00:00:07 -!- ths [n=ths@p54A47310.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:00:11 some of my best lisp times were using ilisp :) 00:00:29 i came to slime 4 months ago :-P 00:00:43 ooh, i forgot, my cheap new hack for clisp earlier 00:01:50 fusss pasted "most useful 3 lines of code i ever wrote" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69538 00:02:36 for people without site-systems, or symlinks for that matter 00:03:00 I hate to admit to asking this, but is this is the best way to take a negative (signed byte 8) and compute it's two's complement to do: (- (1+ (lognand -128 #xff))) ? 00:03:19 lognot! 00:04:13 lognot is the one's complement, sorry 00:04:26 slyrus_: (logand number #xFF)? 00:04:54 -!- jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:05:36 what's the difference between &rest and &body? 00:06:06 communication of intent 00:06:19 meingbg: one is used for macros 00:06:33 &body is used to you the rest of the arguments will be the form body 00:06:46 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-171-245.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:06:54 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:06:55 meingbg: slime will indent &body macro forms differently, for example. it's handy. 00:07:13 meingbg: they have the same effect in other respects. 00:07:31 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@208-78-102-169.slicehost.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:07:40 so technically they're interchangeable, just semantically different, like null and not? 00:07:46 + Xach which is WHY it is used mostly for macros - they indent nicely when you use &body :) 00:08:15 meingbg: they are not semantically different 00:08:24 meingbg: if the editor is smart, you will want to for indentation purposes think of &body just for macros 00:08:31 IMO :) 00:08:35 meingbg: not to code, anyway. it's a hint to humans and other tools. 00:09:13 I see, so body implies code-block. 00:09:31 merlincorey: mostly? 00:09:45 aesthetically, yes 00:09:48 are they allowed in non-macro lambda lists? 00:10:16 Xach: they are allowed, I believe, and I am sure a small number of people abuse them - I am free to be wrong too ;) 00:10:29 merlincorey: I think you're mistaken. 00:11:42 Compile-time error: Bad lambda list keyword &BODY in: (&BODY ARGS) 00:11:46 You are correct :) 00:12:26 *Xach* got to use http://l1sp.org/search/body to find the right specspot! 00:12:29 what do you folks recommend for cheap inter-lisp remote IPC? anything other than S-XML-RPC? 00:12:53 read/write? :) 00:13:02 I like CLORB, but I'm weird that way 00:13:07 so to remedy my statement, &body is MOSTLY used in macros, but surely SOME people use &rest which doesn't hurt the code but hurts us humans with smart editors 00:13:11 :P 00:13:35 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:37 hefner: mostly a feed; just wanna give the world "services", the world being my client Corman and Clisp running app 00:13:45 merlincorey: Makes sense, thx4info. 00:14:20 housel: CORBA? haven't touched it since my CMUCL days. does it not suck? :-P 00:14:56 well, I don't think it sucks, but that's probably a minority opinion 00:15:49 what are you running it on? 00:16:13 hefner: How do you use read/write when data isn't tree structured? 00:16:33 In my previous job I used it in Linux SBCL (x86 and x86_64) 00:16:35 meingbg: write and read are for any lisp objects. 00:16:54 Xach: How do they work for circular lists? 00:17:11 *PRINT-CIRCLE* 00:17:21 #n# and #n= 00:17:22 housel: cheers mate! 00:18:59 Xach: thanks! 00:19:01 Xach: Wait, does that mean I can just print anything, even a totally ugly bidirectional graph? 00:19:15 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:20:36 meingbg: you can print self-referential structure if *print-circle* is t 00:20:59 slyrus_: don't thank me, brother...thank Lisp! 00:21:34 meingbg: read the topic :) 00:22:39 -!- nurv101` [n=askmefor@bl10-158-83.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:57 meingbg: yes, but it will still be totally ugly 00:24:07 hefner: These recursive definitions, is there no end to them? 00:24:25 it's turtles all the way down. 00:24:43 lucca: Well, to the eye. At least it means I can save any data, right? 00:24:51 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 00:25:00 not all objects are printable 00:25:29 hefner: now what, can I not print TCP 00:25:37 connections and load them thereafter? 00:26:19 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0DC7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:26:21 I didn't expect that. 00:27:00 *hefner* shakes his sarcasm stick 00:27:52 hey now 00:28:10 not all objects can be printed readably, but most are printable 00:28:12 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:15 er, yeah 00:28:21 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:28:43 and if you really want to be nasty, you could print and "load" a TCP connection by abusing #. 00:29:50 *Xach* wants to mention make-load-form and friends, but has never actually used it 00:30:30 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@v113243.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 00:31:51 wow! 00:32:04 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:06 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:32:23 -!- Fractal [i=frax@institutionalized.s0ciopath.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:31 i remember make-load-form, poor-man's AllegroCache backend ;-) 00:34:10 blx [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:34:31 fusss: poor-man's AllegroCache was actually what I was looking for. I've been playing around with elephant for a few hours now, perhaps make-load-form will work with more implementations.. 00:34:37 how poor? (how much to obtain AllegroCache backend?) 00:35:12 merlincorey: Can you even buy it separately? 00:35:22 there is code in the CMU AI repo for a M-L-F based object persist thinggie. Highly unrecommended :-P 00:35:33 Elephant works out of the box! 00:35:34 I don't think so it was more of an academic/rhetorical question :P 00:35:52 Elephant, is the third best piece of Lisp free software out there 00:36:01 SBCL is the first? 00:36:11 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-281f8c6422c69bf4] has left #lisp 00:36:13 fusss: Well, it does *not* work out of the box for me. 00:36:47 merlincorey: SBCL is an implementation. Slime first, hunchentoot second. 00:36:53 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 00:37:19 meingbg: Linux SBCL, running Berkeley DB, ran Sqlite, migrated data successfully. What isn't working for you? 00:38:33 the depends are hell (CFFI, CLSQL with various backends, and weird BDB version dependence) 00:40:03 installing sbcl didn't really work. cmucl installed successfully, but then elephant couldn't find cl-base64, even after successful installation. 00:40:48 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:40:52 meingbg: ASDF-install is your friend. Do you know how to set ASDF paths to search? 00:40:56 we would all love to help you install sbcl. 00:41:45 fusss: I'm new to asdf and just followed install instructions. Let's see if I can get sbcl right first. 00:41:55 -!- blx [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:42:21 get sbcl right first. then figure out your emacs, if you want slime. 00:43:27 elephant is very much worth waiting for (did I plug elephant enough?) 00:44:17 fusss: You say elephant is better than make-load-form? I don't doubt it. 00:45:26 elephant is better RDBMS. elephant takes Lisp to the next level. if you hack alone in a dark room, elephant brings with a loud applauding crowd with every evaluated form. 00:45:31 it's awesome. 00:46:15 elephant takes relational tables and throws them against the wall like steve balmer throws chairs 00:46:48 fusss: that's enough 00:46:57 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:47:12 i'll be here all week :-P 00:47:13 fusss: That's what I suspicted, and what got me interested. I'm a fan of pgSQL otherwise, but I'm ready to try this out. 00:47:34 the man has spoken, meingbg 00:47:47 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:48:22 fusss: No one can hereafter doubt your sincereness of awe :) 00:48:45 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-94c4714ee346d02b] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:49:04 postmodern is pretty cool for postgresql access. 00:49:54 brb 00:50:43 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:51:39 Xach: the reason I like pgSQL is because it brings intelligence into the back-end. Since lisp seems good for server programming, I'm gonna find out what elephant can do for me. 00:52:03 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:52:19 disumu [n=disumu@p57A26018.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:28 and postgre was written in lisp in the beginning 00:53:42 stassats: Really? I had no idea. It doesn't surprise me, though - the way the system converges towards generality has a lisp-y feel to it. 00:54:16 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:54:20 meingbg: that was a long ago and i doubt anything remained since then 00:54:34 stassats: the concept idea? 00:54:46 stassats: i've seen that claimed a few times, but haven't seen much evidence to support it. do you know where i can find some? 00:55:07 Xach: there was some pdf with history of postgre 00:55:29 allright, I have sbcl source unpacked as root, do I just make;make install? 00:55:46 meingbg: no. 00:55:49 wow I might need to check out elephant... 00:56:01 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:03 meingbg: the easiest thing is to grab a binary from sbcl.org and install it first with "sh install.sh" 00:56:20 fusss: slime is definitely the most awesome of awesomes... I considered sbcl in the running because it is freeware and lispy :P 00:56:21 meingbg: then if you want to build from source, you can grab source, then use "sh make.sh ; sh install.sh" 00:56:32 but I understand the disqualification... what's huchentoot though? 00:56:36 *merlincorey* will be googling 00:56:39 meingbg: SBCL is a lisp program, so you need a Lisp compiler to build it. 00:56:51 meingbg: if you don't already have one, you gotta get one (hence getting the binary first) 00:57:01 merlincorey: web server. 00:57:08 Xach: I have both clisp and cmucl installed. 00:57:10 hunchentoot is the name 00:57:22 meingbg: I don't think those actually work, though cmucl might. 00:57:31 in that case, i think you would do "sh make.sh lisp" 00:57:41 amo_de_muerte [n=amo_de_m@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 00:57:41 clisp is not likely to be worth trying at the moment 01:01:22 Xach: clisp is the best single-processing Lisp! at least it closes its socket handles when it's done ;-) 01:01:52 process a lot of singles, do you? 01:02:08 Xach: here http://db.cs.berkeley.edu/jmh/cs262b/postgres.html also stated about lisp 01:02:17 fusss: Do you mean it's the best lisp when you're not using threads, or that it's the best lisp that doesn't include thread support? 01:02:43 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:02:46 -!- psil [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 01:02:54 sellout: the later 01:03:04 stassats: thanks. 01:03:54 Xach: page 30: http://www.itasoftware.com/careers/SolveThisWorkHerePuzzles.html 01:04:58 meingbg: I don't think they have 30 pages of puzzles ... 01:05:01 meingbg: what am i looking for? 01:05:11 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:05:22 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:18 Xach: "we decided to try writing POSTGRES in LISP" 01:06:42 meingbg: i don't see the string "postgres" on that page 01:06:52 or "lisp" 01:07:02 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DAED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:07:03 r00k [n=ben@216.93.247.56] has joined #lisp 01:07:17 meingbg: Wrong link? 01:07:21 itym http://s2k-ftp.cs.berkeley.edu:8000/postgres/papers/ERL-M90-34.pdf 01:07:26 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:40 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:07:49 Xach: oh sorry, wrong link. 01:07:55 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:08:20 Heh. The arguments there are... quaint. 01:08:30 Hence, POSTGRES exceeds 4 mbytes in size, all but 1 mbyte is the LISP compiler, editor and 01:08:33 assorted other non required (or even desired) functions. Hence, we suffer from a gigantic footprint. 01:08:41 hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:47 The machine under my desk has 8GB of ram and cost <$1000 01:09:20 Xach: Yes, it's the link stassats gave. 01:09:29 stassats: Won Kim's OODBs book lists Postgres as a "research" successor to Ingres. But the book mentions many different Lisp based DBs, half as many as C ones actually. 01:10:05 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:10:10 -!- maxote [n=maxote@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:12:16 dialtone [n=dialtone@c66-235-11-118.sea2.cablespeed.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:32 meingbg pasted "sbcl compilation under cmucl failed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69540 01:15:36 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:15:47 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:15:54 mooglenorph [n=marco@student166-181.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 01:15:57 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:16:02 meingbg: That's interesting. Would you mind sending the log to the sbcl-devel mailing list? 01:16:07 meingbg: also, what version of CMUCL is this? 01:16:12 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:16:15 -!- amo_de_muerte is now known as maxote 01:16:35 meingbg: as a practical matter, I'd recommend just grabbing the SBCL binary distribution from the SBCL web site and installing it, and using it to compile the newest version if necessary. 01:17:02 chandler: yeah, I'll go for the binaries. How do I see my cmucl version? 01:17:42 try -v or -version or --version :-P it should also print it when you start it up 01:17:54 mm. Fairly certain that *warning* for undefined functions is non-standard. 01:18:16 also, (lisp-implementation-version). 01:18:20 cmu common lisp cvs 19d 19d-release (19d) 01:19:07 Hm. THat release is two years old. 01:19:28 chandler: debian. Never updating their packages. 01:19:59 Yes. Don't install lisp implementations from Debian packages. 01:20:08 chandler: learned my lesson. 01:20:35 do you still want me to send the log? 01:20:48 Probably not. 01:22:54 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:23:07 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 01:23:47 meingbg: don't blame debian 01:24:15 meingbg: it's the stable release, its packages never change by mandate because that is how they architected the system - there are always backports ;) 01:24:33 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:24:39 stable only receives patches for stability and security - no new packages are added 01:25:07 meingbg: alternatively, it is the package maintainer, and you're encouraged to not only blame them but poke them and make them update :P 01:25:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:25:38 merlincorey: I like the fact there are two options. 01:26:07 I do blame debian for how messed up their Lisp implementation packages are. 01:26:43 So now I do INSTALL_ROOT=/usr/local sh install.sh in extracted binary root? 01:27:14 chandler: again, maintainer's fault, but I haven't had any problems; however I just use SBCL + emacs + slime so I don't have experience with other stuff 01:27:48 merlincorey: It is Debian policy to mess up their packages with common-lisp-controller. 01:28:01 *fusss* still struggling with s-xml-rpc :-S 01:28:08 merlincorey: http://www.sbcl.org/getting.html 01:31:02 chandler: unfortunately I am still too new to know what common-lisp-controller is exactly and how it could be messed up... but it is the maintainer's fault :P 01:31:21 meingbg: Oops, I meant to give that link to you. 01:31:34 merlincorey: It takes over REQUIRE, SBCL's provided ASDF, and other things. 01:32:02 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 01:32:05 It is meant to provide a "standard" way of packaging Lisp libraries, but it really makes it impossible for the upstream maintainers to support Debian users. 01:32:12 ach so; I think that is because they offer asdf package as well, but now I am just speculating and it doesn't matter that much 01:32:23 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:55 understandable; but hopefully debian users are reporting to debian maintainers - it is the maintainer's job to communicate with upstream and mediate problems with users 01:33:00 that's in theory of course 01:33:02 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:33:11 c-l-c is defective by design 01:33:18 apparently in reality the debian maintainer for lips packages is useless and the users are too eager :P 01:33:23 s/lips/lisp/ 01:34:02 In reality, the users are here, and I am telling them not to use Debian packages. 01:34:15 touch down! :-P 01:34:41 gotta go, feels like a "roll your own rpc thinggie" nite :-S 01:34:46 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 01:35:00 Sigh. 01:35:10 there there 01:35:11 hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:18 *merlincorey* presents chandler with a beer 01:35:36 I've already had most of a bottle of wine, so that's probably not what I need at the moment. 01:36:08 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:12 *merlincorey* presents chandler with a head of cheese 01:36:13 :P 01:36:18 I love how every time X blows up and I reconnect, it sounds like I've missed something terribly interesting 01:36:21 fusss: That didn't last long. 01:36:28 hefner: No, you haven't. 01:36:34 chandler: the xmlrpc site is hosed 01:36:46 just gotta show you guys something 01:36:51 have a good night folks 01:36:58 *merlincorey* waves 01:37:14 nite merlincorey 01:38:05 wow, the site just gave me a weird error "C:\Program Files\Opal\Index.htm not found", but server string footer said it was hosted on Mac OS X :-P NFS webroot? 01:38:22 Link? 01:38:31 http://www.xmlrpc.com/spec 01:38:36 it's back up again 01:38:44 shoulda screenshot 01:39:32 anyway, nite folks! 01:39:35 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:44:17 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:46:28 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 01:50:02 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.203.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:56:15 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 01:56:46 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 02:00:22 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:48 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:37 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:03:48 -!- ``Erik__ is now known as ``Erik_ 02:05:00 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c-6470e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:10:14 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 02:11:37 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:49 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:19:39 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@h-188-232.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has left #lisp 02:20:25 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@217.203.137.186] has joined #lisp 02:21:16 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 02:25:56 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:31:38 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@student166-181.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:35:57 anybody awake? got problems getting elephant running. 02:36:58 *rtoym* is awake, but doesn't know anything about elephant. 02:37:35 meingbg: The best way to find out is just to ask your question. 02:39:59 (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :elephant) is complaining about some fasl file in elephant that's been compiled with sbcl 1.0.11.18 and can't be loaded into sbcl 1.0.20. I though that command would actually recompile the lib's? 02:41:06 meingbg: isn't there a restart? 02:41:17 meingbg: if not, just delete the old .fasl and try it again. 02:41:19 meingbg: I'm not sure about that, but you can delete the existing fasls and compile it again. 02:41:38 heh, just found it. sorry to bother. 02:44:36 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:45:21 kidd2 [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:42 milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.147] has joined #lisp 02:48:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:49:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:50:49 hippee-lee [n=hippee-l@71-208-71-7.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:31 -!- hippee-lee [n=hippee-l@71-208-71-7.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:53:14 meingbg annotated #69540 with "elephant memory fault" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69540#1 02:53:26 Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 02:53:55 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:54:20 Does anyone have an idea? 02:56:49 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:56:52 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:58 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:00:53 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:01:37 kidd2 [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:16 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:19:45 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 03:22:51 <``Erik> I've fallen into the habit of deleting all my fasl's every time sbcl gets updated. There's a chunk of code that gets added to an asdf hook to force recompile on outdated fasl on I think cliki, but it's been hit or miss for me 03:23:43 I just use asdf-binary-locations 03:28:35 -!- kuhzoo1 is now known as kuhzoo 03:30:47 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:18 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.147] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:32:04 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@24.143.65.167] has joined #lisp 03:47:12 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@217.203.137.186] has quit ["Valete!"] 03:49:00 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@c66-235-11-118.sea2.cablespeed.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:00:32 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:00:56 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:02:20 -!- Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has left #lisp 04:11:09 sunwukong [n=vukung@203-165-96-155.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:13:30 -!- pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:13:53 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:57 envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:22:24 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:22:25 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:22:52 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 04:22:58 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A26018.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["zzz"] 04:23:08 -!- envi_home is now known as envi^home 04:25:38 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:27:44 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-13-160.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 04:39:26 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 04:39:26 04:39:26 -!- names: ccl-logbot envi^home gigamonk` stassats` bighouse photon pinterface sunwukong dialtone_ jeremiah kidd2 mindCrime djinni` Buganini kpreid rtoym Aisling ``Erik_ hefner sohail spiderbyte stassats kleppari lichtblau r00k maxote jtoy ths_ slyrus_ lyte Maghnus dfox_ seelenquell_ H4ns1 sellout bilberth xjrn kidd Jasko abeaumont Krystof lispm H4ns2 x6j8x kuhzoo creddy [Head|Rest] Cel sabetts ace4016 specbot minion lisppaste hsaliak borism pitui cracki 04:39:26 -!- names: mogunus rme amnesiac kuwabara jfrancis meingbg robot_jesus ebzzry Eno_ arbscht_ ia replor hugod_ FZ existentialmonk daniel_ xan_ lemoinem matthew` haiwei ryepup billstclair segv Nshag ``Erik johs pok mikezor bohanlon lnostdal ZabaQ sad0ur dash__ rdd xinming araujo zbigniew jmbr BrianRice pchrist brandelune Bzek ivanst_ envi^office eno abend_ bpt gigamonkey cmm housel prip Modius froog ahaas schme_ Chrononaut enn z0d persi jajcloz cods Soulman 04:39:26 -!- names: l_a_m boyscared srcerer manic12 S11001001 dmiles_afk gjvc PissedNumlock eevar cmeme beach mdxi jlouis scode Bucciarati mornfall thijso kmkaplan jrockway sbok Tristam esden Patzy mgr djkthx eirik puddingpimp Liempt Tordek yango larstobi pchrist|univ ivarref e271 jmcphers lucca Cryovat tarbo alexsuraci isomer proq a-s defn joga jollygood_______ herbieB guenther__ p8m Guest53748 aking V-ille wgl mathrick merlincorey tessier Xof spiaggia t thedonvaughn 04:39:26 -!- names: bedlam felipe Partyzant ineiros rlpowell kreuter olejorgenb brickhazel mcxx nullwork_ nullwork intrados Khisanth Zhivago jsimonss sykopomp locklace fihi09 vcgomes[away] nyef ianmcorvidae r0bby turbo24prg bascule m4thrick Ifur phadthai drewc azuk slyrus bougyman sjbach tltstc DrForr nasloc__ luis yahooooo wlr authentic xristos agemo erg Riastradh Thas Draggor retupmoca _CitizenKane_ keithr dto Soulman__ froydnj bob_f rread spacebat bdowning delYsid 04:39:26 -!- names: Paraselene_ gz antifuchs pkhuong rey_ qebab Ash technik pragma_ xian michaelw jsnell jkantz andrewy SUNWjoejaxx Adrinael bfein foom dcrawford clog faheem tic mvilleneuve bunz esden`away mqt albino fnordus mtd _3b esden_ maskd andrerav Xach dublpaws rumbleca jamesjb dostoyevsky Fade chii jolby chandler Balooga adeht rsynnott emma 04:46:47 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:47:54 twopoint718 [i=chris@adsl-71-150-248-173.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:57 -!- twopoint718 [i=chris@adsl-71-150-248-173.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 04:50:32 mooglenorph [n=marco@student165-146.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 04:50:39 Good morning. 04:52:26 mornin' beach! 05:02:11 `nipra [n=nipra@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 05:03:56 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 05:13:08 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.112.36] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:20:34 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-24-5.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:23:47 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@student165-146.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:39 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-24-5.dip.osnanet.de] has left #lisp 05:26:51 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@203-165-96-155.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:28:52 Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@2002:c6ca:19fb:80b:f085:2dff:fec7:1dee] has joined #lisp 05:29:51 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-30-196.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:57 gloaming [n=steve@75-161-91-94.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:17 what do people recommend for GUI development in lisp? 05:30:34 minion: tell gloaming about CLIM 05:30:34 gloaming: direct your attention towards CLIM: The Common Lisp Interface Manager (CLIM) is a powerful Lisp-based programming interface that provides a layered set of portable facilities for constructing user interfaces. http://www.cliki.net/CLIM 05:30:38 minion: tell gloaming about McCLIM 05:30:38 gloaming: please look at McCLIM: McCLIM is Mike McDonald's Free and portable implementation of CLIM, the Common Lisp ueber-Graphics Toolkit and a Common Lisp Library. http://www.cliki.net/McCLIM 05:30:38 McClim 05:31:21 gloaming: But let me warn you; if you are used to writing GUIs in other languages and with other toolkits, you will find the concepts of CLIM very different from that. 05:32:01 I hope so. 05:32:09 My experience with wxPython was hellish. 05:32:15 That is fine. I don't have a project that requires a lisp gui atm, but I am learning lisp and was confused by some of the options on cliki. 05:32:21 beach: do you think someone who hasn't worked with gui stuff before would have a fair time with McClim? I haven't gotten around to messing with it yet. 05:32:37 sykopomp: I think so. 05:33:21 sykopomp: The easiest thing to do would probably be to follow the step-by-step examples in the McCLIM manual. 05:36:35 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E449DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:02 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-59-86.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:08 Thanks beach. Looks like what I was looking for, looking at the examples in the manual now. 05:43:46 I haven't tried installing it yet, but dose mcclim work with clisp well? 05:44:24 gloaming: I'm afraid I don't know. There might be a performance problem, but I really haven't tested it. 05:45:15 That's cool. I'll probably try asdf installing it tomorrow or sunday and playing with it. 05:46:00 Let us know if you have any problems. 05:46:46 I'll be in here when installing so I'll let you know how it goes then. :) 05:46:57 Yes, that's what I meant. 05:47:56 *gloaming* nods. 05:48:11 hm 05:48:12 Just confirming that I will. 05:48:36 does clisp have some licensing clause that allows its images to be used under non-gpl licenses? 05:48:55 me-so-stupid_ [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 05:49:37 I am not sure about images. byte code can be under any license you want, but that is all I know. 05:50:10 I thought images could only be used on the same machine? 05:50:46 ivansto [i=ivans@93-136-96-245.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 05:51:27 the official answer seems to be here http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/faq.html#faq-licensing 05:52:48 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46234.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:51 -!- me-so-stupid_ is now known as sdfgh153 05:56:56 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:58:56 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:58:59 dialtone [n=dialtone@c66-235-11-118.sea2.cablespeed.com] has joined #lisp 06:04:23 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-136-50-111.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:06:22 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:06:24 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:06:52 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-199.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:09:56 kidd2 [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:05 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@24.143.65.167] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:17:36 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:19:43 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@24.143.65.167] has joined #lisp 06:20:56 kidd2 [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:10 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:23:06 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:27:04 mooglenorph [n=marco@admin161-3.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 06:30:42 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:33:24 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:36:23 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@c66-235-11-118.sea2.cablespeed.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:43:30 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:43:32 -!- maxote [n=amo_de_m@84.79.67.254] has left #lisp 06:43:40 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:44:00 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:46:56 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:47:38 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 06:47:50 -!- Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@2002:c6ca:19fb:80b:f085:2dff:fec7:1dee] has left #lisp 06:55:02 -!- sdfgh153 [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:00:51 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-19-195.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:01:34 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:01:43 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 07:03:28 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 07:07:01 c|mell [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:11:05 maxote [n=maxote@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 07:29:27 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 07:33:16 mega1 [n=mega@3e70d0a9.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:38:39 milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.182] has joined #lisp 07:40:17 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=macosx@217.149.185.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:40:43 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:42:07 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:46:33 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:35 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 07:47:42 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #lisp 07:51:49 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:54:37 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:48 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:57:20 cajetanus [n=cajetanu@aapo120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:07:51 -!- arbscht_ is now known as arbscht 08:09:35 hi guys 08:10:10 i notice that hunchentoot has some great functionality for getting backtrace descriptions out of most lisps 08:10:38 is there something like trivial-backtrace to do that with fewer unnecessary dependencies? 08:12:44 milos_ [n=mikici@92.36.179.234] has joined #lisp 08:14:35 cajetanus_ [n=cajetanu@aapq121.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:15:12 -!- milos_ [n=mikici@92.36.179.234] has left #lisp 08:16:46 c|mell: no. and i don't think we need more trivial-foo packages for really trivial things 08:17:26 c|mell: i'd rather vote for removing backtrace printing from hunchentoot altogether. for serious debugging, they are useless anyway. 08:17:31 which package would this fit into then 08:17:38 c|mell: none. 08:17:41 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70d0a9.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:17:56 backtraces are better than nothing? 08:18:12 c|mell: no backtraces are better than more dependencies. 08:18:20 -!- cajetanus [n=cajetanu@aapo120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:18:23 mega1 [n=mega@3e70d0a9.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:18:41 that's a rather bold viewpoint 08:19:05 i do agree there are too many trivial- things 08:19:32 backtraces are quite useful in logs 08:19:38 c|mell: there are also enough external dependencies in hunchentoot. 08:19:49 i don't want to use hunchentoot 08:19:58 c|mell: why do you care then? 08:20:02 i have my own webserver that is much better 08:20:12 i want to use backtraces in that 08:20:26 i could cut and paste the stuff from hunchentoot 08:20:30 but that seems wrong 08:20:36 c|mell: ah - okay, then extract the backtrace printing functionality from hunchentoot into some trivial-foo package 08:20:50 happy mailman day, everyone 08:21:01 c|mell: or into your own webserver, whatever your policy regarding external dependencies is. 08:21:01 everything fits into trivial-garbage :-) 08:21:34 i would prefer to put it into another package, rather than making a one-function package 08:21:58 c|mell: mega1 offered you a neat home :) 08:22:35 if you guys reckon that it fits in trivial garbage i would go along with it 08:22:47 mega1: maybe trivial garbage should be renamed so that it fits for things that have been left unspecified in cl, but are present in some way or another in all implementations. 08:23:36 that suggestion was a joke for the most part 08:23:39 c|mell: what are the features that make your web server better than hunchentoot? 08:23:48 it uses epoll directly 08:23:53 so it is very fast 08:24:09 vy pasted "Finding 1R Attack Psi for DES" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69544 08:24:13 it has a cool css and html templating thing too 08:24:38 c|mell: ah, so it is linux specific and more of a framework than just a http server? 08:24:39 but since there are too many trivial packages I can see how a bigger umbrella could be useful as long as the dependencies of the resulting package are kept to a minimum. 08:25:17 mega1: that is what i wanted to express. something like modern-common-lisp or in the lines of that. 08:25:25 yeah exactly 08:25:30 mega1: not that i suggest "modern" really :) 08:25:32 that would be awesome 08:25:58 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-185a4308327ad8a2] has joined #lisp 08:26:04 c|mell: you can make it happen 08:26:07 H4ns1, yes at the moment it is linux specific though it would be quite easy to port to freebsd kqueues 08:26:29 c|mell: i guess windows would be more challenging 08:26:58 well i have so much stuff i want to package up and share that i was hoping to piggy back on someone else's package for this 08:27:21 i guess i will put it on my list 08:27:38 c|mell: so it is copy and paste for you, too :) 08:27:59 mooglenorph pasted "ps-html issues" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69545 08:28:12 Hello. Having some trouble with ps-html. 08:29:02 mooglenorph annotated #69545 with "generated code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69545#1 08:29:10 benny [n=benny@i577A0F35.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:29:17 THe code generated from the ps-inline call doesn't raise an alert, I think because the double "" confuses javascript? 08:32:02 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2CA89.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:54 Anyway, when I change the inner "" to ' ' manually (around the onclick hello world) it works. 08:44:08 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-59-86.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:46:37 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:52:04 ak70 [n=user@195.158.88.244] has joined #lisp 08:52:33 mornin' 08:53:26 the_unmaker [n=g@cpe-76-166-187-100.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:53:49 happy hallows een lispers 08:59:00 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:00:03 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:00:12 That was yesterday ? 09:00:27 tonight 09:00:47 ciscbrain [n=eugen@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 09:02:06 ? 09:02:13 I tought it was the 31st of october? 09:02:26 yeah night of 31st is not over 09:02:37 i dont care if its nove 1 09:02:37 The world of Lisp users is large. 09:02:41 its halloween night 09:02:44 mulligan [n=user@e178054155.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:03:00 Hmm.. 09:03:09 10 am november 1 ;) 09:03:15 it is! 09:03:17 Yesterday was all hollows eve, today is all hollows day (alla helgons dag) 09:03:18 the halloween party ended at 3 when the club closed. 09:03:35 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:37 Which was very nice, I must say. 09:03:39 means I should go to the cemetary and follow some arcane Polish tradition. 09:03:40 :D 09:03:43 schme_, nice! 09:03:45 But today it's lisp day. 09:03:56 tic: Ya. fetish party with halloween theme ;) 09:05:18 sunwukong [n=vukung@203-165-96-155.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:09:01 any sbcl gurus here -- note: *INLINE-EXPANSION-LIMIT* (200) was exceeded -- is biting me 09:09:41 as far as i can see this, this limits the total number of inline expansions in a block 09:09:58 not the total depth of inline expansions, which would make more sense 09:10:21 so if you refer to an inline function 200 times in a block then you hit the limit 09:10:47 uh 09:10:49 hm 09:12:36 c|mell: Your thesis is that you want something that'll need to be expanded more than 200 times to be inline, rather than indirect? 09:13:28 is it a limit of some recursive job? 09:19:46 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:23:51 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:24:03 lispage! 09:24:36 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-026-156.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:25:15 szg pasted "help for test terms.." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69547 09:25:17 live.com 09:26:07 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-139-178.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:19 lisp seems awesome 09:28:29 anyone here using ti for web? 09:29:12 many do 09:29:50 bohanlon` [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 09:30:11 the_unmaker: I dabble a bit with the cl-weblocks for ze web. 09:30:21 how is it? 09:30:24 pretty cool? 09:30:30 no db needed? 09:30:38 or does it store stuff in postgresql etc? 09:31:11 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@128.237.157.100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:31:31 aja, in my regexp code generator i like to refer to the string to be matched against as (target) 09:32:01 but i had to make it a macro, because if it is an inline function the compiler stops expanding it after a while 09:33:17 gzip4 [n=xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 09:35:53 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:36:23 the_unmaker: Well I like it for what I do. And you can store stuff off in some sql database, sure! 09:36:44 I remember paul graham just stored stuff in files for viaweb 09:37:38 That works too if you enjoy that way of doing things. 09:37:45 c|mell: You mean you want to establish a binding? 09:37:47 some say that wont scale 09:37:54 is it a matter of programming it right? 09:38:07 It's always a matter of programming it right. 09:38:26 how many users are you expecting and how many data elements per user to store in separate files... 09:38:29 But postgresql is specialised at doing what it does, so I dunno why one would expect to do something better. 09:38:30 that's the question. 09:38:43 Or why one would want to reinvent the wheel. 09:38:55 But it all depends on size and what yer doing, of course. 09:40:02 depending on the problem, a database isn't always the best solution 09:40:05 hm 09:40:10 Say you have a webstore with 1,200,000 items. Each with id, name, and other various stuff. an sql backend seems a good bet. 09:40:11 ah. heh. what he said 09:40:25 If not only for the fact that you can interface to it with other software. 09:40:54 the_unmaker: Also I think that the general consensus is that if Graham does one thing, you do the opposite ;) 09:41:02 no way 09:41:05 whys that 09:41:20 gosh pidgin is annoying 09:41:42 it makes this chat top so it keep going over my youtube of warhammer online lol 09:42:45 the_unmaker: Well I'm not so involved in the matter, but he seems to not enjoy Common Lisp so much, and his coding style suggests that maybe he really should be using scheme. 09:42:55 Specifically he seems to dislike anything OO :) 09:42:59 schme_, that's my observation too. 09:43:09 he wrote that CLOS is too much 09:43:11 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@admin161-3.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:43:12 schme_, that could've been because of clisp's licensing of CLOS. 09:43:20 he said somethign about having random access to oo abilities 09:43:22 or something 09:43:31 whatever that is supposed to mean... 09:43:32 licensing? 09:43:43 Well it's GPL or something. 09:43:47 yes. don't remember the full story, it's in a LICENSE or README somewhere. 09:44:04 schme_, it was specifically about the CLOS though. if you use it, you must give out the source to your app or some such. Was discussed here a few days ago. 09:44:05 tcr, what do you mean about establishing a binding? at the moment the string is stored in *target* 09:44:06 RMS claims another victim (: 09:44:06 oh gpl vs say bsd? 09:44:31 tic: I don't doubt that he could have written his own CLOS implementation if he wanted to though. 09:44:34 I find lisp haskell and forth interesting 09:44:42 the_unmaker: Congrats. 09:44:42 and sometimes remember smalltalk 80 09:44:46 the_unmaker, CLOS is in fact not at /all/ too much. It's at once more powerful and simpler than e.g. Python's object system. Multimethods for the win. 09:44:57 hm 09:45:01 schme_, tiny-CLOS exists for Scheme. 09:45:09 c|mell: Oh, I was trying to make sense of what you wrote to perhaps provide some help. What is it that you think you have to use macros for? 09:45:10 Well in some schemes anyway :) 09:45:22 once you learn lisp does it make things very easy 09:45:24 the_unmaker, you should really reed "generic functions: object re-orientation" (iirc) in Practical Common Lisp 09:45:31 even easier than using other interpreted langs? 09:45:32 the_unmaker, it's a programming language... 09:45:52 you know I think I have to read touretsky first 09:45:55 the_unmaker, Lisp isn't interpreted, by the way. By far most compilers produce native machine code. 09:45:57 the_unmaker: Lisp is compiled since thirty years 09:45:59 because ch2 of pcl kinda got me 09:46:06 oh ok 09:46:07 http://www.paulgraham.com/reesoo.html is about pg and OO 09:46:08 the_unmaker, so read it again! Experiment until you get it. 09:46:14 ok 09:46:21 so pcl over trouetsky? 09:46:27 gentle whatever 09:46:27 tic: if I hade enough free time and boredom I'd do an Arc-CLOS :) 09:46:28 the_unmaker, what I like about Lisp is that it allows me to extend the language as I please. 09:47:04 the_unmaker, I haven't read David's book, but what I _can_ say is that PCL was the book that eventually gave me the "ahh!" feeling. 09:47:10 the_unmaker: You mean the database chapter? You're not supposed to understand everything in there at that point. 09:47:28 tic: Read both books, hack some code. 09:47:31 eeh 09:47:35 schme_, yessir! 09:47:40 the_unmaker: Read both books, hack some code. 09:47:45 tic: That came to the wrong person :( 09:48:00 is that you gavino? 09:48:34 How's that Lisp FAQ site coming along? Is the guy responsible for it around on irc? 09:48:36 oh ok 09:48:41 so im not a simpleton 09:48:52 its just meant to not be understod and give some examples? 09:49:04 Right. Continue reading and it'll fall into place. 09:49:05 ok 09:49:09 ok awesome 09:49:11 ltr 09:49:15 -!- the_unmaker [n=g@cpe-76-166-187-100.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 09:50:06 It seems that a lot of people come here with the mindset that CL is strictly functional programming ? 09:50:30 kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:41 no, but that Lisp is, and that all Lisps are equal. 09:51:48 after-all, this channel is named #lisp. 09:52:10 install a 302 to #common-lisp? 09:52:23 :) 09:52:24 tic: I don't think he frequents this channel. 09:52:26 common knowledge about lisp is outdated 09:52:55 tcr, alright. do you remember the URL. 09:53:17 doesn't minion know about the faq? 09:53:17 tcr, the reason i changed to macros is that it made the regexp matcher twice as fast 09:53:24 minion, faq 09:53:25 faq: The comp.lang.lisp FAQ Document is in a parlous state. http://www.cliki.net/faq 09:54:07 all the (target) function was, was a (locally (declare (type ... *target* )) *target*)) 09:54:11 c|mell: *the* regex matcher for cl is already faster than Perls... 09:54:18 no it isn't 09:54:21 c|mell: why invent your own? 09:54:22 Right here we have coffee. Now to hack some code. 09:54:23 i did some tests 09:54:25 cl-ppcre 09:54:34 perl is actually very good 09:54:38 Btw, does anyone know how to convert a postgresql db -> sqlite? 09:54:50 (yes, wrong channel, yada yada) 09:55:28 I didn't mean to say that it's not. only that cl-ppcre is better for very common cases 09:55:33 schme_: doesnt 'sqlite dump' output sql? 09:55:45 ehu, i highly doubt that 09:55:48 tic: http://genos.mus.br/lispfaq/ -- I don't like the sectioning, fwiw. 09:55:57 do you have a test case i can see? 09:56:05 c|mell: your own tests? 09:56:19 i will run them now just a minute 09:56:24 c|mell: you seem to be in need for very fast systems, indeed! 09:57:03 Hmmm.. 09:57:32 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:57:39 H4ns1: I tried to dump my pgsql database, and load it into sqlite but it ran into some problems. Don't quite remember what it was :) 09:57:40 H4ns1, to get my webserver up to speed i made some faster regexps 09:58:08 schme_: i guess that the sql needs tweaking, but that should be doable 09:58:27 c|mell: what do you need a fast web server for? do you run a high traffic website? 09:58:40 no it is just for fun 09:59:05 i was seeing if i could get a moderately dynamic website up to the same speed as lighttpd 09:59:12 the answer is no, so far 09:59:26 ofcourse not. 09:59:31 but it is going at 2.5k requests per second per core 09:59:33 c|mell: not suprising, but also not a very good question to ask. 09:59:35 don't try to bullshit us 09:59:40 so not too far off 09:59:44 H4ns1: Well I'll just keep kicking it then. I do *not* want to do it by hand. :) 09:59:58 schme_: write a converter! 10:00:13 tcr, thanks. 10:00:18 okay ehu want to bet 10:00:22 H4ns1: I was hoping there was one :) But oh well. 10:00:26 Woe is me ;) 10:00:33 it is written in pure lisp, no c 10:00:37 Anyway, postmodern is strictly for pg ? 10:00:41 tic: The faq is discussed at the cl-gardeners mailing list. 10:00:50 c|mell: no. no bets. don't try to involve me in the impossible. 10:00:58 schme_: usually, people stay with one database and don't convert often because it is painful :) 10:01:07 tcr, and neither do I. I'd much prefer a KISS approach with a flat page w/ sections. Then grow the structure as required. 10:01:19 tic: That's what I suggested. 10:01:40 in my tests cl-ppcre takes 70-80ms to search 1M 10:01:51 but perl takes 11ms 10:02:02 my regexps take 4ms 10:02:08 H4ns1: Ya. I can clearly see why. My issue is that I got the data in an odd format exported from some microsoft db thing, and postgres had some neatness that made it easy to import it. However I don't really *want* to use postgres 'cause it's more of a personal app where the db needs to be distributed with the app. 10:02:22 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:02:36 I guess the safe bet will be cl-sql, it seems to work with whatever I go with regardless. 10:02:38 schme_: maybe you can export from microsoft into csv and just use that, in memory 10:02:46 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-115-98.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:49 Saves me later rewrite from postmodern -> cl-sql 10:02:59 c|mell: You may have to tweak some variable such that cl-ppcre will not try to match unicode. 10:03:10 H4ns1: Oh I only have the bizarre file, not the actual microsoft thing. But it seems to be some csv thing. 10:03:35 and cl-ppcre has some fast memory-aggressive matcher 10:03:45 H4ns1: Not especially looking forward to loading it all up into CL and write something to go through the 15k or so entries though :) 10:03:52 tcr, do you find cl-gardeners an interesting mailing list? 10:04:24 Ah well. something will be sorted out. 10:04:32 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:04:53 tic: It's mostly quiet, so it doesn't hurt subscribing to it; it's available via gmane, too, so you don't even need to really subscribe to it. 10:05:09 h4ns: what other steps were there preventing a new Hunchentoot release? 10:05:47 ehu: edi is not happy with the state that hunchentoot is in, but he did not find the time to clean up yet 10:05:47 tcr, good point. 10:06:33 subodh_shivapuja [i=c142c881@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-33ea3c12d18f0c52] has joined #lisp 10:09:38 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:10:00 kidd2 [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:05 *tic* subscribes 10:15:34 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:18:59 adeht: I recall that you said that the c-l.net migration lost a mail of you regarding with-readtable-iterator; could I beg you to resend it? 10:19:35 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:20:55 MY GOD! 10:20:57 I got it converted. 10:21:08 I just had to remove some oddities from the pgsql dump :) 10:21:25 Now on to cl-sql. 10:22:06 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:27 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-185a4308327ad8a2] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 10:25:34 ehu: Does ABCL include an *inspector-hook* by now? 10:25:38 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 10:27:00 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has joined #lisp 10:29:44 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 10:29:51 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 10:29:58 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:32:28 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:42:20 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:43:37 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:45:52 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has quit ["leaving"] 10:51:57 Eleanore [n=a@c-f172e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:53:11 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:54:16 phytovor [n=doxtor@BSN-143-99-235.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:45 mooglenorph [n=marco@admin161-243.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 10:59:02 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:05:53 Hi. 11:06:01 Are the CSS features of parenscript gone> 11:06:02 ? 11:06:23 I just pulled from git, and I can't find the css-inline function referred to in the manual. 11:06:49 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.182] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:07:33 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:07:50 milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.182] has joined #lisp 11:08:20 Nevermind. They did indeed remove that functionality, in case anyone wonders.. (found out on the mailing list) 11:08:34 Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 11:09:24 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.182] has quit [Client Quit] 11:09:42 kleppari_ [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 11:12:21 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:13:42 hello, i have a problem with lexical scoping. i am trying to setfing a place but setf will not do what i want because i am using it on a variable in a let form. is there a function that will change the original place and not the local? i am pasting a code snippet in a second to make clear what i mean 11:13:47 krumholt pasted "problem with lexical scope" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69550 11:16:32 krumholt: You have to define a (setf search-kb) function. If search-kb is an accessor of a class or a structure, such a function is automatically provided. 11:16:38 kami- [n=user@p4FD3A751.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:16:45 hello 11:17:41 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:18:19 krumholt: places are not first-class in Common Lisp, so they can't be the values of local variables. 11:22:32 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:23:09 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 11:23:43 *beach* wonders whether many people expect a[i] to change in { int n = a[i]; n++;} 11:27:53 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:29:38 I'm playing around with clsql here and I read connection-spec is (filename &optional init-function) with filename being a string representing the filename of the sqlite3 db. So I try (connect ("foo")) and it says illegal function call. Anyone have any ideas? 11:30:21 ' 11:30:36 Hah 11:30:39 Thanks :) 11:30:49 ;-) 11:31:00 *schme_* heads back to the repl in shame. 11:31:22 too much of c++? lol 11:31:42 Well day after halloween party ;) 11:31:54 is it working now? 11:32:18 Yup. 11:32:22 peace 11:32:52 20 minutes I tell you. 20 minutes :) 11:33:00 And you solve it in on keystroke. 11:33:05 Do I need to do anything in particular to get CSS styles applied in hunchentoot? 11:34:41 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 11:38:12 Ah, nevermind... got it. I needed to make a dispatch function for my css file. 11:38:44 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D790.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:04 hi, i am lost. maybe i am thinking wrong about this. i try to describe my problem: i have a list stored in *my-list* a global variable. all i want to do ist alter this list. but the list is made up of several sublist and there is a complex search algorithm to find the correct sublist. so (search *my-list*) will return the sublist to be altered. know when (setf (search *my-list*) some-new-list) this will alter *my-list* at all. tcr sug 11:41:04 gest defining a setf for (search. is this the only way to do this? 11:43:51 krumholt: no, you can make sure each sublist starts with a sentinel so that you can always modify it. 11:44:44 beach, what is a sentinel? 11:44:48 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E449DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 11:45:39 krumholt: I think you need to read a text book about algorithmics. That's a standard trick. Perhaps Wikepedia will tell you. It's a dummy object with the sole purpose of simplifying your algorithms. 11:46:34 -!- subodh_shivapuja [i=c142c881@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-33ea3c12d18f0c52] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 11:48:40 The sentinel suggestion is cute, but it may result in keeping pointers to lot of garbage over time if you're not careful. 11:50:03 tcr: He asked whether it was the only way. I just answered the question. 11:50:10 so a sentinel would be a reference to the object itself? ok that is a solution but just not what i want. 11:50:33 krumholt: what do you want then? 11:50:49 i think what i want is my search function to return the original object 11:51:42 beach: It wasn't my intention to discredit your solution, not at all. 11:52:17 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-171-245.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 krumholt: OK, so obviously what I said before wasn't clear then. Here is an example. Suppose the sublist you return is empty. That is represented by thy symbol NIL. You cannot expect to modify NIL in order to put elements on that empty list. 11:52:22 Just wanted to make sure that if he does it this way that he implements it properly. 11:52:29 tcr: OK. 11:52:44 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:52:59 krumholt: do you know any other programming langauges? 11:53:04 yes 11:53:15 krumholt: C or C++? 11:53:22 yes and java 11:53:33 in c i would return a pointer to the sublist 11:53:51 krumholt: but that could be NULL, so you can't alter NULL. 11:54:18 beach: I presume he only wants to modify a list if an actual list can be found. 11:54:21 no the pointer could reference an empty list. 11:54:38 if there is non i'd do nothinig 11:55:18 but if i find a list i could easily alter it with mypointer->whatever 11:55:27 krumholt: You can just return the list, and modify that list. That works for adding elements, it won't work for deleting the last element in a list. 11:55:34 krumholt: are you saying that if the sublist happens to be empty, you will never want to add an element to it, and if it is not empty, you will never want to remove the first element? 11:55:36 doesn't that depend on if the object is immutable or not? 11:55:52 krumholt: If you return a list, what you actually return is a pointer to the list in Lisp. 11:56:21 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:56:35 so returning a list would be a pointer to that list? 11:56:52 Yes 11:57:16 krumholt: It would be a pointer to the first cons cell, to be precise. 11:57:18 so if i do (cons 'a (search *my-list*)). *my-list* would be altered? 11:57:40 No, what makes you think that it would? 11:58:09 krumholt: CONS does not modify any of its arguments. 11:58:31 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c-f172e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:59:03 ah ok i think i have it thanks 12:00:14 krumholt: (let ((thing (search *something* ...))) (nsubstitute (munge thing) thing *something*)) ; assuming all things in *something* are unique 12:00:28 subodh_shivapuja [i=c142c881@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-de755de8f6ecb7dd] has joined #lisp 12:03:20 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:03:34 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:03:44 etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-51-213.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:55 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:04:19 ok thanks everyone. i think i have an idea now what i have to do. i'll try a few things 12:07:24 My god. 12:07:25 the waiting. 12:07:35 oh wrong channel. 12:12:37 -!- subodh_shivapuja [i=c142c881@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-de755de8f6ecb7dd] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 12:14:57 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@adsl-69-208-71-189.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:57 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@adsl-69-208-71-189.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [K-lined] 12:15:28 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA0C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:16:19 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:48 -!- etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-51-213.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:19:21 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 12:21:43 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 12:25:59 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:15 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 12:26:16 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:26:35 Right. So who has something entertaining while I wait for the sqlite? :) 12:26:50 .read foo has been going for an hour now. 12:28:53 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 schme_, maybe you can answer my off-topic question: is bash_profile /never/ run when you start a terminal in X? 12:30:14 tic: man bash 12:30:22 tic: Isn't it .bashrc then? 12:30:23 it outlines which startup files are read and when 12:30:58 :) 12:31:12 Is there an SBCL way to see how much room an object takes up? 12:31:49 schme_: i asked this a bit ago, apparently not; best you can do is call (room) before and after making it 12:32:08 lichtblau has a program to show the sizes of various things 12:32:09 Oh ok. 12:32:19 schme_: which object? 12:32:20 Xach: Any idea where it's at? 12:32:23 yes, just a sec 12:32:38 Hmm.. some dao-object I had postmodern create. 12:32:42 jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:32:49 Hi 12:32:51 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 12:32:59 I'm not using it anymore, I was just curious. It seems I ran out of heap when I created a bit too many of 'em. 12:33:10 Xach, Hm. The man page actually gave me some useful info. Last time I couldn't make much sense of ita. Thanks for reminding me. 12:33:17 Hello jbjohns. And yes, you may ask a question. 12:33:19 -!- H4ns2 [n=Hans@p57BB9AB4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:33:22 I am looking at the test suites, is LIFT the most popular one? I thought FiveAM looked nice because of its constraint stuff 12:33:28 oh. :) 12:33:33 thanks schme_, just a slow typer today. :) 12:34:01 speaking of testing, is there a QuickCheck-like randomized testing framework for CL? 12:34:01 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm89.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:34:01 jbjohns: Well I was expecting a "can I ask a question?". Hope you are not too offended. 12:34:19 tic: There is one. I don't know how good it is. 12:34:22 I'm not so sensitive. At least not about things like that. :) 12:34:29 tcr, remember the name? 12:34:31 jbjohns: there is an extensive review of a bunch of them, and fiveam pretty much came out the winner there along with one other one, let's see... 12:34:42 oh wonderful, thanks 12:34:50 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm89.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:35:39 tic: http://www.accesscom.com/~darius/software/clickcheck.html 12:36:00 tcr, thanks! 12:36:19 tic: I'd love to see it being taken care of, and perhaps some blog post about its status. 12:36:25 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@admin161-243.hampshire.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:36:45 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 12:37:00 jbjohns: http://aperiodic.net/phil/archives/Geekery/notes-on-lisp-testing-frameworks.html 12:37:34 tcr, no activity since 2004 it seems. 12:38:18 tcr, "we" invented QC at Chalmers UoT, so we used it for lab assignments. I found it really useful. 12:38:29 schme_: http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/dot/ 12:38:30 tic: I meant a status report on its feature set. 12:38:40 tcr, I see. 12:39:10 schme_: iirc the main source of confusion is answering "where does an object end?" 12:39:21 Xach: Thanks. I'll look that up :) 12:39:23 oh fun. 12:39:31 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:40:15 any clues about "The value NIL is not of type SB-C::CLEANUP." in sbcl 1.0.21 (and yes it is compiling something pretty huge) 12:42:02 c|mell: May very well be a compiler bug. Try to come up with a reduced test case. 12:43:08 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178054155.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:43:15 it is something to do with massive functions and mem-ref from cffi 12:43:29 i have made my function smaller 12:43:44 and it compiles now 12:43:52 patco444 [n=pldianov@212.25.60.98] has joined #lisp 12:43:55 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:44:37 -!- patco444 [n=pldianov@212.25.60.98] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:46:08 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@24.143.65.167] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:50:52 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:50:53 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:51:30 subodh_shivapuja [i=c142c881@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5b6c4de58f68f3a9] has joined #lisp 12:55:38 tcr, unfortunately it seems to be intimately related to my war with the inline expansion limit 12:56:04 i changed one last tiny inline function to a macro and put the main function back 12:56:08 and it compiles now 12:57:24 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:31 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:54 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:58:55 metawilm [n=willem@e179027097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:59:38 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:00:48 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:01:05 josemanuel [n=josemanu@87.222.0.255] has joined #lisp 13:03:11 why doesn't sbcl honour SIGTSTP? 13:04:41 *nikodemus* hugs format 13:04:56 "<~(~A~)~{ ~(~A~)=~S~}~:[>~;/>~]~{~A~^~%~}~@[~]" 13:05:19 bastard son of BF and APL. 13:05:58 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:06:36 nikodemus: we need FORMAT pretty-printer for cases like that :) 13:11:43 locklace: thanks a lot (sorry, was afk eating) 13:12:38 pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 13:12:44 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has left #lisp 13:12:53 sig stop? No process gets a chance to honour that. You mean sig start? 13:14:32 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-6ffe886e1dcc5fa2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:16:05 dialtone [n=dialtone@c66-235-11-118.sea2.cablespeed.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:39 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:58 tcr: I will resend it. 13:19:41 c|mell [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:20:05 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:20:16 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:21:16 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-dadeec609c7d3fd4] has joined #lisp 13:23:38 jbjohns: no, SIGTSTP, it can be caught/ignored (unlike SIGSTOP), which sbcl is apparently doing 13:24:11 so you (or at least i) can't suspend it with ^Z 13:24:14 aha, different signal 13:24:36 ^Z is something else, that's a shell convenience 13:24:41 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 13:24:53 locklace: works for me. 13:24:54 try doing a kill -STP on the process 13:25:07 kill -STOP or whatever 13:25:24 jbjohns: it's not something else, it's how you send SIGTSTP ;) 13:25:38 Xach: really? that's interesting 13:26:59 no ^Z is what the shell uses for sending sig stop *by default* 13:27:31 interactive commands (e.g. vi/vim/emacs) usually remap that key so they can catch the key and do some cleanup before doing a kill stop on themself 13:28:08 open an emacs window and do a ^Z, then start it again, go to another window and send a kill -STOP and watch the difference 13:28:48 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:29:43 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.241.93] has joined #lisp 13:30:43 adeht: Rob Warnock made me realize a bug. My merge-readtable does not account for characters with a modified character attribute which are not reader-macro chars. 13:34:40 pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 13:35:10 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D7D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:35 segv [n=mb@p4FC1C9BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:09 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:37 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-24-5.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:38:57 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 13:39:20 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-24-5.dip.osnanet.de] has left #lisp 13:40:23 jbjohns: i think you're a bit confused. ^Z is the default character associated with the 'susp' interrupt by the terminal i/o system. when the susp character is received by the terminal, SIGTSTP is sent to all processes in the foreground process group for which the terminal is the controlling terminal. 13:41:09 suspend, that might be right 13:41:36 it's catchable, so interactive programs like editors can catch it and respond however they like 13:43:10 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d4bb6458f4986e54] has joined #lisp 13:43:18 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:43:37 aha, I always thought ^Z was stop. Well, thanks for the clarification then. All signals are catch able except stop and kill, I just didn't know about this tty stop 13:44:01 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16BAEF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:46:45 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-171-245.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:47:05 thomas001 [n=quassel@p54B74F75.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:44 however this susp weirdness may not be sbcl after all, looks like maybe some shell or linux interference. i should try it on a real operating system 13:50:39 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.241.93] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:52:34 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.196.118] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:55:30 a fresh sbcl instance on this linux x86-32 platform seems to have a virtual memory footprint of 536mb, is that normal? 13:59:00 LiamH [n=nobody@138.88.126.7] has joined #lisp 13:59:51 yes. 14:00:13 the great thing about virtual memory is that is, er, virtual 14:03:06 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:12 ok, i see this is because it reserves a bunch of heap up front and this can be controlled with --dynamic-space-size 14:03:25 it reserves virtual memory for the heap 14:03:27 this is not an issue! 14:03:40 Many other dynamic languages do the same thing, too. Look at how much virtual memory Firefox or the JVM uses. 14:03:44 "uses". 14:04:18 chandler: sure, just making sure i understand the memory strategy it's using 14:05:03 what is the preferred sdl library? i started using lispbuilder-sdl, but i had to look at the source because a lack of documentation...they don't seem to use unwind-protect in their with-foo macros,which something like scares me 14:05:20 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.65.25] has joined #lisp 14:05:21 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:07:15 rsynnott: after some comments from Gary, I've updated the Solaris x86-32 port from  to . 14:07:20 chandler: although passing --dynamic-space-size doesn't seem to change this, what am i missing? 14:08:09 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:29 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:10:45 hi all 14:11:10 hi dagnachew. 14:11:13 lichtblau [n=user@pD9540067.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:12:28 I bought the little schemer and seasoned schemer are there any starting tutorial on scheme ? becuase the books are a bit advanced 14:13:11 See #scheme 14:13:28 minion, tell dagnachew about that-dead-sexy-book 14:13:29 dagnachew: please see that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 14:13:43 If you want to learn about Common Lisp, that is an excellent book, freely available online. 14:14:48 dagnachew: The Little Scheme is not advanced at all, it's an introduction for non-programmers... 14:15:02 Eleanore [n=a@c-4670e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:15:03 it's quite good though 14:15:17 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:15:20 ok 14:16:07 dagnachew: The Little Schemer's presentation is unusual, but it doesn't assume you know anything. Think of it as a series of puzzles. 14:16:16 dagnachew: but it's perhaps monographic. It only teach functional recursive programming (or at least, the previous edition, "The Little Lisper" did). 14:16:24 minion, I should read first Practical Common Lisp ? 14:16:25 common lisp is good 14:16:40 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:16:40 dagnachew, if you want to learn Common Lisp, then PCL is a fine book. 14:16:48 minion, ever the missionary 14:16:49 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 14:16:52 wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:03 minion, what do you think about scheme? 14:17:03 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 38 seconds is too many. 14:17:21 lol 14:17:49 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D790.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:17:50 dagnachew: Common Lisp and Scheme are different. If you want Scheme in particular, #scheme is a better place to be. 14:17:58 ofcourse I have the quintesential book Structure and Interpretation of Computer programs , plus the 10 MIT videos 14:18:05 but that one is for later 14:18:35 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:35 dagnachew: Well, SICP is also for beginners, and with a more traditional approach ... kind of. 14:18:56 sellout, sicp ? 14:19:05 minion: sicp 14:19:05 sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 14:19:16 dagnachew: you've got to learn who to ask here! :-) 14:19:22 ;-) 14:20:04 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:20:56 minion: what does sicp stand for? 14:20:56 Suchwise Impiousness Clanfellow Postramus 14:20:57 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@61.149.75.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:21:00 (and how to ask) 14:21:06 (-: 14:23:33 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:38 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.196.118] has joined #lisp 14:27:28 nurv101 [n=askmefor@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 14:27:44 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:33:02 locklace: you are probably not passing it in the right place (assuming you have multiple commandline arguments) 14:33:42 it needs to be in the part parsed by the runtime, that is, before things like --userinit, --eval, --load, etc 14:33:52 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has joined #lisp 14:34:45 nikodemus: "sbcl --dyamic-space-size 64" 14:34:54 oops 14:35:10 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:35:37 fixing the typo helps ;) 14:37:28 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:37:33 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has joined #lisp 14:38:13 i get a menorah when i start clisp 14:38:22 gjvc: good for you! 14:38:40 oy vey! 14:40:44 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:42:03 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has joined #lisp 14:44:59 milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.233] has joined #lisp 14:45:18 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0F35.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:46:15 looks like sbcl's git mirror wasn't updated since 1.0.21.37 14:46:58 benny [n=benny@i577A0F35.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:39 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:48:03 outdated files - that's not unique to sbcl.. cousin cmucl also has confusing releases.. look at : 14:48:05 http://common-lisp.net/project/cmucl/downloads/release/19e/ 14:48:06 vs 14:48:16 http://common-lisp.net/project/cmucl/downloads/binaries/ 14:48:46 The index.html notes that /binaries are fresher/recent than /release 14:48:49 cousin is an interesting wording. 14:50:31 s/cousin/dad 14:51:10 I wonder why the two directories for cmucl are out of sync 14:51:37 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:51:53 c|mell [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:52:39 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:56:41 adeht: which one? at boinkor seems to be up to date 14:57:39 I'm talking about the repo.or.cz one; the boinkor one doesn't seem to respond here :/ 14:57:58 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@203-165-96-155.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit ["bye"] 14:58:50 adeht: repo mirrors boinkor. 14:59:17 adeht: it doesn't respond? I'd like to debug this if possible (: 14:59:30 pkhuong: yes, that's what it says 14:59:36 antifuchs: lemme try again 14:59:43 (are you using git:// or http://?) 15:00:05 responds from here using git:// 15:01:18 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:01:56 antifuchs: git://sbcl.boinkor.net/sbcl 15:02:05 disumu [n=disumu@p57A24835.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:05 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:20 sounds right 15:02:34 gah, I wish I had better internet connectivity right now 15:02:40 i tried git://git.boinkor.net/sbcl 15:03:54 they should work the same... 15:04:30 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 15:04:40 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:04:45 yes, they do 15:05:11 *adeht* pulls out ethereal 15:05:51 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:07:44 Anyone know why use can you format to add commas to integers but not floats? 15:07:50 it connects, but then I get lost segments, dups, and retransmissions 15:08:10 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:08:11 weird, adeht 15:08:11 zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-70-253-174-144.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:36 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:16 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D790.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:37 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:19:49 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has joined #lisp 15:21:11 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:21:13 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:21:25 -!- bohanlon` is now known as bohanlon 15:21:38 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084218.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 15:22:57 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:22:58 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A24835.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:24:35 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has joined #lisp 15:26:06 disumu [n=disumu@p57A24835.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:41 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:20 mulligan [n=user@e177081047.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:27:53 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:14 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:16 crod [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:32:46 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:37 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092414]"] 15:35:38 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-133.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:36:38 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has joined #lisp 15:37:53 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:45:22 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:56 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:47:02 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:49:56 how do i temporarily disable lisp-mode for a buffer? i see that (lisp-mode) doesn't take any arguments... (i asked that already in #emacs, but silence followed) 15:50:26 M-x fundamental-mode 15:50:52 thanks 15:51:25 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 15:55:31 -!- cajetanus_ [n=cajetanu@aapq121.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has left #lisp 15:57:54 *tic* seeks hacking inspiration... 15:58:16 tic: lisp forums/lispOS 15:58:24 tic: I thought you were busy vimifying climacs? 15:58:39 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:03 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084218.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:03:25 tic: write a lisp for avr32 :) 16:04:24 Hun, rather a Lisp implementation for avr/atmega. should already exist one? 16:04:59 i haven't found a working CL... though i didn't search very long 16:05:45 schme_, not really - although I've tried CLifying Vim. My initial experiments show that ECL scripts are run in a fresh image somehow, because rebinding *package*, or (vim:msg ...) doesn't do anything at all. 16:05:54 s/fresh image/fresh environment/ 16:06:21 Hun: did you try clisp? 16:06:36 not yet. i'm still building a fresh toolchain 16:06:48 It's probably not possible to fit CL in an Atmega. 16:06:52 i have about 1.5M free on this uC. might be tight 16:06:55 Hun: I think it's the one that have the best chances. It's quite portable :) 16:07:07 Hun, that's quite a lot. 16:07:29 Anyway.. I'm looking at doing charts. bar charts specifically. Anyone know of any purty lisp package for this? 16:07:31 the problem is to separate raed-only from read-write parts of the image in memory. 16:07:32 yes for a lisp, but maybe no CL 16:07:43 schme_, Xach's futzing with that. 16:07:47 yep. avr32 is pure harvard afaik 16:07:54 schme_, eh, nm. I was thinking of pies. 16:08:00 Hmmm. 16:08:10 tic: Maybe you should go eat. :P 16:08:17 If you are thinking of pies. 16:08:39 I found adw-charting.. which does charts. 16:08:41 Just not bar charts. 16:09:17 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:09:19 (I would like to avoid going through gnuplot) 16:10:24 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 16:10:41 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 16:11:10 schme_: not lisp, but i've gotten some use out of http://ploticus.sourceforge.net/ 16:11:23 *schme_* looksies 16:11:29 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Client Quit] 16:11:31 schme_: consider using the google chart api, if it's for web 16:11:52 metawilm: It's not for the web. 16:12:05 But I'll remember that for later though :) 16:12:14 Thanks a million. 16:12:17 schme_: of course you can save the generated images for offline use 16:12:52 metawilm: I don't quite see the benefit of that compared to using gnuplot then :) 16:13:20 true 16:13:32 better fonts (-: 16:13:35 gnuplot probably gives you higher resolution too 16:13:38 Hehehe. 16:13:46 Resolution is not such a biggie. 16:13:56 But the google idea would be troublesome when I was on the offline. 16:14:03 and wanted to chart something I mean. 16:14:28 they should hurry and make a javascript+canvas solution then (: 16:15:00 Well I guess gnuplot will do for now anyway. 16:15:04 Atleast I can use lisp for the pies. 16:15:13 schme_, less eating, more hacking. 16:15:18 *schme_* needs something to do while sqlite is doing it's stuff. 16:15:35 I have clsql code to try out but sqlite is still generating the darned database. 16:15:37 My god it's slow. 16:15:38 :) 16:15:45 I wish I had someone that shared my bizzare ideas to hack with. 16:16:00 What bizarre ideas are those? 16:16:15 writing a SWANK frontend in Common Lisp inside Vim. 16:16:41 killkernel [n=killkern@relay.gs.ru] has joined #lisp 16:16:48 -!- killkernel [n=killkern@relay.gs.ru] has left #lisp 16:17:21 is it that hard? 16:17:30 metawilm: that ploticus looks very nice actually :) 16:17:53 tic: I think there was a nice image explaining why you can't find anyone wanting to do that.. 16:17:57 hmm 16:18:03 schme_, I've seen it. 16:18:16 ploticus is annoying at times... I wish I understood what its limits for image and plot size are 16:18:50 stassats`, It Depends(tm). Asynch comms needs to be piped through the NetBeans protocol which means I have to write a proxy between SWANK and Vim. It shouldn't be too hard, except I seem to have a problem holding a thought in my head for long enough time to work on it. 16:19:07 NetBeans!? 16:19:11 Isn't that some java thing? 16:19:23 It is, but now the de-facto standard for IPC in Vim. 16:19:31 heh 16:19:41 schme_: yeah, the example at http://ploticus.sourceforge.net/gallery/index.html are great 16:19:50 tic: write your thoughts on a paper 16:19:58 Yes.. 16:20:12 write 'em on paper. Toss paper in waste basket. Install the sxemacs ;) 16:20:32 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 16:21:18 schme_: does slime work on it? 16:21:21 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:21:29 stassats`: Yes. and the paredit. 16:21:50 stassats`, okay, that's a good idea. but it's not only that, but I feel. How shall I put this. Stupid. It's as if I'm able to see the big picture, but can't work out the details. Like things becoming 16:21:57 k_b_d_ [n=kbd_@222.65.131.22] has joined #lisp 16:21:59 stassats`, ...becoming fuzzy once I "zoom in". 16:22:15 Just take it one step at a time :) 16:22:19 morning 16:22:31 tic: don't overanalyze 16:22:42 stassats`, "Don't think, hack"? :) 16:22:46 hello, i am looking for a function that would give me the rest from a certain element of a list for example (func 'b '(a b c d e)) should return (b c d e). is there such a function? 16:22:57 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:03 tic: yep, you can always throw away wrong result 16:23:04 krumholt, CDR/REST ? 16:23:05 member 16:23:15 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177147236.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:16 *tic* shuts up. 16:23:21 member thats it thanks 16:23:29 stassats`, good point. 16:24:09 Didn't that guy who invented the light bulb toss away atleast a thousand ideas anyway? 16:24:15 'cause they didn't work :) 16:24:26 tic: it is thinking too, but not on paper, in code 16:26:58 i can understand the urge to use vim. it combines the leanness of emacs with the user-friendliness of vi 16:27:14 I can understand the urge 'cause it's a nice text editor :) 16:27:51 locklace, to each his own. vim is in my spine, and it's excellent for creating text. and I should be able to beat it into submission so it becomes a fine Lisp editor, too. 16:28:11 tic: of course you can. 16:29:08 Just think of the good feeling you'll have when it's interfacing just sweet with ze swank. 16:30:13 tic: implement elisp for vim and you will get slime for free 16:30:16 Yah. There is in fact already work done on that part, in the SlimVim project. However, they relied on a buggy patch for Vim to provide with asynch. socket support, so it'll have to be slightly reworked. But I hope to be able to reuse most of it. 16:30:21 stassats`, nope. 16:30:37 stassats`, or well, OK, but if I implement elisp I implement emacs. :) 16:31:05 Needless to say the trick is to vimify climacs. 16:31:14 so the rumors go. 16:31:29 Is it difficult to build climacs? 16:31:30 emacs already has vi-mode, let vim has emacs-mode too 16:31:49 stassats`, emacs-mode is precisely what I want to avoid. 16:31:53 tic: (require :climacs) works for me 16:32:09 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 16:32:11 ./clbuild update climacs me thinks. 16:32:35 I assume one could mess it up good enough so it behaves like the vim :) 16:32:44 Hehe 16:33:41 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:33:44 This is incidently why I was asking for a good vim tutorial the other day. 16:33:46 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 16:34:01 schme_, so you have begun working on it? 16:34:17 Nope. 16:34:28 I need to finish this other thing first. 16:34:34 okay, but you do intend to, it seems. 16:34:47 Well it seems a fun way to get hacking on climacs anyway. 16:34:55 I just need to remap my keyboard again. 16:35:00 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-24-5.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:35:02 :) 16:35:06 ah yes. the ctrl brokenness. :| 16:35:37 -!- crod [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:35:59 schme_: doesn't sxemacs use ctl? 16:36:01 Ya the damnedness. 16:36:06 stassats`: ? 16:36:21 What's ctl? :) 16:36:36 the same as ctrl 16:36:40 AH 16:36:44 Well ya, 'course it does :) 16:36:52 I just switched my caps lock and ctrl around. 16:36:52 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-24-5.dip.osnanet.de] has left #lisp 16:37:03 It turned out to be troublesome for me using climacs. 16:37:29 climacs doesn't use ctrl? 16:37:44 Well sure it does. 16:37:47 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:37:53 why was it trouble, then? 16:37:59 It just interprets me hitting ctrl (ie the key marked as caps lock) as.. 16:38:04 C-h it reads as C-H 16:38:08 for example. 16:38:13 wtf? 16:38:19 Indeed. 16:38:24 how did you swap caps and ctrl? 16:38:34 I do it at the X level... 16:38:46 remove Lock = Caps_Lock etc etc. 16:39:08 Ok. What's the X level? 16:39:11 I just use xmodmap. 16:39:31 It seems to have problems with my hyper too. and stuff I mapped there. 16:39:37 not quite there yes, but... 16:39:47 -!- mdxi [n=mdxi@li11-97.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:39:59 http://random-state.net/tmp/sb-doc/ # preliminary html output from package formerly known as sb-texinfo 16:40:06 eeh 16:40:10 not hyper. I meant mode switch. 16:40:11 "setxkbmap -option -option ctrl:nocaps" is how i did that 16:40:16 I was told it was a clx issue. 16:40:18 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-119-195.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:18 that should be fine, i think, but the option I use is Option "XkbOptions" "ctrl:nocaps". You can aso use "ctrl:swapcaps" 16:40:18 Hmm.. 16:40:29 Well ok I'll try that. 16:41:27 hm, climacs seems to be broken in CCL 16:41:29 fuck 16:41:32 that messed everytthing up 16:41:44 Doing that mapped me to qwerty and removed my hyper and super 16:41:47 !!! 16:42:18 haha >_ 16:42:21 oh, first -option clears everything 16:42:25 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 16:42:25 hahahaha 16:42:29 I can't even switch windows now :P 16:42:31 hehe 16:42:34 ok time to try it out then. 16:43:52 I love you sykopomp 16:43:59 hugs accepted 16:44:00 I want to have your babies. 16:44:06 eeew! 16:44:14 Dunno why that worked and xmodmap didn't 16:44:44 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:45:34 Hmm.. 16:45:43 I wonder if there is some documentation on how this bugger works. 16:47:08 themcman [n=matt@ool-4352ab80.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:11 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:48:23 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:48:51 lemoine1 [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:49:25 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:50:43 crod [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:50:47 nikodemus: yay! 16:51:58 -!- lemoine1 is now known as lemoinem 16:52:48 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 16:53:57 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:54:21 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:55:53 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:56:46 -!- r00k [n=ben@216.93.247.56] has left #lisp 16:57:10 k_bd [n=kbd_@222.65.131.22] has joined #lisp 16:58:30 hi, does anybody know any libraries for "text proximity", clustering of similar texts etc.? 17:00:44 Well fun.. Is there an altasmeta switch or somesuch for the climacs? 17:01:08 schme_: eh? 17:01:30 Well I hit what my emacsen interprets as M-x in climacs and that does not do shit :) 17:01:39 But emacs is interpreting my alt as meta. 17:02:06 do you have a meta key? ;) 17:02:13 No. 17:02:20 oh, alt as meta 17:02:32 al tasm eta ;) 17:02:42 *hefner* shrugs 17:03:12 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:29 hikikomori [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has joined #lisp 17:03:30 I suspect not. mcclim expects you to have a meta key. 17:03:34 :P 17:04:11 whats meta key? 17:05:59 Good evening. 17:06:26 hikikomori, normally the alt key 17:06:32 good morning 17:06:42 oh meta key 17:07:10 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:09:04 hikikomori: You must be new here, right? 17:09:17 yes i am topito 17:09:17 kb_d [n=kbd_@222.65.131.22] has joined #lisp 17:09:44 I see. 17:10:05 i been here before asking about changing on the fly lisp code 17:10:17 always fun to debug spanish lisp 17:10:19 yes, I have the logs. 17:10:52 xach do you want to debug spanish lisp? 17:11:54 how can i creat a new list really different from a nother list? i have a function creating a list like (defun foo() '(0 0)) now this list only exists once (becuase of closures?) but i want foo to really return a new list everytime it's called 17:12:26 use (list 0 0) 17:12:54 hikikomori pasted "problem " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69558 17:12:59 -!- crod [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:15 aahhhh thanks qbg. should have figured that out myself, tried for 20 min now ^^ 17:13:17 Do anybody have an idea of whats wrong here? 17:13:17 http://paste.lisp.org/display/69558 17:14:03 crod [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:14:21 hikikomori: what is it doing wrong? 17:14:59 i added this functions to my cod 17:15:00 e 17:15:00 (when (= (sphero-t sphero) 0) 17:15:08 and when i added the code doenst work 17:15:12 dunno why 17:15:27 Are you getting an error? 17:15:50 im gonna try to explain 17:16:27 that code generates a list full of spheres, when the spheres collides each sphere change its color 17:16:36 it was working fine until there 17:16:39 -!- k_b_d_ [n=kbd_@222.65.131.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:04 oudeis [n=oudeis@85-250-111-163.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:17:18 hikikomori: is 't' a floating-point value? 17:17:21 In this line, "(setf (sphero-r sphero) (nth 0 m))", where is m bound? 17:17:22 but i decided about having 3 diferents types of spheres, each one with a diferent color, so i created 3 lists with colors (list 0 0 0) 17:18:14 the idea is that each sphere have a different color and when they collider they all became one color, and when they not collide they come back to its original color 17:18:16 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has joined #lisp 17:18:35 t? 17:18:46 kbd [n=kbd_@222.65.131.22] has joined #lisp 17:18:52 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 17:18:53 where is t? 17:19:04 m bound 17:19:35 inside defun functin gbg 17:19:40 qbg 17:19:43 Wait, are m, n, and o special variables? 17:19:58 whats a special variable? 17:19:59 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:04 It looks like it 17:20:13 :P 17:20:16 because in init you do (setf m (list 1 1 0)) 17:20:35 -!- kbd [n=kbd_@222.65.131.22] has quit [Client Quit] 17:20:40 hikikomori: have you read any book about lisp? 17:20:42 suggestion for new irritating sbcl style-warning 17:21:04 stassats im reading now one called, gentle introduction to simbolic computation 17:21:05 YOU ARE USING SPECIAL VARIABLES. ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO USE SPECIAL VARIABLES? REALLY? 17:21:35 hikikomori: that's a bit of an antiques 17:21:36 -s 17:21:42 hikikomori: Ah, yeah that is a bit old 17:22:01 (though it's actually not bad; my university had roughly a million copies so it was the first lisp book I read 17:22:03 its good 17:22:12 *tic* hands rsynnott an anti-Caps key 17:22:13 gentle introduction is good to understand some lisp concepts 17:22:42 tic: no, I think the warning would work better if it was really irritating 17:23:13 rsynnott, yes, I had to wash my eyes with soap, thankyouverymuch! 17:23:39 rsynnott: why don't you like special variables? they are good 17:23:48 -!- kb_d [n=kbd_@222.65.131.22] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:23:52 hey i think the problem is that it only use the last spheres in the list 17:23:57 only if you know what you're doing ;) 17:23:59 so setf on an unbound symbol creates a special variable? 17:24:05 it just check if the last spheres in the list collide , but not all 17:24:13 stassats`: a particularly common new-person mistake seems to be using them where they should not be, though 17:24:17 tic: it's undefined, iirc 17:24:42 though every implementation i know creates a special variable, with more or less complaining 17:24:54 tic: most implementations seem to do so 17:25:00 sbcl shouts about it 17:25:01 hikikomori: So you problem is that the colors keep changing back, right? 17:25:05 but does it anyway 17:25:07 stassats`, just trying to find said special variables in the paste. I assumed the mnlo variables were that. 17:25:12 rsynnott, *nod* 17:25:14 they doesnt change gbg 17:25:25 all the spheres are black 17:25:31 meingbg pasted "problems installing elephant" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69560 17:25:37 rsynnott: then you need also to introduce new optimize declaration like "newbie" 17:25:37 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 17:25:38 hikikomori: I would look at lines 38-51 17:25:54 Every time you call draw-sphere, you are resetting the sphere's color 17:25:56 tic: but many implementations define them as special, yes 17:26:03 ok im gonna check, thanks 17:26:07 Can anyone help me get elephant working with sbcl? it just wont install. 17:26:24 meingbg: post an error. 17:26:40 qbg im not resseting 17:26:44 sykopomp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/69560 17:27:00 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 17:27:03 im applyin the color that is in variables m n and o 17:27:15 meingbg: asdf is included with sbcl. Just (require 'asdf) 17:27:17 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:27:26 when they collide i have a functiion that change tha values of variables m n o 17:27:31 meingbg: what's the problem? 17:27:43 looks like it has loaded there 17:27:53 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 17:28:03 what happens if you try to open a database? 17:28:29 hikikomori: look at line 107-109 17:28:30 *rsynnott* is always slightly amused by 'sleepycat' 17:28:42 ok 17:29:01 hikikomori: You change m, n, and o, but then you are also changing them back 17:29:04 hikikomori: oh. You're topo__ 17:29:05 >_> 17:29:21 -!- kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 17:29:25 yes sykopomp 17:29:41 topo in spanish is hikikomori 17:29:48 hikikomori is japanese of topo 17:29:55 Oh. 17:30:00 It's a mcclim thing. 17:30:07 I just need to swap 'em around then. 17:30:14 changing them back? 17:30:25 rsynnott: I'll try open a db. 17:30:30 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:30:45 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:30:47 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl10-158-83.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:30:55 *rsynnott* is pretty unfamiliar with the BDB backend, though; I use the postmodern one 17:30:56 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has joined #lisp 17:31:07 qbg wanna see a pic so you can understand better ? 17:31:26 -!- k_bd [n=kbd_@222.65.131.22] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:31:28 hikikomori: Couldn't hurt 17:31:50 hurt? 17:31:52 like pain 17:31:54 ? 17:32:07 is it possible to have (/ 1s0 0s0) result in +infinity as single-float. ? 17:32:39 hikikomori: I mean that you could post a picture if you wanted to 17:32:51 hikikomori: english idiom. having a picture will not make the situation worse 17:32:52 ok im uploading 17:33:07 ah ok 17:34:27 meingbg annotated #69560 with "Trying to load database" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69560#1 17:34:49 here it is 17:34:52 http://www.hypermilk.net/imagenes/agents.png 17:34:54 ooh 17:34:54 rsynnott: There, asks me to recompile and then giving me some memory error. 17:35:03 meingbg: what version of bdb are you using? 17:35:08 and what version of elephant? 17:35:20 is you see only one or 2 agents change its color to black when they collider 17:35:24 thomas001: depends on the implementation. 17:35:31 rsynnott: Berkeley 4.7 17:35:33 but its suppose that all agents change their color 17:35:57 pkhuong: hmm ok if it is not possible portable than i'll check for zero,thanks 17:36:11 meingbg: elephant claims to only work with 4.5 17:36:17 though that may be out of date 17:36:32 also, I'm a little surprised at the error produced 17:36:33 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:55 maybe you should ask on the mailing list; most of them are bdb users 17:37:46 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:37:55 -!- ``Erik__ is now known as ``Erik_ 17:38:06 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host235.190-227-42.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:38:32 oh i discovered the problem 17:39:35 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:43 rsynnott: perhaps i should try with Bdb 4.5? 17:39:44 damm im stupid 17:40:13 meingbg: possibly. are you following the installation instructions in the manual? 17:40:38 qbg annotated #69558 with "fixed?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69558#1 17:41:59 :O 17:42:06 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:42:24 rsynnott: Yes, had to edit Makefile and config.lisp to refer to bdb version 4.7 instead of 4.3. 17:42:33 rsynnott: Is that a problem? 17:42:53 -!- themcman [n=matt@ool-4352ab80.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:43:12 I wouldn't have thought so, but I haven't installed it with BDB for a while 17:43:24 (I used 4.5, as commanded to by the manual) 17:43:33 qbg the problem is that i need to create a list with the color of all agents 17:43:41 rsynnott: What db do you use? 17:43:58 i should put it in a list and do a iteration in the list to change the color of each agente 17:45:00 postgres, using postmodern 17:45:20 but bdb's probably better unless you need multiple physical machines acessing the db at the same time 17:45:36 or unless bdb's draconian licensin situation is an issue for you 17:45:42 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:46:45 hikikomori: Are you wanting to do something like (loop for sphero in l collect (list (sphero-r sphero) (sphero-g sphero) (sphero-b sphero))) ? 17:47:43 rsynnott: postgres is the db system I'm the most comfortable with, and if scalability/licensing are potential future issues, maybe I should try pg instead? In what way is bdb better? 17:47:48 qbg 17:48:15 you code work but they dont come back to the original color when they do not collider 17:48:33 bdb is much faster 17:48:42 agents become back when they collide but they dont come back to the original color when they not collidee 17:48:44 (that is, elephant with bdb is much faster) 17:48:47 *black 17:49:11 the postmodern interface has to contend with network latency and btrees implemented on top of database tables 17:49:29 rsynnott: Are we talking like a factor faster, or complexity-wise faster? 17:50:10 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:50:48 (don't use the CLSQL backend if you can help it; it's very slow) 17:50:58 meingbg: it really depends what you're doing 17:51:28 so for instance, if you're iterating through a hundred thousand objects, and making a few slot reads or changes in each, that's going to be way faster on bdb 17:51:52 because network latency gets in the way with postgres, even if you're using a loopback network 17:52:12 but if you're say doing an index lookup, it'll be slower, but possibly not so much that you'd notice 17:52:33 installing both and testing with your workload might be handy, if you think you might want postgres 17:52:49 the bdb backend is better maintained, though 17:53:12 rsynnott: The application I'm writing will do a lot of aggragate operation (summing, counting) on multiple index constraints 17:53:50 Right. So I got around to setting up a Meta key here, now climacs is giving me that M-f, M-b, M-x, M-whatever is not bound. Though the user manual suggest that they are. What am I doing wrong? 17:53:53 -!- crod [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:12 crod [n=cmell@p3015-ipbf2604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:54:18 qbg annotated #69558 with "something like this then" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69558#2 17:55:34 hikikomori: Something like that should work if I'm understanding what you want now 17:56:00 ok thanks im gonna try 17:56:02 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:25 hikikomori: If it works, it is because you were calling draw-sphere too soon 17:57:03 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:35 Ugh. (setf m ... ) in init should be a LET.o 17:57:43 s/.o/./ 17:57:57 Odd. Describe Bindings suggest that a lot of meta stuff is bound. 18:00:42 rsynnott: allright, I'm trying v4.5 now, thx 4 helpen out 18:01:28 no problem 18:01:41 I think it should work; did for me anyway 18:01:55 Hoh.. 18:01:57 and it's really quite an impressive system once you have it up and running 18:02:10 rsynnott: Just read what you said about avoiding clsql. Is there any alternative when one uses sqlite? 18:02:41 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [] 18:03:26 rsynnott: I believe you, object persistency is almost like a whole database paradigm 18:03:44 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A24835.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:45 schme_: nope 18:03:52 Oh well :) 18:04:01 *schme_* goes back to crying then. 18:04:01 well, it's not a new idea, but it works nicely 18:04:25 schme_: I believe that the big problem is that it has to load whole btrees into memory or something 18:04:40 so it may only be a big issue if you have many instances of a given indexed class 18:04:48 Oh ok. 18:05:00 Probably not a big issue for my use case then. 18:05:04 also, since it's sqlite, you presumably have only one machine involved, so the btrees would be in memory somewhere anyway 18:05:08 so it may not be too bad 18:05:10 Yeah. 18:05:26 rsynnott: Perhaps not new, just for me since I'm coming from using rdbms's. 18:05:33 (you could probably write your own more efficient sqllite backend if you rreally wanted to, of course) 18:05:47 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-115-98.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:23 pitui`` [n=pitui@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:41 Ugh. 18:07:00 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:07:00 fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:18 how can I (read-from-string "263,800,935,206") without stopping on commas ? 18:08:46 what do you want the result to be? 18:08:48 a symbol? 18:08:51 number 18:08:53 Remove the commas ;) 18:09:19 yep, removing the commas first is probably the easiest 18:09:29 and using parse-integer might be marginally more efficient 18:09:41 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has joined #lisp 18:09:43 if I knew how to quickly strip out commas, why would I ask? 18:09:57 (remove #\, :test #'char=) 18:10:13 ok, thank you 18:10:13 (parse-integer (remove #\, "263,800,935,206")) 18:10:43 where's your input coming from, btw? 18:10:55 textfile, msdos land 18:11:09 if it's something with regional settings, you may need to consider the possibility that there'll be decimal points instead of commas 18:11:12 ah 18:11:45 decimal points for pennys, works ok 18:11:59 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 18:13:18 floating point and finances usually don't mix too well. 18:13:29 alas, that's true 18:14:22 meingbg: we have made cl-rdbms (sql, with postgres, sqlite and oracle backends), and cl-perec (and ORM) for persistency... if you just need to access postgres directly then go with postmodern. 18:15:18 -!- bilberth [n=bilberth@c197040.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:15:40 not elephant with bdb for persistance Attila ? 18:15:48 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-049-087.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:58 attila_lendvai: ah, that once has a query compiler 18:15:59 nice :) 18:16:16 (elephant doesn't have proper queries, though there is muttering about dding them on the mailking list) 18:16:43 attila_lendvai: are there any real-world users? 18:16:46 hmm, plan change then perhaps 18:16:59 mccarthy 18:17:27 fph: we tried elephant, but it didn't work that well and we also decided to do the usual ORM stuff, because you can sell that much easier... 18:17:44 I like elephant's approach, in principle 18:17:51 I've never been a great ORM fan 18:17:58 rsynnott: we are running that webapp for the government using cl-perec, cl-rdbms and postgres 18:17:59 attila_lendvai: What exactly did not work with elephant? 18:18:01 though cl-perec looks quite nice 18:18:08 attila_lendvai: which one is this? 18:18:17 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@89-138-219-159.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:18:49 *rsynnott* is shocked that there are government websites written in anything other than bad java by dodgy contractors :) 18:19:06 rsynnott: a webapp to help the budget planning of the hungarian local governments. about 5000 users, 500 at peek, running on a cluster of sbcl's 18:19:13 ah, cool :) 18:19:19 :-O 18:19:26 <``Erik> I've fallen into the habit of deleting all my fasl's every time sbcl gets updated. There's a chunk of code that gets added to an asdf hook to force recompile on outdated fasl on I think cliki, but it's been hit or miss for me 18:19:28 the one that needed to be running yesterday, nice story btw 18:19:36 what does emarsden do that he finds all these bugs in "exotic" Common Lisp implementations such as ABCL and ECL? 18:19:55 <``Erik> ghah, woops, latency induced kbd puke, sorry 18:20:03 meingbg: it was about two years ago when we played with elephant. a lot must have changed since then, like there was only a dbd backend... 18:22:04 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.233] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:22:46 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:23:23 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:25:01 nurv101` [n=askmefor@bl10-158-83.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:25:10 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl10-158-83.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:26:10 attila_lendvai: rsynnott: Now I just found in the elephant documentation that Lisp identity is not preserved after serialization. As I understand it, that means that object that are referenced twice also are stored twice. Am I right? 'cus in that case, my db will grow exponentially instead of linearly leaving elephant useless in my case. 18:27:03 *tic* wouldn't interpret it like that. 18:27:36 http://common-lisp.net/project/elephant/doc/elephant.html#Serialization 18:28:16 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:29:12 what do you mean by "referenced twice"? 18:29:56 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 18:30:16 I think it's a fair trade-off that storing an object under two different keys will be stored twice. 18:30:24 (setq a 3) (setq b (list a a a a a)) (make b persistent) 18:30:26 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:30:33 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:38 will the integer 3 be stored once of five times in bdb over elephant? 18:31:08 easy to test. 18:31:28 make a long string and store it in a list. 18:31:41 -!- pitui`` [n=pitui@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:44 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:31:57 If you to keep identity across serialisations, use persistent objects. 18:32:18 also 18:32:25 how would it store it otherwise? the object and the number of times it occurs and the order? 18:32:45 consider something like cl-prevalence or bknr.datastore. They're pretty fantastic, and fit, I'd say, most database's purpose. 18:32:53 meingbg: it's not important for integers unless they are huge bignums... but it can be interesting for cons cells and clos instances. cl-perec is a CLOS persistency, where slots are mapped to sql columns and object identity is stored in an extra column. (but it also supports :type t for slots, in which case it calls cl-serializer to write the slot value in a blob) 18:33:28 tic: object and 5 pointers to it 18:33:46 stassats`, ahem. yeah. that's one way. 18:34:12 stassats`: right, and the pointers would be at least as large as the representation of #b11. 18:34:40 pkhuong: yep, in that case it doesn't matter 18:34:51 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@85-250-111-163.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:53 oudeis__ [n=oudeis@85-250-255-118.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:38:16 attila_lendvai: I understand it's not a big deal for integers. In my case I have two trees with depth n, all nodes referencing both parent and children, end nodes referencing end nodes in opposite tree. If objects are stored once and referenced with an ID like you say cl-perec do, it means a dbsize of 2e^n which is as good as it'll get, but storing once per reference would mean infinite size in this case due to circular references. Am I 18:38:17 right? 18:39:42 meingbg: there's not much point in any kind of persistency layer that does not preserve object identity. it's just a matter of configuration to define where to preserve and where to ignore it... 18:39:58 Serialisers usually get sharing right. The problem is that if you unserialize the same object graph twice you'll get different objects. 18:40:05 meingbg, dump your image. :-) 18:40:34 tic: that might be an option. 18:41:45 http://rafb.net/p/Nuaiqp34.html is this a bug,or did i do something wrong? 18:41:56 is paste.lisp.org down? 18:41:58 the contract for cl-perec is simple: CLOS instances all preserve their identity, :type t slots are stored using cl-serializer that have finegraned control about identity preservation. and inside a transaction, it's guaranteed that the objects identity in the lisp vm is the same as in the db (but not between different transactions) 18:42:35 tic: I'm sure some people just don't know about it 18:42:39 or are used to that other one 18:43:14 rsynnott, true, I should've checked it myself. (I wasn't being sarcastic) 18:45:32 attila_lendvai: That's where I'm getting to, preserving identity is just as important as preserving data in many situations. Maybe I'm missing something obvious in what you say, but how would cl-perec handle a slot of type t when it's value is set to, say, a cons cell where the car references an object that's already stored? 18:45:38 milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.233] has joined #lisp 18:46:30 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086100.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 18:47:52 meingbg: currently it's calling cl-serializer for each slot value with a new context, so it does not support preserving identity stuff reachable from untyped slot values. it could be done, but i think it would be really stretching the limits of ORM (if it's not stretched enough already) 18:48:00 http://paste.lisp.org/display/69562 ok, paste.lisp.org 18:48:09 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@89-138-219-159.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:12 -!- nurv101` [n=askmefor@bl10-158-83.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:48:38 we rarely use :type t slots and certainly not care about the object identities reachable from there 18:48:39 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@217.201.68.250] has joined #lisp 18:49:08 hello 18:49:20 hello 18:49:29 hoi 18:49:50 hello ehu, cmm :) 18:49:51 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 18:50:39 attila_lendvai: I see, so it's just a matter of how you think about it. But as long as all slots are typed to the appropriate clos type I should be OK with identities, right? 18:51:19 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [] 18:51:30 Well it seems ESC x works, but not M-x . Weirdness in climacs :) 18:51:46 you're the one without a meta key.. 18:51:57 meingbg: if a slot is pointing to another clos instance whose identity is important, then it's called an association, and it behaves as you would expect regarding identities 18:52:12 hefner: I have a meta key now. 18:52:21 hefner: I hit M-x and it says M-x is not bound. 18:52:30 meingbg: ...in cl-perec, that is. 18:53:12 schme_: that is silly, yes. 18:53:35 I'll agree to that. Anyone have any suggestions? 18:53:46 too many variables.. 18:54:03 True true. 18:54:27 When I had an alt-key climacs didn't even detect me hitting Alt-x. Well I guess it detected it, just ignored it. 18:54:31 left anf right meta keys are differently bound.. hefner correct me if I am wrong 18:54:41 Hmm.. 18:54:55 I'll try meta_r 18:54:57 or maybe some other mod# 18:55:01 schme_: you don't have an alt key now? 18:55:04 subodh_shivapuja: there's two different keysyms, yeah 18:55:09 rsynnott: nope 18:55:33 schme_ remapped his keyboard, so it seems he will have to bind them.. 18:55:39 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbc5f7.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:08 rsynnott: Used to be 64 = Alt_L, now it's 64 = Meta_L. And xev agrees. 18:56:13 All doing Mod4 18:56:24 subodh_shivapuja: Though the keybindings list in climacs say that they are bound. 18:56:45 do they work in emacs? 18:57:06 i have Meta_L at mod1 and it works in climacs 18:57:24 attila_lendvai: I'll check out cl-perec 18:57:40 Yes they work just fine in the emacs. 18:57:58 I have Meta_L and Meta_R on mod4 and Alt_L/Alt_R on mod1 and it works 18:58:08 there is a snapshot tar file apparently meingbg, look on cliki 18:58:16 I don't remember how any of this works or is supposed to work. 18:58:34 schme_ .. andy is the best buy to listen to when it come to climacs ;-) 18:58:52 unlikely.. 18:58:55 I looked around and it seems it's mcclim taking care of the actual handling. 18:59:03 Yup. 18:59:07 M-x is not bound. With the Mod1 18:59:20 and ESC x gives me a nice M-x prompt. 18:59:22 heh 19:00:33 *schme_* tries the Meta_R 19:00:53 oh well. 19:01:27 I think I'll try meta with some other clim app. 19:02:00 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 19:03:37 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:06:34 schme_, Xof is still online it seems.. you can ask him about the climacs problem 19:07:59 *rsynnott* wonders about the wisdom of giving a text editor a dirty name 19:08:17 climacs is far from dirty 19:08:23 ? 19:08:52 I suppose it depends on the long vowel sound 19:09:01 *sykopomp* didn't make the association with 'climax' until just now. 19:09:03 when pronounced, it's a dreadful victorian sexual euphemism 19:09:07 hell, it's not "erecltile disorder" or stuff. 19:09:08 climax is dirty? 19:09:11 lol 19:09:22 (had to put fit a"cl" pun in to something...) 19:09:26 (of course, 'sex' is also a dreadful victorian sexual euphemisim; English doesn't have proper words for such things) 19:09:37 sex is in lisp! 19:09:45 everything is a dreadful victorian euphemism (: 19:09:50 lol 19:10:15 bet it is, bet it is, nudge nudge 19:10:32 (okay, clearly I have a dirtier mind than most people here) 19:10:45 sex makes lisp 19:11:01 sexP 19:11:08 t 19:11:14 enough 19:12:21 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:12:39 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.100.214] has joined #lisp 19:15:01 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:17 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:16:51 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:18:02 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:44 varjag [n=eugene@100.80-202-118.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:17 hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:41 Well this seems to be me having some issue with mcclim. 19:26:44 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:46 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 19:27:19 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 19:27:28 the wonderful thing about CL is how easy it would probably be to figure out what is wrong 19:27:29 kidd2 [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:06 Ya it's not :) 19:28:35 I tried adding some gestures on :edit and it's not showing up in the lil whatchamacall it at the bottom. 19:28:46 So that's not so brilliant it seems to me. 19:29:28 With :describe and all working just fine. 19:29:50 hefner: I'd be very happy for suggestions on where to look to figure out what is wrong. 19:30:41 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:31:16 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:29 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-212-207-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:10 *hefner* wonders where his trace output disappears to today.. 19:32:22 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:34:11 -!- thomas001 [n=quassel@p54B74F75.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:06 schme_: I don't know what might be going wrong, but tracing clim-clx::x-event-to-key-name-and-modifiers seems like the place to start 19:35:17 madsj [n=mads@130.227.120.134] has joined #lisp 19:35:42 Ah thanks a bunch. 19:37:43 Hmm.. well that seems right. 19:37:46 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47018.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:49 if that side of things works as expected, you should see something the values #\f, 1024, :|f| as the return value when you hit M-f 19:38:01 Yup. 19:38:21 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70d0a9.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:38:24 :RIGHT-META // 1024 // :META-RIGHT 19:38:36 Well and 0 on the press of course :) 19:38:43 eh 19:38:45 release. 19:38:51 Well it seems I'm in for a whole bunch of fun. 19:38:58 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has joined #lisp 19:39:00 vasa [n=vasa@mm-218-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 19:41:06 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:21 Xof: herep 19:44:06 how do I most easily install slime on debian/Emacs? 19:44:14 meingbg: from source 19:44:19 cvs 19:45:00 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 19:46:46 -!- mulligan [n=user@e177081047.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:47:07 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:48:03 -!- hikikomori is now known as topo 19:48:14 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c-4670e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:50:58 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 19:52:14 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:53:11 besiria` [n=user@ppp083212086203.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 19:54:28 schme_: the next thing to do is investigate how the keyboard event is translated to a gesture 19:54:42 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:55:29 Hey that's a much better plan than reading the clim specs :) 19:55:35 or at least figure out if here's something peculiar about the gesture it produces 19:55:47 You're a smart one, hefner 19:57:25 What bugs me is that binding stuff to hyper, super and the control works like a charm. I'm guessing it's something related to something else here. 19:58:14 although es::esa-read-gesture still returns a keypress event, but at least if you replaced its finally clause with (progn (describe gesture) (return gesture)) you could see that it appeared to have the correct character and modifier 19:58:39 it'd probably be more productive to debug this top down, but the top layers (climacs, drei, esa) aren't things I hack on 20:00:32 My god that's cool stuff right there. 20:01:13 And of course it's correct :) 20:01:57 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0D21D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:02:04 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 20:02:11 what does ESA stand for? 20:02:23 emacs-style application 20:02:35 a sort of framework on top of clim 20:02:47 I see, thanks. 20:03:00 are CLIM applications often defined as layers, like ESA? 20:03:06 sellout [n=greg@pool-68-160-6-164.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:18 I see.. so climacs runs "on top of" ESA, which runs "on top of" mcclim ? 20:03:45 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:03:57 not in the sense that you're not exposed to the layer underneath, no 20:04:33 on top of, bad choice of words. :) 20:04:54 -!- madsj [n=mads@130.227.120.134] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:05:37 Wouldn't climacs -be- an ESA? 20:05:49 hefner: Thanks a bunch, mate. I think I've learnt enough for today to do some sane source exploring now :) 20:05:59 Hey good point. 20:06:27 hence "Application frames should inherit from the class esa:esa-frame-mixin" in the manual 20:09:29 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086100.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:10:01 Oh well. This will have to wait for tomorrow. 'night :) 20:10:01 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:11:28 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:42 jebus. why am I discussing PHP with people. I have better things to do. 20:13:07 I have a protocol version mismatch when connecting with slime. How can I determine the version on both sides? 20:14:46 tic: you could be debating php with bots 20:18:48 <_3b> meingbg: M-; slime-protocol-version and swank::*swank-wire-protocol-version* 20:19:05 _3b: thx 20:19:17 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 20:19:37 M-:, not M-;. 20:20:08 <_3b> right, didn't count fingers well enough :) 20:20:23 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:21:10 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:21 -!- subodh_shivapuja [i=c142c881@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5b6c4de58f68f3a9] has left #lisp 20:26:11 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16BAEF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:28:49 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.79.7] has joined #lisp 20:30:06 -!- varjag [n=eugene@100.80-202-118.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:31:12 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:20 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46504.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:45 Eleanore [n=a@c-5672e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:35:14 I downloaded slime 2008-02-23, but it cannot connect to cl-perec testbed which has swank 2007-08-22. What's fastest, to get hold of an old slime version, or to install cl-perec with all the dependencies? 20:36:03 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@217.201.68.250] has quit ["Valete!"] 20:36:14 manuel_, would be no real difference. 20:36:50 blah2345 [i=a@c-67-185-17-84.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:23 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:42:47 -!- bedlam [i=bedlam@case.rit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:24 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:32 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:25 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47018.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:04 -!- t [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has left #lisp 20:48:06 -!- blah2345 [i=a@c-67-185-17-84.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:53:03 metawilm_ [n=willem@78.52.96.220] has joined #lisp 20:54:45 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-59-86.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:22 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-049-087.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:59 -!- sellout [n=greg@pool-68-160-6-164.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:06:42 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:06:52 -!- schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:17 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:10 -!- besiria` [n=user@ppp083212086203.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:31 -!- ivansto [i=ivans@93-136-96-245.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:09:10 -!- metawilm [n=willem@e179027097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:10:26 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:11:08 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:14:10 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:14:48 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:23 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:15:25 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:15:31 -!- schoppen1auer is now known as schoppenhauer 21:15:57 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:16:34 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:19 _zenon_ [n=x@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:28:16 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a Llama again!"] 21:30:52 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:56 -!- ``Erik__ is now known as ``Erik_ 21:32:18 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl10-228-49.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:34:24 *chandler* drops a pin 21:34:36 *sykopomp* covers ears. 21:34:55 *bwooooong* 21:35:00 unusual sound for a pin drop, that 21:35:04 -!- gloaming [n=steve@75-161-91-94.albq.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:35:06 *Riastradh* moves the gong out of the way. 21:35:08 Try again. 21:35:14 *ping* 21:35:19 *meow* 21:35:26 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:04 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:34 ak70` [n=user@195.158.88.244] has joined #lisp 21:38:07 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:38:52 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:05 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c-5672e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:30 heh. 21:43:33 -!- ak70` [n=user@195.158.88.244] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:43:34 <_zenon_> *woof* 21:48:42 borism [n=boris@195-50-212-207-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 21:51:47 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:27 -!- ak70 [n=user@195.158.88.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:56:07 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:12 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@c66-235-39-146.sea2.cablespeed.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:18 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:08:18 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@c66-235-11-118.sea2.cablespeed.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:11:27 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 22:13:50 -!- jeremiah 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23:35:18 how does one have aplications on 2 different boxes communicate? 23:35:48 what is it a compiled function in lisp? 23:35:57 the_unmaker: depends on what you mean by 'communicate' 23:36:21 topo: function which was compiled into the machine code 23:36:28 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:43 why this is useful? 23:36:54 topo: it will be faster to execute 23:37:29 disumu [n=disumu@p57A24835.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:36 it need not compile to machine code. 23:37:51 but the idea is to convert it to a form that will execute faster than the uncompiled form. 23:38:24 why do i need to compile function for live coding? 23:38:42 you don't 23:39:12 (compile 'aux-function 23:39:19 (lambda () 23:45:02 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:47:00 -!- rottcodd_ [n=user@ppp59-167-59-86.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:12 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-218-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 23:47:49 bertskert1 [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:47:53 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-096-188.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:05 is there algorithms for simulating chemical reactions? 23:48:16 I'm getting the goofiest style-warning in sbcl 23:48:30 which is the diference between compile and compile-file? 23:48:42 clhs compile 23:48:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp.htm 23:48:46 clhs compile-file 23:48:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp_fi.htm 23:48:51 compile works on a single function, compile-file works on a whole file 23:48:52 topo: learn to read spec 23:49:02 clhs compile 23:49:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp.htm 23:49:06 ok 23:49:33 thakns 23:49:35 it only happens the first time I compile a use of my macro 23:49:43 ths_ [n=ths@p54A46901.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:01 ooh, this always happens, I get an idea of the problem when i try to verbalize it 23:51:24 kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:30 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:46 a slot reader is not defined until the whole ensure-class happens I guess 23:52:52 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 23:53:22 clhs lambda 23:53:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm 23:53:48 and I'm trying to refer to a reader before the ensure-class is executed 23:54:05 even though it's in a slot-value call 23:56:52 topo: note that if you have slime, you can lookup symbols in clhs with C-c C-d h 23:57:21 cool im gonna try 23:58:07 how to fix it is another problem 23:58:55 ]i get c-c c-d is undefined 23:59:44 oh i was doing it in other window 23:59:48 it worked