00:00:15 xristos: I know - it's only an example, based on what I experienced trying to get people to accept non-PHP solutions 00:00:26 thats why i dont like these hosting plans 00:01:03 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:01:46 reading some stuff about l4 00:02:16 found this paper: 'controlled exit from Unix until 2038, a masterplan' 00:02:30 lol, interesting title 00:02:40 great title 00:02:58 the author wants to use Dylan on top of L4 for a new OS 00:03:19 Well, L4 could make for an interesting platform for a new lisp machine 00:03:49 luckily everyone uses 64bit times now so we can keep unix for a lot longer than 2038. :) 00:04:01 the paper was from 2004 00:04:03 foom: I wouldn't be so sure 00:04:08 durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has joined #lisp 00:04:21 'Agenda 2038' 00:04:43 jackdaw [n=chris@cpe-098-122-166-119.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:54 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:06:13 anyway, L4 is probably one of the few *real* microkernels. It's original version (and most descendants) fits into L1 cache of modern hw 00:06:21 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:06:27 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has left #lisp 00:07:13 You could also run a lisp environment parallel to L4/Linux providing hw access 00:07:20 time.ctime(2**55) -> 'Sun Jun 13 01:26:08 1141709097\n'. I hope they've got all their leap years correct, or that might be off by a few million days. :) 00:07:50 elderK [n=~k@203-167-171-121.dialup.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 00:08:28 the author has on his profile page on the net: interests: sex, drugs, compilers 00:09:23 lispm: Somehow I see the second and third as very correlated 00:09:28 foom: they've missed a few future daylight savings years 00:09:41 lispm: Is he from USA? 00:09:56 Berlin 00:10:35 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:11:09 Well, not gonna see him on USA conferences then 00:12:13 for the germans: http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2002/19C3-488-symbolics-lisp-machines.html 00:12:59 *p_l* has this problem with one of his fellow students - even if we get the funds to go to DefCon, we do not know if she'd get Visa to USA 00:13:37 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:39 O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:13:52 can't you go on an automatic visitor visa? 00:13:57 anyone know of comparisons between Elephant and bknr? 00:14:16 foom: USA doesn't have those except for certain countries 00:14:40 luckily germany is one of those 00:14:47 foom: And even then, if they pick her out for screening, they might decide (on USA border) not to let her in 00:15:06 i really like elephant, and i was never able to run bknr due to dependency hell. but i know bknr powers eboy, and my project will be equally heavy on image/video files and tons of metadata 00:15:08 yeah, always a risk when traveling. 00:15:11 even though afaik she is also from germany (I'd have to go for the Visa) 00:16:28 *fusss* hopes ILC2009 speakers/attendees are not facing visa problems 00:16:34 fusss: they are different things .. apples and oranges. BKNR is in memory, elephant is an interface to an external database 00:16:50 oh, i guess elephant is what i need then 00:17:11 also, one of the 100%-sure ways to lose your Visa or otherwise being denied entry to USA is when they pick you up for screening and find for example anything about drugs on your website (including scientific reports where you did study on yourself) 00:17:13 bknr is all in memory? what is that, and optimization hack? how would that scale? 00:17:24 msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.dynamic.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:17:42 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:18:30 fusss: It's a common approach.. RAM is cheap, if your database is not huge, than why bother? 00:18:38 -!- vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:18:59 optimization has little to do with it, unless one is optimizing for simplicity :) 00:19:39 another thing i'm wondering is how to let people write addons/plugins for a lispy app framework. just standardize a good XML-RPC, or some other webservices API and let the ruby/php/perl/python crowds write stuff for the app? hmmm 00:20:01 FWIW, we host a number of BKNR applications on our Xen service, and the RAM use is generally not an issue. 00:20:02 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.186.238] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:20:25 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:20:31 i believe is has 'blobs' for large objects as well.. .though i could be mistaken. 00:20:37 -!- cpfr [n=cf@dynamic-134-098.usc.edu] has left #lisp 00:20:52 drewc: oh, you're with tech.coop! 00:21:00 fusss: that's me :) 00:21:37 i think i need to bounce some ideas off of you, brace yourself 00:21:55 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-058-169.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:03 fusss: Another thing to consider would be making use of something like Google's protocol buffers or even ASN.1 and releasing a library to hide it all 00:22:09 lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 00:22:14 That's if you need a lot of speed 00:22:20 *drewc* straps in. 00:22:37 ASN.1? please no. google api don't know nothing about. 00:22:44 *p_l* dons a helmet and spreads a catching net just in case 00:23:03 drewc: this might sound a little crude and commercial, so let me msg you privately, if you don't mind 00:23:29 fusss: no problemo. There is also #tech.coop if that's appropriate. 00:23:42 fusss: Protocol Buffers is a simpler binary serialization protocol 00:25:40 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:26:43 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:29:19 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 00:29:45 kgn [n=kglovern@129-97-121-238.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 00:30:28 crod [n=cmell@cb8a9b-131.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:30:31 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a6f-095.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:39 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@129-97-121-238.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 00:34:06 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-000-023.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:11 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:38:31 -!- O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41:33 O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:43:14 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 00:43:21 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:42 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:01 Man. Emacs has some gnarly lisp in it. 00:51:48 -!- cpape`` [n=user@p5484DB7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:52:30 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:44 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:03:40 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:00 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:04:19 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:08 -!- Kickaha [n=jadawin@66.105.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has left #lisp 01:11:38 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:45 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:48 -!- Mynch [i=Mynch@ns150a.studby.ntnu.no] has quit [] 01:29:46 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D682.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["quit"] 01:30:44 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 01:36:49 something [n=afeng@c-68-46-48-132.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:51 jestocost [n=cmell@d28851-201.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:38:53 I'm trying to use LINEEDIT. I followed the direction on LINEEDIT website, and put the necessary stuff into my .sbclrc. I'm getting an error: Don't know how to REQUIRE LINEDIT. Any ideas? I'm on OSX if that matters.. 01:40:13 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:40:34 something: add (require :asdf) first in your .sbclrc 01:40:51 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a9b-131.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:41:00 chandler: That is my first line. 01:41:06 Where is linedit.asd? 01:41:14 lisppaste: url? 01:41:14 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 01:41:15 ths_ [n=ths@X6b7e.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:22 something: paste your complete .sbclrc there if you can 01:41:35 -!- ths [n=ths@X4f82.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:42:27 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:50 something pasted "sbclrc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71051 01:43:52 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 01:45:05 something: ok. where is linedit.asd? (I'd expect something like $HOME/.sbcl/systems/, where it would symlink to $HOME/.sbcl/site/linedit-mumble/linedit.asd) 01:46:24 chandler: ok, I think I understand the problem. let me fix that up. 01:46:32 -!- something [n=afeng@c-68-46-48-132.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:46:50 something [n=afeng@c-68-46-48-132.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:00 closed the window by mistake.. 01:47:27 mbtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 01:47:57 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:48:05 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 01:48:27 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:37 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:41 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:49 -!- mbtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:51:06 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 01:52:39 -!- ferada [n=ferada@f054012207.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["gn8"] 01:53:00 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:17 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-189-40.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:31 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:55:55 is it possible to have a "default" sbclrc that is always used in conjunction with a custom one? 01:56:12 :q 01:56:30 something: I'm not sure what you mean, actually 01:56:30 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has quit [] 01:56:45 $HOME/.sbclrc is the default, but you can select via the --userinit option to sbcl 01:57:57 I'm currently I'm using the --userinit option. if the --userinit option is used, $HOME/.sbclrc won't be loaded right? 01:59:48 Correct. 02:00:00 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:00:40 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:50 ok, I have some common settings in my default sbclrc and my custom sbclrc. I would like to remove the duplication. 02:01:37 If you want to invoke the behavior in $HOME/.sbclrc from another file, the method to do that is something like (with-open-file (s (merge-pathnames #p".sbclrc" (user-homedir-pathname))) (loop for form = (read stream nil stream) while (not (eq form stream)) do (eval form))) 02:01:53 modulo typos and errors, don't trust code typed at an IRC line, etc. 02:01:54 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:02:09 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 02:02:13 cool, I'l give that a try.. 02:03:01 note that it isn't quite as simple as (load (merge-pathnames #p".sbclrc" (user-homedir-pathname))) since an (in-package :foo) form or a readtable-modifying form won't take effect outside of the LOAD 02:06:33 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA28A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:09:49 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:10:00 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:11:43 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:11:50 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:13:40 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-71-249-109-124.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:09 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:15:09 -!- mathrick is now known as ||| 02:15:39 -!- ||| is now known as mathrick 02:17:34 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:42 -!- something [n=afeng@c-68-46-48-132.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:23:05 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:10 -!- elderK [n=~k@203-167-171-121.dialup.clear.net.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:48 EtFb [n=etfb@203.22.236.8] has joined #lisp 02:28:57 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:31:44 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Success] 02:31:50 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-34-180.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:34:55 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 02:38:04 tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:40:09 willb1 [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:21 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:40:41 Hi! The sbcl docs say that the semaphore API "should be considered experimental," and that the API could change; is it reliable enough to use? 02:40:44 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-189-40.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:43:27 Reini_Urban [n=chatzill@212-183-50-127.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 02:43:29 -!- Reini_Urban is now known as rurban 02:43:34 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:43:48 if it changes you could just shadow-and-wrap (say, using an inline function or a compiler-macro) :} .. this does not answer your question though 02:44:47 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:45:12 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:45:33 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:37 Yeah, I don't mind things breaking in future sbcl versions, just curious about whether it's safe to use... ;) 02:46:50 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:46:57 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm231.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 02:48:10 -!- ReiniUrban [n=chatzill@212-183-63-245.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:51:47 bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:28 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:04:01 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-34-180.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [] 03:10:48 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 03:12:56 Lucifer_ [n=chatzill@pool-71-255-97-86.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:07 -!- Lucifer_ [n=chatzill@pool-71-255-97-86.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:14:56 -!- sblom [n=sblom@67.51.64.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:17:17 gzip4 [n=xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 03:18:17 "implicit and explicit aspects of scope and block structure" is serious compiler porn. 03:20:06 ? 03:23:56 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-36-80.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:25 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:31:39 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:33:43 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:39:29 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:39:57 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:40:05 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:07 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 03:46:50 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:46:50 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:47:03 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 03:47:08 stassats [n=stassats@ppp91-122-108-195.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 03:48:40 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:52:53 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:53:05 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 03:53:16 g'day 03:57:26 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A064B.versanet.de] has left #lisp 03:58:10 gday schme_ 03:58:32 benny [n=benny@i577A0D49.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:58:34 Hey fusss 03:58:41 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:58:53 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:04:39 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:04:52 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:05:13 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:10:25 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:10:41 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:15:12 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:15:55 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 04:16:20 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16:32 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:20:15 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0ED8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:39 -!- tayssir` [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:20:39 -!- tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:21:51 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:22:05 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:22:19 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:23:58 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 04:25:31 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:27:58 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:28:06 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:14 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:33:45 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:33:58 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:35:36 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:38:09 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:38:36 Good morning. 04:39:38 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:39:51 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:40:24 sblom [n=sblom@c-76-105-146-108.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:55 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:42:32 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:49 morning beach 04:43:54 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:43:59 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 04:45:22 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:45:39 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:48:11 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:49:43 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 04:51:16 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:51:28 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:51:52 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:53:06 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:02 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 04:57:05 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:57:17 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:58:03 anuj [n=anuj@210.212.55.3] has joined #lisp 05:00:34 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:49 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:03:03 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 05:04:29 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has joined #lisp 05:08:41 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:08:54 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 05:11:48 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.245.209] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:00 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:12:05 IKidnapGnomes [n=IKG@ikidnapgnomes.STUDENT.CWRU.Edu] has joined #lisp 05:13:14 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:14:30 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:14:45 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 05:20:20 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:20:32 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 05:22:03 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:27 if i want to start using clisp in linux, how should i go about it? what should i start by apt-getting ? 05:23:07 apt-get install clisp if you really meant it by clisp 05:23:17 i dont know what i mean 05:23:23 i dont know anything about lisp 05:23:26 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 05:23:38 clisp is a common lisp implementation 05:23:39 if i want to start programming lisp as a complete noob, what do you recommend i get? 05:24:01 i recommend sbcl, emacs+slime, and practical common lisp 05:24:10 so apt-get sbcl ? 05:24:25 minion: tell banisterfiend about that-dead-sexy-book 05:24:26 banisterfiend: please see that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:25:17 ok i just did: sudo apt-get install sbcl 05:25:17 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:25:42 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:25:47 is there anything like a lisp console, e.g irb for ruby, or similar for python where i can interactively play with lisp code? 05:26:12 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:26:25 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 05:28:08 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:12 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:30:23 banisterfiend: slime 05:30:46 omg 05:30:49 i just typed sbcl at the prompt 05:30:55 and now i have no idea how to quit whatever im in 05:31:14 C-d 05:31:20 Ctrl-d 05:31:25 yeap got there in the end :) 05:31:32 or (sb-ext:quit) 05:31:34 is sbcl an interactive interpreter too? 05:31:56 it's more interactive compiler 05:31:58 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:32:02 ok 05:32:06 well im just apt-getting slime now 05:32:14 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 05:32:34 the best way to get slime is from cvs 05:33:18 -!- hefner_ [n=user@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:33:28 hefner_ [n=user@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:46 ok slime is an emacs thing... 05:34:48 i dont use emacs 05:34:50 anyway thanks 05:34:54 start 05:35:48 i use geany ;) 05:36:08 use emacs only for lisp, slime is really good 05:36:33 ah ok 05:36:34 thanks 05:37:49 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:38:02 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 05:38:16 banisterfiend: Emacs is the one true religion, and worth getting into... but if you've already got the Lisp learning curve, Emacs on top of it may be a bit painful. I recommend running SBCL using Readline and you'll find it fairly tolerable from the commandline. Let me check the syntax... 05:39:13 copying code from editor to command line sounds very painful... 05:39:18 haha im a bit scared of emacs i hear it's almost a complete o/s into and of itself :) 05:40:48 Syntax is "rlwrap sbcl" -- that runs SBCL with all the line editing and history you expect from the console. Still not as good as Emacs, but you don't need to submit to the secret religious initiation rituals. 05:41:09 thanks :) 05:41:15 And remember the motto -- Emacs: The Greated Operating System Ever Written. Also Contains Text Editing Features. 05:41:32 (Greatest, not Greated. Sigh.) 05:41:33 slime is worth overcoming prejudices 05:41:39 most of the ppl i know use vim 05:41:49 banisterfiend: how many of them code in CL? 05:41:59 none :) 05:42:03 stassats: Absolutely, but let him use the stuff he knows long enough to realise how much he's suffering, then he'll convert himself to the One True Editor. 05:42:40 As I said, it's a learning curve thing. I'm a newbie to Emacs, barely fifteen years constant use, so I still remember what it was like. 05:43:18 -!- jackdaw [n=chris@cpe-098-122-166-119.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:44:35 But seriously: you can still use vi for what it's good for: editing text quickly. Use Emacs for what IT'S good for: everything. Takes longer to load, and is harder to learn; that's the complete list of ways in which it's inferior to vi. 05:45:43 with emacsclient, loading time is almost a non-issue, even more so with the new multi-tty stuff 05:46:14 pkhuong: I never got that working in Ubuntu OR WinXP. Care to throw me some URLs so I can reduce my pain? 05:46:16 EtFb: is emacs better than textmate? 05:46:48 banisterfiend: Short answer: yes. Long answer: before I begin, would you please define "better"? 05:47:08 nm i haven't used textmate i just see ppl creaming in their dry goods so nasty over it in reddit 05:47:53 i guess the problem i have with editors like emacs and vi is that they look like a 1970s throwback 05:47:56 they're so ugly 05:47:59 banisterfiend: Put it this way: I use Emacs at work, on a Windoze box. A while back I realised it didn't integrate with our version control system. In an afternoon, I added version control support, so now I press Ctrl+F5 on a file to check it out, or F5 Ctrl+A to recursively "get" an entire directory tree. 05:48:32 I believe Textmate is Mac only and not free 05:48:36 Yes, it's ugly. So are internal organs. I don't know which I'd rather live without... 05:49:03 EtFb: i hear the new recommended emacs 22 for windows has a customised version of emacsclient built in. You might not even have to (server-start) in your .emacs. Otherwise, if you're using 22/*nix, put (server-start) in your .emacs. I think the multitty goodness is in HEAD now. 05:49:50 pkhuong: Oh good. It's a while since I investigated it. I got it going once, then I upgraded to 22 and lost it again. Never went back to figure out why, cos of the memory of the pain of setting it up. 05:50:08 nothing to do for 22, it's bundled in the default distribution. 05:50:29 *stassats* has emacs from HEAD, but hasn't yet started to use multitty, daemon, etc. 05:51:06 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:51:17 There are video tutorials around that explain how to use SLIME, aren't there? Some quite impressive demos, with key-by-key instructions. Anyone got some URLs bookmarked in their "infect the newbies with the Emacs virus" folders? 05:52:05 http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 05:52:20 -!- O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 05:53:06 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:53:28 here are a couple reference card things: http://mentoring.csua.berkeley.edu/files/RefCards/emacs_22_reference_card.pdf for emacs in general and http://www.pchristensen.com/slimecommands.pdf for slime 05:55:01 stassats, IK: Thank you! Bookmarking... now. 05:55:20 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-71-249-109-124.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:56:51 elderK [n=elderK@203-167-171-185.dialup.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:01:05 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 06:01:07 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:51 IKidnapGnomes: That Emacs22 PDF is really broken in Adobe Acrobat on my Windoze box (which is the only one I have that's connected to a printer right now). Do you know of a version that works with Adobe? I presume it's using some non-standard stuff that works on free PDF readers. 06:04:55 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-135-42.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:05 -!- elderK [n=elderK@203-167-171-185.dialup.clear.net.nz] has quit [] 06:07:12 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:13:17 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 06:15:19 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:38 banisterfiend: I use vim for editing text and coding in other languages since it's what my fingers are more used to :) but I have emacs with slime running all the time for lisp, because it's simply very good and definitely worth learning (the video above shows off some neat things) 06:16:17 .hehe ok it seems to be the consensus, ill check it out :) 06:16:27 IKidnapGnomes: Never mind, Google is God. Found a better copy. 06:17:15 banisterfiend: Exxxcellent. Another innocent mind corrupted. Well done, my fellow dark lords... 06:18:42 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:19:20 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 06:19:37 -!- msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.dynamic.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:22:17 hehe 06:22:37 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-189-40.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:26 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:53 banisterfiend, you need to give Emacs and/or Vim another chance. 06:24:08 joga, hey, you can use Vim for Lisp, too! :-) 06:24:15 (good morning, channel) 06:24:52 hello tic 06:25:06 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:17 tic, I use it for homework in lambda calculus, the rainbow paren coloring thingy helps ;) 06:25:19 tic: would you recommend Vim over Emacs to someone who knows neither? 06:28:29 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:28:36 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 06:29:29 tic: I guess I am asking you to do something very hard here, namely to overcome the very strong phsychological force that makes one want other people to be part of the same group one is in, and just think logically about it. 06:29:51 beach, no, I would not. I should have used a ;-) smiley instead of the :-). Besides, he is already using Slime + Emacs for Lisp. Probably a perfectly good choice. 06:30:08 tic: OK, just checking. 06:30:24 any sufficiently useful Lisp program contains an ad hoc, slow, bug ridden implementation of half of Arnesi 06:30:44 :-P 06:31:42 beach, (your observation was correct, however.) 06:32:41 which one? 06:32:57 beach, about being part of a group. 06:33:16 tic: Ah, that one. Yes, I think it's a well-known phenomenon. 06:35:11 Somewhere I read about an experiment that consisted of picking random people on the street and giving half of them a T-shirt of one color and half of them one with a different color. Apparently, it was a question of minutes before they started fighting. 06:35:11 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:35:58 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:26 *tic* heads off to work 06:39:20 *gigamonkey* mutters about dirty vim users. 06:39:34 (Just kidding guys.) 06:40:57 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-189-40.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:42:56 gigamonkey: I have looked into existing fonts a bit more, and it's amazing how bad the rendering is in almost all cases, but I can't tell whether it is just the rending that is bad, whether it has to do with lack of hinting (for legal reasons), or if it has to do with the font itself. 06:44:18 gigamonkey: I suspect the best thing to do would be to take a freely-available font such as the FSF freefont, translate it to my rendering system, and then work on optimizing each glyph manually. 06:45:31 gigamonkey: One of the problems with that approach is that TrueType uses quadratic Bezier curves whereas, like Metafont, my system uses cubic curves. 06:45:36 setf [i=54a648d5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7b310d8274518a4d] has joined #lisp 06:45:51 beach: have you used your fonts in non-lispy environments yet? 06:46:02 e.g. postscript 06:46:35 slyrus_: Not the character font that I was playing with the other day, but the Gsharp fonts are used to generate both PostScript and Javascript/Canvas. 06:46:49 (both of which use cubic curves) 06:47:02 cool. would be nice to be able to use the fonts in, say, cl-pdf. 06:47:33 slyrus_: Yeah, but designing nice fonts is hard and tedious work, so I am looking for a shortcut. 06:47:55 right. I'm just hoping that once you do so I can get nice output with those fonts :) 06:48:10 slyrus_: that's definitely part of the reason for doing it. 06:48:49 slyrus_: I designed my rendering system when we needed PS output from Gsharp. 06:49:38 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 06:51:08 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 06:55:07 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:55:28 is it just me or are allot of cl music stuff around? fairly large packages as well 06:56:08 openmusic, cl-music, gsharp 06:56:19 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:58:20 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@203.22.236.8] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net/"] 07:02:12 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:24 fusss: that's a long tradition, yes. I think it must be because music is a "messy" domain, so a language that makes experimental and incremental development easy is preferable. But I am just guessing of course. 07:04:55 -!- sblom [n=sblom@c-76-105-146-108.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:05:06 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:06:32 agreed :-) 07:09:26 -!- kami-`` is now known as kami- 07:09:31 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:10:34 morning 07:10:40 hello kami- 07:11:43 beach: my ERC became ill overnight. I hear you twice, when you speak. 07:11:57 ouch! 07:12:20 ouch! 07:12:31 :) 07:12:44 it's getting worse. :) 07:12:47 -!- kami-```` [n=user@p4FD38A61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 07:13:16 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:13:27 kami-` [n=user@p4FD38A61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:13:34 morning, again. 07:15:00 heh, another person whose nickname sounds like someone else's real name (this time mine :-) 07:15:35 my real name kumi :-P 07:15:41 mek||malloc [n=Richard_@c-76-24-50-7.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:06 fusss: and how is it pronounced? 07:16:20 koumi. oo 07:16:27 -!- setf [i=54a648d5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7b310d8274518a4d] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 07:18:22 fusss: KuMi is among German teachers the abbreviation for Ministry of Culture (and Education): KUltus MInisterium 07:18:51 it's also a japanese feminine name; i'm neither japanese nor feminine. 07:19:01 :) 07:19:41 kami means 'god' in Japanes ... I'm far from that! 07:19:42 *fusss* wishes there is a way around temporal logic if he wants to look into the semantics of concurrent languages 07:19:51 neat 07:20:34 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:20:34 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD38A61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:20:46 *tic* appears 07:22:00 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 07:22:32 nite all 07:22:34 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 07:23:16 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:24:14 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 07:25:08 chpln [n=chris@ppp121-45-125-167.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:57 (defun sleep (hours time) (if (EQ time 200) (do-sleep hours) (NIL))) (sleep 6 228) 07:30:03 *mek||malloc* falls asleep. 07:30:28 *mek||malloc* wakes up and fixes his code. 07:30:43 (defun sleep (hours time) (if (EQ time 228) (do-sleep hours) (NIL))) (sleep 6 228) 07:30:49 *mek||malloc* falls back to sleep. 07:31:01 mek||malloc: we don't care. 07:31:18 good morning 07:31:54 morning 07:35:01 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:35:47 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 07:36:44 -!- chpln [n=chris@ppp121-45-125-167.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:41:35 -!- mek||malloc [n=Richard_@c-76-24-50-7.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:43:45 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-175.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 07:44:54 chpln [n=chpln@ppp121-45-125-167.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:50 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 08:02:03 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 08:03:47 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:05:09 louzer [n=user@nusnet-183-242.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #lisp 08:08:58 kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d67826981bb98a17] has joined #lisp 08:09:09 hello lispers 08:09:30 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 08:11:03 phao [n=phao@20158132013.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 08:11:19 -!- louzer [n=user@nusnet-183-242.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit ["hmm gotta go play"] 08:12:17 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 08:15:40 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:16:22 mulligan [n=user@75-20.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 08:17:50 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:18:40 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 08:22:12 hm...wow I so don't get how the cxml dom works 08:22:53 does anybody have a few code examples? 08:29:58 msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.dynamic.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:30:19 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:32:09 cYmen: example for what kind of task? what exactly is it that you are trying to do? 08:33:33 lichtblau: something so profoundly simple it's embarassing :) 08:33:57 just get some node attributes and names 08:33:57 mulligan` [n=user@75-102.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 08:34:28 nimo [n=user@116.224.219.168] has joined #lisp 08:34:41 but I can't even figure out how to get something reasonable out of # 08:34:52 -!- cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has left #lisp 08:34:53 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-19-75.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:30 http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Core/core.html#ID-FF21A306 08:35:52 That's the CharacterData superinterface of Text. Note the attribute called `data'. 08:36:05 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:36:30 Then check http://common-lisp.net/project/cxml/dom.html#mapping for the Lisp name of that method, which turns out to be DOM:DATA 08:36:41 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:36:45 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:52 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 08:38:04 ah crap...had applied it to the wrong element >_< 08:38:22 thanks, david! :) 08:41:26 -!- mulligan` [n=user@75-102.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:44:10 -!- ivanst [i=ivans@93-138-57-231.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:49:14 Beeet [n=stathis@wifi139-50.pubaccess.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 08:49:16 -!- mulligan [n=user@75-20.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:55:30 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:40 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:59:04 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:05:49 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:09:35 trying to get ABCL to run in .Net using IKVM .. has anyone done this? its slow as heck but it just might work 09:10:25 the reasons it might not is the interactionsin building of .abcl(s) but about to find out 09:10:57 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:11:07 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:13:09 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:57 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:26:03 -!- keram [n=oof@unaffiliated/keram] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:26:09 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:27:26 nostoi [n=nostoi@187.Red-81-39-225.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:22 user__ [n=user@p5492542B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:20 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:31:31 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:15 -!- user__ [n=user@p5492542B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:40:56 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 09:41:36 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 09:42:04 ivanst [i=ivans@93-138-90-176.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:42:43 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:45:15 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:51:46 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@187.Red-81-39-225.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:52:10 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:52:22 stassats [n=stassats@ppp91-122-108-195.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 09:56:31 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 09:56:39 g'day everyone 09:57:06 hello spiaggia 09:58:58 hello spiaggia 10:02:51 kuwabara_ [n=Kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has joined #lisp 10:02:52 -!- kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:02:53 -!- kuwabara_ is now known as kuwabara 10:04:34 -!- BrianRice-mb is now known as BrianRice 10:04:50 user__ [n=user@p5492542B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:51 Pretty quiet here today. 10:06:36 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:07:33 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@wifi139-50.pubaccess.auth.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:08:54 user pasted "hmm.." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71063 10:10:08 hold on, grabbing cvs sbcl 10:10:17 You probably have a file with latin-1 characters in it, and you are trying to read it using utf-8. 10:10:58 spiaggia: ah, latin-1 is not included in utf-8? 10:11:05 nope 10:11:13 tvm 10:11:45 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:12:00 latin-1 characters with a code point between 128 and 255 are coded with 2 bytes in utf-8. 10:14:09 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:14:35 169 seems to be the copyright symbol. 10:16:06 blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.223] has joined #lisp 10:17:06 mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:19:38 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:20:56 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:32:31 -!- user__ [n=user@p5492542B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:35:22 -!- chpln [n=chpln@ppp121-45-125-167.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:42:08 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 10:42:29 Reini_Urban [n=chatzill@212-183-62-118.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:00:14 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-50-127.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:07:35 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 11:16:30 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-4-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:18:50 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:24:35 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:25:16 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:25:16 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm231.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:25:16 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:25:16 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:25:16 -!- Thas [n=weechat@97-113-38-116.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:25:22 tiesje`` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 11:25:23 mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:25:23 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm231.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 11:25:23 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:23 maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #lisp 11:25:23 Thas [n=weechat@97-113-38-116.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:54 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:27:27 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-40-130.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:31:49 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:31:55 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:31:57 crod [n=cmell@cb8a60-050.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:33:39 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@d28851-201.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:37:59 q 11:44:06 are there any libs for date/time mangling in lisp? 11:44:40 -!- nimo [n=user@116.224.219.168] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:47:41 cYmen: http://common-lisp.net/project/local-time/ 11:48:43 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 11:49:12 locklace: looks awesome 11:49:16 thanks :) 11:53:15 -!- tiesje`` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 12:00:38 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-19-75.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 12:04:01 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:52 athos [n=philipp@p54B8723A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:01 vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:06:06 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177123057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 12:08:15 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:09:35 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:11:19 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:12:36 argh. M-space in the currenty slime repl moves the cursor behind the CL-USER> prompt 12:13:43 trittweil [n=trittwei@macbroy28.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:15:35 so it does 12:15:43 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:16:43 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B8723A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 12:16:49 hi 12:16:59 athos [n=philipp@p54B8723A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:02 manuel_: moin! 12:18:31 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:16 V-ille, e271, or others: i wonder why .abcl is not just named .jar and .cls is not just named .class 12:19:39 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:19:52 its confusing IKVM a little 12:22:01 i guess i am wondering if it was would it act identically? 12:23:54 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit ["Rebooting machine :-)"] 12:27:07 elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has joined #lisp 12:28:38 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.71.111] has joined #lisp 12:31:09 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 12:34:49 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:39:05 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 12:39:09 If I (setf (fdefinition 'some-symbol) #'another-symbol) where another-symbol's fdefinition is a generic function, is it guaranteed safe to defmethod on both names? 12:40:15 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 12:40:34 masm [n=masm@213.22.190.91] has joined #lisp 12:41:00 Using ADD-METHOD on SOME-SYMBOL should be safe, I"m not exactly sure about your case 12:41:09 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.190.91] has quit [Client Quit] 12:41:17 on #'some-symbol that is 12:41:53 anyone know is lispworks still doing that half-price offer? 12:42:56 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-36-181.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:45:38 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:48:45 masm [n=masm@213.22.190.91] has joined #lisp 12:51:29 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:51:55 hmm, it appears to be safe; that is, the spec does not seem to allow short-circuiting the GF lookup 12:52:47 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0D49.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:54:25 Hi! For SBCL, how important is the ~/.cache directory? 12:55:37 nil? 12:56:12 OK 12:57:19 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Operation timed out] 12:57:19 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:59:18 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:59:44 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4099.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:02:14 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:05:42 hefner: I think I figured out how to handle repaint in the per-sheet framebuffer backend that I am working on. 13:05:51 hefner: though I haven't implemented it yet. 13:07:11 hefner: essentially: Catch the repaint in an :around method. If the region to repaint is entirely within the framebuffer, satisfy the repaint from there. Otherwise, clear the region in the framebuffer, then (call-next-method), then transfer the repainted region to the server. 13:07:37 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 13:08:02 kami- pasted "function used in macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71067 13:08:35 spiaggia: okay. what about drawing outside of repaint methods? 13:08:57 I get an error when asdf:load ing python-on-lisp. Because of the the function which is used in a macro. 13:09:10 as stated by the comment 13:09:11 hefner: I don't see that as a problem. 13:09:23 function must be defined before used 13:09:33 clhs eval-when 13:09:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm 13:09:38 hefner: I have already implemented that, at least for rectangles and for the font system I am working on. 13:09:40 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:10:08 stassats: thank you. 13:10:25 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:38 spiaggia: but when is it displayed? 13:11:37 hefner: I have an :after method on redisplay-frame-pane or something like that. 13:12:37 s/or something like that// 13:12:50 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.190.91] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:15:37 coarse granularity 13:15:47 *lichtblau* tries to understand why a framebuffer backend would have to deal with redisplay-frame-pane when double buffering in gtkairo doesn't, but can't recall when exactly mediums are invalidated in gtkairo; gives up 13:16:18 It would be possible to transfer a particular region to the server after each drawing primitive. 13:16:39 that would be very slow 13:17:54 (ISTR there's something related to the event loop that calls PORT-FORCE-OUTPUT regularly, which calls MEDIUM-FORCE-OUTPUT on mediums marked as dirty by medium operations, which invalidates the X window, leading to a repaint event that then bitblts the buffer to the window, but I'm not sure.) 13:18:27 I don't remember any such thing. 13:18:40 which of course doesn't mean anything :( 13:18:57 the port-force-output certain occurs, I fiddled with that on the clx backend (I think it's wired into event reading..) 13:19:03 I don't know anything about dirty mediums 13:19:36 I think my current solution is good enough for panes with :display-time :command-loop (or whatever it's called). 13:19:40 what I was getting at, though, was that it might be useful to display to the screen upon medium-force-output 13:20:28 my mcclim hacklets often bypass the redisplay and command loop machinery :) 13:21:15 hefner: also, I am not so sure that it would be too slow to do that after each drawing primitive (assuming that draw-text* is the smallest unit, and that more than a character is drawn at once). 13:21:48 sure, if everything else is slow enough, you won't notice the overhead 13:22:04 what if I'm drawing random diagonal lines across a large pane? 13:22:22 lasts_ [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 13:23:19 -!- lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:26:02 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:26:12 Complete avoidance of flicker is THE advantage of going through a buffer. Bitblting even parts of that buffer to the screen before drawing is finished would ruin that. 13:27:32 in this instance, that's just a matter of surpressing the copy if some double buffering flag is true 13:27:54 athos_ [n=philipp@p54B849C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:08 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 13:34:56 Perhaps in a hypothetical CLIM 3, anything running in the command loop should always go through output recording and never call medium functions. Only repaint event handlers would write to mediums. 13:35:14 maybe a hypothetical clim 3 shouldn't have some crappy command framework 13:36:43 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:40:21 does CLIM eat its young? 13:40:59 that's what DUIM does, isn't it? The `lisp listener construction kit' features would be a layer on top of ordinary gadgets. (Would, if anyone had come around to implementing that extra layer for DUIM.) 13:41:17 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 13:42:04 is there an urlencode function in some open source library or do I have to write my own? 13:42:48 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:23 mcxx: there are dozens. do you use a web server? 13:43:35 mcxx: (i mean a web server written in lisp) 13:43:56 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:44:20 hunchentoot for one of my projects 13:44:41 mcxx: hunchentoot has urlencode and urldecode functions. 13:45:00 url-encode and url-decode, actually 13:45:14 -!- lasts_ [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:45:24 hefner: random diagonal lines would be a problem. 13:45:40 ah, I see it now, thanks 13:47:18 lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 13:47:39 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:48:49 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:14 jlilly__ [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:50:02 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B8723A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:51:11 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:53:54 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C5D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-36-80.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 13:55:24 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-36-80.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:58 x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-175.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:19 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:43 appletizer [i=a@82-46-31-101.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:05:50 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-175.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:42 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-252.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:11:05 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 14:12:04 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:31 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:13:25 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0ED8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:14:47 deximer [n=deximer@pool-151-203-102-92.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:19 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 14:15:50 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 14:16:45 jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-103-31.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:18:26 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 14:19:20 dmiles_afk: They are not named like their java-bytecode counterparts because they are not loadable by java programs, directly. 14:19:45 dmiles_afk: Have you gotten anywhere running abcl with IKVM? I was also planning to try it at some point.. 14:20:21 yes just finally got it ;P 14:21:15 i had to make a few changes, i had to keep .abcl files in a intially hard set *LISP-HOME* 14:22:05 -!- deximer [n=deximer@pool-151-203-102-92.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:22:33 also had to break out Symbol.java static final symbols to their own file and a few other things.. mostly a naive load order that IKVM uses 14:22:56 arbitrating s very carefully 14:23:41 deximer [n=deximer@pool-151-203-102-92.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:08 bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:08 IKVM has a special URL protocal called "ikvmres" instead of "jar" 14:25:43 i been trying to get the .abcl packed into the .dll to work right.. but somehow abcl kept trying to treat them as text files and pump them through the same facilty as .lisp 14:27:09 i am runinng the ANSI-TESTs now.. looks like it passes and fails the same ones so far 14:28:05 inetic pasted "setting key bindings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71068 14:28:28 mono/ikvm has some wierd performance issues having to do the the bohehm gc, but, it should pick up speed in a few 14:28:51 it kinda acts like that defuctedness of java 1.6 14:29:26 ups, wrong channel, sorry 14:30:13 you're running abcl on mono? 14:30:35 VMs on VMs on VMs :) 14:30:51 (for extra points, run Mono on an IBM s390 or similar) 14:32:05 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.130.73] has joined #lisp 14:32:24 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:46 rsynnott, yp :) 14:32:55 rsynnott: running on an Hercules running on emulated Vax running on Emulated Alpha running on .... 14:33:01 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:11 -!- yonatan [n=yonatan@89.139.26.111] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:37:39 cipher [n=cipher@pool-98-118-51-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:56 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:39:56 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-6084e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["leaving"] 14:39:58 -!- jlilly__ [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:40:16 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:41:34 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:43 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-71-249-109-124.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:33 ok i admit it, xmonad's pretty neat 14:42:47 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 14:42:54 mbac, must you admit this here? 14:43:28 mbac: That's funny. I was just thinking how incredibly annoying it is. 14:43:57 schme_: in what way? 14:44:43 vixey, no, i mustn't 14:45:13 p_l: Well.. it does strike me as the wrong channel here, but also it seems a bit dead at the moment. So first off there's the insane handling of multiple screens, and well.. I seem to be going more and more towards using apps where I indeed enjoy placing my windows, and the float layer really blows :) 14:45:52 If you can compare it to StumpWM, it might be on-topic. 14:46:35 Well... seeing how I switched to it from stumpwm what can I say. The autotiling is lovely. 14:46:55 insane handling of multiple screens? I found that it's actually one of the rare that implement X11 multi-screen correctly (haven't yet tried StumpWM) instead of relying on X11 making it into one big framebuffer 14:46:58 But I think I've outgrown tiled keyboard based shittery now. 14:47:19 p_l: It seems to put one workgroup on screen #1 and another on screen #2 for me. 14:48:08 That's the insane part. 14:48:37 schme_: Well, I don't see anything insane in it, maybe because by X11 spec, those are separate screens anyway 14:49:18 p_l: Well in my book it's insane. I have two screens so I can have big windows. 14:49:44 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-103-31.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:49:58 p_l: fuck the spec; X11 is a tool. 14:50:15 schme_: Well then... don't use X11? (joking) XMonad was not designed to work with the "one big framebuffer" scheme pursued by MS Windows 14:50:15 is auto-bignumming a standard lisp thing or an implementation detail? 14:50:39 mbac: it's standard 14:50:39 mbac, part of the language 14:50:59 i've been frustrated that i could pick up brand new languages in 2008 and still have to worry about the size of my ints 14:51:00 p_l: Yes, exactly. That's the problem. xmonad's design is flawed. That and the annoying bit where I can turn on/off mouse follows focus without reloading. 14:51:05 oh weare back to lisp :) 14:51:13 so lisp's an interesting change of pace here 14:51:16 how long has that been in place? 14:51:17 mbac, there's no need to worry you just have to read the specifications 14:51:41 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 14:51:50 mbac: around 20 years, more if you go back to the predecessors of CL 14:51:52 mbac: 20+ years 14:53:07 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.130.73] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:54:28 auto bignum on ints but not on floats? 14:55:27 Nate75Sanders [n=nate@cpe-76-88-157-74.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:30 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:57:48 mbac: CL has real rationals, Clisp (the implementation) also supports bigfloats. 14:57:59 Oh see the pun! 15:00:17 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D111.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:24 [28]> (+ 1/2 3/4) 15:00:24 5/4 15:00:31 ok. whoa. 15:03:09 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:08 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:54 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4099.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:05:44 nimo [n=user@116.224.219.168] has joined #lisp 15:06:17 mbac: 1/2 and 3/4 are, I believe, also exactly representable as floating point numbers; and I think the sum of two such floats is guaranteed to be exact again. 15:06:53 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 15:07:15 so it's not the best case you could have come up with :) 15:07:32 trittweil: modulo mantissa. 15:07:44 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:36 i'm still getting over the mere idea that i could syntactically represent a fraction as if it weren't a second class citizen 15:09:37 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 15:09:51 indeed! Finally, the power of graphing calculators from the 80s on the server and desktop! 15:09:54 :) 15:11:22 (confusingly, TI has a calculator called Explorer; no relation to the other TI Explorer, I don't think) 15:13:26 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:14:30 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:08 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-36-181.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [] 15:16:58 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:37 -!- deximer [n=deximer@pool-151-203-102-92.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:20:08 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4099.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:20:22 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:35 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:23:32 setf [i=54a64cd1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ce9e830ba4ad4943] has joined #lisp 15:24:01 -!- trittweil [n=trittwei@macbroy28.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:26:05 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:31 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:33:56 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:44 drewr [n=drew@adsl-065-013-142-013.sip.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:34 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:18 willb [n=wibenton@wireless57.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:38:39 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:41 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-71-249-109-124.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 15:39:42 -!- kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d67826981bb98a17] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:42:57 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:45:45 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@p54B849C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:46:02 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-220-40.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:46:46 -!- froog__ is now known as froog 15:48:34 milanj [n=milan@77.46.174.243] has joined #lisp 15:49:30 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 15:49:59 oudeis [n=oudeis@89.139.93.140] has joined #lisp 15:52:35 -!- Mannerisky [n=manneris@24-117-137-23.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:54:20 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:54:42 Hmm, what happened to Xach? 15:54:53 who cares 15:55:00 most of us 15:55:08 vixey: what slyrus_ said. 15:55:17 morning 15:56:01 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:56:32 lichtblau: did I mention that clim-gtkairo seems busted for me these days? 15:56:55 vixey: you're not very nice, are you? 15:57:09 luis: he's obviously still about; he added a wigflip thingy 15:57:16 maybe he's taking a holiday from IRC :) 15:57:29 *H4ns* also saw him in #ccl earlier today 15:57:38 rsynnott, fuck off 15:57:46 erm. 15:57:52 see what I mean? 15:58:21 vixey, please be civil. 15:58:55 slyrus_: no, but I noticed that myself. Perhaps we're lucky and someone turns up to fix it. :-) 16:00:00 in the meantime, you can just use the frighteningly ugly backend :) 16:00:42 curtosis [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.235.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:48 thanks to hefner it's not so bad with the pixie look 16:02:55 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:04:25 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:04:25 Sigh. 16:04:37 vixey: Didn't I ask you to be nice? 16:04:43 yeah I tried 16:04:49 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler 16:04:54 -!- chandler has set mode +b %vixey!*@* 16:05:07 vixey: Well, I'm happy to assist if your own efforts aren't enough. 16:05:09 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 16:05:56 luis: He is signed on, but he's not in the channel. I asked him this morning in #ccl and he did not respond, but maybe you'll have better luck. 16:13:02 minion: chant to vixey 16:13:03 vixey: MORE IF 16:14:08 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:00 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:18:31 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89.139.93.140] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:19:31 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 16:20:52 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:23:54 telaviv_ [n=sean@hil-101-214.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:24:34 does anyone know of any sort of cl interface to Java? 16:24:40 an FFI like thing? 16:24:50 rsynnott: jfli 16:25:03 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 16:25:07 rsynnott: but it only works on LW currently. 16:25:20 heh, worth a try :) 16:25:34 or, you could just embed ABCL 16:25:43 (I'm still trying to figure out a way to do a nice-ish cross-platform UI without buying LW or going mad) 16:25:54 rsynnott: or use corba :D 16:26:08 I won't dignify that with a response :P 16:26:19 ah, the ol' cross-platform UI problem 16:26:56 i ve got a strange problem ... i ve got an error Heap exhausted during allocation: 3158016 bytes available, 4456456 requested 16:27:43 rsynnott: If for some reason Java is the answer to that problem (which I'm not at all sure of), ABCL would be an interesting way to do it 16:28:09 i launch like that : sbcl-git --script misc/ut-cover.lisp ... 3 times i ve got this error but after another test it works fine ... 16:29:37 -!- drewr [n=drew@pdpc/supporter/professional/drewr] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:38:12 l_a_m: you might need to increase your heap size 16:38:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-36-80.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 16:38:36 any idea what's doing the big allocation? 16:38:42 no 16:38:51 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:38:52 rsynnott: i ve got this error during my slime session ... 16:39:04 (last time that happened to me it was a very big hash-table; they tend to grow by a half when they run out of space by default) 16:39:08 rsynnott: after that i try in a shell ... same problem 16:39:40 rsynnott: i use cl-ppcre, lift , url-rewrite and sb-cover in theses files 16:39:42 dabd [n=dabd@213.22.161.232] has joined #lisp 16:39:50 but don t really have any idea 16:39:58 ah, cl-ppcre can allocate a lot of memory if you're not careful 16:40:10 l_a_m: are you on a vps or on a memory starved system? 16:40:26 are you creating scanners once, or each time the function[s] using the scanners runs? 16:40:26 l_a_m: did you look in /var/log/messages for any "out of swap space" messages? 16:40:34 luis: try (setf cl-ppcre:*use-bmh-matchers* nil) 16:40:58 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:09 H4ns: i will look at this ... 16:41:30 rsynnott: each time i think ... 16:41:31 the bmh nil line has been the solution to several psychic lisp debugging sessions here 16:41:36 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:42:10 possibly better do it once (let ((my-scanner (cl-ppcre:bla..))) (defun my-scanner-using-function () (do-something scanner text)) 16:42:29 this is the dark size of unicode support, of course :) 16:44:57 rsynnott: i use each time : (cl-ppcre:scan "..." .....) 16:45:22 dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:32 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-175.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:52 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:47:10 l_a_m: memory usage should at least be more stable if you use create-scanner to make each scanner you need once, then pass it as an argument to scan 16:48:02 (the bmh thing should also help) 16:48:02 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:03 l_a_m: if you are not using a high debug setting, a compiler macro will automatically create the scanner at compile time for you. 16:48:07 -!- telaviv_ [n=sean@hil-101-214.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has left #lisp 16:48:18 (or if you're sure you're only getting ascii, you can do something to tell cl-ppcre that, but it's probably not a great idea) 16:48:24 l_a_m: if you don't need unicode, set cl-ppcre:*regex-char-code-limit* to 256 to drastically reduce you memory requirements. 16:48:50 -!- dnolen_ [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:51:13 Hi! Anybody using clbuild here? 16:51:41 I do, but I don't know much about it :) 16:51:53 joga: Do you use it on a regular basis? 16:52:31 rsynnott: i could create scanner using defparameter ? ... and use it in each functions ... 16:52:32 ebzzry, well...if I need to install a lib I look there first, but since I currently have all I need, I haven't done it in a while 16:52:55 joga: How do you update the libraries? Manual? 16:52:56 l_a_m: if it's the same scanner each time, yep 16:53:07 ebzzry, good question, I'd need to find out since I've forgot :) 16:53:09 l_a_m: did you understand what i wrote about the compiler macro? it is unlikely that you'll solve your problem by guessing. 16:53:38 H4ns: i think i missed your comment .... 16:53:51 H4ns: using cl-ppcre:*regex-char-code-limit* ? 16:53:55 What is the suggested way to have the latest versions of libraries, aside from manually fetchingthem? 16:54:01 ebzzry: How do you update through clbuild? darcs pull; ./clbuild update --installed 16:54:07 H4ns: ok i will try ... 16:54:10 l_a_m: no. create-scanner is automatically called for you by a compiler macro, no need for defparameter. 16:54:13 H4ns: if he's using the same scanner in multiple functions, will the compiler macro produce the result for each function, or is it clever enough to do it once globally? 16:54:14 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:54:33 H4ns: ok 16:54:33 ahaas: Yes. But I'm having this odd problem. I've been pulling my hair for the past hours. 16:54:48 rsynnott: no, it will not help you with that. 16:54:57 ebzzry: What's the problem? 16:55:05 in that case, the defparameter MIGHT still be justified 16:55:13 (if he's using the same scanner in more than one fun) 16:55:25 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-135-42.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:55:49 rsynnott: agreed - i'd still recommend not messing around with defparamter and the like until the problem really has been pinpointed to be related to that. 16:56:28 rsynnott: it _may_ be cl-ppcre's fault, but so far, that just has been one guess, even if it may have been a good guess. 16:56:48 *rsynnott* always suspects cl-ppcre when this happens 16:56:55 :) 16:57:50 ahaas: First, I'm using the USER_INIT and SETF_CENTRAL_REGISTRY variables of clbuild.conf. In the file pointed to by USER_INIT I have lines that contain several REQUIREs. One time it works, next time, it doesn't complaining about: "Don't know how to REQUIRE PACKAGENAMEHERE". Huh? 16:58:10 s/doesn't/doesn't,/ 16:58:14 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 16:59:21 ebzzry: When does this problem occur? 16:59:23 SETF_CENTRAL_REGISTRY=yes is actually the default. Do you mean that you're _not_ using it? 16:59:24 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:59:27 H4ns: i try (setf cl-ppcre:*regex-char-code-limit* 256) but i ve got the heap error ... 16:59:59 H4ns: oh sorry .... mistake ... 17:00:05 ahaas: BUT, it does work when, I comment that REQUIRE line, run "clbuild lisp" then if I perform the "(require ...)" manually, it does work. 17:00:28 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:45 ahaas: SETF_CENTRAL_REGISTRY is by default commented. What's active is "unset SETF_CENTRAL_REGISTRY" by default. 17:01:07 besiria [n=user@ppp083212085084.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 17:01:30 ebzzry: So what action are you performing when you see this error? 17:01:36 ebzzry: aha, so it doesn't fail randomly but is actually reproducible? 17:01:57 ahaas: Just "clbuild lisp" 17:02:08 lichtblau: Yes and no. That's what I'm trying to do, reproduce it. 17:02:45 lichtblau: I have this require line, run "clbuild lisp", and it works. New tab, run "clbuild lisp", and then it complains! 17:02:48 ebzzry: anyway, if configured like that, .sbclrc is loaded before --eval forms are evaluated, meaning that clbuild hasn't configured ASDF yet while .sbclrc does its thing 17:03:41 lichtblau: .sbclrc? Are you referring to the .sbclrc as pointed to by USER_INIT? If not, clbuild doesn't read it by default. It ignores it. 17:04:18 lichtblau: And, I do have "(require :asdf)" as topmost expr in the file pointed to by USER_INIT. 17:04:25 Yes, I know. That's how I implemented it. 17:04:25 -!- Nate75Sanders [n=nate@cpe-76-88-157-74.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 17:05:06 lichtblau: How can I reproduce it? I'm lost. 17:05:22 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:15 lichtblau: Anyway, if that's the case, how can I make it read the file pointed to by USER_INIT correctly? 17:06:36 lichtblau: I'm using the vanilla setup, no frills or whatsoever. 17:06:39 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:07:24 i wonder how i broke slime 17:07:36 do you? 17:08:08 Sorry, but I can't figure out what configuration you're using from what you're saying. 17:08:41 Anyway, I'm afk now. Let me know if you can actually reproduce a problem. 17:08:49 ebzzry: maybe past the file with the requires to lisppaste 17:08:53 "No ESS processes running." when i try to compile 17:09:04 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:09:06 ahaas: OK 17:09:44 i guess slime's keybindings aren't binding 17:10:31 replaca [n=tom@76-191-193-111.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:48 ebzzry: I have to go, but there are more than a few people here who use clbuild. 17:12:52 ahaas: It's at: http://paste.lisp.org/display/71078 17:14:12 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:14:53 Yes, I used "clbuild install slime" to install slime. :-) 17:15:14 And slime.asd points to the correct file. 17:16:45 oh i see, slime is punishing me for calling the file foo.lsp instead of foo.lisp 17:18:01 durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has joined #lisp 17:19:14 lichtblau: My *module-provider-functions* is (ASDF::MODULE-PROVIDE-ASDF SB-IMPL::MODULE-PROVIDE-CONTRIB) 17:19:20 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:19:32 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:19:34 -!- durka is now known as durkafk 17:21:01 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:21:05 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 17:21:13 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:22:07 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:15 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:30:04 xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:30:47 cpape [n=user@p5484DAC2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:18 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:32:38 vasa [n=vasa@mm-74-85-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 17:33:14 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:33:32 hmm. i just got my hands on a PowerPC POWER 5, dual 1650mhz. :) 17:33:51 Nice! 17:34:03 it's like an expensive G5! :) 17:34:12 what're you going to do with it? 17:34:14 hypno, what's the name of the entire package? 17:35:27 rsynnott: my "partner" is trying to partner up with IBM wrt. Oracle delivery. 17:36:04 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:36:24 Runs Lisp, I presume? 17:36:50 Sorry to buzz in. Since my question earlier is left in the air, I'd take this opportunity now to ask you guys: Do you manage the updating of libaries that you use, manually or use an application to do it for you? If not manual, what is it that you use to do the tedious job of updating? 17:37:07 tic: heh, havent come that far yet. dont know if there is support even? 17:37:08 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-27-126.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:37:16 ebzzry: I use clbuild. 17:37:38 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:38:04 luis: OK great. Have you experienced the my problems that I stated earlier? 17:38:22 how do i execute two separate null evaluating-to statements in a place that expects only one? 17:38:47 hypno, SBCL runs on PPC, so maybe that? Don't know how different POWER is from PPC. 17:38:48 for instance (if (test) (x; y)) 17:38:52 -!- [Head|Rest] [i=kvirc@217.149.187.128] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:39:19 mbac: you mean execute (evaluate) x, then y ? 17:39:26 tic: sbcl doesnt run on aix tho, does it? 17:39:30 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:40 luis: I'm sorry, I didn't notice that cl.net/~loliveira/ is yours. 17:39:42 hypno, no idea. 17:39:48 i'll probably manage to get ECL going tho. 17:39:48 mvilleneuve: exactly 17:39:56 mbac: (progn x y) 17:39:57 ECL or Clisp! 17:39:57 mbac: I think you want PROGN 17:40:41 mbac: but in that particular case, it should be (when (test) x y) 17:41:03 bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-174-7.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:41:20 I believe Power5 and PPC970 were a unification effort of sorts; they both run the same code 17:41:36 (though PPC970 has more microcoding for the more obsure POWER instructions) 17:41:49 it feels way snappier than sparc64, at least. that's for sure. 17:41:49 can I declare a function in one file and define it in another in lisp? 17:42:00 -!- vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has left #lisp 17:42:08 ebzzry: works OK for me. 17:42:11 the cheap version of the POWER6 is just a POWER6 with less cache and so on; they don't seem to have produced a PPC variant 17:42:12 luis: Do you know why does "clbuild lisp" complain about "Don't know how to REQUIRE PACKAGENAME" when I only have (require :asdf) (require :swank) in the file pointed to by USER_INIT? 17:42:20 hypno: you could run linux on it :) 17:42:29 manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d037997.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:47 hypno: doing what? 17:42:47 hypno: which OS are you running? SBCL and OpenMCL should run out of the box on Linux. AIX would be a different animal. 17:42:55 luis: s/PACKAGENAME/SWANK/ 17:43:14 also, don't think either sbcl or openmcl run 64bit on PPC 17:43:22 chandler: it's AIX :/ 17:43:35 ebzzry: are you using SBCL? 17:43:46 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:43:47 luis: Yes, the one built by clbuild 17:44:15 luis: The one I have now is 1.0.22.19 17:44:53 ebzzry: does it work if you remove those requires from the USER_INIT file and load them manually afterwards? 17:45:04 luis: Good question. Yes. 17:45:15 hmm, AIX would seem to be about the only weirdo unix thing that the commercial impls don't run on 17:45:32 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:42 oh, no, allegro works on AIX PPC 17:45:58 64bit and everything :) 17:46:34 -!- bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-174-7.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 17:46:48 heh. 17:46:51 *rsynnott* wonders just how many licencees they have for that one 17:47:21 oh, and Liquid Common Lisp runs on AIX on an RS/6000 17:47:28 which isn't, I think, quite a PPC 17:47:31 v3rt [n=mor_och_@c83-252-174-7.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:47:35 ebzzry: have a look at clbuild_lisp() in the clbuild script. It seems that the USER_INIT file is loaded before asdf:*central-registry* is set. Try moving $common_options down in that command. 17:47:35 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:47:49 luis: I'll go check. 17:49:03 ebzzry: an alternative, would be to dump a core with ASDF and SWANK, perhaps. 17:50:31 luis: Moving $common_options doesn't work. 17:50:42 luis: I'll try that. 17:53:32 luis: Do I need to make START_SLIME_USING_CORE=y active? 17:53:42 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-220-40.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:18 ebzzry: I don't know. Try it, I guess. 17:54:30 luis: I'll try different configurations. 17:55:18 ebzzry: I suppose that if you really want to load system in the user init file you can (require :asdf) there and (push #p"/home/ebzzry/clbuild/systems/" asdf:*central-registry*) 17:56:17 But that directory (or its equivalent to mine), is already present in asdf:*central-registry* 17:56:35 luis: I'll try. 17:57:06 ebzzry: apparently it isn't, otherwise I would have expected (require :swank) to work. 17:58:42 luis: Even after setting USER_INIT=/dev/null, asdf:*central-registry* => (#p"/path/to/clbuild/systems/") 17:59:12 ebzzry: clbuild passes --eval "(setf asdf:*central-registry* ...) 17:59:25 to SBCL. 17:59:48 *luis* curses his keyboard's placement of the Enter key. 18:00:13 *ebzzry* suggests to use Kinesis keyboards 18:00:21 luis: My bad. Yes, that works. 18:00:33 The push method works. 18:00:50 luis: Now, why is this needed? 18:01:33 ebzzry: what are you trying to do? 18:02:19 luis: What do you mean? On the very basic level trying to get the latest versions of libraries with the least manual intervention. 18:02:49 luis: Why does (push ... asdf:*central-registry*) make things work? 18:02:50 ebzzry: yes but you're loading swank from the init file, why? 18:03:13 ebzzry: ah, because then REQUIRE knows where to find the SWANK system. 18:04:03 luis: Oh that one, for convenience purposes. Because if I load slime from Emacs, and if Emacs dies, I lose the state. I load swank from the command-line then connect to it. 18:04:33 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 18:04:44 luis: Regarding the require, shouldn't it be able to do it on its own? 18:04:56 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 18:05:03 luis: Since swank/slime was installed by clbuild itself. 18:05:45 ebzzry: clbuild sets things up, but then you have point SBCL at the .asd files. 18:05:52 *have to point 18:06:50 ebzzry: I don't remember where I learned how ASDF works, but maybe the ASDF manual will give you some insight. Also, there have been some Planet Lisp blog posts about ASDF, IIRC. 18:07:34 luis: I have to point? Then why does asdf:*central-registry* have (#p"/path/to/clbuild/systems/") when I run "clbuild lisp" with USER_INIT set to /dev/null? 18:08:08 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:08:53 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:09:21 ebzzry: like I said, clbuild invokes SBCL like this: sbcl --eval "(setf asdf:*central-registry* ...)" ... 18:10:40 luis: Yes, but why does it work when I have to push the same path to *central-registry*? 18:11:19 ebzzry: IIUC, SBCL first loads the init file and only afterwards does it evaluate the --eval forms. 18:13:09 luis: Hmm. Anyway, I've got plenty of things to explain to Faré. 18:14:24 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:14:41 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:14:45 luis: Thank you very much for your help. 18:16:10 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:35 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 18:17:07 lichtblau & ahaas: Thanks. 18:19:10 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-124-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:37 ebzzry: sure, np. 18:21:01 luis: And thanks for the repository. 18:21:37 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085084.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:21:45 ebzzry: ediware? 18:22:15 luis: No. Your organized repository at c-l.net/~loliveira 18:23:18 syamajala [n=syamajal@24.147.105.41] has joined #lisp 18:23:54 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:24:03 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:24:07 ajhager [n=ajhager@adsl-75-46-79-168.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:26 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:26:11 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:08 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d037997.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [] 18:33:00 benny [n=benny@i577A0D49.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:38:27 -!- nimo [n=user@116.224.219.168] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:29 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:39:16 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41:37 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:42:51 rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-50-105.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:42:53 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:43:00 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:44:35 josemanuel [n=josemanu@30.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:47:45 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-124-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:52:02 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 18:52:59 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-124-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:40 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:54 setf, now side effect free 18:54:09 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@adsl-75-46-79-168.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:54:33 setf: what? the effect faded away already? :) 18:55:31 drewr [n=drew@adsl-065-013-142-013.sip.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:16 what is usual compatibility socket layer, usocket ? 18:57:53 usocket is pretty common 18:59:03 yep, looks like, on trivial-socket page is recomendation for usocket 18:59:04 milanj: or iolib if you don't care for windoze 18:59:18 yes, i dont care 18:59:30 thanks 18:59:49 *attila_lendvai* is quite happy with iolib 19:00:20 -!- Reini_Urban [n=chatzill@212-183-62-118.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:00:43 kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:06 what are zeta streams? 19:06:20 lichtblau: an attempt at making a simple-stream like library 19:06:56 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:07:29 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:07:56 oh look, iolib has texinfo documentation. I wasn't aware of that. 19:08:16 :D 19:08:44 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:08:59 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:24 fe[nl]ix: did you add new docs? 19:09:30 no 19:10:12 lichtblau: heh, well, then, there's texinfo but there isn't much documention, IIRC. 19:10:14 lichtblau: that isn't actual documentation, it's more a template for the docstrings 19:11:09 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [] 19:11:18 ok. still more than I expected. somehow I had associated iolib with attila and assumed that it's "tests only" :-) 19:12:10 attila was a technical writer in a past life :-) 19:14:24 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 19:15:14 ...and still remembers how worthless those things are... :) 19:16:50 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:17:00 hm, maybe i'm promoting iolib too much...? but it's one of those libs with which i'm the most comfortable navigating its source... 19:17:29 setf, beware of the side effect 19:18:40 what dependencies does iolib have 19:18:40 ebzzry: Sorry I had to run. I got a migraine. Did you get it resolved? 19:19:45 just saw them at cl.net 19:21:10 xristos: do you find the list of dependencies frightening ? 19:21:42 yes 19:23:13 why ? 19:23:14 i don't see whats so great about haskell 19:23:33 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:23:35 because they're too many 19:23:40 just started reading realworld haskell 19:24:45 xristos: too many according to what criteria ? 19:25:02 fe[nl]ix: my own 19:25:34 heh :) 19:25:44 don't take this as me complaining 19:25:54 just my view of the situation 19:26:17 it's not just you... it's a general habit of the lisp community to complain about dependencies (iow, code reuse) 19:27:38 (and then turn around and depend on everything under the sun in their next project) 19:27:49 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:06 (and add in everything over the sun in updates) 19:28:15 syamajala: To sum it the way someone in #haskell told it - "We've spent last few years on building a strong community and ensuring everything runs as smoothly as possible" 19:29:12 *jedi* these are not the problems you are looking for 19:32:01 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:33:41 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:40:17 -!- IKidnapGnomes [n=IKG@ikidnapgnomes.STUDENT.CWRU.Edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:43:55 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@24.147.105.41] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:44:49 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.189.217] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:44:56 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.214.241] has joined #lisp 19:45:08 rsynnott: abcl on mono/ikvm is not necessarily vm on vm on vm, if ikvm's compilation feature is used. After that abcl just runs on mono directly. 19:45:29 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 19:47:02 yes, ikvm creates a abcl.dll that can be embeded in any C#/J#/L#/P#/Vb.Net/etc/etc/etc 19:47:23 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:47:50 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:48:43 after i make a dll i do a ikvmc -out:ABCL.exe -r:junit.dll -r:CycLCore.dll -r:SubLCore.dll -main:org.armedbear.lisp.Main 19:49:16 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 19:49:27 attila_lendvai: do you think it'd be a good idea to make babel-streams a drop-in replacement for flexi-streams? 19:49:28 abcl is embeded in SubLCore.dll ... ikvmc -out:SubLCore.dll -recurse:build/jrtl -compressresources 19:49:37 dmiles_afk: What did the test results look like? 19:50:16 not very good.. it died 95% thru.. but in scroll back it failed the identical tests 19:50:27 Not bad at all, so far. 19:50:36 Do you have patches for the modifications you had to make? 19:51:00 MISC.511 19:51:05 is when it died 19:51:12 6476.36 seconds real time 19:51:12 12727405 cons cells 19:52:28 it was pretty extreme.. remember when i broke away the "extends Lisp" .. i was able to replace with : import static org.armedbear.lisp.Lisp 19:52:39 import static org.armedbear.lisp.Lisp.*; 19:53:14 Yeah, but that was for your hybrid lisp. What about the patches for making abcl run on ikvm? 19:53:14 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:18 that got rid of the src noise of Lisp. everywhere ;P i dont know why i didnt think of it 19:53:22 Are they equally extreme? 19:53:28 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 19:53:47 well breaking that out is part of the overly cautious s 19:54:10 ? What's that? 19:54:28 yes.. even more extreme 19:54:54 Any idea why they are that extreme? Would not a more conservative approach do? 19:55:01 its the class static constructors... that happen when the JVM first loads a class 19:55:33 i'll show you example of the delayed s on paistbin 19:56:20 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:15 Please do. So far this sounds (again) like something that's nowhere near the condition to be merged into abcl.. 19:58:13 ..which is a shame, because I know not of a common lisp implementation for .net. There are some scheme implementations for .net, but those are of no interest to me. 19:59:03 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@92.41.232.146.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:00:16 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@92.41.232.146.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has left #lisp 20:01:05 dmiles pasted "Delayed_Init" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71084 20:01:40 how stable is ikvm 20:01:45 LispObjectFactory.addDelayedInit(Delayed_Init.class); 20:02:02 what that does is add an onstart hook 20:03:02 addDelay annotated #71084 with "dmiles" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71084#1 20:04:28 DelayedCallable annotated #71084 with "DelayedCallable " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71084#2 20:04:32 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 20:04:43 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 20:05:13 anyhow the point is to make sure the Primitives are referernec too early 20:05:25 Any disadvantage for cl development on mac compared to linux? 20:06:42 V-ille, yeah i did ikvmize it with the merged code, but i ikvmized a few things in the past, and ikvm can be niave about when to initialize class static fields.. lots and lots of null pointers in stock abcl 20:06:51 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:28 auclairb: I can't think of any. 20:07:34 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 20:07:37 'afternoon 20:08:54 dmiles_afk: Would you have any interest to provide ikvm-ization patches for abcl proper? 20:09:12 V-ille, if i method reference a class for instance, and your not ready to initialize the class fields yet.. in java thats ok.. it wont try to hit the class until the line that uses the class, in IKVM.. all classes refernced in method are initialized.. then the method starts 20:09:31 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:09:40 Which ikvm version are you using? 20:10:03 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:11 IKVM.OpenJDK.ClassLibrary: 0.36.0.11 20:10:44 yes .. i think i want to do this 20:11:02 with the stock ABCL.. and be sure to leave out my pet peeves 20:11:08 xristos: for all I know, IKVM is quite good 20:11:32 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:46 dmiles_afk: That would be nice. 20:12:05 in fact opensim (secondlife server) needs a lisp 20:12:25 we are using DotLisp right now and its horrid 20:13:05 sellout: would you consider mac to be preferable to linux regarding cl dev ? 20:13:13 DotLisp cant even represent a dotted cons.. we are only using dotlisp in the configuration scripts 20:13:18 dmiles_afk: Well, dotlisp is some sort of "dialect". 20:13:41 Non-common lisp dialects and scheme implementations are a dime a dozen. 20:13:56 we picked out DotLisp becasue it was deadish.. 20:14:13 dmiles_afk: not considering there might be a reason? :D 20:14:32 auclairb: well, I use CCL and the Cocoa bridge, so yeah, but I think they're probably on par modulo familiarity. 20:14:36 dmiles_afk: wait, you picked a piece of software *because* it was dead? that's.. awesome! 20:14:48 Well, it's not fast-moving then. :) 20:15:02 Deadish = stable? :) 20:15:15 a refreshing change from the usual "is SBCL still alive? they haven't done a release in three and a half weeks" nonsense 20:15:48 the cocoa bridge in CCL is really terribly impressive 20:15:56 So that's why ehu thinks it's so highly important to increase the release frequency for abcl.. 20:16:00 yeah.. hehe .. well we just wanted a vender that didnt update 20:16:04 V-ille: do compilers ever become stable? 20:16:17 Maybe, in some imaginary world. 20:17:06 i told them last night maybe well only need to rebuild the ABCL .dll once a year 20:17:10 It seems that many programming languages come up with new versions every now and then, even very old languages. Fortran and cobol come to mind. 20:17:33 dmiles_afk: Yes, you could just pick one release and stick to it. 20:17:52 And in my biased opinion, you might provide something that would be useful for other people. 20:19:29 13 hours ago i was pitching this.. funny 20:19:32 V-ille: yes, and then everyone ignores them 20:19:35 (poor C99!) 20:19:48 I don't think GCC even supports it entirely 20:20:01 and soon we'll have C++0x 20:20:10 It supports almost everything 20:20:23 (in a way, maybe it's a good thing that CL stopped at a single standards iteration) 20:20:27 ABCL is the only thing that gets anything .NET remotely close to ansi lisp 20:20:38 vtz [n=user@router2-border.mreja.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:41 I hope C++0x is better than its name 20:20:43 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-27-126.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [] 20:20:52 dmiles_afk: there's a .NET interaction lib, though 20:21:02 (with a totally un-memorable name) 20:21:02 dmiles_afk: That's what I've found, when looking for common lisps for .net. There are none. 20:21:12 rsynnott: RDNZL ? 20:21:13 rdnzl 20:21:15 that's the one 20:21:24 how is that not memorable? 20:21:30 Zappa, people! 20:21:31 NOT one of Edi's better names 20:21:51 a-s [n=user@92.80.98.132] has joined #lisp 20:21:56 do they need to perchase ACL for rdnzl? 20:22:15 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 20:22:17 erm to use it 20:22:39 dmiles_afk: I had seen screenshots of RDNZL used with ECL, but I haven't played with it myself 20:22:53 Corman also supposedly includes RDNZL in it's releases 20:23:10 oh right its built on top of ffi 20:23:11 dmiles_afk: or Lispworks, maybe 20:24:00 well definatly by the end of this weekend V-ille, i'll have that patch done 20:24:20 dmiles_afk: In that case, post it to abcl mailing list, we'll have a look. 20:24:59 There was also I think a more "universal" bridge that could be adapted to various VMs (implementation included bridge to JDK) - it communicated over a socket with a small library running in the VM 20:25:10 hefner: well, c++0x brings forth lambdas for c++. That's something that lisp people might like. 20:25:10 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5c11b3f30f56daad] has joined #lisp 20:26:24 V-ille: Which, of course, will further the goal of C++ being impossible to master (because there *has* to be a way to implement it weirdly) 20:26:38 -!- vcgomes[away] [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 20:27:01 p_l: I don't have a comment on that, I'm just an expert member of the standard working group. :) 20:27:06 so far i am having a hard time when i pack the the (compile-system) output .abcl into .dll as a ikvmres:// ... somehow the Load mechaism is thinking they are .lisp files.. but works fine when in a pysical dirrectory 20:27:36 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:24 V-ille: it isn't clear to me how real lambdas are supposed to work without garbage collection or worse 20:28:27 V-ille: I gave up on C++ when someone redefined logic operators, deep inside GCC's C++ runtime, in a way that broke if 20:28:36 What does :OPERATOR mean in: Warning: INIT-GAME, :OPERATOR was defined in /.../ and is now being defined in /.../ ? 20:29:00 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:29:10 hefner: They are restricted, so you either copy values or then make sure that references aren't stale. 20:29:29 v3rt: what's in the /.../? 20:30:08 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:17 filepaths 20:30:41 Garbage collection, then again, is less-necessary if you have shared-handles, or shared pointers. 20:30:52 INIT-GAME, :OPERATOR was defined in ../game.cl and is now being defined in ../engine.cl 20:31:23 v3rt: Seems to be a warning that is signalled from the software package that you're trying to load, I guess. 20:31:31 BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.161.84.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 20:31:39 what's the url of that music generator video? 20:31:57 dmiles_afk: Can you do the ikvm-patch for abcl outside work? We need it to be so that your company has no rights claims over it. 20:32:05 Otherwise we can't merge it. 20:32:23 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:32:33 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 20:33:07 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 20:35:48 V-ille, right on, yes 20:36:01 ok doing it off -r11399 20:36:25 dmiles_afk: Also, please split it over several patches, if at all possible. 20:36:48 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a60-050.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:37:23 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:24 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-84.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:38:44 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:38:45 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-3-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 20:39:15 Mannerisky [n=manneris@24-117-137-23.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:15 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 20:42:49 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-27-126.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:43:43 V-ille, the org.armedbear.j.jdb is not going to work out very well 20:44:12 dmiles_afk: You can ignore everything J-related. 20:44:58 does abcl work fine w/o j? 20:45:03 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-4-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:27 -!- vtz [n=user@router2-border.mreja.net] has left #lisp 20:46:00 i nomally just remove the jdb jvm debugger part 20:49:10 dmiles_afk: Yes, abcl works fine without J. 20:49:42 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:58 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:31 crod [n=cmell@d288be-026.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:53:21 jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:53:29 Hello all 20:53:42 A couple of things I was wondering about today.... 20:53:52 First, why does this not work when typed into the repl: 20:54:16 (let ((#:foo 1)) (1+ #:foo)) 20:54:36 ? It says variable unbound for the 1+, so how does it work for macros? 20:54:45 jbjohns: Maybe you need let* 20:55:02 V-ille: hunh? 20:55:05 jbjohns: #:foo is an uninterned symbol, which means those two symbols #:foo are actually different symbols. 20:55:18 jbjohns: try foo instead of #:foo 20:55:26 Ah. Right. Bad me. 20:55:47 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:55:57 luis: I know about the uninterned symbol, what I don't understand is how macros work? 20:56:25 the code they produce has #:G567 type variables, how are those the same but if I do it in the repl it isn't? 20:56:43 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:56:47 jbjohns: because they aren't being READ. 20:56:50 (that is, the code they produce when you use gensyms, etc) 20:56:52 jbjohns: the macro expansion is printing the same symbol every time. 20:56:54 jbjohns: if you insist in using uninterned symbols you could write (let ((#1=#:foo 1)) (1+ #1#)) :D 20:56:59 ah ok 20:57:25 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:28 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:57:55 fenlix: I don't insist, I was just curious after reading in the gigamonkeys book that every occurrence would be a different variable, then saw that it was in fact true. But thanks luis, that makes sense 20:58:36 drewc: you're the ucw dev right? :) 20:58:48 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:59:20 jbjohns: that's one of my many roles, yeah :) 20:59:49 drewc, thanks, you made my job in the summer quite hard 20:59:51 :p 21:00:00 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:00:03 :) I was thinking about web frameworks today and something occurred to me that may be silly, but I thought I might bring it up anyway. :) 21:01:00 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:01:04 jpcooper: I have only recently taken over.. not my fault! :) 21:01:11 kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-72-68-52-66.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:26 drewc, oh right, I'll cancel the hitman then 21:01:54 cancel... or redirect? ;) 21:01:59 The interesting thing about Seaside for many is the use of continuations to abstract away the Get/Request nature of HTTP. But the fact is, Seaside only uses continuations in a couple of cases. In Seaside a given page is made up of 1 or more components (you can clearly see this if you turn halos on because each component will get a square box around it) 21:02:09 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:02:28 jbjohns: fwiw that's been done before (continuation based web) 21:02:35 jbjohns: ucw does this the same way 21:02:48 salex: yea I know. Was Scheme first? 21:03:00 ucw was initially very much a seaside-in-cl 21:03:01 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:04 first one i saw trying taht was a scheme project, but i forget which one 21:03:12 What continuations do is let you swap out a given component for something. So e.g., if you do something in one of the components that needs authorization it can do: self call: AuthorizationComponent new 21:03:33 as drewc notes, though, it's done elsewhere also 21:03:38 And the AuthorizationComponent will run in its place until the auth component does a self answer 21:04:07 jbjohns: in ucw : (when (call 'auth-component) (do-thiing)) 21:04:18 What occured to me was: Instead of using continuations for this, given CL's stance on continuations [1], could restarts be used instead? 21:04:29 drewc: how well does it scale, btw? 21:04:44 just ooc 21:05:16 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 21:05:19 jbjohns, aren't restarts limited in terms of the stack? 21:05:21 [1] In Scheme on can use continuations to build all kinds of neat abstractions, but CL seems to prefer to provide what those abstractions would be (excepctions, conditions, restarts, etc.) instead of continuations themselves 21:05:24 salex: for my purposes it has not been an issue. 21:05:42 jbjohns: why not just use delimited continuations in CL? 21:05:47 tic: I suppose, but continations will have resource limitations as well 21:06:13 elderK [n=elderK@202.20.97.243] has joined #lisp 21:06:16 Hey Lisp folk :) 21:06:17 drewc: because CL doesn't have them unless someone (e.g. you :) wrote them. :) 21:06:24 Hey BSD folk :) 21:06:29 jbjohns, not of the same kind, however. 21:06:30 drewc: right, that'll be true for mose 21:06:32 *most 21:06:34 jbjohns: and? CL doesn't have sockets, so the whole point is moot. 21:06:48 I think someone managed to show a case where CL restarts allowed you to do things you couldn't fit into Scheme continuations 21:06:54 jbjohns, well, that's the beauty of Lisp -- it's programmable & extensible. One might even think it's designed to be /practical/! 21:07:07 No disagreement 21:07:11 salex: but it is not resource-friendly at all.. not by design. 21:07:26 tic: Nah, designed? A language that happened by accident? ;-) 21:07:47 jbjohns: afaik, it's more that you can't make call/cc and cl play nice together 21:07:50 p_l, see e.g. Python 21:07:50 salex: however, it can be made to scale it just requires a little help. 21:07:52 so there are other approaches 21:07:54 but my thinking on this was: With restarts (as I understand them) you don't actually have this state save, restart machinery because the bound handler actually runs at the call site of the restart 21:08:03 drewc: ah. 21:08:17 p_l, many languages are grown organically in a way that makes things fit badly with each other. 21:08:19 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:28 salex: multiple machines + sticky sessions works for me. 21:08:39 tic: AFAIK python was conceived as language, not created as a theoretical tool that one of the students decided to implement :) 21:08:44 salex: My understanding was simply that call/cc is hard to get right efficiently and forces a direction for those who implement it, so CL decided to skip it and just provide the things you would usually do with continuations anyway 21:08:51 -!- drewr is now known as drewr-away 21:09:01 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4099.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:09:06 jbjohns: you'd need 1 thread for every user.. if you're going to do that you don't even need control flow abstractions really. 21:09:17 p_l, LISP of '58 is very much unlike Common Lisp. Superficially, they're similar, but then C and Java are the same language. 21:09:55 drewc: ok, well, that's why I brought it up here before exploring it on my own. :) 21:10:13 How do you handle it with continuations? Do you save the cc off somewhere until it's called again? 21:10:19 Hey tic! 21:10:21 jbjohns: i have no issues using call/cc where needed, and CALL does in fact use the condition system to signal that it's time to capture the continuation and render the new component. 21:10:27 hello, elderK. 21:10:35 i know. Though many things had less changes in Lisp than the difference between Java and C (where the only thing really left the same is syntax) 21:10:40 jbjohns: ya, exactly 21:11:11 ok, that would be a sticking point for my idea; can't make a restart "freeze" afaik 21:11:14 what happens when a thread calls condition-notify on a waitqueue that no other thread is condition-waiting on yet? is the notification dropped, or remembered until a thread calls condition-wait? (using sbcl by the way) 21:11:18 *tic* calls it the night 21:11:44 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:59 jbjohns: i've been contemplating how do do it without call/cc lately myself, because i'd like to do it in clojure. 21:12:26 jbjohns: it comes down to explicit CPS, or trampolining. 21:12:42 jso [n=user@67.130.170.131] has joined #lisp 21:12:54 how close are you to the Seaside implementation? The latest versions have gotten rid of most uses of continuations for efficiency 21:13:13 which do you do? CPS would be really really hard, no? 21:13:35 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:13:48 I mean, I guess you could delimit how much of the source you were going to transform, but if you got sucked into doing the whole app..... 21:13:51 jbjohns: i suspect we've taken a different tack in UCW, but continuations are not required at all, it's just a neat thing when it's useful. 21:14:22 I think that's the same with them. Continuations used to be all over, now afaik it's just call/answer 21:14:23 there's a difference between designing the whole thing around cont. and using them when it's handy... 21:14:30 jbjohns: the amount of actual transformed source is minimal. 21:15:05 jbjohns: exactly, it's only call/answer that actually requires call/cc 21:15:12 salex: right, the problem is once you have them you either have to (a) say they only work with your constructs and nothing else or (b) transform everything 21:15:29 jbjohns: not really. 21:15:44 funny I've never seen talk of transforming code for desktop gui applications, for exactly the same purposes 21:15:47 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:49 I am starting to think the whole thing should be designed around them 21:15:54 Because, otherwise you get the situation like I saw on weblocks where things like mapcar weren't supported. Or PG's implementation where you had to use defun= etc. 21:16:00 there's too much explicit state management in Weblocks 21:16:09 jbjohns: so .. those implementations suck 21:16:27 jbjohns: and the reason mapcar isn't supported is there's no special mapcar to call like there is in arnesi 21:16:35 ajhager [n=ajhager@adsl-75-46-79-168.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:38 drewc: how do you do it then? Any call anywhere could be frozen 21:17:07 jbjohns: no .. you only need code that will call or answer to be 'frozen'. 21:17:18 jbjohns: can i suggest you look at ucw? 21:17:21 S11001001: that's the point: every operator has to be explicitly recoded 21:17:24 drewc: sure 21:17:40 not even that will help, because there are other auxiliaries 21:17:46 etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:57 so what you're saying is you transform all the code that is inside the call/answer to be CPS style? 21:17:58 jbjohns: ucw-core is out there and being actively developed towards release. If you want to come int #ucw, we'll help you out. 21:18:00 jbjohns: fwiw, istr the problems with getting continuations to work with unwind-protect were a bit more fundamental than "it's hard to do right" 21:18:15 but i've never looked at it carefully so icbw 21:18:32 salex: the best way is to 'not do that'. 21:18:43 well sure 21:18:54 also, continuations and dynamic scope don't pay friendly either. 21:18:57 play 21:19:08 but from a language design pov, you don't want mutually incompatable part if you can avoid it 21:19:26 salex: not sure what I said that you're responding to. :( 21:19:38 hence call/cc + no unwind protect in scheme, vice versa in cl 21:20:07 jbjohns: that it wasn't in CL because it was hard to do efficiently or whatever 21:20:13 salex: Scheme has a unwind protect operator doesn't it? PLT anyway I thought. 21:20:52 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 21:21:12 I dunno, could be. in the same sense you can add continuations to CL `easily enough', but there are caveats 21:21:15 salex: Well I read that somewhere. To do call/cc to the extent that Scheme has it means you just have to do a global CPS transform. The standards comity didn't want to force all the vendors down that path when CL has most of what call/cc would be used for anyway 21:21:20 dynamic-wind is not unwind-protect. 21:21:24 kpreid___ [n=kpreid@pool-71-251-39-201.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:29 right 21:21:47 is it not a simial thing? A Java "finally" type operator? 21:21:52 similar* 21:21:56 someone (kmp?) had a good discussion of this 21:22:09 jbjohns: there are some serious flaws in what you call the scheme method (reified first class full continuations) 21:22:22 might be. I think I saw it on comp.lang.whatever now that you mention it 21:22:35 not the least of which being that two extensions using call/cc will not play happy. 21:22:36 drewc: oh? 21:22:49 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:08 ok. Well I'm no schemer. I've played with it, but CL has always drawn me more for whatever reason (probably CLOS and conditions) 21:23:19 serious issues both in the theoretical sense, and from the POV of a simple application developer such as myself. 21:24:03 Well, they seem cool from a trivial example point of view, but what bothered me was, really cool things CL has seem to be missing because "well, you have call/cc, just implement it!" 21:24:25 I mean, maybe that's not how the scheme community views it, but it certainly has that feel about it somehow 21:24:45 you can't really beat up a small-by-design language too much for being small 21:25:07 not at all, but I didn't even see libraries for some of the things 21:25:14 no, but you can legitimately not like using it very much fr that reason :) 21:25:19 haha 21:25:35 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:46 it DOES have better implementation names, though 21:26:01 it's not every language has an implementation named after a murderous dictator! 21:26:04 you mean functions? or are you talking Lisp-1 vs. Lisp-2? 21:26:14 oh that... *bonk self* 21:27:04 rsynnott: right, but that's a different thing 21:27:31 erm, that to "you can not like using it..." 21:27:39 salex: I wasn't saying Scheme is crap because it's small. Just giving the reason I never got very far with it 21:27:40 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:27:53 aside: i don't suppose anyon has NURB fitting code lying around? 21:28:41 e.g. I could start implementing the full CL condition system (I didn't see one on PLT), or just use CL and *use* the condition system 21:30:15 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-72-68-52-66.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:30:20 -!- kpreid___ is now known as kpreid 21:30:42 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:31:17 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:31:29 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:31:44 and/or implement the whole of clos, complete with mop :P 21:31:54 they did have a mop thing 21:31:57 -!- Mannerisky [n=manneris@24-117-137-23.cpe.cableone.net] has left #lisp 21:32:05 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:08 it wasn't complete clos, but a better start then I saw for conditions 21:32:12 jbjohns: If you didn't see conditions in PLT, then you didn't look hard enough. 21:32:29 eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:42 -!- phao [n=phao@20158132013.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:32:44 Oh? Something where I get the same behaviour that if my code signals a condition in the repl I get a pick list of which restart to use, etc? 21:33:18 Good evening. 21:33:21 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.161.84.bredband.tre.se] has left #lisp 21:33:27 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:33:38 What's the name? I did look around, that was something I really expected to be there 21:34:06 Do I want to get involved in this discussion? 21:34:15 -!- elderK [n=elderK@202.20.97.243] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:34:16 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:34:17 qbg [n=qbg@170-215-40-227.dsl1.mond.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:22 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:34:36 jbjohns: You should be able to use SRFI-34/35 conditions, or the R6RS equivalents 21:34:48 rebra [n=rebra@cm-84.208.71.34.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 21:35:13 -!- rebra [n=rebra@cm-84.208.71.34.getinternet.no] has quit [Client Quit] 21:35:16 hi beach 21:35:27 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:35:41 Hey salex 21:35:58 how're things with you? 21:35:58 salex: What's up? 21:36:11 Me? Oh, as usual. 21:36:52 Hrm, I'm looking but PlanetT doesn't list things as SRFI. What is the PLT page that shows the SRFI's? 21:37:02 Me: not much, haven't been around lately. Getting absolutely hammered at work by combination of job applications, NSF grant deadlines, other deadlines 21:37:08 hasn't been a fun month 21:37:09 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:37:18 salex: I do have an almost-working per-sheet frame-buffer backend for McCLIM 21:37:28 oh, nice! 21:38:22 salex: NSF, isn't that the Alan Kay "OS in 20k LOC" thing? 21:38:26 salex: sorry to hear about your difficult month. I hope things will improve. 21:38:43 Is it possible to "catch" strings printed by a function? For example: I've got a function which prints out the response from a socket, and I'd like to be able to just create another function that I can call when I want to use the data instead of just printing it out. 21:39:28 jbjohns: no, the National Science Foundation, i.e. source of much of our funding. 'tis the season for writing proposals and reports 21:39:31 TDT [n=TDT@95.sub-75-220-99.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:43 ah, good stuff. US? 21:39:51 Zoba: Perhaps I am just dense, but that made no sense whatsoever. 21:39:59 beach: me too. heck, with a bit of luck i might even get to hack some lisp this year. sigh. 21:40:04 jbjohns: at the moment, yes. 21:40:25 nice. The paper work must be taller then most first graders 21:40:38 beach: targeting embedded devices? 21:40:45 Zoba: with-output-to-string 21:40:53 if that IS what you're talking about 21:41:05 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:41:11 beach, Sorry, it wasn't very clear. I have a function X that prints something. I want a function Y to call function X and basically force X to "print to Y" instead of normal printing 21:41:34 rsynnott, I'll check that out thanks. 21:41:38 -!- curtosis [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.235.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 21:41:44 well, framebuffer backend for CLIM would also make it easier to port it to new systems, too 21:42:00 Zoba: rebind the stream(s) it is printing to? 21:42:02 (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (x)) will return what x printed as a string 21:42:14 though I'm not sure that's what you mean anymore 21:42:17 Jasko: herep? 21:42:31 (or something in flexi-strems, if you're handling binary stuff) 21:42:36 p_l: So I have heard. 21:42:41 rsynnott: right. but beach maybe closer to the mark. it's not clear what Zoba is actually doing 21:42:52 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 21:42:56 yep, from the second message I think beach is correct 21:43:42 oh, one other question before I go. :) If I want some package to be available to my code, I guess the best way is to asdf load it, right? How does SBCL "load" the packages it has at start up (e.g. cl)? 21:43:59 part of the core, I suppose 21:44:08 hey all. I've been having a bit of an issue with some stuff I've been going through in PCL. I created an array through make-array (which I think is just a vector?) then I vector-push a few things to it, and then concatinate onto it, then try a vector-pop and I start to get some odd things coming up. Here's my code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/71088 21:44:41 Hah, thanks guys. I'll let you know if I figure it out. 21:44:49 rsynnott: so there's no special "to be loaded everytime" I can hook onto? 21:44:53 The error happens right after the concatinate, right at the time for vector-pop 21:45:07 jbjohns: you can dump a memory core and load that when sbcl starts. Check man sbcl for that. 21:45:22 jbjohns: your .sbclrc file, if it's stuff you want done on startup 21:45:31 or yep, make your own core 21:45:34 madnificent: yea, I know about that (save-and-die) or whatever 21:45:43 so that's what they probably do then. Ok, fair enough 21:45:55 (I tend to only make cores for deployment, to avoid messing up with too much nonsense in it) 21:46:01 -!- v3rt [n=mor_och_@c83-252-174-7.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 21:46:22 jso` [n=user@67.130.170.131] has joined #lisp 21:46:22 jbjohns: but for your own modifications, .sbclrc is great! (as rsynnott said) 21:46:36 -!- jso [n=user@67.130.170.131] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:46:53 well, I don't care about having an exe. It just seemed strange to have to use asdf to load something when sbcl has modules loaded already, but I guess it's the image 21:47:22 right 21:47:31 madnificent: yea, that's a good point. I could load my own personally utilities and stuff 21:47:33 so you either make an image with yoru stuff in it, or load 21:47:52 nice thing about that is it tracks your updates 21:48:27 is the consensus that you make a special mypackage-asdf package for your asdf system setup like it says in the gigamonkeys book, or not as Xach said on some blog somewhere? :) 21:48:45 or just have an asd for the thing that you're working on with the dependencies in it, and do (require :my-great-app) whenever you starty up 21:48:47 -!- jso` [n=user@67.130.170.131] has quit [Client Quit] 21:48:56 snort. consensus he says. must be new. 21:49:07 :) 21:49:08 jbjohns: it doesn't SEEM to be necessary 21:49:19 and many (most?) asds don't have it 21:49:32 phao [n=phao@20158132013.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 21:49:37 I didn't understand why PCL did it that way, I don't recall him explaining why 21:51:06 TDT: could you please explain why this error surprises you? 21:51:27 ok, going to bed. Have a good day/night/whatever all 21:51:34 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:51:44 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:51:55 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@pool-71-251-38-191.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:05 beach: Well, in short because I'm still new to the language and am probably getting a little confused on the way lists/arrays/vectors/etc are taken care of. 21:52:46 beach: If my error message is super easy, I'm thankful but would definitely appreciate a push in the right direction :) 21:53:45 TDT: I haven't looked into the details of the standard, but you modify the value of x to be the result of a call to concatenate. 21:54:54 TDT: Then you try to apply vector-pop to that value. Are you sure that is possible? 21:55:09 If anyone has a minute could you maybe tell me how I could improve this code: http://kzar.co.uk/blog/?p=17 . There's a few things I don't like but I can't figure out how to write it in a better way 21:55:28 beach: does it run the logic cube? :) 21:55:55 hefner: "it"? 21:56:15 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:56:22 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 21:56:22 salex: lol @ "consensus he says" :) 21:56:32 beach: I'm not 100% sure...I mean, the return value from concatenate should be a vector, I believe..at least, I can call setf and all that...but, I'll try something quick, not sure 21:56:51 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:58:00 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:01 TDT: In your place, I would check the documentation to be 100% sure. 21:59:18 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-74-85-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:59:24 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:59:24 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:00:10 beach: You provided the key, makes sense now...I guess what this is coming down to is that I'm having a bit of a problem knowing when to use setf, or what returns when. I removed the assignment, and at least now it makes a bit more sense. 22:00:18 Thanks for the help beach, I appreciate it. 22:00:22 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:39 -!- dabd [n=dabd@213.22.161.232] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00:54 TDT: Anytime! It's my job. 22:01:12 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:05 minion: chant to TDT 22:02:05 TDT: MORE SENSE 22:02:14 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:03:24 *TDT* ponders minion 22:03:25 beach: "it" the framebuffer backend. 22:03:33 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:47 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:03:58 hefner: I have no idea. 22:04:10 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:51 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:19 -!- xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.11/0000000000]"] 22:05:22 Anyway, this is way past my bedtime. 22:05:29 Good night 22:06:19 good night beach 22:07:22 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-71-251-39-201.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:23 -!- qbg [n=qbg@170-215-40-227.dsl1.mond.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08:23 ahaas: Yeah. Luis helped me with it. 22:09:04 -!- TDT [n=TDT@95.sub-75-220-99.myvzw.com] has quit ["leaving"] 22:14:20 -!- etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:03 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:10 jackdaw [n=chris@cpe-098-122-166-119.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:10 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:40 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:25:23 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 22:30:32 -!- setf [i=54a64cd1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ce9e830ba4ad4943] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:30:58 -!- drewr-away [n=drew@adsl-065-013-142-013.sip.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:31:14 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5c11b3f30f56daad] has quit 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