00:00:00 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 00:00:11 *_3b* wouldn't expect using the wrong # of arguments to work either 00:00:26 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:00:42 Oh, I didn't see that it's maphash-keys, sorry. 00:00:53 -!- cads [n=max@adsl-154-105-103.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:00:55 aggieben: I might be able to help. 00:01:06 <_3b> ChibaPet: i missed it at first glance too :) 00:01:10 Oh, and they're declaring ignore too. 00:01:20 What have you got working so far? 00:01:44 Alright, I feel better now. I'm clearly still learning. I just want to know that I'm attacking things more or less the right way. 00:02:15 I suppose I'll try to clean up the with-hash-table-iterator version as well, just to see that I can make it look not-totally-evil. 00:02:36 -!- diog3n3s [n=diog3n3s@97-118-156-192.hlrn.qwest.net] has left #lisp 00:03:07 <_3b> wish i could figure out what triggers these VerifyErrors when i try to compile nested loops 00:06:25 now: the macro debate! 00:06:31 jeremy brown to the podium 00:06:44 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.57.52] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:07:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:45 Hell, I was going to go home. I should think about going back to the conference. I thought I'd be home by now! Heh. 00:09:13 Well. Good, night, all! And thank you, _3b, for the help! 00:09:32 -!- ChibaPet [n=mason@64.206.6.254] has quit [] 00:16:24 ah, nice, works on ccl as well 00:18:08 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B9D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:35 his thesis seems to be: don't write macros, write compilers 00:18:55 ok, this guy is annoying me now 00:18:58 rsynnott: nice article. 00:19:08 jrockway: j. brown? 00:19:15 yeah 00:19:28 "i need 15 minutes worth of reason, so let's make some up" 00:19:35 :) 00:20:11 the end was funny, at least :P 00:20:13 not as annoying as everyone's "questions" from the other session, though 00:20:16 heh 00:20:38 heh, true that 00:20:55 windows porting will take some work, but should be possible. 00:21:17 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 00:21:38 http://imaginary-project.net/wiki/building_qyoto_for_windows has the story for the csharp bindings. 00:21:43 I like how they have these patches to make it all work, and then step 7 is "at this point you might need to fix one or two compile errors" 00:23:20 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:24:50 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:00 drewc: shift/reset without (globally) modifying the control flow; I used NLXes and dynamic variables, actually. 00:26:02 haha 00:28:26 jfm3 [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 00:28:42 I just heard RPG call GLS "quux". 00:28:49 heh 00:28:59 deFMAcro? 00:29:03 That was worth the price of admission. 00:29:22 jfm3: are there recordings? 00:29:40 something in the form of "hello my name is rpg and I pronounce quux as quux"? 00:29:56 preferably in swedish, as well? 00:29:58 kwucks 00:30:09 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:30:23 -!- jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:30:32 pkhuong: i've spent the last hour or so reading your CA.PVK.CL-CONTINUATIONS code.. did you ever give that presentation to mslug? 00:30:49 crink [n=crink@210.110.159.199] has joined #lisp 00:31:52 drewc: Yes, a long time ago. I've used the same approach sans codewalker in a couple smaller projects. will probably be easier to read. 00:32:26 just ignore the serialisable closure noise. 00:32:56 yay, more "questions" 00:33:00 i was there too, but got lost int the serialisable closure noise :) 00:33:04 this is what made admission worth the price 00:33:27 pkhuong: i have to admit that the non-codewalked approach appeals to me somewhat. 00:33:30 hah 00:33:43 s/sfunction/function/, pretty much. 00:34:44 pkhuong: is the technique based on marshall's "stackhack" paper? 00:34:47 yes! 00:35:01 ah good, then i might be able to understand it :) 00:35:13 and it saves me from implementing it myself! 00:35:24 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:35:29 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:35:31 I think the main difference is that I cons the ``stack frames'' ahead of time instead of using (slow on SBCL) throw/catch. 00:35:49 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:50 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:04 I discussed the issue of continuations for webapps with a couple people, and we think that a constraint-solving-like approach (the user as an oracle of facts) might be better suited to the web. Still extremely foggy though (: 00:37:26 why does cl-cairo fail to update ? 00:37:30 with clbuild 00:37:37 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:52 is the site moved ? 00:37:52 sepult: because of whatever the error message says. 00:39:48 pkhuong: i've considered that myself.. using a cells-alike and modelling constraints rather than control-flow. 00:39:51 <_3b> not too bad i guess, my bytecode rand # gen is only about 5x slower than the native one in flash player :p 00:40:18 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student167-200.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:50 <_3b> about 10x slower than the same thing implemented in sbcl 00:43:08 jfactor [n=jfactor@student167-200.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 00:43:23 jfactor: another hampster! 00:43:26 we're taking over. 00:43:32 yep 00:43:40 alobar was in here the other day, as well 00:43:45 Soon, Hampshire will be the mecca of common lisp. 00:44:02 we'll start outnumbering those MIT snobs soon! 00:44:11 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-04909130f294d2db] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:44:18 I really don't get it. 00:44:36 I mean, I'm not complaining, but I still don't get it. 00:44:50 mooglenorph: I don't either. I'm tempted to blame Lee, but he's not why either of us started with CL... 00:44:51 sykopomp: I think I've seen 5 umontreal students (once). 00:45:16 I think it has to do with Lee, actually. 00:45:22 Because he attracts AI people 00:45:34 and AI people tend to want to learn lisp because of history 00:45:45 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.72] has joined #lisp 00:45:48 ianmcorvidae: I was a film student, though, and I was learning lisp before I even met with Lee :P 00:46:03 well, you're a random exception :P 00:46:18 aquateen [n=chris@athedsl-227885.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 00:46:19 I'm not an AI person. 00:46:32 I started learning lisp the summer before my first semester because I wanted to read Lee's PushGP code 00:46:32 we prefer to call them conditions (-: 00:46:55 mooglenorph: well, what got you learning lisp? 00:46:58 antifuchs: hah 00:47:07 antifuchs: :D 00:47:14 SICP. Fantastic textbook. 00:47:48 but why did you read that? Just a random recommendation or something related to Hampshire (or, at least, your reasons for going to hampshire)? 00:48:22 I went to hampshire to avoid taking the required courses at UMASS. 00:48:31 (ie, anything that didn't have to do with CS or math) 00:48:32 mitochondria n stuff 00:48:52 mooglenorph got -me- into lisp :-\ 00:48:59 yeah, mitochondria are totally related to macros. 00:49:03 see that's probably the biggest thing 00:49:06 people teaching other people 00:49:18 Yeah. Hampshire encourages that. 00:49:46 no doubt my evangelism has at least *contributed* to the lisp learning of alobar, jfactor, and melongrower (who I think also came in here at one point) 00:49:48 Speaking of. I'm working through "Concrete Mathematics" next semester. Anyone who wants should join in. 00:49:57 ooh. I might do that. 00:50:01 http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM 00:50:02 Xof: while I seem to be experiencing a bout of productivity, uses APD's splicing function to implement pattern-matching in IR1. 00:50:17 mooglenorph: will 'concrete mathematics' help me understand wtf a radian is? 00:50:19 cobol on cogs is great, though XD; 00:50:39 sykopomp: it's just a random real. That's the beauty. 00:51:51 benny` [n=benny@i577A00F3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:52:31 ooh yay 00:52:45 pkhuong: mind = blown 00:52:51 Sussman is coming down and explaining why MIT is switching to Python from Scheme. 00:53:16 pkhuong: I didn't take a single math course since pre-calc in high school, so my math went way downhill by the time I started learning to program during my senior year. 00:53:35 ianmcorvidae: Haha, that should be interesting. I'm sure they have a good reason, though. 00:53:42 specially if sussman is going out there to justify it. 00:53:53 yeah; we're having a "discussion" about macros and the topic came up 00:54:12 not really a discussion, mostly just a bunch of people throwing out opinions without very much getting done (imho) 00:56:55 dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has joined #lisp 00:58:08 kmp says macros = democracy 00:58:47 hey, better than discussing the relative merits of round vs. square brackets 00:58:55 And he just used FSF to defend macros? I sense an apocalypse. 00:58:59 I hate square brackets. 00:59:03 freelab [n=freelab@58.61.223.77] has joined #lisp 00:59:04 they're too hard to type 00:59:14 are macros for making it easier to read, or easier to write? 00:59:16 (as was done briefly in the q&a of mike sperber's talk at ilc07) 00:59:37 <_3b> jfm3: both 00:59:42 jfm3: both. They're for making syntactic abstractions. 01:00:25 ianmcorvidae: oh hey, did that talk about macros in a language with syntax already happen? 01:00:29 that sounded really interesting. 01:00:44 yeah, that was earlier today 01:00:49 it was interesting, at least 01:01:47 macros are treated sometimes like Lisp's Last Stand(tm) 01:02:20 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:03:44 ianmcorvidae: was that Moon? 01:03:52 yeah 01:04:31 i spent a while earlier today looking through PLOT, but my eyes got really tired tring to read the syntax :) 01:04:39 yeah, I hate the syntax 01:04:57 He's essentially saying they changed to Python because it's libraries are incomprehensible, and they want to teach students how to get working results by poking at the incomprehensible mess. 01:05:11 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB!"] 01:05:38 smart 01:05:52 that's the right thing to say at ILC :) 01:05:56 you could get the same results from any clocc library, I suppose (: 01:06:59 but there are rather few of them 01:07:02 Okay no 01:07:06 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A09B8.versanet.de] has quit [Success] 01:07:11 He's essentially saying they changed to Python because it is essentially what you need to know to proceed with their robot curriculum, which in turn is what teaches students the science of poking at incomprehensible messes. 01:07:50 He says this decision is probably right, but he hates it because he is an old fart. 01:08:10 He likes instead of incomprehensible messes, he likes building things from smaller fully comprehensible parts. 01:12:29 It's legos vrs. micronauts all over again. 01:13:27 *ianmcorvidae* heads out to the numeric BoF; probably will be more informative 01:13:41 probably, indeed 01:13:56 i like listening to the speakers tho 01:15:05 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:15:54 chris2__ [n=chris@p5B16B113.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 01:16:44 hmm, I'm kinda regretting my decision to punch out early afternoon, eat food, drink beer, and hit the gym... or maybe I'm not. 01:19:24 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:20:26 -!- chris2__ [n=chris@p5B16B113.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:20:36 to be fair, I think python is a fairly decent gateway to lisp. 01:20:53 Ruby is a better one 01:21:36 I really dislike the perl-like syntax, but that's a pet peeve. 01:21:41 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@p5B168466.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:48 but I think you might be right. 01:22:03 Gateway? Golly, I never thought of Lisp as analogous to heroin. 01:22:25 it's pretty addicting 01:22:58 "a design patern is an indication of a deficiency of language design, whether in the compiler or in macros" -- scheme 01:22:59 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:22:59 er 01:23:02 "A design pattern is an indication of a deficiency in the language." -gls 01:23:03 steele ;) 01:23:14 ah you probably have it better 01:23:25 I can't say I disagree. 01:24:05 no I think you got it right 01:25:22 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.72] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:25:34 the shenanigans are becoming entertaining 01:27:17 oh dear i can't even quote that one ;) 01:27:30 rpg described how sussman's ass was puckering 01:27:40 indicating he was upset 01:27:50 as rpg could see him from behind as he was adressing us 01:28:43 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 01:32:19 hah 01:32:36 manusferre [n=opera@pc-22-168-160-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:21 -!- pjb` [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:34:23 pjb` [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:40 "Audience: Is poetry a menace? RPG: Yes, it is" 01:38:27 lol 01:42:01 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:50:42 Xof: good luck with Marianne's recovery 01:52:26 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 01:55:24 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:27 -!- jfm3 [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:20 azhar [n=Azhar@lawn-128-61-31-125.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 02:08:23 -!- azhar [n=Azhar@lawn-128-61-31-125.lawn.gatech.edu] has left #lisp 02:08:57 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCDB9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 02:11:42 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-169-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:19:10 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:23:08 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-137-157.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 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[n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:48:23 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:02 ditto for me Xof 02:51:46 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:53:37 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B09D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:56:24 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:59:45 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:00:46 fufie_ [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 03:02:33 freelab_ [n=freelab@58.61.214.96] has joined #lisp 03:02:45 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B3BE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:03:12 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:04:13 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit ["testing"] 03:04:53 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 03:05:15 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:05:54 -!- freelab_ [n=freelab@58.61.214.96] has quit [Client Quit] 03:06:09 freelab_ [n=freelab@58.61.214.96] has joined #lisp 03:06:14 zen_balrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-69-150-85-11.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:29 -!- freelab_ is now known as kenyao 03:07:39 -!- fufie__ [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:11:26 wow. Macros are really easy to write once you write a couple and get used to it. 03:13:03 -!- kenyao [n=freelab@58.61.214.96] has quit ["My God! Gone..."] 03:14:23 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.66.203] has quit [Success] 03:14:30 a-s [n=user@92.80.66.203] has joined #lisp 03:14:51 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:14:54 Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 03:15:21 -!- aquateen [n=chris@athedsl-227885.home.otenet.gr] has quit [] 03:15:34 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:39 kenyao [n=kenyao@58.61.214.96] has joined #lisp 03:16:22 -!- freelab [n=freelab@58.61.223.77] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:17:00 -!- kenyao [n=kenyao@58.61.214.96] has quit [Client Quit] 03:17:15 kenyao [n=kenyao@58.61.214.96] has joined #lisp 03:21:41 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.213.204] has joined #lisp 03:21:47 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:21:51 alexbobp [n=alex@ppp-70-253-65-66.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:57 Does lisp have currying? 03:23:20 I believe there's something for it in alexandria 03:28:40 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:40 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:29:45 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:30 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:31:39 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-206.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:54 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:25 or just roll your own. Ultimatly it is just a function that returns a lambda. A macro can make the syntax more palatable. 03:38:14 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 03:39:49 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has left #lisp 03:39:57 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:09 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-68-173-124-55.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:45:13 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:45:17 psyllo [n=psyllo@cpe-76-168-0-196.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:45:45 -!- kenyao [n=kenyao@58.61.214.96] has quit ["My God! Gone..."] 03:46:13 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:25 kenyao [n=kenyao@58.61.214.96] has joined #lisp 03:49:08 thom_ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:33 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 03:51:26 pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:23 Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 03:55:21 if I want all instances of a certain class to end up in a certain list, is it a bad idea to just make an :after method for initialize-instance that pushes it into that list?... 03:55:51 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-13-156.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:55:58 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:56:20 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:59:11 Strange I would say. 04:00:29 -!- Guest23353 [n=yong@61.181.247.170] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:02:07 It's sort of letting a object manage a collection of itself. 04:04:29 xb 04:13:35 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:19:07 -!- pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:19:49 pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:52 I totally do stuff like that. 04:21:19 adding things to their "special data structure" with an :after method on make-instance 04:21:32 (this says nothing about whether or not it is a good idea to do so) 04:31:01 alexbobp - currying makes a lot of sense in Haskell. It doesn't make a lot of sense in pretty much anything else. You want 'partial application', which currying is a narrow form of. That is to say, you want a lambda form and maybe some cute syntax. CL has everything you need for cute syntax. 04:32:57 -!- psyllo [n=psyllo@cpe-76-168-0-196.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:36:25 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:38:04 Good morning. 04:39:12 alexbobp: why do you ask? 04:41:08 sykopomp: With that method, you will mostlikely have a space leak because the list will hold on to unused instances. You might consider a weak table of some kind. 04:41:32 [just reading scrollbacks] 04:41:56 beach: the objects are manually deleted when I no longer need them... but I ended up not writing the methods after all. 04:42:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:43:26 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:42 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-68-173-124-55.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:56:45 -!- rich_hol1goat is now known as rich_holygoat 05:00:20 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:00:31 new library released by us http://www.cliki.net/anardb 05:00:39 Atomic, consistent, isolated, durable multi-process safe Lisp object serialisation. 05:01:12 -!- pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:01:27 oh neat 05:01:31 ilitirit: who is 'us'? 05:01:41 pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:50 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:58 ilitirit: why not AllegroCache? 05:01:59 well i wrote it but at work so it's MSI 05:02:01 -!- crod [n=cmell@x250009.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:02:16 we used AllegroCache for a while but it was too slow 05:02:54 the serialisation is actually more or less just dumping make-load-forms 05:03:05 (though more portable) 05:03:33 -!- benny` is now known as benny 05:03:35 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:05:46 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:08:03 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:18 also with a bit of hassle you can change-class 05:12:51 okay, this is a bit confusing. Maybe I have my terminology wrong. In graphical programming, events are things like keyboard events that you then handle and do stuff with. There are also events in the sense of having a single global event-loop running that you can send (code) events to, which are then all executed, effectively making the behavior of your program asynchronous when needed.... right? 05:13:10 or am I making one of these things up? Having both of these in a single app is confusing. 05:15:03 ilitirit: cool stuff. Kudos to MSI. 05:15:15 hey pkhuong 05:15:21 i saw your thing about sse 05:15:33 i am mucking about with sse in allegro 05:15:44 in particular the sse2/sse3 packed doubles 05:16:38 Adrien did mention you were doing interesting stuff ;) 05:16:44 however GCC has an apparently awesome instruction scheduler, and allegro barely knows about these instructions 05:16:56 so we have to do a lot by hand 05:17:19 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:23 so you know mr pierard? he left in a stress festival 05:17:40 IME, scheduling isn't as important as avoiding useless instructions, e.g. fusing loads and arithmetic in a single operation. 05:17:51 yeah we have to do that by hand too 05:18:05 whereas gcc does the fusing automatically 05:18:14 crod [n=cmell@x250023.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 05:18:53 a dynamic programming instruction emitter can easily take care of that. 05:20:13 do you have such an emitter all ready to go? 05:20:37 I can post the code. It's barely commented and all the reports are in french. 05:21:50 if it's not too much trouble it'd be nice to look at it 05:22:06 I'm uploading it now. 05:24:33 http://www.discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/ift6232/kernel-compiler/{codegen,codegen-patterns}.scm 05:24:49 -!- pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:59 It's an adaptation of aho & johnson's algorithm, (iirc) 05:29:14 thanks 05:30:22 prabuinet [n=prabuine@122.165.28.253] has joined #lisp 05:31:02 it seems that most lisp guru's are Ph.D holders 05:31:43 (maybe coming to a DSL in SBCL soon, but the memoir is calling ;) 05:32:37 it's an interesting idea 05:33:27 i was coming at it as if it were a problem of instruction scheduling to make best use of the units 05:33:45 but this would allow much more naive code and actually would have saved a bit of thinking 05:33:53 once it is up and running 05:34:12 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:34:14 i was doing it all by hand :-( 05:35:20 The SSE units seem fairly dumb re reordering, but the main goal, once you have non-sucky instruction emission, is to focus on memory accesses. 05:35:43 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-67-160-171-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:35:58 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:38:28 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CFBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:55 memory latency is indeed king in these beknighted times 05:39:17 I'm having some trouble with ccl. (merge-pathnames "some-dir/" (ccl:current-directory-name)) returns #P"/home/some-dir/sykopomp" :\ 05:41:59 sanguinev [n=sanguine@116.197.145.49] has joined #lisp 05:42:05 tack an "/" on the end of (ccl:current-directory-name) -- it's not a pathname but a string 05:42:21 (i think) 05:43:10 ah, so it is 05:47:11 Jacob_ [n=yong@61.181.247.170] has joined #lisp 05:47:19 ilitirit: thank you 05:47:39 -!- Jacob_ is now known as Guest17573 05:47:52 no worries -- i want more people to use ccl, it's great 05:48:35 yeah, it feels good to have a portable app, too. 05:49:12 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@80.31.143.142] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:49:34 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 05:49:44 kidd2 [n=kidd@80.31.143.142] has joined #lisp 05:50:05 the benefits of being able to run your program on two entirely different environments are great 05:50:24 that's three, once I manage to figure out why ccl is locking up :) 05:51:03 one thing that buggered me up is the stream locking in ccl (by default only the thread that created a stream can write to it) 05:51:34 i don't disagree with the idea, it's a good idea, it just crashed my blog ;-) 05:51:43 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:58 spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-f9170ba7015dba4f] has joined #lisp 05:53:05 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 05:54:10 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:27 -!- spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-f9170ba7015dba4f] has left #lisp 05:56:25 well, that's immensely unhelpful -- compiling an image and running an executable with ccl makes the app hardlock after a few seconds, but running it through slime isn't a problem. Maybe I'm doing something wrong in save-application? 05:57:59 -!- bsummersett [n=bsummers@c-98-209-19-237.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:58:53 sykopomp pasted "ccl:save-application" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77516 05:59:16 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:59:44 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:45 how about running the app without slime? 05:59:58 without saving the image, just start it from the command line 06:00:01 does it crash then? 06:00:39 nope 06:01:50 do you use the FFI? 06:02:09 cffi, yes 06:02:53 You might want to look for implementation specific notes on reloading dynamic libraries 06:03:15 good catch pkhuong 06:03:41 cffi except on allegro is a little annoying about dynamic libraries with saved images 06:04:15 luis has an idea to fix it but nobody has implemented it 06:04:41 pkhuong: I'll look around, but the libraries I need are all at least initially linking. It might actually be an issue with lispbuilder-sdl 06:05:33 sykopomp annotated #77516 "full call" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77516#1 06:07:23 http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter12.6.html#Using-Shared-Libraries 06:07:34 CCL keeps track of all libraries that have been opened in a lisp session. When a saved application is first started, an attempt is made to reopen all libraries that were open when the image was saved, and an attempt is made to resolve all entry points that had been referenced when the image was saved. Either of these attempts can fail "quietly", leaving some entry points in an unresolved state. 06:08:43 the fix for cffi would involve closing all libraries before save-image, and properly reopening all the library definitions with cffi:load-foreign-library on startup 06:09:16 ah, let me try that, thank you! 06:09:40 this problem is actually not specific to ccl, but to many lisps 06:10:22 though a hard lockup is probably the worst response I've seen 06:10:26 I really like ccl. It seems like a pretty nice midpoint between sbcl and clisp, although that's just my impression. It's pretty solid. 06:10:30 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:10:51 it seems generally really professional, and i like the design choices 06:11:01 don't get me started on allegro ;) 06:13:37 -!- xuanwu__ [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:13:38 -!- xuanwu_ [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:13:38 -!- xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:13:43 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:14:35 spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 06:16:44 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:37 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [] 06:30:12 good morning Krystof. 06:30:17 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 06:30:33 good morning 06:33:13 -!- mejja_ [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:35:02 I think I've got pattern matching + rewrite for IR1 (based on APD's splicing function). There's a problem though: IR1-opt is bottom-up. 06:36:54 Krystof: congratulations 06:37:05 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.213.204] has quit [] 06:39:20 Krystof: and good luck. 06:40:11 what's all the congratulating about?... 06:40:29 sykopomp: read planet.lisp.org 06:40:49 aww 06:40:53 Krystof: congratulations :) 06:41:08 -!- PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:41:34 -!- rey_ [i=pdewacht@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:42:20 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 06:43:42 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:23 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:44:35 PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 06:44:43 -!- prabuinet [n=prabuine@122.165.28.253] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 06:45:49 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:45:54 -!- PissedNumlock is now known as Numlock 06:46:38 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:47:19 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 06:47:23 -!- Numlock is now known as PissedNumlock 06:47:36 -!- moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:47:59 moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 06:49:37 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 06:49:41 Good morning. 06:50:24 mornin' beach :) 06:50:26 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 06:55:55 adityo_ [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 06:55:55 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:56:26 hello 06:56:29 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit [Client Quit] 06:57:14 That was a short visit. 06:59:07 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 06:59:22 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-235-227.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 07:01:52 hello adityo 07:03:04 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:05:01 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.247.240] has joined #lisp 07:06:55 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:07:07 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:07:19 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:10:05 -!- crink [n=crink@210.110.159.199] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:10:09 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.246.1] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:15:35 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:15:52 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:16:28 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:59 hello 07:17:15 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CFBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:17:26 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:18:30 crink [n=crink@210.110.159.199] has joined #lisp 07:20:05 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:21:07 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.165.2.126] has joined #lisp 07:21:56 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:26:25 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-48.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 07:28:26 mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca98.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:32:17 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:40 good morning 07:32:54 ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.133] has joined #lisp 07:34:47 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 07:36:16 cirquitz [n=cirquitz@203.199.114.33] has joined #lisp 07:37:09 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:38:13 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-9560.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 07:39:44 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:27 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.32] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:41:46 hello mvilleneuve 07:43:04 On my machine, I get SLIME-mode of emacs and the cl indentatio nfunction automatically, without putting anything in particular in my .emacs, however, some of the students here don't. I suspect those two problem have the same oorigin, but I don't really know what that origin would be. Any ideas? 07:43:22 global emacs-config 07:43:54 guaqua: can you be more specific? 07:44:02 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:45:23 plage: are these people on different computers? 07:45:30 do they have different set of libraries installed? 07:45:39 if they have, some might not have slime 07:46:13 They do have slime. I can put in in SLIME mode manually. 07:47:18 if they don't have something especially nasty that emptied their library search paths in .emacs, they should all get it working automatically 07:51:25 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 07:55:09 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:56:46 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:59:11 That's what I thought as well. 08:03:21 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 08:07:44 g'day 08:11:30 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 08:15:45 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:15:50 good morning 08:17:53 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 08:20:50 Kenjin_ [n=Kenjin@242-29.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 08:21:29 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-222.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:22:15 -!- Kenjin_ [n=Kenjin@242-29.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 08:24:38 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:25:30 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:26:42 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:27:05 hi, tell me, is there native 64bit lisp? 08:28:05 sbcl and ccl both do 64bit 08:28:43 ccl you mean openmcl? 08:28:53 sykopomp: ? 08:29:19 ok 08:29:47 yes. Clozure 08:30:14 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 08:32:13 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 08:37:47 -!- cirquitz [n=cirquitz@203.199.114.33] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:38:02 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:40:05 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 08:41:33 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 08:42:36 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:45:10 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:45:59 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 08:46:31 So should I just tell them to put (setq lisp-indnet-function 'common-lisp-indent-function) in the .emacs? 08:46:39 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:46:42 and an after-hook on lisp-mode? 08:47:17 It worries me that I don't know the reason why it is not working as expected. 08:48:27 plage: I can observe these kinds of problem with other emacs packages too. I'd suspect dynamic bindings. 08:48:52 -!- pjb`` [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:49:32 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:51:08 pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:55 minion: logs 08:54:56 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 08:55:45 plage: Are your students supposed to use Slime? 08:57:09 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:18 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:57:30 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:57:36 plage: They have to put (slime-setup) in their .emacs to hook into lisp-indent-function. Though they better place (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in their .emacs. (Assuming they use a recent Slime version, and not the 2.0 tarball) 08:59:41 -!- Guest17573 [n=yong@61.181.247.170] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:00:46 Harag [n=phil@196.2.98.168] has joined #lisp 09:01:11 hello ppls 09:02:01 Sometimes I collect all the symbols in an emacs image to compare their values with those in another emacs image, and despite not seeing any significant difference, I have different behavior of the images... 09:02:40 There's a lot of state in emacs. 09:04:22 -!- crink [n=crink@210.110.159.199] has left #lisp 09:04:30 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:05:07 I want to write a "with-blah (body)" type method and expose "variables" used internally by the with method to the "body" ...is it possible and has some one got a simple example for me please? 09:06:16 Better write (with-blah (var1 var2) body...) 09:06:45 Let the client of the macro decide the name of the variables, it's easier and safer this way. 09:08:31 Also, I would provide these variable with new bindings to avoid body messing with the variables of the code generated by the macro: (defmacro with-blah ((v1 v2) &body body) (let ((mv1 (gensym)) (mv2 (gensym))) `(let ((,mv1 ...) (,mv2 ...)) ... (let ((,v1 ,mv1) (,v2 ,mv2)) ,@body) ...))) 09:08:53 |Trickster| [i=Trickste@84.42.57.212] has joined #lisp 09:08:54 H4ns [n=Hans@87.187.162.19] has joined #lisp 09:09:16 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:10:21 is (v1 v2) a variable list or fixed? 09:10:50 Harag: in this example, it's fixed, but you may have a list of variables if you need them. 09:11:02 ((&rest variables) &body body) 09:11:41 There's with-slots as an example. 09:11:48 clhs with-slots 09:11:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_slts.htm 09:12:23 ok thanx 09:12:45 "confidentiality can be maintained in all circumstances. An automatic 09:12:45 confidentiality disclaimer generated by your IT system will not, of itself, be 09:12:45 regarded as binding on the Ministry. 09:12:47 " 09:13:05 another strike in the war against pointless email footers 09:13:46 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:13:54 I doubt we will see footers three times longer than content disappear soon... 09:14:33 I fear that sooner or later my boss will ask me to implement them on our work emails 09:14:57 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:07 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:08 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-206.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:43 pjb: how would you rebind (&rest variables) ? 09:17:17 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:17:27 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:20 *michaelw* reads about Dave Moon's PLOT 09:20:09 what is the significance of &body in (&body body) ...I have seen it before and used it monkey see monkey do style but never really tried to understand it before 09:20:48 Harag: it's like &rest except only macros can use it 09:21:04 Harag: check out the macro lambda-list section of the hyperspec for an explanation 09:21:13 thanx 09:21:17 Harag: &body is the same as &rest, but it hints the ide that the rest actually is code that would be indented differently from regular parameters. 09:22:05 clhs 3.4.4 09:22:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dd.htm 09:22:08 there you go (: 09:22:52 michaelw: is there a link to PLOT resources somewhere? 09:24:13 stassats [n=stassats@91.122.99.205] has joined #lisp 09:24:20 Harag: the question would be what you want to bind to these variables, but assuming you have values for them: 09:25:11 Harag: (let ((mvars (mapcar (lambda (x) (gensym (string x))) variables))) `(let ,(mapcar (function list) variables mvars) ,@body)) 09:25:41 Beket [n=stathis@adsl-251-229.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 09:26:15 Of course, you have to bind the values to the symbols in mvars. 09:26:31 I have values for them and I am trying to hide from the user of the macro how those values are derived 09:27:28 This pattern for rebinding the variables for the user is mostly useful when the internal variables are reused (such as in a loop). 09:27:37 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:28 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-2-134.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:31:54 thanx for the help 09:34:40 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-206.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:42 I am full of curiosity today ...lol .....is there a macro equavilant for DEFGENERIC? 09:35:18 Harag: no. But you could implement something like that. 09:35:38 you can have methods create the macro expansion data 09:35:55 In general, macros need a richer pattern matching than generic dispatch. 09:36:13 true, but for the cases where it works, it's ok (: 09:36:26 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:37:12 You can write (defmacro m (&whole w) (cond ((match w p1) ...) ((match w p2) ...)) think if it equivalent to (defgeneric m (w) (:method ((self p1) ..)) (:method ((self p2)) ...)) 09:39:37 antifuchs: http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/PLOT/index.html 09:39:44 "enjoy" :) 09:40:12 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.246.74] has joined #lisp 09:40:16 ok that is a mouth full it will take me some time to grok all that...thanx 09:40:19 antifuchs: none that I know besides 09:40:41 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 09:40:51 ah, cmm beat me to it 09:40:59 thanks 09:43:56 -!- gh7d395pi69wd [n=gh7d395p@unaffiliated/gh7d395pi69wd] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:44:36 -!- msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:45:53 I once implemented generic macros, i.e. some syntactic sugar to store generic functions into MACRO-FUNCTION. 09:46:47 -!- Beket [n=stathis@adsl-251-229.diodos.auth.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:46:47 We should try to promote PLOT as much as we can, just to break Ruby. And hope that when people are fed up to change programming languages every few years, they'll eventually stick to CL. 09:47:14 why would you want to break ruby? 09:47:30 Because I have to use ruby instead of Lisp at work. 09:47:42 so do I 09:47:43 pjb: wrong work? 09:47:53 Yes. 09:48:04 you might consider breaking your product. that way, you may get to switch programming languages 09:48:07 berndj [n=berndj@dsl-245-184-113.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:48:11 along with a few other factors 09:48:27 what's so horrible about ruby 09:48:29 may be easier than trying to break a programming language and attached community 09:48:45 tombom: it's not lisp 09:48:50 no macro 09:48:52 obviously 09:48:57 not homoiconic 09:49:10 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 09:49:12 "matzacred" lisp 09:51:06 oh. 09:51:20 <|Trickster|> all languages tend to mimic lisp 09:51:35 I was thinking you'd say that common things result in unreadable or unmaintainable code 09:52:06 these things are far worse, of course 09:53:39 re programming in ruby: it could be worse! still, that's like saying "meh, it's only a finger that i lost in that thar bandsaw. could be worse!" 09:54:36 "What doesn't kill you will make you stronger" 09:55:32 <|Trickster|> Friedrich Nietzsche 09:55:34 <|Trickster|> (c) 09:55:57 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.247.240] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:57:15 stassats: this is obviously false. Those "philosophers"... 09:58:49 Talk about neurosic disorders, dying perception etc. 09:58:53 neurotic 09:59:34 It's only true if you apply a uselessly wide definition of killing. 09:59:38 <|Trickster|> in case of nuclear war u can mutate in fish 09:59:54 <|Trickster|> maybe in small fish 10:03:37 Just replace it with "What makes you stronger makes you stronger." 10:04:17 <|Trickster|> tautology 10:04:34 Was about to say. The worth of those "philosophers"... 10:05:16 Tautologies have nothing to hide. 10:05:35 Do they have anything to teach? 10:05:49 <|Trickster|> new latin words 10:06:04 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA152.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:06:20 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@87.187.162.19] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:06:22 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 10:06:29 <|Trickster|> relative new of course 10:06:43 pjb: like with everything, you have to do the looking and weeding out the useless. also, i'm not sure that teachers teach, so much as students learn 10:07:20 me, i like nietzsche. yes, he has some kooky ideas re women (baggage from living in the 19th century, i guess), but he also has some stuff that resonated with me 10:07:46 what i get out of him might not be what he intended to teach, mind you. *shrug* 10:07:46 <|Trickster|> what the stuff? 10:07:55 <|Trickster|> about religion? 10:08:26 with the proviso that it's been a few years since i read his books, i don't think nietzsche had much time for religion 10:08:32 Well I guess you'd have to read more of them directly than what is taught about them in general, but nonetheless, at the time I had to study philosophers, I was finding much more ideas in SF books than in philosophical works. 10:08:33 oh well, look what i did with my quote 10:08:37 "what doesn't kill us, cripples us" 10:08:45 jewel [n=jewel@41.242.133.68] has joined #lisp 10:08:53 "How to have a really bad moustache." 10:08:56 i in particular like the "man is something to be overcome" - where i interpret "man" as being "me" - the continual struggle to improve oneself 10:09:20 "stuff that makes us work really hard often makes us tougher" 10:09:40 "there's no substitute for experience" 10:10:21 you know, presenting deep wisdom is accessible terms can be hard 10:10:42 also, rather pointess 10:10:50 *pointless 10:11:13 People just like to make things complicated. 10:11:45 right. it is easy: '(ruby python c++ java) => shit, lisp => the cool. 10:14:25 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-83-69.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:15:25 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-20-9.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:41 air is good. competition is bad. I like jello 10:16:56 CATS. CATS ARE NICE 10:17:48 <_3b> looks like gl 3.1 spec is out, guess ishould push for cl-opengl adding 3.0 support at some point :) 10:20:22 yo, people! I'm reading "Little lisper". What is s-expression? Would you give me an example? I'm a bit confused. 10:20:38 (+ 3 4) 10:20:40 or maybe definition 10:21:00 npoektop: try google 10:21:19 npoektop: just entering "s-expression" there will give you lots of useful information. 10:22:31 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 10:22:50 google rules. thanx 10:27:50 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-95-182.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 10:27:55 hi 10:28:09 yo 10:30:47 I've just read about s-expressions. Did I get it right? S-exp is atom, or list of atoms, or list of s-exps? It's everything I could write in lisp? 10:31:00 Tordek [n=tordek@host180.190-227-33.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 10:31:09 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-9560.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:31:52 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-78-217.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:31:56 npoektop: that's correct. 10:32:03 npoektop: "list of sexp" covers "list of atoms" 10:32:21 lisp data and lisp programs are all s-expressions and nothing else. 10:33:49 npoektop: notice that a lisp atom like a chemical one may not be atomic: a string or a structure is not atomic (you can change a character or a slot) but it is an atom, meaning it's not a CONS cell. 10:35:38 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:36:17 s-exp has so confusing name ) 10:36:52 i expected something special ) 10:37:32 thanx 10:37:58 s-expr for "symbolic expression" 10:39:14 there is also m-exp 10:39:30 npoektop: People generally seem to expect something special from lisp too (not just the s-exp) :) 10:42:04 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 10:42:38 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:15 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-20-9.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:43:26 hi, got a small problem with clbuild 10:43:52 before clbuild, I was able to (asdf-oos 'asdf:load-op) a module located in the current directory 10:44:03 that's cool when I'm developping 10:44:06 now I can't anymore 10:44:15 is there something to do in order to allow this ? 10:44:31 bernd_ [n=berndj@dsl-245-184-113.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:44:39 yes, change your asdf:*central-registry* 10:44:39 galdor: you should be able to add "." to asdf:*central-registry* 10:45:16 where should I add it ? 10:45:20 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:45:27 I mean, ~/.sbclrc isn't loaded anymore with clbuild 10:46:05 (clbuild lisp seems to disable the debug mode too :/) 10:46:12 galdor: there is an option to make clbuild load ~/.sbclrc, but i don't know it. :) 10:46:30 SETF_CENTRAL_REGISTRY=yes 10:46:31 galdor: it should be in the documentation, or you can search the channel logs. it was discussed here recently 10:46:32 eheh 10:46:40 setting it to no seems ok 10:46:49 H4ns: ah thank you, gonna search in the historic 10:46:55 -!- berndj [n=berndj@dsl-245-184-113.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:51:49 I get a "make.sh: 111: time: not found" when I i do " ./clbuild compile-implementation sbcl" ...anybody got any idea what this is about ...and yes time is installed on my system 10:51:59 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:52:07 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:53:10 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:53:23 well, you can remove time 10:53:27 attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.189.132] has joined #lisp 10:53:50 from the make.sh? 10:53:57 yes 10:54:08 it won't hurt 10:54:46 but perhaps, that's because time is not in the PATH for make.sh 10:54:46 thanx 10:55:02 _Trickster_ [i=Trickste@84.42.57.212] has joined #lisp 10:55:30 and in bash and zsh, time is built-in 10:56:08 maybe that's because you think that you have time, but /bin/sh has no 10:56:54 $ time 10:56:54 real 0m0.000s 10:56:54 user 0m0.000s 10:56:54 sys 0m0.000s 10:57:15 well, that's built-in command 10:57:24 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:57:24 is your /bin/sh bash? 10:57:28 ok so its a different time? 10:57:35 checking... 10:57:40 which time 10:57:57 it should be in /usr/bin/time 10:58:11 or /bin/time, YMMV 10:58:37 beware: do not run /bin/time --reverse as root: spontaneous minature black hole formation has been observed 11:00:14 unrecognized option '--reverse' :( 11:01:05 it is not in time is not in /usr/bin and I dont have a /bin/time directory 11:01:45 so, when you say "yes time is installed on my system" do you actually mean "no time is not installed on my system"? 11:02:00 again (this time in english)..... time is not in /usr/bin and I dont have a /bin/time directory 11:02:17 well I mean if I do $ time something happens 11:02:53 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16832F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:54 'which time' should tell you the path to the executable if you have it in PATH 11:03:01 if "which" is installed 11:03:06 and in the path 11:03:06 yes 11:03:06 esyiest solution is to eidt make.sh, or do "bash make.sh" 11:03:18 % which time => time: shell reserved word 11:03:21 oh well 11:03:39 here "whereis time" yields /usr/bin/time 11:04:43 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 11:04:57 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-143-130.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:05:00 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:05:21 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 11:05:38 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 11:07:08 well thanx for your "time"...apt-get install time seems to have solved the problem 11:08:09 funny. my "whereis time" says "You have no chance to survive make your time" 11:08:10 when they do a minimal install of ubuntu server they really mean minimal 11:08:32 -!- |Trickster| [i=Trickste@84.42.57.212] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:12:40 i'll never understand why it is good to cripple an operating system by not including essential utilities in the base system. 11:13:43 -!- knobo [n=user@148.122.202.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:14:58 elias` [n=me@resnet-nat-004.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:15:05 knobo [n=user@148.122.202.247] has joined #lisp 11:15:37 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.189.132] has quit ["..."] 11:17:04 -!- crod [n=cmell@x250023.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18:08 crod [n=cmell@x250017.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:18:50 yeah, a server tends to have enough disk space for "time", H4ns 11:20:20 lnostdal: not only that - especially with servers, it is often the case that the installer is not aware of what a maintainer may need. i have been trying to maintain linux installations with raid controllers, not regularily updated, missing the raid controller tools. not funny. 11:20:43 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:11 my pet peeve is any system where the documentation comes in separate optional packages 11:21:15 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:21:25 and you don't fid it's missing until you're away from the net 11:21:47 if the docs were important enough to be worth writing, they're important enough to be available for reading 11:21:57 "but you might want to install it on that 386 box with 20mb of rll disk!1!!" 11:22:09 hehe 11:22:54 last time I tried to install postgres on a naked debian box it managed to pull sqlite in as a dependency 11:23:05 *g* kinda ironic 11:23:17 anyone using a 20MB 386 has bigger problems already 11:23:46 personally I'd suggest nfs root 11:24:47 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:24:48 I have the slime disconnection problem again: during a data import which spits out some errors, the connection is closed and I have this in the inferior-lisp buffer: 11:24:54 kami- pasted "slime disconnect" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77523 11:25:44 I'm using sbcl and slime head from 2009-01-10 11:26:44 It doesn't happen every time I call the import function. 11:27:26 drewc: you suggested that it might have to do with the character encoding, yesterday. 11:28:00 swank is started with (swank:start-server "/tmp/slime.7651" :coding-system "utf-8-unix") 11:28:04 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:28:11 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:28:14 I don't think that's an encoding error 11:28:29 Could you also paste the content of the *slime-events* buffer? 11:28:58 ls 11:29:13 the output of the function is exactly the same, each time I run it. So, it would probably break every time, if it was related to encoding. 11:30:02 there's "B\x00FCrstadt-Bobstadt", so perhaps there is some encoding related error 11:30:33 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:30:39 tcr: I have to remove the people's names. one second 11:30:45 <_3b> minimal installs are nice for VM installs, a few GB per image adds up :p 11:30:59 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:06 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:52 _3b: i'm not talking about kde and stuff, i am talking about the few hundred unix commands and the system utilities that every system needs to be useful on the command line. 11:31:59 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:32:05 kami- annotated #77523 "slime-events" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77523#1 11:32:46 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BC09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:54 tcr: \x00FC appears each time I run it. Why does it break only once in a while? 11:32:56 well a lot of the Virtual Hosting out there is not far from the "386 box with 20mb of rll disk" specs... 11:34:27 kami-: The backtrace contains a password. Better change it right away 11:35:47 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:48 Harag: hmm. my basic level bytemark package is 256MB RAM, 11G disk 11:36:21 admittedly I've had it since it was 64MB ram, but that was a few years ago 11:36:48 tcr: thanks. will do (although the box is not accessible on the net). 11:37:19 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:24 kami-: Post the problem to the slime-devel list; I have no idea right now, and got no time. 11:39:33 tcr: will do. anything else which might be of importance (and I should keep)? 11:39:59 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:40:17 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 11:42:04 tcr: how do I find out, which port the disconnected swank is running at? 11:43:04 kami-: do you start the swank-server with :dont-close being t? 11:43:16 otherwise the swank-server shutdowns on disconnect 11:43:39 tcr: ps shows it running 11:44:07 look at the beginning of *inferior-lisp* 11:44:42 Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has joined #lisp 11:44:52 tcr: thank you. 11:45:48 mmh. connection refused. 11:47:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 11:47:28 kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.59] has joined #lisp 11:49:32 ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has joined #lisp 11:50:47 chris2_ [n=chris@p5B16B12B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:51:04 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:52:45 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.165.2.126] has quit [] 11:52:48 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:02 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:56:37 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:45 bbe [n=bbe@221.226.139.2] has joined #lisp 12:05:09 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:05:59 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16832F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:07:35 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-13-156.twcny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 12:12:25 it's remarkable how many parallels are there between PLOT and a certain proprietory language I happen to be familiar with 12:13:15 I guess once you start with "infix, with powerful macros and extensible object system", well. 12:15:50 that proprietary language has a powerful macro system? 12:16:12 what might this proprietary language be? 12:16:37 "e" (small-letter "e", not "E") 12:16:55 used in one of Cadenc Design's products 12:17:13 positioned as a HW verification language 12:17:41 how does it relate to skill? 12:17:58 and yes, it has a powerful OO-based macro system, albeit much messier than PLOT's 12:18:03 tcr: no relation 12:18:04 this one?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_(verification_language) 12:18:27 frank_s: yup 12:19:05 chris2__ [n=chris@p5B16AF5F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:20:49 wchogg [n=wchogg@216.165.145.79] has joined #lisp 12:20:54 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:21:21 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:27:44 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca98.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:21 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087FA43.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:31 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087FA43.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:30:44 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 12:30:45 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087FA43.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:16 Have there been any benchmarks of the proprietary compilers against the FOSS ones? 12:33:51 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@p5B16B12B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Network is unreachable] 12:33:57 -!- knobo [n=user@148.122.202.247] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:34:07 knobo [n=user@148.122.202.247] has joined #lisp 12:36:22 chris2 [n=chris@91.22.176.138] has joined #lisp 12:36:34 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 12:36:45 Quadrescence: for lisp or other langs? 12:37:11 good morning #lisp 12:37:38 p_l: Common lisp, though I'd be interested in hearing about others if there are any relevant benchmarks for other lisps. 12:38:56 hmm... I do recall certain libraries etc. having comparisons of speed between different implementations, but I don't think there is a one place that gathers benchmarking data 12:39:34 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:41:48 *wingo-tp* does not like the picture of the fighter jet with the words "population administration" underneath it 12:41:59 cool pic :D 12:42:00 or the pistol at the top. 12:42:09 Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has joined #lisp 12:43:47 good day Xach 12:43:54 morning, Xach 12:43:59 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:44:05 Hello, ilc friends 12:45:49 mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca98.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:46:02 so which session was it you walked out from is disgust? the future of lisp or the macro debate? 12:46:03 unohu [n=unohu@unaffiliated/unohu] has joined #lisp 12:46:40 future of lisp, I think 12:47:14 didn't even give the macro debate a chance, so don't know how awful it was 12:47:59 There was a discussion on the future of Lisp in here? 12:48:04 imho it was a bit better than the future of lisp one; nonetheless, I still left a bit early to talk with a couple people who were discussing numeric stuff in lisp 12:48:10 -!- chris2__ [n=chris@p5B16AF5F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 12:48:11 Quadrescence: no, at International Lisp Conference 12:48:19 jsnell: that makes it sound more dramatic than it was...there was a break in the action, and i didn't return 12:48:38 jsnell: many people also left for whatever other reasons...the panel ran long 12:48:54 ianmcorvidae: How many people are/did attend? 12:49:00 200+ 12:49:54 fair enough, the "cll quality" made it sound dramatic to me :-) 12:50:03 yep; it goes through Wednesday, so we'll probably be quoting people out of context and referencing things non-ILC folk can't see for another couple days :P 12:50:13 dramatically awful at the time i left 12:50:42 the last question was: "would the panel please answer with only yes or no: is open source critical to the future of lisp" or something like that 12:50:54 i mean, wtf 12:50:55 the "Plan 9 From Outer Space" of lisp future discussions 12:51:07 lol 12:51:12 omg, wasn't this questions proposed here? 12:51:18 in 2002 I believe open source wa destroying the future of lisp 12:51:27 but obviously, 7 years later we're already in the future 12:51:42 in what way 12:52:12 the the way that people came out and said that, verbatim 12:52:35 i mean how was "open source destroying the future of lisp" 12:52:58 removing incentive to give wads of money to commercial vendors 12:53:05 hence, destroying lisp jobs or something 12:53:16 oh no 12:53:30 I /think/ that was the reasoning. I didn't quite follow the discussion 12:53:38 presumably allegro and lispworks were trying to cling onto the borland business model 12:54:05 Are you guys trying to drive Xach away again? :-) 12:54:09 (the old one; borland's current business model seems to consist of changing its name once every few months) 12:54:10 <_3b> nah, they never had the 'sell cheap to lots of people' model (or did borland have a super high price line too?) 12:54:14 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.110.234] has joined #lisp 12:54:18 jsnell: good point (: 12:54:37 _3b: back in the day, borland had really IMPRESSIVELY high prices :) 12:54:46 modulo the chameleon-like rapidity of their name-changing, borland (or inprise, or, er, i think they're called CodeGear now?) is still around & kicking 12:54:58 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/f916f6d527a7aa96 12:54:59 they're called embarcado or something now 12:55:05 frank_s: they got bought by another company 12:55:08 <_3b> rsynnott: ok, i only used the turbo whatever line from them, when they were cheap :) 12:55:22 they were also borland.com for a while, ludicrously 12:55:23 the Delphi line was quite expensive 12:55:47 there was a basic version, but I don't think the license allowed the creation of commercial apps 12:56:55 rsynnott: AFAIK it allowed, but some libs weren't available (i.e. CLX required you to use GPL compatible license unless you bought commercial) 12:57:19 anyway, I don't think there's any particular evidence that open-source is destroying software jobs 12:57:23 quite the opposite 12:57:24 oh crap, I didn't see the parenting post 12:57:25 p_l: yeah, the corporate history's a bowl of spaghetti to try follow. at any rate, Delphi 2009 was just released (now with closures!), and it's still for-money 12:57:40 frank_s: what about personal edition? 12:57:51 hmm, interesting post 12:57:58 -!- nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 12:58:01 Delphi's always been expensive in _my_ book, but i never have to pay for it (because my employer does, of course) 12:58:06 it strikes me that college must seem very different if you have to pay for it 12:58:12 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 12:58:16 p_l: d2009 personal edition? you mean, does it have closures? or is it expensive? 12:58:21 (it's free here, the question never really arises) 12:58:37 d2009 has closures, apparently 12:58:52 yes, it does 12:58:55 frank_s: Personal editions contained the same compiler (back in x86-only times) as all other, they differed in libs and IDE functionality 12:59:36 p_l: yes (although i've always only used the enterprise editions, which have nicer shinier tools and a big price tag) 12:59:46 yeah, I used them too ;-) 13:00:47 the only commercial compiler I ever used much was VS2003/2005 13:00:57 (super-expensive-enterprise-version) 13:01:09 I was, well, not overly impressed 13:01:29 françois starting to talk about xvcb 13:01:54 on sunday, richard gabriel wandered into pascal costanza's talk when pcos was talking about how syntax isn't important. he rumbled "syntax is capitalism". at this moment fare is presenting his xcvb talk wearing a "Capitalism" (in coca-cola style) t-shirt. "I am Fare and I love syntax AND capitalism" 13:01:56 well, d2009 enterprise goes for GBP1399, architect edition for GBP2184 - as commercial versions of things go, is that expensive? 13:02:11 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:02:36 haha 13:02:48 that was too obvious a joke not to make for him (: 13:03:05 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:03:24 -!- Harag [n=phil@196.2.98.168] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:04:10 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-10.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:05:32 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:46 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:05:48 frank_s: AFAIK VS2008 Team Something goes for around ~5k USD or more per license 13:05:51 LostMonarch [n=roby@87.3.131.179] has joined #lisp 13:06:09 -!- g000001 [n=g000001@lq38.opt2.point.ne.jp] has left #lisp 13:06:22 same league as allegro, then 13:06:23 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:06:32 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 13:06:51 however, full professional packages of VS are usually available in bundles with Windows Server Standard 13:07:27 MSDN access is also very expensive (but full access is a lot of goodies) 13:08:21 I think we got VS free, due to having XBox360 development licenses 13:08:36 rsynnott: MSDN-style license, I gues 13:08:43 yep, probably 13:08:55 full MSDN subscription includes licenses for various stuff like that :) 13:09:03 most individual programmers can probably be satisfied with teh express editions :P 13:09:16 I was mostly server-side, so generally spared the horrible console devkits 13:09:21 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [] 13:09:37 ace4016: 2k5 wasn't that good, though. 2k8 with VS Shell is much better 13:09:38 *_3b* just uses the compiler in the SDK to compile with MS tools 13:09:51 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.110.234] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:09:59 -!- unohu [n=unohu@unaffiliated/unohu] has left #lisp 13:10:34 ooh, building qt smoke for windows seems rather daunting :( 13:12:27 rsynnott: wouldn't be that bad if only someone decided to take smoke out of kdebindings... 13:12:43 Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has joined #lisp 13:12:43 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:12:53 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:12:54 ace4016: soem of the express stuff times out. i still don't have a free and legal ie7 debugging tool, which is ridiculous... 13:13:19 ok, so in today's world Delphi's prices aren't exceedingly expensive, compared to other commercial IDEs (LW's enterprise edition's EUR3600) - in fact they're a bit cheap 13:13:45 attila_lendvai, i didn't say all :P 13:13:57 in today's world people should finally realize the power of opensource... 13:13:59 attila_lendvai: most of the bugs visible in ie7 can be reproduced in ie8, and that comes with a good debugger. (-: 13:14:01 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:14:24 antifuchs: oh, thanks for the hint! i'll check it out... 13:14:37 attila_lendvai: the power of open source, like in "linux killed the embedded os market"? 13:14:40 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:15:39 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:16:05 kreuter [i=kreuter@dhcp-18-111-8-130.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:16:07 did it? Win2k embedded is still popular, as are peculiar things like vxworks 13:17:38 rsynnott: not really killed, but the growth of embedded operating system vendors certainly does not reflect the large number of embedded devices that exist today. 13:18:12 NT embedded is a rather peculiar embedded market :-) 13:18:15 rsynnott: i'm not saying that that is just good or bad. i just mean that there is nothing to "realize" here. 13:18:24 And tons use WinCE 13:18:41 p_l: there also is qnx, which does good in some areas. 13:18:55 H4ns: QNX is more into RTOS range :) 13:19:14 but sure, it's a nice OS and a good example of a real micro/nanokernel 13:20:04 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:08 unlike certain Mach-based ones :> 13:20:23 p_l: "Middleware, development tools, realtime operating system software and services for superior embedded design" that is how qnx positions itself 13:20:41 H4ns: i don't care who kills who, as long as i'm not constrained in what i install and use on my cell phone. i still use a 10 year old ericsson t39m because i don't see the point in buying a newer, more colorful brick over which i have no control at all... 13:21:15 H4ns: same goes for VxWorks 13:21:25 do you have much control over the t39m? 13:21:42 rsynnott: no, but i do need a cellphone 13:21:46 attila_lendvai: i don't feel the need to control my phone other than have it call when i enter a number and accept incoming calls when i press the button that is supposed to do that. 13:21:51 H4ns: Yes, and apparently it's good enough to control aircrafts (and is trusted for such by real pros), so I'd rather go with QNX than VxWorks :D 13:22:10 p_l: you need to realize the power of open source and switch to linux. 13:22:31 p_l: if you're a pilot, that is the point when you can _really_ control the plane that you fly! 13:22:35 H4ns: I wouldn't let Linux anywhere near aircraft control. Sorry, but realtime OS it isn't :) 13:22:54 p_l: really? 13:23:06 p_l: but it has posix realtime extensions. 13:23:09 attila_lendvai: when I try to output a slot of a persistent instance, I get +not-cached-slot-marker+. How can I load the real value? 13:23:14 anyway. this is getting increasingly silly :) 13:23:17 p_l: in most embedded applications, you don't actually care about "real-time". you really only care about having a deterministic scheduler 13:23:39 aggieben: what is "real time", by that definition? 13:23:49 aggieben: We were talking about aircraft firmware. I do care about realtime constraints in that case :) 13:24:12 L4Linux is good enough for communication systems, though 13:24:46 p_l: hell...any OS is good enough for comms 13:25:04 p_l: vxworks is used to control spacecraft, though 13:25:05 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Success] 13:25:15 deat [n=deat@88.172.174.215] has joined #lisp 13:25:39 and smart bombs, too! 13:25:42 (the Iridium sat thing runs its distributed backbone with vmworks, plus _7_ PPCs) 13:25:43 rsynnott: Well, I haven't really looked into it. VxWorks seems less approachable than QNX, though I might get some access 13:25:47 (per sat) 13:25:54 *vxworks 13:26:03 rsynnott: those ppcs are routers 13:26:25 H4ns: operational deadlines. 13:26:29 also, please remember that Java may not be used in nuclear power plants 13:26:38 lol 13:26:42 only lisp? 13:27:06 stassats`: CDC Fortran? :P 13:27:16 (it's in the license agreement!) 13:28:05 rsynnott: like every other software I had ever seen :) 13:28:06 lisp doesn't have such constraints, so we are safe 13:28:51 kami-: revive-instance, load-instance, with-..., etc 13:28:57 kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 13:29:47 attila_lendvai: even if it is the result of a (select- ) was issued in the same with-transaction form? 13:29:55 s/was/which was/ 13:30:45 dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:31:21 kami-: you should not get +not-cached-slot-marker+ from a live instance. if you do, then that's a bug. please send example and/or repl output to the list 13:31:27 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:09 jfm3 [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:32:38 kami-: unless you use best-effort-slot-value, which is made for this very reason: try to get the slot value, but leave alone the db 13:34:46 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 13:34:47 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:38:59 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 13:40:43 -!- drforr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:41:15 drforr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:33 tabb0t [n=tabb0t@122.172.115.217] has joined #lisp 13:44:57 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:45:37 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:02 attila_lendvai: thank you. I try to find out whether I am doing sth wrong and will otherwise post to the list 13:47:50 I know this is not the way to optimize, but I was wondering if (expt x 2) was faster than (* x x) :D 13:49:04 yvdriess: disassemble and check 13:49:10 yvdriess: you'll probably have to benchmark or disassemble 13:49:35 *rsynnott* suspects it'll just be the same thing 13:50:00 does any modern processor have expt operator? 13:50:17 stassats`: as in exponential? 13:50:33 gary kind -- "Lisp is good for: I/O, parsing, memory management, inference, query 13:50:33 optimization, resource utilization (CPUs, disks)" 13:50:55 p_l: no, as expt on integers 13:50:59 *king 13:51:01 fradiavalo [n=fradiava@outside30.mlp.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:31 stassats`: one or two probably do 13:51:46 POWER had a lot of random maths ops 13:52:07 (though a lot of them are now microcoded, after the PPC970,POWER6 transition 13:52:11 I guess POWER6 might have it :) 13:52:19 afk 13:52:44 power of two is what, shift left as much as the number and add to the original number 13:54:07 the expt disassemble is shorter :P 13:54:12 the Cray 3 had a cube root exp :) 13:54:19 *op 13:54:45 did it have bignums? 13:55:30 possibly 13:55:49 I don't think it's a well-known arch; there was only actually one ever made 13:55:52 -!- kreuter [i=kreuter@dhcp-18-111-8-130.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:56:04 or, is there any hardware bignums at all? 13:56:16 that incarnation of cray died in the withdrawal of funds at the end of the cold war 13:56:39 what would hardware bignums be like? 13:57:21 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1E5F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:34 jfm3: a huge mess of logic, complete with it's own memory controller :-) 13:57:51 aggieben: that sounds like software to me 13:57:52 segv [n=mb@p4FC1F56A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:56 yep 13:57:59 there's a fun project for someone doing computer architecture 13:58:32 rsynnott: more like a cynical way to get arch students to realize that software is better than hardware at some things 13:58:53 it's all fun until they realize the utter futility of it :-) 13:59:11 (in practice you'd probably be limited to a processing unit x bits wide with special provision for stitching things back together) 13:59:12 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:59:14 aggieben: could be both 13:59:30 yep. I should have thought of that project last year when I was teachign 14:00:53 In a scholarship exam I had while in uni, I had to make a simple game out of a collection of mostly nand gates 14:01:00 that would, clearly, be easier in software 14:01:22 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:45 i recently wrote a midi drum machine in vhdl, and that was not terribly much harder than writing it in software :) 14:01:46 foom [n=user@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:55 (synthesizable vhdl) 14:04:27 did you implement it on a chip? 14:04:40 rsynnott: on an fpga, yes. 14:05:28 rsynnott: it certainly does not have that much of practical value, but i wanted to try out how the ratio between software and hardware development times really is, nowadays 14:05:51 rsynnott: given the realtime nature of the problem, i'm not totally convinced that a software solution would be much faster to develop. 14:06:16 the two are definitely merging somewhat: there are some tools which can synthesize SystemC code into an FPGA image 14:06:56 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 14:08:15 CallToPower [n=CallToPo@xdslen029.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:08:56 -!- kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:47 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host111.190-138-156.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 14:13:43 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:14:14 higher-level languages, too, at least in principle 14:14:36 -!- CallToPower [n=CallToPo@xdslen029.osnanet.de] has left #lisp 14:15:09 there's a hardware-synthesizable language implemented in Haskell (in similar way to implementing something with macros in CL) 14:15:24 or DSLs in HLL, like Lava in Haskell 14:15:27 http://wingolog.org/archives/2009/03/24/international-lisp-conference-day-two 14:15:31 frank_s_ [n=frank@41.145.42.12] has joined #lisp 14:15:47 there also is liquid metal, myhdl, but all these hdl's suffer from the lack of tool support 14:16:01 -!- frank_s [n=frank@41.145.42.12] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:16:05 likely to become more common in future, what with the current cheapness of simple VHDLs 14:16:18 some companies actually use them for short-production-run consumer hardware now 14:16:37 (usually Xilinx spartan) 14:17:20 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:17:55 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:18:20 I wonder how expensive a set of few fpgas will be in few years... 14:18:24 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:18:38 p_l: less expensive than today, and they are not expensive today. 14:18:55 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:19:13 p_l: 1 mio gate equiv in single quantities ~$20 14:19:16 you can get a mid range fpga for about 10-15$, small ones for a few bucks 14:19:17 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:19:31 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:39 the "big" ones being mostly academia toys 14:19:47 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BC09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:20:17 manuel_: modern supercomputers often come with reconfigurable blocks, too, and there they use high density devices as all 14:20:21 well, I'm looking for something to implement a complete computer (not an embedded system, a desktop machine) :) 14:20:29 H4ns: ah yes 14:20:31 "If you're in Wyoming with a dialup modem, every little bit counts." 14:20:37 H4ns: you mean Cray XT3? 14:20:58 p_l: i've not seen models, just read some papers in some acm journal recently. 14:21:22 p_l: lisp machine? 14:21:26 p_l: building a complete fpga based system is totally feasible today, if you manage to get the pcb layout done. 14:21:27 -!- frank_s_ is now known as frank_s 14:21:45 I'm still puzzled as to who exactly would want, say, the version of the Virtex 6 that comes with a few PPC cores 14:21:46 or use a "devboard" 14:22:16 stassats`: nope, but the cpu might be reconfigurable into that. If my pet project of designing a MMIX-based NUMA system works, I might invest in getting the fpgas 14:22:21 rsynnott: they're used to implement routers, for example. 14:22:21 p_l: lots of supercomputers have VHDL now 14:22:41 (I think you can get Xilinx chips which plug into opteron ports) 14:22:54 or at least into an opteron bus 14:23:04 rsynnott: do normal software control etc. on PPC, do special purpose I/O or special algorithms on FPGA parts 14:23:06 p_l: i'd invest in tools, the fpgas are cheap anyway 14:23:19 p_l: and for anything non-trivial, you need a capable simulation environment. 14:23:39 virtex 6 is very big and expensive, though 14:23:40 H4ns: that's what the project is about - building a simulator for a complete computer architecture :) 14:24:24 If I don't drop out or decide it's infeasible, I'll go with hardware implementation 14:24:39 I seem to remember a mention on the xilinx site that complete simulation of, I think, a design fully utilising Virtex 5 would require _25GB_ RAM 14:26:01 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host180.190-227-33.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:08 so at least someone is using 64bit windows apps, then :) 14:27:01 rsynnott: not only them are using 64bit windows :D 14:27:22 very few people are using 64bit windows apps on 64bit windows, though 14:27:53 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:07 -!- tabb0t [n=tabb0t@122.172.115.217] has quit ["leaving...."] 14:28:30 (though I always found the windows ISE horribly crash-y compared to the linux one; not sure has this changed) 14:28:37 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 14:28:59 rsynnott: it crashes sometimes now, but it improved. 14:29:10 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:25 rsynnott: all in all, it is better avoided :) i am told that quartus is much better. 14:29:49 i had more problems with the linux ISE than with the windows ISE 14:30:59 another good example is a lot of scientific and engineering stuff that already had problems with 32bit limitations before 14:31:17 the linux one is terribly painful to install, but didn't crash so much once I had it installed 14:31:24 p_l: also ccl :) 14:31:38 Xach: you doing a lightning talk? 14:31:44 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 14:31:47 (clozure claims that the 64bit windows ccl is more reliable than the win32 one) 14:32:17 rsynnott: it certainly is more reliable. 14:32:29 rsynnott: ANSYS simply exceeded the amount of memory available in 32bit addressing space 14:32:38 it's uglier, though, as is traditional for commercial linux software 14:32:57 Motif or variants being considered Good Enough 14:33:55 I don't have problems with Motif 14:34:43 many of the newer commercial software uses Java though (which means I would have to resolve to *ugly* tricks to run it) 14:37:09 deliana [n=deliana@ABordeaux-158-1-83-69.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:39:08 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:41:55 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-67-125-22-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:17 yoshinori [n=read_eva@210.253.202.182] has joined #lisp 14:45:09 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-231-73.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:48:16 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:48:43 -!- deliana [n=deliana@ABordeaux-158-1-83-69.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:44 bsummersett [n=bsummers@udhcp-macvpn-448.public.engin.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 14:49:37 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-79-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:50:05 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:50:25 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 14:50:58 simard [n=simard@modemcable234.226-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:51:38 ianmcorvidae: (when you wake up) yes, tomorrow. 14:51:51 http://www.flickr.com/photos/xach/3381571005/ 14:52:05 (that's rich "clojure" hickey over my shoulder...) 14:52:07 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcr107.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:52:34 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-206.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:53:34 wingo-tp [n=wingo@18.190.26.53] has joined #lisp 14:53:44 CallToPower [n=CallToPo@xdslen029.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:55:10 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195.50.200.199] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:55:44 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 14:56:27 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-169-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:59:00 -!- p_l [i=plasek@korn.rootnode.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:59:50 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:00:49 sellout- [n=greg@dhcp-18-111-9-32.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:01:47 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:53 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:02:21 KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:03:48 Xach: that's pretty funny 15:07:20 Xach: are you giving a talk on wigflip? 15:07:23 rather recursive if so 15:07:41 i just wish ccl didn't crash for me 15:07:43 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcr107.osnanet.de] has quit [] 15:07:51 it seems to allocate as much memory there is available 15:07:59 deliana [n=deliana@ABordeaux-158-1-83-69.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:08:03 has anyone tried use this programs: http://norvig.com/paip/ ? 15:08:22 guaqua: which OS? 15:08:23 Mrspec pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77531 15:08:28 while reading paip, yes 15:08:30 rsynnott: linux 15:08:31 When I'm trying I get this msg 15:08:36 64 bit 15:08:48 can't even get swank running 15:08:51 stassats`, could You take a look ? and say whats wrong ? 15:08:55 it allocates only 512g 15:09:00 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:02 elias` [n=me@resnet-nat-004.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:09:05 yeah, a mere 512g 15:09:19 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:09:26 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 15:09:31 I need simplifier and can't make it working :\ 15:09:37 MrSpec: well, i've loaded them manually 15:09:45 -!- _Trickster_ [i=Trickste@84.42.57.212] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:09:59 _Trickster_ [i=Trickste@84.42.57.212] has joined #lisp 15:10:08 ah 15:10:15 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:31 ok, I'll try 15:10:40 guaqua: well, why are you having troubles? some non-standard settings? like overcommit 15:11:06 willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:11:32 anyway, you can do ccl -R 50000 15:11:51 stassats`: there's ulimit set 15:11:54 i'll try that 15:12:52 -!- _Trickster_ [i=Trickste@84.42.57.212] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:13:03 "The function REQUIRES is undefined." Whats wrong O_o 15:13:50 heh "clos allows more of my code to be proprietary" -- cadence guy 15:13:57 it uses some custom system for loading files 15:14:33 probably, loading them manually isn't a good idea 15:15:17 so, you first need to load auxfuns.lisp 15:15:53 flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has joined #lisp 15:16:20 stassats`: is there an easy way to set it in clbuild? 15:16:22 what was the command to ask the bot ? 15:16:34 ,rec 15:16:49 to ask what? 15:16:54 what rec is 15:17:02 nothing 15:17:08 makes sense 15:17:09 thank you 15:17:10 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151257.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:17:14 simard: wrong channel. 15:17:17 stassats`, so when I load auxfns I got that error 15:17:25 H4ns, I don't think so 15:17:41 from Readme.html: (load "auxfns.lisp")(requires "examples")(do-examples :all) 15:18:00 <_3b> r5rs rec 15:18:01 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for rec. 15:18:11 <_3b> guess not :( what language is it? 15:18:30 clojure 15:18:32 whatever language it is, it is not common lisp. wrong channel. 15:18:34 maybe it's just user defined function? 15:18:45 my mistake, yes its a labels defined function 15:18:49 it 15:18:54 in scheme, you can use a special extension of LET (so called named let) 15:19:00 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:19:02 <_3b> ah, guess specbot doesn't know about clojure yet :) 15:19:08 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:31 MrSpec: well, that does work for me 15:20:27 unfortunately I am not so lucky, I'm using SKILL as a language, which is quite a bit different from common lisp, but has some things in common nonetheless 15:20:29 oh well, it works in CCL, but not in SBCL 15:20:57 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B09D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:20:59 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B09D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:21:00 stassats`, You downloaded and use this 3 commands ? 15:21:04 thats all ? 15:21:44 it has some implementation dependant parts, and sbcl wasn't around at that time 15:21:58 maybe that's because 15:22:06 ah 15:22:09 I use SBCL 15:22:23 hmm so it wo't work with sbcl ? :S 15:22:46 it will, with some modifications 15:23:06 stassats`: thanks a bunch 15:23:13 could you help me ? 15:23:26 stassats`: -R seems to work. if i only knew this before doing one project in python :( 15:23:32 MrSpec: see #clojure 15:23:50 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:50 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:50 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:24:00 MrSpec: yes, i'll try, it shouldn't be hard 15:24:02 guaqua: i doubt that the paip examples work in clojure. 15:24:02 err, did i mix up 15:24:11 guaqua, ?yes ;] 15:24:14 the clojure bit was too much for poor little specbot 15:24:24 H4ns: sorry, got 2 conversations mixed up :) 15:24:54 stassats`, ok, how should I start ? ;D 15:27:39 MrSpec: wait a little bit 15:27:44 oki 15:27:51 newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has joined #lisp 15:28:56 anyone know if there is some existing library that parses rss 15:29:00 ? 15:29:13 <_death> feedparser.py 15:29:21 \o/ 15:29:27 dlowe [n=dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has joined #lisp 15:30:11 sorry, for common lisp :-) 15:30:32 I'm looking through cliki.net for ya. 15:30:36 python has a standard module for parsing rss feeds? 15:30:50 sohail: i have used cxml in the past, but i am not aware of a library that parses into a common object representation. 15:31:08 sohail: for most practical purposes, just using cxml works fine for me. 15:31:44 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:31:56 H4ns, yeah that's what I thought I would do if there was nothing already 15:31:57 <_death> rss stuff has a shitload of special cases 15:32:13 well I only have to parse rss from one particular generator which is better 15:32:17 cxml is kind of kludgy for most purposes. something like beautifulsoup would be really nice to have in common lisp too 15:32:40 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:32:48 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:56 guaqua: if that's your itch, scratch it! 15:32:56 <_death> it's easy to naively parse one, but maddening to get "everything" that gets thrown at you parsed 15:33:06 clim-alerts has sufficient rss support to understand planet lisp most of the time, but RSS is terrible 15:33:07 H4ns: already doing it ;) 15:33:18 <_death> sohail: I can nopaste some 60 lines to parse it 15:33:20 Is it a known bug/issue that sxhash in the latest sbcl on 64-bit Debian does not necessarily give unique hashes? (equal (sxhash (make-array 3 :initial-element 3)) (sxhash (make-array 4 :initial-element 4))) => T for that platform and NIL for a 32-bit platform I use. 15:33:22 since rss has html in it, it doesn't use cxml for that part, but rather chtml 15:33:35 oh, lisppaste is down 15:33:38 Perhaps you can use feedparser.py to parse it and rewrite it in a consistent format. 15:33:39 newlisper: unique hashes? Interesting concept. 15:33:45 and then parse with cxml or something. :) 15:33:58 newlisper: that's not a necessary property of hashes 15:33:59 foom: that's what i do. i rewrite to sexps for planet lisp. 15:34:15 newlisper: you typically just want them as unique as possible 15:34:31 _death, if you could that would be great 15:34:56 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:02 dlowe: That is fine... they should certainly be more unique than exactly equal values on different-sized arrays with different elements. 15:35:13 sxhash in cmucl used to return 42 for any standard-object, iirc 15:35:15 minion: tell guaqua about chtml 15:35:18 dlowe: I get that behavior on a 32-bit platform I am using but not on my 64-bit platform. 15:35:21 foom, I'd rather not 15:35:31 H4ns, will cxml handle the different encodings? 15:35:39 minion: tell guaqua about closure-html 15:35:43 newlisper: that is not a requirement of sxhash. 15:35:48 oh, no minion 15:35:51 MrSpec: this http://stassats.dyndns.org/paip-sbcl.patch should do it 15:35:58 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:36:02 anyway. see http://www.cliki.net/closure-html and http://www.lichteblau.com/git/?p=clim-alerts.git;a=blob;f=rss.lisp 15:36:06 milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.176] has joined #lisp 15:36:11 sohail: yes, as long as they are correctly specified. 15:36:12 Greetings! 15:36:17 sohail: it does not guess. 15:36:22 lichtblau: already using it 15:36:30 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:32 stassats`, thanks, I'll try 15:36:36 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:59 seems that lisppaste does not come up again, loops and crashes. 15:37:05 There are certain requirements on sxhash that make it weaker than it could be. The behaviour of sxhash is also not necessarily indicative of how an implementation's hash tables will perform, since the typical equality tests for hash tables aren't as lenient. 15:37:15 lichtblau, I get 403 on that page 15:37:24 also, good job with CommonQt :-) 15:37:37 <_death> sohail: http://pastebin.com/m50cc4460 15:38:17 stassats`, I should run this file in the PAIP directory ? 15:39:19 cd paip-directory; patch < ~/paip-sbcl.patch 15:40:00 ahh 15:40:14 pkhuong: Is there a place I can read a bit more of those details about sxhash? The Hyperspec (as presented by lispworks) does not really discuss how powerful sxhash will be other than to suggest that implementations must make a good-faith effort. I was concerned that there might be an accidental difference in sbcl's handling of structures in 64-bit that might be behind other potential problems. 15:40:55 <_death> sohail: mostly it was just to check out flexml 15:41:07 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:11 _death, I see it, cool :-) 15:41:30 Look at requirement #2 in the spec. 15:41:35 ;clhs on file-write-date says "returns nil if such a time cannot be determined." and then "An error of type file-error is signaled if the file system cannot perform the requested operation." 15:41:55 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1F56A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:42:04 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:13 Similarly, for #3. 15:42:51 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:09 minion: tell simard about subseq 15:43:20 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:45 i think, it's not here right now 15:44:01 pkhuong: Unless I am not comprehending, those requirements do not appear to apply. #2 regards consistency of the hash across images (not across implementations). #3 refers to comparing the object's hash against itself later. 15:44:18 and minion doesn't know about subseq, that's what specbot will answer on "clhs subseq" 15:44:21 stassats`, thanks :] Chapter 8. Symbolic Mathematics: A Simplification Program done. 15:45:08 SXHASH of arrays that aren't bitvectors or strings must be a value that's constant even if the object is modified. 15:46:02 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 15:46:54 2. explains some weaknesses of SXHASH on these built-in objects, and 3. is what really matters; keep in mind that EQUAL compares arrays (except for bitvectors and strings) with EQ, object identity. 15:47:01 ah, I just privmsg'd xof 15:47:42 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:47:43 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BC09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:18 The important thing is that most the weaknesses the requirement introduce in SXHASH probably won't affect the performance of hash tables, since they don't use SXHASH directly. 15:48:28 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:48:29 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:48:29 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:49:31 ok, so know all programs are working, but when I'd like to use them in my project should I change something in this functions from macsyma.lisp file ? becouse copy/paste didnt work :\ 15:50:22 -!- kuhzoo2 is now known as kuhzoo 15:50:46 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-12-196.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:23 and all functions on which your functions depend 15:52:07 yes, I did it 15:52:08 :] 15:52:20 ahh sorry 15:52:22 -!- aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [] 15:52:38 I kinda feel bad grabbing the catered lunch before anyone else. Heh. 15:52:46 I include all functions.. but what changes ? this patch did everything ? 15:52:58 diog3n3s [n=diog3n3s@97-118-156-192.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:38 MrSpec: patch was just for loading examples 15:53:44 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@18.190.26.53] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:53:49 rich_holygoat: leave some for me. 15:54:07 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:54:18 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:54:46 and removing package lock from :cl, but you don't really want to redefine CL in your program 15:55:06 hmm 15:55:07 so, if it uses modified versions, you'll need to rename them 15:55:24 I rename names of functions ? 15:56:20 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 15:56:29 when I was compiled this program yesterday there was a lot of "removing lock" informations 15:56:43 auxfuns redefines only SYMBOL and DEBUG symbols 15:57:27 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [Client Quit] 15:57:44 so, you'll need to rename these functions if you intend to copy them 15:57:49 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 15:58:48 symbolp function ? 15:59:08 ah symbols, ok nvm 15:59:10 no, symbol function 15:59:12 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:24 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:00:59 ok, this program doesnt use SYMBOL or DEBUG, so I dont have to rename it ? 16:01:18 -!- bsummersett [n=bsummers@udhcp-macvpn-448.public.engin.umich.edu] has quit [] 16:01:34 -!- CallToPower [n=CallToPo@xdslen029.osnanet.de] has left #lisp 16:01:44 yes, you don't have to 16:03:32 ok, I'll try one more time do copy/paste. Maybe I did something wrong. 16:04:11 Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 16:04:14 -!- ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.133] has quit ["Off!"] 16:04:33 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:23 -!- bbe [n=bbe@221.226.139.2] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:07:49 antgreen [n=green@12.50.146.130] has joined #lisp 16:08:29 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@210.253.202.182] has left #lisp 16:09:22 -!- deliana [n=deliana@ABordeaux-158-1-83-69.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 16:10:18 deliana [n=deliana@ABordeaux-158-1-83-69.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:12:38 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 16:13:49 bsummersett [n=bsummers@udhcp-macvpn-504.public.engin.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 16:16:11 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:16:31 aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:49 ejs [n=eugen@137-80-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:09 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-231-73.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 16:18:33 what's up with common-lisp.net? 16:18:43 it's resting 16:19:29 ;;; 2. Benchmark. The "load asdf.lisp" benchmark indicates a 30% 16:19:29 ;;; speedup, while the "load asdf.fasl" benchmark gives 80%. 16:19:37 hm, I wonder if the idea in this tree ever got merged 16:19:39 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:38 ok, file loaded&compiled, but know when I use simplifier : CL-USER> (simplifier) / SIMPLIFIER> (x + x) /(X + X) there is no change :S 16:23:15 does it want infix or prefix input? 16:23:26 infix 16:23:36 hmm lisp paste is not working ? 16:23:36 is the + you are entering the + it's looking for? 16:23:55 does it have a rule to combine like terms? 16:23:57 yes, I was working when I run examples few minues ago 16:24:05 but not after copy / paste 16:24:10 only simplifier :S 16:24:32 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-231-73.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:24:41 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-98-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:24:50 kpreid is wondering if + was one of the symbols that the example was trying to override. 16:25:31 hard question 16:25:53 Doesn't look like it is... *infix->prefix-rules* uses it as a symbol, presumably for use in parsing. 16:26:13 yes 16:26:58 so I should rename symbol ? 16:28:24 Try putting a space after your / 16:28:32 Just a random thought. :) 16:28:55 Where does CFFI search for external libraries? I want to use a different library than the system-wide installed in /usr/lib. 16:28:56 ah / is new line :P to make less spam here 16:29:21 Oh, sorry 16:29:22 http://paste.org/6104 here is the code, Could anyone test if simplifier is working for you ? 16:30:32 segv [n=mb@p4FC1F56A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:47 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:30:59 -!- jfm3 [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:31:33 -!- sellout- [n=greg@dhcp-18-111-9-32.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 16:35:29 tmh1 [n=thomas@s1-30-rt-bras.sm.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:57 Heh, lightning just knocked out my power for a few seconds. What'd I miss. :-P 16:36:05 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:36:48 tmh1: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/09.03.24 16:37:52 Oh, look, my previous self is still here. Hmm need to fix that. 16:37:55 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:38:34 hahaha what a stiupid mistake :\ 16:38:42 I've forgotten simplifaication-rules ;) 16:38:51 i just wanted to type that 16:39:08 copy paste is bad... 16:39:41 The-Kenny: see the docs for load-foreign-library 16:39:56 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:41:15 what is you preferred name for a macro like push, but at the end ? unshift, revpush, push-end, ... ? 16:41:16 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:27 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-19-190.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:33 luis: Found it. Just add the directory to *foreign-library-directories* 16:41:34 slow-push-to-end 16:41:47 just kidding. 16:41:49 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [No route to host] 16:41:53 H4ns: not that bad. 16:42:15 H4ns: do you have fast-push-to-end? 16:42:22 stassats`: not at all. 16:42:56 back-door 16:43:07 stassats`: i was just trying to point out that a "push to end" macro, if it is meant to work on lists, would be inefficient. 16:43:35 i understood 16:43:38 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:43:46 -!- tmh1 is now known as tmh 16:43:47 A COLLECT macro probably makes more sense. 16:44:40 pkhuong: can I collect two different things in a single loop ? 16:44:53 yes 16:45:26 stassats`: ok, then I'm going to try this way. 16:45:33 (loop for i to 10 for j to 10 collect i into i-list collect j into j-list finally (return (append i-list j-list))) 16:45:34 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-bcbb1dfbc6cbd432] has joined #lisp 16:45:45 stassats`: wonderful ! 16:46:35 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has quit [] 16:48:50 ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-98-194-108-33.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:33 lakedenma [n=irchon@32.162.72.60] has joined #lisp 16:50:08 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:50:25 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:50 Note to self: Master loop. 16:51:35 -!- bernd_ [n=berndj@dsl-245-184-113.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit ["night"] 16:52:01 -!- antgreen [n=green@12.50.146.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:45 any loose ETA on common-lisp.net? is it something serious? 16:53:44 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.165.2.126] has joined #lisp 16:55:21 -!- diog3n3s [n=diog3n3s@97-118-156-192.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:55:52 I heard it takes 10 years to become a lisp expert. 16:56:30 i doubt there are metrics for such things. 16:56:41 emma: it takes several years to become an expert in anything non-trivial 16:56:47 emma: It takes a life to learn how to do programming. :-) 16:56:52 Well of course theres variation but that's what I heard. 16:57:18 http://norvig.com/21-days.html "Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years" 16:57:40 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-bcbb1dfbc6cbd432] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:57 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-42cea63aa50c423b] has joined #lisp 16:58:25 stassats`, how long have you been coding lisp ? 16:58:33 H4ns: Yeah I agree, it takes 10 years to become an expert at anything complicated. I guess. 16:58:35 ehh it was question for everybody 16:58:42 and you could learn anything in the night before exams 16:58:43 I hope maybe there's some way i could speed that up. 16:59:01 work really hard 16:59:05 MrSpec: 2-3 years 16:59:05 emma: sure, chose an easier subject. 16:59:18 attila_lendvai: working on it. 16:59:19 H4ns: No I want to learn Lisp. 16:59:25 Or, spend less time in #lisp and more time in emacs. 16:59:26 emma: then learn. 16:59:36 +slime 16:59:53 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:54 -!- lakedenma [n=irchon@32.162.72.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:10 tmh: #lisp is very helpful 17:00:25 H4ns: great, thanks a whole lot! 17:01:09 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA152.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:01:13 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:24 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA152.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:01:31 Fade: how long have you been coding lisp? 17:01:33 stassats`: It can be, I've definitely gotten benefit from lurking here. But, I've also wasted time here that I should have been coding. 17:01:43 H4ns: how about you? How long have you been a lisper? 17:01:52 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 17:02:04 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.242.133.68] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:02:25 In my opinion, chatting, and having friends who also do lisp is one of the pleasures of learning lisp. It wouldn't be as fun if everyone just did code but never talked. 17:02:28 emma: Don't know about you, but to really learn a language, I try coding projects. It all depends on how good your memory is and how good you are at adapting. 17:02:58 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:03:08 "Master" is subjective. "Produce results" is probably a better measure. 17:03:54 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:04:36 well but there definitely are some people who reach the 'gestalt' level of things like lisp. 17:04:54 coding project is nice, but you have to ask a lot... #lisp is helpful :D 17:05:34 Master: write a lisp compiler which outperforms existing compilers by all aspects? 17:06:12 newlisper: "produce results" seems like as much of a buzzword as "expert" is. ;) 17:06:14 i don't think that's a measure of lisp mastery. 17:06:19 compiler design, perhaps. :) 17:06:20 Lisp is just a tool, a means to an end. The real moving and shaking comes from what is produced by the developer and the tool. 17:06:46 stassats`: that just means you're really good at writing compilers, not necessarily the use of lisp itself. 17:07:10 sykopomp: True... I think I really mean -- when you are happy with your level of knowledge, you can probably consider yourself a master, at least of as much as you have done. Hopefully you are never happy, and you are never a master. 17:07:15 sykopomp: well, you will have good understanding of semantics 17:07:50 stassats`: true 17:08:24 and if compiler is written in good lisp style 17:08:53 stassats`: what 'community' decides that style, though? :P 17:09:17 non-existent 17:09:27 *aggieben* has been doing lisp on and off for 6 years, but the real time probably adds up to about 2 years 17:10:16 "there is no cab^Wlisp comunity" 17:10:25 In any field we recognize the people of 'virtue' when we see them, and we are told it is a good idea to try to imitate them and adopt their habits. 17:10:26 :D 17:10:45 emma: I usually consider whatever PAIP says to be "standard" 17:11:03 who's paip is he here? 17:11:15 peter norvig 17:11:15 What about Paul Graham? 17:11:21 <_death> it's here on my bookshelf :) 17:11:30 paradigms in ai programming 17:11:51 emma: http://paulgraham.com/hamming.html 17:11:53 pg's style is not very common 17:11:53 of* 17:11:56 right now I need to focus on learning the basics and moving from an absolute beginner to an intermediate. 17:12:08 also, PG's style is very often disparaged by the lispers I've met 17:12:13 so I don't think it's very well-accepted 17:12:21 there's also graham crackers 17:12:24 emma: I doubt the 10 years for expertdom metric; for one, forgetting obscure internals happens faster than re-learning them (-: 17:12:28 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:12:52 When I get to be an intermediate I want to talk to some people about ways we can promote Lisp and expand the community of Lispers. 17:12:55 i also took some style notes from SICP, even when i wasn't writing in lisp 17:12:57 but you acquire a certain instinct for what works and what doesn't (and where to look it up) after a few weeks; practice over a few years and you can call yourself an expert (: 17:13:02 antifuchs: I would argue that grokking their semantics doesn't necessarily go away, even if you forget the little details. 17:13:12 sykopomp: right 17:13:21 SICP uses scheme which is a lisp. 17:13:24 olejorgenb [i=bronner@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 17:13:29 I think that's the real value of expertise, not necessarily remembering a binch of little things. 17:13:31 so PAIP style is bad ? 17:13:52 MrSpec: no, I'm saying that I consider PAIP to be the closest thing to "standard" style I've come across.. 17:13:55 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:13:56 I think I can celebrate my 10th year of common-lisping in 2011; but I think I've been in the position to do very good things with it before that (: 17:14:21 well i have to get back to work see you all later 17:14:22 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has quit [] 17:14:24 satisfying things to me, at least (-: 17:14:33 <_death> sykopomp: and yet some things aren't done in the style of PAIP 17:14:39 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:17 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-67-125-22-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:15:18 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:15:19 _death: closest thing, which is probably about as good as it gets. At least when you compare it to the java monoculture :P 17:15:34 <_death> sykopomp: for example the use of CLOS (then again PAIP was out in 1992..) 17:15:49 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:53 well, Keene's book is older 17:16:09 hmm I was thinking about buying PAIP, but know I'm thinking if there is better book ? about AI programming ? 17:16:10 she addresses clos prior to the standard, yeah? 17:16:11 though, she worked on CLOS itself 17:16:11 <_death> stassats: and PAIP has a chapter about CLOS 17:16:37 <_death> MrSpec: PAIP is an amazing book 17:16:40 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17DB46.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:42 Fade: yes, some things got changed, but not significantly 17:16:53 *nod* 17:17:09 who caught david moon's talk yesterday? 17:17:11 was it good? 17:17:56 MrSpec: PAIP is great, but I don't think it's really an AI book... 17:18:06 <_death> sykopomp: another small thing is that Norvig uses #'(lambda ...), but says that if CL had a `lambda' macro he'd use that instead.. well, CL since then got a `lambda' macro.. so which one do you use? :) 17:18:30 maybe not AI, but some kind of introduction to more pro programming 17:18:31 sykopomp: I think that opinion just sold me on picking the book up. I figured the AI subject was too specific for my current interests. 17:18:52 jestocost [n=cmell@y192004.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:18:52 _death: I use (lambda ()...), but there's still lots of people that use #', and I think that's of little consequence 17:18:54 Fade: this http://wingolog.org/archives/2009/03/24/international-lisp-conference-day-two describes it slightly 17:18:55 at the university lisp was very bad teached, but I was interested in it 17:19:04 _death: I think part of good style is knowing when some new idiom is better, and using it. 17:19:06 -!- crod [n=cmell@x250017.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:19 MrSpec: Same here. They never mentioned "defmacro". 17:19:33 <_death> sykopomp: well it's not just a matter of style, but yeah, I use `lambda' too.. I was just picking on the "do whatever PAIP does" 17:19:34 now I'm writing some linear equations solver in Lisp insted of ICON 17:19:34 stassats`: thanks 17:19:36 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:40 I hope I will be able :D 17:20:04 _death: in general, I have my own little deviations :P 17:20:12 newlisper, yeah, no informations :S 17:20:20 anyways, I'm out. Have a good day, #lisp 17:20:25 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA152.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:20:29 bye 17:21:05 ah. common-lisp.net is back. 17:21:54 bsummersett__ [n=bsummers@udhcp-macvpn-537.public.engin.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 17:22:09 lol rsynnott you've got a very funny "about me" on your blog 17:23:47 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 17:23:50 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:24:50 -!- bsummersett [n=bsummers@udhcp-macvpn-504.public.engin.umich.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:28:38 rsynnott: yes, i'm talking about wigflip, probably focusing on automotivator 17:30:07 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:31:27 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:07 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:32:18 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:33:17 I dig the presentation-in-paper dynamic 17:33:49 i do too 17:35:10 FP + interoperability is a strong point 17:35:32 <_death> clojure talk? 17:35:32 <_death> 17:35:44 sussman talking on evolvability 17:35:46 I don't think anyone could say he doesn't know what he's talking about :) 17:36:24 i dunno. they replaced scheme with python for the sicp course. :) 17:36:27 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:36:45 Beket [n=stathis@adsl-246-039.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 17:36:51 <_death> do they write a python interpreter now? 17:37:07 i sort of doubt it. 17:37:15 they control robots 17:37:15 don't think so, no 17:37:30 he talked about that yesterday 17:37:38 jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has joined #lisp 17:37:57 I'm curious what his lightning talk tomorrow will be on, heh 17:38:47 -!- jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 17:40:15 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CFBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:04 <_death> interesting.. I would think Sussman really hate to work with Python, as the style (at least in my experience) is to, for example, write loops where simple functions like `find-if' would do 17:42:34 _death: it's possible that he's "gone Jedi", and transcended language 17:43:00 guy steele's interest in fortran probably denoted the same sort of transition. 17:43:10 You have different tasks and issues when programming tiny robots. That's true for me in scheme and probably just the same in python. 17:43:13 <_death> rich_holygoat: I wasn't talking about language, but about style 17:43:18 Sussman doesn't teach the class 17:43:40 hasn't for x years now 17:44:06 he taught the final lecture, I read. 17:44:07 I generally find style and language to be less tied than people think... e.g., it's possible to write quite functional Java. you're right he probably wouldn't enjoy it, though. 17:44:41 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17DB46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:45:40 -!- beach` is now known as beach 17:46:02 Good evening. 17:46:08 evening beach 17:47:20 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 17:47:21 Boy, lots of Lisp activity at work these days. This morning, three hours of Lisp project class, tomorrow morning a lecture about LispOS related stuff, Thursday, a seminar in my series about Lisp for my colleages, and Friday, 3 hours of class in a different project course. 17:48:10 trying to make everyone jealous? 17:48:19 :) 17:48:20 Just reporting facts. 17:48:27 beach: that's a good amount of lisping, sounds like fun :) 17:48:37 Yeah, tiring, but fun 17:48:37 hey, a bunch of this room is doing lisp all day --- we're at ILC :) 17:48:51 ianmcorvidae: trying to make me jealous? :) 17:48:52 well, hearing about it all day, at the least 17:48:58 A lot of engineers still use fortran and it still appeals to me from time to time. But, I'm happy with the F95 standard. Every standard after that seems to be adhering to Greenspun's Tenth. No one seems to support more than F95, anyway. 17:49:00 haha 17:49:12 some of us are writing it too ;) 17:49:39 dlowe: that's where i sit .. but i'd rather be at ILC. 17:50:14 oh, I meant I was doing both 17:50:40 pwn 17:50:42 heh, I should hang out with you more -- I've been actually lisp-ing not nearly enough while I've been here 17:50:43 dlowe: jerk! 17:50:47 lol 17:51:15 *dlowe* is achieving lisp supersaturation. 17:51:37 to simulate the fun of being at ILC, i've been reading the old epic c.l.l threads. 17:51:51 hah 17:51:55 that was only last night :P 17:51:58 Meh, I wish LiSP didn't use maroonet 17:52:37 <_death> it's easy to translate to CLOS 17:53:04 But I don't want to translate all of the scheme. :{ 17:53:49 does ILC have mandatory waiting period before presenters can post their presentation slides? I'm quite curious about Mr. Verna's 17:54:10 surely not, since some have already been posted 17:54:53 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 17:54:53 have they? they were crossed out last time I checked.... time to go check again 17:55:02 pkhuong: nice post on your SSE excursion at the weekend. 17:55:26 when I say "some", I mean "some", not "those exact slides you were looking for" 17:56:15 <_death> there was ambiguity there 17:56:42 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:56:43 touche 17:57:03 <_death> some of Verna's or some of presenters 17:57:18 yes, people frequently post only the even-numbered pages 17:57:44 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:57:57 <_death> that sounds like a good idea to keep everyone in suspense :) 17:58:51 sure, so that when you print those out you have exactly the right thing for when the odd pages are posted to have a duplex printed copy 17:59:16 I'd say release by the fibbonacci series; release the first two, the fourth, the seventh, so forth :P 18:00:15 you mean fifth and eigth? 18:00:23 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:39 nah, I meant decide the jump by the fibbonacci series 18:00:42 we have a drinking game at our office that involves the fibbonacci sequence. 18:00:59 but we have to make sure there are paramedics on site when it's played. 18:01:00 evil 18:01:13 start +1 -> first +1 -> second +2 -> fourth ... 18:01:32 it gets messy fast. 18:01:33 lol 18:01:42 hah 18:01:45 I can imagine 18:01:53 next time try drinking by factorial 18:02:46 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 18:03:03 Sussman's talk is crazy awesome. 18:03:05 Fade: i think, by definition of a good drinking game, it's supposed to get messy fast :) 18:03:05 drinking by factorial would amount to death, I think. 18:03:25 but the fibbonacci sequence is hilarious. 18:03:48 -!- deat [n=deat@88.172.174.215] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:03:49 well, you could resort to milligramms 18:03:54 especially when you get too pissed to add 18:04:31 WebGuest [n=WebGuest@c-0f5fe353.732-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:04:31 we have a little qt app where you hit the spacebar at the end of each round. ;) 18:05:10 <_death> Ackermann binge 18:06:02 or sieve of eratosthenes, each number is represented by one full glass, and you drink non-primes 18:06:27 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:09:30 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:09:42 dwave_ [n=ask@212251241158.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:09:48 we have a game that involves occular adminstration of MDMA while throwing away pizza ... we call it "E to the eye, minus pie" 18:10:19 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:30 mah-haha 18:10:32 ugh 18:10:45 (sorry) 18:11:11 "Extended Riemann hypothesis is proved: Drink everything you can find." 18:11:31 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:11:55 does it say that you will die at some point? 18:12:33 i guess that depends on whether you are playing the non-deterministic variant of the game. 18:13:12 kmcorbett [n=Keith@dhcp-18-111-20-88.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:13:17 hello 18:13:33 (drink (choose '(whiskey pop vodka absinthe drain-o))) 18:13:44 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:55 -!- ``Erik__ is now known as ``Erik 18:15:34 s/drink (choose/mapc #'drink/ 18:17:34 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:17:59 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-125-112.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 18:18:14 Hey, I want the results of drinking, not just the side effects 18:18:19 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:18:21 <_death> drink usually generates garbage, so might as well return it ;) 18:18:35 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 18:18:41 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:18:49 Is there a function which does (not (null x)) ? 18:18:52 heh 18:19:04 yeah, where's your functional style --- we're trying to eliminate side effects here ;) 18:19:09 s/'\(([^)]*\))/'#1=\1 . #1#)/ 18:19:10 <_death> tomoyuki28jp: identity 18:19:20 <_death> tomoyuki28jp: well, kind of :) 18:19:29 clhs identity 18:19:34 err 18:19:35 T is overrated 18:19:38 what is it, again 18:19:48 <_death> guaqua: minion's on vacation 18:19:49 tomoyuki28jp: ensure-boolean as in (defun ensure-boolean (x) (not (not x))) 18:19:59 _death: I want the function to only return boolean, but identity does not. 18:20:02 _death: okay. this time i didn't get it wrong then :) 18:20:37 -!- Beket [n=stathis@adsl-246-039.diodos.auth.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:46 people who get upset at a result not being T would probably be happier with scheme 18:21:06 Beket [n=stathis@adsl-246-039.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 18:21:30 tomoyuki28jp: normally, you should care about strict boolean only in output, or final results. If you have intermediary results, don't bother. 18:21:55 pjb: yes 18:22:14 dlowe: however, few CL implementation have (= 2 2) -> 2 18:22:42 pjb: I didn't say NIL was overrated 18:22:50 rey_ [i=pdewacht@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 18:22:54 <_death> pjb: what would (= 2 2.0) be? 18:23:03 You said T was overrated. 18:23:11 _death: could be anything. 2.0 would be good. 18:23:27 anything but NIL of course. 18:23:41 <_death> pjb: yes, but arbitrary 18:23:43 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.246.74] has quit ["leaving"] 18:23:56 pjb: I'm not sure what you're getting at. I wouldn't usually care if = returned :buttsex 18:25:00 <_death> arbitrary truth -> preference for T 18:25:07 Well, there must still be a reason if implementations return T when they could return some other generalized boolean instead. One advantage for example, would be to reduce the life time of garbage. 18:25:23 *dlowe* would promote such an implementation. 18:25:49 -!- kenyao [n=kenyao@58.61.214.96] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26:37 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.242.52] has joined #lisp 18:27:54 I would have preferred that functions needing an arbitrary truth value would use an uninterned T so we could use t as a variable name :p 18:28:02 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca98.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:29 dlowe: that is a good point! 18:28:37 dlowe: really! (shadow 't) 18:29:04 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:29:11 <_death> I don't think `t' makes for a good variable name in general 18:29:43 _death: it's usually 'time' when i want to use it. 18:29:46 physicists hate that they can't use t 18:29:59 <_3b> annoying for gfx types too 18:30:25 are we to serve languages or are they to serve us? 18:30:31 <_death> luckily CL is designed for programmers ;) 18:30:40 clhs shadow 18:31:42 It's okay to use 't so long as the other folks who will ever look at that code understand exactly what it means. 18:31:47 your klugy workaround is noted 18:33:22 p_l [n=plasek@pp82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:35:44 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.247.179] has joined #lisp 18:35:53 I suspect it would break CASE in horrible ways 18:36:05 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:36:15 Beket_ [n=stathis@adsl-255-057.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 18:36:39 (cl:'t (...)) ? 18:36:41 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:36:52 I know I got that wrong somehow. 18:37:02 newlisper: you did, yes. 18:37:02 <_death> newlisper: remove quote 18:37:16 <_death> dlowe: the solution is easy! just shadow case... ;) 18:37:23 (ecase strict-bool ((cl:nil) ...) ((cl:t) ...)) 18:38:00 actually shadow does just what dlowe asked: it renders cl:t uninterned in the current package. 18:39:53 (case my-char (#\a 'foo) (#\b 'bar) (cl:t 'yuck)) 18:39:56 -!- p_l is now known as p_l|backup 18:40:05 <_death> otherwise 18:41:43 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.242.52] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:42:46 -!- WebGuest is now known as schmx 18:43:44 -!- schmx [n=WebGuest@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:43:55 WebGuest [n=WebGuest@c-0f5fe353.732-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:44:41 -!- WebGuest is now known as schmx 18:44:54 yeah, otherwise would work. It still smells as a solution 18:45:06 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has left #lisp 18:45:10 dlowe: cl:t is still shorter. 18:45:16 What are you complaining about? 18:45:22 You have exactly what you asked. 18:45:39 everyone knows that any problem with lisp can be fixed with the appropriate 15k header file 18:45:41 -!- Athas [n=athas@80.161.87.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:45 <_death> would you prefer that T be a symbol macro rather than a constant? 18:46:15 <_death> or that it be just a plain ol' symbol? 18:46:25 that seems like a lot of work just to reclaim 't' as a user definable symbol. 18:46:27 That isn't what I asked, so you are incorrect 18:47:04 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:17 -!- Beket [n=stathis@adsl-246-039.diodos.auth.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:49:22 -!- Beket_ [n=stathis@adsl-255-057.diodos.auth.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:49:38 <_death> Fade: why does that seem like a lot of work? it looks like a change that has very real consequences to me 18:50:15 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:50:48 well, to me, it just seems like a solution in search of a problem. 18:51:42 what do you see as the positive consequences? 18:51:50 MadZone [n=Im-YourH@host86-161-228-111.range86-161.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:57 I stop being annoyed and complaining on #lisp 18:53:51 I'm entirely aware that every solution is worth less than the cost 18:53:55 <_death> Fade: maybe there's a misunderstanding. I thought you wondered why just reclaiming `t' as a user-definable symbol is so much work.. I didn't say that it's a good idea, or that there was a real problem there (for me) that needed this solution 18:54:38 repnop [n=repnop@adsl-69-226-99-176.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:43 no, i was just trying to imagine why you'd want to. 18:55:14 <_death> Fade: from what I understood, some would want to be able to use it as a variable name 18:55:56 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151257.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 18:55:57 recently someone wanted to use : in symbol names... 18:56:07 without escaping 18:56:09 there's so much you can do in lisp, i think lisp programmers in general need a higher than average dose of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should." 18:56:45 I don't understand what in (shadow 't) is too much work? 18:56:46 <_death> Fade: I think Lisp programmers in general understand that principle, which is why typical Lisp code isn't a mess 18:56:57 that's likely true. 18:57:20 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:57:24 -!- CrEddy [n=mispunct@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:32 <_3b> fade: if you want to pass the texture coordinates R,S,T,Q to a function, what do you call the arguments? 18:57:34 pjb: writing the comment in the code explaining why you shadowed t 18:57:49 -!- MadZone [n=Im-YourH@host86-161-228-111.range86-161.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:57:59 pjb: It'll hunt you when you least expect it. 18:58:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:58:08 I was wondering... Surely it's possible to code in ugly lisp (not intentionally -- of course you can obfuscate, just ignorantly). Are there ugly lisp projects out there? 18:58:18 <_3b> cl-opengl calls them r s _t q if i remember right 18:58:36 any code describing a malformed idea is likely ugly. 18:58:42 unless it's perverse. :) 18:58:50 I'm not talking about reimplementing perl... 18:59:01 pjb: As you know, CL:T is used for a lot of things. 18:59:03 <_3b> my lisp compiler code is pretty ugly :p 18:59:14 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:31 so by that definition, there are probably numerous lisp systems that are 'ugly' 18:59:42 <_death> newlisper: a lot of old lisp code would be considered ugly today 18:59:49 probably any lisp system written in vim is going to be at least aesthetically deficient. 18:59:51 newlisper: Better read idiomatic source code. 19:00:33 tcr: What is considered idiomatic now? (aside from reading the file in emacs) 19:00:49 newlisper: the topic is unbounded. 19:00:54 :) 19:01:40 I have been thinking about starting up my own little lisp project (writing a game), but my fear is my ignorance. I need the benefit of code review. 19:02:01 newlisper: release early, release often... 19:02:11 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Operation timed out] 19:02:13 if it works, your code passes 19:02:20 write the system. the action will answer your questions better than talking about the code. 19:02:34 <_death> newlisper: Edi Weitz's libraries are usually written in Lisp that is considered idiomatic 19:02:52 newlisper: Alexandria contains lots of small functions that are written pretty idiomatic 19:03:03 -!- bsummersett__ [n=bsummers@udhcp-macvpn-537.public.engin.umich.edu] has quit [] 19:03:53 <_3b> if you aren't sure about something, lisppaste a function or 2 and ask for feedback 19:04:38 _3b: Well, sometimes one does not know what questions to ask or that something is not quite right in the first place. 19:04:58 But I suppose I could hop in here sometime and say, "If you want to check out some newbie code..." 19:05:23 Pretty much any of your first attempts will be suboptimal. 19:05:34 Yes that's a good idea. 19:05:42 thanks for the idiomatic code pointers 19:06:05 ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-126-11.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:06 this must be why hefner didn't want to go to ILC 19:08:28 ctx plz? 19:09:10 they're bashing mcclim? =) 19:09:39 no, just jonl speaking about regexes for html parsing or something 19:10:07 sounds.. innovative 19:10:13 <_death> ouch 19:10:33 yeah, that's a... uh, good word for it 19:10:52 "now you have two problems" 19:11:25 actually three if you take jonl into account 19:11:29 bsummersett [n=bsummers@udhcp-macvpn-626.public.engin.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 19:11:34 lol 19:11:35 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 19:11:36 thanks, jwz 19:11:37 :) 19:13:08 <_death> tcr: any recent progress on alexandria btw? 19:13:46 and now we move into lightning talks; hopefully these are as good as yesterday's (in general) 19:13:57 _death: it doesn't seem like nikodemus has risen from the ashes yet 19:14:20 I do like the lightning talk format 19:14:32 Is nikodemus at ilc? 19:14:39 tcr: no 19:14:41 but the guy was talking about using regexes in a production model 19:15:29 does nikodemus use irc? 19:15:44 sometimes. 19:16:15 mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca98.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:17:25 <_death> tcr: some things that I would like to see: u8/u16/u32 types, defsubst, singlep, doseq, default (but this last one may be just me) 19:18:43 _death: dosequence is in my repository at http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/alexandria/sequence-iterators.lisp 19:18:55 _death: I consider releasing it on its own. 19:20:20 <_death> nice 19:20:47 "trivial-dosequence"? 19:21:09 not quite trivial, I don't think. 19:21:15 Just a self-contained lisp file 19:21:32 <_death> why not with alexandria? 19:23:15 I wouldn't mind it seeing there. It's just that getting stuff in there takes long time, and conviction. 19:23:30 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:19 <_death> ah, also gethash/i.. and I lately found myself using agetf (which is like getf, but for alists).. but doesn't seem that ubiquitous 19:25:05 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:11 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:12 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit ["brb"] 19:25:28 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-193.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 19:25:35 wormilwork [n=Miranda@adsl-070-155-056-058.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:19 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 19:35:22 do you have complicated macro definitions? 19:35:23 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:35:32 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:06 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:36:20 tcr: no. When macro definitions become complex, they're subdivided in function calls. 19:36:49 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:20 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@216.165.145.79] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:39 <_death> tcr: for the macros I mentioned? 19:39:25 _death: In general. Just look at how dosequences is defined, it uses something which allows you to write macros in an imperative vecto-like style (or like inserting text into emacs buffers) 19:40:45 <_death> well `out' is in that style, I suppose 19:42:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:42:36 <_death> extensible macros tend to be like that 19:44:39 <_death> so I guess the good points are made in AMOP.. layers 19:46:52 xuanwu [n=xuanwu@gneiss.cs.indiana.edu] has joined #lisp 19:46:53 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-2591.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:47:31 -!- xuanwu [n=xuanwu@gneiss.cs.indiana.edu] has left #lisp 19:51:10 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:56 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:29 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 19:55:58 _Tricks3 [i=Trickste@84.42.57.45] has joined #lisp 19:58:41 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 19:59:09 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:59:24 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:59:27 CrEddy [n=carpaine@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 19:59:41 hello ppls 20:00:25 -!- simard [n=simard@modemcable234.226-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:02:41 Harag pasted "Macro Help please!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77536 20:04:01 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@97-89-230-116.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:04:20 dls [n=dls@adsl-63-199-242-27.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:27 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [] 20:04:28 if anybody has a moment free could you please help me with the macro in the above paste 20:04:30 <_3b> you can't just replace values with teh (mapcar ...)? adding , as needed for the args 20:05:35 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:06:21 <_3b> oh, i guess values is inside a , already... what do you want the expansion to look like? 20:06:24 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:06:33 Harag: a macro must return one form. Why do you use VALUES? 20:07:05 <_3b> pjb: isn't it a variable? 20:07:25 <_death> I'm not sure what the problem is 20:07:43 yes. It wasn't indented correctly. Sorry. 20:07:54 Harag: can you repaste or message me the link? 20:07:58 pjb: i need to populate values from hunchentoot:parameter eventually 20:08:28 http://paste.lisp.org/display/77536 20:08:30 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-17-204-190.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:11 <_death> do you want `(string-downcase ... ,widget-name ... ,(write-to-string y)) ? 20:09:34 Harag: so what's the problem. It works ok here. 20:09:53 pjb it works in that form 20:10:11 jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has joined #lisp 20:10:12 (macroexpand-1 '(with-widget "my-widget" (test-var) (progn (format nil "help-----~a" test-var)))) --> (LET ((#1=#:TEST-VAR10389 "my-widgettest-var")) (LET ((TEST-VAR #1#)) (PROGN (FORMAT NIL "help-----~a" TEST-VAR)))) ; T 20:10:15 but I need (parameter (string-downcase ... ,widget-name ... ,(write-to-string y))) eventually 20:10:18 Anyone here old school enough to know what TENEX was implemented in? Assembly? 20:10:24 Harag: so what? 20:10:29 Harag: How about saying what you want? 20:10:38 parameter uses *request* and *request* does not exist at macro expansion time 20:10:50 It doesn't matter. 20:11:05 -!- _Tricks3 [i=Trickste@84.42.57.45] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:11:14 it does because i get error trying to use the macro 20:11:20 _Tricks3 [i=Trickste@84.42.57.45] has joined #lisp 20:11:29 Is that last "variables" supposed to be ",variables"? 20:11:39 Or ",@variables" 20:11:41 Of course, when you use the macro it should be defined. In the meantime you check it with macroexpand-1 20:12:00 <_death> Harag: answer _3b's question, nopaste the expected macro expansion 20:12:08 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 20:12:46 ok let me do the expected expantion... 20:14:48 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 20:14:53 bleh that ohloh.net icon makes opening paste.lisp.org entries quite a bit slower for me 20:15:01 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:15:29 <_death> emacs-w3m? adblock? ... 20:15:43 firefox can block images by host 20:15:49 no I mean the extra connection to ohloh.net 20:16:52 Does emacs have a module or inherently do that same colorful parentheses highlighting that paste.lisp.org does? 20:17:37 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF09A90.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:48 <_death> google for angry fruit salad ;) 20:17:55 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@212251241158.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 20:17:59 Heh :) 20:18:30 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:31 newlisper: paste.lisp.org only needs that because occasionally people submit there who do not use a good editor 20:19:38 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has left #lisp 20:20:02 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:08 it's for us trying to decipher the mess that some people submit there 20:20:12 <_death> there was that nested block shading code 20:20:55 omg, hannes beat me to it. that's like irspect, except for dylan, interactive, and actually useful 20:21:01 I once had the unfortunate experience of using an editor whose lisp mode had clearly been written by someon who never used it 20:21:27 "hmm, lots of brackets, they must be important. let's make them really stand out" 20:21:31 <_death> http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/ 20:21:44 <_death> look at mwe-color-box 20:22:02 <_3b> http://nschum.de/src/emacs/highlight-parentheses/ is another variant 20:22:23 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@dhcp-18-111-20-88.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 20:22:29 <_3b> (slightly subtler than the box highlight one) 20:22:31 lichtblau: screenshots or it didn't happen 20:22:59 I guess "irspec" is "IRspec" ie you clim tool for showing SBCL's IR 20:23:57 What?!? You don't have to modify the language/standard to get rid of parentheses? Scandalous. 20:24:54 I like how transient mark mode is in controversial issues... 20:26:42 that highlight-parentheses-mode is pretty much useless to me. being colorblind and all :/ 20:27:09 <_death> heh, you can actually claim that you don't see the parens 20:27:13 I realized after mentioning it and being reminded of angry fruit salad that the parentheses didn't really exist anyway. 20:27:18 :) 20:27:26 _death: maybe :) 20:27:35 newlisper: That's a common misconception. 20:27:43 Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:28:14 tcr: Nah, I know what it really means. :) I normally only need enough info to find a particular matching parenthesis. 20:28:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 20:28:19 what was the function through which I could see the fully macro-compiler-expanded form of an sexp? 20:28:32 Experienced Lispers do see parentheses, opening ones, as they denote the structure of the AST 20:28:48 madnificent: M-x slime-compiler-macro-expand 20:28:58 tcr: ty! 20:29:26 I was always told that experienced lispers see ASTs... 20:29:29 Perhaps followed by a subsequent C-c M-m (slime-macroexpand-all) 20:29:55 <_death> it's not always a tree... ;) 20:29:56 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:30:02 Do most people here use slime-close-all-parens-in-sexp or the equivalent or manually insert closing parens so they can see the corresponding opening parens flash? 20:30:29 <_death> gigamonkey: I use the former 20:30:30 Harag annotated #77536 "expantion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77536#1 20:30:36 gigamonkey: I do it manually, but perhaps that's because I don't know/have a shortkey for the former 20:30:37 I've recently become addicted to PAREDIT 20:30:37 I think many just use paredit 20:30:42 gigamonkey: I use paredit 20:30:47 I prefer manual... and moving my cursor over it. 20:30:49 I am old school 20:30:52 I guess that's the third choice. 20:30:52 it inserts the closing paren automatically 20:31:06 Harag: Why the two LETs? 20:31:06 a highly inefficient almost-vanilla-emacs user 20:31:11 <_death> madnificent: `C-c C-]' 20:31:16 Krystof: meaning you carve them out of old growth redwoods with a piece of stone? 20:31:23 PAREDIT also has some nice commands for moving forms. 20:31:43 http://xkcd.com/378/ 20:31:43 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 20:31:47 -!- ejs [n=eugen@137-80-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:31:50 csr21@omega:~/sbcl$ cmp obj/from-{xcl,sbcl}-xc/src/code/show.lisp-obj 20:32:01 csr21@omega:~/sbcl$ 20:32:02 _death: now I'll see what I prefer over the following months :) 20:32:03 (yay) 20:32:05 gigamonkey: I don't like things which automatically insert brackets 20:32:54 rsynnott: Yeah. I like to pound 'em in by hand myself. 20:33:29 i've become quite reliant on paredit. 20:33:36 tcr: it is so that I have my own copy of the varable if the user desides to change the variable value in the &body 20:33:37 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:34:53 the problem with paredit, though, is at the slime repl, it's hard to define multiline forms because the sexp's always look complete and slime sends them to the compiler. 20:35:46 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@dhcp-18-111-20-88.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:35:54 -!- schmx [n=WebGuest@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:36:02 <_3b> that gets annoying even without paredit though, frequently takes me a few tries to add a line in the middle of a form at the slime repl 20:36:03 *stassats`* doesn't use paredit at the repl 20:36:32 C-b & C-f also work 20:36:43 I wonder how hard it would be to get SLIME to notice that the cursor is in the middle of the form and not send it. 20:36:44 i just haven't taken the time to figure out how to turn it off there. 20:37:11 don't turn it on? 20:37:15 I had to explicitly turn paredit on for the REPL. Still not convinced I like it. 20:37:42 gigamonkey: I thought it did that 20:37:58 perhaps it did at some point in past 20:38:10 Not in whatever quite-possibly-old version I'm running. 20:38:22 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 20:38:30 With whatever more-or-less-random set of options I have turned on. 20:38:35 xuanwu [n=xuanwu@gneiss.cs.indiana.edu] has joined #lisp 20:38:47 that's the spirit 20:39:01 i pretty often use C-j, not only in the repl 20:39:12 so i have no troubles adding lines in the repl 20:39:33 tcr: well, in my defense, most of my Emacs customization fu these days is devoted to making it easier to chop giant piles of transcripts down to a reasonable size. 20:39:52 stassats`: yeah. that's the way to go 20:40:05 gigamonkey: how far are you? 20:40:29 Hard to say. I ended up with ~1,200 pages of lightly cleaned up transcripts. 20:40:29 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:40:32 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 20:40:43 speaking in terms of book progress? 20:40:44 The book is supposed to be ~350 pages though I just learned we have some flexibility on length. 20:40:46 transcripts of what? 20:40:53 http://www.codersatwork.com/ 20:41:21 in other fantastic news, it appears like debian no longer has the dependencies required to build darcs. :P 20:41:49 jfm3 [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 20:42:09 what's been your personal favorite interview? 20:42:09 i've just about had it with haskell and it's insane toolchain issues. 20:42:23 I think Bernie Cosell. 20:42:30 gigamonkey: Looks great. When I read the first paragraph, the first thing I thought was, "I wonder if JWZ was interviewd?" 20:42:31 hi gigamonkey (-: 20:42:39 yo antifuchs 20:42:47 adeht annotated #77536 "this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77536#2 20:44:23 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca98.adsl.enternet.hu] has left #lisp 20:45:27 tmh: he was also fun to talk to. 20:46:02 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:46:11 gigamonkey: Looking forward to the book. 20:46:25 Me too. And my editor. ;-) 20:47:01 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:34 -!- xuanwu [n=xuanwu@gneiss.cs.indiana.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:24 adeht: thanx that gives the expantion but i get an The variable *REQUEST* is unbound. 20:49:25 [Condition of type UNBOUND-VARIABLE] 20:49:44 <_death> Harag: that's because you should call `parameter' only within a request 20:50:08 yeah 20:50:22 but the macro is called in a request 20:50:33 <_death> Harag: macros aren't called 20:50:34 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216.171.189.59] has quit [] 20:50:55 ejs [n=eugen@137-80-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:05 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-20-9.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:26 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:51:27 Harag: It's the expansion that is called during the request. 20:51:29 well then the expansion of the macro is within a request ?!?!? 20:51:36 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 20:51:38 pkhuong pasted "SSE Intrinsics for string=" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77541 20:51:55 Harag: Not the process of the expansion. 20:52:03 <_death> Harag: if you put the expansion of the form instead, you should see the same error 20:52:18 ok let me try that thanx death 20:52:26 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:37 <_death> (make sure to replace gensyms) 20:52:41 mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca98.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 20:52:48 Afternoon all. 20:53:00 Is in Lisp any function to delete all list's elements ? 20:53:03 hey nyef 20:53:18 MrSpec: you mean 'nil'? :) 20:53:41 in many ways I am still new to lisp and need to learn some "good" habbits when trying to figure whats going on ... macroexpand is one of those habbits I should aquire...*sight* 20:54:01 rich_holygoat, nil ? 20:54:21 nil is a list with no elements 20:54:31 yeah 20:54:38 Harag: Do you use Slime? 20:54:40 but I'd like to make my list empty 20:54:49 MrSpec: "there is no list" 20:54:51 something like (setf lst '()) 20:55:07 MrSpec: That works, you'll get an empty list. 20:55:08 so if you mean "I have a list bound to the symbol x, and I'd like to make x empty", try (setf x nil) or (let ((x nil)) ...). 20:55:12 pkhuong: very nice 20:55:13 MrSpec: what's wrong with that? (Other than the Scheme accent.) 20:55:22 ok, but I was wondering if there is function for it ;] 20:55:38 Krystof: Thanks for finding my accidental use of sb-vm in genesis. 20:55:45 tcr: yes I do use slime 20:55:46 -!- jfm3 [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:55:48 (defmacro nil-out (var) `(setf ,var nil)) 20:55:50 as sometimes I write something that is already in lisp 20:55:54 nyef: don't thank me, thank clisp! :-) 20:56:01 Harag: C-c C-m macroexpands the form at point 20:56:03 -!- aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009021910]"] 20:56:10 MrSpec: there is nothin to be done, so there is no function 20:56:18 <_death> MrSpec: Paul Graham calls this macro `nil!' 20:56:23 well what little of slime I understand and have learnt so far 20:56:35 ok, thx :] 20:56:42 MrSpec: plus it can't be a function--it would have to be a macro (or a special operator). Just to be pedantic. 20:56:45 Harag: (You can use C-c C-m within the macroexpansion buffer again, and again) 20:56:51 thanx tcr 20:56:58 Krystof: the base-string/base-string and simple-base-string/simple-base-string cases will be easy and awesome ;) 20:57:11 pkhuong: I noticed a bare 1 displacement for your EA calculations in your blog post. What about make-ea-for-object-slot? 20:57:26 egoz [n=egoz@125.166.160.177] has joined #lisp 20:57:52 I shall, yes (: I probably should have before posting it. 20:58:15 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:33 I also noticed, on looking at genesis, that I'd mised a trick and had three successive top-level forms with #!+x86 conditions instead of a progn. 21:00:25 <_death> MrSpec: there's also a `nilf' macro in On Lisp.. 21:00:59 Please do not make it sound like it's a good idea 21:01:00 _death: Really. Man, that's gross. 21:01:16 Tell me he makes it clear that that's just a silly example. 21:01:18 <_death> gigamonkey: I don't use it.. to each his own I guess 21:01:24 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 21:01:27 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:01:59 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@87.3.131.179] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 21:02:08 <_death> gigamonkey: no, iirc PG gave it as an example as a small thing that "really makes a difference" 21:02:13 <_death> when there's lots of code 21:03:11 at least nobody says that PG is a good language designer ;) 21:03:20 <_death> tcr: I don't actually see it as a bad idea.. just something I wouldn't use. 21:03:21 *gigamonkey* cringes 21:03:30 2 21:03:34 bah 21:04:05 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:04:05 _death: It mostly just seems like something that if you're doing it (nil'ing out variables) often enough to care to write a macro, you probably have some other deeper problems. 21:04:34 coitus abstractus 21:04:42 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 21:05:13 <_death> that's true.. and I would think that PG agrees with you, given all that talk about "setf tax" 21:05:21 I'm having a hard time thinking of scenarios where I would (setf symbol nil). 21:05:43 'nil, rather 21:05:46 <_death> tmh: s/symbol/place/ 21:05:54 pkhuong: and how does this affect your awesome string-case thing? 21:06:08 tmh: I've done it before 21:06:34 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-20-9.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:06:37 *p_l|backup* wonders about using CommonQT in production code 21:06:41 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-20-9.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:44 tmh: (defvar *results* (generate-gigabytes-of-results)) 21:06:44 for example, in a query engine you might decide that some extracted thing can actually be ignored 21:06:50 actually, pkhuong, don't you have way too many cool hacks? You can be the next lichtblau 21:06:57 but you do that after extracting the first thing 21:07:09 simplest way to phrase it is to just set the extracted thing back to nil 21:07:28 Krystof: should be almost obsolete. 21:07:33 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:17 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:08:17 I was planning to harness the both of you, and use your string-matching thing and lichtblau's extension of my generic specializers to produce fast defmethod/string-case 21:08:58 hm, but has anyone ever seen the pair of you in the same place? 21:09:07 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 21:09:14 We're ~7 hours apart, I believe. 21:09:31 even now? 21:09:34 pjb: That reminds me, I have used global parameters for setting defaults, then have optional parameters like (args &optional (var *var*)). If the function has internal defaults, (setf *var* 'nil). 21:09:38 lichtblau is at ILC 21:10:43 ew [n=egoz@125.166.169.192] has joined #lisp 21:10:43 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 21:11:25 -!- ew is now known as huhuhu 21:11:25 Rather, nil. My brain is fried. 21:11:25 -!- huhuhu is now known as sdjflamsd 21:11:25 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:25 Make that 6 hours of driving then (: 21:11:25 <_death> tmh: what's wrong with `let'? 21:12:04 _death: nothing, I use that as well. Sometimes, I might like to set *var* at the toplevel and let things rip. 21:12:17 <_death> I see 21:13:11 nyef: do you think you can write me a new instruction format definition? SB-DISASSEM is scary. 21:13:24 -!- ejs [n=eugen@137-80-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:13:50 -!- sdjflamsd [n=egoz@125.166.169.192] has left #lisp 21:14:02 pkhuong: Possibly. It's actually fairly straightforward once you've wrapped your head around it. 21:15:18 A full format definition, or just a printer clause for a define-instruction? 21:15:36 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1F56A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:25 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 21:17:58 -!- egoz [n=egoz@125.166.160.177] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:19:23 josemanuel [n=josemanu@29.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:19:30 pkhuong: How about you paste your instruction definition and I'll take a look at it? 21:20:29 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:33 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@dhcp-18-111-20-88.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:45 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-133-68.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:21:51 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 21:22:37 -!- _Tricks3 [i=Trickste@84.42.57.45] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:26:15 -!- Qsquare [n=user@208.75.91.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27:52 -!- bsummersett [n=bsummers@udhcp-macvpn-626.public.engin.umich.edu] has quit [] 21:29:34 jao [i=jao@dhcp-18-190-9-87.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 21:29:34 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:29:37 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca98.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:04 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:31:28 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:30 pkhuong annotated #77541 "Instruction definitions" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77541#1 21:31:31 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:54 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.165.2.126] has quit [] 21:33:20 pkhuong: Hrm. Is it just psrlw that needs disassembly, or is it also the moves? 21:33:30 both. 21:34:44 I'm not sure how the funkiness wrt the moves is supposed to be expressed. 21:34:47 Earlier some users of SLIME and paredit remarked on poor interaction between SLIME's REPL and Paredit Mode over the RET and C-j keys. I believe that to attain nicer interaction it should suffice to adjust the bindings of RET and C-j in `slime-repl-mode-map' and `paredit-mode-map' so that they behave more nicely. For example, one could bind RET to `paredit-return' and C-j to `slime-repl-return'. 21:34:49 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-14.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:37:17 i also like to type (defu M-p and it searches by regexp "^\\(def" 21:37:45 I believe tcr had a patch for that too, so that the regexp only looks up to the point. 21:39:27 Okay, for psrlw you have an x66 rex x0f prefix set... Something doesn't seem right about that ordering. 21:39:34 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:07 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:40:09 No, I guess that's right. 21:40:24 Looks like it matches up a bit with the ext-rex-xmm-xmm/mem format. 21:40:31 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 21:43:33 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:18 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-2591.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 21:45:11 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F226.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:25 oh, I guess I just have to replicate MOVQ for the moves 21:47:21 I might have something for you to test for a new format in a couple minutes for psrlw. 21:47:35 thanks. 21:48:37 -!- mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:16 compiler-macro functions are called on each level, right? not just on the top level... slime-compiler-macroexpand doesn't do it 21:49:32 Unsigned imms, I presume? 21:50:16 ** this is sbcl, the spec doesn't seem to talk about it 21:51:51 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-29-229.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:19 madnificent: You have to put the pursor before the form you want the compiler-macro to be expanded 21:52:32 -!- KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:52:44 tcr: and nested forms aren't expanded, but are in the actual generation of the code? 21:53:00 you can expand within the macroexpansion buffer again 21:53:22 nyef annotated #77541 "Possibly somewhat broken, but should be a start" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77541#2 21:53:30 tcr: yes, I know that, but sbcl does that too, right? it keeps expanding? 21:54:17 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 21:54:30 ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:55:46 surely it's described in 3.1.2 iirc 21:56:09 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 21:57:41 tcr: sorry, but where (link?) I don't see it in the sbcl user manual 21:58:20 Harag pasted "Light Html Widget Framework" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77542 21:58:38 thanx for the help everyone 21:58:39 clhs 3.1.2 21:58:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ab.htm 21:59:03 that paste is my little html widget framework... 21:59:07 nyef: but I don't see it anywhere in there... 21:59:23 riclas [n=mtpra@bl11-29-56.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:59:44 -!- riclas [n=mtpra@bl11-29-56.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 21:59:47 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:00:45 madnificent: 3.1.2.1.2.2 is about macro forms. 3.2.2.1 and 3.2.2.1.3 are about compiler macros. Does this help? 22:01:44 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:01:53 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CFBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:02:51 how can I stop executing program in slime ? when C-c C-c is not working ? I have infinite recursion :S 22:03:14 Killing the sbcl process usually works for me. 22:03:27 ChibaPet [n=ChibaPet@dhcp-18-111-7-29.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 22:03:36 it is most likely not the best example of lisp code but it does its little job :) 22:03:55 killing hmm ok 22:03:56 brandonz [n=brandon@216.41.93.130] has joined #lisp 22:04:14 <_death> Harag: if widget names are symbols, why do you pass strings to `with-widget'? 22:04:14 MrSpec: ctrl-g isn't working? 22:04:15 Muahaha. I say. ALU meeting. Electing new board. Perl hacker nominated! 22:04:30 nope 22:04:48 heh yeah, this process is a bit absurd 22:05:42 You're in the room ? I'm sitting behind you then. 22:05:54 the organization's so small; I guess it comes with th territory 22:05:54 no 22:05:59 I'm straight right of you 22:06:00 oh 22:06:03 I whoised you :) 22:06:13 Alright, there's someone on some IRC channel in front of me. 22:06:17 ALU meeting? Suckers 22:06:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:06:35 question... about the ILC2009. i just found out that it was happening these last few days. is there any information on a potential discount for only attending one day? the final day ? 22:06:40 I was already in the room and it's not like I have anything better to do with that time :) 22:06:44 nyef: I can't find anything about it on those sections either. I can't infer whether or not it is recursively expanded. I assume it is, but the clhs explicitly says that implementations are free (I think I'm just going to take the guess on it) 22:07:05 Implementations are free to completely ignore compiler-macros, yes. 22:07:11 brandon - not that I know of, but perhaps you could slip in - you won't be able to get coffee or lunch :P but they're not checking badges for the lectures 22:07:24 Which is why they are an efficiency thing, not a semantics thing. 22:07:43 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:09:02 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:34 Alright, saving my battery. BBL. 22:09:36 -!- ChibaPet [n=ChibaPet@dhcp-18-111-7-29.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 22:09:37 I just wonder that IF they are expanded, will the expansion be done recursively, or not (it may do it recursively, but must it do that). Again, its no biggie if you don't know, I've learned from the experience anyway 22:09:52 Harag: It looks like you're 1% of the way to re-inventing UCW :) 22:10:22 ... Why does PCL need a code-walker? 22:10:31 bsummersett [n=bsummers@udhcp-macvpn-702.public.engin.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 22:10:37 (Alternately, is there a good intro to the PCL design I can read somewhere?) 22:10:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:10:41 nyef: somewhere in method-lambdas i'll bet 22:10:48 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:11:12 nyef: you mean other than AMOP? :P 22:11:21 *nyef* just checked AMOP and couldn't find mention of a code-walker, so it almost has to be -something- to do with optimization. 22:11:36 madnificent: Yes it will be. And you can easily get it wrong because the check if it should recurse is done by EQ 22:12:04 _death: it should not matter really the widget name is concatenated to the variable-name to get the parameter...it is just a little convention I use for naming actual html elements in the widget render 22:12:09 tcr: I have done it wrong, but fixed it :) thanks 22:12:44 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 22:13:06 <_death> Harag: it matters a great deal if you care about modularity 22:13:22 drewc: what you see there is the end of it..except for some clean-up maybe..."light" being the main issue 22:13:34 please explain _death 22:13:37 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 22:13:40 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #lisp 22:13:50 <_death> Harag: my:widget and your:widget may be different symbols, but you'd pass the same string, "widget" 22:14:14 <_death> ("same" as in equal) 22:15:07 Heh. Reminds me of the trouble I had with my alien-type-translator hack. Turns out that define-alien-type-class isn't "package-safe", it -must- be executed with *package* bound to SB-ALIEN. 22:15:32 attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.189.132] has joined #lisp 22:16:19 <_death> Harag: you should have a fully-qualified widget name, if you use it in string form 22:17:33 _death: package:widget ? 22:17:33 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:17:58 <_death> yep.. or some other separator if that isn't allowed 22:18:25 -!- slashus2 [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:47 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student167-200.hampshire.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:19:41 ..how would using a symbol free me of that? sorry what is obvious to you guys is sometimes difficult for me to see ...I have a lifetime of programming in microsoft languages to unlearn 22:19:41 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:19:54 was there a discussion here about mudballs and the new support for asdf systems? I'd still love mbd as a distribution system. 22:20:30 -!- dls [n=dls@adsl-63-199-242-27.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net] has quit [] 22:21:26 Harag: In Lisp, you use symbols to identify things. 22:21:31 <_death> Harag: when you pass a symbol, you can easily construct a fully-qualified name.. you don't risk losing data about it (another loss of data: the downcasing you do) 22:21:47 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F226.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:21:48 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:22:38 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 22:22:57 i downcase to get the parameter ...i think parameter is case sensitive 22:24:23 hrm, setf'ing symbol-function in an eval-when :compile-toplevel doesn't make the undefined function warnings go away on sbcl? 22:24:28 -death: so you are syaing that if a symbol is passes into a function the function internaly can find package information etc of the sybol and thus fudge a unique identifier? 22:24:52 <_death> yes 22:25:27 attila_lendvai: why use symbol-function instead of fdefinition? 22:25:45 Oh man, Harag... given a symbol, you can brew beer in lisp. 22:25:48 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-143-130.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:25:56 lol 22:26:08 more mead! 22:26:17 minion: chant 22:26:17 MORE MEAD 22:27:00 sykopomp: iirc it's the same with symbol-function 22:27:04 *attila_lendvai* checks 22:27:17 There was some difference, but I forgot what it was. 22:27:21 <_death> Harag: the lisp reader is case sensitive, too 22:27:26 fdefinition makes it act like an actual #'function, though. 22:27:28 sysfault: symbol-function takes a symbol 22:27:34 sykopomp: fdefinition takes function names 22:27:53 _death: does symbols not get ucased when interned? 22:28:33 <_death> clhs *readtable-case* 22:28:33 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for *readtable-case*. 22:28:34 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:28:39 <_death> clhs readtable-case 22:28:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rdtabl.htm 22:29:03 <_death> Harag: also try '|Hello| 22:29:15 tcr: they both take symbols 22:29:36 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 22:29:37 (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (lambda () (print "foo"))) -- (foo) 22:30:23 -death: eish '|Hello| makes not pretty code... 22:30:42 sykopomp: Of course they do. That's what I said. 22:31:04 ah 22:31:15 <_death> sykopomp: function names aren't necessarily symbols 22:31:37 ah 22:31:39 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 22:31:56 _death: what can function names be if not symbols, though? 22:32:18 <_death> (setf foo) 22:32:19 sykopomp: (setf foo) 22:32:20 doh! 22:32:28 <_death> ;) 22:32:35 Also, depending on your point of view, a lambda expression can be considered a function name. 22:32:49 Though, I think, not according to the CLHS glossary. 22:33:35 gigamonkey: You're thinking of the exception granted for using a lambda expression as the first element of a compound form? 22:33:40 oh. of course :) 22:33:48 -!- jao [i=jao@dhcp-18-190-9-87.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:59 nyef: Or inside FUNCTION 22:34:02 That and as a thing that you use in CL:FUNCTION 22:34:07 doh again!! 22:34:07 Ah, right. 22:34:21 getting old? 22:34:31 apparently. 22:34:37 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:24 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-231-73.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:20 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 22:37:25 theoffset [n=ismael@132.254.52.63] has joined #lisp 22:38:04 td123 [n=tom@c-76-16-162-211.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:04 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:39:08 -!- td123 [n=tom@c-76-16-162-211.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:41:14 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:27 td123 [n=tom@c-76-16-162-211.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:39 -!- td123 [n=tom@c-76-16-162-211.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:42:42 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:17 -!- ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-126-11.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:24 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:44:47 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:05 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-95-182.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:47:21 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:47:58 -!- newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has left #lisp 22:51:16 what's the easiest way to tell SBCL to shut up during compilation and not print any output besides what the programme requests? 22:51:44 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-7651491ae2729af0] has joined #lisp 22:52:15 *nyef* gets the feeling that at least some of PCL's use of a code-walker is because of its "portable" heritage, and that some of what it does with the walker could be done in terms of IR1 instead. 22:53:09 <_death> mathrick: the manual has a section on controlling verbosity 22:54:05 xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:05 mathrick: maybe --noinform and/or --noprint? 22:54:24 those don't do anything to the compiler, I tried 22:54:29 I wonder if subtypep not working for classes during compile time is a bug. 22:54:39 _death: yeah, except ASDF is still spewing out its output :\ 22:54:43 rswarbrick [n=user@cpc1-cove3-0-0-cust907.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:14 deepfire: For classes defined in the same file or for classes defined in other files? 22:55:24 grumble 22:55:27 stupid ASDF 22:55:51 (asdf... :verbose nil) ? 22:56:11 <_death> clhs *compile-print* 22:56:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_cmp_pr.htm 22:56:21 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF09A90.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:56:40 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 22:56:50 night people and thanx again for all the advice and help 22:56:59 _deepfire pasted "SUBTYPEP vs. defclass/:compile-toplevel" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77544 22:57:09 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:20 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:57:39 -!- hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has quit ["leaving"] 22:57:40 mjf [n=mjf@r6y236.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 22:57:58 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 22:58:08 er, a slight misnomer, should be "subtypep/compile-toplevel vs. defclass" 22:58:13 _deepfire: I'd suggest that it is explicitly not a bug, per CLHS defclass. 22:58:29 Last paragraph in the description. 22:59:13 "the compiler must make the class name be recognized as a valid type name" 22:59:26 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCF692.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:42 (Required to be a valid type name for declarations, to be a valid class name for specialization and :metaclass, and available to find-class. Nothing about being valid in any other context, such as subtypep.) 22:59:48 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:01 Ah, yes. 23:00:08 nyef: right, unsigned. 23:00:38 pkhuong: Let me know if it works? It's almost certainly wrong in a couple ways, but should be a good start. 23:01:05 And its being wrong shouldn't be a problem with so few use-cases. 23:01:33 My reading comprehension is a bit weak, admittedly. 23:02:11 One thing I'm surprised about is that some of the instruction format definitions are 40 bits long. I distinctly recall reading a comment about a 32-bit limit, though if it were truly a machine-word limit that'd be comprehensible in context. 23:03:05 So, to do useful class type computation during compile time I must put the superclass and subclasses into different compilation units. 23:03:12 k. I'll try another build in a couple hours/tonight. 23:03:20 Or eval-when :c-t the super. 23:03:22 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-133-68.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:03:23 Fair enough. 23:03:33 deepfire: Sounds about right. 23:04:00 deepfire: Or, rather, eval-when :c-t the defclass forms. 23:04:22 nyef, that's what I meant, yes. 23:04:26 Putting the super and subclass defclasses in different files is unlikely to help. 23:06:22 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:06:35 nyef, why? 23:07:46 Right, shifting both super and subs into :c-t helped. 23:07:52 Because you want both of them to have been fully defined when you do your subtypep, which is a completely separate issue from which compilation unit they're in. 23:08:05 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:08:19 (Well, mostly separate, given the usual compile-and-then-load operation for builds.) 23:09:13 jfactor [n=jfactor@student167-200.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 23:11:31 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:54 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl11-123-88.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:12:37 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:13 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-10.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 23:16:26 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@y192004.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:02 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. 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