00:00:07 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:00:23 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-187-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 00:01:14 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit [""rebooting -> new kernel""] 00:01:52 so where's Xach? 00:02:00 fair question. 00:02:19 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:02:50 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@89.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 00:05:52 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:07:32 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:05 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 00:12:14 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:12:19 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@5.pool85-49-163.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:40 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.85.116] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:19:28 zzf256 [n=user@77.116.107.78.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:32 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:27:14 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:16 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:36 -!- zzf256 [n=user@77.116.107.78.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:27:57 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 00:28:29 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 00:29:10 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:46 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-67.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 00:32:43 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 00:33:06 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:33:51 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.73.4] has joined #lisp 00:36:37 froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 00:37:39 -!- crod [n=cmell@d288be-061.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:40:22 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 00:40:27 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:42:18 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:42:47 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:46:20 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 00:46:52 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:48:54 -!- froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:49:14 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:49:42 crod [n=cmell@cb8a5b-254.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:51:44 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 00:53:27 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 00:55:36 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-67.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 00:56:59 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 00:57:47 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:09 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:28 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:03:13 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:46 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:41 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 01:13:11 luis: I think CFFI is broken on SBCL 1.0.22; writing up a mail now. 01:15:00 -!- pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:23:40 pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:30 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 01:25:48 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:35 -!- Astro [n=astro@2001:8d8:81:5c8:219:dbff:fe64:81a7] has quit ["^Q"] 01:29:52 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:31:29 prxq_ [n=mommer@X88c8.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:31:47 disumu [n=disumu@p57A25FC8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:00 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:22 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:33:29 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:58 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:37:06 -!- froog___ is now known as froog 01:40:27 -!- prxq [n=mommer@X8e85.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:42:03 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:38 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:46:41 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:49:29 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 01:52:33 -!- holymoly [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:01:11 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B3D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:10:18 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:11:13 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209.6.216.149] has quit [] 02:12:02 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:15:47 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:16:18 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 02:18:25 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:56 -!- a-stray-cat1 [n=hoc@pc2.cs.ucdavis.edu] has left #lisp 02:32:10 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 02:35:42 -!- keram [n=oof@unaffiliated/keram] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:17 keram [n=oof@cpe-76-87-179-96.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:37:25 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a5b-254.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:50:30 crod [n=cmell@cb8a18-019.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:52:09 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [] 02:55:02 nyef [n=nyef@pool-173-48-82-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:12 Good evening all. 02:59:54 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:02 mareen [n=schwepps@adsl-67-112-123-161.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:03 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:03:21 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-d18701ad726529ec] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:05:17 if I write a function like (defun foo (x y) (+ x y)), how do I deal with the situation when foo is called with nonnumerical arguments? do I call typep on all arguments? 03:05:56 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:05:56 check-type, assert 03:06:22 you can also assume you're using a sane implementation and let it detect errors. 03:07:04 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl9-100-102.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:07:16 Is there a function which will do the equivalent of the function position over a list of lists? For example I need something like (position '(T F) '((T T) (T F) (F T) (F F))) ==> 1 03:07:36 stassats, so I should do that with *all* such functions? 03:07:47 keithr: (position '(T F) '((T T) (T F) (F T) (F F)) :test #'equalp) 03:08:27 -!- pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:08:48 pkhuong, is that considered acceptable for production code? 03:09:00 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:09:20 mareen: in all functions where you want to check-type 03:09:29 "check type" 03:09:54 stassats: Thank you! 03:10:30 i dunno, manually checking types at runtime seems rather inefficient to me 03:11:18 mareen: what do you think happens when you don't do it yourself? 03:11:35 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-39-9.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:02 pkhuong: Well, what would happen under a (safety 0) regime? 03:12:15 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:12:26 nyef (: 03:12:33 who uses (safety 0) at production code? 03:12:53 stassats: I do, sometimes. >:-) 03:13:18 stassats: same here. In SBCL, for example. 03:13:38 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A25FC8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:15:28 Hum, I'm having trouble implementing this. I have a permutation represented as a list of cycles. Consider ((1 3 2) (4 5)). This means 1->3->2->1; 4->5->4, where -> reads "goes to". So, we result with (3 1 2 5 4), because the 1st->3, 3nd-> 2, 2nd->1, 4th->5, 5th->4 03:16:31 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-29-4.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:56 Quadrescence: The reason you're having trouble implementing it is probably related to your trouble explaining it. 03:17:07 nyef: I understand it perfectly. 03:17:40 I've heard that one before. 03:17:47 I've -said- that one before. 03:17:55 "You don't really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother." 03:17:56 nyef: I've implemented it in C++ and Fortran, but without using lists. 03:25:43 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:29:49 drewc, me too! :D .. lol 03:31:18 so, is it possible to get lisp to crash if I, say optimize safety 0 and passing the function the wrong type? 03:31:37 crash meaning a segfault or some similar ungraceful death 03:31:41 Absolutely. 03:32:08 interesting... 03:32:10 at least sbcl 03:32:26 stassats: that's also the spirit of the spec. 03:32:37 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:32:38 really? i've been trying to crash sbcl and it but can't 03:33:01 s/it// 03:35:04 Oh, crashing SBCL is trivial, really... 03:35:12 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:35:12 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 03:35:37 You just have to know its weak points. 03:36:08 you're making me nervous, this simulation has been running for 6 and a half hours now, and is nearing completion :p 03:36:55 qebab, (progn (run-simulation) nil) .. 6 hours passes .. NIL returns from the progn 03:37:18 (i have done this) 03:37:22 lnostdal: ouch 03:37:23 qebab: your program is much more likely to abort ``gracefully'' (not a segfault) while still losing progress (or just not compute the right thing) than to die badly. 03:37:23 haha 03:38:10 lnostdal: I'm generating so much data that I put it on disk now and then though, so I have something like 85% of my output already :p 03:38:20 qebab, ok :) 03:38:47 qebab: disk can crash too 03:39:01 stassats: don't say things like this now ): 03:39:04 Heh. I remember when I had a simulator that ran for six and a half hours or thereabouts before crashing... 03:39:21 man, you people are doing this on purpose 03:39:21 (not due to sbcl, though) 03:39:30 *lnostdal* remembers his old IBM disks .. *tic ..scritch .. scritch ... tic -- scritch -- scritch* 03:39:38 lnostdal: haha 03:39:41 a-stray-cat1 [n=hoc@pc9.cs.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 03:39:51 funny thing this, my disk crashed only a few weeks ago 03:39:56 hullo again, how can you check if a variable has a value? 03:40:00 ... and that was when I knew it was going to crash, and wanted to find out why and fix it. Turned out to need a -lot- of optimization. 03:40:03 boundp 03:40:31 thankie 03:40:32 stassats: Doesn't work on lexical variables. :-P 03:40:44 (Of course, lexical variables always have values.) 03:40:52 this one was optimized pretty heavily, it was about 300 times slower before... 03:41:33 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [] 03:42:03 I only get that sort of gain by changing algorithms though 03:42:10 Yeah, with help from #lisp, I managed to optimize mine to do that six-plus hour run in seconds. 03:42:19 nice :o 03:42:36 (First serious lisp program, so of course I was a little naive about the performance model.) 03:43:10 obviously :P 03:44:14 This has always bothered me... what could you do that would actually take advantage of dynamic variables? 03:44:41 global variables 03:44:58 stassats: yeah, but you could just as well put your entire app in a (let .. ) 03:45:03 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:45:27 I mean, how could you take advantage of the dynamic behavior? I suspect it probably has something to do with limiting side-effects on state, but I'm not sure. 03:45:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:46:34 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:46:56 sykopomp: with that let you can't do let and modify global state 03:47:08 sykopomp: What can you do with, say, *standard-output* ? 03:47:10 like (let ((*print-base* 16)) (print 42)) 03:47:17 Or that, yes. 03:47:39 Binding dynamic variables is a pretty common way to customize Emacs behavior, isn't it? 03:47:52 though this example doesn't show globality 03:47:59 cbrannon: emacs only has dynamically scoped variables. 03:48:20 Right. 03:48:48 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 03:49:05 or it shows actually 03:49:15 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@60-56-118-48.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:52:10 <_deepfire> lnostdal, I remember fixing a deathstar drive, unbelievably, with soldering, into workingness 03:54:12 <_deepfire> lnostdal, the failure mode was really amusing -- the connection between the drive's PCB and the drive innards was error-prone: pins thrust into solder drops 03:54:47 yes, i recall seeing that 03:55:51 <_deepfire> so just mechanical stress of attach/reattach + thermal cycles of on/off are degrading 03:56:01 i think i used tape .. or just _held_ the thing together while someone else saved what could be saved from the thing .... 03:56:11 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:56:50 <_deepfire> what I did was to just refresh the solder drops and the thing went fine, for a year or so, until I replaced it with a larger drive 03:58:18 Ever seen someone take a 10-meg MFM drive from an old PC and replace the top cover with a sheet of plexiglass? 03:58:29 <_deepfire> :-) 03:58:52 (We ended up using that drive for a couple years afterwards, too. Clear top and everything.)' 04:01:04 hello 04:02:01 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@60-56-118-48.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:02:32 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@60-56-118-48.eonet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:03:35 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:04:00 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 04:04:47 does anyone know where there is a really good explanation of alpha beta pruning? 04:04:57 where it walks you through the steps one by one 04:08:15 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 04:09:10 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:12:38 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@60-56-118-48.eonet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:12:56 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 04:17:19 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:53 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-182-198.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:21 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 04:21:16 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 04:25:01 -!- a-stray-cat1 [n=hoc@pc9.cs.ucdavis.edu] has left #lisp 04:31:38 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:33:54 -!- Savant [n=savant@unaffiliated/Savant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:35:55 -!- kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:38:39 i dont get how the alpha and beta values are set and used as the tree is traversed 04:38:45 keram: i'd try the greater internet, and nopt #lisp. 04:39:37 s/nopt/not 04:39:51 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:43:37 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:46:56 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:48:46 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 04:48:49 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 04:55:32 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:14 -!- mareen [n=schwepps@adsl-67-112-123-161.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 04:57:57 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:58:37 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@60-56-118-48.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:59:32 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:23 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 05:02:01 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:45 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:11:31 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has left #lisp 05:13:37 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:14:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:12 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has left #lisp 05:16:03 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:50 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0478.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:18:59 dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:03 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1DF5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:33 segv [n=mb@p4FC1D4D3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:38 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:20:48 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:51 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:33 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@60-56-118-48.eonet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:23:18 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:24:42 -!- jolby [n=joel@c-24-17-183-30.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:29:43 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:31:25 joyfulgirl [n=joyfulgi@unaffiliated/joyfulgirl] has joined #lisp 05:31:33 Heya 05:32:21 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:32:41 o/ 05:33:47 Twey [n=Twey@unaffiliated/twey] has joined #lisp 05:34:47 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:49 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:38:03 So I'm working on installing mcclim on clisp (Arch Linux, up-to-date system). I'm using mcclim from CVS 'cause I'm crazy like that, but I ran into the same problem (it's coming, I swear) with the release tarball. 05:39:06 what problem? 05:39:11 Following the manual installation instructions (not recommended, I know, but I haven't gotten around to testing out clbuild), I get to the point at which mcclim is built and it's time to test an application, and for whatever reason the tests I run (as specified on the GettingStarted wiki page and in the INSTALL file) simply hang--no errors, but no windows generated either. 05:40:04 I can C-c to escape the hang, but barring that "solution" it seems to hang indefinitely. 05:40:13 is there any specific reason for using clisp? 05:40:20 i use mcclim with sbcl 05:41:05 Well, I use just clisp in general. 05:43:19 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:44:13 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:26 joyfulgirl: i can only suggest to write your problem to the mcclim-devel@common-lisp.net with backtrace, etc. 05:46:12 stassats: Fair enough, thanks. Out of curiosity, any ideas on how to force a backtrace? Like I said, it doesn't spit out any output (errors or otherwise). 05:46:20 *stassats* remembers being confused running mcclim with DISPLAY pointing to the different computer 05:46:54 joyfulgirl: :BT 05:47:15 brilliant. 05:47:17 Hahaha, stassats 05:48:47 -!- dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:49:39 dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:24 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:52:41 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:53:47 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@207-237-217-78.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:54:24 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-13.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 05:54:43 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:59:16 -!- dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:00:35 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:00:44 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:42 holycow [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:46 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:10:10 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:35 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:24:22 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:24:50 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:03 pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:33:44 stassats: Just for reference, it works fine in sbcl. Thank you, and have a nice evening! 06:33:54 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:34:01 -!- joyfulgirl [n=joyfulgi@unaffiliated/joyfulgirl] has left #lisp 06:34:19 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:26 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-212.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:47:49 Savant [n=savant@unaffiliated/Savant] has joined #lisp 06:47:52 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:47:55 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:48:31 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:12 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:49:34 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:33 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-182-198.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:54:54 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 07:03:05 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:03:28 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:23 jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-001.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:12:14 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a18-019.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:15:02 i'm trying to figure out a way to create diffs between lists .. diffs that represent what one would need to do to go from old-list to new-list wrt. operations (move, append, prepend, insert, remove) .. but maybe something already exists out there? 07:16:20 i'm doing UI type stuff .. say i'm removing something from a list, then i insert it back at another place .. the "diff" in this case should yield a move instead of a remove and and insert 07:16:33 (list <-> "ui container") 07:17:34 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:17:56 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:07 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:32 and an insert* 07:20:11 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:20:39 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 07:22:44 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:22:59 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:51 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-134-71.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:26 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-134-71.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:27:27 Twey_ [n=Twey@unaffiliated/twey] has joined #lisp 07:31:59 -!- Twey [n=Twey@unaffiliated/twey] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:32:01 -!- Twey_ is now known as Twey 07:32:24 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:32:47 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:53 -!- holycow [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:41:21 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["leaving"] 07:46:18 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:46:42 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:14 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:56:42 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:17 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:05:48 kami- [n=user@p4FD3ABA1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:05:56 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:06:23 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:33 good morning 08:06:50 morning. 08:07:59 bon jour 08:11:39 pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:14:59 lnostdal: http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/log/programming/lisp/diff-sexp 08:15:59 ejs [n=eugen@134-165-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:20 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:21:34 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:00 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:44 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:23:07 cool .. thanks, drewc 08:23:28 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 08:23:28 -!- Savant [n=savant@unaffiliated/Savant] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:29:11 pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:20 -!- pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 08:32:33 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:33:11 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 08:37:57 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:39:05 drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:30 milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.166] has joined #lisp 08:39:53 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:42:32 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.126] has joined #lisp 08:42:41 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 08:47:12 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:47:20 So, what now? 08:47:57 savant [n=savant@unaffiliated/Savant] has joined #lisp 08:50:03 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.246.57] has joined #lisp 08:50:04 -!- savant is now known as Savant 08:52:02 now you die, mr bond 08:52:17 Hm. Why not. As good an option as any. 08:59:14 James Bond is a jew. 08:59:17 Whoops. 08:59:36 Savant: please go away and don't return. 08:59:40 crod [n=cmell@cad439-001.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:00:11 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-001.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:00:21 Cool. 09:01:57 flexi-streams gives out a boatload of warnings when compiling. 09:02:33 also, installing drakma pulls down half of cliki.net 09:02:52 tic: so? 09:04:40 H4ns, just found it a bit peculiar how a library for pulling things from the net would need e.g. Alexandria. But now I see I had the wrong idea on what Alexandria is. 09:05:12 Alexandria? 09:05:15 Well, all is good. Now I suddenly have a lot of new systems in place to toy with. 09:05:24 Savant, cliki.net/alexandria 09:05:24 H4ns: happen to be subscribed to cl-pdf-devel? 09:05:28 Ah. 09:05:33 tcr: no, negative on that 09:05:52 tcr: anything interesting going on? 09:05:55 I need someone who sends a mail to it so its gmane group will be created. 09:07:09 tcr: that someone cannot be you? 09:07:43 Sure but gotta subscribe to it just for that. Thought I could avoid it. 09:09:12 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DE9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:57 tic: In flexi-streams, IIRC, warnings are generally caused by undefined generics and ad-hoc optimization hacks. 09:10:15 Nothing brutal. 09:12:01 H4ns: Suggestions regarding c-l.net should be sent to rt@cl.net, right? 09:12:11 tcr: right 09:12:38 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:53 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:16:08 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 09:16:32 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:33 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:13 H4ns: Perhaps I'm dense, but is that address referenced at the website? 09:20:22 G'day 09:20:45 tcr: i'm not sure - the c-l.net web site is not really maintained, as drewc "has" a new design "ready". 09:20:52 drewc: don't you? :) 09:23:01 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-187-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:50 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 09:23:56 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 09:23:58 -!- Savant [n=savant@unaffiliated/Savant] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:30:41 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:35:07 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.15.106] has joined #lisp 09:39:02 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 09:39:10 Is ppcre:scan-to-string supposed to match >1 matches of a group? I only get the first match. I match "foo=([a-z]+)\"" against "foo=bar\"foo=baz\"", but I only get "bar" as match 09:40:23 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-212.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:40:30 tic: scan(|-to-strings) matches once. see do-matches 09:41:21 H4ns: Does Hunchentoot any plans to introduce a variable for configuration of worker thread counts, connection limitations, etc.? 09:42:23 benny [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:42:53 i'm looking for a persistent storage for CLOS objects, any hints? 09:43:01 cl-store 09:43:07 ecraven: rucksack 09:43:11 vy: yes, we have the plan to invest into making the threading behaviour more controllable, although it may be that we only supply an API instead. 09:43:15 ecraven: bknr datastore 09:44:43 vy: (instead of implementing a thread pool ourselves) 09:44:46 i dont see the reason for hunchentoot to be multithreaded 09:45:09 but thats just me 09:45:21 H4ns: +1 09:45:22 vy: we do have some funding to make a release in the next week, but we will not concentrate on threading behavior. 09:45:34 xristos: i concur. 09:46:35 H4ns, thanks, that was what I was looking for. Doesn't seem to do grouping though. I'll continue looking. 09:47:12 irm [n=irm@unaffiliated/irm] has joined #lisp 09:47:57 dalton [n=id@200-100-8-241.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 09:49:15 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 09:52:41 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp91-122-98-146.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 09:52:42 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [] 09:53:02 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CE06.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:53:04 hm.. when starting slime (64 bit arch linux) with sbcl, i get an error: "couldn't load .slime/fasl/2008-11-15/sbcl-1.0.22-linux-x86-64/swank-sbcl.fasl". i do have the directory, but only a file swank-backend.fasl. how do i get swank-sbcl.fasl? 09:55:22 ecraven: remove .slime/, and try it again 09:55:36 -!- irm [n=irm@unaffiliated/irm] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:55:37 same error 09:56:08 irm [n=irm@unaffiliated/irm] has joined #lisp 09:56:18 might be a nested error, symbol DEBUG-SOURCE-FROM not found in the SB-DI package 09:56:39 ecraven: Indeed. That means that your sbcl version is too recent for your slime version. 09:56:47 ecraven: Please checkout Slime from CVS. 09:57:13 tcr: hehe, thanks 09:58:16 great, works! 09:58:34 That was quick. :) 09:58:38 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad439-001.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:58:46 crod [n=cmell@cb8ac8-032.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:01:35 lnostdal: Actually (I'm sure you know better than me but anyway...), it's a tough problem to generate diffs. I can see your specific domain appears to be trivial, but diff'ing is a complicated arena. (See v-delta diff. algorithm.) 10:02:26 *stassats`* playing with mcclim: http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1397/mcclimax4.png 10:02:27 quick machine ;) 10:02:29 vy, i have no idea actually .. i haven't thought about this at all before now 10:02:36 we got new machines at work, dual quadcore xean 10:02:40 xeon 10:03:20 vy, i'm working on separating "model" and "view" in SW .. so i was thinking it would be interesting to make use of all the nifty lisp list manipulation code and apis out there 10:03:22 ecraven: mac pros, or some other build? 10:03:25 btw, anybody has idea how to name mcclim chess-ui? 10:03:48 no, custom build, much cheaper than macs, but probably more hardware 10:03:58 i'm running gnu/linux, my colleagues vista 10:04:24 lnostdal: Once I needed a diff tool for ALIW and started rolling my own tool from scratch. After an hour of thinking without even being able to write a single line of code, I concluded that it needs a smarter mind than mine. That's how I met with v-delta and cl-diff. 10:04:50 ecraven: actually, I did some test builds, and mac pros are about the same than custom newegg builds, as long as you buy all the ram from newegg. 10:05:02 s/than/as/ 10:06:10 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-212.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 10:09:19 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:21 -!- irm [n=irm@unaffiliated/irm] has quit ["leaving"] 10:12:52 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.15.106] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:14:48 how can i customize the way CLOS objects are printed in sbcl? 10:15:14 clhs print-object 10:15:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm 10:15:46 lnostdal: I just replied to your post on cll 10:16:33 thanks 10:16:55 stassats`: nice 10:17:50 stassats` i'm working on web-based chess with cl 10:18:07 michaelw, drewc already beat you to it (he posted a link to your site already) :) 10:19:04 xristos: oh? What are you using for it? 10:20:01 hunchentoot for the moment 10:20:07 and some custom ajax stuff 10:20:19 but i dont think hunchentoot will hold much load 10:20:25 that chess can only move so far 10:20:38 so i'm kind of thinking of replacing it with something i can write from scratch 10:20:49 no threads, just nbio everywhere 10:21:26 xristos: isn't there something like that in iolib? also, there is symbolic-web, which is supposed to use nbio, too. 10:21:39 i have my own nbio lib 10:21:43 instead of iolib 10:21:48 xristos: (and we'd certainly like to make hunchentoot use nbio) 10:21:48 and i havent looked at symbolic web yet 10:21:53 although i have to 10:21:57 xristos: ah - ok. 10:22:00 since they have some cool stuff 10:23:00 it is kind of sad to see that none of the non-trivial common lisp libraries seem to attract more than a very small number of developers. 10:23:59 examples ? 10:24:06 xristos: hunchentoot :) 10:24:35 i think in the time its going to take me to familiarise myself with htoot 10:24:40 i'll have what i want written 10:24:51 and be 100% sure of it working as i want 10:25:01 xristos: yes. the familiar nih syndrome. 10:25:52 in the long run it's pretty much a disaster 10:26:20 i'll take a look though 10:26:30 it seems to have the lisp-specific things nicely astracted 10:26:39 if everything i need is in port-sbcl maybe i could do something 10:27:47 if you look at it at all, please look at the current development version that we're going to release soon (we have some funding now) 10:27:57 svn://bknr.net/svn/thirdparty/hunchentoot/ 10:28:06 H4ns: hey, that's good news! 10:28:08 ok 10:29:04 now is also a good time to come up with suggestions what needs to be done. we will certainly not be able to implement everything that one would desire, but it will help to know what people are really looking for. 10:29:26 well most important thing for me is nbio instead of threads 10:29:37 i develop on osx and deploy on bsd 10:29:49 and sbcl threads are iffy on osx 10:30:12 i can consistently crash sbcl 10:30:17 xristos: i understand. i think we need to factor out the api for nbio interfacing similar to what we're going to do with threading. 10:30:32 xristos: WFM at least for development 10:30:47 H4ns: REST dispatchers would be nice 10:31:14 michaelw: true, but that could also be something external to hunchentoot. i would like to have that, too. 10:32:25 michaelw: i don't really like hunchentoots handler architecture anyway. i would like to see hunchentoot be just the http server substrate, and leave it up to the framework how requests are actually dispatched and processed. 10:32:31 H4ns: I have a sorry excuse of a RESTful comment system on top of hunchentoot 10:32:43 H4ns: yes, absolutely 10:34:31 *michaelw* wonders which documentation version to put online---HEAD or released... 10:34:59 ok, so if anyone is interested in a minimal json encoder/decoder, please look at http://common-lisp.net/project/yason/ - comments appreciated. 10:36:35 clim change-space-requirements 10:36:35 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/29-3.html#_1662 10:39:47 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:40:14 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 10:43:56 -!- dalton [n=id@200-100-8-241.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [] 10:48:37 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:50:11 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:50:28 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 10:52:08 H4ns: The umlaut is broken in the License section. 10:52:31 tcr: gah! thanks. 10:52:32 perhaps because the content type says latin1, and only the meta-tag says utf-8 10:52:41 (I forget which one takes precedence) 10:52:52 yes. i need a meta http-equiv thing. 10:52:58 hooray for encoding! 10:53:08 $ cat .htaccess 10:53:08 AddDefaultCharset UTF-8 10:53:12 ..works for me on cl.net 10:53:19 lnostdal: even better, thanks! 10:53:45 :test #'equal 10:54:00 but looks good 10:54:02 encoding issue fixed, thanks to lnostdal 10:55:43 Good morning. 10:55:47 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 10:55:58 H4ns: otherwise looks great, congratulations. I'll skim over the document later, and see if I can provide comments from glancing at it. 10:56:40 it's amazing how much work it is to release software :) 10:58:46 I concur. 10:59:05 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:59:06 But it makes you proud to point at it! :) 10:59:09 *michaelw* agrees with H4ns 11:00:11 hmm, wasn't there also cl-json? 11:00:28 kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 11:00:57 There is; H4ns should point at it, and say why he chose to come up with his own library. 11:01:09 will do, good suggestion. 11:01:51 yeah, I added a section to the cl-dot manual mentioning the other dot frontends, too 11:02:11 hmm, I should probably update it with my cll answer 11:04:26 stassats`: is your chess board intentionally backwards? 11:14:52 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084038.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 11:23:45 http://common-lisp.net/project/yason/index.html#intro contains a sentence about my motivation to not use cl-json 11:24:37 is there a library or other method to have a lisp datastructure mapped on-disk? eg. a very large list that uses as specific amount of memory and the "rest" is on-disk, but the r/w access id totaly transparent? 11:25:43 turbo24prg: You mean like using disk as heap space? 11:25:44 turbo24prg: Is there any reason you don't want to use your OS virtual memory? 11:26:38 mulligan [n=user@e178032110.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:27:56 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A6FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:27:59 eg. if the object is a tree, i'd like to say key => file, for some parts 11:28:04 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:28:12 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:28:35 just an idea 11:28:36 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has joined #lisp 11:28:46 Any news on when the next lisp meeting in boston will be? 11:30:08 is the virtual memory approach limited when using sbcl or can i operate on gigabytes of data? 11:30:31 turbo24prg, each element could just be a weak pointer .. let the GC sort things that aren't used anymore out 11:30:50 turbo24prg: It seems to me as it is limited by your OS. Like on 32bit linux there's an ugly 4gb heap limit. 11:30:53 (i haven't thought about this ... maybe it's a dumb idea) 11:31:06 turbo24prg: If you are on a 64-bit machine, I don't see why there would be any limitations. 11:33:14 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 11:34:05 -!- drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has quit ["\(^^) LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL! "\(^^)""] 11:34:36 michaelw: how ugly is your restful dispatcher? would you consider releasing it? 11:36:38 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.246.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:42:52 is cl-store still useable or already outdated (or is there even a successor)? 11:43:24 josemanuel [n=josemanu@35.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:44:19 turbo24prg: depends on your needs. I was using cl-store until recently, and it worked quite well. 11:44:43 turbo24prg: but I ended up needing more serious storage/object persistence capabilities, so I started using an actial db-like datastore. 11:44:49 actual* 11:47:04 which one? is rucksack stable? 11:47:19 turbo24prg: I'm using bknr's datastore 11:47:28 turbo24prg cl-store is fine and very easily adapted 11:47:39 if you are looking for something minimal its very nice 11:47:57 turbo24prg: if you want something with a database backend, I'd point you to both rucksack and elephant 11:48:51 thanks! 11:48:55 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:49:22 Dalton [n=id@200-100-8-241.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 11:49:40 also i wouldnt count on os virtual memory implementation for what you want 11:50:38 -!- ejs [n=eugen@134-165-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:51:07 //topic Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . common-lisp.net back in service, please email problems to admin@common-lisp.net. New: yason-0.1, trivial-features 0.4, SBCL 1.0.22, CFFI 0.10.3, series 2.2.10, trivial-garbage 0.17, usocket 0.4.0 11:51:16 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . common-lisp.net back in service, please email problems to admin@common-lisp.net. New: yason-0.1, trivial-features 0.4, SBCL 1.0.22, CFFI 0.10.3, series 2.2.10, trivial-garbage 0.17, usocket 0.4.0 11:51:19 \o/ 11:51:34 H4ns: where's the exciting part? 11:51:37 oh. yason 11:51:47 H4ns: pft :P 11:51:47 H4ns donner 11:51:53 shameless self-advertising 11:51:57 pmatos [n=pmatos@78.149.252.77] has joined #lisp 11:52:09 phil [n=Phil@92-235-187-136.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:53:29 phil another day in paradise 11:54:25 How's it going? 11:54:42 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 11:55:11 besiria` [n=user@ppp083212085071.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 11:57:31 -!- phil [n=Phil@92-235-187-136.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:59:21 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084038.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:00:09 basilisk_ [n=anuj@210.212.55.3] has joined #lisp 12:01:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:02:13 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:02:52 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl9-100-102.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:08:10 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DE9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:12:20 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:12:22 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:14:45 irm [n=irm@unaffiliated/irm] has joined #lisp 12:17:55 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:18:55 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:20:27 FZ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 12:21:46 clhs loop 12:21:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 12:21:53 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.225.171] has joined #lisp 12:25:06 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.73.4] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:32 user___ [n=user@p549250C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:31 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.73.4] has joined #lisp 12:30:25 I don't have an idea about their performance, but both bpm and cl-match looks promising. Maybe I should integrate them into demacs. 12:34:01 user pasted "is this a bug in package "cl-yacc" or in my slime-sbcl-emacs setup?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70423 12:36:03 user___: looks like some package error 12:36:09 user___: is lambda* something in your code? 12:36:41 the problem is likely that DEFINE-PARSER wasn't a macro when that code was loaded 12:36:54 most likely because it was loaded in the wrong package 12:38:54 user annotated #70423 with "my own asd file" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70423#1 12:40:04 kpreid: not sure, sorry, if i got your question right, but i would think that i dont use lambda* at all 12:41:08 user___: just make sure your program has the right defpackage/in-package/:use 12:42:16 Cl0ck3r [n=DaBomb@212-127-239-219.cable.quicknet.nl] has joined #lisp 12:42:30 -!- Cl0ck3r [n=DaBomb@212-127-239-219.cable.quicknet.nl] has left #lisp 12:42:37 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:25 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:44:45 hrr4 [n=hrr4@81.90.21.226] has joined #lisp 12:49:27 vy: what is demacs? 12:51:24 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.225.171] has quit ["If an experiment works, you must be using the wrong equipment"] 12:52:46 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:53:19 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:53:23 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 12:53:41 dwave [n=ask@062249178049.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 12:53:46 nevermind, found it 12:54:21 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:57:05 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:07 michaelw: Do you have experience with bpm[2], cl-match and/or cl-unification? 12:57:29 no, when i need a matcher I usually use fare-matcher 13:01:48 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:04:05 kpreid: it seems to be an issue with changes in cxml-stp or underlying libraries. trying to asdf-load it from the top-repl alone also produces the same error message 13:05:44 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["Rebels Unite!"] 13:05:47 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:06:16 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl9-100-102.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:06:17 kpreid: recently introduced bug in cl-yacc. Rollback the latest change using "darcs unpull". 13:06:48 lichtblau: er, I'm not the one suffering 13:07:32 oh, sorry 13:07:45 has the maintainer been informed of this, though? 13:07:57 yeah, a patch is on the way 13:08:40 lichtblau: can i also unpull with clbuild? 13:09:20 hmm, how would be more precise 13:09:27 cd clbuild/source/cl-yacc && darcs unpull # type y then d 13:09:37 right, tvm 13:10:36 there's also a cl-yacc patch on plexippus-xpath-devel, you could try that instead. 13:10:39 I'd paste the link if my firefox didn't segfault when trying to view pipermail on cl-net. (ouch) 13:12:55 -!- Dalton [n=id@200-100-8-241.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 13:13:11 Dalton [n=id@200-100-8-241.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:17:20 -!- irm [n=irm@unaffiliated/irm] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:20:22 irm [n=irm@208.49.241.227] has joined #lisp 13:21:33 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp145.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:22:20 -!- irm [n=irm@208.49.241.227] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:26:04 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:26:27 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.101.131] has joined #lisp 13:31:21 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:32:10 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:35:55 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:47:08 -!- user___ [n=user@p549250C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:50:10 dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:04 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@125.70.196.215] has joined #lisp 13:55:07 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [] 13:55:27 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:57:08 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@125.70.196.215] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:03:06 danlei [n=user@pD9E2D61C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:33 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 14:07:56 appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:08:35 -!- besiria` [n=user@ppp083212085071.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:10 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:13:23 beso [n=gio123@91.151.140.4] has joined #lisp 14:13:36 does somebody has electronic version of the book: Salomaa: theory of automata 14:14:49 So with the McCLIM here I have a pane with a vertical scrollbar - no I am not going to ask how to get it working again ;) - and I print lotsa stuff in the pane and it leaves me scrolled to the bottom of it. Now, how do I tell it to not do the scrolling to the bottom but instead stay at the top? 14:14:50 beso: you mean "can someone please send me a pirated copy of the book: Salomaa: theory of automata" 14:14:57 (or scroll back up, either way) 14:15:01 hrr4_ [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has joined #lisp 14:16:29 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@81.90.21.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:19:11 H4ns: yes 14:19:21 beso: => #warez 14:19:38 no one is there 14:20:00 I need the book :( 14:20:07 no library has it here 14:20:09 :( 14:20:12 in my country 14:20:28 amazon.com delivers worldwide. 14:21:36 beso: this is not a warez channel 14:22:20 And that said, there are enough web pages about theory of automata, if you don't have the means to buy that book. 14:24:43 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.126] has quit ["bbl"] 14:25:11 clim end-of-page-action 14:25:11 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for end-of-page-action. 14:26:04 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.127.54] has joined #lisp 14:28:05 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 14:28:05 schme_: :end-of-page-action :allow when you create your pane (or with-end-of-page-action around the output) 14:29:08 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.249.119] has joined #lisp 14:29:11 hefner: I'll take a look at that, thanks. 14:30:34 and I don't understand all these "The stream argument is not evaluated, and must be a symbol that is bound to a stream" remarks in the spec.Is it just to avoid having to write the macros properly, some prudishness in special casing T on an evaluated argument, or something else? 14:31:16 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:32:30 G'morning all. 14:32:46 pjb: are u sure it deilvers everywherE? 14:33:02 does somebody has electronic version of the book: Salomaa: theory of automata 14:33:14 Perhaps not in Irak or Afganistan, or if you're lost in the North pole. 14:33:32 in Georgia 14:33:33 also 14:33:40 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 14:33:41 But let's assume that if you are located in these places, you have more pressing problems than to read a book. 14:33:55 :) 14:34:01 sure I have mor eproblems 14:34:11 but education is most important for me 14:34:12 :) 14:34:33 There's enough web pages about theory of automata. The book may wait. 14:35:00 Am I to understand this correctly that you are studying at some local university, and they require you to use a book that is not shipped to your region, and not for sale in any local store? 14:35:09 eh. 14:35:15 I'll stay out of this :) 14:35:33 Sélection par débrouillardise. :-) 14:35:38 I need a book, because in the paper author refers something is done by salomaa in the book, and i need to know how it is done 14:36:13 hefner: That worked excellent with the :end-of-page-action 14:36:50 schme_: university does not requre me anything 14:37:04 I just need the book to see something there 14:37:19 beso: Ok. A lesser form of need then :) 14:37:29 -!- hrr4_ [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:37:30 With "I will die without it" being at the top. 14:39:01 schme_:lesser? why? I am writing a paper and need to see something in that book 14:39:38 Ok. I guess you need to buy it. 14:40:00 i can borrow some money 14:40:02 and buy 14:40:08 but how can be shift here 14:40:31 beso: go to amazon.com, order, wait. 14:41:08 they dont send it to georgia 14:41:26 or either they dont have this book 14:41:34 Make them send it to Turkia and go fetch it there. 14:41:42 hehe 14:41:46 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has left #lisp 14:41:47 anyway 14:41:58 hard to go there, here is war time to time 14:41:59 -!- H4ns [n=hans@70.91.193.41] has left #lisp 14:42:14 Maybe you just have to go without the book. 14:42:28 beso: you could try bribing the security forces with vodka 14:42:43 hope russians will not reach my house 14:42:45 and maybe even go without writing the paper. 14:42:47 Or enlist to help bringing war to an end. 14:43:23 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 14:43:29 if I go somewhere I will go to Stokholm :) 14:43:32 not elsewere 14:43:57 Why there? 14:44:13 cool country 14:44:26 nice girls are there easy girls 14:44:28 ;) 14:45:32 tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@unaffiliated/tc-rucho] has joined #lisp 14:45:59 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:47:00 hello, is there a way to make format just ignore nil arguments? I mean this: (format nil "~a" nil) => "" instead of "NIL" 14:47:41 tc-rucho: Maybe use some conditionals. 14:47:58 yeah, I'll do that if I find nothing like what I'm looking for 14:48:37 (format nil "~:[~;~:*~A~]" nil) --> "" 14:48:40 tc-rucho: ~[~A~] ? 14:48:47 *tc-rucho* checks 14:48:49 tc-rucho: ~@[~A~] ? in fact 14:49:06 clhs 22.3.7.2 14:49:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgb.htm 14:49:23 nice. I'll have to remember ~@. 14:49:59 in fact @ and : modifiers effects depend on which format command you use... 14:50:06 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-84-242.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:50:32 Yes, I meant ~@[ 14:50:47 lemoinem: thanks, I wouldn't have guessed that one. I have never seen ~@ before 14:51:13 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.249.119] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:52:04 you're welcome, format is almost turing complete :-P happily the clhs is really well written 14:53:51 turing completeness doesn't imply vast number of commands 14:54:11 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 14:55:47 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:55:56 sure (brainfuck only have 8 instruction and is turing equivalent/complete) 15:02:07 Well yum. It seems my previous clbuild updating of mcclim stopped it from loading properly. 15:03:19 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:04:01 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:53 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp145.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 15:04:56 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:03 So I (require 'mcclim) and I get Class not yet defined: CLIM:STREAM-OUTPUT-HISTORY-MIXIN 15:07:17 followed by a lot of classes not yet defined 15:08:50 So how do I pull a working version of mcclim? 15:09:22 current cvs HEAD works for me (on sbcl) 15:09:46 hmm.. I dunno what I have. I just did ./clbuild update mcclim 15:09:59 Just 2 fatal errors and 33 other errors. 15:10:03 or something along those lines 15:10:07 should be cvs HEAD too 15:11:36 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:54 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 15:13:13 *hefner* ponders the probability that he broke mcclim in his last batch of commits in some way which sbcl overlooks 15:13:57 unless schme_ is using sbcl - in that event, it must be a problem on his end. :) 15:14:15 schme_: try clearing out the fasls in your clbuild mcclim directory, perhaps. 15:15:36 Right. 15:15:44 schme_: also, if you're trying the latest mcclim, you might want to experiment with disabling random extra newlines and change-space-requirements calls in your coded. I set it up so it should happen automatically now, but I didn't really test it. ;) 15:15:54 Well I am using sbcl. I got a game over from running out of heap, then Irestarted, and bam. 15:16:10 oh cools. 15:16:29 I'll try removing fasls as soon as my update --installed is done. 15:16:33 So in three hours. 15:16:35 heh 15:16:41 Bless this slow internet connection. 15:16:59 But I'm all for the "hefner's last commit broke mcclim something insane" ;) 15:19:30 -!- dwave [n=ask@062249178049.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:33 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:20:22 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 15:23:01 nik11 [i=c1fdf9c5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-376760d5bb3748e8] has joined #lisp 15:25:04 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 15:25:33 How can I push a file into DEFSYSTEM components conditionally? 15:26:01 Something similar to: "If THIS package exists, load THAT file also." 15:27:52 minion: asdf-system-connections ? 15:27:53 asdf-system-connections: ASDF-System-Connections provides auto-loading of systems that only make sense when several other systems are loaded. http://www.cliki.net/asdf-system-connections 15:28:13 brandelune_ [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:28:24 not exactly what you asked for, but that would be tricky, since some system might be loadable but not yet loaded 15:28:35 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.12] has joined #lisp 15:28:44 -!- brandelune_ [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 15:29:12 (unless you really meant package instead of system) 15:29:19 hefner: Seems the fasl removing worked wonders :) 15:30:08 that's good to know. I wonder if that's just general spookiness, or indicative of some problem in our dependencies. 15:31:21 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-175.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:31:26 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.12] has quit [Client Quit] 15:31:31 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.12] has joined #lisp 15:31:34 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host82.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:32:09 hefner: Thanks. Let me check. (BTW, I don't want that specific function to be available at the momement, but its ASDF package will eventually get loaded at the end of the current ASDF session.) 15:34:43 vy: perhaps #+#.(cl:if (cl:find-package ) '(and) '(or)) (:file "conditional-file") 15:34:50 Hrm... Nevermind. I can assume the symbols exist, as long as I use them in a macro with a fully qualified name. 15:35:37 fe[nl]ix: asdf-system-connections seems the right hammer 15:35:47 fe[nl]ix: Actually, that was the hack I was after. :D 15:35:56 argh :) 15:36:01 michaelw: asdf-system-connections is never the right hammer 15:36:05 it's broken by design 15:37:38 *hefner* must know more 15:37:46 why? If I have a foo+bar system, it loads when foo and bar get loaded, in whatever order, right? so, a load sequence foo+bar, foo, bar works, as does foo, bar, foo+bar 15:39:40 using #. here only seems useful for implementation-defined packages 15:39:46 I was wondering why the lispms didn't have something like that, but it occured to me that you don't need this as much when the normal mode of operation is to save systems into the core 15:40:55 -!- beso [n=gio123@91.151.140.4] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:40:56 the "whatever order" is the problem. a dependency graph that varies based on whatever systems I may have loaded previously can lead to brokenness 15:41:44 I remember spending hours trying to load weblocks, before giving up 15:42:15 fe[nl]ix: can you provide an example when things fail? 15:42:48 nowadays if I really need to use libraries that use a-s-c I just strip all uses of a-s-c before 15:43:16 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:43:57 excellent! you've taken your first steps on the path toward the library-hating dark side. 15:44:26 absolutely not 15:44:58 I simply made a ghetto for ugly libraries. currently it's full of gwkingware 15:45:11 hah 15:45:12 heh 15:45:20 I can relate to that 15:45:23 (just look at the most recent c.l.l post.) 15:46:15 still, I don't see how a-s-c fails (besides perhaps an implementation flaw), it's similar to Emacs' eval-after-load 15:46:33 tcr: "STOCK TRADE"? :-/ 15:46:51 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 15:46:56 michaelw: "A Tale Of..." 15:47:13 oh, heh. response to one of my post, no less 15:47:25 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:48:23 *michaelw* had to restrain himself not to write something too nasty about cl-graph's deps and Tinaa docs, and now somebody else did 15:49:59 hum, is there an insert-element-after-some-other-element-in-a-list function in alexandria ..? 15:50:37 michaelw: emacs does not have packages 15:51:20 lnostdal: (push foo (cdr (member bar list))) 15:52:41 -!- nik11 [i=c1fdf9c5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-376760d5bb3748e8] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:53:09 won't work if bar is at the end of the list, though, probably 15:53:23 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:33 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:53:42 actually it will, member is specified nicely 15:54:24 ok, maybe that's just too simple for it's own function-name 15:54:44 its* 15:54:49 still smells a little after wrong data structure, though 15:56:23 (determine-diff-operations (list "a" "b" "c" "d") (list "c" "x" "b" "a")) 15:56:23 ((REMOVE "d") (EXCHANGE-POS "a" "c") (APPEND "x" :AFTER "c")) 15:56:30 whot .. it works .. or, seems .. to work :P 15:57:02 lnostdal: did you start from diff-sexp or from scratch? 15:57:34 from what i could understand diff-sexp didn't have an exchange-thingy, so i'm trying to do this from scratch 15:57:36 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:58:23 lnostdal: yes, it has 15:58:41 search for "update-record" 16:00:42 ok, then i do not understand how to use it 16:00:46 hm 16:00:51 SW> (mw-diff-sexp:diff-sexp 16:00:51 '(a b c d) 16:00:51 '(c x b a)) 16:00:51 (:|#-new| (A B C D) :|#+new| (C X B A)) 16:02:56 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:03 it determined that there are too many edits, and it's tidier to replace the whole thing 16:03:30 disumu [n=disumu@p57A276E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:36 check method render-difference ((record update-record)) 16:03:40 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:50 ok, i'm dealing with widgets here really .. not atoms or symbols .. so it's, i think, almost always better to tell the client to rearrange things as far as possible instead of remove -- then send the entire thing (render method) to the client a-new 16:06:03 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 16:07:11 ..some of them have a lot of properties (css) and events etc. bound to them.. 16:07:13 ah well, then it's perhaps not for you, minimizing the edits is the whole point of diff-sexp 16:07:27 ok 16:07:52 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177126094.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:08:02 replor [n=replor@121.92.152.28] has joined #lisp 16:08:19 michaelw: I just came in but this diff-sexp sounds interesting. You mean this http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/lisp/diff-sexp.lisp ? 16:08:26 yes 16:09:56 gigamonkey: apparently I reinvented Selkow's algorithm; and there are better ones, see http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/3cf9f1bca21c8384 16:10:27 oops, wrong link, but the link I wanted to paste is referenced from there 16:11:01 has anyone here used cl-dot in anger? 16:11:16 I see yours treats vectors (which I assume includes strings) as opaque objects. How hard would it be to have it look into strings treating them as text? 16:12:00 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:12:19 So, for instance, if I took a big text file and converted it to a sexp markup format, I could then diff it with another such sexp. 16:12:49 -!- cbrannon [n=user@ip68-12-115-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:13:15 gigamonkey: Oudeis used diff-sexp for html diffing, IIRC 16:13:33 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.12] has quit [] 16:13:55 Enhanced to look inside strings? 16:15:00 Or would it be easier (and/or more efficient) to actually convert to an atom based form: (paragraph (sentence 'This 'is 'a 'sentence) (setence 'This 'is 'another.)) etc. 16:15:50 not sure. anyway, it's not a library (yet), so you might hack it up a little 16:16:21 (the "not sure" was in reference to what Oudeis did exactly) 16:16:29 gigamonkey: There's some cl library to diff strings and get unified diff formats 16:16:36 well, that'd work out of the box, I guess 16:16:49 tcr: cl-diff probably, but that's line-based isn't it? 16:17:23 Sure. 16:18:04 tcr: What I'm actually interested in is something that can do reasonable diffs of prose. 16:18:52 Line-oriented diffs tend to suck at that, especially when using longlines-mode--any change anywhere in a paragraph turns into a new line. 16:19:14 gigamonkey: another way would be to convert to xml and use a (non-lisp) xml tree differ 16:19:41 sexp would be better since my toolchain is already Lisp and sexp based. 16:21:09 Thanks for the pointer to that survey. Looks interesting. 16:21:10 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:23:51 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:27:53 azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 16:29:29 H4ns [n=hans@dhcp-49-41.media.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:29:50 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 16:30:26 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 16:31:16 matley [n=matley@83.225.192.169] has joined #lisp 16:34:19 -!- knobo [n=bohmersp@ti0073a340-1095.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:37 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:47 mornin' 16:37:46 jlf` [n=user@adsl-99-165-90-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:21 michaelw, http://paste.lisp.org/display/70436 .. not done much testing and it doesn't look very nice, but anyway .. 16:41:03 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-84-242.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:41:16 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:36 -!- dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:43:37 -!- Dalton [n=id@200-100-8-241.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [] 16:43:46 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 16:44:00 morning 16:44:10 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:34 hello slyrus_ 16:44:38 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 16:44:57 duaneb [i=45cd3b57@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8aca3de7039e0bfe] has joined #lisp 16:45:01 so 16:45:05 I've asked this question before 16:45:09 but I'll ask it again: 16:45:20 is there any way to control how `read` reads s expressions? 16:45:33 I want to restrict it, so I don't read vectors, symbols, etc 16:46:21 duaneb: there are some ways to restrict the reader, but you may find it easier to use a special purpose reader than to make the standard reader do what you want it to do. 16:46:22 well, *read-suppress* does that, and more! :) 16:46:34 duaneb: matimago has a cl reader that you could use. 16:46:53 matimago: you do? 16:47:34 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:47:36 hmm, *read-suppress* actually looks something kind of similar to what I envision 16:48:02 michaelw: well, you'd still have to twiddle the readtable to install functions that set *READ-SUPPRESS* at the right times. 16:48:29 duaneb: one thing that you cannot control is the interning of symbols, so if you do not want to intern symbols right away or if you want to be able to read qualified symbols that refer to non-existing packages, you need a custom reader. 16:48:30 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:51:56 benny` [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:18 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 16:55:10 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:52 H4ns: Are there any prebuilt readers, or should I build my own? :P 16:56:32 duaneb: as i said, there is the one matimago wrote and when he's here, he often recommends it. try searching the log, i am pretty sure that he mentioned it last week. 16:57:10 http://darcs.informatimago.com/darcs/public/lisp/common-lisp/reader.lisp ? 16:57:17 that one. 16:57:50 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 16:57:56 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-053-207.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:08 Thanks 16:58:10 uh, it's gpl. 16:58:27 'tis fine, it's an internal project 16:58:56 ok, then you should be all set. 17:00:29 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.127.54] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:45 any mcclim users around? can i use pane as presentation type? 17:01:04 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 17:01:13 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.234.4] has joined #lisp 17:01:19 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 17:01:19 vasa [n=vasa@mm-119-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 17:03:57 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:05:09 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:09:03 marksc [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 17:10:37 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:11:06 stassats`: I use mcclim, but I don't understand your question :) 17:11:39 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A276E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:29 schme_: i want to be able to select one of the panes for ACCEPT 17:14:10 Oh I see. 17:14:11 i'm mcclim user since this morning, so my terminology might not be straight 17:14:37 I've been toying with it for some time, my terminology is totally not straight. So don't worry :) 17:14:49 I can't imagine why you would not be able to use pane as type though. 17:14:57 If it will work as you hope I dunno :) 17:15:19 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:15:34 I had some issues with type before. Seems the type thing doesn't do subclasses. 17:15:36 heh :) 17:16:51 lispm [n=joswig@e177152112.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:16:52 i added (define-presentation-translator pane-to-square (square-pane square chess :gesture :select) ..) but it doesn't seem to be called 17:17:34 also, i tried (define-presentation-translator pane-to-square (t square chess :gesture :select) (object)..) and when selecting pane object is nil 17:19:29 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.234.4] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:20:10 I think the problem is that the panes were never "presented", so they aren't presentations. 17:20:28 ok, how do i present them? 17:20:34 clim present 17:20:34 Multiple entries found. Try looking up one of: "present,Presentation Method", "present,Function", "present,Concept" 17:20:35 -!- duaneb [i=45cd3b57@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8aca3de7039e0bfe] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:20:42 clim present,Function 17:20:43 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/23-4.html#_1193 17:20:54 But, that said, I'm mostly guessing, as I am at best passingly familiar with McCLIM. 17:21:13 (Or CLIM in general, really.) 17:21:18 stassats`: You're making a chess thing? 17:21:25 schme_: yep 17:21:40 And you made 8x8 panes? 17:21:54 yes, 64 panes 17:22:00 Oh cools. 17:22:09 I'm thinking formatting-table and presenting 'em in that. 17:22:38 stassats`: That's good inspiration with you making a chess thing. Maybe I'll get back to making the clim backgammon thing :) 17:22:50 looks like this http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1397/mcclimax4.png 17:22:54 (I got angry with the threads) 17:23:16 Don't forget to make a CLIM Go board thing as well! 17:23:21 Are you gonna hook it up to that there chess server thing? 17:23:32 nyef: I probably would if I played Go :) 17:23:40 schme_: yes, that's in plans 17:23:40 stassats`: Very nice!! 17:23:41 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 17:23:49 Hrm... 17:24:03 *nyef* marks it down on his possible-future-project list. 17:24:04 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:24:30 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:44 stassats`: I started working on a clim backgammon client for playing on fibs. The backgammon server. I got stuck in oddities with having a seperate thread for the network stuff, and then I DIED. 17:24:49 I will restart it one of these days :) 17:25:42 That's a neat idea with the 64 panes. 17:25:59 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:26:17 -!- jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:02 I'd probably have done a single pane with either 64 "square" presentations in it or some custom methods to pretend to have the squares without actually having to deal with output records. 17:27:22 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 17:27:31 schme_: *separate 17:27:35 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 17:27:52 mathrick: thanks, flyspell-mathrick :) 17:28:12 no problem, I simply do that to make the pain go away 17:28:33 I appreciate it. 17:28:45 English is quite difficult :) 17:28:48 glad to hear that 17:28:57 the appreciation, not the difficulty :)( 17:29:00 s/(// 17:29:03 benny [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:29:13 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:29:16 Hahaha. 17:31:50 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:32:33 doing present doesn't seem to help 17:32:49 H4ns1 [n=hans@dhcp-49-41.media.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:33:15 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@dhcp-49-41.media.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:33:26 stassats`: that's because CLIM cannot be bribed :) 17:33:38 H4ns1 [n=hans@dhcp-49-41.media.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:34:03 So, how about one pane for the board, and presenting the squares within using with-output-as-presentation and drawing rectangles or something? 17:34:37 I did that for sokoban 17:35:37 initially, I used a table, but later I just managed the cells myself 17:35:41 don't know, it seems for me easier to move pieces between panes, panes have name e2, e4, etc. 17:36:18 stassats`: And you don't have an 8x8 array for the squares called board? 17:36:37 nyef: i have actually, but don't use so far 17:36:50 do you think it is better to redraw from it every time? 17:36:53 i have a problem 17:37:01 how will you check for allowed moves? :) 17:37:22 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:37:23 Redraw? Isn't updating-output supposed to deal with that? 17:37:31 i have sbcl and ccl installed on my mbp and want to use elephant under both lisps 17:37:49 but it seems that the memutil dylibs are only generated for 1 arch 17:38:04 x86 32bit or x86 64bit 17:38:10 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:38:47 ok, maybe it's a better idea 17:39:12 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.192.169] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:40:43 Damnit, now I'm thinking about how to go about implementing bits of a go modem protocol client and sgf editor. 17:42:27 nyef: BWAHAHAHAHA! 17:42:34 nyef: You cannot escape your destiny. 17:43:01 Apparently not. 17:44:02 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:07 Hey, what was that position paper we all laughed about a few years ago about building a new LispOS around the linux kernel by incrementally replacing bits of the userland? 17:45:23 jewel [n=jewel@41.247.196.250] has joined #lisp 17:45:23 OT: people looking at native self-drawn guis would probably enjoy seeing this C++ thing: http://www.viksoe.dk/code/windowless1.htm 17:46:01 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 17:46:12 for inspiration 17:46:27 syamajala: i guess you'll have to have two trees, one for 64 bit and another for 32. 17:46:40 thats what i'm doing right now 17:46:42 gio123 [n=gio123@91.151.140.4] has joined #lisp 17:47:14 i'll post on the elephant mailing list 17:47:31 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 17:48:46 -!- H4ns [n=hans@dhcp-49-41.media.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:49:26 fusss: Interesting. I just bookmarked it for later. 17:50:22 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:50:24 look at the second link in the page as well, the MS blog post. talks about IE GUI implementation. 17:50:38 rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:53 I'm having trouble installing cl-graph with clbuild 17:51:27 mogunus pasted "error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70447 17:51:47 That's the error I get. I also installed metatilities with clbuild, and that did not change the error. 17:51:56 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@dhcp-49-41.media.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:13 mogunus: you do have old metatilities around? 17:52:25 michaelw: no, this is the first time I've installed it 17:52:31 -!- jsimonss [n=jesse@urda-140.teknologforeningen.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:27 hmm, I installed it with clbuild last week, and it worked for me 17:53:53 mogunus: so what is your metatilities-base version (from the .asd file)? 17:54:25 michaelw: I don't seem to have a metatilities-base.asd? 17:54:39 Just a metatilities.asd in the source/metatilities directory 17:55:16 metatilities-base is its own project 17:55:37 Ah, that would be my problem then. Can it be installed with clbuild? 17:55:41 yes 17:56:06 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:56:33 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:57:16 elurin [n=user@88.254.98.183] has joined #lisp 17:57:22 Hm, I guess I need to update clbuild then. 17:58:03 There it is. Sweet. Thanks. 17:59:27 jsimonss [n=jesse@urda-140.teknologforeningen.fi] has joined #lisp 18:02:27 dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:59 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 18:03:46 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:03:53 mogunus: what are doing with cl-graph? 18:04:17 slyrus_: you'll laugh at me 18:04:26 try me 18:04:42 slyrus_: I'm implementing a "map" of locations in a fairy tale world 18:05:19 haha 18:05:23 slyrus_: each node represents a geographic location with stuff in it which is connected or not connected to other nodes 18:06:15 characters in the world use a shortest-path algorithm to find their way from one place to another (as well as constraints on their method of locomotion, for instance, whether they can swim, fly, walk, etc) 18:06:32 mogunus: if you want another graph package, you might try epigraph: http://git.cyrusharmon.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=epigraph.git 18:06:47 And I'm beginning to think that cl-graph doesn't actually have a shortest paths algorithm 18:07:10 doesn't breadth-first-search get you the shortest path? 18:07:13 single source shortest paths, specifically 18:07:25 a shortest path, anyway 18:07:56 I'm having trouble with IPC through TCP sockets... One end prints to the socket and then closes it, and the other end reads from it and then closes it. The printed information never arrives, unless I remove the close after the print (thus relying on the other side to close it). Am I missing something? Is this normal socket behaviour? It seems broken. 18:08:39 slyrus_: why did you start epigraph? 18:09:07 I needed a graph package and it seemed like less work than fixing cl-graph to my liking 18:09:19 I just read the NOTES :) 18:10:10 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:10:10 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-119-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 18:10:38 the good news is that it now works well enough that I can represent chemical structures (molecules) to my liking 18:10:41 for the most part... 18:11:05 still don't have a good representation of chiral centers and geometric isomers, but the basic stuff works well 18:11:13 I don't think the BFS in cl-graph actually returns the path 18:11:30 the one in epigraph does :) 18:11:57 I'd expect bfs to be a traversal, and if you want to return something you need to do the bookkeeping yourself 18:12:06 actually, writing that was an interesting eye-opener for the awesomeness of lisp lists. 18:12:20 -!- jlf` [n=user@adsl-99-165-90-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:46 -!- dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:02 I (mistakenly) thought that storing the path for each node along the way would be really expensive, but sharing the structure of the list meant that this was no less efficient than explicitly keeping pointers back and walking back ala CLRS bfs 18:13:04 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 18:13:10 also, what apprently most graph packages get wrong is that I have already some sort of graph representation, and I just want to get the standard algorithms without writing them myself 18:13:51 michaelw: I have a bfs that returns the path and a bfs-map that just does the traversal 18:13:59 slyrus_: you "just" need to store backpointers (which, in my applications is expensive enough that I sometimes try to avoid it) 18:14:28 michaelw: right, but that turns out to be no better than keeping the list around, due to the list sharing and you don't need to walk back, you've already got the winning list 18:14:45 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:15:03 I wish I had the norvig book. 18:15:04 koning_robot: make sure you call finish-output on the socket before closing it 18:15:16 I thought it would n^2 space, but, it's actually linear, as is storing the backpointers 18:15:36 yes, backpointers doubles storage space 18:15:45 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 18:18:10 irm [n=irm@unaffiliated/irm] has joined #lisp 18:18:39 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:52 fe[nl]ix: doesn't seem to make a difference... I'd expect close to flush things for me, though. 18:19:20 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:21:00 I get an ECONNRESET on the receiving end by the way. I should sniff and see what's happening... 18:21:28 -!- elurin [n=user@88.254.98.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:29 milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.41] has joined #lisp 18:28:04 dnolen [n=dnolen@70.107.142.24] has joined #lisp 18:29:33 cbrannon [n=user@ip68-12-115-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:37 kleppari_ [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 18:33:16 koning_robot: what CL implementation are you using, btw ? 18:33:23 clisp 18:33:41 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:34:04 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit [Client Quit] 18:35:42 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:32 koning_robot: in clisp, there's a function SOCKET:SOCKET-STREAM-SHUTDOWN to deal with this proble.m 18:37:02 koning_robot: read the implementation notes. 18:37:11 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-212.kosnet.ru] has quit ["."] 18:38:12 -!- irm [n=irm@unaffiliated/irm] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:36 nyef: amazing self-drawn opengl gui http://www.opencascade.org/showroom/screenshots/ 18:41:27 hard to believe those MDI windows are opengl, but look at the specs page. wow! 18:43:19 Yes, shutdown works, but there's no need to keep it open for reading because I won't be reading from it anymore. I just want to close it (which the implementation notes say I should do eventually, regardless of whether I use shutdown). 18:43:48 fusss: If I'm not mistaken, Mirai used GL for its gui...much more wow than that...and it was done in CL :) 18:44:33 koning_robot: you should probably use shutdown from the sender side. 18:47:08 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:47:23 tsuru: woah there. was mirai running on franz cl? 18:47:41 pjb: calling shutdown(2) is almost never needed 18:47:46 Yeah, it does what I need... But I can't understand why close doesn't work. It should flush buffers and everything just like shutdown does. 18:47:56 locklace: we 18:48:03 're discussing socket:socket-shutdown. 18:48:06 yes, close is the correct way to dispose of a socket 18:48:06 in clisp 18:48:28 pjb: so is that not a wrapper around shutdown(2)? 18:48:54 It seems to do the same thing: close the socket in one direction. 18:49:46 anyone knows how to prevent the directory function in sbcl from "following" symlinks and returning the real file pathname? I've been looking in hyperspec (nothing there, really), sbcl doc (lost, found nothing there either), and even sbcl's sources. I've found the directory function but I still don't find how is "logical-pathname-p" defined in order to run it in my repl and see _what_ is wrong about 18:49:47 "directory" function imho. I think I'm not yet used to mess with sbcl's code. Could anyone help me understand it? 18:50:05 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 18:50:31 directory calls truename which follows the symlinks. 18:50:39 koning_robot: that's what i'd expect. and you're right, something's hosed, because close is the right thing 18:50:40 If you don't want that, then don't use directory. 18:50:52 tc-rucho: note that symlink is not a CL type. 18:50:53 tc-rucho: what makes you think there is anything wrong with that behaviour? If you want semantics that are closer to posix(-ish), I think CL-FAD or osicat are meant to address that. 18:51:19 tc-rucho: this means that if you want to deal finely with file systems having symlinks, you'd better use the native file system API rather than CL. 18:51:45 I see 18:51:47 irm [n=irm@unaffiliated/irm] has joined #lisp 18:52:09 tc-rucho: have a look at SB-POSIX. 18:52:38 checking 18:53:41 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:12 pkhuong: I think it should be possible to do (directory #P"/home/tc-rucho/somefolder" :follow-symlinks nil). 18:55:30 If you prefix it with #+sbcl 18:55:47 pjb: :allow-other-keys t 18:56:26 If you want. 18:56:35 vy [n=user@88.229.117.86] has joined #lisp 18:56:46 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:00:36 elurin [n=user@88.254.98.183] has joined #lisp 19:01:16 doxtor [i=phytovor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 19:05:54 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:08:26 any of you guys done this? 19:08:27 http://tinyurl.com/653mng 19:10:01 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:11:19 i don't understand how its supposed to work if you never specify which core file to use 19:11:44 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@207-237-217-78.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:12:09 syamajala: what do you mean with core file? 19:12:36 like with sbcl, normally don't you do sbcl -I somefile 19:12:53 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:08 i mean 19:13:12 - --core 19:13:17 ccl is -I 19:13:33 tc-rucho: osicat:list-directory does what you want 19:13:54 syamajala: slime calls sbcl with the initialization file needed 19:14:18 well i guess it doesn't seem to be working for me 19:14:19 fe[nl]ix: will check right now 19:14:28 syamajala: what distro do you use? 19:14:34 i'm on os x 19:14:38 .... 19:14:42 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 19:15:02 syamajala: but you're using emacs, right? 19:15:09 yeah 19:15:34 syamajala: then add (require 'slime) (slime-setup) (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl --noinform") to your .emacs 19:15:37 syamajala: in the previous post, he explained how to create images and put them in various implementations' default locations. 19:15:38 syamajala: i used such configuration, but it doesn't significantly speedup, unless you are rebooting sbcl every 2 minutes 19:15:39 and you're ready to go 19:15:46 tc-rucho: you don't understand. 19:15:58 *tc-rucho* reads again 19:16:17 pkhuong: i guess i only did half of that then, because i generated the images but didn't put them in the default locations 19:16:38 pkhuong: oh, thought he was having problems getting a working repl :P 19:17:23 syamajala: but, how long does your repl takes to start? 19:17:32 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:17:35 take* 19:17:45 i load a lot of stuff 19:17:53 like hunchentoot 19:20:18 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 19:20:30 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 19:21:51 ivarref [n=ivar@sos1-1x-dhcp113.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 19:22:17 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@207-237-217-78.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:38 hefner: I tried the not doing the pane resize "by hand" after displaying various stuff. Works just perfect. 19:25:56 fe[nl]ix: thanks a ton for pointing me to the osicat package, it does something even better than what I was looking for :D 19:29:46 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:15 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 19:30:19 tc-rucho: make sure you use the development version: http://common-lisp.net/project/osicat/git/osicat.git 19:31:16 -!- marksc [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:03 fe[nl]ix: I'm using the 0.5.0 version, and it's working ok as far as I've tested 19:33:31 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:33:41 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 19:37:06 by the way, what's the difference between cffi and uffi? they seem to aim for the same thing 19:38:15 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@92.41.101.224.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:38:38 disumu [n=disumu@p57A276E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:15 tc-rucho: cffi is in more active development 19:39:20 cffi supersedes uffi. uffi is deprecated. 19:39:24 it's also somewhat easier to use IMO 19:39:32 I see 19:39:52 I asked cause google was of no help when searching cffi vs uffi 19:40:22 tc-rucho: the git version is going to be the next release someday 19:40:46 also, cffi has an uffi compatibility layer 19:40:58 *rsynnott* is currently using BOTH! :) 19:41:07 user__ [n=user@p549242C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:18 (cffi for ssl, uffi for elephant) 19:41:46 fe[nl]ix: yes, but since I'm not involved with the osicat project in any way, and since there was a pretty recent osicat ebuild in my portage tree, I just emerged it ;) 19:42:07 tc-rucho: are you using the lisp overlay ? 19:42:36 *rsynnott* would be cautious of using distribution mechanisms to install lisp stuff 19:42:37 fe[nl]ix: that rings a bell, but can't remember what was that right now 19:42:48 fe[nl]ix: oh 19:42:50 though maybe gentoo's is better; I've never tried it. Life's too short 19:42:52 fe[nl]ix: wait, remembered 19:43:05 fe[nl]ix: no, I haven't added it 19:43:06 yet 19:43:30 rsynnott: gentoo's ebuild system is able to yank stuff straight from source control 19:43:31 tc-rucho: #gentoo-lisp for more info 19:43:54 rsynnott: so if their ebuilds work like that, it would be fine as a lisp installation mechanism. 19:43:55 rsynnott: as sykopomp said, among other things 19:44:32 I use a mac for development and an old ubuntu for deployment, so I'm pretty much stuck with doing everything manually :) 19:45:40 rsynnott: not necessarily: Gentoo's portage works under OSX too 19:45:42 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.41] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:46:03 fe[nl]ix: OSX also has macports. 19:46:16 unless that's what they call portage of osx (I don't think it is?) 19:46:34 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 19:46:48 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 19:48:32 macports is of bsd origin, I think 19:48:46 I just use it for installing erlang and similar 19:50:57 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:51:13 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-130-125.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:02 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 19:55:19 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-511e05534475bc85] has joined #lisp 19:57:24 -!- vy [n=user@88.229.117.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:13 prowack [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:00:25 <``Erik> fink is the bsd origin one, macports seems related, but instead of using makefiles, it uses a weird 'Portfile' with no manifest :/ 20:01:10 No, fink is derived from Debian's apt. 20:01:14 yea, fink is sucky though imho 20:01:19 at least compared to macports 20:01:30 MacPorts is inspired by (and written by some of the same authors as), but not derived from, FreeBSD ports. 20:01:33 although it has some binary packages 20:01:41 <``Erik> erm, been a while since I've used fink... longer since I've used debian :) been fbsd/osX for many years 20:02:01 one good thing about macports is it puts everything in /opt/local 20:02:21 so if you go to a new computer you can mostly just copy that over 20:02:35 If I recall correctly, Gentoo's portage, too, is inspired by or perhaps even derived from FreeBSD ports, or from pkgsrc (which in turn is a derivative of FreeBSD ports). 20:02:56 portage is a clone written in python 20:03:17 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 20:03:27 <``Erik> http://funroll-loops.info/ O:-) 20:04:05 yea, gentoo is for ricers 20:04:07 no doubt about that 20:04:19 or people who like to watch gcc output 20:04:20 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:48 GCC command-line arguments, usually, not GCC output! 20:04:56 On any modern system, gentoo is fast 20:05:02 ltbarcly: or people that like to use a custom tuned system 20:05:04 to compile* 20:05:04 on any modern system anything is fast 20:05:15 'custom tuned' == ricer 20:05:39 kde isn't fast to compile 20:05:43 anyone else having trouble with the `q' key in some contexts in (latest, cvs) Slime? .. it does not always restore things proper .. (using emacs 23.0.60.1 .. maybe that's the problem..) 20:05:49 well, depending on the meaning of fast 20:06:32 Riastradh: what do you mean? emerging something outputs all the portage checks and gcc output 20:06:33 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@92.41.101.224.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has left #lisp 20:06:56 tc-rucho, what `output' does GCC produce except for object files and the like? 20:07:06 (and, in some cases, warnings or error messages) 20:07:11 Riastradh: it tells you every file it compiles 20:07:33 errors and mostly make output 20:07:36 I mean, have you ever compiled something? 20:07:41 warnings too 20:07:57 yea, I guess it is make 20:08:02 In most cases, GCC doesn't produce any standard output. 20:08:10 either way, it produces gads of text 20:08:21 If you're talking about the mumblage such as `gcc -Wfnord -I/blah/grumble -L/fnord/foobar -O42 ...', that's GCC command-line arguments. 20:08:38 that is splitting hairs 20:08:46 that's make's output 20:11:04 koning_robot pasted "print on socket mystery" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70457 20:11:08 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.247.196.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:11:29 for anyone interested in mysteries 20:12:57 Keith_M_ [n=keith@oit-143-146.OIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:13:26 jewel [n=jewel@41.247.196.192] has joined #lisp 20:14:57 -!- irm [n=irm@unaffiliated/irm] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:15:39 hrr4 [n=hrr4@81.90.21.226] has joined #lisp 20:16:11 irm [n=irm@unaffiliated/irm] has joined #lisp 20:17:41 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@78.149.252.77] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:22 pmatos [n=pmatos@78.147.207.213] has joined #lisp 20:20:56 koning_robot: cl-port is obsolete 20:21:56 -!- drwhen|work is now known as drwhen 20:22:36 koning_robot: try usocket 20:23:56 koning_robot: http://common-lisp.net/project/usocket ; or use clisp sockets directly. 20:26:06 okay thanks, i'll look into it 20:27:58 -!- ``Erik_ [n=erik@ftp.brlcad.org] has quit ["leaving"] 20:29:01 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:34 ltbarcly: c++ compilers are one of the few things which have generally gotten slower quicker than computers have gotten faster 20:36:43 rsynnott: one could also argue that few C++ compilers actually compiled C++ years. 20:37:00 *except for the last couple years 20:37:37 Agree on that one; at work we write C++ Light because of the brokenness of the compilers we have to work with. 20:37:37 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:38:39 and at the very instant that the c++ template language evolves into a complete implementation of common lisp, the compilation time for any single source file will become infinite 20:38:50 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:39:08 tic: what's c++ light ? 20:39:46 lhz, C with classes and virtual functions, excluding exceptions, templates, rtti, global variables (!) and probably other things I can't remember right now. 20:40:36 tic, anything like the Ericsson convention ? 20:41:21 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178032110.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:22 lhz, I haven't seen any /// code, but they probably have the same problems as we do. (like gcc-2.95, ADS, ...) 20:44:16 tic, they wrote some guideline how to deal with c++.. cant remember it. 20:44:16 tic: for embedded stuff? 20:44:49 it will be interesting to see whether anyone actually implements c0x 20:44:52 *x++0x 20:44:54 *c 20:44:55 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:44:56 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:09 (it'll have lambdas, apparently!) 20:45:13 rsynnott, yeah, embedded. 20:45:16 Anyone know some neato algorithm for splitting lines of text into two or more lines of text.. with it being pretty and all. 20:45:19 ? 20:45:27 lhz, we have that stuff to. Luckily I'm largely unaffected by it. 20:45:37 tic: yep, I think a lot of embedded stuff used cut-down c++ 20:45:41 *uses 20:46:09 schme_: you mean splitting one long line for display to the user? 20:46:17 rsynnott: Exactly. 20:46:18 rsynnott, we scale from embedded to desktop w/ the same product -- there are desktop compilers that are pretty crappy as well. :) 20:46:24 usually best left to whtever the presentation layer is, IMO 20:46:44 schme_, that's either NP complete or implemented by Knuth. :) 20:46:55 rsynnott: That is a problem. It seems the cells in a McCLIM formatting-table pretty much adapt to what I put in them. 20:47:05 ah :( 20:47:15 There's a nice MIN-width, no MAX-width. 20:47:49 a really simple brain-dead way is to go through it until you reach max-length, then split on last whitespace, and repeat as necessary 20:47:52 t 20:47:54 tic: integer linear solvers can be pretty good at exploiting hidden structure if you don't feel like coding it yourself. 20:48:10 though that will break on really long words/urls 20:48:25 rsynnott: Yes. I suppose that will have to be it. 20:48:26 pkhuong, what would be the hidden structure? (I'm not very good at this field) 20:48:31 also, it will break on variable length fonts 20:49:04 when programming with GD or similar, one approach is to pretend to render it to get the width, then break up as necessary, then really render it 20:49:18 I just count on everyone using monospace fonts. who uses anything else on computers anyways, eh? 20:49:20 xach may know more, as he does lots of this stuff 20:49:22 tic: don't know, but if it's not an artificial problem/artificial instances, there usually is some. 20:49:34 What's GD? 20:49:55 very primitive image-rendering library 20:50:03 used for making images for the web and such 20:50:04 oh ok. 20:50:07 there's a cl interface 20:50:09 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-136-36-191.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:09 I see. 20:50:12 but the principle is the same 20:50:15 pkhuong, nice and cathegorical. :) 20:50:28 tic, "industrial strength c++" that was what I was trying to remember :) 20:50:52 Just a bitch to do the pretend rendering over and over. The function is already slow as it is :) 20:51:38 lhz, a.k.a. "watered down c++ to deal with broken compilers and/or minimal/bad implementations of libstdc++"? :) 20:52:13 *stassats`* is trying to do drag-n-drop in mcclim 20:52:21 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 20:53:15 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:53:16 tic: it's like SAT. In theory we don't know how to do that efficiently. In practice (e.g. model checking), smart people have figured out tons of useful shortcuts/heuristics. 20:53:28 tic, where is my industrial strength cl book ? 20:53:42 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:53:50 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 20:53:53 pkhuong, yeah, I was just thinking you meant something specific on -text- when you said hidden structure. (re what you said: agreed.) 20:54:11 lhz, beats me! are you located in Kista or Göteborg? (or elsewhere?) 20:54:20 tic, kista 20:54:23 -!- attila_lendvai is now known as Guest69314 20:54:36 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 20:54:56 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 20:55:02 tic: haven't looked at that problem (yet). I think beach might... which reminds me that I owe him a simplex (: 20:55:06 lhz, Swedish Lispers gaining ground? :) 20:55:25 -!- Guest69314 is now known as attila_lendvai 20:55:28 tic, thank gigamonkey for that :) 20:55:30 pkhuong, you've borrowed one? 20:55:40 lhz, definitely. gigamonkey and rydis, in my case. 20:56:48 *tic* feels he's just producing noise. 20:57:36 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@221.Red-81-35-199.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:02 Well time for a smoke :) 20:59:19 how do you invoke build of a single contrib ? 21:00:38 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-39-9.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:49 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@78.147.207.213] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:02:05 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:16 Here's a thing that puzzles me with the McCLIM. I have this formatting-table going. one row has a cell with some drawn text like "ygyggygygygygygy". row below it has another cell, all filled up with a jpeg drawn at 0 0. For some reason this cuts off the bottom of the ygygygygygygy.. makes it appear more like uouououououo. What's up with that? 21:02:34 drawing the jpeg at 0 10 solves it. But it seems wrong. 21:03:23 schme_: Sounds like it's not taking descenders into account. 21:03:50 (Possibly, it's merely failing to correctly bias the position it's drawing the text at.) 21:04:08 -!- elurin [n=user@88.254.98.183] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:04:11 lhz: SBCL? go in the contrib's source and make 21:04:16 elurin [n=user@88.254.98.183] has joined #lisp 21:04:42 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@221.Red-81-35-199.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 21:04:59 pkhuong: get an error "--load" not recognized or something.. 21:05:42 made a custom make-target-contrib instead :) 21:05:55 nyef: That is the feel I am getting too. That it is skipping the descending part :) 21:06:10 lhz: yeah, you might have to set some env. vars. 21:06:52 is anybody still using PG ? 21:08:08 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:27 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:32 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:54 About how long does it take to load McCLIM from fasls on SBCL? 21:13:12 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:13:20 if it's an oldish version, probably abut a year 21:13:32 the fasl-loading has gotten far faster recently 21:14:04 Hrm... Actually, I think that was a thinko on my part. Maybe it doesn't matter for what I'm trying to figure out. 21:14:34 if you want to use it, making a core with it in it may be the saner approach :) 21:14:45 Yeah, that's what I realized. 21:14:48 16.577 seconds of real time 21:15:00 Make a core with McCLIM, then have applications loaded by fasl. 21:15:23 (Since lots of applications held as cores would suck.) 21:15:49 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:16:18 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:19:41 ... Can slime/swank be made to communicate over a unix-domain socket instead of a TCP socket? 21:20:12 (I'm thinking here of creating a /tmp/.swank-.sock or something.) 21:22:19 probably not; it would involve extra impl-specific pain 21:23:08 Right, and maintaining hot-patches to SLIME is a bad idea. 21:23:12 Fair enough. 21:23:18 (Damn.) 21:23:29 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.101.131] has quit ["Induhvidual Quote: “I got under your goat.”"] 21:23:35 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:39 I'll put that on the list for further investigation anyway. 21:25:47 Oh, -duh-. Just dump the port number in /tmp/. 21:25:58 Right, okay, no problem here. 21:26:19 isn't that what swank already does? 21:26:43 Possibly. 21:27:06 My use case is trying to open a swank server on a running program that doesn't have a REPL available. 21:27:09 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 21:27:53 I was figuring on having a SIGUSR2 handler or something that would start a swank server, and then having something comunicated back to emacs from there. 21:28:40 Not that this isn't a brain-damaged workaround for not having the software I really want in the first place, but I have to start somewhere. 21:28:47 IIRC, you can ask swank to write its port number into a specified filename 21:29:07 Yeah, so it's possible, and I can worry about it later. 21:29:29 FareWell [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:21 hi FareWell 21:31:52 -!- Keith_M_ [n=keith@oit-143-146.OIT.EDU] has left #lisp 21:33:00 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 21:33:05 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:34:51 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 21:35:28 beso [n=gio123@91.151.140.4] has joined #lisp 21:35:39 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 21:36:48 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.164.75] has joined #lisp 21:37:08 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:37:10 -!- irm [n=irm@unaffiliated/irm] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:38:02 -!- gio123 [n=gio123@91.151.140.4] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:44 hi 21:38:52 fe[nl]ix, how's iolib doing these days? 21:39:04 pretty well 21:39:13 uffff, hell is model-view-controller, with apologies to Sartre 21:39:13 I admit I haven't followed much (but I know that hansX is complaining about lack of documentation) 21:40:10 does somebody has a book: Salomaa, Theory of Automata? 21:40:20 beso: Didn't you ask this a few hours ago? 21:42:12 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:20 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:28 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:42:31 beso: Hopcroft & Ullman killed the category 21:42:54 FareWell: bah, only the week complain for documentation... although it could have some more tests... :) 21:43:20 "weak" 21:47:33 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@207-237-217-78.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:48 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:29 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:49:56 if by "weak" you mean "don't like their time wasted" 21:50:48 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:51:44 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:01 Halabund [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/halabund] has joined #lisp 21:52:22 ehu` [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-291a5f5851be991b] has joined #lisp 21:52:24 -!- FareWell is now known as Fare 21:53:47 Fare: ping 21:53:55 pong 21:54:18 Fare: sorry to hassle ya, are there any news on this month's lisp meeting? 21:54:31 oh, yes, I gotta send a general announcement 21:54:32 jao [n=user@47.Red-79-155-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:41 great :D 21:54:45 beso: please ask your questions here. cheers! 21:55:06 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:56:09 where is this place that has a high enough concentration of lisp programmers to have weekly meetings? 21:56:18 as previously mentionned, Gregory Marton will speak on November 24th 2008 1800 at MIT 34-401B about the meanings of English words as programs 21:56:19 *monthly 21:56:41 that sounds fascinating! 21:56:56 -!- Halabund [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/halabund] has quit ["Bye"] 21:57:32 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:08 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:03 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 22:03:55 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:04:34 ecraven [i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 22:05:41 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAC62E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:24 kami-` [n=user@p4FD39263.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:10:41 -!- ivarref [n=ivar@sos1-1x-dhcp113.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:12:24 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:15:36 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.164.75] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:53 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 22:20:32 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:22:07 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@81.90.21.226] has quit ["leaving"] 22:25:48 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD3ABA1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:27:39 Is there a command to move the cursor directly to the input prompt in slime? 22:28:03 say you're elsewhere in the repl buffer, and want to go immediately to the prompt. 22:28:22 assuming the input prompt is at the bottom, C-c SHIFT-> 22:28:53 ahem 22:28:56 apparently not 22:29:00 something LIKE that, though :) 22:29:06 heh 22:29:09 -!- user__ [n=user@p549242C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:29:15 C- 22:29:38 ah, M-> 22:29:41 or M-> 22:30:16 oh, great. thanks 22:30:35 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:21 hej rvirding 22:31:31 hi 22:31:44 who asked earlier about pattern matching? 22:31:58 tweren't me :-) 22:32:03 I seem to recall tic asking about it 22:32:18 *michaelw* think vy, but could be wrong 22:32:31 Ok maybe everyone did. 22:32:38 vy seems to ask about that pretty regularly. 22:33:01 anyway, I was wondering whether anybody tried MCPat 22:33:03 what was the question? and was it something i could answer? 22:33:33 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-98-234-70-67.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:40 rvirding: nothing specific, just what lisp options there are for extensible pattern matchers 22:33:42 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177152112.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:33:54 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 22:34:20 you mean general packages which can be used in any lisp? 22:34:27 yes 22:34:57 aha, no can't help you there 22:35:59 michaelw: i use some barely documented snippet of mine. 22:36:20 pkhuong: I saw it :) 22:37:03 my standard weapon of choice is fare-matcher, FWIW 22:37:16 (not that I need pattern matching much, mind you) 22:37:56 someone should clone clozure's pattern matching for cl 22:38:01 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:38:16 rsynnott: clozure has a non-portable pattern matcher? 22:38:30 heh, ILTWYS"someone" 22:38:59 slyrus: your git gateway is timing out on me all the time :( 22:39:05 I SEEM to remember it having something nice when I tried it 22:39:36 michaelw, I wrote fare-matcher, there's something in arnesi, and probably other options, too. 22:39:37 michaelw: wewll, someonewho is a less perfect combination of busy and lzy than me 22:39:56 michaelw: can't agree with you there, once you get used to pattern matching you miss greatly when it doesn't exist 22:40:15 changes your style of writing 22:40:16 going from ML to Lisp was very painful to me. 22:40:30 rvirding: you can often use more restricted forms of pattern matching by architecturing things differently. 22:40:38 I love erlang's pattern matching 22:40:38 Fare: no matching? 22:40:39 Fare: why ? 22:40:46 rvirding, yup no matching 22:40:46 but I can't see how it would sensbily work in lisp 22:40:53 rvirding: I'm an old haskeller, fwiw, when I really do need pattern matching I can go there 22:40:57 that's why I wrote fare-matcher. 22:41:13 maybe something for pulling apart stuctures/clos objects could work 22:41:23 rsynnott, have you tried fare-matcher? 22:41:31 pkhuong: (if ...) is matching I suppose :-) seriously it changes how you structure programs 22:41:32 Fare: nope 22:41:35 will take a look 22:41:35 For example, in my previous scheme compiler (to javascript), I used lists & pattern matching extensively. In my current compiler (another course, another project ;), I use structures a lot more, and dispatching on types is usually enough. 22:42:23 pkhuong, pattern matching does both type-dispatching AND binding in one go. 22:42:24 rsynnott: i'm fairly certain most pattern matching libraries handle much more than just lists. 22:42:45 Fare: fwiw, I wasn't really looking, I'm already a mostly happy customer of fare-matcher :) 22:42:55 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:55 ah, that looks quite nice 22:43:08 being used to smart matching you use it a lot to pull apart and test complex structures 22:43:27 Fare: binding isn't an issue. Having to look deeply in the object is more annoying, but it doesn't come up that often. 22:43:33 in one step without nesting 22:43:33 -!- ecraven [i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has quit ["bbl"] 22:43:59 pkhuong: the deep looking is actually what can bite down the line 22:44:30 Sechshut [n=sechshut@unaffiliated/sechshut] has joined #lisp 22:44:37 michaelw: what do you mean? 22:44:43 vast trees of slot-value :) 22:45:10 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:45:23 pkhuong: if the data representation changes; law of demeter and all 22:45:35 -!- Sechshut [n=sechshut@unaffiliated/sechshut] has quit [Client Quit] 22:45:47 -!- beso [n=gio123@91.151.140.4] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:46:01 webpigeon [n=webpigeo@77-96-228-110.cable.ubr01.chel.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:46:17 !pastebin 22:46:48 minion: paste 22:46:51 paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 22:47:16 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 22:47:24 fe[nl]ix, thankyou :) 22:48:29 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-511e05534475bc85] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:50:35 -!- ehu` [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-291a5f5851be991b] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:51:43 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-175.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:27 -!- webpigeon [n=webpigeo@77-96-228-110.cable.ubr01.chel.blueyonder.co.uk] has left #lisp 22:54:02 fe[nl]ix, does iolib have support for sigfd, including faking them when they're not in the kernel? 22:54:47 no 22:55:03 you need it ? 22:55:37 pattern matching is particularly great for implementing binary wire protocols and similar 22:58:03 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:58:16 rsynnott: look at matching binaries in Erlang to see how easy it can be 22:58:28 binaries = binary data 22:58:57 mib_opwy65m9 [i=470aa6e2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-36d834a71dfe104f] has joined #lisp 22:59:18 rvirding: yep, that's my primary experience of it 22:59:41 (messing with an erlang thrift binding, and doing a funny binary server for work a while back) 22:59:59 aha, ok, good 23:00:39 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@35.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:01:18 H4ns [n=hans@mb20736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:02 -!- mib_opwy65m9 [i=470aa6e2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-36d834a71dfe104f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 23:06:29 mib_opwy65m9 [i=470aa6e2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-63a410b90e968756] has joined #lisp 23:07:26 bearlanding [n=svspire@w-albuq-9-12.7cities.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:26 DanielRM [n=danielrm@cpc1-grim8-0-0-cust625.nott.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:47 Is minion open-source? 23:08:16 benny [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:08:28 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:41 daniel: yes, see the examples shipped with cl-irc 23:08:56 minion: are you open-source? 23:08:56 maybe 23:09:00 kpreid: thanks. 23:09:20 I want to play with him but I'm conscious that people get annoyed if you do that. 23:09:27 Even in /msgs. 23:09:40 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.215.213] has joined #lisp 23:11:45 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:22 kenxo [n=kentilto@ool-18bb7ae5.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:19 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:18 DanielRM: why'd they get annoyed by your /msgs? 23:19:56 mathrick: waste of bandwidth I suppose. Not sure if whoever hosts minion here is so bothered, but it would be rude to do it without asking. 23:20:05 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:20:52 DanielRM: I can't think of a way to generate any significant bandwidth with minion, unless you do something terribly stupid and abusive 23:21:02 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 23:22:06 mathrick: I agree, but meh. There could be other reasons I've not thought of - I just know that the hosters of most bots I've played with would rather I didn't. 23:22:17 would it punish him if he did? :) 23:23:36 rsynnott: well, we all know minion is fond of being sarky... 23:25:01 minion: Is it ok to play with you? 23:25:02 no 23:25:07 Well there you have it. 23:25:17 ... 23:25:18 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 23:25:19 I love that bot. 23:25:33 Minion is better at the turing test than many non-bots that I've met on IRC> 23:26:10 The amount of effort put into minion is astonishing. 23:26:26 I bet his code was a real labour of love, as it were. 23:27:11 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.247.196.192] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:34:49 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:49 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:26 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:42:54 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:54 DanielRM: i think more effort would go into the minion knowledge database than the code that drives it 23:44:21 fusss: still a labour of love wherever it's directed. 23:44:29 PAIP has an implementation of the eliza chatbot 23:44:41 agreed, minion is good 23:45:27 minion: chant 23:45:27 MORE EFFORT 23:45:30 :) 23:45:54 minion: I love you. 23:45:55 well, i don't think i love you though 23:45:59 D: 23:46:10 -!- H4ns [n=hans@mb20736d0.tmodns.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:48:00 So I'm sitting here with the clsql + sqlite3 and it seems I need to implement regexp matching in sqlite3. Has anyone done this with the clsql? Is it doable? 23:48:16 invisible strings != AI DanielRM :-P 23:48:24 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:48:37 fusss: well MEH. :P 23:49:19 schme_: if you're in a hurry, you can fetch all rows and filter the output with cl-ppcre 23:49:23 From what I understand I somehow need to register a function here. 23:49:44 fusss: That sounds slower though? 23:49:45 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:59 Also last time I tried fetching all rows I ran out of heap. 23:50:01 :) 23:50:30 yeah :-) 23:50:41 fusss: What I want is the "select * from bla where foo regex "bananas" 23:51:00 Buuut.. I need to create the function and register it with sqlite. I can't find anything in clsql about it. 23:51:39 Hrm. Maybe I should look at the sqlite bindings. 23:51:45 oh 23:51:50 only works on lispworks 23:52:14 and one for clisp. 23:52:20 what badness. 23:54:49 schme_: does sqllite support regexes? 23:55:30 rsynnott: "yes". The documentation says the way it is supported is that you create a regexp matcher yerself and register that function in sqlite3. 23:55:57 Easily done with the java or python. ;) 23:57:09 It doesn't seem like clsql lets me do it though.