00:00:25 fusss: thanks. i think that's what i need cuz *central-registry* doesnt have the directory 00:00:30 instead of checking the licence, the copy protection mechanism created the proper addresses for the library 00:00:31 the right one i mean 00:02:01 wow, On Lisp at amazon.com : $733.76 00:02:28 lispm: seriously? 00:02:28 at that price, is it signed by the author? 00:02:32 fusss: do i have to do that for each library/package? 00:02:36 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has joined #lisp 00:02:37 'new' 00:02:53 p_l: what did it create them from and how is that a copy protection? 00:02:58 Or did they simply mistake the price, like Dell with their brand new, expensive Quadros being sold for 4.90? 00:03:01 amazon.zw? 00:03:13 well, there are cheaper ones $299, $249 ... 00:03:14 -!- jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:25 p_l: so one library was scrambled, and entering the key would descramble it, which could then be copied? 00:03:31 I wonder if people know the text is online... 00:03:48 I think it is a real collectors item 00:03:58 xan_: anyone willing to shell out that price probably knows 00:04:05 xan_: collectors and "investors"; betting on Prentice Hall never making another edition is better than a Roth IRA :-P 00:04:20 Fare: AFAIK there was more to it, however I can't recall the details. Quite possibly the original descrambling included stuff tying it down to one machine 00:04:31 Lisp Style and Design: $229.95 00:04:56 I avoided Office XP like fire, so I don't know much more - I only happened upon it once, and found this utterly long procedure to crack it 00:05:13 p_l: what about 2k? 00:05:41 fusss, investors = "Man, I bet this paul graham guy is going to be more popular than Jesus when arc becomes a hit" 00:05:42 Is there a difference between dpb and deposit-field? 00:05:53 <_death> Fare: now consider if the mapping between symbols and addresses is per-copy.. then you also have a watermarking scheme.. then you need the key to also depend on the machine, and then you have some protection scheme that I wrote some years ago :) 00:05:58 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:06:02 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 00:06:03 somebody wants for the Lisp Machine book $452 00:06:07 I'm rich 00:06:40 Fare: 2k had standard licence check, so as long as you provided the right 'key', it works 00:06:56 the same for 2k3 and 2k7 00:07:14 -!- keramida [n=keramida@adsl40-151.kln.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:44 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:18 However, I can just see how many things could go wrong when you calculate you jump destination based on input from anti-piracy mechanism 00:08:25 *your 00:08:38 fusss: (nevernmind... i had a typo) 00:09:30 lispm: do you know if the code for BUILD is available anywhere? 00:09:44 LiamH: for your sanity, you will find CL bit manipulation operations are too many and goddamn way too powerful. to answer you, no. 00:09:59 Fare: I haven't seen it 00:10:01 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:10:26 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:33 LiamH: dbp, log*, deposit-field, ldb, and the whole boole suite. 00:10:40 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:10:52 fusss: OK 00:10:55 and they're all setf places, double plus good 00:10:59 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:11:24 *fusss* had fun playing with Lisp and Hacker's Delight :-) 00:11:28 the descriptions sure sound very similar though 00:12:39 LiamH: i reckon some of the functionality is optimized by your compiler. specially if you use fixnums and 8-bit bytes. 00:12:50 with proper declarations 00:13:29 there are also bit-arrays, which are freakishly out of this world and i have never seen them in any other programming language 00:15:19 LiamH: Xach has cool bit-streams in this project. http://www.xach.com/lisp/cl-flash.tgz 00:15:22 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-88-217-65-32.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:15:41 <_3b> fusss: don't like those annoying bool specialized vectors in c++ then? 00:16:09 _3b: i wrote my C++ with stdlib :-) 00:16:35 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk84.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 00:17:30 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:32 What is so special about bit arrays? 00:18:05 that they store bits? 00:18:20 <_3b> they ignore most of the printer control vars, so are harder to workw ith? :) 00:18:37 schme: that you don't have to think of your input as 8-piece units? 00:18:43 I'm more wondering what is so freakishly out of this world about 'em. 00:19:11 fusss: Sure.. so normal bit arrays? 00:19:57 hmm... AFAIK Erlang had specialized support for bitarrays 00:20:14 or rather, for types stored in arrays of bits 00:20:26 schme: when you combine random-access to bits in a stream with interactive repl. it feels a bit awesome. 00:20:38 <_3b> p_l: did they make them just enough different from normal arrays to be annoying like CL and c++ did? 00:20:54 p_l: I don't think it does. It does make it very easy to split stuff into bits though. 00:21:03 schme: one would just think that they store bits in some efficient ways 00:21:22 lispm: Hmm.. not really. They're stored like normal. Just easy access with the bit syntax. 00:21:23 _3b: They are completely different construct. Basically you have a way to define decomposition of stream of bits into "normal" types and back 00:21:35 <_3b> p_l: ah, that is more reasonable 00:21:44 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@v113247.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit ["to work"] 00:21:50 keramida [n=keramida@adsl40-151.kln.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 00:22:16 _3b: It was a required feature when a big part of the coding you intend to do is working with bitstreams :) 00:22:35 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 00:22:38 schme: no, one would expect that a bit array is efficiently stored, other array element types often are upgraded to something else 00:23:03 foo pasted "free phone calls, thanks to CL" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73610 00:23:17 schme: try to define an array with 5bit elements 00:24:10 *stassats* uses bit-vectors for sieve of Eratosthenes, pretty fast and compact 00:25:04 *_3b* used them while playing with netflix prize stuff. realizing they ignored *print-length* and friends was painful :) 00:25:41 dcl [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 00:25:41 maybe instead of xcvb, I should just adapt lisp to use omake 00:26:39 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:26:39 schmx [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:26:56 right. wadImiss? 00:27:02 <_3b> at least SLIME has gotten smart enough that they aren't completely unuseable with *print-array* on 00:27:18 fusss: I was going to say, before I lagged out, that I reckon ocaml has bit arrays, with the repl. 00:27:50 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27:51 and it seems factor has it too. Cool beans. 00:28:27 (UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE '(UNSIGNED-BYTE 5)) -> (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) 00:28:28 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:28:51 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:31:56 -!- keramida [n=keramida@adsl40-151.kln.forthnet.gr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:32:21 keramida [n=keramida@adsl145-182.kln.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 00:32:41 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-048-227.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:11 Pascal makes lots of new friends on comp.lang.ruby 00:33:31 'remember that Ruby is just a lisp that has been Matzacred.' 00:33:31 how so ? 00:34:06 plus he always posts ruby code with parentheses 00:34:14 heh 00:34:19 tee hee, I will have a look 00:34:32 I guess he got bored of the gratuitous Ruby posts in c.l.l 00:34:53 lispm: much love for pascal :-) makes those threads worthwile. 00:35:00 'Matzacred' is a cool neologism though :) 00:35:04 (I refuse to agree to all lisp allusions of ruby until return returns from blocks, not their enclosing functions) 00:35:32 he also reconstructed Lisp in ruby, using ruby code with parentheses 00:36:52 Matzacred? I feel a shout out to Macekred :D 00:37:03 macarena was a dance I think. 00:37:34 that too, but for me it connects more with Macekre 00:37:53 this is a fun posting http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/msg/56fce4adeaa79f68 00:38:06 William James is already annoyed. ;-) 00:39:10 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:39:38 sublime! 00:39:54 lispm, adding parenthesis to ruby code is a most excellent way of trolling. It's still trolling, though. 00:40:23 a ruby guy answers: I know you know you don't need those parentheses. Is this a LISP homage? :-) 00:40:30 haha 00:40:33 asfd1243 [i=812131fb@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d0baf9a86e0cbbec] has joined #lisp 00:43:14 I like this answer. 00:43:20 In Ruby everything is an object. That's my favourite Ruby's feature. And you 00:43:20 showed that by just making one module you can have Lisp like functional 00:43:20 programming. So I'll stick with Ruby. 00:44:14 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:55 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-014-111.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:45:58 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.98] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:46:11 fwiw, i find the rubyists in that thread surprisingly pleasant. maybe WJ is the exception? 00:46:12 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB!"] 00:46:27 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:46:33 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 00:47:04 Yes even with the trolling. 00:47:20 WJ? 00:47:23 or someone kept out certain parts of Rails community? 00:47:46 well, actually pascal posts some ruby on comp.lang.ruby 00:48:04 william james posts ruby on comp.lang.lisp ;-) 00:49:09 ruby with parentheses looks nice 00:49:53 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:59 Haha, I rotflmao at the point where he gave Ruby (first) and (rest) :) 00:50:01 lispm: non-idiomatic ruby though. cllers would devour anyone who writes (defmethod main ((argc int) (argv string)) ..) 00:50:08 I guess that's the first thing pascal does when he sees a new language: he tries to bend it to look and act like Lisp and puzzles people 00:50:36 what cl crypto library should I be using? 00:50:50 is there one that has, say, tth? 00:51:03 Fare: ironclad? 00:51:03 ironclad? 00:51:14 fusss: aren't there some similar constructs in several lisps? 00:51:49 http://www.cliki.net/Ironclad 00:51:52 after reading that post, I think I'm gonna troll myself writing Merb&Rails code this way :3 00:52:23 ironclad has tiger. I suppose a tree-hash on top shouldn't be too hard. 00:52:30 That is my signal to go to bed. 00:52:32 good night. 00:52:43 Fare: openssl bindings should have what you want as well http://www.cliki.net/Cryptography 00:53:00 now that sha-1 and md5 are broken, is tiger the right thing to be using? 00:53:28 fusss: yes, but I'd really not want to depend on openssl for xcvb 00:53:28 are there s-expression languages which are not lisp? 00:53:42 so, paren structure, san the cons? 00:53:43 cads: isapnp used to have one 00:53:57 cads: some will tell you scheme isn't 00:54:01 Fare: fwiw, few packages are GPG signs and my index rests on the [0] restart when running asdf-install. sadly. 00:54:39 cads_: XML SAX. various data interchange formats. the programming language for a few routers and VoIP packages. Essentially shell scripts with s-exp syntax. 00:54:43 do you trust all those gpg keys, anyway? 00:54:57 cads_: and every DSL written in Lisp 00:55:06 rc ? 00:55:17 (the shell from plan9) 00:55:42 cads_: the internal representation for GCC 00:55:47 heh 00:55:50 -!- antoni [n=antoni@70.pool85-53-6.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 00:55:55 and ocaml 00:56:25 i wonder why more languages don't use them 00:56:25 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has joined #lisp 00:57:13 and R6RS Scheme 00:57:23 JOKE 00:58:03 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:58:30 -!- dcl is now known as spiderbyte 00:58:54 is there a git or darcs for ironclad? 00:59:51 http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/mirror/ironclad/ 01:04:46 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:07:03 Fare: tiger or whirlpool 01:10:11 looks like ironclad is optimized for 32-bit implementations. 01:11:43 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:11:57 makes sense 01:15:32 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:16:55 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:56 -!- cads_ [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:18:29 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:20:45 *fusss* seriously wants a win32 build of ecl that someone else did 01:22:56 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:09 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:27:27 fusss: Wasn't there a download available? 01:27:54 Though you'd probably need Windows SDK to get it working properly 01:27:55 p_l: i'm following a cll thread and juan says there is none, you have to build it yourself 01:28:24 hmm. Anyway, I consider Windows SDK as a prerequisite for ECL usage anyway :) 01:28:44 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:30:08 Can't really exploit some features of ECL without it 01:34:17 -!- zeller [n=chatzill@dhcp-063096.mobile.uci.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008111317]"] 01:34:45 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.45.73] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:34:52 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.183.29] has joined #lisp 01:36:23 slackorama [i=a76bbfd9@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8795e2ed579d2675] has joined #lisp 01:36:44 guess so 01:37:11 gwydion dylan is tied down to Pelles C and it's useless without it 01:37:38 brb 01:40:13 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:40:38 Well, it works even better with MSVC6 01:41:10 (and you probably mean Open Dylan rather than Gwydion Dylan) 01:41:42 rumbleca [n=rumble@174.0.46.123] has joined #lisp 01:46:58 fusss_ 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[n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 03:28:55 -!- jhc [n=jhc@adsl-68-23-84-102.dsl.dytnoh.ameritech.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:29:02 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.132.67] has joined #lisp 03:33:13 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:21 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 03:36:43 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-235-220.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:13 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-1948c69c5a1ceadd] has joined #lisp 03:46:19 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:41 cl-fad doesn't use :follow-symlinks nil on sbcl 03:47:03 is there an "official" maintainer for cl-fad? 03:47:06 :follow-symlinks was recently readded to sbcl 03:47:10 shall I send patches to edi? 03:47:49 should I prefer osicat and wish instead for a windows implementation of with-directory-iterator? 03:48:25 that would be only 2 implementations of the function, whereas the cl-fad way means one per implementation 03:48:47 *Fare* supports the osicat way 03:48:50 meanerelk [n=meanerel@c-68-40-122-49.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:35 -!- keramida [n=keramida@adsl145-182.kln.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:52:16 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:54:07 zambonegro [i=zamboneg@ip72-207-22-131.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:42 Tired of them sheiitskined negros and their generalmonkeyshines? Join us at http://www.chimpout.com !!! Thats right!!!Chimpout.com is nniiigger hating central. We are not white supremacists......but people of all races that hate nigggeers and aren't nigggeeers. Join us in the humanistic alliance against the little simians! http://www.chimpout.com 03:54:48 sigh 03:55:56 wtf. does that happen often? 03:56:14 meanerelk: sometimes. It's happened a couple of times now. 03:57:07 Reini_Urban [n=chatzill@212-183-55-86.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:57:27 xristos: herep 03:57:49 it's just weird that it would happen on lisp. judging from their website, they barely know how to use a computer. 03:58:13 vorian [i=steve@freenode/staff/vorian] has joined #lisp 03:58:26 meanerelk: it's a group of spammers that just gets together and does this. It happens throughout freenode. I'm sure other networks. 03:58:55 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.132.67] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:59:13 keramida [n=keramida@adsl145-182.kln.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 03:59:14 -!- zambonegro [i=zamboneg@ip72-207-22-131.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [K-lined] 03:59:15 and it doesn't worth discussing 03:59:48 stassats`: sorry. just haven't been on irc much. 04:00:02 stassats`: apparently, it's actually for money, which is interesting. The guy said he works for a spammer corp. 04:00:45 I'm not sure I could look myself in the mirror in the morning if I worked for a spammer corp 04:01:01 these guys must have a deficiency in some moral organ 04:01:16 I guess there comes a time for some people when food on the table or that neat gadget is worth more than ideals. 04:01:16 Has anyone else noticed that lispbuilder-sdl is quite slow in a way that if you're updating a moving rect for example, even at a low speed, you'll see a trail of the rect? 04:01:45 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-63-218.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:01:59 -!- Reini_Urban is now known as rurban 04:02:26 *Fare* decides that fixing cl-fad is an uphill battle whereas extending osicat isn't 04:04:02 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 04:06:26 anyone? :S 04:06:53 H4ns1 [n=hans@72-255-89-166.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:29 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:04 H4ns1: after battling with cl-fad, I decided that fixing cl-fad is an uphill battle whereas extending osicat isn't 04:10:38 -!- H4ns [n=hans@72-255-89-166.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:10:47 to fix cl-fad, I need to fix it once per implementation, with a growing number of implementations and many system interactions 04:11:12 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:11:19 to fix osicat, I need to fix it once per OS, with a dwindling number of relevant OSes and implementation interactions already handled by cffi 04:13:21 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 04:13:22 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:13:24 -!- xinming_ is now known as me 04:13:34 -!- me is now known as xinming 04:13:49 fusss 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[n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:02:43 -!- beach [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:03:05 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:05:23 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 07:05:48 morning 07:05:53 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 07:07:31 -!- azathoth99 [i=4cae1cf9@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0423119512df6ef1] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 07:07:48 athos [n=philipp@p54B850D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:49 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 07:16:32 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:17:52 hey beach 07:17:57 and H4ns 07:21:03 odin-set [i=4cae1cf9@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d47477a6c3dc2b40] has joined #lisp 07:23:34 runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 07:25:15 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:25:41 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:54 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-157-58.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:00 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:26:38 -!- Jabberwo_ [n=jens@mue-88-130-115-226.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:27:35 -!- kami-`` is now known as kami- 07:27:39 good morning 07:27:47 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:29:04 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:29:05 -!- HG` [n=wells@118.82.169.165] has quit [Client Quit] 07:29:05 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:22 pierpa [n=user@host202-182-static.80-94-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:30:58 plutonas [n=plutonas@adsl-144.ucnet.uoc.gr] has joined #lisp 07:31:16 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 07:31:28 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:52 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-236-102.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:01 good morning all 07:32:06 or good evening :) 07:32:13 -!- rudi [n=rudi@z118l194.static.ctm.net] has quit ["Client exciting"] 07:32:28 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:04 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:27 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:06 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 07:35:19 is the maintainer of the debian/ubuntu sbcl and slime packages here, sometimes? 07:35:49 no idea 07:35:51 :) 07:36:07 kami-: know his/her name? 07:36:10 I think sbcl is compile-able, so I would just compile it :) 07:36:31 ;) 07:36:55 just not with clisp, from my very recent experience 07:38:12 Jabberwo_ [n=jens@p508EBC88.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:23 fusss: Peter van Eynde 07:38:26 oh, 24 is out already! 07:39:09 not sure 07:39:13 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 07:39:34 Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has joined #lisp 07:39:38 Ahh, there is also a 'Debian Common Lisp Team" with a mailing list. I'll go for that. 07:41:47 ahh, debian, the politburo 07:42:39 -!- Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has left #lisp 07:45:23 lol 07:46:03 though I think Debian's nonfree repos are still working alright? 07:46:15 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:51:37 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 07:54:24 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:56:40 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:59:24 chrisliaw [n=chris@219.93.36.231] has joined #lisp 08:00:24 Maahes [n=Mihos@76-217-166-71.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:28 tihonov [n=kef@kefeer2.convex.ru] has joined #lisp 08:02:54 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F499.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:55 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:05:20 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:05:39 japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has joined #lisp 08:06:30 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:06:57 hello lispers 08:07:11 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host188.190-226-117.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:07:32 -!- runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:13:17 -!- Maahes [n=Mihos@76-217-166-71.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:14:20 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:15:24 How do I stop this loop when current-node is nil ? (loop for current-node = node then (cms-tree-node-parent-node current-node) collect (cms-tree-node-name current-node)) 08:18:53 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:19:00 eevar2 [n=jalla@225.89-10-30.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:20:22 while current-node 08:20:24 while current-node ? 08:20:51 -!- lexclose [n=wmarvel@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:21:50 -!- patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:22:35 runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 08:22:48 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.74.10] has joined #lisp 08:23:36 benny [n=benny@i577A098A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:23:41 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:23:43 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 08:24:22 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 08:25:28 -!- japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has left #lisp 08:25:29 -!- CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:48 mulligan [n=user@e178043223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:34 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:28:38 good morning 08:29:26 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:30:02 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-220-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:30:11 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 08:32:29 H4ns, I was using when insted of while :S (and I wrote the loop in a ugly way). I think I need a coffee to begin coding 08:32:43 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@vpn-21417.vpn-s.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 08:34:00 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178043223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 08:36:18 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:38:04 Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has joined #lisp 08:40:25 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B850D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:40:29 -!- Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has left #lisp 08:41:41 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:41 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:48:28 -!- chrisliaw [n=chris@219.93.36.231] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:48:51 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-132.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:47 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 08:51:17 netaustin [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:25 Cronos [n=a@5ad01fde.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:30 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 08:54:55 Hi 08:56:26 beach [n=user@58.186.166.17] has joined #lisp 08:56:30 Good afternoon. 08:56:42 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@vpn-21417.vpn-s.ntnu.no] has left #lisp 08:57:55 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:58:45 -!- Cronos [n=a@5ad01fde.bb.sky.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:59:59 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:59:59 -!- wolfboy22 [i=baumgold@tithonus.cs.brandeis.edu] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:59:59 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:59:59 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:59:59 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm247.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:59:59 -!- Zhivago 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[n=boris@195-50-206-243-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 09:58:06 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:59:38 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.208] has joined #lisp 10:00:35 hello 10:00:46 can I ask some general questions about lisp? 10:00:52 athos_ [n=philipp@p54B85081.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:57 or is this forum for only highly technical questions? 10:02:04 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 10:02:16 Sure, but try to make them intelligent questions. 10:02:17 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:02:47 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:01 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 10:03:04 can a program running on 1 box communicate with a lisp process on a second box? 10:03:10 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-1948c69c5a1ceadd] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:03:17 in an efficient manner? 10:03:34 and can by doing this one form a sort of distributed application? 10:03:49 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-205-79-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:04:06 I am not talking http but something like unix sockets, and would this be much faster than http? 10:04:50 so that one ends up with a kind of cluster application? 10:05:50 most lisps can do socket programming, odin-set 10:05:51 odin-set: it's not inside the language, like it is for erlang, if that's what you mean. 10:06:11 odin-set, http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Networking.html 10:06:13 -!- runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:06:29 there was at least one project aiming to make a library for Erlang-style message passing 10:06:43 (also http://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/ and http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/ ) 10:07:11 oh, and http is sockets 10:07:23 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:07:50 ..or at least it "means" sockets in most cases 10:08:33 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:08:47 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:09:03 odin: It's reasonably straight-forward to communicate by sending and receiving s-exps. 10:09:08 though I'd say that length+checksum+Sexps sent over sockets seem better for me for generic multiprocessing... 10:09:17 p_l: erlang-in-lisp does not seem to support remote communication 10:09:33 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 10:09:55 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 10:10:17 how do slime and swank communicate for example? with textual representation of sexp ? 10:10:25 kuwabara: Well, I haven't tried those projects in practice, but at least one had stated goal of distributed programming with code working on different machines 10:12:06 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:12:30 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.208] has quit ["gone"] 10:13:00 kiuma: cl-serializer pretty much supports all types, report if something is missing. uses svuc for standard objects, so keep that in mind for mop-heavy stuff 10:13:43 however, passing messages in the form of seems simple and usable for me :) 10:13:50 p_l: why do you suggest that a checksum is needed when communicating over tcp? 10:14:09 rickardg` [n=user@c-e51ae455.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:14:15 H4ns: Because of a certain information passed in RFC 10:14:30 p_l: hu? can you be specific? 10:15:08 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:15:20 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:15:21 I don't remember the exact RFC number, but it included a tale where a lack of end-to-end checking resulted in lots of damaged data, which was sent from one machine to another over TCP 10:15:47 a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has joined #lisp 10:15:48 p_l: a tale. very good! 10:15:51 Basically, no one said the router won't screw up contents of your packets on the way 10:16:05 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit ["I quit!"] 10:16:08 p_l: so what you say is that, basically, http does not work because it does not use checksums? 10:16:41 Depends on what you're using it for. 10:16:53 A little corruption in a web page that a human is reading is not a big deal. 10:17:04 H4ns: No, I'm not saying that. However, checksumming on both ends of the connection is a useful thing, and is often performed, albeit manually, with HTTP :) 10:17:54 Computers tend to be less robust in the face of bad data. 10:18:00 and it takes one machine somewhere in the chain with a transient CPU error to kill your data :) 10:18:20 p_l: i'm saying that one should assume that http is a reliable transport protocol. adding another checksum will not add a lot of security unless very careful analysis of the checksum algorithm is performed and it is proven to be more reliable than the mechanisms used in tcp. 10:20:00 sulo [n=sulo@p54A3DF4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:37 H4ns: What was proposed in that RFC was that communication which requires truly reliable communication, one should perform a checksum at the beginning and the end of the connection, on the whole message. 10:20:50 runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 10:21:15 You could always use https :) 10:21:21 p_l: yeah. only that none of the common protocols used in the tcp/ip world picked up that proposal. to me, this means something. 10:21:38 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B850D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:43 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:21:47 A specific case is that any network, however carefully designed, will be subject to failures of transmission at some statistically determined rate. The best way to cope with this is to accept it, and give responsibility for the integrity of communication to the end systems. 10:21:54 quote from RFC1958 10:21:59 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:22:14 H4ns: Most of 'popular' protocols were designed before this memo 10:22:14 p_l: right. this is why one uses tcp and not udp 10:23:32 and many are used with manual end-to-end checking. The webpage you download might not use checksumming, but any installer package worth it's size includes automated checksumming in the beginning 10:23:44 or embed rsync, which can pick up after a failure 10:24:07 p_l: tcp does checksumming then you have lower level protocols doing their own checksumming 10:24:14 doesnt mean its 100% foolproof 10:24:19 cause a small error in webpage doesn't make a problem, but a misplaced bit might change a 'nop' into 'halt-and-catch-fire' 10:24:19 well anyway, i made my case. i'd suggest over tcp. 10:24:32 but it sure works for the majority of cases out there 10:25:14 don333 [n=user@nut.man.poznan.pl] has joined #lisp 10:25:28 odin-set: you can blame me if your application does not work because you did not add application level checksums. 10:25:30 11:03 < odin-set> and can by doing this one form a sort of distributed application? <--- this is the reason why I'm advocating end-to-end reliability 10:26:21 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 10:26:44 p_l: can you demonstrate how broken data passes a tcp connection undetected by the network stack? 10:27:31 ok 10:27:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:28:13 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:28:25 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:28:53 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:29:31 H4ns: Any situation where the datagram is not passed in it's entirety but modified by router 10:29:56 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 10:30:00 -!- rickardg [n=user@c-e51ae455.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:30:04 attila_lendvai, thank you and thanks for cl-serializer it's exactly what I need 10:30:10 p_l: modified by the router in a fashion that does not make the next router's or network stack's checksum verification fail, yes? 10:30:31 H4ns: Yes 10:30:32 there is no redundancy in a tcp checksum, so it's easy for two errors to compensate each other. 10:30:53 kuwabara: can you demonstrate that? 10:30:54 Also... the amount of misconfigured firewalls out there 10:31:31 kuwabara tcp checksumc is not crc 10:31:31 H4ns: +1 on a 16 bit word, and -1 on the next. 10:31:44 kuwabara: can you demonstrate that this is a problem? 10:31:57 hans: People tend to overestimate the safety of tcp. 10:32:15 Zhivago: i'd claim that people tend to underestimate it. 10:32:18 There was an interesting google story. 10:32:25 <_8david`> rule #1 in security: define your threat model first. Do you want to protect against active, malicious attacks or just against cosmic rays? 10:32:34 H4ns: I don't understand what you are asking for. 2 single bits errors can compensate for each other. Do you agree with this assertion ? 10:32:43 Zhivago: The one with botched backups? 10:32:47 This guy was finding that he was getting a lot of mysterious data corruption in files over a certain length. 10:33:02 if the most of the resources (html, picture, css) in my cms are mapped into arrays, is the application scalable or I'll get memory problems (resources will be of 'standard' size, for huge resources I'll use a dms) ? 10:33:22 Eventually he went and figured out the odds of tcp corruption and amazingly enough it fit the distribution. 10:33:22 <_8david`> in the former case, you need a secure cryptographic checksum (in other words, use SSL). Doing so actually adds reliability and safety. 10:33:32 p_l: probably. 10:33:36 kuwabara: i agree, but how likely is it that this happens, in real settings? is it likely enough to warrant an application level change that has impact both on future protocol redesigns, on the performance of the application and on the time it takes to develop it in the first place? 10:33:43 my cms is based on hunchentoot 10:33:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:34:12 <_8david`> in the latter case, you can do a little more naive checking here and there to change the odds, but don't pretend it's actually that much safer afterwards 10:34:14 H4ns: So, when the reliability is low (say, 1 bit per kb), the probablility of having 2 errors in the same packet undetected by the network stack is high. 10:34:25 <_8david`> (on other words, use SSL in that case, too) 10:34:25 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:34:37 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:35:08 I suggest that you use the form length,sexp, and allow the length to be longer than the sexp length -- which gives you space for some arbitrary tail data. 10:35:27 You can then tuck checksums and other 'out of band' information into that gap 10:35:46 or use a (more) reliable transport protocol if required. 10:35:48 Zero overhead, no problems with the application level. 10:35:50 Zhivago: but how do you know the end of the sexp ? 10:35:59 H4ns: Most of old protocols don't care as the data is rather resistant (e-mail etc.). For File Transfer... I remember that checksumming tools became a quite common thing fast :) 10:36:04 kuwabara: The sexp knows where it ends. 10:36:07 stea pasted "asf" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73626 10:36:13 p_l: right. 10:36:13 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Client Quit] 10:36:14 Zhivago: if it's a number, you don't know if it's the end 10:36:37 kuwabara: You use an appropriate delimiter for atoms, such as a space. 10:36:45 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:37:19 Zhivago: oh, then you don't even need the length, if you don't want to plan for the future 10:38:04 Zhivago: thus it become a simple READable stream, which has advantages. 10:38:04 H4ns: Actually I even have an ebook somewhere, which depicts a real attack against SHA1 done by distributor in order to track copies of the files being transferred over P2P networks that recognize files by fingerprints 10:38:05 p_l: you know, terabytes of data are transferred over tcp every day, with not percievable reliability problems. i look at web pages and irc chats all day, and i never see the data be corrupted. you can stop trying to convince me that this does not work. it does. if i need it to provably work, i need something other than a "checksum" 10:39:12 p_l: i've read this web page that describes how a secret us govt agency implants survelliance functions into every modern processor delivered to the general public 10:39:35 p_l: this is when i started using only cpus that i have constructed myself, personally. 10:39:39 H4ns: Does it describe how to replicate and use it? :) 10:39:48 <_8david`> xristos: re lower level protocols doing their own checksumming. Historically IPv4 does, yes, but IPv6 doesn't anymore. (Ethernet also does, but you don't necessarily know that IP is done over Ethernet.) 10:39:52 kuwabara: Well, in that case, you can just encode the checksum as an s-exp 10:40:17 I want a open source chip, so intel cant dominate. 10:40:28 kuwabara: e.g., (c:chk 23432), which checks that the checksum of the previous s-exps is 23432 :) 10:40:29 the forth stack machine chips look interesting 10:40:50 odin-set: There's a crazy team working on open-source Alpha 10:40:52 when will someone sell a lisp machine like a mac but nicer? 10:41:08 using lisp to make things rock 10:41:46 I don't see much point in a lisp machine. 10:41:48 H4ns: some of the Tb transferred every day do have better checksum over TCP (peer-to-peer). It would be intersting to know how much packets fail this checksum. 10:42:12 say you got an appliance, and did lisp from bios up... 10:42:19 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:42:28 Zhivago: Yes, I like this solution. 10:42:33 sold as a mac, a nice cool desktop 10:42:33 and a big part of internet traffic doesn't really need reliability, but quantity... porn and spam are first things that come to mind 10:42:55 pr0n rules 10:44:20 <_8david`> OpenSPARC ftw 10:44:40 risc is cool, but did you see MISC? by the forth people? 10:44:55 MISC? 10:45:02 a book on stack processor machiens si out, looks like eevn less instructions and faster smaller chip 10:45:42 hmm.. I wonder how it would perform compared to MMIX, which is a diehar 10:45:47 *diehard RISC 10:45:56 -!- keramida [n=keramida@adsl145-182.kln.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:46:03 Well, risc is hard on your instruction cache. 10:46:16 I don't see much point in targetting non-commodity hardware at this point. 10:47:31 many places I do linux work use mapreduce hadoop[java] would a lisp implementation be more useful or is hadoop very advanced? yahoo uses it to crunch text for ad targeting, as does fox 10:47:57 insance amount of hardware is sued 10:48:00 used 10:48:07 Zhivago: One method of reducing cache problems is to get away with cache coherency 10:48:07 ~100 boxes 10:48:12 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:48:13 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 10:48:18 -!- don333 [n=user@nut.man.poznan.pl] has left #lisp 10:48:21 odin-set: ... I like the phrase "hardware is sued" 10:48:24 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:48:27 what is cache coherency? 10:48:29 lol 10:49:45 odin-set: Basically, on some CPUs you can be _almost_ certain that if you write to memory, that change is atomic and visible automatically over all processors and require little to do in case of I/O 10:49:58 on the other hand, some CPUs don't give a damn 10:50:09 hm.. 10:50:22 does lisp do well on say 16 processor machines? 10:50:34 do you have to get into parallel programming or exotic stuff? 10:50:38 so two cpus (or cpu and device etc.) might see different data at the same address, at the same time 10:50:46 do you have to start and run 1 interpreter per cpu? 10:50:49 odin-set: That's more of a question of how you write your program 10:51:21 odin-set: This also depends on your compiler and machine type 10:51:34 say 8 core xeon 2.66mhz 10:51:38 by hp 10:51:45 2.66Ghz 10:51:46 lol 10:51:50 with say 16G ram 10:51:53 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 10:52:11 I don't understand threads vs processes well........ 10:52:29 odin-set: 2 sockets with "two dualcores on one chip" system? 10:52:33 but can I write an app that doesnt spend all its time on 1 cpu while 7 sit idle? 10:52:44 2x4core 10:52:48 or 4 sockets with dualcores in them? 10:52:58 odin-set: common lisp is not particularily suited to parallel programming 10:53:44 oh 10:53:47 odin-set: Basically, try to avoid common data between threads or even common memory ranges. That Xeon is going to bend over from cache syncing anyway 10:54:01 odin-set: but then, you'll first need to get a grasp at the fundamentals before you think about utilizing multiple processors. i'd suggest you start with something simple. 10:54:09 ok 10:54:10 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:54:18 is there anybody who have tried to use hunchentoot in a way that serves resources reading from arrays instead of from streams ? 10:54:23 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:54:45 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Client Quit] 10:55:31 kiuma: your handler can return an octet vector to be send to the client as contents. i'm not sure if that is what you are asking for. 10:56:23 odin-set: BTW, I wouldn't recommend a non-i7/ia64 from intel that has more than two sockets, _especially_ with 4x/6x xeons in them :) 10:57:31 non ia64? 10:57:47 H4ns, I want to do so, but the question is if there is any problem with memory if file resources are firstly converted into a byte array, and then printed to the response writer 10:58:10 everyone want 64 bit 10:58:10 to use the most ram 4g+ 10:58:10 what chip do you like 10:58:10 ? 10:58:13 odin-set: Most ia64 systems that are still sold are ccNUMA, not SMP like Pentium/Xeon line 10:58:38 ? 10:58:44 so what is a good setup? 10:58:52 odin-set: EV8 Tarantula? Pity it never got released :D 10:59:08 H4ns,while the normal case would be reading byte per byte from the file stream wile writing each byte to the response 10:59:52 odin-set: for x86 compatible system I'd go for either AMD or wait for server version of Nehalem 10:59:58 kiuma: would depend on the size of the file, no? If you're going to host multiple Blueray iso's, then you probably would prefer to stream it. If it's html, it shouldn't matter too much :) 11:00:04 kiuma: and hello :D 11:00:14 zorgzorg2 [i=marra@130.236.136.254] has joined #lisp 11:00:22 kiuma: there is no "normal" case. except when serving files, i always return strings from my handlers 11:00:24 Alternately, feeding that byte to a java application, which feeds it to an enteprise ready oracle database, which then instructs your application on what to do next. 11:00:25 odin-set: and write my code with the assumption that not all memory has the same access time nor the same speed :) 11:01:01 -!- zorgzorg2 [i=marra@130.236.136.254] has left #lisp 11:01:20 how does one learn to write that kinda code? 11:01:25 wow numa looks awesome 11:01:36 H4ns, it's more or less what I needed to know 11:01:51 H4ns, even for images ? 11:02:13 kiuma: even what for images? 11:03:05 jsoft: Does the "enterprise ready oracle database" includes "will bend over and die by OOM under pressure" reliability with "Oracle Enterprise Support doesn't recognize your ticket as bug" enterprise-level support? 11:03:07 H4ns, I mean first create a byte-array from image file and then stream it to the response ? 11:03:33 kiuma: can't you give the stream to hunchentoot, and let that handle it for you? 11:03:46 hi madnificent, for huge files I'll use a dms, based ono filesystem and a git versioning tool 11:03:47 md1 [n=user@213-151-238-36.icss.sk] has joined #lisp 11:04:08 madnificent: There is no stream in first place - it's BLOBs in RDBMS 11:04:15 kiuma: if you have the data in a file, you can as well open it and use copy-stream instead of first lifting it into memory as a whole. 11:04:42 madnificent, I'd like do get medium sized data from db, then I'll stream them out 11:05:12 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 11:05:23 stmax [i=551f030b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2e14fc29357b1a73] has joined #lisp 11:05:27 kpreid___ [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:05:34 kiuma: I don't know if your implementation would do that for copy-stream, but sendfile() is one of the fastest methods to serve files as long as they can be normally open()ed :) 11:05:36 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:06:33 p_l: my bad, I assumed them to come from the filesystem 11:06:58 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:07:04 H4ns, if I have data like html files css, png images into database, I can't stream them out, I have to retieve them as arrays, then I can stream them out. I wanted to know if this could be a possible and scalable 11:07:34 -!- odin-set [i=4cae1cf9@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d47477a6c3dc2b40] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 11:07:40 solution 11:08:22 kiuma: this is a very general question that cannot be answered in general. i'd start by reading the blobs into octet vectors and re-think when the size of the blobs becomes a problem. 11:09:05 kiuma: you could, provided that the database provide such an interface, create a stream class that reads the blobs chunk-wise, if they are too large. 11:09:37 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:09:55 kiuma: I remember building a file-store in mysql/php that contained multiple BLOBS for a single file (when the file got too big, that is). When doing that, you can do what H4ns said. 11:10:17 H4ns, for large/huge files I'll stream them out with a provided dms 11:10:28 kiuma: What about storing only the metadata and storing actual files on several static-file-only webservers? And do DMS for all content this way, each filename referencing only on version of the file? eventually rewriting certain paths dynamically, so they wouldn't get broken. Scalability? Add another server, run rsync/whatever, some simple server, return only html and HTTP redirects 11:10:33 ? 11:11:28 CrEddy_ [n=CrazyEdd@114-198-60-232.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:11:34 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:12:00 p_l yes adding a load ballancer is a solution 11:12:39 -!- loz [n=loz@013.c.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:12:44 actually "db only for metadata" is used by several distributed filesystems 11:13:41 p_l: even fat uses something similar :) 11:13:56 jsnell: does with-test in test-utils.lisp not print the name of test by design? 11:14:22 *ZabaQ* experiences the joy of trying to understand macro writing macros he codede a year ago. 11:14:39 the only problem would be putting all data-files into the same folder 11:15:14 kiuma: then don't 11:15:49 H4ns, why they don't 11:16:12 kiuma: don't put them into one directory, but into more than one. what is the problem? 11:16:15 kiuma: use SHA1 for naming, XFS for storage filesystem (or similar), eventually divide resulting filename into few parts which then end as directory names in a fixed-depth tree 11:16:38 kiuma: you could name the files after the id in the database. It would be meaningless, but the relative place in the filesystem wouldn't really matter anymore as you could theoretically search for them wherever you want :) 11:16:42 kiuma: what p_l says 11:17:25 why would you take an sha1, if you have an id for it in the database? 11:17:42 sha1 I miss it 11:18:06 madnificent: Since the files are supposed to be versioned, having a fingerprint for naming would be quite useful IMO 11:18:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:18:55 actually using the fingerprint of the data as the primary key for metadata might not be that bad idea 11:19:22 (if it can be done - I'm not that much of database specialist) 11:19:45 p_l: in that case, you could use the git SHA256 of the blob, and request it directly from the git respository -> no real filebackend needed 11:20:05 madnificent: That is another way to do it 11:20:09 p_l: why not, you can choose whatever as primary key, as long as its unique 11:20:29 it's 11:20:45 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:22:08 madnificent: Now that I think of it, maybe it should be either not primary key, or directory structure separated into another table :-) 11:22:51 just in case you want multiple links to the same file without the craziness of NTFS 11:23:36 *madnificent* still wonders what usecase requires this mega-overhead solution 11:23:40 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:24:02 netaustin [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:55 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:11 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:25:14 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:25:19 drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:26:08 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.163.255] has joined #lisp 11:27:30 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 11:29:07 mm.. I've to think a bit more about this metadata thing... 11:30:19 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-179.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:22 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 11:31:44 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 11:35:02 -!- CrEddy_ is now known as CrEddy 11:35:32 drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:36:44 kiuma: Just don't overdo it :) 11:38:17 p_l, yes I hope I don't, the cms thing is getting a nice callange 11:38:27 drdo````` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:38:30 -!- dmiles [i=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:38:32 merAch` [n=none@c-71-199-20-205.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:35 -!- merAch [n=none@c-71-199-20-205.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:38:39 -!- drdo````` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:38:45 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:29 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:39:55 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:40:06 p_l, last question I when I can get a unique file name for evry resource, is there any filesystem problem into putting all these files into the same folder ? 11:41:10 s/I when/Once when/ 11:41:15 -!- runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:41:23 kiuma: Depends on filesystem. Better use a modern filesystem. XFS proven to be pretty good with read-write and directory lookup, slow on create/delete (but that can be changed with proper options, the defaults are not good) 11:41:40 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:42:33 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 11:43:07 p_l, creation and deletion is an not frequent action, but I can have a situation in which the folder has hundreds files. 11:43:41 kiuma: Modern filesystems don't have problems with directories that have 100k files 11:44:17 p_l, ok thanks 11:44:31 p_l: That's interesting what you say there about tuning XFS. What options should one look into? 11:44:44 drwhen [n=d@73-114-74-65.gci.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:45:32 Ouch. It seems settings need to be set at mkfs time. 11:45:33 schme: Increasing log size is a must, there were also tricks to allocation groups. I also use bigger inode size than default. 11:45:49 ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has joined #lisp 11:46:00 p_l: Thanks. I just found a page on it. But it seems like I need to buy a new disk first :) 11:46:08 also those mount options: logbufs=8,noatime,nodiratime 11:46:22 schme, http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1479435 11:46:43 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:21 kiuma: I'll look there. 11:47:25 Yow... Buffer-cache reads : 128M/0.81s= 158.02 M/s 128M/0.82s = 156.10 M/s 11:47:28 That's crazy. 11:47:48 *p_l* can't wait for M-RAM based SSD 11:48:34 Well it seems one has to mkfs for this. So it'll wait :) 11:49:35 M-RAM based SSD ? 11:50:03 yango_ [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 11:50:28 -!- drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:51:04 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:51:05 Now to celebrate that a lisp related book arrived in the mailbox :) 11:51:38 Magnetic RAM. Basically ages old design found its way to mass production in the form of ICs :) 11:51:55 Great.. will they store any reasonable amount of data? 11:52:11 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 11:52:26 schme: They can have similar densities to current DRAM chips 11:52:27 is delete-file recursive ? 11:52:53 aah.. so not usable as a replacement for normal harddrives :( 11:52:57 schme: And have similar speeds without having refresh cycles 11:53:18 schme: As well as no burnout like flash :) 11:53:27 That's great. 11:53:52 I can't find bigger than 80GB 11:53:54 hmmm.. 11:54:05 *schme* shrugs. maybe next year. 11:54:40 there are fast 128GB flash drives, but they are ridiculously expensive 11:55:14 -!- drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:21 but M-RAM would be a hit with netbooks and other mobile stuff - they actually use even less energy :) 11:55:32 That's great. 11:55:57 I'll look into it when the TB ones are priced like the normal ones. :P 11:56:22 schme: basically, that's the tech that originated the term 'core' for memory in Unix :) 11:56:23 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:56:28 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:56:36 ok 11:57:10 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:57:17 it was dropped because it was ridiculously expensive, as it had to be hand-made (I Am Not Making This Up) 11:57:17 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:49 Reini_Urban [n=chatzill@212-183-55-219.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:57:55 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:58:03 we still have some core memory at the university, though only for display 11:58:44 *p_l* once found a 256kbit damaged core memory board on sale. And there's some in Computing Department :) 11:59:49 but I think M-RAM will faster get on as RAM in mobile devices, with it's zero power requirement for sustaining data 12:00:11 the atmel guys are also doing cool stuff. they have their whole flash memory mapped into their main address space 12:00:23 so that you can run your programs directly from flash 12:00:36 not really fast, but very useful for testing stuff 12:00:39 interesting, freescale has created a spin off to take care of the mram product line, http://everspin.com/ 12:01:01 Hun: eh? running from flash is pretty much standard in the embedded world, everybody does it. 12:01:35 H4ns: i only recently learned that they do it without loading to ram first. i'm relatively new to the embedded world 12:01:57 i'm also wondering why one would want to use mram to replace a disk. i'd want it to replace my main memory instead :) 12:01:58 Hun: SA1100 did it, and that is now a kind of prehistory in _consumer_ electronics 12:02:34 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:02:38 H4ns: Have you ever seen a RAM/Flash SAN combo? 12:03:11 mram can easily deliver speeds in excess of 10GiB/s 12:03:47 and some SAN systems are already capable of sending data that fast over NFS-RDMA 12:03:47 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-55-86.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:04:33 s/10GiB/1GiB/ 12:04:33 p_l: *shrug* 12:05:46 plus the same reasons as for flash based SSD, except that mram based ones could fill SAS dual link at full speed without much work while having lower energy consumption than flash 12:06:15 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:06:15 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:06:30 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:06:48 -!- H4ns [n=hans@72-255-89-166.client.stsn.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:06:59 Many companies would kill for reliable 2.5" SAS mram SSD 12:07:03 I like the low energy consumption. 12:08:10 also it would extend suspend-to-ram times greatly if used with main memory :) 12:08:17 p_l: Do you have any idea if it is hrmm... how to say.. eeh.. See I have this issue now that I connect headphones to a port on the front of my desktop here. This is sadly located right next to the harddrives, and I can swear that those buggers create interference. Would these SSD just not do that? 12:08:23 well.. 12:08:29 who ever suspends, eh? ;) 12:08:46 *p_l* suspends a lot now that he got a laptop that can suspend without crash 12:09:09 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 12:09:21 I am thinking maybe I should get my laptop in working order again. 12:09:24 schme: They might have less interference... I think most of interference you could pick would be interference from drive 12:09:30 macs *only* suspend actually 12:09:31 Just need some wifi first. 12:09:42 jdz: Well who uses macs, eh? ;) 12:10:05 p_l: I think I'll just have to do it the normal way and put the audiocard outside the machine :) 12:10:11 schme: well, the question today would be: who does not use macs? 12:10:16 jdz: Likewise Vista and Win7, unless you tell them to. 12:10:39 jdz: I hardly ever see 'em anywhere when I'm out at places. Nor do I think I know someone who owns one. 12:10:41 jdz: I think Macs are still a minority. I actually met more people trying with Hackintosh than Macs 12:10:53 Oh correction. We had an american exchange student living here, she actually owned one. 12:10:57 well, osx also saves the ram to disk in case you want to change the battery when the computer has gone to sleep :) 12:11:07 So I guess one person. 12:11:11 jdz: NT6 does the same, so does Tux-On-Ice 12:11:17 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:11:23 Hrrrm... and some studios I see 'em in too. But they're being replaced by the windows boxes. 12:11:57 OH! I actually saw 2 guys back when I was at uni too with 'em sitting around at the library. Among all the non-macs. 12:12:06 Ya, definite minority. 12:12:22 But much respect to the local apple store for recommending me not to buy one. 12:12:30 students here have non-macs 12:12:37 researchers/profs h 12:12:38 a 12:12:39 I think the only Macs I had seen often anywhere outside Apple store was this old PPC601 that was left over in a classroom and those two badly damaged 68k Quadras at one company :) 12:12:42 yvdriess: Here too. 'cept those two. 12:12:42 all have macs 12:12:48 hmm.. 12:12:50 not here. 12:12:51 excuse my clumsy typing, mac keyboard ;) 12:13:09 is there a way to know what is the tmp folder in CL ? 12:13:12 on conferences, I see a majority of macs, easily 12:13:16 and in the real world (outside academia).. totally not much mac. and in the studios where they used to reign supreme they are dying off. 12:13:29 kiuma: I don't think so without doing posix madness :) 12:13:41 yvdriess: That must be a sad sight :) 12:13:44 ok 12:13:50 here, there's WinXP everywhere + a couple of Sun Rays + few HP-PAs. Maybe some Arts dept. has Macs :D 12:13:58 not really 12:14:10 I have a windows box at home, but it's only for games 12:14:14 The art studios here also seem to be abandoning macs. 12:14:27 Science&Engineering students get Thinkpads 12:14:39 But .. after they recommended me to *not* buy one I got very interested in buying one. 12:14:46 It was an evil trick. 12:14:51 lol 12:14:57 well I like mine 12:15:08 less hassle than ubuntu stuff 12:15:12 schme: The longest time I spent at Apple Store was when I tried hooking up my old lappy to 30" LCD 12:16:04 *p_l* thinks of going the same way with Ubuntu as TYPE-MOON fans go with Tsukihime anime. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS UBUNTU LINUX 12:16:31 hmmm... 12:16:37 Ya ignoring ubuntu might make it go away. 12:16:43 I'll join in that struggle. 12:16:55 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.163.255] has quit [] 12:17:18 Now though I am actually thinking of buying a microsoftOS or appleOS. Mostly because of the nice audiocards and nice software one can run. 12:17:38 schme: Wait for Win7 in case of MS 12:17:41 But the systems seem so darned complicated. I see the wife unit here sitting around with winXP and it seems very complicated. 12:17:56 (also I get told latency is shit) 12:17:58 buuut. 12:18:14 windows? 12:18:15 Ya I'm waiting anyway. I have better stuff to buy. Like a new bike :) 12:18:17 it is very complicated 12:18:17 using windows feels like walking around a mall, noisy, full of ads and marketing bs :) 12:18:22 no error messages and total guesswork 12:18:26 schme: Can I take that quote and use it in email signature? :D 12:18:43 p_l: Uhm.. sure ? What quote? 12:18:55 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 12:18:56 "< schme> But the systems seem so darned complicated. I see the wife unit here sitting around with winXP and it seems very complicated." 12:19:03 ah 12:19:04 sure. 12:19:09 THX 12:19:20 Just 20% royalty fee 12:20:00 Well, 20% of 0 equals 0, so it's allright with me :D 12:20:02 Ok nice talking to you people though. I need to go work. I didn't mean to sound like a MS an Apple bashing troll here, I just wanted to celebrate my new lisp related book :) 12:20:18 Notes from the Metalevel. Just arrived. It looks juicy! 12:20:45 what book? 12:20:52 Notes from the Metalevel. 12:21:07 lisp RELATED. 12:21:13 -!- nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:21:40 *schme* pops. 12:21:44 -!- drwhen [n=d@73-114-74-65.gci.net] has quit ["\(^^) LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL! "\(^^)""] 12:25:20 *p_l* actually grows fond of Win7. Now if he only had virtualisation support in CPU and 4G of ram... 12:26:13 drwhen [n=d@73-114-74-65.gci.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:24 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:29 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:28:31 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 12:29:08 windows 2000 was the pinnacle of microsoft 12:29:36 kleppari: Win 2k8 and Win 7 seem to be going in that direction 12:29:49 I've tried neither 12:30:00 I don't like upgrading microsoft stuff until at least three years after it's released.. 12:30:36 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:30:55 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:31:14 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 12:31:28 Well, as long as Win2k works for you. I got sick at one point of having to install various SPs and then being told anyway that "Windows XP SP2 required" 12:31:45 oh, I don't use 2k 12:31:49 I just think it was the pinnacle 12:32:50 I switched after way too many installators checked the version and refused to work on 2k 12:33:18 heh 12:34:55 which is especially bothersome if your only connection to internet is a bad GPRS connection, so you can't use Windows Update :D 12:35:14 the town here has a neat project.. 12:35:17 'fiber 2 home' 12:35:24 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:35:38 enjoy your gprs :P 12:36:48 kleppari: Oh, I no more need to use crappy GPRS. Now my home has better connection than my dorm 12:37:02 And someone started talking about national FTTH project :) 12:37:28 how do I move directories and pathnames ? 12:38:04 jkantz_ [n=jkantz@c-66-30-114-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:16 H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:38:33 (rename-file name new-name) ? 12:38:49 it's similar to unix' mv, but doesn't work across partitions 12:39:33 ok 12:39:34 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:49 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf651.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:42:26 -!- drwhen [n=d@73-114-74-65.gci.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:45:02 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 12:46:49 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 12:47:10 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:48:28 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:48:30 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:49:40 hello 12:55:02 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:55:14 is Sean Ross here ? 12:57:44 -!- kpreid___ [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:58:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:59:38 aundro [n=aundro@34.210-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 13:03:20 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:49 LostMonarch [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:07:54 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:10:18 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:11:32 cpape [n=user@p5484B9FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:56 zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-70-239-213-111.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:30 -!- cpape [n=user@p5484B9FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:16:41 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:18:07 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-250-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:59 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:22:36 -!- tihonov [n=kef@kefeer2.convex.ru] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:22:43 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:41 -!- ypsa [n=ypsa@r9dj117.net.upc.cz] has quit ["leaving"] 13:27:07 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 13:27:20 appletizer [i=a@82-32-125-190.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:29:32 ramkrsna_ [n=ramkrsna@59.160.127.177] has joined #lisp 13:31:00 man, the series code is really hard to read 13:32:57 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:58 c|mell [n=cmell@p4078-ipbf5403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:35:10 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 13:36:03 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:36:41 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:56 hsaliak` [n=user@cm158.epsilon100.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:43:15 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:07 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:47:03 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:34 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:48:08 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:48:40 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 13:48:55 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 13:49:10 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 13:49:10 good evening 13:50:09 ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has joined #lisp 13:50:30 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit ["leaving"] 13:51:33 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 13:54:39 -!- Thumper_ [n=Thumper@about/essy/coffeeAddict/Thumper] has quit ["leaving"] 13:55:09 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4916.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:56:12 Thumper_ [n=Thumper@about/essy/coffeeAddict/Thumper] has joined #lisp 13:59:18 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p4078-ipbf5403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:44 c|mell [n=cmell@p4078-ipbf5403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:01:41 I don't understand this error: Asserted type LIST conflicts with derived type (VALUES (MEMBER LIST) &OPTIONAL). 14:03:14 dlowe: the compiler has derived the type of the value at that point to be the symbol LIST (potentially the return value), while declarations assert that it's an object of type LIST (a CONS or NIL). 14:03:39 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:04:20 pkhuong: oh, I read the clhs entry totally wrong. Thanks! 14:07:32 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit ["leaving"] 14:07:49 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.235.113] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:29 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf651.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:12:59 -!- ThomasI is now known as ThomasIl 14:13:43 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 14:13:49 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 14:14:18 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 14:15:01 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:15:11 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:15:48 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 14:20:11 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 14:21:12 God this weather here is awesome. 14:21:13 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:21:22 -23F this morning 14:22:00 -31ish C for thsoe not going by farenheit 14:22:22 -31? where are you from? 14:22:46 Iowa, U.S....unusually cold, definitely not normal 14:24:54 For the first time, ever, my inner door (I have a storm door too) was iced over this morning, heh. 14:25:43 -!- neomage [n=anon@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:25:53 what do you use for heating there? 14:26:04 neomage [n=anon@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:00 computers? 14:27:23 Central heat in my place, at work, it's a very old system - but not sure what it's called. It's kinda common in super cold environments to have this issue though, but looked at a google video on storm level 1 or something in the arctic, pretty interesting..hah. 14:27:37 From an article on Deep Space 1: "CLisp was also ported to vxWorks, and probably would have been the flight Lisp but for the fact that it lacked threads." 14:27:46 the more things change... :) 14:27:59 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:40 why if I call (rename-file #P"/tmp/cmsrepo-test/website/main/bar/" #P"/tmp/cmsrepo-test/website/main/goo/") I've this message #P"/tmp/cmsrepo-test/website/main/goo/" can't be created. ? 14:28:51 gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:08 Threads is one thing I never got into much with lisp yet..well, really I haven't used it much in any language unless it was GUI driven. 14:29:41 TDT: same here, no much use for threads unless you need to keep a gui responsive 14:30:48 *ironChicken* once used them (in python) for real-time, concurrent audio mixing, mp3 encoding and netcasting 14:31:45 *ironChicken* was quite surprised when that project didn't *completely* break 14:33:24 Cel: they can be somewhat useful in a server 14:33:38 and I'm guessing that NASA had a legitimate use for them there 14:34:13 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:25 (just as well, as it turns out; derivatives of DS1 software are still apparently used, in NASA/ESA missions, which would raise the whole GPL issue ;) ) 14:38:35 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:38:41 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:38:57 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:39:35 O Hai 14:39:41 I was just cursing your name, Athas 14:39:58 (not really) 14:41:09 Xof lies, he really was cursing your ever bit of existence :) 14:44:18 fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:25 Xof: I just realized - my time in london is almost up... time for drinks sometime in the next few days? (: 14:44:32 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:44:43 antifuchs: how many is few? 14:44:49 few /-: 14:44:55 I leave on tuesday 14:45:03 hrm 14:45:16 the important question is: are you rich now? 14:45:31 not enormously 14:45:34 shame 14:45:37 -!- bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:45:41 my wildest dreams are still unfulfilled 14:45:44 drinks are possible today or Monday, I think 14:46:04 today sounds good (: 14:46:17 bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 14:47:14 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:48:12 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:46 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:03 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:49:11 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 14:49:52 fph pasted "scope and hash-tables" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73634 14:51:39 <_3b> scope only affects bindings, not values 14:52:17 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p4078-ipbf5403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:29 c|mell [n=cmell@p4078-ipbf5403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:53:41 ah, ok it's too much work to discover otherwise thanks 14:53:50 rsynnott: true. I should have said: "I've never had any use for them unless..." 14:53:54 <_3b> the structure created by (make-gamedata) exists independently of the binding game, and will continue to exist (at least) as long as you have some valid way to access it 14:54:16 yes, as long as that hash-table exists in my case 14:54:31 <_3b> and as long as you have some way to access the hash table 14:54:58 brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:58:28 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:38 Isn't there any some kind of clisp manual/documentation on the web? 14:59:01 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:11 Nevermind. It is called implementation notes. 15:01:37 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:02:26 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@9.pool85-49-172.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 15:07:16 (deftype string3 () '(string 3)) (make-sequence 'string3 3) fails in sbcl 15:10:37 why if I call (rename-file #P"/tmp/cmsrepo-test/website/main/bar/" #P"/tmp/cmsrepo-test/website/main/goo/")? #P"/tmp/cmsrepo-test/website/main/bar/" exists, and (ensure-directories-exist #P"/tmp/cmsrepo-test/website/main/goo/") works! 15:11:48 kiuma: i'm not sure whether you can expect rename-file to work correctly on directories. 15:13:04 is common-lisp.net still using an ancient darcs? 15:13:38 H4ns, so how do I rename/move directories ? 15:13:44 oh, wait .. no, it's using 2.x something it seems 15:14:02 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:14:17 dlowe: not supposed to work 15:14:50 jsnell: (make-sequence '(string 3) 3) works 15:14:51 if the implementation can't figure out the right upgraded element-type, it must signal an error 15:15:24 willb [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:16:23 it's a hardcoded check for the symbol cl:string 15:17:18 but it's interesting that it's hardcoded, because I'd argue that the standard says an error should be signaled for that case too 15:18:58 <_3b> why can't it tell the element type for a string? 15:19:23 -!- H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:19:55 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:20:09 because there can be multiple subtypes of character that upgrade to different types 15:20:42 so .. darcs's stuck in a loop again .. great .. *sigh* 15:20:53 lnostdal: using version 2? 15:21:00 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:21:17 -!- yango_ is now known as yango 15:21:20 seems so .. maybe the actual repo. is an old version though (common-lisp ran darcs 1.x for a while i think) 15:21:30 <_3b> jsnell: does this apply?: "When used as a type specifier for object creation, string means (vector character)." 15:22:07 ah, that would apply. I'm starting to get rusty at language-lawyering 15:24:22 -!- joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:24:29 though it only applies to the (make-sequence '(string 3)) case, not the (make-sequence 'string3) one 15:24:34 H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:37 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:26:46 cooldude127 [n=user@lawn-128-61-123-60.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 15:29:17 oklopol [n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:29:47 dabd [n=dabd@mouse.inesc-id.pt] has joined #lisp 15:30:26 blitz__ [n=julian@2002:8d4c:6e3:9:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 15:31:09 fph annotated #73634 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73634#1 15:31:27 just included the above, I think 15:34:55 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:37:29 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 15:37:39 Hello all. Does ucw work on hunchentoot? 15:37:54 blitz___ [n=julian@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:25 mooglenorph: no. ucw has its own HTTP server 15:40:46 fe[nl]ix: the recent doc on it implied that it could also use hunchentoot or (possibly) allegroserve as a front end 15:40:55 (I still haven't gotten round to trying the new one) 15:41:08 Ah. Interesting. 15:41:21 I'm more comfortable with hunchentoot. I need something to manage user logins though. 15:42:28 there's this thing: http://cyrusharmon.org/projects?project=hunchentoot-auth 15:42:34 though I'm not sure how up-to-date it is 15:43:23 That page loads as blank for me 15:43:48 so... probably not very 15:44:23 i think cyrus is using it. ask him when he's here, his nick is slyrus 15:44:51 mooglenorph: using ucw just for user authentication seems like overkill 15:45:10 moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 15:45:52 H4ns, idea being that I would also use it for the rest of my application too 15:46:05 mooglenorph: ah, ok. 15:46:28 With user login being sort of like an "entry point," ie my excuse to figure it all out? Maybe that doesn't make sense. 15:46:42 what's your application going to be? 15:47:01 A horrible social network. 15:47:13 What does hunchentoot-auth add to Hunchentoot? It already supports HTTP auth. 15:47:37 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-157-58.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:48:09 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p4078-ipbf5403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:16 z0d: I think some sort of cookie-based auth thing 15:48:27 (which users are generally more familiar with than http auth) 15:48:37 mooglenorph: tsk. Web 2.0 is over :P 15:48:58 (we're now in web recession 2) 15:49:04 hahaha 15:49:51 c|mell [n=cmell@p4078-ipbf5403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:49:52 -!- blitz__ [n=julian@2002:8d4c:6e3:9:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:25 -!- hsaliak` [n=user@cm158.epsilon100.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:51:44 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:51:46 mooglenorph, adding your own cookie-based auth over hunhentoot is not too complicated, I think using ucw for that is way too much as H4ns says 15:52:11 -!- Jabberwo_ [n=jens@p508EBC88.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:27 Hmm. Fair enough. I've done a lot with hunchentoot, so I guess I'll just add that to my little list of mini-libraries to support this stupid web page. 15:52:53 -!- cooldude127 [n=user@lawn-128-61-123-60.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:55 If someone could point me at documentation of how sane websites do cookie-based authentication, I would really appreciate it. 15:53:16 H4ns: the >1024 fds bug strikes again :( 15:53:29 mooglenorph: actually, you can probably just use hunchentoot's session thing 15:53:37 slyrus: i guessed so. 15:53:45 slyrus: time to find your fd leak! 15:54:00 rsynnott, which is, of course, one of the hunchentoot features that I've never uses. 15:54:04 mooglenorph: try now 15:54:20 H4ns: I'm guessing it's in the sb-ext:run-process bit too, but that's just a guess 15:54:25 Yuuhi` [i=benni@84.131.244.153] has joined #lisp 15:54:29 Oh. Yes, of course I will try. Sorry, just complaining. 15:54:29 perhaps I should just give up and switch to sbcl/linux 15:54:32 slyrus: the git link still ends in 500 15:54:35 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:54:53 slyrus: are you sure that the problem does not exist there? 15:54:54 hrm... WFM 15:54:57 which one? 15:55:17 oh, I thought he wanted to do auto-login with cookies or something, which is easy to add on top of hunchentoot :) 15:55:18 ah, in the gitweb stuff? no, I'm not 15:55:30 and it could be in my cgi stuff generally 15:55:48 davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:52 slyrus: ah, now the 500 is gone. note that the text on http://git.cyrusharmon.org/projects?project=hunchentoot-auth is wrong, it says hunchentoot-auth is about virtual hosting. 15:56:05 thanks 15:56:09 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [". . ."] 15:56:42 bbl 15:56:52 -!- H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:57:07 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F499.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:22 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2EA39.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:22 jsnell: did you see my earlier question about test-utils? 16:00:10 no, can you repeat it? 16:01:33 jsnell: it seems to me that the standard does not prohibit expanding deftype types in make-sequence etc. 16:02:27 and perhaps this is the right thing in that a derived type ought to inherit the properties of its definition 16:03:30 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@225.89-10-30.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:04:42 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:02 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:06:25 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.163.255] has joined #lisp 16:06:33 -!- akhilleus [n=joe@206.81.49.171] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:08:01 I'm not completely convinced that (deftype foo () '(bar)) should be different from (deftype foo () '(whatever bar ultimately expands to)) 16:08:36 good point 16:09:15 since the definition of deftype explicitly says that the expansion is recursive 16:09:34 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-219.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:10:05 -!- davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:43 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 16:12:37 cooldude127 [n=user@r55h118.res.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 16:12:44 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2F866.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:45 -!- fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 16:14:22 demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig108.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:15:41 HET2 [n=diman@securewlan-232-173.pns.univie.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:17:22 -!- froog_________ is now known as froog 16:17:58 -!- jkantz_ [n=jkantz@c-66-30-114-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:18:34 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-179.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:23:45 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:25:13 -!- a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:26:09 How would I use sessions to fairly securely authenticate users? Just have a username/password form that POSTs their username and password, and then marks who they are in the session? 16:26:17 That sounds horribly insecure. 16:26:40 why? 16:26:50 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:26:59 use ssl / https 16:27:02 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 16:27:19 mooglenorph: the "who they are" should cryptographically secure, not just "this is _username_" 16:27:26 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:27:45 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-212-217-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 16:27:55 kuwabara, that's what I'm trying to get at, but I'm unsure how to do it. 16:28:19 Jabberwo_ [n=jens@mue-88-130-115-226.dsl.tropolys.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:29 HET3 [n=diman@wlan-242-134.pns.univie.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:28:30 mooglenorph: generate random number, set that in the session of the user. Then set a cookie-value being the hash of that random number and the user-name :) 16:29:25 if you're talking hunchentoot i think it already generates a random session id 16:29:27 mooglenorph: actually, the username and a random number will be just as secure. 16:29:50 ... and a private value. 16:29:58 lnostdal: it does fairly much to keep the session secure, yes 16:30:34 otherwise, anyone can generate a random number, impersonate a user, and compute the hash. 16:31:16 kuwabara: the random number would be generated by the server ;) It isn't secure to let the client do anything but authenticate himself 16:31:41 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:32:00 madnificent: oh, sorry, I thought you said the client was to know both values. I misread what you said. 16:32:07 try to use a non-seeded random number :P 16:32:19 but that's maybe over-complicating the problem 16:32:24 madnificent: and I also assumed the server wanted to be stateless, which is possible. 16:32:41 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-206-243-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:33:25 madnificent: there was recently some discussion about security of hunchentoot sessions 16:33:25 kuwabara: I was aiming at: user has rand+name -> server checks if rand matches name. The server would've generated the random number. mooglenorph said he wanted to use sessions... 16:33:39 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:33:39 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:33:57 (the session is stored in memory on the server, with an ID given to the user as a cookie, but there is apparently some trouble with how the session id is generated 16:34:39 yvdriess: combine the two and you're rather safe, no? Yes, people will be able to find out which user is using that session, but the username will probably be on some page they're looking at too, so that's not really an extra risk 16:34:48 So if the username and password entered in a form match, I issue a random number associated with that user for the duration of a session? 16:35:33 yeah, and the server remembers the random-number --> actual user association 16:35:43 *mooglenorph* nods 16:35:43 ..for future requests 16:35:48 mooglenorph: when using hunchentoot: check if that isn't secure enough. Otherwise, I'd say yes. (ensure that the random number is unique!) 16:36:19 madnificent: it's fine if you don't think anyone will put some serious effort into cracking the login 16:36:22 mooglenorph: oh and you'll need to watch out for concurrency there too, although it still won't be stolen by another user, it may give some strange effect :) 16:36:28 I'm not seeing what this random number is supposed to achieve 16:36:35 if they know the username and you're using a seeded random 16:36:38 madnificent: in this case I don't see the difference between storing a random value in the session, and storing the user itself. 16:36:43 for a social networky thing, I think you could reasonably use hunchentoot's existing sessions 16:36:52 they can login on another account and then easily guess the next random number 16:36:55 though see discussion on mailing list RE security of those sessinos 16:36:57 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:01 but that's cryptography training speaking :) 16:37:27 kuwabara: when just storing the user, it can be reused when found somewhere. When using a random number, a subsequent login will not allow you to get in again 16:37:38 it's in the *session* 16:37:44 yvdriess: they deserve to get in then ;) 16:38:00 if it's not for a bank then it's no issue ;) 16:38:02 the contents of the session aren't under the control of the client 16:38:04 kuwabara: what can be used ? the session number ? 16:38:28 madnificent: the client isn't able to manipulate the session 16:38:31 jsnell: the random number must be in the cookie of the user too... otherwise it has no effect :) 16:38:46 what an advanced crypto course has taught me is that it's so damn easy to screw up security/encryption schemes 16:38:48 or see it, for that matter 16:39:28 yvdriess: hardware random number generator (from radioactive things) could help 16:39:39 yep 16:39:39 madnificent: if someone is in position to get the session-id and the username (from the cookie), he will also be able to get the random number (also in the cookie) 16:39:41 madnificent: that's called the session id, but it can be completely independent of the contents of the actual session as stored on the server 16:39:57 especially quantum random number generators ;) 16:40:27 I am currently sitting a few hundred meters from random.org :) 16:40:33 djkthx_ [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:40:38 last time I implemented a session system, I used TEA2 encryption to encode user login information (user, IP, last time accessed), then base64-d it. it worked pretty well 16:40:43 http://www.idquantique.com/products/quantis.htm 16:40:44 kuwabara: it would disallow the hijacking of future sessions without hacking in again... 16:41:28 you're right, hunchentoot does that 16:41:31 dlowe: and the encrypted data was actually stored as a cookie? 16:41:31 madnificent: do you assume that future session-id can be guessed ? 16:42:06 rsynnott: and updated on every access 16:42:07 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@p54B85081.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:42:10 kuwabara: no, never mind my comments 16:42:30 I suppose that's reasonable 16:42:42 I tend towards just giving the user a session identifier as a cookie 16:42:56 mooglenorph: See here http://paste.lisp.org/display/73450 16:44:49 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:45:04 yvdriess: quantis is nice 16:45:15 fusss, that's really helpful, thanks 16:45:50 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has joined #lisp 16:48:17 so 16:48:21 now that qt is lgpl 16:48:36 we should be trying to work on bindings for lisp methinks 16:48:37 :) 16:48:48 there are one or two 16:48:55 -!- moocow is now known as holycow 16:48:59 . 16:48:59 (though qt is not lgpl now, it will be in march) 16:49:07 oh right right 16:49:43 -!- HET2 [n=diman@securewlan-232-173.pns.univie.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:10 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:53:58 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:37 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-46-82-253-223-45.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:19 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:26 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 16:56:04 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:04 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:57:28 -!- gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:14 kiuma: if you pull cl-serializer then simple ub8 vectors are much shorter now 17:00:35 -!- appletizer [i=a@82-32-125-190.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:39 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:00:51 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:02:48 fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:55 masm [n=user@a83-132-153-17.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 17:05:21 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 17:06:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:07:44 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:08:33 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:09:39 -!- brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:09:41 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:36 thank attila_lendvai 17:10:59 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:12:49 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:13:42 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-250-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:59 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:34 <_8david`> _3b: does AVM2 implement integer arithmetic using floats? 17:17:20 <_8david`> Feels suspicious that there is no integer division at all. 17:17:39 -!- Jabberwo_ [n=jens@mue-88-130-115-226.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:17:41 <_8david`> And 32 integers must be enough for everyone as far as the AVM2 designers are concerned. 17:18:01 <_3b> _8david`: it has int only opcodes that i think behave like C ints, and it has 'number' stuff, which acts sort of like lisp, except it goes from fixnum->double instead of fixnum->bignum (or something like that) 17:18:12 <_3b> not sure about division 17:18:31 <_8david`> There multiply and multiply_i, but not divide_i. 17:19:00 <_3b> yeah 17:19:19 <_8david`> Guess it doesn't hurt -- if they are using double precision floats, I can just use (:divide) (:convert-i) to get the integer quotient, ... right? 17:20:06 <_3b> sounds right 17:20:27 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 17:20:30 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:20:58 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 17:20:58 <_3b> yeah, looks like as3 always returns doubles for divide, so avm2 probably does same thing 17:21:45 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has left #lisp 17:23:37 <_3b> or possibly call Math.round() or .ceil() or .floor() depending on which int you want 17:24:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:31 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:31 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:26:32 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 17:26:51 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Operation timed out] 17:28:06 Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:28:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:29:21 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 17:31:51 opt9 [n=opt9@59.7.205.138] has joined #lisp 17:33:49 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #lisp 17:36:13 -!- HET3 [n=diman@wlan-242-134.pns.univie.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:39:10 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:39:27 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-104-228.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:34 HET2 [n=diman@securewlan-232-173.pns.univie.ac.at] has joined #lisp 17:42:07 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:43:46 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:48:37 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:05 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:31 fusss, what does logged-in-page do? 17:54:37 the function from the paste you linked me 17:55:37 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:55:42 it reads the session value of the 'current-user variable 17:56:47 Ah, it wasn't in the paste 17:56:48 thanks 17:56:48 in hunchentoot if you do (start-session) in the beginning of any session using page (say, private user area) you can free set session variables and read them back. you don't have to worry about how the sessions are persisted 17:57:09 my bad, that's user-logged-in-p that I just described 17:57:24 let me look at logged-in-page to see 17:57:32 ah... I was all confused 17:57:46 -!- demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig108.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:58:06 btw, the markup is LML, nowadays I use cl-who 17:58:12 *mooglenorph* nods 17:58:19 yeah, I switched all the markup to cl-who 17:58:36 -!- ZabaQ [n=jconnors@194-105-174-193.ifb.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:58:47 the worst system, except for all the others ;) 17:59:05 do you mind if I write a cute little CLOS interface to this and post it as quick-login? 17:59:50 goal being ability to include a little login widget with one or two lines of code in a cl-who/hunchentoot setup 18:01:20 mooglenorph: it's just the page that has the user's private information. typically you would use it t show a private menu to the user 18:01:37 fusss, ahh, exciting. got it. 18:01:56 davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:23 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-003-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:38 fusss annotated #73450 with "logged-in-page" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73450#3 18:03:29 -!- stmax [i=551f030b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2e14fc29357b1a73] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 18:03:59 mooglenorph: do whatever you want with it 18:04:23 fusss, do you have a personal webpage or something that I could link to? 18:04:28 *mooglenorph* believe in citing sources 18:04:55 i will msg you my site privately 18:05:04 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 18:05:20 fusss, okay :) 18:06:26 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:12:43 josemanuel [n=josemanu@94.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:13:22 -!- HET2 [n=diman@securewlan-232-173.pns.univie.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:15:38 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@94.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 18:16:04 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 18:16:25 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:46 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:46 19:03:46 -!- names: ccl-logbot Fare athos mejja HET2 c|mell waterh ikki alley_cat Davidbrcz brill H4ns fisxoj dstatyvka antgreen ecraven xan_ kami-` moocow froog trebor_home stassats slyrus_ amnesiac seelenquell jso opt9 Odin-MAC fusss eno masm fph mathrick m4thrick syamajala djkthx_ ASau borism_ lemoinem cooldude127 Nshag tripwyre cads danlei` hkBst Yuuhi` blitz___ mooglenorph oklopol willb abeaumont avdi bob_f Athas neomage Thumper_ malumalu_ LiamH jeremiah roygbiv 19:03:46 -!- names: ramkrsna_ Jasko zenbalrog LostMonarch mattrepl aundro kpreid pchrist jollygood dlowe Quadrescence billstclair tarbo rdd Reini_Urban Krystof yango dmiles_afk merAch` sohail schme CrEddy md1 mgr sulo rickardg` VityokOrgUa lispm toddoon _8david` AntiSpamMeta bdowning rotty mvilleneuve Cel hsaliak wolfboy22 xristos _3b turbo24prg Zhivago benny Aankhen`` ia s0ber plutonas segv_ Ginei_Morioka thom_logn rtoym vorian Riastradh blitz_ jrockway rumbleca 19:03:46 -!- names: mishok13 asfd1243 dash__ spiderbyte JuanDaugherty rlpowell X-Scale triqon sbahra kejsaren madnificent daniel jlouis spooneybarger cheatcountry boyscared ltbarcly joast authentic Soulman__ mjonsson gz hyperboreean ilitirit araujo hugod clog @antifuchs aking pok herbieB larstobi thijso zbigniew ineiros mr_uggla vcgomes meingbg krappie Partyzant danderson hefner p_l Chrononaut z0d tic @drewc albino wasabi__ bohanlon gaja Aisling Bucciarati e271 19:03:46 -!- names: guenther1_ nasloc__ sad0ur scode l4ndfo slyrus cods maxote wgl srcerer luis _dd PanGoat michaelw Guest53748 chii Draggor bartiosze z` vsync ggbbgg sjbach_ bfein dcrawford Khisanth azuk kzar r0bby _death cmatei huangjs Thas repnop emma froydnj mqt kmkaplan andrewy jsnell Adrinael xinming proq jlf V-ille cmatei__ drforr phadthai arbscht_ lucca archangelpetro abend wlr BrianRice kidd mtd Patzy nxt pkhuong Eno_ ianmcorvidae delYsid cmm sykopomp sledge 19:03:46 -!- names: kuhzoo cYmen dfox yahooooo housel mcxx Dazhbog df_aldur Balooga_ erg mikezor felipe kuwabara koning_robot maskd Atherton djinni` locklace dto ksergio l_a_m antoinevg TDT scottj Martinp23 rsynnott j_king technik keithr johs fnordus ``Erik moesenle Fade rey_ olaugh prip_ egn mornfall retupmoca dihymo cp1134_ Mannerisky cavelife kleppari lnostdal blast_hardcheese jkantz Maddas brianj_otter karvus lisppaste minion specbot weirdo ahaas rcy flazz bobrown`` 19:03:46 -!- names: dostoyevsky gonzojive galdor deepfire @Xof 19:03:48 SBCL-OS *g* 19:03:49 *Fare* rants about tunes 19:03:55 can someone actually define what 'unix sucks' mean 19:04:06 Fare: tunes? 19:04:15 agnel [n=joel@115.99.2.68] has joined #lisp 19:04:18 Fare: is it in a state where you can actually rant about it? 19:04:22 moocow, operating systems in the unix family suck ass 19:04:34 that is as meaningless as the shit on my shoes 19:04:36 what's tunes? 19:04:39 -!- blitz___ [n=julian@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:04:40 moocow: see for UNIX Haters Handbook, for instance. 19:04:40 care to define it so i can agree or disagree? 19:04:50 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:04:52 i read that 19:04:53 weirdo: Bell Labs tried to do something about this 19:04:57 moocow: no, it has a lot of meaning to anyone with taste. 19:04:59 it was not a stunning success 19:05:14 moocow, that stupid philosophy on making utilities freaking executables and being centered on the obsolete c language 19:05:19 well i'm not looking for a fight or trolling 19:05:24 i curious :) 19:05:30 as well has having a userland-kernel split 19:05:31 weirdo: worst system, except for all the others 19:05:32 what would a 'tasty os look/work like? 19:05:37 H4ns, tunes is a rant 19:05:41 the unix haters book for example is stupid beyond beleif 19:06:10 and i haet ASCIZ strings 19:06:13 weirdo: okay i kinda agree 19:06:15 but 19:06:16 so far, all I have is vaporware 19:06:27 that really doesn't qualify as 'suck' by any stretch of the imagination 19:06:30 Fare, what's that tunes thing? 19:06:41 while it would be nice to have everything coded in lisp, if it works even in c, suck it does not 19:06:52 moocow, UHH is mostly stupid and mostly outdated, but there are a few good things lost in the noise 19:07:01 weirdo, tunes.org -- don't get me started 19:07:19 Fare: well okay, there are a few good criticisms 19:07:22 i'll give the book that 19:07:26 oh, goodness, that looks a bit nutty 19:07:31 I've only seen their irc archives 19:07:42 weirdo, see also this: http://fare.tunes.org/computing/evolutionism-slides.html 19:07:47 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-62.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 19:07:51 weirdo: so, would a 'atestfull' os then be based on say lisp? 19:08:02 Fare, it has 'vaporware' written all over 19:08:17 weirdo: tunes.org IS vaporware, no denying it 19:08:29 moocow, already been done with genera, and nothing prevents one from making a similar system on stock hardware 19:08:38 would we be just reimplementing everything in lisp ... if we would improve it, what would we emprove? 19:08:39 oh, dear 19:08:48 *moocow* googles genera 19:08:53 moocow: it has nothing to do with lisp at all. 19:08:55 isn't 'evolutionism' a term used by wacky creationists? 19:09:10 moocow: unix sucks even from a c++ programmer's perspective. 19:09:11 the UHH book was an outcome of the Unix Haters Mailing List 19:09:15 moocow: 1- make it virtualized -- multiuser, isolated processes, etc. 19:09:20 sensible creationists, too 19:09:22 H4ns: thats not a critique of unix 19:09:23 2- make it real time (optionally) 19:09:28 to be on that list one had to write an anti Unix rant 19:09:29 thats a critique of c++ and c 19:09:37 in terms of 'what an os is and does' 19:09:41 housel, where? 19:09:42 beyond the kernel of course 19:09:49 i can't really see where the criticism is at all 19:09:52 the unix haters were coming from platforms that lost against Unix 19:09:56 i mean the critism of windows isn't windows 19:10:02 criticism of windows is about microsoft 19:10:15 there is nothing wrong with windows outside of the fact its hobbled by the ms marketing strategy 19:10:22 "make it barely run, then give it away for free" is barely an excuse for not doing tasteful engineering. 19:10:26 remove ms marketing and you can extend windows to do what any other os does 19:10:44 H4ns: so fare none of you have define anything in any credible and measurable terms 19:10:51 i've heard critiques of c and c++ 19:10:52 thats fine 19:10:57 it still has nothing to do with the os 19:11:04 linux runs the worlds largest super computers 19:11:10 *yawn* 19:11:12 that hardly qualifies it as 'barely running' 19:11:18 moocow: what amazes me is that most of the critique in UHH book still stands today 19:11:23 it runs on the worlds largest super computers, so it MUST BE GOOD! 19:11:39 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:40 well it clearly isnt 'barely running' now is it? 19:11:48 so that still eaves the original question 19:12:00 moocow: i was not talking about now, i was talking about the origins of unix as a common operating system. 19:12:05 <_3b> original question = 'what does this have to do with #lisp'? :) 19:12:07 moocow, what is an OS for? 19:12:11 freebsd parallelizes better than linux 19:12:13 what can't unix do? what would it haveto do to be tastefull? 19:12:19 right, whoever put together that presentation has (a) no idea about evolution and (b) is probably a little schizophrenic 19:12:24 it clearly has nothing to do with lisp as you guys said so ... just curious :) 19:12:38 moocow, redefine the kernel stuff at runtime. run everything in one address space 19:12:38 well the origins of anything is a case of versioning 19:12:39 moocow: nowadays, most facilities that unix originally provided are not used anymore, but we still have all the brokenness. and a shitload of apis that work around the original toy design. 19:12:41 moocow: what can't a turing tar pit do? 19:12:42 that is hardly valid either 19:12:44 moocow: don't have buffer overflow exploits 19:12:45 i wouldn't be satisfied by any half-measure 19:12:46 s 19:12:52 all things have an origin and all origins become outdated and outmoded 19:13:06 thus its a case of versioning ... have you kept up with the requirements of your users and your needs 19:13:11 moocow: ah! okay, i'm convinced, you're right. have a good day. 19:13:21 "Language independence means you're proud of not calling your barking a language" -- Faré, about designers of DBMS, OS or other software who claim such 19:13:22 so far ... between runing on just about every hardware spec on earth ... it actually works 19:13:30 moocow unix was never about satisfying user needs and requirements 19:13:39 i think that much is evident even today 19:13:43 moocow, so "language independence" is what makes either unix or windows crappy. 19:13:48 some implementations have been quietly getting rid of the weirder IPC mechanisms, I notice 19:13:51 H4ns: well i'm not trying to convince you of anything. i'm just trying to find a definition of 'sucks' 19:13:57 although Windows is way less crappy with .NET 19:14:00 something that 'sucks' can be 'fixed or improved' 19:14:09 not if its fundamentally wrong 19:14:11 Fare: yesterday, you seem to have been advocating that pulling the unix api into the de facto common lisp standard would be a good idea! ha! 19:14:11 .net as an idea is pretty cool yeah 19:14:17 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xof 19:14:22 -!- fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 19:14:35 except that they only made crappy languages like c# for it 19:14:44 H4ns, no -- I'm pulling for implementing APIs once per OS rather than once per implementation+OS combination. 19:14:47 H4ns: okay so we no longer use all the unix faciliteis 19:14:59 how lame is that? c# is an unimaginative clone of java, itself being a cheap copy of c++ 19:15:03 i can take that list the original 'facilities' and see how thats changed and work from there 19:15:07 hello, folks; this is "#lisp" 19:15:13 H4ns, very different idea 19:15:19 that sounds like a critique of a pdp10 rather than somethign usefull but that is a measurable 19:15:38 so what would any of these faciliteis that unix has that are no longer used be? 19:15:38 Fare: does osicat fulfill that role at all? 19:15:56 luis: a little bit 19:16:12 luis: which is infinitely more than anything else I've seen so far 19:16:15 Fare: yeah. point is: even if osicat is a layer over the unix api, it is just that. 19:16:17 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.163.255] has quit [] 19:16:17 osicat returning the result of stat(2) as multiple values is tad... unexpected 19:16:34 Fare: do you know about the git repository? 19:16:36 H4ns, so what do you propose? 19:16:38 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:01 luis: http://common-lisp.net/project/osicat/git/osicat.git ? 19:17:04 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-128.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:17:09 yes, just checking. 19:17:13 Fare: i propose to be selective and not use facilities that non-posix environments might not provide. stat is a good example, as it was just mentioned. 19:17:44 Fare: so, say, if you need a better DIRECTORY, cl-fad is the thing to use. if it is broken, fix that. 19:17:52 H4ns: osicat has some *rudimentary* win32 api stuff 19:17:54 H4ns: for walk-directory, hopefully something will be provided for windows, jvm, genera, .net 19:18:12 H4ns: but doing lots of #+implementation is HOPELESS 19:18:17 Fare: certainly. 19:18:21 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has left #lisp 19:18:36 H4ns: some of it is even used in the cross-platform API 19:18:40 Fare: i'm just voting against pulling a large, ffi based library into a build tool. 19:19:08 unix, windows/.net, jvm, genera => that's about 4 apis and dwindling. Doing one implementation per lisp compiler is 20 implementations and counting. 19:19:17 Fare: but this is not even democracy. if you decide differenly, fine by my :) 19:19:26 be me even. 19:19:34 gah. work! 19:19:42 luis: my problem with osicat is the need for dynamic library 19:20:00 _8david [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:20:06 so I can't "just" distribute my self-contained xcvb executable. 19:20:16 (or maybe I can?) 19:20:38 Fare: xcvb is distributed as an executable? 19:20:52 hopefully will be in debian, windows, etc. 19:21:08 (when it's done) 19:21:11 why would you want an executable of xcvb? 19:21:13 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:21:13 *rsynnott* puzzled 19:21:14 currently, it's source code only on git 19:21:21 rsynnott, to bootstrap stuff 19:21:36 why do you want an executable of make? 19:21:57 Fare: because make is written in c. 19:22:01 and? 19:22:12 why do you want an executable of omake? 19:22:41 Fare: it is not meant to be used in an interactive environment. i was under the impression that xcvb is a tool for building lisp systems, but i may be mislead. 19:22:42 Fare: we can get rid of the dynamic library with some improvements to CFFI, some day. 19:22:49 hello 19:23:20 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 19:23:32 luis: ok. I suppose I can make do for now -- and eventually help integrate static objects into builds with xcvb 19:23:55 H4ns, xcvb statically builds lisp systems. 19:23:57 Fare: also, I don't see why you couldn't distribute the library along with the executable 19:24:05 it will have an option for dynamically building someday 19:24:21 luis: I could and will, for now. 19:24:53 it just means more bookkeeping to make sure the main executable can locate the libraries where they are installed 19:25:51 (and to detect which libraries they are and where they were compiled, to begin with) 19:27:04 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:27:05 the model for dynamic building with xcvb: 1- fork an xcvb, let it compile everything 2- get back a form from xcvb, evaluate it. 19:27:30 the form being a series of (load ...) and other initialization. 19:29:13 btw ... i really did not mean to troll ... i am genuienly curious about the definition of sucks within the unix context :) 19:29:38 i've toyed with the idea of one day having a lisp based os but clearly its an architectural issue than a language issue 19:29:45 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 19:29:49 Is there a way with asdf to update all installed packages? I've installed stuff through asdf, but I don' tknow much about updating from it 19:30:08 moocow: don't separate language and architecture, please -- an architecture defines a language 19:30:10 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:30:21 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 19:30:53 TDT: what did you use originally? asdf-install? clbuild? manual install? 19:30:56 interesting ... i think i can see how that works from the lisp perspet ive 19:31:03 TDT: ASDF is not an installer. Have a look at clbuild. 19:31:13 Cronos [n=a@5ad08fcb.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:13 Fare: asdf-install 19:31:38 minion: tell TDT about clbuild 19:31:39 TDT: have a look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 19:31:58 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:59 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:05 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:32:09 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:16 so 19:32:17 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-62.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 19:32:22 moocow: problem is, Unix (or Windows) define some kind of two-level programming system where on the one hand you have processes mapped to files, and on the second level you have what's inside the process, expressed in a very different way 19:32:46 -!- Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:32:51 moocow: the old Lisp OS is described here: http://lispm.dyndns.org/genera-concepts/genera.html 19:33:04 that's a little over my head so clearly i have more learning to do fare ... thanks for trying tho1 19:33:06 ! 19:33:07 lol 19:33:14 Fare: i'll google that 19:33:21 lispm: cool, reading 19:33:45 ohhhhhhh ... thats where i remember hearing the name 'genera' ...r eading 19:33:46 thank you 19:33:46 genera had only one level -- lisp. Unhappily, that level wasn't virtualizable. 19:34:08 -!- _8david` [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:12 Fare: you mentioned virtualization ... i think i get what you mean 19:34:30 luis: clbuild sounds a bit better than what I did, but what I did before was the whole (require :asdf) (require :asdf-install) (asdf-install:install ) stuff before, wasn't sure if there was something else to update what was installed. 19:34:31 processes / things running / userland should all ber virtualized and sandboxed from each other 19:34:42 is this roughly what you had in mind? 19:35:05 TDT: IIRC, you can call INSTALL again and it'll overwrite the previous package. 19:35:14 moocow: yes, and more 19:35:20 aha 19:35:53 so if i were to dream some more about a 'lispy os' ... say along the lines of what genera did ... how would one go about creating such a thing? 19:35:53 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit ["going to moon brb"] 19:35:57 what i'm getting at is this: 19:35:58 luis: *nod* Yeah, that's what it's doing, my only concern is with dependency packages, will it realize there's an up to date package of those, and install as needed - would be cool if it did for sure :) 19:36:14 mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 19:36:15 clearly we wouldn't want to just rewrite unix in lisp 19:36:15 "open editor" "start coding" "debug" "done" 19:36:28 you would want to start with some deeper architectural planning, yes? 19:36:39 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 19:37:14 TDT: ah, good point. It probably won't update dependencies, no. Right now, I would recommend clbuild instead. 19:37:18 What is the best way to deal with posix file manipulation? symlinks, etc 19:37:55 H4ns: design website, add blog, add repository, add readme, ... nothing 19:37:55 mooglenorph: are you jumping between topics or is thinking about posix file manipulation part of your architectural planning? 19:37:59 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 19:38:03 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 19:38:10 H4ns, I need to manage a wiki farm 19:38:14 moocow, I have ideas about it 19:38:19 lispm: "invent name" comes first 19:38:25 moocow, join #tunes for this kind of crazy discussions :) 19:38:38 (or, rather, the social network needs to manage a wiki farm) 19:38:39 Fare: hehe :) i'm really curious 19:38:45 fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:54 mooglenorph: are posix file handling considerations part of the wiki farms application domain? 19:39:05 ok, i'll stop. sorry. 19:39:20 H4ns, yes, because the methods that I've seen to do it require symlinking up virtual copies of mediawiki source. 19:39:23 H4ns: once again appologies if i sounded like i was trolling. 19:39:23 -!- fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 19:39:27 Fare: you're on 19:39:29 lol 19:39:39 H4ns, it's fine... it is a bit silly, frankly. 19:39:40 basic idea being... you'd want to define your API in a way that is easily virtualizable, and have some kind of "first class virtualized world" 19:39:51 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-132.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:16 Fare: i'm tending more towards protected procedure calls that allow you to define protection domains that can be crossed by one thread of control. 19:41:43 H4ns, well, what exactly can or cannot be virtualized about said "protection domains" 19:41:58 if there's too much rigidity or leakage in there, you lose 19:42:07 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:42:30 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 19:42:38 Fare: the term "virtualizaton" strikes me as odd in that context. i think virtualitry is one of our problems, not the solution. i would like my software to be aware of the hardware that it has at its order rather than have the system pretend. 19:42:54 e.g. if all your domains use the same memory pool, then one can crash everything 19:42:59 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:43:01 Fare: virtual memory, for example, is one of the biggest annoyances in my daily computing life. 19:43:06 Fare: absolutely fantastic 19:43:16 Fare: Got your email, just tested it on the entire csv file 19:43:18 works perfectly 19:43:29 H4ns, you're afraid of virtualization because current systems tie it to the low-level. 19:43:52 but if virtualization happens at a high-level, and the compiler is aware of it, then a lot of problems disappear 19:43:56 Fare: i'm not "afraid", i just can't say i'm eager to see more. other than having virtual legacy machines. 19:44:00 So, I just installed a CVS Slime on an ooold distro with SBCL 0.9.8, and upon starting slime I notice a conspicuous absence of the shiny repl buffer 19:44:06 I just have *inferior-lisp* 19:44:19 can I fix this without a newer inferior lisp? 19:44:49 danderson: load the slime-fancy contrib. 19:45:04 Fare: i'm rather looking for a system that can make timing guarantees with respect to memory access and other response times. virtualization does not help with that. 19:45:06 i'm not sure if swank will work properly with an old sbcl 19:45:12 H4ns, so you could virtualize the semantics of your system all the while having implementation strategies that are aware of the concrete setup. 19:45:19 danderson: you can do that through (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 19:45:35 H4ns, timing guarantees outside the embedded world don't exist these days. 19:45:35 luis: aah, that's what I was missing. I guess my more modern machines all do this implicitely in the packaging. 19:45:38 cheers 19:45:53 Fare: right. which is one aspect why the world sucks 19:46:14 H4ns, for guaranteed realtime, get yourself a coprocessor 19:46:34 Fare: i don't want audio outages. i don't want jitter. i don't want my movie freeze. i don't want to wait for seconds or minutes to be able to use my application again because the system paged it out. 19:47:06 oh, preventing paging out is a well-known issue, been resolved decades ago. 19:47:15 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:47:22 Fare: that is why it still is happening today, right. 19:47:24 it's just never made it in any remotely standardized way to modern OSes. 19:47:44 (except in crude ways) 19:47:56 but even those crude ways fail to be used 19:48:13 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:48:30 with mlock and nice, you can already do good stuff 19:48:49 Fare: i'd be very happy to see all the good research of the last 5 decades be applied to create an operating system that deserves the label "modern" 19:49:13 H4ns gets into the mood 19:49:22 lispm: gah :) 19:49:27 ;-) 19:49:53 lispm: i need to stop talking to fare so that he can finally finish xcvb so that i don't have to wait for compiles for so long. 19:50:19 entertain him while he fixes it 19:50:19 well, hopefully, xcvb can also help with testing... 19:50:29 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-132-11.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:51:09 I've seen that there was an article explaining the build system of the SPIKE project 19:51:18 but it was in some journal 19:51:19 -!- Reini_Urban [n=chatzill@212-183-55-219.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.14/2008120416]"] 19:51:36 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-f7ed96f3a450caa5] has joined #lisp 19:51:46 SPIKE is the scheduler for the Hubble Space Telescope 19:52:03 running some Lisp software on multiple machines 19:52:17 (on the ground) 19:52:17 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-132-11.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:29 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:53:42 -!- cooldude127 [n=user@r55h118.res.gatech.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:55:21 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-021-237.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:21 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:56:47 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-132.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:58:12 *Fare* jfgi build spike lisp hubble 19:59:02 if you find a specific article of interest, please email me the URL! 20:01:28 -!- mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:04:32 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-26-99.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 20:04:55 Hmm, I find a general article. 20:05:04 Delivering Quality Software in Twenty-Four Hours 20:05:14 http://www.stsci.edu/~miller/papers-and-meetings/97-SW-Quality-Week/SQW97-Paper.ps 20:05:32 ah 20:05:40 http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=138664 20:05:53 Tools and techniques for the development of Common Lisp applications across heterogeneous machines 20:07:47 any ieee subscriber around? 20:14:11 <_3b> jewel: does your ometa2 handle left-recursive grammars? 20:14:34 no, I haven't implemented that 20:14:57 but it's probably possible to do it the same way they did it for the JS impl 20:14:59 <_3b> jewel: ok, that would explain the stack overflow :) 20:15:57 fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:00 <_3b> jewel: also, it seems to be missing package.lisp in the ometa2 repo 20:16:03 -!- fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 20:16:24 cooldude127 [n=user@r55h118.res.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 20:16:54 luis: from its current brokenness, may I assume that no one uses osicat:walk-directory and proceed to change the API? 20:17:12 _3b, thanks, I pushed it 20:17:34 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-021-237.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:42 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-055-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:43 -!- asfd1243 [i=812131fb@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d0baf9a86e0cbbec] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:00 Fare: probably not. what changes do you want ? 20:19:51 the :directories argument is completely misnamed 20:20:31 instead of :depth-first and :breadth-first, it should be something like :contents-first and :directory-first (it's ALWAYS a depth first traversal) 20:20:56 and instead of all that, it would better be something like 20:21:21 walk-directory (dir walk) 20:22:11 fe[nl]ix: were you the one who added that mention of the git repo to osicat's project page? 20:22:23 where walk is a function of two arguments (entry recurse) and recurse is a non-nil function if entry is a directory, that may be called to recurse on the directory. 20:22:23 yes 20:22:55 fe[nl]ix: cool, but could you add a link to the actual repository? 20:23:16 or rather, recurse is a thunk that may always be called 20:23:33 and will recurse on the entry iff said entry is a directory 20:24:23 luis: lol 20:26:50 done 20:27:37 syamajal_ [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has joined #lisp 20:27:53 _3b, ometa uses packrat so it should be trivial to implement left-recursion 20:28:04 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:21 <_3b> weirdo: yeah, just wanted to ver8ify that was what was the problem :) 20:28:40 there's some paper describing how to implement left recursion for packrat 20:28:55 <_3b> some paper other than the ometa ones? 20:29:35 http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2007002_packrat.pdf 20:30:59 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 20:31:18 <_3b> yeah, that looks like the one i was thinking about... same stuff in warth's thesis 20:32:20 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 20:32:44 <_3b> wonder if i have any need for left recursion or not 20:33:21 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 20:33:22 is parsec a packrat parser? 20:33:33 no 20:34:14 does a parsec clone in lisp make sense? 20:34:33 i wonder if TRT is to use PEG or to use parsec 20:34:48 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 20:35:02 weirdo: I think it makes sense 20:36:53 where's PEG in chomsky hierarchy? context-free? 20:36:53 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:20 ejs1 [n=eugen@92-49-224-117.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 20:40:19 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:57 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [] 20:41:02 where is chomsky hierarchy in relevance hierarchy? 20:41:14 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.163.255] has joined #lisp 20:42:59 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:43:04 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.74.10] has quit ["When ideas fail, words come in very handy."] 20:44:33 nowhere, since the former is a practical and well established tool and the latter an unsubstantiated notion. 20:45:11 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 20:45:27 _3b, what are you planning to use it for? 20:46:17 *unsubstantiated, albeit common-sense (and in this case rather misguided) 20:46:33 <_3b> jewel: thinking about using it for my lisp->flash bytecode compiler 20:47:00 _3b, in what part of the compiler? 20:47:19 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-26-99.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:47:32 flash, as in actionscript? 20:47:58 <_3b> jewel: as much as possible, if i end up liking it 20:48:07 <_3b> weirdo: yeah, except without the actionscript part 20:48:25 <_3b> jewel: is ometa2 MIT licensed? 20:48:31 yep 20:48:35 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 20:48:40 i'm not much of a fan of flash, it's dog slow on unixes 20:48:45 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-104-228.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:34 -!- brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:49:41 <_3b> weirdo: not too worried about speed at the moment 20:50:48 -!- vorian [i=steve@freenode/staff/vorian] has left #lisp 20:51:25 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4916.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:51:30 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:52:09 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@92-49-224-117.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:52:43 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.163.255] has quit [] 20:53:06 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:54:25 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-104-57.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:10 elurin [n=user@85.104.214.8] has joined #lisp 20:58:25 so there are plans to include a CL compatibility layer for clojure? wonder if it would support CFFI and friends 20:58:52 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:00:45 -!- Cronos [n=a@5ad08fcb.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 21:01:57 weirdo: at the moment the Java VM doesn't support direct C FFI 21:02:32 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 21:03:15 not sure if it ever will... 21:03:21 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:03:30 JNA can do it for you... 21:03:51 rather than using JNI directly 21:04:21 assuming the functions are exported :) 21:05:01 weirdo: ISTR reading on a blog of a jruby developer that Sun is thinking about adding that in the next java version 21:07:50 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:54 <_3b> (sb-int:bug "Foo") ... helpful diagnostic there :) 21:08:08 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:09:05 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:09:31 _3b: neat (: 21:09:35 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:10:41 [ot] ruby's braindead, they have lexical bindings modifiable at runtime, how foolish is that? 21:11:07 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:11:56 <_3b> pkhuong: something like (eval '(defmethod foo ((a "broken")))) was the cause fwiw 21:12:32 <_3b> not sure if that is doing something with defined behavior or not :) 21:13:10 <_3b> actually, i guess the eval isn't needed 21:14:11 -!- waterh [n=waterh@114.143.32.31] has quit ["The Bersirc are coming! The Bersirc are coming! [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]"] 21:15:53 string as a type designator? 21:16:48 <_3b> yeah, not valid code 21:20:29 -!- rickardg` [n=user@c-e51ae455.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:06 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:14 ypsa [n=ypsa@217-115-252-250.cust.avonet.cz] has joined #lisp 21:23:01 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-055-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:28:19 lemoinem [n=swoog@x-132-204-241-26.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 21:31:14 jlpeters [n=james@97-113-29-224.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:01 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:20 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 21:36:21 _3b: where have we seen that before? (re: string as type designator) ;-) 21:37:13 josemanuel [n=josemanu@94.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:37:49 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@x-132-204-241-26.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 21:38:34 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:56 exit 21:38:59 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit [Client Quit] 21:41:37 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk120.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 21:44:42 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:44:43 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 21:47:08 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:04 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:36 so, I know of eval to evaluate a quoted form, but how would I parse a string to extract all the forms it contains? 21:48:42 (ie. reading some forms from a file and evaluating them) 21:49:04 minion: tell danderson about read 21:49:06 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``read''. 21:49:14 clhs read 21:49:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm 21:49:43 read-from-string ? 21:49:54 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 21:49:54 with-input-from-string, read ? 21:50:06 thanks. 21:50:19 why not read directly from the file, though? 21:51:09 read-from-string was just what I needed to test from the repl, but the stream input read is what I need in the actual code. Cheers! 21:51:51 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 21:55:47 -!- sulo [n=sulo@p54A3DF4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:00:00 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:44 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:01:54 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:45 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:47 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:03:37 catnap [n=tommi@hoasnet-fe30dd00-48.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 22:03:44 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:04:38 today I heard about switch(true) structure of JavaScript 22:04:57 I was a bit amused, because I have long known that lisp has very similar funktionality 22:05:13 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:05:36 lisp is propably a good language to test new features 22:05:46 then other programming languages can follow 22:06:53 catnap: what does that do ? 22:06:59 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:14 switch(true) is like cond in lisp 22:07:51 catnap: CoreReferenceJS15 chapter 3 much? and yeah, lisp is a good language to prototype other language, MIT Press practically made a niche industry out of this DSL application :-P 22:08:43 it's amusing no one implemented javascript in lisp yet 22:09:09 parts of Javascript were developed in Lisp 22:09:13 weirdo: we already have parenscript, which is a source to source translator 22:09:32 no, the other way around 22:09:36 javascript in lisp, like cl-python 22:09:54 lispm, I've heard they wanted to use scheme first but their boss shot that down and they had to come up with javascript 22:10:30 there is a Lisp implementation in the Netscape sources 22:10:34 (where 'they' might be brendan eich...) 22:10:47 done by Waldemar Horwath from Netscape 22:10:49 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:10:55 in Macintosh Common Lisp 22:11:08 that was the testbed for syntax and semantics of Javascript 22:11:38 http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/js2/semantics/ 22:11:50 js/semantics contains experimental code used to generate LR(1) and LALR(1) grammars for JavaScript as well as compile and check formal semantics for JavaScript. 22:12:16 This code is written in standard Common Lisp. 22:12:26 even when lisp is so big language, I still feel that there are some features in perl that there aren't in lisp 22:12:35 take regular expressions for example 22:12:50 catnap: cl-ppcre works for most people 22:13:00 regular expressions are a library in Common Lisp 22:13:05 dlowe: what is cl-pprcre 22:13:11 catnap: it's a regular expression library :p 22:13:35 is it equally easy to use as perl regular expressions are? 22:13:45 catnap: Almost. 22:13:48 no. 22:13:57 No? 22:13:58 catnap: it is if you also have cl-interpol 22:14:11 catnap: Perl has regexes built-in and has some special quotation syntax 22:14:47 dlowe: this starts to sound a bit complicated already 22:14:54 register handling in cl-ppcre is not very convenient. 22:15:07 lispm, does it compile to native? 22:15:09 H4ns: that's easily fixed :) 22:15:23 weirdo? 22:15:29 catnap: anyway, even though it is not as convenient as in perl, i've never felt bothered by that. 22:15:39 lispm, the netscape's JS impl 22:15:55 check out what it does 22:16:01 catnap: but if you are looking for a language with "very good regular expression support", perl will fit your bill better. 22:16:12 catnap: if you're put off by complication, perhaps you're in the wrong field 22:16:32 usually if my regexes get more complicated, i tend to write a real lalr-grammar 22:16:42 dlowe: I'm not put off - but I wan't to save time 22:17:00 catnap: there are more ways to save time than regular expressions. 22:17:09 catnap: short-term savings or long-term? 22:17:47 not learning anything usually saves in the short-term 22:17:56 dlowe: if there would be substantial gain in learning more complicated way, then I would use it 22:18:32 catnap: unfortunately, you don't really know if you get substantial gains until you learn it, so there's an element of risk involved 22:19:17 I don't really need regular expressions right now - it was an example 22:19:34 when I need them, then I take time 22:20:09 when your parsing gets complex, try using a proper grammar 22:20:15 lispm, oh, its a parser and a semantics-verifier 22:20:26 Right! 22:20:46 anyone know what the :extensions feature is from? 22:22:04 how do you intall these new lisp libraries? 22:22:22 catnap: using clbuild or asdf-install, usually 22:22:29 From Waldemar comes also the saying that Javascript is just another syntax for Common Lisp 22:22:50 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:23:13 jewel, wow, you play go? :) 22:23:51 weirdo, a lot 22:25:03 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:25:03 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 22:26:15 -!- ramkrsna_ [n=ramkrsna@59.160.127.177] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:27:38 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 22:28:28 lispm: is there no I/O chapter in the dylan manual ? 22:30:09 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 22:30:44 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:26 interesting question, I think no 22:32:51 probably that was a library? 22:34:01 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:35:50 perhaps 22:36:03 did dylan have compile-file or something similar ? 22:36:19 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:36:42 the manual says that the functions print and format0 are used in the examples but not part of Dylan 22:37:06 fe[nl]ix: not in the language 22:37:31 not even COMPILE ? 22:37:46 Russel-Athletic [n=engelzz@d174.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has joined #lisp 22:37:48 hiho 22:37:51 no 22:37:53 does somebody know how i can get in slime debugger the value of a variable i done with let? 22:38:19 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)"] 22:38:27 Russel-Athletic: You can put a (break) inside and then eval in frame 22:38:35 fe[nl]ix: COMPILE and COMPILE-FILE were part of a development environment, but not of the language 22:39:01 lispm: then how did one load code into the environment ? 22:39:10 not 22:39:24 where does one found clbuild? 22:39:32 or with a LOAD procedure from some library 22:39:40 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:49 beach [n=user@58.186.158.78] has joined #lisp 22:39:53 Good morning. 22:39:54 fe[nl]ix: this version of Dylan was mostly used in the Common Lisp implementation 22:39:58 minion: tell catnap about clbuild 22:39:59 catnap: have a look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 22:40:36 lispm: oh. I see 22:40:41 fe[nl]ix: the IDE was written in Lisp and compiled the Dylan code, which then could be loaded into a running Dylan on a Newton board or a Dylan on a Mac 22:40:57 I thought it was an independent environment 22:41:13 perhaps i am to stupid but if i try to eval something in the break or in the frame before the break i get a variable unbound message 22:41:20 the environment was written in Macintosh Common Lisp 22:41:56 fe[nl]ix: but Dylan applications on the Mac could load code, and they could for example load an interface builder into the Dylan application 22:42:06 ok 22:42:37 fe[nl]ix: the IDE, debugger, editor were running in a remote MCL then 22:44:23 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:56 so the prefix dylan was only an initial prototype ? 22:45:08 sadf [n=rty@c-98-246-9-52.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:29 -!- sadf [n=rty@c-98-246-9-52.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:45:48 hello beach 22:46:59 what's so great about allegrocl and lispworks that people use them, except for windows support and application delivery? 22:47:14 are their libraries any good? 22:47:19 -!- djkthx_ [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:07 weirdo: they have features which free lisps do not have 22:48:33 care to enumerate? 22:48:36 some examples? 22:48:57 like, for example, reliable support, win32 gui development, included set of libraries (no need to worry about clbuild, asdf-install, mudball or whatever) 22:49:46 i'd also say that allegro's error messages and repl are better than what free lisps provide, but i could be romanticizing. it's been a while since i used allegro. 22:49:51 cells-gtk seems to work on clisp, anyway 22:49:53 weirdo: allocation of arrays in static(foreign) memory, fine grained control over the garbage collector 22:50:05 hoh. 22:50:09 weirdo: ? 22:50:17 What means this fine grained control over the gc ? 22:50:23 H4ns, that's for win32 gui support 22:50:26 and there's also mcclim 22:50:39 weirdo: ok, thanks for an opportunity to smile. 22:50:58 heh! i'm pretty much ignorant when it comes to win32 22:51:07 sulo [n=sulo@p57B4B238.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:51:07 weirdo: I like mcclim, but if I was making money on developing GUI apps and selling 'em.. well mcclim would not be my choice ;) 22:51:16 weirdo: Even if I was only sticking to linux. 22:51:42 schme, why? is that because it looks so bad? 22:51:50 ah, forgot to mention that allegro has this fancy object database, too. 22:52:02 weirdo: From what I understand it has bugs creeping around here and there. 22:52:15 ok 22:52:20 weirdo: you know, to write a mcclim application, you need to spend a few weeks on getting your head bent around how it does things and also adopt to the shitty looks 22:52:23 qt4.4 will be lgpl soon 22:52:30 it will make sense to develop bindings for that 22:52:31 H4ns: hehehehe :) 22:52:47 moocow, it's c++, right? 22:52:50 weirdo: with allegro, you can write an acceptably looking gui for your fancy ai in an afternoon and never worry about it. 22:52:51 and if one wants cross platform dev making bindings for kde4.x whenver it becomes stable might be another way 22:52:55 weirdo its is yes 22:52:57 LispWorks has a feature list: http://www.lispworks.com/products/features.html 22:53:07 moocow: c++ interoperates well with c++. 22:53:07 moocow, then it's time to extend the groveller 22:53:30 kde 4.1 sucks a lot :| 22:53:37 it does? 22:53:38 dunno if it's any better in 4.2 22:53:41 it does 22:53:46 It seemed very nice when I tried it. 22:53:54 *schme* looks through the feature list instead. 22:54:03 4.1 is awfully slow, its 'widgets' ain't worth a spit, the WM part's buggy, as well as everything else 22:54:05 well its not done but the underlying architecture is more important 22:54:10 Hmm.. 22:54:15 by 'widgets' i mean 'plasmids' or whatever they call them 22:54:24 Dunno. It was not slow at all here, also neither was 4.2 22:54:26 *schme* shrugs. 22:54:29 plain qt seems fine, though 22:54:31 thats just kwins compositing not being optimized 22:54:43 instead of having a separate app like compiz handling that its integrated into kwin 22:54:55 the nice thing at this point is that it degrades gracefully on hardware that doesn't support it 22:55:00 the remaining issue with qt is that it is a c++ libraries, and c++ cannot be called from lisp. 22:55:05 the part about compiz being userland app is moronic 22:55:09 which is what you want ... acceleration if possible otherwise a nice fast 2d accelerated app 22:55:13 H4ns: How come it can not be called from lisp ? 22:55:15 it should be done in the kernel, like all of X 22:55:23 H4ns, yes it can 22:55:31 i'm sure someone will now stand up and claim that "c++ can be called from lisp", but until that is demonstrated, i hold on to my claim. 22:55:35 just the need to figure out the calling convention/name mangling 22:55:39 Why on earth would one want X in the OS kernel? 22:55:42 "just". go ahead. 22:55:44 well you would haveto write a c interface for it, right? 22:55:49 schme: no context switch. 22:55:50 schme, to make it run fast enough 22:55:58 weirdo: ? 22:56:01 moocow: beautiful. let us know once you're done. 22:56:01 as well as no copying around buffers 22:56:13 weirdo: I'm not quite following you.. It seems to run fast enough already? 22:56:16 H4ns: rofl, indeed! 22:56:24 Actually it also ran fast enough back on linux 1.2 ? 22:56:37 schme, compositing would work fast enough without opengl if done in the kernel 22:56:42 weirdo: I'd worry about compiz running in my kernel-space. 22:56:48 weirdo: I have no idea what compositing is. 22:56:48 it was already done with some Y windows or something 22:56:49 for certain values of fast enough. took 20 minutes to start on my old 486 22:56:59 X in the kernel? no thanks :) 22:57:06 y is dead as a project 22:57:06 Hun: That's crazy. it took me just like 5 :) 22:57:08 z0d, yeah, the whole 'coding kernel stuff is tricky' part is the consequence of using the C language :( 22:57:10 clearly, the solution is a microkernel. 22:57:25 weirdo: not just that. it's about security as well 22:57:26 But seriously.. what is this about fine grained control of the GC? :) 22:57:26 schme: it only had 8 Megs of Ram. it was REALLY constantly swapping :) 22:57:30 nah, the solution is a lisp os :) 22:57:44 Hun: Same here. still no 20 minutes :) 22:57:49 indeed 22:57:55 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:58:07 I'm not convinced a lisp OS is a good solution for everything. 22:58:13 -!- Russel-Athletic [n=engelzz@d174.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has quit ["leaving"] 22:58:21 schme, why? it could even run multiuser 22:58:32 multiuser?! 22:58:42 that'd be hard. 22:58:54 multiuser is a concept from when cpu's where a scarce resource. 22:58:57 why? make the OS-part of the image copy-on-write 22:59:09 H4ns ;-) 22:59:16 weirdo: I'm thinking one would need a very crafty RT GC for it all. which seems a bit of a pain. 22:59:21 H4ns, i'm talking about separate address spaces and user credentials 22:59:33 *fusss* remembers hacking on Berlin 22:59:39 weirdo: It's hard enough to get good latency on os x / linux.. I can't even start to imagine it on a lispy OS. 23:00:03 schme, yeah, there's the problem with GC, running out of memory would bring the whole thing down unless there's some elaborate scheme for OOM'ing individual threads 23:00:08 some Lisp machines were 'multiuser' 23:00:12 as well as run the GC in constant space 23:00:17 two boards in one case 23:00:21 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 23:00:27 sbclos \o/ 23:00:37 i don't get the comment about multiuser being an old concept 23:00:40 weirdo: That is not quite my problem with GC. My problem is more how the GC seems to make RT a pain in the buttocks. 23:00:41 schme, macosx's better than linux in that aspect, at least they don't have a userland x server 23:00:44 multiuser is now more important than ever 23:00:57 weirdo: How on earth did you get from latency back to X ? 23:01:16 weirdo: I see better latency on linux than os x, so I dunno. 23:01:32 *weirdo* never owned a macintosh 23:01:33 :-) 23:01:37 moocow: if you think so. i don't. 23:01:38 Me neither. 23:01:51 I'd like one. 23:02:00 i might be misunderstanding your definition of multiuser 23:02:13 i wouldn't. i wouldn't may a multiply of the hardware's cost just to get apple's blessing 23:02:18 are you saying you see a single physical device person as the solution here? 23:02:34 device per person ... 23:02:37 moocow: propably. multiuser is when one machine is used by several users for unrelated tasks. 23:02:43 weirdo: I would like one because of hardware and software that is unusable on linux. 23:02:48 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:02:49 okay we are talking about the same thing then 23:02:55 moocow, /me only sees the need for separate address spaces 23:03:01 H4ns: so how would you do terminal services then? 23:03:05 weirdo: But that is totally unrelated to the GC fucking up the RT :) 23:03:11 moocow: i wouldn't. 23:03:19 but go away with the concept of a 'process', each 'user' would be a 'process' in that case 23:03:25 But I guess smart people would get it working. 23:03:26 then you wouldn't have very much to do in a corporate environment 23:03:29 I like you smart people. 23:03:42 terminal services / remote x is SO PERVASIVE it will only get bigger 23:03:47 aha! 23:04:01 schme, what's the problem with GC? 23:04:07 in the future not only will you be doing many to one ts services but many to many 23:04:09 infact 23:04:11 moocow: good thing is: there are so many solutions to that, there is no need to invent another one. 23:04:12 parallelization? 23:04:34 the very fact of having it run? 23:04:46 schme: http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/8.1/doc/gc.htm#gc-tuning-1 23:04:46 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 23:04:53 H4ns: we have even specced out a solution where our linux desktop is running on a smartphone, and it acts as a terminal server/local thick client depending onconfig available to access or server in multiuser capacity 23:04:56 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:05:08 moocow: great. lovely. makes me want to vomit. 23:05:08 weirdo: Well I dunno how you imagine the OS working. But say we have threads or something, and a process is calling some code somewhere.. nad that world that shit is in is busy GC'ing. 23:05:10 i don't see it going away unless someone redefines how to handle multiple users i guess 23:05:13 weirdo: well you get a delay then. That's the problem. 23:05:18 fe[nl]ix: Ah thanks :) 23:05:33 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 23:05:43 schme, sbcl's generational gc seems fast enough 23:05:49 weirdo: It's not. 23:05:50 except for its... well, 'problems' 23:05:54 on the old Lisp Machines, you could telnet into the OS 23:06:00 no passwords were asked 23:06:06 H4ns: lol, you seem to have a lot of opinions on whats wrong i haven't ever read anything from you wher eyou offer a solution 23:06:12 or an alternative even when you claim there are 23:06:25 *Hun* fetches popcorn 23:06:28 well, i'm not RT-oriented, but GC only takes a very small portion of the real time 23:06:34 Hun: got a spot on the couch? 23:06:35 schme: multi-cpu -> keep one cpu free for dedicated sections (don't know what it is called in english (uninteruptable/safe ?) 23:06:35 s/real time/cpu time 23:06:36 moocow: so what? you are offering multiuser terminal service on a phone using linux. i've not asked for that. 23:06:39 sykopomp: yep 23:06:49 sit down and enjoy 23:06:50 like, a tiny fraction of a second for a minute of a busy loop 23:06:51 awesome, I brought the beer. 23:06:56 yeehaw 23:06:57 H4ns: sure but you critized it in a completely retarded fashion 23:07:03 nachos, anyone? 23:07:05 popcorn? hmm 23:07:11 its almost like you thrive on sucking air out of a discussion 23:07:24 moocow: i think it is a silly idea, in particular when expressed in #lisp. 23:07:28 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:07:33 while you are smart enough on technical details you arent smart enough to bullshit all of us bro 23:07:36 madnificent: Sure.. that is great with multi-cpu I guess. multicore / multicpu linux lets you set CPU-affinity, and have maybe just one core used for some specific stuff, and others for other shit. So that could maybe work. I'm still worried about the GC. 23:07:47 moocow: you know, this is a channel about lisp. 23:07:58 *moocow* checks the topic 23:08:01 why yes indeed 23:08:22 But I'm sure it could be arranged to get quite good, and not be much of a hassle. 23:08:29 schme: well, for things which require hard realtime, you should use an appropriate language 23:08:31 <_3b> jewel: does matching on lists work in ometa2? 23:08:46 rsynnott: Right. So what language would you suppose for that .. on a lispOS ? 23:08:47 hard real time is always, you know, hard 23:09:02 Well I'm just saying I don't think a lispOS is good for everything. 23:09:11 like knowing the exact cycle count of everything 23:09:13 and I took this as an example. 23:09:27 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:09:28 -!- jlpeters [n=james@97-113-29-224.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:44 moocow, you can work on Movitz, which is a Lisp on a bare PC 23:09:51 uh, don't cons like crazy and GC won't take away your RT :P 23:09:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:59 preallocate your storage or something 23:10:02 would depend on what exactly a 'lispOS' was, I suppose :) 23:10:06 Hun: Of course it is. Even getting softish RT on linux is hard enough, it just seems harder to do on a lispOS. 23:10:06 lispm: googling 23:10:11 moocow: http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/ 23:10:13 sbcl has dynamic-extent lists etc 23:10:17 even better, thx 23:10:19 lol 23:10:27 weirdo: Well I'm sure it could be arranged, of course. 23:10:29 s/lists/conses 23:10:30 (Thouh for true hard realtime, specialist operating systems are often used) 23:10:31 schme: perhaps it doesn't need to be good for everything. It could be good enough to allow for quick testing of algorithms in kernels (though easy access to lower-level stuff would clearly be essential) 23:10:39 schme: it's hard to get right on chip level. even more in software 23:10:46 Hun: of course it is :) 23:10:54 moocow: there you can write your drivers in Lisp 23:10:57 we right now have to make our division /slower/ so that it is real time 23:10:58 madnificent: No of course it does not need to be good for everything. 23:11:07 that the best case performs the same as the worst case 23:11:19 madnificent: I think I'd rather forth for low levelling, but hey that's me :) 23:11:45 Right. But it is all good. 23:11:52 lispm: the hardware on portable devices is getting so powerfull as to be indistinguishable from desktop applications 23:12:13 sure, port Movitz to Atom processors 23:12:25 it brings the lispos as an all around solution into question i guess, albeit practicality will dictate just going with current linux stack 23:12:32 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:12:49 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:58 not sure about stuff for embedded platforms, but a lisp-os on stock hardware would certainly make a good developer workstation 23:13:08 well anyway. time to read some more in this fancy book I got just today. :) 23:13:11 moocow: nothing stops you from embedding a CL compiler as kernel module 23:13:12 -!- syamajal_ [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:22 fe[nl]ix: sanity does 23:13:23 weirdo: I agree. Too bad development is not what one generally wants to do ;) 23:13:36 fe[nl]ix, except for the fact that malloc generally can't be called in an interrupt handler 23:13:57 about nothing can be called in interrupts. that's what makes them hard 23:14:03 schme: something like GOAL could be something good to have. At least it has shown that a form of lisp could be handy... (Yes I'd like a lisp os, no I wouldn't use it) 23:14:16 madnificent: what is GOAL ? 23:14:46 madnificent, i didn't like GOAL's static typing, it could be done better with type inference etc. 23:14:50 a Lisp for the Playstation 23:14:55 schme: lisp for the PS2. Closed source. Game Object Assembly Lisp. Built for/by jack & dexter (or something like that) 23:15:06 H4ns: somebody already wrote a scheme as kernel module. technically, it might not be that difficult for someone with a certain knowledge about the linux kernel 23:15:08 madnificent: Ok. no idea there. 23:15:33 Of course lisp can be handy :) 23:16:12 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:16:15 madnificent: Jak and Daxter* 23:16:23 jdelgado [n=jdelgado@68.Red-79-148-188.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:27 people are writing lots of software for a more primitive Lisp application platfomr 23:16:28 also, it's built on top of Allegro CL. 23:16:32 -> Emacs 23:16:41 schme: basically, it allows/forces you to handle memory yourself (somewhat C-like I guess) and allows for 'inline' assembly etc. Not too much info to be found on it, but I guess you could form some pretty highlever concepts on top of that (with the proper support for macros and lambdas, that is) 23:16:52 sykopomp: thanks, I'll try to remember from now on :D 23:17:02 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has joined #lisp 23:17:07 madnificent: allows. Part of the advantage they quoted was that not having to do your own MM all the time was a big plus. 23:17:08 ok, so here is what a "modern operating system" should provide: a kernel that is written in a high level language; an api that makes use of the facilities of that high level language; a framework for realtime scheduling; support for large physical persistent memory; a framework for isochronous media transport; fine grained protection domains. 23:17:23 madnificent: That sounds lovely. Isn't movitz doing something of the same? 23:17:50 schme: movitz seems to have a lot of manual mm stuff, and does inline assembly. 23:17:59 iirc 23:18:10 H4ns: I would guess that Minima had that, minus the protection 23:18:11 sykopomp: you know a lot of this :P 23:18:16 sykopomp: that's exactly what madnificent said that GOAL does though :) 23:18:29 unix shell scripting is not very practical in many situations 23:18:41 you can write small programs, but that's pretty much it 23:18:42 schme: which part? I wasn't reading most of this convo, so I'm probably repeating stuff :P 23:18:58 madnificent: teehee <_< sorry if I'm just echoing you. 23:19:10 sykopomp: ech nevermind. I'm all for having access to manual mm anyway. 23:19:18 H4ns: cool ideas 23:19:21 appreciate you posting that 23:19:35 i knew there must have been some insights there that werent getting out 23:19:36 H4ns: isochronous? Do you mean asynchronous? 23:19:38 sykopomp: if you'd be able to inline C too, we'd have a good start. That could allow you to import a great many of features and replace them by lisp-code over time 23:19:41 *schme* agrees with H4ns ideas there. 23:19:56 madnificent: you can inline C with libraries already. 23:20:05 H4ns: how would you handle multiuser relate issues ... you said not at all as there are other ways to handle that 23:20:12 so ... i'm going to guess 23:20:19 you are thinking a plan9 sort of approach 23:20:19 sykopomp: no. i mean a framework for handling media data (audio, video) that considers specialized hardware doing the actual handling. 23:20:26 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:20:34 madnificent: but you could also just use an FFI and use C libraries, instead of inlining it ;) 23:20:36 where the os can live on the cloud and you are loggin into a service rather than a computer ... yes? 23:20:47 cloud :( 23:20:50 cloud... 23:20:55 moocow: no. multi-user is not a system level concept in my eyes. it is something that a database system would implement. 23:20:56 well i hate the term too 23:21:05 H4ns: we agree there 23:21:08 could seems shit. 23:21:08 moocow: the system itself needs no concept of a "user" 23:21:11 cloud even. 23:21:12 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.215.45] has joined #lisp 23:21:22 cloud is so web2.0 23:21:29 interconnection with different systems could be easier when everything is written in a higher level language. But it's still hard 23:21:29 How does it even work without the internet access? 23:21:34 H4ns: thanks for the points, i agree 23:21:38 isn't the cloud more of a web 2.5 thing at this point? 23:21:40 and how to get good latency? :) 23:21:44 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-232-155.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:21:54 or 2.5.2x thing 23:22:02 sykopomp: where did 2.2 go to? 23:22:07 so if an os was written in lisp, kernel up lets say 23:22:14 whatever. it is a new marketing term for something that is very very old. 23:22:23 madnificent: increments go by .5, other versions are "theoretic" 23:22:31 thin clients, central server. brand new idea ;) 23:22:32 you could rent virtual ibm/370's in the 1970ies, worldwide, any time. 23:22:35 would you haveto support other high level languages? 23:22:53 could that be even done under such a concept? 23:23:07 moocow: I can't imagine why one would have to support anything at all. But if someone ports gcc, well hey.. you can compile C code. 23:23:19 oh right, okay. 23:23:36 schme: erm, gcc was written in, what was it? 23:23:45 H4ns: well thats one way to say it. the other way is the oracle definition: cloud computing means nothing at all its a bullshit made up word 23:23:51 H4ns: I have no idea. 23:24:04 C? 23:24:07 however plan9 probably defined a networked os as the most measurable concept of the 'network os' 23:24:21 i'm rather thinking that if such a "new system" ever becomes real, it'd have a mechanism to instantiate a x86 or x86_64 cpu to run legacy applications. 23:24:36 it does not make sense to consider interoperability with stone age software at the system level. 23:24:40 Just saying.. as long as the OS actually can execute code, well you can compile whatever code you want if you have a compiler. 23:24:54 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@94.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:25:03 schme: true, just wrapping my mind around this vapour concept :) 23:25:10 see you later 23:25:11 VAPOUR!? IT IS REAL! 23:25:12 -!- catnap [n=tommi@hoasnet-fe30dd00-48.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 23:25:17 schme: well, i'm thinking a system that can't run average code because it has a radically different abi. 23:25:22 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:25:54 H4ns: I'm not sure what average code means here.. I'm thinking it has to run some code or it is useless. 23:25:59 well its pretty clear no one will write another kernel this way ... if they do it will be a lifetime labour of love 23:26:10 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:26:14 schme: it can run code compiled by itself, written in the native language. 23:26:17 H4ns: would it make any sense in your thinking to even try basing it on a linux kernel? 23:26:19 So you could potentially have a pascal compiler that compiles pascal code => sexps 23:26:26 moocow: certainly not. 23:26:35 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:26:37 i thought that would be the answer 23:26:38 lol 23:26:47 H4ns: Well sure.. Then I don't see why one could not write a C compiler for it. as long as it compiles to the native code :) 23:27:03 moocow: i'm not saying that it will happen soon. but you don't want to claim that linux is the end of computing and any coming system will be based on it, or will you? 23:27:09 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@d54C2899A.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 23:27:12 never 23:27:24 my affiliation with linux is purely political 23:27:32 uh 23:27:39 schme: c has pointers. i think a virtual machine approach is way better when it comes to supporting legacy software. 23:27:40 that sounds like somewhere I do not want to go. 23:27:43 well financial too, its hard to pay for anything in the windows ecosystem 23:27:45 there were at least two C compilers in Lisp, Zeta C and Symbolics C 23:27:51 H4ns: You're probably right :) 23:28:19 lispm: yes, but they were not written as a part of constructing the lisp machine, but as a response to customer demand, right? 23:28:29 H4ns: I wasn't even thinking of "legacy software". I was thinking of people wanting to write C, or some other random language, for this new system. :) 23:28:48 Buuut. It's all good. 23:28:54 schme: for writing programs in those languages, other systems would be better :) 23:28:54 *I* am not writing a C compiler. 23:29:01 H4ns: the linux kernel has a thousand devs all financed and the total dev time put into the kernel thus far is costed out to about 600 mil us 23:29:10 H4ns: don't know for what they were written, but Symbolics C was for example used to compile the MIT X server on the lispm and run it there 23:29:10 moocow: please spare us. 23:29:13 H4ns: Indeed! But you know people.. are well people :) 23:29:15 why would anyone want to write C when they have an environment that doesn't suck? 23:29:33 sykopomp: 'cause people are people ;) 23:29:48 lol well clearly H4ns you can code a kernel in lisp all by your self 23:29:49 :) 23:30:04 lispm, they were limited, however, since lispm's weren't paging architectures 23:30:04 l_n [n=shawn@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 23:30:10 i don't think it will ever happen, its too big of a project or too small of a hardware target 23:30:14 sykopomp: because it is what they know and they want to solve problems, not learn new languages. 23:30:15 weirdo? 23:30:17 schme: yes. They all eventually die, and so do their ideas. 23:30:21 It's not that big a project. 23:30:24 weirdo: they absolutely were. 23:30:26 moocow: perhaps we don't need to have support for insane features. Perhaps much code doesn't need to be written. Perhaps we aren't linux 23:30:41 moocow: just a couple of ideas that spring to mind as to why that was useless 23:30:42 linux was useable with just one mans work. 23:30:51 moocow: have you ever checked the source of the first linux kernel? 23:30:53 weirdo: my Lisp machine pages for sure 23:31:04 madnificent: on the other hand, kernel hacking isn't application hacking to begin with 23:31:06 lispm: "und nicht zu knapp!" 23:31:13 moocow: it boils down to what schme said (the last rule) 23:31:21 uh, wasn't "char foo[5]; &foo[5]" crashing on lispm's? 23:31:22 madnificent: and the graveyard of failed hurd kernel projects is quite full 23:31:28 someone on this very channel told me it was 23:31:36 either that or i'm delusional, not sure which 23:31:42 weirdo: how does that indicate that lispms did not page? 23:31:58 weirdo: or did you mean "they did not have page protection" 23:32:10 moocow: so, did you see how much code it was? 23:32:13 nevermind i said anything 23:32:20 madnificent: okay good point, but the lesson of the linux kernel is that practicality sometimes trumps idealism 23:32:31 moocow: ? 23:32:38 weirdo: the paging was tightly integrated into the OS and GC 23:32:41 moocow: isn't linux all about idealism? 23:32:42 if H4ns can convert his idealistic vision to something that is practically advantagous to everyone 23:32:56 then he can actually get people to build a kernel of any serious capability 23:33:03 H4ns: no thats the gpl 23:33:03 moocow: "sure all these applications look shit, but we can compile the new version and we love it" 23:33:04 moocow, see how lisp code is orders of magnitude shorter than c code performing the same task 23:33:09 moocow: what is your point? 23:33:14 i'm actually surprised linus gpld anything 23:33:17 he should be working for microsoft 23:33:18 moocow: I seem to remember some thing on reddit a lil' while back along the lines of "so this is how you write a basic unixy kernel". I'm sure it was several screen fulls of text. All in all not too much work to get a basic kernel going. and hey anyone can hack up a forth in a day and run that "on the metal". So why not a basic lisp, eh? 23:33:22 thus, a lisp os would be way a way simpler task 23:33:31 Why on earth should he be working for microsoft? That's crazy talk. 23:33:35 moocow: i'm not an idealist. i like beautiful things, and in my life as a computer hacker, i don't see so much beauty. 23:33:38 -!- jdelgado [n=jdelgado@68.Red-79-148-188.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["User disconnected"] 23:33:55 H4ns: you seem to have a very flat understanding on any one thread in a conversation here 23:34:09 no one is saying that is untrue at all 23:34:10 far from it 23:34:19 its just true for all current envrionment 23:34:20 s 23:34:22 moocow: http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v1.0/ << here, as an encouragement. I'm not saying you're wrong. But statements like that make me think of the thousands of code-monkeys coding for projects like drupal :) 23:34:26 minus legace lisp machines such as they are 23:34:27 moocow: how about less concentrating on H4ns 23:34:45 lispm: thank you 23:34:54 moocow: what do you want? 23:34:57 moocow: can you shoot at lispm for a while? i need to get into my hotel. 23:35:11 H4ns! thank you! 23:35:11 lol 23:35:13 Also maybe H4ns, unlike linus at the time, has a job to take care of ;) 23:35:20 H4ns: can I bug you? 23:36:00 schme: perhaps you are right 23:36:00 See I'd love to have a lispOS to play around with for audiowork. 23:36:02 madnificent: try, i'm free, now that moocow has lispm to deal with. 23:36:04 I just have my worries. 23:36:19 we finally got H4ns to actually say anything of any use 23:36:21 latency is a bitch with linux already. :) 23:36:30 i'm curious if we can get more usefull information in here 23:36:44 moocow: you could provide some 23:36:56 LoL, I don't have time H4ns, was just nagging. 23:37:00 oh god, still the same discussion 23:37:05 moocow: information usually stops flowing when the trolling starts ;) 23:37:25 stassats: I did not start it ;-) 23:37:35 ehem 23:37:51 23:37 < lisp> Hey guys. Let's talk about lispOS. <== I think you did, lispm 23:38:00 arrgh 23:38:02 hoho! 23:38:03 lemme redo that 23:38:07 23:37 < lispm> Hey guys. Let's talk about lispOS. <== I think you did, lispm 23:38:18 nice fake! 23:38:26 eeh.. logs don't lie ;) 23:38:33 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:38:51 Though this got me interested in trying to poke around with movitz again. So that is good. 23:38:52 23:38 Great! 23:38:54 jdelgado [n=jdelgado@68.Red-79-148-188.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:19 haha 23:39:19 <_3b> go build a lispos on top of the vpri stuff :) 23:39:29 What is vpri? 23:39:33 -!- jdelgado [n=jdelgado@68.Red-79-148-188.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:39:48 -!- H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:39:51 <_3b> http://www.vpri.org/ 23:40:20 <_3b> they want to build an entire system from os to apps in 20 kloc 23:40:23 together with Quincy Jones 23:40:25 Maybe that there lisp CPU thingie had some niceties to not make the GC get in the way of stuff. 23:40:49 -!- HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:10 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43] has joined #lisp 23:41:12 back 23:41:26 schme: i'm an expert in dealing with politics and seeing through bullshit artists 23:41:44 oh! 23:41:47 tag! I'm it. 23:42:03 we are experts dealing with trolls 23:42:06 its remarkeable to watch very intelligent individuals act like pricks where the worst they get is honest questions that simply ask question to which the only rational answer is some data 23:42:07 moocow: I know I shouldn't. But what politics? 23:42:33 lispm: you are welcome to classify me any way you like, be perpared for a good fight tho 23:42:41 albeit i doubt you really are interested in that 23:42:46 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:47 lispm: the best thing is not to deal with them 23:43:01 schme: meh, everything is politics 23:43:06 stassats: that's why I stop now, right 23:43:14 thanks, for reminding 23:43:19 matley [n=matley@83.225.144.242] has joined #lisp 23:43:19 guys like h4 play politics all the time 23:43:29 the only difference between me and you is i call them on it 23:43:33 any ops here? 23:43:41 moocow: Well, being a pol sci major, I am much inclined to agree there with all being politics. 23:44:03 Call them on it? 23:44:19 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@d54C2899A.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 23:44:28 moocow: I have no idea how one calls someone on politics. Should I call you on the politics you are spinning now too? 23:44:34 It would get stuck in an infinite loop :( 23:44:36 yes you should 23:44:48 if i have an opinion on a topic that i have no idea about 23:44:52 But that's stupid. With all being politics. We would get stuck in a loop. 23:44:54 deadlock detected, stopping channel 23:44:58 Heh. 23:44:59 and profess some knowledge you should call me on it 23:45:01 why not? 23:45:12 actually, that would be a livelock, wouldn't it? 23:45:16 whats so special about everyone taking responsibility for the things they say? 23:45:20 moocow: I have no idea how that is politics. 23:45:25 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:45:25 <_3b> #lisp-cafe (or #lispcafe or whatever it is) is over there -> 23:45:28 Ya. 23:45:29 moocow, could you stop from making personal attacks on the channel? 23:45:41 Good idea. 23:45:43 oh jesus what personal attacks? 23:45:51 I just got so excited that it was my turn :) 23:46:03 no one attacked me and i attacked no one 23:46:11 i gently pushed to get a really great answer out of h4 23:46:22 moocow: let's talk about lisp 23:46:23 which was awesome and a few people enjoyed his input as well 23:46:49 yeah, whatever 23:46:57 I am reading here "It might seem odd to call a programming language beautiful but many people who use Lisp are attracted to it as much by its elegance as by its efficacy." 23:47:03 that is so true. It is just pretty. 23:47:49 Always remember that beauty if subjective. 23:47:50 too bad code's usually boring 23:47:57 schme: is that the reason why I can't find a good brace^Wgirlfriend? 23:48:07 doing some boring irrevant things just to pay the bills 23:48:20 madnificent: I don't get the joke ): 23:48:32 weirdo: That is why one does not work as a programmer ;) 23:48:41 madnificent: but you have GFs! 23:49:04 schme, i'm trying out writing not-boring libraries for free and using them to write commercial boring software 23:49:14 z0d: Indeed. I have a shitload of fugly lisp here in my ~/wd ;) 23:49:24 weirdo: excellent! 23:49:25 schme: was lame anyways 23:49:40 so that the free libraries are sophisticated enough to make the boring task easy and brief 23:49:42 I can not imagine computer related jokes being lame ;) 23:49:47 stassats: is GF an abbreviation in lisp too? 23:50:07 generic function 23:50:11 'brace' = 'parenthesis'? 23:50:19 My main issue with lisp right now is that mcclim seems not so suitable for me getting my GUI app to work well on os x, win32 and the linux/bsd combo. 23:50:39 So maybe there is some other GUI framework that will make that just work with no problem at all. 23:50:52 schme, cells-gtk maybe? 23:51:05 I think I looked at it. It seemed totally complicated. 23:51:05 but it's kenny's, not everyone's OK with that 23:51:06 schme: I was entering a freudian typing-mistake (does that even exist?) I was implying that I actually loved the lisp braces, but just pretended I wanted a girl. Because it is only pretending, I would not find one. (blah blah) 23:51:12 weirdo: yes 23:51:13 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.215.45] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:51:19 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:36 I am actually looking at going with some other language :( 23:51:51 madnificent, but that would be bigamy, to make parenthesis balanced 23:52:08 Beeet [n=stathis@ppp103-195.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:52:09 *schme* bookmarks the cells-gtk 23:52:11 weirdo: that *is* funny 23:52:24 schme, not sure it's worth it... 23:52:31 argh. 23:52:50 what about ltk? 23:52:56 there is a lisp tk binding that was very straightforward and didn't look bad to me (really) 23:53:15 lambda-gtk, ftw! plus Trolltech just LGPLed Qt :-) 23:53:20 kenny's code creates macros defstruct-style... and there's the issue for the lack of documentation. kenny probably wouldn't even commit documentation even if someone gave him a diff 23:53:29 he wants people to pay him to get docs 23:53:43 stassats: http://www.peter-herth.de/ltk/ltkdoc/ helped me 23:53:44 H4ns [n=hans@72-255-31-86.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:03 not to mention the awful coding style with opaque naming 23:54:06 madnificent: that's not for me 23:54:07 s/stassats/schme 23:54:12 ok 23:54:16 Qt works on win32, huh? 23:54:34 for a long time, i think 23:54:47 gtk seems so complicated :S 23:56:32 schme: really try that ltk tutorial, if not for something big, you'll get started right away 23:56:38 does CFFI create finalizers by default? 23:57:05 weirdo: no 23:57:13 do the web, you hopeless shrinkwrap weenie :-P 23:57:37 the whole thing with descriptors and other handles if a clusterfuck 23:57:39 madnificent: I will come the weekend. 23:57:51 they just leak when used outside of with-macros 23:57:59 and my code's guilty of that too *shrug* 23:58:00 schme: i have a "replica" of the firefox window in one page of lambda-gtk; menu, toolbar, address bar, client area, and status bar :-) 23:58:14 fusss: That sounds great :) 23:58:30 so ltk's any good? 23:58:50 fusss: My issue is more that I don't know jack shit about gtk. Right now I have a CLIM app, and it seems gtk just is different so there will be some heavy rewriting. 23:58:53 i didn't give it much thought since it looks like crap 23:59:35 go for webapps, you won't have to make the code portable then :) 23:59:37 weirdo: ltk is good on unix. i hack on windows and the IPC it uses with tk is not consistently working. you have to do allot of buffer flushing in your code. 23:59:44 it could just run one one impl on one unix flavor :) 23:59:57 webapps is shit. Requires people to run webservers. 23:59:59 fusss, *shiver*