00:00:08 although if there's a unified way to do it in this age of slime, I don't know anything about it 00:03:21 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:55 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:07:24 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:10:27 -!- tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2D493.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:11:55 i have a recursive function with an optional parameter, but sbcl continues to warn that the function is called with two parameters and wants exactly one. code works, but the warnings are odd. any ideas? 00:12:17 r00k: we don't believe you, post code 00:12:19 ;) 00:12:28 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:31 r00k: that was fixed in CVS 00:12:35 S11001001: boo on you. 00:12:43 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47BC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:12:52 eh, sbcl, what is this 00:13:25 1.0.21.27 fixed it, iirc. 00:14:16 haha 00:14:50 thanks Xach 00:16:12 *Xach* lives to serve 00:16:44 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:22:02 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:25 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:24:16 -!- cpape` [n=user@p5484C3D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:24:30 -!- bedlam [i=bedlam@case.rit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:28:57 bedlam [i=bedlam@case.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 00:30:51 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:32:53 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-471d8580008d160e] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:35:18 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:38:22 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-099-65.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:46 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@v113243.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 00:42:23 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-51.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:51:04 pillton [n=user@124-171-182-34.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:52:05 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-19.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:53:31 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["restart for kernel upgrade"] 00:53:42 -!- persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 00:53:53 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:07 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:42 -!- timor101 [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:55:54 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.222.104] has joined #lisp 00:57:54 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:58:50 err` [n=user@adsl-074-166-047-242.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:41 so.. when i have a complex number, is there any way to get the rational part? 01:02:03 i'm generating a random gaussian number 01:02:16 and wish to avoid contagion 01:02:46 wanna keep it real 01:03:11 err`: a complex number has a real part and an imaginary part, doesn't it? 01:03:23 err`: which part is the rational part? 01:03:35 let's assume he means the real part :P 01:04:13 (realpart #C(0.1 0.2)) -> 0.1 01:04:17 anyway, there is two options: REALPART and IMAGPART 01:04:50 oh crap yea i really ought to have made sure i asked the right question >< damnit 01:05:16 thanks guys 01:05:31 and thank you, Xach.. keepin me sharp! 01:05:39 ^_^ 01:06:16 .. i should have remembered realpart.. 01:06:26 *BrianRice* can't find such information from http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_comple.htm#complex 01:07:06 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:35 Uh, I haven't been paying attention. Has PG abandoned Arc? 01:07:48 i don't think anyone here has paid much attention either 01:07:50 can someone point me to the part in sbcl which allows it to replace generic operations like +, and - with their typed equivalent when type information is available? 01:08:13 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-191-101.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 01:10:20 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:21 Hmm. Apparently not. At least 51 days ago he posted a comment saying (in total) "I'll have a good deal of time to work on Arc in October and November. I'll probably release some new versions then." 01:11:03 It cracks me up that there's "an unofficial fork" of Arc. 01:11:41 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:11:43 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.129.249] has joined #lisp 01:11:58 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #lisp 01:12:06 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:54 -!- jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:13:03 soon there'll only be 99 years to go 01:14:12 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:13 blitz__ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:52 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 01:19:30 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 01:20:42 Spune [n=Spune@208.118.182.50] has joined #lisp 01:22:07 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:52 it was interesting to see rich hickey introduce a language without any smug sneering or gloating about it. 01:25:31 -!- ug [n=merlin@64.47.164.86] has quit ["leaving"] 01:25:50 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:26:36 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-099-65.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:37 -!- gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:28:33 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:30:46 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:23 Does anyone know what I should google scholar (or citeseer, or whatever) for if I'm looking for papers about modeling systems of multiple components where components are joined by channels in the information theoretic sense? 01:31:33 I'd like to try and say something about the channels in the aggregate. 01:31:45 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:38 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:36:49 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:30 -!- lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:40:08 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.247.157] has joined #lisp 01:41:43 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:37 minion: logs 01:44:38 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 01:45:23 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:46:00 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 01:46:12 ths [n=ths@X55d9.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:46:21 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:46:59 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 01:56:10 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.129.249] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:56:44 -!- silenius [n=jl@e178011201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:56:45 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 01:57:48 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X48b5.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:59:01 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:59:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:01:11 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:25 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.7] has joined #lisp 02:04:20 Xach: herep 02:04:44 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:07:34 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-19.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:11:18 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 02:13:01 -!- Spune [n=Spune@208.118.182.50] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 02:18:02 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:28 -!- VityokOr` [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:20:15 etfb [n=poet@mail.hatrix.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:26 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:51 -!- pillton [n=user@124-171-182-34.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:30:05 -!- thedonvaughn [i=jvaughn@unaffiliated/printk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:30:27 thedonvaughn [i=jvaughn@slashpackage.opensourcespecialists.com] has joined #lisp 02:30:36 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:36:32 gigamonkey: nil ==> Evaluation took: 1923.344 seconds of real time. 02:37:34 why 02:38:02 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:42:42 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:46 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:27 -!- FareWell [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:50:39 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:53:20 -!- rpg|away is now known as rpg 02:55:48 -!- blitz__ is now known as blitz_ 02:56:18 -!- err` [n=user@adsl-074-166-047-242.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:58:21 -!- etfb [n=poet@mail.hatrix.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:03:06 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:07:35 sykopomp: eh? 03:09:07 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:50 If a programmer forgets he ran a process, does it still return a value? 03:10:24 pinterface: there's always the ever-popular heap explosion. Hard to miss those. 03:10:51 sykopomp: why was that thing about NIL addressed to me? 03:11:17 Xach: herep [22:04] 03:11:33 (32 minutes later..) NIL .. 03:13:57 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 03:14:30 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 03:14:45 sctb [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:10 sykopomp: ah. thanks. Someone should teach minion to do that. ;-) 03:25:35 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:25:48 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 03:26:03 sykopomp pasted "event system? Is this how it's supposed to work?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69327 03:26:52 I don't really have a terribly good idea of how these event system things are supposed to work. This seems like a fairly decent step somewhere in the vicinity of the right direction, but I could really use some pointers. 03:27:17 or perhaps something to read, or an example, to get a better idea of how to make an event system that can generate events with different arguments, etc. 03:29:35 -!- abend [n=sasha@sub26-151.member.dsl-only.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:10 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:30:11 Anyone here grok SVG 03:30:13 ? 03:30:29 gigamonkey: xach does :) 03:30:33 (hah) 03:31:57 -!- sctb [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 03:32:34 Heh. And that wasn't even why I was looking for him. 03:36:13 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:55 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:20 -!- beach` is now known as beach 03:40:36 good morning 03:40:54 mornin' beach 03:41:09 beach: you know event systems! Mind giving me a few pointers about something? :) 03:41:29 Ouch! I could try, but I doubt I can help. 03:42:12 morning beach 03:42:46 sykopomp annotated #69327 with "forget make-event..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69327#1 03:43:08 I don't really know much about event-systems, so I'm wondering if that paste represents the right idea of how they're supposed to work. 03:44:26 sykopomp: your annotation looks more plausible 03:45:25 sykopomp: Then it depends on the type of system. Some systems use a priority queue because they can generate the envents way before they "happen" such as simulation systems. 03:45:45 I'm using a priority queue implementation, weighted by 'execution-time' 03:45:47 sykopomp: some others generate them in the order they are handled, such as GUI systems, so you use a queue. 03:45:54 it doesn't pop stuff until it's 'cooked' 03:46:29 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-170-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 03:46:36 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:46:43 Sounds plausible. 03:46:52 hm 03:47:36 any hints as to a better way to handle it? I just kinda had a eureka moment when I realized I could just make process-event methods and dispatch different behaviors based on that... but now I've run into the issue of different events taking different arguments :< 03:48:03 (or heck, even some reading that would give me a better idea of what event systems are supposed to look like. WP isn't much help) 03:48:40 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:49:07 sykopomp: Yeah, that doesn't seem like the right way to do it. 03:50:04 the way I was doing it before was just writing a single event class, which has a payload, and just tossing a lambda that would be executed... 03:50:21 ..into a class slot. 03:50:52 process-event is a function right now, which is basically (funcall (payload event)) 03:50:58 I am not quite sure I understand what problem that method is supposed to solve. 03:51:21 well, it would allow me to implement things at a different level, I guess. 03:51:30 I would have lower-level code that knows when a certain event should be signaled. 03:51:56 but the actual implementation of what that event should do would be at a higher level of the code, and you'd simply write the process-event method for it, and voila. 03:52:46 I don't necessarily want to implement disconnect-avatar in avatar.lisp, but avatar.lisp is the one that knows when that should be called. 03:53:17 sykopomp: could you make a two-level object then, an outer one that knows when to signal the even, and an inner one that contains the more precise information, and that is dispatched on when the event is signaled? 03:53:24 that would avoid the argument problem. 03:53:54 oh. Let me look at the code and see what you mean. That sounds like a grand idea. 03:54:28 That's usually how it is done anyway, because the priority queue is in a different library. 03:56:04 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:56:11 *beach* vanishes to finish the last preparations for his 8:00 class. 03:56:21 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:26 beach: well, thank you. :) 03:56:39 mornin' 03:56:40 have a good day ^_^ 03:56:46 Thanks. 04:05:54 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-114-187.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:10:59 -!- DrTilt [n=browning@adsl-76-243-208-202.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:11:55 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 04:13:47 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:14:30 BillXu [n=user@58.31.70.116] has joined #lisp 04:18:55 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:19:29 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:21:46 O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-114-187.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:24:46 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:25:35 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 04:26:51 icylisper [n=Brucio-8@61.12.19.50] has joined #lisp 04:30:29 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.211.58] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.13.228] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:33:36 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-114-187.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:45:55 -!- icylisper [n=Brucio-8@61.12.19.50] has quit ["Client Quit"] 04:46:43 radetsky [n=dan@adsl-76-212-0-94.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:05 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:27 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 04:57:43 can anyone tell me how to determine/confirm the range of characters supported by CHARACTER in sbcl? 05:00:05 from my reading of the sbcl manuals, it looks like CHARACTER holds at least 256 different values (and maybe a million), but I'm getting an "octet sequence (157) cannot be decoded" error in READ-SEQUENCE 05:02:01 radetsky: perhaps an encoding issue? 157 isn't a valid UTF8 char, for example. 05:02:15 it's not? 05:02:25 are they signed or somethign? 05:02:41 -!- enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:02:50 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 05:02:52 the thing is, the file is utf8, and the stream is utf8 05:03:02 or at least, I'm pretty sure the file is utf8 05:03:37 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:48 radetsky: I don't think I can be of much more help ... drunk and sleepy. 05:04:24 but, above 128, UTF8 is multibyte 05:04:24 I understand 05:04:35 is anybody here not drunk and sleepy? 05:04:40 heh 05:04:47 g'night 05:04:52 night 05:05:26 it seems that everyone is drunk and sleepy, ;-) 05:05:59 I hate it when that happens 05:07:15 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4717B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:04 ahh, I think I get it 05:09:13 cool 05:09:18 congratulations... 05:09:21 157 is the second part of a multibyte char 05:09:46 but lisp is trying to put everything into a unibyte string 05:10:01 maybe 05:10:21 oh... 05:16:37 radetsky: no, that is most definitely not what the error message says. 05:17:32 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:14 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:03 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44DCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:17 do you know what it says? 05:20:38 my impression was that it didn't get the first part 05:21:13 like it's trying to treat (157) as one thing, but 157 is supposed to be the second part of, e.g., (103 157) 05:21:18 or something 05:22:35 radetsky: then the failure to synchronize must have happened before, because 103 is a valid ASCII character, so a valid UTF8 character as well. 05:22:44 I just made 103 up 05:23:03 radetsky: well, check it by using `od'. 05:23:17 (rather than making things up, I mean). 05:26:32 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:27:36 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:18 preceeding character is 80 05:28:34 but before that is 332 05:28:49 radetsky: 332? 05:29:06 probably 332 + 80 is intepreted as a utf8 combination, and then it fails on 157 05:29:21 maybe I'm not reading the od right 05:29:48 beach: nope, 80 (I'm assuming octal) must be a single byte, because the high bit isn't set. 05:30:01 no, 80 is decimal 05:30:06 all these have been decimal 05:30:13 decimal would also be true (332 decimal doesn't fit in a byte...) 05:30:31 oh, right, it doesn't. 05:30:44 radetsky: you must use an option to od that gives you single bytes. 05:31:21 I'll be back later 05:32:03 you can just use hexdump. 05:32:04 oh, wait, nm 05:32:10 yeah, i used xxd 05:32:17 I think I see the problem 05:32:36 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:37 the two chars before 157 (i.e. 9d) are 4c and 59, valid afaik 05:32:57 yeah, those are ascii 05:33:07 but before that is 08, or backspace 05:33:25 #x59 is still a single byte in utf-8. 05:34:32 I'm not sure if this could lead to the "Failure to synchronize" that beach mentioned, but maybe 05:35:28 radetsky: Your file isn't encoded in utf-8. 05:36:12 because...? 05:36:21 I mean, I'd believe it, but why? 05:36:51 radetsky: because #x59 #x9D cannot be part of an utf-8 encoded sequence 05:37:20 #x59 is a stand-alone byte, and #x9D can only be in the middle of a multibyte subsequence 05:37:47 oh, I see 05:37:48 I think 05:38:12 because the 9d would have to be preceeded by, say, c4? 05:38:59 right, ok 05:38:59 sorry, I'm paging back and forth between irc/firefox/hexdump/lisp 05:39:40 something with at least the high 2 bits set (so >= #xC0). 05:40:01 well, the file said it was utf-8, and lisp decided it was utf-8 without me having to tell it, so I just assumed that it was 05:40:09 ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-138-56-198.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 05:40:27 radetsky: SBCL doesn 05:40:27 there you go 05:40:35 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:40:38 t try to do anything magic. If your locale says utf-8, that's what it'll use. 05:40:50 If you know better, you have to specify the encoding yourself. 05:41:53 gotcha 05:41:56 thanks 05:43:50 -!- algowuz [n=silence@2.2.8.b.0.7.4.0.1.0.0.2.ip6.arpa] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:44:07 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:44:23 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:44:44 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:47:21 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 05:47:21 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:49:45 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:01 -!- ivanst [i=ivans@93-136-5-167.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:02:42 benny [n=benny@i577A0EC4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:05:09 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:09:22 -!- O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-114-187.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:11:07 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-114-187.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:13:45 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:14:02 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has joined #lisp 06:15:18 jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:27 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:50 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.211.58] has left #lisp 06:26:36 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:28:27 O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-114-187.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:31:25 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:31:43 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:33:11 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 06:34:19 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:34:27 -!- BillXu [n=user@58.31.70.116] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:36:39 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-114-187.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:43:09 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:11 -!- LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:48:51 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:40 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:52:29 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 06:54:12 good morning 06:59:05 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.247.157] has quit ["He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the aby] 07:02:12 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:04 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:22 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:08:00 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:08:54 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:09:47 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 07:11:50 -!- O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-114-187.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 07:13:01 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:28 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@152.pool85-54-94.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:17:19 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 07:18:14 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-0c-f6-20-8c-57.k102.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 07:18:29 er... just a question. Which one is preferred to use in loading scripts, *load-pathname* or *load-truename* 07:19:01 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:19:25 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:19:55 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 07:21:10 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:43 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.252.109] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:20 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:25:07 Jarv2 [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:26:00 -!- Jarvellis [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:26:12 -!- Jarv2 is now known as Jarvellis 07:26:19 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:49 bew [n=chatzill@82-35-250-119.cable.ubr04.dals.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:46:43 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:36 -!- bew [n=chatzill@82-35-250-119.cable.ubr04.dals.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.8/2007100816]"] 08:00:49 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 08:02:33 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.78] has joined #lisp 08:05:17 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:07:22 morning. 08:08:02 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 08:08:41 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:08:59 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 08:09:18 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.222.104] has quit [] 08:12:43 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 08:14:44 merlincorey [n=merlin@ip65-46-14-94.z14-46-65.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:28 -!- lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:22:52 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:23:13 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:26:15 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 08:26:24 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:36 -!- radetsky [n=dan@adsl-76-212-0-94.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:32:13 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:33:17 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:37:31 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:37:43 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 08:43:33 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:46:59 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:47:06 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 08:47:58 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #lisp 08:55:16 lnostdal@cl-net:~/programming/lisp$ w 08:55:16 08:55:05 up 18 days, 22:11, 7 users, load average: 54.10, 54.50, 51.43 08:55:20 something's up ... 08:55:45 got a _ton_ of viewcvs processes about 08:56:34 ikes. 08:57:10 supposedly there was a dos against cl-net a few days ago involving that, looks like a repeat 08:57:52 noclouds [n=mhfan@61.190.36.114] has joined #lisp 09:00:54 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:01:43 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-186.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:02:54 ah, that is why someone chmodded viewcvs to 0 09:03:01 *H4ns1* investigates some 09:03:18 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 09:04:38 what's the difference between 'fdefinition' and 'function'? 09:04:53 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.249.11] has joined #lisp 09:05:51 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-30-173.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 09:05:53 ExtremeDevilz [n=Staff@unaffiliated/extremedevilz] has joined #lisp 09:06:00 = \ 09:06:02 Guyz 09:06:18 may i know world most simple programming lang 09:07:02 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:07:05 ExtremeDevilz: common lisp, which is what this channel is about, is not it. 09:07:10 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 09:07:21 ExtremeDevilz: aka "you are in the wrong channel" 09:07:32 mega1 [n=mega@pool-02f88.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:07:35 humm 09:07:55 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 09:08:10 well does can lisp work with sql ? 09:08:24 ExtremeDevilz: yes. but it is not simple. 09:08:34 meaning ? 09:09:02 ExtremeDevilz: see cl-rdbms, cl-perec (an ORM mapper), elephant, clsql 09:09:11 what is that ? 09:09:14 ExtremeDevilz: meaning that it is not simple. using common lisp and sql requires programming skills that are easier to aqcuire using a simpler programming language. 09:09:33 well i want learn the most simple programming lang 09:09:39 ExtremeDevilz: wrong channel. 09:09:44 which can interact with sockets,mysql 09:10:03 ExtremeDevilz: abacus is simple. everything else is not. 09:10:21 H4ns, are you allowed to run apps on c-l.net? (how much? what kind?) 09:10:32 abacus programming lang ? 09:10:59 tic: you are not allowed to use it for commercial applications. non-commercial, community oriented stuff is ok. if in doubt, inquire by email. 09:11:34 *ExtremeDevilz* want try code a program in simplest lang 09:11:54 ExtremeDevilz: no, abacus the tool for calculating. 09:12:04 -!- noclouds [n=mhfan@61.190.36.114] has quit [Client Quit] 09:12:14 noclouds [n=mhfan@61.190.36.114] has joined #lisp 09:12:15 so lisp most simplest programming lang ? 09:12:49 ExtremeDevilz: you were given the answer to that question already. 09:13:08 sorry. 09:13:33 ExtremeDevilz: if you are chasing that question, then it means you should avoid programming altogether 09:13:46 =/ 09:13:49 okok sorry. 09:13:56 i just wanted to know 09:14:48 good morning everyone 09:15:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-108.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:15:36 huangjs: fdefinition seems to be setf-able while function isn't, it seems to me that fdefinition is similar to symbol-function... 09:16:15 locklace: it is, but it can handle function names such as (setf car). 09:17:09 O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-186.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:17:26 hello spi 09:17:27 hello spiaggia 09:17:53 hey mvilleneuve, what's up? 09:18:01 spiaggia: ah hah 09:18:48 H4ns, was thinking along the lines of running a Lisp for hobby hacking when I'm not by my usual computer. I take it that's OK. 09:19:07 tic: think so. 09:20:36 spiaggia: not much, no change on the job situation, and the other project is progressing slowly... 09:20:39 O_4__ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-186.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:20:41 spiaggia: how about yourself? 09:21:51 mvilleneuve: Same old. Preparing my new course take a lot of time. 09:21:58 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-006-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:22:15 kami- [n=user@p4FD38605.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:22:18 spiaggia: what are those about? 09:22:24 good morning 09:22:26 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 09:22:52 anybody here who is using pyffi? 09:23:12 mvilleneuve: Software Project Management. 09:23:36 guyz 09:23:53 where can i get a program to compiled lisp and a programmin tut thanks in advance 09:24:23 I once had it working. But now it says "The value #() is not of type SB-SYS:SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER." upon the first call to a python function. 09:24:24 minion: tell ExtremeDevilz about pcl 09:24:26 ExtremeDevilz: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 09:25:02 how about program to compiled code ? 09:25:38 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-137-205.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:52 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:26:21 ExtremeDevilz: there is about it in that book 09:26:21 hello lispers 09:26:58 i will try learn much about this lisp 09:27:39 ;) most i am interested is coding a program in lisp 09:27:48 like sniffer = / 09:28:02 like what wireshack does 09:29:05 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-186.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:29:22 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:29:58 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.192.100] has joined #lisp 09:32:20 ExtremeDevilz: I suggest you go off and read that book for a while and come back when you have something interesting to say. 09:32:28 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp124.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:32:55 spiaggia: are you doing UP/RUP with a dash of other agile? 09:33:14 -!- ExtremeDevilz [n=Staff@unaffiliated/extremedevilz] has left #lisp 09:33:35 that seems to be the unofficial standard for similar US courses. 09:33:36 Adamant: Agile methods are part of it. For historical reasons I am doing mostly XP. 09:33:50 ah 09:33:58 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:34:03 honestly I'd rather do XP than UP/RUP 09:34:12 I'd rather just hack. ;) 09:34:22 tic: for when you can't hack 09:34:30 and must document 09:34:36 and plan 09:34:43 because they pay you to do so 09:35:56 good thing I'm not paid for that, then. 09:36:09 (XP is the lesser evil, though) 09:36:17 tic: it is. you get more useful things done in the end 09:36:52 in general, "software engineering" isn't. 09:37:31 Adamant, the problem is to draw the line between too little and too much meta-coding. 09:38:03 An experienced programmer needs less meta-coding of the hand-holding type. 09:38:14 thus enforcing it on him/her is counterproductive. 09:38:47 _mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 09:38:50 I tend to make formal models of my programs. Equations and state-space diagrams. 09:38:58 Other people hate working with me. 09:39:08 *mooglenorph* shrugs 09:39:29 tic: I'd rather just use pseudocode for metacoding and vary the "in-depthness" level of it 09:39:30 myself 09:40:16 other people tell me you need pretty pictures instead, so pretty pictures it is 09:40:53 tic: that's not entirely true. such activities often serve purposes beyond "just getting the code done", like communication 09:41:18 -!- O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-186.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:36 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 09:41:36 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-0c-f6-20-8c-57.k102.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:41:45 locklace, indeed. programmers who can't read an API spec probably need that. (bit extreme, but the point is that one can easily do too much unnecessary work) 09:42:17 tic: usually, your argument is given to make too little work 09:42:32 tic: it is very seldom to find overdocumented software, in particular in the lisp context. 09:42:50 it's obviously true that "analysis paralysis" is a danger, and you were dead-on about drawing the line. but especially in larger environments / more complex projects, the "non-coding" activities may take on extreme importance 09:43:05 H4ns, yeah, I'm off-topic: this was about the software industry at large. 09:43:41 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:43:56 locklace, yes. still, many think it's always required even if it's not. 09:44:15 brandelune [n=JC@pl157.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:44:34 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:44:35 Hm, less off-topic #lisp, more coding! 09:44:45 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 09:44:49 if you have to communicate the essentials of your sw to dozens of other teams, you'd better be well prepared to do a lot of clear design/documentation work to support any code that you produce 09:44:51 minion: chant 09:44:51 MORE CODING 09:45:01 yes. 09:46:26 c|mell [n=cmell@p4148-ipbf3203marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:49:07 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:50:18 lispm [n=joswig@e177155153.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:52:04 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 09:52:51 -!- b4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:53:17 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 09:58:09 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 09:59:27 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:03:45 distributing work over a grid of computers: should I send a hashtable with keys being the ID of each input variable to each node? then send back a hashtable with keys -> the function return values? 10:04:29 Is there an easier way to be tolerant of possible failures in computing specific values so as to not have to repeat the whole computation if say one node fails? 10:07:01 maybe you could get some inspiration from MapReduce? 10:07:50 I think that's how mapreduce does it, actually 10:07:58 lemme check 10:09:13 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:13:02 Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:15:04 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:16:46 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:18:19 schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:19:49 tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:22:34 DeeperHarder [i=DeeperHa@gateway/tor/x-4fdb4a1213b371b2] has joined #lisp 10:22:40 t [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 10:23:08 / \ \ / \ 10:23:10 | | \ | | 10:23:12 | `. | | : 10:23:22 ` | | \| | 10:23:22 \ | / / \\\ --__ \\ : 10:23:22 \ \/ _--~~ ~--__| \ | 10:23:22 \ \_-~ ~-_\ | 10:23:24 \_ \ _.--------.______\| | 10:23:26 \ \______// _ ___ _ (_(__> \ | 10:23:28 \ . C ___) ______ (_(____> | / 10:23:30 /\ | C ____)/ \ (_____> |_/ 10:23:32 / /\| C_____) | (___> / \ 10:23:34 | ( _C_____)\______/ // _/ / \ 10:23:36 | \ |__ \\_________// (__/ | 10:23:38 | \ \____) `---- --' | 10:23:40 | \_ ___\ /_ _/ | 10:23:42 | / | | \ | 10:23:44 | | / \ \ | 10:23:50 -!- DeeperHarder [i=DeeperHa@gateway/tor/x-4fdb4a1213b371b2] has quit [Killed by t ()] 10:24:28 anonymity + audience = total dickwad. 10:24:46 a multiline autokick could help against these 10:25:11 *attila_lendvai* needs to relogin 10:25:14 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 10:25:53 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:26:49 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:26:53 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2FA1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:06 attila_lendvai: things are not annoying enough yet to warrant technical solutions to a social problem (: 10:27:48 yeah, that's true 10:28:00 hmm, at least the proper trolls can be entertaining 10:28:01 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:28:01 but we are technical staff, or what? :) 10:28:11 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:28:29 rsynnott, gavino? 10:28:33 which is why we must be ever so much more careful 10:28:33 rsynnott, xah_lee? 10:28:37 yes! 10:29:08 gavino, yes 10:29:15 xah_less, not so much 10:29:18 *lee 10:29:41 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.249.11] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:29:41 (he's more of a classic Archimedes Plutonium-type troll) 10:30:16 -!- O_4__ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-86-186.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:30 Isn't xah actually good at maths? Or something? 10:30:44 he thinks he is. 10:30:47 it's possible 10:31:12 (okay, maybe more like the guy who wanted to crash the moon into australia, then) 10:31:53 (apparently a very accomplished mathematician, well-respected professionally and so on; his one little quirk was that he thought the moon caused HIV) 10:32:01 haha 10:32:22 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 10:32:26 morning 10:32:41 Woah - a Series update? 10:33:09 DrTilt [n=browning@adsl-76-243-208-202.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:11 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.192.100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:33:42 to the rahulmobile! 10:33:55 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has left #lisp 10:35:23 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:36:25 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.134.228] has joined #lisp 10:36:25 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:38:37 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:49 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:23 -!- echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:44:19 cky [n=cky@202-74-219-83.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:46:28 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.206.66] has joined #lisp 10:51:57 just in time for the world series 10:53:06 Now even longer, I see. 10:53:17 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:07:32 I'd endorse a plan to crash the moon into Australia. 11:09:25 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 11:10:41 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 11:14:52 In CLOS, we know what happens to existing instances of a class when the class is modified, but what happens to instances of a Java class when a modified version of the class is loaded (which apparently is possible)? 11:16:14 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:37 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:18:39 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:19:07 spiaggia: huh. I would have expected it to not be possible, except by using a different classloader (whose effects are similar to loading the code in a different package) 11:19:24 (or unintern+redefine, considering a single symbol) 11:19:50 kpreid: right, the trick is to use a different class loader. So they are essentially two differnet classes then, right? 11:20:08 yes, just as foo:box and bar:box are different classes 11:20:14 kpreid: thanks! 11:20:21 the names are often seen unqualified, but all class names are actually qualified by classloader 11:20:29 got it! 11:20:35 disclaimer: I have not actually read the specs :-) 11:20:51 kpreid: I'll try to remember that. :) 11:23:26 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:23:42 <_8david> yeah, that's the answer regarding classloaders, and doesn't involve "redefinition" at all. 11:23:57 <_8david> I first thought that you're actually referring to the redefinition features some VMs have for debugging purposes. 11:24:16 <_8david> for that, the javadoc says: "The redefinition may change method bodies, the constant pool and attributes. The redefinition must not add, remove or rename fields or methods, change the signatures of methods, or change inheritance. These restrictions maybe be lifted in future versions." 11:26:58 _8david: Beautiful! Thanks! 11:27:26 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:27:52 ths_ [n=ths@p549ACDB0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:45 sleven [n=user@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 11:31:16 -!- ths [n=ths@X55d9.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:23 what was that program that helps me download lisp-stuff? i want to set up a complete common lisp env with sbcl+slime+hunchentoot 11:32:56 asdf-install? 11:33:01 the other 11:33:04 i think 11:33:10 clbuild? 11:33:10 @cliki 11:33:13 yes 11:33:18 can i apt-get that? 11:33:21 minion: clbuild 11:33:22 clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 11:33:53 <_8david> sleven: you can apt-get hunchentoot and slime 11:33:57 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-91-155.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:34:14 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-45-204.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 11:34:20 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-45-204.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:34:22 <_8david> clbuild is the *alternative* when you don't want to use debian for that 11:34:41 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:35:21 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:35:29 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:38:06 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 11:38:51 but i just want to setup sbcl+hunchentoot+slime, what is the easiest way? 11:40:11 ;) 11:41:47 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 11:43:41 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 11:44:06 -!- tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:45:35 sleven, asdf-install works just fine for hunchentoot 11:46:06 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:46:42 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092414]"] 11:48:08 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-121-234.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:49:48 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:52:58 echo^ [i=echo@85.17.156.249] has joined #lisp 11:53:11 -!- echo^ [i=echo@85.17.156.249] has left #lisp 11:54:57 and how do i get asdf-install? 11:56:40 you probably already have it. 11:56:50 I can see this turning into a mess (: 11:57:08 I recommend getting clbuild, will save you lots of headache later. 11:57:59 i recommend trying asdf-install first 11:58:07 but i dont even get how to get it there is not a clear friggin downloadlink 11:58:18 what lisp do you use ? 11:58:32 <_8david> it can't be *that* hard to follow the instructions on http://www.cliki.net/ASDF-Install, can it? 11:59:21 *antifuchs* facepalms, goes off to hide under a rock 11:59:39 (there are installation directions on the clbuild site; no download link because it's all in darcs) 12:00:02 sleven: the great thing about package installation advice is that you have so many mutually contradictory options to choose from 12:00:35 timor101 [n=icke@w0843.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 12:00:40 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:01:32 *cmm* wishes for some sort of trust network for evaluating package installation advice :) 12:01:43 <_8david> see, that's why I don't recommend clbuild to newbies. In the end they'll discover it anyway, but they get to figure out their newbie issues with the help of the asdf-install guys first. :-) 12:01:44 haha 12:01:48 or any other unpaif advice, for that matter 12:02:50 and when they discover it, they will also discover that they need to have 709823598231 different revision control systems set up in order to use it 12:03:25 i cant fucking find the darcs repos yet 12:03:37 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:03:55 what a horribly designed page, looks 97, and has links everywhere but no "downalod the fucking progrsm here" link 12:04:21 you might want to watch your fucking language if you want people to fucking help you 12:04:24 97 ftw 12:06:44 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:07:25 sleven: "Download and Usage" on http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/? 12:07:40 or were you looking at the cliki page? /-: 12:07:50 <_8david> "looks 97" makes me think he's actually still talking about the asdf-install page 12:07:56 ah, heh 12:08:08 <_8david> or perhaps I'm too confident of my CSS skills :-) 12:09:19 hi lispers .. i'm working on a server-app. here .. i provide a sbcl-dump, and a config.lisp file to a user with some sane defaults in it .. when this user changes something in config.lisp -- what's a good way to trigger a call to cl:load on this changed file from the "outside" (linux shell...)..? 12:09:39 i'll probably figure something out .. just stuck for a bit on this 12:09:51 _8david: what would help is anchors for direct links to the download instructions 12:11:16 ..i guess i could have a "reload config" button in the UI .. but maybe that's a bit tedious 12:11:20 common-lisp.net now has greylistd in addition to spamassassin, please let us know if you still have spam problems. 12:11:25 thanks so now i have clbuild 12:11:32 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:12:58 <_8david> antifuchs: these days I can never tell anymore whether you're serious or not 12:13:10 _8david: erm, that was serious 12:14:01 <_8david> okay. "vi index.html" is your friend! 12:14:02 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:14:08 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9D35.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:14:23 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9DD7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:14:26 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 12:14:47 thanks H4ns .. i don't think i've seen a server @ 50, 50, 50++ load before :) 12:14:47 ah. forgot. I have write access (: 12:14:59 dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has joined #lisp 12:15:11 lnostdal: not sure if that was a spam problem, though :) 12:16:36 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 12:20:16 -!- sleven [n=user@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:20:59 tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:25:18 sleven [n=user@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 12:25:28 so i have clbuild and sbcl now 12:26:05 canf in package hunchentoot with apt-get 12:26:17 ./clbuild hunchentoot 12:26:17 invalid command hunchentoot, try --help for help 12:26:21 with clbuild 12:26:43 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 12:27:02 enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:38 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 12:28:11 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 12:28:56 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:29:48 hyperspace189 [n=hyperspa@216.16.236.2] has joined #lisp 12:30:38 sleven: what does --help suggest to you? 12:33:39 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:16 not much of use 12:34:26 ./clbuild slime laucnhes emacs, not slime 12:34:36 and i dont get how to install hunchentoot 12:35:29 sleven: i don't know much about clbuild, but slime is a program for emacs. 12:35:49 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.5] has joined #lisp 12:36:11 and apt-get cl-hunchentoot works 12:36:30 no it doesn't 12:36:39 yes it does 12:36:47 just hunchentoot doesnt 12:36:48 sleven: I guess that depends on what "works" means to you. 12:36:53 afaik apt-get requires a command like "install" 12:37:05 yes ofc i didnt write all 12:37:09 wow, maybe cl-build would also require a command! 12:37:10 i mean it needec cl- 12:37:23 *Xach* wonders if younder moved to sweden 12:37:29 maybe that's what "invalid command, try --help" means! 12:37:50 now how do i run hucnhentoot? 12:38:44 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:39:00 sleven: read documentation, experiment, read more documentation, experiment more 12:39:12 sleven: but please do so without monopolizing this channel. thank you. 12:39:49 It's much more rewarding to help someone who exhibits some possibility of progress. 12:40:12 im a professor of computer science at stanford fuckface 12:40:23 i'm not familiar with stanford fuckface university 12:40:36 i don't think it's accredited. 12:40:39 go away. 12:40:45 it is a highschool in sweden 12:41:12 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 12:41:15 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*n=user@*.bredband.skanova.com 12:41:19 -!- Xach [n=xach@207.5.178.18] has been kicked from #lisp 12:41:42 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 12:41:51 :D 12:42:44 *cmm* looks forward to the impending blog/reddit shitstorm 12:42:57 stanford professors don't blog 12:43:09 -!- dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:43:11 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:43:21 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 12:43:26 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 12:43:30 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 12:43:37 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 12:45:29 -!- defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-802ea3466ad792ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:45:32 defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-acd467a0f0483933] has joined #lisp 12:48:39 *H4ns* is impressed by the huge number of emails that are rejected thanks to greylistd 12:50:33 with a bit more optimisation you could probably get it to reject all of them 12:51:00 locklace: are you volunteering 12:51:04 ? 12:51:23 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:51:58 -!- meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:51:59 sure, for a modest fee i'll be pleased to produce an email system for you that rejects all messages 12:52:29 locklace: i am talking about common-lisp.net, which is a not-for-profit community service. none of us is being paid. 12:52:56 H4ns: locklace is making a joke 12:53:06 Xach: ah, oh. 12:53:12 there is a fine line between good spam filtering and just turning off email 12:53:17 locklace: "haha". sorry for that! 12:53:44 Xach: in the end, successful spam filtering is a time consuming task. 12:53:56 fraught with peril 12:54:17 Xach: in particular because users usually show little or no tolerance to any failures in the email system. not a nice job. 12:56:07 Hey Xach. 12:56:34 morning gigamonkey 12:57:22 You grok SVG, no? 12:57:31 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 12:57:37 Is there any easy way to compute the bounding box of a PATH? 12:58:25 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:42 A minimal bounding box is hard. A bounding box is easy; it's just a rectangle that includes the max and min coordinate across all points in the path. 12:59:29 bezier curves are always contained in the polygon formed by their control points. 12:59:36 The latter is what I came up with. But I was worried that the curvy element ("C" et al.) could go out of the bounds ... 12:59:52 Ah. Then I don't need to worry. 12:59:59 nope, that's a handy property of bezier curves (mentioned in many an introduction to them :) 13:00:15 I'm not sure of the line width though 13:00:16 *gigamonkey* don't read no stinkin' introductions 13:00:43 for the bounding box I mean 13:00:43 So how could the minimal bounding box be any smaller? 13:00:57 gigamonkey: rotated :) 13:00:58 kiuma: wouldn't it be at the most line-width +/- the extrema? 13:01:19 antifuchs, should be 1/2 13:01:34 well, that's where your minimal bounding box comes in (-: 13:01:36 gigamonkey: by touching the curve 13:01:53 gigamonkey: the outline formed by the control points need not do that. 13:02:13 Xach: ah. 13:02:36 And I guess depending on the shape of the curve thet difference could be significant. 13:02:42 s/thet/the/ 13:04:34 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:04:54 i don't know much about svg, though. 13:05:27 Whoa. nikodemus-mail in triplicate! 13:06:25 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:06:51 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp91-122-107-84.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 13:07:01 chandler: i thought the problem was fixed, until today's clones 13:07:32 I have pasted some into the sf.net bug report, with headers 13:07:40 seems they have no clue what is going on. 13:07:50 Xach: well you know more than me. thanks. 13:07:58 is there a library for executing shell commands and catching their output? 13:08:16 trivial-shell 13:08:29 (their mail server closes the connection before giving a status reply, causing the originating server to think that delivery failed). then sf.net delivers the mail and gladly accepts a retry, until the originating server finds an sf.net MX that isn't broken 13:08:39 knobo [n=bohmersp@148.122.202.168] has joined #lisp 13:11:07 gigamonkey, I only think it's not trivial when managing spirals, take a look at what inkscape does 13:11:10 thanks gigamonkey 13:11:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:12:23 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 13:14:47 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:16:23 neurogeek_ [n=neurogee@201.208.73.206] has joined #lisp 13:16:42 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:17:13 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 13:17:58 -!- timor101 [n=icke@w0843.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:42 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc60.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:20:45 -!- noclouds [n=mhfan@61.190.36.114] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:22:18 stentroad [n=chatzill@201.80.228.175] has joined #lisp 13:22:22 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-178.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:22:29 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:23:21 For SBCL, how do I find the valid values for OPEN's :external-format keyword parameter 13:24:28 icylisper [n=icylispe@202.88.189.5] has joined #lisp 13:25:40 <_3b> (mapcar 'car SB-IMPL::*EXTERNAL-FORMATS*) i think 13:25:54 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl9-100-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 13:26:27 Well, knowing that the valid values are in sb-impl::*external-formats* is a great start. Thanks. 13:27:47 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 13:28:00 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 13:30:55 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 13:32:41 kiuma: spirals aren't svg primitives. 13:32:53 ghost77 [n=the7thgh@c8u.is.edu.ro] has joined #lisp 13:33:50 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:33:57 timor101 [n=icke@w0457.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 13:34:16 matley [n=matley@83.225.157.175] has joined #lisp 13:34:50 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1C9E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:04 mr_ank_ [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:35:07 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1DBA7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:45 Xach, yes I know they hare handled as complex path 13:35:50 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:37:18 Hmm, Firefox crashed my X server again. Please, give me CLXS!! 13:37:31 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:37:42 kiuma: they are trivial, because curves are trivial. 13:38:39 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:47 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 13:38:53 spiaggia: just need CL accelerated video drivers :p 13:40:33 yes, I am looking forward to the day when my X locks up and I can flip to the console and get a backtrace for NIL is not of type REAL :-) 13:41:03 asdf-powered X? 13:43:02 Shirley that's NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD for ASDF:OPERATE called with arguments (# #) 13:43:16 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl9-100-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:44:16 anyone here has experience using the lispbuilder-sdl stuff? 13:44:36 *_3b* has used it 13:44:57 <_3b> not much beyond setting up an opengl window and loading textures though 13:44:58 I could use the aa drawing in lispbuilder-sdl-gfx, but the documentation states it doesn't work on mac osx 13:45:07 lispbuilder-sdl works fine though 13:45:16 oh how I wish I could represent code as something else than *strings*. 13:45:21 so close 13:45:22 *tic* complains about Blub 13:47:34 -!- mr_ank [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:02 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.157.175] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:48:29 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:48:38 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:48:44 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:51:04 <_3b> hmm, don't know about macos stuff :/ 13:51:16 <_3b> how badly does it break if you try to load it? 13:55:26 chandler: one would hope it'd have slightly better error-handling than that :) 14:00:19 cracki [n=cracki@43-016.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:01:04 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 14:01:06 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:09 why isn't lisp a blub, anyways? I never quite got that argument. 14:04:13 dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has joined #lisp 14:04:25 because lisp is the greatest and best of all possible languages 14:04:32 qed. 14:04:41 except for arc 14:05:52 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 14:09:27 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@30.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:09:47 -!- stentroad [n=chatzill@201.80.228.175] has left #lisp 14:09:58 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:10:48 brill [n=brill@193.3.8.1] has joined #lisp 14:11:13 clhs mapcan 14:11:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 14:11:21 -!- dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:14:08 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 14:18:59 -!- merlincorey [n=merlin@ip65-46-14-94.z14-46-65.customer.algx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:19:16 which slime contrib makes M-p work again? 14:21:41 What's M-p ? 14:21:48 -!- hyperspace189 [n=hyperspa@216.16.236.2] has left #lisp 14:21:53 jumps to definition 14:21:55 very handy 14:22:03 That sounds totally handy. 14:22:22 It's completely not what it does. 14:22:23 uh, I meant in the repl buffer. 14:22:27 -!- r00k [n=ben@216.93.247.56] has left #lisp 14:22:28 M-. jumps to a definition. 14:22:37 Oh ya M-. is great. 14:22:46 I see in the slime changelog that the behavior of M-p/M-n has been a contentious point. 14:22:48 M-p seems to just do oddities :) 14:22:52 oh, was thinking of p as in point 14:22:58 because brain is broken today 14:23:03 M-p is for history 14:23:12 slime-repl-previous-input ? 14:23:19 Oh THAT 14:23:19 kreuter: mine says it is defined in slime.el, i don't know if i used any special contrib for it. 14:23:24 I use that all the time. 14:23:24 plus some sort of regex-y filtering 14:23:25 heh. 14:23:49 I blame my confusion on rsynnott's brain being broken today ;) 14:23:53 once upon a time, it used to find an entry in the command history that matched something you'd typed at the repl prompt. 14:24:01 kreuter: that's what mine does. 14:24:05 kreuter: still does that for me 14:24:05 kreuter: That's what it does now :) 14:24:09 :( 14:24:13 And it's the wonderful! 14:24:26 kreuter: i have loaded only slime-editing-commands, slime-autodoc, and slime-fancy-inspector 14:24:29 I must have gebustet my slime. 14:24:33 kreuter: if i had to guess, i'd say slime-editing-commands 14:24:40 but it doesn't seem likely 14:25:18 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:26:07 kreuter: try binding M-p to slime-repl-previous-matching-input instead of slime-repl-previous-input 14:26:14 -!- brill [n=brill@193.3.8.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:27:04 Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:28:21 -!- xreyes_ [n=xreyes@175.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:54 xreyes_ [n=xreyes@175.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:35 -!- jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:32:05 madsj [n=s062126@hald.gbar.dtu.dk] has joined #lisp 14:32:17 is stepping through slime supposed to be working for sbcl at the moment? 14:32:21 lol, Matzacred Lisp :D 14:32:44 I seem to remember it working at one point, but I end up stepping through slime internals when I try it now 14:36:42 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 14:37:48 stepping in slime never worked for me. not in the manner I'd make any sense of, anyway. but I've never tried very hard 14:38:20 tomsw [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 14:38:25 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:38:33 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 14:39:00 aha! PURI is screwing me over with bogus latin-1 assumptions! 14:39:22 *Xach* wouldn't describe what he feels exactly as happiness, but he feels *something* about finding the bug 14:41:15 Xach: that also bit me once, then i started patching puri, but finally i rolled my own... (it's in the wui repo) 14:41:42 You will be screwed over if you use URIs as anything but strings with no internal structure, Xach. 14:42:18 can you even suppose that they're strings, as opposed to octet junk? 14:42:23 *attila_lendvai* has no problem using structured uris (around http) 14:42:42 They are strings of a subset of characters in US-ASCII. 14:42:54 ok 14:43:12 <_8david> Xach: fork PURI into PIRI, a unicode-aware library using IRIs 14:44:02 There are no intrinsic technical impediments to interpreting strings matching the RFC 3986 grammar as structured objects, but if you try to do that in any sensible way, you will wind up unable to interact with certain insensible agents, often written primarily in Perl regexps. 14:44:06 tomsw pasted "Recursive "comm"" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69341 14:44:10 PIRI - It's Hot! (TM) 14:44:45 And don't even think about trying to use URIs as a structure for containing HTML form data. 14:45:37 I'm trying to create something similar to the *nix "comm" command, ie given two lists it returns items unique to the first list, unique to the second list, and common to both. My first attempt was recursive and blows up with a stack overflow 14:46:36 prxq [n=mommer@BAAef6a.baa.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:45 hi 14:46:53 hello prxq 14:47:09 hi fe[nl]ix 14:47:13 In my case, PURI is eagerly converting non-ASCII hexadecimal %xx stuff into latin-1 characters. 14:47:20 If it left them alone, I'd be all set. 14:48:16 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:41 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:51:18 tomsw: you mean like (lambda (a b) (values (set-difference a b) (set-difference b a) (intersection a b))) ? 14:51:19 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:51:59 tomsw annotated #69341 with "correction..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69341#1 14:52:37 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 14:52:46 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-35.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:52:57 -!- Guest26197 [n=user@72.14.228.89] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:53:01 locklace: with the difference that the intersection returns both matching items, not just one 14:53:40 -!- cracki [n=cracki@43-016.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Success] 14:54:58 lisp [n=t@intergruas.easynet.es] has joined #lisp 14:55:05 -!- lisp is now known as pjb 14:55:22 tomsw: how about (defun comm (l1 l2) (list (set-difference l1 l2) (set-difference l2 l1) (union l1 l2))) 14:56:14 oh, sorry locklace missed yours. 14:56:20 And yeah, INTERSECTION not UNION. 14:56:56 tomsw: ok, i feel confident you can adapt the above the cover that ;) 14:56:58 gigamonkey: also, the lists in question are big, 10k items each. Using 3 set functions is going to be more expensive than rolling my own (once I can get it to work) 14:57:22 I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out a format formula... I need something along the lines of: (format nil "Displayed-thing1 ~a~:[.~;, displayed-thing2 ~a.~]" thing1 (when thing2 (something-in thing2))) 14:57:52 the worst-case scenario is that no items match, meaning I have (length list1) * (length list2) comparisons 14:58:01 sykopomp: i think it's really hard to help starting from a partial, non-working format string. better to state the output you want and the variables involved, i think. 14:58:20 <_8david> if you're worried about efficiency, note that comm(1) expect sorted files, resulting in a simpler algorithm. Is that actually part of your problem statement? 14:58:31 tomsw: are you assuming the lists are sorted? 14:59:03 _8david: the lists aren't sorted 14:59:18 Xach: output desired: (or "Displayed-thing1 I AM DISPLAYED." "Displayed-thing1 I AM DISPLAYED, displayed-thing2 I AM ALSO DISPLAYED.") 14:59:36 based on whether thing2 exists, or is nil 15:00:12 I have an iterative solution, it's just horrible. 15:00:16 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 15:00:46 actually... I think this format string works...(format nil "Displayed-thing1 ~a~@[, displayed-thing2 ~a~]." 15:00:46 thing1 (when thing2 (something-in thing2))) 15:02:17 -!- icylisper [n=icylispe@202.88.189.5] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:37 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:04:03 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.206.66] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 15:04:23 tomsw pasted "Imperative comm function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69342 15:05:20 brown [n=user@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 15:05:57 -!- brown is now known as Guest64181 15:06:59 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:09 -!- ghost77 [n=the7thgh@c8u.is.edu.ro] has quit [] 15:09:11 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:00 gigamonkey annotated #69341 with "How about this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69341#2 15:10:57 That assumes your test parameter can be limited to the same set that hash tables support. 15:12:10 sykopomp: it's ok, but you need to go back one argument: (format nil "Displayed-thing1 ~a~:[.~;, displayed-thing2 ~:*~a.~]" thing1 (when thing2 (something-in thing2))) 15:14:11 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:39 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:18:46 -!- pjb [n=t@intergruas.easynet.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:19:38 icylisper [n=icylispe@202.88.189.5] has joined #lisp 15:19:45 kreuter: how'd the meeting go? 15:21:26 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:21:27 rpg [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has joined #lisp 15:22:01 gigamonkey: I can't assume anything about the test function; also, (comm '(1 2 3) '(1 1 2 3)) should return (nil (1) (1 2 3)) because the second list has an extra 1 15:23:05 what I was really wondering about is why the recursive version isn't tail recursive 15:23:46 blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.12] has joined #lisp 15:24:12 Xach: meetingerrific! 15:24:50 mycket bra 15:24:52 it was sorta interesting. I would've liked a bit more detail on the interpreter. 15:25:46 tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 15:26:47 tomsw: does that iterative version actually work? 15:27:50 Xach, heja dig! 15:29:42 merlincorey [n=merlin@ip65-46-14-94.z14-46-65.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:04 -!- keram [n=oof@unaffiliated/keram] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:34:25 gigamonkey: yes. I just realised I could use a hash table to stored the key values, because the hash key would be a pointer to a list cell, not its contents. 15:36:24 gigamonkey: I don't much like having to act on the cdr of every list instead of the head, but I don't know any other way of removing items 15:37:35 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:05 cpc26 [n=cpc26@66.162.199.9] has joined #lisp 15:39:18 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@66.162.199.9] has quit [Client Quit] 15:41:00 h4ns: are you open for compiling darcs2 on cl.net? i can send you a detailed script of what needs to be installed... darcs2 repos can't be used without having a darcs2 executable on the server. 15:42:16 tomsw: your comment about why you think you can use a hash table doesn't make any sense to me. 15:42:59 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:49 attila_lendvai: zes, although i'd prefer installing a debian package 15:43:53 <_8david> oh dear, in incompatible darcs 2 is upon us? 15:43:57 <_8david> I'm already looking forward to the "I've got darcs but can't download attilaware" questions on clbuild-devel :-) 15:44:15 gigamonkey: maybe I'm babbling. Let me check :) 15:47:42 gigamonkey: (let ((l (list "big" "list" "of" "strings"))) ... you can use l, (cdr l), (cddr l) etc. as the keys of a hash 15:48:01 Yeah, but what does that get you? 15:48:21 Unless your two lists share structure they won't have any keys in common. 15:48:39 l = ("big" "list" "of" "strings"), (cdr l) = ("list" "of" "strings"), (cddr l) = ("of" "strings"). Is that really useful? 15:48:59 Unless you use an #'EQUAL hash table in which case you'll be doing tons of list walking. 15:51:21 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-56-25.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 15:52:28 h4ns: sent you some details in a mail. but it's not urgent... 15:53:14 mogunus` [n=user@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 15:53:17 Hello all. 15:53:55 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-145-181.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:15 hello nyef 15:54:24 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:54:26 Anything interesting happening? 15:54:55 gigamonkey: every item of my two lists has a corresponding key value, which I want to avoid recalculating, since this could potentially be very expensive. I was doing this by keeping two key lists in step with the real lists, but then realised I could use a hash instead 15:55:24 attila_lendvai: i installed the dependencies 15:55:33 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:55:44 H4ns: oh, great! i'll try to compile it then 15:57:01 ejs [n=eugen@139-193-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:05 Is there anyone about who's involved with the series project? 15:57:07 isn't there dacrs-2 in debian? 15:57:14 So... this is a string of foolish questions. I think it would be really cool to write some small lispy language for the hardware of an embedded processor (probably intel PXA27) 15:57:52 I've heard things about forth being useful for that. I could totally write forth in PXA270 asm. Where would I go from there? Are there any books about this sort of thing? 15:58:43 mogunus`: do you want to write a lisp or use a lisp? 15:59:02 H4ns: oops, a note: i (alendvai) had several symlinks in my home on cl.net and they were flattened (their target was copied insted of the links). no big deal, but may have caused problems at other places. at the same time lmeszaros also had links and they are intact... hm, strange. 15:59:18 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 15:59:25 H4ns: ideally, I want to write a lisp that can be used. failing that, I'd like to write a lisp for instructional purposes, and then use one to do "serious" development. 15:59:26 mogunus`: if you want to use one, you could port, say, OpenLisp, or maybe spidermonkey if you consider javascript being an acceptable lisp. 15:59:34 http://hedgehog.oliotalo.fi/ 15:59:40 hedgehog lisp 15:59:54 attila_lendvai: hum. poke drewc about that, please :) 16:00:13 Or just run linux and clisp on that there pxa270. 16:00:21 "Hedgehog is a very concise implementation of a Lisp-like language for low-end and embedded devices." 16:00:44 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:15 schme: that would of course be the sane solution. But I want to experiment with a very small lisp-ish OS. 16:01:34 mogunus`: I see you have been browsing my TODO notes! 16:01:35 :) 16:01:40 mogunus`: Can I interest you in hacking on SBCL-os instead? 16:01:55 also looks like this runs CLISP: http://gbbopen.org/images/Pasta.jpg 16:02:06 How near is SBCL-os to running on ARM? 16:02:15 schme: ... Not. 16:02:17 nyef: as SBCL is my favorite lisp implementation, definately. 16:02:19 (I couldn't even compile SBCL on it) 16:02:51 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:03:28 there isn't an ARM backend, is there? 16:03:35 nyef: although I am a painfully bad lisp coder and don't understand SBCL/lisp compilers at all. That's what I'm going to be attempting to do with this. I have a gumstix hanging around from an old robotics project in linux/C, and figured, hey, why not? 16:03:43 Didn't seem so when I tried to build it. 16:03:57 schme: that would be an obstacle. 16:04:02 Ya. 16:04:09 It was ;) 16:04:16 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 16:04:22 *nyef* looks at the bare beginnings of an ARM port he started last december. 16:04:26 my copy of lisp in small pieces is in the mail, though. 16:04:41 mogunus`: You could just grab the pdf until it arrives ;) 16:04:51 there's a pdf? 16:05:12 Well not a legal one. 16:05:22 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:05:43 hmm. the binary on sbcl.org do not work on tiger (new refs in libSystem on leopard i guess). compiling 1.0.21 do not either with clisp at least. are there other options? 16:05:46 -!- robot_jesus [n=csanders@hoovers-241.hoovers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:05:51 Ah, I thought you meant amazon's lame "give us $10 more for the pdf of the book you're going to get in the mail in like two days" 16:06:05 Hmm dunno about amazon. 16:06:12 schme: wheretoget? 16:06:39 hypno: install via MacPorts? 16:07:10 e271: would that port be up to date and with threads? 16:07:13 Hrm... Looks like I left off after fixing up the basic register model and before putting in the instruction definitions. 16:07:34 tomsw: you're just confusing me. 16:07:50 nyef: how should I start hacking on SBCL-os? 16:07:52 hypno: the portfile has a variant +threads, and doesn't look like it special-cases Tiger. 16:08:04 mogunus`: Well, SBCL-os is x86-only, so it might not help for what you want to do. 16:08:10 But MacPorts aren't always so well regression tested back to 10.4 16:08:27 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:08:36 hello i implemented 5 popular sorting algorithms in lisp: http://pastebin.ca/1238727, i'd like someone to read through the code, and comment on improvements i could possibly make etc 16:08:41 *e271* doesn't have a 10.4 machine handy to test. 16:09:16 nyef: ah, drat. Well, if my embedded experiments go well, I'd certainly be willing to have a go at messing with standalone SBCL on my desktop. 16:09:33 plutonas: what was your goal when implementing them? 16:09:52 plutonas, any particular reason for using names such as "lst"? 16:09:53 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:10:06 Xach: i am writting a tutorial on some popular sorting algorithms 16:10:15 tic: paul graham uses it and i like it 16:10:22 is it not good style? 16:10:25 hypno: grab an older release and use that to build the current one. or build with ccl or cmucl 16:10:26 plutonas, you do know "list" is a perfectly fine name? 16:10:31 plutonas: paul graham did not have common lisp in mind when he wrote it. 16:10:40 plutonas, no, it is not. Paul Graham's Lisp style is very much non-idiomatic. 16:10:42 plutonas: I think the general consensus is that anything PG does is bad style ;) 16:10:48 gigamonkey annotated #69341 with "Another try" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69341#3 16:10:49 plutonas: (apply #'min lst) isn't very good, it's better to use (reduce #'min list) 16:11:00 hey schme 16:11:06 tayssir` [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:11:08 plutonas: lists will be pretty slow. 16:11:21 plutonas, (if (null lst) nil (insert ...)) isn't very good. try: (unless list (insert...)) 16:11:21 tomsw: that seems to me to the be the essence of the algorithm you described given that you're not assuming the input lists are sorted. 16:11:24 stassats`: thanks 16:11:25 quicksort with lists is just criminal 16:11:34 josemanuel [n=josemanu@133.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:11:38 Xach: doesn't matter for my purpose 16:11:42 It has the obvious problem that all the calls to MEMBER are going to kill you on long lists. 16:11:51 tic: thanks too 16:11:58 -!- tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:12:04 pjb [n=t@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:16 Thus the hash table version, but if you really want to treat the lists as bags not sets then you need to be more clever with how you use hash tables. 16:12:18 plutonas, Practical Common Lisp or _Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence_ will teach you good Common Lisp style. 16:12:36 *nyef* hands tic a "Programming". 16:12:37 have read practical common lisp once 16:12:42 actually was the first book i read 16:12:48 (regarding lisp) 16:12:52 nyef, thanks! 16:13:23 (concatenate 'string * "Programming") 16:13:44 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.129.249] has joined #lisp 16:14:46 plutonas: Heh. I just interview Brad Fitzpatrick the other day. He says his mother claims he was reading the Apple II Programming Manual at the same age he was reading Clifford the Big Red Dog. 16:15:22 tic are you sure that (if (null lst) nil (else blah blah)) is equivallent to (unless lst (else blah blah))? 16:15:24 gigamonkey: lol 16:15:39 when i was reading Clifford, you hadn't written practical cl yet 16:15:47 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:59 but even you had, i wasn't interested in programming back then anyways :) 16:16:09 clhs unless 16:16:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_when_.htm 16:16:27 as beach said earlier today, use the most specific construct when possible. 16:16:36 -!- mogunus` [n=user@173.9.7.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:16:40 (except for SETQ ;) 16:16:41 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.12] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:16:42 (macroexpand '(unless lst (else blah blah))) 16:16:56 mogunus_ [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 16:16:59 Though some old-school Lipers for some reason eschew using WHEN and UNLESS for value. 16:17:08 plutonas: To the compiler, it is. There's a semantic difference to a programmer, but that should matter only if the value is actually used. 16:17:30 i'm just objecting because i get a different result 16:17:32 gigamonkey: sorry, all the crap about key was for a more advanced version of the function that accepts a :key parameter 16:17:36 except for setq? 16:17:42 don't have setq's 16:17:49 plutonas: yep, you need WHEN, not UNLESS 16:17:54 tic: except for setq? 16:18:01 hm, true 16:18:03 yvdriess, it's more specific, but considered uglier. only works for symbols, whereas SETF works for any place. 16:18:08 yvdriess: Any use of setq is considered poor style. 16:18:12 Use SETF. 16:18:28 plutonas, different result indeed? 16:18:40 tic: using when it's the same 16:18:42 okay right, but why is it ugly to use setq for symbols instead of setf 16:18:54 of course, expanding unless shows clearly they're not equivalent. 16:18:56 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 16:19:04 yvdriess: because you always want to use SETF for assignment. 16:19:19 plutonas, (if foo nil 'bar) <=> (unless foo 'bar) 16:19:40 For the same reason you use (setf (car list) 'x) rather than (rplaca list x) 16:19:41 tic: but it was (if (null foo) ..) 16:19:48 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:20:06 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:18 stassats`, my bad. (unless (null foo) 'bar), then. 16:20:32 but shouldn't (null foo) be the same as foo as a boolean? 16:20:37 (when foo 'bar) 16:20:44 okay but that's a different interface, much like (map list ...) and (mapc ...) 16:20:46 I.e. historically there were a bunch of low-level assignment functions/special operators but SETF sweeps themm all under the rug and they should stay there. 16:21:23 *tic* takes this as a sign he should get home from work, brain function low. 16:21:43 nikodemus: gotcha. thanks. 16:21:50 is there is a nice style doc/faq somewhere? 16:21:59 yvdriess: I'm not sure I get your analogy there. 16:22:05 okay so setf/setq is an exception on the rule of generality because setq doesn't really have a reason to exist anymore 16:22:08 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:22:20 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 16:22:31 tic: they are the same as a boolean i think 16:22:38 locklace: there is http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps 16:22:38 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:23:39 I don't want to troll, I was just wondering why setq was an exception on the style rule :) 16:23:39 no sorry opposite, lol 16:23:44 yvdriess: I think there are two rules. 1. Use the most specific construct available. 2. Use the most general construct available. 16:23:45 plutonas: (null lst) == (not lst) ; lst == (not (null lst)) 16:23:55 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:23:58 You use SETF because of rule 2. You use WHEN and UNLESS because of rule 1. 16:24:10 yvdriess: for back-compatibility. 16:24:17 Maybe the rule is use the most specific general construct available? 16:24:17 Rule 3. Choose wisely when applying rules 1 and 2. 16:24:24 hehe 16:24:41 blitz_ [n=blitz@w0373.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:44 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go"] 16:28:20 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 16:30:36 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:31:46 -!- mogunus_ [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["leaving"] 16:34:23 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 16:34:35 ths_ [n=ths@p549AF7BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:29 -!- ths [n=ths@p549ACDB0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:39:36 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:15 which rule relates to the use of the scarier FORMAT features? 16:40:43 run screaming 16:41:05 That would be Rule ~5,',,,V:@ 16:41:22 nikodemus any chance of commiting my sb-bsd-sockets patch ? 16:41:28 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a Llama again!"] 16:42:02 xristos: it doesn't seem likely this close to the release (i can't speak for nikodemus, though) 16:42:19 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:42:49 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.196.118] has joined #lisp 16:42:51 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:45:11 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 16:47:10 is with-slots frowned upon? 16:47:36 or is it preferred to 4-5 (bla-foo x) (bla-bar x) (bla-stuff x) calls 16:47:44 <_3b> with-accessors would probably be preferred 16:47:51 <_8david> yvdriess: it's neither frowned upon nor preferred 16:47:59 ah there's a with-accessors 16:48:29 I really should go claim back lisp the second edition :P 16:48:40 _3b: it's a shame that with-accessors always needs both a name and accessor, even when they're the same 16:48:44 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:49:22 tomsw: write your own with-accessors* 16:51:30 -!- Triqon [n=henri@hrk.yok.utu.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:52:45 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:55 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 16:54:19 Xach: on planet.lisp, is there a reason that the links from your name go directly to planet.lisp? 16:54:39 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 16:54:46 Xof: if there is a reason, i don't think it is a good one. I'll check it out. 16:54:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:55:38 I think it is because of a livejournal failure some time ago, and a glitch in the planet lisp software in the face of such glitches. 16:57:44 complex page-rank-y scam, perhaps? :) 16:58:12 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:58:40 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.196.118] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:58:45 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:59:12 disumu [n=disumu@p57A24642.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:14 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 16:59:56 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 17:02:17 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:05:08 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:05:21 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:06:25 merde 17:06:28 lispbuilder-sdl blocks 17:06:41 and my sbcl is a unithread build 17:07:00 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:07:06 no repl for me 17:07:42 heheh: http://purevirtual.com/~anthony/jigsaw-puzzle/index.html 17:07:51 lisp download sticker shock 17:07:59 (it uses the lispbuilder thing) 17:08:54 a .exe on my mac?! :) 17:09:11 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9D35.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:09:22 intel mac 17:09:23 ? 17:09:32 if so, you can build sbcl with threads 17:09:42 yeah 17:09:46 <_3b> yvdriess: try calling (sb-sys:serve-all-events 0) in your main loop 17:09:51 is the m 17:09:56 nm 17:10:02 better get the svn version 17:10:22 -!- tayssir` [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:10:31 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 17:10:54 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.129.249] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:10:54 hey that works :) 17:11:00 thanks 17:11:06 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:11:29 what're you doing with sdl, actually? :) 17:11:44 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:08 just screwing around a bit, trying to show a simple graph with a few editing functionality 17:12:12 then build a small game on it 17:13:00 keeping a hobby project going in your spare time is hard when you're already lucky enough to be able to use lisp at work :) 17:13:40 -!- neurogeek_ [n=neurogee@201.208.73.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:46 FareWell [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:47 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:52 code/data separation patch on sbcl-devel! intrepid testers and benchmarkers with non-io-bound applications wanted! 17:14:12 *Xach* waits eagerly to see it 17:14:16 *rsynnott* is very IO-bound :( 17:14:19 nikodemus`, what's that do? 17:14:21 bloody webapps 17:14:28 -!- pjb [n=t@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:35 milanj [n=milan@77.46.187.188] has joined #lisp 17:14:44 code objects on separate pages 17:14:45 -!- beach` is now known as beach 17:15:04 Good evening. 17:15:05 does that matter on anything but the p4? 17:15:07 so that we don't outside GC write to pages containing code 17:15:23 i see an average of 5% speedup so far 17:15:28 cool! 17:15:30 on Core Duo 17:16:06 of course, since i timed on the same laptop i'm working, irc'ing, etc on my numbers are a bit suspect... 17:16:17 but the trend seems relatively stable 17:16:53 in principle it should be beneficial, if only because it should reduce cache-annoying 17:17:15 interesting 17:18:05 jsnell: does the P4 actually have separate code and data caches, or something? 17:18:07 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 17:18:17 (I know very old chips did, but thought it had died out) 17:18:22 there's the so called trace cache 17:18:39 which basically contains a decoded instruction stream 17:18:40 rsynnott: the P4's IL1 had predecoded uops. Still, most L1s are split these days. 17:19:01 and which will be thrown out if there's a write within the same 1k block (iirc) 17:19:47 kami-` [n=user@p4FD38605.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:20:13 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:20:17 -!- fdr- [n=fdr@76-191-209-5.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:19 i think CLOS code will benefit the most, since various generated-at-runtime-dispatch-bits-and-pieces are the likeliest ones to end up on pages with data that is being mutated 17:21:41 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc60.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 17:23:04 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:23:06 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.13.228] has joined #lisp 17:23:12 Xof: ISTR you taught a class with squeak earlier? Do you somrt sort of (publically available) report on the experience? We (undergrad. association) are trying to build a position for the new Intro to Prog. courses, and it sounded like it could be useful. 17:23:20 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:23:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:25:41 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:11 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:36 we have not taught undergrads Squeak 17:27:46 I kind of want to, but things move glacially here 17:28:03 lukego came and gave an introduction to the staff 17:29:56 doh. Things are pretty sluggish on our end too; I think the project to update the first year courses has been going for 3 years and isn't expected to result in any change for at least 2 more. 17:30:09 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.241.149] has joined #lisp 17:30:17 ouch 17:32:08 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:21 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:32:53 pkhuong: It is my experience that if you expect the colleagues to come up with a decent proposal as committee work, you will be disappointed. The thing to do is to come up with a complete and coherent proposal yourself and then wait for reactions. 17:34:02 pkhuong: It is also my experience that colleagues are then delighted that someone was willing to do all that job. The objections to the proposal are usually minor, just so that they feel they had some say in the process. 17:34:03 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177155153.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:34:41 pkhuong: I can't guarantee that my observations generalize to other places though. 17:35:10 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:35:42 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD38605.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:35:44 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 17:36:22 *FareWell* mentions the notion of "design by committee"... 17:36:32 beach: that's what we're trying to do. But then we're only students, and the profs on the committee have very good reasons to prefer one language (python for the machine learning people because that's what they use everywhere, scheme in the parallelism/languages lab). 17:36:42 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 17:37:19 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:42 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:38:33 pkhuong, the TeachScheme! (ReachJava) guys have developed pretty good curricula over the years. 17:39:14 pkhuong: Well, things get harder if you are just designing a single course. The thing to do is to design a coherent undergraduate program. 17:40:43 pkhuong: But yeah, I have been in your position and some professors find it hard to admit that some students sometimes know better. 17:41:25 not to mention doctors. *grumble* 17:41:30 it's not about knowing better, just trying to avoid some of the problems we see on the ground, as TAs or simply when talking to people who take the courses. 17:41:58 tic: As in medical doctors? They are the worst! 17:42:14 pkhuong: I see. 17:42:44 pkhuong: What are some of the problems? And how are you suggesting they be solved? 17:43:38 beach, that's the ones. People tend to place figures of authority on piedestals, though. 17:43:45 *tic* prepares dinner 17:44:10 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 17:44:11 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:38 pkhuong: When I did my PhD, I suggested teaching a Lisp course (including lectures) rather than doing my usual TA stuff. My suggestion was accepted, and I am fairly happy with the result. 17:46:44 The end result of the current first year seems to be that: Students who come in minimally knowing how to code don't really improve (or become set in their ways) and lose motivation, most students who don't already know how to code pass and only very rarely become good enough at it that we wouldn't be scared of working with them, and we are completely unable to bring people to *think* as i believe is needed to be able to program unles 17:47:17 cut off at "program unles" 17:47:39 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:23 Hear hear. Most of my fellow students at school don't even /want/ to program (yes, I've asked), and it is after-all a MS.Sc in CompSci & Eng. 17:48:53 ... unable to bring people to think as I believe is needed to be able to program unless they already did from the start. 17:49:27 pkhuong: And what is your suggestion for improving the situation? 17:50:06 pkhuong: when it comes to CS most people are not in it for the same reasons as us hobby dabblers are. i bet most of us in here lives and swears by the computer, the network, the os and the programming language. such deep commitment can simply not be expected - hence you have a ton of people who are merely after learning what's hyped so they can get a job. 17:50:31 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:50:44 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 17:51:12 hypno, indeed. that was very obvious directly after the "IT crash". 17:51:17 hypno: I am still interested in his suggestions for making things better. 17:51:36 We're going to feed them brain juice! 17:51:43 -!- aking [n=aking@207.210.78.49] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:51:46 aking [n=aking@207.210.78.49] has joined #lisp 17:51:57 Mmm - fresh brain juice! 17:52:07 There are some people who want to go with ~half of SICP for the first course and something else than scheme for the second (OO, some sw eng. notions, etc). I'm afraid that'd turn the first course purpose's from making sure everyone is at a level to filtering everyone who isn't :\ 17:52:24 the current thinking here is definitely to use visual/audio/creative motivation for motivating the desire to program 17:52:59 but our intake and ethos are far from typical, except inasmuch as it is largely "unable to program or think" 17:53:16 Xof: I think we need some sort of more immediate flashy feedback. Printing text on a console was nice 20 years ago. Not so much today. 17:53:58 beach: making things better? surely, the world does not /need/ any more computer people. we need less, if anything. it's simply wrong to cater to the needs of the ignorants anywa. i also think this is somewhat already established in other disciplines: in egnineering physics you are simply expected to be interrested and have done your homework prior to start. 17:53:59 *Xach* got in it for the flashy feedback 17:54:41 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:44 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:54:48 I think we agree there. Our intro class is still doing number parsing and addition 17:54:52 i.e. a Pascal course 17:55:00 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns 17:55:26 not the constanza one /-: 17:55:38 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 17:55:46 hypno: I suspect you have been out of the loop too long, but it is interesting too see your opinion. For what it's worth, I have pretty much no clue what to do, probably because I can't even define the problem very well. 17:56:56 I also think the problems might be quite different in different universities and especially in different parts of the world. 17:56:57 Xof, "we" do Haskell followed by Java. 17:57:28 I think the problem is largely the magic threshold you have to pass. Some people simply don't, and by then it's too late. 17:57:31 It sometimes seems to me that comp.sci. education is as if 'medical education' was trying to turn out all the people that work in a hospital, from surgeons to nurses to administrators to janitors... 17:57:34 Dijkstra once said that "the teaching of BASIC should be rated as a criminal offence: it mutilates the mind beyond recovery". On the contrary, I think you'd find that those who taught themselves BASIC on the Apple II or contemporaries are by far better programmers today than those who learned through a university CS curriculum. 17:57:48 schasi [n=schasi@p54A2639C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:05 tic: I suspect we have a much more utilitarian view of university here. If we started with haskell, people would switch to one of the n engineering schools after 1 semester. 17:58:28 chandler: those who taught themselves basic on a computer would succeed whatever the didactic method 17:58:30 beach: as for course curriculum: downplay programming languages and put way more energy into theoretical CS: type theory, a lot of discreete math and solid engineering practice. /no more/ more java. no more MS. no more commerically sponsored bullshit just to cater to the needs of an industry who has long ago gone wrong. i think dijkstra had a lot of good points too. 17:58:46 it is those who did not teach themseves basic that pkhuong and I are trying to care about, I think 17:59:06 and I think Dijkstra is correct that teaching those who cannot teach themselves BASIC is suboptimal 17:59:07 hypno: what country are you in? 17:59:11 pkhuong, I have no opinion, but it could be. Hard to say. 17:59:14 Hmmm.. I think I made postmodern do something odd. (query (:select * from 'nut_data)) and now nothing is happening. 17:59:19 I wonder if I made it lock up. 17:59:22 *tic* high-fives the .se:s! 17:59:25 beach: sweden, why? 17:59:33 Let's invade #lisp. 17:59:36 hypno: just checking 17:59:58 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:00:03 Hoh. 18:00:07 schme, i thought one needed to do '* 18:00:24 lnostdal: That is possible. Either way it seems stuck. 18:00:28 How do I break this stuckness? 18:00:30 beach: i think my take on the issue is extremly anti-swedish^socialistic tho. ;) 18:00:41 Xof: I have seen people who would have been capable of teaching themselves how to program go through a first-year CS curriculum without having learned much if anything. 18:00:54 Perhaps trying to teach programming is itself the problem. 18:00:58 My goal as a TA with those who already taught themselves was simply to make sure they didn't lose interest and to see if there was anything obvious (awful indentation, copy/paste, etc) I could push them to improve in the meantime (and more algorithmic/puzzle tasks as bonuses) 18:01:00 hypno, it's hard to make people /not/ go to school if they want to. 18:01:06 Hmm.. 18:01:07 schme, C-c C-c C-c ..etc. might work if you did it from the REPL-thread 18:01:15 lnostdal: Does not work, no. 18:01:49 Actually, I have a lot to say about engineers getting involved in teaching programming and software "engineering", but I will keep my opinions to myself. That said, I am trained as an engineer, and I have nothing against engineers per se. 18:01:54 tic: at least in sweden it certainly is so, yes. :) 18:02:02 If they're not worse off after the first year, it's already pretty good. 18:02:08 I guess I have to kill sbcl 18:02:14 Messed up. 18:02:25 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.37.7] has joined #lisp 18:02:37 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-02f88.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:02:45 schme: you can try going in *inferior-lisp* to kill the right thread(s). 18:03:05 Oh. 18:03:13 I already killed the sbcl process :) 18:03:16 I'll try that next time ;) 18:03:19 I only took a couple CS courses at my university, but it would have been nice if they could've acknowledged that there are alternatives C/C++. 18:03:37 It was a long time before I realized that there is more way to "do programming." 18:03:38 proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #lisp 18:03:43 -!- proq` is now known as proq 18:03:44 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:47 "more than one way" 18:04:37 pkhuong: Actually, (and to be a bit provocative), I would love to see excatly those people lose interest, because they are typically the "cowboy programmers" that won't finish the program anyway, and that I certainly wouldn't want to see in industry representing my teaching programs. 18:04:48 lnostdal: Seems '* does the same. 18:05:42 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:05:44 OH! 18:05:56 fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 32208(tid 3075533696): 18:05:57 Heap exhausted, game over. 18:05:59 that explains it :) 18:06:37 Well that's shit :S 18:06:57 beach: looking for pliable young minds, are you? ;) 18:06:58 beach, provocative indeed. Is "being able to program prior to formal education" the same as "not able to code well"? 18:07:14 (or rather, "not able to /learn/ how to code well") 18:09:51 pkhuong: sort of, yes. 18:09:56 my school taught us with OCaml. It was good. 18:10:16 On the other hand, we all had pretty much survived self-teaching Pascal. 18:10:21 beach: anyway, I'm trying to see how hard it would be to wrap an untyped language REPL around a graphic engine (probably 2d). A Bx-1 student has been helping me (especially the *portable* graphic part) since we decided it probably wouldn't fly (if only for political reasons) to try and do something like you. 18:10:25 so that doesn't mean much. 18:11:00 pkhuong, once again, the teachscheme guys do that -- pure functional 2d games using reactive programming in Scheme. 18:11:26 (by first year students) 18:11:29 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has left #lisp 18:11:48 FareWell: by untyped language, I mostly mean Python (...politics :). 18:12:09 pkhuong: I wish you good luck (and I mean that seriously), and again, I think the situtations are totally different in different countries, and they each require unique actions. 18:12:48 beach, not just different countries. Things are wildly different between u-bordeaux and ens.fr for instance. 18:13:04 FareWell: yes, of course. 18:13:33 *_3b* wonders if the starlogo tng teaching stuff is any good 18:13:36 Well it seems I need to get the 64bit linux running here. 18:13:54 FareWell: I wasn't going to bre #lisp with all the weirdness of French higher education. 18:13:58 *bore 18:13:59 I assume it will result in greater heap size. 18:14:17 I'd put quotes around "higher". 18:14:26 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["Changing server"] 18:15:03 FareWell: I think that's unfair. I have experience of higher education in four different "western" countries, and in our department, we have nothing to be ashamed of in comparison. 18:15:29 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:12 I don't think the failure is restricted to France, indeed. 18:16:22 FareWell: But then again, we are the French university ranked the highest in the Shanghai ranking (CS and engineering). 18:16:34 nice 18:16:37 Hmm, what would be the most straightforward way to build SBCL through clbuild using the SBCL previously built by clbuild itself? 18:17:09 any ecl hacker around? Are any of them on IRC? 18:17:17 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 18:17:30 cl-launch can't build asdf systems on ecl anymore :( 18:18:27 when I remember the pain of getting it working in the first place, I don't feel like doing it again. 18:18:28 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-07601ae947c5fb96] has joined #lisp 18:19:02 -!- pixel5 is now known as pixel65 18:19:48 When I fooled with ECL for ZS3 stuff, it Just Worked. 18:19:56 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 18:20:09 the maintainer also promptly committed a bugfix i sent on an unrelated issue 18:23:55 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 18:24:49 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:26:07 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 18:28:03 <_8david> luis: good question. Probably something like "mv target old; PATH=old/bin:$PATH ./clbuild compile-implementation sbcl". 18:28:09 <_8david> (No, that's not what I'd call "most straightforward".) 18:29:40 <_8david> OTOH, I don't actually build my SBCL using clbuild at all, and if I did, I'd use cmucl or ccl for bootstrapping, so what do I know... 18:30:40 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-56-25.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:31:23 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.37.7] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:32:47 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084213.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 18:33:09 -!- timor101 [n=icke@w0457.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:33:59 _8david: I forget where you live. 18:34:47 <_8david> beach: Not in Hamburg, if that's what you mean :-) 18:35:00 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:35:32 _8david: Right! I suggest you do what lispm and I both did, which is to encourage gilberth to show up tomorrow (I am assuming you are going). 18:35:58 appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:36:06 _8david: even though you are not going to be there I presume, then. 18:36:45 -!- pixel65 is now known as pixel5 18:36:52 _8david: er, sorry. I meant "I am assuming you are *not* going" 18:37:49 <_8david> I don't really know how to contact gilberth, unless he happens to pop in here on #lisp. :-) 18:38:15 _8david: Ah, I thought you had more contact than that. He often talks about you. 18:38:17 <_8david> Had the meeting been on a Friday, it would have been an option, but in the middle of the week isn't ideal for a trip to Hamburg. 18:38:44 nenorbot [n=Menas@87.69.67.210] has joined #lisp 18:38:46 _8david: How far are you? 18:39:11 ug [n=merlin@67.159.169.138] has joined #lisp 18:39:31 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@w0373.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:39:56 <_8david> Hamburg is less than two hours away from Berlin by train. 18:40:25 <_8david> ... unless deutsche bahn is grounding their entire ICE train fleet, which I'm told they are currently doing :-) 18:40:31 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:40:34 ouch! 18:41:17 _8david: they are? 18:42:07 <_8david> (or perhaps only the tilting ICE T version) 18:43:22 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:44:35 _8david: thanks, that worked, after setting SBCL_HOME appropriately. 18:45:05 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:47:05 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A24642.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:49:09 lispm [n=joswig@f054053160.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:07 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-30-173.kosnet.ru] has quit ["Light!"] 18:56:01 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:57 <_8david> segv_: are you currently in Berlin? We were planning to "hi-jack" the next erlang-berlin meeting. Not sure when yet, but sometime in November, I guess. 18:59:26 -!- Guest64181 [n=user@72.14.228.89] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:59:28 _8david: yeah, i'm in berlin. let me know when you do. 18:59:58 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:00:13 -!- ejs [n=eugen@139-193-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:00:40 Xach: I just updated SBCL and CFFI builds fine, did something change in SBCL in the meantime or am I doing something wrong? 19:01:08 I've got 1.0.21.35. 19:02:04 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-155-78.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:02:11 luis: nikodemus commented on the quality of the workaround currently in cffi 19:06:09 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:42 Ah, hadn't noticed that had gotten in. c-l.net lost a bunch of mail. 19:08:26 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 19:08:30 Jarv2 [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:08:43 i think it was in the gmane link from earlier 19:08:59 luis: that's ok, it was probably spam ;) 19:09:33 Yes, but I misread that and thought that was the workaround you came up with. 19:10:27 ah ok 19:11:32 -!- Jarvellis [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:12:02 -!- tomsw [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has left #lisp 19:12:09 -!- Jarv2 is now known as Jarvellis 19:15:49 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 19:16:45 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:00 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:52 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e5c4460b902c44fb] has joined #lisp 19:19:31 nikodemus`: aroundp 19:30:33 luis pasted "Xach: does this look saner?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69350 19:31:08 ahrg, I keep forgetting whether :EXECUTE is needed in that situation. 19:33:33 luis: i'm not sure...nikodemus would be the best person to ask, i think 19:36:12 -!- topito [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:37:03 *sigh* c.l.l just makes me tired when I try to look at it these day. I admire the people who are sticking it out. 19:37:20 tayssir [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 19:40:28 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:42:12 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:42:36 beach, anything in particular? 19:42:36 there's got to be a pony in there somewhere 19:42:41 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 19:42:45 or many a pony? 19:43:40 luis: Sure, :execute is needed; :load-toplevel isn't 19:44:40 tcr: why not? (I've read that table in CLtL2 about the various situations for EVAL-WHEN but I've forgotten all about it.) 19:44:43 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:45:20 Hmm, does anyone here have access to the paper at http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=63428 ? Is it freely redistributable? I'm not familiar with SIAM... 19:45:21 tic: Don't think so. The entire thing just makes me tired. It could be just me. 19:45:32 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:45:55 Xach: can't find a download link there. 19:46:23 luis: unload-shared-object-present-p is used at read time; this either happens at compilation time (with compile-file), or runtime (load, without previous compile-file) 19:46:49 luis: http://dx.doi.org/10.1137/0218006 has a link. download for $25. 19:46:54 luis: However, omitting :load-toplevel has the disadvantage that C-c C-c won't work anymore on %close-foreign-library. 19:47:08 So in general, just use the full line. 19:49:49 tcr: is it accurate to map :compile-toplevel, :load-toplevel and :execute to (compile-file ...), (load "foo.fasl") and (load "foo.lisp") respectively? 19:50:22 luis: That's my mental model, at least. 19:51:03 Strictly speaking, (load "foo.lisp") may be allowed to also do a fasl load, but I'm speaking without checking clhs. 19:51:50 My impression is that (load "foo") might but not (load "foo.lisp") but I'm being lazy as well. 19:51:58 is it possible to (declare (optimize ...)) globally for a file? 19:52:08 qebab: with declaim 19:52:09 the eval-when documentation seems clear enough to me. 19:52:16 clhs eval-when 19:52:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm 19:52:49 clhs declaim 19:52:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_declai.htm 19:52:51 thanks luis 19:52:54 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:54:30 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["."] 19:55:26 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:49 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-0c-f6-20-8c-57.k102.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 19:59:52 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e5c4460b902c44fb] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:00:29 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 20:01:32 chrisdon` [n=user@82-33-137-16.cable.ubr02.wiga.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:03:49 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF7BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:06:38 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:14 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-195.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:16 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:36 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 20:14:05 -!- chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:14:53 -!- chrisdon` is now known as chrisdone 20:14:55 I got a 2D array, and I want to provide an abstraction so that one can work on a section of that array as if it were an array (indexed from 0 0, etc). Performance is a factor. Because I come from C, I see how I could do that using pointers, but how could I do that in cl ? 20:15:28 By working I mean reading and writing 20:15:30 auclairb: displaced arrays might do what you need. 20:15:31 a displaced array. 20:16:03 -!- chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:16:32 I have looked at those but they seem to be mostly for 1D array, and wouldn't work for lets say a 4x4 sub array in the middle of a 16x16 array 20:16:39 chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 20:16:42 neither would C's pointers. 20:17:12 pkhuong, I could build an array of pointers pointing anywhere in my original array 20:17:23 wow, how inefficient. 20:17:35 if you come from C, then you know that the most efficient and fastest method of implementing multidimensional arrays is as single dimensional arrays with subscript multipliers 20:17:43 auclairb: if that's what you'd do in C, in Lisp you could make an array of indices into your original array. 20:18:18 gigamonkey: ah, true, that would work 20:19:15 ciscbrain [n=eugen@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 20:20:12 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:20:16 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:26 ths [n=ths@X55d9.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:40 -!- rpg is now known as rpg|away 20:21:48 -!- rpg|away [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has quit [] 20:23:55 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 20:25:09 -!- adeht is now known as _adeht 20:26:22 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:27:42 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3844C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:27:45 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:29:18 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A2639C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:30:37 sunkencity [n=joel@h222n6c1o1036.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:47 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 20:31:00 topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has joined #lisp 20:31:19 ecraven [n=nex@cm56-211-173.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 20:31:39 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:32:53 hm.. when I get an error in slime/emacs when running a function, how do I get the line number the error occured at? 20:33:08 or is this problematic because of macroexpansions? 20:33:14 (I'm using sbcl) 20:35:08 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 20:35:37 olejorgenb: you can try pressing v with your cursor on the right call-stack item 20:35:42 olejorgenb: you can use `v' on stack frames in the slime debugger 20:35:48 olejorgenb: in the SLDB buffer that (presumably) popped up with the error, find the interesting frame and press v 20:37:47 hm, I got "has no debug-block information but I guess" 20:37:53 jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:55 but it worked on a lower frame 20:38:28 could it be that I need to set some compiler options? 20:39:32 depends on your compiler. in sbcl, the defaults should be fine 20:40:20 olejorgenb: (debug 2) is a good choice 20:40:44 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:41:23 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:42:22 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:42 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD38605.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:13 (declare (optimize (debug 2))) ? 20:44:21 just starting up on the excercises in practical common lisp. running sbcl + slime. Isn't (format t "~10t~a" :foobar) supposed to emit 10 spaces before printing foobar? I get just one space. 20:44:29 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 20:45:07 Using ~1,5t gives me 5 spaces but 1,10 gives me 3 cannot parse what that comma means 20:46:36 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:47:23 tcr: (and others) thanks btw 20:47:54 olejorgenb: DECLAIM at the top of a file 20:49:14 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:49:26 ah, I just figured I could place the (declare ...) inside the function, but that's better 20:50:19 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 20:50:22 I have a package that uses cffi to wrap a library, any better way to export all symbols other that a long list of (:export ...) ? 20:50:27 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:52:39 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-91-155.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:56 (loop for s being the symbols of do (export s)) 20:53:05 something like that 20:53:50 cmm: ah nice, i didnt know we could do that 20:54:17 we have a special on hairy loop clauses today! 20:54:31 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:54:46 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:54:58 exporting all symbols is unlikely to be what you want. 20:55:38 (let ((foo ...)) ...) <-- makes a symbol. who says the users of this package want your FOO? 20:55:45 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:21 presumably the package is all machine-generated and never used for interaction? 20:56:37 yes its all cffi wrapper stuff 20:56:56 okay. I'm just sayin', is all. 20:56:58 i supposed using my package means you want to have access to all the function in the original library 20:57:32 using a package doesn't directly have to do with functionality, but only with names of things. 20:58:22 you don't even have to :USE it, if the package [nick]name is short and catchy enough 20:59:19 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-178.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 20:59:20 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Operation timed out] 20:59:37 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-84e595109da433bf] has joined #lisp 21:00:23 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0FF56.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:28 Hello all ... does anyone have an example of an asdf perform :after method specialized on a particular source file rather than a system? 21:04:29 Where does clbuild put its compiled version of sbcl? 21:04:41 find | grep 21:04:44 ;) 21:04:44 target/ I think 21:05:26 ghost77 [n=the7thgh@c8u.is.edu.ro] has joined #lisp 21:06:21 Draggor: what Krystof said 21:06:40 target/ is empty, oddly enough 21:06:54 Draggor: maybe you didn't in fact compile sbcl? 21:09:09 I installed 1.0.12 on my own a while back, then used clbuild to get 1.0.21 21:10:46 -!- prxq [n=mommer@BAAef6a.baa.pppool.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:10:59 Draggor: did you compile it through clbuild compile-implementation 21:14:28 luis: yeah 21:14:53 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:15:47 Draggor: no idea then. 21:16:04 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:24 *Draggor* gets it again 21:16:50 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 21:17:30 -!- ecraven [n=nex@cm56-211-173.liwest.at] has quit ["bbl"] 21:18:22 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 21:19:11 -!- kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3844C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:36 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E003.dip.t-dialin.net] has 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joined #lisp 21:40:41 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 21:40:41 kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:660:3003:8:0:0:4:68] has joined #lisp 21:41:06 antifuchs: well, you fixed sfnet, just in time for freenode to break :-) 21:41:13 defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-d0ac3b88aa9fd632] has joined #lisp 21:41:13 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 21:41:14 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:21 bwahaha 21:41:25 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 21:41:31 what tells you that this wasn't my work as well? (: 21:41:35 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:41:38 l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:41:39 guenther__ [n=guenther@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 21:41:40 -!- dialtone_ is now known as dialtone 21:41:46 pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 21:42:00 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:27 -!- eta-beta is now known as Guest60471 21:42:28 all you've *really* accomplished is to make sbcl-devel seem like a lower-traffic list :-) 21:42:35 right (: 21:43:00 <_3b> wonder if gmail was filtering out the duplicates or something, don't think i saw any 21:43:14 jollygood_______ [n=jolly@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 21:43:21 *cmm* feels safe behind gmane's broad duplicate-killing back 21:44:03 -!- Guest60471 [n=giovanni@net-93-146-167-166.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has left #lisp 21:44:07 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:53 milanj [n=milan@77.46.187.188] has joined #lisp 21:45:00 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:38 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279440976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:45:38 vasa [n=vasa@mm-156-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 21:45:40 -!- defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-d0ac3b88aa9fd632] has quit [Killed by reynolds.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 21:45:43 -!- joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Killed by reynolds.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 21:45:45 joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 21:45:47 defn_ [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-42fc70c071c06f11] has joined #lisp 21:45:49 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:49 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:45:49 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 21:45:49 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@30.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:45:49 defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-acd467a0f0483933] has joined #lisp 21:45:49 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:49 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 21:45:49 eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 21:45:49 Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 21:45:49 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:49 puddingpimp [n=puddingp@gateway.quickcircuit.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:45:49 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 21:45:57 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:45:57 BrianRice` [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:11 -!- Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 21:46:28 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 21:47:35 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Operation timed out] 21:49:09 a-s [n=user@92.80.109.191] has joined #lisp 21:51:49 -!- defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-acd467a0f0483933] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:52:52 rpg- [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:04 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:54:12 *FareWell* rewrites cl-launch into something that should work with the new ECL. 21:54:41 *FareWell* reduces cl-launch to the problem of compiling a program from just an asdf system. 21:55:16 FareWell: what's the "Well" for? are you perpetually leaving us? 21:55:26 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:55:56 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:56:12 -!- sunkencity [n=joel@h222n6c1o1036.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 21:56:31 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:00 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:57:09 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 21:57:23 kreuter: Hello. 21:57:29 howdy 21:57:49 kreuter, it's my backup name when "Fare" is taken 21:57:59 the backup backup name being "FareTower" 21:57:59 oh 21:58:04 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [No route to host] 21:58:13 someone else is using Fare 21:58:17 I missed the meeting last night. How'd it go? 21:58:24 I dug it. 21:58:27 FareWell: And you didn't register the nick? 21:58:28 it was rather good. 34 attendants. 21:59:21 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:26 Is there a recording of the presentation available, or slides or something? 21:59:27 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:59:30 suppose I have a file containing a list like (1 2 3 4), and I want to read that file and set a variable to a vector containing the same elements (in this case #(1 2 3 4)). Is there a better way to do this than (read (make-string-input-stream (concatenate 'string "#" (read-line stream)))) 21:59:45 radetsky: why, yes! 22:00:06 (coerce (read stream) 'vector), for example. 22:00:10 coerce might do it, make-array with :initial-contents might do it, etc. 22:00:19 -!- FareWell is now known as Fare 22:00:24 I did! 22:00:25 ok, let me try 22:00:51 no recording. Slides you may ask from the author. 22:00:51 abend [n=sasha@sub26-151.member.dsl-only.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:19 tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:19 yep, thanks! 22:02:18 What was the basic idea? 22:03:07 (a) Connection Machines were nifty, (b) targeting an intepreter makes debugging a compiler more pleasant. 22:03:41 oh, and (c) Lisp makes writing interpreters convenient. 22:03:54 ok, now what if the file just contains the line "1 2 3 4", and I want to set some variable to the list (1 2 3 4), or the vector #(1 2 3 4), or something along those lines? 22:03:59 -!- tayssir [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:04:11 Ah, so an alternate backend that hits an interpreter that can then be used to validate test vectors? 22:04:55 radetsky: At this point we ask how much flexibility you have in controlling the input format and how much work you want to do in parsing. 22:05:13 nyef: he was talking only about validating register allocation and instruction scheduling, but yeah, basically. 22:05:51 no control over the input format 22:05:54 or maybe some 22:06:05 but lets say none 22:06:14 radetsky: parse-integer is handy 22:06:27 oh, food time is now. 22:06:28 I'm aware of parse-integer 22:06:30 later, #lisp 22:06:35 kreuter: Enjoy. 22:06:50 radetsky: that's probably what i'd use. 22:06:53 And thanks for the quick overview of what I missed. 22:07:09 timor101 [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:07:18 what I'm saying is, I could in the use-case in question, do (read (make-s-i-s (concatenate 'string "#(" (read-line stream) ")"))) and it would get the job done 22:07:18 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.187.188] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:07:39 but I'm wondering if there's a better way I would know about if I was an EXPERT LISP PROGRAMMER!!1!ONE 22:08:13 slightly OT: to any newbie, lurking and otherwise, bookpool.com is running a 50% discount on Apress books till the end of October, meaning PCL could be yours for cheap*. *it's currently out of stock, I would hope they would let you purchase it at the discount price but I give no guarantees. 22:08:17 Really depends on your definition of "better". 22:08:42 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 22:09:13 nyef: I take that to mean "There's nothing better to the same extent that the 'coerce' example was better" 22:09:22 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.173.0] has joined #lisp 22:09:26 At a certain point, depending on what you're trying to accomplish and who's going to be looking at the code and so on, going with a quick hack like that may well be the right thing. 22:09:56 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-239.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:10:15 right, but I'm trying to learn the language, which means that I have to explore non-quick-hacks 22:10:23 I suspect that many of us would write something that would validate the input for some well-formedness constraints, etc. 22:10:28 but I think I see where this is going 22:11:10 the input is well-formed, in this case 22:11:45 <_3b> (loop for i = (read stream nil nil) while i collect i)? 22:11:45 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:11:52 -!- rpg- is now known as rpg 22:12:12 <_3b> (assuming no nil or () in input) 22:12:47 valid assumption 22:13:46 although I think I'm going to go with the hack 22:13:51 clhs make-concatenated-stream 22:13:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_con.htm 22:13:53 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:13:58 this is probably slightly preferable to your hack 22:14:28 (read (make-concatenated-stream (make-string-input-stream "(") original-stream (make-string-input-stream ")"))) -> (1 2 3 4) 22:14:29 chandler: slime-hyperspec-lookup-ing 22:15:00 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:15:07 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:33 my CLIM 'presentation' for tomorrows Lisp meeting is ready 22:16:49 there is also a McCLIM recruiting slide 22:17:18 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:22 chandler: interesting 22:18:00 but what if there are 10 lines containing sequences of numbers, and I want to use your code per-line 22:18:40 is there a better option than looping with read-line and make-s-i-s-ing the line I read, passing it to your code, etc? 22:18:53 not really 22:19:07 awesome, thanks everyone 22:19:19 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:20:18 appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:21:24 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-84e595109da433bf] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:21:26 -!- tsuru` [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:25:14 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:21 you folks keep referring to these meetings. What/where are they? 22:26:09 radetsky: Boston 22:26:31 where lisp goes to book plane tickets 22:30:21 is it a university thing or a company thing or a user-group thing or what? 22:32:10 a Faré-thing 22:32:40 it's part of the big conspiracy. sccshh. 22:35:34 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl9-100-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:35:41 as in Rideau? 22:36:47 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:37:17 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [] 22:39:18 radetsky: yes 22:39:20 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:22 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:56 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:42:26 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 22:49:15 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:08 howdy, I have something that does ":depends (#+sbcl :timer)" but I don't see the "TIMER" module or package anywhere 22:50:36 the code has timer:enable-timer, but the timer functions in sb-ext don't have enable-timer 22:50:45 philed [n=phil@92-235-187-136.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:50:47 is this some old function that's removed from sbcl? 22:50:58 I'm running 1.0.12 and 1.0.20, fwiw 22:52:23 i'm trying to run cl-muproc btw 22:53:22 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 22:53:33 fusss: timer is a libary i wrote. 22:53:41 oh 22:53:47 i can has? 22:54:05 http://www.cliki.net/TIMER 22:54:26 asdf-install ftw 22:54:38 What is this, talk-like-an-idiot night? 22:54:55 *Xach* checks calendar for September 19th 22:54:58 olicz [i=1000@r3r149.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 22:55:02 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:55:07 no dice radetsky, i hack from home and i removed the interweb from there. 22:55:27 Xach: I'm not sure if you're aware, but september will never end 22:55:35 every night is talk-like-an-idiot night 22:56:17 there really should be an IRC to smtp gatway 22:56:42 fusss: I think TIMER has a bug that was fixed when gabor melis integrated some of its functionality into sbcl 22:56:52 fusss: i don't remember the details, though, and TIMER is no longer maintained 22:57:09 gotta tell cl-muproc people i guess 22:58:20 mr_ank [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:00:13 Hum. Is there a way to convince ecl to give me a full backtrace when it fails? 23:01:38 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:03:00 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 23:04:03 win32 sbcl, are the FFIs working? :-) 23:05:31 yes! :-P 23:05:41 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl9-100-107.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:20 H4ns1: herep 23:06:28 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-156-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 23:10:23 -!- philed [n=phil@92-235-187-136.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has left #lisp 23:10:37 -!- mr_ank_ [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:10:44 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-15-177.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:11:03 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@133.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:12:49 are the Elephant people around here? i owe them a love letter ^_^ 23:13:02 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:53 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:14:03 well, speaking of persistence stuff. If the persistence db I'm using doesn't support serializing functions, how would I convert functions into something that could be chucked into the hdd? :P 23:16:17 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:16:20 is there someway to teach asdf to search for nested packages? 23:16:32 Hey Xach, since you enjoy silly web tricks and it was the reason for my SVG questions earlier, check out my latest toy: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/election/election.xul (you'll need Firefox 3 and a screen at least as big as my PB 15") 23:16:57 That's also not totally off topic as the backend is Lisp. 23:17:06 ie, i do not wanna continue on with this PUSHing stuff onto asdf:*central-registry* all the time, only to use another verbose line with asdf. 23:19:03 hypno: nested packages ? 23:19:29 hypno: Does sysdef-subdir-search (find on http://www.cliki.net/asdf) do what you want? 23:19:44 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:19:48 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 23:20:08 fe[nl]ix: i usually use /usr/local/lisp/ for lisp packages. i wanna be able to do something like (push "/usr/local/lisp/*/" asdf:*central-registry*) 23:20:48 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:05 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:22:06 fussss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:17 laptop battery :-S 23:23:10 <_3b> gigamonkey: different tooltips on the state name and the rest of the state is mildly confusing 23:23:11 hypno: You can create a 'systems' dir, symlink all your asd files there, and then push that one dir onto *central-registry*. 23:23:32 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:23:32 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@30.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:23:41 pinterface: ah, bravissimo! :) 23:24:05 _3b: yeah, I think that "Election 2008" tooltip is coming from the main . I haven't been motivated enough to figure out how to disable it. 23:24:33 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@30.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:24:33 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 23:24:37 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:24:59 bloody hell, nice toy gigamonkey, i can actually see it with the 20+ inch monitor that was on my desk all along :-P 23:25:24 fussss: aparently it's a non-trivial problem to make XUL apps resize nicely. 23:25:43 At least I haven't figured it out. 23:26:22 gigamonkey: are you Peter Siebel? 23:26:27 radetsky: yes. 23:26:33 thanks for PCL 23:26:34 THE 23:26:51 radetsky: no problem. 23:27:17 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-0c-f6-20-8c-57.k102.webspeed.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:52 *antifuchs* thoroughly explores the space available to wrong answers to Xach's fruit roll-up question 23:28:04 gigamonkey: neat stuf! 23:28:26 chandler: the real fun will be on 11/4 when it will actually start changing in front of your eyes. 23:29:19 anyone familiar with "Unity", the game programming browser plugin. half the games i have seen use it don't do anything more what flash does. 23:30:10 gigamonkey: how come +ve "paranoia" favors McCain? :-P 23:30:21 fussss: I've been outed! 23:30:29 liberal 23:31:23 you can't spell "conservative" without "cons"! 23:31:24 in the USian sense ;-) 23:32:44 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:09 *fussss* thinks it's too ugly to write an emulator as a massive tagbody 23:33:37 gigamonkey: so we're going to start seeing some real change on 11/4, then? But what about hope? Can your app give us hope? 23:34:18 this is the last HOPE. Hackers on Planet Earf. 23:35:11 *Fare* ends up sending a "help" mail on the ecl mailing list. 23:36:05 gigamonkey: sorry...i have neither 23:36:06 I wonder if I should publish cl-launch 2.08 despite lack of support for dumping images on ecl (considering that such support is already broken with cl-launch 2.07 and any recent ecl) 23:36:19 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:27 does anyone use cl-launch, anyway? 23:37:04 Fare: i was going to use cl-launch, but it didn't work with sbcl like i hoped 23:37:12 Fare: i would probably use 2.08! 23:37:13 -!- radetsky [n=dan@adsl-76-212-0-94.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:25 Xach: doh! 23:37:54 Xach: my copy here works with SBCL like you hope, just not published yet 23:38:01 -!- lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:38:17 *Fare* thinks about punting on ECL for 2.08 23:38:23 *Xach* found himself with at least *two* ZS3 users 23:38:30 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:41:00 -!- fussss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:41:48 gigamonkey: screenshot? 23:43:04 fussss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:50 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:45:56 -!- fussss is now known as fusss 23:49:42 Xach: pushed a new fix for %close-foreign-library. If no more brokeness is found before thursday I'll release that as 0.10.3 23:50:07 luis: sbcl is coming out real soon too 23:50:32 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 23:50:34 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:51:18 Xach: yeah, that's my plan, to release the fix before the new SBCL comes out. 23:51:25 cool 23:51:55 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:17 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:56:08 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:57:15 radetsky [n=dan@adsl-76-212-8-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:16 disumu [n=disumu@p57A26311.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:41 smithzv [n=smithzv@duan145-125-dhcp.colorado.edu] has joined #lisp 23:59:14 How do I tell format to use an #\e instead of a #\d when printing double-floats? I see `exponentchar' in the ~E directive, but how do I specify a character to format? 23:59:27 clhs ~E 23:59:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ccb.htm