00:00:10 stassats: perfect answer 00:01:38 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 00:01:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 00:03:09 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 00:03:33 well, I'm going out to play violin 00:03:34 88 00:03:43 -!- puddingpimp [i=wgfibhgg@118-93-91-183.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:03:46 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:16 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:04:36 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:05:36 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:08:57 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:10:43 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:43 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:11:27 -!- proq` is now known as proq 00:11:36 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-56-243.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:13:39 ,xml-rpc 00:14:51 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:16:17 -!- drafael [n=Ricardo@ip-118-90-143-35.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:19:44 inforichland [n=tim@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:38 drafael [n=drafael@ip-118-90-143-35.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:21:48 -!- ferada [n=ferada@g224144061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["gn8"] 00:23:04 So does lambda-gtk actually support win32 SBCL? I can't see any mention of it on their website 00:23:08 cooldude` [n=user@lawn-128-61-121-136.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 00:23:16 -!- cooldude` [n=user@lawn-128-61-121-136.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:23:20 The main reason I was going to use Ltk is the crossplatform-ness 00:25:19 -!- cooldude127 [n=user@r55h118.res.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:13 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:31:09 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-008-100.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:22 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [] 00:35:04 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:36:56 -!- drafael [n=drafael@ip-118-90-143-35.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:37:04 drafael [n=drafael@ip-118-90-143-35.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:37:32 drafael: ask fusss (not really sure if he is the right guy, but it sounded like he had something to do with it) 00:38:27 I think he went outside for a smoke or something, but yeah, I will if he shows up 00:40:18 -!- drafael [n=drafael@ip-118-90-143-35.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:24 drafael [n=drafael@ip-118-90-143-35.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:45:31 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-028-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:46:59 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-200-32.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:28 drafael: do you find lambda-gtk to be easier? (ltk felt very natural to me) 00:47:45 connecting with glade could be cool though... GUI's are a mess 00:50:50 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-e85a116b01d6fd3b] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:53:12 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:39 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-200-32.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:57:47 -!- antoni [n=antoni@169.pool85-53-5.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 00:57:49 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 01:02:04 -!- alex84 [n=zeronull@chello084114039189.14.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 01:08:00 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.64.182] has quit [] 01:08:05 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:11:28 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:06 is the doc string for make-hash-table (sbcl) correct? .. :key-and-value --> "either key _or_ value" .. :key-or-value --> "both the key _and_ the value" 01:18:28 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 01:18:58 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:19:01 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 01:20:22 if it's correct (by an application of de morgan's laws) it seems that at least it's confusing and you may propose a fix. 01:22:25 Fare: i have troubles cloning poiu, it says you need to run git update-server-info 01:23:25 oops 01:23:42 :D 01:24:44 try again 01:24:55 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.6.160] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:25:02 works now 01:25:58 danlei`` [n=user@pD9E2CD3B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:14 younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 01:27:26 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2CD3B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:28:21 -!- danlei`` is now known as danlei 01:28:54 -!- danlei is now known as Guest71247 01:29:06 drafael: i have nothing to do with lambda-gtk except being a satisfied user. I hack on it on win32 sbcl and only run it on linux for testing, to see everything looks good. and it does. 01:29:32 -!- Guest71247 is now known as danlei` 01:30:12 lambda-gtk IS gtk. Tk is dead easy, but it feels clunky and foreign on every platform. There are a myriad of Tk extensions and "improved" versions as well, too numerous to be useful. 01:30:34 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 01:32:38 -!- froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:51 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:33:49 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:15 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcm218.osnanet.de] has quit [] 01:36:35 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:37:39 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 01:38:10 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:35 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:35 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:41:39 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 01:41:40 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 01:46:11 dragon_ [n=dragon@AStrasbourg-151-1-2-185.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:47:53 fusss: is GTK+ usable on windows these days? 01:50:09 -!- dragon_ [n=dragon@AStrasbourg-151-1-2-185.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 01:51:56 luis: i really liked it. 01:52:56 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:53:02 i run the whole suite of major gnome apps on windows 01:54:26 there is a little secret about lambda-gtk that i prefer to keep to myself though :-P (ooh! suspense!) 01:54:42 O_o 01:55:47 the FFI was generated with a scheme app that runs on macs (?) and that fell of the face of the earth. to its credit though, it's very current and thoroughly complete. 01:55:49 fusss: you get paid for advertising it(?) <-: 01:56:26 oh 01:56:34 but when i tried to FFI some other GTK-based libs for more gui goodness, errr, ffi-gen was nowhere to be found 01:56:50 so you will have to do that by hand, in two places :-S 01:56:51 does it gen CFFI bindings? 01:56:57 yes 01:57:40 z0d: i was using it as a backend for my own gui toolkit, but then i got thrown into web-dev :-S 01:59:54 z0d: http://localhost:8080/blog/article/1 to read an article http://localhost:8080/blog/edit/article/1 to edit, /delete/article/1 to delete, etc. 02:00:08 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:00:21 looks ok? 02:00:21 l_n [n=Not@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 02:03:12 Yup. 02:03:28 -!- l_n [n=Not@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:04:06 Is the "/blog" part configurable? e.g. can I read an article as http://localhost:8080/article/1 ? 02:04:46 it's a *prefix-* thing 02:05:00 well, not yet :-P 02:22:06 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 02:22:23 M-x uncomment-region for LispWorks? 02:24:07 I'd like comment-toplevel-form instead, so I don't need to mark a region 02:27:36 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:29:25 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:29:39 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-153-129.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:49 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:51 Well, I should write it 02:34:36 -!- Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@126-39-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [] 02:35:15 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 02:35:22 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:35:39 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:57 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-153-129.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:37:02 what is that? 02:37:11 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-132-144.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:37 oh, that 02:38:04 blog comment versus code comment 02:39:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:39:38 fusss: I use comment-region mostly for commentig out whole top-level forms 02:41:58 _miya_ [n=_miya_@201.250.124.161] has joined #lisp 02:44:59 tisshy [n=ishtus@82-46-19-148.cable.ubr02.bath.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:45:33 hello, how can i get the length of a symbol? eg: 'x = 1 'xx = 2? 02:45:48 or at least find a way to distinguish between them 02:47:00 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-24-16-246-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:00 symbols have no lengths 02:47:19 their print-names might though 02:47:41 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:48:39 well how can i get the print-name? 02:48:44 -!- _miya_ [n=_miya_@201.250.124.161] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 02:49:08 (length (symbol-name 'x)) 02:49:49 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:50:06 tisshy: you probably are misusing symbols though 02:50:12 yes i just found that :P thanks 02:50:22 they can be compared for eq'uality as well 02:50:29 fusss: i am reading user input 02:52:54 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 02:53:46 tisshy: what are you going to do with it after reading it? 02:54:34 ahhhh, fun bugs 02:54:49 im translating it to a pattern 02:55:07 what do you mean by "pattern"? 02:55:15 then checking if it exists in my associative list 02:55:25 fusss: So how easy do you think a GTK+ windows SBCL app would be to distribute? 02:56:10 tisshy: why are you looking at its length then? 02:56:17 kpreid: generalizing it, more like input = 4 -> output = NUMBER and i check my assoc list for that number 02:56:24 drafael: dunno, it's just two files really. an exe an sbcl image. 02:56:46 but it's something i would feel far more confident in than anything Tk 02:56:50 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.235.121] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:56:53 because in only one case a symbol's length might be more than 1 02:57:12 fusss: so it just works off the bat with a GTK+ install on the machine? 02:57:32 tisshy: what are these cases? 02:57:36 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-132-144.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:57:50 a number raised to a power 02:57:58 drafael: yes. my gtk libs are not even installed for development. they came with Ethereal (the packet sniffer!) 02:58:17 Alright then, cool 02:58:34 *drafael* checks the licenses 02:58:38 tisshy: I still don't have a very good picture of your problem. but I'm pretty sure that you shouldn't be READing your input 02:59:23 excellent, LLGPL 02:59:30 I'll go with that then 03:01:09 i read a function from user input and evaluate it based on my associative list 03:03:46 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:04:14 -!- CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:04:55 fusss pasted "lambda-gtk sample" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73307 03:07:57 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:08:23 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:36 CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:09:55 drafael: see that paste. 03:10:41 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:41 i also have a template app skeleton with a tool toolbar, a menubar and multitab client area (a la firefox) 03:10:52 you can cut and paste for creating editor type apps 03:12:39 -!- hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633759.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 03:12:56 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Operation timed out] 03:13:15 drafael: see here http://paste.lisp.org/display/73308 03:14:22 Looking now 03:14:33 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 03:14:52 Cool, that should be useful 03:15:16 I need to brush up on my GTK though, it's been a while 03:15:23 Thanks :) 03:16:28 -!- inforichland [n=tim@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [] 03:16:35 some people like the win32 native look, others don't. comment out the call to gtkrc if you don't like it. 03:17:01 I'll probably use native because people will be more used to it 03:18:46 i have a weird multi-stage loader for lambda-gtk; it's some quirk i fixed, but forgot what it was. feel free to msg me if you encounter it. 03:19:05 pngwen [n=pngwen@68.47.170.239] has joined #lisp 03:19:13 i take that back 03:19:31 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 03:19:32 ._. 03:20:15 I want the SBCL EUC-JP bug I reported to be fixed.. I had a look at the source but it was extremely confusing 03:20:21 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:20:30 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:31 Mostly because everything was stored in a hash table and I couldn't find where it was stored from 03:21:17 you will need to comment out libdl and libpangoft if and DON'T load lambda-gtk-examples! 03:21:29 this is really horrible, but the examples are broken 03:21:51 mornin' 03:22:02 errr, comment out pango and dl if you want to run the examples 03:23:07 I'll figure it out, don't worry 03:23:11 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:23:41 good times! just worried somebody "soft" might hit a wall and mod my chakra down -2 :-P 03:24:32 hey schme! 03:24:38 hey fusss ! 03:25:15 schme: just finishing up my hunchentoot-based blog 03:26:03 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 03:27:13 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:38 fusss: at 4 am! good work! 03:27:51 fusss: new blog software or ? 03:27:56 4am? it's 10:27PM 03:28:01 blog 'software' 03:28:07 well ya. 03:28:11 cl-ware :) 03:28:16 roughly 10 functions, two classes and three database tables 03:28:43 cool! 03:29:17 can you share the source? 03:29:35 fusss: someone sent mail to one of the local newspapers saying something like "only depressed people with no lives are into blogging" ;) 03:29:48 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:30:10 netaustin [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:30:34 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:30:52 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:54 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.252.97.111] has left #lisp 03:31:07 kleppari: yes of course. the whole thing was conceived in here 3 days ago 03:31:33 right now it's littered with my client's corporate name, will clean it up a bit 03:31:57 s/Microsoft//g ;) 03:32:15 ok now I have coffee so I can start to understand where I am 03:33:14 I wonder if newspaper editors have much problem with all the letters to them being ads for viagra 03:33:18 -!- bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:35:02 Hahaha. 03:36:07 knapr [n=hask@h78n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:29 is it possible handle 15000*500000 matrices in common lisp? 03:36:39 -!- pngwen [n=pngwen@68.47.170.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:36:53 Sure. 03:36:59 anything is possible 03:37:09 That's the answer to most questions of that form. 03:37:31 knapr: But you probably want to split it up and send it all of to you GPU for processing anyway ;) 03:38:26 common lisp does not have sparse matrices built in, if that's the question 03:39:21 About this anything is possible.. I have been pondering my callback issue. I refuse to give up the notion that it is a *bad idea*. :) 03:39:39 I think I just need to dig deeper into the core of sbcl. 03:41:03 -!- knapr [n=hask@h78n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:41:06 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:52 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:46:01 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:47:04 lambda [n=lambda@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:06 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@88.pool85-49-190.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:49:25 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 03:49:25 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@88.pool85-49-190.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 03:52:47 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:54:22 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 03:55:08 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Client Quit] 03:56:42 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 04:01:23 massive matrices are fun to play with. nothing exposes clever algorithms and optimization tricks like massive arrays :-) 04:02:23 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:05:33 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:06:42 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-112-171.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:08:05 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633759.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:10:19 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:11:21 -!- gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b0e88fa3ff334df4] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 04:11:22 -!- mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:12:27 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:14:05 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:05 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:23 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:05 mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:14 sbcl is compiling now, hopefully I've fixed the bug for my purposes >_> 04:19:40 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:42 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:42 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-139-107.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:05 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:25:49 Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 04:26:04 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:11 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:42 yet another 15 hour work day comes to a conclusion 04:30:00 nite folks! 04:30:03 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:34:14 rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:04 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:49:19 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-137.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 04:50:17 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:57:31 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 05:06:06 myconnectionisaw [n=dcl@h145.248.31.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:45 egn [n=puffy@c-76-25-206-124.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:53 lambda_ [n=lambda@vpn01-border.birthdayalarm.com] has joined #lisp 05:10:05 -!- myconnectionisaw [n=dcl@h145.248.31.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:10:10 any off chance someone is running Hunchentoot on OpenBSD? 05:10:17 -!- lambda_ [n=lambda@vpn01-border.birthdayalarm.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:12:18 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:12:43 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:18:10 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 05:18:39 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:18:51 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:54 segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1CD85.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:52 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1CA14.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:09 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 05:25:14 -!- lambda [n=lambda@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:49 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:31:07 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 05:35:03 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-139-107.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 05:43:00 -!- rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:43:17 rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:55 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:50:37 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 05:53:12 -!- egn [n=puffy@c-76-25-206-124.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:58:41 leo2007 [n=leo@124.72.184.204] has joined #lisp 06:01:13 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 06:01:40 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:06 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-112-171.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 06:04:09 beach [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 06:04:15 Good afternoon. 06:04:30 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:05:08 hey beach 06:06:06 slyrus_: How are things? 06:06:55 good. making decent headway on my chemistry drawing application. I continue to stumble across mcclim issues. I'm wondering if I'm the only one actively developing a mcclim app ATM though. 06:07:17 and you? 06:07:17 Could be. There was schme for a while as well. 06:08:30 slyrus_: Well, it's tough having two lives, with colleagues in Bordeaux making demands while I am asleep, and the ones here while I am awake. In addition, the hotel "stole" 3h of work from me this morning, because their wifi was not working, but in general I can't complain. But it means that Lisp hacking will have to wait. 06:08:35 schme? 06:09:02 slyrus_: That's one of the Swedes here. 06:09:17 slyrus_: try /whois schme 06:09:22 by here I assume you mean bx? 06:09:29 #lisp 06:09:32 ah, ok 06:11:25 slyrus_: Though here is a funny story: One of the Vietnamese students here (HCM) did his internship in Bx. He didn't get paid the first month so I lent him 400 EUR. He wanted to pay it back, but I refused, so he is going to invite all his colleages + me and my wife to a French restaurant here in HCM> 06:11:44 slyrus_: Obviously we have to check them all out first, so we are starting tonight :) 06:12:03 sounds like fun :) 06:13:20 In other Vietnam-related good news, there is a high probability that one of my MS students here is going to get a grant to do a PhD with me as his advisor. The subject is going to be Gsharp! 06:13:32 here = HCM this time. 06:16:19 cool 06:16:22 beach: some of the mcclim things I've discovered are: 06:17:35 1) the with-{scaling,translation,rotation} forms are nice, but I need more control over global and device coordinates for doing things like placing lines and text and making them not stomp on each other 06:18:10 2) the list-pane widget/gadget/whatchamacallit seems broken 06:18:35 3) (this is more of a question) is there a way to have slidy-splitter panes instead of fixed size ones? 06:18:47 4) anti-aliased graphics are really ugly :) 06:19:03 5) the whole redraw mechanism is still a bit of a mystery to me 06:19:46 As for 4, I thin that's a problem with the backend. I think it was hefner who said that a framebuffer backend might be the only reasonable way to get consistent and good AA drawing. 06:20:10 By redraw, do you mean repaint or redisplay? :) 06:20:13 6) it's still not clear to me the "best" way to get "handles" to the graphic-y components from commands. it seems like you're supposed to do things the clim way, and if you want other modes of interaction, it's rather clunky, but I could be doing it wrong 06:20:31 For 3, what do you mean by a splitter pane? 06:20:44 beach: yes :) (redraw or redisplay). it's still not clear to me what exactly the difference is. 06:21:11 Climacs, when you do C-x 3, allows you to slide the frontier between the two, so that's done. 06:21:29 beach: imagine two panes with a control element between them that allows for the sliding ... ah, ok. I guess I can look at how climacs does it. 06:21:39 slyrus_: repaint means drawing existing output records, redisplay means creating new ones from old ones. 06:22:07 Remind me what the list pane does? 06:22:30 the list pane displays a bunch of items in a list and allows you to select individual members of the list 06:22:48 there's a test for it in demodemo 06:22:50 Ah, must be a gadget then. 06:23:13 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 06:23:14 I think I mean redisplay then. 06:23:24 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 06:23:25 In what way is it broken? (I never use gadgets). 06:24:02 *beach* checks the CLIM spec for list pane 06:24:51 if you try demodemo you'll notice that one of the list items is highlit and that doesn't get updated as you select another item in the list 06:25:17 Ah, OK. 06:26:08 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 06:26:18 OK, so for 1, what kind of additional control do you imagine. I mean, transformed stuff should overlap if and only if untransformed stuff does (except text). 06:26:37 beach: now I see: clim-extensions::box-adjuster-gadget 06:27:04 beach: yeah, it's that "except text" and other fixed pixel-size objects I'm concerned about 06:27:10 And the only way to get text right is to allow glyphs to transformed the way the rest is, and that's what I am working on for the framebuffer backend. 06:28:21 Perhaps for text you could use TrueType, and (again perhaps) someone actually made it possible to transform the glyphs then? 06:29:07 Images are much trickier because quality will be degrades after (at least most) transformations. 06:29:28 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:41 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:29:41 beach: I don't think I really want the glyphs transformed. I just want to know the size of the text box and how to interpret that vis a vis the global coordinates 06:29:48 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:50 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 06:29:59 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-29-17.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 06:30:08 I always want my "C" to be 12 point and non-rotated. I just want the line connecting two "C"s, for instance, to not stomp on the C. 06:30:17 Hmm, could it be that some networks block access to sites with a dyndns address? 06:31:20 beach: the whole box-adjuster-gadget thing seemed to catch on in the mid-90s. It should no longer be a mcclim-extension, but part of the clim98 spec, IYAM. 06:31:52 For glyphs like that, can't you compute the bbox and then transform it by the inverse of the user transformation? 06:32:19 slyrus_: OK, I'll put it in CLIM 3 :) 06:32:29 beach: yeah, probably. I'm just not quite sure how to do that yet :) 06:32:49 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:33:00 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-24-16-246-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:33:05 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:33:11 It does sound tricky to avoid such problems when some objects get transformed and some don't. 06:33:29 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-24-16-246-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:41 hey, look at that, the box-adjuster-gadget thing works! cool. 06:36:49 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:45:08 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 06:47:35 damn. the box-adjuster-gadgety-thing makes my menus go away 06:48:40 beach: I just get this nagging feeling that mcclim is caught somewhere between a glorious future and a distant past... 06:55:29 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 06:56:31 Sounds about right. 06:57:39 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:58:35 echo-area [n=xugp@nat/yahoo/x-9d5896813a66f550] has joined #lisp 06:59:55 Hi, I wrote a program with sbcl. Why is the program slower when I redirect its output into a regular instead of to /dev/null? 07:00:36 About twice as slow when writing a file as when redirecting to /dev/null 07:00:38 oh, I forgot. I'm supposed to clim-lisp, right? 07:02:33 s/regular/regular file/ 07:02:50 beach: I'm not sure I agree about the whole transformed image thing. the quality may degrade, but only for that immediate transformation. the underlying image is still intact and subsequent transformations will be no worse than the first 07:03:43 but, again, there probably needs to be some flexibility here to have images transformed, or not. 07:04:22 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:04:46 I feel like I want some sort of draw-foo** family of calls that takes a transformation. you can imagine having a complicated drawing context where you're dealing with multiple transformations and want to treat the transformations as first-class objects. 07:05:09 oh, wait. I _am_ using clim-lisp 07:08:39 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-25-151.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 07:09:09 who/how/what broke my list pane? 07:09:17 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@88.pool85-49-190.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:09:36 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:10:02 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:10:07 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 07:12:57 box-adjuster-gadget is kind of broken, because I never understood how to wrestle the layout gadgets into doing exactly what I tell them 07:13:04 slyrus_: Don't all the draw-foo* calls take a transformation? 07:13:30 ah, so they do! cool 07:14:08 another problem is that I keep running into my lack of knowledge or broken assumptions about clim and mcclim :) 07:14:32 hefner: try the list-pane test in demodemo and you'll see what I mean 07:14:37 -!- binghe [n=chatzill@219.82.158.74] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:15:17 I may have lost my mind, because I can't find the list test I thought was here. There's a "List Test", but it opens some weird apropos thing I've never seen before. 07:16:55 yeah, that's the one I was talking about 07:17:41 *hefner* blames lichtblau 07:18:15 slyrus_: boken assumptions might be CLIM's most serious problem. 07:20:22 ExcelsisD [i=email@89.180.151.184] has joined #lisp 07:24:50 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 07:25:12 good morning 07:26:17 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:26:24 hello l_a_m 07:26:30 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:32 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 07:29:45 kenjin [n=kenjin@221.162.108.193] has joined #lisp 07:30:35 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:33:35 kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 07:34:51 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 07:35:12 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.152.91] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:36:03 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:43:08 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 07:43:41 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:45:31 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:46:28 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.226.10] has joined #lisp 07:48:04 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:49:14 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 07:53:19 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CD3B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:54:03 master-flomaster [i=yumi@213.129.54.27] has joined #lisp 07:54:51 -!- beach [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 07:57:27 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:18 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CD3B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:51 X-Scale [i=email@89-180-145-85.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 08:04:56 good morning 08:05:30 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-176.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:07:29 -!- ExcelsisD [i=email@89.180.151.184] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:08:21 good day =) 08:09:04 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:09:16 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 08:09:27 I gave a presentation on scheme. 08:09:46 3 people out of like 40 people liked it :-] 08:13:10 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:13:58 Why no more? 08:13:59 +t 08:13:59 I don't know 08:13:59 some guy gave one on clojure 08:14:00 I think I was rushed I should have prepaired more and made it more consice 08:14:00 it was a lightning talk 08:14:05 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- andrewy [n=irssi@cl-53.lax-01.us.sixxs.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- wolfboy22 [i=baumgold@tithonus.cs.brandeis.edu] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.18.72] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- technik [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- Jaearess [n=jrs@wsip-70-184-232-189.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- j_king [n=jking@mortar.walled.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:05 -!- eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:14:06 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:14:16 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 wolfboy22 [i=baumgold@tithonus.cs.brandeis.edu] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 gz [n=gz@209.6.18.72] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 Jaearess [n=jrs@wsip-70-184-232-189.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 andrewy [n=irssi@cl-53.lax-01.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 technik [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 08:14:16 j_king [n=jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:17 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:22:17 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 08:22:19 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:22:50 -!- younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 08:23:40 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CD3B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:24:14 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CD3B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:21 -!- master-flomaster [i=yumi@213.129.54.27] has quit [] 08:28:03 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 08:31:40 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:12 good morning 08:32:39 beach [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:33:07 Ah, that was a nice and well-deserved cup of Vietnamese coffee. 08:33:41 beach: how does it taste there? 08:34:49 madnificent: very strong, a bit sweet (even without sugar), and not bitter like most French coffee. 08:38:33 sound like a treat :) For what project are you there? 08:42:50 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 08:43:36 Hi 08:45:56 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0D4F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:46:15 madnificent: My department runs a masters program here. 08:46:24 hello MrSpec 08:50:14 -!- beach [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:57:02 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:58:59 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.129.171] has joined #lisp 09:08:19 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:40 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:10:21 -!- Eleanore [n=a@ip215131.lbinternet.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:13:51 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:14:41 hello bea 09:14:50 oops 09:15:24 what time is it in Vietnam? 09:15:56 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:16:00 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:18:29 ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has joined #lisp 09:19:05 Eleanore [n=a@ip215131.lbinternet.se] has joined #lisp 09:22:59 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@207.pool85-49-175.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 09:25:20 Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:25:24 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:25:41 netfrog [n=NetFrog@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #lisp 09:33:41 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 09:41:14 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:46:07 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 09:49:33 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 09:52:38 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@124.72.184.204] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:55 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:54:59 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 09:55:24 beach [n=user@58.186.166.220] has joined #lisp 09:55:36 Good evening. 09:55:46 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:56:29 mvilleneuve: 17:00 or so now. 09:57:16 mvilleneuve: but people have dinner here around 18:00 or even before that, so I think it is fair to say "evening". 09:59:36 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 10:01:22 a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has joined #lisp 10:02:14 jamief [n=jamie@158.223.53.104] has joined #lisp 10:03:53 cracki [n=cracki@47-219.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:08:20 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89-180-145-85.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 10:11:10 Reaver_11 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 10:11:14 -!- segv__ is now known as segv 10:13:13 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 10:15:31 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:16:03 -!- Gracenotes [n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has quit ["Telnet - The client of the future"] 10:16:28 Gracenotes [n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has joined #lisp 10:16:42 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-29-17.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:18:24 hi how do i replace a symbol from inside a cons? eg (1 2 x 4 5) should be replaced with 3 therefore = (1 2 3 4 5)? 10:19:02 clhs replace 10:19:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_replac.htm 10:19:11 <_3b> clhs substitute 10:19:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sbs_s.htm 10:19:59 -!- cracki [n=cracki@47-219.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 10:20:05 sorry, I meant substitute 10:20:39 perfect thanks :D 10:20:47 *_3b* guessed replace first too :) 10:21:49 heh 10:22:58 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:23:32 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:25:28 rfgpfeiffer [n=rfgpfeif@141.89.226.149] has joined #lisp 10:27:27 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 10:29:19 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:16 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:30:21 user____ [n=user@p54925974.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:18 -!- netfrog [n=NetFrog@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has left #lisp 10:34:11 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:18 -!- echo-area [n=xugp@nat/yahoo/x-9d5896813a66f550] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:39:01 beach` [n=user@58.186.166.135] has joined #lisp 10:39:17 -!- beach` [n=user@58.186.166.135] has left #lisp 10:40:06 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 10:40:40 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 10:42:35 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 10:44:09 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [Client Quit] 10:44:17 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 10:44:53 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:45:58 -!- user____ [n=user@p54925974.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Changing server"] 10:47:52 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:50:04 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.235.74] has joined #lisp 10:51:07 Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:52:37 fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.119.62] has joined #lisp 10:53:53 -!- Reaver_11 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:54:21 is WITH-SLOTS and SLOT-VALUE working on structs something that the standard mandates, or is it just a common extension? (SBCL, ACL, and CLISP all allow it) 10:55:07 it's standard 10:55:11 clhs with-slots 10:55:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_slts.htm 10:55:15 great, thanks 10:55:18 clhs slot-value 10:55:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm 10:55:32 i was looking at that page, but it's not very explicit about what constitutes an 'object' 10:55:47 a CLOS object I presume 10:55:48 and looking up 'object' in the glossary, it gives conses as an example :\ 10:55:59 oh, structs are considered to be CLOS objects? 10:56:28 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:56:29 Every object in CL is a CLOS object. 10:56:57 but not every object has slots 10:57:05 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.166.220] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:57:07 Sure -- slots are not required. 10:57:14 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.69.24] has joined #lisp 10:58:22 <_3b> structs aren't standard-class are they? 10:58:32 No, they are structure-class 10:58:50 <_3b> then doesn't the slot-value page say it is implementation defined if they work or not? 10:59:02 <_3b> or unspecified rather 10:59:09 I believe so. 11:02:48 -!- tisshy [n=ishtus@82-46-19-148.cable.ubr02.bath.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:08 it is unspecified whether slot-value works on conditions and structures 11:06:37 thanks, that's what I needed to know 11:07:21 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1BE8.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:01 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:20:30 -!- drafael [n=drafael@ip-118-90-143-35.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 11:27:28 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:27:41 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:32:18 -!- rfgpfeiffer [n=rfgpfeif@141.89.226.149] has quit [] 11:33:29 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.137.153] has joined #lisp 11:34:12 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D4F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:53 how can i use portable aserve on windows with sbcl? hes missing a fuction 11:35:56 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:36:01 char->utf8 11:37:45 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 11:37:45 don't use portable aserve if you can avoid it 11:37:51 but I don't know the answer to your question 11:38:15 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.243.155] has quit [Operation timed out] 11:40:12 and how can I avoid this? 11:40:36 use hunchentoot as an HTTP server instead? 11:41:15 see http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/ 11:41:38 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:42:55 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.69.24] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:43:45 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:43:49 thanks 11:43:55 cmsimon [n=cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 11:44:01 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 11:46:28 In what case can the slot of a struct be not missing but unbound ? 11:46:45 Um, how can a slot be missing? 11:47:14 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:47:51 Zhivago: if it's not declared, and one uses slot-value ? 11:48:03 or is it unbound is this case ? 11:48:59 Um, the slot has a default value in the case of structs, and as mentioned above, slot-value isn't required to operate on structs 11:49:29 ok, so a struct slot can't be unbound, only missing ? 11:49:41 what can I use instead of cond to evaluate all test-forms ? even if more then one is true ? 11:49:42 well, it can't be either, in portable CL. 11:49:59 Zhivago: ok, I understand. 11:50:06 Zhivago: thanks. 11:50:33 Mr: A bunch of when? 11:50:37 MrSpec: (when (foop) (frob a)) (when (barp) (frob b)) 11:51:00 ah, thx tcr 11:55:54 mudballs has a wiki now? super! 11:56:05 borism [n=boris@195-50-207-112-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:56:58 is there a way to encode the structures of abstract trees as a series of charachters (say, a collection of parens) such that the topology of a tree is uniquely encoded, regardless of the ordering of the tree in its native representation? 11:57:34 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:57:39 I can't think of any scheme for which there are not also pathogical cases that present ambiguities in the way the tree should be encoded 12:00:46 Kathrin-25^away [n=kati-zh@164-61-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 12:01:24 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-224-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:45 mib_1ofmie [i=4f346e46@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8699db9c064939c6] has joined #lisp 12:04:23 cads, the number 25, 11001, RRLLR, (()((()(nil))())) is that what you mean? 12:05:37 the nil would not be necessary.. but essentially 12:06:49 in this case, the scheme could never generate the topologically equivalent (((()(nil))())()), where the first node of the tree has been moved to the end of the representation 12:07:50 cads: my guess is that you can't just describe it that way. You need to say when something opens and when something closes 12:07:50 but I do not understand your scheme completely, maybe RRLLR is the unique way of encoding that tree? 12:08:06 which are two characters per node 12:08:51 yeah, I think nested parens are the perfect way to represent trees in this cases 12:08:52 you could use one character per node by using more characters though (say A means ((, B means (), C means )) ) 12:09:54 eevar2 [n=jalla@239.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:02 cads: that would give you one character per node or whatnot, but it doesn't allow for shifting them around. A binary pattern will probably win, but that too will not allow you to simply move random parts around and get something meaningful in the string 12:10:09 the problem is where it's possible to write the same tree in different forms using parentheses, for example (() (() ()) ) and ((() ()) ()) 12:11:10 cads: how are those trees the same? 12:11:24 cads: I'd go for a binary. 1101101000 and 1110100100. 12:11:53 jdz: unordered 12:12:04 oh, unordered. right. 12:12:10 jdz, in a topological sense those trees are the same tree, in that you could draw the trees and rearrange the nodes to get the same tree 12:12:43 cads: you want to have a unique way of representing the trees, regardless of the order? 12:13:33 right, there are many orders in which one could encoded a given tree, and I'd like to get rid of all but one of them 12:13:58 if that is the case, then I assume (but really nothing more than an assumption), that you'll need to define a canonical representation of the tree, so you can then represent it in whatever format that represents the tree. Since the canonical format gives you an ordering, it will be comparable 12:15:18 yes, such a canonical form is what I'm looking for, but so far I can't think of a form which can't also represent the same topological structure in a different order 12:15:19 cads: and if you don't want that, think very hard about primes, and you may be able to find another solution :) 12:15:23 nested sets maybe 12:15:54 cads: list with the least amount of lists first (recursively). 12:16:51 cads: recursively -> at arbitrary depth. When two trees then give you the same result, they actually represent the same tree, so it doesn't matter which you put first, the string will be the same 12:17:06 mrSpec pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73313 12:17:06 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:26 I thought of that but could see cases where two sublists have the same number of sublists but are fundamentally different in structure 12:18:52 opt9 [n=user@59.7.205.138] has joined #lisp 12:19:34 hrm 12:19:42 Beeet [n=stathis@wifi139-50.pubaccess.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 12:20:06 cads: at arbitrary depth, it should work. Say this: 12:20:56 I think there's got to be some order on the trees which gives a unique number to each tree topology 12:21:01 (()()(()()())) would come before (()(()())(()())) 12:21:42 Soulmann [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:21:49 cads: as I may have forgotten to type: yes, it will probably exist. If it exists, you will need to search for something like prime numbers to represent stuff. 12:22:07 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:56 the goedel-coding (I hope the name is right) of machines (I saw that in a logic course) could get you started. 12:23:10 where does (() (()) (() () ())) fit? 12:23:30 cads: in between 12:24:14 it has as many lists at the first level, the first node has as many levels in any level, the second node has more items than the first one, but less than the second one. 12:24:42 hmm 12:25:09 -!- mib_1ofmie [i=4f346e46@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8699db9c064939c6] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 12:25:48 cads: a number-encoding would probably be the most interesting. You'll probably have to build that inside-out. But my guess would be that, by using a primary number to the nth power for each level, multiplied by a prime-number to represent the amount of trees in it, then you take a prime-number for each sub-tree... it might just work 12:26:00 hmmm, sounds challenging 12:26:19 sounds very interesting too 12:26:30 -!- Gracenotes [n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:26:36 I was thinking along those lines too 12:27:15 your recursive comparison and reordering scheme may work 12:27:28 cads: define a total ordering among trees, then sort each tree's children before representing them 12:27:58 I have one :) 12:28:33 cads: I wrote it on my drawing board, hope I can put it in a pastie somehow :) 12:29:14 hehe 12:29:38 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:31:47 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@207.pool85-49-175.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:32:10 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@207.pool85-49-175.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 12:32:59 kpreid, defining that total ordering is where my brain is stuck... then i might say TopologicallyCanonicalTrees = Zero | Succ TopologicallyCanonicalTrees 12:33:53 madnificent pasted "list -> number coding" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73314 12:34:56 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:35:04 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 12:35:19 cads: some idiotic way to represent that, is by calculating all permutations, and pick the smallest number to represent a certain form :P 12:37:03 could you tell my why I got "when should be a lambda expression" ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/73313 12:37:35 MrSpec: you have a ( too much there, no? 12:37:50 MrSpec: aaah, I see what you want 12:37:51 sec 12:38:01 ok :) 12:38:06 madnificent annotated #73313 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73313#1 12:38:13 do you want that? 12:38:55 have to read what is progn, sec 12:38:58 MrSpec: you could've solved it, by changing the if into a when too, when accepts multiple forms :) 12:39:07 hmm 12:39:10 MrSpec: it just executes everything within itself :) 12:39:13 -!- def [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:39:20 def [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:40 MrSpec: it allows you to give a series of things that you want done, when only a single form is allowed to be given :) 12:39:49 hehe ok thanks I'll remember this 12:40:54 cads: I think you should be able to remove the ordering part from it, but I couldn't immediately figure out how. It should be within the same line of thought, if it is possible. Allso, you do understand how you can get every bit of data back out, right? (I'm willing to explain, but not if it is useless) 12:41:08 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:27 cads: and the * is a multiplication, so (* 8 3 5 49 11 13) would be the thing 12:42:57 heh, gives 840840 :) 12:43:02 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:44:01 cads: as a usefull optimisation, you don't need to give the empty trees a prime-number, as it is allready implied that they are there 12:44:07 using products of powers of primes is sure to be a rich way to represent it 12:44:28 but I am still at a loss for something 12:45:07 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 12:45:27 cads: if you would define your problem as: the permutation of the tree, that returns the smallest number with that encoding, then you have some canonical form which makes it all comparable. (then think later if there is some way to quickly calculate that) 12:45:33 maybe recursively presorting using your prime number scheme works 12:47:05 madnificent, I like how you've at least come up with a formulation of it 12:47:21 any encoding will work, the presorting is simply the key to make it work. I am thinking that there must be a trick (like the one saying 3^0 -> 1 -> we must not write that one down). that should allow the swapping of primes... 12:50:25 using the primes and minimizing the resulting product of the permutation of the branches of the tree at any given sub brances, and applying that from the leaves in to the root, may work 12:52:03 younder [i=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 12:53:06 mulander [n=user@80.51.122.72] has joined #lisp 12:53:12 Has anyone been working on bivalent streams? As found in ACL? 12:53:40 afa [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has joined #lisp 12:54:51 younder: I'm working on that 12:54:56 <_8david> SBCL has bivalent streams (but not exactly as found in ACL) 12:55:09 madnificent annotated #73314 with "silly fixes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73314#1 12:55:39 cads: ^ 12:55:41 fe[nl]ix: Interesting. How far have you come? 12:56:15 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 12:56:54 madnificent that look really promising 12:57:06 I have been wonering about increasing Huncentoot's I/O performance. 12:57:08 worry about speed later 12:57:44 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.69.18] has joined #lisp 12:57:47 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:57:56 It's already in work in a company (Prime Trader), but uses PHP 12:58:06 cads: the problem is, that you'll need to check infinitly in depth, as to find the optimal solution. Any number can overthrow the prime above it, so finding the smallest one is far from trivial (well, it probably is trivial, but it seems I'm not finding it anyway). 12:58:13 <_8david> stream bivalence is a about being able to implement the HTTP protocol easily, not about implementing it in a highly performing way 12:58:43 younder: I've written one implementation based on Gray streams, which works pretty well, and now I'm writing another one - from scratch, no Gray streams 12:58:47 <_8david> flexi streams gives you bivalent streams and low performance. But they are still different issues. 12:59:07 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-28-97.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 12:59:13 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-28-97.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:59:19 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:59:20 Lisp has potential to completly outperform the existing solution, but performance in I/o let's it down.. 12:59:37 cads: note that this way of noting it, is not superior to the binary notation, since that maps to a number too. It does look rather fancy :) 12:59:42 dnm [n=dnm@97.sub-75-197-7.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 13:00:44 -!- opt9 [n=user@59.7.205.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:00:47 fe[nl]ix: gray steams are too slow. As you have probible figured out. 13:01:20 hehe 13:01:33 I'm sure there's some reason we're using primes *wink* 13:01:41 aside from running up the processor 13:02:08 blitz_ [n=julian@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:46 -!- Eleanore [n=a@ip215131.lbinternet.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:02:55 but, hot damn, the binary notation does give a unique number to a particular encoding, and you can just as easily optimize for size 13:04:13 in fact, it can make optimising for size easier, as you know you must simply have the most opening braces first :) 13:04:34 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:04:46 cads: it really becomes a trivial algorithm in that case :) 13:05:37 chances are, that with primes you'll find a way to 'not caring' about where an element is. With the binary notation, that is plainly impossible 13:06:13 fe[nl]ix: Prime trader is a client/server solution that does most of the stock trade in Norway, sno we are talking thousands of simultaious users 13:06:16 hehe, I'll work it out on paper 13:06:27 I think there might still be a loophole 13:06:38 cads: as for the primes, it is probably going to be something like raising a prime to another prime :) 13:06:39 is there a function to order a list by frequency? 13:06:43 ahh 13:06:46 i found it 13:06:53 cads, madnificient: isn't it much simpler to just start serialising to strings at the bottom, and use string< to compare the resulting sub-tree-strings? 13:07:27 we're essentially putting the deepest nested leaf forward 13:07:42 fe[nl]ix: at current huncentoot can handle about 200 requests/s. That is a bit low 13:07:56 younder: Gray streams aren't necessarily slow. 13:08:46 but what if there are two equally nested leaves on otherwise different subtrees.... if the sorting were done on the whole tree at once that would make for an ambiguity 13:08:52 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:16 so it's not simply finding the representation hat has the most open parens forward, though that would be a property of what we found, I think 13:09:28 younder: that may be a hunchentoot problem rather than an I/O problem. have you profiled your app ? 13:09:49 we still have to do it recursively, but I think that at each step, putting your best parens forward would do the trick! 13:09:59 fe[nl]ix: there is no app yet.. this is preliminary research 13:10:27 younder: in order to find out whether your performance problem stems from stream performance, try using a hunchentoot handler that returns an octet vector instead of a string 13:10:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:11:04 Ogedei: I think we've got something very similar to that 13:11:15 younder: you will still see chunga's performance if using chunked encoding, but you can avoid that, too, by switching off chunking. if performance is still too low for you, hunchentoot is at fault 13:11:32 cads: except you use a hugely complicated numbering scheme instead of just writing straight-forward strings? or did you drop the primes idea? 13:11:34 younder: hunchentoot is not optimized for high performance, so i'd not be very suproised. 13:12:17 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@wifi139-50.pubaccess.auth.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:12:33 yeah, we went with binary representation of open/close parentheses 13:12:38 -!- Quadrescence is now known as baitoladude 13:13:15 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:13:57 Ogedei, also, I feel like there still might be a loophole, so I'm going to try to formalize it 13:14:06 -!- baitoladude is now known as Quadrescence 13:14:17 anyways, thanks madnificent 13:14:28 this will be my first lisp program :D 13:14:54 and I'll credit you 13:15:11 -!- cads is now known as cadsAWAAY 13:15:16 see you guys later 13:16:30 FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 13:18:56 mkdon: mmh... the frequency question was asked yesterday, you will find solutions in the logs. But it looks like a whole classroom is looking for help here. 13:19:25 mkdon: maybe not yesterday. In the last few days. 13:20:33 addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 13:23:47 cadsAWAAY: back 13:23:56 away, probably was a hint 13:24:31 slyrus: I developing some mcclim apps. Not very actively these last few holiday weeks though .) 13:25:28 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 13:25:36 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 13:26:03 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:26 slyrus: did you see my email to hunchentoot-devel regarding the "not of type (MOD 1025)" crash? 13:28:01 Reaver_11 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:30:12 let's define L_0 as the set {(), ()(), ()()(), ()()()(), ...} and L_1 as the set containing all of L_0 as well the set of the results of all possible insertions of elements of L_0 into the slots between the parentheses of L_0 13:30:58 thus creating the set of all two level sub branches of a tree 13:31:10 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[away] 13:31:36 aa crap I gotta go 13:31:44 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:53 I'll flesh out the details in the mean time 13:34:17 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:36:44 fe[nl]ix and h4ns: looks like I wil have to take this up with Edi Weitz after all. That you for your effort 13:36:54 Hmm. hunchentoot doesn't handle as a POST parameter. :-( 13:37:40 younder: you can as well discuss with me, as i may be responsible for recent changes in hunchentoot that affect its performance. 13:38:07 younder: also, i can assure you that "hunchentoot is too slow" will not yield a useful reply by edi :) 13:38:42 z0d: what do you mean? the browser interprets the HTML, not Hunchentoot 13:38:50 I tried to be a bit more cotructive than that 13:38:54 "upgrade your computer" 13:39:15 constructive 13:39:16 Ogedei: I mean "submit" won't be in the parameter list if I press the button 13:39:37 i.e. (post-parameters) won't contain it 13:39:41 z0d: that's strange. is it in the HTTP response? (inspect with Firebug or so) 13:39:47 younder: where? 13:40:09 -!- stassats` is now known as stassats 13:41:12 Ogedei: HTTP _response_? 13:41:28 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:41:29 z0d: err, request 13:42:15 H4ns: the bivalen't streams bit. It was the original PG query which launced ACL to redesign it's stream system for the internet 13:43:12 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:43:47 younder: sorry, i must have missed that. was that to the tbnl-devel mailing list? 13:44:38 H4ns: Don't think so. I read about it on comp.lang.isp a while ago 13:45:21 younder: i think i am confused. did you make a proposal yet? 13:45:26 is there a way to turn off the GC on CCL ? 13:45:49 H4ns: no 13:46:12 H4ns: still researching 13:46:35 Ogedei: the *request* object doesn't have the submit parameter 13:47:02 z0d: I'm talking about the raw HTTP request, obviously. sniff the wire, or use firebug or tamper data or some other browser plugin 13:47:07 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:47:25 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:47:32 fe[nl]ix: maybe ccl::without-gcing ? 13:47:49 Ogedei: you mean that hunchentoot doesn't actually get the POST properly? 13:48:25 there is also with-deferred-gc 13:48:29 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:32 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:49:07 opt9 [n=user@59.7.205.138] has joined #lisp 13:49:53 z0d: that's what I'm trying to find out, whether you should be blaming hunchentoot, the browser, or yourself 13:49:54 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@207.pool85-49-175.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:42 Ogedei: that easy to find out. that's what libwww-perl is for <-: 13:51:28 i'd go with drakma, or netcat 13:51:58 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:52:17 benny [n=benny@i577A0E03.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:40 H4ns: perhaps Duane retting is the man to talk to (franz) 13:53:22 mega1 [n=mega@53d83040.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:53:43 younder: yes - but i guess you'll find him more responsive when you talk about allegroserve. 13:53:46 god, would I hate to be famous enough to have my name casually mis-dropped 13:53:48 he's called Rettig, without N 13:54:05 H4ns: indeed 13:54:25 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:55:10 younder: if you need a lot of performance, maybe going for allegro and paserve is a good idea. that way, you'll get franz to support you with any upcoming performance issues. 13:55:56 H4ns: Normally I would. But the rest of the system is written in LispWorks. 13:56:07 and then you can just use non-portable aserve, which is more actively maintained 13:56:34 younder: ah, and your performance problem is actually on lispworks with hunchentoot? 13:56:55 younder: you'll propably find edi to be willing to work for you in that setting 13:57:01 -!- afa [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has quit [] 13:57:02 Quite francly the portable-allegroserve performance sucks. 13:57:23 H4ns: My thoughts exactly 13:57:34 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 13:58:50 i've little experience with portable aserve, but the regular aserve came out at least four times as fast as hunchentoot in my tests 13:59:09 Under ACL yes.. 13:59:57 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-108.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:00:05 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:00:11 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:00:54 how to convert a list into a string? 14:01:04 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-73-33.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 14:01:50 mkdon: a list of characters ? 14:02:15 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:02:18 <_3b> format nil, coerce, princ-to-string, with-output-to-string, ... 14:02:18 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:02:19 a list of words 14:02:20 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:02:49 (with-output-to-string (steam) (dolist (element list) (princ element stream))) 14:03:02 just like last week 14:03:05 ;) 14:03:18 <_3b> (format nil "~{~a~}" list) 14:03:20 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:36 also works.. 14:04:46 (reduce (lambda (x y) (concatenate 'string x y)) '("abc" "bdc" "dfdf")) 14:04:56 hi Fade 14:04:58 hi Fare 14:05:19 Ogedei: maybe it's a HTML stuff, but with it works fine 14:05:27 thanks 14:05:30 <_3b> hopefully format or w-o-t-s would be more efficiient than reduce 'concatenate :) 14:06:07 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 14:06:19 z0d: i suspect Hunchentoot can't even see the difference between parameters coming from regular inputs and from buttons, so I guess the HTML must be the problem 14:08:06 Ogedei: it can, use "name" 14:08:08 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@207.pool85-49-175.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:09:43 In terms of HTML server 1.1 compliance Huncentoot is quite good 14:09:57 younder: they are all just parameters I mean, so you have to know what the form looked like to spot the button 14:10:01 younder: you mean HTTP ? 14:10:17 HTTP of cource 14:10:25 sorry 14:11:10 *younder* hides his face in shame 14:13:02 (format would be faster than (w-o-t-s (dolist (element (princ wouldn't it? 14:13:49 <_3b> mkdon: depends on implementation 14:14:06 clisp 14:14:12 mkdon: measure 14:14:17 can someone with a LispWorks prompt in front of them test for me whether (defstruct a b) (slot-value (make-a :b 10) 'b) works there? 14:14:17 not neccesairly. format compiles to basic instructions like the ones I wrote. 14:14:38 yeah i considered that and became curious 14:15:03 <_3b> format could compile to anything that produces the right results 14:15:09 mkdon: In clisp yes 14:15:59 Ogedei: works here 14:16:13 stassats: many thanks 14:17:18 On some system the format string is interpreted at runtime. In which case it is much slower 14:18:36 mkdon: is your bottleneck in that operation? 14:19:30 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:20:36 -!- Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [] 14:21:12 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:35 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:46 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:21:56 robyonrails [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:22:02 kiuma [n=kiuma@host75-233-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:22:29 hello lispers 14:23:10 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 14:24:06 if FORMAT is your speed bottleneck, you have a problem. 14:24:13 hi kiuma 14:25:14 hello kiuma 14:25:36 Ogedei: Don't have to. It is standard CL. Don't use slot-value on a defstruct attribute, use the assigned function 14:25:59 -!- def [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:06 Fare: depending on how it is written, formats can be partially compiled (at least, I saw something like that flash by on the commit messages). So it could speed it up (I haven't seen the discuttion, ignore this when it is crap) 14:26:28 younder: every implementation I have access to handles it, though, and it makes my code much more general 14:26:37 hello, I spoke to my friends @ byte-code. I'll stop a moment with claw-cms development and I'll add templating feature to claw-html 14:26:57 s/hello/madnificent/ 14:27:01 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0E6C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:04 madnificent, sure, but still, if your speed bottleneck is format, maybe you should be using something else. 14:27:08 Ogedei: Then use only classes 14:27:20 and if it isn't, why care if it's interpreted or compiled? 14:27:26 kiuma: (byte-code ?): aka: you're still working on claw, but you're building the framework now, instead of the cms? 14:27:37 younder: thanks for the advise, but you don't really know what I'm trying to do 14:27:48 s/advise/advice/ 14:28:14 Ogedei: Though it is not unsuspected to find this behaviour. It is bad style 14:28:23 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has left #lisp 14:28:24 Fare: any good alternatives if you'd need to print keywords, symbols and strings? (This is a personal inquiry, as it might be time-consuming in my html-thingy) 14:28:28 younder: I'm adding a #+, of course 14:28:40 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:01 Ogedei: of cource? that changes everything. 14:29:13 younder: cheers 14:29:14 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:16 stassats: nop 14:29:39 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:29:40 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:29:41 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:53 Ogedei: You now have to wory about what is available at read time. befor things have been daclared in the fle 14:29:55 file 14:31:02 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.69.18] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:31:23 madnificent, yes I'm extending claw-html (and www.byte-code.it) 14:31:38 is there any html parser around ? 14:31:59 kiuma: closure-html 14:32:06 kiuma: parser, or outputter? 14:32:20 get nxml 14:32:32 Gorgoroth [i=Gorgorot@195-132-141-240.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:32:54 parser, they asked to me to be able to put html and perse it enriched by claw 14:33:12 antoni [n=antoni@171.pool85-53-18.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:33:32 and cl-xml 14:33:32 madnificent: there are many alternatives to FORMAT. For HTML, I hacked something based on araneida's thingie. 14:33:50 but there's a nice OUT or MSG macro out there 14:33:53 kiuma: ah, I've been discussing that with a friend :) sxml was extremely handy for me (but that's more general) 14:34:08 Fade: cl-who 14:34:18 kiuma: xmls, sorry 14:35:06 Fare: Drew McDermott's ? 14:35:09 Fare: I'll check it some day :) 14:35:21 a xml parser hardly seems more general than a html parser 14:35:29 kiuma: I simply went for the easiest solution, not the most performant one 14:36:12 -!- ryepup1 is now known as ryepup 14:36:23 jsnell: Show me a HTML parser in Lisp with the capabilleties of a XML parser 14:37:06 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:37:13 Xach: vecto-based coffee mugs came out well: http://picasaweb.google.com/hmfullen/WeddingTheOfficialPhotos#5289147381806242562 14:38:11 that's not the way to show something is more general than another thing 14:38:14 are there any decent manuals that exist for CL that compare to perldoc or php manual? if not, where is the best place to look? 14:38:15 ryepup: Xach is not on this channel anymore... you can /msg him, I guess 14:38:28 a html parsers is capable of parsing html 14:38:33 a xml parser isn't 14:38:38 ryepup: nice 14:38:40 madnificent: thanks, I just noticed that 14:38:42 jsnell: No, but XHTML is more practical 14:39:03 so it seems pretty lame for you morons to be suggesting that a person who needs to parse html use an xml parser instead 14:39:09 ryepup: oh, it are the hearts of your wedding? 14:39:20 mkdon: http://weitz.de/documentation-template/ 14:39:42 jsoft: No you should use a SGML parse with is more general again 14:39:48 madnificent: yes, see http://ryepup.unwashedmeme.com/blog/2008/12/02/logo-for-wedding-favors/ for details 14:39:50 parser 14:40:04 fe[nl]ix, yes 14:40:08 ryepup: I saw the post on planet.lisp.org :) 14:40:42 Fare: have you ever read its code ? it's awful 14:40:47 mkdon: maybe you need the hyperspec -- search 'lisp hyperspec', use c-c c-d h from slime 14:40:48 ryepup: congrats 14:40:49 jsnell: You have a tendency of becombing a bit pedantic at times.. 14:41:06 madnificent: thanks 14:41:32 <_3b> younder: this channel likes pedantic 14:41:45 more pedantic! 14:42:00 minion: chant ! 14:42:00 MORE PEDANTIC 14:42:30 cheers 14:42:38 <_3b> (and wasn't a style thing to use the most specific tool, not the most general one?) 14:43:04 _3b: how about: the clearest tool? 14:43:16 <_3b> madnificent: that works too 14:44:03 minion: chant! 14:44:04 MORE PEDANTIC 14:44:13 less chant 14:44:25 _3b: in most cases, it will result in what you said. But your option seems to be a guide towards that. Which makes mine more general, which again brings us to the same question as we've been willing to answer. [...] Out of stack 14:44:36 an IRC bot.. 14:44:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:45:15 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D4F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:45:46 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:46:12 younder: he's not a bot, he's electronically composed 14:46:50 whatever 14:47:04 -!- FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:49:30 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:41 Fare, fe[nl]ix: adeht has been writing a slightly tweaked OUT macro from scratch. 14:50:02 cool 14:52:51 steevy [i=user@dslb-084-059-197-104.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:28 i guess i just don't know where to look in the HyperSpec, so how do you check if test was passed into a bla call where bla= (defun bla (&key test) .. 14:53:49 just see if its nil? 14:53:52 hey there - is there any way to use network services with lisp? 14:54:05 steevy: yes 14:54:15 steevy: what kind of network services :P 14:54:20 steevy: try http://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/ 14:54:55 mkdon: (&key (foo 10 foo-passed)) 14:54:58 mkdon: no, use &key (test nil test-provided-p) 14:55:26 Fare: could you subscribe qitab-devel to gmane, please? 14:56:05 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:56:13 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:56:24 thanks - madnificent; communicating with webservers (http) would be perfect but just communicating between two or more pcs would also be nice 14:56:41 minion: tell steevy about drakma 14:56:42 steevy: have a look at drakma: Drakma is a fully-featured Common Lisp web client library that knows how to handle HTTP/1.1 chunking, persistent connections, re-usable sockets, SSL, continuable uploads, cookies, and other things. http://www.cliki.net/drakma 14:56:47 minion: tell steevy about hunchentoot 14:56:47 steevy: look at hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a web server written in Common Lisp and at the same time a toolkit for building dynamic websites. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 14:56:49 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 14:57:25 hey, thank you all very much - will read the next few hours i think :) 14:57:37 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:54 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:37 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C4DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:19 fe[nl]ix: where abouts can i read about provided-p in hyperspec? 14:59:54 My out-of-head guess would be 3.4.1 14:59:57 clhs 3.4.1 14:59:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm 15:00:13 hah, not bad 15:00:30 cheers tcr 15:01:32 tcr: how do I do that? 15:02:38 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 15:02:40 Fare: Visit gmane.org, and click on subscribe. The subscription process is very lightweight, will take you 5mins. 15:02:40 "supplied-p-parameter is treated as for &optional parameters: it is bound to true if there was a matching argument pair, and to false otherwise" so i just check supplied-p instead? 15:02:56 tcr: should I do the same for xcvb-devel ? 15:02:58 mkdon: Yes, it's also available for &key parameters 15:03:23 Fare: I'd favor that. Making them available via gmane makes it very convenient to read them, as you don't have to subscribe. 15:04:01 tcr: sorry, i meant, do i just check supplied-p-whatever for nil? 15:04:32 mkdon: NIL in Lisp is a symbol, the empty list, and the boolean value for false 15:04:43 mkdon: You can just do (if supplied-p ...) 15:06:46 that's what I'd planned, thanks 15:08:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:12:20 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 15:12:36 Fare: When you submitted the data, you'll get a subscription confirmation two, or three days later. The gmane group will be created upon the first mail that is sent to the list after the subscription. 15:13:27 mrSpec pasted "Search function - structures" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73322 15:13:40 could You take a look ? 15:13:49 i've written search function, but when I use (search :name 'foo :surname 'bar) 15:13:57 I have all structures with name foo OR surname bar instead of record with name foo AND surname bar 15:13:57 -!- steevy [i=user@dslb-084-059-197-104.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:14:03 steevy [i=user@dslb-084-059-220-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:46 do You have any idea how to quickly improve this function ? my only idea is to make a lot of ifs :\ 15:14:57 spec[away]: You can't assign to RESULT without first establishing a binding for it. 15:15:16 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.114.82] has joined #lisp 15:15:35 can't ? 15:15:44 hmm but it is working... 15:16:04 That's due to a feature of your Lisp implementation. 15:16:18 ah 15:17:08 spec[away]: And there's no need to traverse through *DB* three times. Just do it once. 15:17:09 how should I change this ? 15:17:22 what group name? qitab-devel and xcvb-devel ? 15:17:44 Fare: qitab.devel, xcvb.devel 15:18:41 is this put-a-space-beteen-the-question-mark-and-its-preceding-word day? :-) 15:18:56 tcr: gmane.comp.lang.lisp.qitab.devel ? 15:19:11 Fare: gmane.lisp.qitab.devel 15:20:18 luis: it's a French typographical convention 15:21:11 ok, and gmane.lisp.xcvb.devel 15:21:48 luis: s/space/unbreakable-space/ 15:22:14 we're tough. Our spaces are unbreakable. 15:22:17 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 15:22:45 how else would we be so good at selling hot air? 15:23:15 Xof: interesting. Portuguese follows a lot of French convention. Not this one. 15:24:48 ¿and why not? 15:25:14 willb [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:25:57 do the portuguese use ¿ like the spaniards do? 15:26:03 Nope. 15:26:12 tcr, I think I have an idea how to correct it. I'll try do it. 15:26:39 brb 15:29:02 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 15:29:04 ¿ is a good idea. you know in advance what type of sentence will follow 15:34:30 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.114.82] has left #lisp 15:35:09 And also, you can mix questions and assertions in the same sentence. 15:35:21 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.235.74] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:35:52 I assert that the sky is blue and ask you if it is not so? 15:36:00 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:36:02 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:05 ah, not english :) 15:36:54 El cielo esta azul pero ¿comó lo ves tú? 15:38:08 clear 15:38:17 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:38:17 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:38:24 Color blind? 15:38:53 Zhivago: the question begins only after the '¿' 15:39:31 In English, gramatically you would have to translate as: The sky is blue. How do you see it? 15:39:55 Yes, I realized belatedly that you were talking about another language. 15:40:07 Is the creator of closure-html here ? 15:40:36 *_8david* looks around for gilberth 15:40:39 ryepup2 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:43 <_8david> kiuma: no :-) 15:40:48 <_8david> (can I help you?) 15:40:56 sure 15:41:02 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:41:22 _8david, I'm adapting closure-htlm to generate claw-html forms 15:43:13 <_8david> okay 15:43:46 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:44:28 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:44:31 afa [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has joined #lisp 15:45:10 kiuma pasted "closure-html extending problem:" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73326 15:45:22 _8david, there 15:46:54 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:07 good morning all 15:47:10 jewel [n=jewel@iburst-41-213-8-213.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:47:18 use "cons" instead of "list"? 15:48:27 <_8david> yeah, the (push this (cddr parent)) part is probably what fails when he does that 15:49:00 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:49:04 it's good to know that no matter how complicated the library, the users fail to do list manipulation right 15:49:08 _8david, ok thx I'll try 15:50:19 _8david, even (push this (chtml::stack handler)) somewhat fails :( 15:50:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:43 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:50:58 code somewhat failing, nice one! 15:51:21 jdz, glad you enjoy it :P 15:51:26 <_8david> kiuma: might be easier to leave START-ELEMENT as is, and change END-ELEMENT to do (SETF (CDR CURRENT) (APPEND (CADR CURRENT) (REVERSE (CDDR CURRENT)))) instead of (SETF (CDDR CURRENT) ...) 15:52:13 _8david, ok I try again 15:52:52 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@239.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:54:40 <_8david> alternatively, blame emarsden. I think LHTML syntax was originally what you want, and he changed to more MORE PARENS for some reason. 15:55:38 foof` [n=user@c-68-36-145-206.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:43 Anyone know if there's a LispNYC meeting on Tuesday? 15:55:46 -!- foof` is now known as foof 15:55:58 _8david, thanks a lot !!! A LOT! 15:56:46 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2D8D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:28 -!- ryepup2 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:58:09 -!- ryepup1 [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:59:40 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb353d.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 16:01:25 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go home"] 16:03:23 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 16:05:50 -!- nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:26 nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:30 could the first argument to make-instance ever be (quote ) ? 16:06:45 iow could a class be named (quote foo), not foo, (quote foo) 16:07:46 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 16:08:00 the only defined methods on make-instance are symbol and class 16:08:18 similarly, find-class is only defined to work on symbols 16:08:40 it's possible that implementations might decide to play silly buggers, but I doubt it 16:08:40 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:08:56 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:04 thanks. 16:09:36 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:10 md` [n=user@85-135-245-206.adsl.slovanet.sk] has joined #lisp 16:12:19 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 16:12:30 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CD3B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:47 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:13:00 Greetings! 16:13:29 Is there a standard way of referring to Common Lisp in documentation? 16:13:32 keyword arguments in (1) should occur pairwise, what does that mean? (tried doing the &key (blah nil nlah-supplied-p) 16:14:52 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:12 When referring to commercial software in documentation, the owner of the software often has some statement to the effect "reference to this software in documentation should be like FOO." I'm trying to be unambiguous in my documentation. 16:15:30 minion: clhs 16:15:31 clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 16:15:44 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:58 tmh: you can refer to the ANSI standards document 16:16:16 -!- mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:43 stassats: where abouts in hs? 16:17:01 nevermind 16:17:03 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:16 Something like Pitman and Chapman (eds), "Information Technology -- Programming Language -- Common Lisp", INCITS 226--1994, ANSI (1994) 16:17:58 Xof: Definitely for the bibliography, but in the actual discussion I can't decide if I should always use Common Lisp, or state in the beginning that Lisp refers to Common Lisp and use Lisp. 16:18:50 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:19:18 tmh: I'd say Common Lisp 16:19:48 -!- kuhzoo1 is now known as kuhzoo 16:21:30 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:21:44 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:23:04 oudeis [n=oudeis@217.194.205.196] has joined #lisp 16:23:26 lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:23:53 ll 16:24:08 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:25:09 tmh: if you're using latex, simply make a macro for it, then you can refer to Common Lisp in your text by \cl (or whatever it was in tex), 16:25:46 tmh: later you can then change the name by whatever you like, you can then evaluate if the eventual read becomes too long because of the longer name. 16:26:51 madnificent: Yeah, I use LaTeX and had planned on making a command. You're right, I should just slap something on the command and change it later when I figure out what I want. 16:28:55 madnificent: I think it would also be nice to have a lisp package for LaTeX with things like defun environments, etc. 16:29:05 any one know pages directly relating to use of supplied-p ? (defun asdf (&key (test nil test-supplied-p)) (if test-supplied-p (print test))) (asdf 1) 16:29:13 -!- foof [n=user@c-68-36-145-206.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:18 just gives the error 16:29:26 tmh: have you looked at things like slatex? 16:29:31 tmh: like cl-typesetting, but with more bollocks? 16:29:56 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 16:29:59 Hmm, I've not looked at either slatex or cl-typesetting. 16:30:03 mkdon: I'm going to take a guess at this one, and say that you probably have to use the form for the name wherein you specify what the actual keyword symbol is. 16:30:42 if you're doing something simple, Exscribe can help. 16:31:06 Ah, no, not like slatex or cl-typesetting. When I said package, I meant as in \usepackage{lisp} in my document preamble. 16:31:09 nyef: doh. thanks 16:31:15 _8david, (chtml:parse "

nada

" (claw-html::make-claw-html-builder)) now returns (html> ....) . I want this to be the body of a form without calling eval each time ? 16:32:07 I've also been using noweb (literate programming) for one of my projects. It works pretty well, but I would like more pretty-printing than I'm getting at the moment. 16:33:06 tmh: I'm rather intrigued by cl-typesetting. But I'm affraid to do a project in it, for I rarely ever have 'extra' time when I want something finished 16:33:20 madnificent, any idea ? 16:33:51 <_8david> kiuma: sounds like an FAQ regarding compilation phases and macros 16:34:03 tmh: don't know of anything like that. With those two exsisting, lispers that need it might feel more comfortable using them, so it might even not exist. 16:34:06 <_8david> if you explain your "requirements" better, maybe someone will care to offer solutions 16:34:59 kiuma: I don't know chtml, I've only used xmls (and that, I only used once) 16:35:28 _8david, in claw-html I'm adding a templating system 16:35:45 <_8david> madnificent: he doesn't have a chtml question any more at this point, it's an EVAL/COMPILE/DEFMACRO/whatever newbie-type question 16:35:46 madnificent: I'm pretty comfortable with LaTeX and it is used by most journals that I have interesting in submitting articles to, so I have little motivation to switch. I just want a little more pretty printing and I can develop that myself. 16:36:36 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-65.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:36:52 _8david: but I have no idea whatsover what chtml:parse returns, nor wahat the extra function-call is doing there. 16:37:02 madnificent: I've also been pretty satisfied with my literate programming experiment. What I'd really like is an editor that facilitated literate programming with a common lisp back-end for code and a LaTeX back-end for document generation. 16:37:31 tmh: wait, I'm not.. ahm... you may do it in latex. I like it too. I wasn't trying to convert you or anything. sorry 16:38:06 madnificent: I didn't take it that way at all, I was just justifying being lazy. :-) 16:38:25 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:38:27 _8david, If possible I'd avoid macro (...if possible). the page class has a medhod that is bage-body, page-body sould call the form generated by the parser. If I call aval this will work as an interpreter. I'd like this to beave in compiled style 16:38:50 _8david, and yes, it should be a newbie question sorry 16:38:54 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:38:55 please feel free to take the time to proofread 16:39:07 -!- kenjin [n=kenjin@221.162.108.193] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:39:38 tmh: make it \usepackage{common-lisp} or such 16:39:48 I missed some h :) sorry 16:40:06 ah well, for submitting papers, I don't think you'll get it done in any other way. You're the first one that makes me think of that, and it is a real issue. Perhaps I should upgrade my latex-skillset, instead of learning something truely extensible. FWIW, if you want literate programming with a lisp-backend, talk to gigamonkey. He was doing something like that, I think. 16:40:30 Fare: Yeah, or \usepackage[common]{lisp} or \usepackage[scheme]{lisp}, not sure if there is much to be gained from that, though. 16:40:48 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:02 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-21-82-64-70-92.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:23 madnificent: I envision taking phemlock + AXWEB + some LaTeX Foo and getting a sweet literate programming editor. 16:41:43 Brad_ [n=chatzill@174-147-204-17.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:57 -!- addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 16:42:01 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:42:17 tmh: how about: emacs + slime + cl-typesetting + micro-framework. It is easier to integrate, and with a minimal amount of luck, clearer to use 16:43:04 madnificent: Well, I wasn't aware of cl-typesetting before now and I'm googling micro-framework. 16:43:06 or texmacs? 16:43:40 Fare: I've never taken an honest look at texmacs. 16:44:13 -!- mulander [n=user@80.51.122.72] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:44:22 mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 16:44:23 My idea for phemlock + AXWEB is that both are in CL. You know, one language to rule them all syndrome. 16:45:09 -!- steevy [i=user@dslb-084-059-220-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 16:45:26 ... I keep waiting to hear about either the Two Ring or the Other Ring. 16:45:36 addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 16:45:59 madnificent: Where can I find a reference to micro-framework, Google returns a bunch of .NET stuff. 16:46:31 Hi, I am optimizing our application in SBCL, and I don't understand why SBCL is uncertain about type of the slot of CLOS instance, even when the CLOS class has a proper type declaration on that slot. Do I need to declaim something to tell SBCL to take the CLOS :type keywords into account? 16:46:34 tmh: I think he was using the term to describe a 'small' framework 16:46:52 mulander: Ah 16:46:52 tmh: not an existing product - just a concept of combining emacs/cl-typesetting 16:47:12 tmh: it is a name I use... for something minor 16:47:21 md`: The reason why is because the :type declaration could be overridden by a subclass. 16:47:32 As such, it can't be safely optimized for. 16:47:39 madnificent: Okay, just call me Mr. Literal. 16:47:41 and because the class could be redefined 16:47:56 Right, that too. 16:47:57 (unlike structures) 16:47:58 so, can I tell SBCL that the class is sealed, or "finished"? 16:48:07 No, but you can use a structure instead. 16:48:11 tmh: as most frameworks in lisp are simply too small to be named framework. And it is my mistake just as well, I might as well be the only one to use the term (and I would've looked it up too, probably) 16:48:23 nikodemus has done some work on adding sealing support 16:48:44 ok, I will check that 16:49:12 but I don't know if it would've helped with this particular case (there are quite a lot of things in clos that could be sealed independently of each other) 16:49:39 _8david, sorry I'm a bit tired today, my baby kept me up all the night, the anwer to my question is probably (eval `(defun bla-bla () ,(parse ...))) 16:49:51 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 16:49:52 *answer 16:50:00 so then, what's the purpose of :type keywords in defclass? documentation only? 16:50:05 jsnell: that would remove the slow part of CLOS, right? (the lookup) 16:50:27 md`: sbcl can do type checks 16:50:38 md`: It's implementation specific, so you'd have to check the implementation. 16:50:41 md`: sbcl only uses :type for type checking in safe code 16:50:47 md`: the compiler can use it :) (as checks and/or for performance, but it is not obliged to do so) 16:51:15 ah, ok. thanks 16:51:41 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 16:51:49 *Fare* hopes to cut from the world and enter deep hack mode this afternoon on xcvb. Any last recommendation about it? 16:52:00 madnificent: it would depend heavily on what kind of a seal was done 16:52:35 for example if you promise that you're never redefining a class, it won't help with reducing dispatch overhead 16:52:35 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:35 jsnell: can you shortly describe what nikodemos was doing then? 16:52:39 are we back to sealing in CLOS ? 16:52:43 *discussing 16:52:47 aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-12-235.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:09 jsnell: how about: if you say that every method/class is fully defined and will never ever change anymore 16:53:16 if you promise you won't redefine the class, subclass it, and not define any new methods on some generic function, you could technically inline the function 16:54:10 jsnell: we have several such classes, how do I declare such properties? 16:54:12 isn't there also the issue of slot value (e.g. simple arrays) 16:54:15 ? 16:54:50 nurv101 [n=askmefor@81.193.4.245] has joined #lisp 16:55:17 if you could make it all fixed, you could do typechecking and all the funny things. But that will probably take too much time to build 16:55:25 as far as I remember that's the main thing that's optimized in sbcl head. if you promise to never redefine a class, it can remove an indirection from slot value lookup 16:55:55 that rings a bell, yeah 16:56:01 but it'd probably be better to ask on sbcl-users, I don't really remember what currently exists, how to use it, or what's on the horizon :-) 16:56:28 jsnell: ok, thanks 16:57:35 err... sbcl-help 16:57:43 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:58:21 it's good to know that there is some effort going in that direction 16:58:22 jsnell: I think you missed dynbind.c when adding bind sentinels 16:58:37 ca all 16:58:57 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@host75-233-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:01:09 hmm... I'm not sure anything should be done there 17:01:50 how often are the c versions used, anyway? 17:03:21 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@cl-76.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 17:03:23 and at least unbind_to_here seems to be correct? 17:03:46 -!- a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:52 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:05:50 jsnell: you are right, _I_ missed the test for unbound marker 17:06:08 if I am subscribed to sbcl-devel, would I get a reply if I send a question to sbcl-help? 17:06:42 or do I need to subscribe there as well? 17:07:31 leo2007 [n=leo@121.207.29.235] has joined #lisp 17:09:15 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:27 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 17:10:10 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:39 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 17:11:49 Of the people here that have studied lisps and specifically both common lisp and scheme and have a good idea of what both languages have to offer, what are some personal reasons and considerations for choosing one above the other for various tasks? Please, I don't want to incite flaming, but I'd like to know, maybe about pet peeves in one language or another, or maybe about this or that feature or library that makes one particularly swee 17:11:49 t to use for some objective, or maybe just a wholistic kind of 'feeling that I get' aspect about one. 17:12:02 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:12:11 god I hope that's a productive question... 17:12:24 *cadsAWAAY* gets ready to flee if it's not 17:12:37 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:12:55 cadsAWAAY: You should really google that topic, it is a dead horse beaten into a grease spot. 17:13:25 cadsAWAAY: Besides, at the end of the day, only you can answer that question for yourself. 17:14:08 cadsAWAAY: look at Your problem domain. Your requirments for development,deployment tools and Your expertise in both then select based on those facts. 17:14:13 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:14:55 cadsAWAAY: in example when developing a commercial application having a company providing support + efficient implementation + ide and training may favor one over the other. 17:14:56 cadsAWAAY: But if you want me to invest as much time in the answer as you invested in the question, I'll tell you to go install PLT Scheme. Based on what you described as your problem, it will solve everything. 17:15:22 -!- jewel [n=jewel@iburst-41-213-8-213.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:15:39 What I want to get out of this is not something to help me make up my mind, just personal reason from (not that I can really call you guys this yet:) peers. 17:16:19 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 17:16:21 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:46 just send $10 to www.common-lisp.net and receive your decoder ring. 17:17:17 -!- Brad_ [n=chatzill@174-147-204-17.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 17:17:42 Or collect 11 cap'n crunch box-tops and send them in 17:17:58 cadsAWAAY: i use both scheme and common lisp, scheme for small scripts, and CL for large programs 17:18:54 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:19:00 _3b: ping 17:19:06 -!- Gorgoroth [i=Gorgorot@195-132-141-240.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 17:19:16 Hah, this is the best line I read in a while, "The following explains the full subset of options available for configuration:". FULL SUBSET. 17:19:27 tmh: hehe 17:19:46 For another (more naive) example, I play with CL to eventually get at ACL and CL's other libraries , and scheme because functions and variables share the same namespace and SICP is written for scheme, and in both I'd like to learn about macro systems, those are some of my reasons. 17:20:18 <_3b> tcr: pong 17:20:38 cadsAWAAY: See, you already have the answer. Use both, gain experience, apply that experience to choosing one for future projects. 17:21:00 It's rare to see this: and scheme because functions and 17:21:05 variables share the same namespace 17:21:10 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:22 as a positive. (rather than argued as a net win) 17:21:54 cadsAWAAY: if you try to learn both at once you may get yourself in a bit of a muddle 17:22:04 alex84 [n=zeronull@chello084114039189.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:22:45 H4ns: yes, I did see (unsigned-byte 1024) email. I can't remember if you ever tracked down the root cause though. 17:22:52 schme: that's good to hear 17:23:30 hefner: did you blame _8david for the list box brokenness? 17:23:40 and good morning folks 17:23:48 Salex, from maths and functional languages I'm used to thinking of functions and variables as the same immutable thing 17:23:55 slyrus_: it appears to be a file descriptor leak of some sort, and sbcl on freebsd can only handle 1024 file descriptors. crashes hard if any fd is larger than that 17:24:33 so it seems more natural for them to share the same namespace 17:24:45 _3b: Do you know of an action script parser in CL? 17:25:00 slyrus_: Ya.. the project is still out on xmas break though. And I assume that I will soonish redesign the whole thing. I'm not really a CLIM master, and everynow and then I read a new section of the specs and I redesign shit :) 17:25:22 But tmh is right when he says that only my experience will tell if one feels more natural than the other in a lisp. 17:25:30 cadsAWAAY: right, except it leads to problems, because in maths for example, we have all sorts of nice notations for similarly named things 17:25:37 schme: yeah, I pretty much feel the same way :) 17:25:39 not true in ascii 17:25:39 <_3b> tcr: don't think i've seen any, haven't really looked though 17:26:29 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@81.193.4.245] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:27:29 salex: one can use unicode 17:27:38 (and also we commonly use the `same' names in different contexts, and let the context sort it out) 17:27:56 slyrus_: tentatively, yeah :) 17:28:13 stassats: yes, that doesn't actually solve the problem, but adds some flexibility 17:28:42 -!- addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 17:28:44 It's true, I don't think I'm ready to write code where functions can mutate, and having mutable variables and immutable functions in the same namespace could be like sewing my foot to my ass.. 17:29:12 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:33 hehe, I'm not entirely sure I'd ever want to write code where functions are mutable 17:29:37 i.e. usable code? 17:30:03 mutable variables and immutable functions in the same namespace ..? Isn't that what everyone does? :) 17:30:16 Well 'cep THOSEGUYS. 17:31:21 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:33:14 If all variables were essentially immutable functions which took zero arguments and had no side effects, would the same problems crop up, salex? 17:36:48 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 17:38:36 Anyways, that's a minor personal research topic and not all that important, I'm learning to learn. 17:38:37 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@207.pool85-49-175.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:38:48 Thanks for the input, all :) 17:39:05 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@207.pool85-49-175.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:41:04 -!- opt9 [n=user@59.7.205.138] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:41:25 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 17:41:47 _3b: Ok. How's your compiler going? 17:43:02 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:44:07 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 17:45:59 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:57 -!- jamief [n=jamie@158.223.53.104] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:47:18 With parenscript how do you use a lisp variable from inside ps-inline? 17:47:33 opt9 [n=user@59.7.205.138] has joined #lisp 17:50:04 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:15 -!- opt9 [n=user@59.7.205.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:30 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:51:42 -!- aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-12-235.acanac.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:51:52 aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-12-235.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:54 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 17:55:44 egn_ [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 17:57:23 hernia [n=chatzill@189.120.162.44] has joined #lisp 17:58:35 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:58:59 -!- Reaver_11 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:01:43 -!- afa [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has quit [] 18:03:04 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:03:16 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:14 bugger it, I found you can use the lisp function but then it doesn't find my variable, I guess because it's not global.. anyway in the end I just wrote the javascript 18:05:27 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 18:06:01 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:02 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:06:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:34 <_3b> tcr: working on rewriting it so it can be smart enough to handle closures, and exceptions and such 18:06:48 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 18:07:33 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@207.pool85-49-175.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:27 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:38 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 18:09:50 vy [n=user@88.229.116.193] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 vy pasted "flexi-input-stream" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73334 18:11:21 Hi! Could anybody help me with the above flexi-streams problem? 18:12:37 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 18:14:01 Gracenotes [n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has joined #lisp 18:16:15 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:19:24 josemanuel [n=josemanu@240.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:20:59 vy: there are several problems with that code 18:21:15 vy: my sbcl says # is not a binary input stream. 18:22:04 vy: first, you should call `flexi-streams:make-flexi-stream' rather than plain `make-instance', and sceond, only a binary or bivalent stream should be passed to that function 18:22:46 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.129.171] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:22:48 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:24:33 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@207.pool85-49-175.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 18:25:43 Ugh! My SLIME doesn't complete flexi-streams' symbols in a package using :cl and :flexi-streams. Awesome! 18:26:42 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 18:27:05 -!- gilberth [n=gilbert@d076093.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:27:43 vy: flexi-streams has to be loaded 18:28:31 z0d: It is loaded, but SLIME insists on assuming it isn't. 18:29:39 Is it possible to make flexi-stream trigger a function/error/signal when BOUND is exceeded? 18:37:03 milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.116] has joined #lisp 18:38:06 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:10 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@240.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 18:39:18 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-c5ea29f8859c7fb4] has joined #lisp 18:40:09 could you give me link to good Emacs tutorial? or just first from google ? i think it is time to learn how to use it. 18:41:06 start emacs, type C-h t 18:41:17 emacs self documents. 18:41:30 ok 18:41:33 thx 18:43:14 mrSpec: also emacs lisp tutorial 18:43:22 -!- vy [n=user@88.229.116.193] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:44:01 vy [n=user@88.229.116.193] has joined #lisp 18:44:18 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:44:22 Hrm... Yep it was a SLIME bug. Updating to the latest CVS revision solved the problem. 18:44:24 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:46:16 H4ns: Would flexi-streams team welcome a patch introducing a new (function) field to FLEXI-INPUT-STREAM class getting triggered when BOUND is exceeded? 18:46:51 vy: you need to ask edi, but if it is a small patch, i'd think he'd accept it. 18:46:58 thx schme 18:47:16 joachifm [n=joachim@193.157.245.20] has joined #lisp 18:47:47 H4ns: Don't you think such an approach would be more functional than wrapping FLEXI-INPUT-STREAM in another gray stream to be able to limit read size? 18:49:53 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:50:42 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:58 -!- moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:52:02 somebody here was asking if a lambda-gtk GUI looks "native" on win32, and I told him it was so, with the stock win32.gtkrc 18:52:02 -!- egn_ [i=tux@nodes.fm] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:52:38 but I must add that there no more "native looking" win32 apps. There is some generic accepted appearance, but the gui look and feel is muddied with more recent stuff 18:53:02 microsoft's own WPF does not look like win32 native apps. 18:53:08 H4ns: Do you know http://marijn.haverbeke.nl/st-json/ ? 18:54:03 fusss: yep, MS seems to have given up on a native look, as such 18:54:18 for the better 18:54:29 Cronos [n=a@5ad08fe6.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:41 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:53 I still prefer the 'classic' XP skin 18:55:04 egn_ [i=tux@nodes.fm] has joined #lisp 18:55:23 and most cutting-edge desktop app look like web-apps anyway. They're all heavily themed. 18:55:35 waterh [n=waterh@114.143.39.143] has joined #lisp 18:55:43 z0d: still use classic XP but half of the software I use doesn't look win32 native 18:55:45 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.116] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:55:58 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 18:56:15 fusss: which lisp do you use? 18:56:15 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:56:58 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:23 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:57:28 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:57:52 skype, thunderbird, firefox, pidgin, the entire Adobe suite, open office, paint.net, opera, copernic, filezilla, povray .. these are just from my menu! 18:58:50 povray? wow 18:58:55 fusss: google's chrome too 18:59:04 then we have next-gen apps written in AIR, Silverlight, and hopefully Titanium. none will ever look "native". 19:00:19 emacs looks native for me 19:00:23 gbuick [n=dave@c-98-228-30-254.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:35 -!- gbuick [n=dave@c-98-228-30-254.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:00:58 yep, a text-area looks the same on every platform. 19:02:18 Funny, firefox doesn't look native to me on winxp. 19:02:58 Mainly on the strength of the appearance and behavior of the menu bar. 19:03:22 *fusss* uses emacs with no menu or toolbar 19:03:54 Hey, is it possible to persuade emacs to not start up with those? 19:04:09 duh, yes 19:04:17 I know that it's possible to disable them in .emacs, but that doesn't seem to stop them from showing up in the first place, which breaks the automatic window positioning. 19:04:23 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 19:04:41 (setf men-bar-mode 0) (tool-bar-mode 0) 19:04:46 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:04:51 there's a better way to do it: 19:05:11 (when (featurep 'tool-bar) (tool-bar-mode -1)) 19:05:32 so if tool-bar-mode isn't loaded it won't load it just to disable it 19:05:46 of course! nice. 19:06:21 Does that work with menu-bar-mode and scroll-bar-mode? 19:07:20 Dunno, but I'd expect so 19:08:05 Let's try it 19:08:32 Seems to, but it hasn't stopped the damned things from showing up briefly. 19:08:46 Clearly, my .emacs isn't early enough in the init sequence to fix this. 19:09:24 Yeah, but you have to check for 'scroll-bar 19:09:46 -!- waterh [n=waterh@114.143.39.143] has quit ["Think your current client is sexy? Check out Bersirc 2.2! [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]"] 19:09:54 cmatei_ [n=cmatei@89.122.243.173] has joined #lisp 19:10:24 emacs needs an uptime command, for bragging :-P 19:10:52 fusss: http://www.davep.org/emacs/uptimes.el 19:11:13 nyef: What about .Xdefaults, does that work better? 19:11:57 nice! now i'm gonna put emacsd in my /etc/rc.d/rc.local 19:12:04 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d83040.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:13:33 -!- cmatei__ [n=cmatei@vimes.rndsoft.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:18:40 moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 19:20:27 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@193.157.245.20] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:21:30 ... Trying to track this down is too much of a pain for now. 19:21:37 (/ (get-internal-real-time) internal-time-units-per-second 86400.0) => only 133.85963 19:22:23 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 19:23:27 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:24:59 mns [n=user@c-76-119-251-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:06 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [Client Quit] 19:25:14 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 19:29:02 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:29:43 waterh [n=waterh@114.143.39.143] has joined #lisp 19:30:02 cmatei__ [n=cmatei@vimes.rndsoft.ro] has joined #lisp 19:30:18 -!- cmatei_ [n=cmatei@89.122.243.173] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:06 mns pasted "what's wrong with this ? " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73338 19:32:24 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:12 mns annotated #73338 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73338#1 19:33:51 because you are redefining already defined function 19:34:48 Ahh I'm getting it because I keep running the same piece of code as I modify it !! 19:34:55 Got it.! 19:36:54 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 19:37:21 I was looking in the code itself, and ignoring the environment. 19:37:48 Thanks. 19:38:05 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.179.33] has joined #lisp 19:38:55 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:39:21 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:39:54 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:18 -!- cadsAWAAY [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:45:14 Is there anyway I can avoid those warnings ? I don't want to always quit out of and then restart sbcl each time I make a change. 19:45:52 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 19:46:15 they're just style warnings, you can ignore them if you know there's nothing wrong. 19:46:16 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:46:58 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:11 hi. I am reading the paip (at the very beginning). In chapter one Norvig explains how to assign a variable. (setf p '(John Q Public)) . In my setup (gentoo linux, emacs, sbcl, slime) this throws two warnings. Is there something I should worry about? 19:49:30 well, SLIME+Clisp doesn't complain... so, probably not. 19:49:44 loxs: use defparameter instead 19:50:21 mns: warnings about function redefinition are there to save you allot of headdache 19:50:41 you can disable them if you build your own sbcl, there is an option in the local-features file, iirc 19:50:49 stassats, does this mean that PAIP is not a suitable book to learn modern CL? (the book is from 1992) 19:51:00 failing that, you can always wrap a muffle-warning around your code 19:51:13 ehu: actually, there is more worry with clisp, then with sbcl 19:51:18 <_8david> fusss: in SBCL? No, they are there to be as annoying as possible, in the hope that someone is sufficiently annoyed to implement _useful_ redefinition warnings instead (like allegro has) 19:51:19 loxs: no 19:51:20 loxs: why jump to that conclussion? 19:51:52 well, I just don't know and I am asking (I am total newbie)... I'm not jumping to anything :) 19:51:52 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@207.pool85-49-175.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:57 _8david: is this related to the Kitten of Death in anyway? i think i know the answer to that ... 19:52:02 loxs: most implementation will actually work even with setf 19:52:16 <_8david> loxs: setf on an undefined variable is basically just unportable, so you'd have to worry about different implementations doing different things. 19:52:20 it does work actually... only throws 2 warnings 19:52:47 warnings are not errors; they are for you to look at them and ignore if you know what you're doing 19:52:55 PAIP is good to read but you might want to start with PCL 19:53:05 minion: tell loxs about that-dead-sexy-book 19:53:05 loxs: have a look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:53:16 <_8david> loxs: For example, CMUCL has (or had) a feature where the variable would be declared special automatically. It is permitted to do that, but nobody would ever want that. 19:54:11 so you suggest me start with the PCL and then move to paip? 19:54:36 i would actually KILL to have lisp warn me if i'm defining a function with a soundex-like name as another existing function. dyslexia is a bitch. 19:55:34 <_8david> PAIP and PCL are both great. (I don't think the order you read them in matters much. YMMV, of course.) 19:55:35 fusss: sounds like a DWIM mode of interlisp 19:56:06 i routinely have multiple-value-bind variables shadow higher-level variables 19:56:41 specially for form like the clsql DO-QUERY, which must have variable names identical to the SQL table columns 19:57:23 I seem to like Norvig's style better... and after I read the prefaces of the books I choose that one to be first 19:57:25 -!- Cronos [n=a@5ad08fe6.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 19:57:39 stassats: interlisp was the best lisp environment for Warren Tietelman to hack on. others might disagree :-P 19:58:18 Englisp is not my native language 19:58:36 and I was planning to go with PCL if (when) I reach a stage in paip where I don't understand any more :) 19:59:11 loxs: pcl first. PAIP is lisp-porn you might not get quite yet. 19:59:16 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:59:34 lisp-porn... that seems interesting ;D 19:59:58 ok, I go with PCL then 20:00:01 thanks folks :) 20:00:27 paip is .. decadent. refined taste for discriminating connoisseurs. 20:00:41 -!- kidd [n=kidd@80.31.143.150] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:15 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:05:06 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:05:19 kidd [n=kidd@211.Red-88-11-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:23 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:08:47 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@207.pool85-49-175.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 20:09:53 gilberth [n=gilbert@d014059.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 20:11:41 H4ns: I managed to patch flexi-streams to make READ-SEQUENCE signal a condition when BOUND is invalidated! 20:11:52 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:00 blitz_ [n=julian@2001:6f8:10f6:0:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 20:14:03 fusss: How does one muffle-wrap a function ? I'm relatively new to LISP. 20:15:02 muffle-wrap ??? 20:15:13 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcf034.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:15:31 probably meaning declares to make the compiler silent 20:15:43 or catching conditions? 20:15:50 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-142.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:16:05 clhs: 9.2.43 20:16:05 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 9.2.43. 20:16:17 clhs: muffle-warning 20:16:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_muffle.htm 20:16:36 vy: Is your goal to prevent people from uploading something huge, or am I misunderstanding? 20:16:40 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcf034.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:17:06 mns: there is a with-quiet-warnings macro here, look at it carefully http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/r_muffle.htm 20:18:30 ahaas: Right. And being able to recognize that before consuming my whole bandwidth. 20:18:48 vy: Great! I was concerned about that as well. 20:18:57 ahaas: Something par with RequestBodyLimit in apache and friends. 20:19:28 -!- hernia [n=chatzill@189.120.162.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:19:46 I'm working on an application where people upload binary files and I'm worried about people trying to DOS it. 20:19:50 mns: what do you mean by that ? 20:20:52 vy: Do you know if it's also possible to begin parsing the data before the upload has completed? 20:21:08 mns: what you're asking for doesn't seem very productive. stop fighting sbcl and just get on with the hacking. alternatly you can practice on clisp till you know better. 20:21:16 fusss: (shadow 'defun) (defmacro defun (name args &body body) `(progn (let ((others (find-soundex-symbols #|you'd have to test for (setf x)|# ,(string name)))) (when others (warn "defining a function named ~A when there's already other~P~:* named ~{~A~^, ~}." others))) (cl:defun ,name ,args ,@body))) 20:22:30 ahaas: Could be possible by shadowing GET-POST-DATA, but not something trivial AFAIK of. 20:22:31 fusss: now go kill some small animal... 20:23:31 HAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA 20:24:13 netaustin [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has joined #lisp 20:25:16 pjb: simpler than i thought actually 20:25:24 nice! 20:25:35 In lisp, everything is simplier than you think... 20:25:47 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-072-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:11 Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 20:26:21 fucking aye! 20:26:42 fusss: shut up. 20:27:11 ? 20:27:59 worded differently: behave. 20:28:05 oh 20:28:41 -!- kidd [n=kidd@211.Red-88-11-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:50 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:08 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:29:58 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:29 r2q2` [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:26 clhs ~P 20:37:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_chc.htm 20:39:36 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.226.10] has quit ["Got arrested for going 14400 in a 2400 zone"] 20:39:48 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@207.pool85-49-175.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:14 I don't want to be starting a religious war, but please, tell me do you use white background or black background in your slime :) 20:40:37 intruder alert 20:41:03 loxs: green/black of course. 20:41:40 fe[nl]ix: I'm not sure which statement of mine you're referring to when you ask "what do you mean by that?". If its about the muffle wrapping thing, I was just trying to get some clarification on something fuss mentioned. 20:41:52 I use black background with various emacs colors depending on the text 20:42:00 like the docs say, everyone knows strings are brown. 20:42:05 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:42:15 Strings are brown? 20:42:20 loxs: I'm too lazy to alter the default Emacs colors 20:42:35 um, my strings are green :) 20:42:47 Looks like a kindof pale peach to me... 20:42:47 nyef: heh, yeah, that gem was buried somewhere in the fontlock code I think 20:43:35 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.224.140] has joined #lisp 20:44:52 hernia [n=chatzill@189.120.162.44] has joined #lisp 20:45:16 nyef: lisp/font-lock.el, 198-201, as of emacs 22.2 20:45:56 oh sweet .. I can do #! style scripts with clisp ! 20:45:59 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 20:46:40 afa [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has joined #lisp 20:46:56 (and sbcl... and ccl...) 20:47:03 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 20:47:35 Even without the --script option to SBCL, it's not hard. 20:48:10 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:48:56 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:50:02 nyef: I didn't see that --script option listed in the man page for sbcl 20:50:14 mns: it's recent 20:50:27 sbcl 1.0.18.0 on Debian/testing. 20:50:34 It's also unneccessary. 20:50:42 z0d: ok that explains it. 20:51:12 nyef: by using env? 20:51:32 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:51:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 20:51:36 josemanuel [n=josemanu@240.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:51:48 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:56 No, more like the top of http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/crtc-lcd-test.lisp 20:52:26 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:41 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52:44 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:17 nyef: Well, --script is a bit cleaner 20:53:51 And so is just using a wrapper. 20:54:59 Would the same way work with clisp as well ? or Does clisp do that differently ? 20:55:08 That I don't know. 20:55:12 clhs load 20:55:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm 20:55:41 Ah, it's specified to work, but may not, because it's CLISP, which doesn't always follow the spec. 20:56:12 *nyef* remembers the trouble not so long ago when someone found a version of clisp which didn't think that FUNCTION forms were valid things for IGNORABLE. 20:56:16 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:56:27 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-131-217.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:40 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-131-217.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:07 that sounded like some alien language to this particular newbie 20:57:15 :) 20:57:39 What you get for trying to learn secret alien technology. :-P 20:59:17 haha 20:59:20 Next week: Centauri Basic. 20:59:22 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@2001:6f8:10f6:0:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:59:38 clisp uses #!/usr/bin/clisp -C 21:01:00 Ahh, you may not need the -C .. it just compiles when loading. 21:01:54 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@240.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 21:02:22 wow... that slime starts to make me fall in love with it... :) 21:03:12 never seen so helpful IDE 21:04:49 I'd love to use slime. 21:05:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:05:08 Does it support working with remote lisp systems ? 21:05:28 mns: yes, with manual tweaks 21:05:29 mns: Yes. It supports TCP. 21:06:31 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host51-134-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:06:39 the only thing I don't like about CL so far is the fact that at times it returns too arcane answers 21:06:40 Noone wanted POE (http://poe.perl.org) for Common Lisp yet? 21:06:45 like "T" when loading a file :) 21:06:56 loxs: what should it return? 21:07:01 prip_ [n=_prip@host166-181-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:07:19 loxs: in this context it means: "file successfully loaded" 21:07:21 z0d, I don't know... it just seems strange :) 21:07:46 yeah, I understand this... it just isn't very self explanatory :) 21:08:52 z0d: when you go to New York, you wonder why no one wants yack-butter-tea yet? 21:09:00 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:09:09 -!- moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:09:11 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2D8D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:30 -!- Gracenotes is now known as Gracenotes_away 21:09:43 loxs: doesn't C return error codes when doing some operation? 21:10:28 you are right... probably the thing is that I am still not used to it :) 21:11:01 -!- cmatei__ [n=cmatei@vimes.rndsoft.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:13:11 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:33 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:35 cmatei__ [n=cmatei@89.122.243.173] has joined #lisp 21:14:42 pjb: Do we have something like POE? 21:15:01 Do we need something like POE? 21:15:11 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:15:24 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:16:03 pjb: I don't know about you <-: , but I wrote some programs with it. It's easy 21:16:46 ,poe 21:17:07 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:19:04 -!- hernia [n=chatzill@189.120.162.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:10 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:20:21 A ~T in format will insert a tab correct ? 21:20:54 No. 21:21:13 clhs ~T 21:21:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cfa.htm 21:23:33 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:23:38 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.119.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:23:53 interesting. then the place I was getting my information from is incorrect. or wasn't clear enough. 21:25:42 it does tabulation, but not with tab character, maybe that confused you or the author of your information 21:26:12 Where did you get your information? 21:26:42 I was looking at: http://mypage.iu.edu/~colallen/lp/node60.html 21:28:41 "~T for tab spacing" at the bottom of the page. I of course haven't read the appendix it refers me to yet. 21:28:45 it's a bit misleading 21:29:50 but then, there is no appendix for format. 21:30:10 Does anyone have a library out there with a function that will apply a function to elements of a list (to find keys), and return a set of sets of elements sharing the same key? It's not rocket science, but seemed like a library thing, not something I should (re)write 21:30:31 -!- r2q2` [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 21:30:33 rpg: would that be building the equivalence classes? 21:30:35 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:30:45 pjb: Yes. I should have said it that way... 21:30:57 Being used to C/Java/Perl/other such languages, I made the assumption that "~T" would provide the same capability as "\t" 21:31:06 rpg: (find key list :key #'keyfunc)? 21:31:21 rpg: http://darcs.informatimago.com/public/lisp/common-lisp/list.lisp 21:31:50 dlowe: that doesn't build the equivalence classes.... 21:32:16 mns: that would be (format "~C" #\tab) 21:32:31 mns: There's probably a tidier way to do that... 21:32:54 (write-char #\Tab stream) 21:33:13 rpg: "~C" probably inserts a character, yes ? 21:33:26 clhs ~c 21:33:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_caa.htm 21:33:56 lispworks .. is that the former Harlequin LispWorks ? 21:34:05 yes 21:34:14 ahh so it still exists .. 21:34:36 that was a nice place to work at .. 21:35:31 pjb: Thank you very much --- just what I needed. 21:35:43 -!- waterh [n=waterh@114.143.39.143] has quit ["Think your current client is sexy? Check out Bersirc 2.2! [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]"] 21:37:45 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 21:39:06 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:39:20 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:40:53 pjb: BTW, loading just that file into my lisp image yields warning that MAKE-CIRCULAR is not defined... 21:42:14 Just a curiosity, is the book "Lisp" by Winston and Horn still applicable when working with sbcl/clisp ? Or should I be looking at PCL ? 21:42:44 -!- dnm [n=dnm@97.sub-75-197-7.myvzw.com] has quit [] 21:43:10 mns: isn't Lisp more scheme-oriented (as I've heard, I didn't read it) 21:43:18 no 21:43:33 (kind of to both questions) 21:43:45 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host166-181-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:43:55 Krystof: yeah, it was a nice answer 21:44:08 lispm [n=joswig@e177125089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:44:18 right. I think I have a copy here, it just predates some of the clos stuff (/me has a copy) 21:45:10 is there any "connector" to postgresql for common lisp? 21:45:20 loxs: check cliki (yes) 21:45:47 cliki? 21:45:55 loxs: if connector means interface to postgresql 21:45:56 cliki.net 21:45:58 minion: postmodern 21:45:59 postmodern: Postmodern is a library for interacting with PostgreSQL databases through SQL. http://www.cliki.net/postmodern 21:46:01 how do you get the number of parameters in a list? (wanting to check if only one argument exists in the list) 21:46:06 minion: tell loxs about cliki 21:46:07 loxs: look at cliki: CLiki is a free collaborative hypertext (Web) authoring program, written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cliki 21:46:11 prip_ [n=_prip@host65-124-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:46:46 thanks 21:46:59 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:46:59 mkdon: what do you mean? length of the list? 21:47:04 madnificent: you're thinking of The Little Lisper ... of which I used to have a copy back in college (the trade edition), until someone stole it ! 21:47:32 stassats: yeah, number of of elements 21:47:39 mns: I should get real paper-books of lisp books. Perhaps I should do that with the first money I ever make from lisp... buy books 21:47:45 clhs LENGTH 21:47:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_length.htm 21:48:06 madnificent: usually, the costs come before the income. 21:48:13 madnificent: my wife would love to donate my books to you .. lol 21:48:44 *ehu* 's wife would even love to send over the computer 21:48:46 mns: yes, but then you would get a good name here, become an admin on #lisp and ban me from here out of frustration. Perhaps I'd rather buy them :P 21:49:00 and is there any "internal" way (like pickle in Python) to store data in common lisp? 21:49:01 ehu: the cost is "time" 21:49:04 ehu: yes, I know, but as a student, costs are high and income is sparse 21:49:13 lol madnificent 21:49:15 oh nice, didn't think of using length except on strings.. 21:50:10 there is also list specific list-length 21:50:44 loxs: what do you mean by "internal"? PRINT and READ are common ways to store data 21:51:10 madnificent: but as a student, you should have access to a good library, no? 21:51:13 -!- vy [n=user@88.229.116.193] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:51:33 allso, are they really that anti-computer-minded? most girls I meet seem quite accepting towards computers. Some even start giving their computer a name etc (provided you do spend time with them, and explicit the fact that they are important) 21:51:38 kpreid, I mean... some automatic way to store objects without the need to "parse" some text files explicitly in the source code 21:52:04 loxs: READ usually does good parsing. 21:52:30 seems like READ is what I'm asking for... 21:52:32 but not all objects are readable 21:52:32 rpg: yes, but I can read them on the monitor too. I prefer books to make notes in them, use a marker etc. I _can_ do that on the panel-pc, but then I'm not paying royalties and I do feel that it is bad for my eyes (though they are fairly ok for now) 21:52:39 loxs: You mean like having your objects still there when you restart your lisp? 21:52:54 schme, exactly 21:52:59 PRINT/READ won't handle structures, CLOS objects, functions, and other things 21:53:17 loxs: There are a few persistance libraries around. 21:53:17 madnificent: I'm with you about dead trees. I'm trying to read the Clojure book out of a pdf and despite having a good monitor it's really not working. 21:53:18 loxs: again, cliki :P 21:53:34 rpg: and you end up chatting here in the end! 21:53:46 Phoodus: that's what MAKE-LOAD-FORM is for (well, not functions) 21:53:47 persistence even 21:53:49 ok, I'll have a look around. thanks again :) 21:53:50 Phoodus: actually, print/read do handle structure-objects. 21:53:57 #S(...) 21:54:10 loxs: elephant seems popular. 21:54:18 *kpreid* wishes there was a reader syntax like #S that worked for CLOS objects 21:54:20 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:54:34 loxs: there was something with a simple file-backend, I believe 21:55:23 ehu: #S(..) is READable? 21:55:35 absolutely. 21:55:47 I use it in an application of mine. 21:55:52 and portable? :) 21:55:55 a good reason to skip CLOS. 21:56:08 schme: no idea. the application runs on 1 lisp. 21:56:18 (lisp implementation) 21:56:24 no need for interchange. 21:56:33 Fair enough :) 21:56:34 in other words, not a representative sample 21:56:38 however, the ABCL output looks extremely much like SBCL's 21:57:03 I think SBCL reads ABCL's printed structures. 21:57:04 -!- pitui [n=pitui@doh.research.att.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:06 clhs #S 21:57:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhm.htm 21:57:10 it is standard 21:57:43 ah cools. 21:57:48 -!- awayekos [n=anekos@pl160.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:57 huh, didn't know that 21:58:10 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:59:10 Phoodus: the only syntax the printer will ever produce that is unreadable is #< 21:59:29 (not counting the ways you can get unquoted or abbreviated output) 21:59:56 right, but what's the list of things that print like that? Just CLOS objects and lambdas? 21:59:58 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-185.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:07 "everything else" 22:00:40 say a restart, or a condition, or a readtable 22:00:41 Phoodus: I don't think hash tables get printed readably. 22:01:20 at least in CLISP, hashtables are structures 22:01:30 do cl-perec or elephant come with a database that is trivial to setup (including delivery to the client). The speed of that backend does not matter, as long as they don't have to do anything for it 22:01:32 I suspect that's the standard case 22:01:58 you mean them being structures? 22:02:05 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 22:02:10 yeah 22:02:14 in ABCL they're not. at least, not lisp structures. 22:02:16 moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 22:03:43 my SBCL seems to tell me that they are STRUCTURE-OBJECT of type HASH-TABLE :) 22:03:44 yeah, ECL and Allegro both return #< things 22:03:59 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:05:19 oh yes. sbcl does that too. 22:05:29 #< is just the standard syntax for saying "this is not readable" 22:05:37 right 22:05:42 clhs print-unreadable-object 22:05:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_pr_unr.htm 22:05:47 Indeed :) 22:05:47 ^- use it yourself! 22:05:51 Now back to something more interesting. 22:05:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:06:01 That is my problems ;) 22:06:26 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:27 Seeing how I totally misunderstood the CFFI callback thing, I wonder where on earth I would start digging for how to fix the following issue: 22:06:42 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 22:06:59 I need my sbcl to hook up with jackd, and supply jackd with some callbacks.. that the jackd process can call whenever it feels like it. With this stuff it is calling is in lisp land. 22:07:12 I refuse to believe it can't be done :) 22:08:19 schme: the traditional solution is to not run the jack client library, but implement whatever protocol jackd expects in lisp 22:08:34 Hmm.. 22:08:38 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@121.207.29.235] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:08:41 (note: I have no idea what jackd is) 22:08:45 I guess that is easier than my crazy plans. 22:09:06 I figured one could muck around the sbcl to have it just.. ignore stuff, and be nice to other stuff. 22:09:38 Well back to the boring part. The jack people are nice enough to give one header files, with description of all symbols in 'em. Just no protocol documentation whatsoever :) 22:09:49 I guess that is the good thing to do though. 22:10:04 well, not so much if the protocol is subject-to-change-without-notice 22:10:40 kpreid: jackd is a server thing. basically I want it to fire off a function in lisp land a couple of times / sec. cffi callbacks was *not* the way to go :) 22:10:48 Ya probably. 22:11:00 Well.. 22:11:15 Thanks. :) 22:11:18 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:40 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:53 O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 22:12:41 Also I was curious if there is any known work being down towards getting lisp to play CUDA ? 22:12:54 -!- moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:15:10 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:16:50 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 22:17:01 O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 22:17:19 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:17:35 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:18:48 rswarbrick [n=user@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:26 Anyone here poke at EQL(ECL+QT) at all? 22:20:37 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:24:21 hernia [n=chatzill@189.120.162.44] has joined #lisp 22:27:14 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:27:45 Draggor: I haven't, but poking fun at the name might be interesting. 22:28:54 Well, yeah, heh heh. 22:31:01 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:33 -!- cmatei__ [n=cmatei@89.122.243.173] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:12 schme: play CUDA? 22:34:38 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 22:35:46 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:49 ExcelsisD [i=email@89.180.181.146] has joined #lisp 22:36:54 slyrus_: To get lisp to work seamlessly with CUDA. 22:37:42 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:37:56 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.224.140] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:38:30 -!- ExcelsisD is now known as X-Scale 22:38:35 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 22:40:16 cmatei__ [n=cmatei@vimes.rndsoft.ro] has joined #lisp 22:40:46 -!- ksergio [n=sgarcia@mail.nuecho.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:55 slyrus_: I want my 16 extra 8 thread processors ;) 22:44:35 plutonas [n=plutonas@adsl-214.ucnet.uoc.gr] has joined #lisp 22:47:13 Is there a function what will convert an unsigned 16-bit into to a signed 16-bit int? For example (coerce 39168 '(signed-byte 16)) fails. 22:48:20 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 22:49:30 bryte [n=user@c-24-21-34-206.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:10 Balooga: as I know there isn't. You have to subtract the appropriate number from the unsigned one. 22:51:03 l4ndfo: That's what I figured. thanks. 22:51:56 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:51:58 maybe (logand 39168 #x7FFF) ? 22:52:27 or something... 22:52:34 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-65.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 22:53:02 Lisp doesn't have a notion of whether an integer is signed or not. Every integer has a sign. Lisp provides some types for certain sets of integers, such as those in the interval [#x-8000, #x8000), for which the type is named (SIGNED-BYTE 16). 39168 does not lie in that interval. 22:53:28 stassats: is that nicer than subtracting? i don't think so, but tastes can be different :) 22:53:29 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:45 drforr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:48 It does, however, lie in the interval of the type whose name is (UNSIGNED-BYTE 16), i.e. [0, #x10000). 22:54:21 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:54:56 l4ndfo: don't know, i became a little bit puzzled after i posted it 22:55:17 hi all, would anyone have a rough idea of the ratio of single-valued/multiple-valued functions/operations in CL in general? We're doing some optimization work for abcl compiler, so it would be nice to have a rough idea about which to make the default. 22:55:40 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:55:46 LOGAND won't help. Only given two negative integers will it yield another negative integer. 22:56:09 trittweil [n=rittweil@rayhalle1.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:12 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:36 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:58:06 (lambda (x) (if (>= x #x8000) (- x #x1000) x)), I think, is the simplest expression of a Lisp function that sign-extends an integer in the (UNSIGNED-BYTE 16) interval. 22:58:28 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:59:40 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@dhcp-18-111-61-198.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 22:59:43 -!- younder [i=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 23:01:03 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:01:07 you mean (- x #x10000)? 23:01:14 ...yes, I do. 23:01:35 Balooga: how did you end up in such a mess, anyway? 23:03:10 schme: do you mean to have lisp code compiled to run on CUDA? 23:03:47 slyrus_: Well I imagine one would have to make a fancy DSL :) 23:04:53 salex: writing a software audio mixer for lispbuilder-sdl 23:05:05 Riastradh: how about (lambda (x) (- x (* 2 (logand x #x8000)))) 23:05:26 no, my point was, why do you ever have signed 16 bit values sitting in unsigned 16 bit values 23:05:28 ? 23:05:28 (of course, that's "just" encoding the condition in arithmetic) 23:05:39 broken binary I/O somewhere in ffi ? 23:05:59 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:03 -!- mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has quit [] 23:06:20 salex: WAV samples are returned as a sequence of unsigned bytes. The mixer is set to signed-short. So I have to convert the samples to signed-shorts, then mix these, apply the volume, and send out to the mixer. 23:06:40 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [] 23:06:53 That is slightly shorter, I suppose, kpreid. 23:06:57 Balooga: (i.e. like I surmised) 23:07:30 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:38 Riastradh: It would be nicer to somehow express actual sign-extension, though 23:08:04 salex: I can't use the CFFI layer to perform the coversion, as I only know what the type is after the data is returned. So I have to perform all conversions myself. 23:08:10 Balooga: just do the binary i/o correctly as you read them in,then. You may be better off without them in 16 anywa 23:08:12 negating is the only way I could think of to copy one 1 bit out to the infinite series 23:08:30 Balooga: yeah, but you really aren't dealing with unsigned bytes so much as a binary stream 23:08:30 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:10:02 sorry, *unsigned bytes, s/b unsigned 16-bit 23:10:28 in your shoes, i'd read it in as unsigned bytes and just put them together properly at taht point.... 23:11:22 is msb/lsb fixed? 23:11:47 msb/lsb is not fixed. 23:12:00 ok, so that's another wrinkle. 23:12:03 salex: I have to test for these as well. 23:12:10 but this is all pretty straightforward. 23:12:21 i just didn't understand how you got to 16 bit unsigneds... 23:12:53 (defun sign-extend (bit integer) (- integer (* 2 (logand integer (ash 1 bit))))) 23:13:06 ...oops. 23:13:12 Riastradh: yes, that's the general version 23:13:13 the audio can come is as uint8, sint8, s16lsb, u16lsb, s16msb or u16msb 23:13:20 (- (logand integer (lognot (ash -1 bit))) ...) 23:13:28 Balooga: right, so you have a generic binary i/o problem 23:13:46 hmm 23:13:47 (in case there are higher-order bits set) 23:14:06 Balooga: internally to the lisp program you might not want any ofthese, of course 23:14:16 but you need code to pack/unpack to theyse types for i/o 23:14:43 since you hvae a bunch of them, just as easy to macro the whole thing 23:14:51 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177125089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 23:15:20 salex: I'm trying to read these into the correct format on the Lisp side. So the CFFI buffers are converted into Lisp arrays. 23:15:50 salex: Becaused svref's are way faster than cffi:mem-aref's 23:15:55 why are you using cffi btw, for the wav parsing? how complex is ithe format (i thout they were simple) 23:16:17 (What ought to be the phrase for the opposite of sign extension?) 23:16:29 rswarbri_ [n=user@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:35 Balooga: can you not get hold of the buffer as unsigned bytes? 23:16:36 salex: using sdl.dll to read in the WAV format. 23:16:46 [i.e. (lambda (bit integer) (logand integer (lognot (ash -1 bit))))] 23:17:22 salex: Sure, that's what the SDL conversion function returns. A pointer to an array of unsigned bytes. 23:17:56 ok, so why do you ever have signed 16bits stuck in unsigned 16bits then? 23:18:11 i'm confused 23:18:17 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@dhcp-18-111-61-198.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:19:07 salex: ok. Well, it's like this. 23:19:43 salex: the SDL function returns a WAV as a pointer to an array of unsigned bytes. 23:21:34 salex: Another SDL function takes this pointer, and converts the format of the WAV into the same format as the audio hardware (in this case the audio hardware is configured to S16lsb). This conversion function returns a pointer to an array of unsigned-byte, but of course the action data is S16lsb. 23:21:41 parenscript just failed me again, I have given up with it now, it doesn't work properly 23:21:45 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 23:21:51 -!- deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:22:17 Balooga: What do you need the actual data for? 23:22:34 So now I have an array of uint8 bytes that represent s16lsb values. 23:22:44 right. so where's your problem? 23:22:55 there are no U16lsb there 23:24:01 deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 23:24:38 salex: right. But to convert two bytes to 16bits I do a (logior (ash (aref array (1+ i))) (aref array i)) 23:25:03 salex: Which gives me u16lsb instead of s16lsb 23:25:14 Umm... 23:25:16 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@217.194.205.196] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:25:19 so don't do that 23:25:35 ExcelsisD [i=email@89.180.189.190] has joined #lisp 23:25:50 schme: Mixing several audio buffers in software. 23:26:02 For that, I do (request-inetger array i 2 :little-endian t :sign-extend t), and trust the compiler-macro to make it not suck. 23:26:26 nyef: ??? 23:26:51 Have a look at the "Low-level buffer munging" part of http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/clxs/repos/clxs/request.lisp 23:27:53 salex: How else can I start combining several audio buffers together, limit audio for each, clamp result between specified limits, and then write to the output audio hardware? Can't do all these operations on a series of unsigned bytes. 23:28:07 -!- alex84 [n=zeronull@chello084114039189.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:28:43 drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:06 Balooga: does not lispbuilder-sdl-mixer do all this? 23:29:09 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.181.146] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:29:13 -!- ExcelsisD is now known as X-Scale 23:29:46 Balooga: It's basically set up to be able to read or write 1-, 2- and 4-octet values, both signed and unsigned, from an (unsigned-byte 8) buffer, with a uniform format that does not require interning a different symbol for each combination. 23:29:53 schme: It does it wonderfully... But it crashes in win32. 23:30:01 Balooga: Oh ok. 23:30:08 Balooga: You know the solution ;) 23:30:25 nyef: Thanks, I'll take a look. 23:30:42 schme: The solution is to convince someone to take the role of Win32 advocate on sbcl-devel? 23:30:50 schme: Fix SDL_mixer.dll? 23:31:04 haha. 23:31:13 nyef: Crashes in SBCL/win32, Lispworks & CLISP. 23:31:16 No I was merely thinking "remove the windows" :P 23:31:33 oudeis [n=oudeis@217.194.205.196] has joined #lisp 23:31:40 schme: Ah :) 23:31:46 -!- rswarbrick [n=user@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:51 nyef: I'll bookmark that code of yours. I have a feel I will need that stuff later. 23:31:51 Balooga: no, i meant read the signed values. something like nyefs approach works, lots of ways to do it 23:31:52 Balooga: Ah. That's no fun. Does it also crash in C? 23:32:29 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:33:00 nyef: Haven't tried it in C. And the Lisp environment doesn't crash. It just locks up solid. 23:33:05 you can also easily make a macro to generate readers/writers for all your combinations and intern them in some other namespace 23:33:28 salex: Let me just say that I tried that. Yuck. 23:34:25 I'm pretty sure there is a race condition, because SDL_mixer.dll calls back into the Lisp process for more audio data. 23:34:29 nyef: it's ok if it exposes a clean interface only. easy to optimize ... haven't looked at your particulars there 23:34:41 just pointing out there are different ways to do this 23:35:02 Balooga: Race condition, or is it trying to call in from a fresh thread that hasn't been appropriately "blessed"? 23:35:40 Balooga: but note my previous, if you are doing signal processing on this you may not want to store them in 16 bit values anyway (you'll need to pack them at the end, natch) 23:36:10 nyef: It's blessed on the Lispworks side, that's for sure. I think. 23:36:20 salex: Had I not needed to do big and little and sign-extend and unsigned, the macro approach might have been sufficiently clean to work with... Or the just-write-the-code-longhand approach. 23:36:28 salex: Good point. 23:36:55 Isn't modern audio signal processing done with floatyness, anyways? 23:37:11 often,yes. which is part of my point ;) 23:38:52 salex/nyef: This is a very simple mixer to start. The C library uses optimized MMX assembler to implement this. So that means the Lisp version is going to be a lot slower. 23:39:47 do you care much? particularly if it's simple 23:40:07 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.179.33] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:41:16 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:41:41 salex: If it was only audio, then I wouldn't care so much. But there can be a lot of graphics processing going on at the same time. 23:42:39 nyef: modern audio processing is done with GPUs ;) 23:43:12 Heh. I remember having a good laugh about that idea, back when GPUs couldn't do any sort of custom processing. 23:43:36 they're getting pretty good now 23:43:46 schme: Modern graphics is done in hardware too. But not in my case. 23:43:57 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@adsl-214.ucnet.uoc.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:44:07 I wonder what this will do to the market for sound cards with lotsa power for specifically audio processing. 23:44:39 Balooga: you should be able to make this plenty fast enough for simple mixing 23:44:44 what sort of graphics are you doing? 23:46:12 plutonas [n=plutonas@adsl-214.ucnet.uoc.gr] has joined #lisp 23:46:36 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:01 salex: Nothing specific right now. Just writing examples for lispbuilder-sdl. 23:47:20 *schme* sighs. browsing audio cards always makes me want to buy a mac. :( 23:47:27 *schme* stops the insanity. 23:47:29 schme: big expensive audio cards don't really do any audio processing. They're big and expensive because of sound fidelity and latency reduction 23:47:40 salex: But these examples have the frame-rate displayed. So the faster the better. 23:48:05 Phoodus: ? 23:48:12 Phoodus: Of course they do. 23:48:26 Phoodus: big expensive audio "cards" live outside the machine, too 23:48:40 Phoodus: Go look up a powercore express or some such :) 23:48:57 $999 of PCI goodness ;) 23:49:09 if your'e looking for realtime effects, yeah 23:49:19 Well of course. 23:49:22 you two are talking about two different sides of audio 23:49:26 anyway, no matter 23:49:35 Ya no matter. 23:49:36 Balooga: you can make things fast enough, don't worrk 23:49:54 Hopefully this GPU stuff will make it all good. 23:49:55 :) 23:49:59 Hrm. According to the website, lispbuilder on windows only works with lispworks personal edition. 23:50:37 "GPU stuff", as you put it, is still a bit of a pita. but it's getting better from what i hear 23:51:05 nyef: It works on Lispworks Personal/Pro, SBCL and CLISP on win32. There is an issue with ECL+trivial-garbage, so I haven't been able to tst that combination yet. 23:51:22 Sounds like the website needs fixing, then. 23:51:33 salex: How is it a pita? 23:51:36 salex: I would like to make things as efficient as possible, is what I meant. 23:51:40 -!- archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:02 schme: to do generalized computations, i mean 23:52:06 (apart from the lack of cl-cuda) 23:52:14 nyef: I guess I should update it then ;) 23:52:19 salex: oh ya of course. But it seems great for audio processing. That's my plan anyway ;) 23:52:25 and backgammon of course. 23:52:35 Balooga: yeah, i'm just saying don't fall into premature opt. 23:52:36 ok enough OT for me. 23:53:27 -!- hernia [n=chatzill@189.120.162.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:53:50 ferexample, your u16 s16 thing, you can just use logbit to test the sign, ldb and byte to slice off the rest -- worry about it later iff it actually compiles to something slow 23:53:53 that's all i'm scahing 23:53:56 *saying 23:54:05 anyway, i've got a meeting 23:54:06 bbl 23:54:34 beach [n=user@58.186.158.129] has joined #lisp 23:54:39 Good morning. 23:54:47 What would be a good way to validate user input for a webapp? 23:55:04 carefully 23:55:06 hey beach 23:55:08 (like checking they haven't put HTML in there or some crap) 23:55:20 salex: yea exactly :O 23:56:26 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:57:02 cl-who's esc? 23:57:23 -!- afa [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has quit [] 23:57:38 or hunchentoot:escape-for-html 23:58:36 jurasic park! cheers 23:58:46 bbl 23:58:58 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection]