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[n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:17:19 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:17:26 from a blog post "Things I now know about XML Schema": "simpleType and simpleContent are easy to confuse, but shouldnt be confused." without knowing anything about XML Schema, I have the feeling this is the same sort of problem as with simple-vector vs. simple-array... 00:21:26 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-130-133.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:25:16 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:25:33 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-204-206.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:28:25 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 00:34:15 kpreid: ITYM simple-array vs. simple-string. :) 00:34:28 that too! 00:34:43 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A26957.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:34:44 actually, I far more often hear about s-v vs. s-a 00:35:00 loz- [n=loz@236.149.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:35:40 really? s-v is a subtype of s-a. 00:36:10 that simple-string and simple-bit-vector aren't subtypes of simple-vector is the thing that trips me up. 00:36:18 people are regularly surprised that specialized S-As are not S-Vs 00:36:58 oh 00:37:30 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@dialin-80-228-14-022.ewetel.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:37 even the issue of what's confusing about the types is confusing! 00:37:39 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-130-51.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:55 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:40:08 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.21.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:41:54 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:54:17 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:02:03 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A623.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:02:49 drafael 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-!- jaoswald [n=user@user-12lcm4g.cable.mindspring.com] has left #lisp 02:45:42 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-204-023.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:15 -!- antoni [n=antoni@173.pool85-53-22.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [] 02:50:57 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-131-127.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:52:38 benny` [n=benny@i577A0A0D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:53:44 easch [n=easch@purpletree.org] has joined #lisp 02:56:25 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-108.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:57:52 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-108.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:00:16 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-229-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:01:54 loz- [n=loz@236.149.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:01:58 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:04:41 Cagdas [n=chatzill@78.190.141.169] has joined #lisp 03:06:58 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A015E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:07:11 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-87-237.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:08:06 -!- Cagdas is now known as koyunbaba 03:13:09 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:16:59 -!- blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:17:45 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:29 blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:40:05 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:40:11 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:43:28 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:45:58 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 03:48:04 Would you consider anything else than SBCL, ClozureCL, CLISP, Allegro, and LispWorks major implementations, worth testing my code (CL-PNG) on before releasing a new version? 03:49:09 Might try ECL. 03:53:36 thanks 03:55:01 bashyal_ [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 03:56:19 Another question: Is (asdf:system-relative-pathname (asdf:find-system '#:png) #p"PngSuite/") the best way to find the pathname to a subdirectory in the source tree? (It contains image files used in some unit tests.) 03:56:22 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:57:15 I guess just (asdf:system-relative-pathname '#:png "PngSuite/") is sufficient. 03:58:04 pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167215006.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:49 hello... i want to learn Common Lisp... I learned Scheme a long time ago in a course, we used some program where your code was interpretted in a box, without the output shown within the interface... 03:59:08 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:59:43 what's a good free CL compiler? 03:59:59 im using an intel mac btw 04:00:12 sbcl probably 04:00:53 okay.... better than GNU Lisp Compiler? 04:00:58 pokey19: sbcl or CCL are good on OSX. 04:01:08 pokey19: sbcl and clozurecl are your best bets 04:02:02 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 04:02:02 oh yeah... and could anyone recomend a book or a web resource that is good for learning Common Lisp (ideally for someone who already has a basic grasp of Lisp syntax) ....might be a little too specific a request :P 04:02:17 minion: Tell pokey19 about that-dead-sexy-book. 04:02:18 pokey19: have a look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 04:02:23 pokey19: Practical Common Lisp is supposed to be good. 04:02:25 After spending 5 days finding one bug, I'm reading "What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating Point Arithmetic" and cringing 04:02:46 manic12_: Because it's wrong, or because the title is far too apt? 04:02:57 pokey19: I learned it from Paul Graham's _ANSI Common Lisp_. 04:03:40 -!- bashyal_ [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 04:03:54 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 04:04:05 pokey19: and the next book I read was Paul Graham's _On Lisp_. 04:04:39 minion: Graham crackers? 04:04:39 Graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 04:04:43 minion, ljosa: thanks... these look promising 04:04:44 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 04:05:19 sbt [n=sbt@rrcs-208-125-96-78.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:05:54 Warning, his code can be funky. 04:06:06 I hate his prune. 04:06:21 Practical Common Lisp online - sweet! 04:06:40 There's a simpler prune that's as fast an admits a much nicer inductive proof. 04:06:53 s/an/and/ 04:07:32 newbie question: I'm using SBCL w/ slime. sometimes when I load a file, annoying messages such as "The object file /home/sbt/work/nlp/hw1/model.fasl is older than the presumed source" appear. is there an easy way to tell SBCL to not worry about this? 04:08:19 sbt: delete the .fasl 04:08:24 :) 04:08:32 nyef: I have been insulated way too long from the reality of floating point operations and must learn the correct way to do this, if only to correct this library which is not my own 04:08:33 apart from deleting the fasl 04:08:42 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.141.13] has joined #lisp 04:08:45 I recall some hacks to deal with stale fasls, but I don't remember them. 04:09:04 minion: stale fasls? 04:09:04 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 04:09:07 :( 04:09:14 sbt: If you really believe that the fasl is more correct than the source, use the "touch" utility. 04:09:25 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Automatic-Recompilation-of-Stale-Fasls.html 04:09:35 Minion is HHG's Marvin implemented in elisp? 04:10:36 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 04:11:22 caoliver: http://www.cliki.net/minion Common Lisp. 04:11:26 ok, so recompiling and loading works. guess this calls for a new utility function. thanks sykopomp! 04:11:45 sbt: see the link 04:11:51 be warned that it isn't portabel. 04:11:54 ..ble* 04:12:22 Or portabella. 04:12:38 hm, that makes me hungry :) 04:13:18 And all I have at the ready is popcorn. 04:15:15 portabella would make a good name for a library 04:15:49 hmm... there's someone working on a pattern matcher named after a mushroom. 04:16:06 thanks for the help. Good night Lispists 04:16:12 Toadstool, I think. 04:16:28 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.141.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:16:47 -!- pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167215006.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [] 04:19:03 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.141.13] has joined #lisp 04:20:19 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-41.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 04:20:23 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:23:12 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:21 -!- blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:29:15 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:29:53 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:30:46 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:31:10 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:34:47 -!- repnop [n=repnop@adsl-69-225-2-177.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:35:23 kennyd [n=gest@219.249.206.84] has joined #lisp 04:43:07 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-71-165-20-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:45:33 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:49:43 repnop [n=repnop@adsl-69-225-2-177.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:10 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:51:06 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 04:51:51 -!- ljosa [n=ljosa@c-76-119-125-184.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["good night"] 04:53:43 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:44 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:55:12 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 04:55:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:16 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:57:06 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 04:57:18 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:00:38 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-204-023.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 05:05:35 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 05:09:28 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.141.13] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:09:43 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.141.13] has joined #lisp 05:13:04 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:17:17 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.141.13] has quit [Success] 05:17:36 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.141.13] has joined #lisp 05:22:35 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177147157.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:23:10 rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:24:01 -!- bhz- [n=resm@62.57.239.236.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [] 05:24:03 -!- kennyd [n=gest@219.249.206.84] has quit [] 05:24:04 hi, say i have a list ((a b) (c d)), how do i add (e f) to it to make it ((a b) (c d) (e f)) 05:25:06 rfgpfeiffer [n=rfgpfeif@e178203078.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:25:07 rullie: this sounds like homework. 05:25:44 clhs append 05:25:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm 05:25:49 no, i'm parsing a log file, and each entry is a list, i wanna concat them into a single list and pass that to another func for mapcar 05:26:31 append merges them into a single list, no? 05:26:31 is (e f) supposed to be something like (property value)? 05:26:32 appending to the end of list is not a good idea 05:26:54 sykopomp: something like that. but it's more like (time alias msg) 05:27:03 I see 05:27:29 essentially, i'm trying to get a 2d list going on... 05:27:41 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_conses.htm Look through this. 05:27:49 it depends on how you want to work with things :P 05:28:34 what's the best "IDE" of lisp out there (any dialect is "acceptable")? [i'm not looking for a discussion, but a simple suggestion :)] 05:28:46 slime 05:28:53 Pegazus: slime, if you're talking about Common Lisp 05:29:03 for Scheme IDEs, please refer to #scheme 05:29:14 ok, thanks... 05:29:46 rullie: (loop for log-entry = (get-log-entry 'from-file) collect log-entry) 05:30:15 jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:42 there's not much scehem ide, i believe 05:30:56 some schemes work with slime 05:31:48 stassats: DrScheme seems pretty famous. 05:31:54 stassats: oh 05:31:59 I don't know much about scheme though. 05:32:08 sykopomp: yes, it is the one 05:32:18 stassats: let me disect that line, i'm very new to lisp :p 05:32:39 rullie: the only thing you have to write is (get-log-entry 'from-file) 05:32:41 read PCL chapter on LOOP 05:33:10 minion: pcl? 05:33:11 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:33:41 let me get one thing clear though, say get-log-entry returns a list, will collect 'flattern' the list? 05:33:55 collect won't 05:34:10 append will 05:34:14 ok, sounds good. thanks :) 05:34:14 kennyd [n=mala@ool-4355de30.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:26 yeah, i wish it didnt 05:34:34 or had a way not to 05:35:36 i meant, loop directive append, not lisp function 05:35:42 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:35:57 stassats: but the lisp function append does too... 05:36:01 you can do (append list (list other-list)) for no flattening 05:36:23 o.O let me see 05:36:39 -!- jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:37:35 but since it is a bad idea to append to the end, it's better to do (cons '(1 2 3) '((1 2 3 4))) 05:38:42 ok 05:39:03 anyway, loop with collect is probably what you actually need 05:40:11 yeah, i did a quick test with cons and it gave me this (((A B C) D E F) G H I) 05:40:40 -!- ceineke_ [n=chris@CPE001c109fb260-CM001ac319195a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:41:02 swap arguments 05:43:47 haha, yeah that's a bit hackish :p 05:44:27 -!- beach``` is now known as beach 05:44:42 Good morning. 05:46:09 mornin' beach! 05:51:01 -!- postamar [n=postamar@206-248-186-48.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 06:00:10 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 06:00:46 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 06:06:47 Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.103.210] has joined #lisp 06:08:32 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:59 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 06:10:56 -!- ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:11:07 ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:13:34 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 06:14:09 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp87-37.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:14:13 good morning 06:16:34 Beket [n=stathis@ppp87-37.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 06:16:41 morning tic 06:16:57 hello tic 06:24:12 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-250-154-209.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:33 -!- loz- [n=loz@236.149.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:30:04 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.141.13] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:31:26 sykopomp, in your prototype-based system, do you inherit slots at definition time as a one-off operation or are they looked up at runtime (by traversing the inheritance list?) 06:31:50 I seem to have reimplemented generic functions in a prototype-based object system. 06:34:14 whichever one you want. By default, the apparent behavior is inheritance list traversal (although the lookup is actually O(1) now). There is an option for the CLONE macro that allows you to directly copy all values, preventing parent-alteration from bringing unwanted behavior. 06:34:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:44 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 06:35:52 right, it's the latter part I'm wondering about.. perhaps it could be an option to have the parent copied if modified, but on the other hand I'm not sure I'll ever use it. 06:36:30 copied if modified? 06:36:51 say B inherits A, but A is later modified into A'. Then B should still use A, not A'. 06:36:54 optionally, that is. 06:37:09 there is no A anymore, though. 06:37:53 if you don't want A' to change B, then why not just copy it in the first place? (since A is the version you're interested in keeping for B) 06:38:25 because my object system is slightly retarded. .) 06:38:36 o 06:39:11 I mean, it makes sense to want to do that, but I'm not sure what the use of it is. 06:39:13 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.103.210] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:39:34 s/to want to do that/I know what you mean and why it's different/ 06:40:28 Me neither. 06:40:46 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:43:14 Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.101.136] has joined #lisp 06:43:46 -!- ignas__ [n=ignas@static-68-239-80-47.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:49 speaking of sheeple. I finally managed to add (call-next-message) and :around... so now it works mostly like CLOS does, on the generic function front :) It's a happy day. 06:45:03 nice! 06:48:15 what are you working on, by the way? Is it up somewhere? 06:48:16 -!- debs [n=debs@146-115-127-174.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:54:37 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.156.133] has joined #lisp 06:56:04 -!- sbt [n=sbt@rrcs-208-125-96-78.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:57:42 Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has joined #lisp 07:01:44 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:11 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 07:04:44 -!- homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-d007f59f52c106c9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:05:12 homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-baf33c5d4d2c73b0] has joined #lisp 07:06:29 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:30 sykopomp, trying to rewrite a build thingy written in bash. 07:06:35 s/rewrite/replace/ 07:07:18 vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:22 what's the advantage of using prototypes with something like that? (I'm trying to think of what this kind of stuff is actually useful for) 07:07:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 07:10:59 Oh, I just ended up using prototypes. 07:14:23 -!- koyunbaba [n=chatzill@78.190.141.169] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]"] 07:20:38 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.181.52.238] has left #lisp 07:21:53 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:28:49 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 07:30:48 -!- Ky [n=Ky@20.46.pppoe.mari-el.ru] has quit [] 07:34:46 -!- iskander_ [n=iskander@kovu.foxxz.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:37:43 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 07:38:45 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp87-37.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:43:53 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 07:45:12 I'd like to see a list of ways you want to use a prototype-based system that aren't readily expressed in CLOS 07:45:44 didn't I already go through this with you? I can provide that easily, though. 07:46:23 maybe, I'm a little dense 07:46:26 for one, property inheritance and the ability to alter an object further up the inheritance chain, and have the *values* apply to all child objects. 07:47:40 hm. Okay, I can't find the actual list. There weren't too many things, only about 2-3 items that were important enough that I didn't want to use CLOS for it. 07:48:10 Where you have a bunch of similar enemies in your game, then one that's unique? 07:48:17 oh right. Dynamic redefinition of everything, manipulation of parents on the fly... which mostly works in SBCL, but not quite as nicely. 07:48:40 Aankhen``: You can have a parent object that defines some properties, and some values, and all its children inherit those values. 07:48:57 *Aankhen``* was just prompting. 07:49:05 yes. Sorry. 07:49:11 that's basically it. 07:50:06 the other aspect that is pretty nice is that inheritance doesn't bottom out 07:50:27 I'll generally support dropping CLOS at the first impedance mismatch with what you're trying to do, I just think it's fair to apply the skepticism both ways 07:50:48 oh, trust me, I tried hard to do everything on top of CLOS :) 07:51:03 and hey, reinventing stuff is fun! 07:51:11 It might be possible, but I certainly couldn't find a way to do it. The first thing I did when I got my list was to get AMOP and see what I could do. 07:51:11 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 07:51:20 sykopomp: Wait, did you end up not using CLOS or the MOP? 07:51:34 I was under the impression that you'd used the MOP to do magic. 07:51:34 I am suspicious when people say they're inventing new object systems, though 07:51:49 hefner: I haven't. Sheeple is essentially CLOS with prototypes. 07:52:12 the syntax is essentially the same, the semantics of most of it is essentially the same. 07:52:24 except it's prototypes instead of classes that you interact with. 07:52:41 anyway, sounds reasonable.. I think.. 07:52:54 Part of the reason for all the cheeky names for Sheeple stuff is that I just had to find alternate names for things that were basically the same in CLOS 07:53:32 defbuzzword => defgeneric, defmessage => defmethod, :manipulators => :accessors, properties => slots, and so on. 07:54:31 hefner: The goal for Sheeple was to be as close to CLOS as possible. I don't want to reinvent anything, but I want what I wanted. 07:54:56 so, CLOS without Classes? 07:55:12 basically, yeah. 07:55:31 no amount of moppery helped? 07:55:50 (defbuzzword synergize) (defmessage synergize ((foo =string=) (bar =string=)) (concatenate 'string foo bar)) 07:56:06 heh 07:56:15 tic: not that I could find. The more I read AMOP, the more it seemed like it would need a fairly large amount of code to be written, if it was even possible. 07:56:30 particularly because of the distinction between classes and instances. 07:56:31 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp474.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 07:56:43 a class is an instance, too! 07:56:46 and defining a bunch of programmatic classes wouldn't really help the case. 07:56:51 tic: of a metaobject, sure 07:56:53 can you give me an example of how this dynamism gets used, in game terms? 07:57:12 *hefner* vaguely recalls something about adding arms.. 07:58:24 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:59:03 (defvar =standard-human= (clone (=mobile=) ((nose "normal") (ears "normal")))) 07:59:03 (defvar =standard-elf= (clone (=mobile=) ((ears "pointy")))) 07:59:03 (defvar =man-elf= (clone (=standard-human= =standard-elf=) ())) 07:59:03 (defvar =elf-man= (clone (=standard-elf= =standard-human=) ())) 07:59:32 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:07 (ears =elf-man=) => "pointy", (ears =man-elf=) => "normal".... (setf (ears =standard-human=) "rounded"), (ears =man-elf=) => "rounded" 08:00:34 the idea is that you have objects with minimal defaults, and you can alter those defaults across all children by setting the value on the parent. 08:01:02 (ears foo) assumes, actually, that you used the :manipulator ears option in CLONE 08:02:37 -!- younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 08:02:48 the arm-adding thing would be something like (setf (get-property =standard-human= 'arms) "A pair of arms")... (get-property =man-elf= 'arms) => "A pair of arms" 08:05:18 granted, you don't always want this inheritance behavior, so there's options for the CLONE macro that allow you to change the way the clone is being made. You can give it a :copy-all-values option that pulls in all the properties locally (thus not relying on inheritance). There's also the :mitosis option which makes the new object more of a twin than a child (no inheritance of parents, only copying of values and message roles). 08:06:44 this does not seem fundamentally unlike how you'd express it in vanilla CLOS, excepting that you move the relationships to the definition level rather than the instance level 08:08:40 I'm not really sure how the value inheritance would work quite like this in CLOS. 08:08:45 (and modulo various other limitations, maybe partly due to lack of parametric classes) 08:09:32 it's not hugely different, no. There's some key behaviors here that I was looking for, is all. 08:10:08 but then you have awkwardness of your own with all your different varieties of cloning and inheritance behavior, and some funny examples we discussed previously (like every human in the world sharing the same instance of a body part) 08:11:23 I don't know if it's as much awkwardness as it is flexibility. I'm trying to find what the nice happy medium is between having a bunch of different options and getting the behavior just right. 08:12:24 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has joined #lisp 08:12:29 defclass, for example, can get quite fancy at times. Likewise, the clone options are really just syntax sugar for a slightly larger process that you could just write yourself to execute after an object is created. 08:12:53 -!- cavelife [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:13:27 not sharing instances of key objects is definitely a concern, though, although that's something that really the programmer would have to figure out (when do you want to share data, what has to be unique per-instance, etc) 08:14:15 This is fascinating, though. I recall having spent a lot of time mulling over things that just didn't seem to fit CLOS well, without ever arriving at any conclusion, and it's starting to come back to me now. 08:14:34 you were the one I talked to once about eql-specializers, right? 08:14:37 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp474.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:14:56 I don't recall 08:15:02 That's one thing I've been mulling over lately, and I sort of like the implications of method dispatch on what are basically polymorphic equal-specializers. 08:15:09 maybe it wasn't you 08:15:47 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:16:08 I think the most interesting part of this, though, is that CLOS sort of 'bottoms out' at one point -- the instances. 08:16:49 that's sort of where polymorphism stops. With something like this, everything is basically dispatched on an equal-specializer, and if you want to create something -like- your object, and have a method on -that-, you can do that at any time. 08:18:00 with classes, you sort of have to commit to a certain depth of specificity. If you defined your app up to a point, and all your instances are of class X, you made a commitment to X being the most specific type possible that you would need. 08:18:27 but with prototypes, you can just open a trap door right underneath that one instance that isn't quite specific enough, and do something else. 08:18:49 I think that's debatable 08:19:14 aren't you implicitly saying you're going to not touch the CLOS definition level (for lack of a better term) at runtime? 08:19:40 commiting to that, but wanting to redefine/extend things at runtime anyway, you don't have any choice but to reinvent the wheel 08:20:05 (that you can't necessarily express what you want in CLOS anyway is a separate issue) 08:20:10 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:23 you can often commit to specific hierarchies, yes, but having to make that commitment is a hurdle, in my mind. 08:20:47 I think that's the exact opposite of what I mean 08:21:01 but there's also a number of applications where not bottoming out can actually be sort of beneficial... such as stuff like web apps that are just running, are database-backed, etc. 08:21:18 I guess I misunderstood, then. 08:21:27 I'm reading you as saying you're comitted to a fixed hierarchy (because you refuse to actually use CLOS and define a new class at runtime, perhaps) 08:21:37 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 08:22:07 I'm saying that instances are the bottom of the hierarchy, and you can't keep extending it from there (only when you need to) 08:22:12 here's an example... 08:22:23 wearables => clothing => shirts 08:22:34 shirts is the lowest class 08:22:46 so you go ahead and make a bunch of shirts for your store 08:23:44 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-072-254.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:58 but now you realize you want different shirts. In a class-based thing, you have to then define several kinds of shirts, and make the instances be that. Okay, so far so good. Let's add the polo-shirt and t-shirt classes. 08:24:22 I'm not sure if I'd have a wearable or clothing class, but proceed 08:25:03 actually, I guess I would, but I'd grumble a bit first 08:25:10 well, what if you have, say, an online store, where wearables are treated specially and put in a different section? (including things such as glasses and shoes, while 'clothing' might be more cloth-based) 08:25:17 anyways 08:25:47 now you have t-shirts and polos, and you make a bunch of instances of that. I'm not even assuming these are changes you might want to make at run-time, for the sake of argument. 08:26:26 I'd just reply with a question about why you're afraid to define classes at run-time, anyway 08:27:10 so you have a bunch of polos and t-shirts... but then you decide you want to have your lacoste polos be separated from the old navy ones. So you make these two classes (we're getting to the edge of the practicality of this example) 08:27:25 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 08:27:41 The reason this would be terrible at run-time is because you would be making a bunch of instances, and you'd have to migrate all your instances over to the new class, which would be quite a hassle. 08:27:47 although it's possible in CLOS (with hassle) 08:28:13 I mean, this can keep going. You might want to dispatch some methods only on green shirts that are also lacoste 08:28:33 it can keep going, yes 08:28:37 these are decisions you can't always foresee before you compile the actual thing, hence the commitment part... 08:29:07 so what you're really complaining about is that you can't specialize methods on arbitrary properties you make up as you go along, only classes (or eql) 08:29:36 now, the difference here is that if you were trying to do this in CLOS, you'd have a regular mess of redefine-class and change-class, making sure all the values went on fine... and on top of that, you can't keep your methods the same, you have to redefine those, too. 08:29:52 again, all this stuff -is- possible with class-based OOP 08:29:57 well, make up your mind how you want to do this first 08:29:59 -!- kennyd [n=mala@ool-4355de30.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 08:30:13 I don't have to. I can change it on the fly (that's sort of the point) 08:30:28 yeah, but your argument is a little muddled 08:30:47 my point, in essence, is that CLOS can do this in the same way Java can have multiple dispatch :) 08:31:13 there's two things here, a class system, and a dispatch mechanism 08:31:38 right 08:31:39 what you seem to be saying is that since the dispatch mechanism won't do what you want, you'll nuke them both and write your own 08:32:14 but implicitly that it's somehow the class system's fault, which is a different question 08:32:16 not quite, no. The property access mechanism doesn't do quite what I want, either. 08:32:18 bhz- [n=limn@user-69-1-52-147.knology.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:24 jacks- [n=mala@ool-4355de30.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:33 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:21 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 08:33:26 in a class-based system, I can't alter what values all shirts (and beyond) have in common, by simply setting a value in =shirt= 08:33:32 so on one hand you can screw up by encoding into the class hierarchy things which you really need to be properties of your instances 08:34:22 well, no, but you can define a method on shirt 08:34:53 I can, but I can't keep it going. It bottoms out at eql :P 08:35:20 by cloning, I can keep all my methods -and- my properties, and still be able to set new ones. 08:35:55 all shirts are shirts 08:36:01 with classes, you have to take a step back, make a new class, redefine your methods, and then migrate instances. 08:36:12 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Operation timed out] 08:36:30 that's quite a lot just to add some new categories to your online store, imo 08:37:43 isn't this still a case of trying to cram instance properties into the class hierarchy to placate CLOS's default dispatch mechanism, rather than writing one more appropriate? 08:38:18 jamesvx [i=james@c-67-184-235-138.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:20 -!- jamesvx [i=james@c-67-184-235-138.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 08:38:29 I don't see how, no. 08:38:30 the question then is whether there is any fixed structure to your universe which you can encode as classes 08:38:57 if not, they become irrelevant containers 08:39:24 I'm finding classes less and less useful, to be honest. 08:40:30 the more I play with this, the more it seems like classes are really just a subset of what prototype-based stuff provides. 08:40:50 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:40:59 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:23 I'm not the person to mount an impassioned defense of classes, but prototypes still sound wonky to me 08:41:36 I never learned smalltalk, but to listen to them, they seem to get up to some really daft things 08:41:42 well, that's not fair 08:41:55 that's delegation, I guess 08:42:35 *hefner* has confused himself, will go to sleep now 08:42:45 goodnight. Thanks for the conversation :) 08:43:13 I'm still trying to rationalize about what these prototype things actually provide. Really, the only solid thing I know is that they seem to work quite nicely with MUDs 08:43:30 and that's from actually having used them in a MUD running LPC. 08:43:33 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:46:53 mud-like world modelling is a great domain to explore these issues in 08:50:39 -!- pjb [n=t@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:51:18 I admit, I'm really wary of my current mood. I feel like I have a shiny new hammer and everything looks like a nail. Being careful. 09:00:24 -!- jacks- [n=mala@ool-4355de30.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 09:00:58 <_death> fe[nl]ix: awake? 09:04:18 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:48 elurin [n=user@88.254.105.194] has joined #lisp 09:05:30 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:05:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 09:06:38 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 09:09:01 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:09:15 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:13:19 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:21 is there a way to muffle style-warnings in certain situations? 09:15:40 nevermind, that's a stupid question. It's too late at night. handler-case will do. 09:15:52 clhs MUFFLE-WARNING 09:15:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_muffle.htm 09:15:57 or not 09:15:58 thanks 09:19:04 -!- prip [n=_prip@host155-194-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:57 prip [n=_prip@host202-129-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:21:51 schasi [n=schasi@p54A24A8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:13 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:25:02 that doesn't seem to work on style-warnings 09:25:10 minion: memo for hefner: They're like classes when you need them to be. http://github.com/sykopomp/sheeple/blob/1e9f5360d6b176406eb68ebcd3cd20d19aba6ca4/demo/classes.lisp 09:25:10 Remembered. I'll tell hefner when he/she/it next speaks. 09:25:43 stassats: no, it doesn't. But it's 4:30am and I think I'm better off going to sleep and worrying about all those nasty messages about unused functions later. 09:27:13 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:28:02 (locally (declare (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:style-warning)) (defun foo (x))) seems to work 09:28:35 that's not portable :-\ 09:28:56 well, style-warning are not portable too 09:29:00 iskander_ [n=iskander@kovu.foxxz.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:08 ah, I see. 09:29:10 LostMonarch [n=roby@host108-177-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:29:28 well, what's going on is that I have an flet in a macro-generated lambda. The functions defined there don't always get used. 09:29:37 sbcl also has sb-ext:*muffled-warnings* 09:29:46 <_death> declare ignorable 09:29:49 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:29:51 so i get a nasty message every time the macroexpansion gets evaluated. 09:30:16 ignorable didn't help, either. Actually, ignorable went out of its way to throw -more- stuff at me "Ignoring ignorable value xxx" 09:30:53 that is in sbcl? 09:30:59 yes 09:31:43 <_death> nopaste 09:32:01 hmm, i don't recall that it barf on unused locale funtions 09:32:31 sykopomp pasted "compile-barf" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75046 09:32:56 oh pft 09:33:02 hold on 09:33:10 <_death> missing (function ...) 09:33:43 yes, just noticed :) 09:34:04 ahhh much better. That did it. 09:34:09 pesky lisp-2 ;) 09:34:55 H4ns [n=hans@dslb-088-071-068-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:07 _death, stassats: thank you. Goodnight (for real) 09:36:16 vy [n=user@88.227.54.135] has joined #lisp 09:41:39 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 09:45:53 hmm I might need a style recommendation... I have a library which defines a class (client) and some generic functions for it, but lets user code define methods (which are invoked as callbacks)... however this library instanciates that class, and it'd be useful for user code to extend it by defining a new class using that said class as superclass (i.e. http-client) 09:46:15 any saner recommendation than having user code pass 'http-client to the library at init time? 09:48:14 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:49:29 let the user pass the class name to instantiate 09:51:11 hmm so this confirms that what I had in mind ('http-client passed to library at init time) is not "bad style"? :) 09:51:24 why would you think it is bad style? 09:51:42 I might have missed some important clos magic feature :) 09:52:02 thanks for the confirmation 09:52:17 how would you want it to work instead? 09:53:57 initially I thought about something like just extending the class and defining methods on said new class and hope that the library would invoke the proper methods, but then realized it'd be impossible considering the lib would instanciate "client" and user code define methods on the child 09:54:15 especially if generic functions are already defined on "client" 09:55:01 well not impossible perhaps but it'd be very awkward 09:55:24 if you really want that, you could just not define methods for the generic functions specialized on 'client and have the user do that instead. 09:55:38 Why not have the user instantiate it, instead? 09:55:50 i'd think that having the user specify a different class would be better style, though. 09:56:23 phadthai: My favourite dish :) 09:56:44 it's true that the server could invoke a user call back at connection arrival, although it currently takes care of networking and socket-associated buffers 09:56:49 Is there a particularly good reason for the library do to the instantiation? 09:57:59 I'd get the server to just call a procedure that returns the object and allow the user to specify this. 09:58:14 I'll note these two other possibilities and will see which works best for this situation I guess 09:58:41 Zhivago: makes sense, as the user instanciated class would have client as superclass the library could initialize the remaining fields 09:59:16 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:34 Also makes instrumentation easier -- the user can include logging code in that procedure. 10:00:27 the library does this though but the logging would be less abstract 10:00:43 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 10:00:44 there is already init/exit per-client callbacks however 10:01:35 Jabberwockey: one of my multiple favorites here :) 10:01:39 The library could just use a generic method for instantiating connections, in which case the user could subclass and specialize it 10:02:02 phadthai: You live in Thailand? 10:02:39 Jabberwockey: absolutely not, I'm Canadian, but I enjoy exotic foods 10:02:56 pjb [n=t@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:03:36 thanks again for the tips, I makes me review the various possibilities 10:04:40 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.101.136] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:05:04 Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.101.136] has joined #lisp 10:05:29 vio [n=vio@79.116.116.83] has joined #lisp 10:05:46 hello lisp people 10:06:27 hi vio 10:06:28 :) 10:07:01 -!- H4ns [n=hans@dslb-088-071-068-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:07:17 i'm new to the language ... i was wondering if there is a function in common lisp that returns 1 for T and 0 for nil ... converting to C style truth that is 10:07:44 you don't need it 10:08:51 depends what your trying to do stassats .. you might need it 10:08:56 but it's trivial to implement vio 10:09:09 (lambda (x) (if x 1 0)) 10:09:10 (defun foreign-boolean (val) (if val 1 0)) heh 10:09:24 hi phadthai :) 10:09:32 trivial indeed but i don't like reinventing the weel 10:09:40 (lambda (x) (abs (- (length (string x)) 3))) 10:09:43 that's understandable 10:09:46 hello AllNight^ 10:09:47 AllNight^: obviously not for "converting to C style truth" 10:10:08 I mean: (lambda (x) (abs (truncate (- (length (string x)) 3) 2))) 10:10:21 but no - as far as i'm aware there's no standard function for doing that 10:10:43 though.. that does raise another interesting question I've been meaning to ask 10:10:48 if i want to count even elements in a list you would have something like ... i'll be back with a paste 10:11:04 (count-if #'evenp list) 10:11:10 becuase it seems like there are _lots_ of 'trivial' functions that arent actually in the standard 10:11:22 & which consequently get written over & over & over again 10:11:23 e.g. 10:11:42 (lambda (x) (if list? x x (list x)) 10:12:07 now arguably we should have a standard library of such functions - so that they have standard names 10:12:36 AllNight^: But they DO have a standard name! (lambda (x) (if (list x) x (list x))) IS the standard name for it! 10:12:43 and such a library could be in practice very useful 10:12:57 AllNight^: No it wouldn't. 10:13:13 for example - haskell, python, etc - there's a rich collection of standardised list manipulating functions out there 10:13:19 ITYM (if (listp x) ... 10:13:24 some of which arent quite _so_ trivial to implement 10:13:26 ejs [n=eugen@17-228-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:29 it's harder for me to remember a zillion names than a thousand rules 10:14:08 well people would doubtless wind up reinventing many of them anyway ... but just becuase writing 'sort' is quite easy 10:14:09 AllNight^: Perhaps you should go and patent ensure-list ? 10:14:16 AllNight: Write a library 10:14:21 doesnt mean you want to dispense with having it in the library 10:14:31 vio pasted "count" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75049 10:14:40 Zhivago - I was coming to that... becuase I'm proposing to do _exactly_ that - in common-lisp & GPL it 10:14:46 vio: have you seen (count-if (function evenp) list) above? 10:14:51 Excellent. 10:14:53 but I was wondering what people thought should go in said library 10:14:54 AllNight^: bsdl it, you mean? :) 10:15:03 :) 10:15:13 pjb, i did ... i was just trying to simplify the example i actually have 10:15:45 something that might not be easily reduced to a count-if/mapcar or something like that 10:15:53 vio: there's no need to reinvent the wheel! A lot of CL functions actually implement features of whole famillies of functions in other languages/libraries. 10:15:55 vio: don't leave parentheses alone on lines 10:16:07 phadthai - I'd rather not get into license wars... but something free anyway :) 10:16:16 vio: you failed. 10:16:38 stassats, can you point me to some style guidelines ? 10:16:50 yes, wait a second 10:17:04 pjb, i did ? you mean it's counting wrong ? :) 10:17:04 http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps 10:17:14 thanks stassats 10:17:41 vio: you're example reduces to (count-if (function evenp) list) which is easy. 10:18:16 ok pjb i'll get back with the real example 10:18:53 and real example shouldn't use recursion 10:19:30 but I like recursion! (seriously most lisp-implementations provide tail-recursion elimination, the standard may not mandate it - but in practice you've probably got it) 10:19:37 Ah, this is when US university students crawl back to school, isn't it? 10:19:45 (loop for i in list count (evenp i)) if you like it more 10:20:09 like weak-references (also not in the standard - but in practice in every non-student-project lisp implemenation I know of) 10:20:55 Maybe the standard should require a garbage collector, too :) 10:22:01 no reason for it to Zhivago - after all if you have infinite RAM.... :D 10:22:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:36 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:53 if you don't produce garbage, you don't need to collect it 10:23:10 heh 10:23:26 ah - you mean if (ecologically-friendlyp my-code) 10:23:27 :) 10:24:07 (seriously - it's true - and I know of at least some work done on writing real-time systems in Lisp which does exactly that - everything's written in a way that ensures no garbage will be generated ... it's kind of an odd style for Lisp though) 10:24:14 what do people use to keep their sanity when running multiple instances of a lisp on a remote server all doing production work? I have had a webserver running for the last 3 months under screen and emacs, all i had to do was resume a screen session, but this is wasteful on a VPS. 10:24:49 I'm more interested in preventing the garbage-collector from introducing unbounded unpredictable delays 10:24:58 (elisp - I'm looking at you) 10:25:11 fusss: dettachtty + swank? 10:25:17 would it be a good idea if i gave each hunchentoot instance a port in /etc/services and told slime-connect localhost:site-one, localhost:site-two, etc? 10:26:18 fusss: yes, it's a good idea. 10:27:20 thanks folks. wasn't detachtty what dan_b wrote a while back? i used it in 2003 iirc, screen was better back then. 10:29:15 i wouldn't compare screen and detachtty, they are for different tasks 10:30:12 will try both solutions for a few days with two different services then 10:31:52 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 10:38:36 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 10:38:54 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:01 vio annotated #75049 with "count even lists" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75049#1 10:42:14 pjb, here is my real example 10:43:09 basically it calls recursively the function for car, cdr and adds 1 if this the list in car is even length or 0 if it's odd length 10:43:41 this is where c-style truth avoids writing 2 lines (like in the previous example) 10:44:37 makes sense ? :) 10:45:54 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:45:58 no 10:46:31 stassats, the code doesn't make sense or my need for c-true ? 10:46:42 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A623.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:07 pjb, stassats : how would you refactor that ? 10:48:21 vio - are you just trying to count the number of lists of even length that appear in the input -- regardless of what depth they appear at? 10:48:47 yes, that's what count-even-deep does 10:49:38 AllNight: Read about real-time GC algorithms. 10:49:53 or just replace "funcall F" in count-even-aux in function count-even-aux to make it more clear ... i was trying to reuse code for counting at at any level and on surface level too 10:50:02 Incremental collectors, for example. 10:50:09 the only one I know of Zhivago is the metronome algorithm - if you have references to any others I'd appreciate them :) 10:50:31 Uh, read the introductory GC text called "Garbage COllection" 10:51:21 Jones and Lins. 10:51:24 or just replace "funcall F" WITH count-even-aux 10:51:30 -!- benny` is now known as benny 10:51:38 That will give you a reasonably broad background in GC. 10:52:07 vio: a: (count-if (function evenp) list :key (function length)) 10:52:09 one way: (defun count-top-level (list) (count-if #'evenp list :key (lambda (x) (if (listp x) (length x) 1)))) 10:52:34 btw ... let me restate that - I know lots of garbage collection algorithms - the only one I know which gurantees certain timing constraints is Metronome: http://domino.watson.ibm.com/comm/research_projects.nsf/pages/metronome.metronomegc.html 10:52:47 "e goal of the Metronome project is to produce a garbage collector with pause times that are as low as operating system context-switch times in the worst case while providing highly uniform CPU utilization," 10:52:52 The* 10:53:11 but ty :) 10:53:29 that's not real-time 10:54:11 The usual approach with real-time collectors is to do collection work at the point of allocation, in proportion to the amount allocated. 10:54:38 Thus allocating X cons blocks should, on average, do enough work to reclaim 100 cons blocks. 10:54:39 pjb, stassats : give me a min to digest those ... looking up what :key does 10:54:44 I dont know about real-time collectors - I'm certainly going to read that page you linked me to 10:54:50 (defun count-even-length-lists-deep (tree) (if (atom tree) 0 (+ (count-if (function evenp) tree :key (compose length ensure-list)) (mapcar (function count-even-length-lists-deep) tree)))) 10:54:55 I didn't link you to a page. 10:55:14 well - a very quick google found the article you mentioned :) 10:55:24 I didn't mention an article. 10:55:35 the introductory GC text called "Garbage COllection" 10:55:39 I mentioned a rather thick book. 10:55:45 Borrow it from a library. 10:55:50 I shall do so 10:56:13 vio: (you can find compose in http://darcs.informatimago.com/public/lisp/common-lisp/utility.lisp and ensure-list in http://darcs.informatimago.com/public/lisp/common-lisp/list.lisp) 10:56:35 thanks pjb 10:56:42 btw.. thinking about vio's problem for a minute - *another* example of a function people write all the time -- maprec - apply some function to all nodes of a tree 10:57:41 and again - functor-map 10:57:51 *AllNight^* wonders how many 'useful' variants on map there are! 10:58:02 AllNight^: you can find maptree in the above mentionned list.lisp 10:59:04 thanks pjb :) 10:59:11 -!- Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has quit [No route 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[n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 11:11:21 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:11:21 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 11:17:12 ayrnieu_ [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:48 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:20:56 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A623.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:22:31 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:58 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 11:24:15 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:25:21 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 11:26:25 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:52 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 11:27:55 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:07 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:32:27 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:38 -!- slash__ is now known as slash_ 11:33:54 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 11:36:02 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 11:36:43 stinkingly [n=wors@74-61-5-200.sea.clearwire-dns.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:51 (defun add (&rest numbers) (+ numbers)) 11:36:54 why doesn't this work? 11:37:04 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:31 <_death> because `+' takes numbers, not lists 11:37:47 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:51 <_death> you want (reduce #'+ numbers), or (apply #'+ numbers) 11:38:09 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 11:38:15 preferably the former 11:38:23 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:31 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 11:38:36 <_death> cmm: not really 11:38:56 <_death> cmm: note where he gets that list from.. 11:39:19 oh, good point :) 11:39:36 why is former prefered? both work 11:39:48 the former scales better 11:40:18 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 11:40:22 and it is likely to be optimized better 11:40:39 the former is not subject to any limit on the number of function arguments 11:41:16 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:41:18 hmm, to what limit is apply subject to? 11:41:29 <_death> clhs call-arguments-limit 11:41:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_call_a.htm 11:42:29 i don't get it, I'm passing arguments to add in both cases, regardless of the body of add 11:42:57 <_death> reduce passes a maximum of two arguments.. 11:43:08 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:34 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:43:36 _death, but I already passed more than two to add 11:43:44 maybe more than 50 11:43:44 aundro_ [n=aundro@73.159-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 11:43:54 <_death> stinkingly: that was my point earlier 11:44:16 okay, so they are the same here 11:44:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 11:44:49 <_death> tcr claims that the reduce solution is likely to be optimized better 11:45:40 stinkingly: They're only the same because your NUMBERS comes from &REST being constrained by the call-arguments-limit itself 11:46:00 yes i understand 11:46:12 stinkingly: If you wanted to write a (defun sum (list-of-number) ...), you should use REDUCE, or LOOP. 11:46:16 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:46:46 is apply ever prefered over reduce? 11:47:36 <_death> yes, when reduce doesn't apply :) 11:47:42 they do different things 11:49:30 <_death> (defun call-me (a b c) (+ a b c)) 11:50:01 <_death> (apply #'call-me '(1 2 3)) will work, whereas reduce won't 11:50:02 ejs [n=eugen@17-228-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:10 -!- ejs [n=eugen@17-228-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:51:29 i see. so apply #'+ numbers would call + once with all numbers, while reduce would call it for two elements at a time? 11:52:02 <_death> almost 11:52:35 <_death> if the list is empty, reduce will call it with no arguments; if the list contains one element, reduce won't call it at all 11:53:07 <_death> you may want to read the CLHS entries for REDUCE and APPLY 11:53:09 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:26 doesn't that make apply more efficient with more elements? 11:53:42 in his example 11:54:28 <_death> such questions are best left to experiment 11:54:36 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 11:55:00 What is the difference between a SOURCE-TRANSFORM and a COMPILER-MACRO in SBCL? 11:55:11 -!- aundro__ [n=aundro@223.176-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:56:13 _death is this what you meant? http://clhs.lisp.se 11:56:32 <_death> yeah 11:58:40 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:58:54 -!- jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit ["zzz"] 12:07:56 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087DB19.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:50 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 12:12:41 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:08 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 12:14:30 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-122-239.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 12:17:29 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:30 elurin` [n=user@88.254.105.194] has joined #lisp 12:18:13 -!- elurin [n=user@88.254.105.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:18:22 on sbcl, variant with apply should be faster 12:18:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 12:19:03 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:21:43 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:10 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 12:26:34 -!- stinkingly [n=wors@74-61-5-200.sea.clearwire-dns.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:38 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:26:46 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb547a.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:26:54 stinkingly [n=wors@74-61-5-200.sea.clearwire-dns.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:44 _death: pong 12:27:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:06 <_death> fe[nl]ix: hey.. I was wondering why `iolib.sockets:resolver-error' is not a subclass (subcondition?) of `error' 12:29:12 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 12:32:56 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:35:52 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:37:12 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:42:55 _death: I must have forgotten to make it a subtype of cl:error 12:43:07 it's fixed now 12:44:22 rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:44:57 <_death> ok, I didn't know if `error' is the right one, or `iolib-error' 12:47:31 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-96-82.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 12:49:15 -!- H4ns [n=hans@dslb-088-071-068-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:49:21 _death: ok. one of these days I'll have to fix the error hierarchy too :) 12:49:40 <_death> ;) 12:50:02 vio annotated #75049 with "small correction for pjb" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75049#2 12:50:28 pjb, i've added an "apply #'+" on the last line to make it work 12:50:40 it was adding lists otherwise 12:51:01 any idea how to rewrite that without 2 + ? 12:51:04 <_death> vio: your apply/mapcar can be better written as reduce with :key 12:51:38 good point _death, thanks 12:52:26 and (lambda (L) ...), where L is a special veriable, is a bad style 12:52:43 <_death> why would L be a special variable? 12:53:37 stassats, special being uppercase ? 12:54:32 _death: judjing from previous paste 12:54:33 <_death> oh, I guess you're referring to the setq in the previous post 12:54:53 -!- elurin` is now known as elurin 12:54:57 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:54:59 vio: no 12:55:06 -!- vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:55:36 special as in global ? previously declared ? 12:55:58 <_death> I think the setq is bad style (undefined consequences), and the naming is also bad 12:56:50 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-34-250.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:57:02 vio: dynamic variable, as opposed to lexical variables 12:57:08 setq itself or '(1 2 3) list definition ? 12:57:36 you're loosing me guys ... it looks like i'm doing several mistakes at once ;) 12:57:43 vio: indeed, I meant: (reduce (function +) (mapcar #'count-even-length-lists-deep tree)) 12:57:59 vio: in this case you definitely want to use reduce instead of apply. 12:58:37 <_death> and :key rather than mapcar.. why cons a new list just to reduce it? 12:59:17 vio annotated #75049 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75049#3 12:59:55 H4ns [n=hans@dslb-088-071-068-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:07 or is it bad style to use #' instead of function too ? :) 13:00:13 _death: Indeed. 13:00:21 vio: no it's a personnal preference. 13:00:40 vio: I like the roundness of parentheses, and dislike the sharpness of sharp. 13:01:09 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 13:01:27 well it's good that it becomes obvious between the parantheses 13:01:30 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-115-173.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:01:39 it would be hard to follow if everything was round ;) 13:01:54 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:02:02 i come from a perl background ... and i got used to using all the ascii set :P 13:02:10 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:02:32 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-072-254.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:38 vio: Check out Haskell. 13:03:28 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:03:30 z0d, i'm about to ... after i take my lisp exam :) 13:04:07 lisp let you use almost all characters for your own purposes 13:04:13 -!- hdfhefgaert43t [i=bite@gateway/tor/x-102d23dfb24289a5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:04:56 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:05:53 hdfhefgaert43t [i=bite@gateway/tor/x-fbad02b6485bd612] has joined #lisp 13:06:07 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-109-234.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:06:08 vio: since you already have count-even-surface function, you can use it for the definition of count-even-length-lists-deep 13:06:18 instead of that count-if 13:06:28 <_death> hmm.. interesting. a few days ago, when one googled for "iolib" the first link to show up was www.iolib.org .. now it's the CL one ;) 13:06:48 excellent ^_^ 13:06:52 i was just doing that stassats ... it took me a while to observe the similarity though :) 13:08:14 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-134-204.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:09:09 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:10:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-122-239.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has left #lisp 13:12:22 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-30-66.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:41 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-34-250.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:37 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 13:20:07 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:16 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 13:21:41 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-115-173.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:22:28 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-19-88.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:24:51 -!- beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-109-234.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:41 Good afternoon. Sorry about the nick mess. It was due to my ISP disconnecting me too many times per time unit. :( 13:28:13 It might be time to change ISP. I am getting pretty tired of this one. 13:29:54 -!- beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-134-204.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:53 -!- xdaadx [i=xda@94.26.67.214] has quit [] 13:35:41 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:44:09 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 13:47:22 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-95-122.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 13:47:53 hi 13:48:01 hello rstandy 13:48:46 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:51 G'morning all. 13:49:08 Good morning nyef. 13:49:14 hi beach, nyef :-) 13:49:43 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:50:15 I'm a common lisp newbie and I'm trying to learn the language through the fantastic Slime mode for Emacs 13:50:29 ignas__ [n=ignas@static-68-239-80-47.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:36 hooray 13:51:28 Yes it's really exciting the dynamic environment common lisp + slime + emacs 13:51:51 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-58-244.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:51:56 "Okay, so you've drunk the cool-aid. Now what?" 13:52:22 but being a newbie is really frustrating 13:52:40 rstandy: SLIME is a great environment, but you probably want to *learn* the language through an appropriate resource. ;-) 13:52:43 then get some mountain dew and hack some stuff, for thou stoppest being one 13:52:51 minion: Tell rstandy about that-dead-sexy-book. 13:52:52 rstandy: please see that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 13:52:56 I'm now totally lost with an error from asdf-install:install when trying to instanew packages 13:53:20 minion: yes thanks, really cool book, I started to read it already ;-) 13:53:20 indeed, yes thanks really cool book you started to read it already 13:53:28 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:53:32 *Aankhen``* giggles. 13:53:36 haha, minion is a bot 13:53:41 minion: Are you a bot? 13:53:42 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 13:53:55 haha, sorry minion 13:54:06 I didn't intend to offend you :-) 13:54:24 Anyway, it would be a good idea to work your way through the book first before trying anything else. 13:54:33 syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:40 anyway, I would really like a little help to get asdf-install working 13:54:53 <_death> rstandy: what error does it give you 13:54:54 What seems to the problem? 13:55:25 *nyef* points out that the first problem is attempting to use asdf-install. 13:55:31 (death -- Roy Batty, Blade Runner) 13:55:32 :-) 13:55:40 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D76F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:42 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 13:55:47 I have an exception when trying to install a package through asdf 13:56:02 I should learn to use that lisp-paste thing 13:56:07 It's easy. 13:56:09 minion: paste 13:56:10 paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 13:56:23 oh thanks Aankhen`` 13:56:33 minion: thanks! 13:56:33 no problem 13:57:33 -!- segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1CF24.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:44 rstandy pasted "asdf-install exception" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75059 13:58:10 wow, works like a charm :-) 13:58:23 How did you call asdf-install? 13:58:25 minion: yoy are a good guy 13:58:26 what's up? 13:58:34 bordeaux, like wine 13:58:35 minion: I really like you 13:58:36 well, i don't think i really like you though 13:58:36 Ah, I see it there. 13:58:54 Ye, like stassats said, you've misspelled it. 13:58:55 minion: :-* 13:58:56 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``-*''. 13:58:58 not boUrdeaux 13:59:16 How can anyone misspell Bordeaux that way! Shocking! 13:59:37 stassats: oh yes that's was a typo, but it didn't work with correct name either 14:00:20 I'm so newbie I can't debug it myself :-/ 14:00:29 <_death> but did it give the same error? 14:00:31 -!- hdfhefgaert43t [i=bite@gateway/tor/x-fbad02b6485bd612] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:00:33 what is does it say now? 14:00:36 anyways.... why does string-equal signal? according to the hyperspec it mustn't 14:00:37 yes, exactly 14:00:59 the best way to solve the problem is to stop using asdf-install 14:01:05 So I was thinking about it last night, and I realized that the heuristic used to find the frame and code pointers for the previous frame in the debugger (x86-call-context) is stupid and broken. 14:01:25 nyef: I was just thinking that. 14:01:35 Okay, maybe not that exactly. 14:01:35 <_death> rstandy: did you install asdf-install, or used the one that came with sbcl? and what version of sbcl are you using? 14:01:38 Or at all. 14:01:53 stassats: uhm, but it _seems_ really handy 14:01:59 minion: tell rstandy about clbuild 14:01:59 rstandy: have a look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 14:02:17 Hun: It signals because it was passed bounds (:start1, :end1, :start2 or :end2). 14:02:33 _death: I'm using sbcl 1.0.25, with asdf-install from sbcl 14:02:50 stassats: uhm, I'll take a look at clbuild 14:02:53 thanks for the pointer 14:03:08 was it? i only see this call: (STRING-EQUAL "" "http://"). Do i interpret that wrong? 14:03:42 Anyway, the heuristic is broken because it runs independent of the knowledge of the program counter in the callee frame. 14:04:04 Hun: Yes, I can't understand why the url is truncated to "http://" 14:04:17 Hun: The frames don't necessarily include all the arguments. 6: (ASDF-INSTALL:INSTALL)[:EXTERNAL] for (asdf-install:install 'bourdeaux-threads), for example. 14:04:20 ... That's not the URL that was truncated. 14:04:21 (sorry for my english) 14:04:27 The visual representations of the frames, rather. 14:04:30 <_death> rstandy: that's weird.. what happens if you type this: (asdf-install::url-connection "http://www.cliki.net/BOURDEAUX-THREADS?download") 14:04:34 Aankhen``: ah, ok. 14:04:56 That's thrown me off a number of times too. 14:04:57 _death: bordeaux! 14:05:05 <_death> stassats: I copied it from the post 14:05:11 <_death> stassats: it doesn't matter 14:05:18 I wonder what makes it print one argument but not another. 14:05:21 _death: same error, I can paste it if you wnt 14:05:25 *want 14:05:26 stassats: They're debugging the wierd failure mode for a bogus system name. 14:05:46 nyef: Isn't BORDEAUX-THREADS a valid system name? 14:05:48 nyef: well, it fails with the right name too, as i understand 14:05:52 Really? 14:06:05 stassats: yes I tried with "bordeaux-threads" ;-) 14:06:17 CL-USER> (asdf-install::url-connection "http://www.cliki.net/BORDEAUX-THREADS?download") 14:06:30 let me try that too 14:06:39 <_death> rstandy: that's weird.. I guess you're using the binary sbcl package? 14:07:31 Well, cliki is behaving correctly, so it's not on that end. 14:07:34 Server responded 404 for GET http://www.cliki.net/BORDEAUX-TRHEADS?download 14:07:38 it says for me 14:07:42 _death: I first tryed with sbcl shipped with debian lenny, then I downloaded the latest sbcl stable sources and build them with sbcl shipped with debian 14:07:46 "TRH"? 14:08:01 <_death> stassats: yes, that's fine.. but one of the first things url-connection does is call url-host with that url 14:08:01 stassats: well I can try another asdf package 14:08:15 it doesn't change much 14:08:16 <_death> stassats: from the backtrace you see that url-host gets called with the empty string 14:09:42 oh sorry I must go now 14:09:56 but thank you very much for your kindness and help 14:10:09 will take a deeper look at the problem and at clbuild 14:10:18 many thanks 14:10:43 _death: well, if we have the same sbcl, i get a different error 14:11:20 <_death> stassats: I mean from the backtrace rstandy posted 14:12:26 hence i guess, that maybe rstandy has asdf-install not from sbcl 14:12:44 like, shadowed by debian installation 14:14:18 rstandy pasted "asdf-install detailed backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75061 14:14:51 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:09 rstandy: you don't use debian? 14:16:29 with cl-asdf installed 14:18:13 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-96-82.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:19:09 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-96-82.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 14:20:06 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:56 unlikely, asdf-install from that package looks rather strange 14:23:24 gcopenhaver [n=greg@c-71-206-116-36.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:39 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 14:26:53 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:00 -!- ignas__ [n=ignas@static-68-239-80-47.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:28 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 14:38:54 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-164.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:41:35 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-192-214.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:22 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.101.136] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:48:37 -!- vy [n=user@88.227.54.135] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:58 re 14:55:18 lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:55:33 -!- vio [n=vio@79.116.116.83] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:58:03 -!- H4ns [n=hans@dslb-088-071-068-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:59:39 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:00:07 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:01:59 masm [n=user@89.155.110.17] has joined #lisp 15:02:36 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:02:54 -!- AllNight^ [n=EnglishG@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:12:52 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:19:20 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 15:19:29 -!- sqvirt [n=sqvirt@c-71-227-248-12.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:20:21 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:20:27 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb547a.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:20:31 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:18 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:23:57 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb547a.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:08 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:57 syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:46 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:27:33 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@133.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 15:28:24 Question regarding cl-gd. Does anyone here know a way to get the length of resized image (generated by copy-image) without saving it to a file? 15:28:52 kroger [n=user@nmd.sbx08109.menloca.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:05 -!- kroger [n=user@nmd.sbx08109.menloca.wayport.net] has left #lisp 15:31:40 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 15:33:18 youmean the size in bytes? 15:34:46 rfgpfeiffer_ [n=rfgpfeif@e178254081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:34:52 manuel_: yes, exactly. 15:35:06 hmm sorry dunno 15:36:12 feagondpt [n=feagond@dyn1204-170.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:36:31 manuel_: thanks though :) 15:37:05 i would fake it with a tempfile, but i'm not a clean programmer :) 15:37:36 -!- rfgpfeiffer [n=rfgpfeif@e178203078.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:38:33 manuel_: It should be much faster to do it on memory without disk access. So I am looking for the way, but seems like cl-gd doesn't provide the way. (at least cl-gd doesn't export the way.) 15:38:56 you can write to a stream 15:40:03 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:40:26 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:40:41 manuel_: To get the size? How? Is there a function like (make-string-output-stream) for a binary stream? 15:40:49 s/size/length/ 15:40:53 dunno to be honest :) 15:41:00 you could build a stream class that just counts byte and discards the rest 15:41:37 Or you could use that binary stream thing from flexi-streams. 15:42:30 *nyef* is having trouble coming up with a scenario in which you would want to know the size-on-disk of an image but not want the actual encoded image. 15:46:04 sachael [n=uibxn@nat-wh.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 15:47:36 is this channel only about common lisp, or lisp as a whole? 15:47:45 sachael: common lisp 15:47:48 Common Lisp, usually. 15:48:00 There has been the rare exception. 15:48:17 For emacs lisp, try #emacs; for scheme try #scheme. 15:48:25 where is #loop? 15:48:33 for all the others, try here. 15:48:54 Except newLISP. For newLISP, try using a real lisp instead. 15:49:31 I still want #loop! 15:49:40 create it 15:49:43 ignas__ [n=ignas@pool-173-79-108-242.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:49 but I'd have no-one to ask. :( 15:50:20 you could ask specbot, he should know about loop 15:50:32 specbot, can you tell me about loop? 15:50:33 He? Specbot is male? 15:50:34 so newLISP isn't an urban myth, huh? :) 15:51:02 beach, sure felt so last time. ;) 15:51:05 beach: It was the gender-neutral "he". :-P 15:51:36 *beach* thinks we better not go there. 15:51:46 it's sort of a shame there's no gender neutral means to anthropomorphize a bot. 15:52:01 Fade: Spivak pronouns, maybe? 15:52:06 in english at least. 15:52:18 nyef: aye, maybe. 15:52:36 I like the Icelandic "hen". The English variety is for other purposes. 15:52:48 tic: Egg-laying? 15:52:49 well, minion is female, and specbot is male 15:53:00 nyef, uhm....yes. 15:53:02 ... minion is female? 15:53:10 In French, it is somewhat easier, because it's the gender of the *word* that counts, not the gender of the object referred to. 15:53:22 nyef: yeah, why not? 15:53:24 Who are you calling an object! 15:53:36 tic: just to see your reaction. 15:53:39 the latinate tendency to sex objects baffles english speakers. :) 15:53:47 "I, Object" 15:53:54 (I object?) 15:54:16 tic: Is that a superclass of "I, Robot"? 15:54:20 objection overruled 15:56:38 Fade: it is common in non-latin languages as well, like German. 15:56:39 nyef, yes! but what am I? 15:57:10 *tic* continues hacking on Linnea. 15:57:21 *beach* is reminded of the words to a tune by King Crimson 15:58:03 in russian 'robot' is masculine, that's why i called specbot "he" 15:58:05 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.141.13] has quit [Success] 15:58:28 stassats: That is a very good reason, actually. 15:58:29 beach: *nod* 15:59:05 is robot masculine in its original czech? 15:59:45 *beach* looks around for the czech dictionary 15:59:55 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/robot#Czech seems so 16:00:57 Ah, now I get it. Couldn't find the similarity between "pracownik" (albeit Polish) and "robot". but it's from "robota" 16:05:25 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 16:06:13 beach: Which tune, if I might ask? 16:11:01 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:23 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:09 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:33 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:15:18 schme [n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:16:27 -!- sachael [n=uibxn@nat-wh.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has left #lisp 16:16:32 -!- danlei`` [n=user@pD9E2D398.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:52 g'day 16:16:57 Hello schme, 16:17:18 Have I missed anything interesting the last couple of days? 16:17:34 Microsoft announced its decision to adopt Common Lisp for all future development. 16:18:22 Ah yes. 2009 is the year of lisp on the desktop, and also Franz and LW went open source, and mcclim is bug free and ported to all platforms, and we have a nice asdf replacement that everyone is using. 16:18:31 and also microsoft there. 16:18:33 yay! 16:18:47 Haha. 16:19:15 it's not 1st april yet 16:19:25 Well, one out of three ain't too bad, if Mudballs or XCVB manage to acquire a large userbase. :-P 16:19:39 Hmm.. XCVB.. I'll google that up. 16:19:55 minion: xcvb? 16:19:56 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``xcvb''. 16:20:56 My gosh! 16:21:10 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 16:21:15 don't tell fare. 16:21:18 xcvb claims to make parallel compilation possible. 16:21:30 This makes me happy as a little girl. 16:23:48 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-246-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 16:26:31 -!- feagondpt [n=feagond@dyn1204-170.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:48 So how is MCCLIM on Windows? 16:30:01 What lib do people use to encode & decode HTML entities 'round here? 16:30:05 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 16:30:12 lisp 16:30:23 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-196-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:30:40 + hunchentoot 16:31:49 Hunchentoot has nothing to decode HTML entities. 16:32:26 And it has only basic support for encoding them. 16:32:26 -!- elurin [n=user@88.254.105.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:55 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-96-82.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:56 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-58-244.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:52 tic: just like on other platforms with X server 16:36:08 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-96-82.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:38 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-96-82.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:56 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-96-82.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 16:38:19 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:41:45 Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has joined #lisp 16:45:50 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:49:13 -!- Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:49:50 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-159-249.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:52:45 disumu [n=disumu@p57A269A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:17 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 16:55:53 postamar [n=postamar@206-248-186-48.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:11 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp474.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 16:56:15 -!- jlilly [n=nnnnnnnn@mail.justinlilly.com] has quit ["Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5"] 16:56:23 japhy [n=user@vide-sat.pl] has joined #lisp 16:56:34 -!- japhy [n=user@vide-sat.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:29 sohail [n=Sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:38 stassats, was afraid of that. 17:02:19 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:16 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp474.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:06:23 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-58-244.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:02 justinhj [n=user@S0106001346fa331f.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:50 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:10:52 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 17:15:00 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:15:19 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:20:57 -!- ayrnieu_ is now known as ayrnieu 17:21:46 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:12 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:38 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:23:25 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [] 17:24:07 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:43 outthrusts [n=wors@74-61-5-200.sea.clearwire-dns.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:43 malu__ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb593f.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 17:29:19 thecat [n=thecat@chello212017079198.13.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:29:43 Hello, Is there any weblocks hacker here ? 17:29:45 -!- stinkingly [n=wors@74-61-5-200.sea.clearwire-dns.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:53 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 17:31:07 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:32:47 matley [n=matley@213-156-55-133.fastres.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:48 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:35:42 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:36:04 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 17:37:17 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:30 chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.173.52.154] has joined #lisp 17:38:31 testingerc [n=user@fire-out.ru.is] has joined #lisp 17:39:32 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:39:32 testingerc: it seems to work 17:40:31 Heh. 17:41:48 So, there's a KLUDGE comment at the bottom of code/debug-info.lisp... And it's more a commentary on the misinterpretability of the immediately preceeding comment than what its text suggests. 17:42:33 -!- testingerc [n=user@fire-out.ru.is] has left #lisp 17:43:23 nowadays it seems that KLUDGE is a typical common lisp word used instead of FIXME or XXX 17:43:50 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:43:59 Well, FIXME sortof implies that it -can- be fixed. 17:44:16 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-140-250.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:44:21 I'm not sure what XXX implies. 17:44:42 But KLUDGE almost says "this is here to stay". 17:44:46 nyef, ah ok, I thought it was a citation of the CLtL index 17:44:50 Were mexps included in Common Lisp at some point? I can recall them being in LispMLisp. 17:45:13 dkcl: Not in any published version that I'm aware of. 17:45:22 not in Common Lisp, but there's a library for CL that actually has them. 17:45:36 sykopomp: Is there someone actually *using* them? 17:45:44 dkcl: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/m-expression.lisp 17:45:49 I don't think so. 17:45:50 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb547a.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:55 sykopomp: Thanks. 17:46:12 The whole point of the code I just linked you was to show people how useless they really are. 17:46:33 I can't believe it was Pascal who wrote that, unless he did it to show how useless they are too. 17:47:01 read the header. 17:47:31 Sorry, read too quickly. It's been a long day. 17:47:36 np :) 17:48:21 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:48:26 I need a mop. Bah. 17:49:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:55 blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:50:11 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host108-177-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 17:51:41 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:46 pitui [n=pitui@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:06 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:56:06 nivya [n=nivya@c-24-1-184-2.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:28 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:00:43 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:06 g32k1 [n=g32k1@pptp-212-201-72-250.pptp.stw-bonn.de] has joined #lisp 18:03:01 re 18:03:36 stassats: sorry for the late response I was not right at the pc 18:03:53 stassats: I use sbcl's `asdf' and `asdf-install' packages 18:04:35 strangely enough, i created a new user on my system and used asdf-install to install a package, and it works just fine ;-/ 18:05:09 somthing in my environment confuse asdf-install 18:07:12 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.173.52.154] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:08:58 paddy_mullen [n=patrickm@c-68-39-125-215.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:27 -!- paddy_mullen [n=patrickm@c-68-39-125-215.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:09:30 Cronos [n=a@5ad5b228.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 18:11:21 -!- outthrusts [n=wors@74-61-5-200.sea.clearwire-dns.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:14:26 ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 18:16:54 mjf [n=mjf@r6y193.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 18:16:56 -!- matley [n=matley@213-156-55-133.fastres.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:17:20 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y193.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 18:17:32 mjf [n=mjf@r6y193.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 18:21:05 rstandy: is there anything in your ~/.sbclrc ? 18:22:32 stassats: Yes. But I already tried asdf-install:install with an empty .sbclrc and it doesn't work anyway 18:23:15 the offending lines in .sbclrc could have been theese: 18:23:23 (require :asdf) 18:23:24 (pushnew "/home/andy/lib/common-lisp/" asdf:*central-registry* :test #'equal) 18:23:24 18:23:30 end isn't $http_proxy environment variable set? 18:23:46 vy [n=user@88.227.54.135] has joined #lisp 18:24:15 hmm, i bet it is 18:24:17 (posix-getenv "http_proxy") => "" 18:24:48 -!- masm [n=user@89.155.110.17] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:24:54 rstandy: it's set to the empty string, which is different from not setting it at all. 18:25:01 sigh, maybe this is like a rite to initiate newbies to CL :-) 18:25:11 yeah8989 [n=angie@189.151.95.140] has joined #lisp 18:25:17 no, that would be the paddle. 18:25:23 pkhuong: oh, damn... 18:25:45 let me try setting asdf-install:*proxy* to NIL 18:26:38 ugh! 18:26:49 that was the problem! 18:27:53 *rstandy* hides for 18:28:04 *rstandy* hides for shame 18:28:21 thank you very much guys 18:28:27 pkhuong: On the subect of x86 backtrace heuristics, I think the main problem is that the program counter value isn't taken into consideration in chosing which style of frame to prefer. 18:29:56 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-stm/ http://dirkgerrits.com/ - Google Summer of Code, slayer of Lisp projects! 18:30:02 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y193.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 18:31:32 nyef: yay, more ad-hocery in the heuristic. 18:31:56 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-220-199.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:13 pkhuong: No, no... This one actually makes sense. We can -always- pull the correct frame pointer if we're in a lisp function frame. 18:32:40 (The debug info contains the fp location, and it's wired anyway.) 18:33:02 even in the middle of unwinding? 18:33:32 That's one of the few cases I'm not sure about. 18:33:39 Although I suspect so. 18:36:24 How would it -not- know how to backtrace in the middle of unwinding? 18:36:39 That should work right even on the windows port. 18:36:40 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:36:51 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:58 (With its funky unwind implementation.) 18:37:54 (defun foo () (throw 'baz nil)) (defun bar () (catch 'baz (unwind-protect (foo) (backtrace)))) (bar) shows a working backtrace in 1.0.11 x86-64, at least... 18:38:16 nyef: I was more thinking of interrupting the process in the assembly routine. 18:38:33 Ah. Now -that- is one of the few cases that are trickier. 18:38:40 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:39:33 I suppose that's easy enough to make happen, though, as an impure test... Or maybe even as a pure test, if it cleans itself up properly. 18:40:24 -!- blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:40:25 I'd actually be more concerned about stuff in x86-assem.S. 18:42:19 Anyway, -anything- we do in terms of backtrace is subject to failure if it involves foreign code frames. 18:49:22 blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:50:01 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.91.38] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:10 -!- yeah8989 [n=angie@189.151.95.140] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:00:34 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@pD9E44A05.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:54 -!- thecat [n=thecat@chello212017079198.13.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Quitte"] 19:03:33 schmx [n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:03:50 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:03:54 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 19:04:30 -!- Cronos [n=a@5ad5b228.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 19:08:19 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:12:09 elurin [n=user@88.254.105.194] has joined #lisp 19:14:12 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:15:15 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@pD9E44A05.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:18:04 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 19:18:11 justinhj` [n=user@S0106001346fa331f.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:12 -!- schmx is now known as schme 19:24:51 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 19:25:03 -!- nivya [n=nivya@c-24-1-184-2.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:25:11 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 19:25:51 -!- justinhj` [n=user@S0106001346fa331f.vf.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 19:30:27 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:27 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:32:40 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:34:03 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A269A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:35:33 -!- justinhj [n=user@S0106001346fa331f.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:12 yeah8989 [n=angie@189.151.95.140] has joined #lisp 19:39:21 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:43:06 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:44:29 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:23 `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 19:45:41 -!- `m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 19:46:33 -!- rfgpfeiffer_ [n=rfgpfeif@e178254081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 19:47:48 X-Scale [i=email@89-180-76-121.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 19:49:21 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-150-255.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:50:48 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:51:31 -!- yeah8989 [n=angie@189.151.95.140] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:54:15 Lou__ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 19:55:02 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:55:14 lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:55:45 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:31 asdf load-op on this sbcl gives "failed to find the TRUENAME of /usr/local/lib/sbcl/site-systems/packages.lisp:" why ? (just installed 1.0.25). It works on an other machine. 19:57:04 Does the file exist? 19:57:27 it should say (I guess) /usr/local/lib/sbcl/site-system//packages.lisp .. no that file doesnt exist on either good or bad machine. 19:57:32 Oh. 19:57:45 Are the files in site-systems/ symlinks? 19:59:03 nyef: yes and no.. cl-ppcre.asd and cl-ppcre-unicode is, but the others are normal files (did an scp -r from the good machine). 19:59:04 (I recognize this failure mode: Somehow ASDF thinks that site-systems/ is the actual pathname for the .asd you loaded.) 19:59:13 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.240.13] has joined #lisp 19:59:14 There you go, then. 19:59:24 They're supposed to be symlinks to the "correct" file. 19:59:28 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:59:58 Typically, however, the actual correct location is in site//, so it should be an easy enough mess to clean up. 20:00:26 nyef: yes, I either try symlinks or just wipe it clean and start over. 20:00:53 Fixing the symlinks "should" do it unless you run into timestamp issues. 20:00:53 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-108.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:00:57 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:22 nyef: should rm -rf on site and site-systems and then mkdir with old perm suffice as clean start ? 20:01:32 In which case you may need to kill out the fasls and load-op the ssytems as a suitable user 20:02:02 Sure, but you can probably rescue the situation without being quite so drastic. 20:03:41 nyef: ok I'll try that first (hacking a perl script as we speak :) 20:03:53 ... perl script? 20:04:21 for file in ../site/*/*.asd; do ln -s $file .; done 20:05:04 won't "ln -s ../site/*/*.asd ." work? 20:05:19 That I do not know. 20:05:20 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-220-199.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:58 Guess it will. 20:06:18 Is there any shortcut to check the equality of some portions (e.g. start1, end1, start2, end2) of two sequences? 20:06:22 stassats: look like it: ieee-floats.asd -> ../site/ieee-floats/ieee-floats.asd 20:06:51 lhz: looks ok to me 20:07:05 vy: shortcut as opposed to...? 20:07:08 (and so on) .. but asdf-install on cl-ppcre gave me an absolute symlink to cl-ppcre, maybe that doesnt matter ? 20:07:19 nyef: Opposed to rolling my own function. 20:07:33 lhz: Doesn't matter. All that matters is that it's a symlink and it ends up at the right place. 20:07:35 lhz: it shouldn't really matter 20:07:44 clhs mismatch 20:07:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mismat.htm 20:07:55 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:08:21 Yeah, mismatch looks like it. 20:08:38 Oops! Yep, MISMATCH it was. 20:08:44 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:47 Wierd name, given how it's used, but... 20:09:03 I was looking for ...MATCH... 20:09:30 yeah8989 [n=angie@189.151.95.140] has joined #lisp 20:09:56 does anyone know how i could handle SIGINT in ecl? 20:10:21 i tried HANDLER-BIND on ext:interactive interrupt, but that works only when my own code is running 20:10:26 Hun: I'd check the docs, then the sources, then google, then just bind sigaction(). 20:10:39 if the system is waiting in READ-LINE, everything crashes. hard 20:10:59 Hun: But I'm not an ecl user, so take that advice with a grain of salt. 20:11:27 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-53.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:13:30 nyef, stassats: thanks, it works great! 20:13:58 lhz: No problem. Happy hacking! 20:15:59 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:28 disumu [n=disumu@p57A269A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:43 nyef: thanks, next endeavour would be to get asdf-binary-locations and clsql to play together :) 20:16:45 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:17:59 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-159-249.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:19:53 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:07 frobish [n=chatzill@ip70-185-108-152.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:11 Sasuke! *reinruf* 20:21:21 Sorry... wrong window... 20:21:28 I need to get used to the Irssi-Split-Windows 20:21:42 man, all kinds of legends there... 20:21:57 The Lisp God meets the best ninja... 20:22:45 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:19 The-Kenny: Better get used to emacs+erc. 20:23:32 -!- yeah8989 [n=angie@189.151.95.140] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:23:33 vy: No, thanks. 20:23:41 vy: bah. rcirc is better :) 20:23:53 Though, since I have you here- which is better? php or cells? 20:24:43 blbrown_ [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:56 -!- blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:25:01 -!- blbrown_ [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:25:22 -!- vy [n=user@88.227.54.135] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:25 are you sure The-Kenny is the right Kenny? seems to be too quiet for KT 20:26:43 true 20:26:43 possibly so ;) 20:27:04 maybe TK is just a little endianned today 20:27:12 On the other hand, anyone called "The Kenny" uis either Tilton or an imposter. 20:27:36 stassats: I'm not the Kenny from comp.lang.lisp if you refer to that. 20:27:54 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 20:27:57 yeah, i see 20:28:04 frobish: impostor 20:28:05 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:28:48 "The-Other-Kenny", maybe? 20:28:59 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:03 I have this nick for some years now, much longer than I follow comp.lang.lisp 20:29:20 nivya [n=nivya@c-24-1-184-2.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:26 Yes, I agree, sp 20:29:49 rly 20:29:50 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:07 So there are two kenny's? 20:30:17 then the the shouln't be there 20:30:58 Hmm- dunno about hat.. I think that "the kenny from c.l.l" is appropriate. 20:31:39 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:31:39 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:32:36 yeah8989 [n=angie@189.151.95.140] has joined #lisp 20:32:44 the tiltonator 20:32:45 hefner, memo from sykopomp: They're like classes when you need them to be. http://github.com/sykopomp/sheeple/blob/1e9f5360d6b176406eb68ebcd3cd20d19aba6ca4/demo/classes.lisp 20:32:45 So "The-Kenny"... 20:33:10 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 20:33:29 are you now or have you ever been a proponent of data-flow as a first-class language construct? 20:33:36 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host147.190-227-32.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:34:09 and.. have you ever been to China? 20:34:27 I hear they have a guru there who absolves you of all your programming sins. 20:34:41 hefner: as an added amusing point... "Prototype Object Oriented Programming" => "POOP" 20:35:37 Hmm.. in ha case I am kind of down with poop 20:35:38 let's see the astronaut crowt co-opt that term! 20:35:53 (crowd?) 20:36:11 hehe 20:37:22 ... "Scatological Humour Integration Technology"? 20:37:40 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:41 Hmm- remember that astronaut who drove cross-country wearing diapers? 20:37:44 I'm sure the FP people would be proud. 20:38:08 "Those OOP nerds and their shenanigans. Hah" 20:38:14 s/Integration/Implementation/... 20:38:32 nyef: the semantics of that word change fascinate me. 20:38:38 hmm- I think it would be "those POOP geeks" 20:39:14 I'm gonna stop shitting up the channel and go back to coding :) 20:39:15 I mean, I wou.ld wear a shirt that procalimaed me an OOP geek (though it would be inaccurate) 20:39:36 you down with OOP? 20:39:39 But I probably wouldn't wear one that made me a "Poop geek" 20:39:57 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:40:26 Hmm- OOP is OK if you encapsulate it properly ;) 20:40:56 CLOS is pure honey. 20:41:38 CLOS and what is generally meant by OOP are largely orthagonal 20:44:55 damn.. so anyway, php vs copy-readtable- which is better? 20:45:01 ? 20:45:23 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:45:47 frobish: For manipulating readtables? I'd go with ph^H^H copy-readtable! 20:46:08 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 20:46:17 But it's a rather unfair comparison. 20:46:41 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:46:41 -!- malu__ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb593f.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:46:45 Yeah- you know, I tried copy-readtable in PHP, and nothing happened. Turns out it's a no-op in PHP ;) 20:47:19 Really? Unfair? 20:47:33 I mean- I like Lisp 20:47:50 *stassats* sigh 20:48:14 frobish: You're adversely affecting the signal-to-noise ratio in here, you know. 20:48:19 -!- bhz- [n=limn@user-69-1-52-147.knology.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:49 Tordek [n=tordek@host147.190-227-32.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:50:25 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:34 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-18.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:50:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-53.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:51:04 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 20:51:06 Yeah- I am actually about to leave ;)- I just wanted to test this new usenet client. Which sucks, btw. But please... that ratio isn't my problem , and if it were at all reasonable I wouldn't be able to bump it. Bye ;). 20:51:32 -!- frobish [n=chatzill@ip70-185-108-152.ga.at.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]"] 20:51:56 *flounce* 20:52:06 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:52:52 interesting. 20:53:29 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:34 *sigh* 20:53:56 fusss: is that a special variable? 20:54:46 ayrnieu: Thanks you just taught me a nice new word! (Yesterday I learned malapropism.) 20:56:15 *stassats* doesn't remember words just once seen, though, sometimes baader and meinhoff phenomen helps 20:56:30 sledge: yep, as "variable" as that yahoo keyword minimum bid amount that i could have sworn was a small, fractional constant last night :-S 20:58:28 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 21:00:24 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-192-214.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:54 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-192-214.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:16 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:10 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 21:09:27 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.156.133] has quit ["Computer Lie #1: You'll never use all that disk space"] 21:12:53 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 21:15:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:15 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:24:34 ljosa [n=ljosa@c-76-119-125-184.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:08 thecat [n=thecat@chello212017079198.13.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:26:27 WEBLOCKS::*PAGE-DEPENDENCIES* is unbound -> Did someone know what it means ? 21:28:13 thecat: Only at the lowest level, which almost certainly won't help you. 21:30:44 could be an asdf related loading problem, or some version mismatch 21:30:58 did you just update the weblocks sources? 21:31:26 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 21:32:29 tcr: I dont' think so ... just trying the basics of weblocks : rendering a string work, trying my hello-world view give me this message ... 21:33:00 tcr: I have src from this afternoon .. 21:33:11 thecat: you need to sit down with rlpowel's "big ass text on weblocks" 21:33:35 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:37 http://teddyb.org/rlp/tiki-index.php?page=Learning+About+Weblocks 21:34:20 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.196.22] has joined #lisp 21:35:06 weblocks is the sort of thing people should write themselves later. you can do almost everything with just hunchentoot, imo. 21:35:07 fuss: yes ... I already have this page open and I have read part of. 21:36:27 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 21:37:05 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:59 anyone know if there's a way to trick emacs' Lisp-mode into treating a custom defFOO macro as if it were one of the built-in ones? (as far as syntax highlighting and indentation goes) 21:38:23 sykopomp: Doesn't it do that by default? 21:38:34 only for define-* 21:38:38 Or does that depend on slime being connected, or do I just misremember? 21:38:38 not for def* 21:38:40 sykopomp: slime will auto indent "def* and "with-*" 21:38:47 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:39:31 fusss: it doesn't know that one of my macros works just like defmethod, so it screws up the indentation when I give it qualifiers. Plus, I get no syntax highlighting :( 21:39:45 (this is, of course, not a HUGE issue, but it would be nice to have) 21:40:10 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:40:27 With-macro names unlikely to be seen in production code: "with-malice-aforethought", "without-a-care-in-the-world", "with-careful-planning", "with-a-wing-and-a-prayer"... 21:40:31 rfgpfeiffer [n=rfgpfeif@e178254081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:41:14 writing an emacs minor mode for an embedded lisp DSL shouldn't take more than an hour, imo. 21:41:15 I am trying to understand why SBCL gives me a note saying that "the array rank is not known at compile time" for this fragment: http://paste.lisp.org/display/75077 21:41:32 with-god\ 21:41:35 oops 21:42:42 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 21:43:08 with-sheeple (you said production, right?) 21:43:15 :-P 21:43:17 :D 21:43:31 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:32 ljosa: what version of SBCL are you using? 21:43:57 pkhuong: 1.0.20 21:44:11 How... five-months-ago of you. 21:44:28 (Not that that's necessarily a bad thing...) 21:44:30 fusss: actually, here's what I was doing just now: http://github.com/sykopomp/sheeple/blob/de40e9cf84bface32df8c7cfeeba8a24af3136cd/demo/classes.lisp 21:45:00 I get a nice unrolled multiplication on 1.0.24.almost-25. ISTR some work around array types in the last couple months. 21:45:08 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:36 ok, I'll build 1.0.25 and see. 21:47:20 Cowmoo` [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:22 sykopomp: Jenny's phone number is 8675309 21:47:31 hehehe 21:48:46 I'm thinking of rewriting gigamonkey's idv3 parser and see how it works out. I'll probably try that later in the week once I've added a few extra convenience things. 21:48:52 *nyef* remembers an argument about using roman numerals for phone dialling... 21:49:02 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:50:45 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A24A8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:51:58 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:03 it might work in ancient rome, but now we have more than 4000 subscribers 21:52:50 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:54:41 ginkgo [n=user@chello084113198244.17.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:55:04 should i put up my lisp hot-line again? 21:55:36 stassats: I argued that if you break it up into 3 and 4 digit groups, you could encode DCCCLXVII-MMMMMCCCIX. 21:55:38 it is a repl, over the phone! and it could so violate my network's T&Cs! 21:56:53 nyef: i can't even remeber my seven-digit number 21:57:33 Neither can I. So what? 21:57:59 (Having to remember all ten digits these days doesn't help, either.) 21:59:12 elurin` [n=user@88.254.105.194] has joined #lisp 22:00:31 -!- elurin [n=user@88.254.105.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:09 kroger [n=user@nmd.sbx08109.menloca.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:32 -!- kroger [n=user@nmd.sbx08109.menloca.wayport.net] has left #lisp 22:02:37 -!- Cowmoo` is now known as Cowmoo 22:06:05 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.196.22] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:06:17 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-0-181.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 22:07:05 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.13.107] has joined #lisp 22:10:09 noes, paste.lisp down! 22:10:11 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:10:58 -!- elurin` [n=user@88.254.105.194] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:11:42 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:12:33 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:13:05 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:18:24 -!- yeah8989 [n=angie@189.151.95.140] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:18:49 yeah8989 [n=angie@189.151.95.140] has joined #lisp 22:19:34 -!- ignas__ [n=ignas@pool-173-79-108-242.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:20:18 -!- yeah8989 [n=angie@189.151.95.140] has left #lisp 22:20:22 -!- ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:08 ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:23 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:25:08 -!- homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-baf33c5d4d2c73b0] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:36 homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-76bf2f87c164ce3c] has joined #lisp 22:25:43 looks like SBCL actually produces a nice unrolled multiplication, even in 1.0.20. But it still produces that warning. Strange. 22:25:54 I mean note. 22:28:28 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:03 Does macro expansion occur first in an eval function? 22:29:22 schme [n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:30:23 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:30:39 Or is macro expansion something done once on a top-level form, then eval'd? 22:31:54 if a macro form is interpreted then it is macroexpanded just before it is executed 22:31:59 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:23 if it is compiled then it is macroexpanded at compile time and executed at execution time 22:32:50 this is coming from my observations and not from a spec though 22:32:51 clhs 3.1 22:32:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_a.htm 22:33:12 Oh specbot is alive. Nice. 22:33:35 manic12_: the only guarantee is that macroexpansion happens (once) during compilation. It could also be the case if you didn't compile the code. 22:34:16 an interpreter may also cache an expansion 22:35:08 lispms &c all had destructive defmacros which would modify the sexp itself that was passed to it 22:35:26 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:35:32 (such self-modifcation is prohibited for the user by Common Lisp, though.) 22:36:02 in Weblocks, does a View is a Widget ? 22:38:02 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 22:38:38 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c213-100-35-225.swipnet.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:38:48 thecat: Sorry, I don't think anyone understands your question .( 22:41:26 schme: Well ... of course ... so: In Welocks, there is "View" and "Widget" ... it seem's that I can render a "Widget" but my "View" is never displayed ... ok ... you have to know Weblocks to understand what I mean. 22:42:57 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.13.107] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:44:49 thecat: I thought weblocks automated views ? 22:45:32 oh it doesn't. There just are some default ones. Well my bad :) 22:46:17 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-0-181.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:25 It define automatically views ... but I need to ask rendering them somewhere (it's my understanding) 22:47:01 Yes... somewhere you need to put code to maybe render them in a widget. 22:47:12 (I think) :) 22:47:13 schme: there's a nice 'defview wich define a default one for you. 22:47:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-220-199.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:47:53 -!- nivya [n=nivya@c-24-1-184-2.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:47:55 Is there some Weblocks user sometimes here ? (or is there another chan ?) 22:48:55 koffein [n=aik@dtmd-4db25b91.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:14 many have their own web frameworks 22:51:00 thecat: I think maybe you can just drop a RENDER-OBJECT-VIEW or some such in the page generating function. 22:51:13 if it is an object view 22:51:52 schme: it's exactly what I try to do without success :-( 22:52:00 oh humm. 22:52:24 I'm still in 'init-user-session trying to customize the first page ! 22:53:48 Right. From my old weblocks wd it seems I have that doing (setf (composite-widgets comp) (make-main-page)) 22:54:05 alas I do not have weblocks installed anymore 22:54:21 -!- rfgpfeiffer [n=rfgpfeif@e178254081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:55:11 pkhuong: I asked earlier about the difference between compiler macros and source transforms; do you happen to know the difference? 22:56:46 schme: yes exactly what I try to do; and rendering a string work, like in the example, but trying to render a view just do nothing. 22:57:13 thecat: Hmm.. have you looked at the examples? 22:57:50 thecat: I think maybe you need to stick it in a widget afterall. 22:58:13 schme: yes ... when they are simple enougth :-) 22:58:24 thecat: Anyway I'd love to help out, but I don't really have weblocks around anymore, and I hardly remember jack from it :) and it is so late I will go to bed. Best of luck though. 22:59:00 schme: thanks, I'm going to bed to ! Good night 22:59:33 thecat: if you changed the widget you're trying to render, you have to call (reset-sessions) before it will get served to your browser. 23:00:16 yes ... I know the trick with (reset-session) (part of my test this afternoon !) 23:01:17 paste your code to a pastebot and maybe it will be clearer what you're doing. 23:01:32 memet [n=memet@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:00 tcr: not sure. compiler macros are applied first, but apart from that, the functionality seems identical (modulo interface differences). 23:02:17 hello all. I have a beginner lisp question if anyone cares to shed some light. 23:02:34 just ask 23:02:50 I'm investigating deploying a web app using Lisp and have so far been looking into Portable AllegroServe 23:03:12 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75081 23:03:44 my question is: what is the high level procedure for actually deploying a solution built with allegro serve? How do you make it into the equivalent of a daemon/service and have it run like IIS or apache. 23:03:49 assume that 'project is a stupid class and 'project-view a stupid defview 23:04:11 so far, every tutorial I've seen has been REPL based "hello world" samples where user interaction is required. 23:05:07 memet: the webserver (paserve or hunchentoot) will listen for incoming http connections and handle them. 23:05:11 your class instance will need a reader which is apparently preferred to using a manual render-object 23:05:20 according to the docs. 23:05:32 memet: not sure I understand your question. 23:05:42 memet 23:05:46 tcr: source transforms are reapplied during ir1-optimisation, maybe. 23:05:49 he wants to know how to deploy a lisp system based on alegro-serv 23:05:54 you can run the lisp as a service 23:05:57 ok, clarification: by daemon/service, what I refer to is automatic start stop on machine shut down, and all the kinds of things you would expect 23:06:11 I see. what direction should I investigate for "running as a lisp service" ? 23:06:21 what OS? 23:06:28 OSX + Windows 23:06:37 OSX development, possibly Windows deployment 23:06:40 Fade: what ? I don' understand ... can you give me the link to the docs explaining that ? 23:07:17 there is documentation page and some code for running allegrocl as a service, it could probably be adapted to SBCL 23:07:25 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:07:36 pkhuong: Compiler-macros came in relatively late into the standard, perhaps source-transforms stem from cmucl's time before their introduction. 23:07:37 memet: That would depend on the lisp environment you're using. 23:07:41 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 23:07:45 am using SBCL 23:07:46 I paste the class and defview .. 23:08:01 memet: On windows? Brave choice! 23:08:36 yeah, I would personally look at the allegro-as-a-service example and then implement that for sbcl windows 23:08:38 memet: on Mac OS X, you'll make a LaunchDaemon. (basically a properties file and a shell script to start your process.) 23:08:43 ok. corrolary question: how do you deploy a lisp binary to a foreign machine? can such a thing be done? My experience with lisp is all academic, no professional. I know how to deploy in many other languages, but have no idea what is technically involved in deploying a lisp app. 23:08:55 in the 'breaking the ice' turorial, under the Views heading, it talks about reader methods in composite widgets. 23:09:06 ljosa: got it... 23:09:17 memet: what would you expect that would be different? 23:09:59 do I need to deploy or setup a lisp environment? When I build a C++ project, I can make sure that it runs so long as the system is Win32. I don't know if it works that way in Lisp. 23:10:16 memet: read about "delivery" in the doc for the lisp you're using. you'll typically dump to an image and deliver that (usually together with a small binary that loads it). 23:10:26 memet: Again, this depends on the implementation, but often you will need to deploy a full lisp environment. 23:10:35 lisp programs are typically compiled into largish monolithic images that ought to work anywhere 23:10:35 ljosa: great. thanks,that's exactly what I was looking for. 23:10:53 nyef: ok. good to know. thanks. 23:10:55 memet: the image will contain all the lisp code, including libraries, but your target system must have any shared libraries that you're using. 23:11:14 (e.g., for SSL) 23:11:37 some systems allow you to remove parts of lisp that you will never use, but that is more of a pain than necessary, just use the whole lisp 23:11:44 hefner: Really? I wouldn't have thought that images are typically platform independent 23:11:50 memet: if you're deploying on OSX, then there's some support in Clozure for generating executable .app bundles. 23:11:50 ok, when you say shared libraries are you referring to object files that are linked against (I'm thinking C\C++ here), or are you referring to Lisp libraries? 23:12:10 although I've never personlly used the method. 23:12:18 memet: .so files on Linux, .dylib files on Mac OS X. 23:12:21 Referring to things like libz.so, kernel32.dll, etc. 23:12:23 tcr: my dumped 32-bit sbcl-images work out of the box on a remote amd64 machine. i think that's amazing :) 23:12:25 tcr: anywhere within reason (running a compatible operating system and CPU) 23:12:35 ok, gotcha re: libraries 23:12:59 ok, last question regarding a previous comment: SBCL on windows. not a good idea? 23:13:05 not a good idea. 23:13:12 what's a good idea? 23:13:18 depends on what kind of guy you are 23:13:19 Hun: Note that that only works with x86 images, primarily due to binary compatability. 23:13:27 memet: you can also use a telnet-server hack for your lisp-as-a-service (if it doesn't interact with the console) and then you can get to a REPL and tell it to load patches without restarting it 23:13:29 nyef: of course 23:13:40 if you love having to twiddle with stuff, it may be a perfect idea 23:14:36 Relocatable cores and fragmented heap spaces will be a godsend for SBCL/Win32. 23:15:04 yeah, once that's straightened out, you can legitimately call anyone who still has reservations about SBCL/Win32 sissies 23:15:15 nyef: are cores relocatable for sbcl on other platforms? 23:15:23 would SBCL be robust enough to handle say 200k hits a month? 23:15:26 manic12_: ... No. 23:15:41 on macosx 23:15:51 SBCL is not a web server :) 23:16:02 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:09 Allegro running on SBCL 23:16:14 AServe that is 23:16:18 allegroserve 23:16:21 And SBCL on OSX leaks memory any... Heey, I think I know how to fix that without dealing with the backtrace stuff. 23:16:31 Fade: ok .. I just add readers and no change .. nothing is rendered 23:16:34 eek 23:16:48 I just use Allegro 23:16:48 nyef: don't say that here, enemies of SBCL will use it as propaganda 23:17:01 hefner: What, here in #sbcl-devel? 23:17:27 the enemy is everywhere 23:17:39 It's a known bug, it's in the tracker, which is publically available, and I may have a lead on a workaround. 23:17:47 the enemy? 23:18:01 are they dangerous? 23:18:10 the enemy is always dangerous. 23:18:15 (Here's to ten years of harming the software industry!) 23:18:44 memet: if your going to be getting that many hits than you can probably afford AllegroCL 23:19:01 which runs on windows nicely as a service 23:19:40 Heh. Not really. I talked to their guys, and the pricing scheme was absurd. We're what you'd call a "mom and pop shop". 23:19:55 lispworks + hunchetoot? 23:20:19 isn't lispworks about the same price as allegro if you don't count the support? 23:20:41 (the support ideologies being different apples and oranges i mean) 23:20:52 well, I'm going with the idea that Allegro is a robust platform, and that if they've made AllegroServe free, I might as well take advantage of that. What it boils down to then is the underlying implementation I chose to use. 23:21:01 franz also has price for users 23:21:06 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 23:21:15 I think AllegroServe is robust on Allegro 23:21:21 I'm looking for something that isn't gonna soil itself after 12 hours of operation and require constant restarts and hand holding... 23:21:25 maybe not so much anywhere else 23:21:38 I wouldn't run a site like that on paserve 23:22:03 but you would on hunchentoot? 23:22:16 AllegroCL + Aserve (if it doesn't work than Franz will make it work) 23:22:28 -!- thecat [n=thecat@chello212017079198.13.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:22:54 I wouldn't run a site on windows if I could avoid it. 23:23:00 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:23:13 memet: would you be willing to share with us any details of your service? 23:23:15 Which leads straight to linux + sbcl + whatever as an implementation platform. 23:23:20 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 23:23:28 or FreeBSD 23:23:40 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-87-237.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:07 Well, I can't avoid it partially because our DB is SQL Server, but also because our server is windows and has a load of stuff going on already. I'm just trying to migrate towards a different implementation, with the idea in the back of my mind that eventually, if the system can be made into a lisp based service, I can move it to a different server (linux/bsd etc) 23:24:21 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.240.13] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:24:41 manic12_: it's a service that caters to health care professionals. Creates and manages websites on the fly for their offices. 23:24:50 Is there a good way to browse through only xft fonts available on a system? 23:24:56 sorry, wrong channel 23:24:56 i think a cheap 64bit linux + sbcl amd machine would work nicely 23:25:06 -!- postamar [n=postamar@206-248-186-48.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [No route to host] 23:25:31 memet, sounds cool, Lisp is good for dynamic stuff! 23:25:34 manic12_: I wouldn't like using a cheap machine, at least not _single_ cheap machine 23:25:38 What does this mean? fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 12524(tid 140304807765728): 23:25:38 GC invariant lost, file "gencgc.c", line 4608 23:25:39 nothing spectacular. IT's just that the numbers are growing, and the maintenance costs are growing in a way I dislike. Also the elegance of the system is dying as small changes here and there to accomodate for various demands are putting a strain on the original design... 23:25:58 by cheap I don't mean something you built from newegg 23:26:11 cheap like a dell optiplex or something 23:26:12 memet: This is one of those cases where you're trying to target an under-represented platform, so we can't help -that- much. 23:26:29 LiamH: ran out of memory? 23:27:03 stassats: oh. Hmm, I wonder why. 23:27:22 *nyef* glances at his latest design for an sbcl-based win32 lisp. 23:27:25 memet: Linux+SBCL or Windows+Allegro or MacOS + Allegro (imho) 23:27:26 nyef: I understand that pretty well. I'm not really expecting it to be deployment ready, but I would like to be able to do some live tests on the server. try running small bits of the service as lisp, and see how it behaves etc. 23:27:52 LiamH: but maybe not, it says "Heap exhausted, game over." for me when out of memory 23:27:55 manic12_: can you give me a second best for Windows? 23:27:58 CMUCL mabye? 23:28:04 Lispworks 23:28:10 great. 23:28:11 CMUCL? On windows? That'll be the day. 23:28:22 anyone have any objections to manic12_'s assertion? 23:28:34 memet: clisp 23:28:41 CCL 64bit? I dunno how well it works on windows, though 23:28:45 stassats: "GC invariant lost" = "heap exhausted"? 23:28:52 You might also consider ECL, GCL, clisp or... corman lisp? 23:29:07 heh, maybe you could run vmware and run sbcl 23:29:12 memet: You might also try with ECL, though I don't know how much stuff works on it :) 23:29:13 LiamH: i have no idea 23:29:30 manic12_: Needs a connection to a SQL Server DB, ideally via ODBC. 23:29:35 memet: You might also try running colinux and sbcl inside it (rather crazy, though) 23:29:38 ah 23:29:48 do hunchentoot or aserve work well with clisp, gcl, ecl, ...? 23:29:55 i was just kidding (kinda) 23:30:00 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:16 Now, if you can talk to an MS SQL Server DB from Linux... 23:30:30 you can't? 23:30:32 (Actually, I should look into that. I might have a use-case.) 23:30:41 I don't know if you can. 23:30:53 can you from windows? 23:30:55 jaoswald [n=user@user-12lcm4g.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:06 I think you can talk, as SQL Server is descended from Sybase 23:31:32 talk to mssql server from lisp via odbc? I'm pretty darn sure. 23:32:27 manic12_: I think there are libs to access it from linux. Also, you could try loading Windows ODBC driver through wine, but that would be rather crazy way to do it :) 23:32:28 stassats: clisp doesn't have multiprocessing (threads), so it's not the best choice for a web app. 23:32:31 Hrm... Looks like it is workable. 23:32:49 personally I would work something out with Franz 23:33:04 ljosa: it has, actually, but it is not usable at the momet 23:33:09 it's just less headache in the long run 23:33:23 alright everyone, you've been very helpful. Thank you all. 23:33:24 unless your on linux, in which case SBCL is good too 23:33:59 -!- memet [n=memet@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has left #lisp 23:34:13 didn't paul graham use clisp for viaweb? 23:34:22 Hrm... Hey, SQL Server client protocol docs! 23:34:38 is cost of ACL license suffice to fund sbcl development on windows? 23:34:46 manic: yes 23:35:05 stassats: no, not really! 23:35:36 trust me, i have allegro and have been farting around with an sbcl win64 port 23:36:22 Ooh. A win64 port? 23:36:37 yes, but it has been difficult so far 23:36:40 I don't suppose you've gotten as far as figuring out stack unwinding, have you? 23:36:50 heck no 23:36:56 EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:58 Damn. 23:37:00 can't even get the binary to run yet 23:37:35 nyef: i rely on you guys to do that stuff 23:38:06 this week (not in lisp) i spent four and a hlaf days finding one bug in a library 23:38:14 I've been trying to figure out the stack unwinding off-and-on for a while now, and haven't come to any usable conclusions. :-/ 23:38:28 At least Win32 stack unwinding works properly. 23:38:45 (Making it the -only- platform that SBCL does the right thing on.) 23:38:51 nyef: have you started a win64 port? 23:38:58 we could share some notes 23:39:05 No, I have not. 23:39:10 I don't have a win64 box. 23:39:17 do you have win64 access? 23:39:22 guess not 23:39:29 But the unwind logic is the same as that used on every other platform. 23:40:18 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:35 Okay, maybe not OSX, but that's more a matter of not actually having checked. 23:40:39 because x64 has more registers it doesn't need to push and pop return values or something, it just leaves em there 23:41:01 (going by fuzzy memory) 23:41:14 I suppose it doesn't help that win64 has a different calling convention than every other x86-64 system out there. 23:41:23 (Calling convention and memory model.) 23:41:34 nyef: When Win64 is the only reason why segment registers exist at all on x64... 23:41:43 yeah doesn't help 23:42:04 win64 only uses segment registers for WOW 23:42:17 (afaik) 23:42:37 manic12_: WOW? 23:42:37 manic12_: They are used in some parts of ABI 23:42:43 in x64 mode it's a flat memory model 23:42:48 jaoswald: Windows On Windows 23:42:48 jaoswald: Windows on Windows. 23:42:54 win32 on win64 23:43:12 manic12_: win32 is also flat memory. However, the segment registers are used as pointers to certain structures 23:43:13 (WoW16 was the mechanism for running Win16 programs on Win32 platforms.) 23:43:15 but there are some gotchas 23:43:16 That was my guess, thanks 23:44:17 AFAIK it was FS? and GS? registers which pointed to certain structures that were very important from the pov of ABI 23:44:28 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has left #lisp 23:44:31 but I might get the names wrong 23:44:37 p_l: if the windows (32 bit) operating system can give 3 gb of ram to each process, how could it not be using segement registers and long pointers? 23:44:53 manic12_: It doesn't need to? 23:45:38 You can give even near 4G of memory to userspace process, as long as you figure a way to keep all required system structures out 23:45:49 of course being a lisp hacker I am somewhat insulated from these details, but I thought it gave each program it's own data and code segments, but i dunno 23:46:05 manic12_: Win32 runs on flat memory model 23:46:14 ok :| 23:46:54 Address Window Extensions are equivalent of what is used on 32bit linux to access memory outside available address space 23:47:06 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:35 *hefner* is continually amazed how many people don't understand virtual memory 23:47:52 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:48:04 on linux you play with mmap() and hugepages, on Windows there are Address Windowing Extensions or something like this that gives API for that 23:48:31 manic12_: memory segments died out together with the 80286 23:48:57 hefner, I do know that the later x86 chips manage virtual memory for (or in-conjunction-with) the os 23:49:26 Note that AWE is useless for our purposes, as it page-locks the memory. 23:49:35 (Can't be swapped out.) 23:50:07 Have I mentioned recently how lame Win32 memory management can be at times? 23:50:11 manic12_: How so? The only thing AFAIK is that it reads OS-prepared pagetree when it tries to resolve an address 23:50:39 They managed some decent excellence in the VirtualXXX functions, and then completely dropped the ball for MapViewOfFile. 23:50:46 i dunno, i read it in the IA-32 manual on the intel website 23:51:12 Nah, the main thing is rewriting the page tables on task switch. 23:51:19 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:51:25 have I mentioned recently how much i wish symbolics was still around? 23:51:56 If they were, we'd be bitching about how much it cost for a license. 23:52:01 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-220-199.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:52:17 everyone would be running Franz 23:52:47 manic12_: And Stallman would be making his GNG - GNG is Not Genera :P 23:53:29 as long as it's better 23:53:51 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:53:56 *p_l* wouldn't expect it to be better 23:53:57 what if's are useless though 23:54:22 better to just deal with reality 23:54:46 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 23:54:51 define 'reality' 23:55:09 sorry, couldn'r ressist 23:55:21 health insurance. 23:55:41 -!- homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-76bf2f87c164ce3c] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:56:38 homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-79bcac4fc8d3d25f] has joined #lisp 23:56:47 i argue with the engineers at franz that we should have a "lisp" chip 23:57:27 manic12_: After we get nanofabs, no problem. Make a design, throw it in, 4hrs later receive your complete lispmachine :P 23:57:29 p_l: No, Stallman would be providing equivalents to everything Symbolics came up with to LMI for free. :-P 23:57:52 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 23:57:53 lol 23:58:12 Well, I'm hoping to see GCC losing it's privileged place :>