00:00:19 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:01:34 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:17 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:01 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:07:10 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:26 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:08:28 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 00:08:58 matley [n=matley@83.224.137.186] has joined #lisp 00:17:11 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-3.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:19:15 drafael2 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-6.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:19:49 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 00:20:22 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 00:20:23 Edima` [n=user@208.75.91.170] has joined #lisp 00:23:22 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:57 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:38 c|mell [n=cmell@x250036.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:28:59 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:10 Mcclim's menu-bar works great if you don't yourself specify a menubar pane.. but whenever I specify a :pane as :menu-bar, its height in mcclim shows as 0, and the pane is barely visible.. no matter how much I mess with min-height, and height 00:33:19 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-138-164.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:47 Does CCL on Win32 run into the same problems SBCL does, or is it actually usable? 00:34:58 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host209-181-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 00:35:08 Ah, but works if instead of :menu-bar, I specify: (clim-internals::make-menu-bar 'menubar-command-table)) 00:35:17 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 00:35:50 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-3.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:10 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 00:37:18 -!- iStig [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:37:24 is the win32 port of clozure even finished? 00:37:30 Finally, success. I can tie manually specify the menu-bar panes.. . Now, I will simply flip around my panes for various layouts.. in response to button-presses and such.. For fun, I even got two menu-bars, one at the top and one at the bottom.. 00:37:40 s/tie// 00:38:31 I dunno, but the "WindowsNotes" on their wiki suggest that they have a vastly different and far superior set of problems. 00:38:36 Lain [n=Lain@c-71-224-213-131.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:54 their main clozure page says that the port is 'in progress' 00:39:11 The downside is that they still need cygwin as a build environment. 00:39:14 i use ccl on darwin/ppc where it's solid. 00:40:06 Yeah, I have a need for a lisp that can use COM objects and I don't really want to install cygwin. Though, at this point, it looks like I need cygwin whatever I do. 00:40:28 i've never looked at lisp on win32. 00:40:51 i take it there are signifigant hurdles to make a unix originated lisp work there. 00:41:01 nyef: Corman? 00:41:15 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:41:21 p_l: Considering it half-heartedly. 00:41:40 Also, it would be interesting to play with one of unix-based lisps on SUA. It appears to support a BSD-like API 00:41:45 I'd rather avoid the use of commercial lisp... 00:42:08 nyef: Corman has very nice licensing scheme (you also get all the code for the lisp itself) 00:42:10 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:26 <_3b> does corman work easily with slime yet? 00:42:35 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A46E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:42:48 _3b: I haven't checked - not booting to windows for a long time :-) 00:42:57 as far as commercial lisps go, xach frequently recommended lispworks for win32, iirc. 00:43:20 If I'm going to install cygwin, I may as well just use SBCL, as I should be able to get that mostly working. 00:43:26 Well, LispWorks is outside my reach, as well as AllegroCL :) 00:43:51 <_3b> mingw works fine for sbcl (aside from having to specify args during builds) 00:44:00 i'd be a very happy person if sbcl was at feature parity on all the platforms I need. 00:44:22 (word of mouth says that uni's sparc workstations that had AllegroCL died last half-session) 00:44:25 iStig [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:54 nyef: You can also play with ECL and just jump into C for the parts required to interface with windows 00:44:57 Feature parity? We can probably do that more easily than getting all the features working on all the platforms you use. We just have to not support them in groups of two features, right? 00:45:27 my only issue with sbcl is that threads on ppc don't work. 00:45:51 Nah, I just need to be able to talk to an ODBC source, which means a COM interface. And a COM interface should be fairly easy to build. 00:45:54 i have no need for windows, so my envelope is quite a narrow one. 00:46:20 Threads on PPC? Isn't that mostly a GC problem? 00:46:27 nyef: well, Corman has in-built support for most of windows primitives, including full COM/DCOM support 00:46:48 nyef: You could also use RDNZL 00:46:54 I've never actually looked at the underlying issue. I thought that the porting work for the feature was just not finished. 00:47:43 Fade: Did I just hear you say that you didn't want threading on PPC enough to actually do anything about it? 00:48:09 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:48:16 you heard me say that it's a shrinking target for a new product. we're just moving to lisp. 00:49:10 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@66.166.232.134] has joined #lisp 00:49:16 ... That wasn't a "no". 00:49:25 heh 00:49:37 *_3b* hasn't even cared enough about threading to move to another lisp :p 00:50:42 i'm sort of just becoming a pseudo-competent lisp programmer. perhaps when my skillset tips further toward the 'ninja' end of the spectrum, I'll look at mucking about in sbcl internals. 00:50:47 <_3b> do need to try win32 ccl at some point though 00:51:12 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:52:03 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.46.114] has joined #lisp 00:52:48 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.46.114] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 00:53:49 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:27 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 00:58:46 -!- drafael2 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-6.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 00:58:53 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-6.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:59:11 Vichfret [n=Vicfred@189.228.53.30] has joined #lisp 01:01:59 -!- cipher [n=user@pool-71-184-152-81.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:02:38 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:02:53 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:15 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:03:31 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:20 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:05:46 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 01:06:00 ah, gengc is available on ppc. 01:06:09 -!- pjb` [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:06:25 pjb` [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:31 there's additional work required for locking primitives and thread library calls. 01:07:47 At one point SBCL/Win32 threading was down to synchronization primitives and stop-for-GC. :-/ 01:08:00 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:09:29 is that because sbcl assumes linux style futexes? 01:09:45 ... I feel stupid 01:10:12 Some time ago I was trying to compile ECL from repo and have it consistenly fail on me... now I found that I had already installed ecl 01:10:51 sure, it's old version, but still >_> 01:10:57 Fade: Or the posixoid emulation thereof known as "lutexes", yes. 01:11:06 I basically didn't want to deal with it. 01:11:10 *nod* 01:11:27 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087E14B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:11:57 Partly because I don't deal well with multithreading anyway, and partly because I just plain don't understand posix mutexes and condition variables or futexes in the first place. 01:11:57 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087E14B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:24 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.137.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:12:26 it's a hairy part of the system. 01:13:12 Indeed. Changing the calling convention is one thing, but dealing with thread synchronization? -That- scares me. 01:14:24 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:42 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:16:52 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:51 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087E14B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:18:29 Okay, I'm off for the evening. 01:18:34 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 01:18:38 later 01:19:36 jao [n=jao@221.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:17 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:23:03 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 01:26:01 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.165] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:29:37 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:05 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:15 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:36:10 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:36:37 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-6.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:37:56 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-6.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:38:09 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:42:02 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 01:43:38 I have a macro m defined in a package p. I try (p::m 2), and slime even auto-completes p::m for me.. but it says Function p::m is not defined. 01:43:58 The same macro works fine if I define it in my current package, clim-user 01:44:18 -!- jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:50 I am sorry, I found the bug. 01:47:15 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp100.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 01:47:15 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AB7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:47:24 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-54.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 01:47:28 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:48:14 -!- jao [n=jao@221.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:49:58 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:11 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp13-101.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:56 -!- amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:18 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@66.166.232.134] has quit [] 01:56:45 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0EF0.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:01:29 -!- drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-6.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 02:01:40 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-6.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:04:06 rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:33 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:08:07 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:24 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:13 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:28 -!- Lain [n=Lain@c-71-224-213-131.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:12:00 Lain [n=Lain@c-71-224-213-131.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:42 Vicfredboy [n=Vicfred@189.228.61.58] has joined #lisp 02:13:50 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:14:01 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 02:15:04 It's been a little while since I used SLIME, is it still supposed to open the REPL in a new buffer after compiling the FASLs in the *inferior-lisp* buffer when you run M-x slime? 02:15:13 -!- Vicfredboy [n=Vicfred@189.228.61.58] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 02:15:32 IIRC it used to create a *slime-repl [name of lisp here]* buffer. 02:15:44 Vicfredboy [n=Vicfred@189.228.61.58] has joined #lisp 02:16:31 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 02:17:18 -!- Vicfredboy [n=Vicfred@189.228.61.58] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 02:17:43 Vicfredboy [n=Vicfred@189.228.61.58] has joined #lisp 02:17:43 -!- archangeleon [n=archange@cpe-72-228-162-52.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:19:34 -!- Vicfredboy [n=Vicfred@189.228.61.58] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 02:20:09 Vicfredboy [n=Vicfred@189.228.61.58] has joined #lisp 02:21:01 -!- Vichfret [n=Vicfred@189.228.53.30] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:22:03 -!- elurin [n=user@88.231.223.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:22:30 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-59.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:22:53 -!- Lain [n=Lain@c-71-224-213-131.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:25:33 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 02:25:48 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has left #lisp 02:26:12 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:27:20 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:27:51 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:27:52 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 02:28:34 metasyntax: These days I think the REPL has been moved to a contrib. 02:28:59 (if that's what you're asking) 02:29:03 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:29:15 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 02:30:02 Has anyone used clim-www or similar lately? something that enables you to use clim for web applications (not as a web browser, but to host your clim application on the web)? 02:30:37 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:32:09 Once you fall in love with clim, you wish every gui was written in it ..(not that you're not a novice..) 02:38:22 mikezor: aha! Thanks, that's what I was used to. 02:38:25 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has quit [] 02:38:38 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:39:11 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:40:03 deego: I was under the impression that it was a rather one-shot thing 02:40:11 *p_l* is waiting for ECL to compile 02:42:17 I see 02:44:10 hmmm... after I compile ECL, I shall compile Qt4.5 + WebKit and run away with fusss's? idea of having AJAX guis served by in-process webserver to a webkit running in the same process.. 02:44:15 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:44:41 hrmn 02:44:44 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:02 why not get qt4.5 running /w cl instead? :) 02:45:04 -!- Vicfredboy [n=Vicfred@189.228.61.58] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:45:26 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:28 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:45:33 Fade: Who said I'm not going to start it from CL? :P 02:46:02 heh 02:46:56 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 02:47:13 SWIG seems a nice way to build the binding 02:47:35 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:39 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:57:44 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:01:55 p_l: what would be the point? 03:02:01 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:02:08 p_l: web applications on the desktop? 03:02:33 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 03:02:40 vostibackle: UI that looks the same on all platforms? 03:03:03 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.61.58] has joined #lisp 03:03:30 though it's more of a joke, I admit. My real goal is to get a fully-functional qt4.5 binding, possibly with qt4.5 for embedded too 03:03:46 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.61.58] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 03:04:13 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.61.58] has joined #lisp 03:04:50 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.61.58] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:05:06 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:10 dejai [n=dejai@230.15.233.220.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:06:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 03:06:54 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:08:18 archangeleon [n=archange@cpe-72-228-162-52.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:17 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:14:24 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-df83006a50440708] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:15:23 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-221-227-246.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:18:41 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 03:19:05 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.61.58] has joined #lisp 03:20:48 *p_l* just found that SWIG has some support for VMS. This is going to be *FUN* 03:30:33 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:48 -!- archangeleon [n=archange@cpe-72-228-162-52.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:32:02 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 03:32:32 archangeleon [n=archange@cpe-72-228-162-52.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:35:40 -!- tetha [n=hk@pD9EE6543.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:35:49 tetha [n=hk@pD950F96E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:07 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:43:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:59 lakedenma [n=irchon@166.192.51.45] has joined #lisp 03:48:41 -!- lakedenma [n=irchon@166.192.51.45] has quit [Client Quit] 03:50:15 what would be a way to load a package, then run some code in it, and then reset everything and run some other code in it? 03:50:36 like for a testing framework 03:50:39 (delete-package :foo) 03:51:45 is it sane to load and delete a package for every single test method? 03:51:59 or you do do-symbols before and after the code, and makunbound / unintern the difference. 03:52:42 well, I think that you don't really have to do anything, but you're the concerned one. 03:53:23 you don't think you need to reset the state of whatever's in the package between test methods? 03:54:08 vostibackle: if you delete a package, then when you load more code it gets different unrelated symbols 03:54:29 that depends on the state! You've only mentioned 'a pacakge', which makes me think of symbols, which are all that packages deal with. 03:54:45 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:05 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:55:15 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:55:28 well, like, if a package exports a global variable, and one test methods changes that variable, I'd think it should be reset before running another test method 03:56:48 well, just as you can do-symbols before and after a test to detect new symbols, you can do-symbols to detect EQ differences. 03:57:12 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:11 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:59:12 oh and just save the initial values and stick them back in after the test 03:59:26 -!- deego [n=user@74.255.63.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:00:42 benny [n=benny@i577A10CC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:04:48 vostibackle: if you delete the package then when you create it again you have a different symbol, so a different global variable, whose value has nothing to do with what the test method might have been compiled with 04:05:31 *p_l* thinks he will fall in love with SWIG 04:05:46 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:52 i was also looking at swig the other day. 04:06:05 kpreid: right but the other test methods have already been loaded I think 04:06:25 I'll probably just find a testing framework 04:06:46 Fade: Well, I just got some very rudimentary wrapper for a library, mostly by copy-pasting function definitions from its documentation 04:07:52 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:07:59 If it goes well, I'm going to look forward to playing with C++ 04:08:20 -!- 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[n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:09:41 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:11:34 -!- archangeleon [n=archange@cpe-72-228-162-52.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:11:59 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:51 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:18:11 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 05:18:23 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:47 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:25:06 -!- inverse_schwa [n=archange@cpe-72-228-162-52.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:40 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-99.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 05:36:27 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:37:40 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 05:42:21 -!- vostibackle [n=vosti@cpe-24-28-81-28.austin.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 05:58:27 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:59:28 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:31 Morning. 06:02:48 morning. 06:04:28 Evening. 06:05:19 what is better when writing a FFI wrapper - converting the types into native Lisp types asap or making to that Lisp code that expects lists/hashmaps/etc. works directly on those types? 06:05:54 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.224.70] has joined #lisp 06:08:22 I think that would depend on your speed/space requirements 06:08:50 and if you're making a general library for unknown requirements perhaps both options might be useful 06:09:13 Some libraries implement this as a low- and high- level pair of libraries stacked atop each other. 06:09:42 Well, I'm wrapping a db library (written in C) which uses it's own internal list/string/hashmap/ordered tree types 06:10:06 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:11:10 as far as I see from the interface, there wouldn't be much use in writing more than conversion routines for situations where said library uses those types as parameters/return value, but I was wondering what is "consensus" on that :) 06:11:57 i'd wrap it in lisp 06:12:05 safer, more reliable, usually. 06:12:15 and then you can optimize later if Really necessary 06:12:21 thanks 06:12:25 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:12:47 now I wonder how to force swig to make callbacks to Lisp :3 06:14:11 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:32 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:14:35 (around 1/4 of API is already wrapped in basic, low level stuff!) 06:15:40 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 06:17:31 Beket [n=stathis@ppp13-101.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 06:20:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 06:22:44 archangeleon [n=archange@cpe-72-228-162-52.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:26:16 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250036.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:28:49 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:33:37 if you were to make a shell (as in /bin/sh) in Lisp, would you have it share the world ar separate Lisps for each shell? 06:36:56 tic: I'd make a special command to fork the shell :) 06:37:18 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:58 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:38:53 p_l, I was pondering if there could be an advantage of having data accessible from all terminals. 06:40:57 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 06:41:27 c|mell [n=cmell@x250015.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 06:43:35 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 06:46:19 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:47:23 hmm... anyone interested in effects of my few hours of dumping definitions into swig? xD 06:49:08 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:49:23 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:49:46 at the moment, the output file is >1100 lines, generated from ~400 lines of swig definitions 06:50:01 -!- archangeleon [n=archange@cpe-72-228-162-52.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:59 I could have probably done it faster if I just used abstract db api, but it's fun to learn SWIG :) 06:53:16 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp100.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:55:17 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:00:20 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:00:29 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 07:01:01 swig is horrible 07:01:59 tic: Why? 07:02:27 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 07:02:29 (though I have already hit one bug, but CFFI backend in SWIG is rather unknown) 07:03:22 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:51 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 07:04:52 p_l, because you have to tell it about the members of structures. it should figure it out without me telling it. 07:04:59 s/it out/them out/ 07:05:29 tic: afaik it finds them by itself quite nicely 07:06:20 p_l, sorry, I forgot to specify that member *arrays* aren't handled. even of built-ins like integer, char, etc. 07:06:43 ah 07:07:04 but still, as far as I have seen, CFFI makes me do more :P 07:07:26 I was planning on writing a language that compiled down to .i just for that.cause. :) 07:07:30 Yeah, probably. 07:07:54 I still wonder if writing a wrapper on top of CFFI will save you more time in the long end though. 07:07:58 s/end/run 07:08:09 Well, we might get to use clang for automatic generation of bindings, but it doesn't support C++ very well at the moment 07:08:19 mulander [n=user@80.51.122.72] has joined #lisp 07:08:57 tic: At the moment I don't see much difference - I end up with basically vanilla CFFI code + few macros 07:09:35 Alright 07:10:08 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:10:53 Ugh, I'm converting the flow of a huge script from sequential-with-conditionals to parallel-without-conditionals (there is much duplication and data is set almost everywhere). it's a tricky problem 07:11:31 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:11:54 -!- xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:11:59 hmmm... I think I've got nearly the whole API mapped into CFFI, except for abstract db 07:12:00 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 07:12:19 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:12:20 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:12:49 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:13:10 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:15:59 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:18:12 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 07:20:59 yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:21:10 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-68-244.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 07:21:31 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-25.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 07:22:05 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:27:20 -!- yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:27:33 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 07:29:57 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:28 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 07:40:51 Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp118-208-142-163.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:06 -!- Edima` [n=user@208.75.91.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:43:39 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.233.85] has joined #lisp 07:46:17 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:48:13 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:53:50 is there any practical difference between (mapc x y) and (map nil x y)? 07:53:56 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-138-129.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:56:33 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250015.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 07:57:47 Ogedei: mapc is more specific, and there is a general rule in programming that you should use the most specific construct that will do the trick. 07:57:53 [and good morning everyone] 07:59:11 thanks, and good morning 08:00:11 LostMonarch [n=roby@host209-181-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:00:48 Ogedei: For the same reason, you use (1+ x) rather than (+ x 1) and (incf x y) rather than (setf x (+ x y)) 08:02:28 morning, beach. 08:02:53 *tic* is just about to reinvent the Standard Method Combination. 08:04:07 Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 08:07:45 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-45-11-54.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:08:37 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:10:09 appletizer [i=user@82-45-11-54.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:11:46 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:12:20 sysfault [n=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 08:12:23 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-52-151.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 08:15:26 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:21:39 cheatcountry1 [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:26:54 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:27:00 woopdeedoo [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:09 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:34 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:47 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:37:05 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:38:29 p_l: as far as I could see, SUA uses somewhat old NetBSD libs and tools. 08:38:52 I can try to dig more into it, if this is needed. 08:40:15 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp13-101.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:40:59 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:54 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:53:01 kjfletch [n=kjfletch@94-170-16-78.cable.ubr13.newc.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:53:07 topo [n=topo@87.223.39.79] has joined #lisp 08:54:24 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:54:35 hi? 08:54:48 can i ask something ? 08:55:06 you can 08:55:11 -!- Casualty-Headcra [n=thomash@d142-179-21-63.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [] 08:55:26 how can i install a library in common lisp? 08:55:31 but I'm a bit disturbed by the fact that you didn't first ask whether you were alloed to ask whether you were allowed to ask something 08:55:57 which implementation, which library? 08:56:09 are you familiar with ASDF's use of .asd files? 08:56:54 you can manually unpack a library somewhere, then link the .asd file from the correct directory, or use asdf-install, or clbuild, but I'm not very familiar with the latter 08:57:22 this one oge 08:57:25 ogedei 08:57:26 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-ode/ 08:59:00 you'll need cffi and all its dependencies 08:59:11 what does (find-package :asdf) do you on your system? 08:59:37 and if that finds a package, try (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :asdf-install) 08:59:42 i have it 08:59:56 i use asdf 08:59:56 then (asdf-install:install :cl-ode) 09:00:12 ok thanks im gonna try 09:00:18 and where should i put ode? 09:00:25 inside my common lisp folder? 09:00:27 it's downloaded automatically 09:00:29 if you're lucky 09:00:58 depending on your implementation, it might end up somewhere like ~/.sbcl/site 09:01:56 anyone present who's associated with bordeaux-threads? the docs appear to be down -- http://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation 09:02:04 do i dont need to download the ode library? 09:02:08 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:02:08 right 09:02:11 the asdf command dowloads ? 09:02:16 thats what you are saying me? 09:02:17 asdf-install, yes 09:02:24 ummmm 09:02:29 im gonna try 09:02:32 thanks 09:07:22 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:09:04 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 09:09:51 -!- woopdeedoo is now known as holycow 09:10:37 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17:41 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:17:56 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:19:16 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-68-244.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:26 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 09:24:40 vy pasted "bitonic-sort" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76608 09:25:55 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:03 hi; I've a problem with packages 09:26:09 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 09:26:09 I created a new package 09:26:17 went in with (in-package) 09:26:27 now I try to define an eval function 09:26:37 but sbcl, after (load), tells me it's already defined 09:26:53 can't I have an eval function since I'm in a new package ? 09:28:29 EVAL is a name in the common-lisp package 09:29:10 yes, I know that, that's why I'm in another package 09:29:24 but your package uses the cl package, no? 09:29:39 yes 09:29:40 <_3b> should work fine in another package, as long as you don't import the eval from CL package 09:29:47 oh 09:29:48 well... there you go (: 09:29:53 you can shadow the name EVAL 09:29:57 clhs shadow 09:29:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_shadow.htm 09:30:07 (there's also a :shadow clause in defpackage) 09:30:10 <_3b> that way works too 09:30:20 I'm trying to understand the way metacircular evaluators work 09:30:30 didn't know I'd have to shadow function with similar names 09:30:32 thank you 09:31:11 did you see SICP on it? 09:31:54 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:31:56 nope, I have "lisp in small pieces" and PAIP 09:31:59 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 09:32:15 (works with :shadow, thank you) 09:34:16 I'll link you to the video lecture 09:35:10 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5297666536291617925&ei=rD-ySZHTKITGwgPi6tH3Aw&q=lecture+7a&hl=en&emb=1 09:35:43 ah cool! thx 09:36:22 good for my lisp skills, good for my english learning, that's perfect 09:38:01 np 09:38:10 the whole lecture series is great 09:38:22 that one covers the meta circular evaluator specifically 09:48:09 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:53:34 [mark] [n=mark@unaffiliated/mark/x-957811] has joined #lisp 09:53:38 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.233.85] has left #lisp 09:59:33 sohum [n=sohum@burgmann181.anu.edu.au] has joined #lisp 10:00:12 is there a UNIQUE, so that, say, (unique '(:a :b :a :c)) => (:a :b :c)? 10:00:59 yes, it's spelled REMOVE-DUPLICATES 10:01:15 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:01:54 cool 10:01:58 thankee very much 10:03:01 -!- sohum [n=sohum@burgmann181.anu.edu.au] has left #lisp 10:03:03 -!- cddr [i=andy@user-5443e499.lns1-c9.dsl.pol.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:03:10 sohum: There is also a destructive version of it called DELETE-DUPLICATES. 10:11:27 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 10:11:43 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:15:44 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:25:53 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 10:27:15 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:27:17 hyperboreean [n=none@89.18.3.66] has joined #lisp 10:27:30 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:28:14 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:29:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 10:35:22 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:37:30 Taggnostr [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 10:39:18 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:39:38 The-Kenny [n=moritz@80.150.60.2] has joined #lisp 10:40:42 mije [n=mije@tal33-5-88-181-16-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:23 -!- Taggnostr2 [n=x@wolf.yok.utu.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:54:05 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:55:30 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:57:42 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:54 -!- theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:02:40 str.join [ random.choice("abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz") for i in xrange(10) ] 11:02:49 Oops, sorry. 11:05:14 theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 11:06:19 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:34 jao [n=jao@221.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:52 arquebus [n=sfd@189.221.2.241] has joined #lisp 11:14:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:30 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 11:15:52 Is it possible to specify the type of a counting variable when using loop? 11:16:26 c|mell [n=cmell@x250009.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:17:48 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:18:59 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 11:22:39 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@80.150.60.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:23:36 -!- theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:25:25 theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 11:25:35 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 11:25:47 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@82.83.99.137] has joined #lisp 11:27:17 sepisultrum: (loop for i of-type fixnum from 1 to 10 ...) if that is what you meant. 11:29:40 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.224.70] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:30:02 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.224.70] has joined #lisp 11:30:46 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:31:36 schmx: ahh, thanks 11:31:57 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 11:32:52 sepisultrum: I think type specifiers work with most stuff in LOOP. 11:33:32 cool 11:34:39 phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 11:34:41 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:41:02 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:41:17 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:43:34 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 11:43:51 sweemeng [n=sweemeng@118.101.45.192] has joined #lisp 11:44:13 masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 11:44:52 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:48:00 -!- kjfletch [n=kjfletch@94-170-16-78.cable.ubr13.newc.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:50:00 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:50:35 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:50:44 manuel__ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 11:50:48 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:59:21 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-215.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:01:08 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:03:21 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:56 -!- arquebus [n=sfd@189.221.2.241] has quit [] 12:04:39 -!- theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:10:08 theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 12:11:07 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:18 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-190-131.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:13:24 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:13:39 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:34 i need to hook lisp up to a dictionary database of sorts - is there something in place already to make this easy for me? ideally i'd like to use princeton's "wordnet" software but that seems somewhat difficult! 12:17:31 eeehm.. 12:17:37 I'm thniking parsing dictionary.com (: 12:20:17 (loop 12:20:17 for r from 1 to row 12:20:18 for c from 1 to r 12:20:31 does this produce a nested loop? 12:20:41 nope 12:20:45 oh 12:20:46 i am confused... 12:20:47 wait r 12:20:48 hmmm 12:20:54 is it possible to make one using loop? 12:20:56 hey I dunno really (: 12:21:03 <_death> it doesn't 12:21:05 I think you need to (loop ... (loop ... )) 12:21:06 it doesn't seem to 12:21:16 i assume it would well.. make c from 1 to 1 (: 12:21:32 yeah, that's what it does 12:22:28 yup.. 12:22:32 macroexpand is your friend ;) 12:22:39 You needs the (loop ... (loop )) 12:22:55 nha [n=prefect@enclair-003.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 12:22:55 (loop ... do (loop ...)) 12:23:15 *cough*DOING*cough* 12:24:22 isn't do and doing the same? 12:24:35 Well.. the do the same, just one is ugly ;) 12:24:36 i think the best thing i ever did for myself in terms of writing better code was put "loop" on my "not allowed functions" list (temporarily) 12:24:58 Don't LOOP. ITERATE? 12:25:16 even if the last time i said something about that i was ridiculed 12:25:16 <_death> in this case dotimes may be nice 12:25:30 <_death> though it's zero-based 12:25:49 I like LOOP. A lot of things are nicer with LOOP than not (: 12:26:50 -!- exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-131-036.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 12:26:55 sure schmx - but learning to write without "loop" made me realize where it was necessary and where it was an unjustified convenient replacement for tail-end recursion. 12:28:02 the only time i use loop really is if i don't want to write a predicate function AND a function that runs the predicate on everything in a list. 12:28:05 Unjustified? 12:28:12 <_death> "unjustified convenient replacement"?.. isn't being convenient somewhat of a justification? 12:28:13 I'm all for using what one thinks is best. 12:28:28 But a lot of the time my mind works better with a good LOOP than some recursion (: 12:28:30 well, schmx & _death - i may be off 12:28:39 Probably not. 12:28:43 i'm a bit biased because: 12:28:51 you're a scheme loving haskeller ;) 12:28:56 bbe [n=bbe@121.229.26.236] has joined #lisp 12:28:56 <_death> I find that usually iteration is better expressed as looping 12:29:04 ITERATE (: 12:29:05 leaving "loop" behind for a little bit really made me understand the idea of COND & CAR & CDR 12:29:14 & CONS 12:29:24 isismelting: That, I think, is a very good thing though (: 12:30:00 somehow i never understood the power of this idea: CONS [a modification to CAR] & the-function-itself-applied-to [CDR] 12:30:05 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:30:10 until i "cursed" loop 12:30:23 & had to donate $0.25 in order to write it 12:30:25 :) 12:30:39 (: 12:31:24 -!- nha [n=prefect@enclair-003.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:31:56 actually "loop" & do & etc were only a dime 12:32:07 things like "setq" and "setf" and "incf" were a quarter 12:32:10 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:32:10 <_death> isismelting: this is called MAPCAR 12:32:30 (and it was $0.50 for 5 minutes without having to pay for "cursed" functions) 12:32:31 isismelting: then maybe common lisp is not for you 12:32:34 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:59 since it doesn't enforce proper tail recursion 12:33:00 stassats - maybe it's not? how do you figure, & what then might for me be? 12:33:20 scheme? 12:33:20 _death - what does "this" refer to here? 12:33:47 stassats - i am not condemning anything 12:34:01 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 12:34:18 stassats - i simply had this intuitive idea that i could learn something intellectually by doing something weird 12:34:21 What on earth is wrong with setf? (: 12:34:33 schmx - not funny 12:34:39 (: 12:34:46 It's not a joke, so that's good. 12:34:57 <_death> isismelting: cons a _transformation_ to car (I take it that you didn't mean modification) and the result of a recursive call with the cdr 12:35:12 isismelting: I'm all for doing things just to learn. But I'm a bit with the stassats idea there that maybe scheme is a better bet (: 12:35:15 your mother is not a joke, so (setf your-mom '(really really fat)) then 12:35:29 *stassats* is actually sick of this kind of discussions 12:35:34 ok - i am pretty ignorant about scheme 12:35:37 oh 12:35:56 stassats - sorry if i've brought up some tired discussion 12:36:03 I like setf. but ok. 12:36:13 i'm very new to a lot of things 12:36:28 i want everyone to feel free to tell me to shut the f* up 12:36:46 isismelting: that's ok, i remind myself not to participate 12:36:51 (: 12:36:52 there pretty much can't be many people in here who know less than me about anything 12:37:12 is: That's beacuse you make stupid assertions stupidly on a frequent basis. 12:37:33 is: If you were less assertive about it, it would probably be less of an issue. 12:37:35 stassats - that's fine, though i'd be very receptive if you were to explain why a discussion in particular makes you sick 12:37:37 <_death> isismelting: (of course, it's MAPCAR given that the base condition is a test for nil) 12:37:46 Gibberish like 'cursed functions' is a good example. 12:38:04 isismelting: The whole using recursion and not using setf is a good idea if you want to do just the "functional" programming. And schemers (well and haskellers) tend to love all that. THe rest of us just LOOP and SETF all over the place ;) 12:38:16 schmx - i do too 12:38:29 but not doing so taught me about a lot of things i would not have learned otherwise 12:38:35 isismelting: That's great! 12:38:41 i only cursed the things for a few days 12:38:56 just to see if doing so would cause Zhivago to miscarry 12:39:07 Hmm.. 12:39:19 It seems I will go maybe write some code then. 12:39:30 read SICP, it has lots of such exercises 12:39:40 i'm just kidding - Zhivago is obviously 10x the programmer i will ever be 12:39:42 isismelting: I might start up a GAS curse jar here. I find myself cursing it constantly. 12:39:50 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:39:59 <_death> I find that sometimes, when I come up with an imperative solution, it can still be a good idea to try and come up with a functional alternative to compare to 12:40:54 i kind of hear you, _death -- one day i will be less stupid than i currently am & i will actualize the same thing 12:41:09 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 12:41:26 believe it or not i sincerely feel badly about pissing people like Zhivago or etc off with my idiocy 12:41:34 like very sincerely :-( 12:42:05 Then just be more tentative about it. 12:42:08 but at the same time, i promise that many people could learn a lot from "cursing" loop for a few days like i did - regardless of what better programmers say -- i KNOW you can learn things 12:42:46 There is nothing wrong with deciding not to use loop -- there is a problem when you start to talk about it being haunted with the spirits of dead moths. 12:42:50 try to "curse" everything except LAMBDA 12:43:15 Zhivago - you are absolutely right -- ... 12:43:31 -!- cheatcountry1 [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:43:34 i have been talking about the "cursed functions" like they should be the same for everyone 12:43:36 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 12:43:49 and like there's a good reason for there to be a uniform set of functions to "curse" 12:43:54 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:19 i don't mean that and i should clarify that i'm only speaking about what worked for my retarded autistic self 12:44:51 <_death> stassats: one of the old "alternative design" guidelines is to try and avoid anonymous functions, i.e. try to figure out if they can be generalized and named 12:45:00 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 12:45:44 _death: many languages live happily without anonymous functions 12:45:53 _death - you mean like made into so-called "utilities" rather than extremely-specific functions? 12:46:57 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:12 <_death> isismelting: yes.. on the other hand, know where to draw the line.. 12:48:18 [by the way friends - i have been destroying my eyes trying to read up on various things in PDF etc -- -- so i received a "kindle" today -- i'd like to recommend it to everyone, it is ridiculously awesome & has eliminated my reading-off-the-monitor headaches] 12:48:25 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 12:48:30 -!- mulander [n=user@80.51.122.72] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:48:41 isismelting: can it run lisp? 12:48:54 a kindle? 12:49:00 yep 12:49:02 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:49:13 yeah but not easily. 12:49:32 i'm new enough to LISP to where i'm still reading things like "gentle" etc 12:49:47 it's very nice to have that on an electronic paper screen 12:49:54 yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:51:02 the thing comes with 3G internet access - no account/fee necessary - so you can either use LISP via a web-based version or modify the firmware (there is a lot of info on doing this on the web) 12:51:06 stassats: it runs normal linux, so you can load clisp or ECL or some other Lisp. Clojure should work too 12:51:09 <_death> Kindle 2? 12:51:17 (kindle 2 yes) 12:51:29 argh, I mistaken Kindle with iLiad 12:51:40 though AFAIK kindle 2 is similar 12:51:44 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:51:45 yes p_l but you can use an http ssh client 12:51:52 and connect to a shell account 12:52:10 well, I doubt that Kindle's wireless would work where I am :P 12:52:19 where are you then? 12:53:30 UK and Amazon.co.uk responds with Sony PRS-505 when I ask for Kindle 2 :P 12:55:32 athos [n=philipp@p54B87BAF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:49 I'll be probably stuck with my old pocket pc pda for ebooks :D 12:57:02 p_l -- what's beautiful about the kindle in opposition to sony's equivilant 12:57:21 -- is that they mark a bunch of features as "experimental" 12:57:29 instead of "technically illegal" hehe 12:59:04 I still will probably spend any pda money on getting ipaq 214 or something similar rather than kindle xD 12:59:22 zaurus! 12:59:44 schmx: It's a pity that Sharp backed off from linux-based pda 12:59:56 their japan-only models were sweet 12:59:57 Oh they did? 13:00:01 schmx: yep 13:00:07 Yes.. I have one of the pretty terriers. 13:00:16 c3200 13:00:27 I killed the japanese linux on it though ;) 13:00:48 only issue is that well.. sbcl does not run on it :D 13:02:11 schmx: ecl and clisp for you :P 13:02:43 p_l: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=C3000 still some in stock (: 13:03:37 schmx: the thing is, some of the software I use seems not to be available on Linux (and by not available I mean "including any alternatives") 13:03:43 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A47E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:04:06 Ouch. 13:04:13 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:04:20 I can relate to that. Not for PDAs, but in general. 13:04:26 and I don't feel like writing an alternative at the moment :) 13:04:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 13:05:44 (though I'll happily swap my Mitac P340 for an iPaq 214 + serial port + logger) 13:06:32 Ahaha. Yes. Writing alternatives, as fun and a nice idea it might seem.. is just not always so nice (: 13:07:12 schmx: Especially when they include a lot of playing with GIS, GPS and maths 13:08:36 Yeah. 13:08:47 basically, flight computer for a glider, with moving map, special analysis etc. 13:09:02 My main "this would be nice to have on linux" is AutoCAD. It is not really something I can sit do and have done in a week (: 13:09:08 oh cool. 13:09:13 I remember, you're the glider guy. 13:09:46 So it's like an inflight computer displaying a map and wind speed and whatever ? 13:09:52 schmx: There are some nice alternatives to AutoCAD that work on linux... though not cheap :P 13:10:04 I have never seen any nice alternative to autocad. 13:10:26 I can live with it not being cheap, autocad isn't cheap either. And I'm not paying ;) 13:11:09 schmx: moving map, waypoints, all nav data + various additional stuff like suggesting where thermals might be based on sun's position and ground, various data regarding efficiency and planning, with certain hw also info about other gliders in competition... 13:11:16 schmx: CATIA? xD 13:11:17 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:11:17 (as in I am not the one paying, not as in pirateing) 13:12:29 CATIA is not quite the same. 13:12:40 well it's just me wanting to not have to see windows xp at work. 13:12:41 hehehe 13:12:47 there are some more, but I can't recall exactly 13:12:53 Indeed. 13:13:03 there's also brlcad, but that's a complete nutjob :P 13:13:21 I still have it on my hdd in order to play with it in future... 13:13:47 Also I'm not convinced my company would jump over the idea of retraining everyone. 13:13:48 ehehehe. 13:14:05 That sounds like cool shit for the glider though. I hadn't occured to me that there were such things. 13:14:12 But it makes perfect sense now that you mention it :) 13:15:14 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:15:16 How can you efficiently multiply two arrays elementwise and then add the elements? 13:15:16 hello 13:15:52 schmx: yeah. Basically required for competition flying nowadays, and a recent field landings db can save your life :) 13:16:13 sepisultrum: You mean like.. #(2 2 2) #(3 3 3) => #( 6 6 6 ) => 18 ? 13:16:19 yeah 13:16:33 p_l: I totall understand how one would want to maybe NOT use some home hacked shit for that. 13:16:45 sepisultrum: I am thinking loop on the arrays, multiply, and accumulate. 13:17:07 Why not just map and reduce? 13:17:26 Will that be as efficient though? 13:17:32 ok, so no functional stuff 13:17:38 Well probably it would I guess. 13:17:39 heh. 13:17:55 sepisultrum: Why not though? :) 13:18:18 (loop for a across vector-a for b across vector-b sum (* a b)) 13:18:50 or reduce? 13:19:23 (reduce #'+ (map 'vector #'* vector-a vector-b)) 13:19:27 I think maybe you need to profile 'em (: 13:19:54 aha, need to analyze that though. Thanks! 13:20:51 sepisultrum: the map/reduce version will be less efficient in cl as the map will cons up a new vector, whereas the loop adds on the fly. 13:21:27 unless you manage to find SSC 13:21:39 "find SSC"? 13:22:12 what's ssc? 13:22:43 sufficiently smart compiler 13:22:44 a mythical beast. 13:22:54 oh 13:22:55 yeah right. 13:22:56 :D 13:23:10 you might also want to look at clojure, which has lazy sequences. 13:24:10 How does a lazy vector look like? 13:24:50 tcr: it lazes off somewhere and doesn't get itself into form till you shout ;-) 13:25:05 tcr: there is no "lazy vector", but with a lazy language, the map can produce the next result only when the consumer requests it. 13:25:08 Implemented as a list of vectors ("array list") which is lazy? 13:33:11 -!- sweemeng [n=sweemeng@118.101.45.192] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:34:47 no, implemented as a lazy sequence. :) 13:35:28 tcr: http://clojure.org/sequences 13:36:29 -!- yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed 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#lisp 14:08:01 -!- jao [n=jao@221.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 14:13:51 btw, after looking into SMOKE I've got the impression that getting Qt4 bindings to "work" (fsv of "work") wouldn't be hard... now, if it has a way to enumarate everything, it might as well end in a general binding generator for SMOKE->CL... 14:14:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:43 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:03 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:15:28 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 14:16:16 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:58 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:23 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 14:21:11 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit 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HULK DISCONNECT!"] 15:44:43 -!- KalifG [n=user@32.176.123.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:44:51 josemanuel [n=josemanu@55.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:44:53 KalifG [n=user@32.176.123.250] has joined #lisp 15:45:04 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-142-125.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:13 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:45:19 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-142-125.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:45:40 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:15 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:46:39 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:01 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:53:06 hmm... what is the best, portable way to pass callbacks in CFFI, assuming that user of the library is supposed to write the callbacks? 15:55:14 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:55:34 _mathrick [n=mathrick@130.226.70.177] has joined #lisp 15:56:00 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Success] 15:56:26 amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:56:27 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:56:29 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:37 oops 15:56:39 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 15:57:09 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:09 -!- dejai [n=dejai@230.15.233.220.exetel.com.au] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:09 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:09 -!- dto 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joined #lisp 15:59:54 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@55.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 16:00:18 josemanuel [n=josemanu@55.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:01:28 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:03:13 athos_ [n=philipp@p54B85450.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:22 danlei [n=user@pD9E2FB69.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:33 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@55.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 16:08:11 -!- bbe [n=bbe@121.229.26.236] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:08:39 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2FB69.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:12:12 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:18 danlei [n=user@pD9E2FB69.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:46 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-130-250.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 16:18:47 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:20:24 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:20:24 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:21:32 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B87BAF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:02 -!- amaron_ is now known as amaron 16:24:14 -!- authentic is now known as imajes 16:24:18 -!- imajes is now known as authentic 16:24:38 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 16:26:32 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@p54B85450.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:31:15 I have a rational that should represents pi, how can I get a decimal representation of that rational? Formatting with ~,100F does not yield more precision than formating with ~A. 16:32:46 (float 22/7 1d0) => 3.142857142857143d0 16:33:30 leamsi [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 16:38:05 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:03 -!- pmhaddad [n=pmhaddad@24-247-41-171.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:39:56 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:41:24 sepisultrum: I don't know of any built-in way to print beyond the native lisp's floating point representation limit 16:42:11 clisp can do that 16:42:21 -!- theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:42:34 but i doubt you need such precision 16:43:00 stassats: the problem is to find the first 10-digit prime in the stream of PI 16:43:03 :) 16:43:21 theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 16:43:33 well... your way is very naive 16:44:51 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:44:56 more naive would be to download somewhere pi up to several million digits and search within it 16:45:08 sepisultrum pasted "pi" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76618 16:45:21 stassats: not that naive 16:46:20 what do you expect from floating point? to be arbitrary? 16:46:24 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:46:54 no, I have a very large ratinnal as result 16:47:29 well, a rational with large numerator and denominator 16:49:21 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:49:28 stathis_ [n=stathis@ppp57-58.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:53:29 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:53:39 sepisultrum: so, anyway, you have to implement your own base10izer. (Sorry that stassats seems to be answering a different question). He's right in that CLISP's long-float has user-settable precision, so you could cheat that way 16:54:22 -!- leamsi [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:54:27 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89-181-98-178.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 16:55:21 Krystof: that was my question. So format can only format either float or rational. 16:55:45 -!- [mark] [n=mark@unaffiliated/mark/x-957811] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:56:30 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 16:56:51 -!- Grey_Fox [n=chatzill@ppp118-208-142-163.lns10.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008121622]"] 16:57:01 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 16:57:58 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:37 crod [n=cmell@x250021.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 16:59:04 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:01:04 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:23 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:02:22 -!- theoffset [n=ismael@201-167-98-234-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:02:50 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 17:02:58 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 17:04:58 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-144-210.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 17:04:59 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:06 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-46-195.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 17:05:22 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-204-183.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:33 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:41 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250009.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:31 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-204-178.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:46 -!- KalifG [n=user@32.176.123.250] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:15:13 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-150-151.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:15:36 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-150-151.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:17:20 dwave [n=ask@062016209059.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 17:18:08 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:14 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-150-151.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Client Quit] 17:18:57 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:21:22 I guess I was looking for this http://www.haible.de/bruno/MichaelStoll/reals.html 17:21:59 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-150-151.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:22:34 kenjin_ [n=kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 17:23:59 what's the common-lisp built-in function that's equivalent to for-each in scheme? 17:24:07 clhs mapc 17:24:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 17:24:08 clhs mapc 17:24:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 17:24:33 wow very fast...thank you all 17:25:45 kenjin_: if it's a block of code you want to execute and not a form, it's usual in CL to use dolist or loop 17:26:03 er, and not a function I mean 17:26:29 (dolist (element list) ...) is somewhat easier to read than (mapc (lambda (element) ...) list) 17:26:57 what if I have more than two lists to run through? 17:27:04 kenjin_: how cool is that? ;) 17:27:18 this thing beeped for me lol 17:27:22 :) 17:27:34 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:48 (loop for element1 in list1 for element2 in list2 do ...) works 17:28:09 whether that's more readable than the mapc equivalent is debatable 17:28:45 Thank you dlowe, I'll look for it in cltl. 17:28:54 clhs loop 17:28:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 17:29:06 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-150-151.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:29:27 keep in mind that cltl deviates slightly from the ansi standard 17:29:58 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-150-151.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:30:21 Yes I know that. 17:31:03 minion: memo for attila_lendvai I wish that fixtures in stefil could bind variables in test bodies instead of only modifying the global environment 17:31:04 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 17:31:18 minion: memo for attila_lendvai: I wish that fixtures in stefil could bind variables in test bodies instead of only modifying the global environment 17:31:19 Remembered. I'll tell attila_lendvai when he/she/it next speaks. 17:34:42 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 17:35:58 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:42 sepisultrum: you could use something simpler, like (defun foo (n d length) (loop repeat length for i = n then (* i 10) do (prin1 (rem (truncate i d)) 10))) 17:38:35 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:39:22 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 17:40:49 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:41:13 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:44:21 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-46-195.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:45:15 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 17:45:39 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:47:13 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:18 cmo-0 [n=user@86.99.141.145] has joined #lisp 17:50:12 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-144-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:53:30 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 17:58:19 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:20 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:58:43 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:50 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:59:04 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:15 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:02:34 *p_l* decides to go down to library and get himself an Emacs book 18:04:29 damn, there's only first edition of Learning Emacs left 18:04:36 stassats: interesting, thanks! there was a small error with the parens though. 18:05:13 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #lisp 18:06:09 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:07:02 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:07:07 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:08:59 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-150-151.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:12:15 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.228.219] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:00 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F523.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:33 jlf [n=user@adsl-76-253-93-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:25 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-156-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:55 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:12 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279442383.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 18:28:42 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:29:28 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:30:46 -!- kenjin_ [n=kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:31:11 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-144-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:43 matley [n=matley@83.225.39.186] has joined #lisp 18:36:25 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@86.99.141.145] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:37:18 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:41 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:38:43 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 18:39:11 macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:41:12 can anyone recommend a book/article/faq that describes good file layout, library and package management practices for common lisp apps? 18:41:16 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DFB6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:18 "common sense" 18:42:35 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:10 cheers 18:45:01 ok let me try a more specific question: do people tend to set up 'asdf systems' for all the subsystems of their apps, or just (load "foo.lisp"), or (require 'foo) for the various subcomponents of their app? 18:45:05 the way to obtain that "common sense" is see how others are doing this 18:45:30 asdf 18:46:28 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:46:28 Is there a way to get the memory usage of an object in cl? I couldn't find anything about this. 18:46:47 no portable 18:47:14 ah, ok 18:47:17 You'll have to define what you mean by `the memory usage of an object', which is not a clear concept. 18:47:52 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:47:54 yeah. I'm aware of that. But for some more basic classes it should be clear though. 18:48:08 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:43 Sure. For the really basic types you can figure it on dead reckoning just knowing the type and your implementation. 18:49:05 No portable way, though. 18:49:29 stigaway [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:47 ok. thanks anyway! 18:50:54 For instance, if the object is a list that contains a symbol, do you count (1) the size of the cons cell, (2) the size of the list's structure, (3) the size of the list's structure and the size of the symbol's plist, variable definition, function definition, &c.? 18:52:00 lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:53:02 I wanted to know if it was feasible to create a huge vector for a sieve of erastostenes 18:53:21 create bit-vector 18:53:31 stassats: ah, true 18:54:43 of course :) 18:55:21 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:00 and then you can extract primes into vector of integers 18:56:39 stassats: do you think that's feasible for 10 digit numbers? 18:56:46 ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-16-20.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 18:56:53 stassats: using erastostenes in general 18:57:13 let me try 18:57:26 -!- iStig [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:48 I'm trying to solve this http://abstrusegoose.com/secret-archives/a7427466391 ;) 18:58:12 I could be cheating somehow but I'd like to imlement it all in cl as a training 18:58:12 well, if only 10-digit numbers, then i think it should be feasible 18:58:58 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-204-183.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:59:11 then after the sieve, I'd store the sorted primes in a vector and search using binary search 18:59:24 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:59:40 if you want to check for primality, keep them in bit-vector 18:59:44 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E44A0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:39 -!- stigaway [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:00:43 but doesn't that slow down the search? 19:01:22 ok, i did some calculations, that's not very feasible 19:01:28 ok :) 19:01:37 sepisultrum: no, bit-vectors have random access 19:01:53 stassats: yeah, I was not thinking :) 19:02:11 stassats: you can just access the number you want to test 19:04:32 you can combine sieve with trial divisions 19:05:53 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:06:06 hmm 8GiB of data when using a bit-vector 19:06:09 that's a lot 19:06:40 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 19:07:22 I'm not even sure if you don't have to start from beginning when doing the sieve 19:08:40 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:08:56 <_3b> well, you don't need to waste any space on even numbers, that saves you a few GiB :) 19:09:05 _3b: yeah 19:09:47 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:10:07 hm, is UCW multithreaded? 19:10:16 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-156-134.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 19:10:22 <_3b> probably better to just not use an exact test though, like that hash thing that doesn't actually store the values whose name i can never remember 19:10:35 you need to make two sieves, on of size of the square root of 9999999999, and the second of 1000000000-9999999999 19:11:24 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-156-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:11:49 <_3b> oh yeah, bloom filter is it i think 19:15:12 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:16:05 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47560.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:16:46 rswarbrick [n=user@cpc1-cove3-0-0-cust907.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:26 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:17:37 Hi there, does anyone know how to get sb-ext:run-program to run a program with a specified working directory? I've tried putting "PWD=foo" in the :environment variable, but this doesn't seem to work. 19:18:11 You might need to sb-posix:chdir instead. 19:18:28 Or there might be some other trick to it. 19:18:41 Hmm, but this is part of an asdf component and it seems silly to chdir my sbcl process there and back if not necessary... 19:19:07 rswarbrick - the current working directory is not set by PWD ; that's a magical shell variable, and you can see this by running 'env'. 19:20:31 Indeed, but the manpage for environ seemed to imply that it would do what I wanted. Seemingly wishful thinking! :) 19:20:47 Hokay, I'll wrap the stuff in chdirs. Thanks for the help. 19:21:28 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-99.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:21:48 stassats: I wonder if using a simple modulo test won't do the trick 19:22:40 on the other hand, there are 9000000000 numbers to test 19:23:22 I first thought how one could interpret $PWD manipulating the cwd state; but then it occured to me that that's exactly how it's works in Common Lisp (*default-pathname-defaults*) 19:23:26 hello 19:25:21 sepisultrum: Aren't there some rules for finding prime candidates based on the next lower prime numbers, or am I misremembering? 19:26:30 maybe run-program should have an chdir key that does that after fork ? 19:27:02 That seems reasonable, though messing with run-program is a bit scary, really. 19:27:57 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:28:48 -!- jlf [n=user@adsl-76-253-93-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:29:20 nyef: if there was, that would be cool 19:30:51 <_3b> if you don't have space for the full bit-vector, you could just store as much as you have space for and check the rest as needed 19:31:32 <_3b> (storing the upper part of the range, to allow for faster checks of the on-demand tests) 19:31:54 or buy more memory 19:32:03 <_3b> or that 19:32:14 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:30 <_3b> you probably want a 64bit system anyway, to avoid bignums :) 19:32:40 valvola [n=fabiovio@host179-28-dynamic.13-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:32:56 -!- valvola [n=fabiovio@host179-28-dynamic.13-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:33 vectors can't be bigger than most-positive-fixnum on sbcl, can they? 19:33:50 <_3b> can't in any CL if i remember right 19:33:56 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit [] 19:34:56 clhs array-total-size-limit 19:34:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ar_tot.htm 19:35:06 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-124.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 19:35:15 that's the lower bound 19:35:35 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:36:00 What, you can't have vectors with fewer elements than that? 19:36:47 i meant, 1024 is the lower bound of that constant 19:36:59 Yeah, I know. :-P 19:37:19 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:37:35 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-124.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 19:38:35 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 19:39:58 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-90.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 19:40:48 hi, would you expect SBCL 32 bit to have problems with a hashtable keyed by equalp on strings, with around 27,000 entries? 19:41:18 do you have any? 19:42:07 I think I have problems, just thinking maybe I am doing something wrong 19:42:49 I generated a list like: (list\n "key1" val1\n "key2" val2\n etc. using emacs, and I think I have problems even evaluating it with slime-compile-region 19:43:06 before even I got to transforming the list to a hash 19:43:30 try to C-c C-k 19:43:42 i.e. compile the whole file 19:44:27 pasted into repl worked 19:45:20 ok, hash table OK. 19:45:40 Slime-compile-region was a problem, not SBCL. 19:46:13 does it work on smaller lists? 19:46:17 yes 19:46:41 but on a large one, only REPL worked 19:47:31 ... Are you overflowing a 64k or 128k limit somwhere? 19:47:39 Not necessarily with SBCL, but with emacs? 19:48:03 Or with SLIME, maybe? 19:49:09 *stassats* created ~600k lisp file and it didn't work 19:49:28 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:03 what didn't work? 19:50:09 eval-region works on the other hand 19:50:16 tcr: slime-compile-region 19:50:47 Ugh. I think I'm going to give up on understanding {MSK,EXT,INS}[WLQ]H for now. 19:52:41 nyef: how is it going? :) 19:53:17 I've been doing some refactoring and filling in of opcodes that haven't been hit yet. 19:53:51 so, guys, is it expected? not to be able to work with too large lisp files? 19:53:53 Partly an assessment of how complete things are at the CPU level, too. 19:54:30 And there's a regular pattern to the low versions of the mask, extract and insert instructions, but I haven't figured out how the high versions have to work. 19:55:01 nyef: is it sbcl on arm ? 19:55:09 lhz: No, it's an Alpha emulator. 19:55:44 nyef: ah, for running the sbcl executable ? 19:55:52 lhz: In Lisp :) 19:55:55 puchacz: i wouldn't expect that, but wouldn't also complain, because manually editing 600k file is not very reasonable 19:56:18 nah, it is not for manual editing, but storing large data structures 19:56:25 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.224.70] has quit ["I told you, it's nothing wrong with my computer. It's not bad in any way. And what do you mean by hardware?"] 19:56:32 and lisp syntax is very convenient for data structures anyway 19:56:39 I'm at the point where I need to completely re-do the memory access handlers in order to accommodate ALCOR-2 and PCI. 19:56:39 so do (load "foo") 19:56:48 and don't open it in emacs 19:56:56 And probably fix up the Mbox a bit, too. 19:57:08 stassats: maybe that's the solution, you are right 19:57:12 nyef: ok that sounds like an larger scope :) 19:57:27 vostibackle [n=vosti@cpe-24-28-81-28.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:01 nyef: I on the other hand just got "Computer Architecture: A Quantitative Approach" for my architecture design project :-) 19:58:24 p_l: Cool. That's a book that I might like to read at some point. 19:59:10 how do you interactively develop an asd system, e.g. with slime? 19:59:37 _3b: Yeah, I guess I'll have to paging. Unfortunately I only have a 32bit OS installed. I guess I can't use 64bit features of my cpu without switching to a 64bit system 19:59:41 *p_l* wonders if the stuff in foreword to that book (by Bill Joy, no less!) about learning PDP-8 assembly by looking at paper tape, is true 19:59:55 just C-c C-k the file you're working on and everything works? 19:59:58 vostibackle: Edit the DEFSYSTEM form, and reload it via C-c C-c? 20:00:09 sepisultrum: you can use 64-bit kernel 20:00:46 and some basic 64-bit libraries 20:00:47 stassats: I never wanted to install a 64bit system because of problems with proprietary drivers and flash 20:01:04 proprietary drivers? 20:01:12 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:01:15 64-bit kernel and 32-bit userland 20:01:22 sepisultrum: there's 64bit flash for linux (and you can run 32bit plugins with nspluginwrapper), most drivers are long-time ported 20:01:26 nyef: the ati driver 20:01:27 *nyef* runs a 32-bit firefox on his 64-bit linux just to have flash support. 20:01:33 and 64-bit flash works fine for me 20:02:04 nyef: Why not use nspluginwrapper? You even gain additional security against infinite loops in flash :D 20:02:09 well, my system is at least 2 years old now. I never fealt the need to upgrade it :) 20:02:23 p_l: Because I didn't know about it? 20:02:26 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:47 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:53 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:12 I've got a little list of things I'd like to try and fix that I can't risk messing with for the next few months. :-/ 20:06:49 One thing I'm looking forward to is nouveau drivers, especially now that video mode setting is in the kernel tree. But at the same time, it's not going to be ready for real use any time soon. 20:09:39 Anyway, the core part of what I have so far (modulo file loaders and disassembler) is at http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/lameulator.lisp 20:10:37 *p_l* had a laugh seeing a comparison between first-gen IA-64, alpha 21264 and pentium 4... and seeing a note that with properly optimizing compiler, 21264 would be the fastest chip of them.. despite being the oldest 20:10:51 Heh. 20:11:21 Too bad there's no modern alphabook, huh? 20:11:37 yeah, the only one had an embedded, slower version of EV4 20:11:54 800x600 screen, too. :-/ 20:12:09 though you can still buy SPARC books 20:12:14 *notebooks 20:12:24 the Alphabook would probably be like the PPC970 book attempts 20:12:26 too hot 20:13:17 Adamant: Alphabook had 21068 @150MHz IIRC. This chip did not heat 20:13:34 p_l: see the 4.1.x results http://gmplib.org/gmpbench.html 20:13:42 p_l: I thought later Alphas were pretty hot 20:14:05 Adamant, PPC970 != G5? 20:14:13 PPC970 == G5 20:14:15 Adamant, oh, maybe there wasn't a G5 notebook? 20:14:21 tic: there wasn't 20:14:26 because of the heat issues 20:14:29 Alright, my bad. 20:14:46 that was one reason for the switch to Intel 20:15:34 say what you will about them, they make some pretty nice laptop-grade chips. 20:15:41 there would have been worse heat issues than my macbookpro if they hadn't switched to intel? 20:15:48 oh yeah 20:15:49 cus it's pretty bad now :( 20:15:50 So, in the perverse ideas department: Cross coreboot with an alpha emulator to run an SRM console from bootup on a modern x86oid cpu. 20:15:52 Adamant: and nice room heaters :P 20:15:52 significantly 20:16:34 nyef: you're a virt fiend 20:16:47 -!- ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-16-20.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:16:55 nyef: Or just port SRM-like firmware to amd64 :> 20:17:07 *p_l* was quite surprised seein 'ps' command in ES40 SRM 20:17:25 (and four processes running, too!) 20:18:34 p_l: No, no... The idea is to present an alpha-architecture-compatible machine, not an x86-64. 20:18:37 -!- rswarbrick [n=user@cpc1-cove3-0-0-cust907.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 20:18:37 mejja: If I see well, 4.2.x results show a difference of 4 points between EV67 @ 1GHz and Pentium 4 @ 3.2GHz? 20:18:50 nyef: We can use SMM to abstract the rest ;-) 20:19:48 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:17 p_l: they use different compilers 20:20:26 as for getting a still-produced arch... a MIPS64 notebook would be interesting 20:20:41 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:21:03 stassats: I wonder why they don't have benchmark results with GCC 4.x on Pentium 4 20:21:15 (or did GCC screw up code gen. again?) 20:21:21 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-204-178.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:21:24 I kindof wish it were "safe" to do development on something like coreboot on random systems. :-/ 20:22:05 *p_l* wants a notebook with MIPS64 from SiCortex and hi-perf. buses 20:23:03 to run what? 20:23:11 stassats: As my main machine 20:23:48 also, a cpu that takes 0.9W at full power beats my current one when it comes to battery time :D 20:24:02 man. i'd really love to have a marvel class machine. 20:24:13 Fade: EV7? 20:24:18 yeah 20:24:26 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:24:27 *stassats* wants an arm based desktop computer 20:24:35 Fade: Get yourself a multi-socket Opteron, they are based on them ;-P 20:24:50 because p4@3Ghz running 24/7 is no good 20:25:01 when the first wildfire frames were getting pushed out to legacy contracts by HP, they went with a non-disclosure covering benchmarks. they wiped the floor with the HP itanium based competition. 20:25:14 p_l: oh, i'm aware of the family tree. ;) 20:25:29 stassats: SiCortex PDS takes 300W from socket, has 72 cpus and 48G/96G of memory :P 20:25:55 Fade: AFAIK Itanium 2 is not as bad... but compilers still suck :P 20:26:06 p_l: oh well, i could calculate Pi on that 20:26:14 the compilers are still awful 20:26:22 it's sort of cursed in the same way the r10+ mips64 cores are that way from what I understand. 20:26:28 they pushed too much work onto the compiler writers 20:26:32 s/r10/r10k 20:27:12 even their own intel's compiler? 20:27:29 stassats: it's not that great either from what I've heard 20:27:37 intel washed their hands of it, afaict. 20:27:52 the architecture prefers a sentient compiler. Given current state of AI, we are still far away from target 20:27:52 it's too bad 20:27:54 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-139.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:04 the whole Itanium thing will probably kill VMS 20:28:13 Though Itanium 3 might finally start getting up to speed 20:28:29 anyhow, DEC had the alpha roadmap really fleshed out. they were moving toward full compute surfaces in a kind of thinking machine style. 20:28:30 yeah, I doubt it 20:28:40 the death of that platform is a shame. 20:28:41 Fade: cool! 20:28:43 it is 20:28:57 at least it sort of lives on in Opteron 20:29:09 I'm pretty excited for the ARM systems given the direction that the latest architecture has taken, as well as the major push towards computational power wrt floating point. 20:29:13 *Fade* wonders if nyef is gonna emulate the rbox 20:29:26 ARM is cool 20:29:28 jao [n=jao@221.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:32 they've got some Alpha designers (those that aren't at AMD) working on Itanium 3. Though if it's real that Itanium 2 is 99% HP design... XD 20:29:35 i think cell is the most interesting core currently available. 20:29:47 Fade: probably 20:30:01 but I'm not sure it's compute units are better than have a GPU do same 20:30:02 Adamant: is that a pun? 20:30:22 stassats: where? 20:30:25 The latest ARMs have eschewed the strict adherence to the RISC ways and now have no-penalty 16-bit and 32-bit code within the same processor mode. :) 20:30:30 ah 20:30:30 ok 20:30:31 Adamant: "arm is cool" 20:30:34 not intentional 20:30:37 but it works! 20:30:45 haha 20:30:46 I wonder how Cell will stack against next-gen AMD64 cpus, which are supposed to contain a FireStream core 20:30:57 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-124.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 20:31:13 p_l: are you referring to Cell or Cell2? 20:31:14 doesn't look like the project to regenerate an alpha core at opencores.org got any traction. :( 20:31:20 Cell blows, imo. 20:31:22 not RISC, not CISC, RCISC is the way 20:31:25 jso: I haven't seen Cell 2 20:31:26 Cell2 is pretty dope. 20:31:32 Fade: "rbox"? 20:31:44 Not seeing an "Rbox" in the 21164 docs. 20:32:00 jso: Most IBM cpus I had seen at work were POWER5/POWER6. No Cells :D 20:32:01 it's a 21364 thing 20:32:02 It's just an incremental update. SPEs could only handle 32-bit floats. That has been changed. 20:32:08 Ah. 20:32:18 Let's go with "not any time soon", then. 20:32:22 :) 20:32:39 *p_l* still would like to get an IA-64 machine, if only for VMS 20:32:52 p_l: VMS is the only reason at this point 20:33:08 I wish they would port VMS to x86-64 20:33:20 Adamant: I'm not sure if such a port would be workable 20:33:22 Adamant: Isn't that what FreeVMS is for? 20:33:27 Seriously? I've never experienced VMS, but I know people who own and use Vaxen just for that OS. Is there somewhere I can learn more (not just reading)? 20:33:42 thx, nyef. Just answered that before I posed it. :/ 20:33:43 nyef: FreeVMS isn't exactly real VMS 20:33:48 jso: http://openvmshobbyist.org 20:34:01 Thanks! 20:34:09 Vachement Mauvais Systeme 20:34:11 Adamant: I know. And it's kindof broken, too, but isn't that the -idea- behind it? 20:34:18 nyef: true 20:34:30 I'd rather have the real thing in x86-64 though 20:34:31 minion: what does VMS mean? 20:34:32 Versionize Mammondom Small 20:34:46 jso: You can get licenses there, and as for media and simh config, I can try to set somethin on net (making media available on net is not oficially "supported") 20:35:06 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:33 If you get Personal Alpha or a real one, I've got this bootleg of VMS8.3 that so-so works on es40.org emulator 20:35:46 k-rad! I'll learn more before I go down that path. We'll see how much time I get this spring break (starts Monday, for me). 20:36:29 jso: my evil plan includes one time compiling ECL on VMS using only VMS apis :> 20:37:12 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-13.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 20:37:16 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:37:43 I'm not seeing any mention of any variants of Lisp on that site. Are there no (open) compilers available on OpenVMS. 20:37:56 clisp? 20:38:41 there was VaxLisp once, too 20:38:41 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-87-237.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 20:38:52 Clearly, someone needs to port SBCL! 20:38:53 *nyef* ducks. 20:38:57 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.2] has joined #lisp 20:39:14 nyef: I think I may have just LOLed. 20:39:26 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89-181-98-178.net.novis.pt] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 20:39:32 Does the Win32 port count as partway there? 20:39:44 nyef: not really 20:39:45 -!- dwave [n=ask@062016209059.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 20:40:25 Didn't think so, even with the whole "VMS->WNT" thing. 20:41:37 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F392.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:31 NT did took a lot from VMS in its basic architecture, but afaik it's easier to port stuff between NT and Unix :) 20:42:47 hello attila_lendvai 20:43:57 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:44:27 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 20:44:41 *p_l* just recognized that he can simply load Personal Alpha on his Win7 vm, instead of playing with wine 20:44:42 hello kami- 20:44:42 attila_lendvai, memo from dlowe: I wish that fixtures in stefil could bind variables in test bodies instead of only modifying the global environment 20:44:45 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-6.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:44:49 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:02 NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-186.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:45:18 attila_lendvai: it was a trick. I knew dlowe has left a message for you :) 20:46:09 heh, and people tell you that you shouldn't believe in conspiracy theories... :) 20:46:10 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-6.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:10 :) no honestly, I wanted to bug you again: recreate-model-data constantly gives me an instance-not-found-error 20:47:27 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 20:47:28 for cluster-node-session. 20:48:09 and that prevents the creation of the developers and I cannot login 20:48:14 attila_lendvai: I've actually been poking at this bindable fixture idea for an hour or so. I'm not sure there's a useful generalization for what I want 20:48:59 i don't know how to do that, though. fixtures are really functions that are called once in a while when needed. with-fixture is just a light macro to optionally invoke them 20:49:28 attila_lendvai: right, so my idea was to have the setup fixture return a value, which is then bound 20:49:38 attila_lendvai: like so: (bind-fixtures ((obj obj-fixture)) ...) 20:49:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-139.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:49:50 -!- stathis_ [n=stathis@ppp57-58.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:12 stathis_ [n=stathis@ppp12-217.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:50:21 attila_lendvai: the problem is that in my particular instance, I'd like to pass the binding symbol to the fixture, and the return value of the setup to the teardown function 20:50:39 kami-: if you are not fully pulled then i don't know. if you are, then make sure the cluster node is shut down when you start recreate-model-data 20:50:48 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:51:00 attila_lendvai: so the setup would look like (obj-fixture :setup 'obj) and the teardown would be called like (obj-fixture :teardown obj) 20:52:02 so I was trying to come up with a "nice" way to define that. (defixture obj-fixture (:setup (name) (make-obj-fixture name)) (:teardown (obj) (destroy-obj-fixture obj))) doesn't really appeal to me 20:52:14 and breaks compatibility 20:53:01 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-215.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:53:09 i don't care about compatibility if it fits the idea of the rest of the code better 20:53:15 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-112.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 20:54:01 It's also not terribly obvious that the setup is called with the bind symbol and the teardown is called with the bind value 20:54:07 but maybe you need a different thing than a fixture, and implement something more flexible using the lower lever features the fixtures are using (basically a hashtable that marks which fixtures have been run) 20:54:16 -!- phytovor is now known as doxtor 20:54:40 *dlowe* basically just wants a lexical fixture. :P 20:54:43 simard [n=simard@modemcable234.226-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:55:26 maybe there's not a clean way to do it 20:55:31 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A47E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:55:31 after a really short pondering, if i were you, i'd just do some facelifting for the fixture infrastructure and export it, or just use the internal symbols 20:55:46 I am writing code for some software that uses SKILL as a programming language. It is a lot like Lisp, but there are a few features missing.. I would need a macro that would define let*, any hint ? 20:56:06 clhs let* 20:56:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 20:56:34 hm, thought there was a definition there. 20:56:43 doesn't seem to :) 20:57:31 (defmacro let* (bindings &body body) `(let (,(first bindings)) (let* ,(rest bindings) ,@body))) 20:58:26 dlowe: feel free to hack around and send patches, backward incompatibility is not an issue if there's any reason for it. but if you feel that you would do something that may not go through the commit committee than drop a mail to the list first... 20:58:58 dlowe: where does this stop? 20:58:58 attila_lendvai: sure. I just thought you might have some insights, since you've thought about it more :) 20:59:13 stassats: good point :D 20:59:34 -!- H4ns3 [n=hans@p57A0F392.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:58 (defmacro let* (bindings &body body) `(let (,(first bindings)) ,@(if (rest bindings) `(let* ,(rest bindings) ,@body) body)))) 21:02:32 -!- NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-186.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:02:51 elurin [n=user@85.99.89.128] has joined #lisp 21:03:01 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-186.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:04:34 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:04:45 dlowe: even if i did, it was 1+ year ago... that's a century in a programmer's mind... :) 21:04:58 attila_lendvai: shutdown-cluster-node gives me the same error. Shall I pullall or pullourstuff? 21:05:29 kami-: there's pullstuff that pulls most interesting projecs 21:06:08 attila_lendvai: how stable is the current state? 21:06:38 kami-: there are some singleton globals that need to be cleared, and if the cluster was running while all the database was purged, then several persistent instances are in the lisp memory that can't be found in the db anymore, leading to the error 21:06:41 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-130-250.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:06:54 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:06:59 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:07:18 kami-: i'm just updating the live system to the (almost) head of everything... how stable it is? dunno, but we did our best... :) 21:07:18 attila_lendvai: IIUC, recreate clears the singletons. 21:07:32 :) 21:08:13 attila_lendvai: (clearf dmm::*scheduler-technical-subject-singleton* ... 21:09:42 dlowe, I had to change it a bit to: (defmacro lets (bindings @body body) `(let (,(car bindings)) ,@(if (cdr bindings) `(lets ,(cdr bindings) ,@body) body))) 21:09:58 dlowe, however, the recursive (lets ... doesnt get evaluated as a macro 21:10:20 when I try an expandMacro a test case 21:10:34 is this related to the form given above or is it my interpreter ? 21:10:37 <_3b> sepisultrum: did you figure out yet that you were overthinking that primes problem? 21:12:49 simard: that's really weird. I would expect macros to behave the same 21:13:33 -!- archypetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:13:34 dlowe, yeah but it's not actually a lisp dialect... it's more like a lisp inspired language 21:13:53 however it seemed to me as it was pretty complete 21:14:31 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 21:15:14 simard: I could ask the Lisp people at cadence on the next munich lisp meeting next week... if I remember 21:15:46 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:16:14 tcr, well that would be very cool :) 21:16:42 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-186.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:18:03 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-186.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:18:03 josemanuel [n=josemanu@14.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:19:21 dlowe, oh.. that lets macro is expecting 3 arguments instead of 2 21:19:27 there might be something there 21:20:46 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has left #lisp 21:21:57 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-203-105.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:01 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:25:33 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-6.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:28:04 ravster [n=6rd3@U108.N164.QueensU.CA] has joined #lisp 21:28:09 Hello all 21:28:39 amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:28:57 Could someone guide me to a page where its explained when one should use a macro instead of a function? I think I get the differences between the two, but am not sure when each one is appropriate and the other isn't. 21:29:46 <_3b> use a macro when you need/want different evaluation rules from the default 21:30:28 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:03 ravster: Approximately, a macro is a function that operates at compile-time, and takes source-code and return source-code. So if you want to transform source-code at compile-time, use a macro. 21:31:25 -!- schmx [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 21:31:37 _3b, examples? Sorry, I'm very new to lisp, and am just around to CH11 in Practical Common Lisp 21:31:46 (to be exact, a macro is not necessarily expanded at compile-time, but it's what they're used for.) 21:32:05 <_3b> ravster: for example if you wanted to define IF 21:32:10 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:32:27 why wouldn't I use a function for that? 21:32:31 <_3b> if you made it a defun, the arguments would be evaluated before it could test the condition 21:32:39 ravster: you can try and see 21:32:47 couldn't I just quote the arguments then? 21:33:04 no 21:33:15 <_3b> lisp is turing complete, so you could do it lots of ways, most of them would be ugly though :) 21:33:30 -!- stathis_ [n=stathis@ppp12-217.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:33:34 ...and using the macro is the neatest? 21:33:38 <_3b> if you quoted the arguments, you would have to evaluate them at runtime instead of compiling them at sompile time 21:33:44 <_3b> *compile time 21:34:05 <_3b> alternately you could define anonymous functions for the branches, and call the correct one, but that would be ugly 21:34:17 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:34:19 ravster: If you quote them, you cannot evaluate them in the surrounding lexical environment 21:34:21 <_3b> (in CL at least,that is a valid strategy in some languages) 21:34:47 <_3b> ah, right... the environemnet would be a bigger problem than compilation, forgot about that :) 21:36:52 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-124.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:37:15 diog3n3s [n=diog3n3s@97-118-148-234.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:13 Thank you, _3b , tcr , stassats . I still don't get the lexical environment point, but will look into it. 21:38:20 simard: try this one: (defmacro lets (bindings @body body) `(let (,(car bindings)) ,@(if (cdr bindings) `((lets ,(cdr bindings) ,@body)) body))) 21:39:03 ravster: You'll understand soon, I'm sure. :) 21:39:32 tcr: Thanks :) 21:40:25 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:38 -!- amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:04 dlowe, looks like you found it :) 21:41:07 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-203-105.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:41:08 thank you very much 21:41:24 (oh and I had to change @body into @rest in this language..) 21:41:46 simard: I've seen that notation before, but I can't remember where. Which language is this? 21:41:58 SKILL 21:42:06 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:33 it's a kind of lisp, but also allows C-like synthax 21:42:41 for example if( and (if are equivalent 21:42:50 and you can do a = 5 or (setq a 5) 21:43:00 I tend to stick to all lisp like though 21:43:22 simard: sounds awful. how does it handle a = (b = 5)? 21:43:26 rswarbrick [n=user@cpc1-cove3-0-0-cust907.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:43:45 dlowe, doesnt seem to be a problem 21:43:50 a and b are both 5 21:44:06 what if b is defined as a function? 21:44:19 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0E68C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:44 b becomes 5 21:45:11 H4ns3 [n=hans@p57A0E68C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:39 Anyone who uses eval-in-frame regularly? 21:45:57 Hello there, I've got an asdf question: This afternoon, I wrote a new asdf component to deal with an interface generator called swig. This works well. But I'd like to extract that work to a different file. My idea was to make a system called :asdf-swig and get stuff using it to :depends-on it. However, the system that wants to use it wants to have my custom component type :swig-source-file in the defsystem call. This isn't defined 21:45:57 parse time... Is there a way to make this work? 21:46:07 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 21:46:42 tcr, no more need to bug these cadence guys with my problem anymore, btw 21:49:54 Realised that didn't make a huge amount of sense, so there's a paste demonstrating what I'm talking about at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76633. 21:50:06 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:49 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:58 rswarbrick: were you writing bindings for something? 21:53:13 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:53:15 oh, libelf 21:58:16 archangeleon [n=archange@cpe-72-228-162-52.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:37 Yep :) 21:58:50 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.39.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:00:18 *p_l* just got basic bindings for tokyocabinet last night, done with swig 22:00:21 Problem is that to use a component you've defined in defsystem, you seem to need to have already actually loaded the bit defining it (I do understand that this isn't unreasonable). Anyway, it seems that I have to actually have a (load "asdf-swig") or something at the top of my file. Euch. 22:00:40 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F392.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:00:45 *rswarbrick* hasn't done much useful work yet. He was playing with not having to use make! 22:02:11 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:32 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F392.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:02:48 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:04:08 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:35 -!- jajcloz_ [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:05:57 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:09:13 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:10:01 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-150.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:06 Ok, well I've found a hack to make it work for now, but would love a better solution. http://paste.lisp.org/display/76633#1 22:10:24 -!- diog3n3s [n=diog3n3s@97-118-148-234.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:05 minion: memo for Hun: Hi Hun! Please ping me up when you're around. 22:11:06 Remembered. I'll tell Hun when he/she/it next speaks. 22:12:43 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:13:03 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-13.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 22:13:23 crod_ [n=crod@32.12.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:52 -!- crod_ [n=crod@32.12.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has left #lisp 22:16:31 -!- ravster [n=6rd3@U108.N164.QueensU.CA] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:22:07 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:04 is there a function to generate a list containing X times an element ? for example.. (thefunc 'a 4) would yield (list a a a a) 22:26:46 How about (loop for i upto (1- 4) collecting 'a) ? 22:27:10 I don't have access to loop 22:27:17 What lisp are you using? 22:27:21 it's not lisp 22:27:23 it's SKILL 22:27:30 but it looks like lisp.. 22:28:28 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns 22:29:38 Well, I'm afraid you'll have to find someone who knows the language then. Do you have do? In which case you could use that. 22:31:02 aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:14 ... Hey, isn't that MAKE-LIST? 22:32:26 Eek. I didn't know that function... 22:34:49 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 22:36:01 rswarbrick: and instead of `upto (1- x)' you can use `below x' 22:36:44 well, where X is integer 22:39:20 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-138-129.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:41:52 iStig [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:43:35 -!- macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["NIL"] 22:44:04 -!- iStig [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:44:44 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E44A0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:44:59 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:45:14 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:54 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:49:03 ... Well, that sucked. 22:49:22 Just tried SLIME + cygwin emacs + cygwin clisp on windows. 22:49:40 The REPL prompt showing up in the *inferior-lisp* buffer was a little wierd. 22:49:47 What sucked? 22:50:07 Using C-c C-k on a test file to crash clisp with a segmentation violation wasn't very useful behavior, though. 22:50:19 <_3b> why cygwin versions? 22:50:47 Because it theoretically gets me a usable environment. 22:51:08 With no silly line-ending noise. 22:51:48 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.89.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:35 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@14.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:54:37 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:11 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-201-67-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:28 jestocost [n=cmell@x250019.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:58:52 borism [n=boris@195-50-201-67-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 22:58:59 Hm, I got a sldb-repl (based on eval-in-frame) working. 22:59:34 Okay, tried again with the slime-fancy contrib. Now I get an error "VALUES: Too many values" when I C-c C-k my test file. 23:00:21 you exceed clisp's multiple-values-limit? 23:00:44 -!- mije [n=mije@tal33-5-88-181-16-209.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:01:03 multiple-values-limit => 128 not too much 23:01:07 nyef pasted "The error and backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76640 23:02:29 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-201-67-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 23:02:30 nyef annotated #76640 "The test file" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76640#1 23:03:05 So, I'm fairly sure that I'm not screwing anything obvious. 23:03:19 dwave [n=ask@062016209059.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 23:03:20 ... There was an "up" in that sentence when I typed it. 23:06:24 seems to be the call to regexp:match in swank-backend::parse-cygwin-filename 23:06:39 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-112.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 23:08:08 -!- crod [n=cmell@x250021.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:12 borism [n=boris@195-50-201-67-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 23:10:19 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:10:41 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:10:56 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:11:09 amaron [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:15:03 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:15:51 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:18 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 23:16:41 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 23:17:30 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-186.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:18:14 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:08 -!- younder [n=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:21:16 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:25:29 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:26:22 -!- amaron_ [n=amaron@cable-94-189-243-158.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:27:16 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:30:19 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@82.83.99.137] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:22 -!- simard [n=simard@modemcable234.226-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:32:51 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:33:42 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bblb"] 23:35:34 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:48 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BFD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:46:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:43 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:47:35 r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-6-177.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:47:48 -!- r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-6-177.home.otenet.gr] has left #lisp 23:55:50 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCDE3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:39 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 23:57:29 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-156-134.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"]