00:02:04 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 00:03:35 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.188.216] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:07:27 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@35.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 00:08:18 Beware the Gori~~lla~~~! xD 00:09:03 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:09:10 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 00:11:29 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has quit [] 00:11:42 -!- spec[afk] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB"] 00:13:09 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:13:41 -!- kerc [n=riise@65.84-49-151.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:53 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 00:14:20 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit ["leaving"] 00:15:22 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:16:39 dtulig [n=user@cpe-72-179-46-14.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:22:29 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:23:07 tarbo_ [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 00:24:07 tritchey [n=tritchey@64.241.37.140] has joined #lisp 00:29:32 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D83B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:39 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:31:39 totzeit [n=user@dsl102.zipcon.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:15 Sorry if a FAQ, but are there more recent Ubuntu .deb builds of sbcl lying around in a repository somewheres? Ubuntu likes 1.0.18 for some reason. 00:33:23 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 00:33:32 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:11 -!- dtulig [n=user@cpe-72-179-46-14.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:03 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:08 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:38:24 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:53 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:39:47 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:40:07 -!- overdrive [n=user@client-86-0-99-51.nrth.adsl.virgin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:44:08 dtulig [n=user@cpe-72-179-46-14.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:51 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 00:46:13 Just out of interest - what are some of the side-issues of having a defun inside a top-level "let" in a compiled file? Are there some wider eval-when or other exotic cases where this causes problems? What are the thoughts on it from a stylistic standpoint? 00:46:21 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:48:09 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host9-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 00:49:14 hi guys, if you and your friends decided to program a new kick ass 3D action game with nifty graphics and stuff, how long would you be considering lisp as the right tool to go (or anything besides C/C++)? 00:50:35 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:44 don't take me wrong though, I don't mean to start a flame, I'm just curious if there is any chance of doing so 00:51:13 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:15 minion: tell inetic about goal 00:51:16 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``goal''. 00:51:17 I wouldn't, but I've never done anything close to real in lisp 00:51:59 argh. inetic, look around for GOAL. it was what Naughty Dog programmed their games 00:52:15 inetic: it was developed in common lisp 00:52:21 p_l, will do, thanks 00:52:40 also, some MMORPG and similar multiplayer games use CL on server side (or Erlang) 00:53:37 quite many games also included a scheme-like language inside, afaik 00:54:01 Serverside in games, python has become popular 00:54:24 The "you and your friends 3D action game" usually ends prematurely regardless of language :) 00:54:37 Bogged down with twiddling in graphics 00:55:04 inetic: Depending on what platform you use, you might want to check out www.unity3d.com 00:55:14 I've been hearing a lot of good things about it lately 00:55:16 heh. I've got a game idea, but the 3D part of it is actually quite simple.... now, the AI and physics... *shivers* 00:55:22 hmm, I was actually googling for something like the GOAL the other day but couldn't find anything 00:55:40 I've experimented with Lisp/S-expr->C++ code generation and come up with interesting results of what you can do with lisp-language lisp-macros generating C++ equivalent (e.g. a "lambda" macro that can capture and expand outside of the enclosing function to define the class) 00:56:01 With a mega investment maybe you can use lisp expertise to generate tedious but efficient C :) 00:56:07 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:56:36 as for non-3d games, I nearly wrote one last week 00:57:03 -!- karma_ [n=karma@62.140.250.221] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:57:13 is the unity3d programmed in lisp? I'm impressed 00:57:18 (if so) 00:58:00 hmmm, page in flash&js, didn't load... 00:58:22 It isn't, inetic 00:58:43 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:59:26 Modius, with it ending prematurely, I've got the same experience, and not big expectations, but thansk for warning :-) 00:59:27 Unity3D uses Mono/C#. 01:01:05 inetic: I wasn't kidding about the Lisp (macros run in lisp)->C thing either. It ends your "interfacing with the device" issues, and presents certain opportunities for getting rid of tedium if you have a team who's already willing to look at parentheses. 01:02:04 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A76F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:02:48 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:02:50 Modius, if I'm not mistaken, it's clisp implementation which does this 01:02:55 inetic: nope 01:02:55 ? 01:03:22 inetic: clisp is simply a lisp implementation with core written in C running bytecode 01:03:23 -!- kuhzoo1 is now known as kuhzoo 01:03:38 ECL generates C code 01:03:46 inetic: No. And even if it did lisp->C gen, it would not do what I mean as it'd still be runtime lisp 01:03:53 p_l, ah, ok, I got those mixed up 01:04:28 I'm talking about giving up GCed references and do stuff like (let (((* Bar) foo) (new Bar 1 2 3))) (do-something bar))) 01:04:41 I.e. literally having s-exp to C conversion 01:05:04 I made lambdas and type inference for C++ - love to have the time to explore it more. 01:05:16 aha 01:05:37 inetic: But, in actual lisp, you can make lisp compile to fairly C-ish assembly 01:06:16 inetic: But you'd still code differently to get mainstream game performance - big preallocated tagged up arrays, etc (as games still do) 01:07:05 The risk is having to jump thru hoops to interface from your implementation of CL to your platform, and I'm not sure which (free) lisp implementations can make a clean Win32 executable that can do same. 01:07:12 this is what I was wondering about as well, does lisp do some kind of type inference? I haven't noticed any support for it in the language (and read somewhere that it's an NP complete problem) 01:07:19 anyone know what I might be missing for C-c C-d d not to run slime-describe-symbol? 01:07:37 I don't have anything in my .emacs that would change that behavior, or at least I don't think I do 01:08:07 *voidengineer* is a total emacs+slime noob btw 01:08:15 inetic: For runtime lisp itself, type inference isn't really relevant or possible. That said, A: you can type tag, and B: for definite extent variables, I've noticed optimizers making use of the available information. You can answer your own question by getting your lisp implementation, compiling a function then doing (disassemble myfunc) 01:08:28 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:09:11 Modius, that's true 01:09:21 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:09:53 oh, it looks like emacs isn't aware of the fact I have slime running 01:09:57 well, thanks guys for you input again, I certainly have more stuff to think about than I expected 01:10:08 should I be asking slime questions in #emacs? 01:10:25 inetic: type inference is compatible with lisp, it's just that it's not required 01:10:31 Honestly, I think you could type-tag the hell out of some lisp and make it generate game-style C equivalent (prealloced array based). You could use macros and compiler-macros to do what inlining couldn't and make the dev less of a horror. 01:10:35 AFAIK SBCL has type inference engine 01:11:00 But type inference could only optimize within an extent, and have to acknowledge that an accepted or returned type from a function could be anything 01:11:16 and remember not to generage garbage :D 01:11:20 It could only infer within a scope for a value that is generated from known origins internally. 01:12:05 Garbage is why I said "game-style C equivalent" - once you are mostly using up-front typetagged arrays, a good lisp compiler will be basically generating C-equivalent for your activities. 01:12:16 Modius: or faster :P 01:12:30 :-) 01:12:49 p_l: A couple of macros or compiler-macros that autogen what no human would ever write - yeah. 01:12:59 Modius: even without that 01:13:04 myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-188-238.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 01:13:16 (mind you, tests were done on numeric code and some time ago) 01:13:22 abentspoon [n=mfivecoa@pal-163-097.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #lisp 01:13:37 p_l: Hmm - Game-style flat C would be the limit - and lisp would pay a *slight* price for dual-using references (fixnum etc) 01:14:12 C can only really lose a performance test by making the C do something retarded. 01:14:32 Modius: but Lisp has more info which can be used to make optimizations 01:14:36 which means it can gain performance by doing things in smart ways 01:14:44 which people do 01:14:56 p_l: C lets you handcode those optimizations - and by default it isn't type-tagged enough to match the C 01:15:52 With lisp you give it enough info it can guess the memory-memory transfers that are optional - in C you specify the memory-memory transfers. 01:15:57 voidengineer: what happens if you type `C-d d'? 01:16:01 Modius: And handcoding isn't the best thing. Also, with most games done in C++... 01:16:12 rstandy, hold on let me fire up emacs again 01:17:58 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-f9a2d34d87b67d1e] has joined #lisp 01:18:13 it's working now 01:18:25 I had some code commented out in my emacs for some reason 01:18:33 voidengineer: good :-) 01:18:43 yeah ^_^ 01:18:45 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCDF74.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:18:47 ARGH 01:19:01 I think I met a bug in bordeaux-threads or somethings 01:19:17 Or I am using too new CCL 01:21:27 I wonder if anything I'm trying to run will work with clisp... 01:21:31 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@64.241.37.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:00 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:46 arr, it's 2:15 in the morning here, will see you soo, thanks again and good night 01:26:57 dcjackson [n=dcj@166.129.110.240] has joined #lisp 01:28:50 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:32:25 what's a good window manager that won't get in the way of me using emacs? 01:32:33 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:32:40 voidengineer: xmonad? 01:32:52 C-M-x isn't getting passed to emacs by e17 01:33:20 stumpwm, voidengineer 01:33:45 not exactly what... well, just about anyone's used to, though 01:33:49 but you can hack it in lisp! 01:36:18 hmm 01:39:29 rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:38 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-155-159.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:41:25 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-155-159.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:44:33 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:34 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 01:47:21 GoD|Hansel [n=user@cpe-66-65-25-217.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:54 -!- GoD|Hansel [n=user@cpe-66-65-25-217.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 01:48:07 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 01:50:09 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0D29.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:50:21 KalifG [n=user@166.128.162.151] has joined #lisp 01:50:59 -!- asn [n=fafa@gentoo/developer/asn] has quit ["leaving"] 01:53:41 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 01:57:23 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:57:23 kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:08 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:01:35 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:14 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-155-159.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:04:29 stumpwm seems nice 02:04:48 but I need to focus on learning emacs before I getting into the nitty gritty aspects of wm configuration 02:04:58 and I just figured out how to remove all the keybindings in e17 02:10:12 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["bye"] 02:10:25 kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:56 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B589.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:13:10 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:14:50 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:17:57 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-147-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:18:17 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-147-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 02:18:57 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-155-159.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:20:18 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-147-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:23:18 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-23-191-168.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:26:33 -!- abentspoon [n=mfivecoa@pal-163-097.itap.purdue.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:48 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@166.129.110.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:29:21 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B58C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:30:58 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-254-59-172.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:00 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 02:38:49 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:11 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:41:26 manic12 [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:28 Modius: I put defun within outer-level let from time to time, as a way to do a limited encapsulation. I am not particularly comfortable with it stylistically, as it seems that a defclass might be a better way to go. One downside is that if you want to do incremental compile, you get the whole let compiled, which will reset initial values there 02:42:36 ok, so I have (define-key global-map (kbd "") 'slime-selector) in my .emacs. shouldn't hitting f9 bring up the slime-selector with that code in the .emacs? 02:42:40 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:45:18 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:20 hmm works now after running it through M-: 02:45:25 but didn't work in my .emacs 02:46:41 appletizer [i=user@82-45-11-54.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:52:23 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:58:37 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:00:49 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:57 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:56 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250014.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:06 c|mell [n=cmell@y192007.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 03:08:52 yhara_ [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has joined #lisp 03:08:56 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:09:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:09:52 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:31 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 03:13:23 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:16:44 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["bye"] 03:18:45 JJohnson [n=Miranda@199.76.185.175] has joined #lisp 03:18:58 Hello? 03:19:46 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:19:47 ?Hola? 03:20:09 (format t "Hello?") 03:20:25 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:20:40 Hm. 03:21:00 Adios, then. 03:21:26 -!- JJohnson [n=Miranda@199.76.185.175] has quit [Client Quit] 03:21:51 lol 03:22:02 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:43 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:49 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:39:21 Is there a standard way to get a file's length? 03:41:56 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:42:05 Never mind (with-open-file (file path) (file-length file)) 03:46:39 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:54:22 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:51 -!- tetha [n=hk@pD9EE558C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:55:00 tetha [n=hk@pD9EE4D1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:01 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:57:15 -!- wmaikon [n=wmaikon@189.73.75.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:57:57 -!- mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-f9a2d34d87b67d1e] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:58:27 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:36 JJohnson [n=Miranda@199.76.185.175] has joined #lisp 04:03:41 Hello? 04:04:23 I have a very noobish question, but it would be nice if I could have an answer. 04:05:01 Sadly, everyone is asleep. 04:05:04 Oh, well. 04:06:06 -!- JJohnson [n=Miranda@199.76.185.175] has quit [Client Quit] 04:06:44 dang. 04:07:19 lulz 04:07:46 Seriously. I've NEVER been in a technical channel that responded as fast as calling someone on a telephone. 04:08:54 Tough life. 04:09:20 jso: Well, some channels respond nearly as fast... it's just that I have a feeling most of us are asleep... 04:09:43 I mean, it's 0409 for me 04:10:04 What channels would those be? 04:10:32 Even this one manages that, when more people are here 04:10:33 :-) 04:10:50 Yeah. When there is a discussion going one, I could see that happening. 04:11:22 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:04 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:14:38 agnel [n=joel@115.99.2.68] has joined #lisp 04:17:02 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:19:57 -!- nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:20:21 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 04:21:16 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm158.epsilon100.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:21:49 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:23:02 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:23:59 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:24:40 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:28:41 dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro-wifi.clark-communications.com] has joined #lisp 04:32:04 -!- manic12 [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:21 Good morning. 04:37:16 iaindalton [n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:49 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 04:38:52 In A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation, the author's debugger has a command "BKFV" which gives a display of function names and their local variables. Does SBCL have something like that? Apparendly list-locals isn't it. 04:39:58 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.3.64] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:42:35 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:51 Also, am I correct in thinking you can't view the value of a local variable by typing its name, only (sb-debug:arg n) where in is the nth variable of the current function? 04:49:42 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:49:43 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:53:05 nullman [n=nullman@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:39 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:00:04 aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has joined #lisp 05:04:31 someone tell me that writing another web framework for CL isn't a good idea before I commit to it... 05:05:29 <_3b> if you research all the existing ones, and document your reasons for not picking each of them first, it would seem like a reasonable thing to do 05:05:43 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E75A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:05:49 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E75A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:51 _3b: It's more like none of them start for me without crashes on the actual server and I haven't yet committed much time to learn any of them and thus I'm not too well equipped for patching ;P 05:07:42 and I've got this feeling that UCW + some templating stuff and a little more will be all I need for some time :D 05:08:41 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:56 <_3b> from the perspective of someone who isn't you, or paying for your work, having another web framework without any reason to pick it over the existing ones doesn't seem to provide any benefit 05:09:08 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-75-31-250-206.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 05:09:52 -!- nullman` [n=nullman@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:09:57 yeah. good thing no-one is yet paying me for making webapps in lisp... though it would be nice if SBCL started for me 05:10:02 <_3b> if you think you could write one faster than you could make an existing one work, writing a new one for your own use might be reasonable 05:11:14 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 05:12:06 _3b: taking into account that for some time my only possible customers probably wouldn't expect anything over PHP.. 05:13:38 <_3b> my point was more or less that the community doesn't benefit from more fragmentation, unless it comes with more information, but you might... you'd have to decide that for yourself though :) 05:13:50 btw, is anyone running latest hunchentoot on ccl 1.3? 05:14:01 (cause that's where weblocks fail) 05:17:17 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-235-227.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 05:20:52 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:17 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:29:33 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:30:28 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:30:46 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:38:20 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 05:39:23 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-207.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 05:40:32 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 05:51:46 -!- iaindalton [n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has left #lisp 05:54:13 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:57:24 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.128.94] has joined #lisp 05:59:16 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-33-85.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 05:59:26 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:28 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:06:33 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:06:52 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro-wifi.clark-communications.com] has quit [] 06:07:08 -!- vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:08:07 sweet, I love emacs kbd macros! 06:08:40 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:10:02 dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has joined #lisp 06:10:09 voidengineer: yep 06:12:41 vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:13:54 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host12.190-227-32.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:25:34 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B536.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:06 -!- yhara_ [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:34:43 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:35:39 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:37:12 what do I need to do to get my symbols into *completions* like segv has in his video? 06:38:43 wait, nm 06:39:15 wasn't in-package 06:40:22 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 06:42:52 rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:44:45 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 06:44:55 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 06:45:09 Good Morning folks! 06:48:28 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B536.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:27 psyllo [n=psyllo@67-42-127-248.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:50:32 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 06:50:39 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:51:40 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:36 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:57 -!- cipher [n=cipher@pool-71-184-152-81.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:54:33 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:55:02 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:05 cipher [n=cipher@pool-71-184-152-81.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:28 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:47 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:58:56 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:00:41 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.128.94] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:01:47 lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has joined #lisp 07:02:30 yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has joined #lisp 07:03:29 when appending to file opened with :append, why previous contents become 0 ?? 07:05:46 this happen's only with clisp in windows!, is it a bug in clisp?? 07:09:37 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotconsulting.com] has left #lisp 07:11:57 vinleod [n=Vincent_@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:41 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:15:22 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:15:23 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 07:19:43 ge3e3ennnttto0o0 [n=ge3e3enn@189-47-246-217.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 07:19:59 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B31468E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Success] 07:20:28 question- Is the lisp 'append' function considered to be functional? 07:20:46 answer- Yes. 07:21:19 pjb: how?. 07:21:36 How is it not? 07:21:53 What are its side-effects? 07:22:09 pjb: as I see it, the list returned by append shares structure with its input arguments. 07:22:50 So what? 07:22:55 question- should i put a 'question-' in front of the line to ask a question? 07:22:57 i think "functional" is not a good qualifier for anything. append is "side effect free", and if you're considering your version of "functional" to require that, it is "functional" 07:22:57 In what way would that matter in functional code? 07:23:50 agnel: many "functional" languages use structural sharing, and it is the rest of their "functionalnesness" that make this approach work. 07:24:00 answer- you may, but I wouldn't recommend it. 07:24:17 H4ns: thanks, that is the answer I was looking for 07:24:24 pjb: then what is the usual way? 07:24:32 lboard: this one. 07:24:45 lboard: can you stop the meta discussion or move it to some other place? thanks. 07:25:18 Isn't it funny, on the channel of meta programming programming language? :-) 07:25:29 -!- ge3e3ennnttto0o0 [n=ge3e3enn@189-47-246-217.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["Saindo"] 07:26:24 H4ns: enjoy silence, bye 07:28:15 I'm not certain, but I believe I'm having issues with the function SLIME-SETUP which didn't cause me issues before 07:28:24 http://pastebin.ca/1359701 07:28:45 I didn't change anything in my setup, so it's got me stumped, and the error doesn't make sense to me 07:29:19 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:29:26 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 07:29:48 odd, it never had those args before 07:30:19 still doing it 07:30:20 yes, but someone decided to break everyone else's slime by that change. 07:31:36 there we go 07:31:43 sigh 07:31:54 this learning emacs and slime business takes some stamina 07:34:38 Does common lisp have a type system that is different from CLOS? or do all types fall under CLOS? 07:34:51 benny [n=benny@i577A0FED.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:35:00 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:35:18 I feel odd not appending 'question-' infront of my question. :) 07:39:39 -!- kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:39:58 kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 07:41:00 voidengineer: It's worth it. 07:41:13 I know, I'm already so impressed 07:41:35 I used to use vim through a fifo 07:42:01 this setup is so robust it's nuts 07:42:34 What do you mean by robust and setup? 07:42:45 emacs+slime+sbcl 07:42:56 robust == lots of features 07:43:16 and the way it works makes sense 07:43:16 Ah. It's much better that the crappy setup I have using Clojure right now. 07:43:32 what's Clojure? 07:44:03 An FP Lisp1 that runs on the JVM. 07:45:36 how come you're using that? 07:46:40 Because Java opens lots of doors and interop with Java is built in to Clojure. Plus I'm writing a Desktop app and it seems like it'll make sense. 07:46:50 Also because I am curious about it. 07:46:55 ic 07:47:22 I guess it makes sense to go that route when Java is nearly everywhere 07:47:28 weirdo [n=sthalik@c140-24.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:48:17 Allegro Common Lisp has pretty good Java interop. There is also Armed Bear Common Lisp which is CL on the JVM. 07:48:37 Allegro Common Lisp is a licensing nightmare in many cases though. 07:48:43 yeah 07:49:00 you know, I wonder if anyone has used CL for a video game since Mario64 07:49:19 The popular one is Jax and Dax. 07:49:36 crash bandicoot as well iirc 07:49:41 right 07:49:48 but I thought that got rewritten 07:49:52 as usual 07:50:20 Yeah. 07:50:38 There is some game being developed that looks pretty cool. It's 2d solo effort though. 07:50:52 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:51:26 i considered using lisp as a frontend to a game i was going to make, but...not too many people know lisp...so working with others kind of gets rid of that option :? 07:51:34 oh well, there's always python :P 07:51:46 *sigh* 07:52:19 do you guys use paredit.el? 07:52:37 yes, we do 07:52:44 ace4016: I've come to the conclusion that s-expressions and macros are required for it to be my favorite language. 07:52:56 heh 07:53:16 games are hard to do in a typical open-source setting 07:53:21 weirdo, is that what allows one to get parenthesis matching, or is that a built in emacs feature? 07:53:51 since they require creating artwork, modelling etc. 07:54:13 voidengineer, paredit doesn't provide paren matching, it ensures that parentheses are always balanced 07:54:25 as well as provides some features for manipulating s-exps 07:55:01 k, I'm just trying to figure out what part of segv's .emacs is giving him the closing parenthesis 07:55:26 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CAB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:55:35 show-paren-mode maybe? 07:55:44 C-x [? 07:55:58 I gotta check that one now that you ask. 07:56:01 no, he'll type ( and emacs will give him the ) automagically 07:56:12 oh, so that's paredit 07:56:15 C-( 07:56:19 Oh. 07:57:43 mega1 [n=mega@53d8295c.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:58:55 (defun upto (max) 07:58:56 (let ((result nil)) 07:58:56 (dotimes (i max) 07:58:56 (push i result)) 07:58:56 (nreverse result))) 07:59:00 oops I'm sorry 07:59:01 gah 07:59:24 -!- agnel [n=joel@115.99.2.68] has left #lisp 08:00:01 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:02:45 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 08:03:16 hello 08:04:10 Hi MrSpec 08:04:29 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:05:00 voidengineer: That parenthesis thing. Did you figure it out? 08:05:19 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-099-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:34 I'm halfway into getting my .emacs finished 08:05:59 it takes me about 10 times as long as it would you to just go down a line 08:05:59 hahaha 08:06:05 In emacs-lisp-mode and slime you can type M-C-( which will paren around your region. 08:08:57 voidengineer: That's M-( my bad 08:09:23 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:09:26 apropos insert-parentheses 08:09:48 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:04 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-125-224.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:54 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-099-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:12:49 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-099-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:05 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:15:38 Hah! works 08:17:28 voidengineer: Wut 08:18:41 voidengineer pasted "dotemacs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76948 08:22:53 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 08:23:42 I should use paredit. 08:24:05 yeah 08:28:25 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 08:29:33 agnel [n=joel@115.99.2.68] has joined #lisp 08:33:44 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:35:45 http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/emacs/download/mic-paren.el AND http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.el 08:38:14 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:32 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA072.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:37 voidengineer: Yeah. I've set them up already. 08:42:47 Thanks. I went off of your .emacs 08:42:51 I'm not sure if I like mic-paren 08:43:08 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-115-115.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:43:11 Did you download the hyperspec for local use? 08:43:15 yeah 08:43:20 Ok. 08:43:36 psyllo: There's a debian package for it. 08:45:51 add yourself to the cl-users map at http://bit.ly/cl-users 08:48:09 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp206-128.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:50:28 tcr: Cool. I didn't know that. 08:52:50 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192007.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:56:59 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:59:02 adityo: I added myself 08:59:17 I was the first in Salt Lake City Utah ;P 08:59:28 I know very well there are plenty of Lispers here. 09:01:32 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-17-254.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:02:37 I took HTTP server + CGI benchmark. (I posted this here yesterday.) http://paste.lisp.org/display/76905 09:02:57 The development of mod_lisp stopped long time ago? 09:04:17 tomoyuki28jp: yes, it is basically dead. 09:04:43 H4ns: I see, thanks for the info. 09:05:08 hunchentoot really that slow? 09:05:53 So my conclusion is apache + mod_proxy + hunchentoot is the fastest combination. Do you guys agree with this? 09:06:27 tomoyuki28jp: yes, hunchentoot and a high-performance frontend is the combination that i use and recommend. 09:06:30 Fufie [n=poff@34.80-203-160.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:06:47 -!- Fufie [n=poff@34.80-203-160.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:06:49 tomoyuki28jp: i run hunchentoot single-threaded behind squid, which improves performance a lot. 09:06:57 Fufie [n=poff@34.80-203-160.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:07:24 c|mell [n=cmell@x250012.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 09:07:51 H4ns: I have never heard squid. Is that faster than apache? 09:08:21 squid is a caching proxy 09:08:35 tomoyuki28jp: it is a caching proxy, and the caching is what made me chose it. i only generate dynamic content if required, otherwise it is served from squid's cache. 09:08:54 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:57 H4ns: how does single-threadedness help here? I thought hunchentoot couldn't run non-MT at all 09:09:20 workthrick: why did you think so? 09:09:36 -!- _death [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:09:40 workthrick: my handlers never wait for the disk or other slow devices, so threading only adds overhead for me. 09:09:59 I remember problems with running HT on some single-threaded lisp implementation in the past 09:10:11 H4ns: aha 09:10:52 psyllo, how did you add yourself? 09:10:57 tomoyuki28jp: http://netzhansa.blogspot.com/2008/07/building-load-resilient-web-servers.html might be of interest to you 09:11:12 H4ns: so you pool the incoming connections, and serve them next soon as you're done with the previous one? 09:11:39 H4ns: your handlers never wait for the network either? 09:11:45 workthrick: if you run hunchentoot in a single threaded lisp, you'll not have a repl as long as it runs. i run it in a separate thread, but i don't create a new thread for processing incoming requests. 09:11:49 mega1: affirmative. 09:12:29 H4ns: I see. What is it you serve then, that you don't ever have to wait? 09:12:54 workthrick: i keep all my data in main memory. 09:13:03 _death [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 09:13:03 H4ns: Thanks for the interesting web page. I will take a look at it. 09:13:44 H4ns: do you use memcache for that? 09:14:10 workthrick: no, i use the bknr datastore, which is a clos based implementation of prevalence. 09:14:29 I see 09:14:32 H4ns: do you use non-blocking sockets? 09:14:49 workthrick: not using a sql database in the first place saves me from all the troubles of creating a multi-layer storage hierarchy. 09:15:03 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:19 mega1: no. all my handlers have short response times. there is zero concurrency serving http requests. 09:15:24 I'm planning to go with an RDBMS (due to not having to implement querying myself in this case), and thus would rather use memcache or similar 09:15:42 http://createrainforest.org/handler-statistics 09:15:47 H4ns: multi-layer as in replication and load-balancing? 09:16:01 workthrick: as in replication, memcached etc. 09:16:05 H4ns: but then, I don't see how you can be sure that network conditions, buffers don't block the single thread. 09:16:26 mega1: i decouple the network from my backend using squid 09:16:33 /overview IMAGE-TILE-HANDLER 20419 31.6 6541.0 5.0 09:16:35 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:16:41 that's a pretty huge MAX 09:16:56 psyllo: cool 09:17:05 *workthrick* ignores the obvious lack of grammar in "pretty huge" 09:17:08 workthrick: that's right. calculating the top-level tile takes quite some time, but it is rarely done. 09:17:34 workthrick: i'm a strong believer in optimization for solving problems. 09:17:43 that's true 09:18:09 common guys we need more people.please add yourself to the cl-users map at http://bit.ly/cl-users 09:18:44 H4ns: tee hee. I just notice that Holzbau Würzburg left a comment on your post about the rainforest website 09:18:45 H4ns: for pretty much the same reason I chose to go with an RDBMS :). I don't have to implement queries myself, and I can always optimise it if it turns out to be slow somewhere 09:18:49 this amuses me quite a bit (: 09:19:10 (I believe they could be seo spammers, though) 09:19:31 H4ns: cool, you have a Danish version of the site 09:19:53 workthrick: yeah, loose all performance upfront, then spend your precious time optimizing the storage hierarchy rather than working on application code. a well-known and common approach. 09:20:40 antifuchs: gee, i've never clicked there, but you could be right about the seo thing :) 09:21:02 oh strangly no one from bangalore, I'll be the first :) 09:21:03 adityo: how can we add a pin there? 09:21:24 H4ns: I don't have *any* performance problems yet. So I didn't lose anything. And I'm not using a raw SQL approach, so I can swap it out with something based on a custom store without touching much of the logic if it turns out to be a huge bottleneck 09:21:41 ArchGh0ul [n=goblin@mail.skepsis.ro] has joined #lisp 09:21:54 Mornin' my fellow brothers in Lisp :) 09:21:59 matimago: funny it took me a while to figure it out too! 09:22:12 The evilness of google! 09:22:13 workthrick: go ahead. the beauty of the sql approach is that a lot of people know how to help out. 09:22:20 indeed 09:22:32 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:22:38 matimago: if you have a gmail account, just login , then you shall see a 'edit' tab 09:22:42 -!- psyllo [n=psyllo@67-42-127-248.slkc.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:22:57 I've got a google account, but not gmail. 09:23:20 if you have it you have Gmail too afaik 09:23:22 I've considered custom stores too. But the amount of amassed experience and the ability to use common tools and interoperability won this round, even if RDBMS are uniformly mediocre 09:23:32 ArchGh0ul: they're behaving like Microsoft... 09:23:39 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:23:50 hehe...corporations tend to do that 09:23:57 No, there's this Edit button. 09:23:59 Sadly Google has become one too 09:24:03 matimago: that should work..after you have clicked on edit.. you shall see new icons on the map..simply drag the pin to your location then 09:24:06 as I said, if I don't screw up too badly, switching to a custom store should be entirely doable without completely butchering the code sitting above 09:24:29 got to lists in the "Practical Common Lisp" 09:24:34 that's one good book 09:24:38 Yes. Added and saved! 09:24:49 cool 09:25:49 So, what happened to the flick lisper map? 09:26:41 dunno about the flickr lisper map 09:27:07 how can i "put a pin on the map"? 09:27:08 hmm I would have guessed more lispers would be in WA 09:27:43 H4ns: login google, Click on the Edit button on the right side of the left pane. Click on the blue drop in the bottom at the top of the map. 09:27:58 voidengineer: more are, Not everybody plays google. 09:28:44 matimago: i'm signed in, i clicked edit, but i fail to see the "blue drop" 09:28:56 it's in the upper left corner 09:29:04 H4ns: a toolbar above the map appears 09:29:10 I shall get more guys to add themselves from bangalore. :) 09:30:01 Perhaps it wasn't flickr. Two years ago there was something else with this kind of maps where you could add yourself, and we already did a lisp map there... 09:30:20 i think there also was a google maps lisper map 09:30:34 angel: you didnt add your name..its juts placemark64 09:30:44 *just 09:30:48 lol 09:30:50 *H4ns* tries a different browser, chrome does not seem to be good enough. 09:31:28 ah?! 09:32:06 adityo: no I did, you should refresh 09:32:13 matimago: wasn't that another google maps mashup? 09:33:30 agnel: cool i refreshed ..reading your blog 09:35:07 sdswdsd [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:35:37 -!- sdswdsd is now known as dto-3 09:35:43 i think it was this one, but it's become kind of ugly: http://www.frappr.com/lisp 09:35:45 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:35:49 -!- dto-3 is now known as dto 09:36:03 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-099-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:36:27 adityo: cool :) 09:36:34 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:37:28 oh good grief 09:37:32 I'm on that one already 09:39:26 right, it was called frappr 09:39:43 hmm amazon.com uses lisp 09:40:04 oh God, did it ever got ugly 09:41:14 voidengineer: For small values of "uses". 09:48:21 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 09:48:58 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9F17.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:49:14 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA072.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:49:16 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 09:50:04 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2F39B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:27 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-17-254.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:57:50 sweet, maybe I'll keep mic-paren 09:58:36 you can delay it by editing PAREN-DELAY 09:59:34 what's mic-paren? 09:59:53 highlights matching parenthesis' 10:00:07 http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/emacs/download/mic-paren.el 10:00:23 works in LaTeX as well 10:00:48 s/in/with 10:03:23 H4ns: Yes, it was that frappr. What kind of domain name is that? Anyways, indeed it became useless, needing flash and full of ads. 10:04:05 matimago: "all our business ideas for this web2.0 srvice failed, now we're into ads" 10:04:43 matimago: good thing that we're not used to advertise for porn....erm, are we not? 10:05:27 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F094.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 10:05:30 maybe they're advertising for websites that advertise for websites that advertise for porn 10:05:40 antifuchs: schweinerei! 10:05:52 we're being used to advertise porn to the nth degree (: 10:05:59 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:11 or kevin bacon to the 6th (: 10:06:12 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 10:06:45 good morning 10:08:13 antifuchs: I hope those higher-order ads are for higher-order porn 10:09:05 lol 10:09:34 -!- yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:09:42 ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has joined #lisp 10:10:30 <_8david> perhaps its developers run adblock like almost everyone else, and don't realize they have ads there 10:12:22 problem is, it's ugly even with an ad blocker (: 10:12:32 it's like those kazaa developers who refused to install kazaa on their machines :) 10:13:30 what do you guys think about OpenCL GPGPU and CUDA? 10:13:42 ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:56 voidengineer: I don't think about it at all :] 10:14:00 will there ever be an interface that works on ATI cards and Nvidia ? 10:14:17 well, I think it'd be spiffy to write ffi bindings to one of them 10:14:28 <_3b> thats the point of opencl 10:14:48 that's what I thought, but didn't know how mature it is 10:15:22 <_3b> it has a spec, haven't heard of any progress beyond that yet 10:15:34 *_3b* would probably target cuda directly though 10:16:05 hmm, nvidia eh? 10:16:33 _3b: why's that? 10:16:56 <_3b> lower level language mainly 10:17:06 and that's a good thing why? 10:17:19 already have python, fortran (lol), and java wrappers 10:17:27 <_3b> compiling to high level languages justs seems odd :) 10:17:30 -!- mr_uggla [i=mzsillan@sbz-31.cs.helsinki.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:17:33 yeah 10:18:05 *workthrick* throws parenscript at _3b 10:18:15 might be cool to abstract away gpgpu and cuda with ffi bindings to both 10:18:26 umm 10:18:45 _3b: Apple's Snow Leopard claims to support opencl 10:18:51 I mean, write ffi to each one then create some cool abstraction to distribute code on either or 10:19:02 <_3b> schme: is it released? 10:19:05 I was under impression that CUDA doesn't have anything to "ffi". It has a compiler, but not an ABI 10:19:09 _3b: I have no idea. (: 10:19:15 workthrick, yeah I think you're right 10:19:18 Open64 10:19:20 <_3b> workthrick: it has libraries to load the code 10:19:35 <_3b> and to interact with card memory etc 10:19:59 _3b: Oh it is not released it seems. 10:20:22 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit ["leaving"] 10:20:35 <_3b> i'd expect nv and maybe ati to have drivers soon, just haven't heard any details on what 'soon' is 10:20:49 <_3b> haven't been watching closely though 10:20:49 That's quite right. You don't FFI.. you compile code for the GPU and send it + data to the GPU, and run it. 10:21:02 <_3b> you need the FFI for the send and run parts though 10:21:16 True true. 10:21:22 <_3b> and possibly the compile part if you are lucky 10:21:34 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:21:43 hmm I don't know why I thought I could send it x86 code 10:21:45 <_3b> having to run a separate app to recompile things would be annoying 10:21:53 Maybe they will all be nice and give us open specs for how to hardcode the fuckers ;) 10:21:55 lol, it's late, yeah, that's my excuse 10:22:50 <_3b> think i've seen some stuff about someone reverse engineering cuda stuff to allow compiling to even lower level than they expose in cuda, dunno how far that got (or if i remember correctly even) 10:22:51 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #lisp 10:22:52 Well I guess one still would FFI to actually call the functions in the GPU. 10:23:22 but you'd need a compiler that speaks gpu 10:23:41 Normally you'd compile that part seperate ;) 10:23:45 right 10:24:03 <_3b> normal is bad for you, i want interactive compilation :) 10:24:14 Yees yes indeed. 10:24:38 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:25:03 ah well. I need to get back to code it seems (: Time is running out! hurry hurry! 10:25:07 there are python cuda bindings 10:25:40 also fortran ones. 10:25:41 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:26:01 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:26:04 nvidia nicely provides those (: 10:26:31 *workthrick* thinks that compiling to a below-CUDA level would be massively annoying 10:26:49 Me too. 10:27:02 the "reverse-engineering GPU drivers" kinda fun 10:28:15 <_3b> dunno, no more annoying than compiling to any other hardware level target probably 10:28:32 I see no real gain from it. 10:28:36 <_3b> probably more effort than it is worth though 10:28:55 Yes, that is where I'm at. I guess it would be fun (: 10:29:03 <_3b> unless you have a huge amount of calculations and enough resources to stay ahead of hardware development 10:29:42 <_3b> most people would probably be better off spending the money on more hardware 10:30:04 yep 10:30:56 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 10:31:09 "for fun" 10:34:23 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A63A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:36:29 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["leaving"] 10:36:33 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-159.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:36:42 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 10:39:37 __death [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 10:42:23 dv___ [n=dv@85-127-205-29.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:42:23 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-254-59-172.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:42:44 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:43:43 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:44:19 prxq [n=mommer@Xdfde.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 10:45:03 _3b, I'm currently implementing stuff on Cuda, Brook+ (ATI) and the Cell Processor. 10:45:42 what stuff? Pi calculations? 10:45:49 Graph algorithms 10:47:10 As far as I understood it (didn't really need to dive so deep into it), the ATI GPU stuff is mostly built to allow runtime compilation of GPU code. 10:47:53 Plus, there are a few people on both the ATI and NVidia forums who optimize their code on assembler level. 10:47:55 which of these three is best suited for integer factorization? 10:48:24 stassats: stealing government secrets, eh? 10:48:25 -!- vinleod [n=Vincent_@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 10:48:32 That's the kind of question I can't answer without knowing how easy integer factorization is parallelizable. 10:48:34 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-115-115.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:49:28 The hard part about the GPUs is that the parallelization is almost only possible in a data-parallelism way. 10:50:23 ATI's Brook+ is very explicit about this, actually you can't do much more with it. 10:51:07 And it's unfortunately very poorly documented and also a bit slow (memory management bug in the runtime). 10:51:41 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-254-61-133.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:29 With Cuda, you get to play with pointers, which can get confusing from time to time (you need to keep track whether they're valid in your process memory or in the GPU memory) 10:52:33 -!- _death [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:52:40 -!- __death is now known as _death 10:52:48 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:53:09 That allows for more low level optimizations, which, unfortunately you actually have to do to get your code running fast. 10:53:27 guenther__: what is the expected lifetime of the code written for those chips? Next generation and you have to start over or does it actually last? 10:54:00 <_3b> the available APIs are higher level, so newer generation chips shoudl run old code faster than previous generations 10:54:01 Not too long. 10:54:02 ljosa [n=ljosa@c-76-119-125-184.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:26 <_3b> might need changes to get full performance out of the newer hardware though 10:54:55 <_3b> (at least that's the theory, i haven't used the GPGPU apis seriously yet) 10:56:07 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483F189.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:17 The problem with the current languages is that you really just get to choose between a) high abstractions a la Brook+, which unfortunately didn't give me good results yet, or b) the nitty-gritty details of processor design, meaning that you need to be aware of how memory accesses have to be coordinated to be fast, how many threads run on how many processors and the like (a la Cuda) 10:56:26 -!- lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:57:06 <_3b> you forgot c) write your own compiling to a or b :p 10:57:07 So, for instance, if I was to port my MST-calculating code to a newer Cuda chip, what I'd have to do would be: 10:58:23 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:58:36 * Fiddle with the parameters to get better results with the new number of processors, threads-per-processor or whatever they invented (this is just changing number parameters, so you can do it by trial and error and making systematic measurements) 10:59:55 * Check which new memory access patters for the threads running on a single chip count as "coalesced" and try to change the algorithm to make better use of them. 11:00:00 (This can get tricky) 11:00:51 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:01:20 However, as you can see, it involves at least some serious playing around and recompiling, and the memory access patterns part is actually probably very hard if you try to build a compiler that does it. 11:01:56 -!- bob_f [n=bob@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:02:15 guenther__: do you work on a comercial app? 11:02:26 No, it's a student thesis. 11:03:00 I just play with distributed graph algorithms on these hardwares and compare them. 11:03:37 I have implemented a distributed prim-mst algorithm on Cuda, Brook and the Cell Processor. 11:03:44 I see. 11:03:57 Let me just conclude before I go to lunch in two minutes. :-) 11:04:08 The Cell Processor delivers *by far* the best performance. 11:04:11 guenther__: are you going to give us a common lisp cuda connection? (better even cl-opencl) 11:04:31 I'm not really good at writing common lisp. :-) 11:04:41 I'm off to lunch. 11:04:43 See you 11:08:47 _cosmonaut_ [n=sanya@tiger.mirohost.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:51 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d8295c.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:10:46 guenther__: can you rule out that a small modification of your code for the others might make them perform better than the code on the Cell? 11:11:48 and what if you had FireStream directly on CPU, thus removing I/O bottleneck? 11:12:00 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E75A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:12:33 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:16:16 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-33-85.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:16:38 mega1 [n=mega@53d8295c.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:18:30 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:18:48 kiuma [n=kiuma@host75-233-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:18:56 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:19:24 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:35 -!- ljosa [n=ljosa@c-76-119-125-184.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:21:57 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:21:59 -!- _8david [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:22:25 saikat_ [n=saikat@adsl-99-19-51-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:14 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.162.151] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:23:24 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:24:18 ejs [n=eugen@212-178-18-26.broadband.tenet.odessa.ua] has joined #lisp 11:24:40 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:26:48 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["I'm off!"] 11:26:55 bbe [n=bbe@121.229.105.181] has joined #lisp 11:30:24 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:33:31 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-254-61-133.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:35:37 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:35:56 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:41:47 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:46:08 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:18 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:48:19 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:44 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:49:45 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:02 prxq: On Brook, I commented out my GPU-based algorithm completely, only leaving the memory transactions, and it was still way slower than the CPU. :( 11:56:39 Plus, on the cell, bus bandwidth is really not an issue. Most of the algorithm's time to run comes from passing messages between processors currently. 11:57:35 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 11:57:52 So, from the measurements, the algorithm looks like O(N), while it's actually O(N^2)... :-) 11:58:20 -!- ejs [n=eugen@212-178-18-26.broadband.tenet.odessa.ua] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:58:31 (Those inter-thread communications only happen O(N) times.) 11:58:46 nooper [i=nooper@2001:41c8:0:866:21c:c0ff:fe7f:7198] has joined #lisp 11:58:52 guenther__: that's why it would be interesting to compare it with future amd offerings, assuming intel doesn't shot them down 12:00:29 What future AMD offerings do you mean? Are they doing something about the memory transfer bandwidth? 12:01:04 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:01:06 guenther__: they are placing a FireStream Core directly on CPU 12:01:43 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 12:01:45 so, depending on how one would count cores, you'd have >60 core desktop cpus ;-) 12:02:35 -!- aquagnu [n=aquagnu@85.118.228.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:03:14 Sounds like this could help, yes. :-) 12:03:29 If the on-chip bus provides enough bandwidth. 12:04:12 Sounds very similar to the Cell. 12:04:53 Is there an official source to this information that i can quote in the outlook section of my thesis? 12:05:02 I thought AMD was going the way of the dodo 12:10:19 -!- dv___ [n=dv@85-127-205-29.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 12:11:22 guenther__: search for AMD Fusion, there's not much official data on it 12:11:43 prxq: I hope not 12:11:59 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.3.64] has joined #lisp 12:14:40 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:15:07 p_l, thanks for the pointer, that really sounds interesting :-) 12:15:29 guenther__: what are you writing on? 12:15:59 Comparing graph algorithm performance on multicore processors (an ATI card, and Nvidia card and the cell processor) 12:16:32 no numa? 12:17:51 No, those three architectures are enough to work on for a thesis of three to four months :-) 12:18:05 :-) 12:18:10 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.128.94] has joined #lisp 12:18:25 Pity that EV8 Tarantula never got released, it might have been an interesting one 12:19:21 adityo_ [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 12:19:34 Gotta do some writing now, so that I have done sth today. :-) 12:19:36 See you 12:19:40 cya 12:20:37 -!- prxq [n=mommer@Xdfde.x.pppool.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:23:25 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:25:54 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:03 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:43 Oh for crying out lound it can't be THIS hard to get an CLisp xlib environment running :( 12:30:14 bugging me for hours. finally got clx compiled and it said no XLIB. got that working (I think) and now the demos don't work 12:30:38 doesn't clisp come with its own clx? 12:30:59 ArchGh0ul: what distribution are you on? 12:31:10 archlinux 12:31:12 stassats: you can turn it off at compilation-time, I think 12:31:21 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:31:22 1) install sbcl through distro 2) install clbuild 3) clbuild install clx 4) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :clx) <--- can't be more complicated... 12:31:30 ArchGh0ul: ^ well, what I saud to stassats is for you too 12:31:45 madnificent: why one would want to? 12:31:49 clisp comes with TWO clx 12:31:56 (and I run with Arch too) 12:32:11 stassats: because the OS may default it to 'no clx'... for what reason, I don't know 12:32:40 ArchGh0ul: what p_l said is probably the easiest to get it running 12:32:46 p_l then you might be my best chance 12:32:54 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 12:32:56 p_l: where did you get clbuild? 12:32:59 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:33:02 I can;t find it 12:33:04 minion: clbuild? 12:33:05 clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 12:33:07 with either yaourt or pacman 12:33:38 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:33:51 ArchGh0ul: You have to install clbuild yourself 12:33:59 I will now thanks 12:34:02 hope this works 12:34:06 basically, it's because distro packaging of CL stuff fails greatly 12:34:30 (haskell has similar problem, except they have less implementations to take care) 12:34:43 p_l: you should make a PKBUILD for clbuild 12:34:57 haskell was way easier to install (the xlib stuff) 12:35:14 (I am a previous xmonad user) 12:35:23 p_l: I've been wondering about a solution for that for ages now... it surprises me that the modern package managers don't support plugins 12:35:50 ArchGh0ul: you're moving to stumpwm? 12:36:15 my last wm was ratpoison so that could be a good switch :) 12:36:20 but I like evilwm too much :( 12:36:31 I use dwm for tiling 12:36:43 ArchGh0ul: extend stumpwm for more fun :D 12:36:54 does it have tiling yet? 12:36:58 last time I used it it didn't 12:37:01 floating 12:37:02 sorry 12:37:07 not tiling :) 12:37:42 ArchGh0ul: I saw something about it, but I haven't tried it and am not sure it is actually in there 12:38:03 tilers without any kind of floating are not cool at all 12:38:11 there are some apps that really need to be floating 12:38:20 one of the main reasonrs I left ratpoison 12:38:22 resons* 12:38:33 stumpwm has floating groups 12:38:44 http://blog.pindundin.de/2008/11/03/stumpwm-finally-floating/ 12:38:55 tic: how do you use them? link? 12:39:38 I use them for e.g. gimp 12:39:43 p_l: where do I put "(asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :clx)" ? 12:39:48 sorry really new to Lisp... 12:40:08 tic: *how* ? I'm in stumpwm now, so I'd really like to give it a run 12:40:53 madnificent, you create a new floating group. 12:41:11 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:41:20 prefix g to find out the commands for the groups command. 12:41:39 gnew-float 12:42:26 tic: ah, there is no standard-binding for gnew-float :) 12:42:52 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:43:01 ArchGh0ul: into the REPL 12:43:19 madnificent, doesn't seem so, no. maybe gN would be appropriate? 12:43:40 stassats: I have to do that everytime? 12:43:51 isn't there an init file somwhere? 12:44:01 tic: yes, that would be nice (also, it would be nice to have some standard commands to resize windows etc) 12:44:30 madnificent, there is a standard command to resize a frame, r -> hjkl -> enter 12:44:50 I get componet "clx" not found :( 12:45:07 ArchGh0ul: there should be 12:45:09 madnificen, see http://mikael.jansson.be/journal/2008/08/trying-out-stumpwm 12:45:24 tic: not for floating windows, apparantly 12:45:47 madnificent, I see. Yeah, it'd probably be nice. Dunno, I use the mouse for such apps. 12:45:51 (I am not a stumpwm dev) 12:45:55 tic: I've been using stumpwm for 'normal' use for some time, so the basic use is okay :) 12:46:10 tic: it doesn't seem to resize when I click the side 12:46:19 madnificent, oh bummer. :| 12:46:35 I did what p_l said and still no clx...I'm going mad! I can't start learning Lisp if I can't code xlib stuff 12:46:52 tic: it just does that on your stumpwm? 12:47:10 madnificent, does resizing? can't remember. I run an older version on this computer. 12:48:11 ArchGh0ul: how did you start sbcl? 12:48:15 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.128.94] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:49:35 tic: ah well, thanks for pointing me to the creation of floating groups 12:49:45 a bit sad that the whole group has to be floating 12:49:49 yeah 12:49:50 but very nice when needed 12:50:08 <_death> ArchGh0ul: do you have clx? do you have a link to the .asd file(s) in (say) ~/.sbcl/systems ? 12:50:54 ArchGh0ul was advised to use clbuild 12:51:05 advised yesterday, actually 12:51:41 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:51:54 I used clbuild to install it 12:52:21 and I have clx.asd in the clbuild dir/systems 12:52:36 ./clbuild lisp and (require :clx) 12:53:21 it started compiling stuff 12:53:54 I get the feeling that the clx.asd is not found so I probably need to copy it to /usr/share/common-lisp/systems ?! 12:54:11 lichtblau [n=user@wallstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 12:54:14 you just said that it started compiling? 12:54:20 ArchGh0ul: do you have a repl? (lisp prompt) 12:54:42 stassats: I did ./clbuild lisp and it droped me to the sbcl prompt 12:54:53 in there I did (require :clx) and it started compiling stuff 12:54:59 sounds like it's working to me 12:55:13 hi..anyone heard of or tried UCL-GLORP (ORM framework/library for common lisp)..? i saw it mentioned via a Planet Lisp posting just now 12:55:14 ok, where did you get your feeling? 12:55:14 I am lost 12:55:28 so which REPL do I use? do I start clisp or sbcl?! 12:55:35 sbcl 12:55:57 I have a hello world. do I just sbcl hello.lisp ? 12:56:37 ./clbuild lisp --load hello.lisp 12:57:00 ArchGh0ul: or you can do (load "/path/to/hello.lisp") in your repl 12:57:09 I did this latter one 12:57:14 or you can use Slime 12:57:15 and it loaded it correctly 12:57:20 I use emacs + slime 12:57:24 ArchGh0ul: if you'd prefer to use slime, you can run clbuild slime 12:57:41 ejs [n=eugen@79.140.10.226] has joined #lisp 12:58:06 ok I loaded hello-world.lisp 12:58:13 (hello-world) said the function is not defined 12:58:18 but it is there :(\ 12:58:42 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:58:51 ArchGh0ul: in what package is hello-world defined? 12:59:14 it's not a package. it's just some source I found 12:59:27 ArchGh0ul: link me to the source 13:00:00 *dlowe* has noticed that C programmers always try to skip to the part where you load a file, it's compiled, and then you execute it 13:00:28 yuck, C 13:00:38 *dlowe* likes C. 13:00:47 I don;t see why C is so bad? 13:00:56 ahm, is planet.lisp.org only screwed up on my system? 13:01:01 atleast all I have to do there is write my stuff then gcc bla.c -o bla -LX11 13:01:04 *stassats* doesn't like C but has nothing better 13:01:09 ArchGh0ul: I don't like the cluttered syntax (but don't mind me) 13:01:23 ArchGh0ul: And then libtool comes and fucks your libraries ;P 13:01:24 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:28 ArchGh0ul: in any case, have you found the link yet? 13:01:34 I learned basic C in 2 days. Took me 2 to get clx installed..and still doesn't work 13:01:35 ArchGh0ul: mostly because its model of data is a flat block of integers 13:01:38 not giving up though 13:01:53 ArchGh0ul: and libX is basic C? 13:02:01 er, libXlib 13:02:05 a simple window is yes 13:02:10 ArchGh0ul: perhaps you're learning much more with lisp, then with C (I know I learned way more in lisp than in any other language I know) 13:02:17 I like Lisp 13:02:30 all I wish is for it to be easier to start developing instead of spending 2 days installing :( 13:02:36 ArchGh0ul: could you please upload the hello-world.lisp somewhere?! (I can't help you without it) 13:02:38 http://pastie.org/415156 13:02:43 source I am trying to run ^^ 13:02:59 ArchGh0ul: as I recall, you were resisting most of the advice given to you yesterday 13:03:06 not true 13:03:09 I got PCL :) 13:03:15 reading it right now 13:03:19 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-116.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:03:25 I tried what you guys said yesterday and it didn't work 13:03:36 except clbuild ..that's true but it was like 1 in the morning 13:03:56 You have to understand this is REALLY new and weird for me 13:04:05 try to do this ./clbuild slime and then (require :clx) (load "/path/to/hello-world.lisp") (hello-world) it must have skipped the loading of hello-world 13:04:08 you already know this stuff. but I need to be spoonfed lol 13:04:09 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:16 and you want to learn it in two days? 13:04:22 no 13:04:23 ArchGh0ul: I still remember the pain when going through learning lisp ^_^ 13:04:26 I want to be able to use xlib in 2 days 13:04:36 not learn it 13:04:37 ArchGh0ul: never got so exhausted by simply reading stuff 13:05:00 I already have slime +sbcl working 13:05:08 is the ./clbuild slime necessary? 13:05:10 ArchGh0ul: allso, it really is advisable to learn lisp itself, as it can take some time 13:05:22 cat /home/lnostdal/programming/lisp/hello.lisp --> (defun hello-world () (write-line "hello world")) .. CL-USER> (load "/home/lnostdal/programming/lisp/hello.lisp") .. CL-USER> (hello-world) --> "hello world!" 13:05:27 ArchGh0ul: that will launch a slime that is able to load the libraries from clbuild (afaik) 13:05:50 I am starting to learn lisp. REading Practical Common Lisp 13:06:02 But I can;t keep reading if I now I might not be able to develop X stuff 13:06:06 know* 13:06:21 you will be, don't worry 13:06:27 ArchGh0ul: just giving you my experience, not pointing out that you're doing something wrong :) 13:06:51 ok can't open /bla/clbuild/source/slime/slime 13:06:58 on ./clbuild slime 13:07:09 clbuild install slime 13:07:27 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@216-177-194.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has left #lisp 13:07:53 this clbuild seems really cool. no actual errors on building..that's a first for me lol 13:07:56 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:08:46 ArchGh0ul: Good for you that you start with people pointing out clbuild for you from the start :) 13:09:17 -!- ejs [n=eugen@79.140.10.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:09:38 ejs [n=eugen@79.140.10.226] has joined #lisp 13:09:38 *dlowe* doesn't use clbuild, but he's a masochist. 13:09:54 dlowe: But you probably don't use asdf-install, right? :D 13:10:00 yay got REPL :) 13:10:33 p_l: Only on things I don't care much about or with too many dependencies 13:12:11 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-116.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:12:16 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-116.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:13:30 since clbuild seems to work I might remove EVERY lisp thing I installed and do a fresh install. 13:13:34 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.128.94] has joined #lisp 13:13:35 Once I get clx working that is 13:14:00 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@93-40-115-226.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:14:55 hello 13:15:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@79.140.10.226] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:16:26 if your clbuild is recent enough, you can set up a project like this: 13:16:34 ./clbuild make-project hello-world # creates source/hello-world/* 13:16:43 lichtblau: Oooo shiny! 13:16:45 ./source/hello-world/hello-world.sh # see if it works 13:17:25 photon_ [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 13:17:31 Then edit source/hello-world/hello-world.asd and add depends-on for CLX. Next time you try the shell script, you should see CLX getting loaded. 13:17:34 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:17:49 Finally put your clx-using code into the main function in source/hello-world/hello-world.lisp. 13:18:10 lichtblau: please write a tutorial about cl-build (or screencasts!) 13:18:11 Of course, the shell script is just an example. I'd actually recommend working in slime. 13:18:11 ok after ./clbuild slime I got the sbcl REPL 13:18:18 (require :clx) returned NIL 13:18:24 I supose that's ok?! 13:18:32 ArchGh0ul: now (load "/your/example/file.lisp") 13:19:07 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:19:15 -!- photon_ is now known as photon 13:19:21 twitter1 [n=user@124.124.233.5] has joined #lisp 13:19:23 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 13:19:33 Hi all. 13:20:11 hello twitter1 13:20:13 YAY!!! got hello world working whoohoo! 13:20:25 I has a sniny new window on screen :) 13:20:28 shiny* 13:20:37 congratz ;) 13:20:38 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["HULK ANGRY! HULK DISCONNECT!"] 13:21:05 ./clbuild slime complained about slime and swank differing in versions 13:21:11 is that something to worry about? 13:21:26 ArchGh0ul: as you could use it, it seems to have worked 13:21:39 yeh 13:21:50 I was thinking of removing everything apart from clbuild 13:21:55 and do a fresh dev environ 13:22:00 that's definitely something to worry about. You're probably mixing the slime installed using clbuild and a different version of slime. 13:22:04 I installed clx and clx-new like 10 times :( 13:22:10 yes 13:22:23 ArchGh0ul: That's what I do, keeping only a system-install of sbcl to keep everything running in case I have to rebuild from scratch 13:22:44 one thing though: can I make that (require :clx) run everytime I run emacs + slime? 13:22:54 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:22:54 I don;t want to type everytime I load a .lisp 13:23:02 well everytime I start the REPL anyway 13:23:10 you can build a custom core 13:23:28 ArchGh0ul: you can also set up a .sbclrc in your home directory 13:23:34 oh cool 13:23:40 I am new to Lisp. I installed SBCL. I then downloaded montezuma source code (http://code.google.com/p/montezuma/). There was a make-release.sh file there that I executed. Now in the directory, there is a montezuma.asd file. What do I have to do with this file in order to install montezuma. 13:23:49 H4ns: will clbuild pick it up? 13:24:05 ejs [n=eugen@79-140-2-152.broadband.tenet.odessa.ua] has joined #lisp 13:24:06 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit ["leaving"] 13:24:09 stassats: i don't know. i don't use clbuild. would be kind of silly if it did not, though. 13:24:33 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 13:24:35 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:24:37 actually clbuild doesn't load .sbclrc by default. you need to edit clbuild.conf to change that. 13:24:42 eek. 13:24:46 ArchGh0ul: never mind me. 13:24:52 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:25:16 so...I'm left with typing that everytime? 13:25:17 If we loaded .sbclrc by default, we'd have even more trouble with users who have junk in .sbclrc from previous attempt at setting up lisp projects. 13:25:51 help ... 13:25:56 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B536.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:18 (I think this default behaviour is a fabulous newbie protection and very easy to change for those people who know what their .sbclrc does.) 13:26:31 deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has joined #lisp 13:26:48 twitter1: link .asd file into central registry directory (asdf:*central-registry* variable) 13:26:55 and do (require :montezuma) 13:26:56 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:27:18 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:23 agreeing with lichtblau here. having clbuild work as advertised out of the box beats saving experienced users a few keystrokes (: 13:28:01 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:29 perhaps clbuild could probe-file .sbclrc and warn that it's taking no notice of it 13:28:45 assuming the experienced users read warnings 13:29:16 experienced users read FAQ 13:29:39 they do? shit, I've been inexperienced for the last 20 years 13:29:48 overdrive [n=user@nat/cisco/x-cb90e280a5413bdc] has joined #lisp 13:30:15 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:09 lol 13:31:26 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:55 wow wonce it's setup I like it :D 13:33:08 ctrl + c ctrl + k then switch to REPL and (hello-world) :D 13:33:30 so basically the only "global" thing I have installed now is sbcl? 13:33:36 you could do C-c C-c C-c C-y RET 13:33:38 the rest I can run from ./clbuild? 13:33:38 swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has joined #lisp 13:34:04 oh cool 13:34:06 thanks :) 13:35:24 vixey [n=yoo@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:35:33 minion: chant 13:35:33 MORE TROUBLE 13:35:51 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:36:02 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit ["leaving"] 13:36:06 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:17 http://www.edge.org/q2005/q05_2.html#mccarthy 13:37:13 manic12 [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:51 Hi all. What does this mean? : debugger invoked on a ASDF:MISSING-DEPENDENCY in thread #: 13:37:51 component #:BABEL not found, required by # 13:38:07 twitter1: this means that you didn't use clbuild :-) 13:38:08 you don't have babel installed 13:38:12 "component #:BABEL not found" 13:38:20 twitter1: have you followed the discussion with ArchGh0ul? Just do the same thing, except with s/clx/montezuma/ 13:39:37 dan_b: good idea 13:39:46 lichtblau: Unfortunately, I came to this channel after he built the hello world prog. 13:40:18 minion: tell twitter1 about logs 13:40:19 twitter1: look at logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 13:41:28 Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 13:41:58 dan_b: (doesn't mean that I'm implementing the idea, but I'd approve of a patch implementing it...) 13:42:36 tkb [n=Miranda@64.181.108.84] has joined #lisp 13:43:23 so next time I install linux I can just install sbcl+emacs then do the ./clbuild stuff again and bam..instant xlib dev environment?! 13:43:54 ArchGh0ul: :D 13:44:56 nex time I'ma listen to advice :D 13:48:55 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:56 schmx [n=schmx@c-0f5fe353.732-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:50:22 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:32 -!- vixey [n=yoo@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:50:45 ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has joined #lisp 13:53:14 KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:56:51 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1FCA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:59 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:57:25 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1FAA5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:05 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[away] 14:04:19 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B589.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:32 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:07:48 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:00 gherdo [n=gherdo@mefisto.infogroup.it] has joined #lisp 14:10:24 do I need to use clbuild everytime I start slime or can I just install the systems and whatnot? 14:10:43 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-169-15.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:21 I cannot understand how to have substring of car of a list. Something like (substring (car VAR) 0 1) returns wrong-type-argument arrayp. 14:13:34 <_3b> CL has no substring, what language or library are you using? 14:13:37 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B589.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:13:59 VAR is (setq VAR '(AAAA BBBB)) 14:14:06 _3b: ooops, emacs lisp. 14:14:22 _3b: wrong place to ask, isn't it? 14:14:29 <_3b> #emacs would probably know more about that, AAAA doesn't look like a string though 14:14:44 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:18 -!- ejs [n=eugen@79-140-2-152.broadband.tenet.odessa.ua] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:15:32 _3b: glom, you are right 14:16:00 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@216-177-194.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 14:16:51 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit ["leaving"] 14:16:59 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 14:17:06 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.128.94] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:17:33 -!- rey_ [i=pdewacht@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:18:04 -!- Numlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:20:33 how do I expand the list of packages clbuild knows about? 14:22:30 -!- gherdo [n=gherdo@mefisto.infogroup.it] has left #lisp 14:25:41 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:26:23 -!- hugod_ [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441753.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 14:27:03 -!- tkb [n=Miranda@64.181.108.84] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:27:32 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 14:29:45 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:30:13 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:34 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:18 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 14:36:04 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-81-173-129-228.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:36:04 one think about common lisp that I find annoying is that functions for specific operations are scatterred all over the global namespace. It would nice for example if operations specific to certain operations like sequence processing or file handling had their own packages, or atleast had their names preceded with a "file-" or "list-". That way I wouldn't have to depend too much on my memory to recall that function I had used for doing X on Y 10 d 14:36:04 ays ago. Any suggestions? 14:36:49 <_3b> program more, or use the chapter index to clhs? 14:37:39 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:37:43 _3b: That's what I do most of the time. :) 14:38:54 agnel: (defpackage "SEQUENCE" (:use "CL") (:export "LENGTH" "ELT")) (defpackage "ARRAY" (:use "CL") (:export "AREF" "ARRAY-DIMENSIONS")) etc... 14:40:47 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:50 matimago: that's something I've been thinking about too. Thanks. do you do it that way in your projects? 14:42:16 agnel: common lisp is inconsistent and full of cruft from the past. it's best to live with that or chose another language. 14:42:24 ejs [n=eugen@212-178-5-48.broadband.tenet.odessa.ua] has joined #lisp 14:42:30 agnel: No. It's not a good thing to multiply the number of packages. Better have a medium number of medium sized packages than too many small packages or too few big ones. 14:43:22 <_3b> could be a useful learning tool though, if you just use it for lookups, and don't leave the package names in the code 14:43:45 _3b: ah. 14:44:22 H4ns: does scheme have a similar problem? 14:44:48 -!- ejs [n=eugen@212-178-5-48.broadband.tenet.odessa.ua] has quit [Client Quit] 14:44:55 agnel: not to the same extent, but the scheme core is way smaller. you'll get the inconsistency when installing all the packages that make it a useful language. 14:45:52 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["I'm off!"] 14:46:22 H4ns: right. 14:46:25 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:37 Do newcomers really have a problem with the ((( )))'s ? I think they make the code easier to follow(especially with the parenthese matching in emacs) 14:46:51 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:47:00 ArchGh0ul: many newcomers endlessly whine why they can't possibly use emacs 14:47:15 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:15 ArchGh0ul: (which is the required tool for lisp programming, i'd claim) 14:47:21 wow I was using emacs before lisp 14:47:24 it's a really nice tool 14:47:24 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-147-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:47:35 used it as my "OS" for a few weeks :)) 14:47:37 ArchGh0ul: so was i. i've been using it for 20 years before i discovered common lisp. 14:47:44 shell + w3m + dired... 14:47:50 20 years :| 14:47:53 how old are you?! 14:47:59 PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:48:04 ArchGh0ul: 40 :) 14:48:11 oh wow 14:48:16 I'm 26 14:48:16 *p_l* just noticed that yes, he is 20yo old 14:48:17 *stassats* switched from vim to emacs shortly before encountering lisp 14:48:18 ArchGh0ul: i exaggerated. i was using it for only 15 years before. 14:48:37 *agnel* looks at p_l and is glad he's not the only one 14:48:42 I'm 45. The average in this channel is older. 14:48:52 I can see that Lisp programmers aren't as young as the people I'm used to dealing with :D 14:48:52 *stassats* is 19 14:48:59 That can prove to be a positive thing lol 14:49:09 ArchGh0ul: "can" :) 14:49:16 stassats: I still forget that I'm not <20 :P 14:49:29 well yeah..no more porn talk can me good and bad at the same time :))) 14:50:16 I think you guys should really know why I started learning Lisp (well how I "found" it..I always use :)))))) (wich would mean laughing instead of the regulas :) smile 14:50:29 and someone said it looks like Lisp lol 14:50:48 meow 14:50:57 odd reason but I like Lisp now :D 14:51:05 ArchGh0ul: you may document your reasons on: http://www.cliki.net/The%20Road%20to%20Lisp%20Survey 14:51:15 lol 14:51:49 (follow the link, it's an old page) 14:52:15 Well, only the alu site is down again (or still)... 14:52:40 wow some guys started learning in '80 when he was in college! 14:52:51 some guy* 14:53:18 some guy started learning it in 50s... 14:53:22 ArchGh0ul: that's quite normal :P 14:53:23 I must say I have a huge respect for a 40 year man using a digit in his nick :D 14:53:25 lol 14:53:52 wasn't LISP invented in like...54? 14:54:06 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:54:11 late 58 14:54:13 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["I'm off!"] 14:54:45 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:50 oh 14:54:56 It was LISP 50th anniversary 9 days ago. 14:55:12 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:55:26 haha and I missed it :( 14:55:34 ArchGh0ul: have a look at: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/ 14:56:16 I like vintage stuff. That's quite cool 14:56:33 My first programming machine was a cheap knockoff of a spectrum 14:56:34 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:43 I did Z80 asm on it and loved it 14:56:46 I still own it :) 14:56:49 and the tapes + recorder 14:56:58 ArchGh0ul: i hated the tapes. 14:57:19 this one had audio tapes..not those big ones you see in the movies 14:57:25 well..you prolly saw them first hand :P 14:57:29 (bad joke) 14:57:42 ArchGh0ul: i know that. friend of mine bought a double tape deck to make "backup copies" of spectrum games. 14:57:49 hehe 14:57:53 i was born with keyboards 14:57:54 ArchGh0ul: but it was all very error prone and messy. 14:58:11 meh..I hated that I was waiting for some 5 minutes to load in that infernal sound and it would crash at start 14:58:18 one byte gone and poof..tape worthless 14:58:54 An electronics enthusiast friend of mine started making a hdd interface for it a few years later 14:59:05 he was really good and he was making progress 14:59:05 sadly he died 14:59:54 *p_l* still considers Atari 800 line to be superior 8bit home computer 15:00:23 p_l: the ataris where nice, but they had this shitty 6502 cpu 15:00:28 wasn't the 2600 the best one? 15:00:34 Adamant [n=Adamant@130.254.103.13] has joined #lisp 15:00:36 ArchGh0ul: that was a game console 15:00:50 oh only that? 15:00:55 I thought it had the os too 15:01:05 we had a knockoff of that console here too 15:01:18 we were plugging it in the tv and play these CRAPPY games 15:01:21 but it was fun 15:01:27 ArchGh0ul: no. they had redicuously low amounts of memory. getting anything to run on a 2600 was art in itself. 15:01:30 we had knockoffs of all the things you can immagine 15:01:31 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:01:38 what do you espect from a commie contry?! 15:01:43 well..ex-commie now 15:02:00 ArchGh0ul: which one? 15:02:06 Romania 15:02:10 ArchGh0ul: i know. i've seen some i think romanian pdp 11 clone. i've also seen pictures of a vax-11/730 clone. uargh 15:02:14 And no..I'm not a gipsy :P 15:02:42 H4ns: PDP-11 clone was produced in Poland, after both USSR and USA conspired to kill off our hi-tech industry 15:06:29 there was even some special Lisp system on one of them 15:07:00 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250012.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:02 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 15:07:07 I still can't get return values with defun functions. So the last "output" of the function is returned automatically? 15:07:56 clhs RETURN-FROM 15:07:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_ret_fr.htm 15:08:05 ArchGh0ul: have a look at this operator. 15:08:07 return value of last form 15:08:11 ok will thanks 15:08:21 ArchGh0ul: it's called an implicit progn 15:09:25 so in lamens terms: If I do (return-from nil 13) the function will return "13" ? 15:09:50 ArchGh0ul: you should use return-from rarely 15:09:55 (defun fun () (return-from fun 13) 14) 15:10:22 ArchGh0ul: No. The function has a name. You should give it to return-from. 15:10:24 Will try to do that..but I'm used to the C way of writing functions 15:10:30 stassats: ok that one messes up my head, does it return 13? 15:10:31 ArchGh0ul: otherwise it will try to return from a block named NIL. 15:10:33 I use return values to catch success/failure 15:10:35 c|mell [n=cmell@x250036.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:10:36 rullie_: yes 15:10:43 stassats: can you sort of explain? 15:10:59 ArchGh0ul: don't do that. use conditions and error instead 15:11:32 rullie_: return-from transfers control to the named block 15:11:54 and doesn't come back 15:12:14 isn't the named block fun? 15:12:39 yes, defun explicitly establishes block named after the function name 15:12:41 clhs block 15:12:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_block.htm 15:12:58 milanj [n=milan@93.87.168.93] has joined #lisp 15:13:05 so wouldn't (fun) go on to 14? 15:13:27 i meant, implicitly 15:13:55 (block fun (return-from fun 13) 14) 15:14:07 "the values of the forms if a normal return occurs, or else, if an explicit return occurs, the values that were transferred." 15:14:20 -!- plage [n=user@laptop-147-210-129-185.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:14:31 and 13 is transferred here 15:14:35 oh ok 15:15:12 so (defun fun (return-from fun) 14) returns 14? =/ 15:15:29 Yes, but not for the reason you believe. 15:15:31 actually, yes 15:15:32 I have a question regarding compiling. I compiled some simple app, but it's bytecompiling (so I still need the interpreter to run). Can Lisp be linked/compiled statically? for deployment and whatnot? 15:15:42 matimago: for what reason then? 15:16:01 Because return-from and fun are parameters. 15:16:13 ITYM (defun fun () (return-from fun) 14) 15:16:15 oh .. 15:16:17 oops 15:16:18 minion: tell ArchGh0ul about binaries 15:16:19 ArchGh0ul: in case of SBCL, there's only native code. what you call linking would be creating an image 15:16:19 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``binaries''. 15:16:19 (defun fun () (return-from fun 14)) would return 14 15:16:21 and fun wil return NIL 15:16:25 hm. 15:16:26 matimago: yeah sorry, that's what i meant 15:16:42 minion: executables? 15:16:44 executables: creating executables: Newcomers to Lisp often ask how to "create an executable" from their Lisp program. http://www.cliki.net/creating%20executables 15:16:47 ArchGh0ul: search fro cl-launch, it was a wrapper around generating executables 15:16:56 what about (defun fun () ((return-from fun) 14)) do? 15:16:56 ah. ArchGh0ul ^ see that 15:16:59 k 15:17:09 rullie_: nothing good. 15:17:12 is minion made in lisp btw? :D 15:17:21 matimago: is it NIL? 15:17:22 ArchGh0ul: you bet 15:17:26 rullie_: this is the first lesson in lisp. Please, read again GENTLE from the start. 15:17:27 minion: do you like lisp? 15:17:27 you'd have to tell me... my memory circuits are fried 15:17:32 so it does sockets too..that's cool 15:17:35 minion: tell rullie_ about gentle 15:17:36 rullie_: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 15:18:00 ok :) 15:18:19 gah, 500 pages 15:18:23 rullie_: gentle starts with lessons in programming. The first lesson in Lisp actually starts in chapter 3. 15:18:51 k 15:18:56 minion: clhs? 15:18:56 clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 15:19:07 -!- Fufie [n=poff@34.80-203-160.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:19:49 minion: say where? 15:19:50 you speak nonsense 15:20:18 minion: where are you living? 15:20:19 why do you want to know? 15:20:32 minion: Basic Turing Test question. Sorry. 15:20:33 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 43 seconds is too many. 15:20:35 what is ListWorks and whatis clisp? 15:20:36 -!- deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:20:40 lispworks 15:20:48 lisp implementations 15:20:50 nooper: they are implementations of the CL language. 15:21:06 is minion in lisp? 15:21:11 Yes. 15:21:15 minon: sources? 15:21:19 so, is it bad to apply the LispWorks documentation to clisp? 15:21:28 nooper: yes. 15:21:43 nooper: you apply the Common Lisp standard (CLHS) to both implementations. 15:21:54 you don't like "lispworks" part in the CLHS url? 15:21:54 ah 15:21:55 But each implementation documents their specific stuff. 15:23:00 nooper: the standard advise implementers to document their implementations specific features in a chapter structure parallel to that of CLHS, so it may be confusing. 15:23:25 It's so you can read both the standard and the implementation specific additions easily. 15:23:46 i see 15:24:55 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B589.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:27:27 I just coded my real first "larger" method within emacs lisp. Kinda proud of myself TBH but also was curious for some feedback on if there is something really dumb I'm doing or something. I submitted the paste here, http://paste.lisp.org/display/76963 The code works perfectly fine for my needs right now, I'm just curious if there's something I could do better or not. 15:28:18 TDT: #emacs may be a more suitable channel for elisp code reviews. 15:28:38 H4ns: Yeah, I wasn't really sure, kinda debated that in my head as I was typing this out, haha. 15:29:38 Pasted the same thing there, sorry about the ot-ness. 15:30:36 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:30:46 stassats: i didn't know if it meant if clhs was specific to lispworks 15:30:59 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 15:31:39 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 15:32:14 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:10 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:34:25 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:32 TDT: not tested, but have a look at the annotation. If you had indicated to lisppaste that it was related to the #lisp channel it would have pasted the url itself... 15:36:18 TDT: I've not tested it. 15:38:50 matimago: Yeah, I was thinking of doing that, but TBH as H4ns kinda mentioned, it's kinda a grey area on where it should go. 15:39:38 I mean..it's lisp, but also emacs, and so far (at least from what I've been working on) they are kinda similar to each other. Some from #emacs commented though, got a bit of constructive feedback, hehe. 15:40:33 TDT: #lisp is about common lisp. 15:40:53 TDT: (just for information, so that you'll make the right decision next time) 15:41:09 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:41:50 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 15:41:58 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 15:42:25 elisp != clisp. Even I know that :'( 15:42:47 ArchGh0ul: clisp is a common lisp implementation. that you don't seem to know :) 15:43:22 H4ns: *nod* 15:44:01 -!- PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit ["leaving"] 15:44:13 but aren't they 2 different implementations hence...well...different? 15:44:26 ArchGh0ul: granted 15:45:00 got to the "if" in PCL 15:45:04 finally starting to make progress :) 15:45:12 That book is really well written. 15:45:38 that + ABS (advanced bash scripting) is all I need now 15:48:11 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:49:50 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 15:50:10 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:35 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 15:52:17 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 15:52:33 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 15:53:22 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:28 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 15:53:39 sellout- [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:55 lichtblau: To which SBCL version does your memory-roundup.diff applied? (tried applying it to 1.0.25, but I managed to get it only to ldb) 15:56:11 does the relocation branch from git work for you? that's branched from 1.0.12.42, I think. 15:56:50 lichtblau: can I get a link? I couldn't recall the git one, so I tried with memory-roundup.diff ^^; 15:58:18 somewhere on repo.or.cz 15:58:23 (sorry, I need to catch a train. will be on again later) 15:58:36 ok 15:58:41 I think I found it 16:00:10 I'm off too. See you people later. Thanks for all the help. I will be here daily :) 16:00:22 -!- ArchGh0ul [n=goblin@mail.skepsis.ro] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:00:42 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has left #lisp 16:02:25 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 16:02:42 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:53 psyllo [n=psyllo@library.xwi.xmission.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:26 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@74.125.59.1] has joined #lisp 16:04:25 I wonder if SBCL will compile under CCL :D 16:05:50 -!- agnel [n=joel@115.99.2.68] has quit ["brb"] 16:07:30 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:52 baffg [n=htump@c-69-254-138-249.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:02 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-97-1.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:11 -!- sellout- [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:11:30 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:13:13 deego [n=user@74.255.63.136] has joined #lisp 16:13:26 -!- KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:14:08 antifuchs: I sent a message to mcclim-dev 5 days ago, it looks like it hasn't shown up yet. Are you an admin there? can you look? 16:14:26 agnel [n=joel@115.99.2.68] has joined #lisp 16:14:45 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 16:15:25 dpans2texi is nice. :) 16:16:15 -!- lichtblau [n=user@wallstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:16:19 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 16:19:16 -!- agnel is now known as agnel-away 16:20:29 -!- bbe [n=bbe@121.229.105.181] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:21:12 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:26 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9F17.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:21:34 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm158.epsilon100.maxonline.com.sg] has quit ["leaving"] 16:22:14 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:54 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:25:48 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B536.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:28:24 willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:29:20 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 16:30:40 Tordek [n=tordek@host12.190-227-32.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:34:55 anyone know where a good reference for using the (format ...) function to pretty print and tabulate output is? PCL doesn't have it... (it mentions that it doesn't discuss these thigns at the end of the format chapter) 16:35:43 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:36:22 nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 16:36:29 clhs format 16:36:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 16:37:04 I was hoping for a more reader-friendly quick tutorial, as opposed to reading through the spec... oh well 16:37:21 well, you said "reference" 16:37:55 maybe http://cybertiggyr.com/gene/fmt/ ? 16:38:31 -!- nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has quit [Client Quit] 16:39:46 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:11 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:53 catface [n=email@93-97-25-170.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:42:01 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:55 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has left #lisp 16:43:19 -!- prip [n=_prip@host152-124-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:44:27 -!- twitter1 is now known as TaoChing 16:46:28 has anyone gotten the sbcl .msi working? When I try to run the .exe it just complains about not finding /usr/local/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core 16:46:39 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:53:14 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 16:54:15 Fufie: you can try finding sbcl.core and telling sbcl where it is with --core parameter 16:54:48 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has quit [] 16:55:54 ah, naturally :) 16:57:00 MS should include SUA by default in all editions, it would make windows even more interesting :> 16:57:51 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go home"] 16:59:33 -!- _cosmonaut_ [n=sanya@tiger.mirohost.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:00:40 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:02:42 -!- agnel-away is now known as agnel 17:02:47 prip [n=_prip@host157-120-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:06:25 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:14 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AA7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:45 mega1: could something like this happen: control stack guard is reached, slime debugger comes up, i invoke the abort restart, but after that C-c C-c in the repl nor 'd'ebug in the slime thread list does not work 17:09:12 i'm not sure if these are the triggering parameters, because i'm struggling with another woodoo meanwhile 17:09:17 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:33 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:04 attila_lendvai: if the slime debugger is really runs out of stack, yes 17:10:10 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:10:18 I think I'll add a hard guard page. 17:10:39 and trade 4k for certainty. 17:11:05 yeah, those messages about crossing fingers are scary... if we have to cross fingers, then i guess ldb should be imminent... 17:11:22 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 17:11:33 not always 17:12:28 oh, ok 17:14:41 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:14:54 if you want ldb then --lose-on-corruption 17:15:53 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:43 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:09 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:17:19 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:17:50 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:01 mega1: and in case of a stack overflow error... how much space do i have left for the error handling code? almost zero, a few calls, or enough for a few dozen calls? 17:19:06 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:33 less than one page :-) 17:19:39 seems like my 3 level error handling code in the web server corrupts the image in case of a stack overflow 17:19:49 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:21 stack overflow is not a recoverable error in general 17:20:25 attila_lendvai: wow 17:20:34 use --lose-on-corruption in production 17:20:59 (and I'll add the hard guard page) 17:21:25 hugod [n=hugod@modemcable152.16-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:21:39 mega1: well... then i need to be much more careful. i think this error comes from contextl's print-object method. if i --lose-on-corruption, then our servers are going to be quite fragile to random lib bugs... :) 17:21:58 -!- psyllo [n=psyllo@library.xwi.xmission.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:22:01 hmmm... it would be interesting to make a kind of ha-control application for lisp images. You could then specify fotr the server to die and save all information it could, while a replacement image would be set up :D 17:22:45 fe[nl]ix: i've just added error-log-decorators, which are ways to install callbacks that help collecting error log in case of an error. a mere backtrace is often not enough... 17:22:48 they are fragile already ... 17:23:03 oh yuck. I think I have the same uncommitted changes in two darcs repos 17:23:12 they will just die with a saner error message 17:23:14 or maybe they're just similar uncommitted change 17:23:19 mega1: even if i special case stack overflow and bail out early... 17:23:21 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 17:23:22 ? 17:24:13 DarkGoblin [n=goblin@89.136.174.25] has joined #lisp 17:24:20 and I'm back :) 17:24:21 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:24:26 *DarkGoblin* == ArchGh0ul 17:24:51 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:24:58 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:21 ejs [n=eugen@79.140.13.118] has joined #lisp 17:25:22 attila_lendvai: you cannot trust any handler to get out of stack overflow reliably. The random bug in some lib that leads to stack overflow can corrupt your image already. Bailing out does not make it more fragile. 17:25:48 mega1: you mean less fragile? 17:26:02 -!- ejs [n=eugen@79.140.13.118] has quit [Client Quit] 17:26:31 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:42 prabu [n=prabu@117.193.201.209] has joined #lisp 17:26:53 mega1: so, this means that if i get a stack exhausted error, then no matter how quickly i unwind, the image may have been corrupted already? 17:26:56 attila_lendvai: no, I mean bailing out on a potentially unrecoverable error (that may leave the image slightly corrupted) is preferrable to crossing fingers. 17:27:08 hunchentoot seems to be changed! 17:27:17 attila_lendvai: without an additional guard page, yes. 17:27:22 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-188-238.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:27:28 that's why you get those scary warnings. 17:27:36 i'm not able to run the hunchentoot-test 17:28:15 xyblor [n=nik@76-10-138-8.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:16 mega1: ok. i've thought that it's just sign that we are hitting a hard limit... so, i'm all in with 4k for a more predictable behavior! :) 17:29:05 and until then --lose-on-corruption in production :-) 17:29:22 and afterwards too for that matter ... 17:30:41 -!- hugod [n=hugod@modemcable152.16-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 17:30:46 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 17:32:14 any one ran the hunchentoot-test ? 17:32:26 recently! 17:33:08 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:24 cmo-0 [n=user@86.99.141.145] has joined #lisp 17:35:45 Hi, I have a question regarding M-. in slime. when loading files or compiling files into a lisp session, and then connecting to the swank server i can not normally use M-. (to find definition source), unless i go hunting through all files and C-cC-k (compiling) them from within emacs. why can't i do that from the begining after loading the files? 17:36:05 myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-188-238.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 17:37:23 loading files wouldn't work, you need to compile-file first 17:37:39 so (load (compile-file ...)) 17:38:07 yes 17:38:56 -!- swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:40:00 stassats: does compiling implies all macro will be expanded at compile time? since some of the functionality i use depend on setting sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* to :interpret 17:40:39 *dlowe* thinks the things people want to do in lisp are utterly insane. 17:41:15 cmo-0: macros would be expanded at macro-expansion time 17:41:21 cmo-0: evaluating, whether by compilation or interpretation, implies that all macros are expanded 17:42:37 why do you use :interpret mode? 17:43:00 i use interpretation for the advantage that i do not need to hunt for other definition to recompile them if i modified my macro definition. 17:43:07 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 17:43:13 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-144-85.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:43:36 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:37 let slime hunt for you 17:43:55 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:43:58 yes and then recompile what have been hunted by slime? 17:44:03 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 17:44:20 sure 17:44:38 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 17:44:57 as I read comp.lisp.lang (1998-2004), I've came across an article which clarify that using this mode at development time (when thing are in flux) is preferd, then as the functions stabilize, I can compile and load them. 17:45:28 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:46:42 lemonade` [n=no@pool-72-75-92-89.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:43 going for system restart is insane (and recompiling all files for which there is a customer for the macro i'm redefininng is the kind of insane I do not want to do) 17:47:47 hi, I'm looking through some docs of postmodern and there is: function decode-timestamp (timestamp) -> (values year month day hour minute second millisecond) but it only seems to return the year and I'm not sure how to access the others 17:47:57 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:14 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-125-224.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:57 clhs m-v-b 17:48:58 MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_multip.htm 17:48:59 egn: check out multiple-value-bind 17:49:47 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@host75-233-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:50:00 dlowe: thanks 17:51:19 stassats: I've rememberd the title of the article, and found it. if you are interested I will paste its link 17:52:04 looks like I got sbcl relocation branch to compile... 17:52:07 *p_l* crosses fingers 17:52:12 cmo-0: thanks, but i understand implications of redefining macros 17:52:48 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:14 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:47 it was my understanding that the sbcl interpreter had mostly been ripped out 17:55:34 wasn't it ripped in then? 17:55:47 dlowe: lately a full evaluator was added IIRC 17:55:53 -!- jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:23 the default behaviour is still the same, compile everything except for most simplistic forms 17:56:33 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:30 ripping the evaluator will also rip to some extent (a large one) the fun in the interactivity and add some compiler job to rucksack of the CLisper! 17:58:36 i don't think many here use evaluator mode in sbcl 17:59:34 what deos that implies or has to do with the benifits of the evaluator?! 18:00:15 cmo-0: it implies that it might be less usefull than initially assumed 18:02:20 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:02:23 mandnificent: using that reasoning implies also that Microsoft is more usefull.(YMMV) 18:02:44 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-144-85.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:02:54 argument by total non-sequitur? 18:03:02 microsoft is more useful than evaluator? 18:03:24 cmo-0: no it doesn't, it is a one-way direction... 18:03:30 *dlowe* doesn't FEEL mentally damaged from using sbcl. 18:03:34 no, if the number of people is the measure? 18:03:45 cmo-0: on top of that, it implied that, you asked what it implied... whether it is right or not, was not my statement 18:04:25 hbock [n=hbock@198.7.232.229] has joined #lisp 18:05:05 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:07 hi all, having a small problem with ASDF. 18:05:47 I'm currently invoking the skip-gpg-check restart when the key-not-found error is signaled, which works fine. 18:06:08 *stassats* knew that problem would be with asdf-install 18:06:37 but if asdf-install:install needs to grab dependencies on a package, the key-not-found error propagates up to the debugger, which is very undesirable 18:06:41 any idea how to fix it? 18:06:52 yeah, sorry, asdf-install not asdf. 18:06:53 stop using asdf-install? 18:07:36 stassats: I'd love nothing more, is there a better solution? 18:07:54 clbuild is quite popular 18:09:22 -!- dtulig [n=user@cpe-72-179-46-14.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:09:24 cause compared to asdf-install, it just works? :P 18:09:33 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-1caa9817754e2410] has joined #lisp 18:10:04 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 18:10:06 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 18:12:41 wow. that is a rather large shell script. 18:13:57 -!- overdrive [n=user@nat/cisco/x-cb90e280a5413bdc] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:18:25 hbock: ... it's a small one... believe me 18:18:43 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:37 *p_l* tried reverse-engineering libtool... and failed, driven to insanity 18:20:10 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:21:21 mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:21:57 How do I define different methods for flat lists versus lists containing lists? Should I define classes to differentiate the two? 18:22:40 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:43 all lists have the same class 18:23:02 yeah that's the problem 18:23:20 can I decide on the method with a test instead then? 18:24:00 you can do (defclass flat-list () ((contents :initform (list 1 2 3)))) 18:24:57 -!- prabu [n=prabu@117.193.201.209] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:26:17 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:26:35 though if you modify one of the conses, it can become non-flat 18:27:10 without traversing the list, it's impossible to know beforehand 18:27:59 well, restricting yourself to not modify them can help 18:28:02 i mean, you could in theory do (some #'consp flat-list?) but that's likely expensive 18:28:14 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B536.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:37 I don't mind the expense 18:29:08 then use a type that satisfies (some #'consp ...) 18:29:21 and specialize defmethod on that type 18:30:09 okay, so I'll try to define a type 18:30:47 hbock: is it possible to specilize method arguments on a deftyped thing (aka not a class)? 18:31:49 -!- rullie_ is now known as rullie 18:33:51 cmo-0: yes module the dispatching is still done on the type of the values. 18:34:11 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:22 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@93-40-115-226.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:34:45 cmo-0: Sorry, no it's not possible. 18:34:49 pjb: is there an example link or ACL page that i can find an example? 18:35:39 You can only specialize method on classes, and for some system types, an equivalent class is defined. eg integer --> #. 18:36:31 -!- _death [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:36:45 -!- stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:37:19 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:37:39 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [] 18:38:14 cmo-0: you can't use defmethod, unfortunately... but (e)typecase works just fine :) 18:38:48 -!- lemonade` [n=no@pool-72-75-92-89.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:38:54 lemonade` [n=no@pool-72-75-92-89.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:02 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 18:39:11 thanks, I know that. 18:40:43 cmo-0: if it is really important for your application, you may reify your types and values. 18:40:50 stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:18 pjb:thanks, but I was not asking the question in the first place, I was just trying to understand if it was conforming to use deftype..ed things as i thought hbock was hinting. 18:48:32 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:49:35 sanely bootstrapped common lisp failed to bootstrap from cmucl, clisp, ccl for me 18:49:52 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:02 Hello all. 18:50:06 hi 18:52:42 So, has anyone managed to get SBCL/Win32 and SLIME on speaking terms recently? 18:52:58 'cause setting it all up with cygwin emacs sucked. 18:54:06 hi nyef 18:54:12 Hello p_l. 18:54:43 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:54:50 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 18:55:10 I've not gotten much further with the alpha stuff in terms of running SRM code, but I did some code cleanups and testing. 18:55:41 Including going over the byte extract, insert, and mask implementation with a fine tooth comb and a test suite. 18:57:20 FUCK YEAH, lichtblau you are my hero 18:57:33 *p_l* just got SBCL at *least* to *run* 18:57:44 What's this? 18:57:55 nyef: SBCL 1.0.14-relocation 18:58:00 Ah! 18:58:19 1.0.25 dies before reaching ldb :) 18:58:48 correction, I've got 1.0.12.42-relocation running :) 18:58:55 Yeah, I tried building the 1.0.12.42 version for Win32, and it choked with some access violation. 18:59:26 Oh! Do you have that patch to make relocation work in cold-init? 18:59:43 nyef: I used lichtblau's git tree 19:00:20 On github? 19:00:52 on repo.or.cz 19:00:56 Ah, right. 19:01:05 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:01:20 git clone http://repo.or.cz/r/sbcl/lichteblau.git/ && git checkout origin/relocation-cleanup 19:01:28 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:01:37 It's been a little while since I checked it out, and my tree has some changes that I put in the wrong place, etc. 19:04:00 does this relocation branch use paging to move blocks instead of copying? 19:04:20 berndj [n=berndj@41.6.34.87] has joined #lisp 19:04:48 It's two things. First is being able to allocate non-contiguous dynamic-space areas. 19:05:18 That is, dynamic-space can be interspersed with memory areas allocated for non-lisp stuff. 19:05:27 And it's also being able to relocate a core on load. 19:05:30 ah, very very nice 19:05:34 anyway, he just lost his argument that there are no people interested in his relocation branch :3 19:06:12 That is, if it can't get the usual dynamic space, it can move it elsewhere and fix everything up to work. 19:06:30 In practice, this only works on warm cores, cold-sbcl.core doesn't relocate properly. 19:06:35 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:23 vy [n=user@88.227.108.22] has joined #lisp 19:07:24 connect [n=frank@41.145.42.12] has joined #lisp 19:07:25 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"] 19:07:27 That said, http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/sbcl.git?a=commit;h=9603675940cce3bcac93b354dca62d20c991cbce fixes cold-sbcl.core to be properly relocatable. 19:07:34 p_l: would it boost my applications by 10x? 19:07:45 -!- connect is now known as franks 19:07:57 stassats: it probably won't boost it. But it allowed me to run SBCL at all on my host :) 19:08:03 -!- franks is now known as frank_s 19:08:28 and *runs* >> *crashes on load* 19:08:29 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:08:33 Anyway, it's a start, but it doesn't run on Win32. 19:08:51 Is there any way to get the width of a console? 19:08:51 it runs perfectly on my hosts, so i'm not interested... 19:09:03 unless there are some other benefits 19:09:11 stassats: working without overcommit 19:09:21 stassats: The dynamic space size limit is a soft limit. 19:09:43 what does that imply? 19:09:58 You can add more dynamic space at runtime. 19:10:20 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-099-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:30 no "dynamic space exhausted"? 19:10:40 That I don't know about. 19:11:01 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 19:11:22 it has two-phase limit 19:11:56 the first one is not critical, allows you to rerun the operation with raised limit or to recover in other ways 19:12:06 *p_l* compiles weblocks 19:12:53 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@86.99.141.145] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:26 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CAB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:29 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CAB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:37 phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 19:20:40 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CAB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:54 Okay, new article time: http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/sbcl-win32-slime-and-cygwin-emacs.txt 19:21:25 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:21:49 -!- baffg [n=htump@c-69-254-138-249.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:22:00 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:14 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:25:41 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:18 is slime working well with clisp on win32? 19:26:52 just wondering 19:27:01 I didn't have much luck on a couple counts. 19:27:22 oh well 19:27:22 One is that slime-compile-file wasn't working for me, and another is that the arglist hinting is completely bloody useless. 19:28:39 *p_l* wonders how well it will work with ECL 19:28:42 xyblor: it certainly works on my machine 19:29:52 nyef: thanks for that article! i now have a working clisp AND a working sbcl on my windows box! (thanks to that ~/.swank.lisp bit) 19:30:01 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441753.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:30:47 frank_s: Just be aware that new-serve-event.lisp was never finished, and thus will likely break if you try to stress it. 19:31:20 At the same time, being able to easily redefine the window-function for a window currently on the screen was cool. 19:32:46 -!- agnel [n=joel@115.99.2.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:49 nyef: thanks for the heads-up. for now i'm just tooling around, learning the language, so i'm happy just to be able to _run_ sbcl (and actually be able to continue working after an accident) 19:32:50 -!- DarkGoblin [n=goblin@89.136.174.25] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.7-dev"] 19:33:11 damn, something's screwed with slime bindings in emacs 19:34:12 Yeah, finding out that it was a known issue since at least last december, and that they were basically saying "SBCL's problem, not ours" really left me steamed, especially as the SBCL repsonse was basically "we'll happily help someone fix it, but we don't care to do so ourselves". 19:35:12 and i doesn't know, whether it's emacs's bug or slime's 19:35:55 s/does/do/ 19:36:09 -!- comex is now known as judicaster 19:36:32 What's worse is that the bug in question is a long-known bug, was reported something like fourteen months ago, and the prototype fix (new-serve-event) has been available for even longer. 19:37:19 rullie_ [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:43 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:03 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CAB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:52 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CAB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:39:37 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CAB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:40:42 -!- jao [n=jao@207.Red-83-37-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:43:48 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:44:00 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:48:18 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:29 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:49:39 jao [n=jao@207.Red-83-37-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:32 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:51:07 puchacz: cze 19:51:52 gaah! aren't "Business Rules" just constraint-satisfaction problems? 19:52:01 fusss: xD 19:52:25 hoist the prolog banner. 19:53:04 p_l: this is not the time for smileys; i'm confused and spiteful. 19:53:12 Oh, please do! I want to see the look on my employer's face when I break -that- one out. 19:53:27 IME "business rules" is a euphemism for "spaghetti requirements" 19:53:37 fusss: I know. I take life with a healthy dose of insanity, though 19:54:47 berndj: that's exactly what it is. i can't for the life of me see anything in it but nested IFs 19:54:58 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-7-245.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:10 fusss: How about CONDs instead? 19:55:13 *nyef* ducks. 19:55:38 ferada [n=user@e179232007.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:56:00 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AA7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:56:15 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AA7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:36 "business rules": "we'd like you to automate the system but we don't actually understand how it works anyway" 19:56:47 does at least represent an advance on the susual state, though 19:56:56 which is that they don't know and don't know they don't know 19:57:12 i really hope someone takes an axe to suit-speak and breaks down that pile of crap into small chunks of algebras, logics and grammars (not "patterns" FFS) 19:58:07 fusss: That someone could be you! :-P 19:58:57 nyef: aren't you the one responsible for void scratch (void) in win32-os.lisp? :-D 19:59:10 i am low ;-) 19:59:20 ^ _aim_ low 19:59:38 *michaelw* looks down to fusss 19:59:59 Yes, I'm also the one responsible for having done the initial win32 port in the first place. 20:00:16 *fusss* looks up to nyef 20:00:51 (I blame being bored at work while the suits argued over business rules.) 20:01:28 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:02:31 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:03:02 so basically i have a rectangle labeled "business rules" in the middle of a pile of other rectangles, all with arrows pointing to other rectangles. one way I can really make BR, well, fit into the whole would be to abstract away "BR" to some kind of generic function. 20:03:24 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 20:03:25 and assume the rules will be added later, either by me, the system, or users 20:03:38 i still have to work out a method combination that makes sense though 20:04:36 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AA7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:05:11 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:05:15 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AA7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:48 some kind of "frame" model, where some given rules only make sense with in a given context .. 20:06:25 Frames are "just" a particular class of object-oriented designs, aren't they? 20:06:33 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-219-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:42 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AA7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:06:53 josemanuel [n=josemanu@105.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:07:14 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-207.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:07:22 Hrm. 20:07:24 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 20:07:51 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AA7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:19 Taking "segmentation" of "patrons"/"customers"/"clients" as an example, the business rules are all about classifying people in various ways. 20:08:45 -!- ajcc [n=adrian@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:09:07 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:09:55 that classification. i was speaking more of straight forward constraint satisfaction: "invoice are due with in 14 days from issue date", "if an invoice is overdue, charge X% interest", "if an invoice is overdue by X days, transfer to a collection agency", etc. 20:10:06 really tiny nasty piece of logic 20:10:45 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-150-26.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 20:10:52 You're still classifying an invoice into one of three groups, though, aren't you? 20:11:13 Four groups. 20:11:34 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@105.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 20:11:36 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-116.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:11:57 More than that, really, if you consider various "paid" and "unpayable" states. 20:12:21 might want to look into rule-based systems... 20:12:40 michaelw: exactly why i said BR == CSPs 20:13:24 nyef: i feel iffy about changing the type of an object based on its "state". you don't change-class just because a slot changed value. 20:13:28 But what I see is that an invoice has some notion of current state, with appropriate transitions... 20:14:21 I never said anything about changing the type. I said changing its classification, which is an altogether different notion. 20:14:39 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [No route to host] 20:14:51 -!- photon is now known as manatwhattheheck 20:14:54 Classification is a matter of set membership. 20:14:58 -!- manatwhattheheck is now known as photon 20:15:11 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:16:46 in this case the problem domain is straightfoward; but what about the case where domain knowledge is hard for a programmer to get or still unclear? i wish to externalize that to some kind of query answering function .. 20:17:06 and then you find yourself inventing a new programming language. 20:17:06 sorry, i might have misunderstood you a bit there nyef 20:17:25 So... Isn't this an application for machine learning techniques? 20:17:32 fusss: have you looked at CLIPS (or its descendants)? 20:17:50 michaelw: yes, i'm an avid tinkerer with Lisa 20:17:53 tic: we do this all the time anyway. the trick is to reuse the runtime :) 20:18:17 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:18:41 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 20:18:46 (Maybe a rule-based language for implementation, with a statistical machine-learning thing on the front-end to help derive the rules?) 20:19:16 michaelw, so very true. *curses work for only allowing non-extensible languages* 20:19:26 fusss: CoP? 20:19:29 nyef: :-) if I told you the problem domain you would run and start your own psychic shop :-) yes it is. 20:19:58 tic: you could always implement lisp in your work-approved language 20:20:31 p_l: can't acronymexpand-1 that 20:20:38 Nah, reimplement your work-approved language in lisp, and then start using "compiler extensions"... 20:20:47 tic: which language doesn't allow to use libraries? 20:20:53 Context oriented Programming? 20:21:02 berndj, it's certainly an inspiration, see http://mikael.jansson.be/static/tmp/linnea.txt ... 20:21:12 fusss: Context Oriented Programming 20:21:37 michaelw, libraries schmibraries. :/ if it's Lisp proper it's not Python anymore 20:21:43 *fusss* crawls from under rock and heads to teh google 20:22:06 fusss: As additional link, ContextL. And rewrite the app in CL ;-) 20:22:28 The only python truly worth using is written in lisp. :-P 20:22:41 p_l: the app IS in CL 20:22:49 fusss: even better :D 20:23:12 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 20:23:33 berndj, essentially, I've implemented my own object model on top of Python's, just to get some things I'd get for free if I'd written it in Lisp. Horray. 20:23:35 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:24:46 alright, now i feel high with excitement, going to capture it in a bottle .. 20:24:47 ok, I found the thing I dislike about CL pathnames :P 20:24:50 laters! 20:24:53 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009021910]"] 20:25:38 p_l: THE thing? 20:25:49 :) 20:25:52 p_l: It took you this long to find them? 20:26:05 I think there are probably n+1 things wrong with cl pathnames 20:26:15 where n is the number of relevant cl implementations 20:26:35 Mmm... Such potential, so utterly flawed. 20:26:51 yes, THE thing. how sometimes lack '/' at the end of pathname makes things go wrong :P 20:27:09 / at the end <=> directory 20:27:17 (when I enter it using #P syntax) 20:27:47 gotta turn completely towards lisp pathnames for definitions 20:28:02 #P"/tmp" is the FILE named "tmp" in the root directory. #P"/tmp/" is the DIRECTORY named "tmp" in the root directory. 20:28:29 also... is there an established way to send someone a beer/(other favorite beverage)? 20:28:36 same difference as open(2) and opendir(2) if you will. 20:28:52 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:28:53 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:28:55 pjb: that's why it's only annoyance from my pov ;-) 20:29:20 there is probably a filesystem somewhere that allows regular files foo/bar and foo/bar/baz to both exist simultaneously 20:29:37 and obviously it would be bad if the pathname system can't cope with this 20:29:55 dan_b: I think Unix was actually exceptional in disallowing that 20:30:23 i think on freebsd you can do "cat /etc" ? 20:30:33 p_l: well, my first idea would be to beg Interflora to add a beer along with the flower. But nowadays, there are a lot of local store doing delivery from internet commands, so you would only have to identify the right chain, and order the beer thru their web page, to be delivered at your friend. 20:30:33 on older unices you certainly could 20:30:43 you get a binary blob with some entry names and inode numbers 20:30:45 it would usually mess your terminal up though 20:30:48 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 20:31:01 dan_b: cause it's a correct operation... 20:31:21 who's defining "correct" here? 20:31:27 yes, it does. very annoying on a slow ssh connection and when tab completion doesn't find what you think would be a single entry 20:31:33 p_l: notice that in some file systems you can have both a file and a directory under the same name. 20:31:36 on Unix V7 I think 'ls' actually read the directory files 20:31:45 pjb: yes, I know 20:31:52 and why isn't my xen domU noticing I've added a chunk of memory to it 20:31:58 don't tell me I have to reboot it, please 20:32:06 kind of a directory-2 vs. directory-1 :-) 20:32:12 vy pasted "factorial" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76981 20:32:24 pjb: the same how a file in NTFS has 1~3 names without counting links :) 20:32:59 berndj: you can indeed "cat /etc" - and get *cough* garbage, as one might expect 20:33:40 oh wait, I see. xm set-mem will fail to update the domain but still change what xm list says 20:33:51 dan_b: having fun with xen? 20:34:03 splendid fun 20:34:31 *p_l* will never stop being surprised by how bmp files load in browsers 20:34:41 Would anybody mind helping me to figure out which portions in the above `FACTORIAL' disassembly outputs cause the tail-call-optimization? 20:34:48 "very slowly"? 20:35:05 dan_b: no, from bottom to top 20:35:27 cool 20:35:43 you could probably fake that with css/js stuff for other formats, might be an entertaining hcak 20:36:49 btw, weblocks+hunchentoot 1.0 confirmed to work with sbcl -relocation branch 20:37:47 p_l: Cool! 20:38:16 -!- schmx [n=schmx@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:19 http://plasek.rootnode.net/lisp <--- proof (please don't give it a ./ effect...) 20:38:57 vy: disassemble output doesn't cause tco, it shows already optimized code 20:39:05 (it's going to host my main site in future) 20:39:35 see how first functions calls itself, and how the second does looping 20:39:38 stassats: I know, I just want to learn which lines related with the TCO. 20:40:27 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:40:45 vy: The line with the label L1: is the tail-call. 20:41:07 (The entire thing was converted to iteration.) 20:41:22 btw, that lisp instance runs only with allocation, not incremental allocation - it was enough to get it working, and 8G shouldn't scare them as much as 512G of CCL 20:43:10 nyef: stassats: Thanks, let me check it some more. 20:44:21 vy: You might try compiling a version that "just" tail-calls itself with an optional accumulator argument, and compiling it both with it declared notinline within its body and without. 20:44:27 if you know some simple assembly, L0: checks (< m n) and jumps to the exit (L2) or continues, and L1 jumps to L0 20:44:56 nyef: Excellent idea! 20:45:09 (ISTR that either inline or notinline or both affects TCO to the same top-level function, but forget the details.) 20:45:39 stassats: I didn't receive my bachelor's degree from CS dept. (BTW, thanks for the tips.) 20:45:52 "The elimination of tail-recursive frames can be prevented by disabling tail-recursion optimization, which happens when the debug optimization quality is greater than 2." 20:46:08 vy: neither did i 20:46:40 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-24-219-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:49:58 6 threads, CPU idle 7% < 10%, not spawning another 20:50:04 yay, self-limiting 20:50:15 I wonder if I shoudl make it track free ram as well? 20:51:54 dan_b: what is it? 20:52:38 araneida the zombie version 20:54:23 "zombie version"? 20:55:23 araneida is dead as a public project, but my app still uses it 20:57:38 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:57:47 There are still a few araneida users out there. 20:57:52 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:57:55 lisppaste still runs it, for example. 20:58:26 fairy nuff 20:58:36 in my hands it's becoming a bit linux-only threads-only 20:59:08 http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/03/090312-wristputer-01.jpg 20:59:16 that is about the geekiest thing I've ever seen 20:59:32 but I can't see any compelling reason to port this stuff to hunchentoot given that I already know how araneida works 20:59:37 -!- hbock [n=hbock@198.7.232.229] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:37 voidengineer: lacks a chording keyboard :/ 20:59:53 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:00:01 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 21:00:03 and it looks like more endurance-oriented variant of various older stuff :) 21:00:04 hehe 21:00:45 -!- kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:02 also, I want a display placed on goggles/glasses 21:01:06 kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:01:11 yeah same 21:01:24 3D display at that 21:01:35 ... lets make it a LispM at the same time :> 21:01:44 course 21:01:49 Dream big: Place the display in prescription contact lenses! 21:01:55 lol 21:02:14 nyef: it's actually possible and partially available 21:02:26 I decided not to for practical reasons :) 21:02:41 (it's easier to remove glasses than contact lenses) 21:02:51 (Seriously. When I wore glasses on a regular basis, a clip-on display for them was reasonable. But these days I wear contacts, and would rather have something that works that way.) 21:03:20 nyef: I need _big_ sunglasses, so why shouldn't I use them? :D 21:03:21 i want display connected directly into the brain 21:03:24 yeah, but you wear sun glasses I imagine 21:03:28 (I have 20/20 sight though) 21:03:46 stassats: I'm planning of skipping display for that :D 21:03:48 no wait, most of us don't see the sun 21:04:03 The sun is a myth. 21:04:10 voidengineer: I have window to south /3 21:04:13 *:/ 21:04:29 the sun, of java fame? 21:04:42 :| 21:04:48 no, the glowing fusion reactor one 21:05:04 also, sunglasses are useful for flying 21:05:46 vy annotated #76981 "sbcl (1.0.24.48) bug?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76981#1 21:05:56 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250036.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:06:23 Above `PERMUTATIONS' function works without a problem in CMUCL, but SBCL complains about it. Any ideas? 21:06:30 enterprise ready java fame, actually. 21:06:49 omg, did the tokamak have a meltdown? 21:07:29 c|mell [n=cmell@y192002.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 21:07:51 -!- KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:07:54 vy: (permutations (remove item items :test test) :test test) 21:09:10 berndj: no, it's gravitational, not tokamak, and it's been stable for quite long time. The thing, it runs without cover and no-one has balls to try making one 21:09:35 stassats: Bah! Thanks. 21:10:04 must've been expensive to buy enough hydrogen to achieve containment 21:10:48 *housel* is glad the Designer spared no expense 21:12:16 housel: yeah, nothing spared. he left that mad automatic algorithm and we are lucky we landed near good result >_> 21:13:19 vy: did you understand TCO? i have a small example 21:13:49 stassats: I "hope" I did. But I want to hear your example as well. 21:14:14 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 21:14:26 ... how evil would it be to sell someone hunchentoot+CFFI as C++ webserver? 21:15:36 probably not much worse than selling them a c++ web server 21:15:52 -!- lemonade` [n=no@pool-72-75-92-89.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:15:53 lemonade`_ [n=no@pool-72-75-92-89.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:00 -!- dan_b is now known as fnrttc_b 21:16:08 gone to brighton on a bike 21:16:10 about as evil as all the fat cat managers building nearly everything in IT on Java 21:16:30 HE SAID THE WORD! 21:16:37 *voidengineer* rus 21:16:57 *voidengineer* runs also 21:16:58 as for evil, there is something called libcgi.so - for writing CGIs in C 21:17:42 berndj: C isn't as bad... it's running modules written as C++ dynamic libs.... 21:17:45 hi, how would I map a list of functions to a list of values? ie. '(#'print #'print #'print) to '(1 2 3) print 1, print 2, print 3 21:18:12 vy: (defun fun (a) (declare (type (signed-byte 32) a)) (if (zerop a) 0 (fun (1- a)))) 21:18:36 compare with (declaim (optimize speed (safety 0) debug)) and with (optimize speed (safety 0) (debug 3)) 21:18:42 (mapcar 'funcall ...) ? 21:18:56 -!- ferada [n=user@e179232007.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:19:31 egn: (map 'nil #'funcall (list #'print #'print #'print) '(1 2 3)) 21:19:32 (mapcar 'funcall (list #'print #'print #'print)) 21:20:02 fe[nl]ix: thanks 21:21:24 -!- deego [n=user@74.255.63.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:29 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-98-116.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 21:24:25 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:26:05 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:31 stassats: Both produce the same disassembly output? 21:27:02 vy annotated #76981 "tco" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76981#2 21:27:02 francogrex [n=franco@91.178.116.86] has joined #lisp 21:27:04 vy: s/debug 3/debug 0/ 21:28:06 hbock [n=hbock@pool-96-238-49-94.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:13 stassats: Same output? 21:28:50 no 21:29:19 (optimize debug) == (optimize (debug 3)) hence same output 21:30:23 vy annotated #76981 "tco2" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76981#3 21:30:28 (ffi:clines "#include ") 21:30:41 oops sorry wrong window 21:30:42 -!- judicaster is now known as jc 21:31:02 TML [n=joey@unaffiliated/tml] has joined #lisp 21:32:08 stassats annotated #76981 "output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76981#4 21:32:33 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d8295c.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:32:45 so what's all this fuss about clojure these days? 21:33:17 vy: perhaps you have global a declaration 21:33:34 (declaim (optimize (debug 0))) first 21:33:36 stassats: Let me restart SBCL. 21:34:43 stassats: Same result. Could it be related with different SBCL versions? What's your SBCL version? 21:35:53 1.0.23.70 21:36:44 Mine is 1.0.24.48 21:37:32 the same in 1.0.25.54 21:41:13 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@74.125.59.1] has quit [] 21:41:24 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:57 vy annotated #76981 "tco3 SBCL 1.0.24.48" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76981#5 21:42:31 -!- hbock [n=hbock@pool-96-238-49-94.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:43:42 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:33 vy: well, you didn't change the name fun->tco-fun 21:45:58 Um... Ok, I'll be back in a moment. 21:46:12 *vy* looks for something tough enough to hit his head. 21:46:58 stassats: I now see the distinction very clearly. Thanks so much. 21:49:20 -!- vy [n=user@88.227.108.22] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:50 -!- gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-150-26.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 21:51:23 -!- lemonade`_ [n=no@pool-72-75-92-89.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:51:33 lemonade` [n=no@pool-72-75-92-89.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:01 josemanuel [n=josemanu@31.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:54:21 -!- rullie_ is now known as rullie 21:55:09 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:56:23 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 21:58:34 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 22:00:21 rpg [n=rpg@97-127-64-180.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:47 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-33-76.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:12 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 22:09:00 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:21 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless297.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:11:48 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:41 Anyone knows if the output of the disassemble function can be used in an assembly program? 22:13:18 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:13:54 to some extent 22:14:03 but what for? 22:15:03 I guess it depends on the disassemble in question 22:15:12 actually just to test. Say I have the toy function (defun add (x y) (+ x y)) and then issue (disassemble 'add) in sbcl 22:15:51 i want to see if I take the result and use it with flat assembler for example would it work? 22:16:18 verbatim, no 22:16:23 oh 22:16:38 like what needs changing? 22:16:47 the output is not even the whole function 22:16:48 in this specific example 22:17:00 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:17:25 missing functions, which add calls 22:17:25 so it's not really a complete disassembly 22:17:55 like this one : CALL #x220001C0 ; GENERIC-+ 22:17:56 francogrex: ; A5: 4C8D1C25C0010020 LEA R11, [#x200001C0] ; GENERIC-+ 22:17:59 ; AD: 41FFD3 CALL R11 22:18:01 sorry for noise 22:18:14 now, with inlining, you might change that :) 22:18:40 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:40 or better declaring types 22:19:17 ok both x and y are integers 22:19:46 can your processor handle bignums? 22:19:56 what do you want to achieve? 22:20:00 yes also 22:20:11 achive? 22:20:29 I want to see if I can take a CL function 22:20:43 and recode it in assembly 22:20:50 just a test 22:20:56 it is already coded in assembly 22:21:20 yes I know; but like to use it without the sbcl environment running 22:21:34 no special need eally 22:21:43 but helps me understand how it works 22:21:46 applying some effort, sure you can 22:21:48 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@66.166.232.134] has joined #lisp 22:22:22 francogrex: the output of disassemble is relative to sbcl's runtime environment 22:23:53 francogrex, http://cs.indiana.edu/~aghuloum/compilers-tutorial-2006-09-16.pdf 22:24:10 nice txt about simple lisp compiler 22:24:28 scheme though, but that not so important 22:24:40 tcr: i see. so disassemble only helps to have a rought idea how the function is built 22:24:40 To make use of the assembly you have to know about sbcl's runtime environment, its calling conventions, its data layout, and probably more 22:25:20 MitkOK [n=Mitko@94.155.50.250] has joined #lisp 22:25:28 You can see what it'ss compiled to 22:25:41 milanj: thx for the link 22:27:31 np 22:28:26 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-4db42e9c.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 22:28:30 yoyoyo 22:28:40 hi guys 22:28:55 how would you rid a list of its last item? 22:28:59 fjs_ [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-98-116.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 22:29:20 butlast ? 22:29:24 I'd first think about why I want that 22:29:38 If I come to the conclusion that I'm not doing something stupid, I'd use BUTLAST 22:29:39 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-98-116.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:43 -!- fjs_ is now known as fjs 22:29:47 robewald_ [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:53 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:31:11 -!- francogrex [n=franco@91.178.116.86] has quit [] 22:31:29 -!- robewald [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:31:46 stathis_ [n=stathis@ppp206-128.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:32:13 -!- stathis_ is now known as Beket| 22:32:41 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@66.166.232.134] has quit [] 22:33:28 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:33:45 btw, for a test, I put "lisp torrent" into google... porn appeared by second page 22:34:34 xach.livejournal.com is porn? 22:34:56 p_l: rule 34 22:34:57 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:07 stassats: yeah 22:35:56 unfortunately I'm pretty sure that link didn't lead to a movie with hot female lisp programmers >_> 22:36:06 yes, but is that lisp porn or lithp porn? 22:36:16 rofl 22:36:21 you're bad 22:36:23 hot parenthesis and half-naked lambdas 22:36:56 ... and interracial version would be lisp, haskell and erlang making out >_> 22:37:14 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:37:22 p_l: I actually happen to know a hot female lisp programmer (: 22:37:27 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:07 schme: And I happen to know a batshit insane bisexual programmer who offered sex for a shell server :D 22:38:21 unfortunately, she doesn't like lisp 22:38:37 ok, that's just nasty 22:38:39 next! 22:38:47 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-235-227.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:38:52 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-235-227.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:01 *p_l* started coding his TC bindings with Emacs being shown on projectors in classroom.... 22:39:18 and people where like "wtf1? 22:39:46 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:40:04 *were 22:41:01 the fact that most of the stuff was swig module didn't help my case 22:41:14 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-099-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:16 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:45:51 -!- jc is now known as comex 22:46:40 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:48:56 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Success] 22:59:26 well, now that I've got weblocks working, I'm building a small CMS on it :) 23:00:43 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 23:00:45 neerolyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 23:00:47 -!- neerolyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Client Quit] 23:04:09 -!- Beket| [n=stathis@ppp206-128.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:04:12 Beket [n=stathis@ppp206-128.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:04:17 -!- MitkOK [n=Mitko@94.155.50.250] has left #lisp 23:06:11 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AA7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:06:23 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 23:17:48 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #lisp 23:18:55 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:11 -!- berndj [n=berndj@41.6.34.87] has quit ["night"] 23:25:58 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:27:06 kefka` [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 23:27:08 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 23:27:52 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:28:46 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 23:29:00 maskd- [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #lisp 23:30:30 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:30:31 The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087B536.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:44 -!- tetha [n=hk@pD9EE4D1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:30:47 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:54 tetha [n=hk@pD9EE4D1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:28 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 23:32:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:05 -!- maskd- is now known as maskd 23:33:05 -!- tarbo_ [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:33:10 magnus_ [n=magnus@83.209.81.20] has joined #lisp 23:33:37 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-9ba162ed55552869] has joined #lisp 23:33:55 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:10 -!- kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:20 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:59 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B536.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:38:14 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@31.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:38:35 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 23:38:38 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-50-225.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 23:39:01 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 23:39:33 -!- comex is now known as judicaster 23:41:01 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:41:55 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:57 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:19 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 23:44:37 I used clbuild to install cl-sqlite by adding it as a get_tarball project, that seemed to work fine 23:45:16 but (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'cl-sqlite) then gives 'component "cl-sqlite" not found' 23:46:09 the clnet page for the package says to just install using asdf as normal 23:46:23 but I thought that's what clbuild did :) 23:47:35 miravalh [n=opera@pc-22-168-160-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:19 -!- miravalh [n=opera@pc-22-168-160-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:48:32 miravalh [n=opera@pc-22-168-160-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:26 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp206-128.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:50:34 ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 23:50:48 spacebat: see your asdf:*central-registry* variable 23:50:50 does cl-elephant work for anyone on SBCL? 23:51:23 ignotus: I'm in the process of making it work form mine :-) 23:51:33 ignotus: I hope it will 23:52:06 rstandy: I get this, when I try to open a bdb database: debugger invoked on a ELEPHANT:BDB-DB-ERROR in thread #: Berkeley DB error #NIL: Unknown error 17825803 23:52:18 Beket [n=stathis@ppp206-128.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:52:27 -!- rpg [n=rpg@97-127-64-180.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [] 23:52:29 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp206-128.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:52:35 spacebat: you should add your clbuild asd directory to asdf:*central-registry* 23:53:06 ignotus: yeah, me too, and I dont know how to debug it ;-/ 23:53:24 rstandy: :( I don't know either, this is the first time I want to use this lib 23:53:32 ./clbuild lisp 23:53:45 it will do this automatically 23:53:51 thanks rstandy I'll try that 23:53:54 ignotus: so let's share progress, if any :-) 23:54:34 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:54:40 i.e., don't set asdf:*central-registry* manually 23:55:22 rstandy: ok, Iam going to shoot an email to their mailing list about this 23:55:49 I built sbcl last night then installed clbuild, and everything worked find 23:55:51 fine 23:56:14 spacebat: try elephant...:) 23:56:17 clbuild can install stuff it knows about, but I had to tell it how to get cl-sqlite 23:56:20 spacebat: yes ./clbuild lisp will add to asdf:*central-registry* by default, but if want to run your lisp as usual, you must add the directory of clbuild system directory manually 23:56:51 so the cl-ppcre example worked fine as installed by clbuild and loaded by asdf 23:56:56 ignotus: have you installed elephant through clbuild? 23:57:09 rstandy: yes 23:57:10 but when I had it install cl-sqlite, asdf says it can't find it 23:57:40 spacebat: uhmmm 23:57:57 so I'll look at the central registry 23:58:53 ouch elephant has a mountain of deps 23:59:19 spacebat: try this: (push #p"/path/to/clbuild/systems/" asdf:*central-registry*) 23:59:59 its already there