00:00:09 Let me put it this way. Xach's points are "I found something that's a big deal if you're hostile", author defends heresy that isn't the point of the book, author uses C concepts where Xach wouldn't, author dismisses subject that isn't the point of the book, author is kind of annoying. 00:00:39 runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 00:00:57 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:01:03 tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:10 -!- tsuru [n=user@66.199.17.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:01:19 you are talking too much about a book which doesn't worth it 00:01:25 -!- tsuru` is now known as tsuru 00:01:32 Therefore, *DON'T* by this Lisp book. Chapter 4 is titled 'Read Macros', it's CL from one cover to the other, other reviewers complain that Hoyte attacks Scheme as being wrong. 00:01:47 but Xach has read the first three chapters. 00:01:58 -!- tsuru is now known as Guest10020 00:02:17 if you ever do a review of the chapters you can't get for free, I'd like to read it 00:02:17 It's a lisp book, and a good one. I'll get back to it. 00:02:21 -!- Guest10020 is now known as tsuru` 00:03:42 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-250-155-29.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:03:48 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:04:14 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-250-155-29.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:19 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:39 auclairb [n=auclairb@dhcp180-24.residence.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 00:04:51 well, I'm off for now.. good night if that's the case 00:04:53 -!- GrayShade [i=GrayShad@79.117.186.252] has left #lisp 00:06:37 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:57 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 00:07:05 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-059-217.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 00:07:17 madnificent: ahoy 00:07:20 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-39-218.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:07:28 Let over Lambda's best stuff is around chapter 6 00:08:43 There was a lot of talk about Let over Lambda when it came out, and it died out pretty quick. Based on the first 3 chapters, it struck me as being as indepth as criticism of Lisp due to "all the damned parentheses" 00:09:06 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:09:51 -!- elurin [n=user@85.106.150.22] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:09:55 hmmmm... 00:10:05 You mind some nooby lisp questions? 00:10:17 -!- mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has left #lisp 00:10:27 just ask it 00:10:34 Is a lisp function always the result of a single expression? 00:10:54 what does that mean? 00:11:15 An expression always returns a value? 00:11:31 -!- jao [n=jao@25.Red-81-32-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:11:37 tommylommykins: functions in lisp can return 0 or more values. 00:11:37 expression can return zero or more values 00:12:38 But the return value of a function is always the result of a single expression? 00:12:45 tommylommykins: As he said, an expression can return zero or more values. Many things that consume values (say, input to another regular function) will use only the first one, or "nil" if there were zero. 00:13:02 tommylommykins: zero or more expressions 00:15:25 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 00:15:33 tommylommykins: Are you perhaps referring to the absence of explicit "return" like in C or Java? Yes, a function always returns the result of evaluating its last expression, barring the case of an explicit "return-from" from the enclosing function's scope. 00:16:08 I'm trying to make links to MaxScript... 00:16:30 Where an expression returns whatever the last expression evaluated within returned 00:17:12 tommylommykins: yes, lisp functions 'implicitly' return the last expression, but that last expression can return multiple values. At least that's one way to think about it. 00:18:26 tommylompkins: Go play with it a bit in a lisp. Type (values 1 2 3 4) as an expression that can return many values. Type (+ (values 1 2 3 4) 1) and see it return "2", as the call to + only used the first value. Type (defun test () (+ 1 2) (+ 3 4)) (test) And see how the test function only returns the 7 00:21:24 Yup. The second example is something I'm very used to from MaxScript 00:22:35 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:23 whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has joined #lisp 00:26:11 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:27:59 jao [n=jao@220.Red-81-32-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:59 is that Max as in 3ds max? 00:28:15 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 00:32:21 -!- tsuru` is now known as tsuru 00:32:32 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-250-155-29.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 00:33:39 tarbo: Yes 00:33:46 aargh 00:33:56 tsuru: Yes 00:34:02 *tommylommykins* curses at tab completion 00:34:17 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:01 just curious, I had to go google to make sure Max didn't do something awesome like make maxscript lispy 00:36:15 clawk-regex is giving me problems 00:36:26 Well, it's expression based.. 00:36:33 it doesn't seem to work as intended on dynamic input 00:36:40 I'm no lisp expert, but I'd say it was half way there 00:37:36 Let me find a little snippet to deomnstrate... 00:38:13 -!- runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:38:16 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:38:35 tommylommykins: use paste.lisp.org 00:38:38 sohum pasted "CLAWK-regex" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75830 00:38:44 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 00:39:25 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:39:46 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:46 so yea, I'm not sure why that's happening 00:42:41 sohum: is regex:scan-str a macro? 00:42:51 good question 00:43:13 tsuru: Here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/75831 00:43:54 That functions produces the output to the song "99 bottles of beer" 00:44:12 drewc: nope 00:45:07 "+" is used both as a concatenator and a line continuator 00:45:39 drewc: or at least (macroexpand-1 '(regex:scan-str...)) operates as IDENTITY 00:47:40 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-151-147.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:25 sohum: how/where are *scanstr* and input bound? 00:48:59 drewc: *scanstr* is a defvar, input is bound in the function definition 00:49:27 well that's weird, innit. 00:50:22 yep. it's the regex package from http://www.geocities.com/mparker762/clawk#regex 00:50:42 my impression is that it's doing something weird in its optimise step 00:51:50 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 00:52:09 why are you using that instead of cl-ppcre? 00:52:23 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:30 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C0DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:37 drewc: no particular reason, clawk-regex was the first one I found 00:52:47 I'll swap over 00:54:12 sohum: most lispers i know use cl-ppcre, and it works for me as well :) 00:56:20 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.42.154] has left #lisp 00:57:17 -!- tcr1 [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:01:59 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:13 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:06:33 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:07:15 -!- gueux [n=g@DU90.N46.QueensU.CA] has quit ["leaving"] 01:08:07 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:08:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:20 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 01:10:31 -!- jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:12:29 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp16-146.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:13:10 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 01:14:51 -!- spec[afk] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:03 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 01:21:07 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:30:45 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:39:31 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:09 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-094-228.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:46:03 clisp added a gtk interface 01:47:53 and it looks like a client/server thing like CLM 01:51:12 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:49 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 01:53:37 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:53:39 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:53:41 -!- texel [n=jtgans@74.125.59.1] has quit ["AIEEE!"] 01:53:55 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 01:53:59 karpar [n=chatzill@116.21.67.34] has joined #lisp 01:55:51 KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:57 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:56:36 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:10 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-fd933f851d154b99] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:03:41 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:08:17 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:08:21 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:11:09 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B5B8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:11:52 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 02:13:37 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:14:35 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 02:15:07 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:15:09 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 02:15:11 -!- schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:17 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 02:17:12 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:20:35 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [Client Quit] 02:22:38 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:05 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 02:24:08 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:27:37 -!- exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-157-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:28:25 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4869F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:11 -!- lboard [n=lboard@117.193.194.46] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:31:16 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-189.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:31:59 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-189.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 02:34:12 -!- technik [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:41:13 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-176.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:42:08 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:43:21 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-225.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:45:54 karpar_ [n=chatzill@116.21.66.119] has joined #lisp 02:47:06 technik [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:57 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-139-183.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:53:27 anyone use dynamic-classes here? 02:54:35 (dynamic-classes:find-or-create-class 'module '(logger-module)) for some reason returns dice-module-and-logger-module. I'm not sure why, or even what class architecture would be required to ever get that result 02:54:47 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A05C9.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:32 benny [n=benny@i577A0BF3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:55:47 -!- karpar_ [n=chatzill@116.21.66.119] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]"] 02:58:58 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:59:19 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 03:00:36 -!- karpar [n=chatzill@116.21.67.34] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:05:59 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:29 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:12:26 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 03:12:30 ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:15 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:15:54 spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 03:23:42 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:25:28 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-151-147.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:25:57 -!- poet [n=tim@64.198.227.149] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:26:11 poet [n=tim@64.198.227.149] has joined #lisp 03:26:13 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:26:25 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 03:26:32 -!- poet [n=tim@64.198.227.149] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:27:35 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 03:31:10 poet [n=tim@64.198.227.149] has joined #lisp 03:33:21 -!- milanj [n=milan@cable-89-216-113-6.static.sbb.rs] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:34:04 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 03:36:55 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:01 miravalh [n=Alex@pc-22-168-160-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:51 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@dhcp180-24.residence.usherb.ca] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:38:07 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:ccb7:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:41:37 kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@ptio.kim-minh.com] has joined #lisp 03:44:57 -!- miravalh [n=Alex@pc-22-168-160-190.cm.vtr.net] has left #lisp 03:45:09 miravalh [n=Alex@pc-22-168-160-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:09 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:56 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-205.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:03 auclairb [n=auclairb@206.167.180.24] has joined #lisp 03:54:25 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:37 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:54:39 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 03:57:26 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 03:57:40 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:45 -!- miravalh [n=Alex@pc-22-168-160-190.cm.vtr.net] has left #lisp 03:57:48 miravalh [n=Alex@pc-22-168-160-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:21 -!- miravalh [n=Alex@pc-22-168-160-190.cm.vtr.net] has left #lisp 04:00:00 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-189.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 04:00:45 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:50 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:00:57 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 04:01:06 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:01:16 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 04:02:44 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-200-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:03:07 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 04:05:22 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:20 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:07:34 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 04:09:41 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:14 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:15:21 Anyone want to help me out with sb-unix:unix-select (or something of the sort)? 04:16:36 something of the sort would be iolib: http://www.cliki.net/IOlib 04:18:26 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:29 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:18:52 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:19:50 ayrnieu: I see the main webpage talk about an I/O multiplexer, but I'm not seeing it... 04:20:46 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:44 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 04:25:04 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:27:33 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 04:34:20 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:35:28 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:42:46 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:42:52 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:50 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:23 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:44:45 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has joined #lisp 04:45:34 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@206.167.180.24] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:45:50 SeveredCross [n=bojanr@about/csharp/regular/severedcross] has joined #lisp 04:47:55 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:48:33 heh, here's a footnote from the 'anti-CL' book: Scheme and Common Lisp differ mostly in the communities they cater to. Scheme programmers like to talk about how great it is to have a short specification; Common Lisp programmers like to write programs. 04:48:58 Hi everyone. Trying to learn LISP, and trying to play around with implementing the tetration function--getting some issues with clisp complaining that (setf x 0) isn't a lambda. Pastebinned at http://monoport.com/39512 04:49:32 <_3b> too many ( 04:49:35 SeveredCross: I imagine you're familiar with programming already? 04:49:41 sykopomp: Fairly, yes. 04:49:51 minion: please tell SeveredCross about pcl 04:49:52 SeveredCross: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 04:50:08 Thanks, I'll read up. 04:50:13 SeveredCross: you can probably start by using LET, too. 04:50:18 <_3b> also, you don't need RETURN at the end of a function 04:50:29 SeveredCross, well, you wrote ((SETF X 0) ...), and (SETF X 0) does not designate a function, but you told Lisp to apply it as if it did designate a function. 04:50:35 That's what ((SETF X 0) ...) means. 04:50:47 So why do you want to apply (SETF X 0) as if it were a function? 04:50:48 severed - the error comes from this form that you try to evaluate: ((setf x 0) (setf result a) ...) 04:51:00 Ah, I see. So, when you start to define the body of a function for defun, you don't need to separate it with ()'s. 04:51:03 Got it. 04:51:45 Each parenthesis means something. 04:52:53 Got it. 04:53:19 I'm still fairly green w/ LISP, my proficiency is almost entirely in C-like languages, but I've started to build a budding interest in functional techniques. 04:53:35 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:54:00 SeveredCross: if you're looking for a functional language, you'll be pretty disappointed with Lisp. 04:54:39 Lisp is plenty functional enough 04:54:42 it's not pure though 04:55:33 Scheme and common-lisp are procedural. 04:56:13 <_3b> a pure functional lang might be better for learning the style, even if CL would be preferable for actually using it :) 04:56:19 scheme is more functional than CL 04:56:25 or at least 04:56:32 it encourages a more functional style 04:57:11 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:15 There's nothing wrong with procedures, as long as you understand what they are. 04:57:32 Hmm. Interesting. I'm mostly learning CL on a suggestion from a programmer friend who's also a functional fan. 04:57:34 the people chasing FP don't notice Scheme's call/cc or CL's array of macros. 04:58:08 Severed: Well, CL and scheme both support a functional style of programming, using procedures. 04:58:23 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:30 Severed: Both encourage programming that avoids gratuitous side-effects. 05:00:41 recapitulating what I said 10 lines ago... 05:00:50 it's functional enough 05:05:01 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:48 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:05:59 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-130-203.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:12 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 05:06:17 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:07:27 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:07:35 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:08:25 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:36 Hooray, got it. 05:09:41 Using let and dotimes. :) 05:09:49 congrats :) 05:09:57 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:39 jfactor [n=john@student164-112.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 05:12:54 -!- eno_ is now known as eno__ 05:13:02 okay, so I could use some general armchair feedback. My current generic function model allows for variable-length lambda lists. Meaning, you can have a method that specializes on a single item in one case, or 3 items in another, and looks at all its arguments when dispatching. There are three downsides to this: 1. no useful info in slime when writing a method call, 2. no &key/&optional/&rest, 3. might be confusing. 05:13:34 Having variable-length lambda lists seemed neat at first, but I don't know if they're worth running into those problems, and I can't really see how they would actually be useful. 05:13:49 any thoughts before I dig through all my code and rewrite half of it? :-\ 05:14:19 it annoys me that I have to tell READ what it should return on EOF , just to tell it to be recursive. 05:14:56 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.181] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:15:16 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 05:16:16 Clojure has (defmulti some-function dispatch-fn) , where dispatch-fn take a list of arguments to some-function and then returns a value that is used as a hash key for the real function, which you can add at any time with (defmethod some-function key ...) 05:17:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/74647 # defmulti examples 05:17:13 oooh... 05:18:03 -!- eno is now known as eno__ 05:18:25 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:19:12 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 05:19:44 ayrnieu: do you have an example of how that works for multimethods? 05:20:01 besides the defmulti examples link? 05:20:39 I guess I don't really understand how that is making to-string dispatch on all arguments 05:23:04 (defmulti add (fn [a b] [(class a) (class b)])) 05:23:26 (defmethod add [Integer Integer] [a b] (+ a b)) (defmethod add [String String] [a b] (str a b)) , etc. 05:23:29 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:01 ah alright 05:24:11 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 05:25:16 can you have something like (defmethod add [Integer Integer Integer] [a b c] (+ a b c)) ? 05:25:22 using the same defmulti definition, that is. 05:25:28 yes. 05:25:51 (defmulti add (fn [& args] (map class args))) 05:25:51 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:09 then you can methods that dispatch off [Integer] , [] , [Integer Integer String] , etc. 05:27:12 hmmmmm... does Clojure have the equivalent of &key, &body, etc, and can it use it in defmulti definitions? 05:27:56 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-240-176-62.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:28:14 [& args] gets all of the arguments. It can destructure the arguments to some extent. 05:28:32 (apply hash-map args) is useful for some cases of &key 05:29:41 interesting... thank you, I think I have an idea :. 05:29:44 :) 05:32:01 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-158-55.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:03 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:40:06 sz0 [n=sz@88.235.134.75] has joined #lisp 05:41:02 -!- p4r0l3 [n=par0le@unaffiliated/par0le] has left #lisp 05:42:08 -!- sz0 [n=sz@88.235.134.75] has left #lisp 05:42:33 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:44:25 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:46:08 runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 05:46:11 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:33 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 05:55:26 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:59:50 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 05:59:54 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 06:01:44 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 06:02:55 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:56 -!- runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:19:52 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 06:25:19 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:25:47 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 06:29:19 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 06:31:06 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:34:47 runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 06:37:05 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 06:38:20 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 06:38:23 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:38:49 lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has joined #lisp 06:40:21 -!- Martinp23 [i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:40:32 Good morning. 06:40:44 mornin' beach 06:41:22 Hello 06:42:31 What did I miss? 06:42:58 w4g3n3r [n=brian@75-132-43-231.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:43:14 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:43:43 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:43:53 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[away] 06:44:25 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:55 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:47:51 -!- w4g3n3r [n=brian@75-132-43-231.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #lisp 06:51:36 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:51:43 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:46 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:00:13 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 07:03:06 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.156.158] has joined #lisp 07:04:31 OPEN-X-STREAM not implemented yet. (in clx/windows) 07:08:57 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:45 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:12:57 can any one tell me whether i can solve this (setf d (xlib:open-display "")) says OPEN-X-STREAM not implemented yet 07:15:35 Ogedei [n=user@e178244159.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:26 -!- runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:23:42 i don't know, but did you try using something like "localhost:0" instead of ""? 07:24:52 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-147-62.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:08 -!- psyllo [n=user@67-42-125-229.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:26:25 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:26:48 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:20 runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 07:31:39 H4ns: getting same error 07:33:07 well, you'll need to either wait for xof and hope that he is in the mood or look into the source. i guess looking into the source before hoping for xof's mood will help improving the latter 07:35:30 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:40:55 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 07:41:06 -!- xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:43:15 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:51:47 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:57 good morning 07:52:50 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:52:54 -!- dont [n=dont@94.27.113.143] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:54:39 -!- jfactor [n=john@student164-112.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:16 dont [n=dont@94.27.113.143] has joined #lisp 07:59:05 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 08:00:41 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 08:04:19 -!- lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 08:06:42 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 08:06:54 lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has joined #lisp 08:07:18 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:45 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:10:50 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c133-93.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:11:52 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:12:21 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:13:12 hello mvilleneuve 08:13:18 [and good morning everyone] 08:15:43 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:16:38 -!- runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:18:24 tcr1 [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:22:12 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:29 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:23:55 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 08:25:07 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:26 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-218-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:37 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:27:34 'morning 08:30:21 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:30:50 -!- archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:31:13 archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:41 runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 08:40:09 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:16 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 08:41:24 lispm [n=joswig@e177156171.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:56 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:44:05 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 08:45:43 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:45:56 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F602.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:07 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 08:46:36 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C7BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:46:38 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 08:46:55 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:49:47 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 08:50:44 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:56:20 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has joined #lisp 08:57:07 free_tinker [n=willijar@eas-nw709pc01.aston.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:57:23 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 08:57:29 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-205.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:59:31 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:59:33 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:00:04 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 09:00:08 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 09:00:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:22 Martinp23 [i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23] has joined #lisp 09:02:56 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:03:03 -!- iskander_ [n=iskander@kovu.foxxz.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:06:33 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:07:00 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 09:08:08 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:41 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 09:18:23 -!- runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:21:30 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 09:21:44 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 09:25:22 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:26:21 runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 09:34:24 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-148-90.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:46:36 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:48:19 -!- mun [n=mchan@host86-147-40-157.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:49:09 mr_uggla_ [i=mzsillan@melkinpaasi.cs.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 09:50:51 -!- mr_uggla [i=mzsillan@melkinpaasi.cs.helsinki.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:53:17 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-135-209.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 09:55:26 -!- jao [n=jao@220.Red-81-32-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:55:35 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 09:55:53 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:45 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 09:59:12 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:59:55 toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:44 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:05:54 -!- hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:06:02 Beket [n=stathis@ppp16-146.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 10:06:27 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:10:04 Haplo [n=ihatchon@194.2.150.245] has joined #lisp 10:10:04 -!- Maddas [n=Maddas@tardis-b23.ee.ethz.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:10:37 Haplo: hello there! 10:10:53 mvilleneuve: hi 10:14:11 -!- totzeit [n=user@dsl102.zipcon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:14:21 hi all 10:14:31 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:16:04 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 10:16:09 -!- Haplo [n=ihatchon@194.2.150.245] has quit ["Quitte"] 10:16:13 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 10:16:23 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:36 Haplo [n=ihatchon@194.2.150.245] has joined #lisp 10:17:00 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-133.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:17:42 -!- runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:12 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:52 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:23:21 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 10:25:46 kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has joined #lisp 10:25:57 runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 10:26:25 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:08 -!- KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:28:24 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:32:30 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-254-61-64.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:33:00 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:46 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-254-61-64.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:17 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB!"] 10:36:32 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D11B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:04 hello Haplo, long time no see! 10:38:10 [and g'day everyone] 10:38:29 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:38:53 hello spiaggia 10:40:29 gosh, it's like old times 10:45:30 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:32 It is! 10:46:02 Now we just need moore33, gilberth, and danb. 10:47:17 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:49:14 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 10:49:36 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 10:57:59 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-218-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:59:55 spiaggia: have you tried the new! improved! keyboard-focus mcclim? 11:00:52 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-254-61-64.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:02:30 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:02:37 -!- younder [n=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 11:05:43 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 11:10:02 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 11:13:19 -!- runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:13:23 -!- jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 11:14:12 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:26 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 11:16:10 mega1 [n=mega@53d82584.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:16:22 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:18:05 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:21:50 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:23:02 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:25:00 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:25:39 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:30:50 Haplo_ [n=ihatchon@194.2.150.245] has joined #lisp 11:30:50 -!- Haplo [n=ihatchon@194.2.150.245] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:31:16 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:22 -!- tcr1 [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 11:34:07 Xof: I guess I haven't! I should do an update. 11:37:18 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has joined #lisp 11:39:19 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:37 what is the most efficient way to return the contents of a file as a single string? read-sequence? this is for the purpose of indexing the file with montezuma. 11:42:58 If you know the length, yes. 11:43:13 Otherwise why not use read-line and concatenate? 11:44:27 i really wanna gulp it in, but i'm afraid LENGTH might choke on utf-8 files 11:44:34 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 11:45:57 Well, length doesn't operate on files. 11:46:36 How large is the file? 11:47:17 i meant file-length; the files are a few tens in number, each two screen fulls of html, which i'm running through html2text first 11:47:37 In other words, they are extremly tiny? 11:49:11 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:50:35 yes. but i'm scratching my head why read-sequence isn't reading my files, even when i specify an arbitrary :end of 10 11:51:54 i'm hoping to write an :after method for my CMS's update functions, so I can have new content add to the system AND have my full-text search index updated at the same time 11:52:06 added 11:53:22 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:54:02 runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 11:55:28 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:29 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:55:36 fusss [n=chatzill@70.179.113.121] has joined #lisp 11:56:15 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 11:58:11 Are you giving read-sequence a type compatible with that of the file? 11:58:23 r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-67-147-177.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:58:34 agz [n=mate@225-36.adsl.etel.hu] has joined #lisp 11:59:39 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:00:38 read-sequence doesn't take an :element-type argument 12:02:13 (with-open-file (file "index.txt") (let ((seq nil)) (read-sequence seq file :start 0 :end (* (file-length file) 2)) or some such arbitrary upper limit. returns nil, always 12:02:18 sequence in which it reads takes 12:02:46 forgot to return seq 12:03:06 so I should be calling make-sequence on seq before use? 12:03:36 fuss - yes you need to allocate sufficient storage 12:04:12 Hi, I have 2gb ram but sbcl uses only 5% of it(as top says). How can I set sbcl to use more? :O 12:04:48 got it! make-string did it 12:05:08 agz: don't worry, sbcl _will_ use more ;-) 12:06:09 Yes -- you need to give it a compatible type of sequence. 12:07:16 agz: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Runtime-Options.html#Runtime-Options 12:09:06 fusss: thx! I couldn't find .) 12:09:12 nikki93 [n=nikki@78.101.165.253] has joined #lisp 12:09:17 Hey guys! 12:10:40 I'm a hobbyist programmer, and usually work on graphics programs and games in C++. I have a pretty good framework set up in C++ already. Recently I've been reading about and trying Lisp, and I find it quite awesome. Especially the regular syntax and clean ideas. I was thinking about using it as an embedded scripting language for games made in C++. Whaddya guys think? Is Lisp good for that? :) 12:11:31 ECL seems a good option. Most other C-lisps I see are Scheme. I'm more familiar with Common Lisp as of now. 12:12:01 'C-lisp' as in, Lisp interpretter in C. 12:12:41 clisp may or may not work as well 12:12:54 I don't know how embeddable it is 12:13:14 but it's written in C 12:13:16 nikki93: if you use CLISP, you will have to give it control over your game loop. it doesn't play nice as a library. 12:13:30 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 12:13:37 Adamant: all common lisps are written in C and Lisp 12:13:58 Nate75Sanders [n=Nate75Sa@cpe-76-88-156-88.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:13:59 fusss: I thought there were common lisps written in pure Lisp 12:14:05 compiled to machine code 12:14:11 fusss: What I'd like to do is have the actual game written in C++ but use Lisp for 'moddability', if you get me. 12:14:16 ECL seems a good option for that. 12:14:53 nikki93: like an scripting engine, yeah, you can use ecl for that 12:15:32 it's not gonna be as easy as embedding lua, tcl or php though 12:15:32 Thanks. ;-) 12:15:40 Oh. 12:16:01 But Lisp is awesome enough for it to be worth it. 12:16:27 Do people still use guile? 12:16:38 nikki93: play with it 12:16:58 Nate75Sanders: It's scheme. 12:17:08 nikki93: yes, i'm aware 12:17:15 k 12:17:40 nikki93: just mentioned it because fuss mentioned lua, tcl, etc 12:17:41 nikki93: try calling some of your c++ code from lisp with cffi and see how you like it 12:23:43 -!- runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:23:44 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 12:24:40 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:30 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp16-146.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:26:44 Maddas [n=Maddas@tardis-b23.ee.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 12:29:40 ironChicken [n=richard@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 12:30:09 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:32:05 knobo [n=user@148.122.202.247] has joined #lisp 12:33:40 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:34:06 Would it be a good idea to track the location of definitions in the listener in slime? 12:34:14 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:34:58 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:35:20 Put a marker on every definition in the emacs-buffer, and refer to it in the location information. 12:35:50 So when you press M-. you jump to the defenition in the emacs buffer. 12:37:36 you can search input history for the definition 12:37:55 so in lispworks (dspec:location) would return (:listener 'markername) 12:38:07 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:39:05 xristos: ofcourse I can search. So we don't need xref, we can just grep in the .lisp files. 12:39:22 knobo its not really the same thing 12:40:01 auclairb [n=auclairb@dhcp180-24.residence.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 12:40:10 ehmm. I have a better ide. It should refer to the location in the slime-repl history. 12:40:25 As the buffer can be cleand out. 12:40:50 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:15 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:42:26 Then after testing in a repl for a while, you open a new file/buffer, and press some magic key-combo that pulls the latest defenitions from the listener. 12:42:40 and inserts it in to the file. 12:43:35 write it in the file in the first place 12:44:38 Yes I could. Then I can just load the file in the lisp. Actualy I don't need the repl. 12:44:46 adityo_ [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 12:45:30 no 12:46:06 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:47:14 -!- agz [n=mate@225-36.adsl.etel.hu] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:47:37 LW ide doesn't show results for me when i evaluate a form in the editor 12:48:20 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:49:15 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:49:36 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:52:56 younder [n=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 12:53:16 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 12:54:06 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:34 -!- r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-67-147-177.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["*.*"] 13:01:47 -!- sohum [n=sohum@burgmann181.anu.edu.au] has left #lisp 13:04:11 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:05:26 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 13:05:30 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:06:06 plage [n=user@salle204.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 13:06:10 Good afternoon! 13:06:32 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-204-206.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 13:07:02 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:10:01 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:11:58 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:13:00 tabb0t [n=tabb0t@122.172.120.70] has joined #lisp 13:14:28 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@mx.lurk.org] has left #lisp 13:14:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@70.179.113.121] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:15:04 -!- tabb0t [n=tabb0t@122.172.120.70] has quit [Client Quit] 13:16:07 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:40 LostMonarch [n=roby@host136-154-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:18:41 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:47 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:21:27 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:37 lyte [n=lyte@60-242-109-30.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:23:01 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:23:21 tabb0t [n=tabb0t@122.172.120.70] has joined #lisp 13:23:44 -!- tabb0t [n=tabb0t@122.172.120.70] has left #lisp 13:25:55 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-218-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:14 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:30:50 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:30:59 Haplo_: so are you working on any Lisp project these days? 13:31:20 less than more 13:31:23 but yes 13:31:39 I got some pings on cldoc from Martin 13:31:40 for work, or just hobby programming? 13:31:53 and from Joshua Taylor 13:32:05 Haplo_: That's good. 13:32:05 I'm fixing few bugs in eclipse 13:32:29 And as well 13:32:38 fat work 13:32:45 at work 13:33:47 Boy, this lab class is *so* boring! The students never ask for any help! 13:34:06 ah ? 13:34:07 The only reason I can stand it is that I get paid. 13:34:29 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:29 you sound less patient than before 13:34:45 question of age I guess :) 13:35:14 na ;) 13:36:07 is there anyone from clnet hanging around at the moment ? 13:36:11 plage: give them harder problems 13:36:32 stassats: excellent idea! 13:36:33 stassats`: They are pretty hard though, at least to our students. 13:37:42 stassats`: The topic of today is the standard method combination used to obtain memoization. 13:38:07 Next time it is reader macros 13:38:09 *stassats`* himself doesn't actually like to ask help from teachers 13:38:50 sounds like advanced topics. 13:39:39 standard method combination to obtain memoization = hash parameters to return value in a :around method? 13:39:59 that's how I'd do it, but it's probably not efficient for whatever reason. 13:40:25 toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:46 -!- lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 13:41:54 lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has joined #lisp 13:43:11 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@dhcp180-24.residence.usherb.ca] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:43:24 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:43:48 plage: as said, it sounds like fun advanced topics :) I'd like to be there :) 13:44:12 tic_: more like adding a slot to a class storing the result of an existing generic function by adding an :around method specialized on the top-level class. 13:44:16 rather than implementing a mini CL vm using midp2 on mobile phones ;) 13:44:24 Ouch! 13:46:10 -!- flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:46:56 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:20 splittist [n=splittis@47-50.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:47:24 morning 13:48:32 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-87.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:49:49 hello splittist 13:52:06 miravalh [n=Alex@pc-22-168-160-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:52 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 13:55:40 -!- segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1F87F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:19 segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1CC39.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:33 yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:58:12 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:02:25 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:04:04 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:38 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 14:08:09 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:08:25 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:08:31 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:32 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 14:09:18 -!- Ogedei [n=user@e178244159.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:29 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-43.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:09:33 -!- miravalh [n=Alex@pc-22-168-160-190.cm.vtr.net] has left #lisp 14:11:38 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:12:49 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 14:12:49 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:12:59 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:12 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:49 Not only is the lab boring, but #lisp as well. 14:17:10 *splittist* thy name is inconstancy 14:17:21 I'm now seriously considering attending ILC09 14:17:54 What made you change your mind? 14:17:59 Although I still think it would be better if they just had the Progam Committee chatting on stage for 4 days... 14:18:17 plage: cosmic rays? 14:18:28 proximity to CERN? 14:18:37 -!- yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:18:46 Either of those could indeed be the cause. 14:19:27 I realised that the dates are not as bad as I had thought. And I can kind of tie some of the trip to work. 14:20:49 I kind of should go, because I have been telling Americans I wouldn't go while the previous administration was in place. Now I have no excuse. 14:21:02 _3b: turns out that "adl -nodebug" in really faster than "adl", by a factor of two for my benchmark. Still much slower than the Java benchmark though. 14:21:06 But I really can't. That perioud is way to busy. 14:21:20 *period 14:21:46 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:48 miravalh [n=alex@pc-22-168-160-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:24 *plage* takes a coffee break 14:24:30 -!- miravalh [n=alex@pc-22-168-160-190.cm.vtr.net] has left #lisp 14:24:32 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:25:34 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:28:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 14:28:54 hello 14:29:56 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 14:30:06 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:30:22 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:30:58 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:32:13 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 14:34:05 hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 14:34:22 -!- hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has left #lisp 14:35:19 borism [n=boris@195-50-211-18-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:36:42 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D11B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:38:51 ajcc [n=ajcc@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:35 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:40:34 hello fe[nl]ix 14:41:23 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:41:36 ho fe[nl]ix 14:44:15 I tried browsing cll with Google Groups yesterday. Still seemed unusable. 14:49:21 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 14:52:37 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:53:33 -!- whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:53:55 whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has joined #lisp 14:55:25 -!- technik [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:55:56 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:55:58 -!- whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has quit [Client Quit] 14:56:11 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 14:58:19 Does anyone have any recommendations to parallel and/or concurrent common lisp implementations? I've found Erlisp (not done), NetCLOS (uses non-free Allegro) and ParGCL (seems to work, uses GCL and MPI). But I can't (with my knowleage) tell which one to choose, if any. So any recommendations? I'm confused and lost :( 14:59:53 whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has joined #lisp 14:59:53 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has joined #lisp 14:59:54 tsuru [n=user@66.199.17.194] has joined #lisp 15:00:10 do you like threads? 15:03:07 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:04:06 does threads scale well? it should run over a pvm type of system, using the unused computers in classrooms. I might be confusing it with something else, but I remember from somewhere that threads work best on smp systems. With a small amount of cores. 15:04:45 if you're using multiple machines, then threads alone will not do you 15:06:22 i think ajcc is really looking for something higher-level than threads 15:06:39 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:08:25 MPI is a cross-machine thing 15:09:02 cl-muproc? philip jose? 15:09:10 <_death> I once used lpvm, which provides lisp bindings for pvm 15:09:38 _death: can you describe your usocket patch? i've committed it, but i did so more or less blindly. 15:10:01 fusss: I though philip jose was just a game, with some interesting distributed programming examples in i 15:10:56 hello plage, splittist :) 15:10:58 anyway, I'm reading about those three examples 15:11:01 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 15:11:30 http://www.cliki.net/pcall http://www.cliki.net/ddist 15:11:34 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 15:11:42 The simple answer is that threads don't scale :) 15:11:49 ajcc: i'm interested to know the results as well 15:12:31 Zhivago: I've heard that one too, but never the rest of the answer 15:12:48 ajcc: look at pcall 15:14:12 http://ddist.sourceforge.net/example1.html 15:15:40 ajcc: Main problem is that threads make all data potentially contentious, and most implementations require conservatively large chunks of stack. 15:15:41 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-65.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:51 <_death> H4ns: well, it now returns, like the docstring says, a list of sockets (even if you pass it a socket rather than a list), and the _right_ list of sockets. the original code didn't make any sense at all.. to me at least. oh, and the docstring doesn't mention READY-ONLY (though it describes what happens when READY-ONLY is true, but not false). 15:16:07 More subtle issue is that threads are a conflation of co-routines and multiprocessors. 15:16:42 Usually you really want one of those, so it's best to figure that out. 15:16:56 _death: ok, thanks! if ehu asks, i'll know what to respond now. 15:17:49 fusss: I wonder if it can see the slaves itself, or even try another one if the first one fail, or all of them 15:18:06 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 15:18:26 ajcc: dunno, i just had them in thought because i'm messing with fastcgi atm 15:18:43 <_death> H4ns: k.. I'm here if there are any questions ;) 15:18:53 -!- lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 15:19:23 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:50 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 15:20:30 hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 15:20:52 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:20:59 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 15:21:48 fusss: pcall seems very interesting :) very accepting against failing nodes and slow machines 15:22:14 fusss: it's functions are simple but elegant 15:26:11 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:02 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:31:38 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 15:35:48 jfactor [n=john@student164-184.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 15:36:41 Only 15 minutes left of this boring lab class. Then I'll be on vacation! 15:39:51 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-84-44-143-136.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:40:44 r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-21-198.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:42:02 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:42:33 -!- ehird is now known as ehird|away 15:42:47 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 15:42:50 -!- ehird|away is now known as ehird 15:44:22 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-84-44-143-136.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:44:31 -!- plage [n=user@salle204.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has left #lisp 15:45:42 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-65.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:46:03 schme [n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:49:54 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:50:41 evenin' 15:51:17 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:02 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-141.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:52:12 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-218-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:53:09 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:55:56 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-65.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:18 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #lisp 16:00:55 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:00:56 willb [n=wibenton@wireless108.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:03:33 Beket [n=stathis@ppp1-71.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:03:39 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-24-41.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:05:40 caio 16:05:50 -!- splittist [n=splittis@47-50.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["didn't mean to 'say' that"] 16:08:16 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D11B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:20 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:35 nullman [n=nullman@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:55 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14:08 msphix_ [n=msphix@aapr125.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:15:52 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 16:17:30 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:39 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 16:19:06 Is learning elisp (the basics) going to help much when I want to do things with lisp? 16:19:08 Normal clisp? 16:19:29 as in, will elisp teach me any sort of.. bad habits, or assumptions (beyond the obvious that its for emacs) 16:20:32 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 16:21:06 "clisp" is the name of one specific implementation of common lisp, so it's better to avoid using the word when referring to the language 16:21:25 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:21:34 ok. 16:21:37 evening ppls 16:22:08 and the combined effort of learning elisp and then cl won't be less than that of just learning cl 16:22:39 running two different versions of hunchentoot on one box not a the same time...? 16:22:57 on the other hand, elisp is obviously useful in itself, if you plan on playing with emacs a lot 16:23:01 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:22 I am using sbl and the one version I got through clbuild and that works ..the other I got of a svn repository but I dont know hopw to load that version using REQUIRE 16:23:27 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 16:23:38 that was sbcl 16:23:47 cmm: I thought they would be near enough similar? 16:23:48 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:24:15 jsoft: they are similar, but elisp is not a proper subset of cl 16:24:44 are they even particularly similar? 16:24:51 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has quit [] 16:25:01 the whole scoping thing would seem to be a glaring difference 16:25:04 jsoft: also, the lack of some things in elisp (like lexical scoping, proper loop macro, etc.) encourages some habits that are not useful in cl 16:25:21 no proper character type, either 16:25:36 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:47 G'morning all. 16:26:40 cmm: what would those habits be? Some kind of workaround? 16:26:58 cmm: some would argue that CL doesn't have a proper loop macro 16:27:14 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 16:27:17 blasphemy! 16:27:23 *rsynnott* likes the loop marco 16:27:26 *macro 16:28:12 hi nyef 16:28:36 I use it all the time, but I still hate it. Something about having it guaranteed to be there is a huge draw. 16:29:22 jsoft: the nature of many fundamental language features is such that when you miss them, you cannot quite know what you are missing :) 16:30:21 Hmm :) 16:30:54 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:02 -!- sphix [n=msphix@aaox218.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:01 Is it common to use lisp to do things like.. parse logs, manage apache vhost configs, and things that perl might be commonly used for in sysadmin land? 16:32:14 Or is it more if a larger project kind of thing? 16:32:19 jsoft: it's not common to use lisp :p 16:32:41 it's fairly easy to do so, though 16:34:02 So piping and parsing and all that jazz is not too tricky? 16:34:18 or counter-intuitive? 16:34:23 *rsynnott* personally avoids apache vhost configs like the plague 16:34:28 jsoft: the cl-ppcre library makes it a lot easier 16:34:41 jsoft: piping is not intuitive in common lisp by default. 16:34:50 jsoft: you would probably not want to use lisp apps as bits of a chain of pipes 16:34:54 though I suppose you can do it 16:34:55 *dlowe* wouldn't say it was intuitive in perl either 16:35:29 for pipe handling, scsh is propably better than cl 16:36:05 scsh 16:36:13 is that some kind of lisp shell? 16:36:19 right 16:36:46 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3927.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:19 dlowe pasted "scriptish lisp code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75859 16:37:52 pitui` [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #lisp 16:37:59 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 16:38:42 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-101-123.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 16:39:14 dlowe: is that your script? 16:39:21 jsoft: yeah 16:39:36 Hmm :) 16:39:40 *jsoft* trys 16:39:47 oh wiat 16:39:53 im not on bsd atm :( 16:40:12 Weird, using emacs in windows is strange 16:40:26 it wouldn't matter. you don't know what input file it takes and you almost certainly don't have the xml library 16:40:35 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:40:38 I gotta say, the format specifiers for Lisp are one of the weirdest things out there. 16:40:59 They make sense, but they're odd. 16:41:27 BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:29 because %g is the most obvious specifier for a double float 16:41:41 Yeah, some of the C ones don't make sense. 16:41:59 But %s and %d and %f make sense, and I think part of the reason they don't seem odd is because nearly everyone uses them. 16:42:49 SeveredCross: I may be remembering wrongly (haven't used C seriously for a few years) but doesn't %d, say, break on 64bit numbers? 16:42:58 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D11B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:10 rsynnott: I don't remember, never seen it happen. 16:43:20 there's certainly some 64bit data type for which you must use a weird generally system-specific format specifier 16:44:22 -!- ajcc [n=ajcc@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["leaving"] 16:44:26 rsynnott: under a 64-bit os, no. if you want 64-bit ints on a 32-bit system, you typically have to use %lld or %llu 16:45:07 ah, that's the one, yep 16:45:18 or %Ld on some systems :p 16:46:06 <_dima_> C99 standardized most of that stuff. %lld survived, and %jd for intmax_t is the new sane way 16:47:41 <_dima_> (actually i think %lld is not C99; %ld or %jd) 16:48:42 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:50:56 FSVO sane 16:52:33 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:56 format as a replacement for printf is fine 16:54:09 the... weird little format language is not so fine 16:54:17 in that it verges on read-only 16:57:08 does anyone here know on which day the ilc banquet will take place? 16:57:29 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:58:10 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:16 [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.62] has joined #lisp 16:59:50 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:00:53 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:00:59 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:06 -!- nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:06 How do you make (format t ...) output a newline after its output? 17:02:13 I tried adding \n but that didn't seem to do it. 17:02:15 <_death> ~% 17:02:25 Ah, thanks. 17:02:38 Yep, there we go. 17:03:52 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-84-44-143-136.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:05:02 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-84-44-143-136.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:05:38 for extra confusion try erlang, where format is lisp-like, except with different letters in the identifiers and no scary minilanguage; also \n has made a triumphant return 17:05:39 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:06:29 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:06:30 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 17:06:36 guille_ [n=guille_@4.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:52 Erlang has got to be one of the most hyped languages out there 17:07:15 josemanuel [n=josemanu@194.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:09:02 ahem. Arc 17:09:14 (which seems to have quietly vanished, by the way) 17:09:14 ciao 17:09:20 -!- Haplo_ [n=ihatchon@194.2.150.245] has quit ["Quitte"] 17:09:38 rsynnott: how has it vanished? 17:09:47 I think Arc is more hyped... Erlang at least started to get the hype _after_ it had been used/tested/deployed xD 17:09:51 Arc seems to be chugging along. 17:10:15 Maybe I'm reading the wrong places. 17:10:17 H4ns: http://www.arclanguage.org/forum 17:10:23 (note the dates) 17:10:42 erlang, yes, at least turns out to be rather useful in certain limited areas 17:10:50 -!- froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:11:21 I'm just seeing a ton of Erlang articles on the programming reddit, which is probably a bad judge of hype-factor. 17:14:02 toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:19 rsynott: Look in the comments. 17:15:24 -!- dont [n=dont@94.27.113.143] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:15:31 it's great if you have lots and lots of users doing rather uninteresting things, which must effect other users 17:15:39 *rsynnott* worked on just such a system, in erlang 17:17:00 dwave [n=ask@062249178204.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 17:18:11 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:18:51 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:18 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:19:25 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp1-71.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:19:43 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:21:41 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:25:30 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:25:45 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-84-44-143-136.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:26:02 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:01 -!- free_tinker [n=willijar@eas-nw709pc01.aston.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:28:06 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F3F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:16 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 17:30:50 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:32:38 spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 17:38:18 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:38:58 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:42:14 -!- BrianRice-mb_ is now known as BrianRice 17:43:58 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-059-217.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:35 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 17:44:45 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:46 hmm, what extension should I use with slime and sbcl? 17:47:12 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@4.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:29 ahh nvm 17:49:39 sbahra [n=sbahra@161.253.156.110] has joined #lisp 17:49:58 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@194.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 17:50:38 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 17:53:53 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:57:05 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit ["Stopping IRC chat... [OK]"] 17:57:07 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-65.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:57:34 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:58:20 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:58:25 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-65.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:33 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.8] has joined #lisp 18:00:36 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-135-209.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:01:19 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:44 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 18:02:18 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-157-10.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:02:21 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-84-44-143-136.netcologne.de] has quit [] 18:07:11 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 18:09:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 18:09:32 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:21 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:11:59 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:12:47 sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:43 -!- msphix_ [n=msphix@aapr125.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:13:52 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-254-61-64.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:52 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:01 -!- sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:14:37 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-87.static.vologda.ru] has quit [No route to host] 18:15:00 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:24 Hello Fare. 18:15:25 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:15:28 Davidbrcz_ [n=david@ANantes-151-1-8-32.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:15:29 nyef, hi! 18:15:34 blm next monday! 18:15:39 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-24-41.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:15:49 The 23rd? 18:15:55 jsnell: do CFASL include macroexpansion-time site effects? 18:16:10 nyef, the only next monday there is 18:16:15 Fair enough. 18:16:27 I just got the news about an hour ago that I might be able to be there. 18:16:33 woot! 18:16:41 if you want to speak, too :) 18:16:44 Might not, of course, but... 18:18:25 Don't you already have a speaker? 18:18:43 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:19:21 Haplo [n=hatchond@cau33-1-82-66-14-55.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:24 I do 18:19:51 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:21:00 two isn't bad, though 18:21:19 *Fare* notices the existence of sb-cltl2:compiler-let 18:21:45 I'll think about it. I still don't know that I'll be able to get there, though it is looking a bit likely. 18:22:28 I had a couple questions for you about some stuff in your Creationism to Evolutionism article. 18:22:49 nyef: you're going to get beat down by the topic police :D 18:23:04 nyef: yes? 18:23:27 dlowe: I mention Lisp at the end of the essay! :) 18:24:15 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:17 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.156.158] has quit ["<+mako132> "angry mob demands patience and compassion" # a headline not often seen"] 18:24:53 Basically if you had any concrete ideas or examples for building inductive-reasoning systems, and what sort of dialogue one could expect with such a system. 18:26:16 -!- dwave [n=ask@062249178204.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 18:26:52 This is basically the heart of what TUNES is about, isn't it? 18:27:23 not the heart, but one part that I'd like to build on top of it 18:27:46 there are many conferences at MIT these days about inductive learning 18:27:54 (are you on the seminars mailing-list?) 18:27:55 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 18:28:03 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-87.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 18:28:13 I'm not on the seminars mailing-list, no. 18:29:03 I'd say that the heart of TUNES would be the virtualization and verification infrastructure on top of which you can safely develop inductive actors whom you can trust to respect their contract. 18:30:15 Fare: Can the actors modify themselves? 18:31:18 Fare: why do you have to write so much ;_; 18:31:55 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:32:18 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 18:32:51 -!- nikki93 [n=nikki@78.101.165.253] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:33:36 nikki93 [n=nikki@78.101.240.184] has joined #lisp 18:34:50 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:42 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-3fde5fac3e491c73] has joined #lisp 18:35:57 p_l: actors have state 18:36:17 mathrick, because it takes even more time to say as much with fewer words 18:37:16 so you're optimizing the time for a single write when there are thousands of times more read operations? :D 18:37:24 Fare: you should still do it 18:37:36 and what dlowe says 18:38:31 on the other hand, the read operations are independently parallel, while the write operation consumes cpu on an already loaded processor 18:38:36 dlowe, well, if you and the thousand people are ready to transfer part of the resources you save when I compress the data, sure I'd do it. 18:38:56 but I'm a wimp and I won't put the investment upfront. 18:39:45 Mannerisky [n=Manneris@dyn026.wireless-104.ndsu.NoDak.edu] has joined #lisp 18:39:50 -!- Mannerisky [n=Manneris@dyn026.wireless-104.ndsu.NoDak.edu] has left #lisp 18:41:05 nikki93_ [n=nikki@78.101.108.39] has joined #lisp 18:42:01 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:42:22 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:28 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-205.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:02 -!- r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-21-198.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["*.*"] 18:49:01 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:51:17 -!- nikki93_ [n=nikki@78.101.108.39] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:51:59 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B5B8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:52:59 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 18:53:06 dwave [n=ask@062249178204.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 18:53:17 nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 18:53:22 -!- dwave [n=ask@062249178204.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:55:34 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:56:35 -!- nikki93 [n=nikki@78.101.240.184] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:35 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:59:43 -!- dfox [n=dfox@rb5cm232.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:59:43 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:03:06 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 19:08:32 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:02 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 19:09:55 jao [n=jao@220.Red-81-32-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:46 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-205.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:14:27 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:14:37 r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-21-198.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:14:42 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:14:45 -!- pkhuong_ is now known as pkhuong 19:15:32 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@161.253.156.110] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:15:52 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 19:16:06 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:16:18 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:17:02 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.8] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:19:27 puchacz_ [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:20:07 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:22:51 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:23:37 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:58 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:26:11 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3927.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:26:41 vy [n=user@88.224.71.107] has joined #lisp 19:34:35 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-133.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:38:51 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:39:25 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 19:40:05 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 19:43:30 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:43:35 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit ["beam me up scotty"] 19:44:54 htmlol [n=take@ool-457a3d2d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:17 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 19:46:07 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:16 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:46:33 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 19:46:51 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:51:42 When I re-compile lisp program which uses my own package, I get the error message like 'The name "xxx(my package name)" does not designate any package'. If I remove cached *.fasl files under /var/cache/common-lisp-controller/, it works fine. Why does this happen and how can I avoid this? 19:51:57 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:52:20 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:39 -!- htmlol [n=take@ool-457a3d2d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Not now John, I've got to get on with the film show."] 19:55:59 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:58:37 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:58:51 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:39 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-157-10.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:01:45 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3927.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:08 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:24 Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:46 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 20:04:00 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-159-123.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:04:41 tomoyuki: where's your defpackage statement? 20:05:02 hello Fare 20:05:11 do you use ASDF? Do you have dependencies on the package file? 20:05:14 fe[nl]ix, hi! 20:05:22 what news from iolib and pathnames? 20:05:43 (I'm making do with semi-portable ones for now) 20:05:45 none ATM 20:05:45 Hello again friends. I am still looking for someone to split a room for ILC09. Unfortunately it looks like that will involve a cot or couch, but at least it will be somewhat cheap! 20:06:18 Xach, there are hostels. 20:06:35 If it's for one night, I could have you on an inflatable mattress 20:06:49 Fare: according to fusss, the nearest one seemed to be 30 minutes from cambridge. 20:07:02 Fare: I am getting a hotel room. I would like to share it if possible. 20:07:02 there's a YMCA in Central Square 20:07:13 Xach: OK 20:07:22 Xach: would you speak at the March BLM? 20:07:37 Fare: I can't, sorry. 20:07:40 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:07:51 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 20:08:01 Xach: there's probably 3 of us heading over to cambridge from amherst, and we don't really have anywhere to stay. 20:08:13 Bribek [n=Bribek@0x573fd50a.cpe.ge-0-2-0-1104.arcnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:08:40 Fare: when's the march BLM? 20:08:42 sykopomp: it seems as though the official hotel has only rooms with one king bed in them now. 20:09:03 fe[nl]ix, what do you think about the plan "keep the pathnames in native format, i.e. raw char string under Unix" 20:09:05 Xach: we're used to crashing on floors. the whole convention thing and all. 20:09:16 sykopomp: if that's the case, I don't think I can help you out. but i have to call a real person at the hotel to find out. 20:09:18 (or raw UTF16 string or whatever under Windows) 20:09:45 sykopomp, inflatable mattresses are cheap, and WAY better than a floor 20:09:51 $30 at Target 20:10:02 Fare: yeah, I have one of those already, that's probably what I'd do. 20:10:07 Fare: ah, but what is native format for path strings on unix? :) 20:10:14 I suspect it depends on the UNIX 20:10:29 (and may involve the horrible UTF32 thing) 20:10:58 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:11:19 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:29 Isn't it a raw octet string on unix, not a raw char string? 20:12:17 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:00 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:22 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:21 Fare: I prefer deconding them with utf-8b as I said before 20:14:24 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:40 http://www.cliki.net/CloserLookAtCharacters What about unix file names? 20:15:20 totzeit [n=user@dsl102.zipcon.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:25 fe[nl]ix, the problem with decoding is that reencoding won't give you back the same thing! 20:16:36 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:16:49 so I read a filename from the directory, I try to open it, and BAM! file not found! 20:17:44 rsynnott, on most unices the native format is what the C library uses, i.e. 0-terminated arrays of 8-bit integers. 20:18:08 -!- iaindalton [n=user@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has left #lisp 20:18:09 nyef, yes, raw null-terminated octet string 20:18:09 Fare: lol, welcome to my world! I lost a whole day of wor tracking down that fact that DIRECTORY in sbcl will silently return NIL if any of the chars are not ascii and not encoded with *default-external-format* 20:18:30 drewc, my condoleances 20:18:42 you'll never get those hours of your life back. 20:18:51 no .. their gone :( 20:18:52 cross-implementation fun is also available if you have a unix file with "*" or "?" or "[" or "]" in the name 20:18:56 fe[nl]ix, utf-8b is not an option. 20:18:57 they're 20:19:02 *drewc* needs coffee 20:19:05 that will teach you to use naughty _foreign_ filenames 20:19:06 :) 20:19:15 Xach, no problem with that when you use the libc 20:19:30 Xach, if you want to filter at the application level, fine. 20:19:57 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:20:10 Xach, and escaping characters to transmit a filename to shell scripts is a well-known endeavour, too 20:20:10 Fare: I am talking about various Lisp applications. 20:20:18 i have one application that will work only if you use a string for the pathname. adding the #p will break it. 20:20:32 Xach, if they all use the same pathname library based on raw octet strings, no problem. 20:20:42 I am not talking about the future, but the present. 20:20:51 For example, CLISP's DIRECTORY will happily return pathnames it can't open. 20:20:58 Xach, portability of CLHS pathname is already impossible. But IOLIB can do better. 20:21:25 Fare: I suggest that you read the spec of UTF-8b. it's guaranteed to always produce the same octet sequence upon reencoding 20:21:26 the whole point is -- eschew unusable CLHS pathnames, use your own that work. 20:21:44 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has left #lisp 20:21:50 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:22:21 fe[nl]ix, where is the spec? 20:22:22 Fare: Sorry, I didn't aware of your message. This is the defpackage statement. http://github.com/tomoyuki28jp/web4r/blob/1d139e24b1483328cd5f9aaca708676c06bdb642/tests/package.lisp 20:22:48 marianoguerra [n=mariano@23-120-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 20:25:02 Fare: http://mail.nl.linux.org/linux-utf8/2000-07/msg00040.html 20:25:23 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:25:54 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:21 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:19 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-159-123.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:31:40 fe[nl]ix, if one of the encodings proposed by Markus is UTF-8B it's not clear which in this email 20:31:57 it's D) 20:32:02 I'm not sure I understand that. Would it translate invalid UTF-8 sequences into invalid UTF-16 sequences? 20:32:28 If so, how does that help with Lisp strings? 20:32:32 tomoyuki28jp, yes, but do the other files depend on this one? 20:33:27 tomoyuki28jp, you're missing either dependencies or :serial t in your asd file 20:33:44 Take CCL, which has 21 bit characters. There are no Lisp characters corresponding to invalid code points or surrogate code points. So you can't play games with invalid UTF-16 in Lisp strings on CCL. 20:33:59 sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:02 fe[nl]ix, but what sequences? besides, SBCL doesn't use UTF-16 20:34:08 -!- sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:34:57 fe[nl]ix, CLISP and SBCL will refuse to encode invalid characters of code > #x10FFFF 20:35:15 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:35:54 I really like the Mono approach of prefixing invalid bytes using zero. Would work on every Lisp. Easily recognizable in the listener. 20:36:33 Fare: I think I am missing :serial t in my asd file. Let me try that one. 20:37:43 the "native format" approach ensures (1) minimal surface for disagreement/mistakes in encoding, etc. (2) no need for codec roundtrips when reusing the same pathname between several syscalls (which is the whole point of the object after all). 20:38:39 lichtblau: why can't you use the surrogate code points in CCL? 20:38:48 if you want to use UTF8B or whatever by default when presenting the string to the user -- fine. 20:38:56 Fare: it's not that simple 20:39:00 but keep the damn string in native format. 20:39:12 why not? 20:39:13 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:40:01 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:01 Fare: It seems like it now works great. Thanks for your help! 20:40:13 Fare: because when the user of the library will want to append a string to that pathname, that string will have to be translated to octets 20:40:19 tomoyuki28jp, send paypal money to my email account :) 20:40:31 Fare: haha 20:40:33 Fare: you can't escape translation 20:41:01 1- you only need to translate at that point -- and you might only have to translate what's being appended. 20:41:03 so I prefer dealing with strings which makes for an easy to use API 20:41:24 or you can translate both ways, using whichever encoding the user requires 20:41:34 (which may or may not be UTF-8B by default) 20:42:08 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:42:49 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-205.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:51 fe[nl]ix, a good library to deal with octet "strings" is probably required at some point anyway. 20:45:04 housel: the main point of making characters correspond to UTF-32 codepoints in CCL is to avoid having to deal with surrogate pairs. 20:45:25 As interoperability with a lot of C libraries requires to arbitrarily insert/extract text from otherwise binary blobs. 20:46:30 right, but the point of UTF-8b is that something invalid (bad UTF-8) gets represented with something invalid (in this case, surrogate pair code points within a Unicode string) 20:47:06 housel: CODE-CHAR will return NIL for those code points. Why? I'd say because Gary Byers decided to do it that way :-). But I think he's right. OpenMCL uses UCS-4, not UTF-16, and surrogates are not meaningful in UCS-4. 20:47:46 fe[nl]ix, UTF-8b is probably a non-portable loser. 20:48:16 even in utf-32, multiple "characters" may end up combining into a single glyph 20:48:21 unless you also take over the character implementation of the underlying lisp 20:48:26 (and even then) 20:48:36 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:09 I'd rather have a library that directly combines bytes into glyphs from UTF-8 without going through UTF-32. 20:49:12 Fare: portability matters to me only up to a certain point. if it starts being problematic I simply drop support for that CL implementation 20:49:27 fe[nl]ix, I think this approach is losing, too. 20:49:34 glyphs are variable size under all of these encodings. 20:49:43 whereas the "native format" approach is intrinsically portable 20:50:02 native format ensures you write the library only once per OS 20:50:05 fe[nl]ix: I consider SBCL's allowance of surrogates to be a bug. Do you really want to drop support for OpenMCL -and- SBCL? :-O 20:50:15 not once per OS+implementation combo 20:51:05 it also ensures 100% interoperability with EVERYTHING on the native system 20:51:27 not 99% interoperability that forces one to do it all over from scratch when the last 1% is required. 20:51:45 (or to massively kluge the system) 20:52:18 lichtblau: I'm one of those autarkic lispers you wrote about. I really don't care about interoperability with the C libraries at large 20:52:38 you DON'T want to be responsible for such a moving part -- http://fare.livejournal.com/139755.html 20:52:50 fe[nl]ix: erm. do you mean me or Fare here? 20:53:01 -!- marianoguerra [n=mariano@23-120-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 20:53:06 then why bother maintaining a library? 20:53:11 ... because I don't recall writing about autarkic lispers nor C libraries :-) 20:53:19 lichtblau: yes, I meant that 20:53:31 :D 20:53:32 lichtblau, he meant the article the url of which I just pasted. 20:54:35 auclairb [n=auclairb@dhcp180-24.residence.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 20:55:45 fe[nl]ix, the point is -- it is trivial to write the UTF-8B thing on top of a native format library, but impossible to do the opposite. 20:56:53 -!- ehird is now known as ehird|away 20:57:30 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 21:00:17 well. I've made my case for the Mono approach where translation to strings is required (and I don't care at all whether there are octets underneath), so I'm out of this discussion, I think. 21:02:20 (btw, why is translation to string required in Mono?) 21:02:38 (oh, to mimic the interface designed on the windows side?) 21:02:56 lichtblau: but in that case your string is not a vector any more 21:03:54 anyway. I rest my case. 21:03:59 Bye for now. 21:04:14 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:05:58 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A94C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:06:23 -!- ehird|away is now known as ehird 21:06:44 I don't understand. How is the string not a vector? 21:07:07 dfox [n=dfox@rb5cm232.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 21:08:46 lichtblau - ELT is costly on UTF-8 strings. 21:09:54 ayrnieu: yes, UTF-8 would be a remarkably bad underlying implementation for Lisp strings. But I didn't suggest anything in that direction. 21:10:02 lichtblau: once you encode an invalid code point as two consecutive chars(#\Null + (code-char ), then it's what ayrnieu says 21:10:09 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:10:19 getting the nth code point from a string will require scanning the entire string from start 21:10:29 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@dhcp180-24.residence.usherb.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:11:08 yeah but what's the use case for doing that on a string? 21:11:24 fe[nl]ix: not if you spend memory on it 21:11:55 why would you ever want an arbitrary nth codepoint (not character!) of a string 21:12:27 We must be talking at cross-purposes. 21:12:41 sbahra [n=sbahra@161.253.156.110] has joined #lisp 21:12:42 dlowe: you'd have to invent your new kind of strings, instead of using CL-strings-as-vectors 21:13:06 foom: I don't know, but I want it 21:13:19 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:31 fe[nl]ix: interesting statement. :) 21:13:34 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:13:55 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-144-40.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:14:02 The issue I thought we were discussing was how to take arbitrary octets, and how to translate them into Lisp strings. The translation should translate valid UTF-8 into the appropriate Lisp characters and translate non-UTF-8 octets into something that can later be recognized in a round-trippable way. 21:14:03 in other words, I can't say I'll never need it 21:14:04 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:20 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:14:40 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-059-217.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:15:17 fe[nl]ix: Isn't that kind of like saying you require the ability to get to an arbitrary position in a list in constant time? 21:15:21 Those would be completely normal Lisp strings. A user with a junk character in ~/file-with-.txt would see "file-with-^@.txt" in the Lisp listener. 21:15:34 exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-157-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:46 anyways, I jumped in the middle of an apparently different conversation 21:15:46 (I wrote ^@ instead of an actual zero char there in case IRC doesn't handle that well.) 21:16:04 foom: in case you might find it useful, take a look at "ropes" 21:16:21 fe[nl]ix: yeah, I've seen them before. Seems too complex for most purposes. :) 21:16:33 it's too bad it's impossible to write "\x00" in CL. 21:17:10 lichtblau: the problem is that "^@" is conceptually speaking a single code point encoded as two chars 21:17:16 foom: you can write #?" 21:17:24 stupid keyboard with a tiny backslash 21:17:31 that breaks a lot of assumptions in many libraries 21:17:52 fe[nl]ix: I don't agree it's a "single code point" because it's not even a code point. It's binary junk. 21:18:05 No application would ever touch that part of the string in any meaningful way. 21:18:18 how can you be sure of that ? 21:19:29 Modius_ [n=Modius@69.150.59.146] has joined #lisp 21:20:20 you might need to parse those string in order to extract as much meaningful data as possible 21:20:42 I think any assumptions about what a programmer might do die when you factor in code generated by macros 21:20:48 phf [n=phf@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:48 immagine trying to recover a file from a corrupt hard disk 21:21:29 so the filename has random binary garbage? 21:21:40 so as long as you can read the file, it doesn't matter what the filename is, does it? 21:21:46 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-144-40.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:22:48 and is easier to process than the ^@? 21:22:59 -!- exu0 is now known as exu1 21:23:19 -!- exu1 is now known as exu0 21:23:30 yes, because it's a single char which unequivocally will map to a single octet 21:25:27 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:26:01 knobo` [n=bohmersp@noosbohknu.freecode.no] has joined #lisp 21:26:11 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has joined #lisp 21:26:20 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:25 are you afraid someone might split the filename between the NUL and the junkchar 21:26:30 and get confused when...something? 21:26:47 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:26:48 -!- xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [] 21:26:54 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:29 foom: it's not only about filenames, but also about file contents 21:29:52 Does not look like anyone wants to be responsible for making cl-facebook.. 21:30:12 are l1sp.org mapping files available somewhere publicly? 21:32:06 oh, file content encoding is much easier, since you can read it with binary, or with unicode-replacement-character processing. If you read it in text mode, doesn't really need to be reversible does it? 21:32:25 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:26 at least, nobody else cares to make it so in any other language 21:32:27 phf: there is xach's email on the page, ask him 21:34:08 oh, he's not on the channel... yah, i'll do that 21:34:58 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:35:12 silas428 [n=ryan@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:30 foom: there are cases where it needs to be reversible 21:35:44 a text editor, for example 21:37:05 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 21:38:29 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3927.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 21:39:03 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@161.253.156.110] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:56 sure, and I contend that a text editor with that requirement should read files in binary mode. 21:40:50 I'm gonna bet that mainstream GUI text editors don't have that requirement though. 21:41:03 but at a certain point it needs to decode those octets in order to display the characters 21:41:11 foom: mainstream GUI text editor... sounds like notepad to me 21:41:16 gvim! 21:41:27 *SeveredCross* ducks. 21:41:30 foom: And notepad.exe mmaps the file :P 21:41:52 foom: emacs does that 21:42:29 stupid gedit doesn't. if it finds even a single malformed octet it refuses to display the entire file 21:43:07 gedit... sounds like something from gnome? 21:43:21 right on 21:43:46 figures. refusing to display the file is right in the philosophy ;-) 21:44:28 and kedit just ignores the invalid bytes 21:45:15 stupid editors 21:45:33 *p_l* checks for unix version of TECO 21:45:38 :D 21:45:44 but you can force them to open it in latin-1, which'll work 21:46:39 damn, no teco in Arch 21:46:40 foom: not gedit. and opening a text file written in kana as latin-1 is quite useless 21:48:01 fe[nl]ix: sure it does. gedit has an encoding popup 21:48:27 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl5-64-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:48:45 but I agree, replacing bogus bytes with U+FFFD is a much nicer behavior. 21:49:19 robsynnot [n=irchon@mobileinternet2.o2.ie] has joined #lisp 21:49:57 -!- robsynnot [n=irchon@mobileinternet2.o2.ie] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:02 valvola [n=fabiovio@host12-249-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:50:24 -!- vy [n=user@88.224.71.107] has left #lisp 21:51:12 -!- silas428 [n=ryan@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:53:12 foom: btw, latest gedit allows you to try opening the file with other encodings, but still fails even with iso-8859-1 or iso-8859-15 21:54:23 -!- valvola [n=fabiovio@host12-249-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:55 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@0x573fd50a.cpe.ge-0-2-0-1104.arcnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [] 21:56:31 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3927.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:58:17 -!- knobo` [n=bohmersp@noosbohknu.freecode.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:32 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-174-188.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:53 So, I've been thinking about SBCL, debugging and backtraces recently, and have come to a conclusion: The whole thing is a disaster area, and needs some serious thought. 21:59:12 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 22:00:04 -!- Davidbrcz_ [n=david@ANantes-151-1-8-32.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:01:59 nyef: attila could have told you that a while ago :D 22:02:07 Oh, probably. 22:02:52 Seriously, though, variable mappings are only valid at specific instruction boundaries throughout a code segment? 22:03:26 No debug information for assembly-routines? 22:03:48 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl5-64-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:15 And it only gets worse, as with better debug information we can get more precise GC without having to partition the register set. 22:04:24 And so on, and so forth. 22:04:38 hmmm 22:04:59 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3927.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:05:14 would it be possible to keep debug info in mmap'd external files ? 22:05:42 What did you have in mind? 22:06:16 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:06:45 (All debug info at system startup is kept in an mmap'd external file anyway... sbcl.core.) 22:06:58 right 22:07:16 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-166-87.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:07:55 nyef: I was thinking of keeping debug info in a .dfasl, to be loaded only on request 22:09:09 Heh. I was thinking the other direction, if we have good debug info, we can get more precise GC, better backtraces, can possibly instrument allocation so as to no longer need to be pseudo-atomic, etc. 22:09:14 similar to how gdb works 22:10:32 You could possibly create a core without any debug info if you wanted, though. 22:11:19 That's a matter of going through all the code-objects and setting the debug-info to NIL. 22:11:47 has anyone ever tried that ? 22:12:09 Don't know. Stripping the debug info is mentioned as a possibility in the CMUCL documentation. 22:12:25 I'd be curious to find out how much one saves off sbcl.core by eliminating debug info and docstrings 22:13:12 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-101-123.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:13:42 Seb [n=Seb@untangle/dev/seb] has joined #lisp 22:13:45 hi everyone 22:13:58 i'm trying to do #3 on http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/exercises/lisp-exs.html 22:14:13 i came up with http://paste.lisp.org/display/75882, but I don't understand why I need the 1st setq line 22:14:31 I'd consider suggesting that it might be computable in terms of map-allocated-objects, but as that's part of ROOM I don't know how safe it is. 22:14:37 without it, subsequent calls to make-balance still use the old balance value, but I dont' udnerstand why 22:14:43 could anyone explain ? 22:15:43 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-240-176-62.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:06 Well, without it, where is there a reference to bal? 22:16:29 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:16:34 no, I mean, without it *and* the parameter to make-balance being called "balance" :) 22:17:18 ... Ah. Probably because you used setq instead of setf. 22:17:27 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:51 Hrm. Maybe not. 22:18:51 Seb - WFM. Please (describe 'balance) ; maybe you DEFVAR'd or toplevel- SETQ'd it into a special variable. 22:19:19 that's probably right 22:19:32 Yeah, that'd break the usual closure semantics. 22:19:55 some CLs automatically declaim a symbol as special when set at toplevel 22:20:11 those specials look cold without *earmuffs* on.. the poor dears. 22:20:37 :D 22:21:04 never let variables out of the house into the cold environment without their earmuffs! :) 22:21:47 Seb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/75882#1 <- now LAMBDA closes around the lexical variable BALANCE 22:22:16 let me see 22:22:38 slackjaw [n=jolyonw@p54977C33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:39 aaaaah 22:22:54 I understand 22:23:14 in drewCL, a toplevel setq on an undefined variable would be an error. 22:23:41 s/toplevel// 22:23:49 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host136-154-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 22:23:51 -!- EvanR [n=evan@adsl-157-38-84.msy.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 22:23:59 wow, ccl doesn't even signal a warning when doing that 22:24:22 sbcl at least complains loudly 22:24:44 i wish it didn't. :) 22:25:17 I always make the mistake of typing things like (setf foo (whatever)) at the repl 22:25:35 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has left #lisp 22:25:36 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:26:41 personally, i think CL got specials wrong.. this entire situation should not be possible. 22:28:27 the ISLISP way of handling dynamic scope is much nicer .. i've been playing with the new ContextL which has such a beast for CL 22:28:28 of the 7 CL impls I have locally none signal an error and only 3 signal a warning 22:29:15 search for 'defdynamic' here if you'd like to know what i'm talking about and don't : http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/closer-devel/2009-February/000550.html 22:29:59 these 3 are cmucl descendant?1 22:30:03 pascal's DYNAMIC-WIND is amazing as well... this stuff is really cool. 22:30:21 drewc - LOL defends the pun from the perspective of macros the generate or deal with LETs: these macros can be generally useful without special-variable-p hassles; the situation is similar to the nil-punning that other languages reject. 22:31:05 stassats: yes :D 22:31:09 cmucl, sbcl and scl 22:31:50 what's scl? 22:31:54 Scieneer. 22:31:58 ayrnieu: you can't possibly be citing Let over Lambda and expect me to listen ;). 22:31:59 oh, right 22:32:08 drewc - yep. It's an excellent book. 22:32:39 ayrnieu: that's the same guy who says that you should not use *earmuffs*, right? 22:32:51 drewc - yeah, he's wrong about that. 22:33:26 so he doesn't actually understand special variables/dynamic scope, imo, and therefore can't possibly have a good apology for CL's broken behavior. 22:34:07 the only real apology i've heard that makes and sense is the old standby : "backwards compatibility of sorts" 22:34:13 drewc - yeah, OR: he has a quirky but unimportant opinion. 22:34:30 dwave [n=ask@062249178204.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 22:35:12 ayrnieu: that's a big OR. I would not want him on my team, because his 'quirk' has the potential to break my codebase is subtle ways. 22:35:50 -!- dwave [n=ask@062249178204.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:52 *in subtle ways 22:36:21 And this is why you should hand LOL to someone and say "This is an excellent book, but forget the earmuffs thing. And stick to Emacs." 22:36:34 "anti-earmuffs thing" 22:36:57 ayrnieu: you can feel free to have that opinion. I think the book is pants. 22:36:59 Or you can just hand it to someone who is already somewhat competent in CL, and expect them to be smart about this. 22:37:19 why not hand them PAIP and simply say 'this is how it's done'? 22:37:32 drewc - no, you think the author is pants because of this one point, and assume that book must therefore be pants. You have no rightful opinion about the book. 22:37:44 dwave [n=ask@062249178204.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 22:37:45 ayrnieu: no .. i've read the book. 22:38:06 ayrnieu: while it's useful to show what you _can_ do, it's also a good example of what not to do, again IMO. 22:38:50 Hi - I am trying to just print a number with (format "~d" number) and the number keeps coming out with a d in it (19d0) - what is this d and how can i get rid of it? 22:39:18 i should mention - the number is a float 22:39:29 clhs 22.3.2.2 22:39:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cbb.htm 22:39:33 i want to print it as an integer though (i don't care about how lisp decides to round it) 22:39:48 thanks! 22:39:53 (format t "~f" 5.4) 22:40:22 (format t "~f" 5.4d0) 22:40:28 saikat: or, just ROUND it. 22:40:36 clhs 22.3.3 22:40:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cc.htm 22:40:43 ^ floating-point printers. 22:40:44 (format T "~A" (round 5.4d0)) 22:41:23 ah thanks 22:41:24 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-53-96.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 22:41:28 is the d 22:41:29 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-141.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 22:41:33 in the place of power? 22:41:47 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-148-90.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:41:49 when a number is like 5.4d0, is that the same as 5.4e0? 22:41:55 it is for double floats 22:42:04 saikat: no. d is for double precision 22:42:10 ahh i see, thanks 22:42:49 but yes, (format nil "~f" 1.5d10) => "15000000000.0" 22:43:35 no, e doesn't make it double 22:44:45 gonnylonnykins [n=tommylom@5ad471ca.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:51 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:45:19 how do i bootstrap names.sexp for hyperdoc? 22:45:58 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@69.150.59.146] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:46:20 Modius_ [n=Modius@69.150.59.146] has joined #lisp 22:51:12 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.169.71] has joined #lisp 22:51:29 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:51:47 hmm, looks like it's all work in progress... 22:52:34 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F3F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:34 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d82584.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:54:45 -!- tommylommykins [n=tommylom@5ad471ca.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:54:52 tommylommykins [n=tommylom@5ad471ca.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:05 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-174-188.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:58:09 lichtblau: http://common-lisp.net/project/hyperspec-lookup/hyperspec-lookup_latest.tar.gz is 404, linked to from the project page and from cliki 23:00:25 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:00:38 use cvs 23:02:14 -!- ehird is now known as ehird|away 23:03:35 -!- ehird|away is now known as ehird 23:04:09 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:05:32 -!- dwave [n=ask@062249178204.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 23:05:56 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:17 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:06:27 manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:49 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:31 -!- gonnylonnykins [n=tommylom@5ad471ca.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:12:36 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:15:02 dwave [n=ask@062249178204.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 23:16:20 -!- whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:18:22 doylent [n=doylent@host17-84-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:18:31 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:14 -!- tsuru [n=user@66.199.17.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:22 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:44 -!- dhess [n=user@bothawui.bothan.net] has quit ["bye!"] 23:22:31 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:25:43 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-63-130.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:43 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-63-130.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:29:01 technik [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:16 Beket [n=stathis@ppp1-71.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:30:42 -!- doylent [n=doylent@host17-84-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 23:36:56 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:37:34 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:12 durka42 [n=durka@64.20.183.154] has joined #lisp 23:40:56 durka42_ [n=durka@64.20.183.154] has joined #lisp 23:41:00 -!- durka42 [n=durka@64.20.183.154] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:42:18 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.169.71] has quit [] 23:46:19 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:40 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-43.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:52:02 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:52:32 durka42 [n=durka@421hostw2.starwoodbroadband.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:40 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:55:22 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless108.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:57:11 -!- durka42 [n=durka@421hostw2.starwoodbroadband.com] has quit [Client Quit]