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(Connection timed out)] 00:50:15 housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 00:50:21 -!- housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Client Quit] 00:50:21 Has anyone done any analysis on how well lisp implementations utilize the cache? 00:51:03 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:52 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:57 housel [n=housel@193.34.25.51] has joined #lisp 00:52:11 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:17 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:53:24 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 00:53:29 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:54:31 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 00:58:25 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:59:24 -!- elurin [n=user@88.231.223.140] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:59:52 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:55 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:25 -!- masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:02:59 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:03:20 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 01:06:45 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 01:06:59 jso: what sort of questions would you try and answer? 01:12:44 Just curious, really. But, I know a significant performance penalty associated with misusing the cache. I'm interested in seeing if lisp implementations do utilize the cache well. 01:14:48 It's mostly a question of how well they let you lay stuff out. SBCL is usually good enough for me with specialised vectors. There's some badness with the GC moving code around, but apart from that, I can usually get the same performance and layout as C on really memory-bound tasks. 01:17:06 Wow! That is pretty much what I was wondering. I know there is little hope for lisp competing with the better tuned matrix libraries, but I was wondering what I could expect if I were to use or write a wrapper to the BLAS and LAPACK libs. 01:17:21 *jso* really wants to use lisp on some robotics projects. :P 01:17:31 just use a good BLAS and LAPACK. 01:18:14 simple specialised arrays are laid out in memory in row-major order, just like C. 01:18:32 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:18:34 As I'm in academia and the projects fall under research, I've got GotoBLAS, which absolutely dominates everything else. 01:20:08 freelab [n=freelab@58.62.4.126] has joined #lisp 01:20:42 Question: Does anyone have experience with the cl-opengl library? 01:20:44 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:19 actually, that's not true, because GCC lets you explicitly ask for SSE intrinsics, or sometimes automatically vectorizes code, but if that's not applicable/useful, things are pretty good. 01:23:38 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@206.167.180.24] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:28:20 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:28:24 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:30:21 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:02 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 01:36:45 -!- antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 01:38:33 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-177.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:38:38 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:18 benny [n=benny@i577A08C1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 01:39:49 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:54 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:25 -!- freelab [n=freelab@58.62.4.126] has quit ["My God! Gone..."] 01:42:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has left #lisp 01:46:23 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:50 What is kosher CGI library nowadays? 01:50:40 iceman_ [n=iceman@121.223.198.16] has joined #lisp 01:50:58 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-38.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:51:25 -!- vinc456 [n=user@unaffiliated/vinc456] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:51:48 not using CGI 01:53:40 FCGI? 01:53:53 Whatever. 01:53:59 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:54:10 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 01:54:23 I can even proxy HTTP to custom web server, if that is kosher. 01:55:04 That's how it's usually done these days. 01:55:31 Alright, what are relevant libraries to look for? 01:55:35 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:55:47 SXML?.. 01:55:51 minion: hunchentoot 01:55:52 hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a web server written in Common Lisp and at the same time a toolkit for building dynamic websites. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 01:56:03 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:22 Thanks. 01:59:34 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.39.253] has joined #lisp 02:00:34 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:05:49 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:20 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:08:32 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:45 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:58 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 02:12:54 simard [n=simard@modemcable234.226-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:13:21 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:10 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:15:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:16:22 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:48 I have a little macro: (defmacro bbox_combine2 (@rest boxes) `(mapcar 'bbox_to_list (list ,@boxes))) that when used as such: (bbox_combine2 a b) where a = ((1 2) (3 4)) and b = ((5 6) (7 8)) yields: ((1 2 3 4) (5 6 7 8)) (bbox to list takes ((1 2) (3 4)) and gives (1 2 3 4) 02:17:13 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:17:17 now, in the same macro, I would like to do a (mapcar 'max (1 2 3 4) (5 6 7 8)) 02:17:42 that is, splitting the result of the previous mapcar 02:17:43 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:17:47 how can I do that ? 02:18:29 why is that a macro? 02:19:54 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.209.161] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:20:35 (defun combine-boxes (&rest boxes) (list (alexandria:flatten boxes))) (defun combine-boxed-boxes (&rest bboxes) (mapcar #'combine-boxes bboxes)) 02:21:00 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:05 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B4D4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:23:12 alexandria ? 02:23:21 minion: alexandria 02:23:22 alexandria: Alexandria is a collection of portable public domain utilities. http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 02:23:36 oh yeah.. I am not actually really using lisp :) 02:23:45 the language is SKILL 02:23:59 so I don't have access to these fancy libs 02:24:19 maybe you can sleuth out the meaning of the alexandria function that I used. 02:24:20 <_death> you didn't answer pkhuong's question 02:24:54 _death, yeah I know I am thinking about that.. well of course it doesn't have to be a macro 02:25:23 I was more playing with that possibility to learn something about them 02:25:44 <_death> part of learning about macros is learning when not to use them 02:26:13 _death, but as you say that, now I remember.. I want to apply mapcar to a list of lists 02:26:23 but as if they were actually lists, not a list of lists 02:26:39 <_death> you're using the right terms, actually. 02:26:40 well, part of the early stages of learning macros is that. This is also like how people learn about optimization. Then eventually someone has to write a book like "Seriously, guys, let's optimize stuff." 02:26:46 (splice the list before using mapcar) 02:27:13 gueux [n=g@d193-152-246.home3.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:18 hi :-) 02:27:23 <_death> ayrnieu: I'm not sure what your point is 02:27:51 hello gueux. 02:28:02 _death, do you get my point ^ 02:28:09 is there a function (replace-at-n n x l) which replace the nth element of l with x? 02:28:20 gueux - setf 02:28:48 gueux - as in: (setf (nth n L) x) 02:28:49 <_death> simard: I'm not sure what your question is 02:28:55 gueux: (setf (nth n list) value)? 02:29:09 (please don't name things 'l'. This is CL, you can use words.) 02:29:21 pkhuong: what were we talking about again? 02:29:24 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:30:08 and then the result will be the list with only the nth element changed? 02:30:19 gueux - TIAS. 02:30:24 slyrus: Dispatching graph-related routines on both the graph and the vertex, for example. 02:30:34 [or read the spec.] 02:30:34 I am more familiar with functional languages, so that would not work :-) 02:30:35 <_death> simard: if you have a list of lists, then you can use `apply' to pass them as separate arguments 02:30:37 thanks 02:31:05 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:31:12 _death, that would be it 02:31:15 thank you 02:31:22 gueux - CL isn't a functional language. Exhibit A: the question you just asked and the answer you got. 02:31:45 hum, I know 02:31:47 :-) 02:32:23 but my mind does not want to think like that 02:32:29 <_death> gueux: if you want to do it without modifying any list, you can use `substitute' with :count 1 02:33:02 <_death> of course, I would never write such code ;) 02:33:35 <_death> actually, no need for :count either.. given that you use :start/:end (and you need to fetch the old element, too..) 02:33:56 _death, so I would do something like (apply 'mapcar (cons 'max (mapcar ...))) 02:34:03 (which works now by the way) 02:34:58 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:35:00 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:35:05 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:35:18 simard - (apply #'mapcar #'max (mapcar ...)) -- you don't need to cons the prefix arguments. 02:35:19 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:19 <_death> gueux: another way is (defun foo (n value list) (let ((new-list (copy-list list))) (setf (nth n new-list) value) new-list)) .. then pretend that it wasn't you that implemented it 02:35:35 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:35:41 <_death> gueux: heh, and return the new-list of course (getting late) 02:35:56 in fact I need to write a function which would give me a list different from n elements of each element of a given list of list 02:36:32 I'm not sure that it is very clear :-) 02:36:32 <_death> so write that ;) 02:37:43 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:24 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-250.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:39:05 -!- sulo [n=sulo@p57B4B412.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:40:12 thanks _death :-) your function is what I wanted to do :-) 02:41:33 -!- 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[n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 04:05:24 schme, night' 04:05:46 chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-089-131.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:53 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE00236916024d-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:06:54 simard: Well ok :) 04:06:58 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@dslb-094-216-089-131.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:07:34 -!- jrockway_ is now known as jrockway 04:09:56 iceman_ [n=iceman@121.223.198.16] has joined #lisp 04:11:48 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 04:13:33 -!- _death [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:14:17 iaindalton [n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:12 A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation uses the terms `global' and `local' scope, while Practical Common Lisp uses the terms `dynamic' and `lexical'. What's the difference? 04:16:04 Touretzky lies to simplify things. 04:16:32 Oh, I like that. 04:18:25 aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 04:18:42 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:20:53 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-072-020.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:25 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:12 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.3.64] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:26:28 -!- iceman_ [n=iceman@121.223.198.16] has left #lisp 04:30:24 -!- simard [n=simard@modemcable234.226-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:33:24 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:34:40 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:33 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:42:25 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 04:43:11 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 04:44:58 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 04:48:31 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:48:47 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:01:23 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:57 sylecn [n=sylecn@resnet-50-97.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 05:06:48 -!- sylecn [n=sylecn@resnet-50-97.dorm.utexas.edu] has left #lisp 05:07:16 dihymo [n=dihymo@wsip-98-174-244-38.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:44 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:11:52 is there a function select in lisp? I mean: (select predicate mylist) returns a list which elements are those of mylist which verify predicate 05:13:22 clhs remove-if-not 05:13:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 05:14:30 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:14:45 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:15:34 thanks :-) 05:15:40 pkhuong: anything in particular about it? I'm still not sure it's the right approach, but seems to be working for me so far. the downside being that vertices don't necessarily know where they came from, so to speak. 05:15:43 tmh pasted "Equal significant figures" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76402 05:17:17 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit ["new video driver.. bbl."] 05:18:37 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:19:18 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:19:21 younder [n=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 05:21:08 slyrus: lets me encode things efficiently, and the interface could be modified to minimise GF dispatch overhead simply (with curried GFs). 05:22:05 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 05:25:04 Soulmann [n=kae@34.80-203-160.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:25:55 dihymo_ [n=dihymo@wsip-98-174-244-38.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:55 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@wsip-98-174-244-38.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:28:09 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@34.80-203-160.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:33:55 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:35:32 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:35:43 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 05:39:10 I'd appreciate any comments on my pasted code. My understanding of floating point arithmetic is fairly basic and I'm wondering if I might have better luck by bit bashing or some other technique. 05:39:36 -!- xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [] 05:49:11 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:54 -!- Pegazus_ [n=awefawe@host125.201-253-177.telecom.net.ar] has left #lisp 05:51:14 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:58:21 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 06:00:10 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:03:51 -!- gueux [n=g@d193-152-246.home3.cgocable.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:10:03 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:18:48 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:21:45 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 06:25:46 psyllo [n=psyllo@216-160-225-38.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:55 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:45 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:15 dtangren_ [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:33:55 I have a quick performance question for those of you more familiar with webserver uses to LISP 06:34:26 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:34:39 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:35:32 -!- younder [n=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 06:35:56 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:36:13 haimez: ask your question, don't ask to ask it. 06:37:16 haimez: You may proceed ;P 06:37:16 fair enough, is a LISP backend similar of hunchentoot capable of handling a large number of queries simultaneously in a situation similar to say.. facebook? 06:37:17 -!- toxeus [n=toxeus@adsl-176-63-111.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:37:47 toxeus [n=toxeus@adsl-176-63-111.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:51 or would such a high traffic and complex data assembly too much for that type of application 06:38:08 are you expecting to build something that handles the kind of traffic facebook does? :P 06:38:21 haimez: Hunchentoot will be fine. 06:38:29 I do expect to yes 06:38:46 haimez: Just start one hunchentoot instance and you're good to go. 06:38:56 ;P 06:39:05 well the question isn't whether or not Hunchentoot is capable of such a task 06:39:11 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 06:39:16 but whether it's too inefficient a method to accomplish my goal 06:39:28 and if there is a method you can think of that would be better 06:39:39 haimez: Doesn't that fall under hunchentoot being capable? 06:39:55 haimez: what I would suggest is that you 'just' build your app and make your interface flexible enough so you can write your own web server if you find hunchentoot to not quite fit the mold :) 06:39:57 there's a difference between technicallly able to perform the task 06:40:11 and performing it too slowly to meet the expectations of users 06:40:28 if you're ever on the way to requiring so much performance out of hunchentoot that you can't use it (???), you probably have enough manpower and funding to do something like that. 06:40:28 also, I'm eluding more generally to using LISP to render each page as a function then display it 06:40:37 haimez: Start with something reasonable, like hunchentoot. If you grow out of hunchentoot you'll have plenty of resources to switch to something else. 06:40:48 Hurrah for caching. 06:40:57 haimez: We say Lisp when referring to Common Lisp and LISP to refer to 'classic' lisp. 06:40:59 haimez: In otherwords: Just cross that bridge when you come to it. 06:41:17 well the bridge would be crossed very close to launch if successful 06:41:30 so the initial coding would have to be capable 06:41:45 haimez: don't listen to Startup people, their egos are so large they could explode any minute. They're a liability to have around. 06:42:08 haimez: You're problem is going to be how many many webservers can you afford to put behind load balancer(s). 06:42:17 Your app will be utterly unsuccessful, you'll have 5 people on your Web 3.0 social network, and it'll proceed to get lost in the sea of other "Synergize your world" crap that keeps popping up. 06:42:22 and so on 06:42:29 *sykopomp* goes off to be pessimistic somewhere else. 06:42:31 it's not startup fever but rather the purpose of the system that indicates that large traffic increases will happen too quickly to adapt like that 06:43:06 -!- dtangren_ [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:43:09 haimez: You will have to grow your hardware regardless of what webserver software you use in the scenario you are describing. 06:43:19 haimez: Twitter is run on Ruby. That should tell you plenty. 06:43:24 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:43:28 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-74-64-125-73.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:43:32 haimez: Your database server would likely be a bigger concern. 06:43:54 the hardware cost isn't necessarily the primary concern but rather relative efficiency 06:44:06 you'll be fine 06:44:11 chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.173.52.92] has joined #lisp 06:44:19 would a ruby implimentation be more efficient at similar tasks? 06:44:36 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:44 -!- frodef [n=ffj@69.80-202-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:48 and since I'm not familiar with ruby, is it as flexible as (c) lisp for changing the software quickly? 06:44:49 of course, Ruby is well-known for its high performance and stability for high-demand applications. 06:45:17 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@mue-88-130-67-015.dsl.tropolys.de] has joined #lisp 06:45:32 (I lie. Ruby runs like a mentally incapacitated cow that just had its legs broken underneath it) 06:45:38 haimez: Good question. If you use Rails with Ruby and you use some more efficient database access strategy in Common Lisp then CL will be better. 06:46:26 haimez: you know Orbitz? 06:46:31 I do 06:46:35 it runs on SBCL 06:46:50 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:20 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:47:28 I see. Delightful. are the functions that orbitz performs similar to how hunchentoot would process information or is it only using SBCL to precache options and something else to handle each individual user request 06:47:50 I don't know, ask someone from ITA Software for details, they run a lot of their stuff on CL. 06:48:13 IRC channel? 06:48:15 I believe the engine that finds the actual routes is what runs on SBCL 06:48:20 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:48:34 haimez: there's some ITA employees that hang out here regularly. 06:48:47 Well, unlike hunchentoot, I doubt that it spawns a thread per request. :) 06:48:59 hah 06:49:25 yeah that was my initial concern. And I'm obviously only in the beginning stages of this project 06:49:39 but I was drawn to lisp by the quick modification flexibility 06:49:52 Reddit ran on Lisp for a while, too. 06:49:57 Yes Lisp does QMF very well. 06:49:59 but they figured lisp sucks, so they switched to Python. 06:50:28 cheatcountry1 [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:50:35 so we're alluding to truely high-traffic web-apps needing more than LISP to manage the front-end? 06:51:00 *psyllo* is sorry for his sarcasm. 06:51:04 I wouldn't want to run any sort of web application on LISP. 06:51:28 but maybe LISP 1.5 with m-expressions might be more appropriate. 06:51:43 *psyllo* detects more sarcasm going around 06:51:59 I see. But as a back-end it might suffice? Which is to say functions such as adding users etc 06:52:24 if you manage to get it up and running, I think you deserve to be successful solely based on that. 06:53:03 hahaha well given that I'm not LISP1337 enough to know what you're talking about I'll assume it was a mockery of my aspiration 06:53:05 :-P 06:53:38 I'm not going to give you the answer you want, which seems to be the only answer you'll accept. 06:53:46 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@mue-88-130-67-015.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:53:56 younder [n=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 06:54:42 sykopomp: Maybe you could be more clear. 06:55:05 "Hunchentoot is a great solution, Lisp is good for everything, and it will bring you great success" 06:55:30 sykopomp: Okay, now what do you really think? 06:55:49 no sir, what I wish to know is what should I be looking for to handle what I wish? 06:55:58 "This behavior is undefined" 06:56:05 lol 06:56:31 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:56:48 I think it's been make clear that (c)lisp is too resource heavy for a frontend (thanks, I did need to figure that out) but could suffice for a back-end possibly 06:57:03 so then what should be the front-end? 06:57:07 Java-script? 06:57:24 Yes, if you want to make things less resource-heavy, Java - script is the way to go. 06:57:49 haimez: I don't see a problem with you using Hunchentoot and Common Lisp. Then again I am no expert on the subject. I don't know if performance is going to be any more of an issue than it is in Ruby + Apache for instance. 06:57:51 It's a high-performance, portable language with a large standard library of useful tools. 06:58:09 Javascript, that is. 06:58:55 does Javascript run it's calculations server or client-side? 06:59:34 haimez: That's a bit off topic but it can be used for whatever you want pretty much. 07:00:21 indeed just hoping someone might know off-hand 07:01:31 also, off topic; anyone know how the difference between periodic and perpetual inventories as they pertain to accounting well enough to help me with my studying for my test tomorrow :-P ? 07:01:49 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:01:49 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:02:08 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o slyrus 07:02:18 haimez: Depends on where you run it ... 07:02:19 -!- slyrus changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: Hunchentoot & Drakma 1.0.0, SBCL 1.0.26, usocket 0.4.1, ABCL 0.12, cl-net-snmp 5.19, yason-0.1, trivial-features 0.4, CFFI 0.10.3, series 2.2.10 07:02:44 -!- slyrus has set mode -o slyrus 07:03:35 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:03:59 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:04:00 zhivago care to elaborate? In such a circumstance where I was to create a large-traffic webservice with sensitive personal data, would it become less secure to run the javascript client-side and simply request the images and data necessary to render the page? 07:04:14 obviously given some sort of authentication system on the backend 07:04:20 haimez: As opposed to? 07:04:56 bbiab 07:04:59 zhivago I suppose the alternative of what hunchentoot does; render the page into html server side and deliver that to the client 07:07:10 haimez: You get the benefit of that by using AJAX. Rending a page once and then just update portions of it. 07:08:03 this could be quite beneficial I believe; I hate to flood the #lisp channel with off topic chat. Anyone available to go to another channel for this discussion? 07:08:32 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:09:29 haimez: Sounds like you have a lot of personal research to do before you even begin to attempt what you are trying to do. 07:09:55 hello 07:09:55 joined #websystems . Anyone knowledgeable and willing to discuss is invited and their assistance is appreciated 07:11:31 mrspec hello 07:11:44 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087FCD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:57 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@p508EE216.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:05 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@p508EE216.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:16:17 psyllo I do have quite a bit to do. IRC channels such as this have been extremely beneficial so far 07:19:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-92.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 07:20:35 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087FCD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 07:20:49 Is CLISP supposed to use the same seed for random every time I start it? 07:21:18 haimez: Getting someone to hold your hand through anything is beneficial. Unfortunately, it's rare that you are going to find someone with the interest or time to do that. 07:21:43 I don't think handholding is beneficial. 07:22:05 haimez: Having said that. I will do my best to answer any Lisp related question you may have. God knows I have a ton. 07:22:25 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:22:38 sykopomp: Too much of a good thing can be bad, sure. If that's what you mean. 07:22:40 ;P 07:22:49 psyllo believe me I quite understand. At least initially, being pointed in the right direction can help tremendously. ie: if someone had declared, Designing your frontend should be done entirely in FORTRAN! I would have investigated my fortran options thuroughly 07:23:37 it just seems that in my position right now I have many many options, and not necessarily the time to learn 5 different languages before I settle on one to use 07:24:00 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:24:03 haimez: You will have to learn at least 5 languages to make a production web site. 07:24:04 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 07:24:16 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 07:24:27 ianmcorvidae: Sure, why not? 07:24:32 yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:24:52 mega1 [n=mega@53d82e02.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:24:56 tcr: talkin' to me? 07:25:02 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:25:03 psyllo if that's the case then I'll do it; that said I don't really count HTML and SQL as "languages" per say or at least not in the same way I consider (c) lisp, C++, Java, or Javascript languages 07:25:10 ianmcorvidae: Yes, re the initial seed 07:25:20 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:25:25 I need to choose a more unusual name 07:25:38 Oh I'm totally sorry 07:26:21 prepend an _ to your name, and tab completion will be safe :) 07:26:36 tcr: Well it makes sense that it would, I just thought it was weird when I ran a script, made a change, ran it again, and got the same seeded value 07:26:44 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [Client Quit] 07:27:01 _ is ugly to type, I'd expect someone in a lisp channel to suggest - ;-) 07:27:52 It's easy to type on qwertz layout :) 07:28:35 *iaindalton* has dvorak, but thought most layouts required shift-dash to type an underscore 07:30:04 sure it's shifted but still easy to type 07:30:41 meh, you're right enough 07:31:40 Perhaps there's some fancy unicode character that looks like _ but isn't. Although I do not know whether you're allowed to use unicode characters in nicknames. 07:31:45 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:47 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:31:52 It'd sure be annoying :) 07:32:30 just saw this on reddit; the next Scheme Language Steering Committee http://www.r6rs.org/steering-committee/election/nominees.html 07:32:49 not allowed (though it could be client-side, dunno) 07:33:03 But I can't name myself something weird 07:33:34 Feely, Reese, Clinger http://www.r6rs.org/steering-committee/election/results.html; even if you don't write scheme code, read the first link to see good hacker modesty :-) 07:35:53 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:37:13 I wonder how long it'll take them to spit out r7rs. 07:37:13 -!- toxeus [n=toxeus@adsl-176-63-111.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:37:45 toxeus [n=toxeus@adsl-176-63-111.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:08 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.173.52.92] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:43 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:38:52 sounds like a complicated voting system 07:39:04 *iaindalton* wonders what advantages it has over simple approval voting 07:39:13 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:40:30 iaindalton: their democracy is funny. CL doesn't even have a means to verify citizenship; anybody and their brother* can get sbcl commits (anybody and their brother who aren't win32 hackers, that is) 07:40:47 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has joined #lisp 07:42:13 What's the advantage in numbering your preferred candidates rather than checking all for which you approve? 07:42:15 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:39 good morning 07:42:41 iaindalton: it tends towards the middle. It gives you the candidate which most people are the happiest with. 07:43:01 as opposed to going only for the extremes, which can bring in tight races and make a lot of people very unhappy 07:43:26 How's approval voting encourange election of extremes? 07:44:17 oh, you mean check off all you like 07:44:28 I don't know 07:44:32 i like xach's model better: "I will buy you a beer if you buy me one" 07:44:37 (I thought you meant 'pick your favorite' 07:44:53 fusss: that's problematic when you don't like beer. 07:45:07 pick your favorite wouldn't work when electing a group, would it? 07:46:03 OT: bugtraq tells of an (GNU|X)Emacs sploit ... 07:46:06 it would if you're electing people for specific places within that group, I misunderstood your initial question :) 07:46:17 t 07:46:42 fusss: Saints preserve us, Surely, they wouldn't dare attack a niche within a niche within a niche, would they? 07:48:04 sykopomp: said sploit only works if you have font-lock-mode enabled and you are editing a *.c mode and have python in your path. 07:48:15 Looks like it only works if you run arbitrary code 07:48:27 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:48:37 not just a C file, any source file that has local variables 07:49:30 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:50:14 a bunch of desktop stuff have been exploited recently; dia, blender, audacity, vim, emacs, ktorrent .. 07:51:28 Ma bitnam ya rijjal 07:52:20 -!- azanar [n=azanar@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has quit [] 07:53:59 sbahra: nope, i don't :-) 07:54:11 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 07:58:10 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has joined #lisp 08:01:07 masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 08:02:02 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE00236916024d-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 08:02:48 splittist [n=dmurray@13-55.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:02:51 morning 08:03:36 hey splittist 08:04:04 Lisp, deformed beyond recognition: http://ociweb.com/jnb/jnbMar2009.html 08:05:15 Krystof_ [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:06:38 .. not the box-and-arrow diagrams i had in mind http://www.ociweb.com/jnb/jnbMar2009-ClassDiagram.png 08:12:31 nice quote: "...syntactic sugar. The more of them there are, the shorter certain kinds of code become and the more readers of the code have to learn and remember. It's a tricky balance." 08:12:51 from that clojure link 08:15:03 *splittist* has never thought of ; as syntactic sugar before 08:15:23 *iaindalton* didn't know about (comment) 08:19:12 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 08:20:23 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 08:24:06 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:26:53 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 08:28:17 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:28:32 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:28:37 -!- Krystof_ [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:30:54 The problem with (comment ...) in cltl2, iirc, is that it just evaluates to nil. 08:31:15 Which means that (+ 1 (comment "add some numbers together") 2) means something different to (+ 1 2) 08:31:28 Ah 08:31:30 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:32:02 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:03 I suppose it couldn't not return a value? 08:32:09 Although I may be confused, so you'll want to check that. 08:32:14 Not using the values mechanism. 08:32:19 wtf?! (comment ..) is a valid lisp comment 08:32:29 It would require some additional magic in the evaluator. 08:33:23 I'm a newbie, so forgive me if this makes no sense, but couldn't comment be a macro with no body in the defmacro? 08:33:35 That would replace the form with nil. 08:33:43 Oh 08:33:50 (defun foo ()) is equivalent to (defun foo () nil) 08:34:14 It is a weakness of the macro system in CL that it cannot produce multiple forms, imho. 08:34:31 (which is why progn has a special meaning with regard to top-level forms) 08:34:33 I'm asking about defmacro though 08:34:51 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:35:04 Zhivago: Do you have a minute? There was something you said a while back which I'd like to understand a bit more about. 08:35:07 Sorry. I meant to write (defmacro foo ()) is equivalent to (defmacro foo () nil). 08:35:12 Sure. 08:35:36 well, I find the use of packages as modules or semantic namespaces a dubious practice, but since CL doesn't provide anything else ... # what do you mean by a "module" exactly? 08:35:56 A mapping from name to value. 08:35:59 *Aankhen``* is a little confused about packages vs. modules vs. namespaces. 08:36:18 I will define a namespace as a mapping from string to name, and a module as a mapping from name to value. 08:36:26 Ah. 08:36:39 Packages are then namespaces, with symbols acting as modules. 08:37:11 Each symbol is a module under that definition? 08:37:11 -!- toxeus [n=toxeus@adsl-176-63-111.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:38:16 Well, that's one possible interpretation. Otherwise you could look at there being one module implemented by symbol-value, and another by symbol-function, and so on. 08:38:22 I see. 08:38:29 Thanks for the explanation, that clears it up a bit. 08:38:42 Either way, CL has degenerate modules in the usual sense of the word, and well developed namespaces. 08:38:56 Degenerate? 08:39:04 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:39:06 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 08:39:16 Well, you are stuck with N of them, pretty much. 08:39:25 Ah, yeah. 08:39:34 You could use macros to remap symbols to other symbols, though. 08:40:26 *Aankhen``* nods. 08:40:27 e.g., translate foo:bar into cell:23, and then your macro would be a kind of module. 08:40:43 (particularly if you added a function to allow dynamic lookup) 08:41:22 You then end up with your module storage being in the form of named cells, which you need in order to be able to unify them across multiple storage units. 08:41:27 lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has joined #lisp 08:41:29 To test performance I wrote a loop that concatenates a string one character at a time in C, Ruby and SBCL. In C this means I realloc on each iteration. Ruby beats them both by far but SBCL is super duper slow. 08:41:56 I should use a buffered string of some sort eh ;) 08:42:13 So, in the final analysis, CL provides the tools that you need for implementing complex modules, but the core language itself doesn't. 08:42:45 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:43:03 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:43:26 I learn something new about CL every day. :-) 08:47:22 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-131-101.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:51:27 Wow. So appending using (setq a (format nil "~A." a)) is faster than using (setq a (concatenate 'string a ".")). 08:52:51 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:54:05 toxeus [n=toxeus@adsl-176-63-111.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:12 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:00:09 /msg sbahra: my .au visa sponsorship just came in; C++ gig, startup will have to wait til i make first few months' rent ;-) 09:00:19 shit 09:00:44 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-143-250.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:01:41 toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:01 So, format is faster than concatenate in this case but still doesn't even come close to Ruby or C. Anybody know how I should go about optimizing this in SBCL? 09:06:11 -!- yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:07:43 psyllo: what on earth are you benchmarking? 09:09:02 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:55 psyllo: there is no way in hell is format faster than concatenate for that example case 09:10:07 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 09:10:56 fusss: Well I must be fowling up my test then. 09:11:20 just appending a dot to the end? 09:11:29 fusss: Exactly. 09:11:51 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@93.40.119.116] has joined #lisp 09:12:01 i can think of a thousand different ways to do it, bu concatenate should be the most straightforward 09:12:22 hello 09:12:39 fusss: I am just taking "" and concatenating "." in C, Ruby and SBCL. 09:12:54 hey fe[nl]ix 09:13:17 hello fusss 09:13:24 fusss: Yesterday I noticed at a glance that Ruby did this pretty fast and my theory was the C with a realloc to the string on every iteration would end up being slower than Ruby. I was right. It's obvious they were doing some optimization. 09:14:46 fusss: When I tested SBCL it was super slow compared to both. SBCL 1.78 real, C 0.28 Ruby 0.01 with 10000 characters using FreeeBSD7.1R `time' command. 09:15:28 -!- l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:16:27 psyllo: that example is so contrived and minute, it's hard to take it seriously. you might wanna take a better example, like concatenating all the entries in /etc/passwd or shuffling a fortune cookie file or something. 09:17:33 fusss: Of course it is if you're talking about an overall performance examination of these 3 languages but this is just be screwing around and learning. 09:17:46 [1]> (time (concatenate 'string "foo" ".")) 09:17:48 Real time: 0.0 sec. 09:17:49 Run time: 0.0 sec. 09:17:51 Space: 12 Bytes 09:18:20 fusss: I want to see if I can get SBCL to come close to what Ruby is doing. 09:18:56 fusss: I found it interesting that format outperforms concatenate. 09:19:14 " 0.000000 seconds of total run time (0.000000 user, 0.000000 system)" <-- sbcl. boy i hope ruby is doin' it in negative time ;-) 09:19:34 fusss: How man characters are you concatentating? 09:19:53 s/concatentating/concatenating/ 09:19:59 l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:20:32 i just typed "foo", scroll up. 09:20:48 fusss: hehe 09:21:09 fusss: What about when you concatenate 10000 characters? 09:21:15 i also have a copy of the Illiad from gutenberg project .. 09:21:24 (in a loop one at a time) 09:21:46 one character at a time? 09:22:01 plage [i=strandh@hamilcar.enseirb.fr] has joined #lisp 09:22:08 Good morning! 09:22:24 hello plage 09:22:34 teaching at Enseirb today? 09:22:40 fusss: That's what the whole test was dude ;P 09:22:40 yep 09:22:48 Marnin' 09:23:16 Yo plage 09:23:16 psyllo: here is your benchmark text, ok? http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext00/iliad10.txt 09:23:44 psyllo: i will be bored tomorrow and we can compare results ;-) 09:24:38 psyllo: a better exercise might be building histograms for letter frequencies or something 09:25:24 case-insensitive, and you can do word frequencies as well. 09:25:47 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 09:25:48 hey splittist what's up? 09:26:06 fusss: I still want to optimize this in CL to approach the speed of Ruby. 09:26:31 plage: the usual - shock that it's March 2009 already 09:26:46 fusss: Got any good general benchmark stuff of SBCL or maybe CMUCL? 09:26:57 Like cook websites with cool benchmarks? 09:27:07 psyllo: i don't for a second believe matz' ruby is faster at string processing than sbcl. define your problem and use that illiad text as a reference, i feel like playing with this tomorrow :-) 09:27:14 s/cook/cool/ 'cuz cooks don't program much 09:27:39 psyllo: for numeric computing, i can think Didier Verna's most recent paper 09:28:35 splittist: I know the feeling. 09:29:15 fusss: URL? 09:30:38 psyllo: http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/research/verna.06.ecoop.pdf 09:33:06 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:34:11 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:34:18 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9DD8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:34:39 uniqueid [n=david@fl-67-235-143-170.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:03 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 09:35:31 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA24C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:35:33 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 09:35:36 -!- lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 09:40:10 -!- uniqueid [n=david@fl-67-235-143-170.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 09:41:40 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 09:41:43 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:42:43 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:44:38 neerolyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 09:45:07 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:48:26 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 09:49:08 -!- plage [i=strandh@hamilcar.enseirb.fr] has left #lisp 09:50:36 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:51:20 -!- neerolyte is now known as lyte 09:51:41 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:52:09 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:55:45 -!- cheatcountry1 [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 09:56:38 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:55 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:59:41 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:01:10 HET2 [n=diman@pns-201-067.demo.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:05:30 -!- jao [n=jao@40.Red-83-33-183.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:24:07 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 10:24:39 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 10:25:21 -!- haimez [n=chatzill@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]"] 10:27:24 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:33:05 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.127.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:35:55 G'day! 10:36:18 good afternoon 10:37:02 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:02 mvilleneuve: it is actually a project course done in Lisp. 10:41:11 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 10:42:57 gmroning 10:46:11 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:47:44 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:48:08 hleo tic 10:49:26 ih all 10:50:09 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:54:28 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:35 :-) 10:55:49 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:02:17 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 11:02:53 tic: surely you mean "-:)" 11:06:09 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 11:06:10 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 11:09:38 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:12:48 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18:28 -!- hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 11:22:18 heh 11:24:36 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.140.168] has joined #lisp 11:25:23 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:26:16 jsoft_ [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 11:26:19 elurin [n=user@193.140.230.101] has joined #lisp 11:28:51 bbe [n=bbe@221.226.133.33] has joined #lisp 11:31:51 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 11:31:53 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #lisp 11:33:06 -!- HET2 [n=diman@pns-201-067.demo.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:33:31 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-67.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:37:12 -!- spacebat_ is now known as spacebat 11:37:12 -!- toxeus [n=toxeus@adsl-176-63-111.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:37:13 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:37:39 toxeus [n=toxeus@adsl-176-63-111.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:43 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:38:13 HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:38:17 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:04 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:39:14 splittist, -:) 11:39:45 hhe 11:39:58 And I think that exhausts that 11:40:03 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:40:55 Sounds palusible, yes. 11:41:28 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:44:38 speaking of which. AspectL, anyone tried it? 11:45:39 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 11:49:15 -!- _dima [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:49:18 _dima [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has joined #lisp 11:56:05 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 11:57:47 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 11:58:24 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 12:00:16 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@13-55.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:58 tic: the author disrecommends it, for what it's worth 12:01:32 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:01:36 (not the specific rendering of the idea of aspect-oriented programming, but the idea itself) 12:02:39 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:03:19 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:43 cmm-, I've come to need something like aspects. Say I want debugging enabled (or whatever other "aspect"), globally, but I need to act locally. 12:08:20 i.e means different actions for different objects(?), but I don't want to/can't hardcode the aspect to act on. 12:08:57 KalifG [n=user@166.128.127.68] has joined #lisp 12:12:08 -!- trebor_d` [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 12:12:47 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:13:26 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:14:27 hello, good day everyone 12:16:16 tic: ContextL is the evolution of AspectL and appears to be actually used in the wild and supported by the author, so perhaps it's a good idea to look at that 12:19:53 matthewc [n=matthewc@76.250.249.141] has joined #lisp 12:20:00 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:11 cmm-, goodie, thanks. any ideas on my thoughts, by the way? 12:23:05 trebor_dki: good day :) 12:23:14 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:26:47 tic: sounds vaguely fitting, as far as I can see anyway 12:28:11 cmm-, trying to write a make(-ish) replacement, and I end up doing all kinds of funky language exercises 12:28:42 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087FCD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:23 hi, is there a way to recompile all the asdf-installed packages ? 12:30:02 hnr [n=henry@62.49.66.13] has joined #lisp 12:30:03 I updated to sbcl 1.0.24, et now I have to recompile everything 12:30:19 but the exception handler asks me to recompile for each function :s 12:31:11 tic: I went there 4 years ago, ended up with basically a whole new language. didn't use any funky generic dispatch schemes, though, just hanged behaviour on the objects using a sort of hierarchical property map scheme 12:31:20 find -name "*.fasl" -delete 12:31:42 galdor: I have http://codepad.org/N27LHcmv in my .sbclrc 12:31:46 (and since I'm here, it seems to me that the asdf packages' location is hardcoded, is this normal ?) 12:32:12 The-Kenny: nice fix, thank you! 12:32:44 -!- matthewc [n=matthewc@76.250.249.141] has quit [Client Quit] 12:32:49 galdor: no, it's not hardcoded 12:32:51 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:33:58 stassats: sorry I thought so. is there a documentation about how to create new repositories, how to use them, etc. ? 12:34:45 The-Kenny: works perfectly, thank you 12:34:46 tic: come to think about it, something like ContextL could come in handy regardless, due to its ability to define, well, behaviour that is dependent on context :) 12:35:07 galdor: No problem. I found it somewhere in the internet. 12:35:13 galdor: http://cclan.cvs.sourceforge.net/*checkout*/cclan/asdf/README 12:35:39 (where context describes time, not surface syntax regions) 12:35:58 The-Kenny: there should be a "recompile all" exception handler 12:36:28 stassats: thx, gonna read it 12:38:37 stassats: seems I didn't explain myself well enough, I'm talking about online code repositories :) 12:38:45 asdf goes straight to cliki.net 12:38:59 I'm asking if it's possible to have multiple online code sources 12:39:00 asdf doesn't know about online repositories 12:39:20 like with ruby gems for example (very cool for example to add code directly from github) 12:39:55 so, you mean asdf-install 12:39:57 it sure does, since when I do a (asdf-install:install 'foo), it knows how to download it, nope ? 12:40:08 not the same system ? 12:40:09 cmm-, *nod* it seems like I've done something similar to what you're talking about, it seems. http://mikael.jasson.be/static/tmp/linnea.txt 12:40:11 asdf and asdf-install are different things 12:40:19 oh didn't know this 12:40:30 cmm-, (ignore the language, hope you can read it) 12:40:31 my mistake 12:40:36 and i doubt there are any other "repositories" 12:40:50 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:41:49 github.com add an interface for rubygem, so you can directly install a gem hosted as a github project 12:42:07 tic: doesn't resolve for me 12:42:07 would be cool to be able to do this kind of thing 12:42:23 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.140.168] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:42:45 cmm-, sorry, try http://mikael.jansson.be/static/tmp/linnea.txt (can't spell my name) 12:42:51 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:54 centralization is a bit... restrictive 12:43:05 that's easy, just write asdf-git-install 12:43:08 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:11 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:43:16 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:25 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.140.168] has joined #lisp 12:44:01 stassats: ah you mean asdf-install is just a kind of "driver to install from cliki ?" 12:45:09 the word "driver" doesn't seem to me appropriate 12:45:13 cmm-, added the def. of EnvData/Command, gives a clearer picture of the slots workdir 12:45:39 asdf-install is just a program, which installs packages linked from cliki, and which everyone hates 12:45:52 stassats: sorry english isn't my mother tongue 12:46:15 stassats: if everyone hates it, is there any alternative ? 12:46:30 clbuild 12:47:31 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:10 if seems cool, it's a pity it isn't the default in sbcl for example 12:51:29 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:52:50 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:43 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d82e02.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:58:06 tic: interesting. brain's too fried right now to understand the details, though :) 12:58:44 cmm-, are you in the US, i.e. bed time? Would you mind comment on this when you're in a non-fried state? I'd very much appreciate it. 13:00:21 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 13:00:35 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4341.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:00:59 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 13:02:02 splittist [n=dmurray@93-47.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:02:22 I'll have all my memos now, thanks minion 13:02:31 *splittist* is not surprised 13:03:40 tic: more or less the same timezone as you, just tired and half-sick. will look at it later 13:04:03 cmm-, okay, great! thanks! 13:04:34 de rien :) 13:06:40 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:06:40 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:06:40 -!- housel [n=housel@193.34.25.51] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:06:40 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:06:40 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:06:40 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:06:40 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:06:40 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:06:40 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:06:40 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:06:40 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:07:01 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.226.214] has joined #lisp 13:07:01 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:01 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 13:07:01 housel [n=housel@193.34.25.51] has joined #lisp 13:07:01 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:01 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:07:01 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:07:01 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:07:01 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:01 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 13:07:01 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 13:07:01 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:08:53 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:10:33 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:45 G'morning all. 13:12:04 _zenon_ [n=x@dhcp-197-95.nomad.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 13:12:10 hey nief. 13:13:37 -!- psyllo [n=psyllo@216-160-225-38.slkc.qwest.net] has quit ["Bye now"] 13:15:06 -!- hnr [n=henry@62.49.66.13] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:17:21 hnr [n=henry@62.49.66.13] has joined #lisp 13:23:00 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 13:23:14 Wow. I was right to think I was wrong last night. Most of what I wrote yesterday evening is wrong. 13:24:15 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:33 svaksham [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 13:27:57 -!- svaksham [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Client Quit] 13:27:58 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:29:11 clhs define-compiler-macro 13:29:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_define.htm 13:29:44 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:33:25 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:37:40 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 13:37:40 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:41 Ooh. There's a slime-compiler-macroexpand. Nice! 13:45:31 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:46:39 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host81-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:47 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:46:49 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:02 prip_ [n=_prip@host60-120-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:47:21 nyef annotated #76385 "Let's try that again" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76385#1 13:50:01 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:41 -!- hnr [n=henry@62.49.66.13] has quit [] 13:55:50 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E993.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:52 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.127.68] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:00 -!- segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1E4DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:35 heckt [n=user@salle207.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] 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the connection] 15:10:23 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 15:11:43 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.3.64] has joined #lisp 15:13:05 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.3.64] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:14:10 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:14:19 Greetings! 15:16:15 -!- HET2 [n=diman@iswjestija.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:17:27 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.3.64] has joined #lisp 15:17:49 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:57 Howdy :) 15:22:18 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-99.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:24:55 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 15:28:01 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:22 -!- elurin [n=user@193.140.230.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:26 <_zenon_> Hi 15:31:41 -!- ___wrykyn [n=wrykyn@24-155-93-252.static.grandenetworks.net] has left #lisp 15:33:30 Ogedei` [n=user@78.52.226.214] has joined #lisp 15:33:58 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:35:42 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.226.214] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:35:42 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:35:42 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:35:42 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:35:42 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:35:42 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:35:42 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:35:42 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:35:42 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:35:42 -!- housel [n=housel@193.34.25.51] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:35:42 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1E993.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:35:42 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:35:42 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:36:38 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:45 hi there 15:37:02 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 15:37:06 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:38:01 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:42 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:39:42 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:39:42 addled 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(Other than when compiler hacking.) 15:40:46 splittist: Yes. 15:40:49 (correct for 's' preference) 15:41:17 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:41:34 splittist: yes. 15:41:45 schmx: pkhoung: OK. What benefits do you feel you get from it? 15:41:48 mega1: and did it pay off? 15:42:05 pkhuong: the short answer is no 15:42:10 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:42:16 mega1: good. 15:42:26 the long answer is that neither did the 16 one ... 15:42:31 splittist: I am not sure really. I think it's some obsessive compulsie disorder thing I have going. 15:42:52 I really do wish I had some good answer there though. 15:42:56 splittist: you get to see more clearly how changes in the source affect the code generated, which makes it easier to understand why performance is affected. 15:43:13 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.226.214] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:43:13 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:43:13 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:43:13 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:43:13 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:43:13 -!- housel [n=housel@193.34.25.51] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:43:13 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1E993.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:43:13 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:43:13 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:43:26 schmx: I think psychic satisfaction is a valid reason for using a tool. 15:43:44 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:43:44 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 15:43:44 segv [n=mb@p4FC1E993.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:44 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 15:43:44 housel [n=housel@193.34.25.51] has joined #lisp 15:43:44 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:43:44 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:54 pkhuong: I can see that. 15:44:39 pkhoung: I had very good cl-bench results for some builds until I realized that for some reason some cl-bench runs had systematicall higher system time than others. Coincidentally, these runs had lower user time ... 15:44:41 I'll also go with the thing pkhuong said. 15:45:49 pkhuong: I aligned both the function header and the start of the code on 32 bit boundary but it didn't do a thing. 15:46:39 looking at the boinkmark results for when the x86-64 loop alignment stuff was added I can't see any effect at all either so it's not that surprising. 15:46:52 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:46:52 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:46:52 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:46:52 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:46:52 -!- housel [n=housel@193.34.25.51] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:46:52 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1E993.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:46:52 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:47:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:47:19 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 15:47:19 segv [n=mb@p4FC1E993.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:19 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 15:47:19 housel [n=housel@193.34.25.51] has joined #lisp 15:47:19 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:47:19 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:23 maybe there is a very small gain to be had, though I haven't managed to convince myself. 15:47:34 mega1: only really tight loops will be clearly affected. 15:49:11 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:49:11 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:49:11 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:49:11 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:49:11 -!- housel [n=housel@193.34.25.51] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:49:11 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1E993.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:49:11 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:50:37 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:51:02 -!- sweemeng [n=sweemeng@248.94.50.60.cbj05-home.tm.net.my] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:52:14 lyte [n=lyte@60-242-109-30.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:52:26 segv [n=mb@p4FC1E993.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:36 Aligning the beginning of functions probably also happened randomly with a decent probability, so for that, it's probably more useful to avoid random gc-related slowdowns. 15:53:06 pkhuong: the tight loops I wrote are slower when aligned ... 15:53:35 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:45 Are you sure they're not uniformly misaligned? 15:55:17 or became too big to fit in a cache line due to the alignment overhead? 15:55:52 this modern cpu tech is the new woodoo, I tell ya 15:56:10 cmm-: the loop doesn't become bigger. Only stuff that comes before it. 15:56:26 LostMonarch [n=roby@host209-181-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:56:30 Zhivago: quite sure. The difference is not much though, they may be the same. 15:56:36 but definitely not faster. 15:56:48 housel [n=nhousel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 15:57:08 pkhuong: not if there is, say, another loop inside it 15:57:58 I only added the padding for the innermost loops 15:58:04 cmm-: that inner loop will still not be larger. 15:58:27 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:59:15 it's just hard to believe that alignment can have a negative performance impact solely by itself, is all. but who knows 15:59:54 -!- karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:01:02 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@dhcp-197-95.nomad.chalmers.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:01:28 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:03:18 -!- ejs [n=eugen@243-117-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:04:02 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:05:48 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:32 antgreen [n=green@CPE0013f7bcd3c0-CM0013f7bcd3bc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:56 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:31 http://paste.lisp.org/display/76413 16:11:00 code is 16 byte aligned and so is the loop 16:12:45 I have to go now 16:15:20 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:15:39 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:16:18 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 16:18:18 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:20:07 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:21:46 I'm trying to develop a function that reliably compares 2 floating point numbers for equality to N significant digits. I want to stress that I'm interested in significant digits, *not* decimal places. Anyway, I find a write-up on Google that claims that 2 floating point numbers are equal to N significant digits if |x* - x|/|x| < 5E-N. But, a simple hand calculation shows this incorrect. 16:21:50 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:22:00 trebor-dki pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76415 16:22:10 Where x* is the approximation and x is the correct value. 16:23:37 |2.1 - 2.02| / |2.1| = 0.038 < 5E-2 , refuting that equation. 16:24:09 i try to write a macro, which prints symbols as a list like (print (list 'symbol symbol 'symbol2 symbol2 ...)) and if the last symbol is a stream it should create (print (list 'symbol symbol 'symbol2 symbol2 ...) stream-symbol) - can someone give me a hint what i did wrong at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76415? 16:24:58 ups - wrong paste, wait a second, please. 16:25:28 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:25:54 ... What you did wrong is pick a truly funky input format for your macro. 16:26:05 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:26:08 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:46 nyef: i need to keep it compatible to older versions (without stream-option) 16:26:53 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@34.80-203-160.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:27:01 ... Then you should have designed the older version for extensibility. 16:27:08 trebor_dki: use a keyword? 16:27:18 the older one was my very first macro at all. 16:27:58 Use a different name for the new macro, and convert any call sites that need the new behavior by hand? 16:28:56 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 16:29:24 is there no way to use streamp to check if the last symbol is a stream and put it after the list if it is one? 16:29:51 The types SYMBOL and STREAM are disjoint, so no. 16:30:00 Or, rather, yes, but it's not what you want. 16:30:27 milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.24] has joined #lisp 16:30:49 At the point when you wish to check to see if the -value- of the symbol is a stream, that's also possible, but it has to be done at runtime, not during macroexpansion. 16:31:17 lacedaemon [n=algidus@93.40.119.116] has joined #lisp 16:31:20 On the whole, it's a bad job, and there are only so many ways to deal with it. 16:32:01 kruth [n=chatzill@kruth.org] has joined #lisp 16:32:01 Oh! All the parameters to the macro are required to be symbols? 16:32:22 ok, that means, one should never rely on the value of parameters in a macro, right? 16:32:28 tmh: you want to work with the log_10. Problem is, log_2 is much faster to compute. 16:32:58 If all the parameters are required to be symbols, add special-case handling for the first parameter being a list instead, and destructure that list for your stream argument. 16:33:21 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:30 -!- __death is now known as _death 16:33:40 pkhuong: I don't quit follow, could you expand? 16:33:56 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:08 s/quit/&e/ 16:34:26 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:34:59 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:06 tmh: you count digits with log. 16:36:06 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 16:36:55 It's not so much that you should never rely on the value of macro parameter symbols, but that you should be aware of when evaluation and binding happens. 16:37:31 pkhuong: Oh, yeah. So when that person claimed that |x* -x| / |x| < 5E-N, they meant in Log_2 significant digits? 16:37:49 (That wasn't clear from the write-up.) 16:37:55 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:37:56 nyef: sorry, i do not quite understand what you said before that. usually i use the macro for debugging like this (let* ( a..b..c..d...) (rgl-print-symbols a b c d)) -> (print (list 'a a 'b b 'c c 'd d)) now i would like to enhance it to (w-o-f my-stream ..... (rgl-print-symbols a b c d mystream) ->(w-o-f mystream ..... (print (list ....) mystream). 16:38:17 no. They're not counting significant digits there. 16:38:20 trebor_dki: Is the stream meant to be part of the output list? 16:39:08 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:40:31 pkhuong: Well, they claim they are: "Significant Digits. The number x is said to approximate x to n signicant 16:40:31 digits if n is the largest nonnegative integer for which" see previous equation. 16:40:32 nyef: i saw no short way to prevent 'mystream mystream to be inside the list, so i didn't care, because i failed to get it after the list, too (print (list ..... 'mystream mystream) mystream) 16:42:01 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:42:05 tmh: Well, they have a weird definition of significant digit that works with relative error (and fails when x -> 0). 16:42:59 trebor_dki: (defmacro rgl-print-symbols (first-arg &rest remaining-args) (if (listp first-arg) `(w-o-f .(car first-arg) (print ...)) `(print ...))) ? 16:43:06 pkhuong: Something erroneous on the internet? Inconceivable, my faith in the internet has been dashed. :-) 16:43:37 trebor-dki annotated #76415 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76415#1 16:43:39 trebor_dki: And change the handling for the non-list case to also include first-arg in the list. 16:43:58 avdi [n=avdi@216.230.102.194] has joined #lisp 16:46:40 -!- avdi [n=avdi@216.230.102.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:48:33 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:27 nyef annotated #76415 "Maybe this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76415#2 16:49:28 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:21 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:50:45 trebor-dki annotated #76415 "more clearly - maybe" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76415#3 16:52:00 trebor_dki: What do you do if the last symbol could legitimately be a stream, such as a socket? 16:52:27 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@93.40.119.116] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:28 avdi [n=avdi@216.230.102.194] has joined #lisp 16:53:38 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-239-63.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:53:47 Besides, having a magic option at the end of a macro arglist is virtually unheard of. Mostly because there are usually better-known ways to do whatever it is that you hope to accomplish with such an arrangement. 16:53:55 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9DD8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:54:18 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@151.204.133.189] has joined #lisp 16:54:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@93.40.119.116] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:54:46 lacedaemon [n=algidus@93.40.119.116] has joined #lisp 16:54:55 trebor_dki: bind a special. 16:55:16 nyef: i thought it to be like the normal (print object &optional output-stream) 16:55:37 -!- Patzy_ is now known as Patzy 16:55:37 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 16:55:40 -> (rgl symbols &optional output-stream) 16:56:16 That only works with a fixed number of objects. 16:56:23 Consider instead the use of FORMAT. 16:57:00 willb [n=wibenton@wireless108.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:57:19 i see (now) 16:57:35 consider binding a special! streams are practially _the_ example for special variables. 16:58:07 Yeah, (with-open-file (*standard-output* ... 16:58:56 (Though, really, you could run into trouble that way if symbol-macros are involved.) 17:00:01 that is how i did it before, but now i am using broadcast-streams, i hoped just to put the stream-variable at the end of the list and .... - but i now see that this is not possible. 17:00:29 It's possible, just not reasonable. 17:00:41 i was thinking (defvar *rgl-print-stream* *standard-output*) .... blah blah. 17:01:21 trebor_dki: bigger question is of course _why_ you want to do this, as it is kind of odd. 17:01:27 No, no... A synonym-stream to the trace output... 17:01:53 drewc: AIUI, it's meant for temporary debugging output. 17:02:07 drewc: the idea was, to do minimal changes to existing code and to extend it nicely. 17:02:07 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:02:21 damn .. synonym streams! learn something new every day. 17:02:36 i would have fired up sb-gray to do that lol :) 17:03:14 trebor_dki: i could write a lot of code that matches that spec.. could you be a little more specific? IS it just for debugging? 17:03:50 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:04:40 -!- hnr [n=henry@62.49.66.13] has quit [] 17:04:54 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:06:28 cmm-, feeligng better ye? 17:06:29 drewc: it is for easy printing out symbols/variables without doing all the format things. just for later inspection, why the results were caclulated this way (printing out parameters as a header of a data file). the values are not needed as input for doing graphs they are for documentation of the data. 17:06:38 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:41 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:06:42 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 17:07:12 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 17:07:13 drewc: and while coding i use it for printing intermediate results. 17:07:57 till now only to *standard-output*, the (bad) idea was to use it for file-streams, too. 17:08:25 trebor_dki: so it's a mix of two things really.. you want logging (case 1) and debugging (case 2). 17:08:40 seems to me we've got different tasks all muddled up! :) 17:09:20 drewc: somehow i think of detailed logging ~> debugging ;) 17:09:37 trebor_dki: agreed, i was just about to make that point :) 17:10:07 then i reduce details and get what i need to add to the accurate formatted data. 17:10:11 trebor_dki: and suggest that you start with an exisiting logging solution. 17:10:26 trebor_dki: have you seen, say, arnesi's logging stuff? 17:10:41 it would be trivial to extend it to your needs. 17:11:16 oh, i never tried to use libraries in lisp - as a beginner i am happy if my code works 17:11:48 (and i also suggest learning to use the debugger over printing results.. i print debug myself sometimes, but much prefer BREAK) 17:12:27 ejs [n=eugen@243-117-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:45 trebor_dki: well, libraries tend to work of the shelf (ymmv), which should keep you happy, and moreso have code to read ... as a beginner reading code is infinitely more valuable than writing code. 17:13:50 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 17:13:58 trebor_dki: if you take a good long look at the implementation of a logging library, you might get some ideas. Worst case is that you learn something new. best case is you no longer have to write any code, cause the library does it all for you. win/win! :) 17:15:10 i use the printing mostly to check if the algorithms do what they should do (the behaviour/tendency of intermediate results) - i thought of break like setting a break-point for later stepping - but i have the feeling, that i am wrong ;) 17:15:51 drewc: google will find the lib you mentioned, i suppose, right? 17:16:11 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:18 trebor_dki: look on cliki first 17:16:24 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:30 (i only read through norvigs libs - but that was not what i was looking for) 17:17:01 minion: arnesi? 17:17:02 arnesi: arnesi is a collection of small Common Lisp utilities written by Marco Baringer. http://www.cliki.net/arnesi 17:17:11 trebor_dki: ^ 17:17:27 thanks. 17:17:30 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:17:47 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 17:18:21 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [Client Quit] 17:19:03 trebor_dki: BREAK immediatly dumps you in the debugger with a continuable restart. Since you can explore the stack frames in the debugger, you do not need to print the symbol names and values (at a high enough DEBUG level, they should be visible in the stack frames). Add the format string of break itself, and you've got a tool that is a lot more useful than PRINT. 17:19:21 i live in the debugger really. 17:19:46 write better code! 17:19:55 i 'sketch' most of the code, run it, and when it breaks fix it. 17:20:43 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:20:48 hefner: heh, that's not an option, either lisp or me is not quite capable... 17:21:42 He is writing better code, in the debugger. :-) 17:22:26 drewc: Not if you want to debug a loop. 17:22:53 *tmh* has decided to trade in his computer for an abacus, getting rid of all floating point related issues. 17:23:08 drewc: the print utility is/was not for fixing broken code, it is/was more like documentation like e.g. trace but for intermediate results. 17:23:18 Programming By Exception. Start with an empty repl and type (my-application). Keep adding code until there are no exceptional situations. I like it (: 17:23:24 is there some forgotten reader variable I can frob to make CL read numbers like "1,234,456"? 17:23:37 tcr: true 'nuff/ 17:24:19 drewc: You can checkout my slime presentation, there's a function so you can use ~/swank::p/ which acts like ~S but the thing will be a slime presentation which you then can inspect later on if you want so. 17:24:32 And here I thought programming by exception was to set things up so that your handler-binds did all the work of your program. 17:25:08 splittist: interesting idea xD 17:25:29 splittist: that's essentially how i do it yeah :) 17:25:50 See my forthcoming webcast: Agile PBE with SCRUM! 17:25:51 <_death> Minsky did it first! :) 17:26:20 a technique i picked up from Avi Bryant .. it works in smalltalk too. 17:27:01 would work better in an environment where debugging wasn't like repeatedly hurling yourself against a brick wall, searching for a weak point 17:27:07 tcr: That's when things like (set! break values) become useful ;) 17:27:54 is there any kind of concensus about AMD64 function calling conventions or is every compiler (CL or otherwise) just doing his own thing? 17:27:59 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 17:28:05 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:28:05 pkhuong: I do not follows; you mean watchpoints? 17:28:10 trebor_dki: well, it's logging then :). And your macro, sans stream argument, is probably on the right track. Personally, i'd just long-hand the symbol names as well.. but i prefer explicit code. 17:28:11 there's a consensus for C code 17:28:21 tcr: using BREAK in loops. 17:28:33 I don't think it's tail-call-friendly 17:28:47 Ogedei`: There's an ABI. I try to forget the details. 17:28:52 Fare: is it documented somewhere? 17:29:00 pkhuong: Ok, what is that supposed to do? :) 17:29:32 *drewc* slinks back to optimizing SQL. It's not as easy as a DECLARE. 17:29:45 Ogedei`, look for ABI. C++ might even be included (or not). 17:30:06 C++ is included. 17:30:18 drewc, wasn't the whole SQL propaganda about not having to do it by hand? 17:30:24 There's a long discussion of stack unwinding and C++ exception handling in the ABI document. 17:30:24 tcr: break is a function in some schemes. Feeley was explaining how to use it to debug functions, but he used it in a function that was called from a loop. 17:30:29 nyef, including name-mangling? 17:30:30 Fare, nyef: great, I'll google 17:30:52 I don't remember anything about name-mangling. 17:33:47 this is only tangentially related to lisp, but it's interesting: http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant?currentPage=all 17:34:03 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 17:35:03 Bah I miss a REPLACE-ALL-MATCHES 17:38:16 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 17:38:39 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:38:59 Fare: yeah, well, if your algorithm sucks, which mine currently does as it was ported from another RDBMS which has indexes on views, there is nothing the query planner can do for you. 17:39:19 bbl 17:39:30 Fare: unfortunately, SQL is a lot lisp CL.. the specified just enough to almost be useful. 17:39:43 a lot like CL* 17:40:15 *drewc* has never written anything an application in 100% ANSI CL or SQL. 17:40:26 *drewc* is having english problems this morning. 17:40:28 coffee time. 17:40:30 it's interesting that your fingers type 'lisp' more often than 'like'. ;) 17:40:59 Fade: hahaha, i guess that says something about my online persona don't it :) 17:41:43 peanut butter jelly time! 17:41:55 well, it tells us that you don't speak valley girl. :D 17:43:08 Moonunit is DrewC's middle name... 17:43:15 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@93-47.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["while I'm not too far behind"] 17:44:10 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4341.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:46:28 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 17:46:33 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:11 -!- drewc is now known as DweezilC 17:48:34 well, that was a joke for splittist, but he's gone 17:48:38 -!- DweezilC is now known as drewc 17:52:24 tim_ [n=tim@p4FD2C1CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:51 tsuru` [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:37 -!- tim_ is now known as tst__ 17:54:24 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:55:50 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:01 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:56:31 drewc: Did you ever get my mail with an updated patch for plain HTML generation in YACLML? 17:57:30 Aankhen``: i don't think i did .. i would have remembered... but hold on i'll check 17:57:47 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 17:58:21 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:02 Aankhen``: i seem to have misplaced it.. can you send it again? 17:59:09 Sure. 17:59:20 Aankhen``: just send it right to me: drewc@tech.coop 17:59:48 Yeah, I'd sent it to both your address and the list. 18:01:10 drewc: Sent. 18:01:36 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:02:53 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:02:59 Aankhen``: how odd .. i must have had a 'ferret on keyboard' incident and lost the email. The little buggers have even managed to check-in code! 18:03:33 :-o 18:03:38 O_O 18:04:21 drewc: send me one of those. I can promise them a salary and a place to work :) 18:04:41 (of course, adapted to ferret standards :P) 18:04:52 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@93.40.119.116] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:05:01 p_l: the code compiled.. but sadly did not run. 18:05:16 i've been thinking about getting a ferret. 18:05:23 -!- kruth [n=chatzill@kruth.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:05:40 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:05:41 although the house I'm in is pretty big, and there are a lot of places one could get lost. 18:05:49 drewc: That's why they will be employed in research... if MIT could have employed a parrot, my uni can damn well employ a ferret :D 18:06:02 photon_ [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 18:06:10 p_l: fair enough! :) 18:06:15 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 18:06:23 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 18:06:30 Fade: they always turn up.. it's your stuff that goes missing. 18:06:41 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:06:44 were they a problem to litter train? 18:06:52 Fade: i passed out on the couch one night and when i woke up my keys and wallet were gone! 18:06:59 lol 18:07:02 *p_l* needs to check what will be needed to force the computing science dept. to hire a ferret 18:07:14 xD 18:07:33 well, they know -of- the litter box, and will use it if it's a) clean and b) convenient. 18:07:42 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:28 drewc: and what's the next option if it's not? 18:08:42 foom: corners .. it has to be a corner. 18:09:00 so, if you can avoid corners, they will tend to use the litter box 18:09:04 a boundary condition. 18:09:08 living on a boat, this is pretty easy. 18:09:17 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:23 in a house, well, when we moved we found a few poo stashes. 18:10:07 they are not like cats in that they do not mind their own scat, so you can't just rub their nose in it.. it has the exact opposite effect. 18:10:22 "oh it smells like poo... this must be where i poo!" 18:10:39 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A70F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:03 i guess you could mark the corners with some trace amount of cat urine. 18:11:11 anybody who would like to know more is welcome to come to #tech.coop, but as an op here i have to make some effort to stay on topic :) 18:11:13 i assume they avoid predators. 18:11:18 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 18:11:26 Fade: Ferrets prey on cats... 18:11:37 i have never seen a ferret lose a fight to a cat. 18:11:44 Jaguars, maybe? 18:11:46 huh 18:12:45 Fade: and, regardless, ferrets have no fear, no instinct for self preservation, and feel very little pain. 18:13:24 rewards worrk though .. they all love raisins. 18:13:48 and there are a few things they don't like the smell of. 18:13:52 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[n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:29:32 jsoftw [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:35:13 workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:37:12 puchacz_ [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:37:18 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:37:42 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:53 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:41:22 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:43 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 20:44:16 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:33 meep. 20:53:48 *p_l* is reminded of that Runner bird from old cartoons... 20:54:39 :) 20:57:02 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:57:17 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:59:21 -!- Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:42 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:19 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@mue-88-130-67-015.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:07 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:05:51 yeah, sbcl release binary search.. which one of the last one is the first one that doesn't run my application anymore. 21:06:19 good that the old binary releases are still online. that's really nice. and thanks for run-sbcl.sh :) 21:06:53 -!- photon_ is now known as photon 21:07:34 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 21:08:09 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:08:16 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:09:45 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:59 hm, 1.0.25, 1.0.20, 1.0.19 do not work, 1.0.15 and 1.0.17 do. sadly, 1.0.18 has no binary release. 21:14:27 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 21:14:40 debian has 1.0.18 sbcl 21:14:46 mega1 [n=mega@3e70c991.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 21:14:51 amd64? 21:15:15 yes 21:15:38 http://packages.debian.org/lenny/sbcl 21:15:52 oh nice 21:16:11 that's faster than continuing to build it. 21:16:12 after lenny release they finally updated it in unstable 21:16:12 thanks 21:17:59 -!- kruth [n=chatzill@kruth.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]"] 21:22:57 ok, 1.0.18 is the first one that doesn't want to run it. 21:24:24 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-109-52.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 21:25:53 in some spectacular fashion? 21:25:59 if it were only not the case that it only stops after some hundred thousand computations, and than hard. I suspect it could be when signaling a deeply nested condition. 21:27:59 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:27 mgr pasted "backtrace before it stopped" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76433 21:32:22 oh, interestingly the release notes of 1.0.18 mentions: "optimization: simple uses of HANDLER-CASE and HANDLER-BIND no longer cons." 21:32:33 are debug and sefety settings set high? 21:33:45 for the tests I've changed both to 3. 21:34:15 previously they have been at 0/0, and than 1/1. but then to 3/3. 21:34:54 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:14 the no-intersection condition is being catched by a HANDLER-CASE that is in the main function. so let's have a look at the changes mentioned in the changelog. 21:35:47 look also at https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl maybe there something relevant 21:37:08 stassats: oh, since when is that page used for sbcl? 21:37:34 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 21:37:48 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 21:38:13 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@242-69.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 21:38:15 I'm horribly out of sync with the development of sbcl of, say, the last year. 21:38:17 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0013f7bcd3c0-CM0013f7bcd3bc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 21:38:22 it is semi-official, since late last-year, afair 21:38:31 sbcl moves fast. 21:38:37 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 21:39:47 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:12 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-012-067.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:44 good evening ;) 21:42:48 i 21:42:55 I mean, hi. 21:44:29 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0E743.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:16 trebor_home pasted "the logging thing - my work-around - i just wanted to solve the problem (still will look at what drewc directed me to)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76434 21:47:53 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:49:16 that chain of (first(last(first(last looks hella weird. 21:49:33 drewc: you are right about library-reading & understanding & using (learning), but you know i wanted to get the idea working (did it in the train) ;) 21:50:16 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has quit [] 21:50:42 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has joined #lisp 21:50:57 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has quit [Client Quit] 21:51:48 Fade: printlist is like (('symbol1 symbol1) (....) ('maybe-stream maybe-stream)) and i need maybe-stream. i know it is not nice/clever (i did it interactively) - what is the function to get there directly? 21:52:14 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]"] 21:52:55 i mean the second part of the last list within a list. 21:53:14 err list of lists. 21:53:33 -!- MrSpec is now known as mrSpec 21:54:02 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:54:26 well, you're looking for successive cdr's of the list? 21:54:37 is there anyone familiar with hunchentoot:redirect here? 21:55:04 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:55:09 when I redirect a user, firefox opens a new tab with the update in, which is not what I want 21:55:18 couldn't you just do (cdr (last ..)) 21:55:19 ? 21:55:22 (cadar (last list)) 21:56:25 *Fade* points at stassats 21:56:30 what he said. 21:56:38 you could also use butlast instead of the reverse rest reverse 21:56:38 and if you do ((sym-1 . sym-2) ... (maybe-stream . maybe-stream)) then, (cdar (last list)) 21:57:38 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:58:01 and why not put that last element somewhere at the beginning? 21:58:12 -!- Seb [n=Seb@untangle/dev/seb] has left #lisp 21:58:42 like ((maybe-stream . maybe-stream) . ((sym-1 . sym-2) ...)) 21:59:33 Fade & stassats & Hun: thank you very much 21:59:34 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:54 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00:01 though i don't get what you're trying to achieve there 22:00:05 *trebor_home* did not know about butlast (and cadar) 22:00:22 it's c[ad]{1,5}r 22:00:49 composing accessors in that notation always gives me a headache. 22:00:51 Hun: this is just an ugly designed logging for me. 22:01:07 *stassats* would use something like (defclass foo () (stream variables ...)) 22:01:09 i found using signals for that immensely useful 22:01:25 (signal 'my-log-condition "something happened") 22:01:35 when you're debugging, just handler-bind it somewhere useful 22:01:39 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C9F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:02:16 together with a macro or 2 for the variable bindings 22:04:09 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 22:04:43 stassats: i do not understand - what is the purpose of the defclass? 22:05:17 that you use an object for the data instead of an ad-hoc list 22:05:36 abstraction 22:05:36 the object is a lot easier to destructure - the implementation does it for you 22:07:18 Hun: ah, do you have a simple example for me to look at? 22:07:36 for the class/object or the signal? 22:07:46 for both, there's a nice chapter in that sexy book 22:07:58 minion: show trebor_home that sexy book 22:07:59 trebor_home: i don't know what you're referring to 22:08:03 hmm dammit 22:08:04 pcl? 22:08:12 trebor_home: yes. 22:08:18 ah, ok, reading. 22:08:21 minion: That-dead-sexy-book? 22:08:21 That-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 22:08:22 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:25 Hun: ok, will scan it for that. 22:09:31 -!- nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:16 thanks 22:11:47 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 22:12:29 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:08 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:08 I wonder, how do logical pathnames handle files without suffix and dotted files? 22:13:22 hi nyef 22:13:51 Hello. 22:14:18 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-54-226.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:42 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host209-181-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 22:15:46 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:02 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:48 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:25 cddr [i=andy@user-5443e499.lns1-c9.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:18:02 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:04 Interesting. Composing (bilingual!) exams is even more effective at making me want to hack than writing (and rewriting, and ...) article sections. 22:18:13 what's the rsync command to get a copy of a cvs repo from c.l.net? 22:18:37 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:48 -!- puchacz_ [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:20:46 xb 22:21:13 sorry, was trying to switch buffers :-) 22:22:11 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-107.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:22:43 *** - SYSTEM::MAKE-LOGICAL-PATHNAME: Illegal :TYPE argument "" 22:22:51 Is it valid?? 22:25:35 clhs make-pathname 22:25:40 How can a file not have a type? 22:27:17 :> this-way 22:27:29 -!- dysinger is now known as the_idiot_former 22:27:47 -!- the_idiot_former is now known as the_idiot_ 22:28:11 -!- the_idiot_ is now known as dysinger 22:28:58 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 22:30:48 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:31 hmmhmm, let's see.. I've brutally changed back some changes in defboot.lisp. Now recompiling. 22:33:24 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:29 reminded me of Das Boot 22:34:59 :) 22:35:11 o/~ we al live in a coldboot submarine o/~ 22:35:24 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:14 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:25 tic: "error in FORMAT: string ended before directive was found" 22:36:27 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:57 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:02 drawford: you are not from Germany? I didn't know that the movie is widely known. or at least that it's still. 22:37:07 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:11 (or perhaps it is not) 22:37:36 *stassats* is not from Germany and knows that movie 22:38:06 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #lisp 22:38:43 no wonder the build takes a tad long, if xorg eat's a third of the cpu's performance because of the scrolling... 22:39:02 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70c991.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:05 though it might not be that bad as it's a dual core chip 22:39:11 still.. 22:39:13 use screen / /dev/null 22:39:26 stassats, :( 22:39:46 azanar [n=azanar@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:01 stassats: I've moved the window up so that I only see the last line. now it's better. (and I see when it's done) 22:40:12 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:40:52 -!- KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:41:05 mgr, _Das Boot_ is the international canonical submarine film. Any other is obliged to be compared to it, generally as `It's not _Das Boot_.' 22:41:13 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:37 Riastradh: what about Crimson Tide! 22:41:47 Riastradh: sorry, I just couldn't resist. :) 22:41:48 Dunno; I haven't seen it. 22:41:52 (nor heard of it) 22:42:05 But, for example, _The Hunt for Red October_, while fun, was definitely not _Das Boot_. 22:42:42 Riastradh: it's the only other submarine movie that comes to my mind. It's a bit funny sometimes. ("Now, give me just a single ping!" when they use their sonar) 22:43:02 or was it Red October.. hum.. 22:43:11 Came the man who sailed to sea? 22:43:19 The only submarine film I've seen that has come close is _K19_. 22:44:24 Riastradh: I know that Das Boot is known. At least here in Germany it is. I didn't know that it is internationally known to the extend you describe. 22:46:25 (ok, I've used up my daily dose of the word 'know'. :) ) 22:47:17 That's only because no true Scotsman made a movie of Under Pressure, Riastradh. 22:47:19 helps to have had college roommate who liked war movies (and might have seen it elsewhere too) 22:48:26 mgr, quoth Ebert on _The Hunt for Red October_: `The movie does not do as good a job of communicating the daily and hourly reality of submarine life as ``Das Boot'' did...' 22:48:36 Riastradh: who has directed K19? I find only information about a TV movie named "K-19: Doomsday Submarine", made in 2002. I don't think you refer to that one. :) 22:49:01 I don't remember who directed it, but Liam Neeson and Harrison Ford starred in it. 22:49:08 ok 22:49:12 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0267626/ that's it 22:49:17 who's Ebert? 22:49:22 I sooo read that as K-9 22:49:25 josemanuel [n=josemanu@152.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:49:36 "Under Pressure" aka "The Dragon In The Sea" aka "21st Century Sub [sucky title]" is the canonical international submarine *novel* 22:49:40 mgr: famous film critic of "Siskel and Ebert" fame. 22:49:45 Probably the most famous American film reviewer; he writes for the Chicago Sun-Times, and he's at the top of the list of external reviews on the IMDb for any film he has reviewed. 22:49:47 the guys that did the thumbs up/thumbs down thing. 22:49:51 stassats/Riastradn thanks 22:50:16 oh, my patched 1.0.26 is built.. 22:50:21 -!- Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:51:24 yeah, it is running! 22:52:33 I've really found the single evil patch in all of last year's patches to SBCL. I don't believe it. 22:52:46 Took a tad more than two hours. 22:52:50 http://sbcl.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/sbcl/sbcl/src/code/defboot.lisp?r1=1.58&r2=1.59 22:53:04 It really is a change to handler-case/-bind. 22:56:09 very, very nice. 22:57:13 Well, believe me, it's frustrating when a program that has been the work of ~ten month doesn't run anymore. 23:00:56 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087FCD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 23:02:26 I'm reading A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation, and he's talking about alists. If I have an alist LIST, why do (assoc 'foo list) and (rassoc (cdr (assoc 'foo list)) list) both return (foo bar) but (rassoc '(bar) list) doesn't? 23:03:15 what's the list you're trying to assoc on? 23:03:17 :test #'equalp 23:03:32 Because by default assoc/rassoc use EQ rather than EQUAL, and your list '(bar) is not EQ to anything in the alist. 23:03:38 what he said 23:03:54 ah, ok 23:04:25 so two lists that look the same aren't EQUAL but two symbols are 23:04:37 They are EQUAL, but they are not EQ. 23:04:41 (he says when using rassoc your alist should be a dotted list) 23:05:22 thx 23:05:25 Alternatively you can add :test #'equal to the rassoc call, and then it will use EQUAL instead. 23:05:47 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087FCD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:05 Yeah, well I'm not supposed to know about keyword arguments yet. I was just looking for the reason it didn't work as I expected. 23:06:22 jcowan: (To be exact they default to EQL, not to EQ.) 23:06:30 clhs assoc doesn't seem to say what the default is, but by the examples (which look up numbers in the alist but fail to look up strings) it should be EQL 23:07:15 since assoc is not an exception, it uses eql 23:07:16 tcr: Yes, my bad. 23:07:23 The default test function for equality is EQL throughout the spec when not specified. 23:07:25 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:07:39 clhs eq 23:07:58 Since EQL and EQUAL do the same thing on symbols, a dotted-pair alist of symbols will rassoc well. 23:08:55 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:09:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:12 -!- avdi [n=avdi@216.230.102.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:25 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has left #lisp 23:15:19 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 23:19:19 -!- tst__ [n=tim@p4FD2C1CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:21:42 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:45 gueux [n=g@d193-152-246.home3.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:50 hi :-) 23:21:51 -!- maxote [n=maxote@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:22:08 is there a tool to debug a program? 23:22:19 I've tried (trace myfunction) 23:23:03 in fact (myfunction args) gives me an error 23:23:11 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:23:16 and I'd like to know from where it comes 23:23:52 Look at the backtrace 23:24:25 how can I do that? 23:24:28 is this emacs lisp? 23:24:32 clisp 23:24:51 :bt 23:24:59 great 23:25:03 thanks :-) 23:25:04 You could read the Clisp implementation notes about how to make best use of its debugger 23:25:30 You can also use a development environment like, for instance, Slime. 23:25:42 I was reading http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/debugger.html [+] 23:25:55 Although I have to confess its Clisp backend needs some urgent love. 23:25:56 and haven't found :bt into it 23:25:58 is there a cliki entry on debugging or anything? (or a blog-post or something like that?) I find debugging in lisp harder than in other languages. This is probably due to a lack of knowledge of slime (for instance, I don't know how to set a break-symbol and hop through the code sexp-by-sexp) 23:26:11 gueux: type ? at the repl. it helps 23:26:16 It's really superb for SBCL 23:27:11 madnificent: Stepping is not well-supported by slime. 23:27:30 stepping is overrated. evaling inside a frame is so much better 23:28:08 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:02 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:29:19 Hun: IMHO, stepping is *really* handy for debugging, as it allows you to quickly discover where the strange stuff is happening in your code (at least, if the ide has decent support for it) 23:30:25 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@152.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:30:26 that's only possible if your execution path is pretty straightforward. otherwise you wouldn't ever finish stepping 23:30:44 Hun: step in/out/over exists for that reason 23:31:25 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 23:32:37 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-132-241.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:36:04 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:36:19 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-3.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:37 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:41:53 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 23:42:47 Is killing the slime repl buffer enough to kill the process, or will that leave an orphaned lisp process? 23:43:12 ,quit 23:43:35 killing the *inferior-lisp* buffer will do it 23:43:43 (kill the lisp process, that is) 23:44:37 Thanks. 23:45:19 Any reason C-d or C-c doesn't do it? That's what I use for IELM and Python 23:46:19 iaindalton: cause slime repl isn't connected directly to lisp process (*inferior-lisp* is) 23:46:29 unplugging your computer would work, too 23:46:39 lol 23:47:30 just don't leave repl 23:48:34 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:48:36 Yes, but isn't it reasonable to send C-d along to the inferior lisp from slime? Not that ,quit is a big hassle, but it makes sense to do so. 23:49:02 ,q will work too 23:49:54 or ,sayoonara 23:50:23 That's longer not shorter 23:50:27 ,q looks good 23:50:37 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-67.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:50:40 no, it has different semantics 23:50:45 Oh? 23:50:52 and ,s will do 23:50:59 It's not just some quirky standard-writer sticking it in? 23:51:01 What's it do? 23:51:09 it closes all connections and closes all slime buffers 23:51:55 Ah, that it does. 23:52:03 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-99.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 23:52:16 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-149-206.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:23 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:52:33 though, it leaves all those numerous Xref buffers 23:53:10 writing bug reports sucks 23:53:17 I haven't had any pop up on me; what are they? 23:53:21 (or at least is no fun) 23:54:24 *stassats* modified it to kill them too 23:55:04 iaindalton: like M-. on + in sbcl 23:57:36 What's that do? For me it just says Error at the top then lines starting with (:deftransform 23:58:07 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A70F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:58:23 C-h C-k M-. 23:58:39 mgr: how many handlers are defined in the dynamic scope of the bug? 23:58:52 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-109-52.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:59:58 Hmm, I wonder why it does'n work here