00:01:26 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:01:35 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:01:58 -!- ths [n=ths@p54A46086.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:33 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl10-228-49.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:05:39 topo pasted "lambda" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69571 00:05:52 one question in this case that lambda is a lambda expression? 00:06:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/69571 00:11:17 alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:38 topo: in that context, it evaluates to a function, not a lambda expression. 00:11:41 george_ [n=george@189.107.174.168] has joined #lisp 00:12:34 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@87.222.0.255] has quit ["Saliendo"] 00:12:35 -!- george_ is now known as summersalt 00:13:03 ummmh 00:13:18 -!- xian [n=xian@pdpc/supporter/active/xian] has left #lisp 00:13:23 which is the name of that lambda? 00:13:29 how to use opengl in lisp ? 00:14:01 topo: it doesn't have a name. 00:14:05 summersalt: cl-opengl is one way. 00:14:21 is it a lambda function? 00:16:19 topo: the form is read as a lambda expression. when it is evaluated (as it is in your paste), it results in a function object. 00:16:47 topo: COMPILE can take a lambda expression, too, which is a list that starts with the symbol LAMBDA. That's not what happens in your paste. 00:17:15 mmm 00:18:12 but is there an specific name of that lambda? 00:18:25 No. 00:18:48 because i see in the hyperspect la lambda macro, lambda combination, lambda expresion, lambda list, lambda symbol 00:19:05 i want to know which lambda is that one 00:19:14 topo: Go away. 00:19:29 It is pointless to tell you things, because you do not show any evidence that you learn from it. 00:19:31 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:20:03 derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:21:20 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:22:15 schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:24:27 ok thanks 00:24:43 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:27:45 Xach, would you be interested in brainstorming some on my problem or did topo deplete you? 00:28:07 manic12: the usual hammer is eval-when. 00:28:27 manic12: i missed your problem description 00:28:31 manic12: what's up? 00:29:31 in a perfect world I would like to have functions which get compiled when an ensure-class is compiled 00:29:55 i think pkhuong's on it 00:30:00 but those functions have calls to reader methods on the same class 00:31:10 what's the problem? 00:31:40 undefined function? 00:31:56 I get style warnings the first time the class is compiled because the compiler is trying to optimize the reader method calls 00:32:02 yes, undefined function 00:32:10 you can just put (defgeneric reader-name (object)) somewhere ahead of it 00:32:21 you need not define any methods to make the generic known to the system 00:32:25 manic12: are those calls in methods? 00:32:46 no 00:32:55 ok, never mind then. 00:32:59 they get used during slot-value-using-class 00:33:24 how is that not a method? 00:33:34 I used to use compile, but that would exlude the all-important lexical environment 00:34:07 DoubleVTF [n=uhho@modemcable253.59-59-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:34:09 pkhuong, uh, yes then 00:34:12 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:33 -!- ths_ [n=ths@p54A46901.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:35:14 my macro could do alot of things, i.e. compile the lambdas after the ensure-class has executed and the slots are defined 00:35:32 expanatory, does it mean that it is of explaining nature? 00:35:38 but ideally, I would like it to have a defclass equivalent 00:35:58 I believe Xach's solution would shut the compiler up, but wouldn't give you all the benefits of using a fully defined accessor. 00:36:48 if you paste what you're trying to achieve and the current results, someone might have a good idea. 00:38:05 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 00:39:11 Xach: when is your Amazon lib going to be released to the free world? 00:39:35 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:02 is anybody associated with s-xml-rpc here? 00:40:40 i got it working with CLISP as a client, but the server is still a mess 00:41:14 I'm not sure if it even worked for anybody; the various special variables have no effect when rebound 00:41:30 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:42:07 manic12 pasted "reader not known yet" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69574 00:42:21 (with-open-file (file "xml-rpc.log" ) (let ((*xml-rpc-debug-stream* file)) ) <-- does not log 00:42:43 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:43:05 I'm running sbcl in vmware, and for some reason, I couldn't cut and paste from emacs to firefox 00:43:08 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:43:09 nothing goes down the wire. *xml-rpc-call-hook* has no effect when bound 00:43:10 andrewy_ [i=andrewy@209.126.180.153] has joined #lisp 00:43:30 -!- andrewy [i=andrewy@209.126.180.153] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:43:55 manic12: where is "defobject" defined? 00:44:11 fusss: M-. 00:44:29 fuss: I gotta figure out my cut and paste 00:44:42 sykopomp: we're not on manic12's computer. 00:44:48 manic12: THE takes a value type and a form 00:44:49 -!- andrewy_ is now known as andrewy 00:45:54 oh yeah, "the" is shadowed, it expands to (send self slot-name) which expands to (slot-value self 'slot-name) 00:47:00 sykopomp: i have been through the sources all night, methinks s-xml-rpc is best made into a library for webserver, aserve or ht, instead of an standalone library 00:47:37 manic12 annotated #69574 with "defobject" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69574#1 00:47:38 fusss: hm, do you know about cxml-rpc? (: 00:47:54 fusss: it's hunchentoot/drakma-based, and works with a more modern xml library (: 00:47:56 antifuchs: no /me googles 00:48:04 woooah :-P 00:48:44 (-8 00:48:55 sources mate! pass 'em! 00:49:37 oh sure. git repo is at http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/cxml-rpc.git 00:50:24 there is probably no way to do it 00:50:42 eating my cake too that is 00:51:02 fusss: you can get a tarball snapshot too, of course (: 00:51:31 yeah i'm on windoze, was about to look for a git client 00:52:10 anyone got world of warcraft woring with wine? 00:52:13 the latest snapshot (if you didn't see the link in the web interface) is at http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/cxml-rpc.git?a=snapshot;h=af4168786d8a463cf71a715b3c6415aabf25366e;sf=tgz 00:52:20 manic12: let me look through the logs and see what you're trying to do 00:52:31 the_unmaker: I don't think this is the right channel for this question 00:53:47 antifuchs: thanks allot 00:53:48 :-) 00:54:08 you're welcome! I hope it's useful for you (: 00:54:44 what other composite datatypes are there than arrays/vectors? 00:54:48 i'm sure it will be 00:55:03 SEQUENCE, the mother of all composite datatypes 00:55:23 linked lists you mean? 00:55:24 LISt Processing ;-) 00:56:21 bertskert1: every composite datastructure is there, but they're layered on top of each other 00:56:34 bertskert1: hash tables, structures, classes 00:56:52 _8david [n=user@pD9541009.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:56:59 fuss: i'm trying to do something impossible with most CLOS implementations 00:57:02 packages, too 00:57:02 bertskert1: look at the hyperspec contents 00:57:10 manic12: what? 00:57:16 so abstract datatypes, datastructures and composite datatypes are the same? 00:57:48 fusss: array isn't sequence 00:57:50 not if you don't want them to :-) 00:57:58 have functions compiled when the ensure-class is compiled inside the slot-specs which refer to other slots and don't give style warnings 00:58:12 stassats`: vector is, and vector is a one dimensional array 00:58:31 fusss: but array isn't vector 00:58:38 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@138.88.126.7] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:58:47 stassats`: correct, didn't mean to imply otherwise 00:59:11 bertskert1: lisp has bit-vectors :-) oooh, and adjustable ones too :-) 00:59:18 =) 00:59:34 the idea behind having the lambdas in the slot specs is so that there will be an equivalent defclass for a defobject 00:59:39 but data structures and composite datatypes are the same then? 01:00:03 composite datatypes are one kind of datastructure 01:00:33 correction, composite datatypes are one kind of datatype 01:01:08 you can define a new datatype BIG-ENDIAN-OCTET if you want, which is just a scalar but has the usual ADT operations 01:01:20 creation, testing for equality, etc. 01:01:54 so array is a data structure while a bit-field or a struct is a composite datatype? 01:02:16 array is a datastructure, and bit-field or a struct is still a datastructure 01:02:46 dataTYPES group the various datastructures into heirarchies and expose their relationships 01:03:26 an instance of class STUDENT is a class datastructure of type student-class 01:03:38 somebody has to know something. 01:04:04 manic12: can you paste a short description of what you're trying to do, if you haven't done so already 01:05:17 manic12: are you trying to initialize an instance based on the initial-value of a previous slot? 01:07:47 manic12: have you trying writing a before method for INITIALIZE-INSTANCE and getting at the slots that way? 01:07:56 *fusss* getting a vague idea from the logs 01:08:14 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 01:08:25 *fusss* spec says you're not allowed to mess with INITIALIZE-INSTANCE and MAKE-INSTANCE :-( 01:10:12 manic12 annotated #69574 with "cake and eat it too" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69574#2 01:11:14 the whole thing works if you keep the lambdas out of the ensure class 01:11:21 manic12: short of time travel, I don't see how it's possible to do that (literally, anyway) 01:11:31 i.e. put them in methods, functions, or even a list 01:12:19 -!- lichtblau [n=user@pD9540067.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:12:27 pkhuong: thank you, that's what I was afraid of. 01:13:16 one idea I have though (very sneaky, kills two birds with one stone)... 01:13:21 manic12: i don't know that much about clos :-S 01:13:33 eval-when? 01:14:05 is to use the named-lambda, compile the named-lambdas in a list after the ensure-class 01:14:32 then in the shared-initialize of the slots metaobjects, grab em 01:15:05 that way also, the user knows where a problem with the user code is, because of the named-lambda 01:15:34 but I don't want to use global symbols 01:16:30 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:14 ( : input (one foo )) 01:17:24 example of a name of the lambda 01:19:11 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 01:21:04 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 01:22:36 manic12 annotated #69574 with "how do I get this function back?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69574#3 01:22:43 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:22:50 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:27:45 if this is any indication of the popularity of mop dsl's should I even bother to finish and release it? 01:29:06 manic12: you're here in the wrong hour 01:29:30 manic12: a named-lambda is just like a lambda, but it has a name (for pretty printing/debugging purposes) 01:29:36 there is heavy traffic between 10AM - 8PM GMT 01:31:31 another thing i recommend is http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/closer-mop.html so you don't have to mess with SB-INT (if closer works as advertised for your needs) 01:31:32 pkhuong, so give up on it, and compile the functions after the ensure class is done? right? 01:31:49 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 01:32:01 manic12: if you can, that seems like a sane way 01:32:17 brb 01:32:22 fusss: PCL/MOP isn't in SB-INT. 01:32:24 i guess the only bad thing is that it forces people to use defobject 01:35:49 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:07 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-133.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:16 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-096-188.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:45:50 thanks, pkhuong & everyone 01:49:47 -!- ciscbrain [n=eugen@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:06 -!- DoubleVTF [n=uhho@modemcable253.59-59-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:48 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 02:04:11 egn [n=egn@c-76-25-206-124.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:14 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:05:19 hey, if I'm doing (+ foo bar) , can I force that to be a double like: (+ 0.24d0 0.15d0) ? 02:05:38 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 02:07:12 you mean the result? 02:07:19 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:29 clhs coerce 02:07:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm 02:07:29 arithmetic operations are generic and do the necessary type conversion 02:07:37 but you can also coerce them 02:07:43 yeah, like chandler said 02:08:01 thanks 02:08:06 -!- bertskert1 [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 02:11:07 ivanst [i=ivans@93-136-96-245.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:11:49 yeoh [n=chatzill@128.223.111.218.kmr03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 02:13:12 not really sure why I'm getting this, I thought that -5.15022d-4 is a double-float? http://paste.lisp.org/display/69577 02:14:17 I think it is expecting a non-negative value 02:14:53 everything is working fine with negative values until (I think) it gets too small or something 02:15:23 -!- yeoh [n=chatzill@128.223.111.218.kmr03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Client Quit] 02:18:31 egn: works in clisp win32 02:18:47 (type-of -5.15022d-4) ==> DOUBLE-FLOAT 02:19:13 win32 sbcl, same 02:19:24 weird, that works for me too 02:19:35 but I don't get why it's throwing that error when I use it in my program 02:20:05 because it's expecting a non-negative number 02:20:10 even works on win32 Clozure CL :-) 02:20:12 clhs double-float 02:20:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_short_.htm 02:20:38 (typep -5.15022d-4 '(OR (SINGLE-FLOAT (0.0)) (DOUBLE-FLOAT (-0.0d0)))) => nil 02:20:40 the first argument to the type specifier DOUBLE-FLOAT is the lower bound 02:21:20 (typep -5.15022d-4 '(OR (SINGLE-FLOAT (0.0)) (DOUBLE-FLOAT (-1.0d0)))) => t 02:24:23 yes 02:24:38 *oudeis_* sorry, wrong window 02:25:10 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 02:26:39 _k_b_d [n=kbd_@222.65.24.216] has joined #lisp 02:31:12 egn: yup, -5... isn't a strictly positive number. 02:32:36 hello pkhuong 02:33:22 good evening, chandler. 02:33:40 Xof mentioned yesterday that you had access to Linux/Alpha machines 02:33:48 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-38-216.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:50 Is there any chance I could cajole you into building a new binary? 02:34:02 sure. 02:34:09 I was just looking for the hostname 02:35:03 *chandler* is getting gc invariant lossage at the end of target-2 on Linux/PPC 02:35:08 host down. Have to wait for the sysadmins. 02:35:18 chandler: and do you need linux-x86 binary? 02:36:25 stassats`: no, that one I'll do myself 02:36:32 chandler: ok 02:36:45 actually had a visit from Mr. OOM Killer yesterday while I was trying to build that 02:36:47 k_bd [n=kbd_@222.65.24.216] has joined #lisp 02:36:58 something evidently decided to leak a lot, because that machine has 8GB in it! 02:37:09 what's people's impression of usocket? is the "bordeaux-sockets" i have been looking for? 02:37:40 my impression is that usocket is good for me 02:37:53 iolib targets more than the common denominator, if usocket isn't enough. 02:38:04 \o/ 02:38:33 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-dadeec609c7d3fd4] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:39:30 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-1f3e682e970fbcf5] has joined #lisp 02:40:06 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:40:07 hi, can someone help me understand how i can have a clos class' initform for one slot be a function of the initarg to another slot? 02:40:42 fusss: You just made me blush. 02:40:53 jlf`: you can't. You have to wrap, e.g. initialize-instance, or use a factory. 02:40:56 sellout: why? :-) 02:41:00 I think that's the nicest thing anyone's said about B-T. 02:41:06 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.139.96] has joined #lisp 02:41:14 awwww, mate! i think you for all your efforts 02:41:28 pkhuong: ah, ok thanks 02:41:35 sorry if I don't know people around here well 02:42:00 s/think/thank/ 02:46:06 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.139.96] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:49:22 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:41 -!- _k_b_d [n=kbd_@222.65.24.216] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:00:05 ausente [n=id@201-1-117-202.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:01:05 -!- wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:03:41 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:03:43 -!- jao [n=user@224.Red-83-33-176.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:44 http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html is getting less moldy! 03:11:06 Solaris, FreeBSD, and Win32 builds are up next, but probably tomorrow. 03:11:18 (Solaris/x86, that is.) 03:12:13 chandler: thank you 03:15:21 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@c66-235-39-146.sea2.cablespeed.com] has joined #lisp 03:22:48 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A24835.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 03:22:50 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:25:53 usocket, winage! ^_^ 03:26:48 chandler: what did you update? :-) 03:27:28 oh, mips; most are 1.0.22! 03:28:34 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 03:29:40 fusss: um? I didn't update mips 03:30:00 I just uploaded x86/linux and x86/openbsd 03:30:42 the latter replaced a 0.8.moldy binary that was probably built by wnewman himself 03:30:52 oh, never mind, i thought you were crazy enough to build sbcl on QEMU-mips 03:31:55 not yet! 03:32:58 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@c66-235-39-146.sea2.cablespeed.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:34:20 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:34:45 Hmm, I can update the NetBSD/PPC entry if anyone is interested. 03:34:45 chandler: how about moving the download verbiage to the bottom of the homepage? 03:36:07 has anyone started working on fbsd/sparc? 03:36:45 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D790.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:37:39 also, what 03:37:53 s the policy on sb-thread (i can do fbsd/x86[-64] quickly) 03:44:26 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:24 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:51:18 dialtone [n=dialtone@c66-235-12-91.sea2.cablespeed.com] has joined #lisp 03:53:34 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-19-195.kosnet.ru] has quit ["Love."] 03:55:30 mdxi [n=mdxi@li11-97.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:55:46 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:24 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-27-144.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:59:04 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["bye"] 03:59:05 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 03:59:05 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 03:59:06 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 03:59:20 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:22 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:27 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:39 pkhuong: taking away my motivation for setting up that VM probably isn't the greatest idea :-) 04:00:03 pkhuong: as I mentioned on sbcl-devel, I've been building on Linux with threads and on lutex platforms without threads, but maybe it's time to revisit that 04:00:31 if so, 1.0.23 can usher in a new age of lutex-enabled binaries! 04:00:48 I can probably find Open and Free on just about any platform. 04:01:47 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-27-144.dip.osnanet.de] has left #lisp 04:02:21 pkhuong: if you're willing to build binaries every month on those platforms, that would be great 04:02:52 Let me try my first binary distribution first. 04:02:57 OK :-) 04:03:27 For reference, here are the steps that I use: 04:04:01 cvs -z3 co -r sbcl_1_0_22 -d sbcl-1.0.22-x86-openbsd sbcl # replace versions as appropriate 04:04:07 cd sbcl-*; sh make.sh 04:04:19 cd ..; sh sbcl-*/binary-distribution.sh sbcl-* 04:04:41 bzip2 *.tar; scp *.bz2 bmastenbrook@frs.sf.net:uploads/ 04:04:42 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has quit [] 04:04:47 then, off to fight with the FRS of DOOM 04:05:51 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:01 I think I'll leave that step to you and just upload the tarballs somewhere 04:06:02 pkhuong: what did you mean by moving the download verbiage to the bottom of the homepage? 04:06:10 ok, sure 04:06:25 Good morning. 04:06:53 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:07:29 Most of the data in platform-table.html could be moved to index.html instead of having to click on a link to get to the information just about everyone's looking for. 04:07:51 you mean, including the table itself? 04:08:02 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@c66-235-39-146.sea2.cablespeed.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:08:03 especially the table itself. 04:08:03 Good evening beach. 04:08:12 Oh, that's a good idea. 04:08:38 -!- k_bd [n=kbd_@222.65.24.216] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:10:14 Anyway, DST rollback or no I should get some sleep. 04:13:32 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.139.96] has joined #lisp 04:14:20 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:23 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:18 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:19:06 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:21:14 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:53 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 04:22:08 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:19 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@c66-235-39-146.sea2.cablespeed.com] has joined #lisp 04:34:15 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:36:16 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:40:09 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 04:41:01 fusss_ [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:54 technik_ [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:11 -!- derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has left #lisp 04:44:37 faheem_ [n=faheem@cpe-071-077-007-143.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:45:02 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:45:58 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.139.96] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:47:12 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:47:32 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:47:43 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:58 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@c66-235-12-91.sea2.cablespeed.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:49:13 pragma__ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 04:53:33 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:56:04 -!- faheem [n=faheem@cpe-071-077-007-143.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:56:34 -!- technik [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:57:21 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:58:45 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:42 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:03:12 hi 05:03:29 i'm excited about this international lisp conference next march. i live only 45 minutes away from cambridge. 05:04:15 Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 05:09:47 it's in cambridge?? 05:09:56 as in, MA? 05:11:27 dialtone [n=dialtone@c66-235-12-91.sea2.cablespeed.com] has joined #lisp 05:11:55 Eleanore [n=a@c-6573e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:12:15 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0F35.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:12:24 we have come a long way baby! 2D and 3D graphics (via opengl and sdl) audio mixer and various graphics libs. all loadable via ASDF and useable through win32 clisp .. out of the box! 05:12:36 wow! :-D 05:13:42 dooo [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:13:50 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:14:31 -!- dooo is now known as dto3 05:16:29 -!- ausente [n=id@201-1-117-202.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [] 05:16:59 -!- dto3 is now known as dto 05:19:43 Okay, I'm getting stupid. How do I get FORMAT to just not print the d0 on the end of a double float? 05:20:03 Hmm, ~g maybe. 05:20:31 gigamonk`: *default-float-format*? 05:20:56 Nah. ~g isn't quite right. 05:21:13 pkhuong: I guess. I was hoping there was some way to just tell FORMAT to leave it out. 05:21:51 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c-6573e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:23:02 Actually, assuming we're talking about *read-default-float-format*, that doesn't do the trick. 05:23:05 Eleanore [n=a@c-6573e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:25:20 Grrr, if I specify ~,20f it leaves off the "d0" but adds extra trailing zeros. 05:26:12 Ah, *read-default-float-format* does do the trick if you set it to the right value ('double-float, not 'double) 05:27:07 fusss_: congratulations. that sounds useful. I'd like a similar setup for macos/sbcl. 05:27:42 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@c66-235-39-146.sea2.cablespeed.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:30 slyrus: http://lispbuilder.sourceforge.net/#mac :-) 05:37:23 woah! " *** Warning: File `../Makefile.opts' has modification time in the future (2008-11-02 01:23:40 > 2008-11-02 01:34:08)" 05:37:42 we just entered day-light savings on hour ago and i'm getting Y2K style build errors 05:38:51 how do you say find / -iname * -exec touch {} \; in Windows Script Host? :-P 05:39:47 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4720B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:26 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c-6573e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:43:46 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.17] has joined #lisp 05:44:38 Morning! 05:44:45 hello tic 05:45:00 hi, beach 05:46:25 morn tic 05:47:24 *tic* takes another stab at git 05:48:15 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-1f3e682e970fbcf5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:48:39 hmm ideally build tools should use an epoch-based timestamp or such rather than local-converted time... 05:48:42 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-c3476c73b2410c66] has joined #lisp 05:51:18 err actually, should use system time rather than locale-converted time 05:53:44 ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-136-96-85.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 05:54:25 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:06 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46504.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:59:38 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@24.143.65.167] has joined #lisp 06:06:31 Eleanore [n=a@c-6573e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 06:06:31 Sweetandy [n=Sweetand@c-24-22-132-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:38 hello everbooody 06:07:16 -!- ivanst [i=ivans@93-136-96-245.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:10:55 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-38-216.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:12:40 -!- lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:15:23 dialtone1 [n=dialtone@24.143.65.167] has joined #lisp 06:16:10 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@c66-235-12-91.sea2.cablespeed.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:21:47 beach, solved it! try to do a 'git pull mjansson' (or if you want it in two steps, 'git fetch mjansson' followed by 'git merge mjansson') 06:23:57 'lo Sweetandy 06:23:58 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 06:24:17 beach, I had to run 'git-update-server-info --force' on my bare repos first. 06:25:27 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c-6573e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:25:35 tic: but first I do the add remote thing? 06:27:06 tic: still get "not something we can merge" 06:27:24 g'day 06:27:38 tic: oh, but the single-step process (pull) worked. 06:28:04 beach, hold a bit. 06:28:09 (renaming the repos..) 06:30:36 tic: It's OK, I got it. 06:31:15 *tic* struggles with git claiming my repos not being a repos. 06:32:11 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@24.143.65.167] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:34:12 My god! 06:34:14 It is done! 06:34:22 :D 06:34:41 schme_: remind us what you are (were) working on? 06:34:43 what! tell! 06:34:49 mon dieu! C'est fini! 06:34:51 >_> 06:35:57 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.17] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:36:17 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-225.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:38:23 There. Version mismatch between git on my computer and the one on c-l.net, so git-update-server-info didn't work there, but here. now it should be a real repos again. 06:40:09 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:46:36 stassats [n=stassats@ppp91-122-109-214.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 06:46:56 beach: I was "working on" migrating a postgresql database to sqlite. I dumped it, got a file with INSERTs in, fire up sqlite and .read foo.sql . I need it to do part of my meal planner thing. But I had no idea that sqlite would take 12 hrs to .read it :P 06:47:07 I guess this saves me from trying to get climacs behaving today :D 06:49:39 tic: I seem to remember you pointing me to some swedish nutrition database some time back, or was it someone else? 06:50:01 schme_, probably me. http://www.livsmedelsverket.se or http://minmat.net (for statistics) 06:50:21 jestocost [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:50:54 Ah cool, thanks. I'll use that too. 06:51:58 -!- crod [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:52:14 schme_, or, do as me, learn everything by heart. 06:53:02 That's not happening. 06:53:13 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 06:53:40 Hi everyone. Can somebody recommend a good way to use ajax with hunchentoot? 06:53:50 I've been trying to get ht-ajax, but their website is down 06:53:53 I had about 650 000 entries in the database I have now, and I'm *not* learning that by heart. It would also serve no purpose, the whole idea with my software is to make it so I don't have to do calculations by hand. 06:55:21 tic: But if you do know it all by heart, then I applaud you! 06:55:55 schme_, not /all/ by heart, of course. I do find that I remember info on quite a lot of the entries. 06:57:24 breakfast time? 06:57:26 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F653.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:36 morning H4ns1. 06:57:47 moin 06:58:05 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA0C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:58:08 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 06:58:28 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA0C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:59:20 tic: Well lunch time anyway :) 06:59:31 schme_, when did you get up{? 06:59:37 tic: At 4 07:00:03 tic: I can't even remember single items by hand. It's too much to keep track of :) 07:00:40 schme_, OK, so I remember mostly the macro parts. 07:00:52 Oh hum. 07:01:01 some micro. 07:01:06 Well I guess that works if that is what yer after :) 07:01:09 *schme_* is obsessed. 07:01:23 *tic* knows he gets the micro right from the latest few blood samples. 07:01:38 That's cool. Where do you get those analyzed? 07:02:31 mooglenorph: i can send you my copy of ht-ajax 07:02:39 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 07:02:53 schme_, priv... 07:03:23 oh hum 07:03:47 *fusss* wishes somebody would get him a cl-opengl tar ball ^_^ 07:04:11 oh. 07:04:18 fusss: Patzy has one 07:06:33 hmmm, the git client front on windows seems messy 07:07:28 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:08:00 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 07:21:41 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:23:52 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:26:46 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 07:26:56 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 07:28:27 and of course, cl-opengl uses darcs .. 07:50:14 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.65.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:51:06 Sometimes I wonder whether it would help the current download situation if I were to create a download area containing tarballs of pretty much every reasonably widely-used Lisp system out there. On the one hand it seems it would, but on the other hand, if things are that simple, why hasn't anyone thought about it before? 07:52:01 beach: i'm still debating whether to create a "batteries included" lisp distro or not 07:52:45 fusss: Someone else was thinking about that. Was it hefner perhaps? 07:52:48 there is Lispbox 07:52:58 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 07:53:19 and today I found LispBuilder, easily the best effort for graphics/game/GUI programming on Windows 07:53:48 over the past two weeks I got into many different libraries and found a few gems i wish many people knew about 07:54:48 it might be better to have AWESOME CFFI support and standardize on a few libs 07:55:02 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2F63A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:36 i hacked on s-xml-rpc, and it would have been best to use usocket for networking, instead of #+foo style stuff that doesn't even work 07:55:47 *beach* tries to avoid *FFI 07:56:01 good idea, and that's the point of portable libraries 07:56:57 a few years ago i was thrilled about being able to fire Hemlock against any lisp function (ed 'foo); today the situation is allot different 07:58:50 Did the (lisp) call get taken out of parenscript? 07:59:50 Because I tried to use it with my version from git. I don't know how else to nest calls to the html/javascript generator (that's the method they use in the manual to do it) 08:00:48 *fusss* particularly appreciates cl-darcs, because the official darcs is written in an obscure functional language that many people don't have on their systems ^_^ 08:01:57 Unlike CL which a lot of people have on their system? 08:02:10 I was going to say something similar. 08:02:38 sarcasm detectors must be still asleep in .eu ;-) 08:02:52 Yes. 08:02:59 Indeed. 08:03:00 mine was thrown off by the "^_^" 08:03:03 We will have none of the filthy foreign sarcasm. 08:03:32 beach: but i agree, tarballs or perish; just downloaded git to fetch package, and the git install expanded to 150mb :-/ 08:03:54 beach: It shouldn't be too difficult to do a tarball thing though, should it? One could just steal clbuild and remake it a bit .) 08:06:38 schme_: That would be one possibility. 08:06:54 -!- summersalt [n=george@189.107.174.168] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:07:19 schme_: But I keep thinking I must be missing something. Either it is not as easy as I think, or not as useful as I imagine. 08:08:07 Ya.. I dunno about the usefulness. I don't really like tarballs meself 08:08:43 schme_: I imagine it would be for the benefit of all those who would just want to do (asdf-install:install ...) 08:10:44 schme_: ... so that we could tell them that, rather then, uh, well, you see, in order to install McCLIM, you would take it from the cvs repository, and then for that to work, you need the latest darcs version of CLX which Xof has somewhere, oh, and you need to install darcs first.... 08:11:07 sudoer [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 08:11:20 schme_: But again, I think I must be missing something. 08:11:43 And put a symlink HERE. 08:11:44 hehehe 08:13:19 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.105.93] has joined #lisp 08:16:06 does asdf-install even work for us widows clispers? 08:16:52 I have no idea, but I guess it should. 08:21:49 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 08:24:09 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:03 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:29:15 On the other hand, if it really *is* that easy, I could go ahead and do it anyway, and then just see whether it would be useful. 08:30:14 beach, download area of pretty much all Lisp systems. How does that differ from asdf-install and cliki.net? 08:30:15 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD3A751.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:30:16 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:30:17 kami- [n=user@p4FD3A751.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:32:00 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 08:32:07 tic: Only in minor ways. For instance, if the author of a system doesn't supply a tarball, then I could make such a tarball and put it in that area. 08:33:06 beach, I see. Have you thought of the upgrade path? (i.e., making a tarball from HEAD without supplying version information is probably not a good idea) 08:33:24 nooo! 08:33:35 Don't listen to tic. There is nothing complicated at all going on here (: 08:33:55 tic: I haven't been thinking very hard about it, but one possibility would be to use the date as version information. 08:34:39 beach, yes, but perhaps that information also needs to be coded into the source, or at the very least, the directory containing the asd? 08:34:43 asdf-install works on win32 clisp, but most servers are down or don't have pgp keys 08:35:35 tic: Yes, but now we are starting on a very recognizable path, i.e., if we can't make it perfect, we get paralyzed and don't do anything at all. 08:35:37 beach: if the author doesn't supply a tarball, people can upload a tar ball to your host and update the cliki page. 08:35:46 beach, true. 08:36:07 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 08:36:09 beach, ... you make it sound like overanalyzing is a bad thing. 08:36:15 fusss: My lab doesn't allow that kind of access, so I would have to put it there. 08:36:30 yourself? might be allot of manual labor 08:36:51 fusss: I just hit ignore on the missing pgp key 08:36:52 tic: Analyzing is fine. Letting too much analysis get in the way of action is probably not. 08:36:53 maybe there could be a staging area somewhere in the form of anonymous FTP. 08:37:14 schme_: i'm not getting that option with my asdf-install 08:37:15 fusss: I am trying to estimate the amount of work it would represent. 08:37:36 fusss: Hmm ok. I seem to remember getting ignore, retry, abort. 08:37:41 Or something in that general area. 08:38:13 tic: We also need a way of having multiple versions of a system (and therefor of a package) to be present in the same Lisp image, but that's another thing I have no solution for at the moment. 08:38:48 if I wasn't being rude, i would love to be able to "vote" on a library 08:39:05 either say it's great, or tell people something else is better 08:39:59 i hacked on s-xml-rpc all night, at least 5 hours, just to findout it wasn't even sending anything to the server 08:43:22 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.79.7] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:44:40 metawilm [n=willem@78.52.96.220] has joined #lisp 08:47:52 mulligan [n=user@e178057059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:50:24 beach, there was a proposal for that by someone, but I can't remember his name. 08:50:51 tic: jsnell had one proposal: package environments 08:50:57 beach, that's it. 08:51:35 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178057059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:54:25 kami-` [n=user@p4FD3A1B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:41 lispm [n=joswig@f054054012.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:55:46 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD3A751.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:58:37 haiwei [n=haiwei@61.149.75.2] has joined #lisp 09:03:58 its important to vote 09:04:05 so says the billboards 09:05:43 aha! I can only do :ecl on a marked range, but I can't do :ecl << FOO (lisp-goes-here) FOO. 09:05:58 *tic* makes the first few trembling steps 09:08:28 Hoh... So I have a class named src-cd, how do I remove it from mah system so I can make a new src-cd class? 09:09:10 schme_: just redefine it. 09:09:12 Just redefine it. 09:09:25 Cannot CHANGE-CLASS objects into CLASS metaobjects 09:09:28 Next, plesae. 09:09:39 please too 09:10:11 schme_: I meant (defclass src-cd (...) ...) 09:10:28 Ah no. I need to def-view-class 09:10:44 schme_: sorry, you just lost me 09:11:01 ciscbrain [n=eugen@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:11:10 ok 09:11:26 I'm doing (defclass .... (:metaclass standard-db-class)) 09:11:51 resulting in [Condition of type SB-PCL::METAOBJECT-INITIALIZATION-VIOLATION] 09:11:59 schme_: (unintern) 09:12:20 hrm.. 09:12:21 it happens often when changing the metaclass of a class 09:12:29 ah thanks mate. 09:12:54 np 09:14:18 beach, good morning! 09:15:25 hello lispm 09:15:50 I just had a thought, and wanted to get some feedback 09:16:03 I'm listening 09:16:28 *fusss* has been ripping apart good libraries to make them work with win32 clisp, wonders if he should send back patches .. 09:16:34 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:38 we have wikis (cliki, mcclim wiki, ...) and common-lisp.net as some of the main resources 09:16:50 but I don't know of a document repository 09:16:58 CDR FTW! 09:17:09 common lisp documented repository 09:17:15 no, for PDFs of all kind 09:17:31 I'd like to see them physically stored 09:17:33 lispm: OK, what are you suggesting? 09:17:46 for papers, books, etc. in PDF formats or similar 09:17:49 q: 09:17:57 patches must come back, come home, so that the software can spread. 09:17:58 lispm: (I mean, I haven't checked whether what you said is true, but I am willing to believe you). 09:18:11 I'm not sure either 09:18:18 odin knows what would happen if cliki had as much as cpan 09:18:35 cpan is a mess 09:18:40 manuel [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 09:18:46 but how about a common-lisp.net project storing documents in a directory hierarchy 09:19:04 and a few librarians organizing the contents (if necessary) 09:19:25 lispm: Sounds like a fine idea to me. 09:19:31 here is an exercise in insanity, try getting the modules you need to remove mime attachments from mail .. i will wait 6 months for ya :-P 09:19:45 I have a document collection on my home machine, other probably collect documents, too 09:19:51 lispm: copy right mess? 09:19:55 fusss: did you try mel-base? 09:19:57 yes 09:20:12 fusss: that one we have to be careful with 09:20:18 beach: I mean in perl 09:20:27 but I hate when papers get lost, because some site goes away 09:20:45 sometimes publishers open up documents so that they can get collected 09:20:52 the practical extraction library has more than one to not extract mail attachments properly 09:21:02 there is a computer history site with Lisp documents 09:21:16 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:21:25 but there were papers published at the various Lisp events, in books, journals, ... 09:21:48 why not collect what can be made public 09:21:48 lispm: for those, the copyright issue definitely has to be looked in to. 09:22:51 lispm: Sounds good. A word of caution, though. If you just create the site and expect others to fill it with contents, I think it is going to fail. 09:23:08 -!- manuel [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:23:23 just today I read somebody on comp.lang.lisp saying that he does not know any useful CLOS text providing good advice on using CLOS 09:23:41 Keene? 09:23:47 he did not like that 09:24:02 hard to please eh? 09:24:03 lispm: I think there is room for a book to replace Keene. 09:24:16 subodh_shivapuja [i=c142c881@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f981887700f996a7] has joined #lisp 09:24:18 That would be a difficult one to publish on a site like that anyway, no? 09:24:20 the Scheme guys have readscheme.org 09:24:21 lispm: The examples feel pretty old. 09:24:31 yes 09:24:33 (I mean the Keene book) 09:24:39 is there any lisp version of log and exp ? 09:24:59 Pfft.. "here's how you write an installer to work with both genera and unix" .. No idea how that sounds old ;) 09:25:07 hehe. 09:25:13 the locking isn't old, though! 09:25:21 lhz: yeah, log and expt 09:25:25 *schme_* would also love another good CLOS book though. 09:25:54 I would like the lisp implementation of LOG and EXP. 09:25:59 The Art of the Metaobject Protocol by Gregor Kiczales 09:26:10 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-143-143.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:17 lhz: the functions? just told you, LOG and EXPT 09:26:17 subodh_shivapuja: what about it? 09:26:36 a *very* good book on the obejct system 09:26:47 subodh_shivapuja, it's not as much a CLOS book as it is on the MOP. Too advanced. 09:27:05 *tic* wouldn't throw The AMOP at a Lisp newbie. 09:27:07 subodh_shivapuja: on the internals, whence the door with the star images, as in "backstage" ;-) 09:27:20 subodh_shivapuja: Well, what is needed is a book mainly for users of the part of CLOS that is also in the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 09:27:25 fusss: If my lisp doesnt have LOG and EXP I would have to implement them. Thats what I want to do. 09:27:38 I think lisp in pieces is in the advanced category.. ah well 09:27:53 lhz: then you're looking for a book on numerical computing, knuth volume 2, etc. 09:27:57 lhz: call out to fdlibm? 09:28:13 Krystof, that's very good suggestion 09:28:30 isnt it ease enough to be pastable ?.. I cant call out, else libc would do. 09:28:38 ffi? 09:28:46 it's a numerical problem. no 09:28:55 lhz: ok, translate fdlibm to your lisp and then use that 09:29:07 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:29:35 ffi would be too much of an overhead? 09:29:36 lispm: how about a platform for plugging good libraries? i have been dying to tell people about Elephant, Lispbuilder and Bordeaux-Threads :-) 09:30:23 subodh_shivapuja: but .. you can't paste the C library you're calling. the criteria is pasteability. 09:30:53 krystof: ouch, that c code look very optimized and therefor not very readable. 09:32:41 (defun exp (x) (loop for i upfrom 0 for xx = 1 then (* xx x) sum (/ xx (factorial i)))) 09:33:04 (defun factorial (x) (if (= x 0) 1 (* x (fact (1- x))))) 09:33:06 there you go 09:33:35 don't expect the compiler to get that code fast, though 09:33:36 pretty funny! 09:33:40 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-50-42.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:33:56 I am looking for a persistent object protocol, and Elephant looks nice. Does anyone have any recommendation? 09:34:11 +1 elephant 09:34:15 cl-perec was discussed yesterday. 09:34:51 tic: thanks. I will take a look at it. 09:35:00 Krystof, calculating a Maclaurin series would be more precide but in lisp? 09:36:05 -!- the_unmaker [n=Administ@cpe-76-166-187-100.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:36:06 krystof: thanks.. what about log ? 09:38:12 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-139-178.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:38:12 crhodes is more of a mathematicial than me, but if performace is that important that you can;t use ffi, maybe you can use memoized versions of fdlibm.. I would leave chis to comment on this as I am most probably incorrect 09:41:47 benny [n=benny@i577A0519.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:42:05 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:42:33 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD3A1B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:42:36 kami-` [n=user@p4FD3A1B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:43:12 subodh_shivapuja: Let me rephrase that. I'd love a good CLOS book that is not AMOP or the Keene one. 09:43:13 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:27 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:43:55 schme_, "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" by Sonya E. Keene ? 09:45:11 ... that is -not- the Keene one? 09:45:21 schme_, more modern? 09:45:45 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:45:58 it is the best book on CLOS. what problems are you facing.. frankly, I did not understand much of it either however.. its not available online? 09:46:22 jestocost [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:46:27 my copy of Keene's books is the only text with "yellow pages" that isn't a phone directory 09:46:28 subodh_shivapuja: I'm sorry. Let me rephrase that. I'd love a good CLOS book that is not AMOP or the one you just mentioned. 09:46:55 subodh_shivapuja: Yes it's a lovely book. I'm just all for more good lisp books on the market. 09:46:56 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Success] 09:47:09 tic: Good question. I'm not really looking for one for myself :) 09:48:09 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:49:54 there is an ucpming trend in fp, but that crowd is all for F#, ECMAScript or maybe ERLANG.. but not lisp.. no one publishes new lisp books now.. 09:50:19 maybe the latest one was p. norvig's lisp book that he hid as an AI book 09:51:02 Maybe that's because Lisp isn't a strictly functional programming language? 09:51:20 Ya I don't quite see why CL would be on the FP bandwagon there. 09:51:26 is it possible to anything in a strictly functional programming language? 09:51:34 Nope. 09:51:34 subodh_shivapuja, yes, see Haskell. 09:51:40 lol 09:51:40 (it has IO, though) 09:51:47 creddy_ [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-113-170.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:51:47 sided effects! 09:51:57 But the first thing you do in haskell is kick it into a monad with side effects though. 09:51:59 subodh_shivapuja, yes, but in quaranteens. 09:52:02 lol 09:52:14 schme_, no. most of your app is written purely functional. 09:52:14 So it's not strictly functional at all. Just the functional parts are seperated from the non-functional. 09:52:21 Ya most of it. 09:52:23 no no.. a strictly functional programming language is only for abstract mathematics 09:52:25 only the small part that needs to talk to the outside world have side-effects. 09:52:54 schme_, a _very_ large part, even. but anyway. wrong channel. 09:52:56 Making it.. not strictly functional. 09:52:58 I head a talk between Armstogn and Eric Meijer on this issue.. 09:53:00 forgot where 09:53:06 (mind you I enjoy haskell) 09:53:07 Ya. 09:53:33 Eric Meijer was very "to the point" - you either *have* side effects or you don't 09:53:39 I need to write some database classes here. Anyone have a good thing for automatically generating 'em? 09:53:57 from sql tables I mean. 09:54:00 genrate the wrappe rusing ruby and compile it back to lisp 09:54:19 The what? 09:54:24 subodh_shivapuja, trolling are we? 09:54:35 A wrapper around what? 09:54:39 ruby has "something" (I forget) that allows you to genrate a wrapper for DB calls if you just show it the dataabase 09:54:52 subodh_shivapuja, ActiveRecord maybe? 09:54:57 yes! 09:55:02 tic.. thanks! 09:55:10 Well I dunno. 09:55:10 tic.. do you think taht will help him here? 09:55:16 that's an ORM. There exists ORM for Lisps too, because Lisp is a practical language. 09:55:21 subodh_shivapuja, no, because that is written in Ruby. 09:55:28 It's not quite SQL queries I'm doing to get it to output the tables. 09:55:30 but he can compile that back to lisp.. right? 09:55:43 subodh_shivapuja, what do you mean with "compile back to lisp"? 09:55:45 More \d nut_data in pgsql giving me info on how the table is made up. 09:56:07 trasnform runy to lisp once he has all the code genreated 09:56:08 Is there an sql query I can do to even get than information? 09:56:11 schme_, make a parser, maybe? or is a one-off operation OK? in which case you could hack up some sed scripts and generate macros. 09:56:12 will it be too much work? 09:56:15 ya ya 09:56:20 schme_, like .schema of sqlite? 09:56:26 Actually sed seems the easiest. 09:56:27 hmm 09:56:31 Lemme see what sqlite does. 09:56:38 (sed or a vim macro) 09:56:39 subodh_shivapuja: Though I don't know ruby. 09:56:47 subodh_shivapuja, that would be stupid. 09:56:51 o 09:57:19 aah .schema gives me something of the same, ya. 09:57:53 schme_, it's inside parens already, so you just have to split the list on commas. :) 09:58:33 Ya. That should be workable. 09:58:52 I did one by hand and got insanly bored ;) 09:59:02 Yeah, no wonder. 09:59:23 it would be like copy pasting 1, 2 .. 10000 09:59:41 Huh? 10:00:04 Well not quite copy pasting. I need to transform it into class definitions 10:00:09 tic, do we have something like ActiveRecord for cl-sql .. lisp? 10:00:19 subodh_shivapuja, I do not know. 10:00:23 What's activerecord? 10:00:28 schme_, an ORM for Ruby. 10:00:58 schme_, you walk the table definitions (that are now lists) and produce class defintions based on that info. would that work? 10:01:46 I'm not sure how I'd get the table definitions. 10:01:54 .schema? 10:02:12 manu3l [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:28 Ya I just don't know how to do that with cl-sql 10:02:40 Oh, I meant doing it manually. 10:02:45 It's what I want though so I don't have to do all these tables by hand. 10:02:48 Oh a. 10:03:02 .schema already gives you Lisp lists. 10:03:07 (sort-of, some munging required) 10:03:25 tic.. DEF-VIEW-CLASS?? 10:03:41 Well what I do is basically this: (def-view-class src-cd () ((src-cd ....) (srccd-desc ...)))) 10:03:51 subodh_shivapuja, speak in full sentences. I don't understand what you're asking. 10:03:53 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:04:00 and (select 'src-cd) returns a list of src-cd objecs. 10:04:02 objects too. 10:04:12 se.. he can get the schema for the tables, then he can DEF-VIEW-CLASS it 10:04:14 I have no idea how ruby does these things. 10:04:17 (nor do I care ;) 10:04:43 subodh_shivapuja: Yes, of course. I just don't want to do it by the hand. Which is why I'm asking for how to automate it. 10:04:55 subodh_shivapuja: And it seems if ruby can do it, one should make lisp do it. 10:05:06 use ruby active record to get the data and seralize the output to lisp 10:05:29 Hmmm 10:05:39 the output that activerecird gives.. plug the values into a DEF-VIEW-CLASS'ed string 10:05:43 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16BBEE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:06:03 and then copy that ito lisp 10:06:18 tic.. would you have suggested that? what do you think? 10:06:33 It seems easier to write some lisp to do it though? 10:06:53 Yes. See if you can make any of the ORMs for Lisp dump the tables for you. 10:07:05 subodh_shivapuja, I don't think anything; I'm currently mentally challenged! 10:07:08 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:08:13 schme_, you can see if you can locate Lisp on a Ladder 10:08:25 Lisp on a Ladder? 10:08:25 it will do what you want 10:08:28 automated 10:08:47 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-50-42.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:09:54 well postmodern does it. 10:10:04 So that's great. 10:12:02 stassats [n=stassats@ppp91-122-109-214.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:12:48 excellent 10:13:47 (mapcar #'list-attribute-types (list-tables)) seems a good starting place ;) 10:13:56 Either way it's much less work than learning ruby. 10:13:58 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:14:39 derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has joined #lisp 10:18:37 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:18:42 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD3A1B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:18:45 kami-` [n=user@p4FD3A1B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:20:58 schme_: http://www.cliki.net/clsql-pg-introspect 10:21:09 -!- creddy_ [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-113-170.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:21:15 "clsql-pg-introspect is a package for introspecting a PostgreSQL database from clsql. Great for quickly defining your own classes based on existing tables." 10:22:13 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Client Quit] 10:25:12 creddy_ [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-113-170.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:26:39 ths [n=ths@X6c8d.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 10:31:47 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:38:41 nice. I add "below x" to the LOOP in krystofs EXP to set the tolerance ? 10:39:06 -!- manu3l [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 10:42:25 fusss: Hey that's brilliant. :) 10:42:48 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD3A1B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:42:53 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A1B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:43:40 -!- ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:44:45 Eleanore [n=a@c-bf70e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:44:58 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 10:47:52 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:49:18 crod [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:49:58 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:50:54 -!- jestocost 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froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 11:15:30 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-076-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:12 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:16:56 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:48 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-239-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:41 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086163.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:22:32 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@92.41.225.72.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:24:28 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-076-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:24:43 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086163.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 11:25:32 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:28:22 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1187f280b5c9e8d5] has joined #lisp 11:30:47 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:30:52 good morning 11:30:58 well, afternoon 11:31:05 hello nikodemus 11:31:06 hi nikodemus. 11:34:44 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483DED1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:48 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-133-184.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:36:16 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 11:39:54 -!- ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:41:08 how's life? 11:41:34 as usual 11:41:51 what about you? 11:43:57 working on cooking up some docs for a few projects 11:44:31 Private projects or professional projects? 11:44:48 the distinction is a bit fuzzy sometimes... 11:44:56 yeah 11:45:22 but i i'm not getting paid for the work, so not strictly professional 11:45:44 I take it those are Lisp-related projects, yes? 11:46:27 oh, sorry: alexandria, osicat, linedit, esrap, and sb-cpu-affinity 11:46:47 That's quite a list there. 11:47:59 now that you've outed yourself as affiliated with osicat 11:48:21 can you bite this troll question and tell me how it differs from cffi-posix? 11:48:23 i've been a bad boy and haven't always done proper docs for my sideline projects. now i'm paying the price looking at the list of things that need to be done 11:48:39 you should really ask luis that question 11:48:43 i need to write reviews of fixnum most useful libraries, etc. 11:49:03 it's good to see esrap in the list. we'll have to provide dsl's to the ministry guys and something with infix notation is desirable there... :) 11:49:14 nikodemus: keep writing those test cases and we wont need docs ;-) 11:49:27 but from my last conversation with him, i got the impression that osicat-posix, aka nix, supersedes cffi-posix 11:49:40 i get that feeling too 11:49:53 but nix is only in the git repo, which is not pointed to from the webpage... 11:49:55 minion: esrap 11:49:55 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``esrap''. 11:50:05 http://random-state.net/files/esrap.lisp 11:50:32 and yes, i also welcome testcases more. maybe a little bird's view, but easy to run tests rule 11:51:26 yeah 11:55:07 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A1B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:55:10 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A1B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:55:37 jao [n=user@224.Red-83-33-176.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:09 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@92.41.225.72.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:46 brb 11:58:07 does anyone else have the impression of more japanese lisp people coming out of the woodwork during last couple of months? 11:58:56 someone wrote a Limp howto in japanese recently 11:59:00 there used to be niimi and a couple of others, but i feel like i've spotted maybe twice as many recently 11:59:30 cool, so we're seeing a japanese lisp reneissance :) 11:59:34 i attribute it to mass exodus from the carry trade 12:01:53 trebor_home pasted "asdf - basic understanding problem ..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69587 12:02:06 *oudeis* esrap documentation microfix: s/choises/choices on line ";;;; (or &rest ordered-choises)" 12:02:19 hello. 12:03:14 i do not get asdf working with my project. what am i doing wrong (basically)? 12:03:35 njsg_ [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 12:03:59 trebor_home: can you paste your asdf definition and backtrace? 12:04:27 i thougt i did already. what is missing in my paste? 12:04:42 ah sorry missed that 12:06:49 first i'd try to remove depends-on if you use serial t (although i don;t know what i'm talking about) 12:07:29 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 12:08:42 "bmp" depends on "percolation", but percolation comes after that, and you use ":serial t" -- if i were asdf i were confused 12:09:16 oudeis: ok, i correct that. 12:10:11 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 12:11:34 trebor_home: did it help? 12:11:35 that's not the problem 12:14:03 somehow trebor is not getting asdf:defsystem there, hence the program error 12:14:59 ah right, it does not expand the macro, thus it thinks it sees a function call 12:15:22 but if i copy-and-paste the .asd, and load-op it, i get a different error 12:15:46 oudeis: there were additional errors (depends on needed a list, and the command needed to be (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'bmp)) i corrected them 12:15:54 the last :depends-on argument is not a list 12:15:59 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:16:05 H4ns2 [n=Hans@p57BBABCD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:16:42 now i get "component "bmp" not found"-error 12:17:13 do you have bmp.lisp in the same directory as bmo-io.asd? 12:17:18 yes 12:18:01 what does you current definition look like? 12:18:22 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:18:24 wait, i'll paste an annotation .... 12:19:52 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:20:36 -!- metawilm [n=willem@78.52.96.220] has quit [] 12:20:44 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA0C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:21:11 -!- creddy_ is now known as CrazyEddy 12:21:29 trebor_home annotated #69587 with "annotation to asdf - basic understanding problem ..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69587#1 12:25:26 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:59 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.105.93] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:03 you're trying to load bmp, not bmp-io, which is what you have the system for 12:27:16 metawilm [n=willem@78.52.96.220] has joined #lisp 12:27:16 3: (SWANK::EVAL-REGION "(asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'bmp)\n") 12:28:34 rename the file to bmp-io.asd, and load-op 'bmp-io -- or rename the defsystem to bmp 12:28:57 for asdf to find your system definition the filename and the defsystem name have to match 12:31:13 oudeis: choices is the uk spelling 12:32:00 like so many non-native european english speakers i'm squarely in the middle of the atlantic when it comes to choice of spelling 12:32:02 nikodemus: thank you very much, you helped me a lot (in solving the problem, but much more in getting a little more glue about asdf) 12:32:28 (it is working) 12:32:47 UK spellings are commontly thought at school, but one tends to see more US english written in daily life -- so there is leakage 12:32:53 commonly, even 12:33:37 oudeis: oops sorry 12:33:38 -!- ciscbrain [n=eugen@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:34:02 i misread your s// -- got it just reversed 12:35:15 right, choises is nonsense -- i'll just shut up and find more coffee 12:36:06 good idea; the coffee that is. 12:37:29 kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:31 choizes 12:38:14 jestocost [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:38:58 metawilm_ [n=willem@e179011028.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:39:31 -!- crod [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:42:59 -!- _8david [n=user@pD9541009.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:43:26 -!- jao [n=user@224.Red-83-33-176.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:44:13 jao [n=user@72.Red-79-155-244.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:19 metawilm__ [n=willem@e179041205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:54:51 -!- metawilm [n=willem@78.52.96.220] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:56:57 an excellent defence of your choise 12:57:06 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:57:35 tomppa [n=seena@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has joined #lisp 12:57:35 jestocost [n=cmell@p4122-ipbf5403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:57:54 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086163.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:59:32 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-133-184.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:04:04 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:08:06 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:10:17 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-133-184.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:10:43 -!- metawilm_ [n=willem@e179011028.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:09 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-133-184.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Client Quit] 13:14:03 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:14:15 hi Athas 13:14:16 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:18:10 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0519.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:21:39 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:21:59 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.4] has joined #lisp 13:22:21 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1187f280b5c9e8d5] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:28:12 Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:28:15 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:30:01 crod [n=cmell@p4186-ipbf4108marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:30:51 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@p4122-ipbf5403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:16 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-218-230.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:35:17 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 13:35:43 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D967.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:53 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1C9BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:40:03 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:54 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c-bf70e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 13:44:09 Eleanore [n=a@c-bf70e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:44:11 kenxo [n=kentilto@ool-18bb7ae5.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:24 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 13:45:18 Anybody in here know Javascript? 13:45:26 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:45 kenxo: I think you're in the wrong channel ;) 13:45:48 Some probably do, but if it's not directly Lisp-related, I think you'll get a better answer in #javascript. 13:46:03 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:46:08 Yeah, I was just testing, never IRCed before 13:46:13 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:29 kenxo, type /join #javascript 13:46:32 what time is it GMT, 1345 ? 13:46:53 There was no life on the Dojo forum so I came over here to see if the thing was even working. 13:47:31 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4720B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 13:47:39 manic12, 14:47 in CST. 13:47:52 tic, ok, will do. The Dojo site specified #dojo tho 13:47:54 kenxo, this is still about another programming language. 13:48:02 #dojo, sure. but not #lisp? 13:48:12 Lispers know everything 13:48:12 manic12: 1348 now 13:48:23 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 13:48:26 kenxo: But what they know that isn't lisp is discussed elsewhere. 13:48:35 Oh, it's you! Welcome, friend. 13:48:48 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:48:51 Hey, bro. 13:49:00 As Acting Yobbin-in-Chief, Morning Shift, enjoy your stay. 13:49:05 yobbo, rather 13:49:12 There is no community as alive as Lisp 13:49:16 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:49:17 Ohh! 13:49:43 I've been spotted, better get my *ss outtahere 13:49:43 We have a royalty onboard. 13:50:09 About to get kicked for going OT :) 13:50:19 kenxo, so it's Algebra-2.0 these days? 13:51:09 I wish. Working for someone else to stay afloat. 13:51:17 Bummer. Any fun, though? 13:51:56 The good thing is they asked me to do Web2.0 so I am getting paid to learn that, then I take Algebra to the web. 13:52:00 Hello kenxo. I didn't think I would see you in #lisp. 13:52:24 kenxo: lisp for web stuff is fun 13:52:36 Hey, beach. I just needed a group I knew would be alive to see if I had IRC working 13:52:57 kenxo: how did you know #lisp would be alive? :) 13:52:58 #lisp: the new misc.test. Hi. 13:53:03 You all get an A 13:53:36 Shouldn't you guys in the US be sleeping now? 13:53:54 tic: only the westerners 13:53:58 (not that I don't want you here or anything, but it's either awfully late or awfully early) 13:54:12 it's 9:00 on the east coast 13:54:14 Isn't about 6 am or so in the states? 13:54:14 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:54:30 sellout, alright, more reasonable. 13:54:46 (unless you're schme or tic and wake up at 4 or 6, respectively) 13:54:48 schme_: We're so awesome, we've got like five time zones. 13:55:27 I actually go to bed around 11am, sleep till 4, back in bed at 7, up at 11, then work all night. 13:55:34 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@61.149.75.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:55:37 it's 8 am here 13:55:49 sellout: You crazy foreigners! 13:55:57 I got my answer on #dojo!!! 13:56:38 kenxo: Why the 3 hrs awake between 4 and 7 ? 13:57:13 I think the solar wind is a soporific or something, can't keep my eyes open when the sun is up. 13:57:23 Hehehe :) 13:57:28 Not only is it 9:00 on the east coast, but we all think that it's 10:00. 13:57:44 Say what? 13:57:53 tic: DST 13:57:57 tic: They go to "vintertid" later in the year than normal people. 13:58:06 I see. We got rid of that a week ago. 13:58:21 But then it's winter like 10 months of the year around here... 13:58:30 Yep, tic. Some brain-damaged politician had the brilliant idea of making this darn country do it differently from the rest of the world last year! 13:58:51 Riastradh, ahh! I remember now. That must've been quite expensive to change. 13:58:54 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:03 That sounds a bit dumb. 13:59:16 I bet a lot of IT consultants made business from it ;) 13:59:30 "brain-damaged politician", is that like "red stop sign" 13:59:31 ...in which case, it's actually good? 13:59:33 I still want to abolish daylight savings time and time zones altogether. 13:59:36 manic12, point. 13:59:39 manic12, no, more like a tautology 13:59:44 "hot fire" 13:59:44 Oh. 14:00:04 Riastradh, let's all do the @NNN time 14:00:09 Damn, that answer I got over on #dojo is going to scroll off... 14:00:14 i still don't understand how china can have only 1 tz 14:00:20 Riastradh: I'm with you. 14:00:30 JuanDaugherty: It's the Mao-effect. 14:00:31 Urgh, tic, no... We already have a perfectly good global time: UTC. 14:00:33 Riastradh: I have a clock on my wall that shows local solar time. 14:00:44 schme_, i guess 14:00:51 (and UTC on an inner dial) 14:00:51 We also have a perfectly good local time: the position of the sun in the sky. 14:01:05 *sellout* high fives Riastradh 14:01:07 JuanDaugherty: It's like the Soviet Union under Stalin. They can have anything. 14:01:30 Seems easier with one time zone. 14:01:41 i'm pretty sure the USSR had many tz's 14:01:49 JuanDaugherty: Nope. 14:01:56 Probably, but had they decided not to they wouldn't. 14:02:13 Ok. Having IRC visible at the same time as hacking code == bad idea. 14:02:18 JuanDaugherty: One time zone so that they only needed one timetable for the trans-siberian railroad 14:02:22 schme_, shoo! 14:03:02 any russians in channel to verify that? 14:03:18 Hi, my name is Riastradh, and I...I hack Lisp! 14:03:48 sellout: in soviet russia, time zones you? 14:03:49 Riastradh: You seem to be the exception, judging from the current discussion. 14:03:53 Riastradh, we have 12-step program for that. 14:04:03 JuanDaugherty: China _still_ only has a single time zone. 14:04:31 sellout, yes I know. 14:04:35 (instead of the four that it covers) 14:04:45 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:05:08 doesn't "hack" carry connotations of a lack of elegance and style that are contrary to the lisp philosophy/ethos/culture? 14:05:13 beach, indeed... *cough* 14:05:42 JuanDaugherty, I think it carries the connotation of "getting things done" 14:06:29 yes, "pragmatism", an epitet in some circles, badge of honor in others. 14:06:47 `Hack' has a meaning that transcends description by words and encompasses both dirtiness and elegance. But more to the point, this channel is about Lisp, and, unfortunately, I'm not hacking Lisp right now, so I'll quiet up. 14:08:00 as a native English speaker I definitely don't associate "hack" and "elegance" 14:08:12 rather I would consider them antithetical 14:08:32 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-16eeb7acbd5cc7bc] has joined #lisp 14:08:39 the hard won elegance results in an apparent simplicity and ease of use 14:09:53 i can almost see paul graham's hand on the strings 14:10:03 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:10:21 I associate hask with productivity. 14:10:27 hack, that is. 14:10:41 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-184-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:10:49 it doesn't mean low quality, or rushed, nor inelegance. 14:11:29 yes words get slurred meanings when they cross linguistic lines 14:11:53 or even just over time 14:12:30 nonetheless, "hack" carries certain connotations in English independent even of computers 14:12:40 nikodemus pasted "the real dictionary says..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69589 14:13:05 What's the FORMAT thing to make stuff upcase again? 14:13:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:13:09 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:13:11 ~( 14:13:35 ~( is downcase 14:13:39 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:44 I think naked ~( downcases and ~( upcases, but I don't remember 14:13:44 that's not just a sad Xach with a snotty nose, it's close to the answer 14:14:05 clhs: ~( 14:14:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cha.htm 14:14:20 :@ is that something. 14:14:21 I have been struggling to use Elephant. When I just follow the tutorial, I get this error message http://paste.lisp.org/display/69588 Can anybody teach me why this happen? 14:14:45 Does there happen to be a good FORMAT reference or cheat sheet? 14:14:47 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:14:59 schme_: the spec is a decent reference 14:15:17 schme_: i don't know how well the quick reference at clqr.berlios.de covers format, maybe it's good 14:15:34 Hmm.. I seem to remember the format stuff in the hyperspec was shit :) 14:15:36 oh well! 14:15:48 well, it's the reference. 14:15:51 the meaning of hack which I associate with software development would be "He hacked through that forest like he was born with the machete in his hand" 14:15:53 everything else is interpreting it. 14:17:09 the floating point stuff is at least somewhat challenging, though. meaning: gives me a headache and a desire to think about something else 14:17:23 ooh I check Formatted Output 14:17:24 great. 14:18:26 -!- crod [n=cmell@p4186-ipbf4108marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:18:39 crod [n=cmell@p4186-ipbf4108marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:22:29 Anyone using WebActions/AllegroServe? 14:22:52 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:22:52 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 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code is still issuing a style warning when compiling :| 14:36:06 -!- tomppa [n=seena@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:36:53 Scenario: CLIM-app, 3 panes. I am interested in placing a menu bar in each pane. Is this a normal way to do things? Is it doable without breaking my sanity? 14:37:07 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:09 (without any CLIM knowledge): depends on your value of sanity 14:38:52 Xach: do you mind if i steal bits of your zs3 style.css? 14:40:12 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:40:55 Try Dojo, Lisp, and OpenAIR. 14:42:14 The timezone discussion gave me an idea for a new Tilton's Law of Programming. I shall bless #lisp with its unveiling. 14:42:41 If you are sleeping at night you are not working hard. 14:43:22 subodh_shivapuja [i=c142c881@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3a4b332df7da3ab2] has joined #lisp 14:43:26 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:43:36 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:44:03 kenxo: I don't get it. 14:45:01 jestocost [n=cmell@p4186-ipbf4108marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:45:08 kenxo: does that mean that hard work means longer hours? 14:45:17 are you familiar with Parkinson's Law? 14:45:26 Creative people working hard always end up working overnight, sleeping during the day. Too engaged to go to bed when they should, and they get more done when there are no distractions. 14:45:40 kenxo: that's not true though ? 14:45:51 No, just that we scroll the day twelve hours. 14:45:53 I like this one: If you get up after 4 am then you are not working hard. 14:46:09 Hey, I knew one other person who did the same. It's a law. 14:46:11 heh 14:46:27 I feel illegal :( 14:46:30 I work plenty hard, and the reason I rise early is precisely because nobody else is in the office when I get there 14:46:34 And he was just a writer. 14:46:35 because they're all asleep (: 14:46:43 -!- crod [n=cmell@p4186-ipbf4108marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:46:48 Yes, early AM also rocks. 14:46:57 Best time of the day. 14:47:08 indeed 14:47:35 I go to bed when the garbage trucks pull up. 14:47:49 When's that? 14:47:52 where "rise early" means something like 8am. tee hee 14:47:53 I get the early AM too. 14:48:02 7am 14:48:04 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:06 *schme_* aims for the bed at 8pm 14:48:22 Generally I night owl and stay up 'til 9 ;) 14:48:57 Tilton's Laws do not have to be accurate, they just have to be pithy. 14:49:12 -!- subodh_shivapuja [i=c142c881@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3a4b332df7da3ab2] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 14:49:14 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:49:14 schme_: Wow! How do you make it? 14:49:43 beach: By being fuck tired all day from sleep deprivation :) 14:49:50 heh 14:50:28 Anyway. Please you guys and gals. I am trying to write some code here, can you just not say anything distracting for an hour or so :) 14:50:48 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:54 schme_: deal! 14:51:32 beach: You tend to know clim stuff it seems. Is there an easy way to put a menubar in each of my 3 panes? 14:51:35 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:51:38 Or is it just dumb? 14:51:48 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:52:15 schme_: that ought to be possible, but not as easiliy as with :menu-bar t as for the application frame. 14:52:29 Hmmm. 14:52:37 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:41 Well ok. Maybe someday. 14:52:52 schme_: the menu bar is just another pane, perhaps even a gadget. 14:53:00 Oh ok. 14:53:04 That's cool. 14:53:28 I was thinking it was some special thing. I guess there are no special things. 14:53:58 schme_: there could be, but I don't think thats one of them :) 14:54:31 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:56:44 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:56:57 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:17 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:18 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:00:00 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:02:21 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 15:04:55 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 15:06:45 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:11:24 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:21 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:14:09 I still have not tracked down the source of the undefined reader style warning in sbcl 15:14:24 allegro doesn't issue any warnings 15:14:48 all this after I moved the lambdas out of their slot specs 15:15:09 maybe if i stand on my head and spin 15:16:19 manic12: Do you have a lisppaste for that? 15:17:22 um, yeah there is one from last night: 69574 15:17:35 yeah, I found it in the logs 15:17:54 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:49 I thought for sure if I moved the lambdas out of the ensure class so that they would be compiled after the slots exist...hrm, maybe, nah 15:19:56 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 15:20:10 manic12: Sorry, don't know how to help. 15:20:33 it's ok, thanks though 15:22:30 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:23:31 I should start talking about baseball, then the sbcl compiler guys will come out of the woodwork 15:23:31 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 15:23:48 I wonder how Google books can get away with putting copyrighted material online. I just found a large part of the book "The Inmates are Running the Asylym" by Alan Cooper on Google books. 15:24:20 beach: There was something in the news recently about how they acquired the rights to do that. 15:24:25 beach: Special deal with publishers. 15:24:31 Ah, OK. 15:24:31 Also, hordes of lawyers. 15:26:37 manic12: I think you more need one of the PCL guys, not the compiler guys (although I wouldn't be surprised if there was a subset relation there...) 15:26:58 beach: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/oct/28/googlethemedia-digitalmedia 15:27:29 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:28:20 my cat always wants to assist with hard programming problems 15:28:33 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [] 15:29:01 locklace: Very interesting! Thanks! 15:29:03 usually makes the problem more difficult 15:29:33 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:26 nyef: I think I need to ask someone in that subset 15:33:43 dkcl` [n=dkcl@39.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:33:50 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:36:48 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:37:40 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 15:37:49 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:39:16 StasNev [n=wizard@90.150.125.68] has joined #lisp 15:40:28 -!- dkcl` [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:42:06 -!- jao [n=user@72.Red-79-155-244.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:44 jao [n=user@72.Red-79-155-244.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:28 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 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has joined #lisp 17:26:29 -!- dkcl [n=user@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:27:24 dkcl [n=dkcl@39.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:29:40 -!- lispm_ [n=joswig@g224121207.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 17:30:03 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-144.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:31:40 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:56 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 17:32:18 -!- drdo````` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:38:12 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8d448ffe74c09604] has joined #lisp 17:42:55 -!- segv_ is now known as segv 17:43:14 Can someone explain to me roughly the algorithm for converting from an arbitrary precision rational to a float? 17:44:42 Or give me a pointer to wherever that algorithm is implemented in the SBCL source? 17:45:32 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:05 Ah, found it. 17:46:09 :D 17:46:36 Though if anyone were inclined to describe the algorithm in small words I can understand, that'd be cool too. 17:47:45 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:52 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb9686.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:48:01 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:11 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb9686.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 17:49:46 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:50:02 Archangel_13 [n=kevin@216-197-159-94.estv.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca] has joined #lisp 17:50:15 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:48 gigamonk`: maybe this is of some help: http://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/03-10-092 17:51:39 gigamonk`: "Early civilizations had no concept of zero" 17:53:50 whereas in this enlightened age, not only do we have zero, we also have negative zero! 17:54:00 we do? 17:54:00 :-) 17:54:23 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:54:26 tic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-0 17:55:44 Heh. 17:56:17 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:56:37 (-0)+(-0)=(-0) interesting. 17:56:42 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:56 (sqrt -0) => -0 is more interesting. 17:58:34 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:59:16 as long as 0 == -0 ... 17:59:18 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:30 pstickne: (eql 0.0 -0.0) => nil 17:59:35 :( 18:00:03 but they are = 18:00:59 pstickne: consider also (eql 0 0d0) => nil 18:01:27 make sense 18:01:35 0.0 and -0.0 are different "objects" 18:01:59 And (equalp 0.0 -0.0) => T 18:02:03 not on every lisp 18:02:13 stassats: fair enough. 18:02:21 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:02:37 On lisps where (eql 0.0 -0.0) => nil they are. ;-) 18:03:29 -!- vy [n=user@88.231.235.151] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:03:32 prxq [n=mommer@X9ca7.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 18:05:48 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:05:48 *chandler* is looking forward to gigamonk`'s next book, "Practical Tautology" 18:06:28 subtitle: "Practical Tautologies are Practical" 18:07:06 "Dead Sexy Books Are Dead Sexy" 18:08:22 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:08:39 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:09:16 *ushdf* lost track of what was happening 18:11:19 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:12:15 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 18:15:47 -!- dialtone1 [n=dialtone@24.143.65.167] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:33 tic: Yes. I've worked a bit on the nutrition database displaying. 18:16:57 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:51 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:24:33 schme_, funny, friend of mine has written just such an app but in Python. Seems like people's favourite app 18:25:25 That's cool. There's a distinct need too. I have been looking around at other free and open alternatives and they all blow big chunks. 18:25:32 -!- kami-``` [n=user@p4FD3A1B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:25:36 kami-```` [n=user@p4FD3A1B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:25:44 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 18:25:52 I was actually initially planning to do it in another language but that would have me use gtk or wxwidgets.. and they seem very complicated to use. 18:28:35 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-78-34-218-230.netcologne.de] has quit [] 18:29:06 -!- ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:33:11 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 18:34:45 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:42:54 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 18:43:44 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:44:55 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 18:47:17 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:10 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 18:48:19 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 18:48:58 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:49:11 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:54:31 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has joined #lisp 18:54:53 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has quit [Client Quit] 18:57:08 I like "Department of Tautological Pleonasms and Redundancies Department" 18:57:46 (and good evening everyone) 18:58:50 hi beach 18:59:02 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 18:59:13 beach, :-) 19:00:00 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:00:59 prxq: What Lisp-related things are you working on these days? 19:04:54 English is a great language for such jokes, but French is unbeatable for puns because of its many-to-one relationship between spelling and pronunciation. 19:05:04 xreyes_ [n=xreyes@8.84-48-175.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:05:26 -!- xreyes [n=xreyes@8.84-48-175.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:05:36 I think Swedish has it reversed, no? 19:07:13 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:07:15 Possibly. Swedish is just weird because of its heritage from Scandinavian, German, French, and (recently) English. 19:07:51 -!- lieven_ [n=lieven@ip-213-49-240-62.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:02 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:23 ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.161.178] has joined #lisp 19:08:32 tic: A window is called a "window" in English, a "vindue" (spelling might be wrong) in Danish and Norwegian, and a "fönster" in Swedish. 19:08:47 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:08:54 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 19:09:07 beach: fenster in deutsch 19:09:19 ebzzry [n=rmm@115.147.100.214] has joined #lisp 19:09:19 stassats: I know German, yes. 19:09:32 stassats: I can even speak it when I am forced to. 19:09:54 stassats: "fenêtre" in French. 19:10:18 (which I speak even if I am not forced to). 19:10:30 beach: maybe me too, but i haven't done that for a long time 19:10:34 is common-lisp.net cvs working? i keep getting timeout errors trying to install slime with clbuild 19:10:47 stassats: Which one? 19:11:05 beach: speaking in German 19:11:20 stassats: I see, yes. 19:13:09 tic: Once when I went to visit my family, they had changed the name of "Burlövs Centrum" to "Burlövs Centre", and I just expected the following time to see "Cage Leaf Center". 19:13:38 [internal joke for those who know some Swedish] 19:14:47 gilberth [n=gilbert@c200186.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 19:15:09 Hey, gilberth! 19:15:15 hi there 19:15:25 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:15:26 I heard rumors of the great Hamburg Lisp meeting! 19:15:39 Does anyone know whether slime-presentation-current-input (slime/contrib/slime-presentations.el) ignores until-point-p argument for some good reason? 19:16:17 well, lispm's talk gave a good CLIM overview for the crowd. 19:16:39 gilberth: and apparently, you were helpful when it came to answering questions. 19:16:59 gilberth: (about McCLIM I take it) 19:17:02 at least when it came to mcclim, yes. 19:17:26 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:47 gilberth: The other day, I started rewriting the code for output recording, but I didn't get very far, at least not yet. 19:18:33 want's the problem? 19:19:01 gilberth: The main idea would be to *not* inherit from rectangle so that client code that defines its own output records will still work. 19:19:04 beach, burlöv: hehe :) 19:19:20 beach, I was more thinking of words like "banan" and "tomten" 19:19:26 gilberth: And also to make incremental redisplay work reasonably fast. 19:19:31 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 19:19:35 Greetings! 19:19:44 hello tmh 19:19:54 tic: what about them? 19:19:55 Hey beach 19:20:29 beach, regarding the one-spelling-many-pronounciation. 19:20:45 tic: sure, yes. 19:21:11 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F653.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:21:18 tic: "bildrulle" 19:21:24 beach: feel free to borrow from http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim/output-record.lisp , which is a reimplementation from scratch. 19:21:32 beach, haha, good example. 19:21:33 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-239-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:42 gilberth: why is it not committed? 19:21:55 because it would break everything else? 19:22:29 mcclim conflates output records with rectangles and the output record positition with the upper left of the bounding box, this is assumption is all over the remaining code. 19:22:31 gilberth: Oh! Yes, we want to avoid that! But I'll look into your code rather than re-inventing the wheel. 19:22:38 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Success] 19:22:46 it works with relative coordinates, iirc 19:22:55 gilberth: NEAT! 19:23:05 and recompute-extent-for-changed-child was very carefully crafted 19:23:06 gilberth: what does it break? 19:23:08 if you're rewriting output recording, fix the bogus bounding rectangle for empty output records while you're at it :) 19:23:12 I'm getting a note in SBCL 1.0.20, "The first argument (in keyword position) is not a constant." This is not a problem, I'm providing the keyword to the function based on a symbol that changes. Is this note trying to tell me something, though? 19:23:22 gilberth: it can't possibly break anything of importance 19:23:27 hefner: done 19:23:42 all of my apps are already basically broken anyway 19:23:42 *beach* agrees with Krystof 19:23:50 prolog syntax, tablature 19:24:13 well, may i remind you, that i have mcclim application which are in real world use. 19:24:17 beach: I write numerics stuff with it. Research codes. And compute and draw plans for model aircraft, although that's in a very early stage. 19:24:39 prxq: impressive! 19:25:06 gilberth: well, so do I, but they're using three-year-old mcclim as well as three-year-old versions of my code 19:25:19 Krystof: Same here. 19:25:19 gilberth: I think you should seriously consider a commit. But if you like, I'll check out your code first. 19:25:43 tmh: it's either "you may have made a mistake" or "we can't optimize this", I forget which 19:25:52 beach: beware the license, I won't stick a LGPL license to the code, you do that then. 19:26:01 tmh: the latter if you're calling make-instance 19:26:05 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@115.147.100.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:16 mcclim is lgpl anyway, isn't it? 19:26:17 kpreid: thanks, I was thinking maybe it was also telling me "This should be a macro." 19:26:18 gilberth: the license is a minor problem. 19:26:34 Krystof: it is, yes. 19:26:47 gilberth: Stuff like this could show that work is being done on McCLIM. 19:26:59 well, MITish -> LGPL is ok, the other way not. 19:27:22 gilberth: The author can do whatever he or she wants. 19:27:38 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:27:42 well, what happens, if i am not the only author anymore? 19:27:51 gilberth: point! 19:29:19 gilberth: you didn't tell me what it breaks (but perhaps you came here for an entirely different reason). 19:29:30 maybe mcclim would benefit from an 'unstable' branch (or a 'stable' branch, depending on your opinion of the current cvs head) 19:30:48 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:31:52 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:11 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-78-62.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 19:32:53 drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:33:04 hefner: the current cvs head is "stable" in that it doesn't change very much. 19:33:30 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:33:35 btw, i believe the scrollbars should be adjusted at recompute-extent-for-changed-child on the output history. 19:33:59 that's the correct reading of the spec, yeah 19:34:04 gilberth: Interesting idea. I thought about doing it at the very end of the command loop. 19:34:07 I think it'd be really slow 19:34:21 mcclim could benefit from a "stable" branch for a change ;) 19:35:00 unless you wrap every batch of drawing operations with changing-space-requirements or something 19:35:04 Do I have any volunteers? 19:35:44 for what? 19:36:04 hefner: managing a "stable" branch. 19:36:34 (depending on the definition of "stable" we choose) 19:36:47 beach: you can just have a "stable" branch that you only update every so often, based on changes from unstable. 19:36:56 I don't think it necessarily requires any maintenance at all. 19:37:17 sykopomp: I take it you are the one? Congratulations! 19:38:00 beach: is it really that much work to mark a revision and merge it into stable? 19:38:03 milanj [n=milan@212.200.217.28] has joined #lisp 19:38:22 sykopomp: I don't know. We haven't defined "stable" yet. 19:38:29 that's true 19:38:35 sykopomp: well, that implies that the unstable branch has points of stability ... 19:39:12 sykopomp: In which case you don't need a branch, just a STABLE tag. 19:39:27 sellout: depending on how you develop stuff, this is certainly possible 19:40:06 specially if you're one of those crazy branchers that spawns tons of branches for various changes. 19:40:22 ideally, you want a grumpy user who writes/maintains a reasonably big application 19:40:42 cmm: don't look at me 19:41:09 gilberth: those who are happy to deploy seriously old code don't count, I guess :) 19:41:38 (fdo "happy" that I have no idea about, though) 19:41:44 old? as in cmucl 18e? 19:42:23 cmucl? 19:42:44 gilberth: Great to see you back, but my wife just came back after a month abroad, so I am going to vanish and spend some time with her, rather than with you guys for a while. 19:42:46 cmucl is a lisp implementation. 19:43:00 beach, have fun! 19:43:01 minion: tell cmm about cmucl 19:43:02 cmm: look at cmucl: CMUCL is a high-performance, free (mostly Public Domain) Common Lisp implementation that aims towards ANSI compatibility and runs on a number of Unix platforms - including Linux/ix86, Linux/Alpha, FreeBSD/ix86, NetBSD/ix86, OpenBSD/ix86, Solaris/SPARC, HP-UX/HPPA, and IRIX/MIPS - though not all of these ports are current. http://www.cliki.net/cmucl 19:43:09 tic: thanks! 19:43:21 gilberth: I know, it was a bad attempt at a joke, sorry 19:43:40 Grmbl, who turned down the heat in here... *mutters* 19:43:46 cmm: the bad attempt was mine to continue on that joke. 19:44:25 gilberth: before I leave, can I assume there was nothing particular you wanted to talk to me about? 19:44:53 beach: No, I just wanted to hang around. Have fun tonight! 19:45:02 gilberth: OK, take care! 19:45:31 gilberth: my actual point was that if you don't have people who have sizeable applications that they want to keep current wrt McCLIM (presumably because they have actual end users who want more stability/compatibility/flashiness/etc), then there's no point in having a stable branch 19:46:43 cmm, I disagree. It's always good to have checkpoints that you know works, so you don't have to figure out if your app is buggy or if it's an underlying library. Now, you might not have to do feature branches and stuff, but continuous releases and tagging seems like a good idea in general. 19:46:57 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.7.37.26] has joined #lisp 19:47:02 cmm: Well there is a stable branch on the file server at our company, but it is so ridiculously it won't be useful in the general sense. 19:47:19 s/ridiculously/ridiculously old/ 19:47:26 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb9686.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 19:47:45 to start with, cvs head often doesn't compile with cmucl. 19:47:49 tic: but see, if you don't _need_ to update the library, then you don't need to. just stick with whatever version happened to work for you 19:47:57 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:48:07 cmm, how about performance improvements or fixes to known bugs? 19:48:35 tic: if those things matter, then you are not disagreeing with me :) 19:49:30 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:49:39 cmm, heh, that might very well be the case. To me it sounded like releases don't really matter. 19:49:58 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:50:33 tic: not when the user audience and the developer audience overlap to the point of near sameness :) 19:51:10 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:24 cmm, how about us lazy developers that occasionally just want to get stuff done? 19:51:39 (but now I'm making a perhaps too general point) 19:51:50 tic: I mean specifically McCLIM developers 19:51:56 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:51:59 mcclim releases are always either "we haven't done a release in a year, we'd better do one for appearances" or "I added this neat feature, time for a release" 19:52:38 which seems absolutely sane to me, not that anybody asks 19:52:54 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:04 Well, in general i think that's fine. OTOH that is exactly the reason I deploy a 3 years old version. 19:53:24 malu__ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb9686.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 19:54:01 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-78-62.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Operation timed out] 19:55:16 then again, sbcl seems to manage just fine without having a separate stable branch. 19:55:57 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:02 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 19:56:08 it helps to know that stuff you check in has to work (at least as well as what was there before) by the end of the month 19:56:10 looking around, the free software projects that _do_ have stable branches tend to be libraries that need to keep binary compatibility 19:56:12 you can make sure only to check in stuff that works. or check in everything. the former leads to less collaboration, the latter leads to an unknown state of the app between releases. 19:56:44 chandler, true. 19:56:52 any PCL ppl in the house? 19:57:03 SLIME annoys me for not having a stable branch, because CVS HEAD is not necessarily stable. 19:57:11 manic12_: don't ask to ask, just ask 19:57:16 oh god, i agree 19:57:30 slime has too many moving targets to chase 19:57:32 chandler: I already have 19:58:02 mcclim is, I think, expected to work out of cvs at any given time, which is why I suggested some unstable branch with respect to rewriting output recording or other components which are bound to break user code 19:58:09 I have spent six hours making slime work with first clojure, then win32 sbcl 19:58:21 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-39-177.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:44 chandler: are you a PCL person? 19:58:56 manic12_: Why do you want a PCL person? 19:59:00 Also, which PCL? 19:59:05 sb-pcl 19:59:26 paste 69574 19:59:36 minion: paste 69574 19:59:36 Paste number 69574: "reader not known yet" by manic12 in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/69574 20:00:09 chris2_ [n=chris@ppp-88-217-78-62.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 20:00:40 -!- kami-```` [n=user@p4FD3A1B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:00:53 I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to do, and the description of your problem seems incomplete 20:01:09 ebzzry [n=rmm@115.147.100.214] has joined #lisp 20:01:11 I don't know why you'd put a function to compile inside the slot specs, instead of just binding it aroudn the defclass form 20:01:52 so that it is an extension to defclass if one wishes to do it that way 20:03:22 I have no idea what that means. 20:04:28 are you interested in having me explain? 20:05:38 If you can explain it so I can understand it, sure. You probably won't get any help if you don't anyway. 20:06:28 are you familiar with ICAD? (the flavors-based knowledge based engineering system) 20:06:45 No. 20:06:45 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb9686.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:08:29 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:08:36 -!- Archangel_13 [n=kevin@216-197-159-94.estv.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 20:09:15 imagine Cells but with lazy evaluation 20:09:33 -!- chris2_ [n=chris@ppp-88-217-78-62.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:09:44 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb9686.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:10:08 If you want help for an error you're getting from SBCL, you're best off explaining it without reference to a number of new object system abstractions. 20:10:27 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:11:02 If you can't succinctly explain what you're doing that's causing the problem, or reduce it to a pure-CLOS/MOP test case, I'm inclined to think that you shouldn't be writing new abstractions. 20:11:11 adhoc was initially written in 2002 and icad is from about 1984 if not earlier 20:11:19 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:11:28 "new" as in "I don't know this" 20:11:40 As NBC used to say about their summer reruns, it's new to me! 20:12:53 I'm not sure I can replicate it without at least half the code I'm already using 20:13:22 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 20:13:37 I find that somewhat hard to believe. 20:13:54 it's a pretty small program 20:14:04 manic12_: it's your loss. 20:14:48 pkhuong: explain 20:15:09 pkhuong: Do you know if binaries built on 7.0-RELEASE will work on previous versions (and if so, how far back)? 20:15:44 chandler: I'm just a user! sa2c would know for sure. 20:15:51 OK. 20:15:57 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:15:58 What did you build the 64-bit binary on? 20:16:28 chandler, if FreeBSD is anything like NetBSD, probably not. On the other hand, binaries built on 6.x are likely to run on other 6.x and on 7.x. 20:16:34 7.0-RELEASE-p1 20:17:21 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:28 Riastradh: OK. I'll download 6.4-RELEASE then. It's for a virtual machine that will just build SBCL, so I don't need to have latest-and-greatest. 20:18:05 Riastradh: Yesterday you mentioned building on NetBSD/PPC. Do you actually own that machine? If so, is there any chance I could convince you to give me an account as an alternative to me asking you every month for a new build? 20:19:13 Whoops. I thought 6.4 was supposed to be released already. 20:20:21 I do own that machine, so there is a chance I could give you an account. It's a laptop, so it won't be on or accessible all the time, but I'll consider it. I have never prepared a binary distribution (except as a NetBSD binary package from pkgsrc, which is different), only built and installed source distributions. What does it entail? 20:20:25 either allegro should be producing the same warning or sbcl shouldn't 20:20:47 manic12_: Nonsense. 20:21:00 manic12_: huh? it's a style warning. They ``should'' nothing. 20:21:09 Riastradh: Oh, OK. 20:21:30 gonzojive: ZS3 has been out for a while now 20:21:40 people who may use this may want to know why it does it 20:22:41 let me rephrase: I'm wondering what I am doing to make it issue that warning 20:24:15 chandler pasted "building a SBCL binary distribution" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69598 20:24:55 chandler: while you're at it, the server needs a kick. 20:25:04 "the server"? 20:25:17 the lisppaste server, sorry (: 20:25:18 What does this mean: "rationalize assumes that the float is accurate only to the precision of the floating-point representation." 20:25:38 I'm not sure whether I'm not understanding "floating-point representation" or "precision of" 20:26:02 pkhuong: I think it's just slow. There's a ton of CPU activity going on right now. 20:26:29 Oh, it's stopped now, and things are working again. 20:26:48 Riastradh: Anyway, see that paste. 20:27:53 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:27:56 (also, don't *actually* run that first line as I wrote it, unless you want to watch the tar file fly by on your terminal :-) 20:28:07 chandler, OK, that looks pretty straightforward. 20:28:11 (Hah, yes...) 20:28:44 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 20:29:08 drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:29:12 gigamonk`: I believe that means that rationalize might return any number, that when converted back turns to the same floating point number. Or put otherwise: suppose for sake of argument you had decimal floats with just one digit. (rationalize 0.3) might as well return 1/3 instead of 3/10. 20:29:17 Anyway, I'm going out now, but if you let me know where to find the binary I'll snarf and upload it later. 20:29:36 chandler, I sha'n't get to it until tomorrow, probably; right now I'm over a hundred miles away from that machine (but shall shortly return to it). 20:29:48 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 20:29:48 Oh, ok! 20:30:11 Otherwise, I think this is one of the targets I identified as being possible to build for using an emulator, so I may give that a try too. 20:30:15 gilberth: so is RATIONALIZE somehow cheaper to compute than RATIONAL? 20:30:42 Possibly. Qemu's PowerPC support is a little sketchy at the moment, though, and I'm not aware of any other usable PowerPC virtual machine out there. 20:30:43 I've managed to write my own version of RATIONAL based on INTEGER-DECODE-FLOAT but haven't been able to wrap my head around what RATIONALIZE would do. 20:31:02 gigamonk`: my guess would be the reverse would be true. 20:31:08 Riastradh: The NetBSD folks claim that GXEmul works. 20:31:30 See http://www.netbsd.org/ports/emulators.html 20:31:49 gilberth: in which case, RATIONALIZE must be useful in some situation where RATIONAL just won't do. I'm trying to imagine what that would be. 20:31:55 gigamonk`: I always had the impression that rationalize is supposed to return a "neat" result. 20:32:21 Huh. I had not heard of GXEmul before. 20:32:36 giamonk': compare (rational (coerce 1/3 'single-float)) with (rationalize (coerce 1/3 'single-float)) 20:33:08 giamonk': in cmucl it gives me 11184811/33554432 versus 1/3. 20:33:19 Yes. I see the same in SBCL. 20:33:29 That's curious -- RATIONALIZE is unary in Common Lisp? 20:33:47 Er, actually that's probably Allegro on this machine. 20:34:02 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-110-251.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:34:36 Riastradh: yes. What other arguments are you imagining it taking? 20:34:41 Scheme's RATIONALIZE is binary; its second argument is the radius of the interval of which RATIONALIZE will return the simplest rational number. 20:35:28 This radius in CL's RATIONALIZE is implementation-dependent. 20:36:00 Riastradh: isn't it likely based on some underlying fact of the floating point representation? 20:36:04 Riastradh: I don't believe so. 20:36:40 drdo````` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:36:42 Riastradh: Otherwise I'd offer (defun rationalize (x) 1) 20:36:56 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-47-63.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:37:17 Quoth the CLHS, `RATIONALIZE returns a rational that approximates the float to the accuracy of the underlying floating-point representation.' Presumably this is the simplest rational number in some radius dependent on the underlying floating-point representation. 20:37:31 `...simplest rational number in some interval of radius dependent on...' 20:37:47 The spec also mentiones the identity (float (rationalize x) x) == x 20:37:48 What does 'radius' mean in this context? 20:38:22 gigamonk`, the radius of an interval of real numbers; half its length. 20:38:39 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.7] has joined #lisp 20:40:47 Well, you also can see each floating point number as an interval of real numbers. Namely the set of all real numbers, that when converted to a floating point would yield that very floating pointer number. 20:41:05 dydx [n=dydx@70.152.163.236] has joined #lisp 20:42:18 -!- dydx [n=dydx@70.152.163.236] has left #lisp 20:42:36 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:43:47 -!- drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:47:46 gilberth: So if a floating point number is (* s (expt 2 e)) (ignoring the sign for the moment) is there some way to express the bounds of that range you just mentioned in terms of s and e? 20:47:55 (I'm sure there is but I'm to slow to come up with it.) 20:49:57 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:50:42 gigamonk`: well, i really not a floating point guru, but considering that the next and previous floating point numbers (modulo mantissa overflow) are at (* (1+ s) (expt 2 e)) and (* (1- s) (expt 2 e)), my intial guess would be a "radius" of (expt 2 (1- e)). 20:50:45 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 20:50:54 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:51:16 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-47-134.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:04 -!- drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:39 gigamonk`, what are you working on? 20:53:08 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:50 tic: i belieave giagmonk` is trying to figure out how to implement RATIONALIZE. 20:54:01 Aha. 20:54:26 I imagine it won't be painless. 20:54:59 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-110-251.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:55:44 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56:06 *gilberth* would just browse the cmucl or sbcl source code for that. 20:58:03 Hmm, they borrowed from CLISP there. 20:58:35 yeah, so would I. 20:59:00 -!- drdo````` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:59:10 There is a nice explaination of the algroithmn in there. Not, that yet fully understand it. 21:00:42 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:09 Hmm, before that they borrowed from Macsyma. 21:01:12 hi, i want to buy a book about metaobject protocol. i think i am going to buy "The art of the Metaobject Protocol". can anyone recommend this book? 21:01:22 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:32 krumholt, I can. It's basically the only book on the MOP. 21:01:34 krumholt: i can. 21:01:45 Oh, look at that. SBCL's RATIONALIZE has a nice big comment explaining the algorithm. 21:01:55 see. 21:02:43 what makes it a good book? 21:02:59 It's a nice read. 21:03:33 woodz [n=woodz@host81-129-243-28.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:03:37 Hmm... (present foo :stream stream) invalid number of key arguments. What am I doing wrong here? 21:03:48 Cheap rationalize: Print the number to a string, like 5.32 -> "5.32". Then find out how far you have to move the decimal point back. Then do (/ 532 100). Voila. 21:03:57 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:03:59 ok thanks. i think i'll give it a try 21:04:03 krumholt: the book takes you on the route to implement CLOS or MOP for that matter, while using it all the time. 21:04:06 when there's only one book, there's only one choice 21:04:11 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl10-228-49.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:04:56 hefner: It still is pretty fun to read though. 21:05:33 I shouldn't revisit it. I didn't know CL very well when I first "read" it. 21:05:39 should, rather. 21:05:54 hefner: Oh, well, then it must have been a rough ride. 21:06:00 maybe the only book about MOP, but there is lots of other books about clos 21:06:34 -!- JuanDaugherty is now known as Lycurgus 21:06:48 Lots? 21:06:56 Two? 21:07:09 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:07:10 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:07:15 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 *gilberth* wouldn't know any particular book just about CLOS. 21:07:28 -!- woodz [n=woodz@host81-129-243-28.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:07:36 -!- schoppen1auer is now known as schoppenhauer 21:07:41 keene's book? 21:08:05 stassats: Right, forgot about that one. 21:09:07 slade? 21:09:16 *Xach* hasn't read slade, doesn't know if it's clossy 21:09:32 gilberth: AMOP, to an extent. 21:09:38 minion: slade? 21:09:39 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``slade''. 21:10:35 Never read that one, but Paolo Amoroso says: "I don't like it. [...] the actual book is about Common Lisp in general, and CLOS only gets minor coverage. 21:10:37 josemanuel [n=josemanu@81.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:10:41 ok 21:10:53 [http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2005-06/msg01378.html] for the matter 21:10:59 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a Llama again!"] 21:10:59 xof disrecommended it to me 21:11:09 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 metawilm [n=willem@e179005082.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:11:15 -!- tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2F63A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:12:32 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:29 okflo [n=user@91-115-83-197.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:14:38 krumholt: So do you want learn about CLOS or about the MOP? 21:14:45 manic12 annotated #69574 with "has something to do with the macro "send"." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69574#4 21:14:53 Both 21:15:13 In that case I recommend Keene and then the AMOP. 21:15:15 i know some about clos, but i want to learn more and i know none about mop 21:15:24 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 21:15:53 keene you mean Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS 21:16:09 yes. 21:16:10 krumholt: yes, it's a good introduction to CLOS 21:17:27 slade is not about clos 21:17:39 it's not even about common lisp as standardized 21:18:03 Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-4369616.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:18:50 Greetings everyone. I have a list with say 3 elements, (list 1 2 3). How can I extract from it the x-th element? 21:19:02 Beket: nth 21:19:04 (I already know how to do it in a plist with getf) 21:19:08 clhs nth 21:19:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nth.htm 21:19:40 but he wants the _X_th :) 21:19:56 like the 1.56th element? 21:19:56 LOL, it was so easy :> 21:20:04 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:34 cool, the base index is zero, as in C 21:22:53 Like in (defun xth (x list) (cond ((< x 1) (if (> (random 1.0) x) (car list) (cadr list))) ((xth (- x 1) list)))) ? 21:23:13 lots of silly parantheses! 21:23:24 omg, what's that ? :D 21:23:30 metawilm_ [n=willem@e179003240.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:23:34 (I can understand people's perception of Lisp if they haven't encountered properly indented code) 21:23:58 Beket: well, call it often enough and you get the 1.56th element. 21:23:59 gilberth: Shouldn't it do linear interpolation if both adjacent elements are numeric? 21:24:06 heh 21:24:06 tic: what, your irc client doesn't pprint? 21:24:08 nyef: hmm. 21:24:13 adeht, :) 21:24:14 I like it. 21:24:20 tic: Isn't losp something that frodef put together? 21:24:35 nyet: If there are string, somehow blend them together? 21:24:50 I've been learning lisp for a couple of hours now :> 21:25:03 Just to get a homework done in maxima's lisp. 21:25:14 gilberth: And if there isn't a sufficiently silly thing to do, signal an error of some sort? 21:25:16 But it's cute :) 21:25:26 where did pkhuong and chandler go? i wrote an example of the warning i'm getting 21:25:58 nyef, you're right! I can't find what it means. Do you know? 21:26:15 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-076-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:22 tic: No, but it's probably something like "lisp operating system primitives" or something. 21:26:37 nyef, makes sense. 21:26:54 *nyef* ponders SBCL/ARM again. 21:26:57 and before /I/ start making even less sense.... night! 21:26:59 -!- metawilm__ [n=willem@e179041205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:14 how can i create a directory in sbcl? 21:27:25 krumholt: ENSURE-DIRECTORIES-EXIST. 21:27:29 clhs e-d-e 21:27:29 ENSURE-DIRECTORIES-EXIST: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ensu_1.htm 21:27:46 thanks 21:27:50 I know `format' function to print a string. Can I also print a number with it, by -say- passing a format string to it ? 21:27:52 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:56 Don't forget your trailing slash! 21:28:31 Beket: (format t "~2,'0X" 13) ? 21:28:32 hi adeht. I think I'll make with-readtable-iterator quite different; it won't take macro-char-types but character syntax types, and the generator will only return the exhaustion flag, the character, and its attribute. 21:28:50 Beket: (format t "This is my lucky number: ~R." 42) 21:28:57 Beket: Try ~D for decimal. 21:29:16 adeht: I'll also specify functions GET/SET-CHARACTER-SYNTAX-TYPE, and GET-DISPATCH-MACRO-CHARACTER-TABLE. 21:29:17 Let me try it 21:29:41 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:29:50 Beket: here are the things you can do with it: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node200.html 21:29:52 (format t "~@R ab urbe condita" 3029) 21:30:49 Krystof: so I've given up on figuring out how to deal with that floating point foo we were talking about the other day--I'm implementing bignums and rationals in Javascript. ;-) 21:31:34 Sweet! It works great. Thanks locklace, gilberth and nyef. 21:31:39 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 21:31:42 tcr: I'm too fuzzy atm to comment about the w-r-i changes, but the functions approach sounds good. 21:31:45 seriously, are there any sbcl people here that can tell me what is wrong with the code i posted? 21:32:23 manic12_: Have you tried asking on the mailing list? 21:32:39 gigamonkey: yeah. My numerical analysis is weak, but I think your case might be a textbook example of the perils of floats. 21:32:55 -!- okflo [n=user@91-115-83-197.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:33:00 by next week I will be on to something entirely different, like working for pay 21:33:28 You're iterating some large number of times, and the correctness of the iteration depends on a particular constraint (that the sum of probabilities adds to 1) that the iteration does not ensure 21:34:10 -!- malu__ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb9686.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:34:35 adeht: Although I'd really to work on it (it triggered a burst of hackactivity within me), I don't have time. It'll probably have to wait until christmas, or, worse, until semester breaks in march. 21:34:42 I have a function that returns a list. Can I assign the return value to a variable? 21:34:58 normally they are right here to give me 10 reasons why I'm a retard 21:35:43 Beket: Why makes you wonder about that? 21:35:43 Beket: would the variable already be in scope? 21:35:43 minion: tell Beket about pcl 21:35:44 Beket: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:36:04 Beket: read that book, it will answer many of your questions 21:36:09 tcr: ouch 21:36:21 I asked on sci-math.num-analysis and they basically said "well, you should do an error analysis but since you're asking, you probably don't know how." 21:36:41 stassats, that's what I am reading at the moment. I am kind of lost. It seems a common practice to not save the result of function calls into intermediate variables. 21:36:51 clhs defstruct 21:36:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm 21:37:31 Beket: it's a common practice to not save it when it is not needed 21:37:41 gigamonkey`: bah, don't let them talk down to you: error analysis is easy. You just (haha "just") work out a suitable expression for the error in a single step, iterate, and see how much the error is in the 538th step 21:37:48 tcr: if I get time I might look into some readtable niceties 21:37:54 Beket: Do you know about LET? 21:38:35 gilberth, no. Thanks for the keyword, that was all I was asking for:) 21:38:46 *ironChicken* figures it must be some sort of institutional firewall issue 21:38:58 for instance, the error in the first step might be something like (* prob double-float-epsilon 1/2) 21:39:19 adeht: Well, I think I'll try to hack my thoughts into my sbcl branch. But I won't update the CDR accordingly because that's very time consuming. 21:39:26 tcr: so if you got anything interesting don't hesistate to use me as a pastebin ;) 21:39:30 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:39:37 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.7.37.26] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:56 manic12_: there's nothing much wrong with your code; it's a bogus style warning, because the slot-value is seen before any slots of that name are defined 21:40:10 adeht: I'll dump my current thoughts into a mail, and send it to you. 21:40:14 -!- metawilm [n=willem@e179005082.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:24 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.126.121] has joined #lisp 21:40:29 tcr: cool.. gtg now, movietime 21:40:36 is there any way to get (read) to not wait for and read one char? 21:40:36 hf 21:40:43 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 21:40:44 krystof: I tried moving my lambdas after the ensure class and I still get the style warning 21:40:45 my fee is a donation of 10% of your "working for pay" packet to Unicef 21:40:50 clhs: read-no-hang 21:40:50 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for read-no-hang. 21:41:12 qbg: read-char-no-hang 21:41:36 And don't forget your terminal mode. 21:41:40 qbg: nyef: thanks 21:42:04 tmh pasted "Simple float roundoff error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69602 21:42:08 (If your terminal is in line mode, the char literally isn't -there- until return is pressed.) 21:42:39 ah 21:42:43 gigamonkey`: I use the code pasted to give me an idea of how much error I'm getting. 21:42:53 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:59 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8d448ffe74c09604] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:43:02 Krystof: yeah. But I suspect in this case the error analysis is going to tell me "you're screwed--you can't do what you want." 21:43:20 afternoon 21:44:05 gigamonkey`: Divide the result by [single|double]-float-epsilon and see how it compares to the number of operations you're performing. 21:44:28 -!- prxq [n=mommer@X9ca7.x.pppool.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:45:00 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:45:46 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:22 nyef: hm, I'm using slime, I think it is in line mode, any idea how to change this? 21:46:30 tmh: well I know the errors are getting out of hand--I don't need any fancy analysis to figure that out. What I want--I think it boils down to--is exact math. (My actual question, in case you missed the earlier conversation, is at http://groups.google.com/group/sci.math.num-analysis/browse_thread/thread/6985f1ad7ede051e#) 21:46:55 gigamonkey`: I did miss the earlier conversation, let me look. 21:47:13 egn: I'm not sure that it is possible to change it. Certainly beyond me, as I'm not that strong with elisp hacking or slime configuration. 21:47:45 nyef: k, thanks anyways 21:48:09 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-61-42.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:51:21 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:31 egn: If you would be using CCL from the terminal: http://ccl.clozure.com/ccl-documentation.html#How-can-I-do-nonblocking--aka--unbuffered--and--raw---IO- 21:52:00 egn: I don't think it's currently possible, and I'm not sure how sensible it would be to implement it. You can post to the mailing list, and request the feature. 21:53:36 gigamonkey`: I'm digging into it a little. I'm not a true numerics guy, but I have been dealing with some of this stuff lately. It might be something as easy as expressing prob[i] / (1 - prob) slightly differently to get operation errors to cancel. 21:53:50 qbg: tcr: k, thanks 21:54:06 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:20 Beket pasted "Error with let and lists" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69603 21:54:31 Anyone kind enough to give it a glance ? 21:54:54 Beket: Let introduces lexical variable 21:55:01 *variables 21:55:34 and the syntax is (let ((var1 val1)*) &body) 21:55:35 qbg, whereas I abust it in what way ? :) 21:55:41 abuse* 21:55:59 Beket: You should really read through PCL. 21:56:13 I know, I suck :( Sorry 21:56:28 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:02 clhs: let 21:57:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 21:57:12 gigamonkey`: Is there some interactive javascript prompt I can play with? I don't really code in javascript. 21:57:45 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 21:57:55 nm, I found something. 21:58:35 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:54 adeht: Sent. Feedback welcome. 21:59:06 also what kind of lisp allows "(let rv (list 1 2 3))"? 21:59:22 Arc, I think. 21:59:32 that figures 21:59:44 -!- FZ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 22:00:17 that's clisp, i assume 22:00:17 It's not too unreasonable. I have something like that called LET1; it's nice because the init form is intended like in multiple-value-bind. 22:00:50 s/intended/indented/ 22:00:59 I assume there's no "sbcl ir1 hacking for idiots" guide out there 22:01:33 there is, it has zero pages 22:02:35 hefner: You can BREAK into the compiler, and use the inspector to figure stuff out. 22:02:47 -!- ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:03:17 This attitude is precisely why I find IR1 extremely difficult and confusing to work with... and IR2 to be simple and straightforward. 22:03:19 that was the advice that pkhuong gave to me :) 22:04:18 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-47-63.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:05:00 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:47 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-218-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:06:00 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:13 -!- xreyes_ [n=xreyes@8.84-48-175.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:45 I wonder if that would help. I got a reasonable idea, from overhauling jsnell's graphviz hack, what the node types are and roughly how they plug together, but still don't know where to start with creating new nodes and rewriting them into the graph 22:06:46 xreyes_ [n=xreyes@8.84-48-175.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:36 ... Something is wrong when you find yourself typing (etypecase (shifter-operand-operand operand) ... 22:07:44 gigamonkey: sometimes, there are ways of enforcing the invariants you care about 22:08:09 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 22:08:35 nyef: I wrote (char-code code-char) recently. 22:09:23 tcr: Eek. 22:11:10 chandler, gosh, I just tried using GXEmul, and didn't get anywhere until I commented out a spurious call to `free' that was destroying the pathname to the initial kernel before control ever reached it... 22:12:31 ivansto [i=ivans@93-138-56-95.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:13:14 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-42-91.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:14:10 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:15:56 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 22:16:09 -!- beach``` is now known as beach 22:17:08 metawilm [n=willem@e179009123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:17:10 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-076-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:54 thomas001 [n=thomas@p54B75281.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:45 hi, i came across ISLISP, which seems to be a actively developed standard by some ISO workgroup. are there any opinions about it? 22:21:16 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-78-169.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:21:44 thomas001: It's not very common. :-P 22:22:20 tmh, sure, i searched if someone is working on the CL standard,but only found islisp 22:22:32 thomas001, look to a fellow named jcowan for opinions on ISLISP. 22:23:41 thomas001: Do a search on comp.lang.lisp for discussions on updating the standard. There is plenty to read there, it's already been discussed ad nauseum. 22:24:15 vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:24:28 hmm ok,i'll have a look at the archives 22:24:51 thomas001: You'll also find mention of ISLISP in comp.lang.lisp. 22:25:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:26:03 thx 22:27:27 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-115-185.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:28:44 So, I have an SBCL porting question. Is there a known method for building the system to the point of having the target machine instructions defined and running a set of tests through it to make sure the instructions are encoded correctly? 22:29:41 'cause it seems to me that it'd be easier to debug things that way than to have to write most of the backend before having to validate the instruction encoding by trace-file and hex-dump. 22:30:41 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:31:27 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-78-62.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 22:32:36 sqvirt [n=sqvirt@c-24-16-244-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:56 Alright, I've made some progress: http://rafb.net/p/iyUD5x33.html The code is now syntax-error free. My question is why since I've binded the list returned by the `solve-fly-once' function to `return-values', when I try to extract the n-th element out of it, lisp complains that `return-values' is NIL ? 22:33:19 'bound', not 'binded'. 22:33:21 -!- metawilm_ [n=willem@e179003240.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:40 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:33:41 Sorry about that:) 22:34:28 Beket: your let has no body 22:34:29 Beket: your indentation should give you a clue; let is not like let in ocaml 22:34:56 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:35:05 Beket: you need (let ((foo 10)) (+ foo 30)) 22:35:07 Or like in BASIC for that matter :) 22:35:09 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-181-253-138.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:44 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-136-96-85.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:36:15 If I write (let ((foo 10))) lisp bind foo to 10 and evaluates to NIL. I understand that. If I then type (foo) shoulnd't I get 10 ? Or does the binding refer only to the scope of `let' itself ? 22:36:20 I have been looking at the row-major-array and array-row-major-index functions in the CLHS, and I am not seeing something that would allow me to use subseq to access/setf a chunk of array space using a row-major index. Is there one that I am missing somewhere? (I'm talking about something like this:) 22:36:28 (setf (subseq (row-major-ify my-array) start-idx end-idx) another-array) 22:36:28 nyef: I debugged an assembly-routine by making an emulator for the target. 22:36:42 Beket: Only to the scope of the LET, right. 22:37:09 if foo isn't special 22:37:14 That was then the spot of my misunderstanding! Thanks gilberth! 22:37:15 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-61-42.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:37:15 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm89.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:37:21 & Others 22:38:11 lhz: Not quite what I had in mind, I'm afraid. Right now I'm writing addressing mode encoders. I'm not even at the point of instruction definitions yet, let alone assembly-routines or VOPs. 22:38:26 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm89.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 22:38:29 lhz: But that does sound like something I might do. 22:39:18 nyef: what are you porting sbcl to? 22:39:25 ("Might"? Waitasec, I -did- do just that several years ago when trying to debug a 286 pmode OS bootstrap...) 22:39:29 gilberth: ARM. 22:39:42 nyef: That is very exciting. 22:40:05 nyef: Given a few years, we might finally have CL in the embedded world. 22:40:09 It's an on-and-off project for me. Right now it's on, but last time it was on was March. 22:41:44 nyef: Fair enough. 22:42:08 It occurs to me that it might make sense to use a git repository for the port, and put links to various commits in my port log. 22:42:52 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 22:43:26 metawilm_ [n=willem@e179024162.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:43:29 *gilberth* can't wait to finally get rid of C. 22:43:55 gilberth: isn't clisp already suitable for that purpose (embedded world)? 22:44:12 Or even ECL 22:44:22 stassats: Aehm, isn't it a bit slowish and doesn't it lack multi-threading? 22:44:48 Heh. From my port log: "We now have enough of the environment configured to get into trouble." 22:44:57 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-78-169.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:44:58 gilberth: does embedded world need it? 22:45:02 anyhow, in my market customers won't by the amount of memory needed for Lisp anyway. 22:45:17 gilberth: and sbcl's memory consumption is not very good 22:45:26 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:54 stassats: Well, I find it very useful. In my product there is primivite cooperative scheduler plus the various layers of interrupt handler. I just happen to hate hacking state machines. 22:46:19 the only ARM-embedded lisp code I've ever been able to ship has been guile over a tight C code base. 22:46:45 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 22:46:47 stassats: As I said, give it a few years. ARM microcontrollers get cheaper every day. 22:47:05 stathis_ [n=stathis@athedsl-4369616.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:47:14 Embeddable Common-Lisp isn't ported to ARM, but according to the website, it "should be rather easy." 22:47:26 gilberth: yes, of course it depends on various factors 22:47:52 isn't ECL just Kyoto Common Lisp? 22:48:17 -!- stathis_ is now known as Beket_ 22:48:19 it seems to evolve 22:48:20 gilberth: from what I've read, there has been a fair amount of work done since then. 22:48:38 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:48:39 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-178-253-8.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:41 gilberth: But I'm just quoting the website, I couldn't tell you what. 22:48:46 stassats: It also very much depends on your product. If would do some industrial control, I'd go with some ARM9 plus Linux plus some CL. 22:48:49 I know I am a PITA. Just one last question before I leave the room :) In http://rafb.net/p/m4d9S454.html in line 17, I'd like to give `di' a new value, so that `solve-fly-once' recalculates the new solution, based on the new parameters. Is this possible with my layout or would I need a major refactoring ? 22:49:07 -!- metawilm [n=willem@e179009123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:49:32 gilberth: what do you think about hedgehog? 22:49:43 Hmm, looks like there is already ARM work being done, http://ecls.sourceforge.net/logs.html 22:50:16 locklace: Well, I really want Common Lisp. 22:50:20 gilberth: maybe in several years we will have sbcl-os, who knows 22:51:11 gilberth: yeah, cl is big enough that it's a challenge to slim it down sufficiently for embedded environments 22:51:24 Anyhow, this is all is idle speculation for my line of products, as we have 64k RAM max. But then as far as i am know, compared to the competitors we already have the fattest microcontroler. 22:51:38 JoshJ [n=JoshJ@r38h107.res.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 22:51:43 locklace: How large is a bare bones ACL? 22:51:52 is there a built-in function that sums up an entire list? 22:51:56 *JoshJ* doesn't want to reinvent the wheel 22:52:05 gilberth: what you want is Armpit 22:52:07 JoshJ: Reduce 22:52:07 Scheme 22:52:24 locklace: CMUCL and SBCL are pretty agrressive at inlining. 22:52:26 ah, yeah, reduce would do it 22:52:30 so would fold i guess... 22:52:32 JoshJ: or even apply 22:52:57 tmh well i was expecting there to be a builtin called "sumlist" or something similar 22:53:16 i've found myself reinventing the wheel through simply not knowing all the standard functions before :P 22:53:23 gilberth: a fresh sbcl instance seems to require >= 25mb 22:53:33 Well, want i am actually contemplating is a SEXP-based C syntax, which would give me sane macros for starters. Think of Lisp sans CONS. 22:53:40 Beket_: you will need to use setf instead of let there (as a quick fix), but you better structure it differently indeed 22:53:41 JoshJ, (defun sumlist (lst) (apply #'+ lst)) :-) 22:53:47 locklace: At CLIM and you're at 40MB. 22:53:48 -!- Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-4369616.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:53:49 lol 22:54:03 locklace: IIRC ACL is at 4 or 6MB. 22:54:27 tmh: reduce is better than apply 22:54:30 gilberth: ok, that's interesting, don't know anything about acl. but that's a huge difference for a minimum runtime footprint 22:54:49 http://armpit.sourceforge.net/ 22:54:56 works on LPC ARM's even 22:55:04 oudeis, my sincere gratitude! I'll be back with more interesting questions the next days. Goodnight to GMT+2 :) 22:55:04 written in ARM ASM 22:55:10 locklace: They open code and inline far less often. 22:55:12 -!- Beket_ [n=stathis@athedsl-4369616.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:55:24 gilberth: anything useful in movitz? 22:55:30 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:55:48 locklace: really no idea. 22:55:52 *JoshJ* goes back to pondering his algorithms 22:56:29 hmm, armpit looks midly interessing, although it still is scheme. 22:56:39 Adamant: a compiler would be more interesting 22:56:50 gilberth: it's x86 but seems to be in the right direction 22:56:55 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-181-253-138.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:23 does anyone know if there is an existing CL function that is similar to copy-seq, except that it will work on multi-dimensional arrays? (or should I just write one?) 22:57:27 stassats: write one in ARM ASM and I will be suitably impressed 22:57:51 Adamant: unfortunately, i have no arm 22:57:55 gilberth: expand your horizons 22:57:57 sqvirt, I know there is not one 22:58:01 Hmm, if I were to write a compiler, I would write a cross compiler. 22:58:02 stassats: QEMU 22:58:07 vixey: thanks! 22:58:28 It's not like somebody logs into your elevator emergency phone and starts hacking. At least I hope that won't happen. 22:58:38 Adamant: yes, but i will have no profit on using lisp on qemu 22:59:16 -!- Sweetandy [n=Sweetand@c-24-22-132-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:59:20 stassats: I'm trying to point out it's hard enough to do what the Armpit Scheme people did 22:59:26 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-185-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 22:59:36 since it works on very low resource ARM's 22:59:52 not the big fat smartphone and web tablet ones 23:00:12 though these are still pretty fast. 23:00:29 well yeah, compared to AVRs 23:00:37 Adamant: i appreciate their work too 23:00:43 right, or anyhing 8bit. 23:01:18 but still, i believe s.th. like a cross compiler would be nice to have. 23:01:45 and sorting out .text and .data is a must, as often you have plenty of flash but little ram. 23:02:20 I bet you could implement cl circa cltl1 with a pretty small footprint 23:02:24 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:30 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-79-44.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:03:19 CLOS, the pretty printer, etc. might conspire to bloat the image 23:03:31 what about the numeric tower? 23:03:39 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:39 a selected subset of modern CL might be better 23:03:47 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 23:04:06 hmm, CLiCC comes to mind. 23:04:17 Is the goal to have an REPL accessable on the embedded machine? 23:04:24 what's a two dimensional board game, like tic tac toe or something 23:04:27 s/accessable/accessible/ 23:04:28 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:31 that i can code up an agent to solve :D 23:04:39 tmh: For my case: No. 23:04:41 i can't come up with anything besides games 23:04:42 ushdf: chess 23:04:45 that are much more complicated than tic tac toe 23:05:30 gilberth: In that case, I thought I saw some project, not sure about the target, that used CL to generate the code, I think assembly, for something embedded. 23:05:53 tmh: Hmm, perhaps should google again. 23:06:22 I wonder how many applications need the full numeric tower. 23:06:37 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-212-207-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:37 i don't know how to play chess well enough to code that ;) 23:07:10 In the last century or the century before that, can't remember, I had a CL to C compiler, where the REPL was just invoking the compiler and shoving the .o to the runtime. Compiler and Runtime where different [unix] processes even. 23:07:35 oudeis__ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-180-250-190.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:45 ushdf: so that will be a reason to learn it 23:07:46 So, it is possible to have a REPL without a compiler or interpreter on the target. 23:07:50 to learn chess?? 23:07:55 not hardly 23:08:18 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:08:22 Hmm, not what I was thinking of, but "L - A Common Lisp for Embedded Systems" 23:08:43 tmh: heh, just found that 23:08:52 mulisp for ARM would rock. :) 23:08:59 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.196.118] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:27 tmh: Thanks for the pointer. 23:09:35 gilberth: does your elevator software even need floating point? 23:09:50 hefner: No, DSP is done with fixed point. 23:11:57 hefner: It's basicially a fair bunch of DSP plus pretty simple logic. The DSP can even be left in C, as speed is very important there. But then it boils down to the convolution. 23:13:03 I've pondered what would go into a stripped down, easily cross compiled subset of CL (no bignums, maybe optional floating point, lobotimized clos, closed world) 23:13:51 I couldn't think of anything to do with it but write little games, though. 23:14:16 The funny think about CL is that it is old enough that someone has probably already written a paper on the topic you're thinking about. 23:14:20 hefner: Well, for such an application, making almost everything optional is reasonable. for instance i don't have a file system of any kind, so no pathnames needed. Somebody else might need different features. 23:14:39 Never underestimate the power of a good literature search. 23:15:06 ideal would be to have all the pieces available as modules 23:15:19 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@81.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:16:38 O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-42-91.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:16:48 Well, CLiCC is a bit like that, IIRC [long time ago I looked at it] it makes a few restriction, like skiping EVAL or not allowing functions redefined in runtime, and from that was able to a lot more type inference and optimization. IIRC it did a whole world compilation, but I may very likely be wrong on that. 23:17:36 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-42-91.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:17:52 But, if you think about that, if don't have INTERN, do really need to have packages in RAM? 23:18:45 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-115-185.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:26 gigamonkey`: If you're around, see if changing probs[i] = probs[i]*(1-prob) to probs[i] = probs[i] - probs[i]*prob is sufficient to correct your error. 23:19:27 Next option, what about packages which are in ROM with a RAM overlay for use in case someone uses INTERN? 23:19:56 nyef: In a copy-on-write fashion? 23:20:21 Not exactly. 23:20:29 what does it mean when aref has three arguments 23:20:37 I was more thinking of checking in the RAM copy and if it's not there then checking the ROM copy. 23:20:49 ushdf: Your array is two-dimensional? 23:20:59 ushdf: It means that it's expecting a two-dimensional... what gilberth said. 23:21:08 nyef: Oh, like in deep binding. 23:21:12 *ushdf* scratches his head 23:21:25 gigamonkey`: then change probs[i] = probs[i]/(1-prob) to probs[i] = probs[i]*(1+y)/(1-y*y) 23:21:48 gigamonkey`: If you modify those operations, I think the roundoff errors will cancel out. 23:22:02 nyef: The other day I was compemplating about putting the older generations [as in generalional gc] into flash. 23:22:08 so when is let ever superior to let* 23:22:08 ushdf: It's like foo[3][5] in C, but different. 23:22:23 ushdf, do you know what they both do? 23:22:29 yes 23:22:38 ushdf: I like to use let to emphasize that all of the bindings are independent. 23:22:38 it should be clear then 23:22:38 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 23:22:41 gilberth: That could be neat. 23:22:47 to emphasize them 23:22:49 sure 23:22:55 but any practical use in the code itself for let? 23:23:00 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:23:42 nyef: Yeah, but i guess hard to control, do a full gc 100,000 times and your flash is dead :) 23:24:01 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-178-253-8.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:27 if your working set is a little bit larger than your ram, i could imagine that happening fast. 23:24:35 ushdf: there is a rule of thumb: don't use let* where let will do 23:25:03 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-181-234-130.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:14 yes 23:25:17 metawilm [n=willem@e179019081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:26:59 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.126.121] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:27:43 sellout pasted "a place where LET and LET* behave differently" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69607 23:28:50 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 23:28:54 the bindings are done sequentially 23:28:56 -!- oudeis__ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-180-250-190.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:57 not in parallel, yes 23:28:59 is that it, though? 23:29:11 yes, that's it. 23:29:24 k 23:30:19 ushdf: and really, the bindings in let are not done in parallel, they are evaluated like all lists, just without side-effects. 23:30:47 Except, that they could have side-effects, just on on variables being bound. 23:31:23 Hell, I'm confusing myself. I know what I'm trying to say, but I'm failing miserably. I should get some dinner. 23:31:30 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:31:31 metawilm__ [n=willem@e179027154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:31:42 this is all described in CLHS and any lisp textbook 23:31:51 well, thank god i haven't read any of those 23:32:12 ushdf: why is that? 23:32:29 ushdf: (let ((a x) (b y)) body) <=> ((lambda (a b) body) x y) 23:33:09 metawilm___ [n=willem@e179029034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:33:47 those silly lambdas 23:34:31 is there a division function in lisp that will do e.g. (/ 5 4) => 1.2 ? 23:35:00 clhs float 23:35:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_float.htm 23:35:02 and (let* ((a 10) (b (+ a 10))) b) == ((lambda (a &aux (b (+ a 10))) b) 10) 23:35:15 JoshJ: what's wrong with 5/4 ? 23:35:31 segv, i need floats 23:35:41 coerce? 23:35:53 JoshJ: FLOAT 23:35:55 JoshJ: if it's just for printing use ~F 23:36:00 segv, this is a probability matrix and i already know that some of the things in there will be 0.01 23:36:10 (specifically, everything that would otherwise be a zero) 23:36:17 (float (/ x y)) does what i want 23:36:19 then exact rationals would be a better choice 23:36:26 (unless you have speed problems) 23:36:44 Yeah, I don't see why you want floats there. 23:37:31 considering that both numerators and denominators can get fairly large... i'm not sure i want stuff like 303/521 hanging around 23:37:53 well hrm, i guess that isn't that large in context of a computer... 23:37:58 JoshJ: you probably do (unless you have serious speed issues) 23:37:59 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-184-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:38:22 tmh: I just got back from walking the dog. I'll try your suggestions. 23:38:26 JoshJ: it is far better to leave things in rational form unless you absolutely need to do otherwise for some specific technical reason 23:38:31 Yeah, not at all ... if you see it being a bottleneck later on, then add some tactical FLOATs maybe. 23:38:32 -!- vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:38:38 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl10-228-49.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:00 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:39:16 so i should use (/ 1 100) where i need to replace zeros with .01 ? 23:39:19 JoshJ: gigamonkey` might want to tell you why floats are evil. ;) 23:39:40 JoshJ: (/ 100) 23:39:46 oh, nice. 23:39:59 i wish i was a pharoah 23:40:03 so i could throw shit at old poeple 23:40:30 30 years old was old for people in pharoah's time 23:40:32 tmh: herep 23:40:48 though I have no idea what you are talking about 23:41:06 ushdf: in that case you probably want to be a monkey. 23:41:07 -!- metawilm_ [n=willem@e179024162.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:09 any ideas for games that operate within grids 23:41:12 manic12_: So I guess I might be a target of ushdf. 23:41:16 of the same complexity, give or take, as tic tac toe? 23:41:16 ushdf, go? 23:41:19 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:19 oh uh 23:41:22 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:41:26 hrm, there's one i did for an assignment earlier this year 23:41:35 in lisp? ;) 23:41:37 yes 23:41:44 hang on, if you want a link i'll give it to you 23:41:46 i would be worm excrement at my age 23:41:52 what's the game? 23:42:06 http://www.cc.gatech.edu/classes/AY2009/cs3600_fall/project3.html <-- this assignment was several months ago so i doubt it'll be an issue if i give you the link 23:42:08 manic12_: I wonder how that feels like. 23:42:20 of course, the assignment was to create the players, not the game itself 23:42:24 probably feels good 23:42:29 Oh my word. Can someone debunk this? --> "Lisp is only possibly useful for AI these days. Otherwise there always is something better to use" 23:42:43 (as un-serious as that sounded, I was serious. :( ) 23:43:01 Quadrescence: this is nonsense 23:43:02 what is AI anyway? 23:43:21 what was the game though? 23:43:23 that's all i need 23:43:24 i don't think I have ever seen an AI 23:43:29 ushdf, scroll down on that page 23:43:30 manic12_: Haha 23:43:34 (to the bold "Isolation" headline_) 23:43:37 I'm contemplating learning some lisp. 23:43:39 that tells you how the game is played 23:43:45 What is common place programming technique these days, was AI once. 23:43:47 manic12_: you'll never know if it is AI 23:43:56 good point 23:44:11 stassats, that's only true if it's an AI with the intention of pretending to be a human ;) 23:44:25 no 23:44:26 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:44:40 JoshJ: with the intention to pass the turing test 23:44:42 the only real AI are programs that actually 23:44:43 gain information 23:44:44 as they run 23:44:51 that they use for their own execution 23:45:01 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-181-234-130.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45:09 the turing test isn't entirely relevant if the AI is freely admitting to being an AI; though you do end up with the problem of how to tell the actual AI apart from a demented human who thinks he's an AI... 23:45:29 though I think simply throwing big math problems at it is a simple enough solution to that problem >_> 23:45:33 i should be cleaning my program 23:46:02 will rdf enable ai? 23:46:17 Is there a good environment to program lisp in besides Emacs? 23:46:19 (two separate thoughts) 23:46:46 Quadrescence: what have you got against emacs? 23:46:47 Quadrescence, define "good" 23:47:28 Quadrescence, also i would imagine it depends somewhat on the lisp in question... Clojure probably benefits from being in an IDE that is aware of the libraries available to it; but I've not used Clojure so I'm not sure how big a deal that is/would be 23:47:31 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.161.178] has quit [] 23:47:46 -!- metawilm [n=willem@e179019081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:48 locklace: I'm sure nothing is wrong with emacs. But, quite frankly, I don't want to learn the keybindings. 23:48:06 JoshJ: clojure has an ide? 23:48:21 stassats, well i imagine you could get eclipse to work with it 23:48:23 Quadrescence, why not? or rather, what do you want to use instead? 23:48:23 JoshJ: Good, as in, I don't know. Comfortable? :/ Syntax highlighting. It doesn't need to be a huge ide. The simpler, the better, really. 23:48:24 Quadrescence: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/ <-- learn the keybindings. ;) 23:48:31 but i don't know if it is important enough 23:48:39 Quadrescence, start with C-x C-s (save) and you can use the menus for everything else and gradually pick up from there 23:48:41 minion: menmo for tmh: sadly, that didn't help. Thanks though. 23:48:42 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 23:48:47 minion: memo for tmh: sadly, that didn't help. Thanks though. 23:48:47 Remembered. I'll tell tmh when he/she/it next speaks. 23:49:14 JoshJ: though, clojure can be used with slime 23:49:14 -!- metawilm__ [n=willem@e179027154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Success] 23:49:21 You people and your slimey emacs. 23:49:44 mmmm, slimey 23:49:45 Quadrescence, unlike the editor-that-shall-not-be-named; you can actually edit text using standard notepad-like arrow keys, backspace, delete etc (at least, in the GUI version) 23:50:04 Quadrescence: if you are new to emacs, fire it up and type "control-h t". you will be presented with a tutorial. after 30 minutes of diligently working through it, you will be ready to go 23:50:58 Quadrescence, if you want to use C-x C-c and C-v for kill/yanking, you can do that too 23:51:15 JoshJ: The other program I've used for programming is Geany. I don't like big environments like, erm, Eclipse. 23:51:15 (though, I don't remember how) 23:51:27 myrkraverk, by editing the .emacsrc, obviously 23:51:48 Quadrescence, i use eclipse for java, emacs for everything else on *nix, and notepad++ for everything else on windows 23:52:13 JoshJ, *that* I know, but since I don't like those bindings, I don't know how to do them except by hand (iirc, there *is* a switch for it) 23:52:25 JoshJ: Okay, maybe Eclipse is acceptable for j00va, but, bloo blah bloo 23:52:27 *stassats* is using web-browser for browsing web, and emacs for everything else 23:52:45 Quadrescence, if you refuse to use emacs altogether; you should probably use whatever your DE's standard text editor is (gedit, kate, etc) 23:52:45 myrkraverk: it's called cua mode 23:52:46 *myrkraverk* has used emacs for browsing the web too 23:52:57 Quadrescence, unless your DE is "windows", that is ;) 23:53:01 locklace, but cua is C-insert for yank! 23:53:09 JoshJ: lunix here. 23:53:19 Quadrescence, ubuntu huh? just use gedit 23:53:27 locklace, like everyone who has used os/2 knows! ;-P 23:53:50 JoshJ: I contemplate switching to arch later. And xubuntu, so I have mousepad. :o 23:53:59 (not that I couldn't use gedit) 23:54:02 using plain text-editor without repl-integration is painful 23:54:05 Quadrescence: seriously, emacs is your best friend for editing lisp and working with the repl. invest a few minutes up front to familiarise yourself, it will be well worth it 23:54:14 i'll agree with stassats though 23:54:24 because otherwise you're going to be manually copy-pasting from your editor to the repl 23:54:40 i suppose you could just type raw text into the repl but that gets old very fast 23:56:16 If you guys insist. :/ 23:56:18 -!- kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:57:51 metawilm [n=willem@e179022050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:58:09 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:40 Quadrescence, we don't insist, after all, you can always use pico ;-P 23:58:50 sudo nano 23:58:52 :D 23:59:32 why sudo? 23:59:35 or "cat > best-program-evar.lisp" 23:59:52 JoshJ: To edit system files. >:D 23:59:59 Quadrescence, what system files on ubuntu are in lisp...?