00:09:56 -!- jpcooper [n=test@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:10 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:18 sellout: ping 00:12:13 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 00:12:39 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-238-145.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:14:06 -!- jfrancis1 [n=ubuntu@72.14.227.1] has left #lisp 00:15:03 -!- tomsw [n=user@d54C1CF97.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 00:16:51 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:17:15 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:24:02 ayrnieu [n=julianfo@22.sub-70-196-201.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:09 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4BF12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:27:32 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-9-3.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:39 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:31:27 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 00:32:55 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4A836.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:57 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C5FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:59 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.2] has joined #lisp 00:36:28 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.229.88] has left #lisp 00:38:13 -!- djgera [n=djgera@host200.200-117-152.telecom.net.ar] has left #lisp 00:41:09 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:41:49 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:45:43 how would I compile the hello world program with sbcl? I want to learn how to compile lisp and be able to move away from the REPL 00:48:49 stay with the repl! it's your friend 00:49:04 -!- patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [] 00:49:18 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-46-146.sqpk.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Success] 00:49:38 but if I want to develop a semi-sentient butler computer program, it will probably be best binary-compiled, no? 00:49:51 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 00:50:21 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-155-84.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:50:23 i'm sure that you are using "binary-compiled" in the wrong sense 00:50:26 but it is possible 00:50:34 minion: executables 00:50:35 executables: creating executables: Newcomers to Lisp often ask how to "create an executable" from their Lisp program. http://www.cliki.net/creating%20executables 00:51:05 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 00:51:29 stassats`: I probably am, not a CS person, just physics, so, I kinda don't know all the proper lingo 00:56:57 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-51-199.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [] 01:00:13 is there a way to import all internal symbols of a certain package, or to include certain symbols of a different package only for a few files? I'm trying to run fiveam tests inside the main package, but I don't want to include fiveam in the defpackage... 01:00:45 hikoz [n=hikoz@27.183.244.43.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:01:22 -!- wedgeV_ [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 01:01:38 yes 01:03:32 -!- hikoz [n=hikoz@27.183.244.43.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 01:03:53 okay 01:04:22 (defpackage ... (:import-from "PACKAGE" #.(loop for x being the internal symbols in "PACKAGE" collect x))) or something 01:08:05 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:09:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:58 s/internal /present-/ 01:10:23 Wouldn't that also pick up the external symbols, though? 01:10:58 unless (eq (find-symbol x "FOO") :external) or some such? 01:11:24 but I think he wants the external ones, too 01:11:30 I do :) 01:11:32 present n. 2. (of a symbol in a package) being accessible in that package directly, rather than being inherited from another package 01:11:47 maybe he wants the inherited ones, too 01:16:10 aundro_ [n=aundro@7.114-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 01:16:28 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:20:23 -!- Ioannes [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has left #lisp 01:20:39 Ioannes [n=Bevinvan@XPLR-TS-10-VAN-67-201-133-74.barrettxplore.com] has joined #lisp 01:21:11 -!- Ioannes is now known as Liempt 01:23:21 hm. That doesn't quite compile, actually. I'll mess around with it, though, that loop certainly gets the symbols I want. 01:23:56 sykopomp: the loop returns a list. (:import-from "FOO" . #.(loop ...)) 01:24:45 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:25:24 pkhuong: oh. That's right, thank you. I misread clhs (I thought it said {symbol-names 01:25:30 }) 01:26:40 yay. 1.0.24.48.interrupts compiles here now. 01:27:14 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:27:21 -!- kg4qxk [n=kg4qxk@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:28:31 bohanlon [n=kg4qxk@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:54 -!- aundro [n=aundro@139.217-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:19 -!- aundro_ [n=aundro@7.114-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:33:53 aundro_ [n=aundro@124.190-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 01:35:01 kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:35:51 -!- aundro_ [n=aundro@124.190-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:36:16 -!- mrSpec [n=noOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["c Ya !"] 01:37:24 gcopenhaver [n=greg@c-71-206-116-36.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:33 aundro_ [n=aundro@11.96-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 01:44:21 aundro__ [n=aundro@5.191-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 01:45:37 -!- aundro_ [n=aundro@11.96-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:47:13 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:49:54 Draggor1 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:51:06 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-238-145.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 01:51:25 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:51:26 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-238-145.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:51:34 -!- Draggor1 is now known as Draggor 01:52:24 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:00:38 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.246.120] has quit ["He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abys"] 02:05:22 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:06:41 where can I find cl-delico? 02:07:54 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:08:25 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 02:08:42 jollygood: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-walker/darcs/cl-delico 02:08:56 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:09:08 fe[nl]ix: thanks 02:09:31 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-016-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:35 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:18 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:18:24 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@ppp7-38.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:22:18 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:25:49 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 02:26:23 yoonkn [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.71] has joined #lisp 02:26:34 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:29:35 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:34:57 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-46-6.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:29 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [] 02:36:38 -!- aundro__ [n=aundro@5.191-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:38:12 aundro__ [n=aundro@210.179-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 02:38:48 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-2de7afbe9d2893ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:39:35 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.207] has joined #lisp 02:40:31 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:41:24 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4AE1D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:42:55 aundro_ [n=aundro@132.191-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 02:43:22 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.207] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:44:15 -!- aundro__ [n=aundro@210.179-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:45:12 aundro__ [n=aundro@223.103-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 02:45:13 -!- aundro_ [n=aundro@132.191-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:45:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A09E0.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:46:04 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 02:48:57 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-211-250-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:51:06 aundro_ [n=aundro@42.190-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 02:53:26 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:55:53 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:06 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:25 -!- aundro_ [n=aundro@42.190-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:58:39 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:59:04 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4BF12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:01:57 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:04 Any opinions of Weblock? 03:04:28 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-2318cb4f19223671] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:04:50 aundro_ [n=aundro@146.176-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 03:07:34 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:07:41 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:07:46 -!- aundro__ [n=aundro@223.103-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:08:53 atmaweapon [n=atma@ip70-176-248-217.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:33 aundro__ [n=aundro@204.129-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 03:09:56 hi. how do you set the value of a user-defined struct to another user-defined struct? 03:10:26 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:11:03 atmaweapon: Everything (almost) in CL is a reference. Just (setf foo other-struct). 03:13:25 aundro [n=aundro@22.130-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 03:14:37 perfect. thx 03:14:39 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:46 (which also means that setting the value of *a struct* doesn't make sense) 03:16:12 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:16:55 you mean, because it's really setting the ref? 03:17:30 Essentially, yes. 03:17:43 And a struct itself is a collection of further references. 03:18:42 -!- aundro__ [n=aundro@204.129-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:19:13 so does that mean you can't create a struct containing other structs until those structs are created, first? (ie. so u can set the references to them) 03:19:33 ... No. 03:19:53 You are able to modify references. 03:20:47 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:22:02 aundro__ [n=aundro@32.110-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 03:23:47 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:04 -!- aundro_ [n=aundro@146.176-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:24:24 maybe i phrased bad. say u have a point structure (x, y, z) and want to create a triangle structure (p1, p2, p3). is there a way to set p1, p2, p3 to a point "on-the-fly", or do i always have to (setf (point-x,y,z p1,p2,p3 (make-point)) first (when I have a reference to it)? 03:25:30 I'm afraid I'm not understanding your rephrased question. 03:26:05 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:26:45 Wow, do I need to hunt around debian's non-free section to find where all my missing documentation is? 03:27:04 Sorry...wrong channel 03:27:10 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.161.132] has joined #lisp 03:27:14 is there a way to do (setf (triangle-pX tri) (new-point-created-here))? 03:27:28 parodyoflanguage: Oh, probably. The debian people decided that the GFDL was non-free, didn't they? 03:27:32 atmaweapon: Yes, of course. 03:28:00 nyef, indeed they have 03:28:10 ok, i figured u could. what's that syntax? :) 03:28:31 atmaweapon: Would you believe, (setf (triangle-pX tri) (new-point-created-here))? 03:28:47 Probably something like (setf (triangle-p1 triangle) (make-point)); what do you think MAKE-POINT does? 03:29:09 pkhuong: I think you've made your point. :-P 03:29:13 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:30:47 ah, ok, i was trying to add a param/identifier, gotcha :) 03:31:13 last q: how do u access newly created point created this way? 03:31:47 atmaweapon: if you described your goal with the snippet you're working on, you might get more useful help. 03:32:13 Right, I'm up to four patches to commit early next cycle. 03:32:25 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:32:27 Mostly to do with genesis and cold-init. 03:32:48 just trying to get familiar with syntax. 03:33:39 l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 03:33:42 in this case, i want to set tri's point-x and point-y 03:34:23 atmaweapon: sure you don't want to initialise the triangle right from the start? 03:36:20 well, i did that before (setf (point-x p1) 5), (setf (triangle-p1 triangle) p1). but now trying to learn syntax of other ways to do such things (for quick&rough testing/coding) 03:37:11 -!- aundro [n=aundro@22.130-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:17 I'd use something like (make-triangle :p1 (make-point :x 5)) 03:38:30 perfect! exactly what I was looking for :) 03:38:40 sorry for the dumb q's 03:38:49 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.2] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:39:07 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:39:19 thx pkhuong, nyef 03:39:50 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:40:08 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 03:40:17 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:13 So, here's a silly thought: Everything in !cold-init prior to enabling internal errors could be done via the cold-toplevels mechanism. 03:42:51 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 03:43:36 (Well, aside from that setf at the beginning, which could be handled by setting the values directly in genesis.) 03:45:36 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-94-66.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:45:39 Good morning. 03:45:43 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:45 Hello beach. 03:46:40 mornin' beach 03:47:29 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:48:02 In fact, one helper function, and everything prior to first GC could be set up that way, modulo the /show junk. 03:50:55 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:54:55 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:56:53 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:01:32 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 04:01:46 aundro_ [n=aundro@5.156-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 04:08:19 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 04:09:41 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:10:13 -!- etate [n=malune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:11:17 themachine [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:23 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4AE1D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:11:51 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4AE1D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 04:11:58 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:13:27 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:13:44 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.161.132] has quit [] 04:15:37 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:15:37 -!- themachine is now known as parodyoflanguage 04:18:43 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:53 -!- aundro__ [n=aundro@32.110-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:19:07 -!- bsmntbombdood is now known as bsmntbombgirl 04:20:23 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:22:54 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120121]"] 04:23:54 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:00 why do you need a # sign in defpackage as in (:use #:cl) ? 04:29:45 You don't. 04:30:39 #: causes the reader to return an un-interned symbol... sometimes you might want that, but mostly you don't. 04:30:53 That spot is treated as a string designator, and somebody didn't want to use "CL" or to clutter up the keyword package with the symbol :cl. 04:31:36 for :cl that's probably kinda a lost cause 04:32:03 but a laudable goal in at least. 04:32:22 eh, remove some words from that... 04:32:26 Not necessarily laudable. 04:32:39 ok I guess the question is, when should I use it? 04:32:44 -!- l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit ["switching to decrufted kernel"] 04:32:49 Use it when you need it. 04:33:07 It's fairly common for the :export list, for example. 04:33:36 (Although I've taken, as have many others, to just using the "SYMBOL-NAMES" directly.) 04:34:21 I see 04:34:30 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:35:29 Essentially, using an uninterned symbol as a string designator is a "cheap" method to be able to use lowercase source text and have it end up as uppercase. 04:36:30 also a way of being independent of reader case variations such as "modern mode". 04:40:47 asdf25 [n=asdf25@pool-71-178-247-100.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:29 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:41:29 gotcha 04:41:47 so, is Xach being cheap, or making it easy for us newbs? http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 04:41:50 :) 04:50:31 *tic* wakes up 04:51:14 felideon, like nyef said, you might not want to intern the symbol in the current package. 04:51:41 gotcha 04:53:25 aundro__ [n=aundro@83.158-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 04:56:44 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 05:00:33 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:05:09 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:05:31 -!- bsmntbombgirl [n=gavin@97-118-112-97.hlrn.qwest.net] has left #lisp 05:05:40 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:07:14 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 05:10:34 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:41 -!- aundro_ [n=aundro@5.156-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:37 -!- gcopenhaver [n=greg@c-71-206-116-36.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:20:33 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D0A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:57 -!- thom_logn is now known as undeflow 05:21:02 I'm trying to require an asdf system I created, but I get an error message saying "Could not REQUIRE DAVENBLOG: circularity detected. Please check 05:21:02 your configuration." 05:21:06 -!- undeflow is now known as underflow 05:21:16 (davenblog isthe name of my package/system) 05:21:26 how can I debug or find out what is causing the circularity? 05:21:31 sounds like you have a circularity 05:22:33 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1CC74.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:39 how do I resolve that? 05:24:43 benny [n=benny@i577A0839.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:25:13 oops nvm 05:25:17 fixed it. 05:26:18 good night 05:26:22 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:27:05 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-58-237.man.east.verizon.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 05:27:57 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:28:16 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-238-145.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 05:29:12 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:36 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 05:49:17 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.174.42] has joined #lisp 05:49:41 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 05:53:34 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:09 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:59:45 sykopomp: what happened to the Climacs hacking week? 06:00:35 beach: it went on the backburner... I had a busy january, followed by a 'strange mood' week. I still want to do the hack week, though. 06:00:49 OK 06:04:27 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:06:07 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 06:06:41 binghe [n=binghe@121.70.198.228] has joined #lisp 06:08:20 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:08:44 -!- asdf25 [n=asdf25@pool-71-178-247-100.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:10:57 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:14:07 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:14:23 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 06:14:27 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.134.153] has joined #lisp 06:16:43 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 06:17:30 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0839.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:17:44 -!- binghe [n=binghe@121.70.198.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:17:55 joachim [n=j@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:21:54 elurin [n=user@85.99.66.92] has joined #lisp 06:24:20 -!- joachim [n=j@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 06:25:06 aundro_ [n=aundro@30.118-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 06:26:29 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:27:34 -!- aundro__ [n=aundro@83.158-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:28:44 -!- aundro_ [n=aundro@30.118-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:34:42 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:36:04 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 06:42:52 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.35.185] has joined #lisp 06:43:01 good morning to all 06:43:09 hello adityo 06:43:21 hi, beach! 06:43:26 hey tic 06:43:43 beach, done with the article? 06:44:13 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 06:44:23 Yeah, that one. I need to work on one or two more for next week. 06:44:44 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:45:04 Heh. 06:51:31 beach, on what topics? 06:51:46 ELS 2009 06:53:46 Okay, what are the articles going to be about? 06:54:26 One is about Lisp software for sound-processing, with zorgzorg2. 06:54:39 The other one I don't know yet :) 06:56:46 HG` [n=wells@118.82.169.165] has joined #lisp 06:56:47 Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has joined #lisp 06:57:11 I'm sure you'll come up with something interesting! 06:57:36 That's not the problem. The problem is the time to write it down. 06:57:49 I should try to make something come out of the Gothenburg Lisp User Group. But there are precious few Lispers around. Maybe I could have a Lisp intro lecture? 06:58:18 beach, yeah, time's always in short supply. I keep wishing me two extra hours a day for my birthday, but I never get it :/ 06:58:19 Sure, sounds like a good idea. 06:58:47 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087DC6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:52 hello Krystof 06:58:57 morning 06:59:17 Did you send in the stuff to Document Numérique? 07:00:23 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:01:24 Not yet 07:01:38 I don't have access to Word or printers here 07:01:45 Ah, OK. 07:01:54 I used OpenOffice. 07:02:14 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 07:03:48 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:07:40 -!- HG` [n=wells@118.82.169.165] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:09:01 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 07:09:49 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-121-51.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:51 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 07:17:34 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:22:24 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:24:46 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:30:29 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:32:44 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:34:55 cky [n=cky@202-74-211-197.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:36:18 -!- rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:37:24 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 07:38:51 I know I've asked this before, but I have a bad memory: Something akin to Genshi (HTML templating language), but for Lisp? It has some code constructs, like
  • plus the ability to run code/do variable substitution as ${foo.bar} or ${baz(quux)} on a dictionary passed to it. 07:40:02 But most of all, it's plain HTML (plus the markup) stored in _separate files_. 07:40:28 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-46-6.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:40:54 good morning 07:41:08 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:42:01 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:46:36 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 07:47:15 mvilleneuve [n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:23 good morning 07:51:06 tic: html-template? 07:51:26 it has its own little templating DSL builtin and i hated it for that 07:51:32 cl-who wins, for me :-) 07:51:54 minion: html-template? 07:51:55 html-template: HTML-TEMPLATE is a Library to use templates much like Perl's HTML::Template. http://www.cliki.net/html-template 07:55:02 Thanks, fusss. 07:56:07 Mannerisky [n=Manneris@24-117-137-23.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:39 Ugh. I need to create CL-Genshi. :) 07:58:51 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 08:00:10 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-77-55.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 08:00:37 i do my layout management via CSS-rewriting ajax calls (or something impressive-sounding like that) 08:01:18 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 08:02:57 well aren't you fancy? 08:03:17 Mixing code and layout has always been a world of pain for me. 08:03:50 do your own "rendering", with :-P 08:04:31 *runs away screaming* 08:04:32 actually, i need to re-re-re-redesign a site right now and my fruitless effort with graphics software so far looks like this http://www.renderedred.com/media/2008_analoguephotoshop.jpg 08:04:54 Hah. :D 08:06:38 fusss_ [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-121-51.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:38 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-121-51.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:06:40 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 08:10:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-77-55.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has left #lisp 08:11:45 A socket server (written in SBCL) threw an exception and I pressed `a' to abort from the process. I dropped down into the REPL (thus the program closed too) but `netstat -plunt' tells me that SBCL still listens on the same port. How can I make SBCL close that socket? 08:12:51 oh boy. is the sbcl still running? 08:13:16 Yup. I am at the REPL. 08:13:18 *fusss* the unwind-protect form in #+sbcl sections of every socket code is used for this. 08:13:26 you need to close the fd-stream 08:13:29 hold on 08:13:54 mega1 [n=mega@3e70cb0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:14:11 I have unwind-protect around my socket stuff too, but that does seem to not get triggered. 08:14:29 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 08:14:46 Hrm... In incoming connections routines, not it listening socket part. Let me fix that. 08:17:40 are you sure the socket isn't just in CLOSE_WAIT state? 08:18:59 Krystof: `netstat -plunt' tells me that it is in LISTEN state. But it appears to be my mistake, I close the incoming request socket, but not the socket server is listening on. 08:20:39 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:23:22 Hey 08:27:13 http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/CompileFarm 08:27:16 -!- danlentz [n=dan@c-68-46-6-17.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:27:35 aundro [n=aundro@86.103-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 08:27:36 seems that they may provide access to a number of platforms 08:28:04 with the sourceforge compile farm gone, is there any other option? 08:29:48 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E78D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:19 mega1: we had one in progeny linux, but company folded. 08:31:24 intel offered a free itanic shell account which you could compile on when i used it (circa 2003) 08:32:59 case1267 [n=chatzill@S01060014d144f3c3.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:27 rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:35:27 -!- aundro [n=aundro@86.103-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:36:00 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:36:06 borism [n=boris@195-50-211-250-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 08:36:23 aundro [n=aundro@114.187-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 08:39:25 aundro_ [n=aundro@35.104-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 08:40:24 mega1, this is with regular sbcl 1.0.24 - http://paste.lisp.org/display/73245 08:40:52 looks similiar 08:41:11 <_8david> fusss: itanic isn't exactly relevant for SBCL 08:41:13 -!- aundro_ [n=aundro@35.104-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:41:14 oh, I wouldn't have expected it to be in a shape so bad. 08:41:15 <_8david> A compile farm covering x86, AMD64, PowerPC, SPARC, Alpha, MIPS, HPPA would be nice. 08:41:32 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:47 I sent a request to the gcc guys, we'll see how it goes. 08:42:10 aundro_ [n=aundro@5.181-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 08:42:58 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:44:06 thanks, milanj 08:44:20 indeed, it is very similar 08:46:04 np 08:46:20 rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:47:41 <_8david> doesn't qemu cover most of the targets? except for hppa and alpha, according to their status page. 08:49:08 <_8david> If so, no hardware donation or shell account would be required, only a one-time Linux installation into qemu images, which SBCL developers could download from, say, c-l.net whenever they need them. 08:50:12 <_8david> Tests for more OS combinations could be more difficult. I imagine that FreeBSD would be as easy to install in a VM as Linux, but Mac OS might already be tricky. 08:50:15 *_8david* is curious, because he'd want to re-test the relocation patch before comitting it 08:50:47 _8david: darwin should do for sbcl testing, as no apple frameworks are required to compile and test it, right? 08:51:32 <_8david> good question. I don't know. 08:51:50 i'm pretty sure about that. 08:52:13 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:53:03 the problem with darwin is that setting it up is a relatively involved process, so it makes sense to do that once only and then distribute a vm image of some sort. 08:55:31 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 08:56:23 KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:43 -!- aundro [n=aundro@114.187-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:56:54 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:12 eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:05 qemu has a number of images for download: http://bellard.org/qemu/download.html 08:58:28 unfortunately, it does not cover everything sbcl runs on 09:01:22 How can I re-signal a condition asis? 09:01:31 -!- Xlas [n=28@c-4b3e70d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 09:02:51 <_8david> vy: using SIGNAL, for example 09:02:59 <_8david> Resignaling of conditions is usually the wrong thing to do is CL though. Better not handle it in the first place. 09:04:16 vy: if you don't know if you really want to handle a certain condition until run time, use handler-bind instead of handler-case 09:04:43 Xlas [n=28@c-4b3e70d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:05:13 A stream size can be invalidated in two ways: 1) Program iteratively consumes all available input limited by content-length header, 2) content-length is shorter than the available input. In the latter case, I need to re-signal the condition. 09:05:17 Beeet [n=stathis@ppp7-38.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:05:33 vy: no, you just need to not handle it 09:06:12 H4ns: So how will the program exit from reading loop? 09:06:34 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:06:34 vy: you could use GO 09:06:59 vy: try macroexpanding a handler-case form to see what it really does. 09:08:26 But how will the program know the wrapper content-length. Package arrives in {TOTAL-L, {L0, {K0, V0}}, {L1, {K1, V1}}, ...}. I just pass the {{L0, {K0, V0}}, {L1, {K1, V1}}, ...} part of the message to the program after defining TOTAL-L bound on the stream. Program doesn't know about its limitations. 09:09:26 OTOH, IMHO program shouldn't be concerned about TOTAL-L. 09:10:05 vy: this is going to far into what you are doing. we were discussing whether resignaling a condition is good, and i am trying to explain that if you can use handler-case, you can also use handler-bind and you can decide in the binding whether you want to handle the condition (by taking a non-local exit) or not handle it (giving another handler bound earlier a chance to handle the condition). 09:12:54 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:14:49 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:18:33 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:21:59 I see your point more clear after macroexpanding HANDLER-CASE, and now I start to think it would be much simple to pass TOTAL-L information to the function instead of doing wrapper condition hacks. 09:22:28 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:22:36 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:23:16 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 09:27:59 -!- underflow [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:30:59 aundro__ [n=aundro@160.156-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 09:35:54 Considering this message format: {REC-L[2], {KEY-L[4], VAL-L[4], KEY[*], VAL[*]}, {KEY-L[4], VAL-L[4], KEY[*], VAL[*]}, ...}. Isn't it conflicting to reserve 4+4=8 bytes to sub-record lengths while the total length is of size 2 bytes? 09:47:09 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:47:32 Grilinctus [n=Aankhen@122.163.174.42] has joined #lisp 09:47:33 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:47:50 -!- aundro_ [n=aundro@5.181-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:49:51 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:51:08 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-11-112.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:51:55 adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.54.215] has joined #lisp 09:53:21 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@ppp7-38.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:55:29 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 09:58:50 -!- aundro__ [n=aundro@160.156-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:04:35 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.35.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:06:24 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.174.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:07:29 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:11:18 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:13:00 -!- meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:13:04 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-121-51.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 10:13:09 meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 10:13:54 -!- case1267 [n=chatzill@S01060014d144f3c3.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008121621]"] 10:14:21 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 10:15:06 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-10-225.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:16:56 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:17:10 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:18 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:19:53 tic: You could also see YACLML's TAL stuff. 10:19:58 -!- Grilinctus is now known as Aankhen`` 10:20:56 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 10:21:01 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0E78D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:30 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 10:22:17 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:23:10 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:25:21 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E78D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:25:23 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns 10:25:26 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:27:03 sandGorgon [n=user@122.162.142.236] has joined #lisp 10:30:53 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:32:57 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-204-206.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:41:05 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.66.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:43:29 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:45:27 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:53:13 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.134.153] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:53:40 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-157-62.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 10:53:48 ASeventhS [n=ASeventh@cpe-76-175-139-1.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:54:17 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 11:00:18 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 11:00:57 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:01:50 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:59 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:05:00 LostMonarch [n=roby@host91-182-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:10:45 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:13:29 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:14:47 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 11:18:33 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:20:26 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:04 robyonrails [n=roby@host190-245-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:26:37 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:27:01 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:27:28 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:27:43 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 11:28:14 binarin` [n=user@62.105.145.214] has joined #lisp 11:35:19 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:35:27 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host91-182-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:38:19 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has quit ["Disconnecting from stoned server."] 11:38:19 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:24 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:41:27 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:45:10 -!- binarin [n=user@62.105.145.214] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:46:46 -!- UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:47:13 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-157-62.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:47:28 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:05 Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has joined #lisp 11:53:39 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:53:43 clim define-application-frame 11:53:43 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/28-2.html#_1480 11:55:01 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:57:14 clim defun 11:57:14 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for defun. 11:57:33 clhs defun 11:57:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm 11:57:49 ty 11:58:58 ywlcm 12:02:53 hello spiaggia 12:07:25 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:12:57 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 12:13:18 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has left #lisp 12:13:30 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:14:29 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:15:13 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 12:16:56 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 12:17:41 X-Scale [i=email@89-180-72-88.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 12:18:38 snafuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:41 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.33.136] has joined #lisp 12:18:46 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-10-225.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 12:18:46 EXetoC [i=EXetoC@c-c791e155.1422-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:18:53 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:19:40 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 12:26:23 Hey mvilleneuve. What's up? 12:27:05 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-169-100.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 12:27:10 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 12:28:30 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Disconnecting from stoned server."] 12:28:47 bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:44 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 12:32:38 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.54.215] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:34:51 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:35:13 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:35:57 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:08 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-181-189.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:51:47 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:52:15 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:53:54 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.137.16] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:54:06 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.137.16] has joined #lisp 12:58:40 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:08:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:10 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-211-250-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:53 adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.33.136] has joined #lisp 13:12:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:12:34 lispm [n=joswig@e177126037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:23 -!- meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:13:30 meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 13:13:32 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:13:43 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 13:13:50 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:21:09 Liam1 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:21:31 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:21:45 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.33.136] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:23:45 -!- meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:24:12 meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 13:24:29 borism [n=boris@195-50-211-250-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 13:24:36 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:58 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:28:00 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:28:32 basilisk [n=anuj@210.212.55.3] has joined #lisp 13:29:31 -!- basilisk [n=anuj@210.212.55.3] has quit [Client Quit] 13:30:21 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:26 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:33:31 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:25 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 13:34:45 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 13:37:43 -!- xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39:28 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:40:01 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 13:40:54 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:28 ! 13:42:32 !? 13:42:32 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:43:10 ozy| [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:32 spiaggia: not much... looking for a laptop, and still working on the company project. 13:44:18 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 13:44:30 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-172.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:44:40 spiaggia: how about yourself? 13:47:30 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:29 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:32 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:48:56 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:49:06 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:49:57 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:58 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 13:51:10 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:52:14 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 13:58:35 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:58:39 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:00:02 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:00:10 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:19 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:00:52 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:01:39 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 14:02:29 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.33.136] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:03:15 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:04:03 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087DC6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 14:05:49 -!- meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:06:54 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:07:07 -!- vimacs` [n=user@c-24-60-189-202.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:35 meingbg [n=user@remote5.student.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 14:07:45 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:02 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087DC6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:19 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp193.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:12:20 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:12:28 gcopenhaver [n=greg@c-71-206-116-36.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 14:15:10 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-181-189.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 14:15:28 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:15:40 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:57 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:19:08 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.134.153] has joined #lisp 14:19:40 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:22:29 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:49 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:23:24 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 14:24:09 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.134.153] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:24:32 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:14 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.134.153] has joined #lisp 14:25:20 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:25:35 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:25:58 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 14:28:10 -!- Liam1 [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:30:03 kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has joined #lisp 14:34:07 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 14:35:56 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Client Quit] 14:36:08 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:36:09 drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:37:03 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:37:09 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:40:36 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:42:00 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 14:42:23 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0E78D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:43:27 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:45:50 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 14:47:41 -!- drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:00 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc26.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:48:52 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:26 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-58-237.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:36 G'morning all. 14:50:49 hi 14:51:34 hello nyef 14:52:14 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:54:40 -!- rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:55:00 Hunh. Been a relatively quiet night, it seems. 14:56:42 -!- ozy| is now known as ozy` 14:57:20 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 14:58:12 cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.24.188] has joined #lisp 15:00:41 pjb: thanks last time for comp.lang.lisp archive link. it was from 1990 till 1997. where can i found these archives for 1997 till 2002 (i was trying google groups but the oldest articles for some search queries were only till 2002) 15:01:08 chupish [n=sedwards@waffle.aip.org] has joined #lisp 15:01:53 -!- EXetoC [i=EXetoC@c-c791e155.1422-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 15:02:03 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:02:20 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:03:34 -!- bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has quit ["argrgrgrgr"] 15:04:54 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:06:55 weirdo [n=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:06:58 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:08:18 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:09:35 bob_f [n=bob@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:20 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:15 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.134.153] has quit [Success] 15:12:19 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:27 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:49 willb [n=wibenton@wireless93.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:15:47 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 15:16:31 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:16:39 cmo-0: Google should have older stuff 15:16:47 but groups querying tends to be slightly weird 15:17:03 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:14 you can force it to only return results from a certain time period in the advanced search thing 15:17:26 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:55 So, this is probably an odd thing to want to do, but... Is it currently possible to define named callbacks in SBCL such that they will be picked up by the dynamic linker when I do a load-shared-object? That is, I want to load a library that has unresolved references in it and have those references refer to lisp functions. 15:18:43 (I realize that this would be impossible on Win32, but my mental model of linux dynamic linking suggests that it might work there.) 15:19:24 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:21:26 drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:21:34 The other option, and the one which would also work on Win32, would be to redesign my shared objects to have an init function that takes a structure with all the callbacks populated as pointers. 15:22:07 I don't think the dynamic linker exposes any way to set a symbol except by loading a shared library 15:22:36 Hrm. I was afraid of that. 15:22:43 that is, there's no (setf dlsym) equivalent exported in the system libraries 15:22:52 Yeah, okay, redesign it is, then. 15:22:54 so, write a dynamic library to a temporary name, load it, and unlink it 15:26:15 benny [n=benny@i577A0839.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:26:31 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has joined #lisp 15:26:46 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:28:14 -!- atmaweapon [n=atma@ip70-176-248-217.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:30:50 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-131-244.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:31:04 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:31:14 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 15:31:16 Greetings! 15:34:07 tmh pasted "SETF behavior" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74494 15:35:09 what behavior? 15:35:12 I would like to rely on the SETF behavior illustrated in the paste, but am not confident that it is guaranteed by the CL spec. It works in my implementation, at least. 15:35:35 tmh: the assignments are executed in ltr order. 15:35:50 Follow the link on the symbol SETF in the paste, tmh. 15:35:51 Read. 15:35:51 pkhuong: And that is guaranteed? That's all I'm asking. 15:36:07 yes, it is guaranteed 15:36:11 Riastradh: I've read, but I don't always comprehend correctly. 15:36:12 there is also psetf 15:36:34 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:36:35 `If more than one pair is supplied, the pairs are processed sequentially...' 15:36:59 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:37:08 It even gives the precise expansion in terms of PROGN and unary SETF. I wonder how it could be clearer? 15:37:09 Okay, thanks, just wanted to verify that I understood it correctly. 15:37:29 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:53 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:39:25 knightblader [n=da465415@monroe.cs.ucf.edu] has joined #lisp 15:39:32 Riastradh: I have no confidence in my ability to precisely understand the CL spec. I've thought I understood some behavior before only to have it bite my in the *ss. SETF seemed very clear, but I'm never surprised by my ability to comprehend something incorrectly. 15:39:58 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc26.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 15:40:29 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 15:40:30 Riastradh: Sometimes, when I read the spec, I interpret it the way I want it to work instead of what the spec actually says. 15:40:42 Just getting a sanity check. 15:41:05 OK. 15:42:19 -!- drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:42:28 avdi1 [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:35 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:04 tmh: I'm unclear on what you meant by *ss. Could you please elaborate? 15:46:25 dlowe: ?ss. 15:46:32 dlowe: sorry, I meant #ss. 15:46:59 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:20 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless93.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:43 willb [n=wibenton@nat/redhat/x-3f8832653be222e1] has joined #lisp 15:48:17 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:48:20 dlowe: Rather, I meant @ss. 15:48:44 <_8david> nyef: have you found out more about note-load-time-value-reference in the mean time? 15:48:55 <_8david> In particular, is WHN's kludge comment in write-wordindexed accurate? 15:49:02 rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:50:32 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:53:02 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CC61.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:42 Not particularly accurate. It's actually checking for an undocumented combination of attributes on a descriptor with specific meaning. 15:56:21 If you look at all the calls to make-descriptor, the only ones that pass a word-offset are the one in allocate-cold-descriptor that also passes a gspace, and the one in fop-funcall that passes a nil gspace. 15:57:25 I also note that calling descriptor-intuit-gspace on such a descriptor would signal an error, as the lowtag would be even-fixnum-lowtag. 15:58:05 <_8david> oh. so fop-funcall is delayed into a cold toplevel thing. And if other fops want to change slots in the result from that funcall, we delay those changes, too? 15:58:29 That I don't know... But wouldn't the changes also be funcalls? 16:01:42 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:03:09 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 16:05:16 hello lispers 16:06:49 The KLUDGE comment in descriptor-intuit-gspace should probably die as well. 16:07:04 Since it's actually fairly obvious what it's doing. 16:08:47 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 16:09:24 rotty_ [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:09:43 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:38 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-181-189.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:10:56 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E78D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:22 _8david: So, should I add a patch documenting WTF descriptor-intuit-gspace does and the load-time-value thing? 16:11:41 -!- willb [n=wibenton@nat/redhat/x-3f8832653be222e1] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:14:26 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:15:18 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:16:15 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 16:16:38 Hrm, actually, I think the better solution would be an explicit :load-time-value gspace. 16:19:18 -!- rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:56 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:21:14 -!- hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279775342.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 16:23:20 _8david: What do you think about http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/random-sbcl-patches/load-time-value-gspace.diff ? 16:23:36 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DA3E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:40 los: A Lisp Machine on general-purpose hardware (http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200508/000020050805A0275292.php) 16:25:59 I don't see a link to the paper, though 16:26:55 rpg_ [n=rpg@75-168-110-91.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:57 Impressive, nontheless. 16:27:02 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 16:28:07 jfm3 [n=user@165.230.132.126] has joined #lisp 16:28:22 willb [n=wibenton@wireless93.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:28:35 interpreter? 16:28:52 might as well hack up the relevant bits for movitz 16:28:58 hello #emacs, I'm running emacs-snapshot-gtk out of Ubuntu 8.10. What the hell happened to ansi-term? Anybody have patches that make it display properly again? 16:29:08 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:29:08 jfm3: this isn't #emacs 16:29:17 oh shit. sory 16:29:18 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-169-100.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 16:29:24 jfm3: :) 16:29:43 jfm3: a common mistake, but I believe you're the first person to apologize 16:30:23 Yeah, ERC auto joined me to #lisp and I thought it had just switched me to #emacs. Sorry. :) 16:31:49 Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has joined #lisp 16:33:01 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:35:51 Do people actually use the (values) lingo for procedures that are pure side-effects? I've only ever seen that in AMOP. 16:36:30 It's more often used when leaving the return values around would be bad. 16:36:41 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:37:03 ("Don't cross the streams" type bad, often.) 16:37:17 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.244.2] has joined #lisp 16:40:15 I do when I'm returning something that would be huge in the repl 16:40:45 Okay, changes survived genesis, they must be good. 16:41:29 <_8david> nice. And yes, they'll be helpful for the next person to read this code. 16:41:36 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:51 brown [n=user@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 16:42:20 -!- brown is now known as Guest82189 16:43:33 Okay, I'll commit this on my local. 16:44:01 And once we're out of code freeze I'll see if I can figure out how to commit to mainline again. 16:44:50 sykopomp, only for external api 16:44:59 there's no point for doing it for internal stuff 16:47:15 <_8david> ;; KLUDGE: Why 1+? -- WHN 19990901 16:47:19 <_8david> ;; header word? -- CSR 20051204 16:47:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 16:47:46 <_8david> +;; no, slot 0, the layout -- DFL 20090129 16:48:15 -!- Twey [n=Twey@unaffiliated/twey] has quit ["Adding a monitor."] 16:48:20 I think I know that now 16:48:31 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:48:33 are we going to have an SBCL 10.0 party in December? 16:48:55 SBCL 10? 16:49:03 that'll be in about 50 years, surely? :) 16:49:08 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:14 you misunderstand 16:49:17 10 years 16:49:25 ah :) 16:50:00 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:50:19 if there is interest I can probably arrange an academic venue in London 16:50:31 two days of self-congratulatory back-patting or something 16:51:48 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:51:54 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:52:39 I wouldn't mind visiting london around that time. it might even be borderline affordable given the exchange rate of the british Lira 16:52:48 yeah 16:53:08 we're doing excessively well at being the Poor Man of Europe 16:53:12 come back Italy, all is forgiven 16:53:17 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.137.16] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:51 hi Athas 16:53:59 [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.230] has joined #lisp 16:54:05 Northern Ireland is doing very well out of it; sainsbury and asda now have 5% of the marketshare here (Ireland) despite not actually having any stores at all 16:54:41 yakman_ [n=user@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:54:50 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [No route to host] 16:54:53 people crossing to NI to shop? 16:55:31 does anyone have the lispbot from here which now 404s www.cliki.net/Lisp%20IRC%20Bots 16:55:45 Fade: yep 16:55:55 due to massively de-valued pound 16:56:00 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 16:56:00 *nod* 16:56:10 (similar to people going to New York to shop, but rather quicker) 16:56:23 one could argue "massively correctly-valued pound" 16:57:00 are you in or around dublin, rsynnott? 16:57:00 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:57:04 so, OK, that's one yes vote. Anyone from the US here think that they might come to London in December for an SBCL schmalzfest? 16:57:06 okay, massively over-valued euro, then :) 16:57:10 Fade: yep, in Dublin 16:57:34 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:57:36 last time I was there, the cost of living was absurd. is that starting to fall a bit? 16:57:37 so is uk going to switch to euros then? :) 16:57:41 i've been thinking about coming back. 16:57:45 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 16:59:31 food and so on is still quite expensive 16:59:40 (food's expensive pretty much globally at the moment) 16:59:44 property market is gone 16:59:50 rents are finally starting to fall a bit 16:59:55 Food's pretty cheap in india. :) 16:59:57 that's good news. 16:59:58 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:00:09 well, unless you were massively invested in realestate, I guess. 17:00:11 alcohol is still very expensive and will remain so, due to extremely high taxes 17:00:20 I haven't been back to Dublin in a couple of years; I miss it. 17:00:33 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.230] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 17:00:46 I'm in canada at the moment; home of the most expensive hooch in the world. :) 17:01:14 heh 17:01:52 [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.230] has joined #lisp 17:02:06 also, there's a massive budget deficit; it remains to be seen whether this will be fixed by increasing taxes a lot or just firing the civil service 17:02:27 yeah 17:02:51 I was watching the irish showdown with the eurozone financial czars quite carefully. 17:02:59 <[Head|Rest]>  ...      ,   %) 17:03:39 -!- avdi1 [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:39 it seems likely that Ireland will suffer more than most of Europe 17:03:56 I love the comment in descriptor-fixnum. 17:04:00 three cheers for fractional reserve banking. :P 17:04:09 (we were overly dependent on property, the government is being timid about dealing with the banks, and when it comes to it we have far further to fall) 17:04:27 aye 17:08:30 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:09:36 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-11-112.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:09:57 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:12:48 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:48 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host190-245-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:13:52 *rsynnott* is currently just hoping that the bank I use doesn't go under 17:15:45 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75-168-110-91.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [] 17:16:07 *housel* is glad that his bank is Too Big to Fail 17:16:24 x86 call_into_lisp_first_time: 17:16:24 movl %esp,ALIEN_STACK + SYMBOL_VALUE_OFFSET 17:16:25 *nyef* is glad the US has FDIC. 17:16:27 wtf? 17:16:29 mine is, theoretically 17:16:35 and we have an FDIC equiv 17:16:43 it clobbers a perfectly good alien stack pointer 17:16:51 and sets it to the control stack? 17:16:59 but (similar to the FDIC), the govt is allowed take its time paying out 17:17:14 mega1: Sounds about right to me. That code has always been funky. 17:17:28 ooh, scary low-level internals 17:18:14 I'm still amazed at the 48/16 split pointer format used internally within genesis. 17:18:17 hmm, edi weitz is bad at being angry 17:18:33 nyef: genesis the console? 17:18:42 genesis the cold-core creator. 17:18:43 nyef: the global value that's clobbered is only seen in unithread builds. But does nobody uses x86 sbcl without threads? 17:18:53 ah 17:19:21 how it could survive, I have no idea 17:19:41 Oh, hello Krystof. 17:20:35 mega1: Because it's already running on a valid stack, and is about to switch away from it as a control stack? 17:21:02 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc26.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 17:23:41 nyef: I see. It defeats the protection offered by the guard page. I'm removing that bit. 17:23:58 it would be nice to reclaim the original stack somehow 17:26:00 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-181-189.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:26:30 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Success] 17:26:56 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 17:27:28 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 17:28:19 Mind the win32 semantics while you're at it. 17:30:59 that line was ifndef win32 already 17:31:08 I know, I'm just saying... 17:31:19 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:58 I wanted to note that the gcc guys were impressively responsive and helpful. 17:33:11 I now have access to the compile farm. 17:33:28 avdi1 [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:38 it has a alpha and sparc and a lot of x86/x86-64. 17:33:40 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 17:33:47 ppc is planned 17:33:48 that was nice of them 17:34:05 indeed 17:34:13 Alpha, huh? 17:34:20 *rsynnott* wonders how long the last alpha will be kept alive for the benefit of compiler writers 17:34:50 I don't even know whether it builds ... 17:35:01 the last alpha binary is 0.9ish 17:35:10 should work 17:35:13 -!- snafuchs is now known as antifuchs 17:35:38 I recall that I was using a mid-0.9ish sbcl to build well into the early 1.0s 17:35:53 Do they also have MIPS and/or ARM machines in the farm? 17:35:56 but from then on, you're on your own (: 17:36:19 or HPPA? :) 17:36:29 (is there still a HPPA sbcl?) 17:36:48 rsynnott: There were a pile of fixes applied recently, IIRC. 17:37:45 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:37:59 nyef: yes 17:38:12 and since I checked this morning they have ppc too :-) 17:38:21 Nice. 17:38:58 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 17:39:09 however, they are all debian/ubuntu 17:39:17 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:39:20 *rsynnott* misses the times when there was more than one architecture that mattered to anyone much 17:39:31 how will people be annoyed by endian weirdness now? 17:41:15 rsynnott: apparently through having to parse the unicode endian marker 17:41:54 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:44:58 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:45:53 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 17:47:01 -!- yakman_ [n=user@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 17:47:55 sebaseba [n=sebaseba@189.123.217.141] has joined #lisp 17:49:32 Krystof: this issue you describe only appears if you enter an invalid command/attempt command completion, right? 17:49:47 -!- jfm3 [n=user@165.230.132.126] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:50:39 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:17 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-065-010.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:21 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:52:31 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:54:51 jao [n=user@13.Red-83-42-109.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:24 rpg_ [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has joined #lisp 17:55:53 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 17:56:28 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-67-218.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 17:58:37 Here's an oddball question --- has anyone worked with the pretty-printer to make it emit HTML? 17:58:48 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 17:59:47 -!- binarin` [n=user@62.105.145.214] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:53 rpg: perhaps attila's cl-syntax-sugar or cl-quasi-quote, but I'm not sure that they use the pretty-printer 18:01:42 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 18:04:08 -!- nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:04:52 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:58 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 18:05:24 -!- avdi1 [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:30 fe[nl]ix: thanks. I'll look at them. I am trying to format a lisp-like syntax as HTML, and the challenge is that I need to turn *some* of the indentation into non-breaking space 18:05:59 and I need to make it properly indent, even though the HTML (with tags) is "bigger" than what actually will go onto the screen... 18:07:12 don't use   18:07:21 nickgrim_pidgin [n=nick@94-194-206-64.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:07:25 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.1] has joined #lisp 18:07:27 -!- nickgrim_pidgin [n=nick@94-194-206-64.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 18:07:38 nickgrim_pidgin [n=nick@94-194-206-64.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:07:58 I'd use a new div for each line and manipulate indent via CSS 18:08:35 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:08:40 mle: but then don't I need to really reimplement the pretty-printer myself? 18:09:08 Athas: no, immediately 18:09:10 mle: sorry --- I'm not at all a CSS expert. 18:09:34 not entirely, no; you could prettyprint to a string and then transform the string line-by-line to html 18:09:37 Do I use the div attribute to indicate how deeply a particular line should be indented? 18:09:43 Athas: though maybe I've done something wrong in setting up the command tables 18:09:47 or maybe I'm misdiagnosing stuff 18:10:02 (sorry, must go and sing) 18:10:06 rpg: What about pprinting to an html-formatting-stream? Or does that also defeat the point? 18:10:08 mle: The problem is that when I pretty-print to the string, I lose the semantics. 18:10:15 rpg: yes; that can also handle line-wrapping for cases of too-small a display 18:10:33 -!- nickgrim_pidgin [n=nick@94-194-206-64.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 18:10:45 nyef: I didn't know there was such a thing as an html-formatting-stream... 18:10:48 what are you printing then? 18:11:00 rpg: Oh, you'd have to implement it as a gray stream. 18:12:01 mle: It's a lisp-like programming language. So I'd like the procedure names to be printed as some distinct tag that I can make clickable, I'd like statements to be in id'ed divs so that I can highlight them when they're executed, and I'd like monospace. 18:12:23 s/procedure name/step name/ --- all the steps have identifiers. 18:12:46 First I thought "pretty printer," but I'm not sure that it's up to the job... 18:13:19 disappointingly, I'm not finding a pdf of dick waters' "how to use the pretty-printer" on line. Anyone have a pointer? 18:13:33 *rpg* left his paper copy at home in the file cabinet. 18:17:03 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70cb0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:17:11 Krystof: nah, I can see where it goes wrong. 18:17:32 Krystof: I just didn't think it attempted to create a full inheritance tree from the get-go. 18:17:44 And yeah, I've used the gadget succesfully before. 18:17:58 nyef: I could write my own pretty-printer; that's what I was trying to avoid.... 18:18:55 The main problem is the indent stuff, isn't it? 18:19:54 nyef: Yes. And the complication is that the width of the string doesn't indicate the width of what's displayed. 18:21:14 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-d9609aa447698097] has joined #lisp 18:25:36 rpg: Put the code in a `pre` element? 18:25:39 binarin` [n=user@62.105.145.214] has joined #lisp 18:25:50 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:26:23 Aankhen``: then I can't make the statement names turn into clickable things.... 18:26:31 Why would you think that? 18:27:01 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-67-218.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:27:06 Aankhen``: well, if I let the pretty-printer spew the lists for me (which I'd like to do), I think I'm faced with the following conundrum: 18:28:01 Aankhen``: (1) not be able to turn the statement labels into > ... or (2) have the pretty printer incorrectly compute the indentation. 18:28:15 Wait, I'm a little confused. 18:28:20 If I'm missing something (the pretty-printer is largely a mystery), please let me know.. 18:28:43 What you're printing out is the code, with markup, right? 18:29:53 Aankhen``: yes. 18:30:26 But I want the markup interpreted, not displayed. 18:30:36 *Aankhen``* nods. 18:30:55 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:30:59 You're only concerned with the indentation of the displayed code, though, right? 18:31:54 Aankhen``: yes. 18:32:08 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:35 Ah. I think I finally get it. 18:32:52 Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like something I'd be of much help with. 18:33:42 Aankhen``: Here's an alternative magical solution: (1) pretty-print the list; (2) replace the white spaces with non-breaking spaces and newlines with
    ; (3) the magic --- somehow recognize the tags and translate them into links. 18:34:23 Possibly I can figure out some way to translate the tags into something that has a cookie on it so that I can do a regexp-replace to insert the markup. 18:34:26 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279775342.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:34:35 -!- pjb [n=t@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has quit ["need to restart erc."] 18:34:51 By "the tags" do you mean the `br' tags or all the tags in there? 18:34:56 I just need to figure out a cookie that won't change the string length. 18:35:13 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-54-23.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 18:35:27 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:31 Aankhen``: bad jargon collision --- the statements in this programming language each have "tags". These are not HTML tags; they are unique identifiers. 18:35:40 Aha. 18:35:40 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:54 minion: logs 18:35:55 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 18:36:02 Well, regardless of how you handle the indentation, I'd still suggest using a `pre` with no NBSPs or manual linebreaks. 18:36:14 s/handle the indentation/handle computing the indentations/ 18:36:20 Did I just say indentations? 18:36:21 *Aankhen``* facepalms. 18:36:26 pjb [n=t@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:37:35 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-211-166-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 18:40:17 GoD` [n=user@cpe-66-65-25-217.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:44 -!- GoD` [n=user@cpe-66-65-25-217.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 18:41:17 Actually, I bet if I understood character codes better, I could solve this problem. I'm using Allegro mlisp for this (there's SOAP stuff going on), and I bet I could stick something in spare bits in the characters, and use that as rudimentary markup. 18:42:17 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-211-250-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:48 Then I could just use the pretty-printer as a "first draft" formatter, and regexp replace to get stuff in the string replaced by stuff with HTML markup on it. 18:46:43 OK, time to read about unicode... 18:47:38 rpg: The article is available at . 18:49:31 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:51:35 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.1] has quit [] 18:55:19 Oh, right. -This- example of using the pprinter. 18:55:24 josemanuel [n=josemanu@137.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:55:29 jao` [n=user@20.Red-83-39-133.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:18 jao`: you here! 18:56:19 hi :) 18:56:42 hi :0 18:56:45 :) 18:56:58 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 18:57:47 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-54-23.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:54 -!- sebaseba [n=sebaseba@189.123.217.141] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 19:00:19 danderson, so, i hope you're a lisper by now :) 19:02:05 jao`: I tried writing a virtual machine compiler for the motorola 68k cpu in CL, does that count? :) 19:02:17 sure it does 19:02:23 (still stuck on elegantly handling non-orthogonal opcodes, stupid instruction set) 19:02:28 link? 19:03:15 no website currently, I can link to the git repository with the code, that's about it 19:03:25 hello #lisp, what's new n exciting? 19:03:35 drewc: xmls patches :p 19:03:42 and I'm not even sure it compiles right now, I probably broke it last weekend 19:03:54 danderson: why not try ColdFire first, then add what CF is missing to make 68k 19:04:00 drewc: I have a small pile of sbcl genesis and cold-init changes now. 19:04:03 at least you'd ahve something working, then you could move on... 19:04:21 chupish: isn't coldfire > 68k? 19:04:27 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:04:34 danderson, i see 19:04:38 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 19:04:43 the hardware is, but the instruction set is 68k minus addressing modes & more orthagonal 19:04:54 aaah. Interesting! 19:04:59 the way Freescale state it is "Source compatible, but not binary compatible" 19:05:33 jao`: git clone git://natulte.net/cl68k 19:05:43 thanks 19:05:56 warning: ugly code ahead, possibly with cruft still lying around; I changed my mind on how to do this several times :) 19:05:58 *nyef* shudders at the memory of his attempts at writing a 68k core. 19:06:07 meh, CF isn't so bad 19:06:13 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 19:06:17 chupish, sounds like 8086 and 8080... 19:06:22 the code in the repo is one of my more brute force attempts 19:06:43 and I have a less brutal attempt locally, but it builds even less than the code in the repo. 19:06:59 dlowe: right .. i saw those. how about i just give you commit access? 19:07:01 fare: sure, kinda-sorta, if you forgive ColdFire scaling to multicore & SoC... ;-) 19:07:02 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 19:07:10 dlowe: i have not used xmls in some 4 years 19:07:19 drewc: sure, I'll help maintain it 19:07:30 dlowe: great! 19:07:30 -!- jao [n=user@13.Red-83-42-109.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:07:31 chupish, do you have a Lisp that dumps ColdFire code? 19:07:50 fare, I have a small scheme dialect that runs on one of the boards I have at home 19:07:59 dlowe: Adding user `dlowe' to group `xmls' ... 19:08:00 Done. 19:08:06 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 19:08:22 I was thinking of making something GOAL-like for CF, but I've not had the time 19:08:24 chupish: the original intent was to hack up a Sega Genesis emulator, which runs on 68k, so barring binary translation of roms that already do some rather shaky stuff... 19:08:35 what's GOAL like? 19:08:41 nyef: are those for SBCL in general, or one of your various sbcl-based uberhacks 19:08:44 Game Oriented Assembly Lisp 19:08:52 Naughty Dog used it to make Jak & Daxter 19:09:01 it's a CL->PS2 basically 19:09:03 drewc: For mainline, once we're out of freeze. 19:09:04 that part I know -- but what is it LIKE? 19:09:22 ah, I've only seen snippets, I meant the idea 19:09:23 jao`: and what about you? What are you up to these days? 19:09:27 i.e. how does it compare to CL or Scheme or elisp or some other known dialect? 19:09:29 Fare: any examples i've seen are very low level .. mostly a sexp assembly for ps2. 19:09:38 yeah, basically 19:09:46 written in CL though ,so with macros and other goodness 19:09:55 ok 19:10:47 drewc: It's a mix of comment fixes, useless-code cleanups, making a few things clearer, and not dumping untagged pointers to inside heap objects. 19:10:57 danderson, i've been hacking a slime kind of thing for Factor 19:11:07 quamaretto [n=millij@70.228.181.122] has joined #lisp 19:11:35 nyef: sounds like business as usual :) 19:11:46 Pretty much. 19:12:03 -!- jao` is now known as jao 19:12:18 jao: fun. I need to look at Factor (sigh, another language on the todo list...) 19:12:33 danderson, :) 19:13:11 avdi1 [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:59 factor needs it, too. (a slime-like thing) 19:14:00 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177126037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:14:09 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:49 hefner, well, actually it already has something not too shabby, if i may say so. it's called FUEL. 19:14:53 Fare: you're point about PLT's languages vs CL's nasty side effected read-time stuff is quite valid.. that's one of the things i really liked about Clojure too... the lack of cl-like madness. 19:14:59 jao: so I've heard. 19:15:03 your 19:15:05 your point 19:15:13 *drewc* drinks more coffee 19:15:22 sure you don't want less coffee? 19:15:25 ground7 [n=ground7@c-98-244-54-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:38 tic: it's my second sip of the first cup ... 19:15:58 it hasn't even begun the clear the fog of sleep yet :) 19:16:29 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:16:37 drewc, fog of sleep? when I was your age, I'd been up for 8 hours by now! 19:16:40 Aankhen``: thanks a lot --- the conversation was very helpful.. 19:17:20 I missed the earlier discussion. Why do you absolutely do not want print-object to return a value? (i.e., why end it with (values) ?) 19:17:47 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:51 rpg: I'm glad I was of some use. :-) FWIW, I'm no great shakes with CL, but I'm always happy to point fingers at code that isn't doing TRT with HTML, CSS or JS. ;-) 19:18:15 Is it not specified that print-object should return the object? 19:18:28 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:18:30 print-object object stream => object 19:18:37 it says right there ------------^ 19:18:43 Bummer. Then it was something else I was thinking of. Sorry. 19:18:46 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:00 tic: gah ... when i was my age i was up late last night :) 19:19:02 Which raise now the question of why print-unreadable-object doesn't return it! 19:19:33 it does return nil, though. 19:19:58 -!- ground7 [n=ground7@unaffiliated/ground7] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:00 Yes, you have to add returning the object to your print-object methods... 19:20:11 but I do remember some fairly common method returning (values). can't remember which one though. 19:20:15 but the point was, _why_? 19:20:26 nostoi [n=nostoi@177.Red-79-145-97.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:57 dcrawford_ [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:25 One answer was to avoid filling the REPL with a (useless) large object, IIRC. 19:21:44 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:21:53 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:21:56 it is useful to have print return the object printed for primitive debugging approaches 19:22:23 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-161-213.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:22:32 Yeah, definitely. I was just thinking it didn't. 19:22:35 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 19:22:41 evenin' 19:23:08 Hello schme. 19:24:04 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 19:24:39 aha! I was thinking of display-generic-function (AMOP p.61), where there's no motivation given as to why it returns (values). On the other hand, it actually displays a list of values, so it's hard to return a single useful. and having nil at the end would probably look silly. 19:25:00 -!- dcrawford_ [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:25:16 Whee. Another hack, another build. 19:25:25 dcrawford_ [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:38 -!- dcrawford_ is now known as dcrawford 19:25:45 nyef? 19:25:55 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:26:16 Fare: Trying a simplification of descriptor-intuit-gspace in genesis. 19:26:54 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 19:27:03 -!- holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Success] 19:27:57 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:28:27 Aankhen``: The great thing about that troika is that in one program you get three times the error opportunities! 19:28:44 fr33fall [n=fr33fall@205-246-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:09 rpg: Even more when you factor in multiple escape levels. Just add PHP for even more fun! 19:30:56 *rpg* weeps 19:33:57 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:46 nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 19:35:31 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-1.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:35:47 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:38:39 moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 19:39:06 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:41:43 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:41:52 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:10 amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:25 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 19:46:53 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc26.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 19:47:04 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@177.Red-79-145-97.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:48:00 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:49:00 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:50:34 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp193.studby.uio.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:52:26 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:07 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:53:11 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 19:54:33 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-14-220.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:54:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:55:28 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:56:00 [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.117] has joined #lisp 19:58:44 Not currently on my commit queue, but I could be talked into it: http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/random-sbcl-patches/alternative-gspace-intuition.diff 20:01:13 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-68-101.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 20:03:36 -!- aartist [n=REENA@ool-44c51a97.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:04:07 lispm [n=joswig@e177150209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:07:16 rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-57-64.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:08:33 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:09:45 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:11:08 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 20:11:21 l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:11:22 PP question: how does one start a logical block if one is printing, e.g., a structure? with-logical-block demands an object argument and short-circuits if it's not a list... 20:11:35 s/with-logical-block/pprint-logical-block/ 20:11:55 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-94-66.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:01 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:13:08 Without actually looking into it, have you considered "just" consing up a new list or something? 20:13:56 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 20:14:20 nyef: Yes. I considered that, but it seemed so odd that I was wondering if I'd just goofed something up. Seemed like there should be something like (with-logical-block ...) (hence my typo). 20:14:45 The pretty-printer seems very list-centric... 20:15:10 I love when I decide I finally have to go add some hairy feature to some old code and then discover it's already in there. 20:15:40 Interestingly, format lets me make a logical block without requiring a list... 20:15:51 rpg: I missed some earlier part of this conversation; what are you trying to pretty print? 20:16:29 gigamonkey: I'm trying to pretty-print a lisp-like language as HTML with markup. 20:17:00 The precise data structures from which I am printing are lisp structures that make up an abstract syntax tree (so not lists). 20:17:07 "(If the body forms are not to be responsible for printing a list, then the first two tests above can be turned off by supplying nil for the object argument.)" 20:17:17 Per clhs pprint-logical-block. 20:17:31 nyef: Thanks not sure how I overlooked that... 20:17:56 Well, it is in the middle of some fairly dense text. 20:18:15 rpg: Hmmm. Have you looked at chapters 30 and 31 of PCL? I've never been able to quite make the pretty printer do what I want without huge mental contortions. Those chapters are something like what I'd do if I had your problem to solve. 20:18:40 nyef: Yes, it is not proximate to the sentence that seems to rule: "If object is not a list, it is printed using write." 20:18:41 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-238-145.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 20:19:00 rpg: Right, but NIL -is- a list. 20:19:20 gigamonkey: Thanks. I'll look now (hardcopy's at home, but I believe the pdf's online). 20:20:49 gigamonkey: The tricky thing's that I want to *emit* html, but I want the end result (as interpreted by the browser) to look like pretty-printed lisp, but with some additional markup attributes. 20:21:25 Those chapters are about a list-based language for representing HTML but the basic framework could easily be adapted to mapping from any kind of objects to any kind of indented text. 20:21:25 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.117] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:21:59 Though if you want it really properly pretty-printed from a lisp point of view, I can see the appeal of trying to shoehorn it into the pretty printer. 20:22:09 You know, the real trick would be to get the browser to do all the margin junk for pprinting. 20:22:39 Given that, it seems like you might need to map from your structures to a highly annotated list form and then add pretty-printer foo that turns the annotations into html. 20:22:49 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:22:55 Which, I think someone may have suggested. 20:23:57 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:25:23 E.g. If you had '((annotation:clhs-link defun) (annotation:cross-ref foo) (x y) ((annotation:clhs-link +) ((annotation:definition bar) x) ((annotation:definition baz) y))) for (defun foo (x y) (+ (bar x) (baz y))) you could probably make the pretty printer do what you want. 20:25:50 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 20:28:36 gigamonkey: I think that you are right and I need to do something like your indenting stream. The problem is that I need to print onto the same stream two kinds of characters --- the markup (meta) language characters, that do NOT count when tracking line length and wrapping, and the marked-up (object) language characters that do count. 20:29:03 gigamonkey: your indenting print code is probably a good foundation for this. 20:29:18 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 20:29:36 I can write two kinds of print functions onto those streams, markup printers and non-markup printers. 20:31:22 Ah yeah, I hadn't thought about how the HTML text you emit would totally confuse the pretty printer. 20:31:39 rpg: Why do you need to track the length of the non-markup text? 20:31:56 Possibly I could trick the pretty-printer into doing what I wanted by making a "two-into-one stream" (I'm forgetting the name for this) so that the pprinter would only see the non-markup characters. 20:32:21 nyef: so that the non-markup text would be indented properly using pretty printer operations like conditional newlines and logical blocks. 20:33:00 I'm really thinking that this isn't really a pprinter problem. 20:33:17 If you really want nicely pretty printed Lisp you'll probably need to expand my indenting stream into a pretty-printing stream that supports the same basic notions as the Lisp pretty printer. But you can probably cheat a bit by not implementing all the hairy bits, say by assuming that various margins are fixed. 20:33:20 It's something that wants very similar control structures, but... 20:33:58 If you really wanted to be crazy you'd write a Lisp pretty printer in Javascript so the pretty printing would get fixed if the window resizes. >:-) 20:34:23 Or, modulo the conditional-newlines, couldn't you do it in CSS? 20:34:37 Then we could add that to paste.lisp.org and stop complaining about newbies non-indented Lisp code. ;-) 20:34:40 nyef: possibly. I know lisp, but I really don't know CSS... 20:34:57 rpg: the spec is pretty simple, for what you need to do 20:35:18 nyef: I'm having a hard time imagining what you mean "do it in CSS". But I no doubt lack imagination. 20:36:00 I'm with gigamonkey. I really wouldn't know where to begin. Would CSS give me something like a "depth" attribute that I could use to do the indentation? 20:36:22 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:25 just set the left margin for that div 20:36:28 You'd use nested divs, and let the browser worry about the indentation. 20:36:37 or that :p 20:37:03 hm, nested divs might let you do colored-background by indentation easier, or the like 20:37:51 nyef: so the divs would act like logical blocks? 20:37:57 Could even do :per-line-prefix via some inline css stuff, I think... 20:38:22 Yes, at least logical blocks, if not other bits. 20:39:21 Quick question (sorry it's dumb) --- does CSS have a notion of type hierarchy, so that I could say "this is an IF div" and the CSS would know that IF isa STATEMENT? 20:40:12 Other possibility --- just turn the damn things into XML and do all the translation with some witches brew of XSLT and CSS... 20:40:28 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:40:39 Double double, toil and trouble... Making XSLT, I am... 20:40:45 Doesn't quite work. 20:40:46 rpg: I think, no. But you could say "this is an IF and a STATEMENT div" 20:41:50 Or in your CSS stylesheet you could duplicate the style information of STATEMENT in the IF class (assuming you're mapping things like IF to a CSS class). 20:42:19 That's gross of course, but if you generate the CSS from some saner data structure it's only gross under the covers. 20:42:25 IF css doesn't have the class hierarchy you want... generate CSS from something that does! 20:42:34 The xml idea is appealing because I could just throw the semantics over the wall and let the browser deal with ALL of the formatting, and that would mean that the resizing and stuff would be handled automagically. 20:42:54 But unlikely in a way that looks like pretty printed Lisp. 20:42:55 rpg: wouldn't work in lynx, would it? 20:43:04 rpg: ... Isn't that what we're talking about anyway? 20:44:11 gigamonkey: Why is that unlikely? Couldn't I do the same sort of logical-block-based indent increment and decrement on the browser side? 20:46:35 nyef: sorry -- I think your question may have drifted from its context, so I'm not sure what "that" refers to. 20:46:45 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-35-80.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:46:57 Persuading the browser to do the bulk of the layout work by means of suitable CSS. 20:48:26 rpg: "No" on the CSS type hierarchy. And please don't solely use nested `div`s to convey indentation. 20:48:51 Does CSS let me do relative indentation? 20:48:58 Relative to its parent, yes. 20:49:11 So... isn't that nested divs? 20:49:12 I have only the most wretched imaginable CSS book here. 20:49:14 I strongly recommend you don't rely on that to convey indentation, though, as I said. 20:49:29 Aankhen``: can you say why (as to a bear of very little brain)? 20:49:52 rpg: xml also means that you're throwing away IE and perhaps Webkit compatibility too(if that's ok) 20:50:06 fe[nl]ix: If it works on Firefox that will be enough for me. 20:50:11 But thanks for the caution. 20:50:42 rpg: Hmm. I was going to say the indentation is semantic information, but after thinking about it I'm not so sure. 20:50:55 It's just formatting. 20:51:26 Aankhen``: If I could manage something like the notion of a logical block in the pretty-printer, then I'd be inclined to agree that it was semantic. 20:51:53 rpg: for instance, OSX 10.4.7's Safari can't render http://common-lisp.net/project/bknr/static/lmman/fd-sym.xml . Don't know about 10.5 20:51:58 rpg: If it *is* semantic information it belongs in the actual data, i.e. the HTML. If not, feel free to stick it in your CSS. 20:52:01 -!- fr33fall [n=fr33fall@205-246-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit [] 20:52:03 firefox and opera are ok 20:52:25 Is the parameter list of a function considered a logical block in lisp pretty printer terms? 20:53:02 I have this idea that there are things that might be displayed on one line or broken up over multiple lines depending on the indentation level and the prevailing margins. 20:53:05 Probably depends on the implementation... 20:53:13 gigamonkey: When we have done this layout for textual output, we did it that way. 20:53:16 If you render those all with nested divs they will always be one or the other. 20:53:24 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087DC6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 20:53:39 i.e., --- you can use a logical block with conditional newlines to get the parameters to format nicely. 20:53:39 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087DC6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:51 That's what I was thinking of when I said a pure-CSS solution wouldn't look much like properly pretty-printed Lisp. 20:54:16 gigamonkey: you mean that there's nothing analogous to conditional newlines in web markup? 20:54:26 Just let it wrap? 20:55:00 Oh, but that would only work if you stuck each block in an element of its own and positioned it correctly. 20:55:14 rpg: not that I know of. 20:55:21 Aankhen``: I should probably do that, but letting it wrap could be pretty much arbitrarily bad. 20:55:32 Or rather, they all are. But it won't wrapped based on the structure of your s-exps. 20:55:51 There *is* a reason the pretty printer is so hairy. ;-) 20:56:14 The problem with sticking formatting entirely in the CSS is that, e.g. copy/pasting the contents would result in a mess. 20:56:27 (Since the formatting is simply visual information rather than part of the page.) 20:56:35 ? 20:56:41 If I understand what you all are saying it is that I pretty much must commit myself to using either a hard break (
    ) or no break (). 20:57:30 Aankhen``: actually, I think that would be a feature, not a bug, because, for example, if one was to pull an sexpression of a screen like this and paste it into emacs, emacs could just format it however it liked. 20:57:56 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.207] has joined #lisp 20:58:25 gigamonkey: I think actually there are no conditional newlines. You either break or you let it run off the right margin... 20:58:36 hmm, there was a visual layout for Lisp dialects using html & css, but it was more to make a Scratch-like representation... 20:58:43 "Someone threw up in my lisp" or the like... 20:58:58 chupish: do you have a pointer? 20:59:05 In that case, just convert the `br's into newlines and spaces into non-breaking spaces, then stick it in a `pre' and let people stick it in Emacs if they don't like the format. :-) 20:59:09 Or does that bring us back to square one? 20:59:18 Lack of sleep is addling my brain. 20:59:45 Right, I'm going to bed. Good luck rpg. 20:59:48 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.174.42] has quit ["“DEAR DUMBASS THIS IS NOT A STRING: NIL”"] 21:00:03 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-255.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:00:16 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 21:00:34 -!- ^authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Client Quit] 21:00:37 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 21:00:42 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-255.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:00:43 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:59 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@XPLR-TS-10-VAN-67-201-133-74.barrettxplore.com] has joined #lisp 21:04:13 -!- BrianRice-mb is now known as BrianRice 21:04:54 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:59 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 21:05:54 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 21:06:02 OK, the more I think about this the more I think that making a stream that joins together two output streams (a demux stream), so that I can write "invisible characters" in one stream and "visible characters" in another, and they come together into one stream (that goes to the browser). 21:06:05 antoszka [n=antoszka@2001:6a0:14a:0:0:0:0:dada] has joined #lisp 21:06:36 Then I can write the s-expression visibly to the pretty-printer and the markup to the other stream and (as long as I force-output, I believe) I should get the right thing. 21:06:55 rpg: Problem is, you can't portably do that with a pretty printing stream, AFAICT. 21:07:23 nyef: because the pretty-printer can look into the guts of the stream implementation? 21:08:00 rpg: my guess is that if you go down that path (assuming for the moment that nyef is wrong when he says it just won't work) that you will either emerge a) with a deep and visceral understanding of the pretty printer or b) insane. 21:08:05 Because it's specified to be undefined how the pretty printing stream interacts with operations on the underlying stream. 21:08:17 nyef: drat. 21:08:43 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:09:02 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:04 Looks like back to the "do it by hand" route. 21:09:05 -!- sandGorgon [n=user@122.162.142.236] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:09:12 Since a is probably preferable to b (assuming they're not EQL) then you might as well write your own pretty-printer-lite. 21:09:25 Heh. "Everyone wants true persistence..." "... until they actually get it!" 21:09:27 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 21:09:38 nyef: who said? 21:09:44 nyef, where is that from? I read that recently 21:09:58 From ILC 2005 travers-slides. The KnowOS presentation. 21:10:09 yup 21:10:40 nyef: what's the catch ? what's wrong with actually having true persistence ? 21:10:50 well, you certainly don't want true persistence in a half-assed way that makes everything costly and dangerous. 21:10:55 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-113-147.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:11:08 e.g. now all your setf's cost 1ms 21:11:36 and/or you can screw up your system for good and lose all your data because of one defun 21:12:03 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:19 fe[nl]ix: Why don't you want true persistence? For the same reason you want source control. Because the other option is f*cking stupid. 21:12:20 Fare: redefining a function in the persistence code ? 21:12:26 gigamonkey: that gives me an idea --- I'm gonna see if Waters's xp.lisp is still lying around the web somewhere... Probably a very good starting point.. 21:13:02 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [] 21:13:03 so true persistence is only worth it if you can also virtualize worlds, isolate them from each other, have some configurable policies on how persistent they are, etc. 21:13:38 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:13:42 fe[nl]ix, yup -- make a mistake in a function used to persist data, and there goes your world. 21:13:56 This, by the way, is why I don't like fully orthoganal persistence, image-based development, and so on. 21:14:01 (also needed is good revision control, etc.) 21:14:11 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:19 Fare: that's why I like Jonathan shapiro's combination of persistence and a capability-based OS 21:14:40 nyef, not a problem with orthogonal persistence or images per se -- a problem with lack of virtualization of the images. 21:14:44 I like W7 21:14:47 Right. 21:14:53 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:17 I'd like to setup multiuser W7 env; would be interesting 21:15:18 Also ties into why I don't like single-address-space environments for modern-day computing. 21:15:27 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:16:09 Rule 1: You -will- crash your image at times. Rule 2: For those of you who won't crash your image, see rule 1. 21:16:15 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:07 -!- chupish [n=sedwards@waffle.aip.org] has quit ["leaving"] 21:19:04 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 21:21:22 sloot [n=chatzill@80.48.188.34] has joined #lisp 21:21:30 Free rapidshare accounts: http://konta-rs.waw.pl/index.php?c=viral&m=index&id=24c221a2e836fc59cc0dcdac1f103d78 21:21:59 -!- mvilleneuve [n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:11 What is the "better" FFI? CFFI or UFFI? (I'm on SBCL, Mac OS X) 21:22:26 The-Kenny: Of the two, CFFI. 21:22:33 That said, I'm -still- partial to SB-ALIEN. 21:23:18 ("UFFI is dead! Long live CFFI-UFFI-COMPAT!") 21:23:23 that deserves a blog entry. 21:23:28 nyef: will you write it? :) 21:23:45 What? 21:24:01 nyef: I will play around with CFFI then. Thank you :) 21:24:14 Hmmm. I guess wc doesn't grok utf-8. 21:25:36 Does anyone have a clue of where I can get more information about the keyboard used with the old lisp machines, the ones with several thousand typeable characters? 21:25:37 gigamonkey: in what sense ? 21:25:51 wc -c is the number of bytes in the file not the number of characters. 21:25:52 nyef, right. You're too busy hacking to have a blog. And yet you waste time on IRC! 21:25:57 -!- sloot [n=chatzill@80.48.188.34] has left #lisp 21:26:31 meingbg: you might start by googling "space cadet keyboard" 21:26:51 Fare: Actually, it's more that I haven't liked any of the blog software I've used yet, and building my own hasn't risen to the top of my priority list. 21:27:03 nyef: I feel the same way 21:27:12 gigamonkey: try wc -m 21:27:14 dlowe: About single-address-space systems, or blogs? 21:27:17 gigamonkey: already did. It basically sais just that - how many characters it had. No clue of what characters, though... 21:27:23 nyef: the bad part is that I did write my own and now I don't like it. 21:27:31 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:32 s/sais/says 21:27:32 nyef: I don't much like single address space systems either 21:28:28 gigamonkey: gnu wc has a -m that gives the character number 21:29:39 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:58 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:34:37 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:39 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:35:59 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-179-34-95.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:05 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:37:15 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 21:37:56 chessweb [n=chatzill@g228153200.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:38:31 eirik: ah, I missed that in the man page. Thanks. 21:38:40 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.207] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:38:52 ah, fe[nl]ix, thanks to you too. 21:38:58 -!- archangelpetro [n=archange@82.24.172.86] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:39:02 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 21:39:04 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 21:39:12 meingbg: there may be some more in the Jargon file. 21:39:16 schme [n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:39:33 *gigamonkey* wishes HTML wasn't a tree. 21:39:44 evenin' 21:39:56 birch 21:40:05 *gigamonkey* does not know, however, what he wishes it was. 21:40:07 gigamonkey: would you prefer a web? 21:40:42 gigamonkey: properly speaking, xhtml is a tree, and html is tag soup 21:40:44 I want to be able to apply styles to regions of a document that may cross and overlap with the HTML structure. 21:40:45 (consider *acyclic-graphs*) 21:41:30 So I have to do this

    Some foo blah

    more blah more good stuff

    21:41:40 -!- egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has quit ["leaving"] 21:42:21 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-236-123.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:14 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:43:26 gigamonkey: yeah, i remember wanting to do that at some point. 21:44:24 It'd be nice if the browser exposed a more-primitive underlying text layout/formatting engine. 21:44:42 Then rpg and I would both be much happier. 21:44:51 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 21:45:16 It's in there somewhere, presumably. 21:45:26 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:45:42 Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:57 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:46 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:02 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:52 felix^^ [n=fgeller@dslb-088-074-220-068.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:04 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:29 hi! quick question: any reason why to avoid cons'ing? 21:50:55 you'll wear out your garbage collector. 21:51:02 -!- avdi1 [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:51:38 felix^^: not until you know that cons'ing is causing you problems 21:53:14 froydnj: i'm just reading the implementation of handler-bind and restart-bind for clisp and the docu just complains about implementations which do too many cons's and i'm not sure why that's bad 21:53:20 gigamonkey: how so? 21:53:24 There is also a class of newbie mistakes that are characterized by lots of consing and--more importantly--using n-squared algorithms. 21:53:50 brill [n=brill@0x57386175.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:53:51 felix^^: my first answer was mostly facetious. 21:54:06 archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:15 gigamonkey: ok.. 21:54:42 Roughly speaking, allocating memory, i.e. consing, is work. Both on the allocation side and then later when the garbage collector has to collect the garbage. 21:54:48 felix^^: lispers generally use 'consing' to mean 'memory allocation'. 21:54:55 So don't do work you don't need to do. 21:55:18 Unless it serves some other purpose such as making your code simpler to write, easier to understand, less error-prone, etc. 21:56:19 ok, so what is more efficient to create a list rather than consing? (sorry if that's an obvious question. but my only guess would be that allocating a list gets more efficient if i know its final size) 21:56:37 felix^^: there is no more efficient way to create a list. 21:57:05 You could create an array which in some situations could server the same purpose as a list. 21:57:14 And in other situations would be vastly preferable to a list. 21:57:21 And it yet others, would be much worse. 21:57:22 remember, the fastest way to do something is not to 21:58:29 mh i guess my question wasn't helping then. what should i look out for, not to do? 21:58:46 felix^^: to be clear, the only way to make a list is to literally cons (i.e. create cons cells). Other kinds of objects are metaphorically "consed". 21:58:57 profile and see what to do 21:59:12 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 21:59:13 stassats: hmmm, I think profiling can only show you what not to do. ;-) 21:59:25 :) 21:59:29 Hello! 21:59:34 hi MrSpec 21:59:52 felix^^: one thing to watch out for (the class of newbies mistakes I mentioned) is trying to add items to the end of a list. 22:00:19 or in the middle 22:00:25 -!- chessweb [n=chatzill@g228153200.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008121622]"] 22:00:30 using append? 22:00:38 whatever 22:00:39 Things like (setf my-list (append my-list (list item))) are particularly bad. 22:01:04 how about (append (list item my-list)) 22:01:16 sorry (append (list item) my-list) 22:01:23 Not as bad but still silly. 22:01:30 Just do (cons item my-list) 22:01:34 that's (cons it... to late 22:01:38 *too 22:02:08 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-57-64.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.14/2008120416]"] 22:02:11 mh ok i understand that part now, thanks :) 22:02:17 (append (list item) my-list) is essentually equivalent to (cons (car (cons item nil)) my-list) 22:02:41 By the same token, however, experienced people will cheerfully cons a bunch of stuff to be thrown away, but they know what they're doing and what the performance implications are. 22:03:26 nyef: what would be an example case? 22:03:37 felix^^: For instance, you will often see (push x list) (push y list) ... (nreverse list) 22:04:08 Where the PUSHes are probably in a loop. They are consing items onto the front of a list which is then reversed. 22:04:32 Actually, from a consing point of view that's not a good example since the use of NREVERSE instead of REVERSE recycles the cons cells. 22:04:56 felix^^: I recently had a case where I had a list of integers. I used mapcar to build a list of derived values, followed by apply to pass them all to a function that took an &rest list, knowing that the use of &rest would require that all of the arguments be converted back into another list. 22:05:47 nyef: i see :) 22:06:02 felix^^: Another example, similar to nyef's would be writing a set of nested MAPCARs rather than one MAPCAR with a hand-written composition of the functions you want to apply. 22:06:04 I knew that it wasn't particularly efficient, but it only had to run a couple times before I would know that I had the right approach, and thus wasn't particularly time- or space-critical. 22:08:28 so one hint would be to avoid passing information as lists for example if they are only pairs? 22:09:01 felix^^: perhaps. But unless you have a lot of pairs it's unlikely to matter much. 22:09:04 -!- brill [n=brill@0x57386175.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 22:09:09 That's where the profiling comes in. 22:09:53 Probably more important is whether you think of them as pairs or as lists that happen to be two items long. 22:10:36 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:11:02 ok 22:11:16 and this one: don't reconstruct lists if you don't have to? 22:11:36 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 22:12:01 http://l1sp.org/pcl/nreverse 22:12:07 that's more general, don't do expensive computations if you don't have to 22:12:14 Bah, sorry, wrong link. 22:12:43 felix^^: you might want to read this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html 22:12:44 stassats: well the difficult thing for me is that i don't necessarily know what an expensive computation is 22:12:48 -!- knightblader [n=da465415@monroe.cs.ucf.edu] has quit ["User disconnected"] 22:13:07 gigamonkey: ok, will do. thanks. 22:13:18 felix^^: such that consume resources 22:13:26 cpu, memory, etc. 22:13:48 Particularly the sections on '"Destructive" Operations' and 'Combining Recycling with Shared Structure' 22:14:41 stassats: right, that's a little circular isn't it :) 22:14:56 gigamonkey: got it open, thanks again! 22:15:42 felix^^: and here comes profiling 22:16:02 algorithm complexity, etc. 22:16:12 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:16:45 felix^^: The good news is, at least as far as list manipulation goes (i.e. dealing with actual cons cells) it's pretty easy to understand what kind of consing most of the built in list functions are going to do. 22:17:22 So you assign unit cost to CONS itself and then you can figure out how expensive all the rest are relative to that. 22:18:51 hefner annotated #74252 with "asm light macrology" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74252#1 22:19:13 mh so one more question: would (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons ... (cons '())))) be more/less/equally efficient as (list 1 2 ...) 22:19:22 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 22:19:41 That would depend on your implementation. 22:20:01 should be equal in SSC 22:20:42 ssc? 22:20:56 Sufficiently Smart Compiler. 22:20:57 sufficiently smart compiler, a mythical beast 22:21:01 ah :) 22:22:24 Certainly (list 1 2 ...) is a lot easier to type ;-) So I'd go with that. 22:23:07 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@92.96.24.188] has left #lisp 22:23:28 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:39 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c213-100-35-238.swipnet.se] has quit ["aoeu"] 22:23:39 and you certainly wouldn't type so much items to see the difference 22:24:17 true 22:24:35 minion: acl2? 22:24:37 acl2: ACL2 (A Computational Logic for Applicative Common Lisp) is a theorem prover for industrial Applications. http://www.cliki.net/acl2 22:25:36 would seem to me that it would be easier to see the size of a list using (list ), but then again you need to know the size of the contained elements before you allocate anyway 22:25:39 you could use ACL8.1 22:27:25 lispm: I'd rather use SBCL, thanks. :-P 22:27:46 not your fork? ;-) 22:28:12 We'll see what happens over the next month. 22:28:30 what platform will it run on? 22:28:39 felix^^: and don't forget that there are also arrays, hash-tables, etc. 22:29:00 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:29:51 stassats: mh i'm not familiar with any of those in lisp 22:30:17 they are not specific to lisp 22:30:42 mh so arrays are immutable in size 22:30:54 no 22:31:00 there are adjustable arrays 22:32:25 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:32:40 lispm: Presumably on his forked platform. <-: 22:33:14 hardware/processor/os? 22:33:38 nyef: you are porting not to arm-eabi, right? 22:34:26 -!- archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:34:43 stassats: I have the start of an ARM port. It is to whatever ARM system I happen to have. Specific ABI conformance may be negotiable later. 22:35:23 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:36:24 ok, but i doubt i would run sbcl on my 128mb ram device, anyway 22:36:53 Yeah, I probably wouldn't run it in anger on my box either. 22:38:27 hrmn. there's a minion instance in #scheme. 22:38:42 *stassats* installed guache scheme on it, but it was more fun figuring out why it didn't compile rather than actually using it 22:39:09 Fade: he is trolling schemers? 22:39:24 it's unclear :) 22:39:53 ah, it's the same instance. 22:39:57 that's funny. 22:41:13 cads [n=max@c-71-56-69-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:18 cads_ [n=max@c-71-56-69-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:26 -!- cads_ [n=max@c-71-56-69-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:42:48 newbie question: the #1=-part, what is it about? 22:43:18 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:43:42 you can substitute -part with #1# 22:44:17 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:44:29 felix^^: it's syntax for circular and shared structure 22:44:48 #n= names something and #n# mentions it again 22:45:43 uh so it is referencing itself? 22:46:31 -!- quamaretto [n=millij@70.228.181.122] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:47:55 clhs 2.4.8.16 22:47:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm 22:48:08 stassats: yupp found it a minute ago :) 22:48:27 clhs #* 22:48:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhd.htm 22:50:30 drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:50:59 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:53:35 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:56:26 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-68-101.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:15 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:42 -!- drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:00:43 drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:02:03 drdo````` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:03:22 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 23:03:50 Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has joined #lisp 23:08:48 Beeet [n=stathis@ppp7-38.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:11:13 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:15:19 felix^^_ [n=fgeller@dslb-088-074-216-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:19 -!- felix^^_ [n=fgeller@dslb-088-074-216-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:25 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:18:33 -!- drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:19:27 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:20:19 felix^^_ [n=fgeller@dslb-088-074-216-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:26 -!- felix^^ [n=fgeller@dslb-088-074-220-068.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:27:49 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:59 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-172.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:34:06 -!- drdo````` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:35:30 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 23:36:33 tritchey__ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:49 -!- realtime [i=sabbath@189.72.27.133] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:37:58 realtime [i=sabbath@189.72.27.133] has joined #lisp 23:38:22 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-131-244.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:39:16 -!- gcopenhaver [n=greg@c-71-206-116-36.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:39:37 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-128-109.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:41:01 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:42:52 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:44:24 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:45:14 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:09 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 23:48:29 -!- ASeventhS [n=ASeventh@cpe-76-175-139-1.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:50:40 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:40 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 23:55:35 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DA3E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"]