00:01:45 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:03:42 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:12 -!- err` [n=user@adsl-074-166-047-242.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:07:22 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:09:12 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:09:17 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host67.190-227-44.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:14:57 please, remind me, what's FOLDL in CL? 00:15:15 clhs reduce 00:15:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reduce.htm 00:15:22 Riastradh: thanks 00:18:44 it's foldr too! 00:18:48 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:19:35 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:10 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483ED9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 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has quit [Connection timed out] 02:36:59 -!- emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:37:11 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:40:59 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 02:43:16 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:43:29 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:45:07 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Client Quit] 02:46:04 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:01 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 02:56:50 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:51 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:18 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 03:06:47 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:09:37 *hefner* grovels around for anything discussing in depth the notion of code generation via bottom-up tree rewriting, as advocated by Ian Piumarta, but comes up empty 03:13:26 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.5] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:23 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:28 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:41 hefner: there a good amount of literature on BURG-style codegen. I don't know how closely related Piumarta's approach is. 03:21:20 ah, that gets googlejuice pumping again. thanks. 03:23:37 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:24 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 03:34:03 Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has joined #lisp 03:34:33 Hi. If I want to implement a lisp function to select a random element from a list everytime, what should be the approach 03:35:32 Goan: randomize the list once and always take off the first item? 03:36:26 Goan: Im quite new to lisp, but try this: (nth (random (length your-list) your-list)) 03:36:27 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 03:39:02 Goan: ups, correction: (nth (random (length your-list)) your-list) 03:39:36 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:41:14 inetic, I figured that out :) 03:41:16 tks 03:42:28 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:37 there's a way to do the same thing in one traversal (but more calls to random), even if you don't know the length of the list ahead of time. 03:45:33 Good morning. 03:46:47 Goan: convert the list to a vector and take random elements from the vector. 03:47:26 Yep, I can also do that. Let me try. 03:48:06 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 03:48:16 hefner: I forget, did I tell you about the tests I did with CL-Vectors? 03:57:58 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:58:48 beach: I did see your screenshot in the scrollback 04:00:59 OK 04:02:48 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:07:56 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 04:09:35 I, like, Xach (?). am surprised at your glyph's ability to stay sharp and aligned with the pixel grid 04:10:05 hefner: I align the control points that way. 04:10:47 hefner: I think that's the major advantage of a Metafont-like approach compared to TrueType (which needs hinting). 04:11:10 beach: repost? 04:11:25 sellout: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/fonts.png 04:11:54 *hefner* eagerly awaits a third member of the mcclim-truetype family, mcclim-metafont :) 04:12:57 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:13:20 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 04:13:22 judging by the screenshot, I suppose you'd have to define all the countless glyphs yourself 04:14:16 beach: I'm also surpised you appear to use a clx hack to display the output rather than mcclim itself 04:14:32 hefner: true, and one would probably have to invent a way of recycling existing TrueType fonts, and then gradually improve them. Another possibility would be to extend my embedded language so that one could recycle the Computer Modern family fonts. 04:14:51 hefner: well, the idea was to write a McCLIM backend... 04:15:23 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A24407.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["zzz"] 04:29:02 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-106-128-43.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:30:45 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:33:44 aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:42 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:11 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:45:49 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:46:46 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.15] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:46:50 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:47:11 (defun list-values (l) "return values of a list" (apply #'values l)) 04:47:13 *hefner* boggles 04:50:31 freelab [n=freelab@58.63.87.160] has joined #lisp 04:51:36 hefner: values-list, it's your friend 04:51:43 srsly. 04:52:32 even better, it was used as the second form in a multiple-value-bind, presumably by someone who didn't know destructuring-bind :) 04:52:35 -!- freelab [n=freelab@58.63.87.160] has quit [Client Quit] 04:53:17 I need more practice with destructuring-bind 04:59:12 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0376.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:04:08 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:07:02 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:07:16 sohail [n=Sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:56 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1DC3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:09:30 segv [n=mb@p4FC1DCDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:46 I was disappointed to find that I couldn't do (multiple-value-bind (&key foo bar) ...) 05:10:18 that would be fun, wouldn't it? 05:10:32 shouldn't arguments and return be symmetric?! 05:16:50 -!- lyte_ [n=lyte@220-244-221-67-nsw-pppoe.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:41 carcdr [n=mlm@pool-72-83-253-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:53 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 05:21:21 so, i'm working on a project for my AI course, it's about 1000 lines of lisp for a texas holdem bot, and it runs really slow, what can I do? is profiling my only choice, are there any web sites that talk about performance tuning lisp code? 05:22:27 my algorithms aren't unreasonable wrt complexity (no O(n^3) or anything) 05:24:34 carcdr: what lisp implementation are you using? 05:24:48 (the answer will depend on that) 05:24:54 we're doing some monte carlo sims to model the other players' hands, and it takes my code ~3 minutes to compute the probability that my current hand is better than my other opponents hands 05:25:25 cmucl 19c 05:25:50 hm, don't know cmucl except insofar as it's like sbcl 05:26:01 is your code in files which you are COMPILE-FILEing? 05:26:46 no, i'm not doing any compiling.....I didn't expect that compiling them would give me a huge performance boost, and I wrong? 05:27:09 yes 05:27:10 let me try compiling them.... 05:28:07 generally the recipe is (compile-file "foo") (load "foo") -- with no filename extension -- or better, use asdf to define your lisp system and recompile as needed 05:28:18 (but that's more complex than just adding compiling) 05:29:00 what about (load (compile-file "foo"))? 05:30:00 ...that's a better idea 05:30:01 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:30:18 i think part of the problem is that I'm creating so much garbage, when my code is running, I see thousands of message telling that the GC threshold was exceeded, etc 05:30:28 i'm looking into compiling right now...thanks! 05:30:50 carcdr: compiling should greatly reduce the garbage generation 05:30:53 -!- aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:30:54 weird, I turned the slime stepper on by accident. this never even worked before. 05:31:08 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:21 carcdrthe next two things to experiment with are optimization declarations, then type declarations 05:31:52 holy shit 05:32:40 waht was taking ~5 minutes, just tool ~10 secs 05:33:45 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:36:05 my love affiar with lisp has just grown deeper 05:36:40 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-213-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:28 hah! I just got that old GLOS student project running on SBCL. 05:39:28 (speaking of software rendering) 05:39:55 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:40:05 Is that one of mine? 05:40:13 yeah 05:40:17 (I can't remember what it is doing) 05:40:53 it's a sort of subset of opengl in CL for rendering shaded 3d objects 05:41:35 Sounds plausible, but I really don't remember it. My memory is really terrible! 05:41:54 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 05:42:47 http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/ludwig.jpg 05:42:51 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:43:06 Nice! 05:44:00 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:45:55 it seems like with a little work you might be able to speed this up quite a bit 05:48:33 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:48:49 hefner: Ah, it is slowly coming back (looking at the list of students who did it). 05:50:15 *beach* wishes for a better memory. 05:51:34 hefner: someone (I am guessing Jonathan Bailleul) must be working on this still. One of the web pages was modified a year ago. 05:52:36 beach: perhaps, but all the files in the tarball I downloaded are dated Nov. 16, 2000 :) 05:52:56 hmm 05:52:57 (that isn't to say I have a most recent version, as I didn't feel like dealing with sourceforge) 05:53:42 evening 05:53:51 hello slyrus_ 05:54:14 beach: I decided you were right. It's probably easier to roll my own graph library than to try to use whatever is out there (e.g. cl-graph). 05:54:36 now that I've got the basics done I can start working on chemicl 05:54:46 *hefner* doesn't like cl-graph 05:55:04 I have a blackjack related qn, based on what criteria you'll decide to hit/stay? The game starts with dealing two cards (one face down) each to you, and the dealer. 05:56:22 I was trying to think of the number of criteria to model the desired output 05:56:39 slyrus_: I don't remember that discussion :( 05:57:39 beach: I was asking about graph libraries a while back and why there isn't a good standard graph library and you made some noises about how it wasn't obvious what a "standard" graph would look like. 05:57:51 hefner: yeah, I was disappointed as well. 05:58:10 slyrus_: that sounds plausible :) 05:58:55 Goan: hit on red cards 05:59:07 they're luckier 05:59:29 Every time I try something at Sourceforge I get the hives. There seems to be a mismatch between my brain and the intended audience for this site. 06:01:38 beach: "people who click on ads"? 06:03:47 hefner: Anyway, I can't seem to find any sources on sourceforge (which I suppose is ironic), and I understand why you didn't want to deal with it. 06:19:14 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:08 pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:55 -!- Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:33:08 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:38:11 -!- carcdr [n=mlm@pool-72-83-253-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 06:42:35 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:44:15 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:45:15 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:19 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:55:41 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 07:02:30 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F5A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:45 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-12-36.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 07:14:50 photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 07:16:42 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:19:42 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:22:46 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 07:26:19 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 07:30:12 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:37 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:49:59 benny [n=benny@i577A01AD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:53:16 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:15 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 07:56:33 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Client Quit] 07:56:48 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 08:00:15 simple vectrs in abcl are intialize with fixnum zeros .. is that normal? 08:05:55 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:41 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bb47fc52aefbc1c5] has joined #lisp 08:08:56 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:09:12 So this is somewhat clueless... in the ECL manual, it says that a static FFI can automatically write wrappers for C functions. 08:09:18 http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/ch18s02.html 08:09:33 I can't find any documentation on how to do that in the later sections. 08:10:15 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 08:11:21 dmiles_afk: was there something in the spec (make-array) that made you think it's not normal? 08:11:56 i cant find anything in the spec that says what it'd be inialized by 08:12:31 dmiles_afk: "If initial-element is not supplied, the consequences of later reading an uninitialized element of new-array are undefined unless either initial-contents is supplied or displaced-to is non-nil." 08:13:27 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-82.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 08:13:53 ah, so ABCL picking out ZERO is mainly becasue that the average denomitors for the verious types i guess.. like int32 bitvetors etc 08:14:17 its a safe choice for undefined behavour i guess 08:14:26 That's what I meant, yes. 08:14:31 g'day 08:14:36 hello schme 08:14:47 schme: had your morning smoke yet? 08:15:25 I believe it chooses #\Space for character arrays and 0 for byte values 08:15:53 beach: Of course :) I'm very impressed that you know I smoke though! 08:16:10 schme: you tell us regularly. 08:16:17 Oh. 08:16:22 But still! 08:16:59 schme: don't smoke 'em if you got 'em 08:17:31 Adamant: That... was scary :) 08:17:55 schme: actually, I exaggerate. You told us twice. 08:18:10 indeed. actually I just wanted to say smoke 'em if you got 'em 08:18:24 beach: That says more about your paying-attention-ness and remberingness than my smoking :) 08:18:30 hah :) 08:18:31 but I'm not big on smoking 08:18:53 schme: My memory is lousy, but I am pretty good with Unix tools and I have the logs on my computer. 08:19:55 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 08:20:15 dmiles_afk: does your lisp support :external-format? 08:20:16 Hi! 08:20:25 hello mrSpec 08:20:35 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 08:20:58 beach: For some time I actually had a habit of mindmapping every lil' bit of information I found out about people. 08:21:07 ehu, i am not familier with :external-format 08:22:12 schme: impressive. 08:22:21 ehu, the reason i was asking is my lisp make-vector returns one initlaized with NIL 08:22:58 and replacing MyLispVector with SimpleVector 08:24:43 beach: impressive, insane stalker warning.. much the same. 08:25:04 dmiles_afk: I know it's an unrelated question. It's just that we're working on supporting different input/output formats (character encodings) for abcl right now. 08:26:14 funny the other night was adding more charnames 08:27:04 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-40.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:27:10 well text input strea do have the ability to change char encoding 08:27:47 reuseing the ones from readers.. but hadnt added a way to change it un the REPL yet 08:28:48 un/in like need to add that to #'OPEN-TEXT 08:29:08 ah. open-text. that's a custom extention then. 08:29:35 I was working on adding :external-format support for streams of element type CHARACTER 08:29:59 I was getting great help, fortunately. 08:30:29 somethink i found is in Classpath if your changing that behind a buffered reader sokmetimes it doesnt update 08:30:45 the CharEncoding 08:31:25 just mentioning that in case you end up or someone else ends up thinking its ignoring youi :external-format 08:31:48 mrSpec: You must be new here on #lisp, right? 08:32:05 Yeah it's my 1st time ;) 08:32:18 lisp coding for 1 week 08:32:34 mrSpec: what made you want to learn Lisp? 08:32:43 University :) 08:32:57 which one? 08:33:23 AGH University of Science and Technology, Cracow, Poland 08:33:49 Nice town. Don't know the university, though. 08:34:00 Have You been here ? 08:34:07 some time ago, yes. 08:34:54 beta-reduction [n=Unknown@213.129.54.27] has joined #lisp 08:36:34 do you use Lisp @work or just coding 4fun ? 08:36:42 yes 08:36:49 for 08:37:12 mrSpec: I teach a few Lisp-based courses at my university, so you can say I use it for my work. 08:37:34 for 08:37:49 beta-reduction: having problems expressing yourself? 08:38:02 ? 08:38:15 beach: What are the courses? I've seen one university in Sweden having a lisp-based course, but it was "Functional programming with Common Lisp". So I assume it was just the tool of choice. 08:38:28 so Lisp is not only on our University :D 08:38:49 beta-reduction: so far you have uttered four things: "yes", "for", "for" and "?". 08:39:06 mrSpec: No, but it's not *that* common. 08:39:24 English 08:39:58 mrSpec: There also seems to pop by people over in the channel dedicated to the other major lisp asking "homework questions". So it's certain that your uni is not alone :) 08:40:19 schme: At the university, there is "programming 3" which used to be called "functional and symbolic programming" (6 credits) and "programming project 3" (3 credits) which is the sequel. At the engineering school they use Common Lisp in the functional-programming course. 08:40:55 Aha. That seems cool with the project course using lisp :) 08:41:22 schme: I also used to teach a very small course called "embedded languages" at the engineering school, but it was replaced. 08:41:43 :( 08:41:58 schme: I have suggested a larger one called "programming (with) a programmable programming language", but it was not accepted this year. We'll see in the future. 08:43:14 Best of luck on that, and keep up the good work with spreading the proper faith :) 08:43:15 beach: beta-reduction isn't really passing turing tests 08:43:27 schme: thanks! 08:43:46 ehu: ah, didn't think of that possibility. 08:44:14 schme: Yeah, the programming project course is good, but very short. This year, they will improve an information system that I wrote, and last year, they improved a word processor. Both are CLIM/McCLIM applications. 08:44:51 I 08:44:53 eh 08:45:15 schme: you sound more and more like beta-reduction :) 08:45:17 I'm trying to convert 3 credits into swedish points here. It can't be much more than a week or two of work. 08:45:24 I have RET next to ' 08:45:42 schme: Come on! Sweden is in the Bologna system! 08:45:51 You'd think so. 08:46:12 Well there are 60 ECTS credits in a year of full-time studies. 08:46:16 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-174.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:23 The Swedish government decided not to force the ECTS credits etc. onto the unis so they can all decide if they go with that or the old. 08:46:26 Most seem to do both. 08:46:29 Ya. 08:46:42 and 40 swedish points. and all this advanced math is too much for me now :) 08:46:53 Much too short a course anyway! 08:47:00 Indeed. 08:47:02 agnel [n=joel@115.99.2.68] has joined #lisp 08:47:45 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-82.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:48:59 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:48:59 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-10.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 08:49:03 Ok. Time to figure out how to feed data to ploticus :) 08:49:10 I plan on having charts today! 08:49:34 of what? 08:50:10 Well nutritional content of food items to start off with. 08:50:31 schme: I assume you know that McCLIM has a PostScript backend, right? 08:50:32 This will all get more fancy when I add the workout stuff and measurements :) 08:50:55 Nope. I had no idea. 08:51:00 morning 08:51:05 hello kiuma 08:51:14 I suppose I could use that to print out progress charts for workout. 08:52:03 How does the postscript backend work anyway? Is it still interactive? 08:52:10 and what on earth would I use it for? :) 08:53:20 As I recall, you create a postscript pane, and apply your usual display function to it, and you have a file with the same contents as your pane would ordinarily have. 08:53:52 I see.. 08:53:54 clim with-output-to-postscript-stream 08:53:54 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/E-1.html#_1964 08:54:13 You mean have ploticus generate postscript? 08:54:22 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-242-188.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:11 schme: Not really. I meant that if you have already used McCLIM to plot things in a pane, you can get hardcopy output of it. 08:55:27 schme: But that probably doesn't solve your problem. 08:55:49 Aaah :) 08:56:00 Ya hardcopy would be cool at times. 08:56:08 No real problem. I just need to learn how to abuse ploticus :) 08:57:04 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 08:57:18 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska176142.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:57:25 Or you can write a Common Lisp version of Ploticus and integrate it into McCLIM :) 08:57:30 -!- beta-reduction [n=Unknown@213.129.54.27] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:58:37 Or you could use the Scigraph application that comes with the McCLIM distribution. 08:58:48 <_deepfire> beach, do you have an opinion on CAPI? 08:58:52 Yes, because the size of my TODO list is too short ;) 08:59:05 beach: Hoh. I'll look into that. That sounds interesting anyway. 08:59:24 _deepfire: Only that it's another way of attempting vendor lock-in. But I am sure it's a nice system. 08:59:27 beach: I was looking at CL-GRAPH to generate my charts, but it didn't do all types so eeeh.. 08:59:42 <_deepfire> btw, the problem with with-output-to-postscript-stream is that it ASCII-only 08:59:54 _deepfire: is that so? 08:59:55 yow. 09:00:11 _deepfire: I wonder how I did all those Gsharp PS files then. 09:00:21 black magic 09:00:22 <_deepfire> beach, I tried outputting cyrillic chars, and was confronted with the lack of mappings 09:00:31 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 09:00:58 <_deepfire> beach, er, I should have said that its /text/ facilities are ASCII-only 09:01:01 _deepfire: you might have a font problem, yes. But that's not a problem with the PS backend. 09:01:25 <_deepfire> not with the PS backend, no -- with w-o-t-p-s 09:02:16 _deepfire: That sounds like it should be fixable. 09:02:45 <_deepfire> beach, I remember making an honest attempt to screw in mappings.. 09:03:51 <_deepfire> the problem, IIRC, was that it ties character names with specific font, but I may well be wrong 09:03:53 _deepfire: Either way, text output the way we do it right now is bound to be strange, given that we use the (say) CLX backend for drawing text on the screen and (presumably) a PS font in the PS backend. We need to implement my Metafont-like embedded language so that we can get consistent looks across platforms. 09:04:19 er, across backends. 09:06:04 <_deepfire> beach, do you think that a free implementation of CAPI is desirable, in the context of the alternative being spending that effort on CLIM? 09:06:55 <_deepfire> I know it's not a simple question.. 09:07:29 <_deepfire> true way vs. practical.. 09:08:23 _deepfire: I am afraid I don't know enough about CAPI to have an opinion about that. 09:08:58 I see before me the next iteration being the layer above CAPI and CLIM.. with the CAPI and CLIM backends ;) 09:09:25 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:09:51 <_deepfire> beach, one of the problems, is that their documentation is somewhat useless -- it's a flat list of functions, with their descriptions. 09:10:21 So it's worse than the CLIM documentation, then :) 09:10:24 <_deepfire> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CAPRM/html/capiref.htm 09:10:46 <_deepfire> beach, indeed 09:10:47 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bb47fc52aefbc1c5] has left #lisp 09:12:38 So one would need someone who has worked with it and knows it inside out, eh? 09:15:04 -!- agnel [n=joel@115.99.2.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:16:55 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.87.160] has quit [] 09:17:21 schme: in order to do what? 09:17:54 To do the free CAPI thing :) 09:18:02 Ah, OK. 09:19:36 _deepfire: What would be your reason for wanting a free CAPI? 09:20:16 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:23:55 <_deepfire> beach, it might be simpler to implement than CLIM and its the next closest thing to an established Lisp GUI API 09:24:27 _deepfire: Yeah, but we already implemented CLIM :) 09:24:55 _deepfire: I suspect that you would have the same problems with a CAPI implementation that we have with McCLIM now, i.e., nobody has time to make it "pretty". 09:25:56 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 09:26:10 _deepfire: I think McCLIM is already very usable, and only a small amount of effort away from being truly great. Re-implementing CAPI from scratch would be much harder, is my guess. 09:26:12 <_deepfire> beach, CLIM is still somewhat inconvenient to deploy on win32 -- you need a win32 X server, as non-CLX backends are honestly lacking 09:26:28 <_deepfire> McCLIM, that is 09:26:49 _deepfire: That would be the same problem with supposed CAPI backends I would think. 09:28:42 <_deepfire> beach, whenever I confront mcclim internals I get a depression about my mental skills. Oh well. :-/ 09:29:42 _deepfire: Ah, that's a different problem that I often run into. One has the impression that if one were to implement it oneself, then it would be easier. But I suspect that's just a phychological phenomenon. 09:30:17 It probably would be 'cause one would know the insides real good. But it wouldn't be easier for anyone else :) 09:30:41 _deepfire: That said, it would be good at this point to take a module from McCLIM and rewrite it, given what we now know. 09:31:01 schme: Exactly! 09:31:21 <_deepfire> beach, a module? 09:32:05 _deepfire: well, take a chapter or a section from the spec, throw away the current code for it, and write it from scratch in a proper way. 09:32:52 ah 09:32:56 _deepfire: the part that needed that the most was output recording, and gilberth just did that. I just haven't looked at his code yet, nor tested it to see that it doesn't break to many existing program.s 09:33:05 seems truncating my strings got ugly. I guess it's scrollbar :( 09:33:18 I don't want scrollbar :( 09:33:50 hrm.. 09:33:56 and it seems my current scrollbar is not working. 09:33:58 hehe 09:34:03 <_deepfire> beach, that's good news! 09:34:08 schme: I am thinking that might be another output-recording problem. Normally, if you are in :allow mode, it should generate the full output records, so that they are displayed when the pane is resized. 09:34:47 Ihave a vertical scrollbar, and I iterate over this list of things presenting the objects... and needless to say the list is well longer than what fits in a page of pane. So I assumed the scrollbar would let me scroll up and down. 09:35:16 beach: Oh I see. My issue with the way it was was that it started linewrapping, so I truncated the strings. 09:35:35 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:36:29 darned stuff :) 09:38:33 schme: That's what the scrollbar is for, yes. And if you just keep displaying things, it should generate all the output records, and let you scroll the pane. 09:39:02 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:41:11 beach: I must be doing something wrong then :) 09:41:20 schme: another thing you can try if that doesn't work is to use draw-text instead of the stream functions. 09:42:19 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:42:21 I do this (iterate (for foo in '(a thousand objects or so)) (formatting-row (pane) (formatting-cell (pane) (present foo)))))))))) 09:42:22 I'll try the draw-text 09:42:37 schme: as I recall, the line-wrap stuff happens in stream-write-char, which gest used by print, format, etc. If you first create the string to display and then use draw-text on it, there is no way that I can see how it could break it up for you. 09:43:04 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:43:17 schme: OK, so in the present method, use draw-text instead. 09:43:20 Ah cools I'll try that. 09:43:30 Well maybe that will solve both mah problems :) 09:45:43 beach: That's great, mate! It *does* save me all the truncation! Didn't solve mah scrollbar though. 09:46:03 one down! 09:46:28 Ya :) 09:53:18 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:54:21 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 09:55:03 milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.204] has joined #lisp 09:56:35 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 09:58:06 evenson [n=evenson@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 09:59:43 OK, so what's your scrolling problem again? 10:06:57 lyte_ [n=lyte@220-244-221-67-nsw-pppoe.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:09:55 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 10:10:24 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:11:04 oh hey. 10:12:42 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:12:56 beach: My scrolling problem is this: I have a pane who sure looks like it has a vertical scrollbar (assuming vertical is up down, I get 'em confused), and I have a display-function for it that does (iterate (for foo in '(lotsa objects)) (formatting-row (pane) (formatting-cell (pane) (present foo)))). With the present method just doing draw-text* at 0 0. 10:12:58 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.204] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:13:00 beach: Which seemed just fine in my head :) 10:13:15 beach: 'cept the scrollbar doesn't seem to realise I actually want to be able to scroll around. 10:14:32 schme: you do get a scroll bar, but when you try to move it, nothing happens? 10:19:00 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:16 milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.204] has joined #lisp 10:24:01 beach: Yup. and it doesn't seem to imply it is scrollable by the gfx it has :) 10:25:01 hmm, could you show a screen shot of that? 10:25:23 yup.. uploading it now. 10:26:10 upstream is the slow stream. 10:26:12 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.204] has quit [Client Quit] 10:27:58 beach: http://imagebin.ca/view/oJEjcoD.html 10:28:42 -!- lyte_ [n=lyte@220-244-221-67-nsw-pppoe.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:29:28 darren` [n=user@c-24-7-88-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:10 schme: OK, what about the code? 10:30:37 Sure what parts of it? 10:30:58 The definition of the application pane, especially. 10:31:05 er, application frame 10:31:29 (:panes (nut-db-pane :application :display-function 'display-nutrition-database-pane))) 10:31:58 oh the whole frame! 10:32:08 lisppaste: url 10:32:08 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 10:33:11 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 10:33:54 -!- photon2 is now known as photon 10:34:15 schme pasted "hh-frame" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69943 10:34:54 kib2 [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:38 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.68.61] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:37:32 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:37:52 I seem to remember having something of the same issue when I was playing around with mcclim last year, I don't quite remember what I did to fix it :) 10:38:37 schme: have you tried putting scoll-bars nil in the pane and (scrolling (:scroll-bar :vertical) nutrition-database-pane) in the layout instead? 10:39:38 nope. 10:39:51 I haven't tried anything, I just noticed the issue :) 10:40:50 nope 10:40:57 It did make the border of the pane look real funny though :) 10:41:28 where can I find any information how to write my own set-difference function ? 10:42:00 mrSpec: Why would you want to do that? 10:42:05 mrSpec: Are you looking for the lisp side of the information, or the set theory side of the information? 10:42:37 i have to compare unions 10:42:43 without lisp functions :( 10:42:58 such as set-difference 10:43:26 and normal eq failed eg: (eq '(1 2) '(2 1)) 10:43:42 For some values of fail :) 10:44:09 I mean, I need function for which (1 2) is the same as (2 1) 10:44:43 Ok. Do you have any ideas of how to bust the nut? 10:45:15 laundry run! 10:45:55 bust the nut ? 10:46:01 start ? 10:46:14 mrSpec: You could.. maybe make 'em have the same order and do it that way. Or perhaps write a member function and use that. 10:46:32 Well what are your plans on implementing the function? How would you do it in some other language? 10:46:36 ok laundry run for real :) 10:46:37 Ahh, sort them 10:46:42 and then eq :) 10:47:14 mrSpec: eq won't do. 10:47:33 pilot1123 [i=pilot@bobo.ds5.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 10:47:42 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:49:18 ahh equal not eq ? 10:49:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-10.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:50:46 matley [n=matley@83.225.43.112] has joined #lisp 10:51:12 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-10.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 10:51:47 oudeis [n=oudeis@85-250-163-27.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:52:49 morning. 10:56:08 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.43.112] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:56:22 matley [n=matley@83.225.43.112] has joined #lisp 10:56:36 etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:44 kenny [n=kentilto@ool-18bb7ae5.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:34 <_deepfire> mrSpec, http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node74.html for an overview of equality predicates 11:00:01 <_deepfire> I was unable to found a satisfying overview in CLHS 11:00:14 thx 11:00:58 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:01:40 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 11:02:14 mrSpec: equal won't give you the difference though ? 11:02:47 jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:49 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user154-78.wireless.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 11:03:14 -!- darren` [n=user@c-24-7-88-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:03:41 won't :S 11:03:50 mrSpec: Also if you are not allowed to use premade functions, then EQUAL is out of the question too. 11:04:22 mrSpec: EQUAL will just give you truth or false. You still need to get the difference somehow. 11:04:59 tic: G'day tic! 11:05:00 Equal is allowed 11:05:01 And sorting is iffy; what if you have a domaine that is not totally ordered. 11:05:06 hello tic 11:05:14 we cant use union functions 11:05:15 Hehehe. 11:05:21 Oh. 11:05:32 I'll paste my code it will be easier to explain 11:05:35 <_deepfire> mrSpec, "we", as in who? 11:05:46 we - students :D 11:05:58 _deepfire: mrSpec and the rest of the crew busy trying to solve my scrollbar problem. 11:06:12 :) 11:06:19 mrSpec: Normally, set union/instersection etc should work on any domain that admits an equality predicate, and you shouldn't require it to be ordered. 11:06:30 how are you fine gentlemen today? 11:07:11 *beach* looks around to try to find a fine gentleman. 11:07:14 I make unione in the same way as list ? (setq foo '( 1 2 3)) ? 11:07:26 no miscrediting on Saturdays, beach! 11:07:47 mrSpec, any particular reason for using setq? 11:08:04 milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.178] has joined #lisp 11:08:14 <_deepfire> mrSpec, its up to you to select a representation. 11:08:15 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-242-188.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:46 tic, why not ? 11:09:26 mrSpec, because SETF is preferred nowadays. It's the exception to the rule to use the most specific tool for the problem. 11:09:26 _deepfire, but when can I select it ? 11:09:44 mrSpec, it works on more things than symbols, short answer. makes code easier to read and fewer mistakes made. 11:09:56 ahh, ok thx 11:10:09 will use it 11:10:24 MrSpec pasted "member2" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69944 11:10:29 mrSpec, if you haven't already, have a look at Practical Common Lisp. It's available freely online at http://gigamonkeys.com/book 11:10:40 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@85-250-163-27.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:10:55 ok 11:11:23 Hrm. You do want to read that book. Lemme reformat that into more conventional Common Lisp. :) 11:11:30 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 11:11:31 as You look on my code, the only problem is in 4th line 11:11:47 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user154-78.wireless.utoronto.ca] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:12:03 mrSpec: No, that's not true. 11:12:13 not ? :| 11:12:45 mrSpec: Almost every line is badly indented, and some lines have single parentheses on them. 11:13:00 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:13:51 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:13:52 hmm I havent read about formatting code :| 11:13:56 in lisp... 11:14:19 mrSpec: You need to do that if you are going to show us code, becaue Lisp is truly unreadable if badly formatted. 11:14:39 ah, ok 11:14:42 tic annotated #69944 with "re-formatted" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69944#1 11:15:08 tic: why mix first and car? 11:15:14 I di? Hrm. 11:15:28 thx tic 11:16:07 Is it common to line up the "resultb" of the cond in columns? 11:16:18 beach, again without any reason, mistake 11:17:29 beach: I did a testy thing here with my pane. Added a (dotimes (foo 100) (format pane "huhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhu"))) to fill it up with stuff. With that the scrollbar works just fine. So I guess it's some issue with the formatting table 11:17:34 tic annotated #69944 with "Save the environment -- don't use CARs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69944#2 11:18:40 I guess it makes the table fit :) 11:19:17 car is so bad ? 11:19:32 No, but I mixed CAR/FIRST and CDR/REST. 11:19:43 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:19:48 ah 11:19:50 http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/ch17s02.html 11:19:51 the latter being more readable, it makes no sense to keep using CAR if it's a real list. 11:19:56 Is that supposed to be blank? 11:19:59 (true list? what are they called?) 11:20:09 proper list 11:20:12 mrSpec, also, you can name variables the same as functions. 11:20:15 H4ns, thanks. 11:20:29 No minion? :( 11:21:16 mrSpec, see "Formatting Lisp Code" on http://gigamonkeys.com/book/syntax-and-semantics.html 11:21:31 will read it :) 11:22:30 schme: I seem to remember that. So just draw a dot after the table or something. 11:22:57 ok so this is well formatted code :) but how about this equal ? 11:23:22 mrSpec, eq/eql/equal/equalp? 11:23:46 Oh I see :) 11:24:01 mrSpec, it's explained in the book, probably better than I would be able to fit in here on IRC without tempting the patience of the rest of the people around here. :) 11:24:05 schme: I have this in my code: ;; this seems necessary in order to activate scrolling (format pane "~%")) 11:24:08 :) 11:24:23 schme: If my memory had been better, I would have remembered right away. 11:24:38 tic, tried them all, NULL :S 11:24:44 tic, what title ? 11:24:53 Aaah. 11:25:01 <_deepfire> minion, tell mrSpec about pcl 11:25:02 tic: It seems the beach-bot needs rebooting 11:25:43 schme: so I guess that was the last of your CLIM problems, right? At least for now. 11:26:30 beach: Indeed! Works like a charm after just a (format pane "~%") :) 11:26:34 beach: Thanks for all the help there. 11:26:45 beach: Is this formatting-table a bug or is it correct? 11:26:51 schme: No problem. Glad I could help. 11:27:02 schme: I would think it is a bug. 11:27:34 Lovely entries in the USDA nutrition database "cheese food, imitation" 11:28:04 <_deepfire> mrSpec, http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ is a good Lisp tutorial. 11:28:13 schme: yeah, they can't call it cheese, so that call it "cheese food". 11:28:18 mrSpec, open up the URL pointing to gigamonkeys.com that I pointed you to, and search for "Formatting Lisp Code" 11:28:24 alexsei [n=alexsei@217.149.187.98] has joined #lisp 11:28:30 we have imitation cheese here in Sweden nowadays too! made out of crappy veggy fatt. 11:28:43 schme: when I went to university, there as a thing called "stekbullar" because they couln't legally call it "köttbullar". 11:28:45 I seem to remember having something of the reverse issue some time back. I was displaying a table with pixmaps in each cell. 2 rows by 13 or something. I had to print a ~% before the table or it just skipped the first cell. 11:28:51 beach: hahha! 11:29:34 tic: I remember vegan cheese from my vegan days. I went to the health food store and looked at it. "So.. if I grate this and put it on a homemade pizza and put it in the oven.. it will melt?" "YES! YES IT WILL!" 11:29:40 (no it does not) 11:31:43 schme, I'm happy that you realized you're a human and not a rat. :) 11:32:19 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-60-230.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 11:32:24 <_deepfire> There should be a slime contrib for divorcing visualised and stored indentation. 11:32:37 _deepfire, to what end? *curious* 11:32:38 tic: Me too. 11:33:16 <_deepfire> I have a goddamned 26" wide screen, and I won't, for the hell of it, restrict myself to 80 characters per line. 11:33:22 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-60-230.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:33:30 So, in uffi, after I have used "load-foreign-library," I need to use def-function to make the prototypes for whatever I want to call? 11:33:39 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-60-230.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 11:33:43 _deepfire: blasphemy! 11:33:57 <_deepfire> schme, practicality. 11:33:57 _deepfire, so don't use full-screen windows. :-) 11:34:25 *tic* too has a 1920x1200 screen. 1/3 and 2/3 of the width is useful. 11:36:00 I find the 2 by 3 split nice to be able to view more code :) 11:36:45 <_deepfire> tic, I'm not terribly fond of purposeful limitation of perceptory input. 11:36:51 ejs [n=eugen@126-242-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:55 beach: That's brilliant with the thing to fix the scrollbar working. It solved my other problem too. On the first display of the pane McCLIM had decided three characters, then linewrap was the way to go. and this got fixed on redisplay. With the ~% there.. all is just well :) 11:38:12 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:38:42 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F419.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:54 _deepfire, how do you propose the indentation would be? scaled by a fixed amount for each level? 11:41:47 <_deepfire> tic, first, classification: PROGN-bodies, property lists, other lists. 11:42:17 <_deepfire> progn-bodies never get merged into one line. 11:42:42 <_deepfire> property lists scale in pairs 11:42:46 <_deepfire> lists scale arbitrarily 11:42:46 like, (progn (blarf) \n\t (boing) ...) ? 11:42:47 What is a good maximum recommended columns now that 80 is out the door? 300? 200? 11:42:54 _deepfire, that is indeed interesting. 11:43:25 schme: Excellent! 11:44:10 <_deepfire> setf lists are a special category too 11:45:06 <_deepfire> they are both progn and pairwise: (setf a b\n\tc d ...) 11:46:50 -!- pilot1123 [i=pilot@bobo.ds5.agh.edu.pl] has left #lisp 11:47:56 <_deepfire> so, the &body/&rest is clearly not enough. 11:47:58 _deepfire, yeah. 11:48:27 <_deepfire> &progn, &setf, &plist... 11:50:48 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-242-188.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:52 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 11:51:28 <_deepfire> I wish there was a way to treat arbitrary &-symbols in lambda lists as &rest. 11:51:41 why? 11:51:53 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:52:27 mulligan [n=user@e178003013.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:52:40 <_deepfire> fe[nl]ix, CL already does that for &body -- a richer set would mean more expressivity. 11:53:50 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:56:42 The devil is in details, though. For example &rest in macro-lambda-lists can be destructered, but arbitrary destructuring may not make sense for &foo. 11:57:55 <_deepfire> tcr, for example? 11:58:23 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:58:37 <_deepfire> (for further one :-) 11:58:47 I used &any in Slime to describe EVAL-WHEN situations, and OPTIMIZE qualities. 11:59:28 they're basically plists with a constant as key. Destructuring should be like for &key. 12:00:04 <_deepfire> tcr, ah, so not arbitrary then -- (register-&rest-synonym '&foo) 12:01:09 That wouldn't allow me to implement &any. My point is that this needs some thought. 12:01:50 <_deepfire> Right, it would allow to opt out for &any. 12:02:06 <_deepfire> I agree that it's not all clear. 12:02:10 -!- mrSpec is now known as SpecAway 12:02:57 I invite it to hack something that pleases you into your implementation of choice. :) 12:02:58 s/it/you/1 12:03:33 billstclair [n=billstcl@dsl-205-231-25-39.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:49 <_deepfire> tcr, another important question -- whether it would constitute a violation of the CL spec, and whether an acceptable one, if so.. 12:07:11 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:07:49 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:08:04 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:08:10 <_deepfire> aha LAMBDA-LIST-KEYWORDS is "a list, the elements of which are implementation-dependent, but which must contain at least ..." 12:08:56 <_deepfire> And "Implementations are free to provide additional lambda list keywords". 12:09:02 -!- etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:09:47 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a Llama again!"] 12:10:35 -!- evenson [n=evenson@213.47.71.36] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:11:07 <_deepfire> Hmm, but seemingly not so for macro lambda lists.. 12:13:03 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:41 <_deepfire> Arguably, the intent seem to be for all of them to be extensible, though. 12:15:26 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:31 jfl [n=jfl@n219077180074.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 12:18:40 <_deepfire> tcr, so, you would like to allow destructuring constraints, which &rest doesn't provide, right? 12:19:05 <_deepfire> So one would like to be specify indentation properties orthogonally from destructuring constraints. 12:19:15 <_deepfire> to be able to specify 12:21:08 <_deepfire> And so, interpreting all unknown parameters as &rest violates that. 12:21:22 <_deepfire> er, all unknown &-symbols. 12:21:52 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:22:56 *tcr* gtg. 12:22:59 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:23:20 <_deepfire> Ok, so it's even easier -- as you have to intepret non-standard &-syms youself, the Lisp should never see them. 12:25:02 <_deepfire> So you only map &-symbols to &rest if you tell that you want an &rest-style specification. 12:25:19 jpcooper [n=justin@cpc3-broo2-0-0-cust918.renf.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:29 <_deepfire> The problem is, though, how do you mix indentation and other properties in custom &-destructurables. 12:28:53 <_deepfire> Your &-symbol have to be both meaningful for you, for your semantic purposes /and/, separately, convey a well-known meaning to the editor.. 12:29:22 <_deepfire> Stated this way, it seems impossible. 12:29:33 k_kkbd [n=kbd_@222.65.168.31] has joined #lisp 12:29:46 custom rules for all operators? 12:30:15 <_deepfire> tic, in what sense? 12:32:32 _deepfire, not in the function def. itself, but external to it. That's one way to do it, but oh-so-tedious. 12:33:44 <_deepfire> tic, if it is only required rarely, it can work, I think. 12:34:23 <_deepfire> still, not pretty.. 12:34:34 Agreed. 12:38:22 dkcl [n=dkcl@189.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:38:58 -!- jfl [n=jfl@n219077180074.netvigator.com] has quit [] 12:39:05 beach: if it were a simple matter of making mcclim prettier, someone would've done it by now, but there are a number of more important issues needing resolution before that seems worthwhile 12:39:19 hefner, is there a TODO? :) 12:39:48 I'm not aware of one. 12:42:04 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:25 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-242-188.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:27 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-60-230.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:45:43 -!- demoncyber_ [n=demoncyb@189.31.114.185] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:52:29 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:54:11 dkcl [n=dkcl@189.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:01:36 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:02:10 ciao 13:03:16 -!- SpecAway is now known as mrSpec 13:05:08 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a Llama again!"] 13:10:30 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp435.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:11:01 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:31 elurin [n=user@85.104.132.54] has joined #lisp 13:12:52 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-60-230.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 13:15:20 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-242-188.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:29 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.178] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:17:01 hefner: I personally agree that there are more important issues, but the complaint about looks is the most frequent one that I hear. 13:18:59 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:54 tic: what would you do with such a list if it existed? 13:19:58 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:20:25 beach, nothing, as usual. I collect information. (that's why I can recite 52 decimals of Pi...) 13:26:44 what's the right type specifier to use to say "list containing elements of type x"? 13:27:03 -!- kidd [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 13:27:08 kidd [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:56 locklace: list 13:28:55 what's the right type specifier to use to say "list containing only elements of type x"? 13:29:18 there is no such 13:30:13 you can make your own, but checking it will be not O(1) 13:31:43 ok 13:32:34 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 13:39:48 claudia` [n=user@bl9-179-138.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 13:43:41 Hi. I'm setting up my emacs+slime+sbcl 13:44:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:44:09 I added some slime configs in .emacs 13:44:12 wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:25 that lead to errors while loading emacs 13:45:09 can any of you point me to some solution? 13:45:20 error desc: 13:45:22 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:45:28 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:46:31 (From *Messages*:) cond: Keyword argument (slime-fancy slime-asdf slime-banner) not one of (:autodoc :typeout-frame :highlight-edits) 13:47:07 relevant .emacs code: 13:47:22 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:47:31 (require 'slime) 13:47:31 13:47:31 (eval-after-load "slime" 13:47:33 not here! paste it to lisppaste 13:47:34 '(progn 13:47:37 (add-to-list 'load-path "~/Library/Emacs/site-lisp/slime/contrib") 13:47:39 oh 13:47:39 sorry 13:48:02 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [".. ugh .. IE"] 13:48:21 had no idea this was not the place. so I should visit lisppaste? 13:48:37 claudia`: if you have more than one line, yes 13:48:41 lisppaste: url? 13:48:41 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 13:49:56 how can I sort alphanumeric symbols in Lisp ? 13:50:06 claudia`: do you have slime-setup in your .emacs? 13:50:32 bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:50:43 what i have in my .emacs: (require 'slime) and (slime-setup) 13:51:11 mrSpec: Use a comparison function that works on such symbols, for instance string< 13:52:28 Hi stassats. in my .emacs I have (requuire 'slime) and 13:52:55 some eval-after-load "slime" 13:52:58 statements 13:52:59 -!- ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.73.110] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:53:20 ok, then try to remove them and put (slime-setup) 13:53:21 ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.73.110] has joined #lisp 13:53:29 if this allright? (defun g (fn)) (defun f (foo bar) (g #'(lambda (x) (+ bar x)) foo)) 13:53:32 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:53:40 sorry, wrong spelling: (require 'slime) 13:55:01 bertskert: g doesn't do anything, and in f you call it with 2 arguments while it accepts only one 13:55:27 beach, ok thx 13:55:34 do you think the (eval-after-load "slime" '(progn (slime-setup is too much? 13:56:16 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:56:48 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:01 uchitoru [n=user@85.139.117.150] has joined #lisp 13:57:26 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has left #lisp 13:57:33 claudia`: slime-setup should be called before load, as it e.g. adds contrib paths to load-path 13:58:47 claudia`: no need in eval-after-load, just (slime-setup) etc. 13:59:18 oudeis_: and stassats thanks. I'm trying it now 13:59:45 if you want autoload, you need to require slime-autoloads, not slime 14:00:17 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-058-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:15 (defun horiz-ent (kak) 14:01:15 (loop for i in kak when (find-if #'numberp i) collect 14:01:15 (loop for j in i collect 14:01:15 (if (numberp j) j 14:01:15 (if (not (zerop (cdr j)))(list (cdr j))))))) 14:01:18 sorry! 14:01:23 lisppaste: url 14:01:26 if I load a .lisp file, I'll have to M-x slime if I simply require slime, is this it? 14:01:57 is it flood-the-channel day? there are about 300 people here... think before you paste! 14:02:33 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:02:36 claudia`: yes, M-x slime is one of the ways to start Slime 14:02:43 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 14:03:16 but if I need to enter automatically in slime-mode I should substitute the (require 'slime) with (require 'slime-aotoloads) 14:03:21 am I correct? 14:03:36 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:04:09 claudia, you are confusing M-x slime and M-x slime-mode 14:04:23 claudia`: you also need to set path to your lisp (in .emacs), like that: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/sbcl"), after that you can simply M-x slime 14:04:25 claudia`: no, you will get slime-mode with (require 'slime) and (slime-setup) 14:04:50 claudia`: you will need to M-x slime in order to start lisp and get repl 14:05:34 I already added to my load-path the site-lisp/slime and site-list/slime/contrib 14:05:51 I get an internal error when I try to do this: (defun do-smth (foo) foo) (defun f (foo bar) (g foo #'(lambda (x) (+ x (do-smth bar))))) Can I really use a parameter inside a lambda sent to another functin liek that? about (do-smth bar) I mean.. 14:06:21 claudia, it doesn't hurt to do it yourself, but slime-setup adds contrib automatically 14:06:25 and actually I can run slime from emacs. I just wanted to add some setups to load with slime 14:06:30 How does that differ from regular function calling, bertskert? 14:06:47 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:06:51 bertskert, oh, nevermind. yes, it's called a closure. 14:06:56 bertskert: is G the same as before? 14:07:31 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:55 bertskert pasted "internal error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69951 14:08:02 azuk: yeah, the problem is that when I try to add slime-setup emacs complains 14:08:09 claudia, you mean contribs? then you just need to say (slime-setup '(foo bar)) after (require 'slime-autoloads) or (require 'slime), whichever you use 14:08:40 bertskert: and where is that error? 14:09:07 bertskert annotated #69951 with "error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69951#1 14:09:11 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178003013.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:09:35 ok, you have improper number of arguments 14:09:43 bertskert: you do (funcall fn) , but fn requires an argument, x 14:09:45 f takes 2? 14:09:58 ah 14:10:15 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:10:22 thx! =) 14:11:38 -!- claudia` [n=user@bl9-179-138.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:15:02 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Operation timed out] 14:15:37 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:19:56 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:20:56 claudia` [n=user@bl9-179-138.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:21:25 sorry. My emacs died while I was testing this slime thingy 14:21:36 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:21:51 is something wrong with this? (slime-setup '(inferior-slime slime-asdf)) 14:22:36 As I read the slime manual, I feel more and more confused 14:23:03 claudia`: nope. looks right to me. 14:25:25 inferior-slime isn't a normal contrib, you can't load it using slime-setup 14:26:03 ok.. 14:26:21 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:00 I'm really trying to get to a table or something that tells me what can I have as arguments to slime-setup 14:27:13 err, actually, I was wrong, ignore that 14:27:27 claudia`: any of the .el files in contirb 14:27:30 as a list 14:27:42 (as per the docstring on slime-setup) 14:29:19 C-h f slime-setup is your friend (and C-h f is your friend in general) 14:29:42 I was reading the manual that came with slime. 14:29:55 3 occurences of slime-setup 14:30:01 ... 14:30:20 in theory it's not a very difficult function to explain. (or use) 14:31:36 yeah... but even C-h f cannot provide a list of options to add to slime-setup 14:31:47 yeah, the first two occurences explain basic slime installation and the third shows how to load contribs with slime-setup 14:31:48 no, and there'd be no real point. 14:31:51 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@221.237.117.207] has joined #lisp 14:31:51 look in teh contrib directory 14:32:06 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:00 I found an example at http://www.newartisans.com/blog_files/common.lisp.on.osx.php 14:33:06 at least some of the packages are documented in the section 9 Contributed Packages of the manual 14:33:19 claudia`: what are you trying to do? 14:33:51 i would suggest starting with (slime-setup) or (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 14:34:09 segv: I've tried that 14:34:09 slime-fancy is a meta-contrib which requires a nice (imho) set of useful contribs 14:34:12 and? 14:35:06 lauching emacs --debug-init 14:35:20 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:39:06 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 14:39:43 -!- alexsei [n=alexsei@217.149.187.98] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:41:04 the error is error ("Keyword argument (slime-fancy) not one of (:autodoc :typeout-frame :highlight-edits)") 14:41:12 :-( 14:41:58 is your slime recent? 14:42:32 fruitbag [n=bluefish@78.147.204.138] has joined #lisp 14:42:35 just installed it from source with fink 14:42:39 -!- fruitbag [n=bluefish@78.147.204.138] has left #lisp 14:42:43 from cvs? 14:43:28 looking up version... 14:43:38 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:43:54 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 14:44:55 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.43.112] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:45:31 in the install dir for slime, the Changelog entries are from 2006 14:45:55 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 14:45:56 it is too old 14:46:15 you need fresh slime from cvs 14:46:18 hum... do you think so? 14:46:32 it was the most recent at fink 14:46:35 yes, it is more than two years old 14:46:40 today is 2008 14:46:47 I know...! 14:47:30 The thing is: this is just the Changelog... a file probably deprecated 14:47:53 No, it's not deprecated. 14:47:54 let me see at fink 14:47:55 no it's not deprecated 14:47:57 Please listen to stassats. 14:48:01 okok 14:48:09 I'm always listening 14:49:36 so, I have version 2.0-1 14:51:18 I am going to make you a recommendation that will save you a lot of time and effort. 14:51:33 Delete everything Lisp-related you have installed from fink, and install it manually from upstream binaries or CVS. 14:52:43 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:55:33 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 14:55:58 matley [n=matley@91.80.198.31] has joined #lisp 14:59:00 G'morning all. 14:59:15 Good morning nyef. 14:59:21 Did you by any chance see my /msg to you the other day? 14:59:31 Yes, I did. Thanks. 14:59:58 Unfortunately, I don't have any spare budget for such hardware acquisitions, and I don't really want any more hardware lying around, tbh. 15:00:51 The next bit of hardware I want to buy is a half-TB or larger drive for my tablet, and that's already going to be waiting for a while. 15:01:07 OK. I wasn't sure if you'd be interested or not, so I thought I'd share. 15:01:23 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-194.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:01:30 (I'm also hoping that TB and larger laptop drives will become available and relatively inexpensive within the next year.) 15:03:18 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:03:50 I think I might try to sort out the addressing modes for the load/store instructions today. 15:05:19 Or I might declare a weekend, and work on something else instead. 15:06:39 Heh. Alas, I'm sufficiently busy and my partner-in-crime's schedule is sufficiently wacky that I'm going to be doing Real Work this weekend. 15:07:28 Oh well. 15:07:51 -!- elurin [n=user@85.104.132.54] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:32 Anyway, I'm keen to follow your progress, and maybe when you reach the point of starting to translate VOPs, I can clear off a little free time to help out. 15:08:33 I came to the conclusion yesterday that a label and a label+offset are reasonable things to want to use as addresses for a load/store instruction. 15:09:04 I've been updating port-log.txt online every day. 15:09:34 qbg [n=quickbas@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 15:10:08 Would you happen to know how we measure the speed of fasloading? 15:10:26 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:29 Or is that a question I'd have to ask Xof or nikodemus? 15:13:48 vasa [n=vasa@mm-77-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 15:16:12 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:05 dkcl [n=dkcl@189.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:18:44 m00t [n=chatzill@78.40.81.1] has joined #lisp 15:22:00 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:03 -!- kib2 [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 15:24:54 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:53 x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 15:28:12 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:29:25 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:30:32 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-77-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 15:32:40 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:32:53 x6j8x__ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 15:34:11 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:25 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:35:31 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:54 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:39:16 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:40:31 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp435.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 15:42:47 -!- x6j8x__ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 15:43:00 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 15:43:26 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086002.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 15:48:16 milanj [n=milan@79.101.138.239] has joined #lisp 15:48:59 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:49:14 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 15:50:31 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:18 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 15:52:44 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:30 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.192.211] has joined #lisp 15:55:08 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 15:56:41 hi there, if I've got a list with (e.g.) 2 elements inside and a (e.g.) format function with "~A,~A~%" control string can I somehow destructure this list such that it would appear as two arguments to the format call? basically something like the @ sign in macros but this time in functions. cheers 15:56:58 Hi, again. I've retrieved the cvs version of slime 15:58:08 clhs ~{ 15:58:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgd.htm 15:59:10 if I try to specify in my .emacs (slime-setup '(inferior-slime)) 15:59:39 emacs reports an error again (the same error as before) 16:00:28 pkhuong: thanks, but the format function was just an example with which the work around is easy, but what about different functions? 16:01:15 ah you want apply. 16:03:05 sheesh.. is there some amazing lisp-mode thing in emacs to enable to make the ['s and ]' in CLSQL syntax indent and match nicely? 16:03:19 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@208.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 16:03:34 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:04:01 chandler: are you here still? 16:04:21 claudia`: Why '(inferior-slime)? Where are you getting that code from? 16:04:37 pkhuong: something like this: (apply #'format t "~A~A~%" the-two-element-list)? 16:04:43 I did just what you said and co from cvs the november 2008 release of slime 16:05:29 but there is no way I can add some simple configs to my .emacs 16:05:33 :-( 16:06:09 claudia`: Who told you to add (slime-setup '(inferior-slime)) to your .emacs? 16:07:22 ahaas: do you know some pointers to define how to configure slime-setup in .emas? 16:09:07 claudia`: Have you tried the slime manual? 16:09:17 yes, of course 16:09:43 you'll find 3 occurrences of slime-setup in the manual 16:09:59 inetic: sure; see 16:10:02 cltl2 apply 16:10:02 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node81.html 16:10:02 and none explains what options are there 16:11:06 besiria` [n=user@ppp083212086002.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 16:11:12 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@208.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:06 you can find an example of slime-setup here: http://www.newartisans.com/blog_files/common.lisp.on.osx.php 16:12:26 and the guy seems happy with his .emacs 16:12:29 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086002.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:43 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 16:12:44 -!- qbg [n=quickbas@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 16:12:47 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-60.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:13:26 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:43 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:37 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 16:15:01 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:39 Hey gang. What's the magic for converting double-floats to integers? 16:16:43 claudia`: So, (slime-setup) doesn't work for you, either? 16:16:47 ROUND 16:16:56 INTEGER-DECODE-FLOAT ? 16:16:57 TRUNCATE, FLOOR, or CEILING 16:17:00 gigamonkey: THANKS 16:17:02 ;) 16:17:12 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F58B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:39 ahaas: yes, (slime-setup) leads to no error. but I'd like to configure a bit 16:20:19 claudia`: What exactly is the problem? All I can tell is that you want to load a non-existent contrib called "inferior-slime". What kind of configuring do you want to do? 16:20:32 that contrib exists 16:20:59 slime-fancy also does not work 16:21:36 ("Keyword argument (slime-fancy) not one of (:autodoc :typeout-frame :highlight-edits)")) error("Keyword argument %s not one of (:autodoc :typeout-frame :highlight-edits)" (slime-fancy)) 16:21:55 claudia`: Sorry, I didn't see inferior-slime.el in my contrib folder. 16:22:30 ahaas: claudia$ ls contrib/slime-fancy.el 16:22:41 and it exists 16:23:01 claudia$ ls contrib/inferior-slime.el 16:23:01 contrib/inferior-slime.el 16:23:01 16:23:08 also exists 16:24:00 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F5A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:24:07 claudia`: If you check the value of load-path in your emacs, does it show the contrib directory? 16:24:39 I added that in my .emacs before the requires call 16:24:45 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:25:03 (add-to-list 'load-path "~/Library/Emacs/site-lisp/slime/contrib") 16:25:40 yhara [n=yhara@207.13.14.193] has joined #lisp 16:26:38 -!- yhara [n=yhara@207.13.14.193] has quit [Client Quit] 16:26:42 and following the link gives us the same result: 16:26:47 file /Users/claudia/Library/Emacs/site-lisp/slime/contrib/inferior-slime.el 16:26:47 /Users/claudia/Library/Emacs/site-lisp/slime/contrib/inferior-slime.el: Lisp/Scheme program text 16:27:25 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@221.237.117.207] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:28:30 where can I read something about this slime-setup thingy? will I have to go through the code itself? 16:28:40 ahaas pasted "my slime setup" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69964 16:29:10 claudia`: That's the code I use in my .emacs. It was generated by clbuild. 16:31:41 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 16:31:46 thans ahaas. so you do have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-tramp slime-asdf)) 16:31:57 and they work... 16:32:16 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:55 Yes. It's odd that emacs is complaining that (slime-setup) is a keyword argument. Maybe your .emacs is malformed. 16:34:35 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:35:02 humm... is (add-to-list 'load-path "my/path/") equivalent to (setq load-path (cons "my/path/" load-path)) ? it seems to be, as I have all my LaTeX stuff going for ages in my .emacs 16:35:19 and python modes and stuff 16:35:52 phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 16:36:32 Yeah, that's not the problem. I'd check my parens if I was you. 16:37:42 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 16:37:50 not complicated... 16:38:03 two opening, two closing 16:39:14 and the debbuger error does not seem to mean parenthesis 16:39:27 Sorry, I am misreading everything this morning. I should get coffee. 16:39:53 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:40:20 ("Keyword argument (slime-fancy) not one of (:autodoc:typeout-frame :highlight-edits)")) 16:40:20 Good evening. 16:43:48 claudia`: Are you using Aquamacs? 16:44:08 vasa [n=vasa@mm-77-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 16:44:22 no 16:44:43 claudia`: And this is with the most recent version of slime from CVS? 16:44:52 I'm using GNU Emacs 22.1.1 16:45:14 ahaas: yes slime from today 16:46:05 and the manual has one example whose syntax does not match your .emacs 16:46:08 If you hit M-. on slime-setup to see the definition, what is the arglist for that defun? 16:46:21 (slime-setup :autodoc t) 16:46:36 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]"] 16:46:51 not on mine 16:47:15 Maybe you are still loading the older version of slime you had. 16:47:36 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 16:47:43 -!- k_kkbd [n=kbd_@222.65.168.31] has quit [""] 16:47:46 I don't have any older versions in my computer 16:50:33 You did previously though, right? 16:51:19 I installed today through fink, but I completely removed it from my system 16:51:30 to install the cvs version 16:52:30 Hmmm. I need some more Japanese readers to review the Japanese translation of PCL on amazon.jp. 16:52:37 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 16:53:00 and, as I specify the path to a new slime instalation in my .emacs, I whould expect that it would prevail over whatever default installation there may be 16:53:00 claudia`: Well, it sounds like your still using an older version if it's expecting those particular keyword arguments that you listed in the error. The version I have takes (&optional contribs). 16:53:30 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 16:53:41 sellout [n=greg@216.133.14.34] has joined #lisp 16:53:59 I'd like that it whould be that simple. 16:54:09 Do you think http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/slime_002dautodoc_002dmode.html#slime_002dautodoc_002dmode 16:54:23 is old documentation? 16:54:40 claudia`: did you restart your emacs after replacing fink's slime with the one from cvs? 16:54:52 -!- bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 16:55:26 yes, I did 16:56:22 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:56:32 claudia`: Yes. 16:58:00 humm... ahaas: it came from here: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/ 16:58:29 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 16:58:52 claudia`: I think the source code is more reliable. 16:59:38 claudia`: If you do C-h f on slime-setup, what does it say the arguments are? 16:59:49 isn't this the official homepage for slime? How can one try to follow the documentation if it is not maintained?! bah.. sorry about the grunging... I hate to document but I do it a lot 16:59:54 welll 17:00:04 it is not clear either 17:00:30 elurin [n=user@85.104.132.54] has joined #lisp 17:00:41 claudia`: the documentation documents the last release, which is several years old. 17:00:49 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Client Quit] 17:05:05 pkhuong: OK. I'm a programmer too. If there is no time to release the code in a stable way for years in a row, with proper docs, maybe time is not the question. documentation phobia might have something to do with it. At least, there should be a warning saying that docs are from the twentieth century 17:05:35 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:05:35 it's not /that/ many years (: 17:06:07 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:06:14 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:06:49 I'm trying to use this thingy since 10 am and now my emacs counts 5pm... I'm in complete dispair... 17:07:40 hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:50 go to doc directory and build your docs 17:08:43 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-058-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:08:44 claudia`: What did c-h f say about slime-setup's function signature? 17:09:00 sysfault [i=exalted@c-68-45-34-224.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:23 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@c-68-45-34-224.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:10:05 (slime-setup &key autodoc typeout-frame highlight-edits) 17:10:05 17:10:05 Setup Emacs so that lisp-mode buffers always use SLIME. 17:10:26 claudia`: That is not the latest slime. You are still using the old version. 17:11:06 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:11:14 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 17:11:31 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 17:11:37 claudia`: unfortunately the state of documentation of many lisp packages seems to be highly threadbare; it doesn't appear to be a big priority, possibly due to the extent of overlap between "package users" and "package developers" 17:14:25 claudia`: there are few attempts to produce "stable releases" that are reasonably up-to-date, for the same reason, so usually you get told to just check out the latest $revision_control_system tree 17:14:44 as with many hobby software 17:14:50 locklace: what can I say? Does anybody use somebody else's packages? is it just in the python world that people share? 17:15:17 -!- rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:15:17 stassats: even in hobby sw you can find some nice documenting effort. 17:15:41 I don't see what any of this has to do with not being able to get slime working 17:15:51 is there anything like pydoc for cl? 17:16:01 it's one of those self-perpetuating patterns: more people don't use lisp because of the poor external interface infrastructure, and the infrastructure doesn't improve because there aren't enough people asking for it / helping do it 17:16:14 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["sundry douchetards"] 17:17:59 disumu [n=disumu@p57A26848.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:19 I like lisp. I used lispworks for lisp, but I generally use emacs for python, perl or java, so I thought I could just bring my lisp environment to my favorite editor 17:18:21 claudia`: yes, there is 17:18:36 claudia`: i haven't found anything comparable, which is slightly ironic because, lacking all other forms of documentation, it's one way docs could be produced with minimal extra effort 17:18:37 but this kind of documentation isn't sufficient 17:19:11 it can be, with a very small amount of effort... 17:20:44 there are several doc tools that all do different kinds of things, but no de facto standard like pydoc is for python 17:21:20 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:21:37 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 17:21:38 claudia`: so, no one stops you to write documentation 17:21:41 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:43 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Client Quit] 17:23:01 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:23:27 stassats: no. And I do write it. For my programs 17:23:43 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 17:25:25 claudia`: fwiw, i didn't have any problems with slime after getting the cvs tree, and it does work well 17:27:00 yeah... what is your system? 17:27:29 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 17:27:52 lots, unix-based 17:28:46 i just have (require 'slime) and (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in .emacs 17:29:15 and am using sbcl 17:30:15 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 17:30:43 I'm on my ppc powerbook G4 17:31:35 trying a lot not to break my tiger mac osx with custom random installs... 17:32:45 nothing wrong with custom lisp-related installs, and that's the only way you'll get things working right; just make a /usr/local/lisp or whatever and start manually installing things under it ;) 17:32:54 you know, I really like the way an install works in mac osx. you have everything encapsulated in one standalone package that must provide for itself 17:33:51 and that you can erase leaving no other trace or garbage hangin' around 17:34:21 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 17:34:48 claudia`: have you looked at clbuild? 17:34:56 you can do that with all your lisp packages too (and just about anything else you build yourself), just a matter of using the right directory tree structure 17:35:38 Fade: nooooo 17:36:06 locklace: ? 17:36:42 -!- sellout [n=greg@216.133.14.34] has quit [] 17:37:38 -!- matley [n=matley@91.80.198.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:49 locklace: I don't think so... people in the linux world (and I used to be one of those) are always thinking about some filesystem conventions that are not necessarily to be respected. 17:38:04 matley [n=matley@91.80.198.31] has joined #lisp 17:38:12 Fade: i think it's the wrong thing to recommend to people who just want to use cl packages 17:38:35 why? it puts the whole lisp image and dependencies in one discreet directory 17:38:58 which is effectively what claudia` was talking about wrt OS X app bundles. 17:40:20 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:41:09 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 17:42:51 it also uses $revision_control_system trees for everything it does, which is an absurd "release" model unless you are a developer hacking on those packages, and requires that you have 98345798135079823 different revision control systems installed 17:43:29 the overhead is largely meaningless, especially given the lisp culture to read out of revision control for everything anyhow. 17:43:40 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-058-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:44 you report a bug and the first question is usually "are you running CVS?" 17:44:12 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:37 just because that's the status quo doesn't mean it isn't silly ;) 17:45:00 mch [n=bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:27 well, given as how the status quo defines how the community works, it seems to me that recommending the simplest means of working inside that community is a plus. :) 17:45:37 -!- uchitoru [n=user@85.139.117.150] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:45:52 simlinking asd files all over the acre isn't any fun either. 17:45:52 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:47:22 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:37 well simplicity here is in the eye of the beholder, it's not "simple" to me to maintain and support a bunch of rcs's that are only needed to support clbuild, nor do i usually want an rcs tree of something if there is an asdf-installable version of it that works fine, nor do i want clbuild to manage my compiler installation 17:48:42 fwiw i was able to get an excellent win32 GUI application with sbcl and lambda-gtk. if anybody wants to go that route i suggest they code on Linux, because a multithreaded lisp wont crash if your gui crashes (assuming you fire up independent threads for your app) 17:48:45 sorry, people, but I'd prefer to have a small set of really useful uptodate documentatation and a good steady flow of releases a la python way (surprisingly similar to mac os x packages) with distutils standard thingy to distribute code 17:48:52 portability is just as good as LTK 17:49:18 sorry to interrupt the discussion, thought it would be idle this hour :-P 17:49:37 fusss ltk looks native on windows and osx 17:49:42 claudia`: clbuild is as close as we've got to distutils. 17:49:43 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:49:43 gtk doesnt 17:50:00 xristos: GTK looks native, all you have to do is call (gtk:parse-rc "theme/win32.gtkrc") 17:50:14 i can give you my win32 theme, which is just the standard 17:50:46 you can change your app appearance at runtime, win32, gnome, os x, mozilla and emacs are available :-) 17:51:19 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:51:39 Fade: is it true that clbuild needs to manage your compilers? 17:51:45 you know any urls with screenshots 17:51:46 call me when ltk has accessability, drag and drop, cut and paste, persistance app configuration, and full screen 17:51:59 because i doubt gtk is using native widgets 17:52:02 claudia`: no 17:52:17 if you don't build a lisp in your clbuild directory, it uses the system compiler 17:52:24 on /usr/local or /usr or whatever. 17:52:27 -!- mch [n=bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 17:52:29 xristos: i can whip out same demos for all to see. something like a "gui shootout", since i have been testing various lisp gui for weeks now 17:52:45 that would be cool 17:52:51 bitsurge [n=bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:05 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:53:13 xristos: also, don't forget ltk uses pipe/socket interface. the whole thing feels decoupled and clunky :-S 17:53:24 egn [n=egn@c-76-25-206-124.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:57 Fade: ohh god.. I have my sbcl and cmucl in /Applications 17:54:00 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:54:07 *Fade* scratches his head 17:54:30 on a mac? 17:54:42 lispworks has everything encapsulated on my mac 17:54:53 clean and simple 17:55:17 fusss what about other dependencies 17:55:30 do it require pango,atk,glib,cairo,gettext etc etc 17:55:41 ah. i don't have any experience with lispworks. 17:55:57 i use the sbcl/slime/emacs toolchain. 17:56:16 Fade: yeah... on a mac. Lispworks comes in a bundle app. and it works... 17:56:39 xach seems to think lispworks is a good setup. 17:56:42 # # # # # 17:57:19 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:57:21 although it was my understanding that their licensing prevented application distribution unless you paid for each binary you shipped. 17:57:35 Fade: that's about ACL 17:57:36 python works quite nicely, I could make an egg install and plist the package with macosx 17:57:40 Fade: false! you pay for it once 17:57:55 stassats: and franz has other licensing options 17:58:01 perhaps i'm mistaking lispworks for franz 17:58:23 anyway, it's not free 17:58:36 and you have a free ware license that stops you from using it for more than 7 hours a day 17:58:46 it's not free, indeed 17:58:55 as in freedom, I mean 17:59:08 so, I planned a switch for this weekend 17:59:11 ... 17:59:23 if you're willing to charge for your software, be willing to pay for your tools :-) 17:59:25 claudia`: Getting a working setup with sbcl involves installing sbcl itself, installing emacs, fetching slime from cvs, editing your ~/.emacs to configure slime. 18:00:16 tcr: I'm on ERC... I have emacs for ages now 18:00:18 conversely, you could just use darcs to get clbuild and then use that to manage the rest. 18:00:21 claudia`: I agree it's somewhat cumbersome comparing to lispworks, but it's not that cumbersome. 18:00:33 claudia`: Then it should not be a problem for you, and cost you perhaps 10minutes. 18:00:42 hahaha 18:01:03 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.5] has joined #lisp 18:01:13 sorry tcr... I'm here since morning 18:01:16 if you have xcode 4.1, you might have trouble compiling sbcl, but I have a patch against the current stuff. 18:01:23 more hacking, less whinnage! 18:01:28 minion: chant 18:01:32 claudia`: What's the problem you're facing? 18:01:49 xcode 4.1? when did they go to 4.1?? 18:01:50 *fusss* feels neglected by the resident intelligent automaton 18:01:53 or 4.0 for that matter 18:02:12 Fade: I have made a very decent build for sbcl 18:02:45 and I've pushed the slime pack from their (oh god..) cvs trunk 18:02:57 slyrus_: there was an xcode update a couple of months ago that breaks sbcl's build on powerpc 18:03:29 on OSX at any rate. the patch to fix it is trivial, though. 18:03:42 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-130-125.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:43 from cvs, of corse, after I tried to use the latest official release 18:03:54 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 18:04:24 claudia`: Slime does not currently have any release management. 18:04:38 dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:48 -!- dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:04:56 well... they have some extremely outdated documentation in the webpage 18:05:10 Yes, it's lamentable. 18:05:48 documentation in doc/ is more recent 18:05:49 nevermind...the RTFM phrase never passes by in this community 18:06:24 It's RTFPCLB around here, sometimes also RTFHS. 18:06:26 another nice thing about clbuild is that when you use it to build slime, you can just do 'clbuild slime-configuration' and it'll emit a functional wedge of elisp to put in your .emacs file 18:06:35 claudia`: Are you in denial that you are still running the older version of slime? 18:07:19 Fade: 3.1 maybe? 18:08:17 ahaas: I ran find / -name site-lisp and nothing was found 18:08:25 pkhuong: yah, sorry, I was confusing gcc version numbers with xcode version numbers in memory. 18:08:52 ahaas: I mean I just found the relevant site.lisp 18:09:00 site-lisp, sorry 18:09:05 But when you ran describe-function on slime-setup it gave you the outdated description, correct? 18:09:13 and even at that, incorrectly. xcode 3.1 ships gcc 4.2.1 18:09:26 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:43 I bytecoded the new slime and it works! 18:09:50 hurray!!!! 18:10:22 if you compile your .emacs, then it'll ignore the .emacs file entirely. 18:10:29 preferring the elc 18:10:39 I don't think that's a wise thing to do. Better remove any sprinkled .elc files in your slime source checkout. 18:10:41 yet another fundamental problem of lisp solved with proper emacs configuration ;-) 18:10:57 -!- tst____ [n=Tim@p4FD2DFA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:11:13 I'll look for the older bytecodes... 18:11:37 but this is completely dumb. Everything should be bundled together... 18:12:07 claudia`: Why? Slime is its own project. 18:12:33 you was already told about clbuild 18:12:37 a find / -name "*.elc" is definitely not the way to go for an unistaller 18:13:09 I don't know what you did that it compiled slime.el. 18:14:17 tcr: I just ran the older version, until I was warned by people here to get the cvs version. It is quite natural that bytecode whould be generated... 18:14:46 would (my spelling is terrible today, sorry folks) 18:14:51 claudia`: why not just look in the directories in your load-path, as reported by emacs? 18:15:12 claudia`: No, it's not, in Slime's case. 18:15:13 -!- ejs [n=eugen@126-242-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:15:35 locklace: How do you do that? 18:15:35 maybe it's due to fink? 18:15:43 or how it's called 18:15:49 stassats: probably 18:16:05 claudia`: I agree that the current look of the Lisp's open source world needs some improvement. From what I understand, it's on the TODO of some people around here. 18:16:06 so blame it 18:16:11 find reported and files were deleted... finally 18:16:30 claudia`: in emacs, C-h v RET load-path RET 18:17:12 bert2 [n=po@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:17:17 claudia`: Now that you got Slime rocking, do you know about the book Practical Common Lisp? It's a nice introduction to CL. 18:17:29 er.. C-h v load-path RET 18:18:00 -!- kidd [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 18:18:05 kidd [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:29 stassats: I'm not blaming anyone... just trying to make my way through this mess... 18:20:01 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:01 though, it seems like whining 18:20:03 tcr: thanks for the good advice. I have that book for ages. I've been working with lisp for some years now, but developing standalone things over a silly thingy named Cadence... 18:20:36 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:45 Why silly? I know very intelligent people working for them. 18:21:14 In fact, I considered doing an internship in their branch here in Munich. 18:21:21 stassats: I came here for advice. For the advice you gave me, I thank you. But you cannot stop me from expressing a polite and fundamented opinion. 18:22:11 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:34 tcr: I have friends at cadence. that does not mean their SKILL dialect is nice. they have lots of constraints due to the kind of business they are in 18:23:59 Fair enough. Regarding your opinion, it's not necessarily that fundamented. It was basically fink that screwed it up for you, and fink is at most at the edge of the Lisp world. 18:24:00 tcr: go ahead for your internship. I've heard it is a good company to work on. Although their bad moment now... 18:24:29 oh... god... here we go again... 18:24:37 Aszarsha [n=Miranda@69.171.136.113] has joined #lisp 18:24:54 claudia`: are you using ports on your mac? 18:25:50 claudia`: You cannot stop me from expressing a polite and fundamented opinion. 18:26:06 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:26:28 even if I didn't use fink or ports, btw, it would take me some hours to install things as eggs. if you ever used python you'd know there is a package called distutils that can provide this and much more in seconds 18:26:33 i don't think fundamented is a word... 18:26:58 claudia`: I'm well aware of how python sets things up. 18:27:12 claudia`: Hence people referred to clbuild. 18:27:23 AND I'd have a release for each package... 18:27:24 which is why I've been talking about clbuild. 18:27:38 so is clbuild the new asdf-install? 18:27:43 claudia`: You would've had it setup in minutes if it didn't take you 3 hours to actually load the new slime in emacs. 18:27:55 tic: :( 18:28:06 locklace, ? 18:28:17 (I meant in spirit) 18:28:21 quick installation is not Lisp's strongest point. come back when you want power and flexibility :-) 18:28:23 locklace: If claudia` happens to be German, too, it's just a false friend. The correct work would be "sound", I guess. 18:28:31 s/work/word/ 18:28:39 tic -- i dunno if it's the new asdf-install, but for the projects which it knows about, it's definitely better than asdf-install 18:29:02 tcr: ah, or "well-founded", that makes sense 18:29:20 Fade, could perhaps new projects be added in a fashion similar to asdf-install, or is it maybe too tedious w/ the various SCMs used for projects? 18:29:49 ok Fade, that whould be a solution before I got some nice standalone packages for cmucl and sbcl... 18:30:22 after all that work... bah... I need a good coffee... 18:30:34 tic -- i haven't added any projects to clbuild, but my understanding is that it's quite straight forward. 18:30:45 then, i'll get back to my emacs-lisp experience. 18:30:50 thank you all 18:30:55 Fade, I see. Was just curious. 18:30:56 for your help 18:32:16 and for your good humour... 18:32:19 bye. 18:32:25 ciao 18:32:29 tic: it does not solve the same problem as a proper package management system 18:32:41 -!- claudia` [n=user@bl9-179-138.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["coffee"] 18:32:44 locklace, note the difference between ASDF and ASDF-INSTALL. 18:32:58 i'm aware 18:33:00 locklace, surely there is some similarity between clbuild and asdf-install? 18:33:27 No not at all 18:33:37 generally, there is no good lisp packaging system, but clbuild seems to be the best 18:33:47 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.99.204] has joined #lisp 18:33:49 Hm. clbuild creates a new image for you, right? 18:33:57 it can 18:34:01 optionally, I think. 18:34:10 *tic* should read up on clbuild on the official page instead.. 18:34:33 stassats clbuild is not a packaging system 18:34:52 and i would say far from the 'best' whatever that means 18:35:24 xristos, how many alternatives are there? 18:35:32 xristos: is there any better 'substitute suitable word' system? 18:35:44 asdf-install works better for me 18:35:55 meaning i've had less problems with it 18:36:14 i've had problems with both, but less with clbuild. 18:36:14 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:36:55 i think it depends hugely on what packages you're using 18:37:31 the biggest issue with clbuild for me is that it burries releases and encourages get everything from cvs mentality 18:37:48 i want releases 18:37:51 a bunch of updates to clbuild just recently let it build the entire manifest --main-packages on my system without fault, which is a first. fwiw. 18:38:27 xristos: no kidding 18:38:32 xristos: I disagree. I think there should just be branches. 1.x, 2.x and so on. Backwards incompatible changes should result in a new branch. 18:38:43 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.5] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:58 can asdf-install update things? 18:39:01 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9937c445396d0ae6] has joined #lisp 18:39:37 if you tell it to 18:40:09 releases are good, if they are 18:43:59 -!- kidd [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 18:46:41 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 18:47:52 I've got a macro foo that takes a variable number of arguments and I also have a list whose elements I would like to use as the arguments to the foo macro, the call to the macro is from inside a function so I think I can's use the @ operator. can someone please help? 18:48:31 apply? 18:48:43 tic: to the macro? 18:49:08 inetic: What is the macro in question? 18:49:08 tic, stassats, yes, the problem is that foo is a macro 18:49:14 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:22 stassats, d'oh. 18:49:42 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:49:49 tcr: it's a macro I made, nothing standard 18:50:28 <_deepfire> I wonder what's Xach brewing wrt. code distribution.. 18:51:16 inetic: your description isn't sufficient, it'd better to paste your macro and it's usage 18:51:24 its, even 18:51:49 stassats, I'll try, thanks 18:52:17 inetic: Perhaps it should not be a macro in the first place? 18:52:23 inetic: maybe it should be a function? 18:52:27 heh. 18:52:50 there's a huge difference between inlined functions and macros 18:53:08 (although probably not immediately apparent) 18:53:15 oh, sorry, my bad, the macro is the destructuring-bind and the list contains the body to it 18:54:14 literal list? 18:54:20 inetic: Sounds confused. Paste an example. 18:54:41 ok 18:57:19 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:05 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 18:59:31 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 19:02:19 inetic pasted "destructure list into elements and pass them to a macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69970 19:02:30 josemanuel [n=josemanu@210.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:02:46 inetic: macros can't deal with things that aren't known at its macroexpansion time 19:03:16 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:02 stassats, I don't think thats the problem cause mbody will be found after the macroexpansion (in the let expression) 19:04:10 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-194.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:34 no, mbody will be defined only at runtime 19:06:46 which is good isn't it? (by "after macroexpansion" I meant at runtime, sorry, don't know the terms yet) 19:07:03 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:08:22 i haven't noticed "after", but nevertheless, macros will not work that way 19:09:46 inetic: you probably have something define-js-macro, right? 19:09:59 specbot: where is minion! 19:10:02 tcr, yes 19:11:08 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 19:11:08 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 19:11:19 inetic: Instead of putting stuff into a js-macro object, it should create a closure which takes the the macro arguments, parses them appopriately, and then executes its body forms. 19:12:29 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-60-230.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:12:48 eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:12:52 inetic: Basically it should expand to `(%set-macro ',name #'(lambda (whole-form) ,(generate-argument-parsing-bits ',args ',body))) 19:13:29 ok not exactly that because it doesn't use WHOLE-FORM, but I hope you get the idea 19:13:56 Grr. 19:14:00 I think I kind of do :-) 19:14:26 I'm kind of slow, need to stare at it for a while :-) 19:15:26 what is the %set-macro thingy? something I should define? 19:15:40 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:47 inetic: the setter analagon to your find-macro 19:17:08 #'(lambda (whole42) (destructuring-bind ,margs (cdr whole42) ,@mbody)) may already be what you want. I haven't thought this through, though. 19:17:27 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:06 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:10 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-77-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 19:18:52 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:54 ah, that looks quite good, I didn't know I can use commas and @ inside #'(...), I'm going to check it out, many thanks 19:19:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:56 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:19:56 inetic: You cannot, I meant that to be used in the backquotes %set-macro expression 19:19:59 backquoted 19:20:07 ejs [n=eugen@94.178.17.182] has joined #lisp 19:20:09 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:15 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:50 chandler: I verified that the patches do not introduce any new ansi-tests regression. I'll send the patches to the mailing list shortly. 19:21:24 tcr: Thanks! When touching something big and complex like the reader, I think the ansi-tests are a good regression to run. 19:21:31 I assume there aren't any SBCL test regressions either. 19:21:33 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F58B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:21:37 tcr, ah, yes, I think I know what to do now, thanks! 19:22:15 Good evening (once again). 19:22:30 Hello beach. 19:22:45 chandler: Yeah they found a typo I did in a later changeset. 19:24:37 Okay, http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/port-log.txt updated. I'm not sure if I'm going to do much more on this today. 19:26:31 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska176142.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:27:38 holycow [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:54 karayan [n=saura@59.92.49.133] has joined #lisp 19:29:36 kidd [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:16 nyef: What are you going to do instead? 19:33:02 -!- karayan [n=saura@59.92.49.133] has quit [Client Quit] 19:33:43 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:33:43 There are a couple of around-the-house things I could do, like vacuuming, I'll probably do some reading, stuff like that. 19:34:04 -!- m4thrick_ [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:05 sounds like a plan 19:34:46 Indeed. 19:35:29 I'm really not sure about what I've got lined up for load/store addressing, but it's bound to be better than the x86oid make-ea junk. 19:36:21 freerfoid [n=user@atlaswireless.nomads.utk.edu] has joined #lisp 19:37:55 -!- holycow [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:40:19 -!- m00t [n=chatzill@78.40.81.1] has quit [Client Quit] 19:42:28 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:42:42 -!- freerfoid [n=user@atlaswireless.nomads.utk.edu] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:42:47 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:48:04 funcorid [n=user@atlaswireless.nomads.utk.edu] has joined #lisp 19:48:26 -!- funcorid [n=user@atlaswireless.nomads.utk.edu] has left #lisp 19:48:39 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:49:32 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 19:49:46 gilberth [n=gilbert@c149234.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:16 -!- kidd [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 19:51:54 kidd [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:33 -!- Ifur [n=osm086@rasmus.uib.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:55:31 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279403734.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:01:08 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:25 sctb` [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:30 mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:03:45 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:04:50 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska176142.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:05:09 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska176142.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:42 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska176142.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:05:55 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 20:10:18 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-058-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:10:22 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:23 Final_Caja_Negra [n=mp3@189.129.250.250] has joined #lisp 20:10:26 -!- Final_Caja_Negra [n=mp3@189.129.250.250] has left #lisp 20:10:46 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 20:11:17 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-058-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:21 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:29 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94.178.17.182] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:15:51 -!- elurin [n=user@85.104.132.54] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:49 common-lisp.net people here? 20:18:18 chandler: Ok, the mail got through to sbcl-devel. Thanks in advance for your efforts! 20:18:44 ohloh is still having problems reading the abcl repository to create its history. 20:26:12 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:26:29 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-058-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:55 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:30:47 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:31:07 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Gone"] 20:31:40 kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:12 -!- sctb` [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:57 pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:33:21 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279403734.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:35:22 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:38:04 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@92.41.233.155.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:39:23 ehu: What VCS does it use? 20:39:39 svn 20:39:44 Oh, hm. 20:39:54 I added lisppaste, and it's working fine. 20:40:18 how big is lisppaste? 20:40:25 Not that large. And it's CVS. 20:40:35 I mean, I added usocket and it had problems too. 20:40:45 So, almost completely irrelevant for me to bring that up :-) 20:40:46 both armedbear and usocket are in svn 20:41:01 ehu: AFAIK, they're converting to either git or hg in the background 20:41:27 but that may have changed in the 1.5 years I haven't used ohloh (: 20:41:43 antifuchs: could that be the problem? They claim to be getting an extreme numbers of "connection refused" errors. 20:41:48 antifuchs: I'm behind the curve again, I see. 20:42:22 ehu: well, then the problem is that the connection gets refused ((: 20:42:25 People who still use ohloh: make me feel good, click on http://www.ohloh.net/stack_entries/new?project_id=lisppaste&ref=WidgetProjectUsers ! 20:42:27 what could be in the c-l.net config that causes this? 20:42:30 :-) 20:42:43 chandler: I did. 20:42:52 -!- kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:42:55 (as soon as I saw the ohloh icon on lisppaste) 20:42:56 ehu: thanks :-) 20:44:56 -!- bitsurge [n=bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [] 20:45:21 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska176142.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:26 rme [n=rme@pool-70-106-128-43.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:20 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska176142.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:46:27 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 20:46:39 wow, they got a new look 20:47:23 Tordek [n=tordek@host67.190-227-44.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:48:42 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:48:57 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska176142.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:49:04 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska176142.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:50:05 I'm sad that ohloh's svn importer doesn't follow directory moves. It loses about 4 years of Clozure CL history. 20:50:21 Oh I'm back. 20:51:27 I just found myself calling an external program and hardcoding paths in the argument line (eg. "data=/home/marcus/wd/hh/chart/chart.data") . Is there some recommended way to not have to do this ugliness? 20:51:55 Though I am well aware of the fact that everyone has the same name, and puts code in the same place. 20:51:59 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:52:48 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:54:17 rme: you could run your own importer to some VCS that does, and give it that (: 20:54:29 rme: not exactly ideal, of course 20:54:39 antifuchs: too much work for the sake of vanity 20:54:44 yeah 20:55:12 schme_: If you know it'll be in the home directory, use the contents of the HOME environment variable when building your path. 20:55:46 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:00 cbrannon: I have no idea where it'll be if someone else decides to use it. 20:56:05 schme: (namestring (user-homedir-pathname));? 20:56:45 you could use (format nil "~A" (namestring the-pathname-to-the-thing)) and so on 20:56:45 I guess it's setting some variable that's the idea then :) 20:57:25 hoh yes. The issue is more that where the thing might be could vary for other people with lesser names, etc. 20:57:52 that means they should set a variable of sorts 20:58:05 Right. 20:58:12 It will have to do then :) 20:58:14 if they have to customize the lisp code to run your program, having them as defparameters is an option 20:58:32 Yup. I just find it nasty :) 20:58:33 I often load ~/.program-name.lisp in the main entry points 20:58:41 Hmmm. 20:58:48 (with *package* set) 20:58:54 Hah :D 20:58:59 alternatively, environment vars 20:59:12 but I think ~/.program-name.lisp is a nice way to customize stuff 20:59:26 Ya seems much nicer than environment vars anyway. 20:59:50 (let ((*package* (find-package :yours))) (load (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :name ".your-program" :type "lisp") (user-homedir-pathname)))) 20:59:54 is, I think, it (: 21:00:27 Bien. 21:01:14 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:22 Nathan__ [n=Nathan@cpe-76-171-200-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:25 Well time to make the gfx appear in the pane. woho. 21:01:48 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@CPE0016b6145127-CM001a6682dc74.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:12 -!- Nathan__ is now known as proprietarystink 21:02:14 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@CPE0016b6145127-CM001a6682dc74.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:18 In terms of running speed only, which would be preferrable in crunching information from web log files, perl, python or lisp, or something else? 21:04:54 IO-heavy tasks aren't typically the area where lisp's light shines most brightly 21:05:33 especially if you rely on character stream IO... if you treat them as binary files, you may get similar running speeds from the free lisps 21:05:46 (but try Scieneer CL, they are said to have fast streams) 21:06:32 interesting results I'm getting from asking that same question in #lisp, #python and #perl 21:07:08 schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:07:17 heh. of course, the standard disclaimers for a multi-implementation language apply; I haven't done IO benchmarks for all of the available implementations, and some are faster at this than others (: 21:07:21 two people in #perl have responded, both saying lisp would be the fastest 21:07:44 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.5] has joined #lisp 21:07:48 heh 21:07:51 2 people in #python have responded, 1 saying python with psyco and 1 saying C 21:08:06 man, no one likes IO :) 21:08:11 well, what is the size of these log files, and how much processing will you do to them? 21:08:18 and 1 person in #lisp responded saying not lisp 21:08:23 We don't deal well with the outside world, I guess. 21:08:26 antifuchs: SCL cheats a little bit in that it deals only with octet arrays 21:08:37 fe[nl]ix: how else would it be fast (-: 21:08:47 :D 21:09:12 proprietarystink: What you should do is try doing it in 10 or so different languages and write a blog entry about it. 21:09:18 proprietarystink: run time will depend on what you're going to do with them; if the time spent reading the logs and writing the output is under 10%, lisp may well win (: 21:10:07 proprietarystink: If you are going to do it in C, you might as well do it in Lisp (using SBCL) and use SB-UNIX:UNIX-READ. 21:10:51 or just mmap them (: 21:11:21 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:39 besiria`` [n=user@ppp083212084218.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 21:11:57 Or that! 21:12:02 I imagine, as long what ever you use to the I/O is faster than your disk or network or whereever the data is comming from, you're fine. 21:12:21 Well it would depend how much crunching you're doing vs. how much munching and chewing 21:12:48 If you are only doing simple stats and reports, indeed I/O will dominate. 21:13:13 Yes, but in this case, as long as you're faster than your disk, it doesn't matter. 21:13:22 On the other hand, if you are doing AI inferences, you could be more CPU bound, and then using Lisp could give you an edge. 21:14:19 gilberth: a factor of 2 can be a big time difference on terabytes of log files (: 21:15:14 darren` [n=user@c-24-7-88-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:26 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:15:32 antifuchs: yes, a load of 0.02 instead of 0.01. ;) 21:15:41 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:17:05 gilberth: see http://sbcl.boinkor.net/bench/#SLURP-LINES - SBCL takes just under a second to read in all lines of /usr/dict/words (collecting them in a list, granted... but that's not what I count as fast) 21:17:15 (that's 98kLines) 21:17:31 initially the goal is to make a 'better' awstats, which I have written, which also uses a free/oss flash graphing web display. the primary steps are parse the log files, achiving each unique entry, then basically going through the unique entries and parsing them out to get raw data. Finally, converting the data into human-interest numbers, all calculations at this point. The web part will be done with php probably, and wil just 21:17:31 pull from the mysql db / open text files db filesystem structure =] 21:18:06 proprietarystink: a better awstats? I think you are my hero (: 21:18:33 Wow. 21:18:36 You're all insane :S 21:18:43 schme: Hm? 21:18:51 oh, no, it doesn't collect the lines at all 21:19:06 antifuchs: Have you thought about adding Clozure CL to the boinkmarks? 21:19:13 antifuchs: Is slurp-lines a naive (loop for x = (read-line input nil nil) while x do something)? 21:19:19 gilberth: yes 21:19:19 I am not attached to any language and I'm only interested in which language will be the speed winner in this one case 21:19:21 No I'm just impressed by the quality of the replies in here to a question like "hey what language should I use!?!" 21:19:44 gilberth: with default external format 21:19:46 schme, I'm giving a specific rigid standard of judgement 21:19:57 antifuchs: Well given that a line in /usr/dict/words is very short -- yes, I image all the consing will dominate. 21:20:01 proprietarystink: That's excellent. 21:20:06 schme: I think proprietarystink is asking a slightly more specific question, actually. Usually those vague questions get answers like "use whatever you like" :-) 21:20:15 only the speed in this one project matter for this question and I have no bias towards or against any 21:20:29 I g2g bbl I will read the replies 21:21:04 chandler: True true. It's still funny how it goes : #perl says lisp, #lisp says : well ..... 21:21:08 proprietarystink: The one relatively unique thing about doing it in Common Lisp is the ability to make a displaced string that is a subsequence of a larger string, without consing a copy. 21:21:09 heh. 21:21:24 -!- Wizard_ [n=wizard@94.50.160.46] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:34 Anyway am I to understand things correctly here when I believe one can abuse closure to have it render html in some random pane I have lying around on my screen? 21:21:39 proprietarystink: Of course you can pass around a reference to the big string and bounds in other languages, but it's a lot clunkier. 21:22:14 schme: if by "pane" you mean McCLIM pane, then I don't know why that'd be an abuse 21:22:28 chandler: Yes yes. It is. 21:22:40 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:02 -!- darren` [n=user@c-24-7-88-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:23:09 schme: What are you trying to "abuse" Closure for? 21:23:19 Well that's great. 21:23:20 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:58 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:11 Well I have this pane here that I, at the moment, want to display two jpegs in. Someone hinted to me yesterday that one could very well use closure to do the layoutting real sweet. 21:24:34 chandler: I have thought about it... but it's my policy to not try to auto-build lisps which don't come with a makefile or a build script (: 21:24:35 schme: Also, since today appears to be gilberth's semiannual pilgrimage to #lisp, you have picked the right time to ask closure questions! 21:24:47 (I've been working on ECL) (-: 21:24:55 antifuchs: Heh. I thought you were just running releases of CMUCL, though. 21:24:56 Aha! 21:24:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:25:03 chandler: irregularly 21:25:12 Ah. 21:25:14 Too bad I haven't got any questions then :) 21:25:16 but since that seems to be the cmucl release schedule, that worked out nicely ((: 21:25:39 CMUCL has a release schedule? :-) 21:25:47 -!- besiria` [n=user@ppp083212086002.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:25:49 exactly ((: 21:26:08 if it doesn't come with a schedule, I might just get around to benchmarking it from time to time (: 21:26:18 schme: When you have some code to "abuse" Closure, I'd really like to see it. 21:26:31 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:26:55 antifuchs: Maybe somebody should make OpenMCL cleanly bootstrap from any ANSI CL... 21:26:59 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 21:27:07 s/OpenMCL/Clozure CL/ 21:27:22 I was thinking about mkaing a little "tutorial" pane that contained closure-rendered HTML for beirc, but didn't get very far (and I didn't try hard) 21:27:29 ... You know someone's going to want to make "OpenClozure CL", right? 21:27:30 Maybe I'd remember to call it Clozure if the script were called ccl64 instead of openmcl64 21:27:31 chandler: nice idea (: 21:27:45 hee hee 21:27:49 gilberth: It's for displaying graphs mostly. Graphs with text here and there. It's for my nutrition/workout analysis/planner thing. Right now I have it creating piecharts of protein/carbs/fiber/fat in fooditems. Which are supposed to be displayed in a seperate chart-pane, of course. But if one could actually use closure to do the rendering I imagine I could make it look a lot better. :) 21:28:08 gilberth: 'course I have no idea what I'm talking about. My experience with closure is 5 minutes of browsing the web with it ;) 21:28:14 antifuchs: Like to use Closure as a kind of CLIM online help browser? 21:28:22 gilberth: for a tutorial, yes 21:28:26 scheme: So you got it compiled and running -- great. 21:28:53 but then there were command loops, and I didn't know how to integrate any of it at all... 21:29:18 ...and I already knew how to use beirc, so didn't bother to look at that for very long (: 21:29:28 gilberth: Indeed! and well.. I went back to firefox as my daily webbrowser, to be honest :) But now that I see the real use potential of it, it's just supah sweet :) 21:29:44 I figure, Closure would need a simple WITH-HTML-OUTPUT interface. 21:29:57 that would be excellent 21:30:42 I still say the best WITH-* macro name ever is WITH-MALICE-AFORETHOUGHT, but I haven't figured out what such a macro would -do-... 21:30:55 otoh it still needs serious work. and: don't look at me to do it. 21:31:05 get a student from denmark to integrate the good parts of it into one clim protocol or another <-; 21:31:06 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-058-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:26 nyef: if you wrap with-malice-aforethought around a call to save-lisp-and-die, does that become a murder/suicide? 21:32:32 why denmark? 21:32:46 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 21:33:01 Athas is a Dane, isn't he (: 21:33:11 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 21:33:16 oh, right. 21:35:03 Actually what I am wondering with closure is where on earth I start digging around to learn how to use it for something :) 21:35:12 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:35:32 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:35:34 antifuchs: I don't know... how would a malicious self-sacrifice to preserve lisp work? 21:36:01 nyef: Well, it could be Paul Graham doing it. 21:36:10 *nyef* shudders. 21:36:29 right now, I understand he's everything but sacrificing himself (: 21:37:37 scheme: I'd start with the existing GUI. There is com-visit URL to visit an url. It calls a function called FOO (sic!), which sets up all the context the renderer needs. 21:37:44 So, while I'm thinking about it, does anyone have an opinion about the load/store addressing mode stuff I've been trying to figure out? 21:38:09 -!- jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:38:13 gilberth: Ah cools. That is where I'll look then. 21:38:34 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:56 schme: the r2:document instance is the important thing. 21:39:58 ok. noted. 21:40:05 I guess the rest of my weekend is saved :) 21:40:11 schme: The :pt slot this the "parse tree" an object obeying to the element protocol as layout in src/protocols/element.lisp 21:40:33 cxml nodes as well as the legacy PT nodes implement this protocol. 21:41:18 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:27 Hoh.. Ok. You've lost me there. Thanks :) 21:41:34 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-12-36.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 21:42:05 schme: I figured you wanted to construct an document on the fly instead of writing and then reading an HTML file. 21:42:20 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:42:43 gilberth: When I have something usable whipped up I'll let you know though :) 21:42:49 Absolutely! 21:43:24 This is why lisp wins as a language. Lispers are totally inspiring :) 21:43:44 gilberth: Thanks for the help there. I'm off to code browsing :) 21:44:09 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska176142.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:59 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@CPE0016b6145127-CM001a6682dc74.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:17 *tic* whips some cream up -- highly usable 21:52:45 gilberth: Oh *that* r2:document instance. I see :) 21:53:15 schme: Digging the code right now? 21:53:34 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:03 gilberth: They don't call me the master of code browsing for nothing :) 21:54:48 This FOO function shouldn't be too complicated to adapt. 21:54:54 schme: Oh that's good. It's horrible code. 21:55:24 Not as horrible as it will be when I'm done with it ;) 21:55:35 I doubt it. 21:56:20 Well, there are a lot of protocols within Closure, yet they are not documented in any way. 21:56:24 Sounds like a challenge right there :) 21:56:56 I see. 21:56:59 -!- besiria`` [n=user@ppp083212084218.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [No route to host] 21:57:27 I'll put a ** TODO Document Closure protocols in my projects list. 21:58:00 schme: At the top or at the bottom of the list of yours? ;) 21:58:14 Someday/Maybe 21:58:19 I see. 21:59:07 It's right in between Ride the bike to Spain, and Buy an Ipod 21:59:40 schme: How far is it from your current position to Spain? 21:59:48 haha 22:00:08 also, how desirable is an ipod to you (: 22:00:17 :) 22:00:23 gilberth: Not so far. Southern Sweden. 22:00:30 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 22:00:46 schme: So there is water inbetween, how would you ride that? 22:01:03 Well.. quite desirable. I like audiobooks. For some reason a lot of 'em are in ogg speex and odd formats my zen does not handle. But the ipod I can run linux on so that will work. 22:01:13 pedal boat! 22:01:14 schme: Or would you take the route all around the Baltic Sea? 22:01:23 gilberth: Well I'll take the train over to denmark of course. We're not allowed to ride bikes across the bridge. 22:01:27 (which is insane) 22:01:40 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 22:01:40 Nah. Train to denmark :) 22:01:58 schme: Will you pass Hamburg? 22:02:27 schme: the oresund bridge ? 22:02:29 I honestly have no idea. We haven't exactly planned the route yet, and the wife unit is not 100% convinced about the whole thing yet. 22:02:33 fe[nl]ix: Ya. 22:02:41 schme: Is the ipod more or less important to you than the ride? 22:02:47 fe[nl]ix: Can you believe it! They make a bridge over there and they don't let people ride across it! 22:02:53 lol 22:02:56 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:02:57 oh ride wins anytime. 22:03:10 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:03:11 hmm. 22:03:23 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@92.41.233.155.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:03:32 ipod is just to save me the pain of cconverting files to mp3 :) 22:04:07 I don't know how painless putting Linux on the iPod is... 22:04:25 I don't know why you'd run Linux on the iPod instead of Rockbox. 22:04:29 My list is totally unordered though. But if I poke around closure long enough I'll get very bothered by the lack of solid documentation. :) 22:04:36 Isn't rockbox linux though? 22:04:43 That's what I thought :) 22:04:54 No, it's not. 22:04:58 As long as it plays the ogg speex I'm happy. 22:05:03 schme: So, poke harder, please. 22:05:03 It's a big superloop as I understand it. 22:05:04 Right. well that's it then. 22:05:21 superloop? 22:05:35 gilberth: I'm trying! But you guys started talking about bikes! 22:06:06 Yeah. while ((interrupt = sleep_and_wait_for_interrupts())) { switch (interrupt) { ... } } 22:06:19 No real OS, in other words. 22:06:29 I see. 22:06:32 *snrk* I have the lisp equivalent to that construct somewhere. 22:06:44 I just checked codecs.. it lists the ones that mess stuff up for me :) 22:06:58 so it can be a OS or not ;) 22:07:11 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska213070.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:08:06 elurin [n=user@85.104.132.54] has joined #lisp 22:08:58 (let* ((interrupted-task (switch-task-and-wait next-task syscall-selector))) ... 22:09:06 elurin` [n=user@85.104.132.54] has joined #lisp 22:09:20 No, I'm not going to get sucked back into that any time soon... I hope. 22:09:42 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:49 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@CPE0016b6145127-CM001a6682dc74.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 22:16:31 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbc057.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 22:21:27 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:21:31 gilberth: What's in Hamburg anyway? 22:21:57 gilberth: I here there are excellent bike routes covering Germany in general. 22:22:00 hear 22:22:07 schme: My machine happens to be there. 22:23:17 oh you need it rebooted? :) 22:23:38 schme: I won't know, I am motorist. 22:24:27 schme: lol. That was a problem once. As I were in Hamburg and my machine was 650km away. 22:24:56 Ouch! 22:25:31 Or as I as were in Bordeaux and by accident halted the wrong machine, namely the one in Hamburg. Since then no two machines share a root password any more. 22:26:02 [I was meant to shutdown my laptop instead]. 22:28:19 That was a real supid stunt of mine, unfortunatly all keys to my home were in Bordeaux too. 22:28:44 stupid, even. 22:28:59 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska213070.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:39 ivansto [i=ivans@93-138-57-202.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:29:44 Ugh! 22:30:05 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:30:30 gilberth: it helps to know people with lockpicks where you live (: 22:30:54 of course, if you do know people with lockpicks, chances are you have good locks on your door ((: 22:31:00 -!- faheem_ [n=faheem@cpe-071-077-007-143.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:45 Evva 3ks FTW 22:31:57 antifuchs: Right. But, these days I deposit a key at the company. There will always be somebody who has access to there. 22:33:18 good idea. I just keep servers with remote access to the console (: 22:34:17 _schulte_ [n=Eric@c-98-203-235-80.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:33 <_schulte_> hi, any pointers for a sbcl package for running shell commands? 22:34:45 antifuchs: I am not that professional. But, my scheme also works for the Oh-shit-I-locked-myself-out scenario. 22:35:00 _schulte_: sb-ext:run-program 22:35:16 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:52 <_schulte_> stassats: thanks, where would i find/install? (btw: I'm fairly noob w/lisps) 22:36:05 _schulte_: it's a part of sbcl 22:36:27 Praveen [n=chatzill@pool-72-78-227-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:48 how to print new line in lisp .... like \n 22:36:54 terpri 22:36:54 (terpri) 22:37:24 *stassats* lost due to parenthesis :( 22:37:30 <_schulte_> stassats: as, I see, thanks, now to teach it my path... 22:38:11 _schulte_: use cmucl :-) 22:38:38 _schulte_: :search t 22:38:50 here is documentation http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Running-external-programs.html#index-sb_002dext_003arun_002dprogram-209 22:39:00 <_schulte_> gilberth: just got sbcl running and installing packages, not switching now 22:39:12 <_schulte_> stassats: thanks, looking at that now 22:39:23 _schulte_: I was just kidding, cmucl has :search t by default. 22:40:56 <_schulte_> not quite as easy as the elisp `shell-command-to-string', but i guess I can wrap it fairly easily 22:41:19 minion: trivial-shell? 22:41:20 trivial-shell: Trivial shell is a simple platform independent interface to the underlying Operating System. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-shell 22:42:54 rswarbrick [n=rupert@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:43:32 _schulte_: (with-output-to-string (bag) (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/sh" (list "-c" "who") :output bag)) 22:44:09 <_schulte_> gilberth: nice, thanks 22:44:27 Hi there, No doubt I'm being silly, but why does (subtypep (type-of 1) '(integer 1)) return nil, T? Is this just something subtypep can't cope with? 22:44:47 *_schulte_* wonders how long it will take to learn the cl equivalent of all my trusty elisp commands 22:45:16 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-136-31-103.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:45:21 rswarbrick: (subtypep 'bit '(integer 0 1)) 22:45:49 Oh 22:45:50 Erm 22:46:01 clhs bit 22:46:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_bit.htm 22:46:15 stassats: Yes, but then how about (subtypep (type-of 5) '(integer 1)) 22:46:27 (type-of 5) gives me (INTEGER 0 536870911) 22:46:45 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 22:46:47 yes, not 1 536870911, try (subtypep (type-of 5) '(integer 0)) 22:46:50 Oh, sorry I'm being really stupid 22:46:55 I see 22:47:23 Erm, being lazy now, but is there a function to see whether an object is of a given type? 22:47:34 typep 22:47:39 D'oh 22:47:42 Thank you! 22:48:53 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbc057.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:50:09 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:54:35 -!- gloaming [n=steve@c-76-113-7-71.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:55:41 -!- elurin` [n=user@85.104.132.54] has left #lisp 22:57:59 -!- elurin [n=user@85.104.132.54] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:57:59 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:59:27 elurin [n=user@85.104.132.54] has joined #lisp 22:59:47 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 22:59:52 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:05 gilberth: This here clim-device. I was first thinking it was some device like a monitor, but it's more a "device" as a medium provided my CLIM for closure to render on? 23:03:16 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:50 schme: It's an extra abstraction layer drawn in. In theory it is supposed to provide service like to tell the resolution of your device (think tty), know about fonts and realization of gadgets (which aren't there) and stuff like that. 23:03:55 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.192.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:04:23 gilberth: Oh cools. 23:04:25 schme: There once was a complety different GUI and a Postscript as well as a tty device. So ignore it as much as you can. 23:04:34 Ah :) 23:05:01 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:17 gilberth: I'm taking notes here as I browse around. So maybe it'll at the very least turn into a wonderful blog entry :) 23:08:23 Now I'm off to bed though. good 23:08:27 'night 23:08:40 schme: A blog entry would be nice. Night, then. 23:10:55 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.242.184] has joined #lisp 23:14:04 -!- Aszarsha [n=Miranda@69.171.136.113] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:13 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:14:24 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9937c445396d0ae6] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 23:14:52 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4ec54f55bfbf2dbb] has joined #lisp 23:15:48 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host67.190-227-44.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:51 gigamonkey: How was your further journey into floating point hell? 23:19:01 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:19:14 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:15 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:15 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:19:25 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:19:48 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 23:20:39 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 23:25:12 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 23:25:55 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.5] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:35:52 heh is there any built-in function to delete an element 'a' from a list ?? 23:36:03 There are a few. 23:36:09 like ? 23:36:09 clhs delete 23:36:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 23:36:12 clhs remove 23:36:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 23:36:27 Then delete-if and remove-if, then... 23:36:47 ohh k remove helps thank u 23:37:14 The difference between delete and remove is that one is destructive and the other returns a fresh list. 23:38:20 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:59 konr`` [n=user@201.82.228.185] has joined #lisp 23:40:11 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:41:09 maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #lisp 23:41:58 *gilberth* wonders if reading is out of fashion 23:43:20 lol u mad 23:43:23 gilberth: what kind of reading are you referring to ? 23:43:27 gilberth: it went out of fashion years ago 23:43:41 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:44:12 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:25 locklace, did you give up #math or am I thinking of someone else? 23:44:42 fe[nl]ix: Like just reading the aluminum book, which is the way I and later on my ex girl friend both learned common lisp? 23:44:43 fe[nl]ix: the kind for which irc and friends is being regularly used as an extremely poor substitute 23:44:52 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:45:36 kilimanjaro: more or less 23:45:39 -!- konr` [n=user@201.82.228.185] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:05 fe[nl]ix: I was refering to the question about whether there is a function to delete an element of a list. But then, I must be a dinosaur, believing in dead wood, and capable of reading a book front to back. 23:48:50 minion: clqr? 23:48:51 clqr: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is a booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.berlios.de/ 23:49:05 it is much shorter then cltl2 23:49:14 than 23:51:02 stassats: Does it include as much jokes as cltl2? 23:51:35 gilberth: i haven't read cltl2 23:51:54 stassats: The index is the most fun part. 23:51:56 but it is suitable for such kind of questions 23:53:30 Oh, this quick reference is very nice. 23:54:25 my pdf-reader crashed at cltl2 23:54:30 So, where is the CLIM quick reference? 23:56:20 stassats: I wasn't aware that there is a pdf version of cltl2. Does it include the dead tree index? 23:56:49 gilberth: it's actually a dvi file 23:57:07 stassats: Ah, so you miss the fun part :) 23:57:13 *stassats* fetches xdvi 23:57:17 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-174.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:50 yeah, contents doesn't seem fun 23:58:16 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:59:51 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4ec54f55bfbf2dbb] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 23:59:53 stassats: Somehow the index must have been hand crafted or some such. The real jokes are there, when you browse the index of the printed edition. The LaTeX source that is available doesn't do justice. It's a kind of geek humor after all.