00:00:10 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:00:10 -!- andrewy [n=irssi@cl-53.lax-01.us.sixxs.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:00:43 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:00:53 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:01:59 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 00:02:36 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@97-113-55-158.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [] 00:05:25 kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has joined #lisp 00:05:42 andrewy [i=andrewy@209.126.180.153] has joined #lisp 00:10:56 -!- dsrc [n=dsrc@198.145.218.203] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:11:24 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:41 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:11:43 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:01 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:14:13 dsrcsrcr [n=dsrcsrcr@198.145.218.203] has joined #lisp 00:14:17 r 00:14:18 re 00:21:13 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:23:03 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:24:39 jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:54 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:29:15 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-051-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:33:06 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-002-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:32 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@CPE0016b6145127-CM001a6682dc74.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:35:49 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-046-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:25 -!- mrSpec [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has quit ["Bye!"] 00:41:10 -!- df_aldur [n=df@aldur.torak.ewdc.nl.bowerham.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:45:36 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@CPE0016b6145127-CM001a6682dc74.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:46:31 -!- fallenz^ [i=Fallen_@c-71-193-112-7.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:55:34 stathis_: have a look at tracing-labels in http://darcs.informatimago.com/lisp/common-lisp/utility.lisp 00:55:49 thank you pjb 00:59:51 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BE83.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:01:30 mgs` [n=mgs@unaffiliated/mgs/x-0000001] has joined #lisp 01:03:34 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:58 -!- ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:17 ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:22 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 01:07:15 carchidi [n=carchidi@ourteam1.com] has joined #lisp 01:09:26 mmonix [n=chatzill@adsl-69-230-98-43.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:16 simplechat_ [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:11:11 sohum [n=sohum@114.73.146.128] has joined #lisp 01:11:43 hmm. is (break) supposed to be used to poke at the environment when it's called? 01:11:47 prxq_ [n=mommer@BAI182e.bai.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:12:02 -!- prxq_ [n=mommer@BAI182e.bai.pppool.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:12:12 What sort of environment did you have in mind? 01:12:26 let bindings and labels and suchlike 01:12:40 That's a little system-specific. 01:13:28 so is there a command that says "now, after executing all the code to this point, drop me into a debugger"? 01:13:44 I certainly wouldn't expect to be able to alter a local function or macro definition from within BREAK, but I might expect to be able to tweak local variables depending on the implementation and optimzation settings. 01:13:56 Yes, BREAK is that command. 01:14:05 I don't even want to tweak them, I just want to see what they are 01:14:51 You should be good to go, then, modulo possible optimization settings. 01:15:14 it doesn't seem to work, though. lemme pull up a testcase, gimme a sec 01:15:46 try to (declaim (debug 3)) before 01:15:53 no 01:16:06 (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) 01:16:53 -!- simplechat_ [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:17:40 nopr 01:17:52 (defun test (x) 01:17:53 (let ((y (+ x 1))) 01:17:53 (break))) 01:18:02 lisppaste: url? 01:18:03 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 01:18:03 don't paste here 01:18:16 not even three lines worth? 01:18:18 fair enough 01:18:36 not even, i can't copy and paste them easily, for example 01:19:22 sohum: an unused variable might be hard to get to. 01:19:45 pkhuong: ? 01:20:04 any ecl users/developers about? 01:20:42 -!- prxq [n=mommer@Xad3d.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:20:57 sohum pasted "break problems" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73789 01:21:14 I'm not sure what you mean by unused, pkhuong 01:21:32 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 01:21:44 you are not using Y 01:21:47 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:21:55 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:22:24 Anyway, if you want to eval in a frame, you have to press e while the pointer is on the frame. 01:22:47 the REPL is still at the toplevel (lexical) scope. 01:23:00 ahha 01:23:33 that is in slime? 01:23:39 freesign [n=ghang@116.234.211.180] has joined #lisp 01:23:45 hmm, ecl's build is not boosting my confidence in it being a high-quality lisp implementation 01:23:54 -!- iof [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:41 stassats: yes 01:25:54 pressing e still doesn't seem to work.. 01:25:55 then you will see in the backtrace (test 10) 01:26:00 press enter on it 01:26:35 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 01:26:36 froydnj: which os? 01:26:40 sohum: what do you mean by "doesn't work"? 01:26:52 froydnj: and what is the problem? 01:26:57 pkhuong: it still complains of unbound variables 01:26:59 apparently, sohum pressed it in the wrong frame 01:27:38 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:39 sohum: you need to do it on 1: (TEST ...) line in slime 01:28:05 or simply press enter on it, it will display locals 01:29:01 that's interesting, y doesn't seem to be in the locals 01:29:11 sohum: because it's not used anywhere. 01:29:23 insert (print y) before break 01:30:05 interesting 01:30:15 froydnj: I wouldn't call ECL "high-quality" 01:30:27 what's the optimisation I have to turn off to disable this removing of unused locals? 01:30:48 why do you need to remove it? 01:31:37 because I want to poke, among other things, some labels forms and don't really want to (print ...) for every one? 01:32:09 sohum: you can pass them as arguments to BREAK. 01:33:10 japhie: (defstruct (foo (:type (vector (unsigned-byte 32)))) (a 0) (b 0)) and then doing (foo-a (make-foo :a 1)) in compiled code is broken 01:33:57 froydnj: is it even allowed by the spec? 01:34:45 clhs says: type---one of the type specifiers list, vector, or (vector size), or some other type specifier defined by the implementation to be appropriate. 01:35:15 so you can't expect specifying type of vector to work. 01:35:45 Ecl should yell at you, that's sure, but I think this one isn't "appropriate" type specifier. 01:36:00 japhie: sure you can, see the extended explanation for DEFSTRUCT 01:36:05 -!- stathis_ [n=stathis@ppp154-85.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:30 in particular, the :TYPE is explicitly allowed to be (VECTOR ) 01:36:31 japhie: (vector size) isn't even a legal type designator. 01:36:55 pkhuong: how am I supposed to pass the labels forms to break? 01:37:09 pkhuong: although the (vector size) bit comes from the defstruct page, so... =/ 01:37:10 pkhuong: and really, it'd be easier if I could turn off that particular optimisation 01:37:11 sohum: what do you mean by labels form? 01:37:13 Umm... Wait, wait. Since when was (vector ) a valid type specifier? 01:37:45 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 01:37:51 pkhuong: instead of (let ) in the test code, I have (labels ), defining quite a few local functions 01:38:54 froydnj, pkhuong: looks like clhs is contradicting itself. Extended description says it's legal, short description doesn't list this and lists wrong type specifier. 01:39:26 where? 01:39:28 The short description is clearly the wrong one, as the actual size (length) could (and arguably should) be determined from the number of slots. 01:39:34 Anyhow, I'll look into this, I thought you're asking about building ecl itself, which may be funny sometimes and I'm a bit more familiar with it. 01:39:41 nyef: right. 01:39:49 so that's legal code. 01:40:04 just requires setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH if you're not installing into a standard location...which I guess is OK 01:40:08 sohum: are you certain your implementation can even use local functions in the debugger? 01:40:15 and min_ecl != bin/ecl :) 01:40:20 Alternately, one could take the position that it's explicitly allowed to compile without error, but do arbitrary wrong things at runtime. 01:40:54 (Although there's probably somewhere early in CLHS that says otherwise.) 01:41:21 pkhuong: hm, no. But I kinda figured that's a pretty basic requirement 01:41:39 pkhuong: it's sbcl 01:41:42 froydnj: this works for me (ecl 0.9l from macports) 01:42:31 froydnj: You're not trying to do that from within the same file, are you? 01:42:47 japhie pasted "ecl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73791 01:42:54 sohum: I don't use the debugger heavily; trace, break, print and paper for me. Someone else might know better. 01:43:01 nyef: actually I am, but the defstruct is wrapped in eval-when 01:43:07 Fair enough. 01:43:13 Figured I'd cover that angle. 01:43:14 Dirt [n=Dirt@74.193.165.64] has joined #lisp 01:43:32 -!- Dirt [n=Dirt@74.193.165.64] has left #lisp 01:43:39 japhie: does it work with ironclad? 'cause that's where the original bug report came from 01:44:20 wait a minute, I'll check. 01:44:53 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:46:30 *froydnj* finds a missed declaration in ironclad 01:46:53 froydnj: md4.lisp fails to compile 01:47:06 yup, that would be the bug report 01:47:47 but I'm way too sleepy now to debug these macros 01:48:11 oh, hm, "Broken at SI:BYTECODES.No restarts available." fun 01:48:37 oh, for me it gracefully drops to debugger. Well... 01:48:42 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 01:48:50 oh, this is something different 01:50:07 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:50:10 what is your version of ecls, C compiler and operating system? 01:50:56 ecl pulled from git about 20 minutes ago, gcc 4.3.2 (Ubuntu 4.3.2-1ubuntu11), and Ubuntu 8.10 + whatever updates have come along 01:51:02 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@CPE0016b6145127-CM001a6682dc74.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:51:37 Ok. I'm testing on ecl-0.9l with gcc-4.0.1 on macos 10.5 01:53:04 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:53:12 oh, x86, if it makes any difference 01:53:33 maybe they're currently working on the compiler and something unstable is in git, I don't track the devel list anymore. 01:54:15 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@CPE0016b6145127-CM001a6682dc74.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:54:18 well, if compiling ironclad bombs on yours, I assume it bombs on mine, too (although I haven't verified it yet) 01:54:38 the code for the compiler to optimize structure accesses looks bogus for specialized array structures 01:54:39 doesn't compile for me as well 01:54:44 on 8.12 01:55:41 it's buried too deep for me atm. 01:56:11 yup, compiling ironclad broken on the dev branch, too 01:56:13 Bring it up on devel list, or ask juanjo directly if he visits here. 01:56:33 It's been a few years since I touched the insides of ecl. 01:56:47 ah, ok 01:58:34 -!- dsrcsrcr [n=dsrcsrcr@198.145.218.203] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:59:30 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:00:23 japhie: thanks for poking at it a bit, then 02:00:26 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 02:04:28 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:39 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-58-237.man.east.verizon.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 02:12:13 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.223.189] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:21:18 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:21:29 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:13 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:23:44 -!- ypsa [n=ypsa@217-115-252-250.cust.avonet.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:00 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:27:00 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:29:11 -!- repnop [n=repnop@adsl-69-225-5-16.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:29:11 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 02:33:54 jollygood_ [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:02 -!- japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has quit [] 02:34:43 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-24-85.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:36:18 schmx [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:37:26 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-69-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:37:39 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:38:58 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk111.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:40:00 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 02:41:20 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A06F1.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:42:22 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:53 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:45:41 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:50:46 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:47 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:53:26 Is there a function that returns a copy of a sequence with the nth element substituted? 02:54:16 (setf (elt (copy-seq seq) 10) 'd) ? 02:55:04 works i guess :) 02:55:06 thank you 02:55:54 l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 02:56:09 or (substitute-if 'fooo (constantly t) #(a b c d) :start 3 :count 1) 02:57:19 The first option looks better 02:57:33 <_3b> the second one might not copy the entire sequence if it is a list though 02:59:10 benny [n=benny@i577A02EA.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:59:36 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:05 now i noticed the first one returns the actual element and not the sequence 03:00:09 :) 03:01:08 you know how to do it, right? 03:01:19 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 03:01:19 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-235-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:01:28 stassats: yes 03:06:02 _3b: are you referring to "return a sequence which can share with sequence or may be identical to the input sequence if no elements need to be changed."? 03:06:11 -!- cavelife^ is now known as cavelife 03:06:19 <_3b> stassats: right 03:06:31 because i doubt how to interpret it 03:07:08 does that mean ".. share .. if no elements need to be changed."? 03:07:46 obviously, this sentence wrote not a mathematician 03:07:55 <_3b> i read it as '... identical ... if no elements need to be changed' 03:08:39 is that common in English language? 03:08:42 <_3b> if some elements need to be changed, then only elements after that could be shared 03:09:53 <_3b> there is probably some way to make that precise in English, but they stopped teaching that sort of thing before i was in school :( 03:11:27 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:37 <_3b> i'd probably use 'or which may' instead of 'or may' if i wanted to clarify, but i'm not sure how common that would be 03:11:57 Looks perfectly clear to me :) 03:11:57 <_3b> possibly with a , before the or 03:11:58 by repetition of "share", i was always daunted by the amount of needless repetition in math texts 03:12:53 stassats: I'm always daunted by the needless repetition in daily newspapers :) 03:13:06 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:13:17 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:14:12 but apparently in math case they're not always useless 03:21:37 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@CPE0016b6145127-CM001a6682dc74.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:26:44 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:02 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:38:08 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-121.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:41:59 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:42:20 krimpet [n=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has joined #lisp 03:44:02 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:48:23 ok, I've just installed the iterate package 03:48:40 and am trying to use it via (require 'asdf) (require 'iterate) 03:49:14 doesn't seem to be working? it works for, say, fare-csv 03:50:20 then you didn't properly install it 03:52:32 gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-6-233-10.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:50 -!- davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:53:51 sohum: on sbcl it should work 03:54:02 as in, slime recognises the function exists, and that there's documentation for it 03:54:30 but iterate forms expand out weirdly and not how it's supposed to 03:54:59 fe[nl]ix: the standard (require 'asdf) (require 'asdf-install) (asdf-install:install 'iterate) is what I did 03:55:17 oh, iterate itself doesn't work, i thought require doesn't work 03:55:33 sohum: does (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :iterate) work ? 03:57:14 fe[nl]ix: nope 03:58:04 sohum: How is it not working? 03:58:55 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 03:59:38 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 04:00:15 sohum pasted "iterate failing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73796 04:01:17 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:13 symbols must be qualified 04:02:24 or (use-package :iter) 04:04:09 aaah 04:04:28 ...though (use-package :iter) throws up a bunch of symbol conflicts 04:04:42 sure, you already interned them 04:04:57 while trying to evaluate that code 04:05:35 schme [n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:05:36 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Client Quit] 04:06:01 schme [n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:09:59 hm, so it turns out I have to (require '#:iterate) (use-package '#:iterate) 04:10:13 just so it never conflicts. interesting, and thanks! 04:10:46 and watch out your code doesn't conflict 04:11:13 *nod* 04:12:46 loop is different in that respect that it uses only symbol names 04:13:46 that being the disadvantage of keeping lispy syntax, I suppose 04:14:11 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:01 no, you can parse it as well 04:16:07 oh? 04:17:13 you can make lispy loop construct using just symbol names 04:22:00 so why didn't the writers of iterate? 04:23:49 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:42 it's better to ask them, though i see the only reason: you can call some other functions (iter (for d in list) (my-package:for d)) 04:25:22 nivya [n=nivya@c-24-1-184-2.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:31 -!- nivya [n=nivya@c-24-1-184-2.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:25:35 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:26:32 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:26:45 hmm. thanks! 04:33:16 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 04:38:36 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.14] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:40:06 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:43:27 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:43:51 -!- jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:46:48 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 04:51:54 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:52:21 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:10 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:56:33 netaustin [n=austinsm@c-68-53-173-151.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:53 -!- aggieben_ [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:01:38 phf [n=phf@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:42 -!- jollygood_ [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:05:17 -!- mmonix [n=chatzill@adsl-69-230-98-43.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:06:15 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4699A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:27 pngwen [n=knoppix@68.47.170.239] has joined #lisp 05:06:37 i have some code that assumes (unsigned-byte 8) stream io, which i would like to do in memory. i can't use with-*-string, because they are explicitly character 05:06:53 is there perhaps ready made gray stream code, that lets me read write on a vector? 05:07:32 <_3b> flexi-streams has one i think 05:08:29 -!- freesign [n=ghang@116.234.211.180] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:08:34 ah, yes, flexi-streams has vector-stream, which is what i need. thanks! 05:09:24 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:09:30 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46B04.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:11:06 -!- gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-6-233-10.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:12:01 How can i make an object printable? 05:12:17 See print-object 05:12:19 clhs print-object 05:12:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm 05:12:38 thank you 05:12:55 mulligan [n=user@e178014143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:14:10 if I get an infinite loop in slime, how do I cancel execution? 05:14:50 C-c C-c 05:14:56 <_3b> C-c C-c from repl, C-c C-b from lisp buffers 05:15:17 thankee 05:15:42 aggieben_ [n=aggieben@63.246.56.57] has joined #lisp 05:15:48 -!- aggieben_ is now known as aggeiben 05:15:51 -!- aggeiben is now known as aggieben 05:17:23 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:21:10 netaustin_ [n=austinsm@c-68-53-173-151.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:53 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E152.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:46 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177144203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:23:02 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1CE4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:22 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-0-48.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:03 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:26:06 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:36 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@c-68-53-173-151.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:34:22 -!- netaustin_ [n=austinsm@c-68-53-173-151.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:43:47 netaustin [n=austinsm@c-68-53-173-151.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:05 -!- aggieben [n=aggieben@63.246.56.57] has left #lisp 05:47:13 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:48:29 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:49:00 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:05 gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-6-233-10.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:35 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:54:47 -!- l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit ["leaving"] 05:55:02 elurin [n=user@85.99.168.9] has joined #lisp 06:09:38 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:12:05 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:22:29 brandelune [n=suzume@pl096.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:26:27 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:26:35 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:31 off-topic: does anyone know where i can find theorems about checkers? 06:27:52 -!- sohum [n=sohum@114.73.146.128] has left #lisp 06:28:04 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 06:31:27 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 06:32:20 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl096.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 06:32:34 brandelune [n=suzume@pl096.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:33:41 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl096.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:33:51 brandelune [n=suzume@pl096.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:38:50 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.227.105] has joined #lisp 06:44:32 -!- pngwen [n=knoppix@68.47.170.239] has quit ["goodnight everyone!"] 06:48:39 -!- phf [n=phf@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 06:52:06 syncom [n=syncom@pvil-d-180.resnet.purdue.edu] has joined #lisp 06:52:30 A function to get a column from a matrix (using usual 2-dimensional array representation)? 06:53:05 drdo: no magic, just copy it. 06:53:24 ? 06:53:30 I mean.. getting a column by index 06:54:37 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-164-137.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:56:22 in LOOP, how can i "collect" into a vector? 06:56:34 -!- syncom [n=syncom@pvil-d-180.resnet.purdue.edu] has left #lisp 06:57:00 aravind [n=aravind@c-98-234-108-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:06 you can't, pass it as argument to :initial-contents to make-array, for example 06:57:24 hi 06:57:55 or make array and set its elements in each iteration 07:00:30 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-26-48.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 07:03:03 -!- wol [n=wol@c-24-4-220-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:03:20 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 07:03:43 I am trying to write some basic LDAP parsing code, and am using the trivial-ldap library. I have an object that seems to behave one way in the repl, but a different way within my program. I am fairly new to lisp so am looking for some help figuring it out. 07:04:21 http://pastebin.com/d157019b1 <---- me is the object I am talking about. 07:05:26 when I call (print-cn me) there, it just prints nil, but when I do exactly what that print-cn function does in the repl, it works. 07:08:36 is 'CN in the right package? 07:09:30 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:11:17 srcerer_ [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 07:11:20 did you add 'CN attribute from the repl? 07:11:54 stassats`: I am not sure what you mean. 'CN is supposed to be just any symbol (that stands for ldap attributes). 07:12:21 aravind: right, but symbols reside in packages 07:12:57 stassats`: should I be qualifying it within my program code? with something like trivial-ldap:CN ? 07:13:10 yeah, I remember someone else having issues with *package* and LDAP some time ago. 07:13:35 aravind: either that, or use keywords 07:15:06 now I am really confused! I thought that if you declared that you were using the ldap package in the beginning, you wouldn't need to qualify it. 07:15:24 and in my program, I am declaring it in the defpackage. 07:15:46 look, you have cl-user package in the repl, and com.mozilla.ldap in the file 07:16:09 so at the repl you are doing (ldap:attr-value ldap-object 'CL-USER::CN) 07:16:40 and (ldap:attr-value ldap-object 'COM.MOZILLA.LDAp::CN) in the file 07:16:52 hence the difference 07:16:54 oh.. 07:19:25 you can do (in-package :com.mozilla.ldap) at the repl 07:19:26 -!- krimpet [n=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:19:58 that worked (saying 'CL-USER::CN in the file). 07:20:41 but I never defined CL-USER::CN explicitly at the repl. Not sure why that would work. 07:21:38 symbols read are interned in the current package 07:22:18 *aravind* should go back and read the packages chapter in pcl again.. 07:22:30 good idea 07:23:13 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-121.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:24:19 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-121.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:24:56 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:26:36 stassats`: so this is what I don't get. I defined everything in my file under the COM.MOZILLA.LDAP package. All my code there and any new variables there should all be in the COM.MOZILLA.LDAP package. When I refer to CN, that should also be in the same package? You say symbols read are interned in the current package. If I quit and re-start the repl and call my print-cn function, I haven't interned CN explicity anywhere, and my 07:26:36 function call still fails. 07:27:44 i haven't seen all your code 07:30:19 in any case, it is usually better to set repl to the package you are currently working on, via in-package, or ",in" in slime 07:30:29 stassats`: would you mind looking at it? there isn't much more than what I described.. /me is a little embarassed to show it :( 07:30:43 [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.47] has joined #lisp 07:30:43 lisppaste: paste 07:30:47 lisppaste: url 07:30:48 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 07:31:18 we all were beginners at some point 07:33:55 aravind pasted "ex1.lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73799 07:34:18 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:35:35 -!- gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-6-233-10.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:35:51 stassats`: my original goal was to set all those slots in Person (cn, title, etc) in the initialize-instance, but that didn't work.. So I wrote the print-cn to narrow down the problem. 07:38:48 ok, and how do you call it? 07:39:03 you can annotate that paste 07:39:40 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:39:44 (print-cn i see, but where is ME defiend, etc.) 07:41:17 it's really a bug in that ldap library, imo. It interns symbols that are only meant to be used as string designators (since that's all that LDAP offers), but tests for equality with EQL. 07:41:18 stassats`: oh that, I have just been setting it manually in the repl, like (setf me (make-instance 'com.mozilla.ldap:person :mail "blah@me.com" :base "o=net,dc=localhost")) 07:41:27 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:53 and then calling using that like I first showed you. 07:42:25 pkhuong: is there a better library I should be using for ldap related stuff? 07:42:46 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 07:42:52 pkhuong: there is a cl-ldap, but that seemed old and musty, didn't have examples etc. 07:43:42 yep, it's trivial-ldap fault 07:43:56 though, it is not hard to fix 07:45:54 sohum [n=sohum@114.73.146.128] has joined #lisp 07:46:47 ok, so I keep hearing "use s-expressions for config". but how, exactly? I guess I could have (setf *parameter* ..), but how would I save config and such in that case? 07:47:21 gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:27 via print/read 07:49:35 so the order in the config file determines which para it gets set to? 07:49:54 krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has joined #lisp 07:49:56 (or, is there some relatively simple example I could have a look at?) 07:51:56 Grilinctus [n=Aankhen@122.163.227.105] has joined #lisp 07:53:25 (loop for i in list do (format t "(setf ~a ~a)" i (symbol-value i))) 07:53:42 where list is '(*parameter-1* *paremeter-2*) 07:53:59 print it to fie, then load that file 07:54:30 and ~s instead of ~a 07:55:26 ypsa [n=ypsa@217-115-252-250.cust.avonet.cz] has joined #lisp 07:57:38 ...huh. 07:57:43 that's ... really simple 07:57:59 thankee! 08:00:10 you can write some macro, which will defvar variable and put its name into that list 08:00:37 -!- NorthStar [i=email@89.180.200.184] has left #lisp 08:03:51 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 08:06:03 -!- rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:03 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:08:37 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.227.105] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:09:55 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.168.9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:13:32 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-225-143.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 08:20:00 user___ [n=user@p5492489B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:09 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:22:28 bohanlon` [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 08:22:52 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:33 repnop [n=repnop@adsl-69-225-5-16.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:54 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["'night"] 08:24:10 stassats`: thanks for all your help. 08:25:40 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:06 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:30:24 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 08:31:51 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:14 -!- aravind [n=aravind@c-98-234-108-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:49:57 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:53:30 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 08:53:37 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:53:43 Fufie [n=Frog@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:51 drwhen [n=drwho@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:07 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:02:05 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:56 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:06:37 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-046-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:18 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 09:14:41 -!- addled is now known as adlirc 09:14:55 -!- adlirc is now known as addled 09:16:01 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 09:16:07 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 09:21:57 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:05 -!- pierre__thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-57-82-249-10-56.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:25:07 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:26:32 pierre__thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-20-82-64-59-162.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:24 lispm [n=joswig@e177155046.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:38:03 dexter09101112_ [n=dexter09@p57AE57E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:18 flachschwänze!! 09:38:33 -!- dexter09101112_ [n=dexter09@p57AE57E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:40:49 -!- sohum [n=sohum@114.73.146.128] has left #lisp 09:42:26 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:21 LostMonarch [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:49:00 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@97.pool85-49-127.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:49:56 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:50:32 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-231-227.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:30 -!- oklopol [n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:53:37 rootard [n=rootard@tajinc.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:00 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-225-143.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:56:39 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-231-227.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:57:01 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-231-227.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:33 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 10:01:45 is anyone here an old-machine enthusiast? I have a Symbolics host that hasn't been turned on in close to a decade. If someone really wants it (willing to pick it up or pay for shipping from Arizona (US)) then let me know. Sorry to spam the channel but I'm having a hard time finding where I might advertise something like this. 10:02:02 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:02:28 Also try comp.lang.lisp 10:02:54 Zhivago: good point, thanks 10:04:47 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 10:07:03 -!- Grilinctus is now known as Aankhen`` 10:08:51 bob` [n=user@dslb-084-059-025-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:17 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:33 -!- user___ [n=user@p5492489B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 10:21:47 user___ [n=user@p5492489B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:55 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 10:22:32 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-231-227.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:22:50 -!- bob` [n=user@dslb-084-059-025-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:26:18 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-134-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:26:28 oboenbob [n=user@dslb-084-058-199-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:41 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 10:27:39 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@c-68-53-173-151.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:27:59 netaustin [n=austinsm@c-68-53-173-151.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:31 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 10:31:03 mait [n=user@genyv.rot.sgsnet.se] has joined #lisp 10:33:09 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4853.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 10:39:50 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp071.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:44:41 oboenbob` [n=user@dslb-088-068-025-104.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:04 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 10:47:55 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 10:49:14 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16AD44.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:49:27 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 10:51:01 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-046-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:55:05 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp071.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:57:49 -!- oboenbob [n=user@dslb-084-058-199-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:58:16 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.207] has joined #lisp 10:58:35 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-30-206.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 10:59:01 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-046-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:58 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:06:49 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 11:12:53 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@97.pool85-49-127.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:13:02 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:23:56 fgtech [i=nemesis@bnc1.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 11:29:13 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:31:45 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:40:17 vasa [n=vasa@mm-11-86-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 11:43:09 clows [n=clows@cpe90-146-210-193.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 11:43:45 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:43:47 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit ["harddisk-upgrade"] 11:44:26 hello! 11:45:26 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:48:01 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:48:12 hi! 11:52:54 -!- drdo`` is now known as drdo 11:53:04 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 11:53:26 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.47] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:55:03 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@c-68-53-173-151.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:56:04 netaustin [n=austinsm@c-68-53-173-151.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:48 when I define a class slot like (slot-name :initform nil :reader the-slot-name) and the-slot-name is not defined, the mop defines the method and the generic function for this slot. In my situation, for my custom mop, I want that, if the method is not defined, the reader function is implemented differently. Should I work on slot-definition-readers-method ? 11:58:22 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-35-80.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:05:22 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 12:05:29 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@97.pool85-49-127.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:05:32 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@97.pool85-49-127.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 12:10:36 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.207] has left #lisp 12:10:52 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-102.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 12:12:14 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:13:58 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178014143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:14:11 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-11-86-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:38 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.207] has joined #lisp 12:14:43 vasa [n=vasa@mm-25-81-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 12:15:12 -!- user___ [n=user@p5492489B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 12:15:26 user___ [n=user@p5492489B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:58 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:17:41 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:19:00 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:14 clausewitz [n=th@0x535b95eb.kjnxx11.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:23:26 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:23:34 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:24:46 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:26:38 japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has joined #lisp 12:33:07 keramida [n=keramida@adsl64-119.kln.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:34:09 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:37:39 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-25-81-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:37:57 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:41:28 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 12:41:55 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:02 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:52 vasa [n=vasa@mm-22-95-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 12:54:09 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:54:22 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 12:56:34 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 12:57:11 -!- clausewitz [n=th@0x535b95eb.kjnxx11.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:58:01 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:58:23 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 12:58:26 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:01:23 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:02:06 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:44 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp071.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:06:41 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:11:52 drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 13:15:26 Riastradh: Are you here? 13:17:24 Cronos [n=a@5ad4f715.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:58 -!- keramida [n=keramida@adsl64-119.kln.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:17 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-22-95-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:19 vasek [n=vasa@mm-168-86-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 13:20:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:21:58 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:23:00 clausewitz [n=th@0x535b95eb.kjnxx11.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:23:10 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:23:20 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 13:23:26 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:26:10 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:27:28 drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 13:32:31 hello tcr, could you help me plz? when I define a class slot like (slot-name :initform nil :reader the-slot-name) and the-slot-name is not defined, the mop defines the method and the generic function for this slot. In my situation, for my custom mop, I want that, if the method is not defined, the reader function is implemented differently. Should I work on slot-definition-readers-method ? 13:33:37 I'm trying to work on compute-effective-slot-definition but it seems that the method isn't called 13:34:09 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:34:15 kiuma: I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the MOP. I got _AMOP_ as a christmas gift last christmas but I haven't had time to look into it. 13:34:44 compute-effective-slot-method isn't called for instances of STANDARD-CLASS; you'll need to define a custom metaclass 13:35:55 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-86-105.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:35:58 Good afternoon. 13:36:30 good afternoon beach 13:36:47 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-30-249.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 13:37:01 froydnj, already defined my metaclass, but it seems that compute-effective-slot-method isn't callled 13:37:06 hi beach 13:38:06 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@97.pool85-49-127.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 13:38:09 -!- vasek [n=vasa@mm-168-86-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:40:16 are your slots a different class from the usual? 13:43:09 froydnj, some are, if :cms-property-label is given during defclass to the slot, then undefined readers and writers must call (cms-slot-value) and (setf cms-slot-value) instead of slot-value and (setf slot-value) 13:43:26 -!- drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:44:07 froydnj, this because some of the slots must be serialized 13:44:34 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@97.pool85-49-127.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:45:05 and I don't want the user to be worried about serialization logic as much as possible 13:46:41 -!- drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:48:06 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:06 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-037-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:55 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:50:12 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:16 -!- lambda [n=lambda@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:51:24 ahhhhh, I didn't noticed that sbcl makes some optimization on calling compute-effective-slot-definition. froydnj, np the method is called! thanks anyway 13:52:01 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:02 vasek [n=vasa@mm-103-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 13:55:21 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb356d.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:40 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 13:56:17 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:57:05 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-202-92-136.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:57:39 hi does anyone know if closure-html works with lispworks? 14:02:05 Jabberwo_ [n=jens@dslb-082-083-066-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:58 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-037-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:03:16 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-161-123.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:05:20 klausi: why don't you just try it? 14:07:55 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.223.189] has joined #lisp 14:12:46 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4853.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:14:20 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-134-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:49 i tried and i didn't work for me. so i wanted to know if it does for anyone else 14:16:33 madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.18] has joined #lisp 14:18:14 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-046-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:18:59 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:20:04 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:24:58 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 14:28:51 -!- vasek [n=vasa@mm-103-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 14:29:02 vasa [n=vasa@mm-103-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 14:30:21 c|mell [n=cmell@p1187-ipbf3401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:30:33 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:04 -!- Cronos [n=a@5ad4f715.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 14:33:02 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:33:38 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:34:49 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:13 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:58 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:40:52 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:41:58 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp071.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:46:26 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:28 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:52:38 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:57:50 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk84.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 14:58:00 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:00:08 l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 15:02:27 bspencer [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:47 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p1187-ipbf3401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:02:51 crod [n=cmell@p1187-ipbf3401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:03:17 -!- bspencer is now known as [df] 15:04:48 Hi, I want to port my library to lispworks, and I face 2 problems. With the personal edition I cannot run it without GUI, and I cannot compile FiveAM. Can somebody help me? 15:05:29 with the personal edition, you cannot run it without the GUI. That's not changeable 15:05:42 you could always contact lispworks support 15:07:18 ye, I know, but maybe if anyone saves ma an empty image, I can use it with the personal edition... 15:09:55 do the terms of use of the personal edition allow that? 15:13:10 good queestion, it was just a quick idea, but maybe it won't work either 15:14:08 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:16:26 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:47 if it doesn't find the libXm library, it doesn't run the GUI, so I have the console mode :) 15:18:20 but as I see I cannot compile or use fiveam with the personal edition ... :( 15:20:36 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:21:49 What's the problem with fiveam? 15:22:30 it needs the lexical package what I cannot access with PE 15:22:45 or at least I don't know how to load it 15:23:04 to be exact arnesi needs it 15:23:43 in lexenv.lisp 15:24:54 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:27:21 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-103-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:28:26 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.246.120] has joined #lisp 15:28:48 -!- crod [n=cmell@p1187-ipbf3401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:44 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.246.120] has quit [Client Quit] 15:38:12 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 15:41:42 -!- user___ [n=user@p5492489B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:43:07 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:43:27 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@c-71-232-102-206.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:55 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@c-71-232-102-206.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:44:20 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:46 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:45:13 vasa [n=vasa@mm-239-84-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 15:46:22 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 15:46:39 hi Fare 15:46:59 mornin' #lisp 15:47:08 hello sykopomp 15:48:37 s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-228-17.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:58 -!- clausewitz [n=th@0x535b95eb.kjnxx11.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:57:14 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:57:14 mulligan [n=user@e178018076.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:00:51 hi 16:00:55 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16AD44.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:00:59 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 16:01:10 fe[nl]ix, did you follow the discussion about pathname apis for cl? 16:01:13 opt9 [n=user@59.7.205.138] has joined #lisp 16:02:01 Fare: that of two days ago ? 16:02:02 -!- ypsa [n=ypsa@217-115-252-250.cust.avonet.cz] has quit ["leaving"] 16:02:20 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 16:02:23 yes 16:02:37 and/or my suggestion to massively import, say, python's api. 16:02:49 yes, more or less 16:02:59 Fare: got a pointer to that ? 16:03:03 (or ruby's, java's, etc) 16:03:21 python's api: http://docs.python.org/library/os.path.html 16:03:25 it sucks 16:03:32 but less than CL's pathnames 16:03:53 I don't really understand what's so sucky about CL's pathnames :| 16:04:18 sykopomp: 16:04:36 They're not that bad, providing that you never use logical hosts to refer to system files, and only use namestrings to refer to hosted files. :) 16:04:58 ah 16:05:00 1- it's not really portable -- it requires you to rewrite your programs once per compiler+os combination, instead of say, once per os 16:05:55 2- it assumes you always know in advance whether a name refers to a directory or a file -- and doesn't let you handle symlinks 16:06:20 Fare: I still like the idea of using CL-like "abstract" pathnames 16:06:28 3- generally, it abstracts the underlying os away enough that you can't do stuff, not enough that you don't have to do stuff 16:07:00 If you use them for 'virtual lisp file-systems', then it's reasonable. 16:07:05 fe[nl]ix, certainly 16:07:14 python's api looks unixish enough 16:07:26 fe[nl]ix, but since it's intrinsically not extensible and not portable, we need to redo our stuff better 16:07:27 Fare: please give me an example of a case where you don't know in advance whether you want to refer to a file or to a directory 16:07:40 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:07:40 fe[nl]ix, walking the directory 16:07:53 weirdo: I'm sure that's a real disadvantage when you want to port your program to TOPS-20 16:07:59 exploring some directory layout set by someone else 16:08:15 jsnell, or ITS 16:08:27 Fare: please give me a (non-)working example. code not words 16:08:30 can't cl pathnames handle symlinks with TRUENAME, though? 16:08:38 user___ [n=user@p5492447D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:42 "walking the directory" is too ambiguous 16:09:21 fe[nl]ix, for every file in directory, do something that may or may not depend on the file being a symlink, having a specific name pattern, etc. 16:09:26 e.g. implement "find" in CL 16:10:24 or implement "rsync" in CL 16:10:56 or "ugarit" (see alaric snell's recent blog post) 16:11:35 hmm 16:11:41 or replace a random shell script with CL code 16:11:53 i'd use osicat and tell windows users to contact microsoft support 16:12:30 weirdo, not enough -- osicat still currently relies on things like CL pathnames and CL strings for filenames. 16:12:45 some filenames might not be valid CL strings. 16:13:08 especially with char encoding mismatch 16:13:10 then use strings as unix filename designators consistently 16:13:23 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:13:32 "consistently" -- then we cannot use CL pathnames. 16:13:37 as for encodings, document that using non-utf8 LC_CTYPE is undefined behavior 16:13:40 yes 16:13:47 Fare: uhh, what do you use for filenames, then?... 16:14:00 |this is a filename|? 16:14:15 Fare: there are problems with how CL pathnames are specified(and implemented), but it's needed are a few adjustments 16:14:23 sykopomp, whatever the OS interface uses -- 0-terminated byte arrays. 16:14:27 instead of dealing with strings as python 16:14:38 fe[nl]ix, clhs allows no adjustment. 16:14:49 fe[nl]ix, if you're going to be incompatible, do it for real 16:15:20 I don't care about compatibility 16:15:29 (I'll echo that) 16:15:40 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:50 fe[nl]ix, problem is -- the CL approach requires the implementation to be omniscient about the underlying filesystems. Works for genera. Works in past times where filesystems didn't evolve much. Completely false today. 16:15:54 but I like the essence of CL pathnames 16:16:06 I like it, when it works. 16:16:17 it cannot be guaranteed to work 16:16:32 so it cannot be the basic promise to the programmer 16:16:32 it can be made to work 16:16:44 it cannot in a way that's future-proof 16:17:00 I don't care about that either 16:17:19 I'm not sure we actually disagree, though 16:17:20 I want something that works now 16:17:40 same here -- and that means, give direct access to system calls, and get out of the way 16:17:51 if file systems will change significantly 10 years from now, the pathname impl. will adapt. 16:18:11 Fare: can that be done portably at the library level, or do you need to dig into an implementation? 16:18:45 hopefully, you can move a lot at the library level -- by essentially short-circuiting the implementation 16:19:26 well, i'd like to see what you come up with. 16:19:31 me too 16:19:48 i'd love to be able to get rid of the system integration kind of code I still use python to write. 16:20:10 you'll still need some path->pathname function to feed the result into cl:open, cl:load, cl:compile-file (when you need to) 16:20:19 what is going on 16:20:25 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:27 oh wait, that's a d 16:20:41 netaustin_ [n=austinsm@c-68-53-173-151.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:15 Fare: that's why I have iolib.base. More shadowing :D 16:21:16 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-239-84-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 16:21:28 vasa [n=vasa@mm-239-84-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 16:21:34 minion: chant 16:21:35 MORE SHADOWING 16:22:11 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-239-84-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:42 -!- opt9 [n=user@59.7.205.138] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:23:27 fe[nl]ix, you should split iolib.base into two packages -- one w/o the extra symbols 16:25:16 no utf-8 in /nick, or else I'd /nick Faré 16:27:16 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:28:16 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@c-68-53-173-151.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:05 macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:29:13 Fare: also consider the behaviour of ls when given a symlink that points to a directory 16:29:34 or rm 16:29:45 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-88-217-86-59.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 16:30:10 rm symlink/ -> rm: cannot remove `symlink/': Not a directory 16:30:19 rm symlink -> ok 16:30:37 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 16:32:52 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:34:13 fe[nl]ix, gah! Typical screwup with cl:pathname 16:34:38 -!- user___ [n=user@p5492447D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Changing server"] 16:35:38 josemanuel [n=josemanu@244.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:38:23 Fare: that's not the point. the point is that the programmer's intention matters 16:38:48 fe[nl]ix, but the API requires the intent to be known early 16:39:00 earlier than the programmer may be able to know himself 16:39:57 vasa [n=vasa@86.57.195.246] has joined #lisp 16:41:44 eaumontab [n=abeaumon@97.pool85-49-127.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 16:41:55 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:42:46 Fare: please show me a use case 16:43:18 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 16:44:56 uroboros [n=mjf@r9fk84.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 16:44:56 -!- netaustin_ [n=austinsm@c-68-53-173-151.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:45:04 -!- uroboros [n=mjf@r9fk84.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:49 -!- Jabberwo_ [n=jens@dslb-082-083-066-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:40 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@97.pool85-49-127.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:46:46 netaustin [n=austinsm@c-68-53-173-151.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:09 tcr, no, I was not here, but I read email. 16:53:36 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:10 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 16:56:55 elurin [n=user@85.99.69.218] has joined #lisp 16:57:54 gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-6-233-10.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:58 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:01:01 -!- gonzojive [n=red@adsl-75-6-233-10.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:05:18 LostMonarch [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:05:36 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: of the following pathname components and features, which would you want to keep, and which eliminate? 17:05:37 <_8david> HOST, DEVICE, DIRECTORY (as a list), NAME, TYPE (separate from type), VERSION, use of globbing (i.e. non-native character escaping rules), logical pathnames 17:08:44 <_8david> I think HOST and DEVICE need to be unified. NAME and TYPE must not be split. VERSION is bogus and needs to go completely. Globbing is a disaster; characters should correspond exactly to what the OS does. Forget about logical pathnames. And while DIRECTORY may well be *stored* separately from NAME, the definition of MERGE-PATHNAME is stupid, instead you'd want concatenation that actually works as if you had concatenated 17:08:44 <_8david> slash-separated strings. 17:08:58 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:07 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 17:09:09 <_8david> The resulting PATHNAME object would make sense, but differ from a namestrings only in form, not in substance. 17:11:40 <_8david> (Plus: throw out TRUENAME, and add directory mapping that works and doesn't imply symlink resolution. Add an explicit readlink function instead. But these are obvious, I guess.) 17:14:00 Sounds terrible. 17:14:55 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:15:11 Just add a posix host. 17:16:02 The differentiation between host and device is important, although the names may be poorly chosen. 17:16:14 -!- eaumontab [n=abeaumon@97.pool85-49-127.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:36 The host essentially tells you what kind of path it is, and the device tells you where it is rooted. 17:17:05 You can see something analogous in http://a.com 17:18:04 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:18:18 <_8david> No. That's what host meant on a Lisp machine, but not on any computer that matters. 17:18:21 malu__ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb356d.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 17:18:41 It's what it means in a pathname. 17:19:22 Look toward uris rather than slash delimited byte strings -- they are a better fit. 17:19:24 <_8david> Sorry, didn't meant to discuss this with you. I just wanted to know fe[nl]ix's plans. 17:19:46 The real problems come from trying to use logical hosts to access the host system's files. 17:20:15 If you can avoid doing that most of these issues end up being due to not using namestrings where appropriate. 17:24:28 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp071.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 17:26:06 patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:37 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:29:56 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 17:35:21 user___ [n=user@p5492447D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:54 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb356d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:35:56 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 17:37:00 _8david: I'd eliminate type, version and globbing, keep device(for windows) and use host for logical pathnames 17:37:42 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@c-68-53-173-151.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:38:31 mmonix [n=chatzill@adsl-69-230-98-43.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:25 You'd also want host and device for uri based pathnames. 17:39:38 I'm not sure I'd want that 17:40:58 <_8david> fe[nl]ix: thanks for explaining. That makes sense to me. 17:40:58 <_8david> One detail: Would you map UNC syntax \\computer\folder to the device "\\computer\folder" or host "computer" and device "folder"? 17:41:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:19 Zhivago: the rules for resolving ".." in URIs are slightly different from those of a unix FS, because you have symlinks 17:41:30 <_8david> well, "\\\\computer\\folder" actually 17:41:39 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:50 maybe they could be unified, but I'm not sure. I haven't studied this in detail 17:42:25 There's nothing wrong with different rules for different hosts ... 17:42:28 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 17:43:18 I'd map \\\\compute\\ to host UNC, device compute 17:43:58 netaustin_ [n=austinsm@c-68-53-172-178.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:36 hmm, I don't know, maybe it could work 17:47:08 btw, did Genera and/or LMI have different namespaces for files and directories ? 17:47:28 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:47:30 -!- antoinevg [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:16 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:56 if yes, the choice of #p"foo" being different from #p"foo/" would make sense 17:51:53 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 17:53:05 <_8david> what does "The source of the original MIT Lisp Machine operating system has been open sourced." refer to on the wikipedia page for Genera? 17:53:21 didn't MIT find some tapes a couple of years back? 17:53:31 *_8david* [citation needed] 17:53:58 I remember it happening <- there's your citation 17:54:29 also, says google 17:54:58 <_8david> thanks 17:55:15 Beeet [n=stathis@ppp154-85.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:56:26 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.223.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:03:19 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:26 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@76.249.191.143] has joined #lisp 18:07:40 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:07:47 is there a Bill Lewis "omniscient debugger" out there for CL? 18:10:02 -!- japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has quit [] 18:10:28 gh7d395pi69wd_ [n=asdf@d75-157-207-144.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:46 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 18:11:00 What book would you suggest for a beginner? 18:11:12 Graham's ACL. 18:11:25 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.223.189] has joined #lisp 18:11:59 <_8david> The book suggested by caoliver isn't all bad, but paints an incomplete picture of some important Common Lisp features (like the object system). 18:12:05 <_8david> minion: pcl 18:12:07 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:12:19 <_8david> minion: paip 18:12:21 paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 18:13:12 Agree on PAIP which I'm starting myself. I share Graham's disdain for loop though. 18:13:23 Seible seems to love loop. 18:13:35 caoliver: why do you have a problem with loop? 18:13:42 [and good evening everyone] 18:13:55 beach: loop isn't lispy enough is the general comment (as I've heard) 18:13:58 pretty much everyone has a problem with loop 18:14:01 It looks like a bunch of COBOL stuck in the middle on one's lisp. 18:14:02 [and hello beach] 18:14:08 madnificent: I didn't ask you. 18:14:21 (keywords like collect only having meaning at toplevel, lack of portable extensibility) 18:14:34 I assumed it to be a general question 18:14:37 i use loop generally since i don't want to depend on iterate everywhere 18:14:38 caoliver: what is your problem with COBOL? 18:14:51 disdain away; I much prefer useful and imperfect to perfectly useless. 18:15:00 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 18:15:01 I just finished to docs for Amsterdam's Iterate package which seems a tad more attractive. 18:15:30 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has left #lisp 18:15:32 Written or read COBOL much? 18:15:33 I have some tapes of Genera laying around 18:15:45 *beach* is very tired of discussions like that, so won't pursue the argument. 18:15:52 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 18:15:56 Hi 18:16:06 hello MrSpec 18:16:16 I come to CL from Scheme; that might explain my revulsion. 18:16:30 caoliver: that would explain a lot of things, yes. 18:16:41 *beach* vanishes again in order to do more useful stuff, and to ultimately get some sleep. 18:16:47 Good plan! 18:17:45 I have a CD of Genera 8.3 lying around here somewhere, but the XL1200 I got it with is hosed beyond reason. 18:18:01 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:18:45 hey, general question, guys: in order to integrate CLOS with lisp's type system, CLOS essentially defines a bunch of built-in-classes that correspond to those types, correct? Thus if you want to integrate something like, say, a prototype system, the system would essentially have to define a prototype for every single instance of one of those types or classes? 18:19:11 sykopomp: you don't have to have prototypes all the way down. 18:19:23 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:19:36 pkhuong: what if you want to define a method on one of those prototypes (within the prototype system)? 18:19:43 that's the main problem 18:20:22 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:29 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:21:10 have you ever had a practical reason to do so? Would you be happy pulling a java with integer-the-system-class and integer-the-prototype? 18:21:54 slate-style multimethods on prototypes are not possible unless all arguments to the method definition can have methods defined on them. 18:23:10 I don't know of any other type of prototype multimethod system that -would- work if some of its arguments weren't somehow included in the party. 18:23:26 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:31 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD3A39D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:25:29 rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-52-93.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:25:55 weirdo: I have no problem with LOOP 18:26:55 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 18:28:49 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:28:52 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:30:11 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EDCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:31 is there a Bill Lewis "omniscient debugger" out there for CL? I was thinking that Lisp probably had this before so are there any debuggers like it? 18:31:57 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:10 lisa` [n=user@dslb-084-056-244-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:50 The only thing I've seen in regards to Bil Lewis is that Google talk. I don't know of anything else. Would certainly like to see that sort of thing for SBCL though. 18:33:41 DeusExPikachu: I don't think there is 18:33:53 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:33:57 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:34:50 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4699A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 18:35:28 Theres also TOD, another java debugger with the same thing 18:35:44 DeusExPikachu: and you asked that question twice. That is not necessary. 18:36:02 sorry new to IRC stuff 18:36:06 minion: please tell DeusExPikachu about logs 18:36:06 DeusExPikachu: have a look at logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 18:36:39 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@ppp154-85.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:37:16 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.227.105] has quit ["<@hex> DON'T LET THE TERRORISTS WIN! CHECK FOR ALASKA EVERY TIME YOU GO OUT."] 18:37:58 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:38:53 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:38:58 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:42:07 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 18:43:21 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:43:23 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:47:16 is it google site: searchable? 18:48:24 Can't find anything 18:49:06 eevar [n=snuffpup@225.89-10-30.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:50:40 NCW [n=chatzill@nickweinhold.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:53:27 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.207] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:53:53 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:53:55 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:55:01 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 18:56:46 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 18:58:16 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:58:53 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:58:57 kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:59:13 uroboros [n=mjf@r9fk84.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 18:59:17 -!- vasa [n=vasa@86.57.195.246] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:36 well if it doesn't exist, might be an interesting project for the summer to port it 18:59:39 -!- uroboros [n=mjf@r9fk84.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 19:00:31 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 19:01:26 ice_four [n=ice_four@host81-129-85-153.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:53 -!- kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:03:56 kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:03:59 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-52-93.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:33 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:06:30 -!- kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:06:32 kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:06:42 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:08:09 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-86-105.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:08:53 -!- kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:08:55 kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:10:51 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-35-80.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:46 -!- kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:11:48 kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:13:53 -!- kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:13:55 kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:03 -!- kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:05 kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:20:11 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@76.249.191.143] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:20:31 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:20:59 clausewitz [n=th@0x535b95eb.kjnxx11.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:21:04 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk84.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 19:22:11 -!- kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:22:13 kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:26:55 -!- netaustin_ [n=austinsm@c-68-53-172-178.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:27:09 srwences [n=srwences@c-68-84-129-84.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:27 -!- kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:28:53 kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:29:31 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 19:32:43 -!- kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:32:46 kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:32:47 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 19:35:02 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:35:58 evening. I'm looking at target-format.lisp in SBCL (src/code), but I don't understand how scale-exponent can work. The same code was taken for ABCL where it doesn't work (for certain cases) 19:36:19 the code does (expt 10.0e0 ) 19:36:40 but if is the exponent of a double-float, this doesn't work on ABCL. 19:36:58 [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.1] has joined #lisp 19:37:03 quite correctly, because *read-default-float-format* is bound to 'single-float at compile-time. 19:37:24 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:37:33 however, in SBCL, I can't find that this *isn't* true for SBCL at compile time. 19:37:54 (expt 10.0e0 300) fails in the REPL though. 19:38:17 so, obviously, something changes the r-d-f-f binding in SBCL. But where? 19:38:20 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 19:40:07 ehu: the eval-when just before scale-exponent's definition? 19:41:02 oh. wow. 19:41:07 wonder when that was added. 19:41:11 completely missed it. 19:41:12 thanks! 19:42:33 -!- lisa` [n=user@dslb-084-056-244-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:43:56 -!- gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 19:53:32 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 19:53:49 Kathrin-25^away- [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 19:54:42 -!- kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A6A2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:41 -!- mmonix [n=chatzill@adsl-69-230-98-43.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 2.0.0.20/2008121709]"] 19:57:46 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:58:23 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 20:00:08 -!- krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:03:36 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-237-96.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 20:06:27 krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has joined #lisp 20:06:43 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-103-68.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:18 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:20 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:35 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 20:10:31 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has left #lisp 20:11:27 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:12:42 etate [n=malune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:13:19 hello i have a problem regarding macros and how efficient they seem to make my code 20:15:10 when I benchmark using the time macro, the function which creates a million vectors using the function vector to create the vector, it is efficient. when I use a macro to create the vector it is much more efficient, why does this happen? 20:15:19 does time ignore macros or? 20:15:22 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:15:32 cooldude127 [n=user@adsl-232-65-104.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:55 try to (declaim (inline your-function)) 20:15:58 etate: probably. 20:16:01 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:30 etate: some implementation may have TIME compile the form before timing it. Macros are usually expanded during compilation. 20:16:47 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:15 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:36 -!- oboenbob` [n=user@dslb-088-068-025-104.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:19:07 pjb: ahh, i'm using SBCL... so time compiles this (defmacro v3-add (a b) `#((+ (vx ,a) (vx ,b)) (+ (vy ,a) (vy ,b)) (+ (vz ,a) (vz ,b)))) for every iteration of the loop? 20:19:52 -!- krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:13 this macro btw, is MUCH faster than this function (according to time): (defun v3-add (a b) (vector (+ (vx a) (vx b)) (+ (vy a) (vy b)) (+ (vz a) (vz b)))) 20:21:29 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:22:13 its not an interesting example, but i'm trying to find out why and could use some help figuring it out 20:23:01 and does that macro work? 20:23:21 yeah 20:23:33 i think so 20:23:33 :D 20:23:46 does it produce the same result as a function? 20:23:51 <_3b> inlining or using a macro might allow better type inference, hard to tell if that is the case there though without seeing the whole test 20:24:36 im testing 20:24:40 sec 20:24:51 #((+ 1 2) (+ 2 3)) will not produce #(3 5) 20:25:20 <_3b> could also let the compiler skip the work completely more easily, if you ignore the results 20:26:11 i suggest you to change in the macro `#(...) to `(vector ...) 20:27:08 <_3b> macro does look rather brokeh though, as stassats` suggests 20:27:21 yeah its broken 20:27:44 i did the change to `(vector and commad the args testing again 20:28:18 it doesn't do any computations, changing to what i said will do, but it's better just to declaim the function inline 20:28:24 now the function is slightly faster :D 20:28:51 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-58-237.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:07 Jabberwo_ [n=jens@dslb-082-083-066-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:20 that may be because you evaluate your arguments several times 20:29:46 or not 20:30:11 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:31:38 yeah, they are exactly the same efficiency now 20:31:47 with the macro fixed 20:31:48 ypsa [n=ypsa@r9dj117.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:31:52 and inline function 20:32:52 though the macro can be slower since it evaluates each argument 3 times 20:32:59 <_3b> are you using a fixed type for the arrays? 20:33:40 like (v4-add (some-slow-function 10) (some-slow-function 30)) can be slower with macro 20:33:50 -!- clausewitz [n=th@0x535b95eb.kjnxx11.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [No route to host] 20:33:55 bjork_ [n=bjork@ip72-204-40-138.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:58 -!- bjork_ [n=bjork@ip72-204-40-138.fv.ks.cox.net] has left #lisp 20:34:08 with your macro, not with macros in general 20:34:22 <_3b> evaluating macro args multiple times can pretty easily be wrong, in addition to slow :) 20:34:39 <_3b> (v4-add (get-next-vector) (get-next-vector)) for example 20:34:50 why does it evaluate 3 times 20:35:01 <_3b> macroexpand it and see 20:35:10 etate: Read Practical Common Lisp's chapter about macros 20:36:13 it only evaluates once in the macroexpansion i'm using 20:36:14 so, with this problem there is no point in using macro, except if you are dealing with sufficiently stupid compiler 20:36:45 can you access ASM somehow? 20:36:51 through lisp 20:36:55 rather than C 20:37:05 (macroexpand-1 '(v3-add (slow 1) (slow 2))) count SLOW 20:37:15 etate: You can in several implementations 20:37:31 tcr: i'm looking for one on unix which has high performance and can do inline asm 20:37:36 <_3b> stassats`: there can be a point to using macros for that, i think i ran into inlining limits in sbcl with a similar application :) 20:37:56 <_3b> (only evaluating things once is still important though) 20:38:23 there is sb-ext:*inline-expansion-limit* 20:38:59 strassats`: I just tried that and it still just evaluates once 20:39:04 <_3b> yeah, i might have modified that, don't remember what i finally decided 20:39:54 stassats` even 20:39:55 etate: then you tried it wrong 20:41:11 or you changed your macro 20:41:28 oh yeah i see what you mean now 20:41:30 etate: SBCL and CMUCL can to some extent. It requires some chunk of sbcl-hacking-fu, though. 20:41:33 ouch 20:41:45 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:49 Doesn't require -that much- sbcl-hacking-fu. 20:41:51 tcr: what does "to some extent" mean? 20:42:56 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:43:07 etate: What you do is put a function call where you want your ASM to go, then explain to the compiler how to inline-expand the function into ASM. 20:43:29 etate: I don't think you can inline asm in the way you can in GCC. You can, however, ... what nyef said 20:43:43 explain to the compiler? 20:44:04 as in (sb-ext:asm-mode :on) :)) 20:44:56 As in sb-c:defknown folowed by sb-vm:define-vop. 20:45:17 etate: Look into src/compiler/x86/cell.lisp in your sbcl source checkout 20:45:38 vop that sounds scary 20:45:46 -!- Kathrin-25^away- [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:46:30 etate: Corman Lisp is said to have a nice LAP. It's Windows only, though. 20:46:40 can you use VOPs to create asm programs, or do you have to program in a VOP to generate ASM 20:47:04 and is generating VOP ASM any different than normal asm? 20:47:16 This is where we have to ask what you're really trying to acomplish. 20:47:25 -!- fisxoj_ is now known as fisxoj 20:47:25 tcr: yeah it looks nice, but i'm on linux :) 20:47:35 nyef: i'm just curious to be honest 20:48:27 nyef: if i can make ASM from within lisp that would be nice 20:48:54 nyef: to say make use of SIMD 20:48:56 Well, there's a difference between outputting ASM and inlining ASM. 20:49:40 nyef: what is the difference? 20:49:54 nyef: in C the inline ASM looks the same as output almost 20:50:07 is it limited in some way? 20:50:19 Outputting ASM from C is typically done via printf(), at least when I do it. 20:50:41 Which is a -completely different- mechanism than, say, GCCs extended asm() forms. 20:50:51 <_death> minion: tell etate about sb-simd 20:50:52 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``sb-simd''. 20:51:03 njsg [n=njsg@bl9-136-115.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:51:09 <_death> sigh.. http://common-lisp.net/project/sb-simd/ 20:51:22 yeah, but can you do extended asm() which does the same thing as normal outputted asm 20:51:44 in all of its capabilities 20:51:58 is the instruction set of inline asm the same, basically, or is it virtual 20:52:16 (generating asm later, maybe) 20:52:17 minion: paste 20356? 20:52:17 Paste number 20356: "Does this look right for a defknown and VOP?" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/20356 20:52:32 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 20:52:36 Here's a simple example, with the caveat that I don't remember if it compiles or not. 20:52:58 btw does sbcl not come with sb-simd ? 20:53:14 (i saw the sb-simd link but apparently you have to build sbcl with it?) 20:53:52 (And the further caveat that, ah, I wouldn't use this sort of an interface these days, I'd define idt-register and %set-idt-register and a defsetf instead. 20:54:41 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-67-146.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 20:54:51 so the VOP is a way of generating asm or using the VM to generate asm? 20:55:11 nyef: the instructions look peculiar to me :) 20:55:19 inst? 20:55:34 inst is a macro that emits an instruction. 20:55:53 emits where? 20:56:02 output or something else? 20:56:18 emits it into the "current segment". 20:57:26 Which, really, unless you're planning on doing serious compiler hacking or put together something like my hack to spit out a Win32 executable, you are unlikely to need to deal with. 20:57:30 chris2_ [n=chris@ppp-88-217-67-146.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:47 i'd like to get into serious compiler hacking actually 20:57:54 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-121.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:57:59 its just hard to understand SBCL because its quite large 20:58:05 and complex 20:58:15 in my mind at present 20:58:16 etate: There's http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-x86-asm/ and Movitz contains an assembler, too. 20:58:59 tcr: nice 20:59:12 SBCL is complex for two reasons. One of them is the interaction of a number of not-so-complex bits. 20:59:23 The other is the interaction of a few extremely-complex bits. 21:00:01 bits as in parts or as in octets ? 21:00:08 Pieces. 21:00:37 so the not so complex bits presumably are the parts which have been added on, after the compiler worked right 21:00:41 like the standard library etc 21:01:13 the GC can't be that complex 21:01:18 *nyef* shudders. 21:01:22 The GC can be that complex. 21:01:22 heh 21:01:27 lol 21:01:35 it could be simpler...but it definitely is that complex 21:01:38 i thought it was the simplest part of a compiler 21:01:49 the gc could also be more complex 21:01:52 aggieben_ [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:04 <_3b> yeah, gc has lots of room for complexity :) 21:02:06 also, the standard library can be fairly complex 21:02:11 I was looking at the GC recently thinking "how much work would be involved in rewriting this to allow a discontiguous heap"? 21:02:11 see: PCL 21:02:16 aren't you supposed to keep the GC simple since its so critical? 21:02:19 Yeah, PCL is one of the big scary bits. 21:02:36 etate: No, you're supposed to keep it fast and reasonably bug-free. That doesn't require simple. 21:02:37 <_3b> etate: critical also tends to mean it needs to be fast though 21:02:55 how do you create an auto-increment slot in an elephant pclass? 21:02:59 -!- aggieben_ is now known as aggieben 21:03:22 so the GC is one complex part because it has to have aggressive optimization? 21:03:30 I've noticed that PCL doesn't like people compiling calls to SLOT-VALUE for a constant slot name that has yet to be defined for any classes. 21:03:31 actually performing GC is not terribly complex...but the allocation interface and making sure GC gets invoked at the right time, that's complex 21:03:53 didn't david moon come up with a good real time gc strategy 21:04:08 i can't remember the details exactly anymore, wikipedia rocks :) 21:04:27 etate: real time doesn't mean high performance. 21:04:34 <_3b> lots of people have come up with good strategies... good implementations is what matters though :) 21:04:42 Real time is also hard to guarantee in the presence of paging. 21:04:52 *aggieben* perks up 21:05:08 music to my uh...eyes....to see someone actually understanding real-time 21:05:19 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has joined #lisp 21:05:20 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-67-146.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:05:40 aggieben: Payroll processing is a real-time task. If it takes longer than a week to do a week's payroll, you're screwed. 21:05:42 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:05:56 nyef: nah, just pay monthly 21:05:59 I just spend the last 3 years as an engineer in a defense contractor surrounded by people running around saying "well, it has to be real-time". So annoying. 21:06:09 nyef: exactly 21:06:20 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:06:31 all the people I'm thinking of really just meant deterministic scheduling + keep up with some physical process 21:06:32 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:41 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:06:45 that's just HPC. Not real-time. 21:07:01 i just mean, that it runs without adding too much slowdown to the program until the program ends 21:07:46 but GC in SBCL is supposed to be "real time" right? 21:08:21 no elephant users? 21:08:31 etate: No, it absolutely is not. 21:08:33 etate: not at all. 21:09:20 but it runs without interrupting a process or it does interrupt it but for a very minute amount of time? 21:10:00 It interrupts all of the lisp threads running for the duration of the GC, or permanently if the GC dies. 21:10:03 it's not concurrent at all either, and pauses can probably be arbitrarily long (depending on the OS and paging performances). 21:10:55 isn't that really bad? 21:10:59 terrible 21:11:14 in fact, it's the SBCL GC's fault that Lisp is dying 21:11:15 sometime it takes sbcl weeks to finish a gc 21:11:16 so SBCLs GC is terrible? 21:11:24 lol 21:11:34 -!- cooldude127 [n=user@adsl-232-65-104.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:43 and it can't be fixed? 21:11:44 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:57 <_death> you can be the one to fix it! 21:12:25 Did I read on sbcl-devel recently that _8david had some patches which might allow for non-contiguous heap spaces? 21:13:53 nyef: yeah, has had for quite a while too; I think he brought them up to date a couple months ago, so it might not be too stale. 21:14:19 Hrm. Are they not ready for mainline for some reason? 21:15:02 -!- malu__ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb356d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:15:15 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:33 it gets billed as a solution to running out of heap due to the conservatism + generational gc issues. I'm not really convinced that a dynamically growing heap is the right solution for that (rather than actually fixing the gc) 21:17:48 Well, the GC does need fixing. 21:18:11 yes, but this is not a fix 21:18:17 But I'm more concerned about the fact that there's a DLL that gets mapped some 64 megs into my dynamic space on win32. 21:18:41 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:19:30 there's a very nice bit in the patch that moves one of read-only / static spaces into the binary 21:19:50 which would help with something wanting to map into the same place as those 21:20:01 I'm not entirely convinced that the read-only space should exist, tbh. 21:20:17 and for the dynamic space there's the relocation patch 21:20:38 Alternately, I'm not convinced that src/runtime/$(target)-assem.S should exist. 21:21:12 The relocation patch doesn't help if there are too many allocations scattered about. 21:21:30 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:21:39 you really can't find 500MB of contiguous address space? 21:21:46 That I don't know. 21:21:52 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 21:22:18 But it's more likely to happen the longer we leave it. 21:22:40 ejs1 [n=eugen@92.49.236.160] has joined #lisp 21:22:53 iirc target-assem was the reason why the other of the two spaces couldn't be moved into the binary 21:23:21 Seriously? Heh. 21:23:31 some references to $NIL which would get very confused if the space didn't start at a constant location, but would only be determined at link time 21:23:33 Oh, right, it contains the two tramps. 21:23:57 I'm sure that's workaroundable 21:24:00 with enough linker-fu 21:24:11 surely? 21:24:21 And I have a hack somewhere for putting the tramps elsewhere. Just required tweaking genesis a bit. 21:24:34 bah, why am I writing paragraphs on text stemming when there are google employees in the channel 21:25:15 hmm... these references to $NIL look mostly useless anyway 21:25:27 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@93.163.43.22] has joined #lisp 21:25:31 For that matter, isn't the main content of read-only space assembly-routines? Honestly, throw an array or code-object header on them and stick 'em in static space. 21:25:33 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:25:34 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:26:23 do code segments get moved to the read-only space on PURIFY / s-l-a-d? 21:26:35 Any references from the rest of the runtime to anything in $foo-assem.S can be replaced by a pointer... 21:26:36 only on cheneygc 21:26:43 krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has joined #lisp 21:26:52 -!- schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27:05 but yeah, on x86oids the read-only space is mostly vestigial 21:27:14 thats another thing, how is static space different from dynamic space? 21:27:38 etate: Stuff in static space can never die, and is never relocated. 21:27:38 static space is static, and dynamic space is dynamic 21:27:43 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-30-206.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:48 it's a technical term, you don't need to understand it 21:27:56 nyef: so like C memory allocation for static space? 21:28:16 -!- aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has left #lisp 21:28:21 nyef: but dynamic space as in malloc instead of stack? 21:28:31 Umm... No. 21:29:03 nyef: so both spaces are in the heap? 21:29:10 Yes, both are heap spaces. 21:29:24 nyef: and there is a static heap, which contains..? constants etc ? 21:29:37 etc. Very definately etc. 21:30:28 nyef: and the dynamic heap contains runtime objects or ? 21:30:40 is there documentation on this? 21:31:16 Umm... The src/compiler/x86-64/c-call.lisp says "XXX The return handling probably doesn't conform to the ABI" in one place, and "The ABI specifies that signed short/int's are returned as 32-bit values." in another. 21:31:32 not to speak of, apart from code, possibly the internals wiki, and (unlikely) the internals manual. 21:31:35 I can believe the former, but I can't find mention of the latter in my local copy of ABI draft 0.99. 21:31:36 the code is your friend 21:32:10 the first comment is probably by danb, the second one by me 21:32:49 the code is your friend, i don't know him very well 21:32:50 :D 21:32:59 learn 21:33:05 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:33:11 Okay, but where in the ABI spec does it say that signed integers of 32-bits or less are passed in 32-bit registers? 21:33:12 trying... brain... expansion... mechanism... 21:33:23 gosh, what a lot of sbcl hackers around tonight 21:33:52 mostly "ex-" sbcl hackers :-/ 21:33:59 :-( 21:34:05 maybe we should have a party in December 21:34:10 "10 years of SBCL" 21:34:22 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:34:29 how long have you guys been hacking sbcl 21:34:39 to get to the level where you can modify it as you like 21:34:49 I think ohloh thinks I've put in 20 man-years 21:35:00 (not actually true) 21:35:04 lol 21:35:12 Oh, wow. Ten years of SBCL? That's... pretty amazing. 21:35:53 also, we don't have enough southern-hemisphere hackers 21:36:08 souther hemisphere? 21:36:13 when the nuclear armageddon comes and the radiation knocks out all the northern-hemisphere sbcl activity, you free lisp guys are going to be stuffed 21:36:15 southern* 21:36:19 maybe hackers prefer water spinning our way 21:36:20 http://www.ohloh.net/p/sbcl 21:36:28 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:31 does the UK count as southern hemisphere? 21:36:34 nyef: can't find it either, but I'm pretty sure it's true 21:36:40 etate: below the equator. 21:36:46 etate: being way over the equator, i doubt it 21:36:47 fly a few sbcl hackers to mars before it is too late 21:37:09 there you go, 73 person-months of code development 21:37:14 njsg: i suck at geography 21:37:26 Quoting oholoh: "Decreasing year-over-year development activity" 21:37:28 started by some guy 21:37:40 what was his name? 21:37:43 ;-) 21:37:52 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:54 lispm, tcr, Krystof, are you coming to ILC09? 21:38:03 jsnell, same q 21:38:09 no 21:38:15 maybe 21:38:35 *sykopomp* might go if he finds a way to fund the trip. It's not really broke-person-friendly. 21:38:45 Fare: no 21:38:45 *Fare* is trying to get a far away speaker for his Lisp Meeting in March. 21:38:49 etate: so do I, the fact I know UK certainly won't hide my inability to locate some countries 21:38:53 Fare: are there lisp babes? 21:39:15 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:17 etate: a few, but the demand swamps the offer. 21:39:41 I'd like to see some status update beyond the paper deadline extension last year on the ilc site before committing to the trip :-) 21:39:48 njsg: yeah, but southern hemisphere was where the ambiguity lay for me 21:40:02 jsnell, I'll mail dlw and gls about that... 21:40:05 I probably wouldn't have anythign to give a talk about 21:40:40 an SBCL tutorial? 21:40:47 ... What on earth is a "Kudo Rank"? 21:41:06 dunno, but "CVS pserver" on the mcclim project has lots of kudo 21:41:14 haha 21:41:37 What lisp features must be defined in order to have macros/macro expansion? 21:41:45 Krystof: btw why do you think lisp is dying? 21:41:57 Krystof: apart from the bad GC 21:41:59 -!- NCW [n=chatzill@nickweinhold.demon.co.uk] has left #lisp 21:42:01 you need to upgrade your ironymeter 21:42:14 Fare: No, I don't. 21:42:15 I suggest watching several episodes of Fawlty Towers 21:42:42 and whatever you do, don't mention the war 21:42:47 Krystof: I don't like talking ironically about programming, usually 21:42:50 what war? 21:43:03 *tic* is from Barcelona, thus no clue. 21:43:40 Fare: the static type system vs dynamic type system war 21:43:49 *tcr* wonders what the ALU Student or Unwaged Member discount is 21:44:13 ... 3 person-months of code development? Is that all ohloh thinks I did? Bloody hell. 21:44:30 haha 21:44:35 etate: no such war at ILC, I think. 21:44:37 serves you right for doing it all out of tree 21:44:54 oh, and probably I merged your patch 21:44:57 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-35-80.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:44:59 so your work counts as mine 21:45:05 Ah, that might do it. 21:45:05 nyef: I think you want to translate it as lisp-years 21:45:13 s/as/to/ 21:45:23 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["relog"] 21:45:43 in fact, I won on lots of counts, because I think I also merged dan_b's ppc port, dan_b's and jsnell's x86-64 port, and a whole bunch of other whopping codedrops 21:45:49 yay maintenance 21:46:02 And the irony is, I don't even use SBCL/Win32 these days at all. 21:46:16 that's not irony 21:46:21 How is the irony? 21:46:40 (maybe it's ironic that it's not ironic. two-step thinking?) 21:46:51 it's just galling, surely :_) 21:47:07 SBCL's name is IRONy 21:47:10 Krystof, do you have an opinion on the debate wrt writing a new somewhat-os-dependent, compiler-independent, file/path library for CL, by basically (0) avoiding cl:pathname, (1) offering direct access to syscalls, (2) building a few abstractions on top of that. 21:47:10 -!- krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:47:45 z0d, IRONy, enriched with carbon, and adjuncted with finance 21:48:00 krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has joined #lisp 21:48:27 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:48:28 -!- krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:30 I think that fe[nl]ix is right to continue asking you for use cases 21:48:46 other than that, my opinion is that I have suffered enough at the hands of pathnames 21:48:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 21:49:05 the most damning thing about cl pathnames is that people complain about them 21:49:09 what about implementation of find, tar, rsync, a backup system, a file browser, a make system, etc. 21:49:21 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp071.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:49:28 I think that it is possible to make choices in the CL pathname design space to actually be neat and useful, but that those choices tend to be counterintuitive 21:49:39 "all physical namestrings begin with :" 21:49:42 I've never heard anyone hate the java, python, perl, etc pathname handling 21:50:03 :name "foo" :type "bar" is canonized to :name "foo.bar" :type :invisible-unreplaceable-token 21:50:06 krimpet [i=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has joined #lisp 21:50:09 and so on 21:50:17 Krystof, also, these choices would be non-portable, which sucks if one wants to not be tied to one CL implementation 21:50:19 jsnell, because there mostly isn't one? 21:50:35 unless you basically shadow CL:OPEN and suches early on. 21:50:39 Fare: not if you actually replaced the cl:pathname implementation with your portable library 21:50:58 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:50:58 however, as I say, I've suffered enough by trying to implement them sanely once 21:51:22 what's the point? 21:51:27 suffering? 21:51:31 ... What on earth is with this bug #309132, "on x86 operand size prefix is not recognized". 21:51:40 suffering brings you nearer to God! 21:52:00 (so say some self-flogging monks) 21:52:01 pkhuong: my original point was to implement URIs as pathnames. I'm sure it would have worked, given time I no longer have 21:52:05 nyef: by the disassembler? 21:52:17 Presumably. But I can see the code for it. 21:52:50 Fare: we already have tar...bug reports welcome 21:53:04 Krystof, where would you fit the ?q=foo&bar=baz part of a URL in a pathname? 21:53:33 froydnj, right, I should look at your source code and see 21:53:34 in the query slot 21:53:55 single-inheritance is a marvellous thing 21:53:58 is there a VOP manual or do you guys just look at how its implemented? 21:54:34 froydnj, is there a darcs or git repo? 21:54:46 etate: It's sortof a combination of how it's implemented, how it's used, oral history, and the few artifacts left lying around from the ancients. 21:54:47 I go by the comments above the definition of define-vop and nyef's document on lifetimes. 21:55:00 Krystof, can one inherit from a class in CL: ? 21:55:21 if you're the implementor? Sure 21:55:33 right. 21:55:38 mrSpec [n=Win@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 21:55:41 where are the artifacts? :D 21:55:42 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-88-217-86-59.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 21:55:46 alternatively: if you have a convenient public domain body of source code, and consultants to help you? Sure 21:55:49 oh wait 21:56:05 etate: Mostly in the EncyCMUCLopedia, although there are one or two others. 21:56:10 http://www.method-combination.net/lisp/ -- access forbidden 21:57:00 the appropriate .tgz is linked off cliki somewhere 21:57:04 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:57:20 I have been too lazy to put up a git/mercurial repo 21:57:44 Lifetimes was interesting to figure out, as was building the obvious verification tool afterwards. 21:59:11 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:00:06 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@244.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:00:17 Though, actually... I'm not sure defining the disassembler at the same time as the assembler really buys us anything. 22:00:32 Cronos [n=a@5ace2fce.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:54 nyef: re: that x86-64 ABI issue, I still can't find chapter and verse, but at least gcc assigns short / int return values to eax, so the sign-extension is needed 22:01:45 jsnell: Joy. And by traffic on sbcl-devel, it sounds like it occasionally assigns shorts to ax. 22:02:13 that was x86-64? 22:03:03 "2.6.26-1-amd64" 22:03:32 Must be the linux kernel version. 22:04:00 Anyway, yeah, x86-64. 22:05:24 I can certainly see how one infers sign extension from 3.2.3 in the x86-64 abi 22:06:19 it just says that the first (integer) return value goes to %rax 22:06:35 Yeah, it talks about mapping values to registers and memory, but it always refers to the 64-bit registers for all integer values. 22:06:51 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:07:16 I assume the "The size of each argument gets rounded up to eight bytes" means sign-extension; the same logic also appears to apply to return values 22:07:20 And at a certain point it doesn't matter how close we conform to the ABI, it matters how well we support what we end up with in the field. 22:08:36 Wasn't there something recently about junk in the high half of a 32-bit register in some win32 cases? 22:08:43 (Or maybe some x86 cases.) 22:08:59 nyef: the report was for win32, right. 22:09:37 froydnj: it's not really obvious to me that that's what rounding up the size means 22:10:16 especially since gcc doesn't do that :-) 22:10:36 Yeah, not obvious to me either, since it could easily mean allocating more space but not initializing it. 22:12:12 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 22:19:52 -!- user___ [n=user@p5492447D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:22:07 -!- etate [n=malune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:22:47 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:24:55 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:07 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:07 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 22:31:52 schme_ [n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:32:33 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 22:33:05 fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.127.12] has joined #lisp 22:33:18 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-155-192-40.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:19 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BA11.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:33 -!- ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:51 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:40:12 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:20 I remember once finding some all-in-one, simple to install package bundling Aquamacs with Common Music for OS X, but I can't seem to locate it right now, does anyone remember what it was called? 22:44:20 robewald [n=user@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:06 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178018076.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:40 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:43 -!- archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:08 bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:32 -!- bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:54 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.223.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:54:02 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:55:04 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@93.163.43.22] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:58:31 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 22:59:52 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:01:12 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@92.49.236.160] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:01:19 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 23:01:44 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:07:02 -!- cooldude` [n=user@lawn-128-61-118-203.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:12 mornin' 23:10:47 Hello schme_. 23:11:10 where is now 'morning'? 23:11:30 sweden. 23:11:58 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:12:11 hmm, it's dark here, midnight, germany 23:12:19 00:11 in the morning in the CET. 23:12:31 00-06 = morning. We all know that :) 23:12:41 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:12:58 I thought that was the "WTF am I doing up this late"ning? 23:13:02 Oh. 23:13:05 Nah I just got up. 23:13:05 any midnight sun? 23:13:17 here morning starts at 10:00 23:13:22 Hmm.. 23:13:23 ;-) 23:13:31 Here we have "förmiddag" from 06:00 - 12:00 23:13:36 -!- robewald [n=user@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:39 I think winter is not favourable to midnight sun 23:13:41 or is it? 23:13:49 geography here we go 23:14:21 and 12:00 - 18:00 being "eftermiddag" and then 18:00-24:00 is "evening". thenit starts over. 23:14:28 *schme_* shrughs:) 23:16:23 Beeet [n=stathis@ppp154-85.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:16:46 I read that German Morgen is from 6-10 23:17:29 How strange. 23:17:35 What do people say to each other before that? 23:18:24 Nacht 23:18:53 "What are you doing up so early ?" maybe 23:19:08 it's 2am here, and it's called night here too 23:19:20 How strange. 23:19:39 So you get up in the morning.. and you say "good night" :) 23:19:42 craaazy 23:20:00 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@97.pool85-49-127.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:20:01 *Quadrescence* handcuffs schme_ to a monolithic Common Lisp REPL sitting in the middle of the #lisp room. 23:20:25 hahahah 23:20:37 archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:29 There is a REPL in the middle of the room. There are no doors. There is a window on the left. Command> 23:21:49 (ext:quit) 23:22:05 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:22:21 heheh. 23:22:25 There is no exit. Command> 23:22:46 (jump :through 'window) 23:22:47 (make-list (expt 2 99999)) 23:22:52 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:22:58 let's blow heap 23:23:04 -!- Jabberwo_ [n=jens@dslb-082-083-066-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:08 stassats`: not fun, try (expt 10 (expt 10 100)) 23:23:15 that will surely blow something 23:23:47 -!- ice_four [n=ice_four@host81-129-85-153.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 23:24:06 -!- Cronos [n=a@5ace2fce.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 23:24:30 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:30 clhs subtypep 23:26:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subtpp.htm 23:28:03 here is the madness. Ihave been thinking. 23:28:29 You get up at say 3. Head off to the gym.. I can't imagine one *not* saying "good MORNING" to the other guys and gals. :P 23:28:35 Now I abandon this quest. 23:29:04 <_3b> morning starts when you get up :p 23:29:51 <_3b> lasts until around noon, or until you are fully awake if you get up after noon 23:30:02 that's so egocentric 23:31:14 <_3b> :) 23:32:13 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 23:32:14 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:33:19 -!- rootard [n=rootard@tajinc.broker.freenet6.net] has left #lisp 23:33:42 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-155-192-40.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:44 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@ppp-88-217-67-146.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:34:07 ice_four [n=ice_four@host81-129-85-153.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:36 chris2_ [n=chris@ppp-88-217-67-146.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 23:37:46 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-237-96.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 23:38:19 bobrown` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:31 -!- bobrown` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:28 mjmcevoy [n=user@pool-71-121-99-41.sangtx.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:54 So what is new inlisp world? 23:45:40 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 23:45:40 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:48:38 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:53:55 -!- Fufie [n=Frog@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:54:32 -!- mrSpec [n=Win@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:55:02 mrSpec [n=Win@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 23:55:19 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:55:57 -!- clows [n=clows@cpe90-146-210-193.liwest.at] has quit [] 23:56:26 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 23:58:59 -!- bohanlon` is now known as bohanlon 23:59:18 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp