00:01:00 it calls the compiler at runtime ??? 00:01:02 wow 00:01:12 that really puts in a crimp in your frame rate. 00:01:13 under what circumstances ? 00:01:59 when it doesn't have enough type information to do... something. 00:02:17 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E61B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:02:20 That's not actually what happens. 00:02:36 And it's perfectly fair to blame cl-sdl for missing an inline declaration. 00:02:51 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-58-90.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:02:54 The actual case is that the compiler has to box the pointer to the alien structure. 00:03:18 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.29] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:23 That's what the "forced to do runtime 00:03:30 allocation of alien-value structure" message is about. 00:03:44 (And, yes, the line-break there is apparently sacrosanct for some reason.) 00:05:09 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless06.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:07:17 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.109.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:24 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:07:30 -!- neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has quit ["Abandonando"] 00:08:29 so reading http://blogs.azulsystems.com/cliff/2008/11/a-brief-conversation-with-david-moon.html makes me wish I could try clojure on one of these things (: 00:09:11 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:09:52 -!- dv___ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Client Quit] 00:10:25 ah, yep, that was an interesting article 00:11:00 heard vaguely of azul a while back, but hadn't realised it was that impressive 00:11:39 antifuchs: You know that Rich Hickey did just that, right? 00:12:03 But yeah, impressive-sounding hardware, and I wish we could do more of that stuff on stock PC systems. 00:12:07 nyef: no, I didn't. sounds like good things are happening (: 00:12:26 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:37 let's all start lobbying Intel :D 00:13:39 nyef: once you have a working infrastructure, distributing work isn't *too* much work (assuming the task is well adapted). 00:15:18 One thing I noticed was the use of what amounts to LispM-style type tags, but for user classes as well. 00:17:51 nyef: did he report results? 00:18:10 hd_ [n=hd_@253.176.233.220.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:18:13 I wonder will they be able to cope with the java 7 dynamic language aid stuff without hardware changes 00:18:21 yep, that was quite clever 00:18:35 but might tie them slightly to java-style classes, perhaps 00:19:42 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:08 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:19 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:20:44 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-053-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:10 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:48 this article mentions clojure on azul http://blogs.azulsystems.com/cliff/2008/09/jvm-language-su.html 00:22:37 sweet. I should read their blog (: 00:23:14 rsynnott: He mentioned it during his presentation in Cambridge, MA earlier this year. 00:25:30 yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has joined #lisp 00:27:46 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:28:24 mib_ra9f1091 [i=470aa6e2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-96b59f9363ab3d0f] has joined #lisp 00:31:11 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-059-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:49 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit ["emacs maintenance"] 00:32:05 20 gig a second; wow! 00:32:43 tc-rucho: I was, I am 00:33:01 kpreid: hey 00:33:12 how ya been? (: 00:33:19 -!- cpape` [n=user@p5484C361.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:33:44 I finished the extension for CL:DIRECTORY :D 00:33:52 good! 00:33:59 made the patch for latest cvs source 00:34:02 :D 00:34:13 already sent it to the sbcl-devel mail list 00:34:32 the first time I sent the patch was for sbcl 1.0.14 00:34:42 and it was not unified (didn't know about that option) 00:35:07 I was advised to revert an uncessary modification to PROBE-FILE 00:35:25 and to use :RESOLVE-SYMLINKS instead of :TRUENAMES 00:35:47 I've fixed those things that were trivial, and made a patch for the cvs source 00:35:53 just sent it today 00:35:59 mek||malloc1 [n=mek@c-76-19-92-55.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:31 kpreid: I wanted to tell you this since it was you who suggested me modding the CL:DIRECTORY 00:36:35 (: 00:37:07 (defun YOURMOM (weight) (SCALE weight)) => YOURMOM broke SCALE at eval. 00:37:14 :o( 00:37:33 tc-rucho: I really don't have the time to think about this today, but I'm happy that you're making progress 00:38:13 kpreid: yes, thanks for helping me with the initial steps, pointing me to documentation and giving me some pieces of advice, I appreciate them (: 00:38:25 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:39:01 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:34 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:39:41 kpreid: well, since you seem to be busy I won't bother you anymore, just wanted to tell you that. (: 00:41:26 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:55 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:33 _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:11 Cel` [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 00:55:22 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:19 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 00:56:27 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-10-136.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:32 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:56:58 "And even in CLOS it's hard to implement the Properties Pattern." 00:57:15 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-10-136.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:57:27 Care to elaborate for those ignoramuses among us what the `Properties Pattern' is? 00:58:23 -!- mib_ra9f1091 [i=470aa6e2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-96b59f9363ab3d0f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 00:59:08 dunno, ask steve yegge. The ability to hang random properties on random objects williy-nilly, I guess. I haven't moved on to http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/10/universal-design-pattern.html yet. 00:59:48 (defclass property-mixin () ((properties ...)))? 01:00:07 apparently that's not an acceptable solution 01:00:16 (defparameter *foo-property* (make-hash-table :weak :key)) (: 01:00:28 The weak hash table would have been my next suggestion. 01:00:49 So much state. 01:00:50 Ahh. 01:01:13 deximer [n=deximer@pool-129-44-186-169.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:55 Hrm... No gitweb on clnet? 01:01:57 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:43 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:43 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:03:44 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 01:03:46 *hefner* decides not to read steve yegge in the future 01:04:10 ecuzzill [n=ecuzzill@c-24-131-19-37.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:27 I decided not to read him when I found, several pages into one of his posts, that I could have finished the Bhagavad-Gita in less time than the post I was reading. 01:07:11 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:07:24 VityokOr` [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 01:07:33 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:07:48 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:29 that's the truth. 01:09:24 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:10:07 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:10:39 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:11:55 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:15:21 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:38 one step closer :-) http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/alchemy.html 01:17:44 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 01:18:45 as for properties, one of the old versions of Scheme had properties on everything IIRC 01:19:38 there's probably some interesting connection to be made to "context-oriented programming" here 01:19:50 or would be, if I didn't think yegge was full of it 01:20:37 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:48 fusss: Funny that less than 24h ago I was thinking about getting CL on that... 01:20:59 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:21:03 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.82.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9b5/2008043010]"] 01:21:11 p_l: just thinking? I'm on it :-P 01:21:22 what are we talking about ? 01:21:35 Lisp on Adobe Flash 01:21:43 ahhh 01:21:58 fusss: What implementation? ECL? 01:22:03 actionscript is the new bytecode ? 01:22:08 -!- vorian [i=steve@freenode/staff/vorian] has quit ["oh noes!"] 01:22:17 Funny, I thought JVM was the new bytecode? 01:22:32 nyef: that's not very trendy of you. 01:22:42 Apparently not. 01:22:51 that's so 1995! 01:23:01 :) adobe recently showed some demo where they were compiling c/ c++ to actionscript bytecodes using llvm 01:23:15 Dawgmatix: I think that's what we're talking about. 01:23:16 Dawgmatix: That's probably a demo of alchemy :P 01:23:19 phf [n=user@c-69-140-35-170.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:29 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:23:44 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:19 p_l you are right. 01:24:33 its pretty nifty - dynamic languages are taking over the world 01:25:12 time to switch to haskell, if we're to maintain our air of moral and technical superiority, I guess. 01:25:28 haskellers seem fervent and excited 01:25:29 hefner: I think that would be contrary to what you just described 01:25:33 So. 01:25:39 Implement Haskell in LISP. 01:25:57 hush now. 01:26:11 please don't start a flamewar, ok? 01:26:17 I remeber riastradh had some kind of long post chain with soem guy who I forgot about the merits of strong typing, i think the other was an ML guy 01:26:23 wish I could find that 01:26:32 F# guy. please don't go there. 01:26:32 who'd have ever thought javascript would be the virtual machine of the future. 01:26:33 proably learn more about lisp ... 01:26:41 Hey, I love OCaml, too. 01:26:52 foom: Well, the JVM might be. 01:26:58 Seems like clojure is really taking off. 01:27:10 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 01:27:15 it could be the next arc! 01:27:28 hefner: hahaha 01:27:48 *p_l* uses both Lisp dialects, Haskell, Ruby, etc. Sometimes you simply want strong typing (and it's thanks to Haskell that I started to understand CLOS!) 01:28:03 mek||malloc1: the JVM doesn't really run in a browser. 01:28:09 theres typed scheme :) 01:28:27 foom: I didn't make that argument. :o) And I agree that is a downfall. 01:28:37 i must be a freak then. i can only program in one language; takes me a few days just to re-remember C sometimes. 01:28:41 can't implement real languages on the JVM 01:28:52 But there is no denying the attractiveness of running lisp code on a JVM and having access to java's expansive libraries. 01:29:06 also the portability :) 01:29:06 fusss: But you can remember C - that's a feat impossible with C++ and it's kind 01:29:15 Dawgmatix: un-portability? 01:29:21 rvirding: you can just as well as you can on actionscript: they basically implemented an x86 emulator. 01:29:28 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:29:40 java dork friend said groovy is the java thingy thats fast n easy now 01:29:43 rvirding: (although not really x86 in all its insane glory) 01:29:45 p_l: haskell is rather nice, it's fun to code in 01:29:57 Haskell is math. 01:29:59 It'se lovely. 01:30:00 well wherever the jvm goes - you can follow (a few months later with some patches and workarounds) 01:30:06 ok, not very efficiently then, and I was really after languages with tail-call optimisation 01:30:06 lol 01:30:10 And you have to love the lazy evaluation. 01:30:27 True, tail recursion with accumulators save your stack. 01:30:41 F# LOL I won't go there but the thread was then not against a real live functional programmer using ML or haskell or ocaml but against a microsoft guy? heh!! 01:30:47 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176023269.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:31:08 won't be able to haskell without it, not a usable haskell anyway 01:31:09 word stack always reminds me fo forth 01:31:12 of forth 01:31:16 I was wondering, is there something like lazy evaluation for lisp (like a standard way to do it) 01:31:17 F# is quite nice too 01:31:35 why does no one go on about ML? 01:31:36 madnificent: Sure but you'd be greenspunning. 01:31:40 Agreed? 01:31:50 madnificent: I'm not sure about standard, but there are ways to do it (or more like implement apropriate language inside lisp) 01:31:51 mek||malloc1: greenspunning?, what's that? 01:31:53 didn't ML win someone a turing award? 01:31:57 *mek||malloc1* gasps 01:32:14 Greenspun's tenth rule. 01:32:32 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-10-136.dip.osnanet.de] has quit ["http://github.com/bakkdoor/rswing/"] 01:32:45 p_l: it should be possible to create a new defun, which does it through a macro... shouldn't be too much code, I guess 01:32:47 Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp 01:32:49 (quoted) 01:33:06 too true, too true 01:33:09 mek||malloc1: ahh, now I remember the sweetness :D 01:33:24 mek||malloc1: lisp certainly has the best language-flamewar arguments :P 01:33:26 bighous1 [n=bighouse@bas1-montreal42-1177928353.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:33:31 mek||malloc1: The corollary is, of course, "including many common lisp implementations". 01:33:36 oddly phil greenspun used tcl and aolserver for arsdigita .... not lisp, and in his tcl tutorial constantly throws in jibes about how lisp is much smarter and the best, yet hes not using it! 01:33:44 nyef: considering it's built in C. 01:33:45 I'd agree. 01:33:46 ;o) 01:33:50 So now that Adobe has provided the tools to generate Actionscript from C code, what's the next step to using Lisp? Something like ECL? 01:33:55 -!- jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:03 mek||malloc1: Not all of them, and possibly not even most. 01:34:10 Axioplase [n=pierard@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 01:34:23 adobe can we sell it to like paulson for 50b bailout $$? 01:34:26 ahaas: Well, ECL and Chicken Scheme probably will work nearly out-of-the-box 01:34:29 *nyef* points to SBCL, CMUCL, the various LispMs, Movitz... 01:34:34 ahaas: lucky guess: clisp -> c -> ActionScript ? 01:34:38 so would bigloo :) 01:34:39 that would be pretty amusing: Lisp->C->AS3->AS VM->CPU 01:34:39 Every clips compiler I've seen, at least. 01:34:45 its a scheme but still ... 01:34:50 clisp* 01:34:59 Ha, CLIPS. Now there's a shitty production language. 01:35:01 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:35:08 foom: at least it would be more fun than coding AS 01:35:09 whats clips ? 01:35:17 mek||malloc1: Is it worse than MUMPS? 01:35:21 So, those compilers can generate C source code? 01:35:21 LOL 01:35:23 C language integrated production system 01:35:39 i totally have a link to some langauge called mumps wich was used at like 100 hospitals 01:35:46 I would like to remind the good crowd that most Flash types are represented by u30 pointers. most constants are in a constant pool that stays loaded throughout. 01:35:59 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:12 ahaas: ECL and Chicken Scheme compile to C as the intermediate language 01:36:30 p_l - so does bigloo 01:36:32 ECL uses Boehm GC, Chicken implements it's own 01:36:33 fusss: besides the fact that it is blasphemy to use ActionScript? 01:36:52 Dawgmatix: Chicken, MIT and PLT are the only ones I played with :) 01:37:00 mek||malloc [n=mek@c-76-19-92-55.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:07 that would be a bad move. more like a small Lisp DSL that gets compiled to ABC in a WITH-FLASH macro. hand that to sawmill and have it combined with an empty swf file. 01:37:45 p_l - bigloo is pretty cool - you can have unboxed typed arrays, can intermingle c and scheme code 01:37:51 fusss: that would be very nice for web-apps... perfect integration 01:37:59 and it has a really snazzy emacs development environment 01:38:12 did you see that you can use GDB with the C programs compiled to actionscript? 01:38:17 it would be nice to have basic AVM2 interpreter in Lisp interactive development. SWF generation feels like batch compilation and it sucks. 01:38:27 Dawgmatix: The same goes for chicken and ECL (in both you can actually use C snippets inside) 01:38:48 foom: Flash has a text-based debugger as well. not to mention a debug player. 01:38:58 foom: You can use C libraries straight using FLIs 01:39:19 *fusss* is excited about Alchemy just to see the code it generates, not to use it to compile Lisp 01:39:20 fusss: but then you'd be debugging the C VM 01:39:33 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:45 fusss: you get to debug the actual C code using GDB, running inside a flash player. :) 01:40:14 So, is it possible to use ECL to produce a C library, which Alchemy could then use to generate Actionscript? 01:40:17 you make it sound like i'm looking forward to debugging C code 01:40:41 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:41:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS 01:41:01 p_l : ive tried using ecl in the past but have always run into issues 01:41:11 ths [n=ths@X536c.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:16 though juanjo is one of the most responsive and helpful maintainers 01:41:36 ahaas: can you see your copy of avm2overview.pdf and check if it isn't missing page 105? I don't know what else it's missing. 01:41:47 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X72ca.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:41:52 http://hypertable.org/ check this out, wonder if lisp could do it better 01:41:52 M is so horrid. 01:41:58 It's like brainfusk. 01:42:08 really did you have to use it? 01:42:19 Which, brainfusk or M? 01:42:25 fusss: I'm not missing page 105 or any other pages that I know of. 01:42:50 I tried M for an simple assignment in school... 01:43:00 ahaas: i downloaded a second copy and i'm missing some opcodes. no big deal. 01:44:36 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 01:44:47 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:45:33 Be back later... Time to raid the #math channel. 01:45:44 Getting owned on the pumping lemma for CFGs -.- 01:45:45 Tah 01:45:48 *mek||malloc* is away 01:45:57 *hefner* can't wait. 01:46:59 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:48:55 Right, I'm gone for the evening. 01:48:57 G'night all. 01:49:39 G'night nyef 01:50:24 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:51:33 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:53:49 -!- mek||malloc1 [n=mek@c-76-19-92-55.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:12 -!- phf [n=user@c-69-140-35-170.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:56:04 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:43 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:58:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:59:38 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:02:23 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:18 bummer wanted to use climacs over emacs, but seems kinda unfinished.. 02:03:41 You are welcome to `finish' it! (Whatever that means exactly...) 02:04:00 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:08 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:06:29 EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has joined #lisp 02:07:59 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:24 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 02:17:47 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:18:20 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a82e1a2f5b45bcf5] has quit [Broken pipe] 02:19:31 CptPicard [n=picard@a91-152-246-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 02:20:04 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net/"] 02:26:14 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:27:13 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:02 spiffman [n=aagimene@adsl-75-19-158-196.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:48 hi all, i have a simple question 02:29:21 i need a function to create variables dynamically, i.e. (defvar (car firstlist) (car secondlist)) 02:30:13 crod [n=cmell@cb8a16-103.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:30:21 spiffman: (proclaim `(special ,my-symbol)) 02:31:16 kpreid: thanks, i'll try it out 02:32:23 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a16-103.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:32:53 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:33 note this is not compile-time 02:34:03 if the stuff you want to declare is compile-time then it's better to use a macro, like so: 02:34:34 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-56-108.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:34:49 (macrolet ((dummy () `(defvar ,(car firstlist) ...))) (dummy)) 02:34:51 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a16-103.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:34:55 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:35:08 then it's exactly like an ordinary defvar in your file, just computed 02:36:40 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-2791e355.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:37:33 ok cool yea i need compile-time variable names, i'll look up macrolet 02:40:17 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A24740.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:41:07 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:41:18 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 02:41:19 disumu [n=disumu@p57A24740.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:41 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:27 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:48:24 is the comma supposed to turn (car mylist) from atom to symbol? 02:48:37 spiffman: no.. why do you think you need to do this? 02:49:20 sorry, i started learning lisp two days ago... i just noticed kpreid used the comma both times where a function usually accepts a symbol 02:49:33 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 02:49:39 spiffman: what text are you using to learn lisp? 02:50:16 wilensky common lispcraft 02:50:35 spiffman: your understanding of the purpose is not far off, but the actual moving-parts are different 02:50:48 minion: tell spiffman about pcl. 02:50:50 spiffman: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 02:51:15 spiffman: the place to start for understanding is that , goes together with ` and you will usually find them discussed together 02:51:53 spiffman: pcl is probably the better of the two. Once you understand how to do what you're trying to do, you'll probably also understand why it's not the right thing to do :). 02:51:55 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 02:52:12 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:52:18 lol, thanks both of you, and drewc its part of a programming assignment 02:52:56 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:25 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@114-198-47-133.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:53:35 spiffman: oh boy really? That's interesting. The assignment is learning macros? 02:53:42 Man, Mr Tilton's latest post was a bit ... well, was he on some sort of amphetamine? 02:53:53 it's part 3 of this http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~su/teaching/ecs140a-f08/homework/hw4.pdf 02:54:01 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:54:49 sellout: link or paste for those of us who have sworn off cll? 02:55:19 chandler: on his blog ... http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/2008/11/foisting-of-infinite-state-machine.html 02:55:46 oh. 02:56:06 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:13 spiffman: then you are doing it wrong! You are trying to write match-var yes? 02:56:14 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:40 yea 02:56:50 I think it's the first thing I've read on his blog. 02:56:52 i wrote the others 02:57:36 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:57:39 I dig the 67 word sentences 02:58:36 drewc: i have everything in match-var written except i can't assign those variables globally, only locally 02:58:42 hefner: It's how he distinguishes himself from us yabbos on IRC, naturally. 02:59:18 aside from writing *real applications*? 03:00:40 I liked the whole "the way to keep two apps in sync is a FSM" thing. 03:01:10 drewc: if not macros, can you point me in a better direction to assign those vars? 03:01:15 spiffman: actually .. looking at the assignment again, that's a horrible requirement and the prof should be shot. 03:01:27 I hope this becomes the foreward to Fowler's DSL book 03:01:29 drewc: lol i feel better 03:01:59 spiffman: there are some real issues with using special variables in this manner... 03:02:19 not the least of which is breaking lambdas 03:02:54 yea? i think he was trying to transition us into how Prolog works with that assignment 03:03:14 spiffman: the prof is quite obviously not much of a lisper... 03:03:27 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:03:29 however, there is a way to do this 'right' ish. 03:03:41 actually .. no, not really. 03:03:46 drewc: yea he's a c++ compiler guy 03:03:58 hah well how can i at least hack it to get full points then? 03:04:23 what lisp are you using? 03:04:28 clisp 03:04:50 is the prof using clisp as well? 03:05:02 yup 03:05:12 the assignment requires clisp 03:05:38 is there any requirement that the assignments be ANSI common lisp?, or is something that happens to work in your implementation good enough? 03:05:49 oh, by clisp you mean GNU clisp right? 03:05:55 yea 03:06:13 and as long as it happens to work, looks like 03:08:22 ok, what does (progn (setf (symbol-value 'this-is-a-test) 1) this-is-a-test)) return in clisp? 03:09:39 *** - READ from # #>: an object cannot start with #\) 03:09:42 error 03:09:58 oops 03:10:03 remove the last paren 03:10:45 returns 1 03:10:53 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 03:10:59 ok, you're in luck then! 03:11:09 do you see it? 03:11:24 awesome! yea this-is-a-test is assigned 1 03:11:34 thanks a ton 03:11:44 right... that's not entirely legal common lisp, but it will work. 03:12:33 well whatever works at this point, 4 hours until due time :P 03:12:40 spiffman: for bonus points, have match-vars return a list of vars and values :) 03:12:49 that would be the right thing to do. 03:13:02 the assignment says it was due monday! 03:13:11 yea he extended it 03:13:22 lucky you :) 03:14:28 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:15:14 k thanks again, i'm off to finish that and a paper 03:15:25 -!- spiffman [n=aagimene@adsl-75-19-158-196.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["i'z out"] 03:16:50 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 03:16:51 doh! i wanted to get the profs email address so i could have a word with him. 03:20:34 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:20:44 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 03:22:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:22:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:32 spiffman [n=aagimene@adsl-75-19-158-196.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:23 drewc: so it turns out you can also just use (set (car thevarlist) (car thevallist)) 03:27:54 spiffman: SET is the same as (SETF SYMBOL-VALUE) 03:28:16 the only real difference being that the former is depreciated. 03:28:31 aahhh... ok i was playing with setq, but i guess that uses (set (quote ...)) 03:29:09 that was the way to think about it a long time ago, but is no longer the case 03:29:21 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 03:30:03 (setq does not expand to (set (quote...)) reliably in any way that makes sense in the presense of lexical scope) 03:30:27 has it the same semantics? 03:31:58 (let ((a 1)) (setq a 2) (set (quote a) 3) a) 03:32:13 phao [n=phao@20158129092.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 03:32:24 => 2 03:32:42 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host65.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 03:33:10 ok, same semantics on special variables? 03:33:44 Tordek [n=tordek@host65.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:33:53 aright leaving for real to finish hw, later 03:34:02 -!- spiffman [n=aagimene@adsl-75-19-158-196.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["i'z out"] 03:34:03 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm89.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:34:47 stassats: yeah.. (let ((a 1)) (declare (special a))(setq a 2) (set (quote a) 3) a) =>3 03:34:52 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host65.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Client Quit] 03:34:57 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:35:24 Tordek [n=tordek@host65.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:35:25 stassats: however, setq will expand to setf is a is a symbol macro. 03:35:43 if a is * 03:36:33 i think the departure from SETQ meaning (SET (QUOTE ...)) is one of the reasons why SET is depreciated. 03:36:53 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:24 they should really have dumped setq as well, but then how would i run all my old maclisp and Lisp machine lisp code! 03:38:15 there is a lot what they could have dumped 03:38:24 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:12 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:39:26 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm89.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:39:44 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host65.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:39:50 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host65.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Client Quit] 03:40:28 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:40:30 Dawgmatix_ [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:29 Guest32161 [n=patrick@74.167.137.69] has joined #lisp 03:41:51 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:49 stassats: indeed.. i'm mostly just kidding though, i actually like the historical baggage... it has character. 03:43:22 yasar [n=yasar@b199d242.dorm.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 03:43:43 -!- tiglionabbit [n=tigliona@207.111.204.82] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:43:44 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 03:43:51 If I am getting a list such as "((1 2) (a b))" in a string such as that one, how can I turn that string into something usable? 03:44:50 clhs read-from-string 03:44:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_fro.htm 03:44:54 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host65.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:45:11 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host65.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Client Quit] 03:45:12 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:45:24 thanks 03:46:14 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp91-122-107-24.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 03:46:37 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 03:47:03 Zoba: be careful though. 03:47:14 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:47:19 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:20 tiglionabbit [n=tigliona@75-101-24-112.static.dsltransport.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:01 (read-from-string "#.(delete-the-world)") => arggggg! 03:48:12 -!- deximer [n=deximer@pool-129-44-186-169.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:48:25 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:48:26 drewc, oh? 03:49:00 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:49:42 (let (*read-eval*) (read-from-string "#.(delete-world)")) 03:50:20 where's pjb when you need him? 03:51:01 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 03:51:05 hefner: i almost called (delete-the-world) as (pjb) ... but figured that would make no sense to Zoba :) 03:51:10 hehe 03:53:32 thanks drewc, I will be sure not to delete the world :) 03:54:19 Zoba: don't trust any input, and especially never eval anything without making 100% sure it's sane :) 03:54:34 tiglionabbit_ [n=tigliona@75-101-24-112.static.dsltransport.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:41 -!- tiglionabbit [n=tigliona@75-101-24-112.static.dsltransport.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:54:55 drewc: deprecated ;) 03:55:48 *drewc* scrolls up 03:56:03 Well, my algorithms are going to be making the stuff that will eventually be read from the string, so unless there is a high probability of it reading incorrectly *hopefully* I'll be ok 03:56:22 depreciated .. lol... who's been spending a lot of time in the accounting software lately? me! that's who. 03:56:53 Zoba: that's seems a little convoluted... why not have the algo create sexps directly? 03:57:33 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:42 heh, found something 03:57:49 http://www.solve-et-coagula.com/As3Lisp.html 03:57:58 a *tiny* Lisp in Flash 03:58:14 drewc, The data is being stored in OpenCyc and then called up later 03:58:36 supported functions http://www.solve-et-coagula.com/?p=8 03:59:13 Zoba: makes sense to me :) 03:59:42 -!- yasar [n=yasar@b199d242.dorm.bilkent.edu.tr] has left #lisp 04:00:03 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host65.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 04:00:04 drewc, haha, thanks :) 04:00:18 Tordek [n=tordek@host65.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 04:00:38 is it just me or there is too much about flash around nowadays? 04:00:41 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:53 -!- VityokOr` [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:02:17 stassats`: it's just me making the pleasnat noise, and a handful of arrogant jerks who keep tolerating me :-P 04:02:40 fusss: not only here 04:03:10 stassats`: yeah, there is way too much interest 04:03:18 minion: logs 04:04:06 photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 04:04:27 stassats`, I kind of like it...quite a bit more can be done on the web than without it (though, the desparity has lessened since ajax/web 2.0 got in full swing). I wish Lisp could do some of the really nice graphical things Flash can do 04:04:40 there is much noise about flash because javascript + html + css + animated gifs + SVG do not a portable web application platform make 04:04:48 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 04:05:48 Zoba: you might wanna rephrase that too "can't wait to do cool flash stuff in Lisp". Flash is a platform, not a tool. 04:08:05 Ah, I guess I meant actionscript then... 04:08:13 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host65.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 04:08:22 flash does desktop as well, with Flex and AIR 04:08:25 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.232.164] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:08:54 you should see all the businessy spreadsheety eye candy stuff they do in Flash at MicroStrategy, for example 04:09:23 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 04:09:47 Tordek [n=tordek@host65.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 04:09:59 please never mind that last unnecessary name drop 04:10:05 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:10:08 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A24740.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 04:10:28 *fusss* back to my cocoon 04:10:29 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["uck wa"] 04:11:30 fusss, are you connected with them? 04:11:40 no 04:11:41 Haha... 04:12:02 spiffman [n=aagimene@adsl-75-19-158-196.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:32 i'm back for one last silly question... 04:12:52 is there a way to check whether a variable name has already been assigned? 04:13:01 boundp 04:13:32 (boundp x) when x is not assigned anything gives me error "no such variable" 04:13:45 (boundp 'x) 04:14:16 thanks! my homework gets full points now :) 04:14:46 Just make sure to credit me on your homework. 04:15:14 or buy his book. 04:15:15 really? 04:15:26 ..and give it to your professor 04:15:34 hefner: ;-) 04:15:39 lol will do 04:19:33 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:24:18 if you want the gory details on symbols and packages you might enjoy Erann Gat's introduction to packages 04:25:32 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:26:07 http://lemonodor.com/archives/001380.html this was pretty amusing, after an erann gat google 04:26:22 woah, just saw that as well 04:26:42 hefner: another reason not to read Yegge http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html 04:26:45 i could send that to my professor too XD 04:28:13 spiffman: it might be nice to know he wrote a javascript interpreter in Emacs Lisp 04:31:16 who did? 04:31:25 gat or yegge? 04:32:03 curtosis [n=cmcurtis@c-24-126-51-106.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:31 yegge 04:33:50 isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:34:32 *fusss* doesn't trust bloggers with rational arguments 04:37:18 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:45:00 Hi. 04:45:04 How am I supposed to 04:45:23 How am I supposed to use a mk-system thing from sbcl ? 04:45:57 (I'm quite new to this and can't make an asdf package of it) 04:46:36 dakeyras_ [n=dakeyras@76-204-254-96.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:25 -!- dakeyras_ [n=dakeyras@76-204-254-96.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:47:28 did you mean mk-defsystem? 04:47:51 yes 04:48:25 asdf package of mk-defsystem? 04:48:36 Axioplase: use rif's blapack. 04:53:43 -!- tiglionabbit_ [n=tigliona@75-101-24-112.static.dsltransport.net] has quit [] 04:56:46 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:56:56 Good morning. 04:57:15 morn beach 04:59:18 morning. 04:59:58 gigamonkey: I suggested the word-processor project. Thanks again for encouraging that. 05:00:01 photon3 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 05:00:05 beach: It's climacs that has the fancy parsing foo in it, right. 05:00:07 No problem. 05:00:12 Let me know what comes of it. 05:00:27 gigamonkey: Yes, Climacs has a pretty good incremental parser in it. 05:00:42 What's the name of the parsing technology it uses? 05:01:07 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:08 *hefner* is reminded to look at that structure editor 05:01:19 gigamonkey: It's just LALR parsing really, but it saves the parsing context so that it doesn't have to do the work each time. 05:01:24 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:01:34 beach: you guys certainly don't shy away from handing out substantial projects 05:01:35 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 05:01:52 hefner: you think so? 05:02:13 hefner: The structure editor is not *that* hard. 05:03:19 i wonder if special/lexical variable binding semantics of Lisp map to the static-link/dynamic-link semantics in Algol compilers 05:05:12 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 05:05:28 (please debug my understanding of things) the two environments are stacked symbol table, except in the static-link, you're looking up the chain of enclosing blocks at defenition. time. lexical scoping. in dynamic link, you're looking up the chain of activation records. 05:05:33 beach: perhaps not. do they have a whole semester to do this stuff? 05:05:45 hefner: They do, yes. 05:06:39 *hefner* feels a little sorry for students forced to suffer using mcclim 05:07:08 hefner: That's not a problem. We hide it behind things like ESA. 05:08:08 -!- spiffman [n=aagimene@adsl-75-19-158-196.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["philosophy paper... or not philosophy paper?"] 05:09:02 benny` [n=benny@i577A0E03.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:09:57 fusss: that sounds rightish. 05:10:25 -!- bighous1 [n=bighouse@bas1-montreal42-1177928353.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 05:10:27 good to know :-) 05:11:09 this was looking promising, right up until I moved the cursor back/in two forms and it blew out my control stack 05:13:50 -!- curtosis [n=cmcurtis@c-24-126-51-106.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:15:05 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 05:15:09 -!- photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:18:29 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0726.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:57 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D1EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:16 segv [n=mb@p4FC1D950.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:51 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:23:12 hefner: besides, this is the first year of students that have already had the programming-project course last year, in which they worked on a CLIM-based word processor that I wrote. 05:25:58 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:26:10 beach: out of curiousity, what new things do your/their word processor bring to the table? 05:28:09 hypno: they one they worked on last year brings absolutely nothing new. It was written for pedagogical reasons. The one I suggest this year is supposed to bring high-quality rendering on the screen. 05:29:54 beach: ah, ok. 05:30:48 hypno: I am counting on integrating my Lisp-based font technology into it, as in http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/fonts.png 05:30:51 *gigamonkey* wants a WYSIWYWLA word processor. 05:31:04 WLA? 05:31:08 What You See IS What You Wanna Look At 05:31:09 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47CDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:15 beach: you never know with lisp folks - they usually surpise in both solution and philosophy, and given that TeX is such a retarded beast for us who do physics and math, I'm hunting for any option that would ease my pain and suffering. :) 05:31:19 gigamonkey: Yes, nice 05:31:32 aim high - write a word processor that writes for you, unattended 05:31:58 I.e. I don't really care if what I see on the screen is exactly what will print on the page--my book is going to be carefully typeset before it's printed. I just want something nice to look at while I'm thinking. 05:32:05 hypno: I see what you mean. Gsharp is like that for score editing. 05:33:08 gigamonkey: I pretty much agree. In my project proposal, I claim that current word processors start with the printed document and make bad compromises to show it on screen. 05:33:13 beach: ah, cool. 05:34:05 hypno: I like the idea of TeXmacs, but it ought to be written in Lisp, and the rendering of computer-modern fonts on the screen is pretty awful. 05:34:29 would it be wrong to think of dynamic and lexical environments as two stacks with the global environments at their bottom? so ifa lookup fails in either, it defaults to the global env. I.e. lexical and dynamic environments take precedence over the global environment? 05:34:45 beach, I'm sure you could run xpdf in an emacs buffer. 05:34:48 hypno: "given that TeX is such a retarded beast for us who do physics and math" 05:34:53 I love my tex. :< 05:35:03 ^ Agreed. 05:35:22 mek||malloc: I am sure you could, but already the font rendering of xpdf is pretty bad. 05:35:22 Quadrescence: well, i just love the output. i fucking hate the markup. 05:35:31 fusss: Not quite. If a symbol can't be resolved lexically it is assumed to be dynamic. 05:35:36 True. 05:35:44 hypno: It's not that bad. It's just learning it. 05:35:48 Thus the compiler warnings about "assuming X is dynamic" from some impls. 05:35:58 yeah, i have seen them 05:35:59 Just like emacs. Emacs is bad until you learn it. 05:36:00 :) 05:36:09 Emacs is never bad. 05:36:16 The global environment is just the broadest dynamic scope. 05:36:16 VI(M) is bad until you learn it. 05:36:51 I wonder if you can spawn emacs within an emacs buffer. 05:36:55 mek||malloc: I meant that most people, including myself honestly, think emacs is bad/too much/too archaic/too old 05:36:55 Experiment time, back in a second. 05:37:04 Quadrescence: TeX is objectively a pretty bad language though. The fact that humans are able to deal with horrible things by getting to like them is not an excuse. 05:37:09 Leaving asside some implementations that actually have a "global lexical" variables that are created when you SETF a variable that has never been declared with DEFVAR/DEFPARAMETER. 05:37:27 yes, newer activations can override the global environment, but if a dynamic variable lookup fails to find a binding in the current dynamic env, it can go up the call stack until, possibly, it defaults to the global environment. 05:37:32 beach: But it's not getting to like it. 05:37:34 *gigamonkey* wonders if Knuth thinks TeX is a bad language. He should ask him. 05:37:45 Quadrescence: Ah, so one you're of those people who uses emacs, runs pine in one buffer and VI in another. 05:37:50 beach: It's actually pretty good. But I guess that's an opinion. 05:38:16 mek||malloc: No, no, I'm not. I usually just have my source file and a slime repl. 05:38:21 gigamonkey: I suspect he does. As I recall, he didn't want to write another Turing-complete langauge initially, but then someone convinced him that it was the best solution. 05:38:27 Hooray for slime. 05:40:02 *sigh* Adobe's "Hints for compiler writers" to target flash is .. two pages long :-P 05:40:16 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-160-58.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:42 Quadrescence: you just wait until you run into issues with tables and figures beeing placed absurdly out of place, etc. my main gripe with TeX is that it's very hard to get 100% perfection in the output. there's always some little irritating detail that gets misplaced. 05:41:08 beach: I'm pretty sure I've got Guy Steele on record claiming to be the one to convince him. 05:41:41 hypno: I think I'm pretty good with TeX. I've written a ton of stuff in it. And yeah, getting things the way you want them can be hard at first, I suppose. 05:41:45 Or rather Steele noticed that it was about to become a Turing complete language and suggested Knuth actually think about that a bit. 05:43:04 fusss: that's better than it being 2,000 pages long, at least. 05:44:04 hefner: hey, I liked Agner Fog's manuals on optimizing for every minor revision/variation of the Pentium II 05:45:14 ain't it funny how a photo-editor program company is about to become the new Sun :-/ 05:45:52 gigamonkey: nice! 05:45:59 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45042.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:46:19 karpar [n=zhili@2001:da8:8000:d010:0:5efe:7dd9:f6d9] has joined #lisp 05:49:03 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:12 gigamokney pasted "Steele on Knuth and TeX" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70747 05:50:38 beach: yeah. texmacs is sort of cool. i really want a more smalltalkish world though. i want emacs to hit this century, supporting zooming interfaces, gl, statistics & monitoring, arbitrary window piping, shells and wordprocessing out of the box. :) 05:51:34 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:51:46 gigamonkey: Very good! 05:53:10 hypno: I think CLIM is a better base for applications than Emacs. 05:54:13 beach: oh, heh, it probably is. i started hacking on something alone those lines with Piccolo2D and to interface that to lisp, but it sucks to depend on java. 05:55:26 s/alone/along :( 05:56:04 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 05:56:49 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:57:37 hypno: perhaps you would like to work on some part of McCLIM? 05:58:02 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-34-186.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:58:58 sounds more like he wants to work on cello 05:59:15 oh dear! 05:59:57 heh, cello would probably be closer to what i had in mind. in fact, it would probably be similiar to the Genera Windows stuff mixed with GL than just emacs. 06:01:29 tiglionabbit [n=tigliona@adsl-70-143-79-168.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:37 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 06:06:46 -!- _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:07:21 -!- hd_ [n=hd_@253.176.233.220.exetel.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:09:07 beach: did you look at Pango at all? 06:09:35 good morning 06:09:40 -!- kami-``` is now known as kami- 06:10:31 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:25 Morning. 06:13:36 gigamonkey: Not at the code, but I looked at the documentation. 06:13:49 Did it look useful? 06:14:30 Oh, ligatures. You (or the students) are egoing to do ligatures, right? 06:14:37 s/egoing/going/ 06:14:37 Not to me. I mean, part of what I want is for things to be done in Lisp. 06:15:00 So what it the primitive non-Lisp thing underlying yours going to be? 06:15:12 gigamonkey: I am not going to ask my students to do ligatures. 06:15:34 gigamonkey: ? 06:15:35 Doh! That's an important part of the WYSIWYWLA paradigm! 06:16:12 gigamonkey: A student project is not about creating something useful. 06:16:31 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:16:34 beach: heaven forfend. 06:16:41 I mean, somehow you're going to put pixels on the screen. I'm assuming somewhere between Common Lisp and the video card is some software not written in Lisp. 06:16:54 gigamonkey: right, the X server. 06:16:58 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.73.4] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:17:21 So you're using CLX or whatever it's called--a Lisp X client? 06:17:49 gigamonkey: yes. The main idea is to finish the McCLIM framebuffer backend. 06:18:01 *hefner* suddenly wants to write a wolfenstein clone using CL and CLX 06:18:20 gigamonkey: which is essentially an X11 image that is transfered to the server after each iteration of the CLIM command loop. 06:18:30 beach: did you ever release your metafont-like code? 06:18:38 slyrus_: it's in Gsharp 06:18:43 ah, nice 06:19:15 I see. So in Lisp you generate an image of the whole window everytime something happens and send the whole thing to the X server to display. 06:19:36 gigamonkey: Yes, and possibly optimized so that only modified parts are transmitted. 06:19:36 Though perhaps you do something smarter than actually completely regenerating the whole image every time. 06:19:48 So both the generation and transmission can be optimized. 06:19:56 -!- tiglionabbit [n=tigliona@adsl-70-143-79-168.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:20:09 gigamonkey: the generation is optimized already because of CLIM incremental redisplay. 06:20:24 So in the Lisp side are you basically manipulating some 2d array reperesenting the pixels? 06:20:34 rsynnott_ [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 06:20:42 gigamonkey: Yes. That's what a CLX image object is. 06:21:10 And is that presumably what something like Pango is also doing under the covers? 06:21:24 gigamonkey: that might be true. 06:22:04 They might use the X render extension. 06:23:40 both, I'd guess 06:24:50 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:26:06 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 06:27:32 hrm... what am I supposed to do when I have the urge to both shadow and export a symbol that is in common-lisp? 06:27:40 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:27:41 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Client Quit] 06:27:53 Put a damp washcloth on the back of your neck. 06:27:57 slyrus_: go right ahead 06:28:01 go for it. 06:28:11 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 06:28:14 What symbol? 06:28:22 yeah, but when I have another package that wants to use that _and_ cl, what do I do? 06:28:25 gigamonkey: atom 06:28:46 slyrus_: I am getting more and more convinced that one should not :use packages other than common-lisp and possibly CLIM. 06:28:56 They have to decide. And they grumble at you. 06:29:12 beach: is the rule to only use packages whose contents haven't changed in 15 years, then? 06:29:21 exports, rather. 06:29:36 hefner: yeah, and that aren't likely to change in the next 15 years either. 06:29:37 I'd like atom to be cl:atom and chem:atom to be my atom, but to do that I have to either not use chem or do chem::atom 06:29:58 but, ok, I can see the rationale for not using chem, I guess. darn. 06:30:11 can you work some umlauts in there? 06:30:29 ätom? 06:30:34 heavy metal umlauts? 06:30:42 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:15 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:31:29 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:31:39 slyrus_: perhaps "molecule" would otherwise do? certainly, in chemistry people tend to use those two words somewhat interchangably, much to my dislike. 06:31:40 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 06:31:56 hypno: no, molecules are made up of atoms. 06:32:08 and I already have a molecule class, and an element class.. 06:32:13 slyrus_: I think you should go ahead and export chem:atom and then (defun atomp (x) (cl:atom x)) and export chem:atomp too. 06:32:46 Then everybody will use chem just to fix that little CL oddity. ;-) 06:32:59 perhaps you also need a chem-lisp package that reexports (almost) all of common-lisp 06:33:00 gigamonkey: yeah, but I still have to figure out how to use cl and chem if I do that. I think I'll try beach's suggestion and just not use :chemicl 06:34:01 I have ocassionaly thought of making a whole set of packages, each of which would reexport some cohesive subset of the symbols in COMMON-LISP. 06:34:37 I support this idea. Call it the lisp construction kit. 06:34:55 slyrus_: btw, what are you working on? 06:35:29 I've recently noticed that although CL is a great language for writing compilers, it's sort of a pain that so many compiler-related terms are taken. STRING, SYMBOL, VARIABLE, etc. 06:35:30 just don't go the factor route, where a good sized file ends up having twenty or thirty imports at the top :) 06:35:51 hypno: representation of chemical information 06:36:01 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:31 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.69.78] has joined #lisp 06:37:05 *aja* wonders if the only reason clojure was invented was to add namespaces to a lisp 06:37:24 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 06:44:31 -!- rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:46:24 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:46:32 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 06:53:38 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E61B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:10 Common Lisp has "namespaces", several at least 06:55:27 clhs 3.1.1 06:55:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_aa.htm 06:57:25 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user157-124.wireless.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 06:57:26 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 06:57:47 -!- Guest32161 [n=patrick@74.167.137.69] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:58:20 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user157-124.wireless.utoronto.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 06:58:41 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user157-124.wireless.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 07:05:10 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.204.108] has joined #lisp 07:09:13 ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.81.79] has joined #lisp 07:10:19 is the cello project the gui tool kit for lisp still on? 07:10:46 tiglionabbit [n=tigliona@adsl-70-143-79-168.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:23 -!- ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.81.79] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:12:20 -!- tiglionabbit [n=tigliona@adsl-70-143-79-168.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:12:25 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.69.78] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:12:47 notsonerdysunny: I don't know the answer to your question, but do you mind telling me why you ask? 07:18:11 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:20:52 having to deal with CSS to render SVG is kind of a drag. 07:21:06 I was looking for a good crsoss platform gui tool kit for lisp .. 07:21:21 notsonerdysunny: What's wrong with CLIM? 07:21:43 I didn't know .. Let me look at it 07:21:53 minion: tell notsonerdysunny about CLIM 07:22:27 Is CLIM still active? 07:22:32 notsonerdysunny: have a look at CLIM: The Common Lisp Interface Manager (CLIM) is a powerful Lisp-based programming interface that provides a layered set of portable facilities for constructing user interfaces. http://www.cliki.net/CLIM 07:22:33 beach: does mcclim work on windows? 07:22:34 notsonerdysunny: yes 07:22:48 H4ns: I don't know. I don't use Windows myself. 07:22:48 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-096-90.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:50 beach: commercial lisps only tho, or am I wrong? 07:23:02 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:23:14 H4ns: i believe it's possible to use it on windows with x server 07:23:17 beach: still, he asked for a "cross platform" gui toolkit. 07:23:22 there are also bindings for most major GUI libraries 07:23:32 fusss: I don't understand your question. 07:23:48 there is no free clim for windows Lisps 07:24:06 fusss: there is no free windows either 07:24:11 *hefner* has run clim on windows.. using an X server 07:24:18 also what H4ns said :) 07:24:20 fusss: I think people who are willing to pay for Windows should pay for Lisp and CLIM as well. 07:25:06 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:06 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:25:08 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 07:28:21 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:28:53 good morning 07:29:08 just think, if we had a framebuffer medium backend, something of a windows backend could be thrown together in an evening or two :) 07:29:10 hello mvilleneuve 07:29:28 hefner: Ah, interesting! 07:29:36 but beach .. once I (the developer) buy clim can the users of the tool user it for free? 07:30:05 notsonerdysunny: I don't know. You would have to check with your vendor. 07:30:08 notsonerdysunny: if you buy it from franz, then no. if you buy it from lispworks, then propably. 07:33:04 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 07:33:13 notsonerdysunny: check out http://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/ for a free clim implementation 07:33:36 mcclim is the absolute worst possible recommendation 07:34:11 is that so? 07:34:16 xristos: i am not recommending it. i am referring to it, as it contains enough information so that one can judge whether clim is a suitable recommendation in the first place. 07:34:19 he asked for cross-platform toolkit 07:34:48 xristos: you know, there are these silly answers here: you can run an x-server and be cross platform. 07:34:49 xristos: it's cross platform. works great on linux, freebsd, solaris, hpux, ... ! 07:35:00 it does in fact also work on OS X and Windows 07:35:19 people are even using it on those platforms 07:35:27 i tried to use it on osx 07:35:41 that said, I think it's a bad idea to recommend mcclim to random people 07:35:41 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:36:00 gave up after frequent crashes, flicker, slowness, drawing artifacts etc etc 07:36:02 hefner: i concur. 07:36:08 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:36:16 I love the term "crashes" 07:36:25 "it threw me in the debugger and I couldn't find my 0 key!" 07:36:47 actually, from that description it sounds like xristos tried the beagle backend 07:36:56 mcclim is good if you have time to study it 07:37:03 Krystof, i tried both 07:37:09 X11 is just as bad 07:37:16 no, that is simply wrong 07:37:45 in what way 07:37:56 the mcclim X11 backend is not just as bad as the beagle backend 07:38:14 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:15 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:38:17 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:24 just as bad = unuseable 07:38:24 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:38:34 specifically, it tends not to crash frequently, flicker, or have many drawing artifacts 07:38:58 i'm talking about gtkcairo btw 07:39:08 so, not the X11 backend then 07:39:09 cretin 07:39:15 its not X11 ? 07:39:18 what is it 07:39:27 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 07:39:27 tell you what, grow a clue and then talk later 07:39:33 no seriously 07:40:02 but anyway 07:40:12 the fact that you just recommended the clx to me 07:40:19 means that you've lost touch with reality 07:40:22 kpreid___ [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:40:34 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:40:55 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:37 I haven't recommended anything to you 07:41:53 then why are we having this conversation 07:42:04 if you can't see the difference between "your statement is wrong" and "you should immediately start using ", you need to go back to primary school 07:42:13 I am correcting your lies 07:42:21 what lies ? 07:42:33 gtkcairo uses X11 07:44:31 heh, it is nice to see that a newbie's question for a gui toolkit to use with lisp can generate such a nice conversation. 07:44:51 anyone recommending mcclim to newbies asking for cross platform toolkits is stark raving mad 07:45:00 thats all from me 07:45:16 xristos: what would you recommend then? 07:45:37 xristos: or is the answer: there is no viable cross platform gui toolkit for common lisp period. 07:45:45 In the future, I'm going to recommend "CFFI" 07:45:57 ltki would recommend ltk 07:46:06 hefner: isn't that as as bad? 07:46:17 maybe I interject? use your choice of Gtk FFI. It works, looks good and it's dead simple (easy on my simple mind at least) 07:46:21 "i want to program guis in lisp" "yes, you can call out to c" 07:47:06 anyway, breakfast. 07:47:24 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:47:38 i agree with xristos, if that counts for anything 07:47:50 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:48:42 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:49:00 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 07:49:10 CAPI is the best CL GUI, imo. (contain (make-instance 'button :label "Click me")) has the instant gratification of a Tk hello world and it's full blown CLOS 07:50:11 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD3892B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:50:17 I'm not comfortable with definitions of best that somehow overlook the ability of 90% of this channel to use it in a useful capacity 07:50:19 i would love to have a free cross platform CAPI, that's why I started implementing DUIM in CL (still a sketch) 07:50:24 or inability, rather 07:51:06 DUIM is more orthogonal than CAPI, since McKay had a chance to look at CAPI and had the benefit of hindsight 07:51:32 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 07:51:36 cloning DUIM wouldn't be "ripping off" LW, since someone else did it first, and it's, in fact, a different API. Many reasons. 07:54:19 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:54:44 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:56:30 you can't please everyone, unfortunately. 07:56:39 Sure you can. 07:56:44 That's what macros are for :o) 07:57:18 hey. 07:57:33 '(hey) 07:57:51 therefore - this seems logical to me - screw'em all 07:58:07 hefner: No no no. If you want logical you'd use Prolog. 07:58:08 :o) 07:58:12 Or implement Prolog in LISP. 07:58:22 ACM has an excellent article on that, by the way. 07:59:17 hefner: purity vs pragmatism 07:59:30 DUIM is neat, and manages to avoid the brain damage of CLIM mostly be excluding all of its interesting features 08:00:05 mek||malloc: Wait, I think I just saw you in ##math. 08:00:15 mostly because DUIM is just smoke and mirrors 08:00:29 DUIM is a highly refined and well designed spec for a gui _FFI_ 08:00:53 are you certain? 08:01:01 i would bet on it 08:01:08 nothing i couldn't map to lambda-gtk 08:01:18 or for that matter win32 API 08:01:29 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:02:01 McKay says so himself in the draft rationale 08:02:03 anyway, if you implement it as an FFI to toolkit X, those who prefer toolkit Y will complain, and vice versa, and lisp purists will complain regardless that you didn't implement the interesting bits all in CL 08:02:24 and if you do all three as options, your implementation will be crap and never get finished anyway 08:03:08 the DUIM API are all generic functions. you will have to implement the methods for each backend and keep the same API. 08:03:42 that sounds great in theory 08:04:29 -!- mek||malloc [n=mek@c-76-19-92-55.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:05:45 then you find (say) the specified protocols don't fit a certain platform or toolkit very well, and then you have a bunch of mac users whining that your application is weird 08:05:59 (or none, because they won't use it) 08:06:02 yeah 08:06:20 i was whining about it here, and i'm the guy who wants to write it 08:06:26 pwned [n=epitaph@78.176.120.56] has joined #lisp 08:06:50 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-6084e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:07:02 one area of incompatibility is gui toolkits that have children that point to their parents, vs duim which has the parent point to the children 08:07:16 -!- _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 08:07:38 hi, for a school project I have to find what lisp provides that the other languages don't. Or what syntax it has that is hard or impossible to emulate in other languages. I need a comparative intro 08:07:48 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 08:07:50 can I get help on that? 08:07:56 fusss: I can't imagine you not needing to maintain that knowledge in both directions pretty much anywhere 08:07:57 pwned: not likely. 08:08:04 a win32 gadget, or "control", has to have a HWND pointer to its parent. that's why i linked to the window-less guis few days ago :-) 08:08:11 pwned: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 08:08:44 pwned: you wanna look into what Lisp got right: The Roots of Lisp by Paul Graham should help 08:09:05 anyway, I think that mapping toolkit gadgets to separate native windows is a loss, which implies you probably can't use native gadgets at akk 08:09:33 everything is just much simpler if you don't have to deal with that 08:10:06 and you have more flexibility in how things are painted and events are distributed 08:10:13 stassats` this looks useful thanks, fusss: ok will do, thanks. pkhuong: I'm sure there is a reason for pessimism, I'd like to know more 08:10:24 hefner: unfortunately, Real Life dropped flash crap on my plate, and whence why I'm running around in circles and not hacking on DUIM 08:11:11 pwned: it's the middle of the night in all of america. 08:11:21 pwned: trivia: Lisp was the first programming language to support the IEEE floating point standard, even before fortran :-) 08:11:30 and relatively early in eastern europe. 08:12:04 *western (good night) 08:12:13 fusss: heh, that's definitely a plus. pkhuong gnight, you're right 08:13:19 pwned: and at one point you could read and write numbers in Roman numerals. Then the Eastern empire was attacked by Ottomans and the Vax killed the PDP :-( 08:13:22 *stassats`* is lucky enough to be in eastern europe, where it's the middle of the day 08:13:39 whoa. 08:14:13 stassats`: Russia? :D :D 08:14:23 Quadrescence: yes 08:14:54 I'd type in Russian but then #lisp would yell at me, and I'm sure my encoding is set incorrectly. 08:15:48 kak dila droog 08:16:10 >_> 08:16:15 -!- phao [n=phao@20158129092.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:58 phao [n=phao@20158129092.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 08:17:17 blokha? 08:17:23 alright, nite all! 08:17:24 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 08:17:28 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 08:17:44 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.204.108] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 08:18:03 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.204.108] has joined #lisp 08:18:21 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.204.108] has quit [Client Quit] 08:19:00 tiglionabbit [n=tigliona@adsl-70-143-79-168.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:25 binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.204.108] has joined #lisp 08:20:41 -!- binarycodes_ is now known as binarycodes 08:21:14 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.204.108] has quit [Client Quit] 08:21:27 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.204.108] has joined #lisp 08:24:19 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:24:27 How comes in a (old?) foo.system I got, there are some :source-pathname (truename "foo:bar") ? The colons aren't understood and I had to change them to (truename "foo/bar") 08:24:56 Do I miss an option somewhere, or is my mk-defsystem broken? (or are the .system files broken?) 08:26:09 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:26:49 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:56 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 08:35:36 Good morning everyone. 08:35:36 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:36:19 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:38:17 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:38:28 -!- phao [n=phao@20158129092.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:38:31 Good morning 08:41:50 phao [n=phao@20158129092.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 08:45:18 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:47:52 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:48:03 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user157-124.wireless.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:50:09 Ugh. The Thunderbird configuration file makes me really long for s-exps. 08:50:32 use Gnus :) 08:50:40 or mutt 08:50:41 jrockway, wrong operating system! 08:51:02 Axioplase, I've actually considered doing that. I have to find the energy to switch over. 08:51:48 now that i think about it... it was a pain to setup gnus 08:52:00 instead of directly accessing my IMAP server, i use offlineimap to sync it to a local server 08:52:07 because for some reason the imap process blocks emacs 08:52:46 <_deepfire> slyrus_, did anybody mention shadowing-import-from? 08:52:47 and so do local folder (mbox, maildir) because it takes a while for them to be parsed 08:53:06 some day i am just going to stop using email :) 08:53:10 that is the correct solution 08:56:48 -!- schme_ is now known as schme 08:58:33 hmmmm 08:58:40 tic: What operating system does not run gnus? 08:58:50 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 08:58:50 ivanst [i=ivans@93-138-116-5.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:58:50 schme: vim? 08:58:55 stassats`: hahaha :) 08:59:06 stassats`: You've just made my day. That was very funny :) 08:59:27 athos [n=philipp@p54B86ADA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:41 "emacs is a great OS but a terrible text editor" 08:59:45 schme: i think that's what tic meant 08:59:51 a great way to tell that the person making the comment has never used emacs ;) 09:01:58 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.204.108] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 09:02:52 -!- enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:04:16 -!- t [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has left #lisp 09:04:43 stassats`, indeed. 09:05:07 kami- [n=user@p4FD3892B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:07:10 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:00 wait, people on #lisp use vim? 09:09:06 i don't believe it :) 09:09:12 jrockway: some try hard 09:10:28 damn straight! 09:10:38 (damn right? meh) 09:11:03 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:14:44 -!- karpar [n=zhili@2001:da8:8000:d010:0:5efe:7dd9:f6d9] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:15:59 what do you use as a lisp REPL? 09:16:10 (hopefully not sbcl's default ;) 09:16:25 rlwrap sbcl 09:16:28 slimeeeeeeeeee repl 09:16:40 slime 09:17:04 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:17:06 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-219.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:17:16 hello lispers 09:17:26 Hello 09:17:29 hello kiuma 09:18:39 jrockway: I use SLIME most of the time, but sometimes I use the CLIM listener 09:18:45 yeah 09:18:51 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D806.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:18:53 i was asking in the context of vim users 09:19:03 but rlwrap is nifty, i will use it when i need to use guile 09:19:15 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D806.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:46 -!- azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:23:07 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 09:26:35 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:26:50 -!- ecuzzill [n=ecuzzill@c-24-131-19-37.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:29:55 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 09:32:04 mega1 [n=mega@3e70dddb.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:32:16 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:36:59 jrockway, Limp, http://mikael.jansson.be/hacking/limp 09:37:24 jrockway, and hopefully -- before the end of the decade -- something better, see http://common-lisp.net/project/limp 09:39:03 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:39:19 (but yes, rlwrap sbcl inside a screen) 09:41:03 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:42:31 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:43:33 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 09:47:46 i see 09:47:52 i have to say, i really like the tight emacs/slime integration 09:48:11 it is wonderful to edit some code, hit C-c C-k, then type (run!) in the REPL and see my tests pass 09:48:41 i guess that is what limp is aiming to achieve 09:49:11 i am interested in vi because i want to make my emacs+perl integration stuff work with vi 09:49:25 to prevent people from switching to other editors, like whatever activestate's thing is 09:49:28 dunno why i care, but i do :) 09:49:59 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:52:37 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:52:59 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:54:20 -!- tiglionabbit [n=tigliona@adsl-70-143-79-168.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:54:53 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2D034.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:30 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:56:05 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:57:23 you sort of broke-up there at the end jrockway, the relation of emacs et. al. to lisp being less than clear, but thanks for the reference to limp, good to see there's a vi alternate to slime. 09:57:58 not that I ever expect to use it, just feels good somehow. 09:58:04 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has joined #lisp 09:59:59 JuanDaugherty, thanks. 10:04:37 Is there a chance that this is integrated into vim mainline? 10:06:05 Seems to be more sensible if such things could be loaded into Vim dynamically. I.e. some plugin architecture. 10:06:07 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 10:09:59 tcr, http://www.mail-archive.com/vim_dev@googlegroups.com/msg04404.html and http://groups.google.com/group/vim_dev/web/vim-patches -- for #1, it seems I'd have to do it myself and publish another patch at #2. 10:10:17 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D806.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:10:29 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:14:55 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 10:15:03 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:15:12 -!- phao [n=phao@20158129092.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:16:46 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:17:09 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:13 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:19:30 neighbors [n=miles@c-76-102-28-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:31 hd_ [n=hd_@253.176.233.220.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:19:35 -!- neighbors is now known as neighb0rs 10:19:44 blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.223] has joined #lisp 10:20:04 I wanted to play around with lisp, installed slime on gentoo, but can't figure out the name of the executable to start it 10:20:07 do I just run emacs? 10:20:58 neighb0rs: you need to install a lisp implementation in addition to emacs and slime 10:21:06 neighb0rs: sbcl will propably work well 10:21:57 ahh 10:22:00 I see, ok thanks 10:22:10 yeah I overlooked that, seems it's not included in slime alone 10:23:08 hkBst [n=hkBst@70pc222.sshunet.nl] has joined #lisp 10:23:35 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:23:36 oh seems sbcl was already installed 10:23:46 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:23:59 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:24:53 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:39 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:32 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:34:32 elurin [n=user@85.96.232.164] has joined #lisp 10:36:09 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:36:16 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:39:43 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Operation timed out] 10:40:08 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 10:40:58 phao [n=phao@20158154007.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 10:43:21 cracki [n=cracki@44-082.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:43:45 cpape [n=user@p5484C361.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:59 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-082.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 10:48:57 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD3892B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:49:24 mulligan` [n=user@e178005119.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:49:27 kami- [n=user@p4FD3892B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:49:36 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD3892B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 10:51:57 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:43 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:57:58 rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:58:45 H4ns: I just can't seem to figure out how to get this to work :/ it might be due to not being very familiar with emacs 10:58:57 when I try to change to the REPL buffer, it always says not connected 10:59:07 the slime docs say you start it with M-x slime 10:59:38 so what happens when you do M-x slime? 11:00:17 thing is when I read the docs it seems it's saying alt is M 11:00:26 but I get "A-x is undefined" 11:00:32 so I must be failing to do M 11:00:33 -!- ths [n=ths@X536c.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:00:52 you can do ESC-x 11:01:18 ahhhh 11:01:20 ya that does it 11:01:31 thank you very much stassats` 11:01:40 you should fix your keymap so alt is meta. 11:01:46 it's not very convenient, you must be able to configure your environment to use Alt as M 11:01:53 (FSV of "fix") 11:03:12 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:03:33 ths [n=ths@p549AF7D3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:09:16 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:11:47 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 11:21:25 etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:12 -!- hd_ [n=hd_@253.176.233.220.exetel.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:28:15 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:30:05 -!- etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.4 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 11:38:17 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:39:02 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:41:37 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 11:42:02 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.232.164] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:45:05 I use postmodern and local-time, when I change the *default-timezone* to GMT by (define-timezone *default-timezone* "/usr/share/zoneinfo/GMT" :load t), I can't print the date and time values ("invalid array index 0 for #() (should be nonnegative and <0)"); in my timezone-CET it works ok, any idea why and how can this be fixed? 11:47:28 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:54:40 mcxx: first of all, are you using the HEAD of both repos? 11:55:07 there's a local-time:+gmt-zone+ now 11:57:54 attila_lendvai: just found out there's +utc-zone+ by looking in the source 11:58:09 but I have an older version, no +gmt-zone+ 11:59:29 it works with the +utc-zone+, though I'm not sure if UTC is equal to GMT 11:59:32 blarf [n=hask@h63n7c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 11:59:48 what is once-only? 12:00:11 google says it's a macro from cl-utilities 12:00:15 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:00:20 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:00:28 or alexandria 12:00:54 blarf: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html has a bit on it. 12:01:04 mcxx: either way, if you are planning to use pg or lt then i strongly suggest to darcs pull both repos 12:01:51 Hm. Is once-only really that hard to understand? The doc suggest so. 12:02:16 brill_ [n=test@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:02:26 tic: Nope. 12:02:34 schme, it does too! :) 12:02:53 attila_lendvai: ok, doing it right now 12:02:54 Well I'm sure the doc suggests it. But it's a lie. 12:03:01 schme, indeed it is! 12:04:49 Aankh|XChat [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 12:08:13 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:23 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:16:04 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 12:16:25 can soemone post a link to the code of once-only? i cant find an example 12:17:06 your google-foo is lacking 12:17:28 google for once-only, click on the doc link in cl-utils, follow the link to the discussion on c.l.l 12:19:10 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:21:27 -!- Aankh|XChat [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:22:02 Aankh|XChat [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 12:22:03 blarf: Or click the link I pasted earlier. 12:22:46 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:28:02 Is it just me or lispbuilder-sdl's WITH-EVENTS is broken? 12:28:14 (or has incorrect documentation) 12:30:00 <_3b> i think it worked last time i tried it 12:30:24 the example on the doc does not work 12:30:33 <_3b> link? 12:30:55 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:31:55 http://lispbuilder.sourceforge.net/lispbuilder-sdl.html 12:32:05 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 12:36:13 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47CDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:36:29 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47CDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:32 <_3b> how does it fail to work? 12:36:36 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:39:21 etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:37 invalid number of arguments: 2 12:40:38 [Condition of type SB-INT:SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR] 12:40:56 apparently the macro expands to invalid code 12:41:15 <_3b> yeah, getting that too now that i downloaded current version 12:41:18 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:54 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 12:42:10 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:43:38 -!- zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-70-253-174-144.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit ["zenbalrog has no reason"] 12:43:56 -!- etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 12:45:15 -!- Aankh|XChat [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:45:18 _3b: found anything yet? 12:45:21 the semantics changed? 12:45:31 or the syntax 12:45:32 Aankh|XChat [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 12:45:53 <_3b> not sure, might try downloading it from svn 12:46:17 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:40 -!- Aankh|XChat [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit [Client Quit] 12:47:02 cracki [n=cracki@44-082.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:48:09 Aankh|XChat [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 12:49:26 <_3b> hmm, tarball doesn't seem to match svn, not sure whats happening there 12:49:32 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:10 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9A21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:50:41 Good morning, world. 12:56:07 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:35 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:57:36 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.216] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:59:49 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 13:00:52 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:02:21 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:02:25 good afternoon 13:05:38 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:07:41 -!- photon3 is now known as photon 13:07:59 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:08:08 -!- H4ns2 [n=Hans@p57BB9CFD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:54 -!- Cel` is now known as Cel 13:13:37 -!- blarf [n=hask@h63n7c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:15:19 curtosis [n=cmcurtis@c-24-126-51-106.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:11 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:16:16 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:25 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:59 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:21:09 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:22:58 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 13:23:36 it occurs to me that subtypep requires implementation of certain algorithms that really ought to be exposed as a standard library 13:24:17 I cannot say what those algorithms are, but it seems important that (subtypep 'list '(or null cons)) always answer (values t t), so there must be something special going on. 13:24:22 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:25:27 athos_ [n=philipp@p54B87494.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:14 I guess it is some sort of simple symbolic equation solver 13:28:42 anyone know why sb-ext:run-program generates newlines even when I'm handling the output elsewhere? 13:28:46 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a54-011.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:28:46 in the hour of the wolf I can say what I want to #lisp 13:28:57 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B86ADA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:31:01 S11001001, you know about this? http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/Subtypep.html 13:31:34 no, thanks for the link xan_ 13:32:30 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit ["leaving"] 13:33:01 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 13:33:44 you can also read the source code for, say, sbcl 13:33:55 i believe the logic is in late-type.lisp 13:34:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:35:01 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@p54B87494.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:35:04 the link I pasted is linked from sbcl internals wiki, so I guess it's reasonable to assume the way sbcl works is similar. Of course it's better to check the source code if you are interested in how sbcl actually works... 13:35:22 the paper is mentioned in the code, too, i just looked :) 13:35:46 lichtblau [n=user@ip-213-49-229-170.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 13:36:58 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-082.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 13:38:51 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:40:54 come on, isn't it more fun to speculate as to what's going on without actually looking? ;) 13:41:04 subtypep: FM 13:41:43 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:46:25 nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:48:44 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:11 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:53:47 Cel: what do you mean by "generates newlines"? 13:53:58 kreuter, memo from attila_lendvai: thanks again for the help, the link to the sbcl manual had the important piece of info 13:54:48 is there something like a back button when I'm jumping around using M-. ? 13:54:48 heh. RTF(eeble)M ftw! 13:54:53 M-, 13:55:09 ah, thanks. 13:59:39 neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has joined #lisp 14:00:00 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 14:02:10 *gigamonkey* <3 M-, 14:02:29 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:01 -!- curtosis [n=cmcurtis@c-24-126-51-106.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:07:04 kreuter: yea, it's like for every line the program gives as output, my repl outputs a newline 14:07:06 I'm not sure how it took me this long to look for it, really. 14:07:45 Cel: are you sure you're not doing output to *standard-output* or anything? 14:08:12 kreuter: lemme paste some things in pastebin, onesec 14:08:16 ok 14:08:20 -!- brill_ [n=test@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:09:43 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has left #lisp 14:10:38 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:46 Cel pasted "sb-ext:run-program" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70754 14:12:58 what is that (terpri) call doing there? 14:13:27 no idea, it's an example I copied from somewhere 14:13:35 do you know what terpri does? 14:13:54 I looked it up when I copied it, but I can't recall 14:14:03 why don't you have a look-see? 14:14:05 clhs terpri 14:14:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_terpri.htm 14:14:15 aha 14:14:20 yes,I just saw 14:14:21 get the idea? 14:14:26 *Cel* slaps his forehead 14:14:33 my work here is done. 14:14:40 ok thanks! it was so in my face I didn't even see it 14:16:00 er, maybe my work here isn't done 14:16:11 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:30 mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has joined #lisp 14:16:34 you're not calling process-close on the process object anywhere. 14:17:26 I haven't had any problems with processes not closing though 14:17:55 will I? I'm using it to call external programs that print some stdout stuff 14:17:55 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:18:00 you're closing the stream, but not wait()ing on the process. 14:18:29 hmm I should defenately do that when I'm starting to use it for file transfer purposes 14:18:36 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:19:23 hoist out the run-program call, and wrap the with-open-stream in an unwind-protect whose cleanup calls process-close on the process. 14:21:15 *Cel* scratches his head 14:21:24 ok lemme dig up some documentation then :) 14:22:02 (let ((proc (run-program ...))) (unwind-protect ... (process-close proc))) 14:23:06 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:23:17 -!- prip [n=_prip@host245-134-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:24:00 Xach: herep 14:24:02 ok thanks, I'll work on that 14:24:26 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:56 -!- tokenrove [n=julian@modemcable152.16-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:25:05 tokenrove [n=julian@modemcable152.16-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:26:34 -!- ivanst [i=ivans@93-138-116-5.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:27:21 prip [n=_prip@host245-134-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:28:41 ivanst [i=ivans@93-141-69-53.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:30:05 ok nice, that's working great with the unwind-protect and without the terpri, problem is the newlines are still appearing 14:30:21 jpcooper [n=justin@cpc3-broo2-0-0-cust711.renf.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:38 annotate the previous paste with the definition of parse-tapeinfo. 14:32:18 Is there some reason if I'm using Apache to proxy to Hunchentoot that my Apache logs don't show the user field for authenticated pages? 14:32:37 oh, my compilation commands aren't getting executed in slime, lemme restart this 14:33:41 -!- lichtblau [n=user@ip-213-49-229-170.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:34:00 kreuter: it's solved now, thanks a bunch, I just learned a great deal :) 14:35:07 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c-d470e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:37:03 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 14:37:25 'hello 14:37:58 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:12 Hi trebor_dki 14:51:28 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 14:53:03 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:53:09 ghost 14:53:15 err, sorry 14:54:16 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 14:54:29 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:54:37 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:54:51 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 14:55:04 Eleanore [n=a@c-d470e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:56:09 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 15:00:07 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.138] has joined #lisp 15:06:59 lichtblau [n=user@ip-213-49-229-170.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 15:11:43 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:58 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:18:45 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:19:03 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 15:19:13 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:19:34 curtosis [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.226.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:54 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:19 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:20:21 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:22:49 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 15:23:43 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:23:59 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 15:25:57 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:26:12 milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.204] has joined #lisp 15:29:29 willb [n=wibenton@wireless06.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:31:36 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 15:31:54 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 15:33:14 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:34:55 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 15:42:25 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 15:42:52 How do you know if a type is a subtype of another ? 15:43:08 subtypep 15:43:33 can anyone tell me how to get the string output of parenscript code inside parenscript? 15:43:43 kreuter: thank you! 15:44:34 auclairb: note that the second return value may be important to you. 15:45:03 so that I can put some parenscript as the value of an onlick attribute 15:45:40 jpcooper: That's the sort of thing I'd expect to find in a parenscript tutorial or manual. 15:45:51 nyef, yeah thanks for that 15:46:06 I've looked and not been able to find it 15:46:46 Hunh. 15:47:59 crod [n=cmell@d288be-152.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:49:17 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a54-011.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:49:27 -!- nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:49:28 aah wait, I have seen something at the bottom that may be relevant 15:50:19 nope, ps-inline does not do what I'd like 15:51:25 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:51 Maybe next it's time to just look at the source? 15:53:13 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:39 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-160-58.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:55:13 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 16:00:39 user___ [n=user@p54924527.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:49 jpcooper, uh, IIRC *all* parenscript functions return a string? ps, ps*, ps-inline, ... 16:01:31 but I'd like the string to be taken as a javascript string 16:01:56 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:02:04 ps-inline does that 16:03:03 right 16:03:09 I just need to do (lisp (ps-inline 16:03:20 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:04:29 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:06:51 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 16:11:10 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:11:42 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:12:04 -!- yango_ is now known as yango 16:12:12 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 16:17:33 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.2] has joined #lisp 16:17:50 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0CF08.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:22 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.222.133] has joined #lisp 16:19:35 kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:52 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E61B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:21:06 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns 16:22:59 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:58 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 16:25:24 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B827.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:35 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-096-90.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:36 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami/x-775349] has joined #lisp 16:26:37 lichtblau: very nice tool ... atdoc 16:26:40 hello 16:27:25 is it possible to specialize a method to an argument that's a list of "foo" (where foo is some other arbitrary type) 16:27:39 jrockway: no 16:27:53 ok 16:28:20 jrockway: think about it: how would that have to be checked? 16:29:19 (loop for element in that-list (when (not (eq (type-of element) 'foo)) (throw "OH NOES"))) 16:30:01 jrockway: correct. it would not scale. 16:30:24 indeed 16:30:46 but i could imagine an optimization where a list can have a "every element is of this type" flag 16:30:49 josemanuel [n=josemanu@196.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:30:52 cons can handle building that 16:31:05 (haskell can handle this) 16:31:06 jrockway: and rplaca can handle destroying it. 16:31:26 yes, you would have to reimplement a lot of functions to make this work 16:31:39 jrockway: have a look at arrays. 16:31:48 jrockway: as far as i know, haskell has strict compile time type checking, right? 16:32:23 yes, it does 16:32:25 meingbg: array element types are for performance purposes, not safety. 16:33:22 jrockway: common lisp does not have that. compile time type checking is completely optional. 16:33:47 jrockway: you're free to do that by dynamically creating your own list classes and control access better than CL's low level cons/nil 16:33:51 pkhuong: So an array defined to have elements of type A can actually have elements of type B? How then does that allow optimizing? 16:34:08 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.204] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:34:22 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:45 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:35:11 meingbg: you could have specialised arrays of octets. That saves space compared to a generic array. However, if you create an array of (signed-byte 4), you might still only get an octet array. 16:35:21 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 16:35:28 anyway, i find it amusing that i have to manually enforce correctness because automatic enforcement is "too slow" in a language that is already "too slow" (*) ;) 16:35:37 if i wanted to write incorrect code, I would use C ;) 16:36:08 meingbg: if an element type is specified, the compiler may emit run-time type checking code or just assume that the right types are used, depending on the safety settings. 16:36:12 jrockway: all the world is not haskell 16:36:19 jrockway: *yawn* 16:36:21 jrockway: then stop using low level facilities and wrap CL lists in your own abstraction. cons/nil/car/cdr isn't exactly an *abstract* data type. 16:37:14 jrockway: Your statement doesn't really make any sense to me. Common Lisp was designed to be implemented efficiently. 16:37:33 yes, but every time i tell someone to use Lisp they whine about "it's not as fast as C" 16:37:36 even though SBCL almost is 16:37:49 it is certainly fast enough for my needs 16:38:00 I value my time over the machine's 16:38:07 I don't see what random peoples' perception has to do with the design decisions made by the ANSI CL authors. 16:38:11 besides, it's mostly idle anyway. the part that need to be faster can be hand-optimized. 16:38:23 s/perception/preconception/ 16:38:42 H4ns: So I could specify an element type, add elements of the wrong type without error, then have functions called with the elements, generating errors? 16:39:38 meingbg: it all depends on your compiler. some compilers are smart enough to infer some typing errors at compile time, given enough declarations. 16:40:04 meingbg: but if the compiler does not do it, you may or may not see run-time errors. type declarations are completely optional. 16:40:59 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:20 meingbg: some compilers just ignore whatever is passed as :element-type to make-array. some try to interpret the argument, but if it is not a type, default the element type to t. common lisp is very "flexible" with respect to typing. 16:41:39 i am not complaining, mind you! 16:42:22 H4ns: It would not be correct to completely ignore the element type, given that certain specialized array representations are required. 16:42:27 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 16:43:11 chandler: You mean, NIL arrays? 16:43:16 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:43:35 chandler: yes, maybe. i admit that such bugs are usually fixed by the implementors quickly. 16:44:18 nyef: BIT, CHARACTER, and NIL, yes. 16:44:21 chandler: what i mean to express is: it is not a good idea to approach the common lisp type system with expectations grown from using a strictly typed language. 16:44:50 H4ns: It's also not good to be inaccurate when talking about the standard, too :-) 16:45:10 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:45:29 chandler: admitted. i'm glad that gross inaccuracies are corrected quickly when expressed here :) 16:45:35 What are NIL arrays? 16:46:12 meingbg: Arrays which can only hold elements of type NIL (which is to say, they can't hold anything). 16:46:45 "(make-array nil)" 16:46:50 it has 0 dimensions 16:47:06 that's different 16:47:07 foom: No, that's an array of type T with no dimensions. I've used those before. 16:47:14 They can hold a single element. 16:47:16 oh, right. sorry. :) 16:47:36 so many corner cases i got the wrong one. :) 16:47:50 (Okay, technically what I've used were the result of (make-array nil :element-type '(unsigned-byte 32)), but same general principle.) 16:48:08 what's the inference that implies that arrays of type NIL are mandatory? 16:48:15 yeah, why is that required? 16:48:16 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:48:18 clhs 15.1.2.1 16:48:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/15_aba.htm 16:48:28 kreuter: Something to do with the type lattice and u-a-e-t, wasn't it? 16:48:29 specbot? 16:48:32 oh, slooow 16:48:43 the upgraded element types form a lattice, yes 16:48:57 why can't it upgrade to element-type t? 16:49:19 because the spec says it can't? 16:49:21 foom: Because it has to upgrade to the most specific type available. 16:49:25 What are NIL array's used for, if they can't hold anything? 16:49:35 showing off how pedantic the reader is 16:49:39 meingbg: taking up space 16:49:54 they don't take up much space! 2 words each 16:49:58 is an impl not allowed to have only element-type t arrays? 16:50:08 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:08 foom: no, strings and bit-vectors are mandated 16:50:16 Xof: Has to be more than that, surely. Can't you create a multidimensional NIL array? 16:50:34 Xof: okay, but an implementor could have them be actually adjustable. 16:50:39 foom: correct. CHARACTER and BIT specializations are... what Xof said 16:50:47 (and since character and bit are disjoint, the unintended consequence is that arrays specialized on nil must also be supported) 16:50:57 ah, okay, so because those are mandated, you need to at least have a (or character bit) array to upgrade nil to? 16:51:08 (and character bit) 16:52:12 err... 16:53:49 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:53:49 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:54:48 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 16:55:27 right. if (subtypep 'nil 'character) is true [it is] then (subtype (upgraded-array-element 'nil) (upgraded-array-element 'character)) 16:55:40 and also for 'bit instead of character 16:56:21 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:14 antifuchs: are you here? I need some git help 16:57:35 (specifically some git / cvs interoperability help) 16:57:47 if I was writing an implementation I'd be sure tempted to just forbid creation of them. :) 16:59:38 elurin [n=user@85.96.232.164] has joined #lisp 17:00:01 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 17:00:10 I think it'd be reasonable to forbid the creation of instances with dimensions, but (make-array nil :element-type nil) doesn't seem to have any obvious problems. 17:00:11 -!- andrewy [i=andrewy@209.126.180.153] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:00:24 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:30 chandler: Aref is defined to work on zero-dimensional arrays. 17:00:38 you mean (make-array 0 :element-type nil) 17:00:54 Xof: Er, that's it. 17:00:58 [trivium: that should print as "" in a conforming CL] 17:01:04 And '(0 0 0 ...) 17:01:10 Heh. Right, print-read consistency. 17:01:13 rpg [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has joined #lisp 17:01:32 (unless *print-readably* is true() 17:01:51 Oh? 17:02:03 andrewy [i=andrewy@209.126.180.153] has joined #lisp 17:02:27 nil arrays are strings, but I don't expect "" to read in as an array of element-type nil 17:02:58 if print-readably is true, I'd expect (print (make-array 0 :element-type nil)) to signal 17:03:00 Yeah, but... doesn't that imply things about print-read consistency of base-strings vs. strings? 17:03:34 yes: that consistency is not trivial, and that's why *print-readably* signals 17:03:59 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:04:20 ... I think I'm going to bow out and go back to overdesigning this function for splitting my arm port log into entries. 17:04:36 -!- joebrunner [n=joe@206.81.49.171] has quit ["leaving"] 17:05:00 hey look someone even wrote it up as a proposal http://www.cliki.net/Issue%20ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE-NIL 17:05:46 xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:07:47 foom: Ooh, I hope the committee adopts that in the next revision. 17:07:59 -!- lichtblau [n=user@ip-213-49-229-170.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:08:01 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:15 fd-stream question --- I'm trying to buff the make-fd-stream docstring for SBCL. I believe it is correct to say that the :buffering argument only affects OUTPUT, but wanted to check before proposing a patch. 17:08:18 sellout: hah 17:09:13 hi guys, is it possible to access a global variable from package foo in package bar? 17:09:25 milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.204] has joined #lisp 17:09:32 inetic: Yes. foo:*some-global* should work. Or foo::*some-global*. 17:09:41 foo::*my-variable*, or foo:*my-variable* if it is exported. 17:10:36 nyef, chandler, thanks, will try 17:12:40 Any matlab users in the house? 17:13:04 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:17 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3997.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 17:14:33 maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #lisp 17:14:41 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:00 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 17:19:40 inetic pasted "can't get a value of a hash table in different package" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70768 17:19:42 jjbrunne [n=joe@206.81.49.171] has joined #lisp 17:19:46 rpg pasted "Proposed docstring for make-fd-stream in SBCL" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70770 17:20:25 <_3b> inetic: wrong 'goo try 'foo::goo 17:20:46 mejja: Depends 17:21:06 _3b: that was it! :-) thanks 17:21:09 mejja: What's your question? 17:21:15 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:35 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.222.133] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:21:39 More specifically I need CL/Scheme versions of a few matlab functions involving complex branch cuts. 17:22:23 <_3b> does :element-type :default not make a bivalent stream for OPEN in sbcl? 17:22:53 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:54 _3b: it does. what's the issue? 17:23:15 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 17:23:25 <_3b> chandler: rpg's paste claim's it makes a character stream if i read it right 17:23:28 rpg's "proposed docstring" claims that it doesn't 17:23:41 Oh 17:24:12 The docstring is supposed to say clearly that :default is a bivalent stream, whereas for open you get a character stream according to ANSI. 17:24:54 If it's not saying that clearly, I should buff it. I took the comment, which said "acts like OPEN," and tried to clarify that the :default behavior is NOT like OPEN.... 17:24:55 ok, but both halves of the second clause in that sentence are wrong 17:25:09 <_3b> rpg: :default doesn't mean character in ANSI either 17:25:12 but the :DEFAULT behaviour _is_ like OPEN 17:25:15 mejja: I have no clue, sorry. 17:25:31 mejja: which functions, and why? 17:25:44 Oh, yuck. So this is another case where "the default" is different from :default? 17:25:51 <_3b> right 17:26:07 -!- neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has quit ["Abandonando"] 17:26:54 but I think this is still not parallel to OPEN, where the default (as opposed to :default) is to get a character stream, but in make-fd-stream, the default is :default, which is NOT a character stream. 17:26:55 So what I want is a little compatibility package for trivia such as ATAN and friends. 17:28:01 rpg annotated #70770 with "is this better for external-format?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70770#1 17:28:11 and do the built-in Common Lisp functions have different branch cuts? 17:28:38 rpg annotated #70770 with "sorry, cut and paste error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70770#2 17:29:51 <_3b> rpg: i'd either put everything starting at except into the parens, or not use parens for (as for OPEN) 17:30:22 Xof: Try (ATAN #C(0 -2)). In matlab: ATAN (-2i) gives ans = 1.5708 - 0.5493i. 17:30:34 are you sure the default value is :default? 17:30:44 mejja: (atan #C(1 1)) works for complex numbers, but I don't know how they handle branch cuts... anything you could do manually? 17:30:45 rpg: are you confusing external-format and element-type? 17:31:12 rpg: because as far as I can tell all your rewrites are completely wrong 17:31:16 Xof: Quite possibly. Let me look again. 17:31:46 Xof: You are right. Let me go back to the drawing board and propose a new rewrite. 17:31:47 mejja: yes, and? I get values approximating that 17:31:53 meingbg: right, ATAN (1+1i) in matlab agrees with Cl/Scheme 17:32:53 (atan #c(0 -2)) => #C(1.5707964 -0.54930615); (atan #c(0d0 -2d0)) => #C(1.5707963267948966d0 -0.5493061443340549d0) 17:34:06 Please dont tell me Scheme and CL disagrees here... 17:34:08 rpg annotated #70770 with "Had external-format and element-type confused" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70770#3 17:34:45 mejja: I thought R5RS just pointed at CLtL2 for the branch cuts, actually. 17:34:49 mejja: If you need a custom branch cut, you should be able to fix that manually. 17:35:19 Would anyone like to propose glosses for any of the arguments I have not covered? 17:35:37 mejja: "The above specification follows [27], which in turn cites [19]; refer to these sources for more detailed discussion of branch cuts, boundary conditions, and implementation of these functions." 17:35:37 mejja: [27] is CLtL2. 17:36:07 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:36:09 *meingbg* goes idle 17:36:53 Xof --- is that any better? 17:37:02 anybody has some hints what it is and where i can find it in the sbcl sources: # 17:37:33 rpg: no, it's still backwards 17:37:34 it's a thing that contains a mutable closed over variable 17:37:48 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:05 element-type's argument is the thing which decides whether something is binary, character or bivalent 17:38:17 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:38:22 external-format is "how do I go from characters to bits" 17:38:38 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:39:21 Xof: I'm sorry to be confused, but the default element-type is 'base-char (is that acceptably the same as 'character, or should I note that as a divergence)? 17:39:25 <_3b> :element-type does appear to have a different default from OPEN though, base-char instead of character 17:40:16 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:40:30 I suspect that they are sufficiently equivalent (I think that the upgraded stream element type of base-char is character) 17:40:57 the point I was trying to make is that a :default argument to external-format does not give you a multivalent stream 17:41:59 jsnell: if i want to walk the closed over objects of a closure... is it ok to loop below (sb-kernel:get-closure-length object) and (sb-kernel:%closure-index-ref object i)? or should i do some more indirections, e.g. to skip over these value cells? i want to have a function that walks the reachable objects from a root and calculates the size they occupy 17:42:18 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:23 Xof: You are right. I was still confused. Element-type :default gives a multivalent stream. 17:42:34 jsnell: code and/or doc pointers are also welcome 17:43:53 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:45:20 *attila_lendvai* finds %closure-values 17:45:40 *_3b* wonders what :element-type NIL should do 17:46:25 is there a way to strip off the foo from a foo:bar symbol? 17:46:40 akhilleus [n=joe@206.81.49.171] has joined #lisp 17:46:46 rpg annotated #70770 with "another try, thanks to Xof" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70770#4 17:46:52 inetic: learn enough about the package system to understand that that question doesn't make sense 17:47:34 Can anyone suggest how I might expand on external-format? I don't understand the code sufficiently to be able to say what happens when you pass :default. 17:47:41 (do you want not to have to type the "foo:" in some context, or not to have it printed in some context, or what?) 17:48:21 attila_lendvai: more directly, you can sb-kernel:value-cell-ref. 17:48:29 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:48:38 -!- jjbrunne [n=joe@206.81.49.171] has quit ["leaving"] 17:48:50 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:49:19 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:49:28 jrockway: maybe you're interested in Qi 17:49:39 sort of 17:49:42 the author seems kind of weird 17:50:01 <_3b> rpg: don't think you need the stuff about base-char, looks like it is treated as character 17:50:14 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.244.156] has joined #lisp 17:50:17 Xof: I believe it does make sense (in a context I haven't presented), I would like to not to print the foo: prefix but simple (:use :foo) doesn't do the trick here (I think), I'm creating my own embedded language and am filling up a hash with symbol keys, now in a separate package I create a tree structure that uses theese symbols 17:50:19 or ML 17:50:31 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:50:48 if you want static typing, OCaml is way cool. And if you *love* static typing, go Haskell or Cayenne. 17:51:00 i do like both OCaml and Haskell 17:51:04 but the syntax is so bad 17:51:12 _3b: I'm sorry --- what do you mean by "treated as character"? If that's true, is there any reason not to have the code modified to replace 'base-char with 'character, per the spec? 17:51:16 the reason it doesn't make sense is that the package identifier is a part of the symbol 17:51:17 i've also looked at liskell, which is cute 17:51:19 there was a Lisp-syntax Haskell, somewhere 17:51:22 yeah 17:51:32 dunno, i like CL better for some reason 17:51:42 oh well, so you do! 17:51:42 or rather the symbol has a (possibly null) package, and "stripping" it doesn't make sense 17:51:52 if you want to print just the name of the symbol, print the (symbol-name symbol) 17:52:00 you can have your own CL extensions to do what you want, if Qi is not for you. 17:52:10 attila_lendvai: you might be interested in (really not polished, beware). 17:52:23 plenty of typed Lisp variants in the PLT system, too 17:53:11 <_3b> rpg: set-fd-stream-routines maps any subtype of character to character as far as i can tell 17:53:37 <_3b> rpg: changing the default seems resonable to me, but i'm not an sbcl hacker :) 17:53:45 _3b: Neither am I. 17:54:03 If I was, I wouldn't need the docstring ;-) 17:55:05 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["fuckfuckfuckfuckfuck"] 17:55:18 geekux [n=geekux@217.5.184.10] has joined #lisp 17:55:59 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:56:42 Xof: great, thanks, (symbol-name symbol) does the trick. 17:57:43 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 17:58:40 BlueBlazer [n=tomdeben@75.149.54.1] has joined #lisp 17:58:53 pkhuong: thanks! 17:59:50 Xof: in case you were interested, this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/70768 is kind of the subproblem I had, where I didnt want to type foo::goo all the time. thansk again! 18:00:36 rpg: I would prefer that make-fd-stream remain undocumented. 18:00:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 18:01:06 weren't you more interested in the behavior of socket-make-stream? 18:01:28 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.244.156] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:41 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:01:42 kreuter: yes, but the documentation for socket-make-stream just deferred to make-fd-stream... 18:01:48 -!- BlueBlazer [n=tomdeben@75.149.54.1] has left #lisp 18:02:06 pkhuong: am i wrong if i have the feeling that many of those constructs should be part of sb-introspect? 18:02:06 I think it'd be better to document socket-make-stream without any reference to make-fd-stream. 18:02:18 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 18:02:52 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 18:02:56 (basically, I don't think it's a desirable to imply that anything about the fd-streams API is meant for external use.) 18:05:03 kreuter: OK, that sounds like a reasonable position. Let me look at that --- I was just building my understanding of s-m-s from m-f-s, and writing as I went. 18:05:44 There's nothing like expanding a 24-line function to 93 lines and having it work the first time. 18:05:52 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:19 attila_lendvai: no idea. It's a huge hack for now; maybe once someone has a better idea of what and how things should be exposed (e.g. it's probably a better idea to be able to work on some sort of on-disk dump) 18:08:40 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 18:08:55 pkhuong: i was thinking in an iterate-descendant-objects function that has two modes: :retained :reachable, and using that implement something like your count-words function 18:09:16 when implementing a lisp for a high-level VM that only has memory allocation for its native types, and no generic malloc. Would it be insane to represent Lisp conses (and thus compound forms, to implement macros) as a massive array and cdr-encode that to your heart's content? or is it better to use the generic and HL list datatype from the its crappy non-lispy library? (stupid question, i know) 18:09:17 fusss, memo from michaelw: Duncan Rose started to port DUIM to CL some time back: . I am not sure what became of it, though. 18:10:22 pkhuong: do you think if i added something to sb-introspect (unexported) then it would be included? so that we can start polishing it together... cmm also needs something like this 18:11:51 not that i have any time for that now... :( 18:12:08 I really don't know. I'm not too good at thinking about that sort of thing, and I won't have much hack/brain time for ~5 weeks. 18:12:51 well, thanks for the file anyway. if i'll have to debug something for which this is needed i'll start hacking on something in sb-introspect 18:13:27 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D034.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:14:18 <_3b> fusss: i've just been using a class for CONS so far, haven't really done enough with it to be interesting though 18:14:19 fusss: it really depends what your goals are. 18:14:28 Efficiency? 18:14:31 Elegance? 18:14:41 Ease of later porting to another language? 18:15:30 You might also want to think about: does the target VM have garbage collection and are you planning on depending on it. 18:15:46 If you use giant arrays you may also have to write your own GC. 18:16:09 gigamonkey: it has a garbage collector, a sucky one, and it's stupid not to depend on it since it makes FFI to its native methods tad bit harder 18:16:43 Right. So if you're using the underlying garbage collector then you probably want to create objects that can be GC'd by it. 18:16:55 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:55 fusss: can't you use, e.g., n+1 cell arrays to implement your objects? Type info in the 0th, rest in the n remaining cells. 18:17:26 If you pack a bunch of Lisp objects into one array (as seen by the VM and its GC) then they can't be GC'd individually. 18:17:33 pkhuong: Heh. I tried that trick for Smalltalk-in-Lisp at one point. 18:18:05 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #lisp 18:18:35 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-181-175-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:47 -!- nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:19:10 the bloody VM has everything but conses; you can do primitive structure sharing with deep copying and embedded one into each other. it's actually not sharing, more like a clean functional memory model :-P 18:19:39 fusss: a cons is just a random structure with two members. 18:20:32 fusss: what VM is it? 18:20:42 pkhuong: i know, but the VM will not let you share pointers, it you append one list into another it's actually a copy. 18:20:47 gigamonkey: Flash AVM2 18:21:08 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:22:11 it would be really inefficient to represent conses as an object with a car and cdr property 18:22:15 fusss: that'll be a problem for everything, not just conses, if you allow pointer comparisons or side effects. Either you bite the bullet and embrace the purity (... and algorithmic inefficiency), or you lose later on. 18:22:20 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-de05c8c2b9549629] has joined #lisp 18:22:33 hmmm 18:22:47 *rsynnott_* wonders about the eventual impact of LAGUAGE_X-in-LANGUAGE-Y 18:22:58 smalltalk in lisp in erlang in pascal! 18:23:21 brb later 18:23:24 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 18:23:48 fusss: it's either "r" or "later" ;-) 18:24:48 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:24:52 rsynnott_: This is like those maniacs who run a PC emulator in mac-on-linux in linux-mac68k in a mac emulator running on an arm emulator on a PC... 18:25:26 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.244.156] has joined #lisp 18:25:31 (Or was mac-on-linux the PPC thing? I forget.) 18:25:43 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:51 SheepShaver! 18:26:03 ... Wasn't that for amiga? 18:26:18 But that's a good point, too... 18:26:20 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.244.156] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:26:57 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:05 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.244.156] has joined #lisp 18:27:33 all running on a CLR-based JVM! 18:27:50 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D034.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:54 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:38 -!- cmm [n=cmm@79.176.0.19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:29:55 -!- lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:20 lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:30 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:34:23 Is there a map-like function that works on nested lists ? 18:34:46 you could flatten the lists and use map on that? 18:35:08 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70dddb.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:09 tic: I need to keep the structure 18:35:17 probably need to write your own then 18:35:21 auclairb: No. But it's not hard to write. 18:35:23 Hm. There are tree ops. Is there a maptree? 18:35:38 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176023269.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 18:36:10 *rsynnott_* suspects a maptree would be problematic because there are a few different things the user could reasonably expect it to do 18:36:49 True. 18:37:04 Obviously, my definition, at the time of writing, would be the correct one. 18:37:31 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:37:52 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 18:37:56 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:01 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:04 and as for having a descriptive function name for exactly what it does, well, even with fuzzy complete, the mind boggles 18:38:22 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 18:38:55 so you'd want to do it in-place or copy, keep/lose structure, what else? 18:41:10 tic: how about the treatment of NIL? 18:41:15 copy, keep structure, (maptree (lambda (x) (+ x x)) '(1 (2 3) 4)) => (2 (4 6) 8) 18:41:29 I.e. if your tree is (1 . nil) should fn be called on 1 and NIL or just 1? 18:42:03 And if you say just 1, then what about if your tree is (1 nil 2 . nil) (i.e. (1 nil 2)) 18:42:05 gigamonkey, that's a proper list, not a tree! *holding hands over ears* 18:42:15 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:42:24 No, that's an improper list. 18:42:30 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:42:33 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Client Quit] 18:42:37 Er, sorry. it is. You're right. 18:42:53 But I see what you maen. 18:43:00 (1 . nil) == (1) ? 18:43:04 auclairb: yes. 18:43:07 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 18:45:10 perhaps this isn't the write question, but has anyone used vecto with clim, or is there a vecto-like interface down in the guts of clim somewhere? 18:45:14 s/write/right/ 18:45:22 damn homonyms 18:46:20 slyrus_, beach is talking about cl-vectors and clim. related? 18:46:34 you could probaby make an image with vecto and then display it through clim 18:47:04 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:47:49 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 18:48:40 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:01 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 18:49:48 tic: I think the problem is there are two ways to think of structures made from cons cells as being trees. 18:49:49 nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:12 (left . right) or (parent child1 child2 ... childn) 18:50:38 gigamonkey, oh, didn't even think of that. Intuitively, I think I'd implement the first one. 18:51:00 Yet for Lisp source code we use the latter. 18:51:04 (parent child ...) notation is more declarative than than not. 18:51:06 Yup. 18:51:09 gigamonkey: just two? 18:51:11 at LEAST two ways 18:51:21 adeht: what rsynnott_ said. 18:51:37 you could also have a non-binary tree as (child1 . child2 . child3) or similar 18:52:00 PLT scheme implemented that for a sort of infix syntax 18:52:01 gigamonkey, how would Lisp written in the first notation look like? You'd have to decide on traversal order and crap like that. 18:52:03 you might also want your maptree to be aware of the structure, or even potentially to modify it 18:52:05 (1 . + . 2) 18:52:08 rsynnott_: what's that, you mean (child1 . (child2 . child3)) ? 18:52:15 sorry, yep 18:52:26 hmm, no, maybe not 18:52:28 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has joined #lisp 18:52:33 tcr, basically only for maths that's interesting, or can you think of anything else? (I can't) 18:52:51 (child1 child2 child3), perhaps 18:53:36 rsynnott_: isn't that sort of the same as (parent child1 child2 child3) which is also (parent . (child1 child2 child3)) 18:54:09 hmm, I suppose 18:54:17 *rsynnott_* is sleepy, and brain not working properly 18:54:35 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 18:54:41 kreuter: Got some time now for the reader patches? 18:59:17 cpape` [n=user@p5484C93A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:35 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:59:51 -!- LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:00:12 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:00:17 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 19:00:52 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:01:22 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 19:02:26 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:02:42 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 19:03:35 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [Client Quit] 19:03:42 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 19:03:57 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:04:06 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Client Quit] 19:04:32 -!- rsynnott_ is now known as rsynnott 19:05:09 -!- phao [n=phao@20158154007.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:11:15 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 19:12:01 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:12:38 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 19:14:19 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-103-31.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:15:50 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-103-31.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:46 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 19:17:35 -!- cpape [n=user@p5484C361.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:38 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:15 Guest85413 [n=patrick@74.167.137.69] has joined #lisp 19:27:45 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:29:36 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.244.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:33:11 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47CDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:00 jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:41:42 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:45:22 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:41 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:46:50 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:47:26 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47CDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:48:11 Hi, I'm using SBCL+Slime on windows and I noticed a couple of things 19:48:27 SBCL when you call 'read-line it returns the ^M 19:48:45 I mean puts that in the string, i.e. it seems to not be set for the Windows OS somehow 19:48:49 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:18 The other thing is in Emacs every time I have a lisp exception the restart menu comes up but when I press a restart the window goes away but after that the lisp buffer is frozen 19:50:15 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-25-79.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:46 hi, i am looking for a table of sbcl char-codes like #\space and #\enter 19:50:52 jbjohns: that's because you're killing the main sbcl thread when you jam your fingers at the first restart you figure you'll press. 19:51:19 I don't understand? 19:51:21 jbjohns: read the restarts, pick the right one. If you kill the thread, you'll have to M-x s-r-i-lisp 19:51:37 I've used lisp before, I know which restart to pick. ;) 19:52:05 I saw someone else run into what you're describing. They were picking the wrong restart and clobbering their inferior-lisp. 19:52:06 I pick abort to top level in this case 19:52:13 sbcl on windows works different 19:52:14 <_3b> restarts work for me, what version of slime/sbcl? 19:52:31 what's the easiest way to tell? I picked a link that claimed to be the latest CVS 19:52:49 jbjohns: for which one? slime or sbcl? 19:53:05 <_3b> date at the top of buffer when you start slime for slime, (lisp-implementation-version) for sbcl 19:53:28 slime 19:53:46 doesn't pressing #\q usually do the right thing? 19:54:20 1.0.22 sbcl 19:54:36 ah date, sec 19:54:51 ; SLIME 2008-11-02 19:54:53 can anyone tell me what the char representingt the up-arrow is in sbcl? like #\space for the space key 19:55:07 <_3b> krumholt: there probably isn't one 19:55:26 <_3b> krumholt: you need to talk to the OS or window system for stuff like that 19:56:11 ah, and sbcl is giving me a style warning for a function that doesn't exist. Well, it doesn't exist, it's a method 19:56:18 Unless you mean the up-arrow used for returning values in Smalltalk, in which case it's #\^. 19:56:28 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:56:43 jbjohns: And methods are usually installed as part of a generic function... 19:56:51 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 19:57:44 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:57:49 nyef: I know, but sbcl doesn't see it somehow 19:57:51 that's why it's just a style warning -- sbcl is creating a default generic function to bind that to, but often that's not intended 19:57:54 but I run the code and it works 19:58:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:58:14 Ah, right, that situation. 19:58:15 but slime shows the underline at the call site, not at any definitions 19:58:19 often it's a case of a misspelling or some such so it warns you 19:58:35 so I can use defgeneric to get rid of it? 19:58:43 ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:58:52 if that's the real error 19:59:10 read up on the PCL sections on generic functions 19:59:13 <_3b> sure you aren't compiling a call before you define the function? 19:59:13 p.s. for the slime hanging issue: I always get "; pipelined request... (swank:listener-eval "" when I try to do something in the sbcl buffer 19:59:18 And you probably want to put the defgeneric -before- the defmethod, otherwise it'll get pissy at you for that, too... 19:59:27 wavell2003 [n=watson@6.sub-70-197-207.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:32 _3b: No, I moved the order when I saw this error. No help 19:59:40 -!- wavell2003 [n=watson@6.sub-70-197-207.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 20:00:02 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 20:02:56 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:43 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:03:47 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 20:06:29 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:08:06 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:10:30 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Success] 20:11:39 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:12:48 damn, i've modified the sbcl reader to read "foo" into simple-base-string when possible, but cxml chokes on it, because (subtypep 'simple-base-string '(simple-array character (*))) is nil... 20:13:39 iow, (subtypep '(simple-array base-char (*)) '(simple-array character (*))) => nil 20:13:55 which is no surprise, but... 20:14:58 Yeah, languages with typed arrays really ought to have read-only and write-only array types 20:15:13 I don't really understand why nobody does this 20:15:28 python does it for strings. 20:15:30 (immutable) 20:16:21 well, cxml could also avoid that woodoo with rods and runes... 20:17:46 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:18:42 right, but I want to be able to say: (subtypep '(simple-array (readable-as base-char) (*)) '(simple-array (readable-as character) (*))) => t or something like that. 20:19:37 cl's type system is far from that... if i had to pick subsystems for redesign it would be among the first ones 20:20:17 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 20:20:52 ok, the defgeneric did fix the style warning. Thanks 20:25:38 Does anyone have a good solution for having multiple SBCL's installed? I have a stable 1.0.22 I mostly use, but I would also like to have a CVS copy. Running from the source position seems to lead to anomalies with the contrib stuff. 20:25:46 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.167.223] has quit ["Induhvidual Quote: “The smell of indifference was deafening.”"] 20:27:25 rpg: install it somewhere 20:27:36 rpg: use it through a run-sbcl.sh 20:27:46 that's what i do at least 20:28:11 attila_lendvai: I tried doing that, and when I did, it tried to rebuild sb-bsd-sockets, rather than running a canned version, which caused it to collide with my asdf configuration badly. 20:28:18 attila_lendvai: That's what led to my question. 20:28:33 fe[nl]ix 20:28:56 rpg: did you try the run-sbcl.sh in the sbcl cvs checkout? 20:29:09 attila_lendvai: yes, that's what led to the question. 20:29:54 slyrus: I'm aware of no such integration between clim and vecto 20:30:15 not is anything in clim a substitute for anything but the most trivial drawing operations 20:31:25 attila_lendvai: maybe I'm asking the wrong question. Maybe all I really want is to know how to avoid having run-sbcl.sh recompile the contribs on startup. 20:32:04 rpg: that's probably due to $SBCL_HOME is wrong 20:33:15 rpg: this is what i use. you may need to tailor it for your needs, but it works for me... http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=cl-dwim-environment;a=headblob;f=/bin/run-sbcl 20:33:19 -!- Guest85413 [n=patrick@74.167.137.69] has left #lisp 20:33:37 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:02 rpg: a more complicated system would be to install each sbcl version somewhere like ~/Software/opt/sbcl-$VERSION then make a wrapper ~/Software/opt/sbcl-$VERSION that contains "env PATH=$HOME/Software/opt/sbcl-$VERSION/bin:$PATH SBCL_HOME=$HOME/Software/opt/sbcl-$VERSION/lib sbcl" and add $HOME/Software/bin to your path 20:39:09 fe[nl]ix: What seems confusing to me is that my installed copy of sbcl finds its sb-bsd-sockets binaries w/o any trouble. But when running my not-installed copy, require seems to fall through to loading sockets by ASDF. 20:40:14 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 20:40:44 The only thing I can think of is that this relates to the installed core and conrib systems being together, but the not-installed core is in output/ while the contrib is in contrib/.... 20:41:15 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 20:48:37 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:21 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 20:50:29 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:51:19 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:53:00 rpg: I have a combination of tricks for this problem. 20:53:13 No, that's clearly not it, because run-sbcl is pointing to the core explicitly, and making the contrib be SBCL_HOME. 20:53:40 You running an old asdf-binary-locations or something? 20:53:46 sb-bsd-sockets will always get loaded via ASDF. 20:54:20 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 20:55:20 jestocost [n=cmell@d288be-152.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:55:35 Hrm... Doesn't look like there's anything in PCL or PAIP on state machines... 20:55:37 fe[nl]ix: your suggestion above is basically what I do, modulo that the wrapper figures out the version number by looking at argv[0]. 20:55:56 nyef: writing a book on DSLs? =p 20:55:57 -!- crod [n=cmell@d288be-152.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:15 hefner: Writing some parsing code. 20:56:22 me too! 20:56:29 lemoinem [n=swoog@x-132-204-243-237.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 20:56:37 joel raymont wrote state machine implementation for clos 20:56:39 rpg: for debugging, try ensuring that --no-userinit gets supplied to your SBCL executable. 20:56:42 it was on his blog 20:56:51 -!- Aankh|XChat [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:56:56 xristos: sounds complicated. 20:57:14 nyef pasted "some parsing code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70783 20:57:49 nyef: I think that's exactly it --- my attempt to load sb-bsd-sockets blows up, and I suspect it's asdf-binary-locations that does it. What I don't understand is why it does NOT blow up when running /usr/local/bin/sbcl 20:58:05 kreuter: right, with symlinks and argv[0] munging you can have a single wrapper 20:58:17 rpg: also make sure you are using the latest asdf-b-l 20:58:27 rpg: Because there's a special hack in it for SBCL contribs? Or, alternately, because you have a version prior to said special hack? 20:58:30 attila_lendvai: OK, thanks, will do. 20:58:31 hd_ [n=hd_@253.176.233.220.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:58:44 nyef any reason to use labels instead of normal functions ? 20:58:52 i see that a lot 20:58:55 xristos: Because it's intended to be rather self-contained? 20:59:15 And if I used normal functions, I'd need to be maintianing more state explicitly. 21:00:24 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:00:49 hefner annotated #70783 with "completely unrelated parsing code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70783#1 21:01:06 rvirding_ [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:42 hefner: Yeah, looks like you've got more structure to work with than I do. 21:03:15 yeah, not much to it. 21:03:56 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47CDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:04:46 rvirding__ [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:04:48 I've got at least one more parser to write on this project, and it'll probably end up as a two-layer thing, as the format is defined in terms of lines grouped in certain classifications and then specific character constructs within certain groups. 21:04:53 Thank you very much, nyef and attila_lendvai --- it /was/ an old version of asdf-binary locations. 21:05:41 -!- rvirding__ [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:06:03 rvirding__ [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:17 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.232.164] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:06:39 -!- rvirding__ [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:06:43 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47CDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:28 hefner: Would you say that the decision between using labels and using separate functions is based partly on the size of the grammar and partly on how "self-contained" you view the parser structure? 21:08:53 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3997.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:11:23 mib_noe7qd [i=d8f90eee@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d103704944d1459c] has joined #lisp 21:11:55 well, there's no point in polluting the outside namespace if you can't use them anywhere else and the number of labels isn't unreasonable, and sometimes maybe having to add an arg or two would negate the advantage of defining a short helper anyway 21:12:57 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 21:13:27 [1]edon [n=edon@82.114.94.0] has joined #lisp 21:13:41 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-219.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:14:14 -!- rvirding_ [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:14:27 HET2 [n=diman@e195-018.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 21:14:55 Right, and then if your grammar is complex anyway (say, C or Pascal grammar) you'll probably just have a separate package for the parser anyway. 21:15:21 what book do i read if i need a quick introduction to common lisp idiosyncrasies? 21:15:33 hmm, yeah. I think if I got this right, the labels ought to read like a bnf. 21:15:44 *hefner* should find some more things to parse 21:15:55 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Success] 21:15:55 -!- [1]edon is now known as edon 21:16:15 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 21:16:20 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:18:45 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 21:20:04 did gigamonkey totally ignore defstruct in PCL or is it just me? :-P 21:20:50 defstruct is well worth ignoring. 21:20:58 HET2: you have to hack lisp long enough to care for the idiosyncrasies, i think :-) 21:21:25 Isn't our standard advice here "don't use defstruct, use defclass"? 21:21:38 bah. current source file - 785 lines. 5 defstructs, zero defclasses. 21:22:03 hefner: Our other standard advice is apparently "do as we say, not as we do". 21:22:21 we should say more, then. 21:22:51 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-25-79.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:23:12 considering I am still new to CLOS and at the risk of getting my eyes and ears clawed out... what exactly are the pros and cons of defstruct? 21:23:25 why do we not want to use it? 21:23:36 merlincorey: It pollutes namespace 21:23:53 pros: Can have typechecked slots, and can have unboxed storage for some slot data types. 21:24:05 nyef: those are sbcl-specific. 21:24:11 merlincorey: basically, defstruct is probably a premature optimization. 21:24:13 ach so; that's a generally understandable reason... but in small programs not that big of a deal? @ p_l 21:24:13 <_3b> main pros i can think of are possible performance gain, and being able to store it as a list 21:24:15 Fair enough. 21:24:21 please call me when you can map CLOS to C structs via FFI 21:24:51 fusss: that would be tasty! 21:24:56 _3b: serialization becomes moot if your lisp image is built with Elephant eh? 21:25:00 trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-224-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:03 fusss: yes well but where would i go to get started with common lisp 21:25:05 fusss: What sort of mapping? 21:25:14 kreuter: in light of _3b's comment, that is certainly a worry 21:25:16 Pros: minimal typing, accessor names are given logical names automatically. 21:25:18 fusss: for example is http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ somewhat reasonable? 21:25:39 The primary con for me is redefinition semantics. 21:25:42 <_3b> fusss: i'm thinking more of loading them from other sources 21:25:46 HET2: that is THE book, but it's about pragmatic CL, not "idiosyncrasies" 21:25:47 merlincorey: abstractly, defstruct-defined types support only single inheritance, while CLOS classes support multiple inheritance. 21:25:49 I've trashed a running lisp a few times redefining structs. 21:25:59 If I have some little tuple of a few data items, I could write a defstruct on one line, or six or seven lines of defclass crud 21:26:20 for development purposes, defstruct doesn't standardly support redefinitions, while defclass does. 21:26:25 kreuter: well, before venturing over this way I was all over the OO map - isn't it generally accepted that there are very few cases one needs multiple inheritence? 21:26:29 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:26:40 fusss: i am sorry for inappropriate terminology 21:26:42 merlincorey: I don't know any generals, so I can't answer that. 21:26:52 aah, redefinitions would be an issue in the iteritive development of lisp 21:26:55 for me at least, defstruct is a stepping snow in wrapping FFIs; you can layer CLOS on top of that later for a clean interface 21:26:56 kreuter: lol :) 21:26:56 I think it's generally accepted by the ruby and smalltalk folks ;) 21:27:00 I'll speculate that if you're using inheritance with defstruct, it really might be premature optimization :) 21:27:14 Heh. One of my parsers has a defstruct (:type list) almost solely to get the constructor -- the end-use just destructures the entire thing anyway. 21:27:16 HET2: nothing to apologize for, dig in and have fun :-) 21:27:23 fusss: thx 21:27:39 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:28:17 fusss: You know, you could possible do something clever with the MOP to wrap things directly instead. 21:29:05 nyef: also, am i mistaken or does defstruct enforce/take-advantage-of the :type specification for its slots? 21:29:07 thanks for the overview; my conclusion from this is if it's small and simple, defstruct could be appropriate, but in general defclass is more robust (and also verbose). Is this a fair assessment? 21:29:23 fusss: It's implementation-dependent. 21:29:27 var parser=new DOMParser(); <-- would anyone know how to do that in parenscript? 21:29:38 fusss: But, yes, it's easier for an implementation to do so with structs than with classes. 21:29:53 merlincorey: deflcass will generate readers and writers for every slot with just a slot option :-) very sweet thang. 21:30:18 merlincorey: I find defclass to be a simple approach, in general. 21:30:36 -!- tokenrove [n=julian@modemcable152.16-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:30:43 alright, back to the vm hacking 21:30:56 hehe have fun, fusss; thanks for the info :) 21:30:59 *merlincorey* will stew on it 21:31:08 nyef annotated #70783 with "A small fragment of a larger parser" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70783#2 21:31:09 This weekend perhaps I shall finally venture into CLOS 21:31:10 <_3b> fusss: making any progress? 21:31:30 merlincorey: Happy venturing. 21:31:38 _3b: i think i should have a repl for the AVM opcodes by tomorrow this time or so 21:32:04 just wanna write a cheesy VM I can type assembler into, maybe add a little inspector/debugger 21:32:07 <_3b> you trying to do stuff hosted in flash instead of cross-compiling from a lisp? 21:32:18 anyone? 21:32:23 merlincorey: If you're already using defstruct, you might be interested to know that you can still use defmethod and specialize on structure types. 21:32:25 thanks schme :) 21:32:29 i'm gonna have to write allot of actionscript to test player, and see how well it comes with large arrays 21:32:57 nyef: thanks, I will save this snippet of information for later experimentation... 21:33:11 also as a final word (from me) on the subject, it seems we are a bit divided on it :P 21:33:17 -!- HET2 [n=diman@e195-018.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:33:20 <_3b> jpcooper: which part is the problem? 21:33:30 _3b: i want to have a WITH-FLASH macro and with in have all my lisp code compiled to ABC. just a tiny lisp runtime system in an SWF file, and then I can have a loader for compiled Lisp loaded into the movie clip and run on the runtime. 21:33:30 _3b, I don't know how the new syntax is done 21:33:40 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:34:42 <_3b> jpcooper: (new d-o-m-parser) doesn't work? (or howerever that converts to a lispy name) 21:34:56 merlincorey: Just a slight division. All of us class lovers, against you the lone struct hugger ;) 21:35:00 _3b, I didn't think that it would work, given that new isn't a function 21:35:39 schme: I suppose this isn't the time to point out that hefner and I both tend to use structs as well? 21:35:57 nyef: I use 'em myself. 21:36:13 TCFUOSICL 21:36:17 HET2 [n=diman@pns-200-146.demo.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 21:36:25 The Coalition For Use Of Structs In Common Lisp 21:36:33 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF7D3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:36:34 *merlincorey* are treasurer 21:37:10 _3b, (new (d-o-m-parser)) works. Thank you 21:37:21 The overhead of classes, as I've understood it, aren't really that much worse than structs. 21:37:42 s/aren't/isn't/ 21:37:49 There's "that much worse", and then there's "that much worse". Sometimes it matters. 21:38:01 nyef, yeah, sure. 21:38:13 nyef, but in general, it's probably a non-issue, right? 21:38:46 That's because, in general, most code is not time- or space-critical. 21:38:48 <_3b> fusss: sounds interesting, i'll try to get my stuff published somewhere soon, just about given up on the bit i was stuck on :) 21:38:58 nyef, egg-sactly! 21:39:21 _3b: if you can remember what block you had, it would be good to know about it 21:39:22 kreuter: If one was to document socket-make-stream, would it be acceptable to replace its &rest args argument with more specific keyword arguments? 21:39:25 Has anyone used lispbuilder-sdl? 21:39:33 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 21:39:33 drdo: I use it :-) 21:39:38 goodie :) 21:39:45 on Windows, both sbcl and clisp. it ROCKS. 21:39:47 How can i use a timer? 21:39:57 i can't find anything in the docs 21:40:05 sdl has its own timer 21:40:08 hold on .. 21:40:10 <_3b> fusss: mainly just wrapping my brain around unwind-protect :) 21:40:11 i know 21:40:20 And when it is, well... There was one point where I was passing around machine pointers as pairs of integers because I couldn't get the compiler not to cons new SAPs, and I could have absolutely no consing going on at the time... 21:40:33 nyef: ah, a common hack, I see (: 21:40:55 <_3b> fusss: combined with the flash VM being very picky about types 21:42:13 In retrospect, I should have either passed them as fixnums (since they were guaranteed to be aligned something stupid, like a quarter-page or so) or just put together a proper object header so I could use a tagged pointer... 21:43:20 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has quit [] 21:43:48 -!- l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:55 drdo: it's right there. it has SDL-INIT-TIMER, SDL-GET-TICKS 21:43:55 <_3b> fusss: i'm thinking i might just switch to running completely dynamically typed (casting everything to *) until i get around to adding some real typing solution 21:44:10 _3b: you're WAY ahead of me 21:44:43 One of these days I should look into lispbuilder-sdl. 21:44:46 fusss: PCL did indeed ignore DEFSTRUCT for the reasons nyef and other gave earlier. 21:44:53 i wanna write a basic "suitability of flash as a lisp host" draft study, and keep churning out code until somebody stops me and tells me how stupid i am :-P 21:45:19 fusss: if it can host C and C++, why can't it host Lisp? 21:45:21 _3b: unwind-protect on win32 was one of the twistier things I've wrapped my brain around. 21:45:34 drdo: do you know how to hook the timer into the event system? it should map 1:1 to the C examples from libsdl 21:45:35 <_3b> chandler: c and c++ are statically typed for one thing :) 21:45:46 fusss: I assume you've seen http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/alchemy/ already. 21:45:54 chandler: i have seen alchemy 21:46:01 _3b: C is typed? 21:46:07 You could have fooled me! 21:46:23 Ogedei [n=user@echelon.ext.c-base.org] has joined #lisp 21:46:26 <_3b> chandler: typed enough for the vm 21:46:40 C and C++ don't toss around conses like we do. pascal has more structure than C, and i implemented a pascal :-) 21:47:12 <_3b> flash VM complains if you assign 2 different types to a register, or return 2 different types from diff places in same function, or any # of things not matching at edges of basic blocks, etc 21:47:17 AVM2 gives us both lexical scoping and dynamic scoping :-) though AS users don't see the dynamic scope instructions, or care for them, the system uses it underneath 21:47:21 I suspect chandler has typed a lot of C in his time. 21:47:21 fusss: Have you actually done any profiling to determine that representing conses as { car: x, cdr: y } would really be so bad? 21:47:40 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:47:44 hefner: I always just glared at Emacs until the code appeared. 21:48:00 <_3b> gigamonkey: seems like you need an actual class, unless you want duck-typing 21:48:06 It would seem that an Ecmascript VM would have to be pretty highly optimized for dealing with those thingys. 21:48:27 *_3b* hasn't completely ruled out duck typing though 21:48:28 gigamonkey: not yet. just writing an assembly interpreter (just a repl where i can type the opcodes.) I wanna find out how the opcodes can be used to create lisp special forms and various language constructs first. 21:48:30 _3b: well, that would be in the prototype which is implicit. 21:48:40 fusss: thank you :) 21:48:57 <_3b> gigamonkey: oh, you didn't mean that as an object literal? 21:49:03 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:10 fusss: btw, are you using the asdf-installable version? 21:49:22 I'm having a problem with WITH-EVENTS 21:49:26 in historical Lisps, conses were less abstract than they are in CL. 21:49:37 the macro is apparently expanding into malformed code 21:49:41 gigamonkey: i thought having deeply nested properties to represent a list of moderate size is a waste of good ram. i still haven't settled on a large array blob btw. 21:49:42 <_3b> drdo: looked broken to me, current SVN works though 21:49:43 _3b: Well, loosely speaking. 21:49:47 somehwere in c.l.l there's a kmp article about frobbing the cdr of a character, I think. 21:49:54 You'd have to reset the prototype to the proper Cons object. 21:49:55 drdo: not on Windows. installed it by hand. 21:50:43 _3b: where can i find the svn? 21:50:45 kreuter: "car" and "cdr" are not exactly constructs of abstract math :-P so, yeah. 21:50:46 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:50:51 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@196.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 21:50:59 <_3b> drdo: might want to ask on the lispbuilder mailing list too, devs are pretty good about fixing that sort of thing 21:51:18 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.82.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9b5/2008043010]"] 21:51:18 fusss: perhaps. Do they have a separate array type that may be represented more compactly. Then use a two-element array. (Which somebody probably suggested earlier.) 21:51:32 No probably about it. 21:52:02 gigamonkey: i thought it would look lame if i did everything with objects and properties and suffer the wrath of "slow wasteful lisp" PR, when i could easily cdr-encode things and tuck my shirt in. 21:52:07 <_3b> drdo: http://lispbuilder.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/lispbuilder/trunk/lispbuilder-sdl/ there is a link at the bottom to dl a tarball 21:52:12 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:52:14 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:33 gigamonkey: one thing at a time, will post stuff here as soon as i have a clue 21:52:52 <_3b> i was just planning to leave lists moderately inefficient, and not worry about it :p 21:52:52 fusss: well it also depends on what kind of Lisp you're trying to implement. A by-god CL or just something sufficiently Lispy to be fun to use? 21:52:57 thank you _3b 21:53:28 gigamonkey: CL, as much of it as i can 21:53:42 reusing as much adobe libs as i can 21:53:43 <_3b> hmm, wonder how well a C arbitrary precision math lib would run with alchemy 21:53:57 That's a big undertaking. Why wouldn't you do something a little smaller? 21:54:04 numeric tower might go on a diet, actually 21:54:25 <_3b> yeah, i wasn't intending any more math than the VM provides 21:54:47 chandler: AVM2 is half way there; practically. 21:54:57 -!- edon [n=edon@82.114.94.0] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:54:59 <_3b> well, i guess complex wouldn't be prohibitive, and rationals might be OK 21:55:06 always make the foreigner learn english 21:55:15 sorry wrong chat 21:55:27 fusss: It may be halfway to Lisp, but I really doubt it is halfway to all of the difficult niggly bits of Common Lisp. 21:55:35 <_3b> but bignums, and getting fixnums to overflow to bignums instead of doubles, etc would probably be pretty slow :) 21:56:07 chandler: as much of it as i know, my friend :-) what makes you think i know CL well enough to attempt to even get close .. 21:56:33 i can have a brain barf in here, or you guys could wait til the draf rationale of the future readme for a chuckle :-P 21:57:08 brb later 21:57:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 21:58:08 hm. he escapes too soon to be instructed about "brb later". 21:58:36 write memo 21:58:58 howdy kreuter. did I ever get you to try the changes I made to the SBCL page upload procedure? 21:59:17 I don't think so. was this within the last few weeks? 21:59:26 Yes. 21:59:37 minon: memo for fusss: You can't "brb later" it's either "r" or "later" ;-) 21:59:56 bah. I seem to have forgotten how to use clim-gtkairo properly again. 22:00:05 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-123-143.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:12 minion: paste 69649? 22:00:12 Paste number 69649: "instructions for updating the SBCL web site" by chandler in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/69649 22:00:38 <_3b> ooh, sicl has setf stuff now, wonder if i can get it to work in my code... 22:01:04 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-123-143.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:01:17 chandler: is that also in the checkout? 22:01:21 minion: memo for fusss: You can't "brb later" it's either "r" or "later" ;-) 22:01:29 Remembered. I'll tell fusss when he/she/it next speaks. 22:01:48 (of sbcl-page, I mean) 22:02:02 kreuter: The intsructions? No. 22:02:15 oh, I guess there's a bootstrapping problem there. 22:02:19 I was going to add it after getting a victim to try it, but didn't get one within a day or so and then promptly got busy. 22:02:27 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47CDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:02:37 I was going to put it on the internals wiki, actually. 22:02:42 even better. 22:02:48 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 22:03:54 -!- user___ [n=user@p54924527.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:05:48 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:06 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47CDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:12 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:07:13 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:09:21 syamajala_ [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 22:10:32 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:38 kreuter: So, any chance I could get you to? (Or are you doing that already?) 22:11:09 -!- Ogedei [n=user@echelon.ext.c-base.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:11:15 get me to what? 22:11:45 wait, never mind. 22:11:49 Try out the page update procedure. 22:11:51 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:18 Just the first set of instructions, which will build and upload what's already there. 22:12:22 does it have to be done now? otherwise, I'll do it for the next release (next week, I guess). 22:13:39 -!- mib_noe7qd [i=d8f90eee@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d103704944d1459c] has left #lisp 22:14:09 If you're OK with waiting, that's fine with me too. I figured that it wouldn't hurt to try it before the next release. 22:15:32 ISTR having some idiosyncratic troubles getting it working in October, I think because my libraries are a mess. 22:15:39 -!- trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-224-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:58 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:17:01 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:17:11 gonzojive [n=red@DNab422414.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:17:34 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DNab422414.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 22:17:37 kreuter: I removed a dependency (S-XML). CL-PPCRE is the only dependency now. I wouldn't want to remove that one, since it would be a royal pain to do the NEWS-parsing without it. 22:18:12 Unfortunately, CL-PPCRE has a mess of dependencies these days. 22:18:19 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:18:34 uh, I think it was a combination of problems: I tried using a clbuild monster core, which doesn't include *d-p-d* in asdf:*c-r*, and things just went downhill from there. 22:19:03 Ah. 22:19:19 -!- curtosis [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.226.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 22:19:26 oh, and clbuild didn't include s-xml. 22:19:29 22:21:08 it would be nice to get something similar to haskell's cabal-install for lisp... clbuild and asdf-install are not quite there (at least the last time I tried) 22:21:26 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@x-132-204-243-237.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:28 p_l: it would also be nice to have a caffeine gland. 22:24:12 anyone know what I'm supposed to do when I see "(:36450): Pango-WARNING **: failed to create cairo scaled font, expect ugly output. the offending font is 'Sans 10'" when trying to use mcclim-gtkairo? 22:24:45 *hefner* doesn't, guesses "load the CLX backend" 22:25:44 p_l: clbuild is in many ways nicer that cabal-install 22:25:50 I want the nice gtkairo antialiased lines and what not 22:27:10 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 22:28:01 luis: I agree that it wins in the sense of getting current software, but it would be better with a good repository or directory, like in the case of cabal-install, hackage 22:28:46 Also Haskellers have it easier, as they basically support only one platform 22:28:49 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:28:58 -!- geekux [n=geekux@217.5.184.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:56 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:30:37 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:30:39 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-23-136.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:32:05 hi 22:33:23 p_l: It's nice to see you volounteer to set this repo up :) 22:36:51 dthomp [n=dat@12.157.240.2] has joined #lisp 22:41:14 chandler: What does it depend on? 22:41:22 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:50 -!- cpape` [n=user@p5484C93A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:52 cpape` [n=user@p5484C93A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:16 http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/screenshot/svg-vecto.png <-- powered by DEFSTRUCT 22:42:17 tcr: I thought I saw it pull in CL-UNICODE and a few other things when I installed it. 22:42:32 tcr: It looks like that might have just been for the tests, not the package itself. 22:42:57 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:43:02 hefner: Awesome! 22:43:26 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 22:44:20 _deepfire: here? 22:44:42 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 22:44:43 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 22:45:38 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:45:59 hefner: Neat! Is this the first step towards a new Lisp-based SVG editor? 22:46:28 no, although that would be cool. Illustrator and Inkscape are rather irritating. 22:46:40 a-s [n=user@92.80.109.26] has joined #lisp 22:46:45 http://paste.lisp.org/display/70793 isn't this somewhat cool? .. maybe there is a simpler way to do this though 22:47:29 kreuter: Are you there, by any chance? 22:48:03 rpg: for a minute. what's up? 22:48:16 kreuter: OI dpm 22:48:20 ack! 22:48:27 I'm not sure what that means. 22:48:32 so I don't think I can ack. 22:48:53 kreuter: I don't know if you saw my earlier message --- would it be ok to rewrite the make-socket-stream method to have &key arguments instead of &rest args? 22:48:54 IOt 22:49:04 *rpg* is wrestling with a new keyboard... 22:49:05 oh, I don't know. 22:49:44 The problem is that it's very hard to tell what's going on from the outside, since the docs say "see make-fd-stream" and that has far more arguments than seem appropriate to mamke-socket-stream. 22:49:47 sure 22:50:18 For the nonce, I will guess about what would be an appropriate signature, and count on #lisp and sbcl-devel to put me straight. 22:50:22 I don't see why not. 22:50:34 hm. 22:50:58 I generally don't favor &rest since it obscures the true api (although of course they have their place). 22:50:59 it should probably also document that you only get one stream per socket. 22:51:19 I.e., if you invoke it twice, you get the same stream back? 22:51:23 yeah 22:51:34 I think somebody found that to be nonobvious. 22:51:41 oh yes, I see that looking at the code. 22:52:11 What seems very non-obvious is that if you invoke make-socket-stream a /second/ time, with different arguments, you might get a stream that doesn't meet your expectations. 22:52:24 that's one consequence, yep! 22:52:55 anyway, time to catch a train. 22:53:01 later 22:53:11 kreuter: Enjoy your commute (if you can). 22:53:31 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:14 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:41 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 22:54:46 Thanks! I think this will require further discussion... 22:55:07 l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:55:09 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 22:55:48 elurin [n=user@85.96.232.164] has joined #lisp 22:59:53 -!- dthomp [n=dat@12.157.240.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:01:10 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:15 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:15 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:15 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:17 -!- ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:02:45 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:05:01 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:05:56 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:19 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:07:13 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:18 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:21 schme: If I hadn't had to worry about how I'm going to pay for this month's rent, I'd set it up. 23:10:22 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-23-136.dip.osnanet.de] has left #lisp 23:10:39 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-23-136.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:14:46 -!- CptPicard [n=picard@a91-152-246-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:16:24 hi guys, I've got a global hash table in a package foo which takes symbols (not keywords) as keys, I set up that hash in the same package. the problem is that in another package I need to (frequently) get the values of that hash by specifying only the symbol name (without the package name as in e.g. foo:my-symbol). is there a way to do this? cheers 23:17:21 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:17:22 why not use keywords? 23:17:47 inetic: you are confused about what a symbol mean and how packages work... 'foo::bar has an identity, and packages help managing what "foo" is resolved into when reading. 23:18:07 stassats`, I use symbols for a different purpose allready 23:18:17 -!- kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 23:18:22 keywords are symbols too 23:18:40 eh, sorry I meant keywords in the last sentence 23:18:49 -!- HET2 [n=diman@pns-200-146.demo.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:20:23 don't know whether it's a good way, but you can intern symbol in the right-package: (intern (symbol-name symbol) :another-package) 23:20:34 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178005119.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:39 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178005119.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:41 bem [n=chandler@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has joined #lisp 23:20:48 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 23:21:44 the idea is to do something simmilar as they do in one of those videos in SICP, where they compute derivations of mathematical functions, there they have a function that parses the math function and depending on what symbol they use (+ - * ...) they decide what to do 23:22:29 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-58-40.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 23:23:14 in my case the "what to do" is stored in the hash table and it's refered to by simmilar symbols as + - * / ... 23:23:22 -!- chandler [n=chandler@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:23:44 why not just use functions? 23:24:48 because I would have name clashes with standard cl functions 23:26:04 kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:23 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 23:28:36 inetic: I have not seen this video you mention, but how are those functions called? 23:30:41 schme, the language should generate javascript code, now it accepts symbols like: for, let, while, and even defmacro 23:31:40 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:46 inetic: use the symbol's name as your hashtable key. 23:33:06 luis: That is what he is doing, I believe. 23:34:06 schme: is he? 23:34:14 luis, yes that's what I do, but when I set e.g. (setf (gethash 'let (lambda (...) ...))) in package foo, then in another package I would have to refer to 'let as 'foo:bar 23:34:39 inetic: FOO is a symbol, "FOO" is its name. 23:34:40 eh, refer to 'let as 'foo:let 23:34:57 (symbol-name 'foo) => "FOO" 23:35:20 (symbol-name 'bar:foo) => "FOO" 23:35:52 inetic: makes sense? 23:35:58 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 23:36:16 luis: are you suggesting to make strings the keys? 23:37:07 ineiros_: yes, that's what I meant by "symbol name". 23:38:06 s/ineiros_/inetic 23:38:21 and (eq (symbol-name 'foo) (symbol-name 'bar::foo)) must be true (must it? i'm not sure) 23:38:23 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:38:31 luis, hmm, might make it slower, but I guess it's the only way. 23:38:56 inetic: what makes you think that? 23:39:24 luis: to think that it would be slower or that it's the only way? 23:39:27 Anything that makes you think "it's the only way" should be abandoned ;) 23:39:40 :) 23:39:43 inetic: what makes you think it'd be slower. 23:39:52 oh, no, if only they are in the same package 23:41:24 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:31 well, untill recently I had been programming in C++, it's natural to think that string comparisons are slow in those circles 23:42:27 -!- syamajala_ [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 23:45:15 inetic: So if I understand this correctly you have a function that takes a symbol as an argument, and that symbol is looked up in the hash table? 23:45:50 schme, yes 23:46:12 inetic: And the hash table is in some other package? 23:46:20 yes 23:46:30 inetic: (gethash 'blork foo:the-hash-table) ? 23:46:35 froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 23:47:14 Neat! I learn something almost every day. According to the Dwarf 3 spec, the MIPS architecture defines a 16-bit wide instruction set. 23:47:36 that would work inside the foo package, outside of it I need to call it like this: (gethash 'foo:blork foo:the-hash-table) 23:47:39 I wonder when that happened? 23:47:57 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:58 -!- the_unmaker [i=d8cde040@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-cdd00fd4983ed90d] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 23:48:15 inetic: Oh I see.. What test did you set for the hash table? 23:48:20 inetic: Why are you exposing the hash table instead of a function to do the lookup? 23:48:39 nyef to the rescue ): 23:48:41 eh 23:48:41 :) 23:48:47 schme, the default one 23:48:50 *schme* typos the smileys. 23:49:08 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:49:22 nyef: I don't but for the purposes of this conversation I think I's enough to think about it that way 23:50:30 -!- froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Success] 23:50:52 inetic: Well you might have to go with string= then :) 23:50:58 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 23:51:16 nyef, but even if I had the functions to do it, I would have to do (find-me-the-entry 'foo:blork) instead of (find-me-the-entry 'blork) 23:51:26 schme: no, standard hashtable can't use string= 23:51:26 inetic: if you use strings, you'll the to use :test 'equal when creating the hashtable. 23:51:39 stassats`: what a bugger. 23:51:43 s/the/need 23:52:08 stassats`: But you can coerce the keys to strings as if they were string designators. 23:52:51 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-23-136.dip.osnanet.de] has quit ["http://github.com/bakkdoor/rswing/"] 23:52:54 schme, luis: yes, I'll do it this way, many thanks for your time 23:53:13 inetic: You're ever so welcome. I learnt something from the exchange. :) 23:53:35 :) 23:54:44 <_3b> inetic: just to make sure, you are aware of parenscript, right? 23:56:06 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:56:09 _3b: no, sorry, I'm kind of a lisp noob 23:56:33 <_3b> http://common-lisp.net/project/parenscript/ 23:58:31 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:58:58 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:59:05 <_3b> don't know if that is anything like you want, but you mentioned generating javascript 23:59:36 _3b: that might save me couple of months :-), yes it's exactly it 23:59:39 *nyef* notes that Dwarf 3 is that interesting combination of basically okay in places, not really supportive of Lisp in others, and complete WTF in the rest.