00:00:49 Kickaha [n=devtop@62.2.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:03:22 bombshel5er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:03:24 -!- bombshel5er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 00:03:27 rsynnott, https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/attachment.php?list_name=armedbear-j-devel&message_id=20EE2EB19AE244BC9D28A635F58E9A32%40lotus&counter=1 00:03:35 bohanlon` [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:03:36 you were talking about a Lisp from C# 00:03:39 -!- bohanlon` [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:48 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:03:57 -!- jaoswald [n=user@user-12lcm58.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:04:16 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:05:52 or a lisp for .Net or something .. we been working on it for ABCL 00:11:59 is there a way to define a generic functions where the methods have different argument lists (i.e. the first argument is used to dispatch to the method, and every method may or may not have additional arguments)? i could certainly use &key, but is there something similar for positional arguments? 00:14:29 H4ns: I think you would have to devise your own method combination in order to do that 00:14:55 fe[nl]ix: ok, thanks! 00:15:33 just the method combination? 00:16:58 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:17:05 antifuchs: perhaps even a custom generic-function-class, but I'm not sure 00:17:07 H4ns: seems like it's not possible: 00:17:12 clhs 7.6.4 00:17:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm 00:17:27 points one and two rule this out, pretty much 00:17:57 antifuchs: thanks. i'm not into investing a lot into this, so i'll just do it some other way. 00:18:12 H4ns: the expert in these matters is Xof, you could ask him 00:21:06 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:29 -!- cpape [n=user@p5484BA38.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:22:19 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-006-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:31 there seems to be a problem with building sbcl under mac os 10.4 00:24:34 with clisp 00:25:06 shmho [n=user@58.142.35.171] has joined #lisp 00:25:07 it seems I'm lacking a "Makefile.features" file 00:25:18 any help? 00:25:36 "GNUmakefile:31: genesis/Makefile.features: No such file or directory" 00:27:25 -!- `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:27 i think the problem i want to solve is np-complete 00:30:32 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:34 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 00:31:46 -!- jeho [n=user@53-186.adsl.zetnet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:28 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-061-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:12 The argument for the ~R directive is too large. 00:38:18 it's THAT np-complete :( 00:39:13 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:41:51 jackdaw [n=jack@cpe-098-122-166-119.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:43:36 -!- Massena [n=pavle@bl6-195-126.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [] 00:45:11 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:46:06 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 00:47:46 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:49:18 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm231.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:50 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:03 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:03:04 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:14 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.35.171] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:06:45 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A254E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 01:09:53 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:10:06 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:10:28 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:10:41 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:52 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:11:28 shmho [n=user@58.142.35.171] has joined #lisp 01:13:45 -!- Kickaha [n=devtop@62.2.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 01:16:30 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:17:03 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:17:41 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:57 -!- perv [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:22 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:25:33 sgware [n=sgware@adsl-074-167-254-190.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:25 I'm new to lisp and trying to run Sensory Graphplan (http://www.cs.washington.edu/ai/sgp.html) in CLisp (http://clisp.cons.org/). While compiling, I am getting a name comfilct: "Importing DOMAINS:IFF into # produces a name conflict with IFF." If I do this from the interactive command line shell, I can choose the option to import the new IFF and unintern the old one 01:27:32 But I would like to automate the process. 01:27:56 Is there a way to preemptively unintern the old IFF? 01:28:09 I've tried (unintern 'IFF) and (unintern :IFF) but no dice. 01:28:21 -!- hoho [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:28:47 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 01:30:43 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:31:12 sgware: maybe shadowing-import would help. 01:33:40 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:03 Hmm. Maybe so. But if possible, I would like to avoid editing the code for the planner, and I'd have to do that to shadow import the new IFF. 01:34:22 Looks like this planner has got everything automated in "loader.lisp" 01:34:40 So I'm just doing: (load "loader.lisp") (compile-gp) 01:35:03 :I was hoping I could do something like this: (load "loader.lisp") (unintern 'IFF) (compile-gp) 01:35:58 sgware: have you designated the package to unintern from. (unintern SYMBOL PACKAGE) ? 01:36:28 otherwise it will just try the current package. 01:37:12 Ahh, no. So maybe: (unintern LOGIC IFF) ? 01:37:47 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-14-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:38:13 (unintern 'logic 'iff) if thats the package the symbol is causing the problem. 01:38:24 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:39:43 Hmm... tired a few variations of that, but it doesn't seem to help. The error message is "Importing DOMAINS:IFF into # produces a name conflict with IFF." 01:40:00 So I assume the package in question is logic, and the symbol is iff, right? 01:40:58 ths_ [n=ths@X46cf.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:34 This is from a cold start, i hope. And are you sure that LOGIC doesn't need its own IFF? 01:42:18 -!- ths [n=ths@X71b5.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:42:19 I'm not sure, to be honest. 01:42:26 And yes, cold start. 01:42:44 I'm just trying to prevent this name conflict so that I can run the planner. 01:42:44 just downloed sgp. one sec. 01:43:26 thank you! 01:44:15 you must pass the symbol you want to unintern (e.g. logic::iff), not just another symbol with the right name. 01:44:17 no problem loading into SBCL. trying clisp now. 01:45:13 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:20 no problem with CLISP 2.41 on linus. 01:45:22 linux. 01:46:19 I'm using CLISP (whatever the lastest version is) on Windows. Maybe if I switch to Linux it will work? Seems like it should behave the same on both though... 01:46:26 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:46:39 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:11 pkhuang: good catch. thanks., 01:47:40 When I try (unintern LOGIC::IFF) it gives me a 'no value' error. 01:47:41 sgware: should work on linux. maybe get latest clisp for windows also. 01:47:51 (unintern 'LOGIC::IFF) 01:47:59 I just downloaded clisp an hour ago, so I'm sure it's the latest version. 01:48:04 ahh, ok 01:48:22 sgware: latest source and latest binaries are not allways the same. 01:48:33 Oh ok 01:48:47 (unintern 'LOGIC::IFF) works 01:48:53 let me try running it again using that 01:49:28 alas, no :( 01:49:53 hmm... I'll try switching to Linux. Maybe that will help. 01:50:32 sgware: always a good decision. ;) 01:52:55 crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-060.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:53:30 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cad4e7-243.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:13 mikeblack_ [n=mike@p57AEFFC4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:50 http://deine-nackte-weihnachtsfrau.net/?id=2667561 01:58:54 When you loaded it without problems, what did you do? 01:59:15 Just (load "loader.lisp") (compile-gp) ? 01:59:21 @persi 02:03:07 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-2-124.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:04:06 vorian [i=steve@freenode/staff/vorian] has joined #lisp 02:04:51 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:05 -!- mikeblack_ [n=mike@p57AEFFC4.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 02:09:25 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.35.171] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:02 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:40 Is there an easy way to change the color of NIL and T? 02:15:46 (in slime) 02:16:44 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 02:18:49 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 02:19:37 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 02:19:43 i'm working on "layout DSL" for SW .. position: absolute; and % .. http://paste.lisp.org/display/71244 .. (will probably rename that macro to with-layout and bind M to main-menu in a let so i can manipulate the resulting widgets later etc.) .. cool idea? :) ... not sure if i can pull it off yet though 02:19:47 sgware: your right. i get the same error with (compile-gp). (load-gp) works thought and should be basically the same thing. 02:20:36 sgware: (load-gp) then (compile-gp) works. 02:23:28 lnostdal: looks neat :) 02:24:09 ok, drew :) ..i'm thinking multiple layers too .. that z-index thing .. for dialogs for instance 02:24:25 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:19 lnostdal: but why the grid. would not a s-expression layout better. (hbox (vbox (label) (label)) (button)) etc.? 02:25:26 i need some thingy that can "find rectangles" or something .. 02:26:47 one can already do that - kinda, persi .. maybe some wrappers would make something like that nicer though 02:29:56 lnostdal: i see what your getting at. kinda nice. 02:30:08 http://desktop.nostdal.org/~lnostdal/css-tables-3.html 02:30:13 resize it .. 02:30:24 ..something like that .. i think 02:31:09 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:31:18 i'm working on similar things but I just use the browser itself to design the applications. 02:31:23 not in code. 02:32:01 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:32:02 layout is a pain in the but with code, all that tweaking. nice to just drag and position, etc. 02:32:07 alpheus [n=user@vpn.cashnetusa.com] has joined #lisp 02:32:15 hm, with firebug you mean 02:32:17 ? 02:32:34 ..it's very nice .. like the slime inspector, almost 02:32:42 no, actually wrote a web app to design webapps. 02:32:50 ok 02:33:02 but firebug is a necessity. 02:33:13 for me, at lest. all that AJAX communications. 02:33:54 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:34:49 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178011025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:34:50 -!- jackdaw [n=jack@cpe-098-122-166-119.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:35:15 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178011025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:35:49 alpheus` [n=user@c-98-213-176-16.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:00 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:24 shmho [n=user@58.142.35.171] has joined #lisp 02:39:35 mib_vzjjof [i=4cae1ef3@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-55b61c60fff33f44] has joined #lisp 02:40:13 anyone using fastCGI and lisp? 02:42:54 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:44 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.23.128] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:46:28 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:49:16 mib_vzjjof: I haven't but knowing the fcgi spec, I would consider easier (and appropriate for today's networks) to use http instead of fcgi if I ended up having no decent fcgi library to use 02:49:51 i.e. application http servers to which main hub http servers proxy queries to 02:50:27 how do you serve the dynamic content though? 02:50:37 proxy an load balancing is easy 02:50:48 application servers would generate dynamic content 02:51:08 -!- alpheus [n=user@vpn.cashnetusa.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:51:19 some people use such a setup with ruby on rails with montrel http lib/server for instance 02:51:32 err mongrel 02:52:38 the only difference is that instead of speaking fcgi, application servers speak http (which is also already widely supported by http proxy servers) 02:53:18 fcgi would theoretically allow more efficient transfers, but with modern hardware and advent of http pipelining this is less of an issue 02:56:37 sgware06 [n=sgware@adsl-074-167-254-190.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:16 no im talking about using lisp nto ruby 02:58:19 not- 02:58:42 lisp not ruby 02:58:47 are you doing that? 03:03:51 -!- sgware06 [n=sgware@adsl-074-167-254-190.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [] 03:03:52 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:05 -!- sgware [n=sgware@adsl-074-167-254-190.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:08:31 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 03:11:16 -!- athos_ is now known as athos 03:15:16 mib_vzjjof: I've not used lisp for web development yet, but what I said can be valid for any language... others here have used some lisp web frameworks though (see http://www.cliki.net/web) 03:15:58 mib_vzjjof: I use pound to load balance to two machines each running a multithreaded lisp http server (hunchentoot) 03:16:08 ah and http://www.cliki.net/FastCGI :) 03:16:23 there are fastcgi implementations, but AFAIK they're effectively unused these days 03:16:37 there's also 'mod)lisp' for apache 03:16:49 which is conceptually similar to fastcgi 03:17:01 but again, it's not used much these days 03:17:24 h 03:17:35 so hunch is #1 wat about bknr? 03:17:50 if you want to write a webapp in cl these days, hunchentoot or another http server is probably your best optino 03:18:58 bknr's a full framework 03:19:08 I think ituses hunchentoot as a http server, actually 03:19:11 though I may be wrong 03:25:36 jimt [n=jim@202.27.212.33] has joined #lisp 03:30:49 ryuo [n=ryuo@frugalware/developer/ryuo] has joined #lisp 03:31:46 which implementation of common lisp should I use? suggestions? 03:31:58 ryuo: what OS? 03:33:08 sykopomp: UNIX (linux) 03:33:41 ryuo: I like sbcl, on linux, but there's also clisp and clozure cl, which are both good. 03:34:11 sykopomp: any good bindings for like xlib, maybe gtk2? 03:34:21 ryuo: http://cliki.net 03:34:31 look there for libraries, there's plenty. 03:34:32 sbcl probably has the highest percentage library support these days, though it'd be close 03:34:46 i had seen clisp 03:34:46 specifically, there's stuff like cells for gtk, and clx for xlib. 03:34:50 but eh 03:35:25 rcy [n=rcy@shop.freegeekvancouver.org] has joined #lisp 03:35:47 sykopomp: where can i find a tutorial to lisp? thus far the only stuff I've used lisp for was with sawfishs custom interpreter 03:36:02 ryuo: are you already familiar with programming, in general? 03:36:13 minion: please tell ryuo about that-dead-sexy-book 03:36:14 ryuo: please see that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 03:36:22 sykopomp: i've used python, ruby before 03:36:25 PCL is a fantastic book. 03:37:10 sykopomp: lisp in general seems to be the most variant language I've seen 03:37:18 so many implementations O_o 03:37:32 there are plenty of compilers for C, are there not? 03:37:41 sykopomp: i guess so 03:38:22 they all stick to the standard, if they wish to be considered Common Lisp, so you can expect at least that much consistency :) 03:38:29 fwiw 03:39:29 sykopomp: i'm also curious interpreter has the best support you think? sbcl? 03:40:13 lisp is not an 'interpreted' language in the sense that python/ruby are 03:40:24 sykopomp: oh? 03:40:27 it has a REPL, but it is also compiled. In SBCL's case, this compilation is to native code 03:40:35 so sbcl actually generates native assembly 03:40:48 sykopomp: can it then be executed on its own? 03:40:51 clisp is a little different. clisp generates bytecode, which is then passed through the vm 03:41:01 sykopomp: like elf binaries? 03:41:07 ryuo: yes. You can generate a standalone image, which essentially carries its own lisp with it. 03:41:19 sbcl's binaries are ~30mb, but they require no lisp installed in the system. 03:41:27 ouch 03:41:27 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:41:33 you can also distribute images of only your code, which are obviously much smaller 03:41:40 but require lisp to be installed (so you can run them) 03:41:56 well, 30mb isn't bad when you don't force people to have lisp installed :) 03:41:59 sykopomp: python is also compiled (to a bytecode :) ) 03:42:09 yes 03:42:13 they compress quite well btw. 03:42:30 ..i think down to 9-10MB last time i tried 03:42:39 lnostdal: compressed with what? 03:42:41 about 8 or 9MB for sbcl alone on a 32bit machine 03:42:48 sykopomp, bzip2 03:42:54 oh, very nice 03:43:23 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:43:37 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:44:04 -!- bombshel3er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 03:44:09 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 03:44:10 -!- ryuo [n=ryuo@frugalware/developer/ryuo] has left #lisp 03:44:14 ryuo [n=ryuo@frugalware/developer/ryuo] has joined #lisp 03:44:16 oops =/ 03:44:26 ryuo: You will probably find the most support in this channel for sbcl and/or clozure 03:44:31 ryuo: just about all major cl impls conform quite clly to the standard 03:44:33 but sbcl is the dominant one (it seems) 03:44:53 with clozure gaining on it somewhate lately 03:45:01 it seems that way 03:45:29 what's so nice about clozure? It seems to be liked a lot. 03:45:44 I honestly didn't even know it ran well on linux until yesterday :) 03:47:15 sykopomp: it works ell on OSX 03:47:51 rsynnott: yes. I thought it was pretty much an OSX implementation. 03:48:08 hmph still no regular x86 support for closure though heh 03:48:17 hum 03:48:22 ryuo: go with sbcl then, I would recommend :) 03:48:28 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 03:48:31 it generates some nice, fast code. 03:48:44 sykopomp: currently trying to package clx =o 03:48:54 sykopomp: a bitch to package for my distro 03:49:01 ah well =o 03:49:01 ryuo: what distro?... 03:49:09 dmiles [i=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:11 sykopomp: i help maintain frugalware 03:49:13 minion: tell ryuo about clbuild 03:49:14 ryuo: have a look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 03:49:23 a lot of us use clbuild to get/maintain lisp libs. 03:49:34 there is also asdf-install 03:49:37 sykopomp: what about for distro packaging? 03:49:42 ryuo: linux distribution packages for lisp libs tend not to work out so well 03:49:48 ryuo: what rsynnott said. 03:49:56 i see. whys that? o_o 03:51:21 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:52:27 not really particularly sure 03:52:32 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:52:32 -!- bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:52:34 -!- bombshel4er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:52:54 joyfulgirl has had some success with packaging stuff for archlinux, actually. 03:53:04 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:53:06 maybe you could look at some of the AUR packages and get ideas on how to package up libs :) 03:53:42 but there's also the way a lot of libraries that are often used tend to be used off their VC repos, as opposed to from releases. 03:54:01 it's much easier to use a script such as clbuild to pull in new versions than to package stuff up. 03:56:16 I'm not convinced anyone would use distribution packagees, anyway 03:56:40 me neither. :-\ Arch already has some packages for lisp stuff, but I've stopped using them. 03:56:54 except for actual lisps, which are easy to update. 03:57:15 but anything I run from within slime, I just install through clbuild. 03:57:22 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:08:58 is clisp on win32 known to be particularly slow? 04:09:50 more than clisp anywhere else? 04:10:04 no 04:10:17 particuarly slower than the alternatives for win32? 04:10:33 almost certainly 04:12:28 other than allegro or lispwors, whough, the alternatives have their own issues 04:13:02 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:13:54 rsynnott: out of curiosity, what issues would you cite with ECL? 04:14:46 is clisp "bytecode" only? 04:17:51 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.35.171] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:19:42 iirc clisp has a jit compiler now 04:22:55 I wonder how much that buys it. 04:23:26 maybe not much right now, but JIT produces some decent results in certain examples (HotSpot) 04:24:05 well, allegrocl isn't any faster at my np-complete problem 04:24:13 CL is not Java, and I'd expect the gain for JIT'ed lisp code to be much less 04:24:34 sigh, i might have to think about this 04:26:38 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:26:39 hotspot has had many millions of dollars poured into it 04:27:14 also see psyco for python 04:27:15 hotspot doesn't use a pseudo greatest-common-denominator assembly language for its JIT. That must help a lot too. 04:27:23 there are gains but not dramatic 04:27:53 xristos: but then we're talking about python. 04:28:13 i'd say python is more alike lisp than java 04:28:20 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:28:57 it's uplifting to think that sbcl can generate some good code, when put besides a vm that has so many resources wast poured into it. 04:29:05 so kudos te the devs :) 04:29:08 xristos: i'd say python is less bad than only ruby on performance issues. 04:29:35 pkhuong ruby vm was a joke 04:29:43 sykopomp: the compiler had quite awesome resources poured into it too, some time ago. 04:29:52 don't know if this is still the case 04:29:55 python does have more bindings than ruby it feels like 04:30:02 pkhuong: sbcl's? or Java's? 04:32:59 sykopomp: I meant SB/CMU CL's, but obviously most javacs too. 04:33:27 that's wonderful to hear! Where did the funding come from? 04:34:11 pkhuong: in the ruby case, it was funny to read some time ago that an implementation on top of smalltalk was faster than mainline 04:34:38 sykopomp darpa 04:35:11 xristos: in the python case, it was funny to read that exposing activation records (as dictionaries) for both reading and writing felt like a good idea to them. 04:35:14 xristos: wonderful :) 04:36:22 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 04:38:03 factor's compiler is raising the bar for dynamic languages here. most (or all) of the speed and sophistication of sbcl, in a fraction of the code (partly because it's a much simpler language, granted), and absolutely shaming things like python and ruby 04:38:36 are you sure about that ? 04:38:47 it felt quite sluggish when i last checked 04:39:03 the compiler is slow as hell, sure 04:39:14 I think it can generate decent code 04:39:42 xristos: the language wasn't designed into slowness, and the implementation takes advantage of that wonderful (*cough*) property. 04:40:38 well sbcl is perfect for my needs 04:41:06 i can get excellent good performance where i need it 04:41:24 and its competitive with java everywhere else 04:41:44 cant ask for anything more really 04:42:44 nothing wrong with speeding up sbcl's code, though, is there? :) 04:43:10 bring it on 04:43:57 i'd be more interested in a better collector 04:48:03 xristos: the GC is probably the most modular bunch of code in the runtime and compiler combined. 04:48:06 factor? the forth ish lang? 04:48:36 pkhuong: in sbcl? 04:48:53 bpt [n=bpt@12.160.80.36] has joined #lisp 04:49:02 *sykopomp* stops asking stupid questions 04:50:07 -!- neurogeek||m [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has quit ["Abandonando"] 04:50:13 what the easiest common lisp web framework? 04:50:44 mib_vzjjof: whatever clicks better with you, really. I'd look into at least both symbolicweb and uncommonweb 04:50:54 I think there's a third popular one I'm forgetting... 04:51:00 weblocks? 04:51:02 bknr? 04:51:05 you can make you own easily with hunchentoot 04:51:07 lisp on lines? 04:51:07 those two :) 04:51:08 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 04:51:10 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:51:13 just hunch? 04:51:21 and various libraries 04:51:27 depends what you need 04:51:28 mib_vzjjof: LoL is really just a bunch of macros and MOP mojo on -top- of UCW 04:51:40 is it nice? 04:51:50 depends on what you consider nice 04:51:57 bknr has a fantastic datastore 04:51:58 if I read PCL should I haev enuf knowledge to get started with hunchentoot? 04:51:59 no documentation last i checked 04:52:03 and weblocks is good too, yes 04:52:20 hunchentoot has excellent docs and tutorials are plenty online 04:52:27 mib_vzjjof: Read PCL, you'll be more comfortable finding your own answers once you do :) 04:52:36 ok 04:52:39 xristos: but hunchentoot isn't a web framework. 04:52:45 I think lisp is great 04:52:59 it is half of a web framework 04:53:01 syntax seems so simple and logical 04:53:08 sykopomp: depednding on what you want, though, it may make sense to build it on top of hunchentoot rather than using an existing one 04:53:15 is cl-who the other half? 04:53:17 xristos: well, the server and utilities half 04:53:23 rsynnott: absolutely 04:53:23 like some kind of template things? 04:53:28 how about cl-embed? 04:53:31 ucw is too complex to recommend to a new user i'd say 04:53:31 in sbcl, is it possible to specify the default action when the debugger is triggered? 04:53:32 mib_vzjjof: read PCL first :) 04:53:46 same for lol 04:53:47 ok 04:53:53 [always gets ahead of himself] 04:53:59 havent tried weblocks 04:54:07 but its hunch+libs+cl-cont 04:54:16 cl-cont is sweet. 04:55:35 mib_vzjjof start with hunchentoot+cl-who 04:55:47 then add more libs as you need them 04:55:53 mib_vzjjof: I'd say start with PCL :) 04:56:40 ok thanks gents 04:56:54 [off to go chase women == lisp tomorrow!] 04:57:48 hjpark [n=user@221.138.197.236] has joined #lisp 04:58:26 I'm unconvinced that continuations are a terribly sane way to write webapps 04:58:49 they sound neat for web games thoughlh ;p 04:59:10 I don't suppose there are any libraries for automagically generating classes from an XML schema XSD file (and code to read and write from/to corresponding XML files) is there? 04:59:15 s/is/are/ 04:59:22 rsynnott: they turned out to be pretty good for async i/o. 04:59:48 sykopomp: what do you mean ? 05:00:26 I see some other languages starting to build what they call component based UI webapps, meaning each link or object on a page has a url, and each one can be reused or dynamically cmoputerd.......asp.net and wicket apparently and reaction and tapestry do this......sounds cool 05:01:14 this is fancy talk afaik 05:01:15 too bad no ne came out with a web broswer that reads x expressions not html 05:01:21 [sure is] 05:01:22 xristos: some kind soul decided to grab the thread-based server I'd written and convert it to continuations, and it turned out pretty good. I really didn't want to deal with something like select() 05:01:44 I thought that fast lib was epoll 05:01:45 select is awesome. select is your friend. 05:01:49 xristos: turned out to be a really straightforward way to deal with asynchronous i/o without blocking. 05:01:52 thats what nginx and lighttpd use 05:01:59 using blocking methods* 05:02:02 what you have now is fully synchronous io on the socket level 05:02:12 and you have an asynchronous game model 05:02:18 since you spawn a thread per client 05:02:33 i still think having a single thread would be easier 05:02:40 well, those threads aren't being created anymore, that's the thing 05:03:05 so you have a single thread ? 05:03:12 the server does, yes. 05:03:20 dont your socket reads block ? 05:03:28 mib_vzjjof: epoll is linux-specific 05:04:17 there is kqueue for osx/bsd which is similar 05:04:20 oh 05:04:26 xristos: not exactly. http://github.com/sykopomp/sykosomatic/tree/syko-devel/src/network/server.lisp 05:04:46 and http://github.com/sykopomp/sykosomatic/tree/syko-devel/src/network/client.lisp 05:05:08 aolserver uses os threads and is supposed to be high performance, and unlike nginx you dont need one process per cpu and therefore N logs 05:05:18 but not sure about tcl 05:05:24 as embedded in process language 05:05:35 its supose to be fast as hell for dynamic html 05:05:36 I mean, all clients are handled in a single thread, so I guess it's still threaded 05:05:46 but not the way I was doing it, which involved a new thread per client. 05:06:01 sykopomp how does maybe-read-line work 05:06:05 sykopomp: your way sounds better for multicore 05:06:33 xristos: the implementation is in client.lisp 05:06:49 if the socket's open, it reads from it. 05:07:46 sykopomp: but with n clients you don't have n threadds? 05:07:51 nope 05:07:55 one thread that handles all clients 05:08:02 so its event based? 05:08:11 not quite, no 05:08:30 so how does one process handle like 100 clients? 05:08:32 it just keeps trying to read off all clients, and adding whatever it receives to a queue, which I guess is event-ish, but I think of something else when I head 'event system' 05:08:43 sykopomp i dont see any non-blocking sets there 05:08:50 Good morning. 05:08:54 xristos: hm? 05:09:01 and i think usocket works in blocking mode by default 05:09:05 mornin' beach. 05:09:12 and since you go through every client serially on the same thread 05:09:17 xristos: it does. Those are blocking reads straight off the socket. 05:09:18 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:18 is a read blocks you're stuck there 05:09:20 is usocket a lisp lib for doing what epoll does? 05:09:26 *if 05:09:42 mib_vzjjof: usocket supports at least select 05:10:03 so usocket lets lisp talk to select? 05:10:08 coool 05:10:24 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:10:28 I think it may have gotten support for epoll and analogs at some point 05:10:31 iolib supports epoll 05:10:39 I really need to take a look at this code again... it's been a while since I touched it. 05:10:47 IOLib supports more advanced stuff than basic send/recv/select. 05:10:58 when you use those libs, you can have a lisp program listen for info and handle it from a socket? 05:11:08 basically building your own network servers? 05:11:11 mib_vzjjof: by reading the documentation. 05:11:40 sykopomp i dont know how usocket:listenworks 05:11:46 so lisp has all the tools to do tons of web and network stuff 05:11:49 just like java 05:11:56 xristos: I *think* what it does is it loops through all connected clients, and grabs anything that the clients have sent so far, even if it's not a full line yet, and stuffs it into the partial-line slot on . 05:11:59 maybe it uses select under the hood to determine readyness 05:12:16 so the loop just grabs anything it can, and finishes grabbing input next time around 05:12:20 so it doesn't actually block. 05:12:28 sykopomp: the problem is that on a blocking socket, if a client asnt sent anything 05:12:33 it will wait 05:12:46 if it doesn't find anything on the socket, I believe it just keeps going 05:13:01 ah 05:13:02 okay 05:13:15 usocket:listen tells you if there's any input available 05:13:22 ok then 05:13:23 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:13:40 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:14:02 so if there's nothing, it doesn't grab anything. If there's something incomplete, it grabs it. If there's a full line, it pushes the line into a queue (ditto if it had a partial line and just completed it) 05:14:31 is there a function you call periodically ? 05:14:37 a usocket function 05:15:00 non-blocking then 05:15:08 not quite sure what you mean. The client handler loop simply runs maybe-read-line-from-client once per client, once per tick 05:16:00 rsynnott: is that basically what select() does, then? 05:16:53 usocket:listen probably calls select 05:17:06 sykopomp: select lets you avoid the part where you poll each client. 05:17:10 i dont see this working otherwise 05:17:41 sykopomp: how long is a 'tick' ? 05:17:56 its still not optimally designed though 05:18:04 because you call select once per client connected 05:18:11 who made it? 05:18:18 you could just call select once 05:18:20 hefner: 30 ticks per second by default, can be changed with *server-ticks-per-second* 05:18:54 here I would have guessed something like four 05:19:06 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:02 I expect sykopomp is in no danger of having thousands of concurrent users, so a little polling and extra calls to select will probably never be a bottleneck 05:21:25 hefner: :,( 05:27:19 -!- persi [n=user@adsl-4-108-237.cae.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:27:31 persi [n=user@adsl-4-108-237.cae.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:31 yeah probably not 05:28:45 xristos: not you, too! :,((( 05:29:06 actually it doesnt seem that select is involved ast all 05:29:42 listen is CL stream function that calls read-char-no-hang 05:30:09 so in a way you reimplemented select behavior 05:31:04 well, I didn't write that chunk of code, the credit goes to the kind heart who rewrote the awful mess I had before. 05:32:50 http://devfiles.myopera.com/articles/580/3d_texture.htm Oh my goodness. 05:33:22 sykopomp i dont believe select will make a difference in your case if your clients are in the hundreds 05:33:45 xristos: that's good to know 05:33:49 :-\ 05:35:07 phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 05:35:08 epoll/kqueue etc were designed for tens of thousands 05:36:14 hum. Do the current popular web servers like hunchentoot use similar methods for I/O? 05:36:59 no 05:37:33 hunchentoot spawns client threads and uses blocking calls 05:37:45 hum 05:38:09 threads sounded like a great idea, until I saw the massive cows that sbcl threads are :P 05:38:21 would be nice to have lightweight threads with sbcl, i think 05:40:41 my sw-http thingy uses epoll (via iolib) and supports 20000+ concurrent clients/connections/sessions .. have not had time to work on it recently though 05:40:53 nice :) 05:40:55 but it works .. does ajax/comet/http stuff 05:41:25 I should really look into iolib if/when I decide to rewrite this server thing 05:41:34 is i part of iolib ? 05:41:37 lnostdal: how did you like working with iolib? simple? 05:43:44 hm, yes .. i'd say so .. if you understand the concepts or "machinery" the OS uses for non-blocking IO 05:44:40 iolib is just a thin wrapper around that .. removes much of the C "nonsense" :} .. while the concepts or "point of it" remains the same or maps 1-1 from c --> lisp 05:44:53 ..at least i think so 05:45:01 lnostdal well the OS details can be abstracted so that you register read/write/disconnect callbacks 05:45:26 and the only thing you do is call a function periodically to dispatch events 05:46:10 yeah, there is a couple of ways to do it .. i just let the event-loop block 100% with no timeout .. everything is async anyway 05:46:21 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.143.40] has joined #lisp 05:49:10 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:49:46 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:50:59 sykopomp: returning to your mud example, cl-cont has nothing to do with asynchronous io 05:51:14 its just a convenient way for you to avoid state machines 05:51:47 so you can program in a linear way like in a conventional application 05:52:36 xristos: it's used for prompting, and similar things 05:52:40 yes 05:52:49 it fits very well with muds 05:53:00 ironically, I don't use it for anything but menus :) 05:53:17 I have a separate event system for processing stuff once everyone's inside the -actual- game. 05:53:24 which I really should expand on. It's a bit simple atm. 05:53:31 you could use it for anything that requires state 05:53:38 like linear quests 05:53:52 chained actions 05:53:54 whatever 05:54:00 hum 05:54:06 because the state is implicitly saved restored 05:54:12 you dont have to do it manually 05:54:12 right 05:55:26 xristos: that's an interesting way to handle that stuff 05:55:48 beats having to check where you are at all times 05:55:55 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:55:57 you just call a function and it resumes 05:56:09 continuations are nice ^_^ 05:56:26 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:56:54 i just pass the "conext" into a callback/closure when dealing with prompts etc. 05:57:11 > (show-yes/no-dialog "delete user?" 05:57:11 :on-yes (mk-cb (dialog) 05:57:11 (delete-user (user-of dialog)) 05:57:11 (remove dialog)) 05:57:11 :on-no (mk-cb (dialog) 05:57:12 (remove dialog))) 05:57:25 mk-cb is just a macro --> lambda 05:57:28 -!- drwhen [n=who@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has quit [] 05:57:39 minion: tell lnostdal about lisppaste 05:57:40 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 05:57:52 lnostdal: looks like you saved all of 1 character there :) 05:58:06 heh 05:58:46 it's nice .. depending on context mk-cb can do diffenent things (different lambda, argument-list . .etc.) 05:59:04 lnostdal: how do you mean? 05:59:56 if all your cases were so straightforward, you could rearrange that with a macro so that you didn't have to deal with callbacks explicitly ("mk-cb" or no), just several named clauses which execute conditionally 06:01:11 i can't think of a good example atm., sykopomp -- or i've forgotten .. but i do know that using or typing out lambda then having to remember sequence of parameters etc. is tedious .. and it breaks if i want to change something internally 06:02:17 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.193.171] has joined #lisp 06:04:00 i try to avoid it .. even when i "know" it'll always be (lambda (only-one-parameter-always) ..) .. i don't know what others do 06:06:25 louzer [n=user@137.132.199.251] has joined #lisp 06:14:07 CLIM does a funny thing in certain places where you provide a lambda list which reads like a list of required arguments, but they behave like keywords in that they have to be a subset of some canonical arglist which the system is guaranteed to supply values for 06:14:07 Invalid index 0: must be between 0 and -1. 06:14:23 I wonder if there is a phase coined for that. 06:15:07 hefner: do you have an example? 06:17:12 clim deifne-presentation-translator - the test-arglist and doc-arglist (although I forgot about the first argument being positional) 06:17:28 wow, specbot, I still hate you. 06:19:11 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:23:11 hi all, what is the meaning of #' ? 06:23:34 e.g. (setq x #'append) 06:24:31 imagine (funcall x '(1 2) '(3 4 5)) 06:25:42 ok.. 06:25:45 and? 06:26:16 it will call x on (1 2) and (3 4 5) 06:26:47 I still see #' there too 06:27:02 like (funcall #'+ 1 2 3) 06:28:16 sure, but then all you need to understand is why (funcall #'+ 1 2 3) works and (funcall + 1 2 3) doesn't, and it should be clear 06:28:32 #'foo is shorthand for (function foo) 06:30:08 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:45 So 'foo is shorthand for variable foo and #'foo is shorthand for function foo 06:31:05 am i correct? 06:31:12 foo is a symbol that can refer both to variable foo and function foo 06:31:20 'foo is shorthand for (quote foo) 06:31:26 From a language design perspective, can anyone explain why both defvar and defparameter exist? 06:31:34 'foo is (quote foo), foo won't be evaluated, #'foo is (function foo) 06:32:08 rlpowell: does such a perspective preclude what I suppose to be the standard argument about controlling what you want to happen when you reload the file containing the definition? 06:32:33 hefner: I've never heard that argument, so I'd love to hear it. 06:32:39 I just have no idea at all why a language would want both. 06:32:46 danlei xristos and hefner: thanks! 06:33:04 Ah, if you reload a file, defvars don't work but defparamaters do, huh? 06:33:15 louzer normally when symbols are evaluated you get the variable reference 06:34:04 xristos: yah so #' makes a symbol refer to the function it symbolizes 06:34:18 #' gives you the function that the symbol may refer to 06:34:23 xristos: ok 06:34:25 louzer: the confusing thing is that (reduce '+ '(1 2 3)) will work, too. the difference to #'+ is here, that you won't have to recompile the expression, if #'foo changes. 06:35:04 danlei: oh! 06:35:21 (reduce '+ '(1 2 3)) -- *blink* I had no idea. 06:35:53 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["leaving"] 06:36:17 How does that work? I'd expect reduce to say "That's a symbol, not a function." Oh, but I but that it runs funcall or so internally, so it gets the function cell, huh? 06:36:27 rlpowell: defvar'd variables retain the current value, defparameter changes the value. you want defvar in the case where the variable contains accumulated state which you want to preserve, and defparameter otherwise. 06:37:04 rlpowell: maybe reduce uses (symbol-function internally 06:37:16 hefner: Yeah; I was having trouble imagining a case where the first would ever apply. File reload, which isn't something I ever do :), is a good example. 06:37:16 rlpowell: it's a special case for reduce, mapcar, mapc ... 06:37:23 *nod* 06:37:37 (this distinction comes up often enough that having to kludge around defparameter-like behavior every time you needed it would be very annoying) 06:37:41 danlei: thanks 06:37:57 I have to say that not being able to say (mapcar car foo) was the one big issue coming here from SCheme. 06:38:14 Especially since lisp-2 seemed so unmotivated; at least reading Let Over Lambda clears that up. :D 06:38:19 (good book so far) 06:40:52 rlpowell: reduce takes a function designator http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_dae.htm 06:42:22 In most cases, conforming programs cannot detect the distinction, but there are some pathological situations (particularly those involving self-redefining or mutually-redefining functions) which do conform and which can detect this difference. -- *shudder* 06:42:51 rottcodd: Thanks. 06:44:16 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:23 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.193.171] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:46:32 *rlpowell* wishes he sucked less at reading language definition docs. :) 06:49:42 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:00:24 -!- ryuo [n=ryuo@frugalware/developer/ryuo] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:00:42 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:07 Vaeshir [n=zane@c-66-31-28-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:33 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 07:06:48 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 07:11:52 what if an (if ...) has more than 2 sexps? 07:12:03 e.g. (if cond A B C) 07:12:06 what happens? 07:12:19 nothing, it's a wrong syntax 07:12:35 aha! this emacs code is wrong then 07:12:50 emacs? 07:13:01 stassats`: i'm looking at some elisp code 07:13:21 this channel is about common lisp, and i was referring to cl 07:13:29 i don't know what happens with elisp 07:14:01 stassats`: what is right way in lisp if you want to run a group of sexps for the true and false case? 07:14:16 seb-: use cond 07:15:09 stassats`: just curious...lisp is soo powerful...why did RMS have to invent his own lisp for his editor? any ideas? 07:15:19 Crazy person? 07:15:26 :) 07:15:37 heh 07:16:01 seb-, http://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html 07:16:06 seb-: ask him, and read first C-h f if 07:16:35 seb-: it explains what happens when you have (... a b c) 07:17:31 lnostdal: cool thanks! i'll read it 07:17:46 stassats`: k,,,thanks again 07:18:21 seb-, do you know about climacs btw.? 07:18:28 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:18:30 http://common-lisp.net/project/climacs/ 07:18:58 seb-: thank you too, i didn't know before that elisp's IF can do that 07:19:51 lnostdal: are you using it? 07:20:11 nope, i just try it now and then 07:20:24 oh, same here... 07:21:05 lnostdal: no 07:21:07 it's an awesome project .. like that window-manager 07:21:17 ..being able to do everything in 1 language i mean 07:21:38 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-060.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:09 well, breakfast .. *poff* 07:26:57 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:27:47 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:30:31 -!- louzer [n=user@137.132.199.251] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:30:44 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:04 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:32:15 crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-199.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:36:41 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:06 -!- Vaeshir [n=zane@c-66-31-28-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:41:10 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:45:58 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 07:46:20 *tic* appears 07:47:42 evenin' tic 07:48:09 good morning! 07:48:16 *sykopomp* makes a note to write an .el script that auto-greets tic and beach when they speak 07:49:07 Morning H4ns, evening sykopomp! 07:49:49 hm. I wonder. Has anyone done one of those vecto-analysis chart things based on what hours people are usually active? 07:50:05 I seem to recall Xach doing something along those lines. 07:52:40 so, where am I supposed to put my .asd files for clozure cl? 07:53:05 slyrus_: asdf:*central-registry* does not tell you? 07:53:27 H4ns: it's set to *default-pathname-defaults* :) 07:54:41 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:54:52 slyrus_: so now you know! :) 07:54:57 heh 07:55:03 slyrus_: aka no pre-defined location. 07:55:14 right. 08:01:32 elurin [n=user@85.99.134.206] has joined #lisp 08:02:16 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-162-40.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:25 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:06:14 Hi 08:06:14 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-199.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:06:21 crod [n=cmell@cb8a5b-067.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:07:42 I'm just curious, does the behavior of Emacs where it pops a buffer in a new window in the same frame annoy to some? For example, when in Slime REPL, point is positioned close to the modeline, then you activate the complete mechanism then suddenly your visual lock on the cursor gets lost. 08:07:53 phao [n=phao@20158136101.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 08:08:09 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:11:06 Gah. I'm looking for something that the LispWorks IDE offers, the inline completion. 08:12:01 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:04 With SBCL is there something i can type at the REPL to get the definition of a function? 08:12:54 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 08:13:06 Jarvellis, maybe you're looking for some of the stuff in the sb-introspect package 08:13:07 Jarvellis: if you're in slime, M-. takes you to the definition. 08:13:12 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 08:13:26 Jarvellis, if all else fails, (describe 'foo) tells you at least something about foo 08:13:35 I'll look up sb-introspect 08:13:45 and try the other two things, thanks 08:14:29 if you're asking about "how to use slime" (the editor/ide) you probably want what sykopomp mentioned 08:14:40 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Finding-definitions.html#Finding-definitions http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Cross_002dreference.html#Cross_002dreference 08:14:51 Jarvellis: if sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* is :interpret, you can use function-lambda-expression 08:15:08 I'm not really asking about slime 08:15:54 (sb-introspect:find-definition-source #'defun) .. for instance .. very cool stuff .. heh :) 08:16:26 (works if you've compiled sbcl from source .. as in; the source must exist somewhere for it to find .. obvious i guess) 08:17:16 Sure, thanks 08:18:41 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.153] has joined #lisp 08:21:45 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 08:25:38 hey. What kind of stuff would you guys recommend if I want to implement some kind of persistent-yet-inspectable client-side scripting of a running image? 08:26:17 like, if I want to have some objects, and some related simple scripts that I might want to change during runtime without necessarily having access to the codebase? 08:26:24 I know, it's a weird thing to ask >_> 08:26:26 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:26:44 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 08:29:24 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:34:58 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.143.40] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:34:59 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:35:59 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-10-245.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 08:38:25 sykopomp, I think SWANK is your best bet. 08:39:26 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.134.206] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:48:16 tic: I was thinking of maybe having a slot to put custom scripts in, which would then just be (eval (read ...)) 08:48:47 sykopomp, I thought you meant externally, i.e. probing the running application. 08:49:14 nah, I only really need to probe these particular scripts. Then again, that may turn out to be quite unnecessary. 08:49:20 milanj [n=milan@212.200.193.135] has joined #lisp 08:49:45 Question on debugging live multi-threaded apps: how do you people generally deal with thread-safety? Perform all ops with a (with-resource (...) ...) around all live data introspection? 08:51:45 elurin [n=user@85.99.134.206] has joined #lisp 08:57:57 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 09:03:27 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-162-40.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:31 louzer [n=user@eng3036.pc.nus.edu.sg] has joined #lisp 09:05:44 how fast are logand implementations in SBCL for 64 bit integers if I am running a 32 bit OS on a 64 bit processor? 09:06:24 will it take 64 clock cycles? 09:07:39 Yay, finished all the letters: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/fonts.png 09:08:28 beach: beautiful! 09:08:31 heh, it almost looks like you've embedded thet ext "KLIM" :) 09:08:34 schme_: thanks 09:08:40 now you only need bold, bold italic, italic, slanted and monospace variants! 09:08:57 Krystof: first I need the characters other than letters. 09:09:27 beach, I like it, too. One comment: Is my eye sight getting worse, or are the diagonal lines of the X thinner than the ones in V, W, Z etc? 09:09:28 Krystof: bold should be easy. 09:09:45 (capital X) 09:09:54 tic: they might be thinnner. There is still tuning to do. 09:10:07 beach, the basic idea is sound though. good job! 09:10:16 tic: thanks 09:10:32 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:11:12 uhh... so is there anything I should look into if I want to synchronously play sound while an app runs? 09:11:25 by sound, I mean, play some .wav or something 09:11:42 sykopomp, sdl perhaps? 09:12:52 -!- phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:59 tic: sdl it is, then. 09:13:07 has anyone played around with lispbuilder-sdl? 09:13:21 *tic* fondly remembers mikmod and hooking onto interrupts. 09:13:30 sdl-related libs seem a bit lacking, in cl >_> 09:14:02 Krystof: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/bold.png 09:14:34 beach: those fonts of yours are coming out quite nicely :) 09:14:55 sykopomp: thanks. 09:15:03 nimo [n=user@116.224.222.216] has joined #lisp 09:15:36 sykopomp: It should be considered a hack so that a putative group of students can work on a word-processor project. 09:16:19 Krystof: slanted should be easy as well, except that cl-vectors doesn't have arbitrary path transformations. 09:16:40 -!- nimo [n=user@116.224.222.216] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:18:46 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:19:26 *beach* takes a break 09:19:40 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:21:56 you're the one writing a rpg/mmorpg game, sykopomp ? .. have you considered using Flash/AS3 for presentation? .. it can play sound and music (mp3) etc. 09:22:47 ..i think there are someone working on something that generates flash vm bytecode from lisp 09:23:34 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:36 -!- hjpark [n=user@221.138.197.236] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:25:44 lnostdal: Well, I'm writing a text-based game, so flash wouldn't help too much :) 09:26:21 lnostdal: I'm thinking of messing around with something graphical (maybe write the necessary tetris-clone-in-a-weekend), to do something different 09:26:31 ok 09:26:44 but no tetris clone is complete (imo) without the appropriate familiar russian tune, eh? ;) 09:26:51 right :) 09:31:19 nostoi [n=nostoi@120.Red-83-45-251.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:05 Balita [n=0xowe232@p3172-ipbfp801fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:33:55 naiv [n=user@ARennes-356-1-8-121.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:39:28 lnostdal, _3b iirc 09:42:01 -!- Balita [n=0xowe232@p3172-ipbfp801fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Riece/4.0.0 Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux)"] 09:42:56 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:44:57 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:47:03 ok 09:48:32 I'd like to do something similar for Python. 09:49:18 user_ [n=user@p54923FD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:07 tic: what do you mean? 09:51:40 ..generate python byte code? hm .. CLPython exists; it doesn generate python byte code though 09:51:50 sykopomp, Python now has a way to get at the AST, but I can't for the life of me find a way to go from AST to source. If I could do that, I'd write a subset of Common Lisp that produced the Python AST and then converted it to actual Python code. 09:51:55 (through serialization) 09:51:57 ebzzry: yes, it's very annoying 09:52:02 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:52:03 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:36 chris2 [n=chris@p5B1680CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:55:18 yay, I think I actually understand how this sdl thing works 09:56:03 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2E218.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:37 -!- louzer [n=user@eng3036.pc.nus.edu.sg] has left #lisp 10:02:18 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-496b2ba84497938f] has joined #lisp 10:02:37 perv [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has joined #lisp 10:03:01 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F746.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:18 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:04:39 -!- mib_vzjjof [i=4cae1ef3@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-55b61c60fff33f44] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 10:07:17 hum. I wonder how one would end up using cl-opengl and lispbuilder-sdl in parallel 10:07:33 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:07:45 michaelw: Have you dealt with it? What did you do? I've looked at AutoComplete mode but it doesn't work with Lisp mode 10:10:19 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C08B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:13:57 anyone know of any screencasts on learning emacs? 10:14:07 where would i find a priority queue implementation in CL? 10:14:31 H4ns1: at a guess, in cl-containers 10:14:40 michaelw: ok, thanks 10:14:54 ebzzry: nothing permanent; I use dabbrev more, M-x recenter before completing, etc. 10:15:52 banisterfiend: you might check the channel topic of #emacs 10:17:06 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:17:07 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 10:18:03 H4ns1: there's also one in sbcl, src/code/timer.lisp 10:18:34 michaelw: *sigh* - i guess i'll have to import cl-containers and its dependencies into my tree some time. 10:18:53 *H4ns* has fond memories of libg++ 10:19:15 phytovor [i=mitja@cpe-92-37-30-27.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:39 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:20:07 oh well, and with computers that fast, who needs fancy data structures? i'm gonna just sort the whole data set and then take the desired subset. 10:21:18 H4ns: unfortunately, I found several times that gwking's libraries are broken after his refactorings (moving code from one library to another) 10:21:53 michaelw: i've also not heard many good things about them. 10:22:01 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:18 well, the dependency hell is not really his fault, it's more of an infrastructure problem 10:23:27 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:23:58 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:25:59 the_unmaker [n=g@cpe-76-174-30-243.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:02 hello 10:26:12 hello the_unmaker 10:26:16 how does it feel to use the worlds greatest programming language? 10:26:21 does it feel deific? 10:26:27 the_unmaker: can you please move on? 10:26:34 [listening to mr crowly by ozzy] 10:27:05 hey hows it going N4 10:33:06 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:47 anyone heard of Xach lately? Interested in his systems distribution thingy he was working on. 10:35:56 s/interested in/curious about/ 10:36:19 the guy who asked me to move on 10:36:33 II cant read your name because it yellow 10:36:57 the_unmaker, read the manual of your IRC client. 10:41:21 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 10:43:33 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 10:43:45 setf [i=54a65073@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d642f3ba1ee7aba4] has joined #lisp 10:44:51 H4ns: hey man why yellow? 10:45:02 tic: why yellow 10:46:10 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:46:28 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 10:47:05 the_unmaker, last warning. 10:47:09 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!*n=tracy@222.190.111.* 10:47:31 -!- Krystof has set mode +b *!*the_unma*@* 10:48:03 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has been kicked from #lisp 10:48:22 tic: please don't give warnings that you are not empowered to enforce 10:48:47 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 10:49:05 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:50:28 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 10:51:45 Krystof, OK. 11:00:38 -!- setf [i=54a65073@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d642f3ba1ee7aba4] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 11:02:44 now he is over on #perl complaining about being banned here :) 11:04:02 sorry 11:04:17 sadly I don't yet have the power to travel back in time and shoot his grandfather 11:06:53 tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 11:07:08 that is a shame ;) 11:07:50 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B1680CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:12:40 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 11:17:52 setf [i=54a65073@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-91438e5827767450] has joined #lisp 11:28:04 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a5b-067.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:28:08 chrnybo [n=user@ti211310a080-0213.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:29:54 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a5b-067.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:32:04 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.134.206] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:38:06 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-042-207.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:55 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:40:13 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:46:57 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:26 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:55:13 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp459.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:55:45 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 12:03:25 shmho [n=user@58.142.35.171] has joined #lisp 12:09:30 -!- phao [n=phao@20158136101.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:09:34 phao_ [n=phao@20158136101.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 12:10:21 -!- phao_ [n=phao@20158136101.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Client Quit] 12:10:48 phao [n=phao@20158136101.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 12:12:05 -!- phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:54 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:16:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:17:30 Is there anyone here who is subscribed to ACM? 12:18:44 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.153] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:19:04 Because I'm subscribed but I only get digital versions of the "Communications of the ACM" 12:19:09 isn't there a print version? 12:19:35 mulligan [n=user@e177083178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:20:41 mulligan` [n=user@e177083178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:21:02 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:21:57 (Dear Lazyweb:) The gpg key I'm using to sign my tarballs for asdf-install has expired. What exactly am I supposed to do about that? 12:22:23 manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d0370bc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:08 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:23:36 drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:41 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/5b92c1e4797cd502# it works! .. DSL for layout --> CSS :) 12:24:48 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@120.Red-83-45-251.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 12:25:53 user___ [n=user@p5492636B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:18 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:46 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:28:01 perv: there is a print version, yes 12:28:19 lichtblau: create a new gpg key? 12:28:23 lichtblau: gpg --edit-key and change the expiration date 12:28:29 I feel stupid because I can't seem to figure out where to subscribe to it, jrockway 12:28:41 jrockway: not needed 12:29:35 alternatively, you can create a new subkey 12:30:41 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:30:42 ah wait, the subkey thing is only for encryption, and you want signing 12:31:05 michaelw: okay, I've edited my public key, so signing works now. Thanks! (The subkey still says expired, and I'm not sure how edit its expiration. But I guess that doesn't matter.) 12:31:17 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 12:34:46 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:59 -!- user_ [n=user@p54923FD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:06 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:46 michaelw: OK. :-) 12:38:48 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:38:57 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d0370bc.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [] 12:40:28 lnostdal: cute :) 12:40:47 locklace, :) 12:41:48 lnostdal: just an idea, i'd maybe rather see the data as an external text file so you can get more information/granularity, and then just work with it as a 2d array 12:42:11 yeah, that should be possible 12:42:14 ..to do 12:42:43 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 12:42:59 apoirier [n=apoirier@sakura.nagare.org] has joined #lisp 12:46:24 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:47:56 i guess next step is ..hm.. :auto-fill-p and/or :expand-p options for the content or something .. 12:48:28 ..like in Gtk+ (if i remember) .. not sure how Qt does it 12:50:02 -!- pnorton [n=pnorton@99.164.27.22] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:53:31 ups .. the A element has a wrong height .. :} 12:53:56 lnostdal: are the boxes overlapping 12:55:30 yep, i'm doing something wrong; they should not overlap 12:58:20 zrak [n=bobo@77.28.5.87] has joined #lisp 12:58:56 ok, found the problem .. doing something wrong when calculating heights 12:59:00 can someone recommend me a good book for beginners 12:59:02 for lsip 12:59:04 lisp 12:59:37 zrak: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ 13:00:02 that's what I'm reading now 13:00:40 kidd: does the book show the basic level of programming in lisp? 13:01:15 zrak: yes, it's good book for beginners. 13:02:11 beach: one more question, as i read common lisp, is a dialect of ASCI lisp, so if i learn this book am i going to be familiar with ASCI lisp 13:03:30 zrak: you are confused. Common Lisp is an ANSI standard. There is no other Lisp standardized by ANSI (as far as I know). 13:03:38 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 13:03:46 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-042-207.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:04:24 zrak: I have never heard of anything named ASCI Lisp. 13:04:43 ok, thanks i will start reading the book, maybe the things will be more clearly after i read the book 13:05:01 Good luck! 13:05:04 thanks 13:08:40 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:09:06 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 13:14:38 phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 13:15:13 haha .. it looks like a total wreck in IE .. i should have known .. it can't divide numbers etc. 13:15:54 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-69-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:21:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:24:36 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:24:59 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-210-169.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:25:58 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has joined #lisp 13:26:25 -!- user___ [n=user@p5492636B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:17 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 13:31:30 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit ["shadowy in red silk"] 13:31:48 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:54 chris2 [n=chris@p5B1680CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:39:39 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:43:00 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-84.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:43:09 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:44:54 -!- setf [i=54a65073@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-91438e5827767450] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:48:54 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4529.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:50:42 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcr069.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:31 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 14:02:22 hi folks. do you know any good beginner resources (tutorials or similar) for lisp? I know a few other programming languages already, such as Java, python, C++, and a little haskell.... 14:02:36 minion: please tell Dynetrekk about pcl 14:02:37 Dynetrekk: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 14:02:56 thanks beach (and minion) 14:02:58 beach: are you designing a new font? 14:03:22 michaelw: yeah, but more interesting than the font itself is the method I use to render it. 14:04:23 Dynetrekk: What made you want to learn Lisp? 14:04:34 beach: your own metafont? :) 14:04:35 beach: hm, good question. 14:04:45 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:04:48 michaelw: Sort of, yes. 14:04:52 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0A42.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:05:24 michaelw: The subset of Metafont that has to do with convenient path construction as a language embedded in Common Lisp. 14:05:31 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 14:05:45 beach: I am studying for my phd in physics. I asked a colleague of mine, well, which works in the IT dept. anyway, to recommend me a programming related course. it turned out to be AI related, and he recommended me to learn lisp. I've also experimented with haskell, which is more attractive to look at, if nothing else. 14:06:14 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcr069.osnanet.de] has quit [] 14:06:20 minion: tell Dynetrekk about PAIP 14:06:21 Dynetrekk: direct your attention towards PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 14:06:43 beach: I have Norvig's book 14:06:49 beach: wouldn't that better be done in a graphical glyph editor (for direct feedback)? 14:06:58 michaelw: nope 14:07:45 michaelw: because you have to position control points as potentially complicated functions of the grid, and several parameters that depend on the grid. 14:08:19 michaelw: I mean, graphic feed back is nice, but there is no way you can position your control points graphically. 14:08:30 michaelw: simply becaue "here" is ambiguous. 14:08:35 okay. I've no idea how glyphs are designed, really. 14:10:01 beach (or others): can I ask you, are there any *fantastic* benefits of using emacs for lisp dev.? 14:10:19 minion: tell Dynetrekk about SLIME. 14:10:19 Dynetrekk: direct your attention towards SLIME: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/SLIME 14:10:45 hehe, okay... 14:11:07 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 14:11:34 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-69-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:11:38 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-69-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:13:43 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-85.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:24:01 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:28:57 michaelw: A font is designed much like any other program. You have to avoid code duplication, and factor as much as possible. Furthermore, if you are concerned with the looks of it on devices with low resolutions, you have to make some pretty careful calculations so that some strategic control points are correctly aligned with the grid. 14:29:05 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 14:30:48 michaelw: take the `Y' letter for instance. To look good, it must be an even number of pixels wide if and only if the width of the stroke of the lower half of the character is an even number of pixels wide. 14:31:21 michaelw: otherwise, you would have a blurry stroke or an assymmetric character. 14:31:33 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:32:09 michaelw: so since the stroke width is probably determined the same for all characters of the font at that resolution, you have to adjust the width to fit the stroke width. 14:32:43 -!- perv [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:59 beach: I see. Can you paste the description of an (interesting) glyph? 14:34:12 michaelw: sure, hold on... 14:36:21 beach pasted "Lower-case `g' character" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71259 14:36:34 *michaelw* idly wonders how many times he has implemented Tarjan over the years... 14:37:08 michaelw: But I did write a font viewer for Gsharp. It lets you see how the paths look at different resolutions and zoom factors. 14:38:30 what's the #\o #\q bit? 14:38:37 michaelw: implemented *tarjan*? :o 14:38:38 kerning information. 14:39:04 michaelw: The g looks like an o from the left and like a q from the right. 14:39:16 pkhuong: ? 14:39:20 beach: ah 14:41:14 michaelw: I don't think you're implementing Robert Tarjan, but it's not like he's known for only 1 algorithm/data structure in particular either ;) 14:41:58 yeah yeah, yet you knew what I meant 14:43:56 Is there something like a canonical paper on prototype-based object systems? 14:44:10 Offline SCC? (it took me some time, actually. Coffee's coming up) 14:44:27 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:44:30 pkhuong: yes, SCC 14:44:31 tcr: Look for the "Self" programming language. 14:44:38 tcr: what beach said 14:46:35 _DeepBlue [i=DeepBlue@adsl196-78-92-217-196.adsl196-11.iam.net.ma] has joined #lisp 14:47:09 one way to look at prototype OO is that it is dynamic inheritance and delegation 14:48:25 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.35.171] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:52:50 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has quit [] 14:52:55 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-69-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 14:53:13 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-69-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:31 what do you mean by dynamic inheritance? 14:54:08 I've found papers on self which look promising. I'm going to print and read them upon opportunity, thanks for the pointers. 14:54:40 user__ [n=user@p54927CC0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:18 tcr: hah, I get it, "pointers", programming, hahaha, good one. 14:57:20 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 15:06:14 OK, what next? I could figure out why I can't permanently assign my own text style to a sheet (or is it a medium?). Or I can my embryonic word processor from 15:06:29 *modify 15:06:42 .. from last year so that it uses my new font-rendering system. 15:07:01 I could design some more glyphs. 15:07:07 Or I could go take a nap. 15:10:04 beach: can you network-ping weitz.de? 15:11:37 I can, yes. 15:11:39 user__: weitz.de pongs 15:12:41 gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:50 user__: Pongs here, but I can't see any pages. 15:13:22 -!- zrak [n=bobo@77.28.5.87] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:44 cajetanus [n=cajetanu@aarl116.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:14:18 -!- gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has left #lisp 15:14:26 ok, thanks everybody, forgot you cant ping from within a vbox vm, because the nw-stack is in userspace 15:14:29 zrak [n=bobo@77.28.18.59] has joined #lisp 15:17:10 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.65] has joined #lisp 15:20:03 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-496b2ba84497938f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:20:18 __DeepBlue [i=DeepBlue@adsl196-185-85-206-196.adsl196-3.iam.net.ma] has joined #lisp 15:21:57 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-32.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:22:40 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has joined #lisp 15:25:03 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has quit [Client Quit] 15:25:13 -!- bpt [n=bpt@12.160.80.36] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:25:51 -!- cajetanus [n=cajetanu@aarl116.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [] 15:26:30 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 15:30:20 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit ["[IRSSI]"] 15:30:21 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:49 So I figured out how to permanently assign my own text style to a medium. Now, I should really work on implementing the repaint protocol for the per-sheet framebuffer backend. 15:31:05 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-32.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:34:56 -!- _DeepBlue [i=DeepBlue@adsl196-78-92-217-196.adsl196-11.iam.net.ma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:37:47 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:44 persi` [n=user@adsl-4-108-237.cae.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:48 naiv` [n=user@ARennes-356-1-8-121.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:42:55 fihi09` [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:24 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit ["[IRSSI]"] 15:43:37 -!- chrnybo [n=user@ti211310a080-0213.bb.online.no] has quit ["ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.6 $ (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:44:49 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp459.studby.uio.no] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:44:49 -!- naiv [n=user@ARennes-356-1-8-121.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:44:49 -!- persi [n=user@adsl-4-108-237.cae.bellsouth.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:44:49 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:44:49 -!- kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:44:49 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:44:49 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:44:49 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:44:49 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:44:49 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:44:49 -!- prip [n=_prip@host245-134-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:44:49 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:44:49 -!- lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:44:49 -!- sjbach [n=sbach@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:44:49 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-214-23-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:45:49 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 15:45:52 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 15:46:07 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp459.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:46:09 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 15:49:19 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 15:50:05 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-32.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:52:27 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-28ad9d4608e3ad83] has joined #lisp 15:53:15 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp459.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 15:54:41 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-128-107.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:42 crod [n=cmell@cad43e-196.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:56:44 lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:16 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["leaving"] 15:57:27 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:43 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-214-23-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:44 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:58 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a5b-067.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:42 prip [n=_prip@host245-134-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:00:03 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:01:39 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B1680CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:04:28 tmi`` [n=user@213.151.151.8] has joined #lisp 16:04:34 whois tmi 16:08:02 I don't know. 16:08:34 Got the repaint working as well. 16:13:25 -!- tmi` [n=user@213.151.151.8] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:26 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:41 madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.17] has joined #lisp 16:16:04 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:50 I strongly suspect that McCLIM assumes that it is safe to redraw outside the clipping area that it was passed. 16:19:11 *sigh* 16:19:50 No, wait, it could be my code... 16:20:01 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:23:53 `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.17] has joined #lisp 16:24:44 -!- `m4dnificent is now known as m4dnificent 16:25:06 pauleeallen52 [n=greg@70-59-118-134.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:00 Heh! I didn't consider the clipping region in medium-draw-text*. *blush*. 16:26:19 Sorry for wrongfully accusing McCLIM. 16:27:38 does McCLIM have a steep learning curve? 16:32:14 *hefner* recalls fondly running all over the system trying to suppress redundant changes to the CLX clipping region and spending several evenings debugging some horribly obscure bug that it uncovered (or introduced, I forget) 16:32:20 -!- zrak [n=bobo@77.28.18.59] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:32:53 morning 16:33:46 moin slyrus_ 16:34:35 hi slyrus_ 16:35:40 lichtblau: cxml-stp doesn't build under ccl with the message: "Unknown type specifier: CXML-STP-IMPL::DOCUMENT-TYPE" 16:36:13 I've decided that I should make the bi-annual attempt to try and make my stuff build on non-sbcl lisps 16:36:20 morning m4dnificent, fe[nl]ix 16:39:43 vasa [n=vasa@mm-186-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 16:40:04 m4dnificent: the thing about CLIM is that it's generally straightforward and easy to use so long as you are using it in the way it was intended.. but somehow it never seems like it was designed to do what you want to do :) 16:40:31 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:42:49 -!- __DeepBlue [i=DeepBlue@adsl196-185-85-206-196.adsl196-3.iam.net.ma] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:42:57 hefner: Do you want to say that you have to learn 'the way' of CLIM, but that it in general is very useable? Or are you implying that the idea was good, but the final outcome isn't all that. 16:43:01 kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:01 nostoi [n=nostoi@90.Red-79-145-96.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:15 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:01 hmm... i can't see weitz.de either. 16:47:14 i sent edi email about it. 16:48:33 hopefully not to weitz.de 16:49:02 locklace: no. 16:49:14 m4dnificent: you certainly have to learn 'the way', but I suspect that the frames/commands model as specified comes across as a half-baked thought experiment 16:49:49 lichtblau: never mind... upgrading cl-ppcre (huh?) seems to have fixed the problem. 16:50:33 (it comes across to me that way, anyway. there are some obvious deficiencies.) 16:51:28 err... maybe just deferred the problem. never mind never minding. it's still there. 16:52:35 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 16:53:23 moghar` [n=user@156.185.jawnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:53:36 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@90.Red-79-145-96.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:53:36 -!- kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:53:53 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:54:49 from a practical standpoint, McCLIM is very handy for quickly throwing certain things together where perhaps you need to present something graphically and interact with it, but I'm inclined to question the need and motivation for writing a graphical app 16:56:12 m4dnificent: under what name do you want to be credited for the bug report [re (mapcar 'cons x)]? 16:57:26 -!- moghar` [n=user@156.185.jawnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:57:28 moghar`` [n=user@156.185.jawnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:57:56 slyrus_: that error is due to (setf find-class) use in cxml-stp 16:58:19 m4dnificent: I don't quite share the view of hefner. I agree that CLIM has a particular way (at least by default) to structure an application. But its stratified design makes it possible to intervene and substitute your own code pretty much anywhere in the system. 16:58:26 solutions are to fix ccl the way sbcl was fixed by krystof ages ago, or to hack cxml-stp to not depend on this 16:58:40 kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:40 kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:40 nostoi [n=nostoi@90.Red-79-145-96.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:55 ah. ok. any idea if a bug has been filed in the appropriate place against ccl? 16:59:22 well, I didn't file anything 16:59:23 -!- kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:01:02 pkhuong: thank you very very much to sending in the bug-report. It must be somewhere on my todo-list. madnificent is my preferred name. 17:01:14 lichtblau: ok. I see this came up before in building gsharp. 17:02:03 pkhuong: I didn't quite remember who I had to contact here about it. (sorry for not sending it in, credit goes to you anyway) 17:02:45 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4529.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 17:03:42 i have to update a list of stuff. the way i'm updating the stuff is in fact by simply returning the result from map, letting the old list get garbaged 17:03:57 is this slower than mutating the old list in-place? 17:04:19 yes, no, or possibly 17:04:28 -!- cracki is now known as cracki__ 17:04:30 -!- cracki__ is now known as cracki 17:04:35 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@90.Red-79-145-96.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:04:35 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:04:57 -!- cracki is now known as cracki_ 17:05:22 (that's not enough information to tell. Also, unless this is the bottleneck of your program, you shouldn't waste time caring) 17:05:29 oh, it most definitely is 17:06:04 pkhuong: bbl if you would need me for something (which is highly improbable) 17:06:08 perv [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has joined #lisp 17:06:08 -!- m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.17] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:06:46 -!- moghar`` is now known as moghar 17:07:08 kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:38 mbac: then there might be more efficient data structures than a list. 17:08:21 -!- phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:41 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:17 hrm... perhaps it's easier to just pretend other CL impls don't exist and just make sure my stuff runs on SBCL :) 17:15:30 josemanuel [n=josemanu@204.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:17:14 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-042-207.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:41 mbac: what kind of operation is it that you are doing with your list? 17:20:24 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4529.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:39 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 17:21:47 updating a few of many values 17:21:52 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:55 sounds like it wants to be a hash 17:22:28 is it a big list? 17:22:44 ~100 elements 17:23:40 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:24:42 mbac: certainly, if this is a potential bottleneck of your program you should start by considering a better data structure (which might change the complexity of your program) before considering low-level problems such as updating in place. 17:25:38 very true. 17:26:11 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:27:20 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.23.128] has joined #lisp 17:29:16 ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.72.107] has joined #lisp 17:31:35 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:16 ebzzry__ [n=rmm@124.217.73.25] has joined #lisp 17:32:20 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.93.172] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:34:45 -!- ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.72.107] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:35:07 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:36:53 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 17:41:12 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 17:41:58 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 17:42:50 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:41 a-s [n=user@92.80.98.132] has joined #lisp 17:43:51 -!- tmi`` [n=user@213.151.151.8] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:31 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 17:53:06 is weitz.de down? :/ 17:53:20 is there a drakma-docs mirror? 17:53:40 yes 17:53:54 cYmen: use google cache 17:54:06 cYmen: http://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/ediware/drakma/doc/ 17:54:17 thanks 17:57:37 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.86.242] has joined #lisp 17:58:31 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:58:52 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084246.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 18:04:03 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 18:05:55 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:12:09 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:30 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:45 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:13:23 Vítejte. 18:18:16 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 18:18:54 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:19 cddr` [n=user@user-5443a3d9.lns5-c8.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:22:24 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-216-10.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:27:34 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 18:27:34 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:28:02 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 18:29:59 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-042-207.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:39 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 18:31:05 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:31:32 *beach* fixes draw-text* 18:34:21 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:36:32 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:38:42 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 18:40:07 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 18:43:14 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 18:45:14 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:56 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 18:46:03 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:46:47 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 18:47:02 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:48 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:48:16 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 18:49:47 barkbitare 18:53:44 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["Induhvidual Quote: “I used to be as sharp as a button.”"] 18:54:02 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:49 schme_: some kind of animal? 18:55:06 No, just a normal greeting. 18:55:10 -!- persi` [n=user@adsl-4-108-237.cae.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:55:15 Like "hello, guys and gals!" 18:55:29 bark biters literally I suppose. 18:55:47 beach: So how is the font coming along? Added the åäö yet? :) 18:56:29 schme_: no, not yet. I did `.', `!', and `?' though. 18:56:44 schme_: but now I am working on the framebuffer backend. 18:56:45 Oh excellent. 18:57:03 Sounds like december will be an exciting month :) 18:57:09 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:57:13 possibly. 18:57:55 schme_: I also have an old McCLIM/ESA-based word processor lying around somewhere. It would be fun to test it on the frambuffer backend with the new font. 18:58:41 oh fun :) 18:58:50 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:59:01 it runs the address book, I assume? 18:59:20 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:30 The word processor? Not at all, no. 18:59:37 But that's an idea! :) 18:59:48 the backend.. 19:00:16 hefner: I haven't tested any applications other than my custom-made one for testing. 19:01:53 how does it work? for a particular pane, do you somehow switch to use your framebuffer medium? 19:02:33 hefner: I have a sheet-mixin that will allocate a framebuffer medium. 19:03:41 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-28ad9d4608e3ad83] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:04:25 hefner: make-medium takes a port and a sheet, and makes a medium, so I specialize that one on my sheet-mixin class. 19:04:46 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:20 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-69-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 19:05:30 johnjoy [i=529b1171@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2fab606b6c758dbd] has joined #lisp 19:07:16 now that I've played with xrender some more, I'm convinced it would be fun and straightforward to provide a nice antialiased xrender path for all the basic drawing functions 19:07:35 hefner: that would be fantastic! 19:07:55 hi everyone 19:08:04 hello johnjoy 19:08:20 I'm searching for a simple graphical package/graphical rich UI console done in lisp for studying the possibilities of using Lisp, or a dialect, as the foundation for a Visual Language 19:08:23 any hints? 19:08:36 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 19:09:12 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:45 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:09:46 johnjoy: I am not sure I understand what it is that you are looking for. 19:10:11 dvk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 19:10:38 johnjoy: Is it a GUI library that you are planning to use to implement your language, or is it something that you just want to take inspiration from? 19:10:40 beach: well ... do you know of any lisp console(I mean interpreter) who uses graphic representation for the environment ? 19:10:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:10:49 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:10:49 -!- jimt [n=jim@202.27.212.33] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:10:49 -!- sktrdie [n=sktrdie@adsl-75-32-37-220.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:10:49 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:10:49 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:10:49 -!- Thas [n=weechat@97-113-38-116.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:11:02 -!- dvk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Client Quit] 19:11:17 johnjoy: oh *that* kind of console. We call that a REPL (read-eval-print loop) 19:11:21 dvk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 19:11:37 johnjoy: and more often than not, it is an incremental compiler as opposed to an interpreter. 19:11:42 beach: there's a lot of tedious work to it though, particularly to make it efficient. Just with my experience hacking partial support for lines, there was a fair amount of computation that had to be done at the medium level, and no obvious way to cache it for recorded operations (where you shouldn't have to convert thick lines into trapezoids and clip them to the x11 coordinate bounds every time, for instance) 19:12:03 maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #lisp 19:12:06 sktrdie [n=sktrdie@adsl-75-32-37-220.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:13 Thas [n=weechat@97-113-38-116.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:14 johnjoy: You mean like Interlisp? 19:12:14 johnjoy: just how do you want the environment to be represented graphically? 19:12:36 jimt [n=jim@202.27.212.33] has joined #lisp 19:13:09 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:13:16 hefner: I see. Though, it might be good to first do a slow but correct implementation and then to look for speed-ups later. 19:13:31 Interlisp had a special graphic editor IIRC 19:13:53 p_l: ty, I'll be checking it 19:13:56 xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:14:35 johnjoy: The CLIM listener uses graphics to show the files in your directory, and other stuff like that, and you can directly use drawing primitives in the REPL. 19:14:40 johnjoy: You'll have to implement one yourself, I think. I doubt there's a version of Interlisp or similar environment that runs on today's computer 19:15:20 If you don't need graphical represantation for code, CLIM listener might be good too 19:15:53 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:16:14 beach: my vision is to make it possible to program de way things are presented, but just thinking on simple things like diagrams and simple structures 19:16:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:18:01 beach, p_l: the idea is to facilitate the use of a Business ontology (things and relations) 19:18:09 johnjoy: It is still not clear to me if you want a GUI library for implemention your vision or if you just want to look at some code you can get inspiration from. 19:18:25 *implementing 19:19:19 johnjoy: So, basically a graphic model that would be later turned into code? 19:19:22 johnjoy: you need to read a very good web page called "ontology is overrated" 19:19:47 beack: sure, firstly I was looking for the simplest GUI library I could use to do some tests 19:21:36 johnjoy: Simplest to use or simplest to get working? 19:21:42 johnjoy: Are you sure you want a simple one? If so, I can recommend CLX. It's very low level. 19:22:08 (next, we are going to find out that it has to run on some commercial OS) 19:22:15 p_l: it could be either way, I find interesting to explore the code-as-data property to explore how you could define models of content, or structure of diagrams graphically 19:22:30 LTK is quite easy to get running and it's rather portable and not as low-level 19:22:47 I could be wrong, but I don't think LTK gives you much in the way of doing custom graphics 19:22:56 simplest, in terms to get working 19:23:17 hefner: With custom graphics you are basically always reduced to some drawing primitives and no additional support 19:23:29 I would be more worried about how hard would it be to get interactivity working 19:23:38 p_l: does LTK even have some kind of canvas? 19:23:50 and no OS restriction, it's all experimental 19:23:51 johnjoy: you realize, of course, that by using such criteria (simplest to get working), you might actually pick up a pretty bad one in other respects. 19:24:00 hefner: It should have - TK has one for sure 19:24:17 hefner: As well as a rich text control 19:25:01 that's stuff from a 1996 book, though 19:25:09 well, awesome. I'm asking questions which I should answer myself from reading documentation, and p_l answers in the form "TK does, so surely LTK wraps them!" :) 19:25:09 beach: I need the knowledge of testing prior to do a good choice, so I'll rather pick the one wich gives me that knowledge faster 19:25:25 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:40 hefner: Can we be sure clipping regions are either rectangles or rectangle sets? 19:25:57 hefner: is that my influence? sory for anything, just a bit lost in the middle of the lisp world, ty all for the hints 19:26:13 phytovor [i=mitja@cpe-92-37-13-224.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:28 hefner: Well, I haven't played much with LTK, but it gives you a possibility to send commands directly to wish, doesn't it? Who said anything about wrapper? :P 19:28:51 beach: the spec permits that limitation. I'm sure mcclim doesn't have any higher ambitions. 19:32:44 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F87F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:46 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:22 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:35:06 hey 19:35:12 hello weirdo 19:35:20 sb-ext:string-to-octets chokes on displaced strings 19:35:23 is this expected? 19:35:55 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3aca26b1cfc98952] has joined #lisp 19:36:47 hefner: I guess I can do it like this: If a glyph is totally outside the clipping region, then don't render it at all. If it is totally inside, render the entire thing. If its region overlaps the clipping region, but it is not inside, then test each pixel before rendering. 19:37:33 any devs around? :) 19:37:43 -!- dvk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:38:28 tmi` [n=user@213.151.151.8] has joined #lisp 19:40:09 weirdo: I don't think it should no, do you have a test case? 19:40:19 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:40:20 wait 19:40:33 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084246.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:42:39 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 19:42:47 http://paste.lisp.org/display/71269 19:44:15 does every lisp map char-codes to unicode? 19:44:32 it isn't required to 19:45:05 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:26 weirdo: do you need a workaround or are you just curious? 19:47:02 luis, some of my code would break, yes 19:47:44 weirdo: babal:string-to-octets works 19:47:58 how do i sum a hash table of number values? maphash returns nil :( 19:49:39 mbac: (reduce #'+ (alexandria:hash-table-values )) 19:49:44 I don't see how a return value of maphash would help you, but just sum them into a variable has you go through the table 19:49:55 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:49:58 fe[nl]ix's suggestion is particularly awful\ 19:50:21 babel:octets-to-string changes 243 to garbage, while sb-ext:octets-to-string barfs an exception 19:50:23 (loop for v being the hash-values of your-table sum v) 19:50:45 weirdo: external format issue? 19:50:47 maphash returning nil means i can't just write (reduce #'+ (maphash #'(lambda (k v) v) h)) 19:50:52 (dreadful as the syntax is, LOOP is often the most handy built-into-cl hash table iteration operator) 19:51:05 -!- jimt [n=jim@202.27.212.33] has left #lisp 19:51:10 ah, right. maphash is misleadingly named. :) 19:51:19 it's more like iterhash 19:51:55 weirdo: got another test case? 19:53:23 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4529.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:24 well, that's annoying. i'm liberally using map all over my code and i notice only one of my four cores is pegged 19:53:27 electricfeel [n=electric@unaffiliated/electricfeel] has joined #lisp 19:53:36 luis, it's probably a bug in firefox, it mixes %u entities in query strings with %ff sequences being actually latin1 19:53:59 i special-cased it so if there's a single %ff sequence, it's treated as code-char 19:54:34 hold on... i don't really require unicode char-codes, only latin1-char-codes, which is probably easier to expect 19:54:38 So, I am trying to create an array (using make-array), and tring to initialize the contents with the contents of another array. e.g. if xlist is #2A((...etc)) i was trying to do (make-array (list size size) :initial-contents xlist) 19:54:39 weirdo: you might want to use UTF-8b 19:54:52 weirdo: Babel's implementation of that encoding is buggy thouh 19:54:57 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:55:04 mbac: map does not magically introduce parallelism. you could write a parallel-map that did, but I think you'd rarely win anything over a more efficient loop on a single core, particularly as SBCL is really easily bottlenecked by the GC when you try to do this. 19:56:23 map should magically introduce parallelism 19:56:35 yes, we need more magic all around. 19:56:40 mbac: no it shouldn't 19:57:14 maybe with :magic-parallelism T 19:57:18 weirdo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/71269#1 19:57:56 luis, wow 19:58:12 duaneb [i=45cd3b57@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-eda2ad4e07ce83aa] has joined #lisp 19:58:12 *sigh* allegrocl heap limit 19:58:19 does anyone know about sbcl's ffi? 19:58:21 in depth? 19:58:42 Yah, clipping works! 19:58:49 Or, more aptly, if ffi mallocs allocates on the lisp's heap? 19:59:08 duaneb: no, separate heaps. 19:59:23 hmm 20:01:13 mbac: it'd be counter-productive in must case 20:01:13 duaneb: it uses malloc() 20:01:15 s 20:01:26 luis: thanks 20:01:41 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-3481e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:01:50 electricfeel: and what happened? 20:01:57 clhs make-array 20:01:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 20:02:47 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-3481e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 20:03:00 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-3481e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:03:35 beach: "not a sequence" (sbcl) 20:03:53 looks like i'd have to convert it to a list first, in order to use it with :initial-contents 20:03:59 anyone here played around with lispbuilder stuff before? Any thoughts? 20:04:19 electricfeel: if you read that Common Lisp HyperSpec entry that I indicated, it says that the initial-contents must be a sequence, yes. 20:04:27 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:04:34 Hey, people, quick question: Why cl and not scheme? 20:04:47 sykopomp: I briefly evaluated it. Seemed to work as expected and the maintainer was very attentive. 20:04:52 drscheme alone can probably compete with cl's library 20:05:10 duaneb: "compete" 20:05:11 sykopomp: I was using lispbuilder-sdl and related packages. 20:05:20 duaneb: if you like scheme better => #scheme 20:05:23 duaneb: that's a much too general question to answer. 20:05:29 slom_ [n=slom@pD9EB4DAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:36 duaneb: plus, this channel is biased. 20:05:51 hello 20:06:00 hello slom_ 20:06:22 has anybody here used clbuild with mcclim? 20:06:30 hello beach 20:06:43 yes 20:06:43 H4ns: well, no, I'm honestly interested. 20:07:00 I generally code in a common lisp style, but scheme is prettier :P 20:07:01 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@239.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:07:04 and I like the single namespace 20:07:06 AFAIK, You can look at Scheme as either having a small standard library, or being many languages each having only one implementation 20:07:18 duaneb: then you should use Scheme instead. 20:07:22 duaneb: as i said: if you like it, use it. 20:07:33 I was asking you people.... 20:07:35 -!- bono [i=bono@118-168-235-130.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:07:44 duaneb: your question is not appropriate. 20:07:52 duaneb: I think the namespaces is good 20:08:00 beach: why? 20:08:09 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-169.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 20:08:16 duaneb: here are some of the reasons why we like CL: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 20:08:22 duaneb, scheme is poorly suited for doing Real Work 20:08:22 duaneb: I use common lisp because it is the first I got to know 20:08:29 luis: and that link says much! :D 20:08:31 I dont seem to be able to get the debugger included in mcclim running ... 20:08:35 kpreid: because he won't get an unbiased answer, because the question is too general, and it will only result in an interminable boring discussion. 20:08:54 beach: no, actually, I am ASKING for a biased answer. 20:08:55 I fall back into the debugger provided by slime 20:09:06 I want to know about why people are so biased 20:09:13 beach: I think it's a perfectly reasonable question, if considered as a survey, not a search for The One True Answer 20:09:13 an interminible boring discussion that's bene had many times 20:09:25 slom_: load the source code, set your debugger hook to the appropriate function 20:09:34 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 20:09:36 slom_: You might want to try it outside SLIME and use the CLIM listener instead. 20:09:39 and the fix to recurrence is to compile a cliki page with the answers :-) 20:09:41 slom_: do you mean when evaluating things in the clim listener, or elsewhere? 20:09:43 beach: sounds a bit harsh to me. it's perfectly reasonable to ask after the advantages and disadvantages experienced people see between related languages. 20:09:45 I mean, for me, slime is what attracts me 20:09:53 weirdo: if you drop me an email, I'll look into that bug later today. Gotta go now. 20:09:58 I mean when evaluating things in the clim listener 20:10:00 locklace: fine, go ahead. 20:10:05 Though, the loop macro scares me. 20:10:10 ..because I bet the threaded evaluation stuff also breaks the normal CLIM debugger setup (*debugger-hook* won't be bound in the eval thread) 20:10:14 luis, the sbcl bug? 20:10:24 not bound to the correct thing, anyway. 20:10:26 hefner: ah, very likely. 20:10:26 yes 20:10:41 thanks! i'll send you a message 20:10:52 Krystof: I tried to set the debugger-hook ... in that case it hangs until i press C-d 20:11:04 good evening. 20:11:05 dpb9 [i=dboswell@166-70-103-139.ip.xmission.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:08 duaneb: loop grows on you... :) 20:11:13 hello tic 20:11:29 slom_: try doing (setf clim-listener::*use-background-eval* nil) first and see if it works after that 20:11:42 *beach* goes back to the framebuffer backend to avoid the Common Lisp vs Scheme discussion. 20:11:42 josh__ [n=josh@173-21-231-180.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 20:12:23 good call beach ;) 20:12:57 seriously though, dauneb, if you're interested in that stuff go grovel the newsgroups 20:13:00 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-169.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:14:02 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:14:48 -!- josh__ [n=josh@173-21-231-180.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 20:14:58 as there is tons of it 20:16:13 hefner: wow that helped :) 20:16:16 -!- user__ [n=user@p54927CC0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:16:20 duaneb, for a technical discussion, http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 20:16:58 hefner: thanks 20:17:35 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@239.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 20:17:38 sure thing.. 20:18:35 hefner: why does that happen? Also do you know why the GTK backend does not refresh the screen unless I minimize and restore the app? 20:19:12 ugh 20:19:13 zrak [n=bobo@77.28.3.169] has joined #lisp 20:19:27 lispbuilder's opengl bindings useCamelCapsForTheirFunctionNames. 20:19:43 i'm new to LISP 20:19:47 and i installed clisp 20:20:07 but i can't find documentation how to use it 20:20:11 zrak: we call it lisp :) 20:20:23 ok 20:20:27 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:20:31 <_3b> lispbuilder says to use cl-opengl instead of their bindings though 20:20:40 sykopomp: last i heard that "we" call it Lisp 20:20:58 zrak: look at gigamonkeys.com/book/ 20:22:06 slom_: it's really just an oversight with a two line fix. recently the clim-listener started evaluating typed forms in a separate thread, so that you could interrupt them (and so that it would not block repaint of the listener window while you waited). As consequence of the way new threads work in most lisps, the *debugger-hook* takes on its global value in the new thread, rather than the dynamically bound value. 20:22:21 doxtor [i=mitja@cpe-92-37-11-157.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:42 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 20:33:08 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad43e-196.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:33:33 crod [n=cmell@cad43e-196.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:34:57 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 20:38:05 -!- xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.12/0000000000]"] 20:40:51 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:41:35 -!- phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:42:08 athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 20:42:52 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:46 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:46:10 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 20:46:18 -!- athos_ is now known as athos 20:50:35 do all lisps base char-codes below 256 on latin1? 20:50:54 nope. 20:50:57 weirdo: well, if it's really latin1... 20:51:16 do all major do? 20:55:01 jaoswald [n=user@74.73.49.134] has joined #lisp 20:56:10 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:14 does Ingvar Mattson participate in this channel, and does anyone know if his website hexapodia.net will come back online? 20:57:26 bobo__ [n=bobo@77.28.30.197] has joined #lisp 20:58:13 -!- drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has quit ["\(^^) LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL! "\(^^)""] 20:58:54 hefner: is the person that developed the GTK backend in this channel sometimes? 20:59:25 *hefner* points at lichtblau 21:01:09 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:04:35 -!- slom_ [n=slom@pD9EB4DAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:04:39 Athas`` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:06:41 benny [n=benny@i577A1D0F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:06:48 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.65] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:10:27 -!- tmi` [n=user@213.151.151.8] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:04 jaoswald: he used to come here... I don't know when he was here last 21:14:26 -!- zrak [n=bobo@77.28.3.169] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:16:17 -!- mulligan [n=user@e177083178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:22 antifuchs: do you know what alias he typically used? 21:16:27 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e177083178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:33 "ingvar" 21:16:33 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:17:16 antifuchs: thanks. I was able to download the software I was interested from web.archive.org, in any case. 21:17:55 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:19:44 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:19:54 Draggor [n=weblair@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:58 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:08 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:21:16 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:25 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:23:34 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:25:32 minion: are you there? 21:32:13 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:24 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:05 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:34:44 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 21:35:34 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad43e-196.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:35 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:42 neurogeek||m [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has joined #lisp 21:35:50 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 21:35:53 crod [n=cmell@cad43e-196.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:35:54 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 21:35:59 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:36:12 topo [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:39:49 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:41:39 gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-94fd62b146c6c2ac] has joined #lisp 21:42:28 -!- gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-94fd62b146c6c2ac] has left #lisp 21:42:32 rtra_ [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 21:44:12 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad43e-196.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:44:42 derSlom [n=slom@pD9EB4DAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:24 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 21:46:53 beach: still awake? 21:47:54 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:42 -!- Athas`` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:44 Athas`` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:53:09 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:53:59 -!- duaneb [i=45cd3b57@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-eda2ad4e07ce83aa] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:56:17 hefner: are you still arround? 21:56:57 I am 21:57:45 crod [n=cmell@cb8a94-194.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:58:36 the listener used to have a black area at the bottom where it showed the available commands 21:58:52 doesn't it still? 21:58:53 do you know how to activate that area? 21:58:58 nope ... 21:59:28 also climacs seems to have problems showing the arglist when I insert a space after "(defun" 22:01:14 oh, wow, you're right. it disappears as soon as the app starts. 22:02:27 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:41 I tried to track that down in the listener sources ... but I dont even know where to start looking 22:04:53 no worries, I know what the problem is. 22:06:47 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:06:54 nik11_ [n=user@193.253.141.74] has joined #lisp 22:08:06 slom_ [n=slom@pD9EB6DBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:27 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:44 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:13:03 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:06 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:15:51 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:13 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 22:16:28 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:16 does anyone here study at MIT? 22:23:26 -!- derSlom [n=slom@pD9EB4DAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:23:57 the next question of phao will be about an assignment he has to make :P 22:24:16 madnificent, hehe, you're wrong :) 22:24:31 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:28:58 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:29:04 -!- Jarv2 is now known as Jarvellis 22:29:06 phao: I find it sad that not more of the opencourseware courses have been recorded... I really would have liked to follow some of them (and no, I haven't built a list with courses I'd like to follow) 22:29:34 -!- nik11_ [n=user@193.253.141.74] has left #lisp 22:29:44 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a94-194.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:29:54 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a94-194.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:30:58 madnificent, hmm, do they stopped? 22:31:49 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:32:26 phao: no, but not all of the courses have been filmed... at least, I couldn't find the imagery of them. 22:33:45 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:34:37 phao: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/courses/av/index.htm << those are tho courses with some a/v, as you can see, most are incomplete (or completely without lectures) 22:35:49 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 22:38:44 Run time: 1550.3438 sec. 22:38:45 *sigh* 22:38:52 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:41:53 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:42 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-186-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:44:38 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:30 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:45:46 mbac: to do what? 22:45:51 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 22:47:46 calculate a heavily reduced version of what seems to be an np-complete problem 22:47:47 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:48:33 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-169.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:50:19 gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-94fd62b146c6c2ac] has joined #lisp 22:52:21 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:54:36 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-62.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:57:08 vtz [n=user@router2-border.mreja.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:50 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:04:05 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.86.242] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:05:40 -!- vtz [n=user@router2-border.mreja.net] has left #lisp 23:09:28 -!- slom_ [n=slom@pD9EB6DBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:09:55 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3aca26b1cfc98952] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 23:12:39 can I combine defsetf and defmethod? Or will I run into trouble when I start subclassing? 23:14:50 do you need the defsetf at all? 23:15:13 oudeis [n=oudeis@217.194.205.196] has joined #lisp 23:15:47 hefner: it seems cleaner 23:16:18 hefner: but I could certainly work around it... 23:16:36 work around what? 23:17:33 (defmethod (setf foo) (value object) ...) 23:17:56 hefner: that works? 23:18:47 lovely 23:23:07 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@217.194.205.196] has joined #lisp 23:25:57 -!- apoirier [n=apoirier@sakura.nagare.org] has left #lisp 23:26:40 -!- electricfeel [n=electric@unaffiliated/electricfeel] has quit [] 23:28:14 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:32:13 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@217.194.205.196] has quit [No route to host] 23:33:42 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:34:09 Is it reasonable to add an :after method to initialize-instance? 23:34:28 that's the only kind of method you're supposed to add 23:34:32 I want every instance of a particular class of object to be added to a hash table. 23:34:55 So, constructor, or :after method to initialize-instance? (trying to figure out if there is a "best practice") 23:35:18 dunno, probably a constructor here 23:37:23 elurin [n=user@85.99.171.19] has joined #lisp 23:39:43 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-103-31.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:42:02 mogunus: I would say :after method is reasonable there 23:43:31 i donwloaded clisp, and i started to do something 23:43:46 i made a file file.lisp 23:43:55 and i compiled it with clisp 23:44:02 so how do i use it now 23:44:13 Hmm. Think I'll go with the :after method for now. (flipping through keene) I wonder if it'll bite me later? Learning experience. 23:44:24 (load "file.lisp") 23:45:55 kpreid: thanks a lot, do you know other useful clisp commands? 23:46:36 bobo__: that isn't just a clisp command, that is part of Common Lisp 23:46:58 i see 23:47:19 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 23:47:20 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? 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