00:00:00 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-232-39.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:05 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 00:00:10 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:02:13 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [] 00:02:36 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.189.190] has quit [] 00:02:41 -!- trittweil [n=rittweil@rayhalle1.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:03:16 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@217.194.205.196] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:16 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 00:09:01 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.171.34] has joined #lisp 00:12:55 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:14:34 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-232-39.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:17:20 Hrrmm.. I puzzled by how implenting the jack protocol in lisp would actually solve anything for me. It seems to my head that I still need to provide a pointer to the callback, and that will be called by an external thread at random times without sbcl actually knowing this is going on.. no ? 00:18:51 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:19:29 schme: Correct. A callback can be called at any time. The rest of the system is not aware if it, 00:20:09 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 00:20:15 Balooga: Yes, that is what is my problem, it crashes my sbcl. 00:20:41 Balooga: and I have been suggested to stop using FFI, and port the whole protocol.. but I don't see how it will keep the crashing away. 00:20:55 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:21:07 schme: the problem is that the callback is called from a thread that SBCL did not spawn. 00:21:15 pkhuong: Yes. 00:21:36 as long as you avoid that problem, that won't happen. If you reimplement the whole protocol in lisp, then obviously that'll never happen. 00:21:38 pkhuong: And I don't see how implementing the protocol in lisp will make that better :) 00:21:52 but the server is still an external process ? 00:21:57 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:27 pkhuong: But that's the whole point of foreign callbacks, no? 00:22:30 schme: processes don't share memory; the inter-process protocol is obviously not based on callbacks. 00:22:45 Balooga: no, the point is to be able to call foreign code that calls *back* into lisp. 00:23:25 pkhuong: Well I dunno. This is how it works normally., you link with libjack, you put some stuff to connect to jackd, and register callbacks. and jackd has a big looping over all teh registered callbacks and calls 'em. 00:23:53 Hmm.. 00:24:17 Atleast that is what the docs say ;) 00:24:27 pkhuong: Hmm. In my case, I call the SDL library. The SDL library creates a new thread for handling audio. That audio thread calls back into the Lisp process.. Spurious hangs result.... wonder if that isn't my problem. 00:24:50 Balooga: sounds like my issue. ;) 00:25:04 pkhuong: What you are saying about the ipc makes very much sense though. 00:25:11 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-238-145.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:59 Balooga: you could communicate between CL and C via threads and a queue/pipe, but that's obviously a hack. 00:26:00 oooh. 00:26:13 I am starting to see how this beast works. 00:26:30 I love it when the slides describing it does not quite match real life :) 00:26:37 pkhuong: Thanks. :) 00:26:59 I wonder how on earth they manage to keep the latency down. 00:27:20 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-008-100.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:28:15 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["Bye"] 00:30:06 hey schme, hur ar det? 00:31:13 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-015-027.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:46 pkhuong: That'll require a wrapper around the sdl.dll library to manage the audio communication. Yuk. Can't these threads be blessed? Isn't that what blessing is for? 00:31:56 plutonas: Hej man! Det är dejligt! 00:32:08 plutonas: How goes the studies? Enjoying the winter? .) 00:32:09 it's always a new word :P 00:32:16 am back in greece for christmass holidays 00:32:22 going back on the 19th 00:32:23 :) 00:32:26 plutonas: I heard you have water problems. 00:32:33 water problems? 00:32:39 Yup. 00:32:43 what does this mean? 00:32:46 lack of it. 00:32:48 oh 00:32:53 not really 00:32:56 oh :) 00:33:05 it didn't rain until start of december 00:33:10 so people were worried 00:33:14 :( 00:33:19 but i think it rained enough for the whole year while i'm here 00:33:19 :P 00:33:24 aah 00:33:27 "merry xmas rain" 00:33:42 Balooga: dunno. Maybe. 00:33:45 -!- aartist [n=REENA@ool-44c51a97.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:33:48 dunno where you heard that, people are a bit worried all the time, but i didn't experience or hear that someone experienced any lack of water 00:34:03 we had riot problems though :P 00:34:34 is the rioting over now? 00:34:40 plutonas: I have heard that on the radio, ya. 00:34:55 yes was just 4-5 days 00:34:59 It's a riot! 00:35:05 schme: did you have the same in malmoe? 00:35:10 white riot, I wanna riot, white riot, a riot on my own! 00:35:28 i heard they burned some cars etc 00:35:46 plutonas: We didn't really have much of a riot. Just some people torching cars and trying to set houses up in flames and throwing rocks and shooting rockets at the police for a few days. 00:35:57 But it was very much restricted to one specific area of Malmoe. 00:36:03 schme: well thats what we had 00:36:07 rosengard? 00:36:14 the throwing of rocks on the police and fire department is kinda normal there. 00:36:15 Yup. 00:36:21 i see 00:36:31 But so much setting stuff on fire as those days was a bit uncommon. 00:36:36 a girl, friend of mine rented a room there 00:36:38 It's related to the mosque. 00:36:47 ah ya.. quite a few students live out there :) 00:36:52 and she heard the name of the area and thought it would be full of gardens 00:37:01 aaah yes... 00:37:03 haha 00:37:06 the garden of roses. 00:37:09 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:10 yeap 00:37:11 It's mostly concrete ;) 00:37:34 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C4DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:37:43 It's a bit of an odd story. 00:37:46 did you find anyone to rent the room? 00:37:49 odd story? 00:38:15 there was an organization renting a place there in rosengard, and they were using it as a mosque. and maybe 2 years ago the landlord said "ok guys, I need this place for other shit". 00:38:37 and then it took some long time. and finally they got out of there last month. But then came the house squatting kids there. 00:38:45 and after a while of that the police went there to kick 'em out. 00:38:56 and they got all "what! the police walked right in here without taking their shoes off!" 00:39:00 then the madness started. 00:39:22 plutonas: Supposedly we have someone showing up next week for the room. 00:39:36 i'm not against immigration, but when it gets too much it's a problem 00:39:40 But who knows. Maybe they die on the way here. 00:39:46 lol 00:39:50 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:39:54 I love immigration. It's the best thing about Malmoe. 00:40:02 is it? 00:40:06 *beach* agrees 00:40:30 But rosengard is a bit fucked up. There is very high unemployment, and well... immigrants tend to get dumped there. 00:40:39 "ok you go live here with your countrymen, lol!" 00:40:44 and it gets a bit odd. 00:41:01 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:26 i see 00:41:34 it's a bit similar in athens lately 00:41:41 greeks are not so much used to immigrants 00:41:44 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb353d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 00:41:48 integration is a problematic thing :) 00:42:10 well we have a lot of illegal ones too, which usually are not the best guys 00:42:18 Hmm.. 00:42:30 plutonas: from which countries do they go to athens? 00:42:51 I figured a lot of the illegal ones actually were not bad at all. They just pay some *not so good guy* for transporting 'em in. 00:42:52 z0d: the illegal ones? 00:42:55 here we have both sorts, I wonder how hard is it for some of them to get legal 00:42:58 turkey, and african countries 00:43:01 (hopefully transporting 'em in) 00:43:09 but legal ones from every country they can reach europe 00:43:36 we're used to brazillians and people from PALOP, some west-europeans from ex-urss countries and 00:43:40 they pay fortunes to come in by boats, a lot of times the boats are too small and they drown etc 00:43:44 (from *other* PALOPs) 00:43:50 Like the poor family in a war zone somewhere paying some fucktard for transporting 'em in.. they don't know they're illegal :) 00:43:54 the navy saved 15 people 2 days ago 00:44:07 njsg: you mean east? 00:44:12 plutonas: The obvious solution is to bomb greece :) 00:44:20 hm, don't like this 00:44:25 plutonas: sure 00:44:29 :( 00:44:49 i'm not against them, but i think we can't integrate more, they are already too much 00:45:12 Well anyway I personally think that a lot the problems in these kinds of areas are more structural in society than the people actually being all rotten. 00:45:35 sure 00:45:40 our sociaty is rotten 00:45:43 but always rotten people around. 00:45:53 and more people wanting to work just makes it worse 00:45:55 Though I know a lot of rotten "pure breed" swedes. 00:46:08 oh work :) 00:46:13 That's always a bugger. 00:46:19 the took ar jarb! 00:46:25 they even. 00:46:29 schme: albanians face a lot of racism here, and it's because when their communism fell, they opened the prisons and sent prisoners to our country 00:46:31 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-072-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:46:42 so we got a bad impression, and now good people are suffering because of this 00:46:42 plutonas: That's a bad move :) 00:46:43 :P 00:46:52 So, to get back to the topic, what's new in the Lisp world that I missed? 00:46:54 That's a natural reaction I think. 00:46:56 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-24-16-246-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:47:15 beach: Me finally getting why implementing the jack protocol in lisp actually would solve my problem :) 00:47:23 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 00:47:36 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["."] 00:47:37 as opposed to using *FFI? 00:47:48 I took just about three people going "what the heck, are you some kind of dumb? :(" 00:47:58 well the FFI is not usable for this :) 00:48:29 The problem there is that jackd sits around.. and every millisecond or so it goes "hey sbcl! you know that address you gave me! Ya, run the code there! do it!" 00:48:42 and after a while sbcl goes. game over, welcome to the debugger. 00:49:12 buuuut.. with sbcl spawning its own threads. 00:49:14 eeh. 00:49:18 or running its own stuff. 00:49:19 oh 00:49:31 Hrrmm.. and then it occurs all this might be a bad idea :( 00:49:32 darned. 00:49:36 [/rant] 00:49:49 RT issues :) 00:50:46 hmmm.. or maybe if it ran in its own thread that could actually work. 00:51:19 cept with GC :( 00:51:28 you need a real-time GC 00:51:34 Yeees.. 00:51:37 how troublesome. 00:51:58 We know how to write such a thing. 00:52:38 normally one does while (1) { sleep(1); } after having registered the callbacks. But that seems problematic for an sbcl thread I was thinking... maybe it is busy GC-ing. 00:52:46 Well I don't :) 00:53:07 schme: Just rewrite everything in Lisp. 00:53:20 Balooga: you mean jackd? 00:53:30 the serverside bit? 00:54:00 Balooga: I would still have GC issues, no? 00:54:04 is jackd big? 00:54:37 It is not terribly big. But I can't quite see much gain in rewriting it. 00:54:57 I can't imagine GC-ing would be good for the performance of it. 00:55:22 schme: Doesn't Common Music have jackd working with SBCL? 00:55:38 Balooga: I have no idea there. Maybe it does :) 00:55:48 I'll look 00:56:44 schme: You should ask on the CM mailing list. 00:57:16 Hmm.. 00:57:22 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:57:24 I will look for some older version. seems it is just scheme now. 00:58:13 schme: No they maintain the Common Lisp version as well. It's just that they are moving to scheme because, I guess, they were having too many problems with Lisp. 00:59:45 Balooga: I assure you that there is only C++ and scheme in the latest tarball :) 01:01:44 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:01:48 schme: Really? I wonder if that is the main, with the lisp version moved to a different branch then? 01:02:00 Balooga: I think they killed it off when they went 3.x 01:02:35 Balooga: anyway grepping 3.2.4 and some random 2.x balls for -i jack reveals nothing. I suspect it does not use jack :) 01:02:40 schme: That sucks. Easier for them to rewrite everything from scratch in scheme, as opposed to moving on with common lisp, it seems. 01:03:58 So I'm back fixing this stuff. :) 01:04:17 Problem is the protocol is not at all documented, so it's poking around the libjack source and such 'til it works ;) 01:04:20 oh 01:04:25 and yes. the GC of course. 01:04:27 hrrrrm. 01:04:35 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-16-246-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:44 so, beach, what URLs do you recommend for this real time GC? 01:04:50 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 01:05:32 "well maybe I should just write a real time CL from scratch" 01:05:34 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@72-255-25-234.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:48 ok.. it is *that* time of the day. 01:06:23 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 01:06:47 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@adsl-214.ucnet.uoc.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:07:07 teatime? :) 01:07:12 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:07:37 tea for two! 01:07:47 proq: I'm actually listening to that right now :) 01:08:15 *schme* will stop this madness for now and poke with clim-player instead. 01:08:21 Thanks for the suggestion, proq 01:09:00 sure. I just said that because I'm about to get some 01:09:06 :) 01:09:33 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:09:42 -!- rswarbri_ [n=user@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 01:10:02 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 01:10:16 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 01:10:17 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:10:53 Is there a way to convert a relative path like "../" to a absolute path like "/home/user/src/"? I have been looking for a way to do this for a long. 01:11:57 tomoyuki28jp: merge-pathnames 01:14:08 clhs truename 01:14:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tn.htm 01:15:14 kpreid: (merge-pathnames "../" "test.lisp") returns #P"../test.lisp" in SBCL. 01:15:33 tomoyuki28jp: sure, because you gave it two relative pathnames 01:15:52 tomoyuki28jp: but actually, truename is probably what you want 01:16:31 (truename #p"../") 01:17:09 truename actually looks at the filesystem (and *d-p-d*). merge-pathnames is for manipulating pathnames without respect to the filesystem (it uses *d-p-d* as the default for the second argument) 01:18:13 mns_ [n=user@c-76-119-251-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:30 -!- mns [n=user@c-76-119-251-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:18:37 *schme* mutters. 01:18:52 It seems the only decent thing to do is to write a new GC for sbcl. 01:19:20 any volounteers for this thing that no one but me needs and/or wants? :) 01:19:33 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:20 schme: what kind of real-timeness do you need? 01:20:37 kpreid: (truename #p"../") returns #p"/home/" no matter where I evaluate it, and that's not the one I need. 01:20:58 what do you mean "where you evaluate it"? 01:21:09 luis: I'm ok with 1-2ms latency :) 01:21:21 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:40 luis: so nothing hard ;) 01:21:42 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-73-33.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:21:46 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c5ea29f8859c7fb4] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:21:54 just "snappy" response. 01:21:59 schme: and what kind of latency are you getting with gencgc? 01:22:05 kpreid: ex) If I eval it in the file /home/user/src/lisp/test.lisp, I want to get get the absolute path "/home/user/src/lisp/". 01:22:26 luis: I honestly do not know. I have no idea on how to test it. :) 01:22:36 tomoyuki28jp: oh, you want relative to the *source file*, not the *current directory* 01:22:42 luis: The thing I need it for is not yet quite written. 01:23:00 luis: and I don't want to do all that work if it will run into GC issues later on :) 01:23:09 chicken n' egg ;) 01:23:21 (truename (merge-pathnames #p"../" #.(or *compile-file-truename* *load-truename*))) 01:23:23 try that 01:23:30 wait, scratch that 01:23:48 (truename (merge-pathnames #p"../" (load-time-value *load-truename*))) is better 01:24:36 schme: well, then you'll have extra motivation to write a RT GC :-) 01:24:41 kpreid: (load-time-value *load-truename*) returns nil 01:25:03 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:25:03 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:25:04 kpreid: thus the (merge-pathnames ..) raise an error. 01:25:35 luis: Indeed! 01:26:28 oh well. I'll go to sleep. 'night :) 01:26:34 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:09 LOOP is just the greatest thing evar. 01:27:26 Balooga: ITERATE ? 01:27:27 ;) 01:27:30 -!- cmsimon [n=cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:27:31 *schme* pops off. 01:29:10 kpreid: It seems like it works if I compile the file. 01:29:21 schme: yes, iterate is loop + it indents properly! 01:29:29 how much faster is svref than aref? 01:29:45 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5ac802a9.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 01:29:46 I was a big loop user, but I am happily giving it up in favor of iterate. Those loop conditionals are a horror. 01:30:12 tomoyuki28jp: doh 01:30:24 tomoyuki28jp: ok, I was just tryin to be robust at compile-OR-load 01:30:45 tomoyuki28jp: but I failed since l-t-v isn't guaranteed to be run at non-compiled-LOAD time 01:31:22 tomoyuki28jp: ok, so just write (defparameter *dir* (truename (merge-pathnames #p"../" *load-truename*))) 01:31:28 (at the top level of the file) 01:31:31 that *will* work 01:31:47 for instance; will LOOP use svref or aref with ACROSS? Or will LOOP for i .... (SVREF array i) be quicker? 01:32:03 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:03 kpreid: yeah, defvar might be better though. 01:32:25 kpreid: thanks a lot for your help. it helps me a lot. I appreciate :) 01:32:43 Balooga: first, macroexpand it, second, test it 01:33:47 (it certainly will not use svref on non-simple vectors) 01:33:57 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 01:36:09 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:36:19 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:19 Balooga: you can also try "for for across (the simple-vector vector)" 01:41:10 stassats: OK, thanks. 01:41:42 -!- antoni [n=antoni@171.pool85-53-18.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:42:05 -!- md` [n=user@85-135-245-206.adsl.slovanet.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:28 why don't you just declare the type of vector where it's bound? 01:43:07 pkhuong: And that would do the trick? 01:43:48 looking at the macroexpansion of ..across (the si.. it actually does that 01:44:30 (in some implementations, sure) 01:45:22 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:28 clhs does mention that "Some implementations might recognize a the special form in the vector" 01:45:31 clhs 6.1.2.1.5 01:45:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_abae.htm 01:45:57 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:46:05 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 01:48:04 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:50:00 mib_9gc9a4g5 [i=48df1de7@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-85311f8612bd3a0f] has joined #lisp 01:50:24 are you sure you haven't got a Village here? 01:50:33 Be seeing you! 01:50:47 -!- mns_ [n=user@c-76-119-251-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:50:57 mns_ [n=user@c-76-119-251-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:22 mib_9gc9a4g5: wrong window? 01:52:34 Oy, yes. what an embarassment. 01:53:17 Back to lisp. Does the name "T" mean anything to you? As a dialect of lisp? I am trying to trace it. 01:54:03 (although "The Prisoner" is a superior series in every way. 01:54:07 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-48-181-107.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:08 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 01:54:30 ) 01:54:51 mib_9gc9a4g5: it was a Scheme variant IIRC 01:55:30 mib_9gc9a4g5: 01:55:30 asking in #scheme will get you better answers 01:56:51 mib_9gc9a4g5: T was a scheme dialect developed at Yale CS department. 01:56:59 good night! 01:57:06 Riastradh: any progress in reviving? 01:57:07 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 01:57:46 rpg--thank you very, very much. How'd you track that down? 01:57:47 No. 01:58:06 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:58:08 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:55 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:00:31 Thanks for the leads. 02:00:36 -!- mib_9gc9a4g5 [i=48df1de7@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-85311f8612bd3a0f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 02:01:46 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:04:14 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:07:35 Where's a good place to hire someone to make a nice template with css? 02:07:48 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:08:03 kzar: there are lots of template selling sites out there. use google 02:08:19 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:28 Yea I don't want to buy a template though, I want to say here's the html with all the div's etc make it look nice 02:08:29 kzar: some of them have good templates 02:08:37 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:58 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:10:29 Having said that I bought one of those cheapo templates before and you know it did the job, just not really what I need this time 02:12:10 ExcelsisD [i=email@89.180.131.28] has joined #lisp 02:12:48 We've used them several times. Saves time and money. 02:13:41 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:16 wow, so the audio side of lispbuilder-sdl has apparently never been used, and doesn't actually work? shocking. :) 02:18:32 agemo [n=jovdmeer@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 02:19:31 on the bright side, the SDL audio interface is not so great anyway. 02:21:42 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:22:04 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-13-168.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:31 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:23:07 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-13-168.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:23:09 hefner: It works.... in Linux ;) 02:23:28 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.13] has joined #lisp 02:23:39 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 02:24:28 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 02:24:59 hefner: I have the basics of a lisp mixer for lispbuilder-sdl working now which will be cross-platform. 02:26:08 hefner: Unfortunately that is only a small part. The major functionality sdl_mixer brings to the table is the support for a lot of different audio formats. 02:26:48 I've never used any of these extra libraries, like sdl_mixer or sdl_gfx, and frankly consider them a threat to my manhood. 02:26:59 younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 02:27:54 *hefner* will someday be a crazy old man rambling on about the days of msdos, when men were men and you wrote everything yourself 02:28:03 ..even when you didn't have to. 02:28:04 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:28:35 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5ac802a9.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 02:28:50 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 02:29:50 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@164-61-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 02:31:28 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.171.34] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:53 -!- agemo [n=jovdmeer@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has left #lisp 02:32:14 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:46 hefner: Using your own sdl bindings then? 02:33:44 no, I've only used it from C recently (and cl-sdl a few years ago). But I'd use lispbuilder-sdl, because writing bindings doesn't interest me. 02:35:41 for what little ffi stuff I've done recently (simple non-CLX X11 stuff, libjpeg), I've written fairly thin wrappers in C that do just what I need, so that I only had to write FFI for a few structures and functions 02:35:42 O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 02:35:49 it feels like I'm saving effort, but it's hard to be certain 02:36:14 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 02:36:20 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 02:36:57 hefner: Once you start writing bindings, its easy to fall into the trap of continually polishing. So you probably are saving time, in a way. 02:37:30 Yes, for others. <-: 02:39:52 Balooga: that's what I'd expect (in my early dabblings with cmucl, some years ago, I wrote some crude SDL bindings, and realized how much time you could spend wrapping every obscure corner of a library and trying to give everything a nice lispy interface) 02:40:07 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:42:51 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:01 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-143.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:48:22 ok, bye all 02:48:25 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit ["Balooga has no reason"] 02:58:41 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:36 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:00:03 mulligan [n=user@e178025108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 03:00:31 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 03:01:57 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [] 03:06:30 O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 03:11:17 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:11:52 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:12:57 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:13:38 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:15:21 syamajal_ [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:29 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:16:43 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:18:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:37 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:18:58 Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 03:20:11 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:22:22 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:25:26 -!- syamajal_ [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:34:19 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:34:28 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:38:35 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:48 benny` [n=benny@i577A0E03.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:42:58 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0E03.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:49:53 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-142.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 03:51:29 -!- Gracenotes_away is now known as Gracenotes 03:54:28 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:00:26 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:16:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16:53 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 04:20:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:21 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.13] has joined #lisp 04:22:34 -!- ExcelsisD is now known as X-Scale 04:27:11 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:33:50 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.252.97.13] has joined #lisp 04:35:35 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@72-255-25-234.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:37:10 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:39:40 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:40:37 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:43:49 _8david` [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 04:45:14 -!- _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:46:16 netaustin [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:48:02 ManateeL` [n=user@222.212.142.13] has joined #lisp 04:48:17 -!- ManateeL` [n=user@222.212.142.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:52:37 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [] 04:55:05 -!- CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:55:39 CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-60-178.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:59:07 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [] 04:59:16 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:03:41 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.13] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:03:46 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:06:12 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:07:02 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:07:42 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:08:21 -!- benny` is now known as benny 05:09:03 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.13] has joined #lisp 05:11:53 -!- Gracenotes [n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:15:10 brianj_otter [n=brianj@wsip-24-234-224-152.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:50 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:21:32 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1EFDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:04 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1CD85.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:51 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:26 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 05:39:07 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:52 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:48:52 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-132-11.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:48:58 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-132-11.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:24 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:30 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 05:55:55 ExcelsisD [i=email@89-180-22-53.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 06:01:37 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:59 evening 06:04:51 antoni [n=antoni@250.pool85-53-8.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 06:12:08 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.131.28] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:12:14 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:13:39 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:18:36 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #lisp 06:18:41 there's ruby on rails, is there any equiv for lisp? 06:18:45 -!- ExcelsisD is now known as X-Scale 06:20:09 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.13] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:21:09 hml: look through http://cliki.net 06:27:40 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 06:37:05 patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:42 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 06:39:01 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@164-61-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 06:41:25 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:41:33 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:55 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:43:09 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.226.10] has joined #lisp 06:46:05 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:46:17 phadthai [i=mmondor@66.11.161.166] has joined #lisp 06:52:49 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 06:57:38 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E6C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:01:29 Good afternoon. 07:05:59 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@164-61-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 07:06:13 -!- antoni [n=antoni@250.pool85-53-8.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 07:06:56 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 07:07:56 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E6C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:02 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-131-93.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:12 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-224-211.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 07:08:52 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-25-176.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 07:10:04 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:11:55 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.13] has joined #lisp 07:14:22 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@164-61-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 07:20:14 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:56 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 07:23:29 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:24:03 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-24-16-246-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:32 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-16-246-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:26:09 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 07:28:20 -!- oklopol [n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:28:37 oklopol [n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 07:37:37 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-24-16-246-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:37:47 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-16-246-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:59 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:38:35 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-16-246-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:39:13 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-16-246-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:18 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:46:56 hi 07:47:55 Hello! 07:48:04 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:49:23 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 07:50:38 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:56:11 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:03:40 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 08:05:15 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:06:54 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 08:09:19 -!- omg911 [n=omg@CPE00402b407f68-CM0011aec50bd8.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 08:09:42 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:45 Hey all, I'm working my way through SICP; I've got a (somewhat embarrassing) question. I can't see why the linear iterative factorial process is not using the same amount of memory as the linear recursive factorial process 08:14:06 here's where I am http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html#%_toc_%_sec_1.2.1 08:14:47 twice as far to walk. 08:14:56 I understand figure 1.3, I just can't see how 1.4 is generated from the code that follows it 08:15:18 The recursive example they give needs to walk there and back, so it needs to remember the path. 08:16:01 Oh, and 1.4 doesn't because you're passing the product along 08:16:17 so it doesn't need to compute anything when it reaches the end 08:16:19 Yes, it just needs to know who to give the answer to. 08:16:33 You can think of it in terms of the number of continuations that need to be stored. 08:16:59 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:17:03 1+n vs. 1 08:17:09 Ah, that makes sense. The image is a bit misleading though; it would have been immediately apparent to me what was happening if instead of a straight column they had indented each line one more than the previous 08:17:35 That might have helped. 08:17:59 The only way I could see to get a straight column like that would be to not use recursion. 08:18:10 Well, I appreciate the help, thanks! 08:18:13 Well ... that's kind of what they're showing you. 08:18:24 Iteration is recursive. 08:18:30 But, which kind of recursive is it? 08:19:05 Ah, yes, I seem to remember my friend explaining that to me at some point in the past 08:19:27 Why do they teach people that iteration is different than recursion? 08:19:46 Because if they teach other opposite, then a lot of people get angry. 08:19:47 Perhaps that's more philosophical 08:20:17 A lot of people going into CS have taught themselves programming, and have half-learned a lot of things that they think they understand. 08:20:31 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 08:20:36 Tell them that their while loop is recursive and what kind of reaction can you expect? 08:20:48 Clarity of thought 08:20:57 unification of concepts 08:21:03 No, they'll just scream at you until they are blue in the face. 08:21:06 -!- brianj_otter [n=brianj@wsip-24-234-224-152.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [] 08:21:11 Irrational people, maybe 08:21:19 Everyone is irrational. 08:21:36 not true, some are real 08:21:40 Anyhow, it's easier to work from what people believe to what they don't believe than the converse. 08:21:42 heh 08:21:42 others are integers 08:22:21 Zhivago: I'd rather not get into a political debate, but I think you've just hit on what's wrong with a lot of aspects of society 08:22:49 Well, that's what happens when you hire a contractor to design the world and people in 6000 years. 08:23:00 Either way, Back to the book 08:23:33 -!- mns_ [n=user@c-76-119-251-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:27:18 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:28:09 It's like unification in physics. At one level, the concepts are unified, at another lower level, they're clearly different. 08:28:44 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 08:30:40 H4ns: Did you have time to check the patch I posted to flexi-streams-devel yesterday? 08:35:24 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:37:51 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:38:38 athos [n=philipp@p54B8683B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:17 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:43:22 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 08:46:17 lenst [n=user@90-229-133-85-no52.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:55:08 fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.119.62] has joined #lisp 08:55:08 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:56:39 bpalmer [n=user@unaffiliated/bpalmer] has joined #lisp 08:57:15 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D8D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:11 -!- lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:02:30 lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:35 lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:07:34 robyonrails [n=roby@82.49.206.234] has joined #lisp 09:11:18 -!- ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:11:37 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:39 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:18:27 trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-255-034.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:14 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:23 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:27:28 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.13] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:37:38 archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 09:38:49 user_ [n=user@p54926896.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:09 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.226.10] has quit ["Biting the bullet since 1987"] 09:42:36 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.226.10] has joined #lisp 09:43:29 minion: tell puddingpimp Take a look at CLUE (www.cliki.net/CLUE). Does that connect to the library you preferred to use? (The same as xfontsel uses) I couldn't find any screenshots about it. 09:43:30 puddingpimp: what other connections do you see? 09:44:59 minion: memo for puddingpimp: Take a look at CLUE (www.cliki.net/CLUE). Does that connect to the library you preferred to use? (The same as xfontsel uses) I couldn't find any screenshots about it. 09:44:59 Remembered. I'll tell puddingpimp when he/she/it next speaks. 09:45:26 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 09:46:26 #+sb-assembling what is it used for ? 09:46:55 schmx [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:48:24 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-224-211.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:49:30 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 09:56:10 lhz: Search for SB-ASSEMBLING in http://cl-debian.alioth.debian.org/repository/rvb/sbcl-sarge/base-target-features.lisp-expr 09:56:19 g'day 09:57:04 vy: doesn't tell what it is used for. 09:57:12 madnificT [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:57:17 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:58:48 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:49 lhz: Here is another one http://cl-debian.alioth.debian.org/repository/rvb/sbcl-sarge/src/assembly/x86/assem-rtns.lisp 10:00:10 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:00:12 -!- schmx is now known as schme 10:00:12 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@207.pool85-49-175.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:00:13 lhz: Did you search SBCL source tree? 10:00:51 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 10:01:23 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:01:39 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 10:02:07 vy: yes.. it seems src/assembly/assemfile.lisp:assemble-file sets it. And that function is only used during make-host-2.lisp. Correct ? 10:03:16 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:21 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-143.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:03:50 lhz: Yup. 10:05:40 why would we hide functions from the cross-compiler ? 10:10:01 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:12:34 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp272.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:15:55 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:16:11 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:18:18 eaumontab [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:18:20 -!- eaumontab [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:19:57 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:15 -!- younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 10:22:44 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:27:13 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:27:19 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:27:48 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@207.pool85-49-175.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:32:54 -!- joachifm is now known as joachifm_ 10:33:06 -!- joachifm_ [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp272.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:33:28 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp272.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:40:32 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.119.62] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:45:04 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:15 ExcelsisD [i=email@89.180.239.51] has joined #lisp 10:48:01 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B8683B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 10:48:37 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 10:50:04 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:51:27 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:52:35 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89-180-22-53.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:02:09 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:05:30 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:55 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:07:02 -!- user_ [n=user@p54926896.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:08:16 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:08:29 Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:09:16 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.158.129] has left #lisp 11:09:18 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:32 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 11:14:53 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb353d.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 11:15:51 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:17:23 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 11:17:51 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.252.97.13] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:22:09 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:22:09 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:22:54 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:24:38 schmx [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:24:38 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:32:12 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 11:32:24 fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.112.170] has joined #lisp 11:32:35 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-166.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 11:33:59 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 11:40:01 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:35 phromo [i=phromo@c-e065e455.015-359-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:43:13 hernia [n=chatzill@189.120.162.44] has joined #lisp 11:43:36 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:48:10 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-91-58.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 11:48:12 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 11:50:11 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:51:08 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0E03.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:53:11 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:54:44 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 11:55:15 -!- schmx [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:56:42 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:57:26 user_ [n=user@p54923E18.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:39 how can I change the curent working directory in lispworks? 12:00:41 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.239.51] has joined #lisp 12:01:10 mulligan` [n=user@e178025108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:01:18 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:01:24 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.13] has joined #lisp 12:01:24 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2D8D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:07 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:08 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-115-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:02:32 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [] 12:03:01 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-166.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- ExcelsisD [i=email@89.180.239.51] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D8D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- lenst [n=user@90-229-133-85-no52.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1EFDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178025108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-131-217.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633759.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- dfox__ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- lasts [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host166.201-253-15.telecom.net.ar] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- df_aldur [n=df@aldur.torak.ewdc.nl.bowerham.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- Balooga_ [n=luke@65.111.175.229] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:01 -!- housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:03:38 lenst` [n=user@90-229-133-85-no52.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-166.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 ExcelsisD [i=email@89.180.239.51] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1EFDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-131-217.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633759.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 dfox__ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 lasts [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 Tordek [n=tordek@host166.201-253-15.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 df_aldur [n=df@aldur.torak.ewdc.nl.bowerham.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 Balooga_ [n=luke@65.111.175.229] has joined #lisp 12:03:38 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:04:26 -!- ExcelsisD [i=email@89.180.239.51] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 12:05:10 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.13] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:07:14 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-207-112-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:08:08 benny [n=benny@i577A15B9.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:09:26 -!- trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-255-034.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:09:34 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-220-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:41 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:59 hola 12:20:13 josemanuel [n=josemanu@44.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:25:59 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483EC93.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:45 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 12:31:18 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:31:38 younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 12:31:50 seelenquell: for Lisp code it's *default-pathname-defaults* 12:33:27 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:33:34 thank you 12:36:53 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:38:03 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:38:48 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.112.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:39:31 Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-64068.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:39:54 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@72-255-25-234.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:45 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.64.68] has joined #lisp 12:45:00 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 12:47:43 decafbad1 [n=mehmet@88.232.71.178] has joined #lisp 12:48:25 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.64.68] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:48:43 -!- decafbad1 is now known as decafbad 12:52:22 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@44.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:53:46 josemanuel [n=josemanu@44.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:54:20 seelenquell: note that *default-pathname-defaults* has nothing in common with posix current working directory. 12:54:51 seelenquell: setting it only impacts lisp functions, not subshells or posix functions you could call thru FFI or implementation dependant API. 12:55:06 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:41 Have a look at http://darcs.informatimago.com/public/common-lisp/browser.lisp to see how you could define posix like functions to navigate the directory tree, with a hook to call the implementation dependant function to keep the posix current working directory synchronized. 12:58:57 pjb: i get 404 12:58:59 -!- drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has quit ["\(^^) LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL! "\(^^)""] 12:59:51 http://darcs.informatimago.com/public/lisp/common-lisp/browser.lisp i guess? 13:01:41 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:02:20 foobar__ [n=_prip@host244-124-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:02:39 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host65-124-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:03:32 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:06:30 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 13:06:42 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:07:11 Reaver_11 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:08:19 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 13:09:00 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.13] has joined #lisp 13:16:03 -!- hernia [n=chatzill@189.120.162.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:16:11 -!- _8david` [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:16:26 -!- user_ [n=user@p54923E18.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:36 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:20:00 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 13:22:47 netaustin [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:24:15 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:28:18 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has joined #lisp 13:30:58 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:50 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:35:40 O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 13:41:46 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 13:42:20 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.13] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:45:00 TimoT [n=ttossava@cs167168.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:45:27 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 13:46:45 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:48:13 josemanuel_ [n=josemanu@98.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:48:37 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@44.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:44 antoni [n=antoni@54.pool85-53-29.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 13:49:37 -!- TimoT [n=ttossava@cs167168.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:49:41 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:05 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb545f.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:58:45 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:33 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 14:06:47 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 14:07:15 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:07:47 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:18 c|mell [n=cmell@p6705fb.tkyoea03.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:12:43 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb353d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:13:11 O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 14:14:18 jewel: how fit for use is your OMeta in CL? 14:15:34 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:07 I'm currently using it for another project, so it works, but it probably still needs some polishing for someone else to use it 14:16:30 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:17:01 Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:18:25 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:11 jewel: your post says "Memoization of previous parse results" is not implemented; does that mean it is not a packrat system, as I have heard OMeta is? 14:21:18 -!- madnificT [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:22:17 That post is about an older version, I haven't posted about the new one 14:22:21 http://subvert-the-dominant-paradigm.net/repos/hgwebdir.cgi/ometa2/ 14:22:21 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:22:42 In this one (let's call it "ometa2") I have implemented memoization 14:23:20 ah 14:23:46 (the memoization is limited to certain rule applications, I guess in other implementations, like haskell/pappy, it might be more complete) 14:24:15 I'm not the packrat expert, so I can't tell whether that's sufficient for our application... 14:24:26 -!- CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:24:52 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 14:25:36 I'm not much of an expert either, but I am able to parse this grammar (which is quite complex) 14:25:40 http://subvert-the-dominant-paradigm.net/repos/hgwebdir.cgi/bootstrap/file/ffbce910c0cd/genesis/church/church2.g 14:26:02 for inputs of more than a thousand lines comfortably 14:26:28 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0EC36.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:37 jewel: so what about your cl-peg? what distinguishes them? 14:28:39 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@72-255-25-234.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:51 cl-peg basically "interprets" the grammar rules by walking a tree of CLOS objects that represent them 14:29:07 ometa generates lisp code that implements the parser 14:29:07 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.91.23] has joined #lisp 14:29:29 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.91.23] has left #lisp 14:30:22 cl-peg returns a parse tree of objects that represent the success of each rule 14:30:29 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483EC93.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:30:45 ometa is different in that you control the parse output from within the grammar 14:30:56 CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:31:06 I see 14:31:27 Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 14:32:24 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E6C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:32:32 Reaver_12 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:33:27 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:37:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:38:47 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:39:39 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:02 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-98.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:40:09 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 14:41:31 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:33 -!- Reaver_11 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:49:22 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [] 14:49:49 -!- Reaver_12 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:55:24 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:58:51 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 15:00:10 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:04:03 http://common-lisp.net/projects/bytemap/ -- access densely packed uncompressed binary numeric data 15:04:13 new project with cffi mmap wrapper 15:04:42 netaustin [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:20 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:14:01 -!- lenst` [n=user@90-229-133-85-no52.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:16:14 -!- josemanuel_ [n=josemanu@98.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 15:16:46 c|mell: Don't do #.`(.... compute expansion ...) 15:16:50 c|mell: Use MACROLET instead 15:17:31 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EC93.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:41 hmm thought there was a reason for my madness 15:17:43 maybe not 15:18:20 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 15:19:25 c|mell: the often-seen idiom is (macrolet ((def (op) `(....))) (def +) (def -) ...), bonus point if you actually use a descriptive name instead of simply DEF or FROB 15:21:02 my way is shorter ;) 15:21:14 minion: memo for luis: Could you please add links to babel and trivial-features to the cffi / babel websites? 15:21:15 Remembered. I'll tell luis when he/she/it next speaks. 15:21:15 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:21:25 c|mell: And broken 15:21:25 actually there is probably too much #. in there 15:21:43 why is it broken? 15:22:21 what is the purpose for #. on constants? 15:24:14 you are not allowed to have a type like (integer 0 +constant+) right? 15:24:20 i am not sure? 15:25:34 you need to evaluate it, now i see 15:26:18 it is pretty ugly 15:26:37 tcr, why is it broken? 15:26:43 you can use just `(integer 0 ,+users+) 15:27:02 i some places you do... 15:27:34 really? 15:27:39 where? 15:28:02 defstruct netflix... :element-type `(integer 0 ,+users+) 15:28:14 '(integer 2 42) is not a type 15:28:46 when you make an array the element-type argument is evaluated 15:29:02 stassats`: try (case +const+ ...) and you will see 15:29:07 in that case you can pass '(integer 2 42) 15:29:25 younder: see what? 15:30:01 c|mell: #. is evaluated upon READ; it's not only the compiler which may READ files (for example Slime does so too for M-.) 15:30:38 matley [n=matley@83.225.47.9] has joined #lisp 15:30:38 c|mell: ah, defstruct doesn't evaluate? /me doesn't use defstruct much 15:31:07 stassats`: The case macro expands, but the constant doesn't. so it cant't see the value only the symbol 15:31:52 tcr, actually that's a good point. I didn't think of that, thanks 15:31:54 younder: i don't understand, why do you need case on constants? 15:32:18 c|mell: in fact, try to M-. on make-mmap-ref, and you'll see that Slime won't put you to the right toplevel form. 15:32:29 definitely true 15:32:33 it is annoying 15:32:42 if i use macrolet, then it will? 15:32:47 stassats`: case is a operation, like switch in C 15:33:02 ferada [n=ferada@e179239196.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:33:02 younder: i thought it is a macro 15:33:06 c|mell: Yes, it will. 15:33:57 stassats`: Most of Lisp is either functions or macroes 15:34:10 younder: why are you telling me that? 15:34:14 stassats`: for that matter cond is a macro 15:34:28 c|mell: You can use #. for (integer 0 #.+some-constant+), that is if that's not within a macro expansion, in which case you can just use ,+constant+ 15:34:45 netaustin [n=austinsm@69.183.199.198] has joined #lisp 15:35:44 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 15:35:52 stassats`: Because to understand why some operations don't work. like +const+ instead of #.+const+ you may have to expand the expression to see what is really going on 15:36:08 c|mell: You code's not really idiomatic on lot of places. I don't have the time to go through it. Perhaps someone else will. 15:36:13 stassats`: with macroexpand 15:36:24 younder: i perfectly understand that 15:36:56 tcr, i very deficient in idioms as i have never read any lisp, thanks for your advice 15:37:04 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EC93.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:37:07 i just didn't understand that defstruct doesn't evaluate :type parameter 15:37:24 stassats`: I wonder why you would think it does 15:37:38 dto: Ping? 15:37:50 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 15:38:08 tcr: i even didn't think, i've used structures once or twice 15:38:44 stassats`: Types are never evaluated, except for typep and subtypep. 15:38:47 nyef: p0ng! 15:39:08 *tcr* afk 15:39:08 stassats`: defstuct is a macro. and macro's unilike functions don't evaluate their parameters 15:39:23 tcr: :element-type in make-array? 15:39:28 dto: I see some interesting emacs screenshots for emacs in your rlx pages. Do you do your level editing in emacs? 15:39:46 user_ [n=user@p54925303.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:49 stassats`: the substitute the arguments in literally 15:40:12 younder: can you stop, please? 15:41:20 nyef: there was a prototype level editor based on a library of mine, cell-mode. it's being reworked a bit because i revised cell-mode and am still in the process of rewriting it. 15:41:39 Ah, okay, so that's why there's no obvious source available for it. 15:41:53 nyef: if i can have it ready for my presentation on the 26th it'll be in the video, but I have lots of other stuff that I want to be ready first :) 15:42:10 nyef: yeah, sorry :( i never made a proper release and didn't use github at the time 15:42:19 Fair enough. I'm looking forward to the 26th, and hope to be there. 15:42:33 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:42:58 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:24 stassats`: you call a function with the argument (+ 1 2) it sends 3 to the function. If you call a macro with (+ 1 2) it sends (+ 1 2) 15:43:30 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:43:39 paul__ [n=paul@b80128.upc-b.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 15:44:05 nyef: do you live near boston? 15:44:05 again, why are you telling me that? 15:44:19 stassats`: so a function get's the value us a +const+ but the macro get's the symbol +const+ 15:44:59 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 15:45:33 stassats`: if you use the #.+const+ it gets expanded before the macro get's expanded so you get the desired result 15:45:48 dto: It's about an hour and a half drive, maybe a touch more, to get to Alewife, and then I usually just take the T in. 15:45:52 younder: maybe 15:46:04 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:46:05 younder: i appreciate your willingness to help me, but save your time, don't explain me what i already know 15:46:05 stassats`: so calling a macro with #.(+ 1 2) sends 3 15:46:06 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.47.9] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:46:26 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:46:27 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:46:36 maybe 15:46:37 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 15:46:53 -!- HET3 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 15:47:13 younder: I am sure stassats` is well aware of these things. 15:47:17 I was rather surprised to realize that some old favorite games were roguelikes. 15:47:39 Ultima 1-5, for example, though I'd hardly count -all- of them as roguelike. 15:47:46 Err... 15:48:00 Hardly count all of them as -old favorites-, not as roguelikes. 15:48:00 tcr, i've fixed one #.` to macrolet and pushed it 15:48:11 And 2400AD, definately an old favorite. 15:48:18 nyef: that's cool. i hope you can come by! i'm inviting a few friends as well 15:48:26 hi schme 15:48:38 nyef: i loved u6 and u7 15:48:42 Hello dto, man! 15:49:08 :) 15:49:46 hefner has a link on his blog to some old Ultima maps. It brought back memories. 15:50:21 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [] 15:52:59 I don't remember enough about u6 or u7 to figure out if they were particularly roguelike or not. 15:53:23 u6 was i'd say. but with a simpler interface (fewer verbs, "use" instead of "quaff, zap, read..." 15:53:30 -!- abend [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:53:31 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:53:53 abend [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:35 nyef: so by rougelike you mean an advanture game? 15:54:51 younder: It has more to do with the command set and interaction style. 15:55:51 flip flop flip flop 15:55:51 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:55:59 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2D8D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:56:26 Zork, for example, is classified as an "adventure" game, but is not a roguelike. 15:56:51 (The Legend of Zelda is also considered to be an "adventure" game, and nobody would mistake it for Zork or a roguelike.) 15:56:57 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C702.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:28 I would also hesitate to describe the NES port of Ultima III as "roguelike". 15:58:32 nyef: The Flash to C Compiler can compile a NES emulator to the FlashVM and you can play TLoZ in your browser! 15:58:45 I mean the C to Flash Compiler 15:59:22 tcr: Umm... Sure, but I should still have my Zelda cart somewhere. 16:02:22 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:02:44 user___ [n=user@p54927FB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:47 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:03:19 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:03:20 lo 16:03:41 nyef: monkey island is a 'classic' adventure game! 16:03:48 it's 'the' one :D 16:03:59 Right, then there's the other classical "adventure" format. 16:04:05 it's _a_ point and click adventure 16:04:17 is there a distinction? 16:04:23 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:27 Which spawned such systems as AGI, SCI, SCUMM, etc. 16:05:13 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:05:42 i used to love adventure gmaes :D 16:05:46 monkey island classic my arse. 16:05:55 nyef: we have different ideas of 'classic' 16:06:06 back in my day, we used to call those "graphics adventure games" (: 16:06:20 archangelpetro: I suggest you go to amazon or wherever and order the infocom collection. 16:06:29 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.181.91.98] has joined #lisp 16:06:44 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:07:08 I propose to skip infocom at first and get good interactive fiction from this century (: 16:07:24 Oh, come on. AMFV was good! 16:07:28 lol 16:07:30 There is such a thing? 16:07:47 (good interactive fiction from this century I mean) 16:07:49 schme: yes, lots. there are annual competitions, and the winners are generally really good 16:08:04 hmm.. maybe reddit can be seen as "interactive fiction from this century" 16:08:05 srsly 16:08:05 and the runners-up tend to be, as well 16:08:06 schme: Sure. Varicella was excellent, for example. And almost anything by Emily Short. 16:08:14 antifuchs: That's very cool. I will google around for that. :) 16:08:27 also, I went digging in the attic and found my CP/M copy of hitchhik 16:08:29 anyway, we seem to have woken the dragon. I should think of something lispy to say 16:08:29 (Maybe I should dust off and fix up Pretzil?) 16:08:46 lol 16:08:50 antifuchs: It kinda relates to casting spels I guess :) 16:08:52 classic adventures.. 16:08:55 theyre called books :D 16:09:01 ;) 16:09:03 interactive fiction, man! 16:09:14 it's still the digital form of those adventure books 16:09:26 'turn to page 49 if you want to kick the goblin's arse' 16:09:37 there is such a thing? 16:09:40 yes 16:09:42 yea 16:09:43 they rocked 16:09:49 I see. 16:09:50 and it's nothing like IF 16:09:52 Oh, yes. There most certainly was such a thing. 16:10:11 hi antifuchs 16:10:15 well, somewhat like zork and adventure 16:10:17 hi HET2 (: 16:10:22 The classic series there was "Choose Your Own Adventure", but there were certainly better products out there. 16:10:36 aargh.. 16:10:50 Ok, you guys are too distracting. I'm moving you to a workspace I can't see. Sorry :( 16:11:00 schme: Happy hacking, then. 16:11:08 thanks (: 16:11:09 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.239.51] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:11:22 I'm particularly fond of Edward Gorey's `choose your own adventure' story. 16:12:06 -!- user___ [n=user@p54927FB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:12:46 Come to think of it, I haven't seen a CYOA book in years. 16:13:07 I've forgotten what it's called, though, and my Gorey books are all a hundred miles distant. 16:13:54 Hvve any of you playes SCHIZM? 16:14:12 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:32 -!- user_ [n=user@p54925303.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:41 *nyef* wonders how much work would be involved in porting Pretzil to run directly on CLX without McCLIM... 16:15:14 CLX is pretty low level 16:16:26 so rather a lot I would think. I mean it is just a layer on XLIB 16:16:50 Umm... No, it is -not- "just a layer on XLIB". 16:17:00 why are you arguing matters of fact with younder? 16:17:01 It can be implemented that way. 16:17:11 Good question. 16:17:31 CAPI was origionally written on top of CLX 16:18:41 And CLX was originally implemented on top of LispM networking functions. So what? 16:19:46 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 16:20:30 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.185.31] has joined #lisp 16:20:46 -!- Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [] 16:21:40 -!- paul__ [n=paul@b80128.upc-b.chello.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:23:58 For the record I primarely use LispWorks under Windows 16:24:29 If in Krystof's mind that makes me retarded, fine 16:26:07 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:26:43 Grilinctus [n=Aankhen@122.163.226.10] has joined #lisp 16:27:48 Heh. I'm looking at the source for pretzil and I'm finding that it's amazing what three years of further experience does to my perspective. 16:29:05 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.226.10] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:29:27 -!- Grilinctus is now known as Aankhen`` 16:29:32 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.226.10] has quit [Client Quit] 16:30:03 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.226.10] has joined #lisp 16:36:38 What is the default test function for assoc? The HS doesn't mention it (or I don't know how to read it). 16:36:53 eql 16:37:00 it mentions it in OAOO place 16:37:05 z0d: Per CLHS, the default test function wherever a default test function is not mentioned, is EQL. 16:37:25 And I either have one too many or one too few commas in there. 16:37:39 Thanks. 16:39:14 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-21-82-64-70-92.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:40:13 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:58 |stern| [n=seelenqu@tmo-096-195.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:24 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-55-82-255-159-170.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:48 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:43:06 _stern_ [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-113.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 16:43:32 -!- younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 16:53:58 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:56:48 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:56:54 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:57:18 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 16:57:19 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:57:30 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-185.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:19 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 17:00:49 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:05 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@tmo-096-195.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:22 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-044-158.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:58 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-131-93.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:05:23 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:14 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@dhcp-18-190-47-61.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:16:54 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.185.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:17:13 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:19:28 Did I say three years? Clearly, I can't do math in my head anymore. It's been nearly four years. 17:21:19 We forgive you! 17:22:27 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:51 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178025108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 17:23:10 -!- _stern_ [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-113.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:06 younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 17:27:11 -!- wol [n=wol@c-24-4-220-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:29:01 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-223.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:30:14 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:32:11 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0EC36.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 17:33:15 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:35:34 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:36:01 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 17:36:48 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:38:37 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0EC36.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:06 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-176.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:12 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 17:43:55 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:44:14 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-137-240.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 17:46:08 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@dhcp-18-111-61-198.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:46:11 josemanuel [n=josemanu@98.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:48:51 matley [n=matley@83.225.47.9] has joined #lisp 17:49:03 gol [n=goloo@host207-134-dynamic.27-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:52:23 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 17:53:17 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:53:32 -!- gol [n=goloo@host207-134-dynamic.27-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:53:43 gol [n=goloo@host207-134-dynamic.27-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:56:21 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@98.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 17:56:40 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@dhcp-18-190-47-61.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:58:03 l_n [n=Not@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 17:58:29 finis [n=mkr@dh207-79-134.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 17:59:09 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp272.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:59:19 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@69.183.199.198] has quit [] 17:59:22 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:02:40 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb545f.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:07:08 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 18:12:17 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:14:51 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:50 user___ [n=user@p54924ED1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:38 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:52 good aftermorning 18:20:29 Hi. 18:21:31 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:21:37 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.234.93] has joined #lisp 18:22:10 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 18:22:47 fwiw, i have been tasked to hire a web developer and php guy for a friend's firm, and the results for two different ad posts have been interesting 18:23:31 i had more success with the phony "join a startup for equity" ad than the actual paid hire one 18:24:13 it's like competent people are ignoring a full time job in favor of a "gig". really weird. 18:24:15 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:26:07 phony job ads, sounds really classy! 18:26:08 luis, memo from tcr: Could you please add links to babel and trivial-features to the cffi / babel websites? 18:26:51 luis: phony in the sense that there is nothing "startup" about it. it's a full time job. so i lied about the details, bfd. 18:27:29 -!- gilberth [n=gilbert@d014059.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:14 md` [n=user@213-151-238-36.icss.sk] has joined #lisp 18:32:01 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 18:32:35 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 18:37:54 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:18 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:39:00 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:40:03 tcr: there's a link to those in the Installation chapter, which is linked from the main page. 18:43:13 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.41.90] has joined #lisp 18:43:42 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@dhcp-18-111-61-198.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:49 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:53 Does anyone know if there is a lisp for Plan 9? 18:46:46 http://www.cliki.net/LISP in PLAN 9 18:47:07 mogunus: As far as I know, no CL implementation works there. ECL might be easiest to port 18:47:31 though do not expect to much enthusiasm from a big part of community :P 18:47:41 ? 18:48:14 Plan 9 seems to be a pretty nice OS. Way nicer than linux, anyway. 18:48:20 there was a thread about it few weeks ago on 9fans 18:48:51 Ah, nice, I'll look into that. 18:49:05 -!- finis [n=mkr@dh207-79-134.xnet.hr] has quit ["..."] 18:49:06 just remember that it's not unix 18:49:16 And thank god for that? 18:49:43 heh 18:50:11 well, a lot of calls to libraries would have to be reworked :) 18:50:20 -!- aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-12-235.acanac.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:50:56 Yeah... I feel like it might be worth it though. 18:51:17 I've been reading up on plan 9, and the way that distributed computing just sort of falls out of the design looks pretty fantastic. 18:51:36 Out of curiosity, how is it "way nicer than linux" ? 18:51:50 (I don't remember it that way, but what do I know) 18:51:51 schme: In the sense that interfaces are less crazy 18:52:01 and by interfaces I mean APIs 18:52:05 I see. 18:52:12 Network programming is radically awesome. 18:52:37 Everything can export it's own little generated filesystem hierarchy, transparantly over a network. 18:52:41 So it's more a "way nicer than unix" ? 18:53:00 Yes, way nicer than unix would be more accurate. Sorry. 18:53:02 Yes, I am aware of this. But are not that ported to linux too? 18:53:14 schme: aka "Unix is dead an starts to smell bad". has been said by Unix creators ~1990 18:53:30 ah yes. 18:54:14 The userland has been ported, but the underlying architecture stuff (transparantly sharing CPU's) isn't in the ports. (I don't think, I just started figuring this out) 18:54:18 schme: Can't really "port" it. Linux is and will be an Unix-like. And the current direction seem to be going rather towards Windows, with all those weird HAL and *Kits 18:54:42 hi, any way to have sbcl/asdf-install always SKIP-GPG-CHECK ? 18:54:49 Anyway... Time to eat. 18:55:04 p_l: ? 18:55:07 p_l: Thanks for the info. I'll dig into the 9fans discussion 18:55:13 Isn't HAL just some KDE or GNOME thing? 18:55:19 felix^^ [n=fgeller@dslb-092-078-098-009.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:50 hmmm maybe not. 18:55:58 schme: Also X.Org requirement ... 18:56:32 It seems HAL requires dbus 18:56:32 hehe 18:56:33 but, linux doesn't require xorg 18:56:34 or rather, if you don't have it running and don't modify xorg.conf after upgrade to latest version, be happy without input system 18:56:40 I assure you I run xorg without dbus 18:56:44 stassats: Yeah 18:57:00 schme: Me too, after disabling the whole new input system and reverting to old one :) 18:57:14 I'm just saying that I was not so impressed with plan9 as a desktop OS, so I was curious on how it was "much better" 18:57:20 It seems IBM are having fun with it though. 18:57:29 it isn't still 18:57:30 schme: Read up on Plan B 18:57:58 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:58:06 hi, could you point me to a good online api? (e.g. where i could look up what @ does?) 18:58:20 p_l: Just give me the download url, dawg! 18:58:24 clhs ,@ 18:58:24 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for ,@. 18:58:29 clhs @ 18:58:29 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for @. 18:58:38 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:43 clhs , 18:58:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dg.htm 18:58:52 Ya seems to be the same aim. distributed environment, can't see the win for desktop or laptop :) 18:58:56 schme: lol. Sorry, I don't have one. Use google, Plan B is discontinued, they are currently working on next gen 18:59:06 ok. 18:59:25 schme: Distributed environment targeted at end users :) 18:59:54 end users.. is such a weird term. 19:00:08 Well I guess Icould bitch about how linux is not at all going towards windows. 19:00:08 heh. 19:00:19 I happened to install kde just the other day. That was a funny one. 19:00:24 netaustin [n=austinsm@65.217.157.122] has joined #lisp 19:00:38 also did horrors for latency ;) 19:00:39 schme: More like Ubanto etc. are going toward it. I sometimes wish to go back a few years, when everything worked simly 19:00:53 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-124-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 19:00:56 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-096-244.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:16 -!- X-Scale2 [i=email@89.181.91.98] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:02:03 p_l: If newer x.org requires HAL, how on earth will they keep it running on netbsd and friends? 19:02:12 or maybe HAL and dbus builds fine there too 19:02:17 Oh I guess it must, they also have KDE 19:02:18 nevermind :) 19:02:43 p_l: Well i'd love to go back to 94, before the internet went bad. But no time machine available :( 19:03:00 hmmm.. 19:03:04 I think I will hack some lisp :) 19:03:23 I cant find any lisp + plan9 stuff.. maybe clisp is easy portable? 19:03:28 Well, I don't take it lightly when after an update the whole input system is not working, cause it won't pick the devices I set in config 19:03:36 My first bet would be ECL 19:04:02 especially since it has incremental allocation (or at least had) 19:04:31 It seems strange though.. That xorg should require HAL. 19:05:02 I updated just the other day, no such issues. I guess it's not fresh enough .) 19:05:05 schme: It all started with Xft2... 19:05:48 X.Org server 1.5 requires HAL to recognize input devices 19:05:51 hmmm.. 19:06:09 othwerwise no mouse, no keyboard etc. 19:06:15 sbahra_ [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:18 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:06:20 how does one check the version here? :) 19:06:30 X -version 19:06:47 aha. 19:06:49 Option "AutoAddDevices" "False" <--- this in ServerFlags section reverts it to normality 19:06:52 I guess no 1.5 in mah debian. 19:06:55 1.4.2 19:07:08 1.5 in experimental 19:07:08 p_l: thanks. I'll remember that for next upgrade :) 19:07:17 aha. 19:07:28 I stopped pulling shit from experimental after I gave up on KDE. 19:07:38 doesn't startx for me, though 19:07:43 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-115-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:08:16 That was such a strange thing with KDE.. speaking of going towards windows. I first installed 3.5, and tried to configure shortcuts. I fire up the GUI to configure thins. Hit Meta+O 19:08:31 and it says "if you wanna use o you must use it together with Shift, Alt or Win" 19:08:32 !!! 19:08:37 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-68-48-181-107.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:08:44 It turns out "Win" is KDE speak for "Super" 19:09:01 rational being that there is a Windows logo on the key. 19:09:06 ... let me guess, they called "Hyper" Menu? :D 19:09:12 Dunno. 19:09:32 I guess things gets messed up if one puts super somewhere else too. 19:09:34 rational is that more people will understand what "Win" is 19:09:41 Well it's bullshit though. 19:09:47 I didn't understand what Win was :P 19:10:02 *p_l* wants mimicking windows as _optional_ behaviour 19:10:16 It is optional though .) 19:10:25 schme: you are in the minority 19:10:27 aptitude remove kde ;) 19:10:34 even if win7 is quite good :) 19:10:41 stassats: of course. As all unix people are. :) 19:10:43 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:11:11 But it just seems natural to me that an X wm uses X terminology. Dunno :) 19:11:33 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:35 and emacs uses their terminology, terminology hell 19:11:47 indeed! 19:11:54 "buffer" that's a great word of many uses. :) 19:12:16 clim has another terminology 19:13:23 still atleast mcclim on linux does not rename modifiers ;) 19:13:52 schme: Cause X modifiers are the same as Symbolics ones? 19:13:54 Other than that the kde4.2 was very impressive. 19:13:55 :P 19:14:18 p_l: Well I dunno. I suspect that if it was running on windows there would be a keysym like :win hidden away down there. 19:14:20 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:31 or whatever the alternative to xev on windows calls that modifier. 19:14:37 schme: on vanilla Emacs there's none 19:14:45 ah 19:14:56 At least I don't know of one 19:15:12 otoh, Visual Studio has a set of Emacs keybindings :) 19:15:30 I hear great things about that there visual studio. 19:15:56 Maybe one should buy a new computer and buy that there windows to try it out. 19:16:06 Get into that F#.NET stuff. 19:16:30 schme: Wait for Windows 7 or get Windows Server 19:16:47 at worst, Vista Ultimate x64 + SFU 19:16:51 ok.. why though? 19:17:30 schme: stability and performace. Windows 2k8 beats Vista hands down, 7 seems snappier than some modern linux distros 19:17:34 *schme* googles sfu 19:17:45 Services for Unix 19:17:52 ok.. 19:17:58 nowadays called SUA, Services for Unix Applications 19:17:59 what do I need that for though? I just wanna run visual studio :) 19:18:24 Just so that you won't install cygwin when you decide you need POSIX tools and shell :P 19:18:33 or when you find that you'd like to use GCC :P 19:18:43 ech. 19:18:46 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 19:18:49 I'lljust walk over to the regular computer. 19:19:04 anyway, Windows 7 takes half the space of Vista 19:19:10 I figured I'd just ssh over to it. There must be some ssh -X thing for windows too. 19:19:25 I mean some alternative to it, so the visual studio thing pops up here on my screen. 19:19:40 You can use RDP for access 19:19:53 hmmm.. 19:19:58 as well as ssh and telnet, but that doesn't support GUI :) 19:20:05 VNC is also an option 19:20:07 too bad. 19:21:31 hey that vista 64 ultimate was not so expensive. 19:21:44 for me, Vista Ultimate is 40 GBP ^^; 19:21:52 Maybe when I buy a new desktop machine to replace it. 19:22:03 but win 2k8 is still somewhere around 500 pounds... 19:22:12 (this one is killing me with the waiting :( ) 19:22:14 ok. 19:22:18 that's not so bad. 19:22:33 a good benefit with windows is that I could run some software and hardware I can't use now. 19:22:36 :) 19:22:57 hrrm. 19:23:04 still seems a bit much just to try visual studio. 19:23:05 :P 19:23:45 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:24:06 sctb [n=sctb@adsl-71-135-98-155.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:40 Is it possible to replace the windows wm ? 19:24:55 I've always wondered. 19:25:21 schme: On NT <6, yes, I dunno about 6.x and future 19:26:18 kk 19:26:19 schme: yes, you can replace the windows shell 19:26:37 TweakUI will let you do that 19:27:03 fusss: That's not quite the same as the WM 19:28:00 sctb: teakUI and the power toys + stuff from here will let him what he wants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_shell_replacement 19:28:23 sctb: in this case it's practically the same 19:28:36 ok. 19:29:02 as long as one can get some good keyboard based tiling action, you can call it whatever you like ;) 19:29:54 chadmaynard [i=97d594fa@pdpc/supporter/active/chadmaynard] has joined #lisp 19:30:06 schme: those of us on win32 just run Xming and work on the linux box in the basement :-) 19:30:10 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-096-244.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:17 fusss: hmmm... 19:30:26 fusss: I'll google that up. 19:30:35 schme: I once installed a blackbox variant on WinXP. It worked ok. 19:30:36 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.167.182] has joined #lisp 19:31:07 schme: remote X desktop, sans the desktop. you run X apps with win32 wm decorations and they behave like any other win32 app 19:31:07 schme: I remember having some issues and deciding it was easier to just use the Windows default WM. 19:31:22 hmm.. 19:31:36 fusss: But I really just want to use it to run visual studio, not X apps :) 19:31:53 ahaas: I see. 19:31:53 Blah. I'm writing a class hierarchy for an AST and I find myself doing a lot of this: (defclass jess-parse-foo-node (jess-parse-node) ((bar ... :documentation "The bar.")) (:documentation "A foo node.")) 19:32:06 what on earth. lisp #random-ot !? 19:32:13 lisp IN #random-ot 19:32:24 My bad, I'll head over to ##php. ;-) 19:32:28 haha. 19:32:44 NAh I'll just stop this madness. I'm not buying a new computer this year anyway. 19:32:53 [/schme-ot] 19:33:14 Aankhen``: are you messing with Jess, the java expert system engine? 19:33:17 I'm trying to figure out how to make the documentation more useful… I'm not making much headway, though. Most of the relevant information is auto-generated. 19:33:27 fusss: No, I read about that after I named my project. This is a JavaScript parser. 19:34:27 (I have no imagination, but I didn't want to call it "js-parse", so I decided to mangle the name a bit to make it sound cooler. And then once I'd written out half of it I found out about JESS.) 19:35:08 The real fun will start once I finish the parser and start writing jess-foo, jess-bar, etc. :-) 19:35:23 Aankhen``: wrap defclass then, and give slot specification a signature like (slot-name doc-string &rest initargs) that way you wont be typing ":documentation" any more and the macro will expect you to supply a string as a second argument. premature documentation is the root of all boredom, though. 19:35:45 fusss: That's not really what I'm worried about. I'm more interested in how to make it more useful. 19:35:51 But I think you're right anyway. 19:35:52 fusss: defclass* = totally pro 19:35:57 *Aankhen``* lays off the documentation for now. 19:37:14 slyrus: Is hunchentoot-auth still alive by any chance? 19:43:25 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.185.31] has joined #lisp 19:43:25 Confusion. Theoretically, giving a slot a :TYPE option only affects the values you can store in it, without forcing it to be bound, right? 19:43:47 (I say theoretically since that assumes the type constraint is actually enforced.) 19:44:33 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host166.201-253-15.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:44:35 An unbound slot's value cannot be acquired in order to violate a type constraint. 19:44:48 Okay, thanks. 19:45:24 I had been operating under that assumption all this time, then suddenly I panicked. :-S 19:45:39 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.71.178] has left #lisp 19:45:55 :type is nothing more than a compiler hint, from what i found out. 19:46:21 It is a promise. 19:46:35 fusss: Yeah, I'm really only using it for self-documenting purposes here, but I didn't want to end up in a situation where my self-documentation caused problems. :-) 19:46:53 Breaking that promise causes undefined behaviour. 19:47:24 riiight, i wish i knew that before i converted a good chunk of the dylan DUIM to cl. 19:47:46 Don't confuse type and class :) 19:48:00 good point 19:48:24 (This is part of why I was complaining earlier about the documentation. The class's name tells you what it corresponds to in JS. The slots tell you what, well, slots it has, and each slot has a descriptive name and a type. What more do I say?) 19:49:02 Aankhen``: class documentation > slot documentation usually 19:49:40 fusss: I'm using Atdoc (or will be once I figure out why it blows up), so I'll be including the slot documentation right there as part of the class documentation. 19:49:42 tinaa generated docs > than both 19:49:46 Haha. 19:51:32 I guess I'll probably figure out what's interesting about each node class once I write a few apps with this parser. 19:51:42 Seems like a long time to wait to add decent docs though. :-( 19:52:30 -!- chadmaynard [i=97d594fa@pdpc/supporter/active/chadmaynard] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:53:29 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.41.90] has joined #lisp 19:54:08 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.252.48.44] has joined #lisp 19:54:10 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-91-58.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:54:16 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 19:54:47 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.41.90] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.234.93] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C702.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- Balooga_ [n=luke@65.111.175.229] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- df_aldur [n=df@aldur.torak.ewdc.nl.bowerham.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- dfox__ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1EFDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633759.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- lasts [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-131-217.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-166.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:54:47 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:55:23 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@65.217.157.122] has quit ["later"] 19:55:51 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C702.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@c-71-232-102-206.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.41.90] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.234.93] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-166.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1EFDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-131-217.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633759.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 dfox__ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 lasts [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 df_aldur [n=df@aldur.torak.ewdc.nl.bowerham.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 Balooga_ [n=luke@65.111.175.229] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:54 netaustin [n=austinsm@65.217.157.122] has joined #lisp 19:56:44 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.41.90] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:57:06 -!- danlei` is now known as Guest89243 19:58:05 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb545f.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 19:59:05 get something working first, worry later. a tiny useful interface is better than a detailed documentation of the internals. 20:00:12 drakma is a perfect example here. an entire web client in one function call. you can look at the other stuff if you want more, but one function call does most of what you need. 20:00:19 clhs loop 20:00:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 20:00:24 It's not going to be tiny, but yeah, I'm getting it working without worrying about documentation unless something is ambiguous. 20:01:34 cl-html-parser has just one function call too; parse-html. closure-html does various things, but it's still just one function call which takes a constructor for the returned datatype as an argument. 20:02:17 Er, so? 20:03:25 X-Scale [i=email@89.181.97.86] has joined #lisp 20:04:09 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:17 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 20:06:09 only the maintainers bother with reading the detailed internal docs, most users will just want (defun parse-js (stream result-type) ..) where result-type is a js expression. that way they can plug the js fragment parser into closure-html or whatever. 20:06:44 Yup. 20:08:24 gilberth [n=gilbert@c138206.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 20:08:37 *fusss* just reads the unit tests actually :-) 20:08:55 Heh. 20:09:16 I tend to do that too, but only if I can't easily find what I'm looking for in the docs. 20:09:28 And with CL, I'm finding that often it's easiest to just read the source. 20:11:19 aNYWAY, ENOUGH FOR NOW. 20:11:21 Sorry. 20:11:25 *Aankhen``* heads to bed. 20:11:28 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.226.10] has quit ["It's so funny. Germany tried to take over the world twice with the two world wars. In the late 90s, they got so mad, they r] 20:12:39 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:13:19 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 20:16:06 naerbnic [n=naerbnic@cpe-98-148-116-245.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:08 -!- PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit ["leaving"] 20:16:26 -!- naerbnic [n=naerbnic@cpe-98-148-116-245.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:16:37 naerbnic [n=naerbnic@cpe-98-148-116-245.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:18 -!- X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.41.90] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:24:29 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:32 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:42 is there a way to get a string representation of a passed value, which might be an integer or a string ? 20:24:48 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.47.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:24:58 How about using format? 20:24:59 matley [n=matley@83.225.47.9] has joined #lisp 20:25:36 or princ-to-string 20:25:48 -!- Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-64068.home.otenet.gr] has quit [] 20:26:10 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:27:13 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:28:01 nan8 [n=user@dslb-088-067-018-169.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:45 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 20:29:46 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:30:00 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 20:30:15 elurin [n=user@88.224.46.85] has joined #lisp 20:30:38 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:10 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:25 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:09 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 20:35:23 ejs1 [n=eugen@92-49-227-193.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 20:35:58 clhsIt's so funny. Germany tried to take over the world twice with the two world wars. In the late 90s, they got so mad, they 20:36:02 sorry 20:36:37 (IIRC they didn't want to take over the world in World War I) 20:36:46 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-161.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:05 Does anyone know if the code Xach uses to make the sparklines on Planet Lisp is available anywhere? 20:37:16 I know about Vecto--my sparklines are just not looking nice like his. 20:38:19 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:48 gigamonkey: IIRC, he's using ZPNG for those. 20:39:12 jli [n=jli@adsl-074-229-201-181.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:27 waterh [n=waterh@114.143.32.31] has joined #lisp 20:39:46 is there a parse-float analog to parse-integer? 20:39:56 jli: yes 20:40:29 oh, read-from-string. ace. 20:40:30 minion: tell jfli about ieee-floats 20:40:30 jfli: please see ieee-floats: IEEE-Floats provides a way of converting values of type float and double-float to and from their binary representation as defined by IEEE 754 (which is commonly used by processors and network protocols). http://www.cliki.net/ieee-floats 20:41:34 jli: be sure to bind *read-eval* to nil. 20:41:39 if you use read-from-string 20:41:53 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@65.217.157.122] has quit [] 20:41:58 oh, sorry, I don't think ieee-floats does what you want. 20:42:25 minion: tell jli about parse-number 20:42:26 jli: please look at parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 20:42:37 jli: that's the one. 20:42:44 luis: thanks. 20:44:34 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.234.93] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:10 decafbad1 [n=mehmet@88.232.113.30] has joined #lisp 20:48:40 decafbad2 [n=mehmet@78.168.58.0] has joined #lisp 20:49:01 Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-64068.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:49:04 gigamonkey: scratch that. Skippy is it. 20:49:14 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.252.48.44] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:49:19 -!- decafbad2 is now known as decafbad 20:50:03 Is there some reason GIFs should be better than PNGs for this? 20:52:01 probably not 20:52:33 ejs2 [n=eugen@92.49.235.22] has joined #lisp 20:52:50 unless you want to animate them, I guess. 20:52:53 Right. 20:54:13 afa [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has joined #lisp 20:55:53 -!- decafbad1 [n=mehmet@88.232.113.30] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:02:01 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:02:27 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@92-49-227-193.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:05:01 hernia [n=chatzill@189.120.162.44] has joined #lisp 21:05:08 -!- hernia [n=chatzill@189.120.162.44] has left #lisp 21:07:40 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:08:47 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:15 PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 21:13:04 O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 21:15:26 sctb: yes, it should be, but it probably requires the hunchentoot-dev stuff from h4ns' svn repo 21:16:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:17:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:28 -!- Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 21:17:29 slyrus: Ahh. 21:19:38 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [] 21:20:58 (pushnew 'cl-librarian asdf:*replacements*)? 21:22:51 fusss: ASDF is not an installer 21:23:29 it's like saying that APT-GET is a Makefile replacement 21:25:06 asdf-install then 21:25:24 as far as i see, cl-librarian uses asdf 21:25:25 asdf is more like automake and autconf tho 21:27:01 Complex, badly-documented, and broken? 21:27:07 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:27:45 Is it possible to access slots with class allocation without having an object of that class? 21:28:52 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@82.49.206.234] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 21:29:07 deepfire: Yes. For values of yes meaning "no". 21:29:51 "The story you are about to hear is true. By which I mean false." (My favorite Simpsons line ever. Read by Leonard Nimoy) 21:29:52 In general, if you want to do that, then a class-allocated slot is the wrong mechanism. 21:30:22 If you absolutely -must- do that, it won't be portable. 21:30:24 nyef, I'd want to associate a value with the name of the class.. 21:30:36 I guess symbol properties are for that.. 21:30:44 Or hash tables, yes. 21:31:04 The question is, what do you do about subclasses inheriting your slot? 21:33:39 -!- sbahra_ is now known as sbahra 21:34:29 nyef, I have a mechanism for deducing the relevant superclass from subclass instances. 21:35:23 The problem with class allocation is that subclasses can redefine the slot, and get their own allocation, separate from the superclass.. 21:35:48 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@78.168.58.0] has left #lisp 21:35:48 Yeah, or you could just, you know, define a method to return the value you need. 21:35:49 This works best if the value is constant or load-time-valuable. 21:36:04 Or if you can do some indirection, like involve a symbol... 21:36:24 So you have a design space to explore, if need be. 21:39:25 Although what isn't entirely clear to me, is why class-allocated slot access is a wrong thing to want -- such slots clearly are properties of the class hierarchy subgraphs. 21:39:50 It's the wrong thing to want -if you want to access it without an instance-. 21:40:01 nyef, but why? 21:40:24 If it's a property of the hierarchy subgraph, why the pretense must be made? 21:40:24 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 21:40:26 Because there's no portably-defined access method for them. 21:40:32 -!- patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 21:40:46 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:41:01 Ah, but that's an argument for the language's flaw, not my motivation's flaw. 21:41:19 Depends on the driver for your motivation. 21:41:55 If you're motivation's motivation is to get working code, then you need to find an alternative. 21:42:20 nyef, I will. 21:42:50 The question is how well that alternative will represent my mental model of what I want. 21:43:51 I don't mean to bitch about that, no. If it looks like that, I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention. 21:47:20 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:21 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:47:23 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 21:47:31 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:47:46 You presumably want a map from classes to objects. You can do this with, say, a hash table, or a generic function specialized on EQL specializers, &c. 21:48:45 Riastradh, no, from classes to values.. 21:48:57 -!- mkdon [n=corlf@88-111-178-112.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:49:41 `Object' and `value' (and `datum') are synonymous here. 21:49:41 I have an exhaustive partition of some class and I want to mark whole class hierarchy subtrees as enabled/disabled. 21:49:51 `Instance' is probably the word you thought I said. 21:49:52 This is where we pick the terminology nit by pointing out that, by definition, all values in Common Lisp are objects, and vice versa. 21:50:22 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:51:15 Riastradh, yes, then I indeed agree with your proposal, that's how I'll end up doing it.. 21:51:18 This sounds like a -perfect- use for symbols like *foo-classes-enabled* and generic functions like class-enabled. 21:51:49 -!- Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-64068.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:51:49 Or, yeah, a hash table. 21:52:06 -!- naerbnic [n=naerbnic@cpe-98-148-116-245.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:52:31 -!- afa [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has quit [] 21:53:08 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-24-16-246-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:54:10 The hardest part of learning about `object-oriented programming' is divorcing oneself from the notion that by throwing `OOP' at a problem it magically gets organized in exactly the way that leads directly to a solution. 21:58:09 heh, sometimes it's other way around: the solution arranges itself automatically in ways that lead to problems (: 21:58:51 Riastradh, I keep getting the notion that expecting a type system which /almost/ allows one to attach values to object class hierarchy subgraphs to actually /do/ it is, somehow, a wrong thing (to expect). 21:58:54 *Riastradh* snickers. 21:59:09 Riastradh: That's a good quote right there. 21:59:33 It ought to go in "teach yourself OOP in 21 days" book. 21:59:34 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:59:51 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:00:30 Riastradh, and that, honestly, riles me up. 22:01:17 Well, you can always use the MOP! 22:01:42 -!- sctb [n=sctb@adsl-71-135-98-155.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:02:19 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:34 -!- bpalmer [n=user@unaffiliated/bpalmer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:03:46 (Make each class of which the property might questioned an instance of some metaclass that has the property as a slot.) 22:04:36 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:10:06 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:23 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:37 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-044-158.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:11:37 I'm trying to get the client's IP address when displaying a webpage to them with hunchentoot. I found the function (remote-addr) but that always returns "127.0.0.1". Any ideas how to do it? 22:12:12 Heh, ten minutes later I suddenly want to attach a second value to the same class hierarchy subgraphs.. now the MOP approach seems less heavy-weight. 22:12:29 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:13:08 OK I found it out, it's (real-remote-addr) that's the right one to use 22:13:09 kzar: is hunchentoot behind some frontend? 22:15:03 stassats: Well you pretty much have to don't you? 22:15:36 stassats: it's behind pound, I asked about that here before and apparently you have to unless you somehow get hunchentoot on port 80 22:15:37 hunchentoot can be standalone 22:15:59 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@92.49.235.22] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:16:10 you can do that via iptables 22:16:40 or run Lisp with root, but that's not a way I'd recommend. 22:16:44 oh right, didn't know that. Well I'm happy with pound anyway, seems alright 22:16:57 z0d: well that's not really an option 22:17:34 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:22:56 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 22:23:16 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:25:06 or you can use the :setuid and :setgid options for hunchentoot 22:25:33 dysinger [n=tim@71.237.178.94] has joined #lisp 22:27:26 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb545f.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 22:27:34 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb545f.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:28:36 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:54 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:30:17 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:30:19 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 22:32:05 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:08 -!- nan8 [n=user@dslb-088-067-018-169.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 22:34:27 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:35:47 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-223.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:49 MrSpec_ [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 22:36:05 -!- waterh [n=waterh@114.143.32.31] has quit ["I don't like you. But Bersirc 2.2 does. Try it out now. [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]"] 22:36:10 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:37:59 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has joined #lisp 22:41:11 milanj [n=milan@93.86.23.100] has joined #lisp 22:42:16 -!- jli [n=jli@adsl-074-229-201-181.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 22:42:31 dysinger_ [n=tim@71.237.178.94] has joined #lisp 22:42:38 -!- l_n [n=Not@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit ["bar"] 22:44:38 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.23.100] has quit [Client Quit] 22:45:25 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71.237.178.94] has quit [Client Quit] 22:45:45 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:47:36 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 22:48:10 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:48:23 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.237.178.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:54:01 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:57:27 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:58:44 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 23:07:16 -!- user___ [n=user@p54924ED1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:10:41 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5ac802a9.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:10 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:16 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:31 felix^^_ [n=fgeller@dslb-088-074-220-124.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:34 clhs nreverse 23:16:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_revers.htm 23:17:55 -!- egn_ [i=tux@nodes.fm] has quit ["leaving"] 23:18:21 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:19:56 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 23:20:20 meh, my form submission does a POST, redirect and gets a page with the submitted data. I was using META refresh to do it portably without JS and now SEO tricksters are telling me META refresh is bad for pagerank :-S 23:21:51 netaustin [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:39 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:46 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb545f.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:24:11 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5ac802a9.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 23:26:13 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.185.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:26:26 fusss: Well, "Web" is broken since long time and is likely to stay broken :) 23:27:08 egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 23:27:13 -!- egn [i=tux@nodes.fm] has quit [Client Quit] 23:29:20 for something ad hoc and undesigned, it sure is flexible though 23:29:38 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:32:19 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [] 23:33:12 however, it's still a wonder how better it works when I surf with JS, flash and the rest disabled... 23:33:15 -!- md` [n=user@213-151-238-36.icss.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:30 fusss: HTTP 303 > meta refresh 23:33:37 -!- felix^^ [n=fgeller@dslb-092-078-098-009.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:59 (303 is for *exactly* the purpose you mention above 23:34:39 hunchentoot REDIRECT does that. what do you recommend I should do if i wanted it to pause for a few seconds to say "Success!" 23:34:52 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.47.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:02 matley [n=matley@83.225.47.9] has joined #lisp 23:35:21 actually. never mind :-) 23:35:25 I for one would rather hurry up and see the result 23:35:55 yep. success message and posted content in the same page. duh. 23:36:13 yah, and if you want it to vanish do that with javascript :-) 23:37:08 yep. i already use mootools, "success" message can exit the stage _dramatically_ :-D 23:38:01 a semi-common pattern I've seen is to redirect to /the-new-content?message="Success!" where the message parameter gets put in a box on the page, whatever it is. However, that has the disadvantage of if you bookmark or otherwise preserve the link, you get a stale message when you reopen it 23:38:27 what *I* would do is show a success message the very first time the posted content is fetched 23:38:36 (since that will almost always be the poster) 23:39:10 I only just invented that idea, but I think it's robust in most relevant dimensions 23:39:40 i'm running a RESTful shop my friend. nice URLs and omnipodent (sp?) GETs. side-effects only via POST. lightbox gallery and jquery blog roll. I'm so Web 2.0, my fridge has a Trackback API which gets notified everytime I think of food. 23:39:58 dude, trackbacks are dead :-) 23:40:07 Spings? 23:40:21 you know what I'm talking about, that "in" thing that's cool. Yeah, that! 23:40:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_revers.htm 23:41:42 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:41:55 fusss: didn't you get the memo? we've all upgraded to web 2.1 now... 23:42:31 fusss: this is getting OT, but I thought http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/10/24/hypertext-driven-urls/ made a good point (read the last paragraph first for relevance) 23:45:00 fusss: omnipotent GETs? impressive. 23:45:17 tell one of those GETs to make me a cheeseburger then. 23:45:36 naerbnic [n=naerbnic@cpe-98-148-116-245.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:41 kpreid: looks good. for a web *application*. one the "page" oriented side of web development, search engines might refuse to look down a deep directory structure; all those forward slashes add up pretty quickly. but I see the article's point (read it a few months ago, IIRC) 23:47:04 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:31 slyrus_: first, you will need to get some SOAP api on your dirty hands. 23:47:32 yup, there are aesthetic and practical reasons to use pretty uris. I just think it's important to remember to avoid depending on them, even if it is easy to 23:48:59 Here's a puzzler, how would I make a tree out of a list if I've got the parent's id for each? Well what's a lispy way anyway? I did this before in PHP and I used pointers 23:49:25 each what? 23:49:34 each element? 23:49:42 each node or whatever you want to call it 23:50:01 has it's own ID and also I can get the parent's ID for it 23:50:06 make a hash-table of ids to nodes and iterate over the list... 23:50:06 how are the elements in the list related in a tree-oriented relationship? 23:50:32 each element has its own id and a parent-id? 23:50:49 Knuth has a clever and very straightfoward list representation for binary trees 23:52:19 so I loop through the list, put each item in a hash table under it's ID. Then how do I turn it into a tree? 23:53:16 kzar: paste a before and after representations of how your list looks now and how you want it to look as a tree 23:54:02 kzar: as you loop over it, look up the parent-id in the table and insert this node in the parent node's list of children 23:54:05 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:54:41 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:57:05 kpreid: but then what if it's two deep? 23:57:20 kzar: that's irrelevant 23:57:46 the hash table knows every node regardless of how deep it is in the tree 23:59:24 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:59:35 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp