00:02:32 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:59 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 00:05:51 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:21 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@253.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 00:11:05 -!- younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:13:25 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 00:15:29 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 00:16:28 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:18:35 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BD08.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:18:54 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE001310a5e799-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:59 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:20 -!- karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:30:35 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-170.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 00:30:55 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:31:51 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 00:32:35 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:00 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:10 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-62-149.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 00:36:42 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-62-149.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 00:37:01 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.228] has joined #lisp 00:37:02 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 00:37:35 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-62-149.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:38:26 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:58 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:02 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:39 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:57 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:52 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:50:48 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:51:15 rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:24 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:54:15 hi, when i do (loop for row in (query "select blah")), the query is only evaluated once right? 00:56:10 right 00:56:39 thanks 00:59:56 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:20 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp12-217.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:02:05 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:10 theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 01:03:52 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@82.83.99.137] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:05:17 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 01:07:06 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:08:28 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has joined #lisp 01:09:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:13:51 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:31 sunwukong [n=salvi@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 01:17:15 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has left #lisp 01:18:07 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:24:24 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:24:31 -!- klaid [n=user@ip68-99-51-31.cl.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:28:51 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:30:54 Strav [n=user@dsl-60-93.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 01:32:04 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 01:33:33 he, I've been trying gtkairo of mcclisp's bindings for gtk2 and while it seems very close to be usable and actually, pretty neat, I wonder: what's the recommended lisp gtk lib (that's actually usable)? 01:34:00 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087EC10.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:42 mcclisp? you mean mcclim? 01:34:56 argh yea. 01:36:43 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:36:55 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:40:45 -!- Strav [n=user@dsl-60-93.aei.ca] has left #lisp 01:41:04 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:41:15 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A114A.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:43:28 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:43:33 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-59-246.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:44:37 freelab [n=freelab@58.63.89.144] has joined #lisp 01:44:52 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 01:45:20 -!- gueux [n=g@d193-152-246.home3.cgocable.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:48:27 rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:49:00 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-109-192.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:49:01 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:49:55 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:50:44 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-87-237.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:51:34 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:37 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 01:56:56 -!- spec[afk] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB!"] 02:00:38 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-130-21.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:11 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.228] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:05:54 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-59-246.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:14 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-175-34.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:08:26 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-218.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:14:12 -!- stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:14:14 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:14:21 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-152-252.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:14:57 stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:16 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:18:12 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 02:18:38 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:43 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:22:20 -!- masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:24:43 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 02:24:49 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 02:27:00 antgreen [n=green@CPE001310a5e799-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:21 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:06 is this possible on vim? http://www.ozymandias.dk/emacs/vj-complete-completion-ui.png 02:31:44 Check out limp or nekthuth, I think they both do that. 02:31:52 #lisp is not very vim friendly 02:32:04 Using omnicompletion in vim. 02:35:38 in that case i don't think i've setup my limp properly cuz it aint doing it 02:37:28 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:39:09 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 02:40:25 Ah, well, I don't know as much about limp as I do nekthuth :P 02:40:42 but if you look for tic, he might be able to help you. 02:40:52 tic: Around? 02:41:26 that screenshot is a first grade perversion... Vim, using some special Lisp support, editing elisp files 02:44:17 yoonkn [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.71] has joined #lisp 02:44:55 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:28 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:50:37 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:51:46 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:10 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:54:15 cl-who generates sources in a line of code, is there someway to tell it to format its output in human readable form 02:54:54 <_3b> (with-html-output (... :indent t) ...) 02:55:03 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:40 i've no problem with indentation, but i want some new line characters in there 02:55:42 how do i get that 02:55:58 <_3b> :indent t adds newlines too 02:56:15 oh sick 02:57:45 <_3b> watch out for extra whitespace in textarea and pre and such though 02:57:56 thanks :) 02:58:56 *_3b* had to do some DB cleaning after realizing that every edit was adding a newline or 2 to a few fields :) 03:00:33 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:00:34 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:01:35 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:37 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:02:52 cipher [n=cipher@pool-71-184-152-81.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:16 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.244.217] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:08:54 rullie: use a DOM inspector instead of just viewing the source 03:12:55 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:12 dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has joined #lisp 03:14:19 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:14:19 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:57 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE001310a5e799-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 03:21:26 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:28:04 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:29:49 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:35:34 depending on your taste, you might like https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/655 03:41:57 -!- tetha [n=hk@pD950FE3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:42:06 tetha [n=hk@pD9EE60B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:10 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:45:46 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:51:18 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:52:45 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:58:56 hmmm... anyone here with experience in gaining VC/angel funding for a CL project? :) 04:02:56 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:00 p_l: Heh. Probably not the best year for it. However, Paul Graham has basically a whole website devoted to it.. 04:06:47 p_l: And, in fact, Y-Combinator would probably be on the short list for any CL vencap projects. 04:07:52 aja: Right now I'm gathering info. An old idea that got scrapped two years ago resurfaced in my mind after I was (again) forced to work with a certain "product" 04:08:18 the thing is, I do not want to move to states, and Graham is known to heavily advocate this :) 04:09:34 p_l: Perhaps. Still, his essays and the other stuff at YC would likely be of interest. He does certainly have his detractors, but he's and old school CL guy who now does VC. That said, VC in the US (perhaps the world) is going to be pretty hard to come by for the foreseeable. 04:09:56 p_l: Might need to go the old freinds-and-family route. Which is a bit dangerous to your relationships. 04:10:09 aja: Reading his essays is what brought me to CL and startups :D 04:10:18 friends-and-family would be a bit... hard 04:10:37 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.3.64] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:10:46 What area is the idea in? 04:10:48 <_3b> there's always the day-job-and-ramen route :) 04:11:26 _3b: Right now it's studies, ramen & pitying family for rent money ;-) 04:11:44 p_l: :) 04:12:00 _3b: I find the "give up sex, dating, going out, watching tv, listening to music" things hard. :-) 04:12:18 aja: who says you have to give up the first two? :) 04:12:21 <_3b> yeah, that part can be rough :p 04:12:38 *p_l* gave up 1st, 2nd, 4th already 04:12:46 pstickne: If you're working a day job and trying to get a startup up an drunning, that's pretty much what you need to do. 04:12:49 p_l: you are missing out on the 2nd.. 04:13:08 aja: depends what you mean by "dating 04:13:09 " 04:13:14 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:13:29 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:13:37 pstickne: I sort of stopped feeling the need at some point. Not like I was successful, ever 04:13:52 (more thanks to psychological stuff than physical) 04:14:14 but we were on topic of startups, not Significant Others :P 04:14:43 p_l: That's my point. Your startup becomes your significant other. At least for the first year. 04:15:56 for ~£10k I could finance myself + probably two deployment servers... 04:16:12 (for a year) 04:16:29 <_3b> do you really need that much hardware to start out? 04:16:38 p_l: That's not vencap. That's a credit card. 04:16:57 aja: I've got credit rating of 0 04:17:40 p_l: I hate to break it to you, but if you can't raise 10K on your own, there's no venture capitalist who'll even look at you. 04:17:41 idiotic bank didn't even give me a normal VISA Electron and quite pointedly told me they do not offer credit facilities to me 04:18:18 aja: that's the bottom line. I can probably raise similar amount 04:18:55 and that's including _all_ finances needing to survive etc. 04:19:23 Right now, I'm going to develop some prototype that can serve as a demo and find some developers :) 04:22:30 (in case you are wondering: Education Web software) 04:24:07 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 04:30:01 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:30:16 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:34:43 Hmm, can't you earn 10 grand working part time? 04:36:04 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:39:57 Zhivago: I'm looking at this, at the moment. Right now I'm unemployed, full-time student 04:40:29 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:42:11 And in a way, I had chosen a bad area for my skillset and personality (though it's time for a new job hunt) 04:42:17 <_3b> so you mean site that educates, or site that supports some external educational whatever 04:42:31 <_3b> *do you mean 04:44:01 _3b: site that supports an educational facility, possibly including some e-learning stuff 04:44:11 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@x250004.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:45:49 <_3b> sounds like a field that has lots of room for improvement from what i've heard :) 04:46:45 -!- beach`` is now known as beach 04:47:01 _3b: The one we have at my university sucks. At least in the way it is used 04:47:34 Good morning everyone. 04:48:54 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-152-252.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 04:48:55 good morning, beach 04:48:59 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:49:32 hello beach 04:50:23 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 04:55:15 _3b: oh, and of course the one we have is written in Java :) 04:55:56 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:56:06 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:56:51 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:57:49 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:57:52 <_3b> yeah, java can be annoying if it doesn't have a good reason 04:58:49 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-99.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 04:59:33 <_3b> (not that i can really complain when i'm writing stuff in flash :) 04:59:58 jestocost [n=cmell@y192002.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 05:01:00 it's also completely prioprietary. And I still can't get around the fact that we do not have centralised single sign-on 05:01:21 wait seriously? 05:01:22 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:01:33 ianmcorvidae: srsly 05:01:50 that does not speak well of the people in charge of such things 05:01:54 LDAP is not that difficult 05:02:17 We have a working Active Directory (or at least NT Domain) and we have single account database spanning Windows, Unix and wireless access (EduRoam) 05:02:37 However, none of the web portals support it, even if you login from university machine 05:02:47 argh, that's a bother 05:02:59 nonetheless, doesn't speak well of the folks in charge 05:03:44 And I know it can be done even for websites - When I worked for telco, if I logged on a corporate windows machine, _all_ portals etc. were already signed in 05:08:41 dizpater [n=dizpater@99-203-82-63.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:08 *_3b* wonders how hard it would be to write an optimizer for avm2 bytecode 05:16:47 benny [n=benny@i577A0B9B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:17:20 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:27:22 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:08 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 05:31:20 liza0 [n=liza@76.76.161.214] has joined #lisp 05:33:37 ';;;;;;;;;;; 05:34:15 sorry .. that's ferret talk 05:34:30 at least he knows how to quote and comment. 05:35:08 he has not figured out CLOS yet... i'd be rich if i could just teach him 05:35:18 REPLeffect pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76684 05:36:32 Could someone explain to me why that paste loads fine at a repl, but requires me to evaluate the require line before I can compile it in slime? 05:36:44 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:57 REPLeffect: yeah, i can explain that. 05:37:16 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-132-29.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:17 would you mind? :D 05:37:23 -!- iaindalton [n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has left #lisp 05:37:28 REPLeffect: lisp is compiled, not interpreted. 05:37:39 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 05:38:34 REPLeffect: actually wait.,, 05:38:41 what error do you see 05:38:42 > 05:38:44 ? 05:38:50 package PDF not found, I believe. 05:38:53 hold on... 05:39:13 that's fine .. that's enough 05:40:00 yeah, that was the message 05:40:18 REPLeffect: i'm not going to give you the answer (sorry)... but i will ask some questions... 05:40:25 that's fine 05:40:31 I have some inklings about it. 05:40:39 but I'm not 100% getting the reasons. 05:40:44 REPLeffect: grand... so my first comment was right .. lisp is compiled. 05:40:54 I had a feeling ... 05:40:59 iaindalton [n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:01 it had to do with compile vs runtime 05:41:04 Would you ever _not_ use #' in e.g. mapcar, find-if, reduce, etc.? 05:41:10 at _compile time_ .. the package called PDF does not exist 05:41:22 iaindalton: yes, a lot of the time 05:41:34 REPLeffect: more importantly, 05:41:35 What would be a typical example? 05:41:50 at READ time, the package does not exist 05:42:10 thus the simple-reader-package-error 05:42:11 REPLeffect: it's in your nick ... Read Eval Print Loop 05:42:27 REPLeffect: i'm not sure if that error is portable, but yes. 05:42:37 sbcl 05:42:43 yeah, i know :) 05:42:47 I figured 05:42:53 I also wondered ... 05:42:57 iaindalton: gimme a minute and i'll get to you 05:43:10 REPLeffect: do you know of EVAL-WHEN? 05:43:15 yeah. 05:43:21 I had actually put that in 05:43:26 and got it to work 05:43:29 ok .. so lets do this in order... 05:43:34 but I wanted to make sure I understood. 05:43:44 READ comes first. 05:43:56 when the lisp READER sees PDF:foo 05:43:59 drewc: of course 05:44:32 REPLeffect: it needs to INTERN the symbol 'foo in the PDF package 05:44:40 makes sense 05:44:44 but ... 05:44:53 at READ time, the package does not exist. 05:45:39 so then my question becomes ... 05:45:59 why does (load "test.lisp") work (test.lisp with that code in it)? 05:46:28 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:46:38 REPLeffect: great question. 05:46:54 REPLeffect: does it work? 05:47:00 brandelune [n=suzume@pl064.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:47:06 Yeah, from a fresh sbcl REPL 05:47:42 without an eval-when? ( i believe you .. but ANSI says it could go either way) 05:47:58 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:48:01 yeah, the exact code as pasted -- just tried again with a fresh REPL 05:48:53 REPLeffect: ok... that's allowed... but not mandated.... 05:48:57 OK 05:49:04 I installed cl-pdf with asdf-install 05:49:18 I had thought that perhaps I'd screwed it up. 05:49:30 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:49:31 yeah, that's not relevant .. it's the (require 'cl-pdf) line that makes it interesting 05:49:53 when does that require actually run the REQUIRE function? 05:50:02 (short answer : run time) 05:50:30 so READ time is -way- before run time. 05:50:56 so, the cl-pdf examples don't show anything but going straight in to the pdf:fun-name function calls. 05:51:04 and the reader need the PDF package to exist in order to parse the pdf:foo forms 05:51:21 REPLeffect: yeah, i think you've got it. 05:51:36 I believe I had seen the (require :cl-pdf) in someone elses code 05:52:00 but I can't find a full example of how cl-pdf was intended to be used 05:52:07 REPLeffect: example code perhaps .. not production 05:52:21 REPLeffect: are you familiar with ADSF? 05:52:30 just enough to be dangerous :D 05:52:37 actually wait ,, that doesn't really matter. 05:52:59 So is the eval-when the only way to make this work? 05:53:15 or should the asdf calls do that for you? 05:53:28 (I had tried that earlier, and it didn't work either) 05:53:33 basically .. you have to load the code that defines the package called PDF before you READ a symbol into that package. 05:54:24 what you _really_ should do is create an asdf system that :depends-on :cl-pdf 05:54:26 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:54:34 and after that loads your file 05:54:37 OK, I was wondering if ... 05:54:45 (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :cl-pdf) should have done what I needed for me 05:54:51 but that doesn't help to understand _why_ id doesn't work 05:55:00 no ... 05:55:18 in the same file that's not going to work without the eval-when 05:55:43 OK 05:55:46 'cause again .. at READ time if the package doesn't exist ... 05:55:56 then package:foo will fail 05:56:02 that makes sense to me ... 05:56:11 even package::foo will fail .. 05:56:20 because, there are no symbols in that namespace. 05:56:27 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:56:47 the first will fail even if the package exists but 'foo is not exported .. right? 05:57:37 REPLeffect: FWIW, this could be considered a defect in CL's package system, or a feature. 05:57:43 hehe 05:57:51 but it's how it is.. get used to it :) 05:58:09 personally, i see it as both. 05:58:21 depends on whether it helps you at the time. 05:58:30 it's a feature when making a real system, and a flaw when doing something small 05:58:38 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:45 REPLeffect: i'll teach you a dirty trick ... 05:58:50 OK 05:58:51 but you did not get this from me 05:58:57 from who? :) 05:59:04 and you will never use this is production code 05:59:09 of course not. 05:59:15 use what? 05:59:16 you figured it out on your own 05:59:16 :D 05:59:20 #. 05:59:27 do you know #. ? 05:59:47 you mean something besides the eval-when, right? 05:59:57 yeah.. dirtier! 06:00:19 eval-when is dirty.. #. is dirty + never do that. 06:00:33 asdf is clean. 06:00:42 sh 06:00:42 yeah, I didn't like the eval-when 06:00:43 ish 06:01:01 It seemed asdf should make it work ... 06:01:21 just make an asdf system that :depends-on :cl-pdf 06:01:28 that's the right way 06:01:49 It seems strange, pardon my ignorance ... 06:01:54 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:02:01 That I should have to make an asdf system just to use another asdf system. 06:02:01 not really ... think of C 06:02:28 you need to #include headers before you can compile the system 06:02:57 actully .. that's not quite right is it.. 06:03:18 yeah, well, it is C 06:03:21 ok .. bad analogy . did i mention i've been drinking? :) 06:03:41 and I'm up late, so we're a bad combo :D 06:04:06 REPLeffect: you must be used to interpreted languages .. yes? 06:04:10 no 06:04:22 <_3b> you don't need to make an asd to use another, it just allows you to automate using the other asd 06:04:28 oh dear... then it should make sense. 06:04:47 I was aware that lisp is compiled, and that sbcl in particular has no interpreter. 06:04:54 RE`1`1097 06:05:03 fucking ferrets 06:05:38 I'm just trying to figure out how the cl-pdf author *intended* it to be used. 06:05:41 REPLeffect: so, think about COMPILE-FILE 06:05:52 REPLeffect: marco wants you to use ASSD 06:05:54 ASDF 06:06:28 if you are making a _program_ or _system_ that uses asdf. 06:07:00 if you're just playing .. use require at the repl, or in a file with eval when or .. my favorite, #. 06:07:06 so, you're saying it's a normal thing to make a system for every program? 06:07:20 (non trivial, of course) 06:07:22 yes, of course! 06:07:37 <_3b> making a .asd is as normal as making a makefile 06:07:45 I was waiting for that. 06:07:54 or have a kind of "load.lisp" that does necessary load/require etc. ;-) 06:08:13 p_l: yeah, if you hate everybody. 06:08:35 <_3b> if you make lots of trivial apps with lots of dependencies, just write a macro to load them in eval-when 06:08:44 p_l: are you awake again? 06:08:55 drewc: in the end the night is wasted :P 06:09:03 that's what you get for waking up at 1500 :P 06:09:13 p_l: fair enough :D 06:09:31 Beket [n=stathis@ppp12-217.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 06:09:31 -!- dizpater [n=dizpater@99-203-82-63.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:09:35 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:10:00 drewc: thanks for your help. The problem was along the lines of what I was expecting... 06:10:04 _3b: i'm not going to disagree, because i do that... except i #. rather than eval-when :) 06:10:33 I just didn't know if I was missing something that ASDF was supposed to do for me -- which it is and isn't, it appears. 06:10:47 Is, because the solution is to use asdf... 06:11:00 ... isn't because it isn't quite actually "doing it for me" :D 06:11:04 REPLeffect: it's not ideal for scripting and small systems... for sure. 06:11:26 if all you need is one file, go ahead and eval-when or #. 06:11:28 I just knew that the eval-when couldn't be the normal way to do it. 06:11:45 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:11:55 a load.lisp is probably the traditional way 06:12:19 traditional as in ... nobody does that anymore. 06:12:28 after that, mk:defsystem 06:12:48 (anybody still away can correct me if i'm wrong) 06:12:56 awake i mean. 06:12:58 hehe 06:13:03 freudian slip 06:13:05 or sober. 06:13:12 either/or 06:13:16 :D 06:13:18 "If you're away, please feel to correct me." 06:13:43 REPLeffect: #lisp is such a place that i might get corrected in a few hours. 06:13:56 yeah, I'm aware of that. 06:14:01 drewc: Franz seems to still do it load.lisp way :) 06:14:03 I've been lurking for a long time. 06:14:25 p_l: yeah, and they use if*. *cough*. 06:14:31 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 06:15:10 drewc: thanks for the help again. I'd better call it a night. 06:15:23 REPLeffect: cheers, glad i could help. 06:15:36 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:40 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:43 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has left #lisp 06:16:30 iaindalton: you still around and have a question? 06:16:35 *drewc* is on a roll today. 06:16:41 drewc: i'm still here :-) 06:17:00 I was wondering when you _wouldn't_ use #' in functions such as mapcar 06:17:36 <_3b> you would use ' if you want the function being called to be redefinable, you would use neither if you have the function in a variable 06:17:51 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp12-217.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:18:29 <_3b> ' also works better if the function hasn't been defined yet 06:18:39 iaindalton, #'foo gives you the function the symbol FOO points to, whereas 'foo gives you the name FOO itself. that's the difference. 06:19:01 iaindalton: what _3b said, and also when you want the global symbil-function and not a local function. 06:19:08 symbol. 06:19:14 -function. 06:19:43 So when comparing to python's map(...), mapcar can do more because of the special syntax? 06:20:18 <_3b> i'd assume you could do the same things in python, assuming the scoping distinctions apply 06:20:24 iaindalton: does python have local functions that can shadow global functions? 06:20:38 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:20:40 I'm not sure, but I think I've seen an example of one 06:21:01 Grymes [n=user@cpe-66-65-25-217.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:21:44 drewc, one thing Python does *not* have is proper closing over variables, leading me to a fun bug-hunting session the other day! ("What, you want *writable* variables in your closure? Why'd you ever need that when there are objects?!" was the reply in #python. mmm, blub...) 06:21:46 yeah, it seems to 06:22:28 iaindalton: #'foo expands to (function foo) 06:23:01 iaindalton: now, it is a convention of lisp functions to take a symbol when a function is required. 06:23:36 iaindalton: so, passing 'foo, which is really (quote foo), 06:23:58 will, in the end, cause a lookup of (symbol-function 'foo) 06:24:28 dysinger_ [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:24:36 iaindalton: the difference is when a local function (flet foo ()...) exists 06:24:46 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:24:54 (function foo) will point to the local function foo 06:25:07 'foo will point to a (defun foo ...) 06:25:15 alright 06:25:21 (really the (symbol-function of 'foo)) 06:25:39 also ... 06:25:46 at compile time... 06:25:55 drewc, I can just think of the params taking 'test, and there it seems like either way would be fine: #'eq.... or 'eq... Have a practical example of when it matters? :) (or I'm just too slow) 06:26:27 tic: ignoring package locks : 06:27:15 (flet ((car (thing) (second thing))) (values (funcall 'car '(1 2)) (funcall #'car '(1 2)))) 06:27:28 => 1 06:27:28 2 06:28:16 sneaky! like :AROUND methods except on non-GFs? 06:28:38 tic: yeah, but only local to the lexical scope of the flet 06:28:49 functions are not special 06:28:54 drewc, *nod* 06:29:14 hmm.. I just tried that piece of code, but SBCL told me I couldn't ignore the package lock. 06:29:16 see contextl for a way to make methods special 06:29:32 tic: sbcl is right .. don't do that :) 06:29:46 drewc, so... how did you execute your code then? 06:29:51 i didn't. 06:30:03 we can defun my-car and flet it 06:30:12 dejai [n=dejai@230.15.233.220.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:30:15 Oh, "ignoring package locks, [we can do this] ..." ? 06:30:19 but that would have been too verbose. 06:30:24 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:30:27 ya :) 06:30:32 Alright, sorry. 06:30:44 i bet we can do it somehow .. 06:31:04 some M-. -ing 06:31:23 *drewc* loves M-.-ing through his implementation 06:31:24 I really need to check up on ContextL; I've been told to look at it before in the context (pfft...) of my own object system. 06:31:42 tic: contextl is amazing, pascal 06:31:48 ... 06:31:58 pascalc is really quite smart. 06:32:05 Yeah, indeed. 06:32:50 iaindalton: wait.. did i answer your question? 06:32:58 and then some :-) 06:33:22 thanks 06:33:56 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:34:06 sweet. 06:34:50 I should try to document my thingie so I can get some input on it. 06:35:03 Dr. Costanza : or how i learned to stop worrying and love dynamic scope. 06:35:19 yeah, his dynamically scoped slots are ... interesting. 06:35:54 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.166.169] has joined #lisp 06:36:02 problem with the thingie is it's written in Python, but somehow I believe I'd get more useful info from the Lisp community than the Python community as it'd probably be more familiar to someone who has worked with CLOS. 06:36:53 <_3b> dynamically scoped slots sound useful 06:37:07 _3b: incredibly so. 06:37:37 and his latest addition is the ability to capture a dynamic environment. 06:37:49 as re-instate it somewhere else. 06:37:55 s/as/and 06:38:11 s/drewc/a-little-drunk-and-tired 06:38:53 so a dynamic closure, in so many words. 06:38:56 s,$,/, :-P 06:38:59 capture-and-reinstantiate -- is that somewhat akin to continuations? 06:39:45 tic: like yes, but for a dynamic environment rather than an execution environment ... 06:39:52 if that makes any sense. 06:40:08 it complements continuations. 06:40:17 and in fact that's why he did it.. 06:40:33 Aha. 06:40:43 ugh, this is all to crazy -- what a debugging nightmare! 06:40:48 'cause those of us using continuations needed the equiv. for a dynamic environment. 06:41:03 yeah, it can be indeed. 06:41:16 but less code == less bugs 06:42:10 and pascal took care of most of that long before i get to it :) 06:42:30 Sure! I'm not saying it's a bad thing, and I agree with the code statement. I just say from my personal experience mixing with code that sometime take abrupt steps in the execution path ends up being .. interesting to read. Backtraces really not saying much, and those kinds of problems. 06:42:47 fire alarm, thanks for all the fish ;-) 06:44:01 tic: oh yes, very much so. With a good delimited continuations implementation, it's not so bad.... 06:44:40 and by good i mean the interpreter in arnesi ... 06:44:48 used sparingly 06:45:21 <_3b> hmm, go tags can be integers... guess i shouldn't assume they are symbols then 06:46:02 _3b: (tagbody 10 (print 'foo) 20 go 10) 06:46:13 common basic ffs 06:46:30 i missed some parens 06:46:38 eeeep 06:46:40 but we get the joke right? :) 06:46:46 <_3b> nah, leave GO as a tag just to confuse people 06:46:53 I need to reinvent Basic in Lisp! 06:47:18 tic: tagbody exists just so you can do that. 06:47:18 <_3b> (tagbody 10 (print 'foo) 20 go 10 30 (go go)) 06:47:32 _3b: mean. 06:47:51 <_3b> for extra fun define some symbol macros and use those as tags too :) 06:48:10 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:48:12 drewc, wow, they were really forward-thinking back in 84 06:49:04 tic: and then some. X exists so you can do that, where X is somewhere in CL-land, and THAT is anything you might want do do. 06:49:38 *drewc* met qlisp today. 06:50:33 is qlisp a relative of qi? 06:51:18 http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/ <--- first link, from lispm 06:51:32 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 06:52:22 No dates.. makes me think qlisp is about as old as the rest of the stuff on dreamsongs 06:52:38 _3b: cool, now you can pull out those old home computer magazines and translate some programs ;-) 06:52:44 tic: it is indeed .. the first paper was written with McCarthy 06:53:08 tic: lisp is that old :) 06:53:22 drewc, qlisp or elephant lisp? 06:55:01 elephant lisp .. that was mccarthy-ism too right? 06:55:04 *drewc* googles 06:55:05 <_3b> were those the papers that talked about using the y combinator to do recursion in parallel? 06:55:29 drewc, he's into things that appear to have happened tomorrow 06:55:45 _3b: good gods no.. they just make a parallel let. 06:56:16 <_3b> drewc: actually, i think it is... seems to be in the multl.pdf 06:56:42 _3b: i read that one before and thought they were nuts .. it can't be ... 06:56:51 *drewc* looks again 06:56:55 <_3b> page 22 or so 06:58:30 *tic* heads off to work 06:58:55 oh man, QY .. there it is 06:59:56 oh well .. here i am again knowing nothing about nothing. 06:59:56 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:00:17 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:19 when i was a PHP programmer i was king of the world :) 07:00:25 <_3b> heh 07:01:16 <_3b> read any papers about xappings? those are fun too, in a different paralellization direction 07:01:41 My dad knows I'm teaching myself a programming language (called `Lisp' apparently) and the other day he told me, hey, I heard about this deal where you can get a free PHP book with a rebate. I told him thanks... 07:02:48 not that i can recall .. most of my reading have been in the STM area, and i thought that was the 'right' solution, in my problem space, untill some people i respect told me otherwise recently. 07:03:44 iaindalton: my second paying job as a develper ever was PHP, and i'll never forget how scary that codebase was. 07:03:56 <_3b> xappings are probably a bit more relevant to (a subset of) modern hardware than QY, but still limited applicability 07:04:25 iaindalton: my dad isn't a programmer... but he used to code in pascal, fortran, vb, asm and, yes, lisp (autolisp, though :P) 07:04:59 I know a bit of PHP, probably should finish learning it sometime. I remember reading the official tutorial, and the comments at the bottom of each function's page had people posting Unicode-safe versions. I thought, "Why isn't this in the code?" and went on to learn Python. 07:05:18 <_3b> xappings were from from cm-lisp if i remember right (cm-lisp being the higher level counterpart to *lisp for connection machines) 07:05:21 _3b: are xappings mentioned in winston and horn? the name rights a bell... 07:05:29 Beket [n=stathis@ppp12-217.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:05:40 and i seem to recall it was actual print i read it in, 07:06:08 iaindalton: learn lisp, and php will be simply a tiny subset. 07:06:21 one that you will still avoid :) 07:06:30 <_3b> not sure, don't think i've seen winston&horn 07:07:00 _3b: i've looked at *lisp .. i worked with a guy who worked on those. 07:07:20 rights a bell? wtf does that mean? 07:07:22 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 07:07:24 I remember hearing that PHP was important because onlike other HTML preprocessors, it had good syntax for accessing databases. That's probably not the case anymore though. 07:07:27 <_3b> seems to have been mentioned in cltl 07:07:32 *p_l* wonders how Bristol is within 15 miles of Aberdeen... and if offering to patch this would be taken as insult <--- looking through job offerts 07:07:48 <_3b> yeah, *lisp looks like fun, i want to implement a version for my gfx card at some point :) 07:08:03 iaindalton: "good syntax for accessing databases" && "php" => false 07:08:14 <_3b> cmlisp would also be fun, but xappings require a bit more compiler smarts 07:08:24 _3b: ahh .. cltl1 i bet... i read it briefly but don't remeber much. 07:08:34 -!- Grymes [n=user@cpe-66-65-25-217.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 07:08:47 appletizer [i=user@82.45.11.54] has joined #lisp 07:08:54 hyperbor1ean [n=none@89.18.3.66] has joined #lisp 07:09:25 iaindalton: that was never true! 07:10:20 PHP is still one of the most hideous languages when it comes to standard library support for db 07:10:27 php was easy enough for a designer to cut and paste, in '99 07:10:37 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 07:10:41 21st century, no excuse. 07:11:12 PHP was designed to be slightly more powerful SSI. Not for application development 07:11:28 it also has superb out of the box support for practically any OS 07:11:34 p_l: it was a damn good SSI too. 07:11:47 guaqua: doesn't run well on my palm. 07:12:16 guaqua: when you have near-zero requirement, being a purely interpreted language, it's not hard 07:12:18 and didn't traditionally run well anywhere that apache didnt' 07:12:45 -!- theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:12:49 and true, if a system could support apache, then it could support PHP 07:12:55 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:13:06 p_l: i'm not contesting any of the bad things you say about php. it sucks, it sucks big time 07:13:08 i bet there is no implementation of php for POPLOG! :D 07:13:19 you don't need more than basic I/O + malloc/calloc/realloc to port PHP... 07:13:33 PHP still gets a lot of use, right? 07:14:05 iaindalton: so does heroin. Still not a good idea. 07:14:12 <_3b> hmm, found a recent talk about xappings, that sounds interesting 07:14:16 still, I know some places where PHP is used but lacks some CL functionality support the OS well :P 07:14:20 *to support 07:14:44 *drewc* admits to having a CL app that was extensible in PHP 07:15:01 it was part of the requirements, and actually pretty easy to do. 07:15:05 lol 07:15:39 needless to say, i don't do work for those people anymore... because that's a silly requirements. 07:15:56 although ... they don't need me anymore, because they can extend it in php. 07:16:09 it's a lose-lose situation :D 07:16:12 xD 07:16:25 you could offer to write a PHP-like language that would expand into CL :P 07:16:50 yeah, but would i want to? 07:16:59 right :) 07:17:04 not at what they could afford to pay me :) 07:17:22 actually .... that might be fun. 07:17:35 but i'd want to fix the semantics while i did it. 07:17:44 and then it wouldn't be php... 07:17:55 it'd never work out. 07:18:20 php with macros 07:18:24 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 07:19:09 guaqua: macros are _not_ what makes CL great, contrary to what people believe. They are just a very large bonus. 07:19:34 even without DEFMACRO, CL + MOP would be pretty darn great. 07:20:09 of course, you would be able to write defmacro ... 07:20:27 speaking of lispyness in other languages, does anyone program functionally in python? I see a few examples on the Web of how it's possible, but they usually end in "...this isn't very Pythony, so don't do it." and a lot of useful functions seem to be missing from functools 07:20:50 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 07:20:51 i don't know how much harder for example MOP design would have been 07:20:53 *_3b* avoids python in general 07:21:21 guaqua: you do not need DEFMACRO for CLOS. 07:21:32 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:21:53 iaindalton: it's possible. if you know how to do it, it's quite a bit quicker than writing purely procedural code 07:21:53 ENSURE-CLASS, ENSURE-METHOD etc are more than enough. 07:22:40 drewc: yes. i'm thinking more in the lines of "without macros, how long would it have taken them to implement and prototype these things in the first place" 07:22:43 I tried translating an exercise from A Gentle Intro... and I had to write a bunch of things that weren't in functools, like find-if 07:24:13 guaqua: yes, i understand that. Macros are not needed to prototype CLOS. macros are for syntax, but the functional CLOS (AMOP) is not that much more verbose. 07:24:37 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-57.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:24:48 guaqua: CLOS is a lot more than DEFCLASS, DEFGENERIC and DEFMETHOD 07:24:58 i'm not very well-versed on the secrets of CLOS, MOP et al 07:25:34 guaqua: i know, that's why i'm speaking up :)... cause i _am_ :P. 07:25:37 :) 07:26:24 *drewc* has had beer with kiczales 07:26:49 it's quite liberating to read the tutorials and specifications, especially after java. should probably start a project with a heavy dose of CLOS 07:27:34 guaqua: CLOS was the most important thing i learned from CL. If your protocols are extensible enough, you don't need macros. 07:27:35 Patzy_ [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:52 but, have macros anyway, because your protocols are not extensible enough. 07:27:57 viva lisp! 07:28:19 or have macros if extending your protocols is too verbose (: 07:28:24 *drewc* is out of control! 07:28:57 ya, that too :) 07:29:05 drewc: btw, does your submitting LOL to clbuild mean that you consider it ready for use by normal folks? (: 07:29:17 poor drewc 07:29:25 antifuchs: yeah, it seems like it's pretty damn close. 07:29:28 drewc: You have users! xD 07:29:31 awesome 07:29:54 *_3b* needs to look at that at some point 07:30:05 i still think it's terribly unfinished, of course, but it has been in production for some 4 years now... 07:30:21 now we need wtf back, and someone needs to write omg 07:30:28 so it's probably useful for someone else. 07:31:18 p_l: my clbuild/cl-librarian-alike was called find-the-world! 07:31:24 (FTW!) 07:31:45 buahahahaha 07:31:55 proving that this can be taken too far ((: 07:32:13 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp12-217.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:32:18 _way_ too far :) 07:32:23 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:32:37 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:33:24 drewc: we need a macro package that would give a LOL-style Lisp (/me is reminded of LOLCODE... just lispy) 07:33:57 i actually have an LOLCODE->CL compiler somewhere... 07:34:10 don't you all? 07:34:55 I should really start hacking on SBCL instead of doing such silly things.. but the barrier to entry was a lot lower. 07:38:02 -!- hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:38:26 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:38:27 still, you've got a way of naming that makes marketing depts. scream :D 07:39:05 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:39:07 (just like Bell Labs... I wonder how their marketing felt when they've got "Plan 9 from Bell Labs" just after they managed to get UNIX as a brand working ;P) 07:39:08 true, but we are programming in 'lisp' after all. 07:39:37 unix? i'm not even circumsized! 07:39:51 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:23 you'd think lisp and unix would go together.... 07:40:32 i'll be here all week! 07:40:32 good morning 07:40:51 drewc: Is it in any way reference to "unix wizards" being spelled as "eunuch wizards" by a certain red headed witch? 07:41:17 p_l: ;) 07:41:31 *red haired 07:41:48 _3b: i have to admit that i don't understand QY at all, and i thought i read this paper. 07:42:34 <_3b> don't think i completely got it either when i read it 07:43:05 QLET, otoh, makes perfect sense to me. 07:43:25 and i guess i stopped there :) 07:44:11 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:45:42 <_3b> i've never really done enough of the theory stuff to internalize Y though, so i have to stop and think about that too, which slows things down 07:46:17 _3b: Y makes sense to me, but obviously i'm missing a bigger picture that Y is supposed to give me... 07:46:24 or what you said yeah. 07:47:42 g'day 07:48:00 <_3b> if i remember right, QY was effectively doing something like starting the next iteration before the current one finished 07:50:26 _3b: that seems to be what he's saying .. but unless i'm grossly mistaken (which is likely), it's a red herring, as he goes on do say that QY will perform worse than LABELS, but better than Y. 07:50:35 to say* 07:51:05 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:51:34 even that doesn't make sense to me in the context of what i know about (modern?) CL compilers... 07:51:38 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:51:39 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:52:09 <_3b> well, i suspect it assumes much different hardware from what we have these days anyway 07:52:22 i liked QLET though! 07:52:39 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:52:58 splittist [n=dmurray@131-92.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:53:00 morning 07:54:08 morning 07:54:16 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:54:55 <_3b> yeah, the constructs where you are being more explicit about what runs in parallel are probably more useful 07:57:44 <_3b> though i guess depending on what you are doing, QY might split things up at reasonable granularity too 07:58:38 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:59:19 <_3b> wonder if the bit about QY vs LABELS is making assumptions about the amount of work per iteration or number of processors or anything 08:00:40 What's the difference between apply and funcall? 08:00:48 Is there any advantage of Qlet over using futures? 08:01:03 iaindalton: If only literacy had been invented in your country ... 08:01:04 iaindalton: apply expects a list as its last argument. 08:01:24 Zhivago: I read the CLHS description, and it was kinda opaque 08:01:30 apply will also do concatenation for you. 08:02:08 So, I guess you could say it is a question of when the number of arguments in the call is decided. 08:02:37 alright 08:03:04 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 08:03:15 <_3b> drewc: though i guess QY is in a section called 'a curious example' so it may not actually be intended for real use :) 08:04:48 Hmm, all of that Q stuff looks very much like a kind of 'delimited future' system. 08:05:16 I wonder if the advantages outweigh the limitations. 08:05:22 ponch` [n=user@host71-249-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:05:56 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:06:11 -!- ponch` [n=user@host71-249-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 08:06:18 *drewc* has to skim the futures papers again. 08:08:52 phf [n=phf@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:35 -!- phf [n=phf@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:10:07 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-143-69.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:13:59 _3b: ok, i get QY. It's using EAGER qlambdas, and so can run the body of the lambda in parallel for every branch up until it actually requires the value returned by the recursive call. 08:14:21 if that makes sense ... 08:14:34 <_3b> sounds right, don't really remember the details of the paper 08:14:50 it is a little silly. 08:14:55 <_3b> but that matches what i remember of my understanding of it 08:15:13 <_3b> yeah, silly is good though, if it makes you think about things in different ways 08:15:25 indeed, i think scheme is silly :) 08:16:24 sulo [n=sulo@p57B4B6E4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:16:30 "what do you mean the empty list is true?!" .. "oh .. yeah, right." 08:17:31 I think it's perfectly reasonable for the empty list not to be false. 08:18:29 <_3b> would be reasonable for it to be neither true nor false for that matter 08:18:42 If lisp supported maybe :) 08:18:58 I think that having a single 'false' is sensible, either way. 08:18:59 <_3b> it supports (error "not a boolean") :) 08:19:19 But, I don't see people complaining that empty hash-tables are true ... 08:19:44 i had a good use case for subclassing NULL the other day. 08:19:50 I think the complaint is mainly due to people being used to leaving out null. 08:19:59 <_3b> you don't generally use a hash table as an interator though 08:20:27 i can't remember now, of course. It might have been iteration though, that's a good one. 08:21:20 <_3b> if we had hash-table iterators, it would be reasonable to expect them to be false when there were no more elements 08:21:28 i think i wanted something that was false through a long chain of functions, but was false for some good reason that something else should know about. 08:22:04 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 08:22:11 <_3b> yeah, generalizing false in addition to true sounds useful (if possibly confusing) 08:23:27 the empty sequence or collection, just for puns, could be false. 08:23:46 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f49b9.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:23:58 Well, that's the question -- why should empty lists be false while empty vectors are true? :) 08:24:31 -!- Patzy_ is now known as Patzy 08:24:39 As for iterator being false -- I think that would more be a 'stream state' rather than an iterator, since you'd expect an iterator to maintain its identity. 08:24:53 drewc: Sounds like a job for Perl 6's `but'. :-) return 0 but true; # or however that's spelled now, I'm completely out of touch with P6 08:25:02 And if the iterator maintains its identity, then you'd rather have a predicate upon it return false. 08:25:07 -!- iaindalton [n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has left #lisp 08:25:16 Zhivago: well, what is an empty vector? (make-array 0) ? 08:25:37 bx<.jeq.j q 08:25:46 Having one empty sequence object which is false is nice because you can use it like the do notation with the Maybe monad 08:25:56 drewc: #() 08:26:20 <_3b> the modern, too-dynamic-to-compile-efficiently solution would probably be to just add a generic function which is used to convert anything other than literal t or f to one of those 2 08:26:23 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-57.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:28 Good morning everyone. 08:26:45 Hallo spiaggia. 08:26:46 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-57.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:26:51 morning spiaggia 08:26:59 drewc: That's not empty -- how about (make-array '(0))? 08:27:15 but is terrible 08:27:23 A dimensionless array has one value. 08:27:51 Ah, sorry -- I misread that completely. 08:28:39 Isn't the distinction that an empty vector is an empty box (even a dimensionless box), whereas an empty is nothing? 08:28:53 s/empty is/empty list is/ 08:29:01 (too empty...) 08:29:04 splittist: so what is NIL then? 08:29:18 cheatcountry1 [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:29:34 drewc: the empty list (: 08:29:40 damnit :) 08:30:02 drewc: the answer you give when asked 'list all the x's' and there aren't any x's. 08:30:24 "hash all the x's" 08:31:47 i guess it's better than false == 0 :) 08:33:23 can i complain about (listp (cons 1 2)) now? 08:33:59 drewc: yes 08:34:45 well that's not a list is it? :) 08:35:03 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:04 sweemeng [n=sweemeng@118.101.41.97] has joined #lisp 08:35:20 i mean, what is that.. a list of 1 and 1/2 items? :D 08:36:52 you don't like impropriety in your lists? 08:37:10 Is there some sort of cardinal/ordinal distinction here? 08:37:28 i just want lists to actually exist. 08:37:34 yeah, you got it :) 08:38:22 <_3b> yeah, actual lists would be nice 08:38:54 <_3b> easier to compile them efficiently on a typed VM if you know cdr is always a cons or nil 08:40:28 <_3b> (at least i think it was faster with types when i tested at one point) 08:40:32 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:41:29 i don't care about speed, i just want to be able to iterate though something if it's a list, without iterating through it to find out. 08:41:45 which is guess is a speed concern actually :) 08:41:47 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:41:49 i guess* 08:42:12 _3b: I though VMs were (going to be) so insanely fast we didn't need to worry about programming languages any more, and just use javascript all the way down. 08:43:03 <_3b> splittist: this VM more or less is javascript, i'm just trying to avoid it looking like javascript at the surface layer :p 08:43:45 *drewc* sleeps now 08:43:49 heh 08:43:52 gnight. 08:43:57 <_3b> and for a lot of purposes, it probably is fast enough, even with the untyped conses 08:43:59 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 08:45:09 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:45:14 <_3b> still a few times slower than it needs to be, just due to lists and conses being indistinguishable 08:45:37 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest25854 08:45:41 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:45:57 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBAD3D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:47:48 <_3b> wonder how it would affect speed/space if i made conses with 2 CDRs, 1 for lists, and 1 for everything else... 08:48:33 <_3b> (pretty sure they are already huge compared to a normal lisp, so adding a few bytes might not be prohibitive) 08:49:40 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:51:39 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:54:49 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:55:43 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:56:09 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 08:59:18 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 09:04:54 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:07:20 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:07:39 morning 09:07:42 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 09:08:41 -!- appletizer [i=user@82.45.11.54] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:10:05 hello kiuma 09:12:11 so if yall ever have to work in php... do you use something like haxe or lisphp, or so you just work with the ugliness? 09:12:23 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:39 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 09:13:38 *H4ns* just codes some php and makes sure that he'll not spend too much time with it. 09:14:55 sohum: Or we use axe 09:15:05 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-138-129.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:17:22 p_l: ? 09:17:49 sohum: as in battleaxe 09:18:01 *p_l* thinks this attitude shows why he hasn't got a job 09:18:34 hahah 09:20:59 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:21:32 Fufie [n=poff@34.80-203-160.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:21:47 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:20 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 09:25:07 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-48.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:25:22 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:29:46 -!- freelab [n=freelab@58.63.89.144] has quit ["My God! Gone..."] 09:32:33 masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 09:35:09 -!- cheatcountry1 [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:38:31 _3b: what use would that be? Note that there is a compilation option in clisp to have one additionnal word with all lisp objects (including conses), for special purposes. But I don't see the point to have separate fields for separate types... 09:38:57 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:03 -!- sweemeng [n=sweemeng@118.101.41.97] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:39:12 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 09:39:55 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:41:39 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-57.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:51 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:42:59 -!- dejai [n=dejai@230.15.233.220.exetel.com.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:44:29 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA62D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:45:39 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBAD3D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:45:42 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 09:47:02 -!- sunwukong [n=salvi@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has quit ["bye"] 09:49:28 danlei`` [n=user@pD9E2C6BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:29 younder [n=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 09:52:53 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:55:02 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B5D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:14 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f49b9.adsl.enternet.hu] has left #lisp 09:58:10 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:01:57 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 10:04:24 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C46C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 10:04:44 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-135-48.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 10:05:39 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:12 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:24 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@216-177-194.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 10:12:53 <_3b> matimago: i'm compiling conses as class instances at the VM level, if the CDR can be statically typed, it avoids runtime type checks/dispatch when traversing a list 10:13:43 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B5D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:14:02 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@131-92.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:03 '(cons integer integer) is a valid typespec in CL. 10:14:17 The problem is that CL doesn't support recursive typespecs :( 10:15:04 <_3b> Zhivago: right, which was why i was considering adding an extra field as a fallback for non-list conses 10:16:03 <_3b> though arguably the problem isn't lack of recursive typespecs, it is lack of a distinct list type 10:17:15 Um, hmm :) Well, since lists are recursive structures in CL ... 10:20:12 valvola [n=fabiovio@193.204.78.80] has joined #lisp 10:21:06 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 10:22:14 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@82.83.99.137] has joined #lisp 10:22:50 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 10:23:45 <_3b> yeah, not much we can do about it at this point :) 10:25:06 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A612.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:27:02 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:27:24 _3b: in any case, you will have to check for NIL. 10:29:40 <_3b> yeah, testing for nil might be more expensive, depending on whether i can distinguish nil from unbound, but nil CDR would be rare in long lists 10:31:38 Hmm, how do you have unbound elements in a cons? 10:32:03 <_3b> at the vm level, not the lisp level 10:32:43 <_3b> actually would be 'undefined' not 'unbound' in VM terms 10:39:37 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #lisp 10:48:29 http://github.com/unya/cl-tc/ <--- tokyocabinet bindings, wip, but partially usable (1-1 C API conversion in tokyocabinet-sys, you have to use CFFI to define your callbacks) 10:50:59 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:51:17 -!- spec[afk] is now known as mrSpec 10:54:31 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f49b9.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:56:04 ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 10:56:29 hello, are the LispCast reddit clone videos/source available somewhere? 10:56:35 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:57:39 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@y192002.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:58:07 deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has joined #lisp 10:59:09 oh, I've found the videos on bliptv, now I only need the source 11:02:59 ignotus: might be wise to say which framework they used, as the reddit clone is somewhat standard with respect to showing off a lisp framework 11:03:44 madnificent: the guy used hunchentoot 11:04:51 ignotus: I, myself, don't know where the source would be, but there is bound to be someone here that does :) 11:05:13 jestocost [n=cmell@x250023.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:05:16 madnificent: thanks:) I will be idling here for the day... :) 11:05:43 -!- jao [n=jao@221.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:12:25 vinleod [n=Vincent_@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:55 -!- valvola [n=fabiovio@193.204.78.80] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:15:58 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [] 11:17:04 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.48] has joined #lisp 11:17:11 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 11:19:05 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:06 -!- liza0 [n=liza@76.76.161.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:24:23 liza0 [n=liza@209.59.101.211] has joined #lisp 11:32:12 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:33:04 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:33:32 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:38:18 ignotus: if you'd be asking "I want to use a web-framework in lisp", you might get even more response, as many people here seem to have a framework built in it (or at least something that looks like it) 11:39:03 with final response being "grab few packages, duct tape and spit and produce another web framework that suits your taste" :) 11:39:24 p_l: that is the conclusion of many things in lisp, no? 11:40:51 *madnificent* gets slightly more motivated to write examples 11:40:52 madnificent: Lisp in general seems to actually win against Perl in "There's more than one way to do it" competition 11:41:07 mathrick: i've pushed further ip-address fixes in perec 11:41:13 "Lisp, do it your way" 11:41:55 "Lisp, you just got a language creation toolkit. Now write a language in which you'll write your platform in which you'll write your app" 11:42:06 "Lisp - when the NIH syndrome hits the masses" 11:42:14 p_l: within budget! 11:42:29 attila_lendvai: hey, not that many lispers just yet :P 11:43:03 p_l: that took us 1.5 years to meet the first customer... and 2.5 to reach a point where we can finance ourselves from the venture 11:43:25 attila_lendvai: do you have a blog? 11:43:43 although the framework:project code size ratio is like 9:1 or even more 11:43:48 "Lisp, where P(NIH) reaches 1 by default, not because of corporate licensing problems" 11:44:05 *p_l* is in statistics tutorial 11:44:19 p_l: hah! we don't have licensing problems with that approach! 11:44:27 "Lisp, where P=NP" 11:44:44 stassats: you forgot "N=1" 11:44:48 madnificent: a blog?! do you think i had free time in the last 3 years for blogging? :) 11:45:00 attila_lendvai: What are you making? 11:45:09 ignotus: if you want to have an easily accessible framework for web-development, I have one that aims for that. But it is probably by far the best around. It could get you started though... It's rather 'simple' by design 11:45:39 attila_lendvai: I was just hoping to read up on your venture... it would've been a blog that I'd actually want to read :P 11:45:39 p_l: webapps for the hungarian gov 11:45:47 attila_lendvai: ok, I'll check them when I get home 11:47:03 madnificent: we've got a blog project *repo*, that holds a once functional blog engine based on our framework. since then the entire ui was rewritten from the socket level, so the code is bitrotten to say the least... :) 11:47:52 attila_lendvai: no, not looking for the software (the only example of my framework in combination with bknr is a blog), looking for the content :-P 11:47:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:48:01 attila_lendvai: any certain examples? Might be interesting to see how a govt. web app might look (from users standpoint) :) 11:48:14 attila_lendvai: pushing the "custom" in "custom software" to the limits, eh? 11:49:05 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:25 p_l: cl-perec looked rather nice (but hard to get the dependencies up) 11:49:46 antgreen [n=green@CPE001310a5e799-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:51 p_l: have you checked out bknr? (if you're going to check out multiple projects, that may be one worth looking at too) 11:50:14 p_l: their docs are fairly good, which makes it easy to overview 11:51:00 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 11:51:29 madnificent: right now I'm experimenting with weblocks, and I have taken some schooling in lol tonight :) 11:52:29 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:56 I was interested in symbolicweb but it got taken from net 11:53:22 topo [n=topo@87.223.39.79] has joined #lisp 11:53:24 hello 11:53:30 Hello. 11:53:53 -!- liza0 [n=liza@209.59.101.211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:54:09 liza0 [n=liza@76.76.161.2] has joined #lisp 12:06:18 LostMonarch [n=roby@host9-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:10:18 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:11:10 bbe [n=bbe@221.226.134.32] has joined #lisp 12:11:12 can i ask? 12:12:33 why do you ask? 12:16:11 why? 12:16:16 ummmm 12:16:50 topo: What is your question? 12:17:02 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:14 when i do (asdf-install:install :cl-ode) for installing cl-ode i get this 12:17:19 : debugger invoked on a CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR: 12:17:19 Unable to load foreign library: /usr/local/lib/sbcl/site/cl-ode/ode-0.8/ode/src/libode.so 12:17:21 why is that? 12:17:50 topo: is the offending .so there? 12:17:57 no 12:17:59 its not 12:18:01 (oh, by any chance are you using a mac?) 12:18:07 yes im using mac 12:18:09 leopard 12:18:23 why? 12:18:26 ah, macos likes to call dynamic libraries .dylib 12:18:30 instead of .so 12:18:44 is there a libode.dylib? 12:18:47 im gonna see 12:18:51 hold on 12:19:19 (if so, you might have to change the cffi foreign library definition to say that instead) 12:19:19 no 12:19:27 i dont have it 12:19:59 have you compiled the version of ode that (apparently) comes with cl-ode? 12:20:20 i think you dont need to compile when you do (asdf-install:install :cl-ode) 12:20:27 but yes i tried to compile too 12:20:36 with make 12:20:44 well, you should hhave a libode.dylib or similar somewhere as a result 12:20:51 but i get deprecated errors 12:20:56 this: 12:21:02 osx.cpp:324: warning: ReleaseWindow is deprecated (declared at /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Frameworks/HIToolbox.framework/Headers/MacWindows.h:11118) 12:21:03 osx.cpp:324: warning: ReleaseWindow is deprecated (declared at /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Frameworks/HIToolbox.framework/Headers/MacWindows.h:11118) 12:21:14 and this 12:21:15 make[2]: *** [libdrawstuff_a-osx.o] Error 1 12:21:15 make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 12:21:31 these are warnings 12:21:51 what does it means? 12:22:21 well, apparently you have the answer to your question: "because libode.so wasn't build successfully" 12:22:26 the warnings should be okay 12:22:28 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:22:37 but apparently you have actual errors SOMEWHERE, as well 12:23:02 and errors in C code are off-topic :P 12:23:53 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE001310a5e799-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:24:01 ummmm 12:24:54 you are saying the errors are in the c codE? 12:24:57 you might find the mailing lists/website for libode useful 12:25:18 (it's possible that the version that came with cl-ode isn't leopard-friendly, in particular) 12:25:27 yes, i'm saying that 12:25:35 ummmm 12:25:40 that's what you saying, actually 12:26:31 and whats libode? 12:26:31 well, libode is clearly failing to compile/link properly 12:26:44 is it something specific to the cl-ode binding? 12:26:54 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:54 do you have libode and libode development files installed? 12:28:04 no 12:28:16 libode seems to be what cl-ode is supposed to bind to 12:28:28 well, how do you expect that to work then? 12:28:36 hmm, ode, actually: http://ode.org/ 12:28:39 so i need to have libode for intel? 12:28:46 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 12:28:48 sellout- [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:52 Good afternoon everyone. 12:29:10 ummm i thought i just needed cl-ode 12:29:27 so its doesnt work as a library 12:29:47 (...) 12:29:47 "CL-ODE is a cffi wrapper around ODE" isn't that obvious from this sentence that you need ODE? 12:30:05 who/what uses ode? 12:30:12 topo: it appears that cl-ode comes with ode 12:30:23 but it clearly isn't compiling properly, for whatever reason 12:30:34 ummmmm 12:31:17 yes cl-ode comes with ode 12:32:26 maybe i need to look for a compiled version of ode for macosx 12:32:30 topo: what are you going to build with cl-ode? (/me couldn't find examples) 12:33:54 madnificent im just trying to use cl-ode with common lisp , but i get some errors when im trying to install it 12:34:04 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:34:25 jocke_ [n=jocke@dhcp-192-224.nomad.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 12:34:28 i cant compile neither 12:36:54 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:37:16 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:39:03 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:39:53 sellout-_ [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:40:24 ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 12:43:18 how can i know why is it not compiling? 12:43:47 look at the error messages 12:44:18 they are warnings: 12:44:19 osx.cpp:324: warning: ReleaseWindow is deprecated (declared at /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Frameworks/HIToolbox.framework/Headers/MacWindows.h:11118) 12:44:19 osx.cpp:324: warning: ReleaseWindow is deprecated (declared at /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Frameworks/HIToolbox.framework/Headers/MacWindows.h:11118) 12:44:28 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:44:33 and this 12:44:33 make[2]: *** [libdrawstuff_a-osx.o] Error 1 12:44:34 make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 12:44:54 topo: can you please paste your error messages to paste.lisp.org, completely? 12:45:00 topo: thank you. 12:45:04 ok 12:45:20 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:46:05 H4ns: here is the last part 12:46:06 http://paste.lisp.org/display/76694 12:46:21 -!- sellout- [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:46:32 topo: i am not interested. i just don't want to see C error messages scroll through this channel. 12:46:50 ok 12:48:24 m7g [n=stefan@78.43.227.147] has joined #lisp 12:48:43 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:49:42 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:50:37 C-M-space in slime will select the s-exp at point, and it's repeatable 12:51:09 not only in slime 12:51:48 always something new to learn :) 12:52:23 it's harder to unlearn something... 12:57:01 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:54 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:00:18 -!- ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:03:24 -!- topo [n=topo@87.223.39.79] has quit [] 13:03:26 -!- robewald [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:05:08 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:05:26 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:03 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has joined #lisp 13:19:39 -!- masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:20:55 robewald [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:12 dat [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:13 -!- robewald [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:23:22 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 13:25:39 robewald [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:32 -!- kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:37:29 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:37:35 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:35 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:42:36 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:43:00 p_l: do you use swig for cl-tc ? 13:45:08 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 13:46:12 joel`` [n=joel@115.99.2.68] has joined #lisp 13:46:15 -!- joel`` is now known as agnel 13:46:19 l_a_m: Yes 13:47:18 question - is it possible to create a special operator in common-lisp? 13:47:29 l_a_m: well, swig and some hand-crafted cffi code inserted with %insert("lisphead") :-) 13:47:37 (not yet in repo) 13:47:51 angel: As part of the lisp implementation, sure. 13:48:00 angel: Otherwise, consider using a macro. 13:48:02 agnel: no, but you can achieve the same effect with a macro. 13:48:11 p_l: do you know this error : http://paste.lisp.org/display/76697 13:49:07 oups 13:49:13 p_l: this error : http://paste.lisp.org/display/76697#1 13:49:19 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.228] has joined #lisp 13:49:20 first seen it. try removing "-module gstreamer" ? 13:49:26 ah 13:49:44 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:50:05 p_l: same error ... 13:50:14 sure, but macros expand at compile time, the effect I want to achieve is to define a real function and have only some arguments evaled. oh well, guess its not possible. 13:51:21 l_a_m: nope. I guess SWIG has some problems with gstreamer's includes (happens - I had it generate HDBFATA instead of HDBFATAL when certain stuff was referenced through preprocessor) 13:51:40 agnel: first you wanted a special operator, now you want a real function 13:52:15 l_a_m: I'd recommend copying function signatures and certain necessary type signatures by hand (or a script) into .i files instead of using %include 13:52:29 p_l: ok 13:52:29 agnel: what makes a function "real" in your context? 13:52:31 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.48] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:52:32 l_a_m: less troubles this way (that's what I ended doing) 13:52:39 p_l: i will try this idea 13:52:51 l_a_m: Also, why gstreamer0.8? 13:53:15 0.10 seems to be current upstream 13:53:45 agnel: can you give an example of a special operator that you might want to create, and then tell us how you can tell a difference bewteen it and a macro? 13:54:30 functions are data objects, macros are instructions to the compiler. 13:54:48 KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:55:05 spiaggia: am not arguing that a macro wouldn't do the job 13:55:50 I just wanted to know if it were possible to define a function that wouldn't have all its arguments evaled 13:56:12 agnel: no. 13:56:23 H4ns: cool. :) 13:57:24 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F351.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:45 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D22E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:58:25 agnel: you may want to look at one of the lazy-evaluation libraries for common lisp 13:59:01 agnel: as macros are somewhat transparant, they allow you to change the order of evaluation and the evaluation tout cours 13:59:22 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B5D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:23 agnel: without the arguments being known at compile-time 14:01:18 madnificent: that's fine. I will dig in a bit and see what I get 14:01:23 madnificent: thanks. 14:02:23 antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:33 yw 14:05:04 agnel: Watch out, you might write cl-haskell by mistake :P 14:05:16 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.3.64] has joined #lisp 14:05:55 *p_l* goes afk, time for some jobhunting, rent payment is due 14:05:56 p_l: do I feel some haskell-anger here? 14:06:07 madnificent: nope, I actually like Haskell very much :) 14:06:10 p_l: good luck! 14:06:37 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:07:09 I'm circa £200 behind ;_; 14:07:19 afk 14:07:45 madnificent: I did sort off get into erlang/haskell style pattern matching in lisp. my article was on reddit last week. http://www.hackerbliss.org/2009/02/functions-with-pattern-matching.html 14:08:34 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:09:04 agnel: I once wrote a pattern-matching thing for lolog (prolog in lisp), it is indeed trivial. I'd check out CLAZY if I were you, as it has an active user 14:09:22 oh sweet. 14:10:00 agnel: you can probably extend clazy with the pattern matching (which would be sweet!) if it isn't in there already (which would make it just as sweet) 14:10:02 madnificent: does it support full unification? 14:10:08 agnel: I used _ as a type :) 14:10:47 agnel: there are multiple prolog-implementations in lisp, mine probably one of the worst (but with lisp-syntax). Paul graham has one on 200LOC in his book 'on lisp' (free online) 14:12:18 borism [n=boris@195-50-212-64-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:12:22 acl uses modified version of paip prolog 14:12:35 stassats: acl? 14:12:51 allegro common lisp 14:13:04 stassats: now I don't grasp how it uses it... 14:13:18 madnificent: pattern matching results in abstraction leaks. what are your thoughts about this? 14:13:21 stassats: I would swear I had the wrong abbreviation in it 14:13:29 -!- hyperbor1ean [n=none@89.18.3.66] has quit [Client Quit] 14:13:36 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 14:14:13 agnel: not enough experience, but I don't agree with my limited knowledge. The goal is to find a solution and to define it in an easy way. This has nothing to do with the abstractions you provide to external users 14:15:01 madnificent: for allegro cache? 14:15:07 http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/8.0/doc/prolog.html 14:15:49 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 14:16:17 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:18:01 stassats: mine was much less nice. I just wrote it because I had to make some prolog-exercises but didn't have internet available (and no prolog installed) :) 14:18:13 madnificent: right. I'd go with what you're saying. I haven't experienced such problems in Erlang either (which pattern matches its function arguments). But it is a valid argument.. 14:18:56 agnel, madnificent: I don't know - I've definitely worked in haskell code that had a particular abstraction leak out into a separate module. I changed the structure of one bit of data here and suddenly I have to add extra underscores to this entire suite of functions 14:19:31 -!- borism__ [n=boris@195-50-201-100-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:20:03 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:20:14 sohum: how about using CLOS to abstract that layer away again? (just an idea) 14:20:38 madnificent: clazy looks like just what I was looking for. :) 14:20:38 basically, the pattern matching I've seen adds the constraints of (eq (length in-var) something) and you're accessing the input via NTH. 14:21:10 madnificent: but then you're not pattern matching any more 14:22:27 sohum: lisp is multi-paradigm, why stick with one? 14:22:48 madnificent: right, but the question was whether pattern matching leaks abstractions or not 14:23:06 hello, where can I find more info debugging clos stuff in sbcl? specificaly i want to find out why my method is never called. trace is rather cumbersome... any hints? 14:23:12 madnificent: moving to a different paradigm doesn't tell us anything about the one we were originally considering 14:23:44 robewald: have you tried sldb 14:23:53 sohum: my statement is, that you can clear up what you have shown. But yes, I see your point, and in pure languages it certainly is valid 14:23:57 robewald: have a look a COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS 14:24:03 at 14:24:35 robewald: and section 7.6.6 14:27:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:28:07 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B5D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:29:18 and - agnel, I was going to ask you if creating a macro which created and applied a lambdaform would work, but it appears clazy works 14:29:56 -!- m7g [n=stefan@78.43.227.147] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:24 sohum: that was what I was thinking of doing too :-) create a macro that creates a lambda form or a function, with some arguments evaled 14:30:32 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA62D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:30:41 agnel: under the hood, that's what clazy is doing anyway 14:30:47 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087B5D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:01 sohum: under the hood, that's what clazy is doing 14:31:02 anyway 14:31:19 ndt [n=antoine@222.253.99.43] has joined #lisp 14:31:47 masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 14:31:49 yea, I guess it is. hm, let me test something... 14:33:45 interesting. DEFUNs - and, I assume DEFMETHODs and DEFMACROs and similar - evaluated within a function body become global, not local to the function 14:33:57 now why did I think they stayed local? 14:34:42 Hello, i'm a beginner of Ubuntu and Emacs.. I'm trying couples days but till now i still don't know how to write and test lines of Lisp in Emacs.. Please help me! 14:34:50 sohum: because of Scheme? 14:35:00 sohum: perhaps you learned scheme first? define in bodies is local. 14:35:13 sohum: they do in a number of other languages 14:35:17 ndt: emacs lisp? 14:35:31 yes 14:35:34 though flets are lexically scoped, of course 14:35:38 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@93-40-119-116.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:35:41 please guide me 14:35:44 ndt: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/clisp -ansi -q -K full -m 32M -I") M-x inferior-lisp RET 14:36:07 ndt: well, we are talking here about common lisp mostly, there is #emacs channel 14:36:08 ndt: adjust the path and argument accordingly to your CL implementation. 14:36:20 ndt: be careful! there's emacs lisp, which is the lisp that emacs uses internally, and common lisp and scheme, both of which can be coded in emacs 14:36:35 ndt: for emacs lisp, try: M-x ielm RET (+ 2 3) RET 14:36:38 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:40 ndt: which do you mean? 14:36:43 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 14:36:46 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-145-79.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:56 stassats: ah, yep, Scheme is why I thought that. 14:37:07 incidentally, why is LABELS not named FLET*? 14:37:07 if you want to learn Emacs Lisp, there is "Introduction to Emacs Lisp Programming" 14:37:17 sohum: historically 14:37:24 i means i want to use emacs to write Common Lisp.. but i dont know how to 14:37:36 ndt: are you trying to set up slime? 14:37:38 well, then you need Slime 14:37:43 and PCL 14:37:44 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-135.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:37:46 minion: pcl? 14:37:47 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 14:37:52 -!- sellout-_ is now known as sellout 14:38:08 ndt: yeah, pcl is a great book for starting out in common lisp 14:38:22 -!- sellout is now known as Guest61036 14:38:41 ndt: slime = Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for EMACS 14:38:56 i tried apt-get install slime.. and now i need to install pcl? 14:39:38 yep, in your brain 14:39:50 that's a book 14:40:04 sohum: in LISP 1.5, there was a LABEL operator to define anonymous recursive functions. LABELS was an ulterior extension to define several recursive functions locally. 14:40:11 -!- vinleod [n=Vincent_@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:40:51 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:40 -!- Guest61036 is now known as sellout 14:41:58 matimago: ooh. so, apart from arc, has anyone forked the common lisp spec and cleaned this stuff up? 14:42:11 (and I'm not sure if that's what arc's doing or not...) 14:43:11 matimago: thanks, that was what I was looking for. 14:43:11 arc? cleaned? oh dear... 14:43:15 thank you so much.. i got it 14:43:43 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.48] has joined #lisp 14:44:07 (all I know about arc is that it's a new lisp which graham said was going to be awesome and then fizzled) 14:44:22 jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 14:44:42 sohum: who in his sane mind would want to do that? It's the richness of CL to keep its historic roots. I wouldn't want it otherwise. 14:45:03 sohum: Lisp if 50 years old and five days. 14:45:07 s/if/is/ 14:45:12 *sohum* pokes matimago to make sure he's serious 14:45:20 willb [n=wibenton@wireless85.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:45:45 or just utilising the lack of cues to keep an uneartly straight face 14:45:48 matimago: lisp's strength is reinventing itself easily, not being rooted in the past 14:47:02 -!- jlf` is now known as jlf 14:48:06 sohum: i'd go and use a scheme instead of cleaning up cl 14:48:15 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 14:48:24 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:38 attila_lendvai: any particular reason? 14:49:23 sohum: Fufie: thanks to packages, you can define your own language in CL easily. Even more easily with "package conduits". 14:49:29 -!- agnel [n=joel@115.99.2.68] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:49:42 sohum: much more innovation there, which in mid term will yield viable reasons to switch 14:50:21 And until you have $200M to invest in people developping lisp libraries (like Sun did for java), you should be happy to be able to run code 10, 20, or 30 years old. 14:51:56 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:52:05 matimago: it seems that creating a language in this hypothetical cleaned-up-CL to provide backwards compatibility with CL would be just as easy 14:52:09 Greetings! 14:52:28 and then you can start creating packages within this cleaned-up-CL 14:52:44 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:53:24 LiamH: I've created the LISP-UNIT git repository : http://repo.or.cz/w/lisp-unit.git 14:53:40 attila_lendvai: how does the innovation match with the noted superiority of cl to, quote, "get things done"? 14:53:58 sohum: DrScheme and the module system can help in that a lot... you just need to make its compiler a bit better to get the level of sbcl speed 14:54:00 tmh: Good. I had trouble with your definitions when trying to do GSLL tests. 14:54:15 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.228] has quit ["Leaving..."] 14:54:27 Dr. Riesbeck recommended and supported that we create our own project. He'll link to it. 14:54:34 LiamH: What was the problem? 14:54:43 jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has joined #lisp 14:54:45 tmh: re Reisbeck, good. 14:54:52 sohum: looking back to our past 3 years, i'm not sure we are any further with CL than we would have been with scheme 14:55:07 sohum: where we is a startup for webapps 14:55:24 tmh: I got a mysterious error in SBCL: EIGENSYSTEMS: Array element type of :DISPLACED-TO array does not match specified element type 14:55:59 tmh: which came from array-equal, but when I hand-fed it the identical arrays, it worked fine. 14:56:04 LiamH: Ah, yeah, I don't think I was specifying element type. That should be a simple fix. 14:56:15 attila_lendvai: sorry? I couldn't quite parse those last two sentences 14:56:37 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:56:59 LiamH: Let me check that and I'll let you know if I submit a patch. Should take approx. 15-minutes. 14:57:01 sohum: also note that "cleaned up" is highly subjective... what you need is a framework where introduction of new universes and their integration is well designed 14:57:42 tmh: then when I tried in CCL, the tests ran OK (but showed a few more errors than my previous version). But when I would subsequently run the tests again in the same session, CCL would crash completely 14:58:06 tmh: with this error: *** glibc detected *** /home/liam/languages/lisp/ccl/lx86cl64: free(): invalid next size (normal): 0x0000000002543860 *** 14:58:30 attila_lendvai: would s/cleaned up/made more consistent help? I don't think consistency is subjective... 14:58:31 sohum: i'm part of a startup started 3 years ago, we are working in CL, we got somewhere. and i'm not sure we were not here if we started our using scheme. and we are doing webapps that are pretty much in use... so i'm talking about "getting things done" 14:58:34 LaimH: Ouch. Well, I have CCL installed, so I'll check that as well. I also have a git copy of GSLL, so I'll try to see if I can reproduce. 14:58:54 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:58:55 It's probably some combination of bugs. 14:59:05 attila_lendvai: you have an advantage in terms of libraries, surely? 14:59:06 *attila_lendvai* needs to get things done right now also... 14:59:08 (over scheme) 15:00:05 tmh: Can you email me? My email is in the GSLL info. 15:00:07 rsynnott: i'm not sure in that anymore. even less so, since we wrote our own http framwork and persistence layer... 15:01:01 LiamH: Sure, oh yeah, I needed to add your name to the push list on LISP-UNIT. I'll send you an email and you can send me your repo name in the response. 15:01:12 attila_lendvai: that's intriguing. 15:01:16 oh, yep, you're the cl-perec people? 15:01:36 tmh: Thanks. 15:02:07 rsynnott: yes. wui is the web framework, but it's just a repo for now... no time to advertise it 15:05:28 existing libs may even be an obstacle... we struggled for half a year with clsql until we decided that it really is worth rolling cl-rdbms. if we started out from scratch, then the sum of time "wasted" would have been less i'm sure, because cl-rdbms was operational within one week and it lowered the time spent on debugging quite a bit... 15:06:57 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:07:18 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:07:40 sohum: where are the CL compatibility package in Ruby, Clojure, Java, etc? 15:08:08 sohum: cf. the $200M problem. 15:09:14 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:58 matimago: well, ruby and java don't have a) the impetus or b) the uniform syntax. the hypothetical consistent CL derivative would. 15:11:10 clojure I'm not too sure about, can't speak about. 15:12:40 -!- dat [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:13:27 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:13:49 Thanks sohum, matimago, stassats for guiding me how to config to write Common Lisp codes in Emacs and recommending me the pcl book.. Now, i can write and compile some simple codes in Emacs.. Thank you so much! 15:14:54 ndt: np ;) 15:14:59 ok, i should sleep. 15:16:33 I doubt CL compatibility in clojure would be practical 15:17:33 I doubt it would be welcome 15:18:40 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:58 -!- ndt [n=antoine@222.253.99.43] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:20:21 edmond [n=who_i_am@222.253.90.42] has joined #lisp 15:20:31 huyphu [n=nguyenhu@115.73.53.29] has joined #lisp 15:20:33 appletizer [i=user@82-45-11-54.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:21:50 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-135.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 15:22:08 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 15:23:08 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-141-29.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:25:35 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:28:27 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:29:47 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 15:31:52 jsnell: a third implementation of CL over JVM! :-) 15:32:29 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-141-29.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:32:48 Good afternoon everyone. 15:32:50 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:11 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:33:16 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:21 heya, baech. 15:35:30 or however you spell your name nowadays. 15:35:32 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:52 tic: that one is getting old :) 15:36:13 beach, I was just trying to cover my typo. :) 15:36:24 I guessed that. 15:36:50 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:37:08 beach: you missed b bin when traveling in Viet Nam. 15:37:13 -!- karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:37:21 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 15:37:29 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 15:37:38 matimago: I did? 15:38:01 IIRC, you were still beach there. 15:38:15 matimago: indeed, yes. 15:38:29 You could have been bobien. 15:38:40 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 15:39:07 I'll remember next time. 15:39:46 KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:58 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-45-11-54.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:51:19 josemanuel [n=josemanu@99.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:52:58 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-201.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:52:59 -!- huyphu [n=nguyenhu@115.73.53.29] has left #lisp 15:53:27 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-141-29.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:53:55 _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 15:54:14 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 15:56:30 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:57:00 lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:58:03 are we copying to of from memory ? (popw rbp-tn (- (1+ return-pc-save-offset))) 16:01:19 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:03:23 lhz: popping a word to the memory address pointed to by rbp-tn + offset 16:03:24 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:03:44 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:05:23 -!- edmond [n=who_i_am@222.253.90.42] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:06:19 mega1: ah.. there is a implicit stack ? 16:07:56 -!- bbe [n=bbe@221.226.134.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:08:19 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has left #lisp 16:08:53 lhz: the one that ESP points to 16:10:29 -!- Guest25854 is now known as pkhuong 16:10:59 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest14308 16:11:10 mega1: thanks .. btw why dont we have to establish code as in compute-code-from-lip 16:11:23 -!- Guest14308 is now known as pkhuong 16:11:39 .. in the beginning of xep-allocate-frame on x86 16:14:04 lhz: what does "establish code" mean here? 16:17:01 megal: to get to our local variables, we establish reg_CODE register content. 16:20:17 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:27 lhz: on some platforms 16:23:13 I mean that reg_CODE only exists on some platfroms. 16:23:40 I don't think it's to get to local vars. 16:24:01 but someone who actually knows this may help you better. 16:25:04 need more help debugging method selection in sbcl. How can I access local variables in sbdb using eval in frame? 16:25:27 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-92-109.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 16:25:39 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 16:25:49 I just get a variable unbound... 16:26:56 i'm considering both kpax and hunchentoot for web development, any recommendations on either of them? 16:27:55 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:28:19 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:30:57 megal: yes.. local variables would be overwritten on a threaded or just a recursive call.. it is local constants. How are those kept on x86 ? I'll do a trace-file and try to see for myself.. 16:31:01 KingOfKarlsruhe [n=nice@HSI-KBW-091-089-027-168.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 16:31:32 milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.125] has joined #lisp 16:32:06 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:20 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:34:21 manuel__ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 16:37:04 MOV RDX, [RIP-91] ; "hejsan" <--- is RIP a register on x86-64 ? 16:37:08 yes 16:37:27 trying to find rip in vm.lisp.. 16:37:33 lhz: they are in the code object for the function, inspecting #'foo will lead you there. 16:40:28 megal: thanks.. so doing (inspect #'a) where a is (defun a () "hejsan") I could reach that "hejsan" ? 16:40:45 lhz: no, the constants :-) 16:41:37 megal: wouldn't "hejsan" be compiled as a constant ? 16:43:27 Xof: about random states, cmucl has code that does what you say (read 637 values from urandom), but pkhoung has a point and reading 600+ words will take some time. 16:44:28 think I begin to understand.. rip is instruction-pointer so we are reaching into this "code object" area by doing an relative load ? 16:45:04 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.48] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:47:35 deego [n=user@74.255.63.136] has joined #lisp 16:47:39 lhz: yes. 16:48:10 lhz: on x86 it's different 16:48:47 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 16:49:31 pkhuong: any idea why doesn't x86 do the same? 16:50:30 no RIP-relative addressing on x86. 16:50:38 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:51:12 should have guessed 16:51:55 abeaumont: I've tried hunchentoot successfully (the web application runs). What about you try both and tell us if kpax is better? 16:52:27 You have to CALL/POP to find IP. Modern chips optimise the idiom away somewhat, but I doubt it'll ever be as fast as the current solution... and dedicating a register to hold some address seems lossy too. 16:53:14 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 16:53:28 hello 16:55:16 attila_lendvai: a person can have many addresses. only one address is the 'current' or valid address. doesn't dwim have some built in support for that? 16:59:31 crod [n=cmell@x250002.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 16:59:39 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@x250023.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:06 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-27-134.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:27 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:02:30 -!- ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:03:14 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:03:42 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 kami-: we have a few ideas, but nothing interesting for addresses yet... 17:05:31 the dimensional stuff is not suited for that? 17:05:47 a person can have more than one current valid addresses, though 17:06:29 rsynnott: yes. I dumbly tried to make up an example. It's not addresses, what I'm after. 17:11:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe [n=nice@HSI-KBW-091-089-027-168.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has left #lisp 17:12:38 it looks like the mov vop will gladly take that constant (#) .. so it is pushing the "problem" to mov instruction, where it is selected as an fixup ? 17:14:51 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:18:02 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AF52.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:04 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:19:12 matimago: i'll probably do that... i already have some code working with kpax, but got a problem and found that documentation is... sparse. was wondering if hunchentoot would be a better choice 17:20:22 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@66.166.232.134] has joined #lisp 17:20:29 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:52 attila_lendvai: the last patch fixes it, yay! 17:22:20 attila_lendvai: now, what is the proper way of making a db for perec to use? Just MAKE-INSTANCE of POSTGRESQL-POSTMODERN makes it complain about missing mixins, and POSTGRESQL-POSTMODERN/TEST sounds icky 17:22:51 mathrick: thanks for the report! 17:22:54 am I just supposed to make my own class with a mixin? 17:23:12 mathrick: find the place where POSTGRESQL-POSTMODERN/TEST is defined and copy-paste it to your project 17:23:13 attila_lendvai: you're welcome. I intend to use perec seriously now, so I'll be sure to bug you more often :) 17:23:28 attila_lendvai: yeah, I suspected that, it's rather trivial a classs 17:23:58 I suppose I should collect that into some writeup, docs aren't exactly perec's forte 17:24:07 speaking of which, does the name mean anything? 17:24:27 mathrick: if you open a file and write up stuff as you progress, that would be very welcome! 17:25:11 ok 17:25:22 I already have the list of things that need to be installed 17:25:47 dunno, some persistence something... easy to pronounce... :) and perec means this in hungarian: http://m.blog.hu/cs/cseresznyekert/image/bloperec2(1).jpg 17:26:07 oooh 17:26:12 precel in Polish 17:26:25 now you know :) 17:26:28 oh, and re: the bug, would I gain anything if I had iolib installed? 17:26:35 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [] 17:26:58 mathrick: as much as an ip-address type that stores iolib ipv4/6 addresses 17:27:21 I see 17:27:22 not much then 17:27:29 it's on my (long) TODO to move postmodern to iolib, though... 17:27:41 aha 17:28:31 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:29:00 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:29:20 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:29:45 -!- jocke_ [n=jocke@dhcp-192-224.nomad.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lämnar"] 17:32:04 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-156-192.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:17 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-156-192.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:32 wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-117-45.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 17:35:36 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:47 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:40:48 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:41:10 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:59 I wonder if others have seen this. I am running freebsd and sbcl 1.0.25 and built it with sb-thread enabled. However, if I have a long-running evaluation started in slime, and try to do an evaluation, on this platform only I get "pipelined request" as if threads were not enabled. This beahves as expected under linux. 17:45:21 -!- deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:35 wgl: obvious questions: are threads listed in *FEATURES*? 17:48:21 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:24 *question 17:49:09 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:49:17 Ah, nope. Duh. Where does that get set? 17:49:58 it should be there if your build actually has threading support 17:50:10 do all the threads functions work? 17:50:24 wgl: how did you enable threads? did you install it? 17:51:08 In the "customize-target-features.lisp" i did "(enable :sb-thread)" before compiling sbcl. 17:51:13 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:55 Further ah: make-thread does not work, gives "Not supported in unithread builds". 17:53:32 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:53:52 So do I do something more than "(enable :sb-thread)" to include it? 17:55:49 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@93-40-119-116.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:56:02 wgl: are you sure you used enable :sb-thread, and are you sure you're running the SBCL you built with that flag? 17:56:59 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:09 hrmn 17:57:12 is anyone familiar with ECL 17:57:27 wasn't :sb-thread enabled by default on platforms that supported it? 17:57:32 that seems to have changed recently. 17:57:48 Fade: nope and nope 17:58:04 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:25 rather, if i'm trying to convert some LISP program that is a REPL of its own into something people can use uh via the web or something...would ECL work for that? or what else should i do? 17:58:38 well, that solves the mystery about the problem I was having with portable-threads. :) 17:58:48 (i love this chat room because of how often i run into a question where i don't even know what the question is! :) ) 17:58:48 isismelting, so you want an online REPL? 17:59:02 tic - i made an "eliza" 17:59:10 drewc: customize-target-features.lisp has a lambda that effectively does a (pushnew :sb-thread) onto features. 17:59:13 and i want to access it via www or something 17:59:19 do you understand what i mean? 17:59:41 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:51 isismelting, have a look at e.g. Lisp on Lines or UnCommon Web. Or one of the other web libraries. 18:00:15 "Lisp on Lines" & "UnCommon Web" - like that? 18:00:45 -!- Fufie [n=poff@34.80-203-160.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:02:06 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:34 tic - uncommon web looks like something i can work with (though i think i have my work cut out for me) - thank you buddy 18:02:53 tic - what sort of lisp-related work do you do? 18:07:37 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:07:44 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:37 Perhaps I have the customize-target-features.lisp file in the wrong place. It is at the top level of the sbcl source directory. 18:08:40 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:51 isismelting, none, actually. :) 18:09:26 none? i don't mean "work" as in employed work necessarily... 18:10:20 Last thing I did was to write about "Programming Challenge: Crypt Kicker" a month ago. That's kinda none :/ 18:10:38 WebGuest [n=WebGuest@c-0f5fe353.732-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:11:03 wgl: that's right 18:11:03 is it online somewhere - could you link me? i'd like to read it 18:11:18 (not that i will be able to understand what the hell i'm looking at :) ) 18:11:24 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D724.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:54 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has quit [] 18:16:31 root____ [n=root@87.223.39.79] has joined #lisp 18:16:36 hello 18:16:45 hi? 18:16:55 -!- root____ is now known as topito 18:17:04 anyone here? 18:17:35 i just compiled ode on macosx 18:17:55 can anybody explain me how can i use the binding now? 18:18:12 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:18:34 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:18:53 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:53 hi topito - no, sorry i can't explain that 18:19:57 wish i could :) 18:20:07 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:20:28 do you know cl-ode> 18:20:30 ? 18:21:00 rigid body dynamics? 18:21:11 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:12 that's a pretty narrow application. 18:21:26 perhaps you should flesh out your question. 18:21:50 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 18:22:16 look 18:22:17 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-ode/ 18:22:42 i downloaded but it comes with a old version of ode 18:22:55 did you asdf install it? 18:23:01 or did you download the archive? 18:23:13 so i downloaded, compiled and installed the last one, now my question is how do i use the binding? 18:23:15 "You can download the files from here but the it is recommended that you use asdf-install. E.g. (asdf-install:install :cl-ode)" 18:23:26 i know fade 18:23:44 but i got a error if i do it in that way 18:24:03 you might want to look at this: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Tutorial.html 18:24:05 i get this 18:24:07 : debugger invoked on a CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR: 18:24:07 Unable to load foreign library: /usr/local/lib/sbcl/site/cl-ode/ode-0.8/ode/src/libode.so 18:24:09 fade,drewc,pkhuong,mathrick: Fixed due to your help. Built sbcl ended up not installed. Thanks much 18:24:31 fade if you see its using /ode-0.8 18:24:36 its old version 18:24:47 i downloaded the last version and compiled ok 18:24:48 In mcclim, just like there's a (get-frame-pane 'p) Is there a way to (get-pane-frame)? or (get-pane-parent) 18:24:48 wgl: glad to be of service. 18:24:55 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:40 I can and do use *application-frame*, but that seems vulnerable to funny things... if the user starts a new frame just at the right time, the value of that variable can be different.. and I believe I have seen funny things happen.. 18:26:28 topito: probably the bindings are reaching out to the old lib. 18:26:47 how can i fix that? 18:27:01 clim find-pane-named 18:27:01 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/28-3.html#_1508 18:27:14 well, the most expedient sol'n would be to fix the problem /w building the asdf-install version. 18:27:36 stassats: no, I mean, find pane's parent frame. 18:27:42 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:27:47 whats sol'n? 18:27:57 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:18 A special variable always has the same global value in every thread, right? 18:28:25 clim frame-parent 18:28:25 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/28-3.html#_1503 18:28:42 deego: it is per thread 18:29:08 one question : what is (asdf-install:install :cl-ode) supposed to do? 18:29:10 Oh. Thanks. 18:29:15 deego: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Special-Variables.html#Special-Variables 18:29:17 why does it download the source? 18:29:41 <_3b> topito: you could try fixing the load-foreign-library call so it uses the version you compiled 18:30:03 where is that? 18:30:05 _3b? 18:30:19 deego: if you are using sbcl, of course 18:30:34 stassats: yes, I am. Thanks a lot. 18:31:06 <_3b> topito: cl-ode only has 1 lisp file (not counting the test), you should be able to find it... 18:31:32 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:31:32 grep it! 18:31:51 yes 18:31:55 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:32:45 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:33:34 <_3b> that code looks a bit odd though, probably should be cleaned up a bit 18:34:36 i found this _3b 18:34:42 can i paste 3 lines here? 18:34:49 <_3b> no 18:35:08 ok 18:35:24 i found this: 18:35:24 '("ode-0.8" "ode" "src")) 18:35:35 stassats: that was the parent of a frame, I was looking for the parent of a pane 18:35:51 (append (pathname-directory *load-pathname* )(append (pathname-directory *load-pathname* ) 18:36:08 sorry this one 18:36:09 (append (pathname-directory *load-pathname* ) '("ode-0.8" "ode" "src")) 18:36:42 <_3b> topito: replace that whole (make-pathname ...) with #p"/path/to/wherever/you/installed/ode.dylib" (replace with actual path and name of the lib you compiled) 18:37:03 how do you know is ode.dylib? 18:37:05 <_3b> and 'no' means don't paste it 18:37:18 <_3b> i don't know that, you have to figure out that part yourself (or buy me a mac) 18:37:22 deego: i can't say for sure, but i remember some close relation between them, doesn't it work when you try it? 18:37:32 though i may be mistaken here 18:38:11 stassats: no :( There is no applicable method for the generic function # when called with argument (#). 18:38:23 _3b it generates this file 18:38:24 libode.a 18:38:38 not .dylib 18:38:54 <_3b> .a won't work, you need a dynamically linkable version 18:39:08 and it appeared in /usr/local/lib/ 18:39:09 no? 18:39:26 it also generated a libode.la 18:39:33 does .la works? 18:39:43 <_3b> don't think so 18:40:08 why does it doesnt generate a dylib? 18:40:19 :P 18:40:34 it may be a build option? 18:40:36 <_3b> no idea, presumably either it is broken, or you built it wrong 18:40:43 Heh, I see mcclim's (with-application-frame); it simply does `(let ((,frame *application-frame*)). So that must be good enough :) 18:40:53 i build it without errors 18:41:02 wanna see what i got? 18:41:18 `.la' usually denotes the output of libtool, which is a hairy utility to futz with libraries, so that there is probably a dynamically loadable library somewhere around. 18:41:21 I still can't believe that's enough though. What if two frames share the same thread? 18:41:30 <_3b> no, don't need to see compile results 18:41:41 And f1 is active. P2 of f2 could then be referring to f1 .. 18:41:41 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:41:47 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:42:28 what are those libode.a and libode.la files? 18:42:31 -!- dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:42:38 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-208-154-212.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:02 has anyone in here written an eliza or a similar thing & would s/he care to share their code with me for educational purposes? 18:44:04 isismelting: minion? 18:44:15 isismelting: PAIP contains it 18:44:21 minion: minion? 18:44:21 minion: minion is an IRC robot (who prefers the term "electronically composed.") For online help, try /msg minion help Minion is hosted at common-lisp.net and is usually connected to the #lisp IRC channel. http://www.cliki.net/minion 18:44:30 isismelting: I think the code for PAIP is available online. 18:44:40 isismelting: You can also look at the sources of Emacs' psychatrist 18:45:08 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host17.190-137-255.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:45:17 the paip eliza i don't quite, uh, get 18:45:29 emacs psychatrist? 18:45:35 hmm 18:45:35 M-x doctor 18:46:06 <_3b> topito: if you used configure to build it, try ./configure --help and see if it has an option for building shared libs 18:46:22 ok 18:46:23 crazy, i had no idea this emacs psychiatrist was here 18:46:31 thanks guys 18:46:47 isismelting: if you read PAIP, then the paip eliza makes a lot of sense. 18:47:05 _3b 18:47:06 baal [n=baal@h49n2fls303o885.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:47:07 yes it has 18:47:12 and by default is turned of 18:47:14 off 18:47:21 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:30 --enable-shared[=PKGS] build shared libraries [default=no] 18:47:37 _3g? 18:47:41 _3b: 18:47:42 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-e6f445c99e200b7b] has joined #lisp 18:48:12 <_3b> topito: try that then 18:48:41 -!- masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:48:42 drewc: maybe this is stupid, but why are the lefts/rights (*? *y) & (*? *x) -- in my eliza i just made them (y) & (x) which seems to simplify everything. this may be what i call a "wrong question" that is, maybe i am missing some completely other point? 18:48:53 ok 18:49:00 what are shared libraries? 18:49:19 -!- baal is now known as Malbolge 18:49:41 -!- Foofie is now known as Fufie 18:49:42 isismelting: well, read the book and you will understand 18:49:51 <_3b> .dll, .so, .dylib = shared libraries = libraries loaded at runtime instead of linked at compile time 18:50:09 stassats: is there a literal physical book? 18:50:15 yep 18:50:19 minion: paip 18:50:20 paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 18:50:21 i thought PAIP was just the collection of programs 18:50:27 ah ok 18:50:29 no wonder i am so retarded haha 18:50:37 thanks 18:50:44 minion: hello 18:50:44 what's up? 18:50:50 for using bindings do i need shared libraries? 18:51:02 and not just a book, but a good one 18:51:25 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@66.166.232.134] has left #lisp 18:51:49 <_3b> ecl might be able to use static libs (.a), but i wouldn't expect most lisps to be able to 18:52:09 i thought i was just really stupid not being able to understand just the source from PAIP - but it is a book. jease. 18:52:15 _3b: well, you could rebuild SBCL. 18:52:16 masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:52:19 <_3b> at least without recompiling the C part of the lisp if it has one every time you ad a library 18:54:20 one question: 18:54:26 this means --enable-shared[=PKGS] 18:54:30 ./configure --enable-shared[=PKGS] ? 18:54:44 <_3b> i'd guess ./configure --enable-shared 18:54:46 because i get error 18:54:46 configure: error: invalid feature name: shared[ 18:55:15 Hello, I'm thinking about compiling a network of anonymous functions together. The "graph" will be known at run-time. Is this possible ? 18:55:18 is there an available pdf copy of PAIP (trust me i am paying for a hard copy) 18:55:22 gueux [n=g@d193-152-246.home3.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:25 hi 18:57:03 is there a function to print the rationals as reals? (I mean such that (print 1/2) returns 0.5) 18:57:11 isismelting: no good copy 18:57:33 gueux: (print (float 1/2)) 18:57:40 float ok :-) 18:58:11 or (format t "~F" 1/2) 18:58:33 isismelting: http://hugo.dontexist.org/files/ebooks/ebooks/paip.pdf 18:59:06 It is readable but big too ^^ 18:59:32 thank you - this will work just fine on my kindle until i get a hard copy 18:59:35 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host239.190-227-38.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:41 np 19:00:37 oh - if anyone is wondering whether or not to buy a kindle2, i say definitely do it 19:00:47 minion: sbcl 19:00:48 sbcl: Steel Bank Common Lisp is an open source / free software Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/sbcl 19:00:58 _3b 19:01:02 you there? 19:01:06 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-208-154-212.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:01:13 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-208-136-103.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:17 cool, who wrote the minion ? 19:01:17 i do that but the dylib file didnt appear 19:01:39 minion: minion? 19:01:39 minion: minion is an IRC robot (who prefers the term "electronically composed.") For online help, try /msg minion help Minion is hosted at common-lisp.net and is usually connected to the #lisp IRC channel. http://www.cliki.net/minion 19:01:54 thx 19:02:03 by Brian Mastenbrook aka "chandler" 19:02:12 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:03 <_3b> topito: don't know what to try if that didn't work, maybe look for hidden dirs and see if it put it in one? seem to remember libtool doing that sometimes 19:03:37 <_3b> topito: or see if you can get a prebuilt version somewhere 19:05:19 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 19:07:24 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@66.166.232.134] has joined #lisp 19:07:29 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:08:13 -!- KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:08:20 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 19:08:25 KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:09:50 slom_ [n=slom@pD9EB5FB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:03 anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has joined #lisp 19:10:45 -!- sohum [n=sohum@burgmann181.anu.edu.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:10:47 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.166.169] has quit ["Raise your glass to the comrades we've lost"] 19:14:06 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:15:08 _3b 19:15:37 if someody else compiles it . can i use the ode.dylib on my computer? 19:15:45 libobe.dylib 19:16:43 <_3b> probably 19:17:26 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0FAF8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:28 ummm 19:17:46 do anybody here is using common lisp on mac? 19:17:59 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:04 yes. 19:19:07 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 19:20:02 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:20:30 yes 19:23:57 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.228] has joined #lisp 19:25:02 topito: yep 19:25:08 -!- younder [n=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 19:25:10 : < 19:30:37 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:15 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@66.166.232.134] has quit [] 19:36:13 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-135.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 19:36:25 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-5.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:54 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:38:10 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:52 one question 19:38:57 tsuru` [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:57 how can i change environment variables? 19:39:02 from ./configure? 19:39:18 jocke_ [n=jocke@witychu.khg.sgsnet.se] has joined #lisp 19:40:06 export them from your shell 19:40:28 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@163.Red-88-9-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:40:32 export MYENVAR="openmcl" 19:40:40 env BLUB=bla ./configure 19:40:48 (if you just want to do it for one command) 19:40:54 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 19:41:26 for some variables you'd rather want to do ./configure CC=... CFLAGS=... 19:42:20 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:32 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 19:45:10 kidd1 [n=kidd@5.Red-79-150-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:12 joelmccracken_ [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-204-183.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:33 ummm 19:46:33 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:46:50 -!- joelmccracken_ [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-204-183.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:46:57 -!- anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:50:36 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:52:13 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:52:16 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:39 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:31 lizao_ [n=liza@76.76.162.99] has joined #lisp 19:54:25 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:54:27 hi? 19:54:31 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:40 i just discovered that --enable-shared[=PKGS] means i need to put the name of the package 19:55:20 Hey maybe there is a fm to read. Like INSTALL or README. 19:55:56 hmmm... is there any guide on how to connect some modern lispy webdev through FastCGI? :D 19:56:12 (Hunchentoot and UCW preferred) 19:56:37 p_l: hunchentoot is a http server, it does not interact with fastcgi. 19:56:40 if you're going to use hunchentoot in prod, use a reverse proxy like squid or apache. 19:56:57 Fade: It's not going to be "production" server 19:57:16 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:30 regardless, the reverse proxy approach would probably be more expedient (and scalable) than fastcgi 19:57:39 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:41 which I think assumes mod_lisp 19:58:01 though I wonder if simple "RewriteRule (.*) http://:/$1 [P]" in apache conf would work 20:00:30 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:00:34 http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#proxy 20:00:43 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:03:18 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.228] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:03:54 -!- liza0 [n=liza@76.76.161.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:04:01 well, this is going to be a test on a host that doesn't officially support lisp :) 20:04:15 (well, they don't officially support _anything_) 20:04:20 jao [n=jao@221.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:59 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:06:01 hey 20:06:07 cool now i have libode.dylib 20:06:22 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-117-45.liwest.at] has quit [] 20:09:46 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:10:13 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 20:11:25 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-99.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:11:30 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.48] has joined #lisp 20:11:53 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@82.83.99.137] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:12:28 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:14:43 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.48] has quit [Client Quit] 20:14:57 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:24 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 20:19:47 -!- Malbolge [n=baal@h49n2fls303o885.telia.com] has left #lisp 20:22:33 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 20:23:05 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-e6f445c99e200b7b] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:23:50 -!- WebGuest [n=WebGuest@c-0f5fe353.732-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:24:19 -!- lizao_ [n=liza@76.76.162.99] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:24:36 liza0 [n=liza@209.59.96.159] has joined #lisp 20:26:20 hi anyone here? 20:26:27 i dot the libode.dylib 20:26:36 now how can i load the binding? 20:27:45 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:46 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-21-71.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:19 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:30:11 load it via asdf 20:32:40 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:33:10 <_3b> topito: did you fix the load-foreign-library call yet? 20:33:30 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [] 20:34:44 -!- liza0 [n=liza@209.59.96.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:35:19 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:36:50 liza0 [n=liza@209.59.101.117] has joined #lisp 20:40:06 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 20:42:13 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:43:51 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:44:12 Does the number 259 connote anything casual in the US? 20:46:52 tcr http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/259_(number) 20:46:54 not to my knowledge. 20:47:18 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-141-29.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:47:19 lizao_ [n=liza@76.76.161.133] has joined #lisp 20:49:14 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 20:49:35 it's a dull number 20:51:01 -!- topito [n=root@87.223.39.79] has quit [] 20:52:05 are there exciting numbers ? 20:52:15 42 20:52:20 23 20:52:28 pi is pretty exciting. 20:53:33 cl-indent.el is the worst code I've seen since a long time 20:54:07 tcr: yeah, it's awful 20:55:49 dlowe: what's so exciting about 23? 20:56:53 stassats: it's exciting if you've read the Illuminatus! trilogy 20:57:09 hail eris 20:58:20 hail eris 20:58:49 -!- liza0 [n=liza@209.59.101.117] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:59:38 -!- jocke_ [n=jocke@witychu.khg.sgsnet.se] has quit ["Lämnar"] 20:59:40 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:03:10 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:03:50 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has left #lisp 21:04:50 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:50 wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-117-45.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 21:05:18 thermoplyae [i=thermo@cohomology.org] has joined #lisp 21:05:29 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:05:34 slom__ [n=slom@pD9EB4DAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:46 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:55 postamar_ [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-135.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 21:06:29 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-135.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:07:41 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [No route to host] 21:08:19 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 21:08:24 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:10:03 dstanev [n=chatzill@external.treyarch.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:10 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-208-136-103.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:10:41 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 21:11:35 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-168-169.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:11:43 hrmm... i just updated slime from cvs and now when i do M-x slime the repl lacks all the fancy stuff 21:11:52 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-24-14-239-25.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:37 How do I ask lisp to show me all the slot-names of a class? .. and all the pane-names of a frame type? 21:13:38 Add (slime-setup ('slime-fancy slime-asfd)) to your .emacs 21:13:48 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:13:57 direct slots or effective slots? 21:13:59 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)), I mean 21:14:05 manic12_: direct ones 21:14:10 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-2-100.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:22 class-direct-slots, in your mop package 21:14:23 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has quit [] 21:14:26 For instance, (list-slots (make-instance 'class1)) 21:14:52 (mop:class-direct-slots (find-class 'class1)) 21:15:04 -!- dstanev [n=chatzill@external.treyarch.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009021910]"] 21:15:06 tcr: thanks! 21:15:57 manic12_: thanks 21:16:07 where mop package may vary depending on what implementation you're using 21:16:47 then you can (mapcar #'mop:slot-definition-name class-slots) 21:19:27 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:20:10 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:16 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:20:55 -!- masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:21:00 I just wrote a function to check if a year is a leap year. Please let me know if anyone can think of any better way. http://paste.lisp.org/display/76714 21:21:35 Ah, the answer to my earlier question seems to be the function (pane-frame) 21:21:42 <_3b> (= x 0) -> (zerop x) 21:22:06 _3b: thanks! 21:22:17 -!- slom_ [n=slom@pD9EB5FB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:13 -!- thermoplyae [i=thermo@cohomology.org] has left #lisp 21:23:42 http://paste.lisp.org/display/76714#1 21:24:04 (not (zerop ...)) in that case would be (plusp ...) 21:24:06 tomoyuki28jp: and in your case (not (= x 0)) => (plusp x) 21:25:23 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ee39392a8b78a8c3] has joined #lisp 21:25:25 Why the plusp check in the first case? This function thus returns a wrong answer for neg. years? 21:26:02 s/case/place 21:26:09 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:26:13 stassats: fe[nl]ix: thanks! Now it looks much nicer. http://paste.lisp.org/display/76714#2 21:26:28 deego: (mod 0 4) returns 0 21:26:36 well, that could be done with (check-type year (integer 0)) 21:27:31 tomoyuki28jp: -4 should either be classified as a leap year or your function should raise an error. But, returning nil is wrong ... ? 21:27:37 exhaustively list all the leap years left until we destroy our planet 21:27:52 or unsigned-byte 21:28:49 oh, then (integer 1) 21:30:26 dcjackson [n=dcj@nat/microsoft/x-a0a45171928cbd3a] has joined #lisp 21:31:21 how do i write a control character such as C-b as a char? 21:31:41 C-q C-b 21:32:32 i'd like to be able to print it 21:32:42 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:32:53 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:33:07 (print (code-char 2)) 21:33:08 get the char-code and print the code-char 21:33:38 Better write it out as a byte. 21:34:09 #\^B works in sbcl and ccl 21:35:10 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:20 well, comes out, it doesn't work only in ABCL 21:35:20 thanks, stassats 21:36:19 masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:36:20 root [n=root@87.223.39.79] has joined #lisp 21:36:21 are you sure you're not doing optimization before necessary? 21:36:48 -!- root is now known as Guest19539 21:39:15 -!- __death [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:39:25 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:40:13 madman91 [i=madman91@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-9c0e9dea4f1d89b7] has joined #lisp 21:40:21 hello everyone 21:40:47 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:40:57 _3b 21:40:59 you there? 21:41:06 -!- Guest19539 is now known as topitop 21:41:11 <_3b> yes 21:41:22 dcjackson_ [n=dcj@nat02.service.sv2.tellme.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:43 how can i fiex the load-foreign library call? 21:41:43 i am reading through sicp and found this solution to an exercise online. I am running it in drscheme on linux, and it worked the first time, but now after something having happened i get an error. http://pastebin.com/m1a6f19d2 << program and error 21:43:24 manic12_: i went with #\^B 21:43:33 manic12_: the app should be sbcl only 21:43:56 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CF68.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:03 madman91: scheme isn't really a topic for this channel. This is mainly common lisp 21:44:07 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-143-69.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 21:44:10 madman91: #scheme perhaps? 21:44:23 H4ns3 [n=hans@p57A0CF68.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:40 Ah, sorry 21:45:56 :) Thank you madnificent 21:46:06 sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDA9DBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:46:06 madman91: no problem, come back here when you start learning the 'real' lisp :P ;) 21:46:15 newlisp?! 21:46:17 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:23 madnificent: :) will do 21:46:23 schmx: what?! 21:46:31 madnificent: Just keepin' it real! 21:46:41 yah dawg 21:46:44 <_3b> topitop: as i said before, replace that (make-pathname ...) with #p"/path/to/libode.dylib" 21:46:56 My god is this ode still going on. 21:47:22 *madnificent* was interested in ode, but I'd want to see examples about it not "it doesn't install" 21:47:41 -!- dcjackson_ [n=dcj@nat02.service.sv2.tellme.com] has quit [] 21:47:53 I seem to see this discussion about how to install it every day I look in to #lisp. all of yesterday to. 21:48:27 ok 21:48:46 topitop: What are you planning to do with the ode? 21:49:31 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:32 *madnificent* crosses fingers: racegame 21:49:43 (: 21:49:47 i want to evolve architectural structures using genetic programming and physic for evaluating an structure to know it it can maintain its own weight before it collapses 21:49:56 Wow. 21:50:08 Like that bicycle thing? 21:50:15 whats that? 21:50:22 schmx: wasn't that 2d? 21:50:28 There was some thing.. on reddit with a bicycle. 21:50:53 With a really cool animation when you reached the goal line. But that's another story. 21:50:56 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:50:57 yea. 21:51:06 topitop: That sounds like fun stuff you're doing though :) 21:51:38 i need to make it work ode with common lisp first 21:51:55 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0FAF8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:59 Beat it with a hammer (: 21:52:09 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:52:44 well good night anyway 21:53:07 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:17 _3b 21:53:24 like this? make -/usr/local/lib/libode.dylib? 21:55:28 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:56:05 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-48-84.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 21:56:38 -!- madman91 [i=madman91@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-9c0e9dea4f1d89b7] has left #lisp 21:56:42 <_3b> like (load-foreign-library #p"/usr/local/lib/libode.dylib") 21:57:15 are you talking about make or the cl-ode.lisp file? 21:57:23 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:57:26 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@nat/microsoft/x-a0a45171928cbd3a] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:58:18 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:33 <_3b> in cl-ode.lisp 21:58:37 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:46 <_3b> you already built/installed the .dylib, right? 21:58:54 yes i have 21:59:03 <_3b> if you didn't install it, either install it or change the path to match where it is 21:59:28 but _3b when i do (asdf-install:install :cl-ode) it checks in the cl-ode.lisp that doesnloads 21:59:44 it doesnt check in the cl-ode.lisp i have downloaded in my computer 21:59:44 dcjackson [n=dcj@dhcp-7.danastreet.live555.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:00 so if i change in the file on my computer it doesnt read from there 22:00:53 <_3b> you should be using asdf to load it, not asdf-install 22:01:00 oh 22:01:01 ok 22:01:09 topitop: assuming you're using sbcl: the file is at ~/.sbcl/ :) 22:01:27 which file madnificent? 22:01:37 topitop: the asdf-installed file 22:01:41 *files 22:03:11 -!- KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:03:21 -!- H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0FAF8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:03:51 like this? 22:03:52 (asdf:install :cl-ode) 22:04:54 ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-16-20.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:36 -!- sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDA9DBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:54 topitop: (asdf-install:install :cl-ode) 22:06:12 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-92-109.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:06:35 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:46 madnificent when i do that it check in the cl-ode.lisp file it downloads, it doesnt look in the file i changed 22:07:02 <_3b> (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :cl-ode) 22:07:14 <_3b> (i think) 22:07:22 ok 22:07:41 5 22:08:52 joelmccracken_ [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-204-183.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:00 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [No route to host] 22:12:29 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:13:42 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@dhcp-7.danastreet.live555.com] has quit [] 22:13:51 -!- postamar_ [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-135.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:13:53 topitop: haven't I told you where the file it downloads resides at? (I don't know your exact configuration, but it isn't hard to make it recognise your manually downloaded ode 22:14:11 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:14:25 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-135.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 22:14:44 helping topitop seems to be futile 22:15:25 stassats: he's been here for a long time? 22:15:33 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Client Quit] 22:15:43 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit ["k"] 22:15:46 i changed the so extention in the cl-ode.lisp file 22:16:12 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 22:16:25 but when i try to load the cl-ode file i still getting this: 22:16:26 Unable to load foreign library: /var/root/.sbcl/site/cl-ode/ode-0.8/ode/src/libode.so 22:16:31 madnificent: not for a long time, but that's not the first time 22:16:44 <_3b> topitop: thats why i told you to change the whole path, not just the extension 22:16:52 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:16:58 ok 22:17:42 <_3b> though it looks like th eextension didn't change, so you might be editing the wrong file or something 22:17:46 stassats: couldn't we point him to docs that would teach him what he doesn't know yet? 22:18:37 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:19:04 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19:47 _3b how can i change the path? 22:20:07 -!- xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-5.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [] 22:20:21 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:20:23 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:24 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 22:20:44 madnificent: sure we could 22:20:52 <_3b> topitop: paste the changes you made to lisppaste 22:20:59 ok 22:21:46 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless85.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:40 madnificent: I think someone pointed out those docs yesterday. 22:22:59 Or maybe it was the day before that. It seems like forever anyway. 22:23:02 (: 22:23:09 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:23:16 *schmx* had too much coffee so no sleep. 22:23:19 But much code! 22:23:20 well, that's third or fourth day about that cl-ode, no offense or anything, but that's a little bit too much 22:23:20 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host9-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 22:23:25 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@82.83.99.137] has joined #lisp 22:23:30 http://paste.lisp.org/display/76717 22:23:34 schmx: oh, sadly 22:23:46 stassats: It's every time I have been looking in #lisp the last.. I don't remember how long.. it's about this ode (: 22:24:08 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f49b9.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:24:17 -!- tsuru` [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:24:22 i just change this like _3b 22:24:23 :type "dylib")) 22:24:32 before i got 22:24:36 :type "so")) 22:24:50 <_3b> topitop: see annotation 22:24:54 where should i put the path? 22:25:05 ok 22:25:22 topitop: May I request that maybe you keep the same nickname here in the future? I see you have a new one each day I look it. It would be of great benefit to me if you would use the same one. 22:25:26 (: 22:25:37 look in 22:25:41 sorry before i was topo 22:25:47 Yes, I know. 22:25:48 topito is like little topo 22:26:14 Yes, yes.I have no troubles recognizing you even with the name change. but I think my irssi would (: 22:26:17 ;) 22:26:18 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-135.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:26:37 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:48 Anyway I'll poke some mcclim instead of sleep. I'll leave you with the party here. 22:27:26 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:27:35 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:37 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:28:06 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 22:28:17 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host60-120-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:50 _3b 22:28:58 -!- deego [n=user@74.255.63.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:28:59 its still me asking for the dylib.so ile 22:29:00 file 22:29:37 i got this 22:29:37 http://paste.lisp.org/display/76718 22:30:49 <_3b> and the file you edited is /var/root/.sbcl/site/cl-ode.lisp ? 22:30:50 xprop tells me there are windows that have _NET_WM_DESKTOP set but (find-if #'(lambda (w) (find-if #'(lambda (p) (eql p :_NET_WM_DESKTOP)) (xlib:list-properties w))) (xlib:query-tree (xlib:screen-root (xlib:display-default-screen (xlib:open-default-display))))) returns NIL. Any ideas what's going wrong? 22:31:03 prip [n=_prip@host152-124-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:35:40 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 22:35:40 btw, what's the difference between #'(lambda.. and plain (lambda... ? 22:35:43 let me see 22:35:53 sepisultrum: not in this case 22:36:18 stassats: it doesn't return NIL for you? 22:36:37 <_3b> sepisultrum: #'(lambda ...) uses a reader macro to expand to (function 'lambda ...)), (lambda ...) uses a normal macro to expand to the same thing 22:36:57 <_3b> sorry, (function (lambda ...)) 22:37:11 _3b: so just plain (lambda.. is also ok 22:37:14 sepisultrum: yes, though i don't know what it's doing 22:37:16 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:37:29 <_3b> yeah 22:37:32 stassats: downloads and installs a virus :D 22:37:49 <_3b> #' is only needed if you care about portability to pre-ansi CLs 22:38:08 stassats: no, it looks for windows that have the _NET_WM_DESKTOP property set. Which is the number of the virtual desktop 22:38:24 <_3b> #' on lambda that is, it is still useful on normal function names 22:38:25 _3b: ok, I don't :) 22:38:38 dtulig [n=user@cpe-72-179-46-14.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:43 how can i save with vim:? 22:38:49 sepisultrum: that part i understand, i mean, under the hood, to the extent to be able to help 22:40:25 <_3b> sepisultrum: try printing out the results of the individual calls and see if they are what you expect? 22:40:26 stassats: but I don't get why it doesn't work for me then. _NET_MW_DESKTOP should be set for every *normal* window, which is what xprop tells me. What clx do you use? 22:40:52 sepisultrum: krystof's 22:41:05 _3b: well, I've been experimenting with this for a while now, and some suff seems to be strange 22:41:10 sepisultrum: http://trittweiler.blogspot.com/2008/12/on-relationship-of-lambda-and-lambda.html 22:41:20 doylent [n=doylent@host116-126-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:41:44 sepisultrum: how do i tell with xprop whether it is set? 22:42:28 stassats: well, just xprop, then click a window and have a look at the output 22:42:38 _NET_WM_DESKTOP(CARDINAL) = 0 22:42:42 for example 22:43:12 tcr: thanks 22:43:13 well, i tested that on 3 windows, not one has it 22:43:21 stassats: wow, strange 22:43:37 stassats: do you have a wm with virtual desktops then? 22:43:40 <_3b> tcr: saying (lambda ...) expands to #'(lambda ...) sounds like an oversimplification too :) 22:43:55 sepisultrum: that's ion3 22:44:00 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 22:45:10 hey _3b 22:45:14 i think it worked 22:46:23 stassats: btw, is that clx the one from sbcl? I couln't find any usefull information on Krystof's clx 22:46:31 portable-clx? 22:47:27 from http://common-lisp.net/~crhodes/clx 22:48:27 _3b i got this: 22:48:28 ; /var/root/.sbcl/site/cl-ode/cl-ode.fasl written 22:48:28 ; compilation finished in 0:00:35 22:48:52 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:50:04 <_3b> topitop: sounds like it worked then, try running the test or something 22:50:17 sepisultrum: well, i fired up xfce, which has _NET_WM_DESKTOP, and it still returns nil 22:50:28 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-138-129.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:50:30 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:34 how? 22:50:52 stassats: wait a sec, I might somehow need to intern the symbol into X 22:51:12 <_3b> topitop: (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'cl-ode-test) maybe? 22:51:45 i got 22:51:46 ; /var/root/.sbcl/site/cl-ode/cl-ode-test.fasl written 22:51:46 ; compilation finished in 0:00:00 22:52:37 (xlib:intern-atom (xlib:open-default-display) :_NET_WM_DESKTOP) but it doesn't help either 22:53:00 <_3b> topitop: (ode-test::test) or (ode-test::collision-test) maybe? and stop pasting stuff into the channel 22:53:03 how can i test the library? 22:53:07 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:53:27 i get something wierd 22:53:32 look 22:53:42 <_3b> no idea what either of those should do though, so you are on your own from there unless you can find someone who knows the lib 22:53:45 its 6 lines , can i paste here? 22:53:53 <_3b> no, put it on lisppaste 22:53:57 ok 22:53:59 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:54:16 http://paste.lisp.org/display/76721 22:55:02 stassats: I thaught you got a non-nil result earier on 22:55:18 bighouse [n=bighouse@bas1-montreal42-1178045690.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:55:18 <_3b> topitop: sounds like something is wrong with the bindings or the .dylib :( 22:55:28 : < 22:55:43 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:57:05 any idea of how to fix that? 22:57:14 sepisultrum: no 22:57:34 -!- crod [n=cmell@x250002.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:15 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:58:23 harmattan [n=harmatta@213.37.175.136.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:58:29 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:59:25 : < 22:59:53 is it good style to use keywords as functionnames? 22:59:54 crod [n=cmell@y192004.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:00:07 stassats: ok, that changes a lot :( 23:00:17 slash_: bad 23:00:29 :S 23:00:54 -!- doylent [n=doylent@host116-126-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 23:01:30 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:01:48 well, s-xml gives me for every element it enters, its name as keyword 23:02:02 so i though about doing a (funcall name ...) 23:02:31 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:45 _3b does it worked for you? 23:03:07 you can do (funcall (find-symbol (symbol-name name) :right-package) ...) 23:03:17 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:03:25 no 23:03:48 or 23:03:49 ? 23:04:12 and! 23:04:38 is that some sort of associative array? 23:05:01 what? package-system? 23:05:53 ok what i trying to achieve is e.g: 23:06:02 Beket [n=stathis@ppp15-223.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:06:04 and i get :|foo| from s-xml 23:06:15 so i would write a function named :|foo| 23:06:48 which i could call directly with funcall 23:07:04 or (funcall (find-symbol (string-upcase name) :right-package) ...) 23:09:03 -!- harmattan [n=harmatta@213.37.175.136.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:09:34 hmm yes 23:09:36 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:10:52 i can't find in clhs, whether it's actually allowed to have a function with a keyword name 23:11:10 but that's a bad style, anyway 23:11:58 i go for your solution then 23:12:20 <_3b> topitop: i haven't tried it, and even if i did, it wouldn't help since i don't use a mac 23:12:37 lispworks, for example, chokes on such functions 23:13:12 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:15 sbcl seems to accept it 23:14:38 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@82.83.99.137] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:16 -!- slom__ [n=slom@pD9EB4DAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:20 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:00 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:17:18 -!- ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:10 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:18:36 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest10058 23:18:47 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:19:00 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:19:05 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@99.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:19:16 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:29 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:43 dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:15 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:10 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:26:09 : < 23:27:48 -!- antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 23:28:03 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:01 -!- ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-16-20.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:32:17 rukubites [n=user@d58-110-103-122.mas6.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:32:25 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 23:32:40 Are there any postgres/postmodern wizards in the house? 23:33:27 vostibackle [n=vosti@cpe-24-28-81-28.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:34:03 why does this work?: (+ . (2 3)) 23:34:19 clhs ( 23:34:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_da.htm 23:34:51 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.21.125] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:35:22 yeah, I guess I get it... the reader reads the cons, the cons is a list, the list is code 23:35:42 pretty bizarre though 23:36:30 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 23:37:36 clhs . 23:37:36 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for .. 23:37:43 Bah. I don't really understand the . stuff. 23:37:47 -!- l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:38:03 the page stassats linked sortof explains it 23:38:18 or http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html , which is what I'm reading 23:38:20 SeveredCross: '(3 . 4) is like (cons 3 4) 23:38:36 Oh, okay. 23:38:44 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-117-45.liwest.at] has quit [] 23:38:48 so, (+ . (3 4)) is like (cons '+ (cons 3 (cons 4 nil))) 23:39:03 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:03 which is '(+ 3 4), right 23:39:24 Ah, got it. So, doing something like (+ . (3 4)) is purely a pathological example, rather than a common thing to do? 23:39:31 -!- patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 23:39:33 toxeus [n=toxeus@adsl-176-113-110.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:46 Yes. 23:39:48 (At least on such a simple level--I'd imagine on higher levels, code like that may be more common). 23:39:54 yeah I just happened to try it because I got a funny error when I typed (0 . 0) without a quote 23:39:56 Okay, cool. 23:40:16 Dotted lists are essentially never sensible as code 23:40:54 SeveredCross: yeah, no one with a sane mind writes (+ . (3 4)) 23:41:05 :) 23:41:06 though, (3 . 4) is pretty ok 23:41:06 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:42:06 how come it doesn't have to be (+ . '(3 4))? 23:42:20 No luck on postmodernites? :( 23:42:29 vostibackle: it's done at the read time 23:43:08 phf [n=phf@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:15 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:43:20 (read-from-string "(+ . (3 4))") => (+ 3 4) 23:43:23 ey 23:43:30 hey what does it means? 23:43:31 Expected in: flat namespace 23:44:20 what is flat namespace? 23:45:43 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:03 -!- p_l [n=plasek@pp82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["leaving"] 23:46:09 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-48-84.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:01 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:48:03 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:48:30 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:49:14 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:51 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:51:12 mjf [n=mjf@r6y212.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:51:22 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:51:23 -!- gueux [n=g@d193-152-246.home3.cgocable.net] has left #lisp 23:51:42 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:43 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y212.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 23:52:02 mjf [n=mjf@r6y212.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:52:11 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:54:29 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y212.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 23:55:00 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-201.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:56:27 p_l [i=plasek@korn.rootnode.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:14 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:40 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:52 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AF52.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"]