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has joined #lisp 07:26:29 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:42 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:27:39 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:30:19 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:30:47 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:30:48 mega1 [n=mega@3e70cb0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:31:12 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 07:32:26 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:14 ReiniUrban [n=chatzill@212-183-63-78.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 07:39:00 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:42:33 mvilleneuve [n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:37 good morning 07:45:26 drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 07:46:17 -!- aundro__ [n=aundro@72.98-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:50:06 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@217.Red-83-35-122.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:52:39 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 07:52:52 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:53:39 (let* ((function (lambda ((insert-a-custom-lambda-list-here) body)) <--- is there a way to do this? 07:54:40 what do you mean? 07:54:42 (flet ((functio ((insert-a-custom-lambda-list-here) 07:54:42 body)))) 07:54:50 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-50-135.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:16 I mean the part where a lambda list is inserted into that lambda 07:55:17 flets are shorter, but that doesn't change the question 07:55:19 pay no attention to wrong parens 07:55:25 lyte [n=lyte@60-242-109-30.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:55:32 you mean build a lambda list from something? 07:55:41 I've tried `,@ and such. Yes. 07:55:54 mle: flets aren't shorter, they are different 07:57:23 sykopomp, ask a question. "is there a way to do this?" relies on 'this' being clear. 07:57:37 ayrnieu: good point, let me clarify, then. 07:58:29 i can think of a lot of use-cases for building these inside a macro, to make a serious of defuns in a macro... but that doesn't seem to be what you're up to 07:59:23 I have a function that builds functions, puts them in an object, and returns that object. 07:59:40 hm. Maybe that's not specific enough. Let me grab some code. 07:59:47 that isn't a question, no. 07:59:57 I'm guessing that was the setup for the question. 07:59:58 (defmacro foo (name (&rest lambda-list) &body body) `(let* ((,name (lambda ,@lambda-list ,@body))))) 08:00:23 oops, minor fix, wait 08:00:35 yeah, I think I'll do the lambda-construction further up in the macro 08:00:37 (defmacro foo (name (&rest lambda-list) &body body) `(let* ((,name (lambda ,lambda-list ,@body))))) 08:00:40 workthrick [n=mathrick@cpe.atm2-0-75314.0x50a7275a.kd4nxx18.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:00:46 (rather, in the macro that precedes this...) 08:01:13 if you are returning the function you probably don't want a flet.... or a let? 08:01:27 (let ((a ..)) a) is kinda silly 08:01:33 -!- drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:01:43 I'm putting the function in an object first, hence the let. 08:01:57 clhs setf 08:01:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_setf.htm 08:02:05 why not just build the object with it already in there? 08:02:13 single assignment :p 08:02:38 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:02:47 aundro__ [n=aundro@76.103-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 08:03:17 mle: yeah, that seems like the best choice. Thanks. :) 08:03:22 Since SETF returns the values of the last assignment, perhaps you could eliminate the LET anyway and just return the results from SETF. 08:04:10 …or build the object with it. That works. 08:04:15 -!- flazz_ [n=franco@qubes.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:04:31 hah. It works now 08:04:34 \o/ 08:07:02 -!- Guest13894 is now known as realtime 08:07:14 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 08:07:23 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-238-216.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:07:52 Hello 08:08:31 flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has joined #lisp 08:08:32 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 08:13:18 Beeet [n=stathis@ppp7-38.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:18:09 drdo````` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 08:22:48 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:22:48 -!- aundro__ [n=aundro@76.103-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:59 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:18 aundro__ [n=aundro@114.44-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 08:33:02 -!- drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:35:25 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:35:53 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:35:58 HG` [n=wells@118.82.169.165] has joined #lisp 08:36:25 ola 08:36:46 tcr1 [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:37:31 nostoi [n=nostoi@217.Red-83-35-122.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:48 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:41:20 aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 08:46:21 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:47:12 -!- HG` [n=wells@118.82.169.165] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:59:39 -!- aggieben_ [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:59:49 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-180.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:01:08 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@217.Red-83-35-122.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:01:53 weirdo [n=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:01:55 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-121-51.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:59 hey 09:02:04 anyone did a system browser for emacs yet? 09:02:13 because i feel like i need one 09:02:51 and if someone already did one, i won't have to learn elisp 09:03:07 cl.el 09:03:09 weirdo: maybe you could ask in #emacs ? 09:03:37 what is a system browser, by the way ? 09:03:50 asdf browser 09:03:53 -!- drdo````` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:04 stassats, yeah :) 09:04:43 3d, necessarily 09:06:24 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:06:48 not really 09:06:55 but editing stuff's hard without a system browser 09:07:34 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 09:07:56 -!- joachim [n=j@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:08:40 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:08:41 i feel like using the closure web browser. both firefox and opera suck horribly 09:08:52 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:08:57 they leak, crash etc 09:09:04 They do? 09:09:12 and closure beats them? 09:09:19 right now, firefox uses 300+ mb of ram 09:09:24 z0d: That's also a good question. 09:09:27 weirdo: RAM is cheap though :) 09:09:29 and it's dog slow when it comes to javascript 09:09:34 oh 09:09:42 z0d, it must, it's written in cl so it's better by definition, ha! :-) 09:09:44 weirdo: You will not have that problem with closure, it does not do javascript. 09:09:45 I'd expect closure to be much slower then Firefox 09:09:45 huh what? 09:09:56 than* 09:09:57 schme, but i can write a javascript impl 09:09:58 :-) 09:10:04 great! 09:10:14 all recent browser JS performance is ok. maybe the javascript program is slow? 09:10:17 well, i first need to write a suitable parser, though 09:10:20 I just disable javascript in ff, and all is well. 09:10:44 jdz, that 'brief' extension for rss is just horribly slow 09:10:49 I dunno.. people say ff gets slow, yet I run it with 70 or so tabs and it's as quick as with one. 09:10:55 and uses not much more RAM. 09:11:12 every ff addon is slow like hell, even when just showing dialogs 09:11:20 ... 09:11:27 Uninstall the addons 09:11:32 problem solved! 09:11:34 buy a real computer! 09:11:45 hehehehe. 09:11:55 And by all means write up the stuff for closure. :) 09:12:05 I expect flash by tomorrow! 09:12:22 i used to browse web sites on a 586, come on! 09:12:30 what's the deal with all this crap? css? ajax? 09:12:48 i used 486 and links 09:12:51 i need to view some text and maybe a picture 09:12:58 css doesn't really slow it down much. 09:13:04 and it all breaks down without some css garbage 09:13:06 or js 09:13:14 some pages simply won't work without js 09:13:19 But yes.. if you want to view some text and pictures.. maybe turn off javascript, and disable that rss addon you mentioned. 09:13:22 because of a registration form, or captcha 09:13:24 So don't use 'em. 09:13:26 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA321.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:13:44 i can't do without brief, builtin rss functionality is inferior 09:13:53 and yeah, i disable js by default 09:13:56 You've gotta decide if you 1) want to view some text and pictures, or 2) use pages with javascript 09:14:11 oh. 09:14:14 eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:14:19 so you don't just want to view some text and pictures. 09:14:28 but what's the deal with people actually writing pages that require javascript to do the most mundane tasks and degrade ineptly, if at all? 09:14:28 you want rss, and javascript for some pages. 09:14:34 then get a real computer :) 09:14:37 They exist to annoy you. 09:15:01 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA5EE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:15:03 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 09:15:07 weirdo: I have the same issue with flash. Ijust avoid using flash sites. no biggie. 09:15:20 opera's pretty acceptable, but it crashes, leaks and they ignore bug reports 09:15:53 so, go ahead with closure 09:16:00 flash's just plain retarded, tiny youtube videos use outrageous amounts of cpu time 09:16:23 There are very sweet flash sites out there, indeed. 09:16:26 very artsy stuff. 09:16:38 HG` [n=wells@118.82.169.165] has joined #lisp 09:16:56 who needs pictures anyway? gopher is all you need. 09:16:58 I'm not convinced closure + javascript + rss will be much more workable on a 586 machine ;) 09:17:16 especially if 300MB of memory usage is an issue. 09:17:40 but go man go! 09:18:41 is mcclim that slow? :) 09:18:48 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 09:18:54 I have no speed issues with it. 09:18:56 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:19:09 But neither do I with firefox. 09:19:32 weirdo: Have you tried Climacs? 09:19:46 -!- ksergio [n=sgarcia@mail.nuecho.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:54 z0d, a while ago, but it didn't look very polished 09:20:11 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@ppp7-38.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:20:13 and there were no docs, the horror, the horror 09:20:17 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-99.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:21:36 yay, overlays, sweet 09:21:53 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-180.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:25 -!- HG` [n=wells@118.82.169.165] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:24:54 weirdo: I don't think there is much more documentation with closure ;) 09:25:20 :) 09:26:08 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:26:26 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:26:33 sulo [n=sulo@p57B4AF21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:27:07 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 09:30:19 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 09:31:55 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-181-189.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:32:02 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:36:04 manuel_ [n=manuel@e178101239.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:36:35 re 09:36:40 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.217] has quit [Success] 09:36:53 manuel_: hi! 09:37:30 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:38:13 aundro_ [n=aundro@151.180-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 09:39:13 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:39:30 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit ["G-stringed"] 09:39:36 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:40:34 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:41:21 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:41:44 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:45 thom_ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:03 Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has joined #lisp 09:47:52 any way to make a value from the inspector pop up in the repl? 09:52:33 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 09:55:31 -!- aundro__ [n=aundro@114.44-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:57:00 adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.46.13] has joined #lisp 09:58:57 what a weird question. 09:59:26 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 09:59:44 elurin [n=user@193.140.230.89] has joined #lisp 10:00:05 why is that? 10:00:29 what do you mean by "pop up in the repl"? 10:00:51 like "Copy to REPL" 10:00:57 stassats, yes :) 10:01:21 slime-copy-presentation-at-mouse-to-repl ? 10:01:29 Well, when I type (inspect something) everything is inserted in the REPL buffer, so I can just copy and paste in that buffer... 10:02:01 -!- lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:02:20 <_8david> M-RET 10:02:29 why is slime-eval-async so slow? 10:02:35 it takes a second ro so 10:02:39 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:02:51 stassats, inspector stuff doesn't seem to be presentations 10:02:58 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 10:03:05 _8david: slime-inspector-copy-down is commented 10:03:05 it's clickable in the inspector itself, but no way to interact with the repl 10:03:49 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.19.211] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:04:33 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70cb0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:04:39 <_8david> commented? 10:04:41 uncommenting it does the trick 10:04:48 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:04:50 _8david: yep 10:05:26 i think that's because of removal of repl 10:05:36 <_8david> oh, its definition is commented out in current slime? That's possible, I'm not in the habit of updating my slime all the time. "WFM" 10:09:05 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@cpe.atm2-0-75314.0x50a7275a.kd4nxx18.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:09:40 workthrick [n=mathrick@cpe.atm2-0-75314.0x50a7275a.kd4nxx18.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:10:20 krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has joined #lisp 10:10:28 -!- krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:11:27 krimpet [n=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has joined #lisp 10:12:19 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:12:39 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 10:12:51 Grilinctus [n=Aankhen@122.163.174.42] has joined #lisp 10:13:04 kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has joined #lisp 10:13:30 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 10:13:44 hello lispers 10:14:18 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@cpe.atm2-0-75314.0x50a7275a.kd4nxx18.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:14:21 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:14:56 workthrick [n=mathrick@cpe.atm2-0-75314.0x50a7275a.kd4nxx18.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:14:59 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.46.13] has quit ["leaving"] 10:16:54 hey kiuma 10:17:04 ave fusss 10:17:23 good morning (I should really be asleep..) 10:17:23 earlier today i watched someone drive a good web GUI project after rewriting it in AIR 10:18:14 even some small things as sorted drop down menus, auto-completion and command history has to be implemented by the developer in AIR (stuff you take for granted in web apps) 10:19:10 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:19:38 What is AIR ? 10:19:40 i watched a box diagram of so much crap i lost count; jboss, tomcat, servlets, xinetd, middleware, blah. up to 8 layers of abstraction to server less than 50 people per http server. ugh! 10:19:54 schme: Adobe's Flash thing for the Desktop 10:20:09 Hmm ok. 10:20:39 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.226.125] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:20:57 I have a big dislike for webapps, so anything that is NOT a web app sounds good to me ;) 10:21:04 <_8david> schme: it's basically a flash plugin running in webkit 10:21:15 ok. 10:21:23 I just won't ask what the heck webkit is then :) 10:21:55 schme: it's apple's web browser engine running on an OS (please don't ask what an OS is ;-) 10:22:02 Oh ok. 10:22:03 hahaha. 10:22:07 No that I know. 10:22:16 I just stay far far away from web shit :) 10:22:40 But carry on with the bashing! 10:22:41 schme: not a smart move. webshit is the future. 10:22:46 running from progress? 10:22:47 What future? 10:23:15 <_8david> Differences to a normal flash plugin: Users don't see any browser controls. You can render HTML using webkit into flash, not just have flash within HTML. Local file access and TCP to arbitrary hosts is allowed, etc. 10:23:21 I seem to manage quite well without knowing shit about it. 10:23:45 the web is the ultimate open platform 10:24:05 <_8david> Technologically, it's trailing Java by years, but the marketing hype is bound to make it popular in some markets. 10:24:09 So how does that make it good for me, eh? 10:24:17 the most ubiquitous shell account you will ever have. 10:24:28 Right.. 10:24:34 AIR and Java != the web 10:24:58 So.. I see no gain for me from learning webtechnologies. carry on. 10:25:20 can applets be written in lisps on the jvm? 10:25:30 you might not be interested in the web, but the web is interested in your market segment 10:25:33 schme: money? 10:25:56 stassats: That would be a good one though :) 10:26:10 the web is (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript, JSON/XML, and Canvas/SVG, server side-sessions, cookies and URL rewriting. the web is writing desktop guis in batchfiles. the web is debugging software by reading log files. the web is unpredictable. 10:26:32 Adamant: That's ok. I don't mind it being interested in selling me stuff :) 10:26:50 schme: more like your job area 10:26:53 weirdo: are you asking whether you can write applets in abcl or clojure? 10:26:58 H4ns, yes 10:27:03 Adamant: Huh? 10:27:12 weirdo: yes. typically, the run times are pretty large, though. 10:27:23 sorry to hear that 10:27:31 schme: competitors! 10:27:37 schme: the Web is absorbing a lot of development that used to be in other areas 10:27:51 4-5mb for ABCL .. not sure about clojure 10:27:56 Adamant: Great. So how does this relate to my market segment though? 10:28:06 if you did other forms of desktop or server programming, now you do it on the web 10:28:10 dmiles_afk: much less than that, i seem to remember less than a meg 10:28:13 Adamant: Ah. I didn't. 10:28:17 ah 10:28:27 H4ns: right on 10:28:46 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-69-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:29:01 stassats: I think that my only use for webshit is maybe for a website to market me and my services. But I reckon I would hire someone to set it up. I can't design pretty pages worth shit. 10:29:08 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:41 fucking christ. i'm 40 miles from home. it's 5:30AM and I'm piss drunk. not a good sign :-S 10:29:41 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.217] has joined #lisp 10:29:50 hahaha 10:30:05 That's excellent. 10:30:08 and talking in #lisp about web 10:30:31 i go 10:30:32 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-121-51.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 10:31:00 netzhansa 5_> l clojure/clojure.jar 10:31:00 -rw-rw-r-- 1 hans hans 493093 Oct 4 21:45 clojure/clojure.jar 10:31:07 I am having my first coffee in 7 days. tastes awful. 10:31:48 Well maybe one should do some webshit. 10:31:59 yah, es moose und squirrel 10:32:03 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:32:16 clojure.jar is up to 1.4M 10:33:14 Hrrm 10:33:14 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:33:15 ayrnieu: the clojure.jar i just showed is the one that runs my planet lisp -> twitter gateway. 10:33:24 Actually one should hire people to do the webshit. 10:33:28 *schme* stops the webrant. 10:33:31 schme: can you stop now? thank you. 10:33:40 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:33:57 H4ns: I just did. 10:34:11 i am ussing DotLisp (.NET version of CLojure) for my secondlife bot.. but migrating ti to ABCL.Net.dll 10:34:23 ti/it 10:34:27 -!- grc [n=user@217.33.170.226] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:34:38 not really an applet though 10:35:29 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:38:05 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 10:44:23 g'day 10:45:16 hey 10:46:42 manuel__ [n=manuel@e178076077.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:48:44 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 10:48:55 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:49:05 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 10:49:16 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:51:46 Krystof: looks like we are near the end of the formalities for getting the article published. 10:52:27 hooray! 10:52:30 So much paper 10:52:49 I gave a copy to Don Byrd, who is (well, was) at the Dagstuhl seminar that I am attending 10:53:03 he's been looking for an excuse to learn French :-) 10:53:08 heh 10:53:11 Do I know him? 10:53:18 author of Nightingale 10:53:26 ah, nice. 10:53:42 also http://www.informatics.indiana.edu/donbyrd/CMNExtremes.htm 10:53:58 and http://www.informatics.indiana.edu/donbyrd/InterestingMusicNotation.html 10:54:30 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 10:54:48 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 10:55:06 I think I have already seen that. It's a very nice reference to have when people want Gsharp to impose rules. 10:55:17 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@e178101239.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:38 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:57:47 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp427.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:00:27 _krimpet [i=fran@sverige.freeshell.org] has joined #lisp 11:02:45 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 11:03:07 -!- _krimpet [i=fran@sverige.freeshell.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:03:15 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Client Quit] 11:05:43 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:07:01 hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279775342.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:07:31 -!- elurin [n=user@193.140.230.89] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:08:17 -!- hsaliak` [n=user@office.osgdc.org] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:08:21 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@e178076077.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 11:10:56 Hmm. I'm trying to get CLISP to compile CLX, but it seems to be confused because all the source is in ".lsp" files instead of .lisp (and the makefiles depend on it)... is there any way to convince CLISP that .lsp is an extension it can load? 11:11:48 doesn't clisp come with clx? 11:13:03 clim frame-manager 11:13:03 Multiple entries found. Try looking up one of: "frame-manager,Protocol Class", "frame-manager,Generic Function" 11:13:08 clim frame-manager,Protocol Class 11:13:08 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/28-5.html#_1546 11:13:23 stassats, not on Win32, I believe 11:13:46 krimpet: and what clx version are you using? 11:13:58 doesn't Krystof's version work on clisp? 11:14:15 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279440879.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:59 stassats, hmm, I downloaded http://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/clisp/packages/clx.sept92f.clisp.tar.gz - is there another one available, one that definitely works on Win32? 11:15:12 sept 92? hmmm 11:16:08 http://clisp.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/clisp/clisp/modules/clx/ and also darcs at http://common-lisp.net/~crhodes/clx 11:16:17 don't know about its workingness on win32 11:17:38 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:17:46 stassats, thanks - I believe "mit-clx" in the former is the one I need 11:19:16 (I've been trying to follow along with this: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.mcclim.devel/1107 ) 11:22:08 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:22:26 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 11:25:26 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:28:23 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:32:19 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:34:22 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc26.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:35:32 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 11:38:15 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:42:03 krimpet pasted "McCLIM compilation error on Win32" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74411 11:42:09 It looks like McCLIM doesn't want to compile, though. 11:42:47 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 11:45:07 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:45:58 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 11:47:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:49:38 <_8david> krimpet: throw in a #-clisp before that set-key and try again 11:49:54 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:53:19 Hmmm. I had to restart CLISP because SLIME locked up, and now I'm getting the error 'there is no package with name #1="CLIM-CLX"' instead - this being after I (without-package-lock () (compile-clx)) as before 11:54:11 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc26.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 11:59:19 -!- segv_ is now known as segv 11:59:39 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:01:18 -!- rottcodd_ [n=user@ppp59-167-39-77.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:01:39 This doesn't seem to be working... I think I'll ssh over to a Unix box and forward the X11 back over here, for now. :p 12:03:43 <_8david> sounds like a plan 12:07:09 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:15 Xlas [n=28@c-4b3e70d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:09:49 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 12:10:37 krimpet: (setf CUSTOM:*SOURCE-FILE-TYPES* '("lisp" "lsp" "cl")) 12:11:52 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:11:58 <_8david> matimago: what is that for? I didn't do that when I used McCLIM on CLISP the last time. 12:12:21 It is to ensure that LOAD finds .lsp files. 12:12:48 matimago, I found that, but it turns out that was the default anyway; I think the package I was compiling was just broken 12:13:12 ok. 12:13:53 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-10-225.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:15:53 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc26.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:16:07 -!- hikoz [n=hikoz@27.183.244.43.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:16:59 A works-out-of-the-box packaged distribution of a Lisp with ASDF-INSTALL, McCLIM, etc. for Windows might be a good thing to have... I might look into putting something together if one doesn't exist yet. :) 12:17:55 Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has joined #lisp 12:18:57 aundro__ [n=aundro@193.214-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 12:19:29 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbfd2f.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:19:58 -!- realtime [i=sabbath@189.72.28.160] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:23 hsaliak` [n=user@cm158.epsilon100.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:23:35 elurin [n=user@193.140.230.89] has joined #lisp 12:27:07 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-132-97.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 12:27:07 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:29:04 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-181-189.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:30:11 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:30:24 emacs' lack of closures is so debilitating 12:31:14 weirdo, lexical-let should let you use closures 12:31:24 krimpet, macroexpand it... 12:31:42 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:31:56 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-141-133.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:32:03 Oh, hmm. 12:32:37 the fsf crowd says it's because it allows for information hiding 12:32:50 which they don't like for some reason 12:32:53 a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has joined #lisp 12:33:24 so everyone's damned for passing shit around because some fsf higher-up says so 12:34:13 -!- aundro_ [n=aundro@151.180-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:34:59 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:35:15 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:35:17 not to mention lack of packages requiring everyone to type prefixed names, like in c 12:35:53 weirdo, do you have a reference for that? I have a hard time believing it 12:36:20 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:37:49 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 12:38:09 I believe the XEmacs folks said RMS's dislike of abstract data structures was one of the firsts points of friction they had. 12:38:41 I do remember that from the jwz's account of the fork story yah 12:38:44 yeah 12:39:01 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:07 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.217] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:39:11 Id be interested in reading about that, guys. 12:39:12 :) 12:39:22 Is there any destructive alternative to APPEND/NCONC, considering PUSH is a destructive derivate to CONS? 12:39:38 elderK, the xemacs fork? 12:39:59 yeah, like 12:40:01 the history behind it 12:40:01 :) 12:40:07 elderK, http://www.jwz.org/doc/lemacs.html 12:40:10 cheers 12:40:14 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 12:40:24 <_8david> PUSH isn't destructive, it just assign a variable. 12:40:29 <_8david> But you're probably looking for alexandria:appendf 12:40:29 xemacs is gone, now, isn't it? 12:40:30 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 12:40:34 http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsSchism has a bunch of links to different sides 12:40:40 _8david, not a variable, a place 12:41:48 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:52 Vi ftw. 12:42:57 :P 12:43:16 vi doesn't even have async 12:43:35 _8david: I see. Thanks. 12:43:37 eh. 12:43:57 Vi is easier to use mobile. 12:44:00 on crappy laptop keyboards. 12:44:07 not to mention, Vi is everywhere and on anything... Emacs isnt. 12:44:09 :P 12:44:20 vi is included with literally every Unix. 12:44:22 or almost. 12:44:22 :p 12:44:38 Finally, Vi is "holy" in old Norse mythology. 12:44:39 Apaprently. 12:44:40 :p 12:45:02 s/ap/pa/ 12:46:25 'cat' is also included with most unices, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to use as a texteditor :) 12:46:33 Vi is a good _editor_, but not _environment_ 12:46:45 o_O You need an environment. 12:47:11 yes 12:47:11 You can easily map keys in Vi. 12:47:13 To do what you need. 12:47:14 yes, the environment / integrated development environment / unified tool platform / operating system is called unix. 12:47:35 It isn't complicated to add build keys, test keys, etc... 12:47:36 I'll believe SLIME-for-vi when I see it 12:47:37 NCW [n=chatzill@94-193-137-140.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:47:44 It's a matter of taste, really; with vi you spend more time at your shell; with emacs you do more things in the editor. 12:47:47 You can also use Gdb with Vi ... 12:48:00 Actually, I spend most of my time inside of Vi. 12:48:03 But SLIME is what keeps me tied to Emacs, personally. :) 12:48:05 I issue shell commands through Vi. 12:48:13 :!command 12:48:23 But, hey, dont take wrong. 12:48:31 Im not syaing Vi is better or worse than Emacs, just that vi is my taste :) 12:48:33 most common lisp impls are pretty much unusable without SLIME or an analog 12:48:47 Mostly because I use Screen /and/ Emacs. And, I just find that mix fine. 12:49:24 rsynnott: Id consider that a failure of the CL implementation. 12:49:51 Just, depends what you are used to I guess, and how you work. 12:49:52 Yeah? 12:49:53 :) 12:50:14 (Tbh, Ive only tried Emacs twice in my life... Just, bad impression and ever since, Ive used Vi/Vim) 12:50:14 for lisp programming, you really more or less need emacs 12:50:23 <_8david> in the same sense as it is a failure of Sun's Java implementation that you also need to download eclipse to use it effectively? 12:50:33 realtime [i=sabbath@189.72.27.133] has joined #lisp 12:50:35 Whether you prefer shell- and ex-scripts or Emacs Lisp for customization is another aspect. 12:51:00 -!- realtime is now known as Guest89713 12:51:15 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:51:29 Yes, It is. 12:51:32 If the language cnanot be used 12:51:37 without a freaking heavy IDE 12:51:39 then the language is flawed. 12:51:41 And Lisp is not that. 12:51:46 Lisp can be small, and used without an IDE. 12:51:47 I mean, 12:51:56 the Implementations give you that functionality in themselves, basically. 12:52:00 Debugger, etc. No? 12:52:08 At least for CL. 12:52:12 Keep in mind, Im mainly a C programmer. 12:52:13 Can you please send whole sentences? 12:52:16 most impls' repls really aren't designed to be used on their own 12:52:22 it's not that you can't use lisp without slime, but that lisp with slime gives a superior environment 12:52:24 (clisp's is an exception) 12:52:59 I know people that code C like this: vi foo.c; hack hack hack; :wq; make; test; repeat 12:53:08 o_O 12:53:12 Totally the wrong way to do it. 12:53:23 splits, tabs, command keys. 12:53:38 save make output to a split if you wish... 12:53:42 sure, but that does not say anything about the language IMHO. You can use lisp like that if you want 12:53:42 All the environment I need. 12:54:05 I wasnt saying you couldnt. 12:54:07 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 12:54:26 I certainly find lisp terribly irritating to use without slime, and avoid doing so unless it's something quick on a remote machine for which I couldn't be bothered setting up ssh forwarding for swank 12:54:39 <_8david> hacking Java in Vim is fun only with Eclim. 12:54:50 ooh sbcl running in an xterm without the slime. How I love thee ;) 12:55:16 elderK, one of the strengths of Lisp, though, is that it allows you to keep a single image running and send it code to evaluate and recompile 12:55:19 I think Java is only fun, if the alternative is hunting around in a sewer collecting used condoms or smashing my face into a pile of used syringes. 12:55:20 -!- NCW [n=chatzill@94-193-137-140.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 12:55:20 ;) 12:55:44 krimpet: Thats true. 12:55:48 schme: ccl is even worse 12:56:01 (its restarts are truly horrible) 12:56:01 rsynnott: I will make sure to give that a whirl :) 12:56:20 But, afaik - and with my relatively low skill of Lisp, Im most likely to wrong - you can still do that, without something like SLIME? 12:56:28 Having a Lisp-aware editor makes things much easier, and really brings out Lisp's strengths. 12:56:31 Last time I used Sbcl, you could use the interpreter just the same? 12:56:53 you can use the repl without slime 12:57:00 _8david: Will you go to the ILC? 12:57:02 you will probably go mad doing so, but you can if you must 12:57:06 elderK: that java remark sounds like a religious rumbling... 12:57:14 attila_lendvai_: Its not. 12:57:18 :P Its meant as a joke. 12:57:18 no mod cons like tab completion 12:57:20 anyone wants to see/test my system browser? :) 12:57:25 (or, in some cases, backspace) 12:57:38 elderK: I'm curious. What is this Vi == "holy" in norse mythology? 12:57:57 schme, I can send you the book if you would like? Its only like, 16M. 12:58:07 Covers all of Norse mythology, origins and suchlike. 12:58:11 :) Read it one day, for fun. 12:58:15 Made me like Vi even more. 12:58:15 :p 12:58:22 In a geeky way of neatness :) 12:58:40 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 12:58:42 elderK: No, there's no need. Thank you though. I'm just curious about Vi in it. 12:58:55 :) Moment, Ill get the quote. 12:59:06 On the contrary, isn't vi vi vi the editor of the Beast? :) 12:59:17 Depends if you listen to GNU propoganda :P:P 12:59:23 I guess that makes me a sinner. 12:59:24 :p 12:59:58 It's not so much about vi not being a smashing editor.. It sure is! It's just nothing compared to slime for lisp :) 13:00:23 It would be neat if Vi has something similar for Lisp. 13:00:31 <_8david> tcr: yes! (Probably also ELS in Milan. A busy Lisp spring.) 13:00:50 Man, 2G of RAM and my system still cries at times. 13:00:51 How sad... 13:01:03 I remember back when 16M was a decent amount and 64M was like, WOAH. 13:01:12 :/ And so too, back when 256M was like WOAAAAAAH 13:01:15 Now its like, ew. 13:01:16 :/ 13:01:24 elderK: people have tried to make slime-like things for vim at times 13:01:51 Yeah, we've got far more "functionality" now. In some cases, we actually do. In others, the functionality is nothing other than too much eye candy... or using a fatter, slower language. 13:01:56 Really, rsynnott ? 13:02:05 yep 13:02:10 I take it since everyone still likes Slime, it didnt bode well for the Vimfolk? 13:02:10 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 13:02:16 tic is all over that, no? 13:02:16 they have not been notably successful 13:02:32 schme: yep, though I don't think his thing talks to swank 13:02:35 may be wrong tho 13:02:47 _8david: Jim Newton presented Skill and their CASE tool on yesterday's munich meeting. To my naive eyes, CLIM seemed like a perfect fit (I asked whether they considered doing it in Lisp, but basically the application's origin is really from a long time ago, possibly predating CLIM.) Anyway, I thought it may be an interesting discussion point. 13:02:48 What is Swank? 13:02:48 I remember something about netbeans. 13:03:00 *schme* shrugs. 13:03:14 swank is the lisp side of slime. 13:03:33 elderK: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/slime-talk-2008.pdf 13:03:35 schme: there's certainly an eclipse frontend for swank 13:03:39 it's actually quite nice 13:03:45 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 13:04:00 http://www.cliki.net/vim - on the trials and tribulations of vim 13:04:14 rsynnott: Ok. No idea what eclipse is :) I'll check it out! 13:04:42 eclipse is IBM's large, frightening java IDE 13:04:46 <_8david> aha. I've seen Jim's Skill presentations years ago, but never saw a GUI as far as I recall. 13:04:55 Schme, I was wrong 13:05:35 "n another Danish rune-stone the invocation comprises the whole memorial, for on the margin of the stone is engraved: May Thor consecrate this monument! Such a place consecrated or dedicated to the gods is called a Ve or Vi, which name we have preserved in Odense (i.e. Odinsve) and Viborg." 13:05:47 Lisp being largely tied to Emacs rather than vi is probably just tradition more than anything else, since Emacs evolved in Lispy environments, and the Lisp Machines used Emacs. 13:06:19 It's not "just tradition". It's culture. 13:06:19 weirdo pasted "a system browser" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74414 13:06:22 Well, there are some techincalities involved with getting vi and slime to talk together. 13:06:31 *technicalitites 13:06:37 tcr, that's kind of what I meant 13:06:39 krimpet: from what people who've tried swank-vim integration have said, it seems that there is some fundamental issue with vim 13:06:43 aggieben_ [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:46 Ohh. 13:07:00 The fundamental issue is that vim is single threaded by design. 13:07:07 (or vi) 13:07:11 well, so is emacs, no? 13:07:22 elderK: How strange. I have never heard of that. 13:07:23 I thought it was absense of async comms or something 13:07:31 elderK: Thanks. 13:07:41 schme, no problem :) 13:07:57 "Norse Mythology - Mortenson & Crowell" 13:08:17 elderK: I have a couple of mates who claim to believe in the old faith, I assume they will laugh at me and say everyone knows that. 13:08:36 Hahahaha. 13:08:38 manuel_ [n=manuel@p57BBA321.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:08:39 :P Awesome! 13:08:51 I wanted to learn because apparently Ive got some Scandinavian origin to me. 13:08:58 Besides. 13:09:07 I wanted to know more about Thor and Frey and Odin and such 13:09:08 :) 13:09:11 *schme* shrugs. Personally I find it about as stupid as believing in christianity or any other madness. But hey that's just me ;) 13:09:14 there are some vim async patches 13:09:25 but it's not the only issue 13:09:32 *schme* stops OT 13:09:38 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has left #lisp 13:09:42 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:09:44 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has left #lisp 13:09:46 schme: it has often been argued that polytheistic religions are somewhat LESS harmful than monotheistic :) 13:09:47 :P Welcome back, oh Odin! 13:09:48 :p 13:09:53 So, there's likely just not enough demand from users to completely re-engineer Vim to fit something SLIME-like on. Especially since viper-mode eliminates any real reason for doing so. :) 13:10:14 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:10:17 schme, i believe in the Great Kitteh Mother in Teh Sky 13:10:35 weirdo: unless she's a LOLCat, you're a heretic 13:10:38 krimpet, would you recommend at least trying Slime and the like, as a nicer way to become familiar with Lisp? 13:10:39 Client fuckups are fun. 13:10:52 Anyway. Did someone say they were interested in the old norse mythology? 8) 13:10:53 weirdo: But.. the spaghetti monster? :( 13:11:00 elderK: Most definitively, yes! 13:11:02 :D 13:11:02 Me! 13:11:07 schme: his appendage is noodly 13:11:13 Adamant, the Great Kitteh Mother soothes the suffering of the living being with Her Benevolent Purring 13:11:29 elderK, of course - SLIME is excellent for learning Lisp. 13:11:35 rsynnott: I guess.. Dun' really matter. Religion doesn't kill people, chuck norris kills people :) 13:11:36 tcr, I worry that sometimes Lisp isnt for me - because well, I tend to be /insanely/ pedantic about Memory use. 13:11:42 weirdo: yeah, but does she have pics on icanhazcheezeburger? 13:11:45 Knowing me, Id want to write a Linker in Lisp. 13:11:52 what's that about slime's appendages? 13:11:54 -!- aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:12:18 Adamant, no. and might i add, Kittehs are Her bodhisattvas and an object of worship 13:12:21 elderK, have you read "Practical Common Lisp"? That's what got me hooked on it, personally. 13:12:36 elderK: lisp takes care of the memory use for you. 13:12:48 Well, aye. 13:12:53 :P Thats what I worry about. 13:12:53 elder: Why? 13:12:53 :P 13:13:06 I've spent the past 4 years working... far below normal. 13:13:08 Foreign function interfaces have to deal with linkers, don't they? 13:13:22 Embedded stuff. 13:13:25 Systems code, Kernel code. 13:13:32 Just, used to managing it myself, you know? 13:13:56 What got me interested in Lisp, was, well, I was playing with Forth when I was tinkering with SPARC. 13:13:57 elderK: Mess about with Movitz, then? 13:14:14 And from Forth, Ifigured I would look at Lisp. 13:14:20 Yes.. Lisp is not the good thing for embedded. 13:14:22 well, lisp has a runtime linker :P 13:14:24 And then I figured, itd be good to have a language for 'play' 13:14:39 weirdo: I write my own linkers most of the time, portable, cross platform. :) 13:14:43 Its kind of fun in a sick way, I guess. 13:14:49 to be able to load and use .sos under any system. 13:14:50 (cffi:foreign-funcall "strlen" :string "foobar" :int) => 6 13:14:51 :-)) 13:14:59 oh wait, it's dlsym 13:15:04 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:15:09 I intend to take some of my new linkerey ideas into my kernel. 13:15:13 :) 13:15:20 elderK: http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/ <-- Want to do lowlevel mucking about? 8) 13:15:26 ;):) 13:15:33 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:15:50 I also spent some time reading some old Lisp interpreter sources. 13:15:59 -!- bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:16:03 :P Was thinking a program I will write for Amethyst's userspace si a Lisp interpreter. 13:16:07 That'd be cool :) 13:16:21 bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:33 http://tehran.lain.pl/stuff/asdf-browser.jpg 13:16:57 Amethyst? 13:17:08 Oh you had to ask, didn't you? 13:17:40 I did, yes. I'm a curious fellow. 13:17:44 what's so great about interpreters? 13:17:50 Sold an eye for increased wisdom, for instance. 13:17:50 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:18:01 krimpet, tcr, schme: I've read the majority of Practical Lisp. 13:18:14 Also downloaded a metric @!#$ton of books (I love you Bit torrent...) about Lisp. 13:18:15 :) 13:18:20 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 13:18:21 weirdo: I hear they make good money. 13:18:24 but, im still a newbie. 13:18:36 working as an interpreter I mean. 13:18:44 around these parts, code compiles to native. implicitly :P 13:19:19 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-58-237.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:19 That's a valid way to write an interpreter 13:19:30 G'morning all. 13:19:33 *krimpet* has a friend that's an ASL interpreter... hard to compile that sort of language. :) 13:19:36 Moin Nyef. 13:19:45 hi nyef 13:19:47 Hi nyef 13:20:22 weirdo: that depends :) 13:20:41 sign language? 13:21:26 mega1 [n=mega@3e70cb0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:23:31 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:23 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4BC5C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:25:31 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:58 -!- a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:29:33 Wasn't there a presentation at boston-lisp-meeting within the past year on "the meaning of english words as programs" or some such? 13:30:02 Could that be generalized to ASL to allow for compiling "that sort of language"? 13:32:13 -!- jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [] 13:33:52 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:35:35 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 13:35:56 -!- bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:36:18 bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:28 -!- sulo [n=sulo@p57B4AF21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:43:54 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 13:44:49 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-23-251.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:45:32 xan__: Are you there? 13:46:42 prxq [n=mommer@Zc23f.z.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 13:46:49 hi 13:46:54 hi 13:48:05 -!- kg4qxk [n=kg4qxk@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:49:21 -!- krimpet [n=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has quit ["My hosiery is bunching..."] 13:52:04 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [] 13:53:22 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 13:53:36 -!- jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Client Quit] 13:55:34 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:32 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:01 aundro_ [n=aundro@97.189-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 13:58:03 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-181-189.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:59:06 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-23-251.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:01:08 aundro [n=aundro@139.217-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 14:01:12 -!- bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has quit ["whut"] 14:01:28 Anyone recently (the last year or so) use any of the CL GTK bindings and can comment on them? Bonus points for using them on multiple platforms. 14:01:48 bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:53 -!- bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:02:26 bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:50 aerique: I tried clg. I had to hack it up a bit before it would compile, and the documentation is minimalist, outdated, and doesn't mention important things like how to actually run a main loop, but other than that it was fairly impressive. 14:03:51 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:03 I experimented with clg a while back, and was able to get it kinda-working with the macos native GTK thing 14:04:23 I found it a very strange library, though 14:04:25 danlentz [n=dan@c-68-46-6-17.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:02 rsynnott: in what kind of state are your wxwindows bindings? 14:05:04 -!- drafael|Uni is now known as drafael 14:05:43 they can make a window with buttons on it that does something :P 14:05:50 I really must get back to that :) 14:05:56 As I recall, once you take the list of bindings and eliminate all those that communicate over pipes to a separate process for the ui and all those that have a gpl-derived license, you end up with two options, and clg is one of them. 14:06:05 (have been distracted with real-work :P) 14:06:28 -!- aundro_ [n=aundro@97.189-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:06:29 nyef: there's also lambda-gtk and a couple of other odd-ball GTK bindings 14:06:35 *dlowe1* is rather fond of the idea of a UI server. 14:06:36 nyef: which one is the other one? 14:06:55 and there's the old wxcl, which is still usable if you're not on a mac and don't want unicode 14:06:59 aerique: I forget? 14:07:01 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:07:18 i used gtk-server in a previous project which i great to quickly hack something up but started to get suboptimal once my UI got more complex 14:07:29 hi! 14:07:37 I could totally see a standard protocol being made for complex high-level UI, much like X for low-level UI 14:07:44 Hello Fare. 14:08:11 Fare: good morning 14:08:17 mixing cl with a c-centric library like gtk is a huge problem. Efforts tend to falter just because of that. 14:08:34 it beats mixing cl with a c++ library 14:08:44 dlowe1: granted :-) 14:08:47 dlowe1: that protocol would take some specifying 14:09:07 so what's the "right thing" to deal with unix filenames whose path don't properly encode as utf8? always use bytes instead of characters? do some funky encoding with escapes? 14:09:13 Fare: fyi, we have two tickets booked for ELS'09, so i'll be there 14:09:21 anyway, thanks for the comments. i'll start off with trying clg once i get home 14:09:36 attila_lendvai, nice. My gf has vacations just that week, so we could fly to Milano. 14:10:43 the whole GUI thing really is a little unsatisfactory 14:10:52 there are many things which are CLOSE to being a solution :) 14:11:37 I think clg just needs a little more attention paid to the documentation, and one or two bugs cleaned up, and it'd be quite usable. 14:12:07 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:40 nyef: how does it handle the unwind problem? i.e, what does it do if a callback has an error and you have no choice but to return to toplevel? Does it handle that gracefully? 14:12:59 nyef: glade seems to be supported so that's good 14:13:05 prxq: SBCL in general only handles that gracefully on Win32. 14:13:35 so you have to restart sbcl on error? 14:13:39 I am -right now- looking at what would be involved in making it not suck on linux x86-64 and linux arm. 14:14:00 -!- aundro__ [n=aundro@193.214-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:14:01 nyef: that's good news! what is the technique? 14:14:27 Have to use the system-provided APIs for both sides of unwinding. 14:14:38 (Both unwind-protect and requesting an unwind.) 14:15:07 SBCL hails from the days before systems tended to provide such APIs, and it shows. 14:15:28 aerique: have you tried ltk? 14:15:59 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:16:07 And with the unwind information being stored out-of-line these days, it gets worse, particularly since the ABIs don't specify an API for associating unwind info to dynamically-created code, leaving it as an OS/library function. 14:17:13 So I now know where to start for windows x64, but have yet to track down the corresponding APIs for linux ARM and linux amd64. 14:17:27 Or linux x86, for that matter. 14:18:12 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [No route to host] 14:18:30 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:19:13 trying to get SBCL to output native-ABI calling conventions? 14:19:24 Unwind conventions, primarily. 14:19:40 And right now I'm just scoping it out, not actually planning on implementing. 14:20:09 prxq: yes i have 14:20:37 so you don't have to have a some special conversion frame to catch all and propagate the unwinds? 14:21:18 Do we have that now? 14:21:36 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.217] has joined #lisp 14:21:41 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-6-135.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:21:50 AFAIK, the only platform that SBCL actually does the right thing with cross-language unwinds for is win32. 14:22:05 Which is almost embarassing, really. 14:22:23 it's a bit ironic 14:23:48 The -other- trick to this would be tying the same information into the debugger, and persuading it to use the host APIs for stack unwinding, as that would get reliable backtraces, at least as far as finding the right frames. 14:23:48 If we create pclass with pset like the example, is there a easy way to know who have added me as a friend? http://common-lisp.net/project/elephant/doc/elephant.html#Persistent-collections 14:24:34 *mvilleneuve* is looking for a good, small (14" max) laptop to run Linux and SBCL (among other things)... anyone has suggestions? 14:24:49 mvilleneuve: thinkpad! 14:24:56 could you dynamically generate and map/fake the "static" debug information for your generated code? 14:25:03 mvilleneuve: The Dell m1330 is actually really nice. 14:25:04 (I forgot that it should have a docking station) 14:25:13 mvilleneuve: oh. Go with lenovo, then 14:25:16 mvilleneuve, I'm mostly happy with my Thinkpad X300 14:25:28 Fare: I am using the same one :) 14:25:29 no docking station, thoug 14:25:39 mvilleneuve: best check that power management and so on works properly on linux 14:25:43 before buying 14:25:48 tomoyuki28jp, sugoi! 14:25:59 hadn't realised docking stations still really existed 14:26:09 I'm using a Thinkpad T400 at work at the moment but running (walking?) Windows 14:26:14 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:26:23 it's quite nice indeed 14:26:26 (I just plug in a usb cable and a monitor when at home :) ) 14:26:59 rsynnott: can you use it this way and keep it closed? 14:28:33 rsynnott: Could you answer to my question which has posted at 23:23? I am having a question regarding pset of elephant. 14:28:36 I think many laptops will shut down (or "hibernate") when closed 14:29:04 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 14:29:21 mvilleneuve: I thought that was a mostly-software-configurable behavior? 14:29:28 mvilleneuve: at least under windows, that is configurable 14:29:35 that's why I'm thinking that I need a docking station, with a power button and ports for screen and keyboard 14:29:46 ah, that's interesting 14:30:10 mvilleneuve: docking stations are nice, but you could get much the same functionality with a bluetooth mouse and keyboard 14:30:22 mvilleneuve: my mac screen is acting like such a docking station at the moment 14:30:42 except for power, ethernet and sound :D 14:30:44 mvilleneuve, my X300 unhappily won't shutdown when closed, but I'm sure there's a way to do it indeed. 14:31:03 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc26.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 14:31:27 I plug in a USB kbd+mouse (through kbd hub) and am happy 14:31:32 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc26.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:31:51 dlowe1: actually, I don't have a problem with plugging cables, I'm only concerned about being able to use the laptop closed 14:32:02 can be used closed indeed 14:32:03 mvilleneuve: that's software configurable in both linux and windows 14:32:23 that sounds like very good news 14:32:31 my only real trouble with X300 is I couldn't get the external screen working under Linux, though others said they had no problem. 14:32:40 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 14:32:43 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [] 14:32:44 -!- dlowe1 is now known as dlowe 14:33:41 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-212.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:33:59 -!- elurin [n=user@193.140.230.89] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:26 http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkWiki for all your thinkpad needs. 14:34:39 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:34:41 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:17 tomoyuki28jp: can you repeat it? I think I'd gone to bed :) 14:35:43 mvilleneuve: no, my laptop doesn't believe in running while closed 14:35:43 _workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 14:35:44 heat reasons 14:36:10 If we create pclass with pset like the example, is there a easy way to know who have added me as a friend? http://common-lisp.net/project/elephant/doc/elephant.html#Persistent-collections 14:36:59 don't think so 14:37:18 for that, you might be better using either a btree or a special 'friend-relation' object 14:37:56 rsynnott: ok 14:38:02 you may find peoples' writings on many-to-many relatinoships in the google app engine db model useful; it's quite a similar model 14:38:06 well thanks a lot everyone 14:38:27 I'll check the X300 out, as well as others 14:39:06 X300 is the bestest! It became really cheap. (used to be expensive) 14:39:43 zorgzorg2 [i=marra@130.236.136.254] has joined #lisp 14:39:56 rsynnott: What do you mean by "a special 'friend-relation' object"? 14:39:58 hi 14:40:01 hi 14:40:16 rsynnott: Other pclass to mapping the relations? 14:40:23 drewc, are you around ? 14:40:53 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@p57BBA321.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 14:42:42 -!- drafael [n=drafael@ip-118-90-142-115.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 14:43:56 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:45:19 EXetoC [i=EXetoC@c-c791e155.1422-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:46:08 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:46:19 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:23 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 14:46:34 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:44 tomoyuki28jp: yep 14:46:58 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:47:09 rsynnott: I see. Thanks for your help :) 14:47:15 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 14:47:49 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:24 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:42 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:49:54 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:50:32 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:17 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@cpe.atm2-0-75314.0x50a7275a.kd4nxx18.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:55:23 LostMonarch [n=roby@host240-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:57:01 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:57:06 -!- meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:57:12 meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 14:59:22 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:59:23 Eleanore [n=a@c213-100-35-238.swipnet.se] has joined #lisp 14:59:33 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:39 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:50 Well, googling for "clg clisp windows" certainly gives interesting results. 15:00:59 Fare [n=Fare@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:55 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.207] has joined #lisp 15:02:34 demmeln [i=demmeln@atradig111.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:23 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C5FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:42 i'm trying to make my own multiplication function. how can i transform the list created by &rest into individual arguments when recursing? up until now i've used cdr which is obviously wrong since i'll end up with a list of lists 15:05:30 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05:41 EXetoC: apply? 15:05:41 15:10:32 EXetoC: you could try using reduce 15:10:41 EXetoC, got code to share? 15:11:53 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-10-225.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 15:12:14 ok 15:12:55 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-6-135.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:13:24 -!- Fare [n=Fare@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:14:34 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 15:15:38 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:16:15 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:16:20 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 15:16:58 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-212.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 15:16:59 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 15:17:39 jpcooper [n=test@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 15:17:58 could anyone give me some pointers towards things that will automatically make a printer and reader for objects? 15:21:37 jpcooper: are you looking for serialization libraries maybe? 15:21:53 yes 15:21:56 that's the word I was looking for 15:23:27 krimpet [i=Krimpet@wikimedia/Krimpet] has joined #lisp 15:24:37 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 15:25:10 jpcooper: for the short term there is the possibility of storing things in fasls. That fails on version upgrade (thus the short term part). Hash tables are a problem, as are functions. 15:25:22 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp427.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:25:39 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:25:51 prxq, I guess that I could convert hash-tables to lists 15:27:23 I think I'll have a look at cl-store 15:28:22 http://paste.lisp.org/display/74418 the first is a binary function, and the rest of the second one is not worth pasting as it is just random test code that doesn't work. 15:28:41 -!- _workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:09 i couldn't figure out how to use apply or reduce in this case, and i prefer to do things manually at the learning stage 15:30:15 What do you think are you learning by doing this? 15:31:19 So, hmm, I've got SBCL running under gdb, trying to debug cold-init. cold-sbcl.map says !COLD-INIT is at 0x100334F511 but gdb says "Cannot insert breakpoint 1. / Error accessing memory address 0x100334f511: Input/output error." 15:31:21 recursion and CL? 15:31:24 Any tips? 15:32:38 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:32:52 EXetoC: Recursion, yeah, CL less so. If you want to learn recursion by heart I recommend the book Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs. 15:32:59 luis: It's probably a write-protected page. 15:33:40 EXetoC: to learn recursion, you would have to learn the base case, and then to learn recursion. Oops. No serriously, I meant: to learn recursion, read the Little Schemer (and following books). 15:33:41 luis: I'd actually break at call_into_lisp and stepi from there. 15:33:58 luis: What's actually breaking in cold-init for you? 15:34:09 Once upon a time there was a Little Lisper book, but it was before CL, and he upgraded to the Little Schemer instead... 15:37:11 luis pasted "sbcl cold-init" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74419 15:38:30 right 15:38:37 luis: Hrm. Is this with some changes, or is this stock? 15:39:30 Oh yes, plenty of change. 15:39:35 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:39:57 The main goal is to try and figure out how to debug this sort of stuff. 15:40:23 Reini_Urban [n=chatzill@212-183-62-216.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:40:25 -!- Reini_Urban is now known as rurban 15:40:35 I enabled cheneygc on x86-64 to see what happens. 15:41:10 luis: It seems simpler to me to just disable the generationality in gencgc. I don't think cheney ever worked on x86oids. 15:42:09 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.246.120] has joined #lisp 15:43:16 pkhuong: yeah, but that only involves changing a single variable, I think. Not much to debug there. :-) 15:43:37 luis: ah, university ;) 15:46:35 willb [n=wibenton@wireless93.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:46:35 i'll look em up if my interest remains. now i just wanna figure out how to transform a list into individual arguments 15:46:50 i'll continue reading the tutorial then, thanks 15:47:16 EXetoC: the usual way to do this is to call another function that takes a single argument, a list, from the one with multiple arguments as list. 15:47:20 EXetoC: (loop for individual-argument in list do (something-with individual-argument)) 15:47:34 ;-) 15:47:54 What's the matter with dolist? :p 15:48:33 pkhuong: In his case he wants to fold the list via a binary operation, so REDUCE is the right key which was already mentioned. 15:51:29 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:52 ... and he wants to do this without reduce. (sigh) 15:52:25 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.207] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:52:27 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-44-230.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 15:53:12 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0E78D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:54 Fare: ping 15:56:35 pkhuong: too primitive i guess? anyway i'm looking it up 15:56:43 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 15:57:04 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:57:49 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 15:57:54 -!- ReiniUrban [n=chatzill@212-183-63-78.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:59:27 is there a way to force lisp to print symbols in the |FOO| representation? 16:01:40 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:02:35 Adamant [n=Adamant@AASU-101-61.Armstrong.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:03:18 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 16:05:20 demmeln: no idea, but just out of curiosity: why? :-) 16:05:43 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:48 chupish [n=sedwards@192.58.150.187] has joined #lisp 16:07:24 <_death> (format t "|~A::~A|" (package-name (symbol-package symbol)) (symbol-name symbol)) 16:07:27 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:08:06 kg4qxk [n=kg4qxk@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:23 <_death> erm.. two more |'s there 16:10:09 -!- H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0F228.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:17 doesn't work correctly 16:10:43 <_death> jsnell: with the extra |'s? i.e. |foo|::|bar| 16:10:54 fails with uninterned symbols 16:11:04 fails for '|\ 16:11:06 <_death> ah yeah 16:11:10 err... '\| 16:11:46 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:11:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@AASU-101-61.Armstrong.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:12:15 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 16:12:24 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:20 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.156.31] has left #lisp 16:17:00 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:19:47 pkhuong: i know what you mean now. is it a common solution? it seems like a good idea 16:20:35 -!- zorgzorg2 [i=marra@130.236.136.254] has left #lisp 16:20:49 it's a less bad last resort. Using predefined control constructs is a good idea. 16:21:07 prxq: mcclim or rather the gtkairo backend is generating a file called keys.lisp with a file keygen.lisp. As I understand it the generation happens by the developer, not the user of the library. There symbols like :a :b :c etc are used, but also :|;| and the likes. now :{ :} :[ :] are not escaped with || notation. If you have a reader macro defined on those symbols the code doesn't compile. Obviously this is kind of the users fault for 16:21:40 prxq: so i woundered whether they could just be generated with :|...| to be safe 16:22:00 No "kind of" about it. It is absolutely the users fault for monkeying with the standard readtable. 16:22:28 Alternately, for implementations which do the same, it is the implementations fault. 16:22:30 nyef: those characters are used as reader macros even in on lisp, as i recall 16:22:46 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit ["going to moon brb"] 16:22:46 So? 16:22:58 so i doesnt hurt to support it 16:23:24 Umm... Yes it does. 16:23:31 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 16:23:31 nyef: how come? 16:23:52 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has left #lisp 16:24:03 demmeln: you have a reader macro on :{ or on {? 16:24:08 The amount of trouble you're going to. 16:24:20 { [ ] } 16:24:21 those 16:24:30 The real fix for your problem are my named-readtables 16:24:31 <_8david> the solution is to restrict read table changes to only the files they are meant to affect using editor-hints 16:24:34 that sounds pretty legitimate 16:24:48 fe[nl]ix, pong 16:24:56 pkhuong: i don't know what you mean but thanks 16:24:57 jsnell: any news from the CFASL patch? 16:25:00 Fare: http://repo.or.cz/w/iolib.git?a=commit;h=HEAD 16:25:01 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Client Quit] 16:25:02 tcr, _8david: i guess that would be even better 16:25:02 A short-time fix may be not to make those reader macros terminating, but only non-terminating 16:25:21 fe[nl]ix, I git pulled already 16:25:26 EXetoC: use reduce, map, mapcar, etc. Don't roll your own. 16:25:47 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 16:25:53 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 16:26:03 It's pedagogical to implement them on your own. But if you do so, please implement them according to the spec, and completely. 16:26:03 tcr: i have an easy fix: manually adding those 8 vertical bars 16:26:26 A short-term fix might be to (let ((*read-table* (copy-readtable nil))) ). 16:26:32 fe[nl]ix, how do you plan to handle a filename with latin1 (or koi8-r) characters that aren't valid utf-8 (when say using SBCL in utf8 encoding mode) 16:26:39 tcr: but i thought of a general fix for everyone 16:27:04 nyef: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (setf *readtable* (copy-readtable nil))) suffices, *readtable* is bound by compile-file akin to *package* 16:27:08 <_8david> also, keys.lisp doesn't work very well anyway 16:27:24 nowl [n=nowl@c-66-30-79-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:46 tcr: Yes, because I really want that at the top of all of my files in order to protect against reader-macro-wielding maniacs. 16:27:56 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 16:27:59 tcr: i'll have to read about named-readtables or restricting the reader macros to certain files. Its not even me who defined those macros. they are just in the system i work in... 16:28:03 nyef: I beg to differ! You want (in-readtable :standard)! 16:28:05 Fare: you mean adding :EXTERNAL-FORMAT when parsing OS file names ? 16:28:31 possibly 16:28:52 and/or having some kind of encoding of pathnames that is external-format agnostic 16:28:54 demmeln: Named readtables isn't ready yet. I'll continue the work after exams. 16:29:16 so that the meaning of your pathname doesn't magically change when you switch *external-format* or something. 16:29:40 -!- Liempt is now known as Ioannes 16:29:45 demmeln, to restrict reader macros to certain files... work on XCVB! 16:29:57 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4A836.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:30:31 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host240-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:30:45 _8david: what do you mean? 16:31:21 tcr: cool. keep me in the loop. 16:31:22 fe[nl]ix, so you don't use osicat anymore? what happened? 16:31:24 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:33 -!- nowl [n=nowl@c-66-30-79-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:31:35 tcr: its not a big problem atm. just woundering 16:31:53 tcr: and that would be great to clean up the monster of system here at the chair :) 16:32:12 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:32:38 Lenz said he'll spend the next weeks on an overhaul 16:33:10 *Fare* fe[nl]ix salve 16:33:22 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:33:23 tcr: if i'm correct he wants to change the stuff that uses those reader macros anyway... i'll talk to him. 16:33:28 go to catch a train now 16:33:42 Fare: I'll have a look at it 16:33:53 diog3n3s [n=chatzill@97-118-149-218.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:15 milanj [n=milan@79.101.180.253] has joined #lisp 16:34:50 Fare, fe[nl]ix: every now-and-then i meet files on linux with ? in their names, they are probably encoding errors in utf-8. it would be good if there was a way to have unix pathname objects that do not try to unnecessarily decode the name, unless some operation requires it. (btw, such files break sbcl's cl:directory call, i have one at hand for more info) 16:35:50 -!- demmeln [i=demmeln@atradig111.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:36:04 huh. do you know what character is showing as '?' in the filename? 16:36:12 yes, the way I see it, unix pathnames are to be stored as a wrapper to 0-terminated string of bytes. 16:36:18 (attila_lendvai) 16:36:45 when you try to print them or intern them, THEN the external-format is consulted 16:36:52 Fade: no, and i'm not interested in it unless i can help someone with the info 16:36:58 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.229.88] has joined #lisp 16:37:11 (and depending on PRINT-READABLY, something is done or not to escape such non-printable characters) 16:37:41 xD5456cF 16:37:41 although, iird, i could copy-paste it, or maybe used wildcards to get done what i wanted... can't remember 16:37:50 <_8david> lock all kernel developers into a room, and don't let them out until they agree to enforce UTF-8 filenames at the syscall boundary 16:39:23 _8david: How would that work with non-UTF-8 filenames on disk? 16:39:29 and suddenly all kernel calls include lookup of huge unicode tables to make sure your unicode is correct and properly normalized 16:39:30 wouldn't that technically break POSIX in some way? 16:40:09 and sucks to be you if unicode or the kernel ever makes one of your former files inaccessible, the directory unremovable, etc. 16:40:22 or at least break existing filesystems that have files named in some extended-ascii 16:40:31 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:49 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-6-16.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 16:41:10 _8david: Did I mention that I figured out how to get the x86 relocation fixup recording moved from cold-init to genesis, thus not screwing up relocating cold-core code objects on x86? 16:41:33 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 16:41:45 which is cold-init and which is genesis? 16:41:58 <_8david> yet another patch? (I haven't even tested your first diff yet, but it looked clever.) 16:42:07 i wonder if plan9 did unicode normalisation on unicode filenames. 16:42:26 rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-2de7afbe9d2893ca] has joined #lisp 16:42:45 Fare: genesis is a specialized fasl loader that runs on the build host to produce a cold-core. Cold-init is the process that runs in a cold-core to make the system actually usable. 16:43:36 _8david: No patch yet, as getting it to work highlighted a lot of cruft that should be removed first. 16:44:12 I'm hoping to get it sorted once code freeze is over. 16:44:30 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4BC5C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:31 <_death> fe[nl]ix: is it ok to pm? 16:45:07 _death: always :) 16:47:33 -!- diog3n3s [n=chatzill@97-118-149-218.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 16:48:17 fe[nl]ix, i've decided that the right way to recurse through directories is with a functional reduce-type interface that lets you accumulate some result as you recurse. 16:49:15 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:33 could you paste a use example somewhere ? 16:49:45 I'll try. 16:49:55 I'll send you email if you're not there 16:50:25 etate [n=malune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:51:25 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:36 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:52:44 one big problem is the mismatch b/w unix pathnames and lisp pathnames, especially as to determine whether a pathname (maybe symlink) is a directory pathname or not. 16:52:46 aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:42 -!- birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:53:51 "lock all kernel developers into a room, and don't let them out until they agree to enforce UTF-8 filenames at the syscall boundary" 16:53:54 *hefner* cries 16:54:35 <_8david> Fare: FILE-PATH gets rid of all these mismatches, doesn't it? 16:54:35 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 16:54:47 so long the port of your filesystem to an embedded system with 32KB of ROM. 16:55:23 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 16:55:41 _8david, if you're talking about iolib/pathnames/file-path -- it's broken, because it uses characters internally instead of bytes. 16:55:54 <_8david> yes, well. Aside from that. :-) 16:56:08 -!- weirdo is now known as weirdo2 16:56:14 -!- weirdo2 is now known as weirdo3 16:56:36 now if you use bytes, wild-card pathnames will become "interesting", if you want to reimplement something that's a superset of the CLHS. 16:56:49 -!- weirdo3 is now known as weirdo 16:56:50 yakman_ [n=user@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:57:09 wild pathnames are kind of stupid 16:57:33 I'm not going to disagree here 16:57:59 but *IF* you want to be compatible with CLHS you kind of need them. 16:58:16 (big *IF*, that I wouldn't invest on, but iolib seems to want to) 16:58:40 <_8david> does it? 16:58:48 Fare: I don't want a superset of the CLHS 16:58:57 I don't want *any* clhs compatibility 16:58:59 ok - much simpler, then. 16:59:01 good. 16:59:36 well, you'll still want a file-path => pathname function (and back?) to be able to deal with LOAD and COMPILE-FILE 16:59:55 but since the CLHS is full of good idea, unless I have a strong reason to go against it, I just copy from the CLHS 17:00:00 (unless you subvert these in every possible implementation, which is fine, too) 17:01:06 no, I prefer not 17:01:53 anyway, I don't have to deal with wild pathnames in converting file-path <=> pathname 17:01:57 just signal an error 17:01:58 indeed 17:02:18 so, what about file-path storing a zero-terminated byte array internally? 17:03:48 (on Unix) (on Windows, might instead be a UTF-16 string or something) 17:03:58 -!- yakman_ [n=user@94-194-134-155.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 17:03:58 (and on Genera, just use pathnames) 17:04:19 Fare: are you solving a real problem? i mean, how many of the lisp systems that you need to build need to be built with foreign or broken characters in their file name? 17:04:26 Fare: let's leave Genera out of this 17:05:49 jfrancis1 [n=ubuntu@72.14.227.1] has joined #lisp 17:06:03 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:07:43 H4ns, it's not just for building lisp systems. 17:08:02 it's to be able to deal with the actual filesystem. 17:08:22 Fare: i'd declare "no symlinks, no foreign characters in version 1" and get on with it. 17:08:32 <_8david> H4ns: I believe that it is actually very common that end-user applications would want to be able to *create* files with arbitrary Unicode characters in them (i.e., use UTF-8), but also be able to *list* and open the user's existing directories (which often contain random Latin-1). 17:09:20 _8david: you can extend every little problem to be huge and then spend your time solving secondary issues. 17:09:31 anyway, have a nice evening. 17:09:34 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA321.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:10:06 eno__ [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:10:35 -!- aggieben_ [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:10:42 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.217] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:11:00 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:11:09 <_8david> FWIW, this has been a real issue for our software. It's not a secondary issue when paying clients demand that their files can be opened. 17:11:41 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 17:11:59 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.149.195] has joined #lisp 17:13:11 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:17 When I define a function inside eval-when with sbcl, I see warning like "redefining xxx in DEFUN". Is that normal? Is there a way to erase the warnings? 17:13:18 <_8david> (Personally I doubt that iolib can solve this problem and still be convenient to use, but that doesn't make the problem go away.) 17:13:41 tomoyuki28jp, you could have a handle-bind muffle those warnings. 17:13:52 -!- mvilleneuve [n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:14:28 _8david, why couldn't it? What's wrong with my plan of keeping file-paths in system-native format? 17:15:12 and providing an API to convert paths or components to/from strings when needed? 17:15:32 _8david: actually, UTF-8b might just solve it. it maps malformed octets to surrogates and the transformation octets => UTF-8b => octets is #'identity 17:15:47 Fare: I will take a look at it. Thanks! 17:16:07 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: that's sick. I like it. 17:16:47 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 17:17:39 see also http://www.go-mono.com/docs/index.aspx?link=T%3AMono.Unix.UnixEncoding 17:17:51 fe[nl]ix, might work to make things printable one way -- but won't provide a one-to-one mapping when needed. 17:17:51 skoptelov [n=skoptelo@host89-251-107-19.hnet.ru] has joined #lisp 17:18:06 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:18:31 fe[nl]ix, you'll still need to distinguish depending on *PRINT-READABLY* 17:18:36 -!- [df] [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has left #lisp 17:18:40 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 17:18:55 fe[nl]ix, when NIL, you can use UTF-8b as default input encoding 17:19:05 when T, you'll have to use escape sequences. 17:19:41 <_8david> Fare: just look at H4ns' reaction to see what I mean regarding "convenient to use". People don't see the problem, and wouldn't understand why FILE-PATH doesn't use real strings. 17:19:44 pkhuong: it's for the sake of learning, so if i can, i'll do it 17:20:05 _8david, they can use namestring of whatever when they want a string 17:20:31 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:32 _8david, or rely on some #p syntax 17:20:43 and it'll just work in most cases. 17:21:24 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.207] has joined #lisp 17:21:46 but when they want to access arbitrary files on their system, it will STILL work. 17:22:09 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:22:41 it's just a matter of providing sensible readers, writers, and APIs. Users do not have to see the bytes inside, unless they want to 17:23:10 Fare: could you elaborate on that, as in a blog entry ? 17:23:11 but the bytes have to be there so that we can access arbitrary files on the native filesystem. 17:23:36 fe[nl]ix, probably. I had started an entry on the topic some time ago. I'll dig it in. 17:23:53 there's been long long long long email threads on this subject on python-dev recently 17:24:20 foom, interesting: link or keywords to jfgi? 17:24:34 you probably don't really want to read the whole thing 17:24:40 it's hundreds of messages long 17:24:43 foom, what was the sensible conclusion if any? 17:25:19 The basic problem is that in python 3, the default 'strings' are now unicode strings, so while before listdir('whatever') returned a list of byte strings, now listdir('whatever') returns a list of unicode strings. 17:25:35 foom, "oops". 17:25:46 similarly for argv, environ 17:25:56 well CMUCL=>SBCL did the same thing at one point. 17:26:05 and it still isn't fixed. 17:26:26 you could always pass a unicode string to listdir, e.g. listdir(u'whatever') before 17:26:49 so the behavior of listdir didn't really change, but the default for naive users did 17:26:54 but I think the "keep native encoding inside" is the most portable/useful approach. 17:27:17 (on the other hand, argv and environ used to be only bytestrings and changed to be only unicode strings) 17:27:26 foom: can you specify byte strings with b'foo' or some such? 17:27:31 Fare: yes 17:28:02 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.180.253] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:28:05 foom: so what if some environment variable is not UTF-8? Python deletes it? 17:28:09 yes 17:28:14 (or argv, or whatever) 17:28:22 for argv python refuses to start up 17:28:29 for environ and listdir, it ignores the invalid thing 17:28:41 wow 17:28:59 but Python3 will finally be great on Plan9 ;-) 17:29:01 does it have lower-level functions to access listdir w/o ignoring ? 17:29:16 listdir(b'whatever') works fine 17:29:25 anyhow, there were two proposals considered 17:29:38 1) ensure all APIs to have both variants 17:29:50 josemanuel [n=josemanu@131.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:29:58 2) use some sort of special decoder to decode the probably-utf8-but-maybe-not into unicode in a reversible manner 17:30:46 #1 has a serious downside: any application which uses the most obvious API has a broken application 17:31:20 #2 also has a serious downside: while you might decode (using the previously mentioned U+0000 trick or utf-8b) a bytestring into a unicode string, the unicode string so gotten is actually just a bytestring in unicode clothing 17:31:51 and if you need to pass that to other APIs (e.g. gtk, qt, whatever) things could go badly 17:32:14 we need something like (2) for (readably) printing FILE-PATHs -- use UTF8b and/or escape when reading, error and/or unescape when writing. 17:32:38 (where reading here is byte=>string, and writing is string=>byte) 17:33:52 ok, so not UTF8b, but error as the default behavior. 17:34:12 (or UTF8b *and* signal a non-error condition?) 17:34:58 foom: it wouldn't be a problem. just use UTF8b in C <=> Lisp 17:35:17 you'd be giving GTK the original octet vector 17:35:56 and if gtk can't cope with it, duh 17:36:01 fe[nl]ix, once again, you probably want to heed *print-readably* and *print-escape* and *FOO-encoding* (or some such) when doing such things. 17:36:23 what do those have to do with talking to C? 17:36:43 *and* keeping the original byte vector internally when you're using such objects. 17:37:08 hefner, the producers/consumers of those byte arrays are the functions of the C API. 17:37:28 hefner, we want to keep what they use unadulterated, so it can be passed around. 17:37:46 -!- aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:56 hefner, any interpretation in terms of (unicode) characters has to be done in a layer above it. 17:38:19 I agree completely, but I don't see what that has to do with printer variables and "*FOO-encoding*" 17:38:55 anyway, I'm delighted to see other people coming around to the side of sanity concerning these things 17:39:04 well, how do you go from byte-array-that-looks-like-a-path to printable path? You heed print-escape and print-readably 17:41:03 printing paths isn't tremendously important. filenames exist for humans; you can mangle them pretty badly and I'll still recognize most of it. that's what xterm/ls/whoever usually does in my C locale, anyway. 17:42:10 I'm still not sure how that answers the question, though. How are you printing the path? By calling C? So give it the octets. 17:42:16 holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 17:42:37 through some other mechanism in CL? cross your fingers and hope your encodings are straight, I guess. 17:42:54 sometimes, the user wants to see the path -- e.g. evaluate the object at the REPL 17:43:04 so I want to print it 17:43:22 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 17:43:50 sometimes, I want to create the object from the REPL, without having to #(119 104 97 116 101 118 101 114 0) 17:44:50 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:44:57 my point is just that this is a separate problem, and while you need the filesystem access itself to work 100%, it isn't critical (or always possible) to be able to print filenames without losing information 17:48:04 and as a bit of an ascii bigot, I don't know how to type anything accented or with foreign characters, so I don't care how they print anyway :) 17:48:20 it is always possible -- that's what escape codes are there for. 17:48:23 *luis* grumbles 17:48:51 hefner, a billion chinamen think just the same 17:49:31 (and chinawomen) 17:49:33 it isn't always possible, because I might not have the right fonts, or the right magic variable in slime set, or whatever, and it will explode 17:50:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 17:50:23 but given that you want this to work when it can, I don't have any suggestions on how to acheive that. =( 17:52:08 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 17:52:54 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:53:13 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 17:54:49 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:56:38 -!- hsaliak` [n=user@cm158.epsilon100.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:58:19 -!- jfrancis1 [n=ubuntu@72.14.227.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:59:05 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-141-133.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:59:16 -!- prxq [n=mommer@Zc23f.z.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:00:03 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 18:03:58 bah, screw gdb. Time forr some good old fashioned printf debugging. 18:04:13 krimpet_ [i=Krimpet@wikimedia/Krimpet] has joined #lisp 18:04:32 Good choice. gdb sucks anyway. 18:04:40 -!- krimpet [i=Krimpet@wikimedia/Krimpet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:04:42 -!- krimpet_ is now known as krimpet 18:05:30 sure beats adb and dbx, though 18:05:50 Though, if you are so inclined, I do have some proof-of-concept ptrace stuff in lisp... 18:05:58 nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 18:06:08 fe[nl]ix: it is a problem, because you need to know that you're supposed to use utf-8b (say) to encode that particular unicode string, instead of utf-8. 18:06:11 nyef: couldn't hurt! 18:06:16 consider writing a file with a list of filenames in it 18:06:26 your default file-content encoding is probably utf-8 18:06:47 so now you've used utf-8 to encode some filenames that were decoded via utf-8b. 18:08:04 -!- holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:08:24 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 18:09:48 foom: utf8b is the same as utf8. the only difference is in handling malformed sequences 18:10:41 -!- pierre__thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:11:39 right...so it's not the same. Take a file named "foo\xfe\xfb" (invalid), decode via utf-8b, and then encode back to bytes via utf-8, and now you have the wrong filename 18:11:50 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-065-010.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:04 that's why for accessing the file system, utf8b should be used always 18:12:18 but as I said, this is not for accessing the filesystem 18:12:30 it's writing a file the contents of which is a list of filenames. 18:13:26 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:16 I see no problem there. if you had used utf8 to decode the file name, you'd have had an error, not even allowing you to write the filename list somewhere 18:14:26 luis: http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/unfinished-ptrace-stuff.tgz has the basics, and it's intended to go with http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/object-memory-dumper.txt 18:14:38 why even use utf8b for accessing the file system? the potential utf8-ness of a filename is only of interest when you are displaying that filename. if you're just walking the filesystem, it's unnecessary conversion 18:14:54 hefner: because you're trying to fit things into an API that assumes they are unicode 18:15:06 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 18:15:20 oh, okay. I'm not, but you guys are. :) 18:15:20 hefner: so your choices are: abandon the illusion that filenames are strings, or somehow stuff them into strings 18:15:38 nyef: thanks! 18:16:02 foom: all you can do is make sure that your app handles malformed sequences transparently, and hope that all other external programs you're dealing with can cope with them too 18:16:19 well...hope that they do so in the same way you chose to. 18:17:09 I know what three systems do: gnome uses bytestrings, kde uses characters in the private-use-area, mono uses U+0000 characters. 18:17:24 utf-8b is another reasonable choice 18:17:50 communication between the systems can get complicated. :) 18:17:59 aldebrn [n=afasih@c-24-125-20-134.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:07 they should all be exterminated 18:19:22 anyways, it all sucks 18:21:28 milan [n=milan@79.101.169.224] has joined #lisp 18:22:04 holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 18:22:40 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:22:54 wedgeV_ [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 18:26:33 erlisp [n=genesis@d118-75-6-174.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:34 -!- skoptelov [n=skoptelo@host89-251-107-19.hnet.ru] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:29:17 -!- krimpet [i=Krimpet@wikimedia/Krimpet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:30 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:30 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:32:02 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.149.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:49 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 18:36:37 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:38:37 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:39:30 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:39:47 -!- Grilinctus [n=Aankhen@122.163.174.42] has quit ["“I wish the fully interactive world I lived in was populated by people who react intelligently to their surroundings and situ] 18:40:07 LostMonarch [n=roby@host240-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:41:01 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:42:44 -!- jpcooper [n=test@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:42:49 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:42:52 jpcooper [n=test@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 18:46:24 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:47:25 tsuru [n=user@66.199.17.194] has joined #lisp 18:47:58 -!- holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:01 -!- l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:49:29 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 18:49:49 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:51:20 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-2318cb4f19223671] has joined #lisp 18:51:31 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E78D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:48 jfrancis1 [n=ubuntu@72.14.227.1] has joined #lisp 18:53:50 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit ["leaving"] 18:54:34 clim frame-manager,Protocol Class 18:54:34 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/28-5.html#_1546 18:54:43 [Wed,28.01.2009|13:47] (@binrapt) http://www.unbreakablecomb.net/KingTut/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/yodawg.jpg 18:54:47 argh 18:54:51 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 18:54:57 silly double use of middle-click 18:55:54 http://jonex.info/dump/yolisp.jpg 18:55:56 ;-) 18:56:08 that's at least on topic (barely) 18:56:33 awesome 18:57:21 hehe 18:57:37 still, my favorite is 'Yo dawg, I heard you like Prolog. No.' 18:58:21 I don't get it :( 18:58:59 Prolog has closed-world assumptions; basically, if it can't prove something to be true, it must be false 18:59:06 Yes I understand prolog. 18:59:12 I mean I don't get the picture. 18:59:15 ah 18:59:17 sorry 18:59:26 Nah me being unclear. 19:00:01 it's an over used meme spoofing Pimp my ride 19:00:08 Hmmm.. 19:00:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pimp_my_ride 19:00:22 I'll not even bother to google it up seeing how it has pimp in it :) 19:00:49 it is a waste of brain cells anyway 19:01:03 oh hosted by xzibit. 19:01:09 He did some good shit though! 19:01:30 well, even if I don't agree with that subjective reasoning, the show is quite silly 19:01:44 & the meme is overused 19:01:48 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@131.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 19:02:15 ok. 19:02:22 Never seen it before, so it can't be that much used :P 19:02:41 Well back to idle for me. 19:02:46 well, it's overused in certain forums, how's that? 19:02:52 Ya all good :) 19:02:58 heh 19:04:47 patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:11 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:35 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:07:10 sane code? http://paste.lisp.org/display/74418#1 19:08:18 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-35-80.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:08:23 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:08:30 EXetoC: it really depends on what "sane" means 19:08:52 EXetoC: it looks like scheme in disguise, i find it highly unreadable and it is inefficient, too 19:09:00 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-35-80.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:11 right 19:09:13 EXetoC: but hey, am i sane? 19:17:36 mult-list and multb could be internally scoped to mult 19:19:00 H4ns: i've done some things manually even though i could've used standard functions instead. i forgot to mention that 19:20:13 BrianRice: i see. my goal at first was to simply get it done, so i'll deal with potential improvements later 19:20:24 *BrianRice* nods, just sayin' 19:20:49 Good evening. 19:20:53 improvements? are you really using somewhere this code? 19:21:01 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.207] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:21:44 stassats`: no but it doesn't matter. i'm only doing this to learn 19:22:15 EXetoC: recursion is overrated :) 19:23:20 EXetoC: in common lisp, you use iteration unless recursion really helps. there is no guarantee that tail calls will be eliminated, so your routine could exhaust the stack for large numbers. 19:23:28 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 19:25:33 -!- jfrancis1 [n=ubuntu@72.14.227.1] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:26:05 jfrancis1 [n=ubuntu@72.14.227.1] has joined #lisp 19:26:14 EXetoC: what about negative numbers? 19:26:50 H4ns: oh 19:27:11 stassats`: i guess it won't work 19:29:19 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:29 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host240-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 19:34:26 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:48 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:37:35 holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 19:38:56 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:39:11 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:40:31 epli 19:40:55 chupish: ? 19:41:04 copypasta mistake 19:41:05 sorry 19:43:40 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:24 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 19:46:33 -!- spec[afk] is now known as mrSPec 19:46:35 -!- mrSPec is now known as mrSpec 19:47:04 maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #lisp 19:52:53 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:53:25 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:55:56 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:58:26 jfm3 [n=user@165.230.132.126] has joined #lisp 19:59:10 Hello #lisp. So I cvs updated my slime directory and now when I run it I get a '*' prompt, as opposed to 'CL-USER>' and I'm all freaked out. Is this normal or do I need to start digging for the problem? 19:59:38 add (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) to .emacs 20:00:38 *stassats`* should make key-binding in emacs for sending that message 20:00:42 <3 20:01:04 Sorry to ask a FAQ. Much appreciated! 20:01:28 i'd rather blame slime developers 20:03:04 I should submit a patch that puts "DO NOT FREAK OUT WHEN YOU SEE THE '*' PROMPT" at the beginning of slime/README. That would have done it for me anyway. 20:03:17 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 20:03:27 is it no longer possible to change the channel topic ? 20:03:43 it would be so cool if slime would just start up with a sane standard setup by default 20:04:01 fe[nl]ix: Not at this time; the channel was set +t due to some idiot troll spamming the channel topic. 20:05:02 LostMonarch [n=roby@host240-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:05:04 H4ns: adding slime-fancy is not that hard, though it probably should be listed in some sort of FAQ. 20:05:42 stassats`: certainly not hard, but what is the reason? i mean, i don't want "fancy", i just want "slime" 20:05:43 I think I dislike _UA_FORCE_UNWIND. 20:05:54 stassats`: but then, it is just me 20:06:36 H4ns: well, as i heard, slime-fancy is what slime used to be before 20:06:47 josemanuel [n=josemanu@131.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:07:33 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-065-010.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:08:34 l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:08:43 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-065-010.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:32 -!- milan [n=milan@79.101.169.224] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:09:53 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:11:55 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 20:13:46 I have no issue with there being a vanilla slime and a fancy slime, it was just surprising and held me up for a while. 20:14:12 milanj [n=milan@93.86.54.185] has joined #lisp 20:14:14 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc26.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 20:14:31 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 20:14:50 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 20:19:29 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 20:21:57 you get 2G and 2EXP from fancy slime, is the difference. 20:23:41 I thought it was 500XP per HP for fancy slime, 250 per HP for vanilla and chocolate. 20:24:50 ayrnieu: And something like 100EXP from a metal slime, but they tend to run away a lot, and can throw fireballs? 20:25:08 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:25:22 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:23 Just no Gelatinous Cubes or Black Puddings. I hate that shit, XP or no. 20:26:58 or Soylent Green 20:27:35 Bah. Those are all from different environments. 20:29:27 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:29:51 *nyef* puts the unwind junk away again. 20:29:58 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 20:31:28 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:35:59 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-62-216.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.14/2008120416]"] 20:39:39 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:46 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 20:42:10 -!- Guest89713 is now known as realtime 20:42:31 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:42:41 -!- mathrick is now known as r00t|4wheels 20:42:46 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:58 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BC37.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:11 -!- r00t|4wheels is now known as mathrick 20:43:49 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:18 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@131.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 20:51:02 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:51:36 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 20:51:43 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 20:55:53 -!- l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:59:12 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host240-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 21:00:34 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-155-84.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:00:38 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:05:34 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:08:48 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbfd2f.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:11:23 eugoss [n=evgueni@204.225.173.9] has joined #lisp 21:11:46 Beeet [n=stathis@ppp7-38.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:13:20 tihonov [n=kef@kefeer2.convex.ru] has joined #lisp 21:17:35 -!- flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has quit ["leaving"] 21:17:55 flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has joined #lisp 21:25:19 -!- spec[afk] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["brb"] 21:26:27 ehu` [n=chatzill@82.170.33.173] has joined #lisp 21:27:16 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:27:23 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:35 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:03 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:35 mrSpec [n=noOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 21:31:33 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:31:45 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-99.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:35:00 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:22 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:36:10 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 21:37:08 tsuru` [n=user@66.199.17.194] has joined #lisp 21:37:14 -!- tsuru` [n=user@66.199.17.194] has left #lisp 21:37:27 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BC37.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:38:21 -!- erlisp [n=genesis@d118-75-6-174.try.wideopenwest.com] has left #lisp 21:39:06 Foo. 21:39:30 ... the Bar 21:44:33 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 21:44:40 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:45:36 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 21:46:04 -!- jfm3 [n=user@165.230.132.126] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:46:41 -!- EXetoC [i=EXetoC@c-c791e155.1422-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 21:47:50 tomsw [n=user@d54C1CF97.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 21:50:30 is anyone using cells-gtk3 on linux? 21:50:50 cos I'm having a bit of a time installing it 21:50:59 djgera [n=djgera@host200.200-117-152.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:51:16 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:51:46 -!- tsuru [n=user@66.199.17.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:52:37 bavb [n=bavb@cpe-24-90-178-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:35 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:58:44 -!- meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:53 meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 22:00:17 aartist [n=REENA@ool-44c51a97.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:26 test 22:00:35 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:00:44 does sbcl have an equivalent of the EXCL package? 22:01:25 What purpose does the EXCL package serve? 22:02:10 the answer to "osi package" would be sb-posix 22:02:53 but I think there's too much mixed purpose in EXCL to point to one specific package in SBCL. 22:03:04 tomsw: something like sb-ext? 22:03:24 -!- tihonov [n=kef@kefeer2.convex.ru] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:04:22 Fare: maybe. I'm trying out cells, and there are a few places in the bundled util-kt library where packages that don't exist in sbcl (mop, excl) are referenced. 22:04:59 there probably should be a compatibility layer to abstract away such implementation dependencies 22:06:09 acl-compat? 22:07:09 Fare: true, but there aint. This is the cvs version... 22:07:29 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:07:42 Doesn't "#+allegro" before a defun mean that sbcl shouldn't try and compile it / read it? 22:07:54 tomsw, welcome to portability hell. 22:07:57 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:07 clhs #+ 22:08:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 22:08:10 tomsw: yes, unless you insist 22:08:38 Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has joined #lisp 22:10:10 -!- chupish [n=sedwards@192.58.150.187] has quit ["leaving"] 22:11:02 Fare: so "#+(or allegro lispworks clisp) #:excl" in defpackage's :use clause should be ignored in sbcl 22:11:57 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 22:12:00 Fare: unless I'm somehow insisting and my my own constant stream of WTF! is drowning it out 22:12:42 tomsw: Well, the method of insisting is to add :allegro to *features*, which should be fairly easy to check. 22:12:44 -!- bavb [n=bavb@cpe-24-90-178-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:14:03 tomsw: ask your system (cl:member :allegro cl:*features*) 22:14:17 hmm there's something I don't get yet... when compiling a whole file, which uses (require 'iolib) for instance, I get an error about iolib package not found, yet if I compile that single line it works fine, and then I can proceed to compile the whole file 22:14:32 require has no compile-time effect 22:14:49 phadthai, (eval-when ...) is your friend. Or #. even 22:15:01 jsnell, hey, how does #. interact with CFASL ? 22:15:17 I suppose effects in #. are *NOT* compiled in -- are they? 22:15:27 right 22:15:35 hmm will check about eval-when, what is #. exactly in this case? 22:15:38 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-51-199.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:15:47 since it's done by the reader, the compiler never has a chance 22:15:56 clhs #. 22:15:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm 22:16:02 thanks 22:16:31 not to be confused with sl#. 22:16:46 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 22:17:12 jsnell, is there a semi-portable way to have some final form read at the end of the file being compiled? 22:17:27 bavb [n=bavb@cpe-24-90-178-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:36 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:40 short of copying the file, adding a form, compiling that 22:17:46 Fare: The obvious comes to mind... yeah, that. 22:18:12 Can you compile-file an arbitrary non-file stream? 22:18:18 ok yes it works fine with #., nice 22:18:33 AND, how do I tell SBCL "compile file FOO1234.lisp, but please remember BAR.lisp in the debug info" 22:18:48 Hrm. Pathname designator. Guess not. 22:19:07 nyef: right. would have been great if a stream would be allowed too. 22:20:08 for the latter, you don't you can just ask for extra information to be stored in the debug info with a non-standard with-compilation-unit keyword 22:20:20 which for example slime uses to do such a mapping 22:20:34 *OR*, how do I do the equivalent of CPP's # 123 "baz.h" 2 3 4 ? 22:21:00 *tomsw* gives up on cells-gtk3 and uses the cells-gtk-2006-06-30 tarball 22:21:09 ehu`: Streams are allowed, but they must be file-streams. 22:22:26 Fare: For the file-name-change thing, you might be able to do sneaky stuff with logical-pathname-translations. 22:24:24 *nyef* is beginning to think that logical-pathnames might actually be pretty neat, even if they -are- implementation-dependent. 22:26:03 well, we're in implementation-dependent land already, so that's OK. 22:26:37 so I'd ask to compile-file some lpn that I'd have specially mapped 22:27:26 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:29 Oh, and while we're at it, could we override the timestamp that SBCL puts in its FASLs by some arbitrary string? 22:27:35 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:02 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:28:05 that would help for determinism in XCVB 22:30:19 -!- eugoss [n=evgueni@204.225.173.9] has quit [] 22:30:26 I'd be more inclined to just kill the useless timestamp completely, not replace it with other content 22:30:29 is there a use case? 22:30:39 kill is fine, too 22:30:41 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:31:10 the use case was to store somewhere the digest of the source+dependencies used to compile the file. 22:31:13 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.70.223] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:31:19 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:31:21 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.70.223] has joined #lisp 22:31:27 not THAT important -- I can track it externally 22:31:28 ah, that was the final form you wanted to add? 22:31:43 no, the final form would have been a finalizer 22:31:51 so as to compile deferred forms 22:32:34 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70cb0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:16 Does it have to happen as if it were in that file, or could you just compile another file afterwards with the final form in it? 22:34:38 as in "make sure some dictionary is finalized and/or some meta-level datastructure is in a consistent state" 22:35:09 note that sbcl fasls can be concatenated. would that help? 22:35:20 *nyef* was going to point that out next. 22:35:24 yes, having the final form in it could possibly be enforced by erroring out after the compile-file if it was found the form was required but not used. 22:35:35 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:48 so that's not a super-important feature. 22:36:41 a better feature actually would be to have a way for SBCL to accept preprocessed files and record the source location from the original source, not the lisp it's processing 22:37:29 That's probably doable... 22:37:50 (that way, I could do arbitrary processing, hygienic macroexpansion, finalization, etc. -- and it would all be tracked in terms of the original) 22:39:56 I don't see how that would work very well 22:40:06 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:40:22 what might work for you is some macroexpand-hook magic 22:40:29 jsnell, because the reader could have been hi-jacked? I suppose that'd be the responsibility of the macro-expander 22:41:03 the reader doesn't really matter. the way source location tracking works in sbcl is: 22:41:10 jsnell, I'm not sure what you mean wrt macroexpand-hook magic 22:41:17 but I'm all ears 22:41:20 or eyes 22:42:06 1. compiler reads in the nth toplevel form, and walks through the whole form recording the source path from the root to each list in the form that was read in 22:43:38 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:45:35 2. when compiling a form, the compiler checks whether the form being compiled can be found in that mapping. if it can, it binds the "current source path" to that path. otherwise it'll leave the current path untouched 22:45:57 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-181-189.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 22:46:44 so where would my macroexpand-hook do its magic? 22:46:48 hum... 22:47:06 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has left #lisp 22:47:10 So you "just" need something that sits at top-level, rewrites that mapping, and then passes the actual code onto the compiler? 22:47:19 *Fare* imagines some evil thing where each line is #.(preprocessed-form ) 22:47:40 3. when saving debug info, it'll map the source path back into a single number. the debugger or slime will then map that single number into a location in the file 22:48:13 I have a local tree which makes it save the source path to have finer-grained M-. 22:48:29 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 22:48:58 I'm not going to do that anytime soon -- but when I do, whom shall I ask / where shall I look ? 22:49:00 so the source mapping works for any form that is eq to something in the toplevel form that the compiler read 22:50:27 if your transforms are so invasive that there's no relation between the originally read-in forms and what the compiler finally sees, nothing will make the source locations work 22:52:12 nyef: Other implementations provide a compile-from-stream which allow that. Kudos to you if you implement that for sbcl. 22:52:15 while if your transformation can be implemented in a way that maintains identity, things will automatically work 22:52:26 nyef: (re: backlog) 22:52:39 hello. is there a builtin-function for common-lisp to replace all occurences of a certain substring of a string by another substring? 22:53:13 rpg_ [n=rpg@72.11.106.198] has joined #lisp 22:53:30 ANSI Common Lisp a good reference for common lisp? 22:53:42 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:53:49 and in such a case you could define your transform as a macroexpand-hook, to have it automatically apply to all forms (assuming most toplevel forms of interest you are going to be macros) 22:54:31 parodyoflanguage: ANSI Common Lisp is a standard 22:54:35 i only found substitute... 22:54:40 but thats not quite what i want 22:54:48 or, rather, _the_ standard 22:54:55 z0d: it's also a book, by Paul Graham 22:54:55 z0d, well, I don't know which standard I should care about 22:55:10 schoppenhauer: Yes, if the substrings are of the same length 22:55:19 I'm running CLisp, is it ANSI compliant? 22:55:21 tcr: what command? 22:55:33 parodyoflanguage: mostly as far as I know 22:55:37 if I'm using #.(preprocessed-form ), all I have to do is to *supply* the identity, I suppose 22:55:38 parodyoflanguage: I don't think that there are concurrent standards 22:56:03 how do I supply that identity? 22:56:17 schoppenhauer: REPLACE 22:56:38 schoppenhauer: or (setf substring) 22:56:49 schoppenhauer: Sorry, I mean (setf subseq), of course. 22:56:58 tcr: this changes a given substring, but it doesnt search fo rit. 22:57:01 so how do I say "this (PROGN...) form comes from this location of the original source file?" 22:57:30 tcr: i want to replace any occurence of a substring by another substring. i can implement that myself, but maybe it is already possible to do this in some standard-way. 22:57:58 Well, I'll go ahead and order then. Thank you. 22:58:17 schoppenhauer: Right. There's no such function in the standard. Such a function can be found in Arnesi, I think. Alternatively, you can use regexps and cl-ppcre 22:58:30 tcr: ok thanks. 22:59:35 schoppenhauer: You've been to the Munich Lisp meeting yesterday? 23:00:28 tcr: yes 23:00:32 tcr: how do you know? 23:01:11 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-6-16.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:01:37 schoppenhauer: #informatik.lmu ; did you follow along to the bar after the presentation? 23:02:29 is this just a matter of (setf (gethash EXPANDEDFORM *some-source-location-hash*) ORIGINAL-SOURCE-LOCATION)) for each of the expanded form returned by my preprocessor? 23:02:45 tcr: who are you in #informatik.lmu? and no, i didnt go there. 23:02:53 tcr: had too much other work to do 23:03:13 schoppenhauer: I'm not in that channel, but /whois showed me :) 23:03:33 tcr: ok, i should do some work today, too, but i am too lazy ^^ - atm I am trying to implement a little trackback-server and client... 23:03:47 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-065-010.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:06 tcr: if i may ask: who are you? (maybe I have seen you... maybe I can remember you ^^) 23:04:19 schoppenhauer: I gave the slime presentation last time 23:04:19 if it's a EQ-hash, what happens when a same atom appears in lots of expansions? 23:04:32 tcr: ah. ok. 23:04:36 atoms are not tracked 23:04:42 tcr: may I query you? 23:04:45 sure 23:05:22 your form looks plausible (it's been a while since I worked with the code though). but remember you'd have to do it for all the subforms too 23:06:22 thanks. I'm adding that to my TODO list. 23:07:05 jsnell: could CFASL possibly make it to an official SBCL release before the end of march? 23:07:12 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:27 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-065-010.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:25 it might (depends on whether I happen to feel like hacking on some free weekend, sorry I didn't get it done over the holidays) 23:08:45 probably not in time for the paper deadline though, if you're submitting one 23:10:01 ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 23:10:14 already submitted and was accepted as a demo. 23:10:38 now for me to have something better than the 0.15 prototype 23:10:53 maybe ITA could buy some sbcl features on the free-market? :) 23:10:54 my goal: a fully-functional v1.0 by the conference 23:11:07 hi, is there a way to make a straight up system call with sbcl? (system "ls") 23:11:12 attila_lendvai, ITA funding of SBCL has suddenly dropped recently. Ouch. 23:11:27 egn: (describe 'run-program) 23:11:37 what date is that march boston lisp meeting you were trying to find an exotic speaker for? 23:11:37 minion: tell egn about trivial-shell 23:11:38 egn: have a look at trivial-shell: Trivial shell is a simple platform independent interface to the underlying Operating System. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-shell 23:11:38 Fare: thanks 23:11:48 minion: thanks 23:11:48 np 23:11:56 jsnell, any time in March, really 23:12:05 jsnell, if you are coming -- WOOT! 23:13:42 not volunteering to speak, just planning on possibly coming over, and trying to figure the optimum dates :-) 23:14:01 grrr 23:14:33 well, the conference is on March 22-25 23:15:26 the BLM would ideally be on March 30, but if I can grab you or someone else who's attending ILC, that'd probably be March 26 or even as an aside from ILC. 23:15:56 if you don't want to speak but can denounce one of your comrades, that's fine with me. 23:16:58 ok, I'll keep that in mind while planning :-) 23:17:42 WE HAVE WAYS OF MAKING YOU TALK! 23:17:42 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-148-73.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [No route to host] 23:18:00 Uh-oh. 23:18:11 *Fare* dons Gestapo coat. 23:18:16 *nyef* hides. 23:18:33 nyef, your turn will come -- be sure of it 23:18:46 Question. Someone else has just informed me that ANSI Common Lisp (the book) is a pretty bad reference. I need second opinions please. 23:19:07 it's an OK book, but not a *reference* book. 23:19:08 Fare: There is, as of today, a non-zero chance that I will be out of town for half a year. 23:19:33 we'll wait for you 23:19:45 Fare, thanks. 23:20:47 *nyef* wonders if a talk on "why I forked SBCL and what I did with it" would be appreciated... 23:21:02 how many times did you fork it? 23:21:09 yes, it would 23:21:18 by me at least, probably 23:21:19 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:21:33 and guess what, I'm the one who decides (so far) 23:21:36 I have a particular bit of damage in mind, but haven't actually worked out the details sufficiently to actually consider implementing. 23:23:59 I suspected that your mind was damaged indeed. Why else be a lisphacker? 23:24:20 Heh. 23:24:25 this goddamn filesystem-order of asdf is always biting me with insane hard-to-debug errors... 23:24:51 attila_lendvai: So... don't use it? 23:24:52 attila_lendvai, you have .asd files that do funky side-effects? 23:25:34 slightly paraphrasing cheech here: "aw man, some dude forked the project I forked!" 23:25:58 Fare: nope. if the order is not fully specified by depends-on stuff then it obeys a filesystem order, therefore on my machine it works, on the server it breaks in interesting ways 23:26:17 attila_lendvai, oh. Interesting. 23:26:26 attila_lendvai: So... specify the order more completely? 23:26:39 Fare: keep in mind to shuffle the files before applying the dependency constraints in xcvb 23:26:58 attila_lendvai, maybe patch asdf to instead sort the files? (though sorting by namestring is not portable, and otherwise, boringly not trivial) 23:27:06 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-51-199.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:27:18 attila_lendvai, I thought of shuffling, but instead decided for textual order. 23:27:23 in the source code. 23:27:32 nyef: sure, expect that now some environmental thing is not installed and some random assert breaks in not-my-code... finding the dependency is not trivial 23:27:49 where's the filesystem order coming from anyway? DIRECTORY in sbcl sorts the output, so that can't be it 23:28:12 actually, shuffling as an option sounds like fun, for detecting problems with undeclared dependencies. 23:28:26 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E78D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:28:56 jsnell: ok, i was sloppy. by filesystem order i simply meant something else than the dependencies... probably the order of the entries in the .asd 23:29:11 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 23:29:32 If it were by order of entries in the .asd, would it not be reliable given the same .asd no matter the host? 23:29:34 but that should be constant with the same .asd file, right 23:30:00 I'm not saying the problem isn't there, just wondering where it comes from :-) 23:30:11 nyef: err, seems like it's late for me already. and i should leave it here working... oh well... 23:31:11 Instead of shuffling I'd suggest to use the reverse order. This is unexpected enough to dig up bugs, but still deterministic (which aids debugging.) 23:33:12 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:33:40 Or you could push each underspecified dependency as early and as late as it can get. 23:33:47 -!- bavb [n=bavb@cpe-24-90-178-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 23:34:57 jsnell the main problem I have with .asd is when you change a dependency and this causes unintended changes in transitive dependencies, and something wholly unrelated breaks. 23:35:02 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:20 except you don't detect that it breaks until another unrelated change modifies the order in which files compile, and then all hell break loose. 23:37:28 *nyef* just uses :serial t. No ordering problems there. 23:37:43 that's also how we work around the problem here. 23:38:08 now for a 1000-file project, that doesn't make for much incremental compilation anymore. 23:38:23 anyone else tried mega1's patch on osx? 23:39:16 s/patch/branch/ 23:39:38 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-51-199.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:39:43 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@235.sub-70-196-128.myvzw.com] has quit ["leaving"] 23:40:27 -!- jpcooper [n=test@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:32 jpcooper [n=test@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 23:42:26 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-44-230.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:43:12 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-065-010.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:13 -!- holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:37 holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 23:45:09 oh great, and now my mouse suddenly became useless: it moves, it changes shape when the context dictates, but clicks have no effect. need to restart X to recover from this... damn, i knew i should have left the upgrade to morning time... 23:46:55 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["later..."] 23:47:15 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:50:21 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-016-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:17 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless93.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:13 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:56 -!- rpg_ [n=rpg@72.11.106.198] has quit [] 23:55:50 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp