (let ((x 2)) (lambda () x))) return, without knowing anything about what might have been defvar'd? 08:34:51 (the two questions are unrelated, but the former makes _more_ sense to me) 08:36:04 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:36:38 is this what entries for obfuscated lisp contest entires might look like, drewc? 08:37:16 nooper: no. 08:37:18 nooper: no, those would have a lot more FORMAT ;) 08:37:21 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-common-lisp-114.html THIS is what they look like? 08:37:25 drewc: hah 08:37:28 hehe 08:38:04 segv [n=mb@p4FC1F56A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:14 i'm just airing some laundry... *earmuffs* are not the best solution. 08:40:17 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:20 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:41:06 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:41:42 cue my 'I want a lisp with real lists' rant, and then cue my 'no, clojure is not it' rant. 08:42:16 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-5254.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:42:21 drewc: what is it about lisp lists that bothers you? 08:43:05 sykopomp: (type-of (list 1 2 3)) 08:43:28 so? 08:43:37 (type-of (cons 1 2)) 08:43:57 yes, but I don't really get where this becomes a major issue. 08:44:06 proper-list-p 08:44:28 drewc: what would real lists be like, without soon swimming up to the ears in static typing? 08:44:43 drewc: isn't that in alexandria? 08:45:46 sykopomp: O(n) 08:45:53 ah 08:46:09 is choosing between an alist or a plist based on preference or would there be a reason to use the one instead of the other 08:46:29 cmm: (make-instance 'list ....) 08:46:32 dls [n=dls@adsl-63-199-242-27.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:01 Harag: if you have to ask, you don't care. 08:47:19 drewc: ah. I thought you'd want something not trivially doable in the usual library way 08:47:22 I like alists better. 08:47:58 cmm: nay, i want real lists, not (deftype list (or null cons)) 08:48:29 cmm: i have a reasonable use case too :) 08:48:51 Kickaha [n=jadawin@bl11-41-196.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:48:56 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:49:13 i'm just saying, a cons is not really a list. 08:49:32 A cons is a link. 08:49:42 It depends on if you want a list or a linked-list. 08:49:50 -!- Guest45492 [n=yong@61.181.247.170] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:49:53 a cons is a node 08:50:02 (in a linked list) 08:50:15 drewc: the question is then should I care 08:50:39 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 08:51:12 hello 08:51:20 Harag: they're not that different, and I personally prefer going straight to hash table for most of my associative collection needs :) 08:51:35 Harag: probably not... you just want a mapping from a symbol to a value? ie: (lookup :key container) => value 08:51:48 yeah 08:51:48 The nodes in a linked list are links. :) 08:51:58 Like the links of a chain. 08:52:04 Zhivago: but what is the list? 08:52:13 the things I might ever use alists/plists are trivial enough that the decision between both is pretty unimportant. 08:52:21 just a bunch of links? 08:52:33 That's what a linked list is -- a chain of links. 08:53:10 Personally, I'd rather they called 'linked lists' 'chains' instead, which would have removed a lot of confusion. 08:53:52 Since linked lists and lists are radically different data structures. 08:54:09 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:54:20 Zhivago: then we'd all be coding in CHAIP :) 08:54:24 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:55:49 Zhivago: a chain is symmetrical though, a linked list is not 08:56:02 (singly-linked, lisp list) 08:56:06 chain is possibly a good name for a doubly-linked list? 08:56:14 Not all chains are symmetric. 08:56:47 And we have no problems with terms like 'chains of association', which definitely aren't. 08:57:09 And that brings us back to a cons-block fundamentally being an association between two objects. 08:57:20 clearly, lisp lists most closely resemble barrels-of-monkeys 08:57:51 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:58:26 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:41 indeed.. but we end up with messes like (type-of (make-list *)) 09:00:06 if * is 0 vs *>0 09:00:14 i like CONS 09:00:29 but a chain of conses does not a list make 09:00:37 Well, that will always produce something of type list. :) 09:00:59 :D 09:01:03 drewc: A chain of conses can certainly implement a list. If you want more than that you'll need to specify what a list is. 09:02:03 Zhivago: there are lots of ways to implement a list... 09:02:24 CL just happens to leak it's version 09:02:24 Sure, so what? 09:02:36 it's he says 09:02:42 No, CL just happens to provide cons blocks which allow for a natural list implementations. 09:02:50 i hope you're not going to listen to a guy who said it's 09:03:08 It happens to call those lists, and that's the main crime. 09:03:52 So, set up your own data-structure and use that, and then you can start whinging about CL's lousy genericity. 09:04:33 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:06:02 ha.. it's wanting to specialize on LIST and/or CONS that got me here in the first place. 09:06:13 Well, then you're confused. 09:06:18 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:06:19 Specialization is on classes, not types. 09:06:41 those words _could_ mean the same thing 09:06:55 But, they don't. 09:07:11 A bit like "hedgehog" and "toaster". 09:08:00 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 09:08:24 heh 09:09:18 i'm glad it's me that's confused and not CL, otherwise we'd be in real trouble here. 09:15:36 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:20 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:19:41 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 09:24:46 I put slime-compiler-notes-tree in my slime-setup, but the compiler notes don't appear when C-c C-c ing. 09:27:54 -!- sth0R [n=sth0R@123.146.70.199] has quit [""] 09:29:51 can I check if eval will be sucessful before eval list ? I have loop 0 to 10 and I'd like to ignore division-by-zero. 09:30:46 *kami-* interprets the silence as: 'we all have no problems with *SLIME Compilation*' 09:32:22 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:32:30 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:32:37 clhs ignore-errors 09:32:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_ignore.htm 09:32:45 MrSpec: you may use that. 09:32:58 O thx :D 09:33:06 (or (ignore-errors (do-something-but-return-nil)) result-by-default) 09:33:20 (or you can use the second value returned by ignore-errors) 09:34:15 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA152.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:34:17 how can I use second value ? it is returned as list ? 09:35:56 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 09:36:17 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 09:36:32 (multiple-value-bind (res err) (ignore-errors form) (if err default-value res)) 09:36:52 Now, of course if you expect several values in normal cases: 09:37:47 (multiple-value-bind (results err) (ignore-errors (multiple-value-list multi-valued-form)) (if err (values default-value) (values-list results))) 09:38:00 ok, thanks matimago :-] 09:39:17 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:20 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 09:40:32 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 09:40:44 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:41:17 elderK [n=zk@122-57-244-79.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:41:23 Hey people! 09:41:46 I was wondering where I could find some information on the 'right mindset' to use when programming with Lisp? 09:42:02 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Client Quit] 09:42:10 Like generally with C, you just... create the structures, the functions to accomplish whatever yo uneed done. 09:42:11 elderK: in a good book 09:42:14 elderK: read paip, pcl. 09:42:24 paip? 09:42:29 minion: paip 09:42:30 paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 09:42:57 pcl is probably a better place to start 09:42:58 elderK: i like "on lisp", too, but that needs to be read as prose, not as bible. 09:43:00 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 09:43:01 minion: pcl 09:43:02 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 09:43:03 Any chance it's available in PDF? 09:43:14 not legally 09:43:22 elderK: this is not the right channel to trade warez in. 09:43:34 h4ns, I wasn't implying that. 09:43:40 I wasn't aware the book was non-free. 09:43:41 :) 09:44:06 It's just, I'm unsure how, other than reading, to get some practical experience with Lisp, that doesn't ... scar me from playing with it in the future. 09:44:16 Like, small projects for example, things I can feel gleeful about. And learn as Igo, you know? 09:44:22 elderK: you could write a program 09:44:30 Like, when I first started learning C ages ago - I wrote a small 2d side scroller. 09:44:47 pcl is available in PDF format 09:44:53 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-69-123.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:44:57 but, something tells me that the standard 'create the structures, etc, etc, etc' isn't perhap sthe right way to approach lisp. 09:44:58 after all, 09:45:00 lisp is lisp :) 09:45:02 not C 09:45:04 oh, said allready 09:45:04 elderK: do the same thing with lisp, and have good literature at your disposal to peek at the "lisp way" of doing things. 09:45:09 so, I thought, come and talk to you guys :0 09:45:24 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:45:25 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:45:25 heys jdz, thanks anyway man :) 09:45:36 reading a book is just so much better use of your time :) 09:45:58 elderK: and please send sentences to this channel, not thought fragments. 09:45:59 Well, aye. I've been reading many things on Lisp lately, more for fun than anything. 09:46:08 Sorry h4ns. 09:46:14 hi i am looking for a function that will create a string from an s-expression like (a b c) => "(a b c)" 1 => "1" 09:46:43 make-string, perhaps? 09:46:45 klausi: print-to-string and friends? 09:46:59 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:14 klausi: (princ-to-string '(1 2 3)) 09:47:31 h4ns, I've been reading through Successful Lisp? 09:47:33 klausi: consider with-output-to-string, too. 09:47:38 cmm: that goes to you too, :) 09:48:33 elderK: if you're into 2d side scrollers and demo'ish things, check out cl-opengl 09:48:34 elderK: but of course. only I waste my time here by concious choice and with full awareness of the alternatives :) 09:49:31 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:49:41 elderK: another good way to pick up the mindset (assuming you already know the basics) is to read good code by others. Edi Weitz's stuff (cl-pcre, for example) is good reading 09:50:29 what exactly does coerce do, and why couldn't it turn (a b c) into "(a b c)" ? 09:50:29 aye, cmm, I was looking to find some simple 2d games in lisp, for fun 09:50:33 or maybe a mud or something 09:51:02 i try all of theses thanks 09:51:43 because I dont think im ready to oogle cl-pcre just yet, mayhap :) 09:51:58 but, I'm finding Lisp certainly interesting, at least :) 09:53:44 ampleyfly: because it wants to coerce an object of one sequence type into an object of another sequence type, and strings can only contain characters 09:54:28 ampleyfly: so it's work if you tried coercing (#\a #\b #\c) to string, though the resulting string would be "abc" 09:54:42 ah, ok 09:55:29 must remember that let binds defined names a tthe /smae/ time. 09:55:31 not in order. 09:55:33 let* does that, yeah? 09:56:29 -!- dls [n=dls@adsl-63-199-242-27.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 09:56:30 at least the ones on the bottom can use the ones on the top =) 09:56:38 (let 09:56:40 uh 09:57:03 (let* ((a 1) (b a)) ... 09:57:32 elderK: CLISP (http://www.gnu.org/software/clisp/impnotes/screen.html) has some accessable screen manipulation that should keep you entertained for a few hours. There's also Gamelib (http://common-lisp.net/project/gamelib/) that has been used for simple games by its author. 09:57:37 the technical terms you are grappling for are "parallel binding" and "sequental binding" 09:57:50 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:57:52 ah, thank you cmm :) 09:57:55 and aerique :) 09:58:44 cmm: is it certain that the bindings are done in that exact order? if the functions that give the values for the bindings have side effects.. 10:00:01 ampleyfly: then what? 10:00:07 ampleyfly: you mean in LET*? is, the order is guaranteed 10:00:17 god, can't type today 10:00:19 ok, cool 10:01:20 H4ns: if the first does (setq *shutdown* t) and the other does (if (not *shutdown*) (do-nice-things)) 10:01:34 the order matters 10:01:54 ampleyfly: the order matters, but it is guaranteed. it is not "random" or anything like that. 10:02:05 which is what I asked 10:04:50 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 10:05:49 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA290.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:06:07 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA152.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:06:09 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 10:07:16 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:01 -!- antgreen [n=green@12.50.146.130] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:08:38 -!- crink [n=crink@210.110.159.199] has left #lisp 10:10:53 -!- CrEddy [n=carpaine@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:11:06 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:15:11 CrEddy [n=adelarth@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 10:21:21 Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 10:24:50 -!- Kickaha [n=jadawin@bl11-41-196.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["leaving"] 10:29:11 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:29:19 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:29:38 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:22 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 10:33:11 sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has joined #lisp 10:33:32 so where can I find the semantics for enclosing (combinations of) defmacros and defuns in lexical closures? 10:34:07 I ask because I just tried a fairly complex bit of code that enclosed two macros in a closure, and it Just Worked. Which was a nice feeling :} 10:34:34 *fairly complex for me 10:34:44 is it possible to change '(a ab b) into '(2 23 3) [a=2, b=3] ? subst doesnt for for something like this :( 10:34:53 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:35:19 MrSpec: ab is unrelated to a or b, to begin with 10:35:33 MrSpec: if that is what you require, you'll need to write code to do that for you. 10:36:02 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-20-9.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:36:04 MrSpec: I'd recommend either using sublists or strings 10:36:10 hmm how should I start ? could you give me names of useful functions ? 10:36:15 ah ok. 10:36:58 MrSpec: if the latters matter, i'd use strings instead of symbols, too. 10:37:05 letters even 10:37:06 maybe I'll show the problem. I'm not sure if i'm thinking right: 10:37:16 (read-from-string (substitute #\2 #\A (princ-to-string '(a ab b)))) 10:38:04 MrSpec: the problem is why you have AB when you should have something else? 10:39:32 from input I have to read something like: ab + cd = d, and change it into: (= (+ ab cd) d) or to : (= (+ (+ (* 10 a) b) (+ (* 10 c)) d) to solve te equation 10:39:51 (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (substitute #\2 #\a (substitute #\3 #\b x))) '("a" "ab" "b")) for instance works. 10:39:59 MrSpec: read ab as "a * b", to begin with. 10:39:59 MrSpec: It's even worse than what we thought! 10:40:23 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:40:34 it is program to write in Icon, I didint think it is so hard to read it in lisp 10:41:03 matimago, och :\ 10:41:50 MrSpec: it is not hard to write in lisp, but you'll need to properly design it before you can write it in any language. reading "ab" from the input as symbol 'ab is plain wrong. 10:41:51 H4ns, ok, to read it in this way I should use this sublist function too ? 10:42:03 ah ok. 10:42:21 You should parse ab and build the corresponding data structure. 10:42:22 so I was wrong. 10:43:02 ok, but atm I dont have an idea what functions could be usefull. i didnt read about similar problem in any book :S 10:43:20 You may use directly s-exps, but this is not necesarily the easiest data structure to deal with. You may also use CLOS objects. After all, OO was invented to _represent_ knowledge. 10:43:38 MrSpec: before thinking about functions, you should design the data structure that represents your parsed input. 10:43:53 I though it will be list 10:44:14 actually, cmm, I wouldn't mind seeing some lisp source - if you wouldn't mind pastebinning some of yours? 10:44:14 becouse I have functions to solve equations represented by list 10:44:18 yea, I'd just use a list/tree here as well 10:44:43 sohum: Show your code 10:44:44 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:44:44 MrSpec: consider ignoring all white space that occurs in the input. 10:45:09 tcr: not something I've written, just eyeballing the problem as he's presented it 10:45:18 H4ns, yeah I should ignore them. 10:45:35 sohum: Nah I mean your lexical closure thingie 10:46:07 MrSpec: this means that you need to write a scanner and a parser to build the syntactic tree corresponding to the sentences you must read. 10:46:11 tcr: oh. comin' up. 10:46:37 tcr: though it works, I just wanted to know the semantics of how macros and functions interact in closures 10:46:46 sounds 'nice' ;) 10:47:13 sohum: doesn't mean that it's portable 10:47:29 tcr: ...oh. hm. 10:47:37 pjb pasted "MrSpec example parsing numbers as s-exps." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77571 10:48:07 sohum: Macros are either not stored in closures as they were expanded before, or their definition is stored in the lexical environment that the closures closes over 10:48:08 wow thx pjb 10:48:52 sohum pasted "macros in closures" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77572 10:49:12 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-234-40.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 10:49:44 so using this function I can iterate over symbols in line and if it is not (+,-,/,*) do parse-number and add it to list ? 10:50:05 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:41 MrSpec: more or less. You won't "add it to list". You will be building a parse tree. 10:52:10 sohum: yes, that works. But you cannot use the two macros in the same file as their definition lays in 10:52:17 *rsynnott* is learning to loathe windows and its horrible command prompt 10:52:29 (trying to get commonqt going, yay!) 10:52:45 tcr: why not? 10:52:51 rsynnott: use cygwin 10:52:59 rsynnott use cygwin, it has a nice bash shell 10:53:10 powershell supposedly redeems some of that legacy 10:53:17 qt is built with mingw, and thus mingw must be used, or it will explode 10:53:18 sohum: The macro definitions are not toplevel forms if inside a LET 10:53:38 rsynnott: cygwin works fine even with mingw 10:53:40 mingw has its own shell, which helpfully comes with a broken version of make which upsets everyone 10:53:46 ok, but using what function I can "stop" on first space, or after all spaces between symbols ? 10:53:52 mingw has a msys shell, rsynnott .. or used to have .. and what H4ns said is true also 10:53:56 H4ns: really? The docs lead me to believe it wouldn't, but I may have misread 10:54:06 to ignore few spaces between 10:54:07 MrSpec: you need to learn about scanners and parser. 10:54:10 tcr: does that matter? I thought the defXXXX functions assigned a global variable to whatever you put in them 10:54:19 matimago, what would you recommend ? 10:54:21 rsynnott: you've been mislead. i have created mingw executables using cygwin just fine. 10:54:44 ah, cool 10:54:49 may give that a go, then 10:54:50 sohum: Yes at runtime, not necessarily at compile-time. DEFMACRO does on compile-time, DEFUN for instance not. 10:54:59 rsynnott: mingw is also packaged with cygwin 10:55:10 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:55:16 rather, cygwin has a package for it 10:56:23 I was wondering if anyone could give me some help on understanding trees, written as lists? 10:56:37 elderK: did you read a book on it? 10:56:38 Right now, I'm simply writing some trees out - and forcing my mind to grok them as lists. 10:56:53 Since really, trees are just... glorified linked lists with some extra data. 10:56:55 tcr: so these macros that are non-top-level defined will be assigned to a global variable during compilation, and then any calls to those macros will be expanded, right? 10:57:11 H4ns, how do you mean? I wasn't aware there was a book on trees as lists :) 10:57:37 elderK: there are numerous books on lisp which describe what a cons cell is and how cons cells can be viewed as trees or as lists 10:58:03 elderK: or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cons 10:58:17 h4ns: Would something such as this be correct? (4 (2 (1) (3)) (6 (5) (7))) 10:58:30 elderK: what do you mean by "correct"? 10:58:35 moment :) 10:58:48 a tree can be represented as nested lists 10:59:08 sohum: non-toplevel defmacro forms will establish a macro binding in the global runtime environment 10:59:35 sohum: but no such binding in the compiler's evaluation environment (where macroexpansion occurs in) 10:59:47 H4ns: http://www.nopaste.com/p/anJp1mal2 11:00:05 And aye, I'm just trying to get my mind to read it when displayed as such, spaceball. 11:00:08 er, spacebat. 11:00:19 that's a binary tree? 11:00:28 elderK: that is a possible representation, but i'd read the wikipedia page to learn what the idiomatic representation is. 11:00:31 binary search 11:00:44 -!- lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:00:45 tcr: what's the point of a macro binding in the global runtime environment if macroexpansion doesn't look there? 11:01:31 sohum: You can access at runtime, via macro-function. Think of the REPL 11:01:57 H4ns: Well, aye - but in the example they provide for (cons (cons 1 2) (cons 3 4)) 11:02:16 elderK: and? did you try that in your repl? 11:02:22 Yes 11:02:30 sohum: Usually DEF... forms do _not_ store the definition at compilation time, you have to use an explicit eval-when for that. DEFMACRO is an exception because the point of macros is to get expanded at compile-time 11:02:31 It's just, the subtrees marked with * 11:02:49 MrSpec: have a look at the first slides at http://www.cs.utsa.edu/~qingyi/cs5363/slides/index.htm 11:02:55 it has values only in leaves 11:03:07 so, not what you want 11:03:08 tcr: aaah. so the fact that the call to those macros later in the same file works is implementation specific? 11:03:14 Oh, I see now. 11:03:17 Sorry, I misread that part. 11:03:20 *elderK* slaps forehead 11:03:52 sohum: if the defmacro forms are not toplevel, yes 11:04:38 tcr: right. any way to lexically close toplevel forms? 11:04:53 no 11:05:14 toplevel form == form in null lexical environment 11:05:24 modulo declarations 11:05:37 *nod* 11:05:44 that's a tad annoying. 11:05:45 how was ILC in the end? 11:06:02 sohum: You can use EVAL-WHEN around it 11:06:14 that its point 11:06:38 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279775610.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:07:11 minion: tell me about eval-when 11:07:12 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``eval-when''. 11:07:21 clhs eval-when 11:07:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm 11:07:29 (ha, it /does/ recognise me) 11:07:41 thankee stassats 11:08:15 lispworks could make a fortune by putting ads on that thing, no doubt 11:08:56 spose I should just play with Lisp and see what I learn :) 11:09:10 (oh, maybe not; it has a surprrisingly low alexa rank) 11:10:28 how many of clhs readers use their tool? 11:10:30 sohum: Why do you want to lexically close a top-level form? 11:10:59 Zhivago: http://paste.lisp.org/display/77572 11:12:06 tcr: so I take it enclosing that with :compile-toplevel and :load-toplevel will do the trick? 11:12:40 tcr annotated #77572 "global variable instead of closing over the lexenv" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77572#1 11:12:54 g'day 11:12:56 Why isn't total-list a dynamic variable? 11:13:30 tcr: well, yes, but then it's accessible to all macros, which is slightly unclean 11:13:46 -!- hugod_ [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440009.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:13:52 bbe [n=bbe@221.226.130.44] has joined #lisp 11:14:20 Well, I think my Lisp lecture this morning went OK. 11:14:53 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:54 sohum: Not unclean at all. 11:14:56 sohum: Um, do you expect total-list to be the same thing at compile-time and run-time? 11:15:20 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 11:15:20 sohum: You'd need :execute, too. But you wouldn't be able to use DEFMAIN at runtime anymore 11:15:30 Zhivago: should it be? I don't need to shadow it ever. And no, I just need it to be the consistent at compile time 11:15:49 sohum: At which compile-time? 11:16:11 sohum: The compile-time for file A, or the compile-time for file B? 11:17:03 Zhivago: um. at macro-expansion time? so the compile time for just that file, I'd assume if the macros were invoked from outside that file a new binding might be created 11:17:22 hyperboreean [n=none@89.18.3.66] has joined #lisp 11:17:30 sohum: What if both file A and file B use defmodule? 11:17:37 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Client Quit] 11:17:48 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@y192024.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18:12 tcr: ok, now you're confusing me. how is it not unclean if macros which have no need for it have access to it? 11:18:28 sohum: I think that there is a conceptual error in your thinking about compilation here. 11:18:46 sohum: They just do not access it? Putting stuff in lexical closures is a nightmare for debugging 11:18:58 I'm finding Ctl2 to be highly useful :) 11:19:07 Zhivago: I'd assume the semantics there would be a distinct variable for each act of compilation 11:19:22 sohum: So, what's the point of total-list? 11:19:49 sohum: Notice that the granularity of compilation in CL is per-file only, unfortunately. 11:19:58 Zhivago: because the defmodules in one file can store some state that the defmain in that file can use? 11:20:11 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:12 tcr: which is fine! it's exactly what I'd assume, so. 11:20:20 jestocost [n=cmell@x250041.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:20:33 sohum: So, total-list should be the list of modules defined in the same file? 11:20:57 Just use what I pasted. It won't break under your hood unexpectedly. 11:21:19 (so the paste is lacking a comma before module-name) 11:21:23 Zhivago: .... I didn't think of that. hurm. 11:21:24 s/so/though/ 11:21:58 tcr: didn't you say it'd break defmain? 11:22:20 sohum: If you go the lexical route 11:22:29 tcr: right. 11:22:56 Don't be afraid of dynamic variables :) 11:23:11 -!- rswarbrick [n=user@cpc1-cove3-0-0-cust907.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:23:32 If you are worried about collisions, stick them in a separate package. 11:23:47 tcr annotated #77572 "for sohum" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77572#2 11:24:04 sohum: C-c C-k that 11:24:16 elias` [n=me@resnet-nat-092.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:24:27 sohum: You'll see that 1, 2 is printed at compile-time, and then at load-time. 11:24:39 sohum: the point is that the lexical binding at compile-time and load-time are _different_ 11:25:09 hyperboreean [n=none@89.18.3.66] has joined #lisp 11:25:22 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Client Quit] 11:25:49 tcr: ok, so do macros get expanded at loadtime, or just compile time? 11:26:01 implementation-dependent 11:26:38 right. 11:26:38 -!- klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-69-123.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:26:44 if you use compile-file they're expanded at compile-time 11:27:01 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@93-40-131-94.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:27:27 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:27:45 tcr: I'm not seeing breakage scenarios though - worst case scenario, the macro expands twice into fresh bindings and redefines the package 11:28:09 hello 11:28:17 tcr: but I suppose I shouldn't depend on that, because that's not a defined part of the spec or somesuch 11:28:35 sohum: Think about multiple files more. 11:28:39 sohum: it'll break if you try to define several modules across file boundaries 11:29:06 Dynamic variables provide linkage between lexical environments. 11:29:12 sohum: it'll break on redefinition of defmodule and defmain 11:29:38 Since that's what you have here, those are what you should use. 11:29:47 well redefinition of defmain, not so much of defmodule 11:30:16 I suggest that you add a 'project' component and group your packages under that, or some-such. 11:30:31 (This could be set up by defmain) 11:30:36 *nod*. I think I've understood now 11:30:47 that makes a twisted sort of sense ;) 11:30:50 s/packages/modules/ 11:31:05 sohum: It's a complicated mess. 11:31:07 Then you could generate a dynamic like *project-foo-modules* 11:31:53 or better sohail-project-thingy:*project-foo-modules* 11:32:40 sohum: Fare's xcvb is pretty strict environment-wise so such errors will be caught earlier 11:32:50 hahaah, this is quite fun :) 11:33:13 that part requires modifications on the implementations though 11:33:18 tcr: xcvb? 11:33:30 Fare's asdf replacement. 11:33:32 his asdf replacement 11:33:35 ah 11:35:07 hm 11:35:11 I wonder how I can make nil appear as 0 11:35:29 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A66C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:35:39 by imagination 11:35:52 (defmethod print-object ((object (eql nil)) stream) (princ 0)) 11:35:58 or something like that. 11:36:06 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:36:25 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 11:36:29 (I am sure I saw this out of context, so I am probably missing something) 11:36:43 aye, but I would only want it for a few functions. so, it's probably smarter to get rid of the C thinking of, say, indice = x > y; 11:36:47 hello spiaggia 11:36:51 hey mvilleneuve 11:37:15 elderK: (or foo 0) 11:37:31 if foo is nil that will evaluate to 0, otherwise the value of foo is used 11:38:30 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:39:34 Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has joined #lisp 11:40:29 hello friends 11:40:35 hi 11:40:46 can you suggest a hairy macro, maybe from deep in the old guts of sbcl? 11:40:57 i'd like something that looks frightening 11:41:16 there's a triple-backquote in mcclim somewhere 11:41:55 ./code/bit-bash.lisp ? 11:42:13 what kind of hairiness? Huge or many-levels? 11:42:56 cmm pasted "something frightening" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77574 11:42:59 Xof: many levels, i think. something opaque. 11:43:18 Xach: the paste frightening enough? 11:43:29 there's invoke-fast-method-call/more in src/pcl/boot.lisp 11:43:36 (I'm not even sure anymore that it is completely correct) 11:44:19 macrolet frob in mcclim/panes.lisp is quite good 11:44:20 oh, probably not up to the sbcl-internal standards of frightening 11:44:41 defmacro defgeneric* in mcclim/setf-star.lisp 11:44:55 `(progn 11:44:55 (defsetf ,setf-name (,place) ,args 11:44:55 `(funcall #',',gf ,,@args ,,place)) 11:44:55 (defgeneric ,gf ,lambda-list ,@options)))) 11:44:57 fits on one slide 11:45:32 thanks! 11:45:59 ooh, good one 11:47:50 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:47:59 heh 11:48:11 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:12 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 11:48:20 I think that's getting well into showing off territory 11:48:26 (the macro) 11:50:04 how's ILC going? 11:50:34 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:51:31 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:52:09 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:02 nice. i'm trying to put together my lightning talk at the last-ish minute. 11:54:31 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 11:54:34 that's the way it should be 11:55:05 what will it be about 11:55:41 tombom: demo a couple wigflip toys, talk about the tech. as much as i can in 5 minutes anyway. 11:55:49 ok 11:56:02 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 11:56:30 show funny pictures also 11:56:38 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B6B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:56:50 "macros, you are doing it wrong"? 11:58:00 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:03 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 12:00:27 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:00:46 Guys, if I pass in a variable to a function, say (some-func *some-var) 12:00:59 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 12:01:10 how can I change waht the variable stores? And, so that the updated value (update dinside the function), is persitent - when the function exits - in the variabl epassed into that function? 12:01:25 basically, how I can store data at the place the symbol passed in, references? 12:01:25 elderK: you don't pass variables "into" functions, you pass only values 12:01:39 elderK: it would really be good if you could read up on the basics first. 12:01:45 But I can quote a symbol so that it isn't evaluated as a value, right? 12:02:16 elderK: You can set the symbol-value of a symbol. It's not something that's usually done though. 12:02:19 elderK: you can manipulate symbols if you want, yes 12:02:43 elderK: symbol is not the same concept as a variable, though 12:02:44 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:02:57 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:03:55 elderK: normally you just return all the information (including changed states) that you want the calling code to have 12:04:54 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:00 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B6B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:06:43 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:07:08 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 12:08:04 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@212.116.219.91] has joined #lisp 12:10:56 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:14:09 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:17:04 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:04 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:17:10 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:12 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 12:19:22 Greetings! 12:21:44 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1F56A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:47 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 12:28:45 *lnostdal* misses a ":before style version" of sb-ext:finalize 12:29:17 you and everyone else (: 12:29:30 no before-gc-hooks, so no before-finalization things 12:29:49 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-151-22.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 12:29:57 hi #lisp community 12:30:05 that's not really the reason, though 12:30:39 a finalizer that can refer to the object could end up resurrecting other objects 12:30:51 which has completely different issues than before-gc-hooks 12:32:49 lichtblau once posted an implementation of java-style finalizers to sbcl-devel 12:32:55 I have no idea what the implications were 12:33:32 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 12:33:35 were java style finalizers the ones where a finalizer for on object could end up being run multiple times? 12:34:19 I don't know java 12:35:22 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:12:14 +0100 12:35:35 > attached is an attempt to implement Java-style finalization. 12:35:35 > Any review by someone who knows the GC would be nice! 12:35:40 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 12:35:49 I have an awesome memory for patches that I've ignored for five years 12:40:07 "that patch has been ignored for half sbcl's lifetime" 12:41:23 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:41:49 segv [n=mb@p4FC1F56A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:04 dlowe [n=dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has joined #lisp 12:44:43 here's the thread; http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/2652 12:45:22 ..it mentions some links to how it works in a java context 12:53:55 -!- flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has quit ["leaving"] 12:57:01 flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has joined #lisp 12:57:03 good morning 13:05:39 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 13:06:44 hello wingo-tp 13:08:06 howdy spiaggia 13:09:32 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:04 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:11:37 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:12:37 ILC backchannel at #ilc2009 13:12:43 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 13:13:28 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 13:13:59 LostMonarch [n=roby@host179-131-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:14:30 jfm3 [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:17:48 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:19:21 the mistake in that mail (and patch) is the "twice". in a chain of N semi-weak references pointing to each other, you'll need to rescan newspace for resurrected objects N times, not just two times. 13:19:51 ISTR that just looping worked, but I also recall not really testing the patch extensively. don't know where the updated patch with the loop is. 13:20:24 bsummersett [n=bsummers@c-98-209-19-237.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:52 Also, I'm told that I just missed the best paper of the conference. 13:21:30 lichtblau: which one was that? 13:22:00 Shrobe's paper? I only caught the last five minutes, but it didn't seem that amazing. 13:22:45 Shrobe's, yes. Will have to check the proceedings. 13:22:46 Then again, what the hell do I know? 13:23:14 Yeah, he was saying "that's in the paper" a few times during q&a, so I'd imagine everything interesting is also in the proceedings. 13:23:25 demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig112.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:23:32 i liked how he applied what he was doing to tagged hardware 13:23:51 kreuter [i=kreuter@dhcp-18-111-6-190.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:25:10 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:25:41 _way [n=root@77.70.137.32] has joined #lisp 13:25:51 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:04 -!- _way [n=root@77.70.137.32] has left #lisp 13:26:40 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:27:39 jfm3` [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:27:50 -!- jfm3 [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:11 Instead of messing up with perl and common lisp, I have written a small wrapper shell script over htmlize.el. Just one enhancement left: CLHS symbol recognition support. 13:28:29 -!- wormilwork [n=Miranda@adsl-070-155-056-058.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:43 vy: excellent 13:30:32 BTW, I also managed to extract syntax highligting part from pastelisp package and remove all of its dependencies quite easily. (I juse needed CL-WHO:ESCAPE-SGTRING instead of arnesi's ENCODE-HTML.) But I find it hard to create and maintain a separate ASDF package for it. 13:30:41 Beket [n=stathis@adsl-244-091.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 13:30:48 KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:32:09 spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.241] has joined #lisp 13:32:19 -!- spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.241] has quit [Client Quit] 13:33:07 -!- bsummersett [n=bsummers@c-98-209-19-237.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:35:30 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:50 is there a tarball download for the sbcl sources such as sbcl-latest.tar.bz2 that will always grab the latest release available anywhere? snooping around the sourceforge site didn't turn up anything 13:37:03 -!- KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:37:05 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087E099.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:46 tritchey: There isn't, except personal repositories by individuals. 13:38:51 tritchey: http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl.git?a=snapshot;h=HEAD;sf=tgz 13:39:10 lispm [n=joswig@e177153213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:26 Oh, you meant the SBCL *sources*. 13:41:04 But isn't that the HEAD revision, not the latest release. Anyway, if it's ok for you... 13:41:11 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:41:55 oh, right 13:41:58 that will probably work - at least HEAD has always been pretty stable in the past (waits for any tittering in the audience) 13:41:59 I misread that 13:42:13 approximately as stable as any release, anyway 13:42:22 I usually run master/head 13:42:24 it's not like we have hordes of eager testers actually testing things when we say "right, please test" 13:43:37 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:38 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:43:42 -!- jfm3` is now known as jfm3 13:43:44 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:45:11 Is it possible to highlight style warnings in code? 13:45:26 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-103-91.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:45:39 spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.241] has joined #lisp 13:45:42 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:50 -!- spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.241] has left #lisp 13:46:45 -!- jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [] 13:47:57 Quadrescence: slime already does that, IIRC 13:48:42 fe[nl]ix: Hm, maybe I'm just not seeing them. 13:49:30 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 13:51:17 'morning 13:51:34 hello Xach 13:52:29 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:53:32 damn, Cambridge MA is dry in the winter. 13:53:40 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [Client Quit] 13:55:35 This is springtime :( 13:56:06 wgl: hello 13:56:08 The deluge has not yet begun, is all 13:57:14 KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:57:46 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1F56A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:50 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D54E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:16 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:00:21 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-103-91.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:56 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 14:04:20 Is there a simple way to make the *SLIME Compiler-Notes* not be so intrusive? It always resizes the buffer, and always chooses either the REPL or file buffer to change from. 14:04:21 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:04:37 it's just trying to be helpful! 14:04:38 poor thing 14:04:44 that's a general problem with emacs 14:05:08 it's not so bad if you're not otherwise using split windows 14:05:13 it's EXTREMELY annoying if you are 14:05:45 rsynnott: Yeah, I am using split windows. :{ Normally a C-x 1. 14:05:51 spradnyesh3 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-60e2820ce4eff6da] has joined #lisp 14:06:12 it's even worse if you vertically split 14:06:12 -!- spradnyesh3 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-60e2820ce4eff6da] has left #lisp 14:06:49 Maybe it's just very intrusive because I am not a master at emacs keybindings and moving my way through different buffers. 14:07:03 rsynnott: I work around it by using escreen and keeping that in another. less annoying that way 14:07:40 'course escreen might be annoying itself 14:07:50 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:55 Also, is there any documentation on the "rules" for indenting? 14:09:14 Quadrescence: Use seperate frames instead of windows 14:09:44 tcr: Separate frames or separate windows? 14:10:07 If you want to split vertically, use seperate frames 14:10:39 C-x 3 14:11:00 (or maybe I've rebound that one?) 14:11:31 I'd rather have non-lame emacs windowing 14:11:36 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 14:11:57 I'd rather not have to use the mouse, and I've yet to dtrt to my wm choice. 14:11:57 tcr: hi. sent you a mail. Lenz is comming. 14:12:07 -!- knobo [n=user@148.122.202.247] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:12:19 dlowe: What exactly is the problem with emacs? 14:12:34 demmeln: to the mailing list? 14:12:46 tcr: just to you ;) 14:13:04 Quadrescence: it doesn't do what I what when I want it to 14:13:15 dlowe: Hehe 14:13:16 Quadrescence: it's a common bug 14:13:30 the problem is that sometimes you want this, sometimes that behaviour 14:13:40 I have the same problem with my window manager 14:13:40 what I want. stupid XO keyboard 14:13:56 IIRC, the windowing is pretty hardcoded into the C code of emacs. 14:14:26 demmeln: can you see my privmsgs? 14:14:48 and any attempt to mess with it would presumably lead to RMS setting fire to your house or similar 14:15:00 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@97-89-230-116.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:09 There was a great lightning talk on the directions guile is going in. Apparently the goal is to move it into emacs while still supporting elisp 14:16:19 (at ILC) 14:17:02 that's been the goal for as long as I can remember guile existing, I think 14:17:49 I'm not sure supporting elisp was a goal. That's the exciting part. 14:18:11 I thought guile used scheme 14:18:59 it does. They've got an intermediate language now, though, that supports both scheme and javascript. An elisp frontend is in the works 14:19:15 http://www.mit.edu/~raeburn/guilemacs/b #this project or someone else? 14:19:16 ah 14:19:31 dan_b: not that one, though there are some reusable pieces there 14:19:37 Supporting elisp is a big deal, because that means it might actually be integrated into emacs in our lifetime 14:21:24 jewel [n=jewel@41.242.133.68] has joined #lisp 14:21:41 now, ecl next 14:23:16 what, guile? 14:24:26 or better: guile, what? 14:24:36 nah. it would be nice 14:25:29 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 14:25:49 oh, there's some actual progress in guile? 14:26:09 it has a compiler now 14:26:10 about time 14:26:10 reputedly 14:26:45 Speaking of emacs, why does my new frame not respect my color settings? Green on black is the default, but the new frame is black on white. This is first time I've had need of another frame. 14:26:48 wow. this must be the most long-lived project with more developers&fans than actual users :) 14:27:06 http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=guile.git;a=blob;f=doc/ref/compiler.texi;h=27d8f79c82ae32a6255b9d3359553ba0aef2ef67;hb=HEAD 14:27:15 cmm: haha 14:27:20 cmm: newlisp 14:27:40 man 14:27:44 lisp is kind of addictive o_O 14:27:50 tmh: default-frame-alist? 14:27:56 rsynnott: my impression is that there are people who use newlisp. usually ex-php users 14:28:09 elderK: all the cool kids are doing it :D 14:28:15 stassats`: Thanks, I'll check that. 14:28:21 and their grandads, too! 14:28:25 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:47 okay, arc then :) 14:28:51 dlowe, lol. :P 14:29:02 wingo-tp: ah, so you've resurrected Keisuke's VM? 14:29:03 (I'm pretty certain there are no real apps except the news.yc thing in arc) 14:29:12 wingo-tp: you seriously rule 14:29:43 cmm: man, working with keisuke's code has been a lovely treat 14:31:47 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:32:50 tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.145] has joined #lisp 14:32:59 baffg [n=baffg@208-254-122-026.plateautel.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:20 -!- technik is now known as rlonstein 14:35:33 lisp! it _is_ your father's killer atomic robot! 14:38:17 xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:38 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D54E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:39:25 Oh man, there's got to be a better way to do binary IO. 14:39:42 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 14:40:25 minion: tell elderK about binary-types 14:40:26 elderK: please look at binary-types: Binary-types is a Library for accessing binary files with fixed bit-length code-words. http://www.cliki.net/binary-types 14:41:11 Ping The-Kenny 14:41:22 tmh: pong 14:41:22 seen The-Kenny 14:41:39 The-Kenny: Are you KT, that mad guy on CLL? 14:41:45 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@212.116.219.91] has left #lisp 14:41:55 differently-sane, perhaps 14:41:59 tmh: No. 14:42:14 tmh: I don't know what KT or CLL means... so: No. 14:42:26 Okay, well, I had a cells reference for KT. Anyway, maybe I'll just post it there. 14:42:28 (and at least he's a SMART mad guy, unlike most of the rest of the cll mad people) 14:42:59 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-180.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:44:32 thanks h4ns 14:48:41 spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.241] has joined #lisp 14:49:35 -!- spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.241] has left #lisp 14:50:33 bsummersett_ [n=bsummers@udhcp-macvpn-846.public.engin.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 14:51:29 bascule [i=noether@62.75.255.124] has joined #lisp 14:52:49 The-Kenny: cll is news:comp.lang.lisp 14:53:15 The-Kenny: KT is: http://video.google.fr/videosearch?q=kenny%20tilton%20on%20lisp&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv# 14:53:20 segv [n=mb@p4FC1D54E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:35 -!- bascule [i=noether@62.75.255.124] has left #lisp 14:55:05 matimago: Ok, thanks. 14:55:41 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:37 perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #lisp 15:01:28 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:01:50 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:34 wchogg [n=wchogg@216.165.145.79] has joined #lisp 15:05:48 spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.241] has joined #lisp 15:07:24 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:28 Goodnight people, 15:07:33 and hey, thank you for all your help :) 15:07:37 deego [n=user@74.255.63.136] has joined #lisp 15:07:58 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:08:08 -!- kreuter [i=kreuter@dhcp-18-111-6-190.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:02 -!- spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.241] has left #lisp 15:09:47 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279775610.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 15:10:05 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-4-43.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:11:07 theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 15:11:21 *mega1* summons _death 15:11:27 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:50 mega1: I'm glad you've had some time lately to hack on sbcl! 15:12:46 -!- baffg [n=baffg@208-254-122-026.plateautel.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:13:00 milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.160] has joined #lisp 15:13:02 is there a way to get an executable created with (save-lisp-and-die :executable t) to do a --no-sysinit --no-userinit by default? 15:13:26 Xach: me too, but it's not sustainable. Too much stuff to do. 15:13:27 :save-runtime-options, no? (Xach?) 15:13:28 pass a custom :toplevel 15:13:43 RPG wrote on the blackboard: "I cried Til I passed out." - The Boston Globe 15:13:58 I asked him what it meant and he told me to figure it out myself. 15:14:11 Google is so far unproductive. Anybody have any clues? 15:14:24 pkhuong: s-r-o seems to just save the dynamic-space and control-stack-size 15:15:16 And inhibits option processing only for the runtime. 15:18:26 jfm3: There has to be more context to work from than what you've provided. 15:18:37 -!- elderK [n=zk@122-57-244-79.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 15:18:42 freaky, I input a random number to test my sqrt function and I get 42 15:19:16 jfm3: "Til" written like that? 15:19:18 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 15:19:20 sounds like a first name to me 15:22:33 There is literally no more context. 15:22:42 other than this is at ILC09. 15:22:55 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:23:11 "Til" is indeed written like that, but I'm not sure it's significant. The handwriting is not what I would consider careful. 15:23:48 *_death* makes an appearance 15:24:27 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:33 searching on that exact string in boston.com returns a sponsored link to irish pubs 15:24:57 kreuter [i=kreuter@dhcp-18-111-6-190.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:25:34 kenny tilton is entertaining. 15:25:39 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:25:41 he reminds me of don cherry. 15:25:52 is he talking about Cells? 15:26:04 a bit 15:26:15 _death: any news on the tls index collision bug? 15:26:18 <_death> mega1: I couldn't reproduce my error on the latest sbcl.. 15:26:40 _death: bah, even without that patch I pasted? 15:27:20 :( his website with the screenshot of the insane graphical inspector is gone 15:27:35 <_death> mega1: right.. so I'll need to compile 1.0.26 15:28:24 Hmm, what image might be appropriate for "i made u a stack frame but i eated it'? 15:28:33 _death: if that was the one with which you had the troubles then yes, it would make sense to try to patch on that one. 15:30:09 i still don't know what cells are 15:30:13 in this context. 15:30:33 ah, http://web.archive.org/web/20070726205950/www.tilton-technology.com/cloucell.jpg 15:30:44 <_death> mega1: yep 15:30:44 also http://web.archive.org/web/20070726205935/www.tilton-technology.com/nesting02.jpg 15:31:07 Xach: a cat with a single picture frame? 15:32:00 a picture of three cats sitting on shelves, each over the other 15:32:29 This paper by Radul & Sussman was posted on LTU -> http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/44215 15:32:35 http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/sorry.jpg 15:32:41 ^ Xach 15:32:46 ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:04 It is about propagators, but it is the reference I was going to point KT to. They use the terminology, CELLS. 15:33:07 matimago: that is a superb picture, thank you 15:33:08 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA290.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:33:19 Thanks google image ;-) 15:33:25 speeddaemon [n=Scarab13@bur-agw-2.eth0.cns.vt.edu] has joined #lisp 15:33:35 -!- speeddaemon [n=Scarab13@bur-agw-2.eth0.cns.vt.edu] has left #lisp 15:35:12 Xach: you may need to gimp it a little adding pieces of stack frames on the floor. 15:35:36 Strange. Vanilla lisp-mode doesn't recognize `apply' as a lisp keyword. 15:35:55 vy: lisp keywords start with a colon. 15:36:01 this is for a lightning talk, so it will not be on the screen for very long 15:36:08 ok. 15:36:10 Neither does for MAKE-SEQUENCE. 15:36:22 vy: they're not lisp keywords. 15:36:35 tmh: that's one seriously cool paper, and the model it describes is different from what is presented by KT's Cells (dunno how Cells is actually implemented, so...) 15:36:45 matimago: No, I meant the tokens entitled as keywords in emacs syntax highlighter. 15:37:11 vy: Why should they? they're ordinary functions 15:37:16 cmm: I haven't read the paper and am only marginally familiar with KT's Cells. Can you, in 30 seconds or less, describe the difference? ;-) 15:37:27 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:37:28 (They looked similar from the abstract.) 15:37:40 vy: they're nothing. No macro, no special operator, no keyword. Just mere symbols like any other. 15:37:41 tcr: emacs doesn't put any label to them, neither function, nor keyword. 15:37:53 tmh: they _are_ more similar than different, to be sure 15:38:04 I'm honestly confused what you're talking about 15:38:24 minion: computed-class? 15:38:25 computed-class: A class metaobject for computed slot values and more Instances of computed-class are CLOS classes that support per instance lazy computation of slot values while keeping track of dependencies and managing invalidation of such computed results transparently. http://www.cliki.net/computed-class 15:38:29 there's that too. 15:39:18 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-151-22.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:19 tcr: Start emacs with "emacs --no-init-file" and try to open a file with .lisp suffix. You'll see that syntax highlighting is very poor. 15:39:51 All our fancy syntax highlighting was owned by SLIME. 15:39:52 it should be fancy and flashy? no thanks 15:40:00 vy: No, that's untrue. 15:40:21 pjb pasted "vy: font-lock add keywords" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77581 15:40:29 vy: There's the slime-fontifying-fu contrib which fontifies deffoo define-foo and with-foo symbols specially 15:40:34 tmh: in Cells, the propagation logic is attached to cells (data) themselves (or at least that's the presented interface). this means you have to bend over backwards in order to support simple circular constraints. Radul's model doesn't suffer from this, because there cells are simple data, and the propagation logic sits by itself, as it were, so a cell can be updated by any number of propagators and the process simply stops when the value stop 15:40:50 that's reasonably recent and apart from that, slime does not modify fontification 15:40:58 vy: you can generate automatically these kind of font-lock-add-keywords forms...(see the above paste). 15:41:09 pjb: Let me try that hack. 15:41:59 tcr: So what's your explanation for that emacs doesn't fontify MAKE-INSTACE/APPLY/PUSH/SUBSEQ/... in a lisp file? 15:42:28 Why should it fontify it?? 15:42:30 luis & cmm: I'm going to need to set aside some time for propagators and computed classes. 15:42:33 tmh: and since I'm in the surveying mood here, let me note that KT (Garnet's constraints library & "object system" in one piece) shares (well, significantly predates, but what the hell) Cells' "computed cell" model 15:43:10 tcr: Cause MAKE-SEQUENCE is a standard CL function? 15:43:21 why do you care? 15:43:23 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CA71.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:43 cmm: it steals from visicalc (-: 15:43:48 tcr: Oh... You don't use any syntax highlighting. Fine then. 15:44:11 tmh: yeah, and computed-class is yet another implementation of the same spreadsheet-like "computed cell" model 15:44:17 cmm, ohh, a constraints library and "object system" is exactly what I want! 15:44:24 cmm, can I has url? 15:44:38 tic: I don't think you want it, but go have a look :) 15:44:43 minion: KT 15:44:44 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``KT''. 15:44:45 vy: No, I do use syntax highlighting, but what you want is not syntax highlighting 15:44:54 hrm. lemme google... 15:45:16 But I do not want to continue talking to you. 15:45:18 minion: KT is at: http://video.google.fr/videosearch?q=kenny%20tilton%20on%20lisp&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv# 15:45:18 httpvideo.google.frvideosearch?q=kenny%20tilton%20on%20lisp&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozillaen-USofficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv: i agree - kt is 15:45:46 cmm, it could be useful for inspiration, at least! right now it's less of a constraint system as I originally envisioned and more of a object system, but.. 15:45:55 cmm: I have a specific application where this propagator/cell/spreadsheet model would come in handy, I think. Hopefully, I can use it to learn and understand the concept. 15:46:11 matimago, you're confusing me. Is Kenny Tilton a constraint system & object system? I thought he was the author of Cells 15:46:13 kreuter` [i=kreuter@dhcp-18-190-15-66.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:46:19 (or isn't KT == Kenny Tilton?) 15:46:22 tic: you'll find the docs under here: http://garnetlisp.sourceforge.net/ 15:46:49 tcr: how hard would it be to make the autodoc contrib for INST skip the first 2 arguments? 15:46:57 KT? 15:47:00 minion: KT? 15:47:00 KT: Kenny Tilton http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/ http://video.google.fr/videosearch?q=kenny%20tilton%20on%20lisp&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv# 15:47:00 cmm, thanks! 15:47:09 tic, matimago: it's KR, actually. sorry 15:47:33 minion: KR? 15:47:33 KR: Knowledge Representation is a highly flexible and dynamic prototype-based object system library for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/KR 15:47:34 hehe, "A custom object-oriented programming system which uses a prototype-instance model." -- *exactly* what I've done. 15:48:00 tic: it's more involved than your thing :) 15:48:02 although I don't have the constraints and re-evaluating stuff. maybe I could steal that. 15:48:22 cmm, of course! in a huge way. I just noted it's the same concept. A bit interesting. 15:48:28 spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.241] has joined #lisp 15:48:49 tic: Been there. That's why I spend a great deal of time these days on literature review. My "original" idea is usually published and better designed and implemented. 15:48:50 tcr: How can it syntax highlight without categorizing the tokens as function, symbol, etc? You claim it doesn't need to recognize MAKE-SEQUENCE as a keyword, but it somehow manages to syntax highlight it, and your claim goes on like this: 'cause they are separate things. Everyday, something new. 15:49:09 tmh, *nod* 15:49:25 tmh, the ideas might, but someone still has to code it though. 15:50:10 vy: Functions are not syntax. Macros and special operators are. 15:51:01 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:51:05 tcr: nevermind. 2 line patch (: 15:51:05 spradnyesh pasted "closures?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77582 15:51:14 vy: also, if you colorize everything, you don't colorize anything. You only get fruit salad. 15:51:24 shouldn't the last call return 14 (instead of 10) 15:51:33 atleast that's what the book says 15:51:34 matimago, :)) 15:51:37 _angry_ fruit salad 15:51:39 btw, i'm using slime + sbcl 15:52:12 dlowe, no, that'd be XML with the >< 15:52:30 can someone please help me understand closures (see the lisppaste above) 15:52:32 spradnyesh2: y is a special variable (defvar). Special variables don't obey lexical scoping. 15:52:38 -!- bbe [n=bbe@221.226.130.44] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:52:56 spradnyesh2: no closure on Y here 15:53:23 pkhuong: that helps 15:53:37 so instead if i would've done a setf, it would've worked, is it? 15:53:44 spradnyesh2: )7+ is not a valid token for a symbol, portably) 15:53:46 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 15:53:54 s/)/(/1 15:53:58 spradnyesh2: no 15:54:00 pjb annotated #77582 "with lexical scope <=> closure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77582#1 15:54:12 but if i do just a setf in sbcl, it gives me some kinda 'undefined variable' warning 15:54:27 Actually I'm talking nonsense. 1+ is a valid token, too. 15:54:33 Meh, I need a break. 15:54:39 -!- tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.145] has left #lisp 15:54:55 spradnyesh2: a closure is a container for the values of free variables in a piece of code 15:54:57 spradnyesh2: right, setf works on defined variables 15:55:15 pjb annotated #77582 "or actually, you can use the closure from outside it." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77582#2 15:56:02 -!- xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:56:36 -!- bsummersett_ [n=bsummers@udhcp-macvpn-846.public.engin.umich.edu] has quit [] 15:56:41 spradnyesh2: you can use setf, only not on an undefined variables. To define a special-global variable, you can use DEFPARAMETER or defvar ; to define a lexical-local variable you can use LET; to define a special-local variable you can use LET+DECLARE SPECIAL. 15:56:49 thanks pjb for the annotations 15:57:07 ``Erik___ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:13 but now am confused b/n setf and defvar 15:57:21 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:57:26 -!- ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:26 spradnyesh2: just write (let (x) (setf x 3) (7+ x)) instead of defvar. 15:57:29 if i do a setf without actually defining the var (using defvar) 15:57:33 <_death> mega1: heh.. compiling 1.0.26.0 now fails with a type-error 15:57:38 does the setf create a global variable 15:57:40 or what? 15:57:43 spradnyesh2: don't do this 15:57:51 spradnyesh2: setf without defvar is implementation dependant unspecified we don't know. 15:58:00 spradnyesh2: defvar is for declaring top-level special variables 15:58:16 spradnyesh2: not just any variables 15:58:41 spradnyesh2: just wrap your setf inside a let: (let (x y z) (setf x 3) (setf y (7+ x)) (setf z (7+ y)) (values x y z)) 15:58:50 although there are a lot of examples in the wild that will setf/setq a variable that isn't previously established in dynamic scope. 15:58:54 sbcl complains about that. 15:59:09 i think clisp just establishes the binding silently. 15:59:16 *dlowe* appreciates the complaints. 15:59:19 Yes, a special binding. 15:59:50 -!- kreuter [i=kreuter@dhcp-18-111-6-190.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:59:52 paul graham's books in particular tend to have such setf/setq examples. 16:00:13 sbcl is rather complain-y in general 16:00:23 yeah 16:00:23 It's a good compiler. 16:00:47 (recently had to delete my fasls, and got over a thousand style warnings when loading something with lots of dependencies) 16:00:50 think it was elephant 16:01:03 elephant does that. 16:01:05 some people just have no style 16:01:40 diog3n3s [n=diog3n3s@97-118-156-192.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:58 spradnyesh annotated #77582 "defvar != setf (without defvar)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77582#3 16:02:10 adeht pasted "sbcl 1.0.26.0 compilation failure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77583 16:02:33 -!- spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.241] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:02:44 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-140-163.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 16:02:44 spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.241] has joined #lisp 16:03:02 sorry guys, i got disconnected 16:03:11 so missed anything that was said for last 5 mins 16:03:21 -!- ASau` [n=user@host196-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off!"] 16:03:27 minion: logs? 16:03:27 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 16:03:33 spradnyesh2: check the logs. 16:03:53 matimago: thanks, will do 16:04:14 spradnyesh2: why don't you write (let ((13+ (a+fn 13))) (funcall 13+ 4)) ? 16:04:33 It's simplier than (setf 13+ (a+fn 13)) (funcall 13+ 4)... 16:04:51 matimago: i'm trying to learn something from a book (me started learning lisp only about 2 weeks ago) 16:04:58 so still trying to grasp concepts 16:05:11 what book? 16:05:12 it's not about what is easier, it's about what's the difference 16:05:20 common lisp: an interactive approach 16:05:27 spradnyesh2: Take good habits soon. Use (let ((var expr)) ... var ...) 16:06:09 _death: is this with or without the patch? 16:06:11 It's a pitfal. To understand the explications you'll need to know more of lisp yet. 16:06:15 <_death> mega1: without 16:06:17 _death: what's the host compiler? 16:06:29 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:06:38 ok, i read the logs 16:06:52 it still doesn't answer my doubt 16:06:59 but i'll take matimago's advice 16:07:03 spradnyesh2: ok. So what's your doubt? 16:07:03 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.90.1"] 16:07:05 i'll learn more and come back to this Q 16:07:21 -!- kreuter` [i=kreuter@dhcp-18-190-15-66.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:07:31 matimago: if i create a var w/o using defvar and using setf instead, what kind of a variable is created 16:07:43 spradnyesh2: beware that we used LET in two places. In defining the closure, where it's essential. And in using it were it is only accidental and irrelevant. 16:07:44 spradnyesh2: anything, including "rm -rf *" 16:07:51 -!- deego [n=user@74.255.63.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:07:55 this doubt rises from the fact that the defvar didn't work for closures, but the variable created with just setf did 16:07:56 spradnyesh2: it depends on the implementation. 16:08:09 spradnyesh2: some implementation do the same as with DEFPARAMETER. 16:08:17 spradnyesh2: some may do something else. 16:08:17 so obviously those are different 16:08:23 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 16:08:35 spradnyesh2: some change the meaning of all the occurences of this variables in all the functions that have already been entered! 16:08:56 This is really something you need to avoid. 16:08:57 k 16:09:43 if things are so tightly implementation dependent, then me ponders how difficult it must be to change implementations? 16:10:05 is it worthwhile to research on capabilities of an implementation and stick (learn thoroughly) to that? 16:10:25 spradnyesh2: usually it's not difficult because we try to avoid these implementation specific items. 16:11:00 spradnyesh2: it's much more worthwhile to learn CL, the implementation independant parts, and to stick to it unless you cannot do otherwise. 16:11:05 _death: If you're building from >= 1.0.26.20, please try again with the patch to src/compiler/constraint.lisp at 16:11:24 Being able to change of implementations, or even use several during the normal course of development is very valuable. 16:11:35 matimago: i like that advice :) 16:11:37 thanks 16:11:38 spradnyesh2: anyways, remember: you need to use LET to create a en-closure. 16:11:50 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:05 (defun, lambda, and a few other include an implicit LET). 16:13:20 _death: it builds here just fine, with or without the patch 16:15:28 pkhuong: but _death said it's 1.0.26.0, is that correct? 16:15:57 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:16:35 <_death> mega1: I tried compiling 1.0.26.0 with 1.0.26.20 .. from what I understood, I need to apply the patch pkhuong mentioned to 1.0.26.0 and try again 16:17:56 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Success] 16:19:19 spradnyesh2: closures rely on lexical scoping. they can't be defined in dynamic scope. 16:20:19 well, they can but they'd almost never work. 16:21:17 <_death> and it compiles 16:22:32 phf [n=phf@dhcp-18-111-6-180.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:22:37 <_death> hmm.. now I tried to restart the lisp several times to reproduce the problem 16:22:42 _death: strange that only you should run into this on 1.0.26.0 ... do you have some extra patches? 16:22:51 <_death> mega1: nope 16:23:02 <_death> I got a different problem now 16:23:35 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 16:24:05 adeht annotated #77583 "sbcl startup problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77583#1 16:25:05 it's not your lucky day 16:25:09 <_death> :) 16:25:39 so what's the host compiler (as pkhuong asked before)? 16:25:46 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:26:01 <_death> I answered before that it was 1.0.26.20 16:26:06 -!- theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:54 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.162.234] has joined #lisp 16:27:53 that got lost on the internets on the way here. And what is the gcc version? 16:28:16 <_death> gcc (SUSE Linux) 4.3.1 20080507 (prerelease) [gcc-4_3-branch revision 135036] 16:29:03 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 16:29:24 <_death> I succeeded in reproducing the old problem btw (once out of several tries) 16:29:35 <_death> ah, again 16:29:47 _death: still without the patch? 16:30:15 <_death> mega1: yeah.. I can try with the patch now.. but you know, it's not really testable ;) 16:30:41 I know 16:31:02 <_death> what was the link again? (or should I search the logs?) 16:32:34 <_death> btw that gcc has some problems.. erlang won't compile because it has some bug they detect 16:32:46 _death: http://paste.lisp.org/display/77338 16:32:54 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:33:25 <_death> I see you added that test code 16:33:39 <_death> should I run it on the unpatched one to see what happens? 16:34:03 -!- spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.241] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:57 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 16:35:07 spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.241] has joined #lisp 16:35:17 <_death> doesn't oops on an instance I know has the problem 16:35:34 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 16:40:57 beach: what is your professional title? 16:41:07 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:41:35 <_death> mega1: it needs to be :key #'cdr 16:41:42 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has left #lisp 16:41:48 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:44:18 <_death> mega1: ok, your patch didn't work.. I still can reproduce the problem with it 16:45:13 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 16:45:20 -!- phf [n=phf@dhcp-18-111-6-180.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:43 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 16:46:45 lakedenma [n=irchon@166.195.143.146] has joined #lisp 16:49:08 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca98.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:48 <_death> no, don't quit! :) 16:51:04 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51:12 Is there a (free) tool that can read in a .lisp file and output all of the functions' dependencies (be it in the form of a graph or whatever) on other functions? 16:51:24 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:52:01 -!- lakedenma [n=irchon@166.195.143.146] has quit [] 16:52:17 lakedenma [n=irchon@166.195.143.146] has joined #lisp 16:52:54 mwahaha 16:53:23 Quadrescence: I have something like that. it works not on a function granularity, but for asdf components. 16:53:33 WebGuest [n=WebGuest@c-0f5fe353.732-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:53:42 Quadrescence: check out asdf-dependency-grovel 16:55:07 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.242.133.68] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:56:30 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:58:41 -!- Beket [n=stathis@adsl-244-091.diodos.auth.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:29 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-24-216-102.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:11 -!- lakedenma [n=irchon@166.195.143.146] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:05:26 minion: memo for mega1: 1.0.26.20 added more stringent argument checking for vector-push-extend. 17:05:27 Remembered. I'll tell mega1 when he/she/it next speaks. 17:06:28 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@x250041.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:06:45 *_death* now compiles 1.0.26.21 17:08:03 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has quit [] 17:09:26 newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has joined #lisp 17:12:09 I am a bit unclear on what is going on with the interaction between a handler-bind at some high level and restart-case at some low level. A condition is signaled... are we actually unwinding the stack up to the first handler-bind to look for a handler? Then, if handler-bind invokes a restart, are we rewinding back down to the surrounding restart-case? Or does the signal look at some pointer to a handler in the same stack (stack is not really changing 17:13:05 <_death> no, the stack isn't unwound 17:13:13 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:13:37 handlers are passed down the stack from their origin, iiuc 17:14:57 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-50.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:15:40 Thank you. That makes a lot of sense to me. IS there a way to walk up and down the stack? 17:15:42 Koerper [n=Slax@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:16:30 -!- Koerper [n=Slax@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:39 haha 17:16:55 I can click on 1.0.6.21 in this window, and my web browser tries to visit that IP address 17:16:57 yay 17:17:00 newlisper how can you unwind the stack and rewind it with it never being altered assuming the handler can use it aswell 17:18:04 xristos: Very carefully? 17:18:38 i dont think its possible 17:18:39 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-190.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:18:49 <_death> heh.. how about 127.0.0.1 for next sbcl version 17:18:52 The latter question was just some thoughts at debugging. Unfortunately, I cannot conjure a real use case, but it is nice to know what is possible. 17:18:58 unless you save/restore but thats not what i'm talking about 17:19:13 Koerper [n=Slax@c-ee70e253.4542024--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:19:33 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:20:02 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4599.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 17:20:38 jestocost [n=cmell@x250002.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:21:45 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-5d82d1a372e82f3f] has joined #lisp 17:21:58 gueux [n=g@DU169.N36.QueensU.CA] has joined #lisp 17:22:01 hi 17:22:08 -!- ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["ping pong poff"] 17:22:39 _death: sorry for the network acting up 17:22:40 mega1, memo from pkhuong: 1.0.26.20 added more stringent argument checking for vector-push-extend. 17:22:50 so the patch didn't work? 17:23:03 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:23:29 <_death> mega1: nope 17:24:01 can't see your answer to the erlang question I asked, just before my network connection died 17:24:39 <_death> ah.. reproduced it with latest sbcl 17:24:40 maybe it didn't make it 17:24:50 what does erlang complain about? 17:25:28 I have a function which print its output on several lines. is it possible to add two spaces at the beginning of each line outputed by this function? 17:25:43 yes, with pprint-logical-block and making sure *print-pretty* is true 17:26:11 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:26:26 <_death> mega1: hmm, I'll have to download it and compile it again to see.. sec 17:26:34 ok thanks 17:27:22 josemanuel [n=josemanu@177.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:27:36 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:27:42 <_death> mega1: did you see what I said about your test code? 17:27:51 yes, I read it, thanks. 17:27:58 "gcc-4.3.0 has a serious optimizer bug. It produces an Erlang emulatorthat will crash immediately. The bug is supposed to be fixed in gcc-4.3.1." 17:28:16 <_death> yeah that's likely it 17:28:39 how can I display a help for a given function? 17:28:52 <_death> (documentation 'fn-name 'function) might do 17:29:06 ok 17:29:19 Is that more generally recommended than (describe 'fn-name)? 17:29:21 <_death> also check out `describe' 17:29:57 <_death> newlisper: not really.. describe is for humans, documentation more for programs 17:30:34 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:30:36 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 17:30:59 -!- spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.6.241] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:31:19 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:31:22 (documentation 'pprint-logical-block 'function) ? 17:31:38 clhs pprint-logical-block 17:31:38 that gives me nil :( 17:31:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_ppr_lo.htm 17:32:23 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F226.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:48 what is clhs? 17:32:51 dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:53 _death: do the tests pass? 17:32:55 ok 17:32:59 :) 17:33:07 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 17:33:12 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 17:33:26 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:33:28 <_death> mega1: lemme try 17:33:37 -!- demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig112.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:33:44 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Client Quit] 17:33:45 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:21 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:34:52 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:18 phf [n=phf@dhcp-18-111-6-180.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:36:22 pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #lisp 17:36:30 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:44 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:39:05 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-125-22-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:39:41 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@93-40-131-94.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:39:58 theoffset [n=ismael@132.254.52.243] has joined #lisp 17:40:03 -!- jfm3 [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has left #lisp 17:41:45 pprint-logical-block seems to be really difficult to use for the noob I am :( 17:42:15 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:42:44 -!- phf [n=phf@dhcp-18-111-6-180.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["Leaving..."] 17:42:46 (pprint-logical-block (foo bar) :per-line-prefix " ") 17:43:16 does not work at all :( 17:43:34 -!- fufie__ [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:43:43 gueux: what does foo return when you call it with the value of bar? 17:43:51 (pprint-logical-block (*standard-output* nil :per-line-prefix " ") (princ "foo bar")) 17:44:22 *dlowe* has never used pprint-logical-block. 17:45:48 <_death> mega1: apparent success 17:46:49 _death: I blame your gcc and the hardware. 17:46:51 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.160] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:46:53 in fact (foo bar) is a function 17:47:09 which is a relatively safe position to take ;-). 17:47:15 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:51 gueux: you're calling it like that 17:47:56 and I want to prefix all the lines it prints with two spaces 17:48:19 dlowe: that was for the (princ "foo bar")) 17:48:19 <_death> mega1: heh.. would you like a binary to see if it fails on your machine? 17:49:11 _death: that's a good idea 17:49:41 ok 17:49:43 <_death> how do I create a binary tarball? 17:49:43 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:57 (pprint-logical-block (*standard-output* nil) (foo bar)) works 17:49:57 *mega1* scrambles for a chroot jail 17:50:02 <_death> binary-distribution.sh? 17:50:05 thanks 17:50:37 _death: do this instead: INSTALL_ROOT=`pwd`/install-dir/ sh install.sh 17:50:44 and tar up install-dir/ 17:50:46 clhs pprint-logical-block 17:50:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_ppr_lo.htm 17:53:43 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:54:38 milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.160] has joined #lisp 17:55:46 fufie__ [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:05 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:57:11 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@97-89-230-116.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:59:24 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@97-89-230-116.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:53 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 18:02:58 cads [n=max@adsl-154-105-103.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:53 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 18:04:53 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:06:01 mrSpec pasted "dolist - subst few variables" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77593 18:06:14 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-98-194-108-33.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:06:21 Is it possible to subst X and Y in the same time ? to get: (= Z (+ 2 5)) ? 18:06:43 <_death> clhs sublis 18:06:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sublis.htm 18:06:47 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:03 ahh thx :D 18:08:34 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:47 ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:17 pjb: your found photo was well-received 18:17:28 -!- ``Erik___ is now known as ``Erik 18:17:41 <_death> mega1: did you get the notice? 18:17:56 dwave_ [n=ask@212251241158.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:18:04 _death: no, which notice? 18:18:08 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 18:18:16 <_death> I /noticed you.. hmm 18:19:35 dcjackson [n=dcj@nat02.service.sv2.tellme.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:40 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:22:01 phf [n=user@dhcp-18-111-6-180.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:22:17 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:22:55 -!- phf [n=user@dhcp-18-111-6-180.dyn.mit.edu] has left #lisp 18:23:41 FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 18:26:27 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 18:28:00 ejs [n=eugen@128-129-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:18 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:13 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 18:30:01 -!- gueux [n=g@DU169.N36.QueensU.CA] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:22 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D54E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:31:44 segv [n=mb@p4FC1D54E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:12 -!- ejs [n=eugen@128-129-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:32:18 ejs [n=eugen@24-124-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:32 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCF43F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:02 ejs1 [n=eugen@24-124-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:35 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@24-124-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:34:53 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:27 -!- diog3n3s [n=diog3n3s@97-118-156-192.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:36:22 tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.145] has joined #lisp 18:36:57 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:37:32 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:27 Muld [n=wr23@88-196-43-147-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 18:40:53 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@nat02.service.sv2.tellme.com] has quit [] 18:42:26 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279775610.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:43:03 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 18:43:39 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:44:38 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@212251241158.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 18:44:57 Xach: AWWWWW that stack frame puppy picture is adorable 18:45:09 Xach: you're back! 18:45:40 Xach: wonderful lightning talk man! :) 18:46:31 gz_ [n=gz@dhcp-18-190-17-83.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:46:43 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 18:47:06 -!- gz_ [n=gz@dhcp-18-190-17-83.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:47:17 gz_ [n=gz@dhcp-18-190-17-83.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:47:44 -!- Muld [n=wr23@88-196-43-147-dsl.noe.estpak.ee] has quit [] 18:49:06 -!- cads [n=max@adsl-154-105-103.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:49:12 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-109-172.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:41 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:49:57 minion: logs 18:49:58 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 18:50:33 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 18:51:08 -!- gz_ [n=gz@dhcp-18-190-17-83.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:51:16 gz_ [n=gz@dhcp-18-190-17-83.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:51:38 -!- gz_ [n=gz@dhcp-18-190-17-83.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:12 gz_ [n=gz@dhcp-18-190-17-83.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:52:28 -!- gz_ [n=gz@dhcp-18-190-17-83.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:55:31 can I give as a argument to sublis, dolist ? to make few substitiutions in on list ? 18:56:06 something like: (sublis (dolist (i '(((x . 2)(y . 0)) ((x . 3) (y . 2)))) i) '((= (* 2 x) (+ (* 5 y) z))) ) but it is not working... 18:56:49 <_death> (mapcar (lambda (alist) (sublist alist the-template)) the-alists) 18:57:11 <_death> sublis even 18:57:39 oki 19:00:13 kreuter [i=kreuter@dhcp-18-190-15-66.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 19:02:13 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-57-33.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:07:04 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has quit ["leaving"] 19:07:35 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 19:09:06 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:49 -!- FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:09:59 gigamonkey: enjoying ilc 19:10:43 fz: thanks! 19:13:04 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:08 -!- kreuter [i=kreuter@dhcp-18-190-15-66.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:24:15 ejs1 [n=eugen@24-124-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:39 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:24:49 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:25:06 -!- WebGuest is now known as schmx 19:27:13 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D54E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:30:21 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@24-124-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:31:10 -!- pierre__thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:23 ejs1 [n=eugen@24-124-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:25 pierre__thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:54 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CA71.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:35:21 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-30-230-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:35 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:35:41 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:17 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@24-124-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:38:22 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:38:36 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:39 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:42 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A66A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:24 Beket [n=stathis@adsl-244-091.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 19:44:24 foom2 [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:45 If I have a generic function with one method specialized on array and another specialized on sequence, which method is called for a vector? The precedence list for the system class vector is : vector, array, sequence, t. For array, it is array, t and for sequence it is sequence t 19:49:02 array method 19:49:40 class precedence of the vector class matters 19:50:27 Hmm, thats a problem for how I've organized things. 19:51:08 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:51:32 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-36-4.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 19:53:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:42 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:57:11 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:57:22 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:58:19 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:00:01 gueux [n=g@d193-172-200.home3.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:06 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:00:13 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:59 tmh: you could do some magic with method combinations 20:04:24 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-222-164-136.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:47 Yay. I have internet again. And it only took seven and a half hours for the phone company to fix it. 20:06:00 be a man, be your own phone company. 20:07:22 When is a vector not a subtype of simple-array? 20:07:33 When it's not a simple-vector? 20:07:49 stassats: I'm considering that, but my method combination mojo is weak. I think I'll brute force it for now and try to factor that stuff out later. I just started using before methods, I need to get a better handle on CLOS, first. 20:08:34 Neither simple-array nor simple-vector are system classes 20:09:26 ... I think I just saw the interrupt controllers getting programmed. 20:09:51 -!- Beket [n=stathis@adsl-244-091.diodos.auth.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:10:06 ''' 20:10:18 tmh: Just disambiguate explicitly by defining a method that specializes on vector 20:10:19 tmh: They're types that aren't classes? 20:10:20 lol, woops 20:10:26 putty sucks :) 20:10:28 spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 20:10:30 pcnut9999 [n=HP_Admin@modemcable084.63-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:10:42 rodge: You can disable the right-click feature. :) 20:10:45 rodge: What? PuTTY is awesome! 20:10:59 tcr: That's how I'm going to brute force it for now. 20:11:00 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:11:05 nyef: no, no, it sucks, i'm pretty sure =P coming off a real terminal anyway, hehe 20:11:20 -!- pcnut9999 [n=HP_Admin@modemcable084.63-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 20:11:23 does putty try to emulate the X windows copy on highlight functionality? 20:11:24 newlisper: thanks, i've just been too lazy to tweek it, heh 20:11:27 nyef: Yes, see -> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_arrays.htm fore example. 20:11:27 A "real terminal" such as an actual DEC VT220? 20:11:34 nyef: ya! 20:11:36 s/fore/for/ 20:11:41 rodge: Heheh, it hits me sometimes, too. :) 20:11:44 those things are awesome 20:11:55 Fade: Roughly. 20:12:46 most of the paste mishaps I see seem to originate in the hands of windows users interacting with irc through putty. 20:12:53 SBCL will often perform method dispatch on types that are not system classes, but then I've had problems when I've used another implementation. 20:12:56 there must be some sort of mismatch there. 20:13:47 tmh: The other possibility would be to add a (when (typep arg 'sequence) (%foo arg)) to the methods specializing on array 20:14:43 tcr: Yeah, that would work as well. 20:14:56 Fade: Clearly, these windows users would be better off with mIRC. 20:15:03 tmh: perhaps in an :around method 20:15:35 (if (vectorp foo) (call-next-method) ...) ? 20:16:08 well, changing the cut and paste behaviour from the system norm inside a single application seems sort of daft. 20:16:22 tcr: Well, I want to get a working version up and running before I start mucking around with different forms of method combination. 20:16:23 but I guess they figure their constituency is unix users trapped on windows. 20:16:49 tmh: The question is why do you want the sequence method to run rather than the array method? 20:17:08 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 20:17:28 <_3b> pasting is configurable in putty, don't remember if the default is the safe option or not though 20:18:22 tcr: Well, I have that question answered, it's simply a matter of communicating that to lisp. 20:19:04 You mean you answered that question in the backlog? 20:19:10 Fade: luckilly i'm using irssi and it stops really huge pastes 20:19:22 which i've almost done like 5 times now :) 20:19:24 ''' 20:19:29 wow, ok 20:19:34 i'm changing that setting right now 20:20:08 Does: (declare (ignore x)), where x was the argument of a defun, simply, well, ignore it (maybe do optimizations, and hold back warnings)? 20:20:11 Hrm. #x8720000000. Not config space, not CSRs... 20:20:32 Quadrescence: It'll produce a warning if you use X nontheless 20:20:42 clhs ignore 20:20:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ignore.htm 20:21:03 tcr: I was saying if you /didn't/ use X, and it was an argument. 20:21:07 tcr: No, I mean I've answered for myself. I know why I want the vector to be treated as a sequence instead of an array, I just need to express it in lisp. At the moment, the easiest way is (defmethod foo ((data vector))), (defmethod foo ((data list))) and (defmethod foo ((data array))). 20:21:14 Ah, interrupt acknowledge. 20:21:29 easiest meaning most straightforward. 20:21:42 stassats: One day I hope the specbot dies. :} 20:21:46 tmh: Would you mind sharing that answer? Perhaps the hive can come up with an alternative 20:22:35 But yeah right the above seems appropriate 20:22:51 and faster than anything you'd like to do on SEQUENCE 20:23:14 won't work so nice for user-extensible sequences but well :) 20:24:00 There are several ways to represent a matrix. 3 obvious ones are a nested list, a nested vector and a 2D array. The nested list and vector are both sequences, but because of the class precedence, the nested vector will end up dispatching to the array method, which is a problem. 20:24:10 dwave [n=ask@212251217186.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:25:03 Uh I don't think I like that. You should settle to one internal representation, and then provide a normalization function 20:25:26 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251217186.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 20:25:45 tcr: I did, but the normalization function still needs to handle the various representations. 20:26:07 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 20:26:41 Personally, I wouldn't have used a generic function for that I think, but I can see your point 20:27:59 <_3b> tmh: what sort of matrices are you dealing with? 20:29:09 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:20 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:22 _3b: General, square, symmetric, Hermitian, triangular, identity and permutation. Those are almost under control. Then I'll work on banded and then sparse. 20:31:36 <_3b> ok, so arbitrary matrices, not just small ones for graphics or whatever 20:32:16 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 20:32:30 Yeah, I'm working on a linear algebra library. 20:34:23 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:34:51 -!- schmx [n=WebGuest@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:35:05 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:35:35 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:36:01 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 20:39:20 -!- rich_holygoat [i=pigeon@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has left #lisp 20:40:01 hermitian! 20:41:21 I made a function that takes a vector of M integers including all in the set [0,N] where M>N, and maps it to a unique integer. More specifically, let X be a vector of |X| > N integers containing all non-negative integers <= N. Let pi_X be the set of permutations of X. I made a surjective (bijective, even) function H: pi_X -> Z\intersect[0,|pi_X|), as well as its inverse H^-1. 20:41:31 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has left #lisp 20:41:37 (erm, that was for tmh) 20:43:10 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:38 *tmh* is trying to parse it. 20:44:10 tmh: It's a perfect hashing function for arrays that could contain repeated values. 20:45:46 Nice, my real analysis skills are weak, so I was having to read it several times to get the idea. 20:45:49 [1 2 2 3 4 4 4 4 5 5] <- Permute this in any order (call it p), then I made a function H such that it will turn it into an integer h=H(p) (and can be recovered from H^(-1)(h) ) 20:46:34 That is impressive compression, how are you using it? 20:46:59 tmh: I was using it for a general puzzle solver (Rubik's-like puzzles) 20:47:22 Since I didn't want to store puzzle states as arrays, but rather as the smallest possible integer. 20:47:59 Yeah, did you use a standard/documented technique, or do you need to write a paper to document it? 20:48:51 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:49:11 I looked everywhere for a way to do it, but couldn't find a way in any combinatoric book or algorithm book. So I guess I'd need to write something (or post the code somewhere. It was originally in C++, then I changed it to Fortran 95 because I liked that more, then I maybe translated it to CL, but I don't recall). 20:50:03 That definitely sounds like paper material. It would make a great paper. 20:50:54 Aieeeeee 20:51:12 jsnell: I remember you saying that there was pprinted stuff in sbcl fasls 20:51:18 I also wrote functions likewise for arrays containing permutations of any number of {0,1}, containing exactly [0,N), containing exactly [1,N) and any number of zeros, and containing N values all of which are 0<=A[i] now I actually believe you 20:52:29 *tmh* is again, slowly, parsing Quadrescence's post. 20:54:35 e.g., [1,0,0,0,1,1,1,0] (all 0 and 1), [0,1,5,4,0,0,2,3] (1 to 5 mixed with zeros), [1,6,3,4,5,2,0] (0 to 6), [2,3,3,1,0,3,2,3] (all 0<=x<4), and they all map to 0 <= integer < total_number_of_perms without calculating any other permutation (i.e., finding the hash of one permutation requires no knowledge of the other permutations) 20:54:47 Quad: CRC-32 isn't enough, feeding it one int at a time? 20:55:22 Quad: (assuming small sets) 20:55:35 newlisper: No. I needed them to be perfect hashes. Meaning, it has to map to the set of integers from 0 to the maximum number of permutations of that set 20:55:53 And it has to be reversible so I can recover the original array from the integer. 20:56:13 *tmh* is just working on a simple linear algebra library. 20:56:15 Quad: Oo, I love compression like that. 20:56:33 tmh: Well, I brought it up in case you maybe could use them for something. 20:56:33 Quad: That might be what you are looking for ("compression"). 20:56:42 I just need to be able to solve linear systems and get some eigensolutions. 20:56:56 Quadrescence: thanks, I appreciate it. 20:57:02 newlisper: Hashing, compression, ranking, etc. You could call it a million things. 20:57:33 Quad: True. Just tossing out another synonym in case you hadn't already looked. It reminds me of trying to reduce a file to a value. 20:58:05 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-133-68.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:58:17 Yes, it does indeed. I'm just stingy and wanted it to be "lossless" and using the smallest integers. :} 20:58:49 tmh: I'll see if I have the CL code somewhere later, otherwise maybe I'll convert it to CL (even if you don't decide to use it). 20:59:24 Quadrescence: After you described the function, I was musing about uses. That's why I asked about the paper. It would be easier to figure out a use for it if it there was a document to read. 20:59:47 dwave [n=ask@212251217186.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:00:00 tmh: I could write one if you want, though it would be rather informal. 21:00:49 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host179-131-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 21:00:54 mathrick pasted "compile-time weirdness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77603 21:01:06 I need help debugging this error 21:01:28 Quadrescence: Nah, don't write it for me, write it for publication. It doesn't directly apply to what I'm doing, but I'm always interested in trying to apply different techniques to new areas. 21:01:35 what I do is a bit magic, since I attempt to completely clone one package's symbols into another one 21:02:24 the error comes up during asdf:load-op 21:03:12 at first I thought it was some problem with ITER usage during :COMPILE-TOPLEVEL, but it doesn't seem to be the case 21:03:12 newlisper: this is no compression when it's reversible like that, it's encoding. Remember in lisp, integers may have arbitrary big length. 21:03:27 mathrick annotated #77603 "Attempted test-case" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77603#1 21:03:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:42 I made a tiny test case that doesn't have this problem 21:03:56 pjb: It is compression if the original data is larger than the output data. 21:04:14 schoppen1auer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:04:18 I don't understand what happens or why it should error out, as far as I can see, RELOAD is completely valid and *should* work and compile fine 21:04:24 any ideas? 21:04:49 <_3b> mathrick: are you midifying the symbols in teh package containing the code? 21:04:52 but it wouldn't compress things on average 21:05:06 _3b: what does "midify" mean? 21:05:08 oh, modifying 21:05:18 <_3b> mathrick: means i need to proofread better, sorry :) 21:05:20 spacebat_: Actually, it compresses them to the smallest possible value. 21:05:25 hmm.. I'm trying to get McCLIM working but I get "GL is a nickname for the package CL-OPENGL". I understand what's happening but I'm not sure what's the best way to work around it. Anyone? 21:05:30 _3b: yeah, I do, that's why it's magic 21:05:40 have any of you experience with vecto? 21:06:07 _3b: the idea is to completely slurp the parent package (:KABINETT in this case) with all symbols visible in it, including internal and imported ones 21:06:20 i'm trying to draw a simple checkerboard pattern, and i'm wondering if with-canvas calls can be nested 21:06:35 <_3b> mathrick: right, i'm just wondering if any of the changes interfere with the code 21:06:59 I have a version that works just fine during runtime, but it's silly that I have to specify use-lists separately for compile-time, so I tried to clone it before the rest of the package gets compiled 21:07:00 Quadrescence: the number of permutations for a large array will be astronomical, so the number to record a particular permutation is likely to be very large 21:07:06 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-eaf0047c1ace23c9] has joined #lisp 21:07:06 -!- perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has left #lisp 21:07:11 and that's when it errors out 21:07:32 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:07:41 _3b: I guess, the question is, how and why? 21:08:00 spacebat_: It depends, really, particularly on the amount of repetition in the array. 21:08:12 hello 21:08:24 yes.. I think it has applications but not compression in general 21:08:37 I'd like to see the algorithm though (too early in the morning here) 21:09:09 spacebat_: Why not compression? It is a special case that might get good optimization. 21:09:34 that's why I said in general 21:10:56 _3b: I might've found it, sec 21:11:01 <_3b> mathrick: do the defun need to be in the eval-when? 21:11:51 _3b: yes, since I call them at compile time 21:11:58 <_3b> ah, right 21:12:15 the problem was I was removing excess USE clauses and killed :ITER too 21:12:24 <_3b> heh, oops :) 21:12:25 which I use in defining the part that does the reloading magic 21:13:10 *_3b* still thinks having the code inside the package being modified is a bad idea 21:13:26 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:01 <_3b> what happens if the cloned package has a RELOAD as well? 21:16:34 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:17:38 bytecolor [n=user@216.190.22.200] has joined #lisp 21:19:50 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251217186.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 21:21:53 _3b: panic :) 21:23:12 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:25:04 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:26:53 _3b: I will package it into a reusable blackbox later, I guess moving it into a separate :PACKAGE-MAGIC-CLONE 21:26:59 would help 21:27:17 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-eaf0047c1ace23c9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:28:01 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 21:28:03 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:18 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:31:19 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:42 Guest13814 [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 21:33:28 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F226.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:34:28 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:35:16 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:17 booyaa [n=booyaa@ip98-160-175-248.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:55 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:38:39 -!- booyaa [n=booyaa@ip98-160-175-248.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:39:57 ejs1 [n=eugen@24-124-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:05 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@24-124-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:29 rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@209-204-163-6.vpn.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:34 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:41:12 -!- newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has left #lisp 21:44:34 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:36 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:49:59 dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:23 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has quit [] 21:52:22 Qsquare [n=user@208.75.91.170] has joined #lisp 21:52:23 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:53:37 -!- Guest13814 [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit ["leaving"] 21:53:43 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 21:56:40 so, the telnet clx/opengl implememtation for sbcl is still experimental? 21:57:44 antgreen [n=green@12.187.246.48] has joined #lisp 21:57:45 do you mean opengl in ascii? 21:58:07 -!- spacebat_ is now known as spacebat 21:59:00 spacebat: No, there's a typo telent / telnet. It's the "portable" CLX. 21:59:10 nod 21:59:44 I'd say it's probably still experimental... And that I couldn't figure out how to use it, either. 21:59:46 although...surely someone's hooked up an opengl renderer to ascii. :) 22:00:01 heh, probably 22:00:19 kindasorta: http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=506320 22:00:33 nyef: nod, I couldnt get demo/gl-test.lisp to work 22:01:15 <_3b> cl-opengl probably has more recent opengl support, if you care about that sort of thing 22:01:38 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:01:40 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:18 _3b: I could try that 22:02:22 ltriant [n=luket@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:02:37 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:48 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 22:03:06 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-12221.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 22:03:44 -!- ejs [n=eugen@24-124-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:26 rich_holygoat_ [n=rnewman@12.157.84.6] has joined #lisp 22:08:18 -!- KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has quit [Success] 22:08:37 kpreid: you were looking for pattern matching in deftransform once, right? 22:08:48 pkhuong: I don't recall. 22:09:16 pkhuong: How'd the instruction printer stuff go? 22:09:26 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:42 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:48 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:50 nyef: I had to move the /i to another field, but that was it. 22:09:59 hum 22:10:01 ilc2009 is over 22:10:15 Really? It didn't work as an extra field in OP? 22:10:42 It complained about an odd number of arguments in the keyword portion 22:10:50 Hunh. 22:10:52 an extra level of nesting perhaps 22:11:01 Perhaps. 22:11:18 If it ever ends up in mainline, perhaps someone will figure it out. 22:11:21 and nobody even got strangled. :) 22:12:09 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:13:29 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 22:15:03 rich_holygoat__ [n=rnewman@209-204-163-6.vpn.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:39 from a PL design PoV, I'd say Clojure, Dave M, Shriram K & Olin S were the most interesting 22:16:08 I think a lot of people didn't understand both the limits & power of dave m's approach 22:17:35 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:36 LR(1) isn't that bad when you accumulate arbitrary objects on your "stream" being re-written, including higher-order data-structures 22:18:00 Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:29 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:34 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:18:35 rsynnott: forgot to mention, your lolcats drew a couple big laughs 22:18:37 So, Dude, you liked the conference? 22:19:24 at least from the outside it looked fun, thanks for the commentary guys 22:19:30 too bad I couldn't make it :-( 22:19:56 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:17 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 22:21:01 i had a good time 22:21:33 54.73% of the world Lisp experts in one place ;-) 22:21:36 There were some bad parts but overall I thought it was a very good conference. 22:21:49 one problem i have at conference is the quick moments in between doing something else when you see someone you want to talk to, but there isn't the time 22:21:59 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:22:07 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:22:15 In most conferences, that's usually solved by not going to any of the talks. :) 22:22:19 hah 22:22:22 there should be a lisp unconference 22:22:48 there were several people i saw who i had only met online, and i felt quite bad to say "hi, nice to see you, now i must go" 22:22:51 what would that do? 22:22:51 no hotel, no (or low) fee, no big speakers 22:23:05 so no visitors from out of town? 22:23:16 hallway collaboration 22:23:19 tents 22:23:26 *BrianRice* nods to antifuchs 22:23:28 ah, tents. okay. :) 22:23:32 check out the Chaos Computed tent camp in Germany 22:23:35 the audience are the speakers 22:23:41 foom2: it works pretty well for some topics 22:23:55 lispm: even that has big talking heads nowadays (: 22:23:57 audience == speakers is basically what the lightning talks are about, which I think worked very well 22:24:05 s/tents/couch-surfing/, too 22:24:36 certainly I'd agree more lightning talks would be a good thing 22:24:56 I'm too old for that kind of shit. 22:25:14 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:25:27 -!- rich_holygoat_ [n=rnewman@12.157.84.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:25:33 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:25:45 not everyone does the camping thing :P 22:25:53 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:25:56 if you really wanted to you could've probably just slept on a couch in CSAIL for the few days without anyone really noticing. :) 22:25:59 certainly not in Seattle where the ground's too wet most of the time :) 22:26:10 foom2: next to rms 22:26:35 ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-126-11.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:44 *BrianRice* pictures a hygiene-mob descending upon rms 22:27:18 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 22:27:35 francogre [n=franco@91.177.128.26] has joined #lisp 22:27:46 *Fare* institutes lightning talks at BLM 22:27:55 sleeping in vicinity of RMS is not recommended... 22:28:07 antifuchs: CCC has overlong talks, often 22:28:23 rich_holygoat_ [n=rnewman@12.157.84.6] has joined #lisp 22:28:40 Fare: I'm looking forward to monday, then. Last BLM I'm going to be able to get to for months. 22:28:56 nyef: wanna give a lightning talk? 22:29:04 -!- rich_holygoat__ [n=rnewman@209-204-163-6.vpn.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:29:04 I'll give you my slot 22:29:08 or add a new one 22:29:09 Not this time, I'd like to see how the format works first. 22:29:14 ok 22:29:36 -!- rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:30:26 nyef is doing so many cool things that I'm sure he could easily fill a whole evening with multiple different lightning talks all by himself :) 22:30:30 someone (dherring?) at ilc2009 noticed that since lightning talks were so short, you could rehearse them many times before you gave them, making delivery more powerful 22:30:37 one thing was different with ILC this yeart I guess 22:30:51 Fare: which is precisely the point 22:30:55 there were no reports from the 'Annual meeting of the Association of Lisp Users' 22:31:01 ianmcorvidae snored a bit during the morning talks 22:31:15 Fare: i did mine three times on the walk to the venue from the hotel 22:31:17 (as well as the strict constraint making the constraint more dense, maybe poetic) 22:31:23 i had my headphones on so people thought i was on the phone! 22:31:42 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-12221.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:48 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:31:50 -!- schoppen1auer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:31:52 What do you care what people think? 22:32:07 also, since they're so short your potential for humiliation is limited, which seems to help people decide to give a spontaneous one (: 22:32:17 especially in Cambridge -- no one's gonna hunt you down for being weird, here 22:32:19 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@p5B0BF788.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:28 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:44 proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 22:32:44 Fare: You presented xcvb, right? How was the feedback? 22:32:46 -!- ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-126-11.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:54 and conversely, the potential for getting bored a long time is limited, giving incentive for people to stay and listen 22:33:02 tcr: it was rather good 22:33:06 now I have to deliver! 22:33:15 what did the commercial vendors say about cfasls? 22:33:30 -!- proq` is now known as proqesi 22:33:35 what are 'cfasls'? 22:33:39 nothing -- they'll wait and see. 22:33:50 if it's a success, they'll probably add it 22:33:51 lispm: fasls containing compile-time effects only 22:34:02 oooh 22:34:11 clever (: 22:34:16 it's not like THAT many people have systems large enough for the question to matter 22:34:30 lispm: fasl==eval-when :load-toplevel, and cfasl==eval-when :compile-toplevel 22:34:37 Well sure they'll enable stricter enforcement of portable code 22:34:57 foom2: what would I do with it? 22:34:57 *p_l* wonders if there will be any lisp-related content during HAR2009 22:35:11 except that as I argued, in the present setting, you should almost never use :compile-toplevel without :load-toplevel 22:35:25 lispm: Compile-file bunch of files without having to compile-file+load each one until you can compile the next one 22:35:40 what's HAR2009? 22:35:42 You know what might be neat? The ability to get the output effect of compile-file with an input sequence of top-level forms instead of a file. 22:35:47 the sound filtering guy was impressive 22:35:59 using symbolic computations to restore old sound tracks 22:35:59 nyef: yes 22:36:01 Fare: it's the netherland version of CCC 22:36:09 they switch every 2 years 22:36:09 Fare: Hacking-at-Random 2009, http://www.har2009.org 22:36:30 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:36:53 Xach's talk was hilarious 22:37:11 p_l: Maybe we can get pkhuong there to do something with his latest sse stuff in SBCL? 22:37:13 what was it about ? 22:37:20 hi Fare :) 22:38:56 fe[nl]ix, what was what about? 22:38:59 p_l: I saw interrupt controller initialization, RTC/CMOS RAM access and COM port setup today, and now it's doing some stuff with floaty points so I'm back hacking on the CPU for a bit. 22:39:11 nyef: WOW 22:39:12 Xach's talk? about wigflip.com 22:39:13 Fare: xach's talk 22:40:16 Ah, no wonder this is slow: None of the ireg accessors are inlined. :-/ 22:40:57 nyef: you start scaring me 22:41:14 How so? 22:42:09 p_l: nyef was seven hours without internet access, no wonder why he hacked so successfully :) 22:42:17 nyef: I compare that progress to what I'd expect... 22:42:25 tcr: yeah, it happens :D 22:42:37 *p_l* should really by code monkeying in java right now... 22:43:04 There's actually not that much code involved, really. 22:43:39 Fare: http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/fixing-unix-linux-filenames.html 22:43:51 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:35 sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:44:50 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-235-227.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:46:09 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-4-43.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:46:46 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 22:47:41 *francogre* slaps francogre around a bit with a large trout 22:48:02 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o antifuchs 22:48:36 -!- rich_holygoat_ [n=rnewman@12.157.84.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:57 -!- francogre [n=franco@91.177.128.26] has left #lisp 22:49:35 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-24-222-0.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:38 rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@209-204-163-8.vpn.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:05 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4599.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:54:02 dwave [n=ask@212251217186.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 22:54:33 is there a way to invoke make.sh for sbcl in such a way to use a specific sbcl/core image? (in this case using the default directory layout from a SF binary download) I've set SBCL_HOME to the contrib directory, and use the src/runtime/sbcl, but I can't seem to figure out the right mojo to get it to see --core output/sbcl.core 22:56:05 tritchey_: "./make.sh /home/tritchey/sbcl-bin/bin/sbcl --core /home/tritchey/sbcl-bin/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core", I think. 22:56:18 You may need some quoting. 22:56:40 Oh, and SBCL build doesn't need contribs, so setting SBCL_HOME isn't necessary. 22:57:24 tritchey_: the entire invocation of your custom SBCL must be the first argument of make.sh 22:57:32 And don't run it from the same tree you're building or it'll fail in make-host-2 due to having overwritten the runtime. 22:58:15 something complained about being unable to find sb-posix, but at this point I'm not entirely what combination I was trying at the time 22:58:30 Ooh. HW_LD virt quad alt,vpte. -That's- new. 22:58:55 You might also need --no-userinit --no-sysinit. 22:59:30 tritchey_: http://repo.or.cz/w/gentoo-lisp-overlay.git?a=blob;f=dev-lisp/sbcl/sbcl-9999.ebuild;hb=HEAD#l123 23:00:17 as for HAR2009 - they are happy to host additional talks/lectures/hackathons/whatever, just self organize it on the grounds :) 23:00:42 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 23:02:08 Beket [n=stathis@ppp3-246.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:02:08 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:02:35 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:03:34 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-216-102.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:03:50 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-5d82d1a372e82f3f] has left #lisp 23:05:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:06:20 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251217186.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 23:06:40 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:42 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has left #lisp 23:12:35 looks like SBCL_HOME has to be set to output 23:13:29 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #lisp 23:13:49 If only I had a copy of these commercial Lisp compilers. :< 23:17:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@138.246.7.145] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:19:34 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@x250002.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:42 fe[nl]ix, not gonna happen soon 23:19:47 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:20 esp. not for backwards compat "hey, I can't access files on my old disk, nor delete them!" 23:20:42 "can't restore the backup" 23:21:15 and "oh, this is a FORBIDDEN utf8 seq" 23:21:17 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 23:21:52 or worse, bad utf16 sequence on windows 23:21:52 jestocost [n=cmell@x250008.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:22:43 but a simple utf8 decoder creates a valid character with a different canonical utf-X representation 23:23:01 etc 23:23:33 IOW, *you* cannot rely on this problem to be fixed by others 23:23:47 and you should support native pathname representation on all systems 23:24:10 (does Darwin enforce canonicalization to NFD ?) 23:25:04 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:25:19 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:08 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 23:29:38 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:29:45 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177153213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 23:32:36 Fare: not Darwin (AFAIK), but MacOSX do canonalize pathnames. 23:32:45 -!- sykopomp|work [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit ["Yow! Legally-imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED!"] 23:32:56 And I'm not sure it's NFD. 23:33:27 Does SBCL take a performance hit on FreeBSD, 64 bit? 23:33:32 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:07 Lada_AwtoWas [n=Miranda@p5B03B380.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:35:35 HET2 [n=diman@chello062178138196.3.14.tuwien.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 23:36:02 ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:13 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@177.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:36:42 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:36:46 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:08 -!- bytecolor [n=user@216.190.22.200] has left #lisp 23:39:13 Fare: http://developer.apple.com/qa/qa2001/qa1173.html ; indeed it looks like it's NFD. 23:40:13 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:43:32 Fare: good comments on the lwn.net article about that 23:43:32 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:44:54 Fare: in particular one person suggested that the bad names could be hidden from all apps but those explicitly marked as needing to see them (e.g. convmv and ls) 23:45:34 -!- Lada_AwtoWas [n=Miranda@p5B03B380.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 23:46:19 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:49:31 mooglenorph: I'm not aware of anybody testing this. do you have a particular case of slowdowns? 23:49:49 foom2: interesting idea 23:50:10 CAP_SEE_THE_GARBAGE_IN_YOUR_FILESYSTEMS 23:50:11 mooglenorph: if you do, that would be best reported to sbcl-devel 23:50:13 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 23:50:46 crink [n=crink@210.110.159.199] has joined #lisp 23:51:14 hmm, mcclim behaves bad on dragging-output with patterns and i don't really know how to approach this problem... 23:52:36 -!- foom [n=user@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["quit"] 23:52:49 -!- foom2 is now known as foom 23:59:07 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-133-68.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:59:48 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello062178138196.3.14.tuwien.teleweb.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:59:51 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A66A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"]