00:01:54 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:30 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:03:04 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 00:03:14 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:04:16 -!- Lou__ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:04:19 -!- Ausente is now known as dalton 00:04:44 Lou__ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 00:11:10 -!- schmx [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:11:48 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has left #lisp 00:14:38 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:59 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A432.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:23:44 -!- crod [n=cmell@EM114-48-5-85.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:23:46 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:24:38 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:26:58 loxs[] [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 00:27:53 Revised draft, just the backtrace stuff left to do: http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/table-based-unwind-and-sbcl.txt 00:28:10 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C548.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:14 -!- tsuru [n=user@66.199.17.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:04 loxs[away] [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 00:31:23 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:34:12 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has joined #lisp 00:35:10 schme [n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:37:42 -!- dalton is now known as Ausente 00:38:14 -!- milanj- [n=milan@77.46.169.165] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:41:45 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:44 crod [n=cmell@EM114-48-22-99.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:43:06 nyef: http://lisphacker.com => "It works!" 00:43:23 sykopomp: I know. It's on my list to sort out later. 00:43:35 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-109-153.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:43:43 nevermind then, just a heads-up :) 00:45:51 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:46:03 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:47 So... no comments on the actual document? 00:46:58 *drewc* is still reading 00:47:02 I don't understand any of it :( 00:47:24 -!- loxs[] [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:47:46 And foom is probably not-here or something. 00:48:42 I reading it, I like it, although I'm a bit mystified at your treatment of ForceUnwind as a possibile way to implement lisp-raised unwinds instead of as an external feature which may need interoperability consideration. 00:49:38 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:50:10 foom: I thought what I did was explain why it -wasn't- a possible way to implement lisp-raised unwinds. 00:50:21 right, I'd just never even considered that as a possibility 00:50:42 I thought you were earlier talking about issues with its interoperability considering someone *else* called it, and it was traversing through lisp frames 00:50:50 I was. 00:51:06 okay then, I guess I wasn't confused. :) 00:51:17 It was easy to dismiss as a possibility, but the argument still needed to be laid out. 00:51:34 nyef: the article does not define "personality" 00:51:49 kpreid: defined in the dwarf specs 00:51:53 kpreid: Oh, right "personality routine"? That's from the... Yeah, that. 00:52:04 it's sticking out as the thing that I don't understand 00:52:18 whereas the rest of it is straightforward enough, at least for the gist 00:52:59 the compiler which generates a function can associate a routine with it which is responsible for determining if an exception should land there among other things 00:53:15 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:55:30 I realized a few minutes ago that any Windoes x64 port absolutely needs the unwind information, otherwise it would never be able to find the exception handler that deals with internal-errors and the GC faults and such. 00:56:10 (And, of course, the Windows x64 unwind information uses a completely different format.) 00:56:45 (Okay, more like half an hour ago.) 01:00:19 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:01:24 btw, there are some ABI functions which aren't in the ABI spec which are probably relevant 01:01:38 _Unwind_Resume_or_Rethrow 01:02:09 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-12-32.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:02:11 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:13 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 01:02:15 and _Unwind_Backtrace 01:02:46 I don't think you ever need to call _Unwind_Find_FDE yourself 01:02:56 you should be able to use the library for all unwind data interpretation 01:03:04 (probably) 01:03:05 That might be convenient, certainly. 01:03:33 anyone know who does http://twitter.com/planet_lisp ? 01:03:43 the first one is needed to make forced unwind work for catch(...) { throw; } 01:03:58 the throw in there calls _Unwind_Resume_or_Rethrow instead of _Unwind_RaiseException 01:04:15 not sure if that's relevant to lisp 01:05:08 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:10 It's also not necessary if the landing pad can do its dispatch appropriately. 01:05:43 And I'm not seeing _Unwind_Backtrace in the libgcc sources that I found. 01:05:56 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:07:55 It's in my /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 with a symbol version of GCC_3.3 01:08:06 Hunh. 01:08:17 I'm sure it was in the source I was looking at once, but I don't have that handy right now 01:08:34 Strings sees it too in my installed copy. 01:10:23 I recall finding a reason why _Unwind_Resume_or_Rethrow was needed once, but I'm not sure I see why you wouldn't just be able to decide which to call yourself right now. :) 01:10:43 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:10:51 lemonodor: I don't, but that's an interesting mangling of Fare's name 01:11:24 tChAnDy [n=debian@201-67-164-25.bnut3703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:11:41 kpreid: heh, i didn't even notice that. does that mean it's not fully automated? weird. 01:11:51 it's uniform 01:11:55 i was just going to recommend that they add links to posts. 01:12:00 it appears to drop two characters after each non-ascii 01:12:38 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 01:13:00 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-240-104.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 01:15:31 ah, here's the responsible party: http://netzhansa.blogspot.com/2008/10/trying-clojure.html 01:15:43 powered by clojure 01:16:03 Typical, the ARM ehabi is a badly-repackaged version of the same unwind API. :-/ 01:21:26 Is anyone in the montreal area available to help with the computer science games on march 6th-8th? 01:24:04 foom: So, other than _Unwind_Backtrace and the _Unwind_Resume_or_Rethrow thing, it looks reasonable so far? 01:24:33 poet [n=chatzill@vpn3-14511.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 01:25:12 ... Hunh. We may not need all that compiler and runtime support after all: The personality routine could grab for the debug-funs! 01:27:13 errr 01:28:09 not sure i follow that. 01:28:28 Well, half the point of doing this is "cheaper" unwind-protects, right? 01:28:33 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 01:28:35 that would be nice, yes 01:29:10 The personality routine, which is written in real code, not DWARF opcodes, makes the decision to handle or not handle a frame, right? 01:29:16 yes 01:30:23 So as long as the unwinder can do the unwinder, the personality routine can do whatever it wants to decide if it should handle or not, right? 01:31:04 right. but the way you get cheaper unwind-protect is to not do so much duplicated register saving 01:31:09 because your unwinder is smart 01:31:40 but to use the smart unwinder which is able to restore all registers, you need to have the compiler actually write the DWARF opcodes that say how to do that 01:37:16 okay, gotta run. ttyl 01:37:25 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 01:38:03 We "just" have to have the personality routine find the code-component for the IP address it's given, go from there to the debug-fun, and then we have the compiler store the appropriate information in the debug-fun. 01:38:06 Yes, it makes unwind even more stupidly expensive when it happens, but it would make setting up the UWPs cheaper. 01:38:15 Also means that separate FDEs becomes an optimization, not a necessity. 01:38:29 ... This also means that said potential optimization could be implemented -without- going through the platform exception-handling system, provided you're willing to take the hit for alien frames. 01:38:42 Bye, then. 01:39:33 -!- EvanR_ is now known as EvanR 01:39:49 Hrm. That has possible applications for unbinding specials, actually. 01:40:13 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-136-81.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:40:31 *nyef* smirks. 01:40:37 And unwind-to-frame-and-call. 01:42:33 -!- poet [n=chatzill@vpn3-14511.near.uiuc.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008121622]"] 01:48:49 Hrm... 01:48:54 clhs catch 01:48:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_catch.htm 01:49:08 Oh, hell. 01:49:35 That basically reduces the storage overhead of a catch-block to the bloody tag value. 01:50:34 And unwind blocks are -free-. 01:52:02 can I have one? 01:52:29 Only if your time has no value. :-P 01:53:34 if it sounds too good to be true it usually is. 01:53:45 Hrm. Only real catch I can think of right now is PROGV... 01:54:25 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:54:56 ... This can actually be done. Without the system unwinder, at that. 01:55:40 nyef: are catch blocks used very often? 01:56:01 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:16 kpreid: All non-local exits are, at the very least, unwind-blocks. 01:56:35 -!- awaykos is now known as awayekos 01:56:42 I meant CATCH specifically 01:56:49 ... Not sure, actually. 01:57:01 I have the feeling they aren't 01:57:07 is there a way to define a new lisp type that even CLOS would recognize, without using CLOS, and based on an arbitrary predicate? 01:57:12 that dynamically scoped control flow isn't that interesting 01:57:18 s/even// 01:57:31 sykopomp: CLOS doesn't "recognize types", it is defined on *classes* 01:57:46 sykopomp: also, CLOS is not a separable part of CL 01:57:53 true. 01:57:55 hm 01:58:00 sykopomp: So it's limited to built-in types, structures, and classes. 01:58:15 hm? 01:58:27 structure classes are classes and you can't dispatch on KEYWORD 01:58:48 Sorry, built-in classes. 01:58:57 right, I guess I'll find some workaround. 01:59:07 You can dispatch on integer, for example. 01:59:21 yeah, because of CLASS-OF 01:59:43 I guess I thought there might be some lower mechanism that I could use. 01:59:51 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0A5A.versanet.de] has left #lisp 01:59:57 sykopomp: no 02:00:04 benny [n=benny@i577A0A5A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:00:10 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 02:00:21 your hooks into the type and class systems are DEFCLASS, DEFSTRUCT, DEFTYPE, and SATISFIES 02:00:22 kpreid: thank you, then :) 02:00:31 oh and DEFINE-CONDITION 02:00:43 and deftype and satisfies don't seem to do this from what I read (and tried) 02:00:51 right. 02:01:01 ... What the hell is the catch-block size slot for? 02:01:01 DEFTYPE and SATISFIES pertain only to types, not classes 02:01:41 sykopomp: if you want to specialize on other than "this argument is of this class" then look into Krystof's user-defined-specializer work 02:01:52 (you can only *run* it on SBCL, but...) 02:02:28 kpreid: i'm working on my own thing as far as that goes... 02:02:46 what, your own generic function system? 02:02:51 yeah 02:03:02 beware, pcl is subtle and clever 02:03:16 PCL is bloody annoying. :-/ 02:03:28 don't expect to easiily match its performance 02:03:47 I'm not even touching PCL 02:03:55 (I did -- "I'm doing single dispatch on a semi-sealed class hierarchy, right? I can do this easily" -- and lost) 02:03:57 I'm writing a system completely separate from CLOS 02:04:25 I'm not saying that won't work, just that it won't be comparably fast 02:04:53 kpreid: Hey, want to see something neat? From an SBCL REPL, #'INSPECT something, then see what the value of - is at the inspect prompt over time. 02:04:56 tchandy_ [n=debian@201-41-202-14.bnut3703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:05:19 probably not, but the initial CLOS-backed implementation was fast enough, and running on SBCL, faster than plain CLOS in clisp. 02:05:24 with minimal optimizations. 02:05:49 now I'm just doing some cleanup on the file and testing to see if it bootstraps properly... 02:06:32 matley [n=matley@83.225.238.49] has joined #lisp 02:07:10 -!- tChAnDy [n=debian@201-67-164-25.bnut3703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:31 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-90.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:10:41 Okay, I'm going to see about getting some sleep. See you all tomorrow. 02:10:45 pkhuong: x86 02:10:50 nyef: goodnight 02:10:50 night nyef 02:10:55 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 02:14:05 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-149-76.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 02:14:21 slyrus: is your PPC closer than mine? 02:15:41 plan9 [n=stian@revenant.sletner.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:05 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:16 -!- mns [n=user@c-76-119-251-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:20:26 mns [n=user@c-76-119-251-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:15 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:26:42 julianfondren [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:08 -!- julianfondren is now known as ayrnieu 02:27:14 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 02:28:26 poet [n=chatzill@vpn3-14511.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 02:29:56 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-fa8f753050e3fa46] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:34:35 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:45:19 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:46:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 02:47:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:30 -!- younder [i=jpthing@84.202.158.137] has left #lisp 02:52:19 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:44 -!- poet [n=chatzill@vpn3-14511.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:56:29 benny` [n=benny@i577A027B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:57:37 poet [n=chatzill@vpn3-14511.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 03:03:23 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.140.34] has joined #lisp 03:05:56 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89.181.53.192] has joined #lisp 03:07:54 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0A5A.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:12:08 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:14:16 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 03:14:38 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:26 ice_four [n=ice_four@host81-152-107-212.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:39 Beket [n=stathis@ppp183-63.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 03:18:52 -!- poet [n=chatzill@vpn3-14511.near.uiuc.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008121622]"] 03:19:38 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 03:20:00 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.2] has joined #lisp 03:21:16 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:22:39 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:35 bhz- [n=redi@ool-182e4661.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:53 -!- awayekos is now known as awaykos 03:32:44 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:35 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 03:35:12 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:51 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp183-63.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:42:25 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:48:00 -!- CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:51:01 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 03:53:23 pkhuong: You need a PPC? 03:55:26 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:56:17 Good morning. 03:56:26 mornin' beach. 03:57:14 semka [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 03:58:23 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:59:21 wgl: no, I just need less laziness. 03:59:33 -!- plan9 [n=stian@revenant.sletner.com] has left #lisp 04:00:06 Ah. I have a recently purchased mac tower that I am bringing sbcl up on. But it is going slow, also due to laziness. 04:01:07 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:04:02 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:06:35 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:11:14 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-10.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 04:18:07 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [No route to host] 04:18:46 -!- pitui [n=pitui@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:19:05 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:19:54 lambder [n=lambder@adsl-75-3-143-240.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:22 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:21:54 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:24:10 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:24:44 -!- ice_four [n=ice_four@host81-152-107-212.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 04:26:22 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:26:47 ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:34 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:36:29 iaindalton [n=user@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:16 I'm reading Practical Common Lisp and the author says a function has the syntax: (function-name argument*) 04:37:20 What's the * mean? 04:37:34 iaindalton: multiple arguments 04:37:34 zero or more times 04:37:53 Ah 04:38:21 Thanks 04:38:24 ianmcorvidae: And if the author says that, he is wrong, because that is the syntax of a FUNCTION CALL, not of a function. 04:38:39 erm, I misspoke 04:38:52 "In other words, the basic syntax of a function call form is..." 04:38:56 is what he says 04:39:10 Yes, I didn't think he would say the wrong thing. 04:39:18 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@174.0.46.123] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:39:23 rumbleca [n=rumble@174.0.46.123] has joined #lisp 04:39:31 iaindalton: I was trying to encourage you to be careful about terminology. 04:40:11 The name of the song is called 'Haddock's Eyes'." 04:40:11 04:40:11 "Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" Alice said, trying to feel interested. 04:40:11 04:40:14 "No, you don't understand," the Knight said, looking a little vexed. "That's what the name is called. The name really is 'The Aged Aged Man'." 04:40:26 I'm feeling like Alice 04:40:56 I understand. It happens in the beginning. 04:42:05 hah. the page Google turned up for that quote goes on to say, "Those familiar with programming computers in higher-level languages will see there a clear delineation of the difference between a datum, the symbolic name of that datum, the address at which the datum is stored, and the symbolic name of that address." 04:42:35 Absolutely. 04:43:27 iaindalton: It is so much more true in Lisp where names of variables are symbols and symbols are first-class objects. 04:44:33 What's the difference between a name and a symbol? 04:46:10 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:48:10 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@89.181.53.192] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 04:49:11 The name of a variable is a symbol. The name of a symbol is a string :) 04:49:27 I am sounding more and more like the quote above. 04:50:21 Maybe an example would bring clarity (or not)? 04:51:00 It took me a while to grok pointers. Is this something like that? 04:51:08 ianmcorvidae: (defparameter x 10). The name of the variable is the symbol x. The symbol x is named "X". 04:51:23 Ahhhhh 04:51:27 Now that I understand 04:51:53 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:52:07 Does a name of a variable always resemble the name of a name of the variable? 04:52:18 name of the name, rather 04:53:04 if you get suspicious that 'x may be named "Y" or something, you can also (symbol-name 'x) to see. 04:53:45 iaindalton: Well, when I said "the symbol x", I was obliged to type something similar to its name, but a symbol is a very complex data structure, with a package, a property list, etc. So no, a symbol is a much more complicated thing than its name. 04:53:49 wait, let me try that in English: if you suspect that 'x may be named "Y" or something, you can run it by #'symbol-name 04:54:54 So we refer to a symbol by its name, because a symbol itself isn't something you can say? 04:55:05 Sounds right. 04:55:12 beach: The name of the song is called... 04:55:16 *iaindalton* sort of gets it 04:55:25 c.f. 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05:51:03 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:14 how would I read fortran-style data files into lisp? 05:59:46 is there some sort of break into list items by whitespace function? 05:59:49 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:00:57 check out split-sequence 06:01:31 what are fortran-style data files? 06:01:40 null padded fixed width records? 06:01:42 http://www.cliki.net/SPLIT-SEQUENCE 06:02:25 if so, I think subseq and trim make more sense than split-sequence. 06:03:01 string-trim , rather. 06:03:05 Remember that you can always use strings as streams, so you can tokenize them like any other input. 06:05:46 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:08:44 shurain [n=shurain@147.46.242.198] has joined #lisp 06:10:01 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:10:38 Beket [n=stathis@ppp183-63.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 06:14:59 -!- cads 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(ABCL accepts this but ignores the size, returning a (simple-vector 3).) Do I read the spec correctly? 06:27:48 name-and-options::= structure-name [[options]] ; options::= type-option ; type-option::= (:type type) ; type---one of the type specifiers list, vector, or (vector size), or some other type specifier defined by the implementation to be appropriate. 06:32:13 See the description for the :type option at the end of the Description section. That's an oversight. 06:34:14 aha. Thanks. 06:36:36 Fixing the representation size would pose difficulties for inclusion. 06:37:51 gio123 [n=gio123@94.43.22.145] has joined #lisp 06:37:59 inclusion of what? 06:38:03 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:38:10 In other structures. 06:38:23 Nachweis der allgem. Universitätsreife (Secondary School Leaving Certificate) 06:38:29 Bezeichnung / Notation: 06:38:34 does somebody knows what das notation means here? 06:44:20 -!- crod [n=cmell@EM114-48-22-99.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:45:09 crod [n=cmell@EM114-48-188-236.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:46:14 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.140.34] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:46:37 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 06:46:45 gio123, I'd translate it through Swedish as "role" 06:47:07 ?? 06:48:01 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:48:24 clhs listp 06:48:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_listp.htm 06:48:26 .. 06:48:59 what about that? 06:49:55 :} 06:50:22 <_8david> gio123: don't know how to translate it, but from its context it seems obvious that most germans would write "Abitur" into that field, austrians would write "Matura", etc. 06:52:50 _8david: could you pm me please 06:54:50 how do i check if an objcet is a real list, and not just a pair in disguise? 06:55:39 (and (cons a) (cons (cdr a)) ? 06:55:56 that would be a good "hack" 06:55:57 that's what I'd try with. 06:56:16 what about a list of one element? 06:56:35 (cons 'foo nil), no? 06:56:49 the alexandria library has a proper-list-p function 06:57:33 ah, thx lnostdal 06:57:39 manuel_, consp, I think. 06:57:52 tic: yep, sorry, early 06:58:31 Would not atom be useful? 06:58:48 jdz, yeah, cons nil returns false of course. 06:58:58 eno___ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-149-76.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:02 tic: consp, ofc :) 06:59:12 jdz, meh! 06:59:41 *tic* waits for ze brain to properly init 2, still at 0 it seems. 07:02:33 hmm... what does it mean when you get "error opening #P"/Users/sly/projects/sbcl.boinkor.net/mega1/tests/test-status.lisp-expr": No such file or directory" when trying to run tests? 07:02:54 oh wait, just the threads test. it means I don't have threads enabled. 07:02:56 whoops. 07:05:49 -!- eno___ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-149-76.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:10:29 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:10:56 -!- X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.79.242] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:11:57 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:12:27 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.23.54] has joined #lisp 07:17:20 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.107.50] has joined #lisp 07:19:39 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-119-084.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:50 aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 07:23:20 I'm trying to write a function that takes one required parameter, one optional keyword parameter, &rest, and &allow-other-keywords. The signature would be something like this: 07:23:41 (defun f (x &rest args &key (:name :dude) &allow-other-keywords) ...) 07:24:03 Is there a way to ensure the one specified keyword parameter doesn't end up in args? 07:30:13 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.23.54] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:31:35 charles__ [n=charles@c-65-96-184-228.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:37 Good morning. 07:31:41 what would be the best way of accomplishing an (apply or (list false false true)) -> #t type functionality 07:32:00 not that i know of, aggieben .. i do something like (defun test (x &rest args &key (a 1 a-supplied-p) &allow-other-keys) (remove-from-plistf args :a) ..) .. (remove-from-plistf is from alexandria again) 07:32:13 charles__: some 07:32:15 clhs some 07:32:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 07:32:26 ah thanks 07:33:07 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has joined #lisp 07:33:17 aggieben_ [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 07:35:12 -!- aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:36:06 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.155.56] has joined #lisp 07:36:57 lnostdal: thank 07:36:59 -!- gio123 [n=gio123@94.43.22.145] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:37:00 s 07:37:03 -!- aggieben_ is now known as aggieben 07:38:47 FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 07:38:50 Bribek [n=Bribek@0x573fd50a.arcnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:39:10 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 07:40:43 -!- charles__ [n=charles@c-65-96-184-228.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:40:53 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-204-206.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:43:41 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:44:02 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 07:45:02 -!- shurain [n=shurain@147.46.242.198] has left #lisp 07:52:49 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:53:28 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.140.34] has joined #lisp 07:58:14 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 08:04:11 alinpopa [n=alinpopa@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:04:58 -!- bhz- [n=redi@ool-182e4661.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:07:55 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:38 -!- alinpopa [n=alinpopa@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 08:10:54 alinpopa [n=alinpopa@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:11:05 -!- alinpopa [n=alinpopa@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 08:11:09 -!- aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:11:36 alinpopa [n=alinpopa@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:11:53 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 08:14:15 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:14:37 -!- awaykos is now known as anekos 08:14:54 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-220-199.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:15:23 -!- rlb3 [n=user@208.74.120.18] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:16:30 mvilleneuve [n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:34 good morning 08:18:53 http://www.radiofrance.fr/franceinter/chro/lhumeurde/index.php?id=75446 08:18:54 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:18:55 hehe 08:19:00 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:09 sory for the link ... bad channel 08:19:15 eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:19:30 trivial-gray-streams is the weakest link. 08:23:25 dalton [n=lhugbj@189-19-113-247.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 08:23:48 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-46-146.sqpk.az.commspeed.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:24:11 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:25:41 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:25:48 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 08:27:03 gio123 [n=gio123@gprs1.gprs.ge] has joined #lisp 08:27:21 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:28:58 -!- gio123 [n=gio123@gprs1.gprs.ge] has left #lisp 08:29:38 jewel_ [n=jewel@41.247.199.21] has joined #lisp 08:30:39 ecraven pasted "error message in compile-mode" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75252 08:30:53 foo, wrong channel, sorry for the paste 08:32:43 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:33:42 <_8david> ayrnieu: can you elaborate? 08:36:17 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-204-206.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:37:22 alexlmj [n=chatzill@2001:da8:100a:8c:219:dbff:fe6a:7f26] has joined #lisp 08:37:46 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 08:38:47 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 08:38:58 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 08:39:14 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 08:39:15 david - in the last two days I've looked at a pointlessly-darc'd repo on c-l.net, said "hey, I'll use cl-darcs", and (first with ABCL and then just now with SBCL) independently given up on this after hacking about with trivial-gray-streams. Both of these systems have gray-streams libraries, and trivial-gray-streams is tiny, so part of the problem is that I'm an idiot. 08:40:32 but trivial-gray-streams is out-of-the-box broken on SBCL. It requires :gray-streams, for instance. 08:40:44 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:40:51 -!- Ausente [n=lhugbj@187.10.16.117] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:19 <_8david> that require is #+cmu in the version of trivial-gray-streams that I have 08:41:53 <_8david> Admittedly trivial-gray-streams would be much better if it had a test suite. I'm also not sure sure whether anyone is still maintaining it... 08:43:09 -!- alinpopa [n=alinpopa@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:43:23 <_8david> Various Ediware uses it though, so I'm sure Edi or others would have sent patches if it was completely broken. 08:47:06 Ausente [n=lhugbj@189-19-114-181.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 08:47:47 -!- dalton [n=lhugbj@189-19-113-247.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:48:22 oh, the :gray-streams thing was my fault: asdf saw the trivial-gray-streams that I'd edited for ABCL. 08:48:25 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:49:08 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 08:49:40 dalton [n=lhugbj@189-19-114-190.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 08:51:09 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:51:19 kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has joined #lisp 08:52:28 hello lispers 08:54:00 OK, sorry. Back to hating people who use darcs. 09:02:28 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 09:06:28 -!- Ausente [n=lhugbj@189-19-114-181.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:07:42 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 09:09:20 Ausente [n=lhugbj@189-19-114-82.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 09:19:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 09:19:39 mega1 [n=mega@pool-0520d.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:22:19 hullo 09:24:53 -!- alexlmj [n=chatzill@2001:da8:100a:8c:219:dbff:fe6a:7f26] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Iceweasel 3.0.6/2009020409]"] 09:25:14 -!- dalton [n=lhugbj@189-19-114-190.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:26 dalton [n=lhugbj@189-19-114-178.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 09:32:35 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:34:33 schme, hillo 09:36:41 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA522.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:39:58 -!- Ausente [n=lhugbj@189-19-114-82.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:40:02 Ausente [n=lhugbj@189-19-115-250.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 09:44:52 -!- dalton [n=lhugbj@189-19-114-178.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:45:01 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:45:20 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:47:17 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-220-199.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:20 binarin [n=user@62.105.145.214] has joined #lisp 09:50:06 dalton [n=lhugbj@189-19-116-3.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 09:57:32 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-220-199.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:58:01 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-189-76.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:45 -!- Ausente [n=lhugbj@189-19-115-250.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:06:59 Ausente [n=lhugbj@189-19-117-224.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 10:07:07 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:07:40 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-220-199.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:10:19 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:17:25 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit ["moving to new emacs"] 10:18:05 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 10:18:37 -!- dalton [n=lhugbj@189-19-116-3.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:40 eevar_ [n=snuffpup@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:21:19 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 10:22:49 eevar__ [n=snuffpup@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:23:19 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 10:23:54 -!- Ausente [n=lhugbj@189-19-117-224.dsl.telesp.net.br] has left #lisp 10:25:29 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:26:51 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 10:27:23 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 10:27:52 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-189-76.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:27:56 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:29:23 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-189-76.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:06 psyllo [n=user@67-42-125-229.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:52 -!- cads is now known as cadZZzZ 10:36:22 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:39:42 -!- eevar_ [n=snuffpup@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:41:04 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-44-151.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:42:20 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:43:33 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@87-196-33-23.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 10:44:02 Does sbcl's compiler reorder reads, writes currently? 10:45:00 I have not found such as case, but maybe someone knows. 10:47:19 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:15 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:43 What library would sou recommend for writing a task bar like gnome-panel. I want to have smooth fonts so I won't be able to use the renderer available from clx. 10:50:45 -!- cadZZzZ [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:53:04 eevar [n=snuffpup@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:59 sepisultrum: you could try one of the gtk bindings, but i don't know how complete they are. 10:58:52 <_8david> mcclim-truetype demonstrates how you can render antialiased fonts in portable Lisp using zpb-ttf and cl-vectors. 10:58:54 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 10:59:15 <_8david> It doesn't do hinting though, so it's more smudgy than smooth. 10:59:57 H4ns: I wanted to avoid gtk or any other toolkits 11:00:06 sepisultrum: i see. 11:00:54 I wonder if I could use vecto structures and transform them to clx pixmaps 11:01:34 <_8david> sure, just AA:CELLS-SWEEP it into a pixmap 11:03:47 _8david: ahh, I see, that's cl-vectors. So vector uses the same structure I gues 11:03:48 s 11:04:14 ginkgo [n=user@chello084113198244.17.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:04:17 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-18.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:05:27 nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 11:05:34 -!- crod [n=cmell@EM114-48-188-236.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:06:10 zzf256 [n=user@77.117.6.54.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:23 _8david: looks very promising 11:10:08 -!- eevar__ [n=snuffpup@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:14:01 _8david: but what format does the struct returned cells-sweep have? 11:14:28 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:26 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 11:21:02 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:21:11 knobo [n=user@148.122.202.247] has joined #lisp 11:22:31 Is it possible to make a regexp that matches s-expressions? let 's say I want to grep after function foo, and I want to include all arguments even if they are on several lines. 11:23:05 not in the general case 11:33:22 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:34:15 mega1: I do not know, but I suspect that if it does it would only do so on those architectures with an instruction scheduler 11:38:56 Xof: that's not strictly done the really the compiler, is it? It's more that the compiler doesn't go out of its way to prevent the CPU from reordering stuff. 11:39:19 s/the really/by/ 11:40:12 the compiler does rearrange instructions which don't appear to depend on each other, if the assembly instruction scheduler is on 11:42:31 on ppc for instance? 11:43:31 where should I look in the code? 11:45:57 c|mell [n=cmell@EM114-48-88-59.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:45:58 -!- aundro__ [n=aundro@61.135-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:46:00 src/compiler/assem.lisp I think 11:46:23 schedule-pending-instructions 11:47:05 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:49:01 bhz- [n=redi@82.103.101.6] has joined #lisp 11:49:03 most beautiful 170 lines 11:51:17 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 11:51:53 I blame CMUCLTHULU 11:59:39 it will be fun to verify that reordering only happens between provably local things 12:01:12 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:01:14 -!- zzf256 [n=user@77.117.6.54.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has left #lisp 12:01:16 -!- Lou__ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:02:00 Lou__ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 12:02:43 aundro__ [n=aundro@65.42-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 12:03:40 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:04:25 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:35 G'morning all. 12:05:48 -!- semka [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:05:56 me-so-stupid_ [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 12:06:04 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 12:08:15 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@87-196-33-23.net.novis.pt] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 12:08:58 -!- psyllo [n=user@67-42-125-229.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:10:01 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:10:23 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:10:34 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:26 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F61B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:19 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:59 Kenjin [n=Kenjin@87.196.129.136] has joined #lisp 12:15:30 Phooodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:34 -!- loxs[away] [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:21:14 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:23:53 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 12:25:08 Hunh. That was easy. There seems to be an unnecessary slot in the catch-block structure... that is trivial to get rid of. 12:25:13 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:21 *nyef* is running tests now to see if anything important broke. 12:25:30 eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:09 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 12:29:48 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:50 all the kludge-nondeterministic-... constants? 12:31:26 Haven't updated them yet, just the x86-64 one. And this is all in a branch on my local. 12:32:23 But at this point, unless there's something in PCL that hacks catch-blocks, I'm reasonably confident that the size slot is completely unused. 12:32:47 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 12:33:06 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 12:33:18 elurin [n=user@85.99.88.66] has joined #lisp 12:40:26 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit ["bbye"] 12:47:46 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:51:23 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:27 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:53:13 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 12:53:35 -!- me-so-stupid_ [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:54:20 Good evening 12:56:18 robyonrails [n=roby@host207-200-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:56:25 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 12:56:48 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 12:58:43 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:59:30 hello 12:59:59 ... Of 12 open high-priority bugs in the tracker, one (alien return values) has a release fix (1.0.24.48), one (backtracing and bogus objects) has no test-case, one (windows console) is misdiagnosed and needs some serve-event interface updating to fix, and the other nine are either completely beyond me or not applicable to the hardware/software I have. 13:00:03 fe[nl]ix: Hello. 13:00:18 hello nyef 13:01:43 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 13:06:35 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:35 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:06:40 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:23 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-146-25.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:08:57 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:19:05 athos [n=philipp@p54B8647C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:41 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:45 morning! 13:23:39 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:24:43 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 13:26:23 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 13:26:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:49 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:56 rhickey [n=rhickey@ool-43574e75.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:58 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:36:19 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:37:24 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [] 13:37:43 -!- rhickey [n=rhickey@ool-43574e75.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 13:39:11 -!- Lou__ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:43:23 ice_four [n=ice_four@host217-43-14-3.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:08 -!- ice_four [n=ice_four@host217-43-14-3.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:44:24 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.226.23] has joined #lisp 13:44:52 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:12 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:15 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 13:45:33 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:54:55 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1C849.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:20 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:55:23 segv [n=mb@p4FC1EEB9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:36 -!- knobo [n=user@148.122.202.247] has left #lisp 14:01:15 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:56 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:02:26 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:26 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:14:22 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 14:17:45 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:14 willb [n=wibenton@66.187.234.199] has joined #lisp 14:24:39 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 14:26:01 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 14:27:51 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:30 how do i generate a line-feed or a jump to a new line (if i am not already on position 0) using princ? do i have to use format or is there a direct way (platform/implementation independent)? 14:28:56 Are you looking for TERPRI or something similar? 14:29:03 clhs fresh-line 14:29:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_terpri.htm 14:29:06 trebor_dki: (terpri ) 14:29:22 Ah, FRESH-LINE. 14:29:28 oh, thanks, i read it. 14:29:43 -!- FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:31:04 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:11 omg, fresh-line it could not be easier me thinks. 14:35:18 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-0520d.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:35:23 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:35:42 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:39:58 trebor_dki: just for printing right? if this for a network protocol you might want to emit your own #x0a and #x0d's 14:41:26 fusss: right, just for printing - thanks for the additional information. maybe useful later on. 14:42:00 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:21 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:42:31 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:29 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:35 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:04 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:46:09 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:04 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 14:53:44 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:46 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:53:46 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 14:55:23 -!- the-ruediger is now known as ruediger 14:56:10 Why would I ever use in-vector versus in-sequence when using iterate? Is the former faster? 14:56:10 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:57:16 it might be 14:57:29 my guess would be, first uses aref, second elt 14:57:42 and elt is usually dead slow 14:57:42 difference depends on implementation 14:57:47 aref can often be inlined 14:57:56 <_death> why would the second use elt? 14:58:21 because it might have to work in lists i think 14:58:30 oh right 14:58:35 <_death> I would think that in-sequence first dispatches on the type, list vs. vector, and then references appropriately 14:58:49 i forgot lists are sequences as well :-( thanks 14:59:08 _death: that's what elt should do 14:59:11 <_death> if it were to use elt for lists, it would be pretty horrible 14:59:25 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has left #lisp 14:59:38 <_death> stassats: no, I mean that it does so once for the whole sequence, not for every access 14:59:59 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:59 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:00:09 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:51 _death: makes sense 15:00:58 <_death> I guess that in-vector is to avoid that one type dispatch 15:01:08 <_death> the same reason loop has in and across 15:01:28 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:46 mega1 [n=mega@3e44a16f.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:01:49 <_8david> MACROEXPAND SAYS that IN-SEQUENCE really uses ELT every time. Horrible indeed. 15:01:56 though, i look at the code: (defclause-sequence in-sequence index-of-sequence ... :access-fn 'elt 15:01:57 <_death> :/ 15:02:01 <_8david> I think one of us is supposed to write a patch now. 15:02:46 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-10.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 15:03:29 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:05:29 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:05:53 in-sequence always access data sequentially? 15:05:55 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:06:44 <_death> yes 15:13:09 <_death> (closest thing to a problem is handling from/downfrom/by, etc.. still, that could be done more efficiently than elt) 15:14:12 _8david: wouldn't elt be optimized away anyway if the type is sufficiently known? 15:15:01 <_death> dlowe: the problem is that for every element the list would have to be re-iterated 15:15:19 in order to collect different things at start in-the-middle and at the end of a loop - do i have to use a counter variable & when - or is it possible to use 'initially and 'finally together with collect? 15:15:20 dlowe: in SSC 15:16:57 <_death> trebor_dki: your question makes little sense, what are you actually trying to do? 15:17:31 <_8david> trebor_dki: no, unfortunately not 15:18:19 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@network-65-167-67-54.doubleclick.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:25 when some-condition collect ? 15:18:32 _death: something like (loop for i in (list 'a 'b 'c) initially collect 'start .... collect i ... finally collect 'done) to get (start a b c done) 15:18:43 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.140.34] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:19:24 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@network-65-167-67-54.doubleclick.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:19:27 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:17 (let (list) (loop initially (push 'begin list) for i to 10 when (evenp i) do (push i list) finally (push 'end list)) (reverse list)) 15:20:20 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@network-65-167-67-54.doubleclick.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:46 manic12: that is what i do now. i use a counter and check where i am. 15:21:11 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 15:21:12 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:19 <_death> trebor_dki: (list* 'start (loop for sublist on list for i = (car sublist) collect ... when (null (rest sublist)) collect 'end)) 15:22:55 <_death> if you want to iterate the list just once 15:23:01 <_death> otherwise, nconc is your friend 15:23:10 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 15:23:37 <_death> (yeah yeah should've used first rather than car) 15:24:27 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:02 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:25:52 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:25:56 stassats & _death: the problem is, that 'start and 'done were just examples - they stand for results of calculations within the loop. if i put them around the loop-collects from outside the loop - i have to copy & paste some calculations. 15:26:02 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.140.34] has joined #lisp 15:26:13 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-198.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:26:15 but maybe i better rethink ;) 15:26:21 tnanks. 15:27:50 <_death> sometimes it's easier just to avoid loop and use plain let, do, etc. 15:28:07 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:28:33 Greetings! 15:29:12 _death: do? 15:29:19 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:32 <_death> stassats: yes 15:29:54 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:30:03 <_death> I don't have any problem with `do', unlike many other Lispers. 15:30:26 i don't have any problem with loop 15:30:58 I wish series had better support 15:31:17 <_death> heh, I generally use loop or iterate (in some projects).. I can't say that I don't have any problem with loop, though ;).. iterate solves some.. 15:31:29 i'd understand avoiding loop in favour of iterate, or something 15:32:30 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@0x573fd50a.arcnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:32:40 -!- antoinevg [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:33:05 I use DO. I've played with LOOP, but stick with DO because there are fewer rules to remember. 15:33:18 AllNight^ [n=EnglishG@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:33:22 hello :) 15:33:30 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:33:36 Greetings, AllNight^ 15:33:46 hi tmh :) 15:34:29 <_death> one purpose of loop was to handle hairy cases, but ironically in some hairy cases loop adds its own hair 15:34:37 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-10.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 15:34:41 a quick question btw... does anyone know if there's a predicate for letting you determine if a symbol defines a macro? there' functionp - but no macrop as far as I can tell 15:34:59 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:35:01 _death: That is why I avoid it, I don't have the motivation to become a LOOP expert. 15:35:13 clhs macro-function 15:35:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_macro_.htm 15:35:18 AllNight^ try macr-function 15:35:24 <_death> tmh: I don't think you need to be a loop expert to get many of the benefits of loop 15:35:30 antoinevg [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has joined #lisp 15:35:36 ty tmh :) 15:37:07 chupish [n=sedwards@waffle.aip.org] has joined #lisp 15:37:19 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:17 AllNight^: I think you want to thank stassats. 15:40:10 oh - thanks stassats :) 15:40:16 and specbot 15:40:32 *AllNight^* doesnt know if specbot is a bot... but says thanks anyway 15:40:35 :) 15:41:18 you are welcome 15:41:35 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:43:37 is there a corresponding operation for checking if something is a special form? 15:43:59 *AllNight^* trying to write something that will only attempt to evalutate (funcall x y) if x is a 'proper' function 15:44:13 you could have an exhaustive list of them 15:44:19 <_death> special form or special operator? 15:44:37 I've thought of that manic12 - as it's not a long list... but that feels a little kludgy 15:44:48 if there's a built-in predicate telling you that would be nicer 15:44:55 <_death> there's special-operator-p 15:45:21 and _death - what's the difference? I thought a special form is something like quote or let 15:45:31 ty _death :) 15:45:43 <_death> AllNight: if you want to test for functions, why don't you do just that? 15:46:08 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:20 _death - becuase functionp returns true for macros & special forms (at least it does in sbcl) 15:46:22 <_death> AllNight^: do you know about the CLHS's glossary? 15:46:33 but then if you try to use them with funcall you get an error at run-time 15:46:37 <_death> AllNight^: are you quite sure about that? 15:47:11 actually tried it in the repl _death 15:47:17 <_death> macros aren't first-class objects, and neither are special operators 15:47:38 -!- willb [n=wibenton@66.187.234.199] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:40 <_death> how would you pass a macro or a special operator to `functionp'? 15:48:01 (functionp (symbol-function 'quote)) 15:48:09 yields T 15:48:27 (functionp #'defun) => T 15:48:29 <_death> (uhm, actually special operators are symbols, so I guess you could pass them to functionp ;) 15:48:53 <_death> but is (function defun) or (symbol-function 'quote) legal? 15:49:13 <_death> I guess the latter is 15:49:43 well (funcall (symbol-function 'quote) 3) certainly isnt - it yields an error: "Cannot FUNCALL the SYMBOL-FUNCTION of special operator QUOTE." 15:50:33 I found this surprising - at first I expected that (funcall (symbol-function x) y) would work for all x,y - so long as y was of the correct form 15:50:45 but of course - it doesnt, becuase macro's arent first-class 15:51:00 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:51:01 so then I wanted to at least put a check in - so it wont even try if that wouldnt work 15:51:04 hello sohail 15:51:13 (functionp #'quote) -> T; (functionp #'defun) -> T; (functionp #'shiznat) -> "The function SHIZNAT is undefined" 15:51:40 I am surprised but not baffled 15:51:48 <_death> ozy: #'quote is erroneous 15:52:02 <_death> clhs function 15:52:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm 15:52:02 _death: Are you sure? 15:52:25 Ah, guess so. 15:52:27 <_death> see fourth paragraph in description of function special operator 15:52:34 (and (fboundp f) (not (macro-function f)) (not (special-operator-p f))) 15:52:48 It's symbol-function that's defined to do wierd things for special operators. 15:52:59 <_death> yeah 15:53:03 ty stassats 15:53:06 :) 15:53:35 well, I think the part where FUNCTION may return a value, but the value is not allowed to have a useful purpose, is pretty weird 15:54:27 LegendaryPenguin [i=Legendar@rrdhcp16-221.redrover.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 15:54:38 yes, that is weird 15:54:50 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:55:08 I was surprised because I wasn't aware it didn't have to signal the error until you try to call it 15:55:18 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:55:27 Umm... It doesn't even have to signal an error then. 15:55:27 it doesn't have to signal an error when you call it either 15:55:35 as long as it's not useful 15:55:51 No, no... It can be useful, it just can't be defined as being useful. 15:56:16 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host207-200-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 15:56:31 <_death> i.e. you can't say "this is useful"? ;) 15:57:04 Something like that. 15:57:46 Actually, the behavior can be defined as useful, so long as the "not signalling an error" part isn't defined as useful. 15:58:02 how... useless 15:58:11 This is the only place in the spec that they do anything like this, isn't it? 15:58:12 it says 'for performance reasons', that can be useful 15:58:42 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:59:15 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B8647C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:59:29 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 16:00:38 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 16:00:44 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:00:54 so sbcl does instruction scheduling when the cpu is not clever enough to do it itself? 16:02:51 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:03:02 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 16:04:41 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-34-95.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:04:54 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 16:05:40 [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.146] has joined #lisp 16:06:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:09 -!- peddie [n=peddie@18.224.1.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:12 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D496.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:22 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633876.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:08:56 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633876.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 16:08:59 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633876.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:09:02 weirdo [n=sthalik@c153-202.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:09:57 willb1 [n=wibenton@66.187.234.199] has joined #lisp 16:13:38 -!- carchidi [n=carchidi@ourteam1.com] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 16:14:27 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:15:44 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:16:40 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 16:17:03 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:19:22 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-46-146.sqpk.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:11 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:04 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 16:25:34 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:25:36 -!- LegendaryPenguin [i=Legendar@rrdhcp16-221.redrover.cornell.edu] has quit [] 16:25:48 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:11 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 16:27:10 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:27:25 ferada [n=user@e179236186.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:30 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:29:58 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 16:30:09 Here's a stylistic question that seems interesting --- is there some elegant way to hide constant definitions? defconstant seems to have global scope (ANSI says it's meaningful for it to appear not at top-level, but I'm not sure what that would do). I suppose there's top-level LET.... 16:30:37 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:31:22 rpg: whaddya mean by "hide"? 16:32:22 kreuter: We have a small set of functions that use a set of constants. Those constants are actively misleading out of this context. My colleague wants to avoid my solution, which is to force the set of functions into a separate pkg. 16:32:41 (constants are symbolic names for important array indices). 16:32:46 and which properties of constants do you need? 16:32:50 <_death> you could use the ++ naming convention 16:32:55 must rebinding as lexicals be forbidden? 16:33:12 if not, a toplevel symbol-macrolet would be good 16:33:20 rpg: That sounds like a place where a let around the functions would work. Although, it may be annoying to have all of the functions in a let. 16:33:20 _death: ++ doesn't do the job. The important thing is that these constants be invisible to people using other constants. 16:33:29 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has joined #lisp 16:33:29 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has joined #lisp 16:33:52 toplevel lets suck, since the inside of the let will no longer be in toplevel context 16:33:55 tmh: that's my feeling, too. I prefer the new package solution, myself, but was wondering if there was a pleasing alternative. 16:34:16 alternatively, you could also introduce a layer of accessor macros for your arrays that special names are processed as symbols at compile-time. 16:34:42 kreuter: That's a nice idea, but seems like significantly more work than a new package... 16:35:05 In a different context, it would be very nice. 16:35:23 okay. 16:35:24 Bribek [n=Bribek@0x573fd50a.arcnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:35:46 I mean, it's vaguely unLispy to talk about "hiding" things... 16:35:47 jsnell: I don't appreciate the issues related to having DEFUNs not at the toplevel. Can you recommend some reading? 16:36:35 ayrnieu` [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:11 -!- AllNight^ is now known as AllNight^afk 16:37:21 clhs 3.2.3.1.1 16:37:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bcaa.htm 16:37:26 a defun not a the toplevel doesn't have a compile-time effect 16:37:34 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:37:35 -!- ayrnieu` is now known as ayrnieu 16:37:35 -!- bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has quit [Success] 16:37:39 um can some help me and tell wether this http://pastebin.com/d2a97971a is a bug in cl-yacc or in the package i'm trying to compile? 16:37:46 <_death> maybe you could use a macro that introduces these constants in the body? (sounds a bit ugly) 16:37:48 for example the compiler won't know that the function has been defined until the fasl is loaded 16:38:04 Ah, okay, thanks. 16:38:09 and might give bogus warnings about calls to undefined functions 16:38:23 tmh: I think 3.2.3.1.1 is what you should read. 16:38:39 ferada: what is the error message? 16:39:10 H4ns: the error message is 90% memory full and the computer nearly halts because of that :( 16:39:11 ferada: are you on a memory-restrained system? you'll want to look at http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/#*use-bmh-matchers* in that case 16:39:22 1gb ... 16:40:01 H4ns: okay, i'll try that 16:40:13 ferada: see above. you can also look at http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/#*regex-char-code-limit* and set that to, say, 256 if you're only handling latin-1 encoded strings. 16:40:35 See, I don't have a strong conceptual understanding of the interaction compile-load-runtime sequence. I'm always having to review the Hyperspec to make sure I'm getting it correct. Hopefully, someday I'll understand it well enough that I won't have to think twice about it. Not there yet. 16:41:16 tmh: read chapter 3 a few dozen times, then program for a couple years, and then reread chapter 3 again :) 16:45:30 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:40 kreuter: Check. I've found another good way to learn the subtleties is to make subtle errors. For example, I had an inadvertent quote before a comment at the toplevel that obviously generated weird errors concerning the following DEFUN. It really creates a better appreciation for the evaluation sequence. 16:47:51 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:50 H4ns: well, it doesn't make things better, but thanks anyway 16:50:11 ferada: same backtrace location? 16:51:13 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:44 Can someone explain to me the purpose of SHADOW and SHADOWING-IMPORT? I understand what they do, but not when and why you would use them. 16:51:56 H4ns: seems so 16:52:23 jcowan: you use them when you want to extend system functions 16:52:25 ferada: are you sure that you set *regex-char-code-limit* and *use-bmh-matches* at the right time? 16:52:44 e.g. you want to do your own version of READ that's specialized on some stream-like interface 16:52:48 Hun: can you give me a particular example? 16:52:57 you can't DEFMETHOD a new one, because READ is a function 16:53:16 H4ns: directly in front of create-scanner, so it should be there, no? 16:53:19 so you can shadow read, do your own one as a method and call CL:READ in the generic case 16:53:43 ferada: for starters, i'd load ppcre, then set the two variables, then load the real system. 16:54:12 ferada: create-scanner is invoked, at compile time, through a compiler macro and i suspect that you're bitten by that 16:54:18 jcowan: Package P1 exports symbol P1::S, package P2 exports a symbol P2::S, in your package P3 you want to use both P1 and P2 16:54:42 jcowan: When you write S with *package* being bound to P3, what should it resolve to? 16:54:52 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-105-2-128.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:55:09 tcr: Clearly a problem. But if you shadow S, how does that resolve anything? 16:55:33 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:55:43 jcowan: that subject is treated pretty thoroughly in PCL 16:56:09 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 16:56:09 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e44a16f.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:57:06 jcowan: You can use (:shadowing-import-from #:P1 #:S) so S will resolve to P1::S 16:58:04 Okay, that explains SHADOWING-IMPORT to me, but I'm still confused about SHADOW. 16:59:28 -!- bhz- [n=redi@82.103.101.6] has quit [] 16:59:59 shadow unimports given symbol and interns it in given package 17:00:11 Yes, I know that. But when and why do you want to do that? 17:00:14 -!- bob_f [n=bob@mail.phgroup.com] has quit ["argh quit argh"] 17:00:15 so that symbol's home package is the package on which SHADOW operates 17:00:24 jcowan, when you want to shadow IF, LAMBDA or the like 17:00:46 jcowan: shadowing-import is just shadow, then import 17:00:48 so that you can (:use #:cl) (:shadow #:if) for instance 17:02:05 H4ns: it looks a bit different now, http://pastebin.com/d43ea4ce3 the variables were set before compilation, and memory grows a little bit slower 17:02:08 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-219-118.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:15 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-66-143-167-172.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:02:27 jcowan: SHADOW has the effect that the symbol isn't present in any other package at the time the SHADOW is executed. 17:02:47 ferada: ok, so that means that you can't compile the system on that machine, basically 17:02:48 ah, cl-pprce strikes again? 17:02:53 er, strike that. 17:03:05 H4ns: k, thanks again 17:03:05 if the symbol was already there and exported, it might be in some other package. 17:03:48 you did set the approriate variables to make it a little less voracious? 17:04:03 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-82-174.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:26 wait, no, "present" is the right term. the symbol might be accessible in other packages, but a symbol that's shadowed in package P will have a home package of P. 17:05:42 mega1 [n=mega@3e44a16f.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 17:06:19 jcowan: SHADOW is rarely used explicitly. It's used implicitly by the (:shadow ...) clause in DEFPACKAGE. And notice that (:shadow ...) clauses are executed first by DEFPACKAGE, shortly after the package object itself was created. So (:shadow :FOO :BAR) does the following: Intern "FOO", "BAR", then add the symbols FOO, BAR to the shadowing list. 17:07:34 jcowan: The effect is that if later a (:use :P) clause is executed, FOO, and BAR are already on the shadowing list, meaning that a P:FOO is not inherited. 17:08:27 Okay. So SHADOW means "don't inherit this", whereas SHADOWING-IMPORT means "import this regardless of conflicts". 17:08:38 yes. 17:09:05 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:09:21 jcowan: Notice that "inherited" does not mean "included in the package itself" in this context. 17:09:34 Right 17:09:38 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:53 shadowed symbols is just a list that will prevent find-symbol from looking for the symbol in used packages 17:10:15 Which means that SHADOW does in fact create the symbol in the package itself. 17:10:30 jcowan: No, only if it is not already there 17:10:39 Okay. 17:10:42 in the case of DEFPACKAGE's (:shadow ...) clause, yes 17:10:51 "ensures" is the CLHS terminology 17:10:59 er, or "assures" 17:11:35 So the result of shadowing-import is that a foreign symbol is added to the package, whereas shadow adds a native symbol to the package. 17:12:01 yes although that's not the terminology of the standard 17:12:13 clhs 11.1.1 17:12:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_aa.htm 17:12:32 jcowan: the precise terminology is there. 17:12:35 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:37 Okay, thanks. 17:13:07 Now is it true that a symbol is a public symbol in a package iff it is exported by the package? 17:13:36 workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:13:36 there is no public symbol in Common Lisp, there are external symbols 17:13:36 jcowan: that's the idea, but "public" isn't really defined in CL. 17:13:45 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA522.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:13:50 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:13:57 "\"External symbols\" are part of the package's public interface to other packages." 17:14:18 External, I meant to say. 17:14:28 jcowan: You've got Slime, right? 17:14:42 tcr: No. 17:15:08 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:15:09 Your loss. I summarized the terminology in the docstring of swank::symbol-status 17:15:14 -!- ferada [n=user@e179236186.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["wahhhh"] 17:15:27 jcowan: the intent is supposed to be that authors of programs ought to export from their programs' packages all the symbols that comprise the interface to the program. 17:15:42 in practice, people make mistakes about what to export. 17:16:06 at first 17:16:14 but they usually fix them 17:16:39 depends on how you look at it. :) 17:16:39 It's easier to fix if you default to erring on the side of not exporting symbols. 17:17:14 maacl [n=mac@0x55814854.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has joined #lisp 17:17:27 things that people often forget to export include names of condition classes and restarts, for example. 17:18:33 s/export/document/ 17:18:47 okay 17:18:59 *stassats* looks into packages.lisp, didn't forget 17:19:17 there's a misspelled condition class in elephant :) 17:19:33 (I suppose it's there forever now) 17:19:47 fork it! 17:20:08 eh? 17:20:27 jcowan: I haven't had the time to look at ISLISP module system but it's probably very different 17:20:30 (setf (find-class correct-spelling) (find-class incorrct-splling)) ought to do the trick. 17:21:01 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-34-95.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:05 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-219-118.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:21:39 or maybe making the correctly-spelled name be the name for a trivial subclass of the class named incorectly-spelled name. 17:22:20 jcowan: it's worth noting that the package system isn't a module system. 17:23:34 chaitanya [n=chaitany@59.178.200.53] has joined #lisp 17:24:25 -!- addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 17:25:17 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:09 josemanuel [n=josemanu@26.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:28:29 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@EM114-48-88-59.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:28:32 tcr: ISLisp has neither a module nor a package system. 17:28:59 Oh I thought they used the one from Eulisp 17:29:25 Nope. All that's said is that symbols containing : other than at the beginning are implementation-dependent. 17:29:37 It's also I-D whether keywords are symbols or not. 17:30:42 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 17:30:53 c|mell [n=cmell@EM114-48-146-219.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:30:59 My intention is to allow DEFPACKAGE and IN-PACKAGE at the top level only, probably with some restrictions. 17:31:27 jcowan: have you looked at how clojure does packages and namespacing? 17:31:38 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:31:38 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-82-174.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:31:59 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-82-174.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:15 I don't know if it's feasible for a conforming ISLISP, but I recall finding Hickey's analysis not uninteresting. 17:33:04 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:23 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-119-122.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 17:34:13 bob_f [n=bob@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:36 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-123-76.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:07 tritchey [n=tritchey@173.15.15.30] has joined #lisp 17:37:39 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:08 -!- p_l_ is now known as p_l 17:39:17 demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig108.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 17:39:58 flurry of activity on the hunchentoot svn repository recently: http://bknr.net/trac/log/trunk/thirdparty/hunchentoot 17:40:15 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:40:39 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-123-76.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:40:59 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-123-76.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:13 addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 17:43:08 nman [n=sebastia@chello084112017065.16.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:43:31 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:43:33 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 17:43:48 -!- nman is now known as sebastianb 17:44:03 -!- sebastianb [n=sebastia@chello084112017065.16.11.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 17:45:21 chaitanya: yes, and... 17:45:30 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:45:33 What's new? 17:46:20 kreuter: thanks, I'll look at it. 17:47:30 Okay, last question (for now): when would you use the :INTERN clause in DEFPACKAGE? It announces that your package has certain internal symbols (creating them if necessary), but why would you do that? 17:47:53 heh, "edi: More lunacy" 17:48:22 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@26.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 17:48:24 "The :intern option is useful if an :import-from or a :shadowing-import-from option in a subsequent call to defpackage (for some other package) expects to find these symbols accessible but not necessarily external." 17:48:56 "Don't export *CATCH-ERRORS-P* anymore." - what?! argh. really must take a look at this brave new hunchentoot... 17:48:58 jcowan: basically, it lets you set up the package declaratively, rather than by side-effects of the reader. 17:49:10 or by procedurally invoking INTERN. 17:49:52 So, I'm thinking about unwinds still, and I had this wave of deja vu. Has anyone other than foom done work on a smarter unwind implementation in SBCL? 17:50:16 trebor_dki pasted "what is the error in this loop?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75275 17:50:53 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D496.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:50:58 trebor_dki: finally (return ...) 17:51:01 <_death> the return 17:51:07 <_death> or just return (...) 17:51:13 luis: don't know much. but looks like things are moving again.. 17:51:22 <_death> erm, scratch that 17:51:42 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has quit [] 17:51:55 Looks like the actual ERROR message got clipped. 17:52:00 chaitanya: maybe things weren't moving much because it works? ;-) 17:52:17 oh, thanks, i do modify the defun, thanks. (that was very fast - and very obvious, so it seems) 17:52:19 luis: hmmm 17:52:27 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-69-148-18-17.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:43 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-82-174.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:53:22 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:53:38 trebor_dki: what if you use append instead of collect and don't do (apply #'append face-list-list) 17:53:39 ? 17:53:47 stassats: thanks 17:54:00 What are you quoting? 17:54:09 jcowan: "Notes:" 17:54:14 luis: i am still looking forward to the new improved hunchentoot though 17:54:18 on DEFPACKAGE entry 17:54:20 luis: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/tbnl-devel/2009-January/004553.html 17:54:33 stassats: you are right - that was my next to-do. i am modifying an old function to a new (shorter, better) one - thanks. 17:54:55 chaitanya: that sounds good 17:55:33 Okay. Thanks, all. 17:55:35 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 17:57:58 willb [n=wibenton@66.187.234.199] has joined #lisp 17:58:18 -!- willb [n=wibenton@66.187.234.199] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:58:28 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@173.15.15.30] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:00:13 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:32 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-123-76.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:07:16 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 18:08:20 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:09:21 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.226.23] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:11:53 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:15:22 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 18:17:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:18:42 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:21:32 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:22:40 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:23:33 maacl pasted ".emacs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75277 18:23:43 -!- willb1 is now known as willb 18:23:49 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:51 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:24:05 -!- willb [n=wibenton@66.187.234.199] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:24:09 willb [n=wibenton@66.187.234.199] has joined #lisp 18:24:53 newbie here..getting a "caught 1 fatal ERROR condition" from slime but cannot seem to find any hint as to what the error is...shouldn't there be an error message somewhere ? using sbcl, emacs(aquamacs), slime, paredit - 18:25:40 protoceratops [n=protocer@student164-83.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 18:27:17 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:18 there should be something that says ERROR: specific details 18:27:56 maacl pasted "reddit-clone" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75280 18:28:04 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 18:29:01 sykopomp: all the sbcl repl outputs is : ; compiling file "/Users/mac/Development/cl/reddit-lisp.lisp" (written 11 FEB 2009 07:21:46 PM): 18:29:01 ; 18:29:01 ; compilation unit aborted 18:29:01 ; caught 1 fatal ERROR condition 18:29:01 ; compilation aborted after 0:00:00 18:29:12 maacl: read further up. 18:30:17 sykopomp: but that is all there is .. 18:30:27 no, it's possible that an actual error doesn't get printed 18:30:31 I've seen something like that 18:30:35 oh okay 18:30:40 the actual error is that REQUIRE does not operate at compile time 18:30:46 ah 18:31:01 and the error is a reader error, because the hunchentoot and cl-who packages do not exist 18:31:09 so trying to compile reddit-lisp.lisp by hand should work? 18:31:14 no 18:31:25 Doing the require "by hand" before hand should work. 18:31:50 either do the requires before compiling the file, or put eval-when (everything) around them 18:31:51 Krystof: ah, so if i evaluate the requires and the compile it will work ? 18:32:04 -!- protoceratops [n=protocer@student164-83.hampshire.edu] has quit [] 18:32:06 maacl: Look at http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/slime-talk-2008.pdf for the slime-related .emacs tidbits 18:32:19 (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (require ...)) 18:32:29 or, possibly, use asdf 18:33:06 hippee-lee [n=hippee-l@sta-206-168-218-28.rockynet.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:56 crod [n=cmell@EM114-48-146-48.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:33:59 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:34:07 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@EM114-48-146-219.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:19 rsynnott: as in load op ? 18:34:35 <_death> as in writing a system definition 18:35:01 <_death> you could also save an image with the right systems loaded, so you don't have to load them every time 18:36:53 _death: ok 18:37:49 thanks for the input... 18:38:55 -!- hippee-lee [n=hippee-l@sta-206-168-218-28.rockynet.com] has quit ["done"] 18:40:59 Oh, for the... 18:41:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:41:36 https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/309132 (on x86 operand size prefix is not recognized) seems in direct conflict with 1.0.4.44. 18:42:10 hippee-lee [n=hippee-l@sta-206-168-218-28.rockynet.com] has joined #lisp 18:46:15 -!- Kenjin [n=Kenjin@87.196.129.136] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 18:46:26 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BA5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:57 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@network-65-167-67-54.doubleclick.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:21 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:50:59 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 18:51:14 psyllo [n=user@70.102.172.126] has joined #lisp 18:53:48 -!- kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:58 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@network-65-167-67-54.doubleclick.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:56:19 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-141-20.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:56:41 I'm working(slowly) through PCL, and it says i can specify a filename with "~/", but when i do it tries to access "/home/me/~/" is there an easy fix for this? (sbcl +slime if that matters) 18:57:30 slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BA5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:33 Yes. The easy fix is to acknowledge that the book is wrong in this instance... 18:57:55 OK, just wondered if maybe i'd set something up wrong 18:57:58 Thanks 18:58:07 -!- slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BA5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:58:32 Well, you might have, really... But I'm not sure that ever worked. 18:58:43 http://xach.livejournal.com/179622.html 18:58:43 Jarvellis: Specify where? 18:59:21 Jarvellis: you can tab-complete it at the repl 18:59:26 ... Is ~ a valid logical-host-name? 18:59:35 (save-db "~/my-cds.db") 18:59:41 hmm. sbcl directly uses /dev/tty when using *terminal-io* 18:59:46 Jarvellis: is this at the repl or in a function? 18:59:52 In a function 19:00:00 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:04 Jarvellis: I think there's some slime magic there when you're at the repl 19:00:05 i was using *terminal-io* just as a shortcut for stdin and stdout 19:00:21 Hun: Nope, not what was specified. Sorry. 19:00:27 If it doesn't work that way in a function, then that's fine 19:00:31 alexbobp [n=banmenot@66.112.249.147] has joined #lisp 19:00:38 is sbcl's working correct here? it cost me about an hour 19:01:04 bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 19:01:08 sorry, no refunds 19:01:08 i tried to use a sbcl-process in a pipeline. executing the pipeline from inside emacs worked, but not from the shell. in the shell, sbcl saw the xterm and wrote directly to it 19:01:34 Hun: *terminal-io* is supposed to be attached to a user-interactive terminal. On posixoid systems, this is typically the ctty of the process, accessible via /dev/tty. 19:01:34 i'm not sure if that was my fault or not... any comments? 19:01:42 ok 19:02:49 Hun - http://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf would've warned you away from this 19:03:18 i read most of that paper. obviously i've missed that bit :) 19:04:34 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [No route to host] 19:05:17 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-146-25.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:05:45 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:57 EXetoC [i=EXetoC@c-bf93e155.1422-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:07:54 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:02 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:15:50 sorry another loop question: (loop for (i ii) on (list 1 2 3 4) do (print 'i i 'ii ii)) results in 4 runs. is there a clever way to avoid the last run (i = 4, ii = nil) besides checking ii for nil? 19:16:33 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:21 Heh. I love this: in src/runtime/save.c, in save_to_filehandle(), there's an unbind_to_here() within a for_each_thread... But on threaded builds, that won't affect the actual values in the core spaces, and the threads themselves aren't stored in the resultant core. 19:18:07 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:18:21 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 19:18:22 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:21:15 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:51 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 19:29:16 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-54e63de5da6030ab] has joined #lisp 19:33:14 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 19:33:49 -!- tchandy_ [n=debian@201-41-202-14.bnut3703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:49 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 19:33:51 illuminati1113 [n=user@129.42.208.167] has joined #lisp 19:34:17 -!- AllNight^afk [n=EnglishG@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has quit [] 19:34:18 trebor - I don't see anything clever in the accumulation clauses, so just: (loop for (i ii) on (list 1 2 3 4) while ii ...) 19:35:49 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.146] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 19:36:02 plan9 [n=stian@revenant.sletner.com] has joined #lisp 19:41:30 Hrm... Fare seems to have slightly messed up the description of the last boston-lisp-meeting... 19:41:38 _Soulman_ [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:26 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 19:48:16 peddie [n=peddie@dhcp-18-111-10-73.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 19:49:08 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-202-130.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:44 josemanuel [n=josemanu@26.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:49:47 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:51:08 tsuru [n=user@66.199.17.194] has joined #lisp 19:51:22 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-44-151.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:20 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 19:57:14 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x55814854.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:52 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:59:24 pitui [n=pitui@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:15 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 20:00:54 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:03:26 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-69-148-18-17.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:05:44 what is this funny website called again that collects statistics about open source project? 20:05:45 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.140.34] has quit [Success] 20:05:53 ohloh? 20:06:00 -!- mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:02 lolol would be more apt 20:07:23 -!- bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:07:55 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@59.178.200.53] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:12:35 Ahhh! The domain registration for lispdoc has expired. 20:12:35 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:01 jestocost [n=cmell@EM114-48-13-160.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:13:17 tmh, do you need lispdoc.com when there's l1sp.org 20:13:39 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-202-130.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:59 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-202-130.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:16 Because I was unaware of l1sp.org, Thanks! 20:14:21 Beket [n=stathis@ppp183-63.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:15:10 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:15:20 -!- crod [n=cmell@EM114-48-146-48.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:16:24 Well, l1sp.org will work, lispdoc results are nicer and there is a firefox search engine for lispdoc. Regardless, thanks. 20:19:56 -!- plan9 [n=stian@revenant.sletner.com] has left #lisp 20:21:04 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:09 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:19 Okay, you talked me into it, I'll hack together an open search description for l1sp.org. 20:26:08 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 20:27:21 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 20:28:24 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@26.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 20:28:47 -!- mvilleneuve [n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:31:19 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-18.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:31:39 Cronos|away [n=a@5ad305a5.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 20:33:10 mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:59 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-46-146.sqpk.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:32 *tmh* wastes time on a logo 20:34:48 It's always the little things that take the most time and bug me the most. 20:35:28 What does a SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR mean in sbcl? 20:36:13 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has left #lisp 20:36:25 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 20:36:55 that means you're doing something bad :) 20:37:15 I'm only calling (xlib:change-property window :_NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE "ATOM" :_NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_DOCK 32) 20:37:53 sepisultrum: ok, so the error is likely in foreign code. 20:38:03 drewc: hmmmmmmmm 20:38:05 damn 20:38:11 i don't know much about xlib 20:38:18 has that call ever worked? 20:38:28 drewc: I thaugth clx was it's own implementation 20:38:40 drewc: ehm, it's the first time I tried 20:38:47 if you're using clx, it's not linking in the C xlib 20:39:11 jsnell: jeah, I'm using portable clx afaik 20:39:13 but communicating with x over a socket 20:39:22 Hmm, does anybody know where list archives from metacircles.com can be found? 20:39:44 But stumpwm uses it afaik 20:40:19 sepisultrum: you can always try recompiling with a higer debug and safety to see if that garners a more descriptive error. 20:40:21 sepisultrum: you don't have safety declarations set to 0? 20:40:24 higher 20:40:34 -!- antoinevg [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41:22 antoinevg [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has joined #lisp 20:41:41 -!- illuminati1113 [n=user@129.42.208.167] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:52 illuminati1113 [n=user@129.42.208.167] has joined #lisp 20:41:54 Ohh, I have not ideah how I would do that. I've installed clx using asdf-install 20:42:04 josemanuel [n=josemanu@111.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:42:52 (declaim (optimize (safety 1) (debug 2))) 20:43:27 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D496.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:52 so doing this in a repl and then how can I recompile clx? Just re-asdf-install it? 20:44:50 remove fasls, and do (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :clx) 20:44:53 sepisultrum: (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :clx :force t) 20:45:10 -!- ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 20:45:15 could it be that enabling threads in sbcl caused the error? 20:45:30 thanks 20:45:47 fe[nl]ix: wouldn't that also recompile sbcl contribs? 20:46:42 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-61-26.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 20:47:03 yeah, it gave me a permissions error because it tried to tamper with stuff in /usr/lib/sbcl/ 20:47:36 -!- psyllo [n=user@70.102.172.126] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:48:25 -!- peddie [n=peddie@dhcp-18-111-10-73.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:36 psyllo [n=user@70.102.172.126] has joined #lisp 20:50:16 I'll just try recompiling sbcl without threads 20:50:19 who knows 20:50:35 there have been problems with stumpwm an sbcl with threads 20:50:35 on what platform? 20:50:41 GNU/Linux 20:50:44 32bit 20:50:49 IA32 20:51:28 threads and clx work quite well on that platform 20:51:32 user___ [n=user@p54927837.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:05 and stumpwm? 20:52:07 *drewc* is a stumpwm user 20:52:20 does anyone know if adding methods to ALLOCATE-INSTANCE works portably(ish)? 20:52:21 florist [i=shreyas@unaffiliated/florist] has joined #lisp 20:52:47 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:52:55 kreuter: what are you trying to do (ish)? :) 20:53:09 hashing instances. 20:53:16 "The consequences of adding methods to allocate-instance is unspecified." 20:53:30 stassats: did I say conformingly? :) 20:53:34 stassats: common lisp window manager 20:53:34 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:47 sepisultrum: yes, i know 20:53:47 dl [n=user@dhcp75.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 20:54:06 kreuter: why not initialize-instance? 20:54:06 kreuter: no 20:55:05
hello! I'm having a problem with SBCL 1.0.25 apparently getting its streams "crossed" 20:55:44 drewc: because if MAKE-INSTANCE is implemented as if in accordance with 7.1.7, the initialization functions can't affect MAKE-INSTANCE's return value. 20:56:29 Okay, opensearch engines are described in XML, which I rarely use. How do I comment? 20:56:36 so you want make-instance to return something other than the instance? 20:56:37
I'm helping Ingvar Mattsson with NOCTool and sometimes our monitors (who get their data by spawning an SSH process and read from the resulting PTY) get data from the wrong source(!!!) 20:56:47 Ah, nv 20:56:55 nevermind 20:56:56 tmh: 20:57:30 I want make-instance with some initargs to return a already-existing object with suitable slots, in case one has already been made. 20:57:32 dl: has that just started happening with the new sbcl? 20:57:51 kreuter: I think that's verboten 20:57:56 make-instance makes instances 20:57:58
drewc: no, it has been (apparently) happening for some time now... 20:58:13
i just upgraded to 1.0.25 to make sure it hadn't gotten fixed somehow 20:58:29 kreuter: oic. can i suggest a make-foo function? 20:58:29 -!- user___ [n=user@p54927837.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:59:13 dl: what makes you sure it's a sbcl issue and not a bug somewhere else? can you re-create it? 20:59:19 drewc: that's what I've got now, but I noticed that I was reinventing a measure of default-initargs machinery, and wondered if I couldn't add an :AROUND method ALLOCATE-INSTANCE, which gets called with the defaulted initargs. 20:59:50 -!- florist [i=shreyas@unaffiliated/florist] has quit ["leaving"] 20:59:51
drewc: I've not tried to recreate it... :P (sorry) 21:00:02 Krystof: verboten? that's disappointing. 21:00:04 right, of course. I get you. 21:00:58
I'm *fairly* certain its an SBCL issue - it seems to occur when 2 (or more) monitor threads run concurrantly 21:01:15 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@0x573fd50a.arcnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 21:01:34 kreuter: if not verboten then at least highly dubious; the description of make-instance is that it returns a fresh instance; the description of allocate-instance is that it allocates an instance 21:01:51 dl: that's not sure enough. create a small test case the demonstrates the problem. :) 21:02:23 maybe you want an ensure-instance function which looks a bit like make-instance except that it calls some extra functions? 21:02:48 can one do that? how do you access the initarg defaulting machinery? 21:03:05 (i.e., the elipses in the example code in 7.1.7.) 21:03:17 *drewc* pulls out AMOP 21:03:29 wait ... i've done that before... 21:03:45 I mean, I dig that this is quasi-MOP stuff. 21:04:09 but I'm sorta surprised if it's really prohibited. 21:04:11 kreuter: what about reinitialize-instance? 21:04:15 (sb-mop:class-default-initargs (find-class 'standard-generic-function)) 21:04:44 drewc: I don't understand your question. 21:05:51 -!- tsuru [n=user@66.199.17.194] has left #lisp 21:06:06 kreuter: actually, NM, i have it backwards. Are you against creating a new instance and checking the slots against the hashed values? 21:06:12 anybody know of a portable mailbox (the multi thread data transfer) implemenation? 21:06:18 Zephtar [n=srusek@d57-112.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:06:26 i don't want to directyly usethe one in slime. 21:06:27 drewc: I'd rather avoid making the new instance if possible, yeah. 21:06:47 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 21:08:05 hm. I guess there's no reason to suppose that INITIALIZE-INSTANCE might do something reasonable if its first argument is an already-initialized instance. okay. 21:08:11 -!- Cronos|away [n=a@5ad305a5.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 21:08:30 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:09:04 is your goal to not create instances with the same slot values, or to not create instances with the same initialization arguments? 21:09:05 Okay, if you go to http://mycroft.mozdev.org/ and search for the l1sp plugin, you can download a search plugin for l1sp.org. It seems to work. Let me know if it doesn't. 21:09:17 why does asdf have this operate function instead of havin a load-op function instead? 21:09:34 well, the instances are immutable, so they reduce to almost the same. 21:09:43 sepisultrum: because there are other operations, and asdf was intended as a substrate for other software 21:09:45 it's not by chance specified that the :default-initargs are passed to shared-initialize as keywords, is it? that'd work. 21:09:58 kreuter: only if you have a one-to-one relationship between slots and initargs 21:10:01 sepisultrum, taking advantage of eql specializers in its code 21:10:11 Krystof: I said almost. :) 21:10:27 well, I started by writing down the class definition that would be hardest to implement this for 21:10:28 (let ((x 1)) 21:10:28 (defclass foo () 21:10:28 ((x :initarg :x :initarg :y) (y :initarg :y)) 21:10:28 (:default-initargs :y x))) 21:10:32 sepisultrum: everybody i know has a (defun asdf-load (&rest systems)...) in their sbclrc 21:10:37 *Krystof* doesn't 21:10:43 *nyef* doesn't. 21:10:49 *kreuter* neither! 21:10:51 tmh: works beautifully, thanks 21:10:52 deepfire: hmm, couldn't they have used clos for this? 21:10:54 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:11:01 We have REQUIRE, after all. 21:11:10 somehow missed the 'almost' there. 21:11:18 yeah, that would be my second question 21:11:21 (And it's not -that- hard to bang out an (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op ) directly.) 21:11:35 ,load-system is nice too. 21:11:40 sepisultrum: use ,load at the slime repl; this way you get handy tab completion, too 21:11:43 when to use require, when asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op ? 21:11:50 (,l) 21:12:13 drewc: ,l works too 21:12:19 sepisultrum: REQUIRE isn't portably defined to do anything useful, so it's a bit system-dependent. 21:12:32 stassats: i learn something new every day! :) 21:12:38 kreuter: if it's initargs (including default-initargs), then this is easy 21:12:46 ,l is nice :D 21:12:50 if it's actual slot-values-after-initialization, then it's tricky 21:12:52 nyef: more-than-unary require is portable, fwiw. 21:12:52 Slime uses PROVIDE/REQUIRE quite successfully :) 21:13:06 kreuter: But require loading asdf systems isn't. 21:13:07 nyef: aha. 21:13:20 nyef: yeah, yeah. I'm just sayin', is all. 21:13:33 Anyway, back to the unwind. 21:14:00 ,sayonara hehe 21:14:01 Krystof: I think for what I'm doing that hashing instances on some canonicalized sorting of the defaulted initargs list suffices. 21:15:18 it's not really that important; I was just slightly surprised that it wasn't easy to do, since hashing instances is an old-timey trick for memory management. 21:15:36 (well, and hashed instances make EQL specializers handier) 21:15:42 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:51 they probably used hashed conses :) 21:17:04 a whole instance? How wasteful 21:17:04 <_death> tcr: well, the default asdf module provider that comes with sbcl's contrib does something more than just plain load-op 21:17:12 okay. :) 21:17:49 _death: ,load does more than plain load-op, too, for that matter. 21:18:01 <_death> yeah 21:18:14 <_death> I wonder why both try to be "smart" and do that 21:18:23 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:26 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [No route to host] 21:18:36 for that matter was perhaps ambiguous, I don't know what you were referring to 21:19:04 ,load does more in so far as it grabs on all compilation notes possibly produced by the load-op 21:19:47 Why isn't stale fasl recompilation the default? 21:20:00 <_death> tcr: what about warnings? 21:20:32 ... Oh, right. No wonder I couldn't find the UNWIND VOP. I forgot that it's generated from the assembly-routine. >_< 21:21:04 deepfire: probably there's no specific reason, but it's not really the right thing in ASDF in general. 21:21:15 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@41.247.199.21] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:21:17 elurin` [n=user@85.99.88.66] has joined #lisp 21:22:15 by the time that LOAD gets called, ASDF has constructed a plan which is at least potentially different than the plan ASDF would construct when it had to compile the file. 21:22:30 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.88.66] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:22:34 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 21:22:42 Btw, the error I got earlier on was caused by wrong parameters 21:22:51 You know, there's probably an actual use-case for loading in a different order than compilation... 21:22:53 -!- elurin` [n=user@85.99.88.66] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:22:58 (and so some compilation prerequisites may not have been satisfied by the time LOAD has a problem. OTOH, LOAD could try loading the source file.) 21:23:05 Or loading a different set of files than were compiled. 21:23:13 stepnem_ [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:35 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:13 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:24:16 kreuter, AIUI, the problem is in the overly optimistic assumption on ASDF's part, namely that fasl presence implies its loadability. 21:24:21 -!- stepnem_ is now known as stepnem 21:24:44 deepfire: yeah, that's one way of looking at it. 21:24:45 Probably this can be regarded as a bug. 21:25:26 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:25:27 (well, existence and adequate timestamps) 21:25:40 I've noticed that I'll use ASDF for anything easily managed by a :serial t system, and anything more complex than that has its own build system that is not ASDF. 21:25:48 maacl [n=mac@0x558168c9.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has joined #lisp 21:26:47 Krystof pasted "ensure-instance" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75296 21:26:54 Of course the solution requires implementation-side support, perhaps in form of LOADABLE-P.. 21:27:07 Krystof: heh, thanks. you didn't need to go to the trouble. 21:27:18 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:27:20 meh, it's got to be better than C++ 21:27:23 deepfire: Wrong solution, unless LOADABLE-P is user-extensible. 21:27:32 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x558168c9.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 21:27:49 nyef, why? is LOAD user-extensible? 21:27:50 kreuter: try it and see if it works :-) 21:28:21 matley [n=matley@83.224.133.144] has joined #lisp 21:28:30 -!- ginkgo [n=user@chello084113198244.17.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:31 Krystof: will do. 21:28:58 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]"] 21:28:59 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:29:03 deepfire: Is #p"/home/nyef/src/lisp/some-project/some-file.fasl" loadable? How do you know? Does it depend on some other file being loaded beforehand or not having been loaded? 21:29:15 as we have observed, it probably won't work too well for classes with complicated dependencies between initargs and slots. It can be made to work with MORE SMARTS 21:29:30 Will it load without visible error but silently do the wrong thing under certain circumstances? 21:29:31 (that is, it's deterministic and introspectable; it just takes a wodge of code) 21:29:41 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:51 nyef, oh, bad choice of name on my part, sorry... I actually meaned something like compiled-file-loadable-p 21:30:02 nyef: I think there's some equivocation there. I believe deepfire was talking about whether LOAD will signal an error, not about whether the consequences of the LOAD are semantically cromulent. 21:30:43 nyef, or even, compiled-file-header-says-the-architecture-is-okay-and-the-implementation-is-too-p 21:30:46 kreuter: But if it's just the "will signal an error" thing, that's still undecidable without trying it, and would merely encourage more subtle bugs anyway. 21:32:20 SBCL already does it, AIUI, that function just needs to be exported.. 21:32:32 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:33:43 Doesn't need exporting if this is for your personal use. :-P 21:34:09 nyef, for our collective personal use of automated fasl recompilation :-) 21:34:39 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp183-63.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:34:45 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.155.56] has quit ["Bruce Schneier's wedding invitations included instructions for participating in a cryptographically secure RSVP protocol."] 21:35:47 I suppose now is not the time to suggest a handler-bind for the bogus fasl condition (whatever it's called) from sbcl? 21:36:53 -!- psyllo [n=user@70.102.172.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:03 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:30 This is no joy if everybody has to go through the same chores, for years.. 21:38:37 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 21:39:15 You set up a new account and diligently add whatever-the-incantation to your .sbclrc.. 21:40:13 auclairb [n=auclairb@dhcp180-24.residence.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 21:40:30 ... Let me guess... lexical exit points (tagbody tags and blocks) are represented as catch-blocks rather than unwind-blocks? 21:41:12
drewc: thats fair. That being said, are there any known easy ways to screw up streams when threads are involved? 21:41:28 *dl* would like to be sure its not some glaring bug in his code :) 21:43:37 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:43:54 kuwabara1 [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 21:44:15 dl: many, i'm sure. I can't think of anything beyond the usual concurrency issues, but i'd bet there are some dragons. 21:44:52 The stream buffers probably aren't locked. 21:45:21 dl: By far, the fastest way to figure out the issue is to reduce it to a simple test case. Usually i never get that far and find the problem on the way. 21:45:35 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:47
drewc: I'm workin on it ... :) 21:45:50 dl: especially when dealing with threads and shared state :) 21:46:40 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:47:08 *drewc* thinks the better idea would be to not read streams from more than one thread, but what does he know. 21:47:18 :) 21:47:30 -!- demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig108.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has left #lisp 21:47:55 Reading streams from more than one thread without being -very- careful with synchronization? 21:49:21 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e44a16f.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:53:04 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-119-084.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:07
thanks nyef & drew I think you've helped immensely :) 21:53:41 *dl* is getting near a simple test case & thinks he may see the problem :) D'OH! :) 21:54:27 *dl* didn't write the code: I'm blaming Ingvar ;) 21:54:59 -!- kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:43 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:57:06 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.133.144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:48 dl: lisp helps those who help themselves :) you are most welcome. 21:58:59 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:41 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:02:02 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."]