00:00:20 *stassats* installed commonqt 00:03:45 looks nice indeed 00:04:54 anyone here trying with GSoC 2009? :) 00:06:34 it doesn't seem like there's anything for lisp this year, though 00:07:20 p_l: SIMD-oriented Fast Mersenne Twister 00:07:35 porting sbcl to one of the represented OS? 00:07:52 stassats: when i think of porting SBCL to Plan9, I get shivers 00:08:33 though SBCL on MINIX would be interesting project, as it will probably kill their VM all over 00:09:43 i'd be more interested in haiku 00:10:26 stassats: and add C++ on gcc 2.95 to the mix ? xD 00:10:37 I'd still like to see SBCL on VMS, just because. 00:11:21 p_l: well, it can be build with the newer gcc 00:11:26 nyef: Give me 4x32MB 36bit (FP) SIMM modules, and we might talk 00:11:53 stassats: they keep 2.95 due to ABI changes, afaik 00:11:59 p_l: sure, i'm more interesting in my own Lisp OS, but if choosing from these three 00:12:15 p_l: they do, but you can build it nevertheless 00:12:19 p_l: not the 30-pin ones, but the other size (which I have for some reason forgotten)? 00:12:27 nyef: 72pin 00:12:39 stassats: How's your LispOS coming, then? 00:12:40 36bit cause my alpha refuses to start without parity modules 00:12:54 nyef: not yet started, obviously 00:13:06 nyef: fyi, pyxis chipset, 21072 iirc 00:13:10 p_l: Could I interest you in a badly-named emulator, instead? 00:13:53 nyef: which one? :) 00:14:40 afaik CHARON guys have it working well, however their emulator either works only on windows (Personal Alpha) or is expensive 00:14:46 The one I was writing a couple weeks ago? 00:15:09 nyef: depends on how advanced it got :) 00:15:18 Not very, yet. 00:15:37 It kindof needs a better name than "lameulator", as well. 00:15:40 I might join with writing, except that I need to find a job first (frankly speaking, that's why I'm looking through GSoC right now) 00:16:36 kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:58 Best of luck with the hunt, then. 00:17:04 Erh. Looks like MOVD was only ever used in one direction. 00:17:59 pkhuong: Assembler trouble? 00:18:45 *nyef* remembers that there's some stupid bug in the x86 assembler, apparently intentional, where it effectively uses a fixup as an address instead of a literal. 00:20:03 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:20:31 And I remember there being something wierd about the port I/O instructions... 00:20:35 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:20:39 myeah, sb-assem trouble. I guess if that's my main worry, it's a good sign. I'm reduced to xxd | ndisasm because I didn't feel like defining the printers right. 00:21:06 MOVD also doubling as MOVQ isn't particularly intuitive. 00:21:56 nyef: if you are interested though, I can upload the VMS8.3 install iso for you 00:22:22 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:34 p_l: I'd appreciate it, though it'll be a while before I can really try to boot it. 00:23:04 nyef: just remember that it requires only EV4 :) 00:23:52 Fair enough. Once I get some of the peripheral stuff sorted out I can go back and figure out how to simulate other systems. 00:23:56 I could have an EBX alpha board shipped over, but W/MIPS is just too awful. 00:24:13 EBX? 00:24:29 I -think- I have a NoName board somewhere, but I don't know if it works or not. 00:24:40 p_l: I think it's about that size, yes. 00:27:44 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:27:47 heh, that board is possibly faster than my alpha, unless it uses a 21066 :) 00:28:53 (for some reason, though, my alpha is still supported by VMS8.x but some newer boards are not) 00:28:53 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 00:31:09 -!- jao [i=jao@dhcp-18-190-55-103.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:33 does any of modern gui toolkits have something like clim's incremental redisplay? 00:31:51 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.76.236] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:33:28 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 00:34:15 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB!"] 00:34:39 *p_l* thinks he will try with one of the OS projects on GSoC 00:34:49 which one? 00:36:03 one of BSDs, MINIX 3 or Plan9 00:37:26 nyef: oword after qwords? 00:37:38 p_l: What's open for {Free,Net}BSD? 00:37:45 pkhuong: Yeah, sounds right. 00:38:14 pkhuong: Not counting those wierd non-power-of-two words. 00:38:33 of course (: 00:38:47 nyef: FreeBSD has a fuckton of projects, NetBSD has less :) 00:39:03 *p_l* is currently reading FreeBSD list 00:39:14 nyef: pcc might be interesting. 00:40:19 stassats: I haven't looked at clim in a while. Is there any sensible Windows support for it yet? 00:40:22 p_l: Where is the freebsd list? 00:40:53 Phoodus: you will need an x server 00:40:54 nyef: http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ideas/index.html 00:41:12 Thanks. 00:41:23 blbrown_lt [n=blbrown@100.sub-75-200-143.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:40 hey, DWARF2 ;) 00:43:01 I was thinking of maybe writing AoE driver for NetBSD 00:43:25 stassats: with an X server on windows, clim fully works? 00:43:37 Phoodus: mcclim, that is 00:44:01 there is also non-free versions, which works without X 00:44:40 non-free-as-in-beer? 00:44:48 yes 00:44:54 ok 00:45:15 well, i do have cygwin on here, but it's not behaving too well. Installing everything never seems to leave it stable ;) 00:46:04 Phoodus: get Xming instead of cygwin's X server 00:46:50 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:24 syntaxfree [n=eigenmac@201.12.104.99] has joined #lisp 00:49:06 where can I go for some Lush support re: errors during compilation of Lush? 00:49:22 p_l: thanks, I didn't know about Xming 00:49:31 (not compilation of Lush programs; can't get Lush to make) 00:49:46 syntaxfree: doesn't it have a mailing list? 00:50:25 stassats that's a pointer, I'll check it out. no IRC? 00:50:39 syntaxfree: that i don't know 00:50:54 somehow it seems rude to join a mailing list just to post a compilation error log. 00:51:58 anyway, indulge my curiosity -- what is in trivial-features 0.4? 00:52:15 I tried google, but. 00:52:40 they became more trivial, apparently 00:54:25 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:26 *syntaxfree* is the bipolar lisp programmer they keep talking about 00:54:28 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 00:54:53 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 00:55:19 lol 00:57:58 szergling [n=tyc20@125-238-254-52.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 00:58:33 Is there such a thing as a monopolar lisp programmer, then? 00:59:06 well, they apparently found magnetic monopoles, so ... 00:59:21 *Quetzalcoatl_* is an octopolar lisp programmer. 00:59:23 ... They did? 00:59:34 Am I seriously mistaken if I think it should be possible to have a web backend (AJAX?) for CLIM? 00:59:36 Quetzalcoatl_: And here I thought you were a feathered serpent. 00:59:42 Magnetic monopoles? O_o 00:59:47 *Quetzalcoatl_* is also a feathered serpent. 01:00:07 That would be an interesting discovery. 01:00:09 Odin-: It "should" be possible. Feel free to make it so. 01:00:14 apparently some recent research suggests that they found something that acts like magnetic monopole 01:00:25 Any links? 01:00:32 Pfft, we already discovered those in Alpha Centauri. 01:00:34 Quetzalcoatl_: unfortunately lost 01:01:11 I also recall reading that the gravitational wave detector ended giving results supporting the hypothesis that world is 2D+time 01:01:14 nyef: I wasn't demanding it of anyone. More wondering if there was anything standing in the way of such a thing in terms of capacities 01:01:46 p_l: You sure this wasn't on the onion? 01:02:01 mogunus [n=marco@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:35 nyef: the one about world being 2D? no 01:02:53 Odin-: "Maybe". It's one of those things where the people with the technical chops and interest don't have the time., the people with the interest and time don't have the technical chops, and the people with the technical chops and time couldn't care less. 01:02:54 No, you're not sure? 01:03:11 the exact thing was that what we experience is a holographic projection of a 2D plane 01:03:21 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:24 (and a grainy one) 01:03:28 nyef: Whooo. That seems to happen a lot. 01:03:39 :) 01:03:41 I've heard that, too, except the hologram is imprinted on a giant sphere. 01:03:49 *Odin-* doesn't really have any of the three. :( 01:04:24 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@pool-72-70-65-230.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:04:36 nyef: sounds similar to the basic rule of programming projects... 01:05:00 benny` [n=benny@i577A0809.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 01:05:05 time, quality, cost: choose two 01:05:17 I get to control the last one :D 01:05:20 That's not just programming projects 01:05:42 Odin-: That's why it ended being the motto of at least one financial control dept. I know of 01:06:00 (though it was hi-tech company) 01:06:32 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A077B.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:06:59 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:09:37 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 01:11:23 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:00 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:41 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:13:36 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:09 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:15:37 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:15:53 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.252.214] has joined #lisp 01:16:25 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:31 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:56 is there a sane way to migrate a rucksack database to another server? 01:18:59 -!- kuhzoo1 is now known as kuhzoo 01:19:00 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:03 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCDC55.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 01:19:38 scp -r /rucksack.db root@site:/var/db/rucksack/ doesn't sound like a very good idea, imo. 01:19:49 fusss: well, you can freeze it first :D 01:21:39 grep -in freeze rucksack/doc returns nothing. is there some established way? i'm looking at Lemmens' talk and the tutorial, nothing. 01:22:17 i just need it to store document metadata. the documents themselves are kept by montezuma. 01:24:01 fusss: I meant playing with filesystem to do the freezing, or stopping any writes from lisp app 01:24:47 p_l: that would just be useful for overwrites though, no? what if I want to merge databases? 01:25:33 -!- diog3n3s [n=diog3n3s@97-118-148-234.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:25:40 fusss: I guess you could make an app that did a merge and saved it into a new file... 01:25:52 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [No route to host] 01:26:23 that would make sense. just making sure i wasn't reinventing some established tool/technique. 01:26:29 -!- syntaxfree [n=eigenmac@201.12.104.99] has quit ["Computer goes to sleep!"] 01:28:10 bbe [n=bbe@58.213.189.244] has joined #lisp 01:28:49 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.122] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:30:07 fusss: well, TC has a function for atomic copies of databases... it would be interesting to get something similar in other dbs 01:30:26 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:31:20 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.132.71] has joined #lisp 01:31:41 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:44 niice, TC has a j-pop video on the front page http://tokyocabinet.sourceforge.net/ 01:34:55 ROTFL... just found a direct reference to myself in a facebook quiz 01:35:21 -!- blbrown_lt [n=blbrown@100.sub-75-200-143.myvzw.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:35:38 nothing explains ACID like four guys in spandex suits 01:36:10 Jstick [n=jstick@pool-71-174-82-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:36 fusss: Have you seen the "The Manga Guide to ..." series? :D 01:37:48 *p_l* is seriously thinking of ordering the statistics and calculus ones 01:38:49 it also has "The Manga Guide to Databases" where a fairy from the book saves a country by teaching the princess how to use RDBMs to maintain country's giant fruit export business 01:38:53 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E428.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:39:51 also, the video is not in japanese :P 01:39:56 inventory management, the sexiest thing since four spandex-clad guys and a princess (presumably underage) 01:40:20 btw, TC is ~300 functions right? feel like getting some brag-rights? :-P 01:40:28 fusss: the statistics one contains a love story 01:40:38 fusss: you mean my bindings? ;D 01:40:50 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-54.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:40:51 CFFI for that fucker should be about a week's labor of love 01:41:13 fusss: I have the C connector done, I need to finish a Lisp API :) 01:41:54 As well as add Tyrant and Dystopia bindings (but after TC it will be easy) 01:41:57 that's always the tricky part. it's not hard to call out to C, making it attractive OTOH .. (assuming your library marketing budget can't afford four guys in spandex suits) 01:42:30 -!- doylent [n=doylent@host63-24-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 01:42:31 alright, back to labor of love .. 01:42:33 *nooper* calls out 01:43:09 *p_l* still tries to get what the fuck those scandinavians were singing about 01:43:33 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.252.214] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:44:05 because if it's actually about databases, I'm gonna go over to physics dept. at uni and ask if I waked in correct universe 01:44:15 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 01:45:33 ... okay, the page includes easter eggs in code :D 01:45:44 "it's raining men .. namely, sven, igor, ingmar, lars, skjøld" 01:45:56 -!- benny` is now known as benny 01:46:10 Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has joined #lisp 01:46:24 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:47:15 in place of that video there used to be a flash presentation of the library... 01:47:57 Hallelujah, it's raining men? 01:48:45 I think it's time for me to go to bed before this conversation gets any sillier. 01:48:48 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 01:49:11 *Xach* hopes to see some pals tomorrow at ILC 01:50:57 fusss: english version still has the presentation... I guess you'd have to delve into 2ch to find what the hell those 4 spandex-clad men are about 01:51:32 p_l: thanks, but i have something that's almost working. no time to spend another few days on tool research. 01:52:13 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:52:40 what i have is a database of document metadata. the metadata is read from documents, and stored along with a document location (URI) and hash. rucksack is perfect for this. i just need to think a little hard before i generate stuff on my dev machine. maybe i can generate the metadata as sexps :-) 01:52:42 fusss: Well, If I get around to finishing the lisp api, I'll make my own presentation (But I don't have marketing budget, so no music videos as tutorials) 01:55:07 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087E3D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:41 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has left #lisp 01:58:10 -!- sohum [n=sohum@burgmann181.anu.edu.au] has left #lisp 02:04:37 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:23 I'm using slime right now in emacs (well trying to). Not sure what I'm doing really. 02:05:47 Kenjin_ [n=Kenjin@242-205.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 02:05:51 I made a hello.lisp thing at the repl. When I do C-c C-c I thought that would 'compile' something but it makes a new buffer with lots of warnings in it. 02:05:57 Not really sure what the deal is. 02:06:18 Any ideas what is supposed to happen, and for that matter, is SLIME really the best way to write Lisp? Any thoughts? 02:06:25 lisp is not just parentheses, it's parentheses with lots of warnings 02:07:31 :) 02:07:39 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:07:50 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:08:00 emma: paste what you typed into the editor http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 02:08:11 hard to tell if it's a problem with your code, or a problem with your slime setup 02:08:28 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-152-33.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:08:28 okay 02:08:37 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:26 -!- Jstick [n=jstick@pool-71-174-82-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:11:38 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 02:12:20 benny` [n=benny@i577A0809.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:12:36 emma pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77407 02:13:01 fusss: ^ 02:13:06 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0809.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:13:36 emma: C-c C-c means interrupt in the REPL buffer 02:13:39 you are typing into the repl window 02:13:42 C-c is interrupt 02:13:43 it means compile-this in a lisp file buffer 02:14:11 emma: open an editor window (which should look like a text editor buffer, no fancy prompt) 02:14:22 Yes I'm typing into the REPL window, where am I supposed to type? 02:14:39 easiest way is to visit or open a file; C-x-f then name of the file 02:14:40 Oh I see. I didn't know you could go to an editor window and still be in slime. 02:14:57 emma: if you want to make a hello.lisp you should have an actual file named that... 02:14:59 I thought that repl *was* slime 02:15:45 i named the repl hello.lisp 02:15:55 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:15:56 you can't name the repl :-P 02:16:13 split your emacs window; C-x-2 02:16:18 while in the repl i did C-x s and called it hello.lisp 02:16:46 you saved your repl interaction 02:17:15 okay 02:17:16 spend a day or two with an emacs tutorial emma 02:17:18 was it a mistake? 02:17:42 I did read the whole emacs tutorial. I can move around and save stuff, etc. I just don't know slime yet. 02:18:16 I think what I was not realizing is that you are in slime *mode* even if you go to other buffers to just make text? 02:18:32 you are in slime mode when you edit .lisp files (generally) 02:18:39 It was not clear from the book that you should leave that REPL with the CL-USER> prompt 02:19:21 chris2_ [n=chris@p5B16B6EE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:19:40 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.103.241] has joined #lisp 02:19:44 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:19:49 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:19:55 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:57 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 02:20:08 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:20:20 emma: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2140275496971874400 02:20:34 do you guys really use slime to do this? 02:20:39 there is nothing better than slime? 02:21:41 emma: you're using it wrong 02:22:08 split the window; type code into the editor buffer and send forms to the repl window below as soon as you type them. 02:22:10 okay i made another buffer but it just gives me another instance of the repl 02:22:15 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-245.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:22:40 you go back and for to the repl (C-x-o) just when you need to evaluate something quickly and don't care to save the changes 02:22:51 i know C-x-o 02:22:59 emma: you made another window, not another buffer 02:23:05 but the question is, how do i get a screen that is just text editing? 02:23:05 change to that buffer and visit a file (C-x-f file-name.lisp, for example) 02:23:16 I did C-x-2 02:23:30 jlf`: emma is right, imo 02:23:52 so when you are not in the repl you do not get any slime stuff like keeping track of parenthesis? 02:23:59 now visit your file if it exists, or give it a new name if it doesn't. 02:24:03 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-153-130.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:24:16 no, C-x 2 splits windows. it has nothing to do with buffers. 02:24:20 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 02:24:27 you get paren matching everywhere; M-( 02:26:18 emacs makes it very difficult to learn anything. 02:26:26 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:26:31 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:43 emma: emacs makes it difficult to learn emacs, but everything else easy. just get it over with :-) 02:26:46 Im afraid emacs and slime is holding back lisp has there been any consideration to doing it differently? 02:27:44 On the one hand I completely recognize how audacious i must sound since I know you are a professional and really have impressive expertise, and it's very obvious I know virtually nothing. 02:28:12 it's best to get into lisp-bashing after evaluating a few forms first. factorial and fibonacci and you get to blog about it :-) 02:28:28 lol 02:29:00 emma: don't fight it. think of it as a bar to keep lesser-ones away. are you good enough? frame it THAT way. 02:29:07 But the fact I know virtually nothing (but I am not a complete moron) and want to learn lisp, but find this extremely bizantine, is relevant in the sense that other people who might like to learn lisp might just go with something easier to get started with. 02:29:13 I won't give up :) 02:29:14 emma: Some implementations have their own IDEs and of course you can use any text editor (but ones that match parens are of course better) 02:29:42 i don't use LispWorks allot, mainly because it has a broken emacs clone and it doesn't mesh well with slime. 02:30:06 it's just that the only IDE that is considered to be better was Genera, which is quite defunct for various reasons :) 02:30:28 brb, cigarette 02:30:31 emma: iirc took me about 3 hours of digging to get started 02:30:59 fwiw, i had to allocate a week for emacs and didn't use slime until i was a lisper for 4 years 02:31:22 *fusss* was on ilisp-mode until 2007 02:31:30 rullie: That's kind of a lot compared to stories I hear my friends who brag about certain other languages I won't mention. 02:31:58 emma: the default non-slime emacs lisp mode is EASY :-) 02:32:08 emma: when you want to learn something, 3 hours isn't alot 02:32:14 well that's encouraging, anyway, I don't want to overdo it here and have people get sick of me. I'm not going to give up. 02:32:16 emma: well, there's also the 3h time required to start Eclipse... :P 02:32:57 *p_l* actually had situation where after deciding to try out Eclipse he had to go make a break due to it starting reeeaaaallyyy slow 02:32:58 Visual SourceSafe ATE my code. a night on the phone with MS and 3k in tech support fees just to get it back. 02:33:08 emma: i'm a new lisper, a new emacser, and a new slimer, and i'm impressed :) 02:33:38 emma: it will probably help to understand emacs' (nonstandard) meaning of the terms "window" and "buffer", and that the REPL (read-eval-print loop) _buffer_ is for quick interactive stuff, as fusss mentioned, and some-file.lisp _buffers_ are used for growing code that you intend to keep 02:34:55 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B1688EF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:35:34 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@p5B16B6EE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:36:43 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:17 emma: try http://www.lispworks.com/downloads/index.html 02:37:23 -!- cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:37 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 02:42:02 cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:19 -!- gusnoo [n=nonamme@h-67-101-29-191.nycmny83.dynamic.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:53:27 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:55:03 In the book it says to do C-c C-c but emacs says that's undefined 02:55:16 And when you are editing a lisp source should that be in fundamental? 02:55:23 jfactor [n=jfactor@pool-72-70-65-230.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:07 No. Lisp-mode 02:57:46 You would almost think that the book would say put it in Lisp-Mode 02:57:51 Or is that supposed to be obvious? 02:58:08 I just started emacs and to start slime I did M-x slime 02:58:12 is that not the correct way? 02:59:12 Can you run it wiyhout slime? e,g C-u M-x run-lisp sbcl 02:59:50 emma: you were trying C-c C-c on the slime repl? 03:00:10 emma: starting emacs and slime as you did is correct. 03:00:25 emma: when openning a .lisp buffer, it should switch to lisp-mode automatically. 03:00:47 emma: then you should have slime features activated, such as C-x C-e to send a form to the inferior lisp process. 03:01:19 if you opened a lisp file before starting slime, you need to reopen it for slime to notice that it's there 03:01:51 but it shouldn't have been fundamental either way 03:01:55 rodge: yes. 03:02:10 okay, also I named it hello.cl 03:02:32 ya, that would only make sense in a buffer for a lisp file 03:02:38 and those are usually named .lisp 03:02:53 emacs doesn't recognize the .cl suffix by default, try using .lisp 03:02:59 I'm used to using linux where extensions don't matter so much. I guess emacs works more like Windows. 03:03:06 pjb pasted "auto-mode-alist" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77410 03:03:21 emma: emacs works however you like it to work 03:03:27 emma: or you can set your auto-mode-alist to have it recognize .cl. See the paste. 03:03:32 emma: it uses the file names to help figure it out, but you can start lisp mode yourself if you named it something different 03:03:37 emacs-dwim: eponysterical 03:03:38 or do that 03:04:24 emma: actually, emacs use regular expressions in the full path of the file, not 03:04:25 ust the file extension. You could select the mode according to the directory or something else. 03:04:45 jlf`: i just want to be a /real/ LispM! 03:04:49 sshfs, nice! 03:05:11 Now that I named it hello.lisp it is behaving more the way that one would expect while carefully reading the book. However, I have to tell you, the book suggests naming files .lisp or .cl 03:05:24 See above. 03:05:56 From the book -- It's customary to name Common Lisp source files with a .lisp extension, though some folks use .cl instead. 03:06:06 See above. 03:06:38 .cl is used most often by franz, and almost no one else. LW is a tad weirder and understands .l (tell that to my lex grammars!) 03:06:38 emma: apparently not the folks maintaining lisp mode :), you can name it whatever you want though, just do what pjb pasted 03:07:15 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:07:30 There's a third way, which may come hand for "data" files: you can use local variables. Writting on the first or second line a comment containign -*- mode:lisp -*- allow you to set the mode for the file. 03:07:30 okay 03:07:53 whatever its extension. 03:07:57 or you can do M-x lisp-mode 03:08:01 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 03:08:14 that's how i write emails with code snippets 03:08:28 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:09:28 *fusss* is building a USB bootable slax for lisp hacking 03:10:08 fusss: mind http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html ; do the same with sbcl ;-) 03:10:30 Instant lisp machine. 03:10:45 heh 03:11:17 circa 1996, i wrote a bootloader for SkyRoads, the old DOS game. a bootable game floppy that i carried around in my backpack :-) 03:11:56 pjb`: do you use emacs-nox? 03:12:13 In this howto, yes. 03:12:16 i kinda got used to it now after so many years of working out of VPSes :-P 03:12:25 But usually I use emacs in X. 03:12:39 ssh -X works well enough in general. 03:12:58 the only reason i'm building is to boot linux on the machine that's on my lap now; been a while 03:13:00 for emacs at least. 03:13:26 not from windows though. I use Xming and the fonts are messed for everything but the default ones. 03:13:27 Well, you could "reboot" each computer you meet into a lisp computer. 03:13:30 that GOODUSER thingy at the end reminds me of old practice of changing users shell to emacs for being annoying... 03:14:44 or helpful. 03:15:09 define "helpful" 03:15:18 i spent a couple years working on implementing an emacs on the bare metal... (in scheme), by the end, i realised i should have done it in CL. 03:15:33 I know that I parted with the sysadmin in my high school on *bad* terms 03:15:33 emacs-dwim: XD 03:15:42 p_l: :-) 03:15:48 but now i have been enlightened. 03:15:57 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@pool-72-70-65-230.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:16:01 Qsquare [n=user@208.75.91.170] has joined #lisp 03:16:07 pjb`: I nearly asked "Should I call my lawyer now?" 03:16:18 p_l: hihihi 03:16:20 teacher [n=cervante@200.36.161.136] has joined #lisp 03:16:27 the thing is, I was serious 03:16:38 jfactor [n=jfactor@pool-71-162-102-27.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:47 -!- teacher [n=cervante@200.36.161.136] has left #lisp 03:16:56 p_l: Paktel (the pakistani government ISP) sent two people to our house 03:17:00 p_l: so you got a good learning experience. 03:17:23 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:04 pjb`: "shoot first"? yeah, Han was a genius 03:20:23 i think i can get away without a C compiler for sbcl hacking 03:20:42 does CFFI invoke an external C compiler? 03:20:48 Rewrite the few parts written in C in lisp. 03:21:08 CFFI invokes the native FFI. 03:21:12 the groveler does at least 03:21:16 fusss: CFFI afaik doesn't, ASDF sometimes does 03:21:19 Does Alien invoke an external C compiler? 03:21:21 No. 03:21:41 sb-alien I mean. 03:22:51 Or directly in assembler. If parts of a program a worth writting in C, they're probably worth writting in assembler anyways. 03:22:55 Use sb-assem 03:23:28 i never touched assem 03:23:36 is that some kind of inline assembler? 03:24:03 I don't know. But there's a sb-assem:assemble function... 03:24:10 write a small language that compiles directly to assembly with Lisp-like syntax and use it to bootstrap stuff? :) 03:24:42 none of that is necessary. i'm doing document classification, searching and tagging :-P 03:25:25 btw, fusss, why did ISP goons visit you? :) 03:25:31 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:25:35 lukego [n=lukegorr@219-89-62-179.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:26:01 oh, just a little cisco shell that i dictionaried with a little perl script 03:26:10 XD 03:26:57 ah, where are the golden times where getting wizard privileges on TOPS-20 could land you a job :P 03:27:15 no evidence, because the tools where in the linux partition. i just set the loadlin prompt timeout to 1 sec and they didn't see it. 03:27:39 lol 03:32:14 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:40 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:32:42 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:42 ... wow 03:32:44 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 03:32:59 starting wireshark triggered some catastrophic allocation failure 03:37:08 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:37:46 fusss: what are you using for the text search? are any of your documents utf-8? 03:38:14 mogunus: i know you have been trying to setup montezuma. yes, montezuma does utf-8 :-) 03:38:18 and i'm using it 03:38:47 exciting. it told me I had illegal utf-8 characters in my query string... 03:38:52 you just need to be very careful with your :external-formats 03:39:31 it uses babel which kept barfing on me, but you can bypass it, run your strings through flexi-streams first and give that to montezuma 03:40:22 you probably have an OPEN somewhere with no encoding specification, or maybe you're allocating a buffer sequence with no element-type 03:40:47 I was just inlining the query, like it showed in the tutorial. 03:41:09 I have my slime-net-coding-system set to utf-8-unix, so I'd hoped that would work 03:42:20 yeah, slime + repl configuration was a little weird. i ended up converting the strings to utf-8, and then pasting the raw vectors to montezuma to test it. after that i ran a whole directory with arabic text and it worked. 03:42:52 excellent. I'll try that then. 03:42:57 thanks very much :-) 03:44:53 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:45:01 -!- benny` is now known as benny 03:46:04 it just takes a little discipline. for example, if you're reading the query from a web form make sure you specify accept-charset too 03:46:35 simard [n=simard@24-230-199-21.tr.cgocable.ca] has joined #lisp 03:47:27 *p_l* wonders if the quality of the network design in dorms reflects the quality of security in the cisco switch :> 03:50:51 mogunus: i'm gonna need to implement encoding detection next.http://www.mozilla.org/projects/intl/UniversalCharsetDetection.html 03:51:34 fusss: are you adding that directly to montezuma, or is it a seperate projet? 03:51:40 I'm looking for a good and comprehensive tutorial on lisp macros, any hint ? 03:52:05 mogunus: should be a separate pre-processor, no? 03:52:12 simard: On Lisp 03:52:28 minion: tell simard about On Lisp 03:52:29 simard: please see On Lisp: by Paul Graham An advanced textbook on Common Lisp, with special focus on macros. http://www.cliki.net/On%20Lisp 03:53:00 well thank you ! 03:53:47 fusss: to re-phrase: are you considering getting it bundled with montezuma? I think that ferret bundles one, but I could be wrong. 03:54:14 mogunus: there is plenty of help if you're reading the document from a web server. some established heauristics, a la RFC 3023. but for on-disk documents it's a little harder. 03:55:25 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 03:55:51 mogunus: i don't mind sending a patch to montezuma. but it has to work for me first :-) i have a few things that i need to get working, any byproducts can be made public 03:57:11 kidd2 [n=kidd@80.31.143.142] has joined #lisp 03:58:24 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@80.31.143.142] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:58:30 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:00:33 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:00:56 -!- Quetzalcoatl_ [n=godless@cpe-71-72-235-91.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:02:05 i will also need to parse MS Office documents and convert them to plain text before indexing them uffffff 04:03:19 fusss: The binary format might be not so hard to parse now, especially with SWIG 04:03:46 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:04:24 as SWIG can autogenerate C structure accessors :) 04:05:02 didn't MS open the formats? i was thinking more like quick CFFI for whatever OOo/Koffice/Abiwor uses; just write the glue C functions (i.e. int word97_to_text (char **file_name))) and just write FFIs for those wrapper functions :-) 04:05:45 fusss: yes, the old formats have docs available. Unfortunately no one expected the old format to be optimized for speed in a rather... intense way 04:06:13 the whole docs are basically C structure definitions :) 04:06:48 i will just take the easiest route possible, even if i have to write VBA scripts to open files and Save As text ;-) 04:07:31 dom automation would be probably the easiest way... 04:07:49 ms docs have a dom? 04:07:54 *COM 04:08:09 yeah, but you can do that with WSH 04:08:37 and yes, they have something like DOM afaik, but thanks to the way most people write their documents it's unusable 04:09:10 (poor DTP people have it everyday :D) 04:09:56 -!- Lispster [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:11:38 btw, check the first link here. hacker erotica! http://bulk.fefe.de/ 04:11:41 diog3n3s [n=diog3n3s@97-118-148-234.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:54 a bit dated but fun 04:12:06 fusss: hacker erotica reminds me of that "hw pr0n" folder somewhere in my system 04:13:23 _folder_? get outta here, you can't be storing pron in LDAP, use fs directories mr unix-guy ;-) 04:14:08 xD 04:14:31 it resides currently on FAT-formatted stick, so let it be :P 04:15:23 verilog close-ups 04:15:23 a summary of it could be "there might be hot computer savvy chicks, but a hi-perf. router/server will get more action with them than you" :D 04:17:10 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:17:12 [Condition of type BACHELOR-TALK] 04:17:45 [Condition of type GONNA-DIE-VIRGIN] ;-) 04:18:30 i think that might be a preferable option if you live in the UK ;-) 04:18:33 -!- diog3n3s [n=diog3n3s@97-118-148-234.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:19:17 I'm considering moving away. Not because of lack of good looking females, but because of law :) 04:20:21 dude, msg me privately if you wanna talk OT :-D 04:20:29 hehe 04:20:50 no seriously 04:20:55 lets wrap it up, this talk provides nothing anyway :D 04:21:53 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:24:30 diog3n3s [n=diog3n3s@97.118.148.234] has joined #lisp 04:24:58 -!- td123 [n=tom@c-76-16-162-211.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:26:46 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 04:30:31 fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:31 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:30:37 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:06 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:39:46 -!- simard [n=simard@24-230-199-21.tr.cgocable.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:43:48 -!- bbe [n=bbe@58.213.189.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:44:25 I'm reading through the CLIM spec. Is there any difference between its incremental update, and programmatically changing GUI components in a standard UI? 04:47:16 Obviously, a CLIM incremental update is a change in rendering code, while retained-mode UIs would be a change in data 04:47:49 dtangren_ [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:48:08 But immediate-mode standard UIs that have to repaint themselves also can swap out their code 04:48:35 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@68.126.185.40] has joined #lisp 04:48:55 asdfqwer [n=cs@c-98-220-171-58.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:56 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:49:48 -!- fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 04:51:44 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:53:26 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:54:37 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:55:29 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:00:48 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@ip98-164-199-153.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:34 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250016.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:04:44 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F919.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:05:24 c|mell [n=cmell@x250011.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 05:06:50 am I missing an easy way to convert a "normal string" into a base-string? i can't believe i have to worry about types ;/ 05:07:09 Does M1 and M2 @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus#Substitution basically represent an occurance of x? 05:07:22 *asdfqwer* is trying to learn how lambda works in programs 05:09:11 I guess (concatenate) is good 05:10:05 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:10:11 -!- asdfqwer [n=cs@c-98-220-171-58.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:11:25 Catnappa [n=agsdgi@c-24-1-168-169.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:40 No, it doesn't represent an occurance of x: it says that if you have an application of one term to another term with a substitution that you make the substittion in both terms. 05:15:04 Oh, he left... 05:16:50 -!- szergling [n=tyc20@125-238-254-52.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has left #lisp 05:17:42 my emacs isn't giving me matching param highlight, any ideas? 05:18:02 not in lisp mode for some reason? 05:18:17 mmm, i don't know 05:18:22 how do i check 05:18:33 M-x show-paren-mode 05:18:48 will turn it on, if it isn't. 05:19:05 yeah that does the trick 05:19:21 how do i check if i'm in lisp mode 05:19:43 the status bar underneath your edit buffer should have (Lisp ....) on the right 05:19:49 (at least it does in xemacs) 05:20:44 Lisp ElDoc Slime[test-server, {not connected}] 05:21:17 you should be in lisp mode. No idea why the paren highlight stopped working 05:21:41 mm k 05:21:48 they never worked actually 05:22:02 rvirding [n=rvirding@adsl-63-205-181-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:18 afaik, show-paren-mode isn't on by default in GNU emacs 05:22:26 put (show-paren-mode 1) in your .emacs to change that 05:23:28 thanks 05:23:29 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@68.126.185.40] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:25:28 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.103.241] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:34:27 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 05:38:56 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:31 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 05:41:13 Good morning. 05:41:47 futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:42:39 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.103.241] has joined #lisp 05:44:01 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:31 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 05:45:23 yo, people! what's the best book to learn common lisp? 05:45:49 minion: tell npoektop about PCL 05:45:50 npoektop: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:46:24 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 05:47:00 what about Common_Lisp.A_Gentle_Introduction_to_Symbolic_Computation.by_David_S_Touretzky.pdf? 05:47:10 npoektop: That's fine too. 05:48:31 i got ten books, can't decide which one to choose ) 05:49:53 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:05 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@adsl-63-205-181-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 05:50:26 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 05:50:38 agnel [n=joel@115.99.2.68] has joined #lisp 06:00:04 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 06:03:22 -!- mogunus [n=marco@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:04:06 What are the ten books? 06:07:47 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:08:32 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:08:34 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:44 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:16:30 -!- Catnappa [n=agsdgi@c-24-1-168-169.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:19:00 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:54 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #lisp 06:43:30 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:44:47 -!- dtangren_ [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:45:01 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:53:54 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:54:37 bbe [n=bbe@221.226.128.166] has joined #lisp 06:56:40 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:35 -!- saikat [n=saikat@128.253.170.217] has quit [] 06:59:26 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@ip98-164-199-153.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:59:59 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:02:13 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:03:47 -!- Qsquare [n=user@208.75.91.170] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:03:47 Qsquare [n=user@208.75.91.170] has joined #lisp 07:09:49 yo, people! i've just read in "Little Lisper" that cdr is pronounced "could-er". Is it [kude] or [koude]? Or maybe [koulder]? 07:10:23 kood-er 07:11:35 cool, thanx ) 07:12:03 interesting, is there any hidden meaning? 07:12:16 contents of decrement register 07:12:49 Not so much hidden, but the IBM 704 had two instructions that were useful. Those were used verbatim in LISP when it was first implemented. 07:13:19 CAR = Contents of the Address Register and as beach mentioned, CDR = Contents of the Decrement Register. 07:13:59 interesting, thanx ) 07:15:12 Also, I used LISP in all caps since when it was first implemented (shortly after FORTRAN) it was on a machine that didn't support lower case letters. Modern versions of the language are written as Lisp. 07:17:18 you must be know everything about lisp ) 07:17:29 Everybody here does. 07:17:42 nah, not even close. But, I know all the early questions. 07:17:44 beach: LOL. 07:19:09 npoektop: So are you going to tell us what the ten books are? 07:19:17 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.43.232] has joined #lisp 07:19:45 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.43.232] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:20:00 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:20:39 ok, one moment 07:22:36 here they are 07:22:38 Common_Lisp.A_Gentle_Introduction_to_Symbolic_Computation.by_David_S_Touretzky.pdf 07:22:38 Common_Lisp.An_Interactive_Approach.by_Stuart_Shapiro.pdf 07:22:38 Common_Lisp_the_Language.2nd.by_Guy_Steele.pdf 07:22:42 Lisp_World.1.Introduction_to_Language_and_Programming.by_Hyvonen_and_Seppanen.ru.djvu 07:22:45 Lisp_World.2.Programming_Techniques_and_Environments.by_Hyvonen_and_Seppanen.ru.djvu 07:22:48 Lisp_in_Small_Pieces.by_Christian_Queinnec.djvu 07:22:51 Little_Lisper.3rd.by_Friedman_and_Felleisen.djvu 07:22:51 Loving_Lisp_or_the_Savvy_Programmers_Secret_Weapon.by_Mark_Watson.pdf 07:22:54 On_Lisp.by_Paul_Graham.pdf 07:22:58 Practical_Common_Lisp.by_Peter_Seibel.djvu 07:23:01 Tutorial_On_Good_Lisp_Programming_Style.by_Peter_Norvig.pdf 07:23:05 07:23:36 Gross! You've got PCL in DJVU?! 07:25:08 i have both html and djvu, djvu is made up very good for reading 07:26:51 well, djvu was engineered for scanned books :) 07:27:31 Although that is true, I prefer scanned PDFs since they frequently contain a significant amount of metadata associated with the scanned material. 07:27:36 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:00 Also the readers for PDFs seem to be of higher quality and performance compared to the (free) djvu readers. 07:28:08 jso: yes, but without OCR, you will at best get a png of the page 07:28:18 yeah, but it seems that this book is a preprint 07:28:23 indeed. and colors. :P 07:28:48 jso: djvu also has colors (well, not much for text, but it can be done) 07:29:14 Then I've been missing out! 07:29:53 npoektop: I know it's not in your list of files, but my personal recommendation is "Object-Oriented Common Lisp" by Stephen Slade. 07:30:21 npoektop: With "Successful Lisp" a close second. 07:31:05 ok, i'll try to find them, thanx 07:32:42 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@219-89-62-179.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 07:36:32 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@pool-71-162-102-27.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:43:45 saikat [n=saikat@r253170217.resnet.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 07:44:16 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-134-62.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:44:28 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:45:16 -!- saikat [n=saikat@r253170217.resnet.cornell.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:45:45 Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:46:53 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 07:48:24 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 07:54:13 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 07:54:58 Is there a easy way to access to a nested list or hash table? I want to do something like this. $list[1][2][3] = 'value'; 07:56:43 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:58:14 i'm interested too 07:58:27 Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:59:13 tomoyuki28jp: a list is not an array 07:59:46 HET2: oh, yes. alist or hash table then. 08:00:38 *sykopomp* wishes lispbuilder-sdl's sound stuff actually worked. 08:02:44 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:03:50 hello 08:06:06 yo 08:06:52 yo 08:07:16 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:07:50 tomoyuki28jp: What is the problem here? 08:08:36 beach: The one I asked here regarding nested alist or hash table? 08:08:53 tomoyuki28jp: for nested lists, you would just do (nth 3 (nth 2 (nth 1 list))) 08:08:56 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:10:50 beach: setf for nth isn't defined and I want such for alist or hash table. 08:11:30 tomoyuki28jp: why don't you define (setf nth)? 08:12:03 pjb`: you are right. thanks for your advice. 08:12:31 -!- bbe [n=bbe@221.226.128.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:12:50 tomoyuki28jp: or use elt instead of nth 08:14:58 beach: yeah, I can use elt for list, thanks. 08:18:03 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250011.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:34 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-152-33.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:44 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 08:27:00 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:32 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.157.0] has joined #lisp 08:32:52 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-293.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 08:33:50 is setf defined for elt, then? 08:35:44 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has left #lisp 08:40:46 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:44:40 yes 08:57:01 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:58:58 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:19 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:13:00 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:13:04 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 09:13:53 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:50 hmm, i thought (setf nth) is defined 09:16:05 LostMonarch [n=roby@host53-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:16:09 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:16:30 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-134-155.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:20:47 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E479B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:50 indeed it is, am i missing something? 09:23:38 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-145-79.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:24:18 right you are. 09:25:10 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:15 vinleod [n=Vincent_@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:18 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 09:40:02 diracdelta1 [n=diracdel@67.180.132.112] has joined #lisp 09:41:13 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 09:41:43 Malbolgne [n=baal@81.227.153.49] has joined #lisp 09:42:27 Hi guys 09:43:18 I need to make a macro expansion at runtime, is eval-when the right tool for the job ? 09:43:56 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:44:16 konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has joined #lisp 09:44:50 clhs macroexpand 09:44:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm 09:49:37 c|mell [n=cmell@y192005.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 09:50:50 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-133-68.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:51:04 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-54.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:51:21 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 09:52:46 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:56:43 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:56:51 -!- diracdelta [n=diracdel@c-67-180-132-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 09:59:35 stassats`: So macroexpand expands the macro and runs the expansion? 09:59:55 doesn't run, no 10:01:41 stassats`: but if I macroexpand something in the repl it spits out the results at me 10:02:48 then you are macroexpanding it wrong 10:03:36 stassats`: I need to quote it since it is a function, sry 10:04:25 anyway, why do you want to macroexpand and run macros at runtime? 10:06:07 stassats`: I want to build a labels statement depending on what data I have at runtime 10:06:29 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:08:33 you want to define functions at runtime? 10:08:42 Malbolgne: and why do you want to do *that*? 10:09:05 beach: Because it is possible! :D 10:10:20 you can compile functions at run-time: (compile 'foo (reverse '(x (x) lambda))) 10:10:56 I want to build a fast way to traverse a directed graph and thought that functions was a good way to go 10:12:25 kind of like in On Lisp where he compiles a bunch of functions together at runtime 10:12:28 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C98B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:12:38 chapter 6 10:13:00 well, why do you want runtime macros then? 10:15:11 I need to be able to call every function from every other function and the dependencies between them are only known at runtime 10:15:39 put their names into some variable 10:16:45 sepult [n=buggarag@87.78.152.33] has joined #lisp 10:19:04 I will do it like that too 10:20:23 But the build-a-gigantic-lambda-function-at-runtime-approach is just so interesting that I have to do it like that as well 10:21:58 thanks for all your help! 10:22:05 Does CLX handle `character-set-switch-keysym' properly? Mine seems to have no effect. 10:22:52 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@97-89-230-116.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:22:58 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@97-89-230-116.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:25:39 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:42 kooll [n=samson_t@sd-9780.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 10:26:43 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:28:25 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192005.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:29:09 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:29:13 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:47 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-159-16.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:30:05 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@sd-9780.dedibox.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:34:55 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.210.9] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:35:03 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.210.9] has joined #lisp 10:39:07 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:39:32 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 10:44:10 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 10:47:38 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 10:49:06 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-54.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:50:21 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.103.241] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:52:47 bbe [n=bbe@221.226.128.166] has joined #lisp 10:55:04 antoni [n=user@30.pool85-53-12.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:55:50 c|mell [n=cmell@y192016.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:00:18 ASau`` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 11:01:43 -!- agnel [n=joel@115.99.2.68] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:02:23 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 11:04:34 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:58 what is the easiest way to search for a string within another string? 11:05:29 clhs search 11:05:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_search.htm 11:06:11 isismelting: Check out http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/ it has lots of niceness :) 11:06:30 thanks everyone 11:06:44 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:06:47 <_3b> if a compiler-macro returns a call to the same function (but not the original form), should the compiler macro be called again? 11:07:24 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:07:25 also, if one is trying to parse english and do pattern-matching (for an eliza-type-thing) is it generally better to work with strings, lists of strings, or symbols -- or is it personal preference -- or is it too complicated to generalize? 11:07:47 _3b: I'd say that it could. 11:08:05 isismelting: classically, it's done with symbols. 11:08:14 <_3b> pjb`: ok, so not specified either way? 11:08:25 dwave [n=ask@062016247065.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 11:08:27 isismelting: for a more modern or sophisticated approach, you could use CLOS objects for words. 11:08:52 _3b: Let's reread clhs define-compiler-macro... 11:09:12 thank you pjb 11:09:26 "Unlike an ordinary macro, a compiler macro can decline to provide an expansion merely by returning a form that is the same as the original (which can be obtained by using &whole)." 11:09:43 <_3b> stassats`: yeah, that part is easy :) 11:09:44 does this mean that it couldn't? 11:09:55 <_3b> stassats`: that covers when it just returns the arg untouched 11:10:30 <_3b> stassats`: if you for example called copy-list on it, it wouldn't be 'same' anymore, so should it call teh compiler macro again? 11:10:49 _3b: I would rather expect it, yes. 11:10:53 <_3b> the paret saying it is like defmacro except that list seems to imply it should 11:10:58 <_3b> *part 11:11:00 can you install clos with asdf-install 11:11:13 isismelting: clos is inside cl 11:11:21 defclass, defmethod, etc. 11:11:34 <_3b> ok, calling it again is easiest, so that is how i'll handle it for now 11:11:39 is defstruct part of clos? 11:11:54 minion: clos 11:11:55 clos: The Common Lisp Object System is based on generic functions, multiple inheritance, and declarative method combination. http://www.cliki.net/clos 11:12:43 elias` [n=me@194.81.255.254] has joined #lisp 11:13:14 isismelting: it's a question of degree. we could say that defstruct is rather not CLOS. But (class-of (make-my-struct)) gives something... 11:13:20 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E479B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:13:43 clos is an integral part of cl. 11:14:43 <_3b> hmm, old slime i have installed doesn'ts eem to like define-compiler-macro 11:16:36 in what way? 11:16:52 <_3b> actually, maybe i modified my copy, let me check that first... 11:16:53 mine seems to behave weird too 11:17:26 <_3b> it prints ARGUMENTS = NIL to the repl when getting the arglist for the minibuffer 11:17:28 it keeps printing ARGUMENTS = (SQUARE) 11:17:50 <_3b> ok, i guess it is not something i did then 11:17:50 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:17:56 maybe that's a forgotten debug code 11:18:07 <_3b> probably 11:18:43 <_3b> looks like it is specifically on define-compiler-macro, so probably easily missed 11:19:59 That's from me, I suppose. 11:20:13 I hacked in extended arglist display for d-compiler-macro recently 11:20:47 <_3b> yeah, seems to be still there if the git mirror i'm looking at is current 11:21:52 <_3b> tcr: want a reminder on the list, or is the report here good enough? 11:22:03 I'll fix it right away 11:22:34 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:45 <_3b> ok, it is in contrib/swank-arglists.lisp arglist-dispatch if that wasn't obvious already :) 11:22:59 it's already committed 11:23:04 <_3b> ok 11:24:00 <_3b> is there any official git mirror of slime? 11:24:38 i'd like official git non-mirror of slime 11:25:32 <_3b> that would be OK too, but you have to convince more devs to get one of those 11:25:34 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:25:35 There's a semi-official mercurial mirror 11:32:07 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-192.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:33:13 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D597.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:01 -!- antoni [n=user@30.pool85-53-12.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:40:57 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-117-240.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 11:42:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 11:43:13 -!- Chrononaut is now known as bma025 11:45:24 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has joined #lisp 11:52:00 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:52:24 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:56 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:00:36 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 12:04:24 -!- bma025 is now known as Chrononaut 12:06:45 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:40 sweemeng [n=sweemeng@60.50.60.243] has joined #lisp 12:14:32 josemanuel [n=josemanu@213.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:14:57 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E479B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:39 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087E76C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:43 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:29 cpape [n=user@p5484F93C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:08 r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 12:24:52 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 12:27:32 caliostro1 [n=caliostr@host-84-222-132-135.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 12:32:26 prabuinet [n=prabuine@117.193.195.181] has joined #lisp 12:32:35 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:32:57 who is Xach? 12:33:55 boh 12:34:19 prabuinet: Zach Beane 12:34:57 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:35:20 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:35:39 caliostro1: that's an, er, interesting first utterance on #lisp. 12:35:56 -!- ASau`` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:36:51 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:36:56 looks more like an exhalation 12:36:57 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:24 *schme* is reading the mudballs 3 post on planet lisp. It looks very nice (: 12:39:41 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 12:42:54 -!- prabuinet [n=prabuine@117.193.195.181] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 12:43:18 prabuinet [n=prabu@117.193.195.181] has joined #lisp 12:43:54 can anyone tell me where did i went wrong with these three macros in : http://paste.lisp.org/display/77415 12:44:38 bmaddala [n=bhaskar@c-71-224-160-209.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:55 <_3b> with-html-output doesn't expand macros, does it? 12:44:59 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:45:26 -!- cpape [n=user@p5484F93C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:45:55 _3b: yes it does not expand 12:45:56 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:24 prabuinet: You sound like someone from India. 12:46:54 beach: so? 12:47:29 prabuinet: Just a remark. Of all native speaking people I know, only Indians use "yes" together with a negative statement. 12:47:43 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:20 so, who is at the lisp conference this morning 12:48:58 prabuinet: What result are you getting from your macros that you are not expecting? 12:49:34 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 12:49:34 beach: ok 12:50:46 schme: i'm able to macroexpand each macro individualy without error. but when alpha-page is called at runtime it gives error 12:51:26 schme: as function :div is undefined 12:51:49 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:52:40 <_3b> you need to put a with-html-output form in the macro if i remember right (and possibly use a function instead of a macro as well) 12:54:05 <_3b> and specify the stream you bound in the outer call as the stream arg, so (with-html-output (*standard-output* *standard-output* ...) ...) in your case 12:54:12 beach: I'm not a native and I'd use also yes with a negative statement. Is that a question of mathematical mindset? 12:55:03 not P(x)? Yes, not P(x). 12:55:11 _3b: thanks, i will try using function and with-html-output 12:55:40 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:55:51 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 12:55:51 <_3b> macro might be OK, since it sounds like it does get expanded at some point, been a while since i tried to figure out how that was supposed tow ork, so don't remember exactly 12:56:34 Sartak [n=sartak@sartak.akrasiac.org] has joined #lisp 12:58:40 _3b: i think it would help me if there is anything wrong in my macro's syntax or rules 12:59:07 beach: notice that the form "does, doesn't it" or "doesn't, does it" is kind of like (not P(x)) or P(x), so the right answer would always be Yes. Since we want to be helpful, we add the true proposition after the right answer. 13:01:38 jao [i=jao@dhcp-18-190-9-87.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:03:21 <_3b> prabuinet: the problem is that your macros don't get expanded until with-html-output is already done parsing the form 13:04:02 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:52 <_3b> possibly the correct way to do that sort of thing is convert-tag-to-string-list, instead using a macro or nested function call 13:14:05 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.118.172] has joined #lisp 13:15:09 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:16:33 -!- vinleod [n=Vincent_@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 13:17:12 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 13:19:20 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:23 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 13:21:19 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-159-16.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 13:21:20 aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 13:21:28 hi dear lisper 13:21:34 s 13:21:37 hello rstandy` 13:21:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-48.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:22:07 pjb`: I don't know the background of it, but I think it is the same in French. 13:22:30 pjb`: you typically don't say "oui, ce n'est pas le cas" 13:23:30 beach: then we'd use "si". 13:23:56 N'est il pas bleu? Si. 13:24:25 sulo [n=sulo@p54A3E230.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:09 pjb`: hmm, I am trying to think of positive sentence that could have had that reply. 13:25:12 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 13:25:25 But what I mean is that there may be some evolution of the languages following the kind of thinking. If people are formed to mathematical and logical thinking they may make the language evolve toward a more formal syntax. 13:25:56 why when I use slime C-c C-k don't see changes in my file ? I added new function and still get " function foo is undefined." 13:26:18 pjb`: I see what you mean, but I don't think you can point to a particular people that would be different in this respect from other peoples. 13:26:24 Est il vrai qu'il n'est pas grand? Oui, ce n'est pas le cas. 13:26:35 pjb`: right, that's one. 13:27:12 MrSpec: is there an in-package form in your file? 13:27:12 Well, I think that Indian and French are more mathematician people than English or American. 13:27:24 dlowe, not should be ? 13:27:55 MrSpec: If you're trying to call it from the repl, the repl itself may have the wrong package 13:27:56 pjb`: interesting, could you elaborate on that? 13:28:05 ahh 13:28:21 so in te beginning of every file I'll should add package ? 13:29:14 pjb`: what make you think French or Indian people are more mathmatician? 13:29:25 rstandy`: both at the level of students, as in research. It seems to me that maths are taught more and earlier in France than in the US. And it seems to be that France has a very good level in mathematic research, at least relatively and proportially to the investment. 13:29:43 s/to be/to me/ 13:30:31 pjb`: and this is changing the French language? 13:31:11 pjb`: or the *spoken* language? 13:31:34 -!- caliostro1 [n=caliostr@host-84-222-132-135.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 13:31:36 Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:31:58 -!- jao [i=jao@dhcp-18-190-9-87.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:28 rstandy`: well, there's a feed back loop. It may come from the logical structure of French, or it may have impacted the evolution of French to make it a more logical language than it was at first. 13:32:50 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 13:33:05 *tmh* lurks 13:33:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:34:26 pjb`: this really interests me, do you have some examples of that assertion? 13:34:40 rstandy`: otherwise it's hard to say generally, at the level of the whole language, because it involves all the locutors, but I know that I have a way to compose by sentences that is most influenced by mathematics. 13:34:43 pjb`: I suspect most people find their native language "logical" and most non-native speakers do not. 13:34:57 -!- aggieben_ [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:35:20 *_3b* isn't sure native english speakers find it particularly logical 13:35:31 So basically the idea here is that france == planet vulcan? 13:35:34 beach: I think this is something that can be characterized objectively. Let's ask linguists and translators... 13:35:36 beach: and some people find their language logical only in a very perverted way 13:35:51 pjb`: er, let me rephrase that: I suspect a langauge is considered "logicial" by most of its native speakers, and not so by non-native speakers. 13:36:10 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:36:22 pjb`: maybe French is so flexible that allows to be more like mathematics, but maybe it doesn't require it 13:36:53 pjb`: what is your definition of a natural language being "logical"? 13:37:27 rstandy`: probably. I hear there are good French poets too. Unfortunately, I'm rather poetry-impaired. 13:37:38 what's the definition of logical? :) 13:37:42 I don't think many native English speaker would consider their language very logical. unless they consider mixing Germanic and French logic to be logical 13:37:47 pjb`: me too :-) 13:37:48 *speakers 13:38:23 english is quite logical from my point of view, though there is a lot of cruft... 13:38:29 *p_l* isn't a native speaker 13:38:34 cmm: Possibly. Though most native speakers of Swedish probably would, despite the fact that Swedish is a mixture of Nordic, German, and French. 13:38:53 p_l: tooth paste, tooth brush, dental floss? 13:38:56 beach, and Latin! (although that maybe qualifies as French) 13:39:05 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D597.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:39:09 p_l, I find Polish rather logical. :-) 13:39:15 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D597.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:16 pjb`: anyway I also would like to know if it could be a method for measuring the level of logical expressivity of a language 13:39:18 beach: That's silly. Swedish is the mother of all languages. 13:39:35 schme: Of course, yes. Sorry! :) 13:39:50 tic: Polish is like network-type database designed by a monkey on crack. It is logical, but in a *very* perverted way 13:39:53 beach: well, it's a multidimentional feature. I think that we can summarize it by saying that a logical language has a more precise model. That is, there's less ambiguities, less sentences in this language are ambiguous. Of course, since there's an finite number of sentences... 13:39:55 schme, how would you know, you don't speak Swedish... 13:40:02 p_l, :D 13:40:46 pjb`: Hmm, I consider the ambiguities in the French spoken langauge to be numerous, and in fact the basis of many commercials. 13:40:59 beach: that's not the point 13:41:12 You may have ambiguity at the level of the words, because a given word may have several meanings. You may have ambiguity at the level of the constructs, a given sentence can have several meaning. You can see that when trying to translate European laws written in English into French. 13:41:26 tic: we have be taught to understand it! 13:41:43 Aren't there more ambiguities in English? 13:41:43 *been 13:42:11 pjb`: Pretty sure that's the case, because any noun can be verbed. 13:42:13 tic: :D 13:42:16 pjb`: at least there is a rather fixed sentence structure... 13:42:54 tic: I woke up today listening to a japanese guy trying to speak danish. That was funny stuff ;) 13:42:55 a sentence structure at least rather fixed there is. 13:43:24 pjb`: afaik that structure is considered no 13:43:28 *incorrect 13:43:32 Or do I watch too much star wars? :-) 13:43:35 Anyway. it would seem to me that this mythical beast called french does not really exist out in wild life, where people play around with the french language as much as any other language ;) 13:43:41 schme: what was the name of that English trainer of MFF. Hes skånska was hilarious. 13:43:44 *His 13:43:54 pjb`: on the other hand, in polish, it is completely correct.... 13:44:08 beach: It would seem you asked me a football related question. Sorry. (: 13:44:33 schme: I see. I know nothing about football myself. That's why I asked. 13:44:42 MrSpec pasted "no-bindings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77416 13:45:06 could you say me why I got redefining no-bindings error ? 13:45:12 :( 13:45:21 well back to trying to install debian :) 13:45:32 "The constant NO-BINDINGS is being redefined (from ((T.T)) to 13:45:32 ((T.T)))" 13:46:12 MrSpec: constants must be eql. 13:46:28 ah ok thx 13:46:29 MrSpec: each time this program is loaded, a new list (in terms of eql) will be created. 13:46:30 Which is impossible across files. 13:47:15 The simpliest solution is to avoid defining constant for anything other than numbers, characters or symbols. Use a defparameter instead. 13:47:58 schme, woo, that must've sounded hillarious. 13:48:04 but now I am in package but got "The function PAT-MATCH is undefined. 13:48:04 [Condition of type UNDEFINED-FUNCTION]" 13:48:56 MrSpec: In what package are you? 13:49:11 (what is the binding of cl:*package* ?) 13:49:21 in REPL : TRANSLATOR> 13:49:34 !p 13:50:50 Perhaps it stopped loading the file after the first error, don't you think so? 13:51:39 but I dont get any error... 13:51:50 ;;;; Compile file /home/spec/lisp/rownania/rulebasedtranslator.li ... 13:51:51 ; compiling file "/home/spec/lisp/rownania/rulebasedtranslator.lisp" (written 22 MAR 2009 02:51:30 PM): 13:51:51 TRANSLATOR> 13:52:06 so everything is ok ? 13:52:12 When I do: (load "/tmp/p.lisp") (in-package :translator) (pat-match '(a ?x c) '(a b c)) ; I get ((?X . B)) 13:52:27 MrSpec: No, you didn't load the file. 13:52:34 Compiling doesn't load. 13:52:36 C-C C-k ? 13:52:39 compile and load... 13:52:45 (load (compile-file "rulebasedtranslator.lisp")) 13:53:12 In the logs you show above, I don't see a "Loading ..." line. 13:54:32 <_3b> after C-c C-k, did it say "Compilation finished: 0 errors 0 warnings ..." in the minibuffer? 13:55:20 now it freezes ehh something is wrong :S 13:55:25 <_3b> it only loads if there were no errors or warnings (except style warnings) 13:56:07 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1F7F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:29 _3b, no it didnt 13:56:32 brandelune [n=suzume@pl064.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:56:36 segv [n=mb@p4FC1F6AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:37 I got only compiling... and then Translator> 13:57:02 I'll restart emacs 13:57:10 <_3b> in the minibuffer (status line at bottom of window), not repl 13:57:42 MrSpec: ok, so did you replace defconstant by defparameter? 13:57:46 <_3b> if you got Translator> there, something is wrong 13:58:09 Perhaps he changed the package before. 13:58:19 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:58:27 ilc greets! 13:58:40 _3b, I got Tranlator in repl 13:59:02 <_3b> MrSpec: yeah, that is OK, teh compilation finished message doesn't go there though 13:59:20 wingo-tp: ILC greets back! which tutorial are you in? 13:59:46 lichtblau: the monads one -- yourself? 14:00:01 Duane's clpython debugging talk 14:00:06 ah cool 14:00:14 in minibuffer I have compiling /home.... 14:00:24 we just had an hour of haskell, it was interesting but i'm glad we've finally switched to lisp :) 14:01:16 hmm still got the function pat-match is undefined 14:01:40 <_3b> that compiling ... message never went away? 14:01:48 compilation unit finished 14:01:48 ; caught 4 STYLE-WARNING conditions 14:01:52 hmm, my haskell is pretty rusty. I'll have to see if I can grasp part two of monads later today even after skipping part one. 14:03:10 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has joined #lisp 14:03:17 MrSpec: why don't you try to LOAD your file? 14:03:23 Duane is a good speaker, so I wanted to see him live. Though it would be even more insightful if someone was here to put it into perspective compared to sbcl. 14:03:42 MrSpec: (load "/home/spec/lisp/rownania/rulebasedtranslator.lisp") 14:03:57 ah ok 14:04:01 sorry 14:04:26 i am thinking of going to the clos one -- i need to make guile's generics more powerful and pascal seems to be worth listening to 14:04:37 man, I know it's a lame, google findable question, but: what's the best way to set breakpoints with slime? 14:04:41 there are too many good things going on :) 14:04:59 works 14:05:02 lichtblau: I had a question for you but I can't remember it. Enjoy ILC 14:05:07 thanks very much! 14:05:08 I found the (break) form way, but I wonder if there are some other ways 14:05:10 <_3b> MrSpec: C-c C-k works for me on that file (with defparameter instead of defconstant), not sure what else to try 14:05:15 I like that they can do instruction-level stepping without any instrumentation. Apparently he has an ACL running there with debugging data built for the entire image, so he can put breakpoints anywhere. 14:05:30 _3b, I have defparameter 14:05:38 oh yes, now I can: did you do anything with my partial repeatable-cross-compiler-fasls stuff? 14:05:48 so my C-c C-k is wrong ? 14:05:53 lichtblau: wow, that is interesting. 14:05:55 wingo-tp: oh Andy Wingo! Let me say to you that your blog is very interesting! 14:06:16 hi rstandy`! you are very kind :) 14:06:20 wingo-tp: and you work on really coll stuff (Guile VM, gstreamer, ecc.) 14:06:52 wingo-tp: very pleased to meet you :-) 14:06:56 -!- sweemeng [n=sweemeng@60.50.60.243] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:07:01 and likewise :) 14:07:17 :-) 14:07:31 Krystof: sorry, I didn't, because I wanted to use it only for the relocation debugging. And then superhacker nyef came, looked at the code and immediately spotted the cold init bug for me. 14:07:46 heh 14:08:03 that's fine. I shall proceed from where I left off, then 14:09:26 -!- sulo [n=sulo@p54A3E230.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:09:29 lichtblau: we will rely on you to provide balance over there in Cambridge 14:10:47 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C98B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:47 Krystof: that will be hard to do. My ILC bag is full of: clozure ad. LispWorks ad. "Win ACL with Updates for 'the next 50 years'" contest ad. 14:12:00 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-2-104.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:12:25 well, it is America 14:12:37 maybe if you shout loudly that will help 14:13:31 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:14:14 lichtblau: out of curiousity: you've managed to get a "feel" for how things are going for the commercial players? (as in, tons or project, plates full and fully alive and kicking.) 14:14:26 lichtblau: is it at least a nice bag? 14:15:20 when I'd like to use few files for 1 program, I should write the same in-package in all files ? Is it enough ? or I should add (load "file2" ) ? 14:15:33 -!- dwave [n=ask@062016247065.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 14:16:21 MrSpec: in-package is solely about the default namespace for _reading_ your code 14:16:38 MrSpec: Yes, I find it's better to write in-package in each file. But put your defpackage forms in a single packages.lisp file that you load first. 14:16:42 if your files have code implementing actual functionality in them, they need to be loaded somehow 14:16:46 wingo-tp, that link in your blog post is dead, http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/bc-syntax-case.pdf 14:17:05 MrSpec: maybe you should read to get some idea 14:17:17 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:17:34 Krystof, ok I'll read 14:17:37 jewel_: i just checked, it seems that http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/ has been taken down or something 14:17:48 thx 14:18:44 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:44 wingo-tp, I'm shocked that psyntax can be considered beautiful, I've never had a good look at it, but 10 000 lines of code is daunting! 14:19:03 jewel_: it's only 2500 lines i think? 14:19:06 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-184-167.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:19:11 but yes i understand :) 14:21:23 wingo-tp, it could be that I counted generated code in the total at the time 14:22:22 jewel_: yeah i think the beautiful thing is the unexpanded version 14:22:26 that it is written in itself 14:22:34 but it does get hairy quickly 14:24:05 biab 14:25:18 *lichtblau* isn't a huge fan of linen bags, but for a linen bag, it's fairly okay 14:25:21 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:27:01 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@87.78.152.33] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:13 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 14:29:03 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 14:33:08 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 14:35:24 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.118.172] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:36:04 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:43:26 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:43:52 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:46:43 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:49:27 blbrown_lt [n=blbrown@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:31 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E477F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:36 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 14:52:07 dwave [n=ask@062016247065.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 14:53:13 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:53 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:57:45 -!- bmaddala [n=bhaskar@c-71-224-160-209.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:03:17 Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-98-142.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 15:04:36 g000001 [n=g000001@lq38.opt2.point.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:06:25 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:07 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E479B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 15:08:57 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-184-167.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 15:09:10 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:08 sepult [n=buggarag@87.78.184.167] has joined #lisp 15:14:04 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:14:15 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 15:15:21 Hi, can anyone suggest a good data structure to hold up to 10 million+ xyz records? I've been using arrays, but sometimes CLISP wont let me create an array of such size, depending on the amount of records. 15:15:46 try using an array of arrays, or just use another implementation 15:16:04 or use the FFI and C's malloc. 15:16:45 ah, thanks, Ill try multiple array's and see how that works out. 15:17:03 choice of data structures also depends on the access pattern 15:17:19 do different implimentations allow different sized arrays? 15:17:33 <_3b> array indices are fixnums, so you are limited by that 15:17:51 i see, thanks. 15:18:13 <_3b> most-positive-fixnum appears to be 16777215 in clisp, so that is max array size there 15:18:25 clhs array-dimension-limit 15:18:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ar_dim.htm 15:18:29 _3b: 24 bit fixnums? Oh, 32 bit. 15:19:14 <_3b> yeah, array-dimension-limit is the proper way to check that limit from code 15:19:20 thom__ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:38 <_3b> since it isn't rquired to give you all of the fixnum range if it doesn't want to 15:20:36 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:20:38 'morning 15:20:51 _3b: SSE intrinsics coming around soon to SBCL (: 15:21:45 <_3b> pkhuong: cool, something that needs to be used explicitly, or will compiler use them automatically? 15:23:54 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:11 I don't believe in autoparallelisation. I only have operations that can be used along with normal CL code (like SAPs). Using them in some standard block functions would of course be just a SMOP. 15:25:14 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:46 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:26:29 that should provide a nice boost. 15:26:41 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 15:30:27 i'm trying to use ltk with lisp in a box on win32. can anyone tell me where the package should go? there's a "packages" directory in C:\\progra~1\\lispbox, but it isn't picking it up. 15:31:03 lispbox probably has a directory where it keeps the .asd files for the systems it is aware of. 15:31:38 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:32:14 on *nix systems, usually a symlink between the asd file in your package folder and the systems folder for your lisp is enough to register the system with lisp. 15:32:32 well, that was a sneaky bug: genesis decides whether to export constants to the runtime by checking whether they're exported from SB-VM. 15:32:34 the folders are listed as the value of asdf:*central-registry* 15:37:11 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:18 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:37:46 -!- nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:38:01 nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:28 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:38:31 koning_r1bot: you could also push the location of ltk onto the list held by asdf:*central-registry* 15:40:54 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:26 wow, just installed sbcl and it's array-dimension-limit is 536870909, quite a difference from CLISP's 16777215 15:41:52 sbcl is definitely the official implementation of #lisp 15:42:08 although ccl seems to pull up in second place. 15:42:27 -!- bbe [n=bbe@221.226.128.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:42:28 hmm yeah.. but i was expecting stuff like this to be setup by lisp in a box; asdf:*central-registry* only has "C:". http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/lispbox/ mentions (under "Special features") a smarter ASDF, but it doesn't say how... i guess i'll just check the source 15:42:38 indeed, that alone will make me switch 15:42:50 <_3b> diog3n3s: use a 64bit lisp, and you'll probably get a much larger limit :) 15:43:00 thanks 15:43:08 ill give that a try 15:43:08 koning_r1bot: I've never used lisp in a box. 15:43:21 <_3b> diog3n3s: that assumes you run a 64 bit OS though 15:43:24 but it looks to me like it's not setting the central-registry correctly. 15:43:47 i'm not even sure that "C:" is a valid path specifier in lisp on windows. 15:44:30 Well, you can use \\.\C I think or something similar 15:44:48 array-dimension-limit => 1152921504606846973 15:45:04 <_3b> #P"c:/foo" is fine in sbcl 15:45:05 and you only need some more memory 15:45:13 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B6EE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:45:27 nice! that is more like what i'm looking for :) 15:46:26 that's quite a lot, what kind of data are you storing there? 15:46:26 koning_r1bot: in my enironment, where my lisp is managed by clbuild, this is the init value of asdf:*central-registry* when I start up: 15:46:31 CL-USER> asdf:*central-registry* 15:46:31 That's also a lie on current machines. 15:46:33 (#P"/home/fade/SourceCode/lisp/clbuild/systems/") 15:46:49 note the closing separator in the path element. 15:47:18 lidar data 15:47:39 certain flight-lines have 100million+ points 15:48:03 though a typical lidar file will have about 5 - 10 million records 15:48:16 diog3n3s: is it important to have all of that in single chunk of memory? 15:48:45 not all the time 15:48:56 perhaps a persistence approach like elephant would be better than keeping everything in an in memory array. 15:49:18 diog3n3s: partitioning the dataset into smaller values would be probably a good idea 15:49:19 mmap, the best of both worlds. 15:49:22 <_3b> did sbcl ever get an official wayto mmap data as a lisp array? 15:49:30 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:07 <_3b> p_l: if it fits, why complicate the code? 15:50:45 _3b: Depends on exact operations, sometimes partitioning might improve speed too 15:50:48 if an active flight-line could have a hundred million plot points, how long will it fit? 15:50:57 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 15:50:57 _3b: if you tell me how to mmap a file to a page and somehow be able to use the page that's immediately before, sure. AFAICT, there's no way to do that posixly, and I've been told OpenBSD makes sure to add unmapped guard pages around mmapped regions. 15:51:13 that is probably a good idea. What i will need to do eventually is run though all the points and compare them to their neighbors, in order to change some values of points depending on their neighbors 15:51:33 -!- serfurj` is now known as serfurj 15:52:19 i could partition the points into regions possibly to lower it's memory needs 15:52:34 <_3b> pkhuong: ah, i must have been thinking about something else then 15:53:31 -!- nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 15:53:35 nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:06 -!- nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:54:12 am reading about elephant now and it seems like possibly a good way to go for this. 15:54:15 nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:19 diog3n3s: I've had good luck with elephant + postgres 15:55:31 but I haven't built anything with as many records as you're talking about. 15:55:49 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:55:52 For that kind of data, I'd refrain from relational db, though 15:56:55 well, elephant is deeply memory cached. he could do his data segmentation by query. 15:57:27 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 15:57:29 elephant + bdb, if so 15:57:46 TC? 15:58:09 _dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:25 sure, but the bindings are horrible at the moment (but they work) 15:59:17 I never find time/energy to sit down and finish :) 16:00:10 arrrr, i'm booting to linux 16:00:38 that sounds like a good sol'n to me. :) 16:01:26 sol'n? :) 16:01:39 i assumed solution :) 16:02:00 milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.162] has joined #lisp 16:02:08 i guess I'm starting to suffer from contraction-itis. yeah. "solution" 16:02:28 I try to remember that "assume" makes "ass" of "u" and "me", so I decided to ask :D 16:02:38 =) 16:03:15 too true :) 16:03:39 diog3n3s: if you are not license constrained, Elephant + BDB or directly going for BDB might be a good idea. Also, TokyoCabinet, but there is no "Lispy" API, only direct C->Lisp translation available 16:04:37 ah thanks, i am not constrained in that way, i appreciate the suggestions. 16:05:01 i will give those options a shot. 16:05:06 prototyping in elephant has been good for me. obviously compute load will dictate the ultimate form you deliver. 16:12:57 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 16:15:10 -!- alobar [n=alobar@student164-62.hampshire.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:16:57 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:57 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087E76C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:05 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087E76C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:09 jlf` [n=user@adsl-76-200-138-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:00 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:14 -!- prabuinet [n=prabu@117.193.195.181] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:23:20 though when it comes to storing data like that, I suspect TC would have an advantage :D 16:24:13 that may be true, but it sounds like in the prototyping stage, TC might be a bit of a pita. 16:24:26 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:25:00 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-116-220.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:25:05 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-226.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:25:16 Fade: It all depends on the workload. Frankly speaking, the first thing I thought about calculating data from lidar scans was fortran >_> 16:26:01 heh 16:26:25 yes, i thought that too initially :) 16:26:29 I guess the fact that I set up a MVS system today doesn't help my fortran reference ;-) 16:27:11 i think the ancillary downsides to a fortran system probably solve that problem in favour of compiled lisp, these days. 16:27:13 that is what the company i work for develops in 16:27:32 not that I do a lot of numeric computation anymore, but compiled lisp is fast enough for rock and roll. 16:28:07 at least once the system has been profile and the compiler sufficiently hinted with type data. 16:28:58 Fade: Yes, but FORTRAN was quite optimized towards this also in terms of "thinking" :D 16:29:34 otoh, most of the examples I had ever seen were at most in FORTRAN 77, sometimes in earlier versions... 16:29:50 fortran gives me a headache. 16:30:06 although if you can actually think in fortran, I'm told it's still a very lucrative niche. 16:30:23 Fade: Think about what happens when you can code COBOL 16:30:32 good lord. 16:31:06 there's a reason why I set up a mainframe emulator in the morning 16:31:10 you are overcome with brain tumours? 16:31:35 Fade: and have a fat wallet :D 16:32:05 FORTRAN on the other hand is very nice skill in HPC 16:32:30 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 16:33:09 p_l: the context switch between lisp and fortran must be seriously whiplash inducing. 16:33:26 Fade: yeah, but fortran has its merits, I heard 16:33:56 the single merit of fortran has always been it's legendary speed /w numeric processing. 16:34:18 that said, guy steele has been working on a fortran implementation called fortress for years, so wtf do I know. 16:34:21 lol 16:34:25 Fade: there's also the thing that it's easy to make it parallel on SMP machines 16:35:19 well, for the record, when thinking machines was looking at a language for massive parallelism, they chose lisp, and wrote other language implementations on top of that. ;) 16:36:14 http://itpm.msu.su/mysql/Manual_chapter/manual_Compatibility.html#Missing_Foreign_Keys <--- I know it's outdated manual, but I guess it shows why I recommend staying away from MySQL :) 16:36:31 i hate mysql. 16:37:06 in our colocation business, we have so many basic lamp clients, it seems like I'm forever recovering somebody's fucked up tables. ;P 16:37:16 Fade: what company? 16:37:22 walled networks. 16:37:25 www.walled.net 16:38:18 well, I'd tell them to switch to a real database... :P 16:38:28 you think I don't? 16:38:35 <_dulouz> speaking of hosting, does anyone have any recommendations on a hosting company where i can set up hunchentoot? 16:38:58 _dulouz: tech.coop is lisp friendly 16:39:11 if not tech.coop, I recommend getting a VPS 16:39:37 well SBCL is now working where CLISP would not with the increased array-dimension-limit anyway :) which allows me to convert the LAS files to CSV, which solved my immediate problem :P 16:39:52 diog3n3s: cool 16:39:54 CSV!? 16:39:57 lol 16:40:07 for import into another program :) 16:40:21 a hundred million comma separated datapoints, huh? :) 16:40:24 that's funny. 16:40:24 p_l: before buying a vps, i'd recommend trying that the intended lisp actually works on the virtualization solution 16:40:32 split into multiple files 16:40:51 H4ns: Yes, I know. But that's what trial period is, isn't it? 16:40:54 p_l: i had a tough time when i tried a vps hoster 2 years ago and finally settled for a physical box. 16:41:04 p_l: if you have time to burn, sure. 16:41:22 our outfit doesn't do vps' but if you need a discrete box, our rates are good. 16:41:29 <_dulouz> thanks for the tech.coop link. i'll take a peak. i've checked out a few random VPS options. 16:41:32 most people buying lidar data request them in CSV format for some reason 16:41:56 H4ns: well, that's true about any project... I remember when I started out with RoR, there wasn't basically any specialised hosting solution and VPSes were still expensive 16:42:04 <_dulouz> Fade: yeah, i checked your site real quick. I think it's a bit heavy duty for my needs :) 16:42:05 probably because they use excel as a viewer 16:42:09 usually with about 2 million records per file 16:42:35 -!- thom__ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:42:54 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D597.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:43:04 Fade: Excel afaik has a limit of 2^16 records per sheet 16:43:39 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:53 on the other hand, they might request CSV because they are worried about writing their own parsers for whatever the supplier uses :) 16:44:08 that's only 65536 cells. 16:44:17 -!- Malbolgne [n=baal@81.227.153.49] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 16:44:25 p_l: yes i think that is it 16:44:39 and CSV can be imported into any GIS program 16:44:49 Fade: The reason is that if you want more records, even Microsoft will tell you that Excel is not the thing you want :D 16:44:53 Fade: SPSS, otoh... 16:45:00 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E477F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 16:45:01 as someone said, SPSS is Excel on crack 16:45:16 i'm seriously unfamiliar with the microsoft world. 16:45:56 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:45:59 Fade: Well, MS Office isn't that bad... the usual bug ends being PEBKAC 16:46:22 i've only ever used windows to double-click on a game icon. 16:46:31 Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.157.0] has joined #lisp 16:46:55 Well, I learned how to properly use MS Office due to Unix mentality 16:47:10 it's kind of a paradox 16:47:25 emacs -> TeX -> pdf 16:47:26 lol 16:48:48 Fade: LaTeX helps with proper usage of Word in immense ways... 16:49:15 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:22 namely, I learned not to treat the document as a piece of paper 16:49:49 arphid [n=matt@69.162.118.230] has joined #lisp 16:52:31 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:02 seems to me, shipping such data in a predefined postgresdb would be nearly ideal. 16:53:18 but I guess they already have this csv culture to contend with. 16:53:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:54:00 Fade: I'd suspect postgres would be a bad idea if you are going to do work on it using VMS/I64 using Rdb and SAS ;-) 16:54:02 Yes, it is ingrained it seems. The LAS format was developed only recently. And software that supports the format are quite expensive. 16:54:55 Good evening. 16:55:03 diog3n3s: I hope LAS is not XML based? :) 16:55:07 evening beach 16:55:10 no 16:55:19 it is a binary format 16:55:39 uff 16:56:00 well, the thing is, if you already have it in some rdb, then pushing it into another one is only a matter of defining an odbc pump in a handful of lines of ${insert_high_level_language_here} 16:56:46 it is just a header and then encoded point records 16:56:52 but this sounds like the obscurity of format is a profit center, so perhaps this is all just hippie hand wringing. ;) 16:56:55 Fade: SAS quite possibly could read from CSV directly and do calculations then dumping it to Rdb (and it's product name) 16:57:49 yes it seems that way, though the format is quite easy to decode, and having a standard seems to be the correct way in the long run. 16:58:06 diog3n3s: write a format reader in lisp. 16:58:52 that is what i'm working on atm. 16:58:59 *nod* 16:59:01 -!- jewel_ is now known as jewel 16:59:14 it can read and parse them fairly well now with SBCL 16:59:34 to the limit of the array-dimension-limit 16:59:49 and write them out to CSV 16:59:50 -!- Sartak [n=sartak@sartak.akrasiac.org] has left #lisp 17:00:32 there's at least one csv package on common-lisp.net 17:00:49 -!- arphid [n=matt@69.162.118.230] has left #lisp 17:01:02 yes, that might be better, i'm just using format 17:01:20 which might be a bit slow i think 17:02:04 -!- SeveredCross [n=bojanr@about/csharp/regular/severedcross] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:03:43 how have you dealt with escaping? 17:04:09 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.157.0] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:47 krystof: how do you mean? 17:07:16 i did something like this: (with-open-file (out outfile :direction :output :if-exists :supersede :if-does-not-exist :create) 17:07:16 Krystof: I guess he has it easy as he only uses numerical data :) 17:07:19 (let ((*print-pretty* nil)) 17:07:19 (loop for i from 0 to (- (gethash 'num-point-records header) 1) do 17:07:19 (format out (formatter "~{~,3f~^,~}~%") 17:08:38 -!- Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.157.0] has quit ["I saw it in a cartoon, but I'm pretty sure I can do it"] 17:08:57 ah. fair enough. 17:09:37 rstandy` pasted "Define render-widget-body method for a Weblocks widget which uses with-html" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77418 17:10:32 is there some Weblocker who could help me understand why I'm not able to print a slot value from a widget? 17:10:51 lep [n=lep@i5387A473.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:11:34 -!- dwave [n=ask@062016247065.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 17:14:13 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192016.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:03 c|mell [n=cmell@x250014.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:21:07 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 17:21:15 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:49 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:24:24 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:24:29 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:41 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:41:30 ejs [n=eugen@86-71-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:19 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:54 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:15 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:50:24 aggieben_ [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 17:51:44 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:52:11 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.43.232] has joined #lisp 17:52:54 TimRan [i=tim@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-3fc24b4f30162bc2] has joined #lisp 17:54:45 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.132.71] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:31 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D597.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:42 phf [n=phf@31-33-162.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:59:02 -!- enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:59:26 -!- phf [n=phf@31-33-162.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:00:00 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 18:01:18 sulo [n=sulo@p57B49768.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:01:56 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:02:34 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 18:02:55 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 18:04:16 phf [n=phf@31-33-162.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:06:56 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp209-147.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:07:09 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:58 can I get the, err, current value of the optimize-declaration at compiler-macro expansion time? 18:08:12 wow, conjure is really well-thought-out. 18:08:55 -!- aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:08 -!- lep is now known as lep|afk 18:10:55 -!- phf [n=phf@31-33-162.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:11:03 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 18:14:39 specifically, I want to expand into different code depending on (optimize (safety n)) declarations, for some code that box pieces of foreign memory 18:15:55 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:16:05 not portably 18:16:17 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:58 in sbcl, it'd be possible with sb-cltl2 18:17:27 Headed to Boston. See some of you at ILC 18:17:40 billstclair: see you there 18:17:42 other implementations might also have cltl2 environment support, but you'd need to read their documentation to see where it's hidden 18:17:48 dlowe: ok 18:17:51 bye 18:17:52 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 18:18:55 swank should deal with that 18:19:06 jsnell: thanks, looking it up 18:19:19 what keywords am I looking for, btwe? 18:19:39 (I'm currently using LW) 18:19:50 on, you said it, environment support 18:20:02 s/on/oh/ 18:20:07 -!- jlf` [n=user@adsl-76-200-138-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:20:34 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 18:21:07 declaration-information 18:23:12 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 18:28:38 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:28:39 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:12 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:31:50 -!- ejs [n=eugen@86-71-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:34:43 emarsden [n=user@mir31-3-82-234-52-44.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:57 wee. (funcall (lambda (x y) (pxor (%make-sse-value x y) (sb-vm::%make-sse-value 42 45))) 1 2) => # 18:38:26 aggieben__ [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:42 -!- lep|afk is now known as lep 18:40:14 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:40:35 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:00 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 18:42:17 pkhuong: so, I know you don't believe in autoparallelization, but... wouldn't it be fun? 18:43:17 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:21 ejs [n=eugen@86-71-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:27 dwave [n=ask@062016247065.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 18:44:02 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:57 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:24 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:47 Krystof: maybe an in-between. Explicit annotations, but lots of automated generation/testing. I even worked on something like that already: generation of memory-optimised iterative kernels from recursive definitions. 18:49:30 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit ["HULK ANGRY! HULK DISCONNECT!"] 18:49:47 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:50:52 generation is almost always a bad idea... you shouldn't generate loads of code, in order to say just a little bit of it (macros make that nicer) 18:51:11 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:51:36 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B7A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:42 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:53:11 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:56:40 -!- aggieben_ [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:58:04 They need a better name than SSE-VALUE. 18:58:11 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:58:35 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 18:58:49 -!- dwave [n=ask@062016247065.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 19:02:40 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:10 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:07:12 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:41 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:14:28 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 19:16:15 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.213.204] has joined #lisp 19:18:07 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:58 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:47 cads [n=max@adsl-154-105-103.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:16 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:44 -!- ejs [n=eugen@86-71-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:31:43 Someone send me a copy of _Principes d'implantation de Scheme et Lisp_. 19:31:51 Hardcopy. :> 19:33:08 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 19:33:43 oh lisp in small pieces 19:34:02 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B7A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:35:29 Quadrescence: get a project on http://www.getacoder.com/, and use amazone.com to get LiSP. 19:35:49 or amazon.com 19:36:19 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:09 Actuellement indisponible. :( 19:37:54 Try lmet.fr then. 19:38:49 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:28 In emacs slime, how do you bring back the repl buffer? 19:39:33 pjb`: looks like they have it there. :) 19:39:41 emma: M-x slime-repl RET 19:39:44 what is it called? I am doing C-x b but i don't see it. 19:39:55 pjb`: Even if it's already started? 19:39:58 Yes. 19:40:03 okay thank you. 19:40:05 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 19:40:08 C-c C-z from lisp buffer 19:40:18 pjb`: Any reason why you told me to get a project on getacoder? 19:40:33 Quadrescence: to get some money, I thought it was the problem. 19:40:49 It sort of is. :) 19:40:54 *slime-repl * 19:41:00 pjb`: Have you used getacoder much? 19:41:08 (i.e., received money) 19:41:18 Well, there's not a lot of lisp jobs there... 19:41:25 More like php and website cloning... 19:41:26 c-x b *slr 19:41:56 contrib? 19:42:32 Fade: yes that did it, thank you. 19:42:41 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:55 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 19:43:19 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:43:35 Doesn't it make a lot more sense to run emacs in -nw ? 19:43:51 It does, if you want the terminal when DISPLAY is defined. 19:43:56 If you don't run emacs in -nw then I don't even see the point of emacs, there are lots of good gui editors on linux. 19:44:09 -!- diracdelta1 [n=diracdel@67.180.132.112] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 19:44:11 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:44:16 strange logic 19:44:18 emacs in a terminal is still millions of time better than anything else. 19:44:44 I don't understand the premise behind the question. 19:44:48 it's not really strange logic, i just have no idea why they ever too emacs out of the terminal. 19:45:09 if it's not in the terminal then I cant access it remotely very easily. 19:45:11 emacs runs on platforms without a reasonable terminal. 19:45:17 like windows 19:45:30 I think I'll stay out of this discussion. 19:45:31 look at tramp for remote editing. 19:45:37 would you say that if you use linux then you should run it in the terminal? 19:46:05 i think if I'm looking at an editor all day, i'd like nice fonts and a reasonable fontlock. 19:46:06 *_3b* turns off the scrollbar, menu, toolbar, and just uses the gui part of emacs for opening lots of windows 19:46:08 ymmv 19:46:30 it's so cludgey 19:46:53 *p_l* left menu because sometimes he doesn't remember the command 19:47:16 do any of you use lisp but dont' care for emacs? 19:47:20 the fact that emacs is a lisp that just happens to manifest an editor as its primary feature probably doesn't make sense to you. 19:47:32 <_3b> p_l: ctrl-right click has menus if you need 'em once in a while 19:47:42 i figured that without menus i'll memorize commands faster 19:47:54 emma: sounds to me like you'd be happier with cusp in eclipse. 19:48:08 very possible. 19:48:26 I really did want to learn lisp, not emacs, but it seems like part of the deal or something. 19:48:43 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 19:48:46 but i do have emacs going and slime so.. 19:48:49 people who learn emacs well tend to evolve a very efficient workflow with it. if you're resistant to redefining your workflow, perhaps it isn't the right thing for you. 19:49:10 jsnell: any idea why xmm15 is left out of the rotation in x86-64? Only to always have a zeroed-out register? 19:49:59 that said, emacs is pretty much a canonical example of the manifestation of an application written in lisp. 19:50:46 when i think of lisp i don't think of emacs. I think of maxima. 19:50:48 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:50:55 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has quit [] 19:50:58 Autocad. 19:51:03 i've never really understood why people find emacs a hurdle. it has a built in tutorial that takes ten minutes to run through. 19:51:48 pkhuong: yes, I think that's the only reason 19:51:49 Fade: maybe because you have used it so long that you no longer see how ad hoc it is. 19:51:56 well, i did say "a" cannon example. 19:52:13 emma: with which editor you were born? 19:52:17 what do you mean by ad-hoc? 19:52:55 emma: on the other hand, few environments would let you take advantage of it and become more efficient every year for about 30 years. 19:52:58 everything is so arbitrary and byzantine, no doubt it does literally everything, because it's all piled in there. 19:53:11 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:21 emma: what is your point? 19:53:59 things often seem arbitrary and byzantine to those who do not understand them 19:54:09 there are a few principles that you just have to learn, but they're consistently applied throughout the application. 19:54:13 yes i realize that, that's why im sticking with it. 19:54:59 jsnell: I'll try and see if I can make it emit code like we do to zero GPRs out. 19:55:19 Also, humans are excellent when it comes to dealing with arbitrariness. 19:55:42 What counts, in my opinion of course, is how productive we manage to become. 19:55:48 but it is interesting how often emacs gets complained about, considering the whole spectrum of actual conceptual hurdles a newbie has in learning lisp... 19:55:50 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:55:53 at least here in irc. 19:57:04 Fade: but newbies are more concerned about superficial things than they are about being productive. I think it's a generation thing. I mean, look at young people sending SMSs. It would drive me crazy. 19:57:22 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 19:57:24 beach: SMSes help me be more productive ;) 19:57:39 emma: in my environment everything from my shell to my web browser obeys emacs command keys, so it's a force amplifier for my whole workflow. 19:58:05 pkhuong: That might be true, but still, the keyboard makes me want to read a book instead and send an email later on. 19:58:20 Fade: judging from discussions in local groups of programmers... people have a tendency to bash emacs without ever having trying to learn it... so if they are being "forced" to go with sbcl+emacs as the default combo there might be some psychological effect of: "I've hated this for so many years... there must be something to that." 19:58:32 to the extent that I get very annoyed by apps that don't obey emacs command keys. 19:59:04 benny: I guess. I tend not to associate with developers outside The Church. 19:59:06 lol 19:59:10 ;-) 19:59:23 Yes I really am open to the reality that it wouldn't exist so long and have such a following if it were not objectively good. I'm just saying, as newcomer, emacs is not a 'joy' by any means, it's kind of unattractive, and it does nothing to help make Lisp welcoming. 19:59:37 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 19:59:50 emma: you haven't used these attractive IDE enough. 19:59:57 when I asked about a Lisp IDE people told me to go with a commercial evaluation product and later switch to slime 20:00:15 One of you lisp gurus should think about making a nice REPL program for lisp like DrScheme is for Scheme. That would make Lisp more attractive and accessible to a new generation. 20:00:15 emma: We don't care that much about the crows that needs to be seduced by attractiveness, but more about people caring about productivity. 20:00:18 emma: well, as an objective experiment, try using your normal text editor and a separate repl to test your code, and then re-evaluate how much emacs does to make lisp a welcoming environment. 20:00:29 dwave [n=ask@212251243176.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:00:42 Fade: Okay. 20:00:54 as it stands, emacs+slime+sbcl is hands down the single best programming powertool I have. 20:00:57 emma: how many lisp environments have you actually tried? 20:01:16 emma: why should we cater to the new generation which has repeatedly shown that it doesn't give a damn about productivity or elegance? 20:01:19 when I compare it to what's available in python and javascript and perl and C, it's just a god by comparison. 20:01:58 beach: because of network externalities. 20:02:06 WHAT!? emacs+slime+sbcl better than gcc+valgrind+gdb+nano+man pages 20:02:08 ? ;) 20:02:11 emma: ? 20:02:20 emma: if you want to see somebody who knows the environment well working in lisp, look at marco baringer's slime movie. 20:02:40 emma: What Fade said. It's really impressive. 20:02:50 beach: In economics there is a concept of 'network externality' Here's an example: If you were the only person in the world with a cell phone, you could still do some stuff with it, but it would have much less value than when many people have cellphones as well. 20:03:20 emma: There are enough Lispers in the world that like Emacs + SLIME thank you very much. 20:03:27 That comparision does not quite work. 20:03:32 This happens in programming langauge communities also. When you have a more people sharing and interested in the same thing, there is more value in it for each person. More libraries, more documentation, more employment. All that. 20:03:32 (: 20:03:38 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 20:03:52 Yes well I'm just giving you a reason to care about if anyone new does. 20:04:08 But.. we already have a *really good* environment ? 20:04:27 emma: I think the Lisp "community" is much better of to be more selective than that. 20:04:33 well, emacs+slime is pretty good. genera was *really good* 20:04:34 :) 20:04:48 I don't see squeak smalltalk winning tons of libraries, etc. because it has a pretty UI and good environment. 20:05:01 Fade: out of curiosity, what made genera so much better? 20:05:07 I'm not really so audacious that I would come in here and argue with you all about if emacs is really good. I assume by default it is good or you all wouldn't use it, and you have a lot more experience than me. 20:05:15 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:05:16 jlf`: well, the OS was written in lisp. 20:05:27 every display object in the environment was contextually mapped. 20:05:29 I'm just telling you my subjective experience as a new comer is that it's awkward. And it sounds like I'm not the only person whos ever said that. 20:05:31 emma: emacs is not so hot, but emacs + slime makes it very nice for lisping :) 20:05:39 Okay :) 20:05:42 emma: You kind of already argued about that, and questioned the traditional wisdome here. 20:05:55 emma: you aren't the only person who has said that, as I mentioned before. 20:06:17 I think things tend to be awkward to newcomers regardless (: 20:06:35 but from the perspective of people who know, it seems odd to us that this is the thread newcomers seem to choose to pull at, because it's so trivial compared to the real work of learning how to think in lisp. 20:06:39 Well have any of you ever seen the DrScheme app for PLT scheme? 20:06:40 I remember trying out that visual studio things on the ms os. That was very awkward. 20:06:43 that depends on the previous experience 20:06:44 when I started with emacs and slime I was excited because seeing mbaringer doing his thing looked awesome. 20:06:46 emma: Yes. It is very awkward. 20:06:50 That really makes programing in scheme nice. 20:07:00 emma: One of my colleages once said the only way we can make progress is to be uncomfortable, so we have to get used to being uncomfortable. I believe he is right, and I don't care much about people who always want to feel comfortable. 20:07:14 You guys are competing with languages like python that don't require you to use something like emacs just to play with it. 20:07:17 emma: yeah, and there are a few commercial products that come pretty close to that. 20:07:25 emma: We aren't competing :) 20:07:43 emma: There are plenty of alternatives to Emacs. Have tried one of those? 20:07:48 Not in a way but in a way you are. Or should be. 20:07:49 emma: What schme said. What makes you feel we are competing? 20:07:51 emma: and .. you don't really need emacs just to play with lisp. It is just a very nice environment. Also for python development emacs is very nice. 20:08:05 emma: I've written many large systems in python, and I choose lisp when I have the option. 20:08:09 emma: python + emacs being nicer than python + ooh I dunno.. notepad ? 20:08:18 emma: Get over it. We are not in the same business, no matter how much you would like for that to be the case. 20:08:23 ultimately the barrier to entry may be a bit higher, but the payoff is huge. 20:08:28 Well I really do respect you guys. I'm not here to be a rable rouser. I'm going to back off of this convo before I get a bad reputation. 20:08:33 emma: For example, http://phil.nullable.eu/ 20:08:38 and yes, I use emacs for python. ;) 20:08:47 emma: I'm afraid that's a bit late. 20:09:00 emma: We all have bad reputations ;) 20:09:12 *stassats`* is using emacs for almost everything 20:09:19 -#define WEAK_POINTER_SIZE 4 /* 0x4 */ 20:09:19 #define DOUBLE_FLOAT_SIZE 4 /* 0x4 */ 20:09:19 +#define WEAK_POINTER_SIZE 4 /* 0x4 */ 20:09:25 oh, very funny, genesis-2 20:09:36 *beach* too, including for reading email. 20:09:38 emma: http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 20:10:01 *guaqua* would like to read his imap, but can't get ssl work :( 20:10:18 beat it with a stick. 20:10:30 i probably should, lazy ssl 20:10:57 emma: that movie really exemplifies what a good workflow in emacs looks like. 20:12:02 good workflow vs. real workflow where one gets distracted by IRC non-stop. 20:12:04 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.73] has joined #lisp 20:12:06 marco's slime setup and ancillary environment files are available. 20:12:15 just google for them. 20:12:45 I don't think much is applicable to recent slime versions. 20:12:47 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has joined #lisp 20:13:14 i think i used his autocomplete settings, and possibly paredit? it was so long ago now I can't remember. 20:13:38 yeah you can't copy paste what is in his video 20:13:47 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:13:51 but you can see how one uses slime to get an idea if you want to pursue it further 20:16:05 I pretty much started using emacs because of that video, so it's definitely worth watching. 20:16:06 I personally find it too bad that he starts with the assumption that you are using a remote Lisp system. I have never done that, and neither do my students, so it is distracting from the rest. 20:16:28 web developers and high-powered consultants probably do it all the time, though 20:16:34 -!- serfurj [n=user@216-188-253-113.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has left #lisp 20:16:47 beach: heh. that was one of the things about the movie that I really liked. 20:16:49 -!- TimRan [i=tim@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-3fc24b4f30162bc2] has quit ["leaving"] 20:17:17 I am not saying it is not useful. I am just saying that for an introductory thing, it was distracting. 20:17:39 that's probably true. 20:18:03 i have a feeling it was because at the time, maybe ppc sbcl wasn't ready for primetime. 20:18:24 Ah, interesting explanation! 20:18:51 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:18:53 Someone should do one video just about emacs perhaps, I remember being blown away with his macro example for instance. That's a good way of attracting people. 20:19:12 screencasts are an excellent thing, in general. 20:19:29 one video just about emacs? that sounds like a week worth of footage :-P 20:19:37 lol 20:19:44 xan: That was a very interesting thing that I wanted to show my students, because that's how I do things all the time. 20:19:45 well, you can start with one ;) 20:19:54 benny: indeed... http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki?EmacsScreencasts 20:20:01 org-mode has nice screencasts... and so do a few completion screencasts 20:20:36 beach: yes, it's one of those things you end up using a lot and wondering how you lived without 20:20:46 <_dulouz> how long is that movie? i haven't ever watched it 20:20:52 xan: indeed! 20:20:55 <_dulouz> the slime.mov i mea 20:21:00 _dulouz: about 60 minutes. 20:21:04 <_dulouz> ok, thanks 20:21:44 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has left #lisp 20:21:58 -!- blbrown_lt [n=blbrown@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:56 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has joined #lisp 20:26:58 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:03 phf [n=phf@31-33-162.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 20:27:22 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:40 -!- phf [n=phf@31-33-162.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 20:30:56 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:32:17 jfactor [n=jfactor@student167-200.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 20:33:51 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:54 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:37:51 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251243176.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 20:44:10 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:11 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:44:41 Hmm this package lock violation bug is mysterious. I first thought it's because of the %COMPILER-DEFUN appearing before the (SETF FDEFINITION), but that won't fix it. 20:45:38 which bug is that? 20:46:02 reported yesterday on sbcl-devel 20:46:47 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 20:46:54 Why does this code return nil? http://paste.lisp.org/display/77427 20:47:54 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-013-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:01 because you're modifying constant data? 20:48:33 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-013-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:49:17 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-013-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:18 jsnell: Which one is constant data? I am not sure what you mean by constant data. 20:49:58 tomoyuki28jp: anything defined by a quote is constant data. 20:50:08 beach: oh, thanks 20:50:55 basically a CL implementation is allowed to assume that you don't modify such data 20:51:08 tomoyuki28jp: As a rule of thumb, anything produced by the reader is constant 20:51:20 in this case your implementation is presumably constant-folding the call to EQUAL 20:51:56 which is ok since both arguments are literals 20:52:28 s/constant/literal/g in the above, I guess 20:52:49 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:53:41 -!- _dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:53:53 this works. http://paste.lisp.org/display/77427#1 20:54:05 thanks for your advice, everyone. 20:54:23 well, you could do (list '(1 . ((2 . ((3 . ((nil . "old")))))))) 20:54:32 since it's a list of one element 20:54:39 stassats: oh really? let me try that one. 20:55:04 or use copy-tree 20:55:12 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:56:08 stassats: yes, this one works, thanks! http://paste.lisp.org/display/77427#2 20:56:22 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.73] has left #lisp 20:56:42 though (list '(1 (2 (3 (nil . "old"))))) is shorter 20:58:14 stassats: oh yes, you are right, thanks! :) 20:58:21 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 21:00:35 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:42 -!- kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:43 question to SBCL hackers: how hard would it be to port SBCL to a system without mmap()? :D 21:02:12 can you add mmap to the system? :) 21:02:22 Fade: not mmaping of a file 21:02:36 anonymous and physical memory maps, yes, but not the way mmap() does it 21:02:47 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:03:00 p_l: what is this system? 21:03:05 stassats: Plan 9 21:03:14 not particularly hard, it'd just suck 21:03:18 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:03:30 I'm doing research on possible porting of SBCL to some of the systems in GSoC 21:03:52 instead of mmaping the core file, you'd get some address space at a certain location, and just read the contents of the core into that location 21:04:09 plan9 deliberately doesn't do mmap() of files (it wouldn't work predictably, anyway) 21:04:39 I have a vague recollection that this is what we do for Windows, since the win32 mmap-equivalent (CreateViewOfFile, or something like that) has somehow bad semantics for this purpose 21:07:21 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:07:32 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:07:42 it seems that there is support for allocation of segments on arbitrary addresses at least 21:08:32 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 21:08:34 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:04 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:11 hmm, it looks like there would be no threading in a plan9 port 21:13:08 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:06 thom_logn [n=thom@96.229.99.100] has joined #lisp 21:16:28 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@213.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 21:16:34 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 21:17:49 I have created array list accessor for alist. What do you guys think about this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/77429 21:18:01 any comment or advice will be appreciated. 21:21:13 josemanuel [n=josemanu@189.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:21:19 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.243.206] has joined #lisp 21:21:50 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 21:21:55 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:25 aggieben_ [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:58 so (assoc* '(a b) ...) == (assoc 'a (assoc 'b ...)) ? 21:25:24 jrockway: yes 21:26:19 I wanted to something like $var[k1][k2][k3][k4] = "1234"; in other languages. 21:27:11 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:29 10 points to whomever can identify this quote (this is practically giving away free points): "Literature about Lisp rarely resists that narcissistic pleasure of describing Lisp in Lisp." 21:29:40 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:30:25 something familiar 21:30:54 *p_l* had only seen practical applications of that 21:31:22 tomoyuki28jp: have a look at http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/f5f814337fd44368 ; you could implement (setf ->). 21:31:36 yeah 21:31:43 for accessing, you don't need much code 21:31:54 (reduce (lambda (alist idx) (assoc idx alist)) '(foo 1 2)) 21:32:00 (where foo is the alist) 21:33:02 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-190-30-44.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 21:33:42 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-293.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:51 pjb`: thanks, I will take a look at it. 21:33:57 ITYM (lambda (alist idx) (cdr (assoc idx alist))) 21:34:50 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:00 Beket [n=stathis@adsl-244-137.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 21:36:27 wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 21:36:33 woo 21:37:04 jsnell: thanks for committing my patch 21:37:40 stassats: How can I use this one? (lambda (alist idx) (cdr (assoc idx alist))) 21:37:48 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 21:38:02 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:17 tomoyuki28jp: that's correction of jrockway's snippet 21:39:27 stassats: this works, thanks. (reduce (lambda (alist idx) (cdr (assoc idx alist))) '(((1 (2 (3 . nil)))) 1 2)) 21:39:42 -!- aggieben__ [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:05 I am writing an abstract implementation of p-lists (that is, they do not have to have classic p-list format). Is there any reason not to use an a-list instead? 21:41:57 or a hash-table. 21:43:00 Hashtables have considerable overhead if the typical number of properties is 0. 21:43:23 Why do you mind if you're writting an abstract implementation of dictionary? 21:44:48 What I mean is that the p-lists are only accessible via get, setf get, and remprop; there is nothing corresponding to symbol-plist. 21:45:26 perhaps I should say "an implementation of abstract plists" 21:45:44 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0E209.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:12 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:46:16 Is there any difference between apply and reduce? 21:46:30 yes, there is 21:46:37 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:53 tomoyuki28jp: Reduce applies a binary function across a list of elements; apply applies an n-ary function to a list of arguments. 21:47:12 In cases like +, there is not a huge difference, although you may bump up against a limit on the number of arguments that apply can process. 21:49:15 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["leaving"] 21:49:56 stassats: jcowan: thanks! 21:50:12 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-134-62.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 21:55:03 ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:08 clhs vector-push-extend 21:57:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vec_ps.htm 21:57:53 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@dhcp-18-190-26-53.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:57 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:58:42 -!- karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:54 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 22:00:38 -!- Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-98-142.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has left #lisp 22:01:09 wow, this "try compiling with other compilers" thing shows up all sorts of interesting bugs 22:01:12 who'd have thoughts? 22:01:48 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C98B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:49 _dulouz [n=ross@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:50 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-2-104.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:12:20 lukego [n=lukegorr@219-89-62-179.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:12:56 saikat [n=saikat@r253170217.resnet.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 22:12:58 -!- lep [n=lep@i5387A473.versanet.de] has left #lisp 22:14:01 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:14:45 -!- Beket [n=stathis@adsl-244-137.diodos.auth.gr] has quit ["laters"] 22:14:49 evening, lukego. I take it from your hostmask that you're not at ILC :) 22:15:36 alas not :) how is life? 22:15:40 it's lovely here in Dunedin anyway 22:16:19 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-33-76.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:19 with your Dunedain friends ? 22:16:46 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 22:17:08 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:17:31 haha 22:17:37 not bad, thanks 22:19:06 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-117-240.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:20 how can I check if symbol is a letter ? like (foo 'x) => T , (foo '+) => NIL ? 22:20:47 check its SYMBOL-NAME 22:20:51 (alpha-char-p (character (symbol-name symbol))) 22:21:11 ah, thx :] 22:21:59 rstandy`: If you're still having weblocks trouble, I may be able to help. 22:22:22 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has left #lisp 22:26:12 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:29:10 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:29:27 what do people use for snmp these days? has everyone just given up and staerted using net-snmp? 22:31:34 jao [i=jao@dhcp-18-190-55-103.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 22:38:21 joshe: thanks for making it in the first place, and sorry that we're a bit slow about merging patches these days 22:38:34 -!- andrewy [i=andrewy@209.126.180.153] has left #lisp 22:39:26 minion: tell Qsquare about cl-net-snmp 22:39:27 Qsquare: please look at cl-net-snmp: Project page on common-lisp.net, and SourceForge. http://www.cliki.net/cl-net-snmp 22:40:20 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:40:50 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:42:42 fe[nl]ix: cool 22:42:59 syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:24 jsnell: no problem, I understand that people may have more important things to do with their time than test patches for an OS that nobody uses ;) 22:44:57 *Qsquare* wonders why it's not in clbuild 22:45:26 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-66-212.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:49:55 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-133-68.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:52:19 jenkins [n=jenkins@ixa150.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:54:24 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:55:24 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 22:56:04 hey, it's not like I tested it :-P 22:56:17 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:59:32 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-116-220.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:01:59 *drewc* sighs. 23:02:04 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:02:05 wish i was at ILC :) 23:02:29 are there any lispy GSoC entries this year? 23:03:00 kpreid: no, LispNYC was turned down, and that's usually about it for lispyness 23:03:04 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:03:59 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:51 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-41-239.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:19 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:39 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:06 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0E209.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:10:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:15:35 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250014.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:23 there was the suggestion of submitting lispy entries to the other mentoring orgs 23:17:17 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:37 -!- emarsden [n=user@mir31-3-82-234-52-44.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:19:21 c|mell [n=cmell@x250009.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:19:49 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-182-59.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:16 -!- jao [i=jao@dhcp-18-190-55-103.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:22:17 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:23:00 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:25:12 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:26:00 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-226.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 23:26:34 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:26:55 like porting SBCL 23:27:57 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:19 jao [i=jao@dhcp-18-190-55-103.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 23:29:41 -!- karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:30:29 -!- cads [n=max@adsl-154-105-103.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:31:37 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:31 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:07 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:56 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D597.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:40:55 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:41:29 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:45:43 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.43.232] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:46:55 Does CLX handle `character-set-switch-keysym' properly? Mine seems to have no effect. 23:51:52 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:56 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:33 cyfex [n=cyfex@unaffiliated/cyfex] has joined #lisp 23:52:54 good morning to everyone.. 23:53:32 could someone point me to some document describing the use of the ~/ format directive please? 23:54:34 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:54:58 clhs ~/ 23:54:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm 23:55:06 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-13-156.twcny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 23:55:27 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:43 emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-13-156.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:55:57 thank you very much stassats! 23:57:11 in slime: C-c C-d ~ / 23:58:20 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit []