00:00:35 -!- dwave [n=ask@062016247112.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 00:02:04 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:49 -!- baffg [n=baffg@208-254-122-026.plateautel.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:05:59 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:10:29 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087FFD5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:13:20 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 00:20:18 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 00:23:41 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-20-9.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:49 |Akira| [n=|Akira|@adsl-ull-57-137.50-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 00:25:08 -!- |Akira| [n=|Akira|@adsl-ull-57-137.50-151.net24.it] has left #lisp 00:28:08 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:36 greetings lispers 00:31:45 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 00:32:33 a few days ago i was bitching and moaning about "business rules" and how they're just buzzword-clad inference engines, etc. and before then i was speculating whether to learn java's "enterprisesy" stuff, like J2EE, so they can help me with designing a fairly largish web app of mine. 00:32:54 here are my findings: 00:33:19 you've repented and decided to talk about lisp instead? 00:34:51 hefner: i swear to FSM this is all about lisp, i'm staring (at least my mental eyes are) at a blinking slime cursor elsewhere. remember, i'm trying to fit a life-time of class-based software engineering lore into generic functions, mixins and method combinations 00:35:15 lisp is more than just FFIs and compatibility layers ;-) 00:35:39 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:02 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [] 00:36:24 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 00:36:39 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:36:49 alright, never mind. i will just suffer this alone. 00:37:39 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:38:00 darn. 00:38:04 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:22 hefner, timing, it's all about timing ;) 00:38:40 huh? 00:39:05 fusss alright, never mind. i will just suffer this alone. 00:39:05 * fusss has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:39:05 hefner darn. 00:39:05 * fusss (n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net) has joined #lis 00:39:55 i'm tethered to fickle wireless router 00:40:35 fusss switching to j2ee after lisp would be madness 00:41:03 and large medical bills 00:41:06 i'm not "switching", just wanted to see what they're doing to manage/design/scale this large scale monstrocities 00:41:19 i havent seen anything more overspecified and monstrously designed as j2ee 00:41:26 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["Zzz..."] 00:41:26 ah, but mostly it's large b/c it's j2ee 00:41:32 -!- a-s` [n=user@92.80.66.203] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:41:52 but fear not, Martin Fowler's "patterns of enterprise software architectures" is GOOD. It's a hacker's book, despite the buzzwords stuffed to the name. 00:42:09 impossible, he's a worthless windbag 00:42:18 impossible double not! 00:42:27 THAT book is good 00:42:47 heh 00:42:48 anyone remember the pages about how most of the "Design Patterns" go away in lisp? 00:43:35 dcrawford: yes, cll is full of it. norvig did a mini essay. pitman has a good post on it and cliki discuses the "visitor" pattern. i did my homework :-) 00:46:02 a-s [n=user@92.80.66.203] has joined #lisp 00:46:18 Pseudonym of #haskell fame pointed out something else though. every language has patterns, including Lisp and Haskell. they all just use different sets of patterns depending on features and paradigms supported. 00:46:53 that's why I capitalized "Patterns" -- refering to the ones in TheBook 00:46:59 -!- hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has quit ["destroy the united states"] 00:47:02 Adamant: the gray-streams manual of sbcl has a little gem that made me smile today :-) 00:47:06 ah 00:47:32 fusss: what was the gem? 00:47:51 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:47:55 (defmethod stream-element-type ((stream wrapped-stream)) 00:47:58 (stream-element-type (stream-of stream))) 00:47:59 diamond dust between the pages? 00:48:06 -!- Fuzz [n=Fuh-zz@72.169.217.193] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:48:37 just don't cross the streams 00:48:38 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:48:40 lol 00:48:47 usually I see call-next-method in that spot 00:48:56 that would be... bad. 00:49:33 (the stream crossing, not the code) 00:49:43 AMOP something akin to list-all-classes in a few lines of code, portably :-) 00:49:51 ^does 00:50:00 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:51 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:50:57 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:50:57 -!- mogunus [n=marco@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:54:51 mogunus [n=marco@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:17 fusss: er, call-next-method doesn't solve that problem 00:58:07 kpreid: i was only more accustomed to it. the gf is dispatching on the class of a slot, not the class of the object (err, sounds vague) 00:58:27 you could write a macro or maybe use some moppery (constructing methods and adding them), though 00:58:38 fusss: er, I don't follow 00:59:01 as it happens I have a heap of that kind of forwarder in a couple places in my own app, so I'm interested in a better way if you know one 01:00:15 Adamant: some languages don't allow to formalize patterns, some do 01:00:16 the example i pasted wraps the class. the more frequent application is wrapping/shadowing methods. if call-next-method was invoked above the next most applicable method for stream-element-type would be called. in the example, the effective method of (stream-of stream) an slot, is being called. don't worry about it. 01:00:34 common lisp allows the patterns to be formalized, but... makes it hard to share the formalism with others :( 01:01:11 fusss: ah I see. that is a worthwhile thought 01:01:59 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E023.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:05:24 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 01:05:48 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:09:27 mogunus pasted "Utf-8 problems" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77310 01:10:29 Hello. I can't figure out how to get all my content to show up encoded properly. Specifically that definition and then slime not priniting it properly issue bothers me. 01:11:04 is there a straightforward way to emit messages into the REPL at compile-time? 01:12:04 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.66.203] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:23 Note that if I run sbcl from the command line, I don't have that problem... 01:13:11 Intertricity2_ [n=chatzill@131.91.107.220] has joined #lisp 01:13:34 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:13:35 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:37 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 01:15:25 antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:08 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-04e307b972518f62] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:20:57 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:23:11 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:23:16 this does not seem well written -- http://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started 01:23:29 Im new and would like to get started, the content on that page never goes anywhere at all. 01:23:39 emma: get PCL 01:23:45 minion: pcl-book? 01:23:46 pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 01:24:13 emma: where are you at, wheredyawannago? 01:24:25 absolute zero. 01:24:30 pcl is fantastic then 01:24:34 I want to learn to program in Lisp. 01:24:40 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250004.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:24:52 To make real programs, not just project-euler solutions. If you get me. 01:25:56 emma: OK. Why lisp? What kinds of programs? 01:27:42 -!- Intertricity2 [n=chatzill@131.91.107.220] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:27:45 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-119.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:09 Are you sure you want Common Lisp as opposed to say Scheme or Haskell? 01:31:06 minion: tell emma about the Gentle book 01:31:07 emma: you speak nonsense 01:31:36 emma: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/index.html 01:33:10 emma: LispIDE + clisp can get you up and running on Windows 01:33:55 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-68-173-124-55.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:33:59 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:34:08 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:23 mogunus pasted "every other slime start fails" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77312 01:34:35 Anybody know if there's any good lisp bindings to OpenCV? I know C but I've forgotten most of it, so I'm a bit hesitant to dig into the CFFI.. 01:35:02 Every other time I try to start slime I get that error. 01:36:11 Intertricity2_: google returns Lush as the only Lisp with opencv support. cffi can be made easier with 'groveling', never figured out how myslf. 01:37:07 Yeah all I see is Lush too :\ you'd think OpenCV would be high up on the lisp list given the AI background 01:40:46 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:49 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.244.122] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:43:06 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.122] has joined #lisp 01:44:35 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["Balooga has no reason"] 01:45:43 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:02 joha1 [n=johan@fw1.ngigroup.com] has joined #lisp 01:49:05 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:50:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:08 Fare I did some project-euler-type (although at the time I did not yet know about project euler) programs in Scheme already. 01:50:27 I would like to make programs that are more interactive. 01:50:40 fusss: I use Ubuntu. 01:51:48 emma: why do you want to do that academic shite on your own volition? 01:52:03 get slime and two other lisps (clis + sbcl sound good) and start hacking 01:52:15 fusss: Because I was trying to learn Scheme and all I could figure out how to do with it was that kind of problem. 01:52:26 I learned on CMUCL and used its buitin editor (Hemlock) and wrote Motif GUIs for "fun" 01:52:27 I made a program to factor integers and another to do a square root. 01:53:10 Are you looking to do something with a GUI? 01:53:14 if you want a GUI you can use lambda-gtk with sbcl and convert every gnome app to Lisp if you so wish 01:53:20 yeah eventually that would be cool 01:53:24 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-68-173-124-55.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:53:44 fusss: sbcl is different from common lisp? 01:53:59 the "cl" in "sbcl" stands for Common Lisp 01:54:07 ohok 01:54:13 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-68-173-124-55.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:54:51 emma: what other programs have you been writing until now in other languages? 01:55:03 None. 01:55:27 Well I did make some programs on my TI 86. So TI BASIC 01:55:30 so we see it's not exactly a Lisp issue. no problem. What programs do you wish to write now? 01:55:40 Besides that Scheme was my first 'language' 01:56:28 but i still don't understand scheme that's for sure, I just began to feel that Scheme was confusing for how I would do anything more than project euler type questions. 01:56:28 you wanna start with the applications you use most often and try to "clone" them; or at least get a basic functionality. 01:56:41 that sounds like a good diea. 01:56:46 -!- Intertricity2_ [n=chatzill@131.91.107.220] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009021910]"] 01:57:20 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:57:53 download sbcl and emacs (slime can wait a few more days) http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html 01:58:33 bunzip the tar ball, copy it to /usr/local as root and then extract it (tar -xvf sbcl-linux-x86.tar or whatever) 01:59:30 make a link for it named "lisp" in /usr/local/bin (i.e. ln -s /usr/local/bin/sbcl /usr/local/bin/lisp) so emacs can find it. then fire up emacs and M-x run-lisp 02:00:50 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:58 you will probably need to put lisp on hold for a day until you get the hang on emacs. after that you will need to start downloading small libraries and testing them out. 02:01:16 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A0F69.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:01:51 -!- _death [n=death@bzq-84-110-247-19.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:03:10 _death [n=death@bzq-84-110-247-19.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:45 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B6E7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:09:22 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:13:31 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:14:16 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:32 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:17:28 -!- antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:17:34 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-218-255-225.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:42 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:18:13 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-68-173-124-55.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:21:50 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:23:34 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B625.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:23:36 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-68-173-124-55.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:24:14 disismt [n=user@124.124.233.5] has joined #lisp 02:24:33 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:35 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:35:17 saikat [n=saikat@r253170217.resnet.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 02:36:09 -!- joha1 [n=johan@fw1.ngigroup.com] has left #lisp 02:38:25 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCE399.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 02:38:33 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:17 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-20-9.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:45:38 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:19 -!- Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.214.215.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:50:57 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:01:15 -!- younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 03:01:29 Dumb question time: turning a string into a :foo type thing? (symbol?) 03:01:46 Is there a web interface to search the SBCL code? I'm looking for an internal function SPECIFIER-TYPE. I suppose I could checkout the source code, but it would be nice not to. 03:02:56 Not that I'm aware of. I already have it checked out, though, I think. What do you need? 03:03:42 What file contains the definition of SPECIFIER-TYPE? 03:04:05 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:04:32 Sec. 03:05:25 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:39 <_death> src/code/early-type.lisp 03:06:22 rlpowell: Thanks, you can (intern "foo" :keyword) 03:06:27 Ah, *there* it is: src/code/early-type.lisp 03:06:30 Crap. I lose. 03:06:33 There might be better ways 03:06:35 :'( 03:06:37 Thanks. 03:06:52 I have no idea why I can't remember the intern function. 03:07:15 I mean, it's about as mnemonic as lambda :P, but other than that. :D 03:08:00 <_death> tmh: if you compiled sbcl (or it knows where its source is and the source is accessible) and you use slime, you can use `slime-edit-definition' (`M-.') to go to the definition 03:09:01 _death: I didn't. I usually used DESCRIBE, but in this case, I didn't know the correct package for SPECIFIER-TYPE and it is not an external symbol. 03:09:16 <_death> clhs apropos 03:09:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apropo.htm 03:09:38 Thanks 03:09:46 <_death> and it is an external symbol 03:09:54 I see that now. 03:12:15 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Dead socket] 03:12:35 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:50 The name "SB-INTROSPECT" does not designate any package. -- *blink* It worked yesterday? 03:15:38 There it goes. That was odd. 03:16:00 <_death> you can (require :sb-introspect) 03:16:31 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@99.136.101.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:18:33 anyone knows why i can't use *standard-input* with sb-ext:run-program ? 03:19:41 Can you point me to the docs for it? 03:19:53 I know there was a thread about similar issues on the help list recently, but it wasn't that simple. 03:20:42 <_death> xristos: "can't use"? maybe it's a slime-thing? 03:20:54 _death: plain sbcl on command line 03:21:17 try: (sb-ext:run-program "cat" nil :input t :output t :search t) 03:21:50 Other than never stopping (as expected) it seems happy. 03:22:04 Ah, not so much with the actual output, though. 03:22:11 rlpowell: "a :foo type thing" is a symbol whose package is the one named "KEYWORD" 03:22:24 there is also a type cl:keyword which consists of such symbols 03:23:25 kpreid: Thanks. I make no promises of my ability to keep that straight. :| 03:23:58 some CL implementations have the keyword package as a package with a name "" 03:24:26 so :foo is just bar:foo with the empty string leading. this is actually nonconformant, but cute 03:24:50 Oh. that is cute. 03:24:58 Where "cute" ?= "smart". :) 03:25:13 "smartass"? 03:26:17 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-34-198.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:51 Yeah. 03:27:19 JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:37 does this work for anyone ? (sb-ext:run-program "cat" nil :input t :output t :search t) 03:30:45 you type something it should echo 03:32:41 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:48 hello all 03:33:24 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:12 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:35:03 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:39:26 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:39:59 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-68-173-124-55.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:40:22 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-68-173-124-55.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:44:08 i have a clos newbie question 03:44:12 in my reader i do 03:44:38 (defclass foo () ((first-name))) 03:45:03 ah i see i did it wrong, never mind 03:45:59 ... 03:46:00 WTF?? 03:46:01 ; READ failure in COMPILE-FILE: ; SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-PACKAGE-ERROR at 12505 (line 328, column 33) on #: ; package "SB-INTROSPECT" not found 03:46:23 Line 328 is: (progn (require 'sb-introspect) (sb-introspect:function-arglist function)) 03:46:27 ozy| [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:30 WHich works fine on the command line... :( 03:46:43 Modifying other people's code is always so weird. 03:47:25 rlpowell - i might be stupid but shuldn't sb-introspect be in quotes not backquoted? 03:47:55 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:47:57 OK, I was wrong; the progn doesn't work at the REPL. I have to do (require 'sb-introspect) by itself, then it works. 03:48:18 isismelting: Doesn't help, I'm afraid. 03:49:31 progn doesn't work at the REPL? you just answered a bunch of questions of mine from yesterday 03:50:28 crink [n=crink@210.110.159.199] has joined #lisp 03:50:37 I wha? 03:51:03 That *particular* progn doesn't work. If I do (require 'sb-introspect) , hit return, and then do (sb-introspect:function-arglist function) in works, but if I put both in a progn, it fails. 03:51:08 Which makes me think it's time for eval-when. 03:52:19 I think it's because progn is read as one form, and the package doesn't exist yet because the form is fully read before require has done its thing. 03:52:52 eval-when doesn't seem to help, and sticking the require at the top of the file doesn't seem to help. Grrr. 03:52:56 Er, hasn't. 03:53:24 *nod* 03:53:43 Sticking it in the file that defines the package works. Yay. 03:54:16 I would have thought (require 'sb-introspect) (sb-introspect:foo bar) would work. 03:54:50 <_death> xristos: that behavior has nothing to do with sbcl 03:57:03 anyone know of a CL disassembly library for x86 03:58:49 _death what is the problem then ? 03:59:16 <_death> actually, gimme a sec 03:59:22 cipher: What does CL disassembly library mean? 04:00:32 just something that'll take the op codes and figure out what it looks like in assembler 04:01:11 there is disassemble 04:02:36 Well, first of all, it depends a lot on whether the system you're using ever produces a compiled anything to be disassembled. 04:02:47 If it does, presumably you can just use a regular disassembler? 04:03:18 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:04:15 cipher: Well, cmucl and sbcl (and perhaps others) have disassemblers that can disassemble x86. 04:04:23 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:05:40 Really? Huh. 04:05:44 <_death> xristos: sbcl's spawn calls `setpgrp' in the child process 04:06:05 *rlpowell* imagines self-rewriting code that uses dissassembly inside CL, with macros on top, and tries to not scream. 04:08:26 cipher: In cmucl, you can use disassem:disassemble-memory to disassemble bits of memory. You could probably play games with sys:vector-sap to dissassemble an array of bytes. 04:08:52 rtoym: thank you, that's definitely a start. 04:08:56 *rtoym* tries that out. 04:10:25 Hey, that actually works. 04:10:50 hehe my first instinct was (disassemble 'disassemble) 04:11:16 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151257.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:11:46 *Crap*. I think I may have hit an SBCL bug. 04:12:04 Can other people with it please try: (sb-kernel:type-expand 'eq) vs. (sb-kernel:type-expand 'eql) ? 04:12:25 Pretty much anything other than 'eql seems to work, in fact. 04:13:16 yep, 'eql causes badness 04:13:38 Crapmonkeys. 04:13:40 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@219-89-62-179.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 04:13:49 error while parsing arguments to DEFTYPE EQL: 04:13:55 rlpowell: "The symbol eql is not valid as an atomic type specifier." 04:14:16 Every time I set out to write my own code, I end up fixing someone else's. When I actually set out to fix someone else's code, this happens? 04:14:30 kpreid: I have no idea what sb-kernel:type-expand is supposed to be doing; can you expand? 04:14:37 I am, as I say, fixing someone else's code. 04:14:44 rlpowell: I assume it accepts a type specifier. EQL is not a type specifier. 04:14:57 (EQL ...) *is* a type specifier 04:15:13 But "format" *is*? 04:15:16 EQ is also not a type specifier, but it is not *explicitly* not a type specifier, merely undefined 04:15:27 much like any symbol not a macro is assumed to be a function, 04:15:29 * (sb-kernel:type-expand 'format) 04:15:29 FORMAT 04:15:35 minion: memo for tritchey: should be fixed now 04:15:36 Remembered. I'll tell tritchey when he/she/it next speaks. 04:15:37 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151257.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:15:52 any type specifier is just left alone, sort of 04:16:19 the reason it fails on EQL is that that case is *defined to be invalid* 04:16:24 Neat. 04:16:35 Don't suppose there's a list of those somewhere? 04:16:38 Whereas you give it some other random symbol it doesn't know that it's invalid. 04:16:40 Umm. 04:16:46 Why would you want that? 04:16:51 -!- tetha [n=hk@pD9EE4BFB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:17:00 tetha [n=hk@pD9EE45E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:11 Because I want this code to stop breaking, without actually understanding it. :) 04:17:24 spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.13.213] has joined #lisp 04:17:31 Figure out why it thinks EQL is something to treat as a type specifier, and make it stop doing that. 04:17:55 If you want a list of standardized type specifiers, see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/04_bc.htm 04:18:06 (note that EQL is in the "Compound-Only" list) 04:18:59 sebell [n=sctb@adsl-71-135-109-227.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:50 *rlpowell* notices that the lispworks version of the same code is wrapped in (ignore-errors ...). :) 04:19:51 rlpowell: fyi, from experiment (not documentation), sb-kernel:type-expand is basically macroexpand for type specifiers. 04:20:24 to reiterate, what you need to do is figure out where EQL (as opposed to (EQL foo)) is getting into the system, and stop that happening 04:20:33 cads_ [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:28 mogunus pasted "can't launch slime" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77319 04:21:36 It's pulling all the symbols out of a package and running code on all of them. 04:21:50 I can't get into slime, I keep getting that error. Latest emacs, SBCL 1.0.23, latest slime 04:22:25 diracdelta [n=diracdel@c-67-180-160-69.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:36 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009021906]"] 04:22:48 rlpowell: oh. then deal with the errors :) 04:23:02 :) 04:23:44 Sorry, took me a while to figure that out. 04:23:53 (ignore-errors is a blunt instrument; if returning NIL is not the right thing, use handler-case) 04:24:07 *kpreid* Z 04:25:06 well, actually, you can (ignore-errors (values ...)) if you only care about the primary value. 04:32:07 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 04:47:28 -!- cads_ [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 04:48:07 -!- disismt [n=user@124.124.233.5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:56:04 cads_ [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:45 mogunus pasted "CSS and hunchentoot" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77322 04:58:01 Having a weird problem with hunchentoot. One of my pages isn't displaying any CSS formatting 04:58:55 The other pages use the exact same standard-page macro 04:59:34 -!- cads_ [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:00:56 -!- sebell [n=sctb@adsl-71-135-109-227.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.1.1"] 05:01:25 And their css works fine 05:06:02 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-192.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 05:06:38 which parts are working and which are not? 05:07:01 The yahoo css reset may be working. None of my own css (in class.css) is working. 05:07:40 On all my other pages (all of which use standard-page) all the CSS styling is rendered. 05:08:08 The only difference that I can see is that this page uses a (let) before calling (standard-page) 05:08:49 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:08:53 but since the links to the appropriate CSS files are still present in the generated HTML (at the bottom of my paste it is shown) 05:09:00 I don't understand why that would be a problem 05:10:06 rullie_ [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151257.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:12:47 css has really tricky rules sometimes 05:12:49 i mean 05:13:02 it looks like the lisp is doing what you want it to generally 05:13:56 -!- crink [n=crink@210.110.159.199] has left #lisp 05:15:32 yeah, which is why it is so confusing :-( 05:15:48 even my little navbar thing isn't getting styles 05:15:54 (the id="nav" bit) 05:16:50 one thing to do is to inline a couple of the css definitions to test 05:17:18 c|mell [n=cmell@x250041.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 05:18:24 slime certainly seems alot more solid than limp 05:19:32 hmm. firebug tells me that the yahoo grid reset is working 05:19:43 but I'm getting none of my class.css 05:20:25 mogunus: is the relative link correct (same directory as your other pages)? 05:22:07 *blink* How did /usr/lib/sbcl/sb-bsd-sockets/constants.lisp become error-full? 05:22:13 That's... more than a little odd. 05:22:30 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-201-67-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 05:23:00 It's broken in the 1.0.23 source. 0.o 05:23:11 pkhuong: *nods*, it works for everything else that I use (standard-page_ with 05:24:12 so that page is getting written to the same subdirectory? 05:24:54 like if you put http://absolute/refrence/to/my/css/class.css it still wont work? 05:26:06 in the web browser? http://localhost:8081/class.css gives me the .css file itself 05:26:07 It's still broken in 1.0.25! The mind, it boggles. 05:26:26 (push (create-static-file-dispatcher-and-handler "/class.css" "/home/marco/inti-site/class.css") hunchentoot:*dispatch-table*) 05:26:32 is what gets it into hunchentoot 05:26:57 rlpowell: warnings are expected for bsd-socket constants. Not all constants exist everywhere. 05:27:37 mogunus: i mean in the generated html 05:27:54 yep. putting an absolute link in the generated html makes it all work 05:28:01 can't thank you enough 05:28:18 that doesn't make any *sense* though! all the other pages work with a relative link to class.css 05:28:24 mogunus: and is the not-working page located in the same directory (per the browser's POV) as the other pages that do work? 05:28:35 ...no, it totally isn't 05:28:47 now my website works, *and* everything makes sense. thanks all :-) 05:28:48 pkhuong: It's got an extra ) 05:28:49 :) 05:28:58 Bit more than a missing constant. 05:29:02 So the relative link was *not* correct. 05:29:04 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-157-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:32 i *believe* relatives just go up one level, look around, and if they don't find anything, give up 05:29:56 yeah, it would have to go up two levels 05:30:11 because it's of the form http://host/numeros/number 05:30:25 relative links start from the same directory as the linking document. So 'style.css' from foo/bar/baz resolves to foo/bar/style.css. 05:30:44 got it. I'll just use the absolute from now on. 05:32:13 You probably want '/style.css'. 05:32:48 ahh, that makes the most sense. host independant, tells it to start from the root directory? 05:33:16 ...while #lisp is being really nice to me, can you take a look at my startup error in slime? http://paste.lisp.org/display/77319 05:33:36 pkhuong is a very helpful person, I've noticed. :) 05:33:36 -!- spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.13.213] has left #lisp 05:33:54 It takes me multiple tries to start slime, most of the time it gives that error, sometimes it'll work 05:34:13 what are you running under? 05:34:38 linux, SBCL 1.0.23, latest emacs from cvs, latest slime. 05:37:00 i hate bugs that are only sometimes 05:37:36 There's been a lot of activity in SLIME lately; might be a good idea to try a fresher SBCL. 05:37:54 Good morning. 05:38:04 anyway 05:38:15 good night 05:38:37 -!- JAS415 [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 05:39:22 Hmm, okay. 05:43:52 -!- saikat [n=saikat@r253170217.resnet.cornell.edu] has quit [] 05:55:47 -!- ozy| [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 06:00:40 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp52-43.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:02:30 rlpowell: that extra closing parenthesis has always been around, it seems. 06:03:12 Neat. 06:03:20 Is there some magic way that that doesn't break shit? 06:04:59 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:07:46 rlpowell: it's not actually a lisp file. SB-GROVEL specifically only looks at the first two forms. The extra parenthesis might be intentional. 06:08:41 spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9de867e461f52972] has joined #lisp 06:09:12 ejs [n=eugen@76-107-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:28 -!- spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-9de867e461f52972] has left #lisp 06:12:58 -!- r0bby_ is now known as r0bby 06:17:12 Neat. 06:17:18 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-7473.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 06:17:41 I don't know why it makes mb:document barf, but it does seem to. I'd hate to have to fix that. -_- 06:21:24 if mb:document expects a lisp file, that would be bad. 06:24:35 It seems to eval files on occasion, yes. 06:24:56 I haven't bothered to understand the internals yet; I'm just playing around with it. 06:28:21 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B65B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:38 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 06:34:19 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-68-173-124-55.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 06:37:15 -!- ejs [n=eugen@76-107-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:47:30 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:50:30 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:53:36 ejs [n=eugen@76-107-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:08 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B65B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:08 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:09:50 Is there a good CL full-text search engine? 07:11:37 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:11:47 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:06 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:12:17 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@c-71-232-102-206.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:40 good morning 07:20:49 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-54-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:22:45 mogunus: there is montezuma, http://code.google.com/p/montezuma/. 07:23:03 kami-: actually just found that. 07:23:14 is the google code page up to date? I need utf-8 support 07:23:18 I only bookmarked it some time ago and have no experience with it. 07:24:36 mogunus: I'd say the page is pretty up to date, if it says "A new version supporting UTF8 is being worked on as of February 2009." 07:26:01 Wow, I can read. 07:26:09 Heh, I guess I know what I'll be doing tomorrow :-) 07:28:44 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:29:21 mogunus: my use case would be to use it to index certain columns in a database. If you find out that that might be possible without much effort (1 or 2 days), I'd also use it. 07:29:53 mogunus: and I would need utf-8, too. 07:30:07 *mogunus* nods 07:30:34 If I manage to get utf-8 into it, I'll certainly be talking about it here. 07:30:44 (most likely to ask for help) 07:30:55 but now, sleep calls. 07:31:03 gn mogunus 07:31:09 gn 07:31:13 thanks for the tip 07:31:17 -!- mogunus [n=marco@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:32:57 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 07:36:01 is there a format directive for printing all key and vals in a hashtable? 07:36:03 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 07:36:09 kami-: no 07:36:21 H4ns: thanks 07:39:31 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:45:43 mega1 [n=mega@pool-02ed6.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:46:42 hello 07:46:46 kami: Perhaps see maphash. 07:46:58 hello MrSpec 07:46:58 kami: Also, see ~V 07:47:06 Zhivago: will do. thank you. 07:47:39 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has joined #lisp 07:49:04 (format t "~A~%" alexandria:hash-table-alist some-hash-table)) 07:49:11 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:50:49 lnostdal: thank you. 07:57:22 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:00 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-23-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 08:03:30 disismt [n=user@124.124.233.5] has joined #lisp 08:06:19 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:08:06 -!- tetha [n=hk@pD9EE45E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:08:08 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 08:08:47 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:10:07 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:29 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dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-34-198.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:59 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.225.218] has quit [Client Quit] 08:36:08 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 08:37:18 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:41:39 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has quit [] 08:44:04 baal [n=baal@h49n2fls303o885.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:44:06 -!- baal is now known as Malbolgne 08:45:57 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:46:44 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:47:48 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:53 good morning 08:58:41 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:00:43 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:03:54 hello mvilleneuve 09:04:18 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 09:04:20 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:04:29 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:07:40 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:07:51 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 09:08:01 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 09:12:40 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-7473.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:14:07 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:45 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has joined #lisp 09:16:00 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:17:36 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:18:30 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:23:45 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@34.80-203-160.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:24:55 Beket 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(Operation timed out)] 10:44:18 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:53:40 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-54.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:58:24 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-54.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 10:59:08 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:55 -!- Martinp23 [i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:11:41 it's new! 11:14:00 it's not! 11:16:46 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 11:19:46 -!- H4ns [n=hans@70.91.193.41] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:19:56 it's not the new old! 11:20:41 -!- disappearedng [n=disappea@th236042.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:21:33 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:21:48 -!- MrSpec is now known as mrSpec[afk] 11:21:58 elias` [n=me@resnet-nat-049.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:25:16 agnel [n=joel@122.166.120.150] has joined #lisp 11:25:20 -!- agnel [n=joel@122.166.120.150] has quit [K-lined] 11:28:58 benny [n=benny@i577A0C46.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:29:21 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250041.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:29:29 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A693.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:30:36 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C46.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:33:58 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:37:00 c|mell [n=cmell@x250031.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:39:11 forest [n=forest@195.222.75.177] has joined #lisp 11:40:53 hmmm, it seems that sbcl gets confused when i reload a function with clsql syntax, even if i've syntax enabled... 11:41:24 -!- forest [n=forest@195.222.75.177] has left #lisp 11:42:24 i'm working with slime, load my file ok, when when i reload a function it gets lots of undefined vars... anybody has had the same prob? 11:43:36 problems with packages? 11:45:19 H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 11:45:52 syntax enabled meaning having the enable-syntax somewhere in the file? that's not good enough, because slime doesn't see it. 11:46:13 you could hack clsql to use tcr's named readtables from darcs, which have some slime integrations. works great for me. 11:46:34 s/integrations/integration/ 11:47:24 -!- klausi [n=klausi@port-92-193-54-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 11:47:56 hmmm, no, my workflow is as follows: start slime, load needed packages, compile my source file (with clsql), in-package to my package, enable syntax in inferior-lisp, call my sql function, works fine 11:48:29 now, change my function, C-x C-e to rebuild my function, call my function again -> breaks 11:49:47 i enable syntax reader at inferior lisp buffer, so i guess slime doesn't need to do any special handling... 11:50:14 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:51:01 presumably c-c c-e doesn't run the same thread as the inferior repl and has a different *readtable* binding? 11:51:58 lichtblau: oh, got commonqt going on macos in the end 11:52:03 seems very nice so far 11:52:21 rsynnott: shiny! is the installation procedure worth documenting? 11:52:49 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:52 yep; I'll write something up today/tomorrow 11:53:05 cool. don't forget the t14.lisp screenshot! :-) 11:53:27 it's a bit of a pain; smoke's autoconfig stuff gets confused by macos's (admittedly weird) library setup 11:53:44 lichtblau: hmmm, indeed, seems that C-x C-e to enable syntax function makes it work 11:53:46 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:14 (so does cmake. So does everything, in fact; macos is obviously a distant third on the Qt/KDE priority list) 11:54:32 hmmm, no, it doesn't 11:54:42 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F4C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:54 oh, I'll do one better than that; I have a screenshot of Apple's mandatory currency conversion tutorial app, in commonqt :) 11:55:06 I think they actually switched to cmake in kdebindings for MORE PORTABILITY 11:55:33 (all Apple tutorials involve the same app; it's their equivalent of the mandatory web framework blog example) 11:56:28 rsynnott: hmmm, qt works fine on osx, but doesn't use cmake, kde OTOH has quite a decent osx support now, as good as windows i'd say 11:58:07 -!- disismt [n=user@124.124.233.5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:58:49 disismt [n=user@124.124.233.5] has joined #lisp 11:59:33 benny [n=benny@i577A0C46.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:01:10 josemanuel [n=josemanu@78.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:02:10 maybe it's just the kdebindings thingy 12:02:20 (I used the QT binary dist) 12:02:49 lichtblau: where might i get named-readtables? 12:04:32 guaqua: from editor-hints. darcs get http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/editor-hints 12:05:02 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 12:05:15 lichtblau: sorry. thought i had that. doesn't seem to be fetchable with clbuild, but i must've missed that. :) 12:05:54 editor-hints should be in current clbuild. I added it together with commonqt a few days ago. 12:06:15 oh, i better update it then 12:07:45 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:08:03 -!- hankhero [n=henrik@c213-89-202-192.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:09:02 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:53 hankhero [n=henrik@c213-89-194-181.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:13:18 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-38-156.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:13:30 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:32 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-38-156.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:16 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:14:40 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:18:51 bbe [n=bbe@121.229.26.190] has joined #lisp 12:19:31 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:54 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 12:22:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:38 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:31:50 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:55 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 12:34:58 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-132-128.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:35:53 _death: around? 12:36:28 *mega1* missed the opportunity for "is _death near?" 12:37:57 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 12:38:56 whoa, hunchentoot has had some changes. thought i'd do a drop-in replacement for 0.15.7 12:39:16 *_death* is here, but not for long 12:40:04 aerique: the major version number change was meant to reflect that. 12:40:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:40:40 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:19 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:20 H4ns: haha, true :) 12:44:53 mega1 pasted "for _death to try" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77338 12:45:44 _death: I could not reproduce the tls index bug even when checking all symbol for index clashes. 12:46:07 but there is a very slight chance that the above will fix it for you 12:47:34 <_death> mega1: I'll try it, but unfortunately not now - on Sunday 12:47:42 fine 12:47:53 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:48:47 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:49:43 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 12:55:55 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:01:54 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp52-43.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:02:16 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:02:50 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:03:15 -!- rullie_ [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151257.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:04:06 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:05:47 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:10:27 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 13:11:46 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:11:49 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:25 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B65B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:21 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 13:23:12 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:42 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17ED50.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:51 LostMonarch [n=roby@host66-178-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:34:23 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:38:53 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@78.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 13:39:01 mega1: (just curious) the (all_threads==0) test basically means "is this the initial thread?", right? 13:39:15 yes 13:39:28 (if so, can't see how locking access to it can help in any way) 13:39:57 cmm: it's not locking per se, it's visibility. 13:40:54 but I looked at this code before and thought that a non-zero value is going to be visible to the other threads too 13:41:05 ok; I suppose I just don't understand how you might end up initializing two threads at once when the initial thread does not even run yet 13:41:26 cmm: nothing like that. 13:41:35 ah, you mean visibility in the hardware sense 13:41:39 ouch 13:41:40 yes 13:42:02 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit ["leaving"] 13:42:53 what about just qualifying all_threads as volatile? 13:43:01 there is very little code that touches tls indexes, this is the only chance that I could see 13:43:10 cmm: hah, beginner trap :-) 13:43:37 volatile does absolutely nothing for inter-{cpu,thread} visibility 13:43:49 dwave_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 13:43:51 *cmm* is not quite a beginner, but haven't ever been bitten by stuff like that in the windows-land 13:44:27 sorry for that. It's only good for signal handlers and memory mapped i/o to hardware, I guess. 13:44:40 come to think about it, at work we just lock everything religiously, maybe that's why 13:45:10 no-no, education is always most welcome 13:45:18 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 13:45:31 cmm: see commit message of 1.0.25.29 13:47:37 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:09 mega1: thanks a lot 13:48:15 you're welcome 13:48:20 -!- _death [n=death@bzq-84-110-247-19.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:32 Lispster [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:10 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:49 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-211.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:54:51 mega1 annotated #77338 "test code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77338#1 13:56:43 schme [n=schme@c83-249-80-103.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:56:46 -!- segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1C91B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:58 segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1F060.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:33 presumably you need a seriously memory-bandwith-starved box to see this effect reliably 13:58:07 ah, no, just a relatively big cache 13:58:22 and 32-bit mode, to be sure 13:59:46 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:06:22 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:06:27 -!- Poundily [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:42 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:10:46 qeek [n=jez@77-103-66-203.cable.ubr20.newt.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:10:54 -!- qeek is now known as jez 14:11:08 -!- jez [n=jez@77-103-66-203.cable.ubr20.newt.blueyonder.co.uk] has left #lisp 14:12:25 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:08 anyone know if sohum ever figured out why cl-irc wasn't compiling for him? 14:13:24 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:13:45 do you have the same problem? 14:13:51 yep 14:14:07 did you get cl-irc from svn? 14:14:10 using asdf for installing, aggieben? 14:14:17 is anything further along than cl-gsl for the GNU scientific library bindings 14:14:27 from the bottom of my heart i recommend clbuild 14:14:34 minion: gsll? 14:14:35 gsll: The GNU Scientific Library for Lisp (GSLL) allows you to use the GNU Scientific Library (GSL) from Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/gsll 14:14:38 guaqua: no, I'm not using asdf-install 14:15:04 aggieben: you need the svn, or just patch one line of the last release 14:15:13 guaqua: ok 14:15:20 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:21 of cl-irc, or flexi-streams? 14:15:25 cl-irc 14:15:36 i'd recommend getting the svn 14:15:44 or that's what i'm using 14:17:06 aggieben: around line 220 in protocol.lisp 14:17:30 just change the function name to match the new flexi-stream api 14:17:39 -!- moocow is now known as holycow 14:17:48 i looked this up from the svn version so it might not be very accurate 14:18:12 guaqua: thanks 14:21:34 deat_ [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:35 -!- deat_ [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:58 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:16 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:26:33 Greetings! 14:26:47 joschan [n=ad@xdsl-78-34-41-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:30:35 sweemeng [n=sweemeng@118.101.45.49] has joined #lisp 14:30:35 Hi, i was wondering to develop from scratch an artificial intelligence system, what could be the best language? I thought it must be able to write itself (to alter the code of the system itself seamlessly). I am new to lisp, I did some smalltalk and ruby, I have heard of haskell. Can you vote some of these up or down? Other languages? 14:31:07 the one you know better 14:32:00 i know python quite well but i think lisp or smalltalk is superior for the task 14:32:45 "I have heard 14:32:59 of haskell" - best amount of haskell knowledge to have :) 14:33:42 mega1: are you sorted for darwin sbcl builds? 14:33:53 Xof: yes, thanks. 14:34:16 joschan: assembly can alter itself quite easily 14:34:17 the x86 seems ok by now, even if I don't trust the workaround 14:34:25 what version of GCC(?) are we targetting? 14:34:40 the ppc is doing something very strange 14:35:06 i forgot scheme - no assembnly is not an option for me 14:35:23 Who updates the SBCL Internals Cliki? 14:35:26 pkhuong: are you referring to sbcl? 14:35:36 tmh: you! 14:35:45 mega1: yes. 14:36:01 stassats`: Hmm, that's not good. 14:36:26 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-207-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:36:37 joschan: artificial intelligence system is kind of a vague specification 14:36:42 pkhuong: there is nothing official. It compiles with 3.4 and up, I think. 14:36:50 look for libraries 14:37:03 and a language you feel comfortable with 14:37:03 aggieben: i never considered assembly, but why not 14:37:43 back to the fifties? 14:37:43 (at least, there was a report from *bsd with gcc 3.4 when I relied on gcc 4 behaviour) 14:37:52 joschan: I was just having a small laugh to myself at your expense. It's unlikely that you'd want to use assembly 14:38:08 mega1: so the new itanium-inspired barriers (etc) are a bad idea. 14:38:29 pkhuong: what are those? 14:38:34 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:08 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 14:40:28 aggieben: maybe we have even to go below machine language! 14:40:36 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 14:40:54 joschan: you better stop while you're ahead 14:40:56 AI on transistors? 14:41:11 with robot arms to rearrange them as needed? 14:41:15 mega1: I thought there were finer grained barriers too, but I can't find them anymore. 14:41:32 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.162.151] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:41:42 KalifG [n=user@166.128.162.151] has joined #lisp 14:42:20 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-201-67-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:42:23 better yet, instead of building our own AI, we should direct all earth's resources toward finding the magic machine-life-giving cube from transformers 14:42:59 then we can just walk by it with metal items that become sentient shape-shifting AI 14:43:22 guaqua: the specification is vague, yes. the system should have an idea of the objects it deals with (it deals with operating systems, and users) and be able to learn from the input of the users and rewrite itself accordingly 14:44:16 eventually it will have only one button "Do everything" 14:44:40 Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 14:44:54 i thought i start with very simple actions - learn how to shut down or restart a machine 14:45:02 format c ;-) 14:45:03 joschan: there are any number of ways to do such a thing, and the mechanics of the programming language you use will probably be the least of your worries. Lisp would be dandy, but you could do it with Prolog, Python, Haskell, C#, or even C if you wanted to 14:45:40 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:45:54 aggieben: i'd prefer an interpreted language, a compiler would stand between changing the code seamlessly 14:46:10 oh, dear 14:46:13 *Xof* raises an eyebrow 14:46:22 (actually, I can't do that IRL. Thank goodness for IRC!) 14:46:30 this room really needa a large red warning label 14:46:46 or possibly the bot should just PM new people with the relevant stuff 14:46:47 "It's 200x now"? 14:46:50 joschan: like I said...you better stop while you're ahead. You need to plan out your system before worrying about exactly how to "change the code seamlessly" 14:46:51 jlf` [n=user@nmd.sbx05975.petalca.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:52 pkhuong: what do you have in mind for them? 14:47:11 aggieben: i am planning this for years 14:47:21 joschan: I don't believe you. 14:47:58 having something in your head for years is not the same thing as planning it. 14:48:49 for example i made some experiments in smalltalk. with a squeak image. it was quite easy to alter code, and it even compiles on the fly. what i did not like was that it does not have text files. there is only gnu smalltalk wiht text files. but i somehow left smalltalk 14:49:05 mega1: e.g. instead of acquiring the all threads lock, wouldn't a barrier (or, worst case, a lock CAS) be enough? (not that it really matters there, but maybe in some other places) 14:49:31 that was re your patch for clobbered specials. 14:50:26 pkhuong: sure, it would be expressed more clearly. But I don't know any performance critical part in the runtime whose bottleneck is in locking. 14:50:46 I mean in using locking instead of barriers. 14:50:52 pkhuong: jumping back to the e-mail discussion about random-state: do you think it would be interesting to investigate a random-state protocol, so that users can bind *random-state* to a user-provided object which satisfies their own requirements? 14:50:54 i was watching my son for years how he was learning language, how he structured his brain, aquiring intelligence and i learned from this 14:51:26 So, I'm defining a MAP-FOO function and I want to verify that the RESULT-TYPE is a type of FOO, where there are several types of FOO. Initially, I was doing (eq RESULT-TYPE 'FOO), but thought that was too crude, so I decide to read the SBCL sources to see how it's done there. The way SBCL does it is much too general and complicated. Is using (EQ RESULT-TYPE 'FOO) basically correct? 14:51:44 but my question was about high level languages, as there might be people in the room that can compare the abilty - instead i get the impression you are making fun of me 14:51:47 mega1: right. It bothered me a bit to use a mutex for a barrier, but it doesn't really matter. 14:52:00 what about erlang? 14:52:03 tmh: subtypep. 14:52:11 joschan: this channel gets its share of people mocking lisp, too 14:52:12 and why nobody says "lisp is cool" - this is the lisp room 14:52:20 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-207-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:53:06 joschan: Of what use is it to here that Lisp is cool from people already drinking the cool-aid? 14:53:11 joschan: I told you explicitly that I was making fun of you. 14:53:11 s/here/hear/ 14:53:14 what i have seen of lisp is very convincing to me - but if even the lisp room does not believe in it why should i go further deeper into it? 14:53:38 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-224-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:53:39 *aggieben* thinks joschan should head for #java 14:53:42 joschan: perhaps a trained professional could help 14:53:58 forget java i hate it 14:54:02 joschan: we do believe in lisp. but its not our job to make your language choice. try it out, you'll see what its good at 14:54:03 cmm: haha. 14:54:14 cmm: ;) 14:54:16 joschan: perhaps we believe in Lisp but not in you 14:54:19 lisp rewards those who try it without the need for evangelists or cheerleaders 14:54:33 joschan: lisp would be a fine language for you to use. The reason you're not getting useful information from this channel is because you're asking questions that to professionals, look like nonsense 14:54:40 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-135.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:54:56 dlowe: i'll drink to that 14:55:22 not necessarily like nonsense, just too vague to be answerable meaningfully 14:55:25 Xof: exposing access to the underlying vector (so that we can copy random states, but also reliably export/import them) and the new (from 2002) initialisation routine seems pretty good to me. 14:55:29 pkhuong: Thanks, I don't know how I missed that. Sometimes I get the worst tunnel vision, hence my questions on #lisp. 14:55:32 sorry for my bad english 14:55:40 joschan: it's not your english 14:56:19 pkhuong: I was meaning more that e.g. someone might want a random-state which wasn't a PRNG at all but always used /dev/random directly, and someone else might want a CPRNG, and... 14:56:20 joschan: the term "artificial intelligence system" is utterly meaningless. then you said "knows about OS objects and users".....well, .....ok. that doesn't tell us much either. 14:56:27 i would like to concentrate on solutions 14:56:38 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:56:45 pkhuong: also really I am thinking academically (i.e. papers) rather than for an immediate user benefit 14:56:56 the thing is, if you are capable of building the system you describe, you are probably capable of evaluating language choices without our help 14:56:57 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:57:01 psyllo [n=psyllo@72-255-13-75.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:02 you can you concentrate on solutions if you haven't articulated the problem? 14:57:04 -!- psyllo [n=psyllo@72-255-13-75.client.stsn.net] has left #lisp 14:57:07 joschan: you are now failing the turing test 14:57:18 pkhuong: also your concern about streaming PRNGs (I'm not 100% convinced that my analysis is right) 14:58:14 the ability to rewrite the code it is currently running, i think this is an important point 14:58:23 joschan: why? 14:58:36 a lisp image can be modified while it is running, check 14:58:55 guaqua: yeah, but it's _compiled_, which is obviously bad 14:59:25 guaqua: if he's using multiple processes, he could use C++ to update code, recompile, and launch new, smarter processes 14:59:27 i did not know that there is an image running 14:59:44 Xof: oh. How many standard functions use *random-state*? Unless we're looking at rewriting something like cl-variates or a simulation package, I'm not certain I see the point. I don't see any way to offer an interface that's more interesting than the obvious single dispatch one, at least not conveniently (yet). 14:59:47 joschan: if you want to evaluate lisp, I strongly suggest "practical common lisp" 14:59:51 Xof: well, now that you put it that way, yes. lisp doesn't seem like a good fit :) 14:59:56 -!- segv__ is now known as segv 15:00:04 joschan: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book 15:00:12 ok. he's a bot. 15:00:43 aggieben: the only semantically meaningful sentence fragments containing the words "smarter" and "c++" are variants on "smarter than c++" 15:01:15 Hmm, how often do bots show up on IRC trying to pass the Turing test and who is running the experiment? 15:01:28 And I don't mean the intentional contents. 15:01:30 how often do humans show up on IRC trying to pass the Turing test? 15:01:37 s/contents/contests/ 15:01:59 it's the times when the humans manage to fail it that are interesting. 15:02:17 why do you say it's the times when the humans manage to fail it that are interesting? 15:02:17 this was in dilbert just the other day 15:02:18 re streaming PRNGs, they also make correlated variables (especially with multiple runs) easier to implement. Otherwise, you have to generate shared seeds (and hope that you're not incredibly unlucky). 15:02:26 trying to pass the Turing test is evidence of a computer imposter 15:02:42 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:49 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:02:52 pkhuong: well, only RANDOM really (and it can take an explicit state parameter). I'm not talking about having new high-level functions (e.g. RANDOM-NORMAL-VARIATE or anything), I'm talking about allowing the user to subclass RANDOM-STATE 15:02:54 Maybe Xah is a particularly rude one 15:02:57 the idea of having an image looks interesting. it would be some kind of the intelligent core. so it should be able to save it's state. be able to revert to prior version. be able to duplicate. can the state of the image somehow be exported? 15:03:24 joschan: all we mean by image is "a bunch of bits". don't get ahead of yourself. 15:03:25 i think a human that causes a person to suspect they're a software robot is more interesting than a software robot that fails to convince a human he's human. 15:03:36 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:46 ((lambda x x) 1); returns (1) 15:03:47 Fade: artificial intelligence vs natural stupidity 15:03:50 what is going on here? 15:04:05 JoelMcCracken: ask #scheme. 15:04:07 we don't even have artificial stupidity yet, so I guess the turing test isn't symmetrical. ;) 15:04:14 its quiet right now =( 15:04:20 JoelMcCracken: even better. 15:04:26 if nothing else, it would sort of excuse the terrifying political and personal sections of his blog 15:04:28 there was an artificial insanity program in the late 80s 15:04:29 *site 15:04:31 hmm? 15:05:05 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05:27 the questions he's asking remind me of those freelancer gigs like "I need a complete clone of eBay in one month! I'm willing to pay up to $500!!!!" 15:06:00 followed by all the bids for $450 15:06:08 you all are paying to much attention 15:06:10 who are yall talking about? 15:06:10 no no, 'cause then he'd be in #php 15:06:23 JoelMcCracken: not you, don't worry 15:06:28 saikat [n=saikat@r253170217.resnet.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 15:06:30 willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:06:35 pff I know, I'm interested 15:06:55 just another person who heard "lisp" in a sentence conjuncted with "AI" 15:06:59 if it is like the smalltalk image then i would not like it. it was broken all the time. if you wanted a good one you had to try many different libraries that were broken against each others. i left smalltalk for that reason, no good version control - and it was very hard to find out what a given smalltalk image actually consisted of and i got frustrated in the process 15:07:08 Xof: I guess we'll want to play with the struct hierarchy a bit, but user-extensible random-state sounds doable. 15:07:22 minion: tell JoelMcCracken about logs 15:07:23 JoelMcCracken: have a look at logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 15:08:26 ah sorry, didn't even think of that 15:09:32 pkhuong: I am imagining something similar to the sequences 15:09:54 yes, here it is: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2009-03-16 15:09:59 NOT AGAIN 15:10:04 *tmh* chuckles 15:10:15 damnit, I will kick and ban the next person who links that strip 15:10:18 I don't think our transform on (random word) gives a flat distribution. 15:10:34 ?? 15:10:46 I wanted sooo bad to post it earlier, but thought it would be more satisfying to see someone else do it. It WAS. 15:11:51 joschan: didnt see anyone answered you, but yes, you can "export" the state of the current image by dumping. the image concept is one of the cooler things with cl really. :) 15:12:06 pkhuong: ? 15:12:10 Xof: careful...I might right an /artificial intelligence system/ that will index the entire history of strips, tag each one with keywords, and then feed it to a bot in this channel that will post any strip whose tags match words that are transmitted to this channel 15:12:17 there's another issue. Speed versus accurate probabilities. 15:12:41 indeed 15:12:42 Xof: (rem [random-word] limit) is only good if limit is a power of 2. 15:13:25 that's true but I see %inclusive-random-integer-accept-reject in src/compiler/integer-tran.lisp 15:14:49 hey, look, there's a different transform 15:15:51 ah, the "artificial insanity" program was called Racter. I only remember seeing the ads for it 15:16:22 hypno: thank you. i am not sure will i learn about images in the practical common lisp book already? i searched it with google btw thank you for the book link aggieben 15:16:36 My image ends up using the one in float-tran. 15:16:42 joschan: you're welcome 15:16:47 pkhuong: I can believe that 15:17:04 actually I'm not sure I've _ever_ seen the insides of integer-tran and I'm not convinced it's even in the build 15:17:14 "to foil the maintenance programmer..." 15:17:31 the smalltalk image is a single huge file that is partly loaded/executed in memory and rewritten afterwards or on request. how about the lips image - it's a singel huge file? 15:18:07 i promise this is the last question for today 15:18:28 joschan: i think the concepts are very much alike in both st and cl, yes. 15:18:38 reaver___ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 15:19:12 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:19:45 thank you all for today, i will have to do more research 15:19:52 good luck 15:20:31 aggieben: i will engrave your name on the forehead of the first wave of robots that my system builds that will take over the planet 15:20:53 won't that hurt them? 15:21:08 they will be proud of it 15:21:28 robots with pride? 15:22:34 comes with intelligence! 15:23:01 You want them to have enough pride to do a good job, but not too much. 15:23:07 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:23:16 pride is one of the basic emotional intelligence circuits of course 15:23:47 no, to be honest i would give them: the will to survive, a sense of justice, a sense of humour 15:24:19 we will salute you when you claim the nobel prize. 15:24:32 *tmh* muzzles himself. 15:24:58 oh dear 15:25:18 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:25:23 humour is a particularly abstract ill-defined.... thing 15:25:30 anyway, robots never have it 15:25:30 joschan: and make them unable to harm humans (otherwise, survival instinct and sense of justice may make them kill us all) 15:25:34 ask any Asimov 15:25:37 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:45 Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 15:26:05 rsynnott: they may have bugs that have funny consequences 15:26:13 *Fade* sits on his hands so as not to riff on Battlestar Galactica 15:26:46 the most important rule is to never trust a machine - but the human brains will have to implement this first- i fear they wont 15:27:02 Must... Not... Type... Must... Limit.... SNR 15:27:06 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:35 ok i am leaving for now. i appologize for my stupidity and thanks for your kindness! it was a pleasure i would not have expected so much help! 15:27:36 bye 15:27:36 tmh: :) 15:27:48 -!- joschan [n=ad@xdsl-78-34-41-14.netcologne.de] has left #lisp 15:28:05 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:28:09 huh 15:28:16 hey, SFMT doesn't seem too bad to compile by hand; probably better than MT actually. 15:28:21 well, that's the surreal quotient met before noon. 15:28:51 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 15:29:12 if he wasn't on a german ISP I'd suspect he was the second coming of that guy who wanted to write the ULTIMATE INTELLIGENT PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE, in Lisp 15:29:45 garbage in.. etc. 15:30:44 "RedHat claims patent on SOAP over CGI" 15:30:59 i suspect the end-times are actually upon us. 15:31:19 it's gonna be perl and php, all the way down. 15:31:39 they are welcome to it 15:31:59 though why specifically over CGI should be patentable, I don't know 15:32:27 not over cgi is patented by someone else? 15:32:37 how do you do anything 'over' cgi? 15:33:00 'with' and 'to' work in that conjunction. 15:33:52 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:34:26 The patent office has little knowledge of these interwebby things, so don't expect them to understand that distinction. 15:34:28 well, it passes the "non-obvious" criterion 15:34:46 ah, Blake Southwood, that was the person 15:34:52 at least on the grounds that it's completely fricking opaque why anyone would use SOAP over anything at all ever 15:35:21 SOAP is the ultimate ironic acronym. 15:35:41 no, that would be TUIA 15:35:45 "Simple" in a protocl acronym is like "Democratic" in the name of a country 15:36:06 or, to remind you of days gone by, "Science" in an academic discipline 15:36:16 heh 15:36:29 (these days CS departments are calling themselves "Informatics" to try to get round that. Need a new rule) 15:36:33 ditto "lightweight", whuile we're here 15:36:39 Fade: it's all lies except for the third letter, which is marginal 15:36:56 i actually built a SOAP system, once. 15:37:00 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:03 nebar again. 15:37:21 got in a bit of a lather, did you? 15:37:37 (blake southwood deleted his blog with the totally insane lisp rantings :( ) 15:37:44 -!- sweemeng [n=sweemeng@118.101.45.49] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:37:47 I got it to work, but all the profit was swallowed by the costs of therapy. 15:37:51 (though still has this gem: http://younoodle.com/people/blake_southwoodb) 15:39:02 -!- jlf` [n=user@nmd.sbx05975.petalca.wayport.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:39:15 does he know brucio? 15:39:26 jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 15:39:41 one day I'd like to know which of you miscreants is responsible for the brucio amalgam. 15:39:52 "Coded SQL engine for JavaScript and it opened my mind to solving impossible problems." 15:39:59 lol 15:40:00 I was wondering about mentifex, myself 15:40:02 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:40:22 Fade: Xach. 15:40:30 terrifyingly, he has a patent 15:40:38 "Redesigned Lisp so it makes sense and then stumbled on discovery for doing ltierature programming" 15:40:40 mein gott 15:40:48 (though not one that could stand up in court, I don't think) 15:40:50 lol 15:40:51 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has quit [] 15:41:05 xach doesn't come around much anymore. 15:41:36 cads [n=max@adsl-145-181-159.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:39 "Developed Software .Entering The Forbidden City. to build software in minutes instead of a month. Encountered symbolic link error in unix. " 15:41:52 *rsynnott* is going to rewrite CV in this style 15:41:52 *Fade* laughs 15:42:11 *guaqua* is amused 15:42:40 he has an appropriate degree 15:43:02 Proclaimed Keeper of the Key of Y'shgortha. Went out in rain without hat. 15:43:03 a BA in psych is like going to school for 'communications' 15:43:11 well, or he doesn't. Says he dropped out. 15:43:11 just don't tell keith olberman 15:43:53 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-106-58.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 15:44:06 ah, found the amusing job ad: http://www.alu.org/pipermail/uk-lispers/2006q4/000169.html 15:44:31 and terrifyingly, he apparently hired someone: http://www.alu.org/pipermail/uk-lispers/2006q3/000166.html 15:44:46 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:44:59 why does the name Alex Peake rinf a bell? 15:45:01 now i'm laughing :) 15:45:32 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:45:49 and this (VERY similar to what the guy who just left was talking about): http://osdir.com/ml/lisp.region.turkey/2006-07/msg00055.html 15:46:59 the last one is brilliantly over the top 15:47:08 alex peake filled in the survey on cliki 15:47:27 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:47:32 guaqua: the worst of it was, it wasn't another brucio; this was quite clear when his blog was still there 15:47:57 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:47:57 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:48:28 ah, alex peake also presented at ILC 15:48:38 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:39 'algorithm engine that generates 1 trillion algorithms per second' 15:48:44 so he apparently lured an actual competent person into this insanity 15:49:20 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:52 well, i guess if the cheques clear. 15:50:35 Seems to me that emulating the MCP from Tron would be a bad idea. Didn't he see what happened in the movie? 15:50:50 =) 15:51:14 come on.. it will learn new fuzzy logic rules :) 15:52:49 If the body of a DEFUN is an implicit PROGN, why do I frequently see PROGN inside DEFUN's? Paranoia? 15:53:07 tmh: Frequently? 15:53:10 progns directly inside defuns? 15:53:24 Or LET's 15:53:37 Great, now I need to go find an example. 15:54:22 progn seems to happen inside (if ...) constructs 15:54:26 people like to adhere to the common indenting practices but at the same time want to indent more than necessary? 15:54:28 tmh: I can believe that there is at least one person out there doing that, and that in software written by that person, there would be several examples, but I don't think many people would do that. 15:54:31 usually 'cause people don't like cond. 15:54:46 -!- bbe [n=bbe@121.229.26.190] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:55:17 or because they are paul graham 15:55:54 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:57:03 Well, your general responses answered my question. I was basically worried that I was missing something. 15:57:37 in graham's case, perhaps a holdover from lisp1? 15:57:49 dynamic scope? i dunno. 15:57:50 vng [n=vuong@222.253.94.82] has joined #lisp 15:58:02 i'm thinking of the onion talk. onion talk and using useless progns 15:58:09 vng: welcome! 15:58:31 hello beach 15:58:46 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:59:08 i think somebody with an nntp server should newgroup comp.lang.lisp.kooks 15:59:12 vng: Are you making progress with learning Lisp? 15:59:33 yes 15:59:38 they'd never agree to be deported there 15:59:41 vng: Excellent! 15:59:57 anyway, there are only about three or four regulars now 16:00:05 well, the semantics of a kook hierarchy are well understood. the deportation isn't exactly agreed upon by the kook in question. :) 16:00:12 I can run the demo using mcclim 16:00:15 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 16:00:23 vng: That's great! 16:00:32 I install tools needed 16:01:00 vng: There should be a calculator demo actually. 16:01:06 But it's hard to write a GUI program now 16:01:30 you need to fool them into going there of their own accord (alt.sci.physics.plutonium did not work, alt.sci.physics.new-theories did, for instance) 16:01:40 vng: Yeah, McCLIM is a big library, and it looks very different from GUI libraries for other langauges, auch as Swing or GTK. 16:01:56 yeah, 16:02:32 vng: Also, if you have anyone in the group with graphics training, McCLIM needs to look prettier to attract more users. 16:02:49 beach: have you seen commonqt? 16:03:00 no 16:03:03 Fade: I might have. 16:03:11 Fade: where would I have seen it? 16:03:13 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:20 lichtblau released cl bindings for qt4.5 using smoke. 16:03:20 it's quite impressive 16:03:20 what is commonqt? 16:03:32 unpronouncable 16:03:35 minion: commonqt 16:03:36 commonqt: a Common Lisp binding to the smoke library for Qt. http://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/ 16:03:55 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp440.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 16:04:00 Fade: did you tell me about it because you think McCLIM should emulate its looks? 16:04:23 you could possibly use it as a backend for mcclim 16:04:24 use it for a backend? 16:04:49 hmm 16:04:52 I'm sure that will make lichtblau very happy. He can be responsible for both the gtk and the qt backends 16:04:55 -!- diracdelta [n=diracdel@c-67-180-160-69.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:05:07 well, no, i mentioned it because it conforms more to the knowledge gained by somebody working with a gui toolkit in another language than mcclim does. 16:05:18 Fade: then I am not interested. 16:05:28 diracdelta [n=diracdel@c-67-180-160-69.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:36 i dunno if that makes for better or worse pedagogy 16:06:46 i guess that'd depend on what you're teaching, though. 16:06:53 Yeah, hard to say. 16:07:46 i'm just chuffed because of the available toolkits, I like qt best. 16:08:03 so it's nice to have lisp bindings. 16:08:20 segyr [n=terje@144.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 16:08:28 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [No route to host] 16:08:55 Fade: of the available GUI toolkits, I like McCLIM the best, and it is even better than bindings, because it's native. 16:09:00 -!- ASau` [n=user@77.246.231.132] has quit ["Off!"] 16:09:07 -!- segyr [n=terje@144.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:09:39 *nod* 16:11:18 I am sure vng and the others will eventually get to McCLIM, and perhaps even improve it one day, but I think it is probably best to concentrate on the Lisp language first, the way the Common Lisp HyperSpec defines it. 16:12:42 I concentrate on mcclim, and in the beginning it's seem hard 16:12:47 if you just want to blat pretty pictures to the screen, I'd probably recommend direct clx calls. less to go wrong 16:12:59 "blat"? 16:13:00 -!- _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:05 because i need to understand the basically structure of cl 16:13:15 beach: you know, spray 16:13:33 er, "draw, carelessly" I suppose. 16:13:35 what tmh said 16:13:39 vng: That's very amitious, because McCLIM uses a huge subset of Common Lisp compared to other applications. 16:14:06 I'm not convinced that's a bad thing 16:14:40 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 16:14:41 Xof: nor am I, which is why I used that wording, rather than some others. 16:14:58 what I think makes mcclim hard to pick up is never being quite sure whether what you see is a bug, a feature, actually intended behaviour or some dubious interaction between pieces of code which were written independently and then stitched together 16:15:06 blbrown_lt [n=blbrown@80.sub-70-223-220.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 16:15:23 (and also it's hard to get any kind of answer on that question: see recent mcclim-devel traffic) 16:15:32 dan_b: SDL might be helpful there, too 16:15:33 Xof: I think that's an accurate description, yes. 16:15:49 _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 16:16:01 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [Client Quit] 16:16:12 Xof: I am not convinced the situation is that much better with other GUI libraries, though. 16:16:54 I remember using Tcl/Tk, and never being sure when the packer was executed, for instance. 16:18:04 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:18:26 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B6E7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:18:30 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:05 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:09 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:22:21 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-78.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 16:24:20 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:24:59 hmmm, commonqt looks cool! 16:26:24 i agree 16:26:32 lichtblau does good work. 16:27:45 i have to give it a try 16:28:00 ivantis2 [n=ivantis@71.158.214.226] has joined #lisp 16:28:11 -!- ivantis2 [n=ivantis@71.158.214.226] has left #lisp 16:28:19 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:51 Does commonqt requires smoke2 for qt 4.5? It compiled on my other machine but the examples don't work. I get an error like "Index of 1345 is out of range" 16:29:16 pretty sure 16:29:51 The-Kenny: does anything display, or does it just give that immediately? 16:29:57 "It was developed using the LGPLed smoke 2 from kdebindings svn and Qt 4.5 and is available under a BSD-style license." 16:30:01 rsynnott: It just throws this error. 16:30:14 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:30:29 it wants smoke2 16:30:46 there is a smoke1 branch 16:31:14 I installed smoke2 with apt-get, but for Qt 4.4.3 or so. But my "main"-Qt is 4.5. I think it used smoke2 for 4.4.3 and Qt 4.5. Maybe this was the problem. 16:31:35 I will try it with smoke2 from svn tomorrow or so. 16:31:39 try smoke2 from kde svn 16:33:10 also see the "Fixme: Type mappings" on the commonqt project page 16:34:44 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-106-58.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:37:55 anyone browsing common-lisp.net could be excused for thinking that 'BSD-style' was actually the name of a license 16:38:28 yep, you might need the svn one 16:39:54 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.162.151] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:40:04 KalifG [n=user@166.128.162.151] has joined #lisp 16:41:35 spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.20.66] has joined #lisp 16:41:49 -!- spradnyesh2 [n=pradyus@117.192.20.66] has quit [Client Quit] 16:47:03 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51:05 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 16:51:48 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:51:50 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-34-198.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:52:59 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151257.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 16:53:24 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 16:53:51 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:58 -!- sepisultrum [n=enigma@ks35219.kimsufi.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:56:27 Xof: Is anyone in your group working on Gsharp at the moment? 16:56:51 kind of 16:57:08 -!- p_l [i=plasek@korn.rootnode.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:10 sepisultrum [n=enigma@ks35219.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:31 Xof: If you have stuff hanging around that you want to commit, this might be a good time. 16:57:42 uhoh 16:58:32 I think we have: almost-complete time-signature support; prototype support for plainchant notation; prototype select-copy-cut-paste; 16:59:00 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:09 Xof: as long as it doesn't break too much of the existing stuff, you might as well commit it. 16:59:32 and possibly something else lurking 16:59:43 what's going on at your end? 16:59:49 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:00:01 I probably can't (get the miscreant in question to) commit anything until next week 17:00:07 Xof: Well, deliana is probably going to start modifying stuff soon. 17:00:24 Xof: I think that might do. 17:00:54 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-78.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:01:59 I'll see what I can do 17:02:03 what is deliana going to work on? 17:02:21 Xof: I have suggested incremental redisplay 17:02:35 that shouldn't collide with much of our stuff 17:02:36 p_l [i=plasek@korn.rootnode.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:36 Xof: so it might be totally different from your stuff anyway. 17:02:42 right. 17:02:49 isiah [n=bad_guy@dhcp083-176.openport.buffalo.edu] has joined #lisp 17:03:08 but I won't tell david that; maybe we can motivate him to finish some stuff this way :-) 17:03:22 Good plan! 17:05:06 We had a meeting with the steering committee of the SCRIME yesterday, and I told them that things are looking brighter (journal paper accepted, funding from LaBRI-transfert, possible PhD), and that made some of the composers somewhat excited about it. 17:05:40 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-78.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 17:05:56 have you heard anything about the journal paper since we sent off the forms? 17:06:12 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-78.wireless.pitt.edu] has left #lisp 17:06:13 Nope. I am assuming everything is fine. 17:06:24 hmmm, is it normal to have 3 nested lambdas inside a function or there's something is really wrong with my code? 17:06:33 the latter 17:06:56 probably you should name some of your functions, to help the reader (who might be yourself in six months' time) 17:07:19 abeaumont, maybe you do currying/composition? there are CURRY and COMPOSE in Alexandria.. 17:07:53 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 17:08:58 labels, flet could help 17:10:08 -!- vng [n=vuong@222.253.94.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:19 curry may be the better solution i guess, i'll take a look 17:13:12 -!- aerique [n=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 17:13:48 curry is rarely unsatisfactory 17:17:07 what do you mean? 17:17:18 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:18:10 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-192.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:19:00 I wonder if currying reader macros are frowned upon. 17:19:22 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:19:43 hello 17:20:03 Greetings fe[nl]ix. 17:20:16 greetings tmh 17:21:09 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-2ce31228e131b232] has joined #lisp 17:22:05 kmcorbett1 [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:45 I'd personally like seeing a commonly agreed-upon reader macro for currying, because otherwise I'm reluctant to use such a thing in my code. 17:22:55 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 17:23:50 Same for composition. 17:24:24 deepfire: there are only a teeny tiny number of standard characters available for reader customization by the user, either for reader macro or dispatch reader macro 17:24:36 what is so important about currying that it's worth giving one of them up? 17:25:21 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit ["Be back later"] 17:25:29 (counterpoint: if you aren't limiting yourself to standard characters, then just go ahead and use \uffe1 or something 17:25:31 hmmm finally used compose instead of curry, much more readable code now, thanks! 17:25:55 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-185-40.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:27:27 *abeaumont* doesn't understand the problem with curry/compose and reader macros, and uses them happily in his ignorance 17:27:49 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:02 abeaumont, you could, for example, do [+ 1] instead of (curry #'+ 1), but that would mean you'd conflict with 3rd-party code which might use the #\[ reader macro slot for its own needs. 17:29:23 josemanuel [n=josemanu@56.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:29:40 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:30:00 I'm fond of the (op + _) notation, myself 17:30:21 deepfire: oh, i see. But just using (curry #'+ 1) is fine, rigth? 17:30:23 (op + _ 1) 17:30:24 i like CURRY. 17:30:31 abeaumont: better than fine! 17:30:32 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx14502.ashbuva.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:34 abeaumont, sure 17:30:57 *abeaumont* feels safer now :) 17:31:07 abeaumont: reader macros considered harmful ;) 17:32:32 dlowe, there's no reason the #\[ macro couldn't walk the expression and do the reasonable thing wrt. #\_. 17:32:55 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@56.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 17:33:00 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BB6A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:03 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:33:05 deepfire: no, but I don't like using #\[ as a read macro. *shrug* 17:34:55 One of the problems with #\[ is that there is RCURRY as well.. 17:35:40 you could use ] for that 17:35:56 ][ :) 17:35:59 -!- kmcorbett [n=Keith@c-76-119-215-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:36:28 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250031.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:36:47 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:14 Xof, only out of desperation, otherwise the conflict of [] and ][ would be visually unbearable. 17:38:00 [ ... ] ... [ ... ] => ?!? 17:39:10 so not my problem 17:39:25 c|mell [n=cmell@x250007.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:45:27 i saw a project last year that used #\[ to dispatch list comprehensions 17:46:11 which is a haskell feature I actually like. :) 17:46:55 Hmm, anyone got commonqt.cpp to compile with smoke from SVN? 17:47:11 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 17:47:18 writing code has never been my bottleneck, and i find read macros hinder readability in general. 17:47:55 my futureCL would probably drop a couple of reader macros. :) 17:49:28 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:50:55 The former isn't why one should like such a thing, whereas the latter is subjective. 17:52:14 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-02ed6.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:36 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44B10.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:22 drewc, nevertheless, I'd be interested to know what you find disposable.. 17:54:23 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:54:28 per-package reader macros would be a useful addition 17:54:44 dan_b, ! Very much so! 17:55:04 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:55:06 then you can have #\[ to compose in your package without interfering with its use in sql syntax in A N Other's package 17:55:06 dan_b, deepfire: do you know about tcr's named-readtables? 17:55:09 Martinp23 [i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23] has joined #lisp 17:55:37 luis, looking for it.. 17:56:26 CommonQT uses it. 18:02:50 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:05:29 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [] 18:06:27 dan_b: per package _readers_ is the key, IMO. With a MOP like package/reader protocol. 18:06:49 while we're at it, lets give packages some hierarchical scoping 18:07:34 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:08:12 Looks like named-readtables is completely satisfactory for my needs. 18:08:27 luis, thanks! 18:09:31 deepfire: i think we could lose #*, for example. 18:09:32 Actually, my favorite use of read-macro #\[ is as a BRL-like template 18:10:04 Hello, [(first-name-of person)]! 18:11:43 On a second thought, *readtable* doesn't have a compilation-unit scope, so in-readtable must be used by all participants. 18:11:48 jao [n=jao@148.Red-83-39-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:26 I think it'd be ok if *package* implied a default *readtable* 18:12:28 *deepfire* once again wishes for compilation-unit scope.. 18:12:44 dlowe, marry named-readtable to conduits? 18:13:02 (defpackage foo (:readtable-class non-standard-readtable)) 18:13:59 or even better (defpacakge foo (:metapackage my-package-with-my-readable)) 18:14:59 dlowe, that'd still require cooperation from all participants -- in form of use of accordingly capable package definition facilities. 18:15:11 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:18:13 a person can dream, eh 18:18:34 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has quit [] 18:19:12 We get new lisps all the time, from idiocies like newlisp to inspired things like Clojure. 18:19:46 Yet old good Common Lisp stands the same. 18:20:17 Nobody will standartize on obviously good things, no matter what. 18:20:33 You say that like it's a good thing. I love CL as much as anyone, but it'd be nice if there was a little forward momentum 18:20:41 even slow momentum 18:20:53 dlowe, see my last line.. 18:20:55 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:12 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:21:26 deepfire: CL was standardized once upon a time. Your generalization doesn't withstand scrutiny 18:21:55 dlowe, it was meant to describe the current situation, sorry. 18:21:57 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:22:40 Not everyone was sold on CL when it first came out, either. You never know what's going to be a success until much later 18:22:52 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 18:22:58 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-132-204.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:11 dlowe: it was a success? 18:23:30 slyrus_: compared to interlisp and maclisp? yeah, I'd say so 18:23:42 *dlowe* was speaking in relative terms. 18:24:06 xlisp was/is another CL competitor, and it's certainly marginal 18:24:14 islisp 18:24:17 dlowe: nice low bar there :) 18:25:12 dlowe: wasn't CL designed to replace Maclisp directly? 18:25:33 not in direct code but as continuation of it? 18:26:34 p_l: as I understand it, it was mostly to minimize the pain of converting old code from many lisps, primarily maclisp and interlisp. I wasn't there, though 18:27:42 dlowe: afaik it had a heavy maclisp slant in it's direction 18:27:54 p_l: sure 18:28:09 given the author of CLtL it's not surprising :P 18:28:24 now where did I have this maclisp compiler... 18:28:31 -!- H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:29:40 has anyone ever written a DNS resolver for ITS? Recompiling the HOSTS file can be inconvenient these days... 18:34:32 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:04 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:35:05 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-233-222.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:45 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:41:47 milanj [n=milan@79.101.220.189] has joined #lisp 18:43:09 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 18:46:38 josemanuel [n=josemanu@222.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:48:43 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-217.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:15 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.162.151] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:26 KalifG [n=user@166.128.162.151] has joined #lisp 18:54:13 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:57 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [No route to host] 19:00:05 -!- blbrown_lt [n=blbrown@80.sub-70-223-220.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:55 younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 19:03:08 When is it prudent to avoid using 'eval'? 19:03:24 <_3b> when you can? 19:03:26 younder: almost always? 19:04:21 I wrote a answer to the effect: It copies the read enviroment. Does not share the lexical scope of it's parent. Is slow to start. In all it is better to use 'compile. 19:04:44 ah you want _why_ 19:05:00 yes 19:05:24 because people in #lisp would laugh at you 19:05:27 compile and eval have different uses 19:05:43 'because you usually aren't implementing a repl' 19:06:50 Wel I was thinking along the lines of the lexical closures of CL-PPCRE. 19:07:54 eval falls in that wonderful area of "do not use, except when you do" 19:08:22 and if you think you need eval, you're probably wrong 19:08:23 just please don't say "GOTO^WEVAL considered harmful" :P 19:09:12 eval considered evil 19:09:29 except when ev(i)l is good 19:09:33 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:59 eval is nice for an interface, not so much for computation 19:10:24 agreed 19:11:10 psyllo [n=psyllo@72-255-13-75.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:13 however, in a way, it's the most important function ;-) 19:12:30 -!- psyllo [n=psyllo@72-255-13-75.client.stsn.net] has left #lisp 19:12:34 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:13:01 Well it drives the REPL.. 19:13:31 younder: the proper answer is "If I implement eval in machinecode, I'll get a Lisp implementation" :) 19:14:06 though it's a rather obscure historical reference :) 19:14:27 Yes, too much machinery for a simple task. 19:14:40 it drives everything 19:14:43 and the meta brought forth eval and there was lisp 19:15:48 younder: the line about eval in machine code was supposedly said by a student (Steele) to professor (McCarthy) some time after a lecture about this imaginary language called LISP :) 19:16:58 you don't need eval at all 19:17:29 I disagree 19:17:46 Well, I'm talking about a lisp without GC here... :P 19:17:54 try implementing lisp without eval 19:18:01 implement a good compile and eval is unnecessary 19:18:13 isn't eval one of the axioms? 19:18:14 mle: then compile is equivalent to eval 19:18:22 (defun eval (form) (funcall (compile form))) 19:18:41 p_l: that's kinda meaningless to say; the turing equivalence is not in doubt here. 19:18:43 Say you take a quuation as input to a probram. I would happily compile it to Lisp and feed it to eval 19:18:49 equation 19:18:55 stassats`: you forgot a lambda. 19:19:31 pkhuong: just a sketch 19:19:43 -!- diracdelta [n=diracdel@c-67-180-160-69.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:19:47 I'm not sure what the interaction with toplevelness would be. 19:20:37 you still EVALuate the parameters 19:20:38 pkhuong: It sees the 'special' variables, but not the lexical ones 19:21:58 guaqua: no; interpretation is pushed down to the machine-code level 19:22:16 depending on what you compile-To 19:22:37 and does it make it anything else but eval on the level of machine code? 19:23:07 what exactly do you think a processor is? 19:23:16 core 2 duo is my eval 19:24:02 That is implementation dependent. SBCL usually compiles eveything, so does Corman CL, other implementations do not 19:24:06 mle: if you go down long enough, yes, there is a processor 19:24:32 so good, we have the basics of von neumann machine covered 19:25:13 i think you kinda missed what I was saying. A processor gives you an evaluator for some instruction set. 19:25:49 eval is a neat party trick, and of great historical significance, but a high-level eval isn't really among the most important features of CL as a language anymore. 19:26:27 Often you can use a macro to avoid eval.. 19:27:37 mle: it's all being optimized away, yes 19:28:19 dwave [n=ask@062016247112.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 19:28:42 Unfortunately sometimes EVAL is the only recourse when you have to patch around the fact that not everything has a functional interface in CL. 19:29:37 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx14502.ashbuva.wayport.net] has quit [] 19:30:16 deepfire: Would you care to elaborate? 19:31:16 younder, suppose you want to rename a class slot at runtime. 19:31:20 -!- dwave [n=ask@062016247112.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:01 I'm not sure, but even just slot addition might be enough. 19:33:47 This is where I would use 'compile'.. 19:34:11 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:21 younder, what will be the gain? You cannot compile it ahead of time anyway -- the slot name the user wants to rename isn't known until runtime. 19:35:41 diracdelta [n=diracdel@c-67-180-132-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:55 is there really an implementation that doesn't support ENSURE-CLASS? 19:35:56 H4ns [n=hans@m195a36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:20 non that I know of 19:36:30 has anyone looked at writing Selenium binding for CL?? 19:36:37 s/\?\?/?/ 19:37:04 so, i'd probably choose that over COMPILE or EVAL :) 19:37:05 Selenium being the automated in-browser webapp testing tool 19:37:30 mathrick: i use DejaClick + mozrepl for my testing needs 19:37:57 drewc: care to throw an RTFM at me? 19:38:00 mathrick: Yes, I've used it. But it's Java 19:38:02 and is that automatable? 19:38:47 younder: that's why I asked for CL bindings. It's got Java, C#, Ruby, Python, etc. ones, so CL are just a small matter of programming, which I'd like to avoid :) 19:39:34 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-selenium/ 19:40:10 mathrick: dejaclick is just a macro plugin for firefox.. it was the only one that worked with my generated input NAME's. 19:40:28 drewc: selenium is pretty much the same idea 19:40:40 but I meant a link where I can read more 19:40:43 mathrick: indeed, checking it out now. 19:41:27 younder: nifty, thanks 19:41:53 mathrick: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dejaclick :) 19:42:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:42:42 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:42:42 hah 19:42:52 drewc: meanie 19:43:07 mathrick: :P 19:45:34 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 19:47:44 I must retract my defclass example. I looked up my class slot renaming issue in half-year-old IRC logs and it wasn't related to EVAL at all. 19:48:59 I had vague memories of people suggesting defclass to me, which caused false EVAL-related recollections, sorry about that. 19:50:06 -!- isiah [n=bad_guy@dhcp083-176.openport.buffalo.edu] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:50:34 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:50:43 defcall would work.. Although using MOP would work better 19:50:55 defclass 19:51:35 elena [n=chatzill@94.36.96.54] has joined #lisp 19:52:37 At the time I ended up manipulating the class/slot metaobjects and forcing an update-instance-for-redefined-class upon the class metaobject, in an unportable way.. 19:54:19 drewc: mozrepl looks useful, thanks 19:54:25 http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/stagenfun_upd_efined-class.html 19:54:45 A sad part was reconstruction of the complete slot definition information, made impossible by the lack of the slot documentation accessor. 19:55:39 MOP 19:56:14 You couldn't just copy the slotd, change its name and re-feed that back to reinitialize-instance on the class metaobject, as the latter wants slot definitions in "source form".. 19:56:29 SBCL has one of the most faithful implementations of MOP 19:56:49 According to closer-to-mop, yes. 19:58:43 younder: you wouldn't happen to know about anything to make Selenium IDE output CL for recorded sessions, would you? 19:59:44 mathrick: What would you want to know? 20:00:12 if there is anything like that 20:00:22 that saves having to code it yourself 20:00:41 It outputs a log file. 20:02:26 younder: I might be misunderstanding. I mean the Selenium IDE (ie. a firefox add-on) can record a session and then output code to do the same in $language. Is there anything to allow $language to be CL? 20:02:51 NO 20:03:22 At least not that I know of 20:03:44 ok 20:05:46 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:06:18 mathrick: CLPython? :) 20:06:32 drewc: nice try, thank you for playing :) 20:06:34 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:06:56 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 20:07:13 although I do have another project that could use CLPython, I haven't checked its status in a while 20:08:10 it's not particularly robust 20:09:02 the new CL<->Java thing seems pretty nice. 20:09:33 Beket [n=stathis@adsl-246-157.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 20:09:38 pkhuong: yeah, that's a neat one.. though i think i'd prefer the older ones that work over sockets ... you can have the jvm on another machine that way. 20:10:09 jfli and/or FOIL, iirc 20:11:03 FOIL is cool 20:11:11 pkhuong: what new thing? 20:11:23 *mathrick* only knows jfli/FOIL 20:11:23 mathrick: c-l.net/project/cl-plus-j/ 20:11:47 I'm trying to figure out why the patch is needed on SBCL. ISTR a similar bug that was quashed a couple weeks ago. 20:12:25 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:53 http://foil.sourceforge.net/ 20:13:18 younder: yeah, a friend is using foil in his thesis 20:13:24 which is why cl+j is interesting 20:13:33 -!- H4ns [n=hans@m195a36d0.tmodns.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:14:06 gah, cl+j uses #_ as does commonqt 20:14:25 -!- Beket [n=stathis@adsl-246-157.diodos.auth.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:51 dcrawford: that's really a tiny patch. 20:14:59 nah, i was hoping that this is J of APL fame 20:15:02 well, yeah 20:15:07 they should fight to death 20:15:22 ooh cl --> cl+j --> clojure ? 20:15:36 heh 20:15:45 Beket [n=stathis@adsl-246-157.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 20:16:15 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:37 The references to cool CL libraries is reason alone to lurk on #lisp, even though CL doesn't have any libraries. 20:16:59 chitech [n=khuongdp@0x573a1ea0.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:17:17 This week I was introduced to CommonQT and Foil, both very nice projects. 20:18:06 aoeu14 [i=kvirc@92.50.169.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #lisp 20:18:58 a-s [n=user@92.80.66.203] has joined #lisp 20:19:02 commonqt was released this weak for the first time 20:19:13 "revealed" 20:19:22 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:19:31 ooh foil is by Hickley .. wonder if he's done CL -> java -> clojure using it yet :) 20:19:37 *Hickey 20:19:43 testaoe [i=testaoe@92.50.169.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #lisp 20:20:29 *stassats`* is finally playing chess with gnuchess using his clim-chess 20:20:33 schmx [n=schme@c83-249-80-103.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:20:39 oooh? 20:21:49 found your git, any screenshots? 20:22:00 dcrawford: ? you don't need a GNU chess interface if you use CLIM do you? 20:22:22 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #lisp 20:23:04 younder: gnuchess also serves as the engine 20:23:34 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:45 dcrawford: http://stassats.dyndns.org/img/clim-chess.png 20:24:16 i should spend more time on it than 30 minutes per two weeks 20:24:52 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-5622.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:27:03 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 20:27:18 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:27:19 I still don't get it. GNU provides a interface, why not just provide the chess server? 20:28:47 gnuchess doesn't have GUI, it talks through xboard protocol 20:29:17 right, the xboard protocol 20:29:23 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:29:28 sorry 20:29:36 http://ejohn.org/blog/javascript-testing-does-not-scale/ <-- also somewhat relevant to the earlier browser testing talk 20:29:59 -!- frank_s [n=frank@41.145.42.12] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:30:38 mathrick: interesting 20:31:03 yup 20:32:59 -!- repnop [n=repnop@adsl-69-226-99-176.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:33:39 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp440.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:35:09 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 20:36:30 -!- younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 20:36:59 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:37:29 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 20:37:30 waterh [n=waterh@114.143.35.72] has joined #lisp 20:38:26 younder [n=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 20:40:44 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A693.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:44:03 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 20:44:54 -!- gusnoo [n=nonamme@67.100.8.114] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:03 Is it considered bad style to have more than one call to IN-PACKAGE in a file these days? 20:46:33 ask SLIME if it's happy 20:46:37 I think it is 20:47:23 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:48:00 -!- stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:48:44 stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:05 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"] 20:49:06 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 20:49:08 hmm... I wonder if osx's signal handling is busted or if our mach exception/bsd-signal handling hybrid setup isn't DTRT. 20:49:18 could be both, i spose. 20:50:28 -!- stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:51:21 jcowan: i'm going to say that unless that file is your only file, or you've got another good reason, i'd prefer two files. 20:51:36 *younder* updated to 9.64 version of opera 20:52:55 were it rewritten in lisp? 20:53:11 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-152-39.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:53:15 s/were/was/ 20:53:50 drewc: Sounds good to me. 20:53:52 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 20:54:16 What is teh win in having all your DEFPACKAGE calls in one file? 20:54:37 in packages.lisp? 20:54:38 they're not scattered around 20:54:44 it's a matter of taste 20:54:45 does someone understand exactly what GCC (or the x86 ABI) says about < int returns in registers? Are the high bits arbitrary for both signed and unsigend values? 20:56:18 -!- aoeu14 [i=kvirc@92.50.169.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 20:56:56 Urfin [i=foobar@85.65.214.215.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:56 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:57:09 pkhuong: what do you mean about < int ? 20:57:29 p_l: shorter than 32 bits. 20:57:35 mathrick: selenium is very cool. 20:57:55 mathrick: thanks for bringing it to my attention. 20:58:05 drewc: it is, you're welcome 20:58:15 pkhuong: I don't know what ABI says, but as a programmer I'd certainly prefer high bits to be zeros 20:58:19 you traded that for mozrepl, so it's fair :) 20:58:44 Maybe I should say, what is teh lose in putting each one into its own file along with the code? 20:58:47 p_l: in the real world, we don't get to choose. 20:59:12 p_l: experience tells me that when pkhuong asks about what exactly some spec says, it's scary shit where you don't get to apply your programmer preferences 20:59:22 mathrick: I see now 20:59:54 s/about// 21:00:32 ejs [n=eugen@63-134-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:52 pkhuong: what you are trying to do? (just for curiosity) 21:00:53 elias` [n=me@resnet-nat-049.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:01:07 jcowan: you mean a defpackage + in-package + code in each file? 21:01:38 drewc: Just so. 21:01:53 jcowan: you can DEFPACKAGE in every file you're going to put the code from the package in 21:02:07 assuming you're writing something non-trivial that doesn't fit entirely in one file 21:02:25 *jcowan* nods. 21:02:47 fixing a problem in SB-ALIEN; GCC recently decided to be laxer wrt high bits. I can't tell whether that has any actual impact on performace or code size, or if they're just doing it because they can (e.g. the not-so-recent DF issue in glibc) 21:03:10 mathrick: You could fix that by LOAD-ing the defpackage into each such file, no? 21:03:52 jcowan: no 21:04:10 Could you explain why not? 21:04:13 pkhuong: If I still regarded GCC highly I'd say it was to avoid additional operation ensuring zeros in high bits... 21:04:20 I don't think you have a clear idea of how code is organised in lisp 21:04:27 jcowan: because it's doing things backwards 21:04:39 you want the defpackage form to be executed once 21:04:43 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:44 I don't have a clear idea of how large-scale code is organized, no. 21:04:53 Qsquare [n=user@208.75.91.170] has joined #lisp 21:05:08 so you use something to load all the files in your project, starting with the one where things like DEFPACKAGE live 21:05:16 p_l: And I'm questionning whether those extra operations amount to anything that can even be measured on x86[-64]. 21:05:18 it can be for example load.lisp somewhere 21:05:38 or you can use ASDF to put the code in a system that has dependencies and can be depended upon 21:05:45 Saith the hyperspec: "If defined-package-name already refers to an existing package, the name-to-package mapping for that name is not changed. If the new definition is at variance with the current state of that package, the consequences are undefined; an implementation might choose to modify the existing package to reflect the new definition." 21:05:57 That at the least strongly implies that redundant DEFPACKAGE calls are harmless. 21:05:59 pkhuong, in C, since you statically know the sizes, you never look at those bits, and it's irrelevant that they are not zero. 21:06:08 jcowan: but why would you WANT to have them? 21:06:19 so there are no extra operations 21:06:26 pkhuong: One more reason why *nix ABI sucks 21:06:43 Fare: the extra operations would be to ensure correct sign extension. 21:06:48 Fare: however, if they are allowed to contain trash, the overflow bit may become corrupted. 21:06:51 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:07:27 jcowan: not if the next operation specifies the correct operand size, which it will, in C 21:07:35 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:01 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:08:06 stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:20 mathrick pasted "loading code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77362 21:08:22 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:26 jcowan: take a look 21:08:36 load.lisp loads all those files in turn 21:08:41 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["zz"] 21:08:59 pkhuong: I wouldn't be surprised if the real reason behind the change was to remove clutter from GCC's code generator : 21:09:00 it's the simplest way to make a full "project" 21:09:02 *:P 21:09:03 bangtree [n=bangtree@pool-71-98-95-27.ipslin.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:15 jcowan: usually you want something more sophisticated and robust, hence ASDF 21:09:31 I'm all for removing clutter. It's only a couple LOCs on our end anyway. 21:09:51 testaoe2 [i=testaoe@77.79.144.57.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #lisp 21:09:57 i either do everything in cl-user and #. some require calls at the top, or make an ASDF system. 21:10:06 I am primarily interested in compiling whole applications rather than components. 21:10:17 drewc: why #.? 21:10:22 minion: tell jcowan about asdf 21:10:23 jcowan: have a look at asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 21:10:24 mathrick: cause i'm lazy 21:10:31 and it's ugly. 21:10:39 so i'm not tempted to keep it there if the thing grows. 21:10:41 drewc: nono, I don't get what exactly you'd #. there 21:10:59 also, REQUIRE is not a very good thing to use, being completely unspecified 21:11:11 #.(mapcar #'require '(cxml cl-difflib arnesi)) 21:11:53 then i package qualify all symbols. 21:12:08 neodemi [n=neodemi@82-40-35-21.cable.ubr05.uddi.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:12:12 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F060.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:16 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F060.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:21 That's another style question I have: is it better to avoid explicit package-qualified symbols where possible? 21:13:18 jcowan: no, not at all. If you're only going to use a few symbols from a pacakge, just qualify them rather than import them. 21:13:29 I think it depends on the code... (and that's about all langs out there) 21:13:55 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:14:00 jcowan, why do you wanna use CL, already? 21:14:10 if i use something big, like mcclim, then i import symbols 21:14:44 carbocalm [n=drjors2@76-10-137-63.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:55 Fare: I don't. 21:14:57 stassats`: indeed .. and that would imply to the reader that 'this is a mcclim application' 21:15:17 stassats`: whereas fully a qualifed symbol might say 'i 21:15:25 -!- neodemi [n=neodemi@82-40-35-21.cable.ubr05.uddi.blueyonder.co.uk] has left #lisp 21:15:28 'i'm just using this here' 21:15:31 There are several topics on which this is one of the best communities to brain-pick, including namespaces, multiple inheritance, and multimethods. 21:15:50 There is often inherited wisdom available about the Right Thing, and more importantly, about the Wrong Thing. 21:16:06 namespaces in CL? 21:16:19 lisp-2? 21:16:25 jcowan: advice regarding CL packages I hope you count with a negative weight 21:16:31 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:16:33 Namespaces in the broader sense = CL packages. 21:17:04 Fare: If I'm going to discuss my opinions on CL it sure isn't going to be here. 21:17:14 I'd say in CL, it's pretty random -- except you try to avoid using internal packages from other packages 21:17:31 (without precluding the use when needed) 21:17:37 I didn't know CL supported nested packages. 21:17:43 not nested 21:17:55 Then what is an internal package. 21:17:56 ? 21:17:59 ejs1 [n=eugen@63-134-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:59 but you can import and reexport symbols 21:18:07 *jcowan* nods. 21:18:11 internal symbols from other packages 21:18:11 a package that ends with -sys usually :) 21:18:12 sorry 21:19:44 evenin' 21:19:57 jcowan: usually for a library you'll have an internal package for implementation details, then an external package from which you export the API etc. 21:20:07 s/usually/sometimes 21:20:24 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:18 -!- testaoe [i=testaoe@92.50.169.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:24:04 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:25:55 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:27:26 -!- bangtree [n=bangtree@pool-71-98-95-27.ipslin.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:29:19 This being a matter of conventional names, then. 21:29:26 rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151257.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:29:35 hi guys, what happened to the 150mb of slime video? 21:30:51 jcowan: yes, but is also backed by how CL packages work 21:31:08 http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 21:31:09 since importing isn't transitive 21:31:13 *jcowan* nods. 21:31:49 thanks Fade :) 21:31:58 n'p 21:32:21 good evening. My weblocks errors with "The class named WEBLOCKS::ACCEPTOR is a forward referenced class" when i try (weblocks:start-weblocks). Can anybody explain what i'm doing wrong ? 21:33:04 *rlpowell* thinks he saw that on the list... 21:33:17 -!- ejs [n=eugen@63-134-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:20 You probably made the mistake of using (OPEN :REVERSED T ...) 21:33:52 *jcowan* freaks out rlpowell yet again by pointing out that COBOL actually did have OPEN REVERSED, so you could read sequential datasets (i.e. tape) backwards. 21:34:29 yay for fixed-length records! 21:34:34 jcowan: what's so surprising there? 21:34:41 Fare: they are quite useful 21:34:45 *Fare* remembers DOS system calls for such records 21:34:58 What are your versions of Weblocks, Hunchentoot, and Chunga ? 21:35:08 carbocalm: it means something is screwed up with class declaration, and the code ends up trying to instantiate a class that's not defined yet 21:35:10 Fare: DOS had calls for this? 21:35:49 Yeah, carbocalm, you're not the first person to hit this; there were some backwards-incompatible changes lately. We apologize for the incovenience. You need Hunchentoot 1.0 and Chunga 1.0, please. 21:35:50 carbocalm: are you using a very recent hunchentoot perhaps? It's got its API changed a bit, so it might be one reason for that 21:35:54 Fare: Actually tape drives don't depend on fixed-length records, as the record boundary (or at any rate the block boundary, in the typical case of blocked tapes) is a physical entity on the tape. 21:36:00 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:36:04 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 21:36:08 mathrick: other way 'round; latest weblocks requires the new hunchentoot api. 21:36:15 -!- Beket [n=stathis@adsl-246-157.diodos.auth.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:36:34 jcowan: so you can read your tapes forward or backwards. Weehee! 21:36:37 Fare: f77 simulated this on Unix with records of the form , making it possible to read them either way. 21:36:37 rlpowell: aha 21:37:08 jcowan: VMS simply uses a definition file with the format spec :> 21:37:08 did it spell the second length backwards? 21:37:20 *chuckle* 21:37:27 thank you, i will try that. I was using sbcl on ubuntu and i'm mixing linux packages with latest downloads. 21:38:02 hmm... 21:38:14 *p_l* wonders about implementing reversed input in CL 21:38:26 carbocalm: I suggest you to download weblocks through clbuild as explained in the weblocks website 21:38:28 carbocalm: never use linux packages for CL. 21:38:34 -!- chitech [n=khuongdp@0x573a1ea0.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 21:38:36 carbocalm: clbuild is probably the best way. 21:38:46 I'm also pretty happy with mudballs so far. 21:38:51 carbo 21:38:59 this is a problem if you try to use hunchentoot 1 with weblocks-stable 21:39:16 either get weblocks-dev with hunch 1 or you can use hunchentoot 0.15.7 21:39:17 The big difference is that with mudballs, local changes can't be diffed against the repo easily. 21:39:36 saikat: I'm using weblocks stable with hunchentoot 1.0 :-) 21:39:39 yeah 21:39:41 downgrade that 21:39:44 to hunchentoot 0.15.7 21:39:54 weblocks stable is not compatible with hunchentoot 1, but weblocks-dev is 21:40:09 saikat: it's working right now 21:40:19 weblocks-dev is a frothy pile of continuous-change goodness. This is not necessarily a bad thing. :) 21:40:26 -!- rullie [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176151257.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 21:40:27 saikat: maybe there are some bugs laying around, but basically it works 21:40:28 ohh sorry i confused you with carbo =) 21:40:29 rstandy: How long ago did you grab stable? 21:41:01 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 21:41:04 rlpowell: I use weblocks-stable from darcs 21:41:33 rlpowell: well, really from clbuild, but it uses the darcs repo anyway :-) 21:41:52 *nod* 21:42:08 gentoo's common-lisp overlay works dandy for me 21:42:40 ah sorry, i was wrong, it seems leslie has updgraded weblocks stable recently - disregard me =) 21:42:44 though i did find this post - http://groups.google.com/group/weblocks/browse_thread/thread/f054aabb5182e78d/1d545773c4cf94ca?lnk=gst&q=acceptor#1d545773c4cf94ca 21:42:46 saikat: did you ever get a chance to look at my broken widget? 21:42:47 aggieben: oh, are you the guy who made the simple-blog screencasts? 21:42:52 yes 21:43:08 gentoo is about the only system (aside from the *BSD's I guess) that could potentially keep up with the revision control/distribution culture in the lisp camp. 21:43:11 hey aggieben, i think i made a response to your question on the group 21:43:17 oh, oh 21:43:19 ok 21:43:24 aggieben: hehe, thank you man, they are really helpful :-) 21:43:33 yeah the screen casts are great =) 21:43:41 rstandy: sure! my first foray into screen casting :-) 21:44:21 serfurj` [n=user@216-188-253-113.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:23 I've got more coming, but I have to figure it out first 21:44:38 aggieben: well, the video quality is not bad at all and the contents are very useful :-) 21:44:51 Fade: You mean because all the non-dead things have a release every twenty minutes? :) 21:45:12 pretty much 21:45:23 -!- jao [n=jao@148.Red-83-39-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:41 the social concensus of the way lisp systems are provisioned pushes everything directly from the revision control system. 21:45:59 which is sort of a problem. 21:46:05 I'm just now trying to write my first weblocks app and I'm really trying to don't loose my sanity, and those screencast are helping me alot 21:46:17 saikat: ok...just read your post. Sooo....what I was going for was to rely on the view system to instantiate the object backing the form instead of me doing it explicitly - like dataform 21:46:27 Fade: I don't think it's a problem 21:46:40 rstandy: it is for our current distribution tools 21:46:50 we don't have tools to match this culture 21:46:55 Fade: it seems to me that today's distribuited revision control systems are very good dstribution tools 21:46:55 aye 21:47:13 my understand was that when dataform is submitted, the data isn't created yet either - so it calls update-object-view-from-request 21:47:23 rstandy: tell that to ASDF-install 21:47:23 if not, then how does data get created in dataform? 21:47:25 aggieben: in dataform though i believe you have to at least pass it the data class it needs to instantiate (take a look at how quickform works) 21:47:26 also 21:47:35 render-view does instantiate the class for you 21:47:45 you just have to take the return value and set it in the data slot 21:47:46 -!- testaoe2 [i=testaoe@77.79.144.57.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has left #lisp 21:47:51 for your widget 21:48:06 rstandy: if you think so, download clbuild and look at the source. 21:48:13 -!- kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 21:48:22 saikat: oh, ok. 21:48:25 Fade: why? Is it that bad? 21:48:27 it has dependencies on five or six rcs' 21:48:38 *mathrick* looks forward to re-learning weblocks with the latest version :) 21:48:52 not much to re-learn mathrick =) 21:49:00 last time I did anything was before Slava stepped down 21:49:05 oh fair 21:49:09 then maybe some to re-learn 21:49:09 clbuild has coverage of maybe 250 systems. at any given time the network may be down for a host representing a node in the loosely spec'd dependency graph. 21:49:21 Fade: This could be resolved using only one dvcs, I that's the problem 21:49:28 Is there any whay to distinguish lower and upper case in Lisp ? Can I do it only on strings ? 21:49:35 -!- mrSpec[afk] is now known as mrSpec 21:49:37 saikat: it mostly means the old ways I remember are in many places slightly or significantly wrong 21:49:39 a proxy to upstream, apt-style, would be good. 21:49:44 saikat: Isn't there the whole new navigation thing? 21:49:45 well, better. 21:49:57 but I think the problem is that there is no simple way to replicate a developer's environment with lisp 21:50:00 yeah nevermind 21:50:01 mrSpec: your question is confused, please explain what you want to achieve 21:50:19 rlpowell: oh, so it landed finally? 21:50:21 I thinks something like buildout is needed for lispers 21:50:36 Jstick [n=e@c-76-19-197-119.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:42 saikat: dude. I've been staring at this for a long time, and I never noticed that render-view creates the object from the view 21:50:44 fare is working on a build system. 21:50:47 *aggieben* smacks his forehead 21:50:50 I have input data:" aX+b=Y " and lower case are parameter, upper are variable. 21:50:51 anyone mind helping me w/ a simple function? 21:50:56 did anyone look at providing real persistent URLs and bootstrapping sessions from them then? 21:51:00 aggieben: happens to us all =) 21:51:06 Jstick: yes, if you don't ask it 21:51:12 I have to distinguish parameters and variables 21:51:16 ..what ? 21:51:30 Jstick: don't ask to ask, ask 21:51:34 gotcha 21:51:43 mrSpec: are you aware of the equivalence of LET and LAMBDA? 21:51:47 the other issue with the rcs distribution method is that you end up with hundreds of moving parts. 21:51:49 i need to define a function that removes all adjacent items in a list 21:51:50 mrSpec: usually we do it by ?a and a 21:51:54 it can become sort of like building on sand. 21:51:57 like 1 1 2 3 -> 1 2 3 21:52:02 and i have it defined as 21:52:02 (defun remove-dup (l) 21:52:03 (if (=(car l) (car (cdr l))) 21:52:03 (cons (car l) (remove-dup (cdr l))) 21:52:03 (remove-dup (cdr l)))) 21:52:05 Fade: actually I'm slacking on IRC 21:52:07 Jstick: stop there 21:52:10 Jstick: don't paste in-channel 21:52:11 mathrick, ?a and a ? 21:52:12 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.162.151] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:52:14 use lisppaste 21:52:15 sorry! 21:52:17 apis can change underneath you at any time. 21:52:18 etc 21:52:19 lisppaste: url? 21:52:19 lisppaste: paste 21:52:21 Fare: :) 21:52:21 clhs remove-duplicates 21:52:22 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 21:52:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_dup.htm 21:52:23 Fade, if there are stable repositories that is not true 21:52:30 Jstick: your logic is confused. 21:52:40 mathrick: Probably still in -dev, but I believe so. 21:52:41 rstandy: my point is that there tend not to be. 21:52:50 mrSpec: no, variables are called ?a, ?b, constants are X, Y, Z 21:52:51 Fade: look at weblocks, there is a weblocks-stable darcs repo 21:52:52 pjb`, I am not sure if I understand your question, I mean that A is the same as a 21:52:58 Fade: that's why I prefer my linux distribution's package management system instead of asdf-install or clbuild 21:52:59 i see... 21:53:14 Fade: well if we consider the actual situation, you are absolutely right 21:53:18 mathrick, I have input file with equations 21:53:23 pkhuong: how so? 21:53:24 Jstick: what should happen with 1 1 1? You also don't have any base case. 21:53:29 i actually moved away from weblocks because veridian kept disappearing. 21:53:31 ah ok 21:53:34 haha good point 21:53:45 rlpowell: hmm, I hoped it'd reach stable by now 21:53:46 Fade: but I also think that a good build system could use dvcs for the better 21:53:56 of course 21:54:11 Fade: why care about veridian? There's really not much there that's useful. 21:54:12 mathrick, I can't edit the input data format 21:54:12 i will try and work through it w/ a base case 21:54:14 -!- Malbolgne [n=baal@h49n2fls303o885.telia.com] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 21:54:16 system packaging needs a proxy to upstream. 21:54:16 thanks 21:54:27 -!- cads [n=max@adsl-145-181-159.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:54:32 aggieben: my clbuild kept breaking. 21:54:39 mathrick: I'm not sure; might have. 21:54:47 I've been poking at the documentation lately myself. 21:54:50 mrSpec: don't use READ then 21:54:53 Fade: veridian? 21:54:53 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:59 Hello all. 21:55:03 hey nyef 21:55:04 heya nyef 21:55:20 mathrick, what should I use instead of READ ? 21:55:25 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:31 mrSpec: READ creates Lisp data structures. I doubt your pre-existing code conforms to Lisp rules 21:55:51 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:56:34 Fade: I think a good dvcs with stable branches of lisp code and a good build system which allow to specify versions in a configuration file would be great 21:56:51 mrSpec: READ-SEQUENCE or READ-LINE 21:56:52 it'd be a massive improvement, for sure. 21:57:01 probably READ-LINE will be more convenient for you 21:57:10 mathrick, ok thx, I'll check it 21:57:12 Fade: something that allow developers to exchange a text file with versions and packages infos and completely recreate a development environment 21:57:12 pkhuong: What's up with the patch for 16-bit alien values, I thought that was fixed already? 21:57:40 but I'm too lame to try to build something like that :-) 21:58:10 my mind now is blowing trying to work with weblocks 21:58:19 I had that. :) 21:58:24 nyef: doesn't seem so. nikodemus suggested a workaround (write wrappers in C), but I can still force the ``bug'' on 1.0.26 (x86-64) 21:58:39 mathrick, and then how can I parse string from READ-LINE ? 21:59:09 -!- hankhero [n=henrik@c213-89-194-181.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:11 Really? 21:59:15 mrSpec: By writing a parser. 21:59:31 Even with the integer :naturalize-gen method in src/compiler/x86-64/c-call.lisp? 21:59:32 ah, I should write my owne ? there is no in lisp ? 21:59:40 own* 21:59:54 what is the structure of the line you're reading? 21:59:57 mrSpec: No, CL does not come with a parser for every possible set of data. sorry. 22:00:13 mrSpec: your question is unbounded 22:00:38 it is something like: 5*X+10*Y + t = 6 22:00:40 jao [n=jao@148.Red-83-39-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:01 you'll have to write a parser. 22:01:03 mrSpec: does C come with a parser for those? Java? Python? 22:01:06 neither does CL 22:01:20 ok, got it 22:01:27 cl-yacc 22:01:40 minion: cl-yacc? 22:01:41 cl-yacc: CL-Yacc is a LALR(1) parser generator library for Common Lisp, somewhat like Zebu or LALR.cl. http://www.cliki.net/cl-yacc 22:01:43 Fade: ouch, it'll be easier to write one by hand 22:01:54 Fade: why bother? recursive descent and done 22:01:58 it seems there many weblockers here 22:02:04 just sayin' 22:02:22 what people do suggest for a web app that will go in production soon 22:02:32 rstandy: UCW 22:02:35 weblocks-stable or weblocks-dev? 22:02:38 LoL 22:02:40 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:03:00 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:03:02 drewc: why? 22:03:04 Fade: LMAO :P 22:03:24 :) 22:03:30 drewc: more stable? 22:03:31 ok, so I'll start writing parser. Thanks for info. 22:03:41 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 22:03:56 rstandy: easier to debug, more experience behind it, more stable, and i'm the maintainer :) 22:03:56 rstandy: drewc has been coding on UCW :P 22:04:19 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:29 cool! 22:04:33 clhs apply 22:04:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 22:04:53 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:05:27 theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 22:05:28 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.10.198] has joined #lisp 22:06:03 drewc: don't listen to drewc's wicked ways 22:06:07 err 22:06:10 *rstandy 22:06:25 mathrick: you just blew my stack! 22:06:29 UCW seems so cool also, but AFAICT UCW doesn't offer a persistent layer and an AJAX library right now 22:06:35 drewc: yay! 22:06:38 rstandy: i think it depends a lot on what kind of web app we are talking about. i've been very successfully using clisp and old cgis for the last 2-3 years without any issues at all, for example. paserve has been working nice for me too. 22:07:10 nyef: There's still a problem with unsigned types. I'm not sure if GCC also takes liberties on unsigned values, but it allows the user to very easily kill safety when declaring return types wrong. 22:07:21 Ah. 22:07:32 Still easily dealt with in the naturalize-gen method. 22:07:58 _8david [n=david@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:08:10 rstandy: nobody has ported over the ajax stuff yet, true.. and i don't use UCW for higher level interfaces ( i use lisp-on-lines for that) so widget libraries and the like will never be a part of UCW proper... they're contribs 22:08:21 Just change the alternative from alien to `(logand alien ,(1- (ash 1 (alien-type-bits type)))). 22:08:30 hypno: I need something which offer as much as possible out of the box, because I'm a newbie and starting something from scratch may require so much time 22:08:40 -!- _8david [n=david@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:08:46 no, the optimiser will yank that away. 22:08:55 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08:56 drewc: LoL is still a bit over my head 22:09:02 Really? Hrm... 22:09:11 drewc: now I remeber, you are the LoL developer :-) 22:09:22 as in, it's a cool tech and I can see why you like it, but it's also very inaccessible 22:09:26 rstandy: as for persistence, i don't think that belongs in UCW. I use my own o/r mapping, there are many great object dbs for lisp, so why bother having yet another NIH solution in UCW? 22:09:27 That's why I changed the type derivation function for %alien-funcall. 22:09:38 drewc: LoL seems very nice also, but I had to make a choice and weblocks seems more documented at least 22:10:02 drewc: well to say the truth I tried to download your video and the site was down 22:10:10 drewc: weblocks doesn't have a persistence per-se, it just has a minimal set of mappings from objects to underlying stores 22:10:14 Ah, I see. 22:10:16 rstandy: oh? 22:10:27 rstandy: that video is afaik not current anymore... 22:10:29 drewc: that's the way I made my really well thought choice :-) 22:10:31 an email would have been nice.. 22:10:48 oh .. i nuked the DNS for that server, right... 22:10:59 rstandy: I went through all the same gyrations before landing on Weblocks as well 22:11:08 p_l: there is a vid from just last year that is pretty current 22:11:17 rstandy: well, sure, but you've yet to say what it is you are doing. clearly, there is no need for 50 contribs if all you are gonna write is a trivial blogg. anyway, i think paserve is by far the easiest in general to get going and using. 22:11:25 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.66.203] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:11:30 LoL does need more docs. 22:11:34 Which reminds me, anyone ever try to build a custom type translator for some object in SB-ALIEN? 22:11:38 *drewc* is simply too busy writing real world web applications to write docs. 22:11:43 drewc: For a newbie like me, having a webframework that already deals with various persistence layers seems good 22:11:57 perhaps a LoL cookbook. 22:11:58 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:02 rstandy: there's is ROFL 22:12:05 so various people could contribute. 22:12:51 hypno: what I'm actually trying to do is a registration form to download some GPLed source code 22:13:01 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB!"] 22:13:13 hypno: but that's a silly webapp to learn the framework 22:13:16 hypno: paserve is really low-level. Writing anything not super-trivial ceases to be fun quickly 22:13:36 hypno: paserve is crap, for that matter. (well, acl-compat is really the culprit) 22:13:38 all of UCW, LoL, and Weblocks need more/better docs. 22:13:44 that's pretty old news, I think 22:13:49 aggieben: i'm sure patches are welcome. 22:14:02 -!- serfurj` [n=user@216-188-253-113.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:09 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 22:14:09 drewc: they are, but I don't have time to send them to every project :-) 22:14:10 p_l: what's ROFL? 22:14:13 serfurj` [n=user@216-188-253-113.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:26 anybody who has contacted me and expressed an interest in LoL has been given excellent hand holding, FWIW. 22:14:29 drewc: I'm working on things I think Weblocks needs. 22:14:34 that's true 22:14:48 unfortunately, you don't scale, drewc. ;) 22:14:52 drewc: Relational Objects For Lisp 22:14:54 mathrick: rofl is my o/r layer for postgresql 22:15:02 ah 22:15:05 s/drewc/mathrick 22:15:06 good name :) 22:15:11 postgresql being a oodb with a light relational layer ;) 22:15:21 :) 22:15:36 man I got a connection timed out from google??!?? 22:15:41 I installed smoke2 with apt-get [...] 22:15:49 It seems that I need more sleep 22:15:54 What distro are you on that ships smoke2? 22:16:31 hypno: I read this tutorial: http://web.telia.com/~u43518104/articles/lispweb.htm and got really impressed by the simplicity of webframeworkless approach 22:16:48 lichtblau: I'm not really sure if it was smoke2, but I'm on ubuntu. 22:16:55 hypno: but I'm too newbie to write anything by myself 22:16:56 Give me a second 22:17:03 Chronona1t [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:14 robewald [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:29 weblocks seems like that make standard features simple to obtain 22:17:42 (sorry for my english :-() 22:17:43 The-Kenny: smoke, not smoke2, probably. 22:17:56 there's another strong argument for weblocks: you never deal with HTML 22:18:14 that is a very, very, very important thing if your app is supposed to do anything serious 22:18:26 mathrick: well, I have to see if that's true, but I hope it is :-) 22:18:31 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:32 and you get JS-less fallbacks for free 22:18:35 mathrick: yep, I thought that was a plus as well 22:18:53 rstandy: you do a bit when you write widget, then forget it 22:18:55 mathrick: Yeah JS-less fallbacks are _really_ nice 22:18:57 not having to deal with HTML much and getting JS+noJSfallback for free are very nice. 22:19:03 lichtblau: Yeah, it looks like it is smoke1. I was confused because the package name is "libsmokeqt4-w" 22:19:05 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19:08 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 22:19:11 s/-w/2/ 22:19:16 weblocks still needs some extra smarts in how the JS works 22:19:23 since it's not scalable at all 22:19:28 drewc: has UCW changed much in the last 6 months? 22:19:31 mathrick: what to you mean? 22:19:39 I'm on debian unstable kde4/experimental and I have libsmokeqt4-2 and other libsmoke* libs 22:19:41 Can/does slime highlight when using emacs in console mode? 22:19:43 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19:53 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:19:55 aggieben: all the JS it does is just "ask the server for a new HTML piece" 22:19:59 aggieben: yes, it's been through a _major_ change. 22:20:15 that works nice if you have 50 clients, but falls apart when you hit 5000 22:20:32 mathrick: what should it do? 22:20:34 anyway I'm trying to understand how to manage a user form for which I want data to persists only after some conditions are satisfied 22:21:06 aggieben: do actual processing on the client-side as much as possible, and only ask when real data is needed 22:21:10 for I now what I obtained is a 100% CPU load when using elephant :-) 22:21:31 aggieben: rails used to do that with its .rjs, it was shown quickly to be a major performance bottleneck 22:21:33 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 22:21:59 mathrick: how is weblocks JS different than what you said? 22:22:04 of course, ruby is its own bottleneck :), but it's still an important point if you ever hit it big 22:22:12 i.e., what processing, and what data? 22:22:17 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:58 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:09 aggieben: for example, if it shows a popup, and then needs to hide it, it doesn't just set "display: none" from JS. The JS calls the server which sents it new HTML in which the popup is absent 22:23:39 mathrick: don't forget that .rjs was dependant on prototype executing sent code 22:23:41 on one hand, it's important for preserving the consistency of what server believes to be true about the session, and what the client did 22:24:03 p_l: yes, but that's not a bottleneck 22:24:04 mathrick: gotcha. Yep, I agree then. although, to be fair, that really has to do with how you render a widget, and Weblocks just doesn't have that many widgets yet, which I think is it's biggest weakness 22:24:55 aggieben: sure. But we need to work out a clear model of how to allow overriding this default dumb JS (which is great because it's free) with something smarter, AND keep the models on the both sides consistent 22:25:05 aggieben: the major weakness I think is it's lack of a real manual 22:25:06 weblocks has a problem because it's stateful here 22:25:21 so anything that doesn't go through the server can wreak havoc 22:25:35 aggieben: with which people would start writing their own widgets and share them wi the community 22:25:41 rstandy: well, yes - but to anyone know already understands it, by and large, the problem is that there's not a large repository of already-built-and-tested widgets 22:25:45 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 22:25:45 wi=with 22:25:53 rstandy: point taken 22:26:33 mathrick: hmm. how would "the models on both sides" become inconsistent? 22:26:34 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:26:48 mathrick: just fyi, I'm trying to think through this with you, I'm not being a jackass 22:26:56 aggieben: that would be cool, sure 22:27:01 aggieben: sure, I get this 22:27:19 aggieben: do you know how weblocks models the interaction with the client? 22:27:43 rstandy: the good news is I think robin is going to be working on docs, but he hasn't posted in a few days, so it's hard to know if he's following through or not 22:27:48 aggieben: the client executes some JS which changes state in a way the server doesn't know of. Some time later, completely unrecoverable stuff happens 22:27:49 -!- robewald_ [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:27:59 mathrick: I would say "yes", but I have no idea what language to couch it in 22:28:02 Can you have the client side accumulate the appropriate state transitions and tell the server when it next needs something from the server? 22:28:33 aggieben: okay. Then let's say you show a popup. The server now remember the popup is shown 22:28:44 (Basically buffer the information?) 22:29:00 nyef: sure, that's why I said "work out a solution" not "shoot ourselves" :) 22:29:38 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:46 aggieben: but on the client side you hide it, and ask for a new page. Now you have a problem, because the server still believes the popup to be shown, and will proceed appropriately, whereas the client no longer has it 22:30:01 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@63-134-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:30:12 with dumb JS it's not a problem, because each request is basically "I did X, please compute the new state" 22:30:37 the client doesn't need to know anything about how the server does it, and doesn't keep any state of its own, so there's nothing to diverge 22:30:44 mathrick: that doesn't make sense to me. The server doesn't keep track of UI elements, it just renders a list of dirty widgets. If your client UI ..... 22:30:55 ok, I think I understand. 22:31:03 aggieben: and how do you think dirty widgets work? 22:31:06 yeah, exactly 22:31:47 so, basically, you need a JS library for widget manipulation that stays in sync with the lisp backend 22:32:14 yeah 22:32:20 and a protocol to do that 22:33:16 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:49 well, hmm. can the number of hunchentoot threads be adjusted? 22:34:03 clhs defpackage 22:34:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 22:34:24 if all else fails, one could just launch as many lisp processes as you need and hide them behind a simple load-balancer like cherokee 22:34:31 or write one 22:34:42 aggieben: i've used pound to do so with success 22:34:53 drewc: pound? 22:35:04 aggieben: a reverse proxy with 'sticky session' support. 22:35:09 ah 22:35:25 and this was with UCW, of course. 22:35:35 but the same idea should work in weblocks. 22:36:27 X-Scale2 [i=email@2002:59b4:c93c:0:0:0:59b4:c93c] has joined #lisp 22:37:03 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-211.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:37:25 well, it's really frustrating to ask dumb questions when lisp hackers are talking, but... has someone used cl-prevalence in prduction? 22:37:40 -!- rey_ [i=pdewacht@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:40 -!- PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:46 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:37:46 reading through the web it seems like only elephant has reached stability 22:38:07 postmodern is nice. 22:38:20 I just don't use persistence :-) 22:38:23 although I guess not strictly an orm. 22:39:13 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:39:15 drewc: how did you marry that with statefulness? 22:39:38 aggieben: so you use RDBMS? 22:39:44 Fade: cl-perec is an ORM built on postmodern 22:39:50 (amongst other things) 22:40:15 mathrick: Sticky sessions means that a given client always gets the same server, so statefullness tracking isn't any more complex than it was in the first place. 22:40:31 mathrick: interesting, do you know if is that stable for production? 22:40:40 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F4C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:40:43 rstandy: I was just kidding. I would choose elephant for anything real but self-contained, postgres for something integrated with non-lisp pieces, and prevalence for prototyping 22:40:44 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F4C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:45 ah, missed the sticky sessions 22:41:06 ... Is there a command for "save a copy as" in emacs? 22:41:19 nyef: other than C-x C-w? 22:41:20 C-x w 22:41:24 Thanks. 22:41:30 rstandy: you can always just write a redo-log file with sexps. or bknr is another option. 22:41:45 rstandy: depends on how you see it. It's used in production apps, albeit by it authors. I intend to write another production app which uses perec :) 22:41:47 mathrick: thanks for the pointer 22:41:52 aggieben: thanks for sharing your opinions :-) 22:42:13 Fade: you're welcome. But be warned that it's not trivial to get running 22:42:15 man too many options for a newbie :-) 22:42:43 i've been using elephant lately 22:42:52 -!- aggieben is now known as aggieben_ 22:43:48 Fade: I remember looking into elephant, but there was something that made it a no-go from the start for me 22:43:51 can't remember what, tho 22:43:55 one nice thing about weblocks is also that you can switch between elephant, cl-prevalence and clsql with very little effort 22:44:52 what do you think about postmodern? 22:45:13 Okay, feedback request time again. is a bit rough, but I -think- it works. 22:45:16 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-133-68.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:45:19 Err... 22:45:34 Forgot to sync things up. Should be there now. 22:45:41 nyef: perms 22:45:54 ouch, didn't read the backlog 22:45:58 nevermind 22:46:04 Damn. 22:46:50 speaking of web frameworks, has anyone tried core-server? 22:46:59 nyef: went from 403 to 404 :) 22:47:00 and coretal, the cms based on it? 22:47:06 mathrick: it's a bit odd, but generally quite nice. 22:47:09 Okay, that should fix it. 22:47:10 oh, now 22:47:48 I was scared by it's abstractions based on streams 22:47:54 rstandy: no, what's that? 22:47:56 but it seemed nice too 22:48:05 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:48:21 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:48:23 mathrick: it's a web framework that was based on UCW initially 22:48:29 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:48:48 mathrick: then abandoned the object oriented approach 22:49:04 mathrick: http://www.cl-user.net/asp/ulNe2/sdataQkv5Wy7kSsQ1DQ3Ozy8X8yBX8yBXnMq=/sdataQu3F$sSHnB== 22:49:53 mathrick: sorry for the bad link, here is the correct one: http://labs.core.gen.tr/#index 22:50:50 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 22:51:13 nyef: any idea how to add a new primitive type and primitive object for double-quads (sse regs)? 22:51:32 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has quit [No route to host] 22:51:44 -!- Qsquare [n=user@208.75.91.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:51:46 pkhuong: At the SB-ALIEN level or at the IR2 level? 22:51:49 greg` [n=greg@ip72-207-244-108.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:54 IR2/type system 22:52:08 drewc: have you seen this coreserver project before? 22:52:34 rstandy: interesting 22:52:50 IR2, I have a few ideas. Type system, that's something that I haven't entirely figured out yet. 22:53:17 mathrick: I agree, let me know if you try it :-) 22:53:23 One thing I'd like to see, though, is the resurrection of long-floats for x86. 22:53:50 I'm thinking of just hijacking complex floats to pack them in a single SSE reg. Might actually be simpler than adding a new type. 22:54:17 moop_ [n=user@hoasnet-fe35dd00-144.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 22:54:18 rstandy: at this moment I'm rather convinced I'll go with weblocks, but we'll see 22:54:34 Umm... What? 22:54:58 mogunus [n=marco@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:49 Yup. x86-64 does like every other port and represent complex floats with pairs of registers. 22:55:52 -!- X-Scale2 [i=email@2002:59b4:c93c:0:0:0:59b4:c93c] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:56:14 well, dear lispers, thanks for these very nice conversations, I'm going to sleep, maybe Morpheus will suggest me the one true web framework+AI which write the web app by himself when I'm sleeping 22:56:28 Oh, right. 22:56:32 good night 22:57:00 rstandy: Sleep well. 22:57:13 night 22:57:37 night 22:59:09 is there a sane way to deal with defpackage and changing export lists? require and C-c C-k both fail because a package "also exports the following symbols: foo".. 22:59:11 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:59:13 The-Kenny: I can't reproduce that on Debian. Can you send me a stacktrace for the failure on Ubuntu if you get around to it? 22:59:18 pkhuong: What -is- a double-quad, in type system terms? 23:00:15 lichtblau: I think the problem is a wrong smoke version. But yes, I can send ou a stacktrace. 23:00:18 The-Kenny: I'd need to know which array the failing access goes to, *class-table*, *method-table*, *type-table*? 23:00:30 nyef: I wouldn't put that in the number hierarchy and just use them as opaque values. 23:01:34 moop_: just ACCEPT it 23:01:38 I think I've managed to add a primitive type, but I can't seem to create an actual type for that ptype. 23:02:17 I'm going afk for a while, but please send pointers or ideas (: 23:02:23 lichtblau: Give me a few minutes. 23:02:25 Is it essentially a structure? 23:02:43 The-Kenny: take your time, I probably won't be online until sunday or so 23:02:56 i defined a new primitive object and a new widetag. Wasn't sure I wanted to replicate the SAP hack. 23:03:12 (That is, something with slots for values, like a complex, but without the relationship with the numeric types that complexes have?) 23:03:13 Might be simpler to do that, I guess. I need a word of padding for alignment. 23:03:15 SAP hack? 23:03:24 SAPs *are* structures. 23:03:25 -!- waterh [n=waterh@114.143.35.72] has quit ["The Bersirc are coming! The Bersirc are coming! [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]"] 23:03:31 Ah. 23:03:55 Really? I thought they had their own widetag? 23:04:00 Or is that the SAP hack? 23:04:49 The-Kenny pasted "commonqt stacktrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77371 23:05:40 lisppaste: There is your stacktrace. I've REQUIRED qt and then qt-tutorial and then executed (qt-tutorial-9:main) 23:05:48 (It's the same error for all tutorials) 23:06:15 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:08:04 Oh. lisppaste wasn't the user I meant ;) lichtblau, the paste is for you. 23:08:12 _8david [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:09:26 <_8david> The-Kenny: thanks 23:09:51 a-s [n=user@92.80.66.203] has joined #lisp 23:09:54 No problem 23:10:14 Beket [n=stathis@ppp9-20.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:13:12 -!- jfactor [n=john@c-71-230-33-184.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:53 today i went into a perl channel a little bit, just to talk to someone, and it happened to come up that I want to learn lisp as my first language. 23:15:58 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host66-178-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 23:16:00 They have this attitude over there that is not good. 23:16:41 they tried to convince me that lisp is defunct. I told them, that's pretty ridiculous. 23:16:43 don't take anything said in #perl about anything other than perl seriously. 23:17:16 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:35 but if you're interested in lisp, you had better get used to being on the outside of the language party. :) 23:17:39 "Why don't you tell them that God is dead while you're at it?" 23:17:48 *Fade* laughs 23:18:24 Fade: I think that all that is needed is an influx of lisp interest, and some interesting reason to play with lisp, and lisp of some sort will become more prominent 23:18:48 lisp is one of the most prominent technologies in my business. 23:18:55 gusnoo [n=nonamme@h-67-101-29-191.nycmny83.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:05 but it really doesn't bother me that not too many people know anything about it. 23:19:24 i guess in some ways that makes it more prestigious. 23:19:45 well, it's a preselector for the people who gravitate to this channel, ultimately 23:19:54 i guess i'm a snob. 23:20:49 I need to get learning it then. 23:20:55 Hi all. What sort of construct should I use with the new hunchentoot api to set up an "administer server?" 23:20:56 i'm going to start reading that book now. 23:21:16 I used to use: (push (hunchentoot:create-prefix-dispatcher "/myblog" 'myblog) (server-dispatch-table sec-server)) 23:21:34 But I can't find per-acceptor dispatch tables in the new hunchentoot? 23:22:01 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:22:02 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:13 Pegazus [n=awefawe@201.253.217.14] has joined #lisp 23:24:23 pkhuong: Looks like once you create the heap object layout via define-primitive-object in compiler/generic/objdef.lisp, it is sufficient to define the type via a !def-primitive-type in compiler/generic/primtype.lisp (which, honestly, raises some red flags with the leading-! name, as IIRC that means it's not something that can be done to a running system). 23:25:34 pkhuong: The !def-primitive-type has a list of suitable registers to pack into, and you define your MOVE VOPs to do the conversion, just like SAPs do, including setting up an SC if you need it. 23:27:46 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:35:59 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250007.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:37:25 fufie__ [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:53 -!- fufie_ [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:36 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:38:48 c|mell [n=cmell@x250021.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:40:17 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.10.198] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:40:23 pax__ [n=pax@d212-152-29-81.cust.tele2.ch] has joined #lisp 23:40:28 -!- moop_ [n=user@hoasnet-fe35dd00-144.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit ["Client exiting"] 23:41:21 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:39 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 23:44:57 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:45:18 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:53 pkhuong: On the sign-extend-alien thing, I'd stick with an explicit sign-extend VOP just because it's a common enough operation that the compiler can easily generate whatever native code instruction does the job. 23:46:05 Does lead me to wonder about C bitfields, though. 23:50:37 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.220.189] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:51:15 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@222.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:51:46 -!- mogunus [n=marco@wsip-70-184-14-138.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:52:16 -!- pax__ [n=pax@d212-152-29-81.cust.tele2.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:11 nyef: but loses on type inference. 23:54:07 The alien thing? I didn't mean that the type-deriver for alien-funcall shouldn't be changed, just that the optimizations from using an explicit sign-extend VOP should be kept. 23:55:04 Or, since it's actually the most natural portable expression of the concept, perhaps it should be re-added (if it's not there already) as an optimization for that particular combination of logbitp / logand / logior. 23:55:21 nyef: !def-primitive-type doesn't create a type parsing method or anything like that, though, does it. 23:55:34 Umm... Probably not. 23:57:12 But then, I don't see that for system-area-pointer either. 23:57:14 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-135.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:59:27 So unless you were planning on doing fancy type-derivation on it, that should be enough, right?