00:00:10 schme: admittedly, it is a ruby experience. GTK got me about a day to get working in. By then I understood it, could use buttons and menu-bars and could use the firefox-thing (for that was what I needed)... I assume you should take the same amount of time on lisp 00:00:15 schme, no, don't give them the code and make them pay to connect :D 00:00:25 weirdo: How does that even work on the offline? 00:00:26 by using webapps, you won't have to abide to the terms of gpl 00:00:27 nothing wrong with web apps if your ui requirements fit within that limited context 00:00:31 schme, it doesn't 00:00:39 weirdo: So that's complete shit. Then I can't use my software. 00:00:46 abide the gpl? wtf? 00:00:48 :) 00:01:10 schme, if you run a webapp with some gpl bits in it, you don't *redistribute* it, so there's no need to follow the gpl 00:01:24 webapps could get a little tricky if you don't have that huge list of "ajax patterns" I scrapped from various books and blog posts :-P 00:01:24 that is correct 00:01:27 madnificent: That sounds great. I'm mostly just worrying about the rewrite of my shit. 00:01:29 there is also agpl 00:01:37 weirdo: I know that. I am just confused to why the heck I would care? 00:01:52 fusss, care to share? 00:02:03 the other thing about ajax is that it really doesn't give you the rich ui environment you get from native toolkits 00:02:12 schme, right. i just like to poke fun at gpl zealotry from time to time 00:02:16 :) 00:02:18 weirdo: Oh ok. 00:02:19 weirdo: gotta clean it up and hunchentootity it first. plus try the 80% of it i haven't tried yet. 00:02:21 web apps don't generally gain a lot from ajax 00:02:29 weirdo: Really though it seems to me that lisp libraries seldom is under the GPL. 00:02:34 clisp excluded. 00:02:56 clisp got that wrong 00:02:57 well you either follow copyright law or you don't 00:03:06 if you follow copyright law and do th emoral thing that is zealotry 00:03:13 clisp has to go with it. It insists on the readline. 00:03:23 clisp was bsd-licensed before 00:03:26 if you don't give a shit and want to be taken to court or at least at minimum deal with the free software foundation lawyers then you are practical 00:03:33 is that how the labels are defined now? 00:03:42 I don't quite see the point of the readline .. It only makes sense outside of SLIME :) 00:03:43 all the gpl says is don't steal under these conditions 00:03:45 clisp got strong armed, when Free software was a cause and not a commodity. 00:03:53 no one says you haveto use it, charge people for your code 00:03:55 it didn't have to license under gpl since it was bsd 00:04:06 bsd doesn't create additional requirements over gpl 00:04:17 weirdo: I think it had to because it is using libreadline. 00:04:27 that's the opinion of software freedom law center, biggest bunch of gpl fscktards and zealots 00:04:28 Hmm, I came across something that's confusing the heck out of me, (when (wild-pathname-p pathname) -- From the link: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-portable-pathname-library.html -- What's confusing is that when statement, if the wild-path-name-p is evaluated to T, it should toss an error at that point, but I'm kinda confused why we want to toss an error like that. 00:04:34 bsd basically says: go ahead, steal everything we made and give nothing back under all circumstances 00:04:42 certainly as idealism goes thats the most pure 00:04:47 the concequences are obvious 00:04:47 weirdo: Anyway clisp agreed, so everyone is happy :) 00:04:55 *weirdo* doesn't gpl his software since he doesn't want anyone to suffer state violence because of his software 00:05:07 fusss: freedom will always be important, now more so than ever 00:05:31 TDT: I'll look 00:05:44 fusss: now that we live in the day and age where everything is drm'd and you can't do jack wihtout agreeing to click a check box to some bullshit agreement you can bet your bottom dollar freedom is not a commodity 00:05:47 I get a 404 00:05:54 that doesn't mean you haveto gpl anything tho 00:06:03 oh there we go. 00:06:39 is public domain a license? 00:06:49 TDT: Ok. How would you handle the problem ? 00:06:56 no, its just a legal term relative to your locality 00:06:57 or is it distinct from licensing? 00:07:08 moocow: what software and web services are you using? not a single DRMed crap in my computer, except the computer itself :-P 00:07:10 distinct, its a legal standing 00:07:29 fusss: i use 99.9 percent open source 00:07:34 i was thinking about making my software 'public domain but if you like it, you can credit me as the author' 00:07:39 schme: Well, the way I'm thinking is that if you want to use "not" or something like that (was going to write it a different way), then the when should evaluate T only if I give it something like "/foo/bar", and then toss the error. 00:07:48 i don't buy dvd's or cd's but i do use proprietary software for work where i haveto which is a lot 00:07:56 and i wonder if that has any legal meaning 00:08:04 Can someone sue you if your PD code explodes his computer? 00:08:12 schme: Maybe I'm misunderstanding the purpose of the function, but I haven't run it yet, I"m just going through line by line making sure I understand all the function calls and what's going on. 00:08:18 TDT: Hmmm.. I'm not quite following your reasoning. 00:08:24 TDT: you know what wild pathname is? 00:08:27 Beeet: good question, no idea. depends on the locality 00:08:45 in germany the question is probably yes, i read they have very strict consumer protection laws and liability is part of that 00:08:47 stassats: Yeah, something like "/foo/bar/*", it's looking for the * to denote a wildcharacter. 00:08:56 Beeet: only if your code exploited a kernel vulnerability and deliberately whosed some circuitry via BIOS calls :-P 00:09:02 schme: Yeah, I have a feeling I'm misunderstanding this a bit is probably the problem right now. 00:09:04 yep, who do you convert it to directory? 00:09:12 weirdo, perhaps better a 2-clause BSD licence ? 00:09:16 fusss, LOL 00:09:18 oh wait. 00:09:20 ok i'm an idiot 00:09:20 *how 00:09:35 TDT: We're all idiots :) 00:09:40 "can't reliably convert wild pathnames", os if it's a pathname we want to toss that error 00:09:53 I totally misread that 00:10:02 I assumed we wanted to convert it into a wild pathname 00:10:08 god, sorry guys, that was a stupid question 00:10:31 That is why one should not hack code at 1 am ;) 00:11:07 hah, I don't have much of an excuse here, it's only 6 PM..maybe too exhausted from the day, I could use that as an excuse, haha. 00:11:48 Well this is troublesome. "All source and stuff is on the CD included with the book" ... the CD!? :( 00:11:59 Yeah, didn't get one here. 00:12:11 TDT: I do that all the time. Think about shit, then pop a question here or some other channel. 00:12:12 mine says "source code online" 00:12:14 and aaaah d'oh. 00:12:21 TDT: Not the same book I am sure :) 00:13:29 Beeet, i'm using an X11 license, but it doesn't do away with state violence, people could still be targeted for plagiarism 00:14:01 in some jurisdictions the state can sue people for copyright infringement, not just the author 00:14:02 I'm always amused by how people get all fired up about software licenses, and make it seem like its some important thing in the world. 00:14:14 GPL will stop world hunger, if you use BSD everyone will DIE! 00:14:15 etc. 00:14:36 or microsoft, 'oh noes gpl is communism' 00:14:43 aaah yes. 00:14:52 or "don't you use closed source, it is evil" 00:14:52 (which is not) 00:14:52 -!- drforr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has quit [Killed by james ()] 00:14:58 that's why i'm not using licenses, just PD 00:15:07 weirdo: in fact it _is_. 00:15:21 It always amuses me, when it comes to that question. 00:15:21 stassats: I'd love PD. It just does not work in most of the world. to actively put stuff into the PD :) 00:15:37 I wonder, did Stallman read Lenin or not? 00:15:42 PD? 00:15:43 Phew. all source available online. 00:15:45 schme: you think gpl or bsd works? 00:15:56 ASau, maybe from a collectivist perspective where lack of personal property is enforced 00:16:03 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 00:16:11 schme: find it on the front of your book ;)' 00:16:13 ASau: I seem to remember Linus' father being active in the leftist politics though. 00:16:21 stassats: Well it works for licensing source. 00:16:31 err back 00:16:32 stassats: While saying "This is PD" does not. 00:16:33 I guess 00:16:34 but i'm not decided whether i'm collectivist or individualist 00:16:43 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:44 weirdo: if you know Lenin or Stalin points of view, you will easily find similarities. 00:16:46 schme: will it work in court? 00:16:55 stassats: Of course it will. 00:17:08 drforr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:23 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:23 ASau, lenin made the nomenklatura the new bourgeoise, a bottom-up approach would work better... 00:17:25 OT: just found this profound. http://libre-comme-lart.deviantart.com/art/hulk-hyde-108910212 00:17:27 stassats: BSDL worked in famous UCB v. USL case. 00:17:29 stassats: As an author I can put any license on my shit that I like. I can not, however, put it in the public domain. 00:17:41 stassats: Which does seem to work in the US. 00:17:41 ASau: in US, right? 00:17:43 weirdo: not at all. 00:17:55 schme: well, i'm not in the US 00:17:58 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:18:13 stassats: Then I doubt that you can actually put stuff in the PD, no matter how much you try :) 00:18:49 Also I don't think anyone would take anyone to court regarding this. 00:18:58 ASau, yes it did. and it was butt-kissing opportunists that comprised the party, not people who knew their trade 00:18:59 Hey man, you put a license on here that don't make sense. 00:19:03 schme: placing in PD seems to be prohibited in US (which is doubtful), not here for instance. 00:19:03 that's just.. dumb :) 00:19:36 ASau: It's not so much that it is prohibited in most of the world, it is just not possible. 00:19:46 But anyway. 00:19:50 I need my protein shake. 00:20:07 the only people who benefit from it are the lawyers, anyway 00:20:08 schme: it is possible here and DJB argues it is possible in USA too. 00:20:11 My main issue with licenses is really how the GPL gets in the way of codeing :) 00:20:32 authors would just want to say 'do whatever you want with the software' and have that valid legal meaning 00:20:40 but hell no, it has to be written in legalese 00:20:45 see 'creative commons' 00:20:57 weirdo: You can say that. Though I'm not sure it rhymes well with the berne convention. 00:21:03 i'm waiting for the good times, when either it will be possible to use PD, or i'll be dead and it'll become PD anyway 00:21:10 Ya. 00:21:26 schme: Berne Convention is mostly about default rights. 00:21:30 Me.. I'll just try to write code ;) 00:21:37 the capitalist hegemony is just asking itself to be brought down 00:21:47 the capitalist hegemony. 00:21:48 my god. 00:21:56 Note old "All rights reserved" words. 00:21:57 The discussion one can have about that. 00:22:13 weirdo: Do not get me started ;) 00:22:39 it's not as easy as it sounds... weathermen didn't accomplish much :( 00:22:51 weathermen? 00:22:52 ASau: How is code in the public domain prohibited in the U.S.? 00:23:10 schme, the americans who blowed stuff up for graet justice in the 70's 00:23:19 weirdo: Never heard of 'em. 00:23:31 I seem to remember some shit was blown up in the US some year or so ago. 00:23:32 but they never changed anything, regime change was way out of their league 00:23:33 hmmm.. 00:23:36 schme: Big news here when Obama was running for president. 00:23:38 wasn't the 70's. 00:23:46 at least they busted out timothy leary 00:23:49 2000's some time. 00:23:51 TDT: IANAL, but there're talks about DMCA and related laws demand copiright protection. 00:23:58 well, quietly discussion came to a regular theme on licenses 00:24:37 TDT: in a way that you can't declare your work of art public domain. 00:24:49 TDT: there are laws which restrict use of all creative works, so therefor you can not just put shit in the PD. it is like that mostly everywhere :) 00:24:53 P.D. is _essentially_ not protected. 00:24:58 TDT: Who won anyway? 00:25:19 ASau: Ah, hmm, I would have to read that, I find it hard that you can't release something to public domain, quite confident you can - not that it's done a whole lot perhaps. 00:25:26 schme: Obama won, not by a huge amount. 00:25:42 schme, maybe in case someone got persecuted by the state for copyright infrignemnt of soem author works, that author could write to the court to grant him rights immediately and not dispense the violence anymore? 00:25:56 I'm not expert in Anglo-Saxon law anyway. It is brain damage. 00:26:03 obama and mccain have the same corporate owners 00:26:11 weirdo: Well why would I press charges in the first place then? :) 00:26:14 weirdo: Unfortunately you're right 00:26:32 south park had an obama mccain episode. 00:26:32 schme, in some jurisdiction the state itself can persecute people for copyright infringement 00:26:37 They're just there to get the jewel 00:26:45 weirdo: How odd. 00:26:46 people just need an alternative, 'the best way to triumph over opposition is to lead it 00:26:52 I heard that for 3rd in charge for Attorney General is one of the main guys with the RIAA...which sucks, horribly. 00:27:08 ok we are going to bed 00:27:14 g'night. 00:27:17 Cya 00:28:01 good night schme 00:28:32 didn't the Weathermen want to operate concentration camps and gas like 40 million people? 00:28:52 I can't say I know much about them 00:28:56 good thing they were a bunch of rich boy idiots 00:29:06 but one thing I'm sure of is violence is not the answer, so I wouldn't agree with their actions. 00:29:10 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:31:40 Adamant, they didn't 00:31:45 heh one thing that PCL is worrying me about is reading chapter 15 makes me feel that the implementations between different lisp-implementations (sbcl, cl, etc) is a nightmare to follow sometime. 00:31:47 that's not even state kool-aid, you made it up 00:31:55 weirdo: huh? 00:32:04 it was in Prarie Fire IIRC 00:32:18 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:32:25 oh, i'd better check it out, then 00:32:29 they claimed they'd have to kill 40 million Americans to get the world they wanted 00:32:48 TDT: yeah, you are right, but fortunately we have some compatibility libraries 00:32:52 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-058-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:09 not sure why that much 00:33:20 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.158.78] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:33:21 killing the wealthiest 1% would be a safe bet 00:33:23 it was an estimate 00:33:45 weirdo: I'd certainly want to shoot them in the face 00:33:50 and killing wouldn't be the only option... nationalizing their property would be enough... but it's offtopic :) 00:34:16 and I'm not close to rich 00:34:38 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:34:59 they were some lame attention-seekers anyway, they never knew how to overthrow the state 00:35:09 weirdo: Really, while yeah this is off topic, I think just adjusting the tax rates would be better. Instead of decreasing the tax for the super rich, turn it upside down - lower taxes for people who don't make as much, and more for people who do. Taxes stay the same coming in, just wouldn't screw the majority of the people quite so bad. 00:35:22 TDT: we already have that 00:35:32 it's called the income tax 00:35:45 Adamant: Not really, the income tax for the rich are a less overall percentage, than the poor. 00:35:57 TDT: uh no 00:36:02 the rates are higher for the rich 00:36:04 TDT, the problem is that politicians answer to corporate elite, not the people 00:36:15 *TDT* checks tax tables 00:36:19 proletariat and the middle class is politically disenfranchised 00:36:26 also any plan to establish a communist state in 2008 is stupid 00:36:35 we've already seen what happens there 00:36:47 it could work with a different ideology, not ol' marxism-leninism 00:37:18 socialism works just fine in, say, venezuela or bolivia 00:37:32 weirdo: apparently not 00:37:37 Adamant: You're right, thanks for the clarification. The increase isn't much, but there is some. 00:37:43 the natural gas producing parts of Bolivia are revolting 00:37:49 (...) 00:37:58 and Venezuela's economy has contracted in every sector but oi 00:37:59 l 00:38:08 and now oil is ~$30 00:38:14 so they are in a world of shit 00:38:22 and there are the scandinavian welfare states 00:38:35 right, but they're market socialists 00:39:37 establishing pure communist wouldn't be as much a matter of legislation or leadership, but mindset of the people 00:39:45 s/communist/communism 00:40:09 if you want to do the communist thing, join some religious movement that favors something similar and live it on the small scale 00:40:16 only real place it works 00:40:40 thats nonsense 00:40:58 the political system is as much a function of human psychology as culture 00:41:09 in some cultures and under certain circumstances it may infact work 00:41:13 in others it may not 00:41:42 moocow: we haven't found a developed culture where it works 00:41:56 that doesn't mean it can't work 00:42:02 the contrary is also true 00:42:08 fair enough, but the odds don't look good 00:42:22 capitalism has been deemed as the greatest way to guarantee personal freedom and personal wealth 00:42:31 americans have disproven that handily 00:42:38 i would agree with that 00:43:01 hey guys, what about talking about lisp? 00:43:07 okay :) 00:43:10 good plan 00:43:29 I could always ask another question, but don't want to ruin my welcome, heh. 00:43:44 how macro'y can macros get? can you write macros that write macros that write code? 00:43:53 -!- md1 [n=user@213-151-238-36.icss.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:55 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-048-227.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:00 TDT: don't hesitate! 00:44:00 Adamant, the paris commune? 00:44:00 Adamant: 'yes' 00:44:14 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk120.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 00:44:42 Adamant, yes, see once-only 00:45:05 weirdo pasted "macro-writing macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73678 00:45:24 stassats: hah, ok. Well, about the compatibility thing, was just curious what libraries exist for trying to maintain compatibility between various lisp implementations, but also..well, ch15 has a lot of the wild-pathname, and all being an issue - dunno, kinda curious if there's other stuff too I gotta really watch for. 00:45:32 -!- Beeet is now known as Beket 00:46:00 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:46:13 i've read a few critiques about lisp out there over the last little while 00:46:16 I've been using sbcl a whole lot lately, but I read of a cl-launcher that can run commands trough the shell like normal programs, so kinda using cl I suppose too, I think. Right now my WM is the only thing using cl-launcher, but eventually I want more to do it. 00:46:35 TDT: most incompatibilities exists in the area of interaction with OS, filesystem, threads, sockets, ffi, and so on 00:46:49 so far the critiques fall into two categories: not enough libraries and commonl lisp definition keeps the language static 00:47:00 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["leaving I am, mtfbwy"] 00:47:07 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 00:47:19 TDT: what WM ? 00:47:34 Is Jochen Schmidt in the house? 00:47:34 how big is the library complaint anyway? if its true there aren't as many as say python ... just curious what people think about why that is? 00:48:00 moocow: I haven't read too many critiques yet, but mostly people complain about the parens way too much, the difficulity is insanely complex at first too, but it's fun - more fun than I've had with almost any other language so far. 00:48:08 -!- H4ns [n=hans@72-255-31-86.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:48:10 fe[nl]ix: I'm using stumpwm, which is written in CL. 00:48:40 fe[nl]ix: It's really quite nice I gotta say, started using it a week or so ago, and definitely addicted to it 00:48:50 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.144.242] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:55 TDT: yeah i'm a noob i find that too, i don't care about the parens 00:49:05 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:49:08 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:49:12 TDT: stumpwm doesn't use cl-launch 00:49:32 TDT, paren't aren't an issue. just make them appear as dark gray 00:49:47 and they help a lot with refactoring, see paredit 00:50:13 there's even redshank for more refactoring goodness 00:50:33 fe[nl]ix: You can use it, yeah, for launching from .xinitrc, I have /usr/bin/stumpwm, which has for the second line: #| CL-LAUNCH 2.03 CONFIGURATION 00:50:47 fe[nl]ix: There are a few ways to start it, the cl-launch was my preferred method. 00:51:02 its not like lisp cannot be redefined to use indentation instead of parens like python, its just you really end up with the same problem either way 00:51:19 people hate indentation the way they hate parens the way they hate curly braces 00:51:25 weirdo: I find them helpful, but I rely a lot on emacs to indent things correctly to help. 00:51:30 TDT: oh, so you wrapped it with cl-launch yourself 00:51:56 fe[nl]ix: Found some notes online on doing it, actually. Was the first time I used cl-launch, but was the only way I could think of launching it from .xinitrc 00:52:01 TDT, yes. that's true, lisping isn't any efficient without emacs or similar editor 00:52:06 H4ns [n=hans@72-255-31-86.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:50 TDT, but conversely, lisping in emacs is way more productive than programming in other language 00:53:57 weirdo: Yeah, I touched the tip of the iceburg on the whole lisp programming in emacs thing right now, and find it nice. I'd say that irb for ruby or ipython for python is pretty darn good for an equivalent, if you use term-mode in emacs, but the integration isn't near as good as it is with slime/sbcl/emacs 00:54:00 its not that much more efficient in any other language 00:54:10 without an ide either 00:54:27 moocow: I kinda disagree with that actually. Depends heavily on the language. 00:54:32 weirdo: keep in mind that it does depend on the task at hand 00:55:06 TDT: i'll keep an open mind :) 00:55:26 I like lisp. 00:55:49 hi sykopomp 00:55:50 sykopomp: strange words to hear in #lisp 00:56:04 stassats: if only that were sarcasm. 00:56:09 so what are the chances of that tutorial for 2009? 00:56:15 :) 00:56:20 moocow: working on it now ;p 00:56:28 awesome :) 00:56:39 the tutorial is pretty useless, though :) 00:56:49 perfect :) 00:57:02 it's more marketing than anything I would give people that actually want to learn it :3 00:57:51 I think really what helps is actually the culture of this room. At least of rme. I started on python some time ago, but the people in #python can be complete jerks. Turned me off on that language a whole lot at first, which may sound silly..but yeah. 00:58:36 TDT: I found #python people to be quite agreeable when I was lurking there some time ago. 00:58:41 Kinda weird though that most of the people I noticed talking are from all different countries. Would be nice to find the demographics for the rooms with jerks vs the rooms without. 00:58:45 sykopomp: you'd be surprised how little knowledge some 'experienced' programmers have 00:58:47 sykopomp: as interacting with the unix filesystem isn't easy peasy in the language i'm looking for anything to get me to poke around with the language 00:58:51 at least compared to the cultures I found in places like ##java and ##c++ 00:58:52 anything would be great 00:59:02 sykopomp: Go in there and say "lmao" or something like that, you'll get banned. 00:59:31 TDT: this channel is definately nicer than most programming channels 00:59:40 moocow: agreed there. 00:59:41 TDT: that is because everybody knows you're actually laughing at the language ;) 00:59:49 sykopomp: tutorial in what? 00:59:50 people say that users here an be jerks but i've never really seen it 01:00:01 some users have very strong opinions but never mean 01:00:15 rsynnott: I'm writing a short lisp tutorial along the lines of ruby-lang.org's "Ruby in 20 minutes" thing. 01:00:20 ah 01:00:27 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:28 (it's not a big deal) 01:01:05 (but I can't write useful code -- the failures are always relegated to teaching positions, unless they're like, awesome professors that get paid to be awesome) 01:01:11 rsynnott: for non lispers its a bit of a challenge just to get a lisp environment up an drunning even in ubuntu 01:01:12 TDT, irb is so totally inferior to slime-mode 01:01:29 so any tutorial of that sort that can walk us noobs through and show us some of the ropes is helpfull 01:01:35 weirdo: you can't really compare irb or ipython to SLIME 01:01:35 see slime-who-*, xref, compile-defun and friends 01:01:43 weirdo: Yeah, it's something I haven't got into that much yet, the slime-mode stuff. As I mentioned, tip of the iceburg. 01:01:47 there's more to SLIME than the glorified REPL 01:01:48 sykopomp: I did earlier 01:01:50 when i started i had a hard time understanding what was what in the repos and the differences between sbcl, cl, etc just to start with 01:01:54 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-f7ed96f3a450caa5] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:02:01 then when i got slime working i didn't really understand the typical workflow 01:02:07 weirdo: true that 01:02:10 sykopomp, it's really strange, ruby's almost as dynamic as lisp and they don't have any good editor for it 01:02:12 or a VM 01:02:13 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-132.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:17 i'm not sure i understand it well yet but anything he can write will help 01:02:18 TDT: (append * "...and expect it to be taken seriously") 01:02:20 i started learning lisp by typing "clisp" in the shell, not a challenge 01:02:37 VM's more than a bytecode, when will people learn finally? 01:02:52 moocow: I pretty much followed what PCL said, then switched over to SBCL in the end. I aerd better things about it. 01:03:00 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:03:01 stassats: sure, i have yet to understand how a lisp program is delivered and setup on a system for example 01:03:04 they call JVM a "vm", even though it can't compare to lisp or smalltalk vm's 01:03:15 i know how to do it in pretty well every other language, here its a bit of a haze 01:03:20 moocow: I think a lot of people have yet to understand that, as well. 01:03:22 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB"] 01:03:31 moocow, delivery can be done by, say, sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die in sbcl 01:03:42 aha! 01:03:44 note that it takes helluva space on sbcl 01:03:48 6 MB for an executable 01:03:52 weirdo: 30 01:03:53 sorry. 20 MB or more 01:03:55 + 01:04:00 oh wow 01:04:01 well, i'm not thinking about delivering application when i'm learning a language 01:04:03 sykopomp, depends on the contents of the image 01:04:19 neither am i but if you can't deliver software why learn the language? 01:04:22 a tree shaker for sbcl might be nice, eventually. 01:04:28 one kinda is the product of the other 01:04:38 it can be changed eventually, there were plans to make images without the compiler, for instance 01:04:38 of course one knows it can be done as it is done :) 01:04:40 moocow: a lot of people here develop server-side applications for which delivery isn't really an issue. 01:04:52 sykopomp: oh good point 01:04:53 yes 01:04:58 moocow: just for fun 01:05:02 it could be alleviated further by, say, keeping the debugging info in a weak hash table which can be cleared when doing delivery 01:05:08 stassats: lol, okay right 01:05:09 same with docstrings 01:05:17 that could shrink the image to a healthier size 01:05:29 20 mb uncompressed is no big deal today 01:05:41 xristos, cl-perec images are 70 MB and more 01:05:46 but not having the compiler around is a problem, too 01:05:48 I agree with xristos, actually. 01:06:12 i can think of a lot more things more crucial than a tree shaker 01:06:22 plus, the images are much smaller when you assume your target computer has sbcl installed already. ;) 01:06:23 with 20mb your app will look solid for the user 01:06:26 if i, say, delivered a gui app and someone found a bug, i could send them some code to paste into the listener and the app would work again without restarting 01:06:27 well i just bought a few terrabyte hds for 160$'s each so thats a decent point 01:06:37 sykopomp, they are? 01:06:39 xristos: of course, hence "eventually" 01:06:46 so question ... 01:06:54 sykopomp, the actual sbcl executable is very small 01:07:14 lets pretend we wanted everyone on linux to write in lisp 01:07:17 weirdo: if you don't have to pack in the compiler + debugger, it's small. Yes. You need to run the image with sbcl, though. 01:07:24 would each app then be delivered with its own compiler built in? 01:07:34 moocow: if everyone had sbcl installed already, no. 01:07:46 okay so you can have a shared envrionment 01:07:49 just like with java -- you need them to have the VM 01:07:49 sykopomp, i can't include another core in my core, i have to make one big core out of it 01:08:11 sykopomp: ah okay got it. so its not trully a problem 01:08:18 it is 01:08:24 because? 01:08:37 sykopomp, is there some way to make a core without the compiler? 01:08:42 look at ecl, it has a small libecl 01:08:50 weirdo: I don't know? 01:09:21 well, you suggested it's possible. thought you were doing just that :-) 01:09:25 moocow: because not everyone has sbcl installed, and distributing a 30mb image, even if it's not much nowadays, is absurd for a lot of small applications. 01:09:53 did you guys not say a moment ago if you had sbcl installed you don't haveto do that? 01:09:57 what am i missing here 01:10:04 weirdo: I thought you could just dump an image that could be later loaded with sbcl, without having to include the compiler and debugger with it... 01:10:05 its either like java vm or not ... yes? 01:10:10 (as in, not make a standalone executable) 01:10:12 it is like java 01:10:24 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:10:30 sykopomp, hmm. i could simply fmakunbound everything in sb-c, ha! :-) 01:10:32 except from market penetration 01:10:37 then its not a problem 01:10:54 weirdo: and wait for the dragons 01:10:55 you either deliver a self executable in which case its a big binary 01:11:06 moocow: in the real world where java is in every computer and sbcl is not, this is a pretty serious issue. 01:11:07 or you deliver one that requires the runtime in which case its normal size 01:11:17 stassats, i can kill dragons with my +5 equipment 01:11:32 sykopomp: i understand where you are comming from, but at one point in time it was an issue with java too 01:11:46 weirdo: you can put them in parentheses, i think 01:11:53 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:55 moocow: and java has had tons of money behind it, specially with marketing 01:12:06 sure sure 01:12:14 this stuff is relevant. 01:12:32 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:41 yeah i get it. i personally wouldn't worry too much about it 01:12:41 the problem's with making closed-source sbcl executables 01:12:55 stuff includes tons of debugging info so it wouldn't be hard to reverse-engineer 01:13:03 but then, i don't do closed-source stuff 01:13:06 i'm used to packaging stuff for various distros so i'm comforteable exepecting all customers to pick the version that they need 01:13:15 wth the expectation some won't have the skills to do so 01:13:22 i'd typically include a shell script for making a core with my stuff in it 01:13:26 yeah totally, i see what you are saying 01:13:33 well, we have not only sbcl out there 01:13:44 there's CCL too 01:13:48 commercial apps do delivery 01:13:50 ugh 01:13:52 commercial lisps 01:14:06 ecl is coming up to speed 01:14:08 software delivery has always been hard tho 01:14:08 yes, i was thinking more about commercial lisps 01:14:11 its never been easy 01:14:23 can ecl even do swank? 01:14:28 yes 01:14:32 weirdo: barely 01:14:32 oh 01:14:39 so now only if it can do unicode and babel 01:14:45 and threads... 01:14:57 it has threads, and some unicode 01:15:13 maybe it's not that bad, then 01:15:21 wonder if it does ffi 01:15:34 weirdo: it does 01:15:36 it should do ffi pretty good 01:15:40 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:15:44 perhaps it can be used for gui app delivery 01:16:03 to avoid having dog slow clisp for ms windows 01:16:51 clisp's not that bad, actually, it only runs about twice as slow than sbcl, not orders of magnitude :P 01:16:57 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@84.131.244.153] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:17:08 isn't clisp also better at on-the-go compilation? 01:17:21 it has that JIT compiler they're working on, too. 01:17:28 wow 01:17:34 and experimental threads 01:17:47 maybe it could be as good as sbcl one day :) 01:17:49 i doubt either is usable at the moment 01:18:01 (that's the reason, I read, for PG choosing clisp for viaweb) 01:18:42 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has left #lisp 01:19:25 stassats: ATM JIT-compiled code is slower than interpreted and threads are very unstable 01:20:40 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:37 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:22:05 don't know why they decided to do jit and threads, clisp is good at what it is 01:22:40 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:22:48 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 01:23:05 with so few developers they can unlikely compete with sbcl, for example 01:24:14 Maahes [n=Mihos@cpe-76-169-173-133.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:18 holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 01:29:02 sbcl could use some love, too 01:29:17 e.g. win32 support or compilation speed 01:29:17 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:29:23 g'day 01:29:25 sleep did not work. 01:29:29 oh. 01:29:37 and for running on ARM linux! 01:29:54 is there a reverse format function 01:30:04 A reverse format ? 01:30:11 a parser using format like directives 01:30:15 like scanf? 01:30:38 not exactly like scanf 01:31:08 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:31:17 well it's not important anyway 01:31:39 :( 01:32:37 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:41 hmm, i must try to compile ecl or clisp for arm linux 01:32:54 sohail, there's pattern matching :) 01:33:13 stassats: clisp is just ./configure and make away. 01:33:15 but not exactly like format 01:33:41 schme: yeah, i heard about some problems with its libraries 01:33:48 stassats: ? 01:33:55 stassats: I never noticed that :( 01:34:12 libffi or libsegv 01:34:33 sigsegv, rather 01:34:47 well sure. libsigsegv is always a bitch with clisp. I can't get that working on any platform. 01:35:13 seems to work on my x86 linux 01:35:23 Really? What did you do to make that work? 01:36:21 it's from slackware package 01:36:27 Hrrrm. 01:36:37 I've tried for hours on both LFS and debian systems. 01:36:46 and debian with libsigsegv built by hand too. 01:36:48 It's impossible. 01:37:08 yeah, i had troubles with it on debian too 01:37:30 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:38:16 strange though. 01:38:22 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:26 I also had the same issues on lfs on arm. 01:38:31 beach [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 01:38:37 Good morning. 01:38:41 mornin' 01:38:48 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:10 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has joined #lisp 01:39:12 simplechat_ [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:39:16 Well it seems common music is all scheme. boho :( 01:40:09 Really? 01:40:10 Though maybe one could update the old lisp stuff hmmm.. 01:40:11 Yes really. 01:40:16 since 2.4 or something. 01:40:40 ok not all scheme. scheme and C++. Just no CL 01:41:28 Well back to bed :) 01:42:02 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:32 -!- simplechat_ [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:03 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has joined #lisp 01:44:03 hey beach 01:44:09 beach: meant to tell you to checkout the german brewery while down there. found it really cool. 01:44:10 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:44:11 qebab_ [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 01:45:00 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:47:02 fusss: On Pasteur? 01:47:37 simplechat_ [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:47:38 I think so. 01:47:41 fusss: I was there last night. 01:47:46 (if that's the one) 01:49:11 i don't know the directions by name, i had a motorcycle (!) 01:49:11 wooot! :-P 01:49:11 how about the fake Hard Rock Cafe? :-D 01:49:11 i liked those places more than the sleaze ball that is heart of darkness 01:49:35 -!- masm [n=user@a83-132-153-17.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:50:11 never liked hcmc that much. i'm more of a phenom penh guy :-) 01:53:14 if your french is good, free coffee at the francophone cafe (behind the Museum of American War Crimes) you just chat with locals in french. i had to buy a french guy coffee and cake :-/ 01:53:43 alright, enough OT 01:54:32 cads_ [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:33 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:55:43 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:58:16 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:33 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:02:11 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-003-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 02:03:11 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp91-122-100-90.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 02:04:12 fusss: Thanks for all the helpful hints. 02:06:37 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B0FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:10:14 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:18:26 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-219.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:23:08 -!- sulo [n=sulo@p57B4B238.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:29 -!- holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:26:00 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 02:28:31 pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167207003.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:45 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:38 -!- qebab_ [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:34:28 anyone have that link to peter norvig's "lisp features I like" thing? 02:35:03 nm, found it. 02:35:16 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 02:35:25 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:41:03 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp103-195.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:41:05 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:39 benny` [n=benny@i577A0221.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:46:33 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:47:04 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:48:49 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 02:54:12 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:13 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:40 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A098A.versanet.de] has 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[n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:07:02 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-137.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 04:07:52 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:59 anyone know how to make the effect of highlighting s-exps like in this tutorial (and I guess like in paste.lisp.org)? http://dirtyhack.org/vetler/docs/cl-webapp-intro/part-1/ 04:11:00 chrisliaw [n=chris@219.93.36.231] has joined #lisp 04:11:32 ok well i see it's through CSS, but i wonder if there is a lisp library to generate the CSS? 04:11:36 http://paste.lisp.org/system-server/: sources of lisp-paste 04:12:13 cooldude` [n=user@lawn-128-61-118-203.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 04:13:20 http://paste.lisp.org/system-server/show/lisppaste/colorize i guess that it is 04:13:55 yeah it seems like it... although I noticed that in paste.lisp.org it only highlights the parens 04:14:21 might be the same library though 04:14:35 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:14:35 i like it better, your link is too fancy 04:14:59 lol 04:18:52 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:18:52 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-058-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:18:52 -!- elurin [n=user@85.104.214.8] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:18:52 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@9.pool85-49-172.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:18:52 -!- zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-70-239-213-111.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:18:52 -!- turbo24prg [n=turbo24p@mail.turbolent.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:18:52 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.163.184] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:18:52 -!- egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:18:52 -!- abend 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[lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:18:52 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:19:26 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-232-155.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-67-36-58-203.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 prip_ [n=_prip@host151-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 technik [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 TDT [n=TDT@143.108.177.207.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 nxt [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 phadthai [i=mmondor@66.11.161.166] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 cmatei [n=cmatei@85.186.180.45] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 luis [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 04:19:26 maxote [n=mevoypro@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 04:19:28 big macros are so terrifying. 04:19:52 Make smaller ones. 04:19:55 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-058-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:55 elurin [n=user@85.104.214.8] has joined #lisp 04:19:55 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@9.pool85-49-172.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 04:19:55 zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-70-239-213-111.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:55 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:19:55 turbo24prg [n=turbo24p@mail.turbolent.com] has joined #lisp 04:19:55 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.163.184] has joined #lisp 04:19:55 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 04:19:55 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 04:19:55 egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 04:19:55 abend [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:55 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 04:20:52 agreed. Just pointing out my irrational, uncontrollable fear of the macros in stassats`'s link. 04:21:28 yep, that code doesn't look nice 04:23:44 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@85.186.180.45] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 -!- maxote [n=mevoypro@84.79.67.254] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 -!- technik [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@66.11.161.166] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 -!- l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 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-!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 -!- nxt [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host151-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:44 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:23:56 hmm, that is quite the huge macro 04:25:17 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:25:17 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-058-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:25:17 -!- abend [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:25:17 -!- zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-70-239-213-111.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:25:17 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:25:17 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:25:17 -!- elurin [n=user@85.104.214.8] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:25:17 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.163.184] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:25:17 -!- turbo24prg [n=turbo24p@mail.turbolent.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:25:17 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:25:17 -!- egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:25:17 -!- abeaumont 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[n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-67-36-58-203.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 prip_ [n=_prip@host151-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 technik [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 TDT [n=TDT@143.108.177.207.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 nxt [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 phadthai [i=mmondor@66.11.161.166] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 cmatei [n=cmatei@85.186.180.45] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:26:27 Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has joined #lisp 04:26:27 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 04:26:27 luis [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 04:26:27 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 04:26:27 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 04:26:27 maxote [n=mevoypro@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 04:28:30 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-232-155.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 04:30:38 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:01 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:44 do you always have to (require :package) before I use it in (defpackage :foo (:package))? 04:35:37 you never have to (require :package) before using it in (defpackage :foo (:package)) 04:36:06 -!- l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has left #lisp 04:36:27 you meant (:use :package), and you meant will it be required automatically? 04:36:59 require, whose behavior can't be relied upon portably and should only be used for convenience at the repl, and regardless probably loads systems, which are distinct from packages 04:37:19 and sure, (:use :package) 04:37:37 Here, the subtle distinction between 'packages' and 'modules' raises its head. 04:37:40 hefner: assuming that modern lisps can do (require :asdf) is kinda nice :) 04:38:18 what's a modern lisp? I only use SBCL. 04:38:29 that's good enough for me :) 04:38:40 -!- elurin [n=user@85.104.214.8] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:38:43 sbcl can do that 04:39:14 aundro_ [n=aundro@152.182-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 04:39:18 CCL and as well 04:39:24 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:39:50 2 for 2. good enough for me. I was just pointing out that require's behavior is occasionally nice beyond the repl. 04:40:02 stassats`: yeah that's what i meant. the thing is i'm trying to (:use :cl-ho) but it cant find it, although i already have my *central-registry* with the correct path. 04:40:04 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:40:15 i had to (require :cl-who) in REPL and then it worked 04:40:51 yes, it will not to that automagically 04:41:05 i suggest you to use ASDF for your package as well 04:41:18 -!- aundro [n=aundro@34.210-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:41:24 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:41:30 felideon: http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html here is some hints 04:42:17 -!- beach [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 04:43:37 stassats`: thanks. 04:44:25 why does he use # in (:use #:cl) ? 04:44:55 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:44:58 it will not insert CL symbol into keyword package 04:46:21 and as long defpackage uses only symbol's name, it will work and will not pollute keyword package with unneeded symbols 04:48:08 i see 04:48:09 thanks 04:48:10 oh i didn't realize that 04:50:00 agnel [n=joel@122.166.120.150] has joined #lisp 04:50:28 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:25 thanks for the help. good night. 04:53:28 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:57:14 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@adsl-144.ucnet.uoc.gr] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:59:42 __death [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 05:00:47 -!- agnel [n=joel@122.166.120.150] has quit [K-lined] 05:01:19 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:55 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:13 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 05:04:48 -!- minustheben [n=minusthe@c-98-206-180-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:08:40 madnificent: herep 05:08:48 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-132-11.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:09:10 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-132-11.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:52 -!- _death [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:13:56 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:16 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.183.29] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:17:24 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.62.239] has joined #lisp 05:21:43 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1C99E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:28 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177158106.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:23:02 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1C9FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:49 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-232-155.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 05:37:16 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:38:14 -!- moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:40:44 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:41:40 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 05:45:36 =^.^= 05:45:58 nyaaa~ 05:51:51 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:56:18 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 05:57:26 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 06:07:00 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:13:42 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:20:02 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:20:09 beach [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 06:20:14 Good afternoon. 06:20:23 Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:20:27 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:22:17 mornin' beach 06:24:05 -!- CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:26:03 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:26:09 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@114-198-60-232.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:27:45 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:47 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.74.10] has joined #lisp 06:37:37 -!- dihymo [n=rares@97-124-39-40.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:39:18 dihymo [n=rares@75-174-221-118.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:52 maodun [n=stopgo@c-67-180-49-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:45 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 06:48:37 -!- cads_ [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:48:47 -!- azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:52:42 I'm relatively new to lisp. Before I spend large amounts of time trying to do something foolish - I should be able to compile a common lisp library into c with clisp and then access that library from lush, right? 06:53:11 clisp doesn't compile into C 06:53:21 oh 06:53:26 bummer 06:53:27 ECL does 06:53:34 GCL as well, no? 06:54:12 beach: Yes, but IIRC it was less concentrated on capability to embed resulting code inside another application 06:54:25 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:29 Yeah, sure. 06:54:57 oh, cool, looks like ecl will do the trick then. thanks! 06:55:18 holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:55 Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has joined #lisp 07:01:18 -!- chrisliaw [n=chris@219.93.36.231] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:01:23 -!- Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has left #lisp 07:03:05 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 07:04:48 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:05:26 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:37 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:12:12 -!- mjonsson [n=mjonsson@66-234-42-93.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:16:17 sohum [n=sohum@122.110.55.152] has joined #lisp 07:16:35 so how do I generate a keyword symbol within, say, a macro? 07:17:21 find already existent symbol in keyword package using find-symbol, or intern it using INTENRN to keyword package 07:17:39 INTERN, rather 07:18:51 no, as in I want the call (dostuff :input) to expand into something like (defpackage :common-stuff-input-more) 07:19:08 I need to generate the :common-stuff... somehow 07:19:23 -!- TDT [n=TDT@143.108.177.207.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:32 what i said 07:19:51 sohum: (intern (format nil "COMMON-STUFF-~A" the-symbol) :keyword) 07:19:52 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:19:56 intern accepts string 07:19:59 tihonov [n=kef@kefeer2.convex.ru] has joined #lisp 07:20:24 ooooh 07:20:33 ok, thanks! 07:23:32 sykopomp: T 07:23:43 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:04 sohum: two remarks: it is possible to tweak the reader so that it reads symbols as lowercase, so with such a modified reader, what i pasted does not work (Allegro has a "modern" mode that works like that). in general, creating symbols that way should be done sparingly as it makes it harder to identify the source code location where a symbol is defined. 07:25:02 *Aankhen``* quite likes ALEXANDRIA:SYMBOLICATE. 07:25:07 H4ns: does standard say something about such modifications? 07:25:53 stassats`: i think it does. someone else needs to comment about the details. 07:26:24 (alexandria:symbolicate 'common-stuff the-symbol 'more) 07:26:40 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 07:28:17 sohum: using alexandria as general utility library is good advice 07:28:18 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:41 good morning 07:29:54 naerbnic [n=naerbnic@cpe-98-148-116-245.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:30:56 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:31:30 any chance of getting setf cdr-assoc into alexandria? 07:33:41 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:34:18 Hi 07:34:26 hello lispers 07:34:31 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:34:32 hello MrSpec 07:34:33 hello kiuma 07:35:16 pierpa [n=user@host202-182-static.80-94-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:37:03 -!- pierpa [n=user@host202-182-static.80-94-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:38:32 -!- maodun [n=stopgo@c-67-180-49-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:39:13 -!- crod [n=cmell@p2042-ipbf705marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:40:48 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:58 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:41:11 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:30 zoe [n=zoe@c-67-166-12-161.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:12 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 07:42:20 -!- beach [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 07:42:27 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 07:42:39 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:42:48 Hi, I'm using SBCL and trying to make an array of bit-vectors, but whenever I set a bit in one element, it seems to be setting it for all elements. any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong? 07:43:02 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-24-248.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 07:43:18 zoe: paste your code 07:43:21 lisppaste: url 07:43:21 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 07:44:48 netaustin [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-128-2.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:53 or do you mean that you supply :initial-element parameter? 07:45:04 netaustin_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-156-149.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:14 Zoe pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73686 07:45:33 that is the relavent 07:45:44 stassats`, thats what I mean, yes 07:46:02 well, initial-_element_ not elements 07:46:31 hmm... I thought of that, and tried a loop to go through the entire thing and set each element to #31*0 07:46:37 same result 07:46:53 zoe: #31*0 is a literal 07:47:12 hmmm... does that mean there is only one instance of it in memory, period? 07:47:26 zoe: you need to allocate a fresh object for every array element. otherwise, your modifications will modify the one literal object that you specified. 07:47:29 zoe: correct. 07:47:34 ah, ok 07:47:47 the stuff I've been reading is not too clear on that 07:48:13 hmmm... to make a bit vector, it would be like (make-array 31 :element-type 'bit) 07:48:18 roughly? 07:48:39 yes, exactly 07:48:45 wonderful 07:49:18 and it works perfectly 07:49:21 thank you all very much ^_^ 07:49:31 -!- naerbnic [n=naerbnic@cpe-98-148-116-245.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 07:52:27 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:53:12 crod [n=cmell@p2042-ipbf705marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:54:10 You also have your usual bitwise operations if you want to pack small vectors into integers. 07:55:40 drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 07:56:31 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:56:49 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:57:26 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [No route to host] 07:57:35 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 07:57:38 -!- H4ns [n=hans@72-255-31-86.client.stsn.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:58:29 -!- dihymo [n=rares@75-174-221-118.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:58:29 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:26 Zhivago, I need to set individual bits, so I thought a bit-vector would be more useful for that 08:00:32 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:05:10 -!- drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:05:40 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-52-82-65-109-17.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:41 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-128-2.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:06:55 you can set individual bits of integer too, (let ((i 0)) (setf (ldb (byte 1 3) i) 1) (write i :base 2)) 08:07:55 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:08:02 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 08:08:47 hmmm, that might be something to do, but it seems like a bit of extra work, since I don't actually need most bitwise operations 08:08:47 rudi [n=rudi@z118l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:34 Just an option :) 08:10:02 I'm using it to emulate a memory bank of 4000 words, each with 5 6-bit bytes and a sign bit 08:10:02 Unless you have a zillion little bit vectors, I wouldn't worry about it. 08:10:20 Well, if that's all one vector ... sounds reasonable. 08:10:42 yeah, memory requirements are fixed at least 08:10:55 and I'm not going for performance, just doing it as an excercise 08:11:08 Or, you could use an array of 31 bit integers. 08:12:03 and use that whole mess every time I want to set the sign? 08:12:43 I actually kind of need -0 as a possible value, also, though 08:14:34 .... MIX? 08:14:53 p_l, yes, quite so ^_^ 08:15:06 -0 is dead give away :D 08:15:27 I have been working through volume 1, and thought that implementing MIX would be a neat way to get more comfortable with lisp 08:15:38 -0 is a pretty useful value ^_^ 08:15:49 MMIX is a much nicer cpu to work with 08:16:09 yeah, but my copy is the second edition, so I only have the spec for MIX 08:16:14 *p_l* is still waiting for new revision of TAOCP with MMIX examples 08:16:33 MMIX spec is downloadable from Knuth's webpage 08:16:52 oh, is it? 08:17:05 I only went there to look at his pipe organ ^_^ 08:17:23 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 08:17:40 well, it's incomplete, as it's only the part that is included in future revisions of TAOCP. _Full_ spec is in MMIXware book 08:18:09 ah, MIX is nice since the full spec fits in ~30 pages 08:18:36 I'm already struggling to buy textbooks though, I can't afford much else right now 08:19:04 Well, the additional specs are relating to things like MMU etc. and implementation of emulator 08:19:24 the stuff you need for user mode programs is in 30 pages :) 08:19:28 well, that would be a little pointless, since the goal is to make an emulator 08:19:47 it would be fun to translate the examples myself, though 08:22:05 what I can't find is description of SRI opcode, and few registers 08:22:40 the thing is, noone had written an emulator for a complete computer _architecture_ with MMIX as CPU 08:23:06 there's some simple stuff, but so far I haven't seen anything that supported for example I/O 08:23:16 hmmm... 08:23:37 I could do the CPU I think, although even the old one is tricky sometimes 08:23:48 but I/O and stuff is beyond me right now 08:25:08 I/O and the rest is the reason why I want to get MMIX book, so I could write an emulator for that 08:25:50 that would be really neat 08:26:06 and then have someone implement it in hw :3 08:26:31 lol, looking at it, it seemed like it would be nice to work in 08:26:32 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:36 but I just read the wiki page 08:27:08 256 instruction in all, Alpha-like memory coherence (aka none at all) 08:27:27 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 08:27:47 lol 08:28:03 thats beyond me. I've only done some assembly in ARM7 08:28:41 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 08:30:54 oh well, I need to head to bed 08:31:01 thanks for the help everyone 08:31:04 good night ^_^ 08:31:08 -!- zoe [n=zoe@c-67-166-12-161.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:31:09 -!- rudi [n=rudi@z118l194.static.ctm.net] has quit ["Client exciting"] 08:31:27 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:53 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:31:58 odin-set [i=4cae1cf9@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ad831a416d19cb85] has joined #lisp 08:32:05 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp91-122-100-90.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 08:32:09 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:33:40 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B0FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:35:29 good morning 08:35:59 -!- odin-set [i=4cae1cf9@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ad831a416d19cb85] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 08:38:33 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:39:32 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:40:03 mvilleneuve: good morning 08:40:04 H4ns [n=hans@72-255-31-86.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:06 binarin [n=user@gwn.alt1.ru] has joined #lisp 08:40:09 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:40:28 holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:30 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B0FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:40:52 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:41:48 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:48:21 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:50:57 beach [n=user@58.186.158.78] has joined #lisp 08:51:01 Good afternoon. 08:51:56 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.51] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:53:28 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:06:52 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@211.201.172.41] has joined #lisp 09:07:18 -!- karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 09:11:22 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:11:23 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-132.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:11:54 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:53 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B0FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:19:03 eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 09:19:25 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 09:19:52 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-132-11.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:20:53 ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has joined #lisp 09:20:59 -!- cavelife [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:21:45 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:25:30 pierre__thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-27-82-248-21-75.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:04 lispm [n=joswig@e177148131.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:27:11 beach` [n=user@58.186.158.222] has joined #lisp 09:27:45 Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has joined #lisp 09:28:04 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-52-82-65-109-17.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:30:10 -!- Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has left #lisp 09:31:02 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:31:24 Cryovat [i=isis@akuma.no] has joined #lisp 09:31:32 Hey 09:32:03 Does CLISP come with a library for doing simple http stuff? 09:32:19 I want to post a few strings to an url 09:32:52 Cryovat: I dunno about CLISP, but you can use drakma. 09:33:25 It is one (asdf-install:install :drakma) step away. 09:33:29 maodun [n=stopgo@c-67-180-49-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:10 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:37:03 Thanks 09:37:04 there is no package with name "ASDF-INSTALL" 09:37:06 Damn 09:37:10 The joys of shared hosting :( 09:39:04 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:41:55 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:43:17 <_8david> clisp doesn't ship with asdf-install. Either install asdf-install, then install drakma using asdf-install. Or download drakma yourself in the first place. 09:43:56 <_8david> wget && tar isn't that difficult compared to asdf-install 09:44:36 I'm just inexperienced 09:44:38 Used to sbcl 09:44:38 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.158.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:44:39 Thanks :) 09:46:42 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:47:09 clos question: is this possible (don't need to know how): Change the class of an object to a subclass of it (even if it actually isn't an object of the subclass). Assume there are no extra instance variables in the subclass... 09:47:29 <_8david> clhs change-class 09:47:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_chg_cl.htm 09:47:56 *madnificent* will mension lisp on his exam then :P 09:47:59 t 09:48:10 :) 09:49:12 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [K-lined] 09:50:01 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:50:06 isn't slot-value a method ? (CLHS says it's a function) 09:50:35 i'd like to specialize it 09:50:38 kiuma: does a method really exist in lisp? 09:51:07 <_8david> kiuma: go read AMOP! 09:51:13 madnificent, no! real question is "Can I spacialize slot-value"? 09:51:44 kiuma: standard generic function change-class -> it is a generic function, do with it what you like :) 09:51:45 methods exist, sure 09:51:48 _8david: I should do that too 09:51:49 <_8david> and go read source code others have already written for inspiration 09:51:53 SLOT-VALUE is a function 09:52:37 clos:SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS is a generic function 09:52:49 lispm, thanks 09:53:10 in some implementations under some circumstances SLOT-VALUE 'calls' SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS' 09:53:29 you can imagine that it makes slot-access NOT faster 09:53:32 <_8david> kiuma: do you realize how annoying your refusal to learn things on your own is? 09:53:36 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:54:58 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:54:58 _8david, I'm trying to learn a piece for a time. Sadly my project is getting really big and I often encouter new things 09:55:08 AMOP is a highly recommend read for anyone planning to write some CLOS code 09:55:26 AMOP shows also some good Lisp Style 09:55:31 <_8david> kiuma: you keep asking for our help, then ignore all suggestions we make. It's a waste of our time. 09:56:00 ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has joined #lisp 09:56:28 Grilinctus [n=Aankhen@122.162.193.215] has joined #lisp 09:58:08 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.74.10] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 10:00:08 _8david, I don't ignore them, I've the amop link open, I only was asking is there 'was a possibility to'. I'm not scared about reading, for me it's enought to be 'addressed to a section to look at'. For example as lispm said (SLOT-VALUE 'calls' SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS') and even more important for me 'you can imagine that it makes slot-access NOT faster' 10:00:13 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 10:01:56 s/amop link/mop link/ 10:02:36 remember that the book contains more material than the chapters that are online (mostly the reference part) 10:02:42 amazingdander [i=bite@gateway/tor/x-98e8e4aed282e981] has joined #lisp 10:02:57 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:03:04 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:03:05 part of it is also a small CLOS implementation 'closette' 10:03:51 which at least in German has a strange meaning 10:04:33 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:04:37 lispm, I know, I've the book at home (and read it a year ago), thanks anyway 10:05:04 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 10:05:10 Klosett = toilet 10:05:17 of course, if I don't do practice, I can forgot things 10:05:20 lol 10:05:21 lol 10:05:58 *forget 10:06:03 Isn't that more what is called W.C. in English? 10:06:26 water closet 10:06:36 yeah 10:06:43 klozet in polish :) 10:06:55 closet in french 10:08:31 #lisp - channel where you'll learn how to say 'toilet' in different languages :D 10:08:45 davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:51 Schleim = slime 10:09:16 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:10 toiretto (in japanese) 10:10:12 Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has joined #lisp 10:12:09 lispm, I don't understan a thing you said: "in some implementations under some circumstances SLOT-VALUE 'calls' SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS'" while in the specs of SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS it's written "It is called by slot-value" (that I thnik it means 'evry time'). Anyway I'd like to pecialize it for classes whose metaclass is what I've defined in my project 10:12:26 -!- Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has left #lisp 10:12:30 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:33 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:13:01 that's a 'spec', since it is not part of ANSI CL, implementations differ in the MOP somehow, BUT 10:13:06 s/thnik/think/ s/pecialize/specialize/ 10:13:22 -!- bdowning_ is now known as bdowning 10:13:29 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:13:36 since SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS makes things slower, some implementations that are providing it, don't enable it by default 10:13:43 for example in LispWorks 10:13:52 ah 10:13:54 p_l,  (toire) is way more common :) 10:15:43 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 10:15:56 xan: Yes, I know, but I didn't want to spam toilet translations anymore :P 10:16:33 (and my connection has weird problems with UTF-8) 10:18:30 eevar2 [n=jalla@225.89-10-30.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:20:54 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:22:36 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:24:30 -!- davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:24:43 a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has joined #lisp 10:24:45 davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:12 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:29:57 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:07 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 10:36:55 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:36:56 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 10:40:21 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 10:41:02 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:44:11 lambda [n=lambda@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:01 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:45:31 -!- crod [n=cmell@p2042-ipbf705marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:45:43 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:45:47 crod [n=cmell@p2042-ipbf705marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:45:50 chrisliaw [n=chris@219.93.36.231] has joined #lisp 10:47:23 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 10:48:06 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:50:56 -!- beach` is now known as beach 10:51:32 -!- sohum [n=sohum@122.110.55.152] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:57:08 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:16 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:21 schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4a325627084fa540] has joined #lisp 11:06:26 this is probably a crazy or dumb idea, but i want to try something unusual .. before i do though; does elephant or cl-perec or something provide a way to continuously "observe" a db table (or the results from sql queries "connected with" some db table(s))..? kinda make previous results from sql SELECT's automatically update on sql INSERT's to relevant tables? .. hm 11:07:05 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 11:07:11 -!- tihonov [n=kef@kefeer2.convex.ru] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:07:16 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:08:42 ..i can deal with automatic propagation of changes/state/data when i only have one row (one instance of a class mapped to the db) .. that's fine .. but that other dimension or whatever; multiple instances in a "container" possibly filtered/sorted and/or based on some search terms 11:14:01 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D4B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:09 that made no sense at all i guess .. i'll just try it x) 11:14:10 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 11:17:08 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-212-217-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:19:21 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:23:40 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:58 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:25:16 borism [n=boris@195-50-212-217-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:28:03 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:28:21 lnostdal: that surely sounds like what Kenny is trying to do with cells 11:28:21 lnostdal: that surely sounds like what Kenny is trying to do with cells 11:29:46 yeah, cells could be a part of this 11:30:29 -!- schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4a325627084fa540] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 11:30:53 schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ceae5f7cf1cbdf94] has joined #lisp 11:31:41 *schaueho* hits the webchat 11:31:41 *schaueho* hits the webchat 11:31:47 Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has joined #lisp 11:31:55 are you using IE? 11:32:01 schaueho: why do you say things twice? 11:32:33 lnostdal: fyi, we have ideas how to integrate the MOP of cl-perec and computed-class, but it brings up much more complicated questions than we want to delve into for now... 11:34:30 yeah, attila_lendvai .. thing is it kinda got to fall outside the "cellsy thing" wrt. only dealing with classes and slots .. it has got to deal with some sort of container abstraction (multiple instances) also .. i'm stuck on this; too many questions and issues yeah :} 11:38:02 -!- chrisliaw [n=chris@219.93.36.231] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:39:20 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.136.26] has joined #lisp 11:42:33 -!- crod [n=cmell@p2042-ipbf705marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:44:03 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:45:45 mega1 [n=mega@3e70d1a1.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:48:22 jsnell: here it is: did you omit printing the name of test and how it finished to stdout to keep with-test from interfering with the test body somehow? 11:49:04 I find having to hunt for which test hangs tiresome. 11:51:16 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.137.153] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:52:21 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.158.222] has left #lisp 11:52:28 Beeet [n=stathis@wifi139-50.pubaccess.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 11:54:58 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:56:27 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:57:27 crod [n=cmell@p2042-ipbf705marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:59:01 -!- Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:59:27 -!- kami-` is now known as kami- 12:01:58 Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has joined #lisp 12:02:38 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:38 hello 12:03:19 attila_lendvai: have you delivered the new version? 12:04:12 kami-: i should have had, but not yet. almost there though... 12:04:48 attila_lendvai: wish you good luck. 12:05:04 thanks! 12:05:26 blitz__ [n=julian@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:44 attila_lendvai: but may I pester you with a wui question? Running the demo app, I get a JS error: attachBorder not found. 12:06:33 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-104-57.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:06:51 kami-: i'm just recording the fix for that... that's the result of a kludge we applied to keep progressing 12:07:46 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 12:08:28 attila_lendvai: OK. Thank you. 12:14:36 attila_lendvai: are you using a new dojo version? 12:14:52 attila_lendvai: I read 'follow dojo' somewhere in the commit messages 12:15:35 kami-: i regularly do an svn up. this should change once we go in production. i'll probably revert to update certain tags and note that in the wui commit messages 12:15:56 ...or at least the date 12:16:58 -!- H4ns [n=hans@72-255-31-86.client.stsn.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:17:08 Hi people. Since in FLET the name bindings live only inside the body and not in the function definition itself, there is no way to have a recursive function with FLET right ? (whereas you can with LABEL) 12:17:17 Yes. 12:17:47 Well, you could pass the function to itself ... 12:18:42 azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 12:18:43 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:19:11 -!- Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has left #lisp 12:21:05 Ah thanks Zhivago, I didn't think of that. Not that I am going to do that; just to be aware of the possibilities. 12:22:54 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:23:12 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@9.pool85-49-172.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:25:28 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:26:30 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:26:45 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:26:53 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:24 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 12:32:10 vy` [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 12:32:46 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:33:57 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:34:38 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 12:37:16 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:42:18 vasa [n=vasa@mm-110-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 12:42:47 H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:43:03 awayekos [n=anekos@pl141.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:43:35 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 12:46:00 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 12:46:16 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 12:46:48 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:48:17 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:52:52 -!- Grilinctus is now known as Aankhen`` 12:54:02 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:54:45 -!- Maahes [n=Mihos@cpe-76-169-173-133.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:55:46 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 12:58:37 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:59:36 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:01:08 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 13:02:18 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:04:23 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Longjmp--FOR-SPEED!!!.aspx 13:04:37 sorry. wrong channel. :-/ 13:07:08 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:08:01 kami-` [n=user@p4FD39A16.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:12:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:13:26 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:26 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:14:07 rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-56-142.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:16:07 awayekos [n=anekos@pl141.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:16:22 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:45 TDT [n=TDT@67.1.63.69.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:02 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos_ 13:17:26 -!- davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:17:51 Dang the weather really is bad now, pipes in my home froze 13:18:06 I found icicles in my washing machine. 13:18:14 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:23 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:01 gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:33 yikes, yeah I haven't seen that yet here. I'm lucky I suppose that the pipe that froze is not in a horrible spot 13:20:36 e.g. outside 13:21:11 I have a feeling I know where it'd be, but I'd have to rip out some flooring to get to it. Turning up my heater to max right now and letting the house defrost - it's so warm now! 13:21:17 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 13:21:17 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 13:21:17 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 13:21:58 are all the bots hosted on the same server ? 13:22:30 Hmm, heh, yeah almost lookslike they are. 13:22:35 at least the ones in this room. 13:22:46 I can't say I know anything about specbox or minion though. 13:23:20 -!- blitz__ [n=julian@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:24:35 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD39A16.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:36 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:29 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl141.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:10 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:14 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:27:16 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:19 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:25 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 13:30:50 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 13:32:36 -!- opt9 [n=opt9@59.7.205.138] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:36:56 bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:00 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@wifi139-50.pubaccess.auth.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:39:26 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:41:18 LostMonarch [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:41:20 -!- crod [n=cmell@p2042-ipbf705marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:44:51 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:50:37 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:54:11 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:55:05 drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 13:55:18 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:22 -!- cooldude127 [n=user@r55h118.res.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:45 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:55:54 -!- drdo1 is now known as drdo 13:56:50 c|mell [n=cmell@p2042-ipbf705marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:57:01 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:54 blitz__ [n=julian@2002:8d4c:6e3:9:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 14:03:12 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:04:57 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45829.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:40 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:42 cooldude127 [n=user@lawn-128-61-22-169.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 14:09:08 -!- HET3 is now known as HET2 14:09:14 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:42 drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:15:04 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:19:40 sigh.. the joys of browsing at work: URL: http://bl0rg.net/~mgr/acclaim.html / Content rating rule: Web Reputation - Very Low 14:20:13 I just wanted to see some CL application's screenshots 14:22:28 <_3b> that's what ssh tunnels are for :p 14:23:00 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p2042-ipbf705marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:23:02 yeah, I'm just afraid I start abusing those and end up losing my ssh access :) 14:23:07 nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp124.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 14:23:15 c|mell [n=cmell@p1131-ipbf2509marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:23:36 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD39A16.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:24:17 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 14:25:00 -!- anekos_ [n=anekos@pl141.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:27:07 Hmm, clx_0.7.3.tar.gz is the newest I can find, which is from March 2006. Anyone know of a newer version before I try to make that one work with my current SBCL? 14:27:11 awayekos [n=anekos@pl141.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:27:36 blitz___ [n=julian@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:04 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:29:13 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:29:33 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:34 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 14:29:59 <_3b> aerique: i think the preferred source is : darcs get http://common-lisp.net/~crhodes/clx 14:30:43 -!- blitz__ [n=julian@2002:8d4c:6e3:9:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:58 -!- simplechat_ [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:31:00 _3b: I'll try that, thanks 14:31:40 -!- drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:33:11 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:34:13 _3b: that one works better, thanks :) 14:34:38 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 14:36:31 yay clx! 14:37:09 btw is anyone in here actually using mcclim with the cocoa beagle backend? cuz i can't make that work to save my life 14:37:39 clx works fine, so it's not a big big deal 14:38:13 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.136.192] has joined #lisp 14:40:13 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD39A16.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:42:41 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-110-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:42:47 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3beb.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:43:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:43:41 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.51] has joined #lisp 14:43:44 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:44:36 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:04 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:45:06 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:20 -!- a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:46:55 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 14:47:29 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:39 -!- blitz___ [n=julian@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:50:26 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:51:39 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:43 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B3E0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:50 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 14:54:27 blitz__ [n=julian@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:55 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:12 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 14:57:04 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@225.89-10-30.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:28 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:58:54 eevar2 [n=jalla@225.89-10-30.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:46 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 15:00:56 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has joined #lisp 15:04:42 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 15:04:48 Is there a way to encode an arbitrary character inside a string token ? 15:06:02 -!- cooldude127 [n=user@lawn-128-61-22-169.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:06:06 -!- netaustin_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-156-149.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 15:07:10 -!- blitz__ [n=julian@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:07:59 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:08:02 cooldude127 [n=user@lawn-128-61-22-169.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 15:08:06 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:05 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3beb.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:11:53 My question was incorrectly using "string token" instead of "double-quote string". But I think the answer would be "no" anyway. 15:13:04 <_3b> you can put any character you like inside the string, as long as you can convince the lisp to decode the source correctly, or use something like cl-interpol 15:14:54 _3b: thanks. cl-interpol is what I was looking for. 15:18:59 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:19:09 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:19:58 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:18 vasa [n=vasa@mm-225-81-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 15:23:57 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go home"] 15:31:05 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:33:03 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:35:47 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:02 drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:43:46 elurin [n=user@85.104.214.8] has joined #lisp 15:43:57 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has quit ["leaving"] 15:45:08 cooper [n=jockc@dsl-206-251-71-193.dynamic.linkline.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:39 anyone up for a question regarding ACL and slime use? 15:47:23 might be (: 15:47:43 only did it once :) 15:48:00 I use it regularly, but haven't touched my setup in a while 15:48:02 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:07 I've been using it for a long time too 15:48:12 I use F5 to start a slime 15:48:24 I used the suggested config from franz 15:48:36 it seems to not allow multiple sessions though 15:48:48 cooper: paste the config? 15:50:27 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:50:36 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 15:50:48 <_8david> what are multiple sessions? 15:51:11 _8david: just having more than one slime repl and lisp running 15:51:21 i believe that's what he meant 15:51:26 Cooper pasted "slime (acl) .emacs code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73697 15:51:49 http://paste.lisp.org/display/73697 15:52:12 cooper: well, i can see why it's not working 15:52:39 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:45 by starting slime from a shell command, it's running swank on the default port always 15:52:50 yes more than one repl 15:52:54 so multiple sessions won't happen 15:52:57 right 15:53:17 is there a better way to do it that works with ACL? 15:53:20 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-24-248.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:53:30 you should probably ignore franz and just have (setq inferior-lisp-program "c:/\blaesntoariestoarnsht") 15:53:36 cooper: is this on windows? 15:53:40 yes windows 15:53:45 without the -L C:/.slime.lisp part 15:53:46 if it is, then you might be out of luck /-: 15:54:06 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@225.89-10-30.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:54:12 maybe i'll try to setup a .slime.list for a few different ports 15:54:13 i only tried it on mac os x 15:54:21 well i need to go, bbl 15:54:22 afaict, slime depends on being able to send commands to the inferior lisp's stdin for starting swank 15:54:29 and that is a no-go on windows 15:54:52 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:55:25 buuuut... maybe you could have a shell script that writes the lisp commands to a temporary file that mlisp or alisp can load via -L 15:55:29 haven't done that yet, though 15:55:59 antifuchs: How it is a nogo? 15:56:00 you could certainly start swank manually, then connect 15:56:25 I recall popen() working on win32 15:56:45 p_l: acl starts with an application window on windows. if you can make it accept commands from stdin, that is certainly nice and I'd like to know about it 15:57:17 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:57:24 I'll try to get it working.. 15:57:25 thanks 15:57:34 I just recall hoop-jumping in an older library that builds using acl on windows. that uses the shell script trick, which is not so neat (: 15:57:41 oh, so it's the case of the interpreter doing some crazy stuff 15:58:03 antifuchs: Does it accept normal keyboard input? 15:58:14 in the windows application window, sure 15:58:45 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:55 antifuchs: Then the thing is to get few WinAPI calls and you could make a bridge 15:59:05 eek 15:59:06 scary 15:59:11 yeah (: 15:59:44 may be worth a try, but then I tend to avoid windows programming whenever i can (: 15:59:51 but it certainly works. Though shell script is easier and more senible 16:00:04 -!- cooper [n=jockc@dsl-206-251-71-193.dynamic.linkline.com] has quit [] 16:00:40 there isn't any way to specify input source to acl? 16:00:43 -!- cooldude127 [n=user@lawn-128-61-22-169.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:57 cooldude127 [n=user@lawn-128-61-22-169.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 16:00:57 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:01:25 you could tell it to open a named pipe and write code that would start swank to it... 16:02:06 -!- vy` [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:05:26 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:05:36 Greetings! 16:05:47 -!- HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:05:53 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 16:06:00 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-94.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:06:03 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 16:07:04 What is a better name for a function that establishes that 2 floating point values are "equal", FLOAT-EQUAL -or- EQUAL-FLOAT? 16:07:36 It's always the trivial questions that I waste the most time on. I get hung up on aesthetics. 16:07:39 <__death> the former is more consistent with CL naming convention 16:08:13 __death: Yeah, that's what I think is most important, thanks. 16:08:19 APPROXIMATELY-EQUAL ? 16:08:22 willb [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:08:35 :-) SORT-OF-EQUAL ? 16:08:44 MAYBE-EQUAL? 16:08:53 COULD-BE-EQUAL ? 16:09:12 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp124.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:10:02 tmh: PSEUDO-EQUAL-CAREFUL-NOW-MY-EPSILON-MIGHTNT-SUIT-YOUR-VALUES ;) 16:10:15 *tmh* chuckles 16:10:17 blitz__ [n=julian@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:19 -!- blitz__ [n=julian@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:10:40 rsynnott: okay, I have an optional value for supplying epsilon, thank you very much. 16:10:51 <__death> epsilon? I thought it works with ulps! 16:11:40 __death: Nope, there might be enough operations to get the value that the ulps start to build up. 16:11:52 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 16:13:16 So, FLOAT-EQUAL it is. 16:13:25 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2EA39.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:50 -!- cmatei__ [n=cmatei@vimes.rndsoft.ro] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:15:41 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:18:25 -!- __death is now known as _death 16:19:29 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:19:39 Heh, I should have looked through sting functions more, there is a STRING-EQUAL. That would have settled it. 16:20:08 josemanuel [n=josemanu@207.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:20:15 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-29.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:20:52 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:20:53 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 16:22:51 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:18 lol 16:26:04 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 16:28:19 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:29:16 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:29:37 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:31:17 -!- schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ceae5f7cf1cbdf94] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:32:10 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:33:44 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.51] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:34:52 tmh: I use ALMOST-EQUAL 16:36:47 -!- drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:36:49 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:37:22 tcr1 [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:40:10 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.51] has joined #lisp 16:40:19 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 16:42:21 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 16:42:26 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 16:43:33 If CL was a proper language, one coule use "CLOSE" relying on the system to understand that the difference in pronunciation meant that this was a different term than, well, "CLOSE" 16:44:11 (close 1.0 (+ 1.0 (/ epsilon 2))) -> T 16:44:21 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:44:29 it really sucks that you can't do that 16:44:33 we need more namespaces 16:47:26 CLOSEP 16:47:28 More umlauts. 16:48:25 what, epsilon wasn't close enough? 16:48:39 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 16:49:01 well it;s on the border but half it is close enough 16:49:58 Xof: that is, annoyingly, a better name. 16:50:05 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:26 I have a CLOSE-ENOUGH in my current project 16:50:41 should have a -P 16:50:42 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit ["leaving"] 16:50:45 i think i've used that one too 16:51:45 joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 16:52:25 -!- joga_ is now known as joga 16:52:54 tfb: ok, technically I have a close_enough() in my current project 16:52:56 netaustin [n=austinsm@173-113-65-112.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:03 bool close_enough() that is 16:54:40 *tfb* is thinking that Xof cluld not possibly be using a language with a syntax like that ... 16:59:21 tfb_ [n=tfb@212.183.134.210] has joined #lisp 17:00:21 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.136.192] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:00:23 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:00:35 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 17:01:04 willb1 [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:02:02 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p1131-ipbf2509marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:02:22 -!- HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:47 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@97.pool85-49-127.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:04:12 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:07:46 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-17-239.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:08:34 -!- cooldude127 [n=user@lawn-128-61-22-169.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:24 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:09:28 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:10:55 willb [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:13:02 user___ [n=user@p54924BFE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:13 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:33 grrrr. 17:14:08 luis, fe*ix are you here? 17:14:15 bighouse [n=bighouse@bas1-montreal42-1177928173.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:15:56 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [No route to host] 17:16:12 *attila_lendvai* pokes fe[nl]ix to ring his chat client... 17:17:36 attila_lendvai, do you have physical access to fe*ix? 17:17:59 *Fare* wants to discuss the use of pathnames in osicat 17:18:07 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:37 c|mell [n=cmell@p1131-ipbf2509marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:18:42 at some level, I'd like to be able to work with no translation layer whatsoever between the system and I. 17:18:48 Fare: heh, nope. he's a few countries away, although i invited him to drop in when going home through hungary... 17:18:53 i.e. no lisp "pathnames" 17:18:58 sinistral_ [n=mnd@dsl-245-165-196.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:18:58 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 17:19:23 attila_lendvai, he's also invited to drop in when going home through hungary, though that will be quite a detour. 17:21:16 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:25 *Fare* believes abstraction inversions are evil. 17:22:45 what's an abstraction inversion ? 17:22:53 *Fare* is appalled that he can't construct a pathname before he knows whether something is a directory or file 17:23:15 fe[nl]ix, putting the cart before the horse 17:23:55 as in, implementing filesystem access in terms of lisp semi-abstract pathnames. 17:24:51 what's wrong with it ? I see problems with CL pathnames, but not with the concept of pathnames in general 17:24:52 or, re-implementing something low-level in terms of something high-level, in general 17:25:09 fe[nl]ix, I'm not against "pathnames in general" 17:25:21 just against CL pathnames. 17:25:43 e.g. -- the system deals with bytes, but CL pathnames want characters. 17:26:01 the system doesn't interpret names and types, but CL pathnames do 17:26:11 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:26:39 the system doesn't distinguish between directories and files at the name level, but CL pathnames do 17:26:51 (and what if a name changes in the middle?) 17:26:51 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@173-113-65-112.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Success] 17:27:22 all in all, CL pathnames only add a hoop to hop between what I want to do and what I have to do. 17:28:00 and what a hoop it is! 17:28:15 which is all fine when what I want to do is e.g. call LOAD (then what I need is a function to translate from native path to pathname). 17:28:32 but expressing a directory search in terms of CL pathnames is backasswards. 17:29:08 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:29:49 it's spending most of the time going back and forth between the two -- yuck. 17:29:57 (most of the CODING time, too) 17:30:36 in conclusion -- I want to write a library to deal with "native pathnamestrings" or whatever the name should be. 17:31:03 might not even be strings, for all I know. 17:31:25 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:31:37 probably shouldn't be, lest CL implementors sabotage you with unicode do-goodery 17:31:53 demmeln [i=demmeln@atradig111.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:07 well, there should be some reasonably easy way to go from strings to bytes and the other way around. 17:32:52 but names should be kept in their canonical form as C strings of bytes (or whatever it is on that system) 17:33:08 (if it's genera, then OK for CL pathnames) 17:34:12 (do Mac enforce some UTF-8 with canonicalization?) 17:34:18 I see no problem with distinguishing between directories and files 17:34:18 the two are not interchangeable 17:34:39 fe[nl]ix, names are interchangeable 17:34:46 touch foo ; rm foo ; mkdir foo 17:34:47 an application "knows" whether it wants to open a file and read some data or list a directory 17:35:18 is foo the name of a file or directory? it depends -- I don't want to make an early choice before I even know -- I might be resolving symlinks, even! 17:35:33 fe[nl]ix, not if the application is exploring the filesystem. 17:36:40 not if the application is intercepting filesystem accesses by some other programs. 17:37:07 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38:15 how do I even name the symlink that I'm watching, if it's currently dangling to neither file nor directory? 17:39:20 Fare: would you consider a reasonable design to be that the hypothetical lisp spec says nothing about the structure of pathnames, but does define tools to do certain operations on them (ie "open file" "take path X and get path to file inside directory X" etc.)? Or do you reject entirely the notion of cross-platform filesystem operations? 17:39:56 That is, is the fault in having an abstraction which does not necessarily fit the underlying platform, or is it in an overly-specific abstraction? 17:41:23 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-44.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:41:43 kpreid, perhaps it is OK. But that is not how a system access library should work. 17:42:08 I disagree 17:42:17 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:42:23 in a way, all the problems with logical pathnames exist with CL pathnames, with the problems being just as annoying but in a less glaring way. 17:43:00 I think that it's wrong to abstract the OS away from the user, least you commit to doing it right 17:43:04 as 17:43:20 in, reimplementing the whole OS (and maintaining it so it doesn't bitrot) 17:43:31 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 17:43:38 brb 17:45:17 drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:49:13 Fare: Some file systems do not deal with bytes for file names. If I'm remembering correctly, the Mac uses UTF-16 or something similar for various flavors of HTFS. 17:49:30 Guest53748: UTF-8, with a particular normalization 17:49:56 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 17:50:26 me, I think it would be good to provide limited abstractions (example: "there exist pathname objects. you can open them for reading, and you can convert strings into them") and encourage effort toward cross-implementation standards for "the API for " 17:50:46 MacOS X uses classical Unix pathnames, that is names are bytestrings that are not supposed to contain '/' 17:50:57 kpreid: Thanks. I can have 2 file systems mounted, each with different file name rules ... 17:51:21 so you can write portable programs to the mostly-common-subset and you can write programs which work on (unix|windows|...) without regard to language implementation. But CL didn't go that way, of course 17:51:22 Guest53748: OS is requeired to do the support, methinks 17:52:33 Well, pathnames during the time they wrote the spec were vastly more different 17:53:42 p_l: What happens with "cp /bsd/not_legal_utf8-name /htfs/" ? cp hands the OS a file name that's illegal on the HTFS volume. 17:54:35 Guest53748: Nothing? AFAIK HFS+ stores filenames as standard bytestrings, if not, it will complain about create() failing 17:54:38 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 17:54:48 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp071.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 17:54:54 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:55:15 => error_level > 0 17:55:55 If I recall correctly, the create fails. 17:56:09 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:56:18 that's what it should do in this case 17:56:21 ... which means that it's not doing "classical Unix pathnames". 17:57:06 except that illegal UTF-8 would probably mean that its illegal on FFS too :-) 17:57:21 and that you wouldn't be able to access it in first place 17:57:41 as open() will fail at name resolution level 17:58:03 What is FFS? 17:58:08 antoni [n=antoni@21.pool85-53-6.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:58:20 Fast File System, also known as Unix File System aka UFS 17:58:30 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:58:47 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.210] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:58:54 biggest bag of similar-yet-incompatible filesystems ever 17:59:07 BSD file system allows anything in file names, except a zero byte and '/'. 17:59:50 And UTF-8 to fail would require you to put a null byte 18:00:11 otherwise the system probably wouldn't notice 18:00:15 ... which by the way caused problems for me last weekend. I was trying to read an ISO 9660 CDROM with slashes in the file names on a Linux box. 18:00:16 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:39 the normalization is done at a different level, not in the system itself 18:00:59 perhaps CL implementations can improve the situation by allowing byte arrays as pathname designators 18:01:04 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:01:07 p_l: hm? in utf-8 e.g. #x80 is illegal and #xB0 is illegal by itself 18:01:10 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:14 I think that's right. The OS should deal with octets and the applications should handle the character encodings for presentation. 18:01:15 hmmm... I'm not sure if ISO9660 names with slashes in them are correct 18:01:26 kpreid: System won't recognize it 18:01:29 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:50 p_l: there are sequences which are illegal utf-8 but are accepted by UFS etc. 18:02:00 as OS X VFS works on bytestrings (it's BSD after all) 18:02:22 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 18:02:25 kpreid: You'll get errors on application side when they try to display it etc. 18:02:59 sure, but open() isn't going to fail like you suggested 18:03:02 in fact, I get them quite often :P 18:03:11 "Jan 16 11:04:27 navi ntfs-3g[2358]: Skipping unrepresentable filename (inode 39780): Invalid or incomplete multibyte or wide character" 18:03:23 but that's ntfs, not ufs 18:03:40 but that's due to additional charset recoding enabled in the driver 18:03:57 (as it happens I am in favor of pathnames being text, not bytes, but they *aren't*) 18:03:59 (in unix-as-it-is) 18:04:16 and there's a certain reason why is it so :) 18:04:28 p_l: go on 18:04:55 simplicity was main reason behind all Unix interfaces (the old ones at least) 18:06:00 the original design assumed that you should only need open(), read(), write(), close(), fork(), exit(), kill() and few other syscalls for everything 18:06:40 -!- amazingdander [i=bite@gateway/tor/x-98e8e4aed282e981] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:53 Plan 9 later changed file namespaces to be UTF-8 only 18:07:31 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:07:41 cooldude127 [n=user@lawn-128-61-123-2.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 18:07:47 after all, Unix was designed to run on machine were you only had somewhere around 32k of kernel space 18:08:06 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.51] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:09:00 p_l: note, at the time, you could have seperate instruction and data spaces, for a whopping 128k of memory available for your process! 18:09:15 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:34 H4ns: Not on PDP-11 iirc 18:09:54 p_l: sure, separate i and d spaces were a feature of certain pdp-11's 18:10:26 I think that it was not the case of the one they were using 18:10:30 p_l: it was a 16 bit machine, and i/d separation was a cheap trick to squeeze in more address space. 18:10:37 as they had one of the simplest ones 18:10:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:11:18 p_l: maybe. i've worked on machines running system III that had that memory model, albeit on a 68000 18:11:39 H4ns: I prefer how old Ataris used a simple MMU for that (8-bit arithmetic and 16-bit memory space) 18:12:13 oh the joy! running a chat program properly required two processes that signalled each other, one reading from the terminal, one from the pipe to the chat server. 18:12:36 lol 18:12:47 that sounds a lot like our glorious concurrency-oriented future 18:12:55 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:56 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 18:13:19 yeah 18:14:10 nothing wrong with that. trouble starts when you stretch the model too far. both bsd with the socket api as well as system V with their inane ipc system contributed a lot to the demise of unix' beauty 18:14:30 I agree 18:14:33 -!- drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:14:44 it was propably also a bad idea to give unix into the hands of people who require non-ascii text. 18:14:44 Unfortunately Research Unix didn't get released at all 18:14:59 -!- cooldude127 [n=user@lawn-128-61-123-2.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:15:06 Oh, that was the whole idea behind UTF-8 18:15:30 what had gone wrong is some of the locale libraries... 18:15:34 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:44 p_l: i think utf-8 has nothing to do with unix. it is just a compact encoding that trades cpu time for space efficiency. 18:15:49 I don't have any troubles with non-ascii text on Unix 18:16:18 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:16:32 H4ns: Except that it was designed to combat Unix's problems with internationalization (or to be exact, in the process of that) 18:16:50 p_l: do you have any reference for that claim? 18:17:08 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 18:17:32 H4ns: UTF-8 was designed overnight during Plan9 team's struggle with internationalization 18:17:55 some confused people :) 18:18:15 ah, i'm reading rob pike's email on that topic. http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/utf-8-history.txt 18:18:36 AFAIK they later explained the thing over the phone to POSIX comittee so that original UTF-8 got scrapped :D 18:19:10 davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:31 utf-8 was designed to be backward compatible with ascii and to have sensible semantics for resynchronizing a corrupt stream. 18:19:43 minustheben [n=minusthe@c-98-206-180-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:44 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:14 ucs was unix's attempt to support internationalization. 18:20:34 sorry, I mean euc 18:20:46 so you have euc-jp, euc-ko, euc- ... 18:21:03 True but it doesn't change the fact that the problem they had at hand for which they attempted the fix was internationalization in as simple form as possible 18:21:26 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.193.215] has quit [" lowercase strings need the protection of the surrounding bars until they grow up to be uppercase strings"] 18:21:26 Anyway, UTF-8 is nice and simple, except when it's not 18:21:46 utf-8 doesn't give you internationalization. 18:22:05 the euc encodings were actually pretty good -- the reason people use utf-8 is because of unicode. 18:22:34 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-56-142.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:41 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@59-34-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:22:45 Zhivago: International strings, if you want. I don't really want more than the ability to use all kinds of symbols in my strings 18:23:27 And UTF-8 does that nicely, better than ISO-2022 (or whatever it was) and allows mixing unlike EUC 18:23:43 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:23:47 If you mean 'less efficiently', perhaps. 18:24:07 utf-8 is pretty bloated for many languages. 18:24:34 Indic scripts pay about 300% of what they should. 18:24:39 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 18:24:45 kami-``` [n=user@p4FD39C7D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:48 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD39A16.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:24:56 It's all a compromise -- utf-8 just has a lot of inertia, and disk is cheap 18:25:38 But it allows you to pick at any place without problems, while switching in ISO-2022 requires you to first get the switching sequence, while EUC doesn't allow mixing of different charsets and UCS-2 still requires "pairs" 18:26:53 So at least for filenames, it's the best I have (I currently need support for several languages on my disks) 18:27:47 interesting that NT has the weirdest filenames of all mainstream OSes 18:28:11 You mean 'compared with unix derivatives'? 18:28:55 (DOS 8.3 in local encoding, UCS-2 with some normalization without certain characters, POSIX which are bytestrings without "\" or "/") 18:29:03 hi. is it possible to use dynamically scoped variables within macros? for example, i have a macro which binds a special variable (globally defined with defvar) to a value and in the body of the macrocall i use another macro which then should be able to get the value bound by the outer macro. is this possible? it doesnt seem to work for me somehow and i'm wondering if this is possible at all 18:29:08 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-225-81-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:29:28 Zhivago: Well, it's the only non-Unix derivative that is mainstream :D 18:29:36 bakkdoor: Sure, but you might want to consider the point at which the macro runs ... 18:29:44 bakkdoor, special variables are wrong; you actually want macro bindings, and you will need to use &ENVIRONMENT. But perhaps it would be better, before anyone answers with more detail, for you to explain your problem in more detail. 18:29:44 blx [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:29:56 bakkdoor: Also be careful to distinguish between the macro running and the code it produces. 18:30:33 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:30:35 Riastradh: alright i'll look up macro bindings 18:30:46 bakkdoor: Note that a macro does not call the macros expanded within it ... 18:30:58 No, bakkdoor: you should explain your problem more precisely. 18:31:01 Zhivago: hm true. 18:31:15 anyone know if sbcl can handle reatime threads through cffi callbacks? i just get 'cannot lock down memory for RT thread (Cannot allocate memory)' 18:31:32 and segfault 18:31:59 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-58-237.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:06 Hello all. 18:32:42 -!- H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:32:56 Riastradh: ok.. i basically want this: i have a macro which when called returns code with a let expression in which i bind a special variable, and the body of the macro goes into that let expression. in the body i call another macro that then returns code that reads the special variable and i want it to read the value that it was bound to in the outer let expression returned by the first macro 18:33:17 bakk: You do not call macros :) 18:33:25 good afternoon nyef 18:33:28 ...no, that's still being vague. What is the problem you are actually trying to solve, which you believe macros and special variables to be a subproblem of? 18:33:35 Zhivago: well ok, when i use it then. :) 18:33:39 bakk: Macros get expanded. 18:33:48 bakkdoor: macros are expanded, function are called 18:33:58 alright, sorry, wrong term :) 18:33:59 bakk: Think about when they get expanded. 18:34:12 bakk: This is critical to understanding your problem. 18:36:39 -!- kidd [n=kidd@80.31.136.251] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 18:36:55 bakkdoor pasted "macro expansion & special variables" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73703 18:37:27 -!- antoni [n=antoni@21.pool85-53-6.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:37:45 bakkdor: Ok, that special is bound when the generated code runs ... 18:38:10 bakkdoor: Which is after the macros there are all expanded. 18:39:11 Zhivago: yeah which is what i want. i want to expand into code that basically has a let binding the special vars and does something with them. but somehow the expansion of the second macro doesn't seem to have the correct binding 18:39:13 Also, I hope you've declared those as specials somewhere. 18:39:31 Since the stars don't mean anything themselves. 18:39:46 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:39:58 ah crap i know the problem lol 18:40:05 nevermind -_- 18:40:17 The case of the ordinary special. 18:41:44 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41:51 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:43:45 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:44:34 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:44 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:50:55 pokey19 [n=dmg@DEE90.VPN.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 18:51:00 rme [n=rme@pool-68-238-2-212.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:30 amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:44 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 18:54:08 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:30 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 18:54:49 drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:56:15 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:09 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:47 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-4d78d9728fbc6925] has joined #lisp 19:03:30 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:06:27 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:15 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:08:45 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:10:27 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:53 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@207.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:11:23 nimrody [n=Nimrod@bzq-79-176-106-205.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:33 #join clojure 19:11:59 -!- blx [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has left #lisp 19:13:20 No! 19:13:54 cods [n=cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:22 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:15:28 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 19:15:39 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 19:16:56 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:35 -!- nimrody [n=Nimrod@bzq-79-176-106-205.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:18:58 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:19:38 lispasdf [n=hara@wireless-169-235-43-107.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 19:20:14 -!- gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:20:14 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:24 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:24 -!- lispasdf is now known as DeusExPikachu 19:29:16 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:29:18 dfox_ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:29:41 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:30:32 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p1131-ipbf2509marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:32 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.123.236] has joined #lisp 19:32:23 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx07476.centeva.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:51 -!- bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:42 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:34:52 antoni [n=antoni@98.pool85-53-25.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:37:34 brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:38:04 bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:14 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-17-239.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [] 19:39:19 sidewinder128 [n=chatzill@nttkyo907064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:40:24 -!- sidewinder128 [n=chatzill@nttkyo907064.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has left #lisp 19:40:45 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:52:00 Beeet [n=stathis@athedsl-4394804.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:52:01 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:08 H4ns [n=hans@h-66-167-13-153.cmbrmaor.covad.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:30 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=hara@wireless-169-235-43-107.ucr.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:53:52 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-43-107.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 19:58:35 -!- drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:43 -!- sinistral_ [n=mnd@dsl-245-165-196.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [] 20:00:19 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:10:13 Does anyone know if SBCL are working on multicore support? Like Clojure? 20:10:29 hah, what? 20:10:33 <_3b> it supports OS threads on a number of platforms, does that count? 20:10:57 hi 20:11:06 is this standard compliant: (funcall '(lambda () 'a)) 20:11:27 demmeln: Yes. It throws a standard-compliant error. 20:11:33 funcalling cons cells that happen to be a lambda function 20:11:42 (of course, SBCL on one core would no doubt murder clojure even on eight cores) 20:11:46 nyef: it doesnt on acl 20:12:00 Really? 20:12:15 hefner: Agreed. 20:12:15 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:12:29 Yeah, SBCL bitches "not (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL)". 20:12:31 nyef: i was astonished too 20:12:46 _8david: here? 20:13:05 clhs funcall 20:13:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm 20:13:36 demmeln: It kind of was allowed in cltl1 20:14:20 Damn Steele for writing that confusing book 20:14:29 the modern equivalent is (funcall (coerce '(lambda ...) 'function) ...), although if that's what you think you want, I doubt it's appropriate for whatever you're trying 20:14:52 -!- olaugh [n=jolaughl@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:16:04 dysinger_ [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:11 Any writings of sbcl and concurrency? 20:16:42 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:17:14 <_3b> tcr1: don't those behave differently if the lambda has free variables? 20:17:38 brill: you get the usual basic shared memory primitives (make-thread, mutex, condition queue, CAS). 20:17:56 <_3b> tcr1: oops, i misread, nevermind 20:18:05 brill: sbcl docs have some information about native threading + there are few libraries (bordeaux-threads for example) to get multiplatform compatibility 20:18:24 demmeln: You aren't Lenz are you? 20:18:36 tcr1: What i want to do is use an sexp (lambda expression) provided by the user and filter some data with it 20:18:39 closures make multicore fun 20:18:54 tcr1: i don't know no Lenz 20:19:02 demmeln: Have you considered the use of COMPILE? 20:19:04 tcr1: who is he? :) 20:19:08 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:21 Or, for that matter, EVAL? 20:19:26 *p_l* is tired of everyone now calling parallel processing "multicore support" 20:19:34 demmeln: The Lisp programmer I know at the Radig chair is Piotr, and Lenz (I think) 20:19:46 programmers 20:20:20 demmeln: Why do you users provide a lambda expression and no actual function? 20:20:22 p_l: you prefer "SMP"? 20:20:45 funny, I wished I'd said "SMP" as soon as I hit enter 20:20:47 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@bas1-montreal42-1177928173.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 20:20:53 tcr1: i considered eval, but i need to pass a locally bound parameter 20:20:58 p_l: Yeah. But parallel processing doesn't really cover the issue at hand. 20:21:33 tcr1: ah ok i know Piotr and Lorenz (=Lenz?) 20:21:45 demmeln: Ah yeah, Lorenz. 20:21:52 So, if SMP is where you have two of the same sort of CPU core, is AMP different CPU types or merely different distribution of responsibilities? 20:21:56 demmeln: You're student working for the chair? 20:22:23 <_3b> nyef: seems like either or both would fit 20:22:23 tcr1: yeah, i was at the last munich lisp meeting 20:22:24 demmeln: I think I know you. They had some student with them at my Slime talk 20:22:32 tcr1: right 20:23:05 tcr1: i forgot "tcr" was you ;) 20:23:05 Phoodus: I have some multicore machines and only one of them is SMP :P 20:23:08 nyef: also, SMP kind of implies a shared memory space too, which technically doesn't have anything to do with "symmetric" 20:23:22 SMP = shared memory, everything symmetric 20:23:45 demmeln: You can do (eval `(lambda (x) (let ((var ,var)) ...))), but why don't you get a function from your users? 20:23:46 i.e. basically implies that whatever core you run on, everything is the same 20:23:53 <_3b> p_l: except the instruction streams :) 20:23:58 demmeln: (That's a backquote not a quote in front of the (lambda ...) 20:24:10 _3b: I mean the environment :) 20:24:33 *p_l* prefers NUMA systems, especially those without automatic memory coherence 20:24:45 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-c8f7d20aaf2c8dc6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:25:02 *_3b* likes data parallel. 20:25:21 *Phoodus* wishes GPGPU "threads" didn't share branch prediction 20:25:32 demmeln: Anyway, I'm afk for some time. Greet both of them from me. 20:26:13 Cray makes nice parallel systems :3 20:26:21 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 20:26:50 so does SiCortes :) 20:26:53 SiCortex 20:27:19 iwannalog [n=IWannaLo@ivr94-1-82-67-244-5.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:30 some of the stuff that is now used in crays will be in next gen AMD cpus 20:27:56 lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:28:15 tcr1: fair enough 20:28:19 tcr: i will 20:28:48 rsynnott: that slime issue was actually an qemu+linux-2.6.18+sbcl-1.0.24(sb-bsd-sockes+sb-threads) issue. 20:28:49 <_3b> bah... someone write me a testing lib that doesn't require writing/maintaining test results 20:28:54 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:58 tcr: for the record i'm using clim so i'm not sure i can take functional input 20:29:24 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 20:29:31 HI, I rode texts on Internet which explain that Macro are a very powerfull tool, so i investigate but I didn't find something which explain macro power without stupid examples that can't be done without macro. Did you have a good reference ? 20:30:11 <_3b> iwannalog: have you looked at iterate or series? 20:30:23 Everything can be done without macros. That's the whole point of turing-completeness. 20:30:26 iwannalog: read "on lisp" 20:30:43 _3b: no what is it 20:31:04 nyef: I know but i'm looking for thing easy to do only with macros 20:31:25 H4ns: thx for the reference 20:31:27 minion: tell iwannalog about series 20:31:28 iwannalog: have a look at series: Series is a Library for operating on series, a data structure similar to a sequence. http://www.cliki.net/series 20:32:01 speaking of which, I got an sbcl-optimized version of series working yesterday 20:32:06 _3b: I was at Jaoo last year. A speaker had developed a test system, that generated massive tests of an ericsson protocol. It was done in erlang. 20:32:08 can't i tell minion to tell someone something when he comes back? 20:32:11 iwannalog: What do you mean with "only doable with macros"? 20:32:54 drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:32:54 demmeln: "minion: memo for tcr: Hi tcr!" 20:32:54 by example create a function which add the number in a list is very easy in Haskell, hard in OCaml (and don't think about C) 20:33:01 <_3b> brill: don't care to o much about generating tests, i just think typing in the results by hand is silly :) 20:33:04 tcr: ah cool 20:33:11 tcr: (let ((foo '(lambda (x) x)) 20:33:11 (bar 'a)) 20:33:11 (eval `(funcall ,foo ',bar))) 20:33:26 tcr is that what you meant? 20:33:53 demmeln: No it's not. I'd suggest to go to Lorenz tomorrow and ask him for help. 20:34:16 iwannalog: here's a nice simple example 20:34:32 say you want to do something with a return value only if it's not nil 20:34:33 _3b: Agreed. I hate tests. One have a tendency to only cover parts of the system. But this speaker had it all done automatically. He found errors in the protocol no-one has thought of testing. 20:34:33 _3b: I remember that xcb uses a definition of behaviour to automatically generate both the code and tests for it 20:34:35 iwannalog: I assume you don't know much Lisp? 20:34:52 tcr: a very little 20:34:54 (let ((val (some-func))) (when val (do-stuff-with val))) 20:34:58 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-68-238-2-212.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:35:13 <_3b> p_l: yeah, that would be ncie if i had nicely specified behavior :) 20:35:14 or, using a macro, you could do (sym-when val (some-func) (do-stuff-with val)) 20:35:27 <_8david> tcr: hi 20:35:29 where sym-when expands to the 'let' clause that binds that symbol 20:35:57 tcr: he din't quite know and suggested to stick with (funcall '(lambda () ...)) for now. But he's not really here atm 20:36:03 Phoodus: can't do that easily with simple functions ? 20:36:09 how? 20:36:15 _8david: If you're not on the ccl list, there's a recent thread about cl+ssl that may be interesting to you. (the Ml is available via gmane.) 20:36:17 It's a shortcut syntax 20:36:33 and it's a code-generation tool for more complex things 20:37:06 A simple one: try to write a function for the special-form 'if'. You can make a macro version of 'if'. Because macros don't evaluate their arguments first. 20:37:17 demmeln: I'll be in university next monday. Can you be at the chair around 15:15-15:30? 20:37:26 why can't we write a function val -> when val ... ? 20:37:34 -!- H4ns [n=hans@h-66-167-13-153.cmbrmaor.covad.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:37:53 iwannalog: Lisp evaluates all function's arguments strictly. 20:38:14 iwannalog: Lazy evaluation gives you much what macros are typically used with in Lisp. Much but not everything. 20:38:26 iwannalog: how would the "..." part access the vaule? 20:38:34 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:38:52 iwannalog: For a reasonably simple example look at UNWIND-PROTECT-CASE in conditions.lisp in alexandria (http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/) 20:39:12 tcr: yes i prob will make it. are you around then anyway? 20:39:43 demmeln: Yeah, I've got class at 16:00. 20:39:48 tcr: and cheap lambdas. But even with that, do notation is still useful. 20:39:50 Phoodus: like do-stuff-with. No ? 20:40:22 tcr: cool, see you around 15:15 then 20:40:24 pkhuong: Well cheap lambda basically gives you lazy evaluation 20:41:24 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:41:28 iwannalog: macros write code at compile time, functions execute at run-time. 20:42:00 Well ... write really means "are executed and the output becomes the code that's compiled or evaluated at run-time". 20:42:07 iwannalog: Nope. You'd have to pass in both your variable and lambda, I guess, but that would be even longer than the original 'let' version I posted 20:42:09 constant prop can execute functions for you at compile-time, too! 20:42:19 It's just before learn a new language I want to see why I must learn it 20:42:27 I go on Haskell because of Monad 20:42:45 And I understand that if I have to learn lisp it's for macro 20:42:48 but want to be sure 20:42:51 macros are something you see more and more use for the more you use them. At first glance, they seem horribly simplistic. But as you get used to them, you see thier power and potential 20:43:02 Macros are only of several things that make Lisp attractive. 20:43:06 because you get to run your full Lisp at compile-time 20:43:08 only one of several things 20:43:12 iwannalog: there's nothing you can do in any turing complete language you can't do in another -- it's just a matter of how and with what trade-offs 20:43:24 brianj_otter: of course 20:43:32 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-c9bf9da767012784] has joined #lisp 20:44:00 iwannalog: So, learn lisp to learn the approach and techniques it enables. Then take that knowledge back to Haskell and see what new ideas you have. 20:44:11 tcr: For anything without completely specified behaviour, I'd go for really strictly functional code, to the point where I could try mathematical analysis on parts of code to determine if they can fail. This obviously would need a human, as computer will fail at it :P 20:44:22 Heck, I learned things in cobol and fortran that are useful when doing things. 20:44:24 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-94.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 20:45:01 I don't there's much overlap between Common Lisp and Haskell 20:45:06 <_8david> tcr: Thanks! 20:45:15 tcr: how about overlap between cobol and python? ;) 20:45:37 tcr: i use (eval `(funcall ,(setting frame :general-task-tree-filter) ,node)) now and it works... 20:45:46 <_8david> I don't work on CL+SSL in my free time though. Anyone who needs help is better off writing to H4ns or cl-plus-ssl-devel. 20:46:03 demmeln: that's a kludge. We'll talk about it in persona. 20:46:36 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp071.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:46:40 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3beb.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 20:46:57 tcr: ok 20:46:58 brianj_otter: now, that's evil 20:47:11 <-- is cheerfully evil 20:47:38 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@athedsl-4394804.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:48:23 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:26 It's funny how most OSes don't really have many libraries that are written in anything other than C or C++. Imagine having a program which has statically linked code in several languages 20:48:43 p_l: VMS? 20:49:16 nyef: That's probably the only one that got inter-language FFI "right" to the point of such a thing being common... 20:49:38 p_l: llvm makes that possible. It can be used to link code comming from different languages together, and even do link-time interprocedural analysis on them! 20:49:39 Why have statically linked programs? 20:49:42 Maybe someone should start a "NetVMS" project. >:-) 20:49:59 brianj_otter: faster 20:50:08 Um... 20:50:13 brianj_otter: Shared libraries were added later, but they are included in VMS 20:50:16 Is speed all that matters? 20:50:17 and use the same calling sequence 20:50:23 brianj_otter: of course :D 20:50:34 brianj_otter: Sometimes it also makes it easier to deploy 20:50:38 iwannalog: I didn't realize you only coded in macro-assembly :) 20:50:51 p_l single executables DO have a dpeloyment advantage. 20:51:09 brianj_otter: assembly, no I create my circuits 20:51:11 brianj_otter: Don't speak badly of macro assemblers, some of them are nearly like C :D 20:51:12 But, having an "executable zip file" with all the parts, no matter their langauges, would have that same advantage. 20:51:27 p_l: I thought some of them -were- C? 20:51:36 brianj_otter: there is the DLL hell 20:51:38 nyef: only the bad ones 20:52:00 nyef: Well, I only had contact with PDP-10 and Vax MACRO-32 :) 20:52:00 p_l: I don't speak badly of them. I simply think speed for hte machine is touted when in an awful lot of cases the hardware is fast enough and "time to market" is more important. 20:52:25 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:52:34 brianj_otter: And I find the belief of "hardware progress will resolve the speed issue" what kills computing for me 20:52:36 iwannalog: DLL Hell is very real problem ... but not if you bundle all the DLLs needed with it. 20:53:02 but it will become exactly the same as static linked but with many files 20:53:05 p_l: where speed is the factor, great. How often is it? 20:53:21 brianj_otter: If I'm going to bundle all the dlls together anyway, I prefer to compile it with LLVM into static executable 20:53:55 brianj_otter: In a single task it's not the factor. It's the snowball effect of thousands of those "speed is not an issue" tasks that kill 20:53:57 Then you need all languages to standardize on a calling sequence. That's tricky, when some languages have radically different models. 20:54:34 brianj_otter: That's what VMS did - it has _one_ single interface for libraries. 20:54:58 I worked Fortran on Vaxen back in 84. 20:55:22 That's where MS got their threading expertise from. 20:55:29 Vax -> NT. 20:55:36 all exported functions on proper VMS library have to use the same calling standard 20:55:50 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:02 Yes, and then they decided to keep direct compatibility with 9x line and killed the system 20:56:06 you mean like COM? :-D 20:56:12 COM is pretty horrific. 20:56:29 WinAPI is utterly stupid in many places 20:56:31 COM has its moments, but it can be horrific at times. 20:56:43 Indeed, MS mangled the daylight out of their API. 20:56:49 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-88-217-60-13.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:08 IMO they should have used a NT-specific API and leave Win16/Win32 stuff to emulation layer 20:57:11 You wouldn't believe how insane "launch a program and filter it's pipe" (which is 15 lines of C on UNIX) became in Win32 API. 20:57:19 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:57:44 brianj_otter: Yes I would. 20:57:48 this discussion of win32 borders on rewriting history 20:57:51 thx every body for the references. I'm having a look 20:57:59 brianj_otter: CreateRemoteThread() :P 20:58:09 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 20:58:24 I liked it explained as "Hey, I've got this chunk of code, execute it for me please" 20:58:25 Hello Krystof. 20:58:29 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:20 *p_l* keeps away from Windows programming most of the time, even if some of the stuff is really nice. Not enough machines to work on :) 20:59:28 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:59:42 Mmm... SBCL still doesn't have a good Win32 advocate, does it? 20:59:46 Is there a type system in LISP ? 20:59:51 I think Knuth still had it right: we should forget about small efficiencies, say about 97% of the time: premature optimization is the root of all evil. 21:00:22 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.238.211] has joined #lisp 21:00:45 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 21:00:46 <_3b> nyef: not that i've seen 21:01:00 Pity. 21:01:01 these days, forgetting small efficiencies seems to mean writing programs 10,000x slower than they ought to be 21:01:09 80/20 rule 21:01:12 brianj_otter: The thing is that many current programs work like they use bubble-sort level efficiency for everything 21:01:26 p_l: many people _won't profile_. 21:01:31 Once they get it working, they're done. 21:01:40 Many profilers show most problems in tiny areas. 21:01:41 how many people here have CPU-bound production systems in actual use right now? 21:01:48 brianj_otter: Many people leave free() up to God 21:02:02 p_l: indeed ... and profiling would show that un-bounded memory leak. 21:02:06 *nyef* tends to leave free() up to GC. 21:02:10 p_l: I frequently do that in C. 21:02:15 Phoodus: My father actually has both cpu- and memory-bound work 21:02:47 p_l: you mean he works on small systems, or on a HPC project? 21:02:53 pkhuong: When said application seems to be firefox, things get out of hand 21:03:06 Phoodus: Computational Fluid Dynamics 21:03:13 HPC then. 21:03:14 HPC then 21:03:28 aka "Eats all the computational power in the world and then asks for more" 21:03:29 :-) 21:03:31 How many of your _workstations_ are CPU pinned? 21:03:32 which isn't general-purpose computing 21:03:50 *_3b* likes to play CPU/ram limited games :) 21:04:00 brianj_otter: Thanks to bloody flash crap, half of them. 21:04:00 brianj_otter: ours do double duty as cluster nodes. 21:04:07 *brianj_otter* chuckles. 21:04:24 brianj_otter: Let's say that from my pov application writing had gone utterly to hell when the first application to truly bring down his system during normal operation was firefox 21:04:33 *my system 21:04:41 p_l: I hear that. 21:04:47 So, they ought to fix it. 21:05:13 in fact, it has happened twice. Once because of some batshit insane JS on some webpage, second time thanks to Firefox memory leaks 21:05:28 both of which should be solved by now 21:05:43 and that is not the issue of them excluding super-micro-optimizations on everything 21:05:47 since the second time I apply "Windows ME style" maintenance to my firefox - I restart it every n-hours 21:05:53 My box has 5 GB of RAM in use right now across all my development suites and the VMWares, including some publicly served. Even with all that stuff going, I can run movies and flash and (yes) Firefox and most of the time the CPUs are 95% idle. 21:06:43 brianj_otter: Firefox killed my laptop by exhausting >2G of virtual space 21:06:52 I have all virtual memory turned off. 21:06:57 then don't have that much stuff open :shrug: 21:06:59 Since thrashing does bad things. 21:07:26 seriously, HTML and its related "stuff" is a huge, complex pig. You aren't going to have a simple small program that lets you navigate the web with all its features 21:07:39 it had grown to around ~1.5G, another 0.5G was used by VM, another 0.5G by whatever other processes were used + kernel 21:07:44 no matter how "micro-optimized" it is 21:07:49 Well, not given that "navigate the web and view pages" now means "another virtual machine API". 21:08:04 Phoodus: Except that I used to do that, and even now I have JS and flash disabled by default? 21:08:14 right, you neutered the web 21:08:21 I 21:08:22 Which isn't a bad thing ;) 21:08:28 you do less, so you slice away at the program you use, limiting its complexity 21:08:36 And in such a configuration firefox had eaten everything :) 21:08:57 this was in the memory leak days? 21:09:10 Phoodus: It was 3.0.1 two months ago 21:09:16 ok 21:09:17 on x86-64 21:09:23 so, what does that have to do with optimization? 21:09:30 thsi whole discussion started on demand for speed 21:09:40 p_l: that's odd. You're running XP Pro 64 and having those problems? 21:09:45 and faster optimized speed means unrolling, precalc'd tables, etc 21:09:50 <_3b> what does this have to do with lisp for that matter? :) 21:09:50 aggressive caching 21:09:53 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:10:13 Phoodus: Now optimization means not unrolling and less precalc'd tables due to caching :D 21:10:23 depends on your CPU 21:10:30 which is yet another reason NOT to hand-optimize! 21:10:56 <_3b> i want a compiler that can hand-optimize for me 21:11:07 _3b: they're called "programmers." 21:11:08 Phoodus: And by optimization I mean careful choice of algorithms and complexity as well as dividing of application into parts 21:11:10 <_3b> as in run for a week and give me fast specialized code 21:11:27 p_l: which still means "big footprint" 21:11:31 I don't dabble with micro-optimization unless it's going to have any serious impact 21:11:43 p_l: I agree with careful choice of algorithms and complexity management. 21:12:15 _3b: I think I'd rather have something that checks that my transformations are correct, with a usable proof language. 21:12:20 <_3b> brianj_otter: 'programmers' beat compilers as compilers are usually used, but would they still compete if you gave the compiler equal time? 21:12:44 brianj_otter: Basically, what I see makes me wonder if people nowadays instead of doing it by "1) make it work 2) make it work correctly 3) make it work fast" do only the first part 21:12:49 hefner pasted "CPU scribblings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73721 21:12:51 <_3b> pkhuong: yeah, that sounds useful too :) 21:12:58 _3b: no. Long-term, smart coders can build smarter optimizing compilers. Or, ify ou're willing to go pure research, genetics can invent algorithms that are more efficient that convert a given input set to output set. 21:13:08 -!- pokey19 [n=dmg@DEE90.VPN.Dal.Ca] has left #lisp 21:13:12 p_l: I fear they skip all THREE parts. 21:13:20 programmers don't necessarily beat compilers nowadays; a lot of the interrelated cache/timings/coprocessing is too complex for humans to optimally configure 21:13:22 p_l: I see "Make something sorta-work, call it done, move on." 21:14:19 as for static linkage as better to bundling DLLs - LLVM can do full-scale optimization on the whole code, reducing both size and increasing speed 21:14:20 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:25 hefner: yay, 6502 :) 21:14:42 hefner: IIUC, the 6502 looks a bit like horizontal microcode. Could you avoid some duplication by describing semantics at that level? 21:15:05 Phoodus: that's why you use benchmarks. 21:15:06 p_l: how do you do dynamicly added plugins or user-provided extensions with only static linking? 21:15:25 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:15:31 pkhuong: benchmarks don't tell you what can be done better. It only tells you how fast it is now 21:15:45 brianj_otter: As usual, I call whatever the OS makes available for loading code at runtime. Static linking doesn't mean you can't do that 21:15:53 I think ... I'm trying to remember the last production system I did that was not doing dynamic external code loading. 21:15:58 Phoodus: so there's no need to develop a precise performance model. 21:16:06 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:14 brianj_otter: Dynamic loading and shared libraries are not the same 21:16:33 hefner: Cool! That's rather different from how I last did it. 21:16:34 p_l: actually, the implementations are. 21:16:44 pkhuong: probably so, and it might make more sense to spend the extra effort really understanding the decode rom and all the control signals, rather than writing a much more verbose mostly-but-not-quite-accurate simulation 21:17:28 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:17:47 brianj_otter: Not exactly. On linux at least the loader supports shared libraries by calling the same routines as you'd do for dynamic loading, just it does that before running the code included in application. 21:17:56 If you want to understand the decoder, the first thing to do is break up the opcode into fields (byte 3 5) (byte 3 2) (byte 2 0) and watch where things land. 21:17:57 and it fixes symbol table of course :) 21:18:20 hefner: the level you're looking at it should not introduce any incompatibilities 21:18:23 p_l: shared libraries have an implicit assumption of presence. Dynamic doesn't. So one takes place during init. 21:18:33 I -think- those were the field boundaries, at least... 21:19:39 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx07476.centeva.wayport.net] has quit [] 21:19:48 hefner: the things to remember are the JMP ($xxFF) and stuff that indexes in zero page, both of which don't cross a page boundary 21:19:53 brianj_otter: Loader does that by using the same mechanism as dlopen()&co, but it puts addresses from dlsym() into symbol table of loaded process (making it a jump table) 21:20:14 -!- drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:20:19 sharing on linux is done through mmap() 21:20:55 hefner: The other thing to remember is the extra cycle taken for carry propagation on page-crossing in effective-address computation. 21:21:33 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:34 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:21:37 those are the little details that worry me. so long as they're noted in 64doc.txt, I should be fine. :) 21:21:47 yeah, 64doc is good 21:21:57 p_l: I am in lisp because I want to let the authors of the lisp implementation ensure that all that level of detail works. 21:21:57 though there are other versions of the 6502 21:22:03 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:17 -!- amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:22:20 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 21:23:26 brianj_otter: Also, the last time I checked, both Haskell and Lisp effectively created static executables except for libc and explicit FFI 21:23:40 Phoodus: I'm not concerned with the 65c02 right now, nor any of the more exotic variants. 21:23:47 p_l: actually, try to find one on Windows that does ;) 21:24:09 I just tested ecl and clisp to make either stand-alones or even imges. 21:24:25 Clisp could do it, but the windows implementation of clisp doens't handle binary pipes well. 21:24:35 hefner: And don't forget that the D flag still exists, but doesn't actually -do- anything... Or the cycle-steal for the DMC-DMA channel. 21:24:58 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:24:59 I can't remember if I emulate that cycle stealing or not. 21:24:59 (Unless you're not doing the 2A03.) 21:25:10 Yeah, I certainly didn't. 21:25:25 hefner: are you doing C64 or other home computer emulation, or just an embedded 6502? 21:25:25 brianj_otter: I keep mostly to *nix systems, sometimes doing some work in .NET 21:25:52 p_l: my stuff has to run in UNIX, Windows, and we're trying to get ARM and such as well. 21:26:11 Phoodus: There's just enough information slung around in the past couple minutes that you should be able to pick up that it's an NES emulator. 21:26:48 ok, I didn't recognize "DMC", though the 64 does DMA as well 21:26:51 and cycle stealing 21:27:13 The mention of the 2A03 was the other tipoff. 21:27:16 brianj_otter: BTW, the most mad thing I had seen with regards to interoperability was an OS in the form of set of libraries mostly written in F77, with the whole environment keeping those as the only window outside (with few exceptions like X11 clients) 21:27:20 well, I'm not familiar with NES guts 21:27:31 Fair enough. 21:27:34 I watched the 'Ultimate C64 Talk' last night, which depicts the C64 as a much more interesting machine than I realized 21:27:53 p_l: consider web-browsers as being an OS for JS, HTML, and CSS based programs. 21:27:55 Yeah, even the Vic-20 can be fun. 21:28:11 hefner: it is an incredibly exploitable, hackable machine that is still far surpassing its original goals 21:28:11 hefner: Was it fully extensible, like Atari 800 and similar? 21:28:14 (Full 6502 system in the bloody -disk drives-? WTF?) 21:28:26 Ah, the 1541s. 21:28:31 hefner: A recent release did 4-channel 8-bit MOD player, + 2 SID channels, all with frequency filtering 21:28:43 brianj_otter: I keep my web-browsers as display devices ;-) 21:28:44 And nobody ever remembers Ohio Scientific or ZX81. 21:28:47 hefner: while still running screen effects 21:28:55 p_l: I prefer to as well. 21:29:08 Or the ever fun Kim. 21:29:08 nyef: that was my reaction, too. All that and still slow as hell. As a kid I owned an Atari, and my friend owned a C64. I always made fun of his disk drives. :) 21:29:22 ZX Spectrum is pretty well known in Poland by people who remember 8-bit home computers 21:29:36 Of course it was slow as hell. Bloody serial channel between the disk unit and the main system. 21:29:42 I managed the computer store in the US that sold the most of them in the 80s. Sunset Electronics. World-wide shipping. 21:29:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:30:03 Also sold Commodore and atari. I made a lot more money coding for the commodore crowd, though. 21:30:05 The Commodore chips had a hardware serial shift register that was supposed to run the serial bus, but the original in the VIC-20 had a bug, so they wrote a slow software interface and didn't change until the C128, when it was too late 21:30:10 Now, if you want a really cool disk system of that era, the Apple Disk ][ system kicked ass. 21:30:25 nyef: That's why the only disk drive for Atari that I know to be officially produced used DMA 21:30:55 evenin'. 21:30:58 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70d1a1.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [No route to host] 21:31:00 my god I zx spectrum! 21:31:02 -!- iwannalog [n=IWannaLo@ivr94-1-82-67-244-5.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 21:31:05 Wht have I walked into here? 21:31:07 Hello schme. 21:31:13 If you are mad enough you can try adding a SCSI controler to 8bit Atari 21:31:19 schme: emulators in lisp, apparently 21:31:22 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has joined #lisp 21:31:22 oh. 21:31:26 Well carry on. 21:31:42 You almost awoke my soldering iron geek inside me. 21:31:50 *nyef* wonders if he should blow the dust off of nevermore now, or wait for a few weeks. 21:32:07 What is nevermore? 21:32:13 TI Explorer emulator. 21:32:23 BTW, have anyone tried making the emulator as several different processes sharing parts of address space? 21:32:39 You're all crazy :) 21:32:54 What? Nevermore actually worked well enough to boot the lisp environment. 21:32:57 All this time you *could* be working on getting sbcl to play nice with jack, and here you are jabbering about emulators :P 21:32:59 *p_l* met with that method in klh10 and loved it ever since 21:33:12 nyef: That's excellent :) 21:34:37 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:34:52 And the stomach escalates my attention away. l8r! 21:35:10 some gui releated questions: 21:35:44 there seems to be a opengl backend for mcclim, right? does it render everything in opengl? 21:36:08 iwannalog [n=IWannaLo@ivr94-1-82-67-244-5.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:09 turbo24prg: I don't think it is in working order. 21:36:21 drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:36:26 turbo24prg: Though it seems a good alternative for making mcclim portable and nice :) 21:37:03 <_3b> schme: not really, it uses the glx protocol, so no more portable than the clx version :) 21:37:05 that's what i was thinking of 21:37:25 oh, thought cl-opengl 21:37:35 _3b: oh! that is too bad .( 21:37:36 <_3b> it is older than cl-opengl 21:38:20 well, and how do mcclim and cells work together? 21:39:12 do they? 21:39:25 vasa [n=vasa@mm-180-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 21:40:57 <_3b> anyone know if the mcclim GL backend draws everything with GL or not? 21:41:37 uhm, that was what i meant. is it possible to use them together or are there any problems -- or is it even better to use cello or celltk? 21:41:46 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 21:45:25 _3b: I think that's the idea, but I doubt it has ran since 2002 21:46:42 too bad :/ 21:47:06 <_3b> hefner: think it is missing functionality, or just outdated code preventing it from running? 21:47:19 probably both, definitely the latter 21:47:39 i should definitely give it a try 21:48:08 *hefner* remembers he's supposed to be doing lisp GUI things, not playing with emulators 21:49:39 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:51:12 There's an idea though. making mcclim use cl-opengl. 21:51:42 it wouldn't be hard to get something up on the screen 21:51:50 <_3b> schme: it is on my list of things to try at some point, no idea if i'll ever get that far down the list though :/ 21:51:58 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:52:16 implementing all the drawing operations in all their various forms would be tedious, though 21:52:42 *_3b* would probably add glfw or lispbuilder-sdl as well for portability though 21:52:47 _3b: What a coincidence. It is also on my list now. Problem with this list is that it has insane growth rate. 21:53:06 <_3b> schme: yep, that can be a problem 21:53:34 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:54:31 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:55:03 doesn't cl-opengl support linux, osx and win? 21:55:28 why glfw or lispbuilder-sdl? 21:55:29 <_3b> turbo24prg: it does, but opengl doesn't have any input or window management 21:55:43 <_3b> so you need something os specific for those 21:55:58 ah, ok. good point 21:57:55 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.238.211] has left #lisp 21:58:03 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:58:22 nyef: thanks for reminding me. I didn't emulate DMC cycle stealing. Now I do. (sort of, apparently it's quite subtle and not fully understood) 21:58:23 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 21:58:30 <_3b> i suppose gtk/qt/wx would work as well, but that would require bindings, and be a bit silly anyway :) 22:00:04 drdo2 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:00:15 <_3b> alternately, could go directly to win api, since there are already support for X and OSX input, but that would require dealing with windows apis 22:00:47 clausewitz [n=th@0x535b95eb.kjnxx11.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:01:30 even better, have runtime recognize if DWM is available and call DWM instead of normal GDI :D 22:02:25 <_3b> p_l: for creating windows and doing input? 22:02:32 vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:02:43 _3b: For windows management 22:03:41 <_3b> p_l: ah, guess that would be for someone that upgrades windows to implement :) 22:03:48 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:10 <_3b> p_l: does it play nicely with GL? don't remember what ended up happening with that 22:04:36 _3b: GL doesn't really work well with it - it has to be emulated through DX 22:04:43 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 22:04:50 since DWM draws everything on DX surfaces 22:05:06 <_3b> p_l: probably counterproductive to worry about that with a GL app then :) 22:05:19 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:05:27 but DWM+GDI would give you similar effect to GL backend :) 22:05:40 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:05:41 <_3b> except for the ability to use GL part :) 22:05:49 true 22:05:56 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:05:57 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:06:18 beach [n=user@58.186.158.222] has joined #lisp 22:06:20 Good morning 22:06:46 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 22:06:46 morning beach 22:06:50 but GL support on windows is weird anyway, and people won't like it when launching a normal app makes the desktop change mode :) 22:07:11 <_3b> is that a vista thing? 22:07:13 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:18 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 22:07:27 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:30 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:33 *_3b* can't help it if they want to use an OS that can't even handle opengl :) 22:07:35 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:46 _3b: NT6 and NT6.1 22:07:51 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:08:15 Oh, it can handle OpenGL just fine. It's just that it can sometimes act weird 22:08:44 It's not a problem with games or applications like CAD or 3D modeling 22:09:22 But I haven't yet tried running GL apps under Windows 7 and see if they will work with Aero working at full effects 22:10:50 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:11:05 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:12:43 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:18 <_3b> i suppose i could just write a 20% solution for direct win32 input/window creation, and let anyone who cared fix it further :) 22:13:23 -!- drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:13:43 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:57 <_3b> then there would be at least a tiny bit more chance of someone eventually making a nice wdm/gdi/dx/whatever version 22:15:52 -!- drdo 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binding. 23:10:35 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 23:11:29 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-137.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:41 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 23:12:18 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:12:40 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-237-96.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:15:17 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:09 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:16:12 nyef: what is let* N 23:16:20 s/N/?/ 23:16:38 (let* ((a 3) (b (+ a 1)) ...) 23:16:38 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:17:00 clhs let* 23:17:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 23:17:11 beach` [n=user@58.186.166.200] has joined #lisp 23:17:30 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[n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:13 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 23:48:35 someone is asking me about clojure. they already use scheme and cl for real apps. clojure for production seems like pushing the fringe another step. reactions? 23:48:55 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:05 More power to 'em? 23:50:09 -!- scottj [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has left #lisp 23:52:27 knightblader [n=da465415@monroe.cs.ucf.edu] has joined #lisp 23:52:33 drdo1 [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:53:44 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:54:46 what could be less fringy than running on the JVM? 23:55:16 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:19 hefner: having all your code in an oddball lisp? :) 23:59:32 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]