00:03:58 weee! now can someone help me come up with a better name than do-at-least-once? ;) 00:04:25 do-while 00:04:39 until? 00:05:40 until would more be a test and a body, infilooping until it happens. do-until maybe, but that's still ambiguous 00:06:13 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c-98-200-245-184.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:06:15 sohum: just use the loop macro (loop do ... while ...) as pjb suggested. 00:06:34 sohum: that way you don't need a name for it, and you can mix it with other loop-isms. 00:06:38 -!- drdo`` is now known as drdo 00:07:15 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-46da48c496fa88db] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:35 For people using hunchentoot without Apache, how do you view hits /stats? 00:07:37 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:42 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-faa77e0cd2acb1e8] has joined #lisp 00:11:26 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:13:19 sohum: (do (...) () (frob) (when (foop) (return))) 00:13:26 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 00:14:19 tcr: yep, that's what I did. except - can you just write the endlist as () instead of (nil)? 00:14:44 sohum: i agree with beach .. we already have perfectly good looping macros that can handle your case .. don't bother creating and naming a special case.. unless you really hate the reader you are writing for. 00:16:02 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:16:17 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:27 sohum: Oh you're right. What a pity. 00:16:27 -!- qbg [n=qbg@74.33.102.125] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:17:10 There is a point where such a DO expression would be better than using LOOP, though I'd probably just use PROG in that particular case. 00:18:23 drewc: I'm writing this for myself, to learn common lisp. part of that is learning to use macros, and to get used to s-expressions. It will probably be rejiggered later, so it's not that big a deal. thanks anyway! 00:19:57 evenin' 00:19:57 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:20:06 sohum: That's good, but for the record, I think it is a bad use of macros to modify the language in arbitrary ways without introducing any more power. Macros are best when they permit code factoring or syntax that is otherwise not available. 00:20:21 hello schme 00:21:03 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:11 sohum: Otherwise you get phenomena similar to #define BEGIN { #define END } in C, which gave people the idea that macros are a bad idea, so they were eliminated in Java. 00:22:10 beach: after seeing the clisp sources, i wish they would be removed from the C preprocessor as well 00:22:13 sohum: in my opinion, and important part of learning how to use macros is learning when (and when not) to use them :). Having said that, play around... graham wrote an entire book of macros that should never have existed! :) 00:22:14 Even people I respect a lot such as John Levin (moderateor of comp.compilers, I hope I got his name right) still think macros are bad because of that. 00:22:36 an important* 00:23:07 "macros are bad" -john 00:23:21 fusss: I agree with drewc though. I think people should know when not to use macros, rather than forcing them by eliminating the feature. 00:23:36 macros are, for the most part, bad 00:23:49 when they are good they are really good though. 00:24:07 drewc: I think I know what you mean, but that's not a great way of expressing it. 00:24:14 not at all... 00:24:20 ok, so you're saying that anything that could be implemented as a function should not be a macro? that's the only way I can parse that, and it seems as if, say, LOOP didn't exist, this modification to DO would be popular enough and would have to be expressed as code substitution 00:24:24 but i know what i mean :) 00:24:39 sohum: you've got it. 00:25:12 the thousand different named variations of DO lead to LOOP 00:26:50 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-056-043.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:27:08 sohum: If you want to improve your macro-writing-fu, try to implement the macros provided by CL itself. 00:27:34 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 00:28:18 Implementing DOLIST properly is already laborious. 00:28:28 tcr: uh.. ooh. that sounds ... quite difficult. hmmmm... 00:30:38 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-004-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:38 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:31:03 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:42 sohum: There are some easier ones that are easy to get mostly right, DOLIST, DOTIMES, WITH-SLOTS, WITH-ACCESSORS, WITH-OPEN-FILE, WITH-INPUT-FROM-STRING, WITH-OUTPUT-FROM-STRING, IGNORE-ERRORS come to mind 00:31:57 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@99-186-122-131.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:02 *weirdo* feels like writing generic-let :) 00:33:27 weirdo: be strong and resist :) 00:34:27 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:37:42 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:38:03 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:08 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:56 huzzah! 00:40:59 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:03 -!- FZ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 00:41:08 life just got a whole lot more ajaxier! 00:41:44 fusss: i don't know if that's a happy thing. 00:41:50 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.129.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:42:04 fusss: When you said that, I had a sudden Cave Story flashback. 00:42:26 (... and now I want to play again. Where'd my game controller go?) 00:42:51 what do you mean don't know? a real time, server-polled clock with all the goodness of network round trips. what did you want me to do? settle for client-side javascript? pfffffffft. 00:43:27 fusss: no .. but XML is overkill for almost all applications. 00:43:50 it even has self-formatted time and date! get-decoded-time Inside(TM) 00:44:00 or does ajax mean something different then it did when they named ot. 00:44:05 in the future, computers will have built-in hardware for decoding utf8 and parsing xml 00:44:52 hmm 00:45:05 hefner: intel recently gave us a (exactly one, mind you) crc32 :| 00:45:05 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:12 hi sellout 00:45:13 drewc: say what? i can't hear you. (setf (content-type) "text/plain") on the server side. time = ajaxObject.responseText on the client. we're rolling on plain ascii! 00:45:51 ajax .. asynchronous java and xml 00:46:22 <_3b> drewc: they never specified well-formed xml 00:46:22 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:46:28 pkhuong: Hunh. I could have -sworn- that CRC-calculation instructions were standard issue. I know they were on the VAX. 00:46:28 do they just change the names of things in the web dev community? 00:46:49 i mean.. i've been using hidden frames to do this stuff since at least 2000 ... 00:46:55 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:07 i thought the new bit was using xml and xmlhttprequrest. 00:47:29 fusss: and you should be using parenscript! :) 00:47:46 nyef: that didn't make it in the x86 world until very recently... And they don't even let us specify our own polynomial. 00:48:30 Intel's idea of CISC is very far from the DEC ideal. 00:48:47 I miss VAX assembly. 00:48:47 Ugh. 00:48:52 drewc: we'll figure that out when we get to it. right now i'm shooting down buzzwords like Cheney's old friends on the MTA (Massachusettes Transit Authority; where old rich guys get shot)! 00:49:04 I missed VAX assembly. But I may write an emulator one day so I can have that fun. 00:49:08 Almost as much fun as PDP-10 assembly. :D 00:49:21 VAX assembly was fun, yes. 00:49:57 SIMH is your one-stop shop for all your archaic hardware emulation needs. http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ 00:50:21 fooquux: Ooh! Does it do the Hummingbird processor? 00:50:58 nyef: which one was that? 00:51:01 nyef: wow! was just reading up on the humming on "great processors of the past" page 00:51:27 fooquux: It was the "Lisp Chip" used in the TI Explorer II and microExplorer. 00:51:38 Oh, that's right, I remember it now. 00:51:43 No, unfortunately. 00:51:54 How about the Raven processor? 00:52:14 *nyef* is aware of two publicly-available Raven CPU emulators. 00:52:19 -!- cddr [i=andy@user-5440d0d0.wfd79a.dsl.pol.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:52:22 Meroko and Nevermore. 00:52:35 Right. dseagrav's and mine. 00:52:58 I used to be really into Exploder emulation, but gave up when I went back to academia. 00:53:42 ... This is the point where I look up your whois information and swear in recognition. 00:53:47 hehe 00:54:17 I don't live in Alaska anymore, I moved to Hawai'i for school. :D 00:54:18 I gotta say, Explorer III was demented, codewise, but as a project idea it was great. 00:54:44 E3 was a mad, raving, crazy thing. 00:55:09 I think a lot of it involved ethanol consumption. 00:55:15 Yeah, if it took, what, less than 2k of code to kill, it was worth killing. 00:55:53 Honestly, -years- spent complaining about how hard function-calling would be to emulate. 00:55:53 hehe 00:55:59 And, in the end, how hard was it? 00:56:03 Not very. 00:56:26 Shoulda targeted the CADR from the beginning though. 00:56:30 My initial implementation didn't even put the stack frame together properly. 00:56:57 Nah, the CADR might have been good from a microcode perspective, but the macrocode was something else. 00:57:08 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:57:09 True. 00:57:16 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.235.204] has joined #lisp 00:57:18 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:41 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:57:56 I wouldn't even have started nevermore had it not been for needing to figure out the semantics of stack-group switching. And I never -did- figure out those semantics. 00:58:02 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:18 Oh well, long behind us. 00:58:31 The guts of all the LispMs were completely psychotic. 00:58:45 They were trying to do way too much with not enough hardware. 00:58:59 And then sell it for only 15 kilodollars a seat! 00:59:19 Mmm... One of the problems, I think, is that they were trying to do it in hardware. 00:59:29 Yeah. Software wouldn't run fast enough. 00:59:43 offload the processing to the marketing department 00:59:53 fusss: Didn't SEGA do that with the Genesis? 00:59:54 fooquux: with that kind of money? 01:00:16 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:26 pkhuong: That and more wouldn't do the job. 01:00:31 fooquux: So, how's academia treating you? 01:00:57 I'm much better. Not answering the phone at 4:00 am to some screaming nitwit has helped my sanity. 01:01:07 Now I work on saving endangered languages. 01:01:16 nyef: yeah, SEGA had slow bitblt implemented in sales agents 01:01:24 Programming or otherwise? 01:01:30 Human. 01:01:34 fusss: Called "Blast Processing", wasn't it? 01:01:42 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:01:50 Programming languages are easier to document. 01:01:57 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:05 We have yet to fully reverse engineer a human language compiler. 01:02:14 fooquux: Heh. That's true. 01:02:14 nyef: maybe, not sure 01:02:35 (too bad it wasn't a BLAST processor) 01:02:49 pkhuong: No, it was a 68000 and a Z80. 01:03:19 fortran chips haven't made it big. hopefully after stack processors, "the wave of the future" .. rofl 01:03:37 One of these days I'd like to go back and clean up nevermore a bit. 01:03:43 actually, risc IS a fortran machine 01:03:56 I thought risc was a C machine? 01:04:08 fooquux: What is it you save about those languages? Grammar? Vocabulary? Speach? 01:04:16 beach: Everything possible. 01:04:32 the native speakers. in jars 01:04:34 fooquux: This means going to the places where they are spoken I take it? 01:04:40 I LOL'd. 01:04:42 nyef: stanford was a C shop. but nearly every compiler optimization that exploited risc was implemented in fortran first. 01:04:54 beach: Yes, living in grass huts and all that. 01:04:56 fusss: Hunh. Neat. 01:05:10 Although I work in the Pacific Northwest, so it's much more "civilized". 01:05:24 fusss: that's probably because fortran's semantics are less insane. 01:05:31 My professors work in places like Pohnpei and South Efate. 01:05:46 If you can find them on a map then you pass the geography exam. 01:06:18 I think I might not take the geography course instead. 01:06:18 fooquux: that sounds pretty fun! 01:06:39 It's a blast, and it's nice to know you're doing something both scientifically valuable and of great import to humanity. 01:06:52 fortran compiler hackers basically embraced and extended Wulf's work on BLISS 01:06:53 <_3b> http://www.sbcl.org/all-news.html version # links don't seem to work, s/a href/a name/ in sbcl-page/news-page.lisp:81 might fix it 01:07:45 _3b: you can be more confident and say "will", you know. 01:08:04 Or even just "should". 01:08:08 <_3b> fooquux: no idea if that script is actually used :) 01:08:50 cddr [i=andy@user-544755e5.wfd87a.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:09:30 fooquux: Some time ago I read something about the number of languages that disappear every year. I don't know whether it was accurate, but the number seemed huge to me. 01:09:58 The numbers are highly approximate. 01:10:05 I can imagine. 01:10:12 But with say 7000 languages, over 90% will be gone in 100 years. 01:10:57 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:07 I don't have the reference for that handy, but it's what my department usually claims. 01:11:29 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["bye bye"] 01:11:38 The language I work on, Tlingit, has about 400 or 500 speakers alive, all but 2 over 60. 01:11:42 fooquux: I still kick myself for not documenting the local language in the suburb where I grew up, which used to be a fishing village with its very own langauge. 01:11:43 "Neutrality? I want to bury other languages, not have a gateway to them." -- Ken Tilton 01:11:45 brilliant! 01:11:57 beach: where at? 01:12:12 Limhamn, Malmö, Sweden. 01:12:43 That area has some great linguistic diversity for a European locale. 01:13:00 `` [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:05 <_3b> yay, sorceforge viewcvs just decided sbcl doesn't exist :/ 01:13:10 -!- `` is now known as ``Erik 01:13:15 <_3b> right as i found the patch i wanted to look at too 01:13:17 fooquux: Is this documented somewhere. I would be interested in reading about it. 01:13:27 _3b: Really? Damn. Guess I'll start hunting for a new Lisp to use... 01:13:42 _3b: use the git repositoy perhaps? 01:13:52 _3b: Have you considered trying the git... what luis said. 01:13:56 <_3b> back now, or i would 01:14:31 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:33 <_3b> hmm, wonder if the infinites 0 bug in TIME isn't completely fixed 01:17:00 beach: http://www.ethnologue.com is where to start. 01:17:05 *_3b* should probably upgrade to a more current sbcl one of these days 01:17:15 fooquux: Thanks! 01:19:06 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:46 <_3b> can someone with a current sbcl try (sb-impl::%format-decimal *standard-output* 7000000 6) and see if it prints 0s forever? 01:20:23 _3b: works fine here 01:20:42 _3b: same here (1.0.24 + unrelated hacks) 01:21:10 <_3b> cool, guess i must have some local brokenness then 01:21:25 1.0.19 on win32 has the bug. 1.0.20 on linux is fixed. 1.0.23 on another linux is fixed. 01:21:47 <_3b> yeah, should have been checked in mid 1.0.19 01:22:00 fooquux: I think 80000 speakers for scy is a great underestimation. 01:22:12 <_3b> just got confused by having the patch applied in my tree, apparently i never actually built a core with it though 01:22:24 fooquux: The region has 1000000 inhabitants or so. 01:23:17 beach: language experts list 5 or so different "languages" for my home country. they're more like dialects actually. 01:23:41 or uneducated people's slang 01:23:43 fooquux: bah, that site says Esperanto is a language of France. Lame. 01:25:12 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A505.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:25:32 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-115.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:25:39 oh, it lists 10 on ethnologue. half of them certainly spoken by immigrants from neighboring countries, where they're a whopping majority. 01:26:05 "save Haitian creole in france" .. why? plenty of haitians in Haiti :-P 01:26:44 -!- antoni [n=antoni@50.pool85-53-29.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:04 fusss: A language is a dialect with an army, a navy, and an airforce. 01:27:10 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:27:38 i guess i speak a dialect then. my native language doesn't even have a police force :-D 01:28:54 fusss: I prefer calling what I spoke as a child a "language", because there is a tendency for dialects to be frowned upon as "wrong", whereas if it is a diffierent language, people are more tolerant. 01:29:19 fusss: what is your native language? 01:29:26 some of the languages listed are even rejected by the native speakers, due to their upward class mobility. as soon communities get wealthy they try to shed the old tongue with its connotations of poverty, and assimilate with the larger community. 01:29:31 beach: Somali 01:30:17 There are some languages that are purely political constructs which nobody speaks, too. 01:30:28 Pilipino/Filipino comes to mind. 01:31:41 metro-manilaese :-) 01:31:44 fusss: In my case, the central Swedish government has succeeded after a few 100 years of indoctrination to make people in my native region think they are Swedish, and therefore should speak Swedish, and since they don't, they are "wrong". I don't imagine that can be good for the self confidence of kids growing up there. 01:31:52 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 01:32:05 That's a pretty standard attitude for most of Europe, actually. 01:32:17 fooquux: yeah, France is another good example. 01:32:25 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.129.98] has joined #lisp 01:32:28 (which is where I live now) 01:32:48 Plattdeutsch in Germany, Occitan et al. in France, Piemontese and the like in Italy, etc., etc. 01:33:30 Indeed. 01:33:37 Only occasionally in Europe does a minority language get some kind of recognition, like Frisian in the Netherlands or Basque & Catalan in Spain. 01:33:38 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk18.net.upc.cz] has quit [Operation timed out] 01:34:08 For all its linguistic diversity, Europe is a saddeningly homogenizing place for languages. 01:34:18 fooquux: umm, Basque speakers had to throw a hisy fit, iirc :-D 01:34:33 fusss: Indeed, so did the Catalonians. 01:34:50 It helped after they got rid of Franco though. 01:35:05 Anyway, I'm afraid I've led us quite far off topic. 01:35:08 fooquux: diversity sounds good, being able to understand each other also good. Let's all learn Esperanto? :) 01:35:29 luis: vamos falar portuguese meu amigo :-P 01:35:34 luis: One of my profs studied *native* Esperanto speaking children. 01:35:51 fooquux: I've met a few. :) 01:35:56 He joked about working on native speakers of Klingon next... :-P 01:36:11 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:36:51 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:37:00 On the Lisp topic, does anyone have a recommendation for making a parser? 01:37:30 I am pondering some software to handle Shoebox database files. 01:37:51 It's an archaic format from the 80s, still alive and still horrible. 01:37:57 Well, recursive-descent is always fun if your grammar is amenable... 01:38:55 There's apparently a Perl module to do it. 01:38:57 *fooquux* sighs. 01:39:19 I refuse to try to read that regexp nightmare. 01:39:30 And working with binary formats can be fun too. 01:39:45 Hmm, maybe binary-formats would be the right idea. 01:40:03 Or just rolling your own. 01:40:08 hrmpf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoebox 01:40:11 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-16-250.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 01:40:29 two entries for the building style 01:41:31 http://www.sil.org/computing/toolbox/ 01:41:40 That's the newer version which knows UTF-8. 01:41:45 Renamed "Toolbox". 01:41:55 ah 01:43:04 The database format is undocumented and closely tied to the front end software. 01:43:24 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:18 Great fun, in other words? 01:44:28 Yeah, especially with closed source. 01:44:48 -!- hfoo [n=h@p5B17EF27.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:44:49 I have literally gigabytes of data that I'd like to make into something useful. 01:45:11 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-111-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:26 All in random coding systems, all with undocumented internal structure. 01:45:40 It's a job only Lisp can handle. 01:45:57 Or perl, if you're masochistic enough. :-P 01:46:37 *fooquux* shudders. 01:47:21 perl could handle it... it's you handling perl that becomes an issue. 01:47:59 regular expressions = two problems 01:48:17 We already had that joke today. 01:50:32 dunno how much of a "database" is your binary database, but if it's big enough to have ODBC drivers, you're sweet to go 01:50:43 Dude, it predates ODBC. 01:50:48 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:50:53 -!- BrianRice-mb is now known as BrianRice 01:50:53 It's also a single-user system. 01:51:12 Implemented on a single platform. 01:51:29 What platform? 01:51:42 Windows only. Used to be DOS only. Before that, Honeywell only. 01:52:09 it's not likely to have odbc drivers 01:52:19 Okay, so you have the basics needed to do the reverse engineering, at least. 01:52:24 i have seen odbc tacked on really old databases though, so it's not an issue 01:53:35 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:40 I guess the nasty part is that the database structure is not regular, so you have to figure out how each one is structured. 01:54:23 There's no metadata describing the structure? 01:54:29 No, none. 01:54:52 Just the written descriptions, which are for end-users. 01:55:10 you can always rip apart the perl script and see how it does its magic 01:55:29 Turns out it's just a dumb line-by-line parser, doesn't produce real structured data. 01:55:33 I guess that's how the binary prevalence-style object stores will feel like in 10 years. 01:55:56 reversing a binary database is begging for bleeding eyeballs 01:56:09 It's actually not binary, though. 01:56:15 That's the one blessing. 01:56:18 fusss: Been there, done that, it was kindof fun. 01:56:32 But what coding system is used for the text is essentially arbitrary. 01:56:55 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:57:09 if you can get a virgin exe and force it to accept an empty database; you can start making very small changes and taking diffs 01:57:22 That's the plan. 01:57:28 You can do that even with a real db. 01:57:29 hexl-mode and maybe some custom highlighting hacks 01:57:34 .. or you can just disassemble it 01:57:38 Nah. 01:57:44 It's not that bad. 01:57:47 adeht: you can't "disassemble" a file format 01:58:01 fusss: you said "exe" 01:58:02 fusss: You can disassemble the application, though. 01:59:04 nyef: you can disassemble the application, sure, and if it's a DOS exe it's probably easier than anything you find now. but you will have to do complete code flow analysis to see all the points in the code where it "touches" the database file 01:59:19 i have been bit by a GPS database thing for ship navigation 01:59:19 nonsense 01:59:22 True, but if it's small enough... 01:59:26 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-163.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:59:45 jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-163.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:00:58 fooquux: what is the community size for this thing? 02:01:26 Lots of people, almost all of them illiterate in programming. 02:01:36 The few that are seem to be Windows programmers. 02:02:47 Okay, found a "type" file that describes structure. 02:03:10 It's written in the same format as the actual data, which is convenient. 02:03:22 I'll have to start on a basic reader function. 02:03:28 well, you can get a good feel for what functions it uses. run `strings` on it and see if it uses any win32 API for structured data or any recognizable record sizes. i was able to crack some apps that used a third party storage library. get the specs on that lib and hack away. 02:03:44 It's not binary files, it's all text. 02:03:51 So I don't need such emergency measures. 02:04:06 just plain lexing then :-) 02:04:11 Yep. 02:04:24 Apparently the binary stuff is all Word template files. 02:05:22 if the strings have funny ascii chars around them, that might be a dead give away of pascal style strings with length prefixes 02:06:02 There are a few odd high-bit characters, but mostly not. 02:06:04 r2q2`` [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:20 They're either turds or some weird encoding, I think. 02:06:33 sohum_ [n=sohum@114.73.38.182] has joined #lisp 02:06:43 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:50 Oh gods. 02:06:55 it could be some record format. if the beginning of the file looks gibberish and the rest plain text, it's probably an offset table (record lookup table) 02:07:00 There's a whole programming language hidden in here. 02:07:03 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:21 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 02:08:12 It's some kind of weird declarative language for text processing. 02:08:23 any(WS) fol(WS) > do(dSubfieldEnd) store(rx) use(gItemField) 02:08:31 if you run it under a debugger (win32 equivalent of strace/ltrace) you and have it use an empty database file, you can pretty much get a feel for its expected run. 02:08:53 fooquux: that sounds awesome (: 02:08:53 -!- r2q2` [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Operation timed out] 02:08:58 fooquux: So... parsing that to lisp should get you somewhere, right? 02:09:02 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:09:07 That's the goal. 02:09:11 Time to start work. 02:09:13 Man, almost makes me want to take a stab at it. 02:09:28 that looks like a weird executable grammar 02:09:36 nyef: i'm itching too :-P 02:09:54 Go download the app and take a look at its example data. 02:09:58 any white space followed by white space? what is the first part? 02:10:29 Here's one with a comment: 02:10:32 any(WS) ';' > do(dSubfieldEnd) do(dAppendItem) store(rx) use(gItemWS) 02:10:42 c A semicolon separates multiple items in a single field; except: 02:10:49 c when not preceded by white space it is part of the item, e.g. a phrase. 02:11:28 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:11:33 Ah hah, found the documentation for the language. 02:11:35 http://www.sil.org/computing/catalog/show_software.asp?id=4 02:11:41 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 02:12:40 dang! you just missed on a good chance to reverse engineer :-P 02:12:51 Sorry to disappoint. :) 02:12:55 That's okay, there's still the chance to write a compiler! 02:13:08 fooquux: you could do this in the style of nethack conduits. documentation-less conduit, for instance. 02:14:46 conduits? 02:14:48 blitz_ [n=julian@pD95D7BE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:29 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:15:31 it just occured to me that i can read english text right to left 02:16:02 nearly every BNF grammar i have written in the last 2 years has been in arabic. so seeing the snipped above felt "wrong" 02:16:33 fooquux: conducts, sorry 02:16:45 Ah, yes. :D 02:17:18 s/snipped/snippet/ silly american accent :-P 02:18:36 "ecaps etihw" <-- i read it like that, except the letters reversed on their vertical axis 02:22:40 -!- oSand [n=heartles@118-93-73-159.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has left #lisp 02:23:27 -!- spec[afk] is now known as spec[ZzZzZzz] 02:23:34 -!- sohum [n=sohum@114.73.25.79] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:23:42 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:26:26 fooquux_ [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:47 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.235.204] has quit ["He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the aby] 02:33:48 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:34:02 -!- r2q2`` [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:56 -!- fooquux_ is now known as fooquux 02:47:54 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 02:48:31 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 02:54:56 aggieben [i=3ff63839@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f79807752d197c5c] has joined #lisp 02:56:10 -!- aggieben [i=3ff63839@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f79807752d197c5c] has quit [Client Quit] 02:56:23 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has joined #lisp 03:06:18 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@99-186-122-131.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:46 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@17.151.107.247] has joined #lisp 03:12:45 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@pD95D7BE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 03:13:05 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:16:46 netaust1n [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:58 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 03:20:28 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 03:20:34 How would i solve the problem of defining a generic function with a variable number of arguments from method to method? 03:21:17 drdo: Well, &optional and &rest come to mind... 03:21:19 cpc26_ [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 03:21:41 nyef: how does &rest work when defining methods? 03:21:54 Same way as it does anywhere else, I'd imagine. 03:22:12 You can't specialize on an optional, keyword, or rest argument, though. 03:22:26 that sucks 03:22:58 oh well, i'll just use a different name 03:22:59 :S 03:23:28 drdo: generic functions are about late binding, not random overloading. 03:23:46 davirus [n=davirus@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:15 pkhuong: overloading is nice :) 03:24:24 makes programs more readable 03:24:28 cpc26 [n=irchon@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 03:24:52 different names for different tasks. 03:24:56 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@17.151.107.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:25:03 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:26:19 -!- davirus [n=davirus@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:26:19 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@99-186-122-131.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:33 pkhuong: if you get up higher in the abstraction ladder, they might be the same task 03:26:35 davirus [n=davirus@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:01 -!- davirus [n=davirus@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:27:14 -!- cpc26_ [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [] 03:28:46 -!- cpc26 [n=irchon@72.170.156.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:29:03 I think I just found a bug in either SLIME or SBCL, and probably the former. 03:29:05 cpc26 [n=irchon@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 03:29:35 (let ((line "\tag body content")) (subseq line 0 (search " " line))) 03:29:39 returns "tag" 03:29:47 But I expected "\tag". 03:30:00 drdo: they already look different in the code. Unless you abstract that away when you use overloading too, it doesn't matter. 03:30:00 Is this a bug, or do I have a reader output problem? 03:30:16 Umm... You have an input problem: Backslashes are escape characters, rememebr? 03:30:26 Ah, yes, but then this happens. 03:30:33 (let ((line "\\tag body content")) (subseq line 0 (search " " line))) 03:30:36 returns "\\tag" 03:30:45 Same issues with overloading over arity as with using different names. 03:31:09 The latter leads me to think that there's a bug somewhere with backslashes. 03:31:18 fooquux: Yes. Now write-string it instead of printing it readably. 03:31:39 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:31:57 or princ 03:31:58 You could of course hide the dispatch in a function that calls the right g-f, but that's just sweeping the still-extant issue under the rug. 03:32:07 -!- cpc26 [n=irchon@72.170.156.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:32:20 cpc26 [n=irchon@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 03:32:26 I'm getting the same results. 03:32:28 nyef: do you think it's wise to depend on NIL having an address lower than T? 03:32:39 -!- cpc26 [n=irchon@72.170.156.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:32:52 pkhuong: Depend on how? 03:32:55 fooquux: look at the printed string, not the return value. 03:33:34 nyef: (inst call [two-arg-<]) (inst cmp [return value] (1+ nil-value)), and similar hacks. 03:33:40 One _printed_ string is "tag" (no quotes), the other is "\\tag". 03:33:41 holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:04 I'm gonna restart slime and see if it happens again. 03:34:24 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:37 fooquux: try (aref "\\tag" 1) 03:34:51 fooquux: or even (length "\\tag") 03:34:56 pkhuong: If it's an explicit dependency, and known to be enforced, then it's fine. 03:35:46 pkhuong: ISTR that T is a static symbol, immediately following NIL. 03:35:50 Restarted Emacs and Slime and now I get "tag" and "\tag" from write-string. 03:35:57 That's what I expected. 03:36:19 Something went wrong somewhere, I'll announce if it comes up again. 03:36:44 nyef: well, (def!constant nil-value (+ static-space-start n-word-bytes other-pointer-lowtag))... Every other static symbol uses an offset from nil, but the offets *could* be negative, I suppose. 03:37:24 No, because NIL is the absolute first thing created in static space. 03:37:42 If memory serves, the absolute first thing created, period. 03:40:39 -!- sohum_ is now known as sohum 03:43:01 hbock [n=hbock@96.238.4.35] has joined #lisp 03:44:46 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:44:59 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:45:47 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:45:50 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.166.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:46:16 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 03:49:06 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:50:22 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 03:55:14 ReiniUrban [n=chatzill@212-183-53-102.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:55:14 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:55:45 -!- ReiniUrban [n=chatzill@212-183-53-102.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp 03:56:03 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:27 http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=knucleotide&lang=all#about 03:56:32 I have a scenario.. I have an application which depends on a number of 3rd party libraries, the all reside in basedir/lib. Is it possible to have the asd file add all the subdirectories in basedir/lib on load, before asdf itself is ran? 03:56:42 what's up with EQUAL hash tables being orders of magnitude slower? 03:56:55 weirdo: Slower than what? 03:57:06 nyef, sxhash-gene 03:57:11 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-49-22.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:57:23 http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=knucleotide&lang=sbcl&id=4 03:57:28 weirdo: And don't forget the cost of the hash function and the comparison to check for collisions. 03:59:12 is the shootout worth contributing to? 'cause it might just as well run 4 times faster, since it's a quad-core machine 03:59:17 the string hash function is generic. This is really stupid. 03:59:28 weirdo: make it so, then. 04:00:26 soike [n=poi@ool-457e6f7e.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:45 For that matter, have you considered using (unsigned-byte 2) arrays instead of strings? 04:00:56 are waitqueues any fast 'round these parts? 04:02:23 -!- soike [n=poi@ool-457e6f7e.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 04:03:10 weirdo: I think most tasks in the shootout can be distributed with a read-only vector of work units and atomic-incf. 04:04:13 lambda [n=lambda@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:57 pkhuong, i'd rather make a worker queue with a condition variable 04:07:27 fusss_ [n=kumi@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:32 weirdo: that's tons more complexity than a LOCK ADD. It's not like you discover tasks on the fly. 04:08:24 sorry, i'm ignorant of threading 04:09:19 Wait, LOCK ADD? 04:09:39 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:10:03 How do you get either the before or the after value reliably? 04:10:19 sorry, XADD. 04:12:10 oh, incf for setting the next elt to run or what? 04:13:30 So, XADD takes a memory location and a register, stores the sum of the two in the memory location, and the original value of the memory location in the register? 04:14:08 That's kindof neat. 04:14:24 I wrote more language documentation yay. 04:15:15 http://e.imagehost.org/download/0339/QPL 04:15:16 :o 04:15:39 weirdo: it's a recent extension in sb-ext. You use it on an (unsigned-byte [machine-word-size]) structure slot to atomically increment the slot and get the old value. 04:16:37 pkhuong, then how to check whether to run another thread? simply run it from the thread that exits? 04:17:14 weirdo: What you do is have each thread use it to determine the number of the work unit to do next. 04:17:25 If it's over the limit, decrement it back and exit. 04:17:39 nyef: or don't decrement and exit. 04:17:43 yeah 04:17:59 anyone has an n-core where n > 1 to test? 04:18:07 pkhuong: Yeah, decrementing it back just keeps it clean in case you have enough threads to wrap the counter. 04:18:36 nyef: but if you don't do anything stupid (in this case) and have exactly 1 (worker) thread/core, wrap-around isn't really an issue. 04:19:19 It's the principle of the thing. :-P 04:20:17 Imagine what'd happen if we had an 18-bit machine with 64k processors! 04:21:10 ... Was that one of the connection machines? 04:23:15 Damnit, now you've got me wondering who the hell else would build such a thing. 04:23:37 -!- fusss_ [n=kumi@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 04:23:43 Since the classic architecture for scientific computing was a 36-bit machine, twice the width of the 18 you mentioned. 04:24:00 I think one of the very first CMs worked 1 bit at a time with up to 64k procs, so you could theoretically decide to build an 18 bit Lisp? 04:24:15 I just took plausible numbers that were close enough (: 04:24:20 Heh. 04:25:00 Take a 36-bit machine and pretend it's an 18-bit SIMD system? 04:25:53 you'd have to go with 17 bit for 100% software SWAR. 04:26:04 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:26:08 Yeah, I guess. 04:26:20 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:31 weirdo: what do you need tested? i have n = 8 04:26:38 Maybe something could be done with some of the Ivory systems? They were 40-bit or thereabouts, right? 04:26:54 hbock, once i write the code. i need to fix my own library to use condition variables 04:27:09 hbock, i'll msg you with the code in an hour or so, it won't take long :) 04:27:56 sure! :) as long as I can test with SBCL 04:27:57 gottesmm_ [n=gottesmm@99-186-122-131.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:02 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@99-186-122-131.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:28:28 why yes of course! 04:28:35 argh. Generic comparison (eql, =, <, >) doesn't show up in backtraces anymore. 04:29:18 pkhuong: even with (debug 3)? 04:30:04 hbock: yeah. The call location isn't tagged in my new definitions. 04:31:51 -!- gottesmm_ [n=gottesmm@99-186-122-131.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:39:09 chatzilla displays >) as an alien! 04:39:58 >) 04:40:12 Good mornign. 04:40:28 morning tic 04:42:21 http://i43.tinypic.com/2dkdatz.jpg 04:43:00 done with my stuff. now let's hack! 04:43:10 it's gonna be fun if they reject my change for whatever reason 04:43:34 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 04:47:51 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 04:48:44 nite 04:48:44 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 04:50:42 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 04:58:45 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A2620E.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 05:07:32 -!- Modius [n=Modius@davidp4.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:07:40 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 05:11:18 weirdo pasted "simple thread worker for SBCL" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73042 05:11:31 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:11:32 is it correct enough? :) 05:12:51 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:03 now time to hack stupid k-nucleotide stuff 05:13:23 Jaearess [n=jrs@wsip-70-184-232-189.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:23 awayekos_ [n=anekos@pl1080.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:17:31 -!- awayekos [n=anekos@pl1080.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:18:02 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:19:18 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1DD0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:52 bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:34 -!- segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1D1A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:31 "Analyze and test one open source AI program ... belongs to ... Probabilistic Reasoning, Ontology Reasoning, First-Logic Reasoning, Theorem Prover, Logic Programming". Anyone care to suggest an active open source AI project in Lisp that would be interesting to analyze? 05:22:41 -!- tic_ is now known as tic 05:23:17 you could write it first :-) 05:23:50 kpreid: Heh. Against the rules. I'm sure that's a later assignment -- this is more about taking a hard look at something that's already out there. 05:23:54 sorry, don't have any relevant info. (by "First-Logic" do theyt actually mean "First-Order Logic"?) 05:24:40 kpreid: Yes, I'm sure that is what is meant. Probably a typo. 05:24:52 weirdo: what are you doing there? 05:25:08 pkhuong, what you described 05:25:40 opt9 [n=user@59.7.205.138] has joined #lisp 05:26:05 What I meant was: keep a global work queue, as a write-once vector and an atomically incremented index. Spawn n workers, join-thread on them. 05:26:40 Each worker: gets the next work unit from the shared queue via atomic-incf. If there's no more work left, simply return (thus killing the thread). 05:27:12 aja: ACL2 could be interesting 05:27:20 aja: Krystof's paiprolog? 05:27:45 why would you use atomic-incf on a single-writer resource? 05:28:06 kpreid: Yeah, I'd already considered Norvig's implementation of Prolog. 05:28:13 pkhuong, atomic-incf is being done in all threads 05:28:27 rottcodd: Hmmmm. That does look interesting. Thanks. 05:28:30 it's in wrap-thread, which attaches itself to all threads 05:28:37 the problem is in deciding whether all work is done 05:28:50 sleeping sucks, maybe a semaphore or a waitq, hmm 05:29:50 weirdo: that code doesn't make sense. The point of using a work queue is to only spawn exactly as many threads as you need, once. 05:31:46 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:31:57 uh, once? 05:32:16 drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:23 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:32:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_pool_pattern 05:32:45 that's what i implemented 05:33:08 except that threads can only be added at the start 05:33:28 "Typically, there are many more tasks than threads." 05:34:24 Can you declare types of variables bound with DESTRUCTURING-BIND? 05:35:07 destructuring-bind lambda-list expression declaration* form* 05:35:27 excellent, thanks. 05:35:42 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-200-32.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:36:00 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-200-32.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:14 -!- opt9 [n=user@59.7.205.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:40:57 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:31 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:41:33 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:16 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 05:47:04 pkhuong annotated #73042 with "Simple untested work queue" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73042#1 05:49:07 pkhuong annotated #73042 with "Stupid bug" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73042#2 05:50:32 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:51:33 won't 'join-thread execute them sequentially? 05:51:49 weirdo: you need one thread per cpu. Thread pooling ensures that you don't use more than that, but also recycles threads instead of spawning one per task. 05:52:09 sorry, i'm wrong, got map-into wrong 05:52:40 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E444BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:57 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 06:00:40 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:03:53 Why can't LAST be a generalized reference (setf place)? 06:05:38 fooquux: sure you don't want (car (last ...))? 06:06:55 Actually (cdr (last ...)). That should work. 06:06:58 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46B31.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:08:06 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:14:17 ok 06:14:20 i wrote the code 06:14:58 weirdo pasted "k-nucleotide" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73046 06:15:51 weirdo: your pastes have double escaping issues 06:15:59 yep, xml-rpc bug 06:16:44 weirdo pasted "k-nucleotide" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73047 06:19:15 weirdo annotated #73047 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73047#1 06:19:27 hbock, how about it? :) 06:20:59 alright, what do i need to do? :) 06:21:10 1. make a lisp file from the paste 06:21:24 2. download the input from the paste 06:21:29 3. download the output to some file 06:21:37 4. load the lisp file 06:21:42 that'll give you a sublinear speed up for various reasons: 1. number of threads isn't adaptive wrt # of cpus 2. the work units are gross-grained and unlikely to represent the same amount of work; the program may end up waiting after a single task for a while. 06:21:43 5. run (test) 06:22:58 it should create an identical output to your saved one (generated in /tmp/output.txt) 06:23:25 pkhuong, shootout box is a quad and there are 8 threads 06:23:50 if anything, number of cores on shootout will increase with time and there's no more stuff to run 06:24:03 magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has joined #lisp 06:24:51 weirdo: actually, no, there are 7 computational threads. In any case, you still have more threads than CPUs, which means gratuitous context switching. Pretty much every parallelised entry takes the number of cores into account. 06:24:59 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 06:25:29 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 06:27:42 -!- fallenz [i=Fallen_@c-71-193-112-7.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:28:34 pkhuong, why loop in make-worker-thunk? isn't it enough to tail-call the next index? 06:28:52 weirdo: tail call what? 06:30:31 weirdo: alright if i annotate your paste? 06:30:37 sure, np 06:31:26 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 06:31:55 hbock annotated #73047 with "8 cores." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73047#2 06:32:24 great captcha ;) 06:33:04 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.134.36] has joined #lisp 06:33:52 hbock, then, could you please run it in a loop for a couple hundred times and compare the timings with this code? http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=knucleotide&lang=sbcl&id=4 06:34:25 maybe more than hundred, at least a couple dozen seconds 06:34:47 then, if the difference isn't in orders of magnitude, my code sucks :) 06:35:03 wait, 8fold speedup isn't an "order of magnitude" 06:35:10 well, you get the idea 06:35:23 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 06:35:30 maybe rerun it couple of times to see if there's much deviation 06:37:10 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:19 pkhuong, your code is good, it's late, it was a thinko 06:38:02 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.252.56] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:38:05 pkhuong, want to submit it? 06:39:00 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:34 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:39:41 100 loops = 8.8s 06:39:57 it doesn't seem like it's using all 8 cores all that well 06:40:24 about 30-60% usage on each, fairly consistently 06:41:06 consistent times though 06:41:26 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:45:25 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:46:50 hbock, how's the original version? 06:50:09 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-231-97.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 06:51:13 Atomsk [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:51:45 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:52:13 beach [n=user@58.186.166.9] has joined #lisp 06:52:17 Good afternoon. 06:52:39 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:55:36 heya beach. 06:58:17 can i confess that i don't hate c# 06:58:43 just between yous and me. 06:58:58 drewc: Sure. My colleagues says it's not half bad. 06:59:33 i don't like it... but given a choice between it and, say, java ... it seems obvious to me. 06:59:57 drewc and C# sittin' in a tree.. 07:00:08 But you can always use Lisp on a Java VM... :D 07:00:32 fooquux: L# is not terrible. 07:00:34 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:00:43 -!- Atomsk is now known as ace4016 07:00:50 Apparently, C# contains some extensions making functional programming at least sort of possible. 07:01:07 beach: macros are almost sort of possible as well. 07:01:15 real macros i mean. 07:01:20 L# is apparently ungoogleable. 07:01:30 they finally added in lambdas :P 07:01:44 fooquux: a lisp for the .net vm 07:01:45 fooquux: try l sharp 07:02:09 fooquux: it's not clojure though. 07:02:30 meaning ... it's not anything greater than existing lisps. 07:02:58 i've seen to much not to like CL 07:03:10 C, Perl, Ruby, posix shell 07:03:23 so it seems i've got low standards 07:03:26 Is "modern lisp dialect" now the way people say "has lexical rather than dynamic scope"? 07:03:31 i also like posix shell 07:03:55 well .. posix shell + 'local' 07:04:21 shell is okay, except for when you have to work with anything besides strings. 07:04:48 fooquux: if you have to work with anything besides strings, you should not be using shell. 07:04:53 Yep. 07:05:09 even using only strings is counterproductive 07:05:21 But it's amazing what people will _try_ to do in shell with non-stringy data. 07:05:30 well... return values are important to. 07:05:32 any manipulation requires spawning a subprocess 07:05:35 which is very expensive 07:05:39 too. 07:05:51 if you are worried about expense... 07:05:56 (no shell) 07:06:02 ...then i should be doing it in CL :) 07:06:44 i find that posix shell, by which i mean ksh, is the best environment for... wait for it .. scripting posix systems. :D 07:07:07 -!- _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:07:09 i do not like perl. 07:07:25 I do not (gasp!) like Vim ['s internals]. 07:07:39 time to do a Lisp shell in mcclim with a pipe abstraction 07:07:43 that handles any data type :) 07:08:01 maybe rip off a thing or two from microsoft's shell 07:08:15 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-231-97.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:08:46 mcclim listener + some abstractions and you're there 07:09:35 Look carefully at the LispM listener. 07:09:48 the problem is having components :) corporations like sun or msft pay people to write libraries in their languages 07:09:51 There are some things it got right very well, but there are also a few things it got very wrong. 07:10:08 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:10:31 got any docs or screenshots or screencasts? 07:10:35 holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:54 http://lemonodor.com/archives/000103.html 07:11:35 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-29-181.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 07:12:40 thanks 07:14:12 Yay, my interpreter can be cross-compiled to a win32 executable now. 07:14:30 Quadrescence, need some help writing a GC? 07:14:50 I probably would. 07:15:04 Quadrescence, put the code somewhere and i'll send you diffs :) 07:15:15 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:15:42 weirdo: Perhaps I'll take you up on that (after I clean up and write more comments and whatever) 07:15:42 weirdo: also http://lemonodor.com/archives/000441.html 07:15:57 weirdo: Did/do you want to see the documentation I've written so far? 07:16:32 Quadrescence, sure 07:16:39 Quadrescence, do you plan on CL compliance? 07:17:15 weirdo: I have no idea what I plan on really. Actually, I have some idea, but nothing is clear. 07:17:38 I was originally just writing my own dialect, but I've thought about implementing CL compliance maybe after/alongside it. 07:17:46 Quadrescence, i could write you an unwind-protect, then a GC 07:19:42 weirdo: Here is something I've been typing up today: http://e.imagehost.org/download/0658/QPL 07:20:03 It's by no means done/complete, and possibly somewhat inaccurate (though it shouldn't be) 07:20:51 there's already a Q language, though 07:21:15 What a shame. :) 07:21:38 The name doesn't really matter at the moment. 07:21:46 what's up with data types lacking cons cells? 07:21:47 But maybe I'll rename it to Clozhure. ;) ;) 07:21:57 weirdo: What do you mean? 07:21:58 I thought PI was the multiplication operator like SIGMA is the addition operator. 07:21:59 oh 07:22:05 hah, yeah, didn't write that. 07:22:12 fooquux: It is. 07:22:29 You have it listed under SUB. 07:22:33 Hah, thanks, it's an error. 07:22:45 As you see, it's nothing final. :) 07:22:50 Quadrescence, i'm more interested in implementation than interface 07:22:52 ;-) 07:23:21 weirdo: Of course ;) 07:27:31 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:34:27 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.158.200] has joined #lisp 07:37:18 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:38:00 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:39:25 merAch [n=ray@70.102.172.126] has joined #lisp 07:41:34 Quadrescence, what do you use for PDFs? 07:41:48 latex? openoffice? texinfo? :) 07:42:09 pdflatex 07:43:15 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.158.200] has quit ["Football is like chess, only without the dice.  Lukas Podolski"] 07:44:17 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.169.62] has joined #lisp 07:45:10 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-29-181.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:49 ok. 07:59:15 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:39 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:46 Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 08:01:14 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-26-27.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 08:01:50 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:09:03 mnd [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:05 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:21:21 -!- mnd is now known as dnm 08:24:23 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 08:26:45 hey 08:27:00 so i found a way to debug recursive macroexpansion 08:27:18 (defmacro with-debug (debug-info &body body) 08:27:18 `(progn . ,body)) 08:28:01 weirdo: *macroexpand-hook* 08:29:11 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:30:00 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:30:04 i was thinking about having presentations in slime macroexpand buffer... 08:30:58 but i can't have that, so i'll serialize every instance to lists... 08:31:16 no, that's not worth the effort :| 08:32:18 this macroexpand-hook is pretty nice, eh 08:32:19 thanks 08:40:19 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 08:53:14 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:03:23 nicolas [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:58 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 09:11:10 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.104.124] has joined #lisp 09:12:55 tyrelle [n=vicky@CPE-124-191-104-83.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:14:02 antoni [n=antoni@137.pool85-53-17.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 09:14:24 -!- tyrelle [n=vicky@CPE-124-191-104-83.vic.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 09:15:13 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:16:52 -!- spec[ZzZzZzz] is now known as mrSpec 09:17:09 Hello 09:17:22 hello mrSpec 09:17:40 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.59.196] has joined #lisp 09:24:27 Krystof [n=csr21@82-35-80-105.cable.ubr03.dals.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:25:20 -!- magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:35 magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has joined #lisp 09:26:06 -!- magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has left #lisp 09:26:11 _magnus_ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has joined #lisp 09:26:43 <_magnus_> Is there a way to see how much memory a thread uses in sbcl? 09:28:35 tyrelle [n=vicky@cpe-74-78-88-209.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:37 hi 09:28:48 anyone worked on genetic algos 09:33:09 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.104.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:33:16 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:34 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 09:38:36 tyrelle: Well, this channel is more about the Lisp programming language. 09:39:07 <_magnus_> I can't seem to wrap my head around usockets, or rather streams, and bidirectional handling. It is apparently possible to use streams for two way communication, in my case between two threads. But I am not sure how to go about creating and using bidirectional streams. 09:40:15 -!- awayekos_ is now known as anekos 09:40:51 beach: so cant GA be done in LISP? 09:41:09 it's a language for ai afterall, i'm sure it'\s been done before 09:41:15 Well, you can't expect too much from people who can't spell "can't". 09:41:18 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:41:41 tyrelle: phones can be programmed in Java. It is not because of that that it is appropriate to discuss phones in a Java channel. 09:41:47 <_magnus_> Sure it can be done in lisp. It can be done in must languages. :) 09:42:04 <_magnus_> s/must/most 09:42:16 tyrelle: and no, Lisp is considered a general-purpose programming language, not a language for AI. 09:42:18 beach: but this is about algorithms 09:42:29 algos are not language specific 09:42:41 <_magnus_> I recall one article re genetic algorithms on reddit.com. 09:42:44 tyrelle: I don't follow your logic. 09:42:47 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:47 beach: funny you say that but think it's inappropriate to discuss algorithms 09:42:55 neither do i follow yours 09:43:11 you claim it;s a general purpose language but discussing algorithms that can be done in LISP is a no no 09:43:12 .. 09:43:13 tyrelle: I am just trying to explain to you why you might not get good answers here. 09:43:21 ok 09:43:24 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:43:34 tyrelle: Please try to write coherently. If you have an intelligent question, please ask it. 09:44:08 well has there been genetic algorithms written in LISP 09:44:20 If you mean 'have', then yes. 09:44:22 for anything at all or more particularly for NP related hard problems 09:44:24 oh 09:44:29 give me an example? 09:44:35 No. 09:44:36 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 09:44:49 <_3b> google can give lots of examples 09:44:59 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 09:45:05 If you are too stupid to use a search engine to do basic research, then I am certainly not going to do it for you. 09:45:11 Try to make the next question an intelligent one. 09:45:27 gee 09:45:29 anuj [n=anuj@210.212.55.3] has joined #lisp 09:45:34 Stop whining. 09:45:34 where do you people come from 09:45:38 stop bitching then 09:45:40 <_3b> Zhivago: a less confrontational approach might lead to the desired result faster :) 09:45:49 From the land of the literate. 09:45:50 i bet you're an op else you wouldn't get so provocative 09:46:00 tyrelle: Do you have an intelligent question to ask? 09:46:06 land of the literate? 09:46:12 i just did 09:46:16 apparently you don't have an intelligent replyt 09:46:31 Which of your questions do you think was intelligent? 09:46:36 if a discussion has to take place, a condescending tone is not going to add to anything 09:46:49 tyrelle: Get a dictionary and look up 'condescending'. 09:46:56 but at the same time you expect intelligent conversation, thats pretty fucking contradictory 09:47:13 Look up contradictory while you're at it. 09:47:17 get off your high horse and work on your dialect over irc 09:47:29 Add 'dialect' to the list. 09:47:31 <_3b> Zhivago: does this have anything to do with lisp? 09:47:40 I'm waiting for an intelligent question. 09:47:52 <_3b> Zhivago: but you seem to be actively discouraging one 09:47:58 you are a patronizing, condscending asshole, there's no to make it seem like i gave you any reasons for it 09:48:13 +need 09:48:19 Tyrelle: Look up condescending before you misuse it again. 09:48:26 man fuck you 09:48:30 lol 09:48:40 look at you even type, like it's some literary contest 09:48:40 Sorry, you're not my type. Find someone else to man fuck. 09:48:45 <_magnus_> Anyone of you two can ignore the other one. 09:48:46 stop typing like it's a resume 09:48:52 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:49:00 That would be condescending. 09:49:19 _magnus_: you did see how it started eh? this stupid fuck thinks he can talk trash and just get away with it because, i assume he's some regular? 09:49:21 or an op 09:49:24 which one is it 09:49:31 Tyrelle: Do you have an intelligent question? 09:49:41 i didnt give him any reasons to be condescending and yet he decides to be a total schmuck 09:49:46 Zhivago: dude fuck off 09:49:58 tyrelle: Still don't know what 'condescending' means? 09:49:59 <_3b> tyrelle: responsing to him isn't helping your cause. 09:50:03 if you had been polite about it like the first time you asked, maybe i'd give you a question 09:50:22 _3b: ain't no chickens here but us, i'll live 09:50:22 So you're upset about being told to do your own basic research? 09:50:32 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 09:50:35 tyrelle: Calm down, please! 09:50:36 Did you even try to search for "genetic algorithm" and lisp? 09:50:53 stop trying to convince me that you had some fucking right here to go on a patronizing condescending rampage 09:51:02 " intelligent question " 09:51:05 <_magnus_> tyrelle: I simply gave a suggestion, no more. :) 09:51:07 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 09:51:08 <_3b> tyrelle: as you guessed, you are the one that gets kicked first though, so you have more reason to be nice :) 09:51:12 i asked, i asked if you could give an example 09:51:14 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has been kicked from #lisp 09:51:20 -!- Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 09:51:58 anekos_ [n=anekos@pl1080.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:52:06 <_3b> well, that was productive :( 09:52:25 <_magnus_> Indeed 09:53:21 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.59.196] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:53:36 oklopol [n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 09:53:37 <_magnus_> Does this kind of event happen frequently? 09:53:48 Not really. 09:53:53 <_3b> more than it should unfortunately 09:54:02 Usually the trolls are of a higher calibre. 09:54:16 <_3b> didn't seem like a troll to me 09:54:40 <_magnus_> Well, he turned into a troll later on, imo 09:54:45 Unable to put "genetic algorithm" and lisp into Google and hit "I'm feeling lucky"? 09:55:08 <_magnus_> Well, what's the harm in saying just that to him then? Just saying 09:55:15 I did. 09:55:23 <_3b> not very well 09:56:27 <_magnus_> But only after insulting his intelligence, apparently. Some people are sensitive when it comes to intelligence. 09:57:59 <_3b> yeah, asking for specifics would probably have been better than intelligence 10:06:54 is there a channel for general lisp? 10:07:37 one not focusing on CL or scheme, but on S-expression languages in general? 10:07:56 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl1080.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:32 -!- antoni [n=antoni@137.pool85-53-17.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:10:15 Some people will recommend other channels for scheme and so on. 10:10:58 cads: I don't know the answer to your question, but I think this one is appropriate as long as it is not about any *specific* dialect (other than CL). 10:10:59 If you have intelligent, general lisp oriented conversation, then I doubt anyone will be upset. 10:24:19 -!- mrSpec is now known as Spec[afk] 10:26:41 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:27:12 _magnus_: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=ef8f1f44b6bc90464a10bfaa03064ab8.squirrel%40webmail.aapopfiets.nl 10:27:28 -!- _magnus_ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:27:48 _magnus_: that's what I did (although sbcl has a bug, as that thread shows) 10:27:59 _magnus_ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has joined #lisp 10:32:00 oh nice timing 10:32:09 Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-4424576.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 10:32:12 _magnus_: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=ef8f1f44b6bc90464a10bfaa03064ab8.squirrel%40webmail.aapopfiets.nl 10:32:16 _magnus_: that's what I did (although sbcl has a bug, as that thread shows) 10:38:22 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb36f0.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 10:40:27 <_magnus_> koning_robot: Thanks alot for the example. :) 10:42:07 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:46:09 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 10:46:17 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 10:49:43 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:46 vasa [n=vasa@mm-132-85-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 10:49:52 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:50:35 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:53:44 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:58 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:55:30 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:46 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 10:58:34 what's the "professional" name for a sole supertype of a type hierarchy, like type T in cl? 11:00:12 I think it's actually called T. 11:00:25 (or was that the T-upside-down, ie. bottom?) 11:00:37 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:50 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:58 "top" ? 11:04:33 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.137.166] has joined #lisp 11:04:38 maybe "root-mixin" is a good name for a mixin that by its membership in *used-components*, is added to the root-type (like T, but for my class hierarchy)? 11:05:02 can't decide whether object orientation's a good idea. i think i'd rather use prototypes :/ 11:05:40 cofounder [n=cofounde@117.193.194.41] has joined #lisp 11:05:41 there's no point in instantiating objects since there's only a bunch of methods called on them in the same order 11:05:42 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:06:02 but creating a prototype metaclass is tad overkill 11:06:18 anyone from india 11:06:29 praise ganesh! 11:08:07 weirdo: what are you doing, anyway? 11:08:40 hefner, a pattern matcher with pluggable forms/operators, everything modular with declared dependencies, even variables 11:09:05 i switched to clos now that i reinvented message-passing with lambdas 11:09:41 and now everything is a "component" 11:09:45 be it a "nesting" (don't ask me) a "form" with subtype "operator" or "root-mixin" 11:10:08 it's expected to still generate efficient machine code 11:10:11 *hefner* wonders if he should repeat the question 11:10:38 doing, eh? 11:11:00 figuring out the optimal protocol for stuff 11:13:18 maybe there exists a communication problem 11:13:49 Modius [n=Modius@davidp4.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:07 what stuff? 11:14:30 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:15:13 defining operators, adding ways to extend the system (e.g. variables), figuring out how to make the macroexpansion process inspectable 11:16:53 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.134.36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:17:04 so is this for a project, or is this object/message/lambda system the project itself? 11:17:42 the core's already well-defined, now i'm writing shipped operators 11:18:02 njsg_ [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 11:18:38 and, not, or, *, +, list, cons, vector, quote, typep, satisfies, dolist 11:18:53 *Phoodus* also wonders if he should repeat the question ;) 11:19:16 the matcher is a project in itself 11:19:24 ah, ok 11:19:40 i plan to use it, but it's going to be tarballed as a distinct system 11:20:06 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:20:16 -!- cofounder [n=cofounde@117.193.194.41] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 11:20:16 so it turns out hobby projects are *way* more interesting than paid work 11:24:07 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:25:21 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:25:30 robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:26:46 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 11:27:47 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:56 -!- Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["Go Canada!"] 11:29:51 nostoi [n=nostoi@19.Red-83-54-13.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:29 sunkencity_ [n=sunkenci@h121n2c1o1036.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:30 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.70.2] has joined #lisp 11:31:53 cofounder [n=cofounde@117.193.194.41] has joined #lisp 11:32:24 when making a function why do I get an unused error if i just use the parameter to the function in the let assignment 11:32:42 unused variable error that is 11:33:15 i don't 11:33:16 <_3b> missing parens in the let? 11:33:27 and it's not an error, it's a warning 11:33:36 (lambda (x) (let ((foo x)) foo)) 11:34:41 weirdo: which state are u 11:34:46 maybe missing parens 11:34:46 *_magnus_* get no warnings with that func 11:35:17 cofounder, i was just joking, i'm not indian 11:35:33 (let (foo x) foo) would declare 2 new variables "foo" and "x" both set to nil, shadowing and not using your lambda variable 11:35:36 (defun rotate-right (card) 11:35:36 (let ((edges (getf card :edge))) 11:35:40 works now 11:35:44 ok, no probs 11:35:48 I dunno what I did wrong 11:36:14 sometimes it seems that C-c C-c stops sending over the new stuff to slime 11:36:29 I restarted emacs and find 11:36:32 fine 11:36:53 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:37:16 can I restart the process completely or what to do? 11:37:19 C-c C-c just compiles, it doesn't do a load. C-c C-k will do compile & load 11:37:29 ah 11:37:54 <_3b> it doesn't? 11:37:57 and C-c C-l will do load without compile 11:38:25 *_3b* thought C-c C-c compiles + loads a single function 11:38:27 but it seems to affect the slime process up to the point where I do get an errror 11:38:35 then no effect 11:38:43 _3b: oh, it might 11:38:50 *Phoodus* doesn't use that one often 11:39:11 <_3b> i uver use it, since it is easier to type than M-C-x :) 11:39:15 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 11:39:16 <_3b> *over use 11:39:50 xemacs + slime + clisp, C-c C-c doesn't load anything 11:40:25 I made a new (defun a (x) (+ x 3)), did C-c C-c with the cursor at the start, middle, and end of it, and a function "a" is never found in the repl 11:40:36 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:41:13 Phoodus: sxemacs + slime + sbcl and it's right in the repl after a C-c C-c 11:41:25 yeah, i was in the wrong package :-P 11:41:31 s n/m 11:41:37 :) 11:42:11 :) 11:44:59 <_magnus_> Hmm, is there a way to pass a list to, say, make-broadcast-stream? Since make-broadcast-stream do not accept lists, I need to transform my list of arguments into single arguments somehow... I've not yet grasped macros totally it seems either... 11:45:41 clhs apply 11:45:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 11:46:15 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:46:49 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:47:31 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CA4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:41 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.166.9] has left #lisp 11:48:52 <_magnus_> Ah yes of course. Thanks alot. :) 11:49:47 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@19.Red-83-54-13.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 11:51:19 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:51:20 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:56:19 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.70.2] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:58:46 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:40 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:00:23 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-179-109-100.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:00:58 asdf-install horrifies me. no one checks gpg signatures. before someone finally notices cliki page has been "compromised", dozens of systems have backdoors in place 12:01:31 i dare not to write about it publically, lest someone decides to put this conjecture to test 12:01:53 you just did 12:02:15 compromised systems of lispers are of more value than a mere botnet zombie, having proprietary software's sources, valuable email etc 12:02:37 #lisp ain't *that* public, i was thinking more of cll-public 12:03:11 I think programmers attribute far more value to their sources and email than any criminal would ;) 12:03:14 unless there's a usable web-of-trust system in place, i won't asdf-installablize my stuff *shrug* 12:03:41 i certainly wouldn't appreciate read-write access to my stuff 12:03:46 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1C95.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:04:13 read-only would be only a slight disaster, read-write is panic-mode 12:04:46 I meant the whole "compromised systems of lispers are of more value". 12:05:14 if someone got perverse for the sake of it, it could ruin lives 12:05:49 well yeah, but lisper's systems are no more valuable to destroy than some non-techie's quickbooks files, photographs, or emails 12:06:05 imagine mailing bosses with profanity and/or quitting-the-job, having crypto keys, with root access possibility to sniff passwords... 12:07:21 it's not that far-fetched, certain internet interests take pleasure in "ruination" 12:07:58 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.70.2] has joined #lisp 12:09:03 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:55 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:12:53 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:47 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.242.28] has joined #lisp 12:15:01 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:48 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:20:22 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:19 josemanuel [n=josemanu@67.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:22:36 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.70.2] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:23:19 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.137.166] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:25:03 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:26:28 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:46 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:31:22 antoni [n=antoni@123.pool85-53-15.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 12:32:01 md` [n=user@85-135-228-236.adsl.slovanet.sk] has joined #lisp 12:35:39 -!- Modius [n=Modius@davidp4.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:37:46 -!- njsg_ [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["settings testing"] 12:38:31 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 12:40:37 weirdo: the whole thing is shambolic, no argument there 12:41:04 -!- _magnus_ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:41:43 herbert [i=herbert@114.240.125.252] has joined #lisp 12:43:29 Hi, I have a newbie question about sbcl. When I start sbcl inside slime, I can evaluate the expression (use-package 'sb-bsd-sockets) successfully. While I start sbcl directly from command line by typing "sbcl", evaluating the same expression results in an error that the symbol 'sb-bsd-sockets doesn't designate any package name. Why? 12:44:00 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:44:01 (require 'sb-bsd-sockets) 12:44:52 weirdo: Thank you, that works. Is there something like load-path in sbcl? 12:45:15 herbert: SBCL's swank backend needs sb-bsd-sockets that's why it's already required when you use Slime. 12:45:32 just like sb-introspect and sb-cltl2 12:45:33 tcr: Oh, I see. Thank you! 12:46:40 herbert: I'd expect that you could use sb-bsd-sockets also in the :depends-on clause of a DEFSYSTEM. That's the prefered way of doing it if you have additional dependencies. 12:50:57 tcr: I will when I finish learning how to use package. Thank you very much! :-D 12:51:27 herbert: You're reading PCL? 12:51:57 angel_ [n=antani@host74-228-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:52:23 tcr: Yes, I'm reading chapter 20, one chapter before package introduction :) 12:53:11 -!- angel_ [n=antani@host74-228-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 12:55:13 anekos__ [n=anekos@pl296.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:00:07 -!- Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-4424576.home.otenet.gr] has quit [] 13:05:11 -!- cofounder [n=cofounde@117.193.194.41] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:05:45 manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d034fc8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:04 cpape [n=user@p5484D20C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:46 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B41C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:49 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 13:09:16 -!- anekos_ [n=anekos@pl1080.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:11:46 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:13:42 hey, so what do i do to preserve *print-circle* on my own print-methods? 13:15:16 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 13:16:17 setf it or bind it 13:17:28 preserve? 13:17:30 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 13:17:32 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B78C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:18:01 tcr, i need to print some stuff recursively and make sure stuff's assigned to their #n 13:18:37 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:26:15 helper function? 13:26:43 but i don't know their #n 13:26:50 it's printer's internal state 13:26:58 thought there was some api in clhs 13:29:26 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d034fc8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [] 13:30:11 does anyone know if SBCL supports sendfile on linux systems? (i.e. the system call that takes a file descriptor for a disk file and a file descriptor for a network socket and does a zero-copy of the file to the socket) 13:32:00 -!- bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:34:04 drewc: thanks for fixing cl.net locale setup 13:35:40 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:37:00 jbjohns, sbcl supports calling libc functions 13:37:07 directly? 13:37:12 yes! 13:38:37 (cffi:foreign-funcall "strlen" :string "foo" :unsigned-long) => 3 13:39:43 that's cffi, not SBCL directly 13:40:09 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:31 beach [n=user@58.186.166.9] has joined #lisp 13:40:34 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:40:34 Good evening. 13:43:14 What is this anyway? I go out to dinner, and nothing interesting has happened during my absence. 13:43:18 I have been busy. 13:43:25 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 13:43:52 schme: Yeah, well, you are not personally responsible for all the progress on #lisp. 13:43:55 I've been cursing over Vim's internals, does that count? (can't reach a function's argument through ECL) 13:44:06 beach: Well. I think I am, but ok :) 13:44:30 OK, thanks guys. I feel better already! :) 13:45:30 Now I have to find out how to pay the taxi driver who gave me change for 100kVND even though I just gave her 50kVND. 13:45:43 What strange currency is that? 13:45:52 Vietnamese Dong 13:45:54 z0d, sendfile interface can as well be done with cffi 13:46:07 I see. 13:46:10 *schme* orders a book then. 13:46:51 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-201-40-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:55 schme, anything interesting? 13:47:02 tic: Always! 13:47:22 ordering non-interesting books seems dumb ;) 13:47:25 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 13:47:26 *tic* listens to Orient Express, speaking of French people in Eastern countries. 13:47:43 schme, that is a very wise choice of you! now gimme the title, foo! 13:47:55 tic: Is this the name of an opera or of a rock group? 13:48:42 weirdo: ok, so not directly, but it can be done with ffi. That's why I was asking if SBCL supports it, I knew I could always use FFI 13:48:45 tic: "Smallcaphandboken: Hur du handlar och värderar aktier i mindre bolag" and "Notes from the Metalevel2 13:48:48 eh 13:48:50 2==" 13:49:11 or is cffi built into SBCL? 13:49:28 beach, that'd be the song Orient Express by Jean-Michel Jarre; think it's on the Concerts in China album. 13:50:01 schme, the second book sounds interesting. 13:50:09 Ah, I see. That's one of the albums I don't have. :( 13:50:17 jbjohns cffi is just a library 13:50:39 speaking of Jarre. Playing in Malmoe 11/05/2009 13:50:43 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.129.98] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:54 schme, 12th here in Gothenburg. Still pondering whether to order tickets or not. 13:50:56 there is sb-alien if you only care about sbcl 13:50:59 xristos: Right, as is asdf, etc. which SBCL comes with, right? I mean, I know it's not in SBCL source code, but I mean I don't have to do anything to get ASDF, it's there 13:51:05 tic: The show up there will not be very good. 13:51:10 cffi is not part of sbcl 13:51:13 ok 13:51:20 hi guys, have a question I believe you already have answered ... ASDF (thanks to ASDF-BINARY-LOCATIONS) stores all fasls in ~/.fasls/...., but when I compile file with SLIME, it goes right next to .lisp file... Is there any sensible way how to tell SLIME (or something else) to store it to the same place as ASDF-BINARY-LOCATIONS? 13:51:33 if you don't care about portability between different lisp implementations, you can use sb-alien which comes with sbcl 13:51:37 tic: They're not expensive either :) 13:51:38 and is documented in the manual 13:51:41 I have a project in mind where I only plan to target SBCL, I don't expect to need it 13:51:49 cool, thanks, I'll look into that 13:51:55 rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-58-36.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:51:55 schme, ... why won't it be good? :/ 13:52:03 tic: Too far up north. 13:52:15 schme, meh! 13:52:40 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B41C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:54:15 everybody is happy with fasls mixed with source files when doing slime compile file? 13:54:19 strange... 13:54:53 I guess I am missing something, since when I load my lib with ASDF, then I have fasls on 2 different places 13:54:56 and that sucks 13:55:16 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4cd1.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:25 md, you could simply not use asdf-binary-locations 13:55:49 but then all fasls will be always mixed with sources 13:55:57 whats wrong with that 13:56:22 hmm, I guess this is a style preference question 13:57:40 also, it's much easier to use tab completion in emacs file opening, if there's only a .lisp of that name 13:57:53 (don't get me started with ECL on that one ;) 0 13:58:02 and, for example, when you use more than one Lisp, you end up like 1 .lisp file, and more binary files with different suffix for each implementation 13:58:22 I think separating is good 13:58:36 md`: Just hack slime-compile-file to pass the extra argument for the location of the fasl. 13:59:35 And if you're lucky, someone will already have done that, and all you need to do is figure out how to use it. 13:59:40 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 13:59:55 seems like a good idea 13:59:59 thank, will check that 14:02:32 md`: There has been work to make the fasl output dir customizable 14:03:00 md`: I don't think the patch has been applied, it was sent to slime-devel within the last three months, I think. 14:03:14 hmm, I am not subscribed to that 14:03:28 md`: The mailinglist is available through gmane. No need to subscribe. 14:03:35 ok 14:03:43 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.129.98] has joined #lisp 14:03:49 If you dig up the posting, reply to it, and say that you like it. 14:03:53 Guest47303 [n=a@5ad4f73d.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:30 Iirc, I didn't apply the patch because I wanted to look at asdf-binary-locations first, and I wanted to see if such a feature should perhaps make use of it if it's there. 14:06:37 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-111-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:41 I.e. perhaps the output directory should be coalesced with the one of asdf-binary-location so the user doesn't need to specify it twice. 14:08:01 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:11:55 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:12:06 nibbs [n=hask@h136n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:16 doesnt lisp have a exceptions? 14:12:22 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb36f0.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:12:54 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:13:51 nibbs: Common Lisp has a very powerful Condition System which subsumes exception handling. 14:14:56 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 14:18:10 md`` [n=user@85-135-237-211.adsl.slovanet.sk] has joined #lisp 14:21:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:21:54 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:26:50 example? 14:28:09 Isn't there a tutorial or two on the condition system? 14:28:45 try this http://chaitanyagupta.com/lisp/restarts.html 14:29:08 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:22 nibbs: http://danweinreb.org/blog/what-conditions-exceptions-are-really-about 14:30:31 -!- merAch [n=ray@70.102.172.126] has quit ["..."] 14:30:56 tcr: Oh, neat. Apparently Common Lisp solves the halting problem. :-P 14:31:13 (Second paragraph under "Outcomes".) 14:31:20 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B41C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:48 No infinite loops to see here, move along. 14:32:01 hehe 14:33:00 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:03 And that also doesn't take into account the possibility of non-local exits... 14:34:11 -!- md` [n=user@85-135-228-236.adsl.slovanet.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:35 bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:05 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:37:18 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:37:20 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:38:35 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:39:20 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 14:40:34 kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has joined #lisp 14:42:35 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:43:08 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:43:53 -!- herbert [i=herbert@114.240.125.252] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:27 -!- nibbs [n=hask@h136n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 14:49:07 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:47 borism [n=boris@195-50-212-98-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:54:41 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [":wq"] 14:56:49 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-212-98-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 14:57:35 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has joined #lisp 15:01:03 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-132-85-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:05:55 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:23 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 15:07:41 kzar` [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:08:08 -!- lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:10 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-58-36.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp 15:09:55 Is there not a switch statement in common lisp? 15:10:02 CASE.q 15:10:06 sans the .q 15:10:49 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:23 also ESAC, with the order of the letters reversed 15:11:23 There can't be a switch statement in common lisp, because there are no statements in common lisp. 15:11:28 kzar`: there's also alexandria:switch 15:12:17 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:12:23 tic: yea but (case ((eql foo "hello") (hello)) (eql foo "bye") (bye)) is kind of ugly, was looking for something that would be more like (switch foo :test equal ("hello" (hello)) ("bye" (bye))) 15:12:51 kzar`, it'd be faster to write that macro for you by nows. ;) 15:12:52 kzar`: see alexandria's switch 15:12:59 kzar`: "kind of ugly"? How about "kind of broken"? 15:13:09 That's COND syntax, anyway. 15:13:13 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:27 And EQL doesn't do what you want on strings anyway. 15:13:39 nyef: oops sorry I was just quickly typing it to show what I meant, didn't check it 15:13:51 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:14:05 tic: true I guess I'll just write a macro heh 15:14:23 kzar: do you have luis on ignore or something? 15:14:31 kzar`: jeez, really, check alexandria:switch out. 15:14:34 *luis* sighs 15:14:39 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:10 borism [n=boris@195-50-212-98-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:15:22 luis: Sorry I wasn't ignoring you 15:15:54 (got a new keyboard the other week and I can't type quick enough to reply to everyone at once) 15:18:48 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:26:53 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-163.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:27:02 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B41C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:27:12 kzar`: np, it's just that alexandria:switch seems to be exactly what you want. 15:27:19 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a5b-067.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:29:38 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:32:16 milanj [n=milan@79.101.138.201] has joined #lisp 15:33:19 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.222.16] has joined #lisp 15:33:22 luis: I just checked and I don't have alexandria installed so I wrote the macro to do it in the end 15:33:53 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.222.16] has left #lisp 15:36:26 kzar`: do you have clbuild? 15:39:34 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 15:39:44 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-232.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:40:37 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:41:21 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:41:59 I'm trying to output numbers in lowercase hexadecimal but format gives me the uppercase version. Have I missed a control or do I have to downcase the string afterward? 15:43:01 clhs ~X 15:43:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cbe.htm 15:44:14 luis: it does not say anything about the case. 15:44:40 I.e. I want ff not FF. 15:45:03 kmkaplan: Have a look at ~( 15:45:04 kmkaplan: (format nil "~(~X~)" 42) 15:45:50 luis: Yes, great. Thank you. 15:46:55 And nyef, also. 15:49:36 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.177.249] has joined #lisp 15:49:53 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 15:52:34 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:41 Every time I see athos' nick, I wonder where aramis and d'artagnan are. 15:53:35 -!- cpape [n=user@p5484D20C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:55:59 -!- Guest47303 [n=a@5ad4f73d.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 15:56:23 robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:56:32 crod [n=cmell@cad439-106.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:57:13 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a5b-067.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:07 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:01:44 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:33 blitz_ [n=julian@pD95D6126.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:13 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:07:30 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:10:10 kzar: If you're just comparing strings, you might want to check out pkhuong's STRING-CASE macro. It's an educational read, even if you don't wind up using it. 16:10:31 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 16:10:34 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go"] 16:11:31 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:40 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:17:07 lispelot [n=lispelot@207-180-130-218.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:18:50 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:00 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:20:07 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-88-217-84-53.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 16:22:01 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-15-229.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:23:17 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has joined #lisp 16:23:21 i 16:23:54 robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:24:04 nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 16:25:30 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:27:03 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-15-229.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:28:34 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:29:36 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has quit [] 16:33:40 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:34:15 switching from SLIME completion back to bash-style completion is very annoying 16:34:27 i keep wondering why f-b-b doesn't expand to foo-bar-baz :) 16:34:31 -!- dankna [n=d@ool-43516bc9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:41:03 jrockway, zsh could do the trick with a bit of scripting 16:41:14 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:17 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 16:41:23 and hyphens aren't all that common in unix command names 16:42:52 unless you play git 16:45:25 ... Or "hard-to-git"? 16:45:27 % git che^I: check-atttr, check-ret-format, checkout, ... 16:46:12 nyef: that is an excellent nickname for git. 16:47:00 $ ls /usr/bin/*-* | wc -l 16:47:00 15 16:47:00 $ ls /usr/pkg/bin/*-* | wc -l 16:47:00 397 16:47:17 Not THAT common though. 16:48:54 nyef, bravo! 16:51:34 I often hear "How is that actually work", is that a common colloquial violation of grammars? 16:52:27 brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@ool-45717ef5.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:59 tcr, specifically "How is" or "How's"? 16:55:14 robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:55:57 -!- prip_ is now known as prip 16:56:11 "How's", in this context, is likely an abbreviated "How does". 16:56:42 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:56:46 Yeah, exactly. 16:57:51 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@ool-45717ef5.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:32 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 17:05:28 heh.. ugly 2m hack for my `out' macro to have what kmkaplan wanted.. (outs (:dc (:d 255 :base 16))) ==> "ff" 17:07:20 -!- hbock [n=hbock@96.238.4.35] has quit ["leaving"] 17:07:33 trivial observation of the day: format reinvents not only syntax for `string-downcase' et al., but also syntax for nesting (which is different for different operations!) 17:08:14 adeht: what syntax for nesting? 17:08:44 luis: what's the purpose of ~) ~] ~} ? ... 17:09:02 (and ~> of course) 17:09:25 adeht: oh, ok, I see what you mean. 17:09:44 adeht: Is yours based on ytools? 17:10:11 tcr: inspiration mostly, and I guess a bit of implementation style 17:10:26 and :q .. 17:13:03 the one in ytools is too simplistic 17:14:16 e.g. I want to write (out (:x some-value :base 16 :pad-char #\0 :width 8)), not its format analogue or straight CL 17:14:18 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:14:48 erm, I mean :d 17:15:25 with my `out' it expands into something like (let ((stream *standard-output*)) ... (format stream "~16,8,'0,,R" some-value) ...) 17:15:34 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:12 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:19 most operators expand into format control strings/args, which are concatenated together.. but some don't, they can "break out" of the format, and add their own forms 17:19:18 the casing operators are problematic, because it introduces nesting.. which I can't implement as, say, two format strings, because nested operators can be format-breaking.. so they are format-breaking 17:21:06 now I could use my own write primitives that respect some casing special variable or somesuch.. but for now I opted for nesting a (string-xxx (outs ,@subforms)) which then gets written to the stream.. ugly. (`outs' is like (out (:to nil) ...) which outputs to a string) 17:22:18 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:22:40 adeht: Thanks for the info, but format will do fine for my needs. 17:23:31 I use FORMAT too.. at work, for example. but I'm not too happy with it. 17:25:28 benny [n=benny@i577A0953.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:25:56 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-111-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:27:09 i'm trying to use emacs.app (built from cvs) with slime, but i get "Searching for program: No such file or directory, sbcl" when doing M-x slime. it works fine with the os x supplied console emacs though. any ideas? 17:27:27 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:27:31 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:34 wedgeV: probably your sbcl is installed somewhere which is not in the default PATH 17:27:54 i have inferior-lisp-program set to the full path 17:27:55 wedgeV: whereas your shell is running an init file which sets up a different PATH 17:28:09 /usr/local/bin/sbcl 17:28:16 well, but it says searching 17:28:26 so whatever setting it's using isn't that, or it isn't actually set 17:30:02 C-h v inferior-lisp-program shows the right path, and i just checked and /usr/local/bin is in PATH 17:30:21 is slime-lisp-implementations set? 17:31:31 ah i see, i'll try adding the path in there 17:31:57 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:05 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:09 -!- _8david` [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:14 yep. thats working, thanks kpreid! 17:33:40 is a conforming implementation allowed to (subtypep 'null '(or cons null)) => NIL, NIL? 17:33:40 -!- yrb [n=yrb@121-72-230-58.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:34:46 subtypep is permitted to return the values false and false only when at least one argument involves one of these type specifiers: and, eql, the list form of function, member, not, or, satisfies, or values. 17:35:31 cool 17:37:18 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 17:40:55 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-26-27.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:42:59 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 17:44:39 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 17:45:00 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@pD95D6126.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:46:54 CHJA [n=christia@90-231-255-161-no145.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:03 [ot] http://objectiveministries.org/creation/propaganda.html - is this a joke site? 17:48:23 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 17:50:19 Beeet [n=stathis@athedsl-4387340.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:51:00 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:51:17 weirdo: I don't know, for many of us creationist theories are just so funny that their propaganda quickly becomus humorous :) 17:51:19 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:26 Greetings everyone. I need your expertise please. Would anyone be so kind as to loop here http://paste.lisp.org/display/73069 and hint me on why the setf doesn't persistently change the value of the element it applies to ? 17:54:38 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:54:45 vy [n=user@88.224.68.241] has joined #lisp 17:54:54 s/loop/look 17:54:58 matley [n=matley@83.224.177.12] has joined #lisp 17:56:15 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.177.249] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:31 Beeet: Your confused what SETF does on a binding. 17:57:07 Beeet: (setf foo 42) assigns the binding foo to 42, it does not change whatever is currently stored in FOO 17:57:19 Oh 17:57:41 Beeet: You're just reinventing PUSHNEW. I think. 17:57:50 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:58:26 Beeet: (Furthermore, destructively modifying literal data has undefined consequences., *FOO* is initialized with a quoted literal.) 17:58:45 I need a function to add an element to an existing binary tree. The tree is represented as (X L R), with X being the root and L,R the left and right subtrees respectively. 17:59:10 Beeet: Use DEFSTRUCT to represent the nodes. 18:00:09 (defstruct node left element right), you can then use MAKE-NODE to construct a node, and you can use (setf (node-element some-node) 42) to modify a node 18:00:29 I was hoping to come up with a more fundamental (list-based), but I'll consider your suggestions. Really, thanks for bothering. 18:00:52 Beeet, structs can be mapped onto lists. 18:01:07 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:01:17 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:01:20 in which case the accessors become aliases for first, second, third, etc. 18:01:24 Beeet: There are already available binary tree implementations (avl-tree, cl-containers, etc.), you checked them right? 18:01:27 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-15-229.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:02:22 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.252.50.72] has joined #lisp 18:02:22 vy, I am doing it just for the educational side of it. Thanks. 18:03:23 Beeet: if you design your data structure properly, you should be able to swap out the implementation (lists, structs, CLOS). Abstract away the details. 18:04:01 tcr: I wonder what the purpose of `M-- C-u C-c C-c' is? usually when I decide to optimize something I also make it unsafe (i.e. safety 0), and this results in different notes (see CMUCL manual, 5.13.2) 18:04:18 2 vectors, one for the element and one for the pairs of children ;) 18:04:37 hfoo [n=h@p5B17E075.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:44 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@ool-45717ef5.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:58 drewc, I barely manage to do simple tasks in Lisp, which kind of discourages me from targeting high :( 18:05:26 Beeet: it's really a simply matter of changing the _names_. 18:05:29 -!- brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@ool-45717ef5.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:06:13 Beeet: if you are working on a Btree, why do you call your btree 'list' ? 18:08:20 robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:08:28 -!- Spec[afk] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:02 Spec[afk] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 18:09:24 Guest42383 [n=a@5ad5b20b.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:12 minion: logs? 18:10:13 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 18:11:18 ehu`: no problem, glad to help. 18:12:34 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.169.62] has quit ["There are two kinds of people in this world: those who spout Chuck Norris–isms, and those who have lives"] 18:13:19 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:13:21 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:16:42 :-) 18:17:12 matley- [n=matley@83.224.196.8] has joined #lisp 18:17:16 adeht: I don't get different notes for the example in the manual. 18:17:58 adeht: Also, the function is not supposed to be run as unsafe code, but as safe code. I use M-- C-c C-c to optimize paths in safe code. 18:19:07 -!- Guest42383 is now known as Cronos 18:19:16 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.177.12] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:20:13 prowack [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:20:22 tcr: i'm not sure I like the behaviour of the new REPL wrt compiler noise 18:21:50 anyway, a simple example is (lambda (x y) (declare (fixnum x) (simple-vector y)) (aref y (* 2 x))). The bound check inserted in safe code will box the result of (* 2 x) for check fixnum. 18:22:01 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-15-229.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:22:50 tcr: abcl supports CDR6 now. Does SLIME support other lisps which have CDR6? 18:22:52 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:22:59 iow, can you "switch" it on? 18:23:02 pkhuong: heh, you missing the missing newline? 18:23:15 first missing -> mean 18:23:39 adeht: that and style warnings from forms entered at the REPL are redirected to /dev/null 18:25:13 pkhuong: I'm not at fault here. Take 5 minutes, and report it. 18:25:45 tcr: sure. Maybe I was missing some easy customisation. 18:26:44 -!- prowack [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.1 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"] 18:27:01 ehu`: In retrospect, I'm not pleased with CDR6. 18:27:02 prowack [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:27:29 cdr 6 18:27:36 :-( 18:28:38 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-170-119.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:28:51 -!- prowack [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:29:32 prowack [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:30:03 -!- matley- is now known as matley 18:30:37 -!- prowack [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:32:20 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:32:32 ehu`: I think INSPECT should be allowed to take an additional &rest parameter which is also passed to the hook. It's nothing big, but I had a use case for this I can't recall at the moment. 18:33:48 closure 18:34:46 ehu`: Thanks for hacking it into ABCL. The changes on Slime are not straightforward, so I won't have the time to make it work for the time being. 18:34:51 I consider INSPECT a user command. What prevents tools to implement their own inspect? (What slime may need inspect for?) 18:36:31 <_8david> it would certainly feel more consistent to me when I'm typing (inspect foo) in slime to not find myself in the SBCL inspect REPL suddenly 18:37:05 _8david: you're removing an option. 18:37:54 The point is that (inspect foo) (inspect bar) will open two inspector buffers; if you want to halt, you have to insert an explicit (break). 18:38:20 <_8david> well, I don't like SLIME much anyway ;-), but if it forces me to use that annoying debugger it should at least be consistent about it and also force its inspector on me 18:38:34 having multiple inspectors open is not currently possible with slime, hence the necessary changes are not exactly trivial. 18:39:44 tcr, I got ARGLIST-FOR-ECHO-AREA working yesterday, thanks for the help. 18:40:49 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:43:28 anyone read let over lambda? 18:43:35 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E444BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 18:44:37 oh, that was the vanity pub one? 18:44:58 "Let Over Lambda (ISBN 978-1-4357-1275-1, 376+iv pp.) is one of the most hardcore computer programming books out there." :) 18:45:50 yeah 18:46:13 I'm not sure I could read something with that tagline 18:46:14 i'm thinking about getting a copy 18:46:33 have you exhausted the proper books? 18:46:37 -!- CHJA [n=christia@90-231-255-161-no145.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:13 maybe not... 18:47:17 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:23 mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has joined #lisp 18:47:34 i never really read all the books i own cover to cover, but i read them "enough" 18:47:48 maybe i should take another look at on lisp 18:48:27 from the code it looks like a pretty basic book for someone who is familiar with Lisp 18:48:44 if you want a "hardcore" book.. check out PAIP 18:48:53 or LiSP 18:50:12 Or "pr0nsite development for dummies"? 18:50:25 I suppose I shouldn't be quite so biased against vanity publishing; I can't help it though :) 18:50:40 nah, that's softcore.. for hardcore it's "pr0nserver design" :) 18:51:32 Vanity publishing is the printed word's equivalent to building your own website. 18:52:45 well, and expecting people to pay 40 euro to read it 18:53:09 _magnus_ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has joined #lisp 18:54:40 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@67.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 18:59:12 from that book: "(defvar temp-special)" 18:59:21 (he objects to the *s) 19:00:44 he prefers suffixing with -special? that's certainly an improvement... 19:01:44 (defvar todays-special 'split-p-soup) 19:01:51 :-) 19:03:25 tsk 19:04:54 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:42 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:05:52 I guess he added `-special' because `temp' isn't very descriptive, and obviously `-special' makes it so much better. 19:06:50 I'd make a comment about the "special" olympics here, but it'd probably be in bad taste. 19:07:48 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 19:09:09 syamajala: Why are you considering it? What topic in particular would you like to improve? 19:09:11 maybe they have it at summer, so they don't need earmuffs 19:13:53 pkhuong: Your example is then actually a case for compiling with (declare (optimize speed (safety 1))) rather than (safety 0), imho. 19:14:04 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has joined #lisp 19:20:43 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:21:14 blitz_ [n=julian@92.116.139.66] has joined #lisp 19:21:59 anekos___ [n=anekos@pl912.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:25:29 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 19:25:52 -!- anekos___ [n=anekos@pl912.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:26:12 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:26:26 anekos___ [n=anekos@pl912.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:29:24 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.114.113] has joined #lisp 19:30:10 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:30:29 -!- anekos___ [n=anekos@pl912.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:05 anekos___ [n=anekos@pl912.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:31:19 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:26 I'm getting a warning and I have got no idea why: http://sial.org/pbot/34208 19:31:39 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:39 compiler marks the (unless 19:32:09 with remark: this is not a (VALUES FUNCTION &OPTIONAL) 19:32:10 NIL 19:34:42 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-88-217-84-53.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:37:31 -!- anekos__ [n=anekos@pl296.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:38:39 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:39 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:38:46 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:39:10 eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:16 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 19:43:24 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 19:43:36 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 19:43:42 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx07476.centeva.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:03 anitharx [n=cedric@91.142.56.44] has joined #lisp 19:45:52 any of you set up cl-sql/cl-ppcre with apt-get? 19:46:14 YALN [n=unknown@194.146.155.69] has joined #lisp 19:46:32 don't use lisp packages from debian 19:47:30 how should I do it then 19:47:35 Chrononaut: don't use a lisp from debian, don't use packages from debian ... 19:47:49 either by hand or with clbuild 19:47:51 sorry Cronos 19:48:00 kk 19:48:14 ls 19:48:18 Cronos: clbuild is currently the easy way 19:48:27 oops, wrong window :P 19:48:33 hfoo: ls: permission denied 19:48:50 aw 19:49:10 Cronos: ASDF-INSTALL:INSTALL is the most common choice to install a package. 19:49:13 hfoo: Mail/ mp3z/ pr0n/ w4r3z/ 19:50:08 was looking for h4x0rzstuff/ 19:50:30 anekos____ [n=anekos@pl355.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:50:56 vy: no, ASDF-INSTALL sucks. 19:50:59 Should have done ls -A, as it's .spl01tz/ and .h4x/ :-P 19:51:06 Cronos: use clbuild instead 19:51:52 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:52:38 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 19:52:49 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 19:53:45 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:53:45 -!- prip [n=_prip@host202-132-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 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then the Internet exploded 19:55:58 mudballs:install ftw 19:55:58 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:59 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:00 yah i hide my filze from the man with dotfiles brah 19:56:01 .fbi-cant-see-this 19:56:01 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-200-32.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:01 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:56:17 just change what's in the default.cbd file? 19:56:51 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-200-32.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:57:17 decafbad1 [n=mehmet@88.252.50.72] has joined #lisp 19:57:18 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-200-32.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:28 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.252.50.72] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:53 -!- decafbad1 [n=mehmet@88.252.50.72] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:43 -!- anitharx [n=cedric@91.142.56.44] has quit ["leaving"] 19:58:51 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@athedsl-4387340.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:59:27 -!- YALN [n=unknown@194.146.155.69] has quit ["chasing after anitharx"] 19:59:38 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:52 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.252.50.72] has joined #lisp 19:59:53 PissedNumlock: the lords of locking are going to hit you on the head very soon 19:59:59 koning_r1bot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 20:00:24 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 20:00:35 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 20:00:52 blbrown_lt [n=blbrown@adsl-074-251-185-004.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:16 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:37 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:53 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:54 PissedNumlock: would let that check by a doctor 20:02:04 already found the mistake btw 20:02:16 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-232.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Operation timed out] 20:02:18 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 20:02:33 event-handler has a function named "work" 20:02:34 so yes 20:02:38 why do you use the extended loop syntax PissedNumlock? I would think that the simple syntax is more appropriate in this case 20:02:41 I messed that one up in style :) 20:04:49 -!- blbrown_lt [n=blbrown@adsl-074-251-185-004.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:05:32 archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:45 -!- antoni [n=antoni@123.pool85-53-15.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [No route to host] 20:06:34 luis: I didn't say it's not sucking, I just said that it is the most common choice. 20:07:00 -!- anekos___ [n=anekos@pl912.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 20:07:56 vy: common to whom? 20:08:20 if we take a poll, i think you'll find asdf-install is not as widely used as you think. 20:08:34 this comes from the guy who watches the cliki logs ;) 20:08:55 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.114.113] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:09:32 asdf-install? I stopped using that ages back when the -one- package I needed stopped building cleanly. 20:10:24 -!- sunkencity_ [n=sunkenci@h121n2c1o1036.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:11:22 what should i be doing with cbuild if I've managed to compile it? 20:11:59 clbuild is a shell script, no need to compile it 20:12:44 kk 20:12:45 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 20:13:25 rcy`` [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:24 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:20 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.138.201] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:19:44 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 20:23:18 how would you check a list for just one element? (and (not (null list)) (null (cdr list))) ? 20:23:24 or is there some function that checks for that specifically? 20:24:05 i.e. check that the lenght is just one, without doing length. 20:24:39 I don't want to do length because if length gets to more then one it should stop because we know already there is not one element, so no reason to traverse the rest of the list 20:25:01 jbjohns: what do you want to know? 20:25:12 does a list have exactly one element or not 20:25:35 <_magnus_> madnificent: mudballs is nice, just waiting for a asd2mbd tool :) 20:26:15 (cdr (cdr list)) << has two elements 20:26:33 jbjohns: I'm not 100% awake, so it might be wrong :) 20:26:47 (typep x '(cons t nil)) ? 20:27:07 <_8david> s/nil/null/ ? 20:27:17 Yeah, something like that. 20:27:59 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:28:10 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:25 i'd use (null (second list)) 20:28:40 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.114.113] has joined #lisp 20:28:42 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:55 (null (second '(1 nil 3 4))) => T 20:29:07 oh right sorry :) 20:29:28 CDR 20:29:30 not second 20:29:42 *drewc* needs more coffee 20:29:45 drewc: Doesn't work right on NIL, though. 20:29:46 ah, that type thing worked 20:30:47 oic .. i misread the spec 20:30:55 is that fast? the type thing? 20:31:05 It... depends on the implementation. 20:31:10 jbjohns: is this your bottleneck? 20:31:34 no, but if you pick the slowest operation at every single point then you wont have a specific bottleneck later 20:31:59 jbjohns: root of all evil 20:32:06 *_magnus_* put his trust in the compiler optimization 20:32:11 Typep with a simple constant type specifier on SBCL is decently fast. 20:32:15 jbjohns: make it work, then make it right, then make it fast where needed. 20:32:45 jbjohns, then give that operation a meaningful name and optimize if you notice, after profiling, that it is indeed where 90% of the time running your application is spent. 20:32:49 anyway, personally I think one should pick the best possible construct when one is known. I know all about the optimizations root of evil, etc., but it's still good to make good habits 20:33:00 Sure. 20:33:07 Premature optimization significantly reduces your chances of discovering a better overall algorithm. 20:33:24 jbjohns: the best construct may not be the fastest one. 20:33:32 <_8david> unless you DECLAREd like mad, your program will be full of type checks anyway 20:33:42 How can I force a (read) limit size on an input flexi-stream? 20:33:47 jbjohns: i'd rather lose speed and gain readability when i don't actually need the speed. 20:33:48 obviously I wouldn't make some massive inlined assembler routine to squeeze out more speed, but if there are 3 constructs that do the same thing, all just as elegant and clear, why not pick the fastest? 20:34:19 because i want to save space perhaps :) 20:34:25 i find (= (length list) 1) more clear 20:34:26 drewc: Who is talking about losing readability? The typep thing seems to work but I've got to comment it 20:34:33 well, if there are 3 ways to do something, possibly they have different drawbacks? 20:34:34 <_magnus_> Or most importantly, time :) 20:34:38 Because it may obfuscate another better overall solution. You might lose flexibility when refactoring. 20:34:45 jbjohns: DEFTYPE 20:34:50 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has quit [] 20:34:53 in fact .. 20:34:55 ehu: likely, and in that case I would chose the most readable one normally 20:34:55 stassats: Circular list. 20:35:14 I say checking cdr for nullity is the Right Thing to do. 20:35:15 nyef: ok, list-length 20:35:16 oh wait, you said they are all equally elegant and clear. Nevermind. (I find that rare, though) 20:35:35 stassats: Still runs time-proportional to the length of the list. 20:35:36 you should already have list-of-length-1-p as a function so the implementation does not matter! 20:35:39 <_magnus_> koning_r1bot: I was just about to suggest such solution. You stopped me though. hehe 20:35:51 ahaas: me too, but we all know what to do with 2 really ugly ones and one clear slightly slower one. That's easy 20:35:59 actually drewc beat us to it 20:36:17 <_magnus_> Oh he did? Missed that one. 20:36:17 nyef: can't SSC stop after 1? 20:36:46 stassats: TANSTAASSC. 20:36:50 drewc: That's why I asked, this sounds like something that someone would have wanted before: Finding out if a list fits a certain criteria and stopping as soon as we see it doesn't 20:36:50 <_magnus_> Ah in capital letters and all. :) 20:38:00 jbjohns: i think the point i'm trying to make is that it doesn't matter .. pick an implementation that is correct, abstract it out to a predicate, and if you later need to optimize it, you know where to look. 20:38:17 jbjohns: that said .. check in alexandria 20:38:38 i think there might be something in there like list-length= 20:39:20 brunch time, bbiab 20:39:36 <_8david> stassats: SSC doesn't help, because your form errors on (1 . 2), while the desired answer is nil 20:39:57 Wait, is that the desired answer? 20:40:18 Or is that an -improper- list of length 1? 20:40:28 nyef: beat me to it! :) 20:40:36 drewc: I thought you were going to go eat? 20:40:56 puttin on my shoes 20:41:00 <_magnus_> (> lisp foo) sometimes :) 20:41:27 <_magnus_> s/foo/food 20:41:30 _magnus_: i just don't know when to shut up and leave it be :) 20:41:39 really going now though. 20:41:47 <_magnus_> hehe Laters :) 20:42:32 drewc: that was constructive! (check in alexandria) 20:42:59 <_magnus_> Anyone using usocket to some extent/quite alot/heavily? 20:43:51 i've touched it 20:44:43 <_magnus_> What's your opinion of it so far? 20:46:00 gee, i don't know... i haven't used it that much :) 20:47:04 <_magnus_> Yeah I just realized that the question was perhaps a bit off :) 20:47:51 _magnus_: Are you trying to get out of doing your own evaluation? 20:47:55 -!- vy [n=user@88.224.68.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:10 <_magnus_> nyef: No not all. I am just a little curious about opinions in general about it. 20:49:46 ... I should probably look at it myself, actually. I seem to recall hearing something about its condition hierarchy. 20:50:20 <_magnus_> And, of course, trying to find people who might have some example code lying around, since I can't seem to find much docs on it. :) 20:50:54 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:58 -!- persi [n=user@241.sub-70-215-54.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 20:51:02 *nyef* winces. 20:51:07 That's not something I like to hear. 20:51:12 i'm using as a simple tcp client, nothing fancy, and i'm satisfied with it 20:51:28 <_magnus_> Well, I like it 'cus of the portability. :) 20:52:36 minion: Advice on portable? 20:52:38 #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system. 20:52:39 <_magnus_> Ah I am designing a server and test client, the server is planned to handle several clients. I am starting out small of course, have made a simple server and client with one way comm 20:53:24 <_magnus_> That is one advice I'll not follow minon, sorry :) 20:53:37 _magnus_: development version of hunchentoot uses usocket 20:53:46 _magnus_: it could be interesting to see how hunchentoot did it, that has been proven to work 20:55:21 <_magnus_> Aha interesting. Time for a source dive :) 20:55:36 http://bknr.net/trac/browser/trunk/thirdparty/hunchentoot here it is 20:55:40 _magnus_: are you familiar with sockets in other languages? 20:57:11 <_magnus_> Familiar yes 20:57:35 ShereKahn [n=ajourez@91.176.62.142] has joined #lisp 20:57:55 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:17 <_magnus_> I've 2-3 clients in C and C++, and a multithread server in C#, though alot of code were in place in the server. 21:02:27 -!- nicolas [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:02:27 <_magnus_> Hey I diden't know hunchentoot was a four-eyed spider-like thingy hehe 21:06:10 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-170-119.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:07:50 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-233.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:09:58 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 21:11:48 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:51 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:45 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-111-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:54 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:20:48 -!- anekos____ [n=anekos@pl355.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:02 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27:34 anekos____ [n=anekos@pl160.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:28:21 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:29:10 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.129.98] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:29:23 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@82-35-80-105.cable.ubr03.dals.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:15 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.196.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:32:25 matley [n=matley@83.224.196.8] has joined #lisp 21:35:52 zs [n=terry@72.169.66.158] has joined #lisp 21:36:36 sunkencity_ [n=sunkenci@h121n2c1o1036.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:43 -!- zs [n=terry@72.169.66.158] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:14 blitz_ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has joined #lisp 21:38:43 -!- anekos____ is now known as anekos 21:40:05 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-111-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:41:41 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:52 heya 21:43:09 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-88-217-84-53.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 21:43:39 hi 21:45:37 -!- lispelot [n=lispelot@207-180-130-218.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:46:58 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:19 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-16-250.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:03 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-245-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:37 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:56 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-16-250.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:50:16 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-16-250.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:36 sohum_ [n=sohum@114.73.29.15] has joined #lisp 21:51:14 hunchentoot handler functions return just one result; a built up string which makes the entire html text of the page. 21:51:22 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-233.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:51:47 for some reason i thought if I did a sequence of (format nil "foo")s, everything would work out 21:52:03 http://pastebin.com/d5f6a4546 <- what am i doing wrong here for it not to find "bob" ? 21:52:31 fusss: Are you still confused why that wouldn't work? 21:52:49 ahaas: primitive, isn't it :-P 21:52:54 Cronos: :test #'equal 21:53:01 kk 21:53:07 this is what happens when a desktop programmer discovers zee veb 21:53:38 ty stassats 21:53:40 (defvar *users* '("bob" "john")) (find "bob" *USERS* :test #'equal) 21:53:48 aye 21:53:55 defvar > setq? 21:53:57 (note the different style) 21:54:27 assuming it is toplevel, yes 21:54:32 kk 21:54:56 defparamater may also be useful 21:54:58 stassats: i think you should recommend defparameter til he knows better 21:55:06 bingo! 21:55:17 Conformance question: 21:55:29 Cronos: what lisp book are you using? 21:55:32 Cronos: SETQ / SETF assign to an existing binding only. You have to establish a binding first, either locally via LET, or globally via DEFVAR / DEFPARAMETER. 21:55:33 is #-(or this that) correct? 21:55:48 antoni [n=antoni@57.pool85-53-7.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:55:52 Or #-:(or this that) is required form? 21:56:01 ah kk 21:56:30 just general stuff from the web 21:56:32 Or am I completely wrong? 21:56:32 I can't imagine that the colon is necessary... or even standard. 21:56:44 minion: please tell Cronos about pcl 21:56:45 Cronos: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:56:56 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:14 kk 21:57:37 What is local pastebin url? 21:57:45 lisppaste: url? 21:57:45 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 21:57:51 clhs 24.1.2.1 21:57:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/24_aba.htm 21:57:57 ASau: See there. 21:58:14 #+(or foo bar) is fine 21:58:40 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:58:49 ASau pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73084 21:58:59 Is this correct? 21:59:07 -!- sohum [n=sohum@114.73.38.182] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:59:14 ASau: for all things cross-platform; the portability engineering part of app packaging, i just look at the libraries i have downloaded and see how they do things. matters of "tradition" are not usually taught in books, you have to get cultured :-) 21:59:36 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-88-217-84-53.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 21:59:37 -!- rcy`` [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:52 fusss: the question is more practical 22:00:16 If the code is correct by specification, then I should send PR to ECL. 22:00:24 If not, to another people. 22:00:49 oh. speaking of which, would you happen to know of a win32 build? 22:00:54 That it causes problems is definite. 22:00:54 of ECL that is 22:01:04 How can i solve mutual dependencies ? 22:01:12 ASau: It's fine 22:01:16 fusss: no, I don't know of one. 22:01:36 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:01:37 tcr: so, ECL behaviour is correct, right? 22:01:39 fusss: having a build won't actually do you much good. You still need a C compiler on the path even after ECL is built 22:01:49 drdo: refactor the dependencies to a third entity and make the mutually-dependent entities depend on that. goes for classes, functions, packages, or whatever :-) 22:01:59 ASau: Generally speaking, a few lisp implementations allow for :(foo bar) to be read as (:foo :bar), and have the general case of baz:(foo bar) be read as (baz:foo baz:bar). This behavior is not required by the standard. 22:02:18 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:28 fusss: that would still be the same 22:02:56 nyef: I don't understand why it skips form after it knows that (or :unix ...) isn't NIL. 22:03:06 infinite LOAD cycles 22:03:08 nyef: You can interpret clhs so that :(foo bar) should be parsed as :|| (foo bar) 22:03:11 Or do I miss anything? 22:03:30 clhs #- 22:03:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhr.htm 22:03:32 drdo: Do not use LOAD directly. Use ASDF. 22:03:45 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0953.versanet.de] has quit [No route to host] 22:03:46 ASau: Have a look at that, it might be what you're missing. 22:03:47 tcr: got something i can read on ASDF? 22:04:12 drdo: Search on Xach's blog. 22:04:20 drdo: what tcr said. look at any lisp library you might have and copy its *.asd. It has :depends (:foo :bar :baz) section 22:04:52 nyef: too many links, I've already read that page. 22:04:58 .asd is like a Makefiles; nobody ever writes one from scratch 22:05:02 this is a simple dependency between two files on my application :( 22:05:16 ASau: it assumes :unix is in your *features* 22:05:32 fusss: aha, thanks. I'll look into it. 22:06:25 fusss: yeah, thanks. That's very helpful. 22:06:31 drdo: Ah, what you do is you move the circular dependency into a single file, or you break the dependency. 22:06:39 What I need is (push :unix *features*) 22:07:27 ASau: yes. but moreover you don't wanna add stuff to *features* yourself; your system should be to define itself, unless you're bootstrapping a new lisp 22:07:32 hmm, i guess i could do something like they do in C 22:08:11 fusss: I understand that part, I just need quick hack. 22:08:29 ASau: good luck 22:11:02 drdo: invest 20 minutes on reading an ASDF tutorial and it will pay for itself. copy packages.lisp and foo.asd from any lib, customize it, and add something like (push #p"/path/to/your/project/" asdf:*central-registry*) to your .sbclrc. nothing beats like being able to fire up lisp and start your project. 22:11:08 Well you could add something to *features* if you just implemented what you push. So as long as you implement the :UNIX API on your current implementation, you could push :UNIX. 22:12:04 Good morning. 22:12:08 pjb: thankfully, if you run on Unix you get the UNIX API for free. 22:12:13 (another problem is that nobody defines what the :UNIX thingy is... you'd better just push your own name.asau:unix symbol instead). 22:12:24 pjb: the actual code is #+(and :ecl :netbsd) (push :unix *features*) 22:12:37 luis: not so sure: you'd have to do some ffi first on some (implementation host). 22:12:40 morning beach :-) 22:12:55 minion: tell ASau about trivial-features 22:12:56 ASau: please look at trivial-features: trivial-features ensures consistent *FEATURES* across multiple Common Lisp implementations. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-features 22:13:43 beach: unlike anywhere else in that part of the world, you're guaranteed great fresh coffee and nice pastries in .vn :-) 22:14:09 blitz__ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has joined #lisp 22:14:21 I would have guessed it to be rather tea and soja "cakes"... 22:14:21 luis: it has bug: 22:14:29 luis: (:NETBSD :FORMATTER :IEEE-FLOATING-POINT :RELATIVE-PACKAGE-NAMES :CLOS-STREAMS 22:14:29 :CMU-FORMAT :ECL-PDE :DLOPEN :CLOS :BOEHM-GC :ANSI-CL :COMMON-LISP :ECL 22:14:29 :COMMON :I386 :FFI :PREFIXED-API) 22:14:54 You can easily see that there's no :bsd 22:15:14 Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 22:15:31 luis: thanks for reference anyway. 22:15:32 ASau: no :unix either 22:15:41 luis: yes. 22:15:47 ASau: surely we can fix it, no? 22:15:51 That's why I started all this. 22:16:00 luis: sure :) 22:16:17 luis: should I send mail anywhere? 22:16:56 ASau: you can send me a patch, that'd be great yeah. 22:17:45 -!- Spec[afk] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:57 Does anybody have a good idea how I could write a sleep function using timers so it doesn't block? Not sure if that's possible... 22:18:19 Spec[afk] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 22:18:27 luis: actually, I don't see any sense in :bsd, BSD platforms differ way more than linux distributions. 22:18:30 You mean "how do I find out what time it is?" 22:18:45 cYmen: select? 22:18:46 luis: and that's not only my opinion. 22:18:59 z0d: ? 22:19:01 -!- sohum_ is now known as sohum 22:19:37 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:39 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:00 clhs: sleep 22:21:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sleep.htm 22:21:02 cYmen: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Timers.html#Timers perhaps 22:21:10 provided, it's not fine grained enough :-) 22:21:13 (not sure what a sleep function that doesn't block is) 22:21:16 ASau: ECL pushes :BSD on Mac OS, IIRC. 22:21:29 luis: I don't have access to Darwin now. 22:21:48 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:10 I'll write you when I have relevant build finished, it takes a while. 22:22:20 uriel09 [n=vicky@adsl-76-194-128-192.dsl.amrltx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:20 hefner: I'm not sure if that's the correct term... 22:22:33 ASau: cool, thanks. 22:22:35 hefner: simply put...when a function is sleeping I cannot use the repl. it's blocked... 22:23:07 run it in a different thread, then. 22:23:28 Rymnd` [n=raymond@53545E13.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 22:25:01 sbcl pushes :bsd on macos also 22:25:10 well, my old 1.0.17 anyway 22:25:19 set a var with a time, and only let the fucntion be called if it's after that time? 22:25:38 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:34 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:28:43 Cronos: unless you're checking the variable change in a loop, you're not gonna notice it :-) and if you're in a loop, you're not getting the repl back. he needs multiprocessing. 22:28:54 bordeaux-threads is nice. 22:29:12 kk 22:29:18 peeeta [n=peta@227-212-207-85.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz] has joined #lisp 22:29:32 more likely though, he doesn't _need_ threads :-P 22:33:30 -!- Rymnd` [n=raymond@53545E13.cable.casema.nl] has quit ["G-Lined"] 22:33:34 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:33:56 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.114.113] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:34:14 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has joined #lisp 22:34:33 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:09 hm... how do I run something in a thread? 22:35:17 of course I don't need threads :P 22:35:35 I don't need anything I'm doing in lisp I'm just messing around :) 22:35:37 vick [n=vick@41.233.254.94] has joined #lisp 22:35:40 -!- vick [n=vick@41.233.254.94] has left #lisp 22:35:49 lola [n=vick@41.233.254.94] has joined #lisp 22:35:53 Hello Zhivago 22:35:53 (make-thread #'something) 22:36:06 i just upgraded to the latest slime 22:36:15 and repl is gone? 22:36:35 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 22:37:15 never mind 22:37:46 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:37:55 so what are these new features that slime-fancy brings? 22:38:12 look into contrib/slime-fancy.el 22:38:40 slime repl, fancy inspector, autodoc, M-. on local functions 22:38:54 cYmen: bordeaux-threads, when you're ready 22:39:19 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-235-98.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:40:20 cYmen: (sb-thread:make-thread (lambda () (dotimes (i 10) (sleep 1) (print 'hai)))) 22:40:47 -!- lola [n=vick@41.233.254.94] has left #lisp 22:40:49 greyface [n=greyface@248-177.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 22:41:41 of course, if you run that in SLIME, the output probably goes to *inferior-lisp* instead of the slime repl 22:41:59 (no wonder they deprecated the repl.. that's always annoyed the hell out of me ;) 22:42:46 benny [n=benny@i577A0953.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:42:46 there is (was) some variable for global io redirection 22:43:03 they didn't deprecate the repl 22:43:05 is the REPL in Slime deprecated? 22:43:06 Uhm, "they" didn't "deprecate" the repl 22:43:20 that was a joke. 22:44:01 -!- ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:44:05 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:36 hefner: Excuse me, but we can't expect all the new people to be familiar with your excellent sense of humor yet! :) 22:44:36 -!- ``Erik__ is now known as ``Erik 22:47:35 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:47:35 meh doesn't really look like anything new to me, but then again i don't really use any of the advanced features of slime 22:47:46 -!- peeeta [n=peta@227-212-207-85.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:48:05 nyef: it's over. gui programming is over and i'm afraid you're too late. it's all in XML now :-( /me just saw WPF's XAML 22:48:38 fusss: Would you mind terribly if I remained in denial for a few years? 22:48:49 syamajala: What version did you use priorly? 22:49:00 don't know 22:49:13 syamajala: The point of slime-fancy is that it's basically what Slime always has been like. 22:50:03 nyef: of course, lambda-gtk has plenty of FFI quirks to satisfy your non-gui-programming needs. 22:50:28 Oh hell no. 22:50:42 clg had enough FFI quirks, thank you very much. 22:50:47 tcr: looks like it might have been from november 22:50:55 fusss: the great thing about the world moving on like that is, since every new idea is even worse than the last, it just increases the margin by which a healthy dose of sanity can kick everyone's ass 22:52:16 yeah 2008-10-17 22:52:52 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:53:43 -!- md`` [n=user@85-135-237-211.adsl.slovanet.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:54 syamajala: that's like yesterday 22:54:26 hefner: agreed. an XML-baesd GUI could only mean good news for the blacksheep programing tools. you take the perk of tight integration with the OS from VB/C#/C++, and you obviate the need for them. 22:55:14 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-111-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:22 We may be able to do 10 backwards-incompatible changes within that time frame, but please don't expect us to implement an equal amount of features. 22:55:29 well this is a new system 22:55:44 tcr: speaking of dates, isn't the title on your last blog entry wrong? 22:55:48 new rev. of mbp 22:56:05 ypsa [n=ypsa@r9dj117.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 22:56:16 -!- anuj [n=anuj@210.212.55.3] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:39 luis: #@!$ silly me 22:56:46 oh i see some changes now... 22:57:10 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4cd1.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:57:54 nil is red. ;-D 22:59:04 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 22:59:24 syamajala: If you're talking about return values at the REPL, that are presentations. Try to right-click on them. 22:59:36 or try middle-click on them 22:59:40 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:06 i don't how to middle click, but right-clicking looks cool 23:00:26 middle-click is like right-click -> copy to REPL 23:04:08 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:07:27 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad439-106.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:19 crod [n=cmell@cad4e7-094.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:08:37 completion is different 23:09:23 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:10:44 tcr: do you think it'd be a good idea to have an Ubuntu-style versioning scheme for SLIME? Say, 9.1 this month and 9.2 next month? 23:11:14 if it's good enough for ECL, it's good enough for everyone! 23:12:24 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 23:13:07 is there a way to set a variable, where it's symbol/name is the value of another variable? 23:13:35 Cronos: SET 23:13:40 kk 23:14:01 Cronos: The modern way is (setf (symbol-value '*foo*) 42) 23:14:29 kkty 23:14:57 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:14:59 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.252.50.72] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:15:17 luis: I don't have a particular opinion about it. 23:21:15 -!- ShereKahn [n=ajourez@91.176.62.142] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:26:46 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 23:27:35 -!- sunkencity_ [n=sunkenci@h121n2c1o1036.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:30:19 _8david` [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:30:29 -!- _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:30:32 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:31:33 Ooh. SLIME with timeboxed monthly releases? 23:31:52 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:10 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:35:15 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 23:36:04 nyef: I take it that you like the idea of such a release cycle. 23:36:38 luis: me too ^_^ 23:37:16 sounds good to me too 23:37:21 Yes. I might even consider upgrading from the last checkout I did back in 2007. 23:38:04 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx07476.centeva.wayport.net] has quit [] 23:38:42 nyef: 2008-12-31 has been very nice so far (after fixing my list of contribs). Thank you, slime hackers (: 23:39:28 now you don't have to list slime-repl as the first in the contrib list 23:40:41 nyef: why do you use such an old slime? 23:41:03 I think I found a bug in SBCL's LOOP implementation. 23:41:27 (loop for x from 0 for y from 0 until (= x 10) collect (cons x y)) works 23:41:27 z0d: Because it's a pain to install and update. 23:41:41 but (loop for x from 0 AND for y from 0 until (= x 10) collect (cons x y)) does not 23:41:48 And because if I -do- upgrade and it breaks, there's no easy way to roll back. 23:42:19 I disagree that it's a pain to install and update once it's installed. It's a pain to upgrade nonthless. 23:42:19 nyef: a pain to install? what do you mean? 23:42:27 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-179-109-100.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:40 tcr: i think the grammar says it's (loop for x ... and y ...) or (loop for x ... for y ...), but not AND FOR. 23:44:14 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-251-219.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:44:23 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-251-219.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:26 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:51 for-as-clause::= {for | as} for-as-subclause {and for-as-subclause}*; for-as-subclause::= for-as-arithmetic | ...; for-as-arithmetic::= var [type-spec] for-as-arithmetic-subclause 23:45:10 tcr: and what about upgrading? what I always did was only a cvs up. am I missing something? 23:45:25 SLIME is critical infrastructure. Upgrading it willy-nilly is just foolish. 23:45:48 pkhuong: Ok then it's Clisp's loop implementation which is too liberal 23:46:35 z0d: backwards incompatible changes introduced willy-nilly 23:47:03 or are you talking about SLIME used in real-world scenario? i.e. not development on your local box 23:47:26 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:52 broken slime on your local box is no fun 23:47:56 No he's talking about it being just a hassle 23:47:57 z0d: on my local box, SLIME is still critical infrastructure for hacking. 23:48:59 Not absolutely critical. but not having it is absolutely no fun. 23:49:07 I must be missing something.. you can read the Changelog, revert to the previous SLIME version in case something goes wrong 23:49:08 pon][ [n=pon@c-d531e253.516-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:49:45 zod: Sure, we'll just unpack the previous release tarbal... 23:49:59 Trying to pick the last version we used out with CVS is just not on. 23:50:33 nyef: you can copy it into a backup directory . though that's not very elegant 23:50:46 It's also a nuisance. 23:51:13 indeed. but doable 23:51:15 is there any reason why slime uses cvs? 23:51:49 because they chose to, presumably 23:52:05 syamajala: there's a git mirror. 23:52:32 though it's missing a bunch of tags at least, not sure why 23:54:40 (print (set (symbol-value (nth 5 explode)) (nth 6 explode))) <- why does it say the value (nth 5 explode) isn't a symbol, although the value is a symbol? 23:55:34 Cronos: What is the value of explode? 23:55:46 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:55:57 *** - SYMBOL-VALUE: "nick" is not a symbol 23:56:04 Right. It's a string. 23:56:13 kk 23:56:16 Cronos: try SETF instead of SET 23:56:22 (also) 23:56:27 SET and EXPLODE, looks like maclisp code! 23:56:39 same result 23:56:49 *** - SYSTEM::SET-SYMBOL-VALUE: "nick" is not a symbol 23:56:59 "nick" is a string, i suppose 23:57:46 Cronos: the error message is quite clear. SYMBOL-VALUE wants a symbol, not a string. 23:57:49 stassats: Given that it's almost certainly printed readably, that's a fairly safe assumption. 23:59:13 I'm unsure how to change it so a symbol 23:59:20 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:59:25 mtd_ [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:37 And there's also the question of what symbol you want to change it into. 23:59:41 typing 'nick instead of "nick" is one way