00:00:15 bakkdoor: You may want to google for lisp-hh, there's a Lisp User Group in Hamburg. 00:00:36 they got a mailing list you may want to subcribe to 00:00:39 tcr: alright thanks, how did you know i'm from osnabrück? 00:01:03 your host ends in osnanet.de 00:01:15 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:01:48 tcr: oh lol, right ;) 00:01:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:55 curtosis [n=cmcurtis@c-24-126-51-106.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:09 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:07:22 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:08:18 how can i override the existing with-gensyms macro in clisp? it seems to have problems if i use the one from the book 00:09:16 define your code in it's own package, or do (unuse-package :ext) 00:09:36 in cl-user (the default package) 00:09:47 ok thanks 00:09:54 s/it's/its/ sure 00:10:54 or better do (shadow 'with-gensyms) 00:12:15 bakkdoor: the best way is to make your own package 00:12:21 ok 00:13:04 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:06 but you can wait until 21 chapter 00:14:02 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:14:24 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:15:23 alright, i'll use (shadow 'with-gensyms) for now, dont really know yet how to define my own package 00:16:42 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:16:52 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 00:17:18 suzume [n=user@210.136.182.44] has joined #lisp 00:17:32 Is there a command for listing all loaded packages? 00:18:12 clhs list-all-packages 00:18:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_a.htm 00:18:21 Cryovat: What do you mean with command? 00:18:23 Ashy [n=User@118.107.36.126] has joined #lisp 00:18:43 -!- Ashy [n=User@118.107.36.126] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:18:49 Thanks 00:18:54 That was what I was looking for 00:19:09 Trying to start swank manually from sbcl, but it's fighting me :( 00:19:30 Cryovat: You have to LOAD the file swank-loader.lisp 00:19:40 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-059-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:48 I do so, and it returns T 00:20:19 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:20:27 You then have to invoke (swank-loader:init :load-contribs t) 00:20:29 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 00:20:42 and you can then start a swank server via swank:create-server 00:21:25 Ah, that's a pretty critical step 00:21:35 The faq I'm reading omitted init 00:22:28 the faq may be dated 00:24:47 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["leaving"] 00:24:49 sometimes in SLIME the minibuffer stops displaying hints after I type the beginning of a form. eg. it usually displays `(format stream format-string ...) when I type "(format" anyone know the fix? 00:26:12 gonzojive: is it when in the repl is running something? 00:27:33 stassats`: my repl is in the read stage. it is not evaling 00:28:38 I experienced that, too, on some rare occassions. 00:30:05 -!- curtosis [n=cmcurtis@c-24-126-51-106.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:31:59 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:31:59 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-010-175.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:13 I can still M-. and introspect programs but that one feature is broken 00:32:38 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:13 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 00:33:25 Is sbcl written in C or is it somehow self-hosting? 00:33:45 tessier_: It is primarily self-hosting, with some low-level support in C. 00:34:15 The low-level stuff is mostly garbage collection and OS interface (signal handling). 00:34:36 The curves in my screenshot weren't interpolated correctly. I had a working routine but didn't use it on account of having renamed it without updating the caller. How embarrassing. 00:35:01 hefner: Does the image now look like bowser instead? 00:35:28 you'd have to eat a lot of mushrooms 00:35:28 nyef: Interesting. I ask because I was just reading http://www.ekinoderm.com/wordpress/2008/11/anonymous-functions/ and he says "You cant create a new function at runtime in C and assign it to a function pointer." which makes me wonder how one would do it in any language written in C. But I think he means you can't do it without implementing most of Lisp in C because of course they are both Turing complete etc. 00:38:33 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:43 *Cryovat* sighs 00:38:50 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:38:57 Whoever developed the Cusp plugin for Eclipse never seemed to bother doing error logging :( 00:39:14 was it Jasko? 00:39:25 Yes 00:39:43 tessier: most C runtime environments support calling the compiler on the command line (-: 00:39:44 Something is failing when it's trying to connect to Swank, but there's no apparent way to get a sane error 00:40:28 tessier: so you can compile/link a shared library, and load that at run time (: 00:41:03 (: 00:41:35 antifuchs: neat 00:41:55 antifuchs, Eno_: Are you two in Australia or something? 00:41:56 (whether you want to do it, is another question... many things don't really like having code injected into them) 00:42:15 Your smilies go the wrong way. :) 00:42:30 so do yours (: 00:42:38 Because I'm in the northern hemisphere. 00:42:39 the coriolis effect! 00:42:46 It must be. 00:42:58 tessier_: and you use the word "wrong" in the wrong way... :) 00:42:59 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:44:15 attila_lendvai: I do? 00:45:45 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 00:45:52 tessier_: you can't create a new function at runtime in C without relying on unportable mechanisms: either (a) generating machine code yourself, and possibly marking it executable, which is arch-dependent or (b) invoking a compiler, which is os-dependent 00:46:04 tessier_: not any less (or more) wrong than the direction of antifuchs' smilies are 00:46:12 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:29 kpreid: But that's not an absolute statement, right? I mean, if you implemented most of Lisp in your C you could, right? 00:49:00 Since C is just a veneer over assembly/machine code anyway and ultimately Lisp is machine code too... 00:49:00 -!- suzume [n=user@210.136.182.44] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:49:22 tessier_: that is option (a) 00:49:54 kpreid: I see. Does Lisp not generate machine code itself? 00:50:12 most implementations do 00:50:22 Ok, I think I get it now. Thanks. 00:50:23 clisp is an exception 00:51:29 And almost any Lisp Machine is another exception. 00:51:31 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:51:39 and ecl, it generates C code 00:51:48 and abcl 00:52:26 nyef: how so? 00:52:28 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 00:52:28 (Try to claim that the Explorers compiled to machine code and I'll point out the big fat hand-coded bytecode interpreter.) 00:52:35 ...okay! 00:53:09 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-126.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:12 Really, it'd be amusing to see an ARM or 68k emulator written in Raven microcode. 00:55:04 -!- Esmil [n=esmil@4704ds1-gjp.0.fullrate.dk] has left #lisp 00:55:09 Or maybe a VAX emulator... Kindof depends on MMU compatability in a way. 00:56:12 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-56-108.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:08 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:58:43 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:02:03 -!- Odin-MAC_ [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:04:46 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 01:04:47 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.46.94] has joined #lisp 01:04:50 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:09:13 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 01:10:18 masm [n=user@213.22.190.91] has joined #lisp 01:11:18 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:50 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:13:13 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 01:16:37 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:17:25 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:18:53 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [] 01:20:19 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 01:21:47 cmm [n=cmm@79.176.0.19] has joined #lisp 01:26:22 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:09 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a94-022.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:27:21 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a94-022.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:30:16 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:32:55 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:00 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:04 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:16 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:25 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 01:42:01 -!- Zhivago__ is now known as Zhivago 01:42:51 Doesn't clisp have native-code generation via lightning these days? At least as an experimental option. 01:43:27 it does on some platforms 01:44:25 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 01:45:00 -!- masm [n=user@213.22.190.91] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:46:55 Zhivago: does that mean the complete application could be put into one executional? (without jumping through loops) 01:50:05 dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:50:09 -!- jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:18 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-31-161.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [] 01:57:21 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-56-108.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:17 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:04:23 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:05:47 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 02:06:59 madnificent: completely orthogonal, and ITYM executable. 02:08:30 drewc: This is GNU CLISP, comrade. With GNU Lightning, we will be able to deal with all of the enemies of software freedom in one executional. 02:09:02 i guess i'll be first against the wall :) 02:14:30 We all will be! 02:18:44 drewc: oops, yes 02:25:13 Discordian [n=clive@chills.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:29:27 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-02618bbef706cdf8] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:29:36 evening 02:31:04 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:38:16 impulse32_ [n=impulse@99.253.196.153] has joined #lisp 02:39:41 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.29] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:48 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:41:29 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:42:28 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.29] has joined #lisp 02:44:33 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 02:46:56 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 02:48:14 p_l [n=plasek@pp82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 02:53:45 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:05:43 -!- kidd [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:07 tritchey [n=tritchey@98.226.113.211] has joined #lisp 03:06:53 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:07:03 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:11:55 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a94-022.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:12:54 _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:41 -!- _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:15:47 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit ["leaving"] 03:16:06 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 03:16:25 kidd [n=kidd@119.Red-88-11-107.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:22 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:17:49 -!- impulse32_ [n=impulse@99.253.196.153] has quit ["leaving"] 03:19:20 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Client Quit] 03:19:37 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 03:24:12 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:03 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:25:53 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8aa0-090.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:30:21 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@98.226.113.211] has quit [] 03:38:13 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 03:43:02 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.29] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:45:57 rtra_ [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 03:50:33 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:34 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:53:09 -!- elurin [n=user@88.254.108.31] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:55:48 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:00:17 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:02:52 skrit [n=skrit@cpe-76-88-49-7.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:13 Good morning? 04:04:02 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:04:59 Good morning everyone. 04:05:02 Hello tic 04:05:06 photon3 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 04:09:06 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:16 hi, beach. 04:12:01 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 04:14:16 Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:17:57 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:25 -!- photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:29:01 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-179-12.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:46 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:30:09 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:33:15 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:35:45 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:39:17 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-179-12.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:39:32 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-179-12.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:38 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:42:47 EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has joined #lisp 04:42:49 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:45:26 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:48:03 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-126.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:28 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-39-9.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:24 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-179-12.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:59:11 beach: aroundp 04:59:18 yep. 04:59:37 I saw you looking for student projects. 04:59:50 I still do, yes. 05:00:01 How about something that's a step toward a Lisp based word processor with nice typography. 05:01:01 gigamonkey: Yes, that's a nice project that I considered suggesting, but I need to find a way to present it as something worthwhile, not for the students, but for the person in charge of the course. 05:01:21 gigamonkey: The fact that it's Lisp-based won't fly. 05:01:22 What's the course on? 05:01:34 gigamonkey: "Programming project" 05:02:05 benny` [n=benny@i577A0726.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:02:25 gigamonkey: Oh, I think I can sell the typography aspect of it! 05:02:31 Well, surely there's some interesting ground to be broken, or at least covered, in making a text editing component that has nice looking typography. 05:02:42 yeah, you are right. 05:03:01 Thanks for pointing that out. I think I'll suggest it. 05:03:27 Also, something that lets you edit stuff that looks nice while you edit it but then saves it in some kind of sane format would be great. 05:03:50 I went a ways down the path of building a word processor on OS X that would use my Markup language under the covers. 05:04:05 Then I realized that Apple doesn't really want folks to write software for their platform and gave up. 05:04:05 gigamonkey: Right, the format would be S-expressions augmented with my serialization syntax for CLOS instances. 05:04:31 Oh? What do they do to prevent you? 05:04:53 They just didn't actually document their APIs. At least not the text editing APIs. 05:05:08 I see. 05:06:09 I spent a good chunk of time chasing down what I thought was some stupid memory management bug (since what do I really know about Objective C) only to discover that it was actually me calling into one of their APIs from some callback when the API was apparently not reentrant. But there was nothing that came to documenting that kind of contract. 05:06:13 Oh, but wait. To suggest that project, I would have to be able to integrate my new fonts into CLIM, and I was going to write the framebuffer backend first. 05:06:14 Grrr. 05:06:34 That's bad. 05:06:41 s/nothing that came/nothing that came close/ 05:08:14 I would have to think about whether 1 I could finish the framebuffer backend before they start, 2 make a special hack for an existing backend, or 3 do what I do with Gsharp (use pixmaps). 05:09:17 I'll think of something, I guess. 05:15:16 Heh. I just saw the thing about Cliff Click, Dave Moon, and Daniel Weinreb on Planet Lisp. 05:15:50 it's quite interesting 05:15:53 My old boss was involved in Azul early on and invited me along with a bunch of other former co-workers for a show and tell. 05:16:12 At the time I was like, "Hmmm. Sounds like you guys are reinvinting the Lisp machine." 05:17:56 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0567.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:17:56 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:18:22 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:20:24 word processor outputting s-exps in the style of latex? 05:20:59 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1CCCF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:25 segv [n=mb@p4FC1D1EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:32 tic: No, I just use a very simple method for serializing CLOS objects, namely [package:classname :initarg1 value1 :initarg2 value2 ...] 05:22:04 tic: that's actually closer to what I had. 05:22:33 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:22:35 My Markup language is basically a more or less human-editable text format that is easily mapped to s-exps and from there to HTML/PDF/RTF, whatever. 05:22:44 gigamonkey, yeah, so I read. I don't remember if you eventually produced LaTeX from it? 05:22:51 Ah, right. 05:23:11 tic: Recently I made a TeX backend for some reason or another but I don't use it much. 05:23:15 I'm sold on ReStructuredText, but it's a bit wonky to work with, programatically. Python gone wrong, as it were. 05:23:40 beach, so a document is a bunch of objects? 05:24:41 tic: Yes, that's the easiest thing to do. That way one can concentrate on what it looks like in memory as opposed to on disk. 05:25:01 tic: look in the Scores subdirectory of Gsharp for an example. 05:25:44 tic: I think we are making a big mistake by starting to worry about serialization as opposed to about how things look in memory. 05:26:43 tic: if by "we" you mean, in part, me--I'm not worrying about how it looks in memory. I just want to be able to save it on disk in a particular format. 05:26:49 beach, cause and effect due to the poor introspection and heterogenocity(?) of the current crop of middle-level languages. Perhaps? 05:27:21 Because, for instance, I'd like to be able to store it in version control and have diff have at least a chance of dealing with it. 05:27:23 tic: something like that, yes. 05:27:57 gigamonkey: my simple format definitely allows that. 05:28:19 gigamonkey, *nod* 05:28:21 You mean it's textual enough that you can diff it. Or it allows control over how it's stored on disk. 05:28:24 the only disadvantage with it is that it takes up some space, but anyone worried about that could use gzip. 05:28:36 Thus destroying the ability to use diff. 05:28:37 gigamonkey: it is purely textual. 05:29:13 The gzip that is. 05:29:16 so there's a fine line between doing to little markup (restructuredtext is on the bodrer), and too much (sgml). the advantage over the lesser markup languages is that they diff better. 05:29:35 -!- brandonz [n=brandon@pool-96-238-45-78.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:29:36 gigamonkey: I am imagining a file system that does the compression automatically. 05:30:02 beach, even then, it'd be interesting to have a structure-aware diff program, very much like michaelw's (?) s-exp-differ, that looks into your serialized objects. might be difficult though. 05:30:15 On the other hand, if I went toward my full-blown dream prose-editing environment I'd pretty quickly need a more complex storage format so serialized objects is probably as good as anything. 05:30:19 disk space is cheap, who cares? 05:30:37 you might split text and markup in two sections of the file (for diff purposes) 05:30:50 tic: not so difficult, just read into memory and diff it there. 05:30:52 pkhuong, like runlengths? 05:31:30 gigamonkey, in fact, it's probably the best, now that I've thought of it some. Why have a middle-man involved doing parsing at the risk of introducing errors and limiting how you express yourself? 05:32:13 (like ODF and friends do, I suppose. just XML is a bit.. meh :) 05:32:30 tic: the only advantage is it's slightly easier to build ad-hoc tool chains with a format that isn't basically an opaque binary blob--whether represented in ASCII text or no. 05:32:41 I'm not sure that's a winning advantage. But it's there. 05:32:56 I mean, RTF is "purely text" but it's a nightmare. 05:33:10 Yeah. You need a good query utility, and then you can manipulate the text all you want. 05:33:25 On the other hand, if we assume the whole toolchain is Lisp based, then serialized objects is good. 05:33:26 (XPath-ish, but pipe-compatible) 05:33:46 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:33:55 *gigamonkey* goes to write a text -> (paragraphs, sentence, words) parser. 05:34:15 split on empty lines, split on dot, split on space? :) 05:35:09 tic: Something like that. Though there's probably some annoying hair to be dealt with. 05:35:10 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:35:18 *gigamonkey* didn't say he was going to be gone long. 05:35:22 hehe 05:35:28 suzume [n=user@210.136.182.44] has joined #lisp 05:35:36 Quotes and so forth. 05:35:54 ad-hoc quoting or only in your format? 05:36:23 I mean like, "What are you going to do about quotes?" he asked. 05:36:31 That's all one sentence. 05:36:32 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:36:59 My real goal is to write a prose-aware diff tool. 05:37:12 Aight, thought you were talking about multi-line quotes.... *opens the compulsory can of worms* 05:37:24 Well, "goal" is a bit strong. "Dream" is more like it. 05:38:26 gigamonkey: that's awesome 05:38:46 Yeah. Basically, my Markup already does the paragraph level parsing and handles multi-line quotes, etc. 05:39:00 Now I just need to further parse the text I get out of the paragraphs. 05:39:07 Ah. 05:39:14 Well, good luck, have fun. 05:39:33 gigamonkey: how do you feel about semantic web? 05:39:36 *tic* curses at Yahoo's verification e-mails that expire before they're event sent 05:39:54 merlincorey: I've never been convinced. Despite having been involved in the early development of Allegro Graph. 05:40:34 I can sort of see how triple stores could be handy for people who don't know how they want to organize their data. 05:41:28 indeed, and there exist some techniques for answering questions about unstructured data 05:42:55 gigamonkey, it's sometimes impossible to organize data. 05:43:16 Aren't triple stores basically a subset of Prolog? 05:43:59 tic: yes. The promise the triple-store people (at least Franz) seemed to be holding out was that somehow the triple store would do some magic that would make your queries really fast even though the queries were ad hoc and the storage completely generic. 05:46:09 gigamonkey, so queries are essentially reduced to a unification problem? What I believe to be the most interesting bit on triple stores is that association is probably the best way(?) to describe how the human mind works. And triple stores enable you -- or so I've understood it -- to make paths you'd otherwise not take should you use strictly hierarchical storage or sql-style records. 05:46:47 tic: that's how the queries in Allegro Graph worked when I worked on it. I'm not a big expert. 05:47:18 gigamonkey, it's fun to toy around ideas. I haven't used them at all, just looking at the definition and thinking what they could be used for. 05:47:20 It is a good way to scribble down unorganized data, no doubt about it. 05:47:31 -!- drwhen [n=drwho@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:47:42 The other bit of the semantic web was this crazy notion that everybody is going to be able to agree on useful ontologies, etc. 05:47:52 That I think is crack headed. 05:48:56 yeah, semantic web I don't care much about. you'll always have the problem with people describing the same thing in different ways. 05:49:06 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:50:12 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 05:50:24 gigamonkey: I just looked at the quality of OpenOffice, and it is pretty awful. 05:50:35 I got a piece of insight into that problem when my dad did some consulting for auto makers. Turns out they actively *don't want* their parts suppliers to use a standard parts order form because then the suppliers could use that form with other auto makers and then easily switch to whatever maker offered them a better deal. Much better for Ford to make their suppliers make a big investment in knowing how to use the Ford-specific 05:50:49 Typographic quality? Code quality? 05:50:49 It's absolutely sucktastic. :) But it reads Word and Excel files! 05:51:07 Maybe some of the suck wore off from those formats. 05:51:08 gigamonkey: Typographic. 05:51:17 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:51:36 drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:41 gigamonkey, got cut off at Ford-specific. But I think I understand what you mean. Interesting. 05:51:54 gigamonkey: which is what will give me the argument for suggesting the project. 05:51:56 ... forms. Didn't miss much. 05:52:12 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student166-32.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 05:52:21 Hm. Another thing that's better about plain-text formats is that you can use your editor of choice instead of being locked in to a proprietary editor that sucks. 05:52:41 (oh how many times have I ended up with a bunch of j's in the middle of a sentence?) 05:54:18 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:55:20 beach: I don't know if this is relevant http://www.pango.org/. Maybe a building block; maybe competitor. Maybe unrelated. 05:56:01 Hmmm, how to parse '"What?" Frank asked.' One sentence or two? 05:56:11 Guess it doesn't really matter for my purposes. 05:56:18 one sentence with a sentence within? 05:56:34 gigamonkey: thanks for pointing that out. 05:56:57 gigamonkey, do you have something between paragraph and sentence level? 05:57:01 tic: but even that can't really be decided without NLP. 05:57:02 gigamonkey, like a block or a quote? 05:57:28 gigamonkey, you have " and '. why not? 05:57:54 Well, the ' was just for presentation here. 05:58:05 Alright. 05:58:17 pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 05:58:24 morning pjb. 05:58:26 i'm thinking of some text that goes: Blah blah blah. "Hello?" Nobody home. 05:59:02 Syntactically that's the same as: "What?" Frank asked. 06:00:37 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:06:18 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Success] 06:08:32 appletizer [i=user@82-33-193-40.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:11:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:23 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:19 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 06:21:46 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-126.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:22:47 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-185.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:25:14 evening 06:28:57 hello slyrus_ 06:30:33 prowack [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:47:56 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 06:48:50 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:53:46 nagi [n=nagi@195.248.67.249] has joined #lisp 06:53:49 athos [n=philipp@p54B864C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:00 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-126.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:22 -!- bartiosze` [n=user@ejf118.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:58:31 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-182.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:59:00 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A0726.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:05:59 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:07:36 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 07:10:13 -!- bew [n=chatzill@82-35-250-119.cable.ubr04.dals.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 07:10:50 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:13:12 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:15:02 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 07:20:22 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:21:01 dwave_ [n=ask@212251242171.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 07:21:27 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:45 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-126.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:34 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-65.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 07:35:29 binghe [n=chatzill@60.12.227.4] has joined #lisp 07:41:37 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@212251242171.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:42:46 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:43:58 good morning 07:44:10 moin 07:46:00 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:46:20 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 07:52:25 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 07:53:14 ecuzzill [n=ecuzzill@c-24-131-19-37.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:52 madnificent: Well, it's JIT, so it doesn't really help with that unless you want to 'bundle clisp and your application in one file'. 08:06:00 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@46.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:07:44 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 08:22:23 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.46.94] has left #lisp 08:23:21 -!- pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:23:34 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:07 hey does anybody have voice recording working with a coded other than linear PCM? 08:27:16 *codec 08:27:37 my bad wrong channel sorry for the inane iphone chatter 08:29:23 -!- suzume [n=user@210.136.182.44] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:29:42 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:31:53 pierre__thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has joined #lisp 08:32:35 clhs getf 08:32:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm 08:32:45 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:35:20 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:36:44 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:37:02 oook 08:37:17 *Discordian* gets lispworks 08:37:46 -!- ecuzzill [n=ecuzzill@c-24-131-19-37.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:38:06 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 08:43:24 crod [n=cmell@cb8a6f-227.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:44:03 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 08:44:35 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-24-19-6-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 08:45:12 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8aa0-090.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:47:11 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-24-19-6-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:14 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:49:27 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-33-193-40.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:51:21 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:53:34 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:53:56 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:01:01 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:19 -!- binghe [n=chatzill@60.12.227.4] has left #lisp 09:08:43 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:10:38 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 09:10:41 morning 09:11:35 g'day 09:12:25 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f413a.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:14:30 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:15:16 tic: pjb wasn't 'awake'. I just tumbled into my powerbook during the night which awoke it alone. ;-) 09:18:03 phao [n=phao@189.13.105.52] has joined #lisp 09:18:23 do common lisp support anything like C++'s overloading? 09:18:34 phao: What is overloading? 09:19:45 schme_: it's like lisp's method dispatch 09:19:48 hmm, with that you'd be able to do something like this: 3 functions with the same name (sort as example here), one sort for sorting real numbers, one sort to sort strings and one sort to sort numbers in descendent order 09:19:49 except dumb 09:19:53 phao: common lisp supports generic functions, which are similar to overloading in c++. 09:20:36 ok 09:20:49 kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has joined #lisp 09:24:13 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:24:42 CL doesn't support operator overloading, because it doesn't have operators in that sense. 09:24:50 And more importantly, generic functions don't support method overloading they way other OO systems do, and that's a major issue for mappings between CLOS and other object systems. 09:25:34 Arguably overloading is about decisions done at compile time using static typing and isn't applicable in this context at all. 09:26:28 phao: depending on your needs, my view or lichteblau's may be more applicable. 09:29:08 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:29:13 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:29:49 ok 09:31:15 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 09:31:55 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:35:56 -!- Discordian [n=clive@chills.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:36:10 -!- cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has left #lisp 09:36:43 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:42:56 matimago, aha. :) 09:43:32 phao, that said, I much prefer the way CLOS does it. Have you read the chapter in PCL? 09:44:58 tic, sorry, but... 09:45:05 but what? 09:45:10 it seems you're confusing me with someone 09:45:23 I'm not reading any lisp book 09:45:25 phao, did you not ask about C++ operator overloading? 09:45:43 i did 09:45:51 minion: tell phao about that-dead-sexy-book 09:46:03 phao: direct your attention towards that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 09:46:26 phao, well there you go. :) If you're interested, search for "Multimethods" on this page. It covers some of "overloading" http://gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html 09:48:14 Hmm, I wouldn't want to call generic functions similar to overloading in C++ :) 09:48:27 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.73.4] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:48:34 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:48:37 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.73.4] has joined #lisp 09:48:44 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:48:51 Zhivago, you're here too :) 09:49:00 I'm in doubt between C++ and common lisp 09:49:08 I'm already reading a C++ book 09:49:21 probably I'll finish it anyway, because I'll need basics of C++ later 09:49:26 phao: Learn CL so that you can be unsatisfied with C++. 09:49:32 both are useful. but to learn object-orientation, I think you should start with CL. 09:50:03 Yes, CL will give you a much clearer grounding with less insanity. 09:50:11 Zhivago: there certainly are significant differences, but i think the question was "can i make a function dispatch on the types of the arguments supplied" 09:50:14 All objects in CL have classes, for example. 09:50:29 hans: You can't in CL. 09:50:46 Well, at least not with gfs. 09:50:50 Zhivago: but go ahead, give a comprehensive answer that helps this person. i don't need any education with respect to that. 09:51:12 I've heard that story before :) 09:51:48 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:52:06 Zhivago: if you're looking for original discussions, #lisp is not the right place 09:52:12 C++ does select which overloaded function to call based on the types of the arguments supplied. 09:52:27 CL selects based on the classes (or identities) of the objects passed. 09:52:36 anyway, I have to go now :( 09:53:09 phao: Bye. 09:53:10 -!- phao [n=phao@189.13.105.52] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:53:33 mulligan [n=user@e178034034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:53:34 So what is that CL function that increases the storage space on my harddrive again? 09:54:14 Zhivago: So the difference is that not all types in CL are a class? In CL, you can't consequently dispatch on all types. 09:54:42 schme_: it is the lambdacombinator, see ycombinator.com 09:54:49 aaaargh! The evil :( 09:55:11 tcr: is tcr.parse-declarations-1.0::parse-body exactly the same as alexandria:parse-body or is there a subtle difference that I'm missing? 09:55:22 tcr: No types in CL are classes. 09:55:44 tcr: There are some cases where you have parallel types and classes. 09:56:27 tcr: Well, in this case the most significant point is that CL dispatches based on how the object is implemented. 09:56:41 tcr: In C++'s case, it dispatches on how the object is referred to locally. 09:57:05 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 09:57:12 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:57:15 lichtblau: It is not the same code-wise, but I run the parse-body related tests of Alexanria's test suite against it, and they all ran successfully. So I hope they're isomorphic. 09:57:18 tcr: Consider having an Animal * that points to an Elephant. C++ will pick the overloaded function that takes an Animal *. 09:57:40 tcr: CL will pick the method with that argument specialized upon Elephant. 09:57:40 tcr: okay, thanks 09:59:26 Zhivago: Thanks! I was eager to hear an example that shows the difference between compile-time resolution, and run-time dispatch. 09:59:46 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-39-9.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:36 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:01:33 lichtblau: There'll be a Munich Lisp Group meeting on wednesday, 3rd. I'll give a talk about Slime. Feel invited. :-) 10:02:32 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has left #lisp 10:04:20 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:04:20 -!- ffx` [n=tits@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:06:22 cool. I won't be able to make that, but good luck with the talk. 10:07:29 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-39-9.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:07:30 There'll probably be an impromptu Lisp meeting this Friday in Brussels. Feel invited! :-) 10:08:27 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 10:10:12 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C435.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:10:17 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@46.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:10:18 Next time perhaps. Got to care about some family-related affairs over the weekend. 10:11:16 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-39-9.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:52 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit ["."] 10:15:04 johs_ [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 10:16:20 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:16:25 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@46.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:17:06 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:18:02 -!- johs_ is now known as johs 10:18:16 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:20:53 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:00 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@46.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:21:45 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:22:12 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:22:17 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 10:26:06 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-39-9.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:27:52 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:29:36 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:30:19 ths [n=ths@p549AF745.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:34 -!- skrit [n=skrit@cpe-76-88-49-7.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 10:42:40 -!- drdo [n=psykon@77.54.111.167] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:43:51 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 10:43:58 phao [n=phao@20158177116.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 10:47:06 hm .. 30mb RES (20mb SHR .. i'm not 100% sure what these things mean exactly; i'm looking at stuff from `top') for a SBCL dump with hunchentoot, cl-who, symbolicweb, postmodern and a couple of utility libraries + the application itself of course .. seems SBCL uses less memory than it did a while ago :) 10:48:23 ..oh, and this is with full debug/safety 10:48:31 so that's good 10:48:50 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:54:39 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["leaving"] 10:57:33 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 11:02:01 -!- drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has quit ["\(^^) LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL! "\(^^)""] 11:13:01 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:14:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 11:15:19 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:49 our res usage (real memory) is 111 megs at this moment (test server, very little usage, no idea when the last gc happened) 11:18:24 but the allowed max dynamic space size is around 3 gigs with the live servers :) 11:19:50 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:20:00 *attila_lendvai* still remembers the 0.000714 GHz and 0.00005 gigs of ram of his first computer 11:20:26 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:30:37 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:32:40 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 11:33:38 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:50 tiesje`` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 11:39:56 bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-174-7.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:42:28 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-56-108.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:42:58 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 11:46:54 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178034034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:50:42 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:51:35 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:01:35 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:03:14 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:04:13 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 12:08:46 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 12:10:06 when I expand my macros I get #. Is this because my macros are only expanded in one level? 12:10:40 #. isn't a macro, it's a reader macro 12:11:28 check *print-level* 12:12:03 ah, thx! =) 12:12:38 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176023269.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:15:04 eaumontab [n=abeaumon@46.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 12:16:38 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@46.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:34 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:20:08 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:20:34 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.216] has quit ["leaving"] 12:25:19 tiesje``` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 12:25:19 -!- yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has quit ["  ."] 12:30:05 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.216] has joined #lisp 12:30:40 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 12:32:17 -!- neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:38:10 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:40:20 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.73.4] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:40:44 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.73.4] has joined #lisp 12:42:57 oudeis [n=oudeis@192.117.39.100.static.012.net.il] has joined #lisp 12:44:03 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 12:45:49 -!- eaumontab is now known as abeaumont 12:45:50 -!- tiesje`` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:46:12 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:06 elurin [n=user@85.96.232.164] has joined #lisp 12:50:44 H4ns2 [n=Hans@p57BB9CFD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:52:25 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:58:39 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:59:03 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:00:12 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:00:39 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:00:55 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:02:25 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:02:34 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:02:46 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:02:58 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 13:04:05 -!- rtra_ [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:04:28 tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:04:35 -!- tiesje``` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:06:17 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@78-1-160-59.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:02 Hi! Does anyone know a function which allows me to execute Emacs-lisp code from (say) SBCL within a Slime session? 13:07:33 eval-in-emacs 13:08:42 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9B7A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:48 lichtblau: Thanks! 13:09:07 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:10:09 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host198.190-226-114.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:10:15 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host65.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 13:10:37 yango_ [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 13:11:02 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:11:42 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 13:11:48 Does anyone know if there's a way to do "collect if" with the loop macro? I only want to collect values that aren't nill. 13:12:25 if ... collect ... 13:12:25 <_3b> if x collect x ? 13:12:51 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:13:11 "is there a way to do ... with loop" is optimized at parse time to "t" 13:13:53 _3b: But supposing x is something you want to only evaluate once? 13:14:05 <_3b> if x collect it ? 13:14:31 <_3b> for temp = x when temp collect temp ? 13:16:49 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:17:24 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.2] has joined #lisp 13:17:37 _3b: The "if x collect it" one worked :D cheers 13:20:06 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176023269.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:20:23 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:31 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:22:32 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:22:56 mld [n=user@cekyrij.olf.sgsnet.se] has joined #lisp 13:24:34 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:31:35 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 13:31:45 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:35:49 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 13:35:58 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 13:37:25 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@192.117.39.100.static.012.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:38:00 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 13:41:05 -!- mld [n=user@cekyrij.olf.sgsnet.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:45:49 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:46:52 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:48:23 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:51:12 athos_ [n=philipp@p54B86ADA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:17 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:10 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:54:15 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:05 joebrunner [n=joe@206.81.49.171] has joined #lisp 13:59:39 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 14:00:33 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 14:01:02 -!- tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has left #lisp 14:03:25 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 14:04:29 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 14:08:06 If your searching for something in a tree recursively, you find it but then want to return the branch above the goal, how would you do it? It's a puzzler.. hmm 14:08:11 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:08:19 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:37 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B864C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:26 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:09:41 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:10:05 kzar: Sounds like a depth first search, kind of. 14:10:30 hum, in sbcl what sb-kernel:get-header-data returns has the same meaning for any type or it varies per-type? If it varies where can I see the definition? (and also, if the header-data is 24 bits the other bits are the type tags? Isn't there a missing bit there?) 14:13:26 -!- phao [n=phao@20158177116.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:13:26 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:13:58 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:15:55 Quadrescence: Hmm I thought of how to do it, possibly a stupid way though: Have two special variables, one to store the goal and all the branches you want above it and one as a counter. As your going back up the tree you check if what the tree variable ends with the next part of your branch and that the count is > 0, if both a true put that part of the tree at the start of the variable. Then finally return that varia 14:15:55 ble and it should be a tree just containing the goal and X number of branches above it. Thinking about it, it's kind of like my "solution" to that MU puzzle but with that extra counter part 14:17:04 <_3b> maybe just pass the parent as an extra param and return that instead of the match? 14:18:30 <_3b> or define matching to mean having a child that matches, instead of being a matching node 14:18:51 kzar: Hum, this might be a good exercise for me to try, since i'm not very good in lisp, however, I am interested in trees and whatnot, and have worked with them in some ways before (I am making a puzzle solving program) 14:19:16 <_3b> or return some marker that says to return the parent when unwinding from recursion 14:21:09 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 14:21:45 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:24:29 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:25:41 dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:22 neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has joined #lisp 14:31:09 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.232.164] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:17 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 14:37:14 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:26 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:39:29 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:39:58 Mazingaro [n=tetsuja@host201-224-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:43:41 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:47:37 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:14 chawls [n=nix@bzq-219-145-16.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:25 ecuzzill [n=ecuzzill@c-24-131-19-37.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:04 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5fc8.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:52:49 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 14:52:53 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:52:59 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:02 i guess there isn't any sort of standard CL support for immutable types (cons, hash-table) 14:54:13 Hi... does lisp have "built in" support for regular expressions? 14:54:22 chawls: no 14:54:43 minion: tell chawls about cl-ppcre 14:55:00 well, cl-ppcre is almost like builtin... :) 14:55:03 chawls: look at cl-ppcre: CL-PPCRE is a portable, Perl-compatible regular expression library by Edi Weitz. http://www.cliki.net/cl-ppcre 14:55:13 thanks stassats 14:55:21 especially with cl-interpol 14:55:54 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-10-136.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:56:16 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 14:56:33 chawls: there's also http://common-lisp.net/projects/cl-irregsexp/ 14:56:34 locklace: the standard frowns upon modification of literal objects. so literals are effectively immutable, and that property is enforced by an army of nasal demons 14:56:56 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:56:57 which attack at the time of their choosing 14:57:02 doesn't clisp bark for modifying some literal objects? 14:57:37 "some"? 14:57:51 cmm: literals are not useful, however, except when you want literals ;) 14:58:09 isn't the prohibition only about modifying literals in compiled files? 14:58:17 hi, is there something like a default startup-script for clisp in which i can define some functions which i always want to get loaded? 14:58:19 i just remember seeing some errors in some discussion... so, take it with a piece of salt 14:58:39 bakkdoor: ~/.clisprc, iirc 14:58:47 ah ok thanks 14:58:49 kreuter: I believe not 14:58:54 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:59:03 okay. 14:59:05 kreuter: clhs for "quote" has the exciting detail 14:59:09 right 14:59:46 bakkdoor: ~/.clisprc.lisp, even 14:59:56 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:59:57 ok thanks 15:03:44 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:57 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a6f-227.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:05:44 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a6f-227.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:03 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 15:10:49 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 15:12:06 curtosis [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.226.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:34 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:12:50 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084120.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 15:16:41 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 15:18:15 milanj [n=milan@77.46.250.182] has joined #lisp 15:19:47 Did kzar ask about DFS Return Path just over an hour ago? 15:22:35 -!- neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:15 (off-topic?) is anyone aware of lisp code for the 'circular lattice' tree visualization method (Daida et al 2005 "Visualizing Tree Structures...")? 15:27:09 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:32:50 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:50 -!- esden`away [n=esden@repl.esden.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:23 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:45 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:14 nyef: I'm not sure about the name but I think so yea. I decided to go with _3b's idea of returning a number each time, if that number is > 0 then I return the tree instead of the result of calling the function and reduce the number. 15:35:43 nyef: It's a pretty clean way of doing it but there's a bug in my code somewhere so I have been trying to figure that out since then 15:36:01 minion: paste 24437? 15:36:04 Paste number 24437: "DFS return path" by Raging-Thunder in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/24437 15:36:25 I don't know if this is what you want, but it might be worth a look anyway. 15:37:00 disumu [n=disumu@p57A24740.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:25 nyef: Cheers, I have bookmarked that for later 15:38:11 The important bits are annotations 3 and 4. 15:38:27 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp145.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:39:28 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp145.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 15:40:34 (Since they contain "working" code, and one of them even has an example of use to show what was intended.) 15:41:10 FareWell [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:33 Any native speakers of French around? 15:42:49 oui 15:42:51 beach: there's you 15:43:01 dlowe: thanks! 15:43:26 FareWell: Could you have a quick look at this http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/texte.html please? 15:43:32 beach: I live to serve :D 15:43:46 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:58 FareWell: I am dyslexic these days, so I no longer see my "phôtes". 15:44:26 beach: ne dit-on pas "courriel" plutot que courrier-E ? 15:44:59 phao [n=phao@20158190019.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 15:45:03 FareWell: oh, that's part of the form I filled out. I don't want to change that. Here, one has a tendency to use "courrier électronique". 15:45:05 s/et d'ecrire/est d'ecrire/ 15:45:16 oops, thanks. 15:45:56 fixed. 15:45:58 *FareWell* goes talk to beach privately 15:46:24 beach: I hesitate to offer :) 15:46:49 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:47:05 Xof: aww! 15:47:59 Xof: espece de rosbif, va! 15:48:42 (Xof probably has *better* French, with fewer ugly colloquialisms) 15:49:04 (the best spoken french I've ever heard was from a newly arrived romanian high-schooler) 15:49:40 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:15 beach: I'd replace "courrier-E" with "courrier électronique", or simply "email" 15:53:46 minion: chant 15:53:47 MORE LOANWORDS 15:53:49 mvilleneuve: email is forbidden by the toubon law 15:53:49 "Dû à la différence" -> "De par la différence" 15:54:05 mvilleneuve, he could have the cops knock at his door for using it 15:54:28 (I've had the gendarmerie knock at a friend's door for alleged violation of said law) 15:54:37 russians call FedEx and the like "courier post" 15:55:08 i.e. "courier mail" 15:55:25 natural languages are weird 15:55:27 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:48 FareWell: that's not unusual; non-native English speakers often have better English than most native speakers 15:55:53 natural languages are so artificial! 15:56:40 FareWell: what did your friend do? 15:57:01 beach: oui 15:57:22 rsynnott: Especially so for the Finnish ones (or at least that's my observation) 15:57:43 mvilleneuve, the romanian friend? he went to the Ecole Normale Superieure, and eventually become a professor (and last I knew occupied my retired father's office) 15:57:50 Finland also has the highest proportion of _Latin_ speakers in the world 15:58:08 FareWell: no, the one who violated the Toubon law 15:58:23 in the meantime he learnt enough french slang that his french isn't perfect anymore 15:58:41 I'm often tempted to try to learn Finnish just to see if I could do it half as well as the Finns I know do English. 15:59:11 oh well, the gendarmerie didn't press charges - he argued that he didn't get any public funding for his conference and thus was not bound by requirement of a french-speaking conference 15:59:30 (bizarrely, when they held the EU presidency, the Latin version of the presidency website had more visits than any except the Finnish one) 15:59:33 chandler, Finnish is (apparently) horribly difficult to learn. Try Swedish! ;) 16:00:06 now, I've seen computer science conferences that did get public funding (if only use of university rooms) and were in english -- only no pseudo-private "associative" monopoly bureaucracy pressed charges. 16:00:13 *beach* experiences information overload 16:00:31 will the vatican join the EU? 16:00:43 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084120.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:55 tic: Can it really be harder than English? 16:00:59 FareWell: nah, it'd never meet the human rights requirements 16:01:01 FareWell: I sure hope so. we'll drown them in bureaucracy :D 16:01:19 chandler, I wouldn't know. I've been spoonfed with English since childhood. 16:01:23 Thanks to all the native speakers of French for the help. 16:01:50 FareWell: wow, that's quite scary. Think the only restriction on use of public funding for academic stuff here is that you're not allowed advocate hatred 16:01:51 -!- photon3 is now known as photon 16:01:54 Now you can tell me if it is a good enough project that a group of students will actually choose it. 16:01:54 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084120.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 16:02:01 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@p54B86ADA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:02:02 tic: English is my native language, but that does not prevent me from struggling with it at times! 16:02:14 (the college I went to got in trouble for having Fred Phelps as a guest speaker at a student society) 16:02:18 beach: Le but du projet eSt 16:03:10 chandler, then imagine us non-native English speakers! The pain! ;) 16:03:18 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-126.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:46 kuwabara, you're too late :) 16:04:15 kuwabara: yeah, I still do it phonetically. Thanks. 16:04:25 FareWell: nope, you didn't catch that one. 16:04:29 did 16:04:32 not 16:04:38 neeners neeners 16:04:39 heh 16:04:46 t'was a different occurence. 16:04:56 (I think) 16:05:00 beach: don't you think students may think that the project is too complex/ambitious? Wouldn't something simpler (PDF viewer?) be a better project to start with? 16:05:04 ok 16:05:08 Did I hear French? 16:05:14 What's this project? 16:05:34 beach: I don't understand how you match spacing on screen vs on paper 16:05:35 mvilleneuve: I don't think so. The M1 students have already seen this as *the* project of PP3 last year. 16:05:56 do you shift the on-screen version slightly to the nearest pixel? 16:06:14 FareWell: I change the font, so the words won't be equally wide. Therefore I have to fiddle with inter-word spacing. 16:06:44 lnostdal_ [n=lnostdal@149-42-153.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 16:06:56 so you round the font size, then adjust the spacing -- but the print version is authoritative and the screen version is the approximation? 16:06:56 elurin [n=user@85.96.232.164] has joined #lisp 16:07:05 maybe that should be clearer in the proposal 16:07:18 FareWell: So I determine the number of words on a line based on some pessimistic measure of widest-possible words in this or that resolution. Then I space them independently for each type of display. 16:07:32 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:38 beach: that could surely break very badly with some fonts? 16:07:50 is it wysiwyp or not? 16:10:28 Stupid SBCL question: How should one use FD-STREAMS (like the ones associated with sockets)? Should one wrap them in something else to use them for I/O? Or is there some way to extract a more full-fledged i/o stream from them? 16:11:18 rpg: what do you mean by "more full-fledged" ? 16:11:21 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-115-234.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:04 can clisp compile lisp code? 16:12:23 fe[nl]ix: I was trying to write a string to the stream corresponding to a socket and was surprised that write-string wasn't supported on it. seems like fd-streams are neither input- nor output-streams (but I may well be missing something critical). 16:12:37 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-115-234.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:12:44 Sorry, computer crashed. :( 16:12:46 phao: Yes. The functions COMPILE and COMPILE-FILE are required by the Common Lisp specification, and the specification also defines the minimal amount of compilation intended. 16:12:58 beach, that's why you need good persistence! 16:13:00 rpg: I think you are probably missing something critical. What arguments were passed to MAKE-FD-STREAM? 16:13:12 ok 16:13:15 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:18 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:19 phao: This may not be what you were hoping for, however. 16:13:47 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:13:50 phao: CLISP compiles Common Lisp to bytecode, which is then interpreted. I have heard that there is an experimental JIT these days too. Most other implementations compile to native code. 16:13:50 chandler: I was just calling sb-bsd-sockets:socket-stream on an open socket to get the fd-stream. 16:14:17 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 16:14:33 rsynnott: that is why a special font is part of the suggestion. 16:14:45 chandler: should i have been calling socket-make-stream instead? 16:14:48 Fare: "p"? 16:15:01 print 16:15:04 -!- lnostdal_ is now known as lnostdal 16:15:08 what you see is what you print 16:15:11 rpg: That method is a wrapper for MAKE-FD-STREAM, so what arguments did you pass it? 16:15:21 FareWell: I am betting you won't see the difference, but no, they are not the same. 16:15:42 I mean, will you cut lines at the same word 16:15:47 yes. 16:16:01 rpg: Er, that is what I assumed you meant. At least my version of SBCL doesn't export something named sb-bsd-sockets:socket-stream. 16:16:05 will said line cut change if I change the resolution / zoom ? 16:16:20 no 16:16:36 ok, so the print version is authoritative 16:16:51 FareWell: in that it has the highest resolution, yes. 16:16:55 chandler: sorry -- you are right -- I was lost in the mazy pathwasy of the code. Hang on and I will have an answer. 16:16:56 neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has joined #lisp 16:17:37 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0E61B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:56 last time I tried, I had really bad luck using socket-streams on non-blocking sockets 16:17:58 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.73.4] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:17:59 I don't think I have to explain it further in the project proposal, because the students that are potentially interested are supposed to contact me and I'll explain things in detail then. 16:18:04 I wonder if the situation has improved 16:18:22 chandler: Now I see. I passed no arguments in (aside from the socket). Clearly that was The Wrong Thing. 16:18:54 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.73.4] has joined #lisp 16:19:06 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:12 mvilleneuve: still there? 16:19:25 beach: yes 16:19:49 mvilleneuve: So I am suggesting 3 projects: Stamp, Specialized Common Lisp editor, and this one. Seems OK to you? 16:20:08 chandler: Thanks. Now I see. 16:20:08 what is stamp? 16:20:09 aren't there already specialised common lisp editors? :) 16:20:14 beach: absolutely 16:20:28 FareWell: An Email reader based on tags. 16:20:38 beach: what about some work on xcvb? 16:20:48 or on erlang-in-lisp? 16:20:51 (just saying) 16:20:52 rsynnott: This is an interactive structure editor. 16:21:25 FareWell: what is xcvb? 16:22:02 ah, interesting :) 16:22:03 minion, xcvb? 16:22:04 FareWell: erlang-in-lisp sounds very good, but am unable to be the advisor on such a project, and the students are utterly unable to understand it. 16:22:05 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``xcvb''. 16:22:11 FareWell: erlang-in-lisp? 16:22:12 http://common-lisp.net/projects/xcvb/ 16:22:13 -!- nagi [n=nagi@195.248.67.249] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:22:21 as in an erlang wire protocol impl, or something else? 16:22:33 chandler: quick cultural question --- there's documentation about the make-fd-stream arguments, but it's in the comments for that function. Is it a conscious decision by the SBCL developers to avoid using docstrings for this sort of thing? 16:22:46 minion, xcvb is a shift from ASDF, separate compilation for CL at http://common-lisp.net/projects/xcvb/ 16:22:49 httpcommon-lisp.netprojectsxcvb: CL: i don't agree - xcvb isn't a shift from asdf separate compilation 16:22:49 e.g. for efficiency? 16:23:03 rpg: you should call socket-make-stream with :element-type :default :input t :output t 16:23:06 gah 16:23:23 rpg: perhaps also :buffering :full (or :line) 16:23:51 [1]edon [n=edon@82.114.94.2] has joined #lisp 16:23:55 FareWell: heh! 16:24:15 fe[nl]ix: Thanks! 16:25:17 FareWell: how is the erlang-in-lisp project going? 16:25:18 rsynnott, hopefully, we'd eventually have a full erlang in lisp implementation, as well as the parts available for a more lispy use. 16:25:29 mvilleneuve, stalled since summer 16:25:38 rpg: :element-type :default make it a bivalent stream, if you only output characters then 'character or 'base-char might be faster 16:25:40 the student did produce the very basics 16:25:58 but none of the really interesting stuff 16:25:59 a beam interpreter, then? 16:26:02 cool :) 16:26:13 FareWell: I can remember having coffee with you at some square in some town, but I can't remember the town, nor the country :( 16:26:26 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:26 -!- [1]edon is now known as edon 16:26:31 (would make a very interesting project for compiler design students, actually) 16:26:42 beach: Metz 16:26:46 rpg: I don't think so. Patches welcome. 16:27:00 FareWell: Ah, makes sense. Thanks! 16:27:11 rsynnott, no he did the basic concurrency and messaging work in lisp, including working with fork 16:27:30 chandler: OK, will do. But I'd be embarrassed to call a minor reformat of someone else's real work a "patch"! 16:27:32 rsynnott, but he got none of the process tree management 16:27:52 A patch is anything which applies with 'patch < foo'. 16:28:45 chandler, fe[nl]ix: Thanks for your help. 16:28:56 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 16:29:10 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E3EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:29:12 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 16:29:50 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:30:45 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:16 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D806.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:46 rpg: probably 90% of all patches sent to anyone are a couple of lines :) 16:31:49 chandler: Is the SBCL CVS the right place from which to work? 16:32:13 or has this moved to some more exotic distributed scheme? 16:32:13 Yes. 16:32:15 Yay! I am a producer of electricity! (sorry OT) 16:33:21 beach: there is now signal in your brain's nerves? 16:33:35 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084120.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [No route to host] 16:33:40 rpg: I'd work from a sbcl git 16:33:46 froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 16:33:54 kzar pasted "Recursion problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70722 16:33:57 beach: aren't you an illegal competitor of EDF? 16:35:09 That function is doing my head in, I have been staring it for ages and I can't see my mistake. The (- branches 1) seems to be ignored, the next format after that line just shows NIL instead of a number. (That's even if I replace (- branches 1) with 9 or something! It's really wierd 16:35:28 FareWell: they are forced by law to pay me 10 times as much as I pay them for the same energy. 16:35:34 probably not terribly competitive; France is one of the few countries which can actually afford to export lots of electricity 16:35:37 ah 16:35:49 kzar: What's up with the IFs in the multiple-value-bind? 16:35:59 beach: that's absurd 16:36:07 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:20 FareWell: sure is. but I have a 20 year contract, so I'm fine. 16:36:30 beach: some form of renewable? 16:36:32 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 16:36:38 rsynnott: solar panels 16:36:46 Oh! 16:36:46 ah 16:36:47 "subsidizing expensive polluting ways of producing energy in the name of pseudo-competition" 16:36:49 beach: 20 year contract for literally "we pay you 10x what you would pay us"? 16:36:54 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 16:37:03 foom: yep 16:37:08 kzar: Doesn't OR only return a primary value? 16:37:09 wow...crazy 16:37:10 foom: er, no. 16:37:24 foom: "we pay you this price!" 16:37:27 (Perhaps the primary value for any form other than the last, then all values, but still...) 16:37:41 yep, same story here and in Germany; ludicrous money paid to wind people, and energy they produce guaranteed by idling coal plants 16:37:42 foom: which *right now* is 10 times. 16:37:42 right: 20 years from now, that price might not look so good. 16:37:44 madness 16:37:54 foom: indeed. 16:38:08 mchurch [n=user@ec2-67-202-38-234.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 16:38:12 mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:38:33 rsynnott: at least the idling coal plants aren't generating much pollution 16:39:03 and eventually someone will build some dams and pumps to store energy to replace the expensive coal plants or something 16:39:07 unfortunately, they are; coal plants take a VERY long time to switch on, so they're burning quite a bit just to keep going 16:39:19 it might even be cheaper to "overpay" for wind energy, because you end up paying less treating for respiratory diseases 16:39:24 (it makes slightly more sense in France because the backup can be provided by nuclear, which is clean anyway) 16:39:30 ah, then eventually someone'll build natural gas plants. :) 16:39:31 but it's so much easier to just say "madness" 16:39:36 eh, getting expensive stuff in the name of forced competition -- once again they sacrifice the end in the name of the means. 16:40:05 Xof: at least in Ireland, it seems that it hasn't actually reduced fossil fuel consumption at all 16:40:17 if it does in the future fine 16:40:21 for now, madness :) 16:40:45 In France I understand that it's a question of having signed the Kyoto agreement. Now we have to figure out a way of making it work. Giving subsides to people like me is one way. 16:40:47 I don't believe that anyone here is actually qualified to judge whether it's mad or not 16:40:57 (including me) 16:41:01 beach: how do you produce? 16:41:03 Xof: we are the lisp dudes, we know anything. 16:41:20 FareWell: Solar panels hooked up to the grid. 16:41:20 we probably know madness, at least. 16:41:22 Xof: That's the beauty of the US healthcare system. "Other people" pay the costs of those diseases. 16:41:27 minion: chant! 16:41:28 MORE CODE 16:41:37 chandler: thanks! 16:41:43 Xof: I believe a lot of people here are qualified to judge. Except no one's qualified to judge who's qualified to judge. 16:41:44 sorry I started this! 16:42:00 FareWell: very deep that! 16:42:03 qualify that: no one's qualified to judge for others - but everyone's qualified to judge for himself 16:42:18 nyef: I'm not sure about the or thing, let me try.. 16:42:28 beach: I was tempted to go for MORE NUKES, but I don't think that would help :-) 16:42:58 kzar: The other thing I'd recommend is taking a break, and then looking at what you're trying to accomplish without reference to this function you've already written. 16:43:06 no, I don't even believe that. I don't believe that I, for instance, am capable of correctly estimating the overall costs and benefits to myself of any particular policy. (Keyword: "correctly") 16:43:12 nyef: Oh yea, that might be the problem then.. bugger 16:43:35 anyway, back to pretending to hack 16:43:37 nyef: I think a break is in order or I might break my monitor heh... 16:43:42 heheh 16:43:48 nyef: Thanks for the pointers 16:46:49 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 16:46:49 16:46:49 -!- names: ccl-logbot agemo mathrick mchurch adeht acrid danlei froog__ edon ebzzry H4ns neurogeek jpcooper Odin- davazp beach rpg elurin lnostdal gigamonkey alec FareWell disumu rindolf mgr milanj curtosis syamajala jestocost LiamH esden rdd daniel bakkdoor Fade malumalu ecuzzill chawls sellout fe[nl]ix Mazingaro yhara mattrepl dthomp suzume deximer oudeis dlowe cemerick mehrheit Mr_SpOOn tritchey kzar yango_ Tordek_ Jasko attila_lendvai araujo H4ns2 16:46:49 -!- names: ``Erik_ ignas inetic xinming abeaumont matley bertskert ThomasI ecraven grkz ths VityokOrgUa silenius ia johs dialtone varjag gonzojive_ kuwabara mega1 yahooooo schme_ pierre__thierry toddoon ramkrsna lichtblau Nshag prowack Bzek ianmcorvidae froog_ stassats segv Modred photon kidd p_l ace4016 cmm CrazyEddy kleppari slash_ gigamonk` REPLeffect tessier_ dash_ madnificent kpreid rlpowell locklace kami-` nyef hefner billstclair ltbarcly_ ineiros_ 16:46:49 -!- names: Adrinael Paraselene_ wlr brickhazel Aisling spiaggia Khisanth replor_ b4|hraban l_a_m gaja hypno tc-rucho wgl Zhivago dostoyevsky spiderbyte stragerLN dto phadthai Draggor dfox_ slyrus pchrist jmcphers mvilleneuve Modius srcerer Quadrescence bohanlon DrForr_ ltbarcly holycow kmkaplan l4ndfo sabetts drewc xan cods Zoba z0d bob_f jajcloz sad0ur specbot minion lisppaste Buganini hsaliak dwave Patzy borism bpt _Soulman_ Fare mogunus Soulman eevar_ 16:46:49 -!- names: cky mr_uggla tokenrove rumbleca tltstc fnordus bobrown`` lemoinem azuk dmiles_afk isomer keram V-ille erg jeremiah pchrist|univ mbac e271 cYmen mikezor pragma_ luis tessier jsnell nasloc__ r0bby delYsid michaelw guenther__ merlincorey Eno_ kreuter mtd joga vcgomes Partyzan1 larstobi boyscared chandler felipe tic koning_robot andrerav albino bunz froydnj lucca abend_ zbigniew maxote rsynnott sjbach jkantz_ herbieB _deepfire Riastradh zenbalrog 16:46:49 -!- names: sykopomp kuhzoo simonb dublpaws authentic fihi09 technik vorian spacebat pok Thas prip djinni` emma pkhuong bdowning olejorgenb p8m mqt sbok mdxi Wombat1 slava Tristam mcxx bougyman thijso meingbg dcrawford andrewy Cel housel ahaas Chrononaut enn PissedNumlock scode bfein foom clog _3b chii qebab rey_ @antifuchs gz keithr retupmoca bascule turbo24prg thedonvaughn Xof aking Guest53748 jollygood_______ Cryovat puddingpimp eirik djkthx jrockway 16:46:49 -!- names: mornfall Bucciarati 16:47:00 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:47:00 joebrunner [n=joe@206.81.49.171] has joined #lisp 16:47:03 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 16:47:04 froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 16:47:05 heh 16:47:17 well, I have printouts of all the relevant specs; how hard can this be? 16:47:21 willb [n=wibenton@wireless06.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:47:24 cpape [n=user@p5484D1AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:25 chandler: I agree! That wouldn't help. 16:48:27 Xof: this wouldn't happen to be the Apple X server, would it? 16:48:45 If so, I don't think there's a good answer to "how hard can this be?". 16:49:02 Guest31518 [n=Miranda@ip-90-186-153-21.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:03 chandler: no, actually, for a change this is brokenness under non-Apple software 16:49:06 I know that that's rare 16:49:19 :) 16:50:56 FareWell: can we use XCVB for project management ? 16:51:08 FareWell: to replace asdf ... 16:51:10 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:23 l_a_m: you can, but xcvb still has some rough edges 16:51:49 -!- froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:52:05 I mean, it basically works, except for one known bug and glaring lack of usable interface 16:52:27 but yes, I've used it successfully for one project 16:53:38 drdo [n=psykon@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 16:53:57 FareWell: do you have any doc to migrate an existing system from ASDF to XCVB 16:54:04 FareWell: point 6 in TODO :) 16:54:06 zoba2 [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:54:24 (internal at ITA - we "want" to make it free software but never schedule resource to do the hard work at pulling it apart from our overall project) 16:54:43 l_a_m: docs I don't know, but an example using a-d-g 16:55:09 (except that it is a local fork of a-d-g -- dunno how it would work with upstream) 16:55:19 has a-d-g been released upstream recently? 16:55:37 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:55:45 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:56:17 -!- zoba2 is now known as Zoba 16:56:55 speaking of which ... XCVB? 16:57:15 tic: yes? 16:57:36 *FareWell* sees a-d-g 1.0.0 on http://boinkor.net/lisp/asdf-dependency-grovel/ 16:57:55 FareWell, nevermind; I'll have a look at the lists instead. 16:58:15 No updates for a month. 16:58:30 indeed, no one's actively working on it at this point 16:58:40 are you interested in it? 16:58:53 Only superficially. 16:59:22 carlo [n=carlo@195.143.104.254] has joined #lisp 16:59:27 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 16:59:48 -!- carlo is now known as Guest65756 17:00:10 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has left #lisp 17:00:16 Hi... I would like to know if it is possible to use the 'case' special op to compare strings, ie somehow to instruct it to use a different comparison function that 'eq', e.g. 'string=' 17:00:21 Thanks for your help! 17:00:22 I'm interested in some superior asdf replacement 17:00:24 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 17:00:35 Guest65756: nope 17:00:36 Guest65756: it isn't possible 17:00:50 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 17:00:52 Guest65756: there's some string-case macros on the internets, though 17:01:04 beach, dlowe: Thanks. 17:01:04 Guest65756: but I am sure that people have written their own versions of CASE to do that. Alexandria perhaps? 17:01:28 -!- mchurch [n=user@ec2-67-202-38-234.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:51 Erik Naggum's on comp.lang.lisp springs to mind 17:02:01 mchurch [n=user@ec2-67-202-38-234.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:03 dlowe: Can you point me towards them please? 17:02:13 pkhuong wrote a really amazing string-case macro a while ago 17:02:35 Guest65756: http://www.google.com/search?q=lisp+string-case 17:02:38 dlowe: cool! amazing in what way? 17:03:30 IMHO, CASE is very weak. If I had to do serious pattern matching, I'd implement OCaml-style matching. 17:03:31 Guest65756: it computes a prefix graph at compile time to maximize efficiency. It is almost certainly overkill for a language structure 17:03:38 http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/a79ba3b04895a4d8?dmode=source 17:04:08 mchurch: CASE was designed for the compiler to be able to generate a jump table. 17:04:50 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has quit [] 17:05:17 equal-case is probably a nice macro project for a beginner 17:05:27 Ah. That makes sense. 17:06:30 mchurch: the same is true for switch in C and `case' in Pascal. 17:07:03 dlowe: thanks 17:07:11 mchurch: how would your Ocaml-style matching distinguish between the many equalities? 17:07:15 beach: Cool. I guess I was critiquing it the way I would a high-level language feature, forgetting about the compiler benefits. 17:07:33 -!- edon [n=edon@82.114.94.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:08:08 mchurch: Yeah. I keep repeating that I like Common Lisp as much as I do because the designers knew perfectly well what they were doing in terms of efficiency of generated code. 17:08:13 Which construct would you recommend to someone who wants to keep things simple? cond? 17:08:29 Guest31518, what's the real purpose? 17:08:29 Default would be to use EQUAL on atoms, with list and array matches (excl. strings) defined recursively 17:08:38 froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 17:08:51 how many cases are there? 17:08:59 Strings would be treated as atomic rather than array because anyone who actually cares about wildcards, etc. within strings ought to use regex libraries 17:09:52 -!- dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:10:30 *beach* listens to "Scenes from a Memory" yet again, and is amazed yet again. 17:10:33 clim complete-from-possibilities 17:10:34 FareWell: To assign handler functions to URIs. 17:10:34 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/24-5.html#_1351 17:10:49 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5fc8.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 17:10:57 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D75C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:24 -!- Guest31518 is now known as OdinsGhost_afk 17:11:27 Guest65756: If you can live with matching case-insensitively, you can use (case (find-symbol (string-upcase some-string) :keyword) (:foo 1) (:bar 2) ...) 17:11:43 Guest53748, you should be using an existing web framework 17:11:57 beach: who is that by? 17:12:06 Dream Theater 17:12:11 -!- OdinsGhost_afk is now known as OdinsGhost 17:12:17 -!- OdinsGhost is now known as OdinsGhost_afk 17:12:35 FareWell: I am. I'm overriding some low-level stuff for enjoyment.. 17:13:44 careful, now :) 17:13:48 which are you using? doesn't it already use some collection of macros that includes a being case for strings? 17:13:49 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:14:41 I just suggested a series of seminars to my research lab (300 members) about Lisp. 17:15:29 I'll start on December 11, and do a seminar whenever there is nothing else programmed. 17:16:19 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 17:16:45 *tic* is playing some random Mike Oldfield tunes on his plastic recorder. 17:17:00 FareWell: Hunchentoot. The low level structure I am playing with is the dispatch table. 17:17:22 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:17:29 ah, that sort of makes sense 17:17:40 hunchentoot's built-in dispatch stuff is very basic 17:18:06 -!- FareWell [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:18:34 jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has joined #lisp 17:19:09 Xof, that hash table case stuff is pretty interesting, nice link (he seems to have a pretty basic bug in his macro though, using the symbol 'hashtable' directly...?) 17:20:56 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 17:21:26 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:22:00 xan: the symbol is uninterned :) 17:22:15 -!- OdinsGhost_afk [n=Miranda@ip-90-186-153-21.web.vodafone.de] has quit [] 17:22:19 arwed [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:22:33 whot .. MVC & containers is up and running: http://desktop-sw.nostdal.org/mvc-container-app (this will be a bit slow; proxy + adsl-line here atm... :/) .. http://desktop.nostdal.org/~lnostdal/programming/lisp/symbolicweb/examples/mvc-container.lisp ... :) 17:22:47 nostoi [n=nostoi@193.152.135.105] has joined #lisp 17:23:42 -!- froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:24:29 Thank you all for the information! 17:24:33 -!- Guest65756 [n=carlo@195.143.104.254] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:25:11 dlowe, oh, I see! I suspected I was missing something :) 17:25:16 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:25:37 ..this is cool because now i can make changes to the data (or "model") in an application and have the widgets (or "views"; many different widget-types can view the same model) updated or synced in real-time 17:25:51 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5fc8.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:11 lnostdal: you abbreviate make- to mk- ? 17:26:26 yes, attila_lendvai 17:28:07 it's a bad idea imho, but the result looks good 17:29:00 if i do this with *app* bound to my session: (setf (value-of (first (content-of (slot-value *app* 'model)))) "blah") 17:29:01 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:29:36 in the repl ... ..both views of the data, container-1 and container-2, update on the client 17:30:25 one can still type (make-instance 'stuff) if one want to, attila_lendvai .. they are just tiny simple wrappers around that 17:31:03 99% of them just work as a way to enforce required arguments and, yes; i get to type a bit less :) 17:31:09 attila_lendvai, btw, in the memory code you pasted the other day, for simple-fun objects you return 0 as allocated space (not counting the recursion). Is that OK or you just had no idea how to calculate it? 17:32:19 josemanuel [n=josemanu@113.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:32:33 clim member 17:32:33 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/23-8.html#_1276 17:33:22 Xof: It is great to see some Gsharp activity! 17:33:30 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:33:56 Xof: I keep thinking it could be a real `killer app'. 17:34:05 xan: simple-fun's don't capture anything. counting the space its program code uses is probably not what you want... 17:34:35 Xof: I can't remember whether I told you about my presentation of Gsharp in Angoulêm, but it went very well. 17:34:46 er, Angoulême 17:34:50 cool 17:37:31 -!- froog____ is now known as froog 17:38:27 Xof: you seem to know more than I do about some plans to convert OpenMusic to SBCL/McCLIM though. 17:38:42 I do? 17:38:52 I think I know nothing about such plans 17:39:26 So I have been told. You apparently conspired with Carlos what's-his-name-again during ELS (according to Antoine Allombert). 17:39:29 Typical. Any links I might have on blog feeds are on my other computer. :-/ 17:39:50 I do know that we have some research / digital library projects here which would benefit from a flexible notation editor and visualizer 17:39:54 oh, yes, you're quite right 17:39:57 xan: well, it could be a keyword arg to compute-allocated-size to do that, but i don't know how to get the actual number 17:40:00 but I have done absolutely nothing about that 17:40:07 I should get in touch with Carlos Agon 17:40:17 we said we'd spend a week on it and see what happens 17:41:04 Xof: I think perhaps you should, yes. He apparently just took the page breaking algorithm out of Gsharp and stuck it into OpenMusic, and he has reported that it just worked. 17:41:05 attila_lendvai, so the difference between simple-fun and a closure is whether or not they capture anything? the sources only say closures are more 'complex' 17:41:40 Xof: then he wanted to know how it worked, so I gave hime the published paper on it. :) 17:41:44 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:41:49 xan: that's how i understand it, but i didn't spend much time with that at all... 17:43:12 yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:43:40 beach: is that paper linked from the gsharp website? 17:44:02 I doubt it. 17:44:37 Xof: that experience indicated to me that the modularity of Gsharp is not too bad. 17:44:38 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:44:38 attila_lendvai, ok, thanks :) 17:45:17 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:45:23 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:45:55 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:46:11 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:32 Xof: I just think that now that the LaBRI is giving me 3 months of developer time for things are are joint between OpenMusic and Gsharp, we should take advantage of the momentum to do the right thing. 17:47:10 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 17:48:37 -!- yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 17:49:04 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@193.152.135.105] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:50:02 benny [n=benny@i577A0726.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:51:09 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 17:51:29 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:51:30 kzar annotated #70722 with "I threw up on my keyboard but it works.." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70722#1 17:52:18 God it's so ugly, I really hate how I wrote that 17:52:51 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 17:52:58 Kindof suggests that you're taking the wrong approach or solving the wrong problem. 17:53:13 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:07 nyef: Yea, I should have just use a quick perl regexp instead of parsing the page into a tree with some library, searching the tree with my horrible function and then converting it all back into html again 17:54:47 Hindsight is wonderful, isn't it? 17:54:53 heh 17:54:54 And we even have cl-ppcre! 17:55:15 nyef: Yea, I should have just used that and been done with it I guess heh 17:55:47 famous last words 17:56:44 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:56:47 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:51 Good practice though I guess on the plus side heh, my recursion and tree walking obviously needs work 17:57:18 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:58:11 can I print the bits of an integer in some way? 17:58:30 bertskert: (format t "~2R" 12431) 17:59:06 (let ((*print-base* 2)) (print 42)) ? 17:59:07 Xof: Myriam says that the deadline for referee reports is tomorrow, so we still have to wait a while for answers. 17:59:12 mulligan [n=user@78.52.51.229] has joined #lisp 18:00:12 beach: thanks! 18:00:15 -!- drdo [n=psykon@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:03:25 Xof: No problem. For once, I could remember something long enough for it to still be relevant :( 18:04:20 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:04:28 ndpratas [n=ndpratas@bl10-80-44.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:04:35 hello guys 18:04:39 i need some help 18:04:58 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:01 can someone remove my http://paste.lisp.org/display/70602 18:05:45 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:05:52 its now online and my classmate friends are now copying my code 18:06:07 I believe chandler is the person to ask. 18:06:11 and this is a project of my school 18:06:33 and its very bad if someone copy that code 18:07:08 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 18:07:39 Is it bad because you shared it, or is it bad because you might be accused of having taken it from someone else who was sharing it? 18:08:06 I say leave it. 18:08:13 becousebecause I might be accused 18:08:22 from my teachers 18:08:26 ndpratas: we can explain 18:08:49 i realy didnt think about this problem 18:09:00 That is if it wasn't verboten to ask for help in the first place 18:09:01 when i post that 18:09:40 -!- bascule [n=bascule@static-ip-62-75-255-124.inaddr.intergenia.de] has left #lisp 18:09:46 -!- ecuzzill [n=ecuzzill@c-24-131-19-37.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:09:53 can we remove that??? or not? 18:09:56 ndpratas, refactor your code before sending it and then they'll all have the same code that they don't understand (if my experience is to be trusted) 18:10:21 yes, people will at most rename variables. :) 18:10:45 i tryed this now "The paste 70602 has been marked as spam. Thank you!" 18:10:59 ndpratas: It's OK, anyone handing in that code should fail. 18:11:02 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:36 i dont think so becouse we are all developmend the same project and the code is similar 18:11:51 ndpratas: inconsistent and wrong indentation, using underscores in names, etc, etc. 18:12:06 one of my classmate friends told me now 18:12:13 ndpratas: commented-out code 18:12:32 ndpratas: wrong and inconsistent spacing 18:12:58 beach: http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/gsharp-timesigs.png 18:13:07 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:13:07 ./openurl 15 18:13:09 oop 18:13:11 ndpratas: wrong number of `;' in comments 18:13:13 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:52 Xof: Nice! (though I need to work on the horizontal reference of the digits). 18:14:10 beach: that one's marginal 18:14:42 beach: yeah, and we need to work on multi-digit and multi-component time signatures 18:14:47 rsynnott: but, but, that's the selling point of Gsharp! I want it to be perfect! :) 18:15:02 also, some of the glyphs are more successful than others, but the 8 is definitely not very successful to my eye 18:15:11 I agree. 18:15:16 I like the 7 though. 18:15:27 beach: I was talking about the wrong number of ;, but that too :) 18:15:38 rsynnott: ah, sorry. 18:15:42 Xof: is that written with mcclim? 18:15:49 yes 18:16:03 it renders very nice-looking sheet music, though 18:16:36 rsynnott: how do you know? :) 18:16:53 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:04 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:17:56 OK so do we have someone on #lisp who would like to redisign the `8'? 18:18:08 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-34-186.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:18 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:18:40 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-39-9.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:18:47 Xof: I figure the 9 is similar to an upside-down 6, and the 0 is trivial, and neither is probably urgent for you. 18:19:04 the 9 is mildly urgent; 9/8's quite common 18:19:16 true 18:19:18 "urgent" is relative, of course 18:19:20 -!- bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-174-7.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 18:19:36 0/8 is a lot less common though. 18:20:50 Xof: today was hell because of meetings and solar-panels. Tomorrow is hell because of my having to prepare my (last) Friday lecture. Next week should be much better. 18:21:34 Xof: oh, and you need to check Ross for the spacing between the key signature and the time signature. 18:21:51 absolutely 18:22:00 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:24:10 somewhere around page 140 as I recall. 18:24:23 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 18:24:33 so 18:24:43 can someone remove my post or noT? 18:24:59 now i have allready solved the error 18:25:03 ndpratas: I maintain that it should be kept. 18:25:25 ndpratas: and that anyone who turns in something like that should fail miserably. 18:26:13 ndpratas: let me add: mixing first and c?r. 18:26:30 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-126.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:26:31 ok 18:26:37 yes 18:26:53 change everything you want 18:26:59 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 18:27:08 ndpratas: using IF without an `else' branch is another problem 18:27:28 remove tabela sff 18:27:35 the first defvar 18:28:04 ndpratas: there are so many problems in that code that your professor should fail anyone who copied it. 18:28:25 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 18:28:29 if you can change remove percorre-linha 18:28:42 and percorre-zeros 18:28:55 or simply remove the append '(x) 18:29:22 ndpratas: You should include the link in your submission, and explain that you asked for help, but then found out that other seemingly copied that draft. 18:29:23 ndpratas: I think your initial plan was brilliant: post some code that is sure to fail anyone who hands it in, and then encourage them to copy it. 18:29:58 ndpratas: why did you put it on th'internet if you didn't want people to see it? 18:30:07 but how i change it 18:30:09 ? 18:30:12 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:00 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:31:12 drwhen [n=drwho@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:14 ndpratas: I would probably also fail you for mixing languages in identifiers. 18:31:35 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Success] 18:32:06 ndpratas: this is all to reassure you that you should have nothing to fear from people copying this code. 18:32:13 goodness, you're very strict. I seem to remember the approach in my college being more or less 'goodness, they got it working! Full marks!' 18:32:17 *fusss* is wondering how best to represent conses in flash AVM2, and whether a cons-less Lisp is worth using. avm2 has objects, arrays, and strings. 18:32:39 rsynnott: not in Bordeaux. 18:33:06 hold on a second. I agree with you but how can i re-edit the post 18:33:27 where shoud i go 18:33:31 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:32 where shoud i click 18:33:48 ndpratas: you wouldn't want to! I understood your plan was for everyone to copy this crap, and for you to hand in the good thing. 18:34:00 (I think it was more a man-power issue than anything else; generally very difficult problems were given and merely getting them working was grounds for more or less full marks) 18:34:07 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 18:34:19 so... 18:34:31 you have allready changed my code??? 18:34:35 it is now changes 18:34:37 ndpratas: I don't think anyone who maintains that paste thing is about 18:34:52 ndpratas: Surely, you are not giving the URL of this code to your advisor, right? 18:34:58 FZ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 18:35:20 it deppends 18:35:23 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:35:26 rsynnott, what would be a very difficult problem? 18:35:48 ndpratas: I strongly advice you not to, given all the problems I just told you about. 18:35:56 if we can change the post i will not send the url 18:36:12 ndpratas: forget about changing the post. 18:36:19 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.29] has joined #lisp 18:36:26 -!- Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:36:29 miyodea [n=msellers@70-240-63-105.bn02927.snantx.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:14 ndpratas: in general, if you put something that you want to keep private on the internet you may have difficulty in getting rid of it 18:37:26 ndpratas: but I would have thought the absolute opposite: if you can't change the post, then whatever you do, don't submit the URL to it. 18:38:30 -!- miyodea [n=msellers@70-240-63-105.bn02927.snantx.wayport.net] has left #lisp 18:38:31 ok 18:38:42 now i cant acess the post 18:38:50 its cool now 18:38:51 ndpratas: also, like I said, your initial plan was brilliant: post crappy code and have everyone copy it and hand it in like that. You wouldn't want to ruin that plan by improving the code. 18:39:53 the things curve-marking will drive people to ;) 18:40:24 What is the right expression to say something like "finish an evening smoothly" (that is by drinking some beer)? 18:40:36 minion: lisppaste 18:40:41 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 18:40:53 tcr: highly region-specific, I think 18:41:01 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41:27 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-074-011-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:39 beach pasted "ndpratas' code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70727 18:41:45 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:42:03 lol 18:42:05 I think the MSLUG posts tend to say something original like "end the evening around a couple beers" (: 18:42:07 beach: that's evil :P 18:42:50 thank you beach 18:42:51 rsynnott: some things really annoy me. 18:43:55 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:45:18 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:18 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:45:53 gigamonk`: infoq.com has been interviewing a few of the people in C@W. more research for you! 18:48:24 -!- kidd [n=kidd@119.Red-88-11-107.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:59 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:50:37 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 18:50:49 Adamant [n=Adamant@AASU-101-61.Armstrong.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:51:09 Can anyone recommend a Lisp script package for Vim? 18:51:39 -!- mulligan [n=user@78.52.51.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:51:48 mulligan [n=user@78.52.51.229] has joined #lisp 18:52:02 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:52:03 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@AASU-101-61.Armstrong.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:52:06 minion: limp 18:52:12 limp: Limp, a Lisp IDE for vim. http://www.cliki.net/limp 18:52:27 -!- ndpratas [n=ndpratas@bl10-80-44.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:52:28 stragerLN: i'm not sure if that is what you mean by "lisp script package" 18:52:29 though ideally at least give emacs/slime a go first :) 18:52:46 rsynnott: "it is emacs based, i can't use it" 18:52:51 Tried Limp; was a nightmare. 18:53:02 rsynnott: "i have invested half of my youth learning vim, i cannot switch" 18:53:05 rsynnott: It's emacs-based. I can't use it. 18:53:10 heheh 18:53:12 stragerLN: so there. slime + emacs it is. 18:53:26 stragerLN: or try php, that works well with vim! 18:53:33 (or cusp isn't horrible, if you like eclipse) 18:53:38 H4ns: I know PHP too well ;P 18:53:55 it has just enough slime features to make you irriated at the ones it doesn't have, though 18:53:56 stragerLN: seriously. emacs. 18:54:25 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:54:53 H4ns: Main thing with emacs is that it requires a lot of control keys (or so I hear), and I fumble those a LOT. 18:55:00 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a82e1a2f5b45bcf5] has joined #lisp 18:55:08 One key is enough for my hands to handle =[ 18:55:19 for the last 8 years, i refused to use languages that didn't have an emacs mode :-| 18:55:21 consider it an investment 18:55:25 stragerLN: you seem to capitalize things just fine :) 18:55:51 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["leaving"] 18:55:53 stragerLN: you could also consider a commercial lisp with an ide if you can't use emacs. 18:56:06 dv___ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:56:07 dlowe: Hah; shift is tons larger than control. 18:56:27 dlowe: i ususally have caps lock mapped to control, not that i use it much 18:56:32 dlowe: i mean stragerLN 18:56:34 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 18:56:34 stragerLN: that's why I have caps lock mapped to control :) 18:56:50 what H4ns said 18:56:56 stragerLN: I put my Control to the left of the `A' where it should be. 18:56:57 I hit caps lock on accident way too much it's crazy. Not with any other keys though... 18:57:20 stragerLN: that mapping is actually really standard. Also, emacs doesn't actually require that you learn all of those keys. 18:57:23 stragerLN: you could also get yourself foot switches for meta and control. bill clementson did that a while ago i think. 18:57:24 stragerLN: beach has solved /both/ of your problems at once! 18:57:46 while I feel it'll make you slower, it turns out that emacs -does- have clickety-click with little menus and stuff for everything you need 18:57:51 H4ns: lol 18:57:54 stragerLN: but it all boils down to: give emacs a serious try. it gives you the superior common lisp experience. 18:57:56 H4ns: Laptop =] 18:58:06 sykopomp: I hate menus and stuff. 18:58:11 H4ns: Yeah, yeah. 18:58:18 so if you have fear-phobia, you can use emacs just fine, even though you'll be slow (but not any slower than what you'd be like with a regular IDE) 18:58:19 H4ns: Not like I'm not gonna try it. 18:58:24 H4ns: AND the superior lisp interaction mode for emacs! 18:58:24 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:32 Just seeing if there's a way for Vim which is suitable for a beginner. 18:58:46 sykopomp: Right; tradeoffs. 18:58:51 stragerLN: as you already tried limp, you're out of options now. 18:58:56 cpape` [n=user@p5484C361.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:07 stragerLN: you're complaining about keys, yet you like vim? :| 18:59:28 sykopomp: Vim doesn't require modifier keys most of the time. 18:59:42 And if they do I've remapped them. 18:59:50 stragerLN: no, but it has pretty fancy bindings. Your hands will be all over the place just as much, tbh 18:59:51 ah damn I'm too late to mention vim 19:00:00 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-34-186.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:00:17 stragerLN, so what are you using to get out of insert mode? 19:00:18 escape? 19:00:20 stragerLN: Seriously, look into beach's suggestion of remapping Caps Lock to Control. It is much easier to hit that way. 19:00:26 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 19:00:34 b4|hraban: Yes, not ^[ 19:00:38 stragerLN: also, are you aware that there is a vi mode for emacs? 19:00:40 because if you find hitting ctrl annoying, how can you /ever/ cope with moving your left pink to escape all of the time 19:00:49 sykopomp: I heard it sucks like crazy. 19:01:02 b4|hraban: I use my left middle finger 19:01:08 stragerLN: I've heard of some vimmers that ended up converting to it. The reports are mixed. 19:01:09 Or index 19:01:09 wow even worse 19:01:33 you could bang it with your head a few times as well, in the hope you will hit it 19:01:34 b4|hraban: Pinkies are inoperable xD 19:01:44 Essencially, that is. Not useful for typing 19:01:44 b4|hraban: I never use ESC. I use Ctrl-[ 19:01:51 *sykopomp* is a dvorak user, and greatly disagrees. 19:01:57 I tried viper on emacs when I was switching from vim, and it was a truly awful experience. 19:01:59 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:02:10 beach, agree (well, I use ctrl+c myself, but the idea is the same) 19:02:17 I actually tend to hit ESC C- instead of C-M- 19:02:25 sykopomp: did you switch your keys around or do you just ignore them? 19:02:35 stragerLN, also, I have to agree with sykopomp to disagree, and I'm not even a dvorak user 19:02:40 Moving a hand is easier than contorting the fingers sometimes. 19:02:46 chandler: and I wouuld use C-[ C- 19:02:51 it's great for the return button, the backspace button, the apostrophe etc... 19:02:52 dlowe: when I was first learning dvorak, I swapped out all the keys on my laptop. 19:02:56 Disagree with ? 19:02:58 I wouldn't really want to write lisp without slime 19:02:59 too annoying 19:03:02 dlowe: but now I don't bother, my current keyboard is mapped qwerty. 19:03:18 disagree with your statement about the pinky being inoperable 19:03:22 beach: Oh. I never think to do that, tbh. 19:03:22 it's a matter of practice 19:03:31 Muscle memory is a strong force! 19:03:37 unless you have a physical/psychological handicap, of course 19:03:39 b4|hraban: I use my ring finger with that. I can't use my pinkies for typing; it's not like I choose not to use them. 19:03:39 dlowe: the main change I do, though, is I swap my () and <> in X, meaning I have pretty much every key I'll type regularly (except for numbers) within a one-level reach :) 19:03:43 then I don't know. 19:03:44 chandler: indeed! 19:03:48 dvorak is lisp's best friend ever 19:03:56 stragerLN, well you do choose not to train them, or am I wrong? 19:04:00 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 19:04:25 sykopomp: I didn't have any problems learning dvorak for English, but I couldn't get over the muscle memory for key combinations :/ 19:04:27 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:04:42 b4|hraban: That may be it; I just can't aim with my pinky at all. 19:04:54 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:04:55 practice makes perfect 19:05:02 dlowe: I ended up getting my emacs muscle-memory on dvorak. Besides C-f, I really like the way it turned out. 19:05:03 I'd hit `, 1, tab, F1, etc instead of ESC 19:05:16 you shouldn't use esc in the first place 19:05:17 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-58-90.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:18 it's a horrile button 19:05:21 *horrible 19:05:29 b4|hraban: key* 19:05:38 frankly, the escape button must be what I dislike(d) most about vim 19:05:47 button, key, ok 19:05:59 is it that much a difference? 19:06:04 I always thought they were interchangeable 19:06:10 It's easy to hit for me. 19:06:24 b4|hraban: all keys are buttons, but all buttons are not keys :) 19:06:24 the mouse is easy to hit for me, too, doesn't make it efficient 19:06:25 Keyboards have keys; buttonboards have buttons. 19:06:36 dlowe, so escape is a button? 19:06:51 The escape key is a button, yes. 19:06:56 b4|hraban: escape is a key. the thing you press to generate an escape signal is the button 19:06:59 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:07:06 b4|hraban: it's contextual 19:07:07 dlowe, well then I am talking about the button 19:07:30 because it is not the escape key that I loathe, it's the button that has the text esc on it, alllll the way over there in the corner of my keyboard that I can not stand 19:07:52 b4|hraban: the key location and size varies with hardware 19:08:36 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:08:41 b4|hraban: Mine's a scrunched laptop keyboard so I don't mind hitting it. I use F1 to compile, so I go ESC/F1 for compile cycles. (C++ compiling, of course... Not in PHP or Lisp. Unless I can map 'evaluate blah' to F1 in emacs ...) 19:09:14 stragerLN: C-c C-c C-c C-z to drop into the REPL >_> 19:09:17 hahaha <_< 19:09:27 god. I love emacs. I love how it tortures newbies. 19:09:43 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:10:41 mm Seems I have to map ^X (screen key) to something else then ... 19:10:43 Any good keys? 19:11:05 stragerLN: C-z 19:11:06 ^Z 19:11:16 sykopomp: C-c C-z is enough 19:11:19 That's suspend =[ 19:11:28 Which I use a lot 19:11:32 You can still use it. 19:11:45 § ? 19:11:48 C-z z, will let it pass through. 19:11:56 i use ^^ as screen escape key, which is ctrl-6 19:12:06 stragerLN: C-z is a pretty common screen binding. I had it at C-\ for a while, too. 19:12:15 screen, gnu screen? 19:12:18 but I'm using a happy hacking now, and C-\ became a much smaller target. 19:12:19 C-a screen? 19:12:23 on a finnish keyb, the button to the left of 1 is pretty obsolete, I know some use that as the screen's command key 19:12:39 b4|hraban: Yes. 19:12:45 b4|hraban: ^A is for something else. 19:12:56 ok.. 19:13:02 stragerLN: C-a is for beginning-of-line ;) 19:13:03 b4|hraban: I have some triply-nested screens for reasons I won't bother mentioning. xD 19:13:17 I use C-o on some systems, because I don't actually use the open-line command at all. 19:13:26 I think C-z is the most common mapping for screen/emacs users. 19:13:31 ahaas: I know that, but it'd confuse me for a while ... "why isn't suspend working?" 19:13:54 C-z is a good idea, since I rarely intentionally suspend things. 19:14:06 Most of the time, it's a flub for C-x. 19:14:08 ouh I do that all the time.. 19:14:17 stragerLN: Yeah, but once you start using emacs, you are going to want to use C-a, etc., a lot more frequently than suspend. 19:14:51 orwxell [n=n-1@79.99.2.65] has joined #lisp 19:14:55 ahaas: =] 19:15:10 ahaas: Well, I'm not sold on Lisp, so I'm not going to convert to emacs immediately. 19:15:14 -!- cpape [n=user@p5484D1AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Success] 19:15:33 That is a lot of configuration to go through just to sample Lisp. 19:15:55 But, Lisp without Slime is not a good survey. 19:15:59 I've used it a bit before, but copy-pasting to change a function gets annoying 19:16:11 eh? 19:16:13 Right. 19:16:15 wat 19:16:42 stragerLN: You must be doing something wrong. 19:16:42 Oh, I guess you mean using a REPL without Slime? 19:16:45 I've noticed that a lot of people want a modeful editor, and personally I'm not opposed to the idea. I wonder what kind of keybindings you'd create for a modeful structure editor. 19:17:05 stragerLN: In absence of SLIME, use LOAD. 19:17:19 chandler: Oh; I did not know. I was just copy-pasting into the interpreter 19:17:20 xD 19:17:29 What is "xD"? 19:17:34 stragerLN: what interpreter? 19:17:41 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 19:17:42 crossed eyes with an open mouth. Emoticon. 19:17:51 Oh. Why bother? 19:18:37 beach: First clisp... When I installed Limp I had to use SBCL or something, which just wouldn't work right (printed garbage half the time). 19:18:56 What do you mean by "garbage"? 19:19:09 Random characters appeared instead of a prompt 19:19:20 Actually, it did print the prompt /sometimes/ 19:19:21 stragerLN: if you're not actually interested in using lisp, why are you here? 19:19:29 stragerLN: You must mean the REPL then rather than the 'interpreter'. 19:19:33 can someone recommend to me a jvm targetting scheme that is well documents, internally and has good papers? i need some inspiration for a lisp targetting a stack machine. 19:19:33 sykopomp: I am... Did I say I wasn't? 19:19:49 stragerLN: Well, just so you know, with Slime you can evaluate functions with a keystroke right where you are typing them and that's what I meant by getting an accurate evaluation of Lisp. 19:19:53 beach: Yeah; I'm a newb. I know this. =] 19:19:58 stragerLN: You said you're not sold on it, and you are being quite resistant about it. 19:20:15 ahaas: I know ... I haven't got to that stage yet. 19:20:20 fusss: #scheme would be the right place to ask that! 19:20:20 sykopomp: he probably thinks Lisp is interpreted. 19:20:21 sykopomp: Resistant about what? Lisp? 19:20:29 beach: probably. 19:20:37 rpg [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has joined #lisp 19:20:38 beach: I know it's compiled on-the-fly 19:20:46 stragerLN: no. SBCL compiles to native code. 19:20:49 not JIT 19:21:03 It's kinda a mix of interpreted and compiled I would say. It's implementation-specific. 19:21:14 sykopomp: Oh, okay. 19:21:18 stragerLN: clisp compiles to bytecode, which is then JIT-compiled. 19:21:33 stragerLN: sbcl doesn't interpret by default 19:21:34 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 19:21:53 All generalizations are false. 19:22:04 SBCL does interpret sufficiently simple expressions by default. 19:22:06 heh! 19:23:08 #lisp can be a minefield sometimes. 19:23:57 oh, ok. brb 19:24:02 is there a way to shadowing import all conflicting symbols from a package? 19:24:37 ah :) 19:25:23 do-symbols, if, find-symbol, shadowing-import? 19:25:48 or maybe handler-bind etc. 19:25:56 adeht: shadowing-import can't import all 19:26:26 gigamonk`: Got someone loving your book. :o 19:26:33 mathrick: what do you mean? 19:27:08 adeht: it needs an explicit list of symbols 19:27:19 I want it to find out itself 19:27:25 *on its own 19:27:40 I suggested a number of constructs to be used together 19:28:14 Is it possible to get a bivalent fd-stream in SBCL? 19:28:17 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 19:29:42 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:30:02 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-22-126.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:23 rpg: use :element-type :default 19:30:52 er, but that may not work with line buffering 19:30:53 kreuter: I thought :element-type default defaulted to base-char? 19:31:10 er 19:31:11 no 19:31:29 -!- mulligan [n=user@78.52.51.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:36 if you don't supply an element-type, it ends up defaulting to character. 19:31:43 (by twists and turns) 19:32:14 kreuter: Thank you --- I got confused between "defaulting the element-type argument" and "supplying :default as :element-type". 19:32:32 yeah, it doesn't really make much sense ... :( 19:32:51 adeht: yeah, but I can do tricks like that myself. I was asking for a canned solution, really 19:33:37 mathrick: michaelw did something on that line for slime+sbcl. 19:33:43 search on slime-devel 19:34:42 tcr: ah, thanks 19:35:44 kreuter: I am sorry to ask another stupid question, but what is :full buffering? 19:37:08 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d66fab72fe8d85e4] has joined #lisp 19:37:09 rpg: basically, "buffering" 19:37:31 kreuter: So that shouldn't be incompatible with a bivalent stream? 19:37:43 no 19:38:32 line buffering (for an output stream) means that every time you write a newline to the stream, the buffer gets flushed. full buffering accumulates output until the stream's buffer is "full", then flushes. 19:39:18 -!- l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:51 And if you care, you can always request a buffer flush yourself. 19:39:54 IIRC, there happens not to be support for line buffered bivalent output streams. I have a patch around for that, I think. 19:40:00 kreuter: btw, have you seen this post? I think you mentioned /dev/fd/xxx pathnames once upon a time.. http://groups.google.co.il/group/sbcl-devel/browse_thread/thread/5d8421ced17b3f4b/aa6d9023e6c33bba?hl=en&#aa6d9023e6c33bba 19:40:24 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5fc8.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:41:18 glibc e.g. returns "" for the filename, or something like that 19:41:45 nyef, kreuter: Thank you very much. That should be enough to see me through. 19:41:46 adeht: I think I'd rather see streams for things other than regular files not be file-streams. 19:42:50 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:43:25 foom: you can ask a stdio stream for its filename? 19:43:46 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:06 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:45:36 errr, I guess that's python that does that, not libc, sorry. 19:45:43 I'd have thought that the filename for stdin was /proc/self/fd/0 19:45:53 hello lispers 19:46:46 (Yes, that tends to be a symlink, and might do interesting things on non-linux systems or for pipes, but...) 19:47:38 hello all 19:48:37 curtosis_ [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.226.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:48 sys.stdin.name == ''; os.fdopen(0).name == '' 19:49:09 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 19:49:26 given that the name of a file you opened is usually only for printing debugging information, that isn't really that bad a choice to put arbitrary strings there 19:49:38 I'm using SBCL and I have a function which take a pretty long list as argument, and when there is a condition signaled in this function, the backtrace is so long that I cann't see the upper part of the backtrace unless I redirect it in a file (which is pretty incovenient)... isn't there any way that sbcl display only the first elements of this list ? 19:50:09 foom: It's those few other use-cases that cause the problems. 19:50:26 nyef: sure, but those are probably already broken. :) 19:50:41 lemoinem: You might be able to do something in terms of backtrace-as-list. 19:50:47 there's no guarantees after the file was opened what's happened to it since 19:50:52 lemoinem: consider debugging in slime. 19:51:53 Or, a quick (describe 'backtrace) tells me that it takes as a first optional parameter an upper bound for the number of frames to output. 19:52:18 pkhuong: that's what I do, but when it's an error which pop in the shell, it would be nicer to be able to directly read the trace 19:52:30 (The second optional parameter is a stream to output to, making a file redirection slightly more convenient.) 19:53:38 -!- curtosis [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.226.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:53:40 I believe screen lets you scroll on stderr output too. 19:53:57 nyef: I don't actually want to limit the number of frame displayed... but prevents sbcl to display the argument at large 19:54:15 pkhuong: it is outpassing the screen history 19:54:56 lemoinem: put "defscrollback " into your .screenrc 19:55:04 Hunh. I just noticed two things on this system. One is that the windows key is apparently mapped as a modifier (found that one by accidentally hitting it instead of alt to try and indent, and emacs said that s-q is unbound). 19:55:29 And the other is that the context-menu button behaves as M-x in emacs. 19:55:35 is it possible in a file to call asdf:load-op and use the loaded package ? I'm writing samples for my manual and I like that a sample is contained in a single file 19:55:53 s/button/key/ 19:55:58 there's always *print-length* and all that. 19:56:03 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx08721.chantva.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:16 kiuma: Yes. It is possible, but it's not always pretty. 19:56:30 I'd say it's always not pretty. 19:56:50 kreuter: It really depends on the use-case for the file-as-a-whole. 19:57:07 so sould I say to 'manually' call asdf ? 19:57:09 (I'm mostly just talking 'bout asdf) 19:57:15 Adamant [n=Adamant@AASU-196-61.Armstrong.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:57:20 Ah, well yeah. asdf is rarely pretty. 19:57:20 I post my sample 19:58:50 kiuma pasted "sample for manual" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70731 19:59:03 but it doesn't work 20:00:01 Looks fine to me... so long as you LOAD it rather than COMPILE-FILE it. 20:00:02 I mean the asdf part 20:00:16 pkhuong: look likes I was looking for *print-length*... thanks 20:00:25 kiuma: you need to do that both at compile-time and at load-time. have a look at eval-when. 20:00:33 May I recommend investigating... yeah, eval-when. 20:00:48 kreuter, for the full package ? 20:00:55 ths_ [n=ths@X72ca.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 20:00:59 Have a look at the macroexpansion for in-package for an example. 20:01:12 No, just for the asdf:oos calls. 20:01:26 ok thank you 20:01:37 clhs eval-when 20:01:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm 20:03:40 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 20:04:05 kiuma: while you're at it, read all of CLHS chapter 3. 20:04:14 ok 20:04:22 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF745.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:04:33 good point 20:04:38 thanks 20:08:20 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45042.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:06 evening ppl 20:10:37 anybody in the mood to help with a macro problem... 20:10:40 ecuzzill [n=ecuzzill@c-24-131-19-37.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:55 well at least i think its macro related 20:11:03 Why does everyone have macro problems and not micro problems? Is appreciating the small things now out of style? 20:11:12 lol 20:11:58 Harag: Don't ask to ask, just ask. 20:12:00 the problem is the micro problems are the ones i usually figure out myself so when I ask its usually a macro one ;) 20:12:27 nyef: it's because Lisp lets you make bigger problems. 20:12:36 Ahh. 20:13:18 Russel-Athletic [n=Russel@d174.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has joined #lisp 20:13:18 hiho 20:13:59 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-039-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:09 perhaps this is a strange question but is there a faster way to sort and delete duplicates in a list rather than just (sort (delete-duplicates list)) ? 20:14:34 Harag pasted "eish" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70732 20:14:40 sunwave [n=sunwave@host-217-213-126-32.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:00 Russel-Athletic: if you ensure that no duplicates occur to begin with and ensure that the list starts out sorted, then probably just #'identity. 20:15:26 well i tried pushnew but this is still slow 20:15:28 Harag: use a function 20:15:30 Russel-Athletic: the equivalent of sort | uniq will probably be faster. 20:15:58 i mean basically what sort and delete-duplicate is a bit the same 20:16:38 Harag: it is also likely that you want (str ...) rather than (:str ...) 20:16:47 netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has joined #lisp 20:16:57 Harag: or even (esc ...) 20:17:03 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:16 ok i can change the order but still delete-duplicate will check the whole list but it only has to check the part of the list where the numbers are 20:17:58 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 20:18:00 adeht: str sorted it 20:18:02 thanx 20:18:13 but now the big question is why? 20:18:49 all the examples I have been looking at use :str 20:18:49 because that's cl-who's syntax.. I suggest reading the manual 20:19:06 the :str above it works fine 20:19:35 are you quite sure about that? 20:19:41 yes 20:19:45 Russel-Athletic: You could write your own function to remove duplicates from a sorted list, and that would make it faster. 20:19:46 you're still wrong :) 20:19:51 Russel-Athletic: I don't really see how delete-duplicate and sort are ``a bit the same''. In any case, maybe you want a counting sort. It's hard to tell what exactly it is you're sorting. 20:20:03 Harag: try looking at the generated html 20:20:16 if it's something like (:div :id (:str whatever)) it might, bit not if it's (:div (:str whatever)) 20:20:27 (though it probably won't have outputted entirely valid html) 20:20:29 what do you mean by counting sort? 20:20:31 Russel-Athletic: At a guess, the best way to solve this problem would be with a heapsort, where you could avoid inserting duplicate items into the heap before producing the sorted list. 20:20:34 the generated HTML has the empty STR in it if I use :str 20:20:48 yep, it thinks you mean a html element 20:21:26 Russel-Athletic: A counting sort is a form of non-comparison sort. If that works for you, it may be best yet. 20:21:43 a-s [n=user@92.80.109.26] has joined #lisp 20:22:03 chandler: quicksort and mergesort could also be adapted. 20:22:38 pkhuong: counting sort's complexity is lower, no? 20:23:13 thanks for the tips so far 20:23:26 bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:36 but as i don't want to implement more stuff than i have to i will probably leave it at that 20:23:37 madnificent: depends on how you implement it. Naively, it's actually pseudopoly. 20:24:32 pkhuong: pseudopoly, what does that mean? 20:24:33 ok so what you guys are saying is that :str transalates to which is wrong...with that I agree 20:24:36 thanx 20:24:53 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-10-136.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [] 20:25:05 anyone german here who can help me? please join #lisp.de 20:25:34 and :div works for instance because int translates to a valid html tag by accident 20:25:48 : Div 20:26:04 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:22 madnificent: It's linear in the largest number M; That number actually takes lg M bits to represent and M is in Theta(2^(lg m)). 20:27:05 -!- Russel-Athletic [n=Russel@d174.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:11 -!- arwed [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:27:23 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:45 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:50 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 20:28:26 -!- mchurch is now known as kefka 20:28:44 pkhuong: the upper bound does depend on another factor, yes... I was thinking of random cases. Counting sort should be faster in most cases. 20:29:53 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:31:29 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:31:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 20:32:55 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:34:53 Ok I checked the documentation and the :str was a mistake on my side..just for future reference something actually displays the "something" in the browser...fun fun fun 20:35:26 klingon [i=ales@93.85.33.153] has joined #lisp 20:36:21 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:58 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:06 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 20:37:38 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:37:50 1 20:38:02 klingon: Hm? 20:38:39 Sorry 20:39:31 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:39:52 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:40:15 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-42-153.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:53 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-42-153.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 20:41:37 -!- curtosis_ [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.226.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:41:55 curtosis [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.226.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:41 This is kindof random, but... Why does sbcl --help not mention --noinform? 20:43:02 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 20:43:17 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:43:25 it doesn't? 20:45:11 Not on 1.0.11. 20:45:14 Might now. 20:45:37 (Yes, I know that's almost a year old.) 20:45:53 does appear on 0.9.8 20:45:56 and not in 1.0.22.7 20:48:24 On SBCL, if LOAD is passed a pathname without an extension, and there are both .fasl and .lisp files for that pathname, which will be loaded? 20:49:35 if .fasl is older than .lisp, an error will be signaled, otherwise .fasl will be loaded 20:49:56 froydnj: peephole might be simpler than trying to coerce reg alloc into doing what we want wrt computing directly to/from memory on x86oids. 20:51:28 stassats: Instead of just loading the .lisp? Hunh. 20:51:33 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 20:51:49 pkhuong: probably, although I'm skeptical that peepholing is a good solution--that register you freed up converting MOV REG, MEM / OP X, REG to OP X, MEM might have been quite useful 20:51:52 nyef: That might not always be WYM. 20:51:54 Oh well, I can live with that. 20:52:27 pkhuong: and clearly it does work for integer ops (although maybe not always optimally), so I'm curious why it's not working equally well for float ops 20:53:23 maybe the vops is not being specified how I think it should be specified 20:53:57 froydnj: it could always re-pack after peephole, but that's obviously smelly. 20:56:24 Is ARM really going to be the first soft-float SBCL port? 20:57:39 blitz_ [n=blitz@77.64.176.217] has joined #lisp 20:57:46 think so, if somebody's really doing an ARM port 20:57:50 Not if you were targeting the EABI, which IIRC uses VFP and has the kernel emulate it if the hardware does not support it. 20:58:54 chandler: Ooh. That's neat. 20:59:05 But I don't appear to be able to find the EABI specs. 20:59:38 Is kernel emulation really faster than calling a soft-float library directly? 20:59:56 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has quit [] 21:00:03 (And is the kernel emulation specified to trap the same way as the VFP would, or would we lose if we expected that?) 21:00:16 There is some information on http://wiki.debian.org/ArmEabiPort . 21:00:23 I think the assumption is that you'd be running EABI binaries on hardware floating-point; the kernel exists only as a fallback 21:00:27 Oh, EABI lets you mix hard- and soft-floats. 21:01:28 Oh, great, -more- terminology fuckups. 21:01:45 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:01:50 I like the claim of general fasterness, even without an FPU. 21:02:47 Looks like it makes sense to have it as a build option. 21:03:37 -!- ecuzzill [n=ecuzzill@c-24-131-19-37.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:03:50 By the way, the latest Gumstix looks very nice. 21:04:08 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:18 http://www.gumstix.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=211 21:04:29 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 21:04:36 ahaas: it's "pokemon like". fun times eh? be back later. 21:04:41 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:04:52 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:05:37 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 21:06:10 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:54 rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:18:03 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:54 cadabra` [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:55 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 21:21:22 -!- mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:25 mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has joined #lisp 21:21:57 kgn [n=kglovern@129-97-40-183.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 21:22:16 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-10-136.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:22:19 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:47 kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:25 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 21:23:56 So Adobe donated its AVM2 ActionScript 3 VM, codename Tamarin, to mozilla. the mozilla crew ran with it and worked since 2006, if I read correctly, to merge SpiderMonkey .. 21:24:39 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-182.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:24:44 the project was canceled two years later, because, among other reasons, it would have needed a way to "to load and run bytecode from memory without going to disk (to implement eval)" 21:24:47 gonzojive [n=red@DNab422461.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:24:53 https://wiki.mozilla.org/JavaScript:ActionMonkey 21:25:20 fusss, *blink* is that a real problem? 21:25:34 And this is amusing because it's a generally-solved problem for many real-world environments? 21:25:51 tic: how do you know? they may fire up gcc in the background... 21:26:00 attila_lendvai, good choice! 21:26:13 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:18 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:26:28 hardly, just had a moment of running into an unexpected wall, Re: my delusions about wanting to make a Flash based Lisp, or at least a bridge 21:27:10 ...my forefox is eating 756 MB of memory currently. a restart a day keeps the crash away... 21:27:15 the_unmaker [i=d8cde040@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-cdd00fd4983ed90d] has joined #lisp 21:27:23 fusss: I read that as "canceled because it was slow, but here are other features that we never got around to adding that would also be necessary" 21:27:36 i just don't buy it tho. really? eval? 21:28:39 fwiw, AVM2 spec is missing page 105 ;-) back to offline insanity 21:28:42 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 21:30:13 attila_lendvai, I find Opera a lot snappier when you have many tabs open. 21:30:36 Hrm... 1030 words of design document. And I think it's complete enough for me to be able to start hacking tomorrow. 21:30:41 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 21:31:05 -!- curtosis [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.226.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 21:31:31 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:58 Which means I might get back to that port as early as next week, maybe. 21:32:33 -!- klingon [i=ales@93.85.33.153] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:34:33 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:39 You just dive in implementing the stuff? 21:38:15 -!- sunwave [n=sunwave@host-217-213-126-32.mobileonline.telia.com] has left #lisp 21:39:15 tcr: It varies... considerably. 21:41:26 I'm actually trying to do more advanced planning these days. Hence the design document I just wrote up for this weeks project. 21:42:01 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d66fab72fe8d85e4] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:42:07 My next step on the arm port is actually to asses the situation and figure out what needs doing next. 21:42:20 what is the best way to test whether all elements of a list are null? 21:42:35 clhs every 21:42:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 21:42:40 thank you 21:42:49 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx08721.chantva.wayport.net] has quit [] 21:44:48 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:45:17 ecuzzill [n=ecuzzill@c-24-131-19-37.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:24 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f413a.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:02 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 21:47:39 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:40 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:50:18 Hunh. I just had the sudden realization that I have absolutely no intention to use ASDF for my new project, and instead I will be defining an ad-hoc mechanism to compile and load it. 21:51:27 silenius_ [n=jl@dslb-088-074-011-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:29 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-074-011-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:52:21 Eleanore [n=a@c-d470e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:55:01 why? 21:55:07 just put it in some files and let people load it 21:55:10 be a rebel 21:55:37 kleppari_ [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 21:56:18 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:56:29 Because I'm not at all convinced that ASDF is entirely a good thing, and I want to try something else for once. 21:56:44 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@77.64.176.217] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:56:54 nyef: why ? 21:57:14 -!- kleppari_ is now known as kleppari 21:57:27 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 21:57:42 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:07 yeah, sometimes i also think to myself that a few well-defined functions would be much more flexible when loading the system requires non-trivial customizations... 21:58:28 or even trivial ones 21:58:31 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:59 asdf seems to be wildly popular here :) 21:59:03 -!- silenius_ [n=jl@dslb-088-074-011-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:32 Really, for :linear t systems, why -not- (dolist (file *source-files*) (compile-file file)), and the corresponding for LOAD? 21:59:36 yeah, just use make. and do your macros in m4 instead. heh. 22:00:21 or...just use make, and do your macros in lisp. 22:00:28 what about dependencies on other systems, reloading, etc. 22:00:31 (Yes, I realize that this heads straight into SB-COLD::DO-STEMS-AND-FLAGS territory.) 22:01:03 -!- ecuzzill [n=ecuzzill@c-24-131-19-37.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:01:05 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:01:21 adeht: you mean (funcall 'load-other-system)? 22:01:29 -!- FZ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 22:01:30 I tend to use make+asdf actually; make invokes a make-executable.lisp or something that does all the asdfing and s-l-a-d 22:01:37 adeht: I'm not sure I'm bothered at this point. I can always REQUIRE anything that has been ASDF-INSTALLED, and I don't see the need to reload... 22:02:42 lucca: Interesting. I'm figuring on a shell script that does sbcl --load "src/lisp/project/startup", and having the startup script do whatever loading is required and ending with (sb-ext:quit). 22:02:42 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:02:55 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:03:34 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:04:06 (I think s-l-a-d for deployment is a mistake, but that's a discussion for another time.) 22:04:25 l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:04:29 no argument there, but it has its uses. 22:04:48 It certainly has its uses, yes. 22:04:58 -!- gonzojive [n=red@DNab422461.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 22:04:59 it'd be less of an important mistake if there was a thing you could save and run with sbcl that didn't depend on the exact same build running it 22:05:00 I think s-l-a-d would be more useful with treeshaking, potentially 22:05:16 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:05:26 foom: That's at least partly a consequence of SBCL's attitude towards fasl-compatability. 22:05:35 what fasl-compatibility? 22:05:36 btw, this asdf/funcall thing reminds me of our stefil design decisions: why should one introduce new concepts for a test suite when we already have the lambda abstraction... just provide enough helpers that deal with the environment and defuns are the perfect tool for tests. 22:05:46 nyef: sure. 22:06:07 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:06:13 and the current attitude of fasl-compatiblity doesn't actually bother me, but unless it changes, slad is kinda important. 22:06:28 OTOH, I wouldn't expect people to be upgrading SBCL much more than once a month. 22:06:47 *nyef* apparently doesn't update SBCL more than once a year. 22:06:59 fasl-compatibility accomplished! 22:07:07 Exactly! Well, sortof. 22:07:30 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-30e60b2f9a45c776] has joined #lisp 22:07:40 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:08:15 So, does ASDF search for dependencies via REQUIRE, or are all ASDF dependencies required to be ASDF systems as well? 22:08:24 nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:25 the latter 22:08:29 it does not use REQUIRE. 22:08:35 Hrm... Pity. 22:08:39 Hello 22:08:46 this is why inter-system dependencies in ASDF work so strangely. 22:08:50 Is there a way to define + as a generic function while still keeping the existing behaviour for numbers? 22:08:59 drdo: no. 22:09:07 drdo: Yes. But it can't be CL:+, it has to be some other +. 22:09:10 pkhuong: wow, that was blunt 22:09:15 drdo: you can do that with packages 22:09:27 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD38F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:09:53 ISTM that pkhuong is correct. #'+ takes just one &rest argument, and so wouldn't be that useful as a generic function. 22:09:56 Actually... I think an implementor can get away with it as well. 22:10:04 Ah, right. 22:10:07 drdo: you'd generally want to define `+/1' and `+/2' generic functions and have `+' delegate to those 22:10:09 drdo: it's a question commonly associated with misguided desires. 22:10:28 I do not intend to do it, just curious 22:10:36 Forgot about that. And it can be called with no arguments and get a useful result. 22:10:37 and by + i mean any function previously defined 22:10:40 -!- cadabra` [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:54 -Any- function? It really depends on the function... 22:10:55 drdo: you can shadow any symbol you like 22:11:05 ... and what your lisp environment lets you get away with. 22:11:24 whether you can come up with something that works like the standard CL functions *and* is usefully specializable is a different thing. 22:11:25 (And how much trouble you want to go to.) 22:11:32 kreuter: that's the idea 22:11:47 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD38F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:49 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD38F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:11:53 so, arithmetic operators are sorta interesting and tricky. 22:11:57 i wouldn't change the semantics 22:12:12 just reuse the name for other types of arguments 22:12:26 *nyef* points out that that would change the semantics. 22:13:03 nyef: not formally. #'+ doesn't have defined semantics when the arguments aren't numbers. 22:13:19 So I notice. "Might" signal an error. 22:14:45 for example 22:14:48 however, "might signal an error" actually means "has undefined consequences, but if an error is signaled, it's of the specified type". so (+ #\a #*111) could cause the universe to explode! 22:14:56 why can't i define a matrix type and use + for sum? 22:15:07 how would that not be "right" ? 22:15:20 drdo: you can 22:15:40 drdo: if you mean cl:+, you just can't. if you mean drdo:+, you can. 22:15:54 what's the rationale behind that? 22:15:54 probably best not, though 22:16:11 drdo: what does that do when you add a complex and your matrix type? How about a quaternion and your matrix type? I don't see what the syntactic pun gives you, compared to just using another name. 22:16:30 pkhuong: a type error :) 22:16:41 *rsynnott* wonders does any language have a built-in quaternion 22:16:51 drdo: compatibility, performance, etc. the operators in the CL package are just a basis. 22:17:13 the only "bad" thing about it is that symbols like `cl:*' and `cl:+' are used for more than just arithmetic function names 22:17:23 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-56-108.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:33 rsynnott: or octonions (: 22:17:34 oh, right. but who uses those variables? 22:17:36 symbols strike again! 22:17:49 kreuter: not just variables.. for example in type declarations 22:18:03 oh, hm. 22:18:21 fair 'nuff. 22:18:36 Would declaring a + in my package and defining that + to use cl:+ for numbers be "wrong" ? 22:18:41 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 22:18:48 Harag1 [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:18:59 Yes 22:19:05 likely 22:19:26 huh? 22:20:24 so, what's a better way to do this? 22:20:56 The better way is to not want to. 22:21:07 And that really depends on your use-case. 22:21:23 matrix:+ should add matrices, not numbers 22:22:05 adeht: I think if I wanted to shadow * in some program that also needed to use compond type specifiers frequently, I'd probably use a read-macro. 22:22:09 tcr: Don't you start running into trouble with matrices and associativity / commutativity properties really quickly? 22:22:13 (for the type specifiers) 22:22:33 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:23:26 kreuter: I don't think it's a big problem. 22:25:07 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@129-97-40-183.uwaterloo.ca] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:25:28 ok 22:26:49 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a6f-227.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:53 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD38DB4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:27:21 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a16-103.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:28:47 nyef: That argument doesn't apply here. The problem with people wanting to make + (that is cl:+) work on strings is that they want the _same_ symbol to behave in multiple contexts that have fundamentally different properties. 22:28:47 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:29:25 Right, they want + to do things fundamentally unlike addition. 22:29:52 Which means that they should pick a different symbol with which to name their function. 22:29:56 well, that's irrelevant for extensibility 22:30:56 you could just specify that `+/2' operations must be commutative, for example 22:30:59 modulo the ways it doesn't, Lisp lets you proceed with whatever bad ideas strike your fancy. 22:31:16 If memory serves, Common Lisp defines less than 1000 symbols in the CL package. Surely that's not so many that you can't think of a synonym for any operation that you would otherwise name with one of those symbols... 22:31:41 (of course, that rules out floating point ;) 22:32:30 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:32:51 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:56 tns [n=mehdi@put92-6-88-165-36-162.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:05 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:34:18 has anybody seen this http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=9f0fec110811161724i447e0c4eh80741b280320905f%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=sbcl-devel message in sbcl-devel? i don't see it in gmane 22:34:31 nyef: "plus", "minus", "times", come to mind... 22:34:55 and could anybody commit this patch? it's trivial 22:34:59 kreuter: Exactly! 22:35:01 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:36:04 a bit verbose 22:36:21 adeht: pls, mns, tms? 22:36:23 :) 22:36:59 just add umlauts 22:37:09 * in a type declaration could be compared using just its name 22:37:32 that'd eliminate some of the surprises 22:37:51 or you could (gasp) use unicode characters. 22:38:34 well personally I use `point+' and such 22:39:14 adeht: And string= ? 22:39:54 but I don't see extensible `+' etc. as inherently wrong 22:40:09 tiglionabbit [n=tigliona@207.111.204.82] has joined #lisp 22:40:17 nyef: yeah 22:40:47 I don't see it as inherently wrong if the moon were hot pink and had a naked lady painted on it, but sadly.. 22:40:47 Note that even if + -were- a generic function somehow, you would not be able to define its behavior on, say, strings. 22:41:23 is there an easy way to use a mixin as a superclass for classes with standard metaclass and also for classes with funcallable-standard-class metaclass at the same time? i get protocol violation error... 22:41:54 nyef: like I said, you could have `+/1' (i.e. unary plus, using Prolog-like naming) and `+/2' (binary plus) as generic functions, and `+' calling those 22:42:21 attila_lendvai: is this the validate-superclass thing? 22:42:21 (of course, nullary `+' is a bit arbitrary as it is now :) 22:42:42 adeht: Right, but if those were generic functions in the common-lisp package, they would -still- not be specializable in terms of solely standard types. 22:42:46 kreuter: no, something stranger... lemme paste it 22:42:55 nyef: only because the standard says you can't. :) 22:43:02 foom: Exactly! 22:43:11 and why did strings even get into this argument? 22:43:17 nyef: but it'd probably work fine anyways. :) 22:43:18 if only you could define your own classes... oh wait, you can. 22:43:54 adeht: Because one of the classic examples for overloading + is string concatenation. 22:43:55 attila pasted "protcol violation with funcallable metaclass" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70737 22:44:18 nyef: I don't see how that is relevant. 22:44:30 IIRC, on the LispM STRING passed the :STRING message to the argument, so anything could act like a string for stringy operations. 22:44:52 nyef: I think of "it is an error to" as "If implementation does something interesting there, good nuff!" 22:45:51 foom: It's also to cover the case of loading two programs into the same "image" that have different ideas of what to do with the same combination of argument types. 22:46:48 Has anyone actually demonstrated how generic arithmetic should work properly, or is the call for this only for the types of lexical kludgery you can get from shadowing the arithmetic operations? 22:47:02 I know Dylan has generic arithmetic, but I don't know enough about it to know how well it works in practice. 22:47:06 chandler: kludgery! 22:48:52 -!- DrForr_ is now known as Beaker 22:49:10 -!- Beaker is now known as DrForr 22:49:29 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["leaving"] 22:49:45 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:42 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:50:53 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:14 attila_lendvai: I think the SBCL manual says something about what you're seeing. 22:51:16 hello 22:51:27 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 22:51:38 say that I want to setf an onclick of an object inside parenscript 22:51:49 how can I get the code for the onclick to be put inside a string? 22:52:08 attila_lendvai: can you try putting FUNCTION in the superclass list for ENTRY-POINT? 22:52:27 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [] 22:52:41 saikat [n=saikat@h-67-100-172-234.nycmny83.covad.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:55 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:52:59 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 22:53:17 kreuter: hm, that gets me to the usual error talking about validate-superclass. but i guess i'm not supposed to define such a method for build-in-class and funcallable-standard-class... :| 22:53:34 attila_lendvai: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Metaobject-Protocol.html see the 4th bullet point 22:53:53 hm, defining the v-s pairs helped 22:53:57 *attila_lendvai* reads 22:55:00 -!- kefka [n=user@ec2-67-202-38-234.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:55:00 er, I might be mixing up classes and metaclasses in your program. ENTRY-POINT is the metaclass? 22:55:13 shoot, I have to go catch a train. 22:55:20 good luck. 22:55:20 -!- saikat [n=saikat@h-67-100-172-234.nycmny83.covad.net] has left #lisp 22:55:21 kreuter: the only metaclass here is funcallable-s-c 22:55:31 kreuter: ok, thanks 22:58:43 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:35 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-039-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:11 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-30e60b2f9a45c776] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 23:06:29 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:03 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.109.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:07:13 a-s [n=user@92.80.109.26] has joined #lisp 23:07:36 mulligan [n=user@e178005119.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:07:42 mulligan` [n=user@e178005119.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:07:57 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178005119.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:39 netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has joined #lisp 23:11:03 -!- Mazingaro [n=tetsuja@host201-224-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:39 does/has anyone used cl-sdl ? 23:11:57 *use/used 23:12:14 trendy lispers prefer lispbuilder-sdl 23:13:03 cl-sdl uses the unfashionable uffi, and hasn't been actively developed in years (not that I consider that a legitimate condemnation.. but some people do) 23:13:37 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.109.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:14:13 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:46 hefner: lots of things still use uffi without trouble 23:16:12 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:41 okay, how does "cl-sdl is broken" work for you? 23:17:11 ok 23:17:12 :P 23:19:09 fair enough :) 23:20:28 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.250.182] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:21:25 attila_lendvai: if you have an instantiable class with metaclass funcallable-standard-class, you had better make sure that function is in the superclass list of that class 23:21:32 the easy way is to inherit from funcallable-standard-object 23:22:52 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:24:07 Krystof: yes, that's what i had to do. thanks, though! luckily the sbcl manual lists that, but i was blunt enough to google for the error which didn't lead me there... 23:24:44 drdo: I played around with cl-sdl at one point, but I had to patch it in order to get anything approaching decent performance. I wouldn't recommend it for new development. 23:26:01 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["and there's also six double oh one!"] 23:28:31 kpreid: are you arround? 23:29:46 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:30:01 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:22 a-s [n=user@92.80.109.26] has joined #lisp 23:31:54 blackpeople [n=russel@70.44.52.171] has joined #lisp 23:31:55 hi 23:32:07 are homeless people... real people? 23:32:18 Are trolls... real people? 23:32:25 i say... 23:32:27 fuck all non white people! 23:32:38 someone kick this asshole 23:33:03 lol 23:33:08 *blackpeople* thinks he's fun-e 23:33:17 antifuchs 23:33:25 yow 23:33:28 ^ 23:33:34 xD 23:33:44 ooh. 23:33:45 /k blackpeople 23:33:53 is this the place to spread the word of the Klan ? 23:33:54 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o antifuchs 23:33:57 blackpeople: It wasn't funny on #perl, isn't funny here. May I suggest #metallica? 23:34:08 -!- antifuchs has set mode +b blackpeople!*@* 23:34:11 (: 23:34:21 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has been kicked from #lisp 23:35:06 t [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 23:35:07 sorry to bother you antifuchs, it's just that you had the @ by your nick (: 23:35:13 np (: 23:37:37 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 23:37:43 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:38:03 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E61B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:39:18 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E61B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:26 kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3892B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:40:58 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 23:42:05 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@113.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:44:57 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 23:46:09 EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:14 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:46:19 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:46:21 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:34 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:47:23 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:53:04 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 23:54:13 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 23:55:34 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:55:36 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-34-186.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:42 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D75C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:55:55 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit [Client Quit] 23:56:49 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD38F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:58:46 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 23:59:46 nyef: is it fair to blame cl-sdl because sbcl's ffi is insane can call the compiler at runtime?