00:01:03 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:01:11 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:26 ah :) 00:02:17 -!- krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has quit ["changing servers"] 00:03:00 ginkgo [n=user@chello084113198244.17.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 00:05:12 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:05:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:06 oudeis [n=oudeis@217.194.205.196] has joined #lisp 00:09:41 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:11 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:36 nyef: will it bite if i resized --dynamic-space-size to something less shocking than 200+ mbs? it starts up nice but eventually grows quarter a gig topping firefox in the task manager 00:11:52 my toy app is a queue "observer", basically polling a remote webservice for updates. hopefully with a self-managed memory pool i can semi keep it in constant space, but that's not a priority right now. 00:13:34 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 00:13:42 sweet - now I have 4 lisps on my mac. Loving it. 00:13:50 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:13:52 5 actually 00:14:11 dto: no worries, a few people here where interested in non-clos object systems and the usual reference has been to antique stuff in the CMU AI repo 00:14:18 clojure, lfe, liskell, clisp, sbcl 00:14:44 sadly openmcl is powerpc only 00:15:23 dysinger: Clozure CL is Intel and PPC Macs now 00:15:35 kencausey [n=kencause@74-141-77-141.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:37 the website says it's still beta for 32bit 00:15:45 dysinger: do you know of clozure cl? 00:15:45 the maciest of all mac lisps 00:15:47 and it doesn't work in macports 00:15:49 bummer 00:15:57 Can anyone tell me if I missed something? Are cmeme and ircbrowse.com down for the count? 00:16:10 well I'm running a version on a 64-bit-capable Intel Mac right now 00:16:16 krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has joined #lisp 00:16:16 lambder [n=lambder@adsl-75-3-81-54.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:22 yeah the website says it's good on powerpc and 64bit intel 00:16:22 kencausey: have been for a while. tunes works. 00:16:24 32bit is beta 00:16:29 -!- yango_ [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:16:36 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 00:16:37 pkhuong: OK, I'll change the refs back to ~nef then 00:16:51 clog we love ya. ;) 00:17:16 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:18:48 ccl works on windows; can imagine it being "beta" on the mac. my production sbcl on windows is also beta and comes with an explicit feline threat, doesn't stop it from working. 00:18:56 later 00:18:58 -!- kencausey [n=kencause@74-141-77-141.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #lisp 00:19:18 and i can't imagine clojure, lfe and liskell being less beta than ccl, or more lispy for that matter :-) 00:19:31 they're just as Lispy 00:19:41 unless you're tied to imperative Lisps 00:20:07 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-119-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:20:55 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 00:22:48 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 00:25:32 i didn't know you could grab a random library from cliki and run it on any of the three 00:27:11 I (as a beginner) have a problem with implementing a certain functionality in lisp. 00:27:58 I'm trying to write a function, that itself defines a function upon being called, where parameters and contents of said function should depend on the arguments to the first function. 00:28:10 fusss: I don't think CL is all that Lispy in the first place. it's the Diet Coke of Lisp and mostly a imperfect compromise 00:28:11 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:28:13 fiveop: why do you want to do that at runtime? 00:28:14 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:14 (http://paste.lisp.org/display/74157#4 pseudo code) 00:28:21 brx [n=brx@erxz.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:50 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:29:13 that's probably a good question, but my first try using a macro didn't exactly get me were I wanted to get either 00:29:44 the paste linked to above has to be read as pseudo code, where the 'conditional-include' passages should just reflect my intention, not actuall code 00:31:57 apparently I can't implement that conditional-include functionality with a macro, because the condition on when to include certain code is only available at runtime 00:31:58 what is that supposed to do? in high-level terms 00:31:59 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 00:32:07 kjdf [n=michal@rev-188-38.ramtel.pl] has joined #lisp 00:32:58 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 00:33:03 the operator class is supposed to become part of some sort of predicate logic library 00:34:26 In the end I want to be able to write something like (for-all x (exists y ...)) and get a term object as a result, where for-all and exists are functions defined by this inner defun 00:39:08 fusss: interesting. probably where i should have looked first (antique stuff) before writing CLOS, but then again CLON's history is a bit odd... it began as an implicit way of organizing the gameworld objects and their behaviors in my early Emacs Lisp version of RLX 00:39:21 -!- KucukMubasir1 [n=Halliday@85.97.61.114] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:39:28 fusss: later it was broken out on its own and called Eon, but then I decided to port the whole thing to CL (RLX and all) 00:39:39 s/before writing CLOS/before writing CLON 00:40:03 now i am writing another object system called EOn in elisp, but it's class-based and very simple 00:43:02 fiveop: I look at the code, and I have the feel that it is overcomplicated. Then again, I prefer closures over CLOS 00:44:00 hi madnificent 00:44:10 hello dto 00:44:12 I think I've found a solution 00:46:16 yep, seems over engineered. leave out the (not (null ..)) stuff later. you always have nice predicates like has-prefix-p 00:46:55 someone said I should probably consider &rest instead of forcing to have zero, one or two arguments 00:47:04 and that makes life a whole lot easier 00:48:19 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:21 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:48:54 cygni [n=user@c-98-210-173-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:30 you probably want to write register-operator bottom up, testing stuff in the repl before writing the high-level code. also leave the clos instantiation till later, experiment with plain lists first. 00:52:55 the last form in your code in your assignment, you could've built a closure and returned that instead 00:52:56 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483D24B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:55:05 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:55:21 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-188.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:15 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:59:48 the make-instance form? 01:01:59 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:02:17 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 01:02:48 take it with a grain of salt, it's just a matter of style, but yet, it's usually faster to prototype with straight lists until you know what you want 01:03:23 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:04:00 i would remove the add-hash-item call as well, and something like (values (list name string prefix-types suffix-types) ()) that was I can see what gets called 01:05:31 right now every time you evaluate your function you have to look for its side-effects, inspecting the hash-table and see how it changed, then evaluating the symbol-function of "name" 01:05:31 with naked lists you can see the computation scroll by 01:07:33 debugging with persistant collections like hashtables is a bitch. a few loop iterations will get them populated and pretty soon you're messing with pretty printing and adding timestamps and other tags to see the order they changed in. 01:07:34 pushing elements into a list has the added benefit of showing you the order in which changes have been made. 01:09:30 one could use both concepts at the same time while debugging, I guess 01:10:08 like i said, take it with a grain of salt 01:11:30 http://paste.lisp.org/display/74157#5 this is what I came up with 01:11:40 and it works as far as I can tell 01:11:53 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 01:12:00 now this looks clean :-) 01:12:18 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@ppp12-241.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:13:41 you can also tuck the argument length addition and comparison logic into a function and compact the whole thing to 8 lines or so 01:13:50 Beeet [n=stathis@ppp12-241.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 01:13:50 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit ["leaving"] 01:13:51 -!- _mathrick is now known as workthrick 01:14:24 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB!"] 01:14:54 thanks for the advice above, (values (list arguments) (body)) is in any case a better way then the format constructions I used before ;) 01:15:48 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:50 np 01:16:41 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-60-203.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:19:50 -!- cygni [n=user@c-98-210-173-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:19:54 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:20:02 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6C36F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 01:21:33 -!- etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-43-178.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 01:22:40 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:56 ... I wonder how hard it would be to persuade CLX to do either MITSHM extensions or DGA extensions? 01:29:44 Assuming, that is, that it can't handle them already. 01:32:31 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@mobile-166-217-048-086.mycingular.net] has quit [] 01:33:07 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.223.189] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:35:49 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:13 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:39:59 *fusss* is testing stuff from vecto and skippy in html-canvas, w000t :-D 01:44:36 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 01:46:14 an ode to the Microsoft era http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT7X5C3UXPo 01:49:07 I prefer an ode to the Unix era: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00tzcnyDL68 01:49:09 fusss: what. no complaining about IBM and DEC? 01:49:11 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:49:36 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:50:10 slowly but surely, the beast is being replaced, one small script at a time (cf. http://excanvas.sourceforge.net/) 01:52:15 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-188.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:42 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:56:10 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:56:35 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@mobile-166-217-189-211.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:10 *nyef* wonders if he can cons up a Z80 core and an sn76489 plus alsa bindings in a day... 02:00:20 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:00:29 Actually, I bet I could get sufficient I/O trace data from an emulator that I could just run the sn76489 plus alsa bindings for a while. 02:01:55 Sega stuff? 02:02:01 looks like. 02:02:22 unless there's a sudden interest in the bbc micro, pcjr, or various odd ti computers 02:02:35 did the ti explorer even have sound? 02:04:06 I believe it did, after a fashion. 02:04:24 But, yeah, I was thinking the Master System this time. 02:04:52 Which pcjr, btw? 02:05:57 The IBM one (with the "chiclet" keyboard), or the DrPCJr NES clone/copier/computer thing? 02:06:57 ibm 02:07:42 (Nothing quite like realizing that the disassembled 6502 code you're looking at is actually running a standard PC keyboard interface on a bit-banged port, no 8042 or anything.) 02:08:56 Not to mention the absolute nuisance that was the floppy interface. Standard PC floppy controller, wired into a bloody 6502. 02:08:56 Heh 02:09:15 No DMA, though. 02:09:30 disumu [n=disumu@p57A2614A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:33 I don't type fast enough to need keyboard DMA 02:09:41 Floppy disk DMA. 02:09:48 hehehe 02:10:54 ccovell used to find the coolest random hardware. 02:11:18 all my cool hardware at the moment is analog 02:11:43 though some has digital control circuitry... z80 controlled iirc 02:12:26 There was this one famicom cheat-code device that I forget the name of... 02:13:22 action rocky? 02:13:27 Yeah! 02:13:46 Completely cracked the coding on that. 02:14:19 egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 02:14:47 It was some bit-shuffle thing with a vaguely CRC-like xor-with-constant-if-high-bit-set-and-shift thing. 02:14:47 seems ridiculous to make 'codings' for such devices 02:15:16 a checksum makes sense, for entry reasons... but there's no real reason to not just document it 02:15:39 or just make a proper hardware debugging tool :p 02:16:15 ah well 02:18:57 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:26 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:24:37 Hrm. His page on the fcrocky has a broken link to the actual encoding description. 02:26:24 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:06 yhara [n=yhara@p1174-ipbf05matsue.shimane.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:28:32 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:34 ... Four and a half years ago, according to lisppaste. Wow. 02:31:40 minion: Paste 1769? 02:31:40 Paste number 1769: "Possible encode table for first byte fcrocky codes" by nyef in None. http://paste.lisp.org/display/1769 02:32:45 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:33:38 Oh, god. This code is from before I learned about logbitp... 02:34:01 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host72.190-137-189.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:36:43 And before you learned about format 02:37:27 What trick did I miss with format? 02:38:08 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:18 Well, it's indeed clearer this way. So nevermind my stupidity. I was thinking of rewriting the first one with a loop. 02:38:47 I pressed ENTER too early. 02:38:48 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:40:30 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host137.190-137-197.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:40:43 -!- yhara [n=yhara@p1174-ipbf05matsue.shimane.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:40:45 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 02:40:45 -!- brx [n=brx@erxz.com] has left #lisp 02:42:36 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:44:16 c|mell [n=cmell@p6705fb.tkyoea03.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:44:23 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:44:49 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 02:45:16 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0FD7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:49:21 roygbiv 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[n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:53:07 What's cooking, #lisp? 05:54:40 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp12-241.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:55:55 Eggs. 05:57:26 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:04 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:01:18 Hello tic. I am still trying to catch up with email and administration from last week. I think I am finally getting there. 06:01:40 hey, beach! vacation last week? 06:02:21 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:02:35 tic: That's a joke right? And a bad one on top of that. I had double teaching, fresh meethings, really bad weather, a horrible cold, and an invited guest, all at the same time. 06:02:48 *meetings 06:03:13 Oh, and did I mention a deadline for an article? 06:03:23 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:46 beach, oh right, the cold. Bleh. Hope that's over now. (I guess I took over from you, since I got it in France last Saturday) 06:04:06 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:04:07 beach, what's the article about? proof-reading? 06:04:14 tic: Gsharp. 06:04:33 beach: did the winds die down yet? 06:04:41 beach, fancy! for what conference/journal? 06:04:45 heya fusss. 06:04:57 slyrus: Oh, yes. Last night was calm, and they were pretty fast cleaning up. 06:05:08 that's good to hear. no major damage to the vines? 06:05:12 tic: A French journal: Document numérique. 06:05:16 hey tic; just got off the phone with an old school lisper. someone who owns D-machines :-) 06:05:37 slyrus: I seriously doubt that. A lot of people without electricity as usual, and some damaged roofs. 06:05:38 fusss, yay, archeology! 06:05:42 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-188.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:03 tic: nope, lisp-nepotism. i think i'm getting a C project :-) 06:06:25 fusss, getting in what sense? 06:06:49 time for a mozilla upgrade. biab. 06:06:50 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:06:55 tic: contracting (OT talk though :-P) 06:07:05 fusss, aight. 06:07:30 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:39 fusss: I think I'm gonna have an initial working version of my Slate wannabee extension soon :D 06:08:58 sykopomp: heh, good luck ;-) 06:10:23 fusss: (defbuzzword foo "This is a docstring") (defmessage foo ((foo *my-prototype*)) (print *my-prototype*)) 06:10:23 <3 06:11:00 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:00 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:11:01 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 06:11:16 fusss: did you get my really awesome masterful demo, or should I repeat it? ;) 06:11:59 hold on, the sand-clock icon is still rotating on my MS Brains98 mindtop 06:12:05 hehehe 06:12:25 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:15:04 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:15:10 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:12 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 06:17:44 -!- krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has quit ["changing servers"] 06:18:54 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:54 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:18:56 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 06:23:46 krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has joined #lisp 06:25:56 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-188.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:30 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:28:55 Yet another of those Would-it-really-be-so-bad-if questions: 06:29:47 ... if there were a restriction that all classes have mutually consistent class precedence orders (that is, given (defclass ab (a b) ...), then (defclass ba (b a) ...) is forbidden)? 06:30:07 jcowan, you could make a metaclass that ensured that. 06:30:33 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-188.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:50 or a thin layer on top of defclass. 06:35:16 HG` [n=wells@118.82.169.165] has joined #lisp 06:42:25 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@217.194.205.196] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:45:58 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:46:58 oliver` [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:47:17 -!- oliver` [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:47:28 yhara_ [n=yhara@p1174-ipbf05matsue.shimane.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:48:34 -!- yhara [n=yhara@p1174-ipbf05matsue.shimane.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:49:28 oliver` [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:51:35 -!- oliver` is now known as caoliver 06:54:20 merAch [n=none@c-71-199-20-205.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:37 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:55:48 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-188.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:02 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:02:27 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 07:03:55 tic: Indeed. I'm asking how big a restriction it would be in practice if global consistency were a requirement. 07:04:22 jgroszko [n=john@adsl-99-21-160-136.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:40 -!- jgroszko [n=john@adsl-99-21-160-136.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 07:05:46 <_3b> jcowan: could cause problems with deeper inheritence trees 07:06:25 Can you give me a particular example? 07:06:32 in practice, that is? 07:06:36 <_3b> if you require a-b-c order, could you inherit from a a-c class and b? 07:06:42 tonkachoo [n=aardvark@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:07:17 Wow. There are more than 10.000 functions in the global environment of ZetaLisp. 07:07:24 *_3b* doesn't do much with mixin style (or multiple inheritence in general) so no direct 'in practice' knowledge here :) 07:07:39 z0d: I don't imagine they're all in the same package. 07:08:12 _3b: I'm talking an implementation restriction here: how bad would it be if ab and ba couldn't both be used? 07:09:35 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:09:51 -!- tonkachoo [n=aardvark@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:09:56 <_3b> jcowan: dunno, plenty of languages seem to think multiple inheritence in general isn't needed, so i'm sure it would still be usable 07:10:51 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:10:53 okay, thanks. 07:10:56 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Bailing out"] 07:11:34 <_3b> wouldn't be surprised to see it break existing code either though :) 07:14:39 shayan1 [n=shayan@81.31.164.220] has joined #lisp 07:15:16 hi everybody, does anyone know a compiler from lisp to prolog? 07:16:53 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:07 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-42-204.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:18:18 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-241-102.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 07:18:44 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-241-102.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:18:47 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.8.13] has joined #lisp 07:20:17 good afternoon..a beautiful sunday 07:21:58 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:22:40 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:23:04 oss [n=oss@60.219.192.90] has joined #lisp 07:23:11 -!- oss [n=oss@60.219.192.90] has left #lisp 07:23:55 zaman [n=Mohammad@81.31.164.197] has joined #lisp 07:24:38 -!- zaman [n=Mohammad@81.31.164.197] has left #lisp 07:24:49 no idea? 07:25:33 shayan1: what do you need such a thing for? 07:26:06 I need to write a planner which inputs from pddl 07:26:18 and I have found a pddl to lisp converter 07:26:45 I don't think one exists; the closest thing would be something like Poplog 07:27:16 and no idea about how I can convert from pddl to prolog? 07:27:29 other than writing the parser myself :( 07:27:35 shayan1: you lost me, I'm afraid. What is pddl? And why does your planner need to be in Prolog? 07:28:17 pddl is Planning Domain Definition Language , and prolog is the only language I know in AI 07:28:37 a few planners in prolog can take pddl i think 07:29:02 dmiles_afk, really , do you know any? 07:29:41 http://www.google.com/search?q=prolog+pddl 07:30:01 dmiles_afk, I have done it of course. 07:30:07 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 07:30:40 i think Grippo was one 07:31:40 dmiles_afk , google disagrees 07:31:46 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 07:32:57 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 07:33:20 i am still trying to get the name right 07:34:32 shayan1: what university is the class being taught at? 07:35:01 Sharif University Of Technology 07:36:15 GIPO 07:36:49 http://scom.hud.ac.uk/planform/gipo/ its a java GUI but it calls SWI-Prolog 07:37:17 *slyrus* laughs at how ugly his PDDL code is. some of the first lisp I wrote, way back in 2001. 07:37:20 -!- shayan1 [n=shayan@81.31.164.220] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:37:23 shayan [n=shayan@81.31.164.220] has joined #lisp 07:37:25 wow. 8 years ago. time flies. 07:37:41 yhara [n=yhara@p1174-ipbf05matsue.shimane.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:37:45 -!- yhara_ [n=yhara@p1174-ipbf05matsue.shimane.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:37:57 that was even before I discovered ASDF 07:38:19 shayan, oops i guess it sicstus.. but i remember seeing it run under SWI-prolog instead 07:38:45 shayan: I don't understand why you need prolog for this 07:38:54 dmiles_afk , I'm downloading it any way , thanks 07:39:08 code up the PDDL stuff in lisp. isn't that the assignment? 07:39:10 slyrus , I only know prolog 07:39:13 -!- roconnor [n=roconnor@206-248-135-96.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:39:21 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:53 planner tasks are ussually represented to use propostinal resolution .. basically ussualyl an asumption of prolog 07:40:11 but some of the best impls are in lisp 07:40:37 or at least the most popular impls are lisp 07:40:47 dmiles_afk , well I implemented many things in prolog 07:40:59 and it is only a part of the project 07:41:29 so this is your own research and not exactly just a class assignment? 07:41:55 shayan: so what's the issue? either write the code in prolog, or in lisp. either way, you're going to have to write the pddl stuff 07:44:04 as for pddl ->lisp conversion, pddl basically _is_ lisp, right? 07:44:32 it's just sexp's (with some attached semantics) 07:45:01 i thought it was prolog denoted S-Exprs ;P 07:45:14 denoted by 07:45:36 -!- shayan [n=shayan@81.31.164.220] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:45:38 shayan1 [n=shayan@81.31.164.220] has joined #lisp 07:46:47 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:47:49 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 07:48:52 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:49:11 shayan [n=shayan@81.31.164.220] has joined #lisp 07:49:16 -!- shayan1 [n=shayan@81.31.164.220] has quit [Client Quit] 07:50:32 -!- HG` [n=wells@118.82.169.165] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:50:51 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:41 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:52:41 slyrus , thanks 07:52:48 dmiles_afk , thanks 07:53:05 I'll try GIPO and probably come back ! 07:55:05 -!- shayan [n=shayan@81.31.164.220] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:55:07 shayan [n=shayan@81.31.164.220] has joined #lisp 07:55:41 -!- yhara [n=yhara@p1174-ipbf05matsue.shimane.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:57:23 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 07:58:28 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:58:41 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 08:00:11 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:05:01 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 08:05:08 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.226.125] has joined #lisp 08:06:07 -!- emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Client Quit] 08:07:12 vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:20 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:10:44 -!- shayan [n=shayan@81.31.164.220] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:10:45 shayan1 [n=shayan@81.31.164.220] has joined #lisp 08:16:41 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 08:17:14 HI 08:18:20 hi MrSpec 08:29:38 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:07 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:39:52 aundro_ [n=aundro@195.37-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 08:39:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:52 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:44:34 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 08:44:59 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:48:29 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:48:43 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:52 -!- shayan1 [n=shayan@81.31.164.220] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:55:55 -!- aundro [n=aundro@242.41-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:55 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 09:00:15 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:00:16 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:07:36 beach: around? 09:07:37 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:10:47 H4ns2 [n=Hans@p57BBB38D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:14:35 bah. is anyone with a sense of style and/or taste around? 09:15:06 I'm taking votes. Or I would be if anyone were around. 09:15:36 assume that people are around and tell them how to register their loathing for your horrible design. 09:15:37 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 09:16:18 ayrnieu: no, it's a name, not a design. 09:16:46 you have three choices... 1) chemicl, 2) organicl, 3) chnops -- or 4) something altogether different 09:17:38 I prefer 4 or 1. 09:18:05 hmm... ok. 1 is the current name. I'm debating changing it before publishing it. 09:19:00 oh well, if anyone else wants to weigh in, i'll check back in the morning. 09:19:03 i like 1st 09:19:11 thanks stassats 09:19:14 gnight folks 09:22:19 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 09:28:57 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBAF23.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:57 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 09:33:15 slyrus: if you still read it, 1 sounds good 09:36:00 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:39:01 -!- archangelpetro [n=archange@82.24.172.86] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:39:34 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 09:39:37 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:07 vy [n=user@88.227.111.137] has joined #lisp 09:48:59 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 09:49:03 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:49:27 LostMonarch [n=roby@host240-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:52:39 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 09:54:29 benny [n=benny@i577A0B8E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:00:15 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:03:26 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-155.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:05:56 archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 10:07:32 yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:08:11 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 10:08:54 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:12:00 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:20:37 toki [i=sena@cable-89-216-155-195.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 10:21:37 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:23:31 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-42-240.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 10:33:08 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 10:33:19 dv___ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:33:41 -!- dv___ is now known as dv_ 10:34:15 ganjanaut [n=drew@c-24-19-25-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:14 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-238-145.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 10:35:44 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:44 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:39:38 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 10:48:39 -!- yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:50:27 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 10:50:29 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp457.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:55:47 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3ee1.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 10:59:14 hmm anyone know of a way to set sbcl gc threashold so that it collects more often/aggressively on a low-RAM system (and less aggressively on high-RAM system)? I've seen nothing for this in the manual or man page 11:06:47 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:07:11 Ragnaroek [i=54a65133@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-51a78e78dca9d38d] has joined #lisp 11:10:02 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:12:35 phadthai: Maybe looking at gc.lisp helps 11:30:04 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-42-240.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:30:35 -!- dialtone_ is now known as dialtone 11:39:36 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:40:03 -!- vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:40:56 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:41:02 djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:43:21 z0d: thanks, will do 11:45:12 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:47:37 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:01:53 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6D5AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:18 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:23:27 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:26:00 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.215] has joined #lisp 12:29:23 killerstorm [n=alex_miz@sputnik.donapex.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:17 -!- ganjanaut [n=drew@c-24-19-25-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:32:06 pjb [n=t@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 12:32:18 o hai. does anybody have information about the overhead of mutexes in SBCL (on linux) -- is it OK to create thousands of them? is it ok to aquire them frequently? 12:33:00 killerstorm: I'd guess that thousands of them is ok. 12:38:24 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 12:38:30 having to manage thousands locks (serving different purposes) sounds like a chore to maintain 12:39:05 They may be embedded in autonomous objects. 12:39:47 yep, i'm going to achieve something like Java's "synchonized", mutex being allocate for each object 12:39:49 inactive locks shouldn't be too heavy, unless they are kernel objects (which iirc under linux they are not) 12:43:00 yep, that's what i'm thinking of -- are they entirely user-level or not. all odds they are, but i just want to be sure. 12:44:11 sbcl under linux uses so-called "futexes", unless it changed while I wasn't looking. those are user-space objects 12:44:40 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:45:03 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 12:45:03 ok, thanks 12:47:55 -!- hypno [n=hypno@195.43.248.100] has quit ["leaving"] 12:56:43 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 13:04:33 futexes are not 100% userspace I think. There is some kernel space work included, but it's minimal 13:04:51 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 13:04:53 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 13:07:56 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:08:41 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-114-207.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 13:08:57 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:00 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:11:44 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:03 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:14:00 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:14:04 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.215] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:14:08 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:17:02 manic12__ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:15 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:18:10 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:19:20 cmo-0 [n=cmo-0@auh-b126564.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #lisp 13:23:35 I'm trying to get the archives of comp.lang.lisp since 1995, but i couldn't find a one. any links 13:26:01 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:27:43 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:00 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:29:14 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:29:22 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-105.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:32:21 -!- manic12__ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:32:25 manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:47 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:35:03 antifuchs: Were you involved in clornucopia? 13:35:46 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:53 -!- toki [i=sena@cable-89-216-155-195.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit ["???????"] 13:36:48 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-0689e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:37:47 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:38:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-105.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:41:26 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 13:44:31 drewc: Here? 13:47:56 I think nobody has written an automatic converter from Lispworks' defsystem into asdf? 13:48:24 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-105.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:49:49 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-105.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:50:33 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:45 impomatic [n=John@nat65.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:58:59 -!- killerstorm [n=alex_miz@sputnik.donapex.net] has left #lisp 14:03:18 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 14:07:17 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-58-237.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:21 G'morning all. 14:07:30 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@mobile-166-217-189-211.mycingular.net] has quit [] 14:08:29 heya, nyef. 14:09:16 hello nyef 14:10:18 So I was thinking about emulation this morning over breakfast, and I realized that, given a minimal I/O trace of sn76489 port writes and video frame events, I could write something to output -raw- samples to a file... or through /usr/bin/play. 14:11:03 cmo-0: cmu-ai-rep 14:12:26 pjb: thanks. 14:13:15 No CPU core, no ALSA bindings, but a small amount of control logic, the sound generator itself, and a hack for the output. 14:14:55 And an amusing bit is that, since I control the I/O trace file format, I can use LOAD to make it happen. 14:15:09 cmu-ai-repository/pubs/news/comp.lang.lisp has it from 90_01 to 97_04_12. 14:16:03 Seems http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/pubs/news/ has been hacked. 14:16:51 Try: ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/lisp-mirrors/www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/project/ai-repository/ai/pubs/news/comp.lang.lisp/ 14:19:44 realtime [i=sabbath@189.74.219.239] has joined #lisp 14:20:02 blx [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:20:08 I have a type t and a symbol s and I want to know whether the name of type t is the same as the name of the symbol. I there a way to do that? 14:20:15 -!- realtime is now known as Guest30296 14:20:39 any way to have more traditional style oo with functions inside object scope in CLOS? 14:20:50 fiveop: What do you understand as "a type t"? 14:21:04 -!- Guest30296 is now known as realtime 14:21:08 I have an object whatever and get t by calling (type-of whatever) 14:21:31 Arnar [n=arnarb@blackhole.hvergi.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:34 oh wait, that's not the whole problem 14:21:35 g'day all 14:21:48 fiveop: You can test whether the object is of a certain type (named by a symbol s) by (typep object 's) 14:21:49 (type-of 5) => (integer 0 1152921504606846975) 14:22:24 (Is that unsigned-fixnum?) 14:22:24 blx: it's trivial to implement inferior OO styles in CL. 14:22:52 fiveop: you'd better have a type TYPE, because T is a constant. 14:22:54 pjb: it just makes sense in this case because the function will only be used inside methods for this object 14:23:29 I'm looking for a simple alg.. generating all possible boolean N-vectors with exactly M elts set to T 14:23:29 blx: Have you considered just doing your defmethod forms inside a LABELS ? 14:23:32 any ideas? 14:23:46 pjb: that was just an unfortunate naming for the example 14:24:00 Arnar: Yes. It's mentioned in hakmem as a permutation problem on integers. 14:24:14 nyef: cool idea. thanks 14:24:25 nyef: thanks.. 14:24:57 Ah. 14:25:06 minion: Tell Arnar about paste 22385? 14:25:07 Arnar: please look at Paste number 22385: "Computing the set of k-bit integers with n bits set." by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/22385 14:25:51 I knew I had messed with this problem before... At least twice. 14:25:59 nyef: cool, thank you 14:29:14 thank you tcr, pjb after knowing that it should work how I thought, I noticed subtypep was called with arguments reversed ... 14:30:16 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:30:27 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:08 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:52 sorry for the noob questions, I'm rather unfamiliar with std. functions - but the quickest way to test a certain bit in an integer? 14:34:02 -!- blx [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has left #lisp 14:35:55 comments welcome: http://blog.jrock.us/articles/Problems%20with%20Lisp.pod (not a rant about problems with CL, but rather a rant about rants about "problems" with CL :) 14:38:04 macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:38:35 Arnar: logbitp 14:39:09 -!- cmo-0 [n=cmo-0@auh-b126564.alshamil.net.ae] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:39:24 johnnydoe [i=johnny@broadband-77-37-130-134.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 14:39:46 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:58 pkhuong: ah.. thanks 14:41:51 cmo-0 [n=cmo-0@auh-b126564.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #lisp 14:42:37 jrockway: Umm... The top 3/5 of the words "Content Considered" appear to be above the top of the page (upper scroll limit) in my browser (a firefox of some stripe). 14:43:21 yeah, i will redesign the site soon :) 14:43:25 <-- not a web designer 14:44:13 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:44:19 <-- not a good web designer, but still does his own css. 14:44:41 -!- vy [n=user@88.227.111.137] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:22 this is actually a Typo theme i stole for my own blog engine 14:45:31 that was a poor decision in retrospect 14:45:40 but... 't will all be fixed soon 14:52:12 user___ [n=user@p5492667A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:24 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:55:02 does lisp have anything like haskells list comprehensions? 14:55:19 i.e. I supply a function that generates the elements 14:56:28 There's the generic sequence stuff, if you really want to go that route, but it's not exactly portable. 14:56:48 nyef: ok.. I want to stay portable 15:02:12 matley [n=matley@94.36.129.207] has joined #lisp 15:03:09 loop, maybe 15:03:35 jrockway: Instead of writing a generic function because NTH doesn't work on arrays or NTH and AREF take their arguments in a different order, you could use ELT. :-) 15:04:19 hmm, true! 15:04:23 time for a slight update :) 15:04:23 Beeet [n=stathis@ppp12-241.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:05:31 arnar: i'm trying to learn how to use loop -- give an example of a haskell list comprehension and i'll embarass myself by trying to translate it to loop 15:06:23 jrockway: Do you think it might be a good idea to mention FIRST, SECOND, etc.? 15:07:01 dunno 15:07:17 it is not really an "introduction to lists" but rather "learn how to use setf" :) 15:07:20 True. 15:07:27 Seems decent to me, FWIW. 15:07:53 thanks 15:08:00 and thanks for mentioning elt, i am an idiot ;) 15:08:15 Heh, no worries. 15:08:54 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:09:14 Why do you set a height for your header in the CSS? 15:09:34 Aankhen``: We just had this discussion. 15:09:45 Whups, my bad. 15:10:43 laziness 15:10:55 i have mentally disowned my blog software until i have a chance to rewrite it 15:11:02 so fixing little bugs seems like a waste of time 15:11:17 the good news is that i have the new design clear in my head, and am going to write it down later today 15:11:25 (perl, not lisp, though... so a little off topic) 15:11:29 ehu [n=chatzill@ip5657b052.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 15:12:22 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:14:58 -!- impomatic [n=John@nat65.mia.three.co.uk] has quit ["http://impomatic.blogspot.com"] 15:15:00 -!- johnnydoe [i=johnny@broadband-77-37-130-134.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 15:15:59 elurin [n=user@85.99.69.218] has joined #lisp 15:19:51 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:23:20 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 15:24:38 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:25:34 newbie [i=kvirc@151.82.0.79] has joined #lisp 15:25:46 ciao 15:26:05 !list 15:30:08 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@ppp12-241.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:21 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:36:23 tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:03 xach needs to do a web app do do this from movie scripts (disclaimer: possibly an AI-complete problem): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nEMGem2Gfo 15:39:56 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:44 ... AI-complete. Now that I haven't heard, might be useful term :) 15:42:24 AI-complete -> passes turing test? 15:42:46 madnificent: humans don't pass turing test 15:42:57 point taken 15:44:09 and we don't use turing test as a guideline anymore, at least I haven't heard of anyone working with turing test as a target 15:44:36 p_l: it was supposed to be humorous -_- 15:44:58 madnificent: sorry ^^; 15:45:20 madnificent, AI-complete just means the problem is at least as hard as creating a human equivalent AI, yeah 15:45:43 (I'm pretty sure humans pass the turing test, but I'm not sure I want to get into that conversation... :p) 15:46:02 p_l: well, it wasn't a good joke if it wasn't understood. I guess, so it's probably my fault :) 15:46:29 xan_: Let's say that trolls don't 15:47:04 xan_: it would be a whole lot harder than the automotivator... And I wouldn't really know how (and what) you'd let the user specify the content of the movie 15:47:25 p_l, heh, right 15:47:58 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:27 Xlas [n=28@c-923e70d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:48:47 xan_: a good chat bot (even if it only uses markov chains as its "AI") can fool someone nowadays 15:49:15 madnificent, sure, that's why I said if you manage to have a problem that gives you something like that from the movie script you probably got yourself a human equivalent AI, or pretty close 15:49:20 in any case: AI complete could mean that it will never be solved. As a common definition of AI is: 'whatever humans can do, that we can not solve by a computer (yet)'... 15:49:33 p_l, Eliza fooled people decades ago, but that does not mean the Turing test is useless IMHO 15:50:03 madnificent, if you manage to have a program I meant... 15:50:58 xan_: Well, I'm not sure if anyone is really aiming for Turing tests. It was useful, though, to weed off some unnecessary discussions 15:51:12 isn't it great that whenever a buzzword is created, no real meaning is given to it. So that in the end, we can have endless discussions about something of which we don't even know the definitive definition :) 15:51:22 xan_: no, sadly I'm not that good 15:51:57 and actually, turing test is more for something that lately got called AGI, not AI 15:52:09 p_l, Some people are, and right, I was about to mention AGI 15:52:55 even in that case I'm not sure if I'd go for turing test as a measure 15:53:10 I stand by "AGI might be too alien to pass turing test" 15:53:42 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0E1EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:51 -!- macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:54:36 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:55:18 p_l, well... I'd say that if it can't have a coherent conversation with a human being then there ain't anything 'G' about it :) 15:55:23 but hey, just my opinion :) 15:56:13 xan_: "Coherent" poses a problem, since it might use a completely different logic system to better understand stuff that humans are not good at 15:56:21 roconnor [n=roconnor@206-248-135-96.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:04 ginkgo [n=user@chello084113198244.17.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:57:48 p_l, it seems a bit unlikely that we would create such a thing, and anyway I think that communication should be possible among intelligent beings. But honest minds can disagree on this for sure. 15:59:12 xan_: I remember a question in a sci-fi novel once, where they were trying to explain what a cthulhoid entity is. The closest one was "intelligence for which quantum mechanics are completely logical" 16:01:10 And I think we would like to have something capable of understanding physics better just for scientific help :) 16:01:47 well, you are presupposing that someone for which quantum mechanics "makes sense" would be so alien that no communication with it would be possible. 16:02:09 -!- Xlas [n=28@c-923e70d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 16:02:18 Xlas [n=28@c-923e70d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:02:31 another nooby one: can I pass a list as a reference to a function, so that the fun can modify it? 16:02:59 googling "reference" is not exactly helpful :/ 16:03:07 -!- newbie [i=kvirc@151.82.0.79] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:03:08 xan_: Another thing is that turing test assumes certain communication methods, not to mention being older than first law of AI, so it doesn't include some knowlege we have now 16:03:20 -!- Xlas [n=28@c-923e70d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 16:03:25 rlb3 [n=user@208.74.120.18] has joined #lisp 16:03:30 Xlas [n=28@c-923e70d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:04:12 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:05:06 Beeet [n=stathis@62.1.235.241] has joined #lisp 16:06:17 p_l, ok, sure, although I don't think that is the important part of it. I think the important insight he had back then, which is impressive, was realizing that if nobody can't tell the difference between you and a human in a conversation then you are a 'human', no matter that you are a black box in a corner dissipating heat. 16:07:45 Arnar, you mean modify the contents? 16:09:11 xan_: The biggest problems is that an intelligent human needs sometimes to actively fake it. Insight was useful, sure, but it's no longer a real test IMHO 16:09:48 p_l, could be. What you propose as a test? 16:09:55 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0DC89.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:10 -!- ypsa [n=ypsa@217-115-252-250.cust.avonet.cz] has quit ["leaving"] 16:11:13 Arnar, anyway, if you mean the contents that's how it works already. If you mean changing the 'reference to the list' itself, you need special variables AFAIK. 16:11:38 xan_: I'm not going to propose a test. I find it too hard. And people bent on showing that humans are superior to any other beings will redefine intelligence anyway. 16:14:17 I think the way they do it now is they have a group of people doing the interviews, and you need a majority of judges failing to identify the machine to concede it's a true AI. I guess they try to minimize the 'that judge is a fool' factor. 16:15:15 xan_: The problem is that some things which are hard for humans are _very_ easy for a machine 16:15:26 so you have to make the machine lie to the judges 16:16:01 obviously, that's part of the test, the machines are trying to fool humans into making them think they are humans, that's the point 16:16:48 xan_: I mean the contents.. but my test didn't seem to work that way 16:17:17 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 16:17:31 xan_: perhaps what I was doing wrong was to setf a fun. parameter 16:17:45 p_l, there's an amazing chapter in one of Hofstadter books where he's interviewing a machine to figure out if it's really an AI or a human faking it. The kinds of questions he makes are great. 16:17:46 (defun test (thelist) (setf thelist (cons 0 thelist))) 16:17:53 p_l, the book is Methamagical Themas 16:18:09 Arnar, that's not changing the contents 16:18:38 ah.. just the "thelist" binding 16:19:05 yeah. Changing the contents would be something like (defun test (thelist) (setf (second thelist) 'FOO)) or something 16:19:13 right.. 16:19:20 Why do you have 'the' in there? 16:19:22 but can I somehow grow the list though? 16:19:39 Zhivago: what, for the variable name? 16:19:54 A list is not an object -- it is a pattern of cons blocks, so 'growing the list' doesn't really make sense. 16:19:57 Yes. 16:20:30 You can alter that pattern, or you can produce a pattern which contains the pattern you were given, as with (cons 'x list) 16:20:33 Zhivago: about the "the".. I dunno, can't see what it matters what I name my vars 16:20:42 Well, it mainly looks stupid. 16:20:50 Zhivago: and? 16:20:55 You'd want to at least write the-list, but I don't see what's wrong with list. 16:21:17 Lone_Wanderer [n=chatzill@ip98-166-59-233.hr.hr.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:22 And, this means that thinking about 'growing the list' probably contains an error in the thinking that produced it. 16:21:28 Zhivago: it can be named "x" or "foo" for all I care, it is not the point 16:22:05 Zhivago: I know how lists are represented, but we (or at least I) tend to think about ADTs abstractly.. 16:22:07 Well, you're welcome to produce hideously ugly code. Just try not to inflict it on others. 16:22:08 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.83.22] has joined #lisp 16:22:20 Anar: What are the operations upon a list ADT? 16:22:30 so we talk about peano numbers as they were numbers, and cons structures as they were lists 16:23:15 Zhivago: I can easily see "growing" a list as adding one elt to the end 16:23:25 Arnar: Which list does that grow? 16:23:45 Zhivago: the abstract list that the series of cons-s represent 16:23:54 How many lists is that? 16:23:55 someone is holding a reference to the head somewhere 16:24:09 now youre just yanking my chain :) 16:24:16 No, I am asking a simple question. 16:24:27 So, I've been fooling around with Lisp (via Slime) for quite some time now. 16:24:36 Let's say that I have (list 'a 'b 'c) and you use (setf (last list) (list 'd)) 16:24:40 Zhivago: please clarify it then? how many lists is what? 16:24:45 How many lists does that extend? 16:24:47 And I'd like to write a self-contained program, that I can run from the shell... 16:24:56 How does one go about doing this? 16:24:57 Sorry, (setf (rest (last list)) (list 'd)) 16:25:06 1? 2? 3? 4? 16:25:25 any of them.. depending on which you take as the head 16:25:33 All of them. 16:25:54 Do I need to run it via a Lisp interpreter, like with Python programs, or can it be compiled into a binary or something similar? Is it possible to still use Slime to connect to the running program if I want to modify it while it runs? 16:26:01 Zhivago: yes.. and your point is what 16:26:45 Arnar: You're using the wrong ADT. Consider using a structure to represent your kind of list -- it isn't a chain based on the ADT operations of head and tail. 16:27:20 Zhivago: that's what I did already :) 16:27:23 I was just curious 16:28:21 I'll rephrase the q: I have a variable x holding the head of a list. Can I pass a reference to this variable to a function, which can then modify the list? 16:29:37 CL does not pass by reference. 16:30:07 Zhivago: neither does C, but you have references (pointers) to work around that 16:30:12 *Lone_Wanderer* taps his keyboard. "Is this thing on?" 16:30:14 CL does not have pointers. 16:30:23 Zhivago: but does it have references? 16:30:25 CL has a concept of 'places'. 16:30:35 CL has object references which are passed by value. 16:31:17 Lone_Wanderer: You can dump an exe from SBCL, run it in a screen session, and if you are running swank in that core, then you can connect to the REPL remotely. 16:31:48 Lone_Wanderer, also googling for "lisp executables" will probably answer most of your questions 16:31:52 kk cool 16:32:15 isn't running a program in screen kind of a ghetto way to get an instance permanently in memory? 16:32:40 Zhivago: thanks, but why didn't you mention this from the start instead of besserwissering assuming I didn't know how lists are represented? 16:32:49 I was just looking for concept names to give google.. 16:33:07 Probably because you were making a different error then. 16:33:41 my pasted code was meant to show my intention.. I quickly realized the error 16:33:42 my point is.. 16:33:44 telebyte [n=unknown@84-72-89-22.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:34:06 Arnar: Do you understand how (setf (rest x) y) works? 16:34:06 -!- telebyte [n=unknown@84-72-89-22.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 16:34:19 Lone_Wanderer: It's convenient to be able to log into the server and reattach the session to get to the REPL. 16:34:22 Zhivago: not really 16:35:00 Zhivago: but I can see why (defun f (x) (setf x 10)) didn't 16:35:03 ahaas: Agreed, but if the server has to reboot for whatever reason, it won't restart the program. But in all fairness I didn't ask how to run a service. 16:35:07 Arnar: (rest x) is a place. (setf (rest x) y) expands by horrible macrology into some update code that will try to change the result of (rest x) to y for the future. 16:35:19 ah.. 16:35:36 Arnar: Places are what roughly correspond to pointers in CL, but they are lexical rather than first class constructs. 16:35:43 Lone_Wanderer: What does that have to do with screen? 16:35:47 ok 16:35:55 Lone_Wanderer: then start screen as a daemon ;) 16:36:17 Lone_Wanderer: and on a side-note: unix is a getto, that's how it has been built 16:36:21 s/on/as/ 16:36:53 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:57 I guess my ideas of "proper" need to go out the window, then. 16:37:46 Lone_Wanderer: there are other options too, anything that will start the core and keep running will do. There is an app (forgot the name) that does just that (not specific for lisp) 16:38:33 madnificent: detachtty? 16:38:43 Lone_Wanderer: ^ 16:39:07 sweet, thanks 16:41:08 johnnydoe [i=johnny@broadband-77-37-130-103.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 16:42:09 vy [n=user@88.227.111.137] has joined #lisp 16:42:33 Lone_Wanderer: what are you going to build? 16:43:08 A fairly simple financial calculator-type thing. 16:43:34 I haven't found *any* service that does what I want, specifically, just tells me RIGHT NOW how much money I have to blow. 16:43:51 ok 16:44:08 I just want to tell it what my bills and expenses are, how much I get paid a month and when, and have it automatically calculate how much I can spend without cutting into money that's already earmarked. 16:45:02 Simple problem (until I get into things like making it respond to text messages and, eventually, voice calls...) 16:45:05 Lone_Wanderer: there was a related post at planet.lisp.org 16:45:33 related to finances, running programs from the shell, voice recognition, sms...? 16:45:43 finances 16:45:49 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:45:52 <_death> I wonder why bordeaux-threads's `with-timeout' bug is still not fixed in main repo.. it's pretty useless as it stands 16:46:28 first story actually. You could contact that person and see if you could get some of his sweet code (if it isn't available online) 16:46:29 thanks madnificent 16:46:34 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0B8E.versanet.de] has quit [No route to host] 16:46:41 and morning folks 16:47:00 good morning slyrus. And yw 16:49:01 cool, I'll take a look at it 16:50:04 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:15 slyrus: do you use OSX ? 16:53:14 benny [n=benny@i577A0B8E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:25 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:55:42 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:57:26 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@ip5657b052.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:58:39 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 17:01:54 Given linkage-table and whatnot foreign dataref junk, why does SBCL still have wrapped_environ()? 17:03:55 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:06 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:07 rurban [n=chatzill@93-82-86-147.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:14:01 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 17:15:08 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 17:15:39 p_l, this just appeared in reddit btw http://notnews.today.com/2008/10/13/turing-test-won-with-artificial-stupidity/ :) 17:16:08 how an I return from a loop, from inside an inner loop? 17:16:14 The turing test is more an examination of human gullibility than computer intelligence. 17:16:30 Arnar: Loop NAMED whatever, then (return-from whatever). 17:16:47 nyef: tried that.. got "unknown loop keyword" error.. 17:16:47 xan_: .... I KNEW IT 17:16:57 p_l, heh 17:17:00 xan_: (in the sense "i knew it will happen") 17:17:24 nyef: ah.. sorry 17:17:30 didn't use the "NAMED" keyword 17:18:00 nyef: thanks 17:18:01 Yeah, clhs 6.1.7.1 discusses NAMED. 17:18:06 p_l, this one is fake, but yeah... :) 17:19:19 xan_: I can see it happen. In fact, we had such case once, were we couldn't decide if a certain nick on IRC was a bot, stupid, troll or stupid which didn't know english enough 17:20:04 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 17:20:04 p_l, I'm sure that happens a lot, yes 17:25:54 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:56 b4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:26:15 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:28:24 b^4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:28:36 vimacs` [n=user@c-24-60-189-202.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:06 fe[nl]ix: yes 17:34:21 slyrus: do you happen to know where I could find xcode for 10.4 ? 17:34:54 hmm... no, I haven't used 10.4 in a while. did you check the ADC download section? I'd be shocked if it wasn't available 17:37:56 I was only able to find the latest version, 3.1.2 which requires at least 10.5 17:38:13 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:39:18 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:39:28 tomsw [n=user@d54C1C1A4.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:39:33 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:58 fe[nl]ix: you have to log into the ADC site at connect.apple.com, go to downloads / Developer Tools 17:44:26 Xcode 2.5 Developer Tools is there 17:44:32 -!- b4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:36 and older... 17:45:17 I probably have an old developer tools with MPW from 1993 or so lying around if you have any _really_ old HW you need to target :) 17:46:19 oh, you're right. I gave up too early 17:46:28 I was trying to find it at http://developer.apple.com/technology/xcode.html 17:48:54 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:53:55 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@93-82-86-147.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.14/2008120416]"] 17:56:24 josemanuel [n=josemanu@189.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:56:56 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:10 -!- johnnydoe [i=johnny@broadband-77-37-130-103.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:01:01 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:37 -!- matley [n=matley@94.36.129.207] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:04:38 -!- vy [n=user@88.227.111.137] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:06:03 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp457.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:10:35 vy [n=user@88.227.111.137] has joined #lisp 18:12:28 -!- meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:12:38 meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 18:15:43 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:54 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:24:04 -!- spec[afk] is now known as mrSpec 18:30:32 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:32:39 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.163.206] has joined #lisp 18:33:41 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:37:51 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:36 -!- Beeet is now known as Beket 18:42:56 -!- vy [n=user@88.227.111.137] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:44:19 stassats` [n=stassats@92-100-132-112.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 18:44:56 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:02 Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:06 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Client Quit] 18:48:46 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:31 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:58:48 persi [n=user@ec2-174-129-176-219.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:50 Hi guys. 19:02:09 Hello. 19:02:59 -!- b^4 is now known as b4 19:03:05 -!- b4 is now known as b4|hraban 19:03:36 I've a list building question. Lets say a function needs to construct a list i've been doing alot of (nconc (list 'a 'b) (when foo (list 'c 'd)) (when bar (list 'e 'f)). Better way? One that doesnt require push and nreverse. 19:04:05 Why? 19:04:13 Why a better way? 19:04:19 Why list construction? 19:04:52 what are you trying to do? 19:05:16 depending on what you want to do, you might want to use defstruct instead of manually building lists like that... 19:05:23 Build a list where parts of the list may or may not be included and to preserve the order of building in the code. 19:05:28 Oh, and your better way is `(a b ,@(when foo '(c d)) ,@(when bar '(e f))). 19:05:41 Possibly with a copy-list around it. 19:05:45 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:06:01 nyef: na, i want a new list. backquote doesent guarantee that. 19:06:06 ahh 19:06:08 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:17 ok. that does look cleaner. 19:06:42 thanks 19:06:49 I do still have to wonder what the hell you're really trying to do, though. 19:07:07 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.8.13] has quit ["bbye going off to sleep"] 19:07:22 Build up rpc calls. 19:08:12 ... Wierd RPC mechanism. 19:08:28 yep 19:08:59 hi. i'm using cffi to interface to a library that allocates objects that must be freed calling a given c-function. is there a way to ensure said function is called when a CLOS object holding the c pointer is GCed? or must i handle memory deallocation manually? 19:09:58 jao: You must handle memory deallocation manually, as "finalizers" are a safety measure at best. 19:10:01 jao: one way is to use finalizers 19:10:03 minion: tell jao about trivial-garbage 19:10:04 jao: please look at trivial-garbage: trivial-garbage is a simple library that provides a portable API to finalizers, weak hash-tables and weak pointers. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-garbage 19:10:10 jao: That said, have a look at trivial-... Yeah, that thing. 19:10:31 thanks! 19:10:57 binghe [n=binghe@123.247.194.91] has joined #lisp 19:11:08 which isn't necessarily to say that you shouldn't manage deallocation manually 19:11:51 well, managing deallocation is painful 19:11:58 It is? 19:12:37 Can't be any worse than deallocating a file descriptor or child process identifier... 19:12:42 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:04 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:14:43 -!- binghe [n=binghe@123.247.194.91] has quit [Client Quit] 19:18:11 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:39 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 19:22:20 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [] 19:27:42 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:28:15 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:34:30 singhv [n=vsingh@CPE0014bf4af6c2-CM000a739caee2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:18 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.226.125] has quit [" well, I'd say that eql is useful where you want to compare for identity. and that eq is its retarded litt] 19:43:51 beach, so what book would one write, then? 19:45:58 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:43 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-151-10.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:00:17 Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has joined #lisp 20:01:09 chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.162.15.199] has joined #lisp 20:01:20 WTF? Winlogon.exe just started taking up all my CPU time. 20:02:04 hmm 20:02:59 Were I not trying to print something right now, I'd kill the wireless on that box. 20:10:45 -!- Beket [n=stathis@62.1.235.241] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:10:50 Can I obligatorily say "if you'd just use linux, you wouldn't have these problems..."? 20:11:23 No, you may not. 20:12:23 For two reasons. First is that there are other windows users in the house. And second is that I also have a linux box, and getting it mostly-working was a royal pain. 20:13:28 Aw man, I thought maybe if I said that, I would get a pair of suspenders and maybe my beard I don't have would start appearing. 20:14:02 nyef, have you tried Hijack This ? 20:14:28 mrSpec: Not to my knowledge. 20:15:51 why ? there are websites to analyze HJ's logs 20:16:10 felix^^ [n=fgeller@dslb-092-078-106-001.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:55 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-223.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 20:22:31 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:24:19 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E1EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:12 Is it possible to make (setf foo 5) not print 5 ? 20:25:49 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:53 mrSpec: it doesn't 20:25:56 mrSpec: it doesn't print 5 20:25:57 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:26:01 mrSpec: it *returns* 5 20:26:13 aren't we smart! 20:26:16 but it returns on the screen... 20:26:26 mrSpec: (progn (setf foo 5) nil) 20:26:42 and now the next question is: 20:26:43 nah. (progn (setf foo 5) (values)) 20:26:47 then It will return nil ? 20:26:57 hehe, yes sir 20:27:01 if it returned nil, it would "print" nil 20:27:08 :) 20:27:15 -!- tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:27:18 hefner: which is *not* 5! :P 20:27:25 co remove nil will solve this ? 20:27:31 so* 20:28:33 "ok, I got nothin'" 20:29:12 testing... in progress 20:29:17 mrSpec: why is that important, anyway? 20:29:58 i make a lot of setf in my program... and all is on the screen :\ 20:30:37 and I'd like to see only the result 20:30:45 that is the result 20:30:50 you program by typing at the prompt, one expression at the time? 20:30:58 *a time 20:31:03 that's how lisp encourages you to write in a functional style =p 20:31:12 sorr dont understand 20:31:15 sorry* 20:31:27 I use functions... 20:31:41 Hmm I'd show my code but it is in polish :S 20:31:45 *hefner* is not serious 20:32:13 *madnificent* is, but it should probably be ignored (that leaves cmm) 20:33:09 I'm solving n-hetmans problem so I have to insert values into the list a lot of times 20:33:14 -!- l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:33:27 but i am waiting till the chessboard is full for the *result* 20:33:31 mrSpec: setf does not print anything to the screen. 20:33:59 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-28-133.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 20:34:07 hmm strange 20:34:09 is there something like nth that instead of returning the nth element returns the nth element and everything after it? 20:34:17 yes... 20:34:30 so nth is this "bad guy" ? 20:34:32 setf returns the last value stored (which is quite handy). the repl prints the value of the expression you typed. therefore, if you use setf at the repl, the repl prints the value, because it's the repl's job (that's the 'P' in REPL) 20:34:35 a-s [n=user@92.80.104.123] has joined #lisp 20:34:41 clhs subseq 20:34:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 20:34:47 kzar: ^^^^ 20:34:56 ah thanks 20:35:20 mrSpec: when you type (progn (setf foo 1) (setf foo 2)) does it print both 1 and 2? 20:35:53 nope only 2 20:36:08 mrSpec: so, how is it possible that setf prints something? 20:36:32 mrSpec: if it only prints the last number, then it is clear that it is printing the result? 20:36:39 ok, I see. have to check this program one more time. something else must be wrong 20:38:37 l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 20:48:30 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.163.206] has quit [] 20:49:26 _6502_ [n=agri@94.36.245.185] has joined #lisp 20:50:45 <_6502_> hello... i saw that #' is not needed with lambdas on both SBCL and CLISP but "pratical common lisp" and other docs use "#'(lambda ...", is there a reason ? 20:51:02 Yes. 20:51:30 But the reason boils down to "personal style". 20:54:21 hi, when trying to apply an undefined function i get several restarts, is there a way to add another restart? (i'm using clisp) 20:55:01 Yes, there is. Have a look at WITH-SIMPLE-RESTART, RESTART-CASE, RESTART-BIND, and friends. 20:55:10 clhs with-simple-restart 20:55:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_smp_.htm 20:56:33 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a65133@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-51a78e78dca9d38d] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:57:47 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.162.15.199] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:57:52 clhs restart-case 20:57:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rst_ca.htm 21:01:42 -!- krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has quit ["changing servers"] 21:04:21 Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has joined #lisp 21:04:22 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-155.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:04:52 evening 21:04:59 Hello Krystof. 21:05:40 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:06:04 krimpet [n=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has joined #lisp 21:08:20 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3ee1.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:08:52 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:14:32 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:14:55 nivya [n=nivya@c-24-1-184-2.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:35 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:15:54 -!- nxt [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:55 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:19:20 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 21:20:36 nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 21:20:36 yeah! hetman problem solver is working, and only returns boards :) 21:20:37 -!- cads is now known as thbulletscame2me 21:21:14 -!- thbulletscame2me is now known as cadsmack 21:21:31 n queen problem* in english 21:22:45 *nyef* sighs. 21:23:03 You know you have a terminology problem when one of the variables in your program is called *magic-number*. 21:24:13 magic-number ? 21:24:21 Yeah. 21:26:07 [df]_ [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:09 It's something to do with the relationship between a frequency value as specified by the CPU interface and the number of output samples over a single... I want to say "wave period", but I don't know if that's at all correct. 21:28:35 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host240-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 21:29:41 anuj [n=anuj@210.212.55.3] has joined #lisp 21:31:53 impomatic [n=John@nat65.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:33:25 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:33:35 -!- user___ [n=user@p5492667A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:34:22 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 21:35:34 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 21:36:03 -!- impomatic [n=John@nat65.mia.three.co.uk] has quit ["http://impomatic.blogspot.com"] 21:36:12 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Client Quit] 21:37:43 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 21:37:49 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:56 -!- [df] [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:52 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:36 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:02 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-151-10.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:45:15 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [":wq"] 21:45:37 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 21:46:55 -!- Mannerisky [n=Manneris@24-117-137-23.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:47 romeo_r [n=r@20158172089.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 21:51:42 -!- ginkgo [n=user@chello084113198244.17.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:18 So basically how many samples you can get over a certain period of time, based on the clock speed of the CPU? 21:53:36 -!- cadsmack [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 21:54:10 It's calculated based on the clock speed of the sn76489 and the output rate of the synthesizer. 21:55:25 user____ [n=user@p549238F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:15 AFAICT, having not even -thought- about this stuff in years, it's the fraction of a full wave period that a channel will advance over the course of one output sample period when set to the highest frequency allowed (wihch happens to be 1, as lower numbers are higher pitched). 21:59:31 -!- romeo_r [n=r@20158172089.user.veloxzone.com.br] has left #lisp 22:00:09 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:40 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:08 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:04:49 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-238-145.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:05:54 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:07:22 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6D5AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:08:31 -!- user____ [n=user@p549238F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:09:07 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:10:13 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:12:19 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:46 *Lone_Wanderer* looks up and can just *barely* see that statement, off in the distance, flying over his head. 22:14:10 nyef: so what does zero do? 22:14:21 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-28-133.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:14:40 It causes the wave to not advance. 22:15:12 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:15:26 Which is actually useful, as you can then bang on the volume controls as if they were a DAC. 22:17:06 hehhh 22:17:21 yay for DC offsets 22:17:51 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 22:18:00 output is capacitively coupled? 22:18:19 otherwise you'd only be generating above or below zero via volume 22:18:48 looking at half amplitude then anyway 22:19:23 manuel__ [n=manuel@g225144066.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:19:42 or else I guess you could adjust speed to cause the dc offset to flip as needed to get the right resulting dc offset 22:19:53 how delightfully awkward 22:21:23 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-223.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 22:23:20 DC... sine waves...? 22:23:25 or am I misunderstanding? 22:25:34 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 22:26:02 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:08 beach: aroundp 22:27:03 It feels like the wrong time of day for beach to be here. 22:27:20 darn 22:27:53 I was going to ask him about his suggestion for implementing the Doligez-Leroy collector in SBCL. 22:28:05 Krystof [n=csr21@dhcp192.dagstuhl.de] has joined #lisp 22:28:10 The what collector? 22:28:21 *nyef* doesn't remember that one offhand. 22:28:59 http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=174673 22:29:19 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:42 bachelor thesis? 22:30:25 Sounds interesting. 22:30:39 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:30:59 Does lead to the question, what are the host memory system requirements? 22:31:19 yes, but apparently it's mostly useful for immutable datastructures 22:31:41 i.e., the per-thread nurseries can only hold immutable data 22:31:50 All of the concurrent collectors that I remember require being able to double-map a page. 22:32:08 which doesn't sound very useful for CL, does it? 22:32:17 Doesn't sound so bad, actually. 22:32:27 Mostly it's going to be numbers or conses anyway. 22:32:31 And numbers are immutable. 22:32:49 nyef: are bignums immutable? 22:33:00 They're supposed to be. 22:33:14 ... They're unboxed data inside anyway. 22:33:44 IIUC, their vector can shrink. 22:34:06 I assume that means it's modified at some point. 22:34:15 That seems a little wierd... Unless they're over-allocated in some cases. 22:34:28 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:34:48 is there a function that waits indefinitely and never returns? 22:34:51 But I'd expect the immutability requirement to be primarily a matter of not allowing the reference set to change, not anything more strict. 22:35:21 seh` [n=seh@c-24-131-239-140.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:23 timor: (lambda () (loop)), isn't it? 22:35:28 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-28-133.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 22:35:44 nyef: it's more strict than that because there will be two copies of the same object at some point. 22:35:56 luis: Ah. I see. 22:36:05 timor: (read) 22:36:33 nyef: so, what immutable structures does CL have anyway? 22:36:43 -!- seh` [n=seh@c-24-131-239-140.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:36:51 Structures as opposed to...? 22:37:02 s/structures/data structures/ 22:37:06 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:37:27 luis: Almost none, alas. 22:37:57 Semantically, integers are immutable, as are empty lists (as they are NIL, and NIL is constant)... 22:37:57 -!- tomsw [n=user@d54C1C1A4.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 22:38:06 Characters. 22:38:52 nyef: what makes you say immutable-only nurseries don't sound so bad then? 22:40:15 Oh! All number types are immutable, including complexes and the various floats. 22:40:46 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 22:41:28 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:31 Because most of the various object types don't get allocated quite so often as numbers, in theory. 22:41:35 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:42:01 In SBCL, I believe SAPs are immutable. 22:42:12 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:42:44 The compiler also has a nasty habit of taking a SAP passed in by reference, unboxing it, and then allocating a new SAP as part of boxing it to pass to another function. 22:42:55 That one pissed me off when I ran into it. 22:45:54 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 22:46:03 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@g225144066.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:46:03 Hmm. Numbers... 22:47:02 Numbers, certain pointy things, that's about it. 22:47:27 Do programs allocate that many numbers? 22:47:45 *luis* has no clue... 22:48:01 It depends on the program, really. 22:48:30 I think that a lot of number-heavy programs go out of their way not to let the compiler box the numbers. 22:49:07 As the cost of boxing and unboxing, particularly of integers that can be larger than a fixnum, can be exhorbitant. 22:49:19 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:41 But, if a program only deals with fixnums, there wouldn't be any allocation would it? 22:50:52 Indeed not. 22:51:48 And you'll probably find that those programs that do a lot of floaty math arrange things so that the floats are stored in specialized arrays and rarely if ever passed outside them. 22:51:58 Right. 22:52:21 And those arrays, being immutable, wouldn't be in this Doligez nursery. 22:52:29 erm 22:52:32 Being mutable. 22:52:35 I meant mutable, of course. 22:52:42 Yeah, they'd be long-lived, too. 22:55:37 Nhe, I'm going to skip this one for now. It really doesn't strike me as useful for most CL programs. 22:55:46 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:55:50 phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 22:55:54 unfrickable [n=PC@201.170.83.182] has joined #lisp 22:55:55 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:56:00 Over 80% of NEGROS lack the latest mutations on Haplogroup D that allow for higher though processes. Learn even more facts about the people that hail from the Dark Continent by joining Chimpout!! http://www.chimpout.com/forum/index.php At chimpout.com all races that aren't Negroid are welcome. We love and respect Asians, Whites, Indians, Native Americans, Mestizos, and non-negroid Jews (no Sammy Davis Jr.s). Join us in the epic battle of humans vs n 22:56:07 iiiggggeeers. http://www.chimpout.com/forum/index.php 22:56:25 -!- unfrickable [n=PC@201.170.83.182] has quit [K-lined] 22:56:35 nyef: I've found one of those double-mmaping algorithms you mentioned: the Compressor. 22:56:53 Yeah. That one seemed cool. 22:57:11 But, you can't really do that on Win32, so... 22:57:33 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 22:57:38 I've also found some that are lock-free. 22:57:46 Those sound quite impressive. 22:59:53 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:36 But mostly I'm just overwhelmed by the sheer amount of GC papers published in the last, say, 5 years. 23:00:46 I blame Java and .Net. 23:00:53 Mostly Java. 23:01:47 A lot of them are sponsored by Microsoft, yeah. IBM and Intel too. 23:04:50 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-28-133.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:04:52 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:08:27 if i use restart-bind, is the bound restart evaluated in the context of the restart-case where the error occurs? from hyperspec i understand it is in the env of invoke-restart, but how does it relate to the restart-case? 23:09:54 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 23:10:04 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl10-228-1.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:10:15 perhaps the snippet at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74245 clarifies my question? 23:10:51 felix^^: With RESTART-BIND, your restart-functions are permitted to decline. With RESTART-CASE, by the time they get control it's too late. 23:10:57 -!- nivya [n=nivya@c-24-1-184-2.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:12:09 nyef: what do you mean it is too late? can't i substitute the value of the restart-case expression with my restart expr? 23:12:24 -!- _6502_ [n=agri@94.36.245.185] has left #lisp 23:13:13 i would have expected that in my snippet test evaluates to 23 23:13:44 felix^^: Perhaps you should read CLHS 9.1.4.2? 23:14:08 And, in fact, the entireity of 9.1 and its subsections? 23:15:19 felix^^_ [n=fgeller@dslb-088-074-206-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:34 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:18:44 what would work is replacing the restart-case with a catch, and have the restart handler throw 23:20:21 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:21:17 -!- felix^^ [n=fgeller@dslb-092-078-106-001.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:24:53 manuel_ [n=manuel@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 23:36:03 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:53 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:44 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.246.120] has joined #lisp 23:38:41 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit ["leaving"] 23:40:46 yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:40:53 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:47:32 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit [] 23:49:13 -!- singhv [n=vsingh@CPE0014bf4af6c2-CM000a739caee2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 23:49:21 luis: would love to hear your take on the sheer volume of JIT compilation papers too 23:49:28 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:32 *nyef* blames Java and .Net again. 23:51:28 -!- anuj [n=anuj@210.212.55.3] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:51:38 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 23:53:31 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:53 Beeet [n=stathis@ppp12-241.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:55:02 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:55:48 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 23:57:53 Whoops. No wonder this didn't work. Forgot the #@$@T%# magic number. 23:58:50 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."]