00:03:29 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.162] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:05:17 I just found space where I can keep the sbcl build archive for a while longer (should be enough for a year until I have to start swapping out this disk, which may by then be prudent anyway). boinkmarks will resume in a day or two. 00:07:33 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 00:08:27 aggieben__ [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:32 -!- cyfex [n=cyfex@unaffiliated/cyfex] has quit ["leaving"] 00:08:48 Is there a relative of THE that signals an error rather than having undefined consequences if the value does not match the type? 00:09:10 jcowan: check-type 00:09:28 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@189.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 00:10:44 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:11:00 That requires that the value being checked be in some _place_. 00:11:25 I want somthing like (ASSURE type arbitrary-value) 00:12:55 (assert (typep arbitrary-value type)) 00:13:19 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:28 Fair enough. Thanks. 00:14:51 (declaim (inline check-the)) (defun check-the (value type) (assert (typep value type))) 00:15:01 er, (declaim (inline check-the)) (defun check-the (value type) (assert (typep value type)) value) 00:16:12 note that (assert (typep x 'y)) is basically an incomplete version of (check-type x y), though. (the more complete one would be (assert (typep x 'y) (x) 'type-error ...)) 00:17:24 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 00:17:26 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:03 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 00:21:07 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:23:25 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:57 -!- aggieben_ [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:06 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:33:14 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 00:33:30 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host53-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 00:33:38 How to find out the most/least positive/negative float, given that we don't know if float is short, single, double, or long? 00:35:17 you mean most-negative-[short/single/double/long]-float? 00:37:15 jcowan: is that a CL programming question or a how-to-investigate-floating-point-behavior question? 00:37:25 No, it's an I-am-confused question. 00:37:33 Okay, what do you mean by "float"? 00:37:36 I now see that float is the supertype of the four kinds of floats. 00:37:39 You have a float of some unspecified type? 00:37:41 Ah. 00:38:01 Note also that not all four float varieties need be distinct. 00:38:02 As opposed to "a type equivalent to one of the four kinds, but we don't know which." 00:38:22 like int in C, which could be int16, int32, or int64 00:38:29 (or int107 for that matter) 00:38:47 well, float is real also 00:39:00 and a number 00:39:09 I'm disappointed that it wasn't the programming question, because then I could present a horrible kludge involving FIND-SYMBOL. 00:39:25 well, tell me about your horrible kludge, then 00:40:04 xuanwu pasted "nb" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77438 00:40:44 (defun most-positive-float (type) (when (eq (symbol-package type) (find-package :cl)) (find-symbol (format "MOST-POSITIVE-~A" type) :cl))) 00:40:52 xuanwu annotated #77438 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77438#1 00:41:27 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B6EE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:41:55 Clever and horrible. 00:42:49 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:03 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:43:04 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 00:43:08 kpreid: and incorrect : (format "~A-~A" 'most-positive-float type) will work with other reader settings :) 00:43:22 oh, wait 00:43:25 it's in CL :) 00:43:27 So we can portably determine which float types are the same using 0.0S0, etc. etc. and EQL? 00:43:28 never mind me 00:43:49 jcowan: subtypep is more direct 00:44:21 and (format nil ... too 00:44:25 drewc: I'm not entirely against compatibility with "modern mode" ... 00:44:36 stassats: sheesh, yes, I haven't written CL in too long... 00:45:50 why not a just generic function that you specialize on each float type? 00:45:53 kpreid: it doesn't matter, symbols in CL have uppercase SYMBOL-NAMEs regardless of reader settings. It would matter if the package was anything but :CL though. 00:45:55 Ah, because (subtypep 'foo 'foo) is true? 00:46:03 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:47:03 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-109-162.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:47:06 jcowan: yes 00:47:12 so you can write type-equal-p 00:47:17 Actually I do want to use your horrible hack, because what it turns out I really want is to be able to figure out what most/least-positive/negative-*read-default-float-format*-float is. 00:47:23 -!- futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:47:35 or, since they are either equal or disjoint, (subtypep 'short-float 'single-float) suffices 00:47:59 *jcowan* notes that clisp claims to have all four distinct. 00:48:27 clisp also lets you change the width of long-floats iirc 00:49:04 joshe: because you can't do that portably 00:49:21 joshe: see 4.3.7 (i think) 00:49:33 clhs 4.3.7 00:49:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_cg.htm 00:49:55 oh 00:50:10 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:50:34 I've never actually tried to do something like that, I just assumed it would work 00:51:28 joshe: not all built in types have a 1 to one mapping with classes. 00:51:58 (in ANSI anyway, SBCL and many other lisps can/do have those system classes) 00:52:06 In particular, simple-vector is not a class, which is irritating. 00:52:17 so I see, nice to know 00:52:23 cl-xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:03 Hi I've a question about eval and intern 00:53:05 jcowan: dispatch is but a typecase away :) 00:53:15 (eval (list (intern "floor") 5 3)) 00:53:44 jonathon [n=user@c-69-242-62-236.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:44 why would it give "undefined function error" but (eval (list (intern "+") 5 3)) is fine? 00:53:51 try "FLOOR" 00:54:12 oh my! it works! 00:54:23 and since it is already interned, find-symbol instead of intern 00:54:24 I thought it doesn't matter 00:54:29 I've been searching the hyperspec, but I can't seem to find a function (or method) that will return a list of all slot names of a class or object. Any ideas? 00:55:03 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087E76C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:17 jonathon: (mapcar #'mop:slot-definition-name (mop:class-slots class)) 00:55:31 Ah, the MOP package. That's what I was missing... 00:55:33 Thanks! 00:55:36 you mean find-symbol is more proper than intern? 00:55:37 jonathon: you cannot do so using just ANSI CL 00:55:43 so you require MOP 00:55:46 cl-xuanwu: in that case, yes 00:55:49 Ah. 00:56:09 stassats thanks for the tip! 00:56:18 benny` [n=benny@i577A09B8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:56:21 jonathon: the other option is a macro that wraps defclass, but MOP is, imo, the right way to do it, and ANSI be damned. 00:56:43 Hmm. 00:56:45 find-symbol doesn't intern symbol if it can't find one 00:56:54 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:56:57 That's a separate package right? 00:57:14 cl-xuanwu: another trick would be to do something like (intern (symbol-name 'symbol)), which will respect readtable-case 00:57:26 jonathon: use closer-mop 00:57:30 minion: closer? 00:57:31 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``closer''. 00:57:37 minion: closer-mop? 00:57:38 closer-mop: Closer to MOP is a compatibility layer that rectifies many of the absent or incorrect MOP features as detected by MOP Feature Tests. http://www.cliki.net/closer-mop 00:57:40 oh i see. I actually have the list of all existing symbols, so it's not a big problem for me here. 00:57:42 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 00:58:49 drewc I have a list of strings of symbols, so I thought I'd use intern 00:59:35 well, if you want to call an already function, its name is already interned 00:59:45 drewc: I just got 'Let Over Lambda' and I'm revisiting some code I wrote before. I found a much better way to convert objects to xml, but I needed to introspect the objects to do it. 01:00:04 cl-xuanwu: the problem is that, unless you know where/how those symbols were interned, you cannot reliable guess the case of the symbol-name, and therefor might be interning a completely different symbol. 01:00:55 jonathon: i cannot recommend that back, and do in fact recommend against it as educational material. 01:01:00 that book* 01:01:24 crink [n=crink@210.110.159.199] has joined #lisp 01:01:51 Really? Why so? 01:02:38 jonathon: the author is inexperienced in CL, and it shows. 01:03:09 Hmm. He seems to really know his stuff. But he also says he's going beyond acceptable programming concepts. 01:03:35 I just want to break through to the next level of macro programming, and while PCL was a good start, I need to 'think different' to get there. 01:03:49 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:03:55 jonathon: the next level of macro programming is knowing when to avoid them. 01:04:20 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:24 that's easy: always when possible 01:04:42 well, reasonably possible 01:04:44 stassats: of course :) 01:05:44 Of course, his argument is that precept isn't always valid. Why avoid them if they can make some code more concise and abstracted at a higher level, without undue side effects? Otherwise, I might as well use a lesser language. 01:05:56 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-66-212.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:11 jonathon: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6kc4p/new_book_about_common_lisp_let_over_lambda/ has some discussion. 01:06:24 I'll check it out... 01:07:47 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0809.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:08:04 jonathon: macros are the final tiny layer on top of a well thought out functional protocol. Most of the time, you should find you don't need a macro. Just because lisp allows you to make a silly little language whenever you want doesn't mean it's good practice. 01:08:10 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-12-99.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:08:11 lisp gives you a lot of freedom, but that doesn't mean you need to man anarchy out of this 01:08:19 s/man/make/ 01:08:33 stassats: just to make sure, the function names are not case-sensitive unless it's used in such functions as find-symbol or intern? 01:08:54 cl-xuanwu: functions are named by symbols, and symbol names are always case sensitive 01:09:20 cl-xuanwu: you need to understand the the reader upcases symbol names by default, but this is only a default setting. 01:10:03 cl-xuanwu: (eq (intern "foo") (intern "FOO")) => nil 01:10:13 Oh. That's clearer. thanks. 01:10:22 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:10:45 or (eq '|foo| 'foo) => nil 01:10:55 || prevents upcase 01:10:57 stassats: no, not always :) 01:11:29 drewc: w-s-i-s 01:11:44 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 01:11:51 -!- saikat [n=saikat@r253170217.resnet.cornell.edu] has quit [] 01:12:03 Is there a portable way to determine if characters are available on a stream, a sort of PEEK-CHAR-NO-HANG? 01:12:24 anyway, (eq '|foo| '|FOO|) => nil 01:12:28 clhs listen 01:12:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_listen.htm 01:13:06 if only there was not only LISTEN but also TELL-ME-WHEN-YOU-HEAR-SOMETHING... 01:13:11 Ah, thanks. So listen followed by peek-char if successful. 01:13:22 clhs read-char-no-hang 01:13:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_c_1.htm 01:13:29 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["leaving"] 01:13:32 confused...what's the diff between '|foo| and 'foo? 01:13:38 jcowan: you could also r-c-n-h followed by unread-char. 01:14:23 cl-xuanwu: compare their SYMBOL-NAMEs 01:16:02 kpreid: IOlib has tell-me-when-you-hear-something :) 01:16:30 drewc: well, yes. but life would be so much easier if it were built onto cl streams... 01:16:34 s/onto/into/ 01:17:43 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:17:49 stassats: now ic "|| prevents upcase" 01:17:58 hi i have compiled melt from gcc. how do you think? http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/MiddleEndLispTranslator 01:18:20 cl-xuanwu: in general, it prevents anything 01:18:27 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:29 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:19:36 not nuclear war, but modifications of symbol names 01:19:44 not installed melt to my computer, thinking to install it or not. 01:20:29 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:20:40 cl-xuanwu: try something like : 01:20:43 _death [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 01:20:46 stassats: hehe. so basically it will accept the symbol as the input. 01:20:52 (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable))) (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :downcase) 01:20:52 (read-from-string "'(foo FOO foO |foo| |FOO| |fo0|)")) 01:21:02 gah, sorry 'bout the extra newline 01:22:35 or for even more confusion (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable)) (*print-case* :upcase)) (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :downcase) (print (read-from-string "'(foo FOO foO |foo| |FOO| |fo0|)"))) 01:23:32 (*print-case* :capitalize) is more funny 01:24:24 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:24:25 stassats: my personal favorite : 01:24:28 (let ((*read-base* 36)) (read-from-string "'(NIL |NIL| ())") 01:24:35 ok. Now I really need to look into the options... 01:24:55 cl-xuanwu: try that last on on for size, it should tell you what || does :D 01:25:40 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 01:25:50 I tried (let ((*read-base* 36)) (read-from-string "'(NIL |NIL| ())") 01:26:03 and clisp stucks 01:26:06 and one extra parenthesis 01:26:26 clisp eagerly waits for it 01:26:39 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 01:27:24 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:30 cl-xuanwu: sorry bout that, copypasta error, unbalanced parens :) 01:27:33 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-109-162.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:43 it's not the first time...I'll get used to all the parenthesis 01:29:18 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has left #lisp 01:29:24 just use the editor which does it for you 01:29:43 i.e. emacs and slime 01:30:22 yeah, exactly.. always insert balanced parens and make sure they highlight. 01:30:36 without emacs, i'd have to think about these things :) 01:30:45 oh...sorry I'm using windows. 01:30:54 newbie still 01:31:04 cl-xuanwu: and? emacs + slime work quite well on windows. 01:31:47 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["G'night!"] 01:31:59 ok...googling now. 01:32:19 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:33:07 (let ((*read-base* 36)) (read-from-string "'(NIL |NIL| ())")) 01:33:16 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 01:33:21 oops wrong window :) 01:34:09 saikat [n=saikat@r253170217.resnet.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 01:34:26 jlf`: i often confuse the ERC> prompt with a slime prompt, even though i know there is no ERC package in my image :) 01:34:49 setting someone's *read-base* would be a cruel joke 01:37:56 -!- jonathon [n=user@c-69-242-62-236.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:13 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:12 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 01:42:27 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:24 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:48:53 KalifG [n=user@166.128.162.151] has joined #lisp 01:48:55 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:49:06 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:49:56 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@216.80.120.149] has joined #lisp 01:51:46 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-96-241.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:52:45 I've got some idea which I thought would be most appropriate to implement in lisp but not so sure. A program that try to evaluate some created forms from a set of vocabulary and learn from the returned error message or luckily enough some return value to figure out some relations between the form and returned things. I'm not sure what it'll do but it sounds fun. 01:53:02 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:53:31 also the error handling in lisp seems flexible enough 01:54:24 if I want a program trying evaluating all kinds of forms and still not crash 01:55:17 cl-xuanwu: CL does not generally have guarantees that providing random junk will be harmless, though 01:55:53 like...? 01:55:57 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@216.80.120.149] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:56:08 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:13 cl-xuanwu: (car (the cons 1)). 01:57:05 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 01:57:20 well is it possible to capture all the error message and just ignore the error? 01:58:02 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:58:42 (handler-case (eval (read-from-string "(/ 0)")) (error (error) error)) 01:59:29 thanks stassats. 01:59:40 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:55 I've checked I can get the actual error message from "error" 02:01:20 like (format nil "~A" error) 02:02:28 or princ-to-string 02:03:04 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:03:38 ah you're like lisp reference man. thanks again 02:03:51 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:56 i'm trying to persist some dynamically generated classes, and currently i'm eval'ing the stored (defclass ...) forms, but i've read many times that eval is usually the wrong approach -- is there a cleaner way to accomplish this? 02:04:09 the MOP, or not doing that. 02:05:49 minion: tell jlf` about cl-store 02:05:50 jlf`: have a look at cl-store: cl-store is an asdf-installable portable library for serializing and deserializing Common Lisp objects to and from streams. http://www.cliki.net/cl-store 02:05:59 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:06:25 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:06:42 oh wait .. what does it mean to persist classes? 02:07:24 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:07:45 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-145-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:08:15 drewc: i'm using elephant now, which will [de]serialize objects to a database, but at deserialization time it expects to have been informed of the class definitions of the objects it's retrieving. 02:08:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:08:55 -!- cl-xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:09:05 jlf`: I usually 'persist' my class defintions in source files with the extension .lisp... 02:09:23 xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:30 -!- ``Erik__ is now known as ``Erik 02:09:37 jlf`: what are you doing that is so different it requires EVAL on 'stored defclass forms' 02:09:47 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:10:52 drewc: i'm generating the classes dynamically 02:11:05 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:08 jlf`: using ensure-class? 02:11:41 -!- jao [i=jao@dhcp-18-190-55-103.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:11:49 -!- beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-12-99.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:33 drewc: no 02:12:37 .... 02:12:39 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B6B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:13:21 jlf`: so you generate DEFCLASS forms? 02:13:38 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:20 drewc: yes, at the moment. as i mentioned i have the feeling it's the wrong way to do it. 02:14:38 -!- knobo [n=user@148.122.202.247] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:15:32 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:52 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@87.78.184.167] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:16:08 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:16:45 jlf`: defclass forms are not classes, but rather source code, and as i mentioned i usually persist source code in .lisp files as i mentioned, but you can store it anywhere and simple compile and load them before use. 02:17:04 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:17:13 my question is, where do these defclass forms come from? 02:18:24 and why do you need classes at all.. do you then define a bunch of methods that specialize on the newly generated classes? 02:18:45 knobo [n=user@148.122.202.247] has joined #lisp 02:19:07 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 02:19:12 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:25 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:51 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:21:19 -!- sulo [n=sulo@p57B49768.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:21:20 stassats: have you heard of some projects about analysis of runtime error message in cl? 02:21:31 drewc: i'm working toward a webapp where users can specify data structures, which i'll represent as classes whose slots are the elements of those data structures, and operations on those data structures, which will be transformed into methods specialized on those classes. 02:22:36 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:15 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 02:24:34 so the problem i'm trying to solve is how to generate this on the machine hosting the webapp and make it available to another lisp process on a remote server 02:25:45 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:29 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:28:25 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:28:29 jlf`: ah ok, that makes a little more sense to me. you can avoid EVALing defclass forms using MOP:ENSURE-CLASS, and there are other MOP functions for generic functions and methods. 02:28:33 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:29:18 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 02:29:36 i'm still not convinced that CLOS is the best solution here, but if your data structures are all essentially instances of CLOS classes and you need the features that CLOS offers, then go MOP, that's what it's for. 02:30:14 (and i'm a CLOS fanatic, not one of these 'roll-your-own' types) 02:30:51 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:57 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 02:31:08 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:32:03 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:34:17 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:34:56 You should not use dynamically created classes to represent Xes if Xes can go away...since classes are not garbage collected (since there are references to subclass) 02:35:09 (at least, no CL implementation I've heard of makes those references weak) 02:35:16 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:35:27 kpreid: the MOP makes it hard to have weak references there. 02:36:46 does it? 02:37:02 couldn't you keep the references as weak and only cons lists when the client asks? 02:37:20 lists of strong refs, I mean 02:38:17 kpreid: are the consequences of side-effects to the list of, e.g., superclasses specified? 02:39:11 -!- xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:39:27 drewc: thanks for the suggestion. i'll look into those MOP functions. 02:40:05 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:05 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@222-152-89-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:40:07 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@222-152-89-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:42:32 mop class-direct-subclasses 02:42:38 specbot: help 02:42:39 To use the specbot bot, say something like "database term", where database is one of ("clhs", "r5rs", "cocoa", "elisp", "clim", "ieee754", "ppc", "posix", "man", "cltl2", "cltl2-section") and term is the desired lookup. The available databases are: 02:42:39 "clhs", The Common Lisp HyperSpec; "r5rs", The Revised 5th Ed. Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme; "cocoa", Classes in the Cocoa Foundation and Application kits; "elisp", GNU Emacs Lisp Reference Manual 02:42:39 "clim", Common Lisp Interface Manager II Specification; "ieee754", Section numbers of IEEE 754; "ppc", PowerPC assembly mnemonics; "posix", Single UNIX Specification 02:42:53 I never remember that it's clim, not mop, that is indexed 02:43:06 l1sp ;) 02:44:35 it doesn't say about consequences 02:44:51 it *does* specify gfs for adding and removing direct subclasses from the list 02:45:07 mm. Sounds like a good idea. It might not be enough on SBCL, though, with the infodb and all. 02:45:20 and that you can override c-d-s, a-d-s, and r-d-s all together but not independently 02:45:25 yes. DEATH TO INFODB 02:45:53 ahem. anyway, I think the only way it would fail is if a program *depended* on those refs being strong... 02:46:07 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:46:29 but that would be, er, quite peculiar, since you'd ordinarily want to index those subclasses by some other criterion 02:46:38 The ref to subclasses? That'd be peculiar indeed. 02:49:28 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 02:49:29 it's not just direct subclasses, I think -- don't gfs also refer to classes by way of their methods? 02:49:42 yes 02:49:50 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@219-89-62-179.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:50:06 so you'd need to make the reference from gfs to their methods AND-weak on their specializers 02:50:08 and vice-versa :) 02:50:23 (confused yet?) 02:50:32 given specializer-direct-methods 02:50:49 that ref is not in a problematic direction, though. 02:50:57 unless you want to GC generic functions :) 02:51:02 well... another kind of simple-vector wouldn't be anything new. 02:51:03 he might 02:51:14 eh, just make it all weak 02:51:28 it could probably all be weak. 02:51:41 i'm thinking of doing a CLOS implementation, and i might just try that. 02:51:48 btw... 02:51:58 yes, it's not like having hundreds of thousands of weak references running around could be a performance problem 02:52:18 jsnell: that's the gc implementors' problem 02:52:35 kpreid: it's also hard. 02:52:37 I *already* have a system design with gobs of weak refs...in theory 02:52:48 pkhuong: yeah, and so is writing good compilers 02:52:56 *kpreid* is being glib 02:54:01 I always forget that weak refs are a pain; it might be because I almost never use them directly. 02:54:30 daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #lisp 02:54:48 Jacob__ [n=yong@61.181.247.170] has joined #lisp 02:55:10 at least the sbcl gc is no longer O(n^2) to the number of weak references ;-) 02:55:26 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:56:01 how do I define my own square root procedure? 02:56:08 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:13 jsnell: well, leaving hundreds of thousands of non-gc'd yet not-used classes around can't be all that great for memory use :) 02:56:24 jsnell: right. That was weak. 02:56:30 haha 02:56:38 I know there is (sqrt n) 02:56:40 drewc: the common case is rather contrary, though. 02:57:04 just wondered if you could do your own 02:57:22 sure, what part of defining such a function is causing you problems? 02:57:57 daedra: typically, you ask the CPU, which usually does some table-based interpolation and/or newton. 02:58:57 It's somewhat interesting to implement that from scratch. 02:59:33 daedra: sicp discusses an implementation using newton's method 02:59:46 pkhuong: One could make the weakness a property of a metaclass, and please everybody. 03:00:11 no, you couldn't 03:00:13 damnit 03:00:43 jlf`: cool I'll look it up 03:01:47 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:02:06 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:02:07 *kpreid* learns of the existence of ISQRT 03:02:08 daedra: exercise 1.6, I believe. 03:02:59 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:03 I wonder whether there are any cl implementations which return integer results from SQRT 03:04:02 things i love about lisp: M-. down to your implementations SQRT only to find it's basically (defun sqrt (n) (sqrt n)) 03:04:04 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:40 kpreid: Do you mean truncate or only return the square roots if they are integers? 03:04:56 Maybe round. 03:04:59 tmh: I mean return an integer iff the input is a perfect square 03:04:59 kpreid: There must have been at some point, since I remember that's one of the things baker mentions as being particularly hairy in CL in the nimble 84 paper. 03:05:14 kpreid: Ah, okay. 03:05:16 drewc: pfft, a *real* system would show you the actual implementation of sqrt 03:05:21 :-) 03:05:56 -!- saikat [n=saikat@r253170217.resnet.cornell.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:03 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:08:07 sulo__ 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["Lost terminal"] 03:34:42 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:43:17 rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@209-204-163-4.vpn.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:37 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:57 aha, all the Lispers are abed at ILC after an evening of booze 03:46:14 borism_ [n=boris@195.50.200.199] has joined #lisp 03:50:32 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-224-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:53:47 rich_holygoat: lies, I'm still awake and sitting in the Scala Center :) 03:54:08 good lord, do they have a bar? 03:54:16 on the other hand, I'm not legal for alcohol and I only got here at 22:00, so that could affect the situation 03:54:42 ah, fair enough 03:54:45 nah; this place is pretty dead at the moment 03:54:52 still, that's early enough to score a great seat for the morning 03:55:01 janitors, security guards, and me 03:55:06 heh 03:55:21 Scala Center? 03:55:23 *Riastradh* coughs. 03:55:50 oh. 03:56:12 always do that with the name, heh 03:56:25 don't worry, something I have to consciously resist, too 03:56:27 s/Scala/Stata/ :) 04:03:07 -!- _dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:03:13 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:05:10 -!- crink [n=crink@210.110.159.199] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:05:31 ayrnieu_ [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:48 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:11:47 -!- beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-126-173.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:11:55 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-7-252.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:12:23 -!- Jacob__ [n=yong@61.181.247.170] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:12:46 spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.10.175] has joined #lisp 04:13:16 sulo_ [n=sulo@87.180.176.105] has joined #lisp 04:14:14 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151257.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 04:15:40 hey, supposing i have a list of lists => ((1 2 3) (2 3 4) (3 4 5)), how do i get => (6 9 12) ? ie. sum of members of individual lists? 04:15:40 (mapcar #'+ '(1 2 3) '(2 3 4) '(3 4 5)) gives me (6 9 12) which is not exactly what i want 04:15:58 oops ;) 04:16:10 Uh, you want (6 9 12), not (6 9 12)? 04:16:13 wrong example 04:16:25 the solution is misleading 04:16:37 anyways, what i want is sum of members of individual lists 04:16:48 not sum of i'th elements of all lists 04:17:01 '((1 2 3) '(2 3 4) '(3 4 5)) 04:17:06 spradnyesh2: how do you find the sum of a list of numbers? 04:17:48 You are passing three lists in parallel -- you want to pass one list of triples. 04:17:49 -!- mmondor [n=mmondor@216.239.83.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:17:56 (funcall #'+ 1 2 3) 04:18:13 (mapcar (lambda (list) (reduce (function +) list)) (list '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6) '(7 8 9))) 04:18:55 pjb`: that helps, thanks 04:19:03 although i'll need some time to digest it 04:19:09 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:19:13 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:19:55 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:21:53 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B069.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:22:57 holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:25 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:24:33 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:30:31 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:33:22 Jacob_ [n=yong@61.181.247.170] has joined #lisp 04:33:50 -!- Jacob_ is now known as Guest23353 04:35:02 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined 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beach```` is now known as beach 04:56:02 Good morning. 04:56:08 morning, beach 04:56:12 good night. 05:00:03 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-78-217.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:00:52 -!- jsoft__ [n=Administ@118-93-32-246.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:07:25 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:07:38 -!- frank_s [n=frank@41.145.42.12] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:08:45 xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:49 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:11:07 prabuinet [n=prabuine@122.165.28.253] has joined #lisp 05:12:14 xuanwu_ [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:54 -!- spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.10.175] has left #lisp 05:16:39 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250009.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:33 videos of ILC2009 available somewhere??? 05:18:10 Kenjin 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07:40:19 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:43:00 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:43:53 fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:40 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has joined #lisp 07:49:00 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:49:26 -!- jenkins [n=jenkins@ixa150.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [] 07:49:54 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 07:51:35 Hello 07:53:01 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-013-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:53:15 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:48 hello MrSpec 07:58:10 Hey beach 07:58:34 good morning 07:58:53 morning mvilleneuve 07:59:35 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E209.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:02:27 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:02:43 nostoi [n=nostoi@248.Red-81-39-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:21 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:05:56 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@69-12-147-167.dsl.static.sonic.net] has left #lisp 08:07:28 g'day 08:07:59 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:55 It looks like it is going to be another sunny day. 08:08:57 Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 08:09:34 a bit cloudy really :) 08:09:42 But indeed sunshine comes from the inside! 08:10:01 How poetic of you. 08:10:56 Ya. monday = poetday (: 08:12:22 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@248.Red-81-39-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:12:42 Though the weekend was a bit of a failure. I was to do some work on climacs, but my router turned up dead on me so I couldn't ssh over to the machine with the lisp on. 08:12:45 !! 08:13:06 new week - new potency ? :) 08:13:32 new week - new router. This time running openwrt so things should work ;) 08:15:46 hehe 08:16:45 Sadly not enough ram on it to run sbcl ;) 08:17:45 sad :S 08:18:29 have to go BBL 08:18:35 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 08:19:58 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 08:24:47 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:24:56 are there any lisps out there with threading support on windows?... 08:25:06 (as well as osx and linux) 08:25:11 sykopomp: I think maybe clisp 08:25:40 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["brb"] 08:26:47 no threads in clisp :< 08:26:57 I'm sure there are. 08:27:08 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 08:27:10 I built one just last week with the threads enabled :) 08:27:24 huh? 08:27:38 I'm talking about GNU CLISP, not common lisp in general... 08:27:42 Yes, me too. 08:27:47 oh okay 08:27:48 hm 08:27:48 isn 08:27:54 isn't Corman? 08:28:46 ./configure --with-threads=posix_threads --with-jitc=lightning 08:28:55 also it has win32_threads and solaris_threads 08:29:21 oh neat. 08:29:26 thanks :) 08:29:44 sykopomp: Also it says [highly experimental - use at your own risk] ;) 08:29:49 heh :< 08:30:04 well, there go my hopes of having a fully multiplatform thing up and running. 08:30:13 I have not had it crash on me, but I really didn't play with it so very much. 08:30:18 ah yes. 08:30:23 I know *that* feeling :) 08:30:49 app was going great, compiling on everything, really simple setup and everything 08:31:10 until I figure "Hm, I need to make this little part threaded.." 08:31:12 poof 08:31:12 :< 08:31:15 ouch :( 08:31:19 no way to work around the threads? 08:31:48 I don't know how I would. 08:32:39 hm... actually 08:32:41 perhaps I can 08:32:45 slashus2 [n=dex@74-141-105-89.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:18 great. 08:33:27 now just add a mcclim gui too, and you're re-fucked :) 08:33:58 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:34:03 hahaha 08:34:52 actually, I had a short brain lapse. I forgot you can let lispbuilder-sdl's game loop run full-speed if you want. 08:36:48 aaargh 08:37:02 I was trying lispbuilder-sdl yesterday. It seems broken :) 08:37:26 I haven't been able to get sound to work, but the default package and image work more than well enough to use. 08:37:51 http://omploader.org/vMWY2aQ <-- this is what I've got so far, after only a couple of days (and never having touched this graphics stuff before...) 08:38:15 kaboom++ 08:38:25 sykopomp: I can't even get it up and running. 08:38:51 tells me there is no LISPBUILDER-SDL::INITIALIZE-ON-STARTUP 08:39:17 freelab [n=freelab@58.61.223.77] has joined #lisp 08:39:38 schme: that's really strange. I've had no problem at all. I've even gotten a few people to download the latest source for my code, and a simple image-building script always just works(tm) 08:40:03 cools :) 08:40:16 I grepped the source tree and there is no such function, yet mentioned in the docs. 08:40:19 *schme* shrugs 08:40:38 oh yeah, there's some stuff that's seriously outdated 08:41:45 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@78.36.165.241] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 08:41:51 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:44:25 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:44:47 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 08:48:30 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:51:33 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 08:57:10 kept me from firing up (rlx:play "invader") (: 08:59:21 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:04:15 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 09:06:18 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl064.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 09:10:54 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.162.151] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:14:33 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:31 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:38 -!- ayrnieu_ [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:21:40 AWizzArd [n=the@splendidlord.com] has joined #lisp 09:22:20 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:22:59 Did anyone run clsql successfuly with MySQL 5.1 under Windows? 09:23:14 (Lispworks Pro) 09:23:29 it uses a network connection, so what's the problem? 09:26:31 I land in the debugger, with a Error: Exception C0000005 [flags 0] at 20E88BBE 09:26:50 with mysql 5.0 it worked without problems 09:27:08 can you manually connect without problems? 09:27:08 fph: does it? 09:27:41 you must specify a host, and you don't need to be local 09:27:41 fph: I will try a minimal connect in a fresh Lispworks, brb 09:27:56 I mean independent of lisp 09:29:24 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 09:30:31 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:32:00 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:03 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA7FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:33:24 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 09:37:31 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-133-68.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:38:55 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:39:23 fph: well, I just tried it in the repl and I got a connection and got a query result. So, the problem can most likely be found somewhere else in my code. 09:39:48 hhm, but it worked with a prior version 09:40:07 so maybe the protocol changed between mysql versions 09:40:50 ah, but the repl test rules that somewhat out 09:40:58 -!- freelab [n=freelab@58.61.223.77] has quit ["My God! Gone..."] 09:42:39 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:42:45 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:43 oh, I just tested a (clsql:query "select * from someTable") and that throws a Error: Exception C0000005 [flags 0] at 20E88BBE {Offset 12 inside #} 09:45:16 what if you list the fields instead of [*] ? 09:45:28 kiuma [n=kiuma@host75-233-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:46:46 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:49:42 uh, with specified fields it works again 09:49:46 the * seems to be the killer 09:50:00 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:50:22 I usually use select, not query, but I always box up the fields 09:50:39 you can turn on the sql sniffing to see what is being sent 09:51:14 (clsql:start-sql-recording) and (clsql:stop-sql-recording) 09:51:23 ah, good, I will try that 09:51:42 -!- CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:56:16 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:56:24 -!- frank_s [n=frank@41.145.42.12] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 09:56:33 frank_s [n=frank@41.145.42.12] has joined #lisp 09:57:15 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:57:54 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:09 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 09:58:54 CrEddy [n=agnathou@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 10:00:04 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 10:01:48 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:01:55 sreeram_ [n=sreeram@61.247.251.10] has joined #lisp 10:02:03 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.165.2.126] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:02:13 -!- sreeram_ is now known as sreeram 10:03:32 -!- vinleod [n=Vincent_@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 10:04:41 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:04:51 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA213.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:05:39 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:11:06 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B9D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:44 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 10:16:06 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has joined #lisp 10:19:38 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-5628.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:21:49 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA7FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:28:49 Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 10:34:01 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B9D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:02 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.157.0] has joined #lisp 10:41:19 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:44:28 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:15 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:45:25 Hmm, I have a Lisp talk to give Wednesday morning, and it was announced that it would be about LispOS and the "community" developing it. Now what do I do? 10:45:55 Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 10:46:20 <_3b> quick, start a community? 10:46:45 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.157.0] has quit ["(russel) girls pm me for cs (transient) OK (transient) WAIT IM A GUY"] 10:46:53 tell them about a fishing trip 10:47:14 since LispOS is nonexistant 10:48:00 beach: we can crossdress as your pretend-community, and then we can write a movie about it. 10:48:06 and produce said movie 10:48:11 fph: hey, we have a compiler. eventually, someone will write the rest, then we'll claim that it is ours because we wrote the compiler and call it "LispOS/whatever". and insist on everyone else do the same! 10:48:18 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-222.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 10:48:19 fph: That's not *quite* true. 10:48:28 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 10:48:28 ah, then you have a talk 10:48:55 beach, you are the community ? :D 10:49:00 -!- spec[afk] is now known as mrSpec 10:49:38 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:49:44 call Frode Vatvedt Fjeld ? 10:49:45 Well, these are students, so they first need to know something about current OS semantics and why and how it can be improved. That will take a while. 10:49:57 or mail .. or whatever 10:50:13 lnostdal: And have him give the talk in my place? 10:50:28 hmm, *shrug* 10:50:39 Then they need to know why a dynamic and interactive language is a good model for an OS. 10:52:18 lol, I finally noticed and got that joke H4ns 10:52:29 They also need to know more Lisp, because they have only been taught a subset (functional programming) of it. 10:52:45 -!- CrEddy [n=agnathou@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:52:57 fph: you are very slow today. 10:53:09 no, reading something else 10:53:12 beach: I find it helpful to think of the one or two take-home messages I want the audience to go away with. Maybe "the space of OSes is larger than the current commercially-successful ones", "static OS environments are optimised for a particular use case which isn't universal"? 10:53:54 Xof: Yes, I ad something very similar to that in mind. 10:54:01 *had 10:55:08 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-13-156.twcny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 10:56:10 Perhaps I can show one of the Genera videos. That will take some time. 10:56:48 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@ptio.kim-minh.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:56:48 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@host75-233-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:56:48 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:56:48 -!- sepisultrum [n=enigma@ks35219.kimsufi.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:56:48 -!- pierre__thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:56:48 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:56:48 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:56:48 -!- nullman [n=nullman@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:56:48 -!- aking [n=aking@207.210.78.49] has quit [verne.freenode.net 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[n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-39-132.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 11:10:20 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:13:32 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:09 it's nice that mega1 and jsnell are doing all sorts of neat patch hoovering and issue checking 11:14:17 I wonder if sbcl should freeze for the month 11:14:37 I'd like to commit one more thing before that 11:14:56 I have at least one outstanding issue to deal with that I'd like to get in 11:15:44 of course that depends on me actually working out what the problem is 11:15:59 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250021.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:17:10 and this leak reported as "string object garbage ..." 11:17:15 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483CAC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:49 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:18:07 there's the handler-bind-stack-eating thing too 11:19:13 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:31 c|mell [n=cmell@x250003.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:19:44 yes, but there is no test case for that 11:20:43 even for current environments, current OSes leave something to be desired 11:21:15 bbe [n=bbe@221.226.129.207] has joined #lisp 11:21:29 I think the only thing I've ever heard of that was of interest was a version tracking file system 11:21:35 for example: the unix multi-user system - who uses it? nobody, we're all ignoring it completely and installing virtualisation si that each user can have a whole machine not just a uid 11:21:43 s/si/so/ 11:21:54 umm.. 11:21:55 whoa 11:22:01 sreeram [n=sreeram@61.247.251.10] has joined #lisp 11:22:10 I've been mult-users for years 11:23:03 -!- jajcloz_ [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 11:23:05 dan_b: see also the immense pain when two different users are logged into the same desktop. Who gets the automagically mounted drive when you plug in your USB key 11:23:05 chris2 [n=chris@91.22.166.9] has joined #lisp 11:23:08 multi-user is a concept from the past. it was required so that one computer could be shared by many persons, which is not a requirement nowadays. 11:23:28 there still is the requirement to write multi-user applications, but that is something different.. 11:23:31 h4ns: er, amazon ec2 disagrees with you 11:23:37 not true, a separate user for each project works very nicely 11:23:51 i maintain my point. 11:23:54 dan_b: oh i thought ec2 was single-user ;) 11:23:57 I live mine 11:24:05 do these separate users for esach project correspond to different physical people? 11:24:10 nope 11:24:12 KalifG [n=user@166.128.162.151] has joined #lisp 11:24:27 just functional constructs 11:24:28 fph: i'd claim that you're using the multi-user concept to organize your project, not to share your machine. 11:24:36 ec2 has many people sharing tha actual hardware it runs on, I'll bet you 11:24:40 hehe, I would plead to that 11:24:50 fph: in the sense of the original concept, it is just abuse what you do :) 11:24:57 but I've seen real multi-users systems 11:25:01 the single-person computer they give you is virtualised on top of that 11:25:06 even on desktop-environments, e.g. for a family-computer, there is the requirement for multiple users 11:25:45 in fact, you usually learn of real multi-user setups because of the pieces missing in linux 11:25:55 or computers shared per-shift, let's say for a gatekeeper 11:26:11 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:26:33 daniel: these are hypothetical situations or you actually know of anyone using the unix multi-user model for this? 11:26:44 I don't even know many familes who are running unix to start with 11:26:52 Not UNIX, but Windows ;) 11:27:05 daniel: multiple persons using one machine could as well use virtual machines and be better off with that. 11:27:05 dan_b: o/ 11:27:15 H4ns: lol? 11:27:16 deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has joined #lisp 11:27:29 daniel: multi user means shared simultanous use with some sharing, which is not what you seem to be talking about. 11:27:32 it would be safer for the others H4ns 11:27:52 H4ns: yeah thats right, i was not talking about simultanous 11:28:13 Xof: indeed 11:28:27 businesses have been setup that way, sharing one computer for a cluster of desks 11:28:29 also, multi-user somewhat implies that there are non-users which would be shared together with the computer, something that we don't generally do today either. 11:29:25 fph: i'm not saying that multi-user systems are not used or useful, i'm just saying that for a new system, focusing on multi-user is pretty pointless as the unit of sharing is completely different today than it was when contemporary systems were introduced. 11:29:44 fph: indeed, we run LTSP at work. I think it was almost *weeks* before I found out how many of them were sharing passwords with each other 11:29:49 I hope beach is reading all this 11:29:55 ehe 11:30:19 I am, yes. 11:30:28 mind oyu, that could be ubuntu's fault as much as the unix it's based on 11:30:41 you need some concept of multi-user for daemons and such, and to prevent superuser dumb moves 11:30:57 fph: no, you need application isolation. 11:30:59 or process capability 11:31:17 that would fall under 'some concept' 11:31:32 "protected procedure calls" 11:31:51 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@61.247.251.10] has quit [] 11:32:10 that sounds like the dumb moves end, but daemons too ? 11:32:13 *Krystof* watches sbcl (attempt to) build 11:32:23 just like the old days 11:33:38 god, I wonder how I ever liked perl sometimes 11:33:39 my phone uses (some would say abuse) unix uids to provide application isolation, but there's no reason other than the historical to claim this is anything to do with multi-user 11:34:12 it's a tried and proven method, re-use it 11:34:12 if I lend it to my girlfriend I can't stop her from reading my texts 11:35:04 Yes, that's a little silly on the part of your phone developers. If they took that pain, they could have as well implemented and used capabilities in their kernel. After all they've got the people and knowledge to do that. 11:35:09 quick call up Nokia, a new feature for phones, "lending out" mode 11:36:00 pjb`: but typically not the time nor the probable return on investment 11:36:00 There was this feature in early gsm phones. You could limit the call-out and call-in features. 11:36:09 pjb`: didn't they lay them off when they killed pink? 11:36:39 Xof: this is discutible, Reputation for a good a secure technology that they could reuse in other products... priceless! 11:36:53 not really 11:37:04 priceless as in valueless, most probably 11:37:05 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:37:08 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:16 H4ns: no, they got them when the were bought back by NeXTcomputer Inc. 11:37:18 just look around you to get an economic estimate of the value of a secure system 11:37:27 pjb`: ah. shame on them 11:37:29 hint: no-one is buying any 11:37:33 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:37:43 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-39-132.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:37:47 no one knows they need it 11:38:02 That's why I said that it was worth a _reputation_. You need to plant the idea in customers first. 11:38:02 Or maybe no one needs it. 11:38:22 nice pink writeup: http://lowendmac.com/orchard/05/1026.html 11:38:26 kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:59 pjb`: what makes you think that the cost to plant the idea is lower than the eventual price people will pay is? 11:39:10 I have a non-existence proof that suggests that in fact the cost to plant the idea is higher 11:40:47 wingo-tp [n=wingo@18.190.39.132] has joined #lisp 11:41:19 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 11:44:05 ah, pink was their ludicrously over-ambitious OS, yep? 11:44:20 rsynnott: right 11:45:19 no-one's tried one of those for a while 11:45:32 last ones were plan9 and microsoft cairo 11:45:39 (they never work out, of course) 11:45:57 oh, was plan9 real? or just a play on the movie? 11:46:18 haha 11:46:19 plan9 is real. there are die-hard plan9 users who still use it. 11:46:25 Like IBM ;) 11:46:35 there are die hard fans of the movie too 11:46:36 fph: very real; bell labs project 11:46:41 only formally abandoned recently 11:46:48 you could say that the "multi-user" feature is just a cheap and inexact (but close enough, stable and well-understood) substitute for virtualization 11:47:08 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:47:28 plus there's the "process vs thread" dichotomy analogy, kind of 11:47:29 cmm: you could say that, but you could also say that virtualization is the follow-on technology to multi-user and replaces it. 11:48:07 H4ns: there will always be hardware on which full virtualization would be too expensive 11:48:16 cmm: like, say, in the mainframe world, where it was understood at some point that only virtualization of the hardware will lead to the desired level of isolation that secure systems require. 11:48:18 yup, I got core2 to be able to jump onto the multi-os mode 11:48:19 like low-end mobile phones :) 11:48:27 rsynnott: Is it abandoned even though IBM porting it to their blue gene? 11:48:58 Xof: http://tinyurl.com/ansimarchait ; this author explains in that book the Theorem of Avergages, which shows that indeed it's is not _monetary_ worthwhile to get outside of the average (as you said, monetary cost to do so is higher than the monetary return). But from the point of view of wealth production on the contrary you have to try to invent and distribute new products. 11:49:00 we have many multiple-person projects at work where it is an advantage that people can see each others' files: I don't think virtualization replaces multi-user systems, but it does replace one particular use case of multi-user systems 11:49:09 Also, how much RAM is needed to run sbcl again? 11:49:14 schme: well, abandoned by Bell 11:49:28 Xof: this explains the current crisis where everybody tries to increase the money it gets, but staying in the average and thus not creating any wealth. 11:49:31 H4ns: full isolation and serviceable foot-shot guarding are different goals 11:49:44 rsynnott: They actually talked about that there plan 9 spinoff on the radio.. Inferno. 11:50:10 rsynnott: Though it was on the local christian extremist radio channel, so it was a bit.. well I learnt interesting things about computers and the internet anyway ;) 11:50:11 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@host75-233-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:50:14 cmm: i'm not claiming otherwise. if building on unix, using the multi-user features to isolate applications is a viable approach. 11:50:38 yup. plus you get a fast shared filesystem for free 11:50:42 cmm: even though it has proven that the security that those features provide are insufficient. cf. chroot, jail, virtualization. 11:51:58 schme: one great advantage of living in a country where radio frequency allocations are highly restricted is that no religious groups have so far managed to get one 11:52:01 if not for tradeoffs, all currently-alive people would be driving around in Abrahams tanks 11:52:40 (: 11:52:51 elias` [n=me@194.81.254.39] has joined #lisp 11:53:11 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:53:22 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:36 -!- _dima [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:53:40 _dima [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has joined #lisp 11:53:48 Dazhbog_ [n=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 11:53:51 boy, I could get thru some jams in one of those Syn 11:55:11 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:56 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:56:10 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 11:57:38 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 11:57:46 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 11:57:56 HET2 [n=diman@e194-019.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:58:07 -!- fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 12:02:08 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-145-99.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 12:03:39 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-145-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:04:24 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.162.151] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:04:34 KalifG [n=user@166.128.162.151] has joined #lisp 12:05:10 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:05:15 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:42 -!- Dazhbog [i=sampo@geek.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:07:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 12:07:38 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:57 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:10:57 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:19:26 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:19:37 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 12:24:31 -!- rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-159-16.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:53 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:31:47 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@18.190.39.132] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:36:51 Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 12:38:13 -!- HET2 [n=diman@e194-019.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:42:31 a-s` [n=user@85.9.55.98] has joined #lisp 12:44:29 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:45:09 badkins [n=user@adsl-068-209-204-112.sip.rdu.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:34 any ILC 2009 attendees posting good stuff here ? 12:46:30 badkins: there seems to be more ilc on twitter than irc this year 12:46:47 yeah, been following that, just thought I'd check here - thx 12:47:08 are they done with the new CL spec yet? 12:47:11 I'll possibly attempt to mention some things in here, but I'm sort of a newbie :) 12:47:25 lichtblau: disgraceful 12:47:33 ianmcorvidae: how's the conference going? 12:47:38 *rsynnott* still finds twitter quite irritating 12:47:41 just starting, thus far 12:48:10 I'd like to be there, but viewing slides and listening to audio is *so* much more efficient. I hope they record the sessions and make them available. 12:48:30 there is a camera in here; hopefully the videos will get posted 12:50:15 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:52:07 dlowe [n=dlowe@dhcp-18-111-7-175.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 12:52:24 be sure to heckle presenters who say nonsensical things 12:52:27 lukego will thank you 12:52:31 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-4-162.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:52:49 heh. ilc backchannel? 12:54:43 ilc hecklebot plz 12:55:30 I think people will be too overawed by the awesomeness of clojure to be able to say anything 12:55:34 that seems to be the normal reaction 12:55:36 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.162.151] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:56:42 lol 12:56:49 I'm interested in Clojure, and I realize if it was built from scratch (vs. on JVM), it wouldn't be close to where it is today. Still I would prefer a native implementation for the long haul. 12:57:16 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-222.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 12:58:01 badkins: as a matter of interest, why? 12:58:03 LostMonarch [n=roby@host53-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:58:09 the JVM isn't a horrible approach 12:58:22 I guess just a subjective feeling of not wanting to be dependent on another layer. 12:58:26 and it saves having to write a compiler backend for every interesting arch 12:58:41 My rough impression is it's short term gain, long term loss. 12:58:43 what's so good about it 12:58:48 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:59:00 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:12 I think it's a very reasonable approach to use the JVM, and might allow it to actually survive. 12:59:43 it's not a big limiting factor for clojure 12:59:54 JVM's actually pretty fast these days 13:00:17 especially for long-running processes 13:02:00 it's probably the best BDFL game in town - it seem clear now that pg has *no* sense of urgency with Arc 13:02:21 I can easily see a multi-year lull there 13:02:22 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:02:27 hahaha 13:02:37 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:51 that was quite clear a while before now (: 13:03:17 badkins: arc doesn't actually present any interesting features that other things don't have 13:03:25 it's going nowhere fast 13:03:30 very true, but I was holding out hope against hope :) pg got me interested in Lisp (along with many others), and it seemed to be going in a very nice direction. 13:03:31 http://lemonodor.com/archives/001518.html (: 13:04:01 rsynnott don't underestimate the BDFL factor - think Ruby, Python, Perl, etc. 13:04:03 _arc_ was going in a nice direction? 13:04:09 what's BDFL stand for? 13:04:16 seriously? 13:04:33 benevolent dictator for life - e.g. Guido, Matz, Larry 13:04:40 [A 13:04:40 [A 13:04:47 .. argh 13:05:01 in other words, single creator, non-committee language 13:05:06 antifuchs: hah, I was failing to find that 13:05:14 Xof: "lolpg" usually does the trick 13:05:29 *antifuchs* is grateful that there aren't that many postgresql lolthings around 13:05:46 (arc was interesting in that it had no new ideas, and was basically a lisp-1 common lisp with most of the userful stuff removed, annoying name shortening, and horrible ifs 13:06:01 I love the fact that graham felt the need to defend himself 13:06:14 *rsynnott* was amazed it took him 7000 years or whatever 13:06:14 rsynnott: heh. 13:06:39 also, I assume that it being refered to as a 100 year language means that pg expects to live a VERY long time 13:06:57 badkins: ah, I'm not the best at keeping up with acronyms 13:07:14 well, I was able to download it, build it and start working quickly - never could do that with a CL imple 13:07:30 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 13:07:38 removing unnecessary stuff isn't valueless 13:07:48 *rsynnott* can download, build and use php or newlisp quickly 13:07:52 doesn't mean I'd WANT to 13:07:59 I could never do that with ruby or python either, though, so I don't see it a sa major draw 13:08:08 I could 13:08:25 and I didn't even need to download or build perl, it was right there with my OS 13:08:26 ./configure; make; make install; # done 13:08:40 came with std library, etc. 13:08:41 that gets you to the point of "hello world" 13:08:50 wrong 13:08:55 badkins: a similar approach will work with sbcl, too 13:09:00 right 13:09:00 then you still need to figure out "gems" 13:09:03 badkins: apt-get install sbcl, and you are quite ready to rock and roll too, no? 13:09:12 gems takes 5 minutes, if that 13:09:23 (though the instructions for enabling threads are vaguely perplexing the first time you see them) 13:09:27 what libs does sbcl come with ? 13:09:38 dan_b: gems are easier than flailing around with asdf-install before finding clbuild :) 13:09:40 if cl newbies knew about clbuild from the start. makes life easy 13:09:50 if sbcl had: sudo gem install rails that would be nice :) 13:10:05 *rsynnott* still uses a combination of asdf-install and manual installation of libs :S 13:10:08 funny; I've had basically no trouble with asdf-install 13:10:11 my experience with gems when I tried ruby was that they tended to install the wrong versions of stuff 13:10:14 now it has lisp on lines in clbuild... so well (: 13:10:32 dan_b: and getting the paths right is a pain 13:10:33 debian, of course, still comes with clc :) 13:10:34 this was with, um, webrick and that ruby wiki thing whose name I have since forgotten 13:10:39 deliberately to confuse people 13:10:47 i'd rather deploy lisp than ruby 13:10:56 particularly ruby on rails 13:11:03 the familiar is always easier than teh unfamiliar, it's a pointless argument basically 13:11:05 *rsynnott* remembers that being entertainingly terrible to deploy 13:11:13 rsynnott: did you manage to make a qt currency converter screenshot? 13:11:27 might be nice to have you code as an example in commonqt 13:11:39 now that I have seen long-running ruby processes in action, I prefer lisp or jvm as well (: 13:11:50 s/lisp/sbcl/ (: 13:11:50 lichtblau: nope; I spent most of the weekend sleeping 13:11:53 will do it tonight :) 13:12:38 long-running python processes can be weirdly well-behaved 13:12:41 there's one behemoth of a ruby process running on one of the servers i admin 13:12:45 rsynnott: rails is not as horrible nowadays as it was 13:12:49 (to deploy) 13:13:05 res 769M... 13:13:20 the passenger apache plugin works mostly well to reduce hoops you need to jump through 13:13:21 antifuchs: really? I've had mongrel processes (running rails) up for months on end w/ flat mem usage 13:13:23 antifuchs: if you use the mod_rails and have global gem installation, i hear 13:13:36 badkins: tee hee 13:13:39 badkins: I haven't 13:13:47 what version? 13:13:52 i did jump all the hoops once. still no clue how it should have been done 13:13:53 that's ruby 1.8.6 13:13:59 of mongrel 13:14:07 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@dhcp-18-111-7-175.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:14:14 actually, I've always found installing python libraries far more annoying than cl libraries, too 13:14:26 badkins: no more mongrel; I switched to passenger, and despite that giving me problems as well, it works far better now 13:14:32 dlowe [n=dlowe@dhcp-18-111-7-175.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:14:35 cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 13:14:41 rsynnott: there's virtual python that solves the problem 13:14:47 I won't complain, but the mri ruby is really not that excellent. 13:14:53 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@dhcp-18-111-7-175.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:14:59 i have my own wrapper for it, should publish it some day 13:15:21 (threading hangs, really bad gc slowdowns, and other stuff that makes baby jesus cry) 13:15:42 I'd certainly rather be developing apps in Lisp, but I haven't quite found a set of stuff that allows me to be as productive as Ruby/Rails. I expect it exists, and I just need to research/test more. 13:16:38 I did Java from '96 thru '06, so maybe I'll get a chance to use some of my deployment experience to use Clojure. 13:17:47 actually, if folks have pointers to something similar to ActiveRecord, i.e. a simple ORM that works nicely with MySQL and postgres, that would be a heck of a kickstart 13:19:07 dlowe [n=dlowe@dhcp-18-111-7-175.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:22:22 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@dhcp-18-111-7-175.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:22:32 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-217.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:23:10 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:32 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:25 badkins: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-perec/ is sort of activerecordish 13:25:39 though I think it's postgres-centric 13:25:52 that's fine, I'm actually all postgres these days 13:26:11 would you consider it as robust as ActiveRecord? 13:26:42 *rsynnott* hasn't had the no doubt near-orgasmic pleasure of actually using ruby on rails, so wouldn't know 13:26:47 it seems robust enough 13:26:53 there's also this: http://common-lisp.net/project/elephant/ 13:26:56 ha :) 13:27:12 (though it is NOT an ORM, it is an object database, which is a bit different) 13:28:05 "grab the prebuilt 32 bit linux binary distribution uploaded at 2008-02-24" a little discouraging that this is over a year old 13:28:20 maybe it's this stable 13:28:48 badkins: that's a demo 13:29:08 I think it's just the case that no-one has bothered to update the binary dist 13:29:25 (which is just intended as an example, ayway) 13:29:44 ok, I thought that was a prepackaged thing to avoid "wasting time installing all the necessary libraries" 13:31:08 I think the idea is to get people to try it 13:31:18 without first having to install lots of stuff 13:31:29 if they like it and want to use it, they can then install lots of stuff 13:31:44 badkins: well, you seem to /know/ a priori that CL doesn't come with all batteries included. either you live with that or you dont. whining about it is only gonna get into trouble in here. explore the possibilities. sexp-files, bknr, elephant, postmodern,etc. we all use common lisp because it's the best /language/, not because of the libraries. 13:32:09 though some of the libraries are nice, too 13:32:17 *cmm* wonders how much longer he'll be able to ignore anything that has to do with Web and/or databases 13:32:34 I haven't seen anything comparable with elephant elsewhere except for Google App Engine's DB 13:32:38 (which is very, very similar) 13:32:48 cmm: try to do so for as long as possible 13:32:54 web/databases stuff is annoying 13:33:20 rsynnott: that's exactly the theory I'm employing, yeah :) 13:33:21 hypno: what you interpret as "whining", others may interpret as "due diligence" 13:33:24 anyway, it isn't as if this stuff is all that hard to install 13:33:34 I'm looking for ways to be able to use it, not the reverse. 13:33:44 badkins: well, both things are routinely done by lawyers, yes :) 13:33:50 ouch 13:34:21 The Ruby guys said similar things when I was Java programmer considering a switch to Ruby, so I understand. 13:35:00 it's natural to get defensive when some stranger comes in with some skepticism 13:35:18 badkins: Are you considering using/learning lisp? 13:35:30 badkins: anyway, can you now start using lisp and get back when you have something to say? 13:35:31 wingo-tp [n=wingo@18.190.26.53] has joined #lisp 13:35:39 I've already started learning it - got SICP, ACL, PCL, etc. 13:35:51 just having trouble getting productive with *heavy* web/database work 13:35:56 Has it changed your life yet? 13:36:09 badkins: postmodern, elephant. go crazy :) 13:36:15 ok, now you're mocking - thx 13:36:16 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:18 sounds like you've loaded your mind (and bookshelf) up with acronyms :) 13:36:46 H4ns maybe you can just shut up a bit instead of copying your Lisp idols mannerisms 13:37:07 badkins: why so rude? 13:37:09 badkins: I'm mocking? No, I'm not, really. Lisp, in all honestly, intrigues me incredibly, and has forever changed the way I think about programming and preferred ways to program. 13:37:26 badkins: uh, oh, i did not recognize that i was the newbie and you were the regular seeing your cozy channel be polluted with noise. 13:37:34 Quadrescence: I don't expect *any* programming language to "change my life" 13:37:46 badkins: I wouldn't expect it either. 13:37:56 then why the question? 13:38:52 "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing." 13:38:57 H4ns just kindly point me to some web apps written in Lisp, and I'll be on my way to research them and leave you to peace and quiet. 13:39:07 (incf stassats) 13:39:30 stassats`: knowing or learning? 13:39:36 badkins: go poke a look at tomoyuki's thing. It uses elephant. 13:39:44 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 13:39:45 Sometimes things happen that you don't expect. Before I learned about lisp, I just joked about it having horrible syntax and laughed at the ()())))))(()(())((). Once I actually learned some of it out of whim, it really has made me...obsessed. Maybe that's just me and being weird though. 13:39:53 badkins: i don't feel obligued. you could flex google, for a start. 13:39:58 xuanwu__ [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:07 guaqua: ask Alan Perlis 13:40:19 badkins: http://github.com/tomoyuki28jp/web4r/tree/master Take this. Shut up, and Go Away. 13:40:24 :) 13:40:33 H4ns btdt 13:40:57 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-241.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:41:05 guaqua: but that's a philosophical question, learning without knowing, and knowing without learning 13:41:11 "Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it; that experience will make you a better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never actually use Lisp itself a lot." 13:41:41 Quadrescence: I don't know if I agree with all this ooh ah lisp stuff. Maybe it does more harm than good. 13:41:50 although I like it better than other stuff 13:42:15 stassats`: oh yes. how do you know what to learn and decide to learn beforehand. 13:42:26 sykopomp: "I started to learn Common Lisp in July 2008" - I don't really have time to debug a newbies experiment, but thx 13:43:04 badkins: oh, you are very lucky you weren't here a year or so ago 13:43:12 sykopomp: I think it's unfair to say that lisp (generally, not CL or anything) is implemented better than other languages. But I really feel that there is a certain thing about lisp that makes it inherently better than all others. But, as I said, I might just be weird. 13:43:13 it was a much meaner channel then :) 13:43:23 sykopomp: SUGA? :D 13:43:30 p_l: suga? 13:43:37 sykopomp: Shut Up and Go Away :) 13:43:37 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.243.206] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:43:38 badkins: please conclude: "common lisp is not good for web development". it is a great programming language and it is also useful to write web apps, but only if what you want is use lisp. if you don't, other languages will make writing web apps easier. 13:43:41 oh yes 13:44:02 rsynnott: I've been on comp.lang.lisp for a *long* time, if I wasn't immune to "mean" I wouldn't be still here. 13:44:14 badkins: oh, that explains why you're such a douchebag 13:44:28 comp.lang.lisp tends more toward 'totally stark raving mad' than 'mean' 13:44:29 H4ns: that's my tentative conclusion, yes, but I'm trying to disprove it. 13:44:38 I was wondering why some random schmuck would just waltz in here and wave his dick around like that. Being from c.l.l. certainly explains it... 13:44:45 though 'totally stark raving mad' in a rather charming way, by and large 13:44:45 *sykopomp* goes back to code 13:44:51 badkins: Maybe you can make it great for web programming. ;) 13:44:57 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:45:20 Ruby would've sucked before Rails (and other frameworks), so I'd prefer a good language with yet-to-be-developed frameworks, but it still requires research/testing/false-starst, etc. 13:45:34 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.242.22] has joined #lisp 13:45:37 we don't really care about ruby 13:45:39 or java 13:45:54 guaqua: By default, we have to care about Fortran, right 13:45:54 ? 13:45:57 ;) 13:46:00 so if you are going to talk about ruby and java, i suggest the appropriate channels 13:46:05 badkins: what makes you think that we care about your preferences? 13:46:19 of course you do, you love this dialog 13:46:22 Quadrescence: the generic fortran 13:46:32 FORTRAN H 13:47:53 *p_l* actually has in his toolkit some code in F77 that is quite useful and not suspected for replacing soon 13:48:14 p_l: Needs more f95 13:48:35 Quadrescence: It's converted to C for compilation :D 13:48:38 people use f95? 13:48:55 rsynnott: I do. I think it's a *lot* better than f77. 13:49:29 Quadrescence: the new code written for it is in C, usually, or some special-purpose stuff, but afaik no one dares to upgrade the old libs from F77 13:49:44 -!- Pegazus_ [n=awefawe@201.253.217.14] has quit [] 13:49:53 though I haven't used it in some time, so it might have changed 13:50:06 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:50:25 p_l: I doubt anyone would upgrade from f77. tbqh, saying "I use f95" is more like "I use f95 when I'm not using C or lisp", which isn't terribly often. 13:50:59 Well, I'm off to lectures. AFK 13:52:27 In Queinecc's book, he says in the first or second chapter than no language yet supports, to say it loosely, alpha-conversion. That is, there are problems with lambda functions and the variable names; collisions that might occur, or a lack of working with lambda functions guaranteeing symbols won't collide. Is this the case with lisps still? Or am I misunderstanding something? 13:53:31 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:53:38 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:42 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:42 <_3b> Quadrescence: without knowing teh context, it sounds like it is talking about dynamic scope causing problems 13:56:23 Quadrescence: do you have it in french or english? What page? 13:56:30 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 13:56:32 pjb`: English. Let me find it. 13:56:43 What section then. 13:58:13 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1F6AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:58:50 segv [n=mb@p4FC1E5F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:08 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B9D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:26 -!- aggieben__ is now known as aggieben 14:00:51 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:00:56 pjb`: 1.6.1, before the code fragment: (define (map fn l) ; mapcar in Lisp 14:01:36 <_3b> hm, Queinnec has a paper about a massively parallel scheme... have to read that at some point 14:01:52 Beket [n=stathis@155.207.244.178] has joined #lisp 14:01:57 -!- cpape [n=user@host16084.pik-potsdam.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:02:19 Yes, he makes reference to "dynamic lisp" which is what LISP 1.5 did or emacs lisp does: no lexical closure, only special bindings. 14:02:25 ewh 14:03:27 "[Stuff about alpha-conversion and the naming invariance in lambda functions... 14:03:47 ] We're still waiting for a language to respect this invariant. 14:03:53 " 14:04:24 excuse me which book are you talking about? 14:04:35 L.i.S.P. 14:04:41 minion: LiSP? 14:04:42 LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 14:04:57 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:05:01 ok I'm reading the right book... 14:06:49 In the 2nd edition in French: "Les variables d'une fonction telle que (lambda (u) (+ u u)) sont ce que l'on nomme traditionnellement /muettes/. Leur nom n'a aucune importance et peut être remplacé par tout autre nom. La fonction (lambda (r345) (+ r345 r345)) n'est ni plus ni moins[23] que la fonction (lambda (u) (+ u u)). On peut donc attendre du langage que soit respecté cet invariant. Il n'en est rien en Lisp dynamique. Considérez 14:06:49 seulement[24]:" 14:06:53 et suit l'exemple. 14:07:24 [23]= En termes techniques du -calcul, ce changement de noms de variable s 14:07:35 'appelle une -conversion. 14:08:01 That's all. 14:08:18 in CL you'll have troubles with special variables too, right? 14:08:22 Que veut dire "muettes"? 14:08:32 <_3b> thats why we use ** on specials 14:08:37 ooh, learn about lisp interpreters/compilers and improve my french at the same time! 14:08:42 Quadrescence: mute 14:08:45 Ça veut dire que leur nom est indiférent. 14:08:46 Ah 14:08:54 _3b: yes, but conceptually 14:09:20 stassats`: indeed, if you use special variables, you can have that problem. 14:09:22 (particularly important now as both English-speaking EU countries look set to be in recession basically forever :S) 14:10:05 <_3b> macros can have similar problems as well 14:10:10 stassats`: imagine that you do (setf i 0) at the repl, and that it makes i special. Then you load the source of a library where i is used in a higher level function, then you may fall in that trap. 14:10:41 pjb`: that i understand 14:11:04 I still don't grok lexical/dynamic scope. Better read again. 14:11:16 *_3b* grumbles about libraries with unseedable/non-repeatable random # generators 14:11:58 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@18.190.26.53] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:22 _3b: are there many? 14:12:41 <_3b> don't see any way to seed the flash Math.random() 14:12:55 *rsynnott* does find it annoying that the seed for the sbcl random thing is a big weird creature, and not simply an ordinary number 14:13:23 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:13:40 Quadrescence: with lexical variables, you know what the binding is by looking at the lexical context, the source of the program. (let ((i 1)) (f i)) ; you know that (f 1) is called. 14:15:24 Quadrescence: with special variable, the binding is dynamic: it can change depending on _when_ it is evaluated. (defvar *i* 1) (defvar *g* (lambda () (f *i*))) ; there you don't know what will be passed to f. It depends when it is called. If it is called when we execute: (let ((*i* 4)) (funcall *g*)), then (f 4) is called. 14:17:31 That example seems to be the case with both lexical and dynamic binding. Can you think of a short example where two syntactically equal constructs will produce different results? 14:17:59 The example in L.i.S.P. 14:18:05 (if that is not the case, don't hesitate to bluntly say "YOU'RE WRONG") 14:18:13 Alright, I'll read the section over again. 14:19:58 -!- aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:20:22 rich_holygoat [n=rich_hol@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 14:20:40 -!- rich_holygoat [n=rich_hol@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Client Quit] 14:21:06 In a DSL, I want ":" to be a legal character inside symbols. I found in CLHS about the "package marker" trait of ":". How do I remove or change this trait for the time of a READ ? 14:21:15 you can't 14:21:20 <_3b> write your own read 14:21:44 :-( 14:22:00 <_3b> yep, would be nice if READ was just a bit more flexible 14:22:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:23:03 pjb pasted "special variables" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77463 14:23:30 Quadrescence: have a look at the pasted example "special variables" 14:23:57 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:25 kuwabara: http://darcs.informatimago.com/lisp/common-lisp/reader.lisp 14:25:09 kuwabara: see for example http://darcs.informatimago.com/lisp/common-lisp/source-text.lisp 14:25:50 pjb`: thanks 14:26:01 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:20 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:28 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:35 rich_holygoat [i=pigeon@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 14:29:52 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.246.1] has joined #lisp 14:30:23 well, that was a fun ten minutes looking for a server with both irssi and able to reach freenode... 14:32:55 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-217.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 14:33:54 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:35:54 I can't seem to be able to acces to SB!IMPL::*constituent-trait-table* where a very small change could fit my needs. 14:36:03 -!- AWizzArd [n=the@splendidlord.com] has left #lisp 14:36:29 SB-IMPL::*constituent-trait-table* ? 14:36:40 willb [n=wibenton@128.105.48.97] has joined #lisp 14:36:43 stassats`: great 14:36:45 we disguise our symbols so that they can't be accessed by the uninitiated 14:36:48 SB!IMPL is while generating the implementation. 14:37:04 stassats has just earned himself a short life of looking over his shoulder for the inevitable retribution 14:39:31 kuwabara: What exactly are you trying to do? 14:41:57 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.242.22] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:42:31 jlf` [n=user@nmd.sbx05975.petalca.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:20 this one works: (setf (elt SB-IMPL::*constituent-trait-table* (char-code #\:)) SB-IMPL::+char-attr-constituent+) 14:44:14 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:44:42 tcr: a DSL, but the notation xxx:yyy a too well known in the field to be avoided. 14:44:48 *Xof* looks forward to kuwabara trying to set the value back 14:44:48 something does work, and what doesn't work with that change? 14:45:18 kuwabara: The DSL is sexp-based? 14:45:30 tcr: yes 14:46:52 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:47:06 *Xof* wins 14:47:15 SBCL once more builds from gcc 14:47:17 I choose the sexp notation, and at first I implemented it using strings "xxx:yyy", but it seems people didn't like to have to add quotes around these as they should feel like symbols, and not strings. 14:48:57 make them use  instead (\ufe55) 14:49:39 Seriously? 14:49:47 me? No 14:50:09 You never know! 14:50:31 you tracked down the host clisp problems? 14:50:52 or fixed compiling xcl? :-) 14:50:58 I fixed compiling xcl 14:51:04 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-159-16.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 14:51:12 Has anybody ever used Syntax::Highlight::Engine::Kate::Common_Lisp CPAN module? 14:51:28 and the accumulated bugs from not having tried cross-compiling sbcl for 9 months 14:51:42 vy: is that a joke ? 14:51:46 hi dear 14:52:04 lispers 14:53:07 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 14:53:14 tracking down the host clisp problems... well, first I'm going to see if I can track down the occasional small differences between xcl and sbcl xc fasls 14:53:44 well, that's still cool. just not quite as cool as fixing the clisp problems :-) 14:54:00 what's piso up to these days, anyway? 14:54:24 one thing I have noticed, though: if I change block-gensym to use make-symbol instead of gensym (for cross-implementation same symbol name guarantees), the compiler slows down massively 14:54:42 presumably because all symbols suddenly have the same hash code, but it's still surprising 14:55:16 -!- diog3n3s [n=diog3n3s@97.118.148.234] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:57 is it the xc or the target that slows down? 14:58:07 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:58:14 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:40 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-145-99.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:59:40 -!- pierre__thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:00:28 pierre__thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:33 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:54 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-41becba159652ca4] has joined #lisp 15:01:22 -!- willb [n=wibenton@128.105.48.97] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:58 willb [n=wibenton@nat/redhat/x-02e3a04ed2b88e12] has joined #lisp 15:04:23 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:04:46 jsnell: I think both 15:04:50 oh, maybe not 15:04:52 maybe just the xc 15:05:04 egoz [n=egoz@125.166.160.177] has joined #lisp 15:05:06 certainly the build process doubles or triples in length 15:05:11 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-137-157.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:05:16 I haven't really measured the resulting target 15:05:20 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 15:05:56 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:06:19 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:07:02 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:16 wrtp [n=rog@78.148.182.173] has joined #lisp 15:07:49 hmm... I guess the problem would be globaldb-sxhashoid. you could push a random number on the symbol-plist on symbol creation, and use that as the hash value there 15:07:56 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:08 Xof: so sbcl now xcompiles from xcl more reliably than from clisp? (: 15:09:46 "XCL is a Common lisp implementation licensed under GPL. It has been developed in secret by Peter Graves, the author of ABCL." 15:09:49 heheh 15:09:58 antifuchs: I think it's done that for ages 15:10:09 *antifuchs* giggles 15:10:18 antifuchs: the current problems have been from bugs we have introduced, not anything that's changed elsewhere 15:10:35 *rsynnott* wonders does it have the same frightening GPL gotchas that clisp claims the GPL imposes upon it 15:10:48 (do not use the FFI if you know what's good for you, etc.) 15:11:07 I think it gets round that by not having an ffi 15:11:34 ah, there is also an impl called sacla 15:11:55 presumably maintaining the proud tradition of confusing naming in weird languages 15:12:23 (sacla/scala, clozure/clojure/closure, python/python etc.) 15:14:35 names given by gensym would be better 15:15:10 milanj [n=milan@93.86.57.52] has joined #lisp 15:15:29 *_3b* should rename my lisp to #:G491614 15:17:33 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:50 <_3b> i'd only have 130 or so google hits to compete with then 15:18:21 *stassats`* remembers "We" by Zamyatin, where people have similar names 15:18:25 -!- wrtp [n=rog@78.148.182.173] has left #lisp 15:18:54 If I have (when (somethingp foo) (error " foo is not something, but ~s" foo)), are there any reasons for not using assert instead? 15:19:57 assert would be neater 15:20:19 also consider check-type 15:20:20 I can't see any reason for not using assert, but people still continue to use (when .. (error.. 15:20:24 also, lets you inspect and change things leading up to the assert failing 15:20:36 typecase, is nice 15:20:52 ctypecase 15:21:29 and ccase 15:21:44 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:03 I'd use "unless" instead of "when" 15:27:12 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:31:40 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-217.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:32:40 Good news! Syntax::Highlight::Engine::Kate::Common_Lisp is totally broken! 15:32:59 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:37 as is traditional for all cl highlighting things which live outside emacs 15:33:48 ejs [n=eugen@100-114-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:01 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:34:06 -!- moocow is now known as holycow 15:34:23 woopdeedoo [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:58 I was so close to put texi2html in a bearable shape. 15:35:42 I don't know which is easier: To fix Syntax::Highlight::Engine::Kate::Common_Lisp, or integrate lisppaset into texi2html. 15:36:39 vy: Don't you feel just a little dirty trying to highlight CL code using perl? 15:37:00 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:37:03 tmh: So you have a texi2html alternative? 15:37:05 -!- bbe [n=bbe@221.226.129.207] has quit [Broken pipe] 15:37:18 *vy* reminds that texi2html is written in Perl. 15:37:35 vy: I'm not the one trying highlight CL code. ;-) 15:37:56 I just asked if you feel dirty. 15:38:28 I certainly do. But everything you try to do in the shell is dirty. 15:38:32 aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:44 Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 15:39:11 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:39:15 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:39:22 I htink I'm using enscript with cvsweb for the markup display option, and it also doesn't support lisp (and is also written in perl) 15:39:30 s/htink/think/ 15:40:30 doesn't lisppaste come with something that can be used to fontify stuff? 15:41:06 various pastebins appear to also do it, at least minimally 15:41:07 cmm: It depends on :araneida and :cl-irc. 15:41:34 Actually, I could make a fork of its colorizing code. 15:41:36 yeah. check out the lisppaste2 thingy from the source control, it has something called "colorize" that is separatable and doesn't depend on much. certainly neither of those two 15:41:39 -!- aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:41:58 It has some HTML encoding dependencies. Should be simple to replace. 15:42:34 OTOH, how to integrate this with texi2html is another question. 15:43:23 -!- Beket [n=stathis@155.207.244.178] has quit ["br"] 15:43:30 kreuter [i=kreuter@dhcp-18-111-8-130.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:43:40 vy: you could use emacs's buffer-htmlization code to (ahem) print a fontified CL buffer to html 15:43:43 there might exist various perl sexp parsers, considering how easy they are to write 15:43:57 vy: that could be a quick and neat hack (: 15:44:21 ...and it wouldn't require much perl hacking at all 15:44:38 certainly no CL syntax parsing from perl 15:45:25 or use matimago's reader and write your own. 15:45:45 it's a shame that so few tools written in common lisp exist that manipulate common lisp source code. 15:45:54 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:46:06 most want common lisp source objects (: 15:47:31 willb1 [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:51:43 somebody at the ILC is planning on giving a lightning round talk about a program that portably uses the standard reader to futz with source, so it's not strictly impossible (given sufficiently worky echo-streams) 15:51:57 lightning talk, that is. 15:52:15 aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:15 out of curiosity, how many people in here and paying attention are at ILC (other than myself)? 15:53:57 I'm at the ILC as of this morning. 15:54:08 depends on how interesting the speaker is, surely 15:54:17 you know something's going wrong when the speaker is active on irc 15:54:22 well naturally 15:54:24 lol 15:54:30 LOL 15:54:31 Xof: surely there are counterex 15:54:33 ampls 15:54:46 e.g., somebody presenting an IRC client. 15:54:53 perhaps if they're giving a presentation on an IRC... yeah, that 15:54:59 a colleague of mine was "live twittering" a conference he was at last week 15:55:11 sounds like an affliction. 15:55:12 the organizers found his feed, and suddenly he was a lot less sarcastic 15:55:26 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:55:38 there's a collection of a few of us twittering/identicaing (well, only me for the latter) the conference as it happens 15:56:07 Xof: you are not attending the ILC, is that right? 15:56:13 correct 15:56:18 ah well. 15:56:28 sorry; I've had plenty of other things to deal with 15:56:34 ianmcorvidae: what are 'identicaing'? 15:56:36 -!- jlf` [n=user@nmd.sbx05975.petalca.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:56:59 identi.ca is an open source twitter-style site using the software laconica 15:57:05 ah 15:58:39 the front row today consists of three-fifths of the quiquevirate. 15:59:32 hmm? 15:59:44 ah, antique trivia 16:00:10 "quinquevirate" 16:00:17 the n is quite important 16:00:28 yes, of course. 16:00:32 otherwise it renders as who?and?men :-) 16:00:47 Xof: well, ianmcorvidae basically said "Who?" :) 16:01:23 has there ever been a real-world example of a quinquevirate? 16:01:25 kreuter: who are the quinquevirate ? 16:01:41 <_3b> hm, SciCL looks interesting 16:01:45 triumvirates were fairly common, I know 16:01:53 fe[nl]ix: Steele, Gabriel, Weinreb (down in front), and Fahlman and Moon. 16:02:15 well, you can say "hi" from me 16:02:17 oh, of course 16:02:19 it won't mean much to them, though 16:02:21 fair, heh 16:02:58 -!- willb [n=wibenton@nat/redhat/x-02e3a04ed2b88e12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:03:04 freelab [n=freelab@119.129.198.117] has joined #lisp 16:03:15 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [] 16:03:19 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.213.204] has joined #lisp 16:03:32 jfm3 [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:04:33 kreuter: You can eval (map (lambda (x) (tell x "hello from Robert Smith")) quinquevirate) in their proximity for me. It would probably mean even less to them than Xof saying hi. 16:04:56 uhm 16:05:16 anybody else? :) 16:05:17 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:05:19 ;) 16:05:25 ah, the people who write books out in force, then :) 16:06:01 are any of the other SBCL hackers at the ILC today? 16:06:14 (F(any)VO "other") 16:06:18 lichtblau is there 16:06:40 yep, he's part of the twittering group 16:06:43 hm. I wonder what he looks like. 16:06:59 he's human 16:07:02 not how I expected him to look 16:07:04 that may not help you 16:07:06 does anyone know which twitter accounts to look at for ILC stuff? 16:07:09 tall, thin, (last time we met) short dark hair 16:07:12 *rsynnott* is curious 16:07:18 rsynnott: http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23ilc09 16:07:21 I think I have a bad photo around 16:07:26 fe[nl]ix: unfortunately, that doesn't narrow things down much. 16:07:35 also #ilc2009 16:07:35 -!- ASau` [n=user@host64-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off!"] 16:07:36 H4ns: confoundingly, some people use #ilc2009 (: 16:07:39 oh 16:07:43 still? 16:07:43 antifuchs: no no, that photo doesn't exist! :-) 16:07:45 they're being used interchangebly... yeah 16:07:46 ah, twitter has search now?! 16:07:49 progress! 16:07:51 lichtblau: you're right (: 16:07:57 it will miss people, though 16:08:04 I have a non-existant photo of lichtblau (: 16:08:20 for example, none of my stuff has been appearing (although perhaps that's just since I'm logged in? No idea.) 16:08:21 *rsynnott* should really have gone to the one that was nearby when I had a chance 16:08:26 antifuchs: what does it look like? 16:08:27 it seems most people use #ilc2009 16:08:31 (I think it was in the UK last year) 16:08:37 two years ago, yeah 16:08:47 blurry (: 16:08:51 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 16:08:54 ilc07 was in the other cambridge, the one near rsynnott rather than near me :P 16:08:56 kreuter: just look around for someone mad enough to run lisp-written-in-java on a jvm-written-in-lisp 16:09:00 ah, yep 16:09:03 there can't be that many of them 16:09:11 Xof: I'm afraid that may not narrow things down all that much, either. 16:09:14 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:27 *rsynnott* can get to cambridge 1 for about 10 euro, or cambridge 2 for about 600, plus a new passport :P 16:09:30 or else shout "who wrote ldapvi?" in the middle of a talk 16:09:35 guaranteed to get _you_ recognized 16:09:47 *antifuchs* giggles 16:09:53 kreuter: I'm wearing my name tag, but see also http://media.linkedin.com/mpr/mpr/shrink_80_80/p/1/000/01d/189/296b173.jpg 16:10:03 (where are you sitting?) 16:10:19 actually, while people are in conference mood 16:10:20 i don't like those dangling right parens 16:10:32 on the right, second row from the speaker. blue shirt. 16:10:32 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:35 if I organized an SBCL 10 workshop in London in December, who would be tempted to come? 16:10:56 probably the week of December 14th, if it matters 16:11:00 strongly tempted 16:11:14 Xof: I might. 16:11:39 I would be very interested but would likely be just as broke as I am now an thus unable to come 16:11:58 I don't mean to rudely interrupt, but... In the picture that follows is the current behavior of my lisp, and I'm not really sure how I'd classify the binding. My gut feeling is closer to dynamic, but 95% of you are surely more experienced than I. -> http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1233/img0304a.jpg 16:11:59 s/an/and/ 16:12:08 tempted, since I haven't been to london yet. Can't be certain yet though. 16:12:08 I'd be tempted, but have only really poked vaguely at sbcl internals so far, so probably underqualified 16:12:22 spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.18.103] has joined #lisp 16:12:29 oh, london's great 16:12:38 Quadrescence: you can't tell 16:12:41 -!- spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.18.103] has quit [Client Quit] 16:12:50 Xof: I was thinking that might be the case here. 16:12:51 oh, yeah, if I need to be qualified then I definitely wouldn't be making it ;) 16:13:05 rsynnott: health warning: not the bit of it I'm in 16:13:30 jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has joined #lisp 16:14:06 -!- willb1 is now known as willb 16:14:10 Xof: to visit, anyway 16:14:18 not sure I'd like to live there; it's intimidatingly big 16:14:19 even east london is mostly OK 16:14:23 I'm not asking for firm commitments, just general expressions of interest or lack of it 16:14:24 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:14:40 OK, for my Wednesday talk, I think I'll demo the CLIM desktop, drawing things from the listener, defining presentation types and doing present and accept, running Couseau and (of course) Gsharp) 16:14:44 I've made a note in my calendar (: 16:14:46 willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:14:49 s/)// 16:15:31 Xof: I'm still interested 16:16:09 Quadrescence: I think you can tell that from the SETQ on top, it's supposed to be dynamic binding taking place; but you couldn't tell from the behavior 16:16:23 would people have a preference for unstructured hacking/whiteboard time or more formal paper/talks? 16:16:44 -!- pierre__thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:47 "some of each" is obviously a possibility too 16:17:01 statement of intent to present a topic and a rough schedule 16:17:19 for an SBCL conference? I'd probably say the balance should be towards the former, but talks are good 16:17:56 pierre__thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:02 if you go the more formal route, maybe you can get it sponsored by SIGPLAN, though (-: 16:18:25 so yeah, that's a "some of each" for me 16:18:28 -!- jfm3 [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:18:57 just for PR purposes, it might be good to cut a 1.1 release at the thing. :) 16:19:10 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 16:19:23 I like the way you're thinking 16:20:04 "builds with clisp" 16:20:06 so 1.0.30 -> 1.1? :) 16:20:19 speaking of, who's doing a release this month? I'll be able to do it this weekend, if nobody else wants to. 16:20:31 I'll come for drinks (seeing as I live here anyway ...) 16:20:48 I'm intending to make registration minimally expensive 16:21:49 if I play my cards right, I can have venue plus some subsidy before we start 16:21:49 yay 16:21:52 Xof: tempted 16:22:11 ok, sounds like there's enough interest for me to say that it's plausible 16:22:24 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:22:28 Xof: some nice university/college will surely give you a room for cheap/free? 16:22:50 rsynnott: it helps that I work at one. Generally, though, they don't 16:23:10 this is likely to be a fairly small meeting if it happens, anyway 16:23:19 which makes finding spaces easier 16:23:24 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 16:23:28 ah, the university I went to was generally pretty good about it if the organiser could claim vague affiliation with it 16:23:46 "some bistro at st. pancras station" (-: 16:23:54 (they have free wifi) (: 16:24:01 there was even a small chance that the overhead might work(!) 16:24:59 antifuchs: Is it sufficient to explain the behavior as the followint?: all bindings are found within the most recently constructed environment, and all environments are searched in reverse chronological order. A new environment is created upon using special constructions (e.g., LET), or application of a function. Symbols bound via SETQ are bound within the most recent environment unless they are already bound in previous environments, which ( 16:24:59 the environments and bindings within) are searched in reverse chronological order. 16:25:15 s/followint/following/ 16:25:19 <_3b> i should stop trying to use my lisp... every time i do, i find more broken stuff i need to fix :p 16:25:35 _3b: that's good, surely? :) 16:26:04 <_3b> rsynnott: yeah, just pushes back the 'getting done with the actual project' part :) 16:26:12 <_3b> Quadrescence: setq doesn't create bindings 16:26:20 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:26:57 _3b: This isn't CL or any other lisp you've heard of, but, nonetheless, what does one say SETQ does? 16:27:15 <_3b> Quadrescence: setq modifies an existing binding, generally the same one that would have been read by a variable access in the same position 16:28:09 If the binding doesn't already exist, my above statement assumes that a new binding will be created. 16:28:44 Or, more correctly, a new binding /will/ be created via SETQ/ 16:28:45 <_3b> Quadrescence: in that case, you should probably understand lexical vs dynamic scope before trying to pick semantics for cteating new bincings at usage time 16:29:39 Fair enough. 16:30:25 -!- freelab [n=freelab@119.129.198.117] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:30:29 -!- ejs [n=eugen@100-114-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:30:57 <_3b> creating dynamic bindings without warning could be ugly, typos could break unrelated code 16:31:28 <_3b> and creating lexical bindings seems like it could interact confusingly with closures, but possibly that could be specified sanely 16:32:40 _3b: That is true. I was contemplating changing SETQ to only modify bindings, and use DEFINE to make them. The negative about that, in my opinion, is some redundancy. 16:33:03 <_3b> redundancy can be very useful 16:33:41 I could see the 'redundancy' useful in compiling. 16:34:06 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:34:11 <_3b> (DEFINE X) has more information than (SETQ X) 16:34:17 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:34:51 _3b: Right. 16:35:14 <_3b> creating bindings imperatively seems a bit un-lispy though 16:38:29 -!- kreuter [i=kreuter@dhcp-18-111-8-130.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:38:36 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:38:45 hehe: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/07/web20_for_developers/page2.html 16:38:50 oops, wrong place 16:39:18 wrong web version :) 16:40:56 are the cl-irc maintainers around? 16:42:59 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:44:00 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1E5F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:46:19 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:48:35 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:01 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:44 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:52 <_3b> wonder how i missed (funcall (let ((a 1)) (flet ((b () a)) (function b)))) not working :/ 16:49:59 -!- pierre__thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51:04 pierre__thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:52 segv [n=mb@p4FC1E5F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:18 -!- egoz [n=egoz@125.166.160.177] has quit [] 16:53:28 Is Closure operational these days? 16:53:55 (I know, I could try it, which in fact I am, but I am running into a bit of trouble, so it would save time if I knew it wasn't worth trying) 16:54:47 i get misplaced graphics in it 16:55:11 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:55:12 That's OK, I'll just show that it exists. 16:58:02 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:59:41 <_3b> guess i should probably have a test to verify that closed over bindings actually work in some form too 17:00:47 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 17:01:18 stassats`: I see what you mean. 17:01:23 stassats`: It looks pretty bad 17:03:15 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:59 damn I hate windows programmers. It's a crying shame I have to be one. 17:05:09 sequences don't have an equivalent to #'last ? :) 17:05:25 -!- a-s` [n=user@85.9.55.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:05:40 (subseq sequence (1- (length sequence))) 17:05:43 (elt sequence (1- (length sequence)) 17:05:46 ) 17:05:48 yeah that's what I did 17:05:55 stassats`: no, that's (car (last ...)) 17:06:10 but then you also need to check for the length > 1 etc 17:06:23 so the code is a tiny bit larger than last :D 17:06:51 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:06:54 yeah. Given that even LAST is a rare operation in my experience, perhaps you should use this as a hint that you might be doing something a little bit odd 17:07:16 basically, just check if the last char of a string is something 17:07:36 it's using subseq for that I find odd 17:08:32 last is the type of operation that is normally rare on lists, I agree 17:08:39 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:10 (eql (mismatch "c" string :from-end t) 0) 17:09:34 <_3b> ok, works much better if i actually generate closure var setting code to set closure vars :) 17:09:43 bonus points for fixing the degenerate case 17:10:37 (not (eql (mismatch "c" string :from-end t) 1)) 17:10:55 hehe 17:10:58 beach: it's working well for me on OSX/ppc 17:11:11 Fade: have you perhaps mistaken clozure for closure? 17:11:33 serves me right for reading backlogs before coffee. yes. 17:11:40 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:12:01 closure doesn't seem to actually compile on any lisp I'm using. 17:12:21 and (mismatch "c" "c" :from-end t) => nil 17:12:41 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-22-104.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:49 stassats`: right, you need the second version 17:12:51 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:12:59 oh, i see 17:13:21 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:13:59 Is it possible to trace all functions ? 17:14:41 You wouldn't want to. 17:14:56 all my functions ;) 17:15:55 I've rewritten codes from PAIP book, and simplifier won't work :\ 17:16:35 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 17:17:19 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:17:38 (loop for symbol being the present-symbol of your-package when (fboundp symbol) do (eval `(trace ,symbol))) 17:18:01 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250003.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:18:11 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:18:16 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:25 very nice :D thx stassats` 17:19:59 c|mell [n=cmell@x250005.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:20:19 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:21 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 17:25:35 khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-103-91.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:43 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:27:02 diog3n3s [n=diog3n3s@97-118-156-192.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:50 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-29-173.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:28 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 17:32:03 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-103-91.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:32:51 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-013-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:54 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 17:33:53 kreuter [i=kreuter@dhcp-18-111-8-130.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:34:40 moon: "behave." 17:34:45 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:34:57 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:35:53 sreeram_ [n=sreeram@59.92.82.33] has joined #lisp 17:37:10 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:40:45 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-04909130f294d2db] has joined #lisp 17:40:54 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 17:41:37 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:41:56 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:41:59 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:42:10 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:42:21 kmcorbett [n=Keith@dhcp-18-111-20-88.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:43:24 newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has joined #lisp 17:43:36 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [No route to host] 17:44:09 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA213.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 17:44:26 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@dhcp-18-111-20-88.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:45:10 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:28 -!- newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has left #lisp 17:45:36 ugh, not another indentation-sensitive language... 17:45:45 :) 17:45:51 heh 17:46:04 where?! 17:46:05 *_3b* doesn't like those 17:46:16 rsynnott: Moon's talk at ILC 17:46:17 how ever will we write polyglot programs with Whitespace if there keep being all these whitespace-sensitive languages? 17:46:20 (ILC) 17:46:21 ah 17:46:37 at least it doesn't have the "Expressions are not Statements" idea. 17:46:43 I'm willing to tolerate python on the basis that it's better than most other such languages 17:46:49 and there are many, many jobs in it 17:46:55 ianmcorvidae: I like to think of Whitespace as a "very indentation-sensitive" language 17:47:03 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:47:09 that's rather accurate, yes :P 17:47:14 where can i find updates about what is happening at ilc? sorry for the stupid question 17:47:38 tombom: loosely, #lisp, evidently. 17:47:42 tombom: in Cambridge Mass. 17:47:44 listen to what we're saying here, when we're talking, or look at the twitter tags #ilc09 and #ilc2009 17:47:47 heh ok 17:47:49 thanks 17:47:51 beach's suggestion is the best, though. 17:49:35 can one look at twitter tags without an account? 17:49:46 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@dhcp-18-111-20-88.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:49:58 <_3b> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=+%23ilc09+OR+%23ilc2009 17:50:52 thakns 17:50:54 thanks 17:51:48 <_3b> yay, "VerifyError: Error #1068: global and global cannot be reconciled." 17:52:13 <_3b> wonder what i did to confuse flash this time :p 17:53:35 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 17:53:59 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.213.204] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:38 josemanuel [n=josemanu@172.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:55:54 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:59:05 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:59:33 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 17:59:47 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-033d8.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:02:30 -!- sreeram_ [n=sreeram@59.92.82.33] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:12 I am suffering a little from too much syntax 18:05:21 agreed 18:06:09 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:06:09 sellout- [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:08:53 -!- deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:56 it sounds like you could implement lisp macros on top of this tho 18:11:06 a neat hack, at least 18:12:56 -!- benny` is now known as benny 18:13:25 certainly interesting... though my current pragmatic self is apparently not in the "Old Timer" target demographic 18:13:44 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 18:13:51 holy crap 18:13:52 hah, there's a quote 18:13:55 "defmacro defmacro" 18:14:12 yo dawg, I put a macro system in your macro system so you can defmacro defmacro when you defmacro defmacro. 18:14:30 wrt yesterday's discussion of emacs: http://philosecurity.org/2009/03/23/pirates-and-ninjas-emacs-or-vi 18:14:33 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 18:15:39 tombom_ [i=tombom@82.26.200.9] has joined #lisp 18:16:43 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.213.204] has joined #lisp 18:17:41 Fade: what do pirates say when they look behind them? Ctrl-Arrrrr! 18:17:58 oh god, that's awful. 18:19:24 *Fade* chuckles 18:19:26 Fade: Despite missing yesterday's discussion, I find that link hilarious. 18:19:40 how do they explain eclipse users, eh? 18:19:56 or those people who insist on using the dubious editor that comes with their window manager 18:19:57 martians 18:20:03 (Kate, gedit et. al) 18:21:14 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B3BE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:18 notepad 18:21:31 jfm3 [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:21:39 anyuone using gedit really doesn't geddit, my opinion 18:21:56 no-one uses notepad, and I refuse to believe otherwise 18:21:57 urgh 18:21:57 http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/PLOT/ 18:22:00 the very idea 18:22:02 once you have kate obeying emacs command keys, it's adequate. 18:22:26 'course, i feel the same way about firefox. 18:22:36 -!- tombom_ [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 18:22:48 is david moon speaking right now? 18:22:51 Fade: I am apparently a Firefox ninja, as I use Vimperator to drive Firefox 18:22:55 Fade: yes. 18:22:55 Fade: yep 18:22:56 *rsynnott* worries that eventually the standard editor will be some javascript-driven firefox/chrome monstrosity 18:23:04 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@dhcp-18-111-20-88.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:23:07 man. wish I could be there. 18:23:09 I would still vote for any party proposing capital punishment for peopel who implement C-k but not C-y 18:23:22 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 18:23:23 i'd second that vote. 18:23:35 rsynnott: You know, even a big part of microsoft would join in a fight against such a thing 18:24:04 -!- aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:24:20 i've heard that there are clusters of hackers who actually feel strongly that the MS visual environment is the way and the path. 18:24:27 really? 18:24:32 I was never that impressed with it 18:24:42 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:24:45 now, i do have a natural tendency that such reports are just taking the piss, but it takes all kinds. 18:24:46 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B9D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:24:56 actually, some of the more hardcore and experienced people use ViM with MS products 18:25:13 what?! 18:25:14 s/that/to believe that 18:25:15 why? 18:25:39 engelzz [n=engelzz@p508E66E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:40 rich_holygoat: do you also use vim bindings in emacs? :) 18:25:42 -!- engelzz is now known as Russel 18:25:44 hiho 18:25:54 rsynnott: Vim works quite well on windows. MS was even listed as one of the biggest sources of donations done through ViM :) 18:25:59 or some vim-slime 18:26:26 It's #ilc2009, right? 18:27:15 moon: "alan kay is 10 times as smart as me" 18:27:15 that and #ilc09 18:27:19 people are doing both 18:27:30 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 18:27:34 (also that's on twitter, not IRC, just to be clear) 18:28:01 phadthai: when I use emacs, I do use Vim bindings. When I feel the need for Lisp integration, I use Limp or somesuch. 18:28:06 "The implmentation that I have is so bad that it doesn't even suck." 18:28:11 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@87.180.176.105] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:21 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:31 rich_holygoat: there are times when you don't feel the need for lisp integration? 18:28:36 heavens to betsy 18:29:14 i have a function (defun debug-output (string &rest args) (apply #'format *debug-io* string args)) and i want to add the time into this 18:29:21 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:30:03 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has left #lisp 18:30:09 i tried (defun debug-output (string &rest args) (apply #'format *debug-io* (concatenate 'string "[~a]" string) (cons (get-universal-time) args)) but it complains about the type of args 18:30:34 Asserted type LIST conflicts with derived type 18:30:35 ; (VALUES (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (*)) &OPTIONAL). 18:30:41 Fade: much of what I'm doing needs to be reproducible, so I spend a lot of time compiling or rebuilding. I rarely fall into that gap between "edit and fix: needs to be tested through rebuilds and test suite" and "just mucking around in a REPL". 18:31:49 <_3b> Russel: why not just print the time in a separate call to format? 18:32:20 i could do that 18:32:23 thanks 18:32:50 format is a macro.. 18:33:21 rich_holygoat: I used to operate like that, but with slime, modifying an image and keeping track of the changes is quite manageable, some might even say productive. 18:33:22 it is? 18:33:30 it's not? 18:33:37 Fade: nope. 18:33:38 Fade: could you please explain this a bit more? after all i am trying to learn something 18:33:39 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B9D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:41 <_3b> Russel: code you pasted works here though 18:33:51 Russel: it appears I'm very wrong. 18:34:39 tmh: I do do it; I just usually find that the advantage of editor integration is not as large as I expected. I'm mostly OK with vabCmd-CCmd-TabCmd-V! 18:35:25 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 18:35:33 that's likely due to the inadequacy of Vim Lisp plugins 18:35:46 Russel: but that function does work on my sbcl. 18:35:59 that is strange 18:36:25 but I'm unwilling to sacrifice my fingers to Emacs native bindings, and the Vim modes for Emacs are all 'leaky' (in the abstraction sense). 18:37:06 Awwww, but I'm kinda proud of nekthuth :P 18:37:09 Russel: which lisp are you using? 18:37:13 but thanks anyway for the simple hint to do it seperatly 18:37:19 <_3b> Russel: possibly you are calling it with some format string that depends on all of the arguments (which would be another reason not to do that) 18:37:38 sbcl 1.0.21 18:37:51 rich_holygoat: The significance of "vabCmd-CCmd-TabCmd-V!" is totally lost on me. I modify the code in the lisp file, C-c C-c to update the active toplevel form. When names change, I use MAKUNBOUND and FMAKUNBOUNDP to keep things straight. 18:38:18 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:38:24 cads [n=max@adsl-154-105-103.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:31 _3b: i don't do it conscious at least 18:38:31 tmh: that's just the "very quickly copy the entire s-expression and paste it into the repl" command I use :) 18:39:33 rich_holygoat: Ah. Well, by forcing myself to modify my image instead of SLIME-RESTART-INFERIOR-LISP all of the time, I've gotten a much handle on symbols and packages. 18:39:40 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-013-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:21 <_3b> good to see that avoiding emacs really does help cut down on the excessivly long key combinations :) 18:40:27 heh 18:40:28 rich_holygoat: When it's time to commit changes to my repository, though. I load everything into a fresh image just to verify that all of the changes were recorded. 18:41:25 _3b: Is the tab key too long? :-P 18:41:39 -!- v0|d [n=user@a.ns.core.gen.tr] has left #lisp 18:41:49 mostly I just find that fiddling with text is much more efficient in Vim, and I find myself doing sysadminny stuff more often than I'd like, so Emacs isn't for me. 18:42:10 is anyone else being driven insane by the tapping? 18:42:12 I just consider emacs a lisp IDE and use it for nothing else 18:42:15 vim is what i use for sysadmining and adhoc file editing 18:42:21 but emacs for programming 18:42:34 using vim in general and emacs+slime for common lisp here 18:42:40 although I should try out viper-mode or so 18:42:50 vim and cscope for C coding 18:42:55 (for *improving* said lisp IDE) 18:43:00 heh 18:43:08 rich_holygoat: Oh, well, if we're talking about updating system files, I generally use vi in that case. I have some transition problems, sometimes, though. 18:43:11 surprising number of pirate/ninja combos 18:43:23 tmh: heh, I can imagine 18:43:33 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:38 yeah, we lispers are balanced people ;) 18:43:47 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:43:51 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:43:57 i used to use vi[m] for casual config file editing, but I was forever hitting c- so I just install zile or jed everywhere i don't have an ssh key setup for tramp. 18:44:12 after switching to dvorak i've used vim less. for sysadmining you never have the config files available to get home row working 18:44:33 so it's a loss :( 18:44:37 eh, I've never used either editor with anything *but* dvorak 18:44:44 so I don't feel the loss 18:45:02 ianmcorvidae: you have home row configured in vimrc? 18:45:11 nope 18:45:22 I just use hjkl where they are on dvorak 18:45:27 okay 18:45:29 and so forth 18:45:39 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:46:02 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCDB9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:38 i learned emacs at the same time with dvorak and ended up having a quite customized setup 18:46:38 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:38 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-41becba159652ca4] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:47:18 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 18:47:38 as an emacs using lisp loving unrecovered sysadmin, my life on the margins is hard enough w/out going to a totally marginal keymap. 18:47:41 lol 18:47:58 hah 18:48:46 *p_l* is looking for unrecovery 18:48:46 -!- Russel [n=engelzz@p508E66E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:48:55 the marshall talk is neat but a little bit sad too -- that so much effort is wasted on the jvm and clr 18:49:28 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:50:09 heh, I didn't even notice that 18:50:12 <_3b> what's it about? 18:50:51 implementing continuations on the jvm without exceptions 18:50:52 Fade: yeah, i opted for the marginal keymap too ;) 18:50:54 or on the clr 18:50:55 (my comment was about whatever annoying tapping noise some people appear to be hearing) 18:51:01 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-23-1.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:04 ah 18:51:22 ianmcorvidae: yes although now that I notice, it is a little irritating ;) 18:51:34 heh yeah, there it is 18:51:54 <_3b> ah, sounds interesting 18:52:12 <_3b> don't think i'm going to try any continuations in avm2 for now :p 18:52:50 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:53:20 http://eval.apply.googlepages.com/stackhack4.html 18:54:10 oh, hah, I missed that he was using Google Chrome 18:54:24 someone probably put their wristwatch down next to a microphone somewhere 18:54:30 probably 18:55:51 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 18:56:21 _3b: hopefully the avm2 guys will come to their senses and add synchronous versions of some of the troublesome methods anyway 18:56:49 KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:57:16 <_3b> lichtblau: yeah, hopefully i can get to the point of running into that sort of problem soon :) 18:57:22 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 18:57:32 (I mean, waiting for the next event loop iteration to load code from a byte array already in memory?! how silly is that.) 18:58:19 -!- jfm3 [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:40 <_3b> wonder if any of the alchemy stuff could help with that? sounded like it had a slightly different setup from normal flash... not that i ever bothered to find any details 18:59:02 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:00:26 ... hey, I think the tapping stopped 19:01:01 hooray! 19:01:07 I think they switched audio channels 19:01:18 aww, I was going to guess he had a pocket watch :P 19:01:27 that's probably more reasonable, though 19:02:23 jfm3 [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 19:03:25 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:40 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:08:51 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:12:44 bsummersett [n=bsummers@c-98-209-19-237.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:20 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:11 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:19:11 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has quit [] 19:19:13 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-013-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:39 i am nodding off. 19:19:47 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:04 ah, code. 19:21:33 dump 19:21:46 Sorry. My IRC session is acting up 19:23:23 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 19:25:19 Hi all. I'm doing an assignment using SGP (http://www.cs.washington.edu/ai/sgp.html) for my AI class and have never used Lisp before. Is there a good, brief Lisp guide I can look at to get a feel for the syntax/idioms of the language quickly? My knowledge of other programming languages is pretty good. 19:25:38 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E209.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:13 minion: please tell bsummersett about that-dead-sexy-book 19:26:14 bsummersett: please look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:26:52 bsummersett: it's a book, but you can always skim. 19:27:39 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:27:44 <_death> bsummersett: check out http://p-cos.net/lisp/guide.html 19:28:53 thanks. Our professor recommended Allegro; do I have to use that or can I use can dialect? If I can use any, do you have any dialect recommendations for a beginner? 19:29:02 *any dialect 19:29:05 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A49E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:19 bsummersett: if you're doing reasonably simple stuff, any old common lisp should probably be fine 19:29:30 <_3b> check the docs of you app for that 19:29:36 unless your professor wishes you to use the loathed and feared modern mode :) 19:29:43 <_3b> sbcl and ccl are popular in this channel 19:30:06 (does anyone else support 'modern mode'?) 19:31:09 thanks everyone. 19:32:34 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 19:34:08 any lispbuilder devs around? 19:34:44 bsummersett: clisp is pretty lightweight, too, and pretty nice to just mess around on the command line with. 19:36:01 <_3b> sykopomp: Balooga shows up here once in a while, might be faster to ask on the list though 19:36:01 -!- sellout- [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 19:37:35 yeah, I might do that 19:37:37 <_3b> sykopomp: and just to make sure, you arge getting lispbuilder-sdl stuff off the code.google.com site, not the old one, right? 19:37:37 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f53a0.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:37:43 yes, I am 19:37:52 would you happen to know if the mixer is supposed to work at all? 19:38:21 <_3b> no idea, beyond having seen stuff on the list about audio stuff being rewritten to work on win32 a while back 19:39:37 bleh 19:40:00 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:40:44 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 19:43:22 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:59 -!- woopdeedoo [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:46:27 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.213.204] has quit [] 19:48:05 kmcorbett [n=Keith@dhcp-18-111-20-88.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 19:49:10 dcjackson [n=dcj@nat02.service.sv2.tellme.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:22 antgreen [n=green@CPE0013f7bcd3c0-CM0013f7bcd3bc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:41 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:52:56 stassats [n=stassats@ppp89-110-55-3.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:53:48 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:54:17 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-11-36.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:54 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 19:56:08 cl-xuanwu [n=xuanwu@rogue.cs.indiana.edu] has joined #lisp 19:59:19 i've a function that gets a variable number of parameters through &rest args, i'd like to call it tail-recursively, therefore i call the same function with (rest args), but this gives me a list that &rest converts to another list... 19:59:52 the correct way to solve this is calling recursively with apply #'fn ? 20:00:33 it works, but not sure it's the 'proper' way to do it 20:01:01 <_3b> possibly move the recursive bit to a LABELS and pass the &rest list to it directly? 20:01:33 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 20:02:12 _3b: hmmm, yes, good point 20:02:41 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 20:05:24 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 20:06:01 much better now :) 20:06:45 I updated slime to CVS head. Now part of the output appears in *inferior-lisp*. It used to show up in the repl. 20:06:57 Is this a known problem? 20:08:04 <_3b> abeaumont: don't forget that tail-recursive might not improve stack usage in CL if that is the goal 20:09:05 _3b: no, it just fitted perfectly in a tail recursive function 20:10:11 cirquitz [n=cirquitz@59.164.144.74] has joined #lisp 20:10:11 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:10:22 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-19-94.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:29 moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 20:11:20 kami-: hmmm, isn't *inferior-lisp* the repl? 20:11:46 <_3b> no, repl is separate (but optional now) 20:12:04 abeaumont: I have a buffer *slime-repl* and one *inferior-lisp* 20:13:30 _3b: what do you mean by 'optional now'? slime without a repl? 20:13:34 kami-: oh, i don't have any *slime-repl* buffer with slime's cvs... 20:13:52 <_3b> kami-: yes, slime repl is a contrib now 20:14:39 <_3b> abeaumont: use (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in .emacs 20:15:05 _3b: I just checked my .emacs. I must have added slime-repl to my slime-setup somehow. 20:15:24 It reads: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf slime-tramp slime-repl inferior-slime)) 20:15:45 <_3b> slime-fancy should load the repl, don't need to load it separately 20:15:52 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@dhcp-18-111-20-88.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:15:55 <_3b> (unless it has changed again) 20:16:15 Is there a way of making the inferior-lisp output appear in slime-repl (too) 20:16:17 ? 20:16:30 <_3b> is the problem output from other threads? 20:16:46 It's annoying to switch buffers just to see whether there is something being logged. 20:17:16 open a frame containing the inferior lisp? 20:17:36 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-4633.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:17:58 <_3b> try (setf swank:*globally-redirect-io* t) before connecting (in ~/.swank.lisp for example) 20:18:05 _3b: yes, it's likely that it's from another thread. I'm using cl-dwim and it logs stuff when processing requests (in its own thread) 20:18:46 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:59 kmcorbett [n=Keith@dhcp-18-111-20-88.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 20:21:33 _3b: I put that in my .swank.lisp but the result is the same as before. 20:21:42 _death: have you tried the patch? 20:22:28 pjb`: ping 20:23:19 <_3b> kami-: you reconnected or restarted slime/swank after adding that? 20:24:01 _3b: yes. stopped emacs, restarted from scratch 20:24:31 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:26 <_3b> kami-: hmm, don't know then 20:25:38 <_death> mega1: I planned on doing that later today 20:25:46 ok 20:25:50 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:26:02 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has quit [] 20:26:06 _3b: thank you for your help. 20:27:12 holy crap this one is great! 20:28:03 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:28:06 haha, yeah 20:29:06 <_3b> so what are we missing out on this time? :) 20:29:39 a great talk on the history of macros 20:29:43 lightning talk 20:30:35 Is there a video of that? 20:30:53 <_3b> sounds interesting (more interesting than debugging avm2 assembly at least :) 20:30:53 there's video being taken 20:30:56 should be 20:30:59 Nice! 20:31:07 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@dhcp-18-111-20-88.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 20:31:10 I certainly hope it gets posted, anyway 20:31:40 "Don't be afraid, they can sense your fear and they will fuck you up." -- m. greenberg 20:31:50 He said that about macros that wrote macros. 20:32:06 26 slides in 5 minutes 20:32:19 hehe jfm3 20:32:21 that was indeed a very epic talk 20:32:21 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 20:32:28 <_3b> heh, compilers don't care if you are afraid or not :p 20:32:33 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:32:39 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:36:44 kent pitman kinda looks like liono 20:37:16 I hear he does have sight beyond sight, so that would seem to follow. 20:37:25 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:38:01 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 20:39:24 -!- cirquitz [n=cirquitz@59.164.144.74] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:40:36 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@dhcp-18-111-20-88.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:42:49 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:12 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@94-225-15-176.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:48:16 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-013-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:49:36 -!- kreuter [i=kreuter@dhcp-18-111-8-130.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:49:59 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@dhcp-18-111-20-88.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:51:18 "language is a dialect with an army" 20:51:34 yep... straight out of modern linguistics 20:51:47 also, true 20:52:34 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:54:16 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:54:39 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:48 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A49E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:56:01 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56:54 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host53-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 21:01:15 "if i had it to do all over again, i wouldn't do language standards, i would do data standards" -- pitman 21:01:38 He's editorializing more than he probably should. 21:01:48 yeah 21:02:12 *wingo-tp* applauded the "jvm + clr should die" assertion of pascal's 21:02:23 yeah, indeed 21:02:26 *ianmcorvidae* too 21:02:40 also, how would a lisp compiler that targets clr solve this supposed "looks like lisp data" problem? 21:02:44 is there some weird limit as to how much you're allowed to fit in a hash table?... I'm completely clueless as to what could be causing this bug I'm running into. 21:03:30 jfm3: maybe if you treat compiled code as data... 21:03:52 wingo-tp: I guess, but that's not what he seemed to be talking about. 21:04:34 I'd like it if he asked "is free/open source good or bad for lisp?" It would be interesting to hear the panelists do that one, I think. 21:04:56 oh, yeah 21:04:59 you should ask that if/when he opens the panel for questions 21:05:00 ejs [n=eugen@100-114-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:19 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@94-225-15-176.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 21:05:56 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:06:25 not sure what that question will accomplish, unless you're going to throw out every panelist who doesn't answer "fuck yeah" 21:06:38 vasa, why should jvm+clr die? hm. 21:06:48 interesting message to read when joining 21:06:49 ask who, pitman? pascal? either way we know the answer, no? 21:06:52 ilc going well? 21:07:00 s/vasa/wingo 21:07:06 Well, I think that some of the panelists to our right will answer "foss is killing lisp" which might spark an interesting debate. 21:07:10 yep; we're discussing the panel session that's going on right now 21:07:36 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:38 psyllo [n=psyllo@cpe-76-168-0-196.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:46 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 21:07:57 Krystof: seven guys talking about the future of lisp 21:08:03 hm. there a live feed? 21:08:04 ow 21:08:09 is any of them under 40? 21:08:11 the rest of day was pretty cool though 21:08:16 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:31 "i've come to see standardization as one big mutex over the entire community" -- pitman 21:08:38 "it seems like a recipe for deadlock" 21:08:48 um... the guy who made Clojure might be that young; not sure 21:09:07 one single mutex is not often the cause of a deadlock (: 21:09:12 There are at least three panelists under 40. 21:09:14 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 21:09:21 30? (-: 21:09:21 wingo-tp: analogies can be bad :) 21:09:35 (Krystof doesn't get to ask that anymore, I guess (-:) 21:09:40 *ducks, runs* 21:09:40 guaqua: tell it to pitman ;) 21:09:40 Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:09:41 at least rick is down there, the only one of them actually doing something about it. plus edi, who is shaping the future of lisp through libraries, which counts a lot, I think 21:09:57 antifuchs: bah 21:10:05 yep. big thumb for edi 21:10:15 Krystof: worry not, in 3 years I'll be ancient, too 21:10:42 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:11:03 zing to pascal 21:11:07 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:11:29 <_death> anyone doing transcriptions over there? :) 21:11:34 this is it ;) 21:11:39 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:11:46 yeah, we're quoting speakers out of context here. 21:11:59 so, rich hickey, kent pitman, pascal costanza, edi... who are the others? 21:12:08 ravi something (a haskeller) 21:12:10 there's rumor there's a video somehow. Don't know if it's streamed or will be available later or what. 21:12:11 Scott Mckay 21:12:11 the dylan guy 21:12:13 yes 21:12:15 Alan Bawden 21:12:20 alan bawden 21:12:21 don't forget duane 21:12:24 yeah 21:12:48 that doesn't sound too utterly terrible 21:12:56 duane was the one pointing that lisp development actually -hasn't- stalled, which is a very good point, I think 21:13:02 it's at least mostly the _present_ of lisp 21:13:18 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:26 the opening comments, at least, were mostly future-centered 21:13:40 duane: "why don't we just use allegro as the standard" ;-) 21:14:12 I'm not brazen enough or I would have yelled out SBCL as a standard to add into that chaos :P 21:14:17 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:22 "sure, as long as the reference implementation is freely usable and available" 21:14:40 heh 21:14:44 hasn't Lisp development actually speed up the last decade, in terms of libraries and compilers? 21:15:01 how do you measure that? 21:15:32 Krystof, available libraries and sbcl, I guess. and intarweb + irc. 21:15:36 *wingo-tp* not interested in pythony arguments 21:15:37 actually my biggest problem are the implementations. you can't use ccl well on a shared system and sbcl has it's problems too. 21:15:59 if there is a memory limit, it's all going to hell :( 21:16:09 there is? 21:16:14 pkhuong: you did a shift/reset via conditions somewhere, right? 21:16:15 tic: sbcl is younger than decade 21:16:35 tic: The point was made that there are over 200 attendees to ilc09, only 128 at ilc07. There is also obvious library growth, that point was made too. 21:16:40 definitely *within* the last decade, though 21:16:49 stassats, that's what I'm saying. 21:17:09 jfm3, alright! we're talking. :) 21:17:16 Personally, I don't think there's any correlation between popularity and worthiness. Number of users isn't a particularly useful metric. 21:17:18 jfm3, although, ilc09 was a bit cheaper though. 21:17:33 as a new learner of common lisp, no? 21:17:41 jfm3, worthiness, maybe not (see Blub), but it sure helps. 21:17:47 *tic* makes wild references to Eddie Izzard 21:17:53 the number of attendees is a lousy point 21:18:35 number of people for ILC in UK ./. ILC in USA seems like a particularly useless comparison 21:18:36 given the conferences being on different continents, and all 21:19:11 yeah: cheaper and sitting in the middle of a rather bustling lisp community (see for reference: boston lisp meetings) 21:19:18 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f53a0.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:19 oh yes, I wanted to ask: are the conference badges any good? 21:19:29 good in what way? 21:19:47 Krystof: They're standard issue conference badges. 3x5 with your name on it. 21:19:57 well that sucks 21:20:05 badges were way cooler at ILC07 21:20:08 lisp is clearly in decline 21:20:18 haha 21:20:29 Krystof: indubitably! 21:20:41 Krystof: Unassailable logic. I tip my cap to you, sir. 21:21:02 feel free to use that point in the questions 21:21:06 god, the flowers-blooming metaphor is getting tiring already 21:21:16 http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/defperson.lisp 21:21:20 and I'm sure the room isn't done with it yet 21:21:26 it was negative in its first usage, no> 21:21:28 ? 21:21:49 no, Alan Bawden used it in a positive sense 21:22:08 housel: oh, you're here, too? 21:22:10 http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/226950.html 21:22:35 Yes (far right wall, halfway down) 21:22:59 yall want to dinner? 21:23:00 I'm the kid who just turned around and looked at you, housel 21:23:01 heh 21:23:13 pascal has a lovely soothing tone 21:23:33 oh hey, look, # ilc07 name badges 21:23:47 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-20-9.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:47 (I'd be interested in dinner) 21:24:00 "you americans are so wierd, why do you talk about the numbers so much, you need quality, not quantity" -- pascal 21:24:22 Krystof: covet. 21:24:30 see? decline. 21:24:43 (incf pascal). 21:24:58 4 women out of 200 "what are we doing to keep them away?" 21:25:14 and then "raise your hands, ladies" 21:25:16 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:25:28 programmers should not pretend they understand marketing 21:25:29 a poorly put rant 21:25:34 (apparently I'm just an exception to all manner of rules about the lisp community, heh) 21:26:19 ianmcorvidae: i am 4 rows up from the front, in the center, right in front of the speaker 21:26:21 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:26:30 silas428 [n=reader@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:57 ooh, question about open source 21:26:58 What are some good lisp projects a noob can get into?? 21:27:40 silas428: people like clojure :) 21:27:51 silas428: write a wrapper for a library :) 21:27:53 silas428: Write manuals for other noobs. Check out the Common Lisp Cookbook. 21:28:12 http://www.cliki.net/Suggested%20Programming%20Projects 21:28:23 jfm3: that's bad idea .. newbs should not be writing for newbs.. it's like the blind leading the blind! 21:29:07 Can any of these be done in Elisp? 21:29:33 silas428: rather not? :D 21:29:42 silas428: :) No, #emacs is over there ---> 21:29:58 silas428: well, they can be, but you are in a channel dedicated to *Common* Lisp 21:30:08 wingo-tp: you the one on the left or the right in the fifth row? 21:30:11 I thought it was dedicated to clojure 21:30:13 my mistake 21:30:21 ianmcorvidae: the right 21:30:22 Krystof: that's #clojure :) 21:30:37 p_l: oh, thought this was dedicated to all lisp =) 21:30:39 k 21:30:46 does that mean I can kick people who wirter on about how marvellous clojure is? Excellent 21:31:05 Krystof: that's comp.lang.lisp, now all-clojure-trolls all the time. 21:31:11 I know, I still read it 21:31:16 it's funny 21:31:22 I read it for approximately two weeks and then left 21:31:24 silas428: well, most other lisps have their own channels or are too ridiculous... :P 21:31:37 because it was 50% clojure, and the other half was pornspam 21:31:46 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:31:51 (for the record: I have no objection to clojure discussion here, within reason) 21:31:58 p_l: I think I only have an intro book on common lisp, but have a reference for Elisp 21:32:11 "it could be the coolest thing about clojure is that it doesn't have l i s p in its name" 21:32:11 minion: tell silas428 about pcl 21:32:12 silas428: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:32:13 -pitman 21:32:21 do tell 21:32:22 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:32:30 drewc: Thanks 21:32:40 wingo-tp: wow, that's immensely damning 21:32:42 evenin' 21:32:46 okay, kreuter said his bit, I think its going to go all downhill from here 21:32:59 ouch 21:33:00 Krystof: yeah i guess it is! 21:33:01 see you all later at macro debate time 21:33:18 later 21:33:58 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 21:34:15 -!- jfm3 [n=user@dhcp-18-190-22-203.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:34:50 *housel* goes to dinner in Harvard Square with his wife 21:34:55 ciao 21:35:05 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:35:52 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-4633.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:36:26 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-013-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:55 -!- ejs [n=eugen@100-114-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:37:39 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:37:58 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:38:24 what was kreuter's bit? 21:38:42 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E209.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:39:21 Hey. I think I may have found a case of insufficient parallelism. 21:39:42 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@nat02.service.sv2.tellme.com] has quit [] 21:39:48 This should take 9+ seconds. With no parallelism it takes 45. In practice, it's about 30. 21:40:24 ok 21:40:45 ,(map #(future (Thread/sleep (* 1000 %)) %) (range 10)) 21:40:56 30 seconds to display, that is... since the REPL evaluates the future. 21:40:58 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:40:59 It should only take 9. 21:41:34 it this common lisp? 21:41:35 ``Erik___ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:58 Sorry. How'd I end up here? 21:42:06 act of god 21:42:10 My apologies. Thought I was in #clojure 21:42:28 swank has a timeout? I get disconnected with the message "close-connection: Timeout occurred. ..." in inferior-lisp 21:42:28 kefka: It's a sign I tells ya. 21:44:24 -!- KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:45:08 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 21:45:16 jao [i=jao@dhcp-18-190-9-87.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 21:45:48 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:27 -!- ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:11 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-54-64.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 21:49:53 how can I manipulate swank's timeout if I know that the next function will take long to return? 21:50:37 swank doesn't have such timeout 21:50:38 kami-: look at SWANK-BACKEND:SET-STREAM-TIMEOUT 21:51:56 hah, stassats you're right :-) 21:52:10 -!- badkins [n=user@adsl-068-209-204-112.sip.rdu.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:52:24 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:15 rstandy: what do I give set-stream-timeout for the stream argument? 21:54:04 kami-: that function in my source just returns NIL 21:54:39 :) 21:54:41 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:54:42 anyway grepping "timeout" in the slime sources gives lots of matches 21:55:02 -!- silas428 [n=reader@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:55:29 your error says "close-connection:" 21:55:47 which means that it occured while executing that function 21:55:55 kami-: I'm a CL newbie, trying to learn, so take my assertions with care ;-) 21:56:36 kami-: anyway, now that I look carefully, that function is an interface 21:56:54 kami-: and it seems like any backend implements it's version 21:59:02 kami-: you probably have issues with character encoding.. that will usually cause slime to close the socket and give you that error. 21:59:17 stassats: I just looked in *inferior-lisp* and there is a huge stack trace. 21:59:39 -!- ``Erik___ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:52 rstandy: if you are a newbie and don't know the answer to the questions, it'd be better to refrain from attempting to answer them rather than adding to the confusion :). 21:59:57 bombshelter13p [n=bombshel@24.114.234.1] has joined #lisp 22:00:26 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483CAC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:00:42 -!- bombshelter13p [n=bombshel@24.114.234.1] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00:47 <_3b> is there some trick to get emacs to indent ` expressions reasonably? 22:00:48 drewc: well, I was trying to help, trying to learn ;-) 22:00:59 -!- jao [i=jao@dhcp-18-190-9-87.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:01:30 drewc: I have run this function at least 10 times with the same output. I wonder what might have changed the behaviour of slime. 22:02:56 hmm. maybe (setf swank:*globally-redirect-io* t) in my .swank.lisp 22:03:23 Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:06:42 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-134-213.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:10 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:03 ejs [n=eugen@113-128-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:19 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:11:03 -!- ejs [n=eugen@113-128-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:12:05 just for the records: it was *globally-redirect-io* which made slime disconnect 22:12:20 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:12:32 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:26 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.72] has joined #lisp 22:14:10 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 22:16:08 good night 22:16:40 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has left #lisp 22:17:20 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:26 chris2_ [n=chris@p5B1688D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:18:13 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-133-68.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:18:16 -!- stassats [n=stassats@ppp89-110-55-3.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:19:50 -!- cl-xuanwu [n=xuanwu@rogue.cs.indiana.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:20:00 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:08 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:09 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.32] has joined #lisp 22:22:16 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.72] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:24:47 -!- chris2 [n=chris@91.22.166.9] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:25:08 stassats [n=stassats@ppp89-110-55-3.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 22:25:18 <_3b> yay, (dotimes (x 1) (dotimes (y 1))) doesn't confuse flash anymore :) 22:25:37 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:25:49 _3b: parenscript? 22:26:00 <_3b> drewc: my own compiler 22:26:38 _3b: cool! is it a cl->actionscript or more of a sexp-for-ecmascript? 22:27:04 <_3b> cl(approximately) -> avm2 bytecode 22:27:20 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 22:28:54 _3b: very cool indeed! 22:29:18 <_3b> more potentially cool at this point, but getting there :) 22:29:54 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:30:05 ``Erik___ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:24 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:52 <_3b> been rewriting the compiler to allow it to handle more complicated flow control, and it is starting to be able to compile useful things 22:31:08 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 22:31:41 <_3b> closures, non-local exits, nested loops, stuff like that :) 22:31:43 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-241.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:32:05 sounds like fun :) 22:32:14 -!- ``Erik___ is now known as ``Erk 22:32:16 -!- ``Erk is now known as ``Erik 22:32:55 <_3b> the tacked on inline assembly even ended up working out fairly nicely, the pseudo opcode to compile some lisp code and embed the results in the asm it is embedding in the code it is compiling is fun :) 22:35:27 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:35:42 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-217.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 22:35:53 Is there a type which means (<= 0 x) ? 22:36:03 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["leaving"] 22:36:14 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 22:36:38 <_3b> is that unsigned-byte ? 22:36:42 tomoyuki28jp: (real 0) 22:36:54 <_3b> ah yeah, forgot about non-integral types 22:37:23 Krystof: thanks! 22:39:52 anyone having trouble with clbuild lately? 22:40:01 _3b pasted "fun with inline assembly with inline lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77491 22:41:19 chris2__ [n=chris@p5B168602.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:43:33 -!- stassats [n=stassats@ppp89-110-55-3.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:44:28 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:58 what's this clbuild ? 22:46:04 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:46:28 stassats [n=stassats@ppp89-110-55-3.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 22:46:49 sepult: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=clbuild 22:49:08 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@p5B1688D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:49:34 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:53:27 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:54:16 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:17 btw, I might end up writing a low-level networking lib for CL, depending on GSoC 22:55:18 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:55:56 hunchentoot used to be able to be started with hunchentoot:start-server, and it'd return a server object. That seems to be gone. What's it been replaced with? 22:56:24 http://www.weitz.de/hunchentoot/ 22:56:31 read documentation 22:57:26 <_3b> wonder what random # generator flash player uses 22:57:51 <_3b> seems a bit slow 22:57:55 Okay, it's not jumping out immediately, but how do I make it return a server object? 22:58:09 I just updated, it broke what I had 22:59:11 <_3b> ah, never mind, i guess y measurement overhead is too high to test it :/ 22:59:19 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-20-9.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:59:53 ChibaPet [n=mason@64.206.6.254] has joined #lisp 23:00:36 ChibaPet pasted "help me stop crying" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77495 23:00:41 *_3b* needs to add type declarations, see if that speeds things up any 23:00:58 p_l: why would you want to do that instead of working on, say, IOLib? 23:00:58 ChibaPet: (defvar *ht* (make-hash-table) :test #'equal) 23:01:18 does it default to eq? 23:01:20 drewc: low-level access to network protocols, for debugging purposes 23:01:24 to (eq) ? 23:01:25 ChibaPet: to eql 23:01:29 ChibaPet: it's in the docs : 23:01:37 clhs make-hash-table 23:01:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm 23:01:50 drewc: one of my proposals is for AoE driver for NetBSD 23:01:57 ah, cool, thank you 23:02:06 drewc: I'd like to have a test framework to batter it 23:02:14 p_l: ah i see. 23:02:29 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-013-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:02:38 drewc: plus, it might be reusable shall someone want to write a Lisp OS :P 23:03:21 p_l: didn't we get a tcp/ip stack for movitz last year? 23:03:37 Anyone here attending ILC? 23:03:51 drewc: I'm going to work at ethernet level for this one, from tap devices 23:03:51 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0013f7bcd3c0-CM0013f7bcd3bc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 23:04:03 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:04:11 p_l: sounds like fun! 23:04:39 drewc: of course the project itself involves writing kernel mode code :) 23:05:17 -!- stassats [n=stassats@ppp89-110-55-3.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:07:32 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-235-227.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:08:35 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-159-16.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:09:44 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-4-162.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:21 lichtblau: commonqt screenshots on macos: http://myblog.rsynnott.com/2009/03/macos-fun-with-commonqt-qt-for-common.html 23:14:01 <_3b> rsynnott: might be nicer to have the apple version image closer to the others for easier comparison for us non-macos types :) 23:15:08 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:15:19 Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:16:35 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:16:58 "And here is the same app running with style set to the rather hideous Motif-alike" 23:17:11 _3b: good idea :) 23:17:17 antifuchs: well, it is :P 23:17:26 my nodding in agreement is making this building vibrate 23:17:36 alarmingly 23:17:49 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:03 the likeness is good, but it is still missing a bit of hideousness. 23:18:12 text fields, for instance, need one more layer of padding 23:18:29 it isn't quite as bad as Motif's worst excesses, certainly 23:18:32 I demand Xt style! 23:18:35 crod [n=cmell@x250009.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:18:46 (it seems the Aqua one is the only one implemented using native stuff) 23:19:01 there's also a lovely mock-windows-95 one 23:19:19 (real windows users get proper WinXP stuff through win32, looks like) 23:19:39 heh. the default button is missing two layers of padding, even 23:19:40 rsynnott: I wonder if future Qt versions will use WPF 23:20:13 possibly 23:20:29 it looks like the macos one is in the process of changing to Cocoa 23:20:36 (current one is carbon-based) 23:20:54 despite the fact that you have to go through CLR (it might be possible to avoid it, but it would duplicate a lot of code), WPF is still superior to old GDI 23:21:20 has anyone gotten this going on Windows yet, actually? 23:22:02 <_3b> p_l: heh, that made me think that some nice xt style box with half circles on the ends buttons would be fun, then i looked at the osx screenshot again... 23:22:44 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@172.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:23:31 (blogger messed up the indentation horribly) 23:23:56 jao [i=jao@dhcp-18-190-9-87.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 23:24:28 -!- psyllo [n=psyllo@cpe-76-168-0-196.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:24:54 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250005.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:30:43 chris2_ [n=chris@p5B168466.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:33:07 that's a nice little tutorial post rsynnott 23:34:44 thanks 23:35:05 *rsynnott* is very impressed with commonqt 23:35:10 me too 23:35:21 all it needs is more marshalling/unmarshalling stuff 23:35:27 which is easy enough 23:35:32 we should send lichtblau beer. 23:35:34 can be added as you go along more or less 23:35:45 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:36:39 heh 23:36:47 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:37:51 finally opens up the possibility of easily writing multiplatform GUI apps 23:37:57 assuming it works properly on windows 23:38:07 yeah 23:38:19 I've no reason to think it wouldn't, but wouldn't have the first clue how to build the C/C++ dependencies there 23:38:20 'course, windows is the only platform I don't actually have to worry about 23:38:32 -!- chris2__ [n=chris@p5B168602.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:42 ChibaPet pasted "this is ugly" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77497 23:38:52 i think the kde project has a binary installer for kde on windows. 23:38:58 So, other than using loop there, what am I doing wrong? It works, but it's clearly not right. 23:39:02 i guess you could just run that and accept the rest of kde as baggage. 23:39:37 I'm seeking the simplest way to get a list of hash keys. 23:39:43 on macos, it should be possible to make clickable 'apps' 23:39:57 using clozure? 23:40:16 (loop for k being the hash-key of my-hash-table collect k) 23:40:26 Also, that gives me compiler warnings because I'm not using "value" for instance, but I'm not sure how to say "I don't care" - like, the Erlang _ 23:40:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:40:55 I guess I can pick out what I want and cons it together for my result, but anyway... 23:41:04 Fade: easier there , also possible with sbcl, though you'd have to make the 'application' thing manually there 23:41:04 <_3b> (declare (ignore value)) 23:41:18 <_3b> or just don't bind it if it is the last value in a m-v-b 23:41:34 hm, didn't know just not binding was okay 23:41:53 yeah, that works 23:41:53 with clozure, should just have to copy the relevant QT frameworks plus the two dylibs into the app's private framework directory 23:42:12 and you've got a completely standalone (though rather big) application 23:42:22 Other than my using do instead of loop, though, is my approach right? It doesn't feel right, but I'm not sure how to do it. 23:42:38 with windows, I suspect it would be a case of a directory full of dlls 23:43:06 *nod* 23:43:16 jonathon [n=user@c-69-242-62-236.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:27 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 23:43:33 <_3b> ChibaPet: loop or maphash would probably be more readable 23:43:52 ok, sb-mop was very helpful. But is there a way to get the list of slots from a class name, rather than an instance? 23:44:02 *rsynnott* wonders where the 'being the' thing came from 23:44:11 does clozure have a tree shaker? 23:44:43 <_3b> rsynnott: needing different ways to say each type of clause for easier parsing? 23:45:19 jonathon: find-class 23:45:40 Fade: nope 23:45:47 think lispworks is still the only one 23:46:16 though a clozure app with cocoa stuff (the currency converter again!) compresses to 9mb or so for the 64bit version, so it's not too bad 23:46:29 <_3b> or maybe i'm thinking of something else, and someone just wnated to be verbose :) 23:46:33 there was some naive tree shaker for sbcl once 23:46:53 if you google it, you might find it. It's very naive and probably won't work, though :-) 23:47:01 did it break things, or just not reduce size interestingly? 23:47:25 I don't think big app sizes are such a problem anymore, though, what with modern internet connections 23:47:35 rsynnott: I don't know, by the time I found it, it didn't compile anymore 23:48:02 rsynnott: memory always matters, IMHO 23:48:06 milanj: Perfect, thanks. 23:48:09 -!- jonathon [n=user@c-69-242-62-236.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:49:01 rsynnott: I understand the compromise of not having a tree shaker, but I don't like assumption that current memory sizes or internet connection or anything else (CPU/IO/whatever) makes it unnecessary to lower resource usage 23:49:37 presumably, though, the unused bits will either never get loaded to memory in the first place, or can be swapped out as necessary 23:50:03 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 23:50:29 rsynnott: yes, but the attitude is IMHO bad, it leads to horrible resource usage since many application writers seem not to understand they are not the only app running 23:50:55 probably the only option lisp programmers have for the time being, though 23:51:01 or at least non lispworks users 23:51:31 for the kind of stuff I'm doing with Lisp right now, it doesn't matter, as it's mostly about server-side (I'm playing a little with weblocks when I have time), so I'm the one controlling resources... 23:51:49 but I really hate it when FF becomes the biggest memory hog of all time 23:52:20 *rsynnott* avoids firefox 23:52:33 (except for firebug, occasionally) 23:52:51 ChibaPet annotated #77497 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77497#1 23:53:16 Alright, that's cleaner, but for what I want to do, is it optimal? Having to push from within the lambda I'm giving maphash seems inelegant somehow. 23:53:57 aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:06 rsynnott: well, it's the only browser that has all functionality I want... 23:54:07 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-54-64.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:48 <_3b> ChibaPet: seems reasonable, if you don't like the LOOP version. you don't need the #' there though 23:56:05 any weblocks users loitering? I'm trying to figure out how to render a dataform-like widget in a dialog and depending on the user input, render its child-widgets 23:57:02 <_3b> ChibaPet: or you could use alexandria:hash-table-keys 23:57:24 <_3b> ChibaPet: which looks like it is implemented basically the same way 23:57:51 hm 23:58:02 -!- jao [i=jao@dhcp-18-190-9-87.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:58:58 hm, weird - so, I can feed maphash a lambda that doesn't take two arguments? I just sort of implicitly assumed that would generate an error. 23:59:41 I assumed there'd be signature checking, I guess. 23:59:52 <_3b> if you are looking at alexandria, it calls a helper function