00:00:54 thanks lnostdal i'll try that out 00:01:47 disumu [n=disumu@p57A256E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:23 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 00:04:38 *sigh* welcome, insomnia! 00:04:57 too cold to sleep 00:04:59 :) 00:05:14 No oil left? :) 00:09:06 *lnostdal* has been playing around with firefox-3.2.x or "minefield" lately .. 00:09:29 ..quite a bit faster than 3.0.x with jit enabled 00:09:36 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:09:46 heh, wood and electricity here, tic :} 00:10:01 minefield is just what they call the dev version 00:10:08 yeah 00:10:17 it's also what your distro will call it if they don't want to pull in firefox's branding ;) 00:10:40 lol, yeah .. "Iceweasel" on Debian .. i like that 00:10:51 iceweasel is a fork, iirc 00:10:57 ok 00:11:02 or at least a re-branding 00:11:14 thought it was a just a different name for legal reasons 00:11:28 -!- phao [n=phao@189.13.96.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:11:47 ah. It's a rebranding, yes. 00:12:27 (stream-external-format *standard-output*) => :UTF-8 00:13:04 mogunus: is the site publicly accessible? 00:13:22 kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:36 oudeis: yes, it is 00:13:40 mogunate.org:8080 00:13:52 http://mogunate.org:8080/home 00:14:23 mogunus: your unicode is breaking there 00:14:35 Broke here too. Very broke. 00:14:46 Yeah... I'm trying to figure out why. 00:14:54 It works fine when I run the server from inside slime 00:14:57 yes, looks like it was mangled on the way to the browser 00:15:26 fhobia [n=fhobia@c-24-6-54-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:26 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:15:42 mogunus: what external format have you set in hunchentoot? 00:15:55 (flex:make-external-format :utf-8 :eol-style :lf) 00:16:20 hey, that actually looks like a really neat site. Tell me when they publish it so I can read some neat stuff :D 00:16:21 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:40 so you're setting *hunchentoot-default-external-format* 00:16:43 to that? 00:16:52 yes 00:17:20 oh, that's weird 00:18:02 how do you generate the html? .. or is it read from a file? 00:18:09 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-248.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:18:11 I generate the html with cl-who 00:18:45 mogunus: your html encoding says utf-8 but the text is broken even when i force it to be utf-8 00:19:39 mogunus pasted "example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71778 00:19:40 yeah, it really is not utf-8 .. the text itself 00:19:41 It looks like an UTF-8 text interpreted as latin-1 and shown in utf-8 again. 00:19:51 Double utf-8'ing. 00:19:55 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-057-020.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:19:57 Frequent problem. 00:20:01 mogunus: and you're doing it with setf, rather than binding it with let? 00:20:09 Yeah 00:20:13 Those are the relevent lines 00:20:22 mogunus: are you using sbcl ? 00:20:31 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:20:32 oh, the text is utf8 in the files? 00:20:41 are you sure that sbcl is then reading those files as utf8? 00:20:55 mogunus: what's the value of your sb-impl::*default-external-format* ? 00:23:04 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:23:10 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 00:23:26 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:05 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-015-079.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:21 peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:16 fe[nl]ix: :Utf-8 00:29:43 And yes, the text is utf-8 in the files, I made sure a while ago when I was originally having this problem. 00:29:52 literally. I looked at them in hexl-mode. 00:31:43 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.197] has joined #lisp 00:32:22 mogunus: anyway, antoszka is right: try (sb-ext:octets-to-string (sb-ext:string-to-octets "hispánica" :external-format :latin-1) :external-format :utf-8) 00:33:14 Illegal :UTF-8 character starting at byte position 4. 00:33:19 is what that gives me 00:33:26 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:34:10 I get "hispánica" 00:35:29 I'm confused 00:37:14 mogunus: does (sb-ext:string-to-octets "á" :external-format :latin-1) return #(195 161) ? 00:37:35 Yes 00:39:21 so if you convert that back to :utf-8 you should get "á" 00:40:17 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:56 okay! 00:41:00 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.23.128] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:41:01 I figured out what was going on. 00:41:04 I thinl. 00:41:14 Any strings that I have or build in the source file come out mangled. 00:41:24 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41:24 Any strings that I read from a file come out fine. 00:42:00 http://mogunate.org:8080/numeros/0 00:42:20 odd 00:42:24 That'll show that behavior. 00:42:32 how old is your sbcl? 00:42:36 How do I get my inlined strings to also be sane? 00:42:40 I downloaded it just now. 00:42:47 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-179.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:58 1.0.22 00:43:04 linux, 32 bit 00:43:43 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:44:46 C-h C RET in emacs might give some clues 00:44:48 -!- vorian is now known as heHATEme 00:45:25 utf-8-unix, in the source buffer. 00:45:33 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:45:39 for the "this buffer" part? 00:45:40 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:45:44 (top) 00:45:49 yes 00:46:20 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:34 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 00:50:50 okay, I think I know what's happening. 00:51:03 The standard-page macro was responsible for doubling my utf-8 encoding. 00:51:50 Because while I setf'd those variables, I also did (setf (reply-external-format) *utf-8*) in my standard-page macro 00:51:58 now that I've removed that, everything works fine. 00:53:29 aren't character sets fun? :) 00:53:35 yay! so *happy* 00:53:42 character sets are so fun. 00:53:52 I'm just glad that I now understand what was going on. 00:54:12 the reason it worked in slime was further doubling 00:54:28 mogunus: don't forget you don't have /index.html yet, only /home 00:54:31 slime set *standard-output* to another utf-8 stream. 00:54:39 ugh. 00:54:48 *mogunus* nods 00:55:05 this is just a test website, not ready for public consumption yet. 00:57:49 fwiw, this might be too late, but if most of your pages are static you might be better of with a template thing like html-template, not something that generates pages dynamically 00:58:37 There's actually a lot of dynamic generation. 00:58:53 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:58:55 Cross-referencing authors and their articles, generating the indicies from an index list of the journal, etc. 00:58:58 Maybe that's not a lot? 00:59:07 -!- lisp-newbie [n=user@c-76-118-78-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:08 Generating results from searching fulltext articles. 01:00:30 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:00:41 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D86B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:00:41 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:01:01 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 01:01:04 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:22 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:48 I actually have no idea what constitutes lots of generation 01:02:14 You could always just put a cache in front of it later, if it's an issue. 01:04:02 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:04:14 I might need to do that. 01:04:18 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 01:04:20 I've never programmed for the web before. 01:04:22 -!- lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:04:33 lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:28 intermediate caches can also be useful 01:05:54 for instance, if you have an expensive-to-generate section of a page, you can cache that, and generate the rest dynamically 01:09:41 Would I need to do that inside of lisp? 01:10:02 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:13:36 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:13:39 or is there software that can sit btween lisp and requests and just deal with it? 01:13:48 yeah, use something like Pound 01:15:00 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 01:15:24 You just need to make sure that your headers correctly report cache related info, so that the pages can be cached and updated correctly. 01:15:49 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:15:58 how would I do that? 01:16:07 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:16:14 read pound docs, include code to manipulate headers using hunchentoot header accerssors? 01:16:22 yes 01:16:34 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-3481e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["leaving"] 01:16:41 just a general question... how big/complex a project would a basic CMS be? 01:17:57 sykopomp: a "basic CMS" in cl is _badly_ needed 01:18:08 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.76.207] has joined #lisp 01:18:19 fusss: hence why I'm wondering how big a project it is. I kinda want to do something to learn to do web stuff. 01:18:19 As stupid as this sounds 01:18:21 what would it need to include? 01:18:29 (given how dumb my questions have been) 01:18:33 repnop [n=Mage@adsl-69-226-106-197.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:42 I think I might be close-ish to a very basic cms. 01:18:50 madnificent: I'm thinking a blog and basic page manager would be nice. 01:18:53 mogunus: awesome! 01:19:02 I 01:19:04 sykopomp: get something that can let users "add story", sorta like Drupal but much much MUCH smaller, and i can get you a corporate sponsor 01:19:10 'm actually integrating a blog. 01:19:52 look into it and let me know when you wanna go ahead :-) 01:19:59 fusss: heh. I don't trust myself with anyone's money. I'll write it, and you can get me sponsored if you think it doesn't suck :) 01:20:10 Heck. I'll link you to it when I'm done. 01:20:21 See if it's non-crappy enough to be sponsered. 01:20:22 go for it. 01:20:37 i must have written 10 'basic cms' so far in cl .. 01:20:38 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-179.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:21:08 it's not a big project really. 01:21:15 neat 01:21:22 something that lets the end user add content to the site, edit previous stories, and basic ACL to let a certain number of users add stories, edit, delete, and all others to view 01:21:26 well, it's not a big project using UCW .. 01:21:50 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:21:52 what's the state of UCW anyways? 01:21:53 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:21:53 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:22:20 sykopomp: -core has been released, docs are being written, world domination still forthcoming. 01:22:32 fusss: hey, that actually sounds like a pretty simple project (assuming you're using one of those CPS frameworks like ucw/weblocks) 01:22:39 drewc: docs?! Where?! 01:22:43 want! 01:22:52 sykopomp: just evaluating ucw and weblocks 01:22:57 sykopomp: 1/2 written.. but in the repository. 01:23:12 sykopomp: next week it should get a lot more beef. 01:23:32 Truth be told, I fear UCW. I've tried to mess with it a couple times in the past and could never quite figure it out. 01:23:34 drewc: Does it have decent setup/configuration stuff yet? 01:23:58 sykopomp: what do you mean? 01:24:27 mogunus: my docs remove all fear! 01:24:36 or .. will 01:24:36 drewc: that's really exciting, actually. 01:24:49 as soon as they're up, I'd love to take another crack at it. 01:24:53 i introduce the complex parts from the bottom up... 01:24:58 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 01:25:05 another thing i can get buyers for is a control panel for web host resellers. I make small chunk of money maintaining SiteCenter, it's in php and it sucks. clone that fucker, maintain it, and i will forward you the people who are bugging me. 01:25:23 fusss: I'm writing one of those actually. 01:25:29 web host resellers? 01:25:39 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.76.207] has left #lisp 01:25:45 fusss: i wrote one of the first commercial panels back in the day .. so it's actually my speciality :) 01:25:51 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:25:52 drewc: dammit. you have my number. show me a demo and you get my rolodex, free :-) 01:26:04 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:06 fusss: what are you working on right now, by the way? 01:26:27 fusss: will do. 01:26:33 drewc: do you know about the weird multilevel marketing schemes built into these? profit trickles up the chain, etc. really soul sucking stuff. 01:26:57 cl doesn't seem like a great platform for one of those web control panel things 01:26:57 sykopomp: i just got hired to manage a flash/mobile video game company 01:27:06 into web hosting resellers you mean? 01:27:07 and i'm trying to get rid off all my previous engagements 01:27:23 you'd presumably want something with good simple os integration 01:27:33 drewc: yeah. SiteCenter has a financial module that knows who sold to who, referal management. 01:27:36 yep, the whole web hosting reselling thing is shady 01:27:54 yeah .. i worked for one of the founders of the field, inquent/webhosting.com 01:28:21 i know all about it.. intimately. 01:28:39 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:30:08 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:30:10 we'll talk soon drewc, just gotta clear a few things off my table first 01:30:20 drewc: hey, I meant to ask. Have you checked out mudballs? 01:30:22 fusss: you know how to reach me. 01:30:25 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:30:37 yep :-) 01:30:39 sykopomp: i had a look at the docs and webpage 01:30:39 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178046056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:30:47 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:30:53 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178046056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:31:11 looks like it might even work.. i'd like to try it certainly. 01:31:23 I'm sort of wondering if an extra versioning thing could be added to have it manage version control versions as well. 01:31:23 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [No route to host] 01:31:32 or rather, latest pull from VC 01:31:43 it'd be nice to have a viable asdfreplacement 01:31:58 asdf has enough quirks to be a little irriating 01:32:13 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.214.241] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:32:21 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.59.46] has joined #lisp 01:34:18 drewc: is http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/repos/ucw_dev the repo you're working on ? 01:35:29 fe[nl]ix: negative. http://common-lisp.net/projects/ucw/repos/ucw-core/ is the new UCW 01:35:56 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:36:06 *sykopomp* yanks 01:36:20 mikezor [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:37:34 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 01:43:45 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.10] has joined #lisp 01:45:24 ths_ [n=ths@X46fd.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:46:45 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:54:28 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:55:27 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 01:58:14 drewc: you forgot to mention cl-mime as dependency in getting-started.txt 01:58:36 -!- damianc [n=damian@unaffiliated/dconway] has quit [] 01:58:48 fe[nl]ix: that's a new dep actually .. but yeah, you are correct.. 01:58:57 *drewc* feexes 01:59:28 i'm trying to run ucw-boxset and (load "start.lisp") depends on swank? 01:59:36 -!- ths [n=ths@X4e83.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:59:57 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:33 fusss: indeed .. but don't do that 02:00:44 how do i fire it up? 02:00:48 ucw-boxset is not at all likely to work. 02:01:07 oh 02:01:18 you'll have to download the dependencies manually. i personally recommend using clbuild 02:01:33 can i copy the stuff in dependencies and then fetch the standalone tarball? or are the deps hacked on as well? 02:01:35 and i will be adding official support for ucw to clbuild RSN 02:01:47 the boxset is probably years old. 02:01:54 however, 02:02:07 rfc2388-binary is also not in clbuild (it seems to live exclusively in ucw) 02:02:35 http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/repos/ucw-boxset/ has the get-all.sh that might get most of them. 02:02:44 (defvar *example-application* (make-instance 'example-application)) <-- also, this part of the manual dies 02:02:55 dies? 02:02:57 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:03:15 gives me a simple-error while computing the class precedence list 02:03:36 says that standard-application is a forward referenced class, and a direct superclass of example-application 02:03:45 what package are you in? 02:03:52 cl-user >_> 02:03:57 ucw-user doesn't exist... 02:04:01 oh ... 02:04:19 I mean, I'm referencing ucw-core:standard-application 02:04:21 <_deepfire> ./la wli 02:04:43 any sbcl hackers here? 02:05:15 defpackage #:ucw-user 02:05:15 (:shadowing-import-from #:ucw-core #:parent) 02:05:15 (:use 02:05:15 :common-lisp :ucw-standard :ucw-core :arnesi)) 02:05:25 sorry for the 4 line paste! 02:05:51 manic12? 02:05:58 sykopomp: you're better off following demo.lisp 02:06:08 the manual is very incomplete. 02:06:27 the demo at least works.. though is only a tech demo and not a good example 02:06:39 (it's mostly to test the features) 02:06:46 pkhuong, what platform do you use? (or platforms) 02:07:18 manic12: darwin, linux and fbsd on x86 and x86-64. 02:07:19 drewc: roger! 02:07:20 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:14 a couple of things I would like to note: 02:08:31 clbuild \o/ just tried it for the first time :-) 02:08:36 first, sbcl for i386-win32 works on vista x64 WOW 02:09:01 manic12: don't change anything, I believe the memory map tends to randomly go bad ;) 02:09:40 second, x86-64-pc-mingw32 compiler seems to be maturing 02:11:00 pkhuong, so you're saying sbcl only looks like it works on vista x64? 02:11:21 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["bye"] 02:11:29 drewc: what's the clbuild name for uncommon web? 02:11:49 fusss: it's not included in clbuild yet 02:12:05 oh, ok. just some of the dependencies are 02:12:10 however, a lot of the deps are.. and it should be pretty easy to add it 02:12:11 manic12: no, i'm saying that I think it's extremely fragile, depending on what/how libraries are loaded. 02:12:12 yeah exactly. 02:13:03 foreign libs? 02:13:10 no, just dlls. 02:13:37 thats what I meant :) 02:13:41 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:13:43 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:14:25 do you need any foreign libs (dlls) to bootstrap a win32 i386 sbcl? 02:15:35 -!- phao_ [n=phao@20158174168.user.veloxzone.com.br] has left #lisp 02:15:44 phao [n=phao@20158174168.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 02:16:15 drewc: mind if I throw the issues I'm running into your way? 02:16:57 sykopomp: for sure . #ucw is appropriate 02:16:58 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:17:40 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:48 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:34 the ucw videos are not on c-l.net anymore. tried to look it up in youtube .. go see it for yourself. just search for "lisp" in youtube and see >_> 02:26:04 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 02:30:52 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 02:35:12 is ucw vital/active? 02:35:33 (it wasn't last I knew) 02:35:46 ((not very anyway)) 02:37:04 JuanDaugherty: drewc's fork is. 02:37:06 fusss: that's ok .. the ucw videos are out of date anyway. 02:37:16 kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:23 fusss: i plan on making some more once i get the manual finished. 02:37:34 pkhuong, ah, thanks, that's new/news2me. 02:37:43 alright, drewc 02:37:43 JuanDaugherty: indeed, quite active. 02:38:08 those who use it all have their own various incompatible forks .. my fork is an attempt to unite them. 02:39:02 *JuanDaugherty* is still on the hunchentoot bandwagon as far as lisp web is concerned, after ucw, and before that cl-http. 02:39:36 drewc: did you merge the lol stuff into this fork? 02:41:19 sykopomp: ish .. ucw-core has the same interface as what was once called lisp-on-lines ucw .. however LoL and UCW serve very different purposes. 02:41:53 but my primary use of UCW is as a backend for LoL, so the parts i will document and maintain reflect that. 02:42:25 so does that mean I can actually try loading LoL on top of this version of UCW? 02:42:40 or is it gonna need a lot of tweaking before that's possible? 02:42:43 ayuh, should even work. 02:43:11 LoL is, however, even less documented than ucw 02:43:18 yeah ;p 02:43:41 tis will be resumed .. the UCW guide i'm writing leads towards LoL 02:43:52 s/resumed/remedied 02:44:34 http://versions.tech.coop/lisp-on-lines/ <-- is this the most recent repo? 02:44:55 let me see. 02:46:47 sykopomp: it is now. 02:46:54 wonderful, thanks 02:46:56 ok, going for a chess game.. bbiab 02:47:04 have fun! 02:47:25 gah .. he's a bit better than me .. it will be hell! 02:47:44 mm... Maybe we should protect trace a bit, so that (trace eql) doesn't land me directly in ldb. 02:49:56 -!- heHATEme is now known as vorian 02:51:09 hmmm, library overload. i think i'm gonna stick to Simple and Familiar :-P 02:52:38 QinGW [n=user@220.231.9.237] has joined #lisp 02:54:26 gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5896ae20b29c68ce] has joined #lisp 02:59:44 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:59:54 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C654.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:17 fusss: ah, no excitement that awy 03:02:25 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:02:54 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:06:02 locklace- [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-5e1bfea5f02c56a1] has joined #lisp 03:07:30 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-19df6602044406fc] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:09:31 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:10:42 interesting: SBCL can build with an EQL that's actually EQ. 03:11:34 how ? 03:12:27 mornin' 03:12:33 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:12:46 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:00 fe[nl]ix: by not failing to build on buggy code. The generic EQL, that is. If the type is tight enough to call the right numeric comparison directly, it will. 03:13:24 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["bye"] 03:16:54 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:16:55 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:17:46 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:18:07 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F0A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:18:21 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:55 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@124-171-110-89.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit ["leaving"] 03:19:00 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:21:23 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:21:33 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:42 *hefner* struggles to reproduce the clouseau gray/black space bug 03:22:03 -!- tsuru is now known as Guest9670 03:22:50 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:57 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:04 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:27:25 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 03:29:56 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:33:49 *schme* starts reading the slime pdf found on reddit then :) 03:37:49 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 03:38:18 grr, fail on my sleep. 03:39:02 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:03 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:39:06 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 03:39:12 cathbad_2468 [n=cathbad_@ip68-226-83-14.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:43 tic: i second that 03:42:15 HET2, insomnia or woke up? (I went to sleep at 0, couldn't sleep until 1, woke up at 04:30). 03:42:40 g'day tic 03:42:44 tic: i had too much caffeine 03:42:46 hi, schme. 03:42:58 HET2, think that's my problem too. funny thing, in the day that does not affect me at all. 03:43:00 HET2: That makes no sense, take it back! 03:43:02 what's a sane way to do regular expressions in cl? 03:43:11 cl-ppcre insane? 03:43:13 cl-ppcre 03:43:15 ok 03:43:25 there's the s-exp version too. but I can never remember what it's called. 03:43:28 schme: it was not coffee - it was evil premium cola stuff 03:43:35 yuck. 03:43:36 supposedly is faster and has nicer syntax for ... something else. 03:43:41 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-6e2de762823358bb] has joined #lisp 03:43:43 tic: cl-ppcre has a sexp version. And then there's irregsexp (?) 03:43:48 Still, making caffeine the villain is bad style ;) 03:44:07 i never claimed i had style :) 03:44:09 pkhuong, that's the one. there's an advantage of the latter over the former, but exactly what omits me. 03:44:12 hah 03:45:15 tic: faster, especially when you have mostly constant strings. 03:45:58 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:46:03 pkhuong, alrightt, so nicer isn't an argument? 03:46:20 probably slower when you use regular expressions to their fullest extent, or obv not working at all for pcre. 03:46:21 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:46:43 tic: I don't know. I think there's both a regular regexp-style and a sexpy syntax for patterns. 03:47:03 pkhuong, thanks for the enlightenment. 03:48:23 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:55 IRREGSEXP 03:49:56 err 03:50:01 Server responded 404 for GET http://www.cliki.net/IRREGSEXP?download 03:50:22 oh sorry 03:50:58 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irregsexp/ 03:51:18 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:20 I guess I should commit my jump table patch and tell him to benchmark again (: 03:52:03 *tic* tries building the docs for McCLIM. 03:52:10 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:52:37 -!- phao [n=phao@20158174168.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:53:37 *HET2* tries figuring out how to translate "^#.*" to irregsexp 03:53:58 maybe you need to anchor it at the end? 03:54:20 HET2: (eql (aref string 0) #\#)? 03:54:26 -!- eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:54:51 ohhh aref 03:55:22 a string is a vector is an array. 03:56:00 i see 03:56:12 there is also CHAR 03:56:53 how can i try the non-clx backends for mcclim? 03:57:06 actually, never mind 03:58:10 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-96-233-19-73.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:00:44 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:02:11 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:03:27 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.59.46] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:03:34 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.146.162] has joined #lisp 04:04:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 04:08:33 Weird, why does \key expand correctly, but not \body, in the McCLIM PDF? The definition is identical to \key's. 04:08:42 -!- cathbad_2468 [n=cathbad_@ip68-226-83-14.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 04:09:31 kosk [i=da29ba98@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8f81d49adda028b4] has joined #lisp 04:10:59 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:11:10 (require :clim-gtkairo) just works (to try it out, anyway) 04:12:22 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:12:51 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 04:15:53 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 04:24:04 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-108-6.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:24:14 Good morning. 04:24:29 mornin' beach 04:24:44 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A256E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 04:26:19 hey, beach. 04:26:29 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:26:56 tic: how are you doing with McCLIM? 04:27:06 beach, like I said just twenty minutes ago: \body isn't expanded in the mcclim docs, but the definition looks OK, at least comparing to the macro \key 04:27:56 *tic* has to check that out in a couple of hours when brain functionality is restored. 04:29:38 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.197] has joined #lisp 04:33:31 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:46 beach: so, if a few people are interested in doing something along the lines of a climacs/mcclim hacking week... would that be alright? 04:40:13 -!- Guest9670 [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:41:03 yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has joined #lisp 04:42:28 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:42:52 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-108-6.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:43:39 *sykopomp* needs to get better at selling ideas. 04:44:49 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-108-6.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:46:07 sykopomp: that would be great! 04:46:28 sykopomp: do you have anything in particular in mind? 04:46:53 most likely it would be mainly climacs hacking, but I'd love to hack on mcclim, too 04:47:22 I've just been talking to a couple of friends, and they said they would be interested in possibly spending a week (probably in January) just hacking stuff on climacs/mcclim 04:47:37 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:47:37 sykopomp: OK. I just meant what kind of hacking? Adding new functionality? Preventive maintenance? 04:47:41 I'm sure I can gather a couple more people. 04:47:45 honestly, whatever the devs need. 04:47:58 Most likely trying to fix annoying bugs (like the focus bug, if it's still around by then) 04:48:00 sykopomp: Hey, I'd be interested in that. 04:48:07 or minor feature additions 04:48:12 I mean, you can't do much in a week :P 04:48:22 yet you can do a lot 04:48:27 Still, that sounds like a fantastic idea. 04:49:04 but yeah, it would most probably require a small list of possible issues to be compiled for people to pick from, and maybe just some availability in the channel for communication and questions 04:49:37 hah, the focus bug. funny you mention that. I'm here digging through the icccm and random postings trying to figure this out (again). 04:49:45 hahaha 04:49:46 sykopomp: If it's before January 20th I'll be in Vietnam, but that just means I'll come here at a different time of day. 04:49:53 maybe the icccm passive focus model just doesn't work on my WM (or yours, or whoever elses) 04:50:36 beach: shouldn't be much of a problem, we're usually pretty resourceful and used to finding answers by ourselves if we can. 04:50:43 -!- kosk [i=da29ba98@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8f81d49adda028b4] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 04:50:56 and pointers to the right place to look can usually be given asynchronously, etc 04:51:22 I should make another attempt to use Climacs as my preferred editor for some specific task (such as editing Lisp code), and just systematically document annoying behavior and fix the easy problems. 04:51:36 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 04:51:40 hefner, passive focus being focus follows mouse? 04:51:54 I can't even compile a function in climacs without getting a swank error :( 04:52:29 sykopomp: Do you mean with C-c C-c? 04:52:42 yeah 04:52:44 tic: no, that should be up to the window manager. passive focus just says the window wants to receive keyboard focus whenever the window manager feels like assigning it, and doesn't want to participate in the more elabore wm_take_focus dance 04:52:50 sykopomp: oh, that's bad. 04:52:55 yeah 04:53:06 *elaborate 04:53:47 hefner, OK, so it might be the case that the window manager doesn't feel like assigning focus to the input pane, then? 04:53:52 I guess they wouldn't call it the X WIndow Disaster if it worked as advertised 04:54:02 But they don't! 04:54:20 You should switch to the X Window _System_, hefner 04:55:05 I'll hold out for [hypothetical lisp operating system] rather than change my habits 04:55:13 beach: SWANK::Compiler-notes-for-emacs is undefined 04:55:26 this might be a library version issue 04:55:34 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:56:19 -!- yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has left #lisp 04:56:43 sykopomp: yeah, sounds like SWANK evolved and Climacs didn't follow. 04:57:18 I said depending on swank was a bad idea.. better to rip off the internals :) 04:57:54 hefner: perhaps, but it avoids having to maintain a big chunk of code. 05:00:13 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:02:56 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4526F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:56 what really bugs me is being forced to update slime to follow climacs :) 05:06:21 That's not optimal, but I think it made the thing possible with limited resources in the first place. 05:07:04 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E438AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:11:57 *beach* updates McCLIM and rebuilds the clim.core file. 05:13:56 someone should take sawfish, replace rep with CL, and call it "clawfish" 05:14:20 beach, is mcclim.texi supposed to be the master documentation? 05:14:35 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 05:14:44 tic: I can't remember. 05:14:56 tic: I'll see if I can find the answer for you. 05:15:20 It seems to be, according to Makefile. There are some directives in mcclim.texi that texi2dvi doesn't understand. \nil\ for one. 05:15:59 tic: The documentation was heavily modified by Athas. Since then I have tried to build it a few times, but never succeeded. 05:17:00 beach, it builds fine on my end, it's just broken in some places. 05:17:44 It doesn't build here 05:19:14 well. This is interesting. I decided to launch startkde while stumpwm was running. KDE's plasma turned into a regular window, and I'm playing around with it while still running regular, tiled stumpwm. 05:19:32 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1E899.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:37 tic: it tries to find fun-drei-drei-instance.texi and can't so it stops. 05:21:41 segv [n=mb@p4FC1D2D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:52 tic: included from drei.texi 05:21:56 do you have such a file? 05:22:44 Yeah. 05:22:53 docstrings/fun-drei-drei-instance.texi 05:23:09 hmm 05:24:03 *beach* tries to do a make clean first 05:25:08 Ah, much better. 05:26:13 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:26:44 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 05:26:56 tic: so can you give me an example of the brokenness that you were referring to? 05:27:24 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:28:09 tic: I wonder if \nil\ should be @cl{nil} instead. 05:29:37 beach, yeah, those things. 05:30:02 beach, or \body in the PDF, p55. (logical p29), for with-output-to-output-record. 05:30:32 I find this really baffling. I think a plain CLX app with one window gets usable input focus. why does god hate mcclim windows? 05:31:26 beach, there are a zillion docstrings generated, but they don't seem to be used at all in the master mcclim.texi, even though it's more complete. 05:31:51 tic: sounds like there is some work to be done. 05:32:34 It would be a good thing to have a semi-complete and accurate manual. 05:33:18 hefner: Don't you think McCLIM is discarding the events? 05:33:50 hefner: That can easily be checked by tracing some low-level event handler. 05:34:30 beach: it isn't the first thing I did was to trace clim-clx::event-handler 05:35:13 hefner: OK, I should have known. Sorry. 05:36:03 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:36:11 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Murrr..."] 05:36:40 beach, how do you feel about clim:w-o-t-o-r vs w-o-t-o-r on p35 at http://common-lisp.net/~mjansson/mcclim.pdf ? (former from autogenerated docstring, latter manually typed in) 05:40:31 tic: The choice is clear. 05:41:11 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:42:16 tic: Where did you get the text from? 05:42:26 tic: I am asking because we have the source of the spec. 05:42:54 beach, docstrings/macro-clim-with-output-to-output-record.texi 05:43:24 tic: So you are saying that the extraction of the docstring is not working? 05:43:57 ... or that the extracted docstring is not used? 05:43:58 beach, the extraction of the docstring is working. However, it is not used in mcclim.texi. 05:44:03 ah 05:44:07 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:44:30 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.197] has joined #lisp 05:44:32 tic: so rather than typing it again, wouldn't it be easier to have it be used? 05:44:46 the better choice, I think, would be to go through all --* and include them in the appropriate place. 05:44:49 beach, exactly. 05:44:58 yeah 05:45:41 that'd require some post-processing of mcclim.texi, unless done as a one-off operation (simply adding them all into mcclim.texi). 05:46:01 how stable is the list of symbols exported by the various packages? will it change often? 05:46:01 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 05:46:37 the symbols exported by the CLIM package should not change at all. 05:47:15 docstrings.lisp only looks at external symbols (do-external-symbols), so that means it's stable. 05:48:00 at least for the CLIM package, yes. 05:48:18 doesn't apply for DREI and friends? 05:48:40 Much less so. 05:50:00 *hefner* can never remember how to use gdb, keeps going the wrong up along the stack and trying to type cmucl debugger commands 05:50:28 list, bt, up, down, all you need to know! 06:01:36 mek||malloc [n=mek@c-76-118-78-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:32 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-6e2de762823358bb] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:07:02 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:09:00 -!- wol [n=wol@c-98-207-131-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:09:13 beach, turns out the autogenerated docstrings were used in most cases. anyway, if you feel like applying the few functions I found, here's http://common-lisp.net/~mjansson/mcclim.texi.patch 06:09:37 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:10:46 *tic* wanders off trying to make himself useful. 06:13:07 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 06:13:25 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.197] has joined #lisp 06:13:38 tic: thanks! 06:13:59 is that normal to get a ton of style-warning conditions when connecting to a remote sbcl hosted swank instance? o_O 06:15:25 you win this time, dear PHP, you really do. 06:15:39 Php is yucky. 06:15:46 And abused. 06:16:06 maintaining this PoS is nothing short of getting into a shouting match with a crazy homeless guy. nothing ever justifies it. 06:19:17 -!- gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5896ae20b29c68ce] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 06:19:58 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-5178f4ac23374d39] has joined #lisp 06:20:26 OCaml still looks ugly in cl. 06:20:28 Damn shame. 06:21:47 What are you referring to? 06:21:59 A shitty implementation of OCaml in cl. 06:22:08 ah 06:22:13 Prolog actually looks quite beautiful in cl. 06:22:43 There's a wonderful article in the ACM digital library on implementing Prolog in cl; I sure enjoyed it. 06:24:31 i've had a long day of haskellites trying to convince me that nomads are sexy. i'm going to attempt to sleep it off 06:24:36 g'night. 06:24:39 -!- mek||malloc [n=mek@c-76-118-78-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:25:41 nite 06:26:25 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:47 gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-525b2eb5fe918531] has joined #lisp 06:31:13 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:29 -!- gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-525b2eb5fe918531] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 06:47:39 -!- yoeljacobsen [n=yoeljaco@85-250-23-223.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:48:04 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:52:17 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:00:51 waterh [i=3ba24401@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3b757a923914f9df] has joined #lisp 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09:10:52 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:20 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:12:22 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:42 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:17:34 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:22:32 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 09:23:00 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:25:25 bartiosze [i=bartiosz@nintendos.pl] has joined #lisp 09:27:25 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.128.246] has joined #lisp 09:31:29 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:06 -!- locklace- is now known as locklace 09:46:29 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:48:05 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:49:21 lisp-newbie [n=user@c-76-118-79-166.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:21 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:50:22 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:27 hello ppls 09:50:33 Welcome back, fusss. 09:50:38 And hello Harag. 09:50:58 Harag pasted "More Lispy way " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71790 09:51:08 -!- crod [n=cmell@d28851-016.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:51:17 Is there a more lispy way of doing the above paste... 09:52:52 *shrug* Not that I know of. 09:53:07 yes :-) 09:53:16 Unless you want to traverse the list manually. 09:53:21 Recursively. 09:53:29 Instead of dolist, that is. 09:53:30 (format t "~{~A=value-thingy~^&~}" key) 09:53:43 well, (format nil ...), sorry 09:53:45 ^ Xof would know a lot better than I would. 09:54:09 bonus points, with my version you don't get a stray "&" at the beginning :-) 09:55:12 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:55:39 will format handle more than one list? 09:56:11 lets say I added a value list aswell? 09:56:45 it will handle a list of lists, so if you had your data in the form ((key1 value1) (key2 value2) ...) it would be OK 09:57:07 nope my data comes in two lists 09:57:16 So, cons them together. 09:57:31 Or perform the format on the cons, rather. 10:00:32 crod [n=cmell@cad43e-166.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:00:39 would a recursive version using with-out-put to string not be a bit more flexible and scale better to larger string concats? 10:00:54 with-out-put-to-string 10:02:15 eish 10:02:22 I can't comment as to the trade offs between programmer convenience and program complexity -- I am a newbie. 10:02:41 cant read or type this morning .....with-output-to-string 10:03:11 Oh crap, it is morning, isn't it? 10:03:16 Seems to be 5:00AM. 10:03:18 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:03:39 Darn. 10:03:42 -!- lisp-newbie [n=user@c-76-118-79-166.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 10:03:42 a recursive version is almost certainly not the right answer 10:04:13 then with-output-to-string + dolist/map 10:04:27 with-output-to-string is way better than string concatenation, simply in algorithmic complexity terms 10:06:08 ok thanx 10:06:54 let me go and try with-output-to-string and do list and see if i can get it to work for me 10:09:12 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:09:31 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:12:54 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@66.Red-83-34-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:14:48 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:18:18 hhuu [n=hhuu@61.14.130.209] has joined #lisp 10:25:43 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:33:25 -!- yakov [n=yakov__@213.170.102.170] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:41:09 This is just a thought: when programs are written in a functional style in CL, the compiler shouldn't have much trouble to use multiple workthreads to calculate the result of a function (right?) 10:42:42 madnificent: Two problems: the compiler must prove that functions that are called have no side effects, and the overhead of creating a thread might be worse than just doing it sequentially. 10:43:54 beach: workthreads can sit in a pool, and the user would need to specify which functions have no side-effects :) 10:46:03 madnificent: Not quite. If you are going to do things in parallel, you need to make sure that spawned threads inherit the environment of the parent thread. Thus, you cannot have threads sitting around because they will most likely have the wrong environment. 10:46:58 madnificent: Furthermore, you need synchronization to make sure one thread doesn't clobber the data structures of another, and synchronization is either costly or very hard to write (at least for now). 10:47:00 beach: and there is no construct to allow for a shift of the environment? 10:47:04 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad43e-166.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:47:45 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:47:49 madnificent: No, the usual semantics of threads in Lisp is that they start in the global environment. 10:49:53 madnificent: This is a general problem of parallel programming: you need to find chunks of work that are large enough that it is worth the effort to spawn a thread and to have to synchronize with other threads. 10:52:39 beach: you could let the user specify that the arguments of the function he has given, should be calculated in parallel... (which is not what I was saying) That could make parallel computing an easier task (and it would be the user's responsability) 10:53:55 madnificent: These ideas have all been suggested and exploited in the past. Some of them work better than others. 10:54:05 -!- hhuu [n=hhuu@opensuse/member/xwhu] has quit [] 10:54:28 ahh, hard to innovate in a 40yo language :) 10:54:48 madnificent: They have not all been exploited in the context of Lisp of course. 10:55:10 madnificent: see http://www.amazon.com/Parallel-Lisp-Languages-Systems-Computer/dp/0387527826 for a number of papers on the topic. much of it is obsolete, but it is interesting nevertheless. 10:55:12 crod [n=cmell@cb8a6f-031.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:55:53 bookmarked, ty H4ns 11:02:02 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-5178f4ac23374d39] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:02:14 oh, I had a CLOS question. Is there a way to allow a :after method to modify the result (returned value) of the previously called method? (it's probably possible with special variables, but is it cleanly possible) 11:04:07 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:48 how do i make a pair in common lisp 11:04:49 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:05:00 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:09 HET2: ? 11:05:15 clhs cons 11:05:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_cons.htm 11:05:20 ah, thx 11:05:36 HET2: that's like asking "how do I do an assignment in C". 11:05:45 madnificent: no. 11:05:55 beach: i agree :) 11:06:16 justin` [n=justin@cpc3-broo2-0-0-cust711.renf.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:33 H4ns: understandable, but still somewhat unhandy for me right now 11:06:46 madnificent: your design is faulty :) 11:06:46 HET2: you came here the first time in September of 2005, and you haven't learned about CONS yet? 11:06:56 madnificent: you could use an :around method. 11:07:04 H4ns: yes, it is :) 11:07:13 H4ns: around does allow it? 11:07:19 madnificent: yes 11:07:30 thanks! 11:07:48 madnificent: (1+ (call-next-method)) 11:08:00 beach: i have 11:09:01 HET2: I guess I didn't understand what you were asking then. 11:09:08 shmho [n=user@58.142.35.171] has joined #lisp 11:10:18 beach: exactly what you responded, thanks for your help 11:13:15 clhs probe-file 11:13:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_probe_.htm 11:17:54 -!- justin` [n=justin@cpc3-broo2-0-0-cust711.renf.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:19:33 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 11:20:11 lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 11:20:47 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:22:34 jpcooper [n=justin@cpc3-broo2-0-0-cust711.renf.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:35 -!- jollygood_______ [n=jolly@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:25:02 jollygood_______ [n=jolly@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:26:09 heheh, I like Tilton's ASDF rant 11:28:20 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:29:51 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:27 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:30:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:32:47 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 11:32:48 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:33:06 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:29 rsynnott: link? 11:35:30 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:36:54 madnificent: See Xach on Planet Lisp: "A few links". 11:37:11 http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/2008/12/beginners-guide-to-asdf-ha.html 11:37:19 actually, his whole blog is very, very funny 11:37:25 it should be on planet.lisp :) 11:38:18 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:41:09 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:41:55 so, it's mudballs all the way? ^_^ 11:44:03 besiria [n=user@ppp083212085113.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 11:44:46 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 11:46:47 Maybe. 11:47:55 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 11:51:07 madnificent: I wouldn't take ASDF replacement suggestions from someone who claims to have used ASDF for ten years, given that it was released in 2001. 11:51:27 heh 11:52:03 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:52:30 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:38 lichtblau, so you don't consider Mudballs a feasible replacement? 11:54:14 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:54:56 -!- Madars [n=null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:42 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X46fd.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:48 tic: he actually didn't state anything about that... But I am curious too :) 11:56:14 tic: I have no opinion at all on mudballs, because I haven't looked at it yet. 11:57:02 vy [n=user@88.227.109.200] has joined #lisp 11:57:05 Kenny's blog is just not a good source on ASDF advice, and I suspect that it's not going to be a good source on mudballs advice either. It may be _funny_ (depending to personal taste), but definitely not helpful. 11:57:57 His suggestion to post backtraces to comp.lang.lisp is very misguided, for example, because that's the wrong place to ask for help with a lisp library. (The library's mailing list is the right place.) 11:58:02 hello ppls 11:58:25 lichtblau: Nowadays, c.l.l is very misguided. 11:58:40 is 'industry_number = (read-from-string "industry_number") 11:59:30 lichtblau: points taken :) 11:59:40 -!- Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has left #lisp 12:00:00 Harag: no, you can't use the Lisp `=' function to compare such things. 12:00:08 lol 12:00:18 I am aking conceptually 12:00:45 Harag: well, that's not good enough because there are several interpretations of what = means. 12:00:54 As for mudballs, the only aspect I found intriguing in its description was that it uses a slightly different technical approach compared to ASDF's "plan first, execute later" strategy. 12:00:57 Harag: yes, it is (afaik), but isn't industry-number what you want? 12:00:59 tic: However, I think that defsystem facilities are successful or not depending on whether they can build a community of users, not depending on minor technical details. 12:01:02 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:01:27 Harag: and it will depend on things like the current package when you read one or the other. 12:01:45 ASDF was a huge leap forward compared to mk:defsystem in terms of extensibility and code maintainability. Mudballs looks like a much smaller change compared to ASDF. 12:02:30 mudballs resolves the unpleasantness on windows, I think 12:02:39 (fun with symlinks!) 12:02:57 rsynnott: ASDF works great without symlinks, too. 12:03:20 Harag: Also, using abbreviations like ppls is frowned upon in this channel. 12:03:26 beach: its in the same package 12:03:53 yeah, that's what I just don't get about the ASDF haters. There are good reasons to find it suboptimal in respects, but why bother making stuff up and lying about it? 12:03:54 (slot-value dao-instance 'industry_number) 12:03:55 rsynnott: Installing your own asdf:*system-definition-search-functions* really isn't much harder than installing your own directory into asdf:*central-registry*. People are doing it all over the place. It's just wrong when people claim that ASDF has a problem on windows. 12:04:13 if I access the slot in the above way it works 12:04:17 lichtblau: it's more that it's non-obvious, I suppose 12:04:37 Xof: I have the same impression about CLIM/McCLIM haters. 12:04:46 rsynnott: it is not non-obvious at all 12:04:50 rsynnott: You can find an example directly on the cliki page for asdf. 12:04:51 but if I (slot-value dao-instance (read-from-string "industry_number")) then it does not find the slot 12:04:57 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:05:47 Harag: try (describe 'indusrty_number) and (describe (read-from-string "industry_number")) 12:06:01 (without the typo) 12:06:10 k 12:06:22 I may just not have used lisp on windows enough 12:06:40 I only tried for the first time recently, and a quick google didn't turn anything up 12:06:43 ths [n=ths@p549AF321.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:45 re 12:06:47 should have tried cliki, of course... 12:07:17 Not sure how many Lisps ship with a ready-to-go ASDF these days. I only know about SBCL, and I don't think you can blame SBCL for not having preconfigured ASDF nicely for Windows, because SBCL doesn't work that great on Windows yet anyway. 12:07:26 manuel_: yo! 12:07:51 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:00 I dunno, maybe we should, just to confuse everyone 12:09:50 beach: the read ends up in common-lisp-user 12:09:59 yep, sbcl and clozure 12:10:13 (which is also alpha/beta on windows) 12:10:24 though coming along remarkably quickly, it seems 12:14:57 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:15:50 lichtblau, *nod* 12:17:28 Harag: well, then that must be the current package when the read-from-string is executed. 12:17:58 the read-from-string is executed in a package called dx-web 12:18:23 What evidence do you have for that? 12:18:59 and it looks like you cant specify the package for read-from-string 12:19:18 -!- waterh [i=3ba24401@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3b757a923914f9df] has left #lisp 12:19:23 I did the describe for both as you sugested... 12:19:54 in the dx-web package 12:20:37 Harag: you can change the package like this (let ((*package* (find-package ...))) (read-from-string "mumble")) 12:21:07 Harag: I was asking what evidence you had for the current package being dx-web when the read-from-string is called. 12:21:47 the read-from-string is called in a function in the dx-web package 12:21:54 Harag: like, if you replace the read-from-string by (defun my-read-from-string (string) (print *package* *trace-output*) (read-from-string string)) 12:22:09 Harag: what is printed on *trace-output* in this case? 12:23:24 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.128.246] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:29:36 that code runs in a package that uses hunchentoot so I am not sure how to get to *trace-output* ...I tried (str *trace-output*) and that gives me # 12:32:50 eevar2 [n=jalla@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:55 I have only been using lisp for 7 days now so my learning curve is a bit steap...I have played with lisp and read a lot on it over the last couple of years...but this is the first time I am actually attempting to do something serious with it 12:33:11 Harag: OK, how about this then: unless your Common Lisp is buggy, if you execute the call to read-from-string and get back a symbol in the cl-user package, then that is the current package when read-from-sting is called. You have not been able to give any evidence of the contrary, so I suspect you don't know how to determine what the current package is. 12:33:38 most likely 12:34:11 but if the function is ina file that uses (in-package :dx-web) 12:34:33 I would assume that the code is running in that package 12:34:40 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:35:42 Harag: A quoted symbol in that file will be read into that package, but the current package can change as a result of binding (as in (let ((*package* ...)))), so there is no guarantee that the current package when *executing* the code will be the one that the code was *read* with. 12:37:07 ok lets tackle this form a different angle 12:38:47 I get a string from a web page that is the name of a slot in a dao object and I want to use that string to access the slot...how do I go about that? 12:39:10 if I use slot-value it wants a symbol 12:39:11 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:42 maintain an association between string names and symbols (slot names) in some data structure 12:39:58 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 12:40:12 that data structure can be a package, but you might find it easier to have that association be some simpler table-based structure (such as an association list or hash table) 12:40:33 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:43:27 would it not be possible to use a macro to generate the slot-value call using the string? 12:43:35 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 12:44:18 Harag: no need to use a macro: (slot-value dao-instance (find-slot-name string my-data-structure)) 12:45:34 jonathon` [n=user@c-69-242-46-238.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:49 yes but then I have to create such a data structure...could the macro not get round the use of the association structure? 12:46:19 no 12:46:33 darn 12:47:27 ok thanx for the help guys 12:47:35 -!- jonathon` [n=user@c-69-242-46-238.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:48:07 Harag: but if every string you receive corresponds to a symbol in a single package, then you can do the (let ((*package* )) (read-from-string string)) 12:48:18 Harag: as I indicated above. 12:49:01 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:52:10 beach: I am not sure if and where the defclass interns the symbol...all I know is that I need a symbol to use slot-value 12:52:31 HET2 pasted "tokenizer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71800 12:52:44 is there perhaps a smarter way to do this large cond? 12:52:45 You would have known where it interned the symbol if you had done the (describe 'indusrty_number) that I asked for. 12:55:04 beac: i did ...'industry_number is in dx-web and (read-from-string "industry_number") was in common-lisp-user 12:55:51 but then again does 'industry_number not get interned when you call (describe 'industry_number) ??? 12:56:13 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:13 Harag: I know. I asked you to do a (describe 'industry_number) which will tell you the package. 12:56:31 Harag: It gets interned when the code is read. 12:56:49 well the package for that is dx-web 12:57:08 OK, so you know that 'industry_number is in the dx-web package, so you know what package to use for my suggestion above. 12:57:13 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:20 I outputed both describes to the webpage to see 12:57:45 (slot-value dao-instance (let ((*package* (find-package :dx-web))) (read-from-string "industry_number"))) 12:57:47 ok let me try that 12:57:49 thanx 12:58:00 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 13:01:22 ejs1 [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 13:02:29 I just hopped out of bed. And I was thinking...what about a lisp that's, aside from being multiparadigm, it's, by default, multisyntactical. 13:03:34 don't people at least take a shower before talking on irc anymore? 13:03:50 I usually feel like taking a shower after talking on irc 13:03:50 lulz 13:03:58 double lulz! 13:03:59 cmm: I'm going to in a moment. I have to go to the doctor in an hour. 13:04:08 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a6f-031.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:04:17 Quadrescence: thanks for sharing! 13:04:20 hmm can i do recursion on an anonymous lambda? 13:04:27 No problem. ;) 13:04:29 HET2: yes 13:04:40 HET2: extra credit for figuring out how 13:04:44 armicron [n=armicron@87-119-225-104.saransk.ru] has joined #lisp 13:04:47 -!- armicron [n=armicron@87-119-225-104.saransk.ru] has left #lisp 13:04:55 Quadrescence: hint: google for Y-combinator 13:05:30 er, HET2 I guess. 13:05:33 whatever 13:07:24 Aside from lisp's unambiguous S-exps, the other notation I've really liked is Mathematica's "StandardForm". Consider (f a b ...), it's written in Mathematica as f[a, b, ...] 13:08:09 M-exps. *shiver* 13:08:41 Didn't McCarthy try to include M-exps early on? 13:09:47 Yes. It was not successful. 13:10:54 tic: Well, there's no problem if a lisp had both, right? ;) Of course, S-exps would remain dominant, they follow the "programs are data" idea, obviously. 13:11:30 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:31 Quadrescence, yeah, but what's the point? 13:12:45 hasn't there been many people at many times througout history trying to put M expressions in lisp but most of them giving up cos it was a waste of time 13:12:56 Quadrescence: M-exps _were_ included. Died natural death. Every time I see them in old books, I shiver. And yes, I had seen books where the only code was written in M-exps. 13:13:09 tic: let me guess: It's the eternal desire to have more "Lisp programmers", and in order to do that, we have to dumb down the langauge, which will have as a consequence that we will only attract dumb programmers. 13:13:58 beach, I seem to have bad influence on you, because that elitist attitude sounds like me! :) 13:14:27 beach, but yeah, it's funny how the position of the starting paren can matter so much to people. printf(foo) vs (printf foo). 13:14:31 phao [n=phao@189.13.219.96] has joined #lisp 13:15:03 tic: i think it is the (* 2 3) vs 2*3 thing that matters more. 13:15:19 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-3481e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:15:19 tic: Well, it wouldn't require a "lisp-aware" editor. And all I've heard is that "if you're programming lisp, you /neeeeeeeeed/ a lisp-aware editor" 13:15:24 dlowe: hmm the only way i can think of is something along the lines of (let-rec ((recfun #'(lambda (x) (recfun x))))) but i am not sure how to get recfun's return values out of that 13:15:27 Again, I personally like S-expressions 13:15:33 Quadrescence, why wouldn't it require a lisp-aware editor? 13:15:40 Quadrescence: it will require a m-expression-aware editor 13:15:45 tic: bah, I have often been accused of elitism, especially in French newsgroups, where "elitist" seems to used about someone who has the audacity to believe that people should be qualified for the job they are doing. 13:16:12 Another thing is that you need to stop people from thinking Lisp is slow 13:16:15 H4ns, that's probably true, even though the argument is silly. how often does one really do math? Heh. 13:16:29 or from disregarding it as "old" language 13:16:39 beach: More elitism, then. :-) 13:16:55 tic: i'm happy with s-expressions anyway. but then, i also have a hp16c calculator and like it, so maybe i'm just strange. 13:16:55 beach, is that a common French attitude? 13:16:57 Quadrescence: You "need" a Lisp-aware editor because of the significant benefits it confers. If there were a readily-available and stable truly syntax aware editor for other languages, you would be told that you "need" that too. 13:17:04 ths: excatly my opinion. 13:17:12 H4ns: Wow! The 16C is a rare and sexy beast. 13:17:25 minion: chant 13:17:25 MORE ELITISM 13:17:29 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:17:31 tic: only by people who currently have a job they are not qualified for, which is most programmers in this country. 13:17:32 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:32 H4ns, that might be the case ;) 13:17:43 chandler: I suppose I don't disagree. :) 13:17:48 chandler: yeah. i got it for christmas two years ago. about the best christmas present ever :) 13:17:49 beach, are we related somehow? :) 13:17:58 tic: could be. 13:18:18 tic: It sounds like you share common sense, which is more uncommon than it ought to be. 13:18:57 Quadrescence: Regarding a multi-syntactic Lisp, DrScheme essentially implements that, though the other syntaxes are in various states of unfinishedness. 13:19:29 chandler, *insert bad joke about uncommon sense and scheme and programming* 13:19:55 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-24-16-246-158.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:56 Though Mathematica is certainly not a lisp, it kind of resembles one in some ways. `1 + 2*3 + 4/sqrt(5^(x % 8))' is rendered internally as `Plus[1, Times[2, 3], Times[4, Power[Sqrt[Power[5, Mod[x, 8]]], -1]]]' 13:20:18 Quadrescence, is your middle name Xah, by any chance? 13:20:20 Though, I suppose it's probably rendered internally like that in any decent arithmetic parser. :_ 13:20:26 :)* tic: No. 13:20:34 OK, just checking. 13:20:57 Quadrescence: A lot of very, very smart people have trod over this ground before you. I would suggest that when you have an idea, you start by asking questions like "has ... been implemented before?" or "where can I read more about ...?" rather than "I just a great idea! Wouldn't ... be neat?" 13:20:59 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:21:41 chandler: is there a more recent sbcl sparc solaris binary than 0.9.11? 13:22:26 chandler: Bah, I'm just "brainstorming". 13:22:31 HET2: contemplate that you can pass a function as an argument 13:22:31 Quadrescence: Remember that most advanced software engineering technology has failed to get beyond a modicum of adoption, and some of the better yet ideas have simply died on the vine when the university project sponsoring the research lost interest and commercial ventures failed to pick up the idea and run with it (or sell it). 13:22:59 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:01 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:18 athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 13:23:21 Quadrescence: I think one of the things you have yet to learn is that most "novel" ideas in the field of software have already been thought up by somebody somewhere, though perhaps not implemented or evangelised well. 13:23:33 and thus, all progress in software engineering is dependent on the whims and fashions of the proggit crowd 13:24:08 Heh. Bitter, are we? 13:24:36 locklace: No. It doesn't seem to actually build anymore, due to problems with the toolchain. 13:25:36 chandler: ok, i guess i'm screwed 13:25:50 chandler: Maybe so. I didn't expect such options in syntax to be never unheard of before. But I don't think I should just assume everything has been thought of before and just go with what's already there. No, that's not saying what's there isn't good. 13:26:09 Quadrescence: So, to avoid seeming uninformed (which is not in and of itself a problem) *and* arrogant, please try to ask questions about what already exists before presenting your ideas as new. 13:26:27 Well, maybe "arrogant" isn't quite the right word there. I'm not sure what is, actually. 13:26:32 standards for publication in #lisp are very high 13:26:47 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:07 chandler: Any chances for someone picking lisp for SPARC again? 13:27:20 chandler: Arrogant and uninformed? ._. Well, alright. 13:27:41 Quadrescence: I also seem to recall that some early implementations of Dylan had adopted the new M-expression syntax while retaining the S-expression syntax, which might also be something to investigate. 13:28:05 locklace: I'm not sure how I can help. What version of Solaris and what iteration of the toolchain are you using? Is it based on the Sun as or GNU as? 13:28:23 locklace: You might be able to build it with application of a little force, I think. 13:28:31 p_l: Your question does not make sense to me, I'm afraid. 13:29:02 chandler: i have all manner of gcc versions with the gnu binutils, and sun as is also always available. looking at solaris 8 or 9 13:29:23 locklace: Sun as being available is kind of irrelevant - the important factor being what your GNU toolchain is compiled to use. 13:29:33 GCC on Solaris can use either the native ld and as or the binutils versions. 13:31:05 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:31:39 chandler: i know, i have all permutations, but best if it works with the gnu binutils 13:32:11 locklace: I think you'll probably have better success with that than with the Sun versions, actually. 13:32:12 why doesn't gist on github support lisp, and does anyone know if it will in the foreseeeeeable futore 13:32:32 locklace: No harm in trying, eh? 13:32:37 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:32:52 chandler: what's the problem i'll encounter if i try to bootstrap a current release from the 0.9.11 binary? 13:33:03 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:33:17 locklace: None to the best of my knowledge. But if you do encounter a problem, cross-compiling from another system is very, very easy. 13:33:43 chandler: ok, i'll give it a try and see what happens 13:35:32 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:37:48 locklace: Great. I won't be around later today, so if you encounter problems (or success!) an email to sbcl-devel would be appreciated (including details of the machine and toolchain, of course) 13:39:42 chandler: ok, my mail doesn't seem to get through there but will let you know 13:42:45 wow, mudballs looks promising 13:44:16 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 13:45:37 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:56 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:46:57 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:49:02 eeks, mudballs ships a defsystem for cxml in its distribution? 13:49:18 in particular, a defsystem for cxml that's already out-of-date? 13:50:00 KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:06 Not to mention the gazillion of entire projects it includes with sourcecode (presumably because it can't depend on them due to obvious bootstrapping issues). 13:58:21 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:58:46 Quadrescence: The question you're asking about m-expr vs. s-expr is a very fundamental one. 13:59:17 Quadrescence: Indeed, McCarthy started by designing M-expr, and used to write lisp code as M-expr in papers. 13:59:18 \o/ 13:59:57 Quadrescence: but then he invented lisp to be able to manipulate lisp code. To do so, he translated M-expr which is CODE, into S-expr, which is DATA. 14:00:37 So when you write the code f[a,b,C], you translate it as the data (F A B (QUOTE C)) and this data can be processed by code. 14:00:56 For example, you can send this data to eval to be evaluated as a lisp expression. 14:01:24 Now, to understand why we stay with S-expr, you have to try to go backward. 14:02:00 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:02:22 You have this S-expr data. To process it, you need code, so you use M-expr. But if you want to process this code, you could invent a meta-meta-express, MM-expr. 14:02:50 Then perhaps you would want to also process this meta-meta-expression code, so you would have to invent a meta-meta-meta-expression, and so on. 14:03:12 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-190.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:03:57 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:03:59 matimago: but m-expr could be display-only, s-expr being the only internal system, always processable ? 14:04:28 kuwabara: how do you display DATA? 14:05:06 Happily, instead of inventing an infinite number of meta programming languages, McCarthy and Russel realized that you could just write your code as data, the data that is fed to the eval function. So you only need S-expr. 14:05:45 mmmh, I understand. We don't know at display time whether we should switch to m-expr or not if we don't know whether we're processing code or data. 14:06:26 There's no benefit in writting code with a different notation than data, once you have QUOTE. You just write data. Some data can be just data, some can be code, some can be meta-code. Some data that started as just data can sudently becode code, because you write an interpreter for it. No difference. 14:06:40 benny` [n=benny@i577A1D3E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:27 kuwabara: indeed. (boil (water (1 liter))) is it data? is it code? Depends if you are doing NLP or implementing a cooking robot. 14:07:30 ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.87.8] has joined #lisp 14:07:45 matimago: I appreciate this information. My original intent wasn't to argue for or against M-expressions (which is why I didn't use the term originally). Like kuwabara said, f[x,y,z] would pretty much be shorthand for (f x y z). Seemingly, there's no point. But what point is there to have '(a b) as an alternative way of writing (QUOTE (a b))? 14:08:03 And perhaps your NLP module will be connected to the cooking robot, so the same expression will be both. 14:09:30 Quadrescence: 1/ in M-Expression (QUOTE (A B)) is written: [A,B] 2/ people grew borred of typing (QUOTE ...), as soon as their terminals allowed to type ', they prefered to type '... 14:09:55 Quadrescence: in M-expr, upcase denote data, lowcase code. 14:09:58 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2869.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:10:06 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.197] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:12:22 wow, never knew about #'(setf values) 14:12:39 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:13:25 matimago: Right. The uppercase/lowercase is not a distinction I intended. In my notebook, I actually wrote "(f x y) <=> f[x y]". Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from a practical standpoint, one is not always manipulating their code as data (or vice-versa). For example, consider something like (sin 3.0). I don't think there are any cases where one would manipulate the internals of that expression as data. Instead, it would be, a 14:13:25 rguably, more natural and succinct to write sine[x] 14:13:29 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:13:49 Sorry, I meant sin[3.0], not sine[x] 14:13:58 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:32 Quadrescence: code is more often manipulated as data than code. 14:14:35 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 14:14:41 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:14:47 -!- athos_ is now known as athos 14:14:49 Quadrescence: lisp code is manipulated as data in a structural editor (eg. emacs+paredit). 14:14:58 Quadrescence: lisp code is manipulated as data by an interpreter or compiler. 14:14:59 ksergio [n=sgarcia@mail.nuecho.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:19 Quadrescence: the only place where lisp code is manipulated as code would be on a processor that would directly interpret s-expr. 14:15:59 -!- jstracke [n=jstracke@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:16:26 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5201.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:41 Quadrescence: you know the representation of circular lists. (a b c . #1=(d e f g)) can be represented a spoon, where a b c are labels on the handle, and d e f g are labels around the head of the spoon. 14:17:06 Quadrescence: in a way, M-exp and MM-exp, MMM-exp, etc are on the handle, and S-expr is the loop of the head of the spoon. 14:17:11 The handle is useles. 14:17:39 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:33 matimago: Perhaps we should define M-exp so we are on the same page. 14:19:57 Quadrescence: You could see this way: we could store all the programs as S-expr (not necessarily lisp programs). And the editors could load this representation of programs, and display them with the syntax and pretty printing the user likes. 14:20:28 The editor would translate between the user syntax and S-exp. 14:20:41 Right 14:22:00 So this surface syntax could be seen as having the same importance as the font and size used for the text of the program. 14:22:51 Which is what I, in a way, intended. Internally, f[x] would have no meaning at all. It only has meaning to the parser, and it gets converted to (f x), which is, therefore, just syntactic sugar, just as '(..) is. 14:23:52 I think the channel might be overestimating how important I think this really is. 14:24:54 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 14:25:06 Originally, at the very start, I said "I just hopped out of bed. And I was thinking...what about a lisp that's, aside from being multiparadigm, it's, by default, multisyntactical." 14:25:07 Now the problem is unix. In unix, the base abstraction is the character stream. Unix tools deal with these character streams. So when you have in your editor f[x], unix users expect to be able to run a command such as: grep 'f[x]' source.file 14:25:45 That's why as a unix user, I'd prefer to see s-expr in the editor. 14:26:01 Quadrescence: but lisp is already multi-syntactical, thanks to reader macros! :-) 14:26:15 :):) 14:26:36 Or just using something like: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/ 14:29:00 As a side note, and this isn't an intention to flame or anything, but what makes a language like C usually faster than than lisp? This isn't an ignorant question -- I'm not saying C is always faster or every C program written in lisp is faster. 14:29:19 (But I'm not saying I'm not wrong either.) 14:29:35 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 14:29:36 Quadrescence: the fact that the hardware processors are optimized for a C virtual machine rather than a Lisp VM. 14:29:43 Quadrescence - the same thing that makes assembly "faster" than c 14:29:46 This is a egg-chicken problem. 14:30:20 C on LispMachines was slower than Lisp. 14:30:26 So, in essence, if hardware processors mimicked lisp more closely, the reverse would be true 14:30:28 C on JVM is slower than Java. 14:30:41 s/mimicked/supported/ 14:30:46 Indeed. 14:30:46 Quadrescence: in c you have to write every little thing you need by hand, so obviously if you go to all the trouble to do that, you'll have hand-crafted almost-machine-code to solve your problem 14:31:03 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:12 locklace: only as long as your machine has codes corresponding to C operators. 14:31:15 g'day 14:31:28 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:24 locklace: I hand-crafted a wooden bench some years ago, it didn't come out very good. 14:32:28 Quadrescence: in lisp you start with a lot of powerful general-purpose capabilities like all the high-level data structures and their operations, garbage collection, runtime eval and compile, etc. 14:32:45 luis: most things in c don't come out very good either ;) 14:33:30 Is there a common variant of lisp that's smaller in language size (i.e., more basic, less high-level functionality) than CL? 14:33:45 Quadrescence: all that stuff involves some overhead. you can optimize it by "building down" via type declarations and such, and you then end up with code that looks a bit more like c 14:34:03 Quadrescence: while in c you have to "build up" everything you need 14:34:05 locklace: Right 14:34:18 chip founders study existing programs, and try to invent architectures to better suit what they see in existing programs. Compiler writers study existing processors, and try to invent code generation to better suit what they see in existing processors. This is a vicious circle leading to ix86... 14:34:30 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:41 jkantz [n=jkantz@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:45 Quadrescence: you can define subsets of Common Lisp. 14:35:00 Quadrescence: yes, it's called scheme 14:35:01 Quadrescence: you can easily test out such subsets with DEFPACKAGE. 14:35:11 matimago: I advise you go kick Intel's behind to come out with a lisp-based architecture. 14:35:29 Quadrescence: as soon as I have a stick big enough! :-) 14:36:05 matimago: :D Hah, make me chuckle. 14:36:33 pointer tagging, what more does one want? 14:36:37 matimago: I think the circle leading to x86 is more of intel not wanting to innovate in the field and no one having the balls to break backward compatibility with MS DOS 1.0 14:37:15 tic: there could be support for a multithreading GC or even a hardware GC. 14:37:43 -!- phao [n=phao@189.13.219.96] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:37:51 Quadrescence: another thing about lisp is that it's fairly easy to write slow code with it if you don't know what you are doing. how many times do we see people here saying "my program is so slow" and then find out it's because they're using a 10000-element list as a random access data structure? 14:37:54 matimago, hey, I give you one finger and you take the whole hand! 14:38:12 locklace, .... not very often? (do pepole do that?) 14:38:14 matimago: I'd rather take a CPU that did only what I told it to do, like a real RISC 14:38:32 locklace: Hahaha, yes, of course. I didn't mean to make it sound like lisp is slow. 14:38:36 p_l: a microcoded one, so we can implement a lisp processor! :-) 14:39:19 matimago: Maybe I'll bother the people in ##electronics to program an fpga to make me a lisp processor. >:D 14:39:23 I'll take an x86 for running Lisp code over some piece of shit lisp processor any day 14:39:42 phao [n=phao@189.13.219.96] has joined #lisp 14:39:56 *tic* is reminded of himself in Quadrescence a while ago... 14:40:16 Quadrescence: so it is a combination of 1. higher level, 2. programmer grasp of the language, and 3. what matimago said about hw bias 14:40:39 matimago: No microcode. Write a lisp implementation and treat it as microcode (OpenGenera mantra? :D) 14:40:47 Quadrescence: you can program FPGAs yourself: http://www.frank-buss.de/lispcpu/ 14:41:22 p_l: indeed, with the power of the processors nowadays, you can just write a VM and be happy. I love clisp! :-) 14:41:46 Or you can also just consider your lisp implementation a lisp machine, without looking inside. SBCL, or emacs are great lisp machines! 14:42:20 matimago: Hehehe 14:43:10 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 14:43:53 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 14:44:35 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 14:44:39 -!- ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.87.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:44:43 I didn't realize Scheme was so small. 14:45:00 ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.87.8] has joined #lisp 14:45:06 "was" 14:45:38 Quadrescence: one of the best things about common lisp in my opinion is that it has a well defined way of "building down" to get highly optimized code. how many other comparably high level languages give you that ability? 14:46:51 grong999 [n=MoLoT@95-52-146-149.dynamic.komi.dslavangard.ru] has joined #lisp 14:46:55 locklace: Very very few. Which is what I love about CL. I have always had the notion "get it working first, optimize for humans, then optimize for the computer" 14:47:40     = \ 14:47:46 Quadrescence: xach posted a nice recent example of this, http://xach.livejournal.com/199225.html 14:47:58 -!- grong999 [n=MoLoT@95-52-146-149.dynamic.komi.dslavangard.ru] has left #lisp 14:49:13 read those links at the top, they give you an idea of the kind of things you can and have to do to get optimized machine code from lisp 14:49:58 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:45 locklace: interesting 14:52:28 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:54:58 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 14:55:22 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:05 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:41 iirc, that's not really a general overview, so much as some particular tweaks 14:58:46 it's an interesting real-world example, not an overview 14:59:40 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085113.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:16 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:00:29 right 15:00:33 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:00:47 is anybody here running freebsd + tramp? 15:00:56 there are a couple more general discussions of optimization approaches around 15:04:24 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:58 nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:20 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:42 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 15:19:19 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:20:44 Flodis [n=Christia@78.82.248.193] has joined #lisp 15:20:47 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 15:21:32 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:24:11 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:53 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:27 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 15:30:18 matley [n=matley@host40-200-dynamic.41-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:31:28 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:33:25 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.128.246] has joined #lisp 15:33:58 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:57 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:37:20 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 15:41:06 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has quit [] 15:42:20 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-5e1bfea5f02c56a1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:45:38 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["Go Canada!"] 15:46:01 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:46:07 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:14 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:49:28 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-179.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:28 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F278.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:39 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-020e6858e1096bc4] has joined #lisp 15:52:06 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:57:06 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.128.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:57:29 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:58:18 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-140-14.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:59:37 phao_ [n=phao@189.13.215.84] has joined #lisp 16:00:32 any idea why the sbcl run-program.impure test might hang waiting on a child process? 16:00:55 wasabi___ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:03:04 -!- phao [n=phao@189.13.219.96] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:03:13 -!- phao_ [n=phao@189.13.215.84] has quit [Client Quit] 16:03:55 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 16:03:57 Hmm, the Climacs cursor covers the width of the character after point, so if that happens to be a TAB, then the cursor gets very wide. I wonder if that is on purpose or by accident, but I kind of like it. 16:03:57 phao [n=phao@189.13.215.84] has joined #lisp 16:04:18 shh, don't tell people, or they may fix it 16:04:26 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 16:04:32 oops! 16:05:10 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 16:05:32 too late; it is no doubt being replaced with a fixed width picture of margaret thatcher's head in VCS at this very moment 16:06:02 Damn! Me and my big mouth! 16:07:24 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:10:33 pervonisse [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has joined #lisp 16:10:44 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:11:47 I'm looking for a way to traverse a list which has nested lists inside of it (which in turn have lists in it) and apply functions to each element of the different lists 16:12:11 pervonisse: I think the word you are looking for is tree 16:12:22 ah, thanks 16:12:22 pervonisse: when do you stop? 16:12:38 when I have traversed everything 16:12:48 beach: I've always found the behavior of editors when moving the cursor when it is on TAB to be unintuitive: why does it have to jump by so many characters at once on a single arrow key strike ? The Climacs behavior you describe really make sense to me. 16:12:57 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:58 pervonisse: what about the NIL symbol at the end of each list? 16:13:05 pervonisse: (defun maptree (fun tree) (if (atom tree) (funcall fun tree) (cons (maptree fun (car tree)) (maptree fun (cdr tree))))) 16:13:35 kuwabara: I think you are right, and I think that's why I like it. 16:14:50 thanks matimago 16:15:15 lera_zed [n=Valera@minotaur.apache.org] has joined #lisp 16:15:16 kuwabara: I am assuming this must be one of the bright ideas of Athas's. I wish he would come back, or at least tell us why he is not. 16:15:41 I mean, he is on #lisp, but he doesn't utter very many things these days. 16:15:41 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:16:25 hun [n=hun@centipede.RZ.HS-Augsburg.DE] has joined #lisp 16:16:35 ehm what about newLISP ? does anyone tried it out already ? 16:16:46 elderK [n=elderK@203-167-171-245.dialup.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 16:17:13 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:17:24 last thing I heard was "stupid", but you should make your own opinion. 16:17:27 hey, elderK. 16:17:30 lera_zed: That's a funny thing to ask on #lisp by a newcomer. 16:17:54 lera_zed: And that's a question that would typically come from someone like gavino. 16:17:56 beach: ugh, i know, i know but... 16:18:01 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 16:18:15 gavino who's that ? 16:18:37 read comp.lang.lisp. you'll find out soon 16:18:54 lera_zed: someone who never asks questions about Lisp, but instead asks "what do Lispers think about " 16:18:56 notorious troll ? 16:18:57 lera_zed, #lisp is mostly about Common Lisp, in case you weren't aware. I guess we talk about different Lisps from time to time, but mostly not. 16:19:02 lera_zed: yes. 16:19:04 you don't want to know him. really. 16:19:18 lera_zed: what hun said. 16:19:36 *schme* googles up the comp.lang.lisp 16:19:48 so what do lispers think about backgammon anyway? 16:19:49 ;) 16:20:11 schme: You are lucky I don't have chanserv powers :) 16:20:40 by the power of greyskull! 16:20:58 lera_zed: gavino is our goldfish. 16:21:12 lera_zed: As a general rule, I would be very suspicious about something name new. 16:21:33 newruby :D 16:21:36 -!- phao [n=phao@189.13.215.84] has left #lisp 16:22:18 lera_zed: and I would ask myself what the purpose might be. If the purpose is just to be different, or to attract mediocer programmers, I would not have a very positive reaction. 16:22:45 beach: i am not the one to judge 16:23:02 http://www.newlisp.org/ 16:23:26 the problem with naming this "new" is that that there'll be a day when it's not new anymore, but the name is still the same 16:23:30 I think newLISP has been dicsussed and rejected. 16:23:33 All I can say, without looking at the site, is that it's a dumb name. 16:23:39 ya what jsnell said. 16:23:53 IIRC, the speciality of newLISP is the kitchen sink. 16:23:55 jsnell: Hasn't hurt NKOTB ;) 16:23:56 (I think cmucl still has a over a decade old "new-hash-table") 16:23:59 newlisp is a pretty crappy name to be fair 16:24:17 newlisp itself isn't much better (: 16:24:47 jsnell: Yeah, like "postmodernism" and other similar names. 16:25:03 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:25:06 You should do a double bluff maybe, "crappy-lisp" 16:25:13 heh 16:25:28 antifuchs, tried it? 16:25:44 (isn't postmodern that sql mapper?) 16:26:07 willb [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:26:07 Yes, yes it is. 16:26:12 the one that kills my sbcl 16:26:28 tic: I read through the docs once, and have been making fun of it since (: 16:26:30 that's not very nice of it. must be the name. 16:26:40 I think newlisp used to be a running joke here 16:26:55 i've got a weird bug. when i'm running ecl within slime and asdf:load-op cl-ppcre, ecl bugs 16:27:07 using any 2 of them works 16:27:17 Personally, I think of new versions of Lisp in a similar way as I used to think about reorganizations in the company I used to work for. Occasionally, they were justified, but mostly they just gave the illusion of progress by diverting attention from the fact that no progress was made with respect to existing projects. 16:27:23 all versions head 16:27:27 antifuchs, that's kinda where I stand... however I'd like to hear the opinions from someone who has actually used it. :) Superficially, I don't see how it is an improvement over Common Lisp, nor if any of the more interesting/useful features cannot be implemented on top of CL... 16:27:30 can someone verify? 16:27:31 tic: looks like stuff has changed, though (most of all the website) 16:27:33 antifuchs: I read the front page where it says it has the magic of traditional LISP, but is easier to learn. I claim full rights to make fun of it without reading any more. 16:28:01 lera_zed: search comp.lang.lisp for stuff on newlisp 16:28:07 hm, (include "zlib.lsp"). 16:28:10 summary; unbelievably dreadful 16:28:15 I don't think it was meant to be an alternative to /common/ lisp necessarily (: 16:28:31 yeehaw. perl with parens 16:28:39 its memory management scheme was particularly, erm, inteeresting, I think 16:28:44 just what the world needed 16:28:44 lisssp would be a good name actually 16:28:55 i vote for lithp 16:28:57 antifuchs: so was it yet another attempt to attract mediocre programmers put off by parentheses? 16:29:03 hun: yea that's better 16:29:09 beach: more like put /on/ by parens (: 16:29:23 antifuchs: ah, OK. 16:29:24 because otherwise, who'd use it (: 16:29:45 antifuchs: are you still in London? 16:30:09 yes, I am! until dec 22, then for a few more weeks after jan 6 16:30:19 Hah, "Arc vs newLISP, which is better?" 16:30:23 tee hee 16:30:25 "newLISP passes parameters by value and stores intermediate results on a result stack where their memory gets recycled after function return." 16:30:30 beach: they take a different approach to memeory management and lists. 16:30:32 yay! 16:30:39 antifuchs: Make a language that looks like lisp except you have to put a ':' after each '(' and before each ')', it would be more friendly for new programmers. 16:30:50 rsynnott: fortran returneth! 16:30:52 kzar: I bet! 16:30:57 ehm, i am not a lisper myself (scheme does not qualify for lisp here, i presume :) ) however, i've read few interesting articles on wikipedia about lisp machines, is there any modern "lisp optimized" archs/embedded platforms ? 16:30:59 bougyman: Thanks for the summary. When I am bored one day, I might read up on it. 16:31:04 actually, (: would the end-of-line comment marker 16:31:14 beach: are you planning on crossing the channel/ 16:31:15 ? 16:31:23 Thas1 [n=weechat@97-113-43-185.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:42 beach: they also evaluate the operator of an expression before the expression, scheme-style. 16:31:43 oddly, ISTR that is the PHP approach, too 16:31:55 antifuchs: Not any time soon. I am going to Vietnam again for a month, and with the election result, I am considering ILC (a wider channel). 16:32:09 neat! 16:32:15 I'm probably going to attend ILC as well (: 16:32:39 antifuchs: Reserve May 17 for the next party though! :) 16:32:41 awesome :) 16:32:44 oooh 16:32:48 will do (: 16:33:03 ARC = Abnormal Redundant Concept vs. newLISP = Not Enough Wise Lisp ; which is worse??? 16:33:03 Not much Mudball discussion on c.l.l 16:33:12 antifuchs, you coming too? nice! 16:33:17 tic: give it time! 16:33:24 beach, I want it yesterday! 16:33:37 tic: hopefully 16:34:02 tic: You have it. The question is whether you will be the only one. :) 16:34:10 tic: lukego made it last time as well. 16:34:38 tic: and mvilleneuve as I recall. 16:35:14 i think the author should rename mudball to clothier 16:35:23 beach, if I'll be the only one who has Mudball? Yes, good point. 16:35:59 locklace: why is that better? 16:37:12 locklace: It turns out, there are a bunch of names that are a priori negative-sounding, but people get used to them. 16:37:20 locklace: Chaosnet comes to mind 16:37:34 because there just aren't enough packages with names that sound like "closure" 16:37:36 Unix was one of them... 16:37:46 locklace: ah 16:37:47 locklace: hee hee 16:37:56 p_l: yeah 16:38:10 ban the word... used way to often 16:38:25 locklace: I thought they where all one package until the other day.. 16:38:26 you can make variations on the theme, see Let over Lambda 16:38:31 IIRC there was a joke at Bell Labs that they make names that give marketing headaches 16:38:57 locklace: When I settled on "Climacs", the anglophone world complained that it sounded like "orgasm" and the Russians that it sounded like "menopause". Ideal for an application in other words. 16:39:08 beach, :)) 16:39:20 beach: complained about orgasm? 16:39:30 climacs is the best name ever 16:39:42 drewc: I am not sure about their complaints. :) 16:39:46 *drewc* thinks the anglo's have their priorities wrong :) 16:39:54 locklace: I am *very* proud of it in fact. 16:40:05 drewc: I *definitely* agree! 16:40:13 and hemlock is a poison used for killing paedophilic philosophers 16:40:25 *rsynnott* wonders about these anmes 16:40:25 drewc: Violence is OK, but not sex. Go figure! 16:40:30 *names 16:40:44 *tic* gives up on the idea about about reading about newLISP.. 16:41:00 beach: doesn't make any sense to me :) 16:41:15 that's certainly how it seems to work in the states 16:41:18 drewc: right. 16:41:19 -!- Thas [n=weechat@97-113-47-139.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:19 drewc, but then you're canadian, right? 16:41:19 drewc: "AMERICA" 16:41:40 tic: it's not new, it's not LISP .. i never quite got the point :) 16:41:46 (witness the total outrage when GTA, a game where you can kill prostitutes and run people over, had animated sex in it) 16:42:01 tic: In your current state, I would prioritize a bit more, so yeah, I agree, drop newLisp for now. 16:42:26 tic: indeed .. and my mother is french-canadian ... we have a different attitude towards sex than the USAsians. 16:42:32 drewc, I was referring to sex vs violence, but I agree on your points on newLISP. 16:42:42 beach, thanks dad! ;) 16:42:44 <_theHAM> rsynnott: sex makes dads nervous. violence doesn't 16:42:50 tic: welcome :) 16:43:08 beach, I've taken two naps today, as a matter of fact. It's like I've been on anti-caffeine. 16:43:12 as a dad, I have to disagree with that 16:43:26 tic: hey, I am just confirming your choices; not bossing you around! 16:43:31 drewc, attitude: that sounds healthy. 16:43:34 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-30-92.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:46 personally, I could care less about animated naughty bits, or real naughty bits for that matter, but I do find that game disturbingly violent 16:43:47 beach, and I'm reinforcing your confirmation of my choices! 16:43:58 ahem 16:44:10 *tic* hides from the police. 16:44:14 hello Xof (*blush*) 16:44:44 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 16:45:38 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 16:45:53 rsynnott: it doesn't have to be. I've seen someone play it as a driving game. 16:45:55 fhobia [n=fhobia@c-24-6-54-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:39 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:47:20 OK, back on topic: for the 3rd-year undergraduate programming-project course, I am suggesting the work on an information system that I wrote in Common Lisp/McCLIM/ESA. 16:47:31 s/the/they/ 16:47:51 -!- hun [n=hun@centipede.RZ.HS-Augsburg.DE] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:49:02 The previous president of the university paid a fortune for a system that is crappy, requires huge amount of staff, and is inadequate for the Bologna system. My version, with 1500 lines of code (excluding McCLIM and ESA) is already better). 16:49:28 previous sounds like peoplesoft 16:49:31 I hope you weren't surprised. 16:49:35 Actually, that's not quite true because it doesn't quite address the same problems, but once the students are through with it, it will. :) 16:49:37 something I don't seem to be abole to get away from 16:49:42 *able 16:50:00 What does ESA mean? I've seen it referenced, but I can't figure it out from the context. 16:50:07 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-217-250.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:09 Emacs-Style Application 16:50:45 reminds me of the old top ten line from david letterman about the ge laboratory: "hey, this guy just invented a lightbuib that is cheap, efficient and lasts forever -- kil him!" 16:50:47 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:50:52 tic: It gives you a different command parser than standard CLIM with Emacs-style command sequences and M-x for the others. 16:50:56 Thanks. (I was actually guessing on that earlier, but then brain rot happened) 16:51:12 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:51:15 beach, is that something pluggable, in case one'd want to write a, say, VSA? 16:51:38 Of course it is. It's a new command parser / command table, right? 16:51:50 tic: yes, exactly. 16:51:54 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:52:04 Cool. 16:52:16 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 16:52:37 tic: This is why I like CLIM. You can modify large parts of it within the spec, and still take advantage of most existing stuff. 16:53:01 beach, yes, it seems quite extensive. Not that I have done much with it, but the flexibility seems to be in place. 16:53:29 splittist [n=chatzill@34.12.3.213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:53:45 morning 16:53:50 hello splittist 16:54:30 tic: Yeah, I think for a Vim-user like you, you would be much better off with a Vim-like command processor for McCLIM. 16:54:33 beach: universities always have horrible software 16:54:35 it's the law 16:54:39 :) 16:54:43 rsynnott: seems to be :( 16:54:59 beach: hello! (When I saw hefner's change to the default McClim font I wondered what might need changing in Climacs. Looks like not much!) 16:55:00 beach, yes, I am contemplating that possibility. 16:55:18 beach: For the record, that cursor behavior is intentional, to punish people who use tabs. 16:55:22 rsynnott: my colleagues refer to it as a (national) disgrace. 16:55:24 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:55:28 *rsynnott* still gets harassed by graduates office because apparently they are unable to record the fact that I don't want to answer their incredibly invasive questions on my life 16:55:39 Athas: Hey there! 16:55:43 splittist: has been taken care of already. 16:55:58 Athas: Excellent! 16:56:05 Athas: and welcome back! 16:56:16 beach: yes - that was what I was referring to. 16:56:52 Oh, don't get too enthusiastic yet, I still can't remember how to work this git mirror. 16:57:17 Athas: I'm sure you'll figure it out! 16:57:17 beach: you may get in trouble for undermining the resident information services people 16:57:22 git update --all remote # ? 16:57:25 they tend to be rather protectionist, IME 16:57:40 rsynnott: there is very little that can be done to get me in trouble (luckily). 16:57:40 Athas: It's like riding a bicycle - un-natural, inefficient and if you stop it hurts.. 16:58:04 Oh yes, I think I figured it out. 16:58:30 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E475DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:33 rsynnott: waterloo used to have decent software (writting by a small team in CS decades ago, iirc) and then some asshats convinced them to `upgrade' to peoplesoft rather than expand it inhouse 16:59:35 sigh. 17:02:20 Athas: did you read about the plans by sykopomp to gather some people to hack on Climacs? 17:02:41 No, where can I read about that? 17:02:52 in the logs 17:02:59 minion: tell Athas about logs 17:02:59 Athas: please see logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 17:04:34 All of them? 17:04:35 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:05:09 Athas: I usually wget them and then grep, but you can limit yourself to the ones from a few days ago if you like. 17:05:47 yesterday, was it? 17:05:58 Athas: But looking back, I see sykopomp first interrogated about Climacs on 080718. 17:06:02 -!- Thas1 is now known as Thas 17:06:15 tic: yeah, but the logs are in a different time zone. 17:06:22 ah, yes. 17:07:28 Athas: Oh, and you'll be interested in knowing that Denmark and Sweden now have a single consulate in Bx, and we went to lunch at the consul's place last Saturday. His place is called Château Kirwan. 17:07:30 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:08:07 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:09 What does he do? Help lost tourists get home? 17:08:27 beach: no doubt named after the coach of the Japanese rugby team... 17:08:28 Athas: Not just me and my wife of course, but all Swedes and Danes in the region, and we had to pay for it. But he turns out to be a nice guy. 17:08:53 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 17:08:55 Athas: he himself? Nothing I think. But the consulate help people like me renew their passports. 17:09:15 splittist: lost on me. Sorry! 17:09:20 or helps in the case of lost passports/ids :) 17:09:21 Of course he is a nice guy! He represents half of Scandinavia! 17:09:31 Athas: point! 17:09:32 Anyway, what is this, Swank is yet again incompatible with Climacs? 17:09:42 splittist: Kirwan is an Irish name I think. 17:09:58 Athas: so says hefner. 17:10:03 Those Swank developers are so inconsiderate, changing internal implementation details and undocumented unexported interfaces at least twice a year. 17:10:53 "The value NIL is not of type XLIB:VISUAL-INFO" 17:10:56 CLX changed too? 17:10:56 Athas: (sorry, more OT) The food was great, supplied by a Danish caterer. 17:11:03 clx did change 17:11:15 I have seen that error but can't remember what it's about 17:11:26 Athas: I haven't seen that error though. 17:11:40 Just pulled a new CLX, let's see what happens. 17:12:05 *beach* is very happy to see Athas back. 17:13:02 Xof, Athas: did you catch the date of the next party? May 17! 17:13:13 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4526F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:00 So, did Clojure kill Common Lisp yet? 17:15:18 Athas: Is _that_ where you've been? 17:15:33 Athas: don't think that's the intention :) 17:16:02 No, I have been written Moocode, actually! 17:16:16 *sellout* checks Athas' collar for lipstick. 17:16:26 *mvilleneuve* is reading the IRC logs about Climacs and indentation, and wondering about a "right" solution 17:16:31 Athas: Some people (like lukego) seem very excited about it. I expect him to explain the reason for his excitement during the next party. 17:16:53 mvilleneuve: hey, still at work? 17:17:01 Now Moocode was interesting. It's roughly like a weak Lisp (or Smalltalk, maybe) with built-in access control, with the exception that you do development in a live system (like, with users on). 17:17:07 It's amazing it never crashed. 17:17:07 beach: yes 17:17:16 Also it is single-threaded and cooperatively multitasked. 17:17:23 mvilleneuve: no good! 17:17:34 Hm, I figure I should pull a new SBCL. Any interesting improvements there? 17:17:41 beach: I'm actually working on my company project, so it's not that bad :) 17:17:43 mvilleneuve: unless you are doing mostly #lisp work of course :) 17:17:55 mvilleneuve: go mvilleneuve! 17:18:01 hey Xof! how goes? 17:18:02 beach: lisp and java, mostly 17:18:03 mvilleneuve: which indentation issues, btw? 17:18:17 I seem to recall being vaguely unsatisfied with how it works, but nothing definite. 17:18:40 Athas: the issue with proportional fonts, shown by this screenshot: http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/screenshot/handsome-climacs.png 17:18:44 Athas: The one where we use number of characters as opposed to x position, so we can't use a proportional font. 17:19:02 -!- vtl [n=user@nat/redhat/x-19688ef9e190acd1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:19:36 Oh right. 17:19:46 That was not what I was dissatisfied about, however. 17:20:03 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:11 What we really need is a formalism that explains indentation in a way that can be exploited by different applications. 17:20:31 Climacs is not a structural editor. 17:20:56 Athas: indeed. But we have one of those too (or almost). 17:21:12 Oh I remember that. Did you get it to work? 17:21:45 Me? I had a group of students working on it that made significant progress. 17:22:35 Ooooh, Mudballs. 17:22:43 Is that #lisp-sanctioned? 17:23:02 xach seemed to like it, judging by his blog post. 17:23:02 Athas: it look promising! 17:23:34 Athas: i'm thinking of sponsoring further development/infrastructure actually. 17:23:39 I like that it explicitly states that it's inspired by two very succesfull and usable systems. 17:23:58 As much as the idea of a wiki and crypto-signed tarballs pleases my hacker heart, it's just... 17:24:23 yeah ... borked by design? 17:24:56 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 17:25:10 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:25:22 At least not "proven over and over again for more than a decade," so I don't know whether the issues are due to design or simply lack of time investment. 17:25:44 Being conservative in the design of a build- and distribution-system is probably not a bad idea. 17:28:19 Are there any big outstanding Drei issues at the moment, or did I actually leave it in a tenable state? 17:29:35 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:29:47 Athas: I think it's great to see you back, but tonight is the turn or my wife to cook and dinner has been announded. I am going to make another attempt to use Climacs as my default editor for certain tasks. I am sure that will generate some problem reports. 17:30:01 s/or/of/ 17:30:10 I will look forward to those! 17:30:15 hoerup [n=hoerup@62.61.134.78.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:30:26 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:26 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 17:30:33 oh oh 17:30:41 I have a problem with the climacs ;) 17:31:09 hmmm... anyone knows if/when SBCL will get incremental allocation in standard tree? 17:31:20 p_l: probably never 17:31:58 Let me hear your problems! 17:32:11 Also, resolving this Swank issue will be tedious, this is way old code. 17:32:23 Athas: you'll find some asdf- and mudballs-related discussion in the logs from today 17:32:38 Since then I've had a look at the mudballs code. 17:32:38 Athas: My problem is the one when Esc x gives me the cute M-x prompt, while hitting M-x gives M-x is not bound 17:32:39 Just like there is a distinction between asdf and asdf-install, mudballs really has two parts: the SYSDEF package and the autoloaded INSTALLER package. From an API perspective, the distinction seems less obvious in mudballs, but it's really two different systems. 17:33:12 lichtblau: Why? I know that linux VM is borked, but it's harder to change that than provide a compile-time option for incremental allocation (at least so it seems) 17:33:42 schme: That issue happens for some people, but I'm not really sure why. What's your setup in terms of operating system and keyboard hardware? And do you use any keysym mangling software? 17:33:46 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcy186.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:33:48 hi 17:33:58 I think I like the mudballs INSTALLER better than asdf-install, because it uses drakma and archive instead of wget and tar, as far as I can tell. 17:33:58 hello bakkdoor 17:34:24 is there an easy way of sorting a hash table by its values? i cant find anything.. 17:34:25 lichtblau: ahh, I can still remember the tar-pain on netbsd :) 17:34:43 bakkdoor, how would you sort it? grab the keys, sort them, grab values by keys. 17:34:45 bakkdoor: A hash table is not ordered, so you can't sort it. 17:34:51 But I'm slightly confused that I'd need to switch from ASDF to mudballs SYSDEF in order to use that drakma-based download. 17:35:02 bakkdoor: you want to iterate over the results? or sort the hash-table itself (impossible) 17:35:05 Athas: debian with a normal swedish keyboard, mushed up with xmodmap. Someone, hefner I think, helped me to do some tracking of stuff and it really seems that atleast mcclim sees me hitting Meta (and I suppose climacs would not tell me that M-x was not bound if it didn't actually read meta). 17:35:19 Athas: I also tried with tic's xmodmapping, and tic has it working. 17:35:28 If downloading cxml from mudballs means putting an out-of-date cxml defsystem into the mudballs distribution, something is wrong. 17:35:41 madnificent: i have a hashtable with strings as keys and numbers as values and i want to sort based no the numbers 17:35:45 and I have an equally screwy keymap, which maps Ctrl-Backspace into Ctrl-Alt-Backspace. :) 17:35:51 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:35:53 I 17:35:55 eh 17:36:00 I'm happy it's not just me though :) 17:36:04 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:36:11 -!- pkhuong_ is now known as pkhuong 17:36:15 schme, on the other hand, I get M-x, so you lose. :( 17:36:25 p_l: nobody is working on that patch, so it'll never get committed. It's as simple as that. 17:36:28 I will take a look at it once I fix this Swank issue. 17:36:49 bakkdoor: sec, I'll msg you an example 17:36:58 madnificent: cool, thanks 17:36:59 Cools :) 17:37:12 I'd love to get into the climacs hacking meself, but this thing got me discouraged. 17:37:28 This is more of a McCLIM issue, so don't be! 17:37:41 lichtblau: Ah, okay. Hopefully someone gets time/energy to hack on that. Would solve a lot of problems (and probably introduce several more) 17:38:11 CLHS describes ECHO-STREAM as a bidirectional stream, while it says that TWO-WAY-STREAM is a bidirectional "composite" stream. What's the difference between ECHO-STREAM and TWO-WAY-STREAM? 17:38:13 Athas: Someone, hefner I think, had me adding some stuff here and there to output information on keypresses.. and :meta sure popped up. So I dunno what is going on :) 17:38:38 eeh. 17:38:41 I just said that already. 17:38:42 hmm. 17:38:45 too late in the day. 17:38:46 haha. 17:38:59 I will just go to bed, g'night #lisp :) 17:39:00 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:39:11 -!- matley [n=matley@host40-200-dynamic.41-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:39:12 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:39:19 night, schme. 17:39:53 Night? Are you sure you are in Sweden? 17:40:30 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:40:34 he goes up at 4 in the morning, on the other hand. :) 17:40:41 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 17:43:04 vy pasted "ECHO-STREAM" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71812 17:43:54 Does anybody have an idea about why it raises an EOF error while trying to execute second READ in the above paste? 17:46:50 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:21 -!- lera_zed [n=Valera@minotaur.apache.org] has quit ["leaving"] 17:52:17 vy: it looks to me like it's because the string-input-stream is out of input. I've never used echo streams before, so take me w/ a grain of salt. 17:52:55 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:09 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:55:26 Oooh, I completely forgot about typeout overlays. 17:57:30 dlowe: i did it with labels... 17:58:23 HET2: not anonymous 17:58:59 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:59:30 Flodis1 [n=Christia@78.82.248.193] has joined #lisp 17:59:31 lexclose: But first PRINC outputs "(1 2 3)", not "(1 2 3) (4 5 6)". 17:59:44 dlowe: true 18:00:36 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:00:52 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:00:56 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 18:01:06 dlowe: but then again, do i really want to use ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) in clisp syntax in code the purpose of which is not solely to play with the y combinator? 18:02:07 That wouldn't even work. 18:02:10 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F278.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:02:39 Athas: why not 18:03:18 You can't just call a parameter as a function like that. The name 'x' is looked up in the function namespace, while it is bound in the variable namespace. 18:03:23 It would work in Scheme, though. 18:04:33 Athas: oh, i am aware of that 18:04:51 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-140-14.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:20 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-154.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:05:34 jewel [n=jewel@41.247.200.19] has joined #lisp 18:06:13 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 18:06:45 ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 18:07:15 are there any other things like texticl (a textile-like markup language) for CL? Texticl seems a bit dead. 18:07:35 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.128.246] has joined #lisp 18:07:39 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.4] has joined #lisp 18:07:55 jolly [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 18:08:12 -!- jolly [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has left #lisp 18:10:35 -!- Flodis [n=Christia@78.82.248.193] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:36 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 18:10:37 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 18:10:40 madnificent: there are two markdown implementations in Common Lisp. Also the docstring parser from SBCL. 18:10:48 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 18:11:25 lichtblau: do you know them? http://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20Markup%20Languages doesn't link to them :) 18:12:00 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:00 texticl is a fabulous name, though! 18:12:14 http://www.google.com/search?q=markdown.lisp has them both. The second is a stand-alone file, the first one is gwking's stuff. 18:12:15 LoL 18:12:35 lichtblau: markdown.lisp is the second, I assume :) 18:12:48 I skipped over it and only saw CL-Markdown :) 18:13:39 *lichtblau* hasn't actually used either of them, so refrains from advocating one over the other 18:14:57 I'll add those to the cliki-page 18:15:25 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcy186.osnanet.de] has quit [] 18:16:11 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:16:31 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:53 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 18:18:51 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:38 c|mell [n=cmell@cad439-068.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:19:58 -!- Flodis1 [n=Christia@78.82.248.193] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:22:54 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 18:24:35 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:26:35 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.247.200.19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:27:12 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-160-122.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:28:02 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:40 aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 18:28:59 cl-markdown has one or two bugs, but it is usable. 18:30:13 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 18:32:49 -!- elderK [n=elderK@203-167-171-245.dialup.clear.net.nz] has quit ["Naptime..."] 18:33:13 -!- fhobia [n=fhobia@c-24-6-54-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:33:50 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["All my battles are turn-based"] 18:34:01 Can someone remind me how CLIM redisplay works? Why is HANDLE-REPAINT being called on this pane with an +EVERYWHERE+ region? 18:34:06 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:35:28 -!- nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:38:39 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.4] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:39:20 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 18:39:39 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-228-144.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 18:39:49 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41:36 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.155.1] has quit [No route to host] 18:41:50 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E475DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:35 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 18:46:13 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:50:12 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0C654.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:19 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:51:30 ejs1 [n=eugen@77-109-26-23.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 18:51:36 prabu [n=[arc]@117.193.195.132] has joined #lisp 18:52:25 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:53:40 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA631.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:53:43 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns 18:54:40 H4ns2 [n=Hans@p57BBA631.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:48 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:36 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:46 argh.. neighbours waking me up. 18:56:17 Athas: Also I get the same mcclim problem with the M-x on my laptop. Both running debian sid x86-32 18:56:52 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-db57be91a9bd4150] has joined #lisp 18:57:34 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E475DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:00:11 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:00:30 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:32 -!- aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:17 -!- prabu [n=[arc]@117.193.195.132] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:02:02 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-228-144.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:02:37 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C654.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:32 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:21 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:06:53 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:09:50 rafting [n=hask@h152n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:54 -!- rafting [n=hask@h152n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 19:12:47 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:54 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:13:51 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cad439-068.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:14:09 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has quit [] 19:15:24 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5acfd1c9.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:28 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:03 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:32 gmdjm1959 [n=gmdjm195@ip98-180-5-45.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:37 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:56 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcy186.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:18:57 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:22:36 saikat [n=saikat@h-67-100-172-234.nycmny83.covad.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:40 hey, thanks to whomever added my project to cliki :) http://www.cliki.net/RLX 19:23:51 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-160-122.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:24:36 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-178-01.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:25:16 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:26:03 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:58 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a9b-024.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:30:31 Clearly the problem is Swedish keyboards! 19:30:56 they're borken? 19:31:29 hehe 19:32:02 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:06 If you do (esa::set-key 'esa::com-extended-command 'esa::global-esa-table '((#\x :escape))), does it work? 19:32:22 I admit I cannot remember whether Climacs does anything special with com-extended-command. 19:32:28 Drei certainly does. 19:34:51 Athas: glancing over your recent commit, I have my doubts as to whether you are doing the right thingfilling a rectangle and replaying output records 19:35:08 surely you want to request a repaint 19:35:18 -!- gmdjm1959 [n=gmdjm195@ip98-180-5-45.ga.at.cox.net] has left #lisp 19:35:59 hmm. unless that's in a repaint method already, and I don't have enough context to see it. :) 19:37:24 oh, no. handle-redisplay? I don't know what that is, but it isn't handle-repaint, so you should probably call handle-repaint rather than duplicate its functionality. 19:37:48 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5acfd1c9.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 19:40:14 josemanuel [n=josemanu@56.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:42:48 user___ [n=user@p549255BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:26 prip [n=_prip@host245-134-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:47:44 hefner_: it is called by handle-repaint. Or something. I don't remember, to be honest. 19:48:22 Ayup, handle-redisplay is handle-repaint for Drei panes. 19:48:51 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:52:08 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:52:20 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:53:35 -!- plan9 [n=stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has quit ["."] 19:55:21 kebomix_ [n=ahmed@41.233.46.119] has joined #lisp 19:57:26 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 19:58:41 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:59:16 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:59:32 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:49 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:52 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 20:01:55 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:05:09 [tica] [n=tica@85.234.150.84] has joined #lisp 20:06:19 -!- kebomix_ [n=ahmed@41.233.46.119] has quit [Client Quit] 20:11:55 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.128.246] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:13:05 Athas, but _my_ keyboard layout works well w/ M-x, it's just schme's that doesn't. :) 20:13:37 hmm, format can be really handy and powerful once you get used to it 20:14:05 indeed it is. 20:15:02 I made this control string to correctly append GET parameters to an URL: http://search.twitter.com/search.~(~a~)~@[?~{~(~a~)=~a~^&~}~] 20:16:10 -!- hoerup [n=hoerup@62.61.134.78.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk] has left #lisp 20:16:43 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77-109-26-23.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:17:04 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:59 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:50 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:20:55 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-26-23.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 20:21:34 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:49 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-068-098.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:10 sepisultrum [n=user@ks35219.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:29 How can I measure the time a function needs to execute in sbcl? 20:24:56 clhs time 20:24:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_time.htm 20:27:12 -!- user___ [n=user@p549255BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:27:13 sepisultrum: also you might want to look at the profilers, and M-X slime-profile-package. 20:27:21 sorry .. M-x 20:27:54 Thanks, time is enough for my purposes :) 20:30:21 drewc: are you the maintainer of xmls? 20:30:24 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:31:01 mcxx: i thought i'd passed the commit bit to somebody else .. but i guess that didn't happen .. so, *sigh*, yes. :) 20:31:03 -!- Wombat1 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:31:37 drewc: ok :) 20:31:41 mcxx: FWIW, i use the xmls.lisp from the yaclml darcs, which does not have the sbcl bug 20:31:49 Wombat1 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:55 drewc: aaah, ok 20:31:59 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:32:05 mcxx: assuming that's your next question :) 20:32:16 drewc: yup, it was going to be 20:32:28 I bow to your telephaty skills ;) 20:32:51 mcxx: #lisp is a great training ground for telepathic debugging :) 20:33:48 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 20:36:45 phao [n=phao@189.13.215.84] has joined #lisp 20:38:15 -!- pervonisse [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:06 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-26-23.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:39:06 Damn, common-lisp should have a string splitting function 20:39:22 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:39:27 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 20:39:34 lispm [n=joswig@e177158154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:39:36 sepisultrum: get cl-ppcre 20:40:18 luis: well, the thing is that I'm trying to implement a small algorithm just for comparing different languages 20:40:33 luis: I can't pull in deps 20:40:51 thanks for the tip though, I might need it later on when doing real work 20:40:53 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:41:14 sepisultrum: comparing languages or standard libs? 20:41:37 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:47 I don't think that cl-ppcre has many dependencies 20:41:47 luis: well, it's mainly about scripting languages, so it's both I guess :) 20:41:50 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:57 But still 20:43:11 http://blog.fefe.de/?ts=b7c295e7 If anyone knows german 20:45:11 http://paste.lisp.org/display/71820 is what I have 20:45:23 sepisultrum: do you know about shootout.alioth.debian.org? 20:45:32 the benefit of choosing lisp above other languages is exponential in t and the amount of features. Your test seems to focus on initial support of a language (my german is rubbish), not the effect of choosing it over time. 20:45:42 luis: yeah, I'm quite confident fefe knows about it too ;) 20:46:06 sepisultrum: just checking :) 20:46:25 -!- seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 20:47:10 the task is to read words from the stdin, and output the words and frequencies sorted by frequency 20:47:44 sepisultrum: try (incf (gethash word *words* 0)) 20:47:59 it's everyone's favourite GETHASH trick! 20:48:00 My problem is that the split-by-char function also splits multiple spaces into a "word" 20:48:04 ahh, nice 20:48:10 thanks luis 20:49:03 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 20:49:08 sepisultrum: http://www.cliki.net/SPLIT-SEQUENCE 20:49:31 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 20:49:45 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:48 sepisultrum: also, no need to intern the word, use (make-hash-table :test 'equal) 20:51:06 And, what's with DO*? Ugh. :) 20:51:24 demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig110.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 20:51:27 hehe, ok, please feel free to comment 20:51:59 waterh [n=waterh@114.143.32.183] has joined #lisp 20:52:24 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 20:52:56 hi. here is a slime question: In the manual it states, that contribs should be loaded by (slime-setup '(contrib1 contrib2)) etc 20:52:57 demmeln, memo from tcr: Yes, I am. 20:53:01 sepisultrum: (loop for line = (read-line *standard-input* nil) while line do (loop for word in (split-by-char ...) ...))) would be better, perhaps. 20:53:17 can i load then manually after i called (slime-setup) ? 20:53:36 I've been actively trying to avoid loop :) It's so scary 20:53:40 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:49 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 20:53:50 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:59 lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 20:53:59 demmeln: call slime-setup again 20:54:06 demmeln: slime-load-contribs perhaps? 20:54:10 specifically can i load the packages bundled in slime-fancy that way 20:54:26 stassats`: ah ok that works? 20:54:54 demmeln: i recall that it worked for me 20:55:06 luis: doesn't seem to exist ;) 20:55:12 maybe something has changed, don't know 20:55:13 stassats`: let me try 20:55:29 or my memory is bad 20:56:24 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:58:12 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:58:24 demmeln: ah, slime-require. 20:58:59 demmeln: slime-load-contribs exists but doesn't do what I thought it did. 20:59:05 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:25 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 21:00:10 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:18 doesn't slime-require call slime-load-contribs? 21:00:20 luis: I changed from do* to loop now 21:00:29 luis: quite nicer 21:00:37 stassats`: it does. 21:00:48 stassats`: but slime-load-contribs doesn't take any arguments. 21:01:20 as far as i understand, it loads lisp part of contrib 21:01:54 i mean, common lisp 21:02:54 stassats`: hmm, you're right. 21:03:33 demmeln: ignore me. :-) 21:03:48 ok calling (slime-setup ...) again seems to do the trick 21:04:00 luis: don't worry :) 21:04:23 stassats`: thx 21:04:58 prxq [n=mommer@Xdcbc.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 21:05:14 SBCL doesn't have *BEFORE-GC-HOOKS* anymore, is there some other way to get that functionality? 21:05:43 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:57 luis: you can hack it in; the problem is that GCs are called when there isn't much space left, and consing too much in handlers -> ldb 21:06:42 luis: is this for t-g? 21:07:03 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 21:07:32 wow, clisp is about 10 times slower with for sorting words of a text by frequency than sbcl 21:07:52 and sbcl is still about 2-3 times slower than perl 21:08:21 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 21:09:02 sepisultrum: you're probably spending all your time dispatching on stream functions or converting from the external format 21:09:17 things are much simpler when everything is a sequence of bytes :\ 21:09:19 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.168.233] has joined #lisp 21:09:53 michaelw: actually, no, but adding that sort of stuff to t-g would be useful. 21:10:29 pkhuong: is that the reason why it was removed? 21:10:40 luis: yes, iirc. 21:11:58 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:10 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:13:44 pkhuong: what do you mean by converting from the external format? 21:15:29 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:15:36 sepisultrum: you can do IO in a metric ton of different encodings in SBCL. Each time you use a generic stream function, not only is there a dispatch to the right function, but that function then has to decode the external formal (e.g. UTF-8, which may very well be the default on your system, or EBCDIC) to the internal one (either ASCII chars 1 byte/char or unicode, 4 bytes/char). 21:16:42 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5201.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:40 phytovor [i=mitja@cpe-92-37-0-246.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:55 pkhuong: so how do you shortcut through? 21:18:24 pkhuong: aha, is there an easy way to prevent that? 21:19:52 pkhuong: I'm trying to perform some measurements segregated by GC and mutator, I think I'll have to hack something like *BEFORE-GC-HOOKS* in. 21:19:54 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:20:23 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 21:20:35 luis: everyone's fav feature. :) 21:20:50 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.168.233] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:07 foom: how so? 21:21:24 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 21:21:32 sepisultrum: use an octet stream: (with-open-file (in filename :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) ...) 21:21:32 you open the file with :external-format :ascii, and read-sequence large strings at a time. 21:22:11 luis: well it used to be in cmucl but was removed, and a patch to re-add it was rejected because a before-gc-hook might be quite evil if it allocates memory. :) 21:22:25 pkhuong: that might bite with non-ascii characters 21:22:36 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.168.233] has joined #lisp 21:22:53 foom: any way to enforce non-allocation? 21:22:53 michaelw: that will bite on the base-string on an unicode build anyway. 21:23:09 (that's probably a silly question) 21:23:28 pkhuong: hence ub8 and octet vectors 21:23:42 -!- vy [n=user@88.227.109.200] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:03 michaelw: all you need is below 128. 21:24:45 luis: anyway i'm fairly certain all the GCs go through sb-kernel:sub-gc, so you can patch in a call to your function there if you want. 21:25:01 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:25:16 pkhuong: hmm? 21:25:23 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 21:26:02 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a9b-024.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:27:23 michaelw: does that work with standard-input too? 21:27:26 -!- waterh [n=waterh@114.143.32.183] has quit ["later"] 21:28:51 sepisultrum: open "/dev/stdin" 21:28:57 hmm 21:29:04 *michaelw* feels a deja vu 21:29:05 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-30-92.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:29:36 I think I didn't follow up on kreuter's patch on this issue 21:29:42 sb-sys:*stdin* is strictly a character stream for now. 21:29:50 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:31:15 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-179.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:31:30 well, the assignement was actually not to optimize stuff, so I'll leave it with read-line which feels quite natural 21:31:36 I think you could also have a cheap locale (e.g. C) and make sure to read large chunks at a time (using read-sequence, for example). 21:32:28 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.35.171] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:32:45 sepisultrum: it will be terrible performance, and every lisper will point out that that's not to the way to do it. you'll get flak from both sides, so why bother? 21:32:59 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:19 ok 21:34:13 sepisultrum: if you want to compare implementations on i/o-bound workloads, see the shootout, for example for reverse-complement 21:36:44 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 21:36:51 michaelw: it's not me who want's to compare ;) 21:37:27 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 21:37:42 -!- splittist [n=chatzill@34.12.3.213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["(quit)"] 21:38:41 michaelw: I'll have a look at http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=revcomp&lang=sbcl&id=1 21:38:53 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:41:18 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a17-187.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:41:37 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-158-30.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:45:21 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:14 would read-line from (with-open-file (in "/dev/stdin" :element-type #1='(unsigned-byte 8)) 21:48:19 allready help? 21:48:30 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:48:38 the assignment says not do do custom buffer management stuff 21:48:42 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:44 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-179.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:45 you can't 21:50:07 hmm 21:50:26 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:51:32 gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-692fe7849f7473be] has joined #lisp 21:51:58 sepisultrum: http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/log/static/programming/lisp/revcomp-sane.lisp 21:52:27 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:54:21 -!- prxq [n=mommer@Xdcbc.x.pppool.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:54:25 -!- pjb [n=t@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:56:41 michealw, did you look at Emacs extensions like the yasnippet stuff? 21:57:51 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:36 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:00:44 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:05 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 22:03:09 md6 [n=root@91.204.132.13] has joined #lisp 22:05:16 -!- md6 [n=root@91.204.132.13] has left #lisp 22:06:07 michaelw: hmmm, I guess you want me to merge this code with the one I allready wrote. Unfortuantely I don't get where I would put my code. I don't get most of the code in that file to be honest ;) 22:09:00 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.168.233] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:10:46 lispm: yes, I didn't find them all that useful for Lisp; SLIME helps with autodoc and form completion, I'd use macros for (uniform) syntactic abstractions instead of code generation; also, some things are harder to get right because of lisp's ability to nest binding forms 22:10:57 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:11:32 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:41 sepisultrum: it gives you the w-o-f incantation with which you can use read-line, if you must 22:13:53 foom: ah, you authored that patch you mentioned. Just found it. 22:15:31 michaelw: well, thanks but I won't use it for this program as it is not "allowed" to do manual buffer management 22:16:06 -!- ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.87.8] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:48 foom: did you by any chance use perfmon or something like that? 22:17:22 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:17:52 -!- phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:24 perfmon/perfctr is a neverending source of anguish. 22:19:42 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:19:53 foom: I'm trying to use perfmon2 with SBCL 22:20:14 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@56.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:21:50 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:36 foom: any tips? 22:22:38 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-068-098.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:44 michealw: good points 22:24:49 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 22:24:55 crod [n=cmell@cb8aa0-124.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:25:31 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 22:25:32 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.28.123] has joined #lisp 22:25:54 luis: I wasn't actually doing this work, but I think we basically gave up for the moment because perfctr was abandoned and perfmon2 was braindamaged 22:26:10 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a17-187.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:23 there's an active thread on lkml about performance counter implementations 22:26:26 foom: besides the overcomplicated interface, what did you find braindamaged about perfmon2? 22:26:38 too slow 22:26:40 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:30:07 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:31:36 I'm using cl-who to generate some HTML, I'm having a weird problem with it duplicating part of the HTML though, anyone had this? 22:31:54 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-178-01.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 22:32:13 AMOP got here!!! \o/ 22:32:24 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:46 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 22:33:56 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:56 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:28 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:34:32 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 22:34:40 kzar: are you using (str ...) for attributes? 22:34:58 I am trying to compile sbcl 1.0.23.26 for the first time on x86-64... I'm getting an error that drops me to the ldb...so now I'm curious if there is some configuration file I need to edit to enable x86-64-ness or is it detected by default? 22:34:58 stassats`: No I don't think so 22:35:10 does *LOGICAL-PATHNAME-TRANSLATIONS* have to constain a key of HOST for (logical-pathname "HOST:COMPILE-FILE-TEST-LP.LSP") to work? 22:35:24 kzar: so paste your code 22:37:55 kzar pasted "Month learning game" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71826 22:38:19 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:38:20 stassats`: It works except the "Play again?" link is displayed twice.. it's kinda wierd 22:40:40 kzar: put the (htm ...) outside the (format nil ...)? 22:40:50 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.10] has joined #lisp 22:41:33 foom: jeez, yet another API? Awesome... 22:41:42 michaelw: Then the play again link isn't shown inside the snazy box 22:42:07 michaelw: (It does stop it repeating though.) 22:42:29 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:42:40 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:44:11 Tordek [n=tordek@host186.190-137-177.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:45:39 kzar: the semantic rules for cl-who are weird, but they are documented 22:47:43 kzar: if you'd like to paste your code, I can take a look at it 22:47:53 kzar: I just finished making a bunch of mistakes with cl-who's semantics 22:48:00 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:48:20 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcy186.osnanet.de] has quit ["http://github.com/bakkdoor/rswing/"] 22:50:39 mogunus: Yes please, I pasted it at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71826 22:51:08 mogunus: (I'ts the 'Play again?' link that I've ballsed up) 22:52:03 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:53:09 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:54:03 O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:55:54 kzar: unfortunately, this looks totally reasonable to me 22:56:25 mogunus: OK no probs, thanks for taking a look at it 22:57:49 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-8.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:58:24 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-154.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 23:00:12 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177158154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 23:00:46 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:02:31 kzar: (htm "f") == (write-string "f" stream), then doing (fmt (htm "f")) will give (format stream (write-string "f" stream)), i.e. twice "f" 23:02:40 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:02:53 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-179.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:03:01 -!- antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 23:03:03 small test-case: (with-html-output-to-string (var) (fmt (htm (:a :href "/months" "Play again?")))) 23:05:02 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:08:22 a way to do this: (fmt "~a" (with-html-output-to-string (var) (:p (:a :href "/months" "Play again?")))) 23:09:32 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-8.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:10:32 or just (cl-who:str instead of fmt, no? 23:11:05 rsynnott: it has some formatting 23:11:18 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:53 (str (format nil ...)) is another way 23:13:18 oh i looked at the code again, actually it hasn't any formatting 23:14:42 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:15 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:16:38 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.28.123] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:17:25 nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:49 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 23:23:14 mulligan [n=user@e178029092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:23:23 kzar annotated #71826 with "Cheers stassats" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71826#1 23:23:37 mulligan` [n=user@e178029092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:23:38 stassats`: Yea that did the trick, thanks 23:24:16 kzar: i think rsynnott's suggestion is better 23:24:48 stassats`: I tried replacing the (fmt "~A" ... bit with (str ... but it didn't fix the bug 23:25:02 is there a good way to convert string to keyword? 23:25:15 mcxx: find-symbol, intern 23:25:53 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:26 kzar: right 23:27:55 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:05 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.8] has joined #lisp 23:33:39 auclairb [n=auclairb@dhcp180-34.residence.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 23:34:39 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:34:39 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-190.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:34:52 In CL, correct me if I'm wrong but I can have very big numbers. Can I have very precise reals ? (lots of decimals) 23:35:23 -!- phao [n=phao@189.13.215.84] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:35:49 stassats`: that doesn't work for me, because intern returns :|foo| which I can't pass to make-instance as a initarg, I would need :foo for that 23:37:56 auclairb: you can get infinite precision rationals, 1/3 for example, you can get double floats, and you can get infinite precision integers (bignums). you can simulate infinite precision decimals with bignums if rationals or double floats do not suit you 23:38:36 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:18 oudeis: you mean that i should do 1/100000000000000000000 instead of 0.00000000000000001 ? 23:39:28 yes 23:39:29 (ignore the number of zeros) 23:40:05 oudeis: let's say i'm calling a C library that returns floats to me, how can i convert them to rationals ? 23:40:46 clhs rationalize 23:40:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ration.htm 23:41:04 luis, oudeis: many thanks 23:41:12 mcxx: sure, upcase it 23:42:12 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:32 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-158-30.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:42:44 mcxx: and use find-symbol instead of intern, because it will be already interned 23:43:08 stassats`: it works :) 23:44:04 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 23:44:07 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:47:19 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 23:51:51 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:03 So... I'm writing a thing that queries amazon web services. 23:52:03 hello 23:52:17 And drakma is awesome. 23:52:42 Looking at the examples from other programming lanauages, in amazon's docs, mostly makes me happy that I'm using lisp. 23:53:38 Just felt like indulging in some smug. 23:53:51 isn't there still a lot of mucking about with horrible ol' xml? 23:53:57 Yes 23:54:03 But the Xpath thing just came out!@ 23:54:20 I've been mucking around with horrible XML for ages 23:54:25 and it's much easier in lisp. 23:55:01 I really like klacks. 23:55:03 doesn't cxml solve all the mucking about with horrible ol'xml? :-) 23:55:15 fusss: no 23:55:21 mogunus: out of curiosity, does that library have sexp syntax for XPath? 23:55:23 It doesn't solve it. 23:55:30 But it certainly makes it less painful. 23:56:13 really? what tools do we have to frob xml then? i never used the bloody thing and i have replacing it with json wherever it's needed 23:56:25 luis: I don't think so, no. 23:56:32 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-30-92.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:05 luis: at least not in any of the examples. 23:57:10 a-s [n=user@92.80.72.93] has joined #lisp 23:57:17 (I've only just started using it) 23:57:19 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:58:06 Ah. Apparently it does. 23:59:30 Sweet. I wish there were a couple examples of that.