00:00:34 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-181-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:01 If I reevaluate defclass with the same class name but a new definition, the old definition should be completely removed and replaced by the new definition, correct? 00:13:22 no 00:13:36 no? 00:13:45 slots will be merged 00:14:01 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:14:26 -!- mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:35 oh, that explains what I'm seeing... so is there an undefclass I can do before I reevaluate the defclass? 00:15:05 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:05 sorry my mistake 00:15:33 i'm not sure what happens 00:16:00 What happens is well-specified... but I don't remember what it is. 00:16:07 Well I have a slot that is :allocation :class. I changed its value, but every instance I make still has the old value. 00:16:18 There's a function called "update-instance-for-redefined-class", though. 00:16:34 First mistake: Using a class-allocated slot. 00:17:12 (Alternately, how about grabbing an instance and doing a (setf slot-value) on it?) 00:18:33 indeed, that works 00:26:33 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:26:59 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has joined #lisp 00:27:38 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-148-90.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:27:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:29:13 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:32:26 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.251.33] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:38:56 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:42:14 anyone have any idea why serve-all-events does not work from a newly spawned thread ? 00:42:30 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:44:55 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-32-185.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:45:51 Because... fd-handlers are registered per-thread, and you haven't registered any in the new thread? 00:46:29 yes that must be it 00:46:38 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:46:55 the problem is i'd like to register my handlers in the repl 00:47:13 and not have a loop burning away on serve-event 00:47:19 which will make the repl unusable 00:48:50 Are you sure it will? 00:49:15 (loop (serve-all-events 0) (sleep 0.01)) in the repl 00:49:25 Oh, yeah, that's dire. 00:49:36 But... If memory serves, the REPL has a dedicated evaluation thread. 00:49:53 I don't know if that does you any good. 00:50:29 Alternately, you could arrange some sort of message-passing thing to your event-thread for establishing and disestablishing fd-handlers. 00:50:48 I'm not going to suggest interrupt-thread here because that itself is dire. 00:52:04 clhs room 00:52:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_room.htm 00:52:49 "Hey, why doesn't ROOM on GENCGC systems just print statistics ripped from the GC page tables instead of doing all that random stuff grovelling the heap?" 00:54:37 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:28 and then crashing 00:56:28 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:49 Well, yes, that -was- a concern. 00:57:18 Honestly, I have an SBCL instance that I don't want to have crash, is running on a 32-bit heap, and I want to know how close to running out of space it is. 00:58:36 Because if the data set is held entirely in heap space during operation, and if it's going to overflow any time soon that affects my development priorities. 01:00:13 i can't bring myself to do messaging between threads just to handle some events interactively 01:00:17 why does it have to be so messy 01:00:31 I don't know. 01:00:44 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:00:48 i could use kqueue and add/remove event filters from any thread i want 01:00:59 I do know that, on windows, I managed to have slime playing nicely with a windows message dispatch in the same thread. 01:01:00 but it doesnt work with the descriptors i want 01:08:52 -!- mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:09:55 what if use a timer to interrupt *current-thread* 01:10:03 haha 01:10:30 Never interrupt a thread outside of a debugging scenario. 01:10:38 And even then, think twice. 01:10:42 -!- nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:12:01 well it works 01:12:06 (Why never interrupt a thread? Because it's trouble just begging to happen.) 01:12:39 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BE1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:14:08 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:24 threads in general are just trouble waiting to happen 01:18:56 -!- shurain [n=shurain@147.46.242.198] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:18:58 well i could do without them if i could plug into the sbcl event handler in a sane way 01:19:00 Now that's just not true. 01:19:12 Threads can be perfectly safe and reasonable. 01:19:29 i dont understand why sbcl doesnt run serve-event itself 01:19:36 xristos: Umm... It does. 01:19:50 nyef not in the repl thread 01:20:02 -!- archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:20:02 Are you sure? 01:20:14 of course i'm sure 01:20:27 i setup event handlers, they are never called 01:20:33 unless i call serve-event myself 01:20:36 So, it's stopped in read(2), rather than somewhere under SB-SYS::WAIT-UNTIL-FD-USABLE ? 01:21:22 let me check 01:21:51 (hint: Wait-until-fd-usable is one of the main entry points to serve-event... It's also one of the more dangerous ones.) 01:23:12 *stassats* is messing with slime documentation 01:24:17 Are there more than two users of the fd-stream communication-style on win32? 01:24:57 Or does everyone still use the nil communication-style there? 01:25:46 what are benefits of using one or another communication style? 01:26:38 Well, NIL is essentially a blocking communication style. 01:26:52 fd-stream lets you handle I/O events such as networking in the background. 01:27:19 Or in the foreground, really. 01:28:12 You can have an application start a swank server with an fd-stream communication style and then go off and do its thing single-threaded, and whenever the system ends up in serve-event slime stuff has an opportunity to happen. 01:28:17 At least, that's how I understand it. 01:28:42 <_3b> yeah, that's how i use it 01:28:45 It's been a long while since last I seriously looked at communication style. 01:29:58 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-149-218.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:19 -!- Jarvellis is now known as Tex 01:34:24 -!- FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:34:52 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-223.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:35:11 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 01:36:17 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 01:39:06 Oh, hey, while I remember. 01:39:32 Is there some way to set up a slime presentation to show up in emacs as an image rather than text? 01:40:25 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 01:40:34 Say I have a pnm-image object in sbcl. It's fairly easy to get that to show up in emacs via a slime-eval from a lisp interaction buffer, but I'd like to be able to have them show up in a slime-repl buffer. 01:40:45 if no, i think it's not too hard to make it 01:41:24 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:41:38 I'd gotten as far as realizing that it pretty much had to be a swank:eval-in-emacs bit, but then I couldn't figure out how to make it appear at the right place in the output buffer. 01:44:37 Anyway, it's not critical at this point. 01:45:44 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:45:54 And something still feels flawed about using what amounts to a proxy object system for presentations instead of actual live data... Possibly simply because of how limited the proxy system is. 01:45:55 insert-image-file takes argument for where to insert image 01:47:37 Hrm. Well, I'll probably take a look at it again the next time I feel the need for the functionality. 01:48:57 http://stassats.dyndns.org/img/slime.png looks like this... 01:49:57 poet [n=chatzill@vpn3-144128.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 01:50:30 -!- poet [n=chatzill@vpn3-144128.near.uiuc.edu] has left #lisp 01:51:35 Hunh. I've been using insert-image, which doesn't have that... But at least it gives me a place to start looking again. Thanks. 01:51:56 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 01:55:07 harrumph. I just told MacPorts to install maxima, and it had sbcl as a dependency. So I get a sbcl I don't need, built from source unnecessarily. 01:55:17 ...on the other hand, it's newer than the sbcl I installed myself. 01:56:15 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:02 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:03:26 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-181-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 02:08:44 i think its swank thats messing up the event loop 02:09:00 (sb-thread:condition-wait (mailbox.waitqueue mbox) mutex) 02:09:12 repl-thread is blocked there 02:09:56 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:13:48 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-71.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 02:21:59 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:22:11 nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 02:23:33 -!- Tex is now known as alephone 02:24:02 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-149-245.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:25:03 Unstoppable [n=IceChat7@201.170.132.222] has joined #lisp 02:25:53 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-150-22.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:51 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:57 If you are tired of the shitskin nigggggers like I am, and recognize that the majority of them will never come close to the mental abilities of the great Swami Obama, join us at http://www.chimpout.com/forum . At Chimpout we welcome all human races whether it be Asian, White, Semite, Indian, Amerindian, or non-negroid Hispanic! At Chimpout we value diversity but hate NIIIGGGGGGERS!!! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 02:29:42 erk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 02:30:17 gio123 [n=gio123@gprs1.gprs.ge] has joined #lisp 02:30:23 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 02:31:35 -!- mns [n=user@c-76-119-251-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:33:02 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:03 -!- Unstoppable [n=IceChat7@201.170.132.222] has quit [K-lined] 02:35:47 theoffset [n=ismael@201-130-230-208-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 02:37:04 what the fuck 02:37:12 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C489.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:28 durka42: it happens every now and then. It's some spammers that get paid to jump into freenode and do it. 02:38:16 does somebody has electronic version of Garrett Birkhoff, Lattice Theory. ? 02:38:27 i could find them a more worthwhile purpose for the money 02:38:47 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:51 I'm sure, but some people obviously disagree. Anyways, they've been K-Lined. 02:38:52 gio123: stop this 02:38:56 gio123: Please go away. 02:42:00 Right, I'm gone for at least the evening. 02:42:02 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 02:44:35 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:45:47 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:12 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:51 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:54:39 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-132-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 02:55:26 -!- anykey [n=gast@unaffiliated/anykey] has quit ["leaving"] 02:56:27 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.88.66] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:57:16 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-181-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:58:48 ok swank is seriously messed up 02:58:59 even when using fd-handler it blocks on a read 02:59:16 so it undermines the whole serve-event 03:00:09 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:02:08 -!- gio123 [n=gio123@gprs1.gprs.ge] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:05:12 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:05:25 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:18 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A054D.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:12:05 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-87-237.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:12:49 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 03:13:02 karpar [n=zhilihu@58.207.152.91] has joined #lisp 03:15:24 -!- karpar [n=zhilihu@58.207.152.91] has quit [] 03:20:45 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 03:21:23 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:21:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:42 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp16-146.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:26:26 I have published web4r, common lisp web application framework. http://github.com/tomoyuki28jp/web4r/tree/master The goal of this project is "enables users to develop web applications with the shortest codes in the world". This is my first project on Lisp. Any comment, advice or suggestion will be appreciated. Special thanks to the people in #lisp@freenode :) Without your help, I might not yet publish this. 03:27:26 you managed to get elephant to work :-o 03:27:40 something like (make "social network website")? 03:29:16 stassats: Intended to develop web applications. Of course, SNS is one :) 03:29:42 sykopomp: yes, I did :) 03:30:55 tomoyuki28jp: i mean '(make "social network website")' is the shortest code in the world 03:32:06 *stassats* would like somethig like (make "me happy") 03:32:43 stassats: Not only social network website. See examples/*.lisp. I have included arc-challenge, bbs, customer and blog examples. (All of them are simple though) 03:32:56 stassats: Hope the examples give you an idea. 03:33:28 web applications in general. 03:34:10 i understood, that was a lame joke 03:35:07 stassats: You mean what you said was a lame joke? 03:35:57 yeah, nevermind 03:37:25 stassats: okay. I thought you meant my project is a lame joke :( 03:38:55 Less impressively: http://www.cliki.net/CL-Sokoban 03:46:40 tomoyuki28jp: re: config.lisp, you can use (defvar *web4r-dir* #.*compile-file-pathname*) 03:47:27 stassats: thanks! let me try that one. 03:48:21 or (load-time-value (or #.*compile-file-pathname* *load-pathname*)), though anyway asdf systems usually are compiled 03:50:19 tomoyuki - you depend on cl-gd which depends on UFFI which is unavailable: http://uffi.b9.com/ 03:51:26 can't it use cffi-uffi-compat? 03:52:42 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.198.192] has joined #lisp 03:52:51 this defeats asdf-install, but OK. 03:56:41 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:47 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:01:15 stassats: #.*compile-file-pathname* also didn't work for me. The value varies depending on the file path which load the web4r package or currently opened by emacs. 04:01:50 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 04:03:29 well, it should vary depending on the file which is compiled 04:06:34 stassats: So if /tmp/use.lisp load web4r package, the value based on /tmp/use.lisp, correct? If so, we cannot use #.*compile-file-pathname* for config.lisp 04:08:19 clhs *compile-file-pathname* 04:08:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_cmp_fi.htm 04:08:58 e.g. you have config.lisp, do (compile-file "config.lisp") *compile-file-pathname* inside it should be "config.lisp" 04:09:03 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 04:09:11 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:09:19 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 04:12:19 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@85.186.180.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:03 stassats: use.lisp: (compile-file "/tmp/path.lisp") path.lisp: (defvar *path* *compile-file-pathname*) ; *path* => nil Why *path* is nil? 04:15:32 well, you forget #., it is crucial 04:17:04 stassats: path.lisp: (defvar *path2* #.*compile-file-pathname*) ; *path2* => unbound 04:17:29 did you load it? 04:17:49 stassats: I called (compile-file xx) 04:18:08 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:11 compile-file only compiles, now you need to load resulted fasl 04:19:08 stassats: I did (load xxx) and *path2* is set to nil. 04:19:45 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:19:57 xxx is fasl? 04:20:36 stassats: yes. Is the code work on your env? 04:21:11 cmatei [n=cmatei@85.186.180.45] has joined #lisp 04:21:17 anyway, to make it work for load too: (defvar *path* (load-time-value (or #.*compile-file-pathname* *load-pathname*))) 04:21:26 tomoyuki28jp: yes, it does work 04:25:47 -!- g0ju_ [n=moo@spalila.hrz.fh-zwickau.de] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:26:08 iaindalton [n=user@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:09 stassats: It seems like the code works in my env too. thanks! 04:28:29 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:49 What does the `f' in `setf' and `getf' mean? 04:28:55 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 04:28:57 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 04:28:59 'place' 04:29:22 I know that it gets or sets a place, but why an `f'? 04:29:42 how does getf get a place? 04:29:56 Wait, oop. You're right. 04:30:07 So one gets a value and the other sets a place. 04:30:20 Sets the value of a place. 04:30:52 When I hear `f', I think `function', but that probably doesn't apply here. 04:31:09 yes, it doesn't 04:31:13 I mean, it seems that getf only deals with plists. But there is (setf (getf *place* ...) ..) 04:31:18 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:31:37 and what about 'q' in 'setq' and 'c' in 'princ' and whatever -- there's quite a bit of mysteries... 04:32:02 setq quouted 04:32:07 pff, set 04:32:09 (setq a x) == (set 'a x) 04:32:37 oh, really? 04:32:49 no, it isn't equal 04:33:24 but that's the origin of the name 04:33:44 "The general rule is that output from princ is intended to look good to people" -- I suppose that it's princely :-) 04:34:25 stepnem - SET doesn't work on lexical variables 04:35:09 and doesn't respect symbol macros 04:35:19 yeah, it sets values of symbols, but does it make it's name clearer? 04:36:51 a 'LISP etymological dictionary' would be an interesting project... 04:36:52 no, it doesn't, that's a historical reason 04:38:11 but well in fact, there's no *that* much mysteries -- so maybe not a dictionary, just a short vocabulary... 04:38:25 -!- hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:38:30 hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 04:38:32 would be nice, anyway... 04:42:24 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 04:42:35 stepnem: you may find this paper intersting: www.dreamsongs.com/Files/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf "The Evolution of Lisp" 04:43:06 it describes origins of some features 04:44:07 thank you! 04:44:21 Well, here's some Lisp etymology: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/0b4f477e0a4546a9/ab5fb5b5dc81edcf?#ab5fb5b5dc81edcf 04:45:06 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 04:46:38 -!- tripwyre_ [n=sathya@117.193.169.133] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:46:59 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-225.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:49:12 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:51:51 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.12.32] has left #lisp 04:54:33 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-225.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:00:38 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has joined #lisp 05:01:00 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4482F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:47 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has quit [Client Quit] 05:07:08 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 05:17:36 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:18:16 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44CD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:23:54 aja` [n=user@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:13 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:27:26 What's with this confusing line? 05:27:27 The reading functions--READ-CHAR, READ-LINE, and READ--all take an optional argument, which defaults to true, that specifies whether they should signal an error if they're called at the end of the file. If that argument is NIL, they instead return the value of their third argument, which defaults to NIL. 05:27:41 Does it default to true or nil? It says one then the other. 05:28:27 <_3b> the arg specifying if it should signal an error defaults to true 05:28:45 the second defaults to T, the third to NIL 05:28:52 <_3b> if you set that to false, it returns the value of the next arg, which defaults to nil 05:29:04 Oh OK 05:29:09 Sorry about the confusion 05:33:56 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:37:01 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:40:49 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:40:50 -!- aja` [n=user@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:41:32 aja` [n=user@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:58 -!- aja` [n=user@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:43:00 Why does open's :direction keyword take a keyword as its value instead of a symbol? 05:43:16 <_3b> keywords are symbols 05:43:34 aja` [n=user@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:57 (open "foo" :direction :output) == (open "foo" :direction 'output) ? 05:44:04 <_3b> probably not 05:44:22 <_3b> :output == keyword:output == 'keyword:output 05:44:26 :foo is really just 'keyword:foo 05:44:43 keywords reside in the keyword package while symbols default to *package*. So it makes it easier to compare the values 05:44:46 It seems I usually see a keyword taking something starting as ' rather than : 05:44:47 <_3b> joshe: no, :foo is keyword:foo, no ' 05:45:09 Is there a reason OPEN isn't like this? 05:45:23 Or are my expectations just wrong from limited experience? 05:46:16 oh, I didn't realize keywords evaluated to themselves 05:46:58 <_3b> iaindalton: usually you use a symbol from a specific package when the meaning depends on the package 05:47:49 I haven't learned about packages yet; briefly, what are they? 05:48:06 <_3b> packages are just a mapping of names to symbols 05:48:19 Oh, OK 05:49:09 saikat [n=saikat@99.48.51.134] has joined #lisp 05:49:18 <_3b> keywords are just symbols in a special package 05:49:52 I am having trouble accessing the CLSQL manual at http://clsql.b9.com/manual/ (the site seems to be down) - does anyone know if the site is mirrored elsewhere? 05:49:56 Keywords can be compared by eq. Since symbols can reside in different packages you would need to get the symbol-name and use string=. 05:50:14 saikat: did you try wayback? 05:50:29 i didn't, good idea 05:50:33 thanks 05:51:01 np 05:59:27 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E456AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:17 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.198.192] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:07:24 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:16:43 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4482F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:20:02 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:20:38 [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.45] has joined #lisp 06:24:09 younder, well, equal should work? 06:25:22 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:25:35 well yes, but that's even slower being more general 06:26:59 iaindalton, check out the "idiot's guide to packages" or what it's called by Ron Garret 06:28:27 Oh, you mean on the symbol itself? no 06:31:48 ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:18 eharry [n=Administ@125.76.158.132] has joined #lisp 06:33:54 -!- eharry [n=Administ@125.76.158.132] has quit [Client Quit] 06:35:44 -!- theoffset [n=ismael@201-130-230-208-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:41:03 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:05 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has joined #lisp 06:45:20 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp474.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:45:22 eharry [n=Administ@125.76.158.132] has joined #lisp 06:45:36 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:50:26 -!- eharry [n=Administ@125.76.158.132] has quit [Client Quit] 06:51:03 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:01:11 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:03:20 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:03:45 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 07:10:08 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 07:20:41 moin 07:22:48 eharry [n=Administ@125.76.158.132] has joined #lisp 07:23:37 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.158.80] has joined #lisp 07:27:25 -!- eharry [n=Administ@125.76.158.132] has quit [Client Quit] 07:28:06 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-74-201.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:28:17 Good morning. 07:28:31 beach: mornin' beach! 07:28:57 beach: It's very exciting. I figured out a MOP for my prototype toy, and things look very promising! It's a bit exciting :) 07:29:18 sykopomp: Hey, congratulations! 07:29:21 *sykopomp* is excited enough to repeat himself a lot. 07:29:39 sykopomp: Did the Self articles help? 07:29:58 not for the MOP thing, but it was actually really nice to read some concrete thoughts on Prototype-based OOP. 07:30:12 OK 07:30:49 sykopomp: Are you planning to come to ELS2009? 07:30:51 did self have a mop at all? I didn't see anything regarding the matter... 07:30:57 ELS? 07:30:58 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:12 g'day #lisp 07:31:19 schme: mornin' 07:31:19 sykopomp: European Lisp Symposium. 07:31:23 hello schme 07:31:27 beach: oh, probably not, no :) 07:31:35 sykopomp: too bad. 07:31:52 beach: I'm sort of broke, and I live across the puddle ;p 07:31:58 sykopomp: Good work with your prototype toy! 07:32:02 sykopomp: darn :( 07:32:06 schme: thanks! 07:33:40 drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 07:33:48 *tic* ponders Bx + ELS, but not sure yet 07:34:34 beach: I -am- planning to go to the ILC, though. I'm right next door, so it's accessible :) 07:34:49 nawww.. may 27-29 07:35:00 So what are the plans on moving this to other dates? :) 07:37:05 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:37:36 kthakur [n=kthakur@c-24-16-36-36.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:36 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 07:43:06 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 07:44:25 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:45:04 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 07:47:36 -!- drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:48:04 schme [n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:48:44 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:51:44 tic: ELS is in Milan this year. 07:52:10 schme: no such plans. 07:52:36 beach: Ok.. lemme just try to remember what I was asking. :) 07:52:46 right. 07:53:01 2010 then! 07:53:46 schme: You would have to lobby the ESL steering committee. 07:54:11 Beket [n=stathis@ppp16-146.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:56:33 Yeees.. Though I doubt it would do much good. I think I could spend m time doing something with higher chance of being fruitful :) 07:58:23 What could possibly be more fruitful than ELS? :) 07:58:38 -!- _death [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:59:13 gio123 [n=gio123@gprs1.gprs.ge] has joined #lisp 08:03:01 Aaah.. No I meant spending my time trying to get them to move the thing a week.. seems not like a good waste of time :) 08:03:04 gio123: go away! 08:03:33 _death [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 08:04:37 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:05:20 beach: why? 08:06:33 I think you know why. You have never contributed to this channel, nor do you have any intention to. You seem to connect to various channels only to get people to illegally copy papers and books for you. That's not what this channel is about. 08:07:00 Does this ELS move about each year? 08:07:03 gio123: Furthermore, you are rude to people coming here regularly. 08:07:16 schme: locations, yes. Dates, probably a little bit. 08:07:33 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:08:33 beach: can u tell me a person with whom I am rude? 08:08:45 gio123: I can, yes. Me. 08:09:02 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-251-184-170.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:09:25 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-251-184-170.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:44 beach: I was mostly thinking location there. Great. :) 08:10:19 schme: This is how we get to see different places while being financed by our institutions :) 08:10:59 Well if one was so inclined to be associated with an institution. 08:10:59 heh 08:11:00 schme: It is also how we avoid having the same people organize it every year. 08:11:07 But yes, seems very nice to move it about. 08:11:15 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:12:41 *Draggor* basks in the glory that is hunchentoot 08:15:01 beach: u are my friend! 08:16:01 gio123: If you were here to contribute, you would understand that this channel frowns upon people who use abbreviations such as "u" for "you". 08:16:23 cute: http://people.aapt.net.au/dktrudgett/dkt/programs/tictactoe.lisp (and a good example of Ltk -- at least, I finally figured out that I should bind KeyPress to *tk*) 08:16:43 gio123: And, no, I am not a friend of someone whose main preoccupation seems to be to obtain illegal copies of copyrighted material. 08:17:25 yes 08:17:30 but I need it to study 08:17:35 i do not have choice 08:17:41 I need to study!!!! 08:17:56 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:19:15 gio123: First: you do not *need* to study. Second: You could do like normal people and buy the books. second hand tends to be not so expensive. Third: If you like to ask about for pirated copies maybe ask somewhere else. 08:21:13 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:21:40 schme: may i ask u why i do not need to study? 08:22:00 gio123: Will you die if you do not study? 08:22:22 schme: no, but I like when I studing 08:22:46 So buy the darned books :) 08:22:55 I do not have money 08:22:59 I am unemplyed 08:23:03 Welcome to life as a student. 08:23:27 -!- thom__ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:23:41 Ok. Igot dragged into something bad here. 08:23:54 thom__ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:10 antoinevg_ [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has joined #lisp 08:24:25 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 08:24:31 every so sorry. I'll move you guys over to another workspace and add magic up some code to record sleeping here instead. 08:24:37 all hail mcclim, and so forth :) 08:25:26 -!- antoinevg [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:30:23 gio123: Being poor is not an excuse for doing illegal things. At least not where I am from. 08:30:38 -!- kthakur [n=kthakur@c-24-16-36-36.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:31:52 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:32:42 beach, yeah, I was thinking about going there with you. not sure about vacation and stuff though. 08:32:58 tic: Milan? 08:33:09 gio123: And it is certainly not an excuse for asking others to do illegal things for you. 08:34:19 beach, yeah, I thought you were going to ELS? 08:35:09 tic: I am, yes. I am part of the steering committee, so it would look bad if I don't show up. Plus, I haven't been to Milan for 40 years. 08:36:24 beach, :) 08:37:05 -!- rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:39:14 -!- antoinevg_ [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:42:21 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:46:36 robyonrails [n=roby@host207-200-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:48:39 -!- gio123 [n=gio123@gprs1.gprs.ge] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:56:52 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:39 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 09:01:03 iamabarnacle [n=christia@121.96.122.142] has joined #lisp 09:01:32 -!- iamabarnacle [n=christia@121.96.122.142] has left #lisp 09:08:21 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:37 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 09:09:59 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:10:59 -!- mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:20:20 antoinevg_ [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has joined #lisp 09:21:18 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 09:21:59 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:22:31 -!- Modius_ is now known as Modius 09:23:16 Is (setf a 5) portable where a is symbol-macrolet defined to be (gethash some-key some-hash) ? 09:23:43 Sorry, I mean, is (setQ a 5) portable where a is symbol-macrolet defined to be (gethash some-key some-hash) ? 09:23:49 yes. 09:24:03 Yes on the setQ? 09:24:07 yes. 09:26:24 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:36 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:33 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-40-48.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 09:29:23 -!- saikat [n=saikat@99.48.51.134] has quit [] 09:33:55 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-4-192.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:11 archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 09:34:19 -!- antoinevg_ [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:36:28 antoinevg_ [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has joined #lisp 09:41:30 -!- iStig [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:42:10 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:43:22 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:01 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-59-51.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 09:56:52 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0EBD7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:05 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 10:05:15 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:08:52 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:09:07 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-4-192.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:09:18 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-4-192.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:36 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0EBD7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:13:11 -!- thom__ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:13:12 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp474.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:14:31 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:17:13 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:18:39 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-148-90.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:19:39 -!- rutski [n=rutski@ool-44c66f35.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 10:21:59 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 10:23:10 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 10:27:14 -!- aja` [n=user@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:27:22 kg [n=imkin@little-black-box.vmware.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:25 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 10:28:57 Hi I am new to lisp. Please suggest me any good place to start up with learning the basics of lisp 10:29:25 minion: Tell kg about that-dead-sexy-book. 10:29:26 kg: have a look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 10:30:02 haha 10:30:11 simplex [n=a@124.132.158.211] has joined #lisp 10:30:34 minion / Aankhen thanks 10:30:44 is minon a bot?? 10:30:47 trekdanne [n=trekdann@unaffiliated/trekdanne] has joined #lisp 10:30:55 minion: are you a bot? 10:30:56 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 10:30:57 minion: Are you a bot? 10:30:58 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 10:31:00 Whoops, too slow. 10:31:14 thanks :) 10:31:51 segyr [n=terje@ti311110a080-4147.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 10:36:23 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-40-48.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:37:08 morning 10:37:36 minion: resurrect sarahbot 10:37:37 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 10:38:29 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:42:53 -!- simplex [n=a@124.132.158.211] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:48:50 eharry [n=Administ@125.76.158.132] has joined #lisp 10:50:22 -!- alephone is now known as Jarvellis 10:51:14 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-225.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:51:36 thom__ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:26 -!- eharry [n=Administ@125.76.158.132] has quit [Client Quit] 10:53:00 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb435e.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 10:54:34 elurin [n=user@85.99.88.66] has joined #lisp 10:56:48 benny [n=benny@i577A0401.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:58:56 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:42 does the effective method caching mechanism in PCL as implemented in SBCL still " store 8 hash seeds in each wrapper, resulting in very low average probe depths."? 11:02:39 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-158-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:03:09 I'm citing "Efficient Method Dispatch in PCL" by Kiczales and Rodriguez 11:03:12 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-132-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:04:10 ginstre [n=ginstre@dslb-084-059-206-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:36 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp16-146.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:08:21 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:10:56 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:12:23 *robyonrails* roby[away] 11:16:04 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-204-206.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:16:06 hello Krystof, any news from that journal? 11:17:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 11:17:27 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.132.253] has joined #lisp 11:18:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:02 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:25:05 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:25:54 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 11:27:47 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:32:18 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 11:32:29 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-092-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:00 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 11:34:31 -!- segyr [n=terje@ti311110a080-4147.bb.online.no] has quit [] 11:35:30 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 11:35:53 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:37:27 beach: I have heard nothing 11:38:00 jewel: I don't think so, but I can't remember when it was changed 11:39:40 you can inspect a class, then its wrapper, and look for clos-hash 11:39:55 nikodemus did some measuring and decided that the extra space wasn't actually worth it 11:40:04 the average probe depth is still low 11:46:29 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:41 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F44A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:37 gio123 [n=gio123@gprs1.gprs.ge] has joined #lisp 11:53:04 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:53:42 Krystof: I could swear it was you that did that measuring 11:56:46 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:58:08 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:58:25 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-11-4.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:10 segyr [n=terje@ti311110a080-4147.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 12:05:32 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:07:13 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:26 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:17:27 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-11-4.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:17:53 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-157-87.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:18:11 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:18:43 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-4-192.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:08 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-092-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:20:08 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-158-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:20:08 -!- younder [n=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:20:08 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-211.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:20:08 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:20:08 -!- larstobi [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:20:08 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:20:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-211.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 12:20:38 tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 12:22:14 AllNight^ [n=EnglishG@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:24:24 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 12:26:39 Sbidicuda [n=antani@host59-228-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:28:31 larstobi [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has joined #lisp 12:36:36 any cells gurus around? 12:37:28 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-5-199.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:09 (c-fomula (:inputp t) ... slots use the formula or can get setf. is there any way to unset the setf value and get back the formula, so the slot gets calculated again? 12:38:25 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:39:20 dont quite understand your question turbo24prg .. though admittedly I'm fairly new to CLOS 12:39:26 what is it your trying to do? 12:41:18 example: you have a text field. if it's empty, a formula calculates a value, but if the user enters sth. that value should be used 12:42:13 -!- ginstre [n=ginstre@dslb-084-059-206-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:42:23 oh hang on - this is a specific library your talking about isnt it? 12:42:25 now the user clears the field and wants to have the field to be calculated again 12:42:32 yeah, cells 12:42:33 *AllNight^* has vague memories of this 12:42:40 *AllNight^* winces - sorry .. I dont know it 12:42:47 I've heard of it - but that's really all 12:42:47 :| 12:42:57 no prob 12:43:09 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:24 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c213-100-35-238.swipnet.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:48:33 rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has joined #lisp 12:49:28 jsnell: huh. Possibly it was 12:49:55 I think I might have measured the distribution of depths and nikodemus might have measured whether it actually mattered 12:50:32 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:54:24 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 12:55:24 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:03 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:56:57 -!- AllNight^ is now known as AllNight^afk 13:00:07 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:02:03 fr33fall [n=fr33fall@154-230-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:19 -!- fr33fall [n=fr33fall@154-230-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:03:07 fr33fall [n=fr33fall@154-230-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:21 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:04 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-14-228.dynamic.amis.net] has 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[n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:44:12 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:44:38 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:42 G'morning all. 13:45:54 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 13:45:54 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0401.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:46:10 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:46:22 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:50:37 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011912]"] 13:52:02 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-114-25.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:52:35 -!- segyr [n=terje@ti311110a080-4147.bb.online.no] has quit [] 13:54:00 -!- beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-114-52.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit 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[n=algidus@88-149-209-211.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:06:02 benny [n=benny@i577A0401.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:10 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb435e.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:09:52 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-40-48.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:04 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-46-119.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:16:12 -!- beach```` is now known as beach 14:16:28 Hello beach. 14:16:36 hey nyef 14:16:42 [and good afternoon everyone] 14:18:21 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:54 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:21:58 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb435e.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:23:37 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:33:05 kryptiskt [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has joined #lisp 14:46:40 Hi, Niklas. 14:49:49 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:50:19 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:05 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:23 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.5/2008122807]"] 14:58:04 ginstre [n=ginstre@dslb-084-059-206-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:45 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.88.66] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:51 ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 15:03:08 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:52 -!- kg4qxk`` [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 15:07:53 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:09:19 -!- drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:13 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:13:37 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host117.190-137-179.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:14:19 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:46 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 15:15:47 msphix [n=msphix@aaqi2.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:20:39 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:20:50 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 15:22:49 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:23:25 Tordek__ [n=tordek@host123.190-137-193.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:23:41 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:26:48 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:02 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host147.190-227-32.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:46 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:34:00 Tordek [n=tordek@host231.190-139-136.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:35:50 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [] 15:36:54 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-40-48.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:24 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:39 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:40:55 Fufie1 [n=Frog@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:32 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host117.190-137-179.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:42:35 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host179.190-137-249.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:44:17 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:34 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-189.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:46:41 -!- Tordek__ [n=tordek@host123.190-137-193.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:57 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:49:00 well, debian finally rev'd 15:49:03 cool 15:49:13 kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:51:24 -!- karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:52:13 Dedicated to Thiemo Seufer, who was responsible in large part for Lenny having SBCL 1.0.18 instead of 0.9.18. 15:53:45 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0EF06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:55 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:54:01 Tordek__ [n=tordek@host197.190-137-186.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:54:17 kthakur [n=kthakur@c-24-16-36-36.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:10 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host231.190-139-136.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:56:04 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-41-137.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:56:22 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-46-119.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:56:24 -!- beach` is now known as beach 15:57:18 nunb [n=user@82.84.81.159] has joined #lisp 16:00:58 LiamH: and many more, especially on mips. 16:03:20 pkhuong: indeed; I was thinking about SBCL because he was the first to respond about unblocking it last spring/summer. 16:07:44 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host179.190-137-249.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:08:30 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:15 -!- nunb [n=user@82.84.81.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:10:05 josemanuel [n=josemanu@73.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:10:40 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0EBD7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:21 -!- Tordek__ [n=tordek@host197.190-137-186.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:38 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:20:09 Is my understanding correct that '2 and 2 mean the same thing, because 2 evaluates to itself? 16:20:45 In an evaluation context, your understanding is correct. 16:21:10 Note that ''2 and '2 do not mean the same thing in an evaluation context, however. 16:21:15 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 16:23:11 Is that because 'something means do not evaluate "something", but instead take it quoted. So ' '2 means: do not evaluate '2? So it should return '2, right? 16:23:44 Right. 16:24:12 There comes a time when knowing exactly what something means, both in and out of an evaluation context, comes in handy. 16:24:37 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:24:52 how to list all functions available inside a package? 16:25:45 leo2007 - use do-symbols 16:25:49 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm 16:26:16 -!- whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:26:16 or less programatically, inspect the package object in slime, noting which symbols are marked as having function definitions 16:26:40 if you explicitly want to restrict it to symbols who's function-cell is set you need to a little more work 16:26:45 (loop for symbol being the symbol when (fboundp symbol) collect symbol) 16:27:29 I'd be paranoid & put 'functionp' in there was well - the function-cell doesnt _have_ to hold a function 16:27:37 *AllNight^afk* has been bitten by that before 16:30:26 AllNight^afk: thanks 16:31:07 is any equality predicate guaranteed to work on packages? I see that I could just compare by #'package-name 16:31:41 #'? 16:31:50 ayrnieu: I'd have thought that two packages with the same name would be EQ. 16:32:49 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43E8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:59 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:33:05 since no two different packages can have same name, it would be the same package 16:33:44 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-204-206.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:41 -!- AllNight^afk is now known as AllNight^ 16:35:14 np :) 16:35:21 hm, OK 16:36:08 Hmm... has anyone gotten around to porting the emacs calendar to CLIM ? (: 16:38:33 stern [n=seelenqu@pD9E44E03.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:58 -!- stern is now known as seelenquell 16:39:09 M-x find-library RET calendar RET -- it's pretty small. 16:40:54 oh, there are also the cal- libraries. 16:43:48 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 16:44:47 Hmmm ? 16:45:15 ayrnieu: I'll take that as a No. 16:46:44 the problem with that idiom, here, is that it takes me as knowing what everyone is doing. 16:48:07 ayrnieu: Well. I'm just not sure about how anything you mentioned relates to my question :) 16:48:24 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E456AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:09 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43E8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:13 I tried to save my lisp core with sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die, but it complains saying "Cannot save core with multiple threads running". I wasn't even aware that there are multiple threads running. how do I shut them down or make it work? 16:52:00 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.240.13] has joined #lisp 16:52:11 Nickyy2: Let me guess... you're using slime? 16:52:25 yes, sorry, forgot to mention that. 16:53:29 I'm not sure if this is possible, but I'd try a slime-disconnect, in the hopes that it leaves the process running, and then try the save-lisp-and-die from the *inferior-lisp* buffer. 16:53:43 there is swank-backend:save-image function 16:53:55 Or that. 16:54:06 it forks before saving 16:54:32 *nyef* doesn't actually use save-lisp-and-die beyond building sbcl. 16:59:26 There's no swank-backend:save-image in my implementation :/. However, there is swank-backend:swank-compile-file, but it does not seem to do the job. Is it possible to just fork a new process and use save-lisp-and-die then? 16:59:51 Nickyy2 try doing what nyef told you 17:00:14 Nickyy2: swank-backend:save-image should work on sbcl 17:00:20 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44E03.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 17:01:09 iStig [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:43 i mean, it should be implemented for sbcl, not necessarily work 17:02:25 -!- msphix [n=msphix@aaqi2.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:07:30 I did what nyef suggested, disconnected with M-x slime-disconnect, and tried save-lisp-and-die from the *inferior-lisp* buffer. Still complains about multiple threads running. 17:07:57 (sb-thread:list-all-threads) 17:08:00 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-11-4.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:00 yea 17:08:47 there is an "auto-flush-thread" and an "initial-thread". should I kill the auto-flush-thread? if so, how? 17:08:57 MinnowTaur [n=chatzill@ip68-109-196-203.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:59 (sb-thread:terminate-thread (nth n (sb-thread:list-all-threads))) (There's also the option of programmatically forking then slad) 17:10:25 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:12:10 sphix [n=msphix@aaqi2.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:14:08 hello all! its been awhile. I've been contracting in java for the last several months and now I've a chance to get back to Lisp. I also just built an i7 with my share of the booty and was wondering what flavor of Xen enabled Linux I should throw on it. Of course I look forward to sbcl on something other than os x for a change, even if I'll still build my own image from source. My... 17:14:10 ...question is what versions of linux are most suitable for lisp development? I've experience with slackware, redhat, mandrake, gentoo and suse (in that order) previously, feel like the new Debian might be worth a go this time around. Opinions? 17:15:06 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:26 choose the one you are most familiar with 17:15:33 MinnowTaur: I doubt it matters as long as you can get emacs22 17:15:37 i use slackware and i like it, but i don't think the distro makes any major difference 17:15:44 as long as you do your own lisp management in terms of building everything yourself 17:18:54 Sadly I usually choose something other than what I already know. The grass, you know, looks so good from where you are standing... 17:19:15 MinnowTaur: Well debian then, but do *not* aptitude install sbcl :) 17:19:57 in slime is there a keybinding for something like GSL> (documentation #'jacobian-elliptic-functions 'function)) 17:20:00 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 17:20:05 that prints the document in the buffer 17:20:10 in the REPL 17:20:39 C-c C-d d 17:20:56 thats what I was afraid of, at some point every package manager breaks down and you are building from scratch to get what you want. Which package manager becomes the least hinderance at that point could be important. 17:21:04 neat use of do-external-symbols on SBCL: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/497229/does-any-common-lisp-function-return-3-values 17:21:08 MinnowTaur: clbuild is your friend. 17:21:18 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-251-184-170.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:21:24 I've had portage problems in gentoo of said nature before. 17:21:37 MinnowTaur: The trick is: do not use it, use clbuild ;) 17:21:45 stassats: that brings up a new buffer displaying all doc in upper case which is quite difficult to read 17:22:02 i will check out clbuild 17:22:05 "The Jacobian elliptic functions sn(u|m), 17:22:05 cn(u|m), dn(u|m) computed by descending Landen transformations." 17:22:24 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-82-104.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:25 Thanks all ! 17:22:30 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 17:23:47 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-82-104.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:24:04 -!- ginstre [n=ginstre@dslb-084-059-206-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:24:31 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-82-104.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:33 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 17:34:30 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:15 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-11-4.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:44:22 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-11-4.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:27 -!- Nickyy2 [n=nick@p4FD3E41A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 17:48:06 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:51:37 MinnowTaur: should you choose gentoo, make sure to use the lisp overlay 17:55:49 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:56:05 ravster [n=user@dsl-67-212-23-238.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:12 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:56:26 hello people 17:57:53 Hello ravster 18:02:25 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:03:05 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [] 18:07:51 lichtblau: ok, the lisp overlay looks like a good idea, but how about the common lisp controller? That looked like it was growing in popularity last time I was active in this channel 18:08:31 *dlowe* can't recall any time that clc was popular in this channel. 18:08:54 it was probably growing in popularity either among people asking for help whose setup didn't work, or to complain about 18:09:05 lol, ok :) 18:11:03 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 18:11:21 MinnowTaur: CLC is the reason to *not* use the debian lisp packages ;) 18:11:50 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 18:12:18 Hey 18:13:16 Hey 18:14:00 Here is what I see from a few hours of poking around the web and chatting here. Lisp work on linux seems to be focused on Debian and Gentoo, both have large numbers of supported packages and libraries available. Each also has a 'lisp focused' additional manager, the portage lisp overlay for Gentoo and the CLC for Debian. I must admit I myself forsook CLC when I migrated to os x from... 18:14:02 ...Gentoo in 2006. It just didn't work right with sbcl on that platform if I recall. 18:14:03 Gentoo takes quite a bit of effort if I recall, its been two years maybe its improved? Wow, I might be going Gentoo again after all :D 18:15:19 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:15:52 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:16:13 MinnowTaur: It would seem to me that quite a lot of lispers do use debian. But I think that is totally unrelated to lisp.. Debian is kinda popular, no? 18:16:23 MinnowTaur: Either way the lisp packages for debian are useless :) 18:16:26 *tic* uses Ubuntu 18:16:35 HEATHEN 18:16:38 But nobody uses the common-lisp-controller. 18:16:42 my server plays Deb. 18:17:06 I am guessing ubuntu is the same.. nice distro, but one just avoids the lisp packages :) 18:17:13 *[Head|Rest]* uses Brain 18:17:18 schme, indeed. 18:17:36 Dunno about gentoo. I'd put my money on the same thing going on there :) 18:18:05 -!- Sbidicuda [n=antani@host59-228-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:18:28 hmm.. ECL stumbles on some defstructs 18:18:36 Nickyy [n=nick@p4FD3DEAF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:01 which? 18:19:59 when I left gentoo for os x I was using CLC as there was package support, but they(gentoo) since discarded it in favor of a lisp portage overlay. A promising result no? only one way to find out I guess 18:20:01 Hi again. I got the sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die thingy to work. So thanks to all of you for your help :) However, it's a 40 MB file (okay, I can accept that), but it takes about 35 MB of resident memory (and it just prints out a simple text string and quits). 18:20:03 I want to run dozens of small lisp programs like this on a PC with very limited RAM. Is there a way to reduce the RAM usage? 18:20:29 ayrnieu: i can paste on lisppaste 18:20:31 MinnowTaur - lichtblau told you to use the lisp portage overlay if you went with gentoo. 18:20:59 Fufie - please, I'd like to watch out for it at least. 18:21:10 MinnowTaur: the debian sbcl package is a good way to bootstrap an sbcl image with clbuild 18:21:22 or, I imagine, the equivalent gentoo sbcl. 18:22:10 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:58 fufie pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75524 18:23:00 hi, I'm just starting out with self-learning lisp. Could someone point out a page where they say how to make a variable of a static type? I know the 'declare' function is used, but can't seem to find a clear explanation with an example. Thank you. 18:23:05 sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:31 -!- sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:23:48 ravster: ... Variables don't have types. 18:24:23 nyef: or whatever is done to optimize a program 18:24:29 ravster, if you're not already reading it, Practical Common Lisp would be a good start. 18:24:43 ravster, don't bother learning about optimizations until you know how to program. :) 18:25:15 I've gotten to the second 'practical' section . Thanks, I was just curious. Learning in a systematic way was never my strong point :) 18:25:53 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F44A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 18:26:18 ravster - your probably thinking of 'declaim' 18:26:21 that's alright, just leave the optimization until later. anyway. symbols point to data. kind-of like pointers. data is typed, but the symbol itself is not. 18:26:26 which does allow you to give hints to the compiler 18:26:44 but as tic says this _really_ isnt something you need to worry about most of the time 18:26:58 :) 18:27:08 ravster: this is starting in the wrong end but you could do:(defvar *foo* 5) (declaim (type fixnum *foo*)) 18:27:09 tic: Wait, what? Of course symbols are typed. They're of type SYMBOL. It's -variables- that aren't typed. :-P 18:27:45 ravster: but there is no guarantee that a compiler will care abiout it at all 18:29:24 Also no guarantees that a compiler, even if it does care, will be able to do anything with the information. 18:29:28 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 18:30:04 I see. Thanks all. 18:30:17 The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087DCD4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:41 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 18:30:44 nyef: and a defvar is dynamic so the compiler probably shouldnt care :) 18:31:17 Fufie1: Why not? 18:32:11 What the declaim says is "this variable will always contain a value of this type". To use a value of a different type is then an error that can be checked for. 18:32:20 cost of checking up the stack is pretty high and one probably would want it boxed anyway 18:32:23 -!- The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087DCD4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:32:32 sure, error-checking might be useful 18:32:42 The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087DCD4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:26 Now, would you also attempt to use that same logic for a defparameter? 18:33:49 Because the only difference between a defvar and a defparameter is what happens if the symbol is already bound. 18:34:03 And it is -very- useful to declaim types for a defparameter. 18:34:13 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:37:38 sohail [n=Sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:07 nyef, meh! (but thanks for clarifying) 18:38:21 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 18:39:03 nyef, why's it useful for defparameter? 18:39:13 ginstre [n=ginstre@dslb-084-059-206-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:48 mmh, can anyone help me? 18:39:50 Consider an explicit-boxing scenario for floats or longish integers. 18:39:58 Nickyy: Don't ask to ask. 18:40:19 schme: Nickyy didn't. The question is in the scrollback. 18:40:24 oh! 18:40:31 Nickyy: Sorry :) 18:40:44 it's okay ;) 18:40:52 nickyy - when you've polished your small Lisp program, run it with a RAM-light implementation. 18:40:53 The problem is, there's no good solution for that in SBCL. 18:41:18 poet [n=tim@64.198.227.140] has joined #lisp 18:41:23 so, what implementation do you guys suggest? 18:41:56 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-204-206.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:41:59 try ecl or clisp. 18:42:16 Or maybe keep sbcl running and with a dozen threads ;) 18:42:32 yeah, have a single image-that-does-the-work and have your small scripts ask it to do that work. 18:42:58 okay, thanks again. 18:43:08 I'll try that. 18:43:12 theoffset [n=ismael@201-130-230-208-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 18:43:50 Nickyy: Starting, running, stopping, restarting [...] is not lisp's strong point :) 18:43:56 nickyy - you might still develop with SBCL. It's stricter, has better debugging tools, complains about more things. 18:44:04 *schme* waits for someone to point him to the lisp that does exactly that awesomly well. 18:44:18 schme: ... NewLISP? 18:44:22 My god. 18:44:55 Speaking of funny things there. I see amazon is selling Let Over Lambda. I got the impression that books was a joke? 18:45:01 schme - well, I already mentioned ecl and clisp. 18:45:01 Also it has 5 stars! 18:45:12 ayrnieu: clisp is not very good for that either though :) 18:45:32 schme, me too! confusing. is anyone buying the most elite book evar? 18:45:32 I'd suggest WCL, but I don't know that it's maintained these days... 18:45:42 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:54 I'm not so familiar with clisp, but I thought it was good for that. Where does it fail? 18:46:33 It's not so much that it fails, it's just not as good as having a binary without a whole virtual machine to load :) 18:47:43 There are plenty of "wow, that is cool" moments and useful constructs demonstrated, that will probably make it into the reader's toolkit. [...] 18:47:46 There are plenty of "wow, that is cool" moments and useful constructs demonstrated, that will probably make it into the reader's toolkit. [...] I was inspired by this book. 18:47:49 oh 18:47:49 sorry. 18:47:50 hmm.. 18:47:53 double paste 18:47:59 I'll go back to kicking mcclim into submission then. 18:48:06 saikat [n=saikat@99.48.51.134] has joined #lisp 18:48:15 Heh. I've been trying to kick lisppaste into submission. 18:48:22 so is NewLISP an actual lisp implementation, or is it a cultural snufalufagus? 18:48:38 Fade: ... It exists, but it's not Lisp as we know it. 18:49:20 tic: Not only that. When I check it at amazon I get "Frequetly bought together: LOL + AMOP + the Keene OO book" :) 18:49:32 heh. k. I've only ever seen it mentioned farcically, so I thought maybe it was just a joke. :) 18:49:45 Fade: Because it -is- a farce? 18:49:45 `Joke' is indeed the technical classification of newLisp. 18:50:42 schme, noes :( The Holy Trinity is PCL + AMOP + Keene 18:50:51 Not anymore ;) 18:50:52 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:51:19 Shouldn't it be PAIP + AMOP + Keene? 18:51:42 Though I have my doubts about amazons algorithm for figuring out which books are frequently bought together. Somehow I think they just want to sell more books. 18:51:42 Hm. Perhaps, depnds on where you're coming from. 18:51:56 nyef, it should in either case be a book that starts with P, and not L 18:52:01 s/either/any/ 18:52:03 *schme* pops irc off to an unseen workspace. back to SLIME :) 18:57:18 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-223.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:19 ok, I read up on clbuild, sounds easy and portable. Do alot of people here who might otherwise roll their own use it? 18:57:57 hell I might just try clbuild on os x and see what I get 18:58:01 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.158.80] has quit ["im bored. im stoned. im drunk. i am so cool, i am so heavy metal no other person in the world is more metal than ] 18:58:04 I use it. I think antifuchs still uses it. 18:58:30 it's pretty cool, haven't updated it in a while though 18:58:36 (mostly for lack of time) 18:58:38 it's a bit of a pain if the image you're working with needs systems that aren't already included in clbuild, but other than that, it works pretty well. 18:59:12 it's not too hard to pull them in - you just have to find a vcs repo somewhere 18:59:18 *nod* 18:59:23 -!- theoffset [n=ismael@201-130-230-208-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has left #lisp 19:00:15 MinnowTaur: is your OSX machine powerPC? 19:00:47 no, I've a 2006 mac pro 19:00:52 ah, ok. 19:01:14 on my OSX box, I had to do some futzing around to get clbuild to love CCL; it's pretty sbcl focused. 19:01:28 ccl works better on powerpc machines. 19:01:39 chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.161.1.137] has joined #lisp 19:03:09 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:29 theoffset [n=ismael@201-130-230-208-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 19:04:47 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:29 what are the slime commands/options that show up when you press , called? 19:05:47 "slime commands", I think... 19:05:48 i need to add a few more to push/pop *package* 19:08:20 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:24 -!- Nickyy [n=nick@p4FD3DEAF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 19:10:13 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:26 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:11:35 -!- iStig [n=stig@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:13:44 fusss - look at slime-repl-shortcuts-table 19:14:26 AKA slime-repl-shortcut-table 19:15:03 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 19:15:18 alright, brb 19:17:56 -!- yoonkn [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.71] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:18:10 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:19:15 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:19:38 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:20:19 example: (pushnew [cl-struct-slime-repl-shortcut my-slime-hello ("hello" "hi") (lambda () (interactive) (message "Hello!")) "Say hello"] slime-repl-shortcut-table) 19:22:39 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 19:24:50 yoonkn [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.71] has joined #lisp 19:25:03 huh, or just (make-slime-repl-shortcut ...); it's a cl-emacs defstruct. 19:27:05 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.161.1.137] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:29:19 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 19:30:32 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp474.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:31:29 well. newlisp is bizarre. 19:32:49 Fucusa [n=omistaja@h003087.gprs.dnafinland.fi] has joined #lisp 19:34:03 rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:35:53 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:54 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:36:11 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:36:46 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.160.184] has joined #lisp 19:37:52 I'm having a bit of a brain bending moment here, what's the best way to turn a list into a circular list? 19:38:03 I know I can do it with (nconc mylist mylist) 19:38:08 (setf cdr), perhaps? 19:38:42 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-204-206.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:38:53 what about the #1=(foo . #1#) trick? 19:39:18 I've seen that before, what does that exactly mean? 19:39:27 (setf (cdr (last mylist)) mylist) 19:39:40 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:39:57 -!- iaindalton [n=user@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:39:57 Doesn't last return the CAR of the last cons? 19:40:09 i thought so.. 19:40:12 Or am I misremembering? 19:40:20 nyef: no, it returns the last cons. 19:40:22 (last '(1 2 3 4)) => (4) 19:40:22 nyef: many make that mistake :D 19:40:31 doh 19:40:37 last is a bit annoying :-\ 19:40:44 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:40:55 nyef: it's what I'd have expected, to be honest 19:41:00 So, for all these optoins, is there oen that's better than the other? If so, why? 19:41:13 options* 19:41:17 one* 19:41:19 Draggor: It's one of those "it depends on what you're doing" things. 19:42:15 Say I have a list of names of people, and they'll be sitting at a circular table. I want to be able to easily go round and round. 19:42:22 I figured a circular list is what I'd want 19:43:43 you could use a vector of people and use mod 19:44:14 And then there's the question of how you're getting your list of people in the first place... 19:44:32 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:44:40 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:44:49 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:45:00 (setf (cdr (last mylist)) mylist) drops clisp into a loop. 19:45:40 Fade: (setf *print-circle* t) 19:46:13 ahh. thanks 19:46:15 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host207-200-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 19:47:33 Draggor - (let ((vector #(a b c d))) (loop for n upto 10 collect (elt vector (mod n (length vector))))) => (A B C D A B C D A B C) 19:49:38 or you could hide all this in a generator that you can fetch the circular-next person from, add people to, remove people from, etc. Then you could use a cute but troublesome data structure, if you really want, and at least strictly limit access to it. 19:52:13 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:55:07 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 19:55:28 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:56:16 -!- thom__ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:56:26 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.34.238] has joined #lisp 19:56:37 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:45 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:25 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:00:47 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 20:04:35 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:07:26 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit ["leaving"] 20:07:49 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 20:11:28 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 20:11:36 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [] 20:12:22 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 20:14:32 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-130-53-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:16:37 robsynnot [n=irchon@mobileinternet2.o2.ie] has joined #lisp 20:18:35 -!- robsynnot [n=irchon@mobileinternet2.o2.ie] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:28 peddie [n=peddie@cpe-076-182-103-193.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:35 -!- Fucusa [n=omistaja@h003087.gprs.dnafinland.fi] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:20:56 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-157-87.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:23:02 -!- ginstre [n=ginstre@dslb-084-059-206-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 20:23:05 elurin [n=user@88.231.217.199] has joined #lisp 20:23:42 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 20:23:49 younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 20:26:51 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-150-128.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:26:56 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["The best way to predict the future is to build it."] 20:29:50 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 20:33:04 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:22 jrockway_ [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 20:34:39 -!- jrockway_ [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has left #lisp 20:36:47 -!- sphix [n=msphix@aaqi2.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:38:27 fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA675.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:11 finis [n=mkr@89-201-228-158.dsl.optinet.hr] has joined #lisp 20:39:35 -!- finis [n=mkr@89-201-228-158.dsl.optinet.hr] has quit [Client Quit] 20:41:15 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-80-167.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:43:21 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-40-48.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 20:45:42 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633876.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 20:46:06 jrockway_ [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 20:46:17 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 20:47:37 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [Client Quit] 20:49:21 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:50:16 Is there something like an elementp for hashmaps in the standard (common lisp) lib (sample implementation http://paste.lisp.org/display/75534)? 20:50:46 "What's a hashmap?" 20:51:15 fiveop: do you mean a hash table? 20:51:23 May we introduce you to NTH-VALUE ? 20:51:32 :D 20:51:34 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:00 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.160.184] has quit [] 20:52:56 cryptic as usual 20:53:23 Anyway, no, there is no HASH-TABLE-CONTAINS-KEY function beyond mere GETHASH. 20:54:01 fiveop: there's the second return value of GETHASH 20:54:07 If you do need it, you know how to write it... in at least two ways, and coming up with another two is easy enough. 20:55:02 -!- peddie [n=peddie@cpe-076-182-103-193.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:55:08 -!- jrockway_ [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit ["leaving"] 20:55:34 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:56:31 sykopomp: ye hashtable 20:56:54 fiveop: nyef answered your question. That said, it's trivial to implement. 20:57:03 yes it is 20:57:47 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:36 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-41-137.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:58:45 I just wondered, whether there already is a concise function, and after looking through obvious names in the hyperspec, thought if I missed it, someone here would know 20:58:58 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:59:16 clhs 18_aa 20:59:16 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 18_aa. 20:59:25 *ayrnieu* shrugs. 20:59:58 clhs 18.1.1 20:59:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/18_aa.htm 21:00:23 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.1.67] has left #lisp 21:03:32 While I see mechanically in the spec what "the" does, where in practice is it used by the programmer? As an optimization? A filter? An assertion of types? 21:03:59 Modius: an optimization 21:04:02 thanks for the nth-value hint 21:05:40 Modius: As an optimization sometimes, and as an assertion of types sometimes. 21:05:57 SBCL will often treat it as both. 21:06:27 (Declarations are assertions... but once the assertion is past, "hey, this is an unsigned-byte 32, I know what to do with this!") 21:06:46 lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:06:51 nyef: I thought the prevailing wisdom was to never treat declarations as assertions, but to assert explicitly with check-type 21:08:17 I'm trying to read-from-string, but that function capitalizes everything in the string and I need the same capitalization as currently in the string. Does anyone know an easy way around this? 21:08:48 Zoba: what do you want as a result? 21:09:40 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:09:58 (read-from-string "(TesT sTrinG)") -> (TesT sTrinG) 21:10:10 but what I'm getting is (TEST STRING) 21:10:34 Zoba: if you want to preserve capitalization, you'll end up with (|TesT| |sTrinG|) 21:10:45 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:10:46 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:10:58 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:01 I'm not sure what those bars mean, but I could probably deal with those better than all caps 21:11:30 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:11:35 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb435e.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:12:06 Zoba: it's nearly always the wrong thing to do, but if you insist, you can (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) 21:12:13 Zoba: the reader capitalizes everything it reads by default. Why are you having problems with the capitalization, though? 21:12:33 Tordek [n=tordek@host186.190-138-166.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:13:10 I am using OpenCyc and reading in names of concepts, and then have to use those names to manipulate them later and OpenCyc doesn't recognize them if they don't match case. 21:13:12 how do you get the sap of an object ? (get-sap (make-array 10)) 21:13:26 lhz: get-lisp-obj-address 21:13:49 ... Dare I ask what you're playing at? 21:14:03 dlowe, thanks very much. What other issues will it cause since it is nearly always the wrong thing to do? 21:14:22 Zoba: you'll have to type CL function names in uppercase 21:14:41 lhz: that'll very likely not do what you want. 21:14:45 Zoba: you may want to consider just using strings for the names of concepts. 21:14:58 Zoba: the point is, symbols shouldn't really be treated like strings 21:15:19 clhs + 21:15:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pl.htm 21:15:54 nyef: the sbcl-ffi says "The burden can be placed on the foreign program" .. so I thought (define-alien-routine "foo" void (a (* t))) and then (foo (sb-impl::get-lisp-obj-address (make-array 10))) 21:16:09 Ok, thanks for the tips. Come to think of it, I don't know why I don't just keep them as strings...its been a few months since I made that decision 21:16:27 lhz: Burden of what? 21:17:09 nyef: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Introduction-to-the-Foreign-Function-Interface.html 21:18:33 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:18:41 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:11 Ah, right... Its because data passed between OpenCyc and lisp is through sockets and when I get back a list of Cyc concepts I need to be able to manipulate the list. If I don't do read-from-string it is just a string that looks like a list. 21:19:20 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:19:34 painful 21:20:18 lhz: Ah. 21:20:33 you ought to define a fale #$ reader 21:20:36 I'm trying to pass a buffer to recv and get the result back for handling in lisp. How would you do it ? 21:20:56 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:58 Zoba: you ought to define a little #$ reader 21:21:01 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:21:03 I'd start by looking for an sb-bsd-sockets function for it. 21:21:39 nyef: If you would like to avoid any copying ? 21:21:48 Zoba: that starts the :PRESERVE case 21:22:05 lhz: Try reading the complete section. "There are three common approaches [...] SBCL [...] relies primarily on the automatic conversion and direct manipulation approaches" (i.e. *not* placing the burden of bridging the gap on foreign functions) 21:22:05 second while i find it 21:22:19 dmiles_afk, it is looking like I may be forced to. Up to now, everything has been working. I considered doing it before, but you sent me an example #$ reader that was really long, so I got scared off 21:22:42 ah now sounds familiar 21:22:49 lhz: Avoid any copying... how? 21:23:27 lhz: sb-bsd-sockets:socket-receive takes a BUFFER argument that can be used as pre-allocated storage. 21:24:42 nyef: yeah, but data is recv'ed into a malloced buffer first. 21:24:44 nyef: socket-receive has an copy-buffer glaring at me.. 21:24:49 Ahh, okay. 21:25:01 Then I'd use vector-sap. 21:25:12 lhz: I'd try and adapt receive to use with-vector-sap like socket-send. 21:25:13 Or whatever it's called. 21:25:24 but my primary concern is that the socket is opened in an way that only allows write or recv to send the data. 21:25:28 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:44 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-092-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:32 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:28:48 I meant that the data is mangled so sendto and recvfrom would (probably) barf.. Anyway thanks nyef and pkhuong my previous example with vector-sap instead of get-lisp-obj-address works. 21:29:17 Beket [n=stathis@ppp16-146.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:30:57 Zoba: http://paste.lisp.org/display/75537 21:31:09 that one might be simpler 21:31:50 cl-defstruct = defstruct 21:33:26 thanks dmiles_afk, this looks like it could work well. Thanks again, you're always so helpful! 21:33:46 cla-lambda = lambda 21:35:17 n/p .. jus thope more people doin glisp will use cyc 21:36:13 i just hope more people doing lisp will use cyc (i dont get preview of what i am going to send to irc since cyc is pregging my cpu 21:37:46 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@73.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 21:40:34 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:35 rutski [n=rutski@ool-44c66f35.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:19 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:40 "pregging"? I have this horrible mental image of some half-cyc, half-cpu crossbreed rugrats making nuisances of themselves... 21:42:57 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:04 :) pegging 21:43:11 On that note: http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/177665/Richard-Goodsell-Im-the-real-daddy-Alfie-and-I-want-a-DNA-test-to-prove-it.html *sigh* If only cyc could breed. 21:43:17 Yeah, I figured, but the mental image just had to be shared. 21:43:52 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:43:57 So, cyc, eh? Is it perhaps OpenCyc? Can anyone have access or is this the official cyc and I can't play? 21:44:06 What's cyc? 21:44:21 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:43 An enCYClopedia of common knowledge. It's a 20 year (thus far) project to build the basis necessary for a useful AI. 21:44:55 jso: http://researchcyc.cyc.com/apply 21:44:56 http://www.cyc.com/ 21:45:06 I remember reading about that a long time ago 21:45:16 dmiles_afk: Thanks! 21:45:31 people should not bother with opencyc 21:45:39 No kidding!!! 21:45:58 jso: thanks for the link 21:46:37 How would I go about seeding a random state? 21:46:45 -!- antoinevg_ is now known as antoinevg 21:47:06 make-random-state 21:47:06 Yeah, I am only using OpenCyc until my advisor does the paperwork and it gets processed 21:47:15 (paperwork for research cyc) 21:47:15 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-148-90.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:47:26 ayrnieu: (make-random-state t) ? 21:47:27 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 21:47:53 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:19 sepis - what are you asking me? 21:48:58 hmm, how come set_forwarding_pointer() takes a lispoj but forwarding_pointer_value() returns a lispobj*? 21:49:21 s/lispoj/lispobj 21:49:29 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 21:49:39 ayrnieu: nothing really. But afaik it needs t as parameter 21:49:41 HG` [n=wells@222-152-94-244.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:49:44 -!- HG` [n=wells@222-152-94-244.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 21:49:47 ayrnieu: maybe I'm wrong 21:50:03 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:50:04 clhs make-random-state 21:50:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_rnd.htm 21:50:53 luis: Might have something to do with the actual use of forwarding_pointer_value()? 21:53:26 nyef: on most places it's being casted onto a lispobj, IIUC. 21:54:01 minion: Paste 75537? 21:54:02 Paste number 75537: "SET-DISPATCH-MACRO-CHARACTER #\# #\$ " by dmiles in None. http://paste.lisp.org/display/75537 21:54:10 Hrm. 21:55:44 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:55:50 Ah, good, it is using FIND-PASTE. 21:56:55 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:35 though I don't think I understand what's going on with LOW_WORD 21:57:39 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:56 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:18 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:58 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 22:02:44 -!- Fufie1 [n=Frog@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 22:06:13 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 22:08:58 workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:12:49 dmiles_afk: that's horrible 22:13:29 that find-or-create doesnt keep a table? 22:14:11 hrm, I thought there was a *read-case* variable, but it seems it's my memory which played a trick on me 22:14:26 *ayrnieu* looked for one, too. 22:15:48 clhs readtable-case 22:15:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rdtabl.htm 22:15:53 yeah that, but also the reason is #'find-or-create-constant is a java function in the non socket stub-system 22:16:54 dmiles_afk: defstructs generates preciate functions by default 22:17:38 thats why make-constant isnt the default 22:17:56 ah .. the constant-p 22:18:32 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-213.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:19:42 the reason messing with the readtable-case is i wasnt for sure if #'read could be made case sensitive 22:20:03 if there was an option 22:20:46 was trying to decide if #$(isa Fido Dog) should be legal for (#$isa #$Fido #$Dog) 22:21:35 thats how KM knowledge machine lets it work.. but not Cyc 22:22:17 but thats the shortened version. the loger version calls a subthingy that lets the #$(...) the long one that Zoba remembers 22:22:36 loger/longer 22:23:51 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:25:53 peddie [n=peddie@cpe-076-182-103-193.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:08 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit ["leaving"] 22:26:12 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:26:30 dmiles_afk: If the whole reader is made case sensitive it can. 22:27:33 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:29:00 (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) 22:30:14 Of couce this could wreck havoc with you library functions so you better copy-readtable and useit in a package spesific manner. 22:30:36 so i guess it works out.. probly the real right thing to do is make a coy of the readtable 22:30:45 yeah 22:31:33 i think the version i end up using in real life .. i started to copy-readtable stored in a gobal variable 22:31:47 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:31:52 but i also then realized i need to almost copy ity every time 22:32:01 Right, it's still somewhat kludgy solution. 22:32:04 -!- peddie [n=peddie@cpe-076-182-103-193.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:32:19 every time? just once in the initialization of the global variable 22:33:16 well becasue i was only copying the intial side effects expected in the readtable at start (defconstant..) so there are cases that the readtable had been further chaged 22:33:29 changed 22:33:54 so to really get that recusiveness needed to be at each #$ 22:34:01 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:34:15 Right, I wouldn't have expected those changes would really change what you're trying to read with #$ 22:34:24 use defvar here unless you want to execute the command every time you compile the file 22:34:28 like if you only want to read case-preserving symbols 22:34:56 -!- rutski [n=rutski@ool-44c66f35.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 22:35:10 yeah :).. its easy to invent ways to mess it up.. but hard to use these inventions usefully in real life 22:36:29 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.34.238] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:41 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:37:07 easy to invent ways to mess it up = fnny things that can happen inside the #$ 22:37:23 agreed 22:38:26 *younder* regards it as a test of courage.. Like a initialization rite to manhood. 22:38:46 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-225.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:39:10 this code is mainly just a workaroound for those stuck with opencyc and not researchcyc 22:39:47 rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:39:49 opencyc if you want lisp you have to use a real lisp over a socket.. in researchcyc.. you can use a 80,000 function api 22:41:00 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 22:41:50 and hopefully one day soon researchcyc will run common lisp as well 22:42:38 i have a version i merged with abcl to get the common-lisp so it does.. but hasnt made it to an official level 22:44:37 its such an ugly merge.. abcl.Package subclassing SubLPackage .. SubLString subclassing SimpleString subclassing SubLStringImpl 22:45:00 subclassing AbstractString 22:47:52 subclassing SubLVector subclass LispVector subclassing AbstractSubLVector subclassing AbstractVector subclassing AbstractSubLLispObject sublcassing LispObject subclasing AbstractSubLObject implementing SubLObject 22:47:59 ok 'nough of that 22:48:24 java is wonderfull 22:50:21 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host205.190-137-244.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:50:22 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:17 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:54:45 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@p579EA675.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:56:47 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-092-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:45 sbcl(1.0.22 linux)/slime: what do i have to search for / read if i want to us save-lisp-and-die (or another function) to create an image which can be used with slime? 23:01:53 is it sufficient to do (mapc 'require '(sb-bsd-sockets sb-posix sb-introspect sb-cltl2 asdf)) before s-l-a-d? 23:03:38 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host186.190-138-166.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:04:21 -!- ravster [n=user@dsl-67-212-23-238.acanac.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:09:58 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-211.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:10:28 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 23:10:34 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [] 23:12:36 segyr [n=terje@ti311110a080-4147.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:16:32 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:20 trebor_dki: why should that be necessary? 23:19:25 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-211.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:20:50 -!- elurin [n=user@88.231.217.199] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:07 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:30:32 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:08 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:32:57 hefner: one can use the image of s-l-a-d in slime directly? besides this - i tried to kill all other (sbcl-)threads by using (progn (dolist (thread (sb-thread:list-all-threads)) (unless (eq thread sb-thread:*current-thread*) (sb-thread:terminate-thread thread))) (s-l-a-d ...)) which did not work. can you give me a hint? 23:33:53 trebor_dki: One thing you might try is building your image from outside of slime, while still loading in swank. 23:34:56 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 23:36:59 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-59-51.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:37:03 Can someone explain to me why Lisp puts | around variable variable names when changing the readtable? 23:37:22 scratch one of those "variable"s 23:37:25 Zoba: To support something known as "print-read consistency". 23:37:52 Is there a way I can get rid of them and still preserve the case of whats inside the | ? 23:38:40 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:36 -!- segyr [n=terje@ti311110a080-4147.bb.online.no] has quit [] 23:40:50 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-40-48.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:41:08 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:32 peddie [n=peddie@cpe-076-182-103-193.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:46 -!- sysfault [n=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:44:10 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45:53 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp16-146.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:24 Zoba: It rather depends on exactly what you're doing, and why. 23:51:07 Zoba: So, the problem is that the escapes show up on the output side, or that they need to show up in your source code? 23:51:42 When you say escapes do you mean the | ? 23:51:45 Yes. 23:52:20 sysfault [n=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 23:52:29 (symbol-name '|foo|)? 23:53:05 trebor_dki: did you figure it out? 23:53:08 (princ '|foo|) => foo 23:53:54 (princ '(|a| |b| |c|)) => (a b c) 23:54:01 They shouldn't exist anywhere. After I read-from-string the string I received through the socket, I need to use the names of the items in the list and they have to match what the sending side has and if they arent the same case, or if they have | attached to them, they wont match. 23:54:58 agh, I've got to go now but thanks for the assistance again guys. 23:55:24 Zoba will slap his forehead when he figures it out 23:56:16 Quite possibly. 23:56:52 http://github.com/sykopomp/sheeple/blob/af22427fbeb43dd4d9013558da107b5215b9d6e0/sheeplette/sheep-metasheep.png This is what I'm stuck on :P 23:57:25 metametameta 23:57:30 woooo 23:58:03 ... But metasheep are still sheep, aren't they? 23:58:08 exactly 23:58:59 the CLOS MOP trick of having a circularity at standard-class doesn't quite work, since each metaobject is a full object itself. 23:59:15 and the metaobject is just an object whose properties are the object they're a metaobject of 23:59:22 So... wouldn't it be it's own metasheep, or wouldn't there be a metametasheep that was its own metasheep (or had its metasheep have it as its metasheep.) 23:59:52 it would have to be a metametasheep, and it would keep going like that