00:00:16 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:37 kpreid: I guess I don't get how if each item is stored in the hash table under it's ID and each child's ID is stored in it's parents list of children how that helps? Supposing we did that how could I then recurse through the tree? (sorry I think I'm being slow here) 00:02:05 kzar: you don't store the child ID in the parent's list of children, you store the child itself 00:04:05 O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 00:04:09 kpreid: Right that's exactly what confuses me, how would I store the child in there but at the same time be able to look it up in the hash table? 00:04:15 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:48 kzar: you just do. there is nothing enforcing only one reference 00:06:54 beach [n=user@58.186.158.129] has joined #lisp 00:06:57 Good morning. 00:07:02 Hello beach. 00:07:04 hello beach 00:07:57 mornin' beach 00:08:39 kpreid: something like this? (setf (gethash id table) child) (setf (assoc 'children (gethash parentid table)) child) 00:08:53 (I just typed that in here so it's probably broken but that kind of idea) 00:09:53 hey beach! 00:09:58 -!- MrSpec_ is now known as MrSpec 00:11:05 sykopomp: hey, somebody is back with a nice island tan. how it goes? any muchachitas for our boy? 00:11:36 kpreid: Cheers for explaining it anyway I think I get the idea now 00:11:44 kzar: yes; change the second setf to push and it's just about right 00:11:49 -!- ferada [n=ferada@e179239196.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["leaving"] 00:11:53 ahh good 00:12:00 kzar: oh, but note that won't work if children appear before their parents 00:12:22 kpreid: No they shouldn't do 00:14:20 -!- naerbnic [n=naerbnic@cpe-98-148-116-245.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:14:31 fusss: heh. Had a run-in with what seems to be a dead backlight. Finally back home and ready to roll :) 00:15:40 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:08 alrighty then. 00:18:30 netaustin [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:22:40 -!- gol [n=goloo@host207-134-dynamic.27-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:25:39 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 00:25:59 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:26:43 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB!"] 00:31:28 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:32:16 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-061-109.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:23 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:32:43 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Client Quit] 00:32:44 kidd [n=kidd@80.31.136.251] has joined #lisp 00:33:04 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:34:01 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-98.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:35:43 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-015-027.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:37 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 00:39:52 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 00:45:43 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [] 00:45:50 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:46 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:49:30 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:49:36 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:51:33 -!- foobar__ is now known as prip 00:52:49 is common lips a 'flavour' 00:52:55 or is that something else entirely? 00:53:57 are there lips types? 00:54:06 lisps* 00:54:08 lisp* 00:54:33 archangelpetro: you may want to read http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf "The Evolution of Lisp" 00:54:59 can only read so many books on lisp at once 00:57:07 archangelpetro: well, what do you mean by 'flavour'? 00:58:21 dialect? 01:00:04 archangelpetro: sure 01:00:11 sweet, salty, bitter, sour and common lisp? 01:00:20 archangelpetro: if you mean "Flavours", the old object system, then NO. We are CLOS. 01:00:48 fusss: it is extraordinarily unlikely that archangelpetro could mean that, not knowing the relationship between lisp and common lisp 01:01:25 (yes, common lisp gets the umani position .. i think it's very umani myself) 01:01:38 umami* 01:03:00 S11001001: he is a systems programmer (iirc) not unlikely that he read some compiler/language papers and has some sketchy but specialized knoweldge 01:03:40 drewc: you mean the very very tasty flavor that everyone thinks is bad for you, so they refuse to embrace it, most people don't know about, and the rest are horribly afraid of? 01:04:00 dim sum 01:04:18 sykopomp: that's the one. :) 01:04:26 archangelpetro: what is the reason for your asking this question? 01:05:08 meanwhile, it's worth noting that MSG is in, like, everything. And it's sooo good. 01:07:11 hmm, this restaurant explicitly puts "no MSG" on their menu. 01:07:37 it's unfortunate. 01:07:52 I think some people are allergic or something. 01:07:52 beach: they all cheat .. 'autolized yeast' is the same compound really. 01:08:16 beach: I don't know how it went in Europe but IIRC, there was a pretty big panic in the US about MSG being bad for you -- apparently based on a few people getting headaches (allergies?) 01:08:19 drewc: Really? I had no idea. You learn something every day. 01:08:20 beach: Some people -are- allergic. And some are sensetive to its presence. 01:08:22 big media hullabaloo 01:08:37 I had an MSG sensitivity at one point 01:09:06 when i stopped eating farmed meat, it went away 01:09:31 beach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeast_extract 01:09:47 drewc: any farmed meat, you mean? Do you eat meat at all? 01:10:32 sykopomp: i was a vegitarian for over 10 years, but now i eat wild uncultivated meats whenever i can. 01:10:38 someone tell harrop about lispbuilder and cl-opengl 01:10:51 harrop? 01:11:03 drewc: Thanks! Interesting! 01:11:12 sykopomp: c.l.l troll 01:11:21 oh, one of those things. 01:11:42 the "but is it mature" argument is pure sophistry 01:11:43 fusss: you can't tell harrop anything. 01:11:52 what is MSG? 01:12:11 z0d: what makes Chinese food yummy 01:12:13 z0d: Monosodium Glutemate, a "flavor enhancer". 01:12:17 i stopped reading c.l.l because him and that ruby posting jackass piss me off too much. 01:12:20 Monosodiumglutamate 01:12:23 Ah, ok 01:12:35 mmmmmmmm glutamate. 01:12:35 What makes chinese food glisten in the light and give you a headache within a few hours of eating. 01:12:48 drewc: i love to see a few people smack them down. kaz cracked up with the baby sitting post :-P 01:13:37 z0d: the essence of "delicious", basically. 01:13:46 Didn't know it's abbreviated as MSG. 01:14:19 z0d: sadly, it's banned in a few jurisdiction, much like absinthe and infanticide :-( 01:14:40 big fan of all those things personally :) 01:16:38 fusss: infanticide & sadly? 01:18:25 clhs with-gensyms 01:18:25 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for with-gensyms. 01:19:19 fusss: oh, you mean it's consedered a crime similar to infanticide 01:20:17 z0d: msg is bad for you, mmmmkay 01:20:28 "gimme some absinthe with a sprinkle of MSG instead of sugar, and grab me my shovel!" 01:21:50 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:27:09 bk 01:27:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:28:41 what are you quoting 01:29:39 i love msg 01:29:44 Nothing. Strings don't need quoting. 01:32:22 -!- Guest89243 is now known as danlei 01:32:53 -!- danlei is now known as Guest93269 01:33:18 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:33:38 -!- Guest93269 is now known as danlei` 01:34:08 -!- danlei` is now known as Guest17892 01:34:25 -!- Guest17892 [n=user@pD9E2C702.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Ein guter Abgang ziert die Übung."] 01:36:09 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@72-255-23-143.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:52 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C702.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:09 archangelpetro: You make no sense. 01:42:51 bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:23 -!- younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 01:52:08 kidd1 [n=kidd@80.31.136.251] has joined #lisp 01:52:43 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@80.31.136.251] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:53:27 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-161.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:48 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 02:02:23 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:04:23 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.68] has joined #lisp 02:05:01 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:40 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:06:27 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.47.9] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:07:25 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:29 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:11:59 anyone know if there is a hangout for LW users? 02:12:43 wow, the least likely Lisper I have ever seen http://thoughtsandtips.blogspot.com/2008/11/my-first-hello-world-program-using.html 02:13:06 an Arab woman :-) 02:16:07 Must be an immigrant after a gender-changing surgery. 02:17:10 no need for immigration, i'm arab too :-) 02:17:34 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.68] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:17:36 and with a pair of scissors i can double the population of sista lispers :-P 02:18:16 so pink 02:18:49 ... Lisp knows no boundaries? :P 02:19:09 Yes, the next thing will be a Lisper dog. 02:20:38 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.68] has joined #lisp 02:20:45 fusss: oh, by the way. After crawling through AMOP (again), I figure it's just not worth the trouble to try and implement the prototype system with CLOS >:( 02:20:46 well, who knows, next century looks like we will get those too 02:20:47 or a Cat.... 02:20:59 fusss, where are you from? 02:21:02 z0d: I think catgirls will be faster :P 02:21:06 even if it -is- practically doable, it's way over my head, and probably more convoluted than it's worth putting time into. 02:22:44 sbahra: somali yemeni 02:23:00 fusss, living in the Arab world? 02:23:09 No. Apparently, living in DC? 02:23:27 sbahra: pvt msg pls? 02:23:36 *sbahra* is in DC and Arab, also 02:23:43 fusss, sure. 02:23:44 HOLLY CRAP! 02:23:51 hell friken froze over 02:24:01 lisp is popular now? 02:24:14 *sbahra* doesn't know enough LISP to count as knowing LISP 02:24:32 But soon, that will change. :-P 02:25:04 I've been reading PAIP. It's wonderful :) 02:28:46 sykopomp: there is a prototype system for lisp 02:29:00 sykopomp: i think its called clon 02:29:26 syamajala: I've seen CLON, and also an older prototype system (ORBIT, was it?) 02:30:02 but I'm looking for something more CLOSy. I already have part of an unoptimized implementation, and I know how to do multimethods, just gotta write that part of it now. 02:30:14 i thought about trying to implement a prototype system too, i was reading about it on c.l.l the other day 02:30:15 I was looking into writing it with the MOP for a while, but kept running into big question marks. 02:31:25 maybe i should take a look at how clon is implemented 02:31:30 c.l.l. seems pretty unsupportive of a prototype system. The thread I saw had Pascal shooting down the idea pretty quickly. 02:31:59 clon is actually a really simple implementation. It's a single file: single inheritance, a single-dispatch message passing model, structs for the objects 02:32:12 was it this thread? 02:32:13 http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2004-10/2568.html 02:32:15 and a reader macro using [] for implementing the message passing. 02:32:22 yeah, that one 02:32:32 oh 02:32:45 and in a way I agree with Pascal, there's a lot of things out there that classes are really fine and dandy for, maybe even preferable. 02:32:55 and classes are much easier to optimize (it seems...) 02:33:49 but I can't possibly have what I need with a class-based model, and it seems like the MOP can't accomodate either (or I wouldn't be able to jump through all the hoops in order to make it do so) 02:34:25 so your trying to implement it on top of clos? 02:34:50 I'm using CLOS as a backend for it, yes, so I can sort of have a MOP for it from the get-go. 02:35:06 ah ok 02:35:11 but with what I'm doing, I could just write it using structs (probably will, actually) 02:35:21 s/write/rewrite/ 02:35:43 yeah i was gonna try to doing it with clos because i remember reading something about it in that thread 02:36:07 I still need to implement the method model, though :) 02:36:32 i need to actually finish reading amop 02:36:43 and learn more about prototype based stuff 02:36:51 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 02:37:03 that's kind of the biggest kick in the nads: I need to write a method thing from scratch that won't be necessarily compatible with generic functions. 02:37:34 hmm 02:38:44 http://github.com/sykopomp/sheeple/tree/master This is what I've done so far. It's not much, but some parts of it work, which is exciting :) 02:40:58 lets see if i read/understand it 02:41:18 you can just read packages.lisp if you want to look over the interface :) 02:41:24 it's pretty straightforward :P 02:41:45 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:42:13 fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:56 gcv [n=gcv@67.97.51.80] has joined #lisp 02:46:11 is there 'wget' code somewhere, aserve:do-http-request doesn't save the fetch 02:46:29 -!- gcv [n=gcv@67.97.51.80] has quit [Client Quit] 02:46:33 gcv [n=gcv@67.97.51.80] has joined #lisp 02:47:42 -!- gcv [n=gcv@67.97.51.80] has quit [Client Quit] 02:47:45 fph: http://common-lisp.net/project/trivial-http/ 02:48:05 ah, thank you 02:48:19 sykopomp: i need to read more about prototype programming, i haven't actually read anything other than that c.l.l thread ;-p 02:48:29 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 02:49:00 syamajala: the nicest thing is that they're really flexible. 02:49:10 incredibly so. 02:49:14 hopefully wikipedia will get me up to speed 02:49:23 search for Io (programming language) 02:49:32 also LPC, and JavaScript. 02:50:15 http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/10/universal-design-pattern.html This is a pretty popular yegge post about it, although I think it should be taken with a grain of salt (as with any yegge post...) 02:50:57 l_n [n=Not@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 02:51:54 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:52:01 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:04 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:23 mmmm ... salted yegge... arghhhhhh 02:59:22 -!- dfox__ is now known as dfox 03:00:17 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:03:27 ok i kinda have a better idea of what this all about 03:04:19 sykopomp: so the problem is with method dispatch? 03:04:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_(programming_language) Also slate :) 03:05:01 most prototype object systems out there use single-dispatch methods, because it's actually a bit tricky to have a multimethod system that works well with prototypes. 03:05:03 "It was once featured on Slashdot" ;-O 03:05:43 so was Paris Hilton 03:06:27 s/Slate/Slut/? 03:06:44 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [] 03:06:54 there probably is such a Wikipedia entry 03:07:02 hmm 03:12:01 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 03:12:39 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:12:58 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:24 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:46 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:15:51 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 03:15:54 fph: drakma is a complete http client 03:16:14 yes, that is mentioned on the trivial-http page, might need it later 03:16:20 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p6705fb.tkyoea03.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 03:17:00 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:17:13 Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 03:18:10 appletizer [i=a@82-32-123-68.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:18:20 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 03:19:01 sykopomp: your right clon isn't very lispy 03:19:11 it actually feels horrible. 03:19:32 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:20:44 sykopomp: ORBIT was the T compiler. I think you mean Corbit 03:23:09 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:31 corbit it is, I think, yes. 03:24:33 -!- elurin [n=user@88.224.46.85] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:25:15 sykopomp: have you talked to dto? 03:25:49 he wrote clon... 03:26:11 syamajala: I have, yes. 03:26:16 oh 03:26:28 clon works fine for him, but not quite for me. 03:26:31 hence sheeple 03:27:03 but hey, at least clon is actually written, you know? ;) I think that in itself is worth a lot more than a big dream with a cheeky name :3 03:27:15 heh 03:27:21 well i'm interested! 03:27:41 heh :P 03:28:00 what is the LW equivalent of M-x uncomment-region? 03:28:01 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-166.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 03:28:04 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #lisp 03:30:08 Does anyone here know of any good data structures / algorithms for 3d space subdivision? I've been having difficulty in finding information on a top-down approach to balancing an octree. 03:31:01 It's out there. And the algorithm for the top-down approach yields a sub-optimal balanced tree, but I can't work bottom up. 03:31:07 hehe, trivial-http is just a layer over perl GET (which I had already) 03:33:49 fph: I don't think so. 03:33:57 read the source 03:34:19 fph: Done that. 03:34:46 just did, it calls the /usr/bin/GET proggie, and guess what that 03:34:53 is 03:35:05 fph: The source is too long to only call a simple shell command 03:35:55 fph: I see no such call. Are we talking about the same thing? trivial-http at http://common-lisp.net/project/trivial-http/ ? 03:35:58 line 96 in trivial-http.lisp 03:36:23 oh wait, I've been fooled by the older version 03:38:26 dogulus [n=dogulus@c-98-232-168-153.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:37 -!- dogulus [n=dogulus@c-98-232-168-153.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:41:10 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-166.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:44:44 time to sleep 03:45:05 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:46:04 jso, isn't that what a computer game graphics engine must have ? 03:47:44 Nope. Not necessarily. They frequently work with unbalanced octrees. If you have a large static environment one can precompute bottom up a static octree and then insert into that tree the dynamic portions. 03:48:29 Unfortunately I'm trying to work with a large body of samples coming from a robot in real time. Since the samples aren't known in advance I can't really work bottom up very well. 03:48:49 are there good 2D solutions? 03:49:26 Quadtrees aren't much better in this regard. My robot is an aerial vehicle, so 2D is insufficient for what I am using it for. 03:49:40 I know, not the point of question. 03:49:47 you cannot expand a 2D solution? 03:50:08 and you probably want 6D for aerial 03:50:13 If it were that easy, one would start off with an AVL or Splay tree and expand that to 2D then to 3D. 03:50:47 No, 3D will be sufficient. The end result will be a posterior estimate for a particle filter. 03:50:52 For position only. 03:51:01 other stuff gets to move too 03:51:12 sykopomp: hello 03:51:18 dto: heya 03:51:19 why would balance be important? 03:51:25 Not in the controlled environment. 03:51:27 dto: how goes? 03:51:48 not bad, my mode-line lit up earlier and i just checked it. sounds like you are doing an object system? 03:52:10 cool 03:52:25 fph: I'm concerned that the octree will spend a considerable amount of time in the worst case, which is no advantage above a linear search. 03:52:27 yeah clon really isn't suitable for general consumption 03:52:34 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:49 dto: toying with it. Lots of head-scratching going on, and a deep feeling of sigh-I-can't-do-this-why-am-I-trying-this-is-a-bad-idea. 03:53:16 sometimes you have to spend the time on an approach, just to learn something that will make life better 03:53:36 yeah. Likewise, my current plans for sheeple aren't really meant entirely to be for general consumption, although I find it fun to toy with what I already have :P 03:53:46 there's something about prototype systems that just scream "play with me" 03:54:42 then since some of the time, you will be faster than a linear search, overall you are faster 03:55:36 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 03:56:39 fph: Yeah. I've been considering an approach where I'd go with a standard octree initially and after a given number of inserts I'd recompute the octree using a bottom up approach. 03:57:10 well, that seems like a start. Ready Fire Aim work too 03:57:22 s/work/works/ 03:57:37 Slime hung so many times with this error message. http://paste.lisp.org/display/73410 Any idea why this happens? I think it started after upgrading my OS to Ubuntu 8.10. 03:57:59 a new slime? 03:58:10 sykopomp: i'm going to keep CLON in production because it works and is reasonably stable, and also makes a half decent resume code example for the CV (short and documented) but probably not use it for new projects. for example i'm revisiting Eon (the elisp object system that spawned CLON) and i'm doing it with a more restricted class-based approach 03:58:17 but, similar syntaxs 03:58:36 ah 03:59:04 I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by the requirements I've put on what a working version of sheeple would be :( 03:59:45 but CLON seems fine enough for the purpose you were using it for 03:59:54 anything in particular that made you decide to stop? 04:01:09 i hit a "specification bug" where something was not properly defined in my head, and this turned out to make something not work, so i had to add a function that makes it (currently) work but may not work for all cases. 04:01:10 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:01:48 it's probably not fatal but set against CLOS these kind of conceptual bugs are inexcusable :) 04:01:54 i'll probably not mention it at my speech 04:02:03 btw i'll be making the screencast and audio available 04:02:13 um, if someone can host it 04:03:35 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:04:05 there are some lisp video hosts, been mentioned on c.l.l. sometime 04:05:28 yeah i'm sure someone from the conference can help me find 04:05:29 hosting 04:05:29 I just found out the problem is only in emacs 23. damn.. http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/2008-November/015695.html 04:06:22 what did v 23 add over v 22 in emacs ? 04:06:40 dto: what speech? O.o 04:07:39 tihonov [n=kef@kefeer2.convex.ru] has joined #lisp 04:08:20 fph: I use it for anti-alias fonts. 04:09:24 sykopomp: http://fare.livejournal.com/138088.html 04:09:51 hey! 04:09:59 I'll most likely meet you, then. 04:10:03 I'm planning on going to that one :) 04:10:25 hey cool 04:10:52 I live over in western mass :) 04:11:01 it's quiet out there 04:11:17 not when you're 5 minutes away from UMass Amderst 04:11:21 and 4 other colleges 04:11:23 :} 04:11:34 ah ok,,, not FAR wester 04:11:35 western 04:12:00 hehe, I used to work out at the Five Colleges experimental site, lots of trees 04:12:39 it's gonna be a bit sad moving out of the area. MA is such a scene :) 04:12:40 experimental? like, alien fetuses in jars and stuff? 04:12:42 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:12:47 sykopomp: where you moving to 04:13:10 radio telescope on a spit of land in a large body of water 04:13:48 Hawaii? 04:13:54 did that too :-) 04:14:08 dto: the most likely places are Minnesota and Puerto Rico 04:14:22 although I guess Boston is a distant third. I really won't know until sometime in the summer. 04:16:20 wow. I'm an idiot. 04:17:01 I'm gonna give this prototype thing a break. Geez. 04:20:17 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 04:20:28 DavidSJ [n=david@146.115.53.11] has joined #lisp 04:21:20 hey all 04:21:29 Anyone know if SBCL's allocation profiling actually works? 04:22:14 fun times! something in my code is putting random "NIL"s in my sql database 04:22:45 isn't that the default entry ? 04:30:55 tihonov1 [n=kef@kefeer2.convex.ru] has joined #lisp 04:30:55 -!- tihonov1 [n=kef@kefeer2.convex.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 04:34:08 dto: by the way... this design issue you were talking about. What was it? 04:34:18 the conceptual bug 04:37:24 proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 04:38:25 jso: You are programming a flying AI? 04:39:30 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:40:17 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 04:42:40 sykopomp: i had not properly defined what it means to invoke the "superclass's" version of a method. it didn't work properly so i introduced a hack that does a linear search to find the nth previously defined method 04:43:16 z0d: done :-) 04:43:16 clean up time 04:43:26 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:43:37 for now it absolutely has no security. anybody can post anything. 04:43:47 the URL heirarchy is fucked up 04:44:21 all generated html is contained invarious DIVs, almost too many of them, and there is no CSS for decent presentation :-P 04:44:27 p_l: Yeah. I'm the lead programmer for a UAV. 04:45:09 recon, armed or other? 04:45:34 sykopomp: and i have reason to believe it will break in some situations 04:45:40 Other. Its an academic research project. 04:46:08 sykopomp: because what if an object wants to invoke its parents version of the method, and then ThAT one wants to do the same... right now it works but there might be some edge cases that will suck to handle 04:46:08 jso: Any certain purpose or are you trying to make a general flight control AI? 04:46:15 funded by the US Army, but we don't do anything that is particular to a military purpose. 04:46:43 Well, military funding is probably the only thing that goes well in USA 04:46:57 dto: why not just do a search for the next-most-specific method up the inheritance chain? 04:47:38 that's what i'm doing roughly and it works 04:47:43 p_l: Kinda sorta. We're gearing up to compete in the International Aerial Robotics Competition (IARC). It has to do with navigating autonomously within a building without satellite geostationary positioning and navigating through the building. 04:47:44 but might break 04:47:45 hold on 04:47:48 If we had _any_ funding, we wouldn't have to see british steal the project proceeded by hearing everyone "ooh" and "aahs" about how good it is 04:48:06 Haha. What are you working on? 04:48:28 jso: Not me, my father. UAV based on COTS hw 04:48:56 the vehicle is a lightweight self-launching glider 04:49:08 cheat, get a map of the building ahead of time 04:49:13 play with my hunchentoot blog :-P http://70.187.234.43:8080/blog 04:49:17 be nice :-) 04:49:30 cheapest recon UAV in Europe if not in the whole world :P 04:49:33 Ah. There is a lot of interest in this field. I'm excited because it requires that we must bring a lot of things together to keep it from crashing, let alone accomplish the goal. Its a ton of fun. 04:49:45 sykopomp: line 309 and following. watch out, github's indentation is broken , might want to click the raw link, or use a local file 04:49:58 p_l: Does it have a name? 04:50:01 it was a problem to keep them from crashing 15 years ago too 04:50:02 sykopomp: i could probably improve it but it's implemented in a sucky way and i want to change it 04:50:10 jso: I'll check what british renamed it 04:50:43 sykopomp: since nobody uses it i may be able to change the design without major breakage but... still, i feel bad about it 04:50:59 fusss: nice blog, I guess? 04:51:09 p_l: Honestly, I'm surprised to hear that the British are working on something. Most activity I've seen is coming out of the US, Germany, France, Japan and some middle-eastern nations. 04:51:20 fusss: :) 04:51:21 felideon: CSS could use some improvement ROFLAMO 04:51:38 fusss: you wrote the code yourself? 04:51:47 jso: Actually the whole project was from Poland, but some jerk killed funding 04:51:47 felideon: over the last three nights 04:52:01 British reused the project in their HERTI program 04:52:13 p_l: No kidding. I'll research it. 04:52:32 the flyer is J-6 Fregata (English: "Frigate") 04:53:24 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:33 Those things are huge! At least compared to what I'm working on. 04:53:52 http://uav.sdsmt.edu/ <-- what I'm working on. 04:53:54 AFAIK we finished preliminary studies, then the project got killed because of "lack of commercial or military use" 04:54:10 fusss: nice. I also want to write my own blog platform in Lisp on Huchentoot. it would be my first Lisp project... just to do something practical that i'll use and get a feel for using Lisp to code web apps 04:54:18 So I haven't seen any AI work 04:54:31 p_l: Though it isn't the latest information. 04:54:39 At all? Or on that project? 04:54:40 I did look at some of the aerodynamics work 04:54:48 jso: The whole project 04:55:09 Then some time later we see UK sporting out exactly what was in my father's proposal 04:55:10 sykopomp: isn't lines 309+ a mess 04:55:25 p_l: Sounds about right. :/ 04:55:53 felideon: it's easy :-) making it nice is hard though 04:56:18 the funny thing was how after british presentation we heard that polish border guard and military considered it for purchase :P 04:56:29 fusss: that's the easy part for me :) 04:56:40 -!- fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 04:56:42 except now it would be a british project, wouldn't it? 04:57:49 Well, now that I'm going for AI degree, I might dabble with UAV's :) 04:58:05 p_l: That sounds about right as well. :/ 04:58:33 dto: I don't understand the importance of distinguishing between named parents, defining prototypes, etc. Why don't you go the usual route of having a single canonical parent object (Object in JS-land, for example), and having 'top-level' objects just clone that? Reduces your interface to just clone. 04:58:49 p_l: The thing about us is that we're funded via the Army Research Labs. That is, we aren't expected to have a product, but rather results. This puts significantly less pressure on us. 04:59:02 fusss: did you use any web framework? like Weblocks or UnCommon>? 04:59:13 nope 04:59:15 sykopomp: that's the problem pretty much. 04:59:17 jso: Heh, in our case it's more about whatever guy sits on review board. Thing NSF 04:59:18 pure hunchentoot and cl-who 04:59:20 *Think 04:59:25 fusss: cool 04:59:28 sykopomp: i never wrote out the spec and analyzed it for conceptual clarity and correctness 04:59:52 sykopomp: i just read various papers and pages about prototypes, and sort of whacked it together in elisp 04:59:58 felideon: haven't touched the web in 6 years. a long time not to touch any tech, even more so the web. 05:00:29 my first lisp software i ever sold was a call center management package, in portable allegroserve and sbcl 0.8.1 :-) 05:00:32 felipe: hehe nice. well expect questions from me once i start hacking at it :) 05:00:38 nice 05:01:08 err fusss * 05:01:23 sykopomp: then ported it to CL 05:01:28 felideon: anytime 05:01:31 sykopomp: its dev history is sort of tortured and chaotic 05:01:32 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 05:01:34 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 05:02:05 can I PM you? 05:02:12 felideon: by all means 05:02:27 sykopomp: despite all this it works great for my game engine. i just wish i had made it a bit more.... um, better 05:03:17 heh 05:04:10 jso: If my Uni had an Aerospace dept., I would have tried to get hooked into some flying work, but no luck :/ 05:04:48 p_l: Yeah, we don't have an aerospace dept either. Just a bunch of enthusiasts. 05:05:53 *p_l* lately wishes he had gone to japan for studies or stayed in Poland 05:06:06 p_l: Where are you at? 05:06:10 dto: also, doesn't finding an "nth" method kind of defeat the purpose of polymorphism?... 05:06:32 (as in, it's not supposed to be a list of functions you might call, but the idea of having a most-specific-one) 05:06:41 jso: University of Aberdeen, UK 05:06:48 or in the case of CLOS, a list of most-specific-ones :P 05:07:20 jso: Just started my BSci in Computing Science and AI 05:07:31 bpalmer [n=user@unaffiliated/bpalmer] has joined #lisp 05:08:54 sykopomp: i find it hard to answer that in the abstract, as the "nth"ness is not exposed to the user, he basically says "skip my own implementation and use the previously defined one". as in, i want to decorate a method or whatever or have an initializer do extra stuff, so it calls the .. uh, superclass's initializer? but there's no classes. see the bind i'm in? anyway i'll improve it 05:08:59 p_l: Heh. I'm in the fifth year of what is referred to as "the six year plan" at a 4 year school. When I finish I should have a BS in both CS and Mathematics. 05:09:19 ah 05:09:26 sykopomp: either way there is a list "out there" of methods whose definitions hide one another locally , and the send-parent thing is just a way to unpeel that list 05:09:59 jso: Nice. If not for lack of money I'd ask at my Uni if I could do second degree along. Nanotechnology looks like a hell of important skill now 05:11:13 p_l: No doubt! It is one of the few fields that my school offers a doctoral program in. Its tempting to wander in that direction. :) 05:11:46 jso: When every factory in the world gets obsoleted overnight it will be too late. GO FOR IT :P 05:12:11 though CS and AI would be still a good investment 05:15:20 So, I just about jizzed in my pants when I discovered Haskell has a -N option to specify the number of processors and will auto-parallelize for that. Is there any work toward an equivalent with any Lisp implementations? 05:15:45 jso: If you are willing to remodel the language used, then sure 05:16:03 I'm pretty sure you could get that with macros 05:16:33 Actually I wrote a thread-mapcar for SBCL last night. 05:16:40 hm. I need to figure out how the implementation of eql-specializers works. Any pointers, or is it a stupid question? 05:17:13 hmm... is there any async IO library for CL? 05:17:50 real async IO, not "spawn a thread to wait on syscall" async 05:20:58 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1EFDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:28 IOLib may do what you need. I believe it supports ioctl() which you can set a file to be ASYNC http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/index.shtml 05:21:35 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E59B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:19 jso: setting a flag doesn't do it - I mean something like AIO from POSIX Realtime Extensions 05:23:50 OTOH, the only systems out there with AIO working properly are VMS and to a lesser degree possibly Win NT 05:23:53 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:14 No, but with ASYNC a read() returns 0 immediately if there isn't any data in the buffer. 05:25:05 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.167.182] has quit [] 05:25:21 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.167.182] has joined #lisp 05:25:22 jso: With AIO you fire a request and get notified when OS finished it 05:25:34 I see. 05:25:52 on VMS there was only asynchronous I/O 05:25:56 (AFAIK) 05:27:17 -!- l_n [n=Not@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:27:54 so read()/write() in POSIX compat. libs are emulated 05:28:06 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.158.129] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:28:19 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 05:30:00 brb 05:34:25 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:35:44 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:35:50 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:28 drew was right, you really can't tell harrop anything. kaz is mopping him on the floor and the guy doesn't get it. *sigh* 05:39:57 -!- DavidSJ [n=david@146.115.53.11] has quit [] 05:40:04 -!- bpalmer [n=user@unaffiliated/bpalmer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:40:39 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:41:28 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:38 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:41:40 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 05:43:42 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:43:56 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:52 fusss: but he's a doctor! 05:46:21 if I ever wanted to learn F#, I'm not sure I'd buy any of his books. 05:46:22 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:46:57 sykopomp: and so was Goebbels (ooh, godwinism) 05:47:21 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 05:47:25 I didn't know Goebbels was. Hum. 05:47:37 do pastes in paste.lisp.org expire? 05:49:19 felideon: hopefully not. i use it as my git repo. 05:50:00 :) 05:52:25 aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-18-82.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:26 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:05:47 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:05:54 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.152.218] has joined #lisp 06:10:30 -!- aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-18-82.acanac.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:12:55 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.181.97.86] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:16:24 tripwyre_ [n=sathya@117.193.160.143] has joined #lisp 06:16:54 sykopomp: He had PhD in racism ;-) 06:17:38 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 06:25:33 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.167.182] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:28:05 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp272.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 06:28:35 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:30:47 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:37 jso: what is current mission in IARC competition? IIRC some time ago it was to design a recon UAV to help in case of accidents or disasters? 06:33:37 p_l: It's a continuation of that mission. Send a UAV into a building with no a priori knowledge and search for a control panel. Send back 5 seconds of video of the panel and a map of the building. 06:34:53 hmm... interesting. Now, if only there were funds and enough nanotech to finish ornithopters, now that would be an interesting entry in contest :D 06:35:27 Yeah. I'd also like to see Stanford continue research on the Mesicopter project. 06:37:07 I only hope I'll manage to run away from Earth before they finish nannite clouds... 06:44:37 It will be a joy to program AIs with nanotech, but I don't want to be anywhere near hyper surveillance of nannite clouds 06:57:12 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 07:06:48 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.226.10] has joined #lisp 07:14:26 envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 07:16:52 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:17:27 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 07:18:38 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-111-32.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:23:09 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:28:50 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:31:21 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:40:40 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp272.studby.uio.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:41:15 adityo [n=adityo@122.169.15.48] has joined #lisp 07:42:42 ola to all ye lisp gods 07:48:44 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:50:08 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 07:54:34 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0EC36.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:57:12 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:58:09 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)"] 08:01:52 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 08:03:19 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:03:36 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:05:36 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:06 hjpark [n=user@221.138.197.236] has joined #lisp 08:18:11 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.235.22] has joined #lisp 08:19:41 netaustin [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:22 -!- hjpark [n=user@221.138.197.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:07 -!- bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:28:36 naerbnic [n=naerbnic@cpe-75-83-108-34.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:29:11 -!- naerbnic [n=naerbnic@cpe-75-83-108-34.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:35:33 binghe [n=binghe@60.12.227.4] has joined #lisp 08:36:12 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:38:31 md1 [n=user@213-151-238-36.icss.sk] has joined #lisp 08:39:11 beach [n=user@58.186.158.129] has joined #lisp 08:39:15 Good afternoon. 08:39:23 hey beach 08:44:05 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:47:09 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:48:25 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@72-255-23-143.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:24 -!- envi_home2 [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:52:07 holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:51 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:59:32 -!- antoni [n=antoni@54.pool85-53-29.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 09:01:08 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-111-32.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 09:01:39 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-204-3-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 09:08:02 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-124-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:10:51 fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.112.170] has joined #lisp 09:17:46 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:23:01 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.235.22] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:27:50 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 09:28:28 so 09:28:49 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [] 09:28:51 to get sort of the nice and easy system admin functionality from a bash shell in lisp 09:28:59 in a lispshell i mean 09:29:25 that would basically require a combination of creating macros and functions 09:29:51 Have you looked over scsh? 09:29:54 then one could make function calls and pass some parameters to approximate what a bash shell does? 09:30:08 nope just googling anything i can now. googling scsh 09:30:14 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:56 i'm not interested in being pragmatic here, i'm thinking to my self, if i could replace everything on my system with lisp, starting with with shell 09:31:00 how would that look like 09:31:04 just for fun :) 09:32:10 oh, aha! 09:32:12 neat 09:32:16 checking it out 09:32:20 looks cool, thanks! 09:32:50 -!- Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:36:59 robyonrails [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:43:43 what's wrong with (push "hello" '("blah")) ? 09:46:18 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:47:00 '("blah") is not a place. 09:47:22 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 09:47:30 Consider why (let ((x '("blah"))) (push "hello" x) x) works 09:48:04 Zhivago: yea I gotya 09:48:26 so then this leads me to my next question, does assoc not return a place? 09:48:26 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:48:28 Maybe you're looking for (cons "hello" '("blah"))? 09:48:41 You can't return places -- they're not objects. 09:50:06 hmm so how would I achieve something like (push "hello" (assoc 'word '((word "hi") (bob "flemming")))) 09:50:11 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 09:50:32 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:50:34 Hi 09:50:50 I don't think that makes sense ... 09:51:09 What are you trying to achieve here? Replacing "hi" with "hello"? 09:51:56 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-111-32.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:51:56 or do you want ("hello" word "hi") in there afterward? 09:52:12 yea 09:52:13 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 09:52:14 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:52:51 I mean the real example was adding an ID to the children part of a item in a hash table 09:53:15 I suggest thinking about what you want to do and then asking a clear question. 09:53:22 so I thought I would just do (push id (assoc 'children (get-hash parent tree))) or something like that 09:54:04 I suggest that you check what assoc returns. 09:55:32 I get the idea, it returns the value but not the place so the push can't work just like before with the other example. I'm just curious how you could do it differently 09:55:53 But, which value does it return, and how does that make sense with push for what you want? 09:57:32 Well children should be a list of ID's, I thought doing the assoc would get me there so that I could add to it 09:57:43 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:00 You might want to check this theory 09:58:25 Well I already got that it's the wrong way to do it now but 09:58:26 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:58:40 Well, it's more that assoc doesn't do what you expect. 09:58:47 ok 10:00:08 (defvar x '((a b) (c d))) 10:00:17 (assoc x 'a) -> (a b) 10:00:18 oh do you mean 10:00:24 yea 10:00:36 (push 'c (rest (assoc x 'a))) 10:00:39 I was just going to type you should do (push (car (assoc ...))) maybe 10:00:46 oh ssorry cadr 10:01:34 whoops I forgot about that 10:04:01 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:05:56 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-131-217.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:06:08 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-131-217.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:02 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:18:11 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:22:39 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-84-191.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:32 mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 10:24:31 -!- mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has left #lisp 10:26:50 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:27:11 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:28:30 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:39:38 H4ns [n=hans@213.20.156.34] has joined #lisp 10:40:56 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.112.170] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:44:43 user_ [n=user@p549272E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:41 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:46:50 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-223.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:47:20 -!- lasts [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:47:53 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:48:32 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:55:31 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 10:56:14 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-104-124.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:29 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:00:32 matley [n=matley@83.225.193.31] has joined #lisp 11:05:18 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:07:26 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 11:08:16 how cann i use hunchentoot with lispworks personal? there a many errors when i try loading the required packages 11:08:54 for example: syntax error in (DEFSYSTEM :ALEXANDRIA :VERSION "0.0.0" 11:09:34 -!- HET3 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 11:09:59 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:11:57 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-111-32.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 11:14:26 seelenquell: what does the error message say? 11:15:44 syntax error in (DEFSYSTEM :ALEXANDRIA :VERSION "0.0.0" 11:15:46 :LICENCE "Public Domain / 0-clause MIT" :COMPONENTS 11:15:48 ((:STATIC-FILE "LICENCE") (:STATIC-FILE "tests.lisp") (:FILE 11:15:50 "package") (:FILE "definitions" :DEPENDS-ON #) (:FILE "binding" 11:15:52 :DEPENDS-ON #) (:FILE "strings" :DEPENDS-ON #) (:FILE "conditions" 11:15:54 :DEPENDS-ON #) (:FILE "hash-tables" :DEPENDS-ON #) (:FILE "io" 11:15:56 :DEPENDS-ON #) (:FILE "macros" :DEPENDS-ON #) (:FILE 11:15:58 "control-flow" :DEPENDS-ON #) (:FILE "symbols" :DEPENDS-ON #) 11:16:00 (:FILE "functions" :DEPENDS-ON #) (:FILE "lists" :DEPENDS-ON #) 11:16:02 (:FILE "types" :DEPENDS-ON #) (:FILE "arrays" :DEPENDS-ON #) 11:16:04 (:FILE "sequences" :DEPENDS-ON #) (:FILE "numbers" :DEPENDS-ON 11:16:06 #) (:FILE "features" :DEPENDS-ON #))): 11:16:08 "0.0.0" was found where a keyword symbol is expected 11:16:24 oh, sorry, i dont want paste this here 11:16:25 minion: please tell seelenquell about lisppaste 11:16:25 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 11:17:05 seelenquell: you need to use asdf, not the lispworks-supplied defsystem utility to load hunchentoot and its prerequisites. 11:17:10 are you sure you're using asdf, and not, say, the defsystem that comes with lispworks? 11:18:19 hmm, how can i be sure to use the asdf defsystem? 11:18:53 (asdf:defsystem ...) 11:18:56 seelenquell: use (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :hunchentoot) 11:19:02 whoa 11:19:33 seelenquell: you'll certainly have to configure asdf so that it finds your systems. and obviously, you need to install it before you can use it. 11:20:42 nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 11:21:21 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:21:39 I will try it 11:21:45 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.158.129] has left #lisp 11:23:49 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:24:50 is anywhere a manual how i can configure asdf for windows and linux? 11:25:28 seelenquell: cliki.net has good info 11:29:21 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.14.172] has joined #lisp 11:30:17 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 11:31:33 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:35:21 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:39:02 -!- nenorbot [n=nix@bzq-219-145-16.static.bezeqint.net] has left #lisp 11:42:18 -!- tihonov [n=kef@kefeer2.convex.ru] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:42:55 -!- H4ns [n=hans@213.20.156.34] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:42:58 antoni [n=antoni@109.pool85-53-25.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:45:29 Dextor [n=NoorDext@CPE000fb52095c7-CM00122573b4c0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:02 -!- Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has left #lisp 11:48:27 -!- X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.152.218] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:50:29 More than one package prefix after ASDF (package KEYWORD). 11:50:41 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:50:50 hmm, I dont understand this message 11:51:19 testpjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 11:51:24 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.181.1.56] has joined #lisp 11:51:31 Do you have two colons in a symol? 11:53:36 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:54:20 I think no 11:57:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:57:51 killkernel [n=killkern@relay2.gs.ru] has joined #lisp 11:58:29 oh, i#ce found the error 11:58:43 oh, i've found the error 11:58:44 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 11:59:38 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:05:05 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 12:05:26 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:05:27 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.226.10] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:05:52 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A15B9.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:06:13 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:07:44 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 12:09:19 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:10:21 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.14.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:22 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:44 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:16:03 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:22:28 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:23:34 does lisp have any bindings for QT or anything? 12:24:14 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 12:25:59 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.226.10] has joined #lisp 12:27:11 I know ltk, that is a GUI toolkit and have bindings for lisp. 12:29:32 archangelpetro: http://uint32t.blogspot.com/2008/07/qtlisp-more-progress.html 12:29:33 i think there is an project where you can cl use with wxwigets 12:30:13 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:16 http://www.wxcl-project.org/language/en/ 12:31:07 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 12:31:18 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:32 jhc [n=jhc@adsl-75-52-163-135.dsl.dytnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:29 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:53 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 12:39:43 -!- antoni [n=antoni@109.pool85-53-25.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:42:50 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 12:44:23 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:45:54 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:52:38 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 12:53:28 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:53:52 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C702.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:03:47 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 13:07:48 -!- binghe [n=binghe@60.12.227.4] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:08:22 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 13:08:37 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 13:10:37 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:17:54 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:18:56 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 13:20:46 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:23:14 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:15 elurin [n=user@88.224.46.85] has joined #lisp 13:25:01 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:26:02 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 13:27:41 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:30:39 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-063-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:56 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-75-166.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 13:35:56 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 13:40:28 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:42:52 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.193.31] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:43:57 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 13:44:03 kuwabara1 [n=x@81.57.105.164] has joined #lisp 13:49:49 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:54:36 quit 13:54:47 -!- adityo [n=adityo@122.169.15.48] has quit ["leaving"] 13:56:46 -!- user_ [n=user@p549272E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:09 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:57:15 pkhuong: Here? 13:58:51 lisp-eval-bot [n=lisp-eva@81.57.105.164] has joined #lisp 14:01:49 eval: (reduce (lambda (x y) (concatenate 'string x y)) '("abc" "bdc" "dfdf")) 14:01:49 -!- felix^^_ [n=fgeller@dslb-088-074-220-124.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:01:50 -> "abcbdcdfdf" 14:02:21 felix^^ [n=fgeller@dslb-088-074-220-124.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:19 eval: (lisp-implementation-type) 14:03:20 -> "CLISP" 14:04:47 eval: (car 'not-a-cons) 14:04:48 -> *** - CAR: NOT-A-CONS is not a list 14:04:58 yay 14:05:02 must try... 14:05:09 eval: (loop) 14:05:11 -> Sandbox violation 14:05:19 nice 14:05:23 double yay 14:05:40 what about enormous output? 14:05:57 I assume Freenode will take care of that 14:06:13 it'll get kicked for flooding? 14:06:51 eval: (defvar *a* 'ook) 14:06:55 eval: *a* 14:06:57 -!- lisp-eval-bot [n=lisp-eva@81.57.105.164] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:07:00 lisp-eval-bot [n=lisp-eva@81.57.105.164] has joined #lisp 14:07:26 eval: (delete-file "/etc/passwd") 14:07:27 -> Sandbox violation 14:07:30 very good 14:07:35 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-177.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:07:49 where is the code? 14:08:12 eval: (delete-package "KEYWORD") 14:08:13 -> T 14:08:17 awesome 14:08:21 it doesn't remember variables either. nice 14:08:35 eval: :foo 14:08:37 -> :FOO 14:08:42 <_3b> lisp-eval-bot: (close *standard-output*) 14:08:52 <_3b> bah, stupid irc client 14:08:55 eval: (close *standard-output*) 14:08:56 -> . It has been changed to #. 14:09:02 eval: (ext:quit) 14:09:12 -!- lisp-eval-bot [n=lisp-eva@81.57.105.164] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:09:16 heh 14:09:16 *joga* chuckles 14:09:17 lisp-eval-bot [n=lisp-eva@81.57.105.164] has joined #lisp 14:09:37 -!- lisp-eval-bot [n=lisp-eva@81.57.105.164] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:09:54 the extreme implelentation strategy would be forking on each request, which it probably doesn't do. or does it? 14:09:54 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4677.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:10:37 -!- testpjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:10:52 whose bot is it? 14:11:10 lisp-eval-bot [n=lisp-eva@81.57.105.164] has joined #lisp 14:11:14 eval: #.(delete-file "/etc/passwd") 14:11:15 -> Sandbox violation 14:12:07 eval: (with-open-file (s "/etc/passwd") (read-line s)) 14:12:08 -> Sandbox violation 14:12:26 eval: (let ((*print-circle* nil)) (print '#1=(foo . #1#))) 14:12:26 eval: (software-type) 14:12:28 -> (FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO FOO ...) 14:12:29 -> libreadline 5.2" 14:12:37 eval: (funcall (intern "DELETE-FILE") "/etc/passwd") 14:12:38 -> Sandbox violation 14:12:58 <_3b> eval: (format nil "~2,0a" 1) 14:12:59 -> Sandbox violation 14:13:27 eval: (search "LINUX" (software-type)) 14:13:28 -> Sandbox violation 14:13:34 whaa 14:13:36 eval: (values 1 2) 14:13:37 -> 2 14:13:56 ok, back to work 14:13:56 <_3b> eval: (values) 14:13:57 -> Sandbox violation 14:14:11 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:45 <_3b> eval: - 14:14:47 -> Sandbox violation 14:15:19 eval: (progn (setf *print-circle* nil) '#1=(foo . #1#)) 14:15:20 -> Sandbox violation 14:15:28 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:30 -!- lisp-eval-bot [n=lisp-eva@81.57.105.164] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:15:35 hah 14:15:43 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:16:39 *luis* wants to look at the code :) 14:19:49 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 14:21:44 netaustin [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:55 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has joined #lisp 14:23:13 beach [n=user@58.186.158.129] has joined #lisp 14:23:17 Good evening. 14:24:01 subodh_shivapuja [i=c142c881@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-db9deaa793f89729] has joined #lisp 14:24:51 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:25:44 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:25:53 eveni' 14:27:37 An eval bot, huh? 14:27:48 Indeed :) 14:28:11 yeah, interesting, how it detects infinity loops 14:28:28 stassats: I think there's a CPU and memory consumption limit. 14:28:45 Whose bot is it? 14:29:07 tcr: that's my best guess 14:30:17 -!- Martinp23 [i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:32 stassats: I don't know how it handled my (let ((*print-circle* nil)) ...) expression, though 14:30:38 -!- elurin [n=user@88.224.46.85] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:31:48 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:31:55 tcr: through the cpu or memory consumption limit 14:32:14 oh, wait, I see 14:34:01 Krystof: Could you have said "by the cpu ... limit", too, or wouldn't that be grammatically correct? 14:35:09 hmm, clisp has no threads yet, how does it handle that? 14:35:20 forking? 14:36:05 clisp has threads. 14:36:10 Bah, flashing a toy like this is not acceptable! :) 14:36:49 amos_ [n=amos_@cpc5-bolt9-0-0-cust762.manc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:35 schme: since when? 14:37:45 stassats: Good question. 14:38:06 i saw only a work-in-progress branch 14:38:08 stassats: ./configure --with-threads=FLAVOR FLAVOR: POSIX_THREADS SOLARIS_THREADS WIN32_THREADS 14:38:21 ok. 14:38:33 since last year sometime. 14:38:48 then, since that fall, i suppose 14:39:04 FWIW, it says "highly experimental - use at your own risk" 14:40:29 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:30 Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-255471.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:44:24 Hi everyone. There is no way to make a recursive call from whithin a lambda expression, right ? 14:45:00 google for fixed point combinator 14:45:29 Thanks stassats! 14:50:20 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 14:52:57 Beket: or see ALAMBDA and NAMED-LAMBDA, which can be implemented using LABELS 14:53:27 lisp-eval-bot [n=lisp-eva@81.57.105.164] has joined #lisp 14:53:33 Beket: ALAMBDA is in On Lisp IIRC and there's ALEXANDRIA:NAMED-LAMBDA. 14:53:47 minion: tell Beket about alexandria 14:53:48 Beket: look at alexandria: Shhh -- it's a secret! http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 14:53:51 -!- amos_ [n=amos_@cpc5-bolt9-0-0-cust762.manc.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:53:53 :) 14:53:57 Thanks people 14:58:55 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:02:02 eval: (values 1 2) 15:02:03 -> 1 ; 2 15:02:28 kuwabara1: where is the code? 15:03:11 stassats: unpublished yet 15:03:52 kuwabara1: does it fork every time? 15:04:33 stassats: yes. 15:04:41 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:43 eval: (sleep 60) 15:06:44 -> Sandbox violation 15:07:04 eval: (ext:! 42) 15:07:06 -> 1405006117752879898543142606244511569936384000000000 15:07:46 ooooh. How do you sandbox it like that? >_> 15:08:09 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 15:08:15 time limit? 15:09:49 no, I mean in general: How would you sandbox lisp so that it's mostly usable by users, say if you want to allow scripting, but prevent them from having access to stuff like filesystem-access functions and stuff. 15:10:01 I can think of ways, but I'm wondering if there's a Right Way to do it. 15:10:26 sykopomp: here, the process is strace()d and its syscalls and args are checked against a list 15:10:59 fork in the chroot/jail environment? 15:11:20 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:12:24 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:12:37 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:48 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:24:15 holycow: have a look at http://mail.ogamita.org/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html ; do the same, but substitute your favorite CL implementation to emacs... 15:28:19 blitz_ [n=julian@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:58 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 15:29:01 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:34 kuwabara1: is the source out there somewhere? 15:30:22 eval: (function-lambda-expression (function eval)) 15:30:23 -> NIL ; NIL ; EVAL 15:30:31 eval: (symbol-package 'eval) 15:30:32 -> # 15:30:38 eval: *package* 15:30:39 -> # 15:30:47 eval: (list-all-packages) 15:30:48 -> (# # # # # # eval: (let ((*print-length* nil)) (print (list-all-packages)) (values)) 15:31:07 -> (# # # # # # eval: (ext:! 100) 15:32:20 -> 93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000 15:32:39 eval: (let ((*print-base* 36)) (print (ext:! 100))) 15:32:40 -> 62NH2MC145RIXAI667GY96XA5X2TUUABWKYLST8IETAG5JF45R9JDIAGIVPC8U2HFSBRVROSJBCV7K0000000000000000000... 15:33:37 pjb: it would be nice to have that *thing* in an other channel :) 15:35:20 pjb: shall we agree that public eval are for when you need to demonstrate something to someone, and /msg is more appropriate for personal tests ? 15:37:08 antoni [n=antoni@89.pool85-53-20.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 15:37:55 -!- antoni [n=antoni@89.pool85-53-20.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 15:38:27 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit ["leaving"] 15:38:31 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 15:38:44 -!- subodh_shivapuja [i=c142c881@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-db9deaa793f89729] has left #lisp 15:39:44 athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 15:41:46 sykopomp: the sandbox code is available here: http://jerome.abela.free.fr/sandbox.c but it's probably more an example of how to do it than a reusable application. 15:41:53 elurin [n=user@88.224.46.85] has joined #lisp 15:42:34 thanks :) 15:42:56 rpg_ [n=rpg@mail.shirtikvah.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:30 Quadresce` [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:56 this is great, thank you :D 15:44:22 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:44:53 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:03 kuwabara1: could you load stuff like cl-ppcre, alexandria, etc? 15:46:32 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:47 *Fare* is once again full of shit 15:47:26 Does anyone out there develop for asdf? If so, what do you do about revision control? git-cvs? 15:47:36 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 15:48:02 rpg: what does "develop for asdf" mean? 15:48:10 Fare: ? 15:48:12 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:27 luis: Working on developing a patch that will make clean-op work is my proximal task... 15:48:32 rpg: http://www.mudballs.com 15:48:42 luis: that would be useful indeed. I will work on it. 15:48:55 so, has anyone actually experienced a race-condition in run-program, assuming you're not trying to mix-and-match run-program with your own forking (which won't work) 15:49:14 sykopomp: um.... that's an ASDF alternative, not a revision control system... 15:49:29 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:49:39 apparently, it uses with-system-mutex which *should* do the right thing, except for a maybe race condition in get-mutex (would have to ask nikodemus about it) 15:50:05 luis: I know you have submitted patches --- what do you do with keeping your patches while they wait for up to date? 15:50:05 rpg, you mean, what revision control system they use to control revisions of ASDF itself? 15:50:05 rpg: Oh, I guess I misread what you meant. Apologies :) 15:50:47 Fare: i heard someone had problems with run-program's race conditions 15:50:49 Fare: no, I know that's cvs. I'm thinking about what I should do to keep my stuff trackable meantime... 15:51:14 user____ [n=user@p54925651.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:49 rpg: they were very simple patches so I just saved the diff. 15:56:34 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:57:39 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-75-166.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:57:59 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 15:59:03 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 16:00:40 So, I'm mucking about in the sbcl runtime. C99 defines standard types for specific integer widths, which could fix a KLUDGE and FIXME in runtime.h. The question is, do I add typedefs for what sbcl already uses (u64, s64) or do I change the entire runtime to use what the standard uses (uint64_t, int64_t)? 16:00:52 _8david [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:01:04 Remember that those types are optional. 16:01:24 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 16:01:26 Zhivago: yes, I'm checking for C99 presence and falling back to the old method 16:01:57 I'd be inclined to suggest sticking with u64, etc, and using typedeffery to use uint64_t, etc where available 16:02:00 This is more of a philosophical and pragmatic question. 16:05:05 _8david` [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:05:41 My inclination is to change it all to the standard on the grounds that more consistency with other C programs is better than a smaller diff. I'm not sure how the gatekeepers feel about it, though 16:05:43 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-220.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:07:20 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:07:32 pyrolyte [n=chatzill@cpe-024-211-210-221.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:17 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:18 -!- ypsa [n=ypsa@217-115-252-250.cust.avonet.cz] has quit ["leaving"] 16:09:53 stassats, slyrus said he did, but I'm wondering if he was misusing it, or if he was using multiple threads in an intensive way 16:11:16 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:25 after reviewing the code more carefully than previously, I found that it uses a complex mechanism to avoid race-conditions, which should work in theory, except for what looks like a residual race condition in get-mutex, due to some with-interrupts that I don't understand. 16:11:25 -!- HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:56 maybe the solution is just to have with-active-processes-lock *NOT* allow-with-interrupts 16:12:22 kuwabara1: Do you have any good pointers to writing sandboxes? 16:14:44 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:14:58 z0d: no. I did this sandbox yesterday for the purpose of this bot. I have no kind of experience regarding sandboxes. 16:15:16 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:15:49 Martinp23 [i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23] has joined #lisp 16:16:25 z0d: I was told that SELinux provides the same and *much* more. But I was not able to use it in less than an hour, so I fall back to an ad hoc solution. 16:17:47 For a chrootish solution I'd use http://linux-vserver.org , though that requires patching the kernel. It's lightweight and has some cool features. 16:18:50 -!- Martinp23 [i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:20:47 Martinp23 [i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23] has joined #lisp 16:22:38 -!- _8david [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:31 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:16 r. slime's inspector: is there a way to eval a form on the object I'm inspecting? 16:24:39 user_____ [n=user@p54925CB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:45 netaustin_ [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:40 -!- user____ [n=user@p54925651.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:54 kuwabara1: bsd jails, perhaps? 16:27:35 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:29:14 uroboros [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 16:30:42 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:05 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:34:18 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:37:22 -!- pyrolyte [n=chatzill@cpe-024-211-210-221.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120121]"] 16:37:35 madnificent: yes, bsd jails and user mode linux seem to be good solutions, when you are ready to manage a dedicated file system. 16:37:48 -!- Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-255471.home.otenet.gr] has quit [] 16:38:00 kuwabara1: dd if=/dev/zero of=foo.dd; ... 16:38:01 pyrolyte [n=pyrolyte@cpe-024-211-210-221.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:40 Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-255471.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:39:53 madnificent: as I understand it, you need all the directories, libraries and necessary files on that FS. 16:39:55 -!- uroboros [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 16:40:40 madnificent: but probably less than 50 files are necessary to run a lisp. Not that big. 16:41:01 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 16:41:08 kuwabara1: you can share most of it between virtual hosts, as they don't need to be writeable (fixed config) 16:41:09 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 16:41:19 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-55-82-255-159-170.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:35 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-45-82-65-186-25.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:30 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:45:41 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:04 -!- user_____ [n=user@p54925CB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:48:02 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:48:21 jlf` [n=user@adsl-99-161-111-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:32 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:57:44 -!- elurin [n=user@88.224.46.85] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:11 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 17:03:30 tonino07 [n=Juan@83.138.240.222.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:04:04 elurin [n=user@88.224.46.85] has joined #lisp 17:04:56 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 17:04:56 -!- tonino07 [n=Juan@83.138.240.222.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit ["Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/"] 17:08:23 yakov_ [n=yakov__@213.170.102.170] has joined #lisp 17:09:33 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 17:09:35 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:46 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@72-255-24-241.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:12 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 17:16:13 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BF3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:21 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:00 mornin' 17:18:18 evening 17:18:27 hello fusss 17:19:15 -!- rpg [n=rpg@mail.shirtikvah.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 17:19:51 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:20:24 Hi fusss. Show us the stuff! 17:20:36 morning 17:26:42 -!- Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-255471.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:27:50 josemanuel [n=josemanu@99.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:27:57 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:32:28 stassats` [n=stassats@92-100-131-21.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 17:33:20 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:33:52 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:11 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:37:02 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@72-255-24-241.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:02 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:19 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:40 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:39:50 z0d: i previewed it last night here 17:39:58 hold on, let me launch it in a sec 17:40:09 hey slyrus_ 17:40:34 z0d: just close your eyes and ignore the ugly UI; it will be cleaned up with CSS 17:42:07 Close my eyes? Do you have a Braille UI? <-: 17:42:08 fusss: what's new? 17:44:04 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.193.7] has joined #lisp 17:44:07 http://70.187.234.43:8080/blog fireaway 17:45:34 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:45:50 am i obsessing or does it feel slow? 17:45:53 fusss: you redirected me to localhost 17:45:59 fusss: do POST URL is wrong 17:46:03 s/do/the/ 17:46:15 really? 17:46:33
17:46:37 are you getting the index page? 17:46:49 The indes page works fine. 17:46:52 index* 17:46:53 fusss: when posting a reply, it redirects me to localhost :) 17:47:02 as z0d pointed out 17:47:36 oh, just a sec 17:47:53 is it the slow meta refresh or is something immediate? 17:48:07 the meta refresh has a 2 second delay 17:48:24 fusss: It is the tag I pasted above. 17:48:25 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:46 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:48:53 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:49:14 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@dhcp-18-111-61-198.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:49:18 user_ [n=user@p54924CA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:26 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:49:31 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:49:58 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:51:05 we will try it again in a bit, just a sec 17:51:39 DUH 17:51:40 haha 17:51:52 fusss: very well. Do you have some storage mechanism to store your posts upon a restarting core? 17:52:47 yeah, sqlite3 17:52:49 brb 17:52:58 the blog, not me :-P 17:53:00 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-220.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 17:53:11 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-220.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:54:10 I'm experimenting with rucksack. Seems nice so far. 17:54:38 HET4 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:56:49 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-227-13.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 17:56:54 <_3b> should the Comment link be #reply instead of #reply/11 ? 17:57:16 <_3b> (not that it matters much if it is going to be right next to the comment form anyway :) 17:57:57 try now 17:58:07 i had an unquoted string being generated at run time 17:58:22 _3b: yes, of course 17:58:40 -!- HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:59:24 fusss: I still get redirected to localhost when posting a repl 17:59:25 y 17:59:25 try posting a new story. the "new" link all the way in the bottom 17:59:37 <_3b> still localhost on the comment page, New looks better though 17:59:44 <_3b> *comment form 18:01:14 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 18:01:57 hold me, let me check it remotely 18:02:19 is it leaking any hints that it's hunchentoot? 18:02:28 i plan to override the error page 18:02:39 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 18:02:46 fusss: why don't you simply post to /foobar that will always maintain the host 18:02:50 -!- HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:03:29 <_3b> hints like'Hunchentoot 0.15.7' in the Server firld of the response header? :) 18:03:50 it seems pretty fast to me... 18:04:14 although it's not showing comments?... 18:04:36 sykopomp: not all posts have comments. 8 has tons of them. 18:04:49 I tried posting a comment, but it's not showing up 18:05:15 <_3b> now i get no localhost, but no ID number in the post url either 18:05:16 oh wow. 8 took a while to load 18:05:24 alright, it's broken. taking it down for an hour. 18:06:43 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 18:07:01 there are so many thing going wrong. the story fragmentizer (the thing that does the "read more" link for big stories is utterly laughable) 18:07:49 fusss pasted "fuglyp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73425 18:08:04 -!- yakov_ [n=yakov__@213.170.102.170] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:08:08 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:12 it has everything; position, concatenate, subseq, and 2 princ-to-strings. 18:09:27 -!- user_ [n=user@p54924CA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:09:48 I guess you could split it into other functions? It doesn't particularly bother me tbh 18:10:01 fusss: nice, a nuclblog competitor! 18:10:15 <_3b> does it need the concatenate? 18:10:23 slyrus_: i was thinking more along the lines of WordPress, but you flatter me. 18:12:01 _3b: I was doing VALUES first, where the first value is the largest text fragment, and the second is the end position of the fragment within the posted text. so to say "Read More [~d bytes]" (- text-len pos) 18:12:06 fusss: the indentation is a bit confusing :-\ 18:12:47 sykopomp: that's LispWorks. you're probably used to emacs. or is the html-esque indent? 18:14:24 it's only 200 lines :-) 18:15:35 the concatenate indentation confused me 18:16:46 benny [n=benny@i577A0313.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:18:14 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:18:14 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:28 -!- HET4 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:51 -!- HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:23:02 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:24:05 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:24:08 -!- cracki_ is now known as cracki 18:24:12 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 18:25:05 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 18:26:28 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:41 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 18:28:00 -!- gilberth [n=gilbert@c138206.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:32:13 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:36:09 pjb: thank you very much for that link 18:36:11 that is terrific 18:36:38 i was googling for exactly an experiment that someone did 18:36:39 thats neat 18:36:57 and eprmnt like that i mean 18:37:38 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:37:46 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 18:43:38 antoni [n=antoni@244.pool85-53-29.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 18:44:00 -!- cavelife [n=cavelife@211.201.172.41] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:44:22 cavelife [n=cavelife@211.201.172.41] has joined #lisp 18:45:08 Tijuas [n=Tijuas@201.170.25.243] has joined #lisp 18:45:12 Tired of niigggers and their general monkeyshines? Then join the multiracial alliance against the golliwogs, darkies, jigaboos, etc! http://www.chimpout.com Chimpout welcomes Asians, Whites, Indians, Native Americans, Jews, non-negroid Hispanics, and anybody else that isn't negroid. Chimpout.com The Alliance of Humans vs Niiiggggers 18:45:38 -!- Tijuas [n=Tijuas@201.170.25.243] has left #lisp 18:46:27 why do these people spam freenode?... 18:46:42 i've never seen anything so retarded 18:46:58 why do these people exist? 18:47:14 this is like the second or third time I've seen pretty much the same thing pop up. 18:47:51 salex: Ironically, it's a phenomenon that's called the Monkeysphere. 18:48:19 the life of a troll is pathetic enough, the life of a third rate troll? 18:48:23 milanj [n=milan@91.150.119.74] has joined #lisp 18:48:34 Jabberwockey: by some blogger hack, at least 18:48:58 Jabberwockey: monkeysphere?.... 18:49:16 dlowe: Yes, others call it Dunbar's number. 18:50:13 sykopomp: In essence, it's argued as follows: The human capability for compassion is limited, because our brains have a maximum capacity for storing social relations. 18:50:25 right. 18:50:33 but that's a somewhat different issue 18:50:47 elurin` [n=user@85.104.214.8] has joined #lisp 18:51:16 sykopomp: Therefore, we divide humanity into people close to us (the "Monkeysphere") and those not close to us and rationalise, why those people aren't. 18:51:27 i.e., that explains why you can't expect social cohesion in large groups, but does nothing to explain why people actually spend time on that sort of trivial assholishness 18:51:46 sykopomp: "THEM GERMANS are like that." - "THOSE BLACK GUYS are like that" 18:52:03 Hellnar [i=Hellnar@88.235.127.47] has joined #lisp 18:52:43 salex: The first part doesn't, the second does. Our brain doesn't say "out of memory". It comes up with an explanation why you probably don't want to feel compassion for those people anyway. 18:52:58 no, it still doesn't help 18:53:20 because you're actually spending energy/time on this. it doesn't explain the opportunity cost, as it were 18:53:42 interesting 18:53:45 but unfortunate. 18:53:52 anyway, not important 18:54:13 salex: Some people take these bs explanations and project them, because it makes their world easier. Easier rules for an easier world. See the history of my country from 33 to 45. 18:54:23 salex: Yes, let's get back to Lisp 18:54:24 Jabberwockey: that's not quite true. The brain will start coalescing groups together and treats them as though they are a single person 18:54:54 user_ [n=user@p54924752.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:02 dlowe: Yes. But it will tell you why you won't feel compassionate for one person or the other. "They are terrorists", for instance. 18:55:53 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-166.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:55:55 more like it seems to be an easy method of attributing the actions of a few to the many :P 18:56:04 anyways, lisp. I'm gonna go shopping for slippers. 18:58:10 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:01:33 Jabberwockey: "All Lispers are awesome" :D 19:01:49 all Gazzans are terrorists 19:02:08 Hmm. If I try to set the value of a slot in rucksack I get There is no applicable method for the generic function # 19:02:55 dlowe: Hehe, yes, that's the positive side of the coin, isn't it? See also: white racism... 19:03:24 Jabberwockey: except there's compelling empirical evidence for my example 19:03:57 dlowe: Yes, and even logical ones. People who understand Lisp need to be good programmers, because it forces them to think outside of today's mainstream. 19:04:50 *dlowe* was speaking tongue-in-cheek 19:05:56 dlowe: Well, the thing is, most Lispers I know ARE brilliant. 19:05:59 latest slime doesn't work on my setup :/ 19:06:12 dlowe: A little too self-obsessed in my opinion, but brilliant. 19:07:00 -!- elurin [n=user@88.224.46.85] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:07:28 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-23-32.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:07:29 dihymo [n=rares@97-124-39-40.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:57 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@dhcp-18-111-61-198.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:08:20 Jabberwockey: chances are that we only look briliant, perhaps simply because of the tools we use 19:08:28 nurv101 [n=askmefor@81.193.3.101] has joined #lisp 19:08:34 allso, I don't feel a lisper when it comes to briliance :P 19:09:13 Maybe 19:10:53 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@dhcp-18-190-47-61.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 19:11:21 -!- antoni [n=antoni@244.pool85-53-29.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 19:11:52 Close to half of Googles 20,000 employees use a slightly modified version of Ubuntu, playfully called Goobuntu. 19:11:56 get the hell outta here 19:12:02 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/business/11ubuntu.html?_r=1 19:12:11 nytimes article 19:12:31 judging from the products they pump out that are all windows centric, id guess totally the opposite 19:12:39 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:12:46 I'm going to take a different tack 19:12:50 How is that name "playful?" 19:12:58 lol 19:13:02 haha 19:13:02 i see what you did there 19:13:04 hehe 19:13:06 You can't just take the two things you're combining and moosh them into a name 19:13:15 "hey google and ubuntu, it's goobuntu"! 19:13:23 Seriously guys some more creativity please 19:13:47 the bean bags are sucking the creativity out o fthem 19:13:52 Maybe Goobuntle would have been better. 19:14:08 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:14:19 or maybe a name referring to some inside joke at Google 19:14:29 like "Antlerball GNU/Linux" 19:15:15 clemente [n=Daniel@89.6.42.98] has joined #lisp 19:15:39 Hi 19:15:41 (setq lis '(1 2 4)) (format "|%s|%s|%s|" ż? ) ; Can I pass to format the *elements* of lis instead of the list? As if I had called (format "|%s|%s|%s|" 1 2 4) 19:15:45 gnoo 19:15:53 google is not ... .. wait that doesn't work 19:15:54 hi i have a question. i want to write a macro that defines some functions for me, and i want it to create these functions based on a given name, for example a function that is names create-bla , where bla would have been the name passed to the macro, or a function save-bla-db, again "bla" being the passed name. i cant seem to find a way to do this 19:15:59 -!- elurin` [n=user@85.104.214.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:15:59 clemente: apply 19:16:01 goonu 19:16:04 google is not unix 19:16:06 clemente: or use a format that has ~{~} 19:16:19 clemente: but you are using elisp so probably the former is your only option 19:16:38 blitz_ [n=julian@2001:6f8:1194:c3d3:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 19:16:42 gontbu ought not to be unix 19:16:48 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:17:33 bakkdoor: intern 19:17:51 S11001001: yes, that's exactly what I was looking for; thanks 19:19:39 S11001001: hehe 19:19:39 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-23-32.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:19:52 you tack on this item was quite entertaining 19:19:57 unlike their name 19:21:23 you don't really need intern for that if it's a macro, no? 19:21:40 you do 19:21:51 erm, why? 19:22:03 you can just expand the name you've passed in the call to defun 19:22:34 that would be like requiring users of defstruct to pass the constructor name, copier name, accessor names, etc 19:22:54 oh wait, you want to concatinate it, nm. 19:22:55 kroger [n=user@189.115.240.45.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:23:07 the now-gone bakkdoor wanted to only pass "bla" 19:24:17 -!- kroger [n=user@189.115.240.45.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 19:24:28 -!- tripwyre_ [n=sathya@117.193.160.143] has quit [Client Quit] 19:25:36 yeah, as noted i misread 19:25:37 -!- nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:26:43 cross-typing :) 19:29:42 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:02 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:39 nxt [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 19:32:07 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:12 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:52 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:33:05 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 19:33:33 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:13 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-23-234.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:36:27 i have been neglecting to explore the cool things schemers are doing 19:37:10 hanging out on #scheme? 19:37:44 bakkdoor: you can use INTERN to create a new symbol 19:37:45 #scheme is for newbs, imo 19:38:09 the plt crowd does some cool stuff, and hides it all behind plt :-P 19:38:21 kuwabara1: how can i create one without bars (|) surrounding the name though? 19:38:26 eval: (defmacro make-function (name) `(defun ,(intern (concatenate 'string "CREATE-" name)) () 1)) (make-function "BLAH") 19:38:27 -> MAKE-FUNCTION CREATE-BLAH 19:38:29 -!- user_ [n=user@p54924752.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:35 fusss: #scheme is not only for newbies. 19:38:41 bakkdoor: use upper-case characters 19:38:47 ah ok, thanks! 19:39:02 z0d: everytime i stopped there a heavy sicp homework discussion was underway 19:39:16 for light values of "heavy" 19:41:43 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@dhcp-18-190-47-61.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:45:27 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:45:41 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@dhcp-18-111-61-198.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 19:46:19 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:51:43 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@dhcp-18-111-61-198.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:54:37 whoah .. where did this eval bot come from ... i thought we had decided it was a bad idea a long time ago. 19:56:35 drewc: we didn't really decide, but I assume it will go to a different channel sometime soon 19:57:28 madnificent: there have been talks of a lisp eval bot since i started hanging out here, and the consensus was that we didn't want one... extra noise for no gain. 19:57:49 but of course, now i want to play with it. 19:58:16 eval: (loop (make-list 1000000000000000)) 19:58:18 -> *** - MAKE-LIST: 1000000000000000 is not a 32-bit number 19:58:26 drewc: the consensus was only for those that didn't want it. Others argued that you could ignore it, or that it wouldn't be used too much. Some even pointed to the example of #haskell 19:58:42 madnificent: what are you talking about? 19:59:14 I frequently point out the example of #haskell being annoying as hell 19:59:26 pkhuong: the discussion of whether or not, we should have an eval bot here... 19:59:26 eval: (dotimes (x 1) (print "spammity spam?")) 19:59:27 -> "spammity spam?" NIL 19:59:34 _bad_ idea 19:59:40 user___ [n=user@p54926B7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:44 for the record, I'd prefer it to be in a different channel 19:59:46 wow! who thunk this? 20:00:21 eval: (loop for i from 1 to 10000 do (lambda () nil)) 20:00:22 -> Sandbox violation 20:00:32 mjonsson [n=mjonsson@pool-71-175-134-12.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:35 dang 20:00:36 so who belongs to the bot? 20:00:47 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:00:55 dunno 20:01:03 eval: *features* 20:01:03 madnificent: then there's definitely been a consensus that an eval bot decreases the snr too much, and for a long time. You're not making sense and seem to be missing context. 20:01:04 -> (:CL-PPCRE :ASDF :CLC-OS-DEBIAN :COMMON-LISP-CONTROLLER :CLX-ANSI-COMMON-LISP :CLX :READLINE :REG... 20:01:12 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:01:15 and whoever it is, please move it to #lispbot or whatever 20:01:29 :CLX ought to be useful ;) 20:01:36 clc .. the bot author is lucky or clueless : 20:01:46 pkhuong: I was saying what was said back then. Clearly not everone agreed back then (thus no consensus) for someone put it here... 20:01:50 it doesn't flood 20:02:03 it spams 20:02:10 pkhuong: so as to making sense, you might stare at yourself, with the consensus of no bot on this channel 20:02:15 eval: (sb-posix:getuid) 20:02:16 -> *** - READ from #: there is no package with name "SB-POSIX" 20:02:23 eval: (require :sb-posix) 20:02:24 -> Sandbox violation 20:02:31 eval: (documentation 'apply 'function) 20:02:32 -> NIL 20:02:37 dlowe: I'm fairly certain it's a CLISP. 20:02:43 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has been kicked from #lisp 20:02:48 drewc: it's kuwabara1's bot 20:02:50 ok, enough 20:03:18 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:30 well put it to some sort of consensus, but until then it's just annoying and noisy. 20:03:31 don't try this, but you could make lisp-eval-bot and minion get stuck in a loop, which would be unfun noise 20:03:49 drewc: I hate it 20:03:58 lisp-eval-bot could reply with /msg. so it won't flood the channel 20:04:08 z0d: i'm "chatting" with it 20:04:10 and it could have it's own channel 20:04:13 but really, what' the point 20:04:24 z0d: or could even another chanell .. or hell you could /msg it 20:04:27 who is logging in without access to a lisp 20:04:41 I'd prefer it to be available on a separate channel for all evals and perhaps /msg for examples (maybe even letting it /msg to users) 20:04:46 hell, i you can use the acl one online if need be 20:04:51 drewc: I eval in my Emacs buffers 20:04:53 salex: totally .. if you don't have a repl open you are in te wrong place. 20:05:11 is emarsden expected to be around on weekdays? I noted he's not here now. 20:05:22 I'd like to ask him about cl-bench 20:05:26 right. seems like minimal-to-no-gain, in trade for all sorts of potential noise 20:05:42 some people that are learning lisp only seem to discover the repl after having asked some questions here, so this is for newbies... or perhaps easy demonstration 20:06:01 ffs, no 20:06:15 *ehu* agrees 20:06:15 why do you think we have a paste request in topic? 20:06:23 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.226.10] has quit [" some guy was so against IRC because he thought Microsoft made it I mean Mirc he went s] 20:06:27 salex: don't use it if you don't want the noise... It doesn't provide noise if everyone here could make sense. /ignore it if you want 20:06:44 madnificent: it's had to ignore the lusers talking to it. 20:06:47 hard 20:07:00 exactly 20:07:20 madnificent: the consensus has always been 'bad idea no go'. That obviously has not changed.. so no go 20:07:33 examples showing how something works have been here for long... the only difference is that there is an answer now, which you can ignore 20:07:33 it also decreases the quality of the channel for newcomers. 20:07:33 so you don't notice 20:07:54 drewc: it being here clearly means that there is no consensus... 20:08:06 madnificent: no no .. this is not a democracy 20:08:09 and please let the one who owns the bot defend himself 20:08:38 drewc: if it were a democracy, it wouldn't be here, that's clrear 20:09:02 madnificent: well it's not, and it's not .. so i don't see the problem either way. 20:09:06 it's not here now ;) 20:09:12 #lispbot sounds good. 20:09:16 madnificent: answer is usually carried with => answer 20:09:17 how can i crate a symbol with a colon (for a keyword argument list of a function) based upon a given name ? 20:09:27 stassats`: ? 20:09:34 bakkdoor: intern into :keyword package 20:09:42 bakkdoor: you have to understand that the colon is not part of teh symbol 20:09:55 ah ok 20:10:08 also, you may not actually want to do this 20:10:14 (depends) 20:10:42 bakkdoor: the colon is just to delimit packages, and an empty package is the nickname for the keyword package. 20:10:48 wait .. is that actually correct? 20:10:53 well i'm generating a function that takes keyword arguments and i also want to create code that calls that function 20:11:00 madnificent: when someone wants to demonstrate something, he writes "(eval something) => result" 20:11:03 drewc: no, it's just one way to implement the reader hack. 20:11:05 elurin [n=user@85.104.214.8] has joined #lisp 20:11:34 pkhuong: thanks... i didn't think so. 20:12:08 mjonsson pasted "speed of labels vs toplevel functions" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73439 20:12:27 stassats`: that means manually doing it... apparantly the designer didn't like that. in any case, if you ignore the bot, you'll even get less noise (perhaps you can even ignore everything with eval: in it (client extension)) and you'd be free of examples. 20:12:37 bakkdoor: INTERNing to the keyword package is probably correct then 20:13:18 yeah its what i wanted, thanks :) 20:13:20 stassats`: I'm really defending an opinion that is not just mine, but I find it sad that it is ridiculised before even trying it out. It is here now, let it proove to be useless 20:13:39 madnificent: or .. get this .. don't force useful helpful people to go out of there way to enjoy the channel they created and helped make good in favour of those who want to ruin it. 20:13:45 Why are labels with no free vars twice as slow as toplevel functions in SBCL? 20:13:49 their way * 20:14:06 mjonsson: at what compiler settings? 20:14:17 drewc: see the paste I did 20:14:22 drewc: you're not helpfull, as I seem to remember :P 20:14:50 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@72-255-24-241.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:51 madnificent: opinions are welcome of course :P 20:14:59 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 20:15:06 I don't particularly welcome opinions 20:15:25 drewc, basically speed 3, everything else 0 20:15:30 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@81.193.3.101] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:15:38 mjonsson: First, you're misusing type declarations. Second, recursive calls to local functions can be lossy because of the weird calling convention used for them. They're often converted to direct jumps and a push of the return address to the stack, instead of a call, paired with a ret. 20:16:22 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 20:16:30 drewc: I grasp the idea that most people want the bot out of here. I suggest letting it be here for a week or so and see how the noise evolves. Preferable convince the (overly silent) creator to move it to a separate channel (possibly listening here to be able to give answers to people) 20:16:49 pkhuong, how am I misusing declarations? 20:16:54 Didn't we used to have someone in here with "eval" as their nick? 20:17:06 madnificent: can we drop this now? you've made your opinion clear. 20:17:15 madnificent: i suggest adding a cliki page for a #lispbot and having minion point people who might find it useful that way. 20:17:40 but, on my 1.0.24, the same transformation is applied to the regular definition. 20:18:00 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 20:18:16 (and I get the same timing for both versions) 20:18:50 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4a47.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 20:19:02 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:19:14 pkhuong, aha, I'm in 1.0.18 on x86-64 20:19:52 OT: Does anyone know where this pic was taken: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/382992.jpg ? 20:20:13 yakov_ [n=yakov__@95-28-51-19.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:20:17 mjonsson: look at the disassembly. They might not be different at all. On such tight loops subtle issues like the alignment of code can make a huge difference. 20:20:34 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 20:21:34 in any case, if you really want to lie to the compiler, you can do (deftype index () '(and unsigned-byte fixnum)) (defun fib (x) (declare (optimize...) (type index x) (values index)) (if (< x 2) x (+ (fib (1- x)) (fib (- x 2))))) 20:21:39 ah, the joys of microoptimization 20:22:14 mjonsson: non of this will actually teach you to optimize lisp code though.... 20:22:31 -!- yakov_ [n=yakov__@95-28-51-19.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 20:22:34 pkhuong: you could do this without lying, too (you'd have to figure out the bounds though) 20:22:47 salex: yes, or use modular arithmetic like C. 20:22:57 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 20:22:58 right. 20:23:32 i'll point out that a simple (speed 3) and no typing only costs you a factor of 2 here, and you aren't lying 20:24:54 iow, you're not achieving anything that useful mjonsson, and heading in the wrong direction prolly. 20:25:16 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 20:25:23 if i want to create several functions within one macro, how can i do that? it seems that it only evaluates the last backquoted expression 20:25:32 mjonsson: the question i have is what application you are writing that will benefit from a very fast unsafe and potetially incorrect fibonacci function? 20:25:47 bakkdoor: it returns the last expression, just like a normal function 20:26:00 bakkdoor: so, use PROGN 20:26:01 bakkdoor: collect them up in a single expression 20:26:03 drewc: yeah i know, can i use progn? 20:26:07 ah alright 20:26:39 drewc: it's actually a very slow unsafe and potentially incorrect fib. function 20:26:49 "PROG2 Considered Harmful"? 20:26:55 pkhuong, after uninterning fib and fib2 I now get the same speed, although both are taking 4 seconds now whereas earlier one of them was taking 2 seconds 20:27:17 mjonsson: did you get fooled by gc time on one? 20:27:17 drewc, I am not going to use fib in reality, but I am using it as a learning ground 20:27:25 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:27:26 salex, nope, they consed 0 20:27:32 you're learning the wrong ground :P 20:27:33 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:34 mjonsson: learning what though? 20:27:46 learning what not to do, perhaps :) 20:28:11 drewc, fine, I'll come up with a better test case 20:28:22 micro-optimizing-benchmarks is not likely to teach you much. 20:28:34 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:28:41 b 20:29:01 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:29:03 -!- pkhuong_ is now known as pkhuong 20:29:22 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@72-255-24-241.client.stsn.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:29:37 mjonsson: my suggestion would be to write an application, profile it, then optimize the hotspots for a big gain. These are good skills to have as a lisp developer. 20:29:44 drewc, a factor of 2 is big in my book because I spend most of my time being bottlenecked by the cpu 20:29:58 anyway, as for the difference w/ gcc, I'd tend to blame the weird calling convention; there's pretty much no overhead on the arithmetic or dynamic typing. That's all this microbenchmark is doing (recursive calls). 20:30:11 drewc: how exactly would you use progn within a macro to generate a single expression out of several ones? 20:30:14 mjonsson: hopefully not computing fibonacci inefficiently. 20:30:30 bakkdoor: (progn (foo) (bar)) is a single expression. 20:30:36 mjonsson: you really aren't paying attention 20:30:47 a) if you're worried about speed, you are using a bad algorithm 20:30:55 bakkdoor: `(progn (expression1) (expression2) ... (expressionn) 20:30:58 ) 20:31:38 b) how do you know what you are fiddling with with fib is generalizable 20:31:58 c) your path here is almost textbook premature opt. 20:32:16 ok thanks 20:32:18 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@72-255-24-241.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:21 i.e. identify the wrong problem, then tweak it until it's a bit faster but incorrect 20:32:29 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:32:30 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-049-238.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:41 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:32:59 salex, I don't care about the particular problem. I know about high-level optimization and profiling. I just want to learn how to do microoptimization 20:33:33 btw: (time (fib 40)) => 102334155 Evaluation took: 0.000 seconds of real time 20:33:45 fwiw, your first code, with all the declares removed 20:34:03 :P 20:34:37 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:41 salex, not on my machine 20:34:52 yup, if you did it the way I just did 20:34:56 (original run took 10s) 20:35:00 you figure it out.... 20:35:12 basic speed/space tradeoff 20:35:15 salex, I know fib can be done in linear time and even logarithmic if that is what you are insinuating 20:35:21 salex, or with memoization 20:35:23 mjonsson: microoptimising a useless microbenchmark teaches nothing. 20:35:34 anyway, if you insist on microoptimizing 20:35:41 do it with the code you've actually got trouble with 20:36:00 after you've found a good algorithm for whatever it is 20:36:18 ... but in a case like this, you may want to get rid of the recursion 20:36:31 interesting .. 20:36:33 *slyrus_* spent to much time microoptimizing code for his thesis project 20:36:40 s/to much/too much/ 20:37:09 mjonsson: on my pc here, i lose 1/100 of a second with all optimizations removed. 20:37:42 slyrus_: you're hardly alone 20:37:44 :) 20:37:46 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:37:47 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:37:56 -!- pkhuong_ is now known as pkhuong 20:38:08 slyrus_: i think we've all done so at one point, hence our aversion to mjonsson's practice here. 20:38:26 salex: if mjonsson wants to toy with it, why shouldn't he? 20:38:52 I also wish I had spent more time learning how to use mcclim when I was doing my thesis. could have made for some nice visualization of the maps I was building. instead I did everything in static pdfs/pngs/etc... 20:38:53 mjonsson: seriously, the thing about microoptimization is that it is full of quirks and tricks, most of which won't show up in a given problem, so assuming generalities isn't a great idea 20:39:27 now I've moved on from image processing to chemistry :) 20:39:49 madnificent: well, it could be ok at that. but typically it has negative value, which is why I was warning off 20:40:08 madnificent: are you being contrary simply for the sake of being contrary today? :) 20:40:35 (negative value ime, at least) 20:40:42 knapr [n=hask@h78n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:41:03 drewc, somehow (time (fib 40)) without the declarations doesn't finish in even a minute now for me 20:41:17 how much overhead does a lisp-environment have? are all lisps bootstrapped? can you program on as low a level as C in lisp? 20:41:17 madnificent: mjonsson is free to waste his time as much as he wants... but when he comes asking for advice, nobody in their right mind would advise that he waste his time. 20:41:39 knapr: it depends, it depends, and it depends. 20:41:51 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:42:04 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:42:42 knapr: SBCL, for example, has a lot of overhead, is written in almost pure common lisp, and you can program in ASM, so lower level than C. 20:42:51 knapr: all lisps are bootstrapped. not all of them off other lisps 20:42:57 knapr: you can program C in lisp if you need to. Typically it's a pain in the ass for the same reasons a C, and you'll wite it a bit faster, but it will run a bit slower. On average, that's all. 20:43:19 masm [n=user@a83-132-153-17.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:43:23 but note "program C in lisp". it's fairly unnatural 20:43:48 mjonsson: how odd. what was your platform? 20:44:11 drewc, I suspect sbcl is now completely confused by previous versions of fib, although I don't understand why it should be 20:44:18 mjonsson: or did you mess up the code somehow when removing the decls and are now recursing infinitely? 20:44:20 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:48 drewc: no, not at all. I simply hate it when people throw ideas around like "you're not getting it" (which is unlikely and unclear) or when they are attacking people that are not here to defend themselves 20:45:01 salex: according to those studies (that study?) norvig linked to, lisp programs were faster, on average, than c++/c counterparts, although the fastest c/c++ programs were faster than lisp. 20:45:14 drewc, the code is identical apart from the declarations 20:45:26 salex: http://norvig.com/java-lisp.html <-- 20:45:30 sykopomp: my point applies at the fast end of the spectrum, not at the "complicated" end 20:45:45 madnificent: these people aer in fact contributing to solving the OP's problems, where are you are jsut complaining about their methods... which is more useful? 20:45:47 what is the #common lisp# peoples opinion on Clojure(listp for the JVM)? 20:45:54 knapr: love it 20:45:56 my point was, you can write something very like c code in common lisp, and it tends to be similarly fast to c 20:45:57 salex: phone number translation certainly doesn't seem to me like a "complicated" algorithm. 20:46:01 not that you *want* dto do this 20:46:09 drewc, sbcl 1.0.18.debian on amd-64 20:46:12 ah, yes 20:46:16 mjonsson: you might have confused the compiler with all those declarations ... 20:46:23 sykopomp: erm, complicated isn't quit the right work 20:46:25 *word 20:46:38 IIRC there is a bug somewhere where old declarations might get applied to new definitions of functions (or something).. 20:46:41 i mean, sometimes because lisp is lisp, you end up writing a very differen program than you would in c 20:46:45 which may be faster 20:46:53 I wonder, does SBCL have a tree shaker, and/or are there plans to have one? 20:47:15 sykopomp: no, and yes-but-no :) 20:47:34 there was a proof of concept at one point .... 20:47:38 IIRC .. 20:47:47 drewc: "it would be nice, I guess" but it's too much work to really be worth it, and no one really cares much to go ahead and do it? 20:48:21 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 20:48:37 what does a tree shaker do? 20:48:55 sykopomp: i'd say that's accurate :) 20:49:08 yanks out the parts of lisp you don't use, so your image/executable is smaller (faster? I don't know?) 20:49:10 -!- appletizer [i=a@82-32-123-68.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:16 sykopomp: very much like threads on win32, I think. You need a rare combination of time, ability and need/interest. 20:49:19 ohhhh 20:49:20 neat 20:49:28 madnificent, thanks, I agree 20:49:28 lispworks has one, IIRC 20:49:34 drewc: part of what I said was back to the lisp-bot-part. I generally don't like it when someone's trying to learn something and is being ridiculed whilst asking something about it (or whilst trying something). I have helped people too, but somehow I didn't need to be a pita for that. 20:49:42 pkhuong: or funding ;_; 20:50:05 aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-18-82.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:28 sykopomp: I thought there was something about that on cliki... 20:50:52 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:52 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:51:22 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:55 sykopomp: just a note apparantly (http://www.cliki.net/Creating%20Executables) 20:52:02 drewc, without declarations and after restarting sbcl I get 5.983 seconds, so it's about 50% slower 20:52:09 madnificent: if you can identify a behaviour that is both very common, and a huge waaste of time (or worse) it isn't a pita to encourage not doing it 20:52:23 even if very occasionally you get it wrong for an unusual case 20:53:52 salex: sometimes there is more to communication than the raw message :) What you say (now and have said) is true 20:54:42 fwiw, i don't think there was anything wrong with above raw message. 20:55:13 if I have to wait hours for a job to finish, spending some time learning how to do microoptimization doesn't seem wasted to me, and it plays a role in judging whether should even use lisp or not for my project 20:55:32 I agree fib may be a bad case study 20:55:42 mjonsson: yeah, that was the point above 20:55:47 not that microopt is never useful 20:56:02 (btw, do you know you're using the best alg for where you are actually getting stuck?) 20:56:19 what is your project, roughly? 20:56:56 mjonsson: the best part about using lisp is how easy it is to change the algorithm to find the one best suited to your application. 20:57:02 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:57:39 mjonsson: if you've abstracted properly, you can even delay the decision! :) 20:58:44 mjonsson: in SBCL you can actually use ASM directly.. and regardless there is FFI, so if the only way to do it fast enough is C (doubtful), you can just do it in C and do the rest in lisp. 20:59:14 salex, the project is exploratory and partly numerical 20:59:20 mjonsson: so, in selecting lisp, speed need not be a primary concern. 21:00:13 mjonsson: in the case of a numerical application .. getting the right answer (bignums, rationals) might be more important that getting it fast (ints and floats). 21:00:24 *drewc* is just blathering now 21:01:19 not really, it's true 21:01:22 mjonsson: are you delivering on amd64 as well? 21:01:35 i've done a fair bit of microoptimizing to get runtime down from months to hours 21:01:45 drewc, probably, but I don't want to commit to any particular cpu achitecture 21:01:50 Apart for the numerical stuff, another bottleneck I have had is read-line (huge data sets) 21:01:53 but lisp is a good help to get things in shape first off 21:02:06 what sort of data set mjonsson ? 21:02:27 salex, data in CSV form, streamed from another process 21:02:31 i mean, what is the format. and define "huge" please (I think of multiple Gb as huge) 21:02:43 mjonsson: then what you are doing is almost useless, as i get drastically differing times on x86 with your declarations :) 21:02:43 salex, yes, multiple Gb 21:02:49 mjonsson: yeah .. that's an issue 21:02:53 ah, ok. so you have to parse text. 21:03:08 lisp is somewhat laggard when doing IO 21:03:16 the numerical stuff is probably workable, you can bum numerical stuff into good shape 21:03:19 i/o is harder 21:03:25 totally.\ 21:03:52 C is rather laggard when doing unicode IO too. 21:04:00 you can parse by hand (avoiding read) pretty quickly 21:04:04 pjb: an excellent point 21:04:06 read is powerful & slow 21:04:06 *hefner* wonders if you pay such a penalty just doing read-sequence of u-b 8's 21:04:10 slowish 21:04:26 hefner: no, it's pretty good, except you can't typically mem map 21:04:36 antoni [n=antoni@151.pool85-53-2.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:04:36 hefner: that's pretty good in my expereince 21:04:48 mjonsson: so if hte format is simple, you could do that 21:04:55 if not, it may be a pita 21:04:59 so if I do manual parsing and read-sequence it should be faster than read-line? 21:05:04 vastly 21:05:06 ime 21:05:07 cool 21:05:09 salex: not any harder than in C though. 21:05:13 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-049-238.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:05:24 drewc: no, but we try to avoid that 21:05:31 maybe not all that much easier :) 21:05:37 I rewrote the xpm parser in mcclim along these lines (going from read-line and strings to one big byte vector), it helped a lot 21:05:44 and if you're trying to do some data processing, it's a pita to have to write a parser first :) 21:06:53 if you have so much data, why's it in text format? :) 21:07:05 I typically read in largish (10's to 100s' Mb) binary files in reasonable time. If your parsing step isn't to heavy on top of that, it should be fine 21:07:21 hefner has a good question though. Gb of csv seems a bit self defeating 21:07:33 mixed types? 21:07:38 hefner, for ease of inspection mostly, no other reason 21:07:39 hi 21:07:52 hefner, and I didn't decide the format 21:08:13 mjonsson: but you can't get hold of it in another form? 21:09:03 salex, short of converting it myself and implementing readers/writers, no 21:09:05 mjonsson: pre-process even? 21:09:52 oh, and I don't have enough quota to store the result 21:10:01 quota? 21:10:07 mjonsson: without knowing more about your problem, I think the short answer is: it can be made fast enough, but some bits may be a bit fiddly 21:10:13 drewc: hd space, I suspect 21:10:27 hd space is a hell of a lot cheaper than programmer time. 21:10:43 drewc: probably student, then 21:10:54 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:10:54 ahh of course .. i always forget that bit. 21:11:11 mjonsson: i've certainly handled data on this order reasonably fast, and expensive numerics as well 21:11:26 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-104-124.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:11:27 in lisp. it's a nice language for research 21:11:58 salex, good. I think if I can halve the reading time it will not be a bottle neck for most of the time anymore 21:12:29 mjonsson: i suspect you can do better than that :) 21:12:35 -!- phromo [i=phromo@c-e065e455.015-359-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 21:13:15 i had an order of magnitude speed increase when i did something similar. YMMV of course. 21:13:53 even having a faster read-line might be enough 21:14:05 i'm already parsing within the line 21:16:12 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 21:17:15 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4677.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:17:36 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:17:51 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 21:18:14 what sort of numerics, roughly speaking (lin alg?, dyn. systems?) 21:18:23 stochastic proc? 21:18:51 stats? 21:18:51 salex, since this is exploratory i can't really predict that 21:18:56 salex, probably some stats yes 21:19:01 and linalg 21:19:21 so I could possibliy use some bindings to gsl or somesuch library if I have to 21:19:56 ah, you earlier made it sound like you had actual numbers on this 21:20:09 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-220.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 21:20:17 in that case, no point worrying about speed yet until you measure it's too slow 21:20:30 but yes, there are libraries and bindings available to help with many things 21:21:04 you should have some rough idea of what you want to do with the data though, right? 21:21:17 I mean exploratory doesn't usually mean "no clue" ;) 21:22:06 salex, I'd say with the right algorithms and assuming that the IO can be fixed, numerics will be the bottleneck 21:22:27 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:23:47 micro-optimization may allow me to keep the numerics in lisp 21:23:58 that was understood 21:24:17 i was asking something different, just curious what sort of problem domain your playing with 21:24:36 salex, financial 21:25:48 topical 21:25:56 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 21:26:32 I'm playing around with stuff in the evenings in lisp and haskell (which my employer allows but I'm not paid to do) and during the day I do java stuff 21:26:58 -!- Hellnar [i=Hellnar@88.235.127.47] has left #lisp 21:29:25 haskell is nice but space leaks due to lazyness annoys me and it is generally not as interactive as lisp 21:31:30 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-227-13.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:37 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-217.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:23 do any you guys work with lisp and if so in what problem domain? 21:32:24 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:25 mjonsson: i work in lisp. database-type stuff and front-ends mostly, also our new internal billing and provisioning system is mostly lisp. 21:33:54 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 21:33:55 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 21:34:03 drewc, is it fun work? 21:34:43 mjonsson: not really... it's work. Beat's the hell out of, say, roofing ... but i'd rather be sailing. 21:34:48 beats 21:34:57 where the hell did that ' come from? 21:35:04 *drewc* glares at drewc 21:35:33 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:35:40 drewc: "join the army they said, see the world they said..." 21:36:19 schools should either teach cs people more engineering or teach engineering people more cs 21:36:34 mjonsson: signal processing, machine learning, etc. 21:36:59 i dislike the chasm between the two and the unnatural division of labor 21:37:10 manic12: 100% agree. 21:37:34 or, rather, i think that programming is an engineering discipline, and should be taught as such. 21:37:44 drewc: wow, i didn't expect that 21:38:01 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.158.129] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:38:12 beach` [n=user@58.186.158.129] has joined #lisp 21:38:14 beach [n=user@58.186.158.129] has joined #lisp 21:38:17 Good morning 21:38:25 An engineering discipline? 21:38:37 nyef: you know what i mean! 21:38:49 I'm not sure that I do, actually. 21:39:05 e.g. "software engineering"; limited success so far, mostly due to lack of fundamentals afaics 21:39:07 anyone have a favorite secure web programming book/text/tutorial? everything seems disparate and tool specific. 21:39:09 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:39:10 programming is an art, like architecture 21:39:15 our software engineer doesn't understand enough mechanical engineering, and our mechanical engineers think software is voodoo 21:39:15 which doesn't make it a crazy idea. 21:39:31 some of it is 21:39:35 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 21:39:50 which is part of the problme 21:39:56 fusss: it's quite simple. used prepared queries and escape for html before sending down the pipe. 21:40:01 -!- beach` [n=user@58.186.158.129] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:18 salex, that sounds like fun work. I've done DSP stuff for musical audio processing. Who is your employer, if you don't mind? 21:40:22 fusss: the rest is just standard 'don't keep the root password in a type=hidden' :) 21:40:24 and this is the lisp channel, right? I haven't come to the C++ channel and stated the same thing - though valid there 21:40:36 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:40:54 mjonsson: i'm an academic (research maths) 21:41:02 drewc: in my case i want to allow html form submission (i.e. posted text will end up being a webpage) do I need to sanitize the accepted html or do i need to do this behind some authentication and drop the guards for allowed users? 21:41:03 salex, should've guessed :) 21:41:22 by now, our TI engineering calculators should be TI explorers 21:41:27 fusss: good questions .. depends on the application. 21:41:34 guessed how? ;) 21:41:38 fusss: I'd sanitize either way 21:41:44 fusss: you may think about using a framework like elephant. And yes, you need to escape whatever goes in the database (unless it is a precompiled query) 21:41:45 fusss: my recommendation would be to sanitze regardless 21:42:02 ok 21:42:02 mjonsson: i've worked in industry too, medical devices, embedded stuff, systems 21:42:05 fwiw 21:42:07 madnificent: how does elephant solve his problem? 21:42:28 fusss: There's a Coding Horror blog entry on just this topic... Maybe more ethan one... 21:42:30 fusss: it's still a hard problem though .. what _do_ you allow? 21:42:34 madnificent: did you mean uc/weblocks/symbolicweb/araneida? i kid about the last one ;-) 21:43:01 salex, by how interesting the stuff sounds. What uni are you at? 21:43:01 drewc: by assigning stuff to objects, the backend will handle the safe storing in the database. 21:43:16 drewc: time to buckle down and read some LAMPPPR books i guess 21:43:17 madnificent: and .. how does that prevent XSS? 21:43:23 fusss: no, just the object-mapping to the database :) 21:43:36 mjonsson: houston, at the moment (medical center projects) 21:43:37 drewc, fusss: not talking about SQL-injection here? 21:44:04 madnificent: fuss said " in my case i want to allow html form submission (i.e. posted text will end up being a webpage) do I need to sanitize the accepted html or do i need to do this behind some authentication and drop the guards for allowed users?" 21:44:05 fusss: Let me know if you find any good reading material. 21:44:08 i wish there were a channel for what i am saying 21:44:08 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:44:09 madnificent: that too. will figure out later. must read first. 21:44:14 ahaas: ok 21:44:20 manic12: make one.... ;) 21:44:32 i would be the only one there 21:44:42 fusss: it's a lot easier to disallow html and use some kind of alternate markup .. though personally i don't like that solution. 21:44:42 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:49 salex, ah. was it hard to go back from industry to academia? 21:44:54 drewc: okay, we picked different issues from that. XSS needs to be handled too :) 21:45:17 fusss: the clean simple solution I would use is to parse the html, and strip out everything not on a whitelist 21:45:26 fusss: using prepared queries removes any chance of sql injection .. 21:45:32 err madnificent ^ 21:45:49 salex, what would I call it? 21:45:50 mjonsson: not at the time, as I went from industry to grad school. post ph.d it's a more difficult street to make 2-way (at least in most disciplines, afaics) 21:45:50 kpreid: that's the best way imo as well. 21:46:06 fusss: as I said :) 21:46:23 fusss: sorry, that was for drewc (damn you with your wrong naming :P) 21:46:29 if I wanted to do a more permissive system, I would look into piping the input html through Caja ( http://code.google.com/p/google-caja/ ) 21:46:46 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:46:48 user____ [n=user@p54926920.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:56 salex, luckily I don't have a Ph.D so that option is still open for me :) 21:47:01 computers are tools or toys? 21:47:14 kpreid: oooohh shiny! 21:47:35 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:49 drewc: as may be of interest: XSS is generally tackled by modern browsers too (at least, firefox got angry at me whilst I was fiddling with it) 21:47:49 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 21:48:12 drewc: I've been working on something related to the the JavaScript end of it; I don't know much about the HTML version. but AFAIK it should do just fine for the "take some random html and put it in my web page, safely" use case 21:48:20 s/version/component/ 21:48:21 mjonsson: you and thousands of others, in this economy! 21:48:29 mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 21:48:48 madnificent: tell that to myspace and/or facebook . who both got nailed recently. It's not enough, and you rely on the client, which you _never_ do as a rule. 21:49:35 madnificent: an application secured for the 10% of users that use FF is not secure. 21:49:44 salex, yeah 21:49:46 it seems to me that accepting input on the web is a bit like riding a bicycle in the city 21:49:54 drewc: agreed, it was just a notion of interest. Clearly you need to tackle it yourself (same issue as javascript validation of forms ;)) 21:50:00 Employee::Employee(std::string name_of, float p 21:50:02 in both cases, you're mostly ok if you assume everyone else out there is actively trying to kill you 21:50:03 oops 21:50:09 in your experience would it be true to say: "OO is good for modeling unchanging systems, functional programming for chnaging ones?" 21:50:30 huh? 21:50:44 knapr, changing in what way? 21:50:50 knapr: no .. in my experience, i use both at the same time, and all systems change. 21:51:09 knapr: in my experience, that's far too broad a generalization to be possibly true 21:51:23 rather, a) dynamic languages are good at modeling changing systems. b) all systems change. 21:51:24 :P 21:51:30 (is CLOS functional or OO?) 21:51:31 in certain lisp-cad applications, the whole point is that the oo system dynamically changes 21:51:49 Icad for instance 21:52:00 drewc: faked OO? 21:52:08 madnificent: huh? 21:52:26 faked? er, no. 21:52:27 functional can be done in pretty much any language 21:53:22 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-177.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:53:26 drewc: it is OO, built on top of a functional language :) (and I'd say it counts as full fledged OO) 21:53:42 does eric marsden have a different e-mail address than the one on laas.fr? 21:53:45 madnificent: you are thinking of something else perhaps ... because lisp is not a functional language. 21:54:04 knapr: to make your question slightly less fuzzy, you might want to specify whether you mean change as in "we need to modify the program" or as in "the input value varies with time" 21:54:15 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:55:16 "functional can be done in pretty much any language" this is a variant of "turing complete", and about as telling. 21:56:01 this whole afternoon of comments is giving me deja vue though 21:56:19 i should procrastinate somewhere else. or better yet, work. 21:56:21 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 21:56:33 "vu" 21:56:34 salex: the functional (purely ...) came around last week too. But then it turned to haskell:) 21:57:12 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:18 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:37 salex, not that I want to dwell on it, but i meant to say that functional and OO are more or less orthogonal 21:58:30 and the in between axis is foo? 21:59:12 -!- user___ [n=user@p54926B7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:46 somewhat offtopic, but functional != fully functional (that was last weeks one) 22:00:14 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-58-237.man.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Gone."] 22:00:54 for some reason I feel like if I am not emitting html from lisp and connecting to a relational database i am an outcast 22:01:12 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@99.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:01:51 i meant change as changing specifications, 22:03:35 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:03:40 knapr, I personally think using monads makes change hard, but please don't ask me for any evidence to back it up 22:04:39 monads are great if your monad factoring is fixed 22:04:47 knapr: why are you asking this in a lisp channel? Obviously, in a multi-paradigm dynamic language, we use both OO and functional programming, and change is easy. 22:05:11 functional is only semi-supported 22:05:40 knapr: try #smalltalk vs #haskell for some answers from people who use different definitions of your fuzzy query terms :) 22:05:59 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 22:06:00 -!- _8david` [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:06:03 a lot of higher-order control constructs are not even attempted with lisp because both the syntax is clunky, and the semantics doesn't guarantee proper tail calls 22:06:10 _8david` [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:06:18 (go use scheme for that) 22:07:39 Fare: if the lambda syntax was less clunky, you could easily trampoline (ala clojure actually) and get the benefits of tail calls with very little overhead.... 22:08:03 (or, you don't need tail calls to be functional imo) 22:08:20 Fare: i'm just arguing though .. cause i actually agree with you. 22:10:11 You may easily play a joke on a man who likes to argue -- agree with him. -- Edgar Waston Howe 22:10:48 Fare, try playing that joke all the time 22:11:04 manic12, OK 22:11:09 -!- user____ [n=user@p54926920.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:11:15 thanks Fare 22:11:22 :D 22:13:33 Fare, what do you do with people who are convinced they know everything? 22:15:06 manic12: instead of 'but', you say 'and'. This old trick has made many a know it all agree with my point, because you make it seem like theirs :) 22:15:09 kpreid: you knowledgeable web weenie! capabilities for javascript, how delightful! 22:15:22 I roast them on a stick on a coal fire, while pouring boiling oil on them 22:15:32 hi fare 22:15:34 i still have to learn secure form processing, but caja looks interesting 22:15:53 drewc, i'll remember that 22:16:35 Fare, unfortunately that is illegal here 22:17:24 what do you do with people who are convinced they know 22:17:25 everything? 22:17:27 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:37 --- nothing, they won't be 14 forever 22:18:17 what if the individual is 30 years old and is disinforming the management 22:18:30 drewc: he already asked in #haskell 22:18:38 (I should trust more in the management) 22:18:45 manic12: fire them. or arrange for that to happen. 22:18:54 fusss: aagh. I thought I stopped being a web weenie. 22:18:59 buhuhuhuhahahaha! 22:19:35 kpreid: ahh .. a not so subtle troll then perhaps. 22:19:36 (reminds me of one favorite communist joke. So this guy goes to hell, and sees two lines. One leads to "capitalist hell", and almost no one seems to line up there. One leads to "communist hell" and everyone seems to line up at the entrance. The guy asks "what happens in communist hell?" "oh, we roast you on a stick on a coal fire, while pouring boiling oil on you". "And what happens in capitalist hell?" "just the same". "Then why do every one 22:19:36 line up for the communist hell?" "because there, they're out of coal and out of oil". 22:19:44 i'm sure he would come back with his AK 22:19:52 haha 22:20:22 :) 22:20:33 manic12, thanks for closing that paren. 22:20:39 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:39 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:41 np 22:20:47 kpreid: oh! in that case, i have a library of SGI and Microsoft manuals to donate to you, not to mention tshirts, conference badges, awards and for $1 in shipping and handling, i will throw in 12 years of free experience. 22:21:18 if you can't get them fired -- short sell the company 22:21:25 -!- dialtone_ is now known as dialtone 22:21:40 drewc: possibly, but I don't think it's especially likely 22:22:02 fusss: pardon, but I don't get it 22:22:48 drewc: I still think that explicit trampolining is a clunky work-around 22:22:57 fusss: caja requires Java, so it isn't a 'pure' solution 22:23:38 kpreid: yesterday, we were told the future platform would be distributed "components" talking to each other over RPC; i bought that hook line and sinker. just a bitter personal history. til 2005, i was messing with open inventor and COM. 22:24:11 now i know the future is twitter and facebook apps talking to each other over http. yep. 22:24:34 i used to fart with COM 22:24:48 fusss: don't forget SOAP :-) 22:25:28 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.119.74] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:25:40 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:26:08 Fare: you thanking manic12 for closing the paren was a lot funnier than the joke :P 22:27:15 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 22:27:46 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:57 i would have thought the capitalist line was non-existent because they were so efficient at getting all the people in? 22:31:19 a line for communist hell would have three officials inspecting condemnation forms and police officers keeping the queue straight with batons and tear gas 22:32:00 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-23-234.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [] 22:32:06 fusss: and as of tomorrow, the capitalist hell will have a 50$ entrance fee. 22:32:14 *madnificent* gets ready to run 22:32:20 and besides, a communist hell is often mislabeled as "Utopia" 22:34:08 "to efficient at getting all the people in" bwhahahah. when did you last fly through a major hub? 22:34:25 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:34:59 i wouldn't consider the monopolistic and often state owned airlines "capitalist" 22:35:16 ok, carry on misreading the joke then. 22:35:37 even taxi cabs are subject to licensing and zoning restrictions; every major city has a limit on the number of cab licenses it issues 22:35:39 :P 22:36:12 this way lies a very boring and off topic conversation, i'm out 22:36:15 i thought the capitalist were out of oil and wood because they exhausted their resources? 22:36:22 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:36:55 sorry, i'm touchy about communism, i grew up in one :-S 22:37:00 Hmm.. 22:37:07 *schme* checks to see if this is #lisp 22:38:13 fusss: Have you looked at the GettingStarted wikipage of google-caja? how do you plan to integrate it with your system? 22:38:15 fusss: it wasn't touchy so much as missing-the-point. anyway, offtopic and done with 22:38:16 rvirding: i might agree with you actually .. (might), but lacking tail calls is not a show stopper given them. 22:39:27 madnificent: i haven't looked that closely, just read the intro article/peptalk 22:39:27 salex: cheers! 22:40:01 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:40:53 rvirding: i've been doing some clojure recently, and the trampoline is quite useful. 22:41:21 fusss: wiki is at http://code.google.com/p/google-caja/wiki/GettingStarted skip over it and see if you get the same 'ugh' feeling. (whatever your findings are, I'm interested) 22:41:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_platform 22:41:46 oops, wrong window, sorry people 22:42:43 ferada [n=ferada@g224145135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:43:28 huh, that setup-and-checkout procedure is complicated. I didn't do any of that, but maybe it's necessary for something 22:43:54 kpreid: caja? 22:44:07 yes 22:44:08 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:44:52 when I look at the wiki, I have the feeling that it's some major bloated thing. Is that correct, or is it actually an easy thing to work with? 22:44:59 i get a nice error (slime, sbcl): Unable to display error condition [Condition of type UNBOUND-SLOT] 22:45:09 how am i supposed to trace that? 22:45:28 madnificent: yyyeah, looks iffy 22:45:30 the offending code tries to create an instance of a rucksacked class 22:45:35 java stack 22:45:44 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:45:54 timor: show us the code 22:46:38 timor: did you forget to do so in a transaction? 22:46:42 timor: oh wait .. 22:46:58 you are returning an instance and then trying to print it outside the transaction. 22:47:34 drewc: I quite agree that trampoline is useful, I just meant that it is a poor work-around for the lack of TCO 22:48:16 madnificent: I don't know. I have only really looked at the Cajita runtime component (the JS library for supporting sandboxed-JS execution), which seemed not-unreasonable. The majority of the code is probably the part implementing the JS and HTML rewriters (which iiuc are currently in Java but might become JS) - but I don't know. Also -- it is very much not-yet-finished (but working) 22:48:24 -!- Quadresce` is now known as Quadrescence 22:48:27 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-193.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 22:48:55 rvirding: i think it's a pretty good workaround myself... i don't miss tail calls. Then again, i don't write very 'functional' to begin with. 22:49:14 timor pasted "rucksack instance creation error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73446 22:49:37 drewc: that's the problem I do write functional and use them alot. :-) 22:49:44 timor: where is your with-transaction? 22:49:56 and having to think about it would cramp my style 22:50:16 drewc: last time i checked it didnt work with with-transaction either 22:50:41 timor: with-rucksack + with-transaction 22:50:48 z0d: yes 22:50:57 i followed the tutorial very closely 22:51:10 timor: are you doing so at the repl? 22:51:26 drewc: yes 22:51:38 timor: ok, here is where i get socratic .. what does REPL stand for? 22:52:15 (i'm really only looking for the "P" here) 22:52:23 im not that stupid 22:52:37 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-25-1.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:52:38 sigh ... never mind then. 22:52:45 but why would they call make-instance from the repl in the tutorial? 22:53:34 drewc: you say its tries to access a slot outside of a transaction 22:54:23 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:55:28 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:55:39 timor: Read Eval ----> PRINT <---- Loop 22:55:48 drewc: i got it already 22:56:31 drewc: i even asked another question already, and yes, wrapping it in a (progn .. nil) works 22:56:41 but why isnt the debugger any helpful 22:58:08 timor: how does the debugger display the error message? 22:58:33 in this case, it's really the print-object method at fault.. it should check for this situation. 23:00:33 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:00:49 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:01:09 timor annotated #73446 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73446#1 23:01:32 thats the error message in the paste 23:01:40 timor: right .. 23:02:04 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:07 Is there a portable way to test if there is a next method, i.e., if call-next-method will succeed, prior to calling it? 23:02:16 timor: you are tring to print the value outside of a transaction. The debugger is trying to print it as well ... 23:02:31 suspect your print-object method is trying to access an unbound slot 23:02:33 timor: and it can't .. because that's an error. 23:03:14 the applicable print-object method does bad things? 23:03:24 because i havent defined one yet 23:03:30 timor: yes. 23:03:50 you are trying to access a object outside a transaction, which is an error. 23:04:03 salex: i figured as well, but the "error condition" cant be printed 23:04:12 that is what worries me most+ 23:04:20 the error condition is trying to print the object. 23:04:29 *drewc* feels like he's going in circles 23:06:01 that's because drewc is going in circles 23:06:05 (defclass foo () (foo)) (slot-value (make-instance 'foo) 'foo)) and notice the error. 23:06:06 LiamH: next-method-p 23:06:27 ack. a day and a half for a simple 43 line function... 23:06:34 at least it's done-ish 23:06:39 slyrus_: how long was it when you started? :) 23:06:51 *drewc* loves a negative LOC day. 23:07:00 drewc: well, when it first started working it was about two or three times as long :) 23:07:05 slyrus_: win! 23:07:20 that's the spirit! 23:07:52 *hefner* thinks of blade runner every time he hears that phrase 23:08:04 slyrus pasted "hanser style ring perception" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73448 23:08:04 hefner: Perfect! I missed that. Thanks. 23:08:04 inforichland [n=tim@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:39 _8david`: any chance you can fix the mcclim list gadget hefner says you broke? :) 23:08:48 uh oh :) 23:10:19 why were lisp-machines so expensive? because there were so few and it was experimental? could they have been made cheaper? architecture-wise what was different? did it have better support for parallellism? how was performance of those things? any chance well see something like them again? 23:12:39 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:12:45 knapr: perhaps IRC is not the best forum for so many interconnected questions which have answers that are googleable. 23:12:55 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 23:13:04 there are already things like them, azul's java machine, for example 23:13:43 stassats`: "like them" .. meaning the power of genera or the language-specific hardware ;) 23:14:05 drewc: the latter, sure 23:14:14 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:14:26 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:52 ashmawy [n=sdjh@217.54.234.238] has joined #lisp 23:15:14 knapr: one reason is that lisp was never *that* popular and with fast "normal" workstations and good lisp implementations you could run lisp almost as fast and much cheaper 23:15:40 felix^^_ [n=fgeller@dslb-088-074-222-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:49 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4a47.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:49 hello , i am trying to write a function that takes a function as a parameter and check wether that function could only return true or nil and nothing else. is this possible in lisp ? 23:16:17 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:25 ashmawy: (defun foo (fun) (or (eq t (funcall fun)) (null (funcall fun)))) 23:16:29 ashmawy: it is not possible in any turing-complete language, because it's undecidable. 23:16:34 sounds like a halting problem 23:16:49 rvirding: until the last few years of the lisp machines, I don't such workstations really existed 23:17:03 I don't -think-, rather 23:17:14 ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:26 @drewc: fun could have 0 or more arity ... what im doing here is if fun is doesnt take any arguments 23:17:36 no, they didn't, but when they came there was really no reason to buy a lisp machine 23:18:02 maybe, but that doesn't fully address the question 23:18:14 beach: shit ! .... so i guess there is no way around it ? 23:18:20 ashmawy: you'd then have to solve the halting problem. 23:18:21 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-25-1.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:53 ashmawy: let me know if you come up with any, and we'll publish the result. 23:19:17 quite 23:19:45 hefner: ok, true, sort of. But one reason they were expansive is that not that many of them were built because lisp was not that popular 23:19:48 @drewc: I could solve it in for my problem domain by inefficiently checking it for every predicate and object defined. But i want it to be generic and efficient :S 23:19:53 expensive* 23:20:11 ashmawy: why do you need that? 23:20:22 rvirding: many of them were both expensive and expansive 23:20:23 and when fast workstations did arrive there was no market for them 23:20:24 kpreid: so, temporarily, it's a wait and see project? 23:20:33 hefner: :-) 23:20:34 ashmawy: you mean you can prove your entire lisp program correct? i'd like to see that. 23:20:39 a refrigerator-sized box full of circuit boards is bound to cost a fortune 23:20:41 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:20:44 stassats`: im writing a partial order planner . So know im begining to define the first order logic syntax 23:20:50 and they were one-off with complicated hardware 23:21:04 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:16 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:21:33 ashmawy: have you seen ACL2? 23:22:01 madnificent: perhaps, but I don't really know how less-than-it-will-be polished it actually is 23:22:10 @drewc: If i have all possible object for a specific problem stored into a datastruct or whatever and all predicates known , yeah it could be done by repeately checking all possible combinations 23:22:16 madnificent: I could pass on some feedback about your impression if you like (tell me) 23:22:21 @drewc: ACL2 .. nope 23:22:30 minion: tell ashmawy about acl2 23:22:32 ashmawy: direct your attention towards acl2: ACL2 (A Computational Logic for Applicative Common Lisp) is a theorem prover for industrial Applications. http://www.cliki.net/acl2 23:22:55 ashmawy: those are big 'ifs' in a turing complete language. 23:23:49 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:24:22 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:24:31 kpreid: ah, you know the devs? The tutorial frightens me of ultimate Java bloat, and I think it would be best accepted if the server-side was only a minor application, that could be implemented in a variety of languages (which would get my fright away). I may not be their targetted user, but when doing something like that, the crowd coming from other frameworks could be reached more easily too. 23:24:44 madnificent: thanks. 23:27:24 -!- elurin [n=user@85.104.214.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:44 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:56 kpreid: yw. Thanks for passing it through. I'll follow the project and see how it evolves :) 23:28:01 -!- ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:28:16 @drewc: Im checkin out ACL2 ... looks helpfull for my problem and im gonna hang out here and feedback you if i reached anything. Anyways thnx for ur quick replies :) 23:28:40 madnificent: by "the tutorial" you mean the page with download and build instructions? 23:29:14 kpreid: yes, I linked it earlier. GettingStarted 23:31:06 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 23:32:32 -!- felix^^ [n=fgeller@dslb-088-074-220-124.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:14 -!- mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has left #lisp 23:36:52 ashmawy: this is not twitter :) 23:39:34 -!- ferada [n=ferada@g224145135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["leaving"] 23:39:46 -!- clemente [n=Daniel@89.6.42.98] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:42:11 -!- mjonsson [n=mjonsson@pool-71-175-134-12.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:42:47 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:42:53 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 23:44:05 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:44:26 luis: it's a straightjacket, right? 23:45:02 Say if I want to set up part of an assoc list I might set the value of 'hello to "world" or whatever but what if I want to set it's value to (list "world" "foo")? I tried something like this: (push (cons 'key (list value1 value2)) place) but the problem was the cons mixes with the list producing '(key value1 value2) instead of '(key . '(value1 value2)) . 23:45:12 -!- adeht is now known as _adeht 23:45:43 kzar: it means the same 23:45:46 <_adeht> First, `C-c C-q'. Then, `C-c C-t'. Now, `C-c C-i'. Don't complain, or a `slime-keybindings' is in order... best not to update. 23:45:46 kzar: ummm .. you know how lists are made in lisp? 23:45:58 yea, a load of conses 23:46:09 madnificent: no, it's not quite. his second example has an extra QUOTE form. 23:46:23 kzar: (cons 'foo "bar" "baz) is the same as (cons 'foo (cons "bar" (cons "baz" nil))) as (list 'foo "bar" "baz") so for any purpose, it should work the way you intended :) 23:46:31 kzar: ok good :). so, when you set the CDR of a CONS to a list, what do you get? 23:46:44 luis: i guess not , if it was it wouldnt be #lisp @freenode but presumably you still would have thought to state a fact 23:47:05 I guess you just get a bigger list like I saw, thing is won't this mess up assoc? 23:47:10 kzar: or, perhaps the best illustration: (cons t '()) 23:47:25 kzar: not really .. assoc returns the CDR of the cons cell 23:47:38 ah k so disaster averted eh 23:47:49 sorry I guess that was kind of a dumb question 23:48:34 kzar: no worries, the cons/list things is somewhat archaic, and the dot notation can confuse things as well. 23:48:53 archaic, you say? 23:49:11 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:15 is the . notation there for historical reasons? (as in, many languages that use conses, use . for it) 23:49:47 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has joined #lisp 23:49:48 ypsa [n=ypsa@r9dj117.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:50:46 hefner: indeed .. in the sense that lists are second class, and that confused people in a language that is supposed to be about lists. 23:50:49 bluelightningvid [n=camerong@12-219-181-193.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:55 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.240.179.154] has joined #lisp 23:51:28 hefner: archaic is probably too far back .. how about 'classical' :) 23:51:35 is lisp a very advanced language? Don't know if I should try to learn it or not 23:51:41 do any of the people here use LW heavily? 23:51:51 bluelightningvid: very simple language .. very advanced uses. 23:52:19 drewc: where is a good place to learn? I looked at books but they were expensive 23:52:30 bluelightningvid: what is your programming experience? 23:52:42 minion tell bluelightningvid about pcl 23:52:44 drewc: I agree, but don't think of it as a bad thing 23:52:54 of course, I'm not sure what the alternative is 23:52:59 not too great I basically can code any website about it not really programming 23:53:00 hefner: i would not mind 'real' lists 23:53:10 http://paste.lisp.org/display/73449#2 - can someone please take a look at my sb-alien woes? 23:53:22 bluelightningvid: ok.. i have a book for you .. free and online : 23:53:29 minion: tell bluelightningvid about gentle 23:53:30 bluelightningvid: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 23:53:40 The C program in #1 is a function which takes a string as an argument, but lisp doesn't seem to be passing the argument correctly.. 23:54:09 thank you 23:54:23 hefner: that is to say (type-of (make-list 1)) => LIST is something i have had a use for. 23:54:33 drewc: that is a better recommendation (by far). I generally point to pcl at all times 23:54:47 madnificent: PCL is for java programmers ;) 23:54:51 kleppari: how is your FFI for the function defined? 23:55:01 fusss: it's at the top 23:55:13 new programmers would be better of without the comparison to other languages (that the don't know). 23:55:25 drewc: is lisp for programming (programs)? Because I don't get what the artificial intelligence is about 23:55:38 bluelightningvid: you can do anything and everything in it (really) 23:55:43 bluelightningvid: lisp is for programming .. very few of us do, or care, about AI :) 23:55:50 web sites? 23:55:54 AI? 23:55:59 bluelightningvid: i do web apps for a living. 23:56:00 in CL 23:56:10 minion: what does AI stand for? 23:56:10 Antiferment Imagery 23:56:12 -!- bluelightningvid [n=camerong@12-219-181-193.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 23:56:14 heh 23:56:20 bluelightningvid [n=camerong@12-219-181-193.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 23:56:21 bluelightningvid: websites, artificial intelligence, you name it 23:56:32 artificially intelligent websites! 23:56:33 fusss: do you see anything wrong? Because i've been staring at this for a while, and I don't... :) 23:56:44 hefner: zomg! 23:57:06 well I'm 15 hopefully this won't fry my brain :) 23:57:11 fusss, drewc: Any recommending reading on setting up a user login system, controlling privileges, etc.? 23:57:41 Starships, run with engines the size of a walnut! Walnuts... run with engines the size of a starship! 23:57:43 ahaas: i cheat there by using UCW... call/cc helps that case immensely. 23:57:45 (sorry) 23:58:13 bluelightningvid: you can take a peek at cliki.net to find a bunch of readily-made libraries in lisp. It can give you an idea of what has been made. 23:58:19 bluelightningvid: it won't, it'll actually feel natural instead of handcuffed.. 23:58:32 runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 23:58:34 sadly, I have nothing pithy to say about drewc's typep foo 'list 23:58:35 well, except when it comes to interfacing with FFIs ;P 23:58:45 alright thanks 23:58:56 will do right now haha 23:59:02 ahaas: i haven't done multiple access levels, only two; logged in and annonymous (i cheat by giving the admin and a secure page behind which anything goes) 23:59:24 kleppari: staring at the screen is not the most effective troubleshooting strategy 23:59:31 ahaas: hunchentoot sessions (start-session); login form posts auth info, you check it on the server, and set a session value on success 23:59:39 hefner: I know, but I'm out of ideas to check.. 23:59:43 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:59:47 ahaas: i have some crappy code i clean up for you if interested