00:02:54 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:03:44 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:51 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 00:04:06 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:13 adicarlo: add-direct-subclass is more of a hook than a function that actually does something useful 00:05:48 to add a superclass for a class, use sb-mop:ensure-class 00:05:52 ah, ok 00:06:30 its a pickle of a situation because pkg a depends on pkg b, and I wanna make a pkg a class a superclass of pkg b, so I have to use the MOP I believe 00:06:58 you lost me. packages don't have anything to do with this 00:07:26 packages affect symbols and nothing else 00:07:27 no worries -- in my example I stripped out all the pkg junk, its not important 00:07:48 what I'm saying is, packages wouldn't force you to use the MOP unless you needed to use it anyway 00:08:39 its not so much packages as pkg dependencies 00:09:41 i wanna monkey patch some fucntionality into a class in a core pkg, but only if you loaded this supplemental pkg 00:09:59 perhaps you should explain the situation, because the MOP is an awfully big hammer to use if you don't need it :-) 00:10:44 yah i know... i've seen the dangers 00:10:55 esp in some deep ruby hacking in an evil way 00:11:24 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:12:17 whatever you're up to, it sounds like a bad idea :) 00:12:21 hee 00:12:41 FYI, you can define a class with superclasses that don't exist yet. 00:12:53 and might never? 00:13:05 well, that one's a problem 00:13:25 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A261EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 00:15:09 well, let me just try to figure out how this would work... (sb-mop:ensure-class 'foo :direct-superclasses (list 'bar)) ==> Control stack guard page temporarily disabled: proceed with caution 00:16:26 adicarlo: *that* shouldn't happen, and probably deserves a mail to sbcl-devel 00:16:35 but the actual problem is that you need to pass (find-class 'bar), not 'bar 00:17:00 oh? I switched to a clean pkg and it seems to work ok 00:17:12 let me try over again 00:17:15 oh really? 00:17:40 hey, learn something new every day 00:17:52 I wonder if you tried to make foo circular :-) 00:18:05 SBCL still blows up when you do that :) 00:18:28 whee! 00:18:38 chandler: i must have 00:18:39 *chandler* never remembers when the MOP magically accepts class names instead of class metaobjects, and when it does not 00:19:10 hee 00:19:18 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:19:51 adicarlo annotated #69425 with "FIXED!!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69425#1 00:20:41 thanks for the tip, chandler 00:20:47 now, explain why you're using the bazooka here :-) 00:21:23 adicarlo: you are going about this so bloody wrong I want to vomit 00:21:24 well, going in to *all* the details would be hard, let me see 00:21:32 oh my 00:22:15 this is for a unit-test suite which is part of a utility package 00:22:26 odcl is its name 00:22:27 vixey: stop being rude 00:23:05 i have this suppplemental package call it foo-addons, which defines several method that let you do say: 00:23:35 (test-http-request (make-instance 'http-transaction-valid) "/some/url") 00:23:59 i'm trying to allow sensible unit class defaulting for each of the tests in the class 00:24:15 so, given that 'self' is bound to the unit-test class, you can say: 00:24:24 (test-http-request self "/some/url") 00:24:51 anyhow so I wanted to take the basline unit-test class and put it in line of the generic dispatch 00:25:11 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-145-181.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:23 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:25:48 no need to do any of htis foolishness if we just pushed foo-addons into the odcl class, but it just brings in more dependancies that I wanna put on a utility pkg 00:26:01 chandler: is that an adequate descr? 00:27:05 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [] 00:27:21 tayssir` [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 00:27:38 something [n=somethin@c-68-46-48-132.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:43 I think so. It sounds like this is a case where you want the base class to be a generic hook that the addons package to extend. 00:28:07 yah 00:28:44 Well, using ENSURE-CLASS to add another superclass isn't the worst way of going about that, if you think there will be other things hooking onto that. 00:29:09 If you just want to reserve a space for the addons to extend, put a simple empty mixin in the superclass list in the base package, and let the addons package redefine that mixin 00:29:30 oooh 00:30:04 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:30:04 I'm using sbcl, is there a way for a lisp program to accept command arguments? I googled around and seems like *args* is what I want, but when I tried to use it, it says *args* is unbound. 00:30:31 something: sbcl --eval "(foo)" 00:30:42 something: i don't think sbcl exposes ARGV per se 00:30:53 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:31:07 adicarlo: Sure it does. 00:31:08 something: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Command_002dline-arguments.html 00:31:24 ah... i was just wondering if I was wrong or right there thanks 00:31:32 chandler: thanks! 00:33:00 -!- tayssir [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:33:17 sbcl is pretty cool 00:34:27 altho I find the runtime vs toplevel options rather odd 00:35:01 just to avoid confusion what you are passing the args to. 00:35:15 at least that's what the docs said. 00:36:01 -!- prip [n=_prip@host12-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:36:16 I'm not sure what the reason is for confusing the user with the distinction between the two is. 00:36:29 prip [n=_prip@host197-197-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:36:44 its very odd, IMHO 00:37:07 making matters perhaps worse, if you badly mix runtime and toplevel options, you don't get a warning, just the options inthe wrong place are ignored 00:41:30 -!- something [n=somethin@c-68-46-48-132.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:43:00 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 00:44:38 well, the supposed reason is that you can replace the toplevel, and then do your own toplevel arg parsing. 00:44:46 I agree though that it's not a very good idea. :) 00:47:24 -!- rottcodd_ [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:14 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 00:48:56 something [n=somethin@c-68-46-48-132.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:05 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [Client Quit] 00:50:43 hmm. billc's blog doesn't allow comments? 00:54:15 -!- sctb [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:54:59 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:01:36 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 01:01:54 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@v113243.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit ["cyas"] 01:02:06 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:03:12 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.248] has joined #lisp 01:06:04 is there no way to search planet lisp? 01:06:59 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:08 google? 01:07:20 syamajala: google site:http://planet.lisp.org/ 01:07:39 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-30-162.kosnet.ru] has quit ["."] 01:07:47 ok 01:09:53 Is anyone else unable to load http://www.common-lisp.net/ ? 01:09:59 -!- dthomp [n=dat@c-24-21-28-103.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:10:15 Oh, there it goes. Slooow! 01:10:17 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:11:23 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:11:44 i'm trying to figure out how to add multiple lisp implementations to my .emacs 01:12:23 I tried using slime-lisp-implementations, but I found it to be very difficult to use. 01:12:42 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.221.101] has joined #lisp 01:13:01 i remember seeing something on planet lisp that had a good way of doing it but the page isn't working anymore 01:16:44 i change inferior-lisp-program. 01:18:39 i have several functions like (defun sbcl () (interactive) (slime "sbcl")) 01:21:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:26:04 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 01:26:54 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:10 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #lisp 01:29:06 if you install something with asdf can you can share it between lisps or do you need two separate copies? 01:29:19 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.129.186] has joined #lisp 01:31:19 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:15 syamajala: Do you mean asdf-install? If the package is portable among those lisps, then yes, but you can't share fasls. 01:32:37 yeah i meant sharing fasls 01:32:53 because i'm trying to setup sbcl and openmcl side by side 01:33:06 You can't share fasls between multiple versions of SBCL. 01:33:29 but it looks like openmcl is 64bit only on intel systems running os x 01:33:39 and uffi doesn't seem to work 01:33:57 syamajala: I don't know the best method for working with mult. lisps, though. 01:35:11 ok 01:35:33 sbcl and ccl use different fasl extensions, so it should be ok to use the same copy of the library sources with both lisps, I would think. 01:36:09 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:50 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 01:38:03 derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has joined #lisp 01:40:14 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:40:57 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:06 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:44:15 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-3b775b5bf39dd083] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:44:28 _schulte_ [n=Eric@ip98-169-93-242.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:34 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:11 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:45:45 ths_ [n=ths@X5f28.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:47:42 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.248] has quit [] 01:47:43 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 01:48:09 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:24 -!- _schulte_ [n=Eric@ip98-169-93-242.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:48:47 _schulte_ [n=Eric@ip98-169-93-242.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:20 minion: memo for syamajala: Look up asdf-binary-locations if you want to share libraries between multiple lisps, or even multiple versions of the same lisp. 01:53:21 Remembered. I'll tell syamajala when he/she/it next speaks. 01:55:33 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.129.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:56:04 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:57:50 -!- ths [n=ths@X769c.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:04:20 -!- something [n=somethin@c-68-46-48-132.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:05:19 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.7] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:05:27 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [] 02:07:50 something [n=somethin@c-68-46-48-132.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:02 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:14 -!- ug [n=merlin@64.47.164.86] has quit ["Terminal ran away with the spoon"] 02:12:56 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 02:14:37 <_schulte_> can anyone recommend a good weblocks tutorial 02:16:29 <_schulte_> also, would be happy for any recommendations as to a good lisp web framework for someone (like me) with some lisp experience, but no lisp web-dev experience 02:17:02 _schulte_: What are you looking for in a web framework? 02:19:22 <_schulte_> something that allows for modular development 02:19:26 <_schulte_> don't need a database backend 02:19:36 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.15] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:19:43 <_schulte_> preferably fairly simple (at least for smaller projects) 02:21:40 <_schulte_> I've really enjoyed using lisp for writing emacs extensions, and I'd like to be able to start using lisp for some of the small web-scripts that I need to write from time to time 02:21:55 _schulte_: hunchentoot alone might be perfectly adequate, then. 02:23:36 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 02:26:43 <_schulte_> rme: any pointer for getting started? 02:27:51 something_ [n=somethin@c-68-46-48-132.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:07 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:28:12 _schulte_: The example that comes with hunchentoot is good at showing how the various features work 02:28:28 <_schulte_> rme: thanks 02:28:59 thank qbg 02:30:57 Also, take a look at this section in the documentation: http://www.weitz.de/hunchentoot/#example 02:31:08 <_schulte_> too many short names 02:31:10 <_schulte_> qbg: thanks 02:31:28 <_schulte_> reading that right now 02:32:03 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 02:35:58 -!- _schulte_ [n=Eric@ip98-169-93-242.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["out"] 02:38:49 -!- xMilesTegx [n=Spune@c-69-137-224-211.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["Snak 5.3.3 IRC For Macintosh - http://www.snak.com"] 02:41:43 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:14 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 02:44:36 -!- something [n=somethin@c-68-46-48-132.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:59 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.192.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:49:44 -!- echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:50:49 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:51:29 -!- ghost77 [n=the7thgh@c8u.is.edu.ro] has quit [] 02:53:11 _sohail_ [n=Sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:03 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:56:06 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 03:00:52 -!- derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:02:09 -!- radetsky [n=dan@adsl-76-212-8-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:04:22 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092414]"] 03:05:29 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:05:56 -!- defn_ is now known as defn 03:09:45 c|mell [n=cmell@61.121.210.70] has joined #lisp 03:11:41 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:16:59 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:11 dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has joined #lisp 03:23:01 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:25:11 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 03:25:31 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.7] has joined #lisp 03:25:58 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-0.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:49 lanstin [n=lanstin@adsl-70-137-155-207.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:11 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@132.80-202-239.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:39 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:37:51 mornin' 03:37:59 morning 03:38:22 Thursdays. Wonderful days for lisping :) 03:39:52 thursdays are the worst days to lisp 03:40:03 he's a scheme infiltrator! 03:40:04 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.203.109] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:40:05 kill him!!! 03:40:33 Scheme is just another example that lisp-like languages evolve towards CL :p 03:40:58 -!- lanstin [n=lanstin@adsl-70-137-155-207.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:41:23 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:41:34 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:42:04 with R6RS, devolve might be a better word 03:42:17 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:22 lanstin [n=lanstin@adsl-70-137-155-207.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:44 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:43:56 -!- lanstin [n=lanstin@adsl-70-137-155-207.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:44:01 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-146-88.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:44:13 creddy_ [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-146-88.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:44:52 -!- something_ [n=somethin@c-68-46-48-132.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:44:57 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:17 -!- creddy_ is now known as creddy 03:46:05 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@153.84-49-150.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:46:48 ushdf: I am? 03:46:59 ushdf: That's weird. I just got started with scheme like last week. 03:47:27 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-138-67-93.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:47:45 ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-138-67-93.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:47:56 -!- dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:56:01 you don't get to do after you troll 03:56:05 we'll judge that from your subsequent actions 03:56:47 ushdf: lest ye be judged 03:57:20 ushdf: thanks for the insight. 03:59:01 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:59:45 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:46 anytime 04:00:59 ushdf: So what is the best day for lisping? 04:02:40 I'd say thaturday 04:03:29 ? 04:03:51 I personally like Monday on to and throughout Sunday. 04:03:57 so about 7 days / week 04:04:29 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:07:59 photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 04:08:50 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.247.184] has joined #lisp 04:11:55 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:12:06 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:45 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 04:20:00 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.247.184] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 04:22:29 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:23:40 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:13 -!- patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:03 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:35:58 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:39:56 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:41:23 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@132.80-202-239.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:41:44 Soulman [n=kvirc@132.80-202-239.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 04:54:03 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:50 benny` [n=benny@i577A0084.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:58:50 yeah. my lzw implementation finally works on long files. 04:59:42 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.7] has left #lisp 05:00:04 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:00:32 slyrus_: can you test it on an sbcl core some time? 05:01:50 lukego pasted "a glimpse of the state of the art in video driver development" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69434 05:01:54 shoot me now 05:02:19 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-15-177.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:04:35 (cons (length *sbcl-core*) (length *sbcl-core-lzw*)) 05:04:42 (26325020 . 13032497) 05:05:39 slyrus_: how much time? It could save some time when shooting partial heaps across the network (: 05:07:16 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [] 05:07:20 pkhuong: I have done no performance optimization whatsoever, so don't laugh at the shitty performance 05:07:49 I'll wait for 0.0.1 then! 05:08:01 Good morning. 05:08:10 62.913 seconds of real time 05:08:22 2,964,914,776 bytes consed 05:08:26 morning beach 05:08:59 but, hey, at least the decoded and original cores match :) 05:09:14 slyrus_: and that's how we can know you're not a C programmer 05:09:35 because they match or because it's slow? 05:10:02 both 05:10:05 heh 05:10:35 yeah, the real world tiff files out there probably don't conform to the spec :) 05:11:07 your tiffs are lies 05:11:13 the bitmap was the true way 05:11:20 the compressionistic heathens will repent in their ways 05:12:41 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0ADD.versanet.de] has quit [No route to host] 05:12:53 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 05:13:09 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:13:39 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:51 -!- ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has left #lisp 05:14:44 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:17:21 O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-77-116.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:18:14 I'm guessing this equalp hash-table is rather slow 05:18:46 enn_ [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has joined #lisp 05:20:02 -!- enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:20:13 billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:25 -!- billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 05:20:48 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-0c-f6-20-8c-57.k102.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:10 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.13.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:23:29 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:24:20 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 05:24:54 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:26:35 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-15-177.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:22 -!- pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:30:14 topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has joined #lisp 05:33:39 yawn. morning. 05:34:18 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:34:46 hello tic 05:35:36 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:36:28 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 05:39:04 tayssir`` [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 05:39:05 -!- tayssir` [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:41:49 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:42:20 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:44:20 ivansto [i=ivans@93-138-0-14.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 05:45:13 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-138-67-93.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:47:47 hi, beach. 05:49:24 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:49:47 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:52:25 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:56:18 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-95.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:02 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47023.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:59 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 06:02:40 So, anyone doing presentations at ILC09? 06:04:29 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.221.101] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:07:29 -!- topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:13:15 I don't I got an answer to my question yesterday, so I'll ask it again: nikodemus made an argument in favor of setf expanders rather than (setf ...) function, but (setf ...) functions can be #'applied. Is there anything in the CLHS that prevents having both for a particular accessor function? 06:13:17 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:13:27 *I don't think I got 06:13:56 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47FE4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:14:38 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:48 so does d-s-e wrap its original function? (it would seem so because macros are allowed) 06:19:26 what do you mean by "wrap its original function"? 06:19:59 the access-fn you pass to d-s-e. But I really do not know enough about it to say anything. Just guessing wildly. 06:20:20 tic: I think that's just a symbol. 06:20:32 Alright. 06:20:35 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:20:40 morning tcr. 06:23:58 correct me if I am wrong: For ordinary (not generic) functions, the ability to use #'funcall or #'apply on (setf ...) is not terribly useful, but for generic functions, it's a great advantage to be able to write :before, :after, and :around methods. 06:28:40 beach: i don't see anything obvious either. The setf function just won't be used if a setf expander has been defined. 06:29:02 pkhuong: That was my impression. Thanks! 06:32:13 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:34:23 icylisper [n=icylispe@61.12.19.50] has joined #lisp 06:35:44 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 06:35:55 beach: Why do you want to use both? Perhaps a compiler macro on the setf function would be a better choice. 06:42:51 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.112.88] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:44:17 pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:42 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:49:13 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:50:06 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:52:26 -!- _sohail_ [n=Sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:54:00 -!- O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-77-116.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 06:54:55 _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:03 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-17-237.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:56:49 pinterface2 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:47 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 07:00:59 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:01:38 -!- pinterface2 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:01:51 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:54 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-77-116.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:06:47 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 07:07:38 tcr: nikodemus explained why: http://random-state.net/log/3395558471.html 07:10:35 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-17-237.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:11:15 -!- pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:12:02 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:13:36 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-0.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:13:46 rudi_ [n=rudi@z118l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:17 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:16:31 -!- rudi_ is now known as rudi 07:17:58 MHOOO [n=nah@3-007.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:18:00 -!- _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:20:50 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:21:04 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:42 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-7-123.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:29:06 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-77-116.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 07:29:56 jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:52 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A0084.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:35:11 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:13 zickzackv [n=zickzack@e178160039.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:35:23 -!- zickzackv [n=zickzack@e178160039.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 07:45:29 Good morning. 07:45:35 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #lisp 07:47:14 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@3-007.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:48:45 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:11 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-77-116.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:52:22 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 07:52:30 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 07:53:28 Actually, FSET needs some love. IMHO, it has the potential to bring a true and consistent concurrency scheme to Common Lisp. 07:53:41 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:58:42 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 07:59:37 -!- tayssir`` [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02:28 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 08:02:32 anyone know of a reader macro for inlining text? .. i'm looking for something that does not require one to backslash " and \ characters etc. 08:04:17 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-7-123.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:04:56 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:09:06 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:10:41 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:11:54 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 08:12:31 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:13:07 plage [n=user@laptop-147-210-128-154.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:13:37 hello lispers 08:13:37 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 08:14:20 hello kiuma 08:14:27 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-95.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:18:27 good morning 08:18:32 hello mvilleneuve 08:19:21 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 08:21:25 -!- icylisper [n=icylispe@61.12.19.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:23:45 morning mvilleneuve 08:27:42 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-77-116.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 08:30:30 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:29 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.221.101] has joined #lisp 08:31:46 I have a problem with writing the manual of the new CLAW. Since it is grown it is composed of subprojects: the 'claw' that is an application server, claw-html that is an html framework, claw-html.dojo that is the claw-html dojotoolkit integration, claw.i18n that is a localization library. So my question is How could I shortly define CLAW ? 08:31:51 any ideas ? 08:31:54 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 08:31:58 morning 08:31:59 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 08:32:42 morning ? 08:32:59 Si 08:33:17 splittist, cold fingers ! :D 08:33:31 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:34:09 splittist, could youo help me plz? I've the writer block ! 08:34:28 well, give it back then! 08:34:31 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:35:38 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-153.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 08:36:01 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #lisp 08:36:31 Krystof, it seems odd, but I don't know how to briefly descripe CLAW, for the intro of the manual 08:36:37 :( 08:37:07 "CLAW is a whatsit that makes thingifying easier" 08:37:17 there, all you need to do is replace two words 08:39:18 kiuma: as per Krystof, google for one of those 'elevator pitch' templates that were doing the rounds before the last market correction and fill in the gaps. 08:41:27 Krystof, thanks it could be a good start, mean while I'm waiting the new ISP that I've changed for the demo, becaute I've already put it online, but the connection is so terrible, that CLAW seems slow when in truth it's very fast, hoopefully I'll soon have a 2mbit upload/download connection 08:42:32 splittist, I haven't understood :( 08:43:26 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:43:44 aquateen_ [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:58 isn't the description you mentioned just now "good enough", kiuma ? .. claw, application server .. claw-html, html-framework (templating?) .. claw-html.dojo, dojo-integration ...etc. 08:44:05 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:41 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["go Canada!"] 08:44:42 lnostdal, yes but I don't know how to define all these things 08:44:58 lnostdal, in the whole I mean 08:45:43 maybe it is a has-a relationship instead of a is-a relationship .. the components 08:45:52 .."no common base class".. 08:46:07 what Krystof said (more or less "CLAW is a blob") might be a solutino 08:46:56 s/blob/set of instruments/ 08:47:05 web-application framework isn't a bad term i think? 08:47:33 ex. ruby on rails: "Ruby on Rails is an open-source web framework.." ( http://www.rubyonrails.org/ ) 08:47:35 lnostdal, it's also an application server so framework is reductive 08:47:51 and it's more then RoR 08:48:12 ok 08:49:11 there is an application server, lisplets (the web applications), the html framework, etch 08:49:23 etc 08:49:37 don't try to cram everything into one sentence then. If you 08:49:45 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:50:01 if you're afraid things get lost, make a bullet list in the second paragraph; your readers might not be asleep at that point yet ;) 08:51:07 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@30.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:51:35 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@30.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 08:52:58 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:53:58 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9A6D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:08:39 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 09:11:34 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 09:12:09 -!- blx [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:12:17 woodz [n=chatzill@213.128.226.209] has joined #lisp 09:12:23 -!- plage [n=user@laptop-147-210-128-154.labri.fr] has left #lisp 09:14:28 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2FC21.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:03 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:18:28 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:18:46 trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:11 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:56 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:19:57 hello ;) 09:23:34 Lisp trivia question: what does "FASL" stand for? 09:23:54 fast load? 09:24:11 I don't know either: I'm wondering. 09:24:27 But "fast load" is certainly plausible. 09:24:58 minion: what does fasl stand for? 09:24:58 Facepiece Alcine Summer Langbeinite 09:25:39 heh :) 09:25:47 Yeah, right ;) 09:25:55 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-131-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:56 But that minion is pretty cool. 09:26:00 "FASt Loading", according to http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/8.0/doc/glossary.htm 09:30:56 ths [n=ths@p549AEF4B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:20 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X5f28.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:36:13 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:36:22 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:40:06 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-131-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:40:41 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-17-237.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 09:46:52 -!- jao [n=user@186.Red-81-32-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:48:38 matley [n=matley@83.225.246.162] has joined #lisp 09:51:25 jtmoulia [n=user@bcm-131-111-216-239.girton.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:52:20 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:56:31 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.221.101] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:58:00 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.221.101] has joined #lisp 09:58:00 -!- nenorbot [n=Menas@87.69.67.210] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:59:20 -!- rudi [n=rudi@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/rudi] has quit ["Client exciting"] 10:01:36 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 10:04:26 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.246.162] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:08:44 -!- jtmoulia [n=user@bcm-131-111-216-239.girton.cam.ac.uk] has left #lisp 10:09:35 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:09:56 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 10:10:05 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:20 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.221.101] has quit [] 10:14:31 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 10:15:13 nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:15:33 -!- echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:16:43 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:16:53 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has joined #lisp 10:23:43 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@61.121.210.70] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 10:25:48 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:52 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:34:05 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:35:17 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:35:28 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:37:42 benny [n=benny@i577A0084.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:37:55 vasa [n=vasa@mm-15-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 10:40:54 semka_ [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 10:41:37 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:43:47 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:03 woot! 11% off the SBCL build! 10:45:04 nikodemus_, memo from chandler: FreeBSD 7.1 will have an affinity API, which needless to say is different from every other system: http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=cpuset&sektion=2&apropos=0&manpath=FreeBSD+8-current 10:45:28 nikodemus_: which trick this time? 10:45:30 <_8david> nikodemus_: how much larger is the memory usage? 10:45:40 icylisper [n=icylispe@61.12.19.50] has joined #lisp 10:45:59 <_8david> (I'm assuming this is the 'code components on separate pages' thing.) 10:47:10 pjb [n=t@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:30 -!- icylisper [n=icylispe@61.12.19.50] has quit [Client Quit] 10:48:23 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:48:56 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9A6D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 10:49:05 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9A6D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:51:30 i wish it was 10:52:07 <_8david> oh, ok 10:53:03 -!- semka_ is now known as me-so-stupid 10:53:38 this is making pretty printing marginally less stupid (but ignore the 11% for a second -- that was an apples and oranges number) 10:53:49 still working on my first coffee of the day... 10:53:57 laki [n=d5ca7c8a@67.159.35.76] has joined #lisp 10:54:02 heh 10:56:04 -!- laki [n=d5ca7c8a@67.159.35.76] has quit [Client Quit] 10:58:11 is there any common lisp library that make possible to work with dwg files ? 10:58:29 dwg->autocad 10:59:23 kiuma: eek! will claw evolve into a cad system now? :) 10:59:44 -!- _adeht is now known as adeht 11:01:00 H4ns, lol, A friend from Siemens asked for something like www.aperture.com 11:02:07 H4ns, even if with the claw dojo integration I could create something that draws vectorial images :) 11:03:12 anyway it wouldn't be impossible 11:04:21 ok, the real difference is closer to 2%, but it does make the case on sbcl-devel work in a sane amount of time even if *print-pretty* is true 11:05:30 nikodemus_: fyi, i've met that slowness in real life much more often than your 2% build time suggests... 11:06:30 -!- woodz [n=chatzill@213.128.226.209] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 11:08:14 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:08:20 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-153.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:08:28 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.134.228] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:08:42 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.134.228] has joined #lisp 11:09:22 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-153.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 11:11:34 yeah. iirc sbcl build is pretty good about binding *print-pretty* to nil 11:13:14 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.94.15] has joined #lisp 11:17:20 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 11:18:55 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:28:09 nikodemus_: i have some long pending patches on sbcl-devel and noone complained not comitted them. any hints on what i should do? 11:29:40 well, you can send me follow-up emails on them (replying on the original, for preference) and i'll make sure i have them tagged 11:30:18 ok, will do 11:31:58 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.94.15] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:35:31 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 11:35:47 sad0ur_ [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 11:36:27 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:36:47 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:38:24 x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-153.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 11:42:39 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 11:46:30 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:46:51 Xach: is zs3 documentation wholly hand-written, or do you use a genenerator to extract and format docstrings? 11:48:54 envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:49:10 Isn't it yet another Ediware? 11:49:47 office -> 11:49:49 -!- nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:49:56 nikodemus_: Checked this? http://weitz.de/documentation-template/ 11:49:57 topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has joined #lisp 11:51:13 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:52:34 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-153.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:52:41 -!- sad0ur_ [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:53:36 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-191-149.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:54:25 -!- enn_ [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:54:42 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:54:46 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:56:36 isn't there any dxf2svg in CL around ? 11:57:13 -!- envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:57:36 bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:58:24 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:58:26 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:00:14 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:00:42 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:00:56 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 12:01:27 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:03:34 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:08:16 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:10:34 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-153.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [] 12:10:54 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-153.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 12:13:43 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB8E32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:13:58 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9A6D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:14:01 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 12:17:13 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-191-149.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:23:28 -!- aquateen_ [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:28:31 MHOOO [n=nah@3-058.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:28:51 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 12:33:22 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:34:17 nikodemus: can you ever really completely hand-write something in emacs? 12:34:21 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-171-245.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:34:39 nikodemus: but i know what you mean, and no, docstrings and the html docs are separate 12:35:44 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 12:35:53 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 12:37:16 kiuma: if not, i will write one for you for a modest fee! 12:38:06 Xach, It might be an option :) , I've to get a reply from a contact 12:38:51 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:36 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:04 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@3-058.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:44:08 Xach: no fancy "gimme-a-htmlized-doc-for-foo-here", then? 12:46:19 nikodemus: no. 12:46:54 <_8david> Xach: didn't you have an emacs command to update those docstrings? 12:47:02 for a strict superset of C, obj-c allows some pretty impressive stuff: http://collison.ie/blog/2008/10/iphone-hackery-api-explorer 12:47:08 oops, wrong channel 12:47:12 _8david: i didn't. 12:47:13 <_8david> also, would you use a suitable automated docstring-based solution if it existed? 12:47:19 Doubtful. 12:47:25 I don't think of them as being for the same audience. 12:48:14 *Xach* is always up for trying new things though, as long as they are proven to be totally awesome in advance 12:48:32 has anyone here ever used EuLisp (or specifically Telos?) 12:48:43 heh. 12:48:54 Xach: heroin. 12:49:25 those creepy dolls climbing on the ceiling were so *not* awesome 12:50:37 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [] 12:50:59 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 12:51:13 Xach: i don't suggest you stop using. 12:51:32 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 12:51:38 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 12:51:46 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 12:51:49 tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:51:54 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 12:51:55 anyway...moving on... 12:52:11 <_8david> the modularized bastard child of documentation-template, atdoc, AND cmucl-style texinfo-docstrings would have to absolutely awesome. 12:52:29 _8david: i would take a look at things, i think, but i've worn a semi-comfortable groove with my workflow at the moment. 12:53:24 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 12:53:24 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 12:53:41 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:55:10 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 12:55:30 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-32.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:55:39 nikodemus: are you looking for something to use? _8david might have something! 12:56:00 i was going to try atdoc but then found out i needed to install a ton of dependency infrastructure in order to use it 12:56:18 you poor thing. 12:57:28 -!- brandelune [n=JC@pl157.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:58:29 locklace: there are various tools that will do that for you 12:59:31 indeed. in fact, i have trouble keeping track of them all :) 13:02:04 ahaas_ [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:06 -!- ahaas_ [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:08:18 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:09:55 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:10:56 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Gone"] 13:12:21 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:14:43 bunch of things i'd like to document using a format like zs3 and ediware uses 13:15:15 i'll probably hack the sbcl docstring extractor to write html, and turn it into a contrib 13:15:20 in a week or two 13:16:33 you could use makeinfo to generate HTML (or DocBook XML, and then convert that into HTML). 13:16:39 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:16:55 maybe 13:17:17 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:37 IIRC, makeinfo's generated HTML lacks a doctype, but is otherwise valid. 13:17:42 though i think i really want the xacediware look & feel, which is going to be hard to get like that 13:17:48 ok 13:18:13 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:19:24 pdeb [n=user@li37-218.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:25 i write it through a bunch of little elisp helpers. 13:19:33 sort of a manual markdown process. 13:19:38 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:25 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:20:41 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:54 hm, or maybe i should use esrap for the parsing 13:21:12 blech, i'll think about this later 13:21:19 what foo do I need to cast to disable TCO in SBCL's compiler? 13:21:25 is (debug 3) enough? 13:21:32 mathrick: that will do it. 13:21:40 <_8david> nikodemus: what I'd really like is a modular-ish approach 13:21:49 kreuter: thanks 13:22:03 mathrick: IIRC, so will (> debug (max speed space)), but I might be misremembering. 13:22:10 <_8david> For example, I like this special atdoc-style syntax for my own projects, but I realize that nobody will ever use atdoc because nobody else likes to put this javadoc-like syntax into their docstrings. 13:22:39 _8david: right 13:22:41 kreuter: ya, (debug 3) is useful anyway, so I don't mind that :) 13:22:48 <_8david> So I'd like a library (let's call it DOCSTRING-PARSER) that collects definitions and their docstrings into an in-memory format. 13:23:08 *mathrick* notices he wandered into an interesting discussion 13:23:19 _8david: i think i *would* try to take advantage of parts of a system like that. 13:24:34 I always disliked magic docstrings, precisely because they are hacks and thus completely fail to combine 13:24:36 <_8david> It could include two syntax parsers out-of-the-box: SBCL-style as a default and atdoc-style as an option. (I wouldn't really make those little syntax parsers into their own asdf systems, I think, because this kind of code is usually pretty short. But I could be wrong about that.). 13:25:46 <_8david> As an in-memory format, I was thinking about a sexp representation the way many like their HTML stuff. Something like (:p "first paragraph" (:a with-a-link)) 13:25:51 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:25:58 x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-153.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:13 <_8david> In any case, the generation of output should be pluggable. A simple texinfo output solution could be taken from the texinfo-docstrings project. My XSLT-based thing would be essentially atdoc, but probably under a new name. 13:28:42 hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 13:28:52 dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has joined #lisp 13:29:32 -!- hugopt is now known as hugo 13:30:02 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:25 appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:32:07 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@132.80-202-239.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:30 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-153.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:42 <_8david> It shouldn't be too hard give atdoc an Ediware-like look anyway, but I'm guessing that the "ton of dependencies" might still bother some. 13:33:41 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:33:46 some tons of dependencies are not like other tons of dependencies 13:34:00 well, it's not really a showstopper if it's a great package, i was just sort of caught off guard by how much infra was needed to do something that i considered fairly simple... 13:34:42 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E474.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:47 (I wouldn't consider a ton of dependencies problematic the whole ton is covered by clbuild, for instance) 13:35:01 s/the/if the/ 13:35:12 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-28-17.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:35:17 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.233.171] has joined #lisp 13:35:23 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1EE78.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:33 <_8david> the whole ton of atdoc dependencies is nearly entirely due to Xuriella XSLT, I think, which is in clbuild, yes. 13:35:44 -!- dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:35:53 hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 13:36:07 also i really like the way the ZS3 page is organised, it clearly tells you the situation with dependencies and advises you how to get things working as simply as possible 13:36:28 locklace: I really struggled with that. It's a little fragile. 13:36:49 there's no telling whether, in the future, one of the major dependencies shuffles, adds, or eliminates minor dependencies. 13:36:57 -!- hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:37:15 Chronona1t [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has joined #lisp 13:37:25 (of course it is also easier to swallow a dependency set like that for a larger application. code->doc generators are more in the "tools" category and people usually expect it to be quite simple to get one and try it out) 13:37:42 hmm, i think i forgot a dependency, too. 13:38:15 i did, i did forget usocket. 13:38:32 Xach: yeah, the problem is fundamentally the whole package management system issue, but i think you've explained things in the most straightforward possible way given what there is to work with today 13:38:45 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:47 glad to hear it, that's what i was shooting for. 13:39:04 does ECL just produce C code and presumably some sort of GC, or is a compiler needed to run the results as well? 13:39:43 i had to manually follow the atdoc dependency chain for a few levels before deciding it wasn't worth the time :) 13:39:55 i think i'd prefer instances for the in-memory format, since it makes writing output generators nicer, imo 13:39:57 locklace: that's when i usually check to see if asdf-install will work ok. 13:40:02 you can get a "statically-linked" exe using ecl, yes 13:40:28 (defmethod write-document ((part enumerated-list) stream) ...) 13:40:43 envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:40:56 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:18 yah, i think asdf-install should be the focus and the preferred supported setup mechanism until there is a complete replacement 13:41:56 prefer the hell out of it. 13:42:42 cracki [n=cracki@137.226.231.203] has joined #lisp 13:43:09 <_8david> nikodemus: that would be fine with me, too. CLOSy is good. 13:43:16 i don't think things like clbuild should be considered alternatives or advised to users as the right way to get a package 13:43:43 locklace: why not? 13:43:49 can any of the bots be configured to hold these discussions for us? 13:43:51 *Xach* doesn't care much what people suggest, as long as they are willing to support their suggestion 13:44:50 kreuter: ok, i'll be quiet now :) 13:45:04 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:45:08 locklace: I'm pretty sure we have this discussion at least every day. 13:45:13 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 13:45:13 <_8david> nikodemus: you're aware of Luis' texinfo-docstrings git repository, right? IIUC, it currently writes texinfo out directly. If someone had the time to refactor it into (a) parsing into CLOS instances and (b) a separate texinfo generation step, that would already be very helpful, I think. 13:45:23 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 13:46:03 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 13:47:21 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 13:47:27 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:34 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:45 Xach: so you produced the docs on the ZS3 page manually? 13:49:04 locklace: i wrote a lot of structured prose and marked it up with a lot of emacs shortcuts. 13:49:35 *sellout* apparently hasn't been watching the channel enough. 13:50:48 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@132.80-202-239.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:51:34 Xach: You missed me stuttering in front of the lisp meeting. Fare and dcrawford conspired to make me talk about OOPSLA. 13:51:45 nice 13:53:12 Xach: Probably not for anyone. I'm not sure I managed to convey information. I blacked out ... next thing I remember, I'm eating a meatball sandwich. 13:53:14 Soulman [n=kvirc@132.80-202-239.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:02 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 13:59:14 minion: chant to kreuter 13:59:15 kreuter: MORE ASDF 13:59:32 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:59:35 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 13:59:47 huh? 14:00:15 that was supposed to come out MORE ASDF-INSTALL-DICUSSIONS 14:00:23 oh 14:00:25 okay then 14:00:35 minion: what does ASDF stand for? 14:00:35 Acetamidine Shoddily Depravation Flub 14:00:36 sellout: you were fine. 14:00:42 another system definition facility 14:01:22 tic: i thought it needed updating, i like minion's version 14:01:40 Didn't see you asked minion. Sorry. 14:02:32 -!- Chronona1t [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:03:28 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@132.80-202-239.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:03:48 Soulman [n=kvirc@132.80-202-239.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:23 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:07:39 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 14:07:59 Xach: would you like an argument according to which no initarg can be a valid initialization argument to MAKE-CONDITION? 14:08:07 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:15 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@132.80-202-239.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:36 -!- cracki [n=cracki@137.226.231.203] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 14:08:53 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:09:26 hah 14:09:36 kreuter: sure. 14:09:49 sbcl can lead the charge for conformance 14:10:08 unconditional success! 14:10:28 if this were a radio channel, namespace and package installation discussions would be static 14:10:37 interactive static! 14:11:21 so, 7.1.2 says that there are two means for declaring initialization arguments valid: being an :initarg in a DEFCLASS, or being an argument in a method of an enumerated set of CLOS functions. 14:11:49 DEFINE-CONDITION ain't DEFCLASS, and MAKE-CONDITION need not invoke those CLOS functions. 14:11:54 ergo, no-go. 14:12:05 -!- jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:12:29 (I'm about to post something about this to comp.lang.lisp, to see if anybody cares.) 14:12:40 *Xach* cares 14:13:03 I think this is just some sloppiness on X3J13's part. 14:13:13 in particular, you can blame Dave Moon. 14:13:28 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:13:38 _That's_ why he's been hiding all this time! 14:13:42 :) 14:17:02 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:02 14:17:02 -!- names: ccl-logbot creddy willb Soulman pixel5 vy bombshelter13 segv_ jtoy krumholt appletizer tritchey_ hugo x6j8x_ lnxz pinterface pdeb deximer Nshag tayssir dlowe sellout jewel H4ns nikodemus pchrist Jasko b4|hraban bertskert envi^home topo cemerick matley xinming pjb vasa benny hkBst reaver__ silenius _deepfire jao ejs ignas Bzek djinni` ths dash_ trebor_win tst___ NoorDextor abeaumont eevar2 splittist mishok13 jdz kiuma attila_lendvai l_a_m 14:17:02 -!- names: replor_ thom_logn ecraven VityokOrgUa boyscared seelenquell_ mikezor_ ivansto tiesje Modius ace4016 slyrus_ photon2 eno ahaas bpt prip wchogg srcerer adicarlo manic12 S11001001 dnm dmiles_afk kleppari gjvc PissedNumlock cmm cmalune eevar Wombat1 cmeme stassats` beach mdxi xjrn REPLeffect jlouis jeremiah scode Bucciarati mornfall specbot thijso kmkaplan jrockway sbok Cel Tristam esden Maghnus Patzy mgr sabetts djkthx eirik puddingpimp JuanDaugherty 14:17:02 -!- names: Liempt holycow nurv101 Tordek ia pitui konr daniel yango larstobi pchrist|univ araujo ivarref e271 kidd2 jmcphers lucca Cryovat tarbo envi^office kpreid gigamonk` alexsuraci isomer proq abend a-s joga defn hugod jollygood_______ herbieB pok guenther__ l4ndfo p8m Guest53748 nowhere_man froog spiderbyte aking V-ille wgl mathrick merlincorey tessier Xof spiaggia knobo cky t schme huangjs ``Erik thedonvaughn mogunus bedlam matthew` felipe Partyzant 14:17:02 -!- names: ineiros gloaming rlpowell kreuter olejorgenb hsaliak brickhazel mcxx slash_ lnostdal nullwork_ nullwork myrkraverk intrados rdd Khisanth Zhivago jsimonss sykopomp locklace fihi09 vcgomes _8david hefner borism nyef ianmcorvidae r0bby arbscht turbo24prg bascule m4thrick Ifur phadthai drewc azuk slyrus johs bougyman sjbach tltstc chii Fractal Fade dostoyevsky jamesjb rumbleca dublpaws Xach andrerav maskd esden_ _3b mtd fnordus albino zbigniew 14:17:02 -!- names: lisppaste maxote Eno_ mqt bohanlon esden`away bunz mvilleneuve z0d tic faheem clog dcrawford foom bfein Adrinael SUNWjoejaxx andrewy jkantz jsnell michaelw xian pragma_ technik jolby chandler dfox Balooga adeht plutonas rsynnott emma Ash qebab rey_ pkhuong Aisling antifuchs gz Paraselene_ delYsid bdowning spacebat rread bob_f froydnj Soulman__ dto keithr _CitizenKane_ retupmoca xan Draggor Thas Riastradh joshe minion erg agemo xristos authentic 14:17:02 -!- names: wlr yahooooo kuwabara luis nasloc__ DrForr 14:17:35 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 14:21:01 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 14:22:04 kreuter: to be slightly serious, while 7.1.2 talks about how the user can declare inititialization arguments to be valid, it doesn't say that the only valid init.args. are those so declared. 14:23:27 splittist: I think that depends on how you interpret "There are two means for declaring initialization arguments valid." 14:23:48 that depends on what the meaning of "is" is 14:23:58 kreuter: how else does one read it than a statement about 'declaring'? 14:24:00 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:26 s/than/than as/ 14:24:37 oh, sorry, I thought you were saying something about "there are two" not meaning "there are exactly two". 14:27:04 should I use (setq) to assign a new value to a parameter i a function? or defvar/defparameter/setf? 14:27:08 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 14:27:31 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:06 bertskert: setq and setf will work. defvar/defparameter are wrong. i prefer setf. 14:28:11 persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:27 xach, thanks! 14:28:36 bertskert: in general, i prefer to use setf everywhere, even where setq would work. 14:28:56 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:29:00 tic: Is there a good vim tutorial to be found somewhere? 14:29:01 well, not "everywhere", but in places appropriate for setf, and also places where setq will also be allowed. 14:30:05 I suppose one could name all one's functions (setf ), whether they set a place or not... [expects to be corrected] 14:30:19 no, that's right 14:30:22 schme, not so much tutors as cheat sets, I guess. It's not very much to learn once you get the basics. Try 'vimtutor' though! 14:30:31 bonus points for having the in the keyword package 14:30:44 tic: Ok. Thanks. 14:30:58 schme, you _are_ embracing the light! 14:31:02 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:31:10 splittist: 7.1.6 says that INITIALIZE-INSTANCE signals an error if any initialization argument has not been declared valid. 7.2.2 says the analogous thing for UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-DIFFERENT-CLASS, and 7.3 says it for REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE. 14:31:20 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:31:21 tic: Not quite. ;) 14:31:48 kreuter: yes? Isn't your point about MAKE-CONDITION? 14:32:35 okay. 14:32:42 Xach: Clisp is wrong, then. 14:32:57 :) 14:33:35 thanks, splittist 14:34:39 kreuter: I'm not sure what I've done, but I'll lap up any praise coming my way (: 14:35:04 I'm joking. 14:35:20 if it's conforming for the condition system to be implemented via CLOS, then it's probably conforming for MAKE-CONDITION to error because MAKE-INSTANCE must error. 14:35:38 but if it's conforming for the condition system to be implemented without CLOS, then it's probably conforming for MAKE-CONDITION not to error, since as splittist points out, the spec doesn't say anything about validity checking outside of CLOS. 14:37:24 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.242.5] has joined #lisp 14:38:11 Xach: how about if SBCL errors 50% of the time? :) 14:39:04 schme, hush! 14:39:59 So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me! 14:40:07 Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. 14:40:17 kreuter: makes sense to me. 14:40:47 tic: I have other plans with checking it out ;) 14:41:04 Super [n=al@2.2.8.b.0.7.4.0.1.0.0.2.ip6.arpa] has joined #lisp 14:41:05 What does "Exceptional Situations: None." mean, again? (I haven't done much [CL]HS language lawyering.) 14:41:12 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:41:33 splittist: that's a point of contention. 14:41:41 mib_c4atm6vk [i=c142c881@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bb94dfd06e43fb2f] has joined #lisp 14:41:52 kreuter: good (: 14:42:24 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 14:43:08 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 14:43:41 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:13 schme, tell me more, tell me more! 14:45:19 schme, (was it love at first sight?) 14:46:12 sellout: It's a good thing I've spent the past few years developing an immunity to nasal demons, then. 14:46:30 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:46:43 hi i am using sbcl and drakma to retrieve websites. i then write them to a file. is there a way to ignore unreadable or unprintable characters or does sbcl support unicode? 14:46:56 supports unicode 14:47:00 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 14:47:01 krumholt: yes and yes. 14:47:24 kreuter, how can i ignore unreadable chars? 14:47:37 As of version 0.8.17 SBCL features Unicode support 14:47:51 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.94.15] has joined #lisp 14:47:54 unreadable chars? 14:48:16 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:48:37 krumholt: just OPEN the files with :EXTERNAL-FORMAT :UTF-8 14:48:43 yes my programm crashes with the error the character with code 8250 cannot be encoded. 14:49:26 when you say "crashes", do you mean "presents you with a debugger including lots of recovery options"? 14:49:32 lol 14:49:48 krumholt: (code-char 8250) sure works in SBCL 14:49:51 Xof: which is a crash to anyone but a lisp programmer. 14:49:57 ? 14:50:01 Xof, yes 14:50:23 nopes.. things like Visual C++ also allows you to break in to code during runtime 14:50:44 Xof, obviously i know it;s not a crash but i can't deliver it to a customer presenting him with a debugger 14:51:04 Will you list #lisp in the support documentation, too? 14:51:06 what H4ns said re :EXTERNAL-FORMAT 14:51:28 Is it still not a crash even if you have no usable restarts? 14:51:59 krumholt: ok, I'll teach you how not to give it to a customer for, say, 10% of your fee 14:52:03 Xach, probably :) 14:52:17 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.242.5] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 14:52:27 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:52:50 krumholt: Do you understand characters, character sets, and internal vs. external representations? 14:53:14 bah, I am being undercut 14:53:19 Xach, yes i think so 14:53:51 Xach: harming the Xof industry since 1452GMT 14:54:13 these people, helping others for no consideration! It will make Kent Pitman weep 14:54:32 krumholt: the sbcl error is telling you that you have chosen an external representation that does not support a conversion from the value in your internal representation 14:54:43 krumholt: you should choose a different external representation 14:54:51 you can do that when you open the output stream 14:54:59 another option is to use one of those helpful restarts 14:55:11 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:55:25 *kreuter* is increasingly confused by Xof. 14:56:29 *Xach* is increasingly confused by a paper about length-limited huffman coding 14:56:46 thanks everyone 14:57:07 *chandler* is increasingly confused by the amount of increasing confusion in the channel 14:57:54 derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:58:12 one thing - krumholt asked how to disable the repl.. 14:59:00 *maybe-avoid-debugger* t 14:59:01 ? 14:59:40 nikodemus: does 1.0.21.38 build for you on Win32? (just asking; I haven't got a working windows host to test on) 15:00:14 there's cl:*debugger-hook* and sb-ext:*invoke-debugger-hook* 15:00:32 ah.. and then handle the hook yourself 15:00:33 <_8david> krumholt: the piece of the puzzle you might be missing is that you can invoke restarts automatically in a handler 15:00:35 <_8david> (handler-bind ((sb-int:stream-decoding-error (lambda (c) (invoke-restart 'sb-int:attempt-resync)))) ...) 15:00:48 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 15:01:02 <_8david> but that's for input, of course. For output, see the suggestions above. 15:02:45 anyone here tried puppylinux? specifically try and run sbcl/cmu inside it? 15:02:58 yes thanks i got that with the restarts. i think my problem is not reading the files with the correct encoding. 15:03:28 krumholt: files in the wild can be pretty annoying to convert to characters. 15:03:33 @krumholt : yup. H4ns's solution should work for you. have a try 15:04:22 @Xach : what would you suggest then? it often does happen that input stream gets corrupted.. what then? open everything in binmode? 15:05:28 kreuter: it was reported to build -- i don't have a win32 to build on either 15:05:35 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-153.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:05:36 ok 15:05:57 mib_c4atm6vk: I don't have any suggestions, just observations. 15:06:11 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:15 i think i will open everything in utf-8 some files will then be incorrectly displayed as a string but at least all files should be readable that way 15:06:37 if you're snarfing random data, using binary io is the way to go 15:06:47 Many people do not understand characters, character sets, internal representations, and encodings. Many files have misleading metadata. 15:06:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:07:05 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 15:07:28 <_8david> krumholt: wrong 15:07:29 krumholt: you told us that you're reading stuff through drakma - if that works (i.e. if the web site does not send you non-decodable data) and you got a string back, you will be able to write it to a file in utf-8 encoding. 15:08:13 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.197.240] has joined #lisp 15:08:23 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:08:39 *Xach* is reminded of http://www.cafepress.com/nucleartacos.26721820 15:08:43 H4ns, i am able to write it in utf-8 in to a file but some chars are wrong for example Ä will not be correct in the resulting file 15:08:44 Xach: and many websites contain cut-n-pasted slop that can't all be decoded according to one external-format. 15:08:49 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44447.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:49 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:09:08 krumholt: no. you are just not displaying it correctly. 15:09:14 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:09:15 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:29 implementing utf-8b, or whatever it is called, would be neat 15:09:34 http://www.cafepress.com/nucleartacos.26721820 was way cool! lol 15:09:38 H4ns, hm the same page in firefox before and after download woll look different 15:09:42 nikodemus: hear, hear! 15:09:59 krumholt: firefox does not know the encoding of your file, and propably defaults to latin-1 15:10:27 firefox also does a good job of guessing how to handle malformed slop. 15:10:30 or alternatively you are *reading* it from the web in the wrong format 15:10:45 H4ns, but its a html file after all? it was a html file before and its a html file after that the format should be in the file or am i mistaken? 15:10:59 yes 15:11:03 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 15:11:03 krumholt: yes, you are 15:11:08 you need to specify the encoding in meta 15:11:23 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [No route to host] 15:11:25 krumholt: in the http request, the encoding is transported in the content-type header. the file does not have such a header, so firefox needs to guess. 15:11:28 billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:57 -!- billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 15:12:13 H4ns, many many thanks. so i should read the header from drakma and then write the file in the encoding send in the header right? 15:12:23 nikodemus: so would implementing something with windows line endings 15:12:38 hearhear 15:12:56 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 15:12:57 maybe we could set up a pledge drive 15:13:07 krumholt: i can't give you any good advice what the best external format for your application is. 15:13:34 I can: use binary IO. 15:13:39 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has joined #lisp 15:13:50 kreuter: how does that help? 15:13:56 *Xach* thinks that's a stretch 15:14:03 can drakma do :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)? is so, using that is the easiest way to be sure you don't end up with transcoding errors 15:14:04 it's silly. :) 15:14:28 s/is so/if so/ 15:14:40 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:51 nikodemus: sure 15:15:24 H4ns: it avoids the assumption that random stuff the web is validly encoded characters, which nothing other than a CL character stream expects stuff to be. 15:15:36 then he at least has the correct content, and can play all sorts of "guess the encoding" games on it 15:15:56 *shrug* 15:16:12 well, latin1 works too... 15:16:14 that is why i said "i can't give good advice". 15:16:17 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has quit [Operation timed out] 15:16:22 the easiest way to do that being to to read it in as latin1 until you hit an encoding header 15:16:40 either an actual header or a meta http-equiv 15:16:53 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:42 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has joined #lisp 15:19:47 that is easy, assuming that your host has latin1 as the standard encoding. 15:20:16 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [] 15:20:22 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 15:22:55 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:22:57 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47023.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:21 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.4] has joined #lisp 15:29:37 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:03 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-243-129.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:31:48 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has joined #lisp 15:32:13 urnick [n=uruser@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:32:21 -!- urnick [n=uruser@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has quit [Client Quit] 15:33:38 sb-impl::indenting-stream appears unused 15:33:50 i wonder if anyone would miss it... 15:33:52 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.233.171] has quit [] 15:34:01 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-243-129.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 15:34:10 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-243-129.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:35:14 How many hours have you personally wasted by mathematical typos in papers? 15:35:14 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:35:30 quite a lot 15:35:31 many 15:35:34 yes 15:35:59 I am too stupid to figure out things on my own and usually just follow what on the paper 15:36:20 I have been staring at this paper and making charts and diagrams and the like, and the problem turns out to be "..." where "1 - ..." is meant 15:36:22 not nearly as many as by undefined symbols used in equations... 15:36:29 in the end errors turn out like the PERL interpreter - when I finally figure out something was wrong.. I am too far from the source of error ;-) 15:36:37 urnick [n=uruser@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:37:00 is the paper public? can we have a okk ? 15:37:18 I don't like to break this to you, but papers are a social construct: they are no more authoritative or correct than the process that creates them 15:37:21 s/okk/look 15:37:25 http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=79147.79150 15:37:37 damn.. an acm linky :'( 15:37:47 mib_c4atm6vk: full pdf available, if not from there, elsewehere. 15:37:51 hey xach.. if you have an acm account.. can you get a few papers for me? 15:37:59 I don't and can't. 15:38:20 "wtf? would it have been too hard to add say what you mean by ? it's not exactly googlable, even if your thesis advisor uses it the same way you do..." 15:38:36 hey Xach , if you have a credit card, could you buy me some stuff? 15:39:07 z0d: now, now. some papers behind the acm firewall have generous redistribution terms, but just aren't available elsewhere. 15:39:23 -!- urnick [n=uruser@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has quit [Client Quit] 15:39:48 *Xach* gets one small step closer to improving salza2 with dynamic huffman trees 15:41:50 Xof: speaking of math, do you have some post on the web somewhere about how to do modular arithmetic in lisp? 15:42:25 McIntire's Common Lisp Modular Arithmetic Library 15:42:33 http://jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/papers/modular/modular.pdf 15:42:44 I need to chronologically compare timestamps which are strings (as returned be postmodern) - is there some function or library? 15:43:09 slyrus_: I don't know if that's what you meant 15:43:11 yup 15:43:11 mcxx: doesn't postmodern convert to universal-time? 15:43:53 mcxx: if not, maybe it offers functions to do that conversion for you... integers are probably way easier to compare (: 15:44:00 Xof: that's what I was thinking of. thanks! 15:44:04 mcxx: if they are ISO-8601 timestamps with the same time zone, you can compare them with string< and friends. 15:45:32 antifuchs: ah, you're right, there's something in the simple-date library 15:45:44 mcxx: what format are the strings, out of curiosity? 15:45:52 great (: 15:46:19 lemoinem [n=swoog@x-132-204-240-247.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:46:32 slyrus: implementing Schneir's Seive in CL? (: 15:46:58 splittist: horizontal differencing for tiff images 15:47:54 though it seems there's some problem with it, will investigate 15:48:23 -!- Super [n=al@2.2.8.b.0.7.4.0.1.0.0.2.ip6.arpa] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:44 -!- topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:50 @ : http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=3555380&SiteID=1 15:49:17 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:44 -!- pjb [n=t@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:02 Xach: sorry, missed your question, the string format is "2008-10-30 15:31:33.596412+00" 15:50:31 mcxx: you can use string comparisons for that. 15:50:59 i think you might want to stop at the . or shortly after. 15:51:00 mcxx: get the latest local-time repo and call (local-time:set-local-time-cl-postgres-readers). then postmodern will return local-time instances 15:51:07 use *natural sort* 15:51:10 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:51:23 *Xach* gets a tingling younderian sensation 15:51:55 yrlnry [n=mjd@treebase-demo.cis.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 15:52:18 Who's the guy who invented Common Lisp's "format" feature? His name is Dan something, but I forget. 15:52:26 Daniel Weinreb 15:52:48 We heard about your exchange. 15:52:50 neurogeek_ [n=neurogee@201.208.73.206] has joined #lisp 15:52:51 *Xach* giggled 15:52:54 lol..Dan something 15:52:57 ;-) 15:53:00 Thanks! 15:53:07 Which exchange? 15:53:11 exchange? 15:53:46 yrlnry: the oospla one with dan. 15:53:49 \The one where he asked if it was doing an automatic deconstruction and I said "Yes, it's doing DESTRUCTURING-BIND"? 15:54:16 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:54:18 yrlnry: The one where you said something about Perl regexps and FORMAT, and then Dan said "I wrote FORMAT" 15:54:28 Oh, that exchange! 15:54:35 details! 15:54:36 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 15:54:37 more :-) 15:54:42 mib_c4atm6vk: Check the logs. 15:54:55 minion, logs 15:54:55 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 15:54:57 And then I thanked him for inventing the perfect response to Smug Lisp Weenies who criticize the Perl regex syntax for being horrible. 15:55:12 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:55:36 yrlnry's book on FP in PERL rox 15:55:38 yrlnry: We have Perl regexes now, too ;) 15:55:43 he he 15:56:12 minion is a bot? 15:56:21 mib_c4atm6vk: minion is a bot. 15:56:25 MHOOO [n=nah@6-108.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:56:30 ah, problem solved - as written in the docs, when loading simple-date after postmodern, it associates readers and writters for the appropriate data types, so now I can work with the timestamp class defined in the library, which is OK for me 15:56:51 thanks Xach 15:57:00 i tend to steer clear of complex format strings even after two years of lisping. but just recently wrote one recently in a print-object that prints an indented tree... 15:58:17 mcxx: fyi, local-time is scheduled to replace simple-date. it's just missing one last feature: a partial timestamp object to represent things like a date... 15:58:19 sellout was right. I was a bit taken aback. 15:58:29 Thanks for reminding me what his name was. 15:58:37 but can I somehow define, that simple-date has to be loaded after postmodern? is it sufficient that :simple-date will be later in the defpackage than :postmodern? 15:59:01 how can someone forget dan's name? 15:59:04 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 15:59:04 :-O 15:59:05 attila_lendvai: hmmm, ok, I'll look at local-time 15:59:19 mib_c4atm6vk: Please don't write *everything* that pops into your head. 15:59:34 mib_c4atm6vk: yrlnry isn't exactly a daily lisper. 15:59:35 mcxx: not a big deal if you are after some short hack, but i'd go with local-time for anything lasting 16:00:01 I am quite capable of forgetting nearly anything. 16:00:14 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:00:14 apologies. that oospla is on youtube? 16:00:42 I don't know. But I do know that they are going to make all the talks available online, synchronized with the slides, eventually. 16:00:49 attila_lendvai: I'm working on a long-term project, so it's probably a better idea to use local-time 16:01:24 cracki [n=cracki@41-077.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:02:03 Ooh. "Alan Kay bashing Edsger Dijkstra in 1997 OOPSLA Keynote" 16:02:16 hi guys, is there some sort of a command to the "format" function that would print a string n times? something like (format t "~n~(hello~)" 3) and it would print the string hello three times (of course I made up the stuff inside the quotes) 16:02:40 I heard a lot of cool stuff happened there.. seems even MS came with F# or something.. saw Joe's video.. wanted to mail dan for video linky but he has only the ilc id which he does not check often 16:02:55 @inetic : loop 16:03:04 lambda 16:04:00 clhs ~T 16:04:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cfa.htm 16:04:10 inetic: not built-in to format 16:04:13 mib_c4atm6vk: thanks, I know I could make it with loop or lambda, I was just curious (since the format function allready has plenty of thinks that ease this kind of tasks) 16:05:00 Xach, thanks 16:05:18 there was a reason: http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/format-stinks.html 16:05:19 :-) 16:06:08 I dunno if it stinks. It's kind of appalling in some ways. 16:06:52 I admire it, actually. 16:07:04 That's one of the sections in CLTL that I reread for fun. 16:07:06 milanj [n=milan@77.46.248.122] has joined #lisp 16:07:15 ha ha.. in perl you would do print "hello" x $n 16:07:18 :-) I read it like a week ago, the article might have some good ideas but I believe that guy takes it too personally :-) 16:07:19 ? 16:07:30 mjd.. was I wrong? 16:08:07 c|mell [n=cmell@v113243.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 16:08:13 wrong about what? 16:08:30 print "hello" x $n -> "format" function that would print a string n times? 16:08:40 in PERL that is 16:09:07 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Success] 16:09:20 Well, sort of. $a x $b does build a string that has $a repeated $b times. 16:09:44 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has joined #lisp 16:09:58 I'm not sure I'd want to compare it with format. I think the Perl "pack" facility is a lot more analogous to format. 16:10:00 you had code to compile PERL to lisp right? 16:10:07 Not me. 16:10:09 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 16:10:19 :-x 16:11:17 actualy there might be a better way of doing what I want to achieve, basically I would like to indent a text I generate on the fly and the repeating thing I was asking about was to meant to do this 16:11:33 oo 16:11:52 Doesn't format have some ~J escape that right-justifies text? 16:12:43 yrlnry, don't know, haven't read the full spec of format function, gonna check it out, thanks 16:13:36 Holy shit, I was joking, but it's true. 16:14:33 inetic: ~T 16:14:47 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:47 H4ns must have had his psychic-debugging hat on. 16:15:00 :D 16:16:32 Xach, many thanks that seems to be just it 16:17:31 H4ns: hey, give that back. 16:18:15 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-15-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 16:18:49 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:33 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:24:36 This Drew McDermott article about format asks and answers the obvious question about format. 16:24:53 yup 16:26:29 prxq [n=mommer@Ya614.y.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:58 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 16:27:18 @Xach : http://xach.livejournal.com/193855.html - but there is *n8* free lisp for windows (leaving out clisp) 16:27:28 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:03 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:29:05 s/n8/no 16:29:08 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:09 -!- cracki [n=cracki@41-077.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:23 can i create a keyword from a string? i wanna call a function like (foo :mykeyword (some form)). currently (some form) evaluates to a string. 16:29:33 mib_c4atm6vk: SBCL? 16:29:33 mib_c4atm6vk: sbcl is coming along for windows 16:29:42 SCL? 16:29:47 (free as in beer) 16:29:52 (so, nm) 16:30:14 sbcl! 16:30:16 ccl 16:30:23 krumholt: you certainly can, see find-symbol or intern 16:30:29 splittist: ccl is what started this. 16:30:52 clozure has lots of issues.. but better than sbcl.. but still too much of issues on windows 16:30:54 krumholt: also see symbol-string, experiment and read documentation before claiming that they don't work. 16:31:20 sellout: Oh. I take that as a sign. 16:31:24 mib_c4atm6vk: Yeah, the CCL port is still alpha. 16:31:25 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit ["Signing off"] 16:32:04 (or beta?) I can't keep up with platforms I don't use. 16:32:20 *everything* lisp associated with windows is alpha 16:32:35 mib_c4atm6vk: ? 16:32:41 mib_c4atm6vk: Lispworks is nice on Windows. 16:32:43 lisp => you loose if you use windows ? 16:32:53 ah.. but what about the nice limitations? 16:33:01 mib_c4atm6vk: allegro also works great on windows. 16:33:03 And makes nice applications: http://www.inspiration.com/InspireData 16:33:29 @H4ns : agree with Lispworks and allegro 16:33:42 but they are either too expensive or go out of they way to not let you use slime 16:34:06 mib_c4atm6vk: True, LW does make slime hard. 16:34:11 allegro works fine with slime 16:34:16 (the free version does, not the pay version) 16:35:32 ths_ [n=ths@p549AF97F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:36 -!- derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:38:53 @sellout : the free version of allgero is badly crippled 16:39:04 and the full version is TIGHTLY interagted with their IDE :'( 16:39:20 mib_c4atm6vk: no. 16:39:23 The way I see it - use Linux if you wanna do anything lisp.. what do you guys think? 16:39:33 i use osx 16:39:37 @H4ns.. do let me know where I am wrong 16:39:39 mib_c4atm6vk: the real issue with allegro is the licensing. otherwise it is just fine. 16:39:43 call me mib.. 16:40:02 allegro is obscene with the paid version .. 5000+ !! :-O 16:40:03 mib_c4atm6vk: i don't use linux. windows and freebsd here. 16:40:07 -!- neurogeek_ [n=neurogee@201.208.73.206] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:26 if I wanted to hear tedious discussions about proprietary lisps, I'd be on some other network 16:40:37 please move such discussions elsewhere 16:41:02 <_8david> proq: really? who's working on it? 16:45:36 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:46:01 @Xof : I agree with your view.. but not all customers use lisp.. and buying a commercial license for a niche product is a tough thing 16:46:38 getting lisp to work on AIX/windows is pain.. even 16:47:22 mib_c4atm6vk: if you want free lisp, use a free os. if you want commercial os, use commercial lisp. it is really that easy. 16:47:22 mib_c4atm6vk: Your nick is new, but you seem very familiar. Have you been here before with a different nick? 16:47:52 I don't use Linux... 16:48:10 Riastradh: neither do i 16:48:48 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:54 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:49:59 @H4ns.. yes you have logic in that 16:50:09 enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:09 @beach: any names you have at mind? 16:50:30 @Riastradh : what you use on windows? 16:51:04 mib_c4atm6vk: I take that to be a "yes". 16:51:18 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AEF4B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:51:18 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 16:53:49 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@6-108.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:54:05 topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has joined #lisp 16:54:46 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.94.15] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:55:12 MHOOO [n=nah@6-202.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:59:38 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BB53.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0084.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:59:48 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 17:00:39 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:00:44 mib_c4atm6vk: not all *customers* use lisp? what exactly are you selling? 17:02:24 nothing yet.. but a product developed in lisp would be hard to port to any other "mainstream" language.. python maybe,, but oh well 17:03:13 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:18 way I see it.. develop things in lisp if you are goign to provide a serivec.. not products that will be run on far away computers outside you reach 17:03:19 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:03:49 mib_c4atm6vk: because....? 17:04:20 -!- tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:04:51 <_8david> does mibbit.com still mean gavino, or do we have other mibbit.com users there days? 17:05:08 who is gavino? 17:05:21 *blush* i fed the troll, time to go home! 17:05:48 I will just shut up 17:06:09 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB8E32.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:07:02 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:09:10 attila_lendvai: you are the maintainer of local-time? 17:09:13 _8david: there are others 17:09:40 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@195.20.207.210] has joined #lisp 17:10:24 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-7f1fbe5f492f7e37] has joined #lisp 17:11:07 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:11:07 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:15 I am sorry I trolled. I did not realize it would turn into one but it did, so I will just leave. 17:11:52 mcxx: attila is the primary contributor. technically, I'm the maintainer 17:12:31 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:13:01 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-0.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:06 mcxx: well, i'd say i'm *a* primary contributor, but dlowe is running the whole thing 17:13:17 Any numerical analysts in the house? 17:13:52 gigamonkey: you know the rule: don't ask meta-questions, just ask your question. 17:13:54 dlowe: so you can probably edit the website - the 'darcs get http://www.common-lisp.net/project/local-time/darcs/local-time' is not working, you have to drop 'www.' to make it work, just to let you know 17:14:07 mcxx: oops. thanks! 17:14:28 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:41 mcxx: all fixed 17:15:20 :) 17:19:18 gigamonkey pasted "Help me with some floating point foo?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69451 17:19:31 sorry beach. 17:20:18 gigamonkey, are you trying to hose the voting system!!!? 17:20:19 :P 17:21:46 amnesiac: I'm trying to speed this up a bit (http://www.gigamonkeys.com/election/election.xul, Firefox 3 only) 17:22:10 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:44 without thinking about it too hard, and without reading your code, I'd suggest adding logarithms of probabilities rather than multiplying probabilities 17:23:38 when you add probabilities together, be sure to start with the smallest 17:24:14 but basically, what you are likely to be observing is that floating-point addition isn't associative: a + (b + c) does not always equal (a + b) + c 17:24:24 Xof: Hmmm. Good idea. 17:25:00 so, instead of maintaining the state (no pun intended) as just the sum of accumulated probabilities, maintain the full list and add it (in the right order, smallest first) each time you need it 17:25:27 full list of what? 17:25:39 probabliies vs state 17:26:30 schasi [n=schasi@p54A2457A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:09 instead of having your current state as a number, which you can remove and add states to (if you see what I mean), have the state of your calculation be a hash table or similar 17:27:15 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A2457A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:27:34 OT - I know gigamonkey is Pascal, who is Xof? He's good! 17:27:56 oO 17:27:57 yes.. state can be key of the hash 17:28:08 how do you feel, gigamonkey, at being misidentified? Better or worse than not being famous at all? 17:28:08 Xof is obviously losing his touch 17:28:26 oh no.. I am wrong again 17:28:29 Xof: somehow, I'll survive. 17:28:30 :'( 17:28:38 no serisouly.. how is who? 17:28:45 google is failing me .. please 17:28:49 I am serious 17:29:01 That's a tall request coming from "mib_" 17:29:08 mib_c4atm6vk: Didn't you promise to be quiet? 17:29:20 yes.. but the suspense is killing me 17:29:23 plz 17:29:28 mib_c4atm6vk: Go away. 17:29:37 Xof: you mean each element of the ev-probabilities array? 17:29:41 promise.. but after the names 17:29:51 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 17:29:53 mib_c4atm6vk: add .com to my nick 17:29:57 -!- Xach [n=xach@207.5.178.18] has been kicked from #lisp 17:29:59 er, add s.com to my nick 17:30:01 merci bien 17:30:10 -!- yrlnry [n=mjd@treebase-demo.cis.upenn.edu] has quit ["Bye"] 17:31:04 maybe I'd better read your code and think a bit 17:31:08 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.94.15] has joined #lisp 17:31:34 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 17:32:05 gigamonkey: yes, I think that is what I mean 17:32:13 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:06 BrianRice [n=briantri@207.224.31.206] has joined #lisp 17:33:50 Where do I find information on the :text-editor type of panes? 17:34:27 gigamonkey annotated #69451 with "The basic problem -- I think" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69451#1 17:34:41 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:55 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 17:35:32 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:36:02 well maybe text-editor-gadget.lisp 17:37:12 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:37:14 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:41 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@6-202.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:38:53 mathrick pasted "SLIME compilation failure with SBCL 1.0.21" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69453 17:39:02 anyone familiar with the above error? 17:39:21 I just upgraded from SBCL .18 to .21 and it dies thusly 17:42:27 the error is not familiar to me, but it's common to update sbcl and slime simultaneously, so try slime from cvs 17:42:57 novaburst [i=nova@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has joined #lisp 17:43:27 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-7f1fbe5f492f7e37] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:43:43 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:49 stassats`: yeah, that was my next bet 17:43:55 asdf25 [n=asdf25@pool-96-255-79-39.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:59 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:20 although I dislike updating slime, it has the nasty, nasty habit of introducing bucketloads of regressions :\ 17:44:28 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-0.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:49 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-0.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:57 hum. 17:45:06 I just released cl-launch 2.09 17:45:15 i remember that recent sbcl brought some incompatibility 17:45:45 I punted on ECL, but I believe ECL will work once they fix a bug on their side. 17:46:18 pjb [n=t@intergruas.easynet.es] has joined #lisp 17:47:33 cl-launch is the ultimate programming horror. After that, anything looks simple and robust. 17:47:38 heh 17:47:49 *mathrick* throws some STL at Fare 17:48:28 *Fare* dodges with linker failures and shells dying with memory erros. 17:49:19 *cmm* is an innocent bystander, but dies under the weight of a hundred unscutable compiler diagnostics 17:49:57 cmm: you mean, your compilers actually issue DIAGNOSTICS? 17:50:19 that's way too modern. 17:50:31 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.94.15] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:50:38 Fare: I guess they mean to 17:50:54 Good evening. 17:51:35 the C++ compilers I have to write code for can't handle fancy stuff like exceptions or templates. take that! 17:52:36 Fare: jokes aside, being defeated by the cleverness of your own code is Not Fun. my sympathies 17:52:36 hm. duplicate nikodemus mail again again. 17:53:49 cmm: before I die, I want to be defeated by the cleverness of code written by code I wrote. 17:53:59 :) 17:54:30 heh 17:57:26 GHHHHHRRRRRRRRRRR 17:57:32 http://paste.lisp.org/display/69287 still fails 17:57:37 I can't step into FOO 17:58:22 ie. calling (bar) works, it breaks correctly, I can step through BAR, but as soon as I want to go into FOO invocation, it says "evaluation aborted" and that's it 17:58:44 any ideas? 17:59:01 I upgraded SBCL in hopes it'd help, but to no avail :( 17:59:17 mulligan [n=user@e178048050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:00:12 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-050c807ceb73c9f7] has joined #lisp 18:00:29 Xof: so if I'm summing logs of probabilities rather than multiplying probabilities, is there some standard way of dealing with probabilities of 0? 18:00:46 I think you're basically right; the problem is one of (a + b) - b not equalling a + (b - b) 18:02:30 Actually my theory was the initial error came from the division. So it's (a + b) - b' not equal to a + (b - b) where b' is very slightly off from b. 18:03:22 I don't see why the division should be blamed more than the multiplication 18:03:38 Yeah, I don't know. 18:03:40 but anyway, yes 18:04:54 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 18:05:31 besiria [n=user@ppp083212085103.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 18:05:31 Okay, I really must stop playing with this and go do real work. If you have any ideas, feel free to memo or email me. Thanks for your help. 18:05:34 this question is interesting, in a kind of "I wish I had time to spend working out an answer" kind of way 18:05:41 oh, you too? Shame :-) 18:05:45 heh. 18:06:12 Later. 18:06:14 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-0.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:07:58 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:28 ciscbrain [n=eugen@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 18:10:49 sykopomp|class [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:13:53 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:15:23 josemanuel [n=josemanu@102.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:16:15 -!- sykopomp|class [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:55 -!- pjb [n=t@intergruas.easynet.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:17:35 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:18:41 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:20:30 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@30.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:49 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:21:45 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 18:22:55 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 18:24:37 ug [n=merlin@67.159.169.138] has joined #lisp 18:25:36 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-0.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:21 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:26:43 Heh, this may be old news but I just discovered Pragmatic Programmers is putting out a book on Clojure. 18:26:58 http://pragprog.com/titles/shcloj/programming-clojure 18:27:00 sweet 18:27:18 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:27:34 *gigamonk`* sheds a small tear over no longer having the youngest, sexiest Lisp book on the block 18:27:39 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:06 nice 18:30:09 nice nice 18:30:17 gigamonk`: but yours is the bestest :P 18:30:22 Lisp RELOADED 18:30:25 like the metallica album! 18:30:25 thanks 18:31:10 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:31:20 I have a pipe dream that maybe with things like Clojure out there and gaining acceptance maybe some day we can work on a new Common Lisp standard that addresses the needs and issues of today (and maybe some of tomorrow) - like that missing networking section, for example 18:31:24 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-17-237.kosnet.ru] has quit ["LOVE."] 18:31:32 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:41 sigh 18:31:52 is it 2:30 already? 18:32:02 rpg [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has joined #lisp 18:32:12 still thursday, so still no pessimism allowed 18:32:32 -!- rpg is now known as Guest90565 18:33:03 benny [n=benny@i577A0084.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:33:10 pjb [n=t@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:21 -!- Guest90565 is now known as rpg 18:34:20 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-abb9c0ac14ef8808] has joined #lisp 18:34:28 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0FE9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:54 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:39:29 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:00 pessimisms only on fridays, antifuchs? 18:41:06 s/-s/s 18:41:09 every other day 18:41:15 meh. s/ms// 18:41:16 OK 18:41:30 Yesterday and tomorrow, but never today. 18:41:37 I see. 18:41:40 That's a good rule to live by. 18:42:03 ug: CL+ would be a good thing to have 18:42:25 we have cl:+ already 18:42:33 networking shouldn't be part of the specs... 18:43:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:44:23 stassats`: but that's a different thing 18:44:48 tic: I actually wasn't thinking about networking, there are other things I'd like to see 18:44:52 mathrick: slightly 18:45:26 although I guess at that point everyone agrees that having the next CL would be a good thing 18:45:44 (that doesn't necessarily imply that there is a clear idea as to how to get there, though) 18:45:54 I don't think I agree with that. 18:46:06 kreuter, having a next CL or not knowing how to get there? 18:46:34 not without knowing what a "next CL" is supposed to be. 18:46:42 having a next Lisp, sure. 18:47:00 and I'd really like that Lisp to be a CL 18:47:20 I'm not too content with Clojure dropping multi-paradigmity for instance 18:47:44 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:48:02 kreuter: I think the point is, at least as I read Gabriel, the current Common Lisp is not the only Common Lisp and if we work on new Lisps then eventually we should come together with a new Common Lisp 18:48:23 ug, in what way is CL not the only CL? 18:48:30 mathrick: Yeah, well you get into lots of fun tradeoffs with concurrency. 18:48:38 kreuter: but knowing what "next CL" is falls into "no clear idea" I mentioned 18:48:41 tic: it's a quote, maybe misattributed 18:48:49 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:48:49 mop should be part of the spec, and gray-streams 18:48:50 it is a misquote. 18:48:55 stassats`: YES! 18:49:03 I don't agree about gray streams. 18:49:12 kreuter, why so? 18:49:22 s/gray/extensible/ 18:49:24 (possibly s/gray streams/extensible streams) 18:49:32 right, that's why :) 18:49:33 tic: gray streams are not flawless 18:49:35 tic: why are you against networking in the spec? 18:49:43 ug, define "networking". 18:49:53 ug: because "networking" is impossible to define 18:49:55 silenius [n=jl@e178050166.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:50:10 Let him answer. :) 18:50:17 tic: an interface from one networked system to another - I don't care that it follows a socket model so long as it can be implemented and work with sockets 18:50:24 sockets are just the immediate need 18:50:41 ug, what in Common Lisp does currently stop you from doing that, using FFI? 18:50:41 well, exactly 18:50:49 it would be nice, though surely improbably impossible, to have a well specified interface to a networking stack as part of a standard 18:51:28 mathrick: in the absence of agreement to ground rules like "conforming programs of ANSI Common Lisp 1994 are conforming programs of \"next CL\"", I don't know what to think about calling something a "next CL". 18:51:30 i've never thought about using FFI to use networking functions in something else... 18:51:45 ug, what would it do? does it have to be networking? or could it be abstracted to a kind of multi-user-aware Lisp, if it's the "communication between systems" you want? 18:51:48 bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:57 -!- asdf25 [n=asdf25@pool-96-255-79-39.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:52:02 kreuter: oh, but I thought it being _a_ CL would imply compatibility, sorry if that was unclear 18:52:34 mathrick, but if it's compatible with CL, it's a superset, and thus implemetnable on top of CL, no? 18:52:35 tic: I don't know but that is a good thought provoking question :). I would wager that anything abstracted enough to allow a multi-user-aware Lisp would probably also allow me to do simple networking too 18:52:37 tic: So then you think FFI should be part of the "next" spec? 18:52:41 mathrick: well, some folks disagree about whether that's even a prerequisite. 18:52:46 tic: of course 18:52:56 tic: but the value of CL is in the "C" part 18:52:59 sellout, I have no opinion. I'm just playing the devil's advocate. 18:53:05 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a8b76e292fc2294e] has joined #lisp 18:53:22 ug, right. so maybe you don't want networking in the spec, after-all? 18:53:47 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a8b76e292fc2294e] has quit [Client Quit] 18:54:01 having FFI is tempting, but then, what would it be defined to call out to? 18:54:02 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@207.224.31.206] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:54:36 lol, maybe. I mentioned it as it is an oft-mentioned oversight. Doesn't mean we haven't worked around it (isn't usocket in the topic?), but some specified interface to a networking stack would certainly help with adoption for some people (which you may or may not care about) 18:54:44 I'd rather see MOP being everywhere, standardised advice functionality, user-extensible sequences 18:54:48 language should survive through time, and tying to one particular network or parallelism/concurrency model isn't good 18:54:50 -!- cmalune [n=cmalune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has quit [] 18:55:08 *Xach* upcases ß 18:55:22 SS 18:55:41 Xach: next you're going to tell us you've squared the circle. 18:56:12 ISTR that according to the new unicode, it should be ß in the upper case, as well. 18:56:27 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 18:56:30 I thought it was one glyph that happened to look like SS 18:56:36 kreuter: Nope 18:56:42 It changes the length of the string :) 18:56:43 SZ ligature 18:56:53 antifuchs: indeed, python upcases ß to ß 18:57:01 but that's not correct according to german rules 18:57:03 sellout: "length of the string" has zero meaning in our brave new world. 18:57:06 upper case of ß is SS 18:57:14 antifuchs: Wait, what? 18:57:15 mathrick: it might be in a newer revision of german 18:57:30 quick! fix german so that Unicode isn't broken! 18:57:33 I do recall reading something to that effect 18:57:34 heh, but German has a notoriously slow release cycle 18:57:37 also, mathrick, when I was speaking I was not talking about a superset or compatibility of current CL. I was talking about NEXT CL. Which may or may not be compatible with current CL (most likely, not, I would think). The discussion we're having now about WHAT to put in it is exactly what would make it different. 18:57:42 A different CL for a different time 18:57:45 mathrick: not in the last few years it didn't (: 18:57:55 ug, you fail to provide me with a compelling argument as to why networking/sockets has to be mandatory by an implementation. You have to separate what constitutes the language and what is utilites. There is nothing stopping anyone from providing the kitchen sink with Lisp compilers. 18:57:55 mathrick: see what I mean about ground rules? ;) 18:58:04 kreuter: Really? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd assume that even linguists have a concept of string length ... might be fuzzy, though. 18:58:08 antifuchs: really? Did you have anything besides the new ortography? 18:58:16 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.197.240] has quit [] 18:58:26 mathrick: well, that, but there were a few point-releases of that in rapid seqence (: 18:58:41 ug: one of the ground rules in working on CL was to keep as much compatibility as possible 18:58:46 They did change the usage of ß already, didn't they? 18:58:56 I see absolutely no reason to throw that away if you insist on calling it CL still 18:58:56 *Xach* is glad to have done this service for the channel 18:58:58 "they" == germany 18:59:14 Xach: what service? 18:59:42 dißtraction 18:59:48 Germans should just have to type "s" and let the display system insert the ligature. 18:59:51 ouch 18:59:53 ßervice 18:59:58 (that is even more ouch) 19:00:08 sellout: hahaha 19:00:12 sellout: splendid idea 19:00:14 tic: well, where are we stopping with utilities? I am not sure there needs to be a LOT of networking-related interfaces in the language CORE, but I do think the language standard should accurately specify the low level utility functions built on whatever low level builtins as part of the language. Kinda like it already is for some languages/implementations (core language with more language features built in terms of it) 19:00:48 hm, I can't find a reference now, but I have a distinct memory of a change to that effect. will keep looking. 19:00:51 Languages evolve much faster than one might think. I don't notice it in the place where I live, but in places I visit ever two years or so. 19:00:57 tic: again the only reason I really mentioned networking is because it is often mentioned and having it well specified would mean that managers could like it more :P 19:01:06 ug: have you ever looked at CL paths subsystem? 19:01:18 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:01:30 Yeah. Imagine the PATHNAMES of networking. *shrug* 19:01:42 Is there by any chance a with-timeout type macro in SBCL? It's alluded to in the manual, but not actually documented there? 19:01:50 ug: that's what happens when you take "whatever lowlevel functionality there is" and build a highlevel abstraction to work with any of it 19:01:56 mathrick: no, I have not looked at paths subsystem 19:02:06 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:11 Upcasing "ß" is much less problematic than downcasing "SS". Even if you know it's german, you still need to know if it follows a long or short vowel, or a dipthong. 19:02:47 ug: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_19-2.html 19:02:48 have fun 19:02:59 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.197.240] has joined #lisp 19:03:03 mathrick: re keeping as much compatability as possible, didn't the maclisp guys get the better end of the compatability stick? 19:03:04 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-184-20.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:03:04 german reference for the upper-case ß thing: http://www.focus.de/wissen/bildung/neuer-buchstabe_aid_57103.html (apparently, not official yet) 19:03:05 Alternatively, take a look at BSD sockets. That's something else that happened when someone took `whatever low-level functionality there is' and built a high-level abstraction to work with any of it. 19:03:28 -!- pdeb [n=user@li37-218.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:03:36 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:03:43 antifuchs: eww 19:04:03 ug: so? 19:04:11 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 19:04:50 mathrick: lol 19:05:40 the next CL would have the advantage of only working with one Lisp dialect 19:05:55 rpg: sb-ext:with-timeout 19:05:56 throwing away the compatibility in this case would be inexcusable 19:06:19 stassats`: Is there doc for it --- it doesn't seem to be in the manual. 19:06:29 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 19:06:35 mathrick: that is a good point, indeed 19:06:37 rpg: it has docstring 19:11:10 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:19 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 19:13:04 *Xach* withdraws all his previous comments about typos in papers 19:15:57 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.197.240] has quit [] 19:16:01 stassats`: You wouldn't by any chance know where it was defined, would you? 19:16:19 stassats`: I.e., in what piece of the sbcl source? 19:16:20 hi. Yesterday after changing my machine to dual core one I've noticed reproducible spinlock deadlocks in my app running under SBCL 1.0.21 in src/pcl/dfun.lisp, with SBCL internals in the call trace starting from CACHE-MISS-VALUES IIRC. I decided to hunt them down today, but today they won't show up... Did anyone encounter something like this? 19:17:08 ivan4th: i haven't seen that on my dual core system 19:17:24 rpg: src/code/timer.lisp 19:17:30 rpg: is your M-. busted? :) 19:17:32 rpg: use M-. 19:17:39 antifuchs: nice! 19:18:06 *Xach* wonders about adding docstrings to l1sp.org 19:18:18 ivan4th: never seen that 19:18:26 I don't have a source checkout --- pulled a binary. So for quick access, was jumping to sourceforge. Trying to paper over the ACL/SBCL with-timeout differences. 19:18:33 If I write a file in SBCL with with-open-file (... :direction :output :if-exists :supersede) is there some reason the file's timestamp wouldn't change? 19:18:36 Xach: and # reader dispatch! 19:18:51 Xach: :( maybe it was between *effective-method-cache* and some generic function locks, but I'm not quite familiar with this code. It worries me a lot but I cannot reproduce it anymore :( 19:18:56 gigamonk`: which timestamp? 19:19:11 antifuchs: yes, yes 19:19:12 the one reported by ls -l 19:19:22 hm 19:19:26 Well, heck. The sourceforge CVS viewer is busted. So much for my shortcut. 19:19:26 posix stat 19:19:27 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xsh/stat.html 19:19:42 Xach: btw I noticed that in your zs3 example code you declare-ignore specializer parameters 19:19:42 Or more to the point, whatever one Apache uses to answer If-Modified-Since questions. 19:19:52 (specialized) 19:19:54 Xach: very very easy with window.location.hash (: 19:20:01 gigamonk`: did you actually write anything into the file? 19:20:24 adeht: i did that because some lisps complain loudly about unused parameters in method bodies. is it a bad idea? 19:20:25 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:20:58 antifuchs: ok, smart guy, what should i do about CL:/ ? 19:21:00 kreuter: yes. 19:21:01 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:21:02 antifuchs: æh? 19:21:03 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 19:21:08 Xach: hah 19:21:23 Xach: tricky /-: 19:21:23 *Xach* has no ideas on that one :( 19:21:29 gigamonk`: POSIX sayeth that the mtime and ctime get updated only by write. 19:21:33 hrm. 19:21:45 are you maybe using NFS? 19:21:49 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 19:21:52 actually, i had some ideas but they were all unsatisfying 19:22:34 Xach: make the cl:/ path go to the / page (: 19:22:34 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:22:34 I mean, the "cl:" directory. or something (: 19:22:39 hmmm, maybe Apache is doing it right. Maybe ls -l doesn't show what I think it does. 19:22:48 http://l1sp.org/cl/cl:/? 19:22:52 Xach: I think it is.. I can't remember if it had unspecified or undefined behavior, but the standard makes it clear that defmethod refers to these parameters and that ignore in that case specifies that the defmethod shouldn't refer to them 19:23:01 Bah, now ls -l is showing the timestamp changing. 19:23:06 Xach: better than nothing 19:23:14 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.197.240] has joined #lisp 19:23:23 Xach: these implementations should be fixed, imo.. I suppose the safe workaround is to declare ignorable 19:23:25 gigamonk`: by a very small floating point value? 19:23:37 adeht: ok, thanks for the info 19:23:47 Xach: :-PPP 19:23:55 gigamonk`: ls -l is supposed to show the mtime. 19:24:09 which should be changing, right? 19:24:10 Xach: the more interesting problem is cl:// and cl:/// 19:24:19 yes. 19:24:31 and for that, there doesn't seem to be a good solution /-: 19:24:43 And presumably is the one Apache would use for If-Modified-Since 19:24:49 well, you could use the hash in the url... but that's not doubleplusgood, either 19:24:51 gigamonk`: are you on a network file system, or Windows? 19:24:56 hello lispers 19:25:06 my tech.coop VPS 19:25:28 Not Windows. Don't know if that counts as a network file system. 19:25:52 I think some NFS setups may occasionally get confused about timestamps. 19:26:05 antifuchs: maybe i can specify an encoding scheme like http://l1sp.org/cl/(/)(/)(/) 19:26:12 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 19:26:20 Is there an easy way to tell if I'm using NFS? 19:26:26 haha 19:26:36 run 'mount' and eyeball the output 19:26:47 gigamonk`: "df ." in the directory where you are should show you the mount point 19:27:18 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-22-56.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:27:19 I can't imagine that Apache would use anything other than the mtime for this problem 19:27:39 (mount is unreliable because there are tricks that will result in misinterpretation /-:) 19:27:47 Okay, maybe I was just confused before. After watching closely for a while everything seems to be working more or less as I expect. 19:27:50 (I have horror stories to tell) 19:28:06 There's a tiny lag between the file being written and ls -l reflecting the new timestamp but that's the only oddity. 19:28:38 gigamonk`: in any case, I can't think of a way that whatever you're seeing could be SBCL's fault. 19:28:46 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:29:20 well, modulo some mumbojumbo about aborting closes not superseding things. 19:29:28 kreuter: I think I was chasing a phantom. Thanks for helping me regain my sanity. 19:29:41 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-abb9c0ac14ef8808] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:29:46 if you end up with some extra sanity, I could sure use it... 19:32:51 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:32:53 howcome the SLIME repl saves swank:set-default-directory into the history, but not package-change operations? 19:33:17 it used to do this 19:33:26 (I have a version that still does (-:) 19:33:41 gah. I must be cursed. 19:33:59 kreuter: welcome to the club 19:34:13 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 19:34:23 they don't look pretty, mind 19:34:35 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:54 got that deadlock in SBCL again! will look at thread stacks now 19:38:16 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:39:09 some are in MAKE-WRAPPER-INTERNAL <- FORCE-CACHE-FLUSHES, some in %CHECK-INTERRUPTS <- GET-SPINLOCK, some in (FLET WITHOUT-INTERRUPTS-BODY-[CALL-WITH-SPINLOCK]448) <- CALL-WITH-SPINLOCK 19:39:44 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:40:02 elurin [n=user@81.213.203.109] has joined #lisp 19:40:20 ivan4th: how many threads are we talking here? 19:40:54 11 deadlocked threads 19:41:29 kreuter, what filesystem are you having problems with? 19:42:08 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:42:27 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:42:38 ivan4th: it would be great if you could send representative backtraces to the sbcl-devel list 19:43:08 Do you know any big open-office related channel at freenode? 19:43:09 Fare: huh? 19:43:44 nah, sorry, misreading as usual 19:43:47 dlowe: ok, I will post them there, also, here is one 19:43:52 ivan4th pasted "backtrace from deadlocked thread" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69463 19:43:53 Fare: gigamonk` thought he was seeing file timestamps not get updated after a (with-open-file (... :if-exists :supersede) ...). 19:43:54 okay 19:44:43 reminds me that my emacs seems to have occasional freezes that seem to be related to timestamps. 19:45:16 (and when it recovers, it thinks the file on disk is newer than what emacs just wrote before freezing) 19:45:48 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-e9408203c80d2379] has joined #lisp 19:45:53 -!- topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:48:07 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-0.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Power going down to whole block."] 19:48:30 dlowe: seems like it freezes on *pcl-lock* there 19:48:36 -!- bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 19:48:37 I get that all the time when working with files that are served through SMB 19:49:07 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:53:33 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:54:00 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["go Canada!"] 19:56:57 ivan4th: pcl seems to be grouchy about a cffi foreign string being invalidated. wonder how that happened 19:57:54 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.197.240] has quit [] 19:59:45 robot_jesus [n=csanders@hoovers-241.hoovers.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:53 well CFFI func that was called was defined as (defcfun "modbus_init_tcp" :void (mb-param :pointer) (ip-address :string) (port :int)) 20:01:24 ivan4th pasted "macroexpansion of cffi function definiton" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69464 20:02:32 (these are my bindings for libmodbus, I'm going to get rid of them and write my own trivial modbus impl, but not sure whether this will help) 20:03:03 ivan4th: yes, but presumably the cffi foreign string class wasn't changed while your program was running 20:08:03 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-0.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:08:29 dlowe: I don't know PCL internals at all, but maybe this is because that class isn't used at all before these threads start? 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21:10:06 prip [n=_prip@host245-134-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:10:53 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 21:12:35 -!- photon2 is now known as photon 21:14:42 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:15:54 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:16:05 housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 21:19:04 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:19:26 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:20:25 -!- robot_jesus [n=csanders@hoovers-241.hoovers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:39 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0FE9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:41 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:21 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-32.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:29:02 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.197.240] has joined #lisp 21:32:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:33:00 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:33:28 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:40 slyrus_: png-read by ramarren 21:34:07 disumu [n=disumu@p57A24191.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:33 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #lisp 21:37:10 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 21:39:31 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:42:07 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.197.240] has quit [] 21:42:07 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:30 Fare: it would be interesting if your clock had just been changed by NTP, and the file really was in the future 21:46:08 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178048050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:46:41 Unrelatedly, when I unsuspend my laptop, firefox goes into a frenzy processing all the javascript timer events that should've occured while it was sleeping. Perhaps something similar happens to emacs if you set the clock forward. 21:47:31 Anyone have an issue recently or currently with clbuild? I am trying to do an update, and get stopped at cl-weblocks. 21:48:10 wgl: i'm not sure, but i think weblocks recently moved to a different location and a new maintainer 21:48:46 Indeed. 21:49:18 THere's a thread on the mailing list about it; http://groups.google.com/group/weblocks/browse_thread/thread/af8b9367fdd87de7# 21:49:33 -!- frito [n=keith@host81-146-40-55.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:49:38 Weblocks still isn't as easy to set up or use as they'd like, but it's totally worth it, IMO. 21:50:03 http://teddyb.org/rlp/tiki-index.php?page=Learning+About+Weblocks -- I've been writing up my learning experiences. :) 21:50:44 xach: So in the interest of getting the rest of the clbuild going, I will try to skip it. 21:51:52 wgl: The thread I linked to above shows you how to fix it, I think, but yeah, skip it if you're trying to get something else. 21:52:14 -!- gloaming [n=steve@c-76-113-7-71.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:52:29 hi, does anyone use tinaa for creating documentation? 21:52:45 if so with which lisp implementation? 21:53:17 kreuter: is today SBCL release day, or did that get pushed back? 21:53:31 I'm doing it now. 21:54:38 Great. I'm itching to upload new builds for the various Darwin architectures. 21:54:54 okay, gimme a few minutes. 21:54:56 xbjess 21:54:59 erg 21:55:11 I see a new password in your future (: 21:55:12 please tell me that wasn't a password... 21:55:21 no, a failed C-x b 21:55:32 (: 21:55:34 aha :-) 21:56:05 I see a jessica in your present, then. 21:56:21 something like that. 21:56:51 just one of the many distractions in the way of sbcl-1.0.22. 21:59:18 chandler: committed and tagged. 21:59:26 Thanks! 21:59:48 and now, the horror of the sourceforge release page.. 22:00:21 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@217.202.207.196] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:01:52 kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:58 any exciting new things in this month's sbcl? 22:02:20 locklace, as far as I'm concerned, it's the standalone executable 22:02:33 --script? 22:03:15 no, :save-runtime-options t 22:03:56 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:03:56 I just release cl-launch 2.09 earlier today. I should make an announcement... 22:06:10 oh, I wasn't asking about the saved runtime options, I was saying that --script might be new and exciting. 22:07:12 Fare: cool, cl-launch looks useful 22:07:19 kreuter: that sounds useful too 22:07:26 gloaming [n=steve@c-76-113-7-71.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:56 Fare: do you know what the date for the next lisp meeting will be? I know it's really early to be asking, but I'm pretty bummed about not being able to make it on Monday :-\ 22:13:29 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:13:52 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:13:59 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0DC82.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:15:35 fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:10 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:50 chandler: would you mind updating the website page? I have to run, and am clumsy about it. 22:18:03 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:57 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-171-245.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 22:19:09 kreuter: No problem. Has the source code made it through the release system of doom? 22:19:18 I think it has 22:19:56 thanks, later. 22:20:32 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-243-129.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:21:19 -!- stassats` changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . common-lisp.net back in service, please email problems to admin@common-lisp.net. New: SBCL 1.0.22, CFFI 0.10.3, series 2.2.10, trivial-garbage 0.17, usocket 0.4.0, ABCL 0.0.11 22:21:23 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:25 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:38 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:21 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:22:54 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:22 konr` [n=user@201.82.228.185] has joined #lisp 22:23:38 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:44 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:24:36 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:06 konr`` [n=user@201.82.228.185] has joined #lisp 22:26:48 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:49 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:27:17 mulligan [n=user@e178048050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:30:40 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:34:08 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BB53.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:34:12 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:35:27 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:35:39 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:36:06 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@102.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:37:41 *wgl* Still can't get clbuild success. Now something about cl-ppcre and cffi-tests. 22:39:10 -!- konr [n=user@201.82.228.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:34 philip [n=philip@Zaa48.z.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 22:41:04 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:41:24 -!- konr` [n=user@201.82.228.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:42:39 -!- philip [n=philip@Zaa48.z.pppool.de] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 22:42:43 philip [n=philip@Zaa48.z.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 22:44:53 so, is the darwin x86-64 port really still experimental? 22:45:16 it works as well as the x86 port at this point, so I'm strongly inclined to take off the "in progress" modifier 22:45:50 *chandler* decides to beg forgiveness if necessary in this case 22:47:04 -!- philip [n=philip@Zaa48.z.pppool.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:47:44 ths_ [n=ths@X5f28.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:57 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF97F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:51:51 -!- ciscbrain [n=eugen@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:52:08 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:13 Xof: herep 22:52:19 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 22:54:10 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178048050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:46 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@30.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 22:55:36 mulligan [n=user@e178048050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:05:23 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.248.122] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:06:27 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:21 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:17:47 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:10 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:21:45 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:28:43 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 23:30:57 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:31:08 milanj [n=milan@77.46.248.122] has joined #lisp 23:31:43 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178048050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:39 -!- gloaming [n=steve@c-76-113-7-71.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:47 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.233.171] has joined #lisp 23:43:38 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:44:49 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.248] has joined #lisp 23:49:11 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:53 hot digity daaaym, self-built sbcl borks at (require :sb-bsd-socket) ==> don't know how to require sb-bsd-sockets 23:50:41 it has ASDF built in, other than that it's pretty vanilla core 23:50:50 perhaps you want (require :sb-bsd-sockets)? 23:51:06 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.248.122] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:51:11 i'm not the one doing the requiring, but SWANK 23:52:04 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:52:31 Sinden [n=Sinden@nickweinhold.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:52:45 i find it weird to do asdf-load bsd-sockets and sb-grovel before i can use swank, when official sbcl binary can do the same without manual intervention 23:53:16 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:01 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:56:32 my sbcl binary can do it too. have you properly set SBCL_HOME? 23:56:54 another thing i tried to do was handler-bind TRY-RECOMPILE failed-load restart to have sbcl try by recompiling first. but many different conditions are thrown around, like FAILED-COMPILE, and that is not nice to intercept 23:57:09 -!- rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [] 23:57:19 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:20 hmmm, never had to set that. I just do "sh install.sh" as root. 23:57:50 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:58:04 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:34 find /usr/local/lib/sbcl -iname *.fasl -exec rm -rf {} \; proved easier than messing with weird ASDF/SBCL debugger restarts ;-) 23:59:24 myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-188-30.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 23:59:47 fusss: you're probably doing things wrong