00:00:13 so I'm guessing the problem is with how I told clbuild to get cl-sqlite 00:01:03 rstandy: ahh, there is info on the mailing list, right now: "- The latest elephant requires BDB 4.7 - The C compilation step can cause problems when run from within slime, doing an initial compile from the console typically fixes this. - Sometimes SBCL complains the compile failed due to package export or other issues but things are fine." 00:01:25 oh lol the tarball says cl-sqlite, but the asd file is called sqlite.asd 00:01:30 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 00:01:45 compiling now 00:02:35 running clbuild install elephant 00:02:44 ignotus: aha! Maybe that's my problem. I compiled through slime 00:02:51 I should get cl-tc done 00:03:03 rstandy: same here, we are on track:D 00:03:28 but 1st I have to eat something 00:03:39 *spacebat* slurps coffee 00:03:47 has anyone had a look at picolisp? 00:04:00 -!- meingbg [n=user@remote5.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:04:39 it seems interesting as a minimalist but still useful dialect 00:04:42 ignotus: I'll let you know if it'll work 00:05:09 rstandy: thanks 00:06:17 some of the interesting things, because there is no compilation, macros are just functions that redefine themselves 00:06:34 a function can operate on its own structure as it runs lol 00:07:24 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:36 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 00:08:13 meingbg [n=user@remote5.student.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 00:10:17 strings are symbols, just one numeric type, and the evaluation rule is modified to allow a function to accept unevaluated arguments 00:11:05 that last point is the gateway to special forms, 'if' and so on can be implemented as functions 00:11:20 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:12:00 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 00:12:05 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:14:08 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:14:09 -!- lemonade` [n=no@pool-72-75-92-89.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:14:30 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:14:37 my clbuild install of elephant went ok 00:14:44 lemonade` [n=no@pool-72-75-92-89.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:54 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 00:14:59 asdf loaded it fine, but I haven't tried using it 00:15:18 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-4db42e9c.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["leaving"] 00:15:21 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 00:15:35 spacebat: installation goes fine here too, it's loading that totally break things :-) 00:15:35 spacebat: (elephant:open-store '(:BDB "/tmp/4/")) (create the directory first) 00:16:11 I'm installing libdb4.7-dev just now 00:16:14 oh lol I see in my-config.sexp that I need to install BDB 4.5 00:16:45 gee, i get an Unhandled memory fault 00:17:20 spacebat: youll need 4.7 00:18:21 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:18:25 ok 00:18:51 damn, the bad thing when using emacs for everything is that when something screews up you loose all other activities :-) 00:18:55 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:19:15 rstandy: launch several emacs instances. 00:19:17 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-50-225.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has left #lisp 00:19:48 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:18 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:20:31 methinks rstandy uses emacs for irc 00:22:22 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-50-225.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 00:22:25 re 00:22:33 which irc client do you use? 00:22:35 vinc456 [n=user@unaffiliated/vinc456] has joined #lisp 00:22:48 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:23:07 I've got 4.7 installed, but I can't find this db_deadlock program 00:23:13 spacebat: an Emacs client, it's called ERC 00:23:17 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:17 minion: ERC 00:23:18 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``ERC''. 00:23:25 yup 00:23:27 doh 00:23:33 it's very nice 00:23:37 I'm sullied by a perl day job 00:23:40 so I use irssi 00:24:07 spacebat: try it, I think it's already bundled with Emacs 22 00:24:21 I'm using ERC Version 3.0 $Revision: 1.509 $ with XEmacs 21.4 (patch 21) "Educational Television" XEmacs Lucid! 00:24:38 so there is a line: (:berkeley-db-deadlock . "/usr/local/BerkeleyDB.4.5/bin/db_deadlock") 00:24:59 neither of the debs I installed have that binary, its not on my system 00:25:00 spacebat: apt-get install db4.7-util 00:25:05 ok 00:25:20 I'm using Circe version from CVS (2007-02-22 16:58:04) with GNU Emacs 22.2.1 (of 2008-11-09) 00:27:51 tried the open-store form and got 'A valid Berkeley DB version must be defined in my-config.sexp, got 4.7. Valid values are "4.5" and "4.6"' 00:27:57 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 00:28:05 ignotus: it's very ironic. Here is what elephant says to me now: 00:28:07 A valid Berkeley DB version must be defined in my-config.sexp, got 4.7. Valid values are "4.5" and "4.6" 00:28:07 00:28:31 what lead you to 4.7? 00:29:11 the recommendations in the elephant mailing list 00:29:14 ok 00:29:22 I'll try it with 4.6 00:29:30 ignotus just wrote the last version requires bdb 4.7 00:30:46 I'm really a newbie, just trying to figuring out what version of elphant I have installed :-) 00:30:47 -!- magnus_ [n=magnus@83.209.81.20] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:33:21 yeah it didn't like 4.6 00:33:37 11 nested errors so sbcl bailed 00:34:11 Qsquare [n=user@208.75.91.170] has joined #lisp 00:34:35 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 00:34:55 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-98-116.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:57 I'm trying with bdb 4.5 00:35:46 Help! 11 nested errors. SB-KERNEL:*MAXIMUM-ERROR-DEPTH* exceeded. 00:35:52 yeah 00:35:53 rstandy: hehe 00:35:54 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-155-74.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:39 could edit src/db-bdb/berkeley-db.lisp and change 4.6 to 4.7 :) 00:36:45 we are lycky tonight 00:37:00 but somehow I don't think we're running the latest and bleedingest 00:37:47 clbuild downloaded elephant from the darcs repo 00:37:59 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 00:38:11 but I don't know if the repo is the bleeding edge version 00:39:11 the source makes no mention of 4.7, and doesn't work with it 00:39:32 not that it works with any bdb apparently :) 00:41:25 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483F189.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:41:32 yeah, trying to force to 4.7 modifying src/db-bdb/berkeley-db.lisp didn't help here 00:41:48 -!- cipher [n=cipher@pool-71-184-152-81.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:40 wow, 4.7 causes an sbcl corruption 00:44:50 sorry, I mean 4.6 00:47:01 maybe it's better to download the versione indicated here: 00:47:03 http://common-lisp.net/project/elephant/downloads.html 00:48:20 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:25 lnostdal_ [i=lnostdal@216-177-194.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 00:50:05 pulled the latest build: 00:50:06 darcs get http://www.common-lisp.net/project/elephant/darcs/elephant-1.0 00:50:14 someone downloaded this way, and made it work (on the mailing list) 00:51:02 milanj- [n=milan@212.200.193.194] has joined #lisp 00:51:20 -!- milanj- [n=milan@212.200.193.194] has quit [Client Quit] 00:52:14 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:25 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.168.93] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:56:35 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:59:00 ignotus: with bdb 4.7? 00:59:12 I'm getting this error now: 00:59:13 Store controller init function not registered for data store BDB. 00:59:36 with elephant-1.0 from the above repository and libdb4.7 00:59:49 what a pity 01:00:26 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:01:02 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A63A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:02:41 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 01:04:42 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:04:56 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@216-177-194.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:37 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 01:06:01 now trying this: darcs get --tag=ELEPHANT-1-0-A2 http://www.common-lisp.net/project/elephant/darcs/elephant-1.0 01:08:12 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:09:28 -!- lemonade` [n=no@pool-72-75-92-89.washdc.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 01:09:50 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:22 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-159.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:22 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:31 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 01:19:19 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:19:41 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:19:46 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:21:26 <``Erik> *sigh* the gf is doing an intarweb radio show, http://troubleradio.net (she's on as redvsblue if you have requests). sorry for the spam 01:21:31 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:22:40 first lisp porn, then generic functions are doing radio shows... what a strange night 01:23:25 *rdd* scrolls up in search of the lisp porn 01:23:54 lol 01:25:12 *sigh* I can't stand how unresponsive my rig gets when I'm compiling glibc 01:25:28 this is exactly why I need a ocal-core 4.2GHz Power6 box 01:27:45 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has quit ["bye"] 01:28:21 voidengineer: maybe just more memory? 01:28:42 that would help. I only have 2 gigs 01:28:48 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:29:50 still free shows that I have 600M available 01:29:52 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 01:31:15 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-99-19-51-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:31:27 -!- schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:31:56 bbe [n=bbe@58.213.186.193] has joined #lisp 01:36:00 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:11 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 01:39:17 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB"] 01:41:15 no luck with elephants tonight for me 01:41:34 and before starting to see the pinky ones, I go to sleep 01:41:42 goodnight dear lispers 01:42:39 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:51 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 01:45:15 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-1caa9817754e2410] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:48:18 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:13 -!- The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087B536.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:30 hi, how would I pass two arguments like this. trying to give my lambda two arguments unsuccessfully with: (mapcar #'(lambda (x y) (print (+ x y))) '((1 2) (3 4) (5 6))) 01:58:20 -!- miravalh [n=opera@pc-22-168-160-190.cm.vtr.net] has left #lisp 01:59:04 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:59:59 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0FED.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:03:17 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 02:04:42 egn, mapcar can only pass on one argument at a time to the lambda, the current car 02:05:08 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.3.64] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:05:15 (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (print (+ (car x) (cadr x)))) '((1 2) (3 4) (5 6))) 02:05:24 spacebat: alright, thanks 02:05:42 cads [n=max@c-71-56-69-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:44 <_3b> or (mapcar (lambda (x y) ...) '(1 3 5) '(2 4 6)) 02:06:00 good point _3b 02:07:06 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-50-225.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:24 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:10:01 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:10:31 It must be done. 02:11:22 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:13:15 How can I use macroexpand properly so that I see what (defun) or other macros expand to? If I just do (macroexpand-1 'defun) it evaluates to DEFUN and that's it. 02:15:03 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:15:43 <_3b> expand a whole defun form, not just the symbol 02:15:56 _3b, yeah, I just figured that out, but thanks :-) 02:16:09 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-169-126.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:24 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-146-218.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:16:34 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-251-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 02:20:49 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:21:34 borism__ [n=boris@195-50-199-115-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 02:22:28 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:51 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:00 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.199.18] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:24:48 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-81-173-129-228.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:16 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:25:23 am I wrong to describe usocket as "the most complete portable implementation of bsd sockets for common lisp" in http://www.cliki.net/edit/BSD%20sockets? 02:26:00 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-251-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:19 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:28:16 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:30:11 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:33:27 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-125-224.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:17 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-146-218.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 02:34:48 kerc [n=riise@65.84-49-151.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 02:35:18 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 02:35:21 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-146-218.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:37:58 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:41:48 hm, why does this give me "#'PRINT is not of type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL)." -> (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (funcall (car x) (cadr x))) '((#'print 0) (#'print 1) (#'print 3))) 02:41:57 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 02:42:38 egn: (car '#'print). #' is just syntactic sugar; you still have to evaluate the form to get a function object. 02:46:34 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:48:42 hmm, ircbrowse.com is down; anyone know of another site offering searchable logs of #lisp? 02:50:25 <_3b> the logs on tunes.org are sort of searchable with google, ccl one probably are as well 02:50:50 good idea, ty 02:51:47 <_3b> inurl:ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs seems to work 02:54:30 pkhuong: k, I'm a little confused why I can (funcall 'print "foo") and can't (funcall (car '('print)) "foo") 02:56:04 -!- ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 02:56:25 egn: you don't need that quote in front of print 02:56:49 jso: ah 03:03:38 wmaikon [n=wmaikon@189.73.75.110] has joined #lisp 03:05:55 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:06:48 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192002.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:33 c|mell [n=cmell@x250002.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 03:14:47 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit ["[IRSSI]"] 03:16:22 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:21:59 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:23:40 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:31:38 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-219-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:04 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:43:42 Hi guys. I am using SLIME in Emacs. I need to load the montezuma package. I have a montezuma.asd file. How to load it from the asd file? 03:44:35 -!- bbe [n=bbe@58.213.186.193] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:45:20 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-30-72.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:10 -!- wmaikon [n=wmaikon@189.73.75.110] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:46:33 wmaikon [n=wmaikon@201-3-207-103.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:46:35 (pushnew "/path/to/dir_containing_asd_file" asdf:*central-registry*) needs to be in your .sbclrc (I'm assuming you're using sbcl) 03:46:43 and then just (require :montezuma) 03:48:34 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-33-76.phnx.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:48:44 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-33-76.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:17 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-151.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 03:51:26 voidengineer: I did the pushnew. Then require :montezuma. But montezuma could not be loaded. Also I do have SBCL, but I do not seem to have a .sbclrc file 03:52:05 TaoChing: you can do ,lo RET montezuma RET from the repl 03:52:05 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:52:29 provided the directory containing the .asd is in the registry as voidengineer mentioned 03:52:49 TaoChing: you'll probably want to make sure the name you ush on asdf:*central-registry* is a directory name (i.e. has a trailing /) 03:53:24 gigamonkey: It is a directory name but I left out the trailing '/'. Does that mater? 03:54:50 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Client Quit] 03:55:09 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:55:51 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:56:22 -!- tetha [n=hk@pD9EE4D1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:56:32 tetha [n=hk@pD9EE4776.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:04 bbe [n=bbe@121.229.104.217] has joined #lisp 03:57:21 -!- voidengineer [n=Stephen@75.139.179.172] has quit [] 03:57:29 jlf`: Your instruction seems to have worked. But there is a new error: component #:BABEL not found 03:58:07 I have downloaded babel, and there is a babel.asd there. What to do? 03:59:10 TaoChing: many people make a directory containing symlinks to all the needed .asd files and put that directory into the central-registry 03:59:33 oh, thats a good idea 04:00:03 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-151.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 04:01:01 envi^laptop [n=envi@219.241.46.188] has joined #lisp 04:01:21 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@219.241.46.188] has quit [Client Quit] 04:04:40 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [No route to host] 04:04:47 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.40.60] has joined #lisp 04:06:02 Now it is asking for component alexandria and alexandria does not have a public release yet 04:06:12 :( 04:14:47 envi^laptop [n=envi@219.241.46.188] has joined #lisp 04:15:03 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@219.241.46.188] has quit [Client Quit] 04:15:15 TaoChing: clbuild. 04:21:01 -!- vinc456 [n=user@unaffiliated/vinc456] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:23:39 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 04:28:43 good morning 04:29:43 I just type (dolist el (ensure-list listname) ... Is there a better way of doing this? 04:35:13 khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@68.237.103.91] has joined #lisp 04:35:52 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-205-125-240.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:41:17 voidengineer [n=Stephen@75.139.179.172] has joined #lisp 04:41:26 so I got stumpwm running ^_^ 04:41:49 envi^laptop [n=envi@219.241.46.188] has joined #lisp 04:42:36 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@219.241.46.188] has quit [Client Quit] 04:44:33 kami-: (defmacro do-list-designator ...), and figure out what you want to do on NIL/() 04:44:51 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:40 pkhuong: so, it is not considered bad style if written as I did? 04:46:12 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 04:46:33 Maybe there's a better way. It's impossible to tell without higher level information. 04:48:30 pkhuong: I want a function to accept either a single value or a list, and do that dolist/ensure-list thing on that parameter 04:49:32 I'd add a guard, (unless (listp list-designator) (setf list-designator (list list-designator))), at the beginning of the function. 04:50:11 pkhuong: and if i want to use this generally, create a macro for it, right? 04:50:23 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:51:00 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:54:14 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:45 -!- voidengineer [n=Stephen@75.139.179.172] has quit [] 04:59:16 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:01:10 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:03:56 voidengineer [n=Stephen@75.139.179.172] has joined #lisp 05:05:49 -!- bbe [n=bbe@121.229.104.217] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:10:18 -!- TaoChing [n=user@124.124.233.5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:12:22 man, the only thing cooler than this would be to have stumpwm running on a Lisp OS 05:17:46 stump is pretty sweet. 05:18:25 bbe [n=bbe@221.226.133.182] has joined #lisp 05:21:16 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:34:05 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:34:41 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:34:45 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:36:09 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:53 movitz running stumpwm and climacs 05:42:56 lol 05:44:30 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 05:47:13 to die for... or at least a lifetime hacking on :P 05:50:31 woopdeedoo [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:37 . 05:50:41 -!- woopdeedoo is now known as holycow 05:52:54 denyhost [n=qqq@unaffiliated/denyhost] has joined #lisp 05:53:05 -!- denyhost [n=qqq@unaffiliated/denyhost] has left #lisp 05:56:56 -!- lnostdal_ [i=lnostdal@216-177-194.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:00:20 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:01:04 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:01:47 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:06:57 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:21:23 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:32 -!- bbe [n=bbe@221.226.133.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:22:16 bbe [n=bbe@121.229.104.217] has joined #lisp 06:22:42 kami- pasted "function using macro using function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77003 06:23:21 I have tried different things, but cannot solve this problem. 06:23:35 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:24:06 does it need an eval-when? 06:24:33 <_3b> where is childlist initialized? 06:26:14 <_3b> or rather ,childlist 06:26:59 _3b: I try to push without initialising it 06:29:49 <_3b> is that saying what you want the code to do, or saying that you see the problem? 06:30:49 _3b: IIUC, this is what you pointed out with your question. And what solved my problem. Thank you! 06:31:54 <_3b> ok, just making sure :) 06:32:43 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 06:34:19 :) one small question left, though: 06:34:22 kami- annotated #77003 "why the warning?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77003#1 06:35:31 <_3b> you assigned it, but you never actually created the variable (the lisp created it for you just to be nice, but the spec doesn't require that so it warned you) 06:35:53 <_3b> you should (let ((,childlist nil)) ...) instead 06:36:04 <_3b> probably use that instead of the progn 06:36:51 <_3b> though depending on what you are testing, the warning might be the expected result 06:37:55 <_3b> though i guess in that case i'd do it differently anyway, so it should have a LET either way 06:40:05 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:14 _3b: thank you. I was confused by the fact that the warning read #:childlist0 and that didn't look like a gensymed symbol 06:43:30 <_3b> you can pass an argument to gensym to specify the part before the number, it is common to use the name of the var for that to make the macroexpansion easier to read 06:50:29 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:50:55 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:50:56 _3b: this is what alexandria's with-gensyms does. thanks. 06:52:42 dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-154-193.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:39 sohum [n=sohum@burgmann181.anu.edu.au] has joined #lisp 07:08:49 so, what's the difference between get and getf? 07:08:49 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-152-251.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:09:25 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-69-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:10:15 <_3b> GET looks at the property list of a specific symbol, getf looks at a specified property list? 07:10:45 ah. so what does the 'f' stand for? 07:11:35 fabulous 07:12:04 Are there any other popular utility packages other than arensi and cl-utilities? 07:12:07 I think arensi is kinda big 07:13:39 <_3b> minion: tell tomoyuki28jp about alexandria 07:13:40 tomoyuki28jp: look at alexandria: Alexandria is a collection of portable public domain utilities. http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 07:14:21 _3b: thanks, I will take a look at it. 07:15:17 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:16:24 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 07:19:17 aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 07:20:22 I've got a package that uses another package in it's entirety, like this: (defpackage #:mypackage (:use :other-package)) 07:20:49 is there any way to not import a particular symbol from :other-package without doing a million :import-froms? 07:22:32 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:23:06 <_3b> you can shadow it if the goal is to have a new symbol with the same name in the new package 07:23:32 ok, so if I have a function bound to symbol 'foo, then I can just :shadow :foo? 07:24:25 <_3b> that probably does what you want 07:24:51 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:25:28 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:26:36 (asdf-install:install :anaphora) gives me "GPG warns that the key id 0xNIL () is not fully trusted". Is that dangerous? 07:28:01 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:29:53 hmm. what I shadowed out was a class name, but when I tried to call (make-instance 'myclass ...) I get a lisp error stating: There is no class named MYPACKAGE::MYCLASS 07:31:22 jocke [n=jocke@witychu.khg.sgsnet.se] has joined #lisp 07:32:41 twitter1 [n=user@124.124.233.5] has joined #lisp 07:33:23 -!- twitter1 is now known as TaoChing 07:36:24 envi^laptop [n=envi@219.241.46.188] has joined #lisp 07:36:25 <_3b> aggieben: did you evaluate the defclass after recreating the package? 07:36:51 yes - I actually restarted my lisp image 07:38:03 <_3b> try evaluating the defclass form again, might have gotten an old .fasl or something 07:38:34 -!- dat [n=dthomp@c-76-115-154-193.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:40:28 alright...deleted all .fasls for my package, restart the image, reload the package.....and..... 07:40:51 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:41:08 got another error, but it's in another part of my app. 07:41:10 thanks 07:44:48 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-238-190.oke2-bras6.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 07:48:45 when writing a macro-writing macro, how can I make a verbatim ,designator (unquoted with comma) appear in the output? 07:49:38 I've tried different numbers of backquotes but that doesn't seem to work 07:49:50 kami-: When writting the macro, you cannot. But when writting a printer you may. 07:50:18 pjb: can you point me to some info on that? 07:50:41 kami-: It's up to the implementation to expand or not the coma to something implementation dependant, and it's up to the implementation to print this implementation dependant thing in an implementation dependant way. 07:50:42 <_3b> ,',designator ? 07:52:49 In clisp, '`,x is evaluated to something that prints as `,X 07:53:42 kami-: actually, the answer is that you shouldn't care how `, prints. 07:59:18 oops. why didn't lisppaste paste to this channel? anyway: http://paste.lisp.org/display/77005 08:00:49 kami-: you may encapsulate `, inside `, but it's easier to use `, only in the outer level, and use normal list building operators inside. 08:01:01 Let's see if in your case we can write easily ``,, 08:02:15 ``,, generates (LET ((ROLES-LIST)) instead of (let ((,roles-list)) 08:04:24 http://paste.lisp.org/display/77005#1 08:05:20 pjb: aaah. I understand. Thank you. 08:05:39 But notice that the macroexpansion doesn't contain any coma: http://paste.lisp.org/display/77005#2 08:05:57 Hence the importance of finding the right questions. 08:06:43 pjb: it's difficult to find the right question, if one knows so little about such a powerful tool. :) 08:07:02 kami-: also you did put the the ` too inside the subexpansion. If you don't (back)quote the LET it won't be expanded. 08:09:12 <_3b> would it be bad style to skip the with-unique-names in that example, since nothing from the caller ends up inside the scope of the let? 08:10:50 _3b: you mean I could gensym directly? without w-u-n ? 08:11:12 <_3b> actually, i guess the first question is whether that is what the actual macros look like or if it is a simplified example 08:11:34 <_3b> since now that i look again, the args aren't used at all :) 08:12:47 _3b: yes, simplified, because I wanted to do it step by step and check the expansion. 08:13:20 <_3b> ok, don't worry about my question then, it probably doesn't apply to your code anyway 08:14:52 _3b: ok. 08:16:23 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:19:45 good morning, people! 08:20:35 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:21:20 good morning, tic 08:21:54 vtz [n=vtzankov@router2-border.mreja.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:47 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 08:23:02 Man, I am way over my head. Following a bug from Tinaa into cl-containers. 08:23:31 that's how I feel 99% of the time 08:24:21 lichtblau [n=user@pD9542BCE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:24:22 Heh. 08:24:42 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:27:50 man I gotta get me a real kbd 08:28:02 I'm thinking about getting that das keyboard 08:28:31 voidengineer: the daskeyboard III is great! 08:28:36 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:28:45 really? 08:28:58 does it feel like the old school mechanicals? 08:29:00 *_3b* likes the new model-m 08:29:13 voidengineer: definitely. 08:29:27 + 08:29:28 and it can handle the abuse? I'm pretty heavy on kbds 08:29:57 Yes, it looks strong enough. 08:30:06 *guaqua* vouches for kinesis freestyle 08:30:18 guaqua, is it mechanical? 08:30:31 !log 08:30:33 ~log 08:30:37 voidengineer: i guess not 08:30:45 minion: log? 08:30:46 log: logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 08:30:57 but it's in 2 separate parts, easier on my wrists 08:31:02 <_3b> black keys on the das keyboard look a bit nicer than the grey keys on black for my model m though 08:31:06 hmm looks alright, but not for me 08:31:14 How do you get access to built-in classes? 08:31:33 (find-class 'integer) 08:31:34 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:31:40 no need to use as much force cos of the excellent wrist rests 08:31:50 pjb: Thanks. 08:31:53 or - results in needing to use less force 08:33:42 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:37:35 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 08:40:33 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:42:58 -!- jocke [n=jocke@witychu.khg.sgsnet.se] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:43:18 jocke_ [n=jocke@witychu.khg.sgsnet.se] has joined #lisp 08:43:46 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-152-251.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:47:19 _3b, I can really recommend the DKIII 08:47:35 *tic* loves it all day long. 08:47:41 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 08:47:50 <_3b> tic: yeah, i'd have probably gotten that if it wasn't more expensive than the model m 08:48:19 _3b, if the model m is available, I guess it's a matter of noise preference and price. 08:49:18 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp440.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 08:49:28 <_3b> yeah, $70 or so for model M, and i liked the model M i had before 08:49:50 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@219.241.46.188] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:50:16 Cool, didn't know you could get them. But DKIII is more 31337 08:50:27 and really, isn't that all that matters? 08:50:43 <_3b> model M is oldskool elite :p 08:51:16 <_3b> but yeah, dk3 looks nice too 08:51:33 it only looks like they sell one model 08:51:53 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250002.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:51:56 <_3b> www.pckeyboard.com is the place that makes/sells model M 08:52:22 voidengineer: there's the ultimate, and the professionnal. 08:52:48 pjb aren't they the same? 08:52:57 ultimate sans caps. 08:52:58 The professionnal has the "baby letters" inscribed. 08:53:11 <_3b> http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net//en104bl.html i think is what i have, black+gray/usb 08:53:26 voidengineer: http://www.daskeyboard.com/ 08:53:37 woa that's old skool 08:53:52 _3b's link that is 08:53:52 <_3b> or you could get the APL version just to confuse people :) 08:54:18 I gotta say guys, I'm loving stumpwm 08:54:37 that's why I need a new kbd 08:54:38 I'm the only one person I know of using this specific keymap, so it doesn't really matter if I have keycaps or not on my keyboard. 08:55:00 I'd like a keyboard with a extra key in front of the left part of the space key. 08:55:41 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:57:02 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-193.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 08:59:12 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has left #lisp 09:00:50 oh Model M as in IBM model M 09:01:05 <_3b> yeah 09:01:14 those were great 09:01:20 <_3b> still are :) 09:01:25 that's the kbd I wish I had of kept 09:04:47 -!- totzeit [n=user@dsl102.zipcon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:06:59 <_3b> in (values foo bar), does CL require foo to be evaluated before bar? 09:07:43 yes 09:07:49 3b: CL uses left-to-right evaluation order. 09:08:48 <_3b> ok, that's what i thought 09:09:34 c|mell [n=cmell@x250042.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 09:11:42 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:18:39 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 09:18:48 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 09:21:49 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-32-95.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 09:24:14 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 09:25:39 -!- bbe [n=bbe@121.229.104.217] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:27:02 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 09:29:52 sweemeng [n=sweemeng@8.60.50.60.cbj05-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 09:30:02 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:30:11 chpln [n=chpln@ppp121-45-47-44.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:25 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 09:33:13 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-099-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:50 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:42:51 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 09:43:09 _3b: notice that VALUES is a function. Exceptions to left-to-roght evaluation order may only occur with macros or special operators. 09:43:30 <_3b> pjb: yeah, i was thinking it was a special operator for some reason 09:43:52 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:44:12 _3b: lisp implementations are free to opencode any CL function, so it may not be called often in compiled code. 09:44:16 <_3b> and couldn't remember 100% if left-to-right was specified for functions 09:44:30 milanj [n=milan@212.200.193.194] has joined #lisp 09:44:50 This is a great feature for code combination and macro writting. 09:45:00 <_3b> it should get the same results even if open coded though, right? 09:45:18 Indeed. 09:45:26 open coded = inline 09:45:30 rozzo [n=rozzo@ppp-46-49.20-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 09:45:36 in picolisp, if instead of an argument list, you supply a symbol, then in the body of the function the symbol evaluates to the arguments, unevaluated 09:45:38 :O 09:45:47 hello! 09:46:13 ie its an escape from the evaluation rule, for writing your own special forms, that aren't macros 09:46:26 i'm newbye of lisp, where i can learn the base of lisp? 09:46:32 <_3b> spacebat: sounds interesting 09:46:53 and i can compile program with gui for linux or windows? 09:46:54 spacebat: "symbol evaluates to the arguments, unevaluated"? 09:47:13 rozzo: yes. 09:47:16 minion: tell rozzo about pcl 09:47:17 rozzo: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 09:47:30 tcr, tricky to say... its a way of telling the interpreter not to evaluate the arguments to this function 09:47:59 anyone have a project to show to me? 09:48:15 rozzo: climacs 09:48:17 spacebat: Ah you were talking about the definition. 09:48:28 so (de foo X X) (foo (+ 1 2) (* 3 4)) -> ((+ 1 2) (* 3 4)) 09:49:22 (de foo X ...) <=> (defmacro foo (&whole W) `((lambda (X) ...) ',(cdr W))) 09:49:34 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 09:49:37 g'day 09:49:55 yes, except there is no compile time, so no macros, just functions 09:50:12 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:50:13 danlei`` [n=user@pD9E2F032.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:32 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 09:50:37 functions that can redefine themselves or operate on their own structures while running, if necessary 09:50:53 spacebat: Sure another advantage is that it's more space efficient than macros. 09:51:25 benny [n=benny@i577A041A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:51:30 I've been reading about picolisp lately and these ideas are buzzing around my head 09:51:47 josemanuel [n=josemanu@65.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:51:49 but the user base is tiny, and there is so much CL I have to yet to learn :) 09:52:02 It's only practical because it's interpreter-only. 09:52:07 yes 10:00:19 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 10:02:29 bzzzzzzz 10:03:04 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:03:49 -!- rozzo [n=rozzo@ppp-46-49.20-151.libero.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 10:04:08 hello 10:05:30 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2F39B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:06:06 *JuanDaugherty* was buzzing around in your collective head. 10:08:34 *swat* 10:11:25 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:13:05 jewel [n=jewel@iburst-41-213-12-201.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:14:37 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:15:14 [[mark]] [n=mark@unaffiliated/mark/x-957811] has joined #lisp 10:21:57 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 10:24:02 PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:25:42 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:26:50 -!- ffx` 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12:29:12 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:30:51 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 12:36:17 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:06 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:09 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:45 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:12 bbe [n=bbe@121.229.105.91] has joined #lisp 12:42:31 good 'day there 12:42:49 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:27 day 12:46:39 is day way off? 12:46:53 it's nearing 0600 here in california 12:47:26 sounds like late morning to me. 12:47:50 just pass noon for me :D 12:48:01 i thought 'day (note the quote) would be right for some or most :) 12:48:07 p_l where are you? 12:48:13 isismelting: UK 12:48:38 ah wonderful, i have visited & found it lovely if expensive 12:48:56 *p_l* considers moving to norway 12:49:16 *isismelting* wonders is p_l is a dj 12:49:24 *is=if 12:49:35 UK moves too far in the direction that made me put USA on "don't go" list 12:49:44 isismelting: student :) 12:50:33 student of? 12:50:42 CS&AI 12:50:55 wonderful - where? 12:51:18 The University of Aberdeen (north-east Scotland) 12:51:52 how are the cs & ai programs there 12:52:19 dys [n=andreas@p5B315DC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:53 isismelting: the AI part is interesting, the CS part not so much... at least in first year 12:53:36 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087DC45.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 12:53:44 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087DC45.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:24 too much Java 12:54:24 p_l: concerning cs, in what language do they keep you mostly? 12:54:28 ah, yeah 13:01:06 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:16 wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:21 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-1-143.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:09:52 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:06 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 13:15:27 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:15:39 photon_ [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 13:16:36 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:16:52 -!- photon_ is now known as photon 13:18:02 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:14 karayan [n=saura@59.92.39.124] has joined #lisp 13:25:51 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 13:26:15 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 13:27:27 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-87-237.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:47 -!- karayan [n=saura@59.92.39.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:31:54 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:57 bangtree [n=user@12.232.106.26] has joined #lisp 13:36:31 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 13:37:01 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:06 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:38:59 LostMonarch [n=roby@host66-178-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:40:33 antgreen [n=green@CPE001310a5e799-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:51 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:47:03 -!- MrSpec_ is now known as mrSpec 13:49:24 jewel [n=jewel@iburst-41-213-12-201.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:49:38 envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:49:47 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:54:43 dat [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:01 segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1E6D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:08 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 13:57:12 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1FAA5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:58:00 -!- segv__ is now known as segv 13:59:06 -!- bangtree [n=user@12.232.106.26] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:52 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:27 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:07:56 -!- chpln [n=chpln@ppp121-45-47-44.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:08:15 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:26 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-156-117.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:10:31 -!- dat [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:10:48 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host12.190-227-32.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:17:08 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:17:22 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:18:37 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:59 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:20:16 ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 14:20:26 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:37 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:24:23 josemanuel [n=josemanu@165.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:25:22 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:50 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 14:31:21 can I loop over a list assigning the first two elements of the list to two loop variables? 14:34:48 kami-: (loop for (first second) on list by #'cddr ...) 14:36:21 pkhuong: thanks. 14:43:59 p_l, norway's nice. sweden's also nice. 14:44:23 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:44:57 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 14:45:23 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:42 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 14:50:15 How can I get the _most_verbose__ hash table test function in a list of candidates? (Verbose in sense that EQUALP is more verbose than EQL.) 14:51:46 GENHASH, with the test function (lambda (x y) t) and the hash function (constantly 0). 14:51:57 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D4AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:27 GENHASH? 14:53:58 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:04 G'morning all. 14:55:11 hi nyef 14:55:50 hello 14:55:58 vy: (defun least-specific-predicate (predicates) (car (remove-if-not (lambda (x) (find x predicates)) '(equalp equal eql eq)))) 14:58:11 fe[nl]ix: I was thinking about a `SORT' derivative of it. But that's nice too. (Shouldn't it be called `MOST-SPECIFIC-PREDICATE'?) 14:59:11 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:59:16 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:12 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:07:19 crod [n=cmell@x250044.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:07:38 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:07:45 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250042.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:53 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:41 manuel__ [n=manuel@29.76.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:01 postamar [n=postamar@206-248-170-157.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:10 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:19:33 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:46 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.193.194] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:21:11 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:21:31 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 15:22:44 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:24:47 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:25:00 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 15:25:26 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 15:26:23 -!- postamar [n=postamar@206-248-170-157.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:26:53 brandonz [n=brandon@96.238.16.143] has joined #lisp 15:27:36 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:28:03 postamar [n=postamar@206-248-170-157.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:29:05 I noticed that ABCL dropped their slogan, "The right of the people to keep and arm bears shall not be infringed!", from their website. 15:29:21 ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:29:58 which website 15:30:01 piso doesn't work as much on ABCL as a couple other people nowadays. 15:30:05 oh nm sorry 15:30:37 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:32:34 Dezlagrate [n=Dezlagra@unaffiliated/dezlagrate] has joined #lisp 15:32:37 clhs d-p-d 15:32:37 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for d-p-d. 15:32:40 -!- bbe [n=bbe@121.229.105.91] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:32:43 clhs *d-p-d* 15:32:43 *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS*: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_defaul.htm 15:33:49 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-151.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:33:50 hi 15:34:36 this channel is about just common lisp? 15:34:51 yes 15:35:20 no scheme, no other dialects? 15:35:46 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:35:47 #scheme, #emacs 15:36:00 thanks 15:36:05 -!- Dezlagrate [n=Dezlagra@unaffiliated/dezlagrate] has left #lisp 15:36:16 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@29.76.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has left #lisp 15:37:12 tombom: http://armedbear.org/abcl.html versus http://common-lisp.net/project/armedbear/ 15:37:16 -!- [[mark]] [n=mark@unaffiliated/mark/x-957811] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:38:05 is there anyone else out there that is interested in restructured text? i was poking around in the docutils/python parser. not pretty. 15:38:32 *tic* uses ReST for everything 15:40:34 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 15:41:52 antgreen1 [n=green@CPE001310a5e799-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:33 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #lisp 15:43:18 ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-126-11.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:32 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:47:34 -!- postamar [n=postamar@206-248-170-157.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:47:57 postamar [n=postamar@206-248-170-157.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:32 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE001310a5e799-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:49:06 -!- sweemeng [n=sweemeng@8.60.50.60.cbj05-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:47 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:54:21 milanj [n=milan@212.200.193.194] has joined #lisp 15:54:29 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 15:54:38 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:55:49 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:59:50 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:04:15 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:04:30 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:04:33 tic: did you take a look through the Python parser? Looks like a lot of Python OO machinery in there... 16:06:01 minion: PAIP 16:06:02 PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 16:06:35 baffg [n=htump@208-254-122-026.plateautel.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:18 -!- postamar [n=postamar@206-248-170-157.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:08:33 postamar [n=postamar@206-248-170-157.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:39 -!- postamar [n=postamar@206-248-170-157.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:09:08 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 16:09:48 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:11:06 brandonz, yup. kinda tricky to work with. 16:11:56 which python are you talking about? 16:14:17 dreish_ [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 16:14:28 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 16:19:32 hi, has anybody heard of a client for the Festival TTS server written in CL? 16:19:54 something like this: http://search.cpan.org/~djhd/Festival-Client-Async-0.0303/Async.pm 16:20:33 nope. 16:23:58 i didn't realise that festival was partly written in scheme. 16:29:44 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:36:15 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:37:09 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-10-91.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:57 edmond [n=vuong@222.253.93.97] has joined #lisp 16:39:14 ejs [n=eugen@161-114-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:00 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:55:06 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:01 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-13-251.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:37 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:55 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A967.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:12:31 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:11 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:17:01 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 17:17:52 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:01 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:18:16 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:29 Tordek [n=tordek@host12.190-227-32.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:29:48 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 17:30:15 -!- edmond [n=vuong@222.253.93.97] has left #lisp 17:38:09 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:20 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-165-91.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:31 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-169-15.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:51:18 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:48 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:55:25 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 17:57:11 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:58:37 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:32 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:03:17 matley [n=matley@83.225.224.74] has joined #lisp 18:05:40 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:05:57 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-180-221.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:05 -!- eno [n=eno@adsl-70-137-169-126.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:06:32 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:13 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-24-223-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:55 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 18:11:42 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 18:11:43 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 18:11:46 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:12:14 -!- konr [n=karkeej@201.82.139.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:12:29 dalton [n=lhugbj@189-19-112-203.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:12:41 Does anyone know any util package which have these functions? http://paste.lisp.org/display/77028 18:12:57 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-219-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:13:02 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:13:50 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:14:36 arnesi and cl-who have some string manipulation funcs, as I recall. 18:14:49 split-sequence 18:15:12 cl-ppcre 18:16:05 Malbolgne [n=baal@h49n2fls303o885.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:20 Hello! 18:16:45 Athas`` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:17:05 Can any type of object be used as keys in a hash table without collisions? even classes ? 18:17:13 Fade: split-sequence cannot split a sequence by a string, right? 18:17:27 That is, without horrible collisions 18:17:36 i've only ever used it to split by a single character. 18:17:52 but it'd be worth looking at. 18:18:05 stassats`: you mean use cl-ppcre to split or replace a string? 18:18:07 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:18:15 Malbolgne: yes, when you can ensure identity 18:18:17 tomoyuki28jp: yes 18:18:30 stassats`: I see, thanks. 18:19:04 it's easy when your objects can be identified by symbols. that should work everytime 18:19:27 Hun: And how do you ensure identity ? 18:19:30 equal objects are more complicated. i don't know of an elegant and portable way to do that 18:19:36 or by themselves using eq 18:19:40 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 18:19:41 you have that when (eq a b) => T 18:20:14 aka pointer identity 18:20:24 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:45 Hun: symbols are compared in the same way 18:20:46 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d8295c.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:03 stassats`: i know. i just wanted to give a good example for that 18:21:48 and that's only for interned symbols, not for make-symbol'd 18:22:36 (let ((symbol (make-symbol "FOO"))) (eq symbol symbol)) => T 18:23:34 When exactly do CL use references and when does it use values ? 18:24:05 Malbolgne: its values are references. 18:24:20 Malbolgne: CL always uses values, but some values are references. 18:24:50 And some values are only implemented by reference, but are immutable, and thus act as if they were values from a logical perspective. 18:25:43 Alternately, CL always passes by reference, but sometimes it passes a reference to a "fresh" copy. 18:26:58 Why do CL always intimidate me ? 18:28:19 I think the first explanation is the more understandable one 18:28:23 -!- fnrttc_b is now known as dan_b 18:28:29 CL is a language without a net. ;) 18:28:40 Fade: just a dot? 18:28:54 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:56 if an immutable value is implemented by reference and nobosdy's there to see it, the pope is shitting in the woods 18:29:06 i was thinking a more trad form of the metaphor, but that could (also . work) 18:29:13 It's just me and my ignorance :) 18:31:37 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:54 But back to the reference vs value thing: if I create something by (setf foo (make instance 'bar)) or so and puts the value of foo in a bunch of different places by function calls, do the stored copies still eq to eachother ? 18:32:15 Are they just references to the same thing ? 18:33:24 if foo is a special it'll be a reference to the same thing. 18:33:46 why do you care about this detail? 18:34:48 Malbolgne: it's the same value, and thus references to the same object. 18:34:54 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:30 Fade: I need to know if a symbol in my finite automaton framework still equals to itself if I reference it at many places, whatever the implementation of the symbol 18:38:45 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:16 thanks for the help guys! 18:40:47 as drew pointed out to me the other day: 18:40:50 (defvar foo 2) 18:41:03 (funcall (let ((foo 1)) (lambda () foo))) 18:41:11 probably doesn't return what you'd expect. 18:41:46 2 18:42:15 even though the lambda is established inside the lexical context of the let. 18:42:23 *stassats`* expected 2 18:42:26 sort of spooky action at a distance. 18:42:31 -!- jewel [n=jewel@iburst-41-213-12-201.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:42:37 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:42:53 Fade: that's why ** are used 18:42:55 obviously, I expected it to return 1. :) 18:43:01 Well, it is strange because (funcall (let ((bar 1)) (lambda () bar))) returns bar. 18:43:05 1 I mean. 18:43:07 stassats`: indeed 18:43:24 pjb: in clisp? 18:43:29 always earmuff your specials. 18:43:30 Everywhere. 18:43:47 Until you (defvar bar 2) 18:43:53 Then you get even stranger results! 18:44:08 If your function is compiled chances are that you still get 1. 18:44:09 if there's a special scope, cl prefers it. 18:44:17 But if it is interpreted chances are that now you get 2. 18:44:26 asn [n=fafa@gentoo/developer/asn] has joined #lisp 18:44:53 the thing is, it's actually not very likely to run into it(*), which makes it even more puzzling when you do. (*) speaking from elisp experience here 18:45:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:45:30 well, if you adhere to the earmuffs convention, it's a non-issue. 18:45:35 but it is sort of peculiar. 18:45:35 Well, in elisp all bindings are special and there's no closure, so there's no problem. 18:46:38 establishing a special with defvar should probably insert earmuffs even if they aren't there. 18:46:42 emit a warning. 18:47:10 this would cause consternation for the let over lambda dude, but I think the rest of us would live. :) 18:47:11 pjb: right 18:48:19 Fade: sbcl warns when you use ** on non-special variables 18:48:54 then my suggestion does make sense. 18:50:37 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Out of Memory: Killed process [9823] xchat."] 18:53:52 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:53:57 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:54:03 I think I'd have liked a special namespace (a la ISLISP) better than the earmuffs convention 18:54:31 drewc and fe[nl]lix are talking about building a lisp with that feature. 18:55:46 I like the idea of a special namespace. 18:55:47 well, how hard can it be to implement ISLISP on top of CL (famous last words... ;)) 18:56:06 well, I think you'd need an uninterning reader for a start. 18:56:22 doesn't pjb have a finished reader to use? 18:56:22 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-118-210.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:57:52 (shadow 'defvar) (defmacro defvar (name value &optional doc) (unless (and (char= #\* (aref (string name) 0)) (char= #\* (aref (string name) (1- (length (string name)))))) (warn "Special variable ~S declared without earmuffs" name)) `(cl:defvar ,name ,value ,@(when doc (list doc)))) 18:58:11 nice! 18:58:13 lol 18:58:16 ausente [n=lhugbj@189-19-112-203.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:58:42 -!- dalton [n=lhugbj@189-19-112-203.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:58:50 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 18:59:54 would break on zero length symbols 19:00:38 nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 19:01:01 stassats`: Trivial fix, and unlikely to be encountered in practice. 19:01:06 now i have to use || as a meaningful variable in my code. narf 19:01:57 nyef: i just like finding bugs 19:01:58 Note that this would warn on some of the variables defined in the spec. 19:02:11 although it throws a symbol package locked error. 19:02:44 did you shadow it? 19:02:48 yes 19:03:00 vy [n=user@88.231.232.38] has joined #lisp 19:03:04 What about parameters, though? 19:03:26 nyef: obviously its the same. 19:03:30 it's 19:03:55 Functionally, yes, but not in actual use. 19:04:35 Fade pasted "warning defvar" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77032 19:04:47 Since you have those parameters which are notionally constants, and thus defined with ++ instead of **-wrappers. (headphones? earplugs?) 19:07:26 I wonder whether (defparameter *value-of-+x+* ...) (define-symbol-macro +x+ (load-time-value *x*)) should become an idiom (or something similar with a cons for lexical globals). 19:14:50 That's an... interesting syntactic sugar. 19:14:53 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 19:15:46 Though I have considered doing the moral equivalent with setting up a boxed array in SBCL static space and having functions point to it directly from their literal vector. 19:22:17 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:37 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has joined #lisp 19:24:15 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25:08 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:25:14 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:02 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:28:17 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:56 Is there a way to see Emacs background jobs? For example, the newsticker RSS ticker should be running right now checking for news, but I don't know if it actually runs. Nothing is in the buffers. 19:31:05 asn: try #emacs 19:31:13 oops, wrong channel :) 19:31:44 asn: M-x list-processes RET 19:34:35 -!- baffg [n=htump@208-254-122-026.plateautel.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:34:45 emacs blocks on everything. 19:35:12 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:36:19 that's a big problem with it 19:38:08 ... okay, what the hell is M-x list-yahrzeit-dates 19:38:30 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:40:12 -!- ejs [n=eugen@161-114-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:40:29 Sounds like something to do with the ridiculously complete calendar/holiday functionality. 19:41:44 *asn* has actually used rot13-region more than a couple of times 19:43:08 rot13-rectangle, now that would be obscure. 19:43:38 mega1 [n=mega@3e70ccb2.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:44:48 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:48:50 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:49:02 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:49:25 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:49:38 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:51:56 _quasi [n=quasi@59.161.60.166] has joined #lisp 19:52:03 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:10 -!- asn [n=fafa@gentoo/developer/asn] has quit ["leaving"] 19:54:15 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:24 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host66-178-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 19:54:44 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:10 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:59:38 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:42 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:04:23 mije [n=mije@tal33-5-88-181-16-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:42 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:05:32 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:05:45 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 20:10:49 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:00 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:12:31 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:59 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:16:18 Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has joined #lisp 20:17:06 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.224.74] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:01 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:44 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:07 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 20:19:22 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@66.166.232.134] has joined #lisp 20:19:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 20:20:10 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:57 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-165-91.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Operation timed out] 20:21:06 What might I have meant by saying "stream equality"? I'm looking at "Hashing References" example in PLEAC and people use open file-pointers as hash table keys. Assuming such a thing is possible, what's the use of it? How one would compare the equality of two such references/streams? 20:21:26 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 20:22:43 vy: any lisp object has a hash value computed with SXHASH and can be compared with EQL. 20:23:21 How would you NOT be able to compare the equality of two such references/streams? 20:23:40 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:24:11 pjb: But what's the equality of streams? Consider I peeked a single byte from one of the streams, or consider another example where rest of the different streams are equal but the first byte. 20:24:51 BTW, (with-open-file (iu "/etc/passwd") (with-open-file (iv "/etc/passwd") (equalp iu iv))) returns NIL. 20:24:51 m4thias [n=m4thias_@ti0158a340-0107.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:25:14 vy: (with-input-from-string (inp "abcdef") (let ((x inp) (y inp)) (values (read-char x) (read-char y) (eql x y)))) What would you expect? 20:25:45 vy: indeed, in your example, there are two different streams. Notice I mentionned EQL, the object identity, not EQUAL or EQUALP. 20:26:18 Notice also that CLHS defines EQUAL and EQUALP to be EQL for all but some specific cases. 20:26:59 Yep, I read that KMP paper. 20:27:32 vy: you could define: (defun stream-on-same-file-p (x y) (equalp (pathname x) (pathname y))) (with-open-file (iu "/etc/passwd") (with-open-file (iv "/etc/passwd") (STREAM-ON-SAME-FILE-P iu iv))) --> T 20:28:00 vy: but then you would have to use (pathname stream) as key, and (make-hash-table :test (function equalp)) 20:28:45 I didn't know PATHNAME can take STREAM as input. 20:28:54 I see, thanks. 20:29:39 Yes, a stream is a path specifier. 20:30:38 Not all streams are valid path specifiers, however. 20:31:01 ... a stream associated with a file (denoting the pathname used to open the file; this may be, but is not required to be, the actual name of the file) ... 20:31:21 a yahrzeit date has something to do with jewish death memorials. 20:31:34 Wait, a stream can denote an LPN? 20:31:42 but when i discovered the feature in emacs, I couldn't actually dig up much info on it. 20:34:20 Why is `CHARACTER' a bad type specifier for sequences? 20:34:59 -!- Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has left #lisp 20:35:59 I'd expect (make-sequence 'character 10) to work. 20:36:00 (make-sequence '(vector character) 10) => " 20:36:12 Hrm... Got it. 20:36:22 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:36:23 Yeah, characters aren't sequences. Lists and vectors are. 20:37:44 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:38:29 I'm having some difficulty understanding the concept of returnvals from functions. Could somebody suggest readings? 20:38:50 minion: pcl? 20:38:52 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 20:39:59 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B50E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:40:16 -!- ausente [n=lhugbj@189-19-112-203.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["CyberScript - not made by microsoft"] 20:40:46 You're having trouble understanding the concept of a function returning a value? 20:42:55 -!- ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["ping pong poff"] 20:43:57 nyef: No, I'm used to declare it with return. 20:44:21 declare? 20:44:52 rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:28 m4thias: In Lisp everything is an expression. 20:46:17 m4thias: An expression denotes a value. So the value of the last expression in a function is what is the value of the function 20:46:47 Unless, of course, you use return-from, or set up a block nil and use return. 20:47:20 -!- _quasi [n=quasi@59.161.60.166] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:47:28 Of course there can be multiple last expressions, every node that links to the end of the function if you visualize the function's CFG 20:47:31 clhs: values 20:47:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm 20:47:45 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:39 And then there are the functions that "don't return". 20:49:11 Both the infinite loops and those which end up getting unwound. 20:49:36 The former ones you can interrupt, and the decide to return a value from a stack frame =) 20:49:42 s/the/then/ 20:50:58 tcr: I've read that before.... So, if the function is a loop pushing something into a list. So I should just do (list mylist) at the end? 20:51:09 I.e., after the loop 20:51:18 only if you want to return a list in a list 20:51:19 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:51:35 if you want to return MYLIST, just write MYLIST 20:52:00 What resource do you use to learn Lisp from? 20:55:03 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@66.166.232.134] has quit [] 20:55:49 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D4AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:57:02 tcr: Ansi Common Lisp book. It worked now, I should have figured out. 20:57:58 KalifG [n=user@216.54.144.34] has joined #lisp 20:59:04 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:28 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 21:02:19 matthewbrown [n=matthewb@adsl-162-171-45.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:30 tcr: You're a slime hacker, aren't you? 21:03:14 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:26 -!- vy [n=user@88.231.232.38] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:44 kind of, yeah 21:03:46 tcr: Can you tell me if I missed a trick in http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/sbcl-win32-slime-and-cygwin-emacs.txt ? 21:04:18 I'll look at it in a few minutes 21:04:31 Sure, no real hurry. 21:04:52 I've probably got four or five hours left before I sign off until Friday. 21:04:57 Hey, I'm new to lisp. Does anybody know some good resources I can look into? 21:05:14 minion: Tell matthewbrown about that-dead-sexy-book. 21:05:15 matthewbrown: have a look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:05:31 -!- crod [n=cmell@x250044.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:06:18 Hello all. Does it make sense to wrap sockets in a filesystem, a-la 9P, for network programming in lisp? 21:06:36 I'm trying to figure out how to export (defclass) forms on connection to a foreign server. 21:06:50 nyef, minion: thanks 21:06:57 mogunus: inside lisp, not really, though defining a kind of pathnames might make it easier to define... 21:07:14 mogunus: ah, you are making a kind of RPC? 21:07:28 p_l, Yeah, and I want it to be a 9P-ish one. 21:07:48 crod [n=cmell@y192002.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 21:07:56 -!- matthewbrown [n=matthewb@adsl-162-171-45.rmo.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 21:08:10 then make a "server" object and have it a kind of hierarchical tree that would call different forms 21:08:18 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:09:00 That is part of the plan... I'm trying to figure out if it makes sense to have the client automatically get class definitions from the server and load them on connection. 21:09:54 ... But that's not what you opened with. 21:10:08 Has, in fact, nothing to do with what you opened with. 21:10:31 nyef: some people have trouble explaining themselves (I'm a big offender) 21:10:35 And it rather depends on how much you trust the server. 21:10:54 p_l: I'm probably not to great in that regard, myself. 21:10:58 nyef: if he is going 9P route, authentication is done before mount 21:11:14 (yes, that is totally not what I opened with) 21:11:21 (I am *terrible* at explaining myself) 21:11:52 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["Bb!"] 21:12:09 I'm still trying to figure out how to articulate why SBCL on windows is a bad idea, and forking a separate win32/win64 SBCL derivative is a good idea. 21:12:48 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:12:53 but anyway... in 9p, you read and write to files and then get a computed hierarchy back. it would be really cool if you could read and write a couple object slots and the hierarchy on the server gets computed. 21:13:13 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:27 nyef: would such a port be source-compatible? 21:13:32 and transparantly updated on the client 21:13:58 almagus [n=alex@93.186.212.118] has joined #lisp 21:14:10 p_l: Yes-and-no. 21:15:07 How can it be completely source-compatible when if it ditches file-descriptor-based operation for handle-based operation? 21:15:13 mogunus: that's a lot more complex to handle sanely than just passing data around. I'd find a use-case first. (I don't see the relation with 9P either) 21:15:22 At the same time, so long as you don't touch those bits, everything "just works". 21:15:37 i guess it comes down to a cost/benefit calculation of now much the work for a windows port benefits only the windows base, and how much of it is also good for all the platforms? 21:15:39 nyef: I mean outside of stuff that is completely OS-dependand 21:16:04 Aren't all CL implementations then defined to be source-compatible, simply by virtue of being CL? 21:16:29 (Yeah, I know, there's still extensions like the compiler, etc.) 21:16:40 nyef: compatible enough ;) 21:16:49 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:16:54 well, I had some surprises trying to run stuff on CCL :P 21:17:10 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:17:21 pkhuong: Which leads to the question of "enough for what purpose"? 21:17:41 How can I convert a integer to the corresponding ascii-character? 21:17:48 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:17:56 The-Kenny: you can hope that code-char works. 21:18:20 nyef: ah the pesky real world and its fuzziness. I'll go back to my math now. 21:18:36 pkhuong, the use case is my metadata manager. I want the gui-client to be seperate from the server. 21:18:36 pkhuong: Thank you :) 21:18:42 nyef: I doubt that much code depends on filedescriptors, especially since unix isn't all that great at keeping them well :) 21:18:57 having threading work without difference would be nice 21:19:18 (that's what failed for me on SBCL->CCL transition) 21:19:21 Yeah, threading might well have to change. 21:19:23 hmmm, i'm trying to read a file to a stream, but i get the stream longer than file, filled with zeros, how can that be? 21:19:32 mogunus: do you define classes at runtime? 21:19:51 i create the stream with (make-stream (file-length s)) 21:20:07 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:09 The problem being that I don't understand the linux or posix primitives, and I don't really understand the SBCL primitives built on top of them, but I have a good (if you'll pardon the pun) handle on the windows primitives. 21:20:14 pkhuong, no. storage of metadata is done in a database (couchdb). classes are all defined at compile-time. 21:20:18 abeaumont: what's make-stream. 21:20:20 abeaumont: characters are not bytes 21:20:43 s/make-stream/make-string sorry 21:20:48 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:21:46 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:21:47 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:21:56 nyef: I think the only real fork should be for low-level stuff (Virtual Memory, FFI?) with as much code kept common... 21:22:02 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:10 nyef: also, you can use POSIX on NT, it's supported :D 21:22:17 mogunus: so what does getting class definitions from the wire have to do with your application? 21:22:50 pkhuong: probably a generalised gui that can adapt to data? 21:23:23 -!- KalifG [n=user@216.54.144.34] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:23:43 michaelw: hmmm, so i guess i should go reading character by character? 21:23:45 p_l: but the application never defines classes at runtime. However it ``adapts to data'', it won't need to redefine classes to do so. 21:24:02 Quite possibly. It leaves some logistical problems, of course, but clearly separates the maintainance burden of the windows side of things from SBCL proper. 21:24:05 pkhuong: I'm reasoning from incomplete data... 21:24:10 pkhuong, the metadata server has a "directory" which is a standard container per the protocol with one object for the elements of the query, and one object that leads to the tree structure that it computes 21:24:19 abeaumont: read-sequence. 21:24:40 abeaumont: no. http://www.emmett.ca/~sabetts/slurp.html 21:24:59 pkhuong: i use read-sequence... the problem is that my stream gets some 'extra' zeroed characters 21:25:27 hmmm, i guess i should use pastebin :) 21:26:22 the object for accepting a query has slots for each query component. a different application would certainly want a different kind of object for accepting commands from it's client. or maybe I don't need class definitions over the wire and I can do the whole thing in terms of "standard" container and hierarchy objects, per the protocol. 21:26:23 Anyway, my point is that windows is a very different system than most of the others that SBCL has been ported to, to the point where some parts of the system are clearly exhibiting "scar tissue" where things were forced together. 21:26:33 hmm, I should dust off my series-based slurping/chunking code. it reads nicely and compiles down to efficient code 21:26:45 abeaumont: you can use a fill-pointer, a displaced array, or copy to another vector of just the right length. 21:27:41 oh right, or sb-kernel:%shrink-vector. 21:27:53 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 21:28:42 nyef: Good words 21:31:26 The other side of this, though, is supporting a more traditional windows view of development, which is that you have an IDE, you interoperate with COM objects and DLLs, and so on. 21:31:29 pkhuong: oh shrink-vector sounds like perfect, thanks! 21:31:55 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:32:11 Essentially, more of a "full-featured" environment than SBCL traditionally provides. 21:32:18 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 21:32:20 abeaumont: did you scroll all the way down on the webpage I mentioned? 21:32:29 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-26-7.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:47 you can use POSIX on NT? 21:32:52 Fade: yes 21:33:17 google SUA 21:33:18 POSIX on NT is an additional download, though, isn't it? 21:33:21 NT is a posix compliant system? 21:33:51 nyef: kind of - you can afaik distribute a runtime and for some time a base set of libraries was included, but they were outdated compared to interix ones 21:34:18 abeaumont: Unportable, probably of marginal utility here, and might be a pain to debug if you're not careful. 21:34:24 Fade: there's an official POSIX layer 21:34:36 ISTR that SUA is, or was, rather deficient compared both to a proper posix system and to the normal windows APIs. 21:34:49 that's sort of surprising given the intrinsic differences for file handling. 21:35:06 nyef: some apps are deficient, but API seems to be a quite full-featured BSD-equivalent 21:35:16 and you can link to windows APIs 21:35:33 as it's designed more for a portability thing 21:36:13 bolting posix onto windows sounds like a better sol'n than forking sbcl. 21:36:49 It's not a good solution if you want to support existing windows programmers. 21:36:51 Fade: not really, IMHO. I would love to have SBCL directly on top of Win32, with full support for windows api 21:37:05 pfft 21:37:15 and I'd especially target anyone who decided to use Cygwin for portability 21:37:46 I thought making SBCL run on native windows was a summer of code target for last year or something? 21:37:56 -!- voidengineer [n=Stephen@75.139.179.172] has quit [] 21:38:03 I know I've had a lot of trouble getting *any* decent CL running on Windows, even with cygwin. 21:38:08 Fade: And that is -exactly- the reaction that I'd expect from someone who cares more for SBCL-as-it-is than for SBCL/Win32 as it could be for a windows programmer. 21:38:18 rlpowell: The SoC thing was specifically for threading support. 21:38:41 rlpowell: I'd say adding Cygwin would make it harder 21:39:04 lets not let this rumor propagate that sbcl/win32 does not run on "native" win32 21:39:32 nyef: Ah, right; sorry. Did that get done? 21:39:40 Not so far as I know. 21:39:45 nyef: fair'nuff 21:39:52 The original patches had bit-rotted badly. 21:40:05 i spend too much of my time cleaning up in the aftermath of microsoft's sales engineers. :) 21:40:15 michaelw: hehe, no, it seems to be the solution... i'll give it a try 21:40:23 so i'm probably a little bit hostile to anything that'd make windows stronger. 21:40:38 (Which was a pity, as they really wouldn't have taken an unreasonable amount of effort to get basically running had someone picked them up when they were originally posted.) 21:41:01 Fade: *sales* engineers... I'd love for the guys who kept crying "backward compatibility" with win9x to be put to long and gruesome death 21:41:36 Fade: I'm more interested in making free Lisp stronger than not making Windows stronger. 21:41:51 'course, i guess it'd be nice to be able to write a lisp system and deploy it on sbcl in unix and windows. 21:42:10 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:42:14 that could solve a lot of political problems with choosing lisp in the first place 21:42:50 yeah. as much as I like Corman CL for their policy, they lack some stuff I want 21:43:10 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.3.64] has quit [Success] 21:43:41 is corman derived from a prior lisp? 21:43:45 voidengineer [n=Stephen@75.139.179.172] has joined #lisp 21:44:02 man xchat is renarded 21:44:07 -!- almagus [n=alex@93.186.212.118] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:44:09 AFAIK it was written from scratch, though the company previously sold Power Lisp 21:44:34 p_l: What is it that Corman Lisp lacks that you want? 21:44:34 of the commercial lisps, I've only toyed a bit with allegro. 21:44:49 General question: there are a lot of CL helper-libraries out there; cl-containers, metatilities, moptilities, anaphora, etc. Most of them are somewhat lacking in documentation, specifically the "why would I want to use this library?" kind. They tend to already assume that you've run into whatever problems it solves. 21:44:57 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:58 nyef: better unicode support 21:45:06 p_l: Ah. Fair enough. 21:45:14 I'm fairly new to CL, so I'm wondering: has anyone done an overview of those libs and said "Here's why you'd want to use libs X, Y, and Z."? 21:45:32 there's some of that kind of coverage at cliki 21:45:44 nyef: they've got the best licensing terms of all prioprietary CLs on win32, though 21:45:54 rlpowell: Any such overview would have been done on an ad-hoc basis. 21:46:04 rlpowell: cl-containers for when you want containers. anaphora for when you want anaphoric macros (purely a question of personal style). alexandria for misc useful-to-have utility. 21:46:14 p_l: I bet. But at the same time, I'd much rather have a free lisp. 21:46:34 nyef: Of course, I'm just wondering if such an ad hoc overview has been written. 21:46:35 nyef: Oh, and it doesn't have 64bit 21:46:43 boo hiss 21:46:46 michaelw: yep, it works! thanks! 21:46:53 probably because there's no viable 64bit windows. :) 21:46:56 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:47:04 p_l: Well, SBCL/Win64 is going to be nasty to implement anyway... 21:47:25 Fade: last windows deployments I did were Win64 :> 21:47:36 rlpowell: don't think so. feel free to write it 21:47:43 64bit kernel? 21:47:49 64bit userland? 21:47:52 headers? 21:47:55 etc? 21:47:56 lol 21:48:02 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:48:03 pkhuong: cl-containers is the best example, actually; I have no idea why I'd want to use an array-container instead of a plain array, or a list-iterator instead of a loop command. 21:48:07 the only reason my current install is 32bit is because I couldn't have 64bit under VBox 21:48:15 fe[nl]ix: I was thinking about it; that's why I asked. I had duplicating work. :) 21:48:26 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:48:35 i'm always sort of shocked when I meet smart people who live in windows. 21:48:53 Fade: I find it not as bad... except that my usage is slightly different :D 21:49:01 *rlpowell* is quite happy with windows as a desktop. 21:49:05 (but then, I game :) 21:49:06 afk - getting out of library, it's getting closed ^^; 21:49:10 boo hiss 21:49:51 I find windows to be a good non-programming environment. 21:50:06 That, yes. 21:50:13 I do all my coding under GNU screen. :) 21:50:29 (which reminds me that I need to investigate screenwm some more) 21:50:52 When it comes to actual programming, I'm rather hampered by the lack of good free windows lisp. 21:50:53 rlpowell: the point of it all is the non-native containers and the utility functions on containers. After that, having a shared interface is useful. 21:51:36 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-33-76.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:51:53 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 21:52:06 nyef: I'm glad it's not just me! 21:52:20 I went looking, because I was thinking about doing a game in Lisp and wanted Linux and Windows, at least. 21:52:45 nyef: is clozure not up to snuff on win32? 21:53:01 Fade: Some people have to use windows :) 21:53:33 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:35 In my previous job I had to be able to use Visual Studio and the XBox dev thing for testing, for instance 21:53:46 Fade: Clozure has some pretty dire warnings for their windows ports to start with. And then there's the SVN thing. 21:54:14 SVN thing? 21:54:17 nyef: dire warnings ? 21:54:33 i'm pretty happy /w clozure on osx. but obviously lisps between architectures can be barely related. 21:55:09 *stassats`* is happy with clozure on linux-x8664 21:55:11 fe[nl]ix: Have a look at what their windows notes page says about thread-safety, for example. 21:55:44 Plus, I want an actual IDE instead of this SLIME crap, and ccl doesn't seem to offer that yet outside of OSX. 21:56:10 shipping the clozure ide with clozure written as a clozure example is a nice touch. 21:56:27 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.3.64] has joined #lisp 21:57:29 And another thing is that I'm fairly well invested in SBCL/Win32 already. 21:57:47 Which might just be the sunk cost fallacy speaking, or it might not. 21:59:01 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-145-2.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:59:07 i like the idea of making sbcl stronger, but i'm sort of wary of forking considering the relative size of the group of devs available to do sbcl work. 21:59:26 *rlpowell* high fives nyef for knowing what the sunk cost fallacy is. 21:59:33 someone forking sbcl? 21:59:44 tritchey: Maybe. 21:59:50 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 22:00:12 nyef: SLIME is much better than the marginal IDE offeredd by ccl on OSX 22:00:33 I agree with that, incidentally. 22:00:45 well, it comes from a proud line of forking, doesn't it? :) 22:00:55 Fade: You're not really going to lose anybody through such a fork. Changes can propagate back upstream, plus those-who-fork would be hoping to attract win32 devs that wouldn't be invested in the existing SBCL community. 22:01:03 the ccl IDE has a lot of ptential, but isn't really that good right now 22:01:12 (excuse the typos; horrible latency today for some reason) 22:01:22 nyef: you looking at a win32-focused fork? 22:01:23 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 22:01:25 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [No route to host] 22:01:27 tritchey: Yes. 22:01:27 nyef: that's a valid point. 22:01:53 I'd like to have a stable sbcl windows port even though I don't do windows personally. 22:02:00 there must be at least one or two windows devs with lisp chops who want a free lisp. 22:02:04 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-156-117.vologda.ru] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:02:41 Fade: Or vice-versa, which is sortof where I am. 22:03:09 Fade: the path of least resitance would always be going with linux, though 22:03:19 espeicailly as it can nowadays be easily run in a VM 22:03:33 and if you use slime and tramp you need hardly know that linux is involved 22:03:33 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:03:35 mega1: That's sortof what I'm talking about. We have an sbcl windows port, but it gets no love because almost no sbcl dev even runs windows. 22:03:37 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 22:03:48 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:03:57 rsynnott: Sucks for deployment, though. 22:04:06 nyef: how would that change with a fork? 22:04:09 Also sucks if you need to access COM objects. 22:04:15 the lisp::unix cultures are congruent. 22:04:15 rsynnott: Except for the whole "it takes all your RAM" thing. Not good. 22:04:42 rlpowell: what takes all your ram? 22:04:48 mega1: A fork has more flexibility to change things to suit windows. 22:04:52 RAM is pretty cheap these days 22:04:53 Running a full linux in a VM. 22:05:10 Fade: in what world? The impedance mismatch between CL and unix is pretty awesome. 22:05:16 and you can happily run sbcl in a 256MB image 22:05:23 If what you want is to distribute something is Lisp to Windows people, "run linux in a VM" really isn't a solution. 22:05:24 pkhuong: i meant socially. 22:05:34 lisp people also tend to be unix people. 22:05:45 also, most lisp impls nowadays have evolved on unix 22:05:58 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:05:59 nyef: there won't magically be more sbcl devs who do windows even if it's a fork 22:06:00 Fade: is there any choice nowadays? 22:06:08 Fade: programmers in general tend to be unix people, no? 22:06:18 in general. 22:06:38 although I am told there are colonies of people who never venture out of windows or macos 22:06:38 ... Ummm. There are a *LOT* of windows applications out there, guys. I think that's a silly assertion. 22:07:09 lots of windows applications, certainly 22:07:09 perhaps these are self reinforcing bias' perpetuated because we're just the group that could figure out how to start irc and point it somewhere relevant. 22:07:37 but surely very few serious propgrammers who don't have at least reasonable experience with unix-y things 22:07:43 mega1: True. But a forked SBCL could be made to run better on windows without having to worry so much about compatability with the upstream version, and once it -does- work it could attract some developers on its own merits. 22:07:50 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:08:12 nyef: ... and be merged back, too. 22:08:27 it'd be a shame if these two sbcl's weren't compatible. 22:08:40 Yes, of course. Anything done on the one could be migrated to the other, and the fork could rejoin. 22:08:54 well, they'd presuably run the same code 22:09:09 It's also about a different philosophy of development, and different goals. 22:09:23 ? 22:09:40 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:43 It's not enough to have SBCL/Win32 as it is, because that just doesn't mesh with the typical windows idea of development. 22:10:12 what would be different about the win32 fork? 22:10:17 easy access to COM and .NET? 22:10:40 rsynnott: You can get those with an add-on library easily, so not exactly. 22:10:44 this intersystem compatibility is solved by a system abstraction module in python. 22:10:47 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 22:10:56 could the same approach be used /w lisp? 22:11:07 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:11:21 But just look at all the junk in the SBCL runtime to do with signal handling. 22:11:33 -None- of it applies to Win32. 22:11:58 is it necessary junk, or just hairy code? 22:11:59 could that functionality not be made an optional thing without forking? 22:12:04 Take stop-for-GC. The very approach taken just doesn't work for Win32 because it's based on signal handling. 22:12:09 gattobaldo [n=chatzill@94.36.113.36] has joined #lisp 22:13:27 although I guess in python the target is a generalised virtual machine. 22:13:37 as a compiler sbcl has other worries. 22:13:39 Take non-blocking or asynchronous I/O and other events. Win32 select() only works on sockets, SBCL has a wrapper that tries to fake it but doesn't work right, SERVE-EVENT is defined on file-descriptors, but file-descriptors on win32 are faked up anyway, and -leak- to boot. 22:14:01 do they still? 22:14:05 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-1-143.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:06 thought that went out with dos 22:14:06 -!- voidengineer [n=Stephen@75.139.179.172] has quit [] 22:14:06 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:18 File descriptors are a convention of msvcrt. There's an API to allocate one for a random handle, but the only way to deallocate one is to use the msvcrt close() function, which doesn't help if you want/need to close the underlying handle yourself. 22:15:32 Therefore: They're faked up, and they leak. 22:15:45 jesus. 22:15:54 are you sure you want to work on that platform? :) 22:16:00 *Fade* ducks 22:16:04 Any portable non-blocking / asynchronous I/O mechanism must then be set at a higher level of abstraction. 22:16:21 diracdelta [n=Chris@c-24-6-88-207.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:25 voidengineer [n=stderr@75.139.179.172] has joined #lisp 22:17:05 Fade: I have a problem right now that involves parsing program source code, access to a database via ODBC, and the only ODBC drivers I've got access to are on Win32. I fully expect it to also involve output to Word or Excel at some point. 22:17:07 nyef: you can easily factor out the low-level I/O out of the fd-streams and make two separate versions for *nix and win32 22:17:25 as for the GC, you can write a new one for win32 only 22:17:33 yeah, i'd be reaching for python.exe about now. :/ 22:17:46 adding another stop-for-gc mechanism is not the end of the world 22:17:47 or lispworks, perhaps? 22:18:02 I guess it's what others have done too(Franz, LW, etc...) 22:18:02 pkhuong has one already is his tree 22:18:17 So maybe I start with a personal tree for a while and see what happens. 22:18:38 -!- Athas`` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:43 well, i don't see as how anything is lost by doing so. 22:18:46 But as soon as I package it for distribution it becomes, de facto, a port. 22:18:56 Err... s/port/fork/ 22:18:59 but calling it a 'fork' usually makes people squirmy. 22:19:08 -!- ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-126-11.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:20:06 -!- mije [n=mije@tal33-5-88-181-16-209.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:20:43 nyef: I'd be very interested in such a fork, myself, as I'd like to deploy win32 lisp apps 22:20:43 mega1: yeah, well, it's mostly not working due to all the signal stuff. 22:21:18 how do you do GC w/out signals? 22:21:21 how does the win32 ccl port approach this? 22:21:39 rsynnott: With buy-in from the core development team. 22:22:24 is there actually a political problem involved in doing this work in the main sbcl development tree? 22:22:33 or is it just disinterest? 22:22:39 It's largely disinterest. 22:22:57 Fade: i expect the work would break a lot of thing, so it'd be in a private branch for a while anyway. 22:23:08 pkhuong: *nod* 22:23:08 I thought nyef wants to avoid to continuous integration worries. 22:23:36 mega1: any compatible fork is going to generate continuous integration worries. see emacs/xemacs 22:24:02 Plus, with a fork, as I said, you can change the development focus. Instead of producing a kickass compiler and language, focus on producing a system that windows programmers would want to -use-, which means an IDE, native API bindings, in-process and out-of-process COM automation, etc. 22:24:36 well, tbh, half that stuff would be nice in any environment. 22:24:37 in all likelihood these would not involve sbcl proper 22:24:41 And then there's threading. 22:24:53 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:07 Or SBCL.DLL. 22:25:20 threading is a general porting problem 22:25:29 do you think there is much risk of stepping on each other's toes when adding IDEs and native API bindings? 22:25:32 perhaps a discussion about the threading approach in sbcl would be good. 22:25:36 threading is intrusive, yes. 22:26:39 baffg [n=baffg@208-254-122-026.plateautel.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:29 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:27 Beket [n=stathis@ppp206-128.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:31:51 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:37 -!- baffg [n=baffg@208-254-122-026.plateautel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:33:25 lispi [n=irc@athedsl-4364062.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:33:30 Hello I'm trying to make an adjustable bit vector 22:33:32 ECL might be a better starting point for a windows lisp 22:33:34 but I just can't understand how to use make-array 22:33:52 (make-array :element-type 'bit adjustable t) does not cut it 22:34:06 (make-array 100 :element-type 'bit :adjustable t) 22:34:08 clhs make-array 22:34:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 22:34:21 I have read that page... I don't understadn what I'm doing wrong 22:34:32 lispi: and we haven't got a clue what you want to do. 22:34:34 I see that the dimensions are not provided, but even if I provide something it does not work 22:34:45 pkhuong: "I'm trying to make an adjustable bit vector" 22:35:38 (setf *data* (make-array 1 :fill-pointer t :element-type 'bit :adjustable t)) 22:35:42 (vector-push-extend #*101010 *data*) 22:35:45 Something like that? 22:35:57 :fill-pointer 1 22:36:17 the v-p-e still won't work correctly. 22:36:39 But the hyperspec is not an easy read 22:36:45 baffg [n=baffg@208-254-122-026.plateautel.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:47 I don't understand what it says about vector-push-extend and make-array 22:36:57 lispi: Yeah make-array is a complex beast 22:37:29 well I'm just trying to learn common lisp... in theory everythings fine but every time I tryto write a simple application I'm stuck at trivial things 22:37:38 arrays in general are a bit awkard until you get the hang of them 22:37:42 you created an array of bits. You can only put bits in it. 22:37:54 ah I see 22:38:56 but if I try this (setf (make-array 1 :fill-pointer 1 :element-type 'bit :adjustable t)) and then (vector-push-extended *data* #*1) it still doesn't work - I'm trying to push a single bit 22:39:07 You're confused 22:39:09 no, you're pushing a bit vector. 22:39:24 (vector-push-extended 1 *data*) 22:39:35 #*1 is the syntax for a literal bitvector of length 1 with a 1 as its content 22:39:58 okay I understand that 22:40:17 so... what exactly is the fill-pointer? Is it an index to the last element of the vector? 22:40:24 (As a side note, be aware that modifying literal data results in undefined consequences.) 22:40:35 Which data is literal? 22:40:56 lispi: clhs has glossar 22:41:01 I modify *data*, which I thought to be an adjustable bit vector, after (make-array ...) 22:41:05 which answers both questions 22:41:20 Data produced by the reader, as a rule of thumb 22:41:46 I don't understand... I looked up fill-pointer, but I don't understand where I modify literal data 22:41:46 specbot: The problem with ECL is that it requires a C compiler for "normal" operation during development. 22:41:49 lispi: Right, hence "side note". 22:41:56 Err... spacebat, not specbot. 22:42:01 (Damned tab-completion.) 22:42:13 nyef: is that a maojr problem? 22:42:13 lol 22:42:19 C compilers aren't hard to come by these days? 22:43:05 even then, the vector starts from being #*0... can I start it from #* 22:43:41 rsynnott: It's... irritating, at best. 22:43:50 nvm, fill-pointer 0 22:43:54 It's also an extra dependency. 22:44:17 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:46:33 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@165.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:47:02 If I want to push 8 bits to a bit vector, that are the representation of a character, I understand that first I'm going to read the character with READ-CHAR. Then I'm going to turn it into an ... integer? with CHAR-INT, but what's to do then? 22:47:22 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:47:33 how can I make a character into an array of bits? and vice versa, but I imagine that answering one of the questions answers the other 22:48:09 lispi: don't bet on a character necessarily being 8 bits 22:48:19 lispi: your question has no answer. 22:48:25 lispi: you need to refine your question. 22:48:42 lispi: you need to encode it. in certain encodings, like utf-8, it can end up being 3+ bytes... 22:48:50 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:48:58 Alright, let me ask again 22:49:06 up to _6_, for utf8! 22:49:08 -!- baffg [n=baffg@208-254-122-026.plateautel.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:49:08 I want to read a single byte from the input stream, and push its bit representaiton to the bit vector 22:49:19 I don't care for how many bits the byte has -- it odesn't matter 22:49:23 If you read bytes then you don't have characters. 22:49:30 pjb: very well. 22:49:31 why do you want a bit-vector? 22:49:45 Lisp doesn't care either for the number of bits per byte. 22:50:04 pjb: and I don't care either, read my text 22:50:19 (with-open-file (input "somefile" :element-type (unsigned-byte 41)) ...) to read 41-bit bytes. 22:50:39 pkhuong: I'm writing a data-to-base64 function, I have to read the bytes, then take each 6 bits as an index to the 64 element encoding 22:50:47 ... Not that 41-bit bytes are a portably useful stream element type... 22:51:12 lispi: to take bits you can use LDB ; to deposit bits you can use DPB 22:51:29 pjb: but what is LDB and DPB? 22:51:37 clhs ldb 22:51:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ldb.htm 22:51:40 LDB is the function used to take bits from bytes. 22:51:51 DPB is the function used to deposit bits into bytes. 22:51:52 Note that this doesn't involve a bit-vector, it treats an integer -as- a bit-vector. 22:52:37 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:53:04 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 22:53:20 I don't understand 22:53:30 ldb says it takes a bytespec which is a byte specifier, t or nil 22:53:38 nyef: (unsigned-byte 8) is not necessarily more portable. It just happen to be so with the current implementations. 22:53:40 then (byte 2 1) is passed to it? Why not just t or nil 22:53:44 t and nil certainly aren't byte specifiers. 22:54:06 Oh yeah, and process your input in three-octet chunks, producing an (unsigned-byte 24), and hack off your four output indices from there. 22:54:11 lispi: if you want to take the bits 7-1 from an integer, you write (ldb (byte 6 1) i) 22:54:27 pkhuong: I read the top entry in the glossary and it was "boolean" I thought it was byte specifier because I had clicked on it 22:54:37 pjb: thanks 22:54:50 manuel__ [n=manuel@29.76.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:22 clhs read-byte 22:55:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_by.htm 22:55:40 (ldb (byte 8 0) 1024) does not work 22:55:47 it returns 18? What is that :s 22:56:01 Here it returns 0. 22:56:05 What base do you use? 22:56:21 Probably different input and output bases. 22:56:21 10 22:56:30 -!- Malbolgne [n=baal@h49n2fls303o885.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:36 Try: (ldb (byte 8. 0.) 1024.) 22:56:48 same output 22:56:56 waht the fuck is this so hard to do in common lisp 22:56:57 that's... weird 22:57:03 What implementation do you use? 22:57:13 gnu clisp 22:57:14 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-118-210.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:57:14 ldb has guaranteed endian-ness, right? 22:57:19 rsynnott: yes. 22:57:21 I use it too. 22:57:36 Version 2.47; what's yours? 22:57:40 Okay, is (ldb (byte 8 0) 255) supposed to return #*11111111 ? 22:57:52 lispi: no. LDB and DPB work with integers. 22:57:53 No. It's supposed to return 255. 22:58:00 something weird this way comes 22:58:10 but taht is not what I want 22:58:12 :/ 22:58:18 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 22:58:20 Why would you want bit vectors? 22:58:25 You want a pony? 22:58:28 lispi: you most definitely don't want a bit vector for base64. 22:58:45 *nooper* wants a pony vector 22:59:01 *Hun* wants a vectorized pony 22:59:02 pkhuong: I have thought how I want to write the program in common lisp 22:59:03 rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-50-174.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:59:05 Your inability to listen to what people are telling you is obnoxious. 22:59:05 and I don't see why it shouldn't work 22:59:56 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-50-174.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp 22:59:56 btw, any more serious windows dev is going to have all parts necessary to run ECL 23:00:17 p_l: More serious than what? 23:00:24 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:00:34 I just want a function that takes an integer and returns its bit representaiton 23:00:39 nyef: than some kiddy clicking out his apps in VB.NET 23:00:51 like (f 2) ==> #*1 and (f 255) ==> #*11111111 23:01:05 p_l: Not on every machine, they're not. 23:01:14 lispi: do you realize that integers have infinite bit representations in lisp? 23:01:15 I mean #*10 on the first example btw 23:01:29 lispi: why would you want to do that? 23:01:32 pjb: their values can't possibly have infinite bit representations 23:01:33 The -only- reason my winxp vm has a C compiler is that I installed cygwin so I could get a usable lisp. 23:01:38 Each value has a single representaiton in every base 23:01:44 just create a big array and use the integer /itself/ as the offset 23:01:51 And that failed miserably for a week before I got SBCL/Win32 sorted out. 23:01:58 nyef: oh come on, platform sdk is not so hard to install. And it comes with the *proper* header files and libs necessary for proper win32 development 23:02:20 It's still a nuisance. 23:02:26 lispi: perhaps you mean a 2^p modulo, 2-complement notation? But Lisp doesn't publish such a representation. 23:02:35 clhs logbitp 23:02:35 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logbtp.htm 23:02:40 pjb: actually... 23:02:42 lispi: have at this function. 23:02:53 Hun: I want to wreate a bit-vector to push the bit representations of bytes read from a steram to it. When I'm done reading, I'm going to read each 6 bits from the bit vector (padding as needed) and convert those 6-bit vectors back to integers 23:03:02 pjb: I don't care for signedness, I want bit vectors 23:03:08 so I can't possibly care for two's complement 23:03:16 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:03:18 *p_l* is going to check if his ECL includes threading 23:03:31 But in Lisp, integers have an infinite number of bits. 23:03:41 their values _DO_ not. that doesn't make sense 23:03:52 Look, is there a way in common lisp to have the bit representation of a value? 23:03:53 When you have positive integers, there's an infinite number of 0; when you have negative integers, there's an infinite number of 1. 23:03:53 *stassats`* sigh 23:04:04 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 23:04:10 lispi: have you read the clhs page for logbitp given above? 23:04:23 sorry missed it 23:04:35 nyef pasted "for lispi" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77052 23:04:40 Hey people, please slow down! Lispi is missing lines! 23:05:08 so I have to wirte a function that builds the bit vectors 23:05:10 with logbitp? 23:05:22 I think I have to do more work in lisp than in C for what I want to do 23:05:34 lispi: Only if you actually want the bit vectors, but that would be ludicrously inefficient. 23:05:55 alright then maybe I'm thinking this the wrong way, how would it be efficient to write a data-to-base64 function? 23:05:59 lispi: why do you insist on using bit-vectors? 23:06:07 hallelujah 23:06:09 typedef enum {zero=0,one} bit; bit bv[32]; int i=412341241; // now convert i into bv! 23:06:10 lispi: Have a look at the paste I just gave, it'd be a start. 23:06:51 lispi: when you write i&(1< pjb: it's possible? 23:07:16 lispi: there's already cl-base64. why not use that ? 23:07:30 and you'd want bit bv[sizeof (int) * CHAR_BIT], don't forget that sizeof(int) * CHAR_BIT is not necessarily 32 ... ;-) 23:07:31 tcr: Did you have a change to read over that article from earlier? 23:07:37 Is there an command in emacs to swap oe argument of a list with the element before/after? 23:07:49 I mean "one argument" 23:07:54 The-Kenny: M-C-t ? 23:07:59 fe[nl]ix: I'm not doing this because I have to, but to learn... I thought about data-to-base64 as a problem to solve 23:08:11 nyef: Exactly :) Thank you 23:08:13 maybe it's just not teh proper problem, anything else I can implement in common lisp 23:08:14 lispi: I'd wouldn't want you as a C programmer... 23:08:41 pjb: I don't care, my C is fine 23:08:45 saikat [n=saikat@r253170217.resnet.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 23:08:56 if you don't know that int is not necessarily 32-bits in C it's not my problem 23:09:46 nyef: I have to say, ECL on win32 was pretty straightforward for me 23:10:14 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:19 p_l: Fair enough, but I'm not inclined to try it myself. 23:10:21 (and yes, I can has threads!) 23:10:38 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.40.60] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:10:49 Can you has use-value restarts as well? 23:11:20 ":WIN32 :FORMATTER :IEEE-FLOATING-POINT :RELATIVE-PACKAGE-NAMES :UNICODE :DFFI 23:11:20 :CLOS-STREAMS :CMU-FORMAT :MSVC :ECL-PDE :DLOPEN :CLOS :THREADS :BOEHM-GC 23:11:23 :ANSI-CL :COMMON-LISP :ECL :COMMON :PENTIUM4 :FFI :PREFIXED-API)" 23:11:25 argh 23:11:37 i hate copying between windows and X11 23:11:41 lispi: it is, of course, always 16 bits 23:11:53 (revealed knowledge from the Prophet Schildt) 23:12:10 rsynnott: Heh. 23:12:38 -!- jocke_ [n=jocke@witychu.khg.sgsnet.se] has quit ["Lämnar"] 23:12:41 I thought there was an implementation where sizeof(int) == sizeof(long) == sizeof(short) == 3? 23:12:49 rsynnott: except when it's 36bit and pointers are 18bit :P 23:12:52 (he's better known for his stance on the imaginary function 'void main') 23:12:59 lispi: http://paste.lisp.org/display/77053 23:13:07 rsynnott: lol :-) 23:13:11 nyef: doesn't sound entirely impossible 23:13:21 24 bit ADDRESSES were definitely popular at one time 23:13:31 nyef: sounds legal, at least. 23:13:33 Umm... Wait, wasn't there a rule that "void main" was legal so long as it didn't return? 23:13:46 void main(void) is legal 23:14:02 in which language? 23:14:07 in ANSI C 23:14:09 nyef: not in proper C, no 23:14:11 you're wrong 23:14:13 it's valid only in C99 23:14:17 not in C89 23:14:18 in freestanding implementaitons, but that's up to #c 23:14:18 or at least I haven't met a compiler that complained 23:14:35 (there are allowances made for 'embedded' languages in the spec which allow you to have any sort of main that you feel like) 23:14:43 p_l: still not legal, though 23:14:52 ah well 23:14:57 legal is a pretty strong word 23:15:07 rsynnott: which is exactly what I mean by "free-standing implementations"... the standard of common lisp shares a lot with C, since there's undefined behavior in both stardards for the same reasons 23:15:12 most compilers are pretty tolerant of it, though some used to produce broken code for it 23:15:27 (the return from the application could potentially have been an arbitrary integer) 23:15:47 Hun: try your function for (int-bits 255) 23:16:09 oopsie. fix that ;) 23:16:19 heh alright I'll look into it 23:16:28 Hun: well well well, we give to newbies functions that don't work? 23:16:55 it worked on the few cases i tried. i don't really like this kind of code :) 23:17:03 Everyone makes mistakes now and then 23:17:39 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:58 But... why are you bothering to convert to and from bitvectors? Integers are bitfields already, and it's far more efficient to operate in terms of them. 23:18:16 because taht's how base64 works 23:18:30 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70ccb2.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:18:33 You have some data right 23:18:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:18:52 nyef: What's with that filename hackery? 23:18:56 and you read 6-bits each time, adding padding bits if necessary. The 6-bit integer you read is the index to the encoding charset 23:19:17 nyef: because he's "thought how he wants to write the program in common lisp", and clearly it's CL that's making things hard. 23:19:20 set up your stream with a (unsigned-byte 6). pad. [array+offset]. write to (unsigned-byte 8) or 'character 23:19:27 http://www.cliki.net/cl-base64 23:19:28 hint hint 23:19:42 ooh, what a give-away 23:19:48 lol 23:20:05 for the library using wussies :) 23:20:25 lispi: or: http://darcs.informatimago.com/lisp/common-lisp/rfc3548.lisp (Hint Hint Hint) 23:20:35 tcr: SBCL/Win32 can't deal with cygwin pathnames natively. 23:20:38 I see no bitvector there... 23:20:52 Real Programmers make their own computers, out of twigs 23:21:21 when there's ants in them, you could call them microcoded 23:21:24 nyef: the pathname business is my single biggest issue with programming on windows 23:21:29 tcr: Largely because cygwin sucks, and SBCL uses mingw instead. 23:21:43 rsynnott: Oh? 23:22:11 oh, yes. Erlang likes them one way, and python another, and anything using cygwin yet another, and so on 23:22:19 Ah. 23:23:09 (behviour if you give the wrong one can vary between just ignoring it, complaining loudly, or, in erlang, crashing and restarting the process, potentially forever) 23:24:02 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 23:25:07 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:25:45 -!- antgreen1 [n=green@CPE001310a5e799-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 23:26:31 well I'm going to leave now 23:26:41 thanks for all the help and sorry for bugging you I promise to be a better student next time :-) 23:26:45 -!- lispi [n=irc@athedsl-4364062.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 23:27:58 tcr: So, no real tricks missed on my end? 23:29:28 I have no idea. I'd have to browse through the relevant code myself, and I think you did the same and I fully trust in your competence at that. :) 23:29:58 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 23:30:27 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-87-237.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:32:41 Fair enough. Thanks. 23:33:08 you could only do the cygwin filename frobbery in slime-to-lisp-filename-function and slime-from-lisp-filename-function only if the current connection belongs to a sbcl-win implementation 23:35:27 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:35:50 and the ~/.swank.lisp could conditionalize on #+sbcl 23:36:32 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-099-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:37:12 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:37:13 And there's an easy way to determine the "current" connection? 23:37:29 search for slime-def-connection-var in slime.el 23:38:08 the things defined are functions, which default to the current connection 23:38:16 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:41 Ah, so I can dispatch on (slime-lisp-implementation-type). 23:41:41 Thank you, that's one trick I -did- miss. 23:44:20 Do you want to dispatch on windows-ness, too? 23:45:23 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-145-2.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 23:45:27 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:48:14 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.193.194] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:50:15 a-s [n=user@92.80.87.22] has joined #lisp 23:50:26 -!- gattobaldo [n=chatzill@94.36.113.36] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:50:39 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:30 -!- saikat [n=saikat@r253170217.resnet.cornell.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:51:52 saikat [n=saikat@r253170217.resnet.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 23:55:12 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:57:32 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp206-128.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]