00:00:20 I was thinking rather of the interpreter, not compiler... 00:00:23 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@72-254-136-53.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 00:00:38 mjf: then, it would be easier to translate the assembler into Common Lisp, since the program was written first in LISP, and then translated into assembler by hand. A lot of routines are commented with their LISP source... 00:00:43 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:00:59 -!- _8david` [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:01:00 afaik it was MACLISP that truly added a compiler... 00:01:12 _8david` [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:01:13 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:01:19 p_l: how was LISP 1.5 compiler false? 00:02:17 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.99.25] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:02:35 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:47 pjb: I don't know exactly when they made a compiler - I remember some people referencing to MACLISP as the first _compiled_ lisp, but I might be wrong 00:03:04 and MACLISP said "thou shalt hold no false compilers above me" 00:03:58 Well, there definitely was a LISP 1.5 compiler, so they can say whatever they want, but the first lisp compiler wasn't MACLISP. 00:04:06 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-29-81-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 00:04:09 ok 00:04:22 Anyways, Good Evening & Dobranoc ;-) 00:04:39 pjb: 'Branoc ;-) 00:04:54 -!- newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.247] has left #lisp 00:05:20 maybe I should get around to reading LISP1.5 manual 00:06:22 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:44 ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.93.142] has joined #lisp 00:07:45 p_l: it's nice reading, I simply love lisp1.5, while it seems so "clear" to me, very KISS 00:08:45 pjb: In my country we say "Dobrou noc" ("Good night") 00:11:10 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 00:11:23 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.84.205] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:11:24 mjf: let me guess: Czech, Slovakia? I'm not sure how the word changes the farther you get (and I think Russian had different) :-) 00:11:30 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.80] has left #lisp 00:11:45 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:11:57 p_l: Czech... 00:12:08 p_l: mjf.cz (if you wanna know more) 00:12:33 :-) 00:12:41 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:12:43 p_l: and you? 00:13:10 mjf: Poland, currently in Scotland as Student :) 00:14:01 p_l: ah, enjoying the marvellous highland single-malt whiskey atm? great... :) 00:14:19 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 00:14:36 heh 00:15:43 Rather enjoying the lack of money and the fact that casual hotel staffing works weirdly 00:16:28 hehe :) 00:16:52 I was in England this summer and the hotels there were pain! :( 00:17:07 frankly speaking sometimes I wish I didn't go to Scotland, so right now I'd be enjoying appreciated rest after another day of sysadmining 00:17:38 sysadmining's fun 00:17:55 mjf: Especially on big iron :) 00:18:05 :) 00:18:23 -!- anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:19:26 haven't been long enough in old workplace to actually play with software side... but just the thrill of finding that some idiot connected a server directly to a FC switch using unnamed cables was better than trying to call the hotel when I can finally get some work 00:20:39 p_l: Perhaps I am a little crazy but I simply can not stop reading things like AIM-453 (right now) and so. Am I crazy? I think you are still well in comparison to me... ;) 00:21:35 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-30-92.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:41 mjf: You are probably crazy. 00:22:13 and I really liked my job in Poland. Easy, nice, air conditioning and good pay 00:22:26 FSVO of easy 00:22:39 why'd you leave? 00:22:57 rsynnott: Already had been accepted to university here in Scotland 00:23:13 ah 00:23:16 I'm having trouble silencing SBCL... when I load postmodern, it poops the dependencies all over my terminal ("loading system definition (...) registering (...)"). does anyone know of a way to suppress this stuff that actually works? the stuff at http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Controlling-Verbosity.html doesn't. 00:23:26 p_l: So why the hell you went to Scotland? 00:23:28 which one? 00:23:35 Didn't suspect it would be as hard to get an IT job here. 00:23:35 Kaz annotated #72068 with "New intern directive, empty directives, bugfixes." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72068#1 00:23:41 rsynnott: The University of Aberdeen 00:23:48 ah, cool 00:23:54 mjf: Cause I didn't get into MIT 00:24:03 but yep, it's a bit middle-of-nowhere to be looking for IT jobs 00:24:12 p_l: MIT is pretty expensive... 00:24:17 mjf: And Japan was too risky 00:24:25 (scotland as a whole doesn't actually have many jobs, I don't think) 00:24:34 Isn't the big employer still the state? 00:24:35 mjf: It's not expensive. Thinking that it's expensive is what probably killed a lot of my chances 00:24:47 p_l: ?? 00:24:59 p_l: How much is it now for foreigners? 00:25:09 p_l: I mean per year... (two semesters) 00:25:12 ebzzry__ [n=rmm@124.217.64.27] has joined #lisp 00:25:17 mjf: It's always the same - around 50k USD per year 00:25:22 eek 00:25:27 that's impressively expensive 00:25:28 the thing is, they will make sure you have enough to pay :) 00:25:33 p_l: ah, THAT'S EXPENSIVE ;) 00:25:36 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-061-131.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:44 p_l: you an undergrad or postgrad? 00:25:54 rsynnott: undergrad 00:26:02 hrm 00:26:09 my son got accepted to MIT 00:26:18 it was going to be closer to $30k/year. 00:26:20 university's free in scotland, right? 00:26:22 not $50. 00:26:33 (for EU citizens) 00:26:53 bougyman: $30k/year? That's a little better... 00:27:04 AFAIK MIT calculates the amount of money you can pay, and pays the rest for you 00:27:09 that's the out-of-state tuition. 00:27:14 p_l: i thought that was harvard? 00:27:19 does MIT do the same? 00:27:26 bougyman: MIT, Harvard, Yale 00:27:35 they have the same system 00:27:41 *rsynnott* paid 700 euro a year for college 00:27:52 'registration fee' 00:28:01 (re-introducing fees by the back door, really) 00:28:17 1700 GBP per year in Scotland, except since I'm undergrad., SAAS is paying for me 00:28:23 (at my uni) 00:28:30 bougyman: but, considering that I spend about 250K Czech Crowns per year on living, I will need to earn about 100M of Czech Crowns to have money to study there, so it's still expensive (nobody I know earns so much in my country) 00:28:33 afaik it's the max. price 00:28:49 bougyman: sorry, 1M, not 100M 00:28:52 bougyman: ! 00:28:55 bougyman: :) 00:29:11 ah, weird, I thought scottish unis were free for EU citizens 00:29:18 MIT makes sure that if you get accepted, you'll be able to pay. 00:29:24 -!- ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.93.142] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:29:31 rsynnott: It's free in the sense that government is paying 00:29:38 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["dada"] 00:29:47 yep 00:30:06 so there are no back door fees - the fees are real, but it's gov. that pays them 00:30:12 ah, yep 00:30:56 weirdly, it was possible to go on exchange from my uni to one of those mad expensive US ones for a year, for free 00:31:08 ths [n=ths@X74f5.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:31:58 If I had been accepted to MIT, I'd pay nearly nothing 00:32:09 (50k was the tuition + accommodation) 00:32:36 sometimes it's good being poor 00:32:48 ? 00:33:05 mjf: Family earnings didn't cross 60k USD a year :P 00:33:15 Isn't it great that the price of University is "as much as you can pay"? 00:33:33 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 00:33:38 yes and no. 00:33:38 foom: no. 00:33:43 yes and no 00:33:48 well, with SOME sort of cap, hopefully 00:33:55 someone has to pay. 00:33:57 bit unfair on bill gates and so on otherwise :) 00:33:57 Well, yes, they advertise an upper bound 00:34:03 that's what the $50k is 00:34:07 professors don't work for "whatever the university can afford" 00:34:21 bougyman: ignorance costs more than knowledge, both for the individual and society. 00:34:34 the ones in worst situation are the ones who fall in the middle of financial status 00:34:46 -!- _8david` [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:34:49 interestingly, they're accomplishing something rather similar to what we do here; here progressive taxation pays for the universities; in the US, from this description, rich parents (effectively progressive taxation) pay for thme 00:34:55 _8david` [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:35:06 rsynnott: at some schools, yes. 00:35:13 ah, not all use this system? 00:35:16 lucca: It's however expensive to provide good education. And bad education is worse than ignorance 00:35:20 rsynnott: at 'State' universities the price is nominal for in-state students. 00:35:35 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-045-127.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:40 to Texas, UCLA, USC, etc. are very cheap if you live in Texas or California, respecively. 00:35:48 but expensive if you're from out of state. 00:35:59 rsynnott: there are community schools offering 2 year degrees to everyone with a pulse for nearly nothing; 00:36:16 but not proper degrees? 00:36:17 rsynnott: state schools offering 4 year (bachelor) degrees for a small but noticable fee 00:36:20 p_l: We got about $23K (approx.) 00:36:22 and yes, community college are the same price as 4 year State schools, but have lower bar for entry/acceptance. 00:36:27 ah 00:36:33 state universities offering 4 year and doctoral degrees for much more 00:36:38 yep, we have that here; they're called ITs 00:36:39 and private schools, which vary widely 00:36:48 those are different 00:37:06 tech schools are almost completely private here. 00:37:13 very few government run tech/specialy schools. 00:37:20 there are also numerous ways for a student to pay for education, with a myriad of scholarships, grants, loans, student jobs, etc 00:37:22 (funnily enough, a private third level institute here is what you go too if you failed to get into a real university but are well off) 00:37:31 they're not allowed award proper degrees, though 00:38:07 *p_l* should have taken the chance at japanese scholarship instead of going to Scotland 00:38:08 rsynnott: here the private schools are frequently better, but it Really varies depending on school and field 00:38:27 my son chose North Texas (state school) over MIT 00:38:28 the private ones don't get the state funding all the others do here, so they're not up to much 00:38:34 not for price or location, but for quality! 00:38:55 UMass (MA state uni) costs $5200/semester approx tuition + ~$4.5k room & board. 00:38:55 who knew that North Texas had the best jazz and one of the best CompSci programs in the nation (I didn't) 00:39:05 (also, they tend to be oriented toward business and similar) 00:39:10 that's a pretty hefty dent even.. 00:39:15 bougyman: the best jazz? Really? 00:39:21 bougyman: I love jazz :) 00:39:28 seems geographically inappropriate 00:39:35 rsynnott: yessir. 00:39:46 foom: a semester is half a year? 00:40:05 rsynnott: i love that he took up jazz instead of becoming another bar-chord zombie 00:40:08 rsynnott: correct 00:40:14 some schools use semesters (fall, spring), others use quarters (fall, winter, spring, summer) 00:40:17 ah 00:40:32 no tuition here, but the room and board would be higher 00:40:40 rsynnott: UNT had one of the first colleges offering a major in jazz in the U.S. 00:40:52 (my son taught me all this info, i was ignorant, of course0 00:40:59 (though they'd usually be covered by a local authority grant except for people who live near or whose parents are quite well off) 00:41:11 i figured something in louisiana or back east would be the jazz headquarters. 00:41:14 not Denton, Texas. 00:41:19 yep, that's what I'd have guessed 00:43:03 even New York or somewhere would seem more probable 00:43:15 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:40 (though I can't really imagine what a jazz degree would consist of, considering the nature of jazz :) ) 00:44:18 history of jazz, maybe. :) 00:46:12 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:04 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483CC46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:47:19 Need to sleep. 00:47:26 Good night. 00:47:30 Bye. 00:47:39 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk111.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 00:54:30 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.250.77] has joined #lisp 01:00:33 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:01:15 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:06:48 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:06:59 ice_four [n=ice_four@host217-43-8-66.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 01:09:24 amigacorr190 [n=noemailf@84.228.145.132] has joined #lisp 01:09:53 -!- amigacorr190 [n=noemailf@84.228.145.132] has left #lisp 01:10:44 Is there a way to get the output of describe as a string? 01:11:33 rlpowell: describe takes an optional second argument for the stream. 01:12:23 *rlpowell* feels dumb. "Thanks." 01:13:06 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 01:13:55 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 01:20:55 wasabi_________ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:22:40 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 01:24:33 dakeyras_ [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:35 _sledge_ [n=chris@CPE001c109fb260-CM001ac319195a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:28:14 persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 01:31:31 Hello folks. 01:32:04 -!- _sledge_ [n=chris@CPE001c109fb260-CM001ac319195a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:53 Before I roll my own. Anything in the wild that lets me globally search and replace inside a tree. (replace 1 a '((1 2 (4 3 1) (1))) -> ((a 2 (4 3 a) (a)) ? 01:33:02 -!- wasabi________ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:35:25 minion: tell persi about sublis 01:35:27 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``sublis''. 01:35:35 lol 01:36:27 fen[nl]ix: thanks man. just what I needed. 01:39:06 persi: (sublis (acons 1 'a nil) '((1 2 (4 3 1) (1)))) 01:40:35 -!- dakeyras_ [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:40:41 fe[nl]ix: i wasn't kidding. regardless of minion, I cought the info. thanks! 01:40:53 ths_ [n=ths@X61f6.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:43:18 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:44:29 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:49:18 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 01:50:19 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-94e5e7d8488958fc] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:50:28 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:33 -!- mulander [n=user@nat-4.interq.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:01 etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-44-109.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:20 clhs sublis 01:52:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sublis.htm 01:55:12 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:10 phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 01:56:12 -!- ths [n=ths@X74f5.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:42 does the Practical Common Lisp book teach CL (the programming language) or it teaches something else (like software engineering) using CL? 01:57:44 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.250.77] has joined #lisp 01:58:03 it teaches CL 01:58:07 thank you. 01:58:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:58:39 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.250.77] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:58:54 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:18 and how to make a CD database! 02:06:51 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@72-254-136-53.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:41 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:11:34 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB97B2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:13:06 -!- phf [n=user@c-98-231-150-21.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:14:01 with lists! And straight-to-text serialization! 02:14:44 the database technology of the 60s... TODAY 02:15:01 with twice the conses! 02:15:10 or something 02:16:23 (though I think the first programming book I ever read actually had a database which was random-accessible on disk as the last exercise) 02:16:48 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:17:07 which would be closer to the USEFUL tech of the 60s 02:17:57 in the 00s, we have OSes. 02:18:02 -!- etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-44-109.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.4 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 02:21:36 nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:13 How would one recover a REPL after typing (setf read-suppress t) ? 02:25:13 -!- nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:25:24 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:30:48 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:47 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:34:01 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:39:40 -!- roger_w [n=SoupNazi@69.34.16.39] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:42:28 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:02:59 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:06:41 -!- ice_four [n=ice_four@host217-43-8-66.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 03:07:42 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-182.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 03:16:24 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:27:35 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 03:33:36 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:34:14 tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@unaffiliated/tc-rucho] has joined #lisp 03:36:33 why if I define a package :tc-mpd, define some functions in it, then (defpackage :tc-bot (:use :common-lisp :irc :ppcre :tc-mpd)) I have to do (tc-mpd::function ..) ? 03:36:48 or should I create an .asd file? 03:38:51 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:40:53 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:45:02 AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has joined #lisp 03:46:31 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@72-254-136-53.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 03:49:14 tc-rucho: if you're doing a lot of interaction with it 03:49:53 you may find it useful to do (defpackage :tc-mpd-user (:ul :cl :tc-mpd)) 03:50:04 oh, from tc-bot? 03:50:06 ul? 03:50:14 sorry, the ul shouldn't be there 03:50:22 ah 03:50:34 if you export the symbols you want to use from tc-mpd, thy'll turn up in tc-bot 03:50:35 well, I did that... 03:50:58 if I want to export functions, how should I do it? 03:51:15 so (defpackage :bla (:use :cl) (:export :myfun1 :myfun2)) 03:51:21 oh 03:51:27 then in bla define the functions 03:51:30 I'll check that 03:51:58 this should all be in the relevant section of pcl 03:52:56 asdf is a separate issue; it's for actually defining a system to be loaded 03:53:16 http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html - may be useful 03:54:16 thanks a ton rsynnott (: 03:54:52 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:35 evening 04:00:00 what's wrong with 60s technology? in the 60s, they couldn't afford to screw around. 04:02:27 go-go boots, nehru jackets, tie-dyes, what's not to like!? 04:02:57 hefnr: It's good to see that you've gone web2.0 on us 04:03:04 :) 04:14:16 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:14:19 I'm still waiting for google to buy me for millions of dollars. 04:18:36 hefnr: what's your web2.0 thing, then? 04:19:20 (and is it in 60s technology, with the little-known punched-card-to-ethernet bridge? :) 04:21:13 oh, just the nick, right now. google isn't so bright; I reckoned the nick change was enough, but maybe I should've sprung for the domain name as well. 04:22:23 tsk 04:22:37 *rsynnott* is slow tonight 04:22:40 -!- phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:23:11 hefnr: first you have to build a community of kool-aid drinkers with hefcamp 04:26:50 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:27:49 hefner, add AJAX .. lots of it! 04:27:51 :) 04:28:10 karlw [n=user@dsl081-068-221.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:20 Hi. 04:28:30 lnostdal: but then I wouldn't live to see my fortune :( 04:29:13 Does anyone know of a good lexical analyzer generator for CL? 04:29:44 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 04:34:00 Preferably flex compatible. 04:35:55 karlw: there are a couple on cliki 04:36:34 hmm, well, there are lots of parser generators 04:36:43 I think there's at least one lexer generator 04:37:01 (I've used cl-yacc, but I don't think it had a lexer generator) 04:37:34 Has anyone used LISPBUILDER-SDL ? 04:38:38 Good morning. 04:39:42 *DEFAULT-SURFACE* is NIL even after initialization 04:44:11 There's cl-lexer but it's ``experimental'' 04:44:20 mornin' beach 04:46:47 hey beach 04:47:06 drdo: I'm playing with it. 04:49:52 sykopomp: inside (with-init (sdl-init-video) ), *default-surface* is NIL 04:52:04 *shrug* 04:52:41 :S 04:52:48 is it working for you? 04:52:52 i installed from asdf-install 04:52:57 -!- mait [n=user@genyv.rot.sgsnet.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:40 I'm using the dev version. 04:53:45 well, VC 04:54:17 where can i find it? 04:54:51 google works- 04:55:01 sorry, reading through stuff >_> 04:55:28 i'm at the lispbuilder-sdl website 04:55:35 but all i can find is the stable version 04:57:05 http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/ 04:57:57 thank you 04:59:49 wow. The google code repo is really active. 04:59:52 That makes me really happy. 05:00:11 yeah, lots of bugs! :) 05:00:34 actually, most edits seem to be wiki page edits :P 05:00:41 or minor fixes O.o 05:01:02 I guess that either means lispbuilder is mostly done, or that they've given up on making it stable. 05:01:04 :( 05:01:58 whoa, hey. They have a lot of docs. 05:02:03 http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/w/list Fantastic. 05:02:31 http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/LispbuilderSDL Nipples included. 05:02:37 surely such an ambitious project is never done 05:03:05 although their long-term, potentially sinister goals have yet to be reveals 05:03:16 I mean, it's really just a wrapper around SDL. Once you have your interface working and the major bugs squeezed out, it's only a matter of keeping up with development of the library. 05:03:45 sykopomp: i'm using SVN version now 05:03:49 and it's still not working 05:03:52 :( 05:03:53 no, you have to make some random changes every month or two, otherwise the next newbie with a copy of the cffi manual will claim it's "dead" and write a new one 05:03:58 does it work for you? 05:04:06 drdo: make sure you're initializing things properly then. Read through docs, etc. 05:04:15 you may have to set a window before you have any surfaces 05:05:04 hefner: I smell the bitterness :( 05:05:14 it follows me everywhere 05:05:15 sykopomp: so that's the problem 05:05:37 drdo: hah. 05:05:47 drdo: well, you can't really have surfaces without a window, I guess :) 05:06:09 wow. The docs for sdl in the google code wiki are pretty good. 05:06:10 it makes sense conceptually :P 05:07:16 apparently that wasn't the problem 05:07:22 it still does not work 05:07:28 -!- karlw [n=user@dsl081-068-221.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:07:29 drdo: have you tried running one of the examples from the wiki? 05:08:02 will try that now 05:16:23 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:19:59 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:47 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1F6C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:54 segv [n=mb@p4FC1D37D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:53 -!- gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ec26a1fa4108d253] has quit [D-lined] 05:55:55 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178000043.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:55:55 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178000043.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:29:48 H4ns [n=hans@92.117.73.68] has joined #lisp 06:29:56 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-019-237.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:06 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-180-118-254.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:09 -!- persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 06:40:46 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-30-92.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:34 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:45:11 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:06 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 07:00:34 -!- H4ns [n=hans@92.117.73.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:05:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:14:50 sykopomp: when you explain the example with (print "Hello World", you might want to explain why the string gets printed twice, i.e. say explicitly that the second one is the value printed by the REPL. 07:15:27 beach: I did? Or maybe the explanation was a bit convoluted. 07:15:54 sykopomp: you sort of did, but not quite. 07:16:49 beach: roger, I'll patch it up :) 07:16:54 jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:17:03 hello 07:17:26 hello jbjohns 07:17:38 I have a question about package conventions 07:18:11 From what I've seen it seems people tend to make long names instead of depending on packaging for disambiguating the symbol 07:18:32 jbjohns: You haven't looked very far then. 07:18:40 jbjohns: often, but not always. 07:18:53 for example, if I have a function that opens a stream to some strange device in my strange device, it seems like many would name it strange-device-open instead of just open 07:18:55 jbjohns: or perhaps you looked at Emacs Lisp code. 07:19:00 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:19:04 Adamant__ [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:18 I've been browsing CL code. So my perception is wrong then? 07:19:37 jbjohns: that's for a different reason, namely that OPEN is already a Common Lisp function. 07:19:59 right, but in cl package. What's wrong with me having an open in my package? 07:20:29 jbjohns: nothing, but you would either have to not :use the cl package or shadow the open symbol. 07:21:12 That's what I meant, I know people potentially duplication names of different packages, it just seemed that most people avoid using names that are in CL. The problem is CL is really really large 07:22:37 jbjohns: you can avoid that problem if you have an interface package that only exports symbols, and define everything in an implementation package. 07:22:45 jbjohns: If you use the same names as the CL package and then export those names, you make it harder for others to :use your package, so one tends to avoid that (on the other hand, I don't think one should :use packages other than CL and possibly CLIM). 07:23:32 pkhuong: what problem is avoided that way? 07:23:35 I'm making a package myself where I use the name open, but I was wondering if people would not dislike that 07:23:43 beach: but if the package's names are chosen while assuming the package won't be USEd, not being able to USE it isn't an issue. 07:24:00 mulligan [n=user@e178042225.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:24:10 pkhuong: of course. 07:24:17 jbjohns: I would not export a symbol called open and expect people to use it. 07:24:25 pkhuong: I was thinking about that. Have my package work as normal, but have another package people can use if they care about having different names for everything 07:25:06 beach: no need to worry about shadowing. The interface package exports symbols and isn't used by anything; the implementation package only has to use explicit package names itself too. 07:25:11 sykopomp: I don't expect people to use the whole package, unless they don't use cl or something 07:25:57 I would expect open to be used as net:open 07:25:58 jbjohns: that's hard to do in CL. Symbols are complex first-class values, so creating ``synonyms'' isn't really possible. 07:26:57 sykopomp: A newline seems to be missing after (say-hello "Sykopomp") 07:26:59 pkhuong: why not? Can't you do something like: (defun defalias (alias source) 07:27:00 (setf (symbol-function alias) (symbol-function source))) 07:29:08 jbjohns: you're not defining a synonym at the symbol level, so it won't work for special variables, plists or eq tests (which may be useful for return values or enums). 07:29:31 that's one thing I was curious about; I would expect there to be like (:import-as 'source 'dest) like python has 07:29:54 beach: yeah. ABLE is a bit annoying in that it prints out stuff right away, instead of starting *standard-output* stuff in the next line. 07:30:59 <_3b> jbjohns: then what happens if you compare the symbol by name, like LOOP does? 07:31:01 pkhuong: well, I had made this function earlier on just to rename some functions. But in principle it could be made more complex to work on symbols couldn't it? 07:31:03 jbjohns: not in the standard. Again, things are hairier because symbols are much more than just names used only for their identity. 07:31:08 jbjohns: how? 07:31:18 sykopomp: so why did it not do that when you called (hello-world)? 07:31:38 beach: it doesn't seem to do it for PRINT :( 07:32:10 pkhuong: Well if the standard provided some way to import one symbol under a different symbol into your package then each implementation would know what was required to make it work. 07:32:25 sykopomp: only for FORMAT? That's weird! 07:32:40 jbjohns: and you can now have symbols whose name isn't their name. 07:32:47 I know. It's bizarre. ABLE is nice, but there's some annoyances. 07:33:19 sykopomp: You have no example of calling say-hello without an argument. 07:33:42 beach: it's in there. It just got lost in the REPL examples. 07:33:49 sykopomp: oh, sorry you do. Missed it first. 07:34:10 I kind of got confused at first, too. I didn't see where it was :P 07:34:52 sykopomp: I would choose a word other than `place' in (defvar place value) 07:35:09 pkhuong: well, I suppose it doesn't matter. With the shadowing stuff that's already there everything works ok. I just wondered why it seemed like people never wanted to use names that were in CL. In a language with packages/namespaces it just seemed like an odd thing 07:35:56 jbjohns: again, you're overgeneralizing. 07:37:58 No, I'm trying to understand if that is indeed the case, and if so, why. If I want to write libraries for others to use, I would need to try and go by the normal conventions, but as naming is probably the hardest part of writing good software, it's an extra burden to have to figure out some extra prefix (beside the package name) if that is indeed the case 07:38:46 jbjohns: basically, you have the choice between small-package-name:short-name or small-package-name-short-name 07:39:03 pjb: + nicknames. 07:39:40 well, I was thinking about that. In lots of languages with namespaces you can alias a namespace to be shorter, but (as pkhuong said as I'm typing) in CL you can just use nicknames, so np 07:39:50 jbjohns: there is another convention (which I don't particularly like) which is to prefix a CLOS accessor by a class name, such as window-width instead of just width. 07:40:02 jbjohns: given that a single package may export several ADT, it might still be worthwhile to prefix the name of the functions by the type name. Like string-trim, char-name, integer-length. 07:40:20 beach: Yes, that was one of the first things that made me wonder what the conventions were 07:40:35 jbjohns: so you could have a package NET, and it would export socket-open and address-to-string etc... 07:40:36 pjb: or string:trim, char:name, integer:length. 07:41:06 sykopomp: I would avoid using a get- prefix for accessors and readers. 07:41:06 Yes, or that. But experience tends me to try not to have too many packages. 07:41:14 pjb: why not? 07:41:28 Too much bookkeeping. 07:41:42 pkhuong beats me to the punch again. :) Of course with "primitive" types like char, fine, but if I make a package that represents some new type, I would want to call it just name/trim/length, etc. The package already differentiates it 07:41:45 beach: I usually use accessors without get-, but I found a few people got confused when the accessor was the same name as the slot. 07:41:47 (:use :cl) is cool. You get everything for two words. 07:41:50 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:42:05 pjb: but the point of having string:trim, etc is that you don't need to :use any package. 07:42:10 and get- isn't that rare a practice, so I figure it's acceptable for the purposes. 07:42:14 sykopomp: then use name-of instead or something similar 07:42:21 jbjohns: my point. Don't define a package for a single type. Put several related types in a single package. 07:42:27 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:42:48 beach: is there anything particularly bad with get-*? 07:42:56 pkhuong: then, there's the problem of finding a package for functions with differently typed parameters... 07:42:58 I like name-of better though, but it seems to be along the same vein. 07:43:19 well, for example, in my net package. It only talks in sockets or socket streams. So no need to have a function called open-socket-stream. Open already opens a stream so it stands to reason (for me anyway) that net:open would open a stream relevant to the net package 07:43:42 jbjohns: is it a gray stream? 07:43:59 sykopomp: Most Lispers would consider (setf (get-...) ...) funny-looking (I know about gethash). 07:43:59 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:44:08 If (typep (net:open ...) 'cl:stream), then it'd be ok. 07:44:09 pjb: it's not a question of parameter type. A sequence package wouldn't have to only deal with sequences. 07:44:14 hrm, dunno yet. My "platform neutral" code only runs on SBCL atm and it uses there socket-stream function. :) 07:44:56 scalar:* matrix:* now, where do you put (scalar x matrix -> matrix) ? 07:45:50 pjb: if all the normal stream functions work on the stream net:open returns, isn't it ok then? 07:46:03 pjb: if you define scalars, it's to work with matrices. Why would you split the matrix-processing package in half? 07:46:30 My point. You would actually have matrix:scalar* matrix:* and matrix:scale. 07:47:02 pjb: sure, but not matrix:matrix-scalar*. 07:47:21 sykopomp: I would choose a variable name other than *syko* so that it looks less like the string representing the name. 07:47:39 sykopomp: like *me* or something like that. 07:47:42 sykopomp: and it would be less threatening... 07:47:49 hehehe yes 07:47:49 (psychotic) 07:49:14 sykopomp: if you think it is confusing to use the same name of the accessor and the slot, don't you also think it's confusing to use the same name for the parameter and the class: (person person) 07:50:04 beach: I think that's confusing, too. But the convention I adopted for my own code is something that makes people wince. 07:50:04 In Objective-C / Smalltalk we tend to use aString for the parameter name. Sometimes theString. 07:50:09 I wrap my class names with < > 07:50:19 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:50:19 ouch! 07:50:24 I don't like that either. 07:50:34 sykopomp: you can use (p person) which is fine for short methods. 07:50:46 sykopomp: and people recognize that style from math 07:51:09 beach: I'm trying to avoid really short variable names, too, since it's not very good style, either. 07:51:27 sykopomp: It is OK for short methods/functions. 07:51:48 sykopomp: anyway, great job! 07:52:28 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 07:52:40 beach: thank you for the comments, too! I'll try and figure out a way to incorporate them, I agree with them. 07:53:04 milanj [n=milan@93.86.189.140] has joined #lisp 07:53:08 <_3b> out of curiosity, is it preferres to rename the variable depending on type in each method, or keep a consistent name? (p person) -> (e employee) or (p employee) for example?) 07:53:57 I'd say depends on what the method does with the argument 07:54:31 has little to do with generics and methods per se, and everything to do with the actual code therein 07:55:30 sykopomp: dylan programmer? 07:55:42 <_3b> sykopomp: links to previous page (or index of some sort) would be nice 07:55:56 jbjohns: no. I accidentally misread the luvslides and thought Dylan was the name of some guy, so I adopted that convention. 07:56:06 and ended up liking it a lot. 07:56:14 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 07:56:16 :) 07:56:32 _3b: I'm gonna put it all in a proper page with a non-sucky stylesheet once the content's ready. Although I admit I know *nothing* of web stuff. 07:56:50 the convention makes sense for a single-namespace language 07:57:12 it looks ok when it's done everywhere, as in Dylan 07:57:47 cmm: I found it to be a pretty nice way to explicitely say 'this is a class'. It made method writing a lot clearer, too. 07:57:56 except when I started using builtin classes, and things got messy :P 07:58:41 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:48 howdy! 07:58:53 *_3b* thinks naming conventions are a sign of poor tools :) 07:59:24 sykopomp: it is always clear from the context that a symbol names a class, really. 07:59:59 _3b: I would love to name my variables like this <-- that's a single var 08:00:35 <_3b> sykopomp: doesn't sound unreasonable 08:01:17 I think naming conventions are the reason many people say scheme is so pretty and cl ugly. 08:01:17 <_3b> sykopomp: just need some editor support to make it readable (different colored spaced maybe) and easy to type 08:01:19 _3b: until you figure you have to parse the semantics of your code before you can even compile/interpret it. 08:01:53 jbjohns: I find 'lst' to be extremely ugly. 08:02:21 jbjohns: liking over CLASS is a slippery slope which leads to Perl :) 08:02:56 sykopomp: me too. I didn't say I agree with them, but I think that's the source of people saying it. i.e. in Scheme a mutating functions always has !. In CL, it has an n in it sometimes, etc. 08:03:05 symbolics still sells Macsyma for Windows. what lisp do you reckon in runs on? 08:03:10 <_3b> sykopomp: it can have an uglier but less ambiguous representation in the on-disk serialization format, but as long as the editor can show it nicely, that doesn't matter :) 08:03:34 cmm: I don't think that's very far from naming globals with *foo* 08:03:39 cmm: I don't use myself. I'm very much a "when in Rome" kind of person 08:05:05 <_3b> *foo* at least has the justification of lexical and special vars living in the same namespace... but i might argue that is a sign they shouldn't be 08:05:22 _3b: I disagree. Naming conventions are a time saver. Sort of like comments. If you write a comment that explains why you did something in a function, that's great. But if you (and I just had this in a project I inherited at work) open a database, and right above the call have things like "open the database", that really slows me down because I have to stop and think "wtf did they feel... 08:05:24 ...the need to comment this? What am I missing?" 08:06:41 likewise with naming conventions. If I read in my nice advanced editor and I see a symbol like --> colored as a variable, that will slow me way way down, because I'm going to be wondering what on earth is going on. Is my editor broken? Is that legal? etc. 08:06:42 <_3b> jbjohns: some of them... some are just to make up for poor tool support, like the (non-semantic) hungarian notation, using letter case to build separate namespaces, etc 08:06:52 _3b: marginally useful, http://www.international-lisp-conference.org/2005/media/carr-slides.pdf 08:07:46 <_3b> jbjohns: i think that is more of a 'don't be stupid' thing though :) if --> doesn't make sense in the application domain, don't use it for a var name (but if it does make sense, do use it) 08:07:57 _3b: Hungarian notation actually illistrates my point nicely. By putting in information into a function that's already provided by the editor, etc., it makes the code take longer to read 08:08:15 _3b: fair enough 08:09:08 and cmm, I'm not sure what you mean, but horrendous conventions (or lack thereof) are what led to brain damage like perl 08:09:09 -!- Adamant__ [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:10:46 <_3b> fusss: interesting 08:11:31 he shows he translates java constructs into prefix notation. i wouldn't dwell on his implementation of language semantics, however. 08:12:02 gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:24 -!- Zephtar [n=srusek@d62-185.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:16:33 -!- ebzzry__ [n=rmm@124.217.64.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:16:44 foo->bar is a pretty nice function name. 08:17:13 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:17:23 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.64.27] has joined #lisp 08:19:15 sykopomp: bar<-foo is better :) 08:19:33 I like lisp's flexibility with naming functions 08:19:45 beach: COMEFROM is also great compared to GOTO 08:19:51 <_3b> just make it foo<->bar, and convert either way depending on type :p 08:20:01 H4ns [n=hans@92.116.237.140] has joined #lisp 08:20:07 _3b: /me cries 08:21:33 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D37D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["quit"] 08:22:27 is there anyway to avoid typing repetitive slot specification like (foo :initarg :foo :accessor 'classname-`-foo :initform nil)? 08:23:03 fusss: write a macro around defmacro! 08:23:05 fusss: defclass* 08:23:08 *beach* hides 08:23:26 bad people you are 08:23:46 only give an initarg and an initform and an accessor if your slot really needs them 08:23:47 most don't 08:24:11 all my classes are have a persistant metaclass 08:24:16 darnit! 08:24:23 got it, never mind, please 08:30:08 <_3b> Krystof: by "most don't" do you mean need all 3, or need any? 08:37:40 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has joined #lisp 08:40:13 george__ [n=george@189.107.182.15] has joined #lisp 08:40:17 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:40:30 need some help with sicp ex 1.6 08:40:44 What happens when Alyssa attempts to use this to compute square roots? Explain. 08:43:17 <_3b> george__: what happens: someone gives a non-useful answer. explanation: you failed to provide enough context, so nobody knows what 'this' is 08:44:15 <_8david`> oh, the context is enough, but SICP is about Scheme, and this channel is about Common Lisp. 08:44:32 ok sorry 08:44:48 <_8david`> try #scheme perhaps 08:45:10 <_3b> (ah, didn't realize there was a list of exercises at the end of the contents, still would have been nice to say where 1.6 is so that isn't needed though) 08:45:12 <_8david`> unless 1.6 is in one of the early chapters that aren't related to any programming language at all, I forget 08:45:19 How can i make this code : (let ((s (gethash k *hash*)))(setf s 123)) .... to work ? 08:45:37 carbocalm: it works. 08:45:43 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-019-237.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Bye bye"] 08:46:14 <_3b> if you want to modify the contents of the hash, use (setf (gethash ...) new-value) 08:46:26 <_8david`> carbocalm: you could use symbol-macrolet instead of let 08:46:33 _3b: couldn't you let me have some fun first? 08:47:18 _8david: you're right, thanks 08:47:51 <_3b> carbocalm: note that he said 'could' not 'should' 08:48:11 carbocalm: It is important that you understand why your code didn't do what you expected it to. 08:49:41 hi folks. 08:50:04 hello dto 08:50:27 i'm considering writing one of those simple docstring-and-block-comment extractors for my lisp code, one which allows to outputs to emacs org-mode markup syntax (and then to whatever else.) 08:50:28 beach: actually, i don't understand, i know can do a setf-able function but i don't want to do a function for that 08:50:31 html, etc 08:50:56 carbocalm: do you know any other langauge like C? 08:51:05 beach: yes 08:51:28 carbocalm: what you do is equivalent to int x = a[i]; x = 234; 08:51:42 carbocalm: you wouldn't expect a[i] to change as a result of the last assignment. 08:51:55 carbocalm: similarly, your code changes the value of your local variable. 08:52:40 beach: ook. so x in your code is not like a pointer.... 08:52:53 thanks 08:52:59 No problem. 09:00:05 dto: you've seen edi's documentation generator, right? 09:00:55 no, do you have a link? 09:01:13 i was thinking of re-using some emacs lisp code i had written that analyzes and xrefs lisp/elisp code 09:01:19 http://www.weitz.de/documentation-template/ 09:01:41 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:01:41 you might be able to derive it straight out of this. This generates html web pages (like the one in that page) 09:01:48 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.115.224] has joined #lisp 09:03:15 hmm. only problem is, i want to generate org-mode markup because i can then generate whatever else (html, latex, plain text) 09:03:37 plus, i would like to be able to embed simple org markup into block comments/docstrings, because it's quite unobtrusive 09:03:41 dto: I only suggested it as a starting point :) 09:03:50 ah ok :) 09:04:28 this is my old program that i want to derive it from: http://dto.mamalala.org/notebook/golisp.html 09:05:06 <_8david`> dto: are you comfortable using and hacking work-in-progress code? 09:05:14 hmm, not always 09:05:26 that's the situation where i usually end up doing something myself 09:06:20 <_8david`> Okay. I'm asking because Nikodemus has recently changed the docstring extractor in SBCL to be a bit less monolithic. There's a documented CLOS representation of docstrings with markup in them. I'm currently trying to refactor that further into a portable library called parse-docstrings. 09:06:37 oh, that sounds cool. 09:06:41 well, keep me posted. 09:07:43 <_8david`> Ideally, the approach of parse-docstrings would be that you could just write a syntax plugin for you preferred markup syntax, and then use any existing HTML/whatever generation library with it. Or write your own org-mode-generation library and use with an existing docstring syntax. Or combine the above freely in another way. :-) 09:09:08 another thing is, i need it to grok the prototype defs and method defs of my custom object system 09:10:52 <_8david`> Okay, that's interesting. Do you have lisp objects representing your prototypes and methods? 09:12:11 <_8david`> We're basically replacing the Common Lisp function DOCUMENTATION (which returns a docstring) with a new function DOCUMENTATION* that returns a parsed CLOS thing. Like DOCUMENTATION, it takes the object and a doctype. 09:12:11 matley [n=matley@83.224.184.67] has joined #lisp 09:13:47 well i want my program to work for both elisp and common lisp source. which mostly don't have compatible readers. so i might actually end up extracting the docstrings using elisp and regexps. 09:13:52 which i know isn't "right" 09:14:24 i do have the appropriate lisp objects for methods etc 09:14:30 wow that's a cool idea re: documentation* 09:15:59 <_8david`> oh, I'm sure many people will complain about our use of docstrings, saying that they'd rather pull the strings out of comments, or an external file, so the whole regex thing isn't -that- absurd. Personally I'm just focusing on some infrastructure first, before following too many pipe dreams at once :-). 09:16:23 ;) 09:16:58 well i am writing some developer documentation for my roguelike, which is a hand-written tutorial with links to further docs, and it would be nice to be able to auto-generate the rest... http//dto.mamalala.org/notebook/developers-guide.html 09:17:21 brb 09:17:27 netaust1n [n=austinsm@72-254-136-53.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:24 dto: how long have you been working on rlx? :) 09:19:52 sykopomp: on and off for about 2 years 09:19:59 dto: gah. 09:20:02 sykopomp: really since childhood, but this is the modern incarnation 09:20:03 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:20:08 sykopomp: lots of real life intervened 09:20:29 it's finally close to alpha, to an actual real playable game 09:20:37 i just had to learn how to program lisp. 09:20:39 <_3b> do any of the testing libs let you specify tests without specifying reuslts, and let it tell you when the results change? 09:20:57 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:01 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@72-254-136-53.client.stsn.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:21:23 _3b: what? 09:21:56 _3b: You can do that with fiveam if you just run the functions first and assign values to variables, then run tests comparing those values. 09:22:12 dto: how did you find it? Writing a game in lisp, that is. 09:22:33 <_3b> sykopomp: would it save the values between runs for me, or do i have to do all that myself? 09:22:35 awesome 09:23:11 <_3b> sykopomp: i want to be able to just say test (+ 2 3) without having to specify that it should = 5 by hand 09:23:19 _3b: you could serialize the values with cl-store. But you can't really have permanence between sessions if you don't serialize ;. 09:23:42 <_3b> sykopomp: ok, so it doesn't do what i want then :( 09:24:06 _3b: I don't think you could have anything that has that level of DWIM, without lots of ugliness and wrongness. 09:24:21 sykopomp: i find writing anything easier in Common Lisp 09:24:40 _3b: how would it know what result you want it to have, after all? Maybe you should try writing something that tells you whether your program will stop running or not ;) 09:24:44 <_3b> sykopomp: no dwim... just run test, save result, then enxt time i run, tell me if it changed, and optionally save new value 09:25:02 _3b: oh, you mean without refreshing the lisp session? 09:25:18 <_3b> sykopomp: between sessions preferably 09:25:24 _3b: serialization 09:25:44 <_3b> the idea is that i proofread the results when they change (and not existing previously counts as a change) 09:25:46 you can probably write a pretty small amount of code around the regular testing stuff to do this. 09:26:18 closures + some stuff around an existing testing suite + serialization, sounds like it. 09:27:31 <_3b> for a more concrete example, i want to test code generation for my compiler, there isn't really a 'correct' answer, and i can't run it easily within the lisp, but if i know when it changes it is still helpful 09:28:21 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a16-090.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:28:50 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a61-177.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:28:53 <_3b> and i can potentially have an offline step whene i actually run the code to verify it when it does change, or i can read it and verify it by hand... but typing out 50 lines of opcodes to specify a 'correct' answer seems silly 09:29:11 <_3b> so i would just copy and paste it, which seems silly to do by hand too :) 09:29:54 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:30:21 sykopomp: why did you want to know how old rlx was 09:30:24 curious 09:30:24 <_3b> (and even in general, hand written tests are as likely as not to have the same bugs as the code, so i don't see the point there anyway) 09:32:12 dto: curiosity. And wondering how much I have ahead of me, still. 09:33:08 *_3b* needs more time, the compiler is already a few steps removed from the end goal, don't really want to add on a testing framework project to support the compiler :p 09:33:11 sykopomp: are you developing a game, i forget 09:33:29 dto: I'm working on an online text-based engine, yeah. 09:33:38 and I guess trying to build a few games with that, if it's ever done. 09:35:38 cool 09:35:56 is it you who posted on lisp-gamedev? 09:36:08 Ragnaroek [i=54a67b8c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-407b77cc54a22660] has joined #lisp 09:36:11 uhhh, I don't think so, no. 09:40:11 _8david`: sicp is NOT about scheme. It just happen to use that language for the exercises, but they've been translated. 09:40:17 minion: tell _8david` about sicp+ 09:40:18 _8david`: please look at sicp+: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs. HTML: , PDF: . Code in CL at , in other languages at . Videos at 09:43:34 <_8david`> pjb: yes, I misspoke. Mea culpa! 09:45:33 <_8david`> I've looked up the exercise in question though, and indeed it asks for a scheme function to be written, so I think that overall, my pointer to ask #scheme was warranted. 09:48:08 <_8david`> I invite george__ to come back and discuss the CL translation! :-) 09:49:30 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.115.224] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:50:15 <_3b> bah, stupid testing framework taking over my brain... i'm supposed to be implementing CATCH, or closures or something 09:52:13 <_3b> do any of the existing lisp test frameworks hook into emacs and/or slime in any meaningful way? 09:59:36 stefil 10:00:39 Zephtar [n=srusek@d62-185.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:01:39 _8david`: discuss what ? 10:02:10 <_8david`> george__: We'd be happy to discuss a Common Lisp implementation of SICP ex. 1.6! 10:02:53 _8david`: ehehe ... i have the results here ... 10:03:06 http://paste.lisp.org/display/72088 10:03:29 http://gist.github.com/35438 10:05:47 george__: do you know the answer? 10:06:01 beach: yes 10:06:07 good :) 10:06:11 do you know why? 10:06:38 beach: "cond" is a special form , and new-if is not 10:06:50 Right! Very good! 10:06:52 beach: so different rules of evaluation 10:07:13 *schme_* looks for ex. 1.6 10:08:06 <_8david`> weird, "git clone"able pastes 10:08:08 nom nom nom 10:08:45 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:08:53 beach: i have a doubt about what would be evaluated first ? the "else clausure", the "then clausure" or "predicate" ? 10:11:43 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:11:43 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit ["Quit"] 10:11:45 george__: In Scheme, the order of evaluation between function areguments is not defined, but in Common Lisp it is always left-to-right, so predicate would be evaluated first, then then-clause, and finally else-clause. They would all be evaluated before new-if is called. 10:12:25 *arguments 10:13:59 beach: but in special form "if" , how would be the evaluation? 10:14:47 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.189.140] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:14:52 george__: First the predicate would be evaluated, then depeding on whether its value is true or false, either the then-clause or the else-clause would be evaluated, but not both. 10:15:05 ok thanks 10:20:56 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 10:23:29 mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:26:43 george__: The way to check that is to look in the Common Lisp HyperSpec: 10:26:46 clhs if 10:26:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_if.htm 10:28:18 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:32:51 haqe43 [n=lucius@host86-139-102-44.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:36:49 crod [n=cmell@cb8ac8-191.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:37:36 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:46 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a61-177.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:39:13 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-068-016-134-023.sip.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:56 hi, im new to lisp. when starting slime in emacs i get this error: Searching for program: no such file or directory, lisp 10:40:16 what do I need to do? 10:40:22 haqe43: did you follow the installation instructions for SLIME? 10:40:26 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:40:35 haqe43: what Lisp system did you install? 10:40:59 beach: hold, on brb 10:41:02 -!- haqe43 [n=lucius@host86-139-102-44.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["leaving"] 10:41:09 huh 10:41:22 haqe43 [n=lucius@host86-139-102-44.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:41:45 im on debian. I have cl-swank and clisp and slime packages installed 10:41:52 anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has joined #lisp 10:42:12 Hej S11001001. How are things? 10:42:25 haqe43: your SLIME seems to be looking for a program called `lisp'. You probably need to give it a different name. Perhaps `clisp'? 10:42:42 haqe43: The SLIME install instructions should tell you how to do that. 10:43:58 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@174-148-118-163.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:46 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 10:46:46 beach: thanks, ill read through the docs 10:49:01 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:49:22 mulander [n=user@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 10:51:15 ak70 [n=user@195.158.102.15] has joined #lisp 10:51:18 -!- haqe43 [n=lucius@host86-139-102-44.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:52:07 good afternoon 10:53:15 hey nikodemus 10:56:00 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-30-122.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 10:56:21 just neat tcr 10:56:56 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-068-016-134-023.sip.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:57:01 had a meeting with the client for hfsbo.com yesterday, they love it; it includes named-readtables :) 10:58:11 haqe43 [n=lucius@host86-139-102-44.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:02:36 ice_four [n=ice_four@host217-43-8-66.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:03:18 -!- ice_four [n=ice_four@host217-43-8-66.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:04:01 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:05:58 can someone who uses slime help me set it up ? 11:06:24 haqe43: Where is your lisp implementation? 11:06:44 haqe43: you can use M-x shell RET which clisp RET which sbcl RET 11:08:57 Then you can put the path you find in the emacs variable inferior-lisp-program: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/opt/local/bin/clisp -ansi -q -K full -m 32M -I -Efile ISO-8859-15 -Epathname UTF-8 -Eterminal UTF-8 -Emisc UTF-8 -Eforeign ISO-8859-1") ; for example. 11:09:00 /usr/bin/clisp sbcl is not installed (installing now) 11:09:42 So, put: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/bin/clisp -ansi -q -K full -I -E ISO-8859-1") ; in your ~/.emacs 11:10:37 Just out of curiousity here, but why the -E ISO-8859-1 ? 11:11:15 iso-8859-1 has good properties for a default: it's a 1-1 encoding. 11:11:22 g000001` [n=user@ha162.opt2.point.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:11:33 Then we can refine the encodings, depending on the OS, file system, files, emacs configuration, etc. 11:11:42 -!- g000001` [n=user@ha162.opt2.point.ne.jp] has left #lisp 11:11:57 Hmm... 11:12:13 I thought utf-8 was a good default. But then I never thought about it very much :) 11:12:28 g000001 [n=g000001@ha162.opt2.point.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:12:43 haqe43: you only need one 11:12:48 There are byte sequences that are illegal in utf-8. 11:13:58 Oh wow. Maybe that is why clisp is being a pain in the arse for me at times :) 11:14:04 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 11:14:08 Quite possible, yes. 11:14:10 -!- g000001 [n=g000001@ha162.opt2.point.ne.jp] has left #lisp 11:14:52 "DIRECTORY: Invalid byte sequence #xF6 #x63 #x6B #x65 in CHARSET:UTF-8 conversion" is what I get whan I fire it up ;) 11:15:14 Sure. Your system doesn't use utf-8 for the file names. 11:15:58 Hoh, that's dumb though. 11:15:59 :) 11:16:07 (ext:convert-string-from-bytes #( #xF6 #x63 #x6B #x65) charset:iso-8859-1) --> "öcke" ; looks like iso-8859-1 to me. 11:16:25 Seems about right. 11:16:33 Tends to turn up as ? in my xterm. 11:16:38 schme_: the problem is that unix doesn't care the encoding of the file system. you could have in the same directory file names with different encodings. 11:16:55 Hoh. That's less neat. 11:17:02 MacOSX uses normalized utf-8. 11:17:05 fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.113.169] has joined #lisp 11:17:15 But in a Terminal, you could store another encoding. 11:17:23 You just have to be careful. 11:17:34 bunnies \o/ http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9464/renderbwh2.png 11:17:40 And beware of nfs mounts across different OSes. 11:17:45 so even on the OS X if I fire up vim in a terminal and save it off.. maybe it's some bizarre encoding? 11:18:00 wh--what? 11:18:03 bunnies?.... 11:18:24 madnificent: Some lisp thing to generate 'em? 11:18:25 the final images of the raytracer I had to build :) 11:18:38 glas bunnies with shadows and all :) very nice! 11:18:43 schme_: yes yes, otherwise I wouldn't have the guts to paste them here 11:19:20 glass even. 11:19:29 madnificent: Now make 'em jump around :P 11:19:36 schme_: it's possible. On MacOSX, you would set the LC_* environment variables in your ~/.bashrc specifying the utf-8 encoding. 11:19:58 hmm.. 11:20:28 Right. like on the linux. I guess it's my emacs that saves stuff off in some other format :) 11:20:40 it is still horribly slow and the code isn't really to look at, but I DO have post-image filters (which took me a whole line of code (apparantly only very expensive raytracers have that feature ?!)) and codeable environments (but they're not nice to work in, because the code must be put inside a tag and xmls doesn't parse a double quote then) 11:20:45 schme_: :D 11:20:54 export LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8 # for example 11:21:24 schme_: yes, emacs you can configure it from ~/.emacs 11:21:35 well. from init.el anyway ;) 11:21:47 or maybe it is vim. hrmm. 11:21:52 -!- mulander [n=user@nat-4.interq.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:21:53 *schme_* shrugs. It's all good anyway. 11:22:25 pjb pasted "emacs encodings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72089 11:22:28 This is what I use. 11:23:10 Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 11:23:12 Oh I see I have LANG set. 11:23:12 (but I should probably switch to utf-8 on my linux systems since I share the volumes..) 11:23:19 and no LC_nothing 11:23:35 schme_: could do too. man locale, etc. 11:24:05 lol 11:24:05 oh ya. that's all the utf-8 11:24:20 Piranha__: go to sleep 11:24:22 I suppose I created this one file *before* I set the emacsen to utf-8 :) 11:24:47 madnificent: It's very impressive stuff :) 11:24:50 Discuss DNS and I might. 11:25:07 lol 11:25:09 morning 11:25:21 Hi. 11:26:41 so... how about that DNS? 11:26:50 schme_: thanks, sadly it is too slow (and I have a stack overflow on one of the things I should be able to raytrace (but attila has created a patch for sbcl, I might try that) 11:27:03 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:27:16 Did you know that you can't set a CNAME for second-level domain names? 11:27:26 pretty annoying, yeah 11:27:55 So, I don't suppose there's any work in progress for SB-BSD-SOCKETS IPv6 support, is there? 11:28:15 I haven't found anything, and I'm fully prepared to jump in and get almost nothing done on it before giving up. 11:28:19 madnificent: good job! 11:28:45 i'm still bemoaning the fall of HINFO records 11:29:12 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@174-148-118-163.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:30:27 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@dhcp-47251.stud.phys.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 11:30:50 I know, if dns isn't meant to be used to store network-irrelevant information about the hosts it references, what is it for? 11:30:50 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm158.epsilon100.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:31:12 Wikipedia entries. 11:31:13 madnificent: Maybe you can abuse the cuda stuff to speed it all up once tha amazing cl-cuda thingie shows up :) 11:31:50 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm158.epsilon100.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 11:32:00 schme_: cuda? 11:32:12 -!- H4ns [n=hans@92.116.237.140] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:32:21 madnificent: it's the nvidia thingie for loading stuffs into the GPU for speedy processing :) 11:32:27 oh yeah right 11:32:42 someone was talking about a cl library for it. 11:32:43 schme_: I'd be more than happy if they'd release amd64 freebsd drivers -_- 11:32:59 that would be perfect for a raytracer! 11:33:06 <_3b> clopencl would be more fun (or at least have more repetition of 'cl' :) 11:33:44 _3b: and then it wouldn't only include cuda! (which is only nvidia, opencl is an open standard) 11:33:45 (:nicknames #|:cl this does not work for some reason|#) 11:34:22 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:23 <_3b> madnificent: that too, but i only have NV hardware atm, so not as high priority :) 11:34:43 what about ati ? do they use opencl ? 11:34:46 george__: yes 11:35:04 <_3b> theoretically it should work on nv, amd/ati, intel 11:35:07 I have nvidia and I'd rather anyone wanting to use gpgpu wait for opencl 11:35:51 <_3b> waiting seems silly, but porting once it is viable would probably be for the best 11:36:01 does ati become more competitive ? 11:36:09 when would this porting happen? 11:36:21 with open source drivers 11:37:41 i heard the ati drivers are not good yet 11:37:55 _3b: nvidia supports opencl too! it is really a standard that could work 11:38:33 george__: if it weren't for ati, we wouldn't be having these sweet prices for graphics cards 11:38:35 <_3b> madnificent: yeah, my main point is just that it isn't out yet, so better to start coding now :) 11:39:41 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.64.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:39:52 _3b: isn't it? Perhaps not on linux (but even here), but nvidia has drivers that support it allready (at least I thought a comment on /. noted that) 11:40:01 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.64.27] has joined #lisp 11:40:14 _3b: anyways, if you'd build anything like that, I'd be keen to porting the raytracer to there 11:40:14 madnificent: i agree ... ati is more agressive than before 11:40:21 <_3b> madnificent: ah, in that case, use it now (didn't think they were out yet, but haven't been watching closely) 11:40:37 madnificent: did you see phenon II ? 11:40:59 it will encompass a rewrite, so you can create the bindings in whatever (lispy) way 11:41:12 george__: phenon ? 11:41:25 *_3b* isn't working on cuda or opencl stuff currently, hope to get to it at some point if whoever was talking about it the other day doesn't finish it though 11:41:30 _3b: I'll search for it :) 11:41:30 madnificent: is ati response for intel core i7 11:41:51 george__: oh phenoM ;) 11:42:18 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 11:42:41 yes, I've got an 9850 (which is a phenom 1) in this system, given the fact that the phenom II is way ahead of this, it could be very nice 11:42:43 *sykopomp* wishes he knew how to do anything with graphics. 11:43:23 the problem with the phenom 1 is the power consumption (but really only when working! the chip is capable of scaling back to 400Mhz (and even lower)) 11:43:33 I took a graphics class in college; was most confusing 11:43:39 <_3b> i need a new gfx card before i play with gpgpu stuff, original 8800s don't do everything i wanted :( 11:43:46 the best part for me was designing a scene description language 11:44:01 S11001001: highest level math I've taken is Calc II, which I failed out of. 11:44:25 george__: I did get one that clocks good, pushing it over 3Ghz wasn't a problem whatsoever (I only did that for testing) 11:44:29 <_3b> sykopomp: if you can figure out matrix x vector multiplication, you should be OK for graphics 11:44:41 well I'm not quite as bad off it then sykopomp :) 11:45:06 madnificent: hehe 11:45:18 _3b: that's a pretty big if. I don't really know much about how to do that. I took Calc I this summer, and I hadn't taken any math since pre-calc in high school before that. 11:45:27 sykopomp: I have a book here that explains whatever you need to know about it (for graphics purposes that is). It is fairly good (most of it is gfx though, it isn't really a matrix-book) 11:45:30 I barely remember anythnig having to do with trigonometry. 11:45:35 madnificent: name? 11:46:07 sykopomp: ISBN-1-56881-269-8 11:46:29 http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Computer-Graphics-Second-Ed/dp/1568812698/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1229168781&sr=11-1 ? 11:46:45 yes 11:47:13 you don't need to have the last edition though. It is what I have used to build the raytracer 11:47:38 built a very slow raytracer in python for a Calc III project :) 11:47:54 S11001001: slow is a feature of mine too! 11:48:18 don't be ashamed. Comments are apparently a feature of Ruby. 11:48:18 madnificent: do you use opengl with lisp ? 11:48:34 nope 11:48:43 george__: it wasn't allowed either 11:48:46 *_3b* uses opengl with lisp 11:48:49 madnificent: oh? what'd you use? 11:48:58 george__: by all accounts, cl-opengl seems to be an A+ library. 11:49:08 sykopomp: bare cpu computing power -_- 11:49:23 madnificent: no wonder it's slow. You're not even using the graphics card :( 11:49:49 madnificent: did you have fun with the ray tracer, though? 11:50:06 therefore, porting it to clopencl would be fun :D 11:51:04 madnificent: You could do opengl first ;p 11:51:18 (bindings for opencl are probably a ways off) 11:51:25 sykopomp: not really actually. I don't really like to work on graphics, but the professor was the one that showed me that computer sciences was not only existant in my imagination. So I somewhat felt I had to follow the class. In the end, if you code it nicely (which I didn't), it can be very rewarding 11:51:46 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:51:48 sykopomp: why opengl first? (I don't even have support for it on freebsd ;_;) 11:52:12 madnificent: freebsd doesn't support opengl? That's complete news to me. That can't be right... 11:52:28 <_3b> sykopomp: wouldn't expect bindings to be far off, but nice lispy bindings might take a while 11:52:31 sykopomp: it does but there's no binary driver for amd64 from nvidia 11:52:38 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 11:53:04 madnificent: oh. Yeah, 64-bit OSes are a bit tricky without proper support. 11:53:18 madnificent: That sounds ok with the lack. the x86-64 linux driver doesn't work on x86-64 with certain supported video cards :) 11:53:26 they lie! 11:53:33 That's what brought me back to a 32-bit linux kernel after playing with amd64. Then again, things are looking really bright on the 64-bit linux front, so I might switch over soon. 11:53:52 schme_: is that so! 11:53:55 <_3b> 64bit linux drivers seemed to work OK last time i tried 11:54:01 sykopomp: they did support x86. IMHO that is very very very lame and I will NOT buy anything from nvidia untill they give better support. My 690sli chipset is somewhat borked as well (but that is broken by design, not by support) 11:54:25 sykopomp: does cl-opengl have a good benchmark ? 11:54:30 madnificent: I've sort of figured I'm gonna buy ATi cards from now on, unless nvidia opens up. 11:54:33 sykopomp: Yeees. I have an officially supported nvidia card, I tried the x86-64 linux, several distros too. fire up X and BAM! screen goes black. And I have to reboot. 11:54:57 george__: what do you mean? They're opengl bindings. You can run the examples, I guess, and see how things go. 11:55:26 george__: but really, it's just a bunch of symbols and parens and macros slapped on top of cffi 11:55:35 <_3b> george__: cl-opengl can run pretty fast on a good native compiling lisp (but then again perl and python GL bindings can run pretty fast, depending on how you use it :) 11:55:51 another briliant project: moving the drivers to X11 borked the 2d acceleration of the other graphics card in my computer, so one screen is running purely on cpu-power (it is okay, unless you try to scroll in a window o_O) 11:56:37 _3b: is there an very very very simple introduction to cl-opengl? So I can scratch the surface and see if I could port the bottlenecks to there? 11:56:38 sykopomp: i think lisp would be a good language to build a game ... you have ease with AI, Scripts , Good speed , Good stream 11:56:55 george__: and above all, superior coders! 11:56:57 ;) 11:57:04 madnificent: eheheh 11:57:11 george__: there are some efforts being made on this front. Check out lispbuilder-sdl for some excellent sdl bindings. 11:57:14 madnificent: one day i would ! 11:57:32 dto is also just about ready to alpha his roguelike (at least I think that's what he said) 11:57:43 sykopomp: ok 11:57:54 sykopomp: have you ever heard about nasty dog ? 11:58:05 I'd like to do game-devolopment in lisp... I built part of the backend for a game yesterday (together with a friend of mine) 11:58:12 george__: Naughty Dog, you mean, and GOAL? 11:58:20 <_3b> madnificent: not really unfortunately :( someone started writing some, but not sure it got very far 11:58:22 sykopomp: LOL 11:58:30 george__: ND's GOAL is closed source! 11:58:48 I also think we can abstract things better. 11:59:00 GOAL is pretty far from lisp, actually. I say some sample code. 11:59:06 madnificent: sony have bought ND 11:59:21 george__: they also stopped using GOAL after being bought out by sony, last I checked. 11:59:43 madnificent: GOAL used a lot of inlining of assembly code, too, which is a bit scary. 11:59:50 george__: which was why they dropped lisp for some time (they are using it again, I read) 12:00:05 <_3b> well, GOAL is arguably a DSL for writing assembly, so that makes sense :) 12:00:37 ND had a superior engine compared with the most games in that time 12:00:57 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5acc02b3.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 12:01:09 george__: we're pretty familiar with GOAL and ViaWeb around these parts, for the most part. 12:01:24 *schme_* isn't. 12:01:30 schme_: really? 12:01:33 the abstractions you can make by using macros, make the optimized ASM code much easier to use throughout your code, thus giving you more cycles to waste on other stuff :) 12:01:35 No what on earth is that? 12:01:38 *sykopomp* assumed too much. Apologizes. 12:01:54 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178042225.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:02:03 Yes. I am "the most part" bwahahaha 12:02:09 schme_: GOAL = Game Oriented Assembly Lisp. It's a lisp dialect developed by Naughty Dog, the people that made Crash Bandicoot and the Jak series of video games. 12:02:15 <_3b> madnificent: ah, found the tutorial i was thinking about: http://cmalune.wordpress.com/ 12:02:17 schme_: secret alien lisp code! it is secret! 12:02:26 sykopomp: Ok. Never heard of them or the games :) 12:02:33 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:02:34 oh secret alien lisp code. That's great :) 12:02:43 schme_ must be a which, burn him! 12:02:51 schme_: They built it on top of Allegro, and it had some bleeding edge performance, and really fast (and pleasant) development. For the time. 12:02:56 Yes. I turned you into a newt. 12:02:59 -!- andrea1 [n=andreas@p579F88E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:03:03 sykopomp: That's cool. 12:03:06 burn him after I've learned to spell -_- 12:03:11 then again, keep in mind that the games industry is almost universally composed of C++ programmers (at that level, the AAA-game people) 12:03:11 mulligan [n=user@e178042225.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:03:24 so really, you could throw befunge at those poor people and they'll be happier. 12:03:34 sykopomp: I'll take your word for that. I know nothing of tha gayme industry :) 12:03:49 andreas [n=andreas@p579F8A76.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:53 schme_: just know that they worship C++ as their One True God. 12:03:59 Great. 12:04:01 H4ns [n=hans@92.116.234.119] has joined #lisp 12:04:12 _3b: reading it right now 12:04:17 <_3b> sykopomp: half of 'em have probably greenspunned up a befunge out of template stuff by accident already anyway 12:04:37 _3b: who said it was an accident? This is a feature, not a bug. 12:04:46 sykopomp: I've probably told it a million times, but the questions I received when asking if I could make the raytracer in lisp, were staggering 12:04:55 template Turing completeness was an accident AFAIK. 12:05:02 ^ C++ 12:05:03 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:05:08 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.64.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:05:29 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.64.27] has joined #lisp 12:05:31 <_3b> sykopomp: not being an accident implies some sort of planning or intent :) 12:06:06 Ok my conclusion is that you're all a bit crazy. 12:06:11 madnificent: I find there's a few big obstacles to people jumping into lisp. Not the least being complete and utter ignorance about the language (couple with complete and utter refusal to have accessible explanations) 12:06:23 <_3b> schme_: that is an important qualification for the games industry 12:06:26 sykopomp: you're solving them 12:06:27 :) 12:06:45 To me it seems that a lot of people avoid lisp because "It is not C/C++, so it is slow". 12:06:46 madnificent: I don't know if I am. I'm really just suggesting ideas. 12:06:58 But somehow python is ok. 12:06:59 hey i have read something in slashdot about functional programming that is really interesting 12:07:11 george__: Ya? 12:07:28 <_3b> the multi core = functional thing? 12:07:30 sykopomp: I pasted the first part of the tutorial in a local channel. At least one is reading it, another (non-coder) is going to look into it because I'm using it anyways. And I am certain that two others will use it too. They have explicitly asked me for resources like that in the past 12:07:33 functional programming has a better future in multi cores programming 12:07:40 _3b: yes 12:07:41 madnificent: I spent hours tonight re-reading (with new goggles) through the classic 'lisp sucks' texts (Yegge's retarded, completely uninformed posting, and the subsequent c.l.l. flamewar) 12:08:06 george__: Though it seems to me that fortran and C with the openmp seem to be wonderful for multicorery. 12:08:22 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:08:22 I guess it depends on what yer doing. 12:08:25 madnificent: that's flattering. The tutorial is in flux right now. I'm not very happy with the way I'm explaining some things. 12:08:51 and that there fortress. 12:08:55 madnificent: I'm also thinking where to take it. I already feel I've committed to teaching a bit beyond 'say hello to lisp'. I might try and get them to implement a little game or something. 12:08:58 schme_: c++ is imperative ... is hard to distribute the computation ... in lisp the program has the shape of a tree 12:09:00 *_3b* still likes the paper that talked about automatically parallelizing recursion using the y combinator 12:09:07 sykopomp: I was trying to get that editor load a lisp-file but I couldn't get it to do that. Perhaps it would be nice if there were some links throughout the page for trouble-shooting. Just like footnotes, but on separate pages. That would allow for extra info to be given where handy 12:09:20 schme_: so each branch could be set to a processor 12:09:20 george__: Yes. Still openmp makes parallelism with C and fortran easy as easy stuff. 12:09:45 madnificent: what do you mean load a lisp file? (load "something.lisp")? Or load it into a new 'buffer'? 12:09:46 schme_: but thing about dozens of processors 12:09:53 george__: Yes. 12:09:54 sykopomp: I'm not a good writer, but if I can help you in any way (like trying to write a stub about an article), I'd be more than glad to 12:10:18 <_3b> xappings are a close second to parallel y combinators for fun brain exercise though :) 12:10:27 madnificent: you could certainly throw ideas my way, correct the blatant errors, or think of simple things people might be interested in learning to do. 12:10:33 sykopomp: in lisp... apparantly it didn't load it (perhaps it couldn't find a package or something, but it didn't show me an error either) 12:10:36 george__: I'm not sure how lisp == functional programming :) 12:10:52 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:10 madnificent: it's possible that it needs an absolute path (ugh) 12:11:14 schme_: in the rawest basis, it is... fortunately it is so flexible that it may follow any paradigm 12:11:31 george__: Though erlang is a bit functionalish, and it seems to handle distribution way good. I'm not convinced that is actually caused by the functionalness :) 12:11:33 sykopomp: I used the interface to load it through.. (file open something something) 12:11:39 madnificent: Well I'm talking CL here, of course :) 12:11:47 madnificent: yeah, I just tried that. It seems to have worked. 12:12:01 schme_: one day i will try erlang 12:12:03 and it seems to have loaded the symbols fine, too. 12:12:15 I'll try it agani in the future... it wasn't my computer 12:12:31 george__: It's kinda fun. (: 12:12:37 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-61518a975725bffe] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:12:46 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 12:13:00 I should really go to sleep 12:13:02 7am :P 12:13:12 schme_: have you ever heard about mozart ? the language 12:13:37 schme_: OZ is how they call it 12:13:40 the key to automatic multi core distribution is side effect freeness. common lisp is not side effect free. 12:13:47 george__: Nope. 12:14:20 schme_: is like ALL paradigms ... 12:14:26 I think this Fortress language seems interesting for the parallelism though. 12:14:27 Ok. 12:14:39 george__: So what's it good for? ;) 12:15:19 schme_: ehehe academic learning 12:15:59 schme_: you see all things in one language. Peter Norvig recommends 12:15:59 oh yum 12:17:02 H4ns: so do you thing lisp will not be good for paralleling computation ? 12:17:22 george__: common lisp is not particularily suitable, no. 12:17:22 george__: This looks interesting. I need to bookmark this, thanks :) 12:18:03 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:18:07 george__: if you are interested in a lisp that is good for parallel programming, look at clojure 12:18:14 george__: it is discussed in #clojure 12:18:19 <_3b> *lisp and cmlisp are good for data parallel computing, clojure does some interesting multi core stuff 12:18:24 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 12:18:27 _3b: is that your tutorial (that you gave me about cl)? 12:18:31 _3b: "are good for" haha 12:18:55 <_3b> H4ns: well, better than most other lisps at least :) 12:18:58 _3b: when the connection machine existed, like two decades ago, they were good. 12:19:00 Does clojure handle distribution nicely? Or is it just one the one machine? 12:19:08 I guess I should ask #clojure 12:19:08 heh 12:19:13 schme_: it does not try to address distribution. 12:19:42 <_3b> H4ns: any particular reasons they would be bad now? (from the user side, obviously the implementations would need replaced) 12:19:48 oh ok. 12:20:04 schme_: i'm not that impressed by erlangs distribution mechanisms either. 12:20:04 _3b: they are bad now because they cannot be used. 12:20:12 what about lisp machine ? 12:20:25 H4ns: Right. I'm looking for something nicer meself. :) 12:20:31 <_3b> H4ns: cuda looks like it could do a reasonable imitation of a connection machine 12:21:08 george__: it is dead, and it was not multi core either. 12:21:35 <_3b> similar interaction model even, host running real lisp, compiling data paralell code to run on the dedicated hardware 12:21:41 H4ns: is it possible to multicore a lisp machine ? 12:21:43 _3b: cuda? never heard of it. a modern graphics card may also be a nice target for *lisp :) 12:21:51 george__: no. and it is not functional either 12:22:06 <_3b> H4ns: cuda is nvidias API for programming their gfx cards outside of a gfx api :) 12:22:15 george__: lisp machines ran zeta lisp, which is a predecessor of common lisp. 12:22:24 _3b: ah, cool. yeah! 12:22:26 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5acc02b3.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 12:22:33 _3b: that'd make a cool project for someone. 12:22:42 H4ns: best language for paralelization ? 12:22:44 <_3b> H4ns: my graphics card is too old to completely map to one, or i'd have started trying already :) 12:23:01 george__: i don't know what "best" means. look at clojure. 12:23:20 <_3b> H4ns: specifically, it can't do the logic ops to combine paralell writes to a single location, which was added later in the 8xxx series 12:23:24 george__: That all depends on what your doing with it, me thinks :) Best varies (: 12:24:44 george__: If your use case is just crunching matrices.. maybe clojure, or parallel prolog, or whatnot is not the best thing to use :) 12:25:01 now time to fix some food! 12:25:17 H4ns: i think lisp will be good in multi core envinroment because lisp could assimilate the "best practices" of the other languages implementations 12:25:18 schme_: for crunching matrices, i'd recommend openmp and c/c++/fortran 12:25:25 H4ns: Me too. 12:25:43 H4ns: and I guess adding that cuda thing in there some how :) 12:26:16 <_3b> yeah, cuda can do some fun stuff 12:26:33 <_3b> especially if you have a few $10k to spend on one of the big tesla boxes :) 12:26:35 george__: best practices for this kind of thing seems to be making stuff not-mutable. So that will be a bit of a bugger :) 12:26:47 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:27:01 Hmm.. I think they had some high performing top something really fast machine on slashdot just yesterday.. using a lot of gfx cards. 12:27:46 *schme_* pops off. 12:28:53 when I try (xmls:parse "(lambda (a b) (format T "formatting ~A~A" a b))"), I get an error saying value "quot;" is not of type (simple-array base-char (*)) any ideas as to what the solution to that error could be (or is it an error in xmls?) 12:29:02 tsubame 12:29:10 <_3b> looks like the current tesla stuff is claiming 4tflop/1u, so shouldn't be too hard to build a super computer out of that :) 12:30:02 "The graphics chips are contained in 170 Nvidia Tesla S1070 rack-mount units that have been slotted in between the Sun systems. Each of the 1U Nvidia systems has four GPUs inside, each of which has 240 processing cores for a total of 960 cores per system." 12:30:23 perfect for nethack. 12:30:40 <_3b> nah, reallly high res quake :p 12:30:56 hehehe 12:31:05 <3 perfect for my raytracer! 12:31:34 <_3b> wow, thats enough for 1 core/pixel at about VGA res 12:31:48 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:32:02 _3b: so, that'll give us like 10e5 frames per second? 12:32:12 gpu cores are not equivalent to cpu cores 12:32:33 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-355f9547095536d8] has joined #lisp 12:33:04 <_3b> xristos: ok, a few gflop per pixel at vga res, for more meaningful numbers :p 12:33:21 yeah but thats nothing since its not general purpose 12:33:34 you still have to program specifically for cuda 12:34:00 <_3b> i think if you are going to play quake on a computer that size/cost, custom programming won't be an obstacle 12:39:14 mulligan` [n=user@85.178.42.225] has joined #lisp 12:41:25 esdentem [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:41:30 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:43:37 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.184.67] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:45:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:45:45 _3b: apparantly, I don't have cffi? (sbcl) 12:45:46 _zenon_ [n=x@dhcp-192-66.nomad.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 12:47:41 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:48:48 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.64.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:49:07 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.64.27] has joined #lisp 12:49:07 -!- esdentem is now known as esden 12:49:39 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:52 <_3b> madnificent: most of the .asd installing things should be able to install it for you, or get it from http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/ 12:51:12 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:51:39 scode2 [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 12:51:45 -!- scode2 [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Client Quit] 12:52:51 yangsx [n=yangsx@221.221.242.241] has joined #lisp 12:53:46 i'm hosed. just did "telinit 1" on a remote box :-( 12:54:02 <_3b> thats what remote console is for :p 12:54:18 it can has no remote console 12:54:37 <_3b> thats what remote admins' pagers are for then :/ 12:55:03 yeah, just not til monday 12:55:54 i'm gonna start using different background colors for xterm/putty boxes open to different boxes 12:56:07 fusss: That's wise 12:56:09 <_3b> sounds like a good idea 12:56:21 how can i remove every other element of a list ? 12:56:30 I did that even when I had only two boxes. Different colors for root/non-root and per box 12:56:46 carbocalm: Why being so destructive? :) 12:57:11 prejudice against the odd, i guess ;-) 12:57:50 ugh. actually i need a second list constructed from the first one... 12:58:18 <_3b> (loop for i in list by #'cddr collect i)? 12:58:36 cool! i knew i've seen it somewhere. Thanks. 12:59:00 I recall vaguely some verb that has a similiar meaning as "to make obsolete", but I can't get it from my subconscious into my mind 12:59:11 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:59:11 <_3b> deprecate? 12:59:13 carbocalm: if loop is to advanced, you can make your own slow, consy versions around NTH/NTHCDR or whatever. 12:59:17 it sounds similiar to obfuscate, I think 12:59:29 deprecate 12:59:37 phase-out 12:59:44 EOL 12:59:47 it's not so much "make obsolete", but more "make redundant" 13:00:27 i never know the difference between "obviate" and "alleviate" 13:00:39 not alleviate, the other one 13:00:44 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-30-122.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has left #lisp 13:00:57 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit ["restart client to get my status window back :("] 13:00:58 obviate may be it, perhaps it was also diminish 13:01:02 scode_ [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 13:01:03 thanks 13:01:08 tcr: obviate 13:01:35 -!- scode_ is now known as scode 13:02:11 fusss: i'm fine with loop, thank you. It's just too much loop-y stuff to digest at once. 13:02:36 fusss: alleviate is more like mitigate than obviate :) 13:03:41 you can correct my english but you can't correct my Dixie! Soudern' by the grace by god :-P 13:06:57 clhs do 13:06:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_do.htm 13:07:00 vasa [n=vasa@mm-239-91-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 13:07:24 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:06 dkcl [n=dkcl@234.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:12:34 carbocalm: The LOOP form is the preferred idiom, but you could also use (let ((i 1)) (remove-if #'(lambda (_) (evenp (shiftf i (1+ i)))) list)) 13:12:50 tcr: hello trit Tweiler :) 13:14:53 what in the world is that underscore doing there? deliberate obfuscation or do i smell ML envy? 13:15:17 for that matter, what's that #' doing there? 13:15:26 cltl1 envy? 13:15:44 hey, i still use that! 13:15:56 yeah, but tcr knows what he's doing 13:16:03 ouch 13:17:05 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:43 <_3b> why not (shiftf i (not i)) and skip the 1 and evenp? 13:18:44 _3b: neato!! 13:19:23 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-162-9.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:19:33 <_3b> or (evenp (incf i)) 13:19:37 fusss: in reality he would have to write #'(lambda (e) (declare (ignore e) ...) but that would have obfuscated the code. 13:20:35 _3b: That's not the same, you'd have to initialize i to 0, and then it would not be as readable. 13:20:38 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@221.221.242.241] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:20:54 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:21:06 <_3b> tcr: was it specified which 'every other element' to remove? :) 13:22:14 <_3b> you could use oddp, or remove-if-not instead of changing the 1 though 13:22:48 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:22:59 the point of the code was to be read as "remove every even-positioned element" 13:25:36 -!- Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has left #lisp 13:27:33 mornin 13:29:44 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:32:44 (OT: http://stopsoftwarepatents.eu) 13:33:47 activism is of no use' EU is driven by corporate profits 13:33:52 s/'/l/ 13:33:55 s/'/;/ 13:34:17 just about as every other part of the west 13:34:46 It's off topic, let's not discuss it here. 13:34:54 (like every other part of the world) 13:35:12 that may somewhat be incorrect 13:35:43 we went there when it was first to be voted about... 13:36:10 there was one bus from flanders and several others from different countries to show how coders felt about it 13:36:56 Right. 13:37:22 But how does the majority feel about it? ;) 13:37:22 the proposal of software patents was virtually accepted (due to lobbying of companies like philips), but the end vote came against software patents 13:38:01 I don't know the majority :P 13:41:37 ... /me glances at his philips speakers and philips external cd burner 13:41:48 :) 13:42:05 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-239-91-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:42:36 dto: I really like that company, that's why I remembered ): 13:42:52 vasa [n=vasa@mm-42-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 13:44:25 i'm writing some elisp today. document processing and stuff. it's a replacement for org-publish.el 13:44:44 the replacement is a going to be a more general package called Emacs Impress. 13:46:13 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:46:45 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:51 my data structures are becoming a messy mix of symbols and keywords. i'd like to clean this up and just use keywords, but then i'll have to prefix _everything_ with colons. but if i go for symbols instead, i get the usual equality issues... what's the least bad thing to do? 13:49:28 Make up a new data structure? 13:49:40 -!- H4ns [n=hans@92.116.234.119] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:50:46 dwave_ [n=ask@212251243246.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 13:50:49 <_8david`> keywords _are_ symbols 13:51:26 koning_robot: What are your equality issues? 13:54:24 symbols from different packages aren't eql. that's not usually a problem, except when you get symbols from elsewhere. not that i get symbols from elsewhere, but i get keywords, and i don't want to start using keywords everywhere if it means having to use colons in every quoted data structure 13:54:42 Oh that equality issue. 13:54:45 so actually i'm not having issues yet, but i know they're on their way 13:56:30 <_8david`> sometimes symbols are just used as syntax for their name, ignoring the package. loop and iterate do that, to reduce namespace pollution. it's a pretty fishy approach though. 13:57:18 seems like that increases namespace pollution, depending how you look at it 13:58:15 <_8david`> personally I don't use many symbols in my data structures at all though. We'd have to know what exactly you use them for to be able to suggest a more comprehensive alternative. Are you building huge trees of plists or something naive like that? 13:58:41 koning_robot: How about using strings? 13:59:10 koning_robot: If you don't use keywords, but symbols, you'd have to quote them. So you're not really saving any character. (Except if you're talking about using symbols for some kind of DSLy macro) 13:59:14 -!- mulligan` [n=user@85.178.42.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:59:39 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178042225.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:00:11 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@dhcp-192-66.nomad.chalmers.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:00:31 i'm building tiny trees of alists in my code (with quote and backquote), and i also get data from a socket in the form of s-expressions. 14:01:24 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:41 ideally, i'd just be able to say '((foo (bar 1) (baz 2))) and then (assoc 'foo data) and it'd "just work" 14:03:12 So what is not working? 14:03:27 <_8david`> I'd file use of DIFFERENT-PACKAGE::FOO on that socket connection as "then don't do that" and not think much about it. 14:03:49 oh the socket thingery is in another package :) 14:06:07 <_8david`> sounds a little like writing Erlang code in Lisp anyway 14:06:19 Or maybe just make an assoc that => (assoc 'donkey::foo donkey::goo) 14:06:56 actually it isn't, this case just works (i forgot). but then postmodern comes in and gives me alists with keywords for keys. i could convert the results of each query to symbols before using them, and maybe i should (sorry for being so vague, i'm confusing myself) 14:06:57 Maybe this is why people say this package stuff is hard and completly difficult. 14:07:54 _8david`: do you use strings instead of symbols? 14:07:55 ok.. so postmodern is giving you :foo when your alist has foo ? 14:08:20 postmodern is giving me an alist with :foo and i use 'foo to get to it 14:08:42 Right.. so how does this relate to symbols in different packages not being eql ? 14:08:43 use :foo to get it, then? 14:08:54 Just trying to wrap my head around all this. 14:09:00 i don't see the problem, really 14:09:10 Use :foo to get to :foo. What madness! 14:09:44 postmodern can either return them as keywords or strings, but not as symbols, and i asummed that is because symbols would cause that kind of trouble 14:09:58 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@223.pool85-49-171.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:10:10 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:10:10 Right ok. 14:10:12 keywords are symbols 14:10:18 but when i use :foo in some places and 'foo in other places i end up with a mix of keywords and symbols, which was the problem 14:10:27 ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.80.190] has joined #lisp 14:10:37 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A2292.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:10:40 koning_robot: Here's an advice me woman often gives me. "pick one, stick with it" 14:10:58 yes, but :foo doesn't eql 'foo (i know why that is) 14:10:59 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:22 Well of course not. 14:11:44 (eql funky-donkey-with-big-hamstrings 14:11:46 yes, but postmodern decided not to stick with it :-) i wouldn't mind switching to keywords, but i don't want all the hassle of prefixing everything with colons 14:11:47 foo) 14:11:48 same thing. 14:11:49 eeh. 14:12:02 koning_robot: are you saying that you get alists with vaguely similar contents from different sources, and sometimes they use :FOO, and sometimes FOO? 14:12:13 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.64.27] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:12:16 yeah 14:12:40 chop off the : :) 14:13:14 in that case you can either do (assoc "FOO" ... :test #'string=) or filter and normalize your inputs to your liking 14:13:41 (input and output processors are probably neater0 14:14:21 yes, that makes sense, thanks! :) 14:14:32 koning_robot: (eql 'foo (intern (symbol-name ":foo"))) ? 14:15:11 pavelludiq [n=pavellud@87.246.14.26] has joined #lisp 14:16:17 -!- pavelludiq [n=pavellud@87.246.14.26] has left #lisp 14:16:26 personally I would reconsider why those alists are using symbols from different packages 14:16:42 export or keywords, and if you use keywords you're defeating the point of the package system... 14:16:47 (which is sometimes justifiable) 14:17:43 schme_: yeah, i guess writing a sym-eql or something is my best bet 14:18:06 kpreid: I think we got up to a place where they actually don't use symbols from different packages :) 14:18:26 i don't control the sources of the data (and what schme_ says) 14:19:09 if you don't control the sources then why are they in a usefully similar format? 14:20:07 because i control the data structure, but not the way it is formatted 14:20:21 huh? 14:20:38 how exactly are these symbols-in-some-package arising? 14:21:55 some come from read and some come from postmodern (postgresql), if that's what you mean 14:22:14 then you should be specifying the *package* appropriately when you read 14:22:16 but i don't currently have symbols from different packages, that was a mistake 14:22:34 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:22:40 (: 14:23:37 yes, i realize i'm incredibly vague, sorry 14:24:59 koning_robot: I think yer best bet is to convert :FOO => FOO :) 14:26:57 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:43 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:48 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@223.pool85-49-171.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:28:48 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a67b8c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-407b77cc54a22660] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 14:32:26 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:33:21 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@dhcp-47251.stud.phys.ntnu.no] has quit [] 14:33:21 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-42-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:26 vasek [n=vasa@mm-192-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 14:36:50 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has quit ["If Bruce Schneier ruled the world, it would be a cypher place."] 14:39:15 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has joined #lisp 14:42:23 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 14:45:24 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.80] has joined #lisp 14:48:25 -!- vasek [n=vasa@mm-192-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 14:48:36 vasa [n=vasa@mm-192-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 14:48:50 what is the usual way to do multilingual sites with hunchentoot and cl-who? 14:50:50 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 14:50:58 should i write seperate files for each language, containing all the strings used in the application, and the lookup the chosen languages, like (format nil (lookup-translation 'greeting-message (session-language *session*))) or some such? any cleaner way? 15:00:52 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 15:01:31 fusss: I haven't really found a decent solution for that in any language/framework 15:02:20 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 15:02:22 I would like to know how to organize a multilingual CLIM application, specifically the mapping from command names to commands. 15:10:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:10:20 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@223.pool85-49-171.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:10:46 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:11:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 15:11:58 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@223.pool85-49-171.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 15:12:04 -!- topo [n=topo@235.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 15:13:58 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has left #lisp 15:24:51 nikodemus: re generic-eql and all, i don't have time for benchmarks. This is the last week in my BSc, and, in addition to the finals, I have to benchmark a project against GCC ;) 15:27:04 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:00 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:06 need someone to look this solution ... 15:31:08 http://gist.github.com/35483 15:31:23 george__: try #scheme. 15:33:44 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:35:00 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:38:07 pkhuong: sicp is well accepted here 15:39:03 george__: Yes, sicp we like, scheme we don't like :) 15:39:13 sicp, sure. For scheme code, you'll much more luck in #scheme. 15:39:45 george__: or write your code in Common Lisp. 15:40:14 i am interested in the speed of the algorithm ... not the sintax by itself 15:40:41 george__: But we can't understand the code you post :) 15:41:27 schme_: =/ i probably made a messs =_( 15:42:07 george__: no, schme_ means that you wrote it in Scheme. 15:42:14 (I think) 15:42:21 Yes, exactly. 15:42:59 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a6f-034.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:43:01 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:43:20 is it so different the sintax ? 15:44:05 george__: it is spelled "syntax", and the superficial syntax is indeed similar. 15:44:21 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8ac8-191.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:44:54 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.80] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:45:26 french and spanish. 15:45:36 beach: i will try to convert that to clisp ... i will look for documentation 15:45:44 george__: Best of luck :) 15:45:47 ak70` [n=user@195.158.102.15] has joined #lisp 15:46:07 george__: clisp is an implementation of Common Lisp. 15:46:59 george__: In general this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, scheme is over in #scheme :) 15:47:00 george__: It's a regular newton method. You can try finding another fixpoint function for sqrt, but I don't think there are that many. Choosing a better starting point would likely be more time-effective. This might be why the question focuses on the termination test, not the iteration code itself. 15:50:22 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-156-75.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:33 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-156-75.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:35 -!- ak70 [n=user@195.158.102.15] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:50:52 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-192-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:24 vasa [n=vasa@mm-90-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 15:54:07 http://jonex.info/dump/yolisp.jpg 15:54:45 is this syntax correct ? 15:54:49 (defun sqrt-iter (x) (next-guess) (before-guess) ... 15:56:01 what part of the syntax are you referring to? 15:56:02 as long as NEXT-GUESS and BEFORE-GUESS are functions defined somewhere, sure! 15:56:14 schme_: ok 15:56:31 schme_: wouldn't /really/ be a syntax error if they weren't defined, though, would it :P 15:56:41 chrisdone: True true. 15:56:54 george__: I suspect you want (defun sqrt-iter (x next-guess before-guess) ...) 15:57:31 schme_: they are all arguments of the same function 15:57:40 george__: Yes. That is what you want then. 15:58:15 george__: (defun sqrt-iter (x) (next-guess) (before-guess) ...) gives you a fun that swallows just one argument. 15:58:42 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:44 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:01:51 schme_: is this correct? 16:01:56 (if good-enought?(x next-guess before-guess) 16:02:33 sure. 16:02:43 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:02:45 You might want an else clause. 16:03:06 george__: It's correct as in it is not wrong. It just might not actually do what you think it does (: 16:04:18 is there a function abs in CL ? 16:04:33 There's ABS 16:04:39 (abs -7) => 7 16:04:44 hmmm 16:04:57 that is what i wanted 16:05:00 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:13 george__: Much of this can be found in the hyperspec :) 16:05:28 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has left #lisp 16:05:29 Right time to pop off again. have a good couple of hours 16:06:15 schme_: ... i think i converted 16:06:17 http://gist.github.com/35487 16:07:33 benny` [n=benny@i577A1497.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:16 -!- benny` is now known as benny 16:09:33 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:12:17 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 16:14:50 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:15:47 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:32 upssy [n=lopz@88.118.83.220] has joined #lisp 16:17:01 (defrule program_time 16:17:01 ?m <- (kiek_laiko_program (metai ?)) 16:17:02 => 16:17:02 (if (= ?t 4) then (printout t "yes")) 16:17:02 ) 16:17:20 if i printout ?t is 4 16:17:30 but never equal 16:18:11 maybe 4 is treaded like string and not number ? 16:18:25 ak70`` [n=user@195.158.102.15] has joined #lisp 16:18:25 <_3b> what language is that? (and don't paste it directly into the channel please) 16:18:32 ok 16:18:33 jess 16:19:04 Jess something like Expert System 16:19:04 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-90-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:15 upssy: why should we care? 16:20:02 don't know why 16:20:15 <_3b> this channel is mostly about common lisp 16:20:38 but code is correct for common lisp ? 16:21:04 say i want to compare variable number 16:21:10 how to write it in common lisp ? 16:21:17 <_3b> it would be very odd if it were CL 16:21:31 <_3b> (= variable number) should work 16:21:39 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:21:42 ok 16:21:46 mulander [n=user@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 16:21:54 thanks for help 16:22:36 -!- ak70` [n=user@195.158.102.15] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:22:47 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:23:12 Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 16:24:38 you can use Lisa, it's cute 16:25:20 upssy: Jess is "lisp" in appearance only 16:25:59 CLIPS is another one, written in C but has identical syntax to Jess 16:27:22 koning_r1bot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 16:33:17 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:35:50 george__: Have you tried that code? 16:36:09 Maybe we should rename #lisp into #everything-with-parens 16:37:05 george__: Something that jumps out at me is (defun max-error 0.1) 16:37:28 vasa [n=vasa@mm-168-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 16:40:57 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:25 I really like that gist thing though. 16:43:44 now that I think about it, it's probably going to be simpler (and more efficient) to just use #'equal than (funcall test ...) for equality checking in epigraph. 16:44:41 hmm... is there a big performance penalty for #'equal hash tables vs. #'eql? 16:45:04 Nope. 16:45:24 slyrus_: I was doing some random testing with it just some day ago, and I couldn't spot much difference. 16:45:29 slyrus_: depends on how much you GC VS how deep equal must go ;) 16:45:33 But maybe my testing was faultiy. 16:46:10 alpheus [n=user@c-98-213-176-16.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:46 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb421d.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:50 schme_: i did not try it ... i donī t have cl interpreter yet 16:49:52 alpheus` [n=user@vpn.cashnetusa.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:00 but i solve the exercise ... thanks 16:51:44 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:52:09 -!- alpheus [n=user@c-98-213-176-16.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:52:32 -!- anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:54:38 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:12 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.250.77] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:06 <_theHAM> http://jonex.info/dump/yolisp.jpg <-- what's the point of the code? 17:03:46 _adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 17:06:05 george__: Ya ok. It won't work :) 17:07:04 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:07:58 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 17:08:52 schme_: i tried to translate do CL ... but i donī t know Cl ...i will keep it in scheme 17:09:04 <_3b> _theHAM: looks like a metacircular evaluator 17:10:20 <_3b> possibly copied from http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/jmc.lisp 17:11:12 george__: Just out of curiosity here.. Why hang in #lisp if you don't do any cl? :) 17:14:56 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.250.77] has joined #lisp 17:15:15 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.113.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:15:31 fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.113.169] has joined #lisp 17:16:45 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-355f9547095536d8] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 17:17:08 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-dc24024dff2bbf35] has joined #lisp 17:18:34 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:18:38 -!- _adeht is now known as adeht 17:23:53 smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:04 Hi, I was wondering if there were any built-in functions for converting a simple-bit-vector to an integer and vice versa? 17:25:42 ejs1 [n=eugen@92-49-228-195.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 17:26:38 this should be in a FAQ somewhere. No, there isn't any. However, if you don't need to reuse storage or use small bit vectors (fixnums), you can just use bitwise operations on integers. 17:28:27 mibu [n=chatzill@85-250-203-27.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:29:05 Thanks pkhuong. I'm working on some image manipulation stuff, and have found that just using dpb on integers is too slow (I hypothesize the reason may be its non-destructiveness). I wanted to test using bit-vectors instead, to see if it was any faster. 17:29:15 slom_ [n=slom@pD9EB594F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:42 there's definitely a need for a current CL faq 17:29:48 smanek: you can work with vectors of small integers. 17:30:26 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:30:26 locklace: there are already half a dozen new CL FAQs. 17:30:34 there was an old c.l.l faq that could be a starting point, but it's pretty small i think 17:31:03 Already half a dozen people started from that old c.l.l FAQ as a starting point and updated it during the last six years. 17:31:17 pkhuong: yes, that may be worth trying. thanks. 17:33:08 pjb: "a" -> "exactly one" ;) 17:33:28 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:34 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:34:57 locklace: difficult to restrict it to one, surely :) 17:36:10 -!- slom_ [n=slom@pD9EB594F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:36:24 yes, now that there are already more. 17:36:29 locklace: have any time machine? 17:37:27 anyway, if there exists even one good current one, i haven't seen it, maybe pjb can point it out 17:38:15 no no no. The last time the word "good" was mentionned here was one and a half hour by Right time to pop off again. have a good couple of hours 17:38:27 locklace: you cannot change the specs after the fact. 17:38:35 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 17:40:02 Is google broken? 17:40:20 Nah! Google still working. 1,000,500 hits for lisp faq... 17:40:26 there's definitely a need for a good current CL faq 17:41:45 locklace: you will never be able to be as current as google. Try it if you want. Others have tried, they had problems. Google is very good. You may try. Others have tried, ... they had problems... 17:43:53 locklace: that said, I would start by writting a cll scanner to extract the questions that are really asked frequently... 17:44:10 And factoring in questions from #lisp too. 17:44:38 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-168-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:44:47 pkhuong: no prob, i'll rustle up a microbenchmark or two 17:44:54 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:46:36 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-dc24024dff2bbf35] has quit ["0"] 17:48:14 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F9CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:16 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 17:50:40 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 17:57:00 vy [n=user@88.227.51.30] has joined #lisp 17:59:32 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:00:59 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:39 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student166-32.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 18:02:26 Hi! What is missing in http://paste.lisp.org/display/72100 to make it tail-recursive? 18:02:53 vy: is that a trick question? 18:03:34 vy: you are using the result of the recursive invocation. thus, it cannot be converted to a jump. 18:03:40 H4ns: No? I just couldn't figure out -- or more possibly I still couldn't grab the tail-recursive concept. 18:03:55 Oh! Pff... Thanks. 18:04:15 I must have gone blind. 18:04:35 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:04:58 vasa [n=vasa@mm-15-83-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 18:07:20 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:53 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-15-83-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 18:12:04 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:12:15 Muhahahaha! I've written the 3n+1 problem in SBCL without using a single line of optimization hack (no declarations, types, etc.) and without memoization tables, it outperforms the C/C++ solutions! (0.002secs to 0.084secs) Cool! 18:12:30 AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has joined #lisp 18:13:35 -!- gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:14:35 r0otSlin1y [n=ro0tSlin@29.245.100.97.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:14:44 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:15:04 -!- mibu [n=chatzill@85-250-203-27.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 18:15:40 vy: how much of the C time is just starting the executable? 18:17:14 pkhuong: Umm... Dunno. It also needs to parse a 8 integers in 4 lines of a file. 18:17:30 <_8david`> or more fundamentally, "how did you arrive at these numbers?" 18:17:41 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:18:14 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.113.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:46 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:09 pkhuong: http://loblog.wordpress.com/2007/03/29/programming-challenge-the-3n1-problem/ 18:20:38 _8david`: Using the same way they did in C, but I didn't use lookup tables. 18:21:38 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:24:06 fatelang [n=user@71-14-92-19.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:05 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-052-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:55 <_8david`> I was asking for the methodology used to arrive at these benchmark numbers 18:27:06 vy: it is possible that the C one in including C executable startup time 18:27:38 it would be fairer to take his C code and modify it to time the parts involved in solving the problem only 18:28:22 Actually, the results are ambiguous. (Compiler options aren't specified, platform isn't specified, etc.) But i think the results are still funny. 18:28:46 well, compiling C is easy and he gives his solution 18:28:50 so you can always check :) 18:29:48 josemanuel [n=josemanu@133.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:30:15 0.002 seconds! I don't even get sbcl starting up that fast. 18:30:47 schme_: it doesn't include sbcl startup time 18:31:04 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:31:39 schme_: Don't you still have your SLIME open? 18:31:45 <_8david`> run time, system time? repeated how often? from cache or not? 18:32:05 *_8david`* is waiting for Xof to demand error bars 18:32:35 vy: Sure. But I assume you have to fire up the a.out from the C to get the time of it.. So I figured to even it out you'd need to start sbcl and load the shit :) 18:40:22 ejs2 [n=eugen@77-109-28-17.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 18:40:52 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-af4872a478026e7a] has joined #lisp 18:42:19 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-105-4-223.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:43:35 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:46:19 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:29 trittweil [n=rittweil@rayhalle1.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 18:48:07 -!- fatelang [n=user@71-14-92-19.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:48:31 fatelang [n=user@71-14-92-19.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:50:00 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:51:01 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] 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19:38:33 -!- mulander [n=user@nat-4.interq.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:40:17 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:41:18 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-105-4-223.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 19:42:30 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-137.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:46:08 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-158-30.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:51:49 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:46 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:56:32 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:16 So evenin' 19:57:59 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 19:59:09 ak70``` [n=user@195.158.102.15] has joined #lisp 20:00:13 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 20:00:20 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 20:02:41 -!- ak70`` 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connection] 20:17:03 lispm [n=joswig@e177152019.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:17:14 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:19:10 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:48 nightcrawler [n=nightcra@h197n7c1o260.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:25 -!- nightcrawler [n=nightcra@h197n7c1o260.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 20:24:05 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F0A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:12 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-052-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:43 fatelang [n=user@71-14-92-19.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:33:21 -!- vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:39 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:29 hi, what are my options for a Lisp with a threading model under Windows? 20:35:33 mulander [n=user@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 20:35:37 I don't care if they're native threads or userspace 20:36:47 <_3b> most of the commercial windows CLs, maybe abcl or ecl 20:36:47 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:08 Phoodus: ecl, clozure cl 20:37:14 What are the news on the threading patch for sbcl, anyways? :- 20:37:34 vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:56 <_3b> clozure has working threads on win32? if so, how useable is it? 20:38:15 _3b: 64bit is fairly stable, 32bit needs more testers 20:38:33 <_3b> cool, might have to try that at some point 20:39:15 I wonder if the ccl developers could be convinced to change their fasl extension to something less obnoxious 20:39:21 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["Go Canada!"] 20:39:22 well, we're all 64bit, so taht sounds reasonable ;) 20:40:23 divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:25 checking out ECL first, since CCL's windows port is still listed as "alpha" state 20:41:57 Phoodus: clisp has experimental threads on win32 20:42:03 really? 20:42:11 clisp is our standard win dev platform 20:42:25 Phoodus: ./configure --with-threads=win32_threads 20:42:30 hmm 20:42:35 "highly experimental - use at your own risk" 20:42:45 is it supported in any of the cross-lisp compatibility libraries yet? 20:42:53 No idea. 20:43:34 Bordeaux-threads doesn't cover it yet. 20:43:47 oh noes! 20:44:05 fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.113.169] has joined #lisp 20:44:36 Well, I'm not sure which other cross-lisp threading compatibility libraries there are. 20:45:19 perhaps you overestimate the difficulty of adding said support yourself 20:45:40 I don't, but I'm not really interested. 20:46:03 I was answering Phoodus' question. 20:46:20 hefner: what's its fasl extension? 20:46:33 Phoodus: if you send a patch to bordeaux-threads-devel@common-lisp.net we'll apply it 20:46:33 Piranha__: oh, your names collided in my hash 20:46:48 hefner: (in mine too!) 20:47:09 You need a better hash function. =) 20:47:33 trittweil: lx(32|64)fsl depending on the CPU 20:47:51 trittweil: .lx64fsl, here. I don't like the .l bit, I'm accustomed to being able to tab complete by the time I get to .l 20:48:50 That's an argument! Why not send a mail to the mailinglist? 20:48:56 hefner: you can teach your tab completion function to ignore certain fle types. 20:49:07 I can do anything, if I want to. 20:49:16 That's the spirit! 20:49:38 indeed, I chose to banish it from my disk until such a time as I felt like trying it again. 20:50:02 hefner: "i don't like ccl because the fasl naming is stupid" 20:50:06 congrats! 20:50:25 thanks. 20:51:04 that wasn't my only gripe, but I'm not going to go into it until I get around to investigating solutions. 20:52:00 I am simultaneously hopeful that another serious CCL implementation has emerged, and irritated that it throws a wrench in the idea of writing strictly to sbcl. 20:53:24 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 20:55:00 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:26 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:33 -!- upssy [n=lopz@88.118.83.220] has left #lisp 20:58:06 hefner: yes, the new CCL forced me to begin making my stuff portable once again. 20:58:07 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 20:58:22 I haven't gotten around to writing that CFFI backend to gcc-xml-ffi, however. 20:58:55 heh, "CCL implementation" 20:59:06 yeah, some of our older code is Allegro, we use clips often, and have decided for SBCL on the (linux) servers, so we try to stay portable 20:59:47 perhaps I should consider abandoning gcc-xml-ffi for verrazano but it was never clear to me that it was any more fully-baked than gcc-xml-ffi 21:00:01 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:00:07 gcc-xml-ffi has the better name, at least. 21:00:44 that's not saying much :) 21:02:31 H4ns: that was obviously said with tongue in cheek. Are CCL's fasl files compatible between releases? 21:03:18 neomage [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:35 -!- smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:04:30 trittweil: no, not usually. 21:04:38 -!- divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:05:17 but the compiler is fast ;-) 21:06:34 anfitrio1 [n=nonamme@h-68-167-69-244.nycmny83.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:01 -!- Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:07:10 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@133.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 21:07:34 w00t 21:07:54 -!- anfitrio1 is now known as anfitrio 21:07:54 hello? 21:07:54 I be havin questions 21:07:54 can I ax here? 21:08:03 H4ns: As upwards-compatibility isn't a strict requirement, changing the extension shouldn't be a problem. 21:08:32 anfitrio: Only when you start writing English.. 21:08:37 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:45 tcr: certainly, but the fasl naming follows a certain scheme. i'm not optimistic that gbyers wants to move away from that scheme. but open a but report and try. 21:09:47 -!- anfitrio is now known as anfitrion 21:10:01 ok 21:10:14 does lisp work on mips arch? 21:10:29 I want to make something for the psp 21:10:33 -!- haqe43 [n=lucius@host86-139-102-44.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["leaving"] 21:10:44 or arm, I forgot what is it 21:10:48 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:10:51 :) 21:11:30 anfitrion: there are lisps that you couls try to port. common lisp is rather large, thus it needs a lot of memory to run. 21:11:41 anfitrion: you may want to look at scheme or islisp. 21:11:42 afaik, clisp will work most anywhere as far as compatibility goes 21:11:57 anfitrion: I know someone who's interested in writing a Lisp implementation for arm. 21:12:24 anfitrion: There has been Lisp dialects (and schemes) for embedded systems like robots etc 21:13:06 Is there an implementation that provides fairly small standalone images? 21:13:15 the PSP has 32MB DRAM, that would be enough for CLISP, CCL, ECL, ... 21:13:49 sykopomp: what is small? CCL is a good candidate for small apps 21:14:04 lispm: not-30-megabytes 21:14:22 sykopomp: ECL's dynamic library is 4mb big 21:14:30 nice :) 21:14:42 what is it that bulks up SBCL so much? O.o 21:14:45 sykopomp: you can compress the 30MB 21:14:51 hoh. 21:14:54 <_3b> corman and clisp have small binaries also 21:14:56 clisp works on arm, that's for sure. 21:15:03 sykopomp: SBCL itself is included in the image basically 21:15:25 tcr: yeah, but wouldn't you need to do that for just about any standalone lisp image? 21:15:28 The commercial implementations, too. 21:15:46 err. Standalone executable* 21:16:07 sykopomp: Lisp makes it possible to have the compiler run at runtime (COMPILE, COMPILE-FILE) 21:17:29 "CPU MIPS R4000-based; " 21:17:38 two MIPS32R2 cores with no TLB 21:17:40 if you want a small image, get rid of unused symbols, get rid of arglists, of doc strings, source locations, local function names, inlined functions, ... 21:18:11 and the new one has 64MB DRAM 21:20:02 but the psp can have a flash drive with several gigabytes 21:21:15 sbcl would work then? 21:21:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:21:42 you could be as famous as 'Naugthy Dog' 21:21:56 by trimming down the stuff lispm mentioned? 21:22:08 oO 21:22:17 anfitrion: it would probably choke on itself and die the moment you loaded any sort of media. 21:22:22 but hey, you can run the image! ;) 21:22:38 -!- neomage [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:22:38 then which one? 21:22:57 this sounds like a bad idea, to me, especially given the CL culture of writing the whole thing in lisp. 21:23:03 ppl are making programs, emulators and what not in LUA and C++ 21:23:16 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 21:23:37 (contrast with embedding an interpreter where C or C++ does all the heavy lifting, and manages most of bulky things in memory) 21:23:47 I haven't heard of anyone use Common Lisp on a PSP 21:23:53 using 21:24:22 anfitrion: Naughty Dog used a custom lisp dialect that allowed them to limit memory usage quite a bit (by inlining assembly..) 21:24:33 I know, that's why I am asking for advice on how to go about doing this 21:24:51 I don't know if most lisp implementations are nice enough to slap into an embedded device. ECL might be nice, since it's small :) 21:25:03 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:25:38 anfitrion: port a CL implementation that's using C (ECL or CLISP) or one that has a MIPS port 21:25:40 my aim is to be able to make programs on a portable device. And not a laptop 21:25:51 I think this would be a great demonstration, if you didn't mind writing your own specialized lisp to do it (and I know that deep down, every CL hacker wants to branch off and write their own crazy system) 21:26:08 ECL or CLISP should be fine 21:26:22 anfitrion: You might want to try something like clisp. Can you run SDL on the PSP? 21:26:24 but you have to port the runtime to the OS 21:26:38 if so, lispbuilder-sdl might be useful to you :)... it doesn't seem to run on ECL though. 21:26:45 sykopomp: yes, sdl is fully ported 21:27:02 anfitrion: try clisp+sdl, I guess *shrug* 21:27:20 anfitrion: I suppose it depends what you want to write it in. If you want to compete with commercial games written in C++, that would be very difficult. If you want to do simpler (but cool) things where you can absorb some of the overhead, something like ECL ought to work. 21:27:21 *_3b* just wrote a webapp last time i wanted to target a portable device :p 21:29:19 hefner: Lisp might be able to compete with C++ on more modern platforms. 21:29:33 hefner: specially the more high-end consoles. At least. 21:30:02 hefner: he he, not planning on competing with commercial games. I guess some simple stuff, such as a language learning program 21:30:50 _3b: webapp as html+xml+java+php? 21:31:33 anfitrion: webapp as in lisp+ajax 21:31:53 anfitrion: no java or php in sight. There's some nice web frameworks for lisp, and several web servers. 21:31:55 I'd love to write a simon-the-sorcerer (or monkey island) clone in CL.. 21:32:07 <_3b> yeah, except json instead of x, and parenscript in place of j 21:32:36 anfitrion: parenscript is a lispy mini-language that compiles straight into javascript ;p 21:32:40 <_3b> yeah to lisp+ajax that is, none of that html/xml/java/php junk 21:32:49 trittweil: heh, that would be cool. 21:32:50 ajax=xml+java 21:32:53 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77-109-28-17.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:32:58 mm.. ok, brb 21:33:02 anfitrion: no, it's XML + Javascript 21:33:03 trittweil: these days, you could write those in javascript :) 21:33:08 <_3b> ajax=javascript, not java 21:33:10 ejs1 [n=eugen@77-109-28-17.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 21:33:10 Javascript is a completely, and utterly different language than Java 21:33:28 Java is a horrible, miserable, hideous beast. Javascript is... well, useful. 21:33:54 sykopomp: a miserable beast with an industrial strength VM, at least. 21:33:55 last a knew ajax stands for async java xml 21:34:09 ah ok 21:34:23 anfitrion: asynchronous javascripn and xml 21:34:29 script* 21:34:46 hefner: dump enough money on poo, and it's poo encrusted in gold. But the core is still poo. 21:35:04 hefner: I would probably target the adobe stuff 21:35:15 -!- fatelang [n=user@71-14-92-19.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:10 well, my honest opinion is that the state of internet apps and webpages is a collosal innefficient bloat 21:36:29 who would argue with that? 21:36:30 java and flash crap are ruining or already did damage it 21:36:50 flash is quite cool 21:36:55 I dunno, the DHTML trainwreck seems like a bigger concern than flash or silly java applets. 21:37:43 <_3b> i'd say the problem is widespread lack of taste more than any of the particular technologies used to implement said lack of taste 21:38:53 -!- aka-aka [i=dba322f1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7e0dbda329dc9d90] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:39:03 bavardage [n=bavardag@87.113.82.119.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:17 what's the difference between lisp's dispatch and C++ function overloading? 21:39:18 the flash stuff appears to be thought-out; the whole webapp scene seems to pile kludge over kludge resulting in insecure and hard-to-debug solutions. (I used neither, that's just an opinionated impression.) 21:39:19 in a nutshell 21:39:20 _3b: taste at large, or of the people developing the technology? because if the technology were any good, other people's widespread lack of taste shouldn't be my problem. 21:39:22 flash is so inefficient 21:39:38 lispm: Compared to Ajax?? 21:39:41 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:39:54 compared to everything 21:40:07 <_3b> hefner: people applying the tech places it doesn't belong, that sort of thing 21:40:07 bavardage: C++ function overloading is static and decided by types at compile time; CL method dispatch is dynamic and decided by types at runtime. 21:40:17 bavardage: Common Lisp's object system does runtime dispatching, whereas c++ does static dispatching 21:40:26 even with polymorphism? 21:40:30 lispm: http://flare.prefuse.org/ and then reconsider 21:40:52 lispm: The actionscript vm seems to well-enginerred, actually. 21:41:03 bavardage: define polymorphism, and remind us what it has to do with function overloading 21:41:03 +be 21:41:06 youtube video player and then reconsider 21:41:34 this stuff hogs down my 2+ Ghz processor 21:41:40 uhm I thought polymorphism was deciding what function to call depending on the type at runtime 21:41:43 lemme check 21:41:45 I'm not well up on C++ 21:41:48 makes it slow like my Atari 1040st 21:42:18 crashes the browser twice a day at least 21:42:20 lispm: that may very well be a mozilla integration issue 21:42:30 oh I fail 21:42:31 nm 21:42:38 right I think I getchat hen 21:42:40 bavardage: gj 21:42:41 *getcha then 21:42:45 <_3b> trittweil: avm2 seems a bit less well engineered after trying to compile for it a while :) 21:42:50 sykopomp: polymorphism is slightly different 21:42:58 bavardage: there are different kinds of polymorphisms 21:43:08 I mean it is deciding what function to call depending on object, but not exactly for overloading 21:43:12 yeh 21:43:20 trittweil: I thought C++ does runtime dispatching 21:43:33 hefner: method overloading is also called ad-hoc polymorphism 21:44:43 lispm: I don't know C++; it's what I was explained by Zhivago. 21:45:42 lispm: It doesn't. Without proper cast, the C++-method of the superclass is called. 21:46:40 Jabberwockey you might want to change the Wikipedia article on C++ where it states that it does dynamic dispatch 21:47:06 it certainly does do dynamic dispatch 21:47:20 it doesn't do dynamic dispatch based on multiple argument types 21:47:30 jsnell: right 21:47:47 there is a static compile time decision 21:48:12 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 21:48:20 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 21:48:46 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 21:49:43 what does dynamic dispatch mean if not dispatching on the actual run-time types? 21:50:40 trittweil, it does dynamic dispatch on actual run-time classes for the single dispatch case 21:50:58 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:52:36 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:53:08 fook` [n=user@dslb-084-057-251-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:18 -!- fook` [n=user@dslb-084-057-251-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 21:54:57 lispm: (I hope I remember Zhivago's example correctly) If a class Animal has a method feed(), and a subclass Elephant has overwritten this method, then code like Animal *a = getAnimalForMedicalInvestigation(); ...; a.feed(); would invoke the feed() method of the Animal class, even though getAnimal...() could have returned an instance of Elephant at runtime. 21:55:16 lispm: In CLOS, the feed method specializing on Elephant would have been invoked. 21:56:16 trittweil. that maybe the case for ordinary function overloading 21:56:31 that's only true if feed is not virtual, yes? 21:56:34 trittweil, but for virtual member functions it works as expected 21:56:56 (leave it to C++ to choose the wrong defaults) 21:57:14 Yes, but that way, it's not possibly to really overload methods. 21:57:28 trittweil: C++ supports both static and dynamic polymorphism 21:58:02 bavardage: thanks for turning this into ##c++ 21:58:21 sykopomp: #c++-newbies, even :) 21:59:13 #c++-hearsay 21:59:44 #c++-bashing-for-lispers 22:00:28 now i'm inspired to go write somesthing in C++. 22:02:33 it's not that great 22:02:49 virtual foo() = 0; seems to be the syntax to declare an abstract method?! 22:03:24 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb421d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:03:25 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5acc02b3.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:03:28 sykopomp: my pleasure 22:03:35 (oddly enough, right now I am attempting to write some C++ which uses dynamic dispatch) 22:03:44 "last committer standing", *sigh* 22:03:49 *sykopomp* wishes APPEND added a full cons at the end of the list... 22:04:13 how do you have an unfull cons? 22:04:24 sykopomp: (append a b (copy-list c)) 22:04:40 trittweil: I know. 22:04:53 bougyman: (append (list 'foo) 'bar) -> (FOO . BAR) 22:04:59 I just find it to be an annoyance :) 22:05:20 -!- bavardage [n=bavardag@87.113.82.119.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:05:21 I sort of feel conses are a bit leaky :( 22:05:29 *sykopomp* waits to get stormed on. 22:05:37 they are 22:05:39 conses are the hardest part of lisp for me to really grasp. 22:05:54 i had to explain them to a rubyist today. 22:05:58 i think i got it pretty right. 22:06:05 he was able to get it, anyway. 22:06:31 bougyman: conses are standard linked list data structures. The problem in lisp is that they're so leaky that it's hard to explain them to people without explaining how they work underneath. 22:06:44 sykopomp: and that's what I mean. 22:07:03 Conses are not a linked list data structure. 22:07:11 and that's the same argument that broke out. 22:07:19 They're pairs of pointers to arbitrary objects 22:07:24 damn, i'm 0 for two. 22:07:33 i called them a two tuple data structure. 22:07:38 trittweil: How is that different from a singly-linked list? 22:07:55 sykopomp: didn't you just illustrate one such case? 22:08:05 which can be used to create linked lists by pointing the second tuple member at a new cons. 22:08:39 hefner: I guess when I think of the data structure, I also think of all the different messed-up manipulations that can happen. 22:08:44 Like improper lists. 22:08:46 with the (a . (b . (c . nil))) 22:10:04 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:48 Use Arrap instead 22:11:07 I think I see what you mean, though. Conses aren't linked lists by default, specially since they can be manipulated in weird ways that don't necessarily involved linked lists. 22:11:21 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77-109-28-17.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:18 lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 22:17:21 So when are we renaming lisp to cosp? 22:17:26 conp even 22:19:02 There is some pretty bad Lisp code in Blogs out there lately. I mean really bad. 22:19:17 (setf should-be-number (if should-be-number nil t)) 22:20:10 remove nil (loop for ... collect 22:20:27 the right way is of course (define-modify-macro flip () not) (flip should-be-number) 22:20:33 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@212251243246.customer.cdi.no] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 22:20:35 smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:59 notf 22:23:17 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-23-60.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:23:45 *trittweil* always wants to write a modify macro WORF, but hasn't been able to come up with an opportunity. 22:24:09 What's WORF ? 22:24:11 it's the first thing I'll add to my personal lisp dialect! 22:24:52 appletizer [n=a@82-32-120-59.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:26:51 -!- trittweil [n=rittweil@rayhalle1.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:27:03 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5acc02b3.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 22:28:29 lispm: NO! NO! NO! 22:28:54 please don't spread this notion that "f" means "in-place"... 22:29:28 or tell me it does :-) 22:29:59 it does?!? 22:30:18 well, naming the modify-macro of not notf implies it does 22:30:48 what are your doubt? 22:30:50 s 22:31:25 among the actual functions of the clhs, in-place-modification is not indicated by "f", but by a different name 22:31:39 which? 22:31:54 cons -> push, not consf. 1+ -> incf, not 1+f. etc 22:32:33 and setf is not a modify operation either 22:32:37 f means "acts on a place" 22:32:45 (incf a 10) can't be 1+f 22:32:51 true 22:33:19 I would have expected plusf, since plus was used for + earlier 22:33:36 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 22:34:14 my argument is that none of the prescriptive parts of the clhs use f as an adjective denoting in-place modification 22:34:57 whereas all (most?) uses of f *do* denote "this operator acts on a place" 22:35:31 unfortunately the examples for define-modify-macro oppose this :-) 22:35:50 haha 22:35:52 <_3b> what about getf? 22:36:02 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:12 doesn't modify anything, so surely can't be an in-place modification operation 22:36:56 <_3b> doesn't need a place either though, does it? 22:37:37 ah, right. I'd argue that most "f" suffixes aren't about acting on a place 22:37:54 aref, svref, *if 22:37:57 type-oF ? ;) 22:38:18 and class-of 22:38:40 right. 22:38:41 <_3b> those are words though, not suffixes 22:38:50 Not words in any sane language :) 22:38:55 Anyway it's bedtimef. 22:39:02 'night #lisp 22:39:10 anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has joined #lisp 22:39:11 <_3b> (sleepf ...)? 22:39:42 wasabi__________ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:40:08 (rotatef chair bed) 22:42:44 -!- wasabi_________ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:49:48 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-145-208.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 22:51:01 mulligan [n=user@e178041205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:52:14 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:31 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:04:09 is there any way to capture the output of TIME? 23:05:37 (with-output-to-string (*trace-output*) (time 10)) ? 23:06:00 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- andrewy [n=irssi@cl-53.lax-01.us.sixxs.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-137.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- wolfboy22 [i=baumgold@tithonus.cs.brandeis.edu] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-214-23-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.18.72] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- j_king [n=jking@mortar.walled.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- prip [n=_prip@host1-120-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- hefnr [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- bartiosze [i=bartiosz@nintendos.pl] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-245-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:06:00 I can work with that. Thanks :) 23:06:16 AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has joined #lisp 23:06:16 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-137.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:06:16 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:16 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 23:06:16 prip [n=_prip@host1-120-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:06:16 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:16 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:16 wolfboy22 [i=baumgold@tithonus.cs.brandeis.edu] has joined #lisp 23:06:16 andrewy [n=irssi@cl-53.lax-01.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:16 eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 23:06:16 PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 23:06:16 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 23:06:17 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 23:06:17 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has joined #lisp 23:06:17 keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:17 kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has joined #lisp 23:06:17 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:17 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-214-23-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:17 j_king [n=jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:17 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 23:06:17 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:06:17 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:17 gz [n=gz@209.6.18.72] has joined #lisp 23:07:15 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-245-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:01 Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 23:08:01 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 23:08:01 lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 23:08:01 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 23:08:01 bartiosze [i=bartiosz@nintendos.pl] has joined #lisp 23:08:01 lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:01 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:01 hefnr [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:01 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 23:15:53 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:16:40 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:31 -!- tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@unaffiliated/tc-rucho] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 23:20:28 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-226-145.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 23:21:44 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:22:52 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:23:10 dwave_ [n=ask@212251243246.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 23:24:40 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:27:38 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 23:28:52 ak70```` [n=user@195.158.102.15] has joined #lisp 23:30:37 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:08 -!- ak70``` [n=user@195.158.102.15] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:33:19 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:38 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:44:09 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-052-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:37 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.226.55] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:47:24 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:48:30 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:46 macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:49:10 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:50:26 froydnj, reddit's latest anti-gc ignorant luddite ;) 23:53:20 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:53:24 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:55:25 oh, god. "Yo dawg, I heard you like lisp, so I put a lisp in your lisp so you can eval while you eval." 23:55:53 -xzibit 23:58:35 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp