00:00:49 have you figured out a way to map as3 classes to CLOSy lisp yet? 00:01:14 <_3b> not really 00:01:17 how would as3 code look if translated to lisp? that's what i wanna know 00:02:22 fusss pasted "AS3 code in lisp; is this fugly?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70939 00:02:37 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:38 as3 classes are extended with inheritance, both for slots and methods (which are the same in as3) 00:04:00 in lisp; class slots are extended with inheritance, and methods with more specialized methods 00:04:00 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:21 <_3b> hmm, with-graphics sounds useful, wonder how hard that would be to add 00:04:22 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:04:33 <_3b> guess i'd probably want specials first 00:04:43 _3b: Xach did it for vecto/skippy 00:04:58 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-142-220.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:09 <_3b> let me see if i can port that... 00:06:00 crod [n=cmell@cb8a6f-160.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:06:22 the great majority of as3 methods are not overriden, they're just one-off functions, so lisp methods on AVM2 should be as cheap as regular functions. 00:06:23 <_3b> what is the circle slot for? isn't the sprite inherited already? 00:07:26 that's just a messy sketch, and wrong 00:08:08 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a6f-160.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:08:21 <_3b> i think i actually could do it though 00:09:01 also, as3 code heavily uses constructors with side-effects. as far as i know, we're not allowed to specialize make-instance/initialize-instance, so we might need a more flexible constructor mechanism, like a create-* constructor autogenerated ala defstruct. 00:10:04 <_3b> yeah, CLOS is a long way away, need to be able to write stuff as3-style, and have it compile and run first :) 00:11:04 my project is just a basic avm2 opcode *interpreter*; i badly need a repl to type assembler into, inspect the stack, snoop around first. 00:12:05 <_3b> not sure that will be as useful as it sounds, since it will probably miss most of the annoying bits of the VM validation stuff 00:13:39 i was hopping to target the crappy asm repl, then when i feel confident it work, start using a third-party flash assembler to generate abc bytecode, then put that into an empty swf with swfmill and start hacking 00:13:56 i'm more on the learning stage atm :-) 00:14:46 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:18:40 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:33 azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 00:19:49 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:10 dash___ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-026-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:13 benchambers [n=benchamb@static-68-236-124-253.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:13 is there any way to use asdf-install when cliki.net is down without looking up absolute paths for every package? 00:23:58 <_3b> fusss: hmm, looks like my constructors don't work very well, so can't do that example yet :) 00:24:41 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:25:42 benchambers: no, because cliki.net is the sole source of the short names 00:28:09 kpreid: ugh... thats what I figured... should I expect cliki.net to come back up in the next day or so, or should I start looking for all the package links (i'm trying to install weblocks) 00:29:00 benchambers: it'll come back up when someone pays for the domain; you could try and override the lookup locally. 00:29:17 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:11 pkhuong: as in, just add an entry to /etc/hosts to redirect somewhere? what IP-address/site should I redirect it to? 00:31:52 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 00:32:05 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:33:59 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:34:03 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:34:30 -!- mav [n=mav@pool-68-162-129-29.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:34:54 -topic 00:35:11 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-001-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:35 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:58 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17C35E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:37:08 cmcq [i=queball@freenet6.org] has joined #lisp 00:38:12 aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 00:38:18 i am using a lisp binary that isnt documented, "Error in sdbc.sqlc_receive SQL Mailman for #" 00:39:08 <_3b> fusss (and ayone else interested in my avm2 stuff): http://www.3bb.cc/tmp/git/swf2.git is my current code 00:39:32 postgresql listens at port 5432 not 9999 is sdbc supposed to listen at 9999? 00:40:21 meaning is there probly some type of daemon that the lisp understands how to talk to that redie3cts to progresql? 00:41:20 _3b: neat :-) so far i have a cl translation of most of the spec 00:41:36 i am asking here becasue i am assuming that probly other lisps have used SDBC in this way 00:42:09 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has left #lisp 00:42:33 _3b: i can't seem to browse that git thing. have a tarball somewhere? sorry :-P 00:42:53 <_3b> don't have git available? 00:43:08 not on my tiny XP laptop. removed the thing. 00:43:49 i already have cvs, svn, darcs, and mercurial. too many VS software just to be able to download stuff 00:44:02 <_3b> ok, lemme make a tarball, just a sec 00:44:24 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:06 fusss: inflicting extra work on _3b just to spare a few MB? Shame on you! 00:46:21 luis: i should invite you to my public-flogging events :-P 00:46:27 haru01 [n=ienaga@p3245-ipbf4508marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:46:29 <_3b> ok, tarball is up 1 dir from the .git 00:46:33 cheers! 00:46:40 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:07 <_3b> and if you got an error, try again 00:47:25 <_3b> +r works better than +x to make files readable 00:47:56 no, i have it. amazing work mate! 00:48:11 what subset of CL? what sort of lisp? 00:48:33 <_3b> very small subset so far :p 00:49:12 <_3b> intent is to work towards CL until it starts getting too annoying, or until I start using it enough to decide i want something else 00:50:09 do you have a formally defined IR? or is all straight code-transformation 00:50:26 <_3b> code transformation so far, will need IR soon though 00:50:41 methinks 00:50:46 <_3b> currently it is a horrible mess, needs cleaned up a lot :) 00:51:14 <_3b> but still not sure i understand how it needs to work well enough to clean it up 00:51:23 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:39 methinks i'm gonna scrape mine off and start studying yours 00:54:03 man, you're swf2 compiler would make for a perfect match for gordon 00:54:17 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 00:54:18 fully Lisp asset+code generation for flash 00:54:27 -!- flavioc [n=flaviocr@217.129.160.175] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:55:59 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 00:56:30 <_3b> next major feature i want to work on is SETF, not sure how much cleanup that will need though 00:57:03 my thoughts are avm2 getter/setter traits where a perfect match for setf 00:57:10 <_3b> guess i should probably fix constructors first 00:57:44 did you want a user-definable setf function that uses other assignment primitives 00:58:15 or just have ONE setf that does its own internal type-dispatch, since avm2 primitive types are so few? 00:58:46 how are you doing cons cells again? :-D 00:59:08 <_3b> something like CL:SETF, so it can deal with setting all the CL: functions SETF works on 00:59:23 <_3b> cons = class with car/cdr members 01:00:02 duh, yeah, straight forward. i wanted a massive heap to do cdr-encoding tricks. gratuitous hacking. 01:00:15 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 01:00:26 <_3b> setf will probably handle class members automatically though, so it won't match CL there 01:01:04 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:10 <_3b> maybe make it closer once CLOS is added 01:01:30 why not (setf (slot-accessor-foo instance) value) to update the slot 'foo' in instance? 01:02:08 prowack [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:02:23 <_3b> yeah, it will probably look like that, but currently it recognizes all member names it knows about as accessors 01:02:25 there are many thing CL got right that are hard to better. setf is one of them. 01:02:34 woah! 01:02:41 automatic :accessor generation? 01:02:53 <_3b> nah, just a special case in the function lookup code :p 01:03:15 you were supposed say "yes", so i can do another keanu "woah" 01:04:10 brb 01:04:23 _3b: let me read up on this, we will talk later. cheers! 01:04:25 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 01:04:55 _3b, do you have cgit setup? 01:05:19 <_3b> nope 01:05:29 <_3b> is that better than gitweb? 01:05:34 I think so. 01:06:23 (if you have access to swf2.git through gitweb, that's fine too) 01:06:41 <_3b> nah, no nice interface yet 01:06:47 aight. 01:14:45 r2q2` [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:04 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:15:47 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:18:45 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-57-125.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:18:49 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:19:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:19:50 -!- prowack- [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:25:56 -!- froog___________ is now known as froog 01:26:18 -!- aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:27:19 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:31:59 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:37:06 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-34.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:38:30 minion: memo for slyrus: I was going to ask you something about cl-typesetting but I've since figured it out. 01:38:30 Remembered. I'll tell slyrus when he/she/it next speaks. 01:38:35 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:39:45 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 01:40:26 ths_ [n=ths@X45e9.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:32 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:51:01 So who actually should be renewing the cliki.net registration? 01:51:57 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:52:17 -!- benchambers [n=benchamb@static-68-236-124-253.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:56:34 -!- ths [n=ths@X50e0.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:05 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.137.244] has joined #lisp 01:59:04 gigamonkey: We're not sure? 02:04:56 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:11:14 Simian_POTUS [n=Administ@201.170.175.35] has joined #lisp 02:11:26 Tired of black people? Join us at http://www.chimpout.com and learn more about these feral simian beasts! This is not a skinhead or white supremacist organization. Asians, Jews, Mexicans, and any non-congoloid ethnic group is welcome to unite. HUMANS vs NIGGGERS http://www.chimpout.com 02:12:10 MacGruber [i=Grewbste@cpe-76-178-250-189.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:12:12 Tired of living with your parents? I know MierdaNeg sure is! Too bad he doesnt have a job or any sort of social relationships due to his many disorders that were caused by his mother drinking during pregnancy. 02:13:06 *stassats* is tired of spammers 02:13:11 hlieberman [n=hlieberm@pool-71-184-255-196.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:19 antifuchs, ping 02:13:34 Tired of black people? Join us at http://www.chimpout.com and learn more about these feral simian beasts! This is not a skinhead or white supremacist organization. Asians, Jews, Mexicans, and any non-congoloid ethnic group is welcome to unite. HUMANS vs NIGGGERS http://www.chimpout.com 02:13:40 -!- hlieberman [n=hlieberm@pool-71-184-255-196.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 02:15:23 -!- Simian_POTUS [n=Administ@201.170.175.35] has quit [K-lined] 02:18:10 -!- cpape` [n=user@p5484F860.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:20:16 -!- phf [n=phf@c-69-140-35-170.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:20:28 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 02:20:47 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 02:28:24 simonb_ [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has joined #lisp 02:28:24 -!- simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:28:31 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:50 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a54-176.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:29:55 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a6f-160.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:43 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:52 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:59 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 02:42:03 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a54-176.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:45:35 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.137.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:47:21 -!- Mynch [i=Mynch@ns150a.studby.ntnu.no] has quit [] 02:52:47 -!- haru01 [n=ienaga@p3245-ipbf4508marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [] 02:54:00 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:54:17 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:32 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8abf-030.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:56:02 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 02:57:30 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:57:59 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:59:09 minion: memo for Xach: I need a subtitle for Coders at Work as in _Founders at Work: Stories of Startups' Early Days_ Help me out and you can be on the cover again, anonymously this time. 02:59:10 Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks. 03:01:21 gigamonkey: do you think this is the best way of communicating with Xach? he wasn't here for a several days 03:01:37 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.2] has joined #lisp 03:02:24 stassats: Yeah. I should probably email him. Though he has responded (via email) to some of my queries here. 03:02:48 -!- r2q2` [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:05:39 *gigamonkey* misses Xach 03:06:14 phao [n=phao@20158133062.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 03:07:00 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 03:07:24 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 03:07:25 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 03:07:39 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:08:57 -!- MacGruber [i=Grewbste@cpe-76-178-250-189.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:11:15 mornin' 03:12:33 Good morning everyone, and hello schme_. 03:12:57 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:13:44 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 03:14:23 morn schme_ and beach 03:15:03 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:15:42 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 03:16:35 *hefner* notices mcclim-truetype breaking things all over the place, wonders if it's just this tree or how he didn't notice this before 03:17:21 what things does it break? 03:18:54 anything that uses double buffering - the logic cube and dragable graph demos, for instance. 03:19:09 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 03:19:23 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:20:34 I play with the logic cube just frequently enough to be surprised that I didn't notice a problem with it 03:21:32 hefner: I suppose the problem could be in the code for double buffering. 03:21:48 -!- syamajal_ [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:22:08 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-50-169.man.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Signing off... possibly until Tuesday."] 03:24:10 sadly, this would take more than five minutes to fix 03:24:58 The world really needs another code-walker/CPS transformer 03:25:10 no. 03:25:12 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:30 binghe [n=chatzill@60.12.227.4] has joined #lisp 03:26:33 hi guys, I'm trying to learn elisp + emacs, but I'm kind of confused right now, when I create an elisp expression in a buffer and press C-x C-e it get's evaluated without a problem, but if I save this buffer and try to load it from .emacs I get errors, is there something obvious I might be doing wrong? 03:26:44 inetic: #emacs 03:27:05 inetic: We'd love to help, but this is #lisp, not #elisp :) 03:27:29 schme_, no problem, will do, thanks 03:27:38 inetic: Though perhaps you are loading stuff depending at something else, before something else is loaded :) 03:27:46 Oh yeah - one that drops to avoid stack growth, and generates lambdas/function that runtime discriminate their behavior based on the caller. Really slow s**t :) 03:28:10 -!- pinkey [n=chris@adsl-065-005-223-219.sip.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:28:30 schme_, makes sense :-) 03:30:29 Starsie [n=Stars@pool-71-178-226-94.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:29 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:30:31 inetic: What you really need with that emacs of yours is SLIME and a goog common lisp implementation ;) 03:30:35 good. 03:30:47 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:30:50 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:04 suffer with us! 03:31:31 What a great slogan. 03:31:40 -!- simonb_ [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:31:54 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:41 hefner: since you estimate that it would take more than 5 minutes, do you seem to understand what the problem is? 03:37:11 -!- seangrove [n=sgrove@adsl-76-238-251-5.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:38:46 Koordin [n=jado@jado.crans.org] has joined #lisp 03:39:27 does a lisp expression only depend on its free variables ? i would say no, but i don't have any example, would you me help me please ? 03:39:34 hi* 03:39:47 hello Koordin 03:39:54 Koordin: I'm not quite sure I understand "free variables". 03:40:09 schme_: I am not quite sure I understand "depend on". 03:40:15 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:40:18 :) 03:40:43 Somehow I read it as unbound variables, and nothing makes sense then. 03:40:49 "depend on" is "if another variable change, the return value will change also" 03:40:49 schme_: (lambda (y) (+ x y)) x in is a free variable 03:40:55 oh ok. 03:40:55 Koordin: by lisp, do you mean Common Lisp or some mythical pure ``lisp''? 03:40:56 Koordin: Since functions can have side effects, a function call can yield a new value each time. 03:40:57 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 03:41:02 beach: yeah, it's another case where windows and pixmaps aren't interchangable, this time calling xlib:find-window-picture-format. the picture format for the pixmap should agree with that of the window, but we don't have it handy. 03:41:18 pkhuong: pure lisp 03:41:29 Oh you mean like a more mathematical thing perhaps. 03:41:33 hefner: Hmm, yes, I see. 03:41:42 schme_: yes 03:42:08 Koordin: Though people here might know the answer, this channel is mainly for Common Lisp. 03:42:08 Koordin: i suggest you go back to whatever definition of pure you are working from to try an answer your question then. 03:42:11 Well I dunno. Do functions in math only depend on their free variables? 03:42:26 Koordin: why do you need to know, by the way? 03:42:52 pkhuong: pure means only some operators are defined : (application, function, let, sequence, setq) 03:43:08 Koordin: this sounds like homework to me. 03:43:19 baech: indeed it is 03:43:23 well if you have setq then obviously you can have side effects 03:43:26 beach: * 03:43:37 beach: at least he admits it :) 03:43:45 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:44:09 ens cachans, where pure means impure ;) 03:44:26 pkhuong: what do you mean ? 03:45:40 (setq x 7) ; (setq f (lambda (y) x)) ; (f 2) --> in (f 2), x is not a free variable, so is that the example i'm seeking ? 03:46:23 Koordin: he means that I should look out before hiring more people from ENS Cachan. 03:46:32 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp91-122-98-72.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 03:46:52 Koordin: pure Lisp doesn't have setq. 03:47:03 mccarthy's original paper described setq, iirc 03:47:46 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.2] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:47:49 beach: i really don't know whether is it pure or not, i just know it is a simplified Lisp with only the operators i told just before 03:47:51 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:47:52 Koordin: fwiw, you still haven't shown that (f 2) depends on x. 03:48:03 Koordin: I reckon a lot of things depend also on what evaluation rules you have. Just going left to right would make things odd ;) 03:48:20 if x = 6 then (f 2) gives 6 else it does not 03:48:20 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:48:46 schme_: you evaluate with the most natural way 03:48:54 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:57 Ok. I'm not going there. 03:49:08 Koordin: you should tell your professor that such artificial exercises are not very interesting, and also tell him/her that in order to get help on #lisp, his/her students should be allowed full Common Lisp. 03:49:53 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has joined #lisp 03:50:20 actually he is a good professor, and he is just teaching us "a little semantics" ; and he never told me to come to #lisp 03:50:43 Koordin: Welcome here anyway :) 03:50:53 ; ) 03:51:20 Koordin: if you're studying language semantics (as opposed to being taught a strange lisp), I think you'd have to add a lot more details (e.g. reduction traces) than what you have written here. 03:51:46 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 03:51:51 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:51:53 Lessee, Queinnec is no longer there, right? 03:52:07 (Maybe he never was) 03:52:18 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 03:52:18 Goubault? 03:52:19 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:52:20 pkhuong: yes i know, but it's a little too long to rewrite the rules of the semantics, i assume they are the same than the 'real' lisp ones 03:52:48 So a bit varying? 03:53:09 Larrecq ? 03:53:27 bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:55:01 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Client Quit] 03:56:10 Koordin: I'm confused by your example with the (setq x 7) (f 2) . I imagined "pure" lisp only did the lexical scope, so it seems like it would break to me :) 03:57:14 schme_: our lisp is with 'dynamic links' 03:57:26 Ok. 03:57:28 What is that? 03:57:45 schme_: dynamic scoping, I think. 03:57:51 Oh ok. 03:58:01 yes, sorry 03:58:10 Out of interest: is there a clean portable way to query if a symbol is marked as special? 03:58:25 Or variable 03:58:55 Modius: cltl2 extensions. 03:59:19 I think Kent Pitman posted some code the c.l.l one time that kind of did that in ANSI Common Lisp 03:59:52 It detected the different scoping IIRC 04:00:00 I guess you could play tricks with eval, but that isn't very type declaration-friendly. 04:00:28 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:00:48 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:06 Koordin: Now if I personally would get an assignment to explain if expressions dependend on anything else than free variables, I'd go with a long rant on how evalution order. And show examples: right to left, left to right, random picking, etc. 04:01:21 Koordin: of course the professor would feel I was mocking him, but I probably was ;) 04:01:39 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:01:55 schme_: there are rules for evaluating 04:02:01 oh. 04:02:04 Well bugger. 04:02:49 e.g. rho |- x => rho, rho(x) ;o) 04:04:20 Koordin: I am curious. Are you just shameless and count on not being recognized for asking help here? Or do you have reasons to believe that it is OK to "do" your homework by having someone else do it for you? 04:04:58 beach: you can whois me and have my name. 04:05:16 beach: i'm a student of the person you said, Goubault-Larrecq 04:05:53 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:06:03 beach: and i'm not trying to have my homework done by someone else, i'm just trying to get help on the best place i've thought of. 04:08:33 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:20 anyway, thanks for helping me ; but i have to go 04:11:49 good night 04:11:50 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 04:12:05 -!- Koordin [n=jado@jado.crans.org] has quit ["^_^"] 04:12:08 beach: what's wrong with asking for some hints? 04:12:52 the way newbies get treated here is spectacular 04:13:57 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:00 I found it kinda interesting meself :) 04:14:11 its funny 04:14:30 the same people who act smug to newbies complain on their blogs about how lisp needs more programmers and how sad it is that everyone else is using inferior 'blub' languages 04:14:40 Oh that. 04:14:46 I mostly found the depending on interesting. 04:15:01 Either way it is time for work for this hunk. Have a good one #lisp 04:18:14 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:20:54 schme_, sorry, I returned from #emacs back here just now, you were right, there is cl-macs.el that defines common lisp macros in elisp. I've got SLIME with sbcl installed allready, but as a vim user, I figured that I need to customize some emacs keybindings before I can use it :-) 04:21:28 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 04:24:12 slava: Maybe I am mistaken, but it didn't look like "some hints" to me. Also, if he had started by saying "hello, I have a homework assignment that goes like this... and I need some hints", then I would have reacted differently. 04:24:45 he said itw as homework when you asked him if it was 04:24:55 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:25:02 slava: For the record, I don't have a habit of being smug towards newbies, and I don't have a blog of that kind. 04:25:13 Soulmann [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 04:25:14 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 04:25:30 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:25:30 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:25:41 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 04:25:45 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:53 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:25:59 /me was a newbie here and was treated very well. Of course, he read a book and tried some sample code before arriving. 04:25:59 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:12 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 04:27:24 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-142-220.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:28:06 slava: I don't think it's the same to admit it is homework when being asked and to declare it up front. 04:28:24 slava: But maybe that's just me, or perhaps it has to do with my culture. 04:28:30 the smug lisp weenie culture? 04:28:41 I am not going to answer that. 04:30:04 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:31:25 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:32:59 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:34:55 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:35:18 howdy bastards 04:35:29 hey lukego 04:35:33 what's up? 04:35:35 beach: I did a week and a half's tramping on the south island - bloody nice !! 04:35:46 well 4 days tramping the rest town-exploring :) 04:36:18 lukego: Great! Did you meet with any Lispers there? 04:36:42 I guess there are more of them on the north island. 04:36:56 I had a couple of beers with Chris Double on the way through Auckland en route to Brisbane (where I'm typing from). that was fun! 04:37:15 Yeah, he's an interesting fellow. 04:37:48 -!- phao [n=phao@20158133062.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:37:51 hi lukego 04:38:14 howdy slava - how's hacking? 04:38:34 great 04:38:36 phao [n=phao@20158133062.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 04:38:40 how's the dynamic language hardware? :) 04:39:36 pre-hello-world at this point :) earning my pay by writing a couple of openfirmware-pepsi drivers before playing too much 04:44:08 fpgas are pretty bloody exciting though 04:46:04 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:47:55 TIESJE! 04:48:23 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:31 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:48:59 tiesje? 04:49:34 Lukego! 04:49:51 how r ya 04:50:20 very well. enjoying queensland mangos at my parents' place. how's life Kathmandu way? 04:50:41 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 04:51:19 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:04 tiny bit boring, with dev gone from the house. compensating by playing poker and deploying to buddhist schools 04:52:30 where's dev? is bryan still in town? caroline? I am really overdue to email you :) 04:53:38 why aren't you sending me xoos patches? :-) 04:53:59 dev's back to India due to,... ehh... operational issues say. Caroline is gone to the us to look for a man. Bryan has plans to leave in summer. 04:54:40 kids having fun with the laptops? 04:54:48 It's getting lonely and cold here in Nepal. Good thing i got my cook and cleaner to talk to 04:55:23 you should moonlight with jimi socialising the dutch volunteer girls :) 04:55:53 hacking any lisp? 04:55:56 yea, pretty much. Next spring we're gonna deploy like rabbits. about 4000 to 10 districts or summ. 04:56:40 nice! surendra is studying in thailand right? how about om and ram? 04:57:09 and I've been demoted to the deployment department, basically continuing my mr fixit role 04:58:32 Oh I'm socialising allright ;) glad dev is gone. the socialising got a bit out of hand. first read that 'socializing' in a red kind of way btw 04:58:49 you're still in california? 04:59:15 australia. was 2 months in california -- nice place 04:59:47 still hacking on making the vpri system run nicely on top of the OLPC firmware 04:59:48 still working for vpri? 04:59:53 yeah 05:00:22 vpri is cool. alan kay is a lot more brilliant than I had realised 05:00:40 that's your task? that's pretty cool. Ah, now I can parse xoos. 05:00:56 got a repo somewhere? 05:01:11 http://www.vpri.org/fonc_wiki/index.php/XO_Hacking is what I'm doing, repo on github 05:01:22 Anyone here grok emacs's after-insert-file-functions hook. #emacs is no help. 05:02:03 gigamonkey: hi! how's the book? :) 05:02:12 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4650C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:26 lukego: going well. Kay's not *that* brilliant--he backed out. ;-) 05:02:37 And I have been doing terrible in the personal-hacking department, but that xoos thingy looks pretty cool 05:02:44 gigamonkey: well he's not really a coder :) you got Dan Ingalls? 05:02:55 lukego: yeah, that's sort of what I realized. 05:03:08 I've got Ingalls though I'm having a hard time getting in touch with him to schedule a 2nd interview. 05:03:17 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:03:20 he will probably be the best of the whole book 05:03:30 If you talk to him for any reason, ask him if he's getting my emails. 05:03:34 I met him recently and failed to stop myself from ranting about the virtues of emacs and unix at him. oops :) 05:03:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A072A.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:03:51 benny [n=benny@i577A072A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:03:58 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:04:03 I'm hacking some elisp right now to help with the task of reducing the thousands of pages of transcripts I have to a reasonable sized book. 05:04:33 lukego: cool. I might reflash the XO. 05:04:36 btw it's TOTALLY NUTS who you can meet if you hang around events at the Computer History Museum in mountain view. Steve 'slug' Russel, Danny Bobrow, Carl Hewit, ... lot of them! 05:05:19 But I can't figure out how the heck the after-insert-file-functions mechanism is supposed to work since the functions in it seem to be called before the major mode is set up so you can't make installing your function part of the mode. 05:05:22 pkhuong: Mitch Bradley is helping me out with some patches so be sure to download the XO firmware linked from that page. I depend on bleeding edge firmware for the mouse driver to work right 05:05:59 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:03 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 05:06:13 lukego: is that backward compatible with old kernel images? 05:07:00 it would be very fun of people around here got interested in OS hacking along with me :) I haven't been making much noise since there's so much to do but now we have keyboard, mouse, wifi drivers based on the firmware and a native graphics blit driver on a Smalltalk-flavoured system that should be very lisp-friendly 05:07:09 lukego: you don't actually mean mitch found a way around the jittery touchpad problem? 05:07:56 tiesje: no not that. although I can't help but wonder if that could be worked around -- I've seen spurious reading from the touchpad and wondered if you could just e.g. dicard any events specifying >128 movement in a single sample 05:07:59 but maybe that's not enough 05:08:07 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:08:30 pkhoung: I'm haivng the XO boot via the wireless network or a USB stick and not actually overwriting the operating system that's on its internal flash 05:08:48 pkhoung: the firmwares are all from the main stream and fully compatible 05:09:03 in fact any recent firmware will do except for making the mouse work 05:09:13 perfect. Not that I have that much free time :\ 05:09:59 my dream is to conquer the OLPC XO w/ Forth-based firmware, then a virtual platform like qemu or vmware w/o special firmware, then a totally custom system-on-an-fpga with homebrew (or at least tweakable from opencores) display hardware etc 05:10:02 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:49 evening 05:10:49 slyrus, memo from gigamonkey: I was going to ask you something about cl-typesetting but I've since figured it out. 05:10:59 minion: thanks 05:11:00 no problem 05:11:46 lukego: could be. do know that hardware problem is no more in future xo's so problem is contained to.. what... half a million boxes 05:12:28 tiesje: oh hardly worth patching then, you could just recall those machines and ship $100M worth of replacements :) 05:12:52 :) 05:13:35 Yo slyrus. 05:13:40 tiesje: so what's next for you when thousands of kids have their laptops in the hills? 05:13:43 fusss__ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:53 Revolution! 05:14:02 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-71-249-50-81.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:14:11 -!- fusss__ is now known as fusss 05:14:27 hey gigamonkey 05:14:34 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-71-249-50-81.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:14:42 lukego: what gigamonkey said 05:14:44 -!- fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:15:01 you'll overthrow the democratic maoist government? 05:16:02 those kapitalist swines!.. or.. hmm.. reality is hard... 05:17:52 or, dunno, go for tens of thousands? Basically I'm a pretty lazy so I think I'll hang around till my monetary situation REALLY forces me to return to the bosom of wealth. Don't even have my volunteer visum for this year btw. have been illegal here for about 4 months now. Shhh... 05:17:53 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:18:05 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47190.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:26 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F739.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:46 I hope I manage to come and visit you while you're over there. I would really like to settle down for a while and stop bloody travelling so much, trouble is there are a lot of places where I want to be settled 05:20:40 btw I read something about maoists cracking down on vice (i.e. drunken expats) in Thamel - true? 05:21:53 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F175.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:08 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:23 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:16 Axioplase [n=pierard@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:24:52 yea, it's bloody much time you come over! I am in desperate need of head-to-head computer talk. 05:25:53 Actually it's the UML minister of the Interior fucking over the Maoists. Maoist unions are quite strong in the restaurant/cafe sector and he's using his power for leverage atm 05:26:12 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:26:45 and it's all enforced also. basically fucked over the whole tourist season. people get thrown out of bars at 11 oclock on a regular basis 05:30:03 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-154-233.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:42 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:31:26 you need to make friends with some Marines and get pissed at the US consular pub 05:31:48 Om and Ram are still at olenepal? 05:32:23 never heard of that one. I'll investigate. 05:33:12 lukego: In the US "pissed" does not have 1000 different meanings like in Oz - I assume you meant drunk but here it sounds like "angry" 05:33:44 Modius: ties is dutch I'm sure he interprets every verb as "to consume alcohol" 05:34:50 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:35:25 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-62-240.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:36:28 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.137.244] has joined #lisp 05:38:02 so guys don't you think that since Linux etc went mainstream there's no dodgy hacker-OS full of loose wires to wrestle with and learn about computers on? we should definitely change that 05:38:50 rcy [n=rcy@shop.freegeekvancouver.org] has joined #lisp 05:40:33 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:37 lukego: what kind of OS do you propose? lisp-os? 05:43:00 well Alan Kay's research group are already working on a new system that's obviously very Smalltalk-influenced but supposed to be very extensible to other paradigms/languages. I propose to use that as the center piece and operating-system-ify it 05:43:28 simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has joined #lisp 05:43:31 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:44:16 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:22 -!- rottcodd is now known as Guest65814 05:44:58 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:45:09 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:15 as a taste of what I mean here's a driver I wrote for the AMD Geode's graphics processor (hardware blit) in a Smalltalk-alike that runs on bare metal on the OLPC XO: http://github.com/lukego/xoos/tree/master/xoos%2FGeode.st 05:48:19 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-154-233.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 05:49:43 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.137.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:50:41 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-115-234.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:50:44 -!- beach` is now known as beach 05:51:02 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:52:19 -!- binghe [n=chatzill@60.12.227.4] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [SeaMonkey 2.0a1/20080924175546]"] 05:53:00 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 05:55:37 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 05:56:52 ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:57:25 -!- Guest65814 is now known as rottcodd 05:59:42 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47224.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:43 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 06:01:22 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 06:03:56 Axioplas1 [n=pierard@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 06:04:08 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:06:10 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:06:57 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:05 -!- simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:08:50 ignas [n=Ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 06:09:04 -!- ignas [n=Ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:10:30 keram [n=oof@unaffiliated/keram] has joined #lisp 06:10:31 hello 06:10:49 how can i increase the stack size in clisp? 06:12:28 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8abf-030.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:13:06 holycow [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:20 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:10 -!- Axioplase [n=pierard@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:16:15 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4650C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:17:47 Hello keram. I don't know the answer to your question, but if you run out of stack, that's usually a sign of infinite recursion. 06:19:02 or finite, but large 06:19:15 hi guys, noob question 06:19:18 have a bunch of cds i whose file structure i want to scan and dump that data to a flatfile of some sort 06:19:30 i would like to use this data later to import into a web app 06:19:37 are there any tcl libraries that you guys might recommend to use for this? maybe something for dealing with files and output to xml perhaps? 06:20:03 tcl? 06:20:07 holycow: I don't see what it has to do with Lisp. 06:20:20 they share the letter l 06:20:39 TCL = Total Common Lisp? 06:20:40 Untl681 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 06:20:45 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:20:47 woops 06:20:49 sorry right 06:20:52 hey, another letter for the CLers 06:20:55 wrong channel 06:21:05 and SBCL has the trifecta 06:21:16 (sTeel) 06:22:00 maybe it's a combination of T and CL 06:24:16 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:25:15 cl::t 06:26:28 jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-252.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:30:22 -!- wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:30:26 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-100.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:33:24 simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has joined #lisp 06:38:12 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:38:59 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:39:08 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 06:41:54 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.203.169] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:42:19 -!- rcy [n=rcy@shop.freegeekvancouver.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:47:59 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:48:52 beach, yeah... thats a good indication. i will try to do some additional pruning. thanks 06:49:02 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:51:38 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:52:26 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:31 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:53:46 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [] 06:54:57 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 06:56:47 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:29 seangrove [n=sgrove@adsl-76-238-251-5.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:41 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:00:34 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:04:26 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:04:57 I really must urge you all to move to Queensland for the duration of mango season. 07:05:41 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 07:06:50 still footloose, lukego? 07:07:05 yes. settlement is elusive! 07:07:25 Krystof: methinks there has been a major event in your life since last we spoke :) 07:09:09 -!- Untl681 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:09:44 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:10:24 lukego: some details available on flickr 07:11:38 http://www.flickr.com/photos/8392359@N07/3050737261/ or can you point out some better ones? :) 07:11:42 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 07:17:38 -!- seangrove [n=sgrove@adsl-76-238-251-5.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:20:26 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:18 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:21:39 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit ["Stopping IRC chat... [OK]"] 07:21:56 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:22:05 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:26 good morning 07:22:53 -!- Rigdern [n=Rigdern@pidgeotto-30.dynamic.rpi.edu] has quit [] 07:25:46 Krystof: I was wondering about major events in your life too. (Did you get my pm the other day?) 07:26:33 hello mvilleneuve 07:34:30 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:35:02 -!- simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:45 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-78.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:39 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:39:58 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:40:50 Aildo298 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 07:44:30 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:46 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A072A.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:47:59 uchi [n=user@85.139.117.150] has joined #lisp 07:48:04 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit ["Stopping IRC chat... [OK]"] 07:48:13 simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has joined #lisp 07:49:01 crod [n=cmell@cad439-252.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:51:14 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:51:17 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:51:30 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-252.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:21 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 07:54:07 -!- Aildo298 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:55:32 -!- uchitoru [n=user@85.139.117.150] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:58:56 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178028009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:59:39 nostoi [n=nostoi@161.Red-83-34-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:41 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178028009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:59:43 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:09:24 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-100.kosnet.ru] has quit [Operation timed out] 08:13:35 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:15:20 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:15:40 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:15:46 morning 08:16:09 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 08:16:12 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:49 Essi [n=essi@91.184.80.149] has joined #lisp 08:19:57 Nod731 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 08:20:46 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 08:20:54 _quasi [i=3bb60fe2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-220233957d538f76] has joined #lisp 08:21:32 elderK [n=~k@218-101-117-5.dialup.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 08:21:41 -!- Nod731 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:25:52 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:25:54 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:12 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 08:28:05 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-100.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 08:31:05 idurand [n=idurand@chataigne.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:31:18 -!- skrit [n=skrit@cpe-76-88-49-7.san.res.rr.com] has quit ["bye"] 08:31:34 hello idurand 08:31:45 hello 08:32:15 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 08:35:52 idurand: did you solve your McCLIM problem? 08:36:06 no 08:36:10 :( 08:41:28 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:42:42 -!- pierre__thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:43:27 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:43:29 Hm. Good morning? 08:43:45 tic: Did you oversleep? 08:44:34 beach, you could say that. 08:45:37 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has joined #lisp 08:45:50 Good morning 08:45:56 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:46:02 hello Essi 08:46:24 First-timer here.... 08:46:32 Essi: Yeah, I can tell. 08:46:43 What brings you to #lisp? 08:46:48 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.158] has joined #lisp 08:47:35 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:01 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.158] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:48:19 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:48:28 Just started learning the language. Things look overwhelming to me. Worst yet, have to wrestle with pretty complicated code and am looking for clues 08:48:42 Essi, have you tried Practical Common Lisp? 08:49:27 Yes, am almost halfway through.... 08:49:36 Have also read parts of On Lisp 08:49:59 Essi: it is pretty unusual to have to wrestle with complicated code when you are just starting to learn the language. 08:51:22 It is...That's why I am putting in extra hours trying to grasp as much as I can 08:52:07 my own code used to be too complicated for me a lot. avoiding that is one of the things you get better at with so-called "experience" :) 08:52:18 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.158] has joined #lisp 08:52:40 Correct! 08:53:04 BRB 08:53:07 -!- Essi [n=essi@91.184.80.149] has quit [] 08:53:23 So did the Cliki problem get solved? 08:54:09 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 08:54:56 I guess not! 08:55:44 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 08:55:51 Bummer. Where is danb? 08:56:30 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@161.Red-83-34-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:56:59 tic: haven't seen him around for quite some time now. 08:57:53 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:58:12 idurand pasted "MClim Mac OS X 10.5 problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70947 08:59:37 beach, I was just being silly. treads vs threads. ;) 09:00:01 tic: Ah, I missed that :) 09:00:40 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 09:00:58 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 09:01:38 -!- _quasi [i=3bb60fe2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-220233957d538f76] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 09:01:49 free_tinker [n=willijar@eas-nw709pc01.aston.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:02:49 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-5fdcff7c320ec479] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:03:24 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:03:31 hello lispers 09:06:49 jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-16-213.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:08:02 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-46b13fff2b6bcee7] has joined #lisp 09:10:51 hello kiuma 09:11:42 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:12:13 So is there anyone here with access to McCLIM and Mac OS X 10.5 that can have a look at the problem idurand is having? 09:13:08 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:15:08 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:15:22 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:16:42 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 09:17:48 hefner: around? 09:17:59 by the way, are Macs considered as "good" development platforms? (I will probably buy a laptop soon and MacBooks are an option) 09:19:11 mvilleneuve: if you are not bothered by one mouse key, then a macbook pro is pretty nice. 09:20:09 what happened to cliki.net will it be up again =? 09:20:20 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:20:48 mvilleneuve: From my experience their keyboards look better then they actually work. 09:20:48 kiuma: someone forgot to pay for the domain name. 09:21:13 antoszka: the pro keyboard is ok, i think. 09:21:14 mvilleneuve: And are not the most comfortable for lots of typing, especially in programming/administration and such. 09:21:16 H4ns: actually, most of the time I would leave it closed and connected to external monitor, keyboard and mouse 09:21:33 The Cliki problems makes me want to consider creating a more permanent site at the LaBRI where we don't have to think about paying for the domain name. 09:22:09 beach: i think it is not the problem of the site that runs cliki, but that of the payment. 09:22:21 Yeah, Xach paid last year. 09:22:23 H4ns: Yes, I realize that. 09:22:33 mvilleneuve: Then I suppose it's a matter of taste really (and price). 09:22:41 why asd files can't have their own url exposed for asdf-install ? 09:22:47 beach, would the contetns be that of cliki.net? 09:22:48 would it be a problem ? 09:23:01 kiuma: how would you get to the asd file in the first place? 09:23:02 antoszka: right, I should probably try MacOSX first and see if I like it... 09:23:10 mvilleneuve: Yep. 09:23:24 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:23:25 mvilleneuve: It looks sweet, but i don't find it very practical. 09:23:30 mvilleneuve: I don't know the answer to your question, but I would think that it would have the same problems as other commercial platforms like Windows, in that writers of open-source and free software would be somewhat less interested in it. 09:23:35 mvilleneuve: Too mousy for my likes. 09:24:03 tic: I haven't given it that much thought. But it probably wouldn't be a Wiki, for various reasons. 09:24:11 beach: I agree 09:24:13 H4ns: giving only first level url in the asd file, the carcading dependencies 09:24:30 antoszka: ok 09:24:35 H4ns: it is a dirty trick of course 09:24:44 ah, monday morning, can we have a "common lisp needs a better library distribution system" discussion now? 09:24:47 mvilleneuve: For instance, it took quite a while for SBCL to have threads on the Mac. 09:25:23 H4ns: I'm the last person who can discuss about it :) 09:26:15 beach: IIRC, that's in part also because OSX is/was weird and buggy in that area 09:26:19 beach, something more like common-lisp.net ? 09:26:22 *H4ns* thinks that cliki.net should be paid for 10 years in advance, and would consider contributing to that, too. 09:26:43 Of course, one does not have to run Mac OS X on a mac. 09:26:49 Anyway is cliki under an organization ? ppl like me could contribute via paypal 09:26:49 beach, I mean cl-user.net 09:26:50 tic: No, not at all. Just making latest distributions and snapshots available. 09:26:52 There's a number of free unices that will work woll. 09:27:01 H4ns: just like for dojo 09:27:39 beach, ie. the project you've aired before. I see. 09:27:47 tic: yes. 09:28:01 H4ns: I don't think it's a question of money, but of willingness to take on the responsibility for it. 09:28:19 beach: i'd gladly take the domain and pay for it, no problem. 09:28:44 beach: i am not using cliki much and i'm also not using asdf-install, but i think that it should be running as long as there is no real alternative. 09:29:20 H4ns: OK, so what is preventing you from taking it on? 09:29:49 *H4ns* tries 09:30:03 beach: i did not have that thought until now :) 09:30:08 H4ns: maybe it creates more incentive to work on an alternative 09:30:16 H4ns: Ah, OK. Let me know if you need money. 09:30:28 ths_ [n=ths@p549AF6B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:42 the only thing I'd hate to see is having the domain fall into squatter hands 09:30:43 -!- ths [n=ths@X45e9.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:06 me too 09:31:09 my registrar says that the domain is not available. 09:31:24 just like for claw.org 09:31:26 i guess i'd need an authcode. 09:32:47 email to Daniel then 09:34:05 mega1 [n=mega@53d834d6.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:34:36 done. 09:35:00 ....mmmmm metacircles.com : domain for sale 09:35:03 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad439-252.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:35:45 crod [n=cmell@cb8a61-110.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:35:48 I think it doesn't arrive :( 09:36:12 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA65B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:36:26 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB8051.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:36:28 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 09:36:36 *grmbl* 09:36:39 -!- NoorDextor is now known as HelicopterBen 09:37:37 -!- elderK [n=~k@218-101-117-5.dialup.clear.net.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:38:05 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:38:30 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 09:39:19 OK, who is `BTS'? 09:39:34 Brian Spilsbury 09:39:42 Ah, right. 09:39:48 or possibly "Bug Tracking System" 09:40:03 I prefer your first suggestion. 09:40:20 minion: what does BTS stand for? 09:40:20 Basic Tenoner Sagamite 09:42:24 -!- msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.dynamic.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:43:03 Studying the double-buffering code in Backends/CLX/medium.lisp, I think I now know how to make a per-pane framebuffer backend for McCLIM. 09:43:14 okay, I think I renewed cliki.net 09:43:31 michaelw: Thank you! How did you do it? 09:43:52 I went to joker.com and whipped out my credit card :) 09:44:05 michaelw: applause! 09:44:13 michaelw: when will it expire now? 09:44:25 they didn't say how long it takes to get it online 09:44:36 while everyone was wondering how to check whether someone already did it :) 09:45:16 For the framebuffer backend, I was wondering when and how to resize the corresponding image, and I think I'll just check before every graphics operation that its size is the same as that of the sheet mirror. If not, reallocate and copy over. 09:45:27 cmm-: saved me some money! :) 09:46:26 H4ns: not just you! :) 09:47:14 ls 09:47:29 mvilleneuve: ? 09:48:00 sorry, wrong window... 09:48:47 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:49:12 (not having window decorations saves me some display space, but makes focus less obvious...) 09:51:00 clim sheet-medium 09:51:00 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/8-3.html#_416 09:51:07 -!- HelicopterBen is now known as NoorDextor 09:51:17 minion: cliki? 09:51:18 cliki: CLiki is a free collaborative hypertext (Web) authoring program, written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cliki 09:51:24 it's back 09:52:01 michaelw: hammer! 09:53:26 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:53:42 ferada [n=ferada@e179235086.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:54:52 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:55:29 bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-174-7.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:55:35 clhs 09:55:48 clhs return 09:55:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_return.htm 09:56:16 bertskert, fyi, there's also l1sp.org/cl/return - so you don't join here just to ask the specbot. :) 09:57:06 Plus, you can legally copy the entire Common Lisp HyperSpec to your local machine. 09:57:45 hi, is this timer behaviour normal? http://pastebin.com/d6bda13d0 (sbcl-1.0.19) 09:57:46 harder to search. 09:58:26 ferada, you lack a parameter to format. 09:58:34 thats _not_ the problem 09:58:46 Hrm. *shuts up, once again* 09:58:49 just say its a valid lambda 09:59:18 knobo [n=bohmersp@148.122.202.168] has joined #lisp 09:59:19 tic, but I didn't know the url.. I googled it but didn't find it. 09:59:27 bertskert, now you do! 09:59:33 yes 10:00:16 Is there any reason to do (copy-list (remove-if-not ...))? Doesn't remove-if-not a new clean list? 10:00:31 Hm. Delete? 10:00:50 remove-if-not does not necessarily return a new clean list 10:01:59 not modifying the old list and returning a new list are not the same thing 10:02:00 ok, so there can be a common tail. 10:02:44 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:19 -!- NoorDextor is now known as HelicopterBen 10:04:42 OK, so for the framebuffer backend, it seems I can use a mixin (say framebuffer-mixin) for a sheet, create a new medium (as a subclass of clx-medium) containing an image, and create such a medium in a specialized version of make-medium. 10:04:53 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 10:06:25 if a throw is never occured during evaluation of a catch, then catch gets the values returned from the body, am I right? 10:06:34 *catch returns 10:07:48 bertskert: are you sure that you need catch and throw? they are low-level constructs. 10:08:23 it seems convenient. you think I should use (return)? 10:08:45 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 10:09:20 I'm having a function returning either a lambda-expr or a symbol if no lambda-expr was found by the function.. so I catch the symbol and else just continue 10:09:23 bertskert: Certainly, if you are making a transfer to a place that is within the lexical scope, you should probably use block and return-from instead. 10:09:30 bertskert: i don't know anything about your problem at hand. i'd be careful with any non-local flow control transfer. 10:09:49 cpape [n=user@p5484F860.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:27 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 10:11:31 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 10:12:07 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-154.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:12:35 ok, thx 10:18:09 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:03 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:28:28 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:01 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:58 -!- Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:42:58 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:50:01 ferada_ [n=ferada@f054012075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:50:29 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:50:48 -!- ferada [n=ferada@e179235086.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:50:51 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 10:51:10 -!- ferada_ is now known as ferada 10:57:07 masm [n=user@213.22.190.91] has joined #lisp 11:00:18 epoch [n=FAIL@adsl-69-208-70-110.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:08 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 11:02:13 Is there a tool like doxygen for lisp? 11:03:57 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:04:36 notsonerdysunny: http://www.cliki.net/Documentation%20tool 11:05:28 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 11:05:47 do you have any personal suggestions ..? about which is good? 11:06:00 please don't use tinaa 11:06:03 no. :) 11:06:17 not satisfied with anything i've seen so far, to be honest 11:06:38 me neither, that's why I ended up using plain texinfo 11:07:03 michaelw: yeah, i ended up regressing to texinfo too 11:07:08 notsonerdysunny: see here for the result: http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/projects/cl-dot/ 11:07:23 texinfo + some docstring extractor works for me 11:07:48 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 11:07:52 I like the output from atdoc, too 11:07:57 what's a good docstring extractor? 11:08:51 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:53 atdoc seems nice, just too many dependencies for me at the moment 11:09:04 locklace: afaik there are only two that produce texinfo: sbcl's in-tree solution, and texinfo-docstrings (based on sbcl's, extracted by luis) 11:09:37 locklace: http://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/git/texinfo-docstrings/ 11:09:40 it could use some love 11:09:49 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:09:51 thanks 11:10:12 so, who paid for cliki.net this time? 11:10:14 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:15 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 11:10:57 silenius_ [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:06 beach: pong 11:12:22 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 11:12:31 luis: michaelw did 11:13:54 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 11:14:56 michaelw: why don't you like tinaa ? 11:16:09 Thanks guys .. it was help full .. let me check them out... 11:17:39 after all, it has a wacky logo 11:18:25 (I assume the author was german?) 11:18:55 on cliki, possibly it would be worth taking a collection to pay the domain up for the next decade or so? 11:18:59 :) 11:19:10 anyway atdoc output is sweet :) 11:20:50 edi's documentation-template generates html from docstrings. i have a hacked-up version that generates xml and does the hyperlinking automatically; that one will eventually be incorporated into documentation-template. see http://common-lisp.net/project/yason for sample output. 11:22:35 someone (hefner, IIRC?( suggested doing it the other way around, to generate docstrings from a manual. 11:25:02 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:27:17 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 11:29:06 not I. 11:30:25 <_deepfire> luis, michaelw, in his planet post 11:30:38 indeed 11:34:31 Gark183 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 11:36:04 -!- Gark183 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:37:34 Phell024 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 11:38:50 -!- Phell024 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:39:59 -!- simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:40:25 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:40:35 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 11:40:40 -!- silenius_ [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 11:40:41 blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.223] has joined #lisp 11:43:06 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 11:45:32 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:01 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:50:18 mathrick [n=mathrick@87.54.43.37] has joined #lisp 11:50:18 -!- knobo [n=bohmersp@148.122.202.168] has quit ["rebooting to newly compiled emacs"] 11:50:36 knobo [n=bohmersp@148.122.202.168] has joined #lisp 11:51:31 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:57:59 mulligan [n=user@75-84.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:11 simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has joined #lisp 12:02:19 yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has joined #lisp 12:12:29 hefner: I think I figured it out. It looked to me like double-buffering was never tested for, but it was, in the backend. 12:14:00 hefner: I am currently experimenting with a per-sheet framebuffer backend. I think that will be easier to start with, because I am pretty sure McCLIM is broken wrt non-mirrored sheets. I could be wrong, though. 12:20:07 I don't think there's anything wrong with a backend presenting the illusion of mirrored sheets to mcclim, other than having to do some work which mcclim in theory ought to do itself 12:20:08 ecraven` [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 12:20:17 it probably makes some things easier 12:21:35 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:11 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:23:22 hefner: Well, as I recall, the entire chain of calls that searches for the first mirrored sheet (which might be the root) and applies successive sheet-transformations and sheet-regions used to be broken. 12:24:12 mulligan` [n=user@75-87.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 12:25:35 bartiosze [n=user@ejf118.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:26:02 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:27:11 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:27:35 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:07 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:32:27 hmm, is it possible to specify microseconds in sb-ext:schedule-timer? or is there another way to create a timer with lower resolution? 12:33:34 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp145.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:33:59 ferada: it's probably unrealistic to expect it to reliably deal with that sort of precision, anyway? 12:34:02 -? 12:34:22 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c-d470e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:34:28 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 12:34:35 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 12:34:48 sthalik [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:34:49 i can handle delays if they occur, but i need something like half or third of a second to handle events 12:35:02 attila_lendvai: ping 12:35:07 a tick of one second is way to slow 12:35:28 is it required to take an integer? 12:36:10 -!- simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 12:36:34 i think so, its not further specified 12:36:42 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-026-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:57 simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has joined #lisp 12:39:01 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:02 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:39:33 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:39:35 ferada: I think you can use a float 12:40:10 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:40:14 yCrazyEdd [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-57-125.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:40:24 -!- yCrazyEdd is now known as CrazyEddy 12:40:57 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 12:42:37 tcr: yes you can :) problem solved for now 12:43:09 -!- mulligan [n=user@75-84.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:44 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:48:24 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:49:18 -!- dash___ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-026-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:33 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 12:51:37 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 12:53:36 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 12:57:12 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:58:53 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 13:05:05 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:06:02 -!- mulligan` [n=user@75-87.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:04 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:09:38 michaelw, I think it was you who mentioned it... what would the better solution replacing Cliki.net be? 13:10:43 cliki2.0.net! 13:10:55 (or .com, maybe; .net is passe) 13:11:04 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:12:01 lisp.myspace.com 13:14:11 simonb_ [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has joined #lisp 13:14:17 wiki.common-lisp.net ? 13:14:34 matimago, probably better. how about cl-user.net? 13:14:34 -!- simonb_ [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:14:50 (and how is the lisp.org redesign coming along?) 13:14:56 users.common-lisp.net perhaps? 13:16:07 matimago, cl-user has more functionality htant hat. 13:17:54 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:01 tic: you don't need a second-level domain name to hang functionality on the web. 13:19:12 simonb_ [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has joined #lisp 13:20:33 matimago, of course not. I'm just thinking loudly here. cl-user does quite a lot. 13:21:26 it's very, erm, unpleasant, though 13:21:52 and has the second-most-horrible urls in the whole world 13:22:01 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:22:17 (the most horrible are Microsoft live.com ones; they have GUIDs in them) 13:23:05 -!- simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:23:14 what's not to like about globally-unique URLs? 13:23:42 eevar__ [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:24:53 irritatingly, clWX doesn't work on MacOS Leopard :( 13:25:11 (or rather the old version of wxWindows on which it depends doesn't) 13:25:51 I was initially trying to fix it, but am now leaning towards just writing a cl wrapper for the wxc that wxhaskell uses) 13:26:00 it's considerably more up-to-date anyway 13:27:19 <_deepfire> luis, git://git.sanityinc.com/darcs-to-git works, btw 13:28:57 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:29:36 ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:09 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:32:44 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d834d6.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:35:59 rsynnott: Could you try to make it use IMA when compiled with GCC, instead of creating *big* C files? 13:36:38 IMA? 13:37:31 Inter-Module Analysis 13:37:58 wxHaskell creates two *big* C files which then take forever to compile 13:38:50 I wonder if GCC would work faster if it was allowed to compile individual files, with eventually IMA enabled for some optimization 13:39:28 -!- tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@unaffiliated/tc-rucho] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:41:24 or at least leave a warning in docs, with big info "Close everything and go for a long walk when you want to compile the C code for the wrapper" :) 13:41:50 -!- eevar_ [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:42:34 wormilwork [n=Miranda@adsl-070-155-056-058.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:51 One problem of such generated code: At some point GCC runs out of address space and dies. 13:43:49 The rule of thumb is to split the C files in chunks of less than 1 MB. 13:44:07 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:50 p_l: I don't want to rewrite the C bit 13:46:10 I plan just to wrap wxhaskell's wxc 13:46:44 (similar to how wxcl currenctly wraps its own outdated fork of wxc) 13:47:18 (the current one requires a non-unicode build of wxWindows 2.6.x or lower) 13:47:18 hi. is there a standard way to get a list of subdirectories of a directory in Common Lisp? 13:47:34 whereas the haskell one supports 2.8.x, and unicode 13:47:49 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 13:48:16 unfortunately, 2.6.x doesn't work on leopard 13:48:30 and anyway, unicode seems like a nice thing to have :) 13:48:39 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:11 rsynnott: I'm not talking about rewriting the C bit - the whole change seems to be that haskell version cats all the files together to form two monster files that are then compiled in 13:49:38 ah 13:49:43 dto: cl-fad maybe 13:49:51 -!- sthalik is now known as weirdo 13:54:09 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 13:54:38 dto: (directory "/path/**/") 13:55:00 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:55:56 oh, cool :) 13:56:24 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp145.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 13:56:52 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:57:21 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:58:00 rsynnott: It would be nice to have wxWindows working correctly :) 13:58:42 indeed 13:59:07 though it's very much a personal messing-about project for me, so will likely take some time 14:01:03 I'm having to balance it with iphone stuff, social life, and not going COMPLETELY mad at work :) 14:01:50 tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:04:49 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 14:08:40 *p_l* would prefer CL for WinCE or SymbianOS than various iphone stuff 14:09:17 in asdf files, I sometimes see a (defpackage ... :system-to-be-defined.system). Is that for not interning symbols into other packages? 14:10:03 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:10:04 each .asd file is read into its own temporary package anyway, so that defpackage is rather superfluous 14:10:08 p_l: ah, I've been terribly unimpressed by other smartphones 14:10:14 -!- simonb_ [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:10:34 of course, the ideal would be cl for iphone, but given Apple's terribly restrictive rules on compilers that is unlikely to happen 14:10:41 cmm-: is that what sbcl calls ASDF0? 14:10:46 kami-: I think that's just people being paranoid 14:10:52 rsynnott: I have been terribly disappointed by iPhone, having used other smartphones around 14:11:02 kami-: no idea 14:11:33 :) takes all kinds 14:11:39 *kami-* goes without system-defining-package 14:11:45 rsynnott: Sure, it has some nice hw, but the software is... no comments, would lead to large-scale flamewar 14:11:47 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:02 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 14:12:02 (also, I think memory would be a problem for CL on just about any smartphone) 14:12:09 they tend to have modest amounts 14:12:31 <_3b> port one of the DOS CLs 14:12:32 and that's likely to be the case for a while; they have little memory more to save power than because memory is expensive (it isn't) 14:12:40 well, smartphones require one to think about memory again 14:13:25 my E51 has 80MB of RAM available for apps, and runs a full-blown python vm just fine 14:13:48 simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has joined #lisp 14:13:50 I think ECL wouldn't have much problems 14:13:56 ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:17 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 14:15:10 Well, SBCL would require some tweaking... 14:15:27 it'd have to be ported to ARM, for a start :) 14:15:55 Gast886 [n=Gast886@ip48-242.tvtrinec.cz] has joined #lisp 14:16:18 -!- Gast886 [n=Gast886@ip48-242.tvtrinec.cz] has left #lisp 14:16:42 and have a lot of work done on memory management, I think. smartphone OSes usually don't take gian mmaps lightly 14:16:48 *giant 14:17:24 there is a gcc available for Symbian. Would that be enough for ecl? 14:17:57 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:25 kami-: It is enough, I think 14:18:47 We would need only to make a CL interface to all those C++ classes 14:19:14 p_l: how about verrazano? 14:19:17 'only' 14:19:33 I think I saw some mention of someone using ecl with iphone a while back 14:19:33 kami-: verrazano? haven't heard of it 14:19:52 though apple would still not permit distribution of apps made that way, probably 14:20:27 rsynnott: Well, to make iPhone a good smartphone, the first thing to do is jailbreak... and use unofficial SDK 14:20:36 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5229.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:20:51 someone needs to get info on writing drivers for iPhone OS 14:21:10 I don't think jailbreaking alone will let you actually load DRIVERS 14:21:32 (though it's probably pretty much identical to writing drivers for MacOS; it's a similar kernel) 14:21:39 rsynnott: Well, it allows you to run soft as root, ne? 14:21:43 <_3b> when is a setf expander needed instead of (setf foo) ? 14:22:00 And the thing to do is replacing that idiotic bt stack 14:22:04 -!- phao [n=phao@20158133062.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:22:25 -!- cpape [n=user@p5484F860.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:22:53 run software as root, sure. Mess with the kernel? I doubt it 14:23:15 mobile phone regulators get funny about such things being even vaguely user accessible 14:23:38 rsynnott: usually they don't care, unless OS writer fucked up 14:24:34 the thing is that most ARM cores designed for phones are dual cpu designs or use a specialized external SoC. 14:25:17 on that secondary unit the code responsible for talking is located. This way you can get certification once, instead of certifying every OS update 14:25:33 minion: tell p_l about verrazano. 14:25:34 p_l: direct your attention towards verrazano: You said Verrazano? Well sorry, the actual name is fetter. http://www.cliki.net/verrazano 14:25:50 as well as allowing any software to be installed on such phone... 14:26:14 okay, he's clearly trolling at this point: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/75d1c582aadfae81# 14:28:08 kami-: Could it be what is available as gcc-xml-ffi in clbuild? 14:28:21 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:29:42 p_l: actually, I don't know anything about it. Just stumbled upon it once. 14:30:16 SWIG can also generate CFFI stuff for C and C++ libs these days 14:30:39 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:49 drdo [n=psykon@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 14:34:00 p_l: i'd try verrazano instead... it also works based on gcc_xml. if you are willing to work on in, then there's a TODO to generate cffi-grovel files instead of cffi definitions and then it's a 100% solution for an FFI interface 14:34:49 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 14:35:32 Well, it won't pay for my rent, so it has to wait ;-) 14:35:38 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp145.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:35:39 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:03 attila_lendvai: you've tried it with c++, isn't it? 14:36:47 -!- drdo [n=psykon@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:48 with cffi-grovel it could easily generate c wrappers for c++ stuff, and leave the crap for gcc... 14:36:48 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:57 -!- maxote [n=maxote@84.79.67.254] has quit [Client Quit] 14:36:58 -!- ecraven` is now known as ecraven 14:38:27 -!- masm [n=user@213.22.190.91] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:38:52 it would be nice to extend it to more than only C, though 14:39:17 It would be nice, but unfortunately there's no standard binary interface for c++ like there is for C 14:39:26 I don't mean C++ 14:40:04 getting a fortran wrapper would be *very* interesting 14:40:41 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:40:49 maxote [n=maxote@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 14:41:43 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:42:08 p_l: lift parsing code from f2cl, after that assume it's C with pointers everywhere. 14:42:20 afk - battery dead 14:42:51 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:57 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 14:43:26 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:43:28 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:44:48 what is an asdf:operation-done-p for a test-op good for, which returns nil (found in alexandria)? 14:45:25 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 14:45:48 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 14:47:30 Anyone who got cl-ncurses to work at Allegro CL? 14:47:55 Without asdf-install. 14:48:50 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:50:56 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 14:53:06 -!- ivansto [i=ivans@93-138-60-54.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:53:48 ivansto [i=ivans@93-138-22-68.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:57:59 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 14:59:17 -!- holycow [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:46 -!- prowack [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.1 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"] 15:00:50 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:01:01 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.216] has joined #lisp 15:02:41 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:15 tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@190.191.162.100] has joined #lisp 15:05:37 <_3b> beach: conditions in sicl seem to be missing the stream param in a few of the print/princ calls 15:11:30 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 15:15:34 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslco024.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:16:16 hi 15:16:38 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:16:52 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:17:12 ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:17:16 mega1` [n=mega@3e44bd54.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:17:33 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.2] has joined #lisp 15:17:56 -!- ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 15:18:39 does anyone have a reference to the makefile syntax / "more than 12 users" backwards compatibility thing? 15:18:41 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:20:29 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:20:42 ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:21:15 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:21:15 mchurch [n=user@ec2-67-202-38-234.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:46 _3b: entirely possible 15:22:23 _3b: I'll look into it later. 15:23:17 I've noticed in Paul Graham's On Lisp that he often puts lambda-expressions after sharp-quotes, e.g. (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (* x x)) '(1 2 3 4)) instead of (mapcar (lambda (x) (* x x)) '(1 2 3 4)). What is the difference? 15:23:44 Lambda is also a macro that expands to #'(lambda 15:23:47 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@87.54.43.37] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:23:56 <_3b> mchurch: how long the author has been using lisp is probably the difference 15:24:13 Technically, you'll see that in "oldschool" code :) 15:24:37 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:10 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 15:25:13 <_3b> some people actively prefer one or the other style for aesthetic reasons, but generally they are the same 15:25:21 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 15:26:04 Ok. Thanks. That's good to know. 15:26:23 tc-rucho1 [n=tc-rucho@190.191.162.100] has joined #lisp 15:26:30 I thought that they were perhaps different in macros, but I couldn't tease out any differences. 15:27:02 My thought was that possibly #' represented the function even within the macro, while the lambda expression would be treated as a list of symbols, but I played around with it, and this didn't seem to be the case 15:27:19 By #' in the above, I mean "the form with #'" 15:27:20 -!- tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@190.191.162.100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:33 -!- tc-rucho1 is now known as tc-rucho 15:27:35 mchurch: #'foo means (function foo) right? 15:27:43 <_3b> you can distinguish them with a macro if you don't evaluate it 15:27:51 <_3b> but when evaluated, they are the same 15:28:39 <_3b> since #' expands in the reader, but lambda expands at macro-expansion time 15:29:35 mchurch: LAMBDA is a macro that expands to (function (lambda ...)) 15:30:22 mchurch: so, (lambda ...) expands to #'(lambda ...) 15:31:16 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 15:32:50 When I profile my package and run a function, I get an error that isn't there without profiling. "The value -6000 is not of type UNSIGNED-BYTE." Does that ring any bells ? 15:33:23 That's in ((FLET #:CLEANUP-FUN-[EXIT-TAG-[PROFILE-ENCAPSULATION-LAMBDAS]126]151))[:CLEANUP] 15:33:26 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:36 for aesthetic reasons, I use an implicit lambda whenever possible, as the lambda construction adds nothing to the semantic of the whole expression. (mapcar! (* _ _) '(1 2 3 4)) 15:35:14 auclairb: if you can paste a small test case, that would be appreciated. In the meantime, you could use the statistical profiler (which I prefer to the instrumenting one, except on platforms where it doesn't work well, like darwin/x86) 15:38:32 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:39:17 kuwabara: have you seen lambda-with-bang-args reader in cl-syntax-sugar? http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-syntax-sugar/ 15:39:28 milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.65] has joined #lisp 15:39:48 -!- bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:43:13 attila_lendvai: nice ! better than what I do ! 15:46:08 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-16-213.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:14 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:24 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:25 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:43 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 15:52:34 bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:51 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E5CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:58 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:57:38 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 15:57:39 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:02:31 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to run"] 16:03:41 gmdjm1959 [n=gmdjm195@ip98-180-5-45.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:49 My attempt at a per-sheet McCLIM framebuffer backend: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/stuff.png 16:06:21 using your font! 16:06:28 Indeed. 16:06:39 It reminds me of something. Georgia? 16:06:59 The font does? I wouldn't know. 16:07:09 Yeah. 16:07:11 framebuffer backend.. what's that? 16:07:15 beach: this looks good! 16:07:16 -!- idurand [n=idurand@chataigne.labri.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:07:18 But more important is that it is actually in a CLIM application now. 16:07:22 mvilleneuve: thanks. 16:07:39 beach, yeah, that's nice. 16:07:50 beach: that's your own home-made font? 16:07:53 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 16:07:58 schme_: Instead of using core X11 drawing commands. I draw to an X11 image and ship it over to the server at the end of the command loop iteration. 16:08:04 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:11 rsynnott: Yeah, it needs some tuning. 16:08:15 Hoh.. 16:08:24 I didn't understand a word of that, but good going :) 16:08:31 beach: it's quite nice, especially if you're not a professional designer 16:08:32 *schme_* was thinking directfb. 16:08:45 beach: does that add significant overhead? 16:08:55 rsynnott: I am not. But the `t' and the `e' are too close together for instance. 16:08:57 *rsynnott* hasn't used X11 in any vaguely low-level way in years 16:09:08 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:09:27 (if nothing else, it's nice to see people not always using the same three fonts) 16:09:34 beach: Now that you mention it.. the 't' seems a bit odd in general me thinks. Other than that it is very nice :) 16:09:35 rsynnott: Not if you run it locally. I have made some tests that indicate that you can transmit some 20 images per second this way. 16:09:55 beach: in demodemo there's a draw-text benchmark, I think 16:09:59 I luv the s's 16:10:05 it really is a shame that that auto-font-download thing some versions of netscape had never caught on 16:10:21 How did taht work? 16:10:36 and more importantly, could one turn it off? ;) 16:10:47 Krystof: This is just barely working now. It doesn't seem to accept my setting the text-style of the medium, so I cheat. 16:10:50 you could, yep 16:10:59 rsynnott, it's in css-3.0 16:11:47 What would be nice is if I could figure out how to make firefox lock the font and use the same for everything. 16:11:55 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:12:20 @font-something-or-the-other. I'm too lazy to ask my colleague in the other room who's actually implementing the stuff. :) 16:12:34 as it is, we have times [new roman], helvetica, and the evil Microsoft version of helvetica :) 16:12:49 Hmm.. 16:12:58 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:00 Sounds horrible. 16:13:22 (not evil BECAUSE it's Microsoft, in this case, simply because it's Helvetica made uglier) 16:13:36 oh! 16:13:42 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 16:13:46 I found the setting to lock the font :) 16:13:59 tic: Would that css-3 font bollocks override my default font? 16:14:11 schme_, like I said, too lazy. ;) 16:14:20 schme_, there's probably a draft explaining the details. 16:14:25 hmm.. 16:14:29 It better not. 16:14:40 Or I will kill your colleague. 16:14:51 That's not very polite. 16:15:01 Not very polite to override my font either :) 16:15:30 schme_: document stylesheets are not allowed to override the user-agent stylesheet (and the user-agent does the rendering, so...) 16:15:32 as long as Comic Sans is specifically excluded... 16:15:32 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:41 schme_: this is how the "Always use my fonts" checkbox works 16:15:43 Anyway, I think that's enough work for today (especially since I started more than 13 hours ago). 16:15:57 ZabaQ [n=ZabaQ@194-105-174-193.ifb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:16:00 mdxi: Well what do I know. Maybe the css3 overrides it. 16:16:13 in some magic way! 16:16:26 beach: good work! take a 5 minute break :) 16:16:27 that would break a lot of accessibility stuff pretty horribly, which is not very w3c-like :) 16:16:49 I do hope so. 16:16:57 schme_: more like a 10h one. 16:17:06 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-168-33.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:17:06 :( 16:17:26 ok food, then code hack. 16:18:49 poor food --> 'hack' code :P 16:18:50 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:29 -!- gmdjm1959 [n=gmdjm195@ip98-180-5-45.ga.at.cox.net] has left #lisp 16:22:03 is "food" that non-caffeinated solid matter that you drink with jaw movements? 16:23:31 pizza, does it blend? 16:23:32 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.2] has joined #lisp 16:25:03 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:11 fusss: I road somewhere that that 'food' sometimes runs around! 16:26:08 sure, how else can roadkill bbq places find their meat 16:26:58 Food is the thing you make in your sprouter. 16:27:34 kruth [n=chatzill@kruth.org] has joined #lisp 16:27:43 willb [n=wibenton@wireless57.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:30:29 benny [n=benny@i577A15BE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:30:31 bloody nose FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU 16:30:58 ? 16:31:10 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 16:31:54 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:32:03 This has drifted quite far from the #lisp I am used to. 16:32:36 elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has joined #lisp 16:33:23 phao [n=phao@20158133062.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:33:26 not really. the F+U+ string looks like a tagged pointer too me. upper F bits are for type, gc, and clos tags. the U's point a BiBOP heap. it all makes sense. 16:34:21 fusss: yes yes, i see it now, what about my sprouter and roadkill bbq places ? 16:35:12 no sir, you wont catch me justifying irresponsible chatter. repeated strings OTOH .. 16:35:31 auclairb, goodness, there's no Xach to tell people not to be off-topic 16:35:52 heavens forbid any air of being social in here 16:35:59 is he taking a holiday from irc? 16:36:34 probably driven away by inane chatter 16:37:28 (being social doesn't in fact scale terribly well, and actively interferes with technical exchanges. By all means be social elsewhere) 16:38:40 Krystof, being social doesn't scale? Have you heard of the nation state? 16:39:04 There is another channel for lisp users who want to be social. It's #lispcafe. 16:39:14 oh wo. 16:39:16 wow 16:39:18 ahaas: just the guy i need 16:39:34 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:36 ahaas: did you see _3b's awesome hack? a lisp for flash :-) 16:39:59 fusss: I saw you guys chatting about it, but I haven't had time to really look into anything. 16:40:09 The discussion was interesting, though. 16:40:30 ahaas: yeah, there are bunch of us now :-) 16:40:36 fusss: in reference to your '?', I just had a bloody nose; I said the aforementioned statement when a drop splattered on my spacebar. 16:41:02 fusss: I was going to mention about the haxe guy already being on top of the new opcodes introduced for Alchemy, but you guys seem to be on that. 16:41:25 i found that by accident actually, looking at the Tamarin sources 16:42:08 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 16:42:08 do you know of a decent avm2 ABC decompiler? 16:42:19 i use flasm and .. well, it's flasm 16:42:22 Xach has the start of one, at least. 16:42:26 Quadrescence: ewh 16:42:52 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:43:12 fusss: I don't know how it compares to flasm, but it's in Lisp. 16:43:26 cl-flash, IIRC 16:43:36 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:54 tamarin and mmgc are both open source, really cool. 16:44:50 i tried to experiment with self-GC'ed memory on flash, making large arrays and allocating objects there in. seems like the player kills anything that tries to grab big chunks of memory. 16:45:11 attila_lendvai: what is the best way for activating the sharp-boolean syntax of cl-syntax-sugar for an asdf package? 16:45:17 NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-154.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:45:31 would using its own GC be an option? 16:45:33 there is also a 15 second timeout limit. so any lisp on the flash platform better not do anything complicated :-P 16:45:42 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:45:46 fusss: What is cl-flash? 16:45:56 fusss: really? It doesn't seem to bother to kill youtube for me when it hits 200MB :S 16:46:06 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:46:37 There is a 15 second limit for the Flash player to execute code w/o moving on to a new frame. 16:46:47 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 16:47:07 rsynnott: if you want to represent cons cells in the traditional way, possibly optimizing in compact cdr-encoded form, then you can't have that in avm2. you're forced to view cons as object with two priorities (which also has traits, parent and other overhead) 16:47:26 ahaas: i though cl-flash was xach's flash project 16:47:27 ah, yep, that sounds undesirable 16:47:30 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 16:47:57 fusss: I think Xach had an older Flash project, perhaps, but the decompiling thing was something new that he did recently. 16:48:16 fusss: And I don't think he named it or released it. 16:48:46 fusss: But, he emailed it to me, so he'd probably be happy to give it to you as well. 16:48:55 ahaas: it's on his website somewhere, I think 16:48:56 ahaas: what's your take on flex vs air? are we gonna have a richer platform on "air", or is air just flash applet + runtime packaged in an executable? 16:49:01 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:29 I have have little interest, personally, in Adobe Air. If I'm going to make desktop apps, I'd be very happy to use any other language. But, I think it's a good way to leverage to masses of Flash devs. 16:51:21 some of the stuff is not very easy to do with other languages tho. plus it blurs the difference between web app and desktop app. 16:51:28 kami-: see for example cl-quasi-quote's .asd and configuration.lisp 16:51:40 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.2] has joined #lisp 16:52:04 attila_lendvai: I tried to add :setup-readtable-function but asdf complained. 16:52:13 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 16:52:30 extreme eye candy :-) http://now.sprint.com/widget/ 16:53:43 attila_lendvai: oh, I overlooked :class system-with-readtable. sorry. 16:54:21 fusss: er.. 16:54:25 jebus 16:55:26 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:55:53 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 16:56:38 i know, it's loud, but flex excels for graphic rich full-screen applications; say, trading software, for example. 16:57:03 trading software. Is that hugely in demand right now? 16:57:16 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:34 so that whole page is a flex app? 16:59:03 not really, that was just an example. usually businessy stuff look better with flex. though i'm not sure of adobe's data source api or how well they integrate with the system (think DDE type data exchange) 16:59:13 Fade: yep 16:59:25 I've always found flash apps a bit... odd 16:59:32 give me native-ish apps any day 16:59:51 i'm sort of annoyed by the defacto standardisation of flash on the web 16:59:57 but those widgets are pretty neat. 17:00:14 only thing I ever find myself using flash for is youtube et al 17:00:15 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.223] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:00:21 could one build a CLIM backend using flash? 17:00:24 most flash apps seem rather pointless 17:00:36 mvilleneuve: would one reallly WANT to? :) 17:00:51 rsynnott: I have no idea :) 17:00:54 you probably could, using the flash bit like gtk-server 17:00:57 i'm not sure what interfaces flash exposes for such things. 17:01:22 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 17:01:39 fusss: You know.. I'd prefer to code with WPF than with Flash if I had to. At least I can then write a native app and have small wrapper for UI in WPF done.... 17:01:47 I know you can access web services through SOAP or XML-RPC, but I'm not sure the flash app could act as server 17:01:53 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:02:25 -!- mega1` [n=mega@3e44bd54.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:26 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-78.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:48 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 17:02:50 WPF being the microsoft thing, right? wont be bit twice from the same hole :-) 17:03:05 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslco024.osnanet.de] has quit [] 17:03:50 fusss: If I'm making a GUI for something that is going to work on Vista, why not? DWM is certainly better than GDI 17:04:30 of course only if that thing is supposed to have lots of bling etc. 17:04:35 <_3b> fusss: if by 'decompile' you mean 'disassemble' my code has one of those 17:04:36 or is windows-only 17:05:41 _3b:cool. i already have something goes through an swf file and can get me from one tag to another. just run your tool on the abc tags then :-) 17:06:13 <_3b> fusss: probably need some work to get it to the format my code expects, but shouldn't be too hard 17:06:17 p_l: you can target vista, or you can target 99% of desktop applications with flash. it's a personal choice. 17:06:52 _3b: no problem. i need to step away from hacking for a week to focus on work anyway. nothing urgent. 17:06:56 brb 17:06:58 fusss: Well, flash doesn't work for everyone. WPF works on XP and later. 17:07:50 p_l: ummm. flash has players for every major desktop platform, and four or five processors. runs on several OSes. 17:08:07 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 17:08:38 fusss: it sucks on both macs and linux, last time I checked. 17:08:57 fusss: Well, I specified that would be the choice for windows-only app (or a windows UI). For multiplatform stuff, I'd use wxWindows or GTK, or even LTK if noone would complain about the look 17:09:04 <_3b> don't they finally have a 64bit linux version at least? 17:09:09 flash sucks on macs and linux. WPF doesn't _exist_ 17:09:12 cause I seriously don't like the loopholes to use flash 17:09:30 _3b: which sucks even harder than the 32bit version. 17:09:40 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:09:42 <_3b> luis: ah, guess that doesn't help then :) 17:10:26 Out of curiosity, what is the sucking part with flash on linux? 17:10:48 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:52 p_l: if you want a lisp gui i recommend lambda-gtk. ltk is .. well, not up to my expectations 17:11:06 -!- eevar__ [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:11:15 Seems to me the portable way is to use sdl, and write a whole gui on top of that :) 17:12:22 lambda-gtk does not seem to run on windows? 17:13:05 schme_: i only run it on windows 17:13:31 *beach* reads up on the repaint protocol. 17:13:39 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@151.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:13:49 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.216] has quit [] 17:13:53 fusss: Weird. It doesn't list windows on the site :S 17:14:14 schme_: take my word for it. but the starting procedure is a kludge. 17:14:28 Oh I do take your word for it. 17:15:38 cpape [n=user@p5484F860.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:59 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:16:51 load-op can't auto compile it. so you have to compile in two separate steps. 17:17:19 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:28 it uses funky auto generation of symbols, and there is forward-reference/backware-defenition hell. load-op twice 17:20:27 Once again I am happy I don't have to worry about stuff running on windows ;) 17:20:51 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:22:24 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:22:43 -!- tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:23:44 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:24:42 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:24:59 <_3b> fusss: oh yeah, got your filled circle example from yesterday working 17:25:03 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:43 Is there a simple library with which I can "draw" simple 2D primitives onto a sort-of canvas? 17:26:56 (by 'draw', I mean programmatically) 17:27:03 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:27:04 _3b annotated #70939 with "ugly but working" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70939#1 17:27:23 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:29 Quadrescence, SDL? 17:27:35 <_3b> minion: vecto 17:27:37 vecto: Vecto is a graphics library that uses cl-vectors and ZPNG to draw vector graphics to PNG files. http://www.cliki.net/vecto 17:29:07 Quadrescence: I use ZPNG and transform to pixels myself. Perhaps vecto can help you with the drawing of the primitives. That is, if you want to output to a file 17:29:08 I typed "minion: sdl" into google. S: 17:29:26 madnificent: I was more meaning to draw directly to some window. 17:30:07 <_3b> lispbuilder-sdl might be good then (released package might be broken though, but svn worked) 17:30:29 masm [n=user@213.22.190.91] has joined #lisp 17:30:29 I'll take a look. 17:31:07 -!- masm [n=user@213.22.190.91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:38 no idea if it's maintained, but I just ran across poly-pen 17:34:43 http://www.cliki.net/poly-pen 17:35:06 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:10 http://ygingras.net/poly-pen-doc/ 17:35:27 _3b: sweet! 17:36:17 lispbuilder-sdl package works for me on windows; clisp and sbcl 17:36:29 schme_: the problems with flash on linux - if you have 64bit browser getting it running is a kludge 17:36:39 Don't know about the new 64bit version 17:36:47 p_l 64bit flash 10 jsut came out on linux 17:37:12 dcrawford: Haven't yet played with it 17:37:13 I'm hoping to shortly have a lovely cross-platform GUI lib :) 17:37:25 Used flash 10 beta with nspluginwrapper 17:37:34 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 17:37:55 *p_l* will continue to load flash through nspluginwrapper 17:38:33 is a 64bit browser really necessary? :) 17:39:07 rsynnott: It is if you want to avoid loading twice as many libraries into memory 17:39:39 when the only application on the whole system that requires loading a big set of 32bit libs is your browser, then it's not a good thing 17:40:11 and FF is not known for being memory efficient, nor are the libraries used by it 17:40:24 *rsynnott* has the opposite situation; the only think I need 64bit libs for is ccl :) 17:40:49 -!- ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:41:16 well, I've got full 64bit system, maybe except wine and flash 17:41:47 hmm. 17:41:51 I wish I could run one of those. 17:42:01 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:43:29 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:44:41 even OpenOffice is available as 64bit now, IIRC 17:45:21 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 17:45:38 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 17:45:59 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-201-188.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:38 *Xof* blinks at sbcl-devel 17:46:50 someone still runs hpux? Cool 17:47:04 hi. which function would give "foo" from #P"/home/dto/foo") 17:47:18 wait, at least _two people_ still run hpux? 17:47:28 dto: file-namestring (iirc) 17:47:37 ah thank you :) 17:48:21 Xof: on a HPPA, no less! 17:48:38 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-201-188.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:47 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 17:50:04 rullie [n=rullie@129-97-68-142.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:51:44 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:52:52 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:04 Xof: Computing dept. at my uni runs HP-PA workstations 17:54:13 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:54:21 s/computing/engineering/ 17:55:41 <_3b> DOLIST should loop forever on a circular list, right? 17:55:48 and just after chandler deleted the HPPA column from the platform-table 17:56:35 I'd like a VMS/Alpha port.... 17:57:22 but my poor alpha won't take it easy 17:58:10 Why can I not use macro's expanding to functions or lambda expressions in direct function calls? 17:58:11 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 17:58:12 _3b: I think so. 17:58:38 meingbg: example? 17:59:34 (defmacro q () #'+) => Q 17:59:35 (funcall (q) 1 2) => 3 17:59:35 (q) => # 17:59:35 ((lambda (a b) (+ a b)) 1 2) => 3 17:59:38 ((q) 1 2) => Error 17:59:41 17:59:58 _3b: Most probably; You can look at by alexandria branch for a DO-PROPER-LIST function which signals an error if the list is circular. 17:59:58 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:00:48 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:00:59 <_3b> tcr: nah, i want it to loop, just making sure that isn't implementation dependent 18:01:07 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:01:31 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:43 meingbg: I think it's just a matter of invalid syntax :) 18:01:48 <_3b> though now that i think about it, i don't have DOLIST defined yet at that point in the code :/ 18:02:24 p_l: ours was always a sun shop 18:02:47 (though there was one alpha called vax2, just to confuse people) 18:03:19 _3b: I think an implementation is allowed to catch for it. I don't know of any which does, though. 18:03:28 i love the alpha/tru64 system 18:03:36 sort of sad the architecture is dead. 18:03:54 _3b: I retract that statement. I think DOLIST must in fact loop. 18:04:25 meingbg: (( does not strike me as ok very often :) 18:05:03 <_3b> tcr: ok, that was my interpretation too 18:05:22 <_3b> now i just need to decide if i should rearrange the code, or use a tagbody :) 18:06:10 -!- ZabaQ [n=ZabaQ@194-105-174-193.ifb.co.uk] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1"] 18:06:19 *_3b* wonders why we still use the file as the smallest unit of code dependency :/ 18:06:32 _3b, code dependency? what do you mean by that? 18:06:36 <_3b> and why we manage them by hand for that matter 18:06:40 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:41 I think the looping is wrong. "It then executes the body once for each element in the list" 18:07:50 <_3b> tic: i have to say file B depends on file A, instead of saying function B depends on function A 18:07:58 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:08:28 How would the system know where the functions are though? 18:08:29 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 18:08:48 <_3b> schme_: database, index, whatever... 18:08:49 sounds like a very interesting idea that. functions make more sense :) 18:08:53 _3b, true. 18:09:09 _3b, files are a nice way of organizing similar functions together though. 18:09:27 <_3b> tic: yeah, which is what caused the problem in the first place... 18:09:28 One could have a function / file though. 18:09:36 _3b, you could have some kind of zooming ui though. 18:09:38 or a function / row in the database. 18:09:41 <_3b> cons functions in 1 file, iteration constructs in another 18:10:09 <_3b> but that breaks when i want to implement a cons function with iteration, since the iteration functions need cons functions 18:10:52 <_3b> schme_: i was thinking it might be nice to have function as a blog in a git repo 18:11:03 That sounds nasty :) 18:11:06 *schme_* is not a git fan ;) 18:11:07 heh. you're too internetty. ;) 18:11:09 <_3b> schme_: then C-c C-c could do a checkin whenever it compile :) 18:11:13 (unless you meant blob) 18:11:23 <_3b> yeah, blob, sorry 18:11:24 _3b, interesting idea. 18:11:32 -!- tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@unaffiliated/tc-rucho] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:11:34 _3b, it's how it'll end up in the end anyway. 18:11:42 _3b, still have the problem of execution odrer. 18:11:42 <_3b> and the image could know the current sha1 hash of the compiled code, etc 18:11:50 josemanuel [n=josemanu@144.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:11:55 How would you work dependency? 18:12:09 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 18:12:42 <_3b> the editor/ide/storage stuff would have to know about symbols, then it could just build a dependency graph, and assemble as needed for full compilation 18:13:13 how do I remove the trailing slash from a pathname? I have #P"/home/dto/foo/" and want #P"/home/dto/foo" 18:13:30 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:34 hmmm. But it would have to work from command line sbcl though ? 18:13:50 tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@190.191.162.100] has joined #lisp 18:14:23 <_3b> presumably it would either have some corresponding asdf style lib that knows how to build from git or whatever on-disk representation it uses, or it could save a load-system script, or whatever 18:14:54 dto: what are you trying to do with it? 18:15:18 bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:23 sellout: i have a list of pathnames that are directories 18:15:41 like #P"/home/dto/foo/" and #P"/home/dto/bar/" 18:15:42 _3b: My problem with the idea is that I would have to setup dependency trees for everything when I write code :) 18:16:07 i have a function that tests whether "foo.pak" or "bar.pak" (respectively) exist within those dirs 18:16:09 <_3b> schme_: what do you mean? teh idea is for all the dependencies to be autogenerated 18:16:19 dto: checl out cl-fad 18:16:20 How would the autogeneration work? 18:16:23 er 'check' 18:16:34 you want the filename form of the directory name. 18:16:43 -!- uchi [n=user@85.139.117.150] has quit [] 18:16:54 schme_: IOW; the ((lambda (a b) (+ a b)) 1 2) syntax is actually lisp core language, cannot be altered, reprogrammed, built upon? 18:17:08 meingbg: I have no idea what IOW is. 18:17:16 "in other words" 18:17:19 oh ok. 18:17:25 <_3b> schme_: not a trivial project admittedly, which is why i still use files :) 18:17:35 meingbg: That's my bet. 18:17:40 dto pasted "my function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70974 18:17:49 meingbg: I seem to remember scheme being fond of (('s 18:17:58 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 18:18:02 _3b: It seems a very interesting idea nonetheless :) 18:18:31 Something would have to map functions to files too. 18:18:33 ugh. 18:18:39 <_3b> schme_: i'd be willing to accept some restrictions on how i code though, to save the effort of managing everything by hand... hard part is finding the minimal set if restrictions :) 18:18:45 dto annotated #70974 with "sbcl repl showing why slash messes up" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70974#1 18:19:04 Fade: the fact that HP scrapping of porting of Tru64 features to HP-UX was one of the forces driving customers away from it might be a small consolation :) 18:19:14 <_3b> schme_: files should be an implementation detail though, is my point 18:19:14 _3b: How do you propose coding with this. One still puts all stuff in a file, and that is processed and split up? 18:19:43 p_l: hpux is a mess 18:19:56 I actually like opening a file in my sxe buffer. But that could very well be 'caused by not having a thing that just puts a group of functions in my buffer. 18:20:04 _3b: Hey that's a very neat idea this really. 18:20:08 schme_: I'm hesitant to accept this. What is actually done at S-expression evaluations time? Is the function looked up with (function ...) or similar? Can it be overridden? 18:20:12 tru64 was my fav commercial unix, for a long time. 18:20:13 <_3b> schme_: haven't decided on a good workflow, something like M-. that instead of switching files, just puts the function you want into the buffer, or whatever 18:20:15 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:20:39 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ffc4546e924bfc30] has joined #lisp 18:20:40 _3b: Ya. I imagine grouping functions together too, so one could grab a whole bunch at a time. 18:20:46 <_3b> schme_: you could have also have multiple views, for example grouping files by purpose, without worryting about load order 18:20:46 p_l: ah, well, they abandoned everything for itanium 18:20:49 _3b: (user defined groups of course) 18:20:52 (much good it did them) 18:20:58 <_3b> schme_: or looking at the dependency graph, etc 18:21:03 Ya very nice :) 18:21:05 even the tandem nonstop things! 18:21:20 meingbg: I'm very not sure. :) 18:21:33 meingbg: But I suppose you could redefine eval ;) 18:21:39 schme_: OK, thx anyways! 18:21:48 rsynnott: Rather "managed to fuckup everything for itanium". But I guess Compaq is more to blame when it comes to what happened to Alpha, Tru64 and VMS 18:22:14 schme_: I guess I could. 18:22:14 dto annotated #70974 with "maybe my pattern is wrongt?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70974#2 18:22:41 durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has joined #lisp 18:22:42 _3b: I think this is a really sweet idea. :) 18:22:58 <_3b> schme_: yeah, just one that takes a lot of work :) 18:23:09 Yes.. 18:23:15 especially the autogeneration seems a pain. 18:23:45 rsynnott: Pity that we don't have any VMS/I64 CL implementation, though. 18:24:29 _3b: Though I think it'd be more suitable for use with CLIM than emacsen.. it seems to me that clickin' stuff and graphin 18:24:33 eeh 18:24:33 is easier there. 18:24:41 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 18:25:12 p_l: use the Java based CL (VMS has Java, not?) 18:25:12 <_3b> yeah, though seems like emacs is growing the ability to do graphics lately :) 18:25:15 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:23 I have no idea. 18:25:26 I use the other emacsen ;) 18:26:23 ehu: There is JVM on VMS, but let's say, JVM and VMS don't like each other 18:26:43 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:26:47 VMS is too different from Unix for JVM :) 18:26:52 _3b: It seems a quite interesting way to distribute software too. One doesn't really need to distribute the image, but just the dependency tree :) 18:26:52 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:58 morning 18:26:58 p_l: scieneer allegedly works on Itanium under a HPPA emulator 18:27:16 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:28:10 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:15 meingbg: I suppose it is actually the reader you should tweak. I'm guessing ( is some macro character :) 18:28:21 meingbg: and (lambda) some special case. 18:28:27 meingbg: But don't take my word for it at all :) 18:28:47 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:42 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:29:43 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 18:30:11 oudeis [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-110-42.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:32:37 meingbg: That's funny though. lambda is a macro :) 18:34:34 or not a macro. 18:34:35 great. 18:34:40 I shut up now ;) 18:35:31 <_3b> it is macro, but that isn't why it works in operator position 18:35:44 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has joined #lisp 18:36:06 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 18:37:52 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-100.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:40 <_3b> clhs 3.1.2.1.2 18:38:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abab.htm 18:39:13 <_3b> ^^ explains how conses are evaluated, car must be either a symbol, or a lambda expression 18:41:15 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 18:41:51 schme_: "one doesn't need to distribute the image, but just the dependency tree" <-- do you mean specializing the language runtime to deliver just parts of the language used by the application? isn't that what "tree shaking" is? 18:41:57 moisodin [n=fuckyou@59.92.143.222] has joined #lisp 18:43:11 <_3b> hmm, yeah, i guess tree shaking is a related concept (or at least needs to know similar things about the code) 18:43:20 -!- bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:43:30 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:43:46 53CKZ 18:43:55 bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:35 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-117-173.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:10 chandler, herep 18:46:58 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 18:47:27 rsynnott: HPPA emular on itanium? aren't they similar enough to make binary translation preferable? 18:47:36 emulator 18:47:36 fusss: I have no idea what tree shaking is. 18:47:50 fusss: never heard that term. 18:48:12 Anyway. I'm off to bed. It's getting late in the CET :) 'night lispers 18:49:22 schme_: it's just partial-evaluation for people who aren't theorists :-P basically linking a program against the runtime library, but only those parts of the runtime it actually uses. 18:50:06 if you never use bignum support, when you compile your app for delivery there will be no bignums in the runtime you ship with your app 18:51:07 fusss: They are different enough 18:51:50 Itanic is a VLIW, while HP-PA is a load-store arch. with a lot of instructions 18:51:59 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-113-183.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:15 p_l: you're right. but the itanic was designed by the same people, it ran HPUX first, and the bloody thing killed the cleaner HPPA 18:53:40 fusss: That's only because HP has been toying with the concept since around 1990 18:54:07 Intel jumped on the bandwagon with their P7 much later 18:54:54 and helped kill the architecture when it still had a chance 18:55:33 otoh, it's questionable if it had a chance without Compaq being intel's dog 18:55:36 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:19 yep. Intel was pushing the itanic like crack. i played with it when it cost $7k, thanks to Progeny (debIan's now defunct linux vendor) 18:56:54 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:56:57 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:56:57 I heard that total IA64 sales nowadays is below <1k a year 18:57:11 that sounds a little low 18:57:16 but they're certainly not impressive 18:57:38 they're still pushing it quite hard 18:57:46 Sun had been pushing hard, and AMD struck them real hard 18:57:58 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-106-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:10 cpape` [n=user@p5484CFA2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:16 funny thing how similar amd64 and alpha ev7z are ... :> 18:59:20 Stupid question: If I take a post parameter using Hunchentoot, how do I tell if it's blank? I've tried (if (not parameter-example) ... ) which works if the parameter wasn't sent but doesn't work if it's been sent but is empty. 18:59:37 p_l: amd got a big group from DEC when it died. 18:59:45 Has anyone made the oft-cited "sufficiently smart compiler" for Itanic such that it actually performs well? :p 18:59:46 i would happily give away bunch of itanic books to anyone hacking on a lisp compiler 19:00:18 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 19:00:19 Fade: I know. It's just that I find it funny how Opteron's appearance kicked Intel, using exactly what was scrapped in order to give Itanium more market share :) 19:00:38 kzar: LENGTH? :-D 19:00:40 foom: for Lisp, or anything? 19:01:17 anything 19:01:34 when I was at Legato we went down to DEC just before they died, and a group of their processor engineers laid out their roadmap. 19:01:42 i wish it had happened. 19:01:45 foom: "Performs well" in terms of floating point: yes. About integer performance: Not so much. 19:01:58 ev7 is still a sweet cpu by today's standards. 19:01:59 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-113-183.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:02 fusss: If I could get a machine with IA64 and enough funding to pay my rent and food, I'd do it :) 19:02:05 fusss: OH bugger, yea that did it... I tried that earlier and it didn't work but I realised it's because I did it wrong. I thought it was maybe some crazy exception that would stop that working 19:02:20 fusss: Sorry for such a stupid question 19:02:33 p_l: You forgot the funding for the power bill. ;-) 19:02:40 ths: Included in my rent 19:02:45 kzar: you never know if a question is stupid until you ask, and you're told so :-P 19:02:49 thats why I pay 460 GBP a month 19:03:13 fusss: Heh, yea true I guess although I was thinking "Man this is a stupid question" as I typed it 19:04:20 p_l, do you pay council tax? 19:04:27 jpcooper: Nope, I'm a student 19:04:32 and you pay 460? 19:04:42 I pay at most 330 at the moment, but we have no heating on :) 19:05:10 though of course you're probably living in a much nicer place than Glasgow 19:05:13 jpcooper: I have to pay in 8 monthly installments for my 10 month stay 19:05:18 jpcooper: Aberdeen 19:05:21 aah 19:05:38 ultimate weirditude... i have a double-barrel pipe(2) stream so that what i write to one end comes out of the other and vice versa. it's a complex thing, but it works when tested separately. but there's one spot in my program where anything i write to it gets written twice. or read twice on the other end, i can't tell. if i don't write anything to it and just do a force-output, nothing comes out, so it's not like something was already 19:05:57 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-113-183.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:07 this can't have to do with buffering or thread-insafety, right? 19:06:22 jpcooper: The problem is, I'm gonna be evicted withing 4 days and I don't have money to pay :D 19:06:40 koning_robot: lisppaste a small skeleton 19:08:05 i've been trying to reproduce it in small, but as i said, it works when tested separately.. 19:08:29 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-117-173.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:09:43 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.65] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:09:48 are you sure you're not writing twice? 19:09:58 and is there any forking involved anywhere? 19:10:09 milanj [n=milan@212.200.192.36] has joined #lisp 19:10:42 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-34.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:54 there's threading, but only one thread writes to the stream, and only one thread reads from it. and according to debug messages, it only prints it once, but it comes out twice on the other end 19:11:09 Good evening. 19:11:14 I'm looking for the emacs mode that Marco Barringer used in his movie, the one to automaticly close parentheses. Can anyone help? 19:11:17 ths: i'm sure it'll be awesome as soon as someone actually gets around to writing the SSC. :) 19:11:26 Cel, paredit 19:11:36 it sounds like he was using paredit 19:11:39 jpcooper: thanks 19:11:43 evening beach 19:12:06 paredit works with slime? 19:12:14 Actually, he wasn't using paredit in that movie, but paredit will do what his mode was doing and more. 19:12:20 fusss, yes, you just turn set it to open with slime-mode 19:12:29 (I didn't write paredit until a week after he released that movie.) 19:12:40 sweet 19:12:45 fusss, yes, they don't interfere for the most part. 19:13:15 Riastradh: was checking on your scheme slime for MIT scheme, it says it's outdated. what would you recommend? 19:13:24 My SLIME for MIT Scheme? 19:14:24 fusss: there's a slime contrib for MIT scheme 19:14:58 Riastradh: i thought it was you. never mind. 19:15:02 oh cool, gentoo has an ebuild for paredit 19:15:27 -!- cpape [n=user@p5484F860.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:15:58 I have a question re: surfing source code. I know that M-. and M-, allow this in Slime. However, when I do this on a method name, I get sent to the defgeneric rather than the relevant defmethod. 19:16:25 Is there any way to go to the relevant defmethod, perhaps through an emacs command that's parameterized by object type names? 19:16:39 Riastradh: your nickname is very close to someone else's real name here :-P 19:17:15 fusss, to Mr Spiagga? I didn't know he had written anything for MIT Scheme. 19:17:38 no, Robert of Bordeaux :-P 19:18:11 milanj- [n=milan@77.46.251.157] has joined #lisp 19:18:15 bah, please ignore 19:18:17 bah, completely different 19:18:25 yeah :-D 19:18:28 mchurch: On SBCL, M-. on a generic function will list the generic function as well as its methods. 19:18:28 Yes, that's Mr Spiagga, also known as Mr Beach (in English), or Mr Plage (in French), or Robert Strandh of the University of Bordeaux. 19:18:44 Riastradh: "spiaggia" please. 19:18:47 -!- phao [n=phao@20158133062.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:18:49 OK. 19:19:07 the hamming distance, close enough for osmosis i say 19:19:21 (Yes, you're not the first to observe the similarity, fusss.) 19:19:30 fusss: tell that to an Italian. 19:20:00 milan [n=milan@93.86.59.108] has joined #lisp 19:21:02 It's like telling an anglophone that "ship" and "shit" are close. 19:21:28 Also, the `dh' in `Strandh' is pronounced, if I'm not mistaken. 19:21:46 Riastradh: not the `h'. 19:21:51 Well, yes. 19:22:03 it's a rather soft d 19:22:12 It's more than a silent `d', though! 19:22:45 we don't have many silent consonants in Swedish. 19:23:10 tic: you don't? 19:23:15 Hrm. In that sense. Some sound different than you'd think though. 19:23:15 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.192.36] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:23:19 s/that/some 19:23:45 beach, you know what? forget what I just said. :) 19:23:52 tic: OK :) 19:24:20 tic: ('cause there are plenty) 19:24:51 ehu: Are you here? 19:24:52 beach, (I meant in endings) 19:25:09 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:25:34 *beach* thinks every lingustic group would like to think that their language is "spelled as it is pronounced" and vice-versa. And pretty much everyone is wrong. 19:25:39 fusss, anyway, you were probably thinking of SLIME48. Which, incidentally, still works perfectly well. It just doesn't work with current SLIME from CVS or current Scheme48. 19:25:50 beach: english speakers don't. 19:26:00 Riastradh: that must be it! 19:26:15 kreuter: that's a possible exception, yes. 19:26:20 beach, there are languages in which that is more the case than in others. For example, compare French and Russian. 19:26:54 a Slovak friend thought it was exceedingly amusing that Americans have spelling competitions. 19:27:23 Riastradh: I don't know Russian, but French is extreme. 19:27:54 There is very little phonemic information omitted from the spelling of Russian words (and similarly for related slavic languages). 19:27:59 ehu: What happened to your endeavors to take up maintainship of ansi-tests? 19:28:12 sawahili and the two bahasas have very straightforward spelling 19:28:43 tic: OK, so what about anything that ends in `rs', like "fors", "vers", etc. 19:29:04 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.2] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:29:09 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.2] has joined #lisp 19:29:14 tic: I am afraid you have to retract that one too. 19:29:20 Accent is omitted, unaccented `o' is (in some regions) pronounced like unaccented `a', and `e' is pronounced sometimes as `ye' and sometimes as `yo' (transliterated into English). Other than that, most pronunciation can be derived directly and compositionally from the spelling of Russian words. 19:29:28 lisp [n=r00t@189.107.137.13] has joined #lisp 19:29:41 timjstewart [n=tims@216.148.96.254] has joined #lisp 19:30:15 Riastradh: Russian is also unusual (or so I have been told) that there are almost no dialects. 19:30:16 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 19:30:18 Whether the map from spelling to pronunciation is compositional is the most salient distinction between French and Russian in this respect, I think. 19:30:33 Modius [n=Modius@99.179.100.156] has joined #lisp 19:31:48 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:59 I've never been to Russia, let alone to different regions thereof, so I can't speak about dialects -- although the impression I get is that some Russians would consider `other languages' such as Ukrainian to be merely dialects of Russian. Doubtless, though, this touches more political sensibilities than linguistic... 19:32:11 (Sensibilities? Sensitivities? Something like that.) 19:32:14 -!- timjstewart [n=tims@216.148.96.254] has left #lisp 19:32:30 lack of dialects in russian but due to people's economic and cultural dependence on moscow 19:32:44 Sorry, this is totally unrelated to Lisp; all I can claim is that I'm talking about the structure and interpretation of natural languages... 19:32:45 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.245.209] has joined #lisp 19:33:19 tcr: am now 19:33:27 A lot of French colleages are currently reading Swedish crime-novels (I take it the Swedes are doing with crime novels what they did with pop music a couple of decades ago), and it is interesting to hear how they pronounce names of cities like Göteborg. 19:34:08 I'm trying to embbed lisp as the scripting language for my application. May any of you guys provide me good reference about doing it? My program is being written in C++. 19:35:33 When they pronounce it like "G-öt-bor-g", I ask them if they would object to my pronouncing Marseille as "Masche-ille" which would be a reasonable way for a close-to-the-capital Swede to prounounce it. 19:36:11 lisp, you might want to look at ecl 19:36:14 lisp: rewrite your application in Lisp and most of your problems will go away. 19:38:08 lisp: doing so would have the additional advantages of making your application faster and/or more modular. 19:38:38 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.97] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:44 beach: right, thanks for the advice. I like xristos suggestion, though :-) 19:39:15 lisp: glad I could be of assitance. 19:40:38 the proper way to "scipt" C++ is put whatever you need from it in a shared library and call that from Lisp 19:41:21 -!- milanj- [n=milan@77.46.251.157] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:41:23 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslco024.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:41:31 i.e. keep the application loop in the more powerful language 19:41:42 fusss it might require writing proxy functions in C 19:42:01 which is messy 19:42:03 that's usually way to do it. verazzano does C++ but i never tried it. 19:42:48 fusss: I don't think it does C++ 19:42:52 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:43:05 oh 19:47:35 beach, I'm very bad at expressing myself. Apologies. What I meant was that a consonant or wovel sound at the end of words, in Swedish, is never(?) dropped. That doesn't conflict with vers, göteborg, mölndal, etc. 19:52:28 tic: You are fine. It is just that people think things about their native language that turn out not to be true. 19:53:16 imo, i think it's not so helpful to bolt a lisp onto a "finished" application as a scripting language. too much headache for little benefit. better to collect the libraries you're gonna need, write the FIIs, and start programming in lisp in a fraction of the time. the asker might be better off with guile or something. 19:53:30 s/FIIs/FFIs/ 19:54:48 Mynch [i=Mynch@ns150a.studby.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 19:55:01 tic: how do you explain that "Ödeshög" in traditional local dialect is pronounced "ö-schö"? 19:55:58 tic: or that "Ystad" is pronounced "Y-sta"? 19:56:08 beach, hah, you got me! (and now that you mention it: Karlsta, Ysta, etc.) 19:56:21 tic: exactly! 19:56:49 beach, although! it is /still correct/ to pronounce the -d! That would not be the case in many French words, I believe? 19:57:07 -!- moisodin [n=fuckyou@59.92.143.222] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:57:44 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:58:32 tic: I wish you had read some of the books I had. In one of them, the theory is that in countries where the commerce-class became powerful (like Sweden), it became popular to pronounce things the way they were written. 19:58:49 (because this was thought to be upper-class) 19:59:12 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:59:59 Borat^ [n=cracked@acces1358.res.insa-lyon.fr] has joined #lisp 20:00:00 but in places where the upper class kept the power, like in Denmark, this was never the case, and the old way of having a totally different way of spelling and of pronouncing things, was kept. 20:00:56 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:03 beach, I figured it'd be the other way around? upper-class being more interested in being "strict," so to speak. Interesting. 20:01:13 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:01:13 tic: like, you might think that pronouncing the "g" ind "dig" might be "correct", but it's really a case of over-compensation. 20:01:34 tic: yes, very interesting. 20:01:39 -!- lisp [n=r00t@189.107.137.13] has left #lisp 20:03:10 tic: I recommend: "Världens dåligaste språk" by "Fredrik Lindström". 20:03:28 beach, and I also might not think that at all. ;) Hyper-correction also happens for dom => dem, even though it's used for both de (???) and dem (dativ). 20:03:45 beach & tic, how is all of this relevant to #lisp ? 20:03:46 beach, I need to get it some day. I saw his stand-up show last year, though! 20:03:49 xristos, sorry. 20:03:55 it gets kind of tedious sorting through all thenoise ;p 20:04:01 xristos: I am sorry as well. 20:05:11 <_3b> hmm, wonder how hard it would be to add more complicated lambda lists to my compiler 20:06:10 -!- Borat^ [n=cracked@acces1358.res.insa-lyon.fr] has left #lisp 20:11:24 gz [n=gz@209.6.18.72] has joined #lisp 20:14:24 what's your baseline complexity of lambda lists? 20:14:36 <_3b> what do you mean? 20:15:00 <_3b> currently i can only compile required arguments 20:15:00 the answer to the question depends on how complex the lambda lists you already support are 20:15:18 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:15:26 here's a small demo of my doubled print problem (just type some symbols on stdin): http://paste.lisp.org/display/70985 20:15:43 <_3b> the problem is more a question of how much work i want to do to translate avm2 behavior to lisp behavior 20:15:44 ok. for example keyword arguments are pretty easy once you have rest arguments 20:16:29 <_3b> keyword args would be parsed in the function, right? 20:16:46 right 20:17:44 really the complex part is having a calling convention that allows passing a variable number of arguments 20:18:01 <_3b> yeah, avm2 has a 'rest' option 20:18:18 <_3b> or an option to pass all args 20:18:37 <_3b> both are passed in arrays though, not sure if i should translate that to a list or not 20:19:03 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 20:19:10 <_3b> or try to do so lazily, or have a variant that doesn't for code that knows about it, or what 20:19:22 alec [n=alec@adsl-179-18-7.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:49 having rest arguments be explicitly exported as lists is one of the worse bits of cl 20:20:55 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:45 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:22:07 if arrays are more natural for the target platform, that seems like a perfectly fine thing to do 20:22:55 <_3b> main reason i'd like to expose them as lists is to be able to run more CL code, though i suppose i might be weighting that goal too heavily 20:23:26 fair enough 20:29:22 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:30:00 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 20:30:07 jsnell: i notice if i declare the inputs to * fixnums but not the output, it compiles as a call to generic-* 20:30:18 doesn't this perform unnecessary dispatch on the input arguments? 20:30:34 even if the output needs boxing, you don't need to test the input types, in this csae 20:31:37 Is there a better way to flatten a list of lists than doing (apply #'append lst)? 20:31:53 _3b: keep in mind that even though &rest argument are a list, they do have an upper limit on their length. they're not of indefinite length 20:32:04 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["“Screw the mobs/npcs - I'd like to see them use that kind of AI in the other players.”"] 20:32:49 <_3b> slava: is there an optimized fixnum*fixnum->bignum available? 20:34:26 <_3b> fusss: yeah, even for short arglists, it seems wasteful to convert it to a list (especially with possibly expensive lists :) 20:35:16 _3b: i think it's a good idea to invest in a nice cons representation on flash right now :-D no way around it, imo 20:35:45 <_3b> fusss: yeah, just not sure there is a better one than defining a class for it 20:36:33 hmm 20:37:09 <_3b> don't suppose you know how optional and rest args interact in actionscript3? 20:37:13 if this is about actionscript/ecmascript, i'd suggest using a two-element array 20:37:35 <_3b> koning_robot: that is another option, but harder to identify 20:37:36 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-168-33.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:37:45 i think that's the least inefficient way, anyway 20:38:51 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:03 minion: logs 20:39:04 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 20:40:17 slava: you're right, it does do an extra dispatch 20:41:59 I think it's just a matter of trying to control the number of vops that need to be written 20:42:45 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has quit [] 20:44:41 so i managed to reproduce my weird stream problem where things are either printed or read twice. it only happens most of the time, not all of the time... see http://paste.lisp.org/display/70985 20:45:44 _3b: optional arguments are not exactly absent, they just default to null 20:45:52 nil 20:46:01 null 20:46:17 Ah, sorry, you're not talking about CL? 20:46:24 <_3b> fusss: yeah, but what ends up in the rest array? 20:46:33 <_3b> gigamonkey: avm2 20:47:16 <_3b> i suppose i should just write a test and see 20:47:37 an avm2 method is of two types, +METHOD-NEED-ARGUMENTS+ or +method-has-optional+ 20:48:13 <_3b> need-rest or need-arguments, which are exclusive 20:48:21 <_3b> but optional doesn't say it is exclusive 20:48:25 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:49:45 i don't think they're exclusive 20:49:57 <_3b> i guess it fills optional first, and only puts it into rest if those fill up from the as3 docs 20:50:22 if a method has optional argument 20:50:34 argument_count only indicates the required arguments 20:50:45 sorry, make that param_count 20:51:17 and param_count+1 is a pointer to register that contains and array that has the optional arguments 20:51:33 the optional args default to null, if they're supplied 20:52:17 bah, eveything i described is for need_rest 20:52:27 has_optional is different 20:52:32 <_3b> right 20:52:50 GOT IT! 20:52:54 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:53:06 they're the EXACT same thing 20:53:20 I am worried about the absence of reactions ty my framebuffer backend. Are people saying: this is crap, especially if we will have to use that awful font of is? Or are the implications perhaps not clear? Or is it just a matter of the people caring being asleep? 20:53:26 except has_optional is just a basic container for the requested default values 20:53:48 c.f. (&ptional (foo "foo") (bar "bar")) vs (&optional foo bar) :-) 20:53:55 s/of is/of his/ 20:54:10 <_3b> beach: i might be interested at some point, once i get back to GL hacking, but currently focused elsewhere :) 20:54:32 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:54:37 _3b: fair enough! 20:54:55 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:54:58 -!- Jarv2 is now known as Jarvellis 20:55:12 has_optional is used ONLY if you provide your own default values. either way, need_rest flag is set on methods that take optional arguments. 20:55:43 <_3b> fusss: need_rest is only for ... (as3 equivalent of &rest) isn't it? 20:55:53 yes 20:56:06 *fusss* doesn't know actionscript, so he sticks to lispy analogies 20:56:32 I don't think i ever learned a C-like language. C works for me just fine, everywhere :-P 20:57:13 beach: I'm at least interested to read about the framebuffer backend... has it been linked? 20:59:01 tsuru: Linked? As in URL? I would ask you to be patient for another few day. This is *very* preliminary stuff. 21:03:05 <_3b> beach: with the framebuffer backend, one would just need to replace input handling, and be able to blit the buffer to run it on a different platform, right? 21:03:50 beach: so I'm going to guess the reactions (or lack thereof) you are refering to are from CLIM developers? 21:09:17 durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has joined #lisp 21:10:55 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:10:59 elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has joined #lisp 21:12:05 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 21:12:22 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 21:12:35 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:14:55 so.. apparently force-output is causing my bug... though i can't figure out how... doing a force-output or finish-output after every print shouldn't hurt, right? i wonder if maybe the two threads are flushing the same buffer at the same time and that causes the trouble... shouldn't happen though 21:15:14 athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 21:15:54 lispm [n=joswig@g224121174.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:16:36 in lispbuilder-sdl, how do I get the main sdl loop to quit? 21:16:47 (queue-quit-event) is not working 21:17:50 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5229.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:18:01 <_3b> (sdl:push-quit-event) ? 21:18:07 er, yes that's right 21:18:38 after calling that, the games's main loop continues to accept keystrokes 21:18:40 which it shouldn't 21:19:28 <_3b> are you handling the quit event at all? 21:19:44 (sdl:with-events () 21:19:44 (:quit-event () t) 21:19:44 ... 21:19:49 maybe that's the problem 21:20:03 <_3b> looks like what i have 21:20:30 <_3b> try printing something out before returning t, see if it gets called at all? 21:20:37 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:03 <_3b> (and you aren't accidentally calling with-events again in a loop or anything, right?) 21:21:17 no 21:21:19 ah it works now 21:21:53 i think i had a stale fasl 21:22:32 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:39 is it reasonable to expect (format nil "~v,'0D" x y) to return a string of length at least X that can be READ back in as Y? 21:26:05 -!- alec [n=alec@adsl-179-18-7.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:27:18 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:27:24 _3b: wanna see what i'm doing? 21:27:25 <_3b> kreuter: sounds reasonable 21:27:40 _3b: try it with a negative Y. 21:27:59 <_3b> kreuter: doesn't seem to be working with positive y for me :/ 21:28:22 really? what implementation? 21:28:31 _3b: http://dto.mamalala.org/rlx-menu.ogv 21:28:44 <_3b> sbcl win32 1.0.19 21:28:47 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:52 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:59 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:09 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslco024.osnanet.de] has quit [] 21:29:21 <_3b> (format nil "~v,'0D" 20 1.2345) -> "1.2345" 21:29:42 er, that's undefined behavior 21:29:51 the argument to ~D should be an integer. 21:29:59 <_3b> ah, oops :) 21:30:07 sorry, I didn't mention that. 21:30:09 <_3b> yeah, that works better :) 21:30:12 I think it's actually defined to do just that 21:30:31 <_3b> nah, i even looked at the ~d page, my fault for not actually reading it :) 21:30:37 at least I have a vague recollection of one of those format characters have a phrase like "if it's not an integer is formatted like ~somethingelse" 21:31:22 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:36 <_3b> foom: ~A, base 10 21:31:37 foom: ~F with base x0a? 21:31:42 Ah 21:32:43 <_3b> kreuter: behavior for negative seems to fit the spec, not very useful in that case though 21:33:04 right. 21:33:14 C printf is so much better. :) 21:33:34 I think others have figured out that the spec underdetermines the interactions between the arguments to the integer controls. 21:33:34 where is "v"'s behaviour described (to get mincol from an arg)? 21:33:48 <_3b> clhs 22.3 21:33:48 clhs 22.3 21:33:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 21:33:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 21:34:01 -!- bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-174-7.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 21:34:04 heh 21:34:06 <_3b> paragraph before the figure 21:34:29 why do you even have the v in there 21:34:42 in my question? 21:34:44 simpler example is just (format nil "~5,'0d" -10) 21:34:44 <_3b> to decide field width at runtime? 21:34:48 ah i see, thanks 21:34:55 yeah, basically. 21:35:50 <_3b> or (format nil "~5,'0@D" 1) even 21:36:04 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:17 mattrepl- [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-143-22.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:20 oh, right, atsign. 21:36:39 IMO the ability to specify an arbitrary padding character was a big mistake. 21:36:57 it's occasionally what you want. 21:36:57 It's already crazy syntax ('0, really?) 21:37:02 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 21:37:34 <_3b> yeah, syntax could have been nicer 21:37:56 well, go nag Dan Weinreb, I guess. 21:39:06 -!- kruth [n=chatzill@kruth.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 21:39:08 <_3b> dto: interesting 21:39:27 So basically, format, for all its glory, has no actual ability to do 0 padding. Great. :) 21:39:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:40:12 <_3b> i'm sure the ability to pad before the sign was important to some business types or something at some point 21:40:29 I don't think it's required to behave as SBCL's implementation behaves. 21:40:34 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:40:36 every implementation behaves like sbcl 21:40:58 rather: ccl, cmucl, sbcl, and allegro do. 21:41:05 okay. I don't think it's required to behave as the equivalence class of implementations that behave like SBCL behave. 21:41:38 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:20 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:34 or maybe it is. dunno 21:42:52 <_3b> do the examples in 22.3.2.1 (~r) make any sense? 21:43:18 the third one is missing a quote character before the zero. 21:43:38 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-154.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:43:40 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 21:43:40 <_3b> ah, never mind, i missed a sentence in the description 21:43:57 even the spec writers couldn't get the syntax right. I like it. >:) 21:43:58 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:43:59 <_3b> i was mostly wondering about the fact that only 1 used ~r though 21:44:10 foom: you're on a tear today, aren't you? 21:44:59 it's also conceivable that that example worked on some old MacLisp or LispM or something. 21:45:43 <_3b> hmm, sbcl doesn't agree on that example, even with the missing ' ? 21:45:56 http://www.cliki.net/Issue%20FORMAT-RADIX-COMMACHAR 21:46:10 my sbcl build stop with "*** No rule to make target `grovel-headers'. Stop." 21:46:12 see that about the interaction (if any) between the commachar and the padchar. 21:46:14 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-106-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:46:22 kami-: what version? 21:46:45 git head, pulled 2 days ago. building on ubuntu 32 bit. 21:47:52 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:57 Aah: and I have warnings about future modification times. I remember I had such a problem before. 21:48:02 I like the proposal in that cliki issue: 21:48:02 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.187.231] has joined #lisp 21:48:06 allow 0 as a pad "char" 21:48:36 I guess that would suffice. 21:48:44 it would be a compatible extension 21:49:25 dcrawford: hi 21:49:26 '0 could do what it does today, and 0 could do the thing that everyone wants it to. :) 21:49:29 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:49:29 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 21:49:32 attila_lendvai [n=ati@131.31ec54.tvnetwork.hu] has joined #lisp 21:51:02 chandler, nvm 21:52:21 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:58 -!- mattrepl- [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-143-22.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:56:14 No, the timestamp problem was about asdf. 21:56:21 No rule to make target 'grovel-headers' seems to be something else. 21:56:47 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@144.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 21:57:23 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:58:20 http://changelog.complete.org/archives/825-if-programming-languages-were-christmas-carols 21:59:14 thestarslookdown [n=thestars@128-193-143-18.public.oregonstate.edu] has joined #lisp 22:01:44 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:20 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:23 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:04:47 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.158] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:58 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:19 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:31 (defun 0d (stream value &optional atp colp w padc) (format stream "~:[~;-~]~v,vD" (minusp value) (if (minusp value) (1- w) w) padc (abs value))) 22:09:33 (format nil "~6,'0/0d/" -100) => "-00100" 22:13:54 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 22:15:40 Using the loop macro how would I loop through the items in a list backwards? 22:15:56 use `reverse' 22:16:43 adeht: Cheers 22:16:56 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:17:25 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:18:35 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 22:21:32 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:54 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@94.157.166.220] has joined #lisp 22:23:14 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:24:18 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:06 adeht: how about (loop :for n to (length list) :for i = (car (last list n)) :when i :collect i) :) 22:26:27 puchacz_ [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:27:07 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:27:40 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:27:49 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:07 drewc: why collect when you can append (list i) 22:30:09 ;) 22:30:22 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:17 adeht: ooh! that's even better! :) 22:31:21 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit ["Smile! "] 22:34:30 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 22:35:16 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 22:36:19 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:37:48 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 22:40:04 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:42:13 -!- _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 22:43:45 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@94.157.166.220] has quit [Success] 22:47:08 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.204.42] has joined #lisp 22:47:15 _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 22:47:52 -!- _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:48:04 _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 22:48:34 If I exhaust the heap with crappy code but then fix the problem, how do I clear it up so I can carry on testing things? (Now each time I do something I get the error again even though the cause is fixed.) 22:49:43 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:52 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E5CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:50:04 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 22:50:10 do experiments like this inside a test package 22:50:15 and delete-package it afterwards 22:51:29 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:10 Hun: I did (delete-package :my-package-name) then re-ran all my code for that package but I'm still getting the heap error, did I miss something or is that what you meant? 22:53:44 that might usually be enough, unless the heap is really corrupted. what implementation do you use? 22:53:52 i don't see how deleting package will help with heap exhaustion 22:53:52 SBCL 22:54:24 i thought it might if the heap is primarily used by the symbols of that package 22:54:59 Hun: try figuring out how many symbols that'd be! :) 22:55:04 two recommendations please: something to download an xml file through http and something to parse it 22:55:21 cYmen: drakma and cxml, perhaps. 22:55:27 I did a loop the wrong way around so it never ended. During each iteration it called (htm :b "example") 22:57:29 luis: Thank you. I will check those out. 23:03:13 -!- thestarslookdown [n=thestars@128-193-143-18.public.oregonstate.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:03:46 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ffc4546e924bfc30] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 23:04:55 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224121174.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 23:05:33 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 23:06:28 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:51 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 23:06:53 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF6B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:07:24 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 23:08:17 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:49 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:41 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:54 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 23:10:23 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:10:32 -!- drewc is now known as Chousuka 23:10:53 -!- Chousuka is now known as drewc 23:11:12 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:43 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:48 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 23:15:03 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:59 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:18 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-110-42.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:19:25 Kickaha [n=jadawin@117.62.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:19:38 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:19:48 good night. 23:19:49 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has left #lisp 23:20:11 Damn computer crashed due to a loose IDE cable 23:20:16 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:20:27 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:20:29 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:44 At least Linux is elegant when it crashes, Amarok finished playing my song 23:21:26 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:33 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 23:21:36 -!- Kickaha [n=jadawin@117.62.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 23:22:21 Kickaha [n=user@117.62.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:22:56 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 23:24:45 Anyone have some interesting, short bits of lisp code? 23:25:13 Quadrescence: What should it do? 23:25:37 Nothing in particular. I just seek some "inspiration". :) 23:25:59 Quadrescence: grab a lisp book, perhaps? 23:26:13 luis: I have one. 23:26:20 just one ? 23:26:23 read it, or get another one. 23:26:32 (and then read it) 23:27:06 but careful with *read-eval* when reading 23:27:17 Are you implying there are "interesting, short bits of lisp code" an a given book? 23:27:29 Quadrescence: of course! 23:27:51 I just wanted to see some interesting pieces of code that do...something. I just saw a perl 3-liner sudoku solver. 23:28:13 Quadrescence: see PAIP, PCL, for instance. 23:28:22 isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:26 luis: Those are the two I have available to me. 23:28:35 Quadrescence: cool, did you read them? 23:28:39 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:51 kzar pasted "prompt-read" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70995 23:29:06 luis: I didn't read either of them in their entirety, admittedly. 23:29:15 But that doesn't mean I'm not finished with them. :) 23:29:16 Quadrescence: That's kind of cool, it takes the prompt-read from PCL (I think) and I added a macro so that you can use format's cleverness 23:29:21 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 23:29:30 Quadrescence: Pretty simple but I liked it 23:29:50 Where did my emacs go now. 23:31:58 kzar: not a particularly good example because prompt-read should probably be a function. 23:32:08 Quadrescence: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/ 23:32:24 luis: How come? 23:32:27 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-113-183.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:12 locklace: Thanks for the link. :) 23:33:40 kzar: (defun prompt-read (prompt &rest variables) (prompt-read-helper (format nil "~?" prompt variables))) 23:35:27 luis: Oh right, :( 23:35:32 kzar: That is a nice little piece of code, and nice correction, luis. 23:36:56 Quadrescence: PAIP gets more interesting towards the end, btw. 23:37:26 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:37 luis: I like all I've read so far. And its applications have been particularly interesting, and the approach overall. 23:38:33 Quadrescence: one book I recently discovered is SICM. It has some quite interesting Scheme code. 23:38:36 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:11 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:24 luis: What's the full name? 23:43:03 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:07 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:43:12 Quadrescence: Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics 23:43:15 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:43:27 Oh, that sounds interesting. :D 23:44:00 hi everyone 23:46:11 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:47:18 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.204.42] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:49:43 -!- milan [n=milan@93.86.59.108] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:50:31 -!- puchacz_ [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:51:40 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:52:06 -!- lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:52:12 wow, that austrian lisp job sounds interesting. I wonder who the people behind it are 23:52:17 ...and what lisp they use (-: 23:52:22 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:41 (that one: http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=101&dockey=xml/2/a/2a942ed906a0d9f2e70e57597572cdf9@endecaindex&c=1&source=20) 23:53:24 cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:54:30 This is very interesting: (loop for (a b) in '((x 1) (y 2) (z 3)) collect (list b a) ) 23:54:31 :D 23:54:52 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:55:03 Quadrescence: do you know On Lisp? 23:55:09 luis: No 23:55:20 Quadrescence: get that, then. 23:55:43 http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html 23:55:54 Already on my desktop. ;) 23:57:25 -!- Kickaha [n=user@117.62.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:33 Quadrescence: i find (mapcar 'reverse '((x 1) (y 2) (z 3))) more interesting 23:57:54 Kickaha [n=user@117.62.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:59:01 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp