00:01:30 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:49 -!- jso` is now known as jso 00:03:44 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:04:43 V-ille, still awake? 00:04:56 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 00:05:10 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:05:40 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:31 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:07:49 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 00:07:50 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:12 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:09:23 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:31 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [Client Quit] 00:09:37 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:10:14 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:14:14 -!- _adeht is now known as adeht 00:20:14 i just cant believe it, my version of ABCL is 3 times faster than whats in SVN 00:20:51 the only differnce besides the src changes was 'ecj' vs 'javac' 00:21:18 the src changes are pretty radical.. i avioded tons of casting 00:21:27 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:25:03 so i am testing both using the same compiler now 00:26:57 ((Fixnum)myFixnum).value becomes myFixnum.intValue() by ussing a default and making intValue() throw a classcastexception in a superclass method 00:31:00 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:31:53 good to see people hacking on ABCL 00:31:58 -!- sleven [n=user@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:32:04 *hefner* wonders what happened to piso 00:32:39 also the other trick was making ConditionThrowable extend ClassCastException instead of Throwable for those cases that someone is going to subclass lisp object that needs to implment a conflicting interface 00:32:55 ehu and V-ille sorta took it over for piso 00:33:01 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 00:33:44 i am trying to use it to replace a javalisp we use at work 00:34:10 trying to get it to run as fast to ;P 00:38:56 xreyes_ [n=xreyes@175.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 00:39:20 rm -rf *.abcl ../j/build ../j/*.abcl 00:39:36 oops 00:39:45 -!- xreyes [n=xreyes@175.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:39:58 sleven [n=user@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:38 whoar the people behind allegro, sbcl etc? professors? private companies? is research being done on programming languages using lisp? 00:40:57 -!- froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41:00 meaning do sbcl and allegro etc change or are they just being polished? 00:41:48 What's the difference? 00:42:10 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 00:42:11 ths_ [n=ths@X7737.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:43:00 pkhoung: what do you mean? the diff is obv no? take multicore programmign for example, is anyhting done to address that? or sbcl is the same as it was ten years ago but with fewer bugs? 00:43:01 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:44:18 sleven: They offer threads 00:47:11 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.62.4.228] has joined #lisp 00:48:34 -!- xreyes_ is now known as xreyes 00:48:55 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:49:31 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:50 sleven: no, the difference isn't obvious. Where does Krystof's work on custom specialisers in the MOP fall? Is it more polish on PCL, or research on programming languages? 00:50:29 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-79-91.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:51:00 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:52:19 I wouldn't call it polish 00:52:29 -!- sleven [n=user@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:52:42 well, it might be polish on language design, but not polish on implementation 00:54:00 what if someone works on prototypes? There's some 10 yo (misleading) code for those in PCL. 00:54:49 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.114.119] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:54:50 I suppose you mean prototype OO and not class-prototype? 00:55:04 right 00:56:20 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:57:35 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 00:58:51 -!- ths [n=ths@X4426.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:41 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:30 twalsh_ [n=Tim@nat/redhat/x-05cfc40a26f31877] has joined #lisp 01:04:54 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:05:02 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:02 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-6fa42e9f66d7e1e0] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:07:18 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-6ffe886e1dcc5fa2] has joined #lisp 01:09:32 "sbcl" isn't 10 years old 01:09:53 I was a lisper for a year when the project started (and I'm still a noob ;-) 01:09:54 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:28 fusss: sure. What's your point? 01:10:58 " .. sbcl is the same it was ten years ago" <-- 01:11:26 fusss: it could the same as cmucl 10 years ago + some spit & polish. 01:12:19 cmucl was still an "industrial strength" system 10 yeas ago 01:13:36 ...is cmucl worse (say compatibilitywise, even if no actual regressions) now, or have expectations increased? 01:14:03 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 01:15:18 xreyes_ [n=xreyes@175.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:51 cmucl keeps improving 01:16:59 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:17:06 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:22 specially if you want a free "integrated" lisp environment 01:17:52 I asked the question really because it seems like that there's a lot of software that Was State Of The Art Then, Is Now Barely Usable 01:18:07 and I can only conclude that it's because expectations shift 01:19:28 the compiler still optimizes better than sbcl, i was told 01:19:32 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F324.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:19:39 -!- xreyes [n=xreyes@175.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:59 cmucl numeric computing kicks the pants out of any lisp, almost fortranish 01:20:30 i'd like to see an example on x86-64. 01:20:32 but it doesn't work well as a multithreaded web server host that needs to belch in unicode 01:20:36 I suspect that any case where cmucl drastically outperforms sbcl could be considered a bug in sbcl :) 01:20:39 disumu [n=disumu@p57A27D6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:33 i used to peruse the sbcl sources (circa < v1.0) and there were comments about removal of aggressive optimization, etc. 01:21:36 hefner: there's the block compilation stuff, but for numerics, I don't really see how that could be important. Maybe the non-standard compliant overeager automatic type declarations. 01:22:47 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:23:04 -!- _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 01:23:53 but i'll let real hackers deal with numerics (most of my performance improvements is due to better choice of serialization order for Elephant stored clos objects :-) 01:28:51 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:38 tfincannon [n=chatzill@75.147.136.46] has joined #lisp 01:31:43 -!- tfincannon [n=chatzill@75.147.136.46] has left #lisp 01:33:43 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:14 tfincannon [n=chatzill@75.147.136.46] has joined #lisp 01:34:33 -!- tfincannon [n=chatzill@75.147.136.46] has left #lisp 01:34:52 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:35:37 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 01:36:58 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:20 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:40:41 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:46 ths [n=ths@X48b5.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:59 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:47:31 sudoer [n=jtoy@58.61.222.104] has joined #lisp 01:50:10 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.62.4.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:51 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Gone"] 01:53:13 mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0169w-142177159049.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:10 as a budding lisper, is deftype something i should concern myself with? 01:54:57 mcspiff: Probably not so much immediately. 01:55:56 one question I did have about it, is does it integrate with CLOS? I could see that being useful 01:56:15 i know i dispatch based off of classes, structs, built in types 01:56:30 no, it doesn't 01:57:05 ah ok. I'll leave it alone then 01:57:25 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:57:29 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #lisp 01:57:33 because then you could have ambiguous dispatch, and CL isn't big on that. 01:57:49 *hefner* rarely uses deftype 01:57:59 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X7737.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:30 fair enough 01:59:12 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:03:42 liaohaohui [n=liaohaoh@133.247.208.218.brf01-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 02:05:07 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-71-174-175-161.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:05:36 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 02:07:19 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:08:48 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:06 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:14:40 -!- liaohaohui [n=liaohaoh@133.247.208.218.brf01-home.tm.net.my] has left #lisp 02:17:25 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-196.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:21:15 -!- timor101 [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:21:37 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:23:22 -!- Zhivago_ is now known as Zhivago 02:28:03 O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-191-101.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 02:34:28 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-172.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:37 Any screen and emacs users around? 02:35:07 *hefner* hasn't seriously used emacs in screen since twenty and a '04 02:35:53 I'm wondering if there's a common solution to the C-a conflict between screen and emacs. 02:36:18 I move it to C-o. Whatever command that conflicts with I never use anyway. 02:36:35 gigamonkey: C-a a isn 02:36:42 screen -e ^Oo is what I habitually type 02:37:04 t that bad. I think the mapping was specifically chosen to avoid conflicting with C-c and C-x. 02:37:15 _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:41 pkhuong: I use C-a all the time to go to the beginning of a line. It's not even conscious behavior. 02:39:15 gigamonkey: so do i, and I C-a a subconsciously when I'm in a terminal :| 02:39:52 Also, if I'm ssh'ing in a Terminal (on OS X) into the box where I'm running screen and then running screen, where do I need to fix it so backspace works in my screen sessions? 02:40:39 pkhuong: are you saying you set up so 'C-a a' is your escape sequence rather than the default 'C-a'? 02:41:03 gigamonkey: no, just that when you press "C-a a", screen sends C-a. 02:41:39 Ah, does that generalize? I.e. does C-a send C-? 02:42:16 no, none of the other C-foo sequences are trapped by screen. 02:42:18 Not that it would matter for anything else. 02:42:37 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:43:01 if that were universally true, you couldn't use the screen commands for which C-a is trapped in the first place 02:43:02 Duh. Right. And some of the other C-a sequences are commands to screen--that's the whole point. 02:43:16 *gigamonkey* started typing that before hefner's comment. 02:43:34 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:44:04 so here's a question. do people beside me solve this problem by changing the screen key, and if so, what do they change it to? 02:45:16 hefner: I think i've heard of people using C-z. 02:46:24 Heh, the one key-chord Emacs users are highly trained *not* to use. 02:46:25 hefner: I use C-\ 02:46:54 that was interesting. all the lights on my keyboard simultaneously blinked three times and then it started spewing out 's' characters until I flailed around a little bit. 02:46:55 gigamonkey: (global-unset-key (kbd "C-z")) (: 02:47:31 pkhuong: no need. I've been trained. 02:47:59 Ah, about my backpace question, apparently the magic incantation is 'TERM=screen screen ...' 02:48:50 gigamonkey: I believe screen sets that automatically when it spawns a tty. 02:51:10 Well, doing it explicitly fixed the backspace problem. Though it seems to have made the terminal much uglier. 02:51:28 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:52:21 You're in a maze of twisty termcap files, all equally ugly. 02:52:24 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@138.88.126.7] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:53:20 Yeah. 02:53:35 I like using C-z for screen though. That's good. 02:57:03 I think my screen config file even recommends switching to C-z for emacs users, which is what I've always done. 03:03:04 Good night. Have to get up extra early to print exams out tomorrow. 03:07:41 Good night. 03:11:52 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:44 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-33-193-228.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:16:52 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 03:16:53 i'm trying to play a bit opengl and i've modified the gears.lisp example to draw some cubes instead, however when compiling i get illegal function call errors even on functions i havent really changed anything with. i'm still pretty new at lisp and this is not making an sense. any suggestions? 03:17:30 misplaced paren? 03:18:59 been over it a few times in the last hour, i'll give it another shot though 03:21:39 I'd go to the first such error and try reindenting things and watching the paren highlighting until it becomes clear what changed 03:22:23 or you're in the wrong package and all the funny macros become illegal syntax 03:27:43 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-172.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:29:06 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0169w-142177159049.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:29:12 mornin' #lisp 03:29:29 well the indenting works fine but defclass is an undefined function, the package has the :use :common-lisp in the declaration though, is clos related stuff not part of that? 03:29:51 clbuild is incredibly awesome 03:30:48 haiwei1 [n=haiwei@61.51.122.177] has joined #lisp 03:31:23 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A27D6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 03:32:08 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:32:21 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:30 Zhivago_ [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.18] has joined #lisp 03:35:30 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:31 -!- Zhivago [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.17] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:36:34 -!- Zhivago_ is now known as Zhivago 03:40:13 jlpeters [n=james@c-71-231-200-164.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:28 -!- jlpeters [n=james@c-71-231-200-164.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:40:48 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:43:21 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-141-189.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:39 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.243.48] has joined #lisp 03:48:10 binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.243.48] has joined #lisp 03:48:54 binarycodes__ [n=sujoy@59.93.243.48] has joined #lisp 03:48:56 -!- binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.243.48] has quit [Client Quit] 03:51:48 -!- binarycodes__ [n=sujoy@59.93.243.48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:52:59 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 03:53:49 -!- jso [n=user@host-154-148-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:54:54 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:55:33 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 03:55:44 morn' schme_ 04:03:00 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-68-238-164-124.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:04:24 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.243.48] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:05:37 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.241.172] has joined #lisp 04:10:42 photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 04:13:12 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:13:47 xolus [n=xolus@cpe-98-148-64-53.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:16:33 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ColdandFluNews/Story?id=6106018&page=1"] 04:25:59 -!- xaron [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Success] 04:29:08 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:26 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-141-189.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:35:12 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:42:57 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.241.172] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 04:45:22 -!- intrados [n=intrados@rdrt-164-107-204-170.resnet.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:48:48 -!- enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:55:46 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:56:49 enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has joined #lisp 05:05:58 good morning 05:06:39 morning. 05:08:34 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44995.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:46 What did I miss? Another interesting discussion about Lisp-1 vs Lisp-2 or LST vs LIST? 05:10:19 beach: morning, beach! 05:10:59 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A0237.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:11:19 *gigamonk`* wishes he understood statistics 05:11:34 *sykopomp* wishes he wasn't failing calculus 05:12:00 keram [n=oof@unaffiliated/keram] has joined #lisp 05:12:16 Anyone have any CL code for computing a normally distrtibuted random number with a given mean and standard deviation. 05:13:24 No, but I know how to do it. 05:13:54 Take a random number between 0 and 1 and feed it to the inverse of the integral of the distribution function. 05:14:16 are there any built in lisp functions to locate the next atom in a list 05:14:17 ? 05:14:33 keram: cadr? 05:14:34 keram: `next' compared to what? 05:14:43 (find-if #'atom yourlist)? 05:14:45 err, first not next 05:14:46 beach: okay, so all I need is the inverse of the integral of the distribution function. 05:14:54 That's the same as the inverse of the CDF, yes? 05:15:34 gigamonk`: I can't remember, because I can't remember what CDF is? 05:15:51 cummulative distribution function 05:15:52 sykopomp pasted "for gigamonkey" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69280 05:16:40 sykopomp: thanks 05:16:53 gigamonk`: just asked mogunus for it, no prob :P 05:17:05 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-69-206.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:17:31 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-134-56.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:17:34 -!- beach` is now known as beach 05:18:05 gigamonk`: that sounds right, yes. 05:19:28 sykopomp: so I'm an idiot but what is the argument X for? 05:20:02 gigamonk`: no idea. It's some weird closure juju magic. 05:23:39 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:23:45 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44EA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:55 Hmmm, by just guessing and poking, it seems that that closure may be the function beach told me I needed to feed uniformly distributed random numbers into. 05:26:18 Sounds about right by looking it over 05:28:03 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-8-192.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:28:19 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-69-206.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:28:21 -!- beach` is now known as beach 05:28:23 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 05:28:27 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 05:28:55 is there a way to do something like && in a cond? 05:29:19 AND? 05:29:23 (cond ((foo) && (bar) (return this)) 05:29:35 so AND instead of &&? 05:29:36 (cond ((and (foo) (bar)) (return this))) 05:29:42 ok cool. tanks 05:29:44 thanks* 05:29:53 Though you may or may not actually want a RETURN there. 05:30:21 keram: remember that the return value is the last form evaluated 05:30:40 keram: it looks like you need to read a text book on Lisp. 05:31:11 oh sorry i didnt mean to use the return statement. i meant some sort of other function 05:31:42 keram: `(return this)' is not a statement, but an expression or a form. 05:32:22 i meant it as: (cond ((and (foo) (bar)) (foobar))) :P 05:32:44 keram: and return is not a function, but a macro. 05:32:47 keram, have you had a peek at Practical Common Lisp, perhaps? 05:33:02 GOTO indeed! 05:33:25 not yet 05:33:55 Draggor: so when I generate a bunch of number with that function passing it values of (random 1d0) I get a set of numbers who's mean and standard deviation are consistently close to but non-trivially lower than the values I provided. Any ideas why that would be? 05:33:59 keram, I recommend you look at it. Not to get rid of you or anything, but a lot of these things are answered there, with much better explanations than we can provide over IRC. 05:34:08 minion, tell keram about pcl-book 05:34:09 keram: look at pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:34:20 keram, of course, you're welcome here too! 05:34:26 tic, ok, thanks for the pointer. i will go through it 05:34:30 :] 05:35:05 have you seen this before? http://ana.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc//humour/lisp.tree 05:36:01 yup. 05:36:35 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-118-149.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:36:51 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-8-192.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:36:54 haha its great. was returned when i searched for stacks in lisp 05:37:01 -!- beach` is now known as beach 05:37:21 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:37:29 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:38:16 whoa. Guy Steele. 05:38:19 hum 05:39:22 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-164.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:40:03 Bah never mind, that function wasn't returning anything close to the right mean and std deviation. 05:40:11 Someday I'll understand this stuff. 05:41:02 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-124-120.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:41:26 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-118-149.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:41:30 -!- beach` is now known as beach 05:43:55 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-124-120.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:43:58 is that the probability density function for a normal distribution? maybe (expt e ..) should be (* e ..) there 05:44:08 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-114-123.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:44:21 no, misread, nvm 05:44:30 Hmm, that's the fourth time my ISP disconnects me in just a few minutes. 05:45:11 beach, it's trying to hint at something? less IRC, more coding? :) 05:45:38 tic: you are way too nice to them. 05:45:54 gigamonk`: Numerical Recipes is online for free, I'm sure you can come up with a semi-useful thing 05:46:56 Yeah. I've also found some wikipedia pages that seem promising. 05:48:28 Acutally, I have a calc based stats book in the apartment somewhere, lemme see if it has helpful stuff 05:49:56 for an algorithmic solution, you probably need to convert from continuous match stuff to something less accurate but more computarizable 05:50:32 numerical analysis != pure analysis 05:56:01 Okay, so suppose I had some numbers with a zero mean and standard deviation of one--is there some easy way to scale those to an arbitrary mean and standard deviation? 05:58:01 gigamonk`: I think that's on the wikipedia page for the normal distribution. 05:58:40 -!- xolus [n=xolus@cpe-98-148-64-53.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:59:05 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:59:12 let's agree that all these terms are just agreed upon conventions 06:00:09 i really wasn't getting at a point there :-S 06:00:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean 06:00:37 take your defenition of "mean" 06:03:33 gigamonkey annotated #69280 with "Here's what I came up with" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69280#1 06:04:27 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 06:05:02 jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:18 On a completely different note here's something fun I've been working on for folks who care about the upcoming US Presidential election and are running Mozilla 3: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/election/election.xul 06:06:31 That's partly Lisp powered so not *totally* off-topic. 06:12:20 gigamonk` interesting 06:13:04 but irrelevant if you believe that social predictions are an illusion ;p 06:13:24 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:56 gigamonk`: i can't see the right column fully on ff 06:15:16 xristos: Well, the real point is how it'll behave on election day. As long as the Intrade traders track things reasonably well as we start getting exit polls and real results, the map will converge in a way that should be fun to watch. 06:15:28 fusss: em, notebook < 15"? 06:15:38 laptop, 14" 06:15:53 I basically built it on my 15" PB. 06:16:07 So that may be the minimum size. Sorry. 06:16:25 actually no, 15" 06:17:00 Though not all 15" screen are equally wide right--different aspect ratios can still be 15" 06:17:05 -!- echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:17:06 is it supposed to flicker like that? 06:17:14 yeah I guess 06:17:30 If it's flashing blue and red yes. But then click on the map to get a different coloring. 06:17:44 (It's all explained in the text you can't see.) 06:18:54 oh, never mind then :-P 06:19:28 too bad, the one XUL hacking #lisper from a swing state cann't see the instructions ;-) 06:20:26 What state? 06:20:57 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #lisp 06:21:33 the proud state of Virginia, the fighting 8th! 06:21:44 -!- Wizard_ [n=wizard@90.150.216.184] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:21:52 and you? 06:24:16 California. My vote never counts. 06:24:48 meh 06:25:00 It's the same here in Chicago =p 06:25:17 Okay. So you're up way later than me but I, nonetheless, need to go to bed. Good night. 06:25:50 nite 06:26:24 -!- twalsh_ [n=Tim@nat/redhat/x-05cfc40a26f31877] has quit [] 06:28:11 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 06:29:57 ivanst [i=ivans@93-136-5-167.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 06:34:50 gigamonk`: I live in Georgia, so my vote doesn't count, but I lean libertarian, so my vote wouldn't count anywhere anyway 06:38:40 *fusss* hates verbose web-developers with self-aggrandizing blogs 06:39:11 yes sir, your ubber 31337 CSS hacks will not be used to further fascist causes by me 06:39:28 blAckEn3d [n=Alex@p54BA28D3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:45:28 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 06:47:07 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 06:47:57 *tic* has a 15,4" at 1920x1200... 06:49:31 -!- blAckEn3d [n=Alex@p54BA28D3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["leaving"] 06:49:45 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:50:09 tic: Huh? How is that possible? 06:50:57 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:29 vy, you'll have to ask Dell. 06:52:41 Which model? 06:52:54 Latitude D820 (laptop) 06:53:11 otherwise, I recommend the Lenovo L220x 22" @ 1920x1200 06:55:10 tic: I hate large laptops. Good grief. 06:55:18 sykopomp, so do I. 06:56:02 I adore screen real estate, though. I'm on two 22" widescreens right now :). 1680x1050 is about as high resolution as my eyes can still read at, though. 06:56:25 sykopomp, are you sure 1920x1200 on a 22" would push it? The L220x is _amazing_. 06:56:50 sykopomp: decrease the distance between you and the screen. 06:57:37 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.46] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:57:38 beach: I'm slouching forward. I'm about 12in from the screens right now, and it's a bit blurry (mostly because my eyes are drying up) 06:58:22 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:58:26 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:58:39 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 06:59:51 <_Jordan_> Is PAIRLIS commonly used? 06:59:56 *beach* uses two 1600x1200 screens 07:00:19 _Jordan_: go to common-lisp.net; download the stuff, and do a grep. 07:01:34 -!- haiwei1 [n=haiwei@61.51.122.177] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:01:47 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:49 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:04:22 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:04:32 *tic* uses a 1200x1600 and a 1920x1200 screen. 07:04:35 good morning 07:04:42 hello mvilleneuve 07:06:05 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:06:16 -!- jsimonss_ [n=jesse@urda-140.teknologforeningen.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:06:24 jsimonss [n=jesse@urda-140.teknologforeningen.fi] has joined #lisp 07:12:16 <_Jordan_> beach: sorry if it was a dumb question. I'm not running into it so far. From the description in PCL it didn't seem immediately useful; was just curious 07:15:43 _Jordan_: There are many features of Common Lisp that one hardly ever needs, but when one does, they are very handy. 07:16:32 _Jordan_: So even though you haven't run into a use case yet, that doesn't mean that you won't. 07:17:55 <_Jordan_> beach: I'm sure! That was why I asked :) Mainly I was curious about this: "The resulting alist may contain the pairs either in the same order as the original lists or in reverse order." 07:18:14 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Success] 07:18:33 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 07:19:15 _Jordan_: Well, alists are usually used as dictionaries, so the order is not important. 07:24:45 <_Jordan_> beach: Ah, right, I'm retarded! (for some reason I read it as it would pair the key list with the reverse of the value list... so as usual, I'm the source of my own confusion, sorry) 07:24:55 Zhivago_ [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.18] has joined #lisp 07:25:04 That would be confusing, indeed. 07:25:53 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:57 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:27:22 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-95-222.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:27:45 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-114-123.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:27:50 -!- beach` is now known as beach 07:29:51 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:30:03 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.209.197] has joined #lisp 07:30:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:42 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 07:32:59 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@68.237.103.31] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:33:40 benny [n=benny@i577A0EC4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:33:45 -!- xreyes_ [n=xreyes@175.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:33:54 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-164.kosnet.ru] has quit ["."] 07:38:43 -!- _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 07:41:57 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:44:05 xreyes_ [n=xreyes@175.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:45:05 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-103-31.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:10 haiwei1 [n=haiwei@61.149.139.156] has joined #lisp 07:47:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 07:50:34 -!- Zhivago [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:50:45 -!- Zhivago_ is now known as Zhivago 07:53:07 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 07:53:34 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:57:10 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C7AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:01:54 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 08:05:52 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:17:14 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:20:45 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:22:01 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #lisp 08:24:27 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-111-80.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:26:54 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-95-222.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:27:02 -!- beach` is now known as beach 08:28:46 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:29:40 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 08:31:17 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:30 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.196.118] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 08:34:39 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:36:35 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-164.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 08:39:43 -!- lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:42:43 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:43:16 hello lispers 08:43:24 good morning 08:47:46 brill [n=brill@193.3.8.1] has joined #lisp 08:51:23 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:53:28 sidewinder128 [n=chatzill@nttkyo589168.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:54:11 -!- echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:56:55 hrmpf 08:57:01 sbcl is misbehaving 08:57:37 -!- sidewinder128 [n=chatzill@nttkyo589168.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has left #lisp 08:57:58 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:59:29 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:03:23 mathrick pasted "Can't step into FOO" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69287 09:03:39 is there anything I'm doing wrong that I'm not seeing? 09:03:45 it refuses to step into FOO 09:04:02 with no errors, too, it just says "evaluation aborted" 09:12:22 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:13:24 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:14:52 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:54 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 09:17:01 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:17:34 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:18:02 appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:23:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:25:29 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-006-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:37 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:30:46 :): 09:32:38 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:34:51 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 09:37:41 lispm [n=joswig@f054055227.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:38:59 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:39:14 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:39:52 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-088-067-011-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:44:51 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:45:53 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:46:06 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:50:45 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:09 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 09:53:15 morning 09:59:11 morning Xof 09:59:12 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BAC4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:04 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:04:50 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:06:36 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 10:08:12 cracki [n=cracki@44-217.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:09:57 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BAC4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:17:15 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:59 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:27:34 -!- ths [n=ths@X48b5.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:28:20 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@58.61.222.104] has quit [] 10:29:59 two related questions: 1. Is there a standard non-negative name for remove-if-not (something like "grep") ? 2. Why is it deprecated if there is no such replacement ? 10:30:34 non-negative? remove-if ? 10:30:56 for (2) the deprecation is acknowledged to be an error, from overzealous generalization of the deprecation of :test-not arguments 10:30:57 i think it is generally agreed that remove-if-not deprecation should be ignored. 10:31:43 tic: no, it's just a naming issue. "remove-if-not" is less readable than "grep" for me, for the same thing. 10:32:01 Xof: ok. 10:32:06 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA041.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:32:23 moin 10:34:53 kuwabara, grep means Global REgular expression Print. Don't know how that'd be more readable.. 10:34:56 hi H4ns 10:35:10 something like FILTER 10:35:39 KEEP-IF 10:36:02 kuwabara: a saner name would be filter :) 10:37:55 for those interested ;-) I'm talking about CLIM on wednesday at the Lisp Hamburg meeting 10:38:08 I agree. 10:38:18 I like KEEP-IF. 10:38:27 Got McCLIM compiled on SCL, so I will also show a bit of McCLIM 10:38:37 jgracin [n=jgracin@89-172-52-150.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:41:01 lispm: Great! Do you think gilberth is going to be there? 10:41:17 puh, I don't think so 10:41:19 sweet 10:41:24 but that is a great idea 10:41:35 we should invite him sometime 10:41:48 beach, any signs of activity from him? 10:42:11 I got CLIMACS and GSHARP working, so I can show screens with that, too 10:42:14 lispm: Sure. But only company related. 10:42:28 Lisp related? ;-) 10:42:42 ths [n=ths@p549AD0DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:47 lispm: The server used by the company is written in Lisp, yes. 10:43:03 kuwabara: no-one would ever search for that 10:43:16 but the idea is good, I'll talk to the meeting organizer Jens Teich 10:43:19 FILTER is generally accepted for this kind of, well, filtering function 10:43:48 lispm: perhaps if he knows there is going to be some CLIM activity he will show up. How about giving him a call? 10:44:11 do you have a number? 10:44:15 is Lisp Hamburg intended to be a german-speaking event? 10:44:28 lispm: check out base-engineering near Hamburg 10:44:30 *mathrick* happens to be much closer to Hamburg than to Boston 10:44:31 okay 10:45:13 m4dnificent [n=user@kotnet-151.kulnet.kuleuven.be] has joined #lisp 10:45:15 mathrick, it is every last wednesday 19:00, usually it is german speaking, but you will find all people can speak english 10:45:25 +49 40 52981130 it seems 10:45:40 lispm: mhm, what about talks? 10:46:38 I'm having troubles with the sbcl-version of lispbox, it doesn't want to use asdf-install, and it doesn't want to load the asd's that are in ~/.sbcl/systems/ 10:47:06 m4dnificent: presumably that's because it's lispbox, which is meant to be standalone 10:47:14 lispm: it this meeting at freiheit.com again? (: 10:47:49 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-217.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:47:54 mathrick: but it should have support for asdf-install (at least, it is mensioned at http://gigamonkeys.com/lispbox/) 10:47:57 beach, I haven't reached him but left a message for him 10:48:04 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2CABC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:13 mathrick: if requested one could think about english ;-) 10:48:34 antifuchs: this time at the Fachhochschule in Wedel, east of Hamburg 10:48:41 ah, cool 10:49:04 m4dnificent: I see no mention of asdf-install, only asdf 10:49:13 oops, west of hamburg 10:49:16 you should note that they are distinct and not interchangable 10:49:28 if it had been there, I'd have asked you to say hello to Frank Schimmel for me (: 10:49:29 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:49:30 lispm: ah, cool, I'll think about it when I'm less short on cash then :) 10:50:10 mathrick: woops, my bad. It does have an asd for it though 10:50:46 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 10:52:06 lispm: OK, I'll send him email too. 10:53:03 I hope Stefan Richter also is there (we have to check that), he wanted to talk about a web application that his company wanted to write in Lisp and another version in Java - and compare the development 10:53:08 beach, thanks! 10:53:34 the Lisp version exists already, I don't know if they have the Java version yet ;-) 10:54:13 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:57:05 hehe 10:57:08 is there some way to install packages on lispbox without using asdf-install? I tried adding links to the asd's in .sbcl/site/ (I installed those on another computer). (require 'asdf) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :zpng) ;; errors with 'component "zpng" not found 10:57:20 lispm: do you know what they wrote it in (the lisp version)? 10:57:33 also, why does SBCL insist on being a mean bitch? 10:57:57 lispm: that's an interesting study 10:58:13 m4dnificent: again, ~/.sbcl/ shouldn't be read by lispbox. Unless you mean some other .sbcl 10:58:31 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 10:59:02 mathrick: I meanth ~/.sbcl... I'll copy the libraries to lispbox's site (and link to those) 10:59:54 m4dnificent: you could (require :asdf-install), (asdf-install:install :zpng) too 11:00:05 mathrick: and that doesn't work... 11:00:21 aha 11:01:20 m4dnificent: there's also the (push asdf:*asdf-central-registry* #p"/path/to/lib.asd") technique 11:04:12 mathrick: not really, I could tell more when I've heard the talk ;-) 11:05:34 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 11:05:35 okay, so now there are more eyeballs in the channel, any idea about http://paste.lisp.org/display/69287 ? 11:05:47 it refuses to step into FOO 11:05:52 with no errors, too, it just says "evaluation aborted" 11:12:35 pjb [n=t@intergruas.easynet.es] has joined #lisp 11:13:04 mathrick: it does seem to werk here... (sbcl) 11:13:58 *grumble* 11:14:07 maybe I'll try a newer SBCL 11:14:12 it should do it anyway 11:14:16 although it used to work fine 11:15:07 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:15:58 after pushing the asd onto asdf:*central-registry*, (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :xmls) still throws an error. 'component "xmls" not found' 11:16:44 spytheman [n=dido@78.90.30.32] has joined #lisp 11:17:26 cl-ppcre does load... 11:18:19 -!- spytheman [n=dido@78.90.30.32] has left #lisp 11:18:42 spytheman [n=dido@78.90.30.32] has joined #lisp 11:24:24 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-51.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:25:16 -!- adeht is now known as _adeht 11:25:45 any other ideas on my lispbox's issues? (All this, because I'm not allowed to do the presentation on my own laptop) 11:28:56 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:29:07 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:30:26 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:33:14 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0EC4.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:34:14 benny [n=benny@i577A0EC4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:34:17 hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 11:34:36 -!- hugopt is now known as hugo 11:39:58 timor101 [n=icke@w0051.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 11:41:02 can somebody tell me how i can find the shortest(longest) path in a graph with cl-graph? 11:41:18 i dug through the docs but couldnt find the right function 11:41:20 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@v113243.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:41:36 path between two specific nodes, i must add 11:45:37 maybe there is no "find shortest path" function in cl-graph? 11:45:59 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:46:24 intrados [n=intrados@rdrt-164-107-204-170.resnet.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 11:47:23 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-191-101.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 11:50:21 I apologize for my questions... I did not know the installation of sbcl was that simple. Thanks for the help I got. And it would still be nice to see asdf-install support for lispbox 11:51:56 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.203.144] has joined #lisp 11:55:24 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-164.kosnet.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:59:45 ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:03:00 -!- brill [n=brill@193.3.8.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:04:44 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:08:07 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@abdallo.cs.unibo.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:08:14 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@abdallo.cs.unibo.it] has joined #lisp 12:08:53 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-164.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:09:16 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@abdallo.cs.unibo.it] has quit [Client Quit] 12:09:47 -!- ilSignorCarlo is now known as Mr_SpOOn 12:13:10 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9DD7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:13:10 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:13:22 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA041.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:13:26 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 12:14:43 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 12:14:56 binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.197.230] has joined #lisp 12:21:32 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.209.197] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:21:38 -!- jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:22:01 -!- binarycodes_ is now known as binarycodes 12:29:54 cpape [n=user@p5484D567.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:00 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 12:30:22 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:32:23 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:34:09 -!- m4dnificent [n=user@kotnet-151.kulnet.kuleuven.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:36:10 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:38 -!- medic33 [n=medic33@12-210-144-200.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:38:02 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:38:36 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:56 Hello! 12:39:42 hello b4 12:39:59 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 12:40:10 I wrote a small step-by-step tutorial about installing cl-weblocks using clbuild a while ago (https://0brg.net/~hraban/blog/2008/a-laymans-guide-to-weblocks) and I asked for some critical reviews on weblocks' mailing list (http://groups.google.com/group/weblocks/browse_thread/thread/b5d8722f392513f) 12:40:34 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:40:49 So far, I've had one response, but it's quite interesting: he says that what you get when you install something using clbuild, is a stale branch 12:40:55 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:00 <_8david> b4: Did you try Albert's clbuild fork? 12:42:02 <_8david> http://darcs.moltkeplatz.de/cgi-bin/darcsweb.cgi?r=clbuild;a=summary 12:42:14 I always assumed that clbuild used the "trunk" of every package, but does this mean that it just chooses whatever branch is most recent at that time? Or does this mean that clbuild automatically switches to a newer stable branch when one is available but, in that sense, always uses a real release, not the trunk? 12:43:13 <_8david> You'd have to ask that the weblock people. If Albert's fork is right, weblocks was moved to mercurial, and upstream clbuild still has the old repo. 12:43:22 haha 12:43:25 i am utterly baffled by all the different build/packaging tools for cl these days 12:43:39 there seems to be a new one every month that tries to solve a slightly different problem than all the others 12:43:41 <_8david> all two of them? 12:44:09 <_8david> more precisely, all 1 build tool (ASDF) and 2 download tools (asdf-install and clbuild) 12:45:26 beach, thanks! 12:45:34 Gilbert is interested 12:46:07 there are definitely more, possibly in various states of obsolescence or alpha development 12:46:13 I could also make him interested in giving a talk at some later Lisp meeting here in Hamburg/Germany. 12:46:20 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 12:47:15 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.252.109] has joined #lisp 12:47:52 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.252.109] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:48:21 _8david, well, "upstream" clbuild has no repo at all anymore; http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-weblocks/darcs/ 12:48:59 <_8david> s/has the old repo/has the old repo's URL in its list of projects/ 12:49:10 <_8david> b4: as for your tutorial, I recommend using "clbuild lisp" or "clbuild slime" to avoid doing the .sbclrc dance 12:49:40 _8david, ok, thanks 12:50:14 <_8david> (Hacking .sbclrc manually is a fine option for experts, of course, but for a quick getting-started guide, I'd use clbuild to do that, especially because that avoids trouble due to an existing, misconfigured .sbclrc.) 12:50:21 but wouldn't it be a good idea to notify whoever is responsible for clbuild about this? 12:50:35 ok, I'll see what I can do, thanks a lot for your feedback :) 12:50:42 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:51:05 <_8david> b4: I'd also be interested whether Albert's clbuild solves that metatilies-base problem you had. As is, it all sounds a bit disappointing because of the troubles you had to go through. 12:51:10 lispm: great! 12:51:16 creddy_ [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-146-88.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:51:31 _8david, well, if you have clear error messages it's not all that hard 12:51:43 <_8david> Well, as far as I'm concerned, Albert is "responsible" for clbuild. :-) He just doesn't have commit access to upstream clbuild yet, so you need to use his repository for now. 12:51:44 you spend the most time waiting for the stuff to build, but other than that it was easy to do 12:51:47 -!- haiwei1 [n=haiwei@61.149.139.156] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:51:52 but it took me a while to get the whole metatilities thing 12:51:59 and to understand how you really build your own package 12:52:02 Who is Albert? 12:52:14 Xach, somebody who maintains a clbuild fork, I guess :) 12:52:34 I guess that's all you can really say about anyone, in the end. 12:53:13 was this a philosophical statement or are you suggesting I see everybody as no more than a clbuild fork maintainer? :P 12:54:00 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 12:54:08 can't it be both? 12:54:10 maybe we could create a few more forks of build and install tools just so they outnumber actual packages 12:54:20 heh 12:54:59 I thought clbuild was pretty neat for the common libraries 12:55:17 it's also pretty clear on what the difference is with asdf-install on its homepage 12:55:31 *Xach* can't use clbuild due to the variety of version control systems it drags stuff from 12:55:39 no? 12:56:29 i can't access the wackier ports. 12:56:38 <_8david> that's what I call the "my Mac OS is too dumb to ship darcs, so clbuild sucks" argument 12:56:53 oh.. that's pretty lame. no possibility for a proxy? 12:56:55 I have the programs, can't access the ports 90% of the time. 12:57:10 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 12:57:20 I like the idea, but it doesn't work for me. 12:57:49 <_8david> Xach: so if we preferred http:// URLs over git:// URLs it would all work out for you? 12:57:58 can't you set up a system-wide HTTP proxy that allows CONNECT or something similar...? 12:57:59 no doubt i'm alone in this, but to me basing an install system on pulling source trees direct from revision-control repositories seems like a recipe for disaster 12:58:02 _8david: it would certainly work better. 12:58:08 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:58:20 locklace: it's not meant for normal people, it's for people who want to hack on each library in addition to whatever their real task was. 12:58:38 locklace, I am undecided on that myself... 12:58:42 <_8david> okay. As I understood it, chandler wanted exactly the opposite thing, becasue he was complaining about all the loose objects access through http:// had to fetch. 12:58:53 on one hand it does sound like it's very prone to small bugs 12:58:59 _8david: i don't mind multiple http requests very much. 12:59:02 Xach: ok, that wasn't clear to me, maybe i read the wrong web pages and documentation 12:59:05 on the other hand, it sounds like updates are mad quickly available 12:59:19 and it might urge developers to test the trunk more thoroughly 13:00:06 also, it sounds very inviting for other people to quickly fix a small bug and contribute a patch 13:00:16 b4: there are a number of things i could do, like set up clbuild on some other system and periodically rsync. i think one of the goals of clbuild is convenience, though, and doing hoopjumping makes it somewhat less worthwhile to me. 13:00:34 b4: it's just totally unsuitable for a user-level package system, but according to Xach at least it's not supposed to be that, so i guess that's fine as long as it's clear 13:00:48 Xach, no I mean a system wide solution, to allow access to excotic ports for any application from your system 13:01:01 locklace: oh, it's not clear. it gets recommended as the first option a lot of the time. 13:01:07 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:08 -!- creddy_ is now known as creddy 13:01:20 can't really do that easily, b4 13:01:26 -!- timor101 [n=icke@w0051.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:37 squid supports it, of course, but each SCM has its own way of specifying the proxy. 13:01:50 i dunno any of em that suport ftp_proxy/http_proxy env vars out of the box. 13:01:52 no way to wrap a virtual ethernet device in it? :) 13:01:57 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:02:01 The hassle of asking someone to update the company office firewall is not really worth it. 13:02:05 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:02:26 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:32 "harming the software industry by making them not use lisp!" :> 13:06:25 so, uh...for a user who just wants to install and run various packages, is asdf-install still considered the right way to do it, and does it work properly (for users and packagers)? 13:06:30 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:06:45 No. 13:06:56 :( 13:06:56 That's one of the reasons there is more than one, and more on the way. 13:07:05 locklace: you can give it a shot, though, and if it works, bonus. 13:07:19 and it's pretty easy to get into the system as a packager, if you don't mind making tarballs and putting them somewhere on the web. 13:07:44 so what are the problems with it? 13:07:45 _mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 13:07:57 (it's worked for me so far but i haven't tried to lean on it intensively) 13:08:21 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:08:21 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:08:33 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 13:08:55 hmm what's the fundamental problem with weblocks? 13:10:38 locklace: fragile and flaky use of external tools, central critical reliance on cliki, lack of much useful metadata about packages, pretty dumb as a http client, reliance on random external systems being up to work properly. 13:10:54 sorry, not "packages". software? 13:11:04 "stuff" 13:11:21 <_8david> I think it's great that cliki has those tarball download links for asdf-install. When I want a tarball, I don't actually use asdf-install, but cliki allows we to fetch that tarball using wget with googling all the time. 13:11:23 also the unfortunate portable asdf-install issue; there are two pieces of software that are subtly incompatible. 13:11:49 _8david: yeah, i use the shell script from the cliki asdf-install page from time to time 13:12:06 _8david: that's the really useful bit of metadata asdf-install has pushed into the world. 13:12:07 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:35 <_8david> "without googling" is what I wanted to say, although it probably makes sense either way 13:12:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0EC4.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:13:22 -!- oddlyzen [n=oddlyzen@151.202.125.227] has left #lisp 13:13:36 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 13:14:09 well, i hope this issue is resolved soon and a well-designed standard packaging system shows up, since confusion in this area is a huge deterrent to potential cl users 13:14:17 "shows up"? 13:14:22 like magic? from above? 13:14:41 more from the side. 13:15:54 of "soon", "well-designed", and "standard"? I'd only hope for one of those. 13:16:06 hah 13:16:11 pick any zero 13:16:24 it's also not obvious to me why some existing packaging system (not necessarily written in lisp) wouldn't do the job, it seems like enough of them have been invented in the last decade 13:16:28 <_8david> Will that happen before or after a single dictator-run CL implementations "shows up" and replaces the existing dozen implementations and their portability problems? 13:17:10 locklace: seventy percent NIH and seventy percent CL users having slightly different requirements than users of other languages. 13:19:04 e.g., not wanting a rigid distinction between building a system and using a system. 13:19:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:20:01 that's 140%. lots of percent to take into account. 13:20:35 that sounds about right, i would actually be surprised if those slightly different requirements were actually impossible to meet using current mature packaging tools, which necessarily tend to be rather generic 13:20:46 locklace: which ones did you have in mind? 13:20:58 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:21:46 locklace: i find your claim rather bold - a universally packaging system for common lisp must be at least as portable as common lisp itself to be universal. 13:22:10 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:10 universally /accepted/ 13:22:36 -!- jollygood_______ [n=jolly@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:22:51 the only way there would be to write it in common lisp. i'm pretty sure that any other solution will fail to find wide acceptance in the "lisp community" 13:22:56 jollygood_______ [n=jolly@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 13:24:39 Xach: i was just thinking of supposedly mature package and dependency management systems like debian, but i'm not at all an expert in this area, so maybe such systems really aren't portable or generic enough 13:24:59 H4ns: nevertheless, I think one can learn from other communities' solutions to these problems. 13:25:22 locklace: debian's packaging system is for installing software on linux systems. a critical part of its mechanism is bourne shell scripts. 13:25:24 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:25:31 kreuter: i agree. someone must write a program and put enough effort into porting it to make it an acceptable solution for many hackers. 13:25:54 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:26:02 locklace: consider windows. consider bsds. consider macos. 13:26:08 for example, having package metadata get into the system by executing a file is kinda bonkers. 13:26:19 s/into the system/into the Lisp/ 13:26:26 there are lots of problems that other systems have solved in various ways, like: how developers get involved, how quality is established or not, how trust is established or not, how freshness is established or not, consistency, testing, etc. 13:26:35 Xach: i thought it had been adopted in some other environments, but perhaps not; never heard of it being used for the likes of windows systems for instance 13:26:40 c|mell [n=cmell@v113243.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:26:51 locklace: not too many windows systems with /bin/sh installed, i'd guess. 13:26:55 <_8david> the packaging system software is a minor issue. Lack of people doing said packaging are the actual issue. 13:27:03 well, mainly the problem with dependencies on specific revisions is an issue.. 13:27:05 lack of people is definitely a handicap. 13:27:10 <_8david> Not to mention lack of software to package and lack of users to use it. :-) 13:27:28 at least, that is one of the big issues :) 13:27:39 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:35 it also seems like what people there are aren't often the "i have lots of time and energy but little skill, put me to work!" types 13:28:46 though the cl-gardeners thing brought a lot out of the woodwork 13:28:56 (only to not go much of anywhere from there, yet) 13:30:14 i think my point is mainly what kreuter said, not so much that we should be able to find a drop-in solution from what's out there now, as that we should be able to leverage a lot of the thinking that's already gone into this--e.g. if something like the debian system is an example of a good solution, see how much of it can be abstracted 13:31:10 i think NIH is a big trap here 13:31:23 locklace: i think the ideas are much more valuable than the implementation. 13:31:33 and i do think that any good solution would learn from the ideas of existing system. 13:31:36 (s) 13:34:25 can anybody think of packaging or library systems that don't end up using various external programs (make, tar, scripts, etc.)? 13:34:49 Xach: you're not allowed to offer your current work as an example. 13:34:51 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1FF76.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:31 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1C9E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:57 IIRC, rpm doesn't use scripts or other external programs like tar, cpio, gpg, etc) by default. scripts may be bundled as customization steps in the installation. 13:36:50 okay. rpm doesn't handle system construction, though, right? 13:36:50 I like very much the way gentoo does 13:37:01 s/gentoo/fe[nl]ix 13:37:14 kreuter: I'm not sure what you mean by that. 13:37:31 Xach: compiling things that need compiling, for instance. 13:37:47 kreuter: Oh, nope. 13:38:11 kreuter: Source rpms contain external commands to run to build and install the bundled source. 13:38:17 reference external commands, that is. 13:38:21 right 13:39:14 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.197.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39:17 I guess I think it might be unnecessarily restrictive to require a library tool for Lisp to be an all-in-Lisp affair. 13:39:43 Is it an error to pass unknown initargs to make-condition? 13:40:05 *Xach* gets conflicting answers from the "survey some lisps" approach 13:41:24 hmm, am I going a step too far in thinking that a lisp package manager would not (necessarily) even need to compile anything, ever? 13:41:33 yes. 13:41:37 b4: probably. 13:41:51 In the light of "getting it to work right first, and only then making it faster" 13:41:52 all sbcl fasls go stale in 30 days. 13:42:03 it would be possible to imagine a package manager that dealt only in compiled files, but that wouldn't work out in reality. 13:42:06 b4: maybe you have a different idea about what "compile" means :) 13:42:30 Xach, I mean to machine code, not to some-lisp-interpreter-byte-code 13:42:38 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-144-251.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 13:42:39 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc60.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:42:41 kreuter: yes, it would be better to abstract it, have a slot for "utility that does x" which could be an external tool for a given platform, could be an internal lisp thing, etc. 13:43:12 since, at least for other languages, those byte codes are totally OS independent, so that doesn't sound like an issue.. 13:43:26 b4: how do you not compile something again? 13:43:43 sorry? 13:44:27 basically; I'm wondering if a lisp package manager would have to deal with the cross-OS incompatibilities that most other non-source-package managers have to deal with 13:44:49 Not just cross-OS, either. 13:45:14 Xach: I can't find any reason why MAKE-CONDITION shouldn't signal an error there. 13:45:14 *Xach* finds himself kind of wishing make-condition *did* signal an error on unknown initargs 13:45:18 on sbcl, that is. 13:45:44 clozure cl does not signal errors for unknown initargs either 13:45:50 clisp does 13:46:48 blx [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:47:04 allegro cl too. 13:47:16 Does alexandria have anything similar to PROG1-LET? (It does DWIM.) 13:47:23 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 13:47:28 is anyone familiar with http://openpkg.org/ ? still unix-oriented but maybe has some useful ideas 13:48:49 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:12 kreuter: hmm, i guess MAKE-INSTANCE is explicit about the intarg thing, but MAKE-CONDITION lists no exceptional situations 13:50:10 b4, you have to deal with cross-Lisp or even cross-version issues. 13:51:04 hmm. is it possible to see lisp interpreters as just another package, a package that all other packages depend on? 13:51:23 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:28 lisp compilers, you mean? 13:51:37 b4: you're using all the wrong words. 13:51:46 ouch 13:51:47 ok 13:51:50 sorry, I come from Python :P 13:52:06 b4, most Lisp compilers of today produce highly-efficient machine code. 13:52:19 <_8david> FSVO"highly" 13:52:28 Well. 13:52:39 ooh I thought only a few every really compiled to machine code and that usually it was just run inside an interpreter 13:52:49 s/every/ever/ 13:52:59 b4: no, it's the other way around, usually. 13:53:06 ok.. 13:53:13 Xach: I think you might be able to contrive a story according to which a plist containing unrecognized initargs isn't an "initialization argument list", and so the call to MAKE-CONDITION would strictly be undefined. 13:53:32 kreuter: i'm willing to so contrive 13:55:00 the slightly weird thing is that "initialization argument list" is only really talked about in terms of CLOS protocol functions, and a condition system implementation needn't involve those, so it might be more straightforward to say that this is a hole in the spec. 13:55:00 hmm. but say a library is compiled to machine code by one compiler, and then another one compiles software b, that depends on a 13:55:09 b4: nope. 13:55:13 is that even possible? 13:55:17 there's no common ABI. 13:55:20 damn 13:55:33 "compile" doesn't mean what you probably think it does. 13:55:44 at least, not 'round here. 13:55:47 ok well when I think "compile to machine code" I think gcc and the like.. 13:55:58 and compile to byte code as java and python 13:56:21 right, but "machine code" doesn't imply anything about ABIs either. 13:56:24 it compiles into good old machine code 13:56:35 kreuter, no, I am aware, that's why I asked 13:56:51 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbba80d.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:57:10 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.200.86] has joined #lisp 13:57:30 <_8david> and conversely, byte code wouldn't make anything easier anyway, because implementation-specific macros would have been expanded already 13:57:57 -!- spytheman [n=dido@78.90.30.32] has left #lisp 13:58:16 tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:58:43 _8david, ok, good point. 14:00:27 anybody here going to attend tonight's Boston Lisp meeting who hasn't registered? 14:00:38 benny [n=benny@i577A0EC4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:01:06 *Xach* can't make it 14:01:40 :( 14:01:58 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:58 I'm almost as excited about this one as the last one. 14:01:59 timor101 [n=icke@w0352.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 14:02:37 then again, I've also read most of the Connection Machine book twice. 14:04:15 younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:06:32 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-68-238-164-124.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:25 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:12:48 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 14:14:40 kreuter: I'll be there. Also, how am I supposed to register again? 14:15:35 Oh, I'm dumb 14:15:55 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:16 I just scanned the links in the email looking for a registration one, but it's obfuscated, so it doesn't get linked. 14:16:35 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:16:51 sellout: you don't have to send mail, since you just told me. 14:17:12 kreuter: Right, but I would have last week, had I noticed the address ;) 14:17:19 ok 14:17:29 oyukito [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has joined #lisp 14:17:39 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:00 *tic* wishes he had gobs of money 14:18:16 : > 14:18:21 -!- oyukito is now known as topito 14:18:49 little activity here in Sweden, although I've seen a few more Lispers from around here 14:21:05 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:22:35 tic: vi finns bara pĺ internets 14:25:52 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054055227.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 14:27:04 blx, :) 14:27:19 /usr/bin/vi exists on my computer, though... ;) 14:27:20 In Oslo we have 3 companies that do Cl. Prime Trader, Selmer Furuholmen and Telenor Nexel 14:27:30 ltho i'm living in berlin atm 14:27:41 A total of about 130 proffecianl Lispers.. 14:27:41 Cool. I have to try to convince another Oslo company to start using CL. 14:27:43 gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:57 a /certain/ other Oslo-based company.. 14:28:23 younder: For which one do you work? 14:29:11 Neither at the moment 14:29:20 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 14:29:57 Xof_ [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 14:30:29 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["ich kann so nicht arbeiten! :p"] 14:30:53 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:42 hello can i ask something? 14:33:06 don't ask to ask. just ask. 14:33:11 ok 14:33:12 topito: anything but metaquestions. 14:33:12 no meta-questions! 14:33:21 ok sorry 14:33:44 -!- luis changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . common-lisp.net back in service, please email problems to admin@common-lisp.net. New: trivial-garbage 0.17, usocket 0.4.0, ABCL 0.0.11 14:34:04 i want to make a function in common lisp for calculating distance between object, the problem i have is that i need to send an object to the function 14:34:26 (foo object) ? 14:34:26 -!- froog__ is now known as froog 14:34:26 topito pasted "asdsds" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69293 14:34:28 *Xach* has deja vu 14:34:33 im gonna paste the code so you can better understand 14:34:44 yellow spheres? 14:34:48 Xach: hi! 14:34:52 hi luis 14:34:54 what is new? 14:35:02 topito, what's the problem? 14:35:15 perhaps want an abs in there 14:35:17 check the code 14:35:29 i have s1 and s2 14:35:32 topito: we can't guess what the problme might be. 14:35:35 but i need to pass an object 14:35:42 i can do this: 14:35:57 defun dist(sphere) 14:35:58 (dist (make-instance 'sphere ...) (make-instance 'sphere ...)) ? 14:36:06 but i need to compare 2 objects 14:36:16 that code is perfectly fine. 14:36:25 is fine? 14:36:33 topito: make-instance creates objects, so you should be fine. 14:36:46 ok im gonna try 14:36:49 (let ((s1 (make-instance 'sphereo ...)) (s2 (make-instance 'sphereo ...))) (dist s1 s2)) ; beware of parens. 14:37:26 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44A11.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:29 Code blowing up at runtime vs compile-time, how is that typically treated in Lisp code? 14:37:31 oh ok 14:37:34 topito: Not to be all grumpy, but maybe next time try first ask later ;) 14:37:35 Xach: not much, but will probably manage to sneak some SBCL hacking into my msc thesis soon. 14:37:58 beach: hi! 14:38:02 luis: do you have any control over fixing the current sbcl/cffi incompatibility? 14:38:12 Hello luis. What's up? 14:38:28 beach: did you see my private message? 14:38:36 oops! 14:38:51 Xach: I don't know. Where can I read about it? 14:38:53 (a friend reminded me of why he prefers C++ over languages such as Lisp, Python, etc. Couldn't answer it, maybe you can?) 14:39:03 luis: recent sbcl-devel 14:39:10 i dont know why my code is not working 14:39:14 can i paste all the code? 14:39:27 topito, you must give us more code. Annotate your original paste. 14:39:29 *Xach* gets a link 14:39:54 tic: Easer to find programmers and libraries? 14:40:05 minion: tell topito about lisppaste 14:40:05 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 14:40:22 attila_lendvai, he already did. :) http://paste.lisp.org/display/69293 14:40:37 *attila_lendvai* goes back lurking... :) 14:40:38 luis: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/12028 14:40:41 tic: you mean he prefers it blowing up at compile time? 14:40:44 younder, the paren was in addition to the first thing I said about runtime vs compile-time and blowing up. 14:40:47 sellout, yah. 14:41:05 sellout, i.e. "fixable directly" vs "might work, might not work" 14:41:28 i ve made a monolith code and it works fine, but now im trying to fix it , to make it look better, but when i try to create a distance function it doesnt work 14:41:33 topito pasted "asdsds" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69294 14:41:34 tic: unit tests are part of that. 14:41:39 How about the times yer code compiles, and segfaults or what not and it does *not* dump you into the debugger? :) 14:41:43 Xach: thanks, I'll look into it. 14:41:44 topito: don't paste with such garbage titles. 14:41:55 please check 14:41:55 tic: and what schme_ said 14:41:59 http://paste.lisp.org/display/69294 14:42:06 sorry xach 14:42:16 topito: exactly what does not work? 14:42:30 the distance function 14:42:33 dist 14:42:43 topito: how does it not work? 14:42:51 Xach: did Nikodemus fix it or am I misinterpreting that thread? 14:43:13 luis: nikodemus made a better interface available in sbcl. cffi is unchanged as far as i know. 14:43:34 it doesnt run 14:43:47 i dont know wh 14:43:47 why 14:43:49 topito: be more specific, please! 14:44:00 topito: do you have an error message? 14:44:04 it doesnt run, the program doesnt want to open 14:44:08 topito: does it give the wrong result? 14:44:15 beach i get a very long list 14:44:17 wanna read? 14:44:18 topito: what do you try when it doesn't run? 14:44:22 <_3b> does that draw function ever end? 14:44:23 tic: seems you are working on integers, so multiply the value by itself and use sqrti instead 14:44:31 sellout, I know about unit tests, but still, having the type system go through your code is useful as an extra check. With a sufficiently smart compiler, you'd have a fairly good analysis of the actual calls to the code to ensure type saficy.. but... 14:45:21 *_3b* couldn't find a close paren that matched "(defun draw" in that paste 14:45:21 sellout, "oops, I accidently passed on a string to this thing that accepted only an incompatible-vector", or some such. 14:45:32 tic: Yeah, but watch out for pointers ;) 14:46:02 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 14:46:12 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:46:26 <_3b> topito: fix you indentation and missing parentheses 14:46:29 sellout, {smart,auto}_ptr? no worries! 14:46:44 sellout, do you understand what I'm aiming at though? 14:47:00 ok 14:47:13 tic: Yeah, I don't see it as much of a benefit, though, and especially not in a non-strongly-typed language. 14:47:17 topito pasted "error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69296 14:47:27 thats the error i ge 14:47:29 t 14:47:30 lisppaste: stop pasting new pastes, and start annotating existing ones. 14:47:41 :D 14:47:43 bad bot! 14:47:53 tic: It's likely to be something that makes you think "I don't need tests for this". 14:48:04 Static type analysis is great, for optimization. 14:48:12 topito: you have unbalanced parenthesis in your program 14:48:12 I have C/C++ code that compiles just fine crash on me all the time though. 14:48:27 ok im checking that 14:48:45 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:48:52 is there is a shortcut or an easy way to see the unbalanced parenthesis in slime? with emacs? 14:48:52 *schme_* does not buy into the "type checking == safety" :) 14:49:05 tic: if you want to declare argument and return types, thus providing the compiler the kind of information it would have in statically-typed languages, the lisp compiler can provide similar checks (to what extent most actually do i'm not sure) 14:49:26 <_3b> topito: it should be obvious from the indentation if you let emacs indent for you 14:49:27 locklace: I think SBCL does a bit, since it does inference. 14:49:36 sellout, in an environment where errors are mostly non-fatal (most Lisps?), then sure. Hm. I guess I really need to pull out an actual example. 14:49:41 how can i let emacs indent my code? 14:49:51 locklace, yup. 14:49:58 Well try Haskell. It is a compiled language were compiled code usually works.. 14:49:59 <_3b> topito: it should do it automatically 14:50:05 topito: Well highlighting parens can help :) 14:50:08 topito: have the correct lisp mode and press tab 14:50:17 younder: I compiled a haskell program just yesterday and it crashed on me when I ran it. 14:50:19 topito: M-x check-parens 14:50:24 <_3b> topito: you might also try using paredit mode, which will add the closing paren for you automatically 14:50:28 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:50:37 how can i highlight parens? 14:50:43 thanks 14:50:53 how can i use paredit mode? 14:50:57 <_3b> topito: the missing paren is the close to the draw defun though 14:51:05 topito: you don't want to. You want to indent the code and forget the parentheses. 14:51:24 schme_: I'm not saying it can't happen. Just that this is the exception not the rule. (from my meager experience) 14:51:35 -!- Xof_ is now known as Xof 14:51:36 sellout: do you know how good the inference is? 14:51:40 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44995.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:58 Xach: ah, I see. I'll fix that soon then, thanks. 14:52:30 locklace: Nope, but some of the SBCLers around might :) 14:52:53 younder: I'm very much fond of the haskell type system, mind you. But I totally don't buy in on the idea of it making code safer :) If I did I'm sure I'd be filling my lisp code with type-checking.. which.. is kinda annoying ;) 14:53:27 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:53:41 Agreed, there are other ways to deal with this. Like agile programming 14:53:41 it's definitely a win to have good type inference, then you can arrange to have the benefits of compile-time type checks if you want them (and forget about them otherwise) 14:54:14 locklace: Agreed. 14:55:15 cool worked 14:57:58 V-ille, check mail 14:58:29 one question, in the pastelisp web site, when i paste i lisp code, i can put the mouse in a parenthesis and i can see the other parenthesis that matches with that one 14:58:35 is there is a way of doing that in emacs with slime? 14:59:02 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 14:59:08 topito: emacs does that by default 14:59:26 topito: (well, not quite - you need to put your cursor on a paren to see the other one) 14:59:27 topito: I do (paren-set-mode 'paren) and (paren-activate) and that just works. 14:59:28 my emacs doenst do that 14:59:42 ok im gonna try 14:59:44 thanks 14:59:54 <_3b> M-x show-paren-mode 14:59:59 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:17 _3b: filthy gnuism! 15:00:17 oh worked 3b 15:00:20 thanks 15:00:28 thats what i needed 15:03:08 topito: you really don't want to count parentheses, but instead rely on indentation. 15:03:14 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:03:32 but identation are the spaces , the tabs? 15:03:42 whats the relation betwen that and parenthesis? 15:03:52 <_3b> yeah, indentation was how i could tell there was a problem in your paste 15:04:20 im learning how to identate my lisp code 15:04:33 you don't have to. your editor does that automatically for you. 15:04:43 how? 15:04:48 jsnell: are you about? I have a clos optimization peculiarity, motivated by current discussion on c.l.l 15:05:02 I don't know how Emacs works, but maybe someone else can help you. 15:05:25 yeah 15:05:52 topito: at the end of each line, type C-j as opposed to RET. 15:05:53 with tab i can identate automatically but that doesnt put the parenthesis , just the spaces before each line 15:06:07 whats RET? 15:06:17 *sigh* 15:06:19 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:24 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:42 topito, maybe you should read an Emacs tutorial? 15:06:44 beach C is control , isnt it? 15:06:51 topito: tried slime yet? 15:07:01 binary codes im using slime 15:07:04 I believe someone like MicroSoft renamed it (RETURN that it) ENTER. 15:07:05 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 15:07:23 control-j makes enter 15:07:27 topico: and RET is Enter on your keyboard i guess 15:07:41 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:52 when i press control - j it makes enter 15:07:58 it doenst put the parenthesis 15:08:00 topito: C-j is LINEFEED which is not RET. In Emacs, LINEFEED often works like a combination of RET and TAB. 15:08:12 topito: use paredit for that. 15:08:15 jsnell: do you know the discussion in question? [ 74: Tamas K Papp ] "with-slots slow" 15:08:25 whats paredit? 15:08:28 beach, out of curiousity, have you mapped RET on right ctrl and C-j on the Enter key? 15:08:31 topito, google! 15:08:31 basically, "with-slots is slower than a local variable" 15:08:40 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:08:42 yeah, I read it 15:08:50 whats the difference between linefeed and enter? 15:09:09 so I thought that we had slot-value optimization when the instance was a specialized parameter of a defmethod 15:09:15 tic: No, but I have Control where capslock used to be, so C-j is very fast to type. 15:09:15 topito: you could try slime-close-all-parens-in-sexp for closing parens 15:09:33 but making a (defmethod foo3 ((instance myclass) n) ...) with the same body is much, much, slower, and conses 15:09:58 beach, ah yes, qwerty keyboard. very awkward on my keyboard to press c-j. (equivalent of C-c on yours.) 15:10:01 Xof: I also thought we did the permutation vector optimization exactly in that case 15:10:02 topito: ENTER = RET = C-m = ASCII 13, LINEFEED = C-j = ASCII 10 15:10:19 tic: ah, I see. 15:10:23 ummm 15:11:02 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 15:11:27 also, for the method, the arithmetic looks generic 15:11:49 not sure how that's happened 15:12:33 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:13:43 oh, I bet the type declaration gets lost if we do with-slots optimization 15:14:28 do we do anything useful with the type declaration on a symbol-macro? 15:14:42 I thought there was some horrible code around to do exactly that 15:14:47 ok 15:14:59 demonstrably, yes 15:15:09 with basically a type declaration on a symbol-macro being wrapped in an appropriate THE 15:15:10 is this identation fine 15:15:11 ? 15:15:23 Which? 15:15:32 topito pasted "idented" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69299 15:15:47 I agree that I remember some code to wrap declared symbol macros with THE somewhere 15:15:50 this one: http://paste.lisp.org/display/69299 15:16:22 topito, defvars are top-level constructs! 15:16:50 defvar should be up? 15:16:53 not inside that function? 15:16:57 No. 15:17:02 topito: there is never a whitespace before `)' nor after '(' 15:17:02 ok 15:17:05 topito, you should make yourself a favour and read a book on Lisp, such as Practical Common Lisp. 15:17:06 I do not understand where the declaration goes missing, but in the disassembly of the method fast function I see GENERIC-+ 15:17:20 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:28 ok sorry im gonna read , thanks for the advices 15:17:34 unless you do somethign like (let ((secret 9)) (defvar *random* secret) ) 15:17:44 topito: also, don't use IFs without else branches. 15:17:45 buahaha 15:17:57 why not beach? 15:18:07 topito: because you use WHEN for that. 15:18:12 what should i use instead of if without else branche? 15:18:14 or unless 15:18:23 oh when, ok thanks 15:18:26 (unless (test x) (dostuff ...) ) 15:18:27 topito: there is a very general rule in programming: use the most specific construct that will do the job. 15:18:43 beach, that true for SETQ too? ;) 15:18:52 nope :) 15:18:53 i see, i didnt know about when 15:18:57 thanks for the advice 15:19:01 hm, separately: why is my (declare (optimize speed)) being eaten by defmethod? 15:19:07 no problem 15:19:27 yeah, manually changing the expansion makes things fast again 15:19:46 topito: and instead of (setf (+ )) we use (incf ) 15:20:04 why? whats the difference between of setf and incf? 15:20:05 Xof: I don't see any problem with having an optimize speed declaration in the method 15:20:14 topito: and instead of (incf 1) we use (incf ) 15:20:22 topito, shorter. 15:20:27 topito: I just told you about the general rule... 15:20:30 ah ok 15:20:43 incf is increment? 15:20:44 topito: and decf for decrementing 15:20:44 ah, I bet it's due to the walker 15:20:52 ok thanks 15:20:53 topito, really, that book will answer many of your questions. 15:20:56 im gonna fix it 15:20:59 jsnell: ah, I am confusing myself thanks to the repl's not giving compilation notes 15:21:02 topito: the other thing you need to do is to look things up in the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 15:21:06 ok, im gonna beging reading it now 15:21:07 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:15 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:19 whats common lisp hyperspec? 15:21:24 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:21:31 minion: tell topito about clhs 15:21:31 topito: please see clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 15:21:46 ok, then there's just ("just") the losing type declaration issue 15:21:56 topito: It's the langauge standard. 15:21:58 how do you disassemble an individual method? 15:22:05 oh 15:22:11 like the rules? 15:22:22 the specification. 15:22:29 like the syntax and semantics, and everything else. 15:22:29 unless you've done something tricky, disassemble the return value of (sb-pcl::safe-method-fast-function ) 15:22:43 ummm 15:22:46 ok im gonna check , thanks 15:23:24 Xof: thanks. 15:24:21 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@89-172-52-150.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:24:43 hmm... there must be some magic going on 15:24:55 never a good utterance 15:25:12 (symbol-macrolet ((x 1.0)) (declare (fixnum x)) x)) ;; shows that something is inserting the THE 15:25:29 -!- joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:25:52 jsnell: that's the spec... 15:26:00 but trying to manually macroexpand X in the proper environment just returns 1.0 15:26:03 process-type-decl in ir1tran.lisp 15:26:16 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 15:27:34 jsnell: technically, that is correct 15:27:41 I'm not sure how we achieve that 15:27:49 " A type declaration of a symbol defined by symbol-macrolet is equivalent to wrapping a the expression around the expansion of that symbol, although the symbol's macro expansion is not actually affected." 15:27:50 ok. so then the reason would be that the walker does a full macroexpansion for the walker case 15:28:02 err... defmethod case 15:29:35 actually, I have no clue how we achieve that, given that I can see PROCESS-TYPE-DECL adding a variable with a THE in it 15:30:22 I must've screwed something up in that test 15:30:35 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:30:46 jsnell pasted "symbol-macro type declarations" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69301 15:31:06 but anyway, at least when the walker does the macroexpansion, the THE isn't inserted 15:31:26 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086149.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 15:31:54 does the walker handle symbol-macrolet itself? And presumably declare similarly? 15:32:01 (rather than delegate to the compiler) 15:32:53 gosh, how much one can forget in a few short months 15:33:16 yeah, the walker's walk-symbol-macrolet doesn't handle declares specially 15:33:38 it looks as though the walker's construction of (macro ...) is 15:33:41 oops 15:33:53 the non-ANSI weirdness handled in process-type-decl 15:34:14 er, strike that 15:34:28 ;; This form was a call to a macro. Maybe it expanded 15:34:28 ;; into a declare? Recurse to find out. 15:34:31 SO MUCH WRONGNESS 15:35:34 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 15:35:39 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:35:51 ok, I at least understand the wrongness now 15:36:04 disumu [n=disumu@p57A24898.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:11 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:37:56 binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.215.178] has joined #lisp 15:38:28 hi Xof 15:39:37 bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:40:48 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 15:43:35 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 15:44:33 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:31 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:46:10 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 15:47:44 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:55 -!- photon2 is now known as photon 15:47:59 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:22 "morning" 15:48:55 -!- binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.215.178] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:49:28 morning 15:49:32 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 15:51:48 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.13.228] has joined #lisp 15:52:47 morning gigamonkey 15:52:55 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.200.86] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:55:04 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 15:55:13 sidewinder128 [n=chatzill@nttkyo589168.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:56:02 -!- sidewinder128 [n=chatzill@nttkyo589168.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has left #lisp 15:58:54 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:17 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 15:59:42 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:00:23 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 16:04:10 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:04:18 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:04:34 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 16:09:04 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:07 -!- bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 16:11:57 besiria` [n=user@ppp083212084063.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 16:12:04 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 16:12:22 nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:04 -!- timor101 [n=icke@w0352.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:16 nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:22 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:17 -!- pjb [n=t@intergruas.easynet.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:18 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 16:20:19 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:03 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:24:00 -!- eut [n=keram@Macaw.cens.UCLA.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:24:41 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:24:57 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BAC4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:01 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086149.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:01 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:30:05 -!- besiria` [n=user@ppp083212084063.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:19 -!- jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:33:12 The problem with having contacts both in Vietnam and in the US is that there is important Email coming 24h a day :( 16:33:21 heh 16:34:57 fortunately, important is not the same as urgent 16:35:36 Krystof: Right now, that's the case though (please confirm this airline reservation right away). 16:35:44 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 16:35:56 Krystof: which I then have to check with my wife, who is in the other place. 16:38:08 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:38:39 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 16:38:50 ... but I think I am done for today. 16:39:05 ths_ [n=ths@p549ACDB0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:12 jsnell: oh, hey, look, nikodemus is ahead of us 16:40:29 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:41:42 yeah, by a timezone or two 16:42:19 though it would be even better to just get rid of the walker in pcl, if at all possible 16:42:33 oh yes 16:45:02 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:50:23 milanj [n=milan@79.101.181.237] has joined #lisp 16:50:46 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AD0DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:42 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-68-238-164-124.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:53:20 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 16:56:30 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:46 -!- _adeht is now known as adeht 16:58:14 central time in Austarlia is 11:30 GMT 16:58:43 -!- codeFiend [n=anton@c-71-198-85-191.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:58:43 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:58:51 -!- tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:58:53 Read the "long and painfull history of time" by Erik Nagum 16:59:02 Go away. 16:59:49 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:48 Those three years really went by quickly! 17:00:50 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler 17:00:54 -!- chandler has set mode +b %younder!*@* 17:00:57 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 17:01:09 it must have been all the fun we were having 17:01:19 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:10 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 17:02:43 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:02 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 17:04:23 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:04:28 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:05:07 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.181.237] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:05:51 lukego [n=lukegorr@72.37.205.4] has joined #lisp 17:06:31 -!- hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279440976.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 17:09:28 urgh, when did revision control systems become the cool wheel to reinvent 17:09:44 about 2 years ago 17:09:44 locklace: I've been wondering the same thing. It's getting annoying. 17:10:39 Hun: more like 6 (: 17:10:52 that's when it started to annoy me ;) 17:14:46 timor101 [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:17:02 it definitely started to annoy me about then, and now it makes me want to swallow broken glass and poleaxe my eyes out 17:17:18 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:17:39 binghe [n=binghe@219.82.137.78] has joined #lisp 17:18:24 I was thinking about what it might take to do a clbuild in CL. After poking around a bit I couldn't easily find the wire format for CVS or git or SVN. 17:18:31 (there's already a cl-darcs) 17:19:56 Xach: git has a ruby reimplementation in grit, so you could steal from that 17:20:14 I don't think anybody wants to understand the CVS wire format /-: 17:20:23 I do! 17:20:24 and I am not sure about SVN, but they use non-standard HTTP for stuff 17:20:29 you say that now 17:20:49 Ok, I don't know if I want to understand it, but I would like to learn more about it. 17:20:59 Pretty low-priority, but still interested. 17:21:00 if it's anything like the branch version number logic, I think we'll hear different tones (-: 17:22:12 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 17:22:32 -!- djkthx_ [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:23:36 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:23:53 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:24:07 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:08 Google gave me some pdf when I searched "CVS protocol". Maybe that has the relevant bits. 17:24:55 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:24:56 schme_: wow, yes. #1, too. i fail at search. 17:24:58 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:25:32 Xach: I hope it helps :) 17:25:41 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:26:19 <_8david> downloading an initial repo is uninteresting. The update of an existing repo is the key part, which is about merging stuff, handling conflicts, etc. So without a full git implementation, a git protocol implementation wouldn't be worth much, I believe. 17:27:07 <_8david> and once you've implemented all that, I'm sure the git-receive-pack documentation and/or source code won't be a major obstacle 17:27:50 Well, I don't agree that it's uninteresting. 17:27:56 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:28:21 a question for those that have tried muproc: it should be possible to nest muproc-recieve calls correct? 17:28:31 jajcloz [n=jaj@wireless-24-147.media.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:28:33 to change the behavior of the actor 17:29:32 The major issue then will be when they change how everything works :S 17:29:40 -!- binghe [n=binghe@219.82.137.78] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:29:41 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["."] 17:30:31 <_8david> right. uninteresting for the purposes of, say, clbuild. 17:30:37 <_8david> But highly interesting from a hacker's perspective, of course. And you've got to start somewhere, obviously. 17:30:58 <_8david> I'm looking forward to cl-git (or even zpb-git)! 17:31:00 _8david: yeah, i think for the current normal clbuild audience, not all that useful. 17:31:14 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47BC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:16 codeFiend [n=anton@66-7-254-75.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:51 <_8david> The "file system" aspect of git is interesting, too, of course. With a minimal git-in-common-lisp, I'm sure there are interesting projects possible that aren't even related to source code management. 17:31:58 _8david: i was thinking a little bit about the bridge between the "i don't do tarballs" people and the "i only do tarballs (or 'releases', or whatever)" people 17:32:06 vasa [n=vasa@mm-37-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 17:32:08 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:14 maybe the client program is the smallest part of that obstacle 17:32:31 _8david: oh yes, I imagine you could do very interesting things with git objects in memory 17:32:49 <_8david> Xach: well, those are invited to click the [snapshot] link on gitweb, giving them a tarball 17:33:04 <_8david> antifuchs: ? 17:33:09 I thought the main problem with clbuild was that there is no release policy with any of the software it downloads. You have to just get the latest of everything. 17:33:18 have to go, would like to discuss this later 17:33:48 <_3b> i thought that was the point of clbuild, not the problem? 17:34:09 I mean, for the people who don't like it as the current favored solution. 17:34:37 <_8david> yeah. "feature" is roughly equivalent to "problem" in most things related to software. 17:34:43 -!- younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 17:34:50 younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:35:11 -!- younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 17:35:29 younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:36:10 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:59 It definitely looks like gilberth is going to the Hamburg Lisp meeting on Wednesday. 17:38:23 (I think he needs to get out more). 17:38:30 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43] has joined #lisp 17:40:46 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:03 josemanuel [n=josemanu@87.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:41:06 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@72.37.205.4] has quit [] 17:41:44 -!- younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 17:43:21 jthing [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:44:00 -!- jthing [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 17:44:14 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 17:45:04 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:45:28 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:46:03 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 17:47:11 -!- ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:47:36 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:47:38 jthing [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:47:43 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 17:47:58 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44A11.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:49:52 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:01 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 17:50:25 So... who has gotten around to hacking up a clim spec lookup function for the slime ? 17:51:06 <_8david> no hyperdoc support in McCLIM?! 17:51:20 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:51:21 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:30 What's hyperdoc? 17:52:00 I'm in want of something like the hyperspec lookup on the C-c C-d h 17:52:18 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:52:34 |newbie| [n=kvirc@201.82.228.185] has joined #lisp 17:53:00 I'm sorry. This is where you guys go "But schme_! Just (require 'mcclim-lookup) and hit C-c C-d m" 17:53:01 <|newbie|> Any idea of where I can get the hardware specifications of a lisp machine? 17:53:35 Any specific lisp machine? 17:53:40 (and no, no idea) 17:53:48 <|newbie|> schme_: Any one would do... 17:53:52 ]]]\ 17:53:52 |newbie|: Papers about the early ones have been published at MIT. 17:53:56 sorry 17:54:03 |newbie|: http://eval.apply.googlepages.com/kmachine.htm 17:54:19 |newbie|: Look for Thomas Knight 17:54:20 |newbie|: more at http://eval.apply.googlepages.com/ 17:54:29 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc60.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 17:54:40 |newbie|: Are you building one? 17:54:49 <|newbie|> Xach: I love you <3 <3 <3 17:55:04 <_8david> cvs checkout: failed to create lock directory for `/project/slime/cvsroot/CVSROOT' (/project/slime/cvsroot/CVSROOT/#cvs.history.lock): Permission denied 17:55:23 <|newbie|> schme_: No, but my architecture project is about it 17:55:51 Oh what fun :) 17:56:03 Maybe you're interested in that there lisp CPU document too then! 17:56:55 <_8david> minion: tell schme_ about hyperdoc 17:56:56 schme_: direct your attention towards hyperdoc: Hyperdoc means mapping symbols to documentation URIs for libraries as well as the COMMON-LISP package, as is done by hyperdoc.el and co. http://www.cliki.net/hyperdoc 17:57:09 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 17:57:16 <_8david> with that, (defun clim::atdoc (name ignore) (format nil "http://l1sp.org/clim/~A" name)) or something like that should make it work 17:57:25 antgreen [n=green@74.210.97.251] has joined #lisp 17:57:26 <_8david> don't know whether the slime patch in hyperdoc is already in upstream slime 17:57:29 Oh cools. I'll check that out, thanks mate :) 17:58:20 <_8david> oops, s/atdoc/hyperdoc/ (Freudian slip) 17:58:28 -!- antgreen [n=green@74.210.97.251] has quit [Client Quit] 17:59:01 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.206.175] has joined #lisp 17:59:54 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 18:03:31 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:05:32 _8david: are you keeping your soft heap limit work up to date with SBCL's upstream? 18:05:32 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 18:06:14 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A24898.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:06:19 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.203.144] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:06:23 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:07:15 <_8david> kreuter: not really. But I'd guess that not too much changed in src/runtime anyway. Perhaps a quick git rebase would work? 18:07:37 ok 18:07:51 <_8david> The bigger issue would be that I haven't split that patch up into (a) relocation features (b) incremental allocation and (c) softlimit 18:08:08 I kinda want to try something that depends on there being a fixed top to the heap. 18:08:17 <_8david> (c) is most interesting with (b). (b) works best with (a). 18:08:19 maybe sometime soon sb-regpair will be accepted as a contrib! 18:08:46 <_8david> sb-regpair is a piece of uncommitworthy junk 18:09:13 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:09:14 <_8david> I might commit (a), (b), and/or (c) if I had a real plan for the order in which I want to commit them. 18:09:19 Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@202.88.189.5] has joined #lisp 18:09:21 dmiles_afk: hi. I commented some of your changes on the mailing list 18:09:30 _8david: but how will people ever run abcl quickly in cloak without it? 18:09:59 <_8david> Krystof: by installing an amd64 kernel like any other sensible person! :-) 18:10:15 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:10:30 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:10:44 heh 18:10:59 <_8david> kreuter: and (a) was portable once, but now I don't have access to all that hardware anymore, and can't retest. Something silly is broken with relocation on some platforms, I think. 18:11:07 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:25 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:12:05 heh 18:12:18 -!- Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@202.88.189.5] has quit [Client Quit] 18:12:39 -!- topito is now known as topito-awau 18:12:49 -!- topito-awau is now known as topito-away 18:12:50 _8david: this sounds interesting, is it in git somewhere? 18:12:54 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 18:13:07 -!- Xach has set mode -b %younder!*@* 18:13:41 <_8david> joshe: yeah, on repo.or.cz somewhere on a branch in my sbcl fork. (The first person to find out why the cold core isn't relocatable gets a beer!) 18:13:44 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*thing@*.cdi.no 18:13:54 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 18:14:05 V-ille, cool thanks .. i am testing with 1.5 now.. can you point me to the 1.6 issue email or info again? 18:14:14 just a sec.. 18:14:26 (it's on abcl project page) 18:14:51 http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=20070218045318.5111%40stephen 18:15:12 neat, I'll take a look and see if I can figure anything out 18:15:42 dmiles_afk: it should be fixed by 1.6 patchlevel 10 18:16:16 ,,which is also mentioned on abcl project page :) 18:16:40 right and i am running patch level 12.. which is why i dont understand 18:17:10 yet 1.5 runs both codebases pretty miuch the same.. 1.6-b12 needs the workarround 18:17:14 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:18:03 -!- jthing [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 18:18:27 dmiles_afk: how much of the patches are you using on 1.5? All of them? Or only some? 18:18:40 The jit may be different. 18:19:00 yeah 1.5 is little slower 150seconds becomes 200 on 1.5 18:19:23 1.6 150secs ... 1.5 200secs 18:19:36 svn versus patched? or what? 18:19:44 Ah, patched versus patched? 18:19:53 What about 1.5-patched versus 1.5-svn? 18:20:55 booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:01 1.5 = svn 180secs patch 200secs ;P 18:21:14 1.6 = svn 600secs patch 150secs ;P 18:21:23 Odd. That doesn't sound like it's that worthwhile for 1.5. 18:21:47 1.5 is faster without the patches? Oh my. 18:21:48 right .. .. i just done it 2 times each now and its staying the same 18:21:52 yeah :( 18:22:01 Back to the drawing board. :) 18:22:32 but 1.6 patch is faster then everything.. hrrm 18:22:49 but hehe .. i dont see the patch as improvemnt yet 18:23:03 No, not a true increment, no. 18:23:08 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 18:23:08 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 18:23:28 Improvement, meant to say. It would be better to try the fixes separately. 18:24:07 i am trying to find a 1.6 that runs the SVN effiecent 18:24:09 This probably needs more investigation. 18:24:54 when i 'killall -3 java' its almost always in defineClass() 18:25:38 Well, you could always try profiling the run. 18:25:44 of course the openjdk person i am talking to wants a "small testcase" 18:26:20 hey! c'mon! this is #sbcl, not #abcl. 18:26:36 Oh, right. 18:26:51 well in 600 seconds.. 400 of them are in defineClass() 18:27:07 *V-ille* thinks competition^Wother friendly implementations are in a bitter mood :) 18:27:22 Sorry to be back alive - abcl :D 18:27:48 hey, abcl activity is great. 18:27:53 does anyone even use SBCL anymore? 18:28:24 wait, abcl is usable? ;) 18:28:26 dmiles_afk: anyway, you really need a profile of the run - especially if you want to talk to some openjdk people 18:28:28 sellout: nah. 18:29:25 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:30:00 i use sbcl, but only on 64-bit systems. 18:30:00 abcl is apparently usable for certain values of usability 18:30:37 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 18:30:50 milanj [n=milan@77.46.187.158] has joined #lisp 18:32:41 r00k [n=ben@216.93.247.56] has joined #lisp 18:35:17 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:25 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:38:48 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-164.kosnet.ru] has quit ["Love, L o v e, L o v e..."] 18:39:04 -!- |newbie| is now known as bidu 18:40:17 bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has joined #lisp 18:42:17 V-ille, i am also giving last weeks 1.7 a try 18:42:54 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:32 dmiles_afk: great, I've been meaning to try 1.7 or what-ever openjdk build for quite some time, but so far haven't had the time 18:44:22 drewc: did you ever find out what was causing the clnet stuff? 18:45:49 not just the symptoms, but the original cause, that is. 18:47:03 does everybody get a mess of duplicate definition warnings when compiling Closure under SBCL? 18:47:48 kreuter: CCL? Why would you do that? 18:47:58 sellout: boo. 18:47:59 isn't that Clozure? 18:48:11 kreuter: ahhh 18:48:22 the Web browser :) 18:48:41 findall clo?ure 18:48:53 Too over loaded in my brain ... adding Clojure pushed out Closure. 18:48:54 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbba80d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:16 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has quit [] 18:49:31 *kreuter* wonders how soon it'll be before somebody resorts to Clozhure. 18:49:54 Cthusure! 18:49:57 and if we can premptively beat them to avoid it 18:49:59 *sellout* crosses that option off his list. 18:50:27 "Clogiure" might also work, for italians. 18:50:58 I think "ghoti" can be pronounced that way, too. 18:51:04 Cloure! 18:51:19 CtHluser 18:51:33 wow. Just wow. 18:51:43 shrug. lots of duplicate definitions in Closure. /me declares clbuild to have succeeded with onepointwhateverthehellwe'reabouttorelease. 18:51:51 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 18:53:53 V-ille, ran each 1.7 twice: SVN 142.758 Patch 148.218.. back to drawing board but at least 1.7 doesnt have this issue 18:54:19 So far I'm chalking it to the 1.6 performance problem department, yes. 18:55:21 oh the patch just ran in 141.934 seconds real time 18:55:34 but not worth it 18:55:38 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:56:15 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 18:56:15 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:56:19 at least we learn 1.7 is 20% faster than 1.5 18:57:01 -!- topito-away is now known as topito 18:57:16 this why abcl is so cool.. in a period of 3-6 moths it got 20% faster w/o doing anything 18:57:31 Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@202.88.189.5] has joined #lisp 18:57:39 well, the starting point was sub-optimal 18:57:40 the same happened with an old app of me. lost all its memory leaks in 2 months because a lib was fixed 18:57:44 how'd it do that? 18:57:55 casting or something iirc 18:58:00 but abcl gets "free" enhancements in various places due to jvm development 18:58:20 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:58:23 cpape` [n=user@p5484C3D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:35 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:59:31 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-37-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 19:00:47 robot_jesus [n=csanders@hoovers-241.hoovers.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:00 -!- Brucio-8 [n=Brucio-8@202.88.189.5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:30 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 19:04:11 icylisper [n=Brucio-8@202.88.189.5] has joined #lisp 19:05:01 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-170-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:35 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2D493.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:18 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C7AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:26 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9DD7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:08:28 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 19:09:16 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9DD7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:14:31 -!- cpape [n=user@p5484D567.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:14:51 Xach: ooc, what do you use on 32 bit (if anything?) 19:15:15 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2CABC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:15:21 who uses 32-bit anymore? 19:15:34 hence the `(if anything)' 19:15:39 I do! o/ 19:15:44 it just seemed a very specific statement! 19:16:01 I use 32-bit sometimes, too 19:16:20 until recently, it was a bit of a pita to use a 64-bit linux system, for the usual desktop-y kinds of things. 19:16:30 I've got 70ist 32 bit cores, so there is that 19:16:40 70ish 19:16:50 salex: on what? 19:17:05 cluster. nothing terribly exciting 19:17:08 salex: nada 19:17:22 ok V-ille, tested OpenJDK 1.6 (IcedTea) and thats what needed patch.. the Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 11.0-b15, mixed mode) is fine at the same speed of 1.7 19:17:26 salex: actually, i take that back. my ibook is 32-bit. i consider it a laptop of last resort. 19:17:26 Xach: gotcha, it was the wording that made me curious 19:17:31 heh 19:17:34 -!- l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:41 mine died, so it's not longer a last resort! 19:17:56 (the ibook, i mean) 19:18:56 V-ille, ok so i learned not to use IcedTea 1.6 no mater how new... even if it's last weks release 19:18:57 All three of the laptops sitting in front of me are entirely 32-bit. 19:19:22 dmiles_afk: maybe icedtea 1.6 doesn't have any of the perf patches that the jdk proper has? 19:19:29 Well, `entirely' is too strong a word, I guess, since two of them have x86 processors inside, which means that they're sorta kinda 32-bit kludged on top of 16-bit kludged on top of...&c. 19:19:37 could be that the for happened at a bad time 19:19:40 fork 19:20:00 V-ille, yeah they i guess work harder on the classes in the rt.jar than they do the JVM 19:20:17 or branch, to be more precise. Anyway, this is good to know, maybe it should be mentioned on our web page. 19:20:51 IcedTea is where Classpath RT project can converge on Sun's JDK.. they are trying to make them the same rt.jar.. IcedTea is the result 19:20:55 I wonder if you saved your test run results.. 19:21:23 dmiles_afk: oh yes, didn't read that carefully. I know about icedtea and its goals. 19:21:47 *chandler* wonders idly why dmiles_afk always lies about being away from his keyboard 19:21:51 or i might be talking about GlassFish.. but its something like that 19:22:32 V-ille, i been paisting them into a text file.. so i can basically put them in a table i think 19:22:35 I don't think much Classpath code goes into icedtea, the copyright assignment requirement by sun is intolerable. maybe goes to icedtea, to be replaced by openjdk code later. 19:22:44 chandler, so, for the moment, and for probably a couple years more, I still care about 32-bit machines... 19:23:22 people apparently too late came up with the reverse idea, take Classpath and fill its holes with sun-code 19:23:35 *V-ille* stops talking off-topic now 19:24:18 dmiles_afk: please send the findings to the list, if you can gather summary info and cut out the unessential portions 19:24:32 then we can debate who'll put it on the project web page 19:25:04 xunzi [n=xunzi@port-92-201-67-200.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:25:05 formatting doesn't matter at this point, if it's easily divisible 19:25:14 the html overlords can do the rest as they please 19:25:25 nostoi [n=nostoi@88.Red-83-37-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:37 -!- icylisper [n=Brucio-8@202.88.189.5] has quit ["Client Quit"] 19:25:43 -!- xunzi [n=xunzi@port-92-201-67-200.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 19:26:02 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-93.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 19:27:38 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:32:00 -!- bidu [n=kvirc@201.82.228.185] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:18 -!- booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 19:40:08 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:40:30 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 19:40:50 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:52 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 19:43:14 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0EC4.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:43:29 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 19:46:35 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:48:11 jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:32 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 19:52:55 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:54:34 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:55:18 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@152.pool85-54-94.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:58:14 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:02:30 benny [n=benny@i577A0EC4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:35 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.196.118] has joined #lisp 20:02:44 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 20:06:22 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:06:37 icylisper [n=icylispe@202.88.189.5] has joined #lisp 20:08:25 FareWell [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:38 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:08:56 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:08:57 -!- b4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:09:18 b4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:09:31 VityokOr` [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 20:11:01 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.206.175] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 20:12:44 -!- mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:21 mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has joined #lisp 20:14:21 Say I need to pass a lamda taking two arguments, but that I am using only one (custom-map (lambda (x y) (print x)) ...) How can I avoid the SBCL style-warning that Y is not used? 20:14:36 (declare (ignore y)) 20:14:58 you do that as the first form of the lambda, directly after the argument list. 20:15:06 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.252.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:15:09 hoj 20:15:15 meh, wrong frame. 20:15:19 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.252.109] has joined #lisp 20:15:45 tic: does (declare (ignore y)) do anything besides just suppressing a style warning? Are there other reasons why it's nice? 20:15:52 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:15:55 sykopomp, I do not know. 20:15:59 clhs declare 20:16:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm 20:16:07 Maybe the spec will shed some light on the matter. 20:16:10 tic: thanks 20:16:11 ths_ [n=ths@X48b5.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 20:16:40 sykopomp, one thing I can think of, is to tell the reader of the code that is, in fact, not going to be used. Documentation, if you will. 20:16:42 sykopomp, it tells the audience (be the audience machine or human) that the intent of the author was to ignore the argument. 20:16:54 l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:18:29 -!- ths [n=ths@p549ACDB0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:19:03 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 20:20:42 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 20:21:26 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 20:23:57 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:07 -!- icylisper [n=icylispe@202.88.189.5] has quit ["Client Quit"] 20:24:21 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:53 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:09 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:26:19 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@88.Red-83-37-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:27:11 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 20:31:49 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:32:44 rune [n=rune@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 20:33:00 -!- rune is now known as runen 20:33:16 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@wireless-24-147.media.mit.edu] has quit [] 20:33:50 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-0c-f6-20-8c-57.k102.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 20:33:57 is there anyway to get a free account on a lisp friendly web-server? 20:34:15 minion: tech.coop 20:34:16 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``tech.coop''. 20:34:31 runen: tech.coop is very lisp-friendly (: 20:34:45 it's even #lisp friendly ;) 20:34:47 (was hoping minion had a bit of info on them) 20:34:58 indeed. drewc runs it, and hangs out here 20:35:04 tech.coop isn't free 20:35:12 ah, yes 20:35:14 there's that 20:35:35 do you get free accounts anywhere? lisp-friendly or not? 20:36:09 i remember nearly free speech hosting for cheap including lisp 20:36:41 nearly free speech isn't worth much, if it's not at the same time free soda. 20:36:54 (if you want non-pay hosting) 20:36:59 tech.coop isn't free, but it's awesome! 20:37:03 looking at that now, guess I can afford 7CAD a month :p but just wanted something to experiment with now 20:37:21 runen: Why can't you experiment locally? 20:37:26 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:37:28 runen: why don't you just run the server yourself, if you want to experiment+? 20:37:31 ahaas: bah. 20:37:54 if you don't need a whole month, you can get a virtual server from places like amazon for $0.1/hour 20:38:05 Sure, but I want to try the application with some friends, and they're scattered all over, so :p 20:38:26 runen: run the server locally? dyndns? :P 20:38:53 (this adds up to $72/month, so not really cheap, but cheaper if you need only a few hours to experiment) 20:39:23 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 20:39:31 tech.coop also has an initial startup fee, just so you know 20:39:40 I can't remember if it was $50 or $100 20:40:25 you aren't going to get much on a `proper' server for free. And fair enough. 20:40:57 rune_ [n=rune@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 20:41:16 hm, cvs and svn are down on cl.net? 20:41:31 me pokes H4ns and drewc 20:41:43 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm89.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:42:38 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:40 O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-191-101.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 20:42:53 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:43:29 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:43:57 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fd2de770624aa7ad] has joined #lisp 20:45:14 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:36 ug [n=merlin@64.47.164.86] has joined #lisp 20:45:40 is there any builtin (string-remove string char) to return a string with all occurences of char removed? 20:45:57 remove 20:46:01 remove-if 20:46:04 remove-if-not 20:46:06 oh, that works on strings too? 20:46:07 remove* ;) 20:46:11 sorry, didn't know that :) 20:46:13 qebab: strings are vectors 20:46:17 a string's a sequence 20:46:21 Hun: vector 20:46:37 a vector is a case of a sequence 20:46:51 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has left #lisp 20:47:20 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm89.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 20:47:31 Hun: dolist doesn't work with strings but it works with other sequences 20:47:31 silenius [n=jl@e178011201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:48:05 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 20:48:05 ug: no. dolist takes a list 20:48:07 ug: Nonsense. 20:48:11 (I am suggesting the distinction might be worth keeping in mind as thinking of a string as just a case of sequence rather than a vector may lead to issues) 20:48:11 strings are sequences 20:48:15 it doesn't work on vectors either 20:48:29 Hun: I know it doesn't, that's WHY it doesn't work on strings 20:48:45 ug: I haven't a clue what point you're trying to make, then. 20:48:48 it isn't defined on sequences. why should it work? 20:48:51 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:48:53 chandler: see above in parenthesis 20:48:59 ug: which is completely irrelevnet for a function like remove-if *which takes a sequence argument* 20:49:07 dcl [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 20:49:07 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-471d8580008d160e] has joined #lisp 20:49:15 hence the definition of sequences 20:49:23 ug: There's no point there. Vectors are sequences. There is nothing wrong with thinking of a string as a sequence. 20:49:26 ug: the standard mandates that there be at least two subtypes of sequence, vector and list. dolist works with lists. that dolist works on sequences that aren't vectors is easily disproven on platforms like SBCL (: 20:49:31 dolist does not work on sequences, it works in lists. 20:49:37 (where you can have seq types that are neither list nor vector) 20:49:41 right 20:50:22 as remove-if takes a sequence, that's the proper way to think about it. 20:50:37 is there an iterator for generic sequences other than LOOP? 20:50:42 Hun: it should work because if you think of lists as sequences and you think of functions as being generalized on sequences you might think some case of a sequence that isn't a list might still work on something that works with lists which are also cases of sequences; in the specific example of dolist this is obviously not the case but we are talking about the obviously n00b qebab and how he might want to rather think of strings as vectors instead of sequences gene 20:50:44 map 20:50:45 clhs map 20:50:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map.htm 20:50:46 map 20:50:48 ah-ha 20:50:51 ty 20:51:04 *chandler* throws specbot at Hun and salex 20:51:11 yeouch 20:51:30 ug: you would only think that way if you've confused yourself about what sequences are, and how lists and vectors differ 20:51:34 ug: "vectors instead of sequences" makes no sense, because all vectors ARE sequences 20:51:49 the whole point of sequences is to abstract this away where it makes sense 20:51:56 you are trying to throw that a way 20:51:58 chandler: but not all sequences are vectors; let's not argue about rectangles now 20:52:12 am i the only one that doesn't get the point? 20:52:17 Hun: no 20:52:20 there is no point. ug is confused 20:52:44 i.e., looking at the abstraction backwards 20:52:46 I was suggesting it might be useful to keep in mind its specializing - going from the bottom up you know that your vector works as a sequence; going top down you can't prove that your sequence works as a vector or list for those times where it matters 20:53:02 right, you were. it was a bad suggestion. 20:53:31 salex: I disagree, but we are all free to opinions, thankfully 20:53:33 (because it's throwing out the purpose of the abstraction) 20:53:42 and the dolist example is silly 20:53:49 I agree the example was silly 20:53:55 this isn't my thesis or anything for crying out loud 20:53:57 :P 20:54:12 I was simply trying to make an offhand suggestion to qebab 20:55:07 well, you won't mind if people derail your attempt to confuse newbies then :P 20:55:55 certainly not - the problem is it IS confusing for newbies and I don't think either approach completely covers all bases 20:56:09 whether we look top down or bottom up, I mean 20:56:22 both is wrong 20:56:27 you have to look right through 20:57:48 -!- runen [n=rune@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:57:50 i've never seen anyone get confused by the idea that sequence oriented functions take sequences 20:57:50 I only I had known the amount of trouble I would cause, perhaps I would have tried harder to remember! ): 20:58:07 plenty of confusion by when a list or vector or whatever is appropriate 20:58:26 but projecting that elsewhere doesn't help :) 20:58:45 when is a list like a vector? whenever you want it to be 20:58:45 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:58:59 salex: ach so I think then you are confused about the target of my comment; yes sequence oriented functions take sequences; I was targeting and tried to demonstrate with dolist that not all functions which work on sequences are generalized over sequences and therefore the type of sequence may matter; thus keeping in mind a string is a vector could be helpful 20:59:00 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:59:03 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.252.109] has joined #lisp 20:59:39 no, i wasn't confused about the target. I just found it needlessly confusing attached to a discussion of things like remove-if 20:59:43 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.252.109] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:59:47 in other contexts, like dolist, sure. 21:00:15 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:38 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0E003.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:38 but bringing it into how (particularly) a newbie should think about sequences is crazy. look at the function defnition in clhs and it will tell you what sort of argument.... 21:00:41 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:19 -!- rune_ [n=rune@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:28 my goal was just to prepare for future gotcha - new users don't like hearing "all sequences are generally the same and you can do the same things on them" and then find out caveats later (sometimes when it hurts) 21:02:13 but I agree, when familiar, there is no ambiguity and if SLIME isn't clear enough while you're writing it, the hyperspec is a chord away 21:02:36 what caveats? sequence operations will work on all objects that are typep sequence. 21:02:49 *ug* facepalms 21:03:17 afiacs ug is presuming that people will necessarily make fundamental category errors 21:03:22 i haven't seen this in practice 21:03:26 maybe ug has 21:03:27 -!- codeFiend [n=anton@66-7-254-75.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [] 21:03:52 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:04:22 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C7AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:04:24 <_3b> doesn't seem like using the general term 'sequence' with the CL specific 'sequence' at the same time if productive in avoiding such errors though 21:05:40 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:07:26 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:11:01 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["frischluft"] 21:11:15 I have recently experienced this, salex, but not extensively; the dolist example is directly from when I was showing some stuff to a Java coder friend after explaining how there were many functions and macros dealing with sequences abstractly... he was confused why I demonstrated looping through a string with loop instead of dolist. Admittedly, I could have just demonstrated iterating through a list with loop too and not served to confuse him, but he was, neverth 21:11:36 should changing the HIGHEST_NORMAL_GENERATION to 1 in gencgc have an effect on the firing of finalizers? 21:12:29 ug: Why not tell him that string isn't a list? 21:13:18 ug: unfortunately, iterating through a sequence is not expressed abstractly in Common Lisp. 21:13:39 ahaas: I did, and there was much explaining branching off from that. It wasn't as transparent as he expected - whether this was my fault in order of explanation or just his expectations (from Java? probably not :P) or lack of standard I don't know 21:13:39 clhs loop 21:13:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 21:13:39 tcr: what is "map" if not iterating through a sequence? 21:13:49 my point was that it was not what he expected as a new "user" 21:14:03 and I am willing to take the blame as a bad teacher, too 21:14:03 :P 21:14:31 chandler: It's one particular form of iteration. 21:14:51 ug: I think you caused that problem by using "dolist" and "loop" as functions/sequences dealing with sequences abstractly. They are not. 21:15:17 you could have abstracted the iteration as "map" 21:15:33 surely; as I said, I accept I could have been a bad teacher ;) 21:15:37 or shown how loop can handle lists and vectors (*not* sequences) differently 21:15:43 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:49 and noted that there are some macros for particular tasks, like dolist 21:15:51 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 21:16:38 anyway, I can understand how this may have confused that person in the way you describe. It's not a confusion I've found newbies to construct for themselves, hence not something to guard against pre-emptively 21:16:40 I do think from a Java programmer's point of view (and even from some Lispers point of view) it's a bug that there's no looping construct that loops over a generalized sequence. So probably your best bet is just to admit that that's a bit of a hole in the language. 21:17:08 But no need to complicate the discussion of what a sequence *is*. 21:17:09 If only the designers of Lisp had provided us with some way to add new constructs to the language! 21:17:24 chandler: that's crazy talk! 21:17:27 chandler: that's always a gotcha :< 21:17:32 Then, Shirley, Lisp would be just as complete as Java. 21:17:34 i know. write a compiler! 21:17:49 yeah. Just implement your own object system with arrays and GOTOs 21:17:54 while you're at it 21:17:54 >_> 21:17:57 yet again 21:18:03 hehe 21:18:04 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:05 chandler: LOOP* ? 21:18:05 gigamonkey: right. there are issues in how the function on the abstraction of sequence was handled, but that doesn't fundamentally change the abstraction 21:18:11 can't you actually do this using CLOS? 21:18:21 gigamonkey: I was thinking LOOP-DWIM 21:18:21 or, y'know, use SBCL. 21:18:23 probably has been done. 21:18:29 it's a useful abstraction, even if the standard doesn't have every functionality you might want :) 21:18:53 chandler: you mean it would have competing non-compatable libraries? 21:19:09 salex: That's a good thing or a bad thing? I always forget. 21:19:10 hehe 21:19:13 iterators were unexpected to me. 21:19:23 their behavior, that is. 21:20:05 can anyone clarify for me the semantics of CONDITION-WAIT in bordeaux-threads? it takes condition-variable and a lock, what is the difference? 21:20:26 chandler: likewise! 21:20:48 fusss: I believe it acts like pthread_cond_wait, does it not? 21:20:55 posix pthread_cond_wait 21:20:56 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xsh/pthread_cond_wait.html 21:20:58 let's say I wanna create a mail-slot, a queue where each thread can consume it's incoming "messages" from (i.e. I wanna organize my threads into data sources and sinks 21:21:18 oh! 21:21:47 wasn't looking forward to C manpages :-P 21:21:58 fusss: You may want to look at cl-muproc. 21:21:59 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:02 been awake 28 hours 21:22:33 go to bed 21:22:33 let me rephrase the question into an architecture question .. if I may 21:22:47 much debugging has to be done first, hear me out :-P 21:22:51 fusss: Did the B-T docs not answer your question, or did you not see them? 21:22:59 answer: your architecture will be more sound after sleep :P 21:23:12 sellout: they're way too terse, i just wanna know if I even need a lock 21:23:12 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:23:15 you seriously 21:23:30 it's bizzare how some problem can be 100x easier when you have slept 21:23:31 gaaah, pansies 21:23:37 you don't realize at the time 21:23:51 fusss: Yes, you need to be holding the lock 21:24:15 let's just say, you know, i know a guy who knows a guy who is a liiiiiiittle obsessive compulsive about stuff, you know, code. 21:24:38 fusss: Which is released until condition-notify is called on the same condition-variable, then the lock is re-acquired. 21:24:42 I have two different locks 21:25:01 this is where I got things messed up 21:25:10 vixey: It is not necessarily easy to grasp what the lock argument is for on a condition-wait until you need it. 21:25:35 -!- fe[nl]ix changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . common-lisp.net back in service, please email problems to admin@common-lisp.net. New: series 2.2.10, trivial-garbage 0.17, usocket 0.4.0, ABCL 0.0.11 21:25:37 fusss: If you're just trying to make a mailbox system, you might want to use cl-muproc, which uses bordeaux-threads under the hood. 21:25:51 i'm taking locks on write only, reads are unlocked and return whatever in the queue or nil if empty. i should be safe right? 21:26:36 i thought cl-muproc was a file in bordeaux, didn't know it was a library/project. googling ... 21:27:12 holly smoke! 21:27:12 minion: cl-muproc? 21:27:13 cl-muproc: CL-MUPROC is "a Common Lisp library which strives to offer some of the multiprocessing abstractions found in the Erlang programming language". http://www.cliki.net/cl-muproc 21:27:19 i have just been beat to a project 21:27:27 I'm implementing "Actors" in CL, LOL! 21:28:02 precisely because i wanted erlang style multiprocessing (without having all the aprior knowledge about hacking such a system ;-) 21:28:55 cliki is starting to feel like CPAN :-S 21:29:26 cgo [n=cgoellne@adsl-065-007-140-208.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:45 fusss: have you tried erlang-in-lisp ? 21:29:58 Luke's? no 21:30:06 fusss: I guess that means the detractors will have to find something else to whine about. 21:30:21 Doesn't rvirding (one of the original Erlang implementors) hang out here from time to time. 21:30:28 fusss: more like Faré's 21:30:28 (I may have the nick wrong.) 21:30:30 kreuter: not fair, more specs less libs! 21:30:38 boston lisp meeting is in 30 minutes at MIT 32-124 21:30:41 see you there! 21:31:01 oh boy! 21:31:21 my e-i-l isn't that good at this time. planning to work on it again in december. 21:31:30 kreuter, still same count? 21:32:07 one guy emailed an hour ago. 21:32:54 is anyone using sblc+swank and connecting to a remote lisp? is there a trick to keeping sbcl from going to 100% cpu when you disconnect? 21:33:28 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:33:59 -!- dcl is now known as spiderbyte 21:34:03 I've been searching google but found only one hit and the suggested fix is to a function that isn't in latest version of slime 21:34:12 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:42 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:10 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 21:42:26 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:42:50 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:20 let's just say, you know, i know a guy who knows a guy ... 21:43:47 that's funny, I know a guy who knows a guy who spends an awful lot of time rewritting crap he produced while sleepy ;) 21:44:00 heh 21:44:12 know yourself (-: 21:44:50 there comes a point when a flash game is just as good as sleep. M-x zombie-mode 21:44:56 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:45:03 otoh, you can spread the damage around a bit 21:45:35 i've seen comments like ;; hairy ... don't you dare touch this without afull nights sleep 21:45:36 yeah, submit patches to other people 21:46:55 zombie mode is ok for by-the-numbers stuff. new ideas, not so much 21:47:26 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:45 anyway, bbl 21:47:47 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:48:06 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 21:50:37 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@87.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 21:51:45 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fd2de770624aa7ad] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:51:55 -!- cgo [n=cgoellne@adsl-065-007-140-208.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 21:55:53 codeFiend [n=anton@66-7-254-75.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:18 is there any particular reason why a glut window would open and display a test program just fine and then i close it, dont even change anything and run it again only to be greeted by a frame that is empty? 21:59:07 is this under X? 21:59:39 yes, ubuntu 8.04 21:59:48 sbcl 22:00:03 the X connection is probably not being shut down properly 22:00:38 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-111-12-126.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 22:00:44 try to shut it down properly, instead of just clicking on the X 22:00:47 thypan [n=user@e177225199.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:01:06 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:01:22 (glut:destroy-current-window) ? 22:01:35 "When I do X and then click the X my X connection seems busted." 22:01:46 Hmmm, great that we've managed to overload a single letter so badly. 22:01:49 yes, and make sure your lisp app isn't holding on to any sockets 22:02:16 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:20 gigamonkey: that's how exactly how to wreck a nice beach 22:02:33 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:50 we come with a builtin Earley parser 22:03:11 if if then then else else 22:03:35 there you go, a metacircular conditional 22:03:36 sorry for the noobishness (does that word exist yet?), but where can i check for the sockets lisp holds on to, and if necessary kill the connection? 22:03:51 gigamonkey: also, X comes with an X cursor (: 22:04:12 If someone has got some time handy, I'd appreciate if they could write some answers to some questions that are frequently asked here: Like "What IDE?", "What's the difference between :foo, #:foo in DEFPACKAGE forms", and something that explains Lisp's call-by-object-reference evaluation strategy. 22:04:21 xreyes_: if it's just a test application, the author probably forgot an "unwind-protect" somewhere 22:04:54 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-92-220.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 22:05:18 so it can be added to gigamonkey's Lisp FAQ which got wikinized. 22:05:32 xreyes_: 99% of the time, the gl bindings mirror the C versions directly, you can benefit from following a C book on opengl as you go 22:05:54 where's the faq? 22:06:53 At the moment, http://genos.mus.br/lispfaq/; you could also publish a draft on your blog first. 22:07:00 i've got that here and am following it, i'm trying to learn emacs, cl and opengl in one go, its a big chunk to bite off but should be ok after the initial humps and bumps 22:07:34 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:48 xreyes_: if you have slime installed, i can pretty much tell you the 5 commands you need to start hacking. the rest you can reach from the menus. 22:07:51 -!- rpg is now known as rpg|away 22:08:02 tcr, was that towards me? 22:08:09 tcr, e.g. publish a draft? 22:08:17 tic: the whole rom, i think 22:09:03 tcr: would you consider "how do I convert C++/Java/C# class to CLOS class a FAQ?" 22:09:04 publish a draft on blog.. why not edit the wiki page and mark it draft? oh well. *Zzzz* 22:09:17 i've set up slime and all from the repos the other day and have been reading learning emacs, lnostdal was helpful getting everything in place since the ubuntu packages were either outdated or causing problems 22:09:25 tic: Yeah, but to anyone else who feels like it, too. I'd surely take a look at such a draft. 22:09:40 no unwind in sight, i'll go and have a look at PCL for an explanation of that, forgot what that does since i read about it in the book 22:09:49 does wiki have discussion pages? 22:09:57 xreyes_: do you know Meta control and how to press basic keychords? 22:10:07 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Must work on book."] 22:10:25 tic: It may serve as a motivation factor if you publish it through your blog first. 22:10:27 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-111-12-126.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 22:10:29 xreyes_: unwind-protect is our cleanup form. 22:10:51 tic: Also, with a blog post, it's clear where comments are supposed to go to 22:10:53 meta and in M-x, C-x C-f and the like? 22:10:57 >as in 22:11:14 fusss: I'd blog about it first, so we can all take a look at it and provide comments. 22:11:39 tcr: i don't have a log 22:11:44 sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-111-12-126.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 22:11:49 xreyes_: yes, then you good to go. 22:11:50 with this blog thing there is no point for it to be a wiki 22:12:05 fusss: I must say that I feel icky about the title; I don't think it's a good idea to try to tackle CLOS from a java/c++ point of view. 22:12:31 Open emacs. You can "open" any file you need from the menu, but it's better to look up the keychord for that important function. 22:12:56 stassats: Sure, there is: scrutiny, and publicity. 22:12:57 xreyes_: for Lisp hacking you need how to tell slime to interpret a given buffer as lisp code. M-x slime-mode 22:13:17 xreyes_: how to split your screen into two, so you can run lisp in the bottom and your editing buffer at the top. 22:13:23 stassats: (and the wiki is important for centrality) 22:13:29 tcr: wiki means quick 22:13:41 i've got the repl on the bottom and my code on top 22:14:13 C-x-2 splits your screen. You can move between two with C-x-o, it will cycle. once you're in the bottom buffer, you can do M-x slime, and it will start slime for you. 22:14:40 xreyes_: are you able to evaluate your code in the editing buffer and have it sent to lisp? 22:14:52 yes 22:15:13 after that, i would leave you with M-x apropos 22:15:24 stassats: Feel free to write to the wiki directly. I've mixed feeling if newbies try to come up with canonical answers to questions. 22:15:30 M-x TAB actually shows you all available commands, it's command completion 22:15:56 type the first characters, or guess names with aparopos 22:15:57 tcr: i fully understand your concerns 22:16:03 stassats: Hence my pledge for the indirection through the blogosphere. 22:16:24 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6d266f3a1493445f] has joined #lisp 22:16:33 thanks a lot 22:16:35 xreyes_: always make sure your editing buffer says "slime". I used to hack in emacs-lisp interaction mode when I was a noob. no wonder CLOS didn't work ;-) 22:17:21 tcr: i run into the call/pass-by-* stuff quite recently on cll. http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/bc90d465523a4dd6 explains it nicely, i think. 22:17:50 olejorgenb [i=bronner@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 22:17:59 no worries, got that one figured, i did a fair amount of rtfm, its just the little things that one reads over or are ommited that are a bugger 22:18:30 and there is usually many roads to rome in the lisp world it seems 22:19:06 how can I retrive a list of all keys/values in a hash-table? 22:19:08 Jarv2 [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:19:47 always when beginning with a language making sense out of the debugger output is the real pain since no-one deems that worth writing a book about 22:19:52 olejorgenb: alexandria:hash-table-values 22:20:09 so no standard way then? 22:20:25 -!- VityokOr` [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:20:28 olejorgenb: loop, maphash 22:20:36 VityokOr` [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 22:20:46 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:03 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:19 ah, maphash will do, thanks 22:21:36 should've read the docs more carefully 22:21:49 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:22:44 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0EC4.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:23:05 it's hard to remember all 978 symbols in CL 22:23:22 -!- thypan [n=user@e177225199.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 22:23:53 should be a piece of cake for the chinese and japanese then 22:27:18 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-93.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 22:29:50 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:29:57 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 22:32:47 alkhdgsa [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:34:27 -!- Jarvellis [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:35:05 -!- alkhdgsa is now known as Jarvellis 22:35:14 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:35:49 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6d266f3a1493445f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:41:03 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-121-234.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:41:44 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:48 I don't mind spam so much, but I am into reverse engineering and view it as a great way to get new samples 22:42:35 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 22:42:40 -!- sellout [n=greg@dhcp-18-111-12-126.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [] 22:44:34 i collect the most outrageous subject lines in a special folder, i'll show them to my grandchildren in 40 years and tell them what pop and smtp were and how they cost the world billions 22:46:29 "Simple mail they said! Ha! Nothing simple about BIAGRA and KIALIS" 22:46:31 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279440976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:47:09 gloaming [n=steve@c-76-113-7-71.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:36 ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 22:48:25 of all the things on the net that need fixing i think email would be my personal #1 22:49:24 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:49:52 the day an email costs even a 10th of an sms to someone who does not have you on their accepted sender list we will be spam free 22:50:41 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.187.158] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:51:23 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:52:19 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BAC4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:52:47 -!- Jarv2 [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Success] 22:52:48 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-0c-f6-20-8c-57.k102.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:54:30 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 22:54:49 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:23 hm, it's not a reader macro for hash-tables I suppose? 22:56:33 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:58:26 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-111-80.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:01:15 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:01:35 olejorgenb: the last two DEFUNs in http://repo.or.cz/w/iolib.git?a=blob;f=net.sockets/common.lisp;h=236f5c8a76f5d2a6d5d03a7af94a4c26a916aebc;hb=4b15e8c8a2ef6f38c7b3782d25d690ba0110adfd 23:01:56 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:34 fe[nl]ix: thanks 23:07:21 dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:08:17 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:33 -!- Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:12:36 Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:13 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:15:41 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-92-220.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:18:38 -!- codeFiend [n=anton@66-7-254-75.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:22:58 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 23:26:23 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 23:26:47 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:26:53 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:15 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 23:28:28 dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:32:33 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:44 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:04 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:34:17 matthew` [n=user@CPE-124-178-235-43.static.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:35:36 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:48:14 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:58 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 23:54:25 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:56:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:56:08 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44DCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:10 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:57:20 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 23:59:04 schme_: though this was no doubt hours ago, I wrote a clim symbol lookup thing for emacs, probably before slime existed 23:59:37 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"]