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[n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:32 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-35-80.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:15 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-58-237.man.east.verizon.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 05:35:51 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:38:22 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:42:37 jesse__ [n=jesse@cpe-65-30-77-108.kc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:43:13 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.136.110] has joined #lisp 05:45:30 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:58 fusss: gonna finally start writing some code today :) 05:46:22 felideon: heh, special you! haven't coded in 10 or so days 05:47:11 sykopomp: sheeple is starting to seem working, congrats! :-) 05:47:37 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:51 -!- jesse__ [n=jesse@cpe-65-30-77-108.kc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 05:48:04 fusss: it already works, at least most things that would be useful :) 05:48:23 fusss: hehe nic. I gave up with Elephant :( 05:48:53 felideon: great! now you have a chance to try the other 10 CL object stores! 05:49:34 "Sheeple is fully buzzword compliant." funny :) 05:49:42 fusss: there's not that many worthwhile ones. Only Elephant, rucksack, cl-prevalence, and bknr.datastore come to mind. I think there's a fifth one that gets thrown out there. 05:50:08 felideon: "Sheeple has a CLOS-like hierarchy for fleeced wolves" :-P i like this guy 05:50:11 fusss: lol. actually, I'm just going to plug straight into CouchDB. we'll see how that goes. 05:50:36 fusss: I'm slowly running out of groan-inducing names :( 05:50:49 felideon: i see you have been reading new.yc/prog.reddit and other hype engines 05:51:20 fusss: guilty. you think that's a bad thing? it seems like a good for what I want to play around with as my first project in Lisp: a blog platform 05:52:53 you want a first lisp project? try "wrapping" a PTSD phone service with a web api my friend. asterisk + web front end + 5 different languages + calling rates by the fraction of the cent + paypal/googlecheck/cash gateway to credit card payment. losing my hair i tell ya. 05:53:24 felideon: I get the impression that the hype engines might help bring stuff up into the daylight, which may or may not get them enough support to turn their 'thing' into an 'awesome' 05:53:48 fusss: interesting. but I was shooting for a web app to start with :) 05:54:45 sykopomp: i see what you mean 05:54:59 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:55:03 felideon: don't trust anything I say, I usually don't know what I'm talking about :) 05:55:10 lol 05:55:26 sykopomp: but .. you're on the internet. you surely MUST know stuff. 05:55:33 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@ppp7-38.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:55:35 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 05:55:53 fusss: I just like to make you think that. 05:57:08 anyone have any idea why a 05:57:20 "professional" writer would troll a newsgroup? 05:57:26 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 05:57:47 felideon: because newsgroups are on the internet. 05:58:01 yeah but comon... his name is on a book cover 05:58:22 have you been to a bookstore? 05:58:24 gaah, my new VPS account has an IP that was used by a spammer. just didn't a reverse DNS lookup and apparently i'm a pill-peddler. time to call support :-S 05:58:29 do you really think that's a reason to think highly of anyone? 05:59:08 otoh, a domain with page rank of 5 resolves to my ip :-P 05:59:18 -!- beach` is now known as beach 05:59:21 -!- ltbarcly` [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:59:33 Good morning. 05:59:35 heh 05:59:39 mornin' beach 05:59:43 bonjour 06:00:14 ltbarcly` [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:20 i 06:00:25 hey beach 06:02:06 sykopomp: are you the guy I was talking to a while back that had a minor or something in linguistics? 06:02:15 felideon: yes 06:02:22 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:02:24 k. thought so. 06:02:50 when are we making a text-to-speech Lisp program? :) 06:02:59 I'm not. 06:03:38 I'm thinking of trying to implement small chunks of processing using lispbuilder-sdl 06:03:47 might be a fun way to get some practice doing graphics-related stuff 06:04:19 sykopomp: or do skippy/vecto using javascript via parenscript 06:04:32 client-side skippy/vecto :-) 06:04:37 fusss: :| 06:04:41 or even cl-gd 06:05:13 and svg are widely supported now. a minified js file can enable both in IE6, and that is the benchmark of ubiquity. 06:06:32 do you realize dynamic html has the capability to implement everything you see in the Visual Studio GUI builder? the OS is _dead_ 06:08:09 except for Silverlight 06:08:40 wont make a dent 06:08:48 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 06:10:33 and WPF? 06:13:33 MS can't just push new proprietary stuff like it used, specially when it has to compete with AIR and JavaFX, both rushing to be more open than the other, and all of them playing catchup with dynamic html in terms of ease of development. 06:14:15 web development in the old "software product" fashion is over. you really can't beat html5, css and javascript in terms of low-barrier to entry 06:16:05 Mozilla wants to make into an OpenGL ES graphics context, WebKit and Opera will join them and WPF will looks childish and over-engineered, suddenly. 06:16:13 what do you mean by low-barrier to entry 06:16:49 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:16:57 ok I see your point for the web. but for desktop applications, I don't see AIR gaining much traction of WPF. 06:17:12 the complete absence of a compilation entry. readable source code. ubiquitous development tools (just an editor with syntax highlighting), etc. 06:17:12 than WPF * 06:17:24 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-69-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:17:29 gotcha 06:17:43 Adobe just announced 100 million installations of AIR today. how much Silverlight is out there? 06:18:37 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:18:52 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:18:53 I bet there's more VB.NET and C# developers willing to learn WPF than there are AIR developers. Flash was created for designers, not programmers. AIR will be used by designers. 06:18:59 correct me if I'm wrong, though. 06:20:27 100 million sounds like a lot. 06:20:31 like.... a -lot- 06:20:36 air/flex are more java than anything nowadays. even the bloated over-abundant documentation is reminiscent of javadoc. 06:21:16 ozy`: everybody wants to see their youtube videos with annotations. "upgrade to flash 10 .. i mean, AIR" ;-) plus it comes bundled with acroread 06:21:39 heh 06:22:40 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:22:53 fusss: hmmm, smells like monopoly abuse.... 06:24:38 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Success] 06:25:34 "flash" has as many job openings as "vb.net" and nearly has much as "c#", microsoft's all-purpose programming language of choice. people don't just pickup the latest thing and use it. they learn whatever that has tools, books and tutorials available first. silverlight will need another 8 years to be where flash is today. 06:25:52 my job reference quotes are from monster.com 06:26:01 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 06:28:17 i'm all in for "no dent", but we're offtopic. 06:28:28 true 06:30:24 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 06:30:40 bringing Lisp into the picture. I mention "Lisp" at work (a MSFT shop) and I always get a giggle, as if I was just kidding or using it as a buzzword. First time the conversation got a little serious, they were like "Yeah, but can you create pseudo-transparent windows with animations, etc. with Lisp?" 06:30:44 referring to WPF, of course. 06:34:22 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:38:04 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:38:53 felideon: WPF supports transparent windows? sounds like an alpha-quality product to me.... 06:39:47 felideon: nearly UI toolkit has alpha transparency, even bloody html does 06:40:21 yeah well that's what I get for talking about how great the Mercedes-Benz is and not even having driven one yet. :) 06:40:30 javascript does animation tweening and has physics engines built for it :-) 06:46:55 felideon: make this into parenscript, for fun and bragging rights :-) http://box2d-js.sourceforge.net/index2.html 06:48:00 nice 06:49:36 felideon: My experience is that mentioning Lisp indeed provokes giggles, but people giggle alot less when you show them a complete application in half the time it would have taken them. Then you don't have to mention it anymore; people will spontaneously come and ask. 06:50:53 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:50:57 felideon: and then you get to say things like "Yah, but can you create a GUI with presentation types in Javascript or C#?". 06:51:03 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 06:51:30 beach: you can make a cross-platform one, though :P 06:51:48 McClim has trouble running properly even on linux... 06:52:08 felideon` [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:57 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.136.110] has quit [Success] 06:53:01 good point 06:53:01 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:53:15 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.136.110] has joined #lisp 06:53:36 felideon`: which one? 06:54:35 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 06:54:43 -!- felideon` is now known as help 06:54:47 lol 06:54:50 -!- help is now known as felideon 06:55:23 here is a very classy javascript UI (unlike most iphone-looking crap you see) http://www.glassbox-js.com/ 06:55:24 beach: your point about showing people substance, rather than just talking 06:55:36 felideon: OK 06:56:15 fusss: that's pretty nice 06:56:40 eno__ [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:57:05 fusss: it's also lagging the living daylights out of conkeror 06:57:20 felideon: what is nice about it? 06:57:31 try to drag the menu and see how it handles overlapping windows with transparency :-) 06:57:39 wow. It's pretty unusable. 06:57:50 benny [n=benny@i577A051C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:57:53 I personally think it is a horribly piece of junk that wastes my time. 06:58:33 beach: what is?.. 'showing off'? 06:58:39 -!- eno__ [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Client Quit] 06:59:01 beach: that pretty much describes 99.99% of the web. but there people who want to see that. 06:59:03 beach: it just proves fusss' point about Silverlight/Flash not being the only technologies you can use for "flashy" stuff 06:59:09 sykopomp: the interface at that URL. It is just eye candy. 06:59:40 and that's eye-candy we can do from lisp if we want to. and we don't need a friken FFI to do it :-) 06:59:42 fusss: I realize that there are people like that, and it is my job to convince some of them otherwise. 07:00:01 beach: try going to the API page. It's a slideshow, at best :) 07:00:15 I think I'll pass. 07:00:20 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:00:31 heh :P 07:00:39 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 07:00:56 beach: that's like teaching a whole country not to litter. 07:00:59 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 07:01:06 felideon: someone has to try. 07:02:17 e.g. Singapore. Caning as punishment. 07:03:19 well you probably don't get caned for littering, but you get my point. 07:03:44 I am not in a position to introduce caning as punishment for not using CLIM. 07:04:37 Time to go to work. See you later. 07:04:49 bye beach 07:05:11 later 07:05:43 perhaps there could be a pilot program where people are caned if they choose ltk over clim... 07:05:51 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:06:11 i think the punishment for that will be self-delivered 07:06:29 fusss: does that mean the pilot is a success? 07:06:41 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 07:07:13 wrt to ltk? yes! i carry scars on my forehead, all rectangular and spaced just like the keys on my thinkpad 07:07:34 I see. 07:07:45 parody2 [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:15 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:18 Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has joined #lisp 07:09:51 fualo [n=fualo@d170-106.primero-2.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 07:10:29 anyone use aquamacs + clisp here? 07:26:16 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-238-145.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 07:28:29 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:28:31 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:28:41 -!- parody2 [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:28:46 Hi 07:29:28 brill [n=brill@0x57386175.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:30:46 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 07:31:16 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:46 can i bind a special variable at compile time so that macroexpanders have compile-time dynamic context? i.e. (defmacro with-foo (() &body body) (let* ((*var* nil) (body (macroexpand body))) `(progn ,@body)) 07:31:48 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:31:54 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:32:11 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:34:12 <_8david> I'm not sure I understand what you really want. Why are you calling macroexpand explicitly here? 07:36:20 what i really want is: the body of the macro expands several other macros, and depending on the (constant) arguments to those macros, the code in the body needs to be executed 07:36:31 (or not, at run time) 07:37:48 i would like to avoid having to use a code walker to collect the information that is needed to decide whether the body is applicable or not, so i thought i could push the information to a dynamically established context at macroexpansion time. 07:38:20 <_8david> If you're calling MACROEXPAND explicitly in the outer macro, you are writing a code walker. 07:38:52 <_8david> There's a nice trick involving explicit calls to macroexpand in the inner macro, but it's different. To pass DATA from macro OUTER to INNER, you could write 07:39:14 <_8david> (defmacro outer (&body body) `(macrolet ((gensym () ,)) ,@body)) 07:39:35 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 07:39:36 <_8david> and (defmacro inner (&environment env) (let ((magic-data-from-outer (macroexpand '(gensym) env))) `(... do something with that magic data ....))) 07:39:46 <_8david> From your description, I'm not sure whether that's what you need though. 07:40:15 i'll need some time to digest that, thanks :) 07:44:51 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:46:24 mvilleneuve [n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:32 good morning 07:47:40 mega1 [n=mega@3e70cb0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:49:03 fualo pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74560 07:50:40 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:49 jlf`` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 07:53:21 caoliver annotated #74560 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74560#1 07:53:28 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:54:36 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:58:25 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:51 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:01:53 can gnus auto-filter crossposts or all responses to a certain poster? 08:02:46 i'm sick of xah lee and can't force tin to auto-filter crossposts 08:03:48 -!- merach [n=merach@c-71-199-20-205.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 08:04:44 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 08:06:44 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:08:17 can't you just ignore Xah? or do you want to auto-filter any crossposter? 08:12:19 felideon, people from all newsgroups respond to his crap spreading it to cll 08:13:06 maybe not all crossposts are bad, but all posts with multiple followups are crap 08:13:07 oh i see what you mean 08:15:55 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:59 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:18:46 -!- ltbarcly` [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:20:52 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:22:11 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.136.110] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:27:44 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 08:28:50 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:29:02 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 08:29:35 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.136.110] has joined #lisp 08:29:45 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:30:07 nite all 08:30:20 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:35:34 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:38:03 -!- jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 08:42:44 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-68-101.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 08:43:32 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[away] 08:43:36 -!- spec[away] is now known as spec[afk] 08:46:33 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:47:37 Good morning. 08:49:15 hi, spiaggia. 08:52:03 kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has joined #lisp 08:54:40 hello spiaggia 08:55:08 good morning 08:55:34 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-102-11.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:50 -!- felix^^_ [n=fgeller@dslb-088-074-216-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:00:18 weirdo: haha :-P 09:01:26 hello lispers 09:06:50 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:07:42 -!- fualo [n=fualo@d170-106.primero-2.ucdavis.edu] has quit [] 09:08:06 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:08:08 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:19:17 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA4E2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:21 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CC61.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:19:23 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 09:20:05 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-68-101.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:20:18 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CC61.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:52 -!- brill [n=brill@0x57386175.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:29:54 eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:29:57 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:30:20 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:31:19 impomatic [n=John@nat65.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:33:06 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.43.218] has joined #lisp 09:33:37 brill [n=brill@0x57386175.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:38:04 -!- impomatic [n=John@nat65.mia.three.co.uk] has quit ["programming @ http://tr.im/xey"] 09:43:46 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:44:50 -!- patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [] 09:51:59 anyone remember the nick/name of the guy doing io multiplexing using his own very low-level (not iolib) type lisp library? .. i think he was from japan (.jp) or something 09:53:06 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:53:43 olejorgenb [i=bronner@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 09:53:46 you know what? emacs' lexical-let actually works properly 09:54:28 lnostdal: i think http://www.msi.co.jp/~fremlin/projects/snmp-async/ 09:54:31 -!- Jarv2 is now known as djarvelis 09:57:24 clhs macroexpand-all 09:57:24 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for macroexpand-all. 09:57:32 clhs macroexpand 09:57:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm 10:00:11 thanks, attila_lendvai 10:00:27 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 10:01:06 weirdo: Emacs' cl.el stuff is a great example for both of how powerful Lisp macros can be, and simultaneously how horrendous they are. 10:01:09 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:01:10 H4ns: fyi, there's a macroexpand-all in cl-walker 10:01:23 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:02:21 attila_lendvai: thanks. i think i need to avoid importing a full code walker into this project. i hoped that i could come up with a solution the does not require one, but it seems like it does 10:03:18 H4ns: You can copy the implementation-specific stuff from the swank-backends 10:03:22 sbcl and ccl both have macroexpand-all 10:03:45 clisp does, too, it's broken though. (Depending on your need its brokenness does not matter though) 10:03:52 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 10:04:02 i need ccl and sbcl support. maybe i can use that, thanks! 10:06:32 H4ns pasted "bad style?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74564 10:07:50 -!- drafael|away [n=drafael@ip-118-90-129-216.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 10:08:05 what is sbcl's macroexpand-all called? 10:08:08 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:08:16 sb-walker:macroexpand-all, iirc 10:09:25 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:40 sb-cltl2:macroexpand-all 10:09:41 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:10:22 yep 10:10:48 and ccl has macroexpand-all for not so long 10:10:58 it is in post-1.2 trunk 10:11:10 ah, ok - i need to (require "SB-CLTL2"), then i have it in this sbcl version 10:11:18 thanks much! 10:12:56 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:40 I'm trying to build sbcl on sparc64 linux and the host sbcl segfaults after 40 minutes. 10:13:51 Xof, is this supposed to work? 10:14:19 H4ns: Strictly speaking, it's unportable what you're doing 10:14:21 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:36 tcr: because of the macroexpand-all, or because of something else? 10:14:54 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-121-51.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:15:43 code executed in a macro is specified to be executed in an environment that is different to the run-time environment 10:15:50 possibly different 10:16:48 H4ns: I don't see the need for propagating information from inner-macros upwards in your example 10:17:25 tcr: i have multiple INNER type macros, and i need to access the concrete argument values in the macro expansion. 10:17:52 of all inner macros? 10:17:54 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:17:58 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:18:18 drafael [n=quassel@ip-118-90-129-216.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:19:01 tcr: yes - the evaluation of the body of with-outer needs to be controlled by a run-time value and the concrete arguments given to all inner-style arguments in the with-outer's body 10:20:31 using a code walker would be the proper solution 10:20:46 tcr: but i don't quite understand your comment regarding the different environments at macroexpansion and run-time. i think i am collecting the concrete argument values all at macroexpansion time (in one environment, where *context* is bound) 10:22:06 tcr: isn't macroexpand-all a code walker? 10:22:32 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:07 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:24:13 it'd be safer if you used (locally (declare (special *context*)) ...) in INNER, and (let* ((*context* ...) ...) (declare (special *context*))) 10:25:09 makes sense, thanks! 10:27:54 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.136.110] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:28:51 H4ns: I think it'd be matter to declare INNER in a MACROLET with different definitions for the body passed to macroexpand-all, and the body the macro expands to 10:29:30 only its first definition pushes to *context* 10:29:53 tcr: that would be nice if i had only one INNER macro, but as i have multiple, such a scheme would be hard to maintain 10:30:30 tcr: also, i am not allowing the use of the INNER macros anywhere except in the WITH-OUTER things, they are part of a specialized DSL if you will. 10:31:17 the problem is that the macro definition will push also if its expanded implicitly by the compiler 10:31:59 ah, that's why i meant to write PUSHNEW :) 10:32:04 you can make the toplevel macro definition find out whether it's called from the macroexpand-all call, though 10:32:15 how so? 10:33:08 sulo [n=sulo@p57B4ADE7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:33:13 (defmacro expand-all-p () nil) ... in WITH-OUTER: (macroexpand-all `(macrolet ((expand-all-p () t)) ,@body)), then in iINNER (if (macroexpand '(expand-all-p) env) ... ...) 10:33:46 ah, ok. i'm thinking of ways how my code would break if i leave it as it is, though. 10:33:54 the problem that I'm not sure what the binding of *context* is if INNER is expanded by the compiler 10:34:11 what does #_ in ccl? 10:34:53 H4ns: Perhaps an (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (defvar *context* nil)) is warranted 10:35:06 #_ seems to be some ffi thing... is there a way to do the same thing without a reader? 10:35:26 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 10:35:26 attila_lendvai: I thought it READs the symbol preserving case 10:35:32 attila_lendvai: it performs a lookup of the given name in ccl's foreign function tables, at compile time. 10:35:34 but that's just my guess 10:35:59 attila_lendvai: try (macroexpand '(#_getpid)) 10:36:40 someone used it in local-time in a #+ccl block, but ECL chokes on it at read time. i wonder why sbcl doesn't... 10:36:54 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177150209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:37:04 H4ns: If you do the (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (defvar *context* nil)), I think you don't even need the local special-declaratioons 10:37:17 let me try that 10:37:54 attila_lendvai: Perhaps ECL doesn't read the expression following a #+foo evaluating to false with *read-suppress* being t 10:38:17 tcr: ccl does not like that. i'll stay with the local declarations 10:38:50 how does it not like that? 10:38:57 it reports an internal error :/ 10:39:49 but with a perfectly readable backtrace, I'm sure! 10:39:50 tcr, H4ns: thanks for the info! the macroexpand looks way to internalish, so i'll let this problem sleep for a while... 10:40:20 joachim1 [n=j@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:40:52 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:31 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-202-104-251.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:41:32 <_8david> Are job adverts okay on #lisp? We might need a new sysadmin here, probably on a part-time basis, or perhaps a student. In case anyone from Berlin is lurking here and might be interested, please let me know. Willingless to eventually go from sysadmin to Lisp programmer could be a plus. 10:41:38 <_8david> (Note that this is still a little inofficial, so please don't forward it to Lispjobs blogs just yet.) 10:42:58 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:43:06 I thought the Berlin Lisp community is live and kicking... shouldn't be too difficult to find one then :) 10:43:15 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:43:18 -!- joachim1 [n=j@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 10:43:36 "berlin lisp community" ha 10:45:27 Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has joined #lisp 10:48:03 tcr: thanks for helping, this looks quite nice now :) 10:49:04 How about a Danish Lisp community? 10:49:34 or a Swedish! 10:50:19 it's just old farts nipping their beers and giving cynical comments, really 10:51:04 tcr: Why cynical. Nipping beers I can understand. 10:51:17 I was about to say the opposite. 10:54:47 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:56:26 -!- Xlas [n=28@c-4b3e70d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 10:57:09 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:57:20 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 10:59:26 Xlas [n=28@c-4b3e70d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:02:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:03:39 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:04:08 Spaija [n=Miranda@nat/cisco/x-f07230bde5a0803c] has joined #lisp 11:09:02 can someone tell me what #: means? like in (defpackage ... (:use #:common-lisp)) 11:10:01 borism [n=boris@195-50-211-134-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:10:51 klausi: #: creates an uninterned symbol, so when the defpackage is read, it will not create stray symbols 11:11:54 and it works because defpackage doesn't need real symbol, just its name 11:12:25 stassats: which is perfectly sensible because the defpackage is typically read before the files that actually create and use the symbols in the defined package 11:13:09 klausi: bottom line: if you are a beginner, just do it like the pros. you'll understand why a little later. 11:13:45 so it means i can still use the symbol after #: as a normal symbol in my programm 11:14:09 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-211-166-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:28 You could use a string instead of #:common-lisp, but then you have case folding issues to consider. 11:14:29 klausi: no, it means that the symbol #:common-lisp is never used again. you can still use 'common-lisp or :common-lisp somewhere else. 11:14:53 ok thx 11:15:34 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 11:16:00 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 11:18:07 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:39 What lisp functions are required for macro expansion? 11:21:23 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.174.42] has joined #lisp 11:21:59 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-58-112.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:23:41 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BF58.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:06 Quadrescence: please re-phrase your question 11:25:38 cl:macroexpand 11:25:51 otherwise, you only need a turing machine equivalent function. 11:26:48 I'm just thinking about how I would write a macroexpand function in lisp. 11:27:26 Quadrescence: you could look at the source of macroexpand in your implementation 11:29:37 Maybe Queinnec or someone else has information in a book. I'll look. 11:29:58 <_3b> wouldn't it just be MACRO-FUNCTION and FUNCALL? 11:31:53 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:35:33 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:37:24 AWizzArd [n=the@splendidlord.com] has joined #lisp 11:37:46 How can I find all methods which are defined for a given generic function? 11:39:12 (sb-mop:generic-function-methods (sb-mop:ensure-generic-function 'describe-object)) 11:41:04 Or just M-. on the name of the generic function in SLIME. 11:43:22 great, thx you two 11:43:23 or C-c I #'describe-object in slime 11:47:48 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-153-127.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:49:10 etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-52-89.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:34 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:51:43 drakej [n=drakej@12.233.20.2] has joined #lisp 12:02:37 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:15 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:04:23 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:04:59 athos [n=philipp@p54B8597D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:42 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:10:29 -!- klausi [n=klausi@port-92-202-104-251.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 12:10:48 -!- olejorgenb [i=bronner@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has left #lisp 12:12:11 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-156-176.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 12:12:37 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:12:49 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 12:15:28 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:15:48 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 12:18:15 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp193.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:18:22 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:21:56 -!- sulo [n=sulo@p57B4ADE7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:22:03 so ppc is supposed to build with either cheneygc or gengc? 12:22:11 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:24:05 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 12:28:23 Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has joined #lisp 12:32:04 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 12:33:27 I think the gengc is supposed to be rather flaky 12:33:39 -!- drakej [n=drakej@12.233.20.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:34:31 the latest binary was built with gengc 12:34:38 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:34:42 compiles fine 12:35:44 yeah, there were reports on sbcl-help or sbcl-devel of it crashing randomly (maybe during the build, don't remember exactly) 12:36:10 in ways which would normally look like memory corruption, but with the cheneygc version working 12:37:43 Quadrescence: the clhs macroexpand explains it rather well. 12:38:14 -!- AWizzArd [n=the@splendidlord.com] has left #lisp 12:39:44 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:12 > FWIW: I at one point hacked things so more of the GENCGC heap-integrity checking stuff was able to run. On x86 it reported (IIRC) problems only if there were bogus objects produced by a backtrace around (in the test suite), but on PPC it always found invalid pointers during make-target-2.sh: this was true for all versions with PPC GENCGC support I tried it on. 12:40:20 (nikodemus on sbcl-devel) 12:42:56 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:44:26 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:46 adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.26.234] has joined #lisp 12:45:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:45:57 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 12:46:00 blAckEn3d [n=Alex@dslb-088-072-240-251.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:26 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:33 -!- blAckEn3d [n=Alex@dslb-088-072-240-251.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:49:53 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 12:53:07 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bdowning [n=bdowning@98.212.138.194] has joined #lisp 13:07:44 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:07:45 tritchey [n=tritchey@98.226.113.211] has joined #lisp 13:09:35 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:09:41 re 13:10:17 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:10:53 hello reaver__ 13:11:23 reaver__: you haven't spoken very much in the past here. 13:11:49 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:49 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:18:09 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:19:30 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.26.234] has quit ["leaving"] 13:20:02 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 13:23:09 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:24:36 gcopenhaver [n=greg@c-71-206-116-36.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:55 rindolf 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bdowning 15:12:57 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:17 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 15:14:41 mikezor [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:14:45 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-134-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:56 bob_f [n=bob@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:22 -!- drafael is now known as drafael|asleep 15:17:18 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:17:40 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:18:07 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:22 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:28 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:42 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:19:45 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 15:21:09 vixey 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[i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 15:32:20 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47067.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:10 willb [n=wibenton@wireless93.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:36:03 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:46 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Success] 15:36:51 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 15:37:42 -!- Spaija [n=Miranda@nat/cisco/x-f07230bde5a0803c] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:37:54 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 15:40:17 ReiniUrban [n=chatzill@212-183-49-245.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:41:11 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-059-024-241.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:39 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 15:51:05 does anyone here have any experience (positive or negative) about thinlisp ? 15:51:06 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:52:11 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 15:52:13 sulo [n=sulo@213.239.203.245] has joined #lisp 15:54:10 Good afternoon. 15:54:11 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0CA54.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:25 Hello beach. 15:56:42 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-55-32.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:57:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@AASU-101-61.Armstrong.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:57:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:58:36 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:58:54 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:59:09 -!- b4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:59:28 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:41 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:06:39 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb415c.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 16:09:14 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:10:29 -!- moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:03 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CC61.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:39 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.136.110] has joined #lisp 16:12:46 chupish [n=sedwards@waffle.aip.org] has joined #lisp 16:13:23 moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 16:13:30 -!- rotty_ [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14:36 -!- veryCloud [n=user@125.83.3.128] has left #lisp 16:15:32 In a LOOP, aren't the termination clauses evaluated from left to right ? 16:15:44 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:16:59 I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here. 16:17:08 Typically, a termination clause only takes one expression. 16:17:21 if you have more than one while? 16:17:31 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:17:32 (are you even allowed have more than one while?) 16:17:38 Sure you are! 16:17:46 I get the following error: ": ambiguous result: NIL from THEREIS [...] T from NEVER [...]" 16:18:01 It's an (unless FOO (loop-finish)), or something like that. 16:18:03 both are in the same while 16:18:22 where is your code? 16:18:38 Yeah, context would be good. 16:18:39 it's tlt/lisp/special.lisp from thinlisp 16:19:03 if you want help, paste it to lisppaste 16:19:25 ok 16:20:53 kuwabara pasted "from thinlisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74584 16:22:01 "Welcome, to the home of Thinlisp, a practical dialect of lisp for real world applications." - is vaguely offended 16:22:43 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 16:23:01 So this single WHILE has both a NEVER clause and a THEREIS clause. clisp complains that they are ambiguous because one asks for loop termination, while the other ask for continuation. 16:23:16 That's an... odd way to indent loops. 16:23:43 written by emacs-refuseniks? :) 16:25:37 It doesn't seem ambiguous to me... 16:25:49 They are, after all, separate clauses. 16:26:08 The NEVER clause returns T, so the loop should terminate. But clisp also evaluates the following THEREIS clause, which returns NIL, and clisp complain that such a result is ambiguous. 16:26:09 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:09 "Termination-test control constructs can be used anywhere within the loop body. The termination tests are used in the order in which they appear." 16:26:45 stassats: so, it looks like a clisp non-compliance bug ? 16:27:50 Why is garbage collection necessary? Or more exactly, if we have scopes, why can't objects be freed as soon as the scope in which it's defined is exited? 16:27:56 Typical clisp. 16:28:16 Quadrescence: How do you then return values from functions? 16:28:27 um, report the bug? 16:29:10 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:29:15 Quadrescence: And if you suggest a refcount scheme, I have a little story to tell you about someone who asked on IRC why garbage collection is necessary... 16:29:55 *chuckles* 16:30:05 also, look at python the language. :P 16:30:06 Quadrescence: are you suggesting a frightening pass-by-value approach similar to 'newlisp', theN? 16:30:37 Common Lisp is a pass-by-value language... It's just that most of the values are references. 16:31:12 rsynnott: No. Just simply that any item created in a scope should be freed upon exiting that scope. As for function return values, well, the function should "return-by-value". 16:31:46 emss [i=emss@d118-75-37-96.nap.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:06 great, and remove closures from the language... :) 16:33:20 who needs them? 16:33:25 So, we create an array, and want to return it from a function... 16:33:34 Quad: Be careful to understand the difference between scope and extent ... 16:33:40 an array, what if you want to create a lambda? 16:34:13 Quad: When you make a function call, the variables in the function you called from are out of lexical scope, unless captured by a closure, for example -- but their extent continues. 16:34:16 chupish: Doesn't work, characters are immediate values. 16:34:32 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:34:59 I meant with this scheme, you'd have to analize how long it would live; Something Stalin-like would work... 16:35:10 whole program anaylsis for compilation works great... 16:35:31 chup: Have you read Baker's paper on linear lisp? 16:35:34 I'd make a joke about history-rewriting but it seems like too much effort. 16:36:04 Dr. Zhivago, nope, never had doi or link? 16:36:20 Google should work for it. 16:36:31 never have; doi or link (punctuation, bah!) 16:36:49 The only case in which I understand the necessity of GC is in a language which is purely function having no variables. 16:36:58 http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/51286.html 16:37:16 s/function/functional/ 16:37:20 Quadrescence: unlambda? 16:37:36 quad: (foo x) <- how long will x be referred to by something? 16:39:06 you *could* manage it yourself ala Tetra/Crush 16:39:09 Quadrescence: if several globally-accessible places contain references to the same object, how can you determine if the object should be destroyed if you set one of the places to (say) NIL. 16:40:00 thinlisp looks like a peculiar beast. 16:40:04 Zhivago: Depends on what x is, I suppose. 16:40:07 it would be the same as programming in C or other languages; much like the DDJ article that says Java would be great for High Availability Systems so long as you remove GC, dynamic allocation, &c & c 16:40:09 Quad: No. 16:41:13 "At runtime you are limited to a extremely efficent subset of Common Lisp, for example by default there is no garbage collector. " 16:41:20 ^ from the thinlisp "whitepaper" 16:41:23 Zhivago: If x is simply a variable, then we don't know how long x will be referred to. But we can infer from that, that x has (or returns) some value, which was set sometime else in the program. 16:41:46 Quad: Wrong. You cannot refer to variables in CL. Variables are not objects. 16:42:07 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:42:10 Zhivago: Actually, the spec gets -really- twisty around that subject. 16:42:12 Zhivago: I wasn't speaking about CL strictly. 16:42:41 Maybe I should be. 16:42:42 Quad: Let's talk about CL strictly, so that you can understand garbage collection. 16:42:48 It is *possible* to do, I'm not sure I'd want to do it without some impetius, but it's doable 16:42:50 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 16:44:05 I mean, you could end up with BLISS; an expression based language without dynamic allocation, &c. 16:44:17 Well, you are allowed to implement a subset of CL without GC. And you are allowed to provide an implementation specific package with functions such as SYS:FREE 16:44:53 sure, again, it's definitely doable, would you want to is another question though 16:44:58 That just makes the garbage collection manual :) 16:45:15 So writting a program such as (let ((seq (iota 1 10))) (prog1 (mapcar (lambda (x) (* 2 x)) seq) (sys:free-list seq))) would be conformant... 16:45:31 well, yeah, the old "Every sufficiently large C program is ..." 16:45:46 well, except going in the other direction :) 16:45:53 sure 16:45:57 Lisp! Now with segmentation faults! 16:46:01 this conversation seems somewhat perverse. 16:46:11 why? 16:46:19 Zhivago: another option of course, is to have infinite memory (or sufficient hardware support to give the illusion). 16:47:01 rsynnott: (handler-case (do-something) (segfault (err) (correct-it err))) ;-) 16:47:02 Sure. That was an option I took today when faced with a C++ program that was designed around the premise that delete this; was ok if you were going to keep on using this object. 16:48:04 LostMonarch [n=roby@host190-245-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:48:19 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:49:03 Quad: The obvious answer is that it depends on what foo does with x. 16:50:16 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.136.110] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:29 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.136.110] has joined #lisp 16:51:11 dat [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:46 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:54:57 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:54:58 -!- dat [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:55:38 dat [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:48 eno__ [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:56:35 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:56:40 Greetings! 16:57:00 hello tmh 16:57:09 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 16:58:05 This is very off-topic. I have gone through a few RJ45 cables because the clip on the plug breaks off. This is the cable for my laptop that I repeatedly connect and disconnect. Can anyone recommend a decent RJ45 cable with sturdy plugs? 16:58:10 I have a question about setq, is in Lisp something like define variable ? 16:58:32 mrSpec: setq is the assignment operator. 16:58:34 I figure you guys are uber-geeks, so an RJ45 question shouldn't be too hard to field. :-) 16:58:34 setq doesn't define variables 16:58:36 I've just installed slime and (setq foo 5) => warning variable is undefined 16:58:49 (defparameter foo 5) 16:58:50 mrSpec: The variable must already have been created. 16:58:52 in clisp I didnt have warnings.. 16:58:59 tmh: I don't know about sturdy plugs, but what about the ones with the little hood preventing the clip from being bent backwards? 16:59:21 so every time I should use defparameter before using new variable ? 16:59:38 you can use defvar, declare it special 16:59:44 or use lexical variables 16:59:55 nyef: Yeah, I might have to try that. The problem is the clips on the plug loose stiffness and no longer engage. Then, when I bend them back a little, they eventually break off. 16:59:55 themachine [n=kevin@198.6.14.70] has joined #lisp 16:59:57 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Client Quit] 16:59:58 lexical ? 17:00:07 yep 17:00:11 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:00:15 mrSpec: (let ((x ...)) ...) 17:00:21 ahh Ok :) 17:00:30 or arguments of function 17:00:42 read 4th chapter of practical common lisp 17:01:00 heh I didnt know about this, our lecturer didnt say :( 17:01:05 err, 6th 17:01:05 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:09 Alternatively, can anyone recommend a channel to discuss networking hardware? 17:01:10 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-45-60.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:14 ok :) thx 17:01:35 btw. most of You use sbcl ? 17:01:40 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 17:02:09 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 17:02:19 Heh, there is a #networking channel here on freenode. Thanks for your patience. 17:02:21 i wouldn't be surprised if that's true 17:02:25 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 17:04:04 as I've finished my course I can change clisp for something else. should I ? I'm newbie... 17:04:05 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:28 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA4E2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:04:53 mrSpec: I wouldn't change unless you have a specific reason. CLISP is a fine implementation and if you're already familiar with it, keep using it. 17:04:58 mrSpec: It kindof depends on what host environment you have, and what the other options are, what you're planning on doing, etc. 17:05:08 on some platforms sbcl is superior, on others you have no other choices beside clisp 17:05:20 If clisp is too slow, perhaps change :) 17:05:23 mrSpec: It depends on whether you want warnings when trying to assign to undefined variables :) 17:05:35 beach: Heh. 17:05:53 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 17:05:56 beach, ok ;] 17:06:14 I am familiar with clisp but I think I know about 1% of it ;) 17:06:29 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:06:36 mrSpec: It also doesn't hurt to be familiar with multiple implementations. 17:07:13 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 tmh: you can get rj45 jacks with metal clips, but they cost quite a bit. 17:07:41 fualo [n=fualo@d170-106.primero-2.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 17:07:42 are there much different ? 17:08:16 Fade: Thanks, that's what I was looking for, but couldn't find any. At this point, I'm willing to spend extra if it means the clips don't break. 17:08:18 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [Client Quit] 17:09:50 you'd probably have to go to a commercial electrical supply company to get them, but they can be had. 17:14:04 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 17:16:16 aundro [n=aundro@187.211-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 17:19:44 -!- dat [n=dthomp@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:21:27 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:10 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:23 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.136.110] has left #lisp 17:28:25 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf8d3.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 17:30:12 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:59 -!- themachine is now known as parodyoflanguage 17:31:30 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 17:34:01 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:35:12 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:35:19 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 17:37:36 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:40:46 Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 17:40:50 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:44:25 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 17:45:16 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns 17:45:43 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb415c.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:55 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 17:48:44 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C271.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:25 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 17:54:07 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:58:25 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@198.6.14.70] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:01:20 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:01:58 bhz- [n=rack@cpe-065-190-059-116.triad.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:10 josemanuel [n=josemanu@178.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:07:56 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-45-60.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:08:55 -!- Phoodus [n=foo@wsip-24-234-224-152.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:02 -!- eevar_ [n=snuffpup@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:10:41 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-023-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:18 -!- sulo [n=sulo@213.239.203.245] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:14:08 eevar [n=snuffpup@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:23 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:41 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 18:21:49 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:25:39 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:27:50 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 18:28:05 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:28:22 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:26 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-11-71.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:27 omg, another newlisp thread... this should be good. 18:29:27 malsyned [n=malsyned@dsl027-142-013.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:42 "Good" meaning "a complete fiasco"? 18:29:53 "entertaining" 18:30:18 In the "complete fiasco involving people other than yourself" meaing of the term? 18:30:20 ooh, is there? 18:30:29 total waste of time 18:30:34 *rsynnott* just uses usenet for the entertainingly mad people value 18:30:51 It's saddening at best 18:31:09 Is there a standard way to determine what kind of condition is being signaled? 18:31:39 dwave [n=ask@062249178115.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 18:31:39 malsyned: Several. What's your actual use-case? 18:31:55 (handler-case signaling-form (t (v) (what-kind-of-condition-is v))) 18:32:00 vy [n=user@78.167.193.144] has joined #lisp 18:32:21 Umm... That's not much of a use-case. 18:32:32 I don't know, I think Xah has a point with his CONS critique. 8-P 18:32:42 mitja [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 18:32:49 Let me rephrase the question: Why do you want to know the kind of condition? 18:32:51 jimi_hendrix [n=jimi__he@unaffiliated/jimihendrix/x-735601] has joined #lisp 18:32:54 -!- mitja [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has left #lisp 18:33:07 hi...can CL interact with a python script (share variables and such) 18:33:12 nyef: I guess the use case is trying to figure out what kind of conditions my implementation is signaling. The top-level debugger tells me what restarts are available, but not the condition that was signaled. (clisp) 18:33:51 ... I find that hard to believe, but okay... 18:33:57 malsyned: consider using sbcl with slime 18:34:05 jimi_hendrix, with CLPython! 18:34:11 Have a look at TYPE-OF, or in a pinch try printing the actual condition object. 18:34:15 mitja [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 18:34:18 nyef: this is a fiasco! 18:35:11 jimi_hendrix: there is also python-on-lisp .. but the real question is why do you need to do this 18:35:18 nyef: 18:35:19 [67]> (type-of v) 18:35:19 SYSTEM::SIMPLE-UNBOUND-VARIABLE 18:35:19 [71]> (format nil "~A" v) 18:35:19 "EVAL: variable A has no value 18:35:19 " 18:35:35 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [No route to host] 18:35:48 Format it ~S instead? 18:35:56 or inspect/describe it. 18:36:01 drewc, im just messing around with a bot in python and want to add functionality that i think could be coded well in lisp 18:36:13 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-023-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:36:24 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-023-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:03 nyef: format ~S isn't any more useful. It just tells me "#" 18:37:08 jimi_hendrix: it is propably easier to start with cl-irc 18:37:11 jimi_hendrix: why not stick with python? It seems to me that using lisp as a scripting language for a python bot is, well, back-asswaerds. 18:37:41 Maybe the CLISP guys are trying to discourage me from handling this particular condition. Which would make sense since unbound variable conditions are unlikely to occur at runtime in production (compiled) code. 18:37:42 malsyned: And, as the condition is a SIMPLE-UNBOUND-VARIABLE condition, where's the problem? 18:37:50 malsyned: I suggest reading the Clisp documentation about how to use their debugger. 18:37:54 malsyned: Or use Slime. 18:38:12 drewc, im using a scripting language inside a scripting language...ya thats messed up 18:38:16 H4ns, it easy? 18:38:21 Oh. OK, I"m being dumb. I was skimming over the "unbound" part of the type. Sorry. 18:38:30 jimi_hendrix: i found it to be no trouble at all, compile, load, bot 18:38:31 jimi_hendrix: no .. lisp is not a scripting language in any sense of the term. 18:39:24 drewc, 1) i thought lisp could be used as a scripting language (emacs) 2) i want to use lisp to broaden my mind a little 18:39:27 neobakuer [n=neo@unaffiliated/neobakuer] has joined #lisp 18:39:33 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-134-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:40:02 Aren't you experienced? 18:40:02 malsyned: what's your problem? type-of (or class-of) gives the kind of condition. What else do you want? 18:40:03 jimi_hendrix: lisp makes a fine scripting language, but it is also a "real" programming language 18:40:24 pjb: no more problem. problem between keyboard and chair. 18:40:30 ok. 18:40:43 malsyned: you can use inspect to learn about the slots there may be in the condition. 18:40:49 H4ns, ya i know it can be compiled 18:40:55 (inspect (make-condition 'system::simple-unbound-variable)) 18:41:05 H4ns any plans on making hunchentoot singlethreaded ? 18:41:10 -!- ReiniUrban [n=chatzill@212-183-49-245.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp 18:41:51 jimi_hendrix: you're correct, the distinction is between interpreted and compiled. Scripting language implies interpreted. 18:42:02 xristos: you mean "add i/o multiplexing"? we now finally agreed with $customer to put some effort into a release and we'll give that some thought when we do that. 18:42:13 tmh: aha! 18:42:16 tmh: there are sh compilers. 18:42:25 turing completeness implies every language can be compiled 18:42:33 H4ns: strange .. i was just thinking of doing that myself. 18:43:18 drewc: ucw is based on hunchentoot now ? 18:43:38 xristos: no, UCW is, and always will be, independant of backends. 18:43:47 gah sp 18:44:14 pjb: And there are interpreters for C. 18:45:49 "scripting language" has no well defined meaning. it is usually associated with programming languages that are easy to use and control some larger application or operating system, but that is about it. 18:47:02 -!- vy [n=user@78.167.193.144] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:47:20 ' Or "simplifying" the 18:47:20 language by clearing up things like the Great and Horrible Multitude 18:47:21 of Functions that Test for Equality?' 18:47:26 oops, silly line-breaks 18:47:31 fun, though 18:47:42 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 18:48:01 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:48:25 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:35 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 18:48:37 H4ns: do you find hunchentoot on fbsd/threads stable enough ? 18:48:38 'scripting language' is one of these phrases which seems to exist largely to confuse people 18:48:39 "scripting" is the act of simulating human actions via a program. A "scripting language" is a language which supports this 18:48:52 dlowe: So... assembler is a scripting language? 18:49:12 nyef: Only when people used to flip bits by hand :p 18:49:21 xristos: yes, but i only use one http worker thread 18:49:54 dlowe: used to? Computer science students still do! 18:49:55 xristos: without a thread pool manager, hunchentoot is not suitable for sites that could get load spikes. 18:50:19 rsynnott: Computer engineering students still do, not so sure about CS students 18:50:44 H4ns:i know, not too worried about that though 18:51:04 just crashes because of experimental threading in sbcl 18:51:17 *rsynnott* had an entertaining class on digital logic in first year which involved making some very simple arithmetic unit, giving it input via switches, then driving it forward by flipping a switch to simulate a clock :P 18:51:21 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:53 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 18:52:21 (though assembly would not have helped with automating that; a robot of sorts would presumably be required :) ) 18:52:54 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:53:55 I've found hunchentoot (or sbcl) will be happy enough with up to about 20-30 worker threads going at a time 18:55:17 so is apache with mod_lisp still the best way to deliver a high volume web application written in CL? 18:55:20 it works ok with far more than that in linux here 18:55:35 but the problem is in platforms with experimental threading 18:55:45 Fade: i use a http caching proxy as frontend (squid), that works great 18:55:48 + absence of limit on worker threads 18:55:57 Fade: hunchentoot does no longer support mod_lisp 18:55:58 but that can be worked around 18:55:59 it breaks horribly on macos with more than about 10 threads 18:56:00 ice_four [n=ice_four@host86-138-82-249.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:56:08 (or did; haven't tried in a while) 18:56:13 ahh, yeah, i've used reverse proxies in that role with other (non-lisp) systems. 18:56:14 it breaks yes 18:56:31 Fade: reverse-proxy approach, using whatever, seems to work well enough 18:56:52 in sbcl 1.0.4 or about that, with an actual segmentation fault 18:57:12 in 1.0.15, seemingly just by killing the threads without warning 18:57:27 my mac is a ppc box; i don't use it for any lisp dev. 18:58:20 ah, yep, when my main computer was a ppc mac, I used openmcl for dev 18:58:37 bootstrapping mcl is a PITA. 18:58:54 i use sbcl everywhere else 18:58:58 Fade: are you talking about mcl or about openmcl? 18:58:59 mcl the formerly-commercial one, or what is now called clozure? 18:59:07 well, openmcl. 18:59:15 Fade: what's the pain? 18:59:25 it didn't seem too bad last time I did it 18:59:32 you need openmcl to build openmcl. 18:59:44 and they have full release packages which don't need bootstrapping if you prefer 18:59:47 Fade: so? checkout, compile, go. 18:59:50 as I recall the binary for bootstrapping died horribly when I last tried. 18:59:55 Fade: or checkout, go. 19:00:18 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ee3432f5cf4bd5d1] has joined #lisp 19:00:28 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-141-212.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:00:28 i'll likely return to that particular problem eventually. 19:00:33 rebuild binary 19:00:41 it needs gcc 19:00:55 *yawn* 19:01:10 "it needs a computer to run, it sucks!" 19:01:21 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:01:21 the packaged version comes with a click-to-launch hemlock thing :) 19:01:27 H4ns: Too bad turing machines are so lousy at I/O, huh? 19:01:40 nyef: THAT is a pita! 19:01:42 rsynnott: not on linux 19:01:51 (it can also create apple 'applications' for you; an option on save-lisp-and-die, I think) 19:02:03 stassats: yep, I think it's cocoa-only for the moment 19:02:13 though I remember some talk of making it work on gnustep 19:02:48 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A1CD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:03:19 it'd be nice to get IBM to sponsor some work to get sbcl on Cell. 19:03:38 ibm uses lisp? 19:04:13 i'd be surprised if they didn't. 19:06:03 -!- mitja [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [No route to host] 19:06:05 I'm sure they have their own one, from back in the day when it was popular for big iron companies to have a lisp 19:06:07 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.174.42] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:06:21 Fade: ccl doesn't work on cell at the moment? 19:06:28 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.174.42] has joined #lisp 19:06:59 it probably works on the ppc control unit, but I doubt it works /w the other execution units. 19:07:08 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.174.42] has left #lisp 19:07:11 through ffi? 19:07:12 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.174.42] has joined #lisp 19:07:21 Fade: do you want to use the PPC cores? I'm fairly certain it already works. Trying to execute regular lisp on the SPUs sounds like a pipe dream. 19:07:27 Sorry for the join/part/quit spam, just dealing with an IRC client throwing a tantrum. 19:07:51 Is there a lisp newbie channel anywhere? 19:08:10 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-059-022-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:11 parodyoflanguage: #lisp-gardeners 19:08:12 #lisp-cafe or something 19:08:19 thanks 19:08:23 H4ns: #cl-gardeners 19:08:33 lispcafe? 19:08:41 ah, cafe is for OT 19:08:46 yes 19:08:50 no pun intended. :) 19:09:28 Krystof [n=csr21@90.137-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:10:04 Okay, there are folks in #cl-gardeners. 19:10:16 There are? 19:10:23 But it almost sounds like a channel meant to weed people out :) 19:10:46 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:11:17 -!- ice_four [n=ice_four@host86-138-82-249.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 19:11:21 that's because lisp is an easy language and we don't have newbies 19:11:44 hah 19:12:37 and our main answer is go read PCL :) 19:12:43 Experience generally makes you better at anything. 19:13:18 Yeah, I noticed this place can be rather newbie-hostile, hence the question. 19:13:35 parodyoflanguage: this place is not "newbie hostile". 19:13:38 Gaaa! 19:13:49 parodyoflanguage: Just the inhabitants ;) 19:13:58 I've only been lisping for 2 years and I'm already tired of the stereotypes. 19:14:03 ? nah we're great with newbies. 19:14:14 Nonsense. We're not hostile to newbies, we're hostile to clueless f!wits. 19:14:16 parodyoflanguage: This place tends to be "lazy ass" and "stupid" hostile :) 19:14:22 nyef, exactly 19:14:24 How does someone that has been lisping for 20 years take it? 19:14:32 *tmh* gets a gun 19:14:44 parodyoflanguage: it's not so much newbie hostile as it has high expectations of newbies. 19:14:45 tmh: I expect that most of them don't hang out on IRC. 19:15:06 tmh they hang out on cll ! 19:15:15 *tmh* chuckles 19:15:31 tmh: once you're tired enough, you invent a new language and disclaim having had any relationship with lisp before. 19:15:33 *trebor_h`* being a novice, has to say people here are very very helpful to novices 19:15:42 parodyoflanguage: it's an extremely helpful channel, but you probably won't get things thrown at you that are extremely obvious, or things that a simple reference would answer for you (which is why the hyperspec gets linked so much). See it as an advantage -- it helps you build up the ability to find your own answers :) 19:15:44 sykopomp, I don't know. Often that just means assuming that someone knows what they don't know and, hence, came here to ask. 19:16:20 parodyoflanguage: this channel also does not like meta discussions, even though it may look different 19:16:24 *hint* *hint* 19:16:27 parodyoflanguage: I only speak from my experience. I started lisping last summer, and this channel has been incredibly helpful. Actually, I pretty much started programming a few months before then :) 19:16:38 cads [n=max@c-71-56-69-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:39 our beyesian f-wit detectors are tuned with decades of input data :P 19:17:08 sykopomp, okay, thanks for the feedback. I'll reserve judgment then. 19:17:18 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:17:38 RTFM is better than holding people's hand, for sure! 19:18:02 *schme* goes back to beating mcclim with a stick. 19:18:06 parodyoflanguage: good luck, have fun :) 19:18:07 H4ns, fair enough. But in my defense, I only made one such statement and you guys were basically continuing the discussion without me :) 19:18:20 #lisp is better to serve with a portion of PCL 19:18:32 stassats: what about minion and clhs? :) 19:18:35 Well, I just started reading ANSI Common Lisp. 19:18:49 sykopomp: well, minion can send to pcl, luckily 19:19:11 minion: tell sykopomp about that-dead-sexy-book 19:19:12 sykopomp: direct your attention towards that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:19:25 that's the best sym-name I've seen :) 19:19:37 parodyoflanguage: ANSI CL has some issues, particularly stylistic. Graham has a funny way of coding CL, and dislikes some things in CL, like LOOP and CLOS :-\ 19:19:57 if pcl is "the" manual, successful lisp is the quick-start-reference ;) 19:20:06 Graham is famous for having changed his mind about keyword arguments in CL. 19:20:13 poor loop :( 19:20:21 sykopomp: not liking LOOP isn't that uncommon 19:20:36 sykopomp, yeah, someone on #gnu didn't like ansi cl either. But lots of good reviews on Amazon. But I have a couple other ebooks on this system as well. 19:20:45 dlowe: that is very true. 19:20:50 also, multiple nested if with progns 19:20:53 sykopomp, care to explain about the "funny way of coding CL"? 19:21:05 not traditional 19:21:05 minion: Tell parodyoflanguage about graham crackers? 19:21:08 graham crackers link anyone 19:21:08 parodyoflanguage: please see graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 19:21:14 *dcrawford* too slow 19:21:17 hahaha 19:21:48 I'd forgotten about nested IFs... that's a particularly nasty idiom. 19:21:51 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C271.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:58 minion, thanks. 19:21:58 np 19:22:00 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-023-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:15 parodyoflanguage: if you like to read less than 200 pages to get an overview maybe "Successful Lisp - How to understand and use common lisp" by d.b. lamkins is worth a try - it is available online, too. 19:22:22 minion passed the turing test yet again, it seems. 19:22:37 minion: successful lisp? 19:22:38 i like lisp... i'm written in it 19:22:40 who said lisp doesn't still do AI :p 19:22:44 bah 19:23:31 trebor_h`, well, now I have three lisp books, I don't think I need another :) 19:23:36 thanks anyway 19:23:37 *rsynnott* vaguely suspects that he does the nested if thing just to annoy people; he can't possibly LIKE it 19:24:24 parodyoflanguage: my personal lisp-book path has been Gentle Intro -> PCL -> PAIP 19:25:00 how can i tell minion that sucessful-lisp is http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/contents.html ? 19:25:10 oh, and AMOP is thrown in there, too (it's a nice way to see what the guts of CLOS look like) 19:25:34 trebor_h`: /msg minion help 19:25:34 trebor_h`: find chandler and ask him 19:25:55 stassats: Nah, it'd be an sd, and that can be added by anyone straight from IRC. 19:26:11 nyef: hmm, not secure! 19:26:34 right, not nearly as secure as the host that minion is running on!1elf 19:26:51 1elf?... 19:27:04 sykopomp: never mind :) 19:27:05 eleven in german 19:27:16 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:27 oh, right :) 19:28:44 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 19:28:50 is adding a link to minion "adding terms"? 19:29:15 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit [Client Quit] 19:30:17 Hello--does anyone know of a simple way with Closure-HTML to simply perform entity substitution on a string, without further parsing? 19:31:11 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-141-212.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:32:29 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@90.137-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:34 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:34:46 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has joined #lisp 19:36:55 do people really use :default-initargs more than :initforms as the Graham Crackers page claims? 19:37:06 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:37:38 dlowe: I don't generally use either. 19:38:01 dlowe: it is keene's wisdom to use :default-initargs instead of :initforms, but i've seen :initforms be used more often. 19:39:12 I've used :initforms more often, but :default-initargs does look easier to read, if less terse 19:39:36 what is the practical difference? 19:39:51 i use :default-initargs only for slots of superclass 19:40:54 Keene says that it makes writing (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((c class) &key initarg &allow-other-keys) (blah blah initarg blah)) easier 19:41:26 I don't use initialize-instance in any way, though, so it doesn't affect me 19:41:28 that's reasonable, I suppose 19:41:42 ice_four [n=ice_four@host217-42-101-191.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:35 Also, it looks like you can specify an :initform without an :initarg 19:42:39 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-33-234.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 19:42:41 -!- fingo_ [n=maxim@69-196-140-78.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:42:47 you can 19:42:51 *rsynnott* does so often 19:42:59 me too, but not with :default-initargs 19:43:47 oh, I wonder what happens if you specify both 19:43:58 default-initargs wins 19:44:14 just like calling make-instance with an initarg 19:44:30 initform is only evaluated when no initarg has been specified 19:44:50 which is one of the "wow" things in clos 19:45:24 <3 CLOS 19:45:25 and default-initarg does something even without it being possible to specify and initarg, then 19:45:29 okay 19:46:48 josh_ [n=josh@69.15.68.93] has joined #lisp 19:47:18 trebor_h`: minion grabs most of its data from cliki... so add your term to cliki. 19:49:01 chessweb [n=chatzill@f048230095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:49:24 hrm .. Keene's argument for :default-initargs does make some sense to me.. i've had to remove :initforms at times. 19:49:46 -!- chessweb [n=chatzill@f048230095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 19:50:34 chessweb [n=chatzill@f048230095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:53:41 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 19:54:52 -!- Atherton [n=atherton@mathesar.kwzs.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:55:47 fualo_ [n=fualo@169.237.219.239] has joined #lisp 19:57:06 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:00:07 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:52 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:37 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 20:01:48 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:05:07 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:05:50 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:06:01 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:08 -!- fualo [n=fualo@d170-106.primero-2.ucdavis.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:06:30 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:06:32 mjf [n=mjf@r6y147.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:06:41 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:14:02 Insidious error. There was a backquote before a comment at the top level. I kept have a problem with a function not getting compiled when I compiled the file. I was missing the quote because it was obscured by the comment. 20:14:08 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:46 Atherton [n=atherton@mathesar.kwzs.be] has joined #lisp 20:15:01 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 20:16:11 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:16:41 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.174.42] has quit ["“I found a security flaw where IE accidentally loses massive amounts of market share every time I launch it.”"] 20:16:46 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 20:18:23 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y147.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 20:18:32 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:18:53 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:19:21 tmh: hah. 20:20:45 -!- pkhuong_ is now known as pkhuong 20:22:02 sykopomp: So, if you're ever wanting to create problems for someone, bury a quote before a comment. The comment will probably obscure the quote just enough so that the person won't see it. 20:22:30 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 20:26:58 good point 20:28:35 -!- KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:34:55 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 20:39:45 -!- chessweb [n=chatzill@f048230095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 20:40:09 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 20:40:46 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 20:41:08 ejs1 [n=eugen@94-248-47-246.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 20:44:15 well, ccl is pretty nice. 20:45:16 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@178.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 20:45:48 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:46:13 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-9-132.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:23 and bootstrapping seems pretty much smoothed out now. 20:49:39 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-0-71.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:04 patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:39 -!- ice_four [n=ice_four@host217-42-101-191.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 20:58:28 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:59:25 thom_ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:15 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:13 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:09:17 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 21:09:44 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:12:06 thom_ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:24 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:16:01 spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 21:17:00 -!- thom_ is now known as underflow 21:20:21 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:22:52 -!- jimi_hendrix [n=jimi__he@unaffiliated/jimihendrix/x-735601] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:26:13 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:30 elurin [n=user@85.99.66.92] has joined #lisp 21:26:35 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 21:27:16 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:27:41 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 21:27:49 rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:27 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host190-245-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 21:31:46 josemanuel [n=josemanu@178.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:32:53 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 21:35:47 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:19 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 21:36:27 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:37:15 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 21:38:36 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:09 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:27 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-059-022-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:42:09 hi #lisp, I'm a newb and I'm interested in doing a project to better learn lisp. I've thought that a logfile statistics visualizer would be a good start, so I'm wondering about graphics libraries in lisp 21:42:50 Have you considered using something like graphviz instead? 21:43:10 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:43:57 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 21:44:11 nyef: how were you thinking logfile info can be put in graph form? 21:44:34 vecto may be an option 21:44:36 minion: vecto? 21:44:37 vecto: Vecto is a graphics library that uses cl-vectors and ZPNG to draw vector graphics to PNG files. http://www.cliki.net/vecto 21:44:39 bah 21:45:21 stassats: no higher level stats graphics libs? 21:45:22 aren't there some charting libraries? 21:45:36 fualo_: What I'm suggesting is that you find an existing program for doing the graphics given some input, and use lisp to generate that input from the log file. 21:45:56 minion: adw-charting? 21:45:57 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``adw-charting''. 21:46:00 ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 21:46:07 http://common-lisp.net/project/adw-charting/ 21:46:26 oh awesome thanks stassats and nyef 21:46:40 not as pretty as R graphics, but hey 21:47:05 Feel free to spruce them up as your second project. :-P 21:47:26 nyef: R like graphics in lisp would really be a good addition 21:48:29 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:50:40 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:50:48 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:29 jak3 [n=cano@c-66-177-236-251.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:53 dat [n=dthomp@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 22:00:13 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:14 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:00:25 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connection] 22:11:24 josh_ [n=josh@69.15.68.93] has joined #lisp 22:13:44 Anyone aware of a straightforward way to get at the information that ifconfig returns on most systems - the kernel network interfaces data (maybe buried in SBCL somewhere?)? 22:14:10 there's not one 22:14:17 Sure there is. 22:14:20 There's two. 22:14:22 At least. 22:14:25 ? 22:14:39 Method one: run-program ifconfig and parse the results. 22:14:40 no, there are ways, none of them straightforward 22:14:45 -!- schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:15 Method two: Find out how ifconfig gets its information and do that (on linux, it's a netlink socket, isn't it?) 22:15:31 yeah 22:15:32 it's different on every system 22:15:35 have fun with that one 22:15:37 okay... makes sense... thx 22:17:08 Alternately, it rather depends on -which- data you want. 22:17:29 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:36 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-45-60.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:52 you could use a binding to pcap 22:18:07 For example, there are few application domains that need to know the interrupt and base address for eth0, or that how many packets have had transmission errors. 22:18:11 fairly portable, quite a lot of detail there 22:18:18 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:59 It's also not common to need to know the mac address, netmask, or broadcast address. 22:19:02 -!- josh_ [n=josh@69.15.68.93] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:19:03 -!- chupish [n=sedwards@waffle.aip.org] has quit ["leaving"] 22:19:29 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:20:06 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:20:29 -!- bhz- [n=rack@cpe-065-190-059-116.triad.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:20:34 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 22:21:13 bhz- [n=rack@cpe-065-190-059-116.triad.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:44 I can do without the mac address, netmask, etc. - a pcap binding seems like a reasonable solution - any suggestions (cliki lists plokami and pcap)? 22:22:20 What's left, the interface name and IP address? 22:22:34 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:22:39 plokami is pretty good 22:22:54 pretty much... the other data is secondary... 22:23:31 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:23:37 I hate libraries, but I'll endorse plokami 22:24:23 I hate libraries with meaningless names. 22:24:42 that's another issue 22:25:33 -!- patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [] 22:25:34 the name is only meaningless if you dont understand greek ;p 22:26:33 -!- schoppen2auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:28:06 So it's a library to build marine animal and space monster simulations? 22:29:32 no its for packet capture 22:29:41 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 22:29:59 Funny, from the name, I'd have thought it was a portable lisp god simulator or something. 22:30:29 *housel* consults his Koine Greek lexicon 22:30:35 it was originally designed to be part of xtapodi 22:30:49 ... Something to do with feet? 22:30:56 <_death> hmm, it seems that packets sent to swank using `process-send-string' have incorrect checksums.. can anyone verify? (Emacs 22.2.1) 22:31:08 plokami - tentacle 22:31:12 xtapodi - octopus 22:32:13 "Day of the Plokami" doesn't have quite the same ring to it. 22:32:18 xristos: In Greek? 22:32:38 yes 22:32:47 Mhm. 22:33:44 what kind of greek? 22:33:45 <_death> oh, tx checksumming offload 22:34:12 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:35:34 common greek 22:36:46 is there greek 1.5? 22:37:01 no, but there's an 0.1, 0.5, 0.6 22:42:22 jdelgado [n=jdelgado@192.Red-88-24-152.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:40 -!- jdelgado [n=jdelgado@192.Red-88-24-152.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 22:46:34 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:48:27 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 22:54:26 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-023-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [""Gone to sleep""] 22:54:27 (or an alpha and beta version, har) 22:55:22 Im using SBCL with slime, and I have the * prompt rather than the CL-USER prompt 22:55:26 any ideas why? 22:56:16 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf8d3.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:56:24 fualo_: put (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in your .emacs 22:56:24 the repl isn't loaded by default in new slime versions 22:56:57 sykopomp: I have it - I have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-fancy-inspector)) 22:57:20 hm 22:57:35 Ill pastebin my .emacs 22:57:42 fualo pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74619 22:58:16 and with clisp CL-USER is there 22:58:34 I don't care particularly, but I was told that not having CL-USER is a sign something isnt working well 22:58:46 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 22:59:05 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:00:32 how much time will humanity waste until slime-repl is loaded by default again... 23:01:33 -!- mvilleneuve [n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:01:49 I don't know, but I'm considering wasting my part of that time in building a non-slime interface to my lisp. 23:01:54 -!- TDT [n=TDT@113.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:01:56 what was the motivation for not loading it by default? 23:02:42 me? 23:02:45 heh, i personally won't elaborate on that because my opinion would lead to flames... :) 23:02:59 I should load by default 23:03:00 Probably something to do with not everybody needing a slime repl and there not being an easy way to -disable- a contrib. 23:03:01 fualo_: not you :P 23:03:15 sykopomp: see slime-devel archives 23:04:37 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:04:42 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:13 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-12-206.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:27 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 23:12:20 perhaps the slime developers realized it was getting a bit crowded here and so added an extra roadblock to thin the herd 23:16:24 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:37 heh, that would even make some sense if we didn't have to read 10 times a day on various forums the bug reports about missing repl's 23:18:30 attila_lendvai: you haven't combined computed-class with ucw components at some point, have you? 23:18:53 attila_lendvai: specifically, i'd like backtracking to work. 23:19:17 drewc: only partially, meaning that it mixed well until both :computed and :component were used 23:19:26 on the same slot, that is 23:19:58 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:20:25 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 23:20:28 attila_lendvai: great! i don't need that :). Did you just combine the metaclasses or are there gotchas? 23:20:33 i turned off backtracking after the first 1-2 months of our ucw based codebase... 23:20:53 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:21:58 attila_lendvai: you were mostly using 'ajax' though, yeah? I find i don't need backtracking and new frames as much the more ajax-y the applicaiton. 23:23:15 drewc: sent you the code i have, but i don't remember much about it anymore 23:24:22 drewc: yep. but it's not as much about being ajaxy or not than about being more like a webpage or an application. 23:25:35 mitja [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 23:26:27 attila_lendvai: true enough. 23:27:30 attila_lendvai: thanks for the example code. computed-class looks great. 23:27:35 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 23:29:38 our webapps have numerous ways to navigate localized parts of the screen. the browser's big go-back-and-act-like-a-transaction-rollback button is just a crude hammer compared to them, that sometimes randomly hits the holder, too... 23:29:55 drewc: yw 23:30:29 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:05 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:32:20 <_death> fe[nl]ix: around? 23:32:26 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-45-60.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:32:29 t 23:33:42 <_death> fe[nl]ix: is it reasonable to want to remove the IO handlers and close the socket inside a read handler? 23:33:51 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-33-234.ucr.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:33:54 attila_lendvai: in this case i've got a 'wizard' like thing, only there is no set path through it. I'd like the users to be able to use the back button in certain cases that make sense. It might be impossible to get right though :) 23:34:05 _death: yes 23:34:15 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-33-234.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 23:34:45 <_death> fe[nl]ix: then it's problematic, because %dispatch-event doesn't check for a nil handler.. so if I remove the handlers in the read event, and there's also a write event, it errors 23:35:58 as it is, manually doing the constraints is hard enough, and there are two places where they have to be checked. ugly ugly code. 23:36:07 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:36:18 _death: That just means that it's not always reasonable to -do-, even if it is sometimes reasonable to want to do. 23:36:41 dysinger_ [n=tim@166.129.10.171] has joined #lisp 23:37:17 -!- dwave [n=ask@062249178115.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 23:37:29 drewc: all we have in wui is an error page with a "go back to the application" link when the user tries to use the back button... :) everything else is done using a simple wizard logic if it fits or continuations for complex stuff (these continuations are not integrated with wui itself, just driven by the actions the user creates) 23:37:42 <_death> nyef: I would expect that it can be fixed by the dispatcher checking for nil and, if so, not using it as though it was a valid handler 23:38:14 Do you really want to close it if there's pending output, though? 23:38:36 <_death> nyef: it's not pending output, it's just that the socket is available for writing 23:38:57 ... Why do you want to know that if you don't have pending output? 23:39:35 <_death> nyef: heh, it's a workaround for another thing I don't understand 23:39:51 _death: for the moment, a workaround would be to (loop (event-dispatch :one-shot t) (only-remove-your-handlers-now)). I'll look into it tomorrow 23:40:37 <_death> fe[nl]ix: as nyef reminded me, I wanted to set the IO handler for writing only when I have something to write 23:41:46 attila_lendvai: interesting :). How Do you deal with session cloning, if at all? 23:41:51 _death: reasonable thing to want, a bit difficult to do 23:42:03 -!- simonkey [n=simon@89.18.164.214] has left #lisp 23:42:30 <_death> fe[nl]ix: I'm not sure I tried removing and setting it.. maybe that would work, but I tried just re-setting it and iolib signaled an error about the already existing handler 23:43:04 drewc: what do you mean with "session cloning"? oh, maybe separate browser windows in to the same session? we have a frame-id and a frame-index arg in the url for that... 23:43:11 _death: removing then resetting it should work 23:43:26 <_death> fe[nl]ix: ok, cool 23:43:33 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 23:43:35 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:59 attila_lendvai: what does frame-index point to? 23:44:08 let's just say that I don't like epoll. kqueue is much better 23:44:48 drewc: that's just a random number, a one-shot thing to detect the non-serial client-server interaction 23:45:09 ahh gotcha. 23:45:20 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [No route to host] 23:45:58 attila_lendvai: do you create a new frame on every interaction, or only in certain specific cases? 23:46:05 drewc: in wui there's a session (same as in ucw), and a frame (something like a session, garbage collected with timeout, but one for each browser window) 23:46:07 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:46:59 drewc: every (non-ajax) interaction increments the frame-index, open-in-new-window creates a new frame 23:47:32 -!- realtime [i=sabbath@189.72.27.133] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:47:39 realtime [i=sabbath@189.72.27.133] has joined #lisp 23:47:40 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp193.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:48:15 attila_lendvai: you use javascript to tell the difference? 23:48:21 and it can be specified in the entry point definer how much logic you need there. things like :with-session-logic, :with-frame-logic, :ensure-frame, :requires-valid-frame, :with-action-logic, etc 23:49:01 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:01 yep, the client appends a request arg to tell the server that it's waiting for an xml-packaged ajax answer 23:49:49 the usual component based stuff can transparently push down partial or full responses, based on the client or the frame memory usage (sometimes you need to clear those hashtables... :) 23:50:09 where by responses i mean xhtml fragments 23:50:45 right, that you do. That's actually what i'm working on right now, the GC-for-frames-and-sessions. 23:51:04 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 23:52:05 ice4 [n=ice4@host217-42-101-191.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:05 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@dsl027-142-013.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has left #lisp 23:52:20 attila_lendvai: and your big 'go-back-to-application' idea sounds like just the thing for the case of hitting a gc'd frame. thanks again! :) 23:52:46 Pkerown [n=Pkerown@77-101-180-135.cable.ubr08.smal.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:53:29 <_death> fe[nl]ix: seems to work, thanks 23:53:43 drewc: yw 23:54:21 rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:44 hi, i can't find a decent document on mod_lisp for apache, could someone give me a pointer 23:54:59 mait [n=user@genyv.rot.sgsnet.se] has joined #lisp 23:55:05 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.244.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:17 -!- Pkerown [n=Pkerown@77-101-180-135.cable.ubr08.smal.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:55:30 Pkerown [n=Pkerown@77-101-180-135.cable.ubr08.smal.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:55:44 Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-38.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:55:46 -!- tomsw [n=user@d54C1CF97.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:56:07 rullie: what are you trying to do? mod_lisp is just a network protocol and an apache-side implementation. Using it from lisp requires a lisp-side framework. 23:56:24 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-134.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:56:35 drewc: trying to write a Hello World web app 23:56:49 rullie: why do you want to use mod_lisp? 23:56:53 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-113-147.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:57:20 drewc: how else do i write webapp? 23:58:07 rullie: well, you use a framework of some sort. What you probably want is hunchentoot. 23:58:26 minion: tell rullie about hunchentoot 23:58:27 rullie: please look at hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a web server written in Common Lisp and at the same time a toolkit for building dynamic websites. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 23:58:33 -!- Pkerown [n=Pkerown@77-101-180-135.cable.ubr08.smal.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 23:58:42 thanks 23:59:06 rullie: when you want more than hello world, you might also take a look at UCW 23:59:09 minion: ucw? 23:59:10 ucw: UnCommon Web is a Common Lisp web application development framework. http://www.cliki.net/ucw 23:59:41 thanks 23:59:54 *nyef* has the horrible suspicion that he might need SBCL/Win32 threads within the next month. 23:59:56 drewc: so would i still need mod_lisp with this?