00:00:11 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 00:01:29 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@dialin-145-254-061-143.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:02:18 schme_: rockbox only works on old iPods 00:03:04 luis: 1st up to gen 5.5, indeed. 00:03:47 could be worse, I don't think there's a non-windows solution to zunes at all, yet 00:03:48 nyef, I guess ipod sorta works as usb storage but the filenames don't make much sense if you browse them that way 00:04:15 joga: songs also need to be added to a database before the player can see theem) 00:04:18 Well, one step at a time. 00:05:01 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:05:12 on a sidenote, my wife bought some tiny ipod video thingy, and it works extremely poorly with anything besides itunes, simply corrupts itself semi-randomly when transfering music, and the firmware is apparently encrypted 00:05:13 (not that anyone really has a zune anyway) 00:05:18 At some point over the next couple of months I plan to sit down and nail the rest of the han14xs interface. I think there's only a couple more commands to it anyway. 00:05:35 -!- Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:06:11 Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 00:06:26 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.158.204] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:45 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-106-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:02 -!- malu__ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4cd4.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 00:11:30 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:11:51 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:54 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-190-161.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 00:13:57 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:14:06 z` [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:52 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:04 -!- z` [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [No route to host] 00:18:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:22 -!- ishkur88 [n=dydx@70.152.167.7] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:22:36 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:16 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [No route to host] 00:26:18 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27:01 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 00:27:04 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-17-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:36 Is there a corollary to Greenspun's 10th about reinventing sexps: http://ogdl.sourceforge.net/ 00:27:40 badly. 00:28:16 -!- bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:28:30 -!- enodran [n=brandon@207-180-130-218.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 00:28:31 enodran [n=brandon@207-180-130-218.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:36 now that is terrific 00:29:22 WhiteFlame [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:24 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-054-140.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:46 ishkur88 [n=dydx@70.152.167.7] has joined #lisp 00:30:01 gigamonkey: lol 00:30:50 just for reference, I made up the arccot function like I need it. 00:30:51 http://paste.lisp.org/display/72925 00:31:09 the one that someone showed me, that used atan, wasnt what I was looking for. 00:31:12 Thanks though! 00:34:40 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:07 ogdl looks like n3 00:37:10 or like python without colons.. 00:38:03 I just wrote a macro which contains a recursive labels helper. I feel weird. :) 00:38:38 Not exactly everyday-stuff for me, that. 00:38:56 nothing wrong with it 00:39:15 Sure, nothing wrong with it, it was the most elegant solution I came up with. 00:39:48 We'll see tomorrow-ish if that piece of code will become part of abcl. 00:40:28 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 00:40:52 -!- ferada [n=ferada@e179236165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["leaving"] 00:41:01 so what's the consensus on generating docs from docstrings? 00:41:11 tinaa? edi's? something else? 00:41:38 sbcl's texinfo and html's just superb 00:41:52 My current feeling is that the docs should come first, and then the docstrings. 00:42:02 I don't know if I'll agree with that tomorrow. 00:42:18 (I also don't know if I agreed with that yesterday.) 00:42:29 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-16-47.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:31 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-038-224.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:44 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:43:01 I find it interesting that the opinions on literate programming amongs the subjects of Coders at Work has ranged from, "that's a good idea but I don't do it" to "that's not really a very good idea". 00:43:10 With the obvious exception of Knuth. 00:43:18 Speaking of documentation coming first. 00:43:24 Heh. 00:43:38 Yeah, I'm unconvinced by literate programming. 00:46:27 Do doxygen/javadoc count as literate programming? I haven't used WEB or other really-literate things, so it's hard to say if I've ever done literate programming. 00:46:39 V-ille, I'd say no. 00:47:07 Well, that makes me also unconvinced, then. :) 00:47:17 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Client Quit] 00:50:16 Interestingly Brendan Eich (whose transcript I'm checking now) seems to be one of the most Lisp literate of my subjects (excluding Guy Steele). 00:50:48 And some of them have been about as Lisp-ignorant as your average Lisp-hating programmer. 00:51:35 Sounds like a lot of interesting material coming together in one book. 00:51:49 Though Eich wasn't as up on CL as I'd hope--I'll be bringing him a copy of PCL when I talk to him again. 00:52:14 Maddas: should be. Or on the website assuming I get my act together to put up the outtakes. 00:52:53 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-31-218.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:08 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:56:12 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:56:29 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:58:10 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:58:20 gigamonkey: when can we pre-order your book? :) 00:58:41 i'm rewriting my program to CLOS and filling in docstrings as i type 00:59:04 since the program already works, there's no need to rush and omit docstrings 00:59:08 -!- mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:59:45 karlw [n=user@cpe-76-168-206-252.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:59:45 gigamonkey: literate programming is totally different from design by contract? 00:59:56 a 'no' would be good :) 01:00:13 madnificent: yes 01:00:25 but imo docs aren't as necessary as in, say, C due to hyphens and compound completion 01:00:46 luis: dunno. I'm not sure what trigger causes Apress to get an ISBN and put the book on Amazon. 01:00:47 then I fully support it, do it, and I wouldn't dare delivering any other code anywhere in the neigbourhood of my university :) 01:01:14 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@adsl-69-153-199-137.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 01:01:29 madnificent: By 'yes' I meant 'yes, it is totally different.' 01:01:39 -_- google it is 01:03:11 -!- sctb [n=sctb@adsl-71-135-124-233.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 01:04:12 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B348.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:05:10 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:10 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:10:00 Design by contract is where you make it smaller, right? ^_- 01:11:02 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:14 hmm design by contract could be easy with pattern matching 01:13:19 but i already see patterns everywhere 01:13:53 All programming can be viewed as an excersize in pattern matching, huh? 01:13:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:14:19 no, mine aren't turing-complete yet 01:14:19 -!- froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:14:32 I've built a minimalistic framework for dbc. Literal programming looks interesting but messy to me. I'm sure gigamonkey's book will be presented here and/or at planet.lisp.org somewhere. I'll check it when it's done :) 01:14:33 but i plan on upgrading them to context-free grammar any time soon 01:15:27 for me, docstrings are enough, since they can be put in all the interesting places 01:17:54 Has anyone gotten Swank to work on Windows? 01:17:59 -!- mbac [i=[LkF8Bau@panix2.panix.com] has quit ["leaving"] 01:18:50 I did at one point, but that was probably a year and a half ago or more. 01:19:06 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:59 One moment, I'll boot my XP laptop and see what the error is. 01:20:13 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 01:22:14 -!- WhiteFlame [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:23:44 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:18 DukeDave [n=IceChat7@5ac056cf.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:28 ``Winsock error 10038 (ENOTSOCK): Socket operation on non-socket [Condition of type SYSTEM::SIMPLE-OS-ERROR]'' 01:27:03 I use CLisp. 01:27:15 ... I know, absolutely and for certain... 01:27:20 Yeah, I was using SBCL. 01:27:34 How new are you at this? 01:28:06 (That is, can I just recommend you start with a backtrace and try to debug it yourself, or are you going to need some help with this?) 01:28:40 Hi, so I'm confused why this isn't just listing the numbers: (dolist (x (list 1 2 3 4) (print x))) 01:29:04 Missing a paren after (list 1 2 3 4) 01:29:20 It's not missing! It's just been misplaced. 01:29:35 Yeah. 01:29:40 *_* 01:30:23 I'm experienced mostly with Scheme, so I'm sort of a CL newbie. I should probably post to the mailing list. 01:30:24 DukeDave: Just blame the hangover from the new years eve party. 01:30:40 Ah yes I see now :) 01:30:45 Heh nyef 01:30:48 crap. why are theses always so tl;dr? 01:32:36 i want to figure out how packrat memoization works and the damn thing starts with: "practically all languages in use today [...] are founded on the idea of expressing information in linear form" 01:34:01 Interesting. Mostly correct, as far as what the layperson might recognize as "language", but there are some notable exceptions... 01:34:03 sbcl's tail call optimization's great, even RETURN-FROM is a tail call 01:34:21 nyef: you thinking of graphical languages? 01:34:27 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:34:39 gigamonkey: Yes. And not necessarily graphical programming languages, either. 01:34:57 weirdo: Having seen that abused, I'm not so convinced it's great. 01:35:02 I'd assume 'language' in a paper about packrat parsing is already limited to 'programming languages' 01:35:05 *nyef* shudders in memory of figuring out the SBCL inspector. 01:35:18 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has left #lisp 01:35:55 gigamonkey: Sure. Even there a couple of the turing tarpit languages are less than linear, and graphical languages are another obvious group of exceptions. 01:36:04 nyef, you a dev? could you make up better arglists for list-difference and subtypep? :) 01:36:32 weirdo: Never looked into it. Why don't you try, and send a patch to the list? 01:36:36 weirdo: did you read the clhs? 01:36:47 madnificent, sure, not the whole thing, though 01:36:56 nyef, sounds like a plan :_) 01:37:27 weirdo: no, I mean for that function. Or was it not a question about understanding what subtypep should do? 01:37:38 not if only copying between two encrypted partitions was io-bound and not cpu-bound, i could finally write some code 01:38:09 Ah. type1 type2 &optional environment. Fun. 01:38:24 madnificent, i'd prefer relying on autodoc instead of having to context-switch to emacs-w3m 01:39:04 -!- DukeDave [n=IceChat7@5ac056cf.bb.sky.com] has quit ["I cna ytpe 300 wrods pre mniuet!!!"] 01:39:23 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:40 Yeah, that's only two characters away from what's defined in the spec, and it's no bloody help when you're trying to remember which one is the possible subtype and which one is the wished-for supertype. 01:40:56 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:07 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [] 01:44:08 weirdo: I agree with you, was just trying to be helpful... bedtime have fun 01:44:45 *kpreid* looks at clhs to find out *which* two characters 01:45:05 got any better names than "haystack" and "needles" for SET-DIFFERENCE? 01:46:04 "dirty" and "dirt" 01:46:31 "list" and "deletions" 01:47:39 holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:47 omfg. I've been struggling with audio buffer underruns in my emulator for most of the day, and here I find various rouge clisp "lisp.run" processes using as much CPU as they can get (doesn't fix my problem, but certainly didn't help). 01:47:53 *hefner* curses crappy lisp implementations 01:47:53 brianj_otter [n=brianj@wsip-24-234-224-152.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:52 weirdo, `minuend' and `subtrahend'. 01:49:27 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 01:50:03 hefner: In certain circles, there is an emulator whose behavior is fondly remembered. If it was running so slowly as to not be able to render a frame in the correct 1/60th of a second or less, it would print the message on standard output, "YOU SUCK, MAKE IT FASTER". 01:51:13 -!- karlw [n=user@cpe-76-168-206-252.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 01:53:47 hehe 01:54:23 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:55:18 I made the mistake other day of deciding I'd make the audio emit a sample for every N CPU cycles (instead of from SDL's audio callback) 01:55:24 If memory serves, this emulator used the low 64k of the process address space as its memory area, and used mmap() to do bankswitching... 01:55:37 Yeah, that's a bit of a mistake. 01:55:51 What you do is collect the sample every N CPU cycles, and flush the buffer on the audio callback. 01:55:55 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:56:59 well, it solved various problems (particularly as the audio callback seems to run in a different thread) 01:57:31 That might have an effect, I guess... 01:58:10 and sure, I accumulate them in a circular buffer, but I seem to be at the whim of OS scheduling 01:58:37 so I have to add a lot of latency to get the number of underruns anywhere near acceptable 02:00:09 I'd consider suggesting that perhaps SDL isn't the right thing to use for audio in that case, but I really don't know what the alternatives are beyond just talking to the kernel directly. 02:00:57 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:01:10 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:01:14 Yeah, it sucks for this. If I could see the audio buffer pointer and time things off that, it might work better. 02:03:02 -!- HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:03:54 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:04:08 holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:20 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:08:02 hmm clojure has no javascript 02:08:09 what? 02:08:16 sorry, closure 02:08:44 and i have a pattern matcher which can easily be upgraded to context-free grammar... 02:09:21 let's wait for a few cdrs of my todo list 02:09:41 Balita [n=ase23azz@p2203-ipbfp702fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:10:21 it could in effect easily beat firefox's native-compiled version, another reason to brag about lisp superiority 02:10:23 it's a win-win! 02:10:37 -!- antoni [n=antoni@174.pool85-53-10.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:11:03 *hefner* admires weirdo's rose-tinted telescope 02:13:08 Heh. 02:13:32 -!- Balita [n=ase23azz@p2203-ipbfp702fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:19:43 -!- blitz__ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 02:20:22 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:23:16 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 02:24:22 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:14 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:28:56 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-153-129.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:31:04 oh, screw it. I'll add some clocking, a kludge for the case where the audio wants to interrupt the CPU, and let the audio callback generate the audio itself if the buffer underruns (and sacrifice my precious pseudo-cycle-accuracy) 02:31:24 s/clocking/locking/ :) 02:35:05 binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.244.113] has joined #lisp 02:38:33 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:39:14 -!- arbscht_ is now known as arbscht 02:42:05 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 02:42:42 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-138-56.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:08 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:45:50 hi 02:45:56 Hi davazp 02:46:12 I would like to create a spanish wiki about Lisp, where collect resources in spanish about the language and libraries 02:46:35 Sounds great! 02:46:36 should do I use cliki for this? 02:46:59 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.222.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:47:00 No idea :) 02:47:10 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:47:32 Well, putting it on the cliki.net site itself is probably not a bright idea... 02:48:02 -!- binarycodes_ is now known as binarycodes 02:48:05 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@99-186-122-131.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:20 And ISTR that the cliki software itself, unless it's been rewritten since, is an unmaintained mess, and based on araneida to boot, which really isn't recommended these days. 02:50:23 I would like to listen some suggestion then :) 02:51:11 davazp: somebody needs to rewrite cliki 02:53:46 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:01:47 surely a port of cliki to (trendy web framework of the month) is not more than a few hours work for a mighty lisp hacker 03:03:07 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-138-56.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:03:46 By the power of greyskull. 03:05:28 drewc may already have done that. 03:13:43 i once asked about context-free grammar on ##linguistics and some guy told me he forgot the hierarchy since he hates chomsky's politics... 03:14:25 so to make a pattern matcher a context-free grammar, all i need to do is adding recursion? 03:14:52 ...and to read through the boring packrat thesis, blegh. 03:22:55 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:23:52 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 03:24:11 lousy academics... 03:24:24 they make a living being tl;dr and polysyllabic... 03:25:01 What is tl;dr ? 03:25:11 too long; didn't read 03:27:07 *schme_* does not quite get it. 03:27:09 oh well :) 03:27:10 weirdo: it isn't our fault. our advisors demand it 03:27:50 schme_: it means that the object was so daunting in length, that the person gave up before they even started 03:27:58 Hmm... 03:28:03 What odd behaviour :) 03:28:05 schme_: short attention span on the Interwebs 03:28:21 (: 03:28:28 schme_, imo marx in Das Kapital is the epitome of tl;dr and polysylabicity 03:28:35 Oh ok. 03:28:35 well, not all documents are as terse as they should be =) 03:28:42 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 03:28:44 try reading *three tomes* of it... i only read 10 pages 03:28:45 I found that quite a good read while taking a dump. 03:28:55 One takes it in bits of course. 03:29:00 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:33 Though I guess if it had been a book about make up I'd give up :) 03:29:52 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:30:27 imo he tries to sound "scientific" and obscure to make up for his lack of falsifiability 03:30:45 Well sure :) 03:31:42 but he's got some things right - to get paid more, one needs to work less; ok, less offtopic from me 03:31:54 s/less/no more/ :) 03:32:16 Well I'm not arguing for and against Marx here. Just saying it was a chill read :) 03:32:36 I guess it varies. Had it been on combustion engine design I'd fall asleep;) 03:34:59 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-153-129.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:18 But... External combustion engines are neat! 03:38:11 hahaha. 03:38:20 Ok. *finally* I got music playing. Now I can get back to hacking code. 03:38:54 Had to take a visit in KDE land. Detected braindeadness, and then to clean up. 03:38:55 mmm. 03:39:07 Oh yes it was the usb stuff I was gonna look at :) 03:39:40 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 03:45:09 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-153-129.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:48:12 schme_, i'm not arguing against him either. and i loved the leninist propaganda posters: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Poster32.jpg 03:48:22 that so needs to be made into a poster 03:49:05 haha. 03:49:22 Too bad I don't read a word of russian :) 03:50:44 Actually, there are many cognates there which are recognizable if one is familiar with both the Latin alphabet and the Greek alphabet. 03:50:49 on the left: "who gets the most of national income? in capitalist (lit. "sides") countries - the exploiters" 03:51:11 on the right: "in USSR - (probably) the working class" 03:51:32 holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:01  looks like it means someone who goes through hardships 03:54:30 i don't know any russian, but there are many etymological similarities to the polish language 03:55:27 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B631A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:29 on a repeated cold start of sbcl, does *random-state* necessarily remain the same? 03:55:53 try and see 03:56:13 it appears to, but I'm looking for a specification or guarantee, if there is any 03:56:16 Riastradh this makes sense since cyrillic comes from greek 03:56:29 arbscht, afaik there are no guarantees for the internal api 03:56:34 might want to serialize random state somewhere 03:56:37 It has to remain the same for -some- part of the initialization, as it has to be initialized explicitly at some point, or not at all. 03:57:34 Looks like it's initialized fairly early on. 03:57:46 Between typecheckfuns and hairy-data-vector-reffers. 03:58:32 Now, all that init is is (setf *random-state* (%make-random-state)), so... 03:59:03 Hrm. 03:59:59 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 04:00:00 Yeah, looks to be a constant seed. 04:00:34 %make-random-state is the constructor for a struct. 04:01:00 And the only field in the struct has a default initializer of (init-random-state), which takes optional seed and state arguments. 04:01:08 if it were to be initialized for each run, when would that be? in the standard toplevel, I think 04:01:12 And is completely deterministic on those inputs. 04:01:31 (that way if you save a core you can avoid nondeterminism) 04:01:36 So, for cold-init, it's deterministic. 04:01:42 and yet...that would be a possibly surprising behavior 04:02:22 what's a good seed? time xor 2? 04:02:37 And I'm not seeing any other initialization. 04:02:44 At least, not in src/code/. 04:03:28 weirdo: why xor 2? 04:03:46 kpreid, i don't know. seen it used in Perl docs ages ago 04:04:01 it wasn't probably not good advice for that very reason 04:04:17 No accounting for what those Perl users do. 04:08:32 I see code which initializes to time xor process id, which is at least sane 04:08:58 with a comment that if your system doesn't have process ids, then change it to time xor 22/7 04:09:23 now that's a nothing-up-my-sleeve-number... 04:09:23 ...oh. I get it. 04:09:26 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:09:29 if you don't have PID, use PI 04:09:44 Yeah, I was thinking that was a familiar fraction. 04:09:47 ha! :-)))) 04:10:24 Speaking of PIDs, Linux has this concept of a "TID", or thread ID. 04:10:36 i was thinking of seeding with n bits from /dev/random 04:10:38 And there's even a gettid(2) syscall... that isn't wrapped by glibc. 04:10:57 wonder why linux won't just use yarrow 04:11:05 weirdo: I would use urandom 04:11:52 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 04:12:17 But there's a way to determine the TID of the executing thread without that call, provided that the /proc filesystem is mounted and you have a free file descriptor. 04:12:34 (What's "yarrow" in this context, since it seems unlikely to be the plant.) 04:13:24 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:35 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 04:18:48 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 04:19:42 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 04:20:43 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 04:22:04 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 04:22:21 -!- jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:25:30 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B631A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:26:28 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:28:20 nyef, freebsd's cryptographically strong urandom 04:28:27 they even made random a synonym for urandom 04:28:52 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:28:52 they're not the one who invented it, but apparently the only ones who took interest in it 04:30:24 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 04:33:56 Hrm. As opposed to Linux's urandom? 04:34:30 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 04:34:50 I know when I ran coLinux I occasionally had to do unrelated stuff for the coLinux kernel to generate enough entropy to supply bits for one of the two random devices in /dev. 04:35:58 some old linux distros generated ssh keys during installation 04:36:35 now banging on the keyboard was trully a must, since there weren't really any background processes :) 04:36:40 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:38:13 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 04:38:20 Okay, I need to settle down to get some sleep before midnight, so I'm going to disappear for a few hours. 04:38:23 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279439877.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 04:38:27 G'night all. 04:38:36 -!- nyef [n=nyef@64.222.164.52] has quit ["Sleep. Sleep is nice."] 04:39:37 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:40:33 cya 04:45:38 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 04:51:27 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:52:30 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:55:51 Something I've been wondering ... (defpackage ... (:export #:symbol1 #:symbol2 .. what's the reason for that? 04:56:14 as opposed to (:export :symbol1 :symbol2 .. 04:57:27 lexclose: you avoid interning noise in the keyword package. 04:59:16 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:53 Ahh, ok 05:00:29 Thanks :) 05:02:36 -!- yoonkn [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.71] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:03:54 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:05:16 holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:37 yoonkn [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.71] has joined #lisp 05:11:50 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.140.193] has joined #lisp 05:11:58 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.140.193] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:13:11 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 05:13:47 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.140.193] has joined #lisp 05:20:40 -!- patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit 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has joined #lisp 05:38:09 what was all that about? did freenode just have a netsplit from niven? 05:40:02 -!- arbscht_ is now known as arbscht 05:40:24 I guess 05:42:31 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 05:46:07 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:47:39 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-118.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 05:51:14 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:51:38 rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:36 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:55:39 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 06:00:14 http://rafb.net/p/ZKp0oR82.html 06:00:19 Weeee. :D 06:01:00 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@99-186-122-131.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:02:52 neat 06:05:27 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:06:17 AntiSpamMeta 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"\(^^)""] 06:10:41 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-16-47.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:15:24 -!- ishkur88 [n=dydx@70.152.167.7] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:17:42 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:47 netfrog [n=NetFrog@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #lisp 06:24:03 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:27:29 -!- netfrog [n=NetFrog@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has left #lisp 06:38:56 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 06:54:12 -!- esden_ is now known as esden 06:57:34 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:58:46 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 07:07:39 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-21-170.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 07:10:52 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.244.113] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 07:12:53 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:25:41 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:26:27 vy [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 07:26:39 -!- kidd [n=kidd@55.Red-83-36-89.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 07:27:32 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:27:49 Hi! Which resource (article, book, etc.) should one _digest_ to be able to do CLOS hacks similar to this: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6d79951c9066eac5 07:34:46 zachi [n=jayoung@c-24-18-76-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:03 hello 07:35:09 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.226.151] has joined #lisp 07:35:35 just started learning CL, have a question about some code 07:35:48 http://paste.lisp.org/display/72941 07:36:25 when i run (print-staff (set-note 4)) in the REPL, it changes the value of *blank-staff* 07:36:28 why?!?!! 07:37:02 <_3b> because you bind staff to the same list as *blank-staff* then modify the contents of staff 07:37:15 I thought let created a local variable 07:37:23 <_3b> it does 07:37:45 so how does that propagate outside of let? 07:37:46 <_3b> but you initialize it with the contents of *blank-staff* 07:37:51 it does. it does not copy your data structures though. 07:37:59 ok 07:38:24 how can I create a local copy? 07:38:35 ...or am I going about this the wrong way? 07:39:40 <_3b> replace *blank-staff* with a function that returns a new list when called? 07:39:58 <_3b> (might still be the wrong way over all though) 07:40:18 yeah, but should work anyway 07:41:46 you have to make a copy of a quoted list if you plan on modifying it. even if you make it a function. 07:41:59 <_3b> note that '( ... ) doesn't make a new modifiable list, use (list ... ) instead 07:43:07 drewc: so (defun blank-staff () (list ...)) won't work? 07:43:15 that fine 07:43:41 LIST creates a new list every time. 07:43:53 it's still an odd way to go about it though. 07:44:23 zachi: As an aside, you can say (1+ i) instead of (+ i 1). 07:44:39 Aankhen``: thanks 07:44:44 drewc: that didn't work 07:44:48 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:44:54 (blank-staff) -> works 07:44:55 zachi, if you know C, '(a b c) is like having a literate string inside your code, whereas (list 'a 'b 'c) would be like mallocing a piece of new memory. i.e. in theory all literals could be placed in read-only data segments where touching them would cause a seg fault. Often that doesn't happen, but you should still never do it. 07:45:02 (set-note 4) -> ok 07:45:10 tic_: s/literate/literal? 07:45:13 (blank-staff) -> now looks like the results from (set-note) 07:45:17 antares_, yes, thanks. 07:45:19 Aankhen``: yes 07:45:24 s,\?,/?, 07:45:28 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:45:33 tic_: gotcha 07:45:42 s/LOOPS/FRUIT LOOPS/ 07:45:42 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 07:46:01 s/Quadresence/rescence/ 07:46:22 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-56.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:29 <_3b> zachi: annotate it with the current version if it still doesn'tw ork 07:47:41 _3b: annotated 07:48:26 clhs " 07:48:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_de.htm 07:48:40 now with my output 07:50:52 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 07:51:05 <_3b> hmm, guess you need to make new strings as well? 07:51:51 <_3b> (defun blank-staff () (mapcar 'copy-seq (list ...))) or something 07:52:14 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:52:22 <_3b> but at this point, might be better to just make a print-staff function that builds it directly or something 07:52:25 right .. still modifying literals 07:52:28 <_3b> instead of modifying a blank one 07:52:48 -!- wol [n=wol@c-24-4-220-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:52:53 yup 07:53:07 _3b: but drawing to an array is so much easier 07:53:20 at least, that's the theory i approached this with 07:53:38 i think you might want to revise that theory :) 07:53:46 haha yeah maybe 07:53:55 this can all be replaced with a nice LOOP 07:54:13 no nasty setf business. 07:55:21 but i suppose it really depends on what you ultimately are trying to do. 07:55:57 print a random musical note to the screen 07:56:41 mapcar 'copy-seq seems to have worked 07:57:42 thanks for everyone's ehlp 07:57:42 good morning 07:57:51 i see no musical notes in that code .. only lists and strings and magic numbers. Abstraction is the name of the game. I'm much too tired to walk you through it right now though :(. 07:58:26 gnight 08:00:15 final working copy FWIW http://paste.lisp.org/display/72941#3 08:00:59 thanks again 08:02:33 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:04:36 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:08:12 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:13:48 beach [n=user@58.186.158.204] has joined #lisp 08:13:53 Good afternoon. 08:14:12 g'day 08:16:03 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:17:23 hello beach 08:17:43 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-225-187.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 08:21:51 hindley-milner impls are so braindead 08:22:12 they should try to convert a type to normal form before checking it for equality 08:22:26 for instance, type Anything x = x 08:22:41 function expects Anything integer and i pass it 42 08:22:44 it breaks, horribly 08:23:07 but is hindley-milner even adequate? 08:23:23 did anyone formulate a sophisticated decidable halting type system? 08:24:17 ok, drop the "halting" part 08:24:20 anyone? 08:27:24 how about taking CL system, dropping SATISFIES, adding type algebra 08:27:34 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:27:43 keeping deftype turing-completeness 08:28:19 maintain call graph between stuff to allow for redefinition 08:28:56 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.244.113] has joined #lisp 08:29:05 Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-48714.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:29:19 CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:30:11 would that even be worth the effort? what's up with static-typist rhetoric? do they get an even moderate productivity boost compared to dynamic-typism? 08:30:48 the "If your program type-checks correctly, it will work"-argument by Haskellers? 08:32:33 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-106-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:39:16 They don't say that seriously though ;) 08:44:44 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-106-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:34 Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:47:44 schme_, but they unconsciously assume it is so 08:48:05 weirdo: That might be so I guess. 08:48:10 I sometimes find during execution that I mistyped -say- a function name. Is there a way other than audit-trial to eliminate this issues in Lisp ? 08:48:32 regular languages would be fun, though, type inference being dead simple and always correct 08:48:57 If your program type-checks it won't crash while doing exactly what you told it to. :) 08:49:58 [ot] anyone doing sea plus plus? 08:50:00 Exactly. Though half the time I tell it to crash :) 08:50:06 i'm curious about the following situation 08:50:19 there are classes Foo and Bar defining a method baz() 08:50:31 Bar inherits from Foo 08:50:48 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:50:57 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.72.141] has joined #lisp 08:50:58 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:51:03 now, can method baz be called on Bar when downcasted to Foo? 08:51:04 Beket: Are you not dumped into the debugger or some such when a missing function is called? 08:51:46 weirdo: Maybe with mayonaise? 08:52:17 if not, i wonder what happens when calling a destructor on a downcasted datum 08:52:24 probably lots of drama 08:52:49 weirdo: I really have no idea what you're talking about, but it makes me hungry for some guacamole. 08:53:02 i've been reading "thinking in c++" and it amazes me, the guy managed to dumb down OOP to a form where everything is O(1) 08:53:07 except perhaps exception handling 08:53:16 That's good innit? 08:53:23 no, as erik naggum said: 08:53:33 language can be either expressive or efficient, never both 08:53:50 C++ often seems to achieve neither 08:53:58 all of that copying adds up 08:53:59 but at least they tried! 08:54:32 you can pre-compute effective methods! 08:54:50 yeah, and i can do generics in lisp 08:55:30 with a function that memoized COMPILEd specialized functions 08:55:38 s/memoized/memoizes 08:55:50 and i can even speed up keywords with compiler macros 08:56:54 schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4dbb6188a463c31b] has joined #lisp 08:56:59 though all of that never matters in practice, as the bottleneck is, as always, the database, disk io, network io or user response time 08:57:41 wow, my cat is really fat. and purring 08:57:57 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-106-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:58:28 he's preventing my going to the toilet with his warm belly on my lap 08:58:47 mm kotek... 08:59:03 schme_, yes I am. I just wondered if there is any other methodology. By the way, is common place for Lispers to use extensive test cases so that many code branches are executes, dynamically type-checked and proven to be correct? 08:59:26 Beket, testing isn't really as much common as in the "mainstream" 08:59:35 basically, we type expressions in the repl as we go 08:59:43 so there's less need to do unit testing 09:00:11 sure there is. 09:00:59 Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@p54924C32.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:04 some people never write tests and their code Just Works due to incremental development doing its magic 09:01:16 I understand. 09:01:24 robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:01:41 and static verification is pretty much... well, nonexistent 09:02:00 so there are no tools like coverity prevent 09:02:22 though coverity mostly thrives on C-specific bugs that are nonexistent in lisp anyway 09:03:11 i mean, do lispers commit fencepost errors and not notice it for eleven years? 09:03:27 and statically link their programs to corrupt something more... irrelevant? 09:03:29 "You forgot to malloc your cons!!" 09:04:00 i forgot to malloc it with atomic GC! 09:04:28 Haskell is nice for that sort of thing. 09:04:43 stuff like Quickcheck can be useful 09:04:53 I think some of the Lisp testing frameworks can do similar stuff 09:04:56 now 09:05:10 ... 09:05:22 Haskell is good for finding if you mistyped the name of a function? 09:06:32 Haskell has the pattern matching going for it. 09:06:59 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:01 Well I like haskell. The syntax bugs me something crazy though. 09:07:02 is it hard to decide whether a list of patterns is partial? :) 09:07:02 schme_: I mean static analysis sort of things 09:07:16 and should one give rat's ass anyway? 09:07:45 Well.. 09:07:54 but heck, mine has opaque stuff too 09:07:55 I'll just go buy some antibiotics and you guys fight this out. 09:08:11 antibiotics lower your immunity response 09:08:12 -!- zachi [n=jayoung@c-24-18-76-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:08:21 don't overdo it though, you'll get resistant bacterias eventaully. 09:09:07 weirdo: I think I'm supposed to get 'em 'cause I already have a lowered immunity response and therefore have a bad infection that keeps me from sleeping. 09:09:20 tic_: Indeed. 09:09:25 http://xkcd.com/525/ 09:10:01 well, you got a prescription al right... 09:10:39 Uh yes. 09:10:50 I need it to keep the swelling down so I can keep breathing. 09:13:40 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:11 -!- Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-48714.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:20:25 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 09:22:53 Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-48714.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:24:12 user_ [n=user@p54924C32.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:34 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has left #lisp 09:33:28 antoni [n=antoni@165.pool85-53-14.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 09:34:50 Reaver_11 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:39:46 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-155.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:41:01 what's %variable-rebinding for? instructing the register allocator? 09:42:08 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:43:08 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:44:10 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 09:45:44 manuel_ [n=manuel@g228130024.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:46:39 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.90.43] has joined #lisp 09:52:06 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-225-187.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:54:40 -!- vy [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:54:52 vy [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 09:58:52 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:00:00 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@g228130024.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 10:00:49 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:01:59 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:06:59 -!- Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@p54924C32.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:07:54 -!- user_ [n=user@p54924C32.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:13:45 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:14:15 good afternoon 10:18:11 (looking at logs) 10:18:40 weirdo: slot-value optimizations inside defmethod bodies 10:19:17 or rather, reasoning when those optimizations can and cannot be done 10:19:57 thought the type would get inferred when rebinding 10:20:14 it's not about type 10:20:25 hello nikodemus 10:20:28 hi 10:20:44 weirdo: gory details in src/pcl/vector.lisp 10:21:29 still, it is true that a tighter integration between pcl and the compiler would allow more to be done, occasionally at least 10:21:46 ...and allow for class sealing, for instance 10:22:08 well, that doesn't actually need the integration to be tightened 10:22:42 i see. thank you 10:23:18 i have a mostly-done patch for subclass inheritance sealing, superclass inheritance sealing, and slot location sealing somewhere, waiting for cleaning up 10:23:23 one more question, if i may: where is debugging info (xref, source form etc) stored? does it consume a pointer per function/... object? 10:23:35 or is it kept in a weak hash table? 10:24:05 referenced via pointers mostly 10:24:49 there used to be some hash-table based caches in the debugger as well, but i don't recall offhand if they are still there 10:25:16 beach: i recall that you wanted to use define-compiler-macro on set-functions at some point? 10:25:21 setf, even 10:25:45 kidd [n=kidd@80.31.143.150] has joined #lisp 10:28:37 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:29:49 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@99-186-122-131.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:07 nikodemus: I don't remember that. 10:30:29 ok. may have been someone else 10:30:47 Grmbl. *kicks himself and/or swank in the groin* 10:30:53 nikodemus: It could have been me, but I suspect not this time. 10:31:14 *beach* checks the logs 10:34:14 nikodemus: there was a related discussion I was involved in on 08.10.29. 10:34:34 but it was tcr that suggested a compiler macro. 10:35:38 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.90.43] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:35:41 nikodemus: Why did you bring it up? 10:37:22 ehu` [i=91dd3448@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-cafb51e3c35eeaf0] has joined #lisp 10:38:09 i just found my self wanting the same yesterday 10:40:33 and managed to make the build work with a constantp-aware get-setf-expander (the last time i ran into this a year or two back i couldn't figure out what broke and why) 10:40:39 (the answer is no, but why?) Wouldn't the setf-macro expand into something allready? Thus making a compile-time-macro for setf useless? 10:45:50 compiler-macros happen before normal macroexpansion. 10:46:58 Zhivago: yes, but wouldn't the result of the macroexpansion be thrown at the compiler-macros afterwards? Which would in turn allow for a compiler-macro to optimise the specific case. 10:47:44 First point is that the compiler-macro can get at the raw setf before it expands into something else. 10:47:51 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 10:48:24 But, sure. Compiler macros can apply to the expansion of a setf form, too. 10:48:55 i was referring to the second case 10:50:48 the only problem with compiler-macros on setf-functions is that typically (get-setf-expansion '(foo 1 2 3)) introduces temporaries for all arguments 10:50:59 so the compiler-macro won't see the constant arguments 10:52:02 nikodemus: can't the compiler see that these variables have a fixed-value too? (and thus propagate them) 10:52:37 caliostro [n=caliostr@82.85.85.34] has joined #lisp 10:53:11 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 10:54:06 uh, can't it sb-impl::%fun-type them? 10:55:45 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:57:46 madnificent: compiler-macros operate on the source, constant-propagation is done on non-source-form representation, and translating back to run compiler-macros is hard enough to be unfeasible 10:58:55 you'd have to stuff that into the env supplied to the compiler-macro 10:58:56 (though sure, we *could* do more optimizations on source representation, but there are a lot of things we *could* do...) 10:59:59 nikodemus: I think it colud make a lot of difference, yet you are clearly right: lots of things that can be done :) 11:00:23 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:03:53 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:04:24 and it's not clear to me that (macrolet ((foo (x &environment env) (constantp x env))) (let ((y 42)) (list y (foo y)))) is allowed to return (42 T) 11:04:43 is it common to have asdf completely fail to build systems at random times with cryptic errors, only to completely succeed on a second run with no changes, or only whitespace changes to a random file? 11:04:47 it's getting rather aggravating 11:05:27 it shouldn't be. I've never seen behaviour like it. 11:05:47 danderson: It would help to know what the error messages were. 11:05:53 anyways, better to provide supported hooks into non-source representations, so users can write transform which get the benefit the work the compiler does 11:06:49 working hard to make those same benefits to compiler-macros would be *neat*, but a lot harder, and possibly all benefits could not be had anyways 11:06:52 nikodemus: except that then such transformers would be implementation dependent. 11:07:00 sure 11:07:02 in this case, it's failing to compile the last of the lisp source files, complaining that a function defined in another file of the system is not defined. 11:07:23 the function is defined, placed in the correct package, and the file dependencies are correct. 11:08:09 but, if asdf is supposed to behave, then it's probably my code's fault. 11:08:15 minion: tell danderson about lisppaste 11:08:15 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 11:08:48 danderson: We really need to see what's going on, otherwise we can't make good suggestions. 11:08:54 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-16-47.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:07 danderson: when you say "function ... placed in the right package" I suspect you don't know what packages are about, since there is no such thing as a function in a package. 11:09:50 danderson: so it is entirely possible that the code that defines your function does not get executed when you think it is. 11:11:08 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:11:22 Hrm. Amusingly, the extremely verbose asdf load-op output does not include the fatal errors. 11:11:27 danderson pasted "asdf compile output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72947 11:12:08 danderson annotated #72947 with "debugger prompt during asdf:load-op" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72947#1 11:13:00 with that pasted, I think I know what might be wrong 11:13:07 possibly a misplaced eval-when 11:13:23 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:13:30 fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.116.244] has joined #lisp 11:14:12 seems likely, without seeing your code. 11:15:47 `git clone git://natulte.net/cl68k` if you feel like it; in its current state, the code does not compile, and if it did tests would fail. Very much WIP. 11:16:15 caliostro1 [n=caliostr@82.85.85.34] has joined #lisp 11:16:30 -!- caliostro [n=caliostr@82.85.85.34] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:16:33 heh. not from work :-) 11:16:44 but sure. I'll have a look later. 11:17:08 ehu`: irc is accepted at your job? 11:17:18 I'll likely have killed the bug by then, but if you want to laugh at the code and offer suggestions, that'd also be appreciated. 11:17:35 this is my second sizable CL program, and is probably rather horrible in various ways. 11:17:56 madnificent: I don't imagine it is all the time. However, today is slow. 11:19:08 danderson: sure. most of us went through that phase :-) 11:19:32 madnificent: but I'm trying to do an e-learing course and seem to be unable to access the required site. so, what should I do.... 11:20:01 ehu`: thepiratebay.org ``because you had to'' 11:21:12 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.158.204] has left #lisp 11:22:29 -!- caliostro1 [n=caliostr@82.85.85.34] has left #lisp 11:22:46 caliostro1 [n=caliostr@82.85.85.34] has joined #lisp 11:23:57 -!- Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-48714.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:25:45 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B40B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:26:21 Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-48714.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:30:42 too bad textbooktorrents is down 11:31:30 now that's lisp i know. code compiles without warnings, but that means exactly nothing, no false promises 11:31:52 nostoi [n=nostoi@146.Red-83-54-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:14 Where are your test cases? 11:32:24 in the repl 11:32:38 that gets tedious quick. 11:32:42 So you think that code compiled without warning promises anything in other programming languages? 11:33:02 no, but haskellite/ocamlite programmers subconsciously assume it does 11:33:06 "If it compiles it's good, if it boots it's perfect" :D 11:33:06 hence the "false promise" 11:33:17 I would want to start doing automated regression testing but I feel the frameworks are too cumbersome. 11:33:34 i can't even run it now, i need to define some subclasses first 11:33:55 (dolist (test '(test-cases...) :success) (assert (equal (f (first test)) (second test)))) is too cumbersome? 11:33:56 'cause the one right now says 'need to specialzie EXPAND-FORM on ~S' 11:34:05 *pjb* never understood the need for "frameworks". 11:34:31 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:35:48 pjb, you're taking an extreme point of view. it's not about somebody holding my hand, but something that reduces the overhead as much as possible, as well as adding functionality for good test reporting. 11:36:17 -!- Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-48714.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:36:22 tic_: do you have a PHB to which report test results? 11:38:37 there are plenty of low-overhead test "frameworks" for common lisp 11:39:37 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:39:41 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.76.82] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:39:54 Stefil looks very good, for example. (I've previously used only RT, but I'm definitely going to try Stefil for my next project.) 11:39:58 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.76.82] has joined #lisp 11:40:10 5am is also nice 11:40:53 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:49 I like RT in its simpleness. The version in the ansi-tests is really nice (because it evaluates its test-result arguments) 11:43:54 pjb, what's a PHB? 11:44:16 Has anyone used both Stefil and 5am? 11:44:36 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:44:36 -!- vy [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:44:58 tic_: http://aperiodic.net/phil/archives/Geekery/notes-on-lisp-testing-frameworks.html 11:45:06 vy [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 11:47:17 lichtblau, thanks! 11:47:43 Wonder how much they've changed in two years. 11:49:28 tic_: PHB = Pointy Heared Boss. Have a look at http://www.dilbert.com 11:49:39 bbl 11:50:00 I'm having a problem with swank-compile-file not catching fatal compiler errors on sbcl. The weird thing is, it doesn't happen in the actual call to compile-file, but when loading the resulting .fasl file. 11:50:01 pjb, I see. No, to myself. I like shiny graphs and pretty pictures. It makes me feel good inside. 11:51:18 swank-compile-file silently discards fatal compiler errors if they don't happen in the compilation step, this seems like a bug to me. I think the whole function should be wrapped in with-compilation-hooks. 11:52:02 http://paste.lisp.org/display/72951 11:52:08 is it stupid or more stupid? :) 11:52:12 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 11:52:51 -!- vy [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:53:01 vy [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 11:53:17 s/more/very 11:54:01 weirdo: Did you see my links earlier? ;O 11:54:09 Quadrescence, no, i did not 11:55:02 weirdo: --> http://rafb.net/p/WrOiOh12.html http://rafb.net/p/ZKp0oR82.html 11:55:28 so your lisp works? 11:55:33 did you write a GC yet? 11:55:40 a bad one 11:55:51 that just marks things by references 11:55:51 mark-and-sweep is fine too 11:55:57 references?! 11:56:15 What? :o 11:56:26 you could use the interpeter for the express purpose of bootstrapping sbcl 11:56:32 though xlisp is already dedicated to that 11:56:37 references break on circularities 11:56:40 you need a real gc 11:56:43 I do. 11:56:51 The gc I wrote is really... ....... 11:56:58 refcnt is not gc, btw 11:57:06 I guess not. 11:57:11 you need to: 11:57:46 if you keep portable, you need to keep the call stack in a variable 11:58:39 (if you consider ISO C89 portable, then it indeed is portable) 11:58:48 simply traverse all the slots in a compound structure and 'mark' them as you go 11:58:59 don't recurse on stuff that's marked already 11:59:05 stuff that isn't marked is garbage 11:59:21 unless you keep a copy of jemalloc.c (not portable for windoze), you need to keep track of allocations, too 11:59:43 make sure you do atomic GC blocks! 11:59:49 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@125.70.196.210] has joined #lisp 12:00:00 might come in handy for threads/non-atomic structures 12:00:05 as for tagging 12:00:11 i mean, typing, boxing 12:00:41 you could either make a char* dedicated to keeping the type and the rest a union of types 12:00:48 there are only 8 or so in sbcl 12:01:04 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:01:10 That is what I am currently doing. 12:01:16 you're implementing another lisp in C? 12:01:21 wow 12:01:39 OR, since you need only 8 types, you could make 29-bit fixnums and 29-bit address space 12:02:02 but i'm not sure how hard (and portable) it is to convince malloc(3) not to return address spaces over 29 bits 12:02:06 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:02:06 anyone knows? 12:02:16 don't we have enough implementations? I mean, some might need work, but spreading the available resources thinner isn't really a solution to that. 12:02:28 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2095.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:02:29 this is much more space-efficient, but it's not like you care about speed, this is an interpreter after all 12:02:53 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-121-32.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:03:10 you might want to replace unions with ad-hoc polymorphism aka type punning 12:03:14 even interpreters care about speed. 12:03:26 this should keep small stuff from being padded up to the size of a largest object 12:03:27 oh wait! 12:03:30 you don't need *that* 12:03:33 weirdo: ad-hoc polymorphism was difficult. :( 12:03:47 By difficult, I mean ugly. 12:03:55 just always allocate the the unionized type 12:03:55 I used (void*) for everything 12:04:03 not the union itself 12:04:10 and cast the unionized one to the union 12:04:11 Right. 12:04:26 do mark-and-sweep, maybe even add pthreads 12:04:27 ehu`: This is more a learning experience, to be honest. 12:04:30 but first! clos 12:04:39 do you have a copy of amop? 12:04:44 No. 12:05:14 ehu`: And the fact that compilers didn't compile on my iphone 12:05:15 :) 12:06:15 sure you can convince malloc to stay keep 29 bit address space: never request anything with a size less than 8 bytes. You can place your variable at the spot within those 8 bytes, considering the rest padding. 12:06:18 so, you're gonna have a MOP 12:06:27 generally 12:06:33 don't define stuff in c for performance reasons 12:06:35 oh 12:06:42 Quadrescence: right. I had the same problem with a PALM, until I realised that any symbol needs to store its name. 12:06:46 how's your variable access? 12:06:49 O(1) already? 12:06:53 (according to the CL spec) 12:06:58 that's a lot of memory to be consumed. 12:07:12 weirdo: for specials? 12:07:16 no, lexicals 12:07:41 with lexicals that should be possible. ABCL doesn't have that though. 12:07:45 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B631A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:00 ehu`, how does that work? helps with fragmentation? 12:08:16 8 bytes sounds like an overkill, though 12:08:19 you mean malloc() thing? 12:08:22 yes 12:08:40 wait, what? ABCL doesn't have O(1) lexical access? 12:08:48 what kind of a sick joke that impl is? 12:08:51 not in the interpreter 12:08:57 oh, interpreter... 12:09:07 faster than CLISP in some respects... 12:09:13 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit ["Quit"] 12:09:22 i'm so used to sbcl native-only 12:09:28 weirdo: I don't have O(1) access yet. I just used a binary tree for lookup of symbol names. I didn't look much into hash functions and whatnot. 12:09:35 8 bytes because if you allocate in units of 8 bytes, your "unit-address space" has become 29 bits 12:09:54 Quadrescence, just resolve variables into vector indices 12:09:59 that's funny. 12:10:16 abcl keeps a linked list of lexicals. 12:10:16 works great. 12:10:36 weirdo: Meh, I guess. 12:10:37 Quadrescence, each closure consists of a function body and a vector of free variables 12:10:40 and setting up new bindings doesn't require copying in the full list of pre-existing actuals. 12:10:54 Quadrescence, and have fun with environment objects! 12:10:57 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-121-32.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:11:45 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@146.Red-83-54-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 12:11:46 imo, there's a high cost to having O(1) access to all lexicals in any given environment, especially because of the number of environments constructed. 12:12:03 well, off to lunch... 12:12:14 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 12:12:19 Hi 12:12:33 Quadrescence, you can implement CLOS and structures in pure CL with the exception of the type and funcallable-object 12:12:35 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[away] 12:12:44 have fun with weak hashes! 12:12:52 have fun with thread safety! 12:12:54 tic_: FWIW, I recently switched from FiveAM to Stefil. This was because FiveAM introduced (for me at least) too much noise and overhead; running 40 tests under FiveAM was taking about three seconds, whereas I ran similar tests (that is to say, I had those 40 tests and three variations on them to end up with 160 tests in total) in less than 0.005 seconds or something like that with Stefil. 12:12:55 weirdo: iiinteresting. :o 12:13:16 Aankhen``, thanks! does it produce good output still though? 12:13:16 Quadrescence, just implement as much as you can in pure CL and screw performance 12:13:19 tic_: Now I'm running around 2,300 tests in 2–3 seconds under Stefil. 12:13:37 weirdo: I guess that would help with bootstrapping 12:13:49 bootstrapping? :) 12:13:50 not that that is its intention, necessarily. 12:13:54 hmm 12:13:59 But bootstrapping other CLs 12:14:06 tic_: Well, you still see the ./f/X similarly to FiveAM. The major useful feature is that a test failure signals a condition with useful restarts, including "Continue with no further debugging", "End this round of testing", and so on and so forth. 12:14:09 I use teh same philosophy in ABCL now. There's too much Java code. 12:14:10 (other CLs that don't suck) 12:14:10 just keep the core small :) 12:14:12 oh! 12:14:15 the most important thing 12:14:20 do you know what valgrind is? 12:14:21 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4cd4.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:14:22 Aankhen``, nice 12:14:25 weirdo: yes 12:14:28 Quadrescence, good! 12:14:31 tic_: Yeah, I really like the interactive approach. 12:14:32 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-121-32.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:14:33 and much of it could be implemented in Lisp, as long as there's a good interpreter available to bootstrap off. 12:14:56 tic_: The only problem is that now it seems to be blowing up on a test that expands to a 7,800 line STEFIL:DEFTEST form. 12:15:22 *ehu`* wonders if it would be required to keep the reader implemented in Java though: which came first, the chicken or the egg? 12:15:38 ehu`: the egg 12:15:53 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 12:15:56 right. 12:15:58 But I think you want to ask "what came first, the chicken, or the chicken egg" 12:15:59 :) 12:16:09 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 12:16:26 heh. 12:16:26 right. 12:16:26 *Aankhen``* wonders if gwking is on holiday or something. 12:16:34 Still no word on my application for hosting. :-S 12:16:50 (matches? 'literal-form 42) => t 12:16:50 ABCL didn't bootstrap from a Lisp implementation originally, so the Java reader ("the chicken") came first for bootstrapping, I'd say. 12:16:50 ok 12:17:38 lichtblau: it still doesn't: it only uses a Lisp to run some java commands. 12:17:43 anyway, I think that if you have a basic interpreter and a reader, it should be possible to bootstrap the rest of the environment. 12:17:51 what do you think? is crossposting the announcement to c.l.ocaml a good idea? 12:18:46 lichtblau: though being able to load the compiler into another lisp and compiling lisp code into java class files for use with ABCL is an interesting approach. 12:18:57 (ABCL could be the Lisp implementation itself) 12:18:58 crossposting is almost never a good idea 12:19:18 *ehu`* awai 12:22:12 Iron Treasury Common Lisp 12:22:24 Good name for a new CL, eh? 12:23:42 -!- ehu` [i=91dd3448@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-cafb51e3c35eeaf0] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 12:25:04 -!- CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:26:35 blitz_ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has joined #lisp 12:27:54 CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 12:28:35 -!- antoni [n=antoni@165.pool85-53-14.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:30:20 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@99-186-122-131.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:30:57 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:31:32 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 12:31:55 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:26 TimoT [n=ttossava@cs167168.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:34:30 hi 12:35:21 quick question: how are structure return values implemented in sb-alien? 12:35:27 yhara [n=yhara@ZC046088.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:36:33 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B631A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:36:43 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:38:03 wow, sbcl can pass c-structs by value? 12:38:17 TimoT, depending on the calling convention probably :P 12:38:48 c++ passes a pointer to a stack-allocated caller value as the first arg 12:39:28 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:42:40 TimoT: by-value not supported currently 12:43:05 I was trying to interface to a function that returns complex 12:43:06 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 12:43:24 but given sufficient knowledge of the ABI you should be able to fake it, i think 12:43:30 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:43:37 i would just use a wrapper, though 12:43:54 passing a pointer as the first hidden arg works, but not setting (array double-float 2) as the return value 12:45:00 -!- vy [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:45:10 vy [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 12:45:13 anyway, I'm bit rusty with this low level stuff, I'll have it figured out in a sec 12:45:42 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:50 TimoT, it prolly has a void retval 12:47:07 'morning 12:47:39 how does passing structs work? 12:47:58 is it ceil'ed to sizeof long? 12:48:25 I think the caller is supposed to allocate the return value and pass a pointer to it as a hidden argument, as mentioned above 12:48:47 so structs could be coerced into many sizeof long value 12:48:48 s 12:48:54 and faked that way 12:49:15 i mean passing, not receiving 12:49:39 yep, sorry, I don't know the specifics for that 12:50:45 so it should Just Work 12:50:49 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:50:50 care to add it to cffi? :) 12:53:09 -!- vy [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:56:53 user_ [n=user@p54926691.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:15 rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-49-70.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:02:31 weirdo: depends on the ABI, but I'm not aware of an ABI that treats struct the way you describe 13:03:16 for example, the powerpc abi actually special-cases on structs of only one member, and passes that member as if it hadn't been part of a struct in the first place. But it doesn't pretend that it's a long, it actually puts a float into a float register, for example. 13:04:56 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:06:44 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.244.113] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 13:08:22 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:16:35 maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #lisp 13:17:50 benny [n=benny@i577A14B8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:18:15 hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 13:18:45 -!- hugopt is now known as hugo 13:18:48 demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig112.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:18:55 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:19:12 oh 13:19:27 oh good, M-. in slime-repl no longer searches your current package, it searches COMMON-LISP-USER instead 13:19:40 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-16-47.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:30:20 c|mell [n=cmell@cad439-096.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:33:35 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 13:34:26 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:02 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:38:30 S11001001, upgrade, it's already fixed 13:38:43 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:39:01 hello lispers 13:39:22 pressing update button to go 13:40:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A14B8.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:41:16 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 13:41:36 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:02 weirdo: I implemented much of the the plumbing for that here: http://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/patches/more-llong-emulation.diff 13:45:16 hello kiuma 13:45:29 hi madnificent 13:46:27 kiuma: claw-central is still not new! How's Elena? 13:47:54 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-26-180.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 13:49:06 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:49:20 Elena is really fine, but a little lazy, this morning she was sleeping, not eating milk :) 13:49:55 I'll be to the hospital this evening, hoping she's awake :) 13:50:08 -!- ehu_ is now known as ehu` 13:50:20 kiuma: her being lazy should provide you with sleep at night, which is good 13:51:56 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:54:25 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:54:58 antoni [n=antoni@7.pool85-53-25.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 13:55:07 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.200.55] has joined #lisp 13:55:08 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5c0d.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:56:32 madnificent, yep I hope she'll continue :) 13:56:49 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 13:56:49 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:57:04 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-56.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:21 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279439877.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:01:11 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:01:20 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.200.55] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 14:02:03 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 14:03:17 mega1 [n=mega@53d823fb.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 14:05:12 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-26-180.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:05:32 nikodemus: if I'm subscribed to all things sbcl on launchpad then there is no need to subscribe to sbcl-bugs, right? 14:06:08 no, unless you want to help administer it :) 14:07:42 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-121-32.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:08:34 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 14:09:35 -!- user_ [n=user@p54926691.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:43 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:10 I can't find a lisp library to parse http headers 14:10:22 something which could handle http 1.0 and 1.1 14:10:38 does somebody know a lib for this ? 14:11:05 galdor: drakma certainly does it, but under the hood I think 14:11:21 and/or hunchentoot 14:11:30 yep :) 14:11:58 mhh drakma seems to do the job 14:12:04 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4cd4.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:22 user_ [n=user@p54926466.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:30 Mazingaro [n=tetsuja@host74-228-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:12:32 and http://common-lisp.net/~lnostdal/programming/lisp/sw-http/ 14:12:34 Then again, I fail to see how a single loop expression needs to be encapsulated into a public library... 14:12:54 nikodemus: I've renamed the shadowed DOCUMENTATION to DOCUMENTATION* for cleaner exportability. Now we're considering renaming it to STRUCTURED-DOCUMENTATION. Do you have any other ideas? 14:13:15 gonna try drakma, it's to do some web automatization 14:14:03 I agree with tcr that we should distinguish the CLOSy version from a "stringy" version by name, but STRUCTURED-DOCUMENTATION doesn't sound very catchy. 14:14:14 documentation-object ? 14:14:47 for sw-http, I don't want to be harsk, but I would't like a projet which doesn't use english to describe it's package: :long-description "Tusen på tusen av nydelige løpenoter og hvilenoter" 14:14:48 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:52 binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.200.55] has joined #lisp 14:14:57 -!- binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.200.55] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:16:22 galdor, it's a joke 14:16:41 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cad439-096.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:16:42 perhaps, I don'tk now this langage :) 14:16:50 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8ac8-162.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:16:59 I'm feeling unhappy about the whole "DOCUMENTATION" meme. (Abbreviation as "DOC" sounds even worse.) 14:17:04 and i don't care tbh. .. there is 0 documentation anyway .. it's a very simple http server that was made for scalability (highly concurrent) and speed only .. it's probably not what you're after 14:17:40 (i.e., there is no need for a description or documentation..) 14:18:20 lnostdal: it seems usual in the lisp world to release code without doc 14:18:29 galdor, yes 14:18:40 info? 14:18:53 galdor: the projects considered to be of high quality definitely come with documentation! 14:20:48 oh, i dunno .. iolib has less (none i think) docs than usocket, say .. but for my uses it has been much better 14:21:54 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.243.195] has joined #lisp 14:21:58 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 14:22:40 but i think you're looking for drakma, galdor .. as mentioned 14:23:14 lnostdal: yep, I'm asdf-ing it 14:26:25 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p548969E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:31 -!- demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig112.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has left #lisp 14:28:50 nyef [n=nyef@64.222.164.52] has joined #lisp 14:28:59 G'morning all. 14:29:13 magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has joined #lisp 14:29:54 galdor: It's also usual that such code is used by the person who wrote it only. 14:31:01 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:31:05 nikodemus: I don't quite see the point of sbcl-bugs. Isn't it just an administrative burden? Why can't you people expect to enter stuff in the bug tracker itself? 14:31:18 Why can't you expect people 14:32:23 Do we have a new SBCL yet? 14:32:31 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-106-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:39 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:48 lichtblau: Does FANCY-DOCUMENTATION sound more catchy to you? (And sorry that I haven't taken up on the discussion that arised on editor-hints. I haven't had time.) 14:34:35 GET-DOCUMENTATION-TEMPLATE? 14:35:02 tcr: it's a common problem with some C libraries too :) 14:35:30 absolutely! FANCY-DOCUMENTATION sounds great 14:35:43 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8ac8-162.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:05 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8ac8-162.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:36:53 I felt that the discussion wasn't entirely fruitful, because I'm trying to come up with a design that makes any many people happy as possible, but I can't make everyone happy equally. 14:37:06 ouch people I've got troubles 14:37:16 ... "as many people" 14:37:24 so I have this tiny test.lisp which uses cl-ppcre and drakma 14:37:41 it doesn't do anything but requireing the 2 modules 14:37:52 it takes 3.2s to be run using sbcl --script 14:37:58 on a 2GHz system 14:38:10 what the heck is going on 14:38:25 compile nd link edit. 14:38:32 it seems drakma uses a lot of other packages, and sbcl takes a lot of time to load all of them 14:38:42 yes 14:39:11 galdor: it certainly does. Dump a core file with cl-ppcre and drakma pre-loaded. It will be almost instantenous then. 14:39:30 -!- awayfk [n=Jimi__He@unaffiliated/jimihendrix/x-735601] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:39:31 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.76.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:39:37 is there a reason why lisp takes so much time, while perl can dynamically load dozens of modules in 10 less time ? 14:39:54 I mean yes, I could dump a core, but I need a small and fast script 14:40:12 I'm not gonna drag a 30Mb core for this 14:40:23 galdor, sbcl's compiler's heavily optimizing 14:40:34 tcr, re arglist: I looked again, and I use the same code as does slime.el. (swank:arglist-for-echo-area '(("+"))) is what's sent out. And Swank obviously understands it as I get an :OK, but its value is nil. Any pointers on where I might want to look? 14:40:35 try sb-eval or clisp 14:40:39 No, no... This is almost entirely fasload time, isn't it? 14:40:48 it's not compiling anything 14:40:55 don't restart the lisp process all the time then .. i assume you have a set of interesting urls or whatever you'd like to work on .. don't reload the entire world for each iteration step 14:41:12 galdor: Often, fasl loading is so extremely slow in SBCL only because of CLOS use. The SBCL developers follow the specification very strictly, while other Lisp implementation are a little laxer for speed. Blame Xof. 14:41:37 Don't know whether that's actually your problem in this case, but it's one problem that is hard to overcome. 14:41:40 lnostdal: it's just a script to hack a web page, not a fully featured application 14:41:41 galdor, it's not The Lisp Way to execute lisp as a command 14:41:49 The Lisp Way is to run a persistent image 14:41:50 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:41:52 weirdo: I understand that, it's fine for some usages 14:42:02 not for some others 14:42:02 weirdo: I'm not a big fan of that Lisp Way. 14:42:19 galdor, ok, then i wouldn't bother with lisp as-is today 14:42:28 nyef, i'm fine with it for particular applications 14:42:50 in perl, I write my web bot script, it uses 1 ou 2 kb, I run it in 200ms, it's fine 14:42:59 it'd be great if some dev finally cdred their todo list to tree shaking and fasl cleanup 14:43:00 :) 14:43:08 same thing in python, ruby, even in C 14:43:11 weirdo: Yeah, for some applications it's fine. But... It's an obnoxious limitation with a small army of unsatisfying workarounds for others. 14:43:27 And I'm not a fan of the idea of tree-shaking, either. 14:43:33 galdor: use CLISP then 14:43:43 galdor, it's a matter of tradeoffs. try a cpu-bound algorithm 14:43:48 i don't think clisp has much faster fasl loading, S11001001 14:43:50 I don't know enough lisp to understand what it takes so much time 14:43:53 yeah, clisp's very unixish 14:43:57 lnostdal: it's alot faster than SBCL 14:44:02 ok 14:44:11 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B40B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:44:12 I could try clisp, just gonna have to reconfigure asdf 14:44:36 galdor: I say writing scripts that you start up and run quite often in lisp seems a bit dumb :) 14:44:36 galdor: OpenMCL aka Clozure CL is also much faster at this than SBCL 14:44:52 tcr: it's an administrative burden i'm happy to bear if it makes users happy -- i really don't expect every sbcl user to register to launchpad or subscribe to a mailing list, and i'd still like them to be able to report bugs 14:44:54 *nyef* is rapidly becoming not a fan of mozilla thunderbird. 14:44:55 galdor: I mean if they're just small lil' things to do I dunno what. 14:45:14 nyef, It Sucks Less! 14:45:16 but please believe me, it's a real turn off 14:45:36 (the devious plan is to lower the threshold which in turn will hopefully make *more* people register & subscribe) 14:45:37 Ok. I believe you. 14:45:37 schme: I begin to love the lisp language 14:45:55 try the "opposite big task" in python, perl, c whatever .. that's a turnoff too, galdor 14:46:00 and so I'd like to use it 14:46:07 lnostdal: you're write 14:46:12 right sorry 14:46:15 galdor: SBCL is a memory-hungry, slow-moving dinasaur compared to OpenMCL when it comes to compilation and fasl loading. Don't let SBCL turn you off, try the alternatives. 14:46:19 (I'm french, sorry for the language) 14:46:31 galdor: and if you do dump a core in CLISP, it's a few megabytes 14:46:37 galdor: It's ok. We can't blame you for all of the french language. 14:46:54 sbcl seems to evolve very quick 14:46:59 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B40B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:09 pleading is not enough, eh? time to run a donation drive for a tree shaker... 14:47:29 weirdo: Again, I don't believe that a tree-shaker is the right solution. 14:47:41 weirdo: money is not a solution... 14:47:44 then what? asdfization? 14:47:47 it rarely is 14:47:50 this means that we're about to discuss GUI next, is it? 14:48:05 I'd rather discuss GIT next, actually. 14:48:12 (I like git :)) 14:48:15 galdor, i recall asking dhartmei@ and friends to support some stuff in altq. they said to throw money at them :D 14:48:21 nyef, the Linus variety or another TLA? 14:48:21 Was there a guide to hacking SBCL with git instead of CVS, and if so where can I find it? 14:48:27 aggieben [i=3ff63839@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1cdc1d334a0e190d] has joined #lisp 14:48:38 any ltk users? 14:48:40 nyef: in the tree 14:48:43 *laughs* 14:48:43 weirdo: lot of opensource developpers do it 'cause they love it 14:48:46 ... Of course. 14:48:59 ask them to do something they don't like, they'll ask for money 14:49:01 that's natural 14:49:04 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E4504C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:09 Thanks. I'll go looking for that. 14:49:30 galdor, yeah, that wasn't a use case for any of them, actually 14:50:21 ihmo, I'd like a lisp implementation which would'nt be a kludge 14:50:37 I know the lisp standard is TEH standard, that we should'nt change it, etc. 14:50:47 but it's a heck of a kludge 14:51:05 I used some chicken scheme some weeks ago 14:51:09 light, fast, nice 14:51:09 a multiuser lispm with a copy-on-write system-part-of-the-image would be great 14:51:24 First you say you want a an _implementation_ that isn't a kludge. Then it's the standard. Which is it? 14:51:35 I prefer lisp to scheme though 14:51:37 galdor, chicken won't even do dynamic compilation... 14:51:39 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 14:51:40 what about clojure? 14:51:47 how can an implementation be a kludge? 14:52:03 tic_: ok, bad word, let's say just 'language derived from lisp' 14:52:06 or dialect 14:52:23 imo scheme's only suitable for teaching FP 14:52:23 aggieben: don't like the java vm 14:52:43 they added all the bangs so students are *forced* to avoid procedural style 14:53:00 scheme is transforming into a kludge 14:53:06 but it doesn't even have keywords or user-defined types 14:53:14 there was a small standard 14:53:31 galdor, so, you think the Common Lisp standard is broken, then? 14:53:42 r6rs isn't really respected by anyone 14:53:50 now it balkanized 14:53:52 weirdo: You know, there's probably a good case for having multiple separate address spaces and a distinct kernel in a LispOS, not this single-address-space integrated scenario. 14:54:06 people writing "plt scheme" or whatever butchered offspring 14:54:25 complete with a cps-enabled webserver and other cruft 14:54:27 tic_: I don't know, there seems to be a use case for everything, but it's just too much 14:54:39 >1000 lines is too much 14:54:49 galdor, who forces you to use all functions and macros in each of your programs? 14:54:58 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:54:58 nyef, copy-on-write and int 128 hurts, though 14:55:00 you can't write a new conforming implementation without years of work 14:55:03 ugh! 14:55:10 s/copy-on-write/copyin 14:55:17 so there's no new shiny work 14:55:28 I see a lot of small things in scheme 14:55:29 galdor, so new is always better? 14:55:54 tic_: not always, but it adds dynamism ("sang neuf" in french) 14:56:01 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8ac8-162.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:22 always good to see new things, you're not forced to use them 14:56:32 let's see arc 14:56:35 new and shiny 14:56:37 not perfect 14:56:38 galdor, rumours has it there are already a few open-source Lisps around. Surely you could help hacking on them to improve what it is you want to improve? 14:56:40 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a94-103.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:57:11 -!- TimoT [n=ttossava@cs167168.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:57:13 tic_: for the moment I'm learning lisp, so I just try to accomplish some tasks with it 14:57:21 it's the old "do it yourself problem" 14:57:40 weirdo: Int 128 hurts, maybe, but there are potentially-faster mechanisms for modern x86 linux, and they are set up to be used automatically in most cases. And non-x86 linux (including x86-64) doesn't even bother with int 0x80. 14:57:41 I don't want to develop a lisp, I want to program a web bot 14:58:10 galdor, yet you've come to the conclusion that Common Lisp is a too large language, which ultimately will lead to the Lisp world stagnating? 14:58:13 nyef, SYSCALL/SYSENTER performance gain is negligible and a joke compared to running in protected mode all the time 14:58:49 weirdo: Fine. You want to take over SBCL-os? 14:59:00 nyef, no, i lack required skills :| 14:59:02 tic_: seems a good summary 14:59:06 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 14:59:09 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has joined #lisp 14:59:13 maybe a couple cdrs down my todo list i'll learn 386 assembly 14:59:13 weirdo: What better way to gain the required skills, though? 14:59:24 I'm not a good judge of lisp, I'm a C hacker at core :p 14:59:26 Umm... I already -did- most of the assembly junk. 14:59:28 galdor, "Less talk, more code", perhaps? 14:59:40 nyef, i have a couple of projects to cdr down. but i'll become a dev eventually 14:59:58 galdor, write a DSL for web parsing :) 15:00:01 galdor, i.e. it's hard to judge something without experience. that said, if you come fresh to something you can sometimes spot the faults better. 15:00:05 tic_: today I tried to code with lisp, now I'm gonna use perl to do the job, sorry 15:00:23 galdor, pattern matching seems perfect, and i'm writing one right now. look for "ANN: toadstool 0.1" on cll :) 15:00:32 galdor, have you seen the ALICE project? 15:00:39 aggieben: nope 15:00:51 galdor: start here: http://alicebot.blogspot.com/ 15:01:03 weirdo: I was trying to do a WWW::Mechanize-style lib for lisp, just can't wait 3.5s to run each script 15:01:39 AIML is an AI-centric XML schema and there's a project just for creating and hosting web bots using it 15:01:58 I think it's called pandorabot or something like that, but fish around from alicebot and you'll find it. 15:02:19 seems nice, but I just want to go on a page web, grab some stuff, auth, change some things, etc. ! 15:02:30 -!- Reaver_11 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 15:02:30 naive question 15:02:43 why not have a shared lisp instance, used by all scripts ? 15:02:48 would be a simple daemon 15:02:50 galdor, are you sure you cannot pre-load cl-ppcre/drakma/etc. once .. then experiment and/or execute the "scripts" you want on a set of urls etc. in sequence without, again, reloading the entire world?? 15:02:53 run, receives requests 15:02:54 galdor, btw, lisp has usable threading how unlike perl 15:03:17 galdor: go for it 15:03:29 perl's slower than fork and ipc-through-pipes 15:03:36 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:03:43 kiuma pasted "Help: There is no class named TEST-OP" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72956 15:03:43 hell the daemon part is written for you, just write the client part 15:03:57 yes, lisp _already_ is a daemon 15:03:59 perl isn't perfect, I know 15:04:01 Could you help me please, I'm getting lost 15:04:17 lnostdal: so I'd run a sbcl instance, then just connect to it to do some stuff... 15:04:28 yes, galdor 15:04:31 have to think about it, it's interesting 15:04:51 the instance could load anything I need and stay running 15:04:55 yes 15:07:00 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Connecting-to-a-remote-lisp.html the word "remote" is used here, but slime+swank already is split in two parts even if you don't notice it and do things locally only 15:07:35 which means you can "disconnect", then "reconnect" later .. locally .. ofc. 15:07:58 FZ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 15:08:02 got some work to do, but you definitely help me, got a lot to think now 15:08:42 `screen' or `detachtty' sometimes fit in here btw. 15:09:34 the problem is that If I call RETRY in repl it works, why ? 15:10:58 tic_: how do you try to use it? 15:12:24 tcr, I tried just sending it raw through netcat, i.e. 0000XX(:emacs... (swank:arglist ....) t 3) -- the format used. 15:12:37 kiuma: test-op is a symbol from asdf, you're referring to cl-user::test-op instead 15:12:38 alas, I don't have the source here at the moment. 15:13:06 kiuma: you souldn't do anything in cl-user anyway, leave out the in-package and use asdf's auto-package (which imports asdf symbols) 15:13:22 syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:38 kpreid: Do I remember rightly that the auto-package doesn't get made in some scenarios? 15:13:52 well, maybe slime doesn't :-) 15:14:07 in which case defpackage+in-package at the top is a better idea 15:14:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:15:05 Hunh. The last three .asd files I wrote have an interesting pattern to them. 15:15:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:18 All symbols are either keywords, asdf:defsystem, or T. 15:16:18 kpreid, just discovered thanks! 15:16:27 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@125.70.196.210] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:16:32 minion: memo for fooquux: See my slime presentation (http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/slime-talk-2008.pdf), I briefly talked about the different contexts Slime uses (determination of *package* falls among them). 15:16:33 Remembered. I'll tell fooquux when he/she/it next speaks. 15:16:38 dys`` [n=andreas@p5B314C99.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:10 tcr: thanks for putting that talk online, it has been helpful to me 15:18:33 I'm creating a cms in claw for claw-central.org (made with claw). For the search engin I need a web crawler for indexing pages. I know the existence of montezuma, but it lacks the crawler. Do you know anything to feet my needs 15:19:28 blitz_ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has joined #lisp 15:19:43 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 15:20:05 benny [n=benny@i577A14B8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:20:07 tic_: Fire up Emacs, M-x slime, (setf swank:*log-events* t), What is printed to the REPL (or perhaps *inferior-lisp*) is what is done in the swank server. What is printed to the buffer *slime-events* is what is sent from Emacs. 15:20:30 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B631A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:51 tcr, thanks! That will be very useful! Just gotta learn how to setup slime first. :) 15:21:20 Hrm. Is SBCL 1.0.24 out-but-not-announced or something? 15:21:46 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 15:22:30 -!- dys` [n=andreas@p5B315C8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:45 I announced it to sbcl-announce 15:22:55 Ahh, okay. 15:23:49 -!- nyef changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . New: usocket 0.4.1, ABCL 0.12, SBCL 1.0.24, cl-net-snmp 5.19, yason-0.1, trivial-features 0.4, CFFI 0.10.3, series 2.2.10 15:23:49 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d823fb.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:24:14 -!- luis changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming . New: SBCL 1.0.24, usocket 0.4.1, ABCL 0.12, cl-net-snmp 5.19, yason-0.1, trivial-features 0.4, CFFI 0.10.3, series 2.2.10 15:24:17 I think the website might be out of date as well. 15:24:38 no binaries made yet 15:24:44 Ah. 15:25:11 Is there some disadvantage to building binaries automatically? 15:26:14 aside from needing a farm we don't have, nothing springs to mind 15:26:28 nikodemus: what about the SBCL buildbot? 15:26:33 s/farm/dedicated box or two/ 15:26:46 it runs on random users machines 15:27:10 i'm a bit leery of distributing binaries whose build-host is not well-known 15:27:13 mulligan [n=user@e178027156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:27:19 Fair enough. 15:28:01 well, not random users, but folks who have kindly set up their boxes to run with the bot 15:28:39 -!- magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:26 magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has joined #lisp 15:30:57 aren't various binaries contributed by random users, too? 15:32:44 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.246.93] has joined #lisp 15:33:24 true 15:33:45 though at least we have a decent idea *who* contributed them 15:34:02 though i don't think most contributions come with signatures 15:34:47 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:51 binaries with *some* trust would be good... 15:35:32 I sign the binaries I build. 15:35:49 There are no signatures on the source tarballs that I fetch, though. 15:35:53 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:36:37 And I don't think anybody does anything with the signatures I make for the binaries. 15:37:13 We use 'em to forge signatures for other binaries. 15:37:25 Um, right. 15:43:45 crod [n=cmell@cb8a54-030.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:43:53 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a94-103.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:44:59 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:58 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 15:48:39 -!- aggieben [i=3ff63839@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1cdc1d334a0e190d] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:50:46 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.243.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:05 matley [n=matley@83.224.198.234] has joined #lisp 15:51:51 aggieben [i=3ff63839@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fbd9e73806ce56a3] has joined #lisp 15:52:09 what happened to chris beggy's mod_lisp tutorial? It's not even in the google cace 15:52:11 cache 15:52:25 S11001001: Do you have a launchpad or any openID account? (google, blogger.com) 15:52:38 tcr: https://me.yahoo.com/s11 15:54:17 S11001001: Ok, it seems you need to register for launchpad (where you can use that ID, though, I think) 15:56:40 aggieben, just a note that i think mod_proxy (for any server; apache, lighttpd, nginx) is a much more commonly used way to connect lisp with the http server these days 15:57:04 hmm sorry, it is s11001001 15:57:08 I thought I had aliased it 15:57:20 in the openid url that is to say 15:57:55 I guess I didn't alias it because yahoo doesn't accept <4 chars for the alias 15:58:43 -!- schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4dbb6188a463c31b] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:58:58 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:01:14 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:59 tcr: by the way, what is this for? 16:04:55 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:00 rtra_ [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 16:06:46 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:33 -!- magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:36 S11001001: I wanted to subscribe you to the bug. 16:08:15 oh, well anyway my lp id is S11001001 (shocker) 16:09:26 -!- rtra_ is now known as rtra 16:15:05 magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has joined #lisp 16:17:18 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:18:09 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:22:07 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:22:51 -!- Mazingaro [n=tetsuja@host74-228-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["There are 10 kind of people in the World: those who understand binary code and those who do not."] 16:24:52 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:29:13 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:31:00 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:32:23 hey 16:32:31 how hard is it to define custom indentation in scheme? 16:33:18 i've got something like defgeneric, the next argument isn't supposed to be indented much, but it gets indented to the previous elt 16:34:23 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:27 -!- bryte [n=user@c-24-21-34-206.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:34:32 blitz__ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has joined #lisp 16:34:34 looking into getting a vps, you rekon 120 meg of ram is enough for hunchentoot etc with SBCL? 16:34:47 bryte [n=user@c-24-21-34-206.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:20 weirdo: probably set the lisp-indent-function symbol-plist thing to number of extra-dented args 16:35:21 weirdo: Do you use Emacs? 16:35:31 tcr, i do, 23.0 16:35:48 then what S11001001 said 16:35:50 nicolas [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:53 kzar: if I were you, I'd install a virtual machine to test it... Then afterwards, you can just move your tested image to the server. 16:35:55 of course that won't help you if you have a qualifiers arg; you'd need to look at the more complicated semantics to get that right 16:36:46 kzar: you can easily stress-test it and see how well it performs with different amounts of memory assigned to it 16:38:09 madnificent: You know what that's a pretty great idea, why didn't I think of that 16:38:09 -!- nicolas [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:38:45 kzar: because you were looking at server images, and they're cool :P 16:39:05 nicolas [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:06 madnificent: is there a tool to stress test a webpage? 16:41:36 -!- blitz__ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has quit ["leaving"] 16:41:57 vasa [n=vasa@mm-54-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 16:42:12 -!- bryte [n=user@c-24-21-34-206.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:42:31 bryte [n=user@c-24-21-34-206.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:40 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 16:43:03 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 16:43:30 kzar: yes, there was a little tool for that, but I can't quite remember the name... 16:44:21 -!- nicolas [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:44:23 apache bench is one 16:44:59 ..something simple written with drakma might work too 16:45:00 curl-loader is what I once used 16:45:38 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:42 kzar: generally they do care about usefull data :P http://www.hpl.hp.com/research/linux/httperf/ 16:47:49 kzar: or better yet, write a tool for CL, so we can all benchmark with more fun :D 16:49:03 kenjin [n=kenjin@210.223.99.210] has joined #lisp 16:49:06 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-171.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:26 I'd probably break the internet heh 16:49:47 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:57 -!- caliostro1 [n=caliostr@82.85.85.34] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:53:02 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.243.149] has joined #lisp 16:53:44 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:58:32 qen [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 16:58:54 so how do i make an :allocation :class slot have its value when subclassing? 16:59:00 -!- qen is now known as Guest77826 16:59:02 :default-initarg doesn't work 16:59:06 initargs* 16:59:28 i could create a slot with the same symbol... 16:59:30 but it's bad 17:00:07 and how should i get at those? class-prototype doesn't seem like a good solution 17:00:46 :class slots are not class slots like in java 17:01:06 What about using some other mechanism for your private class data? 17:01:10 they're pretty much a space saving optimization, not a semantically class slot 17:01:15 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.246.93] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:24 *Aankhen``* used custom metaclasses for that stuff. 17:01:30 nyef, maybe method defined for the prototype. thanks. 17:01:40 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:01:51 Aankhen`` has it -- if you need slots actually in the class objects, a metaclass with extra slots is the way to go 17:02:31 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-17-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:13 -!- antoni [n=antoni@7.pool85-53-25.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:03:26 antoni [n=antoni@7.pool85-53-25.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:04:53 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:01 ironChicken [n=richard@host81-141-39-58.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 17:06:28 ferada [n=ferada@e179238077.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:06 nikodemus: I've got conditional moves on x86-64. There's basically no downside VS branches on a K10, but up to 10-15% slowdown on my Core 2. 17:07:23 Hmm, I'm having trouble coming up with a use case for :class allocation that wouldn't be better served by a slot on the class itself. 17:07:56 I guess I have no imagination. 17:08:22 nikodemus: Thanks for committing deftype-lambda-list. I just committed the relevant bits to swank-sbcl. Arglists of user-defined types are displayed on SBCL. 17:09:23 Aankhen``: class slots more portable than MOP? 17:09:31 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 17:09:39 So even if they're less elegant, you might prefer them where you could limp by with them. 17:09:49 rpg: Ah, that seems like a good reason. 17:10:21 I ended up pulling CLOSER-MOP into my dependencies just for `validate-superclasses'. 17:10:33 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:43 is it safe/sane to run reinitialize-instance fro :after initialize-instance? 17:11:12 nikodemus/pkhuong: Should I commit http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/random-sbcl-patches/reunite-sub-access-and-set-debug-var-slot.diff ? 17:11:23 it'll run shared-initialize instead of recursing, right? 17:11:54 anyone using cl-opengl? the first time a run an example everything works fine, the next times, indirect rendering is activated ... 17:12:54 you're probably using ATI 17:13:21 with fglrx, yes 17:15:58 Aankhen``: OK, then you've already sucked up the cost for handling inter-implementation MOP differences. Go ahead and use metaclasses! 17:16:32 rpg: Yeah, I did. I was just grumbling. :-P 17:17:46 Now I'm wondering whether to include META-SEXP wholesale in my code or write yet another half-baked implementation of META. 17:17:59 Er, didn't mean to imply META-SEXP was half-baked. That came out wrong. 17:18:36 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:19:04 Aankhen``: Just looked up class slots in Keene's book --- no compelling use case for them that I could see. 17:19:10 cf. p. 66... 17:19:30 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:19:49 rpg: I don't have that, unfortunately. The only Lisp-related book I have is AMOP. 17:19:55 But I'll take your word for it. ;-) 17:20:18 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.198.234] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:28 -!- antoni [n=antoni@7.pool85-53-25.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 17:20:30 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.250.96] has joined #lisp 17:20:50 antoni [n=antoni@7.pool85-53-25.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:22:05 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:22:42 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:53 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:04 weirdo: and thats normal with the ati drivers, or what? i can't find anything useful elsewhere 17:26:00 ferada, ati runs into all sorts of problems under linux/bsd 17:26:11 it's a liability 17:26:28 blitz__ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has joined #lisp 17:26:31 gna, yes it is :( 17:26:31 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:29:16 drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:35 -!- Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["Go Canada!"] 17:29:44 keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:42 -!- magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:33:50 weirdo: nvidia isn't really funny under bsd either 17:33:58 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.243.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:35:38 nvidia developers send a message to freebsd-kernel mailing list about the problems they want to be fixed in freebsd kernel 17:35:55 -!- ferada [n=ferada@e179238077.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:35:58 this was two and a half years ago 17:37:11 ferada [n=ferada@e179238077.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:37:44 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:47 and apparently its one of the best ways to crash a computer -.- 17:37:49 Heh. I'm holding out hope for the open-source nvidia drivers not sucking at some point this year. 17:38:21 good afternoon 17:38:58 evenin' 17:38:58 Hello fusss. 17:39:00 madnificent, yeah, amd64 nonexistent etc 17:39:18 i don't play vidya anymore, but gl for mplayer's a big performance boost 17:40:05 It is? 17:40:19 anyone seen this lisp web app frame work? http://www.kanamitweb.net/ 17:40:42 it's even sponsored by Linux magazine and has screencasts 17:40:54 Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@p54926466.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:10 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D0D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:01 Being ported to symbolics 3600!! 17:42:01 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:42:05 fusss: released on April 1st. 17:42:32 luis: ahhh, that's why non of the links work :) 17:42:47 LoL@podcast :) 17:43:18 magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has joined #lisp 17:43:19 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:27 their javascript is broken on opera 17:43:32 If that's an example of a site built using the framework, I'll pass. It uses XHTML to build a page filled with `br`s, layout tables, and completely JS-dependent navigation. Oh, and their JS is b0rked. 17:43:32 so much for "web 2.0" 17:44:37 weirdo, I too noticed that. 17:44:39 wow, the hacker news "press release" reads weird 17:44:41 Haha. They pull in JS from Google, Slashdot, digg, reddit, and Google Syndication, and finally break it all by messing up the last `script` block they stuck in the page. 17:44:57 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=158087 17:45:01 -!- kenjin [n=kenjin@210.223.99.210] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:28 they cancelled the project until they "fix" the website! 17:45:32 NEXT! 17:45:43 fusss: are you serious? 17:45:58 -!- Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@p54926466.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Client Quit"] 17:46:06 it's in the ycomb link above. no kidding. 17:46:17 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:46:33 fusss: have you heard about ? 17:46:35 it's a fucking prank 17:46:37 Heh. Cute prank. 17:47:16 pranks shouldn't last past april 2nd, and you don't put pranks on cliki http://www.cliki.net/webframeworkmatrix 17:47:17 fusss: no shit sherlock. 17:48:12 nyef: less conditionalisation sounds good. 17:48:12 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:28 user____ [n=user@p54926466.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:30 pkhuong: But that's the thing. In absolute terms, it's -more- conditionals. 17:48:44 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:20 any way to fill in lisppaste's captcha automagically? 17:49:22 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 17:49:31 weirdo: use the XML-RPC interface 17:49:51 It highlights the way to fewer conditionals, and shows where there are platform inconsistencies in the way a few things are done, and highlights a few bugs. 17:50:11 And it shrinks the file, reduces duplication, and so on. 17:50:12 pkhuong, that's great, thanks! 17:50:21 But in absolute terms, it's more conditionals. 17:50:52 fusss: heh, that's a cool link. If I finish mine, I'll add it there :) 17:51:57 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 17:52:19 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:52 sbcl-only seems a strange answer to GUI or conception tools (whatever that may mean) 17:55:20 weirdo pasted "this is a test paste using xml-rpc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72961 17:55:31 booya. it even opened in emacs-w3m 17:56:43 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:00:54 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:02:25 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.230.81] has joined #lisp 18:05:06 *nyef* still loves how non-x86oid SBCL screws up when trying to store complex values that are stored on the number stack from within the debugger. 18:05:51 -!- yhara [n=yhara@ZC046088.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:07:41 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:46 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:28 angel_ [n=antani@host74-228-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:09:43 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:12:16 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@99-186-122-131.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:18 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-24-16-246-158.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:13:11 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p548969E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:15:13 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:15:31 When SBCL says "Not supported in unithread builds." when I try to create a thread, does that mean I have not compiled sbcl with threads? 18:16:02 magnus__: exactly. 18:17:41 Alright, so I have tried to recompile it, following the customization part in the INSTALL file. No luck so far. 18:19:06 When I run "sh make.sh" I get "unhandled condition in --disable-debugger mode, quitting". Thids 18:19:26 This happens when I have a customization file. 18:19:36 Without it, the compile goes through 18:20:10 magnus__: perhaps your customization file is malformed 18:20:11 magnus__: paste your customize-target-features.lisp 18:21:06 It is basically the example snippet in INSTALL. I'll paste it in a sec 18:21:11 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@99-186-122-131.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:21:59 magnus___ pasted "compile custom sbcl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72963 18:23:32 magnus__: "Solaris" isn't commented out. 18:23:46 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-106-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:23:46 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:02 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a54-030.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:24:44 Argh! Cut 'n Paste strikes again! 18:24:50 Thanks 18:26:53 wrt thread-local specials 18:27:17 is it any different doing SYMBOL-VALUE from just plain literal variable reference? 18:28:00 weirdo: no. 18:28:41 now a dilemma. either use lexicals and make every component aware of the possibility of breaking lexical scope 18:28:46 oops. sent by accident 18:29:02 now a dilemma. either use lexicals and make every macroexpansion component aware of the possibility of breaking lexical scope or use dynamic scope and get rid of all the problems 18:29:23 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:32:02 what i'm afraid is too many unwind-protects when rebinding specials 18:32:08 since there's no register allocation 18:32:28 what unwind-protect? 18:32:31 Wait, what on earth are you on about? 18:32:36 crod [n=cmell@cb8a54-030.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:32:48 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:49 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-122.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:32:50 heck, what register allocation? 18:32:55 Special-variable binding doesn't create a UWP block. 18:33:14 nyef, it does create some epilogue, though? 18:33:25 excuse me. i'm sleep-deprived again 18:33:36 but at least my clos code seems to make sense 18:33:40 Yeah, but not one that's run as part of stack unwinding for non-local exits. 18:34:25 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:35:59 what's better? rebind specials like there's no tomorrow, especially to the same values, or keep the continuation in a LABELS-form like, (if (special-same) (k) (let ((#:some-special new-value)) (k)))? 18:36:44 but that's my being obsessed with lowlevel details which truly don't matter 18:36:46 My belief is that special-binding is cheap. 18:36:54 thanks 18:37:02 If it actually bothers you, DISASSEMBLE is your friend, as is the profiler. 18:38:22 so there's a CLOS scheme with components taking different parts in macroexpansion and declaring dependencies amongst themselves 18:44:06 -!- user____ [n=user@p54926466.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:44:20 -!- user_ [n=user@p54926466.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:45:04 mega1 [n=mega@53d823fb.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:46:10 nyef: re OPTIMIZATION #29, do you have any additional idea? 18:49:06 Well, there are two approaches that I can see. The one recommended by the text of #29 is to inhibit the conversion in certain cases and compile those cases efficiently. 18:49:30 The other one is to -detect- the resulting constructs that can be efficiently compiled. 18:49:33 nyef: we could backpatch IR2, but we risk some code motion. 18:49:39 danlentz [n=dan@c-68-46-6-17.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:58 There is that, yes. 18:50:10 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 18:50:17 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:52:26 compilation-time-wise, I'm not sure which is better, between doing more stuff as source-transforms and then undoing it later and doing more work as transforms. 18:52:51 -!- danlentz [n=dan@c-68-46-6-17.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:52:59 The advantage to picking it up at IR2 is the possibility of catching more cases than would be caught with the specific IR1 stuff. 18:53:48 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178027156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:53:54 mulligan [n=user@e178027156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:13 rtra_ [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 18:54:59 Hurray, I just pushed another test over whatever threshold makes Stefil kill SBCL's heap. 18:55:04 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:56:21 -!- rtra_ is now known as rtra 18:59:42 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B631A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:04:00 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:29 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@host81-141-39-58.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:04:47 mjf [n=mjf@r6y144.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:06:07 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:07:16 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:18 ironChicken [n=richard@host81-141-39-58.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 19:11:06 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 19:15:42 caliostro [n=chatzill@78.14.9.218] has joined #lisp 19:15:49 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:17:39 rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:39 I don't think the release builds on darwin/x86. 19:18:36 Hrm... I've got my i486 CPU manual open, and an x86 linux , and I'm thinking that the reason why SBCL doesn't support dealing with register floatyness in the debugger on x86 might have to do with the storage format of the registers in the machine context. 19:20:29 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-16-47.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:35 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:43 -!- magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:58 magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has joined #lisp 19:22:25 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d823fb.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:25:07 I -think- I can make this happen... maybe. 19:25:11 -!- brianj_otter [n=brianj@wsip-24-234-224-152.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [] 19:26:26 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:27:03 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:29:08 -!- caliostro [n=chatzill@78.14.9.218] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:36:06 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.226.151] has quit ["<@hex> DON'T LET THE TERRORISTS WIN! CHECK FOR ALASKA EVERY TIME YOU GO OUT."] 19:37:02 vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:41:29 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:41:38 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@host81-141-39-58.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:41:52 TimoT [n=ttossava@cs167168.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:42:13 ironChicken [n=richard@host81-141-39-58.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:46 Guest92921 [n=a@5ad4f73e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:37 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-067-250-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:34 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 19:50:25 -!- TimoT [n=ttossava@cs167168.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:53:30 ReiniUrban [n=chatzill@212-183-54-127.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:53:45 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-153-129.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:49 -!- magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:53:52 magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has joined #lisp 19:54:26 any of you familiar with regexp:regexp-split and able to help me? 19:54:55 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 19:55:09 Guest92921: is this common lisp? 19:55:16 Guest92921: I think people here are more familiar with CL-PPCRE. 19:55:23 which library provides 'regexp'? 19:55:45 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 19:56:00 (setf explode (regexp:regexp-split "\\s" line)) 19:56:12 is where I'm at atm 19:56:36 clisp I what I use to run it 19:57:03 oh! clisp has its own regexp library; never knew that 19:57:26 -!- inertia- [n=inertia@unaffiliated/inertia-] has left #lisp 19:58:18 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:59:07 someone else has just suggested (print (nth 0 explode)) which seems to work 19:59:08 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:30 what are you trying to do, exactly? 20:00:11 print the first part of the string that's been seperated by a space 20:00:18 line being the string 20:02:46 Bzoto [n=pradella@94.36.128.229] has joined #lisp 20:02:47 more used to php stuff liek $explode = explode("\s", $line); echo $explode[0]; 20:03:30 \leave 20:04:30 -!- Bzoto [n=pradella@94.36.128.229] has quit [Client Quit] 20:04:51 Guest92921: if that's all you're doing, split-sequence may be better 20:05:05 (Same effect, but portable, and presumably more efficient) 20:05:09 aye 20:05:21 (split-sequence "\\s" line) ? 20:05:22 and if you do need regexps, cl-ppcre might be better; it's portable 20:05:31 Guest92921: it's the same thing, except that regexp-split returns a list instead of an array. 20:05:35 I think that's what I'm using 20:05:40 ah kk 20:06:22 (let ((string "aaa bbb ccc")) (print (subseq string 0 (position #\Space string)))) ? 20:08:03 something else I wondered about 20:08:17 what does -> # <- mean 20:08:21 not like `# 20:08:23 ? 20:08:29 clhs #\ 20:08:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dha.htm 20:08:33 k 20:08:58 # means nothing 20:09:46 nothing? 20:10:24 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-49-70.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:10:28 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@host81-141-39-58.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:10:42 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:10:52 ironChicken [n=richard@host81-141-39-58.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:55 nothing as in null or nothing as in stipped over by the parser? 20:11:01 skipped 20:11:10 Guest53748: it's a dispatch macro character 20:11:20 nothing as in "it doesn't mean anything" 20:12:12 disagree .. it has meaning, just not by itself. 20:12:13 it is only meaningful with some other character, "\" in that case 20:12:22 kk 20:14:14 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:14:50 what would be the closest thing in lisp to a switch statement? 20:15:03 case 20:15:21 dysinger [n=tim@c-71-59-151-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:32 Guest53748: only, there are _no_ statements in lisp. 20:15:38 CASE is an expression 20:15:51 but you understand want I ment? 20:16:00 But still.. closest thing to a switch statement ;) 20:16:05 kk 20:16:19 Guest92921: enough to see that you should read a book instead of asking such questions here. 20:16:31 though if you're coming from a php background, bear in mind that case uses 'eql' as a test, not 'equal', so will not work for sting comparisons 20:16:35 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:16:37 minion: tell Guest53748 about pcl 20:16:39 Guest53748: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 20:16:56 oh wait .. php? 20:16:58 eql is something like == , and equal is === 20:17:05 Guest92921: nope 20:17:16 minion: tell Guest53748 about touretzky 20:17:17 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``touretzky''. 20:17:21 sp? 20:17:25 == is php's weird weak-typing compare-anything-to-anything thing 20:17:31 minion: tell Guest53748 about gentle 20:17:31 Guest53748: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 20:17:33 drewc: gentle 20:17:56 *drewc* nods to adeht 20:18:47 give me a day or two to read it 20:19:18 Guest92921: please, take your time! 20:19:21 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@host81-141-39-58.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:20:03 *rsynnott* is pretty certain that ""==0 at least USED to be true :) 20:20:32 yep, still is 20:20:48 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:53 -!- magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:06 magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has joined #lisp 20:21:32 is it too early for today's "lisp whine-fest waa waa waa" blog post? this one is a killer! 20:22:02 yes 20:22:03 oh, not another one! 20:22:10 go on, then 20:23:19 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y144.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:23:25 specially the anon post at 1:31 PM; https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=19550706&postID=113368193930148824 20:24:44 hmm, that whole blog is just touchy link-bait comparisons 20:25:42 i think what people mean by "community" is more like a cookie-cutter framework for cut-and-paste programmers. great majority of lisp libraries assume you know what you're supposed to do. versus python/ruby stuff, where, say, if you google for a MIME parser the libmime equivalent has a tutorial on SMTP! 20:25:44 or some such 20:26:03 argh, where does this AI thing come from? 20:26:28 out of thin air. 20:26:29 *rsynnott* is in a very bad mood due to idiot neighbor's car alarm going off, as is traditional when I'm trying to get work done at home 20:27:38 "I am sure you can think of some women ( and men if you are gay/women ) who fit into the similar catogory." - wtf? 20:27:46 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-067-250-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:27:52 strangest programming language comparison EVER 20:27:54 fusss: I find it to be a sad post 20:27:58 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-201-40-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:28:48 (and unfair on lesbian programmers, of course) 20:29:09 I have been welcomed here together with my many many stupid questions. Rather sad that something so beautiful must fail because people think it is elitist (that part might be right, people do think lisp is only for some elite group of coders) 20:29:13 rsynnott: just some brute's idea of sensitivity 20:29:25 rsynnott: like, real, you know, 'fe'males? 20:29:42 so apparently, the problem is that emacs has the wrong keybindings 20:29:57 M-P - imagine! Absurd! 20:29:59 *p 20:30:05 madnificent: fail? you're not reading it right. someone claimed there was "no open source lisp" in that thread. the clue bar is hanging low there. 20:30:45 goodness, these comments are terribly uninformed 20:31:11 fusss: well, the elitist part is shown in the post of 1:31 PM, but it made me realise that people really do think lisp is only for elitists 20:31:27 "majority of the world still runs Windows. Perl/Python/Ruby have all realized this and their languages generally run just as well on either platform." - Ah, the voice of someone who has never used any of these languages on Windows 20:31:34 tbh, the dude who wrote . http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ has shot you in the foot where he says something like he's chosen to write pushnew instead 20:31:47 'elitists' meaning what, exactly? People who get scared by anything not involving copy and paste? 20:32:29 rsynnott: including lisp 20:32:33 *don't get scared 20:32:41 rsynnott: they just think that lisp is very very very hard... 20:32:43 i got into lisp because people i respected and looked up to where lispers. surely, they know something i don't. I didn't expect it to be a cake walk, but it was :-) 20:33:00 rsynnott: I can't tell you why, I'm the one trying to convince them to learn it ;) 20:33:04 (the word 'elitist' has been so tainted by the recent election as to be unusable, anyway) 20:33:17 LoL 20:33:26 rsynnott: you should read In Defense of Elitism 20:34:04 I got into lisp because my first professor once told me about it. He did claim it was extremely slow though. just this year I finally had another class of him, never got to thank him for it though 20:34:06 (university lecturer who wants to help disadvantaged people - elitist. Man who owns millions worth of houses and wants to give tax breaks to the super-rich - not elitist) 20:34:47 "I have to agree with the assertion that the lack of a complete open source Lisp is what is hurting it in terms of popularity." - This is obviously just willful perversity 20:35:05 rsynnott: those who control the language control the argument :-) 20:35:30 wow, a flame. need to read back 20:35:32 borism [n=boris@195-50-201-40-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 20:35:32 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk18.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:36:07 perhaps that song 'god wrote in lisp code' would be appropriate to throw in there :P 20:36:24 -!- magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:36:41 "You shouldn't need to type Alt-P to repeat the last line in the REPL, Modern keyboards have Arrow Keys, Use them!" I laughed here. 20:37:01 arrow keys?! blasphemy! 20:37:12 yeah, how would you move the cursor up? =D 20:37:37 "A petty, cheap ass mindset, (cheap ass in the sense that they don't want to share their "wisdom" with the world at large, but only with people who they think are at least as smart as them. This is mainly a "male" phenomenon (at least in Humans)" - erm, hold on. Who are these non-human lisp users? What? 20:37:46 robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:38:08 schme: how does he intend to move the caret? 20:38:28 fusss: details! 20:38:28 hefner: dammit, you said first 20:39:07 mmm carrot... 20:39:24 Mmm... Carrot juice... 20:39:36 Oh sorry guys, but "THERE IS NO GOOD OPEN SOURCE IMPLEMENTATION OF LISP". 20:39:40 freshly squeezed text editor? 20:40:04 i got into lisp by seeing a still-frame in Serial Experiments Lain 20:40:06 schme, maybe not in 72 when that text was typed on an upcase-only terminal, but ... 20:40:11 these series is Word of God 20:40:28 schme: I could actually believe that last. SBCL has its flaws, after all... 20:40:32 funny, I say there's no good open source implementation of python 20:40:57 (but I'm about as informed on that subject as these guys are on lisp) 20:41:04 what's the big deal with bashing elitism? 20:41:05 this, mind you, seemingly coming from a ruby programmer 20:41:14 are you all drinking us media spin doctored kool-aid? 20:41:17 s/us/USA/ 20:41:19 and there certainly is NOT a good implementation of ruby 20:41:20 python, ruby, whatever 20:41:22 hefner, I thought we /were/ using Python! 20:41:43 weirdo: the word 'elitism' has aquired a special meaning in the US 20:42:03 python is a great lisp compiler, imo 20:42:03 that's the propagandist media thing 20:42:13 quite WHAT that might be, I don't know, of course :) 20:42:20 oh . I got to the petty cheap ass mindset. 20:42:23 My god. 20:42:26 they want to bash elitism so their spin doctoring part is easier 20:43:14 *fusss* is glad to have relieved c-l.net svn servers of the heavy load of code being checked in 20:43:33 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:43:51 Guest92921, you could implement a switch "statement" as an exercise 20:44:24 I still think that people yell elitism the second you whack 'em with a RTFM. 20:44:37 how do yoiu mean/ 20:44:44 Some people do. They tend to be elitist. 20:44:50 maybe it means "those nasty people who actually THINK about things" 20:45:19 (y'know, in the rest of the world, it still more or less refers to economic privilege) 20:45:22 maybe it's PC for "let the hicks understand" 20:45:26 schme: sure, those who can read are elitists 20:45:35 they're watching Fox News, after all 20:45:53 Then what about those that can speak in complete sentences, nay paragraphs? 20:46:07 paragraphs on irc? 20:46:28 wgl: those are considered completely unelectable, and put in the naughty corner with Nader and Chomsky :) 20:46:30 Guest92921: It happens. Typically broken up a touch by the line-length limit. 20:46:41 wonder if ERC can split on PRIVMSG length 20:46:56 fwiw, irssi could do it for, like, ages 20:46:59 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:01 not by the flood limit? 20:47:11 penalty points are irrelevant 20:47:33 but i'm an ircnet ircd geek :( 20:47:48 -!- _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:48:04 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:48:18 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:48:36 rsynnott: are you referring to Eire politics? 20:48:50 nope, to my view of US politics 20:49:07 we don't use the word 'elitism' in a similar manner here 20:49:30 it's still very much an economic thing, not 'that person can read; burn him' 20:49:35 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:49 heard the variations of "... but that's elitist thinking" 20:49:53 (and it's Ireland, btw ;) ) 20:49:58 inforichland [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:01 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:50:11 it was Eire for a few years in the 30s 20:50:32 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@70-56-3-29.desm.qwest.net] has left #lisp 20:50:41 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Client Quit] 20:50:55 rsynnott: i'm sure the is a political side that begs to differ ;-) 20:51:08 there 20:51:19 -!- inforichland [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:51:30 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 20:51:39 inforichland [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:46 not a significant one; the Republic of Ireland (that part not including Northern Ireland) is referred to as Ireland by most people 20:51:48 magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has joined #lisp 20:51:54 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D0D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:51:56 (and that is its official name, IIRC) 20:52:00 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:52:36 back 20:52:41 a smally number of nationalists take offence to that, because it doesn't include NI, but they really are marginal 20:52:55 what was the affectionate name for it? you guys have an endonym i can't recall 20:52:56 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 20:53:04 each rover is at 20:53:04 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:53:04 Is there anyone but me who is crazy enough to switch back and forth between SLIME and ELI? 20:53:11 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 20:53:21 rpg: why do you do that? 20:53:24 rpg: the franz thing? 20:53:34 fusss: Yes. 20:53:36 -!- Guest92921 [n=a@5ad4f73e.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 20:53:44 makes sense if you're using allegro, I suppose.. 20:53:53 I assume it interfaces better than slime does? 20:54:02 rsynnott: I use allegro as well as SBCL, I know eli really well, and have heavily customized it. 20:54:52 I was just asking because I have been sporadically trying, with little success, to come up with a .emacs that would let me choose which (ELI or SLIME) to use at any given time. 20:54:53 ... argh. SBCL doesn't build on darwin/x86 here, and fails some core-related tests on darwin/x86-64. 20:55:31 sort on subtypep <3 20:55:55 fusss: Republic of Ireland if you must; calling it Eire is like talking about deutschland when you mean Germany, in English :) ) 20:56:04 oh 20:56:53 weirdo: it only defines a partial order. You probably want a toposort to have san-ish results even when subtypep returns NIL, NIL. 20:57:12 rsynnott: I was hopping for a name that would offend brits the most ;-) 20:57:37 pkhuong, i have a list of class names and i need to ensure that subclasses run first 20:57:37 -!- inforichland [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:57:47 Am I correct in thinking that slime-setup must now have 'slime-repl in it? 20:57:55 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:58:05 why on earth do you want to do that? Outside of Northern Ireland, no-one really cares that much about doing that these days, surely? 20:58:34 rsynnott: i lived in boston. nuff said. brb. :-P 20:58:47 The repository for parenscript is offline? 20:58:47 rpg: if you want repl 20:58:54 (actually, about the only time you'll see 'Eire' in English is a few UK companies who still call it that to avoid offending extremists in NI) 20:59:16 ah, yep, the 'Irish-Americans'; far more Irish than the Irish ;) 20:59:23 Or in certain genres of fiction. 20:59:28 I'm really confused that readline shortcuts don't work in emacs :/ 20:59:35 Or in crossword puzzles. 20:59:55 I thought readline implemented the emacs keybindings? 21:00:21 but not vice-versa 21:00:31 oh cool 21:00:37 and the winner is.. rsynnott! :) 21:01:04 uh...so what is the emacs version of ^u? 21:01:22 ah let me rephrase that..Where do I find a list? 21:01:29 fusss: call it 'Erin' :) 21:01:45 cYmen: #lisp is a good place to find lists ;) 21:02:10 cYmen: If you want the keybindings list I think it is C-h b 21:02:10 well, that's just weird 21:02:24 cYmen: a better question might be to tell us what C-u does and ask how to do that :) 21:02:43 drewc: Deletes to the beginning of the line. 21:03:10 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:15 But I guess I better adopt the emacs versions then. Shortcuts really would make my life easier and be a lot of fun...if only they wouldn't change all the time... :) 21:03:17 cYmen: no idea ... i just C-SPC, C-a, C-w 21:03:26 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:04:00 *drewc* never bothered to learn most of the emacs keybindings 21:04:16 my new years resolution was to learn some more :) 21:04:16 cYmen: M-x backward-kill-line RET 21:04:21 cYmen: I suppose. 21:05:36 cYmen: So maybe (global-set-key "\C-u" 'backward-kill-line) 21:06:01 Geh! The very -idea- of messing with C-u scares me. 21:06:04 schme: and how will you use prefix arguments? 21:06:15 pkhuong: M-0 through M-9, perhaps? 21:06:25 pkhuong: Well by mapping it to something else of course. 21:06:25 What's a prefix argument? :) 21:06:31 H-u or something. 21:06:32 schme, about funny comments: "I've been learning languages, IDEs and apps for 16 years, and my rule of thumb is that I should be able to be productive within a week. Emacs wasn't even close to that" . Now, while I agree with him on the Emacs part ;), one wonders about his background.. 21:06:54 tic_: Is that the guy who says some software mindfoo x5 has a better interface? 21:07:03 schme, yeah! 21:07:05 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:07:08 tic_: 'cause I googled that mindfoo x5 up and it's a mindmapping software. 21:07:22 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:07:29 yuck! i just drank half a glass of day-old red wine that was sitting out and looked like my coffee 21:07:40 what an unpleasant surprise. 21:07:42 schme, trees and graphs -- he has a hidden longing for wine! 21:07:52 err, Lisp. *short circuit* 21:08:04 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:08:10 I'm not sure how one compares mindmapping software to programming environments.. and clearly if it takes a week to learn how to draw mind maps on the screen, one should not be programming or saying anything about programming environments ;) 21:08:46 cYmen: universal argument is for suppling numbers to commands. 21:08:48 look guys ... if the only problem people have with CL is emacs .. .we're winning non? 21:09:03 Agreed :) 21:09:22 5 years ago the complaints were more about lack of libraries. 21:09:31 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:09:32 schme: far to advanced for me..but I will refrain from remapping ^u to avoid future confusion 21:09:40 now i complain that other langs don't have Edi. 21:09:41 drewc, indeed, now that I'm making progress with my Swank discussion from Vim! ;) 21:09:44 cYmen: Yeees.. C-u is not the best to remap ;) 21:09:55 My main complaint right now is the lack of a release culture. 21:09:59 cYmen: C-u 4 C-p moves ya upwards 4 lines. 21:10:00 drewc, ./configure --with-edi ? 21:10:01 nyef: mine as well. 21:10:15 And even Ediware isn't wonderful here -- how do you get old versions? 21:10:30 edi? edi weitz? 21:10:38 nyef: the clbuild darcs archives of ediware might help there. 21:10:54 cYmen: T 21:10:57 I think that just makes my point. 21:11:07 jajcloz_ [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 i think you're right actually 21:11:18 Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 21:11:31 clbuild and such only cater to this lack of a culture. 21:11:35 nyef: It all comes back to doing a distribution really. 21:11:50 maybe i'll be able to find the time to do that this year 21:11:50 But we can't: There's no released software to base a distro on. 21:12:06 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-153-129.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:12:17 I think you guys are right actually 21:12:25 I thought about trying to use only released software, and quickly realized that I couldn't. 21:12:34 CLX is unmaintained. 21:12:37 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:12:38 SLIME isn't released. 21:12:59 That's no GUI and no editor integration, right off the bat. 21:12:59 so .. we release them 21:13:17 Yeah, that's one of three solutions. 21:13:18 1.0-drewc-1 versions 21:13:20 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:28 and offer to support them 21:13:36 (for tech.coop members only :P) 21:13:40 Heh. 21:14:00 nyef: the other 2? 21:14:21 force maintainers to release .. or use ruby. 21:14:28 hahahha 21:14:32 Actually, there are four scenarios that I saw. 21:14:41 First, join the project to do their release engineering for them. 21:14:46 Second, fork. 21:15:06 Third, start a competing project from scratch. 21:15:25 Ohh, #3! I like that one. 21:15:41 Fourth, bring social pressure to bear (we won't add your project to our distro unless you start doing things our way). 21:15:54 nyef: the latter is ultimately the winner 21:15:54 nyef: what do you mean, "clx is unmaintained"? 21:16:03 Krystof: When was the last release? 21:16:11 is not the same thing 21:16:19 Five: retain the services of a burglar and steal and the non-win32 boxes of sbcl maintainers to force them to hack on threading for win32. srsly. 21:16:25 fusss: no 21:16:37 fusss: What? Hell no. 21:16:41 fusss: i'd rather have them fix threading on platforms i use first 21:17:05 Seriously, I -did- that work. I made threading happen on SBCL/Win32. 21:17:10 And -nobody- cared. 21:17:34 fusss: now look what you've done! it was jsut a dirty fork. 21:17:36 nyef: I could honestly care less about threading on win32, but good work there :) 21:17:39 nyef: where is it? 21:17:57 fusss: Somewhere in my archives, from a year and a half ago or more. 21:17:57 When did `I could care less' come to mean `I couldn't care less'? Just curious. 21:18:00 couldn't 21:18:05 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has joined #lisp 21:18:11 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 21:18:18 Riastradh: At 10 pm in the middle of the night :) 21:18:37 schme: as opposed to 10pm in the morning? :P 21:19:05 Riastradh: It is some swedish expressions here messing up the english ones. You will just have to adapt to the new way :) 21:19:22 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-b67ae81a270bd5c6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:19:29 It does make me happy to see work getting done though :) 21:19:42 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-46da48c496fa88db] has joined #lisp 21:19:52 drewc: 10pm in the middle of the day sure. But 10 pm is very late so one's brain works a bit slow etc. 21:20:00 eh 10 am 21:20:04 nyef: do you know the specific sub directory? the /projects page doesn't list it. 21:20:05 Well you see. 21:20:24 caliostro [n=chatzill@host-84-222-128-70.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:20:28 didn't we also just have a google SoC for win32 sbcl? 21:20:30 Swedes?! 21:20:41 Mar 24, 2007 is the date on my patch. 21:20:54 schme: Oddly enough, "I could care less" IS acceptably synonymous with "I couldn't care less" in US English. 21:20:58 drewc: i have WAY too many things hinging on sbcl threading for win32. my bordeaux-threads port of sbcl-win32, for example :-P 21:21:03 http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/wthread-combined-1a.diff 21:21:16 Against 1.0.3.47. 21:21:36 rpg: Oh I see.. In swedish I use it as short for "I could care less... but it'd be really hard 'cause I really care just about not at all, but maybe if I concentrate real hard... nah not working, sorry" :) 21:21:42 Enough changed between then and the SoC project that the patch rotted too much to make it easy to resurrect. 21:21:52 but I'll stop my OT ramblings for now :) 21:21:59 schme: It is a mystery to native American speakers why this is the case. 21:22:27 :( 21:22:42 It's also just silly-looking, rpg. 21:22:48 Krystof: AFAICT, HEAD is broken (won't build) on darwin/x86. 21:23:24 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:24:07 fusss: i don't quite understand why you'd want to have anything hinging on sbcl threading for win32.... that's like betting the farm on antialiased fonts in emacs.... 21:24:10 Riastradh: \forall x \in natural languages \forall y \in persons \exists z construct-of(x,z) and silly-looking-to(y, z) 21:24:12 sure it hits cvs something .... 21:24:17 sometimes rather 21:25:23 Honestly, if you want SBCL/Win32 threading, you have three options: Do it yourself, pay someone to do it, or wait until someone else does one of the first two. 21:25:49 pkhuong: HEAD of what? CLX? 21:25:52 drewc: hunchentoot:start-server is a one-way street without threads. on win32 it just friken never returns. 21:25:53 *rpg* is loving tcr's slime presentation 21:25:58 actually, tell me by e-mail, because my boiler is broken 21:26:07 Krystof: sorry, SBCL, again :\ 21:26:54 right now i run hunchentoot on a trial-ware lisp 21:27:06 fusss: why, pray tell, would you want to run a web server on a windows machine? 21:27:14 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:27:30 For the superior development tools ;) 21:27:42 drewc: Q&D hacking mostly. all my deployment servers are linux. 21:27:59 fusss: use colinux and fuxk it. 21:28:23 it was good enough for nyef .. who wrote the win32 port under colinux iirc .. it's good enough for you. :) 21:28:48 Only partly under coLinux. I actually started with an ssh session plus sftp to a linux box. 21:29:00 i have Xming for remote X 21:29:27 nothing like having xfce with an XP taskbar :-) 21:30:07 i think I will go the "do it yourself" route, with respect to the burglary 21:31:17 fusss: colinux, or vmware 21:31:33 (or ccl is apparently sorta usable on win32 now) 21:31:40 oh, possibly win64 21:34:06 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:34:07 nice. colinux adds up to roughly 500mb. not bad. 21:35:33 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A14B8.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:35:47 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-105-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:54 fusss: when it comes to it, you're a second class citizen developin in windows unless the language is .NET, Java or C++ 21:36:06 you must make these compromises :) 21:36:07 rsynnott: i try to keep a consistent lisp-implementation-type across various boxes. keeps headache to a minimum. 21:36:08 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:36:52 don't you mean "managed" C++? 21:37:16 analogous to "house-broken skunk" 21:37:47 MS tools still do conventional C++, too 21:38:23 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk18.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 21:38:29 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk18.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 21:38:34 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:12 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:40:48 hell yeah! forgot about the usb bootable slax! i'm gonna install sbcl on my pen-testing usb :-) 21:41:50 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-251-219.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:44:19 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:46:35 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 21:47:29 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-241-87-35.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:49:07 benny [n=benny@i577A14B8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:52:36 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-251-219.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:10 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:59 -!- magnus__ [n=magnus@83.209.81.249] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:01:12 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has quit [] 22:01:27 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:03:59 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-105-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:19 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:04:47 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:06:11 -!- pstickne is now known as pst[away 22:06:30 can anyone point me to a Common Lisp Music tutorial? all the links I follow are "Object not found" or "Forbidden" 22:07:00 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 22:09:03 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:06 grabbing SLIME from CVS for the first time, where's a good place to save it? 22:09:50 kzar: ~/.emacs.d/slime for instance 22:11:10 luis: where would you put it for a site wide install do you think? 22:11:19 egn: see if the wayback machine has it 22:12:25 kzar: I wouldn't install it globally 22:12:53 kzar: not sure. /usr/[local/]share/emacs/site-lisp? /opt? Or what tcr says. 22:12:59 bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:21 Is it a true multi-user machine, and you want to make it available for all users? 22:13:31 egn: Snd/CLM is the next version of the project, and it's online. 22:13:49 tcr: no not really, I'll just shove it in /usr/src/slime for now I guess 22:14:20 -!- ferada [n=ferada@e179238077.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["leaving"] 22:14:26 fusss: ah, thanks 22:14:36 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:15:14 egn: various music applications are available for common lisp 22:15:35 egn: see here http://www.cliki.net/Music 22:15:49 *drewc* talks to LinuxSampler from lisp 22:16:01 loads of fun 22:16:29 let's face it, far too much music tools. even more than unit-testing frameworks and html-generation macros. 22:17:07 haha 22:17:10 lispers like to make web pages about testing music applications .. what's wrong with that? :) 22:17:17 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:17:20 Where's H4ns... 22:17:41 fusss: how many unit testing frameworks or html-generation tools does one really need? 22:17:50 drewc: how so? 22:18:04 how do you talk to LinuxSampler** 22:18:13 egn: over a sockey 22:18:17 socket 22:18:31 is that built in? or did you have edit LinuxSampler code? 22:18:37 have to 22:18:48 Hmm does the slime repl not start up automatically when you slime-connect with the CVS version? 22:18:48 it's how it works 22:18:50 rsynnott: one of each, for testing the website of each music tool. 22:18:53 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:19:20 linuxsampler has no interface .. it's just a daemon 22:19:28 oh 22:19:31 gottcha 22:19:32 kzar: Use the slime-fancy contrib. 22:19:46 wait, that's pretty awesome 22:19:47 kzar: M-x slime and it should start savaging your repl buffer immediately, ending with an animated climax taunting you to "hack more!", a la minion. 22:20:05 egn: indeed it is 22:20:08 fusss: not anymore 22:20:15 stassats`: WHAT!? 22:20:27 you have to slime-connect manually? 22:20:32 fusss: I want to slime-connect so that I can connect to the running process. It says it's connected OK but then no repl 22:20:33 fusss: you need to load repl contrib 22:20:36 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-241-87-35.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:20:47 NegroPoo [i=NegroPoo@ip72-207-20-159.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:50 how do I do that? 22:20:51 The innigggeration of Barack Hussein Obongo is nigh! Itis time for all humans (whites, asians, jews, non-negroid Hispanics, andIndians) to circle their wagons and fight off the negro onslaught. Join us at Chimpout and join our forum. http://www.chimpout.com/forum/index.php 22:20:59 fricking sadistic slime developers! 22:21:12 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 22:21:19 my god 22:21:25 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has been kicked from #lisp 22:21:32 kzar: Use the slime-fancy contrib. 22:21:37 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:21:38 ha .. our banlist is full 22:21:43 tcr: how? I'm not sure what it is 22:21:46 kzar: you can read about how to activate contribs in contrib/README 22:21:55 tcr: thanks 22:22:00 kzar: in short, place (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) in your .emacs 22:22:04 i wonder if we should start unbanning gavino's various aliases then .. :P 22:22:11 who thought slime was too convenient to merit this overhaul? 22:22:11 drewc: can you add me to the slime group so I can start my campaign to load slime-repl by default? :) 22:22:19 drewc: quick 22:23:11 hostile takeover? I do hold the keys to the vault after all :) 22:23:18 luis: Do you happen to know how I can make the main page of my blog be wider? 22:23:23 drewc: no, not at all. 22:23:32 -!- dysinger [n=tim@c-71-59-151-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:23:37 well that's no fun 22:23:43 drewc: heller sent the request 22:23:57 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 22:24:15 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 22:24:34 -!- angel_ [n=antani@host74-228-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:24:44 planning a coup? 22:24:47 tcr: thanks that fixed it, I get a error about ARGLIST though, I do something wrong or? 22:25:16 rsynnott: no, just following through with my proposal on slime-devel 22:25:16 *fusss* considers freezing his copy of slime. *precious* 22:25:54 kzar: Could you paste that error, please? 22:26:20 (room) tells me I use 350MB for simple-array-signed-byte-30 objects. How could I find out where those come from? 22:26:40 cYmen: are you using cl-ppcre at all? 22:26:49 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@adsl-69-153-199-137.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:01 rsynnott: all over the place 22:27:14 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:27:44 tcr: change the width prop in #main-wrapper? 22:28:06 setting *USE-BMH-MATCHERS* to nil may reduce memory footprint 22:28:11 tcr: #outer-wrapper as well, perhaps 22:28:28 (thouh the problem may not be cl-ppcre; it's just that it is inclined to grab a lot of memory) 22:28:33 luis: "The user `loliveira' is already a member of `slime'." 22:28:44 looks like h4ns got to it first :) 22:28:48 kzar pasted "ARGLIST error with SLIME" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72977 22:29:00 drewc: oh, cool, thanks. 22:29:35 tcr: so, do you think tagging is enough or should we do actual releases? 22:29:42 cYmen: did you compile your regexps? 22:30:15 drewc: didn't even know that's possible 22:30:32 drewc: I believe cl-ppcre will so so anyway (at least above a certain optimisation level, where they're available at compilation time) 22:31:05 rsynnott: oh? i have always done it manually... so what do i know :) 22:31:52 drewc: there's a compiler-macro to compile constant patterns only once. 22:31:55 kzar: I'll take a look. 22:32:08 tcr: cheers 22:32:11 drewc: I asked the same last time this came up, and was told by a reliable source that it'd do it by itself 22:32:14 -!- pst[away [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:32:15 Can I somehow tell cl-ppcre to free the memory again? :) 22:32:50 luis: Releases should be done and involve tagging. I.e. you shouldn't upload tarballs, but release announcements (incl. updating the website) should be performed. 22:32:58 rme_ [n=rme@pool-70-104-125-14.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:10 +1 tcr! 22:33:12 I don't even understand why it eats all that memory at all... 22:33:14 if it IS doing it on the fly, GC should get it, I would think 22:33:18 tcr: releases without tarballs? 22:33:31 gc doesn't help 22:33:38 luis: Users should get from CVS so they can easily update to HEAD. 22:34:02 cYmen: do you have a regexp in a loop somewhere? 22:34:10 oh wait .. compiler macros would take care of that .. 22:34:10 tcr: what if the tarballs include the CVS metadata? 22:34:14 unless 22:34:15 tcr: you could also make tarballs that contained CVS metadata 22:34:18 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:34:23 :D 22:34:24 luis: A release manager should mosty do the following three things: Do release announcements, care about the website, taking care of NEWS 22:34:28 cYmen: do you use non-constant regexp patterns? 22:34:39 drewc: probably and yes 22:34:40 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:47 I'm using it to parse html... 22:34:49 luis: taking care of NEWS meaning grovelling through ChangeLog before a release and insert the user-visible stuff to NEWS. 22:35:21 cYmen: question : have you profiled at all? 22:35:31 cYmen: wait .. what? 22:35:38 regexp to parse html ... 22:35:41 no no no no 22:35:43 no 22:35:49 (did i say no? :)) 22:35:51 luis: If that works smoothly I don't have a problem with that. 22:35:59 I expected no less 22:36:01 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:09 no less nos I mean :) 22:36:14 http://common-lisp.net/project/closure/closure-html/ 22:36:16 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:36:37 well I'm a clueless... 22:36:46 and no I haven't profiled 22:36:50 how do I do that? :) 22:36:59 "so you have a problem that you want to use regexps to solve .. now you have 2 problems" 22:37:08 tcr: it'd probably work better if patches included changes to NEWS, like in SBCL 22:37:15 M-x slime-profile-package should be enough 22:37:32 if not, read your implementation's manual. 22:37:51 cYmen: profiling will quickly tell you where the RAM is going. 22:38:27 but .. if you have non-constant regexps .. in a loop... you're probably going to want to compile the scanner outside the loop. 22:38:27 drewc: Yeah, I new that one, too. I'm not really parsing the html I'm just searching for occurences of this and that...it's not that bad (I think :)) 22:39:05 ironChicken [n=richard@host81-141-39-58.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:20 kzar: I cannot reproduce that. 22:39:24 cYmen: well .. how much time have you wasted because you didn't really need to parse the html and so didn't .. when you could have just parsed it for real and been drinking martinis by now? :) 22:39:28 tcr: who's supposed to be the release manager btw? :-) 22:39:31 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:32 kzar: What do you have in your .emacs? 22:40:01 luis: I thought you'd step up, although I honestly think you've got enough on your plate already. :) 22:40:07 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:40:11 kzar annotated #72977 with ".emacs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72977#1 22:40:17 martinis paid for by the wonderful new customers using your new application! what a great job we have here. 22:40:33 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:36 kzar: Add (add-to-list 'load-path "/usr/src/slime/contrib") 22:40:45 tcr: well, I can do it, but I'll probably need your help. 22:40:46 kzar: (after the first add-to-list) 22:40:54 drewc: The stuff I'm programming is more on the "check site X for new news entries" level of difficulty... 22:41:10 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:12 cYmen: sounds like a job for a real parser. 22:41:18 luis: I think most of this can be automated. I'm not good at this, though. 22:41:29 since coming to CL, i rarely use regexps anymore.. 22:41:32 oh come on :) 22:41:44 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B14C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:46 it's a lot simpler to bang off a recursive descent parser IMO 22:41:48 the websites are massive and confusing 22:41:53 and even if I use a parser 22:42:00 after parsing I still have to search for the stuff I want :) 22:42:06 cYmen: parse it to DOM and use xpath 22:42:14 this is pretty trivial use of HTML ... 22:42:17 kzar annotated #72977 with "Error as it connects" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72977#2 22:42:32 or use SAX, or a lisp equiv .. 22:42:35 drewc: you make it sound like it's easy :) 22:42:46 it behaves the same with that extra line, I just noticed it does that other error when I first connect as well 22:42:46 cYmen: a lot easier than fucking with regexps, tjat' 22:42:46 kzar: You're root?? 22:42:51 that's for sure 22:42:59 tcr: at the moment yea 22:43:19 kzar: try to remove ~/.slime/ 22:43:26 I'm out of this now. 22:43:40 cYmen: after all ... you are writing a parser whether you like it or not .. you're just doing it _wrong_ :) 22:44:13 cYmen: this is from experience of course, i'm not just ass-talking here. 22:44:17 tcr: that fixed it :D thanks 22:44:35 i've done both ways, and found it a lot less work to do it right from the start. 22:45:26 kzar annotated #72977 with "Fix" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72977#3 22:45:35 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@host81-141-39-58.wlms-broadband.com] has left #lisp 22:45:38 (in-case someone googles) 22:45:52 drewc: I don't know...xpath, sax, dom all those new words I have to learn alone :) 22:46:07 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:08 cYmen: you don't need all those though. 22:46:19 cYmen: if you happend to know them already, it's a bonus ... 22:46:26 but really.. you only need lisp 22:47:16 cYmen: what page are you trying to grab the news feeds from? 22:47:27 *drewc* is fixin to prove a point here. 22:47:38 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.72.141] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:47:45 if they're RSS or similar, all you need is an xml parser, probably 22:47:56 oh, HTML inside RSS, of coruse.. 22:48:21 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:48:28 If I tell you what I'm really trying to do I'm only going to get more nos :) 22:48:39 (well deserved of course but I still don't want them) 22:49:56 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has left #lisp 22:50:06 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 22:50:25 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:29 well .. C-w is _not_ the kill-region command in gnome .. is it. 22:50:35 beach [n=user@58.186.166.31] has joined #lisp 22:50:38 Good morning. 22:50:51 drewc: No, it's more likely to be close-window. 22:50:53 Hello beach. 22:50:57 cYmen: have a look at http://common-lisp.net/project/closure/closure-html/examples.html#id54525 22:51:13 cYmen: parses and prints google search results. 22:51:47 wow...pretty neat 22:51:49 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:51:50 and short, too 22:52:26 fwiw, i test closure-html + cxml/sax and it works great for .. well formed websites 22:52:33 drewc: how well does it deal with dodgy websites 22:52:34 ah, yep 22:52:37 tested 22:52:44 rsynnott: it does not-so-bad 22:52:45 *rsynnott* doesn't know of many well-formed websites :) 22:52:48 oh, really? 22:52:50 cool 22:52:57 it's not an xml parser anyway 22:53:00 however ... 22:53:12 it can use cxml backends 22:53:15 a lot of the tools further in the chain do want well formed xml 22:53:54 its native "pt" nodes work just fine, you just have to do your own traversing of the child nodes 22:54:00 it really is a shame that browsers allowed poorly formed HTML, and then XHTML, in the first place 22:54:15 rsynnott: i blame unix 22:54:19 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:54:24 "be liberal in what you accept" 22:54:33 tsk 22:54:40 part of the winning "worse is better" philosophy :-) 22:54:52 FSVO winning 22:54:56 says the same philosophy that spawned C++ metaprogramming :P 22:55:02 Does anyone here run hunchentoot directly on port 80 without Apache in-between? 22:55:12 kzar: I use pound inbetween 22:55:14 or nginx 22:55:19 No, C++ metaprogramming was brought about by letting a standards group get hold of the language. 22:55:31 kzar: i do 22:55:47 fusss: ouch .. don't 22:55:53 kzar: and you as well .. don't 22:55:53 running it standalone is probably more trouble than it's worth; you presumably need to run as root to listen on 80, then relinquish permissions 22:55:55 tcr: yes, but when regressions occur and stuff like that I'll probably need some help 22:56:03 which should be possible, but is unpleasant 22:56:19 rsynnott: Yea that was my problem, how to get it on port 80 as not root 22:56:22 (I run standalone for development, of course, but not on port 80) 22:56:25 drewc: internal server though 22:56:29 it is possible .. but you're into sb-unix and oogly 22:56:35 kzar: best just use something in between unles you've a good reason not to 22:56:47 Ah right so I'm setting up my new server so what would you recomend 22:56:47 luis: You're not supposed to fix those yourself. 22:56:48 setting up a reverse proxy is very easy, anyway 22:56:58 kzar: pound is nice n easy 22:57:06 i used to advocate it over anything 22:57:11 luis: I mean you don't need to 22:57:12 alright I'll give it a go 22:57:12 now, i use modproxy 22:57:26 because hell .. apache has a lot of cool stuff. 22:57:31 kzar: mod_proxy the hell out of it. you will eventually need to virtual host some static files for a sucker anyway; or you will need to use some php shopping cart or blog software ;-) 22:57:32 added advantage of pound is that if you ever need another server to handle the load, you can add it in by changing a couple of lines 22:57:37 *rsynnott* is a bit sick of mod_proxy 22:57:54 tcr: right, but then I'll have to poke someone :) 22:58:01 rsynnott: [Reasons needed] 22:58:05 oh, yep, you shouldn't serve statis files from hunchentoot unless you have good reason 22:58:11 rsynnott: i do actually have pound in front of quid in front of mod_proxy in front of lisp somewhere. 22:58:13 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:58:20 pound is a bit hard to google for because of the name, where can I find it? 22:58:21 *squid* 22:58:24 sorry, I mean a bit sick of apache 22:58:34 I've no special problem with mod_proxy itself 22:58:37 kzar: try 'pound proxy' 22:58:39 oh found it 22:58:49 nginx? 22:58:56 rsynnott: i used to feel the same 22:58:59 drewc: yea sorry, was doing like 'pound hunchentoot' doh 22:59:11 didn't touch apache for years 22:59:14 was so happy 22:59:37 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@adsl-69-153-199-137.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:59:42 I don't like the config files, and I generally don't need all the features 22:59:53 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@adsl-69-153-199-137.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:39 drewc: what changed your mind? 23:00:52 rsynnott: i wrote my apache configs several years ago. been copying and pasting from one client server to another ;-) 23:01:12 yep, I used to do that too 23:01:17 rsynnott: well ... running a webhosting service for one... i've come to appreciate it a lot more. 23:01:22 (actually, I still have one apache (php-based) thing 23:01:35 drewc: ah, yep, different situation, I suppose :) 23:01:45 rsynnott: and working out of the box with most stats programs, mrtg etc... 23:01:47 luis: thanks, frobbing the #foo-wrapper values worked. 23:01:50 the hunchentoot site shows a part of an interview with John Witchel that states that static file performance isn't too bad... 23:01:51 these are nice things as well. 23:02:06 I couldn't really be bothered shifting that one to php-fastcgi, and am planning to rewrite from scratch when I get a chance anyway 23:02:14 madnificent: nah, these days it's pretty good 23:02:26 but it involves creation of additional threads 23:02:27 FSVO good :) 23:02:37 lisp i/o is a problem in general. 23:02:38 (that is, more threads at the same time for a given number of users) 23:02:41 which you don't want 23:02:54 sounds fair 23:03:27 and it's fairly trivial to setup something else to serve the static files, anyway 23:03:28 drewc: what's your take on allegroserve? 23:04:10 fusss: on allegro == kick ass. off allegro == shitpile. 23:04:25 drewc: heh :-P 23:04:30 unless some serious work has been put into acl-compat in the last few years 23:04:55 rsynnott: that's true. I'm building (yet another) web framework, so I was kind of wondering if I'd have to solve that immediately. Luckily, it's back to the happy life again :) 23:05:18 I don't think serving static files should really be part of a web framework's job 23:05:28 agreed 23:05:50 except maybe inserting correct urls for said files into generated HTML, and so on 23:05:50 rsynnott: if it would've been a problem, I would've tried to hand something that would easen the pain... (even if it were just docs) 23:06:32 rsynnott: in UCW we found it was nice to be able to include static file handlers by default .. if only for the demo. 23:06:45 (static-page "path" (html blablaebla)) could be some help a user could use... 23:06:47 though of course if you were writing a simple standalone webapp in lisp that people were expected t just pop on their servers and run, static file handling would be nice 23:06:48 that said .. i would not deliver that way 23:06:56 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 23:07:02 madnificent: are you focusing on UI by any chance? 23:07:09 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5c0d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:07:10 in fact .. i develop under an entirely different stack from the one i deploy on. 23:07:39 that sounds irritating 23:07:47 -!- rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [] 23:07:54 That must have some interesting effects right around deployment time... 23:08:06 fusss: I'm currently building the frontend. I'm mainly trying to make it as straight-forward as possible to create new abstractions in the framework. Do you have anything I could consider? 23:08:25 not really. I deploy to a staging box and test there.. 23:08:37 fusss: frontent being: the creation of the html-components 23:08:40 what's the difference between stacks? 23:08:53 but for dev i just run a local copy.. if your web server is not interchangeable.. you're using the wrong framework 23:09:16 rsynnott: in development i jsut use the UCW httpd on port 8000 and be done with it. 23:09:21 ah, yep 23:09:26 fusss: I think the backend should be defined by the users mainly... perhaps it could be nice to provide them with something like elephant to get them started more quickly, but it really isn't my decision 23:09:51 tying in backends tends to lead to monolithic horrors like rails/jdango 23:09:56 *django 23:10:03 to deploy i go behind proxys and apache etc etc etc.. under runit to keep things running with monitors in case it goes down etc etc etc 23:10:09 *nyef* shudders in memory of django hacking. 23:10:12 elephant's quite nice, though 23:10:29 how am I supposed to use cl-emb? 23:10:38 though it's one of these things that is seriously in need of a release at this point :) 23:10:51 rsynnott: I do actually like rails :) I'm looking at some things they did to convert them to lisp. For instance, the routes system works rather nice 23:11:01 madnificent: have you spent a lot of time working in all the other cl web frameworks and found them lacking .. or are you just wankin like the rest of us? 23:11:36 i have a few page templates created with dreamweaver and I need to use them as containers for generated content. decided to go with cl-emb, to keep the format as close to original as possible (as opposd to cl-who, or clml-1, my fav.) 23:11:38 -!- enodran [n=brandon@207-180-130-218.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 23:12:06 hm....using sleep really isn't like using a timer 23:12:09 fusss: TAL from yacml is also very good 23:12:12 it blocks my repl :/ 23:12:30 cYmen: what were you expecting it to do? 23:12:39 drewc: I'm having a good time creating this :) I haven't checked them thorougly enough to be fair. I have looked at them briefly, but I want something really really straight-forward and transparant (as in: there should be no difference between an html-tag and a news-overview). 23:13:01 madnificent: you mean like UCW and weblocks? 23:13:12 fusss: I've built a simple sexps->html system 23:13:19 yet another component based we framework 23:13:21 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:13:25 another one? :S 23:13:26 drewc: using cl-who kind of removes that 23:13:28 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A14B8.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:13:32 with yet another nother cl markup language.. 23:13:37 madnificent: huh? 23:14:15 you should never have to say that you're going to output html 23:14:19 benny [n=benny@i577A14B8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:14:34 madnificent: how, pray tell, will you do so then? 23:14:51 wait .. i don't use cl-who so maybe i'm missing something. 23:14:58 *drewc* googles. 23:14:58 (defpage "/index.html" (html (head (title "foo")) (body (h1 "yay") (p "more yay")))) 23:15:01 works now 23:15:10 madnificent: ummm 23:15:22 madnificent: that's different to cl-who how? 23:15:28 serious lag here .. 23:15:28 (apart from minor syntax changes) 23:15:42 (with-html-output (:html (:head ... 23:15:43 Maddas: how is that different from any other lisp ml lib? 23:16:02 madnificent: nothing to show you, in terms of useful reusable code. i'm just hacking my way out of problems, one at a time, and each one anew 23:16:02 madnificent: i assue that the with-html-output is hidden in defpage. 23:16:08 and allso, this is transparant, so (html (head (title "foo")) (items-list)) will work too 23:16:22 madnificent: oh .. i get you 23:16:38 just like yaclml.. only you dirty up the namespace as well. 23:17:07 madnificent: (<:html (<:head (<:title "foo"))...) 23:17:11 it's not something groundbreaking... that isn't my goal either. I'm trying to build something that works nicely 23:17:14 *rsynnott* doesn't see what people have agains cl-who 23:17:27 rsynnott: i don't like it myself hereit 23:17:29 either 23:17:41 (div :class "foo" "with some " (strong "content")) 23:17:54 *fusss* somehow doesn't use the .html suffix for this web app. 23:18:17 (<:div :class "foo" "with some " (<:strong "content)) 23:18:17 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:36 drewc: as I said, it's not groundbreaking, but I want it to be casual... I don't find things like that to be casual 23:18:36 madnificent: what happens if type your form in, say, CL-USER at the repl? 23:18:51 madnificent: things like what 23:18:52 ? 23:18:55 drewc: you must use the minions.html package (what a name) 23:19:05 madnificent: so .. wait .. 23:19:13 i have to tell it that i'm going to output html 23:19:16 drewc: you can use (htmlify `(html (head ...)) too if you want 23:19:23 by using a package.. 23:19:48 drewc: it should be loaded with the rest of the framework. At least, that is the idea 23:19:52 ok .. so the only difference between this and the others is that is was written by you and has less features and maturity :) 23:20:03 just say NIH .. its fine ... 23:20:08 I think it is quicker than typing : everywhere or <: 23:20:19 madnificent: #arc is that way 23:20:24 lispelot [n=lispelot@207-180-130-218.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:34 (use-package :<) 23:20:38 drewc: and as I said before, I'm not making anything groundbreaking. I'm building what I want to use 23:20:41 #arc, definitely. 23:20:44 kpreid: bingo 23:20:58 madnificent: you are re-inventing the wheel in the process though 23:21:01 and since it is quicker to write that html-generator than to search for one. I reconned I might as well write it 23:21:12 drewc: sure, but that might even be part of the fun 23:21:21 drewc: no one is forced to use it ;) 23:21:22 exactly. .. just say NIH 23:21:25 it's not NIH, it's elitism 23:21:30 -!- lispelot [n=lispelot@207-180-130-218.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:21:33 ahh .. elitism 23:21:40 lispelot [n=lispelot@207-180-130-218.c3-0.abr-ubr1.sbo-abr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:45 arc has builtin support for tables and everything ;) 23:21:58 and why would it be elitism? it could be elitism IF I would claim it was something new 23:22:13 madnificent: wiithout having tried the alternatives .. how could you possibly know what you want to use? 23:22:21 Why does everyone say "elitism" as if it were something bad? 23:22:22 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A14B8.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:22:24 guys, please, no more multithreaded win32 ports of sbcl. two are enough! 23:22:32 anyways, as everything should be, it is replacable by the user and choosable for any subsystem any user chooses, so I don't really see what the fuss is all about 23:22:38 benny [n=benny@i577A14B8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:22:39 have you been lisping long enough to know what an excellent design is for a lisp web framework? 23:22:57 (this is my problem with weblocks as well) 23:23:17 that's not just a case of lisping enough 23:23:29 drewc: I wrote a webapp in a virtual framework, the way I would like to start using a framework (AFTER looking at some other frameworks, yet not thoroughly enough to condemn them) 23:23:30 Hell, I've been lisping for years now and I haven't the slightest clue what an excellent design for a lisp web framework would be beyond "not based on araneida". 23:23:30 it's also a case of having written web applications enough 23:23:32 madnificent: no fuss really, just pointing out what you will come to learn. 23:23:49 drewc: is fun in programming suddenly forbiddin in this channel? 23:23:53 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:24:03 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:13 madnificent: nope... we all have different types of fun. 23:24:14 rsynnott: that, I have done 23:24:28 hfoo [n=h@p5B17D4CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:31 but just claim that first.. not that your way is different or better :) 23:24:33 nyef: it is clear from looking around the wonderful world of web frameworks that basically no-one knows what an excellent design for any sort of web framework would be 23:24:49 rsynnott: you should see the _new_ ucw :D 23:24:53 anyways, I've rarely seen people demotivate others without reason this quickly 23:25:05 madnificent: i'm jsut being selfish 23:25:28 though a number of people seem to strongly believe that 'the same as rails' is it :) 23:25:38 i develop web apps in lisp for a living, and i'd rather see something useful than yet another re-implementation of a tired idea. 23:25:50 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 23:25:54 drewc: then don't look! 23:25:58 madnificent: nothing personal or demotivating meant, please don't listen to me :) 23:25:58 Rails impressed me in one respect, and that was the database schema stuff, the name of which escapes me. 23:26:13 i cannot stand rails 23:26:20 nyef: activerecord 23:26:29 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 23:26:31 nyef: oh .. you meant the migrating or database versions? 23:26:35 -!- smolyn is now known as smolyn|away 23:26:38 Well, at least nowadays it's apparently possible to use composite keys with rails. 23:26:40 Seriously, rollback and roll-forward on the schema version? -That's- cool. 23:26:42 that is good stuff 23:26:51 nyef: cl-perec has something like that, no? 23:27:00 i tried to advocate for something like that in lisp when i was at ITA.... 23:27:40 madnificent: I wouldn't know. I tend not to do database stuff these days except when I'm on a contract, and said contracts involve a framework that is definately not lisp. 23:27:44 drewc: and the that other thing is routes (which I will probably rebuild somehow) 23:27:51 what are routes? 23:28:08 they make the packets flow 23:28:08 nyef: activerecord has its own issues, though 23:28:09 drewc: it resolves links 23:28:21 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:28:27 madnificent: no... DNS does that.... 23:28:32 drewc: decides what controller/method a request should be sent too, simple but efficient 23:28:32 in particular, it is BREATHTAKINGLY slow 23:28:37 rsynnott: I'm fairly sure it wasn't called activerecord in the documentation I read. 23:28:42 madnificent: you mearn its a dispatche 23:28:46 drewc: and only DNS is allowed to do that ;) 23:28:48 mean its a dispatcher. 23:29:06 *drewc* has his stupid trackpad set to click. 23:29:06 drewc: dispatcher == internal router, but it works in two directions 23:29:18 expalin 23:29:20 explain 23:29:20 it generates URLS from internal objects? 23:29:22 damnit 23:29:23 there's a real shortage of modern web frameworks for C. 23:29:35 what kpreid said 23:29:40 oh 23:29:49 madnificent: ok .. so UCW has both of those. 23:29:51 hefner: There's probably a good reason for that, too. 23:29:55 hefner: someone on planet.lisp uses a C-based bliogging platform :) 23:30:22 hefner: there's at least one in C++. 23:30:23 (this: http://www.advogato.org/) 23:30:32 generally rails has the integration of all components rather nice, with some simple concepts that I like 23:31:08 "MAKEFILE: Changed -fPIC to -fpic. This may have been the cause of 459 a couple of segfaults, due to a conflict with the flag used to compile 460 Apache and/or libxml2 on some distros. 23:31:20 there ought to be a canonical set of toy applications one implements to demonstrate a new web framework - reddit clone, blogalike, and what else? 23:31:24 that's exactly the sort of thing I DON'T want to deal with when writing websites :) 23:31:27 hefner: wiki 23:31:34 hefner: those are the current popular ones 23:31:42 Hmm what do you reckon, Hunchentoot is opening port 4242 OK but it wasn't working. I just telneted to the port and everything I type is just echoed back again?! 23:31:45 in the old days, a guestbook or page impression counter were big 23:32:01 rsynnott: form mailer! 23:32:06 hefner: wiki 23:32:11 yep, that too :) 23:32:12 er, whoops 23:32:20 kpreid: is there an echo in 'ere? 23:32:24 *rsynnott* wonders what the future holds for toy tutorial apps 23:32:32 hefner: reddit, blog, ajax-show-off, preferbly something that interconnects with other things (like picasa, ...) 23:32:33 wait .. while i have you on the topic 23:32:33 twitter clone, perhaps! 23:32:42 hefner: but that is not only lisp-centered ;) 23:32:46 or social networking 23:32:52 rsynnott: what would you like to see in the new ucw demo? 23:33:04 *drewc* was close to doing a blog or a wiki\ 23:33:08 heheh 23:33:09 drewc: repl. 23:33:13 er, hefner: 23:33:22 *kpreid* is thoroughly mixed up... 23:33:29 kpreid: actually .. 23:33:32 kick-ass idea., 23:33:44 *drewc* is cursing a lot more in 2009 23:34:02 *madnificent* heads to bed (sadly drewc! ;) 23:34:11 i wonder if i damaged the part of my brain that usually turns kick-ass into 'great' 23:34:26 madnificent: until the next time! :) 23:34:33 drewc: for extra points, one with autocompletion and suchlike ! 23:34:41 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:34:47 though that really becomes more an exercise in Javascript 23:34:51 sure drewc, but more constructive, if possible :P 23:35:09 madnificent: you will realize your folly one day :P 23:35:10 ahh figured it out nevermind 23:35:15 (possibly the future is not climacs or hemlock, but emacs for the browser!) 23:35:35 rsynnott: i was just discussing that with nyef earlier actually. 23:35:42 madnificent: all comments on what you're doing are useful 23:35:46 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-54-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 23:35:57 constructive ones are just easier to deal with personally :) 23:36:28 with modern browsers, it's not actually a totally horrible idea 23:36:34 i thought i was being constructive actually :) 23:36:56 though it might pre-empt steve yegge's JS emacs thing a bit 23:37:03 'hey.. you're re-implementing what is actually a good 2-3 man-years of work to get right' 23:37:12 rsynnott: McCLIM/Webkit ;) 23:37:35 pkhuong: i played with that idea to .. McCLIM-ajax 23:37:36 isn't webkit that scary old objc web framework? 23:38:01 oh, nope, sorry, that's something else 23:38:04 pkhuong: but .. i much prefer writing UCW apps that mcclim apps :) 23:38:17 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 23:38:51 drewc: that might be a bit of a low-level approach for an in-browser dev env, though :) 23:38:54 I much prefer writing computational C++ code than GUI or Web apps... 23:39:16 as do most people, but there's far more work in the latter these days 23:39:52 all these people who never tried UCW thinking we still have to write them like web apps :) 23:40:00 *rsynnott* must have a look at it 23:40:11 nikodemus: do you have any idea what could have made SBCL/darwin/x86 fail with a lost gc invariant during the build? 23:40:12 I'm going over to #smalltalk .. at least they know how it's done :) 23:40:32 rsynnott: are you familiar with web development in general but now ucw? 23:40:45 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@adsl-69-153-199-137.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:40:56 not ucw* 23:41:24 and now for my most hated of tasks: getting iptables working 23:41:30 moderately familiar with web development 23:41:36 not with ucw 23:41:46 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:14 ucw is the continuations-based one, right? 23:42:22 rsynnott: excellent .. could i ask you to read/comment on a document meant to introduce the high-level concepts of ucw to people like yourself? 23:42:37 -!- smolyn|away is now known as smolyn 23:42:50 it has support for continuation based development, yes, but that is no longer the focus nor the best way to do all things 23:43:07 it's seaside for lisp, essentially. 23:43:15 ah, sounds interesting, then 23:43:18 sure, I'll take a look 23:43:37 and has follows the development/evolution of seaside closely, as Avi lives nearby and we talk about these things 23:43:40 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:43:55 rsynnott: great .. hold on lemme get it somewhere public 23:44:07 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:45:01 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk18.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 23:45:55 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:47:19 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:31 rsynnott: I am also around to answer questions about weblocks if you are looking at that also 23:47:40 drewc: that sounds exciting, where can we download this new UCW? :) 23:48:29 luis: http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/repos/ucw-core/ 23:49:32 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:49:46 rsynnott: http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/repos/ucw-core/manual/getting-started.txt .. though view it in emacs cause there are no linebreaks and my browser, at least, doesn't like that. 23:50:14 dreish: M-q FTW? 23:50:26 lucca: yeah 23:50:29 luis: 23:50:34 or pipe it through fold(1) 23:51:00 it's really supposed to go through gigamonkey markup first anyway. 23:51:08 i just have not got.ten to formatting yet 23:51:17 luis: Are you asking me to leave #lisp? 23:51:23 sorry .. i _have_ to turn of the trackpad clicking. 23:51:28 mine appears to be tolerant of it 23:51:38 -!- pjb [n=t@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:51:41 rsynnott: well there you go! 23:51:45 :) 23:51:47 dreish: I think luis pressed dre and accepted what was there ;) 23:51:47 dreish: sorry, that was meant for drewc. 23:52:01 Ah, np 23:52:22 dreish: FWIW i did the same to luis right afterwards .. poor lucca might be as confused :) 23:52:31 o.o 23:52:52 rsynnott: wait ... there was a version with linebreaks at one point 23:53:04 drewc: is there something else built on top of ucw-core? 23:53:15 *lucca* hmphs and returns to the lamp 23:54:33 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:47 luis: yes, a few really. right now there is ucw-standard (which is an implementation of what used to be ucw_dev on the new core) and lisp-on-lines as well. When it gets released, i suspect we'll see a ucw-ajax implementation, and a few other ucw's (ucw+, core-server, etc) come back into the fold 23:55:16 so this ucw...are there any usage examples? 23:55:18 the idea was, originally, a stable ucw base that would run existing ucw apps, which are almost all built on frameworks built on ucw 23:55:35 cYmen: that's my next step 23:55:52 we used to have lots of examples and no documentation. 23:55:54 drewc: but you say there are already existing ucw apps 23:55:56 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 23:56:15 cYmen: indeed... tons. those will serve, as will the old examples in -ajax and -dev 23:56:31 however, they may not work in -core as things have changes slightly. 23:56:49 pstickne [n=pstickne@97-120-101-234.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:55 i will be porting them and writing a chapter 2 of the manual to go along with them. 23:57:02 sooth [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1176028474.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:57:15 "any webserver as a front end including a few built in"...wtf? :) 23:57:22 first things first is to release what we have so ucw users can port their stuff. 23:57:32 cYmen: there are at least 3 web servers included with ucw 23:57:45 and more out there that are ucw specific 23:57:52 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:54 how old is this stuff? 23:58:09 ucw itself? hrm ... 23:58:20 7 years maybe 23:58:39 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 23:58:46 wel that makes sense then... 23:58:47 I'll see if i can find out :) 23:58:49 -!- ReiniUrban [n=chatzill@212-183-54-127.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp 23:58:56 only makes sense if it's pretty good actually 23:59:13 anyway sounded like you were building something new :) 23:59:22 Wow. It's been about five and a half years since I started seriously using lisp.