00:05:04 pkhuong: of sbcl? 00:06:27 -!- ausente is now known as senhor_richfield 00:08:40 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@3-054.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:08:49 I don't get endianness 00:09:07 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:09:46 -!- HelloMeow [n=Mohamdu@unaffiliated/hellomeow] has quit ["GoodbyeMeow"] 00:10:44 a 4-octet "word" with value #x44332211 is represented as the sequence #x44 #x33 #x22 #x11 right? 00:11:10 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A26CE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:11:49 in the little-endian machine that is. 00:12:16 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:56 I can reconstruct the result as (#x44<<24) | (#x33 << 16) | (#x22 << 8) | #x11 00:13:23 never mind, I think I get endianness 00:15:08 logior and ashes 00:15:18 (format nil "~x~%" (logior (ash #x44 24) (ash #x33 16) (ash #x22 8) #x11)) 00:15:23 yeah 00:15:54 for some reason I thought I didn't need to do any conversion if the machine was of a certain endianness 00:15:58 Sargun [n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun] has joined #lisp 00:16:08 like not needing to convert to network byte order on a BE machine 00:16:44 whatever endianness, you still need to reconstruct values > octet 00:17:18 CL integers always act a certain way 00:17:28 CL integers never expose endianness. 00:17:40 what Xach said. 00:17:41 the first rule of CL integer club is you do not talk about endianness 00:17:58 CL is machine independent 00:19:13 fusss pasted "what's currently consuming me" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68720 00:19:28 fugly code be there 00:20:02 fusss: network byte order is big-endian 00:20:12 so you shouldn't have to do anything on a big-endian machine 00:20:24 but anyway, yep, CL hides endianness well 00:20:24 yeah, that's what i said. never needing to do anything. 00:20:42 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a764805ad363619a] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:20:52 didn't we have this discussion last week? or was that somebody else? 00:22:07 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:20 Xach: who needs to disassemble byte-code when you can disassemble Real Code ;-) 00:22:31 kreuter: not moi 00:22:53 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.250.193] has joined #lisp 00:22:59 ok 00:25:10 fusss: you might want to look at frodef's movitz disassembler. it's pretty slick. 00:25:41 NIH 00:25:46 :-P 00:25:53 gesundheit 00:27:00 http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/movitz/asm.lisp?rev=1.18&root=movitz&view=auto is it 00:27:19 fusss: even if you don't use it, it will give you an idea of what a good one looks like. 00:27:34 yeah, I know 00:27:54 -!- senhor_richfield is now known as dalton 00:28:33 dammit, everyone uses LOOP but me >_> 00:28:49 -!- avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has quit [] 00:29:09 Vratha [n=grimw@ool-4356a22c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:44 fusss: some people use iterate for the complex cases. 00:31:10 *fusss* unabashed iter user 00:31:17 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:31:25 should we abash you? 00:31:48 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.170.20] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:15 I would strap parentheses to myself and storm the X3J13 meetings if I and ITERATE were around during standardization days 00:33:27 carrying iterate-spec.pdf, of course 00:33:43 what's so much better about ITERATE? 00:33:52 it's not LOOP 00:34:05 ITERATE is really great, it's exactly the same as loop with slightly different syntax 00:34:14 that would be a easy attack to deter, they just have to take away a parenthesis and then you're unbalanced and can't evaluate 00:34:27 vixey: sounds inspiring. 00:34:30 it's good having ITERATE in the same way it's good that CVS, darcs, git, ... exist 00:34:45 you mean SVN, darcs, git 00:34:46 *kreuter* loses interest. 00:34:53 there is nothing good about CVS 00:34:59 vixey: you mean we can't do much we couldn't do at the start, but have to learn eight sets of tools? 00:35:13 yeah exactly 00:35:29 CVS has nothing I can't get from 711 (American joke ;-) 00:35:32 *hefner* checks the battery on his sarcasm detector 00:35:36 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 00:36:30 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:37:23 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:41:04 ths_ [n=ths@X74ab.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:45:49 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:56 a-s [i=root@93.112.73.23] has joined #lisp 00:47:48 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092414]"] 00:49:33 postamar [n=postamar@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:50:02 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:51:07 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 00:58:21 -!- ths [n=ths@X5682.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:22 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 01:01:16 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:02:00 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 01:03:50 -!- dalton is now known as Looser_ 01:04:21 -!- Looser_ is now known as dalton 01:05:01 -!- postamar [n=postamar@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:05:24 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 01:06:52 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45DDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:54 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 01:09:11 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:11:17 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 01:14:03 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:45 -!- SimonAdameit [n=simon@rlh.mediascape.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:14:49 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-195.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 01:15:39 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 01:20:05 xbxb [n=xb@p54A9F6F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:39 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E461C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:17 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.98.3] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:24:47 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [] 01:25:29 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:03 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:29:10 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:30:18 sctb [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:31 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 01:30:46 drewc iterate? 01:30:56 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:31:19 minion: iterate? 01:31:20 iterate: iterate is a lispy and extensible replacement for the :(CLHS "LOOP") macro. http://www.cliki.net/iterate 01:31:32 spacebat [n=akhasha@202-161-31-105.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:34:09 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:38:14 MHOOO [n=nah@0-007.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:41:47 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-243-101.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:41:55 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:30 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@202-161-31-221.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:47:05 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:47:36 pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:01 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 01:49:19 -!- sctb is now known as sebell 01:50:29 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit ["bbl"] 01:51:17 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:58 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:09 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:05 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@0-010.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:57:27 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 01:58:15 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 01:58:17 -!- Sargun [n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:03:35 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:03:36 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:04:13 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 02:04:31 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:04:43 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@202-161-23-92.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:04:50 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:15:30 -!- pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:16:53 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@202-161-31-105.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:49 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 02:26:44 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:30:24 pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:06 isomer`` [n=isomer@modemcable219.159-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:42:54 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 02:43:33 haiwei [n=haiwei@221.219.123.44] has joined #lisp 02:47:51 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:49:12 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:50:47 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:52:07 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:52:31 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:52:46 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:02:58 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 03:15:09 _jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:18 -!- ausente is now known as daltobn 03:15:22 -!- daltobn is now known as dalton 03:15:31 -!- _jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:16:19 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:16:31 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #lisp 03:22:24 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:22:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:50 -!- sebell [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1"] 03:28:43 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:29:33 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:31:35 dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 03:33:03 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-195.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:34:03 milos_ [n=mikici@92.36.172.164] has joined #lisp 03:35:52 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@modemcable219.159-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:41:12 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@221.219.123.44] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:45:21 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 03:46:07 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [] 03:52:03 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-195.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 03:56:21 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:56:49 -!- cky [n=cky@202-74-219-83.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit ["Restarting X server"] 03:58:21 george_ [n=george@189.107.197.232] has joined #lisp 04:00:24 O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-58-224.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 04:01:32 -!- pstickne__ is now known as pstickne 04:03:21 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 04:03:35 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 04:14:43 haiwei [n=haiwei@221.219.123.44] has joined #lisp 04:17:41 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47ACD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:39 -!- milos_ [n=mikici@92.36.172.164] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:30:46 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:31:06 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45DDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:38:54 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #lisp 04:44:49 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@221.219.123.44] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:44:59 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.197.232] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:45:02 haiwei [n=haiwei@221.219.123.44] has joined #lisp 04:49:02 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:54:34 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-24-19-6-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:59:39 zu22 [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/zu22] has joined #lisp 04:59:57 hi guys, what lisp environment do you recommend for linux? 05:00:43 many people here use emacs+SLIME+lisp 05:01:17 where lisp is more often than not SBCL but could be CMUCL, clisp, clozure...etc 05:01:30 ah 05:01:45 slime is that syntax highlighting major mode for emacs? 05:02:04 or is it like a debugger? 05:02:31 eh..not just that... it allows you to access the lisp REPL from within emacs 05:03:03 and man REPLs have a debugger/inspector which SLIME knows how to interact with 05:05:31 s/man/many 05:08:29 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54A9F6F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:09:13 xbxb [n=xb@p54A9F6F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:26 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:14:00 cky [n=cky@202-74-219-83.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:16:47 *yawn* 05:16:50 good morning 05:18:58 morning 05:23:49 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:24:59 i see 05:25:20 REPL is the lisp prompt thing? 05:27:13 REPL = Read Eval Print Loop 05:27:40 your shell is a kind of repl, and yes, "the lisp prompt thing" is one too :) 05:31:49 nikodemus: good morning! 05:32:13 ah 05:32:27 REPL sounds recursive 05:32:35 i guess Lisp makes recursion easy 05:32:53 drewc: how's it going? 05:33:02 zu22: no recursion needed 05:33:07 oh 05:33:10 nikodemus: pretty good, you? 05:33:20 zu22: it's a LOOP .. not recursion :) 05:33:22 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:33:58 (loop (print (eval (read *standard-input*)) *standard-output*)) ; the trivial REPL model 05:34:09 doing ok 05:34:45 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:35:56 drewc: ah 05:37:40 i've been reading this page: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/ 05:38:24 lisp will be celebrating it's 50th anniversary soon 05:38:33 any special activities planned? 05:40:22 zu22: indeed! 05:41:09 http://lisp50.blogspot.com/ 05:41:29 it's on monday, and sadly i will not be there :( 05:41:48 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:41:55 aww 05:41:59 sounds cool 05:42:25 i found a nice table that shows differences between lisp and python: http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html maybe someone can add that to the lisp wiki 05:43:21 zu22: i suspect that paper is on every lisp wiki ever somewhere. 05:44:32 drewc: maybe you can attend this next year http://www.international-lisp-conference.org/ 05:44:38 drewc: ah :) 05:45:04 zu22: i'd love to make it to ILC, maybe :) 05:46:23 -!- ausente [n=id@201-68-174-25.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [] 05:49:03 i have a friend who lives in Nashville, gonna tell him about Lisp50 05:53:05 hans [n=H4ns@p57A0DC7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:32 lol this page cracks me up: http://lisperati.com/casting.html 05:54:43 lisperati the illuminati of the programming world :D 05:56:46 why does lisp make you write like (+ 2 3) instead of (2+3) 05:56:58 does this style of notation have some inherent benefit? 05:57:09 it's weird adjusting to reading quickly with this new way 05:57:57 zu22: I assume you've been pointed toward PCL? 05:58:18 or A Gentle Intro? 05:58:26 zu22: there is a lot of benefit! 05:58:32 (+ 2 3 4 5 6 7 8) 06:01:36 zu22: consistence. + is a function, functions go in the first place in a form. Simplicity, it's simple, and it keeps the parser simple, I see no need to hack in infix notation for stuff. 06:02:01 finally, what drewc pointed out. Since it's a function, you can have it implicitly REDUCE its arguments, so it's nice to be able to just add a stream of stuff. 06:02:45 and trust me, once writing stuff like this clicks, it makes plenty of sense. 06:02:45 tsuru: yeah i am waiting till i get DSL installed Monday to download it :) 06:03:00 i also really need to buy a printer cause i don't like reading too long on the computer, hurts my eyes 06:03:29 zu22: buy PCL. It's a nice book. Definitely worth having a dead tree version of, imo. 06:03:36 zu22: PCL is not hard to purchase 06:03:40 definitely worth it 06:04:05 (for extra brownie points in this channel, don't buy a used copy ;) ) 06:04:06 cheaper than a printer :) 06:04:06 drewc: i see but what if you wanted something complex like: 1+2 * 3-2 * 5-1 / 4 ? seems like that would be harder to write in the other style of notation no? 06:04:24 zu22: actually, it's even more straightforward. 06:04:33 you don't have to keep track of operator precedence. 06:04:35 zu22: how much of the software you write is basic algebra? 1%? 5% tops? 06:04:51 skykopomp: ah i guess i am just not familiar with parsing that way so it feels like i am slowed down, must be psychological perception 06:05:04 zu22: (+ 1 (* 2 (- 3 2) ... )) 06:05:09 sykopomp: ok i will see how much it costs, i am kinda poor :) 06:05:10 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-138-16-90.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:05:30 it's clear, but drewc has a point, how much do you really deal with really complex operations like that? 06:05:32 drewc: yeah a lot 06:06:00 in C i sometimes screw up cause i forget the precedence rules :( 06:06:17 and wouldn't you start wrapping them up in parentheses at some point? (I do, I did that way before I know what lisp, or programming, was) 06:06:43 sykopomp: yeah that's true 06:07:10 but it's worth dispelling the myth of the notation as something problematic. 06:07:24 zu22: if you are doing algebra, have a look at mathematica 06:07:37 common lisp is a general purpose programming language. 06:07:57 drewc: oh i've used that before, but i want to get into more interesting stuff like writing functions to do lebesque integration :) 06:08:26 lebesgue that is 06:08:47 my friend keeps telling me how cool lisp is so i figured i'd give it a try 06:08:54 zu22: well, if you really think that prefix notation is going to be a problem ... 06:09:11 minion: tell zu22 about infix 06:09:11 zu22: direct your attention towards infix: Infix reader-macro by Mark Kantrowitz. http://www.cliki.net/infix 06:09:19 drewc: oh i can get used to it, was just thinking aloud 06:09:40 zu22: ok good! because it's a lot better than infix :) 06:09:41 xbxbxb [n=xb@p54A9F97F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:45 heh you guys have all the bases covered 06:09:45 ) 06:10:49 lisp has been around long enough to cover all the bases :) 06:11:30 heh 06:11:51 i already have a project in mind for when i learn enough lisp, i want to write a logfile parser of this game i play called netrek 06:12:27 each line has a timestamp like 23:09:22 F1 killed by R3, 23:10:03 PLI taken by R1 06:12:36 so i want to eventually make a nice HTML page 06:12:42 with all the messages grouped together 06:12:56 and maybe some graphs showing the distribution of things such as planets taken 06:13:24 i started working on a C version using strtok 06:13:30 but progress is slow 06:13:45 zu22: see cl-ppcre 06:13:47 is this something that lisp would be good for doing? 06:13:56 zu22: would you mind using dots as sentence separator, not newlines? thanks 06:13:56 minion: tell zu22 about cl-ppcre 06:13:57 work through PCL you'll get a lot of ideas about basic parsing 06:13:57 zu22: please see cl-ppcre: CL-PPCRE is a portable, Perl-compatible regular expression library by Edi Weitz. http://www.cliki.net/cl-ppcre 06:14:07 tsuru: ok 06:14:15 wow I didn't think you'd throw regex at him so quickly :P 06:14:15 thanks drewc 06:14:20 lol 06:14:23 minion: tell zu22 about cl-who 06:14:24 zu22: direct your attention towards cl-who: CL-WHO is yet another specimen of the Lisp Markup Languages category, that is, it's a Web library to create (X)HTML from S-expressions. http://www.cliki.net/cl-who 06:14:30 -!- hans is now known as H4nsX 06:15:05 is it possible to have a lisp program run from the web like a CGI script (Perl/PHP)? 06:15:16 zu22: yes. please go read pcl now 06:15:18 because once i finish this project i want people to be able to run it from the web 06:15:23 drewc: ok 06:15:32 minion: tell zu22 about pcl. 06:15:33 zu22: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 06:15:52 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 06:16:01 manuel_: moin! 06:17:57 hey! 06:18:02 how was the party>? 06:18:15 manuel_: it wasn't :) 06:18:20 oh 06:18:33 :/ 06:18:36 manuel_: family sick, project not finished. did not feel like celebrating. 06:18:57 yeah i can understand that 06:19:06 who is sick? 06:19:06 manuel_: didn't you intend to be in berlin this we? 06:19:13 yeah i'm coming tomorrow 06:19:33 i have a wedding gig this afternoon and a techno gig tonight 06:20:33 manuel_: all of us, if you will. something between a cold and a flu. 06:20:46 ah, i won't visiit you then :) 06:20:48 i know a manuel who lives in berlin 06:21:07 more seriously though, we could grab a coffee or so on monday or tuesday 06:21:16 manuel_: yep 06:21:21 heh zu22 06:21:33 H4nsx: http://www.nfid.org/ 06:23:38 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has joined #lisp 06:24:59 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54A9F6F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:25:19 bbl 06:25:37 -!- zu22 [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/zu22] has quit ["lambda calculus: ON"] 06:31:50 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 06:33:38 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:35:51 Aszarsha [n=Miranda@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 06:48:22 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.5] has joined #lisp 06:50:15 gnus 06:53:10 sizur [n=eugene@host-93-92-56-129.comunique.hu] has joined #lisp 06:53:33 does elisp have folds and unfolds defined? 06:58:12 Is it possible to get access to the contents of a variable passed to a macro during macro expansion? That is, if (foo bar) is a macro call, can the macro foo break open bar? 07:01:14 -!- ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 07:01:44 hugo_ [n=hugo@89.181.120.105] has joined #lisp 07:11:28 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:41 -!- sizur [n=eugene@host-93-92-56-129.comunique.hu] has left #lisp 07:17:47 -!- hugo__ [n=hugo@89-180-251-150.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:21:17 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 07:27:30 rlpowell: no it's not. Think about it! The variable gets bound at run-time, perhaps one hundred years after the macro is expanded! 07:27:53 rlpowell: but don't worry, as soon as we have time travel, we'll include this feature in CL... 07:28:11 -!- Vratha [n=grimw@ool-4356a22c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:28:52 Thanks. 07:34:28 -!- Aszarsha [n=Miranda@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 07:39:44 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47ACD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 07:43:16 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-96-173.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:43:26 good morning 07:43:32 -!- kij [n=user@0x50a10372.bynxx12.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:33 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 07:55:05 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:55:09 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:55:44 hello lispers 07:56:41 hello kiuma 07:57:11 morning beach 08:02:35 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 08:12:39 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:13:41 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 08:17:49 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-108.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:24:43 avida [n=amani@c-71-198-246-95.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:28 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.240.140] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:29:51 -!- avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has quit [] 08:33:30 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:47 can macros act on the declared type of a parameter at expansion time? 08:34:59 no 08:35:37 (potentially, kind of, but no not really) 08:35:51 lol, anyway it was an academic question 08:35:56 a compiler macro is better placed for that 08:39:16 avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has joined #lisp 08:43:59 -!- avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:26 avida [n=amani@c-71-198-246-95.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:34 davazp [n=user@177.pool85-57-13.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 08:50:10 -!- avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has quit [] 08:54:19 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:59:19 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:00:00 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAFE88.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:11 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-011-131.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:54 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:11:26 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-24-19-6-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:39 -!- H4nsX [n=H4ns@p57A0DC7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 09:14:36 -!- davazp [n=user@177.pool85-57-13.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:15:41 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:39 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:16:55 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:18:03 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-146-145.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 09:20:08 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:23:04 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-48-185.rev.numericable.fr] has left #lisp 09:23:33 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-141-255.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:54 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:27:52 davazp [n=user@177.pool85-57-13.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 09:30:41 billstclai [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 09:32:26 pjb [n=pjb@81-66-48-185.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:33:52 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:34:40 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:36:38 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAFE88.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:37:32 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-031-070.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:07 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:41:31 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 09:44:08 rac00n [i=UPP@196-210-171-144-wrbs-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:47:47 madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.51] has joined #lisp 09:50:34 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:51:44 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAC974.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:47 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084220.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 09:55:11 yeoh [n=chatzill@18.162.48.60.kmr03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 09:56:46 -!- yeoh [n=chatzill@18.162.48.60.kmr03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Client Quit] 10:00:18 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:21 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 10:02:33 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0DC7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:02 -!- davazp [n=user@177.pool85-57-13.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:04:35 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAC974.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:06:35 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAC974.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:45 clhs: #. 10:07:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm 10:21:20 besiria` [n=user@ppp083212084220.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 10:21:37 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084220.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:22:02 -!- besiria` [n=user@ppp083212084220.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:24:09 hello. 10:25:11 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 10:26:10 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-109-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:17 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:50 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084220.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 10:32:38 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:34:21 hello trebor_home 10:34:49 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2D22C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:42 mye [n=mye@dslb-088-070-000-233.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:48 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 10:39:35 -!- wormil [n=Miranda@adsl-070-155-056-058.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:43:37 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D86E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:28 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:49:38 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:23 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:52:18 catnap [n=terimpil@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 10:52:27 hi 10:52:40 hi catnap 10:52:51 I remember that I had very good lisp ide on my computer, but then I had to reinstall windows 10:53:01 now I don't remember what that ide was 10:53:11 does some page contain a list of lisp ides 10:53:28 I wouldn't think that there are that many for windows 10:54:02 catnap, slime, perhaps? 10:54:15 free as beer, free as speech, or commercial? 10:54:34 I don't remember that 10:54:40 complete list would be best 10:54:50 but I suppose it was free as beer 10:55:57 I thought that slime is an interaction mode for emacs 10:56:04 my ide was self standing 10:56:41 free trial edition of lispworks or allegro, maybe. or corman lisp? 10:56:44 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@234.pool85-49-164.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:57:16 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@166.pool85-54-98.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:00:51 I will try allegro - parhaps it is the correct ide 11:02:58 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:25 cffi folks around? 11:04:27 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:04:45 davazp [n=user@177.pool85-57-13.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:11:26 -!- davazp [n=user@177.pool85-57-13.dynamic.orange.es] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:12:28 but measuring ides with quality and not just familiarity, would slime be the best ide in that case? 11:13:08 depends on your implementation 11:13:26 slime works really good with sbcl 11:13:49 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:15:02 that's not because sbcl is that good, just some new features are not yet ported or broken in other implementations 11:19:18 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:21:10 nikodemus: pong 11:23:07 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:26:55 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:27:37 fe[nl]ix: the recently fixed %close-foreign-library is still broken on sbcl (and the original was somewhat bogus as well) 11:28:24 see my email to sbcl-devel just now -- i would love to hear if the unload-shared-object there meeds cffi's needs 11:29:04 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-011-131.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:38 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:30:01 -!- catnap [n=terimpil@kosh.hut.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:30:27 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-58-224.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 11:31:48 nikodemus: in what sense broken ? 11:32:11 -!- ddsmith [n=ddsmith@12.6.239.179] has quit [] 11:32:14 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:33:25 shared-object-pathname has the pathname, not the namestring -- so string= comparison breaks, and even equal comparison will never find the object 11:34:06 the thing that has always been broken is that it doesn't update the linkage table, so sbcl still thinks the foreign addresses are valid 11:35:02 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 11:35:48 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:36:00 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:14 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 11:42:58 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 11:45:49 nikodemus: I think the unload-shared-object you posted is ok for cffi 11:46:35 is it compatible with older sbcl versions ? 11:46:36 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:48:39 not really 11:50:35 but given that %close-foreign-library has never worked correctly on sbcl (that's my impression at least), you could use a null-implementation if unload-shared-object doesn't exist 11:52:27 DACODA [n=user@fb04305.mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 11:55:34 -!- DACODA is now known as dacoda 11:56:02 luis: ping 11:58:50 fe[nl]ix: in 1.0.21.28 11:59:30 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:00:20 -!- dacoda [n=user@fb04305.mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:01:04 dacoda [n=user@fb04305.mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:05:15 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 12:05:40 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:06:04 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:07:40 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 12:08:37 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:09:37 *dacoda* 12:12:16 ok 12:13:41 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@0-119.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:15:36 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:17:08 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:17:32 edon_ [n=edon@82.114.94.5] has joined #lisp 12:17:39 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:19:00 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@220.253-198-77.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:20:49 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:19 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:22:50 good afternoon 12:23:07 hello there beach 12:26:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:26:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:30:50 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@0-007.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:32:39 MHOOO [n=nah@0-007.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:34:11 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@0-119.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:35:22 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 12:36:26 -!- younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 12:36:30 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:06 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.249.21] has joined #lisp 12:38:49 Rajin_ [n=Rajin@c225120.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 12:40:59 davazp [n=user@177.pool85-57-13.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 12:48:24 -!- Rajin_ [n=Rajin@c225120.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:53:05 -!- hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279634158.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:54:00 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:00:49 alper [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has joined #lisp 13:01:57 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.250.193] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:05:10 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:06:04 shyam_k [i=75c4867c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fe07ec8796a27be8] has joined #lisp 13:06:31 what could "[\x0d00-\x0d7f\x200c\x200d]+" mean? thats given as one of the objects to define a vector.. 13:06:34 -!- xbxbxb [n=xb@p54A9F97F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:07:37 shyam_k: that looks like a regular expression, but I think you're probably asking the wrong channel 13:07:48 \x0d00,\x0d7f are the starting and ending of a character set.. i didnt get why \x200c and \x200d is given there and i didnt get what the collective mean.. 13:08:01 ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh got it thanks alottt kpreid! 13:09:18 -!- alper is now known as alpertekinalp 13:13:13 milos_ [n=mikici@92.36.191.183] has joined #lisp 13:16:32 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279634158.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:19:36 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:22:43 Jarv2 [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 cmo-0 [n=user@auh-b125172.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #lisp 13:23:44 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:24:42 how to handle relative paths, like what you usually find in scripts like ; app-path = '...etc', src-path = app-path + "/src", ...etc. 13:25:26 cmo-0: Lisp has DIRECTORY 13:25:54 it's probably better to use that sort of style rather than reimplementing a large part of sh 13:25:57 i've tried make-pathname and merge-pathnames without luck, it works with the app-path, then not with others. 13:26:33 directory will extract the thing for you but will not build the pathname 13:27:04 probably you need to make sure your namestrings have trailing slashes, if you intend them to name directories 13:27:30 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:27:45 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.96.127] has joined #lisp 13:28:19 moritz [n=moritz@U317b.u.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 13:28:23 Hello 13:29:17 regarding common-lisp: i know about specializing on initialize-instance but how can I define some code to be executed when an object is freed by the garbage collector? 13:29:31 lets put it the other way. if i have i pathname that represents a dir, how i can use it to build or reach a sub, or sub-sub directory within that directory 13:31:37 moritz: that is implementation depended 13:31:56 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:32:11 <_JFT_> stassats`: isn't a lisp anti-idiom though? 13:32:22 moritz: tell us what you imagine using that for 13:32:37 <_JFT_> stassats`: I mean to have code executed upon beeing freed, i.e. a destructor 13:32:58 _JFT_: it's not a lisp anti-idiom so much as a GC one 13:33:12 <_JFT_> kpreid: touche! 13:33:25 _JFT_: i can't imagine usage for that 13:33:55 <_JFT_> stassats`: if you are thinking "in lisp" no but if you are thinking in "c++" then it is natural 13:34:06 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 13:34:12 oh no. even c++ people think cleanup on gc is impossible 13:34:16 kpreid: i am writing a lispish interface for a C library with CFFI. Creating objects in my Lisp code causes some resources to be allocated by the C library. To prevent memory leaks I need to deallocate the resources through the C library when my Lisp object dies, no? 13:34:32 stassats`: To free up external resources that the object has acquired. 13:34:32 _JFT_: i'm not thinking in c++ while writing in lisp, moreover i don't know c++ 13:34:34 moritz: yes, that's a good use for finalizers 13:34:55 <_JFT_> stassats`: lucky you! I wish I could forget c++ 13:35:25 moritz: what you should avoid is using finalizers as the primary way to do semanticallly significant things (like closing files) as the time they're invoked is generally uncertain 13:35:40 -!- JHVH [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:52 anyway, I've stumbled upon this discussion wrt numerous languages - the results are unanimous. "Finalizing" or doing cleanup when collecting garbage is considered harmful. 13:36:41 kpreid: do you have any pointers in respect to working with common-lisp finalizers for me? 13:37:00 <_JFT_> moritz: on SBCL check for "finalize" 13:37:13 <_JFT_> moritz: don't know for the other implementation 13:37:14 why not use unwind-protect? 13:37:15 moritz: 1. I think cffi has finalizer operations 13:37:34 moritz: 2. make sure your finalizer closure (if it is) DOES NOT refer to the object itself 13:40:36 futuresoon [n=Xeones@cpe-66-108-46-57.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:40:52 -!- shyam_k [i=75c4867c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fe07ec8796a27be8] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:40:59 wow i'm on day 1 of lisp---it's amazing 13:41:07 cmo-0: as I said, you need to make sure things that name directories have trailing slashes 13:42:08 (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "src")) ? 13:42:10 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@0-007.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [] 13:42:36 <_JFT_> futuresoon: welcome to the dark side, you'll never be happy with your previously known languages again ;) 13:42:55 jft: funny thing is i was just getting into php and drupal 13:42:58 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-105-1-7.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:43:12 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:43:55 the lisp i'm using is only interpreted, built on top of drupal, so i kind of wanted an expert opinion (or 293) on whether this whole thing makes sense 13:44:04 -!- edon_ [n=edon@82.114.94.5] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:44:13 but i'll understand if you guys are busy and i'm barging in 13:44:43 as far as i can see, cffi doesn't include finalizer code (anymore) 13:44:45 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-87-37.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 13:44:53 <_JFT_> futuresoon: I'm not expert by any means so I'll let the real experts answer ;) 13:44:57 minion: tell moritz about trivial-garbage 13:44:58 moritz: look at trivial-garbage: trivial-garbage is a simple library that provides a portable API to finalizers, weak hash-tables and weak pointers. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-garbage 13:45:19 thanks minion 13:45:32 jft: there's a rumor that the only lisp experts are the 8 fabled immortals of china 13:46:25 <_JFT_> kpreid: thanks for the link that's interesting 13:46:29 <_JFT_> futuresoon: lol 13:47:18 is it powerful to build lisp interpreters on top of frameworks written in other languages? 13:47:18 futuresoon: the drupal lisp i saw was pretty awful. 13:47:34 xach: yes, please say more on that 13:47:48 futuresoon: not much more to say. it wasn't very capable as a lisp. 13:47:49 i get a feeling of infinite potential but not enough code or people 13:48:14 ok, i'm literally on day 1----i promise not to take any advice to heart 13:48:17 :-) 13:48:21 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:26 futuresoon: in some cases, i think something lisplike might be better than nothing. i didn't get that impression from the drupal lisp. 13:48:51 sometimes it's also tough to give up the nice features of common lisp when you're used to them. 13:48:54 g'morning 13:49:11 if you've never used a serious common lisp or scheme implementation, it can be tough to tell what you're missing. 13:49:37 are there any lisp gatherings in nashville tonight? anyone in the know? 13:49:38 xach: i could say the same of drupal in web development----lisp just gave me a similar electric feeling today 13:50:03 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:50:55 <_JFT_> futuresoon: which resources are you using to learn? A book, a blog in particular? 13:51:18 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 13:51:20 successful lisp and a list of awesome quotations about lisp 13:51:22 futuresoon: only don't admit you are on day 2 of drupal/php... by any chance. 13:51:40 <_JFT_> futuresoon: try http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 13:51:44 no, i'm nearing a year into web development and drupal (begun together) 13:51:45 -!- milos_ [n=mikici@92.36.191.183] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:52:30 i installed linux today, did my first perl programs today and then i started reading about list and i was insanely pissed that it seems so hard to find a lisp machine and then... lo and behold, they've built one on drupal (i always check to see if there's a drupal module for anything) 13:52:43 lol, lisp---see? i'm lisping already 13:53:02 <_JFT_> futuresoon: http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ 13:53:04 on second thought that was a horrible joke 13:53:31 futuresoon: they have built a lisp machine 13:53:36 it's called a core 2 duo 13:53:43 <_JFT_> Xach: lol 13:53:56 threaded computing is important for lisp, basically you're saying 13:54:06 ok, you're talking about the powerful low level things lisp can do 13:54:12 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 13:54:26 *Xach* says what he says, and doesn't find futuresoon's restatements very accurate 13:54:31 but is it possible that if you had a really powerful php framework that lisp would also be of use in deploying it? 13:54:46 right, that was a question---i have no idea 13:54:55 i don't know a lot about hardware 13:55:27 <_JFT_> futuresoon: I am by no mean an expert but building a "powerfull lisp" on top of PHP is like saying building a really good Tank using powerful toothpick ;) 13:55:28 modern hardware runs lisp much, much, much faster than any hardware that was built in the past. 13:55:42 futuresoon: if your client wants php/perl/python/ruby... just use what clien wants. 13:55:56 sladegen: hobby for now, money later 13:55:58 :-) 13:56:08 ah, a pg fan :) 13:56:18 futuresoon: that electric shock you got seems to be giving your brain and fingers too much twitch. Reading a good book like PCL for a while will really help that :P 13:56:56 or talk to the REPL that might help too 13:57:03 lisp looks like it would be good to manage complexity, and drupal has a lot of complexity i'd like to manage---does this make sense? 13:57:05 futuresoon: so as a hobby forget php and use lisp. 13:58:02 sladegen: i don't really use php----i use drupal---i only glue together little fixer upper code in php in drupal, although i'm also learning programming now 13:58:13 drupal is just built in php (a language we all know sucks) 13:58:16 cmo-0 pasted "building sub and sub-sub dirs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68746 13:59:00 the thing is, the modules in drupal do really amazing things that i can't imagine would be possible in lisp without a lot of development hours by a lot of people to replicate a lot of really simple functions that are all seamlessly woven up in the module-storm that is drupal 13:59:17 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2D22C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 13:59:52 futuresoon: right, life sucks, code does not write itself. 13:59:57 why is it important that lisp be done low in the stack rather than built on pre-existing functions? 14:00:12 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 14:00:12 i guess this is my struggle in understanding 14:00:24 cmo-0: all of those pathnames have leading slashes, which indicate absolute pathnames 14:00:28 cmo-0: (make-pathname :name nil :type nil :defaults *load-pathname*) is the same as simply *load-pathname* 14:00:39 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-152-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:01:08 (apart from libs, which presumably works right) 14:01:17 cmatei [n=cmatei@85.186.180.45] has joined #lisp 14:01:34 stassats`: no it isn't 14:01:51 Krystof: why? 14:02:28 ok, get it 14:02:37 cmo-0: forget what i said 14:02:39 because it does a different thing 14:05:23 i'm having a hard time phrasing my questions... what i'd LIKE to ask is whether lisp can be turtles all the way up even if it's an elephant, a lion and a porpoise underneath 14:06:09 cause i really need this elephant, this lion and this porpoise 14:06:27 -!- dacoda [n=user@fb04305.mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:06:29 <_JFT_> futuresoon: my 2 cents is start learning lisp using a proper lisp and guided by a good book and the answer will seem evident afterward. Practical Common Lisp (http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/) will open your eyes really wide about what lisp is all about. 14:06:30 you can implement a decent lisp in any language. It may be more effort in some languages than others 14:06:51 similarly, you can write tedious web applications in any language; it may be more effort in some than others 14:07:01 krystof: did you say you'd seen drupal's lisp and found it lacking? or was that someone else 14:07:16 what matters is not so much the principle but the practice: is a particular lisp any good? Is a particular web framework any good? 14:07:20 <_JFT_> futuresoon: if you never used a new tool, never even known that such a tool exist it is hard to miss it ;) 14:07:22 yes! exactly! drupal is the best language for web applications i have come across 14:07:24 at least, that's what matters on day 1 14:07:35 what matters on day 1000 may be different 14:07:41 jft: hah 14:08:15 krystof: but are they good TOGETHER 14:08:21 <_JFT_> futuresoon: from Xach earlier response I would guess that the Lisp built on Drupal is lacking key feature (just a guess as I dont know that lisp) 14:08:22 I DON'T KNOW!! 14:08:38 krystof: lol, i'm just saying... that's the condition under which my search is over 14:08:52 yes, caps are evil, i shouldn't do that 14:09:22 futuresoon: You aren't going to find your perfect solution before you even learn to program. 14:09:34 your search is over a condition under? 14:09:36 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:03 you have been given opinions about drupal's lisp as it currently exists. What more do you want? 14:10:10 ahaas: i'm about to write lisp functions in php/drupal apparently 14:10:18 schasi [n=schasi@p54A24F25.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:28 futuresoon: I have no idea what that means. 14:10:56 well i have this lisp interpreter on a framework i already use and i've been playing around 14:11:26 so far i can add numbers and print sentences... so i'm well on the way to mastery 14:11:55 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 14:12:23 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A24F25.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:12:52 <_JFT_> futuresoon: are you referring to Dript^ 14:12:53 <_JFT_> ? 14:13:10 yes, dript, the lisp variant whose user base can be counted on one hand 14:13:49 although drupal has as many core developers as linux has kernel developers, so maybe it will catch on is my hope 14:15:00 i have high hopes anyway. because almost nothing in drupal is in core, it's all in modules 14:15:22 futuresoon: google greenspun law 14:15:26 <_JFT_> futuresoon: it does not seems to support macro, doesn't have CLOS, and beeing a dialect embedded in Drupal I supposed it is a very restrictive subset. And probably does not do TCO => seems like a very toy implementation that won't let you learn much Lisp 14:15:29 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@221.219.123.44] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:15:32 sladegen: ok 14:16:33 tenth rule... as wikipedia tells, bah. 14:17:00 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:45 sladegen: yes, i see it 14:17:56 rac00nsekz0ringa [i=UPP@196-210-171-144-wrbs-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:18:38 well you can't develop for the web in C or Fortran... i don't know about lisp or anything though 14:19:19 futuresoon: A lot of people do web development in Lisp, but you aren't going to find anything like Drupal in Lisp. 14:19:41 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:19:44 futuresoon: http://www.ruppweb.org/Xray/comp/gif_prog.htm 14:20:14 at least, not today 14:20:21 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has joined #lisp 14:20:50 pjb: ahh, well i bet that fortran program would actually be useable on the web if it were in a drupal module 14:21:12 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.2] has joined #lisp 14:21:26 we'd turn it into a widget that could make heat-map mashups all over the damn place 14:21:41 ahaas: whenever I code in rails, I whish someone had translated it to lisp... it would be so much cleaner 14:22:18 Why can't you develop for the web in C or Fortran? 14:22:20 madnificent: how about a lisp interpreter built in rails? isn't there a lot of high level (not "close to the machine") lisp code one could use? 14:22:32 krystof: cause they can't compete with our adoption rate 14:22:43 krystof: php is so easy that it's widely adopted. that's the only reason 14:22:51 futuresoon: What is the purpose of a Lisp interpreter built on top of a web framework? 14:23:00 it's so easy that you can build websites in drupal without KNOWING php 14:23:15 so you can do some nifty things already on the web if ALL you know is lisp 14:23:29 Wow. Xach will be so pleased to learn that 14:23:53 krystof: well, knowing drupal makes a world of difference 14:23:53 <_JFT_> Krystof: he chimed in ;) 14:23:59 ALL i know is scheme, i guess i don't qualify ;( 14:24:11 futuresoon: believe it or not, this isn't a drupal advocacy channel, and you have been content-free for quite a while 14:24:13 i can output the user permissions of a drupal site in lisp 14:24:14 please stop it 14:24:34 ok well anyway, i'm going to just do more and come back in a year or so 14:24:54 i appreciate what you've done so far 14:24:57 -!- futuresoon [n=Xeones@cpe-66-108-46-57.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 14:27:37 I'm so glad to be appreciated 14:28:01 I built a web-framework and webserver last year... sadly, the speed was not up-to-par 14:28:16 Krystof: hey, he listened to you ^_^ 14:28:26 not properly, he didn't 14:28:56 nikodemus: feel like seeing whether your alien record fix means that mcclim-freetype is file-compileable now? 14:29:55 drag'n'drop your warez into drupal! conquer the web! 14:30:26 <_JFT_> Krystof: the worse is that he didn't ask any questions about lisp, just if the lisp module built on drupal was a proper one... 14:31:02 <_JFT_> Krystof: tried to kind of answer it but he seemed blind to drupal. Oh well! 14:31:18 -!- moritz [n=moritz@U317b.u.pppool.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:31:58 Krystof: 'please stop it' worked, he left... and well, when one says he likes a framework because there is no need to understand the code that ties it together, there is generally not much to discuss about from a coders POV 14:32:23 why are you discussing him? 14:32:33 younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:32:39 -!- rac00n [i=UPP@196-210-171-144-wrbs-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:41 stassats`: point take 14:32:41 n 14:32:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0A3C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:38 <_JFT_> stassats`: in my case because I'm sad. I guess he'll tell the story that he was rudely answered on #lisp and it simply is not true :( 14:33:55 <_JFT_> stassats`: but yes point taken ;) 14:38:58 Krystof: i doubt it changes that particular issue 14:39:05 Krystof: i removed the leading slash and kept the other. still the resulting pathname was not changed 14:42:29 cmo-0: well, you also need to think about which pathname you want to merge relative to which 14:43:19 cmo-0 pasted "sub directories" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68748 14:43:48 yes, you are using merge-pathnames wrong 14:44:04 don't feel that you have to give us a whole new paste every time 14:44:14 sorry! 14:45:36 compare and contrast (merge-pathnames *webapp-root* #p"foo/") and (merge-pathnames #p"foo/" *webapp-root*) 14:45:57 then read the clhs entry for merge-pathnames to find out why 14:46:53 thanks, i have the draft in a dead tree form, thanks 14:47:38 -!- alpertekinalp [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:47:57 alper [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has joined #lisp 14:48:35 milos_ [n=mikici@92.36.185.23] has joined #lisp 14:49:13 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 14:50:19 -!- alper is now known as alpertekinalp 14:51:13 -!- alpertekinalp [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:51:33 alper [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has joined #lisp 14:51:44 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2D22C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:55 -!- alper is now known as alpertekinalp 14:54:06 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@auh-b125172.alshamil.net.ae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:57:43 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:58:53 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 15:02:49 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:58 -!- davazp [n=user@177.pool85-57-13.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:08:55 a-s` [i=root@93.112.73.23] has joined #lisp 15:09:14 -!- a-s [i=root@93.112.73.23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:14:50 lispm [n=joswig@e177127224.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:15:33 rac00n [i=UPP@41.246.143.89] has joined #lisp 15:17:20 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:23 Dodek [i=dodek@87-205-205-65.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 15:22:08 hello, i wonder if there exists a function collecting all items from a generator? something like #'collect for series. 15:23:00 what's a generator? 15:23:30 it's described in Appendix B to Common Lisp the Language, 2th edition. 15:23:37 2nd* 15:24:03 Dodek: that part didn't make it into the standard. 15:24:33 i know. nevertheless, there are packages providing that functionality, and i'm trying to make use of it. 15:25:32 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177127224.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 15:26:45 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:11 allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:30:02 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:30:28 does anybody here have a strong opinion whether (set-macro-character ') should coerce to a function, or not? 15:31:31 (I think it'd be nice if it didn't.) 15:31:53 vasa [n=vasa@mm-83-187-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 15:32:54 seems reasonable, given get-macro-character is allowed to return a symbol 15:33:36 SBCL currently coerces in set-macro-character, which makes it inconvenient to redefine or trace read macro functions. 15:34:06 -!- rac00nsekz0ringa [i=UPP@196-210-171-144-wrbs-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:27 kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 15:34:44 kreuter: IMO it shouldn't. it forced me to re-evaluate the s-m-c form every time I made a change to the reader function 15:35:00 right. 15:35:10 *kreuter* looks to see if tcr fixed this in his patches... 15:36:30 rac00nsekz0ringa [i=UPP@dsl-146-81-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:37:06 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:37:14 brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 15:37:47 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:37:53 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:16 *nikodemus* agrees 15:45:41 (but hasn't looked at the spec, etc) 15:45:51 -!- LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:46:59 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:48:02 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:07 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.51] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:28 the dictionary entry says "set-macro-character causes CHAR to be a macro character associated with the reader macro function NEW-FUNCTION (or the designator for NEW-FUNCTION) in READTABLE", which I think means we're not compelled to coerce. 15:53:37 I think when I last looked at this (several years ago) I was uncertain about the performance implications of not knowing that one had functions in the reader 15:54:35 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@87-205-205-65.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:55:22 -!- rac00n [i=UPP@41.246.143.89] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:57:15 is coercing a symbol to a function particularly expensive? 15:58:14 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 15:59:08 -!- a-s` [i=root@93.112.73.23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:12 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:00:27 matley [n=matley@91.80.226.176] has joined #lisp 16:02:41 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:03:12 Eleanore [n=el@80.217.203.135] has joined #lisp 16:04:10 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-109-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:05:34 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:06:01 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 16:08:53 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:10:39 kreuter: it shouldn't. Should be like (symbol-function sym) 16:12:35 if there is a hit, we can save closures that call the fdefinition -- because i'm guessing most of the cost woud come from the inability to optimize away %coerce-callable-to-fun 16:12:54 then you would pay extra only if you used symbols 16:13:12 I think that would defeat the purpose. 16:13:26 i feel a little bad about not knowing the context, but i'm reminded of duane rettig's demo of acl's funcall of symbols, which was faster than funcall of function objects. 16:13:46 how odd. 16:14:31 something about not needing to check something-or-other because the default psuedo function binding was a call to the error routine 16:14:40 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 16:14:40 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:32 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 16:18:11 *Xach* will dig up the reference to make sure he hasn't completely misdescribed it 16:20:52 sbcl's symbols aren't laid out for that at all, unfortunately 16:21:15 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/e6b35b20b559249c 16:21:40 that's not quite the message i remember, though 16:22:50 salv02 [n=salva@89.129.240.159] has joined #lisp 16:23:02 sort of silly question... let's say I have a list of objects, with lots of different objects mixed into it. I want to filter that list by the objects' class, and include subclasses of whatever I'm filtering. How can I do this with CLOS without writing an ugly is-it-this-class-p function that checks for class-of? (which doesn't actually do what I want) 16:24:22 sykopomp: I don't see why that would be ugly, if that is after all what you want the result to be. 16:24:42 beach: it's not -quite-, since it doesn't account for subclasses of whatever object I'm filtering for. 16:24:59 use typep then 16:25:02 sykopomp: TYPEP is one way, or use a GF for the predicate 16:25:19 oooh, let me try that. Thanks. 16:26:03 pinned symbols, right 16:27:01 -!- allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:11 i wonder if that pays off on modern intels 16:29:43 Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has joined #lisp 16:30:05 it might make some gc-related things go faster. 16:30:18 moritz [n=moritz@U317b.u.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 16:30:28 er, permanently pinned symbols. 16:30:29 Hi. Which is the best way to model child parent relationship in lisp? 16:31:20 hah 16:31:31 nikodemus: the message i remember is a reply to you :) 16:33:00 Goan: That's way to general a question to have a definite answer. 16:33:26 allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:33:33 Goan: You would have to determine access patters, data sizes, etc. first. 16:33:48 pjb pasted "(subtypep (class-of x) 'some-class)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68752 16:34:39 I am using Practical Common Lisp as a reference book. beach, I am trying to think of as an object, as an instance of some class - where a class has certain attributes 16:34:54 sykopomp: why not just write plainly what you meant? Of course, some synonyms have to be used, like subtypep instead of subclassp, and remove-if-not instead of filter-in, but it's quite simple. 16:35:21 Goan: Yes, that's what object-orientation is about. 16:35:23 that class would have some attribute as parent, which will be a pointer to the parent 16:36:07 xbxb [n=xb@p54A9F97F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:10 pjb: what do you mean write plainly? typep does what I needed. I just needed to filter a list of mixed objects. 16:36:21 Goan: sounds good. 16:36:45 sykopomp: yes. I stayed with the GF idea. No need. 16:37:40 beach, in terms of list structure itself, how do you propose representing a child and a parent with lets say one attribute of age, common to each other. Of course, at the start we would have to create the first parent/child with no parent. 16:37:57 Xach: hah 16:38:11 any postmodern hackers around? 16:38:59 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/42f00b6d43cd7fdb is actually not quite it either 16:39:03 nikodemus: did you have time to document the new cl-dot features? 16:39:05 Goan: You make no sense. what list structure are you talking about? For age, use a slot. 16:39:15 ffx` [n=tits@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:39:21 michaelw: nope, sorry 16:39:40 alrighty, then I'll do it 16:40:22 beach, let me rephrase. Using lists in lisp, how can I show a child-parent relationship 16:40:44 Goan: You wouldn't use list for that. 16:40:54 oh 16:40:58 (setf *print-circle* t) '(#1=(person :role 'parent) (person :role 'child :parent #1#)) 16:41:02 michaelw: thanks 16:42:02 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:08 Xach: maybe you should be looking for tsiivola instead of nikodemus? i was probably using my uni account then 16:42:23 pjb, that was way cool 16:42:53 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:02 -!- alpertekinalp [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:44:03 pjb, what do you call this technique so that I can read some online help about it 16:44:23 #= and ## are dispatching reader macros. 16:44:25 clhs: #= 16:44:25 clsh #= 16:44:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm 16:45:18 They are used to read a s-exp with references to parts of itself, including circular references. (Not circular in this case, since parent/child is normally a tree). 16:46:02 (setf *print-circle* nil) '(#1=(person :role 'parent) (person :role 'child :parent #1#)) prints as ((PERSON :ROLE 'PARENT) (PERSON :ROLE 'CHILD :PARENT (PERSON :ROLE 'PARENT))) 16:46:20 setting *print-circle* to T allows you to see that there are some structure sharing in the list. 16:46:40 -!- salv02 [n=salva@89.129.240.159] has left #lisp 16:46:54 two more qns, how do we add a child below the existing child, and how do we extract the parent info from the new child 16:47:18 Goan: don't use lists for that. Use instances of standard-class. 16:47:33 Goan: you would not normally try to do that with a single expression 16:47:35 Goan: first you don't use literal data, since you want to mutate it. 16:48:00 yes, I agree 16:48:10 defclass is the way to go then 16:48:40 (let* ((parent (make-node)) (child (make-node :parent parent)) (grandchild (make-node :parent child))) ...) ; etc 16:49:10 if I am not wrong make-node is coming from defstruct, right? 16:49:18 could be anything 16:49:24 Could be lists... 16:49:44 could be lambdas (read too much SICP lately) 16:50:26 in other words: just like in any other language. the only question is how you model the nodes -- defclass, defstruct, indexes into vectors, lists, magic keys into hashtables, excotic encodings into strings, integer or bitvectors... 16:50:54 but unless you have a real reason to use something else, you should probably start with defclass 16:50:59 (child (make-node :parent parent)) .. I understand that this expression will be translated in the form of lists eventually. what'll be a typical representation for such a child/parent 16:51:08 though i could be wrong 16:51:19 no lists need to be involved 16:51:30 Goan: how are you learning lisp? 16:51:30 Goan: we just said there's no typical representation! 16:51:43 practical common lisp 16:52:01 what chapter are you in? 16:52:14 6 as of now. 16:52:33 but i have been reading in an ad-hoc fashion 16:52:50 so i also know a lil' about number, strings 16:52:52 start from the beginning 16:53:01 But if you want a list based representation, and you are lazy, you will use defstruct: (defstruct (node :named (:type list)) name children) (make-node :name 'john :children (list (make-node :name 'james))) 16:53:41 because "I understand that this expression will be translated in the form of lists eventually" indicates you haven't got the basics in place 16:54:01 you you're working with the wrong mental model learning will be so much harder 16:54:10 Goan: compare with: (defstruct node name children) (make-node :name 'john :children (list (make-node :name 'james))) 16:54:33 -!- rac00nsekz0ringa [i=UPP@dsl-146-81-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:54:55 s/you you're/if/ 16:55:12 pjb, the earlier one can allow to have parents of type lists 16:55:14 With lists, accessing the fields will be in O(N) with N = number of fields. With normal structures (or vectors) it would be O(1). Do you still want to use lists to represent your persons? 16:55:32 nopes 16:55:35 Goan: Not more than the later. 16:55:36 no no no no 16:56:05 though for small N, they might still be faster than e.g. a O(1) hash-table 16:56:16 benny [n=benny@i577A17E9.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:56:23 alright, i should first read about classes 16:56:32 though you shouldn't worry about that until you need it 16:57:23 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:58:05 oh nice, defclass also has defmethods to work on those objects .. similar to java 16:58:18 Far from it. 16:58:48 But as a first approximation, you can indeed write methods for classes of objects. 16:59:51 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:53 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:52 (defclass person () (name age parent)) 17:02:18 where name, age, and parent are slots 17:02:49 uhhh... does that work? 17:03:15 why it shouldn't? 17:03:17 yeah, defines just slots, no accessors 17:03:23 alright 17:03:48 apart from parent, rest two slots should work.. i am not sure about parent, and how i am going to store person info in that slot. :-) 17:04:14 Goan: parents are usually persons too 17:04:30 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:04:40 exactly but given a child, I should be able to retrieve his parents information 17:05:40 Goan: so, you store in the slot 'parent' instance of the class 'person' 17:05:58 right! 17:06:07 or two instances, e.g. in a cons cell 17:06:48 or better define class not with a single parent, but with mother and father 17:07:10 in separate slots 17:07:24 will you include polygamy? then father could be a list... 17:08:45 Hun: children are single-mothered and single-fathered 17:08:51 (defclass person () (name age (parent (make-instance 'person :name 'John :age 35 :parent nil)))) 17:09:04 something similar 17:09:32 what are you trying to do? 17:09:37 sorry 17:09:44 it seems you mistook classes for instances 17:09:51 yea, 17:10:01 oneunshamed [n=hoffmann@ip68-97-237-165.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:19 Goan: it's better to read PCL on classes before 17:10:34 not Lisp related, but - if any of you guys are into collecting celebrity memorbilla, etc - company I am working for is streamcasting (w/ interactive bidding) the Bob Hope estate auction going on right now in Hollywood. http://www.auctionnetwork.com/ 17:10:39 stassats` I have it opened in front of me. :) 17:11:17 Goan: half of the work done, then you just need to read it 17:11:26 hehe, yea 17:12:05 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 17:12:08 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*=hoffmann@*.ok.ok.cox.net 17:12:16 -!- Xach [n=xach@207.5.178.18] has been kicked from #lisp 17:12:17 The only thing is it does not seem to discuss about parent/child relationships. 17:13:02 they have explained the classes with help of a bank account domain.. which does not have any parents 17:13:23 besiria` [n=user@83.212.85.49] has joined #lisp 17:13:30 you want to be able to fetch children of a given parent? 17:13:46 Yes 17:14:13 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 17:14:24 no, the other way around.. parent for a given child 17:15:04 the latter is simpler --- just see the value of the slot `parent' 17:15:48 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084220.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:15:48 can you give me an example of class person.. with a child created and retrieval of its parent info 17:16:52 I am taking an assumption that the first child somehow did not have any parent 17:17:20 so he's like the super grand parent of all future generations of the family. 17:19:44 you could do a circularity and make him his own parents 17:19:56 the greeks liked to do that i think 17:20:09 nopes, the first child with no parents 17:20:28 and rest of the child with parent infor attached to their instances. 17:20:37 parents* = parent 17:21:25 stassats` pasted "parents for Goan" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68757 17:21:37 something like this 17:22:34 I was almost close to this structure :) 17:23:33 this looks really intuitive 17:24:08 Goan: it will help not to think of them as a lot like methods and classes in other systems you might be familiar with 17:24:19 Goan: the generic function approach is quite different 17:28:32 Goan: and i forgot 'retrieval of its parent info': simply (mother http://paste.lisp.org/display/68758 17:29:55 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:29:57 dynamic-extent + sb-ext:make-weak-pointer .. i'm thinking the first one should return NIL for second value .. and the last one shouldn't crash SBCL .. but, then again .. dynamic-extent might be something like "the user asked for it" ... idunno 17:31:28 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:17 Goan annotated #68757 with "defclass " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68757#1 17:32:35 stassats`: it works :) 17:32:37 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 17:33:00 besiria`` [n=user@ppp083212086175.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 17:33:05 Goan: you don't need slot-value 17:33:06 Goan: as long as you have accessors, you can use (name (mother *John*)) 17:33:09 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-109-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:34 ..it kinda messes things up though .. maybe sbcl could do a check for dynamic-extent when safety >= speed or something 17:34:45 -!- Eleanore [n=el@80.217.203.135] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:35:16 (as a temp. workaround ..) 17:36:29 ..no sbcl-devs around? .. i'll try sbcl-devel 17:39:19 -!- besiria` [n=user@83.212.85.49] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:41:11 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:44:47 dudeman [n=dudeman@unaffiliated/dudeman] has joined #lisp 17:44:55 -!- dudeman [n=dudeman@unaffiliated/dudeman] has left #lisp 17:45:34 all hard at work, no doubt, on the glorious future of sbcl 17:45:52 :D 17:46:11 *Xach* builds a new sbcl, gets cracking on the "compiler" 17:46:30 If I were to pass this object to another function identify-mother, how do I pass this John object 17:46:37 The Compiler .. what are you working on? 17:47:05 lnostdal: a sbcl script that produces executables. 17:47:22 lnostdal: not a real compiler, but an answer to what people think of when they ask for one. 17:47:43 ah, yes .. i've seen the latest additions --script etc. 17:47:56 ..it removes a "mental block" i guess 17:48:09 and replaces it with a mental skyscraper 17:48:16 lol 17:48:17 lnostdal: that, plus a change to allow saving runtime options, so the embedded-core output can have total control over argv 17:48:27 ok 17:48:28 i think the two together can make a passable faux "compiler" 17:49:09 hm, we (or "they"?) really need a separation between "compiler" / "compilation" and "executables" 17:49:11 lnostdal: dynamic-extent checks are not really feasible 17:49:25 lnostdal: i separate them by putting it in quotes! 17:49:39 hehe, yeah 17:50:01 so dx is definitely a you ask for it, you get it kind of feature 17:51:41 yeah, i guess it falls outside the "GC-type thing" which the "weak-pointer thing" is connected to .. (gawd i suck at english etc...) 17:53:04 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:53:04 I guess weak pointers to stack-allocated objects could be forbidden completely 17:54:54 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 17:54:57 i can see it work .. but i have no idea if adds too much overhead, extra checking etc. 17:55:02 if it* 17:55:07 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:56:39 no, that would be an easy check 17:58:56 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:59:05 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:11 -!- matley [n=matley@91.80.226.176] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:59:11 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:00:33 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 18:02:00 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 18:02:36 -!- younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 18:05:32 qbg [n=qbg@74-33-25-226.dsl1.mond.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:32 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 18:06:46 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:19 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:14:31 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 18:14:54 salex [n=user@10.13.233.64.transedge.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:04 'afternoon 18:15:11 yo salex 18:15:46 how goes 18:15:47 ? 18:15:57 trying to hack a bit while both kids are snoozing 18:16:10 heh. i'm hacking a bit in a mall (wife's shopping) 18:16:28 nice 18:16:37 upscale sort of a mall --- free wifi 18:17:06 actually, this might be the canonical upscale mall. it's a weird place 18:17:55 what are you working on these days? 18:18:21 at the moment, a sbcl script that does what many misguided people think a compiler should do 18:18:41 take a filename as input, produce a single-file executable you can run as output 18:18:53 hte holy grail ;) 18:18:58 some new sbcl features made me want to give it a whirl 18:19:15 salex: it's partly tongue in cheek...the "hello, world" executable on my 64-bit system is 41 megs 18:19:35 yeah, but it includes a compier. so there is that :P 18:19:52 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 18:20:23 Xach: if only you had a 32-bit machine, you would save tens of megabytes! 18:20:44 magic! 18:23:06 salex: which mall is that? 18:23:08 Xach: hardly matters these days 18:23:18 everyone has huge hard disks and broadband 18:23:34 salex: i like to know these things! :) 18:23:43 rsynnott: developers, anyway 18:24:02 -!- milos_ [n=mikici@92.36.185.23] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:24:14 drewc: galleria in houston 18:25:18 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:28:05 oh, everyone has broadband these days, I think 18:28:30 manifestly untrue 18:28:31 I mean, you can get it in pre-paid mobile phone form now 18:28:52 Xach: regarding that "misguided people": isn't it still the easiest solution for application delivery? 18:28:53 and if you live in a dense urban center, it might even work 18:29:03 not in russia, in small cities broadband is very expensive 18:29:52 moritz: more about terminology than technique 18:29:58 expensive or just not available 18:30:07 moritz: all lisps have compilers 18:30:23 ah, that's why you need firm govt. regulation :) 18:30:49 some don't have interpreters, though :) 18:30:51 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-195.kosnet.ru] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:32:55 -!- allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:33:19 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:33:30 Xach: don't you worry that sucha script wil just confuse the issue further? 18:33:39 Eleanore [n=el@80.217.203.135] has joined #lisp 18:34:10 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has left #lisp 18:34:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:35:19 rsynnott: not too much. 18:35:45 it makes something that's already possible slightly easier. 18:38:26 wandering around somewhere near the possible/advisable line ;) 18:39:04 -!- hnaz [n=hnaz@saeurebad.de] has left #lisp 18:39:28 did someone create some visualizations of SBCL's IR1 with graphviz, or do I remember incorrectly? (it sounds like it might be something from lichtblau's project wishlist, too) 18:42:12 hefner: jsnell had something in cl-dot: http://svn.foldr.org/~michaelw/cl-dot/trunk/examples/sb-c-example.lisp 18:44:40 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:48:18 Xach: are you planning on getting that script to do the same, but for an .asd file? :) 18:48:25 -that- would be quite nice. 18:51:33 no need 18:53:30 just make your file-to-be-compiled load the asd first. 18:54:10 hm 18:54:13 rsynnott: i imagine that fast internet of any kind is difficult to find on, say, easter island. :) 18:55:25 how big are CCL cores on linux/x86? 18:56:17 with satellites you can have internet everywhere on earth 18:56:34 drewc: 13M 18:56:43 stassats`: expensive. very 18:56:46 18M on 64 18:57:04 stassats`: thanks. 18:58:27 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:34 stassats`: I would imagine that has quite some lag 18:59:03 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:08 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:59:35 robot_jesus [n=csanders@hoovers-241.hoovers.com] has joined #lisp 18:59:40 drewc: besides satellite, probably :) 18:59:46 stassats`: except the polar ice caps 19:00:15 and, of course, anywhere where you don't have line of sight to the satellite 19:00:43 *rsynnott* fumes; am being tortured by an elderly server with hard disk controller issues 19:01:48 -!- salex [n=user@10.13.233.64.transedge.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:03:40 from what i know about _portable_ satellite internet (irridium, globalstar), i would hardly call it broadband. 19:03:47 -!- besiria`` [n=user@ppp083212086175.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:04:07 9600 bits/s :) 19:04:45 is enough for everyone 19:04:53 actually .. looking around these things are getting faster and coming down in price. 19:05:12 "coming down" isn't the best association with satellites (: 19:05:27 easter island here i come! 19:08:39 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:02 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:24 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 19:14:56 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:15:35 rsynnott: the iridium sat phones work at the poles apparently. 19:19:30 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:19:51 Goan_ [n=Goan@129.21.241.38] has joined #lisp 19:22:42 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:23:06 -!- Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:23:49 -!- Goan_ is now known as Goan 19:24:25 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27:00 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has left #lisp 19:31:42 nicou [n=nicou@host72.190-136-68.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:32:29 hello 19:32:41 -!- nicou [n=nicou@host72.190-136-68.telecom.net.ar] has left #lisp 19:33:44 hefner: I think lichtblau did something 19:35:33 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.96.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:36:06 cddr [n=user@user-5af1bc34.tcl123.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:36:38 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:25 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:04 younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:39:39 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 19:48:54 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.96.127] has joined #lisp 19:49:08 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:58:21 -!- cddr [n=user@user-5af1bc34.tcl123.dsl.pol.co.uk] has quit ["ERC Version 5.1.4 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:01:57 -!- hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:27 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:02:41 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:39 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 20:07:31 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has quit ["Giant robots are cool."] 20:08:03 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-109-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 20:08:19 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 20:12:49 -!- qbg [n=qbg@74-33-25-226.dsl1.mond.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:28 Xach: btw I saw your 'blog about it' remark. I dn't happen to have something to apply it to at the moment though 20:14:55 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 20:15:02 on a completely different topic, re sbcl-devel 'opposite recommendation', using cvs (whatever) instead of distro, I wonder if that's pushing in the wrong dimension 20:15:18 *chandler* just sent mail about that 20:15:27 why not improve the distro situation? 20:15:38 including caustic remarks about SLIME made with poor grammar! 20:15:45 (I do understand that e.g. debian is very slow about releases) 20:15:50 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:16:27 ...how about a separate slime release organization? 20:17:17 I am tempted to make monthly snapshots of SLIME at or around SBCL release time, but I have no way to know if what's there actually works, and there's a lot of features I don't use 20:17:46 making releases is work 20:17:51 if you want to do that work, Just Do It 20:17:57 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 20:18:46 I don't think it's possible to make releases without cooperation from the developers. 20:19:53 chandler: prxq did it 20:20:02 sure it is: fork from a known place, cherry pick bug fixes, work on other bug fixes, release 20:20:17 *rsynnott* hates the horrible computers :( 20:21:17 Krystof: that seems like excess work. I imagine releases of the form "this cvs version is working for me [/my test setup/my co-release-managers], so I declare it a release" 20:21:29 automate all the tarballing, of course 20:23:06 How can I write a macro M such that (M FOO) evaluates to they keyword :FOO? 20:23:19 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-011-131.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:03 kpreid: WRT slow Debian releases, there's a possible workaround via backports.org. 20:24:13 Krystof: I'm not a SLIME developer. I have very little knowledge of how the elisp side of it is organized, or how to fix bugs that involve knowledge of elisp beyond "assume it's CL with a terrible dynamic-scope accent". That's what I meant by needing cooperation from (at least some) developers. 20:24:14 (defmacro m (name) (intern (string name) 'keyword)) 20:24:49 if you just want to find existing ones and not create any, change intern to find-symbol 20:25:21 hugo__ [n=hugo@89.181.124.208] has joined #lisp 20:25:34 wonderful. intern magic. thanks a lot :-) 20:26:29 what exactly are you trying to do? ;) 20:26:43 writing huge macros 20:26:59 which define a lot of wrapper code for a c library 20:27:01 and where does (m foo) help against :foo? i don't get it 20:27:41 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:34 my macro m defines a class and several generic functions and methods. i'd like to be able to say e.g. (set-property my-window-object :title "Blah") 20:30:03 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-83-187-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 20:30:20 vasa [n=vasa@mm-83-187-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 20:30:22 and the input to my macro M includes a list of "properties" for each class instance. so: (m :name window :properties (title width)) 20:30:24 for example 20:30:29 does that make sense? 20:31:11 hmm... i still don't get it. if it makes sense to you, stick with it :) 20:32:07 moritz: why don't you use :title and :width from the start? 20:34:10 good question. first: it looks nicer this way. second: i wanted to figure out how to do it. 20:34:35 the figuring-out-thingy is easy. ask it loud on #lisp or c.l.l ;) 20:34:37 well, feel free to ignore me, but the first is not good reason 20:35:31 chandler: so, it's not possible for _you_ to make releases without cooperation from developers 20:41:11 -!- hugo_ [n=hugo@89.181.120.105] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:42:51 proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 20:43:14 it's note making releases that's hard, it's supporting them. 20:43:18 s/note/not 20:47:08 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:38 dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:49:33 madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.41] has joined #lisp 20:57:05 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:58:04 hi, what would be a function similar to mapcar, but which outputs smaller number of results than the original list, using certain criteria, for example: '((1 a) (1 b) (2 a) (3 a)) --> ((1 '(a b)) (2 a) (3 a)) ? 20:58:15 basically, to do some grouping 20:58:50 in a loop, I would use a temporary hash to group items 20:58:52 reduce 20:59:41 madnific` [n=user@83.101.2.41] has joined #lisp 21:00:54 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C064.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:34 Krystof: I am reading hyperspec and I am not sure if I know how to apply reduce here. 21:01:44 let me write a loop with a hash and paste it 21:02:23 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:06 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:04:30 hi. 21:08:29 -!- mye [n=mye@dslb-088-070-000-233.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:42 do i understand 5.1.2.3 VALUES Forms as Places right, that (setf (values ....) values-form) is a kind of multiple-value-setf? 21:09:02 puchacz pasted "group-by?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68773 21:09:37 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0DC7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:09:39 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 21:09:44 Krystof or somebody else, I would like to write something like above, but without loops, in mapcar / reduce style 21:12:22 patco444 [n=pldianov@212.25.60.98] has joined #lisp 21:13:15 -!- patco444 [n=pldianov@212.25.60.98] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:14:56 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:29 -!- madnific` [n=user@83.101.2.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:49 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-83-187-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:19:58 trebor_home: yes 21:20:05 futuresoon [n=Xeones@cpe-66-108-46-57.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:48 ben_____ [n=benj@dsl254-082-025.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:19 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:22:18 Krystof annotated #68773 with "Not recommended, but" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68773#1 21:25:01 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:16 initialize-instance gives me headache. could anyone help me understand what's wrong with this (6 line long) code? http://paste.lisp.org/display/68774 21:26:42 clisp complains with "*** - MAKE-CONDITION: cannot find a CONDITION class that is a subtype of NIL" and i don't really understand the problem. 21:26:50 (nor the error message) 21:27:54 moritz: CONDITION is a class that's specified by common lisp 21:27:57 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2D22C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:28:04 errr, wait 21:28:08 I should look at the paste first (: 21:28:27 moritz: well, one thing that is wrong is calling call-next-method from your :after method 21:30:13 there is no next method, because the :after methods are run in most-specific-last order 21:31:04 uh 21:31:18 damn 21:31:41 is there an easy fix for this? 21:32:32 my idea was to pass several arguments to (make-instance ...) so that every initialize-instance in the object hierarchy can pick out IT'S arguments 21:32:35 Krystof: thanks, looks clearer. why is it not recommended though? 21:33:08 I find it much less clear 21:33:30 moritz: all the :after methods will be called, and will automatically pick out the arguments they want if you specify them using &key 21:33:48 in other words, I think the easy fix is to try less hard and let the protocol do the work for you 21:34:09 that sounds good 21:34:16 puchacz: it looks much less clear to me 21:34:23 actually i am using &rest, not &key. 21:34:30 is that a problem? 21:34:40 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:43 it's a problem in that it's not using the protocol to do the work for you 21:34:55 alright, &key. 21:34:58 thank you 21:35:30 Krystof: it helped me :-) so no worries, I like it 21:35:42 moritz: don't forget &allow-other-keys 21:35:50 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:35:57 _lispknownothing [n=reed@adsl-1-207-31.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:57 antifuchs: no, do forget it; the initialization protocol is a special case 21:36:03 oh 21:36:25 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 21:36:43 :-) 21:36:45 ah, I see. nice. 21:37:24 puchacz: instead of append-to-multihash, you could use: (push value (gethash key hash nil)) ; if order matters, just calls (nreverse (gethash key hash)) instead of (gethash key hash) when you dump the table. 21:37:26 I find it funny that I have been using lisp for quite a few years and still learn something new almost every day (-: 21:38:37 <_lispknownothing> Might I ask utterly noobish question? Point me to a better channel if not. 21:38:53 antifuchs: I could learn this kind of thing a thousand times, because I tend to forget it as soon as I've learned it :-) 21:38:58 _lispknownothing: don't ask to ask, just ask 21:39:30 chandler: I might even have learned it - and forgotten about it... but the joy of learning it as a new thing remains (: 21:39:30 pjb: thanks. order does not matter, otherwise I would use a queue instead of a list 21:39:35 as an out-list 21:39:38 puchacz: (loop with result for (key datum) in list for x = (assoc key result) if x do (push datum (cdr x)) else do (setf result (acons key (list datum) result)) finally (return result)) 21:39:58 admittedly, yes, my reduce is simpler than your version. But my loop is simpler than my reduce 21:39:58 <_lispknownothing> I'm using SLIME, and everything seems fine, but when I try to compile it says "C-c C-c is undefined" 21:40:36 What mode is the current buffer in? 21:40:59 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 21:41:04 Krystof: you are right, loop is the winner. I am taking the loop 21:41:08 <_lispknownothing> lisp 21:41:34 <_lispknownothing> with sbcl 21:42:15 What do you have in your .emacs to set up SLIME? 21:42:17 lisppaste: url? 21:42:17 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 21:42:22 (paste the code there) 21:42:36 <_lispknownothing> (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/bin/sbcl") 21:42:36 <_lispknownothing> (add-to-list 'load-path "/usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/") 21:42:36 <_lispknownothing> (require 'slime) 21:42:36 <_lispknownothing> (slime-setup) 21:42:45 aiee 21:43:13 <_lispknownothing> then i do C-x slime when I start emacs 21:43:15 _lispknownothing: fortunately that wasn't too many lines, but next time paste at the URL that lisppaste just gave 21:43:22 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:43:27 I'm assuming you mean M-x slime there 21:43:31 <_lispknownothing> yeah 21:43:36 michaelw: re. your git pointers, in a team of 3, we normally pull in changes with --rebase, so as not to pollute history with ugly merge commits; leave these to merges from different branches. 21:43:55 michaelw: there are two aliases that I find very helpful; can send them to you if you want 21:44:00 _lispknownothing: it sounds like you've installed SBCL and SLIME from your distribution's packaging system (perhaps a Debian-derivative or Gentoo)? 21:44:01 pjb annotated #68773 with "with reduce" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68773#2 21:44:22 <_lispknownothing> yes, ubuntu 21:44:30 puchacz: it's rather trivial to transform any sequence walking into a reduce form... 21:45:07 _lispknownothing: well, unfortunately it's hard for me to tell what's going on because distributions add quite a lot of cruft to SLIME and SBCL which I can't reproduce 21:45:27 puchacz: Usually, the reverse is done, for performance reasons. GO is cheaper than FUNCALL, usually. 21:45:36 _lispknownothing: Try making a new buffer (C-x b blahbuffer) and enabling lisp-mode in that buffer (M-x lisp-mode) 21:45:42 and try it in that buffer 21:45:46 <_lispknownothing> ok, thanks 21:45:54 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:48 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:03 pjb: yeah, performance favours looping, but somehow I am finding higher order functions more aesthethically appealing :-) 21:47:17 madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.41] has joined #lisp 21:47:32 O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-58-224.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 21:47:35 syamajala_ [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:37 use tail recursion 21:47:42 <_lispknownothing> It still does the same thing 21:48:23 puchacz: and what's more, a sufficiently smart compiler could open code reduce calls into loops. 21:48:27 _lispknownothing: can you go to http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and paste your full .emacs there? 21:48:31 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:48:38 -!- syamajala_ is now known as syamajala 21:48:48 <_lispknownothing> all i have are the lines i put straight in 21:49:18 then your distribution's package for SLIME is broken 21:49:31 <_lispknownothing> should I try from source then? 21:50:12 <_lispknownothing> even the lines that are there I put in manually, as it said to do on an ubuntu forum 21:50:21 -!- Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:30 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:42 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:44 -!- ben_____ [n=benj@dsl254-082-025.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [] 21:54:35 billstclai [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:55:16 dkcl [n=dan@113.66.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:55:29 -!- dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:55:33 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:55:52 <_lispknownothing> why are they called "inferior-lisps"? 21:55:53 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 21:57:06 _lispknownothing: on the system where emacs was originally created, child processes were known as inferior processes (or something like that) 21:57:24 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:37 hysterical raisins 21:57:39 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:49 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 21:58:26 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 22:00:55 madnific` [n=user@83.101.2.41] has joined #lisp 22:01:37 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:03:57 emacs == brutal 22:04:39 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 22:10:34 *hefner* remembers that making pretty graphs is never instructive in proportion to the take it takes 22:11:30 oh, it can be, for non-easy-to-visualise things 22:11:47 allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:12:17 antifuchs: sure, please send. 22:14:12 michaelw: at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68776 22:16:52 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:06 oh, and reload for another nice one. 22:17:36 *michaelw* bookmarks 22:17:56 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 22:20:25 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 22:20:30 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:42 -!- moritz [n=moritz@U317b.u.pppool.de] has left #lisp 22:20:42 antifuchs: almost all of our merges are fast-forwards, because it's very clear cut who does what 22:21:29 *rvirding* good evening everyone 22:21:39 here too, except we make these changes in parallel, so once somebody has local changes and somebody else has pushed to the central repo, there's a merge commit in addition to the real changes 22:26:53 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:27:17 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:27:57 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 22:30:14 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:34:26 avida [n=amani@c-71-198-246-95.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:05 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 22:45:40 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:59 xbxbxb [n=xb@p54A9BDF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:27 ddsmith [n=ddsmith@12.6.239.179] has joined #lisp 22:51:27 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:55:08 kpreid: thanks for your answer, sorry for delay .) 22:57:22 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54A9F97F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:04 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 22:58:49 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:58:56 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-87-37.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:01:23 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:04:58 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 23:07:07 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 23:08:59 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:17:19 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 23:17:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:21:07 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:22:59 -!- futuresoon [n=Xeones@cpe-66-108-46-57.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:45 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:28:20 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:22 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 23:32:02 isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:34:33 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:40 schasi [n=schasi@p54A24F25.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:40 -!- madnific` [n=user@83.101.2.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:22 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:49:22 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:23 -!- Jarv2 is now known as JHVH