00:00:32 brewski [n=wbruschi@cpe-74-75-38-198.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:32 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk10.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:07:31 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk10.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 00:08:01 -!- davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:08:35 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:54 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:12:02 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:12:17 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:13:37 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.163.184] has left #lisp 00:14:06 -!- brewski [n=wbruschi@cpe-74-75-38-198.maine.res.rr.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:15:39 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-43-107.ucr.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:24:36 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has left #lisp 00:25:47 matley [n=matley@83.225.1.61] has joined #lisp 00:28:09 -!- elurin [n=user@85.104.214.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:28:19 -!- clausewitz [n=th@0x535b95eb.kjnxx11.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:29:31 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-058-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:33:01 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-051-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:13 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@97.pool85-49-127.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:35:35 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@97.pool85-49-127.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 00:42:14 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:22 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D4B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:43:32 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:45:41 p_l: separate processes seems like it would be very expensive unless your devices seldom had to synchronize (or weren't running off a common clock to begin with) 00:47:09 hefner: klh10 used this to implement add-on hw 00:47:15 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:47:22 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 00:47:24 i.e. the stuff that ran on one board was in one process 00:47:37 *hefner* is accustomed to thinking of machines that had non-trivial add-on hardware :) 00:47:44 is not, rather 00:48:29 well, it was emulating PDP-10 00:48:55 mostly facetiously, I did wonder how well it would work to do my sound, video, and CPU in separate threads 00:50:13 -!- maodun [n=stopgo@c-67-180-49-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:51:10 (or how poorly) 00:51:31 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:51:49 well, depends on the kind of hw you want to emulate 00:52:36 -!- knightblader [n=da465415@monroe.cs.ucf.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 00:53:15 hdon [n=donny@174-146-134-148.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:54:26 beach` [n=user@58.186.166.238] has joined #lisp 00:54:33 hi all. is there a lisp interpreter that doesn't throw an error on undefined functions, but instead simply doesn't evaluate the function? that is to say, for some undefined function F, the code (F 1 2) would just return (F 1 2) rather than an error 00:55:42 hdon: why don't you handle the condition and have it ignore undefined function errors? That's what the condition system is for. 00:56:27 hdon: It doesn't seem like a good idea to pretend that the code works when it doesn't. 00:56:43 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.166.200] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:56:45 -!- beach` is now known as beach 00:57:05 yeah, sounds like a fun semantics when debugging misbehavior... :) 00:57:45 please don't misunderstand: my target application is very unconventinoal 00:57:51 martian [n=philip@Z8e1f.z.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:58:01 anyhow i found an option in drscheme to "expand not evaluate" functions, that sounds like it might be it 00:58:23 hdon: this channel isn't for scheme. Go to #scheme for that. 00:58:39 sorry 00:58:43 -!- hdon [n=donny@174-146-134-148.pools.spcsdns.net] has left #lisp 00:58:43 no problem :) 00:59:00 *sykopomp* hopes he didn't come off too nasty. 01:02:18 i've a question concerning deftype. But if I set the element type for an array to this type (cmucl) i get "the variable FIXNUM is unbound." 01:02:20 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:03:46 the deftype was: (DEFTYPE EXTENDED-FIXNUM () 01:03:46 `(OR ,FIXNUM (MEMBER ,NULL ,NA ,INFINITY ,-INFINITY))) 01:04:17 the array instantiation was simply: (make-array 1 :element-type 'extended-fixnum) 01:06:51 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp103-195.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:14:46 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:14:55 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 01:15:28 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-58-237.man.east.verizon.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 01:16:01 *martian* waves desparately hands to get heard 01:17:34 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.1.61] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:48 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:14 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:44 -!- martian [n=philip@Z8e1f.z.pppool.de] has quit ["CU"] 01:22:52 !! 01:22:55 get back here martian 01:23:52 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 01:25:56 drdo2 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 01:26:07 -!- iwannalog [n=IWannaLo@ivr94-1-82-67-244-5.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:20 -!- drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:27:31 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:01 but that's retarder 01:30:05 oh, sorry 01:30:09 i mean, pointless 01:30:24 EXTENDED-FIXNUM couldn't be boxed 01:30:29 uh 01:30:30 unboxed 01:30:38 weirdo: he/she left. 01:30:38 i really need to sleep right nao. you get the picture 01:30:59 i know... and i need to sleep nao since i don't make any sense at all 01:31:29 good night, weirdo :) 01:31:37 thanks, bye :) 01:33:44 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:52 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:36 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:21 -!- drdo2 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:26 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 01:44:54 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:56:42 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has joined #lisp 02:01:03 elurin [n=user@85.104.214.8] has joined #lisp 02:09:44 jli [n=jli@adsl-074-229-201-181.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:42 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:23 chris2_ [n=chris@p5B168269.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:12:03 reduce is essentially like the "foldl" function, right? with :from-end t making it foldr? 02:13:23 -!- abend [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit ["Quitting..."] 02:13:54 ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:16:32 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:17:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:43 jli: Depends on what FOLDL and FOLDR are ? 02:20:32 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:21:28 schme, they aren't Lisp functions. I believe they're functions in Haskell and Erlang, and other functional languages 02:22:30 jli: Yes it is something like erlang's foldl. 02:23:34 drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:25:40 oh ya and with the foldr being the :frem-ond 02:26:12 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B3E0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:46 okay, neat. 02:26:53 thanks 02:28:08 antoinevg_ [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has joined #lisp 02:30:45 -!- antoinevg [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:32:05 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:33:18 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:41 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:44 abend [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:08 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.62.239] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:35:16 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.66.250] has joined #lisp 02:35:30 what's up with Kaz vs. Harrop on c.l.l? they married? 02:35:43 Thumper_: was it you who was controling linuxsampler via lisp? 02:36:04 egn: negative 02:36:18 Thumper_: k. my bad 02:39:06 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@p5B168269.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:39:43 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:42:22 drewc: !!! 02:46:18 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:46:41 *schme* googles linuxsampler 02:47:33 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:47:44 Hey that looks good. I need to bookmark me some of that. 02:47:52 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:48:08 yeah, it seems pretty cool, drewc said he was "controlling it via lisp" which sounded interesting 02:48:17 and I want some details 02:48:39 Hmmm.. Yes, I'd love some details on that too. 02:48:54 I imagine latency issues :) 02:49:27 hm, yeah dunno 02:49:27 But I am just guessing.. it seems other stuff used to control stuff factors bits out to C/C++ to avoid madness. 02:50:00 It looks very nice though. I totally need to check this out. 02:50:19 def 02:50:48 I'm trying to be able to randomize the displacement of samples in some sort of "song" structure (like the rest of the programming/music world) 02:51:22 Hmmm.. not quite following you there :) 02:52:23 like, say I've got samples a, b, c, d. I could say for beats 1 through 8, choose from a, b, c, d randomly -> music 02:53:12 ok. 02:53:18 that really is the problem though. 02:53:36 ? 02:53:41 It seems, to me atleast, a bitch to do that in just good ol' lisp. 02:53:54 'cause maybe you are busy GC-ing, and you get mad latency. 02:54:11 yeah, for sure. I was thinking of popping out a .midi file 02:54:18 and then just using that and not worrying about latency 02:54:21 oh ok. 02:54:31 not sure yet 02:54:34 common music 02:54:41 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:54:44 benny` [n=benny@i577A06F1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:54:48 though it is scheme. 02:54:52 yeah 02:55:11 I looked into it, I couldn't find very many docs 02:55:14 or you hook up with one of the old versions that actually is lisp, but lacks the real timeish stuff :) 02:55:18 oh ok. 02:55:36 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:55:38 real time stuff would be bad ass... 02:55:39 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:44 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0221.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:55:53 I'll see what drewc has to say 02:56:01 But generating a midi file isn't too much of a hassle anyway :) 02:56:16 Yaaa. 02:56:21 *schme* is waiting for the RT lisp. 02:56:23 have you done it? or are you just speculating 02:56:36 so I can hook the bastard up with sbcl. 02:57:02 I haven't generated midi files in lisp, no. But I have generated a lot of midi files in C :) 02:57:28 have you? maybe you could help me, I found this "midi file writing" library for CL 02:57:30 with literally 0 docs 02:57:43 emailed the devs, seems to be abandonded 02:57:53 do you have a simple C example somewhere? 02:58:11 eeeer. 02:58:15 heh 02:58:34 No, I do not have such a thing. With *have* generated I meant like 10 years ago :) 02:58:40 ah 02:58:45 but the specs are not so complicated. 02:58:48 alright 02:58:57 Hmm.. 02:59:00 I should look into that. 02:59:07 That's a good idea for a lisp library anyway. 02:59:17 http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/isms/lisp/midi/ is what I was looking at 02:59:56 June '07. I guess that's not terribly old 03:00:40 *schme* looks 03:00:51 mogunus [n=marco@12.157.84.6] has joined #lisp 03:01:06 Hello. So, I've been asked for a table-ish comparison of common lisp and other programming languages. 03:01:15 Does that sort of thing exist anywhere? 03:02:09 Hmmm.. no idea there, mogunus 03:03:00 egn: Personally I think I will go with common music and explore that 'til I figure out how they do the RT stuff so I can port it for midi and jack sbcl goodness :) 03:03:25 I never quite understood language comparision. :S 03:03:45 I think the request is totally irrational. 03:03:48 schme: do they do RT stuff? 03:03:49 mogunus: That would be a very large table. And would mostly contain uninteresting stuff. 03:04:23 egn: Yes. It does. But all that stuff is factored out into C++, to keep it rt-ish :) 03:04:34 ah :/ 03:06:05 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 03:06:08 mogunus: I can imagine entries such as "Standard function for reducing over a list accepts a :from-end keyword parameter" Lisp: yes, Scheme: N.A. C: N.A. ... 03:06:18 heehee 03:06:24 just give them the hyperspec 03:06:38 with little add ons to each section 03:06:46 egn: It is my main beef with lisps at the moment, the audiowork issues :) 03:07:07 schme: I have said for years that we need a real-time GC. 03:07:19 schme: I think I know how to write one, but I don't have the time. 03:07:31 beach: I seem to remember you nudging me towards that just some day ago. 03:07:42 mogunus: ...what are you doing a table comparison for? :| 03:08:03 sykopomp, the guys who wanted me to build them a web app decided that they don't want it in lisp 03:08:11 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-4d78d9728fbc6925] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:08:28 mogunus: -after- you wrote the whole thing? 03:08:29 sykopomp, and then they decided that they might want it in lisp if I give them an exhaustive comparion of lisp and "every other major computer programming language" 03:08:35 beach: I tried googling real time GC to see how one would acquire the skills to implement it.. did not find anything good at all. I would appreciate any pointers at what to look for, to see if I can break sbcl real bad :) 03:08:39 sykopomp, after I wrote a limited prototype 03:08:52 sykopomp, which they *really liked* 03:08:52 mogunus: were you using cl-who? 03:09:05 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:09:09 schme: start by reading http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0471941484/ref=s9sdps_c2_14_at1-rfc_g1_si1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0CGNF3W33RD883PJZ2FR&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463383371&pf_rd_i=507846 03:09:14 sykopomp, and then I explained that it was in lisp when I talked to their UI person (css, frontend design, etc) 03:09:16 every othe major language. lovely mogunus :) 03:09:20 mogunus: If I were you, I'd point them in the direction of one of PG's essays, probably the one where he talks about his experience with viaweb 03:09:29 egn, yes, I was. it was fun times. I <3 cl-who 03:09:37 mogunus: PG might be a devil-horned heathen, but his essays are nice marketing. 03:09:39 mogunus: nice, yeah I'm just getting into it 03:09:42 sykopomp, HAH. That is exactly what I was thinking. Let the evangelist do it for me. 03:09:48 slava: Hey slava! I will try to copy paste those 3 lines of url :) 03:09:54 schme: Plus, it might be necessary to change the Lisp system, in case it uses things like conservative stack scanning. 03:10:10 beach: Well.. what fun that sounds like :) 03:10:33 seems I need to reduce my sleeping by a few hours / day. 03:10:38 mogunus: Other than that, I would use Peter Norvig's list of 'things I like about lisp' 03:10:51 sykopomp, ooo, good call 03:10:56 schme: incremental mark-copy collection: http://www.cs.umass.edu/~emery/pubs/04-15.pdf 03:11:25 schme: incremental compaction: # 03:11:25 # 03:11:27 oops sorry 03:11:34 schme: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1134023 03:11:39 mogunus: I think a table kind of misses a lot of good points, and tables tend to try to act objective, when all they're really doing is adjusting things in the presenter's favor 03:11:41 asch.. they don't have 'em at the bookstore where I normally order books :( 03:11:52 (as in the example of Microsoft's little anti-Red Hat campaign) 03:11:53 schme: parallel mark-copy: http://research.sun.com/jtech/pubs/04-g1-paper-ismm.pdf 03:11:59 schme: that should keep you busy for a year or so :-) 03:12:23 lovely. 03:12:28 I need something to do at work anyway. 03:12:29 hehehe 03:12:31 once you've implemented a concurrent/parallel gc, you can start worrying about making it real time 03:12:51 right, near-real-time is probably good enough. 03:13:03 schme: oh, how could I forget: http://domino.research.ibm.com/comm/research_projects.nsf/pages/metronome.metronomegc.html 03:13:03 Well of course. real timeish is good enough. 03:13:10 -!- benny` is now known as benny 03:13:11 I will not get real time running on top of linux anyway. 03:13:14 sykopomp, sigh. tell me about it. 03:13:23 schme: sadly this type of stuff is hard to find with google unless you know what to google for :-) 03:13:23 mogunus: http://norvig.com/Lisp-retro.html Here's the list of things 03:13:28 sykopomp, it's like they *want* to be marketed to in a disingenuous way 03:13:31 slava: I noticed! 03:13:39 heck, it goes ahead and adds a bit of comparison with java and python 03:14:15 Anyway... 03:14:29 THanks for the help. I'm going to go back to "being at a SF convention" 03:14:34 peace #lisp 03:14:38 mogunus: hold on 03:14:51 sykopomp, ? 03:14:55 mogunus: that page also has a table with language speeds. Just to note that. It might be helpful ;# 03:14:57 ;) 03:14:59 slava: I will just wait for factor to have all this niceness :P 03:15:01 are you at arisia?! 03:15:04 sykopomp, heh. I will. see you! 03:15:08 sykopomp, yes, yes I am 03:15:13 damn you. Stallman's talking there >:( 03:15:19 I know! I saw him! 03:15:22 He's... crazy. 03:15:24 hahaha 03:15:29 alright, I'll see you around. 03:15:30 schme: give me five guys and a million dollars 03:15:31 Have fun :) 03:15:38 I will :-) 03:15:44 schme: i just read the papers, i don't implement this stuff :) 03:15:46 -!- mogunus [n=marco@12.157.84.6] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:15:55 schme: concurrent gc is hard 03:16:18 slava: You can have.. a carrot stick, and two PS1 games ? 03:16:30 I bet. 03:16:45 There is just too many projects. 03:16:47 meh, hate when I'm programming in C# and I hate Emacs commands in Visual Studio 03:16:47 schme: for parallel and concurrent gc, java is the only choice 03:17:00 schme: ghc has been getting some work done in that direction, but it hasn't settled down yet 03:17:12 well who needs parallel and concurrent gc ? :) 03:17:12 Actually, I hate when I'm programming in C#, period. 03:17:27 schme: probably video game companies. Hm. 03:17:34 nihw 03:17:37 Right even. 03:17:39 schme: stuff that needs fast response times, and/or huge heaps 03:17:41 or simulation people, too. 03:17:57 Yeees.. fastish response time is what one needs. 03:18:03 How troublesome. 03:18:11 schme: operating system implementers as well. 03:18:12 so yeah, video games, or on the opposite end of the scale, if you have a 8gb data set and 30 second GC pauses are unacceptable 03:18:38 right. 03:18:53 30 second GC pause seems madness anyway :) 03:18:59 well, time to get this patched into sbcl, then! 03:19:09 Indeed. 03:19:20 sounds like a nice weekend project 03:19:24 (haha) 03:19:40 I have no coffee. 03:19:41 -!- p_l [n=plasek@pp82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:19:49 I have no life. 03:19:52 schme: you could start by changing sbcl to use mark sweep for the old generation 03:19:56 And also, believe it or not, I have other projects ;) 03:19:59 which would reduce memory usage by almost half 03:20:23 slava: How would reduceing memory usage do me any good ? 03:20:45 Just curious here. 03:20:55 schme: not swapping like a mofo would probably be nice. 03:21:03 But I am not swapping. 03:21:07 or, it would let you double heap size for the same amount of ram, leading to less frequent collections 03:21:17 hmmm... 03:21:24 so given a fixed amount of ram, mark-sweep has higher throughput than copying 03:21:27 Well I guess it makes sense either way. 03:22:02 Right ok. 03:22:47 I'm thinking: code gets called, sbcl is busy GC-ing so it is delayed, stuff gets really bad :) 03:22:55 That there idea seems just to reduce the chance. 03:22:59 hmmm. 03:23:41 metronome gc guarantees cpu time to the program but it would be hard to retrofit onto an existing system 03:23:51 IBM's J9 VM has it 03:24:24 I'll just order that there book next month and see what happens. 03:24:31 Ya.. 03:24:38 slava: so metronome gc is about as good as realtime, or am I misunderstanding? 03:24:51 which is why I'm recruiting sykopomp to write me a new CL from scratch. 03:25:08 sykopomp: it is hard real time if the programmer makes some guarantees about allocation rate, otherwise it is "soft" real time (good enough for audio and such) 03:25:24 I won't be getting hard real time on top of linux anyway. 03:25:30 schme: Hah. 03:25:41 As long as I can have my guaranteed 1ms 03:25:48 then I guess I will live. 03:26:07 meh. 1ms sounds good enough for most applications I can think of -- to be completely honest. 03:26:09 hey that actually does make it hard. 03:26:19 hmmm? 03:26:33 I can think of applications where 1ms is not good enough :) 03:26:43 yeah? 03:26:46 sure. 03:26:53 You come to the place I work and see the machines go. 03:26:59 sykopomp: the fancier gc's are only needed in pretty specialized domains 03:27:03 1ms extra will result in shit being totally not usable. 03:27:18 CNC stuffs going on and on 03:27:24 and odd precision stuff. 03:27:30 sykopomp: for typical tasks, even a music player, you can use an incremental gc that doesn't guarantee latency, just collects the heap in chunks 03:27:35 'course there is no GC anywhere near this ;) 03:28:02 slava: I'm thinking for applications like operating systems or something resource-heavy like graphics apps or high-end video games. 03:28:08 music player can stand real crazy latency. 03:28:20 But for audiowork I mean.. it's bad. 03:28:21 yeah, just add a big buffer :-) 03:28:27 I don't really know how fancy a GC you would need for things like that 03:28:27 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:28:31 schme: I think 1ms is not required. 03:28:41 stassats [n=stassats@ppp89-110-62-159.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 03:28:45 My silly internal audiocard is giving me 4ms, and that is very noticeable. 03:28:47 schme: I mean, how far does the sound travel in 1ms. 03:28:55 sykopomp: trading systems are an example where you want low latency 03:29:10 sykopomp: a few ms can make a difference between a sound trading strategy and money lost :-) 03:29:12 beach: Right.. so 2. 4 is not good. 03:29:29 schme: yeah, more like 2. 03:29:34 beach: stuff gets real bad out of synch :) 03:30:07 good point, I guess that's why they write all of those apps in COBOL 03:30:09 ;) 03:30:13 hehehehe. 03:30:26 sykopomp: nah, they use java or .net ;-) 03:30:31 or c++ 03:30:39 :3 03:30:47 CNC controlled welding robot. 1ms delay for on/off can mess stuff up. 03:31:06 Anyway. 03:31:16 I will not have this finished by tomorrow. 03:31:41 schme: I think one can accept an even longer delay than 2ms, as long as all sources are synchronized. 03:31:44 and that linuxsampler looks supernicer :) 03:31:56 beach: That is the problem though. they get out of sync. 03:32:11 schme: that should be possible to handle with a bigger buffer. 03:32:33 a bigger buffer? 03:32:54 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:33:13 schme: I guess I don't understand what gets out of synch and why. 03:33:16 Ok. 03:33:28 Well say you have a midi controller of some sort.. a keyboard perhaps. 03:33:38 OK 03:33:46 and you have a couple of hardware things hooked up to it, and also midi-in on the computer for some soft synth. 03:33:47 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:33:58 now you hit a key, and you want instantish response from all things. 03:34:03 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:34:53 schme: well, as long as the response comes at the same time from all things, you should be OK. 03:35:05 Of course. 03:35:21 But the delay that the computer part brings on.. could just wreak havoc :) 03:35:23 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:35:36 schme: 'cause you can't seriously be saying that if you move the speakers 1m away, things will become unacceptable. 03:35:49 ehhe 03:35:56 schme: sure, if it is different from the rest of the stuff. 03:36:13 stassats [n=stassats@ppp89-110-62-159.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 03:36:19 schme: I see now. Not everything is done by the same computer. 03:36:20 No I mean if you want real timeish stuff to happen. 03:36:47 ya 03:37:06 schme: and even so, you can't possibly say that a distance of more than 1m between two members of a band will make it impossible to play together. 03:37:14 of course not. 03:37:21 and that's already 3ms. 03:37:25 but if you are sequencing stuff.. well you do want it sequenced. 03:37:35 especially if you are actually recording the different channels. 03:37:50 but, yeah, I get the picture. 03:38:00 latency is a big problem generally :) 03:38:04 1ms is certainly a good number to aim for. 03:38:20 (which is why people flee the windows, but that is another story) 03:38:25 yeees. 03:38:41 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:38:52 sadly my onboard audiocard just gets me down to 4ms from something telling it to play booooop to it playing boooop :) 03:38:53 schme: I think we should have a sliding per-thread collector and an incremental global collector. 03:39:12 Ok.. 03:39:18 I have no idea what you said there :) 03:39:35 schme: You just have to read up on GC algorithms I guess. 03:39:44 My knowledge of GC goes about as far as I looked at the cover of that book slava gave me the URL too :) 03:39:50 -o 03:39:54 Yes :) 03:40:07 I need more projects anyway ;) 03:40:26 don't we all 03:41:02 I see haskore and cm both doing somewhat of the same thing for the midi part.. dumping it all out outside itself. It's not so pretty :) 03:41:41 also it is cheating! 03:41:53 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:42:49 schme: Shouldn't you be asleep, by the way? 03:42:57 aaahh yees. 03:43:18 It is such a difficult week. I have gotten to bed at 4ish every day, and waking up at 13ish 03:43:19 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:43:26 and now I have laundry time in 6hrs 03:43:33 Those are unusual hours for you. 03:43:45 Yes. 03:43:56 Does the laundry room have wifi? 03:44:00 hahahaha 03:44:04 No. 03:44:25 It would if it were here in HCM. There is free wifi everywhere. 03:44:36 Where is HCM? 03:44:46 Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam. 03:44:47 repnop_ [n=repnop@adsl-69-225-5-16.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:08 Oh neat. 03:45:26 I'd rather have free press than free wifi :P 03:45:31 We have a japanese guy coming here in two days, I hope he does not expect free wifi everywhere :) 03:45:45 slava: do you really think you have that? 03:45:53 uh oh. 03:45:57 *schme* gets popcorn. 03:46:14 *beach* will not continue that discussion. 03:46:25 beach: What are you doing over there anyway? 03:46:39 schme: I teach a couple of courses here per year. 03:46:51 schme: Our masters program has a branch here. 03:47:11 That sounds totally nice :) 03:47:31 Yeah, it is great to get out of Europe when it is cold and dark. 03:48:14 When I get back (tomorrow), spring will be around the corner in Bordeaux. 03:49:21 Aaah.. just getting out of Europe sounds nice enough, I didn't even realise it must be summer time there :) 03:49:27 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:49:44 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:49:46 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:49:46 -!- drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:55 -2C last time I checked here. hrrrm 03:49:55 schme: well, it is the dry season. But the max temperature here is always around 32 or so. 03:50:07 almost the same then. 03:50:14 yeah. 03:50:33 Unlike Bordeaux, where it is more and more common with 40°C in the summer :( 03:50:47 yikes 03:51:00 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:51:01 ... So we had AC installed in the house. 03:51:06 -!- repnop [n=repnop@adsl-69-225-8-29.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:52:21 This means I need caffeine. 03:52:26 Anyway, I am considering the possiblity of subcontracting some Lisp hacking to my Vietnamese students or graduates. The monthly salary is around 80 EUR so I could actually pay a few full-time people with my own money. 03:52:53 !! 03:53:18 That sounds like a good thing :) 03:53:44 80 euro.. and people can live a month off of that? 03:53:48 Yeah. It would have the additional advantage of giving this country more competence in Lisp technology. 03:53:57 Excellent. 03:54:04 schme: sure, no problem. A good meal is about 0.5 EUR. 03:54:09 Wow. 03:54:21 I think I need to mark that place down as a potential vacation spot. 03:54:39 schme: You should. People are extremely nice to foreigners too. 03:55:03 :) 03:55:14 I just need to look up a good bike route. 03:55:15 heh 03:55:39 scottsd [n=schwepps@adsl-75-20-207-74.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:46 Ok. Now I am exceeding my IRC limit. I am cutting down and my timer is beeping. 03:56:02 schme: talk to you later. 03:56:05 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:56:11 ya. have a good whatever time it is there :) 03:56:48 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.166.238] has left #lisp 03:59:21 -!- slava [n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 04:02:54 chrols [n=chrols@h-60-151.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 04:03:26 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:19 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:08:18 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has joined #lisp 04:13:55 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.140.158] has joined #lisp 04:23:47 bpalmer [n=user@unaffiliated/bpalmer] has joined #lisp 04:25:22 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:28:17 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@97.pool85-49-127.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 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07:28:56 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.200.247] has joined #lisp 07:28:58 drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 07:29:16 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:29:51 It is going very well. Reading some :) 07:32:39 tessier__ [n=treed@mail.copilotconsulting.com] has joined #lisp 07:41:18 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:42:42 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 07:44:30 -!- getoo [n=user@66-224-157-26.atgi.net] has left #lisp 07:45:16 mrSpec [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 07:45:17 Hey 07:46:23 Fufie [n=Frog@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:35 hey hey 07:47:18 goodnight #lisp 07:50:28 hei 07:51:16 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:51:35 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 07:51:49 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:53:23 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.193.97] has joined #lisp 07:54:20 hello plutonas ! 07:54:28 hey schme 07:54:41 How goes? 07:54:41 how are you? 07:54:59 how is the weather up there? Am coming on monday... 07:55:08 It is freezing :) 07:55:41 :( 07:55:47 will need to get used again 07:55:54 hahah yes :) 07:56:57 It would seem I need to move myself to the other machine 07:57:24 hm, how come? 07:57:59 I need to access the audio stuffs :) 07:58:14 ouh 07:58:34 It does not work over ssh :) 07:59:01 plutonas: We had +8C yesterday, now it is down to -2 :) 07:59:18 -2, oh my god 07:59:28 +8C is closer to what i have had here 07:59:35 usually it was about 14 :P 07:59:38 do you have snow? 08:00:09 nooo. 08:00:14 We had snow one day. 08:00:24 atleast half a centimeter. 08:01:06 haha 08:01:45 We usually do not get much snow here :) 08:02:18 i know, there was some before i went back for christmass though, had lets say 5cm a couple of times 08:02:29 anyways 08:03:25 -!- tessier__ [n=treed@mail.copilotconsulting.com] has quit ["leaving"] 08:03:36 tessier__ [n=treed@mail.copilotconsulting.com] has joined #lisp 08:04:31 how strange my audio stopped working. 08:06:59 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:08:54 oh 08:08:55 mute 08:09:35 waterh [n=waterh@114.143.32.31] has joined #lisp 08:27:31 -!- drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:27:55 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:29:23 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 08:31:08 nelson_ [n=nelson@c-69-244-205-199.hsd1.ky.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:08 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:33:12 drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 08:33:29 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:43:08 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:51:00 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:16 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:34 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-29.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:59:55 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:50 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-30-215.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 09:17:24 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.194.112] has joined #lisp 09:19:51 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:25:46 -!- pierre__thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-27-82-248-21-75.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:26:00 pierre__thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-57-82-249-10-56.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:37 vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:37 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 09:37:47 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 09:40:15 -!- Mannerisky [n=Manneris@24-117-137-23.cpe.cableone.net] has left #lisp 09:41:11 Mannerisky [n=Manneris@24-117-137-23.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:42 -!- oklopol [n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:44:06 oklopol [n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 09:49:20 user____ [n=user@p549271A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:55 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 09:50:11 what packages are required for portable aserve on linux with sbcl? 10:01:51 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 10:02:02 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 10:02:56 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp071.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:04:28 I've imported the packages acl-compat and md5 but I get the error 10:04:28 5-aserve-worker: 01/16/09 - 22:26:00 - while processing command "GET /random-number HTTP/1.1" 10:04:28 got error The function REQUEST is undefined. 10:04:32 drdo2 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 10:06:22 -!- drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:35 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.194.112] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:15:40 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #lisp 10:15:58 so i'm reading up on format ... and how that some people love it, some people hate it; i dind't even realize there's an alternative to format ... what's the alternative? 10:16:22 write-char? princ? print? 10:16:30 Depends on what you're doing with format, I guess. 10:19:59 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:20:46 Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:24:11 lispm [n=joswig@e177144203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:28:21 davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:04 seelenquell_, maybe using Hunchentoot would be a better idea these days .. i think most people use that these days (i guess PCL, from 2005, mentions aserve?) 10:31:00 huunchentoot does not work at my system: 10:31:00 can't create directory / 10:31:01 [Condition of type SB-INT:SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR] 10:31:19 under windows the same 10:31:37 do you have a complete backtrace? ( http://paste.lisp.org ) 10:37:31 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:39:30 -!- antoinevg_ [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:39:46 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl141.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGINT received; exit"] 10:40:01 awayekos [n=anekos@pl141.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:40:16 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 10:41:50 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 10:42:13 -!- drdo2 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:44:26 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:44:52 seelenquell_: hmm, very cursory, but meant as helpful indeed: considered clbuild? 10:47:51 what do you mean? 10:50:47 lnostdal: i#m installing a screenshot program and make a screenshot because in eclipse I cant copy the backtrace 10:51:40 ehh :) 10:51:42 seelenquell_: clbuild takes care of package stuff etc.. you can jump right to creating programs. also i can warmly recommend virtualbox.. every recent linux distro has a snapshot program installed by default 10:54:34 hm, that's crazy .. 10:59:00 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:00:08 drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:00:27 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has joined #lisp 11:01:04 md` [n=user@213-151-238-36.icss.sk] has joined #lisp 11:02:32 mqt_ [n=tran@c-66-41-46-222.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:41 -!- mqt_ [n=tran@c-66-41-46-222.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:03:01 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.200.247] has left #lisp 11:09:56 lnostdal: http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/5ekt-6-jpeg.html 11:14:41 drdo2 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:14:50 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18:22 -!- drdo2 is now known as drdo 11:21:56 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:22:15 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 11:23:12 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:24:51 -!- HET3 is now known as HET2 11:27:14 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.166.238] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:59 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:30:22 -!- drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:09 sykopomp: could you link me to the tutorial again? 11:31:32 sykopomp: nvm, I just looked over it in the bookmarks :) 11:34:59 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:37:53 virl [n=virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:38:14 slime is almost enough to pull me over from scheme into lisp 11:38:26 what's the lisp distro of choice for writing real world / enterprise apps 11:38:50 Depends on the real world / enterprise app. 11:38:59 ask me a series of questions 11:39:12 or give me a decision tree / diagram 11:39:17 hi, I'm new to cl/scheme and it interests me, how I can modify the parsing of an lisp expression? 11:40:08 hml: do you want to pay for it? 11:40:28 i'm willingg to pay up to 1k 11:40:30 virl: as in: 'how do I write macros' ? 11:40:33 but ideally free 11:40:50 for a single license that'll let me run on many different servers 11:40:57 1k / each AWS server is not acceptable 11:41:06 hml: in the free camp sbcl is well represented here. I have no experience with payed stuff myself :) 11:42:03 madnificent, nah.. more like "how do I say the parser that it should substitute (), {} or [] to ()" 11:42:25 or are macros able to do that? 11:42:36 See reader-macros. 11:42:45 virl: why in the universe, would you want to replace the briliant sexps syntax, with something that resembles C?! ugh 11:43:09 virl: sorry, you made me feel bad ( Zhivago's comment was for you :) ) 11:43:21 madnificent, why does that resembles C? 11:43:43 hml: payed licences are generally very expensive and (afaik) payed per seat 11:44:53 foo pasted "defstruct example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73750 11:45:28 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:45:52 virl: because substituting {} and [] to the real beauty that is called consistency (being ()), makes me think of that syntax ( go ahead though, it may be interesting to check it out for yourself :) ) 11:46:34 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:47:06 I mean this code snippet for example, how do you understand that without being a lisp beginner? 11:47:51 I get the feeling to structure it 11:47:58 virl: read a lisp book, and understand it then... 11:48:15 virl: you can find examples in cl-syntax-sugar for that - although they are much more complex than what you need 11:48:32 clhs set-syntax-from-char 11:48:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_sy.htm 11:49:58 madnificent, why should reading a lisp book help? it's not that I don't get it, but my aesthetic feelings get hurt by it. 11:50:14 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:50:43 virl: you didn't go to the C++ channel, showed an example of multiple inheritance in C++ and then asked "how can I understand multiple inheritance without knowing what objects are". Generally it is best to learn the language first :) (either that, or I'm not getting how much you know about lisp >> or I'm not grasping your question) 11:50:44 and now I shut up, because that discussion walks into flamewar direction. 11:51:01 virl: nonono, I'm not flaming, and I'm the one giving comments! :P 11:51:38 virl: the non-syntax is an important point of lisp, just like the non-self of buddhism. there's no point in trying to bend the philosophy before fully understanding it... :) 11:51:48 virl: the aestetic feelings of having parenthesis everywhere? 11:52:24 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:52:40 koning_robot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 11:53:15 I know the philosophy of lisp in that point, so far I'm in learning it. 11:54:13 attila_lendvai: altough I support your comment. That is somewhat the argument that scientology seems to give to newcomers. In that sense it might not be a 'good' (for a strange meaning of good) argument. (just bothered me, don't mind me) 11:55:45 virl: then try to suppress your feelings for a while and see whether they change by time or not in a given timeframe. and make sure you have an editor that helps editing a paren delimited tree meanwhile... like emacs and paredit 11:56:20 attila_lendvai, I'm more the vim-guy. 11:56:43 virl: there are loads and loads of concepts in languages, and some languages seem to create a now syntax for each of those problems. Yet the syntax is never clearly bounded (take generics in java, it's clearly added to it in some extra way). By using one self-extensible syntax for all features of the language (including user-defined features) you get a consistent system to work in. I assume that is why most people fall in love with 11:56:44 the parentheses after some time. 11:57:14 virl: well, with vim you miss a lot regarding editing lisp code 11:57:16 attila_lendvai, and really.. I'm not the guy who surpresses my feelings. because I think that this is not a healthy idea. 11:57:47 *for a while* was an important part of my comment 11:57:48 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:57:49 virl: you know how packages work in other languages? like you can nest packages? 11:58:47 It sounds like you are confused about what packages are. 11:59:08 A package is a mapping from string to symbol -- it is a namespace. 11:59:14 madnificent, you mean module systems? structuring code through, say a "namespace"? yes I know that, I'm also implementing something like that. 11:59:18 It is not a module. 11:59:19 Zhivago: *other* languages ;) 11:59:33 chris2 [n=chris@p5B168269.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:41 virl: okay, you can nest those things, right? 11:59:57 madnificent, yes. 12:00:19 virl: now, what they decided was: we need one syntax to nest all packages in, because we don't know how the packages will evolve 12:00:35 virl: they defined one syntax for arbitrary nesting of packages, regardless of their goals 12:01:10 virl: they didn't diclare a new syntax for each level of nesting, right? 12:01:18 *declare 12:01:53 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:02:20 virl: or modules or whatnot that was nestable that you knew of :) 12:03:28 madnificent, ok. 12:03:44 virl: now in lisp they said 'we are not going to define the language' 12:04:09 virl: that means that a user should be able to create completely new things that the original design of the language did not really intend 12:04:32 madnificent, till there you don't tell me something new. 12:04:41 virl: as an example: the way lisp handles classes/objects (it is named CLOS) was completely written in lisp itself 12:05:05 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:05:37 LostMonarch [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:05:41 virl: so, since we don't know anything what will happen, we assumed it to be best to keep a consistent syntax for everything. Allowing is to nest everything arbitrarely (and extend it to unforeseen ways) 12:05:52 s/to un/in un/ 12:07:21 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:07:27 -!- drdo`` is now known as drdo 12:08:18 virl: the basis of lisp contains very functions, there is not much needed to define a language in this way. All else is written in lisp itself within this consistent syntax. 12:09:15 virl: that allso means that if we keep to this consise syntax, that any user can define new concepts that he found usable in the language. Like a way to define variables, or a nice way to assign variables to them. Or perhaps a way to create objects. 12:11:19 virl: this extensibility is not (and can not) be offered when not having a consistent unambiguous syntax (see the way lisp handles packages for more info on that). So not only does the syntax (once grasped) make things increasably easy, it allso allows you to make things transparantly better when you have an idea that might be better than wat is there now. 12:12:01 virl: get the idea? 12:12:16 nothing new to me. 12:12:30 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:30 virl: so, why would you possible want to change the syntax? 12:12:53 the syntax and extensibility are independent features, really. 12:13:32 lucca: albeit true, I think both need to be interweaved to keep consistency. 12:13:43 because it is then more readable to me. and I'm not talking about something like turning lisp into say C or anything. 12:14:28 the syntax is nice, and very convenient, but hardly essential. There have been lisp-like systems using more traditional non-lisp syntaxes, like Dylan. 12:14:41 It really does simplify macros, however. 12:15:13 I'm talking about an extremly simple task. 12:15:14 But it is definitely possible to do everything the lisp macro system does without s-expressions... it's just horrificly ugly. 12:15:18 virl: since code = data it is somewhat hard to create something like that 12:15:29 virl: there is a reason why it hasn't been done, and it wasn't complexity 12:16:03 lucca: yeah, that's what I'm trying to explain here, but it doesn't seem to come trough 12:16:22 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:17:18 virl: if you want to make all of those types of brackets work like (), that isn't so hard to do (reader-macros) 12:17:20 virl: most of the people I know grasp it when they fetch it is consistent. learning that you have a local variable by using (let ((foo "bar"))) is nothing different than learning the syntax in one language is string foo = "bar" and the other requires |foo| ; foo := "bar"; 12:17:25 I'm not talking about dylan 12:17:26 and it's a good learning exercise! 12:17:42 but in the end you probably don't want to do that for real production code. 12:18:13 virl: so I personally suggest that you simply learn it (dislike it if you like) then at the end see whether or not you learned to appreciate them... 12:18:51 madnificent, nah, that's not a good approach in my eyes. I learn what I like. 12:18:54 drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:18:57 -!- drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:19:38 well, have fun then. 12:19:39 *madnificent* goes to dinner as to avoid getting angry by ignorance (couldn't resist) 12:21:31 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:22:32 -!- user____ [n=user@p549271A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 12:23:31 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:23:57 -!- virl [n=virl__@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 12:24:21 matley [n=matley@83.225.179.221] has joined #lisp 12:25:28 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:25:51 japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has joined #lisp 12:29:56 gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:03 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:30:46 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:31:51 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 12:34:42 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:34:43 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:36:43 madnificent: I appreciated your explanation at least - I catch plenty of gruff from my friends about liking lisp 12:36:47 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:51 now perhaps I can give them a better answer 12:37:03 user___ [n=user@p549238B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:20 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.179.221] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:38:34 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:38:59 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:39:01 -!- elurin [n=user@85.104.214.8] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:40:09 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.64] has joined #lisp 12:40:29 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 12:43:09 Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-434478.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:44:28 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:45:07 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:25 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:53:35 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:55:34 pitui [n=pitui@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:09 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:59:30 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-134-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:07 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 13:03:14 -!- vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:03:33 vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:06 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-190.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:09:55 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-30-215.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:45 -!- jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:15:30 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:15:30 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:15:30 -!- sjbach_ [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:15:30 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-0689e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:15:30 -!- bartiosze [i=bartiosz@nintendos.pl] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:15:46 sjbach_ [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:15:46 bartiosze [i=bartiosz@nintendos.pl] has joined #lisp 13:15:46 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 13:15:46 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-0689e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:15:46 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 13:17:58 Mannerisky: when it is actually lisp that you're going to explain and you're talking to open-minded people, I found it to be nicer to construct the lisp-syntax as a way to talk about stuff. (braces being groups, symbols being something defining a concept, macros being the translation between concepts) It doesn't have to be very concise, but in the end they (mostly works wel on philosophers) grasp what is possible and how it makes it a 13:17:58 'freer' language than most others are. Clearly, I whiteboard does wonders when explaining it like that :) 13:18:24 Mannerisky: besides that, I was just going to say that I should've shut up when he asked. I should've known it would result in nothing 13:20:13 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:21:37 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 13:24:16 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:26:46 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:32:35 Mannerisky: your friends... now imagine that we were invited by our former boss to give a talk at our former company about lisp to our former colleagues with the intent that he wants one of them to join us to learn this technology. picture the gruff we got... :) 13:35:03 attila_lendvai: and what country is that company located? ;) 13:36:04 madnificent: not sure how that counts... but it's hungary 13:36:31 attila_lendvai: was a joke, as I am having my exams, and am not liking them :) 13:38:02 ah, exams... kinda pointless, especially if you learn CS at school (except in about 1% of them, which counts as noise) 13:39:30 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:39:48 one should learn math and physics and things like that to refine the thinking, and sociology, psychology, etc to open up the thinking. the rest is just waste of time... and sorry for expressing this opinion in the exam period! :) 13:40:40 I was thinking about what usefull things I've learned this year. And actually, I've gotten no wiser. I am recapitulating some things which I will forget about again in about a year. Some things were new (computer graphics and basic electronics) but I'm not interested whatsoever in them. I feel somewhat dull about it now 13:41:38 attila_lendvai: ah no biggie, as you can see I was somewhat thinking in the same line. Still trying to learn it, if only because my parents like it :) 13:44:21 Arnar [n=arnarb@blackhole.hvergi.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:26 hi all 13:44:38 so.. is this the place for asking silly questions? :) 13:45:02 Arnar: only if you are nice and are willing to take brutal answers! 13:45:05 Arnar: ;) 13:45:16 preparing to teach an intro class on lisp on Monday.. having trouble finding some details with Google 13:45:24 madnificent: absolutely, I like brutal :) 13:45:35 Arnar: its one of most pleasure places on the net actually.. :-) 13:45:41 Arnar: oh, I was expecting someone new heer :) 13:45:51 first off.. if a function returns (aref whatever).. can I not use the value with setf? 13:46:07 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 13:46:10 Arnar: example? (pastie) 13:46:16 hang on 13:46:23 i've been programming since my childhood and got a degree in electrical engineering at some point, mostly due to the expectations of the society/family. but it was mostly a waste of time (except the sciences that we learned and the background knowledge i got about electricity, which is about enough to fix the wiring in the house) 13:46:56 tsk.. no lisp on codepad.org :) 13:47:10 Arnar: paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 13:47:16 minion: paste? 13:47:17 paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 13:47:40 -!- vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:48:08 Arnar pasted "setf with aref" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73754 13:49:14 attila_lendvai: I personally believe a degree is something of a previous age. Yet I also find it incredibly stupid to not believe those who have had a great part of live already. Clearly they must have some knowledge about it... Then I also wonder: who on earth is going to care about my degree when I'm coding in lisp. It aren't going to be the conventional companies, so... (probably need to work on my own in lisp) 13:49:18 btw. I was originally using a 2-dimensional array, but couldn't figure out how to map/reduce it (I wanted to count the occuurrences of true values) 13:49:33 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 13:49:50 minion: the friendly local bot? 13:49:51 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 13:50:05 Arnar: aref does not return a reified place, but the value. setf is basically a macro that operates on the form it sees at the place position, it happens at compile time. your code assumes that the place is alive at runtime... 13:50:18 attila_lendvai: ah, right.. 13:50:25 is it possible to achieve what I was trying to do? 13:50:42 clhs defsetf 13:50:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defset.htm 13:50:47 Arnar: ^ 13:50:50 thanks 13:52:43 Arnar: allso, (setf (elt (env-dirt-vector *env*) 0) T) does something you may want to use 13:53:19 madnificent: ah, thanks 13:53:35 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 13:53:54 I think I will just define a function.. while this is nice, I'm writing code that the students should understand easily 13:54:53 is there a way in the repl to see if a particular name is a function or a macro? 13:54:57 Arnar: do/will they know macros? 13:55:04 madnificent: not for the first class.. 13:55:16 note also that you can write (defun (setf foo) ...) 13:55:30 (setf foo) can be a function name 13:55:38 oh? 13:55:49 #'(setf foo) 13:55:56 (function (setf foo)) 13:56:02 lispm: wouldn't that feel like magic even more? (not trying to imply much here) 13:56:02 returns the setter function 13:56:12 MAGIC! 13:56:16 awesome 13:56:18 minion: chant! 13:56:19 MORE NOT 13:56:37 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:01 (describe 'foo) should give some info about the function or macro 13:57:21 lispm: thx 13:58:37 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 13:59:13 (macro-function 'foo) returns the macro function, if foo is a macro 13:59:18 NIL if not 13:59:27 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-134-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:51 THIS CHANNEL IS WAY TO SOFT TODAY 13:59:57 ;-) 14:00:11 even helpful! 14:02:19 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:02:57 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp071.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:03:20 lispm: go eval yourself! 14:03:42 -!- user___ [n=user@p549238B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:04:32 should I (abort) or (continue)? 14:04:36 lispm: isn't this mostly a helpful channel? most of my questions have been answered here in the past. Going from utterly dull to somewhat dull 14:04:43 lispm: LMAO!!! 14:04:46 maybe I need a (break) 14:05:20 the (ceiling) is coming down 14:06:08 lispm: if (ceiling) is coming down, then you have a borked lisp implementation :P 14:06:25 matley [n=matley@91.80.252.149] has joined #lisp 14:06:37 but I need some (room)! 14:07:11 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:07:27 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:07:42 didn't know 'room 14:07:46 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:57 just some (dribble) 14:09:25 *madnificent* feels stupid now 14:10:05 why that? 14:10:25 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Success] 14:10:25 I didn't know dribble either! 14:10:41 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:10:41 it could come in handy 14:10:42 you can learn Lisp (step) by (step) 14:11:20 if it is too much, get (some) (sleep) 14:11:34 okay, I stop ;-) 14:11:54 lispm: a concise writeup about how to best debug lisp-code could be handy actually. I haven't come across something like that 14:13:37 lispm: I've had enough, but it was interesting to lookup the symbols :D 14:13:37 Lisp Style and Design, Chapter 6, Debugging 14:14:05 unfortunately that book is hard to get 14:14:25 lispm: even google told me that! 14:15:33 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:41 1 copy at amazon.fr for $299 14:17:03 lispm: that is missing food for a month! 14:17:13 clausewitz [n=th@0x535b95eb.kjnxx11.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:17:31 very rare 14:18:14 might be good to have an online version 14:18:18 -!- waterh [n=waterh@114.143.32.31] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:20:30 -!- japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:46 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.193.97] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:24:00 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl141.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:25:19 japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has joined #lisp 14:27:20 awayekos [n=anekos@pl141.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:27:59 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 14:31:12 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 14:31:20 l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 14:31:29 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:32:56 user___ [n=user@p54923977.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:56 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-58-237.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:03 G'morning all. 14:35:18 good ...afternoon 14:35:52 -!- clausewitz [n=th@0x535b95eb.kjnxx11.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:39:32 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 14:39:49 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 14:43:31 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:47:26 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:52 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:48:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:48:26 antoinevg [n=antoine@alonzo.artifactual.org.za] has joined #lisp 14:52:24 cooldude127 [n=user@adsl-232-65-104.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:26 NorthStar [i=email@89.180.132.5] has joined #lisp 14:56:55 beach [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 14:57:00 Good evening. 14:57:10 hello beach 15:00:11 pjb [n=t@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:04:42 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 15:12:12 -!- Fufie [n=Frog@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:12:26 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 15:12:40 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:13:45 vasa [n=vasa@mm-11-86-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 15:14:30 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:47 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 15:18:50 -!- beach [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:26:20 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-24-85.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:03 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:27:21 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.64] has quit ["gone"] 15:27:45 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:33:00 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-190.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:33:19 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:33:30 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:35:58 Fufie [n=Frog@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:37:02 -!- l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:39:49 hello lispers 15:42:01 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 15:42:32 hello kiuma 15:43:13 I'm destroyed :/ 15:43:21 what happened? 15:43:44 it's all the day my baby is crying 15:43:45 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:44:27 kiuma: hey, I don't know nothing about babies :) You're sure she has everything? 15:44:32 kiuma: toys, maybe? 15:45:08 after 17 days ? 15:45:11 :P 15:45:36 ah, just the way they always are then :) 15:45:50 hehe, parents say that it's normal 15:47:18 I'll use this free fornderfull silent hour to read a bit AMOP and where :accessor :reader and writer are created 15:47:37 have fun with that 15:47:52 I think I'm at a good point with che backend part of the cms 15:49:40 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-046-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:27 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:54:03 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:01 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Success] 15:58:26 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-24-85.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 15:59:44 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:49 dlowe [n=user@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:01 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:16 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:03:53 -!- davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:07:36 colton_ [n=colton@ip72-220-44-155.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:48 If I wanted to begin learning and using lisp where should I begin? 16:08:08 minion: pcl 16:08:08 minion: tell colton_ about that dead sexy book 16:08:09 colton_: i don't know what you're referring to 16:08:09 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 16:08:29 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.20] has joined #lisp 16:08:48 colton_: if you have prior programming experience, start with this book 16:09:10 minion: gentle 16:09:11 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 16:09:18 otherwise with this 16:09:22 colton_: what languages do you know now? 16:09:31 Is there a common compiler/interpreter to use? 16:09:39 i like sbcl 16:09:40 c/c++ a little c#. 16:09:58 colton_: pcl it is 16:10:31 Do you guys use emacs? 16:10:33 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.131] has joined #lisp 16:10:35 yes 16:10:48 emacs and slime, the lisp ide 16:10:49 Do you customize it with lisp? 16:11:20 so, you want to learn emacs lisp, not common lisp? 16:11:20 colton_: most of us do (perhaps even everyone), but there are other environments possible (emacs + slime works very very good) 16:12:13 anyway, elisp doesn't worth to learn 16:12:58 I want to learn common lisp, but I imagine they're similar. 16:13:03 colton_: emacs is written in emacs lisp (elisp) , this is about common lisp (which is clearly better, as this channel is about common lisp) 16:13:09 no, they are not 16:13:18 colton_: they're only superficially similar 16:13:20 colton_: cfr java vs javascript 16:13:27 Oh. 16:15:55 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.223.189] has joined #lisp 16:15:58 colton_: so, what do you want to do? adjust your emacs, or learn a briliant language? 16:16:32 That's an interesting way of putting it. I don't know, both? 16:16:50 I would think it would be easier to learn CL first 16:17:20 Can lisp be a system programming language? 16:17:28 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 16:17:28 Does it run as fast as c? 16:17:35 colton_: with some prodding 16:18:00 colton_: are you planning to write an OS? 16:18:53 No, I'm just curious. 16:19:10 I would probably use d for that . . . 16:19:10 Ah, the mythical as fast as c. FWIW, I immensely prefer the tools offered by SBCL when you need to drop down to assembly language to what GCC has. 16:19:50 colton_: is 'average code written in lisp, is faster than average code written in C' good too? 16:19:57 or was that comparison with respect to C++ 16:20:01 I forgot -_- 16:20:35 (or by CMUCL, obviously. IIRC, MCL derivatives are pretty good at that too) 16:21:36 rtoym: I was able to get series working and optimized under sbcl, btw 16:21:52 colton_: don't be affraid of the speed of the language itself, it will not come back to hount you (as that is probably what you wanted to know in the end) 16:23:48 yeah, I've never heard anyone complain about how lisp is nice, but way too slow 16:24:03 clausewitz [n=th@0x535b95eb.kjnxx11.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:24:04 davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:43 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has joined #lisp 16:24:50 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:26:41 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:27:45 -!- colton_ [n=colton@ip72-220-44-155.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:28:36 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:30:39 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:07 -!- matley [n=matley@91.80.252.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:19 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 16:33:47 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.14] has joined #lisp 16:34:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:34:50 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-11-86-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 16:35:35 -!- rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:35:49 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:37:07 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 16:38:21 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:25 -!- davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:42:31 aundro__ [n=aundro@215.159-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 16:42:41 -!- NorthStar [i=email@89.180.132.5] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:42:57 -!- cooldude127 [n=user@adsl-232-65-104.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:43:52 cooldude127 [n=user@adsl-232-65-104.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:55 -!- aundro_ [n=aundro@152.182-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:44:01 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:46:28 -!- triqon [n=henri@hrk.yok.utu.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 16:47:02 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 16:48:44 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:51:04 -!- dlowe [n=user@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:51:23 prxq [n=mommer@Xad3d.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 16:52:22 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 16:54:41 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 16:55:49 rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:58:52 Whoa, I didn't know Gosper was "affiliated" so deeply with lisp. 17:00:33 dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:18 NorthStar [i=email@89.180.200.184] has joined #lisp 17:04:43 matley [n=matley@83.225.129.88] has joined #lisp 17:04:59 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 17:06:55 -!- user___ [n=user@p54923977.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:09:20 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:20 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:12:14 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:20:08 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:22:32 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:29:13 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:00 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:52 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:31:54 -!- clausewitz [n=th@0x535b95eb.kjnxx11.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:34:47 josemanuel [n=josemanu@127.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:34:59 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:39:44 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:42:59 hmm.. where do I find docs for std library functions? 17:43:11 clhs 17:43:13 minion: clhs 17:43:14 clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 17:43:21 ah, thanks 17:43:27 Arnar: the standard documents everything ;) 17:43:28 though, there is no "std library" 17:43:41 mm, ok 17:43:58 e.g. now, I'm looking for a function that might be called replicate 17:44:00 or repeat 17:44:11 what does the function do? 17:44:12 (replicate 3 "abc") -> "abcabcabc" 17:44:18 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.251.0] has joined #lisp 17:44:18 (equal clhs (union language base-library)) 17:44:29 ah 17:44:54 there's nothing like that, but it's pretty easy to write, I'd say. 17:45:13 minion: clhs concatenate 17:45:14 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 17:45:22 Something involving apply concatenate and make-list? 17:45:24 Arnar: use that. 17:45:30 (with-output-to-string (foo) (loop repeat 3 do (princ "abcd" foo))) 17:45:45 yikes 17:46:10 make-array. You know exactly how long the output will be. 17:46:27 (apply #'concatenate 'string (make-list 3 :initial-element "abc")) 17:46:45 Arnar: as you can see, lots of different ways to do it ;p 17:46:54 coming up with ways to do it is easy.. 17:46:54 -!- cooldude127 [n=user@adsl-232-65-104.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:01 I'm just surprised that it isn't predefined 17:47:05 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has joined #lisp 17:47:25 nyef: that's limited to call-arguments-limit 17:47:27 <_3b> is it something you need to do frequently/in many problem domains? 17:47:27 Arnar: yeah, there's a lot of functions that would be useful but weren't predefined. Like Alexandria's IOTa 17:47:29 IOTA* 17:47:32 stassats: ... So? 17:47:45 nyef: it is not general 17:47:59 ... So? 17:48:14 since we don't know what Arnar wants, it may be unsuitable 17:48:25 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:48:47 *sykopomp* loves #'iota 17:48:49 stassats: whaddya mean don't know what I want? 17:48:50 It works for the single use-case given. 17:48:57 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:03 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.251.0] has left #lisp 17:49:31 Arnar: the question is why you're trying to make a string that repeats a single pattern over and over. 17:49:32 Arnar: do you want to do more than 50 repeats, for example 17:49:54 sykopomp: I'm drawing stuff in ascii 17:50:00 stassats: yes, potentially 17:50:12 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:33 I can just as well do (loop (dummy 30) (print1 "+---")) I guess 17:50:37 stassats: Is 50 the lower bound for call-arguments-limit? 17:50:42 prin1 17:50:49 Or did you just pick a random low number? 17:50:52 clhs call-arguments-limit 17:50:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_call_a.htm 17:50:55 nyef: yes 17:51:07 the former 17:51:35 Hrm. 17:52:03 50 is not that much, OTOH it can be plenty 17:52:14 wol [n=wol@c-24-4-220-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:44 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:42 I note that the bound on multiple-values-limit is 20. 18:00:58 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 18:01:45 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.131] has quit ["gone"] 18:01:47 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:01:59 kuwabara pasted "How can I make ECL use integers ?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73765 18:02:05 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.131] has joined #lisp 18:02:49 <_3b> it probably does use integers, do you mean machine words? 18:03:48 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:03:55 <_3b> you could try truncating the result to a fixed number of bits before returning it 18:03:59 _3b: in the doc (http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/ch26s04.html) they say it can produce C code using integers. 18:03:59 lisppaste: not the answer to your question, but you can use (declaim ...) instead of (eval-when ... proclaim..) 18:04:39 _3b: For that to work, you need a certain amount of compiler smarts. I remember when those smarts were added to SBCL. 18:04:43 stassats: thanks, you're right. I was trying to follow ECL documentation which uses this syntax. 18:05:12 <_3b> kuwabara: ah, i missed the function declaration, i guess that is supposed to do the same thing 18:05:15 Umm... And that second proclaim is wrong. 18:05:26 Don't you want to proclaim ftype instead of function? 18:06:22 <_3b> yeah, that looks odd 18:06:23 (ftype (function (fixnum) fixnum) fact) ? 18:06:24 nyef: um... is the doc at the URL I gave also wrong ? Or did I do it differently, introducing an error ? 18:06:25 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:06:38 <_3b> looks odd in the doc too 18:06:47 <_3b> but could be non-standard extension or something? 18:07:59 nyef: do you think optimisation #30 can be checked off? 18:08:09 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 18:08:42 ecl complains about (proclaim '(function fact (fixnum) fixnum)) 18:09:00 stassats: I tryed to replace the 2nd proclaim with (proclaim '(ftype (function (fixnum) fixnum) fact), but it gives the same result. 18:09:12 kuwabara: what result? 18:09:14 that documentation must be old 18:09:17 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.20] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:09:42 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.20] has joined #lisp 18:09:45 pkhuong: I have no idea. 18:09:45 pkhuong: static cl_object L1fact(cl_object V1) instead of static int L1fact(int V1) 18:10:19 kuwabara: there's probably no way to change that. That's part of the calling convention. 18:11:11 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:11:19 there might be another internal entry point, though. 18:11:22 <_3b> kuwabara: did you try the specific example from the docs? 18:11:27 kuwabara: try aso (declaim (optimize speed)) 18:11:56 pkhuong: but the doc shows a case where a function produces int as C argument type 18:12:09 <_3b> isn't that eval-when wrong too? 18:12:10 kuwabara: on an internal entry point. 18:12:18 _3b: it's old school. 18:12:26 _3b: I'm trying the doc example. you're right. 18:16:59 that example in the doc has even unmatched parentheses 18:17:26 stassats: it's matched if you assume the defun to be inside the eval-when. 18:19:08 <_3b> only getting 1 activation record per function call is annoying :( 18:19:22 _3b: the example as is does not generate any code for the tak function, displays that it's in safety=2 mode, and gives a warning about (FIXNUM FIXNUM FIXNUM) not being a symbol. 18:19:49 i'd discard that chapter 18:20:52 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:20:56 do you know a common lisp implementation (other than ECL) which compiles to C code, and uses C native types when enough declarations are provided ? 18:21:29 I don't know of any current lisp impls that compile to C code besides ECL 18:21:38 why do you need that? 18:21:44 That's not to say that one couldn't be built, but... why? 18:22:07 Wait, wait. What about xcl? 18:22:14 gcl 18:22:17 And is wcl no longer in the running? 18:22:27 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 18:22:30 is gcl current? 18:22:44 Sort of. If you run maxima. 18:22:49 There are project where i'd rather use C, but I miss Lisp macros too much. 18:23:23 So... define a sexpr-based surface syntax for C? 18:23:34 RTL? :) 18:23:39 (Or use one of the existing ones.) 18:24:57 kami-` [n=user@p4FD3A39D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:58 -!- nelson_ [n=nelson@c-69-244-205-199.hsd1.ky.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:25:27 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has joined #lisp 18:25:33 Hi, I was wondering if there are any CL graphics libraries/binding that are cross platform (Win/Mac/Linux), work with SBCL, and are currently mantained? 18:25:54 nyef: it's not enough, I wouldn't be able to use the full power of lisp to write my macros: I need to be able to defun and defmacro and have them work at compile time. Or do you know a tool to do it this far ? 18:25:57 <_3b> neomage: define graphics (there is cl-opengl if that fits) 18:25:59 (by graphics, I mean GUI. sorry for the ambiguity) 18:26:29 neomage: wxcl ? 18:27:01 ok. 18:27:33 what about massively importing APIs from say, python or ruby, for places where CL support sucks? 18:27:40 kuwabara: That doesn't sound so difficult so far. 18:27:43 e.g. system access 18:27:43 As near as I can tell, wxcl hasn't been updated in ~2 years ... is that correct? 18:27:51 i'd use mcclim, not that i'm recommending it 18:27:58 i'd love to see a sys module for cl. ;) 18:28:05 neomage: there are several such libraries for scheme, btw 18:28:08 well, and os. 18:28:22 at least one for PLT and one for Gambit 18:28:32 arwed [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:28:40 neomage: ltk, maybe? 18:29:04 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.140.158] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:29:29 McClim and ltk look promising, thanks. I hadn't tried either yet 18:30:20 nyef: it does sound difficult to me. It seems to me the easiest path would be to have a lisp program to convert Lisp to C. Were you thinking about something much simpler ? 18:30:28 Fare: Thanks, I'll keep that in mind for next time. I already have a few thousand lines of SBCL specific code - I'd rather not port just to tack on a gui 18:30:34 <_3b> is TAGBODY the only special form that can do a backwards jump within a function (assuming flet/labels produce separate functions) 18:31:10 neomage: mcclim doesn't currently have backend for windows, you will need to use X server 18:31:33 _3b: block/return from? I'm not sure I understand how GO is different from tail calls. 18:32:22 kuwabara: Yes. Have a toplevel macro, def-c-fun or whatever, that interprets the surface syntax, but also checks to see if each form can be macroexpanded as a normal CL macro as needed. Or, alternately, it's fairly easy to set up a parallel macroexpansion system so as to not interact with any hijinks provided by your host environment. 18:32:23 Ah, didn't realize. That isn't a deal breaker though. I don't mind installing Cygwin/X, since this only has to run on a handful of computers 18:32:39 <_3b> pkhuong: i don't have tail calls, so don't need to worry about those unless i implement local functions with jumps 18:32:59 stassats: Weren't there two or three backends that were being worked on that would work on windows? 18:33:23 nyef: not that i'm aware of 18:33:38 <_3b> pkhuong: i need to cerate a separate function for any nested scope that gets closed over multiple times per function call, wondering how little analysis i can get away with to identify that case 18:33:46 nyef: thanks. 18:34:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 18:34:16 kuwabara: Anyway, the def-c-fun macro then arranges for the C source to be output somehow, and there are some basic options for that, and then you have a minimal system. Evolution towards a more full-featured environment is left as an excersize. 18:34:18 neomage, another way is to have a client/server thingie where the presentation layer is in another language 18:34:34 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:34:36 (even in js running in gecko/webkit) 18:36:13 Fare: True enough. I have a decent amount of experience writing webapps, so that might be the best option. 18:36:35 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-153-213.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 18:36:49 -!- gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:36:54 I think I'm going to go play with ltk to start though. It seems interesting, and I get to learn something new. 18:36:56 Thanks all 18:39:25 is ltk based on the tcl/tk library? I don't think this has a lot of future 18:40:02 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:02 I believe it is. Why do you think it doesn't have a future? (I know nothing about GUI libraries) 18:40:23 Is tcl/tk on its way out? 18:40:26 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:34 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 18:41:28 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:41:45 clausewitz [n=th@0x535b95eb.kjnxx11.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:43:01 not a sexy platform for new developments. web toolkits, kde, maybe gnome, maybe some .net/mono thing, maybe clim, etc. 18:43:18 you want to be where the action is, or you're wasting your energy 18:43:40 pngwen [n=knoppix@bee101.labs.utk.edu] has joined #lisp 18:44:21 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:44:55 Fare: ltk at least seems to work ;) 18:46:56 Fare: I agree with that sentiment. My first thought was to look for a GTK or QT binding, but couldn't find any that were mantained. Since you suggest that tcl/tk is on the way out, mcclim may be the way to go ... I'd rather not make this a webapp (the interface I had in mind doesn't easily translate to html, and I want to learn something new). 18:48:25 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:48:42 <_8david> Tcl/Tk may be on the way out, but Clim never found the way in 18:49:48 re: webapps, did you see kenny tilton's praise of qooxdoo? 18:50:05 clim at least has interesting concepts to learn about 18:50:18 stassats [n=stassats@92-100-133-116.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 18:51:14 whatever floats your boat 18:51:31 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:54 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:52:05 user___ [n=user@p54927024.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:14 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.131] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:19 -!- mjonsson [n=mjonsson@pool-71-175-134-12.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:15 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46B04.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:27 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46A05.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:04:26 drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:43 -!- drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:06:43 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@66.11.161.166] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:29 -!- dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:10:05 -!- neomage [n=anon@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:16:51 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:21:22 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 19:26:32 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@127.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 19:31:43 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:10 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:29 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:41:15 _3b: You can use CATCH, THROW, too. 19:43:51 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.129.88] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:44:14 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-235-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:47 <_3b> tcr: in response to the question about backwards jumps you mean? 19:48:06 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.227.105] has quit ["To err is human, to forgive is against FidoNet policy."] 19:48:10 -!- clausewitz [n=th@0x535b95eb.kjnxx11.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:48:25 yeah 19:48:35 <_3b> can you go backwards with those though? 19:49:46 <_3b> though thinking about it, throw and return-from might make figuring out what a tagbody does more complicated too 19:50:47 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:27 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-134-208.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:20 blitz_ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has joined #lisp 19:55:56 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:57:18 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B168269.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:59:19 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 20:06:13 How can I delete the most recent changeset from history in git? 20:06:38 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:07:38 git revert HEAD 20:07:53 stassats: that doesn't delete it 20:08:06 tcr: git reset HEAD^ 20:08:14 -!- Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-434478.home.otenet.gr] has quit [] 20:08:19 stassats: revert commits the inverse patch 20:08:28 ah, ok 20:08:43 tcr: old head will linger, but it will get reset by gc somewhere in the future, and you should not care about it 20:09:22 revert is better if you pushed that commit somewhere. 20:09:50 the reversion will be explicitly marked in the history then? 20:10:13 yes 20:10:30 Is it "revert; commit; hack; commit", or just "revert; hack; commit" ? 20:10:41 -!- pngwen [n=knoppix@bee101.labs.utk.edu] has quit ["needs coffee"] 20:12:05 "git revert is used to record a new commit to reverse the effect of an earlier commit" 20:12:17 i think the latter then 20:16:52 stassats: but does revert change work tree? If not, it would be revert; checkout; hack; commit 20:17:18 Meh, Git is *awfully* complicated. 20:19:03 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 20:19:43 japhie: it does, just checked 20:21:58 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:07 luckily, you can explore git without destroying the main repository 20:28:33 <_3b> ugh, if i extract a scope into a separate lambda from within a tagbody, GO turns into a non-local exit... though i guess i need to handle that case anyway 20:29:28 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:29:33 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:41 *_3b* wonders how annoying it would be to use the javascript/actionscript scoping rules for closures in a lisp 20:31:06 -!- keramida [n=keramida@adsl145-182.kln.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:31:13 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:15 _3b: Notice that you can only invoke such closures within the dynamic extent of the tagbody 20:31:59 <_3b> tcr: yeah, still needs to be an NLE though, which is more work than a jump 20:32:46 _3b: Does your implementation support tailcalls? 20:33:18 <_3b> not in general, and it doesn't help in this case, since the whole point is that i need a real function call to get a new activation record 20:33:59 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:09 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:34:11 You can translate tagbody to labels if you can optimize tail calls away 20:34:41 <_8david> while I'm working on my SBCL-related experiments, my current thinking is that Scheme would be way better for AVM2 than Common Lisp 20:34:47 <_3b> so for example (loop for i below 10 collect (let ((j i)) (lambda () j))) i need to have the (let j ...) be a separate function call 20:34:56 Beeet [n=stathis@ppp103-195.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:35:14 <_8david> No threads, lots of annoying asynchronous APIs. Only call/cc would make that an attractive environment to program in. 20:37:04 <_3b> _8david: possibly, not sure if continuations would be nicer to implement or not :) 20:37:40 <_8david> well, you certainly can't do low-level stack copying tricks on a VM... 20:37:43 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:01 Depends on the VM, really... 20:38:38 It'd actually be fairly straightforward on the classic ST-80 VM, for example. 20:38:42 <_8david> nyef: in this context, VM == vaguely Java-like, designed for JavaScript 20:38:45 <_3b> yeah, just read about a trick to use VM level exceptions to save the stack though, that might work for avm2 as well 20:39:32 <_8david> (except trailing 10 years behind Java in terms of features...) 20:39:57 <_3b> no idea how fast it would be, but also don't know how common that operation is for scheme code 20:40:40 _3b: Is this the one for continuations in Scheme on .Net, having the exception handlers store all of the live variables in the heap on unwind? 20:41:42 <_3b> nyef: yeah, sounds right 20:43:56 <_3b> wonder if the existing avm2 scheme does call/cc (think it was just an interpreter last i heard though) 20:46:25 <_3b> ah, guess it was as2, but does have continuations 20:49:49 Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 20:51:37 evenin' 20:52:40 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:09 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 20:55:46 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:56:00 <_3b> hmm, how does call/cc normally interact with FFI calls in schemes? 20:57:13 <_3b> seems like scheme->ffi->scheme boundaries would be problematic 20:57:48 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:07 What does sb-kernel::*handler-clusters* give you at the Slime REPL? 20:59:15 Then try to inspect the value 20:59:37 I'm encountering very weird behavior 21:00:38 cons doesn't look the same in inspector 21:02:10 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:03:23 what's printed on the repl? 21:03:26 <_3b> printing seems to modify the list 21:04:30 _3b: good observation, pretty printing does 21:05:23 oh no sorry it doesn't 21:05:27 anyway gtg 21:06:11 doh, sbcl ate all memory after i evaluated several times *handler-clusters* 21:07:05 fisxoj_ [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.9] has joined #lisp 21:08:59 I have a question on eval and evalhook 21:10:04 evalhook is not part of ansi common lisp 21:10:28 if I have read CLTL correctly then evalhook is the core evaluator of a form and can't for that form be bypassed 21:10:29 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.20] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:10:40 oh, what is in ansi lisp then ? 21:11:05 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:11:12 macroexpand-hook is, I believe... 21:11:34 <_8david> _3b: is "Pettyjohn et al. Continuations from Generalized Stack Inspection" the article you're referring to? 21:12:01 <_3b> tcr: wonder if (declare (dynamic-extent *handler-clusters*)) in %handler-bind explains some wierdness? 21:12:17 but if I want to evaluate a list as an expression can call eval on it 21:12:42 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:12:43 but what environment do I get then and can I control that 21:12:46 ? 21:12:52 <_3b> _8david: don't think so, let me see if i can find the place i saw it 21:13:18 rvirding: eval evaluate in the null lexical environment 21:13:23 You get a "null lexical environment", and if you want a different lexical environment you can build a suitable LET form for EVAL to create it. 21:13:37 ah. 21:14:08 (Yes, this would include the possibility of symbol-macros and appropriate flet or labels to do closure-munging or similar.) 21:14:19 but I see globally defined functions? but not fleted ones 21:14:55 Right. 21:15:19 The functions you can see all still have their skins. 21:15:54 what about macros? do I see them or do I expand them myself? 21:16:14 Depends on if they're global or lexical. 21:16:23 Same with symbol-macros. 21:16:27 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-29.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 21:16:46 <_3b> _8david: ah, actually looks like the same thing, just saw it from one of the et al.'s blog instead of the paper itself :) 21:16:59 so I see global variables, functions and macros, but not lexical ones? 21:17:44 Exactiyl. 21:17:46 Err... 21:17:48 Exactly. 21:18:20 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:18:29 But, if you must, you can eval `(macrolet (...) ,original-form), and that will allow you to get a lexical macro definition in place. 21:18:42 Expensive, though. 21:18:45 <_3b> _8david: http://funcall.blogspot.com/2008/09/in-from-generalized-stack-inspection.html specifically i think 21:18:57 but then it's in the data i am evaluating 21:19:30 Yes, it is. 21:19:55 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:02 final question then: so evalhook and applyhook aren't part of ANSI CL 21:20:05 ? 21:20:08 But a macrolet itself has no side effects other than on the lexical environment. 21:20:23 Correct, they are not. 21:20:36 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:22:53 <_3b> though looking closer, possibly that blog post is about not using exception tricks to implement continuations :) 21:23:01 ok, thanks, paul graham says very little about eval in his book 21:23:38 *_3b* wonders how fast exception handling is in avm2 21:29:28 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4853.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 21:29:35 apoo [n=gast@5356040B.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 21:30:36 -!- apoo [n=gast@5356040B.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:30:41 apoo [n=gast@5356040B.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 21:32:50 -!- apoo [n=gast@5356040B.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:32:55 apoo [n=gast@5356040B.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 21:33:37 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 21:34:01 -!- apoo [n=gast@5356040B.cable.casema.nl] has left #lisp 21:34:45 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:34:56 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:35:31 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:37:15 josemanuel [n=josemanu@210.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:39:11 aggieben_ [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:45 <_8david> I don't understand how resuming works with their approach, so I'm probably missing entirely what's actually going on. 21:40:46 <_8david> 21:41:38 -!- Fufie [n=Frog@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:38 davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:25 jkantz_ [n=jkantz@c-66-30-114-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:35 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:46 could someone point me to documentation about how to do conditional evaluation? (e.g., '#-sbcl', etc) 21:46:00 <_3b> clhs #- 21:46:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhr.htm 21:47:00 <_3b> clhs 24.1.2.1 21:47:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/24_aba.htm 21:47:04 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:47:16 _3b: ah, thanks. that was my next question :-) 21:47:53 mek||malloc [n=mek@c-76-118-78-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:00 <_3b> note that that is conditional /reading/ not conditional /evaluation/ 21:48:10 ok 21:48:32 better to start from 24.1.2 21:49:00 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:49:55 fallenz^ [i=Fallen_@c-71-193-112-7.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:57 ooh. didn't know about the *features* variable 21:49:58 what is lisp 21:50:14 my god. 21:50:20 fallenz^: lisp is a programming language 21:50:27 minion: tell fallenz^ about lisp 21:50:28 fallenz^: please look at lisp: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 21:50:36 oh, wrong 21:50:36 its that thing gay guys have i thought 21:50:46 http://www.cliki.net/Lisp 21:50:48 minion 21:51:00 ah 21:51:04 minion tell schme about abortion 21:51:05 It is that time of day, huh? 21:51:33 thats a lot of ingo 21:51:34 info 21:54:22 -!- rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [No route to host] 21:54:39 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:54:59 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 21:57:11 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-236-102.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:00:01 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 22:00:20 *slyrus* thinks its about time he installs clbuild 22:00:54 gentoo has a nice portage overlay for common-lisp. I find I don't need clbuild or asdf-install anymore. 22:01:24 common-lisp-controller? 22:01:36 no 22:01:51 http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/index.xml 22:02:17 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-164-137.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:21 portage overlays are really fantastic, and the lisp one has 200+ ebuilds 22:03:00 does that thing download code from version control systems? 22:03:07 It can 22:03:15 vasa [n=vasa@mm-11-86-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 22:03:22 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-28-72.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 22:03:26 each ebuild has to be maintained, and you can write an ebuild that will do source control fetching 22:03:28 It doesn't really have much choice, given the amount of lisp software out there that doesn't get released. 22:03:44 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:04 the ebuild maintainers typically will make snapshots that are relatively up-to-date, which is why it's turning out to be a pretty good way to manage my lisp libraries 22:05:17 the other nice thing is if what you want isn't there, it's pretty darn easy to just add it by copying another ebuild, modifying it, generating a digest, and away you go 22:06:18 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:08:45 'afternoon 22:08:50 -!- mek||malloc [n=mek@c-76-118-78-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:10:07 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:10:45 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:11:54 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 22:13:10 mjonsson [n=mjonsson@pool-71-175-134-12.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:21 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@ppp103-195.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:14:32 Beeet [n=stathis@ppp103-195.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:15:40 hello, I updated slime, I added (slime-setup '(slime-repl)), but I still have no repl. any hint where to look for errors pls? 22:16:18 <_3b> did you add the contrib dir to load-path if it wasn't there already? 22:16:33 in *inferior-lisp* 22:16:58 _3b: isn't contribs dir added by slime-setup? 22:17:10 _3b: I added it, yes 22:17:16 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:17:31 <_3b> stassats: dunno, guess if it is i can remove it from my .emacs :) 22:17:42 (add-to-list 'load-path "/home/puchacz/...../slime/contrib") 22:18:09 <_3b> and it looks like slime-setup does add it 22:18:19 _3b: i haven't it in my .emacs 22:18:50 should I expect any errors in *slime-events* ? 22:19:05 Fufie [n=Frog@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:22 well, you never expect errors 22:19:37 (/ 0) ; I expect an error... 22:19:48 <_3b> might check *Messages*, seems like slime repl would be mostly an elisp thing 22:19:56 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:20:30 puchacz: does *inferior-lisp* show up? 22:20:45 nope. the usual "Take this REPL, brother", but I also noticed that "Symbol's function definition is void: slime-repl-set-package" 22:20:56 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:07 stassats: no inferior lisp, but should it be there? I use slime-connect not slime 22:21:25 puchacz: shouldn't then 22:21:44 are versions of swank and slime the same? 22:21:45 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:00 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:22:06 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:44 stassats: yes, I use swank from the same directory that emacs loads up its part 22:22:45 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 22:23:20 and I just downloaded slime-current.tgz 22:23:30 what if you try to do "slime" instead of slime-connect? 22:23:39 does it work? 22:24:48 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BE83.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:53 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@210.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:24:58 checking 22:25:52 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has joined #lisp 22:25:56 despite the name, is it actually current? 22:26:05 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 22:26:06 I have inferior lisp now 22:26:16 Lisp is not inferior! 22:26:40 so who gave the buffer such an offensive name ?? 22:27:00 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-11-86-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:27:10 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-28-72.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:27:13 <_3b> _8david: my best guess is that they either rely on being able to jump into the middle of a function, or store the continuation as a closure 22:27:48 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:27:54 stassats: and yes, slime is current, the NEWS file was modified on 3rd of January 22:27:56 puchacz: that's a common thing.. inferior process, etc. 22:28:22 yes, no worries 22:28:49 but, inferior lisp does not look like my old REPL used to. 22:28:49 puchacz: well, don't look at NEWS file, but yes, it seems to be current, i checked 22:28:59 puchacz: :( 22:30:09 -!- HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:30:11 maybe you haven't properly saved .emacs file? or didn't restart emacs / didn't evaluate (slime-setup ...) 22:30:12 martian [n=philip@U3956.u.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 22:30:28 <_3b> _8david: do you think some more limited (and hopefully easier to implement) form of continuations could be enough to make the async/unthreaded stuff nice? 22:30:51 stassats: no, I am restarting emacs each time. 22:31:06 would it help if I paste slime-events? 22:31:36 <_3b> puchacz: maybe try slime-fancy contrib instead of slime-repl? 22:31:51 let me try then 22:33:24 <_3b> also, does C-c C-c, etc work normally? 22:33:56 C-c C-c works normally 22:34:04 slime-fancy did not help either :-( 22:35:02 go to source and who-calls also work normally 22:35:09 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 22:36:42 shall I possibly go to previous slime and previous sbcl? 22:37:36 probably, but that's strange, with slime-repl contrib it should work, works for me at least 22:37:55 do you use sime or slime-connect? 22:38:42 i'm checking the latter right now 22:41:44 yes, both ways works 22:42:15 hmmmm 22:42:28 I'll get back to this, but now I will rollback 22:42:47 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:43:05 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:45:27 rolled back and it is fine. thanks anyway 22:45:31 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:46:38 _8david: remember I was griping about the clim list widget? it seems even more broken in clim-gtkairo 22:47:06 slyrus pasted "clim-gtkairo list widget problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73784 22:47:16 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:10 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:45 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:54 -!- HET3 is now known as HET2 22:51:14 rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:05 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:58 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-35-80.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:07 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:47 -!- jkantz_ [n=jkantz@c-66-30-114-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:59:58 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:03 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:04:43 iof [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:18 hi, does anybody know if the Lisa project is still alive? I tried emailing the author with a bug, and got no reponse 23:05:26 it's been a few weeks 23:05:42 -!- md` [n=user@213-151-238-36.icss.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:44 -!- sjbach_ [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:44 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:44 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:44 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-0689e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:44 -!- bartiosze [i=bartiosz@nintendos.pl] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:07:09 sjbach_ [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:09 bartiosze [i=bartiosz@nintendos.pl] has joined #lisp 23:07:09 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 23:07:09 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-0689e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:07:09 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:07:27 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 23:07:53 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 23:07:58 cads [n=max@c-71-56-69-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:31 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-0689e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:08:38 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-0689e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:09:47 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-24-85.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:39 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:03 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 23:16:28 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:17:20 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk111.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:18:24 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:36 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@CPE0016b6145127-CM001a6682dc74.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:19:44 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:04 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.223.189] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:22:33 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:24:10 dsrc [n=dsrc@198.145.218.203] has joined #lisp 23:27:28 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:27:52 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@CPE0016b6145127-CM001a6682dc74.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:28:45 If i want to return true should I type T or 'T ? 23:28:52 t 23:29:07 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@CPE0016b6145127-CM001a6682dc74.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:29 Thanks S11001001. So if i want to return false, I should return 'nil or (not T) ? 23:29:43 nil 23:29:52 Thanks guys 23:29:56 -!- Beeet is now known as Beket 23:30:02 anything other than nil is 'true' 23:30:05 BrianRice [n=briantri@97-113-55-158.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:51 and don't forget that () is the same as nil 23:33:02 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:13 stathis_ [n=stathis@ppp154-85.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:33:45 or '() 23:33:58 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:34:01 or (eval #.(quote ''())) 23:34:05 no, thats (quote nil) 23:34:11 nil is nil 23:34:22 in an evaluation context is all you usually care about 23:34:40 (read-from-string "'nil") 23:34:46 vs. 23:34:55 (read-from-string "nil") 23:35:07 that doesn't put the read object in evaluation context 23:35:26 not everything is evaluated 23:35:29 yes, I know 23:35:36 '( 'nil ) 23:35:40 vs. 23:35:42 that's what the "usually" was for 23:35:43 guys, when i SLIME-COMPILE-FILE, i don't get a buffer showing errors, warnings and notes like in Marco Baringer's SLIME tutorial movie, why? :) 23:35:47 '( nil ) 23:36:09 <_3b> drdo: slime UI changes a lot :/ 23:36:10 drdo: you managed not to make errors? 23:36:13 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:36:13 drdo: maybe you made no mistakes? 23:36:24 data in lisp is usually evaluating to itself 23:36:26 i did on purpose 23:36:31 just to be able to see it 23:37:21 <_3b> it should highlight the code at least 23:37:27 it does highlight 23:38:08 <_3b> try hitting C-x ` 23:38:24 Is it possible to trace a locally named function which was introduced with LABELS ? 23:38:44 that depends on the implementation 23:38:46 The mini-buffer reports 1 warning, 4 notes 23:40:09 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp103-195.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:40:18 <_3b> or M-x slime-show-compilation-log 23:40:54 I don't have that command 23:41:04 :S 23:41:25 <_3b> how old is your slime? 23:42:32 2.0_p20081209-r2 23:44:04 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 23:44:27 -!- arwed [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:45:09 -!- Fufie [n=Frog@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:45:20 there is slime-compiler-notes-tree contrib, though it is broken because provides wrong name 23:45:21 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 23:46:02 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.223.189] has joined #lisp 23:48:46 it looks like the old compiler notes lister 23:49:41 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 23:50:46 -!- martian [n=philip@U3956.u.pppool.de] has quit ["CU"] 23:51:34 -!- user___ [n=user@p54927024.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:55:42 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4853.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"]