00:01:04 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:29 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:02:30 arrr. a billion monkeys upon you all. 00:02:30 hefner, memo from gigamonkey`: See also "TDOP in < 100 words of Lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70284 00:03:31 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:37 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.100.54] has quit [Client Quit] 00:04:19 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 00:05:25 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:57 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["My damn controlling terminal disappeared!"] 00:07:02 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 00:08:08 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [] 00:11:20 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:11:50 slyrus___ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:52 -!- slyrus___ is now known as slyrus_ 00:12:06 timchen119 [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 00:12:27 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:12:51 jolby [n=joel@c-24-18-75-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:02 Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 00:13:18 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["leaving"] 00:13:33 Aisling: i was looking for something like (dribble "filename") and i don't think the book has any thing about dribble function 00:14:46 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:18:26 So this is more for a session log than for redirecting the output of some function? 00:19:24 EtFb [n=etfb@203.22.236.8] has joined #lisp 00:19:28 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-130-125.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:20:36 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:21:32 -!- zzf256 [n=user@77.118.190.152.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:45 hey, hefner. I guess you saw that memo coming. 00:24:04 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:25:37 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 00:27:40 -!- Mynch [i=Mynch@ns150a.studby.ntnu.no] has quit [] 00:31:21 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C8FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:31:39 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C8FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:04 mattrepl- [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:12 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:14 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 00:36:23 hello there, gigamonkey 00:36:56 code is more clear than prose, I think 00:37:05 well, it has to be, I guess. 00:37:50 in an absolute sense, yes. 00:38:48 You noticed the annotation too, right? 00:40:31 I did. Developing a new surface syntax? =p 00:40:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41:43 Not really. I wanted to play around with TDOP and see what it would be like to add macros to a language like Javascript. 00:41:53 -!- defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ce87efb9628d27d1] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:42:02 marvil07 [n=marvil07@64.76.110.180] has joined #lisp 00:42:24 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 00:43:02 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:43:48 I0m a newbie on lisp interface with C 00:44:01 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@61.149.70.77] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:44:14 I'm reading some of festival code 00:45:06 and I really do not know what LISP type means.. 00:46:16 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 00:46:21 I really don't know if it represents a typedef inside festival code(I've searhed there without luck) 00:46:21 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:24 defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-05d5ce34a08c1dad] has joined #lisp 00:46:25 -!- Praveen [n=chatzill@c-69-253-237-19.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 00:46:38 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-230-35-86.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:53 marvil07: what is this "festival" of which you speak? 00:47:55 marvil07: festival uses scheme, and this channel is more about common lisp 00:48:01 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-65-119.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:48:11 but fear not, for #scheme abounds with schemers 00:49:23 *hefner* wondered how extensively or for what scheme was used in festival, but never enough to investigate 00:49:44 oh.. 00:50:03 Festival the speech synthesis system? 00:50:08 yes 00:50:45 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:50:58 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.220.126] has joined #lisp 00:52:18 ok 00:52:28 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.211.141] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:52:37 thanks stassats` & gigamonkey 00:53:37 <_deepfire> hefner, AFAIK SIOD 00:54:56 heh. "for what", not "what". I wonder what they use it for. Just on the surface to command its rusty innards, or is there interesting bits of it written in scheme? Although what scheme it uses is a fine question too. 00:58:39 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:04:10 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-15-185.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:16 jlilly [n=user@cpe-098-025-176-046.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:08:31 hefner: The Scheme implementation it uses is siod. 01:08:44 oh. glad to have cleared that up, then. 01:10:08 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:15 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcs228.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 01:11:55 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:16:55 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:16:56 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C8FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:17:59 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-139.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 01:20:41 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:24 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a18-101.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:27 crod [n=cmell@cb8a6f-220.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:25:46 was it Asterisk that has a Lispy scripting language? or maybe nagios? 01:29:59 assuming I have repl open, how can I get help / documentation on a given function/macro/etc 01:30:07 ie: I want to view the help on setf vs setq 01:30:20 clhs setf 01:30:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_setf.htm 01:30:36 stassats`: well.. the issue isn't finding the docs.. I can do that w/ google. 01:30:42 jlilly: use slime and C-c C-d h 01:30:42 Is it not available from repl? 01:30:55 exactly what I'm looking for thx :) 01:32:49 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-230-35-86.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:33:10 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-230-35-86.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:15 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-34.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:14 hefner annotated #70284 with "hmm" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70284#2 01:39:06 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-184.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:40:02 jlilly: You might be interested in the DESCRIBE and DOCUMENTATION functions. 01:41:15 nyef: odd. describe works but gives very little information and documentation drops me to a debugger 01:41:31 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcs228.osnanet.de] has quit ["http://github.com/bakkdoor/rswing/"] 01:43:36 jlilly: like (documentation 'setf 'function) 01:44:44 thx :) 01:45:16 it is only useful if you are looking for the documentation for third-party functions 01:45:35 for difference between setf/setq it always better to use clhs 01:45:39 okay.. so I just got a style warning.. and 2 warnings.. it looks like: [+] Style Warnings (1) 01:45:47 how do I open that dropdown? 01:46:01 enter? 01:46:15 ahh. yep. :) 01:46:23 this is all very new. just on pg 30 of Practical Common Lisp 01:47:53 *madnificent* whishes he was jlilly right now 01:48:24 frosty00014 [n=Frostysn@c-76-115-11-91.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:48 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:16 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 01:52:53 madnificent: hah. whyso? 01:53:26 now I'm not coding lisp and I'm more and more understanding what I'm missing... 01:53:27 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-0ce065f743c964f4] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:51 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:56:36 haha. I code python regularly. Hoping to learn some new concepts :) 01:57:25 perhaps I should learn python as a next language 01:57:52 I like it. Feels like pseudo code that works :) 01:57:53 funny thing, I resisted injecting a comment about moving from CL to Python 01:58:28 (seeing as Python bashing is redundant and predictable around these parts :) 01:58:30 hefner: Can we call that "norviging"? 01:58:54 ahh. anti-python folks? A lot of people have issues with the whitespace. 01:58:59 hefner: python is somewhat accepted, no? I mostly code ruby (but even then, I'm longing for lisp) 01:59:27 I do find it hard to discover what is in the lisp spec 01:59:57 I like Python's whitespace, but I hate the object system and lack of functional programming facilities 02:00:30 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a6f-220.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:42 crod [n=cmell@cb8a69-195.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:01:20 y'know, PAIP contains a remark that creates a sense of irony in the context of nowadays, although Norvig referred to Prolog's syntax 02:01:50 "Personally, I prefer a language like Lisp, where the parentheses make constructs like loops explicit and indentation can be done automatically." - Peter Norvig, "Paradigms of AI Programming" 02:02:30 Preferences can change over time. 02:02:40 of course 02:02:50 I'm fairly sure that at one point I preferred using macs, for example. 02:03:56 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:03:56 And then they came out with system 7, and it was all over... 02:04:44 System 7 is your Mac OS Vista? 02:04:45 Does anyone find it strange that Winston & Horn is the #3 most popular Lisp book at Amazon. Not that it's not a good book but it's somewhat dated, no? 02:05:02 gigamonkey`: The 3rd edition isn't that old, actually. 02:05:14 it's got a catchy title 02:05:51 nyef: Only 19 years. 02:06:00 gigamonkey`: you're on nr1? 02:06:21 Nah. SICP is somehow #1 and #2. 02:06:32 nyef: Unless Amazon is mislabeling things. 02:09:10 nyef: it seems the 3rd edition is not only pre-ANSI but pre-CLTL. 02:10:02 Totally a language neutral question, but if someone knows any good literature about the theory behind implementing a parser, that would be awesome. 02:10:31 Most books about compilers tend to spend and inordinate amount of time talking about parsing. 02:11:24 gigamonkey`: Yeah, I've been slowly working through the dragon book, but so far it seems pretty slanted towards generating intermediary code for compilation, rather than something a simpler interpreter could easily act upon 02:11:43 gigamonkey`: and they seem inordinately fond of autogeneration tools like lex 02:11:57 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:12:47 Terence Parr's book about ANTLR is interesting though, of course, somewhat slanted to his tool, ANTLR. 02:14:16 ANTLRworks is pretty neat 02:14:17 :> 02:15:14 *madnificent* heads to bed 02:15:16 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.194.204] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:17:39 To be honest I'm hoping for something that is tool/language neutral... pseudocode is fine... I'd like to figure out how to handroll one myself 02:19:53 Typically, if you're handrolling a parser, it's a recursive-descent parser. Unless you're parsing FORTH, then it's just a tokenizer, really... 02:21:26 -!- sputnick [n=sputnick@unaffiliated/sputnick] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:22:42 Winston and Horn 3rd ed taught me lisp. i just found out today the first lisp i used was Golden Hill CL, in 2002 :-) 02:22:51 -!- birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:23:02 birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 02:23:40 bombshelter13: if you find such a book and have a moment to drop me an email about it, let me know (peter@gigamonkeys.com). 02:24:10 I've mostly found books like the Dragon book, and then very theoretical books. 02:24:14 Parsing Techniques is free online 02:24:25 gigamonkey`: If I find one I definately will, I know I've been looking for ages. 02:24:50 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-230-35-86.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:25:02 fusss: *googles it and takes a look* 02:25:27 Yeah, I think I had seen Parsing Techniques some time ago. Thanks for the reminder. 02:25:29 -!- birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has quit [Client Quit] 02:27:45 best parsing books are found under Natural Language Processing actually, not "Compilers" 02:28:28 michaelw: try now 02:28:51 apparently the CGI part of my hunchentoot server is even less reliable than the hunchentoot server itself 02:32:00 *slyrus* needs to parse SMILES strings 02:32:36 What sort of lisp books does the world need at this point? 02:32:52 I'm still waiting for "Impractical Common Lisp" 02:33:23 hefner: All about abusing implementation-specific extensions to do things that can be portably expressed? 02:34:10 that sounds too practical. 02:34:17 FFI bindings C++ iostreams ftw! 02:34:38 dear. god. 02:36:07 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@203.22.236.8] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 02:36:40 *fusss* thinks best "parsing" books are actually semantics texts. they teach just what to demand from your parser. (Nielson & Nielson was sweet, so was EoPLs) 02:41:26 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 02:41:59 So is that a general "no real opinion" as to what lisp books the world needs? 02:42:37 I've ocassionally thought about a book that shows how to write compilers and interpreters in Common Lisp. But pitched not so much as a Lisp book but as one that just happens to use Lip. 02:42:37 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 02:42:39 Lisp. 02:42:58 Just because Lisp is such a great environment for doing those two things. 02:43:18 is LiSP good for that? 02:43:24 gigamonkey`: where can I pre-order it? 02:43:26 lisp in small pieces 02:43:40 stassats`: I think LiSP is a bit too much about implementing Lisp. 02:43:45 yeah, but we don't have the tools, like New Jersey Machine Toolkit or MLBURG 02:43:48 LiSP is more about the semantics and interpretation specifically of Scheme than anything else. 02:44:15 I was thinking more of something that would target folks who want to implement some arbitrary, not necessarily Lispy language. 02:44:41 Which type of sequence (or hash?) is the fastest to sort pairs of a key and a value by the keys? 02:44:42 tomoyuki28jp, memo from matimago: http://paste.lisp.org/display/70291 02:44:42 tomoyuki28jp, memo from matimago: About your cut macro, have a look at: http://paste.lisp.org/display/70291 02:45:09 So, covering writing a parser, and compiling or interpreting the result? 02:45:40 nyef. Basically. But showing how you can "compile" a language into Lisp and then let the Lisp compiler take care of the rest. 02:45:53 gigamonkey`: have you seen the Gholoum paper? something like that as a book would be sweet. 02:46:06 But also how you could write a compiler to bytecode and then write a bytecode interpreter in Lisp. 02:46:38 and then a lisp interpreter in bytecode! 02:46:45 Hmm... Makes me wish I kept logs for more of my projects. 02:46:47 And then, eventually, how to write a (simple) language to native code compiler of somesort. 02:46:56 http://scheme2006.cs.uchicago.edu/11-ghuloum.pdf 02:47:22 -!- ebzzry__ [n=rmm@124.217.85.116] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:47:51 there is more compiler lore in lisp than anything, imo 02:47:57 ndpratas [n=rnl15686@lab13p6.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 02:47:59 fusss: Ohh, I remember that paper... 02:48:13 hello guys 02:48:22 can someone help me here 02:48:23 ? 02:48:24 has anyone implemented a reasonable subset of lisp on top of scheme? 02:48:31 (of course they have) 02:49:01 I love how one can use `-' and `?' and all that in names/symbols. 02:49:22 ndpratas: No one can tell whether they can help you until you ask your actual question. 02:49:23 Unfortunately most books like that, I then realize would be more work to write and would have a smaller potential audience than PCL. 02:49:41 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:21 gigamonkey`: the magic words here are "Domain Specific Languages" 02:50:32 hefner: ftp://ftp.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/butterfly/ 02:51:18 VM implementation for dynamic languages. optimizing stack byte-code for register machines. 02:51:20 gigamonkey`: QUIZ! How would you swap the contents of two places? GO GO GO! 02:51:29 chandler: yeah. I guess that compiler one, if executed just right (which probably includes hiding the Lisp a bit more cleverly) could possibly be a big seller. 02:51:37 rotatef 02:52:03 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:52:13 gigamonkey`: And, in reality, that just, well, rotates the items (if there were, say, more than two), correct 02:52:13 Quadrescence doubts me ever since he discovered I don't really know what branch cuts are. 02:52:21 gigamonkey`: Hahah 02:52:24 darn, gigamonkey` types faster than I can peck out letters on a touchscreen :-) 02:52:28 hold on lol 02:52:35 -!- marvil07 [n=marvil07@64.76.110.180] has quit ["Abandonando"] 02:52:48 Quadrescence: yes. 02:52:59 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:20 *nyef* has the impression that branch cuts have something to do with floating-point math and trigonometric functions, but doesn't actually -care-... 02:53:25 gigamonkey`: But I don't believe you. 02:53:34 nyef: Not really. :> 02:53:55 branch cuts happens when you bicycle under short trees 02:54:08 I guess I'll be curious about them someday... Maybe next year, maybe a few years from now... 02:54:35 cltl2-section Branch Cuts, Principal Values, and Boundary Conditions in the Complex Plane 02:54:35 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node129.html 02:54:40 cmpxchg 02:54:59 nyef: Yeah, but I actually wrote something about branch cuts in PCL. 02:55:02 ok it seems i solved the problem 02:55:04 ty anyway 02:55:12 gigamonkey`: Fair enough. 02:55:15 So it's a bit more awkward that I haven't a clue what they are. 02:55:57 *chandler* likes that chapter just for the PostScript-generating code 02:56:07 of cltl2, that is 02:56:34 I sort of suspect that Common Lisp has specified branch cuts and so forth to give Steele an excuse to write that code and include a bunch of whizzy graphics in CLTL. 02:56:40 mornin' 02:56:58 gigamonkey`: sounds like a reason to me! 02:58:06 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 02:59:58 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a69-195.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:00:33 crod [n=cmell@d288be-164.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:01:29 branch cuts are where you make a semi-arbitrary choice among several perfectly reasonable values for a function to take on 03:02:24 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:03:37 What's the best way to "shuffle" a list in lisp? :o 03:03:57 What's shuffling of a list? 03:04:06 I was thinking just randomly swapping elements, by rotatef'ing random pairs 03:04:12 oh! 03:04:33 alexandria:shuffle 03:04:34 -!- beach` is now known as beach 03:04:36 But by doing that, each "call" to an element is O(n) 03:04:49 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:04:57 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:11 Quadrescence: Well lists are slow. That's why no one uses 'em ;) 03:05:17 schme: ;) 03:05:35 you don't a shuffle a list, you generate a random index upon reference :-) 03:05:38 Good morning. 03:05:58 morn beach, schme 03:06:53 Hello beach. 03:06:59 hefner: Here is the URL to the student project we discussed: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/cled-src.tar.gz 03:07:40 beach: interesting, thanks. 03:09:11 hefner: I tried to run it briefly, but I don't think I know how to use it properly. 03:09:18 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:09:54 hefner: I can type an initial paren and a symbol like LET, but then I get stuck. I shall have to look closer some other time because I'll by busy for a few days. 03:12:21 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:21 Okay, I'm gone. I might be back tomorrow. I will definately be back no later than Sunday. 03:13:35 gigamonkey pasted "Moderately efficient list shuffle" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70349 03:14:16 -!- nyef [n=nyef@70.20.50.169] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:16:17 -!- Soulman [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:16:20 jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:16:32 Soulman [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 03:16:54 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:27 Hey there's my coffee. 03:17:48 Where has it been? 03:18:29 :) Probably right here, but I have been distracted. Remarking things from TODO -> DONE. 03:19:47 org-mode? :-) 03:20:03 There wouldn't happen to be some, what does on call it... thing like dired for the mcclim? 03:20:05 Yes, the org-mode. 03:20:56 I'm very not good at organizing my code hackery, so I write lotsa TODOs in an order that seems good, then I hack code for a while and I have gotten a lot of things done, most not at all on the list, or in some other order. 03:21:02 So I have to go through it once in a while 03:21:08 yeah, the mcclim examples has a nice shell, with icons even 03:21:20 I want to sort pairs of a key and a value by the keys. Which data structure should I use? I could not find a way to sort the hash-table by its key. 03:21:22 oh cools 03:22:21 I'd like to make some mcclim thing for transfering stuff to my mp3player. gnomad2 is not so hot. I use dired for it now, but CLIM would be... sexier :) 03:22:36 tomoyuki28jp: use an alist. 03:22:38 tomoyuki28jp: hashtable isn't continuous data-structure 03:23:06 tomoyuki28jp: by defenition, hash tables have constant access to all elements. you can use MAPHASH to iterate over the hash tables and create whatever you want on top of that 03:23:15 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:37 schme: I think splittist wrote a dired-like thing for McCLIM. 03:23:56 Oh cools. 03:24:13 It shouldn't be too hard to adapt my FFI code and the rest of it then :) 03:24:20 schme: http://jlr.freeshell.org/data/mcclim/screenshots/2007-03-27-listener-light-4.png 03:24:50 schme: it is called FTD 03:24:55 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:26:02 stumpwm will give you a repl to the lisp image it's running on. feels like open surgery in public park actually. 03:26:25 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:26:32 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 03:26:38 Also I was wondering. I have this other McCLIM thing that I started writing last year, and it turns out that what I need to do is have the nice CLIM displaying stuff, but it also needs to read stuff from an internet server far off and have that displayed too. I couldn't quite figure out a nice way to have that work out so well. Iended up having one McCLIM thread, and one network reading thread. 03:26:39 beach: stassats`: fusss: So either way, I have to access to all the elements, is that correct? I was thinking if there is a way to keep sorted keys on memory, it will fast. 03:26:44 Is there some nicer way around this? 03:26:59 fusss: That's great. I think I stopped using stumpwm a year ago or something. 03:27:10 tomoyuki28jp: no, hash table access is constant (at least theoretically) 03:27:18 Hoh. I guess beirc must do something of the same. 03:27:21 hmm 03:27:22 tomoyuki28jp: there are other data structures for maintaining key/value pairs in sorted order. None of them are built into Common Lisp. 03:28:07 simplest way: (sort '((1 . 2) (3 . 4) (5 . 6)) #'> :key #'car) 03:28:15 fusss: That listener looks great :) 03:28:31 a good start anyway. 03:28:33 heh 03:28:48 tomoyuki28jp: first you said you wanted to sort them, which requires accessing all element, but then you changed your mind and said you wanted to "keep them sorted", which is a very different problem and is better handled by some kind of tree. 03:29:16 schme: if you want to do a GUI in a single threaded lisp, you will have to accept the fact that a socket read might block and render your GUI unresponsive, however briefly. 03:29:23 tomoyuki28jp: e.g. Red-Black trees. 03:29:36 fusss: Of course. 03:30:39 I don't buy that. You ought to be able to multiplex IO, including the GUI. 03:30:48 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:10 beach: My explanation wasn't good. Here is what I really want to do: Create list of data which have unique-ID, value and created time. And I want to delete the data when it expires. (certain time passed after creating it) 03:31:15 (not that mcclim helps you do that) 03:31:15 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:31:52 tomoyuki28jp: Is the amount of time always the same? 03:31:53 you could call out to non-blocking IO with FFI, setup fancy signals and wakeup timers. sure :-) 03:32:10 tomoyuki28jp: you might want to check out a priority queue then. 03:32:17 If so, then the order you delete is the same as the order you create. 03:32:18 gigamonkey`: yes 03:32:27 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 03:32:49 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 03:33:00 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.202.1] has joined #lisp 03:33:09 So keep a hold of the tail of a list and add items there as they are created. 03:33:18 And the point is I want to access the value by the id (to get the value) and the time (to delete it). 03:33:21 fusss: all io involves the ffi at some point, and signals shouldn't be necessary. 03:33:34 tomoyuki28jp: I think you want two data structures. 03:33:56 gigamonkey`: yes, I was thinking so. 03:34:00 does anyone know where i can get a letter or list of letters online with digital signatures I can extract from it? I've been googling for something this simple, but ironically I haven't found any. I just want to cut it out of a document. 03:34:01 A list or vector in the order you create the things and a hash table keyed by ID. 03:34:38 Then you just need to abstract it properly so you add and remove things to/from both data structures consistently. 03:34:41 hefner: it might depend on the lisp implementation as well. lambda-gtk kills CLISP if my GUI crashes, but single threaded sbcl on win32 is able to recover just fine. 03:36:21 fusss a socket read doesnt have to block 03:36:32 you can use non-blocking operations 03:36:51 all my lisp server stuff is single threaded 03:37:25 it's not "my" stuff that blocks, just s-xml-rpc :-) god have i lost sleep over that one. 03:37:56 brb nicotine hit 03:38:31 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 03:44:56 -!- ndpratas [n=rnl15686@lab13p6.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:49:18 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:49:43 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:15 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:45 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:59:05 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:13 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:03:24 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:05:49 I found the FTD. 04:06:04 sch 04:06:08 oops 04:06:16 schme: it migh have suffered some bitrot. 04:06:36 That's ok. 04:06:45 Seems better than going from nothing. 04:07:07 I'll bookmark this. I don't want to start a new project before this other thing is done :) 04:07:36 Sure. You could also check the state of it with splittist once he shows up. 04:08:26 "If there is any real interest I'll set up a proper project." 04:08:29 Good idea that. 04:08:46 I really just want it to simplify my loading of the mp3 player :) 04:09:18 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:13:02 nside [n=nside@bas1-quebec14-1128687045.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:13:19 hello 04:13:44 hello nside 04:13:52 i'm trying to understand what # does in common lisp 04:14:06 It does (function ...) 04:14:16 schme: nope 04:14:18 Well #' does. 04:14:22 nevermind. 04:14:22 it defines a function? 04:14:33 clhs #' 04:14:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm 04:14:47 beach: I had a smudge on the screen, and I saw there was no ' when I hit return and the text moved .) 04:14:48 nside: did you mean #' or just #? 04:15:17 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:35 nside: #' is a reader macro character, that will execute some code to read the next form and return (function form) instead. 04:15:55 http://www.cliki.net/HT-AJAX <-- would anyone happen to know where I can get me sum of this? 04:16:12 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:14 i'd like to know what it is so that i can look for it, at least :) 04:16:14 <-- 0 lisp knowledge 04:16:17 beach: that's a good question 04:16:19 let me check 04:16:21 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 04:16:34 nside: # is a "dispatching macro character, meaning, the reader will read another character and decide what to execute based on the next one. 04:16:45 nside you should read the appropriate chapter on read-macros in practical common lisp 04:17:02 ah, a macro 04:17:05 thanks 04:17:23 i'm trying to get a lisp library compiled to erlang 04:17:25 reader macro 04:17:37 woah 04:17:46 There's a CL -> erlang compiler= 04:17:47 ? 04:18:06 and the support the macros isn't built-in in the compiler, i think (it's LFE http://forum.trapexit.org/viewtopic.php?p=43887 ) 04:18:10 not that i know of 04:18:21 lfe is not cl -> erlang 04:18:29 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 04:18:30 its erlang with lisp syntax and some semantics 04:18:57 erlang with lisp syntax... I can't imagine why :S 04:19:23 macros can be handy for starters 04:19:37 but i prefer the prolog inspired syntax myself 04:20:07 it compiles the general problem solver in erlang bytecode 04:20:07 i guess it works on a subset of lisp 04:20:14 i'm just trying to compile http://www.cliki.net/spatial-trees and use it from erlang 04:20:31 i guess i'll have to port the lib 04:21:16 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 04:21:18 thanks for your help guys :) 04:21:29 best of luck 04:21:37 hehe 04:23:21 I have a class allocation variable, is there a way to access that without needing an instance of an object? 04:23:22 would it be reasonable for compiler to signal a warning here: (defun foo () (reduce #'listp '(1 2 3))) ? 04:23:48 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:24:32 class-prototype? 04:26:06 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:26:39 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 04:27:21 What argument does it take? 04:27:38 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:27:50 something like that (untested) (slot-value (class-prototype (find-class 'my-class)) 'class-variable) 04:27:58 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 04:28:21 ooh, okay 04:28:46 class-prototype is mop, but should be fairly portable, and i'm not sure about finalization 04:28:52 perfect, thank you! 04:28:57 np 04:29:01 I've got it available in sbcl 04:29:36 -!- jlilly [n=user@cpe-098-025-176-046.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:30:36 another question: is there an easy way to generate an "expanded" version of my lisp code (without the macros (and the #))? 04:30:40 sbcl also has the sacrificial save-lisp-and-die, but that doesn't make it portable :-P 04:30:53 nside: macroexpand-1 04:31:36 one step expansion, or macroexpand for the gory details 04:31:54 nice 04:32:18 nside: the reader macro characters will no longer be present once the code is in AST form. 04:34:18 jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 04:35:00 xristos: is there stuff about reader macros in PCL? I thought that was one topic I skipped. 04:37:19 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:50 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:39:12 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [K-lined] 04:39:21 nside: Is your compiler written in Lisp? 04:39:36 beach: written in erlang 04:40:02 but i'll just write a small lisp script that outputs the ast form, as you said 04:40:21 nside: well, normally that small script would be the Lisp PRINT function. 04:40:34 ! 04:40:47 nside: however, the Lisp PRINTer often re-inserts some of the reader macro characters. 04:41:20 nside: like, if PRINT sees (quote x), it will usually print it as 'x instead. 04:41:42 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.202.1] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 04:41:57 nside: and if it sees (function x), it will usually print it as #'x 04:42:01 so i can do that from the shell 04:42:01 let me try 04:42:04 is there a way to force (quote x) 04:42:49 I don't know. 04:43:21 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 04:43:36 Hmmm. There should be a *printtable* that maps back from the *readtable*. 04:44:06 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:44:27 ok 04:44:39 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:45 Also, you will have a problem with literal data of other types, like if your code contains a literal array, it will be printed with using reader macro characters. 04:44:47 nside: In case it wasn't clear, that was me musing--there is no such thing. 04:45:29 "with using"? I should go back to preparing my lecture. 04:45:38 oh 04:47:18 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:52:33 jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 04:53:19 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:51 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:56:02 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:19 chavo_: From MN I see. :o 04:57:15 jlilly [n=user@cpe-098-025-176-046.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:57:36 tmh [n=thomas@d8-183.rb4.clm.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:18 -!- tmh [n=thomas@d8-183.rb4.clm.centurytel.net] has left #lisp 05:00:14 Quadrescence: yes 05:00:51 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-34.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:00:54 -!- crod [n=cmell@d288be-164.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:01:03 gaah, hate generating test data for databases :-P 05:01:11 crod [n=cmell@cb8aa0-077.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:01:39 you know, it's not a good sign when the first actual command you do in a tutorial for some library doesn't work 05:02:29 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:47 which one is that ? 05:03:04 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["bye bye"] 05:03:34 weblocks 05:03:48 ahhh, fun stuff there 05:04:50 i don't want continuations, just MVC and scaffolding generation. cakephp style. 05:05:17 the defwebapp function seems broken :P 05:05:53 i thought def* macros were for frequently used stuff 05:06:06 it's a function 05:07:30 (publish (make-instance 'webapp :root (make-pathname .) ...) ...) might have been better? 05:08:20 *fusss* had the fun of editing a running aserve app and forgetting to make the changes back to the source 05:10:04 -!- mattrepl- [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:10:35 freelab_ [n=freelab@218.20.42.155] has joined #lisp 05:14:45 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.220.126] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:14:59 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:15:23 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:15:57 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 05:16:07 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0B39.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:16:14 jtoy [n=jtoy@218.20.42.155] has joined #lisp 05:19:30 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.174.161] has joined #lisp 05:20:45 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D6AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:28 segv [n=mb@p4FC1DF5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:07 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:45 I'm writing lithp code that is working. :O :O :O 05:28:29 -!- freelab [n=freelab@58.61.220.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:12 nice 05:33:00 hey 05:34:03 is there a function that will take in a list, '((((1 2 3 4)))), and return '(1 2 3 4)? 05:34:51 keram: There is such a function. Whether it has been implemented, who knows. 05:36:00 keram search for flatten 05:36:06 or wirte it yourself 05:36:22 or use caaar 05:36:46 Also, you probably need to define the behavior more specifically--what happens if it gets, say, '((((1 (2 3 4))))). Or '(((((1) 2 3 4)))) 05:37:06 hmm thats true 05:37:26 When it reaches the first list containing an atom 05:37:29 that becomes the final list 05:37:30 :D 05:37:50 keram: there's also flatten, which is a pretty common macro 05:37:57 keram: oh wait, they already mentioned it. 05:38:01 *sykopomp* goes back to his hole. 05:38:04 :P 05:38:06 OR when it reaches a list with >1 list. :o 05:40:24 i usually just use flatten 05:41:06 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:35 nite all 05:42:36 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 05:43:01 Err, how do you construct a list of N elements? 05:43:23 (loop repeat N collect 'whatever) 05:43:28 Is one way. 05:43:31 make-list? 05:44:02 I guess make-list too. 05:44:03 Yeah\ 05:44:29 Though beware that (make-list 10 :initial-element (make-instance 'foo)) will give you a list of 10 of the same object. 05:44:40 Which may or may not be what you want. 05:44:42 yup 05:44:48 anyone know a good reference comparing CL to Clojure ? 05:45:05 It is. :) Just making a permutation inversion function, so, I need a place for the inverse to be. :> 05:45:09 (or, say, scheme) 05:45:18 Someone has written a series of blog posts translating the CL code from PCL into Clojure. 05:45:24 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 05:45:28 That's not really a referrence though. 05:45:42 gigamonkey`: That would be good enough. I'll try searching. Thanks. 05:45:58 *aja* was prepared to dislike clojure on spec. Has decided that is unfair. 05:46:19 Pip [n=pip@unaffiliated/pip] has joined #lisp 05:46:31 what is the best text editor for lisp ? 05:47:44 emacs 05:48:39 gigamonkey`: Found it. Yeah, that's the sort of thing I'm looking for. Thanks, again. 05:48:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:18 Pip: "What's the best text editor for X?" tends to produce the same answer from a given person for X. However, for CL, Slime gives emacs a huge leg up on the competition. 05:50:20 No problem. 05:50:49 thanks, I was here 2 months ago 05:50:52 s/X/a wide range of values for X in my last.<--Pip 05:51:10 keram: also, what do you want for '((((1) (2) (3) (4)))) 05:52:59 i realized that it would be more useful to construct a function that returns t if the input list is of the form '((((1 2)))), and nil otherwise 05:53:45 so that would just return nil 05:54:20 keram: and what is the definition of "if the form ..."? 05:54:37 s/if/of/ I think. 05:54:45 right, of 05:55:05 keram: unless you define that, this will work: (eql list '((((1 2))))) 05:55:35 if the cdr is not nil, return nil, otherwise return (func (car L)), if L is nil return t 05:55:45 keram: the other thing to ask is, why do you have these lists that are in this messed up form that you want to get rid of? 05:57:25 gigamonkey, thats a good question... maybe i'm going about it the wrong way 05:58:32 My permutation routines are going so smoothly in lisp. :D 06:01:13 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 06:03:42 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:03:56 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.174.161] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 06:13:03 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 06:15:57 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 06:20:03 slurping data from the 'net and (some) parsing of (hopefully well-formed) HTML, what's the best tool(s) for that? 06:20:54 closure-html? 06:21:36 haven't used it myself 06:22:42 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["restart"] 06:30:35 I've been using xmls to write out to html, heh 06:31:02 ausente [n=id@201-68-170-64.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 06:32:47 -!- esdentem [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 06:33:49 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:36:14 mikael [n=woha@c-7642e353.027-10-67766c2.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 06:54:57 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2E928.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:59:45 danlei [n=user@pD9E2E928.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:15 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 07:02:21 -!- gigamonkey` [n=user@adsl-99-50-124-24.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:45 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:05:40 stassats`, ah yes, thanks. 07:05:49 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:05:56 hey mikael. 07:06:41 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 07:06:56 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.178.194] has joined #lisp 07:07:30 i just wrote a one liner to print hello to stdout, and run it with the shebang (sbcl) 07:07:41 however it displays hello% 07:07:53 why is it printing "%"?? 07:08:02 because you told it to? code! 07:08:10 did you forget a ~? 07:08:38 (format t "hello") 07:09:05 beach: is the ~ necessary here ? 07:09:28 binarycodes, ~% emits newline. thought you had (format t "hello%") 07:09:30 try adding a ~% to the format string, or (terpri) after the format 07:09:57 ok 07:10:35 danlei: thanks ~% worked 07:10:52 so i need to give the newline explicitly 07:11:02 that is a shell issue, btw 07:11:16 oh 07:11:54 binarycodes: try echo -n hello 07:12:19 Hello tic! Trying to figure out who you are, not making any progress... 07:12:42 mikael, oh, nobody in particular. We just share first names. 07:12:58 danlei: right you are !! 07:13:07 its the problem with zsh 07:13:13 bash works fine 07:13:49 binarycodes: well, not a problem per se, just add the newline, and you're fine 07:13:59 yes :) 07:16:47 tic: Oh, I was imagining a kind of friend-or-acquaintance-as-crypto-Lisp-weenie-type situation. :-) Where in Sweden are you? 07:18:54 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:20:56 With hunchentoot, how would I serve up pages and binary files? 07:20:56 milanj [n=milan@77.46.250.100] has joined #lisp 07:21:07 -!- freelab_ [n=freelab@218.20.42.155] has quit [Client Quit] 07:21:10 I need to give a javascript file, html file, and a flash object 07:21:36 Draggor: did you check the documentation? 07:21:51 mikael, most likely not. Göteborg! You? 07:22:32 I see handle-static-file 07:22:38 I think that's what I want 07:23:18 Though I'm not entirely sure 07:23:40 tic: Same! I'm in the CS program at GU. 07:23:57 mikael, nice! any ongoing Lisp projects? 07:24:44 Draggor: create-static-file-dispatcher-and-handler/create-folder-dispatcher-and-handler 07:26:10 I'm using my own dispatching, so running handle-static-file did exactly what I want 07:26:56 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.250.100] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:29:17 Sweet, it works! 07:31:44 ball [n=ball@99.151.136.129] has joined #lisp 07:31:46 it even guessed content types properly 07:32:53 I used to quite like Logo. Am I likely to like lisp? I've just read that the first Logo was written in Lisp and that there are some conceptual similarities. I'm looking for languages that are small, clean, consistent. 07:34:41 ball: lisp as a language concept is small, clean, consistent. common lisp is more practical. 07:35:03 tic, not as such, but ideas from Lisp, viz. code-as-data, S-expressions, etc., will probably be invoked at today's project meeting for Simulations of Complex Systems, being about genetic programming. 07:36:02 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.225.171] has joined #lisp 07:36:22 mikael, that sounds interesting. so you're just evaluating Common Lisp to see the suitability? what are you going to simulate, specifically? (if decided) 07:36:26 H4ns: does that mean there are X11 bindings for it? 07:36:36 (it could be used to write a simple X client?) 07:36:41 ball: sure. 07:37:05 ball: it is a very practical language coming straight from the cutting edge of 1990 07:37:22 The sarcasm is thick... 07:37:39 ball: the fact that it is still quite nice might tell you something about how much has happened in the industry since then :p 07:37:47 tic: ^ 07:38:09 H4ns, *nod* very good point. 07:38:23 ball: no, seriously, there are contemporary libraries for common lisp, too. 07:38:33 Languages are _now_ considering generic functions and multimethods. That's funny. 07:40:36 beach, about your effort to gather libraries. I think it's a good idea the more I think of it. Libraries are spread out all around (although a lot are found on c-l.net), but it's generally hard to know which is the latest release of library Foo1, Foo2, ... that does Bar for you. Or maybe I just don't know how to look. (thinking of CheeseShop, the Python equivalent) 07:41:11 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:29 Is Scheme related to Lisp? 07:41:47 ball: it is a lisp, although some common lispers dispute that 07:42:01 it is /a/ lisp, but differs significantly from cl 07:42:05 ball: Yes. See Lisp-1 vs. Lisp-2. I'm sure wikipedia has a page. 07:42:10 -!- ausente [n=id@201-68-170-64.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [] 07:42:22 H4ns: There's actually peolpe who argue that scheme isn't 'a' lisp? 07:42:25 ball: it does not have a very large standard, so you'll soon have to chose one of the implementations and stick with it. 07:42:26 :| 07:42:51 Technical discussion on Lisp-1 vs Lisp-N: http://www.dreamsongs.com/Separation.html 07:43:37 sykopomp, schemers themselves, obviously, or c.l.s would be named differently? But then there's the actual spec that doesn't specify s-exps and atoms, but instead is specified on strings, IIRC. 07:43:52 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-239-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:56 oh 07:44:08 tic: I enjoy CL, but the rest of my team isn't familiar with it. Our goal is to evolve through genetic programming, specifically Grammatical Evolution, creatures like Reynold's `boids', that successfully avoid obstacles and gather resources. 07:44:56 ball: when discussing lisp with lispers, you'll recognize that there are a hell of a lot of fine points, which makes the culture fun and intellectually interesting (fsvo "intellectually") 07:45:03 mikael, sounds very interesting. I've been meaning to do something like that myself. Have you got a project page setup? Would be nice to be able to follow your progress. 07:47:39 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:13 tic: Not yet, we're still sketching the idea. Are you here often? I'll tell you if we get something going. 07:49:23 mikael, 24/7, please do! 07:52:38 evening 07:53:00 So, to choose between common lisp and scheme, I should try both and see which I prefer? 07:53:10 ball: you can also leave out scheme 07:53:19 ball: no, choose Common Lisp. 07:53:19 minion, tell ball about that-dead-sexy-book 07:53:26 zzf256 [n=user@77.118.13.235.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 07:53:27 ball: please look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 07:53:39 Scheme isn't really that a simple language anymore, from what I understand. 07:56:04 you can always ignore r6rs 07:57:16 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:57:52 Thanks a lot guys. 07:58:00 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:58:04 It's 01:58 here and Mrs. ball is ordering me to bed. 07:58:14 interesting fonts at planet lisp at the moment .. or is my browser about to crash? :) 07:58:21 -!- ball [n=ball@99.151.136.129] has quit ["leaving"] 07:58:30 the latter, fm. 07:58:31 lnostdal: wfm 07:58:32 wfm. 07:59:01 oh .. hm 08:00:09 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.126] has joined #lisp 08:00:20 might have been some upgrade .. never mind me 08:04:16 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 08:04:52 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-239-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:05:30 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-2791e355.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:06:37 good morning 08:09:06 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:09:21 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 08:10:02 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:12:35 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:12:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 08:13:55 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:32 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:14:52 -!- dfox_ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:18:56 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:25:02 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:26:45 -!- frosty00014 [n=Frostysn@c-76-115-11-91.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:27:11 etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:04 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.178.194] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:29:45 dfox_ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 08:30:53 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-4e599aa0f3def2d2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:31:10 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 08:34:53 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-ba17cf547f620cf4] has joined #lisp 08:38:51 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:41:37 -!- Pip [n=pip@unaffiliated/pip] has left #lisp 08:42:11 netfrog [n=gaim@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #lisp 08:43:17 -!- zzf256 [n=user@77.118.13.235.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:44:44 Dumb question, probably, but: are there any RAD tools that can use Lisp? RAD = Rapid Application Development, ie drag&drop UI design, event handlers, widgets, forms, etc. Like VIsual Basic, but without the suck. 08:45:35 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.126] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:45:36 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:45:39 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 08:47:04 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.126] has joined #lisp 08:47:13 kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has joined #lisp 08:47:28 hello lispers 08:48:46 etfb: i think someone here has mentioned once that one can use eclipse with lisp, but not sure about true he/she was. 08:50:23 inetic: Sounds promising for a start, anyhow. Thanks. 08:51:13 etfb: there is no such thing 08:51:15 -!- netfrog [n=gaim@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:51:23 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 08:51:38 H4ns: That's unsurprising. Feel like speculating on why? 08:52:00 etfb: there is not much commercial interest in lisp 08:54:50 H4ns: Ah well, it's still a very young language. Another fifty or a hundred years, it might be mature enough to catch on. One must be patient... 08:55:01 etfb: ? 08:55:22 there was somewhere a CLIM "RAD" application builder 08:55:27 H4ns: It doesn't pay to be impatient. All things come to those who wait... 08:55:30 I have never seen it, only references to it 08:55:35 etfb: ...have you even touched SLIME? 08:55:50 sykopomp: how is that related to rad? 08:56:05 sykopomp: Quite familiar with it, thanks. I had four extra thumbs grafted onto each hand to help me with keychording in Emacs. 08:56:09 RAD sounds like it wants speed and fancy editing tools 08:56:57 sykopomp: In my case, what I want is the ability to create a GUI with event handlers. That's orders of magnitude easier in languages like Delphi and... well, just Delphi really, since Visual Studio is hell. 08:57:04 etfb: also, there is indeed something for eclipse, it's called CUSP 08:57:14 rad tools usually are created for and by people who want to avoid programming. lisp is for programmers. 08:57:28 etfb: CLIM? 08:58:15 H4ns: You're letting your curmudgeonry show there. I use RAD tools, specifically Delphi, to do stuff quickly and well. Sure there are idiots using RAD tools, but there are even idiots using Lisp... granted not as many... 08:58:28 face it, people, there are no lisp rad tools and not contemporary lisp gui builder guis. it makes no sense to claim otherwise. 08:58:31 etfb: you're letting your cheekiness out a bit too much. 08:58:43 sykopomp: I never let it in! 08:58:49 etfb: that is unfortunate 08:59:02 Torvo_Sollazzo [n=Trovo_So@pradella.dei.polimi.it] has joined #lisp 08:59:36 etfb: ah, you could certainly buy allegro or lispworks, both have gui support. if i remember correctly, allegro even has something like a gui builder, but i could be wrong. 08:59:38 -!- Torvo_Sollazzo [n=Trovo_So@pradella.dei.polimi.it] has left #lisp 08:59:42 sykopomp: I apologise, but I took offense to the blanket condemnation of a useful tool. A bit like "object oriented programming is a fad, only good for first-year CS classes". 09:00:22 etfb: if you think of OOP as 'Java', I see that as true. 09:00:59 sykopomp: Indeed, and if you see homosexuals as paedophiles, you support a ban on gay marriage... 09:01:11 etfb: i'm sorry - i was misunderstanding you. you asked for a gui builder gui, as it seems. 09:01:11 sykopomp: Which is to say: if the facts are optional, opinions are easy. 09:01:57 H4ns: Yes, pretty much. 09:02:36 etfb: so, my answer still is: there is no such thing, if you are also looking for "free" and "usable" 09:03:28 Anyhow, I shall examine CUSP and CLIM, and see what there is to play with. But no, I hold no great optimism, since usability is important. There's a lot of abandonware solutions, half-written in any language you care to name... 09:03:34 Thanks all. 09:03:40 etfb: good look. 09:03:45 etfb: and: look at clojure 09:03:56 -!- pierre__thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:04:09 H4ns: Interesting! Why do you mention that? 09:04:24 etfb: because you can use java gui builders with clojure 09:04:47 H4ns: Ah! Of course! Good thinking! 09:05:06 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:05:16 Off I go to pray to Google for guidance... 09:05:17 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:05:35 -!- etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.4 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 09:05:58 -1 for my "every poor soul must made to use common lisp" karma points 09:06:15 -1 for my "english grammar" karma points, too 09:06:16 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:06:52 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has joined #lisp 09:08:04 *aerique* wishes Glade worked well with GTK-server :-( 09:08:26 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 09:08:49 Savant [n=savant@unaffiliated/Savant] has joined #lisp 09:09:12 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:13 -!- bartiosze [n=user@ejf118.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:09:42 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:09:58 elurin [n=user@85.99.194.204] has joined #lisp 09:14:03 knobo [n=bohmersp@ti0073a340-1095.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 09:14:19 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:16:25 is Gmane down for everyone, or is it just me? 09:18:11 lisppaste: url 09:18:12 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 09:18:44 H4ns pasted "sbcl bug, or is it me?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70359 09:20:00 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.85.116] has joined #lisp 09:21:15 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:22:35 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 09:22:57 H4ns, I get: "caught STYLE-WARNING: :BLUB is not a known argument keyword" (version "1.0.22") 09:23:16 inetic: which is as wrong. 09:23:26 "style warning" 09:23:37 clisp eats it up just fine 09:23:49 looks like a bug to me 09:23:58 kmkaplan annotated #70359 with "Use &allow-other-keys" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70359#1 09:24:04 kmkaplan: no. 09:24:15 kmkaplan: i specifically do not want to use &allow-other-keys 09:25:08 I do not get it. 09:25:55 kmkaplan: i do not want to allow all keys, i want to allow all keys that are allowed for the applicable methods. 09:26:26 kmkaplan: which is what the spec says will happen if the defgeneric specifies &key, but does not enumerate any keys. 09:27:19 seeing the same thing with "1.0.22.17" here .. if i separate the defgeneic and the two defmethod forms things work, i think 09:27:29 or "work" .. i mean; i do not see the warning 09:27:43 lnostdal: yes. when compiling, the warning is also not issued. 09:28:23 i think there are a couple of issues in sbcl wrt. "bootstrapping" of classes in general .. i've had trouble with contextl recently 09:29:48 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:32:47 H4ns: Ah, right I just read 7.6.4 and you seem right. 09:36:02 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:36:29 bartiosze [n=user@ejf118.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:36:35 -!- Savant [n=savant@unaffiliated/Savant] has quit ["bbiaw"] 09:36:57 clhs ~[ 09:36:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgb.htm 09:38:56 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.7.45.78] has joined #lisp 09:40:56 just wrapping parts of the defgeneric expansion (for the :method parts) in some eval-when thingies seems to help 09:41:26 netfrog [n=NetFrog@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #lisp 09:43:21 or maybe not .. it just seemed to ..:/ 09:44:34 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45703.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:35 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45703.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:48:44 lnostdal annotated #70359 with "idunno" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70359#2 09:49:44 the first one is the original expansion as sbcl already does .. in the second one i've added some eval-whens around the push-defmethod calls 09:50:05 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:50:06 maybe it creates problems in some cases .. i have no idea 09:52:35 lnostdal: thanks for looking. i was just unsure whether i was doing something wrong. 09:53:02 yeah, just playing around .. this does not seem to work though .. 09:54:02 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2CE06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:42 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.85.116] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:55:42 -!- luis [n=luis@r42.eu] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:55:42 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:55:42 -!- kpreid 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10:17:22 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-096-69.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 10:18:34 H4ns: i was too early to be happy about the darcsweb fix... :( i can't get a working commitdiff now, i've tried several repos/patches. 10:19:01 attila_lendvai: let me know if i should roll back the binary 10:19:02 H4ns: i have the darcsweb repo checked out in ~alendvai/darcsweb, it may be worth trying to update it 10:19:38 H4ns: i think it's unrelated to the binary, and it was just an accident that it worked yesterday. but i have no clue what else may influence it... 10:19:47 attila_lendvai: if it's a simple "make install", i can do it. otherwise, i can grant you write permissions to the installation directory and you can play yourself. 10:20:16 attila_lendvai: third option is to open a ticket, i might find some time to look at it later 10:20:24 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:21:49 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:22:21 attila_lendvai: i did cl-net 2_> sudo chown -R alendvai /usr/lib/cgi-bin/darcsweb 10:22:47 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-57-56.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 10:22:54 H4ns: ok, i'll try to fix it 10:23:01 attila_lendvai: thanks! 10:26:00 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:24 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:33:23 ivarrefsdal [n=ivarrefs@sos1-1x-dhcp451.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:34:11 OdinsGhost_ [n=Miranda@ip-77-24-45-147.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 10:35:02 -!- OdinsGhost_ [n=Miranda@ip-77-24-45-147.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:38:48 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:38:50 common lisp is teh rocks! 10:39:19 *H4ns* just made a big leap towards his docstring-to-xml-with-crossreferences extractor 10:39:30 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:42:17 eventually, this will become documentation-template with automatic forward annotation, i.e. you can change the docstrings and the html is automatically updated with that. docstrings need no markup other than caps for references (arguments or documented symbols) 10:42:18 wow, is there someone left who hasn't written his own documentation generation solution by now? 10:42:32 H4ns> eventually, this will become documentation-template with automatic 10:42:33 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:42:39 eek 10:42:53 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:31 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:43:37 sorry, mispasted 10:44:29 What I wanted to ask was: Did you consider taking the code from texinfo-docstrings to parse the docstring? 10:45:10 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 10:45:44 lichtblau: no. what does it do? 10:46:49 I'm not aware of a formal specification of the syntax, but it's the code from SBCL, which parses traditional CMUCL/SBCL-style docstrings. Not sure if it looks for caps, but it also handles cross-references automatically, I think. 10:47:50 nikodemus was recently researching a similar area. I think he also wanted something like texinfo-docstrings, but with HTML output instead of texinfo. 10:48:05 lichtblau: i output xml and postprocess using xsl 10:48:32 okay, so you're basically doing what atdoc does, but with a different input syntax. 10:49:22 lichtblau: right. i'm not aiming high. it is just a fun thing to do, like many other metatasks :) 10:49:36 I was still hoping we could come up with a modular approach, where there are pluggable docstring parsers returning a standardized in-memory representation. 10:49:44 nikodemus' output is visible at http://random-state.net/tmp/sb-doc/ 10:50:05 plus a serializer for that in-memory thing to XML, and various backends on top of that 10:50:21 sysfault [n=exalted@c-68-45-34-224.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:49 OdinsGhost_ [n=Miranda@ip-77-24-45-147.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 10:50:52 Here's what atdoc stylesheets generate for Plexippus, perhaps we could reuse each other's stylesheets? http://www.lichteblau.com/blubba/plexippus-docs/atdoc/ 10:51:21 I wouldn't mind having an atdoc stylesheet generating output similar to documentation-template. 10:52:38 beta-reduction [i=beta-red@213.129.54.27] has joined #lisp 10:53:05 locklace: is his code available, too? I'm curious whether he went for that CLOS representation we talked about. 10:54:08 lichtblau: i would not mind being able to use something that exists, but it does not seem as if there is anything that does what i would like to have 10:54:34 lichtblau: so i think i will just move forward with what i have for now, as i need it to document something else. 10:54:38 nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:55:16 lichtblau: not sure, that's the only link he provided 10:56:02 http://vaxbusters.org/yason.xml is what my tool generates from just the docstrings, no markup except for caps for arguments and cross references 10:56:28 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:47 -!- beta-reduction [i=beta-red@213.129.54.27] has quit [Client Quit] 10:56:51 (obviously, you need a browser that can apply the xsl style sheet to display that) 10:57:31 H4ns: certainly. I'm just pondering what a modular architecture could look like in the long term. 10:58:33 bertskert [n=Marcus@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:59:07 dalton [n=id@201-68-170-64.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 10:59:46 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.194.204] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:01:33 I want a function/macro to return an expression, like a let-expression or some other lisp code. I can define a macro, but I can't make it return the "translated" code.. how do I do that? Like: (defun f (x y) ...) (f a b) => (LET ((X A) (Y B)) ...) or something 11:02:09 bertskert: have you read something on macros? 11:02:16 bertskert: like pcl, or on lisp? 11:02:37 yeah, how to define them and use this special quoting and splicing lists and such 11:03:31 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 11:03:32 bertskert: i don't quite understand your question then. 11:04:01 bertskert: (defun transform (form) (destructuring-bind (defun name args &rest body) form `(let ,(mapcar (lambda (arg value) `(,arg ,value)) args '(a b c d e f g h)) ,@body))) (transform '(defun f (x y) (etc))) 11:04:38 -!- OdinsGhost_ [n=Miranda@ip-77-24-45-147.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:04:40 bertskert: you don't really need to use special quoting and splicing. 11:05:06 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 11:05:13 take this for an example: (defmacro my_if (condi &rest body) `(if ,condi (progn ,@body))), how can I call that macro (my_if (< 10 50) (princ 'a)) to get: (IF (< 10 50) (PRINC 'A))? 11:05:39 bertskert: (defun transform (form) (destructuring-bind (defun name args &rest body) form (append '(let) (list (mapcar (lambda (arg value) (list arg value)) args '(a b c d e f g h))) body))) ; works as well 11:05:57 bertskert: macroexpand 11:06:59 yes, macroexpanding, is that what you just did? 11:07:15 bertskert: no, I wrote a function DEFUN = DEFine a FUNction! 11:08:22 At first you said a function/macro. 11:08:38 thanks, macroexpanding was what I was looking for! 11:09:00 Good. There's also macroexpand-1 which may help in some cases. 11:09:14 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:09:16 I loce pcl =) 11:09:18 *lov 11:09:20 bertskert: you should _really_ read something about macro development 11:09:21 *love 11:09:35 bertskert: i fail to believe that pcl does not tell you how you actually develop macros. 11:09:37 ah, I'm into pcl atm 11:09:47 it does 11:09:57 anybody here did used plan 9 OS? 11:10:15 plan 9? 11:10:22 yes 11:10:25 from bell labs 11:10:26 -!- jolby [n=joel@c-24-18-75-113.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:10:28 no 11:11:10 dalton: i have used it a bit 11:11:24 stassats`: very difficult to use? 11:11:54 dalton: are you sure that this is the right channel to ask? 11:12:01 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:12:31 stassats`: sorry freak 11:12:40 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 11:12:54 stassats` do you know any channel do indicate to me? 11:13:02 it even has no common lisp implementation 11:13:04 .oO( first he asks an off topic question, then he calls a polite regular to be a "freak". what's next? ) 11:13:05 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:31 dalton: no, i don't know 11:15:07 stassats`: hold tight to your love, cause you never know 11:15:56 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:16:04 minon tell bertskert about spels 11:16:15 minon: tell bertskert about spels 11:16:22 minon: spels? 11:16:31 minion: tell bertskert about spels 11:16:31 bertskert: please look at spels: Casting SPELs in Lisp, an introduction to macros, is at http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 11:18:13 -!- Spune [n=Spune@c-69-137-224-211.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:19:59 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:20:55 lisp is not a terraquian language 11:23:26 matimago: what happened to your typing skills? 11:28:10 H4ns: could you please surround the $@ in /usr/bin/darcs with quotes like this: darcs-bin "$@" 11:28:58 attila_lendvai: done that, but are you sure that it is the right thing? 11:29:07 attila_lendvai: won't that concatenate all arguments into one? 11:29:35 H4ns: it fixed darcsweb, i hope it won't break other stuff. lemme try to push something... 11:29:38 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [] 11:30:30 H4ns: well, pushing still works, so i think we are relatively safe now 11:30:32 attila_lendvai: i think $* would be right 11:30:34 H4ns: it's a shell idiom equivalent to "$1" "$2" ... 11:30:56 *attila_lendvai* is a shell dummy and is proud of it :) 11:30:56 fe[nl]ix: "$@" is equivalent to "$1" "$2" ..? 11:31:01 yes 11:31:13 it's a syntax hack 11:31:17 fe[nl]ix: i'd not call that "idiom" 11:31:24 fe[nl]ix: yes, that's what i wanted to express :) 11:31:30 it has become an idiom :) 11:32:13 yeah. first they "forgot" to specify a filename syntax. then they invented all sorts of gross hacks to work around that. 11:32:18 gotta love unix 11:32:21 and unless you know what you're doing, you must always use "$@", not $@ or $* 11:32:25 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:32:34 otherwise you'll lose on filenames containing spaces 11:33:07 fe[nl]ix: thanks. i'll try to remember that. 11:33:56 but at least we have the latest darcsweb and darcs on cl.net... :) 11:34:12 attila_lendvai: applause! 11:34:49 H4ns: if you are interested there's a cache in the new darcsweb, but it needs a cronjob to periodically clear it... 11:35:12 attila_lendvai: should be no trouble to install 11:35:31 attila_lendvai: just supply instructions and i'll do it 11:36:32 H4ns: where should it point to? /var/cache or /tmp? create a dir for me if it's not under /tmp... 11:36:38 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:52 attila_lendvai: /tmp should be fine 11:37:36 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:37:40 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 11:37:41 H4ns: also i think /usr/lib/cgi-bin/darcsweb/config.py is generated by some script but i have no idea where it is (the change should go there)... do you have a hint? 11:37:54 attila_lendvai: sorry, no 11:38:14 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:39:32 yangsx [n=yangsx@221.218.208.120] has joined #lisp 11:42:43 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 11:47:00 H4ns: the cache seems to work fine, but the cache dir needs to be pre-created and there's that config file generation issue also, so i'll just comment out the cache for now... it's a very simple addition if someone with root wants to enable it later 11:47:32 attila_lendvai: if you can send a mail to rt@, i'll try to take care of it late 11:47:33 r 11:50:30 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 11:55:46 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:00:55 nunb [n=Nandan@213-140-17-106.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:01:14 -!- bertskert [n=Marcus@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:01:58 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-57-56.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:02:09 can anyone help me customise swank-loader on os x? 12:03:33 I get this error http://paste.lisp.org/display/70364 12:04:22 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45703.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:37 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 12:04:48 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45703.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:06:33 nevermind, got it. (setq inferior-lisp-program "/Users/..") 12:07:31 hrr4 [n=hrr4@81.90.21.226] has joined #lisp 12:10:35 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 12:13:35 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:53 Bzek_ [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-17-33.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:15:11 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-17-33.kosnet.ru] has quit ["leaving"] 12:15:37 holymoly [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 12:17:25 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host82.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:18:23 vasa [n=vasa@mm-36-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 12:18:51 Hum, okay #lisp, I am trying to make a function where the input is a list, and the output should be a list with the number of elements greater than each corresponding element to the left. 12:19:35 So, for example, (left-greater '(5 3 2 1 4)) should return (0 0 2 3 1) 12:20:10 I know I could use nested loops, but there must me a better way. :> 12:20:45 "sort" 12:20:56 or, ah. 12:21:00 Quadrescence: I'm assuming you're looking for a sweet solution, not just 'a' solution, right? 12:21:20 trivially with recursion, slightly more difficult using LOOP. :) 12:21:59 -!- jao [n=user@47.Red-79-155-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:22:38 madnificent: Yes, a sweet solution. :> 12:22:44 I'd like to see the "trivial" recursive solution, please 12:22:49 (preferably efficient, not sweet) 12:23:03 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@221.218.208.120] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:23:07 Xof, is s/trivial/easy/ better, or do you still think I'm wrong? 12:23:11 also, shouldn't the output be (0 1 2 3 1)? 12:23:23 Xof: Yes, :S 12:23:40 (I woke up some few minutes ago. :>) 12:23:53 Bummer. Misread it. Won't be easier using recursion or fold for that matter. 12:23:57 thank you 12:24:13 *tic* feels like he too just woke up. brain fog... 12:24:31 I also, after, will do the same thing, but counting less-than elements to the right. 12:24:42 less-than to the right is probably easier 12:24:45 Which seems inherently the same, and more apt for recursion. 12:25:02 Since you can use `rest' and probably recurse. 12:26:13 (defun foo (list) (loop for i upfrom 0 for x in list collect (count x list :end i :test #'<))) 12:26:39 [ not efficient ] 12:27:07 Can someone point me at a natural language precessing library? 12:27:35 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:28:33 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-187-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:28:45 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-2-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:29:08 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 12:29:20 Xof: Seems more elegant, but essentially equivalent to the nested loop, correct? 12:29:35 (i.e., manually implementing COUNT, I guess) 12:30:10 benny [n=benny@i577A0478.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:31:40 probably. I suspect it's easier to adapt to your second problem 12:32:26 Well, I'll try the second. 12:33:53 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 12:36:21 Xof: won't ...i from 0... work too? (instead of upfrom) 12:37:15 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 12:38:25 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 12:38:53 Hmm, this is still stumping me. :S 12:39:15 Mostly how to build up the list (without making a "place holder" list first). 12:39:44 (defun bar (list) (loop for i upfrom 1 for x in list collect (count x list :start i :test #'>))? 12:39:58 [ not efficient, untested ] 12:40:21 Xof: I saw that. :) I will put it in my source. Nonetheless, I am trying to do a recursive version too. 12:41:06 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Client Quit] 12:41:24 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:41:27 (Or, at least, I saw your other version) 12:44:03 -!- netfrog [n=NetFrog@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:44:37 Hm, I think passing an optional argument defaulted to NIL should work sexily. :o 12:47:20 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:48:24 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 12:49:57 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DE9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:59 minion: chant to Quadrescence 12:49:59 Quadrescence: MORE ELEGANT 12:50:09 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1DF5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["quit"] 12:50:26 locklace: Hehe. 12:50:31 I think it's pretty elegant. :> 12:51:41 bertskert [n=Marcus@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:51:49 segv [n=mb@p4FC1DF5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:21 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:29 locklace: nevermind. 12:53:41 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:55:53 Xof: I'll go with your solution for now. It is nice and clean, and it's not like the lists are 10000 elements long. :> 12:57:11 Anyone had a problem compiling hunchentoot on OS X? 13:00:37 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8aa0-077.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:02:03 http://www.newartisans.com/blog_files/tag-hunchentoot.php | http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/tbnl-devel/2006-October/000761.html | http://coding.derkeiler.com/pdf/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2007-11/msg00040.pdf 13:05:06 -!- sysfault [n=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:08:33 Xof: By the way, your first and second ones worked. For your second one, I did do UPFROM 0 and not UPFROM 1, which, both should work -- in fact, UPFROM 1 is obviously slightly more efficient. :> 13:10:15 -!- e271 [i=[1Xmizzn@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:10:41 dalton: Thanks! my search didn't turn up those links. anyway sbcl complained about port-sbcl.fasl and then stopped complaining.. 13:11:27 while I'm at it: has anyone got ReadyLisp from New Artisans working with an updated sbcl? 13:14:05 crod [n=cmell@cb8aa0-077.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:15:36 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:16:27 Has anyone seen this before? http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~meidanis/courses/mc336/2006s2/funcional/L-99_Ninety-Nine_Lisp_Problems.html 13:16:29 :) 13:18:08 I might do those problems just to do them. 13:18:42 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:18:45 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:08 Everything after problem 45 seems to be Prolog :( 13:20:57 spiaggia: at work, I don't have the same DasKeyboard III as at home :-) (What a nice keyboard, the DasKeyboard III, after a few hours of use, I couldn't even touch the DasKeyboard II). 13:22:16 mogunus: there's Morphix-NLP, a whole Linux distribution filled of NLP tools. 13:23:03 s/of/with/ 13:23:13 -!- mbac [i=[lXoZx3U@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:13 well g'day 13:28:07 I guess getting the first element of a list is always O(1). :> 13:28:37 Supposedly 13:28:49 neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has joined #lisp 13:28:58 Good day to you schme. 13:30:21 Yes.. It is. 13:30:24 -!- H4ns [n=hans@70.91.193.41] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:31:21 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 13:31:24 H4ns [n=hans@70.91.193.41] has joined #lisp 13:31:24 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:30 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:34 prxq [n=mommer@X8e85.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:43 hi 13:33:00 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8aa0-077.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:33:03 lichtblau: i've got an error during load-op of xuriella .... 13:33:44 lichtblau: i ve install cxml from git 13:33:51 lichtblau: http://paste.lisp.org/display/70369 13:33:55 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:34:17 Hum, now to try to convert a list of cycles to the permutation it represents. :o 13:34:30 lichtblau: any idea about this problem ? 13:36:22 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:52 zzf256 [n=user@77.118.13.235.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 13:37:53 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc49.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:37:58 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:38:58 I want to make some kind of 'proxy' class, so that every generic function with an object of that class is called with another object instead 13:39:26 It's rather hard to do that. 13:39:30 after an hour in the company of the amop book, I started thinking maybe it was a bit too complex to be worth it 13:39:35 merde 13:39:37 Because in CLOS, methods are not attached to classes, but to generic functions. 13:39:48 yeah 13:39:59 maybe with custom method combinators etc 13:40:17 but the problem is that it has to fit in an existing hierarchy/generic functions 13:40:45 okay lets say you have this pattern: 'cached' objects 13:41:06 you hold an object, but it's actually cached in some hash table somewhere 13:41:29 but you want to reuse all the methods that use/specialize this object 13:41:32 yvdriess: moreover there's the problem of multiple-dispatch. 13:41:51 how would one go about implement something like that 13:42:15 yvdriess: but anyways, this is something that would have to be done at the level of generic functions. If there's a MOP hook to deal with dispatching, you could detect that the concerned class is involved, and then see if you can send the message to another object instead. 13:42:29 yeah 13:42:56 but it's quite difficult to intersect at that level 13:43:46 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:43:51 perhaps something involving compute-effective-method 13:43:56 yvdriess, what problam are you trying to solve? 13:44:08 tic: cached object type of problem 13:44:19 It's similar to proxy objects. 13:44:22 crod [n=cmell@cb8a61-232.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:45:36 Good afternoon. 13:47:04 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 13:47:28 yvdriess: on the other hand, it seems you don't need it dynamically, that you can preprocess an existing set of generic functions, and add the methods you need for your proxy class. Then it's easy: scan all the generic functions, and add a method for your class to do the forwarding. You may not care if there is a method effectively for the concrete class. 13:47:55 hello beach 13:47:56 -!- dalton [n=id@201-68-170-64.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 13:48:13 guikinho [n=id@201-68-170-64.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:48:19 hm, so use some kind of inspection to collect all methods acting on the real object 13:48:47 Yes. 13:49:19 But there's little consequence if you define on your proxy class methods that don't exist for your concrete class. 13:49:45 You keep forwarding them, and then detect an error (or do the process defined for the type T). 13:50:20 H4ns1 [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:13 -!- H4ns [n=hans@70.91.193.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:51:23 hm, there is an added problem 13:51:44 the class I'm proxying is actually a hierarchy 13:51:50 dalton [n=id@200-100-8-241.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:51:58 It doesn't really matter. 13:52:07 Again, the base is not the class, but the generic function. 13:52:08 I could just do multiple inheritance, but how do I ensure that my duct-taped methods will be the most specific 13:52:25 The proxying method you define on your proxy class doesn't care what the concrete class is. 13:52:27 dcl [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 13:52:39 They don't need to be specific at all. 13:53:03 ah yes, I see now 13:53:35 For example (defgeneric m (x)) (defclass c () ()) (defclass p () ((c :initarg :c :accessor c))) --> (defmethod m ((self p)) (m (c p))) is all you need. 13:54:56 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.7.45.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:01 dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:33 (defgeneric md (a b c)) might be more difficult. You could generate three methods, with the proxy in each position and T for the rest of the arguments. 13:55:49 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.13.65] has joined #lisp 13:56:43 -!- guikinho [n=id@201-68-170-64.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:57:21 *ksergio* stretches 13:59:05 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:59:14 yeah, now find the right introspection clos methods 13:59:18 *yvdriess* fetches amop 13:59:23 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:01:01 athos [n=philipp@p54B87233.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:28 e271 [i=[9EPvP7H@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:34 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc49.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 14:04:00 are there any known problems with ffi and the latest sbcl (1.0.22)? 14:04:14 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:14 matlisp is hanging 14:05:12 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:03 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc49.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:08:33 -!- zzf256 [n=user@77.118.13.235.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:42 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f517f.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 14:09:04 kami- [n=user@p4FD39512.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:09:10 hello 14:09:59 Are there any common lisp interfaces for wordnet 3? 14:10:14 The most recent interface I can fine is for wordnet 1.6 14:10:57 matimago: Did you look at my patch? 14:12:00 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-13.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:14:11 tcr: sorry, I didn't have time yesterday. I'll do that this week end. 14:14:35 Anyone know of some sites with various algorithms in lisp? 14:14:53 isn't yvdriess's problem the reason NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD is there? 14:15:18 Quadrescence: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/0.html http://common-lisp.net http://cliki.net etc. 14:15:23 no-applicable-method? 14:15:32 (modulo the issue of what "Programmers may write methods for it." means.) 14:15:34 matimago: I'll take a look. Thanks. 14:16:34 kreuter: not exactly. Even if there is a method (defmethod m ((self t)) ...) defined, we still want to (defmethod m ((self proxy)) (m (concrete self))) 14:16:52 Then if there was no method defined on the concrete class no-applicable-method will be called, on the concrete class. 14:17:45 okay. 14:17:46 We could formulate the problem as: we define a new class, and we want instances of this class to receive all the possible messages and forward them to some object. 14:18:25 An easy solution is whe the "all the possible message" can be snapshot at one time, when we scan the generic functions. 14:18:29 s/whe/when/ 14:19:11 well, if you're willing to say that none of the generic functions in the protocol are allowed to specialize on any of the proxy class's superclasses, you can maybe do it through no-applicable-method. 14:19:28 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc49.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 14:19:39 and if the proxy class is just a direct subclass of standard-object, that ought not to be too burdensome. 14:19:45 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:20:02 njsg [n=njsg@sigma02.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 14:21:38 *tcr* wishes DEFCLASS' slot-options included a :print option which would make the slot be printed. 14:22:24 tcr: with a specific metaclass you could add a :print option. Or with a specific DEFCLASS macro. 14:22:36 In lisp, your wishes are easy to implement ;-) 14:24:03 Too much baggage. 14:24:07 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit [Client Quit] 14:26:16 I ned to make graphs! Interactive graphs. Where Xach when you need him? 14:26:36 what kind of graphs? 14:27:17 What do you mean by "interactive"? 14:27:36 Regular 2D lineplot, very simple. But I need to be able to change a bunch of parameters that changes how that line is calculated. Want to be able to do it in realtime in some sort of GUI, instead of recalculating the graph. 14:28:08 don't know if it's called a lineplot, but it's the sort of graph you'd plot when measuring the amount of rain per month over a year or two 14:28:12 tic: so you want to modify the bitmap only between coordinates 45 and 57 for example? 14:28:37 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 14:28:38 tic: for a long time already, it's more programmer-time efficient to just redraw the whole graph. You could use gnuplot. 14:29:13 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 14:29:19 matimago, I want the interactivity for visualization and being able to see pattern. I'm very much hindered by that when doing batch processing 14:29:24 bot not necessarily very user-friendly if the recalculation results in a different graph 14:29:28 tic: otherwise, you could use any GUI, with vectorial objects, and changing the objects would change the display dynamically. 14:29:34 McCLIM, Garnet, whatever. 14:29:45 Y depends on 2-3 variables and X. 14:30:02 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279776357.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 14:30:08 Yeah, that might do. So the question is: what is the better (= optimizing for programer-time) choice? 14:31:01 mbac [i=[TY1IyaH@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:05 tic: use svg 14:31:10 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 14:31:14 I tried Garnet once. I booted McCLIM once. I've got more experience with OpenStep GUI. So I could n't really advise on the _better_ choice. 14:31:39 Well svg will redraw everything no? 14:31:43 H4ns, not such a bad idea. 14:31:56 matimago, yeah, but it's fairly realtime if you manipulate it w/ javascript. 14:32:03 matimago: true, but it will do so instantaneously, and it will be very easy to generate and manipulate 14:32:38 gnuplot is instantaneous too. 14:32:40 now, a web server or pure-javascript is the question. 14:32:52 matimago: so? 14:33:05 So I'd stay with my first advice, use gnuplot. 14:33:08 tic: if you want it flashy, look into flare 14:33:40 H4ns, flashy indeed. thanks! 14:34:15 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:27 But! I also want to do it in Lisp. It's not a critical project that has to be done, more for fun. I could probably play with a Lisp web server that emits SVG. 14:34:48 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:52 http://flare.prefuse.org/demo doesn't work here... 14:34:58 tic: yeah, use cxml's unparse, write yourself a few svg-generating helper macros. it will be dead easy and fun. 14:35:16 matimago: no. flare is meant for 21st century people :D 14:35:25 H4ns, my sarcasm-o-meter is broken. did you mean that? 14:35:35 tic: sure. i meant that. 14:36:12 H4ns, I do need CXML for the data mining. I suppose unparse is the flattener, right? 14:36:18 *tic* tries finding the documentation 14:36:56 H4ns: I use Firefox 2.0.0.16 made two month ago! Isn't that 21st century? 14:37:03 tic: yes, it is a procedural xml generator which i often prefer to declarative xml generation 14:37:43 matimago: not 21st century enough 14:37:50 matimago: please excuse my bad joke. apologies. you are aware that flare needs flash, and that firefox 3 is current? 14:37:56 matimago: ffx 3 has been out for a few months now (: 14:38:03 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-172-113.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:38:16 and wow, that is cool 14:38:25 ok. I'll consider upgrading it. Thanks. 14:38:30 H4ns, the declarative xml would be the w-x-o block with w-e and cxml:attribute in it? 14:38:49 tic: no, something like with-html-output 14:39:28 H4ns, that's the same thing though, isn't it? (with-xml-output ... (with-element "blah" ...) ..) 14:39:37 lad [n=user@U2.N59.QueensU.CA] has joined #lisp 14:39:47 but nevermind. :) I'll probably find what I'm looking for. 14:40:12 tic: by declarative i mean something that would involve a code walker or fancy macrology. i often prefer (with-element.../(attribute.../(text... 14:40:47 H4ns, I see. 14:41:52 H4ns, curious, why do you prefer that? For smaller languages the declarative approach might not be worth it, but it seems you'll eventually hit a limit where it becomes more tedious to do with-element, ....? 14:42:17 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:00 Is it possible to leverage flare from within CL? 14:45:21 tic: i find it easier to control the generated xml in the procedural approach - like what name space is used, what gets evaluated and what not, etc. but you are right, there may be limits to that. xmlisp may also be good. 14:45:38 tcr: you can always send the flash application some data using cl :) 14:45:43 H4ns, *nod* 14:47:20 I'm not familiar with the whole Flash stuff. Is ActionScript the language that will be compiled to the byte-code that is understood by the Flash VM? 14:48:15 tcr: correct. it is something like javascript with type declarations. 14:49:28 so no runtime types? 14:49:38 tic: no run time type errors. 14:50:33 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 14:50:43 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a61-232.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:09 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 14:51:27 crod [n=cmell@cb8a60-199.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:52:45 mogunus pasted "wordnet?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70374 14:52:56 So, I'm getting this error when I try to define the wordnet library. 14:53:15 can you load .a:s? 14:53:54 mogunus: libfoo.a is not a shared library 14:53:56 I don't think you can load static libraries. 14:54:01 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:54:03 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B87233.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:54:40 Hmm, I guess I mis-read the cffi docs something terrible then. 14:55:34 is there libWN.so? 14:55:58 -!- lad [n=user@U2.N59.QueensU.CA] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:55:59 stassats: no, just the .a 14:56:16 [1]edon [n=edon@82.114.94.18] has joined #lisp 14:56:31 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:56:55 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:57:06 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:57:52 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 14:58:32 So I would need to convience wordnet to build a shared object? 14:59:00 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc49.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:59:01 well, you can either try to convince the makefile, or you can turn the .a into a shared library 14:59:20 chandler: how would I convert the ,a? 15:00:07 mogunus: well, how do you produce a shared library on your system? 15:00:16 on a typical Linux system, this is gcc -shared foo.a -o libfoo.so 15:00:26 ls 15:00:38 mis 15:00:46 wrong window? 15:00:49 I'm running a typical linux system. I'll see if that works, thanks. 15:00:55 *danlei* nods. 15:01:12 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["Rebels Unite!"] 15:01:31 milanj [n=milan@79.101.196.73] has joined #lisp 15:01:40 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.126] has quit ["bbl"] 15:02:03 great! that worked. 15:03:08 chandler: what should I read to have been able to figure that out on my own? some sort of reference to library types? 15:03:39 I have no idea. You could try swallowing the binutils manual, but I don't understand most of that either. 15:04:27 There's a shared library Linux howto, iirc. 15:04:48 as far as i remember, that's all in the tutorial (the libcurl exmample) 15:04:49 chandler: Any progress on my reader patches? 15:05:06 mogunus: If you know how to produce a shared library from a collection of .o files, doing it for a .a file is no different, since a .a is just an 'ar' archive of .o files. 15:05:13 tcr: ah, it's in the "program library HOWTO" 15:05:21 I'll just read all of this then. 15:05:25 thanks 15:05:40 Yes, it's a good read, I think. 15:05:44 tcr: I have been swamped, sorry. I had hoped to get to them early this week, but now I don't know when I'll next have free time. 15:05:57 mogunus: you may also want to have a look at http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/darcs/cffi/examples/ 15:06:15 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:06:20 chandler: No problem. That's life. 15:10:50 mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has joined #lisp 15:10:54 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:11:34 are there any known problems with sbcl and FFI on suse 11? 15:11:44 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:12:52 or, alternatively, with gcc 4.3? 15:13:26 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [No route to host] 15:13:53 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:53 -!- [1]edon is now known as edon 15:14:33 -!- bartiosze [n=user@ejf118.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:14:42 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:49 prxq: i think you need to be more specific, e.g. by pasting an error message to lisppaste 15:15:24 bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:15:35 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:16:07 -!- bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:16:07 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:16:34 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:17:01 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:17:13 l_a_m: weird, I don't get that. Perhaps a non-style WARNING that your version of SBCL signals and mine doesn't? 15:17:26 l_a_m: Can you paste the compilation output for that file, so that we see the actual warning? 15:17:53 lichtblau: of course 15:17:55 lichtblau: http://paste.lisp.org/display/70369 15:18:12 wait, no, I misread that. It's not just a warning but an actual error. Anyway, the output from compile-file would help. 15:23:21 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 15:23:50 H4ns: unfortunately, the scenario is that matlisp with sbcl 1.0.17 and gcc 3.3.5 / 3.4.6 works fine, but with 4.3 it hangs. So no error messages. 15:24:05 Is it an error to use a macro in a lambda ? 15:24:14 -!- dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:24:28 you can use macro whenever you want 15:24:43 *wherever 15:25:45 gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:07 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:02 auclairb: What makes you think so? 15:31:12 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 15:31:13 -!- dcl is now known as spiderbyte 15:31:57 morning 15:32:23 slyrus_: Hi! Iirc, you've got some experience with cl-pdf, right? 15:32:33 yeah, some. 15:33:03 lispm [n=joswig@e177125059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:33:09 slyrus_: Do you know what pdf version its pdf parser was written for? 15:33:17 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-50-124-24.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:30 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 15:33:35 no, I've only used it for generating pdfs, not parsing them 15:34:31 hi 15:34:41 I'm looking at CLIMACS 15:34:46 is there a direct equivalent in CL to mapappend? 15:35:15 it looks that CLIMACS uses SWANK to find definitions of Lisp functions 15:36:01 is that right? what if when I run CLIMACS without swank and want to find its own definitions? 15:36:10 anybody using it that way? 15:36:43 I don't think so 15:37:04 swank for climacs is just a compatibility layer for introspection and running compiles and stuff 15:37:46 (i.e. it does not need a running swank server.) 15:37:54 yvdriess: that depends on what mapappend does. 15:38:17 but would m-. find a definition in the lisp that runs CLIMACS? 15:38:26 I'm guessing the function passed to the map returns a list 15:38:29 and that list is appended 15:38:58 like (apply #'append (mapcar ...)) ? 15:39:04 lispm: without swank, M-. does nothing at all 15:39:10 willb [n=wibenton@wireless06.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:39:10 I guess that works 15:39:17 There's MAPCAN but it uses NCONC rather than append. 15:39:29 Xof: okay, that was my impression 15:39:50 with swank loaded, M-. finds definitions 15:40:09 Xof: in remote Lisps or also in the local Lisp? 15:40:15 there are no remote lisps 15:40:19 ah 15:40:35 (if I recall correctly) 15:41:10 okay that would mean, I need to load swank before I load McCLIM 15:41:28 in sbcl, what kind of forms would put a WITHOUT-INTERRUPTS-BODY around code? 15:41:52 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B3D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:42:23 lispm: the mcclim asd will do that for you, if swank.asd is in your *central-registry* or otherwise findable by asdf 15:42:48 it wasn't, so it can't find it 15:43:09 I"ll add that 15:43:24 is ED redefined then to use CLIMACS? 15:43:35 (i can find it out later...) 15:43:36 lichtblau: i don't really understand the output of this error 15:43:42 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc49.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 15:43:54 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [] 15:45:22 on the Lisp Machine I have also Edit CP Command and Edit Zmacs Command 15:45:31 that would be handy, too 15:45:47 lispm: CL does not provide any hook to customize what ED does. 15:45:59 tcr: no? 15:46:16 I would simply redefine ED 15:46:40 in sbcl, you can add ed-hooks 15:47:00 somewhere I have a slime hook and a climacs one 15:47:01 l_a_m: you probably need to delete the fasl in order to get output from compile-file again. 15:47:51 if I'm in the CLIM listener and call (ed 'something) I would be happy if CLIMACS shows the definition 15:48:04 Just use M-. something RET 15:50:03 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 15:50:40 lispm: ISTR that clim-desktop provided this kind of integration 15:51:25 okay, I have to look at CLIM-DESKTOP 15:52:10 I wanted to have the source navigation capabilities ;-) 15:54:06 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go"] 15:54:47 nostoi [n=nostoi@39.Red-83-35-122.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:58 I find the McCLIM stuff doesn't look that bad. Sources are quite readable. 15:55:06 a bit propaganda might help 15:55:14 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-36-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 15:55:22 I'll see what I can do at the next local meeting ;-) 15:56:38 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:42 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 15:58:18 -!- bertskert [n=Marcus@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 15:59:32 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 16:03:31 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:08:33 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:08:33 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177125059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:09:27 lichtblau: i try this .... http://paste.lisp.org/display/70369#1 16:10:51 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:11:25 lichtblau: oups ... http://paste.lisp.org/display/70369#2 16:12:28 http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/debian/chartvs.php?test=all&lang=sbcl&lang2=gpp 16:12:30 :< 16:13:17 lichtblau: using *break-on-signal* t : http://paste.lisp.org/display/70369#3 16:13:40 Quadrescence: now explain why anyone should care 16:14:07 cmm: u_u 16:14:55 Quadrescence: hmm? 16:15:14 cmm: You have no idea why one might care about such a benchmark? 16:15:28 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp145.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 16:15:33 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:16:33 an unspecified sbcl is slower than gcc at unspecified tasks! woe is sbcl! 16:16:35 yikes, it works! 16:17:13 Quadrescence: I don't think anyone knowledgeable would care too much about such a benchmark 16:17:21 Quadrescence: none whatsoever. the authors of the benchmark might care, but that's about it 16:18:13 results of benchmarks: there is always space for improvements 16:19:07 tcr: cmm: I didn't post it to yell "hey all, g++ produces faster code than SBCL!" I realize any of it could be improved upon, of course. But it certainly would be more delightful, to me, if the results were pointing the opposite way. 16:19:10 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:19:37 Quadrescence: besides the fact that for many cases one doesn't care that much about raw computational performance, see here for why such benchmarks cannot be trusted: http://openmap.bbn.com/~kanderso/performance/ 16:20:14 (summary: they take existing benchmarks on C, Lisp and various other things, and in many cases make them tens of times faster through simple changes) 16:21:03 <``Erik> mediocre programmers write programs better in a mediocre language than a good one? is that what that chart means? :) 16:21:20 rsynnott: Right, right, I realize that. :S I should have just not pasted the benchmark for no reason. 16:21:25 ``Erik: Hehehe. :D 16:22:21 Quadrescence: If that graph is really that much valuable to you, you've got a distorted value-belief system. 16:22:33 tcr: It's not. 16:23:38 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:24:03 is there a more idiomatic way to do: (map 'string 'identity '(#\s #\o #\m #\e #\t #\h #\i #\n #\g)) ? 16:24:18 coerce? 16:25:27 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 16:25:29 <``Erik> Quadrescence: http://www.flownet.com/gat/papers/lisp-java.pdf might be a more amusing comparison :) 16:25:41 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:47 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 16:26:02 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:26:32 thanks adeht 16:26:35 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 16:27:52 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:28:00 ``Erik: "The Lisp programs ranged from 51 to 182 LOC...and Java programs ranged from 107 to 614 LOC..." 16:28:04 Haha. :D 16:28:08 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:28:49 pjb pasted "(map 'string 'identity '(#\s #\o #\m #\e #\t #\h #\i #\n #\g))" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70381 16:29:13 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:30 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 16:29:49 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 16:30:10 Quadrescence: in programming contests, the most significant figure, is not the LOC, but the programmer·hour. In general Lisp programmers get results at least one order of magnitude faster than the others. 16:31:51 ``Erik: rather unfair, though, because it's an antique java :) 16:32:00 You guys should help out with RosettaCode: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Lisp 16:32:01 :> 16:32:05 but boilerplate-heavy languages keep a whole industry of clueless coders afloat 16:32:24 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:32:35 matimago: that is why lisp programmers have consistently won the icfp programming contest since it has existed! 16:32:37 Is it possible to write something like this but so that x and y binds on the x and y of the lambda ? (let ((popo '(+ x y))) (lambda (x y) (eval popo))) 16:32:50 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:33:05 http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~apt/cs457_2005/hudak-jones.pdf about programmer·hour 16:33:06 oh, err, it were the java guys this year. hum. last year, java? erm. well. 16:33:55 was there a lisp team this year? 16:34:38 auclairb: eval evaluates in the null lexical environment 16:35:42 Is this the correct way to write it : (let ((popo '(+ x y))) (compile nil `(lambda (x y) ,popo))) ? 16:35:59 Quadrescence: H4ns: have a look at: http://www.haskell.org/papers/NSWC/jfp.ps 16:36:18 auclairb: yes, it's correct. 16:36:25 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-ba17cf547f620cf4] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:30 hello, I've been messing with file functions yesterday, but found nothing suitable to _list_ a directory like the shell command 'ls'. It's not a problem, I just run 'ls' from the repl, but there should be a native function that handles dir listing, right? 16:36:31 matimago: there is lies, lies, and lies. and then there is statistics. 16:36:45 clhs directory 16:36:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dir.htm 16:36:49 tc-rucho: ^ 16:36:56 matimago: that's the same as my link 16:37:17 matimago: i was hoping for a pretty way to write it but i guess i'm not doing pretty stuff, thanks :D 16:37:17 stassats: Sorry. 16:37:23 H4ns: as far as I know, that only quotes the directory as #"/blah/blah" 16:37:29 *tc-rucho* checks again anyway 16:37:36 tc-rucho: you could, say, read pcl 16:37:51 tc-rucho: Try: (values (directory "*") (directory "*.*") (directory "**/*") (directory "**/*.*")) 16:38:43 tc-rucho: don't do that with *default-pathname-defaults* near the root... 16:39:12 matimago: Hehe: Relational Lisp, 3 hour dev time 16:40:21 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:40:35 I use that paper in my "Software Project Management" course for the masters students. 16:41:09 matimago: I see, I thought it only listed the path, since the hyperspec had no example, I thought it was just that 16:42:14 matimago: in spite of having an utf-8 coding error I'm gonna figure out in a minute, this directory function is imho not well documented. Anyway, thanks a ton, I'm now back to the repl 16:42:29 tc-rucho: that's why it's good to read some book. CLHS is only a reference. 16:42:49 tc-rucho: are you using clisp? 16:42:54 " Determines which, if any, files that are present in the file system have names matching pathspec, and returns a fresh list of pathnames corresponding to the truenames of those files. " 16:42:56 matimago: no, sbcl 16:43:14 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-7ec0a2307b6a715b] has joined #lisp 16:43:17 it's not terribly vague. 16:43:18 ok. 16:43:42 Well the keyword that might remain unnoticed is "matching". 16:46:54 H4ns: an example is better imo. Examples talk more than 1000 words, and they are not english dependant (I mean, one does not need to have a great english level to get them, but a text is different) 16:47:18 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-096-69.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:42 tc-rucho: i concur with matimago: read a book, the spec is not the right text to learn the language as it requires precise interpretation and a good sense of what the individual words mean. 16:49:08 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:49:11 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 16:51:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:52:40 H4ns: sure, it's just that I have been holding myself up from messing with anything but my studies, and now I wanted to do some little script that is definitely gonna take me much less than reading a book. It's not that I wan't to avoid the book, it's just that I want to do something before I go nuts, and after I finish it, I must concentrate in studying for final exams (here in the south hemisphere, 16:52:43 classes end on november, finals on december and (if (holidays) "they are on january, feb, and some days of march") 16:53:59 I don't know if this question comes up often in here, but I made a .gif image from PAIP concerning equality tests. Whoever's in charge of the bot here could add it as some trigger if they wanted to: http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/8974/equalityjb4.gif 16:54:57 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CE06.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:55:38 I'm gonna print that and put it on the wall 16:56:20 hmm.. isn't it possible that some of these literals are eq? 16:56:48 e.g., (eq '(x) '(x)) ==> t 16:57:03 Quadrescence: What is the difference between the types of apostrophes ? 16:57:17 auclairb: Bad OCR 16:57:22 bertskert [n=Marcus@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:57:24 Hence I'll remake it in TeX right now. 16:57:56 you could just type it into your text editor 16:57:56 adeht: Yes, under file compilation, the compiler is allowed to coalesce the two literals to the same memory location. 16:57:57 adeht: possible, but improbable. 16:58:15 is there a lisp function for returning the first return value of a function call? 16:58:24 clhs values 16:58:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm 16:58:29 (values (values 1 2 3)) 16:58:49 bertskert: Or explicitly, (nth-value 0 (form)) 16:59:03 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:17 so (values (macroexpand-1 ...)) will spare me the T and give me the expanded form? 16:59:40 Whatever you mean with "spare" is probably misguided. 16:59:41 Yes, but if you don't use the T, you won't get it anyways. 17:00:14 I use the return value, and now I get T 17:00:40 Only if your macro expands to T. 17:01:53 it doesn't.. when I eval (macroexpand-1 ...) I get the form I want and T 17:02:25 bertskert: that's not true! Try: (list (macroexpand-1 ...)) or (print (macroexpand-1 ...)) or anything else. 17:02:32 don't care about if you don't need it 17:03:37 bertskert: you have to consider that there is a program that is doing something, the REPL, which Reads, Evals, Prints and Loops. This is this program that prints all the values returned from the evaluation of your form. But if you don't print them, you don't get them. 17:04:00 To get multiple values, you have to explicitely require them with multiple-value-bind or multiple-value-setq. 17:04:50 or (setf (values ...) ...) 17:04:53 or m-v-list.. 17:05:13 or m-v-call 17:05:42 so if I return (macroexpand-1 ...) from a function, instead of evaling it, I get the form, not T (if the form is not T)? 17:06:03 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 17:06:25 bertskert: no, multiple values are also returned. If you want your function to return only one value, you have to do it explicitely (values (macroexpand-1 ...)) or (nth-value 0 (macroexpand-1 ...)) 17:06:33 bertskert: every time you call macroexpand-1 you get the two values.. but you can ignore the second value 17:06:42 But if you leave your function return several values, the same as above applies. 17:07:45 okay.. 17:10:04 ah, it works =) thx guys 17:11:07 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:00 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 17:12:26 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@39.Red-83-35-122.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:13:08 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 17:15:20 l_a_m: is your cxml-stp up-to-date? 17:15:51 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:19:58 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a60-199.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:00 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f517f.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:21 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [] 17:20:35 crod [n=cmell@d288be-061.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:20:39 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-152-148.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:44 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:21:41 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:42 disumu [n=disumu@p57A24725.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:40 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 17:23:45 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:25:29 noid [n=Beket@athedsl-164682.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:25:32 afa [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has joined #lisp 17:25:42 afa_ [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has joined #lisp 17:31:18 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:27 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:31:36 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:32:55 rread [n=rread@192.18.37.228] has joined #lisp 17:34:37 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:45 tc-rucho: whoever else: Here's a prettier one, http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7527/eqtestgd2.png 17:35:02 *tc-rucho* clicks 17:36:03 I find the previous one clearer, since it does not have a lot of cell borders 17:36:24 tc-rucho: Maybe so. 17:36:44 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:37:17 Quadrescence: did you do that pic? 17:37:26 tc-rucho: Yeah 17:37:32 used latex? 17:37:35 Yes. 17:38:13 then try taking all the vertical borders but the one with the doubleline 17:38:20 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:38:57 tc-rucho: You and your formal tables. 17:39:07 ? 17:39:08 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:39:16 Those tables are called "formal tables" 17:40:14 -!- afa [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has quit [] 17:40:14 -!- afa_ [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has quit [] 17:41:03 that's worse than the previous one.. (let ((foo '(x))) (eq foo foo)) ==> t 17:41:38 Quadrescence: I would have used \begin{tabular}{c c | c c c c} 17:42:05 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CE06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:34 (the previous one didn't show values, but forms to be evaluated) 17:43:08 ramkrsna_ [n=ramkrsna@nat/redhat-in/x-66a1eecdedf07181] has joined #lisp 17:43:38 adeht: it would be t for anything instead '(x) 17:43:41 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp145.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 17:43:57 tc-rucho: http://www.file-pasta.com/file/0/eqtest.pdf 17:44:17 -!- ramkrsna_ is now known as ramky 17:44:20 todays result in LOC: (+ -1 +1 -87 +4 +1 +53) => -29 .. hooray .. i got minus-points; that's almost the same as infinity (i think) 17:44:35 (sorry; tired and bored and lonely ... :P) 17:44:39 adeht: Perhaps "values" isn't the correct word. I meant "values" of `a' and `b; 17:44:40 '* 17:44:50 -!- ramky is now known as ramki 17:45:06 Quadrescence: nice, but, hang on 17:45:17 tc-rucho: :S 17:46:18 stassats: indeed.. and in the table he has `(x)' in the "a" column, and `(x)' in the b column, which the example I gave satisfies.. but the return value of `eq' does not match the one in the table 17:46:18 messed up quotation :d 17:46:34 -!- jlilly [n=user@cpe-098-025-176-046.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:47:34 adeht: the same would be with "xy" 17:48:35 adeht: Note that the table also says (eq-test 'a 'b) 17:48:49 i.e., do a direct substitution of a and b. 17:49:00 (which is why I used a math font) 17:49:13 besiria [n=user@ppp083212085040.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 17:49:39 stassats: yep 17:49:52 adeht: more clear will be (let ((foo '(x))) (equal foo (copy-seq foo))) vs. (let ((foo '(x))) (eq foo (copy-seq foo))) 17:50:58 Quadrescence: oh, ok.. then it's as good (or bad) as the previous one. 17:51:20 stassats: that's a totally different case 17:51:40 adeht: but it explains difference between eq and equal 17:52:10 stassats: not really, it just indicates that there is a difference :) 17:52:38 then by analogy: (eq (make-symbol "x") (make-symbol "x")), so this table isn't good for learning equality, just for memorizing it 17:52:48 (which is what the table here does, anyway) 17:52:54 Quadrescence: this one isn't bad: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=spectralnorm&lang=all 17:53:06 table doesn't show that eq tests for identity 17:53:47 it's fun but rather pointless, hacking on shootout benchmarks 17:53:48 stassats: yep 17:55:02 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.244.123] has joined #lisp 17:56:24 hefner: Give SBCL a few more years. It will be everyone's language of choice. :D 17:56:39 (well, lisp will be) 17:57:38 do you think other compilers would be on hiatus for these few years? 17:57:53 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:58:02 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:58:28 stassats: Yes. :D 17:59:31 Javamonkeys don't see lisp for what it is. :o I barely see its true "beauty". 17:59:43 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Operation timed out] 18:00:22 Quadrescence: you mean http://javamonkey.com/ ? 18:00:51 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:05 stassats: Hahaha. 18:01:45 Astro [n=astro@2001:8d8:81:5c8:219:dbff:fe64:81a7] has joined #lisp 18:01:45 well, the wave that pushes evolution of popular programming languages keeps steadily pushing them toward lisp 18:01:46 so it might not be too long now until they finally converge 18:01:49 stassats: I didn't know about that. 18:02:11 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:02:22 locklace: I am actually intending on writing some genetic programs soon. :o I was going to in C++ originally. 18:02:29 right now they're still reinventing lisp features every month and marveling at their own cleverness and foresight 18:02:52 (But, with that said, I've dumped C++) 18:04:58 Quadrescence: 190.191.162.100/cuack.pdf I would have done it like this 18:05:03 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 18:05:16 (just gave your table a different formatting) 18:05:42 tc-rucho: Mediocre. 18:06:01 ... 18:06:03 I agree my original table in latex was a bit "complex" 18:06:14 But you lack monospace! 18:06:35 I was looking for readability rather than texing complexity 18:06:46 tc-rucho: :) 18:06:47 who needs compiler benchmarks? now we have equality tables contest 18:06:57 stassats: :D 18:07:19 nil rhymes with Bill. 18:07:22 Quadrescence: and yes, the title is not aligned, shit happens 18:07:48 tc-rucho: I ignored that, since I know you could fix that easily. 18:07:58 please, take that to private messages. 18:08:07 pkhuong: :/ 18:08:25 Quadrescence: then, why the "Mediocre" of before? 18:10:22 (PM'd) 18:10:34 noticed it 18:11:01 it's just that I think that what begins in public, must remain public, but anyway. It's not a relevant matter 18:11:16 what is the language called in which you depict a chess game? 18:11:22 I was just showing you the formatting I would have used 18:11:22 tc-rucho: I agree too. But then I know I'll annoy someone further. 18:12:06 bertskert: you mean chess notation? 18:12:29 bertskert: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebraic_chess_notation 18:13:24 yes 18:15:33 anyone think it would be fun to bolt the autozone gc onto sbcl? 18:15:46 locklace: and have to call into C for every allocation? 18:16:03 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:34 yeah, that part kind of sucks 18:17:56 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:19:24 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.181.189] has joined #lisp 18:20:14 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:21:16 matimago: if (directory "*") matches ".something" "somedir/" and "file" (prce would be '\.*[^\.]+/?$') , why doesn't it match "file.ext"? and yet matches ".file"? Using (directory "*.*") solves it, but afaik, * means "whatever" and here, the dot seems to mean just dot (unlike pcre). So, shouldn't *.* list .file .file.ext but not just file? I find it a bit confusing 18:23:49 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:02 tc-rucho: the precise behaviour of pathnames is not specified. 18:24:19 tc-rucho: there are subtle differences between implementations. 18:24:32 H4ns: it looks fos to me 18:24:36 =/ 18:24:54 but I'm still looking for documentation about it 18:25:02 How about CL-FAD? 18:25:16 *tc-rucho* googles 18:25:32 hmm 18:25:33 nice 18:26:05 tic: thanks for pointing me to that package :) I'll investigate it 18:26:12 slava: I just watched your google talk; Factor seems really nice. 18:26:52 *Quadrescence* is reading about lisp data types. 18:26:54 -!- nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:27:05 I never realized lisp had all of these. :D :D 18:27:57 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.196.73] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:37 dnolen [n=dnolen@70.107.142.24] has joined #lisp 18:28:37 vasa [n=vasa@mm-36-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 18:28:48 hi all 18:28:52 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:00 can i make variable as dynamic in local scope? 18:29:05 Quadrescence, it's a programming language designed to be practical, you know. 18:29:08 like (declime ...) 18:29:24 (declare (special variable)) ? 18:29:27 (declare (special x)) 18:29:36 thx 18:29:37 ) 18:29:44 i just forgot 18:29:53 tic: Well, yeah, but still, it's so much more than practical. 18:30:11 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A24725.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 18:30:16 -!- sbach_ is now known as sjbach 18:30:40 Quadrescence, more than practical? 18:30:48 "overengineered"? 18:30:58 tic: That probable makes little sense, "more than practical". 18:31:09 new! common lisp! combining the practical, the impractical, and the downright stupid! 18:31:31 rsynnott, thanks for my new .sig 18:32:38 Quadrescence - and since sometimes the kitchen sink just isn't enough, http://cliki.net/cl-containers 18:32:54 O_O 18:33:52 -!- gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:34:13 also don't forget 18:34:14 cltl2-section Series 18:34:14 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node347.html 18:35:35 yum yum yum 18:36:15 The problem I had in every language (except Haskell, where I just got unhappy with other things) was data structures. 18:36:31 is it an unspoken rule that code in macros is allowed to be ugly? 18:36:55 fusss: i'd say it _tends_ to be ugly :) 18:37:36 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:37:59 fusss, something else than the punctuation? 18:38:32 not just that, it's something i can't put my finger on yet 18:38:44 tic: code in macros often tries to be self-contained. 18:38:52 yes! 18:39:15 fusss: do-with... style helps, though. 18:39:44 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.13.65] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:40:12 otherwise complex libraries are wrapped by a handful of macros, and that little macro code seems like the author getting in touch with his inner perler 18:40:59 just never look at the hideous product of your average macro if you can help it, and you'll be fine 18:41:45 STEP, TRACE, ... :D :D 18:42:36 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:42:38 -!- gigamonkey` [n=user@adsl-99-50-124-24.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:43:00 what am i missing? isn't ,@foo equivalent to (list ,foo)? 18:43:16 no 18:43:17 never mind :-P 18:43:30 caught myself being stupid. brb 18:44:06 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [No route to host] 18:44:22 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-124-24.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:34 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:44:46 How does one define argument types? :o 18:44:59 josemanuel [n=josemanu@89.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:45:02 H4ns, self-contained as in not using auxillary functions? 18:45:19 quadrescence: declarations 18:45:34 Quadrescence: look at declare, declaim and check-type 18:46:02 adeht: locklace: Thank you both. 18:46:25 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-d18701ad726529ec] has joined #lisp 18:47:00 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:48:34 *tic* should try to improve his score on stackoverflow. 18:48:59 meh, wrong frame. Sorry for the noise. 18:49:08 ugh, after a week of running an elephant/postmodern-backed website, database server data transfered: 1.5TB :S 18:50:47 rsynnott: that's bad? 18:52:16 well, it's rather a lot 18:52:19 :) 18:52:23 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:52:44 (elephant with postmodern does a fair bit of b-tree traversal on the lisp end, so not that surprising) 18:53:07 can i expand macro in arguments of other macro? 18:53:27 first my macro expands and then other macro expands 18:53:33 tic: yes. 18:59:36 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:59:45 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-152-148.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:59:59 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:00:48 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:54 -!- neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has quit ["Abandonando"] 19:04:02 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:56 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 19:05:19 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:07:04 -!- bertskert [n=Marcus@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:07:40 Will (ASSERT (>= n k 0)) check for n >= k >= 0 ? 19:07:42 -!- tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@unaffiliated/tc-rucho] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:08:17 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:17 clhs >= 19:08:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq_sle.htm 19:08:25 that's how >= is defined. 19:08:53 chandler: Thanks. I wasn't sure if it just checks against the first argument. :S 19:09:17 Can somebody please explain to me what the keyword :S is supposed to represent? 19:09:47 heh 19:09:51 I think it's related to :D which is Quadrescence uses often, too. 19:09:55 About the only thing I've been able to discern from context is that it means "I don't know how to read or search" 19:09:56 s/is// 19:10:09 is it >= :F ? 19:10:15 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:31 chandler: i think it means something like "i have no idea what i'm doing" 19:10:58 (string>= :F :S) => NIL 19:11:11 SDF 19:11:27 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 19:11:37 chandler: The reason I don't search some times is because (a) I already have other references open, (b) more time is taken searching while I can also get other stuff done, (c) ...etc. But by saying this, I'm sure one of you will come up with some argument as to why this is either bad practice or bad etiquette. 19:12:27 hrr4_ [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has joined #lisp 19:12:38 Quadrescence, you're wasting other people's time. That's indeed not very nice. 19:12:42 It is bad etiquette. We are not automatons. We are autons, and we will replace you with a shiny plastic replica if you annoy us. 19:12:44 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@81.90.21.226] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:13:03 minion: chant 19:13:03 MORE TIME 19:13:29 fusss: What's the macro that you think is ugly? 19:13:48 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-142-24.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:02 tic: It was a yes-or-no question. typing "yes" or even "y" would have done the trick. If someone doesn't want to answer or don't have the time to answer, they don't have to. 19:14:17 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 19:14:21 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@70.107.142.24] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:14:44 Quadrescence, you could've easily investigated the problem yourself though, by either evaluating the form (=> 3 2 1) in the REPL, or by looking up the entry for >= the spec. It 19:15:00 it's okay to make mistakes, but don't try to justify them. 19:15:01 Quadrescence: "y" wouldn't work for yes-or-no-p 19:15:12 stassats: I didn't say yes-or-no-p. 19:15:13 Quadrescence: We don't want to give you fish, but teach you fishing. 19:15:22 Quadrescence: but i did 19:15:29 Quadrescence: Asking questions that you can easily answer for yourself wastes a lot of other people's time. Everyone who is here and paying attention had to read and parse your question before determining it was something that used more of their time than it would have taken you just to find the answer for yourself. 19:15:43 -!- Bzek_ [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-17-33.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:15:51 Quadrescence: If you are not using the right tools to make this question easy to answer, I can help you with that. 19:16:12 If you are using SLIME, C-c C-d C-h will open the HyperSpec entry for the symbol under the point. 19:16:38 I thought it's C-c C-d h 19:16:39 chandler: That takes negligible time. With that said, I am learning lisp right now, so I have lots and lots of questions, the majority of which I am answering myself. I have PCL, PAIP, and Steele's books open right now. 19:16:48 dcrawford: Er, yeah. It's sort of autopilot at this point. 19:17:12 (documentation '>= 'function) would've worked too 19:17:16 If you're using Limp, K or \he will open up the Hyperspec with the symbol under the cursor; \hd will describe it in your Lisp. 19:17:19 Quadrescence: Please agree to stop asking stupid questions so i can stop having the read the ensuing discussion. 19:17:21 hrr4 [n=hrr4@81.90.21.226] has joined #lisp 19:17:30 Yes, and that too. 19:17:35 Quadrescence, to you, but not to us that have to read it. 19:18:00 locklace: not for all implementations 19:18:48 tic: You and whoever else are also free to /ignore. Asking about >= in the sense above is not stupid, but rather just simple. 19:19:16 Quadrescence: you are not helping your case 19:19:55 locklace: I don't have a case. This is something very trivial that everyone is getting [some word] about. 19:20:01 Quadrescence: Please, just cut your losses. 19:20:08 Quadrescence: (Caution, the standard means of ignoring people in this channel is to throw them out.) 19:20:15 If you want to be ignored, I can make that happen. 19:20:46 tcr: Well, that is appropriate too if the people with the ability to do so find it appropriate. 19:21:10 is there any predicate function that will return non-nil for two symbols that are 'equal' bet residing in different packages? 19:21:11 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler 19:21:16 Quadrescence: Hush now, please. 19:21:22 qebab: string= 19:21:37 string= works on symbols? :o 19:21:49 My god. 19:21:52 it works on string designators 19:21:56 Symbols are string designators, and STRING= takes a string designator. 19:22:02 ah, cool 19:22:03 thanks 19:22:05 you could compare symbol-name of them 19:22:11 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 19:22:43 qebab: What are you doing, btw? It may be more appropriate to use keywords in the first place. 19:23:05 Perhaps he is writing a LOOP clone. 19:23:28 tcr: I'm making a texas hold 'em player, and I've opted to use symbols for the suit 19:23:46 but you're probably right, I should've used keywords for this 19:23:52 chandler: it sounds like a Ghostbuster's proton pack charging up when you do that. I always cringe. 19:23:53 just didn't think that far 19:24:09 I don't have to change this many places though, so I think I'll do just that 19:24:13 thanks for the tip :) 19:24:14 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler 19:24:17 sellout: What, this? 19:24:32 heh, yes! 19:24:48 (make-echo-stream *standard-input* *standard-output*) 19:24:50 *chandler* crosses the streams 19:24:52 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 19:25:01 ugh! 19:25:03 tcr: none in particular, just a general feel for things 19:25:09 chandler: damnit .. i was just going to op myself and make that joke. 19:25:45 qebab did you implement shuffling and dealing ? 19:26:31 xristos: yeah, but the hard part is the player strategy :p 19:27:13 tcr: thanks for the heads-up again, this works nicely, and I didn't even break anything 19:27:54 qebab could you do a small benchmark, i'm curious how may hands/sec you can deal 19:28:53 like deal 10 million hands in a row 19:29:11 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.244.123] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:29:21 xristos: the shuffling is pretty stupid at the moment, so not that many (it basically draws the cards from the deck in a random order) 19:31:15 I'm thinking it might be better to do it like many dealers do in real life (split the deck etc) 19:31:20 no 19:31:29 but I know next to nothing about card games 19:31:30 this is ridiculus 19:31:35 what is? 19:31:51 the real life dealers try to get enough randomness with splitting etc 19:32:01 but you can have all the randomness you want 19:32:29 without resorting to emulating them 19:33:20 it takes me about 18 seconds to shuffle 100000 decks and deal to 5 players 19:33:29 as I said, not very quick 19:33:46 but it's not going to be the bottleneck here, so I'm not going to bother optimizing it I think 19:34:34 -!- hrr4_ [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:35:06 -!- dalton [n=id@200-100-8-241.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [] 19:35:39 cxml looks good for parsing, what do I want for slurping? cl-curl? 19:36:06 minion: tell tic about drakma 19:36:07 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:36:07 tic: please see drakma: Drakma is a fully-featured Common Lisp web client library that knows how to handle HTTP/1.1 chunking, persistent connections, re-usable sockets, SSL, continuable uploads, cookies, and other things. http://www.cliki.net/drakma 19:36:09 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:14 minion, botsnack 19:36:15 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``botsnack''. 19:36:17 minion, botsnack! 19:36:18 thanks! 19:36:59 qebab ok 19:37:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:40:02 -!- noid [n=Beket@athedsl-164682.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 19:40:12 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 19:41:23 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:41:24 wormil9444 [n=Miranda@70.151.64.162] has joined #lisp 19:44:17 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:45:16 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:45:48 reikon [n=thomas@unaffiliated/reikon] has joined #lisp 19:46:45 Does (<= i j 0) check both i and j against 0? 19:46:57 lispm [n=joswig@e177126094.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:47:07 clhs <= 19:47:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq_sle.htm 19:47:10 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:47:10 i <= j <= 0 in infix syntax. 19:47:20 haha 19:47:47 How very odd! 19:48:02 Moose [n=Moose@unaffiliated/moose] has joined #lisp 19:48:06 So i must be <= to j, which must me <= to 0? 19:48:10 be* 19:48:14 indeed. 19:48:18 it's transitive. 19:49:12 So I've written a program in Lisp, now how do I compile it to target my PDA/SmartPHone device so it can run standalone? 19:49:22 (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (<= x 0)) (list 1 2 3 4)) if you want to compare a sequence of numbers to zero, but it doesn't return immediately if a test fails :-) 19:49:29 Moose: What is your device? 19:49:35 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 19:50:13 reikon: (every #'minusp '(-1 -2 -3)) 19:50:17 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:50:26 H4ns: minusp? 19:50:32 clhs minusp 19:50:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_minusp.htm 19:50:34 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:36 It's a custom device. I took an Intel 80189 processor (27 MHz variation) and modified one of the older boards to work with an interface between the board and an Arduino unit. 19:50:42 ah, you wanted 0, too. 19:50:53 (every (complement #'plusp) ...) 19:51:12 But it runs Windows 95 19:51:17 So that shouldn't be a problem 19:51:38 I have never heard of 80189. Interesting. 19:51:48 H4ns: Oh... I thought it was a German handgun for a second. 19:52:21 It's an older specialized processor 19:52:30 minion: tell Moose about ECL 19:52:30 Moose: direct your attention towards ECL: Embeddable Common Lisp, a member of the KCL Family, is a Common Lisp implementation initially developed by Giuseppe Attardi and currently maintained by Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll. http://www.cliki.net/ECL 19:53:07 Moose: ECL compiles Common Lisp by translating it to C, which is then compiled by GCC. It might be a good starting point for your work. 19:53:18 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:53:24 Right, I was looking for a sort of instant solution 19:53:26 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:53:34 Moose: How much memory does your device have? (And why are you using Windows 95?) 19:53:53 Moose: at 27MHz, you might wanna look into smaller Lisps 19:53:56 Moose: maybe you want to first explain what lisp it was that you wrote your program in. 19:53:58 chandler: 8 MB 19:54:08 That's kind of tight. 19:54:49 H4ns: It is to be replacing the Windows 95 window manager 19:55:00 Moose: that did not answer my question. 19:55:02 Oh, which Lisp 19:55:03 Harr 19:55:05 Sorry. 19:55:41 clisp + core is 4megs 19:55:57 Moose: If you've written the code, clearly you've already chosen an implementation, since you have been using its specific interface to invoke the Win32 APIs. 19:55:59 The version I used is LISP 1.5 19:56:00 but you will probably need to port it yourself 19:56:06 are you for real? 19:56:09 (...) 19:56:16 fusss: I am beginning to doubt that myself. 19:56:24 chandler: Win32 APis to replace it's window manager? No. 19:56:34 alright 19:56:39 can someone please guide the man to the door? 19:56:45 -!- edon [n=edon@82.114.94.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:56 Moose, you want to replace FILEMAN.EXE, right? 19:56:57 H4ns: I am still leaving open the possibility that he is very confused. 19:57:04 tic: .... no... 19:57:17 chandler: you _must_ be very bored! :) 19:57:20 tic: I doubt you have any idea what you're talking about 19:57:35 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.244.123] has joined #lisp 19:57:53 Moose: fetch a copy of EuLisp or ISLisp or LeLisp and be the first to use them in the new millenium :-) 19:58:16 I will look in to that 19:58:37 various schemes might fit the bill as well 19:59:13 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:00:16 chandler: You didn't complete the graduate program? 20:00:49 *fusss* has a soft spot for fellow enthusiastic idiots 20:01:20 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:26 reikon: No, I did not - though that sort of question would probably be better asked via private /msg. 20:02:51 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:03:36 -!- rread [n=rread@192.18.37.228] has quit [] 20:03:38 -!- ramki [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:04:51 rread [n=rread@192.18.37.228] has joined #lisp 20:05:34 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:08:21 -!- rread [n=rread@192.18.37.228] has quit [Client Quit] 20:09:19 j`ey [n=j`ey@unaffiliated/jey/x-00002] has joined #lisp 20:09:45 mornin' 20:10:38 hijole [i=IceChat7@ppp85-140-164-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:11:13 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 20:12:48 H4ns: herep 20:12:56 sykopomp: t 20:13:16 petere [n=peter@209-6-234-57.c3-0.sbo-ubr3.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:24 H4ns: it seems like our conversation about ht-ajax came to something. I got an e-mail with 0.0.7 attached. 20:13:34 still want to pop it in cl.net and see if anyone adopts it? 20:13:50 sykopomp: i don't, but if you do, i can create you a project for it. 20:14:11 I use it and I have a patch for it, it would be nice if we could resuscitate it 20:14:23 xan: do you want to take care of it, then? :) 20:14:29 (I'm assuming the authors are not around anymore) 20:14:40 (no sign of them, as far as I can tell) 20:15:05 so you two would make a fine team to take it! 20:15:10 I haven't tried contacting them, if you have and there's no reply maybe we can fork it or something 20:15:20 I'm not sure if it's nice to hijack a project just like that 20:15:34 it's BSD, isn't it? 20:15:54 xan: well, if you can find the contact info for the original author, that'd be great. 20:16:05 and we can go from there 20:16:26 well, yes, but don't you need permission to use the actual original name? I'm not sure about that 20:16:42 otherwise 1000 people could create their ht-ajax and it would be really confusing 20:16:49 ah, true 20:17:03 There is a difference between what is legal and what is polite. 20:17:11 as it seems, the original ht-ajax is no longer in existence, so one can assume that both the name and the project are abandoned. 20:17:25 chandler: that's also a good point, but it's also been completely abandoned 20:17:28 i would try to contact the author, and if that is not possible, just create a fork. 20:17:41 -!- ivarrefsdal [n=ivarrefs@sos1-1x-dhcp451.studby.uio.no] has quit [] 20:18:17 yeah, that sounds like the way to go. It seems like a fairly useful utility to use with hunchentoot. I'm not sure if I would actually use it, but it would still be nice. 20:18:47 xan: so you want to be the new maintainer? 20:19:01 If it didn't exist I'd end up doing something quite similar, so I think it's useful yes 20:19:02 so uhh 20:19:06 ive been to therapy 20:19:16 but i still am not very confident when speaking 20:19:19 how do you guys cope :S 20:19:28 H4ns, I'm trying to find any email to ping the guys 20:19:29 Gaaaah! "intel 80189" does not exist! 20:19:31 j`ey: can you please find an appropriate channel? 20:19:35 fusss: "suprise" 20:19:41 surprise even 20:19:49 H4ns: I think he's trying to troll based on the channel name. :) 20:20:03 today seems to be "let's try to prank the lisp wheenies" day 20:20:04 sykopomp: oh shi- :D 20:20:06 sykopomp: but he knows about lisp 1.5 20:20:24 i do like lisp really 20:20:26 fusss, a sophisticated troll 20:20:30 i have seen some very nice code 20:20:33 lnostdal: i just got my SoC t-shirt! 20:20:34 fusss: what's that mean? You lisp your M's, too? 20:21:24 i don't get it sykopomp :-P 20:21:39 M' or M 20:21:54 I thought it was November? 20:22:01 fusss: regular lisp uses only s-expressions. 1.5 has m-expressions. Lisps usually lisp on 's', so 1.5 adds the 'm' 20:22:08 14th, yes 20:22:15 *sykopomp* murders his own joke 20:22:15 j`ey: please leave 20:22:23 awwwww, oh! 20:22:27 H4ns: eh, why? 20:22:38 H4ns: he said, it's november, i said 14th yes :S 20:22:55 jolby [n=joel@c-24-17-183-30.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:28 xan: anyways, drop me a line if you manage to get in touch with the author(s). I'm assuming you have the contact info. I imagine H4ns wants a bump about it too :) 20:23:32 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler 20:23:32 I thought m-expressions were just an unrealized idea? 20:23:49 sykopomp, there's urym@two-bytes.com, but I guess that address is not valid anymore either 20:23:55 -!- chandler has set mode +b *!*n=j`ey@unaffiliated/jey/x-00002 20:23:55 -!- chandler [n=chandler@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has been kicked from #lisp 20:24:22 cbrannon, I think they exist, but didn't spread. I think I've seen M-code. Doesn't really make any sense, but then again, neither does old LISP code. Weird formatting. 20:24:49 cbrannon: nope, none s-exp syntaxes actually got pretty sophistacated later. HOPL2-uncut.pdf has the gorry details. 20:25:10 and um@hottech-israel.com, also dead. sigh 20:25:11 for instance, Interlisp had a well-used other sytanx 20:25:45 cbrannon: In some sense, Dylan is the modern descendent of that idea. 20:26:38 parenscript the antithesis 20:27:17 fusss: You are getting dangerously close to rambling. 20:27:40 sorry 20:27:48 H4ns, if you want to create a project and put the file there so it's available I can be the "maintainer". Not sure what are my duties though :) 20:27:55 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085040.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:29:01 xan: make a basic web page, maybe put it into the vcs of your choice? 20:29:27 H4ns, sure 20:29:33 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-172-113.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:29:33 xan: whatever you can afford to do. i'll create the project now. do you have a c-l.net account? 20:29:55 H4ns, no 20:30:11 xan: please send your pgp public key to rt@common-lisp.net 20:30:24 H4ns, ok 20:30:56 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-187-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 20:31:19 Upon rereading the logs I've decided that Moose is probably a troll, too. 20:31:56 chandler: yes. 20:32:08 -!- chandler [n=chandler@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has been kicked from #lisp 20:32:14 Gr. 20:32:15 I wonder what they gain from it. 20:32:42 now drop the cinnamon roll, you're making me nervous! 20:32:57 -!- chandler has set mode -b *!*=Horehoun@*.160.144.36.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx 20:33:15 -!- chandler has set mode +b *!*@unaffiliated/moose 20:34:10 tic: wait, I'm still looking for the mode switch that makes all trolls speak in igpay atinlay. 20:34:16 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:43 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 20:35:09 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 20:36:05 chandler, hey, Lisp is the AI language of choice, right? 20:36:21 tic has become a troll now, too! 20:37:21 me should probably just preempt the entire problem and just empty the channel. 20:37:43 *drewc* uses just just a few too many times.. just so. 20:37:44 tic: utbay isplay isay owslay... 20:37:51 drewc: ILTWYS"J" 20:38:03 chandler, jag kan inte pig latin, tyvärr. :/ (bork bork) 20:38:20 OK. I don't understand that, so clearly tic is a troll. 20:38:33 *chandler* fires up the proton pack and dons the cinnamon roll 20:38:50 *tic* hides behind the 'spec 20:38:55 (should be thick enough) 20:39:17 And you guys run on about how a relevant question is wasting time. 20:39:26 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:39:37 Oh no. 20:39:42 Not that discussion again :( 20:40:14 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 20:41:26 So, what interesting problems are you folks solving in Lisp? 20:41:28 schme, solved your SQL import problem? 20:41:48 tic: Nope. I don't think there is any way to get around it. 20:42:03 schme, so it's 13h import and backup the binary? 20:42:04 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 20:42:12 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 20:42:21 Riastradh: Not so much solving. Today is refactoring day :) 20:42:26 schme, why did you need sql anyway? I thought you had Lisp all the way down. 20:42:29 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:42:39 schme: 13h import for how much data? 20:42:47 tic: I doubt it will be a 13h import. This database has much less items. 20:42:52 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:43:14 H4ns: I don't quite remember. I had a file with some INSERTs and I told sqlite3 to .read it.. Maybe it was half a million or something? 20:43:16 schme, alright, let's hope so. 20:43:19 H4ns: It took forever anyway :) 20:43:48 tic: I think lisp all the way down would be not so good an idea. 20:44:50 tic: The plan now is to make it somewhat modular so one can add databases as one wishes, as long as one writes the backend for the specific database so the software can actually use it. 20:45:00 Which works quite nice at the moment. 20:45:06 hmm 20:45:24 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.16] has joined #lisp 20:45:56 tic: I think having all the fooditems in anything but a database sounds a bit strange :) 20:47:51 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:07 kami-` [n=user@p4FD39512.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:48:35 schme, database != sql. 20:48:40 H4ns: 665k INSERTs 20:48:47 you can have an object store in Lisp. 20:48:56 tic: Sure. But what would be the benefit? 20:49:30 schme, easier inspection, possibly speed? 20:50:03 Hmm.. it seems to be working very fast at the moment though, so I dunno about that. 20:50:09 What do you mean easier inspection though? 20:50:37 Strike that. 20:50:40 (the only slow part is ploticus) 20:51:20 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:51:28 I'll work around the ploticus issue somehow :) 20:52:56 tic: Of course there is no one stopping anyone from putting data in a more lispy format and use that, as long as it sets up the right callbacks for browsing the stuffs, and generating output data, etc. 20:52:59 now to let the program churn for about 4 hours :D 20:53:06 my poor CPU 20:57:09 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 20:57:19 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:57:31 tic: and more importantly the sql makes it easier to use the emacs :) 20:59:33 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 21:02:05 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 21:02:27 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:02:42 -!- reikon [n=thomas@unaffiliated/reikon] has left #lisp 21:03:10 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.250.172] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:03:28 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@81.90.21.226] has quit ["leaving"] 21:03:41 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.250.172] has joined #lisp 21:04:20 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD39512.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:24 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:15 Savant [n=savant@unaffiliated/Savant] has joined #lisp 21:10:12 rread [n=rread@192.18.37.228] has joined #lisp 21:11:02 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:23 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:13:30 schme, sql makes it easier to use emacs? hmm. 21:14:29 SQL does what, you say? 21:15:15 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:16:11 <``Erik> wow, I'm a vim guy, but I didn't think emacs was quite THAT bad O.O 21:17:17 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:18:22 insert 'A' INTO mycode.lisp AS mycode WHERE point=35 21:18:55 fortunately you can write an elisp function to do all that 21:19:54 tic: It makes it easier for me to use the data with mah emacs, ya. 21:20:28 schme, do you have an sql mode? 21:20:48 Hmm.. no. 21:21:07 But good sql support. 21:21:09 So what makes SQL data so appropriate for Emacs? I don't quite understand. 21:21:17 Alright, like editing SQL statements? 21:21:23 and I suppose I could use FFI for libsql 21:21:27 -!- petere [n=peter@209-6-234-57.c3-0.sbo-ubr3.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 21:22:01 Ah. no I'm not saying it's the most appropriate tool, I'm saying having it in a sql database makes it easier for me to use the data with other stuff than this CLIM app. 21:22:08 Like the emacs app I have for it. 21:22:13 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:20 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:22:24 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 21:25:09 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.170.110] has joined #lisp 21:26:17 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:18 If I ever end up needing this stuff for something not CL it'd be shit to have it stored off in sexps though :) 21:27:07 Anyone know about the 2.0 version of the lispnyc website? 21:27:11 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:50 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:49 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 21:30:29 xan: only that the link to the tarball is missing :) 21:30:40 H4ns, working on it! :) 21:32:29 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 21:32:52 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.244.123] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:16 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:38 -!- dnolen_ [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-142-24.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:35:19 H4ns: ping 21:35:26 fe[nl]ix: ack 21:35:55 I can't login to c-l.net 21:36:06 I get a "PTY allocation request failed on channel 0" 21:36:08 -!- hijole [i=IceChat7@ppp85-140-164-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit ["Life without danger is a waste of oxygen"] 21:37:36 interesting. try again 21:37:37 :) 21:37:50 *H4ns* holds on to his open xterm on c-l.net 21:37:59 got it again 21:38:21 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:25 see this post: http://platonic.techfiz.info/2008/10/13/pty-allocation-request-failed-on-channel-0/ 21:39:10 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 21:39:27 drewc: for you! 21:39:28 :) 21:39:36 sykopomp, http://common-lisp.net/projects/ht-ajax/ that's it for today :) 21:39:44 maybe tomorrow I can commit my patch and some more stuff 21:39:48 good night everyone 21:39:59 xan: cool, thanks! 21:41:04 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has left #lisp 21:41:39 xan: i'll add a link to the doc, if that's ok 21:41:40 cl-net:~# ls -l /dev/ptmx 21:41:40 crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 5, 2 2008-10-09 10:46 /dev/ptmx 21:41:55 so this is not the problem. 21:42:27 fe[nl]ix: and i can log in without issue, 21:42:36 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 21:42:45 drewc: is devpts is mounted onto /dev/pts ? 21:42:58 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 21:45:16 negative, we do not use devpts 21:45:47 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:46:04 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:46:11 which is probably the issue really 21:46:34 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:46:38 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 21:49:35 -!- Savant [n=savant@unaffiliated/Savant] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:49:51 drewc: could you mount it to see if it solves the problem ? 21:50:04 fe[nl]ix: indeed, that's what i'm going to try 21:50:08 Savant [n=savant@unaffiliated/Savant] has joined #lisp 21:51:54 -!- Savant [n=savant@unaffiliated/Savant] has quit [Client Quit] 21:52:52 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:31 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43] has joined #lisp 21:55:37 nunb_ [n=Nandan@217.133.104.225] has joined #lisp 21:57:01 fe[nl]ix: ok, that should do it. 21:57:25 ok, it works now 21:58:04 dcrampsie@cl-net:~$ ls /dev/pts 21:58:04 0 1 2 3 21:58:24 it was not mounted and the udev package was not installed :) 22:03:32 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:04:39 Savant [n=savant@unaffiliated/Savant] has joined #lisp 22:08:03 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:11:13 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3ABA1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:11:41 -!- mikael [n=woha@c-7642e353.027-10-67766c2.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 22:12:41 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:12:53 -!- nunb [n=Nandan@213-140-17-106.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:02 -!- H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:11 H4ns [n=hans@70.91.193.41] has joined #lisp 22:17:12 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:24 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:21:22 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.225.171] has quit ["Eric Raymond can code in emacs using one finger."] 22:24:48 -!- nside [n=nside@bas1-quebec14-1128687045.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:47 etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:51 if anyone has a working asdf-install installation and hunchentoot and a minute, could you try (asdf-install:install :ht-ajax) ? thanks! 22:28:53 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD39512.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:33 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176023269.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:30:15 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:31:09 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 22:31:18 Just out of interest, in Lispy terminology, (let ((a (lambda ()))) (labels ((b ())) . . . . what would you call a and what would you call b? a is a variable containing a function, b is . . . ? 22:31:48 Modius: a local function? 22:32:26 I'll broaden the question - if there was a (defun c ()) - what name would encompass both b and c? Named function? 22:33:13 H4ns: Server responded 404 for GET http://common-lisp.net/project/ht-ajax/files/ht-ajax.tar.gz.asc 22:33:13 22:33:35 gah. how do i make such an asc file, anyone? 22:34:07 Modius: fbound symbol 22:34:16 Thanks 22:35:23 H4ns: gpg --armor --sign 22:36:26 ah. so now i make up a new key so that i can sign the darn thing. and that adds what, security? 22:36:35 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl9-100-102.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:38:18 -!- etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.4 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 22:40:10 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3ABA1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:40:54 H4ns: it installs :) does ht-ajax write javascript for you ? 22:40:58 H4ns: authenticity 22:41:11 lhz: no, i've got no stakes in it. 22:41:19 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:41:31 lhz: so the signature is optional? then i'll not create a fake key. 22:41:41 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 22:42:04 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:42:29 H4ns: the signature is "worthless" until we meet in real life an does an key exchange or through a series of persons we've trusted by irl methods. 22:42:40 chandler: around? 22:42:52 lhz: i was not really asking for an explanation. i just meant to rant a little. 22:43:37 H4ns: hm .. component "ht-ajax-test" not found 22:43:47 H4ns: rant acknowledged. 22:44:28 danlei: ok - well, that is up to the new maintainer to fix :) 22:44:36 danlei: but thank you for trying. 22:44:38 -!- Savant [n=savant@unaffiliated/Savant] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:44:55 H4ns: you're welcome 22:45:00 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:45:01 Savant [n=savant@unaffiliated/Savant] has joined #lisp 22:49:06 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:17 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 22:49:21 ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-136-36-191.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:53:36 pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:23 -!- nunb_ [n=Nandan@217.133.104.225] has quit [] 22:55:47 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:55:59 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 22:57:03 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:00:05 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:02:25 -!- ivanst [i=ivans@78-1-151-194.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:03:24 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 23:03:41 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:04:49 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:06:17 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:28 pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 23:08:47 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:04 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 23:13:46 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-36-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 23:14:46 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.170.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:14:51 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:21:14 bertskert [n=Marcus@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:23:07 do you know any good way to share code-files during development? I don't need version control, and have no exp with cvs. Do you know some free ftp area / web area where you can shar files easily? 23:23:49 bertskert: google groups has file sharing. 23:24:35 -!- rread [n=rread@192.18.37.228] has quit [] 23:24:53 bertskert: learning a version control is really probably worth it ... github will host the repo, too (free if it's public). 23:25:10 a-stray-cat1 [n=hoc@pc2.cs.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 23:25:16 *H4ns* agrees 23:25:23 hullo, is there any way to delay a quote? 23:25:45 say i have `(eval (car `(a b))) 23:25:53 i want 'a from that 23:26:11 but the first quote applies to the whole thing :( 23:26:57 thx 23:27:10 a-stray-cat1: `(eval ,(car '(a b)))? 23:27:16 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DE9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:27:22 or is that not what you want? 23:27:29 hm? 23:27:40 basically, i have a list (a b) and i just want 'a :/ 23:28:02 a-stray-cat1: (eval (car '(''a b))) --> 'A 23:28:26 i already have the list (a b) 23:28:37 a-stray-cat1: if you have a list (a b) then: (let ((list '(a b))) (list 'quote (car list))) 23:28:50 i see 23:28:54 thanks, ill try that 23:28:56 But it's strange to be wanting 'A. In general, people want A. 23:29:46 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:29:53 *H4ns* reads eval, gives up on trying to apply psychic mind reading skills 23:30:50 dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:56 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:33:58 explicit use of eval considered harmful, except where eval is needed. 23:34:53 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 23:36:49 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:46 a-stray-cat1: what nobody seems to want to tell you is that whatever you are trying to do must be horribly horribly wrong for you to desire such a thing. 23:40:04 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 23:41:08 Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:26 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:42:34 What is the most portable lisp implementation? Anything that can be compiled with gcc <= 2.95.3? 23:42:55 Quadrescence: gcc was not a lisp compiler, last i looked. 23:43:28 H4ns: I know. I meant to compile a compiler with gcc. 23:44:40 Actually, hrm. 23:44:48 Quadrescence: portability of lisp implementations is not only determined by the c compiler that is needed to compile its runtime. typically, common lisp implementations require another common lisp implementation to bootstrap themselves. there are exceptions. 23:45:15 Quadrescence: consider rephrasing your question. 23:45:21 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:45:37 H4ns: I guess the first question should just be scratched entirelt. 23:45:41 -t+y 23:45:45 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:06 I think gcl should work, but gcc is not. 23:46:16 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:46:16 Which is, of course, out of the scope of this channel. 23:46:49 Quadrescence: try ECL. 23:47:59 i guess clisp is most portable/ported 23:49:46 <_deepfire> ECL is surprisingly good -- it has threads on win32. 23:50:45 <_deepfire> A feat which is quote impressive for a natively compiling Lisp. 23:51:02 <_deepfire> er, quite 23:51:14 jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:52 ahaas: you around? 23:53:00 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.181.189] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:53:04 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:53:05 fusss: yes 23:53:12 drewc: stassats: Thanks for the information. 23:53:26 i gotta send you a private message, ok? 23:53:29 ok 23:55:01 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@5.pool85-49-163.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:57:31 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless06.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:57:41 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["Leaving"]