00:02:01 But I still think that it is a good read. cltl2 is a bit cumbersome, because of all the change bars; just cltl1 is a little nicer to read. 00:02:13 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.99.204] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:51 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.138.239] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:03:06 there is a little bit of cltl2 at http://books.google.com/books?id=8Hr3ljbCtoAC&printsec=frontcover 00:04:30 Yeah, all those "X3J13 voted in .." 00:08:06 beach: herep 00:08:57 -!- jsimonss_ [n=jesse@urda-140.teknologforeningen.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:09:09 An Ansi CL draft is available in LaTex, I hope that some time I find some time to turn it into a rich HTML rendition, like I did with the clim spec. The LaTeX source is very eloborate about refering to the various meanings of symbols. 00:09:12 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:09:20 We'll know CL has *really* had a renaissance when there's a CLTL3 that takes out all the change bars and brings it in complete accordance with the spec. 00:10:05 gilberth: how would that differ from the Hyperspec? 00:10:31 gigamonkey: Annotation support for one thing. backward hyperlinks for another. 00:11:13 Ah. 00:12:02 -!- elurin [n=user@85.104.132.54] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:12:03 Adrinael [n=adrinael@2001:14b8:1fe:0:0:0:0:1] has joined #lisp 00:12:12 I wonder if the Lispworks folks continue to hold any part of the rights in the Hyperspec. I.e. if someone wanted to do an "official" updated Hyperspec could the Lispworks folks give you permission? Or would KMP have to agree? 00:12:40 Well, I if have followed discussion correctly, I am free to do just that, as long as I base my work on the original LaTex. 00:13:22 Is that LaTex public domain? (I haven't really followed the discussions.) 00:13:55 gilberth: The LaTeX source also has a few bugs in it wrt symbols. There's at least one place where it uses a function reference when the surrounding text clearly indicates a variable reference (or was it the other way around)? 00:14:18 AIUI, KMP held the copyright personally. 00:14:25 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.242.184] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:28 gigamonkey: I am not sure about that; It certainly is available somewhere. And it's the last draft. IIRC it doesn't come with a discalimer. 00:14:44 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@2001:14b8:1fe:0:0:0:0:1] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:14:52 nyef: To the ansi standard? 00:15:01 Yeah. 00:15:03 *stassats* has dpans somewhere on hard-disk 00:15:07 What would really be nice is a texinfo version of the hyperspec ... for viewing in Emacs. 00:15:15 I forget where I read that, but it apparently caused some problems in terms of publication. 00:15:25 KMP talked about issue of the copyright of the dpANS at OOPSLA. I sort of faded out halfway-through, I'm sorry to say. 00:15:26 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-058-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:15:27 nyef: I find that hard to believe. I'd assume ANSI holds the copyright. 00:15:28 cbrannon: I think there's one or two out there. 00:15:46 hmm. 00:15:56 I could believe KMP has the copyright on the CLHS. 00:15:58 rme: That might have been it. Recently, wasn't it? I think I saw something about it linked from planet lisp. 00:16:09 He was quite adamant, though that ANSI does *not* own the copyright to the dpANS, since they a) didn't produce it, and b) didn't fund its production. 00:16:39 iirc most discussion revoled about the hyperspec; the what ever work they did to create that, i'll duplicate. 00:16:40 I am more admantier than thou 00:17:33 So, dpans is owned by kmp, is that what you say? 00:17:55 Just think, if we had stuck with the original 17 year term for copyright, these discussions would be moot in a few years. 00:18:06 Or was that just patents? 00:18:08 Franz did a hyperspec-like thing, too, I think. I don't suppose there's anything stopping another one from being created. 00:18:52 rme: That was my line of thinking. 00:18:59 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:20:08 gigamonkey: Isn't copyright way more long term? 00:20:49 jsimonss [n=jesse@urda-140.teknologforeningen.fi] has joined #lisp 00:21:08 Something like upteens years beyond the dead of the author? 00:21:09 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:21:39 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:57 gilberth: Only because of a certain disney mouse, itself an obvious rip-off of an earlier character of someone else's of which they used to do contract animation. 00:22:21 ISTR that it was something like 17 years or N years beyond the death of the author, whichever comes first. 00:22:32 elurin [n=user@85.104.132.54] has joined #lisp 00:22:58 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 00:23:25 Reasoning being that the creator deserves a period of exclusive control, but also allows said creator to see what others make of their work before they die. 00:23:27 nyef: Definitly not around here, here it's N years after the dead of the author. 00:23:36 Fair enough. 00:23:47 I'm mostly remembering the US version. 00:23:51 Or misremembering it. 00:24:33 So as long as I am alive I hold the copyright on Closure, parts of mcclim, and I on top of that I have no way to donate that to public domain. 00:25:38 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@210.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 00:25:48 Per Wikipedia: "the Copyright Act of 1790. The Act secured an author the exclusive right to publish and vend "maps, charts and books" for a term of 14 years, with the right of renewal for one additional 14 year term if the author was still alive." 00:26:05 -!- proprietarystink [n=Nathan@cpe-76-171-200-51.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 00:27:00 Speaking as an author, that seems about right. After 14 (or 28) years, you're eiether done making money off your creation or you've made so much money that who cares. 00:27:12 gigamonkey: Interesting, so it's 28 years top in the USA? So how does Disney manage to still hold right on the mouse of theirs? 00:27:21 gilberth: no, that was is 1790. 00:27:40 It was doubled to 28/28 in 1909. 00:27:48 Then 75 or 50+life of author in 1976. 00:27:52 Disney periodically pays for retroactive extensions to the copyright period. 00:28:01 Then much longer in 1998. 00:28:21 (And apparently has screwed a few people who were legally republishing old works that way.) 00:28:59 it's time corporations are banned from owning copyrights whatsoever anyway 00:29:08 but, well, that's never gonna happen 00:29:11 -!- getha is now known as thijso 00:29:13 gigamonkey: This is the line of thinking, I have. I have a rule: I publish, if choose to publish, code only under a "real free" (tm) license like BSD or MIT. If you can make money out of it, fine with me. 00:29:14 Currently seems to be 95 or 120 or life of author + 70. I'm not sure when it's 95 and when it's 120. 00:29:44 *stassats* recalls removing from wikipedia parts of old russian encyclopedia due to changes too the russian copyright law 00:29:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:29:51 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:30:04 gilberth: I do that too with code. However I'd be sad if someone other than Apress started printing copies of PCL and selling them without paying me any royalties. I'm not sure where the difference comes from. 00:30:45 Possibly from the more direct utility of code? 00:31:11 gigamonkey: Because a book is more painful to produce? Or because a book is a physical object? 00:32:18 On the other hand, I'd also be sad if many years from now PCL was still considered a useful reference (or historical artifact or whatever) and folks wanted to convert it to the latest greatest text-transmission technology are were unable to do so because I was dead and my heirs were nowhere to be found. 00:32:30 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 00:32:32 gilberth: Could be. 00:32:56 I personally wouldn't care, I am contemplating about writing a CLIM book for some time. What would be important for me, would be to get it out on dead trees. Which also is a strange notation given the current technology. 00:33:05 Probably not because it's a physical object. 00:33:07 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F419.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:33:47 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:59 Perhaps because it's more of a "unitary" object. With code there are a lot of ways someone else might be able to make use of my creation including ways where they mix in their own work. 00:34:00 gilberth: a good clim book would be great 00:34:08 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:23 With a book, that could happen (esp. with translations) but more likely is someone would just rip it off and try to sell it. 00:35:38 *stassats* participated sometime in a collective translation of PCL to Russian, but didn't look at it for a long time 00:35:49 Still, I wonder, what is the difference, one could as well rip of your code and sell it or make money from that. 00:35:50 stassats: I think it's progressed pretty well. 00:36:13 Assuming it was the one I know about, that was done with my (and Apress's) blessing. 00:36:38 yeah, seems to be that one 00:37:02 gilberth: true. Maybe it's just that I haven't written any one piece of cade that was as much work as writting PCL. 00:39:11 gigamonkey: That might be it. Closure for instance is ten years on and off pain. So I figure a book would be one to two years just more pain, seems pale compared to that. 00:39:55 Though i am a bad and slow writer, a thing that I'd realy like to change. 00:40:32 gigamonkey: Going back a bit, could you write something into your will granting blanket permission for electronic copies and similar derivative works to be made? 00:40:33 Don't underestimate the pain of writing a book. ;-) 00:41:17 nyef: As a USAian I could probably just throw it into the public domain. Though I'm encumbered by having sold some of my rights in the book to Apress. 00:41:29 gigamonkey: I really don't. I envy everybody how manages to finish such an undertaking. 00:41:30 Fair enough. 00:41:50 But assuming they let it go out of print I'm pretty sure all the right revert back to me. 00:42:35 I should probably actually do that--I'm always annoyed when the heirs of some author are running around making a pain of themselves. 00:42:44 gigamonkey: Sure?! IIRC Grahm bought back his right on On Lisp to be able to publish it online. 00:43:08 Just on principle--I rather doubt my heirs will be in much of a position to bother anyone. 00:43:52 gilberth: it probably depends on the contract. I know some rights revert to me under Apress's contract if they let it go out of print for more than X time. 00:44:27 gigamonkey: So, is there any easy advice you can give an auther in spe? 00:44:40 "spe"? 00:45:02 in spe [latin] roughly: in hope 00:45:21 *nyef* listens carefully. 00:45:23 Ah, how about "avoid Latinate phrases your readers may not understand". ;-) 00:45:59 Have you read this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/blog/2007/04/10/how-to-write-a-book.html 00:46:27 gigamonkey: Well, that's another thing, I am not a native english speaker. In educated german cycles "in spe" in commonly understook. ;/ 00:46:36 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:47:17 gilberth: it's not a common Latinate phrase in English 00:47:45 Fair enough. That's the kind of thing that, in theory, editors would help you with. I can't really speak to that as I got basically no editing from Apress except for the final copy-editing for punctuation, etc. 00:47:47 gigamonkey: So you focus on designing the book, that is crafting an outline and filling in the missing parts? 00:48:35 gilberth, in English one would often just write `a hopeful author', or `an aspiring author' if one prefers Latin words. 00:48:56 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 00:49:18 gilberth: Well, that was how I did it. For me, assuming I have say 2000-5000 words worth of stuff to say, I can figure out the right 2000-5000 words with which to say it. 00:49:22 Riastradh: I figure that. It's the little cultural difference one has to observe. 00:49:24 That's not my problem. 00:49:26 Is this a non-fiction-only algorithm, or does it apply to fiction as well? 00:49:52 The problem is when you have several hundred thousand words' worth of stuff to say, you need to break that down into managble chunks. 00:50:07 nyef: non-fiction only, probably. 00:50:21 *gigamonkey* has had no success writing fiction. 00:50:31 I won't see why that can't apply fiction too. 00:50:38 Writing fiction requires one to be sufficiently insane to think multiple persons' thoughts. 00:51:01 jso [n=user@151.159.200.15] has joined #lisp 00:51:45 One piece of advice I've seen in several places is to set aside "writing time" every day, and to use that time for writing-related things, if not actual writing. 00:52:03 nyef: actually that algorithm doesn't even apply to the book I'm working on now. 00:52:19 A variant on this is to not set aside writing time, but still to make sure that you get some writing done every day. 00:52:20 That's good advice. Wish I'd done that. ;-) 00:52:30 gigamonkey: Is English your native language? 00:52:35 gilberth: yes. 00:52:37 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 00:52:59 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:15 gigamonkey: I see. 00:53:26 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:53:45 nyef: On the other hand, I read one writer warning about getting to religious about your writing. If you can *only* write at your special desk, with your special pencil, sharpened just so, you won't be able to write when you get a few odd minutes in the day. 00:53:55 I'm finding, for now, that making sure something gets done every day is helping with SBCL/ARM. 00:54:21 I figure, I would have problems on the micro scale, too. 00:54:29 Even if that something is just reading documentation and code for various things. 00:54:54 Yeah, there's ritual, and then there's taking ritual too far. 00:55:41 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:10 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:57:08 gilberth: there are some good books on micro-level style in English. 00:57:36 Hang on a sec and I'll get you a title. 00:57:59 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- elurin [n=user@85.104.132.54] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- rswarbrick [n=rupert@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- _schulte_ [n=Eric@c-98-203-235-80.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- bert2 [n=po@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.73.110] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1DCDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- algowuz [n=n-1@79.99.2.65] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279776357.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- yahooooo3 [n=yahooooo@c-24-19-6-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- delYsid [n=user@debian/developer/mlang] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:58:20 gigamonkey: Sure, and i am definitly willing to learn. But I figure a good lector, would be a must in my case. 00:58:38 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:07 Of course there is the invaluable little book of Strunk & White. 00:59:10 One of the things I'm hoping is that my port log for SBCL/ARM will be good source material for some articles or something. 00:59:36 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:59:49 (And I kindof wish I had kept such a log for SBCL/Win32.) 00:59:56 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 01:00:04 Riastradh: I'm not a big fan of Strunk & White. 01:00:24 I grew up on it though but it's got a lot of stupid advice in it. 01:00:50 What about Strunk? I'm sure that's freely available these days... 01:01:53 It has flaws, but I immensely enjoy reading what Strunk & White have to say, and the vast majority of its advice is useful and helpful. 01:03:11 ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.73.110] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 elurin [n=user@85.104.132.54] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 rswarbrick [n=rupert@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 _schulte_ [n=Eric@c-98-203-235-80.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 bert2 [n=po@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 segv [n=mb@p4FC1DCDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 algowuz [n=n-1@79.99.2.65] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279776357.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 yahooooo3 [n=yahooooo@c-24-19-6-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 delYsid [n=user@debian/developer/mlang] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:13 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:03:13 z0d [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #lisp 01:03:20 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:03:25 -!- mgr_ [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:03:31 I think that any manual of style is at best a guide, not an absolute authority. 01:03:43 nyef, yes, Strunk's book is now in the public domain -- apropos of which, John Cowan has his own revision, Strunk & Cowan, floating about somewhere in the intertubes. 01:03:48 Yes, absolutely -- so to speak. 01:03:56 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:04:40 I looked briefly at Strunk & White, the gist of it seemed to be "don't say more than you have to". 01:05:37 That reduces it more than is possible, kilimanjaro. There is plenty of advice other than `omit needless words' in it. 01:06:20 Sure. Wasn't there also "omit needless words" and "omit needless words" as well? ^_- 01:06:43 The nice thing about the Williams book I linked to is it breaks things down a bit more to show what works and what doesn't. 01:07:12 (Yes, I know, there's also information on when and how to use commas, the proper use of semicolons and so on.) 01:07:25 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A26848.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 01:07:29 S&W tends to be useful if you want to avoid various "grammatical" shibboleths that some folks care a lot about. 01:07:48 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:07:49 A much better usage guide is Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage 01:07:57 *gilberth* places commas way too often 01:08:06 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 01:08:13 And if you're going to pick a fight with a copyeditor, bring a copy of the latest Chicago Manual of Style. 01:08:32 gigamonkey, is Merriam-Webster's derived from Fowler's? 01:08:35 (Bloody thing is bigger than CLtL2.) 01:09:12 *gilberth* blaims his completly in-competent English teaches. 01:09:13 No. Merriam-Webster's is an actual work of scholarship that tracks down where various "rules" came from. 01:09:40 It's useful if you want to fight against silliness such as that described here: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000918.html 01:10:35 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:03 gigamonkey: Language Log FTW. 01:11:58 Tordek [n=tordek@host67.190-227-44.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:12:07 Can I assign a single value to multiple variables in a single step? 01:12:09 this is English. there are no rules. 01:12:21 Seriously, I only really learned English after leaving school. Figuring that English is the lingua franca made me dig it. 01:12:28 more like.... suggestions 01:12:35 antoszka: (setf x (setf y (setf z value))) 01:13:02 If by 'step' you mean 'line of code'. 01:13:09 gilberth: I wonder if the French call it lingua anglais now 01:13:31 Adamant: perhaps. 01:13:39 Adamant: what's annnoying is that many of the so-called "rules" were just flat-out made up with almost no regard to how people actually use/used the language. 01:13:58 gigamonkey: thx 01:14:05 gigamonkey: or (setf x value y x z y) 01:14:13 I just ignore them all. if the average person can understand me, then it's all good. 01:14:23 kpreid: Only works if the place x has no side-effects. 01:14:35 they said "variable" :-) 01:14:43 Fair point. 01:15:17 on the other hand, (setf (values x y z) (values-list (make-list 3 :initial-element value))) 01:15:20 Or could (setf (values x y z) (apply #'values (make-list... 01:15:28 Yeah, that. 01:15:54 I'd have said it sooner if I hadn't stopped to confirm that values-list was what I thought it was 01:16:07 I was trying to remember the arglist for make-list. 01:16:08 gigamonkey: I also never really remember anything about natural language grammars as opposed to formal language ones 01:16:19 [Anyhow, my teachers were that bad, that they led 't' pass for 'th' [a sound that doesn't exist in German], it was very painful to re-teach myself that "th" /= "t". So much for German education.] 01:16:22 (quick! explain exactly what VALUES, VALUES-LIST, and MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND all do) 01:16:46 er, multiple-value-list I meant 01:16:48 gilberth: bad teachers are everywhre 01:16:53 *everywhere 01:17:24 One of these days, someone is going to ask for MULTIPLE-VALUE-DESTRUCTURING-BIND. 01:19:36 (m-v-d-b x (y) x) = (multiple-value-list (y)) ? 01:19:58 gigamonkey, to be honest, I find that language log post to be rather unnecessarily plaintive. The author observes that `informal does not mean correct'; contrariwise, a phrase need not be incorrect or uninterpretable to be clumsy in writing. Extra time spent on the author's part to refine the phrasing will be extra time saved on the reader's part understanding precisely what the author meant. 01:20:17 kpreid: No, because the first parameter to m-v-d-b is a destructuring lambda list. 01:20:38 It'd have to be (m-v-d-b (&rest x) (y) x). 01:20:48 hm, I thought that worked 01:21:32 Riastradh: Fair enough. The question is whether the "corrections" suggested by copy editors are actually refining the phrasing in a way that makes it any easier to understand. 01:23:00 And that depends, in great part, on how good your copyeditor is. 01:23:25 gigamonkey, if those were the only changes proposed by the author, then the complaint would have more merit, but I imagine that there were many others than what Pilgrim listed. Undoubtedly the repetitive ones lending to generalization stuck in Pilgrim's memory better. 01:23:30 -!- gilberth [n=gilbert@c149234.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit ["good night to everyone"] 01:23:47 My experience with the copyediting of PCL was the copyeditor mostly seemed to be mechanically applying "rules" that are not actually consistently followed by good writers. 01:24:38 Well, I didn't keep score so my memory could also be faulty but "many others" would be pretty wildly overstating it. 01:25:12 gigamonkey: That leads to the question, how hard would it be to automate that job for the most part? (not that it hasn't already been done with Word's grammar checker) 01:25:30 And the "best" corrections were not actual corrections that made it better--they were ones where there was actually a problem in the sentence and their correction was so bad I was forced to just recast the whole thing. 01:26:18 That's probably not quite fair--obviously the places where they caught something that I agreeed with, I just accepted without much thought. 01:29:10 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 01:30:37 nyef: I semi-automated it. I had some elisp that searched for all the patterns the copy-editor seemed to care about and then I'd see if I could "fix" them according to the rules they were applying. 01:32:43 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 01:32:52 Gotta go eat. 01:33:14 Enjoy. 01:33:34 I'm going to disappear for the evening myself. 01:38:11 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 01:39:48 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a9b-202.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:41:18 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 01:49:14 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:51 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host67.190-227-44.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:47 Stalley [n=stalley0@ppp-70-135-169-232.dsl.elpstx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:00 -!- Stalley [n=stalley0@ppp-70-135-169-232.dsl.elpstx.swbell.net] has left #lisp 01:55:40 x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 01:58:04 njsg_ [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 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[n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:29 delYsid [n=user@debian/developer/mlang] has joined #lisp 02:09:30 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:48 crod [n=cmell@cb8a9b-202.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:13:17 what is the safest way to determine a file size so you can create a large enough buffer for it before calling READ-SEQUENCE? 02:13:50 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a9b-202.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:14:22 clhs file-length 02:14:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_file_l.htm 02:14:41 is the really accurate? 02:14:53 i heard of some caveats attached to it, no remember what exactly 02:15:21 td123 [n=Tom@isr6699.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 02:15:28 don't know 02:16:35 something about locale dependent character width 02:17:17 -!- td123 [n=Tom@isr6699.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 02:17:23 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:12 anyway, there seems to be no any other facility in the standard 02:19:38 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:22:29 fusss: As a practical matter, I would expect FILE-LENGTH to return the number of octets in a file. This may or may not be the same as the number of characters in the file. 02:22:54 yeah 02:23:13 and number of octets is an upperbound, always enough 02:23:39 just up to me to pass the buffer to Pango and let it do its unicode futzing 02:23:39 Is mapcan destructive? 02:23:54 Draggor: none of the map* functions are destructive 02:24:06 Just making sure 02:24:18 unless your function argument has side effects 02:24:26 fusss: mapinto? 02:24:36 -!- wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:24:36 stassats: touche 02:24:57 I really don't understand what's going on with my code 02:25:07 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 02:25:08 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:26:28 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:30:09 fusss_ [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:50 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:30:52 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 02:30:56 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:31:07 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 02:31:35 -!- njsg_ [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["sleeptime!"] 02:32:00 -!- emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:32:06 http://paste.lisp.org/display/69986 02:32:21 *tournament* is an object 02:32:41 ebzzry__ [n=rmm@124.217.73.110] has joined #lisp 02:32:52 all of them are 02:33:01 I'm just trying to get a list of the lowest level there. 02:33:04 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:33:09 For some reason it's changing the value 02:33:37 don't know what is wrong with your code, but instead of #'(lambda (b) (bracket-contestant-list b)) you can write #'bracket-contestant-list 02:34:15 Good point, heh 02:34:20 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:35:06 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.153] has joined #lisp 02:35:42 Draggor: it can't be said by that paste what is wrong, not all functions are defined 02:35:47 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:36:04 all functions listed that aren't shown there are accessors created by clos 02:37:28 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-60.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:40:06 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:32 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.153] has quit [] 02:43:57 though, mapcan actually is destructive 02:43:58 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-225-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:07 (let ((x '(1 2 3 4))) (mapcan (lambda (y) (if (evenp y) '(15) x)) '(1 2)) x) 02:44:42 it does (nconc x '(15)) 02:45:35 ahh 02:45:36 okay 02:45:39 I understand, thanks stassats 02:45:47 nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:35 holycow 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03:54:54 Praveen: you need to show your actual code. 03:55:01 Use lisppaste. 03:55:05 lispaste: url 03:55:09 paste: url 03:55:11 bah! 03:55:20 http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 03:55:29 you probably want to say (return-from a) instead of just return (which exits the loop) 03:55:30 Praveen: return will return from the loop, not the function (because loop includes an implicit NIL block, and RETURN actually does RETURN-FROM NIL) 03:55:57 ohh how to i exit a loop ? 03:56:13 RETURN should work. 03:56:19 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 03:56:28 (return-from fn-name) ?? 03:56:41 Do you want to return from the loop or the function? 03:56:51 Of course if the loop is the only thing in the function, it doesn't really matter. 03:57:09 praveen pasted "return statement" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69990 03:58:50 (return-from works thank u 03:59:01 So should RETURN, in the code you pasted. 03:59:19 Ah, execpt that you always return T. 03:59:22 From the function. 03:59:45 I.e. your RETURN returns NIL from the loop but then the last expression in the function, T, is evaluated and returned as the value of the function. 04:01:09 but then when the condition is never satisfied in the loop it must return T 04:02:13 gigamonkey annotated #69990 with "You could write it like this." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69990#1 04:02:34 Look at that annotation. 04:03:12 With a NEVER clause, LOOP will return T if the condition is never met and NIL otherwise, which, it seems, is exactly what you want. 04:05:01 gigamonkey annotated #69990 with "Gah! Didn't notice that bare SETF. Do it like this." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69990#2 04:05:28 thank u gigamonkey 04:05:39 Note also annotation #2--it's very important that you not use SETF like that unless you are really intending to set a global variable. In which case it should be named *D* not D. 04:07:24 And if that VAR is really a global variable it should also be named *VAR* 04:08:51 gigamonkey annotated #69990 with "Whoops, can take out the DO." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69990#3 04:10:03 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:10:51 so all local variables are assigned using let is it ? 04:11:04 We say "bound" by LET. 04:11:21 You can say (let ((x 0)) (setf x 10)) 04:11:44 LET creates a local binding. SETF assigns a value to whatever binding is visible. 04:12:09 If there's not lexically apparent binding then the variable must be global and should have been created with DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER. 04:12:34 k i have a loop inside a recursive function 04:12:40 What happens if you SETF a variable that hasn't been defined either globally (DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER) or locally (LET) is strictly unspecified. 04:12:55 Sure. 04:13:12 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:13:21 so for local variable i can use SETF rite 04:13:35 Yes, but if you don't use LET first you don't have a local variable. 04:14:52 k i am posting a code ..... i dunno if it makes sense as it has many function calls ....... if it makes sense gimme ur comments 04:15:45 stopgo [n=stopgo@c-67-180-49-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:49 -!- stopgo [n=stopgo@c-67-180-49-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:15:50 Praveen pasted "let and setf" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69991 04:16:17 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:17:50 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 04:20:31 gigamonkey: is the use of setf fine or should i use LET>??? 04:20:43 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:20:47 gigamonkey annotated #69991 with "Some comments" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69991#1 04:23:43 how can i bind a list ? 04:25:04 Praveen: same as you bind any other value. 04:25:26 Praveen: in general it's better to use LET than SETF. 04:25:36 (let ((x '()) 04:25:45 Use setf only if you cannot use let. 04:25:55 k 04:25:58 I think you need to spend a little time actually learning Lisp instead of just guessing how it works. 04:26:01 (let ((x (list 1 2 3))) (list x x x)) 04:27:49 Praveen: Try: (defun out (&rest things) (loop :for item :in things :do (if (eq thing :nl) (terpri) (princ thing)))) (out :nl "inside loop - " x " v = " v) 04:28:05 s/princ thing/princ item/ 04:28:11 hmm wouldn't that let example work best with let*? Or I didn't get the context right :) 04:28:48 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp91-122-108-137.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 04:28:55 phadthai: depends on how you want to intersperse the printing... 04:29:03 oh the list was outside let definitions now that I reread 04:29:28 initially I had the impression the second list was to set another variable within let 04:29:47 Praveen: ignore pjb's idosyncratic use of :FOR and :IN instead of FOR and IN. ;-) 04:30:16 Also, don't emulate his use of EQ in the place of EQL. 04:30:31 *gigamonkey* *tries* to ignite a style war. 04:30:32 k 04:31:07 There are good reason to use keywords for loop keywords. 04:31:45 Well, the are arguable reasons. I'm not sure if I'd go so far as "good". ;-) 04:32:45 pjb: I'm only said someting to give Praveen a clue that your style is not completely standard. I'm not actually saying it's bad. 04:33:00 I don't ask more :-) 04:33:38 Besides, after agreeing not to bicker about where the parens go, we Lispers have far to few opportunities for style wars. 04:35:54 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:55 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 04:36:04 Good morning. 04:36:08 Morning beach. 04:36:20 Are you still writing an algorithms book? 04:36:26 gigamonkey: indeed. 04:36:28 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-225-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:36:33 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:36:35 (let ((x (select a var-domain)))) 04:36:37 (princ x) (princ " ") 04:36:38 gigamonkey: It's in French, though. 04:36:39 (let ((d (orderdomain x var-domain))))is this correct ?? 04:36:49 Do you know of a new book by someone named Sally Goodman (spelling possibly wrong). 04:37:09 gigamonkey: 'fraid I don't, no. What about it? 04:37:11 Praveen: looks okay. 04:37:40 I'm trying to track it down. Peter Norvig mentioned it in my interview with him but I can't figure out what book it is or who Sally Goodman is. 04:38:10 I have, however, discovered what I'm calling "The Google Paradox": it's quite hard to Google information about people related to Google. 04:38:17 (She apparently works there now.) 04:38:34 Because "Google" appears so often on arbitrary web pages. 04:38:36 is it fine to pass the x bound using let as argument ?? 04:38:41 That's interesting. Did Peter Norvig say that she works there? 04:38:53 Yeah. Do you know who she is? 04:39:08 gigamonkey: The name sounds familiar, but I don't think so. 04:39:43 gigamonkey: what's the book supposed to be about? 04:40:46 gigamonkey pasted "Sally Goodman" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69992 04:41:10 That's all I have. 04:41:32 So, that could be a book similar to mine then, but in English. That would be nice. 04:42:30 I'm wondering how much interest there would be in a book that takes a semi-deep look at multiple programming languages. 04:42:41 I have an inclination to write such a book someday. 04:43:18 gigamonkey: I think that's the kind of book that professors like because they recognize their knowledge in it, but it is impossible to teach from. 04:43:20 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:43:39 Yeah, I was thinking more for the many, many autodidacts out there. 04:44:17 Yeah, that would be nice. 04:44:26 Let me know if you need a co-author :) 04:44:32 People who don't really want to read all of the HOPL proceedings and don't want to be bothered with deep programming language theory. 04:44:46 gigamonkey: might it be "A Practical Guide to Data Structures and Algorithms using Java (Applied Algorithms and Data Structures)" 04:44:47 gigamonk can a variable bound by x passed as an argument ? 04:45:13 Praveen: you really need to go read the book. 04:45:29 Ah, Goldman, not Goodman. Thanks a bunch hugod_! 04:45:37 Praveen: any expression can be used as an argument, and its value is what is passed to the callee. 04:46:07 Praveen: I have, in fact, answered all these questions, and many that you have not yet asked, here: http://www.gigamonkey.com/book/ 04:46:25 i but when i pass a variable bound my LET i am having problems 04:46:40 can u suggest tutorial on let and set 04:46:51 Praveen: go read the book. It's online. 04:47:02 which book ? 04:47:14 minion: tell praveen about PCL 04:47:15 praveen: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 04:47:54 http://l1sp.org/pcl/let 04:48:08 Praveen: you might start there 04:48:24 k thank u 04:49:00 Praveen: abbreviations such as `k' and `u' are frowned upon in this channel. 04:49:23 Praveen: if you want to save typing, use your Emacs abbrevs. 04:50:24 hmm, perhaps we should expand OK as well. As I recall, it means Orl Korrect. 04:50:54 beach: looks like the book hugod_ found is probably the one Norvig was talking about. 04:50:59 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a9b-202.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:51:09 beach: I think the etymology of OK is lost in the mysts of time and folk etymologies. 04:51:19 Or Irn Bru... 04:51:21 But you can always write it out as "Okay". 04:51:28 gigamonkey: I think you are right about the book, but wrong about OK. 04:51:47 ww 04:52:10 Well, if you can trust Wikipedia on this: "The origins of OK are not known with certainty, and have been the subject of much discussion and academic interest over the years." 04:53:38 gigamonkey: Seems you are right. 04:54:33 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-198-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:55:39 gigamonkey: For what it's worth, I now think it is a bad idea to use a particular programming language for algorithmics, and I instead favor a pseudo language. 04:56:29 beach: I'd probably agree with that. But I bet you sell a lot more copies (for a while) if you write it in the language du jour. 04:56:38 So MMIX it is, then? ;-) 04:56:50 Because with your own language you can invent new notation as you need it. Multiple values is a good example. I guess the one I use in my book has sort of the expressive power of Lisp, but with Python-like syntax. 04:57:29 gigamonkey: Yeah, and then you can make three different versions of it and sell even more (Java, C#, C++). 04:58:23 Apress asked my at one point about the feasability of a Practical Scheme 04:58:25 *cough* Sedgewick *cough* 04:58:32 gigamonkey: I tried that, but found myself constantly having to explain twisted code because of limitations of the language. 04:58:34 tic [n=tic@c83-249-198-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:58:54 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:58:54 You mean you tried Scheme? 04:59:21 I just mentioned that as an example of a publisher's attempt to cash in on publishing more or less the same book twice. 04:59:40 beach: it's a question of semantics. If you use a languages whose semantics are well defined, then it should be better if it is a "programming language" that is, a formal language with an existing interpreter than anything else. 04:59:41 gigamonkey: Scheme actually isn't very practical in the first place, but perhaps you could limit the application domain. 05:00:01 With a "pseudo-language" you've got the risk of hand waving. 05:00:23 rme: The pseudo language used in most books is way too close to Fortran, which is why I decided not to use an existing one. 05:00:33 beach: Actually if I ever felt inclined to do such a thing I'd probably just pick a practically-minded implementation and use that. 05:00:41 Now, you could probably use mathematics, but most people would find it too abstract for defining algorithms. 05:00:51 gigamonkey: that would be another possibility. 05:01:10 That seems to me to be the first step in any actual practical use of Scheme. 05:01:14 pjb: Sure that's an advantage. 05:01:17 With mathematics, you'd define more easily functional algorithms than procedural ones. 05:01:38 I'd use lambda calculus :-) 05:01:51 Well, my book is mostly based on imperative algorithms and data structures. 05:04:10 beach: I was citing Sedgewick as an example of the "sell the same book in four different programming languages" syndrome. 05:04:25 rme: Ah, OK. 05:05:01 crod [n=cmell@cb8a6f-050.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:05:11 Your point about being able to invent notation is a pretty good argument for using a pseudo-language, in my opinion. 05:06:35 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:43 When you say pseudo-language, do you mean something that couldn't, in principle be an actual language? 05:06:53 -!- Praveen [n=chatzill@pool-72-78-227-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:06:58 rme: yeah. In my book I use <- for assignment, and I can use field(x) for getting the value of a field of a structure and field(x) <- for assigning such a field. I't setf in disguise. 05:07:00 If not, then it'd be sort of slick to provide an interpreter for your pseudo-code language. 05:07:26 gigamonkey: I am planning to do that, by translating it to Lisp. 05:07:44 You could even imagine having a little runtime that provides some hooks for easily visualizing the behavior of the algorithms. 05:08:08 Knuth's provides algorithms that are nominally "machine runnable", which is a theoretical bonus, but I've never bothered to go to the trouble to set up a "machine" to run them. 05:08:26 That's a possibility, but I have read several people saying that visualizing algorithms is not necessarily a good idea. 05:08:44 rme: you mean the MIX machine? 05:08:45 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1DCDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:09:27 beach: Yes, the MIX machine. 05:09:28 beach: I could believe that. There was a thing in the paper a few weeks (months?) ago about some study that found that teaching mathematics with concrete examples was actually less effective than teaching it abstractly. 05:09:47 segv [n=mb@p4FC1E833.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:17 gigamonkey: Interesting. 05:10:35 hi guys 05:10:41 i have a couple of questions 05:10:56 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-198-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:11:19 1. how much work might it be to create a fairly full set of bindings for qt4.4 or greater for common lisp? ... just a guess oh what sort of effort this might entail 05:11:40 2. would list be able to access c++ libraries found in kde4? would that be possible at all? 05:14:15 holymoo: the problem lies with C++ and its name mangling. 05:14:59 holymoo: if you restrict yourself to some specific C++ compiler, then you could reverse engineer the name mangling (and vtable format, etc) and reimplement them in the lisp side to have good access to C++ libraries from Lisp, via CFFI. 05:15:11 oh 05:15:15 *humm* k. 05:15:16 holymoo: it might be easier and more portable to define a C wrapper. 05:16:00 int MyClass_myMethod(MyClass* that,int arg) { return that->myMethod(arg); } ... and call MyClass_myMethod from lisp, which is easy. 05:16:06 aha, right, i remember googling a c comment like that up 05:16:25 *hmm* 05:16:40 Hmmm, looks like SWIG might help there: 'It is now possible to automatically create a flattened API of C++ classes so that the C++ functionality is available in the form of easy to use C structs and global functions.' 05:16:43 so pretty well two sizeable projects if either were to be attempted 05:16:48 From www.swig.org 05:17:00 oh interesting 05:18:07 oh sweet, that looks pretty cool 05:18:10 thx for linkage 05:18:27 Let's hear it for advanced neural networks! 05:19:12 qwerty01 [n=nimaj@d199-126-167-79.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:29 and its in debian repos 05:19:33 thats awesome 05:25:53 I recently read a book by Jef Raskin called "The Humane Interface", in which he gives a pretty good argument against icons. However, people seem to like the visual effect of icons, despite the fact that they are incomprehensible and they waste pixels. So I was wondering how the visual effect could be obtained while still using text. 05:26:29 Colors, fonts, "enluminures". 05:26:43 Beautiful typography! 05:26:43 I mean, people complain that McCLIM looks ugly, and currently the only way I know how to fix that is to introduce more icons, which means a less user-friendly interface. 05:26:45 When I read that book I customized my Microsoft Word toolbar with a bunch of random differently colored fish icons. 05:27:04 I think his point about icons was that hoping for an icon to be "intuitive" is a waste. 05:27:12 Riastradh: Definitely. 05:27:30 Better to have arbitrary icons in consistent positions and tooltips. 05:27:40 I mean, Lettrines, not enluminures which would be too close to icons. 05:28:16 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:21 pjb: That's an interesting idea. 05:28:29 Tordek [n=tordek@host67.190-227-44.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:28:35 Anyways, it's clear that there's a fight between left and right brain, between ideographic and alphabetic scripts. 05:28:53 Besides, if you're going to use a mouse you can't worry too much about wasting pixels--Fitt's Law still matters. (Which I recall he discusses at some length.) 05:29:14 Ideograms need more study, so it's good when you want a 1984-like world. 05:29:18 gigamonkey: he does, yes. 05:29:55 Er, sorry, Fitts's Law. 05:30:01 heh 05:30:26 gigamonkey: right, so the idea would be to decorate the words in a way that would satisfy people looking for the visual pleasure. I think pjb has some insight. 05:30:43 well you have a couple of problems there 05:30:48 the first is 'user friendly' 05:31:10 user friendly is bandied about as if it is some sort of universal property that anyone should be able to dial in 05:31:31 when you actually do useability studies, you quickly discover there is no such thing 05:32:09 the only thing shared beyond the fact we have two eyes, two arms and two legs (plus or minus depending on your genome), is shared cultural experience 05:32:16 For me to be userfriendly, you need to be like emacs (or perhaps oberon on the other end of my range) :-) 05:32:17 Does he really say icons are bad? I thought icons actually turned out to be good for expert users since they know what they stand for. 05:32:40 that alone precludes absolutely no possibility of every defining useable in any meaningfull way, beyond some arbitrary target demographics 05:32:41 so 05:32:48 an graphic interface is something very special 05:33:10 what it is ... is A MACRO for getting a bunch of things done without having to know any commands to do it 05:33:11 Experts have a mental model of the system they use, they don't need visual clues. They could drive the computer with the eyes closed. 05:33:27 guis were invented specficially for that purpose. 05:33:32 its automation of things that can be automated 05:33:49 pjb: and, as I remember it, that was sort of Raskin's point. Icons are not useful for beginners because they are too cryptic. 05:33:49 and when you put a whole bunch of macros together, you get a photoshop, a video editor, etc. 05:33:53 i.e. its a graphical lisp 05:34:11 pjb: yep well thats one of the sideffects 05:34:16 But unless you're going to throw away your mouse, you neeed something to click on and for an expert it could be pretty much anything as long as it doesn't change or move around. 05:34:18 gigamonkey: I think he does say that. The only "advantage" they have is that they take up less room than text, but then Fitts's comes into play. 05:34:24 when we have done interface testing when brining in linux to replace windows 05:34:32 we discovered that people MEMORIZED the interface 05:34:38 they didn't want to learn how to use a computer 05:34:38 beach: also they can be consistently shaped/sized. 05:34:45 they were only interested in memorizing the interface 05:34:56 so they memorzied teh shape, colour and size and POSITION of the object 05:35:01 Makes l10n a bit easier since only the transient tooltip has to change. 05:35:08 if you move the icon for example, it no longer was the same representation to them 05:35:40 *stassats`* used to push buttons without any text and icons, just by their relative positions 05:36:46 Icons make people who can't read anymore. 05:37:06 the problem i think we get into is that interface arent flexible enough to allow them to be quickly re-organized for different demographics 05:37:07 for example 05:37:30 the users of our linux machines are begging for a ui that looks like the one you get on an eeepc linux machine 05:37:38 workspaces with tabs sort of simplicity 05:37:48 plus some automated workflow mechanics 05:38:24 kde4 now provides us containments and applets that we hope to be able to do this for them over the next few years we hope 05:38:48 hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:09 but yes, just like martha stewart expects things to look pretty, users expect their iconography to fall into 'fashion' 05:39:28 it has to look like the latest, so yes mclim will haveto be updated 05:40:07 holymoo: What users want and what is efficient are two different things though. 05:40:36 well i think they are related 05:40:51 holymoo: yes, they are, in that they are usually opposites. 05:40:57 beach: if it's effeciency you want, you want pie menus. 05:41:03 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 05:41:11 lol 05:41:24 *gigamonkey* was mostly serious. 05:41:29 as an aside, my theory of the week is that it is impossible to write good software with people other than yourself as the target audience 05:41:37 i think that mostly users are looking for macros and super macros 05:41:40 a point which I think user interfaces have much to do with 05:41:48 hefner: I tend to agree. 05:41:50 press a button to create an image gallery 05:42:11 while others require command line 05:42:14 hefner: I could buy that. Is the conclusion we draw from that that there should be less software or more programmers? 05:42:28 i'm not sure where on a line of efficient vs not efficent those lie 05:42:33 gigamonkey: why not both? 05:42:39 hefner: i agree 05:42:49 Serva [n=Carla@unaffiliated/serva] has joined #lisp 05:42:51 hefner: sure, that could be too. 05:43:06 i think that software has to be split into presentation/server or mvc sorts of layers 05:43:40 the ms sparkle tool for creating sophisticated uis (from what i read, i haven't actually used it) would be one theoretical way of allowing an application to be 'skinnable' 05:44:00 for example take gimp. i love gimp. i'm an expert user of photoshop and understand why ps users cannot use gimp ... and its all psychological 05:44:34 if gimp was split into server/ui, one could give poeple a fisher price ui they so depserately want in a fairly straight forward way 05:45:18 beach: was it Raskin's book that talks about the design of the airplane seat-back entertainment system? 05:45:19 funny, I wrote off photoshop ten years ago because of its (then) single level undo and too much modality in the ui (e.g. color selector) :) 05:45:40 gigamonkey: I think so, yes. 05:45:50 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has left #lisp 05:45:58 Have you read "The Inmates are Running the Asylum"? 05:46:27 I read it a while ago yes. 05:47:04 I suppose it's a countargument to hefner's theory--people can build software for people other than themselves but you have to pretty strictly split the user interaction design from the programming of it. 05:47:12 hefner: its just as shit today 05:47:13 lol 05:47:21 holymoo: can they use Gimpshop? 05:47:28 no thats even worse 05:47:44 what happens with gimpshop is it gest sooooooooooo close to ps that they assume its ps 05:47:51 ah 05:48:00 uncanny valley for software programs 05:48:02 and what happens is like 2% of the shortcuts and ways of doing things are different 05:48:12 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:49:04 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:13 oops 05:49:20 gigamonkey: I think the "persona" idea gives some of the advantages of designing an interface for yourself. 05:49:21 yeah uncanny valley of software! 05:49:22 lol 05:49:30 that is the best description of that i've ever heard :) 05:49:35 thats exactly what happens with gimpshop\ 05:49:59 beach: yeah. I.e. human beings actually are capable of having empathy for fellow human beings. But they have to work at it. 05:50:15 heh, yeah. 05:50:28 i think website are amazing examples of this useability thing 05:50:42 most non programmers can restyle the average database drien site that has decent templating 05:50:45 and 05:50:53 websites are also the BEST example of lack of useability 05:50:59 not because their toolkit sucks 05:51:06 What I strongly recommend against is to ask potential users what they want, because 1) they don't want what they need, and 2) they will always ask for a copy of what they already use. 05:51:08 but because you cannot really hit all demographics with one interface 05:51:16 beach: agreed 05:51:25 And I think Coopers most important point is that when you are programming it also, there are just too many temptations to trade off good user experience for ease of implementation. 05:51:28 there is an excellent poster that describes that 05:51:31 i wish i could find it 05:52:18 lets take another example 05:52:19 flash 05:52:27 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-106-128-43.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:52:28 it hasn't really changed much for 12 years 05:52:30 or so 05:52:34 I'd like to write a toyish paint program just to explore the UI. The programs I used as a child - Koala Painter, Cyber Paint, Animator Pro - all had arguably superior interfaces by virtue of running fullscreen with no tools visible unless you toggled into them. 05:52:47 it is just a simple runtime environment specifically targeted to do only certain things 05:52:54 Well, if you carefully design your MVC model you can implement different VC couples for different users, but it's a lot of work. And Mac (and AFAIK MSWindows) simplified this model by merging Views and Controlers so it's even less modular. Also, we often see code that merge the three parts, and worse, more and more nowadays we see code without even the most basic procedural abstraction. 05:52:56 what made flash special was not that it was small and fast and targeted 05:53:05 copy-and-paste code... 05:53:06 what made flash special is that it had an ide to easily use it 05:53:11 (it would make a fun demo on top of the right substrate, anyway) 05:53:18 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:54:04 holymoo: not to mention flash is dead easy 05:54:32 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:49 bah xorg is crashing 05:55:48 i just beat a game with top score but the site didn't accept my new record :-S 05:56:04 good thing i have a screenshot 05:56:59 OK, so what would be a good method of creating "modern" lettrines? What would they look like? Could they be generated automatically? From photos? 05:57:21 lettrines? 05:57:23 what is that 05:57:44 http://www.google.com/search?q=lettrines 05:57:44 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:57:45 I don't know what it is called in English. Those are the decorated initial letters of chapters in older books. 05:57:56 beach: possibly. With some analysis if the pictures. Apply a vectorization algo, and then match the result with the general form of the letter. With a match, you can incrust the letter in the picture. 05:58:08 "Illuminated letters" maybe. 05:58:18 what's modern? 05:58:40 ohhhh 05:58:42 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:58:47 hefner: I don't know, but flowers and leaves don't seem appropriate for most software. 05:59:01 hefner: maybe some geometric patterns. 05:59:20 beach: Maybe generate some fractals (e.g. the Mandelbrot set) and find bits that fit will with the letters. 05:59:33 beach: what about the Medieval style? I'd like it. 05:59:39 gigamonkey: that's an idea. 05:59:53 Or just superimpose the letters with some Mandelbrot filigrees around it. 06:00:00 pjb: I think it might clash. 06:00:07 I don't know, I wouldn't mind if my desktop looked like a page from a gutenberg bible 06:00:16 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 06:00:31 ausente [n=id@201-92-74-31.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 06:00:42 why not just use a font that does that? 06:00:47 there are lots out there 06:00:48 Well, the other possibility would be to simple "steal" existing ones from old books. 06:01:06 holymoo: URL? 06:01:22 Or hire a graphist to create them specifically for the application at hand. 06:01:24 oh you will haveto google the free font sites, i haven't downloaded a font in ages 06:01:37 and i know i don't have one as i've never done any design that requried that 06:01:37 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.243.27] has joined #lisp 06:01:43 holymoo: what should I search for? 06:01:44 alec_ [n=alec@pool-71-174-175-161.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:46 they do exist tho, and are available for free 06:01:53 beach: free font 06:02:05 warning: unfortunately a lot of sites are adcentric 06:02:23 "dropped initial" says the dictionary 06:02:26 i don't have my design bookmarks here of free professional font sites that are ad free 06:02:47 beach: try http://www.google.com/search?q=illuminated+letter+fonts 06:03:01 For example, google s=lettrines gives: http://fr.fontriver.com/fancy/initials/ 06:04:36 Is there some deep reason why academic papers never have dates on them? 06:05:23 Thanks for the URLs I think that will give me enough to work with for a while. 06:05:32 -!- alec_ is now known as alec 06:06:14 gigamonkey: I noticed too. Perhaps because they don't know when they'll be published? 06:06:22 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-54-210.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:07:12 pjb: I suppose. Pretty annoying though. 06:07:15 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 06:08:32 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:08:40 Indeed. 06:11:06 is there a reason why many cliki packages don't have author's names? 06:11:17 Someday when I have *way* too much time on my hands I'll write a program to do what I sometimes do by hand--find the most recent cited paper in the bibliography. At least that gives you a lower bound. 06:12:53 beach: have a look at this: http://books.google.com/books?id=IvaIuV6gn8QC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=douglas+hofstadter+font+character&source=web&ots=WM8nUhR0ju&sig=uzRDuCqlHbw-3T05IEO9ku32Rd8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA41,M1 06:13:38 gigamonkey: citeseer might already give it. 06:15:54 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host67.190-227-44.telecom.net.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 06:17:45 pjb: yes, very nice. 06:18:10 g'day 06:18:21 bbl, I've got to sleep a couple of hours... 06:18:40 hello schme_ 06:18:54 schme_: How is your CLIM application coming? 06:19:35 Oh just fine :) My task now is to display some jpegs in a pane here, and I got clued into using closure for this. So now I 06:19:39 gah! 06:19:53 now I'm browsing around the closure source to see how that works 06:20:03 just to display some jpegs? seems like a heavyweight approach. 06:20:10 I agree 06:20:11 Tordek [n=tordek@host67.190-227-44.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 06:20:16 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:20:36 Well there will be more later. 06:20:39 schme_: Athas added some general code for displaying images as I recall. 06:20:46 Yup. 06:21:39 I know this. that is what I use at the moment 06:21:46 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:21:50 Ah, OK. 06:22:01 Sadly no png, so I go with the jpeg 06:22:08 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.243.27] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:22:41 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:49 I suppose I will spend most of today figuring ploticus out. 06:22:54 It's very mean to me :) 06:23:42 -!- topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has left #lisp 06:23:43 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:24:43 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:13 My issue is the general placing of graphics in the pane. It just seems easier if I can whip it all up in html. 06:27:36 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.245.46] has joined #lisp 06:29:13 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["bbl"] 06:30:31 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:38:56 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 06:39:24 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:41:31 -!- Serva [n=Carla@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:43:22 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:30 shiki9 [n=kenroy@76.76.163.193] has joined #lisp 06:43:41 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:07 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-8-219.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 06:52:33 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:43 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:00 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host67.190-227-44.telecom.net.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 06:57:47 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:59:20 beach: I was going to give you a beautiful screenshot here, but it seems I have broken something before I went to bed :) 06:59:33 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:35 darn! 07:00:05 Ya.. Waiting for my coffee here, then I'll work it out :) 07:00:44 I'll be off to the Sunday market in a few minutes, but I'll be back in less than two hours. 07:01:10 Tordek [n=tordek@host67.190-227-44.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 07:04:06 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-17-124.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:07:35 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:56 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:02 shlomi [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:40 -!- shlomi is now known as rindolf 07:16:11 photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 07:17:35 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 07:18:47 -!- crypto_ is now known as z0d 07:30:25 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 07:31:52 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:33:36 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 07:33:44 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:40:02 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.99.46] has joined #lisp 07:41:09 (slot-value gong '%callback) tells me the slot is missing. Yet inspect suggests it is indeed there, and I can use the reader method accessing the slot to read it. How is this? 07:43:40 is '%callback from the right package? 07:44:21 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:57 oooh! 07:45:59 stassats: thanks ! 07:46:11 hmmm, how do I make sb-aclrepl my default repl? 07:47:59 require it in your .sbclrc? 07:48:49 duh. as soon as i require it from the repl it becomes my repl. i somehow though i would need to asdf-load it and then call a function, like (aclrepl-load). thanks :-P 07:49:26 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:52:11 seems like drakma under win32 is not liking any of the three openssl versions i could find 07:52:39 Don't blame drakma, blame win32 ;) 07:53:13 no complaints here actually, i'm one happy duck 07:53:15 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-827d0a7c52b53dd5] has joined #lisp 07:53:56 everything seems to workout for me, out of the box, with my odd choice for a lisp platform 07:54:29 That's excellent :) 07:54:33 just trying to tack a GUI on drakma 07:54:38 I thought lisp ran just fine on win32 though? 07:55:19 oh, lisp is fine. i'm just running win32 sbcl with hunchentoot, lambda-gtk, elephant, and clsql all in the same image :-P 07:55:23 with no threads 07:56:10 mon dieu. 07:56:41 if my perversion has its way, i will be able to take screenshots off of an opengl context and, filter the resulting image with skippy and serve it on hunchentoot. who needs IPC or remote communication? 07:57:16 Hah! :) I find your perversion very much to my liking! 07:57:21 special variables are much faster 07:58:29 who needs variables? use SK-combinators 08:00:20 i dismiss them with prejudice 08:00:57 i often come across printouts i made of denotation-semantics papers from years ago. can't believe i was such a weenie. 08:01:07 -!- photon2 is now known as photon 08:01:30 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 08:01:40 -!- pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02:44 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-827d0a7c52b53dd5] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 08:03:44 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1fff130129a020a9] has joined #lisp 08:03:48 leave it to edi weitz to reduce the "useful api" to one function call. HTTP-REQUEST. the essence of what a web-browser should do by default. bravo! :-) 08:04:55 i would have made it like (send-http-request (make-instance 'http-request :method :get :uri (make-ascii "/"))) 08:05:23 or some such cumbersome crap 08:10:50 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-225-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:48 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:20:40 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 08:30:10 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.15] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:32:40 lyte_ [n=lyte@220-244-221-67-nsw-pppoe.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:38:37 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:40:51 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:40:55 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:30 tic [n=tic@c83-249-198-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:45:17 Practical Uncommon Lisp? 08:48:43 (define-application-frame .... (:panes (chart-pane :name 'chart-pane ...) ...) ...) .... (find-pane-named *application-frame* 'chart-pane) => NIL ; this in some function ya. 08:48:46 Why the NIL? 08:49:16 and hello tic 08:49:23 morning schme_. 08:49:26 (yarr!) 08:49:35 yarr! 08:49:42 wallabi [i=wallabi@otaku.freeshell.org] has joined #lisp 08:52:37 mikezor [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:53:04 08:53:13 heya 08:53:27 hello 08:54:28 How I'd love a (concatenate 'bitmap foo bar) right about now 08:54:38 hello wallabi 08:55:06 :( 08:55:20 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.245.46] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:55:30 wallabi: ? 08:55:45 lisp is a weird learning curve... 08:56:16 schme_: couldn't you use ANY of the bitmap libraries out there? 08:56:18 schme_: you might want to store the reference to the pane in a slot. 08:56:31 schme_: So where is this screenshot? 08:56:39 fusss: I had no idea there was such a thing. 08:56:48 hmm im gettin 1 error in cl-sql-mysql 08:56:50 beach: Well it will have to wait 'til I get this pane reference working :) 08:57:17 schme_: image libraries? you kidding me? 08:57:25 check out cliki 08:57:34 fusss: No I meant that let you concatenate two images. 08:57:57 cheap X11 pixmaps practically have no header 08:58:15 test scrpty 08:58:29 wallabi: What error? 08:58:47 fusss: ok. jpeg, but it shouldn't make any difference. 08:58:51 if you just want to concatenate them, make sure they're orthogonal then run the bits together 08:59:07 run the bits together? 08:59:25 nm i just read it... missing libs! 08:59:30 08:59:35 I really just want one image next to the other :) 09:00:13 beach: How would I go by doing that? 09:00:22 beach: (storing it in a slot) 09:00:22 schme_: couldn't you create a 2D array of the same width as the two images (the SHOULD have the same width), and length equal to the sum of their lengths? 09:00:42 schme_: hold on... 09:00:46 fusss: That's the plan. 09:01:05 fusss: they don't have the same width I'm sure. 09:01:12 nor the same height :) 09:01:31 But it's no bother. 09:01:54 they have to be orthogonal 09:01:58 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:02:13 concatenating linear sequences only makes sense because they have a width of 1 :-) 09:02:47 schme_: (:panes ... (let ((pane ...)) (setf (my-pane *application-frame*)) pane)) 09:03:14 \\~~ 09:03:16 hmmm. 09:03:44 schme_: the value of *application-frame* is correct when the panes are instantiated. 09:03:51 Aaah. 09:04:02 I was trying to jam it in there as a normal slot in the frame. 09:04:27 schme_: Yes, I was assuming that my-pane was an accessor to such a slot. 09:04:43 :) 09:05:02 schme_: so (define-application-frame () ((bla :accessor my-pane)) (:panes ... )) 09:05:22 I meant I shoved *application-frame* thing up with the frame slots. 09:05:24 i love the idea of such slots... 09:05:24 so that got odd. 09:05:37 wallabi: What sort of slots? 09:05:52 sayeed56 [n=chatzill@59.94.117.149] has joined #lisp 09:06:20 -!- sayeed56 [n=chatzill@59.94.117.149] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 09:06:32 oops 09:06:36 :) 09:06:46 sayeed56 [n=chatzill@59.94.117.149] has joined #lisp 09:07:34 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-225-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:07:42 wallabi: I'm sorry. You don't make any sense :( 09:07:55 im reading Gentle_Introduction 09:08:01 Cools :) 09:08:18 wallabi: That's no excuse for not making sense. 09:08:42 A good explanation though :) 09:08:43 mikesch [n=axel@tmo-100-224.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:54 open the pod bay doors hal! 09:08:57 sorry :) 09:10:57 kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:58 beach: Ok. I very much do not understand that there (:panes .. (let ...)) bit :) 09:11:39 OK, I'll post some code from Gsharp. Hold on. 09:11:46 minion: lisppaste 09:11:47 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 09:13:08 Actually, let me use some code from an information system I wrote. 09:13:18 beach: Or just tell me where in the gsharp code to look :) 09:13:24 beach pasted "For schme_" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70000 09:14:08 beach: Congrats. I have been wondering since yesterday who would get paste 70k 09:14:30 heh, thanks! 09:15:21 Oh I see! 09:16:40 I grabbed flexichains/cvs, mcclim/cliki. what else should I grab for climacs? 09:17:01 baggles [n=bill@88-106-173-106.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 09:17:07 hello 09:17:18 tic: for McCLIM you probably need CLX and you need spatial-trees as well. 09:17:22 hello baggles 09:18:01 beach, alright, good. I already had CLX, and it seems seems asdf-install is taking care of spatial-tree. 09:18:21 it's been a while since I've been here. i tire of fighting with colleagues as i watch them reimplement lisp in java. 09:18:35 wtf 09:18:58 baggles: yeah, since end of May. 09:19:04 *wallabi* shoots missil at java 09:19:27 wallabi, #lisp is mostly for talking about Lisp, not dissing other languages. 09:20:04 wallabi: Please start saying something relevant, or refrain from saying anything. 09:20:49 CVS of Climacs, I guess? 09:21:04 tic: Yes. 09:21:58 *beach* should make another attempt to replace Emacs with Climacs for day-to-day work. 09:22:47 baggles: did I say May. I meant March. 09:23:11 probably something like that. i got a job in march. 09:24:33 Climacs functionality over SLIME-emacs ? 09:25:32 tic: clbuild would make it easier, me thinks ;) 09:25:57 I would seriously try to replace my emacs, but climacs refuses to deal with my meta key. 09:25:57 schme_, clbuild for grabbing climacs? 09:26:07 tic: Yes :) 09:26:26 clbuild update climacs 09:26:29 or something like that. 09:26:38 It should just grab what you need. 09:26:39 didn't know you could do that. maybe I should. right now asdf barfs on me on prolog syntax, and FORMAT-SYM being undefined. 09:26:44 Atleast it did for me :) 09:26:51 I has climacs! 09:27:02 was it good for you? 09:27:31 probably as good for me as for you. 09:27:58 would it be entirely useless to create a GUI for Drakma? 09:28:00 oh I actually crashed climacs just now. 09:28:23 schme_, my meta key works, by the way. 09:28:24 I don't think I can do proper image rendering, javascript, CSS or flash. but for basic html markup? 09:28:33 tic: That's good :) 09:28:48 schme_, want a keymap dump? 09:28:55 tic: I still have no idea why it does not work here. it is captured as a meta key. 09:29:11 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:17 tic: No need. mcclim reads it as I am pressing meta. It's just that climacs says funny stuff like M-x is unbound. 09:29:24 Unless I hit Esc x 09:29:28 -!- sayeed56 [n=chatzill@59.94.117.149] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 09:29:37 schme_, right, but M-f/M-b works for me. 09:29:41 even M-x 09:29:48 Yup not for me. 09:29:49 All unbound. 09:29:58 Before I hade a meta key I didn't even key that, of course. 09:31:47 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:31:57 schme_, http://mikael.jansson.be/static/config/Xmodmap works wonders for me. 09:34:42 *tic* feels a bit crippled in Climacs not knowing Emacs. 09:36:13 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 09:36:29 Well I managed to make it even worse by restarting X. 09:36:29 :) 09:37:14 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:37:22 Climacs seems to think that when I hit Meta-x I am actually Hitting Meta-Mode_Switch-x 09:37:47 So that's different from last time :) 09:39:40 schme_, http://mikael.jansson.be/static/config/Xmodmap works wonders for me. 09:40:04 (ln -sf .... ~/.Xmodmap) 09:40:52 It think it's my mode-switch messing stuff up. 09:40:52 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.208.79] has joined #lisp 09:41:07 Maybe you can find something by looking at my config? 09:41:20 not a thing :) 09:42:13 *_deepfire* promises himself not to create complex, non-modular macros anymore 09:42:16 the clear / add stuff is the same thing? 09:42:19 (as yours) 09:42:37 tic: Bugger! I decided to try your xmodmap out and now I can't find where you hid Super. Where's it at!? 09:42:49 schme, super is windows. 09:42:51 tic: Also hitting M-x with your xmodmap gives me M-x is unbound. 09:42:56 schme, ! 09:43:03 huh. 09:43:09 I don't get no super here with those. 09:43:11 schme, how about if you put it in ~/.Xmodmap and reset X? 09:43:21 keycode 115 = Super_L 09:43:30 also, add Mod4 = Super_L 09:43:35 oh. 09:43:39 wrong mod then. 09:43:42 fuckin' a 09:43:54 I'd start up an xterm and fix it but I can't without mah super as mod3 :) 09:44:17 But, it might be interferring with your already-setup keymap, so maybe you should test with only loading my keymap? 09:44:18 user__ [n=user@p5492704D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:55 ya. I just need to fix it :) 09:45:27 tic: Hoh. Where's Super_R in this? 09:45:54 Mod4 seems to be Super, by a quick google tour. 09:46:10 schme: the Meta-key problem can be fixed by using the Ubuntu GUI for kbd options. 09:46:15 Mod4 can be anything ya likes :) 09:46:21 schme, nowhere. but you can add it if you want to. to the same key shifted, or what you want. 09:46:24 schme, that is true. 09:46:27 beach: ok.. and where do I find that? 09:46:39 schme, but in my setup, mod4 is bound to key 115. 09:46:44 tic: Pfft. I need one on the right of space and one on the left :) 09:46:53 I'll try it with a frech tic xmodmap though. 09:46:55 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1fff130129a020a9] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 09:46:56 Then go back to sanity ;) 09:47:05 schme, then add tha. I believe I have it commented out. "Right windows key" 09:47:21 keycode 116 = Super_R would probably do it for you. 09:47:21 ok 09:47:30 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:41 Well I'll revert back when this dose not work anyway :) 09:47:43 But my keymap is actually broken, too, because hitting Ctrl-Backspace is the same as ctrl-meta-backspace, or so X thinks. 09:47:56 M-x is unbound. 09:47:59 alas, I can't figure out why. :| 09:48:12 Ah 09:48:23 schme, did you load the keymap on top of your existing, or put it in ~/.Xmodmap? 09:48:23 my regular keymap is not broken at all. Just for climacs / mcclim :) 09:48:36 No I restarted X and loaded just yours. 09:48:50 cool. mine works for climacs, but X needs DontZap. 09:48:54 schme, odd. 09:49:04 Yes. 09:49:16 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:49:18 The problem is not that it's not detected as a meta key. It's something else. 09:49:37 I had that fancy describe thing going the other day and it sure told me I was hitting :meta + x 09:49:40 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:49:40 -!- mikesch [n=axel@tmo-100-224.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:49:48 schme, that is indeed weird. 09:49:59 :) 09:50:05 *schme* restarts back to sanity 09:50:08 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:17 phew 09:50:39 tic: Nice to hear it's working for you! 09:51:00 schme: do you have Ubuntu? 09:51:33 beach: nope 09:51:40 ah, OK. 09:51:43 Funky. MOTION-LIMIT-ERROR on M-/ 09:53:10 Crap. I'm bit by CLX, too. Mode_switch (AltGr) doesn't work for me, so I can't type (). 09:53:14 beach: What would the ubuntu thing do for me though? The problem is that when I hit Meta + x climacs tells me M-x is unbound (Esc x works just fine). But someone, don't remember who, aided me with getting some stuff displayed and it is indeed recorded as :meta + x by mcclim. 09:53:33 tic: :) 09:53:56 schme: OK, so that is a different problem then. 09:53:56 Fudge. Someone needs to fix CLX. I have the exact same problem in StumpWM. Can't type ?() and {[]} 09:54:16 tic: Do like normal people and use xmonad :) 09:54:38 tic: did you use Krystof's darcs version of CLX? 09:54:58 beach, I honestly don't remember. Might've been through asdf-install. 09:55:11 tic: that one might bee too old. 09:55:35 I have issues with that. I hit mode-switch + h to give me a ( and I get mode-switch is unbound. 09:55:40 beach, I see. 09:56:00 schme, do you have mode_switch on your altgr? 09:56:23 tic: Yes. 09:56:30 schme, I feel sorry for your right hand. :) 09:56:36 (the combo altgr-h) 09:56:58 tic: I stopped using it. That's a good idea to map it on the left hand actually. 09:57:48 tic: I used it quite frequently (altgr-h). dvorak h, so it's qwerty j. But I used it tons and dislocated some thing in my hand. Got a weird bump on it. 09:58:02 didn't feel too good to push that back 09:58:15 with Clisp, is the number in a non-readable printed representation supposed to be unique for the life of the object (e.g. #)? Or can it change when GC happens, for instance? 09:58:16 Though shift + 7 and 8 is easy enough ) 09:58:39 schme, I still have mode_switch on altgr, however I have the actual keys on the left-hand side of the keyboard instead (QWE and ASDF). I would prefer having the physical mode_switch key in front of the space key instead, more natural. 09:58:57 tic: That's why I have super on both sides of the space bar. So I can use it on either side without fucking my hands up :) 09:58:58 schme, I'm sorry for your hand. 09:59:07 Ya. 09:59:11 I want the foot switches. 09:59:15 :) 09:59:45 perhaps climacs *needs* meta to be some specific modifier. 09:59:46 hrmm. 10:01:17 Well nevermind. I should go hack on this pixmap stuff :) 10:04:39 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:05:48 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:22 velco [n=chill@85-130-2-7.1697011.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:23 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:09:51 enigmus_ pasted "That's nasty" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70002 10:10:14 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-50-169.man.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:11:46 enigmus_: You were planning to use the memory location as identification? 10:12:18 enigmus_: And what is it you want to print? 10:12:49 schme: not the memory location, but I expected that if I did on the REPL (print x) and somewhere else (print y), then I would know whether I was seeing twice the same object 10:13:24 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:13:43 enigmus_: Won't checking equality answer that? 10:13:59 Yes, but not in debugging output... 10:14:23 Hmm.. 10:14:26 Say I'm tracing some execution by adding a bunch of (print x)... Well it's completely useless to do that.. 10:14:38 enigmus_: that depends on GC, most modern GCs are copying gc, so there are moving stuff around 10:15:00 they 10:15:51 enigmus_: Well maybe you can add some slot or something to identify the objects. 10:15:53 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.97.50] has joined #lisp 10:16:02 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-54-210.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 10:16:06 schme: oh yeah, that's what I will do 10:16:30 -!- wallabi [i=wallabi@otaku.freeshell.org] has left #lisp 10:16:39 -!- velco [n=chill@85-130-2-7.1697011.ddns.cablebg.net] has left #lisp 10:16:44 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 10:16:47 but wasn't conscious of that fact, and it's pretty nasty to debug, because the GC never triggers in the same place (here anyway)... 10:16:52 Hello 10:16:54 s/debug/understand/ 10:19:40 benny [n=benny@i577A01AD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:20:10 hello mrSpec 10:24:21 bloody gtk 10:25:14 you know how tab-sheets are a rectangular client area and a little rectangle at the top for the label? 10:25:14 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-4.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 10:25:46 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:26:01 gtk looks fugly in tabs, because the inactive background color shows in that top area where the title rectangle doesn't extend to 10:26:17 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 10:26:41 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:06 only solution (i know of) is to create the tab on top of a regular sheet/window, just to give that tiny empty strip on top a natural background 10:29:12 atleast it has a good theme-engine builtin and it can parse CSS-like resource files :-) not to mention you can create lisp GUIs with Glade :-) 10:29:28 ejs [n=eugen@70-234-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:59 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:14 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 10:30:48 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 10:31:56 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:58 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C7F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:01 zzZZZZ 10:33:02 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 10:33:05 ExtreTux [n=Angel@141.Red-88-3-255.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:27 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:40:45 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb9b9f.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 10:40:46 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-225-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:30 -!- enigmus_ [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:41:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-10.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:42:03 -!- lyte_ [n=lyte@220-244-221-67-nsw-pppoe.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:46:33 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:47:42 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:53:49 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:40 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d3ac2705770a2f34] has joined #lisp 11:01:20 okflo [n=user@91-115-89-23.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:02:37 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.208.79] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:21 besiria [n=user@ppp083212085093.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 11:07:34 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:08:14 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-71-174-175-161.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 11:09:16 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 11:15:05 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.43.151] has joined #lisp 11:22:35 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-82-124.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 11:24:43 beach: You around with your McCLIM skills? 11:24:55 eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:25:04 schme: yes 11:26:03 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-225-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:26:59 -!- ivansto is now known as ivanst 11:27:06 beach: Here's a quick one. How do I make what MAKE-PATTERN-FROM-BITMAP-FILE drawable with DRAW-PATTERN* ? 11:27:12 ud 11:27:16 what tha gives me. 11:27:20 Wow I can't type :) 11:27:42 -!- ExtreTux [n=Angel@141.Red-88-3-255.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:27:52 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 11:28:05 aah 11:28:10 Hah. 11:28:13 beach: Nevermind :) 11:28:19 draw-design? 11:28:41 oh 11:28:48 now it got messed up some other way. Hrm. 11:28:59 I am just guessing. I can't remember that part of the spec. 11:30:07 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 11:30:32 mikesch [n=axel@tmo-100-165.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:46 Actually (draw-pattern* stream (make-pattern-from-bitmap-file path :format :jpeg)) turns out to be quite workable when I did it right. 'cept I get some horrible "invalid array index 326 for #2A(.... ...))) 11:31:08 I assume my jpeg is messed up :) 11:31:32 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp435.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:31:46 Either way, I don't know that part of the spec very well, and certainly not the code that was written for it. 11:31:48 -!- mrSpec is now known as SpecAFK 11:32:00 Ya. 11:32:10 Well the thing I was wondering I actually solved while asking :) 11:32:12 heh 11:32:14 -!- baggles [n=bill@88-106-173-106.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has left #lisp 11:32:29 good! 11:35:09 x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 11:37:15 Well I think the jpeg bitmap thing for mcclim is broken :) 11:37:17 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:39:31 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:40:31 -!- shiki9 [n=kenroy@76.76.163.193] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:47:10 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 11:48:16 josemanuel [n=josemanu@223.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:48:54 beach: 'tis a beauty! http://imagebin.ca/view/Hr2rX_aP.html :) 11:52:19 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb9b9f.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:53:12 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 11:53:13 -!- ausente [n=id@201-92-74-31.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [] 11:53:20 schme, indeed! 11:54:09 Still waiting for when I understand enough of this here CLIM so it does not get in my way ;) 11:55:17 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 11:55:44 shiki9 [n=kenroy@76.76.162.143] has joined #lisp 11:58:18 filcab42 [n=filcab@bl8-31-1.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:58:22 *tic* wonders if there's CLIM for other languages. 12:00:35 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 12:01:18 -!- filcab42 [n=filcab@bl8-31-1.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 12:01:28 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:02:57 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:04:41 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 12:06:17 x6j8x__ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 12:11:33 does Dylan count as "other" enough? 12:12:41 bogonflux [n=bogonflu@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:40 -!- kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:23:43 appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:23:53 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:24:48 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:05 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:27:11 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:32:56 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 12:33:50 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:34:16 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb9b9f.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:35:35 mikesch_ [n=axel@tmo-100-165.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:06 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:38:44 schme: Very nice! 12:39:18 tic: there is DUIM for Dylan. 12:39:58 tic: It would be very hard to obtain something similar to CLIM in other langauges. 12:42:40 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 12:43:17 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:43:32 -!- mikesch [n=axel@tmo-100-165.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:15 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:48:58 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The professional IRC Client :D"] 12:52:27 <_deepfire> beach, is there more to it than the spec size? 12:53:20 baggles [n=bill@88-106-173-106.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 12:53:26 topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has joined #lisp 13:03:29 Serva [n=Carla@dilip.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:07:12 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:08:30 harlequinn [n=harlequi@e179049168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:09:02 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:09:57 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:11:43 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:11:57 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 13:12:27 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:12:29 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085093.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [No route to host] 13:12:57 <_deepfire> hmm, an inlining bug in sbcl, fast forwarding to the git version.. 13:15:56 -!- baggles [n=bill@88-106-173-106.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has left #lisp 13:17:43 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-47.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:19:17 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:43 oudeis [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-210-143.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:24:01 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086154.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 13:24:45 elurin [n=user@88.224.44.54] has joined #lisp 13:25:44 -!- cbrannon [n=user@ip68-12-115-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:26:49 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.139.48] has joined #lisp 13:30:51 -!- Serva [n=Carla@dilip.rit.edu] has quit [] 13:37:47 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host147.190-137-185.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 13:39:55 beach: Congratulations, you're the 70000th paster to this site! (imagine that in big blinking banner ad style) 13:42:20 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:42:23 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host67.190-227-44.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:12 Silly question, but does anyone know what causes the SBCL note "unable to expand inline" because "upgraded array element type not known at compile time"? I can post code if it's not obvious. 13:45:32 chandler: Yes, schme pointed that out to me. What do I win? 13:45:54 Humph! Let me know when there're nearly 2^17 of them. 13:47:28 rswarbrick pasted "SBCL optimisation question" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70012 13:47:40 Indeed, I have posted code... 13:54:44 chris2_ [n=chris@ppp-88-217-82-124.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 13:54:46 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-210-143.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:54:48 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:56:22 oudeis [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-210-143.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:57:57 -!- konr`` [n=user@201.82.228.185] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:57:58 rswarbrick annotated #70012 with "Simpler example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70012#1 14:00:05 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:00:31 -!- mikesch_ [n=axel@tmo-100-165.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [] 14:01:08 rswarbrick: I don't know the answer, but I can guess. Some strings, like base-strings contain characters that can be represented in a single byte, whereas others can contain unicode characters requiring 24 or 32 bits. Apparently, in order to inline POSITION, it needs to know which one. 14:01:31 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:02:05 rswarbrick: But, like I said, I am just guessing. 14:02:16 Ah, I see. 14:03:00 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:06 Hmm (not that this really matters) is there a way to tell sbcl not to complain about this in this case? As in "yeah, yeah, I know. Shush" sort of thing? 14:03:27 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 14:03:34 you might be able to declare position notinline locally. 14:04:25 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:05:07 Ahah. Thanks, that works (and I understand, yay!) 14:05:17 no problem. 14:05:38 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-210-143.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:05:46 wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:47 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-82-124.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Operation timed out] 14:08:22 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 14:13:32 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a16-184.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:14:00 -!- harlequinn [n=harlequi@e179049168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 14:14:03 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a6f-050.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:14:40 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 14:14:57 Hmm. New slime and emacs isn't playing ball with the upgrade without a restart. Back in a minute. 14:14:57 -!- rswarbrick [n=rupert@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 14:16:44 rswarbrick [n=rupert@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:46 schme: update your mcclim, I fixed a bug relating to jpegs a few days ago 14:24:30 milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.61] has joined #lisp 14:31:39 Does anyone know what sb-alien::shared-object-file used to be for? It seems to have been removed and clg does something with it, so I'm trying to work out what TRT to do is. 14:35:41 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 14:37:52 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:38:46 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 14:39:06 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 14:39:46 fluke777 [n=tomas@220.231.broadband.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 14:40:28 clg? 14:40:46 http://sourceforge.net/projects/clg 14:41:01 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Client Quit] 14:41:18 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 14:41:26 ah. Maybe there already was a CL-GTK. 14:41:29 But confusingly, it seems that the darcs head version of cffi uses it too, so maybe I'm doing something wrong. Going to have a dig through sbcl changelogs. 14:43:38 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-82-124.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:29 Hi everybody, I am very very very new to common lisp, so prepare that this is going to be struggle :-). I have tried to install weblocks web framework and at last I managed to get it. When i type (weblocks:start-webocks) server starts and i can go to localhost:8080, but there is 500 error, even starting weblocks with :debug t goves me no additional feedback. Can anybody point me somewhere nearer to get this working? 14:46:39 In case anyone's looking at logs, it seems that the accessor to the struct has been renamed to shared-object-pathname. 14:46:58 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-82-124.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 14:47:09 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.139.48] has left #lisp 14:48:20 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@ppp-88-217-82-124.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 14:49:51 Er, shared-object-namestring in fact. *sigh* 14:51:45 fluke777 can you get hunchentoot running on its own - without adding weblocks on top? 14:52:44 hefner: Cools :) and good work! 14:54:00 wol: well, can try that if you can help me a little. What is the command? 14:54:24 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:54:26 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:54:32 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-82-124.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 14:54:39 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:49 <_deepfire> gmm, # in swank debugger 14:56:19 wol: Ok managed to do that and seems to work ok 14:56:42 wol: Got some hunchentoot default page 14:59:47 rswarbrick: update your CFFI (: 15:00:54 pkhuong: Yep, that's fine! Thanks (although I have no idea why I didn't see that it'd been fixed...) 15:02:28 Ahah! I've just understood unload-shared-object-present-p. Nice! 15:02:40 -!- fluke777 [n=tomas@220.231.broadband.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:02:54 fluke777 [n=tomas@220.231.broadband.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:02:58 Also could anyone point me to some links regarding some materials about asdf and lisp images and how this whole stuff works? I have read most of peter seibel practical common lisp, but this seems to be different world :-) 15:04:18 _deepfire: return-pc-header. 15:04:32 fluke777 http://constantly.at/lisp/asdf/ 15:05:24 fluke777 or http://common-lisp.net/~mmommer/asdf-howto.shtml 15:05:53 wol: great, many thanks, about that weblock issue have you got any idea? 15:07:18 Can anyone point me to what the spec says about #+#. and #-#. ? It's kind of hard to google for... :) 15:07:38 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:21 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:59 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-82-124.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:09:09 specbot: #- 15:09:12 no? 15:09:18 rswarbrick: #.(foo) evaluates foo in the keyword package, and the form is then used by #-/#+ to decide the fate of the next form. (#+/#- read the next form in the KEYWORD package and interpret it to know what to do) 15:09:28 clhs #- 15:09:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhr.htm 15:09:38 Ahah! Thank you very much! 15:09:54 (and, pkhuong, I suppose you can guess what lines I'm reading...) 15:10:49 fluke777 where did you pull weblocks from? I don't use it, but it seems to have been under fairly heavy development. Did you set a log file? 15:11:38 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:46 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:12:04 fluke777 There is also a google groups just for weblocks that you could ask. 15:12:16 <_deepfire> pkhuong, interesting 15:12:18 rswarbrick: the usual idiom is #+#.(cl:if ... '(and) '(or)), since '(and) is always true and '(or) always false. 15:13:28 wol I think I pulled it from hg clone http://www.bitbucket.org/skypher/weblocks-stable/ 15:14:35 wol: Unfortunately I don't know how to set up a log file. Asking on the google groups is actually good idea I wasnt;aware of that it exists. 15:15:31 With the clbuild when I get MISMATCH: cffi was installed from http://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/darcs/cffi+lotsastuff, current is http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/darcs/cffi what do I do about such a thing? 15:17:13 fluke777 The following might help. These will help see the errors from hunchentoot's angle (setf (log-file) (make-pathname :defaults *log-file*)) (setf *show-lisp-errors-p* t) and (setf *show-lisp-backtraces-p* t)) 15:17:41 fluke777 Beyond that, you probably need to talk to the people on the google-group. 15:17:43 pkhuong: Ah thanks 15:18:02 wol: Will do that, and many thanks for your help 15:19:06 Woah baby. A whole screen full of checkouts for mcclim. Nice to see the project is alive and kickin' :) 15:21:33 -!- user__ [n=user@p5492704D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:24:02 hefner: That fix of yours to the jpeg seems to have done the trick :) 15:27:28 schme: clbuild trash cffi && clbuild install cffi 15:28:48 mjmcevoy [n=chewy@pool-71-115-116-167.sangtx.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:46 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:31:33 hmm.. 15:31:50 lichtblau: I think I just did clbuild uninstall cffi which claims to have moved it to trash :) 15:35:28 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:21 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:36:45 yeah, "uninstall" in the new alias name I invented for "trash", because I thought it sounds clearer 15:36:53 same for "install" for "update" 15:37:51 -!- ``Erik__ is now known as ``Erik_ 15:38:32 Ah ya. :) good thinking 15:39:13 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:21 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-89-23.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:40:49 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-50-169.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:56 G'morning all. 15:41:02 hello nyef 15:41:08 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C7F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:42:50 user__ [n=user@p5492540C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:35 I think I'm going to go with the macro @ for load/store addressing, with the test for unary - as an offset and support for a label as a base register with a constant (not register) offset. 15:48:34 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 15:48:46 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 15:48:52 can I do RIP-relative jumps? 15:48:53 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-82-124.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 15:48:54 (x86-64) 15:49:26 Yes, of course. 15:50:22 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.99.46] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:52:13 hello 15:52:45 waht is a good tutorial or book to use for learning lisp 15:52:57 minion: tell shiki9 about pcl 15:52:58 shiki9: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 15:53:15 thanks 15:53:27 beach: did the FFT code you were discussing with hefner back in August ever get "released"? 15:53:58 hugod_: I don't think so, but I gave it to hefner, and you can have a copy as well if you like. 15:54:51 beach: yes please if it has been updated from what you pasted back then 15:55:11 no, it has not been updated since 15:55:44 ok, thanks 15:55:52 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:57:56 well, I've updated the copy I was using 15:59:22 nyef: nice. LEA , [RIP+FOO+Offset] didn't seem particularly interesting. 15:59:24 hefner: if you're feeling generous, I'd like to see it... 15:59:38 hugod_: i think there's a version on lisppaste. 15:59:54 -!- fluke777 [n=tomas@220.231.broadband.iol.cz] has left #lisp 16:00:04 hugod: http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/hacks/transcription/fft.lisp is more up to date 16:00:33 hefner, pkhuong thanks 16:03:50 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [] 16:03:55 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:05:02 <_deepfire> oh, wow, x86-64 has pc-relative addressing?! 16:05:21 _deepfire: for PIC goodness. 16:05:27 <_deepfire> or, rather, has its PC exposed as a register 16:05:50 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:05 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a16-184.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:06:18 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@94.178.208.94] has joined #lisp 16:06:47 That means that they don't have to make a function call to get the value of PC in order to find the GOT in the .so file. Amazing! 16:06:53 -!- elurin [n=user@88.224.44.54] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:07:03 elurin [n=user@88.224.44.54] has joined #lisp 16:08:05 -!- elurin [n=user@88.224.44.54] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:08:42 Not quite as impressive as the ARM approach of having the PC as part of the register set for all operations, but not bad. 16:09:19 jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-199.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:11:56 <_deepfire> nyef, they x86-64 probably restricts it to minimize interlocking 16:12:38 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d3ac2705770a2f34] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:13:01 But there are so many fun uses for this in terms of computed goto! 16:13:02 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp435.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 16:13:36 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:14:44 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 16:15:40 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:02 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:17:32 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:20:00 -!- user__ [n=user@p5492540C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:23:01 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 16:24:06 -!- Ash [i=aaron@facestab.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:25:38 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 16:25:50 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:31 disumu [n=disumu@p57A26EC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:36 peartizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:31:44 dys [n=andreas@p5B3155EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:56 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:32:24 filcab42 [n=filcab@a83-132-100-247.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 16:33:40 -!- filcab42 [n=filcab@a83-132-100-247.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:28 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:34:32 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:35:13 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-251-185-93.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 16:37:50 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:38:11 matley [n=matley@83.225.6.43] has joined #lisp 16:39:35 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.5] has joined #lisp 16:41:23 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:48:33 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.5] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:48:50 <_deepfire> holy, erm, something, email encryption is probably going to become more popular in UK.. 16:49:29 the_unmaker [n=Administ@cpe-76-174-30-243.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:39 Oh again with the scrollbars. I have this McCLIM pane here, with scrollbars on both sides. And I draw in it a formatting table with two cells each containing a (DRAW-PATTERN* ...) . This makes parts of the second pattern not fit in the pane, and I would really like for the scrollbar to let me scroll sideways. How does one make it work? 16:53:32 enigmus_ [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:42 don't you have a function lying around you can call todo the change-space-requirements dance by now? 16:57:21 The space requirements? 16:57:44 yeah, to resize the sheet to the bounding rectangle of the drawing inside of it 16:57:52 I don't think I have ever heard of such a thing, and certainly never done anything. 16:58:08 -!- x6j8x__ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 16:58:25 Hmmm. 16:58:42 Nope. 16:59:07 I was hoping it would do like when I use DRAW-TEXT and the scrollbar just works. 16:59:15 <_deepfire> (change-space-requirements pane :width w :height h) 16:59:47 I'll look into the space requirement thing though :) 17:00:04 <_deepfire> what's the pane's parent? 17:00:15 Eeehm.. 17:00:58 I'll fight the feeling of deja vu and kludge this directly into the end of table formatting in cvs, since that's where people always hit it, and I don't feel like fixing it in the general case 17:01:54 Does SBCL tend to inline REDUCE? 17:02:13 _deepfire: I'm not sure there. I have this layout (vertically () (horizontally () (with-tab-layout ... HERE IT IS))) 17:02:18 <_deepfire> hefner, that's where I've had this issue as well 17:02:56 hefner: Is that why I have to do a (format pane "~%") at the end of my formatting table that dumps a lot of text in a pane, to have the scrollbar work? 17:03:02 filcab42 [n=filcab@a83-132-100-247.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 17:03:08 schme: yes 17:03:24 I see. Good to understand things :) 17:03:35 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 17:03:57 *hefner* should validate his assumption that resizing the sheet is relatively expensive, which his rationale for resisting making this work automagically 17:04:30 hey emma 17:04:45 (hypothetical cases where I want to draw off the edge of the sheet aside) 17:04:52 I'm just surprised by it all. I don't think I've seen it mentioned in one of the "tutorials" or in the specs. Atleast not that I have seen. 17:05:15 'course I didn't read it all ;) 17:05:23 *nyef* looks at the code he's just written and shudders. 17:06:30 better than the code you've just written looking at you and shuddering.. 17:06:44 in sovjet russia etc. 17:07:19 nyef: don't think reduce ever gets inlined or transformed. 17:08:38 hefner: Though adding expensive operations sounds like a bad idea, but McCLIM seems really fast so it seems ok :) 17:08:46 fancy transformation of reduce is on my wish list, along with transforming multiple-value-call multiple arguments in the same way as it can currently handle a single known argument (since I'll probably never figure that one out myself) 17:08:57 nyef pasted "can anyone think of a better way to do this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70019 17:09:05 hefner: what do you mean re m-v-call? 17:09:50 I suppose I could use two APPLYs and a MAPCAR or something... 17:09:52 hi tic :) 17:10:05 pkhuong: presently SBCL can transform (m-v-call #'foo (bar)) to m-v-bind and funcall if for instance it knows how many values (bar) returns 17:10:32 pkhuong, but if you have (m-v-call #'foo (bar1) (bar2)), it can't transform into two mvbinds and a funcall 17:10:34 nyef: you're using make-list /how/? 17:10:48 hefner: right.. I find the current automagic dx-alloc situation pretty awesome already (: 17:10:54 Geh. Clearly, I meant LIST, there. ^_^; 17:10:58 (: 17:11:03 had me look it up just then (: 17:11:32 *nyef* fixes. 17:11:51 nyef: macrolet. 17:12:25 pkhuong: How is that a win? 17:13:36 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:40 morning 17:13:52 Hello slyrus_. 17:14:16 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 17:14:17 as much (if not less) code, less cons a temporary list just to pass it to reduce. 17:14:23 hey nyef. how does the ARM port? 17:14:33 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:50 slyrus_: Just working on load/store instruction encoding now. 17:16:04 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A26EC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 17:16:14 user__ [n=user@p5492540C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:32 I guess doing the lookup in a flet and calling it 4 times isn't bad either. 17:17:04 -!- the_unmaker [n=Administ@cpe-76-174-30-243.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:43 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [] 17:19:52 I think I'm going to call this done, modulo the actual DEFINE-INSTRUCTION forms, stack TNs and label bases. 17:20:04 Oh, and the log update, of course. 17:21:16 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:21:21 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:21:41 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:21:58 -!- peartizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:04 -!- filcab42 [n=filcab@a83-132-100-247.cpe.netcabo.pt] has left #lisp 17:22:38 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-2-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 17:22:53 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:25:08 pkhuong: I'm not sure what you mean about automagic dx-alloc 17:31:18 hefner: Are you saying that SBCL is consing the return values for functions called via m-v-call and then spreading them all at the end, or is it some other undesirable effect? 17:32:38 I don't know how that works, I'm just interested in the case where everything is an inlined function and the m-v-call machinery could be completely eliminated 17:33:37 Ahh. 17:33:57 how can i use ch-image:make-text-context? after loading it via asdf (downloaded from the net via clbuild) it is undefined. 17:36:24 pasted "another one, slime glitch?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70020 17:36:59 ok.. So I have tried (formatting-table .... [draw two patterns in two seperate cells]) with a (change-space-requirements pane :width width :height height) both after and before the call to formatting-table. I really think I have misunderstood something here :) 17:37:19 Neither makes the scrollbars work 17:37:35 I was just doing a silly experiment building loops functionally where each loop component is three lambdas (get/step/test), and components are composed together (which requires m-v-call #'values of the getters) 17:38:10 everything being inlined, I was impressed that sbcl could do enough cleverness to produce code identical to dotimes for a simple loop of a single variable through a range 17:38:22 so with a little help, it could probably do as well for complicated loops 17:40:54 *hefner* wonders if anyone has ever mixed pane-display-mixin into something other than a stream pane 17:42:04 oh. 17:42:11 One needed some more options. 17:42:23 which ones? minimums? 17:42:30 Oops. Missed an entire class of load/store instructions. 17:43:27 hefner: Well I handed it a couple of min and a resize-frame . So one of those :) 17:44:22 I wonder if anyone would miss that ugly little line wrapping marker if I just turned it off 17:45:19 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:20 This is lovely. Thanks for all the help. Now you're probably safe 'til next weekend ;) 17:45:21 Now I just need to make ploticus behave >< 17:50:08 duaneb [i=45cd3b57@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-20a2ed16e69c5287] has joined #lisp 17:50:12 hey 17:50:21 is there any way to control read? 17:50:31 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:50:39 i.e., can I customize it to read '() as an empty vector instead of as a cons chain? 17:51:05 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 17:51:12 It'd be tricky, but doable. 17:51:19 duaneb: Yes. Though that's going to make it hard to read Lisp code. 17:51:26 pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:33 And there are things you can't do with read. 17:52:41 duaneb: Though that's the kind of thing that raises the question, why do want to do that? 17:54:00 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:54:02 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:54:03 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:19 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:58:10 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:32 Umm, I don't actually want to 18:00:37 that was just an example :P 18:01:02 I'm just interested in reading in sexpressions that are restricted to lists, integers, and strings 18:02:53 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:03:54 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:04:06 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:05:11 so, I guess, is there a way to do that? 18:05:19 I'm not reading lisp, I'm reading data.... 18:08:19 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:30 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:13:35 hmm. something is broken with mcclim's text input gadget. 18:17:41 ejs_ [n=eugen@224-155-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:37 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["brb"] 18:21:13 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 18:21:49 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:22:56 duaneb: You should be able to do that. 18:25:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 18:27:18 Athas: ping :) 18:27:31 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:27:54 hefner: pong! 18:28:14 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.43.151] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:28:45 *hefner* scrambles to form a coherent question 18:29:04 Is there a way to use someone's library which has a defpackage with a :nicknames form, while telling it to ignore the nickname? I'm hoping to use Tamas' cl-cairo2 alongside clg, which defines :cairo as a package. 18:29:09 Why such unusual coherence? 18:29:44 (he's not been observed for a while?) /me stops making physics jokes now 18:29:45 Libraries that define overly-generic package names are the best. 18:29:52 Was it phemlock that defined GUI? 18:30:07 Athas: is that to me? 18:30:09 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:30:29 My two latter statements were inspired by your situation, yes. 18:30:33 :) 18:30:56 Hmm, anyway, is there a way to tell it not to? Else, I'll take a C-k to the packages.lisp... 18:30:59 No, wait, it was Closure that defined that system. 18:31:56 rswarbrick: if you're careful about how you load things you could load one package and then use RENAME-PACKAGE to remove the nicknames and then load the other package. 18:32:17 *gigamonkey* thinks packages in public libraries should never come with nicknames defined. 18:32:21 Ooh can rename-package remove nicknames? 18:32:24 Yes. 18:33:10 Ahah! Thank you very much! 18:33:30 Anyway, lisp hacking has come to an end for the evening, since I'm going to a pub quiz. It's a hard life... 18:33:41 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 18:33:49 Am I a complete heretic if sometimes I wish CL:IF was actually the infamous IF*? 18:33:58 -!- rswarbrick [n=rupert@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 18:34:07 gigamonkey: probably, yeah. 18:35:53 gigamonkey: Heh. Just use (loop repeat 1 if ...) :-) 18:36:05 I figure, I like LOOP because it provides a bit of syntactic sugar for one very common construct (looping); it would be sort of a nice parallel to have a sugary choice construct. Leave COND as the primitive op. 18:36:12 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:36:33 I still say 'do' would be a great name for such a thing 18:36:44 -!- ejs [n=eugen@70-234-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:36:56 -!- _schulte_ [n=Eric@c-98-203-235-80.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:38:10 hefner: DO as a name for an IF-like construct? 18:38:33 no, the all-singing, all-dancing if* / loop mashup 18:38:42 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@208.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 18:38:43 Ah. 18:38:53 not that I endorse such a thing. 18:39:17 (DO blah IF whatever ELSE) the-other-thing or (DO n TIMES whatever) or (DO FOR x in list stuff) 18:39:19 Hmmmm. 18:39:26 I'm not sure that's a win. 18:39:28 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@208.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:08 what would clojure do? 18:40:57 Maybe we need the ITERATE of conditional constructs. 18:41:10 be sure to include support for MAYBE 18:41:15 -!- SpecAFK is now known as SpecAway 18:41:24 and PLEASE, for the Intercal refugees. 18:42:07 and PLZ, for the lolcode enthusiasts 18:42:32 And TAGBODY / COME, also for the Intercal refugees. 18:43:43 (plz i can has (gethash foo *hash-table*) cheezburger (process cheezburger) lol fail (signal 'not-found)) 18:43:45 oudeis [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-210-143.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:46:46 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:48:54 Athas: I was going to pester you about the size of the text field gadgets malfunctioning, but it seems to be general mcclim strangeness 18:49:07 Are you sure they are malfunctioning? 18:49:25 not 100%, no. 18:49:29 I fixed them once, thought I did it pretty well actually. But some of the defaults are nonintuitive or something. 18:49:40 My major change was that min/max-sizes are enforced very harshly. 18:51:18 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:45 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 18:56:27 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:57:08 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:06 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:59:17 Athas: it appears to me that the defmethod allocate-space on text-field-pane (which calls resize-sheet on itself) can't possibly work, as it bypasses the box layout logic 18:59:54 so the text-field-pane is the correct size, but the substrate is never resized 19:00:08 Okay, updated my port log. I'm reasonably comfortable with my progress at this point. 19:01:07 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:10 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 19:02:21 There is some reason I think that doesn't matter (due to text-fields being single-line and all), but I can't remember. 19:03:31 seems to matter in the method browser example (which, amusingly, I used to find the applicable methods while debugging it) 19:05:15 -!- duaneb [i=45cd3b57@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-20a2ed16e69c5287] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:06:09 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:59 I'll take the usual approach of changing it in CVS and waiting for something to break 19:11:24 _schulte_ [n=Eric@c-98-203-235-80.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:40 <_schulte_> any suggestions for a lisp package for reading/writing YAML? 19:12:14 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 19:16:31 -!- user__ [n=user@p5492540C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:17:09 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.6.43] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:20 matley [n=matley@83.225.6.43] has joined #lisp 19:17:51 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:52 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:22:11 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086154.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:38 nyef: have you posted the log publicly? 19:22:38 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 19:23:40 slyrus_: yes, let me dig the link up 19:23:42 minion: logs? 19:23:42 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 19:24:09 minion: add "arm port log" as: http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/port-log.txt 19:24:09 OK, done. 19:24:23 minion: show slyrus_ arm port log 19:24:23 slyrus_: please see arm port log: http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/port-log.txt 19:25:05 Why oh Why does the ACM have the world's worst login mechanism. They should, you know, hire some programmers to write them some software for their stupid computing machines. Grrrr!!! 19:25:57 nyef: Are you going to target the old ABI or the EABI? 19:30:18 *chandler* sincerely hopes it's the latter - no reason to target new stuff at the old ABI at this point 19:30:21 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:31:22 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:05 -!- ejs_ [n=eugen@224-155-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:19 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.7.40.203] has joined #lisp 19:35:27 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-198-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:35:47 tic [n=tic@c83-249-198-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:37:47 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086154.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 19:38:18 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:45 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:57 chandler: I'm targetting whatever it is my platform supports. 19:40:17 I'm assuming that it's the EABI, but I don't know for certain. 19:46:26 -!- shiki9 [n=kenroy@76.76.162.143] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:51:04 how do you build a contrib ? (cd sb-cover; gmake ) ? 19:53:48 nyef: if it's the Linksys-provided OS, it's the old ABI 19:55:21 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:33 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:58:01 shiki9 [n=kenroy@76.76.163.130] has joined #lisp 19:58:12 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-77aef7cb15e6f79b] has joined #lisp 19:58:31 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:53 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:00:07 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 20:01:07 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:04:03 chandler: I upgraded to some version of SlugOS instead. 20:04:15 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:08 nyef: looks like that's still using the old ABI too. 20:06:11 nyef: It looks like there's an EABI-based derivative of SlugOS called Angstrom: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4507356300.html 20:06:56 http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/ 20:09:40 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 20:09:54 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:10:11 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-198-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:11:01 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-77aef7cb15e6f79b] has left #lisp 20:11:13 tic [n=tic@c83-249-198-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:12:43 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:14:16 Hrm... Well, there's still a little ways to go before I have to worry about that. 20:16:06 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-198-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:16:08 tic [n=tic@c83-249-198-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:18:37 blitz_ [n=blitz@77.64.176.244] has joined #lisp 20:19:25 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-17-124.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:31 Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.5.82.217] has joined #lisp 20:24:57 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.5] has joined #lisp 20:29:03 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.6.43] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:11 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.7.40.203] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:35:10 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 20:36:30 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:37:33 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:28 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 20:39:12 jao [n=user@47.Red-79-155-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:19 H4ns [n=hans@m950736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:23 prip [n=_prip@host245-134-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:42:31 -!- H4ns [n=hans@m950736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:44:07 vasa [n=vasa@mm-77-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 20:44:56 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 20:45:47 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@208.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:58 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46655.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:20 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46655.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:25 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 20:49:30 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:52:32 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:59:31 -!- Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.5.82.217] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:00:22 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:00:36 Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.3.222.143] has joined #lisp 21:01:22 -!- Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.3.222.143] has quit [Client Quit] 21:01:44 Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.3.222.143] has joined #lisp 21:03:49 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:04:20 -!- pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 21:06:12 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-198-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:08:48 fruitbag [n=bluefish@78.149.252.197] has joined #lisp 21:08:58 Praveen [n=chatzill@pool-72-78-227-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:15 Guys, any nice ways to generate permutations of a set of numbers? 21:09:21 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:09:52 minion: tell fruitbag about alexandria 21:09:52 oh lord, please tell me this is a joke 21:09:53 fruitbag: direct your attention towards alexandria: Shhh -- it's a secret! http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 21:10:18 ...amusing 21:10:19 there's a nice implementation in there. 21:10:23 i am havin prblem with LET 21:10:45 i get an error variable has no value 21:11:23 i used (let ((domain (assignfn x y))) 21:11:55 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@94.178.208.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:12:59 -!- fruitbag [n=bluefish@78.149.252.197] has left #lisp 21:13:15 Zoba [n=Zoba@wva4418rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:13:46 carlotheman [n=carlo@91-66-159-129-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:14:11 -!- carlotheman [n=carlo@91-66-159-129-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 21:14:17 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:14:23 it works fine when i use SETF ??? 21:15:20 ccm1 [n=carlo@91-66-159-129-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:16:09 Praveen: have you already picked a nice introductory book like practical common lisp? 21:17:42 yea i am using Paul Graham and another one suggested by gigamonkey from this channel 21:17:45 you didn't specify any forms inside the let.. likely you have them out of the let 21:17:54 Hi... I'm having a problem with Edi's HTML generation library cl-who. Using the function with-html-output-to string, I cannot output global variables and variables obtained by closures. They output like an empty string. Can you help? 21:18:43 ccm1: you probably need (str variable), but if not, post your code to lisppaste 21:18:48 lisppaste: url 21:18:48 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 21:19:09 stassats: thanks, let me try that... be back in a min 21:21:16 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-47.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:22:46 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.251.9] has joined #lisp 21:24:27 stassats: yep, worked like a charm. Thanks! 21:25:10 ccm1: and yet one note, you don't need (str ...) in attributes 21:25:32 *stassats* was bitten by that 21:30:06 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.84] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:16 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 21:34:30 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb9b9f.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:35:11 also note that many times you want esc, not str 21:35:55 stassats: okay! 21:36:45 adeht: when outputting previous user input? 21:36:59 yes 21:37:28 not necessary user input, any unknown input 21:37:30 if you don't want it to be interpreted as markup 21:37:35 adeht: great, thx 21:38:14 stassats: like from a file, remote database, ... 21:39:29 yes, like that 21:40:39 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:09 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@223.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 21:45:22 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 21:45:35 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:44 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:47:15 user___ [n=user@p5492540C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:30 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:52:00 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 21:52:28 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46655.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:54 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 21:55:51 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:56 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-32-174.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:57:52 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:58:38 -!- FZ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 21:58:41 -!- ccm1 [n=carlo@91-66-159-129-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 22:00:26 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-4.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:00:28 blood_su [n=blood@static-72-64-71-11.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:31 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:01:43 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46655.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:53 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 22:08:23 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 22:09:45 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:11:15 tcr [n=tcr@a022.reverse.yawsp.de] has joined #lisp 22:13:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-195.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:13:48 -!- blood_su [n=blood@static-72-64-71-11.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:15:55 rama_su [n=blood@static-72-64-71-11.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:22 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:28 -!- SpecAway is now known as mrSpec 22:25:22 elurin [n=user@88.224.44.54] has joined #lisp 22:28:01 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:28:44 thanks chandler 22:29:52 elurin pasted "sbcl build error (with clisp)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70043 22:30:08 slyrus_: I think I have a week left on instruction encoding at most, and then I'll have enough of it done that I can concentrate on other things. 22:30:17 Of course, I've been wrong before. 22:30:41 elurin annotated #70043 with "clisp version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70043#1 22:31:40 elurin: Interesting. That's first genesis failing, it looks like. 22:32:10 AFAIK, building with clisp is not expected to work, but figuring out why not and where the fault lies is always good. 22:32:10 hi, i am getting errors while build sbcl 1.0.22 with clisp. am i missing some thing? http://paste.lisp.org/display/70043 22:33:12 ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-138-93-112.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:33:22 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-77-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:37:17 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086154.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:40:01 rswarbrick [n=rupert@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:21 elurin: isn't host-cload-stem loaded ? its in src/cold/shared.lisp, grep for shared.lisp in top-source-dir lisp files. 22:40:49 Soulmann [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:25 lhz: I think that what's happening here is that it's in the debugger after the CTYPE-OF thing, and that presents a different *package*. 22:41:56 And it's still taking input from stdin, which isn't an interactive terminal, so it gets the rest of the host-1 script as input to the debugger., 22:42:00 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:42:52 So, undefined-function CTYPE-OF in src/compiler/constantp.lisp... 22:42:59 lhz: it is loaded 22:43:06 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:43:32 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 22:43:32 *nyef* frowns. 22:43:54 It's not mentioned directly, thus is at best in a macro expansion. 22:44:35 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:59 elurin annotated #70043 with "full output of build proccess" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70043#2 22:45:22 Partyzan1 [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:22 -!- Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:45:31 -!- ivanst [i=ivans@93-138-57-202.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:45:55 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:46:09 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 22:46:17 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.61] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:46:24 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 22:46:37 That's a little more informative... 22:47:04 cross-type.lisp has "defun ctype-of" , cant find cross-type.lisp in your annotation. 22:47:05 nyef: maybe i should use just a prebuild binary sbcl to build. 22:47:30 lhz: Looks like the real problem has to do with !cold-init-forms. 22:48:14 Or maybe with defconstantp*. 22:48:15 -!- tcr [n=tcr@a022.reverse.yawsp.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:48:18 tcr [n=tcr@a022.reverse.yawsp.de] has joined #lisp 22:48:18 nyef: arent they just "strange functions" executed by target ? 22:48:58 Look at line 142 and compare with the error messages. 22:49:12 -!- bert2 [n=po@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:49:17 clhs ignorable 22:49:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ignore.htm 22:50:02 Hunh. It's valid, per ANSI. 22:50:44 So, workaround: comment out line 142 (declare (ignorable #'constantp* #'constant-form-value*)). 22:51:19 Fix: Make clisp not choke on function forms in ignorable declarations. 22:52:52 elurin: Hope this helps. But, yeah, I usually build from an older or downloaded sbcl binary. 22:55:10 (That's line 142 of src/compiler/constantp.lisp) 22:55:45 nyef: thanks, i will make package from prebuild binary distributions then use that to build new one, i guess this is the easy way :) 22:56:01 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:57:40 by the way, i have attemteed to package sbcl for pardus linux where i could't find a prebuild binary of sbcl. 22:57:49 -!- kidd [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:58:43 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:18 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:28 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 22:59:37 It's not hard to take the sf.net binary and tell make.sh to use it as the build host directly out of the directory you unpacked it into. 22:59:58 Assuming, that is, that you're running on a supported CPU architecture. 23:00:09 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 23:00:31 ccm1 [n=carlo@91-66-159-129-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:00:59 If you -aren't-, the advertised time-to-port is a "wizard-month", but I'm expecting it to be 2-3 times that at best. 23:01:46 Hi Again... I'm looking for some advice, I need a library to convert Unix timestamps to a human-readable date string. Can you help? 23:03:48 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-133-49.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:03:56 nyef: this is more logical :) , it will be build on a 32bit arc so i can use direcly sf.net's binary, as you say. Thanks 23:05:50 to my surprise, net-telent-date is *not* what ccm1 wants, unless they want rcf822 dates in particular or don't care 23:06:48 Doesn't net-telent-date work in terms of universal-time, not unix time? 23:07:13 point 23:07:25 maybe http://common-lisp.net/project/local-time/ ? 23:07:41 Maybe a small C program using strftime()? 23:07:50 the difference is a constant integer thou 23:08:02 nyef: ...ffi? 23:08:16 Or ffi. Depends on what the use-cases are, really. 23:09:52 kpreid: thanks for the info... just had a look at net-telent-date, i suppose I could use the month,day,hour number functions, etc., and make a few lists for the words... 23:10:26 ccm1: it has functions for the names 23:10:47 ccm1: local-time (+ cl-l10n, if you need localized dates, too) 23:10:48 ccm1: the above link looks good to me 23:11:31 ccm1: although you need the cldr branch of cl-l10n, soon to be merged back to head. , ugymond veletlenul, 23:11:54 err, http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=cl-l10n-cl-l10n.cldr;a=summary 23:12:02 Is (time (load "some.fasl")) in a fresh SBCL instance a reasonable way to measure the effectiveness of fasl format changes in terms of load time? 23:12:23 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:54 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:48 kpreid: so I could to a (format t... with these functions... 23:16:00 locklace: looks like a great and innovative library... Hm, having trouble asdf-installing it though, I'm getting 'undefined function' errors although *default-timezone* is there... 23:17:10 nyef: so you kind of mix C and lisp? hear of a lot of people doing that in python, but not lisp... 23:17:52 nyef: that reminded me of that load-as-fasl depends on stream being associated with a file :( (failed when I tried to measure fasl loading without using a fasl-from-file). 23:18:28 ccm1: if i were you i'd "darcs get http://www.common-lisp.net/project/local-time/darcs/local-time/" for numerous reasons 23:19:01 attila_lendvai: thanks for the tip... 23:19:15 ccm1: As I said, it really depends on the use-case. I'm actually a sometime proponent of entirely-in-lisp solutions. 23:19:58 locklace: (now) works too... but not e.g. (local-time-sec (now)) 23:20:34 nyef: I see... The use case is an SBCL based web application that will bear very modest loads 23:21:00 lhz: you can do that if you extend file-length to support your stream type (I have a patch if you want) 23:21:14 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-79-44.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:19 ccm1: In that case, I'd probably go with something entirely lisp-based. 23:22:07 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:09 -!- elurin [n=user@88.224.44.54] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:22:22 nyef: Those were my thoughts too... What would be a use-case you would use some C in? 23:22:34 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl5-65-180.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:23:10 Talking to the OS, mainly. 23:23:20 adeht: that patch would make remote fasl-loading possible without bouncing on a file ? 23:23:59 -!- Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.3.222.143] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:17 nyef: so you kind of make an FFI friendly layer around OS calls... 23:24:35 lhz: it simply allows you to extend `file-length' in a Gray-streamish way.. if you have the necessary information I don't why it wouldn't 23:24:51 This, of course, mostly applies when I'm hacking Win32. 23:25:20 elurin [n=user@88.224.44.54] has joined #lisp 23:25:54 lhz: I used a vector stream (the one in flexi-streams) + file-length and it could load fasls successfully 23:26:14 Somewhere in my archives is the start of a usbdevfs interface layer for SBCL built around sb-unix:unix-ioctl. And I personally have little trouble with the idea of teaching the compiler how to inline a syscall trap. 23:26:57 (In fact, I'm having to do so for the ARM port due to the BKPT instruction not quite behaving the way I want it to.) 23:28:19 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:29:44 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:02 need to sleep, adeht is it published somewhere ? 23:30:41 If file-length isn't inlined, it's probably something that you can hot-patch into a running core. 23:30:51 nyef: yep 23:30:53 lhz: sec 23:31:34 (And don't think I haven't done that with even more egregiously low-level stuff before. Callbacks, for example.) 23:32:58 adeht pasted "extensible file-length for sbcl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70046 23:33:51 adeht: thanks! 23:34:00 -!- user___ [n=user@p5492540C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:34:01 np 23:34:07 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:36:25 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl5-65-180.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:06 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-199.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:39:10 jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-199.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:39:50 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-210-143.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:44:16 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45:33 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 23:50:58 Anybody has experience with Verrazano/Fetter? 23:51:06 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:54:22 -!- mjmcevoy [n=chewy@pool-71-115-116-167.sangtx.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:55:39 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:56:26 -!- Praveen [n=chatzill@pool-72-78-227-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:56:40 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 23:57:04 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp