00:00:56 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 00:03:29 -!- brat239 [n=none@p54ABD0F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:45 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AE8E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:04:49 jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:05:26 hello, what is a good CommonLisp implementation for Mac? 00:05:37 ths [n=ths@X65f3.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:06:41 I suppose many use Closure Common Lisp, though I don't know much about it. 00:06:43 nyef, that's just a problem with insert-parentheses, not with indentation. I hacked insert-parentheses eight years ago to get rid of that problem 00:09:44 azuk`: Yeah, it's just a minor bother. It crops up rarely enough that I couldn't be bothered doing anything about it. 00:14:19 jauaor: intel or ppc? 00:14:40 nyef, it's horrible but it's here if you want it. it's based on insert-parentheses back then, i.e. no support for regions etc. 00:14:53 -!- azuk` is now known as azuk 00:15:53 jfm3: intel 00:16:43 jauaor: Try 'sudo port install sbcl' 00:16:56 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:06 jfm3: ah, yeah, just noticed it's there in ports 00:18:45 Note I have never used MacOS in my life, just quoting documentation at you, and recommending SBCL. 00:19:36 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:19:39 I still say that the best MacOS was System 6.0.7. 00:20:07 brat239 [n=none@p54ABD0F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:30 Clozure CL is the one most adapted to the Mac. sbcl is the standard for free/open CL's otherwise 00:20:52 Clozure CL at this point runs only on PPC Macs. There is an intel port in alpha test. 00:21:05 jfm3: I think it's out of alpha test 00:21:15 because I've run CCL on my Intel Mac 00:21:17 jauaor: Clozure gives you a .dmg with a built-in editor (but you can use emacs if you want. 00:21:36 jfm3: Yeah, both 64 and 32 bit are fine on Intel for CCL. 00:21:45 jfm3: The only alpha bit now is Windows support. 00:21:54 sellout: ooh .. awesome 00:22:00 -!- l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:11 l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:22:12 i couldn't get ccl running on my mac. maybe it was during some transition period of brokenness. 00:22:13 jfm3: Also, on Linux just fine too. 00:22:15 I am going to check that one 00:22:18 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:28 disclosure: I work for Clozure. 00:22:29 I'm sorry, you're all quite right, I got it very wrong. It's the windows port that's still happening. 00:22:29 -!- sad0ur_ [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:22:38 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 00:22:57 Yeah, and you won't hire me, you bum! ;) 00:23:02 lemonodor: try again right now. it's working on a up-to-date Leopard Intel Mac for me 00:23:11 lemonodor: Hopefully. Let me (or openmcl-devel is even better) know if anything's not good. 00:23:50 "A complete, mature foreign function interface. This includes a powerful bridge to Objective-C and Cocoa on Mac OS X." 00:23:54 great! 00:24:05 *jauaor* gets it 00:24:19 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:24:22 sellout: oh, awesome 00:24:33 sellout: so, good support for intel based macs? 00:24:48 jauaor: Yes, totally. 00:24:55 *jauaor* fetches 00:28:50 jauaor: There's also a #ccl which might get you faster responses if rme or I aren't around in here. 00:29:03 sellout: awesome!, thanks! 00:29:42 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:45 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-28-223.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:30:05 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:30:22 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 00:33:20 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:34:16 When I export a function or macro like (export xxx) one by one manually after defining a package with export clause, I get a warning from a compiler like "'package-name' also exports the following symbols:". (The warned exported symbols are the ones I tried to export manually.) Could anybody tell me why I get the warning? I read the manual but could not find how I can solve this. 00:36:28 -!- spiderbyte is now known as break-mode 00:38:19 tomoyuki28jp: can you paste an example with http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp ? 00:39:01 jfm3: yes, of cource. wait a min plz. 00:40:19 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:41:11 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.45.135] has joined #lisp 00:42:07 tomoyuki28jp: you do not export functions or macros, only symbols 00:42:46 jfm3: http://paste.lisp.org/display/68962 00:44:11 tomoyuki28jp: you will get that warning whenever you re-evaluate a defpackage form after having manually exported symbols in sbcl. 00:44:40 drewc: Oh, really? Then the pasted code has no problem, you think? 00:45:36 tomoyuki28jp: well, not really a problem .. but why not put the other sybmols in the export list s well? 00:45:49 the consequences are undefined, that's why SBCL warns. 00:45:50 ths_ [n=ths@X4da4.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:46:00 oh are they? 00:46:06 your export list doesn't correspond to what the package actually exports. 00:46:40 the warning is triggered when you evaluate a defpackage form that doesn't correspond to the current state of the package. 00:46:45 drewc: Because I want to define few macros by a macro and I want to export the macros. 00:46:57 tomoyuki28jp: you export symbols, not macros. 00:47:05 tomoyuki28jp: that makes no sense 00:47:44 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:47:45 Yeah, I think EXPORT is not doing what you think it does. The warnings make perfect sense to me. 00:48:25 tomoyuki28jp: you need the complete idiots guide to packages : www.flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf 00:48:47 clhs compile-file 00:48:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp_fi.htm 00:48:49 Yeah, that's a good PDF. It helped me understand the obscure details. 00:49:28 drewc: Thanks for the pdf. I will take a look at it. 00:51:47 brb 00:51:59 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-28-223.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:57:56 -!- ths [n=ths@X65f3.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:51 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 00:59:22 that reminds me i need to post the story of ron garret hiring me. 01:00:03 ... 01:00:07 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:00:11 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:43 is that story as odd as it sounds? 01:01:04 that story is still in progress! (there's really not much to it) 01:02:35 ok 01:03:41 i saw him post to a mailing list mentioning an algorithm i'd been working with, so i asked him about it. and now i get paid to work with it. 01:03:57 ron: "feel free to use lisp!" me: "eh." 01:04:46 -!- adeht is now known as _death 01:05:08 is there a page that shows the status of the last soc projects ? 01:05:26 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 01:06:52 LiamH [n=nobody@138.88.126.7] has joined #lisp 01:07:19 -!- brat239 [n=none@p54ABD0F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:12:50 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:54 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 01:14:33 hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:56 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-7.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has left #lisp 01:16:48 *rvirding* good night everyone 01:17:00 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 01:17:36 sunwukong [n=salvi@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 01:17:47 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-f61f843cfc2440a7] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:21:40 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:21:48 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:23:05 kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:40 -!- booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:24:04 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:36:41 Facedown [n=HELLO@c-69-140-211-205.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:15 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:37:48 is it common to use lisp for simple programs that require medium to heavy text manipulative methods ( such as regex in perl ) ? 01:38:29 Facedown: such as ... ? 01:38:31 Facedown, I've done so, at least 01:39:10 such as a program that takes some input and corrects / replaces words 01:39:26 semanticpc [n=praveen@wifi-roaming-170-61.nss.udel.edu] has joined #lisp 01:39:36 sorry if i'm being too general 01:39:38 yeah 01:39:39 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:44 I mean 01:39:48 or you mean 01:39:50 parsing? 01:39:53 yes 01:39:55 text parsing 01:39:58 right 01:40:06 yeah, I think lisp is very suitable for it 01:40:22 minion: tell Facedown about cl-ppcre 01:40:23 Facedown: please see cl-ppcre: CL-PPCRE is a portable, Perl-compatible regular expression library by Edi Weitz. http://www.cliki.net/cl-ppcre 01:40:32 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:08 how do people usually maketheir lisp programs available, for use by others? 01:41:15 minion - ill take a look at that 01:42:27 splittist [n=splittis@125.214.249.195] has joined #lisp 01:42:35 morning 01:44:24 Facedown: by publishing a repo 01:46:27 does that mean compile? where can i learn about this? 01:47:23 minion: tell facedown about pcl 01:47:24 facedown: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 01:47:39 lol, dead tree form. 01:48:08 Facedown: http://xach.livejournal.com/188527.html 01:49:31 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:52 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has joined #lisp 01:50:28 O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-190-31.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 01:51:19 with respect to Jasko, I will never recommend that anyone use Eclipse for anything 01:51:40 Eclipse is funny. 01:51:52 IPmonger [n=ipmonger@c-68-36-20-248.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:12 -!- IPmonger [n=ipmonger@c-68-36-20-248.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:58:30 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:01:21 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:29 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:16 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:09:09 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:09:13 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 02:10:46 cnwesleywang [n=lovelili@218.26.100.194] has joined #lisp 02:12:32 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:07 -!- semanticpc [n=praveen@wifi-roaming-170-61.nss.udel.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:13:36 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:14:12 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:14:37 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:18:03 'Not connected. Use M-x slime' to start a Lisp 02:18:05 uhh 02:18:28 -!- break-mode is now known as spiderbyte 02:18:31 Now I'm familiar with C-[character] where C = Control, wtf is M? do i type this literally? 02:18:44 M = meta, which is often "alt" 02:19:13 (often mapped to) 02:19:43 guess i should never abort 02:19:49 that kicks me way out heh 02:19:56 SLIME is pretty confusing so far 02:19:59 huh? 02:20:16 well, a few minutes with the standard emacs tutorial might help with the basics 02:20:19 if you type an invalid expression on the CL-USER SLIME thing, it'll throw a prompt 02:20:27 "C-h t" for the tutorial 02:20:37 I'm used to vim, heh 02:20:44 oh, aborting from the debugger 02:21:07 *BrianRice* pays attention elsewhere 02:21:48 yeah i'll do the emacs tutorial - this is pretty weird but not harder than vim ;) 02:22:04 i've heard lots of appraisal for emacs, curious about it too in addition to Lisp 02:28:40 -!- _death is now known as adeht 02:30:15 sudoer [n=jtoy@121.32.45.111] has joined #lisp 02:35:27 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 02:37:24 impulse32_ [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:37:49 <``Erik> emacs has 'viper' mode to do vim bindings... tic is working on something called "limp" which is slime like capabilities for vim 02:38:23 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.45.135] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:43 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 02:38:48 Facedown: What do the cognoscent value Emacs at? ;) 02:46:44 Facedown: it doesn't matter .. it's the auction price that everybody will talk about. 02:47:06 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has quit [] 02:47:12 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 02:47:28 err, that was to S11001001, but related to what Facedown said... yeah. 02:48:56 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:11 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:53:47 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:54:27 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:05 wow good things have been happening with slime and clozurecl :) 02:57:31 za 02:57:47 oopxs 02:58:06 :wq 02:59:07 lukego: you seem to be having lots of fun foncing on the XO 02:59:08 dcl [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 02:59:20 yes fun is definitely the theme :) 02:59:31 geneva? 02:59:43 Not quite yet - HK til the end of the week. 03:00:06 "foncing"? 03:04:01 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:04:24 -!- dcl is now known as spiderbyte 03:08:26 jfm3: hacking with pretensions :) 03:09:32 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:16:08 I heard rumour of a David Moon paper with a title like "GC: Just don't do it". anyone know if/where? 03:26:57 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@138.88.126.7] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:31:15 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:17 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:42:29 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-59.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:43:46 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:51 binghe [n=chatzill@60.12.227.4] has joined #lisp 03:44:20 I did read the pdf drewc told me. 03:44:24 pkhuong: So I cannot export each symbol manually like (export 'each-symbol) after defining a package with export clause? > the warning is triggered when you evaluate a defpackage form that doesn't correspond to the current state of the package. 03:44:49 clhs defpackage 03:44:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 03:45:37 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 03:45:43 "If the new definition is at variance with the current state of that package, the consequences are undefined" 03:45:50 Ferrari_308_GTS [n=algidus@88-149-208-91.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:47:26 -!- housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:47:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-1.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:48:07 housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 03:48:49 drewc: Thanks a lot for your help, it helps me a lot. 03:49:34 tomoyuki28jp: glad i could be of assistance :). 03:49:49 :) 03:51:54 drewc: So the only way to avoid the warning is put all the export symbol in the export form of defpackage, correct? I have seen few codes who does export symbols manually though. 03:52:44 semanticpc [n=praveen@c-69-253-237-19.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:14 pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:14 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@10.pool85-49-183.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:54:24 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:01 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:58:17 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:59:05 tomoyuki28jp: i have seen that as well, and actually i do it. The warning will only happen if the defpackage form is re-evaluated. 03:59:59 -!- lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-59.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:01:31 drewc: I see. Thanks! 04:02:02 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 04:03:21 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:39 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 04:04:46 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:05:35 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:41 Wizard_ [n=wizard@90.150.214.198] has joined #lisp 04:07:24 re 04:07:53 How I can install mod_lisp on Fedora? And how can I make it work with SBCL? 04:08:28 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:09:20 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:10:56 I've just installed mod_lisp. It requries to definening some port of Lisp process. What is it? 04:10:56 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@10.pool85-49-183.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 04:11:24 And how can I make SBCL to work as network daemon? 04:11:47 May be UNIX sockets... I don't know 04:14:01 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 04:14:33 Wizard_: Have you looked at the SBCL manual at all? 04:15:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:36 Wizard_: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Networking.html#Networking 04:19:41 jfm3, Hmm... I want to use LISP in web developing. And now I get the problem with SBCL and Apache. Should I write my own HTTP server? 04:20:22 Wizard_: There are already a bunch. Hunchentoot comes to mind. 04:20:30 Wizard_: Research Hunchetoot, UCW. 04:20:35 Wizard_: the easiest way to start is either with araneida or hunchentoot 04:20:57 they work without apache as well 04:20:59 z0d: let's not teach new people about Araneida ;) 04:21:05 so you can try them out without much configuration 04:22:21 Is there any way to work with Apache without Hunchentoot? 04:22:24 Wizard_: Have you seen the "reddit clone series" from lispcast.com? 04:25:28 Wizard_: apache can serve as a front-end for any Lisp web-server 04:26:56 Wizard_: generally I just start with hunchentoot balls out on port 80 and worry about putting it behind apache later 04:27:34 -!- semanticpc [n=praveen@c-69-253-237-19.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:28:04 z0d, like nginx does... What for we can use mod_lisp so? 04:29:40 It is very strange that Apache couldn't serve LISP programmes in native way 04:30:56 I'm Russian, so my English is very bad. Sorry... 04:32:10 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 04:32:44 jfm3, thanks for the link. it is very useful... 04:34:43 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:38:13 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:38:56 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:39:04 Ok, let's start with Hunchentoot 04:39:17 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:41:13 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 04:41:16 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:41:17 What you can say about Uncommon Web? 04:41:39 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:41 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:41 -!- spiderbyte is now known as away-mode 04:46:45 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 04:51:21 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:51:35 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A056E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:53:02 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:50 *yawn* 04:57:04 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46ED0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:25 benny [n=benny@i577A11A6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:57:34 -!- pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:18 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:01:19 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:03:36 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 05:07:10 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 05:07:20 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:07:58 -!- Maghnus [n=Maghnus@68-190-147-184.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:08:54 Maghnus [n=Maghnus@68-190-147-184.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:09:38 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:13:16 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4747A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:14:49 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:15:17 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:15:26 evening 05:16:38 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:20:06 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:11 morning 05:21:23 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-158-10.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:22:31 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:22:50 JoshJ [n=JoshJ@r38h107.res.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 05:23:49 Hrm, so I'm doing some rudimentary logic programming in lisp; and I see "for all" is "every" in lisp, and "there exists" is "some" in lisp, but i can't seem to find anything that works for "there exists exactly one" 05:23:57 am i missing something, or do I have to make my own? 05:24:19 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 05:25:14 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-37.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:27:27 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["restart"] 05:27:56 JoshJ, which logic programming environment are you using? 05:27:58 _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 05:28:09 um... common lisp 05:28:26 -!- away-mode is now known as spiderbyte 05:28:27 there's no library or framework or anything like that involved 05:28:48 just the standard and, or, not stuff... i've already written my own implies, iff, and so forth 05:28:50 <_CitizenKane_> what does an ampersand before an argument indicate in common lisp? 05:28:58 good morning 05:29:15 JoshJ: you can use COUNT and compare it to 1 05:29:17 clhs count 05:29:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_countc.htm 05:29:22 JoshJ maybe you should look into prolog 05:29:31 there is a every and forall 05:29:50 _CitizenKane_: nothing particular, but symbols that start with ampersand are part of parameter lists (also known as lambda lists). 05:30:08 younder, the problem is i need "there exists exactly one" as well as "there exists" and "for all" 05:30:30 ok 05:30:33 JoshJ: like I told you, use COUNT. 05:30:33 beach, hrm, the problem is that "some" simply returns true or false 05:30:47 JoshJ: (= 1 (count thing list)) 05:30:57 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:31:09 count is inefficent 05:31:25 better to check for CDR 05:31:29 younder: please think before you speak. 05:32:39 younder: you *could* do it slightly more efficiently, but in the worst case, you still have to go through the list. 05:32:51 younder: you could stop when you find a second element. 05:33:06 if (and a (cdr a)) ... 05:33:24 younder: what is that supposed to do? 05:33:32 car and cdr return nil in CL 05:33:44 if you cant find it 05:33:52 younder: and how is that related to the problem that was posed? 05:34:04 at leat one element in list 05:34:08 least 05:34:13 *exactly* one 05:34:59 if (and a (not (cdr a))) ... 05:35:02 then 05:35:16 younder: you speak nonsense 05:35:43 <_CitizenKane_> beach: thanks, found a good resource for what I was looking for, lisp just doesn't click for me ;) 05:36:22 This is not scheeme 05:37:07 beach, this is returning zero on the call (thereexists! x (> x 5) where domain is a simple list of the integers (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) 05:37:12 (defmacro thereexists! (var expression) 05:37:12 `(count #'(lambda (,var) ,expression) (domain))) 05:38:03 you don't get a exception when going beyond the limit of a list (car nil) = nil 05:38:13 JoshJ: for arbitrary predicates, use count-if. 05:38:28 gonzojive_ [n=red@c-24-5-14-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:35 ah 05:38:39 that's still not working 05:38:53 Am I the only one that can't make sense of what younder is saying? 05:39:02 JoshJ: then you are doing something else wrong. 05:39:09 clearly :) 05:39:28 younder: and if your list is '(nil) ? 05:39:36 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:40 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:41 beach: absolutely not. Younder is well-known for making no sense at any time 05:39:49 JoshJ: (count-if (lambda (x) (> x 5)) '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)) 05:40:15 Krystof: I knew that, but I thought this time it was just me (given the early hour). 05:40:16 *JoshJ* considers 05:40:26 Krystof: Are you in the UK? 05:40:28 CL-USER> (macroexpand '(thereexists! x (> x 3))) 05:40:29 (COUNT-IF #'(LAMBDA (X) (> X 3)) (DOMAIN)) 05:40:36 hi 05:40:42 beach: yes 05:40:58 Krystof: Pretty early for you. 05:41:02 hello me-so-stupid 05:41:03 anyone works with weblocks? how to run it on another port, not 8080? 05:41:05 hrm 05:41:15 actually I have programmed CL for 10 yeras 05:41:21 me-so-stupid: I do. Let me take look. 05:41:27 younder: I am sorry to hear that. 05:41:30 Slava is quiet in jabber /: 05:42:06 oh durr, domain got messed up and reset to nil for some reason 05:42:16 JoshJ: your macro is wrong. 05:42:25 JoshJ: (domain) is inside a quoted list. 05:42:37 me-so-stupid: :port [number] to start-weblocks 05:42:45 Slava just stepped down as the maintainer. 05:44:08 rlpowell, thanks 05:44:09 btw beach, (domain) is a function which returns the list of the domain 05:44:19 which should be the integers 1 to 10 05:44:20 rlpowell, just i can speak in russian with him (: 05:44:30 JoshJ: except that since that call is inside a quoted list, it never gets evaluated. 05:44:38 hrm 05:44:43 it worked in the other macro 05:44:49 (defmacro thereexists (var expression) 05:44:50 `(some #'(lambda (,var) ,expression) (domain))) 05:44:52 works just fine 05:44:58 pjb [n=chatzill@212.145.149.100] has joined #lisp 05:44:59 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:45:59 JoshJ: er, hold on. I might have said something wrong... 05:47:54 JoshJ: OK, so (domain) is in the quoted list like I said, so the macroexpansion is indeed what you said. But, since the expanded form gets executed, you should get a call to the function domain, and everything should work. 05:48:42 well, i tweaked it a tiny bit 05:48:51 (defmacro thereexists! (var expression) `(count-if #'(lambda (,var) ,expression) (domain))) 05:48:59 that's working, finally... for some definition of "working" 05:49:13 now i have to simply get it to return true or false instead of a number, but that can be dealt with 05:49:53 -!- nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:49:53 -!- nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:50:43 *JoshJ* has it 05:50:45 (defmacro thereexists! (var expression) `(SOME (lambda (,var) ,expression) (domain))) 05:50:49 thanks for the help beach 05:50:56 no problem 05:51:04 er pjb ... that gives me "thereexists", not "thereexists!" 05:51:12 pjb: *exactly* one 05:51:36 Then you'd want (= 1 (count-if ...)) 05:51:44 and that's what i have now :) 05:51:50 pjb: like I said, yes. 05:52:04 good. 05:53:03 *JoshJ* goes to work on the rest of his stuff 05:56:38 dbalcer [n=dbalcer@151.80.70.240] has joined #lisp 05:57:56 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@c-24-5-14-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:01:34 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:05:47 -!- JoshJ [n=JoshJ@r38h107.res.gatech.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:08:05 why would you want ! at the end though? 06:12:53 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:16:59 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:17:15 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:21:36 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:13 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-102-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:37 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.155.52] has joined #lisp 06:33:04 birdsbit` [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 06:37:36 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:38:33 -!- dbalcer [n=dbalcer@151.80.70.240] has left #lisp 06:41:46 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:42:16 hugo__ [n=hugo@89-180-245-83.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 06:42:29 -!- larrytheliquid [n=larrythe@169.157.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:44:17 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 06:46:13 The ~a directive is the aesthetic directive; it means to consume one argument and output it in a human-readable form. This will render keywords without the leading : and strings without quotation marks .. 06:46:23 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:46:30 ^ is the aesthetic directive default then? because (format t "foo") doesnt show with quotes 06:46:34 or is this for nested? 06:47:10 "foo" is a string, so it will print foo on the screen 06:47:20 yeah 06:47:30 (format t "Hello: ~A" "\"foo\"") maybe? 06:47:31 but then what's "~a" for 06:48:15 -!- Ferrari_308_GTS is now known as fe[nl]ix 06:48:21 (defun hello-to (someone from) (format t "Hi ~A, greetings from ~A~%" someone from)) 06:49:29 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 06:50:56 -!- impulse32_ is now known as impulse32 06:51:28 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:51:35 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:52:34 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #lisp 06:54:29 -!- pjb [n=chatzill@212.145.149.100] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:55:21 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:55:32 -!- hugo_ [n=hugo@89-180-242-47.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:13 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.245.234] has joined #lisp 06:57:26 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 06:59:08 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:01:37 gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 07:06:11 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:06:20 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 07:06:35 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 07:06:56 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:08:39 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:09:06 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:09:45 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 07:09:46 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:10:14 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.249.21] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:10:53 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:14:42 trebor_w_ [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:15:24 mega1` [n=mega@53d82dce.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:16:01 slyrus: around? 07:16:04 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 07:16:16 mega1`: for a few more minutes 07:16:18 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:17:24 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 07:18:15 mega1`: what 07:18:21 's up? 07:18:36 -!- jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:23:22 slyrus: did the fix work for OSX? 07:23:36 indeed! thanks. both x86 and x86-64. 07:24:12 no probs, just wanted to know. 07:25:15 yeah, in retrospect, from the error symptoms, the fix should have been more obvious to me :) I guess that's usually true in retrospect :) 07:29:46 http://paste.lisp.org/display/68979 "can't open-code test of unknown type TEST" ..i keep wrapping defclass forms in eval-now to avoid this warning, but should it be like this? .. quoting from defclass @ the hyperspec: "If a defclass form appears as a top level form, the compiler must make the class name be recognized as a valid type name in subsequent declarations (as for deftype)..." 07:30:47 ..the inline declaim doesn't have to be there btw. .. forgot it 07:30:54 forgot to remove it* 07:31:47 oh, and this is SBCL 1.0.21 07:31:50 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:32:12 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 07:33:40 07:33:43 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.245.234] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:48 ..it's a bit strange .. because it must obviously partially know that the declaration is a type declaration since it doesn't throw an error-condition; i'm not using (declare (type test x)) 07:34:51 -!- cnwesleywang [n=lovelili@218.26.100.194] has left #lisp 07:35:40 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-152-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:01 Zephtar [n=chatzill@d62-185.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:38:02 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:40:48 -!- Zephtar [n=chatzill@d62-185.icpnet.pl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 07:41:03 Zephtar [n=chatzill@d62-185.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:41:59 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:45:46 -!- Zephtar [n=chatzill@d62-185.icpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 07:46:02 Zephtar [n=srusek@d62-185.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:49:03 -!- binghe [n=chatzill@60.12.227.4] has left #lisp 07:51:18 KingNato_ [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:53:14 lispm [n=joswig@e177125214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:55:02 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:56:19 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:59:08 spam filtering on common-lisp.net is back. i've configured it to be rather sensitive, please report problems. 07:59:19 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student166-32.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 08:00:16 e-mail at c-l.net is strictly forwarding, no sending or some such. right? (i.e. I have to change my From and Reply-To manually) 08:00:42 tic: i'm not sure if i understand what you mean. 08:00:56 tic: you can send from common-lisp.net, if you mean that. 08:00:59 H4ns, I see people sending e-mail using their c-l.net addresses. 08:01:12 tic: nothing wrong with that. 08:01:16 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:27 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:01:37 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:01:44 H4ns, I couldn't find any info on SMTP in the FAQ or elsewhere. Have I misunderstood something? 08:02:50 tic: we don't offer smtp service, but that does not mean that you can't use the @common-lisp.net as your mail address. 08:03:04 H4ns, OK, then I'm good. Thanks. 08:03:15 H4ns: how sensitive ? 08:03:26 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 08:03:38 fe[nl]ix: spamassassin 2.0, but that seems not to be enough, as i can see. 08:06:06 -!- KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:06:13 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.6] has joined #lisp 08:06:20 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:18:30 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:18:45 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:23:25 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:25:56 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:26:41 hello lispers 08:27:30 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:27:32 blAckEn3d [n=Alex@p54BA2355.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:27:42 *Draggor* might actually be on to making a clos<->xml thingy 08:27:58 Draggor: what would that do? 08:28:13 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 08:29:00 jdz: Someone sends data stored in XML your way, and you'd like to use that data as clos objects instead of a list. 08:29:20 -!- blAckEn3d [n=Alex@p54BA2355.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:29:43 Or, you have a bunch of clos objects, and you want to emit it as xml easily. Just run it through (clos-to-xml yourobj) and there you go 08:30:14 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:30:18 Main use: Backend is in lisp, frontend for a program I'm working on is in flex, and Flex communicates with XML easiest 08:30:31 Draggor: i hope you understand that the generic xml-to-clos is no better than the plain lists, right? 08:31:15 i mean, if the objects you create only have 3 slots: tag, attributes, content, then using plists is better 08:31:40 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:32:53 Part of this, say, for a tournament bracketing system, is clos is giving me things like class allocation 08:33:09 Which I'm finding rather useful 08:33:34 -!- jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:33:47 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:05 -!- KingNato_ [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:34:05 KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:08 So, might as well dump it all into clos to get those benefits (otherwise, yeah, the xml parsers out there do the trick jsut fine) 08:35:16 However, I need to pass out. I'm going to review my needs tomorrow when I'm fresh and see if I still actually have to do this. Thanks for the feedback jdz! 08:36:07 -!- anekos__ [n=anekos@pl087.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving.."] 08:45:51 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:46:39 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 08:48:48 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:55:02 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:55:58 sqvirt [n=sqvirt@c-24-16-244-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:38 so, I've just compiled and installed SBCL, but when I try to run a lisp program that works on the Gentoo-supplied version of SBCL, I get an error "failed to find the TRUENAME of ..../sb-bsd-sockets/constants.lisp-temp", where the '....' is the .fasls directory in my home directory. 08:59:28 I understand that this file is normally generated by running a C program that figures out what the constants are supposed to be in the current environment. Any ideas on how to get it to work? The file clearly isn't present. 08:59:30 i'm making the spam threshold on c-l.net even lower now, just so you know. 09:01:50 H4ns: was that directed at me? 09:01:55 no 09:02:04 H4ns: ok. 09:04:29 -!- sunwukong [n=salvi@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has quit ["bye"] 09:05:37 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:15 -!- zzk [n=zzk@foton-gw.xdsl.easynet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:08:54 sqvirt: your installation is broken. 09:09:13 sqvirt: normally you never need to recompile sb-bsd-sockets after install. 09:09:51 sqvirt: i suspect some interference from the old install, but that's just a guess. 09:11:08 cl-net 8_> sudo grep 'rejected after DATA' /var/log/exim4/mainlog | wc -l 09:11:08 99 09:11:16 seems effective :D 09:12:02 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:13:34 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-190-31.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 09:15:04 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:10 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:15:51 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:19:02 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp89-110-51-10.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 09:20:09 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:21:09 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.252.109] has joined #lisp 09:24:55 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-140-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:37 -!- Facedown [n=HELLO@c-69-140-211-205.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:26:52 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:28:12 good morning 09:30:17 hi 09:31:05 Xach: OK. Thanks! Anything I should look out for when building a new installation? 09:32:41 sqvirt: hmm, .sbclrc or /etc/sbclrc files that have distro configs, i guess. 09:33:03 Xach: ok, cool. 09:34:50 Xach: aha. renamed a Gentoo-supplied sbclrc file, and now it works. 09:34:59 Xach: thanks! 09:35:30 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-135-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:35:48 cool 09:35:55 *Xach* notes it down to reduce future guessing 09:37:15 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:37:47 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:39:18 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 09:44:18 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-098-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:16 moin moin. 09:47:50 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-30-59.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:47:54 sbcl seems to make it kind of painful to change its preferred default paths to things 09:49:00 I am kinda getting confusing about special variables in common lisp. Is that okay to do things like this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/68986 09:49:54 locklace: not really. you can set SBCL_HOME and i think there's a logical pathname you can set as well. 09:50:28 i had to grovel around through the runtime source to find out how to change the default value of SBCL_HOME 09:50:42 locklace: with...setenv? 09:50:47 and that probably still didn't fix its wanting to look in /etc for things 09:51:06 no, i think that's hardcoded in the runtime. 09:51:15 i wanted the *default* value to be different 09:51:17 yeah, it is 09:51:38 tomoyuki28jp: i don't think it's specified whether LOOP creates a new binding or updates an existing one. 09:51:54 which is bad style; it should have a simple config in an obvious place that obeys a prefix directory 09:52:31 hmm, actually, i don't think that's in the runtime, but in the default toplevel init. 09:52:55 the SBCL_HOME was a hardcoded #define in runtime.c 09:53:10 i don't know where the etc thing is, haven't looked for it yet 09:53:37 at the least there should be a config.h with one line, #define SBCL_PREFIX, in the dist root and the INSTALL file should mention it 09:53:56 I like the persuasive way you make your case for it! 09:54:07 hehe 09:54:29 tomoyuki28jp: i think you might have a clearer time demonstrating with an explicit LET rather than LOOP 09:54:43 just extremely annoying as a sysadmin when packages don't make it easy to change their install prefix 09:54:57 I use a different install prefix all the time. 09:55:01 *tic* too 09:55:35 I do that by never using /etc/sbclrc, and the install-root option to (I think) install.sh 09:55:49 *Xach* has 3 or 4 different active sbcls on the server 09:56:05 but the install prefix should also be the root of where it looks for all files at runtime 09:57:44 I don't think that really works with historical behavior, which specifies reading a user ~/.sbclrc too. 09:58:07 reading rc files in ~ is no problem 09:58:17 it's looking for system files using hardcoded paths 09:58:25 that's so 1992. :) 09:58:36 sbcl is older than 1992 09:59:37 Xach: I am afraid that I didn't get what you mean. Could you say that in other way? The point I am getting confusing is if it is a global var without let in other lang, the var will be shared in off of child threads; therefore, I should not use global var in this case. 09:59:39 locklace: as it turns out, it checks in the install root first. 09:59:46 locklace: but it falls back to /etc 09:59:58 s/off of/all of/ 10:00:14 tomoyuki28jp: i don't know, sorry. 10:00:16 locklace: make a patch for the build system, maybe someone will like it and it will be accepted 10:00:21 it checks in install_root/etc/sblcrc and then /etc/sblcrc? 10:00:30 Xach: Thanks. 10:00:39 locklace: SBCL_HOME/sbclrc 10:01:32 ok. that's not too bad. the only real issue then is making the default SBCL_HOME easier to change, or at the *very* least telling you where it's defined in the INSTALL file :) 10:02:29 locklace: it's buried under section 1.1, Quick Start 10:02:52 brb 10:02:55 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-30-59.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:04:07 Xach: you mean the "INSTALL_ROOT=/home/me sh install.sh" stuff? 10:04:31 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:04:47 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:06 that doesn't change the default SBCL_HOME. there's no reference to where this is defined or how to change it in INSTALL that i can see 10:07:59 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:11 -!- Wizard_ [n=wizard@90.150.214.198] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:58 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@121.32.45.111] has quit [] 10:11:17 Wizard_ [n=wizard@90.150.114.22] has joined #lisp 10:11:18 gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:11:33 -!- splittist [n=splittis@125.214.249.195] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 10:11:50 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:12:06 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:14:13 timor [n=icke@w0070.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 10:19:01 athos [n=philipp@p54B85415.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:59 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:20:26 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.193.29] has joined #lisp 10:22:00 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:25:24 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:29:08 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:30:30 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-098-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 10:36:14 cracki [n=cracki@44-170.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:40:44 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:42:03 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:46:46 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:52:48 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 10:57:16 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 10:59:36 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:01:15 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 11:04:03 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:54 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 11:07:04 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:09:22 -!- KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:09:56 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177125214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving..."] 11:18:21 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:18:50 -!- timor [n=icke@w0070.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 11:19:01 timor [n=icke@w0070.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 11:22:52 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:23:50 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:27:44 ths__ [n=ths@p549AE8E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:59 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:29:19 locklace: you're right, sorry. i have a customization step that patches (sb-impl::sbcl-homedir-pathname) and forgot about it. 11:31:12 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #lisp 11:31:42 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X4da4.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:32:09 -!- esden [i=esdentem@atradig141.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["leaving"] 11:32:39 -!- esden__ [i=esdentem@atradig141.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["leaving"] 11:33:58 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 11:34:11 ok. it's a trivial thing, would just be more unix friendly and make life easier for sysadmins who want to roll out sbcl to the masses :) 11:36:01 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-3-133.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:36:53 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:39:03 -!- ths__ is now known as ths 11:42:01 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:42:50 Conceptually, where do UNIX symbolic links fit into the idea of PATHNAME? 11:43:03 e271: not 11:43:15 So implementation dependent? 11:43:19 e271: correct. 11:43:27 x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-66.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 11:43:30 THanks for the confirmation. 11:46:47 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-102-1.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:48:12 elurin [n=user@85.99.132.20] has joined #lisp 11:49:59 heh, interesting viewpoint: "In 5 years UML will be so mis-understood that it will be viewed like LISP or SCHEME, that thing you used in class that was supposed to be great, but really it was only good for learning how to do X." 11:50:38 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084221.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 11:51:34 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:53:30 Interesting, but the problem with putting UML in that category is that there's no "there" there. You can find instantiations of it that are little more than drawing tools, others that are C++/Java IDEs with a chewy, gummy wrapper, and still others that are semantically complete frameworks for doing model transformations on executable UML. 11:53:41 -!- timor [n=icke@w0070.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:53:49 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 11:53:53 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:53:53 http://modelarchitecture.blogspot.com/2008/10/common-misunderstanding-of-uml.html is the full blog post for his context 11:56:08 has anyone found UML modeling useful for designing Lisp software? 11:56:22 I seriously doubt it. 11:56:35 Xach: Thanks, I'll leave a comment. 11:56:41 me too, but i'd be interested to hear a success story if there is one :) 11:57:09 i have found uml diagrams useful to depict some aspects of clos-based systems. 11:57:52 H4ns: yeah, it doesn't seem like a terrible idea to me to have a standardised way to depict common things 11:59:22 locklace: i did find uml restricted when it came to expressing all the clos features that were in use in the system i described. and in general, i have never found a use for uml in longer periods of any project, be it c++, java or common lisp based. but that is propably because i have never worked in ... 11:59:39 never worked in dot-dot-dot? 11:59:46 locklace: large scale environments that can afford to actually pay someone maintain the uml model of a system. 11:59:52 ah 12:00:04 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 12:00:37 yeah, in large environments it seems potentially very useful to have a well-maintained model, otherwise you can have total communications snafu between different groups that work on different parts of the system 12:01:25 they can't read? 12:01:37 I was going to put the demo online but my site is so slow that I coannot ask for a page and perform a ssh at the same time :(( 12:01:49 *cannot 12:06:22 -!- andrerav_ is now known as andrerav 12:07:06 is there any sort of tutorial or cookbook or something for Series besides Appendix A of CLtL2? 12:09:04 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB965A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:09:20 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB97D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:09:21 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 12:11:49 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:13:49 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:14:09 no 12:15:05 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B85415.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:15:25 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E447A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:35 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-152-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:17:05 Look if you want to understand the concept study Haskell 12:17:26 locklace: The source code is actually pretty hard to follow but quite useful 12:18:19 (along with the CLtL2 section) 12:18:25 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 12:18:40 Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 12:19:16 actually SERIES works in a completely different way to haskell so that's bad advice 12:19:42 no it's still lazy evaulation 12:20:29 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-152-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:33 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E447A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:20:34 younder: You're actually disagreeing with me? heh 12:20:50 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E446C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:03 I've used both Haskell and Series 12:21:19 right but you haven't understood either of them 12:21:55 db48x [n=db48x@cl-12.dal-01.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:10 no, you haven't understood either of them 12:22:10 can anyone recommend a cl package for scraping data from webpages? 12:22:31 yes, drakma 12:22:47 db48x: i use a semi-primitive mix of Closure HTML, cl-ppcre, and a http client 12:23:49 and cl-xml 12:24:49 sometimes XMLisp 12:25:37 hmm 12:25:51 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:25:51 Though so far I have only used it for AIML 12:27:01 db48x: i think the tools are there to write something really nice and higher-level, but nobody has done it so far (that i know of) 12:27:12 Xach: indeed 12:27:24 isn't "screen scaping" kind of ad hoc by definition? 12:27:25 I like the XMLisp logo :) 12:27:38 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:28:33 lichtblau: yes, but you can package it up nicely, so that the script you write can consist mainly of things like "submit the second form with the following fields", "grab the data from the fourth table as an array", etc 12:28:57 lichtblau: i think pattern matching and structure binding and things like that could be tailored for a nice HTML clubbing. 12:29:09 db48x: I see. 12:30:23 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46ED0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:31:23 Should be rewarding (and reasonably easy) to build something like that on top of drakma, closure-html, cxml-stp, plexippus-xpath! 12:31:49 well, I wouldn't go so far as to call screen scrapping "rewarding" 12:32:05 that has put me in a mood to write a "projects someone else should write" page that explains how easy said projects would be, with starting points and resources 12:32:21 there is a XPATH for CL cool.. 12:32:43 rewarding == "if you package it up nicely with some documentation, you can blog about it" 12:32:48 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:32:53 lichtblau: heh 12:33:01 hmm, I detect a certain bias in some of these suggestions 12:33:13 or the possibility of it, at least ;) 12:33:15 they can't help being german 12:33:24 <- totally biased 12:33:59 I'll choose to read that as "if you use my packages, I'll give you free help on irc whenever you need it" 12:34:12 esden [i=esdentem@atradig141.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:42 ok then drakma and perplexius-xpath (if it works) 12:34:59 db48x: that's usually the bargain around here 12:35:08 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:35:19 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 12:35:21 :) 12:36:45 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-170.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 12:39:01 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 12:42:10 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46DF7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:19 used XPATH extesivly in PHP, never seen it before in CL 12:42:38 Most usefull, thank you 12:43:40 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:01 licktblau 12:44:56 gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:46:02 are those three years up already? 12:47:39 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:45 time just flies by. 12:48:24 jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 12:49:14 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:49:17 under emacs, is there a "put the lisp symbol under the cursor as the current C-s string and switch to C-s mode" binding ? ('*' in vim) 12:50:23 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:50:58 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084221.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:52:53 lispm [n=joswig@e177125214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:53:26 kuwabara: after C-s you can C-w to slurp words into the search string 12:53:27 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:54:00 attila_lendvai: nice! 12:54:25 attila_lendvai: nice, thanks ! 12:54:56 after C-s you can also M-e and then paste something... 12:54:59 thats recursive buffering for ya 12:55:10 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:56:28 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E446C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:57:18 and after C-s, M-r switches to/from regexp mode, and M-c switches case sensitivity but i think it's getting really offtopic... :) 12:57:47 attila_lendvai: still very useful. 12:57:53 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177125214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 12:57:59 *Xach* wonders who just searched for lisp and vim 12:58:11 vd 12:58:22 (gah, wrong window) 12:59:20 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:59:31 *chandler* wonders if the Clozurites will post about their fundraising effort on the CCL blog 13:01:38 do you know if common-lisp.net supports also git ? 13:01:39 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:48 kiuma: yes. 13:02:22 H4ns: what does that support include? Is there a how-to? 13:02:35 brill [n=chatzill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:02:35 lichtblau: don't know/no :) 13:02:51 thx 13:02:51 ssh push is easy to support. : 13:02:52 :) 13:03:10 lichtblau: it is supported in that we have git installed. if anything else is needed, just let us know and we'll try to make it happen. 13:03:19 okay. I'm asking because git-over-http isn't much fun, and ssh only helps committers. 13:03:32 cgit is an excellent application. it'd be nice to have. 13:03:46 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:03:50 I'm currently using repo.or.cz, so that I have git:// access for pulling, and can use gitweb (or cgit, I'm not sure about the difference) without having to set anything up myself. 13:03:54 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:28 cl+ssl 13:04:47 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:04:57 anyone who is interested could/should open a ticket with specific information what enhancements in git support are needed. 13:06:14 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-152-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:06:34 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 13:06:37 -!- brill [n=chatzill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 13:07:44 *lichtblau* is happy with repo.or.cz, so won't file cl.net tickets 13:11:06 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 13:12:23 r00k [n=ben@216.93.247.56] has joined #lisp 13:12:26 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:12:43 -!- r00k [n=ben@216.93.247.56] has left #lisp 13:17:39 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:48 -!- rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:25:05 pjb [n=chatzill@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:29 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d751b2045f7e1d64] has joined #lisp 13:33:09 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:44 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.160.119] has joined #lisp 13:42:43 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d751b2045f7e1d64] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:43:12 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:03 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:44:44 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:45:22 H4ns: I have some elisp magic so C-w in C-s will insert a lisp symbol, i.e. not stop at dashes 13:47:26 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-32adc816d6fff2b1] has joined #lisp 13:47:45 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-202-108-128.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:01 tcr: paste it :) 13:48:47 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-3-133.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 13:49:31 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-133.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:49:56 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:50:40 yes please. 13:51:11 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 13:51:52 in hunchentoot I always have headers "Cache-Control max-age=0" even if i set (setf (header-out "Cache-Control") "max-age=259200") . Why ? 13:53:33 kiuma: is there a proxy between you and hunchentoot? 13:53:40 yes 13:53:48 kiuma: is the proxy setting the cache-control header? 13:54:14 Xach, I've only set apache reverse-proxy 13:54:26 kiuma: that doesn't really answer my question. 13:54:41 kiuma: one way to test is to fetch directly from hunchentoot and see what it returns. 13:55:08 Xach, ok I try, thx for the hint 13:55:30 kiuma: from what i know of hunchentoot, it does not fiddle with the cache-control header unless you use the no-cache function. 13:55:39 and even then it does not fiddle with it in the way you describe 13:56:25 timor [n=icke@w0056.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 13:57:50 I'll investigate more deeply, since I've the same result accessing the application directly 13:58:02 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:09 H4ns: hah! re cl-pdf. 14:01:28 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:46 Xach: my head still hurts, but i got it to work :) 14:02:05 cl-pdf presents a daunting challenge to a documenter, because PDF is really big. 14:02:24 and cl-pdf supports a pretty good amount of it, mostly along the lines of "does exactly what the PDF spec says" 14:03:02 on the other hand, when it's written, it's written...not like existing features would ever change much 14:04:11 H4ns: did the parser work ok eventually too? 14:05:29 Xach: yes. the only way i got it (compose a pdf out of two pdf files which need to be combined to one page and one fdf file with form data) to work was by parsing the pdf that contains the form fields, render my additional content into that and then fill out the form using pdftk 14:05:53 cl-pdf often failed for us silently which was a big headache and the start of hours long debugging sessions 14:05:54 H4ns: interesting 14:06:02 Xach: i tried to play all sorts of games with making one pdf being the background of the other, but that did not work. 14:06:33 H4ns: i also used the parser for filling out forms, but didn't use the form filling stuff...i used the parser to extract the rectangles of form fields, then drew over the existing form pdf with data from another source. 14:06:41 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-152-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:50 not very robust, but worked for our case 14:07:20 Xach: that would propably work for me, too, but as i got it working now, i'm not so keen on looking at the stuff again. it was a major pain to get this far. 14:07:53 *Xach* puts down "flexi-streams powered cl pdf software" on his "stuff other people should write" list 14:08:29 I'm still hoping that PDF support in OpenOffice will work out well for this kind of stuff. 14:08:44 flexi-streams, salza2, chipz, & related 14:08:51 zpb-ttf too... 14:09:04 Admittedly that's an "industrial-strength solution" rather than something a crowd of open source lisp hackers would like. 14:09:10 Xach: haha 14:09:31 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 14:11:28 we ran an interesting experiment in cl-quasi-quote-pdf to generate pdf. it's a very subtle proof of concept code, but it shows that the result would be a very flexible and efficient pdf emitter... but the pdf spec is huge, so it'll remain as a proof of concept... 14:14:14 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2EBD4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:32 Xach, it is my internet connection that is slow :( 490Kb of page, 487Kb from cache , all in 11 sec. 14:14:52 I want to kill my ISP 14:15:35 attila_lendvai: the format itself is pretty simple and clean. the volume of operations is intimidating. 14:16:51 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:18:38 cl-pdf doesn't really do anything too fancy. you can pass it bogus stuff and it will happily write it out to the file. 14:18:46 there is a bit of sanity checking here and there 14:18:50 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has joined #lisp 14:19:12 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:19:21 Xach: that experiment was running parts of the pdf conversion at compile time based on the positions of the unquotes. this adds a considerable amount of complexity to the process emitting the format. it's very interesting, but we need to pay the bills, so we stayed with cl-pdf for now and next time we will probably move to some xml based open document format... 14:24:39 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:25:45 milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.122] has joined #lisp 14:28:56 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:30:22 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has quit [] 14:30:53 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:31:08 -!- Pala-Wan [n=tc-rucho@190.191.161.86] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:31:43 dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 14:34:40 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483EE36.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:48 -!- timor [n=icke@w0056.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:37:45 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@85-220-125-230.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:38:16 schme [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:40:05 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.160.119] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:40 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-229-242.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:53 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:43:02 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 14:43:38 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:45:41 hmm. if i call destructuring-bind with a function that has one required and one optional argument, i get a STYLE-WARNING from sbcl: "The function was called with one argument, but wants exactly two." 14:46:50 does the xmls maintainer get on #lisp? 14:47:16 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:47:24 locklace: that seems odd. can you paste it? 14:47:26 every email address claiming to be the address of the maintainer bounces 14:47:47 Xach: yeah, let me try it with a minimal example 14:48:00 dlowe: is that the japanese guy? i don't think that he actively maintains xmls 14:48:10 dlowe: According to its homepage that would be drewc. 14:48:25 lichtblau: the homepage does not agree with the package 14:48:47 lichtblau: but the email address bounces, in any case. 14:49:08 dlowe: dcrampsie at c-l.net 14:49:39 Knuckles_c88 [n=x@net-93-146-5-205.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 14:49:53 H4ns: thanks. Maybe we can sort this out :p 14:50:36 hi 14:50:43 excuse me 14:51:00 do you know a C/C++ chan? 14:51:09 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:51:18 Knuckles_c88: ##c 14:51:20 *e271* laughs. 14:51:33 "we are the lisp dudes, we know everything" 14:52:00 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:05 :) 14:52:07 In the end, everything *is* written underneath in C/C++. 14:52:08 thank... 14:52:18 e271: except the parts that aren't (: 14:52:20 Sadly, perhaps. 14:52:23 Yeah, ok. 14:52:44 Lisp, is the only way to create Autocad's plug in? 14:52:44 *e271* retreats from such absolutes. "Meaningless, anyways." 14:52:52 sorry for my english 14:53:08 -!- jdz_ [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit [] 14:53:10 last time i looked, my lisp was written in lisp 14:53:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@12.191.171.2] has quit [] 14:53:26 Knuckles_c88: don't know, but autocad uses a specific lisp called autolisp 14:54:18 yes... but i have listened that C or C++ or C# are used to create autocad application... 14:54:33 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 14:54:55 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:54:56 Knuckles_c88: perhaps you should try an autocad channel 14:55:53 do you know one? 14:56:24 sorry but i'm a dummies of mIRC :( 14:57:00 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-66.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:58:42 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/69007 14:59:27 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 14:59:28 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:29 locklace: that is invalid syntax for destructuring-bind 14:59:42 locklace: do you still get an error if you use (destructuring-bind (x) ...)? 14:59:48 warning, rather 15:00:03 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:08 i think i've seen that discussed in the past 15:00:23 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@p5084D7CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:29 Xach: are you sure it's invalid? it seems to work fine. but anyway, yes, same error with x -> (x) 15:00:33 sbcl's non-signal of failure with that syntax, that is. 15:00:43 ah 15:01:35 locklace: i'm not sure why you get that, I can't reproduce. 15:01:45 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:02:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:02:49 i couldn't reproduce it with a minimal function either 15:02:52 .... 15:03:05 but i don't see why the contents of tree-expand should matter 15:03:39 Knuckles_c88: http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml 15:03:57 -!- Knuckles_c88 [n=x@net-93-146-5-205.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has left #lisp 15:04:05 locklace: it's possible some other misleading bit of state is lingering somewhere 15:05:50 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:06:33 Xach: i guess so, i just restarted the lisp and it went away. :) 15:06:34 BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.211.123.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 15:06:40 xach: around? 15:06:51 vasa [n=vasa@mm-219-188-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 15:07:00 BW^-: hello. 15:07:10 xach: saw you wrote a compressor library! :) 15:07:15 BW^-: yep 15:07:20 any plans to add decompression? 15:07:34 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:07:42 BW^-: chipz works pretty well for that 15:08:23 aha!sweet! 15:08:24 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:08:44 approx what speed does your library and chipz have compared to the c equivalents? 15:09:13 on the cl compiler of your choice :) 15:09:35 BW^-: i haven't benchmarked chipz. salza2 compression speed is pretty decent on sbcl, performance depends on the input content and size. 15:09:48 let me try gzipping something to check 15:09:57 sweet! 15:10:03 BW^-: it was less than 2x slower than C, can't remember how close it was exactly 15:10:15 btw, does your library support the higher compression level addressed on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GZip : ? 15:10:20 "AdvanceCOMP and 7-Zip can produce gzip-compatible files, using an internal DEFLATE implementation with better compression ratios than gzip itself\emdash at the cost of more processor time compared to the reference implementation." 15:10:27 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:10:43 BW^-: no, currently there isn't a way to trade speed for space. it uses some fixed values for compression strategy. 15:10:54 ok 15:11:03 so, let's see what speed it has compared to libzip :) 15:12:14 Xach: ok, try this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/69008 15:12:28 on a sample 1.3 meg file that's mostly text, gzip takes about 0.95 seconds and salza2 takes about 0.1 seconds 15:12:40 Wow !! 15:12:46 the gzip file is 280kb, mine is 360kb :( 15:12:52 oh. :( 15:12:55 I do a bad job pretty quickly! 15:12:55 why? 15:13:04 BW^-: they do more work in that timeframe 15:13:08 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:25 was it the same compression ratio? 15:13:42 -!- sboyette [n=mdxi@li11-97.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:13:42 i think to me compression strength is more important than speed 15:13:59 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 15:14:00 BW^-: for me it's the opposite. i need it fast and can live with bigger sizes. 15:14:17 use it for a web page? 15:14:19 ok 15:14:24 BW^-: there is no magic formula for the ratio. i use a different algorithm than gzip, so it's not compared 1 to 1 for settings. 15:14:24 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-196.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:14:39 BW^-: yeah, i generate PNG files on the fly 15:14:45 ah 15:14:48 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-196.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 15:15:14 locklace: that seems like a bug to me 15:15:43 hi, i am looking for a lisp command with the same functionality as wget in linux 15:15:45 do you see any way to increase speed, and compression ratio? 15:15:56 minion: tell klausi about drakma 15:15:58 klausi: have a look at drakma: Drakma is a fully-featured Common Lisp web client library that knows how to handle HTTP/1.1 chunking, persistent connections, re-usable sockets, SSL, continuable uploads, cookies, and other things. http://www.cliki.net/drakma 15:16:06 Xach: ok, what's the best way to report sbcl bugs? 15:16:23 i guess the web page tells me. ;) 15:16:23 thx 15:16:28 locklace: email to sbcl-devel. 15:16:44 locklace: yay! i lobbied somewhat hard to make it obvious from the front page. 15:16:54 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/tor/x-c86e191e44317231] has joined #lisp 15:17:07 continuable *up*loads? 15:17:14 *Xach* hadn't noticed that feature 15:17:16 xach: ? 15:17:17 hehe 15:17:56 BW^-: in the description of drakma 15:18:31 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 15:18:40 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:18:57 BW^-: hmm, compression ratios could be improved by trying several different possible compression paths and picking the best 15:19:04 BW^-: right now it tries a small, fixed number of paths 15:19:16 that would make things slower 15:19:48 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:49 locklace: what version of SBCL are you using? 15:20:15 kreuter: fwiw, i get it in 1.0.21.24 15:21:00 Xach: you're not using fixed huffman trees, right? 15:21:13 kreuter: 1.0.21 15:21:16 salex: i am 15:21:17 ok 15:21:23 ah, ok. so there is that. 15:21:30 good call, yeah. that would help too. 15:21:45 if it comes down to it, that's the best way to attack compression ratio 15:22:15 i should add that. 15:22:42 wish i had the spare cycles to offer :( 15:22:53 i have some applications where i have a very good idea about the distribution of values 15:23:07 in advance, so no need to build them at runtime 15:23:13 that definitely helps reduce the need for majick, yes 15:24:35 (where majick is involved in doing well without a lot of duplicated effort). Easy enough to get good compression if you're being very slow 15:24:59 heh 15:26:10 was muss ich eigentlich alles machen um ne http request zu senden? 15:26:21 auf engelsk svp 15:26:34 sry wrong window 15:26:45 that's a very funny encoding scheme you guys are using 15:27:01 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:28:01 adaptive entropy coding isn't too terribly difficult to do, but having good fallbacks and knowning when to bail are needed for speed, I think. 15:28:58 adaptive entrophy? 15:30:13 younder: the coders are adaptive 15:30:13 Intreresing concept.. 15:30:19 standard concept 15:30:39 you have to estimate the probability distribution somehow 15:30:50 either you do it over a corpus of inputs and fix it 15:31:03 or you adjust based on the input 15:31:09 or (best) a combination 15:31:41 Ive read through all of Donald Knuth 'The art of computter programming' and never found this 'standard concept' 15:31:56 younder: what does this tell you about taocp? 15:32:00 well, Knuth doesn't talk about entropy coding and compression 15:32:03 It was also not in a Tom Clancy novel I read. 15:32:03 so hardly surprising 15:32:35 New then 15:32:57 younder: its' been around for the history of compression algorithms, basically 15:33:03 very nearly 15:33:07 Iv'e also read bayesian reasoning 15:33:19 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:26 that is a bit closer to what you suggest 15:33:38 athos [n=philipp@p54B867D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:12 sort of. You can use Bayes rule to interpret the prior and apriori parts of the distribution, certainly 15:34:26 huffmans paper was early 50s, i expect he talked about this in there 15:34:28 fwiw 15:34:45 maybe it was a bit later 15:35:16 -!- klausi [n=klausi@port-92-202-108-128.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:35:34 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 15:36:34 and of course Shannons original information theory stuff (late 40s, 48 iirc) is the underlying work 15:36:42 so not exactly `new' 15:36:57 Are you familiar with the papers of lingual comprehension? 15:37:08 in particular by DEC 15:37:12 nat. language stuff? not particularly 15:37:16 i've never worked in the area 15:37:21 also statistical 15:37:27 naturally 15:37:39 Hidden Markov substitusion? 15:38:04 HMM models have been used a lot in speech recognition 15:38:07 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 15:38:11 a bit in NL (i.e. text) too 15:38:17 there are a lot of related ideas 15:38:31 all this stuff is beyond the scope of Knuth too ;) 15:38:39 yes 15:39:00 um, maxote wants to speak on this channel about 7zip. 15:39:05 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:48 this is a channel for discussing lisp 15:39:56 ecraven [n=nex@78.104.23.130] has joined #lisp 15:40:10 ok 15:40:11 so it's ok if he wants to reimplement in lisp :) 15:40:16 otherwise, ot 15:40:21 or write an ffi, right. 15:41:03 I like ACL2 if you have heard about that 15:41:03 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:16 verifiable applicative Lisp 15:41:28 jdz [n=jdz@87.110.168.120] has joined #lisp 15:41:59 like 'bachus' ive beendrawn to it 15:43:11 jeng [n=user@75.110.231.66] has joined #lisp 15:44:47 um. maxote asks you to unban him. 15:44:53 we should ge togeher.. 15:45:04 lol 15:45:20 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:45:36 I'm having trouble with clsql getting out of sync with the actual database table. Has anyone else ever had this problem? 15:46:01 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-3-93-192.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:51 jeng: structurally? or due to cached results? 15:47:07 jeng: i've found the caching to get pretty confusing, and usually set it globally to nil 15:47:35 jeng: thats what we do as well 15:47:38 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:47:48 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:47:52 jeng: if we want caching we have generally applied that after the fact 15:48:02 A select statement from the mysql prompt show the update. Select statements from clsql do not show the update until a minute later 15:48:03 locklace: I think I've found the cause of the bug in SBCL. it's astoundingly stupid. 15:48:04 kreuter: do you have an idea on the style-warning of locklace? i don't get it in an old (1.0.6) sbcl 15:48:10 hah 15:48:23 hm 15:48:35 jeng: try: (setf clsql:*default-caching* nil) 15:49:09 Yeah I tried that before the select statment but it different make a difference. 15:49:10 Xach: I think it might be that the bug was there, only the warning wasn't being signaled in the past. 15:49:36 kreuter: where does the bug live? 15:49:37 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.122] has left #lisp 15:49:45 milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.122] has joined #lisp 15:50:18 bobbysmith2007: Should I turn caching off immediately after starting the server? 15:50:37 jeng: you should be able to disable it on a query-by-query basis. 15:50:44 if even just by using :caching nil as a keyword arg 15:50:50 jeng: thats what I tend to do, but it shouldnt make a difference. the only place where that variable gets used is in the select function 15:51:06 jeng: do you get the correct results if you use clsql:query instead of select? 15:51:42 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 15:51:44 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 15:52:35 I haven't tried query yet. This is some old code that I'm moving from tbnl to hunchentoot. It use to work ;) 15:52:44 ahh 15:53:02 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit ["Yow! Legally-imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED!"] 15:53:54 I didn't notice the keyword argument for caching. I'll give that a try. Thanks. 15:54:19 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:56:07 Xach: http://dkicomp.dki.tu-darmstadt.de/~robert/temp/MCT-MCM/ some compressed animations of the lisp-application (microfocus-tomography) 15:57:18 demmeln [i=demmeln@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 15:57:28 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-219-188-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 15:58:48 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:59:12 trebor_w_: that is quite interesting! 15:59:16 trebor_w_: what is it? 15:59:21 how did you make it? 16:00:19 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-502b8168081f584a] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:24 i am writing a tool for analyzing 3d-pictures of reinforced polymers (glass spheres, -fibres, c-fibres). 16:01:30 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:31 this is a first milestone. a fast method of finding spheres. i only need to analyze less than 1% of the volume data. 16:02:12 loading the data is 7 times slower than analyzing it. 16:02:22 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B867D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:02:57 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-a1d184bb84a46099] has joined #lisp 16:03:02 heh 16:03:06 (actually it was the 2nd milestone (3d-display of data + reconstruction)) 16:03:17 that is like lisp, where starting lisp is 7 times slower than running functions from the repl 16:03:49 arwed [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:04:45 loading the file is access to hd and touching each voxel (volume-pixel), analyzing touches less than 1% of the voxels (some monte-carlo-pattern-matching/folding + statistics). 16:06:30 next step is extending the algorithm to find & analyze fibre length/orientation(/radius). 16:06:50 trebor_w_: i've done some similar stuff on nano-scale SEM images 16:07:20 trebor_w_: pretty nifty 16:07:36 -!- pjb [n=chatzill@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:46 looks good 16:07:50 salex: what kind of material / analyze did you do? 16:08:32 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 16:09:15 i told my boss, that i will only do it in lisp - and he accepted ;) 16:09:25 geometry of nano-scale pores in films etc. an austin group is making 16:09:41 most of my stuff is medical image related, but this is similar-ish 16:09:51 (we do a fair bit of pattern recognition) 16:09:53 2d or 3d? 16:09:57 3d 16:10:19 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:11:04 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:42 do you have an url/title for googling? 16:11:59 not yet (this hasn't been delivered yet) 16:12:20 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:40 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:45 did you analyze walls & corners, too? 16:12:48 -!- arwed is now known as alley_cat 16:13:10 working on that atm, actually (after something else is finished) 16:13:35 what did you build your interface with? looks pretty useful 16:13:40 vasa [n=vasa@mm-219-188-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 16:14:04 you can see a bit of (old) med stuff here: http://www.math.uh.edu/cmb/Research.html 16:14:47 I'd link you an image or two of the ongoing stuff, but I think it might break the nda, sorry. 16:14:54 (boilerplate, bah) 16:15:39 of course, much to Xophe's chagrin, i end up reimplementins most stuff in matlab for other people to use :( 16:16:05 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:16:25 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 16:16:34 i use mostly tcl/tk + gnuplot + EasyBMPtoAvi. 16:17:53 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-219-188-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Client Quit] 16:18:13 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-85-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:56 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:03 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 16:19:57 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 16:23:43 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:51 it is nice to know now, that i can ask here about 3d-image analysis, too ;) 16:27:24 :) have you been working in the area long? 16:27:36 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:36 clisp 412 out of 21693 total tests failed in ansi-tests.. is something wrong? 16:28:36 ask about hidden markov models! 16:28:51 Xof: that came up earlier! 16:28:57 oh really? 16:29:02 I've been in teaching and meetings all day 16:29:10 yes, but not in a terribly interesting context, just mentioned 16:29:14 mye [n=mye@dslb-088-070-020-091.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:22 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:26 dmiles_afk: i don't think so. 16:29:27 compression->NL/audio->hmm etc. iirc 16:29:31 i was doing some 2d-image analysis before (c/c++). i started with 3d-analysis some weeks ago (writing everything from scratch in lisp). 16:29:54 -!- ecraven [n=nex@78.104.23.130] has quit ["bbl"] 16:30:25 Xach, googling now.. hrrm i see a stack frame dump durring one of the tests.. perhaps that made it fail the rememinder 16:30:42 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:30:53 + and writing an application for a research project 16:31:00 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 16:32:19 trebor_w_: I did some of my masters research code, and all of my phd research code in lisp (most of it imaging related) 16:32:32 it's great for that sort of thing 16:32:57 lately i've been prototype in lisp then reimplement too often :( 16:33:42 Xof: ISTR that you worked on reproducible cold fasls some time ago. Did you ever finish that? 16:33:51 i love it that i can keep my algorithms at maximum-flexibility - i am sort of bottom-top thinking. 16:34:11 (I actually need a reproducible cold.core. But perhaps that's the same thing.) 16:34:43 I have not finished it 16:34:56 salex: do you mind sending your masters-thesis to me / url? 16:35:05 ths__ [n=ths@p549AE91D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:22 I can't remember the current state, but I think something like half of the cold fasls are reproducible with my mutant version and half of them differ between clisp-compiled and sbcl-compiled 16:35:38 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 16:35:42 mail me if a patch would be helpful 16:35:44 i don't have one immediately hand (this machine just got clean installed) but you can find them on univ. of waterloo site. alexander, applied math, 2001 and 2005 16:36:05 do canadians say "math" or "maths"? 16:36:11 i say maths 16:36:26 but i'm british originally, so i wouldn't know if it's normative 16:36:29 Thanks. A patch would be helpful. I'll write mail. 16:36:31 i think many say math 16:36:52 but it might be a bit regional 16:36:59 kids HERE are starting to say 'math'; that's cultural imperialism for you :) 16:37:03 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:08 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AE8E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:37:09 -!- ths__ is now known as ths 16:37:10 *tic* says "matte" :) 16:41:02 trebor_w_: fwiw, you won't see much code related in those docs, though. 16:41:25 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 16:41:44 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:42:04 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.193.29] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:43:14 salex: http://etd.uwaterloo.ca/etd/sk2alexa2005.pdf ? 16:44:04 *salex* nods 16:44:28 dunno if that's much use to you. IFS stuff and some image synthesis across multiple scales 16:45:00 the stuff I'm working on these days is much closer to your problem 16:45:15 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:30 also, that thesis sucks. but the bibliography might be useful ;) 16:45:41 i see. especially if i think of analyzing polymer-foams via mtc .) 16:46:00 (i did not mean: i see to your thesis!) 16:46:24 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 16:46:30 (i was refering to 2 above) 16:46:41 pjb [n=chatzill@212.145.149.100] has joined #lisp 16:47:01 *trebor_w_* is too slow in typing 16:47:42 the primary bits are a section on iterated function systems (not a terrible intro i think) and markov/gibbs random fields (much better and more complete intros around). The applications themselves are not pattern rec. 16:47:50 so i don't know how much you'd get from it 16:49:38 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:51:20 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:51:30 i wasn't actually joking about the thesis sucking part, btw. I ran out of time, and wrote it up in about 3 1/2 weeks (that was fun). A bunch of stuff is pretty incomplete. So unles syou're pretty specifically interested in the multiscale ideas in there, there are better places to look 16:52:10 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 16:52:50 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:08 but ... somewhat ontopic ... all of the code used for those applications was in lisp :) 16:56:01 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-098-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:32 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:33 fdr- [n=fdr@76-191-209-5.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:43 -!- antgreen [n=green@bas2-toronto06-1242511347.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:59:57 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@12.191.171.34] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:00:06 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:00:29 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 17:00:43 antgreen [n=green@bas2-toronto06-1242511347.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:00:55 jajcloz [n=jaj@12.191.171.81] has joined #lisp 17:01:58 salex: you did percolation-considerations, too?(!?) 17:02:47 you mean in to porous media results? not directly in that work, no 17:03:47 collaboration with a chem eng. prof who was interested in it, though, and I worked off indirect features (acfs, chordlengths etc.) 17:04:03 we didn't get any percolation results into that thesis, but he's done some iirc 17:04:17 not really my area 17:04:20 i ask, because this is the second lisp-project i am working on ;) 17:04:29 ah, ok! 17:04:37 i know a little bit about it, but note aboev 17:04:47 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Client Quit] 17:06:33 i use some of the percolation-functionality in order to do correction/analyzis/statistics for the 3d-data reconstruction. 17:06:49 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:07:48 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:40 *i am going to use .... 17:08:54 -!- jdz [n=jdz@87.110.168.120] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 17:10:35 sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:18 -!- jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [] 17:11:50 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-37.kosnet.ru] has quit ["l o v e"] 17:12:35 trebor_w_: sounds good! keep us posted... 17:15:20 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-229-242.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:15:49 that was my laptop - i fear it run out of battery (at home) :| 17:17:28 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 17:19:27 Good evening. 17:21:49 *trebor_w_* has to go home (womenfokls awaiting ;) 17:23:22 -!- trebor_w_ [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 17:23:54 minion: logs? 17:23:55 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 17:24:07 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:41 jfm3 [n=user@165.230.132.126] has joined #lisp 17:25:58 schasi [n=schasi@p54A26586.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:53 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-cd19ef863155ad98] has joined #lisp 17:32:09 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.8] has joined #lisp 17:33:55 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 17:38:44 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:39:14 rme_ [n=rme@pool-68-238-4-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:27 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:31 drewc: how do I request RT for a ticket status? 17:40:39 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has joined #lisp 17:40:58 hey beach, how goes? 17:43:51 jlilly [n=jlilly@mail.justinlilly.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:01 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:44:52 salex: This hasn't been one of my better days, but it'll be better tomorrow. What about you? 17:45:10 hi. finally comfortable with emacs and a bit of emacs lisp.. curious if there were any "do X and get " reciepe style tutorials to mess around with. 17:45:24 that's: Do X and get Y 17:45:32 beach: buried in work and buggy software workarounds. no fun 17:45:41 salex: ouch! 17:45:42 jlilly: #emacs might know. 17:45:48 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 17:45:48 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 17:46:02 pkhuong: I'm looking for something in CL not emacs lisp. 17:46:44 jlilly: you did say "emacs lisp" ... 17:46:49 jlilly, http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/ 17:46:56 there is the "common lisp cookbook", not sure what stat it's in these days 17:47:00 salex: actually, I should be more optimistic. I demoed Gsharp for half a dozen colleagues today, and I expect the same number tomorrow. There are always implicit positive implications for Lisp in those demos. 17:47:02 ah, locklace beat me to the link 17:47:08 beach: nice 17:47:10 ! 17:47:23 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-85-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:45 salex: This week is the "fête du LaBRI" which is designed for colleagues to discover what others are doing. 17:47:57 beach: do you think it's effective? 17:48:09 beach: changing the world, a dozen computer scientists at a time. :) 17:48:10 a lot of places seem to have something similar... mixed results, I think 17:48:12 salex: fair enough. thanks guys! 17:48:32 jlilly: if you just want practice, finding some programming competition problems and implementing them might work 17:49:23 salex: It's effective, yes, but on a very small scale. I mean, my lab just granted me 3 months full-time developer to develop Gsharp, so the message is sinking in. 17:49:40 slyrus_: I really believe that, yes. 17:49:50 rsynnott: I'm probably going to go through practical common lisp when I have time.. just looking for something to read through wile I'm bored at work. 17:50:20 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.4] has joined #lisp 17:50:27 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:50:44 salex: by repeating the message often, but in very subtle ways, I think it will eventually get across. 17:50:45 beach: that 3mo grant is great news 17:51:07 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@mail.justinlilly.com] has left #lisp 17:51:11 do you know what you'll do with the help already? 17:51:37 salex: yes, not only because of the money, but especially for the recognition that this is important stuff. It is not a lot of money, but it is a considerable fraction of the budget of the lab allocated for those things. 17:51:49 kij [n=user@0910ds2-vbr.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 17:52:04 right, that's as I expected. Symbolic value as well as limited financial value 17:52:14 salex: I do yes. I had to make some compromises there, that I might tell you about some time. 17:53:44 *salex* nods 17:54:14 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A11A6.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:55:21 salex: one of the colleagues wanting a demo today, was the current director of the research lab. She knew that the lab had agreed to the money, so she wanted to know what she was paying for. I believe she was impressed by what she saw. 17:55:43 that's got to be satisfying 17:55:49 indeed. 17:56:12 salex: but I make a point of not pushing the Lisp issue to hard, and I let them discover that by themselves. 17:56:35 I think that's the best policy 17:57:10 on the other hand, look at what happened to both yahoo! store and GOAL 17:57:13 salex: sometimes, when asked, I will say things like: Oh, I am to old to use anything but Lisp. Java and C++ are for young people who have lots of time to waste. Me, I have lots of other things to do, so I need to be productive. 17:57:29 heh 17:57:39 'oh man, this is pretty awesome stuff... let's rewrite it in a 'real language' ' -->2 years later 'it's not working! :<' 17:58:18 sykopomp: I think that says a lot about how the commercial industry works (or doesn't) on average, not htat much about lisp per se. 17:58:20 beach: sometimes when i tell other people i use lisp, they say "oh, lisp, that's so hard! you must be really smart!" and i have to tell them that i use lisp becasue it's *easier*, and more supportive, not harder. 17:58:41 Xach: not bad! 17:58:42 i am too dumb for things that aren't lisp 17:58:49 nice! 17:59:07 it's true. I say the same thing, mainly because I can't quite process the way C-likes do things. 17:59:24 sykopomp: They got the companies that made them from founding to buy-out, which seems to me to be a good result for the people who decided "let's use Lisp!" 17:59:25 I get too confused with loops, too, which is why I don't like them. Specially index-based ones. 17:59:33 It helps that I am (rightly so) known as a productivity-fixated person at the university level, and I can show concrete proof of that. So when I claim something is more productive, generally people take me seriously. 17:59:38 maybe i should switch to "sure, i'm a genius, but you should see the super-geniuses i chat with on IRC" 17:59:41 all the loops I -do- use are 'for item in list do ..' 18:00:23 Xach: you don't give yourself enough credit :) 18:00:23 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:00:28 benny [n=benny@i577A11A6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:00:29 kij` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 18:00:31 beach: I liked rob warnock's recent story about 100 shallow holes 18:00:35 Xach: I get a variant of that. Oh, it must be ok for you scientists/mathematicians/physicists/whatever, but what about average programmers. I have to disabuse people about the programming capabilities of most of the grad students ;) 18:00:46 Xach: I missed it! 18:00:58 salex: Grad students can program? 18:01:08 beach: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/c77e217a3eb51be7 is it 18:01:21 nyef: rare event 18:01:23 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 18:01:30 Moving from Actionscript to Lisp was very humbling for me, mostly due to the quality of Lisp users. 18:01:59 nyef: maybe you guys should take away my commit bit in december :p 18:02:37 nyef: which isn't to say that a lot of them aren't pretty bright. In fact, particularly because the ones I see have little or no formal training, I think most of the time their intelligence works against them 18:02:38 ahaas: they also have quite luxurious beards 18:03:12 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:12 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:03:17 *sykopomp* is growing back the neckbeard. 18:03:28 pkhuong: Or maybe we should just send congratulations. 18:03:29 s/growing/cultivating/ 18:03:30 Xach: very nice! It's a perfect description of why I started Gsharp, McCLIM (sort of), Climacs, ESA, Flexichain, etc. 18:03:47 *pjb* 's beard is pure lazyness... 18:03:48 I think the average Actionscript coder and the average Lisp coder couldn't be much farther apart in spirit. 18:04:22 it's hard to construct such theoretical persons. 18:04:25 There are average lisp coders? I thought we were a breed apart? 18:04:43 ahaas: This is what I appreciate here, the quality of the people. 18:04:44 pkhuong: what's coming in december? 18:05:05 s/average/median/ 18:05:09 tic: we don't even know the space is complete 18:05:13 beach: Agreed. That's why I like to hang out here even when I have no Lisp work to do. 18:05:36 ahaas: Ah, but we have tons of work to give you when you are ready. 18:05:44 salex: i graduate and begin a masters in OR in january. 18:05:50 i think there are some benefits to the "hey, we're all just muddling idiots struggling together" mentality that i've seen in a lot of places. it's easier to find common problems and (hopefully) their solutions, because people are plentiful and vocal whenever they stumble on something. 18:06:11 it sometimes seems like someone who runs into a lisp problem when starting up just stops using lisp. 18:06:13 beach: I have plenty to do as soon as I can finish the current load of Actionscripting. 18:06:20 salex, a bit dizzy. the space between those two not being complete? 18:07:10 pkhuong: OR the field, or OR the state or ... ? 18:07:21 CL:OR? :) 18:07:24 pkhuong: congrats! 18:07:27 Xach: I have been thinking of that problem. 18:07:29 then there's will wright's pyramid model of the user community, which is interesting 18:07:55 salex: the field (: 18:07:58 salex: obviously OR the state in this sentence. 18:08:10 *Xach* wonders if the lisp model is more like a cylinder 18:08:12 Xach: On good days I think: hell, we have fast Internet connections, good sysadmin staff, etc. Why don't I just host the entire set of libraries. 18:08:13 neomage [n=anon@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:17 Xach: Well, one problem I have with Actionscript is that it's very difficult to find good answers to problems when every guy who has been coding in it for two weeks calls himself a guru and starts blogging a bunch of misinformation. 18:08:19 pkhuong: ah, where at? 18:08:36 I know a couple of people who've ended up in OR, but not trained there 18:08:41 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 18:08:48 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 18:08:49 pkhuong: it'll be fun! 18:08:54 Xach: On bad days I think: nobody will help me out, and I'll be stuck with boring tasks that nobody will thank me for. 18:08:57 ahaas: there is that, yeah. i know at least in parts of javascript land people pass around opaque cut-and-paste "solutions" to problems without really understanding them. 18:09:19 salex: same place (universite de montreal). If I go for longer studies, it'll be somewhere else. 18:09:24 Xach: Yeah, there is definitely that. 18:09:26 beach: i feel the same way. i think one thing that makes bad days better is thinking "Well, at least it will benefit me personally in some way" 18:09:30 beach, "otack är världens lön", don't know how it translates to English though. But I think you could get some help with that. 18:09:41 coding-by-google-around-and-pray 18:09:47 Xach: sounds accurate, yes! 18:10:09 tic: I take that as an offer. Thanks! 18:10:10 pkhuong: nice. I might apply for a job there this year (the city, anyway) 18:11:34 you could be the fourth lisper in the Scheme/Lisp user group! 18:11:34 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has quit [] 18:11:58 tic: A *very* long time ago, I quit looking for praise from parents, colleauges, etc. wrt to my activities. Now, it's just a matter of personal satisfaction. 18:11:59 mcgill is hiring, anyway, but not quite in my area. i dunno. 18:12:43 personal satisfaction is about all that's holding me together right now 18:12:50 > 12 hour days; yay :P 18:13:10 beach, that is of course the best. 18:13:12 pkhuong: have you considered coming to Bordeaux for your Masters? 18:13:51 beach: probably too late now --- start advocating a ph.d .. .. 18:14:33 Hey, I was wondering if anyone knew how to get the value associated with a variable binding given a symbol with the variables name? My first thought was something like (let ((a "hello")) (print (symbol-value 'a))), but that obviously doens't work. 18:15:08 neomage: (print a) 18:15:20 neomage: if this is a lexical binding, then it's not possible, at least, not portably. 18:15:27 neomage: for lexical bindings, you can't, outside of cheating using something like a debugger. 18:15:35 vixey: thanks, but I don't know 'a' in advance 18:15:37 beach: not for the masters (I've been working on stuff for a while). I don't know what I'll do afterward, but, except for ILog, French PhDs seem a bit too theory-oriented for me. 18:15:39 neomage: The reason it doesn't work is because a is a "lexical" variable. (let ((a "hello")) (declare (special a)) (print (symbol-value 'a))) would "work". 18:15:42 neomage: yes you do 18:15:46 pjb/Xach: Thanks, that is what I was afraid of 18:15:55 neomage: you could define your own lexical-let macro that would allow you to recover the value of the variables by name. 18:15:57 neomage: don't be afraid! it has upsides. 18:16:21 -!- kij [n=user@0910ds2-vbr.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:16:22 vixey: in that trivial example I do, but in my actual program I don't 18:16:25 sohail, yesterday you mentioned how painfull write jmethod,jclass,jfield,jconstructor,jcall arround all sorts of things that it should be easier. did you find any other syntax that makes things more conforable? 18:16:30 pjb: not that desperate ;-) 18:16:30 pkhuong: that's a false impression. Check the LaBRI page for projects. 18:16:46 Xach: Probably, I just need to design a cleaner program I suppose. Thanks 18:16:53 pkhuong: (or the applied-math people in Bordeaux, but that's not my department) 18:16:57 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:16:59 neomage: You know when you did (let ((a ...)) ... or (setf a ...) 18:17:14 neomage: in your real program? 18:17:33 neomage: instead you can write (store-value store 'a ... 18:18:04 dmiles_afk, I saw invoke.lisp/java but didn't really like it 18:18:40 ideally, I'd like to be able to use parenscript's syntax somehow but I think that is too hard 18:18:51 sohail: perhaps defining a reader macro and emulating clojure syntax? 18:19:07 dmiles_afk, yeah that was a thought. You have any ideas? 18:19:27 I'd want to have the same syntax for static and member function calls 18:19:32 vixey: That isn't really an option for me, but the details are probably too involved to get into here. thanks anyways, but I think I see some minor refactoring that could make the problem go away 18:19:35 dmiles_afk: what are you trying to do? 18:19:40 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 18:19:41 sohail: first reader macro that goes into preserve case mode 18:19:48 sorry, sohail, I mean 18:19:48 neomage: Yeah, the code you are writing is so complex I'd never understand it 18:20:10 rsynnott, I was just wondering out loud if it was possible to make abcl code that calls java less ugly 18:20:15 ah 18:20:16 :) 18:20:17 rsynnott: well worndering if here is some syntax standard for making a Java FFI 18:20:35 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has joined #lisp 18:20:41 you could look at allegro; it has a java FFI, doesn't it? 18:20:43 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:49 or clojure's isn't TOO horrible :) 18:20:55 rsynnott, that what ABCL uses the allegro model 18:21:01 ah 18:21:13 sohail: :invert can help with the case sensitivity, already. 18:21:18 which is what everyone expects anyhow 18:21:30 vixey: I didn't mean it that way. My apologies for any unintended slight. I just meant it would probably take 5 minutes to explain the whole situation and context, and I don't think I need to waste everyone's time by doing so 18:21:48 pkhuong, it's not the case that is the problem 18:22:15 it's just ugly syntax overall 18:22:37 pkhuong, my thinking is to loss the double quotes is all 18:22:41 rsynnott, I like clojure's syntax, just not too sold on clojure itself yet 18:22:45 jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:22:54 dmiles_afk, double quotes and no more jcall/jstatic/jwhatever :-) 18:24:07 sohail: sometime over the next couple days i was going to write some reader macros to rewrite the input into the appropriate jcall/jstatic/jwhatever based on clojure i think 18:24:12 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has joined #lisp 18:24:19 beach: are you around? 18:24:19 clojure really needs a nice object system 18:24:31 the current one is fairly simplistic 18:24:38 dmiles_afk, that would be really cool 18:24:47 will you let me have the source? 18:25:05 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:25:23 yes definatelty, right now i am fixing a few bugs in a proiduct i am working on first 18:25:36 demmeln: for a while longer, yes. 18:26:06 dmiles_afk, cool, I'll be very happy to try it out :-) 18:26:10 might take me all day to finish or into next day.. but anyhow i am going to do it.. but was thinking you could probly get a head start 18:26:18 no, haven't had time 18:26:26 I have to write a compiler in (shudder) C++ over the next month and half 18:26:52 I wrote a compiler in Haskell. That was fun. 18:26:54 in C++, in this day and age? 18:26:54 why? 18:27:15 ehu: I'm not sure you can without having a login ... what's the issue? 18:27:29 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:27:51 rsynnott, because 18:27:54 it's fast! 18:28:02 I don't care... I enjoy it (the compiler bit) 18:28:19 sohail, translate one languiage to c++? 18:28:33 writing compilers is fun, but I don't think I'd choose c++ for the task 18:28:35 no, will byte-compile a DSL and execute it 18:28:40 unless the compiler really had to be very fast 18:28:41 rsynnott, me either, but it was chosen for me so whatever :-) 18:28:47 oh, the VM is C++ too? 18:29:08 possibly. Might use a pre-existing VM if I can get away with it 18:29:12 beach: the other day i asked about clim and slow redisplay problems. You told me to use incremental redisplay. I finally got round to working on that program again and just implemented incremental redisply. It works like a charm. Thanks! 18:29:24 drewc: Hey, a while back you said that you thought AMOP was one of the best programming books you've read. Why is that? 18:29:34 (by far the longest part of writing a CL thrift binding was adding the relevant generator to Thrift's (C++) compiler) 18:29:41 I read AMOP, I would not come to that same conclusion :-) 18:29:48 drewc: I was interested in seeing the progress report on issue # 44 18:29:52 rsynnott, I wouoldn't doubt that 18:30:07 rsynnott: right, and at that point you're not talking about implementing in c or c++ so much as implmenting and then painstakingly tuning in c or c++ 18:30:24 otherwise, you can get roughly the same speed for much less effort 18:30:50 particularly true of c++ 18:30:51 and at that, most of the actual work was done by a macro on the lisp end; I really pity the people writing bindings for things like python, where all the work has to be done in the thrift compiler 18:30:59 salex: Also, this Saturday, I will give another Gsharp presentation. This time it's an exceptional 1.5h long, to music-conservatory students in Angoulême. I am very excited about it, actually. 18:31:13 wow! let me know what they think 18:31:28 demmeln: Excellent! Glat it worked out! 18:31:39 i've hopes to look at the OS X clx+clim issues soon, so I can see what you've ben upto 18:31:55 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 18:32:00 salex: ah, that would be fantastic! 18:32:00 rsynnott: i wonder how the ratio of "user benefit per unit of pain" works out for python thrift vs lisp thrift. 18:32:02 rsynnott, if I may say so, I am hoping the VM is ECL and that I can do a lot of the work in CL :-) 18:32:24 "Glat"? I meant "Glad" of course. 18:32:28 ahaas: the (meta-)design of CLOS, and the reasoning behind it, is a work of absolute genius. The entire idea of building your concrete abstraction (CLOS) on an abstract abstraction (MOP) is, IMO, one of the most important things to happen to programming. 18:32:30 Xach: oh, many many times better for python, of course :) 18:32:51 (particularly as I was unable to release my binding; someone else has released a similar one, though) 18:32:55 beach: but i am suffering a serious lack of free time 18:32:57 ahaas, I recommend grabbing Keene's book at hte same time. 18:33:03 ahaas: AMOP changed the way i look at writing software. 18:33:03 and Xof's HMM stuff is on top of that list 18:33:10 demmeln: If you decide to write up your experience one day, I'll put it into the McCLIM manual. 18:33:23 ehu: let me have a look 18:33:31 drewc: I've only read the first chapter, but that's how I've felt, too. 18:33:31 Cel: is gsharp yours? 18:33:34 *beach 18:33:39 silly tab completion 18:33:39 salex: I fully understand. 18:33:53 drewc: in what way? 18:34:02 I'm looking at CLHS 3.2.1, and am wondering what the constraints are on the lifetimes of the compilation and evaluation environments are for the file compiler. Does anyone know / have an opinion? 18:34:14 ahaas: well, the first chapter is really the one that blows ones mind .. the others just put it into practice. 18:34:26 rsynnott: well, it's GPL, so it's yours too, but I worked quite a lot on it, yes :) 18:35:00 adeht: it's like how hearing jazz changes ones perspective on music .. hard to explain, but tangible. 18:35:21 rsynnott: but only on-and-off for the past 14 years or so. 18:35:31 drewc: I've read AMOP, but it didn't have such a great effect on me. 18:36:10 adeht: perhaps you didn't read hard enough :). How much work have you done with the MOP? 18:36:34 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:36 adeht: or even just advanced CLOS? 18:37:25 adeht: i would accept a language without macros if it had a powerful enough MOP.. I find myself reaching for defmacro less often as i grow more meta. 18:37:44 implementing MOP without macros :/ 18:37:50 beach: like a little example how to use incremental redisplay for displaying large hierarchical data as a tree? 18:38:18 drewc: perhaps. I suppose some day I'll re-read it. I work every day with Common Lisp and CLOS. I use the introspective capabilities of the MOP. it's very rare that I define new metaclasses. 18:38:35 adeht: you ever use new metaclasses? 18:38:56 as in, use those that others have written? 18:39:00 beach: ah, cool; it's a nice piece of work 18:39:14 drewc: seldomly, but I don't deal with such things as persistence. 18:39:20 demmeln: Yes, that would be fine. 18:39:28 vixey: there are no macros in the MOP. IIRC 18:39:29 rsynnott: thanks! 18:39:35 adeht: if you want an impressive example if its use, take a look at elephant 18:39:41 drewc: I just mean the implementation 18:39:46 vasa [n=vasa@93.84.248.218] has joined #lisp 18:39:48 (or just about any other persistant store thingy) 18:39:57 drewc: What's a good reason for reaching for MOP? That still isn't obvious to me. 18:40:26 ahaas: the second you want to wrap a defclass in a macro, i'd consider going MOP. 18:40:37 rsynnott: I am aware of Elephant and the use of metaclasses for persistency - that is why I mentioned that I don't use it. 18:40:52 ahaas: you don't know it till you need it, bu once you use the MOP once it comes up almost every time :) 18:41:05 ahaas: that said, i do a lot of _very_ OO stuff 18:41:22 drewc: you gotta blog more! 18:41:23 O/R mappers, contextL bases description protocols, etc 18:41:24 *rsynnott* tries desperately to think of an interesting non-persistency application; about all I use it for is persisency stuff 18:41:33 Xach: you mean at all, but i know :) 18:41:50 sellout-ip [n=mobile@da001d0478.smr-ga.osd.concentric.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:10 in any case, I wasn't looking for specific examples for using the MOP; I just wondered about how it "changed the way [you] look at software". 18:43:45 I have too much native american ancestry to grow the kind of beard needed for all this. 18:44:08 jfm3: really long hair is a common variant 18:44:20 adeht: it's hard to quantify.. i used to look at software as a set of data and alogritims that solve a specific problem. Now i see a protocol that defines a set of data and ..... 18:44:28 I try growing my head hair out to two or three foot lengths, but it's somehow just not the same. 18:44:43 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:44:47 jfm3: really thick spectacles are an acceptable beard. 18:44:56 yes. long hair and beard is canonical, but not required 18:45:19 drewc: really? I hadn't considered that. My glasses are kind of nonchalant. 18:45:20 *drewc* keeps his hair short these days. 18:45:30 *salex* aussi 18:45:56 I do when I can be bothered; I have a mild phobia of getting haircuts, but tend to put it off 18:46:04 hence I have clippers 18:46:16 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:46:27 i suppose that for most of my life, the natural measurement length has iether been mm or feet 18:46:30 drewc: I see. I thought about protocols prior to reading AMOP. 18:46:34 not much in between :) 18:46:47 jfm3: hell yah, coke bottles that take up half the face + pcket protector @ crewcut .... i'd say better than a lone beard. 18:46:50 jfm3: someone probably sells whatever the opposite of those extra-thin lenses is :) 18:46:54 adeht: META-protocols? 18:47:04 because that's what changed me :) 18:47:07 rsynnott: low-index glass ? 18:47:33 yep, I suppose, though if vision is relatively good, sufficiently low-index glass may not be possible 18:48:08 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-152-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:48:18 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 18:48:51 -!- sellout-ip [n=mobile@da001d0478.smr-ga.osd.concentric.net] has quit [] 18:48:57 drewc: I suppose Lisp already had enough "meta" to blow my mind beforehand. 18:49:16 *rsynnott* just manages with glasses; is unable to grow a beard :) 18:49:19 your mind was thus pre-blown 18:49:20 adeht: more never hurts 18:49:31 and it's often less messy than macro stuff 18:49:43 How does LiSP fit in with AMOP? Is it a more difficult book? They seem to have a similar spirit (on the surface, anyway). 18:50:01 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:50:06 adeht: see, i thougt lisp was plenty meta, till I met mop. CL is just a poor precursor of what it _could_ have been after integrating the MOP. 18:50:27 Hrm... No input on environment lifetimes in the file compiler, huh? 18:50:38 it's a shame the MOP wasn't actually standardised 18:50:43 ahaas: LiSP is more about implementing LISP. AMOP is about implementing MOPs and happens to be written in lisp. 18:50:59 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2C698.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:04 is there any sort of guide to writing MOP stuff which will work between implementations about, actually? 18:51:08 rsynnott: it's still underspecified and somewhat incomplete. 18:51:24 rsynnott: step 1: get closer-mop 18:51:26 rsynnott: I think the guide is "use closer-mop". 18:51:31 rsynnott: yes .. use closer-mop, and if something doesn't work, it' 18:51:32 s a bug 18:51:32 there is no step 2 18:51:46 step 3 is profit 18:51:47 ah 18:51:47 Xach: I thought step 2 was "???". 18:51:50 drewc: Thanks for the input. 18:52:03 *rsynnott* has just been using stuff from within sb-pcl :S 18:52:22 not even sb-mop?! 18:52:25 nyef: ??? is the same a NIL, which is the same as the empty list, which is the same as nothing 18:52:29 ehu: ticket 44 has a status of 'deleted' 18:52:32 nyef: thus, there is no step 2 18:52:37 -!- kij` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:53:05 sykopomp: no .. the unbound slot is nothing.. a slot bound to NIL is a negative something. 18:53:12 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:17 oh 18:53:22 so I guess it's unbound 18:53:23 :| 18:53:34 sykopomp: If you want to go that way, I can provide a chain of reasoning that shows that common lisp does not allow for unbound symbols, and that all symbols must have themselves as their value. 18:53:39 ahaas: LiSP is just one of those must-have books, especially since the English version is known to be better than the French original. 18:53:48 heh 18:53:57 *salex* wants a copy, for that matter 18:53:58 beach: I've heard the english translation is terrible. 18:54:03 *drewc* just did an o/r mapper and bound the unbound slot to NULL rather than using NIL... thas not breaking SQL's trinary booleans/ 18:54:06 beach: just kidding 18:54:22 ahaas: good you took that back :) 18:54:31 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 18:54:31 drewc: does it say why? (I'm not aware of having been notified by the mailer) 18:54:37 beach: do you have any idea what the relative sales figures are like? 18:54:42 ahaas: I just nailed the variable bit-length RECORD structure in the flash header. 18:54:46 I can parse it now :-) 18:54:49 salex: no idea! 18:54:49 ehu: nope .. just deleted. Anyways, you want trac for abcl yes? 18:54:53 fusss: me too 18:54:53 fusss: nailed it to what? 18:55:02 salex: english is surely much higher? 18:55:12 drewc: yes, please. 18:55:17 salex: I know the translator doesn't make a cent when a copy is sold. 18:55:28 Xach: not done yet, should I paste the raw meat? 18:55:43 beach: ouch 18:55:50 gerd [n=done@ip-90-187-117-132.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:25 beach: yes. I'm just curious if the english sales dominated the french sales 18:56:59 fusss: I have a swf parser that can do the header and a lot of the abc frame. I didn't mention it b/c you seemed to be interested in figuring it out yourself. 18:57:00 rsynnott: she is already the only "distinguished writer" of her company (Ilog), and the glory is enough. Besides, the translation bought me a sauna in the house that is bigger than that of the city in which we live :) 18:57:19 rsynnott: that surprises you? translations are typically piece work I thought... 18:57:21 your house is bigger than a city or the sauna 18:57:30 fusss: No, that's ok. I didn't realize you were working on that. 18:57:31 I suppose the royalties probably aren't huge anyway 18:57:32 ahaas: well now I did :-) on to duplicate your effort :-P 18:57:35 sohail: close, but not quite. 18:57:41 rsynnott: probably not 18:57:47 beach, house or sauna? 18:57:59 salex: for something like that, where it's probably not just a straight translation but having to explain things in a totally different language, I thought things might be different 18:58:02 beach: so much for the illusion that professors live in misery.. 18:58:03 ehu: send in a new ticket .. there are some issues adding trac it seems and a ticket will help me keep track 18:58:06 sohail: our sauna is bigger than that of the city of Pessac. 18:58:09 ah I see 18:58:20 -!- gerd [n=done@ip-90-187-117-132.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:58:21 as for royalties. I know a number of people who've written academic books and manuscripts and none of them have made anything off them 18:58:22 I thought you said your house is bigger than the city of Pessac 18:58:36 sykopomp: French professors are underpaid compared to their US colleagues, but we have a good life. 18:58:38 probably a bit better for technical books, but not much unless you're very mainstream 18:58:41 yep, I suppose that's to be expected 18:58:54 the publishers obviously make a bit, though 18:58:55 jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:56 sohail: I wish. 18:59:01 fusss: on second thought, I think I'd like to see it. 18:59:01 fusss: And like I said before, I'm really interested in how you parse the payload when it's compressed. 18:59:11 I wonder how long before people rebel and distribute by themselves 18:59:15 it's probably similar: if you write a poplular intro text or a popular Java book, you'll make a decent return 18:59:26 otherwise forget it. but the publisher mostly does ok 18:59:28 drewc: will do. 18:59:31 like I said, RAW, at your own peril ;-) 18:59:34 tech books must be a waste of the author's time 18:59:42 esp if it is for a fad technology 18:59:49 text books are, mostly 18:59:59 except as a way to get your thoughts together 19:00:01 (that said, since the motivation isn't genreally profit anyway, I suppose it's more likely that people will just put stuff on the internet for free) 19:00:06 fusss pasted "10 hours of hacking for this mess?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69016 19:00:08 sohail: philip greenspun wrote a bit about that. 19:00:09 but it's really service work 19:00:16 H4ns: I got so confused this morning .. no spam from cl-net and i though it was broken :) 19:00:25 I wanna clean it up and make it into a bit-stream of sorts package 19:00:30 H4ns: thanks for the good job! 19:00:32 Xach, what did he say about it? 19:00:33 sohail: don't count on it. My Lisp book in French sold quite well as long as I told the students they could bring it to the exam, and I brought copies of it to my first course. 19:00:46 beach, Lisp is hardly a fad is it? 19:00:46 drewc: done. 19:00:54 academic publishing is a bit of a racket all in all 19:00:57 you have open book exams? 19:01:00 I'd have loved that 19:01:00 sohail: not at all! 19:01:02 sohail: you only make money if you write six or more per year, or something like that. 19:01:06 open book exams are awesome 19:01:16 though I managed to get through college buying about two text books 19:01:24 fusss annotated #69016 with "the rest of the crap" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69016#1 19:01:27 my students are often given the choice of open or not 19:01:29 rsynnott: all my exams are "all legally-obtained documents allowed". 19:01:29 I remember we had an open book stats exam and NOTHING on the exam could be answered by going through the book looking for "similar" questions 19:01:40 i like open myself, but they don't really. 19:01:51 you can ask much more involved questions that way :) 19:01:53 http://philip.greenspun.com/wtr/dead-trees/story is the original source 19:02:01 (most of our courses weren't particularly focused on one book, and we had a large library) 19:02:02 sohail: that's the way it should be 19:02:10 sohail: yep, that makes sense 19:02:41 my big problem with exams was always panicking and forgetting very simple formulae or methods required for the problem, so it would work for me 19:02:41 I don't care whether my students like it or not, that's the realistic situation of a CS graduate in industry (where most of them will end up). 19:02:57 beach: yes, true 19:03:15 it's a bit dodgier with intro stuff, sometimes. 19:03:31 salex: not if your test is about how stuff is applied :) 19:03:33 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:03:35 only open book exam I've ever done was a qualifier for a maths olympiad thing; universities here don't seem to like them :S 19:03:55 fusss: i found it helpful to create an abstract bitstream with a few reading and writing operations in it. 19:03:55 sykopomp: but on intro stuff sometimes that's not very easy to do 19:04:07 neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has joined #lisp 19:04:12 salex: I (openly) accuse my colleagues of "laziness" if they have to ask questions that can be answered by reading the course material. 19:04:37 Xach: gonna do that next 19:04:37 heh. like I said, i much prefer open book, but i'm not sure that the students would choose it 19:04:42 I'm sure that makes them love you :P 19:04:47 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:48 i like to ask pretty comprehensive questions 19:04:58 not that it has any significant influence on the behavior of my colleagues, though.. :( 19:05:14 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2EBD4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:05:18 there is the laziness angle, but also the grade inflation angle 19:05:31 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:05:41 i've not experienced it, but heard some pretty bad stories about pressure to make examinations more cookbook to help stats 19:05:43 rsynnott: they chose me as their manager, so if they don't like it, it's their problem. 19:05:56 apparently, repeat exams in my course were generally old papers from the real exams, available on the uni's website 19:06:06 and yet still many people failed them 19:06:08 salex: we do not yet have those pressures. 19:06:22 hm, I wonder how profs feel about a system with no grades where everything is evaluation-based. The college I graduated from used such a system, and I've been having trouble adjusting to the life of actually having -tests- (no tests, either, for 4 years :<) 19:06:23 (about a third of my class in first year actually managed to finish :S) 19:06:44 although I did take a couple off-campus courses that involved grades and testing, neither of which I cared much about. 19:06:49 beach: yes, I think it is much more pronounced here, particularly in certain segments 19:07:02 and then various other people ended repeating years 19:07:12 (nasty, since you have to pay fees if you repeat) 19:07:22 salex: I think you are right. 19:07:36 rsynnott: that doesn't always help. I had a difficult physics course in undergrad where the final exam was 90% from a list of questions he handed out 19:07:39 180 of them 19:07:48 all of which required a page or two of working 19:07:51 heh 19:07:58 so memorization was implausible 19:08:06 salex: excellent! 19:08:10 but working through them all taugh you some physics! 19:08:28 on the other hand, my flatmate who's used to be a medical student had implausibly easy exams, a lot of the time 19:08:29 i like that sort of appraoch too 19:08:32 salex: I am sure that was by design! 19:08:37 beach: indeed it was 19:08:43 i've used the idea since 19:08:48 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:08:50 rsynnott: medical exams are a funny thing 19:08:53 *rsynnott* finds it vaguely worrying that it's apparently harder to fail to become a doctor than a CS BA :) 19:09:05 that's not true 19:09:14 what happens though, is they do strong gatekeeping 19:09:21 and then some exams that are difficult 19:09:35 and a whole ton that are no so much, but cover a lot of ground 19:09:44 thing is, there is no absolute standard 19:10:00 (oops, BA is confusing there; my university, presumably in an attempt to confuse people, gave BA(Hons. Mod) for CS and maths degrees) 19:10:04 at least in the finals I've watched people go through, there is a set failure percentage 19:10:18 *beach* is glad someone is able to comment on MD practices 19:10:23 ah 19:10:28 rsynnott: no, it's pretty common to have BA and/or B.Sc for maths 19:10:33 medical finals, or finals in general? 19:10:35 medical 19:10:46 so say, lowest 10% or whatever have to repeate 19:10:51 regardless of absolute scores 19:11:01 he had that for some stuff, I know, but not major exams 19:11:35 -!- jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has left #lisp 19:11:37 mainly, once you've been accepted, the system really isn't designed to fail anyone 19:11:50 more to sort them 19:11:55 ths___ [n=ths@X4da4.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 19:12:19 this wasn't a postgrad course, though; it was a course which you started at 18 and were a doctor at the end of 19:12:26 wow, LispWorks seems to be NREVERSING my information. They send me marketing letters to get me to buy but my name appears mirror writing. "Dear sssuF, ..." etc. 19:12:35 rsynnott: so premed into med? 19:12:49 board certs are a separate issue 19:12:57 6 year degree course, with 1 year of medicine at the beginning 19:13:03 sorry, noe year of premed 19:13:05 *one 19:13:23 that's a bit unusual, often 3 and 4 19:13:26 (which was skippable if the student had decent physics and chemistry and passed a special exam) 19:13:27 im-limited-e 19:13:48 but that same philosophy applies, i expect 19:13:55 postgrad medical courses (where it's done after doing science or something) were just introduced this year 19:13:57 unrelated to Lisp, but very interesting... 19:14:16 rsynnott: these days MD/Phd's are becoming very popular 19:14:25 some of which skimp a bit on the latter, i think 19:14:39 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:14:44 (very popular for medical research areas, anyway, not clinical necc) 19:14:46 ah, that's another weird bit; here, an MD is quite a difficult qualification to come by and most doctors don't have one 19:14:57 (and US MDs aren't generally considered MDs here) 19:15:01 right 19:15:21 there's always a bit of an issue about what these degrees mean 19:15:23 same situation with professors, actually; your average university department might have two or three at most, and it's very difficult to become one 19:15:26 ph.d's are the same way 19:15:36 rsynnott: oh, that's mostly terminology 19:15:40 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AE91D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [No route to host] 19:15:47 here the equivalent would be a chaired professor 19:15:56 roughly speaking 19:16:00 yep; apparently a great point of confusion for foreign students, though 19:16:15 indeed 19:16:57 yes. also, since most of us are `professors' in job title of some sort, studetns typically refer to everyone as prof. X , even those of us who aren't (like me) 19:17:11 but there at least the mapping is pretty simple 19:17:18 it's harder with some graduate degrees, etc. 19:17:38 and even the ones that are roughly similar (i.e. ph.d, many places) can mean quite different things 19:18:14 sohail: that's the way it should be 19:18:14 sohail: yep, that makes sense 19:18:18 i spent 6 and a bit years in grad school, but could have had `the same' degree from UK in 3 ish 19:18:19 ya, I got 95% on that exam :-) 19:18:42 or 4ish in US 19:19:50 iirc, more than half failed that exam and the prof took me out of the bell curve calculation (gave me a flat 95% in the course... I went in with 60%) 19:19:59 that was my favourite exam ever! 19:20:06 heh 19:20:11 __name__ [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 19:20:21 note to self: skipping tests and classes pays 19:21:03 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-145-181.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:12 brat239 [n=none@p54ABD897.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:27 I used to do very well in the in-class stuff (especially tutorials) and badly in the exams; I tended to panic and forget simple things :( 19:21:42 *tic* would always panic in exams. 19:22:02 i was nearly stoned by my classmates once because a prof would only curve until the top student hit 100%, and I got 108% or something, next mark 60%. Wasn't *my* fault 19:22:09 ;) 19:22:22 (and if that wasn't enough, I learn tremendously slowly, heh.) 19:22:26 I skipped my whole first year calculus classes and tests... only went for exams... Aced exam... but the friggin attendance was worth 2% /per/ tutorial and 5% per test in tutorial 19:22:34 that was not very good 19:22:51 I don't even know how I graduated 19:22:59 *sohail* thanks lucky stars and gets back to work 19:23:08 ah, on that note 19:23:17 *salex* trundels off to fight with matlab some more 19:23:39 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:23:45 tic: the standard trick is: spend all but three days cleaning your room, then study like crazy for three days, pass the exam, then get plastered so that you can forget everything you learned to make room for the next one. 19:23:55 worked for me 19:24:19 i got through by testing fairly well rather than any depth of understanding 19:24:21 beach, except for the alcohol part, that's exactly how it was done. .) 19:24:24 I found doing all the questions in the book over a period of 2 weeks before exams did it.. Found a lot of bugs in the prof's textbook that way 19:24:38 beach, but even when I /do/ study, I learn slowly, but I tend to never forget it on the other hand. 19:24:48 problem is, eventually you hit a course where thi sis no longer possible 19:24:49 tic: what did you use instead of alcohol? 19:24:56 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 19:24:57 you're probably lucky if it happens earlier 19:25:43 beach, exercise, maybe? *shrug* I try to be as healthy as possible. 19:26:16 that may be why you're learning tremendously slowly. too much of that stuff is bad for you :P 19:26:29 tic: bah! The reason people in south-western France live longer than everyone else is because of the wine. 19:26:45 beach, it's because of the fat food and the antioxidants in the wine. :) 19:27:04 but not to much volume of the food, too 19:27:23 also, less fast food can't hurt 19:27:27 soda, too 19:27:29 *tic* doesn't drink alcohol, use tobacco, eat sugar/starch, but lifts weights and bikes 10 km/day. 19:27:29 tic: OK, so the effect of the alcohol is just a positive side effect then. 19:27:57 *beach* congratulates tic 19:28:00 that part: eat sugar/starch, is crazy 19:28:01 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 19:28:10 salex, what's crazy about it? 19:28:12 otherwise, sounds pretty sensible 19:28:25 beach, it's not as much as taking a stand, as me not liking wine/beer :) 19:28:34 tic: well a) impossible, and b) backlash against silly faddish starch reduction diets 19:28:36 cleam question: has anyone ever experienced anything like output suddenly appearing in the wrong pane? maybe when using format-table? 19:28:41 clim* 19:28:46 tic: I don't care what your reason is. 19:28:49 anyone here connect SLIME to a remove machine? 19:28:52 on a LAN at least 19:29:04 tic: (i.e more than reaction to anything particular you're doing) 19:29:06 s/remove/remote, too much hacking :-P 19:29:29 klausi [n=klausi@port-92-202-108-128.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:30:10 tic: my family has a long history of self-destructive behavior, and I am doing the best I can to counter it. I envy you. 19:30:10 fusss: I think a lot of people here probably do. 19:30:11 *rsynnott* smokes, drinks, doesn't eat much, takes no exercise beyond walking to work and the odd swim, and it hasn't killed him yet :) 19:30:39 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:30:40 beach, I wish you good luck on that. 19:30:46 right now I'm running a crappy win32 X server just to get full GUI emacs. too bad, the fonts are unfixable. 19:30:59 tic: don't worry about me! 19:31:06 fusss: what's up with NT Emacs? 19:31:11 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:31:39 salex, Ancel Keys' Seven Country Study that showed fat is unhealthy is a fad. Try eating pasta/potatoes/rice/whatever in the middle of the winter. Sorry, mostly fat is really what we are supposed to eat. But this is starting to get off-topic... 19:31:45 rsynnott: it's amazing, I just want it to run SBCL on my Linux box as an inferior instead of C:\clisp.exe 19:31:45 tic: you don't eat sugar or starch?! Goog lord, that's quite nasty 19:31:56 tic: I'm with you on the alcohol/tobacco part, I don't use it either. I just wish I had the motivation to exercise. How do you personally find it? 19:32:10 meingbg, my brain doesn't function without exercise. 19:32:16 fusss: slime can be used remotely? 19:32:17 -? 19:32:32 and can be told to translate paths, though it's a little annoying to set up 19:32:35 rsynnott: let's find out together :-) 19:32:44 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.155.52] has quit ["<@Dipstik> some things don't change yeah, they're called conservative republicans."] 19:32:47 rsynnott, 20g carbs a day, tops. I eat (some) yoghurt, triple creme, some nuts, lots of eggs, fish, cheese, meat. 19:32:50 no, it definitely can, the question mark was a typo 19:33:10 tic: I see. Maybe my brain doesn't function w/o exercise well enough to motivate my body to exercise... 19:33:14 rsynnott: I know it can be used, just wanna know how 19:33:17 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has quit [] 19:33:26 *beach* has been up for more than 19h and needs to get some sleep. 19:33:29 tic: actually my poin was more that here (north america), people have been talked into a largely insane way of looking at food an health. 19:33:40 fusss: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Connecting-to-a-remote-lisp.html#Connecting-to-a-remote-lisp 19:33:51 meingbg, the problem is to start, I guess. I'm lucky to have 5 km to work, so that part comes naturally. Then I have dumbells at home. Plus pushups/situps. 19:33:53 goodnight, beach 19:33:56 (see the pathname translation bit there) 19:34:02 beach: you softie, only 19? 19:34:16 concentrating on a) actually getting excericise b) volume rather than content c) get rid thinks like insane amounts of dailly HFCS through pop 19:34:18 fusss: sorry! It's an age thing. 19:34:19 salex, what's the largely insane way? I know of the light hysteria. 19:34:25 soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has joined #lisp 19:34:26 ahaas: thanks! 19:34:30 tic: sounds like a recipe for protein metabolisation 19:34:33 those things are vasly more important than any balance issues 19:34:39 tic: I've started exercising almost as many times as I have exercised. 19:34:56 tic: Maybe it's just about mind over matter. 19:34:58 "eat food. Not much. Mostly vegetables" - appears to work 19:35:00 in terms of fat/carbo/protien balance. which is something our bodies are quite flexible about 19:35:10 rsynnott: he's pretty sensible 19:35:11 salex: to an EXTENT 19:35:13 salex, until you get type 2-diabetes. 19:35:20 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:20 coffee and nicotire, the stuff of rapid hair loss :-P 19:35:28 but metabolisation of protein is a very bad thing 19:35:37 tic: i mean this in terms of 1st order and 2nd order effects 19:35:49 *kreuter* wasn't paying attention. are we the #food channel again? 19:35:50 tic: generally only high-risk if obese 19:35:51 once the 1st order is sorted out, fix your balance 19:36:04 rsynnott, I'm not sure what "protein metabolisation" means. Excess protein is converted into glucose (40%), but you need slightly more for the liver to convert it into the 25g of glucose your brain absolutely can't live without (the rest of the brain works perfectly on ketones) 19:36:08 of which, rsynnott is basically right (channeling whatshis name) 19:36:29 sorry kreuter 19:36:46 less religion, more lisp 19:37:00 salex: oh, I don't care, I was just wondering what was up. 19:37:05 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 19:37:08 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:37:35 Xach: locklace: the bug from before was fixed in 1.0.21.27, by nikodemus. 19:37:51 -!- Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:55 Sorry if we're off topic, but for a discussion to go on, there gotta be more than one person interested in the same thing at the same place at the same time. tic: Wherefrom did you get your no-starch idea? 19:37:59 just mini rant about how people here are encouraged to attempt to buy their way out of a problem via some stupid diet (hopefully involving purhcasing a lot of crap) rather than make the fundametnal changes that actually have a chance of working 19:38:33 hm. my problems have largely to do with crappy code. I wish I could diet those problems away. 19:38:36 meingbg, from my brother that's got type 1-diabetes. I figured that if carbs are bad for him, because of the blood sugar levels, why is it any better for me? 19:38:39 the atkins/south-beach stuff is just the latest idiocy, nothing new there. 19:38:44 serious question, what on earth is the Lisp negation function? NEG? NOT? I keep doing (/ foo -1) 19:38:53 !NOT 19:38:55 fusss: unary - 19:39:03 anyway, i'm off to do work for real. bbl 19:39:06 oh, that negation. 19:39:18 dlowe: I keep doing -foo but that of course is an error 19:39:23 salex, it is not at _all_ the "latest". It's really what our species are made to eat, and have been eating up until 10k years ago when they invented wheat and stuff. (can't remember the English term) 19:39:25 fusss: (- foo) 19:39:25 tic: carbohydrates are bad for diabetics because they are unable to handle them correctly 19:39:27 aw&#^# 19:39:31 (- foo) HAHAHAHAHAHA 19:39:34 tic: I see. Maybe you're right. I'm sure a lot of ppl eat way too much sugar. Are you american? 19:39:37 in reasonable amounts they are not bad for normal healthy people 19:39:43 meingbg, Swedish. 19:40:04 fusss: all the arithmetic functions have degenerate unary versions. 19:40:07 (reasonable amounts does not encompass, say, drinking a 2ltr bottle of coke a day, of course) 19:40:07 tic: me too. Are there a lot of swedes hanging on #lisp? 19:40:16 rsynnott, the key is: "reasonable amounts". Sure, healthy people can eat carbs, but I would _not_ recommend the levels people usually eat. Something like 30E% is probably sane. 19:40:19 In another note, just discovered there is a name for (ceiling (log int 2) 8) and it's called INTEGER-LENGTH 19:40:46 meingbg, a few. check out #basvrak on efnet if you're a D student, by the way. 19:40:46 fusss: I don't think it is portably 19:40:58 fusss: huh? integer-length counts bits (in 2's complement). 19:41:08 meingbg, http://www.kostdoktorn.se and http://kolhydrater.ifokus.se 19:41:10 pkhuong: what does mine do? 19:41:13 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:41:25 INTEGER length takes the high bit into account? 19:41:46 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 19:43:45 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:46:42 tic: briefly, you're incorrect, but this isn't the place. I know of the studies you refer to but the broader literature doesn't support it. There is a overuse problem, but that's largely recent and here largely due to HFCS. the answer is simple enough, but it isn't to forswear carbs, an idea which has spun off a very damaging fad diet cycle, like all the previous ones. 19:46:55 but i'll not bore #lisp with that stuff anymore ;) 19:48:28 plz, help me, can i hide inferior lisp buffer in emacs (i use slime)? 19:48:53 hide it? can't you just switch to another buffer? 19:49:09 vasa: it's a buffer like any other.... 19:49:18 vasa: You mean keep it off the buffer list? 19:49:18 yes, i know 19:49:24 yes) 19:49:58 soverton=> how can i make it? 19:50:27 say say only function name, please 19:50:39 vasa: Do you use ibuffer? 19:50:53 no %) 19:51:03 i use ido 19:51:22 or ibuffer is another thing? 19:51:32 ido more or less supersedes ibuffer 19:52:11 what's ido? (I learn something new every day on this channel :D) 19:52:33 soverton: like ibuffer, only different. 19:53:19 buffers with a space in the begging should not be listed 19:53:25 iirc 19:53:28 emacs-from-cvs contains ido by default 19:53:34 I know in ibuffer you can use filters. That's what I do, only I have a filter set up to only show me lisp-related buffers. 19:55:22 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:56:39 "Buffers that are ephemeral and generally uninteresting to the user have names starting with a space, so that the list-buffers and buffer-menu commands don't mention them" 19:57:05 vasa: why do you want to hide the *inferior-lisp* buffer? 19:57:20 (I don't know offhand how to do it, but I'm curious.) 19:58:09 this buffer prevent me 19:58:15 it can occasionally even be useful, and at worst, it's surely not a major issue 19:58:58 vasa: huh? 20:00:04 -!- mye [n=mye@dslb-088-070-020-091.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 20:00:14 -!- drewr [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/drewr] has left #lisp 20:01:08 i walk over buffers and inferior lisp prevents me 20:01:31 okay. 20:05:59 hmm.. I've never looked at ido before. That's pretty cool. 20:06:25 -!- jfm3 [n=user@165.230.132.126] has left #lisp 20:08:16 vasa: I can't reproduce the problem you're talking about 20:08:27 beach: missed your msg, sorry. found it. 20:08:33 i just hid *inferior-lisp* by adding a space before it in the sources of slime 20:09:10 thats cool, but i need edit slime sources ( 20:10:29 probably you can redefine functions in wich *inferior-lisp* is used (just two places), but you'll be tied to the particular version of slime 20:11:28 yeah, why is there inferior-lisp with its uncolorized repl? 20:12:04 i have a question about sbcls .fasl files. If i compile something with sbcl the resulting .fasl is not machine code but will be interpreted by the sbcl runtime. am i understanding this correct? 20:12:43 klausi=> yes 20:12:48 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 20:12:54 no 20:12:59 O_o 20:13:05 it's machine code with a Lisp header format 20:13:14 *.x86f at least 20:13:25 as well as non-code data. 20:13:31 vasa: if you really want that feature, you can send a patch to slime-devel@ which puts "*inferior-lisp*" into a customizable variable 20:14:00 stassats=> ok, i like this solution) 20:14:01 vasa: have you tried customizing the variable ido-ignore-buffers ? 20:14:02 so it is machine code. but i still can't use it without a lisp runtime? 20:14:16 and persuade maintainers to apply it 20:14:31 soverton=> no 20:14:35 klausi: if you were able to write a header parser for the Lisp file format and get at the appropriate code sections, you could disassemble that with any binary disassembler 20:14:39 -!- brat239 [n=none@p54ABD897.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:14:58 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:15:17 klausi: you can generate a self contained executable for redistribution 20:15:36 I'm sure you can pack it as well (UPS, gzexe or whatever) for smaller size 20:15:59 hugo_ [n=hugo@89.181.126.61] has joined #lisp 20:16:47 vasa: try that. You have to enter a regular expression. "\` \|\*inferior-lisp\*" worked for me (minus the double-quotes). 20:16:50 brill [n=chatzill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:17:12 "\` \|\*inferior-lisp" (sorry it got chopped before) 20:17:25 ok thx everyone 20:18:40 oudeis [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-227-162.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:19:15 soverton=> thx 20:19:30 vasa: You're welcome :) 20:19:51 -!- brill [n=chatzill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:22:58 mcclim is blowing my mind again. 20:23:08 -!- klausi [n=klausi@port-92-202-108-128.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:23:16 there are bits of mind all over this channel 20:23:26 :) 20:23:33 Pala-Wan [n=tc-rucho@190.191.161.86] has joined #lisp 20:23:45 hi .* 20:26:35 I don't really get how the entire drag-and-drop functionality of the dragndrop.lisp example code is driven by the dragging-output macro. It seems like it would take more than that. 20:27:40 agep [n=none@p54ABD897.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:12 There is no mention of any gesture in the code, so how does it know which command to call? 20:29:23 -!- hugo__ [n=hugo@89-180-245-83.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:02 the CVS snapshot of McClim is just a copy of the CVS repository and not a checkout? all files appear as foo.lisp,v 20:32:09 how do I "check it out"? 20:32:54 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 20:34:28 cvs -d ${CLNET_USER}@common-lisp.net:/project/mcclim/cvsroot co mcclim 20:34:38 At least that is what clbuild says 20:35:47 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-3-93-192.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:36:21 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:15 -!- tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2C698.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:40:09 besides portable-clx and spatial-trees, it has no other depends right? 20:40:28 *fusss* needs to download stuff before going home to an internet-less machine 20:40:41 look at .asd files 20:41:14 did, and searched for "depends", all of it just stuff included with mcclim 20:42:46 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 20:43:55 fusss: use clbuild! 20:44:31 fusss: it was designed to support building mcclim projects.. it's really the way to go. 20:44:47 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:45:05 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:45:15 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:15 will try to see if it plays nice with my Win32 fake Unix env (mingw + other tools) 20:46:26 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:46:58 sellout [n=greg@da001d0478.smr-ga.osd.concentric.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:55 pcl is on safari books online, starting yersterday, single-handedly creating "Lisp category" :) 20:50:41 i don' tknow if that's encouraging, or depressing 20:51:24 encouraging, the glass is half full 20:51:31 you should see it in the context of tim o'reilly remark of some time ago that he's not gonna put any lisp books on safari 20:52:06 at least i remember such a remark, can't quote 20:52:11 ah, true enough. he has been assholish about non-mainstream languages in the past, iirc 20:52:12 -!- vasa [n=vasa@93.84.248.218] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 20:53:05 oudeis: I think he said he's not going to publish any Lisp books through OReilly. 20:53:12 doesn't he have an erlang book now? 20:53:17 maybe that's more correct 20:53:30 but, still 20:53:56 i remembered something more unreasonable than that, but it's vague so i'll stop slandering him 20:54:04 i am trying to make a reader macro that allows clojure forms like (. System (getProperties)) .. what is the secret to making the . ok as a symbol? 20:54:07 maybe it was just "not enough market", which is fine 20:54:30 I've been using asdf-install to install libraries. Do asdf-install and clbuild conflict with each other? 20:54:32 do i make some type of char-replacement table? 20:54:37 -!- agep is now known as logging7834 20:54:44 -!- logging7834 is now known as logging8472 20:54:58 soverton: You could have an overlap in packages if you aren't careful. 20:55:03 dmiles_afk: the dot notation is built in into reader, you can't override it 20:55:12 dmiles_afk: write a reader for lists and install it as the read-macro for #\( 20:55:19 oudeis: hogwash. 20:55:21 In ABCL, howcome computeHash is only defined for Cons objects, how are others hashed? http://google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=computeHash&sbtn=Search&exact_package=http%3A%2F%2Fgentoo.osuosl.org%2Fdistfiles%2Fabcl-0.0.9.tar.gz 20:56:04 kreuter: dmiles_afk: ok, sorry 20:56:05 kreuter, oh right i can peek for the . and if its not there i can call the normal one 20:56:12 ahaas: Which is one is better in your opinion? 20:56:19 soverton: I like clbuild. 20:56:22 dmiles_afk: or just forego dotted cons notation. 20:56:34 jewel: first, you are looking at the old version 20:56:49 kreuter, yeah i am thinking of telling people to use + instead 20:57:14 kreuter, but i'll just make an option eigther way 20:57:46 -!- soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has quit ["Restarting emacs"] 20:58:52 -!- jeng [n=user@75.110.231.66] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:59:00 dmiles_afk: or you could just say "tough noogies; no consing dot for you if you want this syntax" 20:59:41 o'reilly just said he didn't want to publish a lisp book because "...there have been no successful (read sell enough copies to pay for the effort of producing them) for many years." 20:59:42 (. System (getProperties)) -> (jcall "System" "getProperties") 21:00:18 hm 21:00:20 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0D1EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:25 though he also said "If there's ever a LISP resurgence, you can be sure that we'll be all over it, so do keep us apprised of any signs that that is really happening." 21:00:36 kreuter, they are in a #J(. System (getProperties)) to :PRESERVE een 21:00:58 lemonodor: ok, i must be remembering someone elses comments 21:01:08 so while they are in the #J .. i teparilary save off the original #( then can reset it when i reset the readcase 21:01:13 as a marketing decision (hard copy) it makes sense 21:01:37 an o'reilly publisher gave more detail: "What we need to see is that one or two of Lisp titles breaks out and makes about $100,000 to $200,000 in a year. That would be an indication that a resurgence may be happening." 21:01:49 -!- sellout [n=greg@da001d0478.smr-ga.osd.concentric.net] has quit [] 21:01:56 dmiles_afk: huh? 21:01:58 stassats, it's the same in 0.0.11 21:02:11 i guess briefly being #1 on amazon isn't enough ;) 21:02:15 not really 21:02:47 i can't argue with their logic. they're a mass market tech paperback, somewhat common denomonatior sort of company 21:02:56 in 2005, at least, he said that there were two lisp books in the top 10k books sold. about $56K in sales for one, $41k for the other. 21:03:23 one of these publishers was quite disparaging of lisp, but I can't remember who 21:04:01 kreuter, oh i was sharing more information than asked ;) , basically i am working on a reader macro to let people use clojure syntax #J to make make the java lisp calls (jcall,jfield,jstatic,jclass,etc) 21:04:05 somehow had associated it iwth orielly in my memory 21:04:20 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:04:30 maybe someone needs to write a crappy lisp book, like "teach yourself lisp in 65536 s" 21:04:44 dmiles_afk: I understand. I think you probably want to have the read macro for #J rebind *READTABLE*, rather than change the readtable-case of the current readtable. 21:04:57 i don't think common lisp is particularly lacking in books, really. 21:05:08 lemonodor pasted "programming language book sales stats from 2005" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69021 21:05:12 in the sense that more books isn't the route to world domination, i mean ;) 21:05:13 -!- demmeln [i=demmeln@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:05:16 I really want to see a "Lower-Order Common Lisp". 21:06:02 salex: yes but they're too good 21:06:12 kreuter, hrrm i think your right.. even a new readtable.. i make even set up to read into a dynamic package so i dont pollute the current 21:06:43 kreuter: what would that be about? :) 21:06:45 I mean really, why confuse people with remove-if-not and first class functions, just teach DO 21:07:12 dmiles_afk: right. if you're just reading in tokens that you're sending along to java, you might not want to intern them anyway. 21:07:26 i make even set/i might even set 21:07:34 adeht: I dunno; whatever Lisp is reputedly not good for. 21:09:02 "using the CLOS MOP on an 8051" 21:09:11 S11001001, or hell, just give them loop and format and tell them to get to it ;) 21:10:19 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@63.107.91.99] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:10:21 CL:DO is awful, it should have been marked deprecated 21:10:41 cmm: ? 21:10:51 eh, I rescind that #\? 21:11:03 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:13:16 i do think one thing that would help would be a substantial, solid, highly maintained "extra-standard library"--there's already more than enough material for one 21:14:30 locklace: have you seen Alexandria? 21:14:31 help what? 21:15:02 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 21:15:04 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 21:16:29 larrytheliquid [n=larrythe@169.157.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:55 hefner: are you the clim listener maintainer these days? 21:16:58 lemonodor: most of those books with LISP in title are probably autolisp books 21:17:01 cmm: i looked at the page when someone mentioned it the other day, but doesn't it explicitly avoid things like interfaces to other things (os/posix, networking, etc.)? more about generic utilities i thought (which is a fine core for such an esl but not enough) 21:17:15 oudeis: not sure that helps :) 21:17:31 adeht: help uptake of lisp vs. alternatives for sw projects today 21:17:41 locklace: ah, don't care about that. 21:17:59 lemonodor: Is that Nielsen Bookscan a fee-based service, or am I just too stupid to figure out how to work it? 21:18:05 -!- H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0E702.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:17 REPLeffect: 'm guessing you have to pay for access, yes 21:18:53 lemonodor: where did you paste that from? 21:19:02 REPLeffect: an email thread 21:19:07 ah 21:19:26 bummer. 21:19:47 Would be a fun thing to have on a free basis -- but I'd probably not pay for it. 21:20:49 should LETing over *PACKAGE* be sufficient for a package change? or do i need to save it in a variable and do a #'unwind-protect ? 21:20:59 or perhaps this should be directed at athas... the display image bit in the listener doesn't seem to be working. fails differently with both jpeg and gif images, AFAICT 21:22:30 soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has joined #lisp 21:23:06 dmiles: if you just want the reader to intern non-qualified symbols in that package, yes it should sufficient 21:23:48 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.132.20] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:29 blx [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:24:52 adeht, yeah perciscly.. also this temp package i make will it need to inherit from previous package ? 21:25:09 xach: is there a skippy git repo? 21:25:20 dmiles: nope 21:26:02 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.122] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:26:04 dmiles: though I'm not sure what you mean by a package "inheriting" another one, though (symbols can be inherited). 21:26:13 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:27:20 Xach: and, to put that question slightly differently, is 1.3.3 still the latest skippy? 21:29:04 -!- neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has quit ["Abandonando"] 21:29:14 adeht, so symbols like DO, or MYVAR will still be the same symbols as refered to outer from #J like (let* ((foo (jnew "java.util.Date")) str) #J(. foo toString)) 21:29:25 oops 21:29:58 (let ((foo (jnew "java.util.Date"))) #J(. FOO toString)) 21:30:32 dmiles: what is the purpose of binding `*package*'? working around interning? 21:31:06 (in the "current" package..) 21:32:01 hefner: well, ok, it works for (some) gif images. some gif images don't seem to work (skippy problem?) and all jpegs seem to fail. 21:32:43 when it works, it's very handy. I needed that when I was doing my thesis. 21:33:05 if so, better leave it to the usual interning behaviour.. 21:33:37 adeht, yeah to get arround interning 21:33:44 sorry was afk a second ;OP 21:34:02 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:34:13 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:34:23 dmiles: that would create big problems and ugly hacks, not to mention annoying surprises like symbol-completion "not working". 21:35:06 -!- __name__ is now known as name 21:35:13 adeht, one time i was doing this a while ago .. and i had to so searching of the parent package and allsorts of wierd hacks 21:35:51 adeht, searching with find-symbol and stuff 21:35:58 don't work against the reader :) 21:37:24 -!- soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:45 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:38:04 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 21:38:18 (let ( (*READTABLE* (copy-readtable *READTABLE*)(*PACKAGE* (make-package "TEMP-JAVA-SYMBOLS"))(OLDCASE (READTABLE-CASE *READTABLE*))) .. (SETF (READTABLE-CASE *READTABLE*) :PRESERVE).. (UNWIND-PROTECT .. blah blah))) 21:38:44 oops meant let* etc 21:39:57 but both you, adeht and kreuter giving good tadvice thanks 21:40:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:41:01 neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has joined #lisp 21:43:17 -!- pjb [n=chatzill@212.145.149.100] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:47:31 __name__ [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 21:47:54 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-098-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:50:36 slyrus_: the released skippy is the latest skippy 21:50:52 ok. I'm having some problems reading some of my gifs. 21:51:06 slyrus_: i very much want to try 'em! 21:51:11 what happens? 21:53:11 -!- mega1` [n=mega@53d82dce.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:23 *Xach* can't stay long, please email xach@xach.com with a sample if possible 21:54:29 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:57:13 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 21:57:51 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 21:58:38 slyrus_: the suspense is killing me! 21:59:23 perfectionist? :P 22:00:26 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:03 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:02:08 -!- __name__ is now known as name 22:03:35 Does anyone know of a trivial proof that a grammar with atoms, parentheses, and Interlisp-style brackets (that is, a ] terminates any number of )s and a ) terminates any number of ]s) is or is not CF? 22:04:29 In what sort of situation would you guys consider it acceptable to use tagbody/go? 22:04:57 jcowan: "CF"? 22:05:48 sykopomp: It sometimes comes in handy with restarts. 22:06:05 but not so much for regular procedures, right? >_> 22:06:34 pjb [n=chatzill@212.145.149.100] has joined #lisp 22:06:40 Hang on, found the last time I used one. Let me paste it... 22:06:53 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:07:24 nyef: "context free" 22:08:43 Indeed. 22:08:48 nyef pasted "The last time I used TAGBODY" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69028 22:09:00 It seems obvious that such a grammar is not context-free, but I have no proof. 22:09:21 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:44 ";; Can't believe I'm using a tagbody... " <-- haha 22:09:56 I'm not remembering the exact technical definition of "context-free" for parsing, but have you considered an existence proof for such a parser? 22:10:24 sykopomp: Yeah, I've done that with a few other things in common lisp over the years. 22:10:33 nyef: heh. not that I mind tagbody (I started out on BASIC; Dijkstra would not approve), but isn't that easily done as (block finish (loop (block again ... (return-from again) ... (return-from finish)))) ? 22:11:18 Oops, I missed "next-position" 22:11:36 -!- antgreen [n=green@bas2-toronto06-1242511347.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 22:11:45 given what that does, make that a flet which does (return-from again) 22:11:55 -!- _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:12:09 nyef: It's rather hard to find an existence proof for something you strongly suspect is nonexistent. 22:12:24 "Finding the counterexample was an important milestone on the way to the proof." 22:12:36 jcowan: Ah, right. Sorry. 22:13:01 *jcowan* chuckles. 22:13:30 Context-free is essentially "can be parsed by a finite-state-machine with no external data stack", isn't it? 22:14:03 IIRC the only way to prove that a grammar is within a certain class is by generating a parse table 22:14:09 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D48D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:10 Or am I completely misremembering it? 22:14:12 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1CAB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:31 nyef: I think that's "regular" 22:15:35 Yes. 22:15:58 CF parsers have stacks; what they don't have is rewrite rules with multiple tokens on the left side. 22:17:34 Just thinking about this is reminding me of the only useful classification rule I've found for various types of grammars: "How hard is it to implement as a recursive-descent fashion". 22:17:38 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.197.12] has joined #lisp 22:19:40 chandler: Actually, I think ENCODE-NON-JUMP-INSTRUCTIONS might be best rewritten as a recursive LABELS or two and an nreverse instead of this destructive, list-splicing abomination. 22:19:42 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:08 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483EE36.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:25:29 I wonder if it would be worth hacking on that thing again for a bit... 22:28:59 schme [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:29:08 Ooh. Has there been an announcement of boston-lisp-meeting for this month? 22:31:57 -!- neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:20 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has joined #lisp 22:35:32 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:36:04 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-229-242.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:50 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 22:37:22 hi. probably this was already asked, but does sbcl-1.0.21 x86-64 build have no SB-THREAD by mistake or due to some serious problem? 22:37:41 ivan4th: So far as I know, no. 22:38:13 (That is, the pre-built binaries tend to be non-threaded builds, and if you want threads you build your own.) 22:38:44 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 22:39:03 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 22:39:41 nyef: thanks... I used to think that it's on by default, but maybe it's because I mostly used sbcl builds from debian testing/unstable 22:41:37 Meanwhile, I think I'm done for the evening. 22:41:41 G'night all.\ 22:42:29 -!- pjb [n=chatzill@212.145.149.100] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:43:20 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:46 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:05 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:45:38 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 22:47:53 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:48:55 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 22:52:46 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-32adc816d6fff2b1] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:57:00 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-133.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:00:55 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:01:08 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-229-242.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:57 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-227-162.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:11:59 pjb [n=chatzill@212.145.149.100] has joined #lisp 23:15:23 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 23:17:30 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-152-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:57 semanticpc [n=praveen@wifi-roaming-170-162.nss.udel.edu] has joined #lisp 23:18:02 slyrus: interesting to know someone besides me uses it for interesting things occasionally :) 23:18:23 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:35 *hefner* now feels a tinge of guilt for no doubt breaking the pathname code on every non-sbcl lisp the other day 23:20:02 is there a way to insert lisp files to latex ? 23:20:31 semanticpc: verbatim or listings. 23:21:15 meh, someone changed swank-compile-file's interface without matching the implementations 23:22:35 pkhuong, how do i do that \verbatim ??? 23:22:54 hefner: well, I haven't really used it, just got it working today. But I would like to! can you reproduce the jpeg problem? I sent xach a test case for the skippy problem, so maybe things will get better there. 23:23:26 I should read up on what finally happened with the rgb image handling discussions from a while back. 23:23:36 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.197.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:37 me too, I can't remember 23:24:26 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.92.149] has joined #lisp 23:24:33 my recent hacks went their own way and used xlib directly, when I realized I was leaking hundreds of megabytes of rgb pixmaps :) 23:24:52 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:25:40 slyrus__: thanks! i think i know how to fix it. 23:27:26 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:28:00 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-cd19ef863155ad98] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:29:57 Xach: awesome! 23:31:17 wchogg_ [n=wchogg@h216-165-145-181.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:27 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.92.149] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:35:05 vexing. I'm staring at two 50 line regions of a file which cvs claims conflict, and I can't spot a difference. What was it thinking? 23:35:15 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A26586.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:39:11 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 23:41:05 hefner: Whitespace. 23:41:07 !!! 23:41:53 hmm. perhaps one of these machines did not get the "never emit tabs" treatment. 23:42:02 -!- ths___ is now known as ths 23:42:05 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:14 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has left #lisp 23:43:31 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:44 Is there a way to get a list of accessors from a class? 23:43:54 there is, yes. 23:44:41 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-145-181.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:47 Three questions: 1) Is there a way for a condition handler to ask whether the condition it has received is continuable or not? 23:44:59 mop slot-definition-readers 23:45:10 I never got the hang of specbot. 23:45:23 Ahh 23:45:33 likewise for writers 23:45:51 2) If so, how is this typically implemented? 23:46:09 3) What happens when a handler re-raises a non-continuable condition continuably or vice versa? 23:48:07 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 23:51:57 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:01 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 23:52:30 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 23:53:02 -!- pjb [n=chatzill@212.145.149.100] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:54:19 lots of clojure love after this lisp50 thing 23:54:30 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:54:32 I still don't get it. :) 23:54:50 Does CL really smell that bad? 23:55:32 *sohail* dunno 23:55:44 say, how are those Qt bindings? 23:56:20 I've been screwing with PyQt lately for various awful reasons, and I'm remembering my old fondness for it (which, were it not for being dubiously licensed, would have me totally sold on Qt as the way of the future) 23:56:31 they are still there... 23:56:54 the project I was hoping to use them on got 'sped up' 23:57:55 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:59:07 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection]