00:06:01 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:09 as i see, there is still a problem with emacs/slime/sbcl. i do not get a preview of all parameters for the function-call i am editing. what can cause this? 00:08:46 trebor_home: hmm, i use (slime-setup '(slime-autodoc ...)) 00:09:39 '(slime-autodoc ...? autodoc-mode t)? 00:10:18 what is ... in your answer? 00:10:26 other contribs 00:10:55 thanks, trying. 00:11:16 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:31 -!- spiderbyte is now known as away-mode 00:12:34 works. i think that was the las piece which was missing. 00:12:50 awesome, my micro-lisp is going in huge strides 00:13:58 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:14:30 I managed to build a lisp-within-c (no GC yet), where I can do car(cons(atom("A"), atom("B"))) 00:14:51 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:15:20 what's atom do? 00:16:25 create a symbol 00:17:03 that's kind of an odd name for a function that does that 00:17:38 uhm, yeah 00:18:10 (also, it should actually return an interned symbol and create and intern one if one doesn't exist) 00:19:16 my "lisp" is wrong insofar as eq(atom("A"), atom("A")) is false 00:19:22 xyblor [n=nik@206-248-179-139.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:02 what's a good library for lisp + mysql? 00:22:04 xyblor: clsql is the only one i know of 00:22:35 okay, I thought others might to that too 00:23:07 plutonas [n=plutonas@h-188-232.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 00:23:37 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 00:24:42 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 00:25:49 has anyone used opengl through lisp? 00:26:04 I feel like that could lead to some very interesting/trippy games 00:26:16 fisxoj: yes 00:26:32 fisxoj: perfectstorm is a lisp opengl "game" (it's really early in development) 00:26:50 is it on the interwebs? 00:27:11 I like the idea of programming games, and that could be part of what might make a lisp game fun 00:27:26 the ability to mutate behaviours of things 00:27:58 there is that robot tank thing in java, but its hell to code those stupid things 00:28:11 fisxoj: http://erleuchtet.org/2008/03/project-overview-perfectstorm.html 00:28:23 it looks pretty, at least that perfect storm 00:28:25 it turns out to be pretty good for webgames :) 00:28:41 Xach, is that your work? 00:28:42 then there's cl-sdl 00:28:59 which is pretty easy to use 00:29:49 fisxoj: no 00:30:12 fisxoj: i couldn't get it working myself, but i had a crappy 3d card 00:32:09 it's quite pretty-looking 00:32:29 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-68-238-164-124.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:30 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:40 jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:09 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:20 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:02 ths_ [n=ths@X5682.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:41:31 cgo [n=cgoellne@adsl-065-007-140-208.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:50 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:57 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has quit [] 00:45:05 -!- cgo [n=cgoellne@adsl-065-007-140-208.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 00:46:02 -!- away-mode is now known as spiderbyte 00:51:15 -!- hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:52:01 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 00:56:12 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:17 -!- ths [n=ths@X6aaa.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:58 -!- twxfn is now known as ushdf 00:57:14 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.87.203] has joined #lisp 00:57:32 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:59:20 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:01:11 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:01:15 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:54 TravisD [n=TravisD@ug02.cs.ualberta.ca] has joined #lisp 01:02:02 Is there a channel well suited to computational theory? 01:03:01 (questions about context free grammars, regular languages, etc) 01:03:13 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [No route to host] 01:03:54 *rme* barely escaped alive from that topic... 01:04:09 Hey guys, xmls works perfect, thanks for the recommendation! 01:05:19 rme, I'm comp. science major, but we never studied it, haha. I am trying to help my sister with some questions 01:05:42 -!- chitech [n=khuongdp@82.143.212.234] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:06:00 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 01:07:20 I once was visiting the professor of some computational theory class during his office hours to get help with a problem. I knew I was on the wrong side of the tracks when he asked "Do you like computers?" 01:08:06 hahaha 01:08:50 -!- ushdf is now known as twxfn 01:14:08 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [] 01:14:52 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@220.253-198-77.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:15:19 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:19:43 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:28 -!- eevar_ [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:23:26 awesome, I have interned symbols now 01:24:31 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 01:24:53 -!- TravisD [n=TravisD@ug02.cs.ualberta.ca] has left #lisp 01:27:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:27:40 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:28:33 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:28:35 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:40 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:32:14 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:05 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:36:13 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:36:46 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:01 rudi [n=rudi@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/rudi] has joined #lisp 01:41:48 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 01:42:15 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-1e6a808a915f4994] has joined #lisp 01:44:28 Are there any tutorials/introductions to parenscript with huncnentoot? 01:46:51 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-87-37.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:34 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:48:15 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:39 written ages ago and I haven't done anything since then, but: http://constantly.at/blog/2007/12/12/parenscript-vs-scriptaculous/ 01:53:44 rudi: thanks, the parenscript docs use aserve for their examples. I just need something to get me started using hunchentoot/parenscript. 01:55:38 -!- milos_ [n=milos@92.36.158.202] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:28 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:45 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-35-86.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:01:47 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1EA2F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["quit"] 02:08:18 EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has joined #lisp 02:08:51 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:10:33 -!- antgreen [n=green@localhost.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 02:11:10 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:10 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has quit [] 02:12:35 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:13:55 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has left #lisp 02:14:48 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:38 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:19:18 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:20:17 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:56 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:24 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:22:09 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:33 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:39 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has joined #lisp 02:32:29 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 02:34:05 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:34:28 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-7.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:34:40 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:36:11 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:40:06 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:40:50 Serva [n=Serva@dilip.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 02:41:15 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:41:57 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:44:31 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has quit [] 02:49:01 -!- bohanlon` [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:52:12 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:52:42 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:56:16 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-214-23-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:57:14 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-214-23-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:35 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 02:58:01 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:59:33 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:26 mogunus pasted "zuh?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68668 03:01:31 Hi. Trying to play with hunchentoot, and I get that. 03:01:50 When I try to load :hunchentoot-test 03:01:54 good morning 03:02:05 H4ns1: May I ask you a question regarding the non-blocking IO/function thing you told me before? I thought I can do the similar thing with threads and continuations. Is that correct? 03:02:12 I installed it with clbuild, and I know that cffi is installed 03:02:33 mogunus: try loading it individually? 03:03:20 'mornig beach. or 'night 03:03:30 woah, cffi is broken/absent or something. weird... all that's in my cffi directory is the _darcs thing. 03:03:58 heh <_< 03:06:29 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:41 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:08:31 sykopomp: btw, I'm going to try out parenscript. 03:09:13 mogunus: good plan. 03:09:40 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:42 -!- grnman [n=grnman@c-76-110-165-179.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:31 which is actually why I'm messing around with hunchentoot. figure I'll go through a couple tutorials or some such with just hunchentoot, and then introduce parenscript 03:13:53 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-68-238-164-124.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:14:30 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-5b203cc08afe780d] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:15:37 mogunus: have you looked at the parenscript tutorial? It's pretty nice. 03:15:56 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:16:15 sykopomp: yeah, I want to become familiar with hunchentoot first though 03:21:07 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:21:25 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:21:41 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:22:07 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 03:23:05 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A134C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:23:19 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:23:23 xMilesTegx [n=Spune@c-69-137-224-211.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:29 evening 03:33:57 hello slyrus 03:35:02 impulse32_ [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:06 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:05 -!- xbxbxb [n=xb@p54ABD706.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:30 -!- Spune [n=Spune@c-69-137-224-211.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:38:00 xbxbxb [n=xb@p54ABD846.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:35 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:43:28 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:43:54 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:44:05 yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:46:27 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:48:30 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:20 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:49:46 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 03:50:18 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-35-86.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 03:54:09 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 04:01:27 ddsmith [n=ddsmith@12.6.239.179] has joined #lisp 04:02:39 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:42 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:05:45 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 04:13:27 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [] 04:13:59 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:04 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:24 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:22:27 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 04:23:48 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:25:04 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:48 TravisD [n=TravisD@ug02.cs.ualberta.ca] has joined #lisp 04:28:03 Is this an appropriate channel for talking about Regular Languages? 04:28:12 (also, Context Free Grammars?) 04:30:49 TravisD: you could ask specific questions about some problem you might have implementing them in lisp, I imagine. 04:31:18 Ah, unfortunately is has very little to do with implementation :( haha. I'm just not sure where a question like that would be appropriate. Theres no 'computationaltheory' channel lol 04:35:27 #math, maybe. 04:35:40 TravisD: since it's quiet here anyway, what do you need to know? 04:37:51 I need to know how to make a Context Free Grammar for the Regular Expressions generated by the alphabet {a, b, c, U, *, 0- (empty set), (, ) } where the brackets are parenthesized properly, and I'm a little bit lost 04:38:10 I thought I was having git problems. turns out kreuter just forgot to commit version.lisp-expr 04:39:14 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46EEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:41 TravisD: the simplest way to go about that is to show that every production in your grammar preserves proper bracketing. 04:39:47 TravisD: That's a pretty simple langauge. What seems to be the problem? 04:41:48 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:42:30 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:52 -!- AWizzArd [n=ath@83-247-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:42:52 TravisD: You probably need one production for a nonempty sequence of simple expressions, something like seq -> exp | seq exp. 04:43:21 I think I might know how to get it, thanks so much. If you're up for it I'll probably have some more questions later :) 04:43:54 TravisD: for the exp you probably need something like exp -> a | b | c | you | exp* | (seq) 04:44:20 oops, my abbrev kicked in and expanded "U". 04:45:18 What is the exp there? I think I am having trouble incorporating * and U into the rules 04:45:27 "you" is U? 04:45:44 that's what I said. My abbrev kicked in. Sorry! 04:45:57 Its no problem at all! 04:46:21 -!- yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:46:23 TravisD: as you see exp has a rule that says exp*, but that might not be entirely right. 04:46:57 TravisD: and I don't know what U is supposed to do, so I assumed it was another terminal like a, b, and c. 04:47:42 TravisD: But I think you get the point. That should give you something to work with. 04:48:54 I think that makes sense. I think I can at least get something down 04:50:52 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:51:11 isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:53:39 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:53:59 As a totally unrelated discussion, does anyone know of a project which intelligently creates Haiku poems? 04:54:40 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-108.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:55:29 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E457B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:55:42 TravisD, I know of the Haiku OS project? 04:56:13 Does that generate poems? lol 04:56:28 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:56:34 Nah. 04:56:42 MHOOO [n=nah@0-021.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 04:58:14 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:01:19 I... I think I did it 05:01:43 Haven't tested it yet, but I implemented (roots of) Lisp in C 05:03:31 (need to make it parse input; now you need to do, say, car(quote(cons(symbol("this"), cons(symbol("that"), symbol("nil"))))), right now...) 05:04:52 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 05:05:04 okay, nuff brain burnage for tonight 05:05:53 TravisD, yay. 05:06:14 I think that might have been directed at Tordek ? 05:06:45 beach, do you think the pumping lemma would serve to show by contradiction that the L is not Regular, or would using closure properties of regular languages be a better approach 05:06:46 Yeah. 05:08:58 my intuition is that pumping should be able to throw off parenthetical balance for some w in L, but I am having trouble coming up with one 05:11:05 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [No route to host] 05:13:44 HelloMeow [n=Mohamdu@unaffiliated/hellomeow] has joined #lisp 05:16:35 TravisD: It's often easiest if you repeat the same character for all of the pumping length. 05:17:36 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 05:24:38 pkhuong: I'm still seeing build failures based on seemingly trivial details in customize-target-features.lisp. perhaps I'm going to have to dig in to the gc code to try to figure out where things are going awry. 05:28:14 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:13 anyways, I'm off. Thanks so much for the help 05:30:15 -!- TravisD [n=TravisD@ug02.cs.ualberta.ca] has quit [] 05:33:31 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:34:22 pkhuong: my favorite latest change is that in customize-target-features.lisp, changing the name of the variable from features to list causes the build to break. either that or I am completely insane. 05:34:25 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 05:34:52 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:34:58 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@6-028.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 05:36:29 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 05:36:56 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:41:50 slyrus: on two different boxes? 05:42:26 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:42 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 05:44:44 no, same box. 05:45:35 slyrus: *cough* bad ram *cough* (: 05:45:42 heh. 05:46:04 that doesn't explain why roughly the same symptoms happen on two boxes 05:46:13 or the repeatability of the symptoms 05:46:55 perhaps this is some sort of lingering stack alignment or other byte alignment problem with lutexes that is triggered by seemingly trivial changes 05:47:30 I've seen repeatable problems, but two boxes makes that much less plausible. 05:48:37 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:51:28 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:09 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.170.20] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:53:02 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@0-021.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:56:25 slyrus: I had bad ram yesterday! 05:56:28 [1]Maghnus [n=Maghnus@68-190-147-184.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:56:48 lovely. but I don't think that's what's going on here. 05:57:50 s_p [n=s_p___@eduroam.lu.lv] has joined #lisp 06:02:39 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:02:49 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:06:54 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:09:34 benny [n=benny@i577A1093.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:12:53 -!- Maghnus [n=Maghnus@68-190-147-184.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:16:13 eevar_ [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:16:18 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:39 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-108.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:04 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:00 and changing the name of the variable from list to lisa seems to fix the problem. either that or I'm just getting really lucky over and over. 06:29:11 -!- creddy 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[n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:03:50 <_deepfire> djb recommends against buying hardware without ecc'd memory, and I'm beginning to wonder why this advice isn't more widespread 07:03:53 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:04:06 -!- hugo__ [n=hugo@89-180-123-117.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:04:32 hugo__ [n=hugo@89-180-253-141.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 07:05:33 _deepfire: consider the chance of a software issue causing a hardware reset vs a memory issue causing problems (for consumer systems) 07:05:42 s/hardware reset/problems/ 07:07:18 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:22 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-48-185.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:07:29 pjb [n=pjb@81-66-48-185.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:08:46 _deepfire: if you're serious about worrying about hardware-caused sources of downtime or error, you can go a lot deeper than ECC. 07:09:55 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.134.238] has joined #lisp 07:10:26 does ECC add mechanisms of reporting failures? 07:10:30 also, given the reality of security patching, I generally have to reboot all my OS's before ECC memory would be really "worth it". 07:11:16 <_deepfire> Adamant, memory errors might cause silent data corruption, which is worser than downtime 07:11:36 _deepfire: most people can live with silent data corruption 07:11:54 it's more likely happening on your HD already anyway 07:13:10 or you can go with SSD's and be a guinea pig for whatever empirical findings we end up getting on their reliability and lifetime 07:13:24 <_deepfire> well, given the reality of cunsumer storage, raid is a necessity these days 07:13:38 _deepfire: lol. nobody has raid. 07:13:39 <_deepfire> er, consumer 07:13:44 <_deepfire> I do. 07:13:48 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 07:13:51 try doing RAID on a laptop for starters. 07:14:04 guess what most people have now. 07:14:11 yes, there are 2 drive systems 07:14:17 So do I have RAID, and for a long time too. 07:14:18 but they are very very rare 07:14:54 Well laptops are backuped even more often ;-) 07:15:08 pjb: true, but it's not a real substitute for RAID 07:15:45 I do backup of course, and I'd do RAID.. if I have two laptop bays. 07:16:16 but I'm also on #lisp so the population here is decidedly not representative of the average user. 07:16:45 Yep, here we're just a bunch of crazy people linking nail clips. 07:16:52 s/linking/liking/ 07:17:35 more like we're a bunch of CS geeks using a semi-obscure language that serves as a sort of shibboleth. 07:20:21 also, I'm not a data reliability geek, but I'm pretty sure there are errors that can get around RAID 1 and already cause serious problems in RAID 5 and 6, simply due to the fact we are storing huge amounts of data in increasingly smaller spaces. 07:23:07 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #lisp 07:25:17 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 07:27:45 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483CC1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:58 -!- eevar_ [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:40:39 hjpark [n=user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 07:41:20 Adamant: CS geeks? i'm a pragmatic application developer! :) 07:41:48 drewc: PragProg types = CS geeks in denial 07:41:57 geek though .. and well .. ok you have point 07:42:29 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.134.238] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:43:57 -!- twxfn [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 07:44:26 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-93-154.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:47:58 db48x [n=db48x@cl-12.dal-01.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:29 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:52:36 freelab [n=freelab@58.63.87.203] has joined #lisp 07:54:36 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:55:33 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-108.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:55:37 -!- freelab [n=freelab@58.63.87.203] has quit [Client Quit] 07:57:43 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:58:53 -!- jtoy is now known as sudoer 07:58:56 freelab [n=freelab@58.63.87.203] has joined #lisp 07:59:56 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:00:00 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:17 what's the easiest way to convert a string (a vector of characters) to a vector of bytes in a known encoding? 08:00:40 char-code perhaps? 08:00:48 (or is it code-char?) 08:01:50 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-36-127.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02:00 -!- freelab [n=freelab@58.63.87.203] has quit [Client Quit] 08:02:08 minion: babel 08:02:10 babel: Babel is a charset encoding/decoding library, not unlike GNU libiconv, but completely written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/babel 08:05:23 lichtblau: ah, that might be easier to work with 08:05:42 alper [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has joined #lisp 08:05:54 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@6-028.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:06:23 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:28 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 08:08:34 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-162-204.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:09:18 davo [n=davo@ip68-6-224-17.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:30 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 08:09:51 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit [Client Quit] 08:09:58 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 08:12:52 -!- alper [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:15:43 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-87-37.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 08:15:56 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-90-250.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 08:19:37 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 08:19:44 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 08:21:23 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit [Client Quit] 08:21:36 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 08:23:32 -!- Drakej [n=Gloria@216-67-85-98-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has left #lisp 08:29:52 <_deepfire> are we going to get CPUs to support utf16/32/8 conversion at instruction level? 08:30:29 _deepfire: why would you want that? 08:30:30 don't we already have that? 08:31:41 <_deepfire> I wonder how much time sbcl spends doing that internally 08:31:58 internally? none at all 08:32:16 <_deepfire> sbcl stores unicode as utf32, iirc 08:32:26 when reading/writing? much less than waiting for the disk/network, I guess (but don't trust guesses; profile it) 08:33:21 -!- borism [n=boris@allikas.gospa.ee] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 08:33:54 <_deepfire> well, maybe I'm overestimating it 08:34:16 what sort of slowdown are you seeing? 08:34:40 <_deepfire> I'm waxing about, sorry 08:34:45 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:34:57 _deepfire: There was lately a submission on reddit that showed that there's some instruction for utf8 conversion for some cpu. 08:37:22 -!- jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:39:37 <_deepfire> tcr, yes, interesting, http://bblank.thinkmo.de/blog/archive/2008/09/13/smallest-utf32-to-utf8-converter says s390 has that 08:45:39 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 08:46:32 Does anyone know if there going to be video from Lisp50? 08:51:32 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-087-090.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:16 db48x: char-code/code-char don't give a "known encoding". They just give what the implementation wants. 08:57:39 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:59:52 -!- spiderbyte is now known as mimies 09:02:18 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 09:02:50 nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:02:51 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@58.63.87.203] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:03:25 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.87.203] has joined #lisp 09:04:00 alper [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has joined #lisp 09:06:42 -!- hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:06:57 -!- rudi [n=rudi@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/rudi] has quit ["Client exciting"] 09:10:14 -!- [eDu] [n=edu@229.Red-79-144-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 09:15:06 Does solving the upward funarg problem (closures with infinite extent) intrinsically entail some support of automatic memory management (gc), or is there some clever alternative? 09:18:23 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-161-191.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 09:18:23 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:23:26 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-031-070.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:48 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 09:28:04 -!- alper [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:34:51 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-042-022.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:35:43 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:36:33 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:37:13 borism [n=boris@m90-137-132-46.cust.tele2.ee] has joined #lisp 09:37:50 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 09:39:05 SimonAdameit [n=simon@rlh.mediascape.de] has joined #lisp 09:41:31 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 09:43:48 How is a closure's environment usually implemented? A list of vectors of tagged pointers? 09:44:45 almost certainly not 09:45:08 that's much much too reified 09:45:23 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:46:17 I'm sorry I couldn't grok that on the language level; could you rephrase, please? 09:47:15 (What's reify here?) 09:47:18 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:48 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:51:15 -!- jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:51:28 jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:48 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:52:28 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.4] has joined #lisp 10:01:37 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:01 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:03:36 The percentage mark in the beginning of a function name means the function is only used inside of the package, is that correct?? 10:04:18 no 10:04:30 stassats`: oh really? what does it mean then? 10:05:15 tomoyuki28jp: it means you should not think about calling that function in your code. 10:05:39 tomoyuki28jp: there is a convention that functions with % are auxiliary functions 10:07:07 jdz: stassats`: So the function is made to be called internally and not expected to be called by a user, correct? 10:08:14 that convention is not as wide as ** around special variables, so it depends on the preferences of the author 10:08:28 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-90-250.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:08:34 but usually, yes 10:08:41 stassats`: jdz: I see. Thanks! 10:08:49 *_3b* would say 'intended for users to call' is expressed by exports, not % 10:09:45 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.87.203] has quit [] 10:10:10 stassats`: So the convention is lispers tend to put % in the beginning of un-exported function? 10:10:18 tomoyuki28jp: no 10:10:27 <_3b> http://www.cliki.net/Naming%20conventions 10:11:06 _3b: Oh, it helps me a lot. Thank you very much! 10:12:29 <_3b> i'd interpret functions with % as being somehow 'lower level' than normal, possibly requiring more work to call than usual, for example checking types or argument validity by hand first 10:12:32 tomoyuki28jp: and not necessarily "low-level, fast, dangerous", it may be just a helper function 10:12:45 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 10:13:03 stassats`: helper functions usually have implicit assuptions about arguments 10:14:04 _3b: stassats`: I think now I got the idea. thanks! 10:14:35 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 10:16:16 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2BBC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:08 Using % for helper functions seems like a misuse in my eyes. 10:17:29 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-131-66.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:17:36 huh, depends on what you call 'helper' function 10:17:42 maybe i misused word 'helper' 10:19:06 why (parse-integer "2.") signals, but reader reads "2." as fixnum without a problem? 10:19:41 der-robert [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 10:19:42 oudeis: READ and PARSE-INTEGER are different functions with different rules. 10:20:00 "parse-integer does not recognize the syntactic radix-specifier prefixes #O, #B, #X, and #nR, nor does it recognize a trailing decimal 10:20:00 point." 10:20:04 from clhs 10:20:22 thanks 10:20:57 mulligan [n=user@75-31.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 10:21:26 my question then will be, more precisely, why do they have different rules? 10:22:17 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:13 because READ is about reading arbitrary lisp objects, and PARSE-INTEGER is about parsing integers (and nothing else) 10:24:31 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:24:33 they do different things 10:24:58 at no point does READ call PARSE-INTEGER, and at no point does PARSE-INTEGER call READ 10:25:59 mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-088-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:08 -!- der-robert [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 10:36:51 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:38:13 -!- ths [n=ths@X5682.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:39:40 sorry got disconnected (and ircbrowse.com doesn't work...) 10:39:42 sorry got disconnected (and ircbrowse.com doesn't work...) 10:39:45 Xof: why is it useful for read to not bark at "2."? if it is a kind of usability feature to make lazy programmer's life easier, i'd expect it to read it as float (it will actually be useful for quick calculator-style divisions in repl without getting back unwanted in this case rationals) 10:41:21 (parse-integer "2." :junk-allowed t) 10:41:53 stassats`: i know about junk-allowed, thanks 10:42:01 oudeis_: btw, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ works 10:42:09 oh thanks 10:42:31 malune [n=malune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:42:39 morning 10:42:54 mulligan` [n=user@75-26.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 10:43:38 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-087-090.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:44:09 (parse-integer (string-right-trim "." "2.")) 10:44:47 oudeis_: it is useful because there are programs written that use that syntax 10:45:00 it is useful because it is a way of specifying base-10 numbers independent of *read-base* 10:45:11 but mostly the first reason 10:46:19 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-131-66.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:46:42 Xof: so this is historical, all right. thanks 10:50:19 strange clojure uses the same ~ for comma expansion as DotLisp.. is that historically based? 10:50:27 G'day everyone! 10:50:32 hi spiaggia 10:50:57 dmiles: #clojure is ---> that way 10:50:59 i typed historical before oudeis_, strange 10:51:21 ths [n=ths@p549AD777.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:22 oops or maybe i didn't type it first.. 4 minutes differnce 10:52:21 jdz, thanks 10:52:58 4 minutes, it's 75 million km for the light 10:53:40 -!- borism [n=boris@m90-137-132-46.cust.tele2.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:43 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:58:07 -!- mulligan [n=user@75-31.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:06:42 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:08:20 -!- mulligan` [n=user@75-26.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:12:58 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:14:34 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:15:02 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-162-204.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:18:29 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-162-204.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:18:49 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:19:17 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:25:02 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:54 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:27:20 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB996C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:32:17 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9A31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:32:18 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 11:32:32 MHOOO [n=nah@3-029.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:34:59 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 11:39:39 matimago: indeed 11:50:28 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:52:24 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:52:44 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-162-204.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:53:04 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 11:53:08 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 11:53:42 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:54:08 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 11:54:34 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:55:39 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-105-3-106.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:57:54 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-1e6a808a915f4994] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:58:54 etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:24 db48x: so you can use implementation specific conversion functions such as #+clisp ext:convert-string-to-bytes or #+sbcl sb-ext:string-to-octets, or you can implement the codec yourself (easy for ASCII, harder for unicode), or perhaps use a library. Perhaps cl-unicode can do it? 11:59:43 -!- etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 12:00:05 cl-unicode can't do it 12:00:18 lictblau suggested babel, which is what I'm looking at 12:01:51 db48x: you might also want to look at flexi-streams 12:02:48 I'll put that in my notes, but I don't need a whole stream for this 12:03:00 I think I'm going to end up with a combination of babel and iconv 12:03:16 iconv has a nifty filter for transliterating utf8 to ascii 12:03:37 what does it do with the non-ascii characters? 12:03:39 but it wants its input to be a byte vector 12:04:04 ("Arbėreshė Albanian" becomes "Arbereshe Albanian", for example) 12:04:21 that doesn't seem desirable 12:04:30 well, it isn't in general 12:05:07 in this case I'm limited to using a-z0-9- anyway 12:05:33 you can imagine what's going to happen to "Kxauein" :) 12:06:52 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB98E2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:08:32 haiwei [n=haiwei@221.219.123.44] has joined #lisp 12:08:41 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@3-051.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:10:30 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:11:26 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:11:31 -!- malune [n=malune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:12:41 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:59 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:16:20 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:17:30 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:18:16 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:18:22 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:19:44 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB996C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:19:47 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 12:20:58 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 12:21:42 Serva [n=Serva@dilip.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 12:25:20 AWizzArd [n=wizzy@148-208-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:06 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@3-051.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:26:37 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@3-029.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:32:44 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 12:34:06 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:38:42 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:40:19 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:40:20 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:42:46 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:45:55 cmsimon [n=cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 12:50:41 ok! 12:50:55 now that we have both --script and saving runtime options, i am going to whip up a "lisp compiler" for sbcl. 12:51:51 sbcl-compile hello-world.lisp => 20M executable? 12:52:06 exactly. 12:52:28 cool. i think i'd use that. 12:52:36 it will also compile sbcl --script scripts 12:52:50 H4ns: i'll probably get the semantics all wrong at first :) 12:53:17 Xach: what is a --script script? 12:53:42 H4ns: #!/usr/bin/sbcl --script 12:54:16 Xach: hm. i'd expect that to work like LOAD? 12:55:44 sbclc -c hello-world.lisp -o hello-world 12:56:28 no more questions "how to compile a lisp program"? 12:57:01 H4ns: hopefully some stuff could be done at compile time and avoided at load time 13:00:02 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:01:15 except probably bigger than 20MB 13:01:27 probably. 13:01:43 it's 41 here with not much loaded 13:01:54 big scary website project thing currently produces 75MB core files 13:02:09 compresses to a svelte 9! 13:02:28 oh, and 64bit is bigger, of course 13:02:38 as is Intel mac, for some reason 13:03:39 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:05:03 *Xach* has some portion of his tongue in cheek on this one 13:06:19 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:06:30 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 13:07:59 -!- seelenquell_ is now known as seelenquell 13:09:18 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:37 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc60.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:15:18 whoa ... very cool option ... (--script) 13:15:28 yes 13:15:41 *Xach* hopes someone else blogs about it :) 13:15:53 kpreid perhaps, 13:16:11 about? 13:16:27 yvdriess: --script option ... 13:16:39 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 13:18:35 *Xach* will be the blogger of last resort 13:20:15 *db48x* chuckles 13:21:29 I've often thought that if I come in to a large sum of money I'd quit my job and hack shared library support into sbcl. 13:21:52 jfm3: what does that mean? 13:22:09 support for linking to sbcl as a shared library? 13:22:27 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:23:10 that's not hard. restore purify(), and put read-only and shared space into the shared library 13:23:18 I'm not entirely sure how it would go, but right now the presumptive result of 'sbcl -c' would be an executeable that didn't share data at all with any other process so compiled. 13:23:19 er, static space 13:23:43 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-200.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:24:25 jfm3: if you had large sums of money, you could buy another 16 gigabytes and not care! you could do that with small sums too! 13:24:44 gko [n=gko@61-224-68-57.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:23 ah, but buy 16GB for all your customers might be a bit harder (: 13:25:25 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has joined #lisp 13:25:26 Xach: that's just a matter of scale. It would be useful to have some kind of sharing associated with compilation. 13:25:48 antifuchs: that's where having large sums would help...you could stop caring about customers, and stick to writing essays 13:25:56 ooh 13:26:17 but must it be essays? I'd much rater just post funny images 13:26:32 sorry. essays only. 13:26:43 hm. "rather" - my #\h key seems to be slightly broken 13:26:50 jfm3: i guess i agree, but i haven't run into any problems associated with no sharing yet. 13:27:49 SBCL for Win32 is not current, is it? Website says the port is _in progress_ for an earlier version. Does anybody here use SBCL on Win32? 13:28:23 LeCamarade: it works for many things, but as far as i know nobody is doing current development on it. people still report when other development breaks it, so there are some users. 13:28:38 Do I have to c 13:28:41 anyone going to the oopsla 50 years lisp workshop? :) 13:28:48 I remember the bad old days when UNIX workstations didn't have shared libraries, and it made a lot of desireable things prohibitively expensive. Copies of libc everywhere. Stinky. 13:28:48 ... ompile the current meself? 13:28:52 yvdriess: lukego is 13:28:58 LeCamarade: i think so. 13:29:05 cool 13:29:08 Merde. 13:29:20 See, I can't compile on this here machine. :o( 13:29:27 Anyway ... Another problem. 13:29:46 SBCL doesn't play too nice with mutually-recursive definitions. 13:29:47 LeCamarade: i could be wrong. i'm not all that familiar with sbcl and windows 13:29:56 LeCamarade: how so? 13:30:00 Me neither. Not familiar. :o) 13:30:26 Well, if I define function f1 which calls f2, which calls f1, SBCL will make lots and lots of noise. 13:30:38 About calling inexistent funcs and so on. 13:30:47 One solution is not to worry about it. 13:30:49 A whole lot of noise, I had to plug me ears. 13:31:04 that's the solution i use 13:31:08 Well, I'd not worry, but it said "Deleting unreachable code ..." 13:31:19 LeCamarade: well, that's not related to mutually recursive functions. 13:31:21 That's dangerous. I knew all my code was reachable! 13:31:35 -!- beach` is now known as beach 13:31:40 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:31:44 LeCamarade: paste the code & the warning, maybe there's something else happening. 13:31:50 good afternoon 13:31:53 http://paste.lisp.org/ is a good place to paste 13:32:03 -!- AWizzArd [n=wizzy@148-208-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 13:32:03 Oh. I though it was. But digging through the pamphlet of error messages was why I didn't bother going on. 13:32:04 lisppaste: url? 13:32:04 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 13:32:15 Ah, I'll come back with the code. Left it home. 13:32:25 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 13:32:25 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:32:28 It was a trie data structure. 13:32:37 Also, another question now. 13:32:52 LeCamarade: if you use slime, it will highlight the points of warning inline and you can flip through them with M-n and M-p. 13:32:58 I hate destructive updates, being a Haskell-head. 13:33:23 Is there a Lisp thingy that does what setf would do on structures, without making me create it anew? 13:33:36 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:37 See, structures are a bit hard to destructure in Lisp. 13:33:49 with-slots? 13:33:59 I don't know what you mean about setf, sorry. 13:34:33 Something like (setf (aref :spot str)) ... 13:34:44 If I had that many problems with Lisp not being like Haskell, I would probably use Haskell instead. 13:34:47 Anyway, I'll be back with code, so I can get help the right way. 13:34:58 I think that works. 13:35:14 I use Haskell, but I want to learn much from Lisp, as it were. MOP and friends ... 13:35:17 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:35:44 Okay, someone recommend me a Win32 Lisp. I see Clisp comes with MI 13:35:49 Mingw. Bad ... 13:35:50 LeCamarade: The first thing you should learn, then, is not to use the paradigms of Lisp and not of Haskell. 13:36:45 beach: I tried. But I find destructive updates intimidating, and therefore the Lisp way intimidating. I don't know if it is something I should live with. 13:37:03 If there is no Lispy alternative. 13:37:20 LeCamarade: If you want to learn Lisp, like you said, I suggest you live with it, or use something other than structures. 13:37:39 Okay. :o) 13:39:03 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 13:39:03 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-66.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:40:32 LeCamarade: Field updates in Haskell create a new structure, too, don't they? 13:40:52 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:45 tcr: Yes, but it is very syntactic affair. I tend to find only setf and aref useable in Lisp, and they do destructive update (even on a CAR!) so I quake in me boots. 13:43:06 Don't be afraid, and don't hate. Just learn how and where to use things. 13:44:59 Xach: Yeah, I guess it's the better way. 13:45:26 LeCamarade: (defstruct (foo (:constructor %make-foo)) slot-a slot-b ...) (defun make-foo (&key slot-a slot-b default) ...fill slots with slots from DEFAULT if appropriate...); you can now use (make-foo :slot-a 42 :default *some-foo*) 13:46:13 Ah. Using a default. Hmm. Okay ... 13:46:17 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:54 yvdriess: sellout too 13:47:24 what now? 13:48:12 lisp50 13:48:41 Ah, yeah :) 13:49:34 :D 13:50:05 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 13:50:38 sovert [n=user@75.145.221.229] has joined #lisp 13:55:02 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:58:34 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.176.127] has joined #lisp 13:59:17 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:48 tcr: you can do all that with just one BOA-constructor. 14:00:10 -!- LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 14:00:17 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has joined #lisp 14:00:33 *kreuter* hearts BOA-constructors. 14:02:06 -!- jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:02:39 -!- LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has quit [Client Quit] 14:03:19 -!- impulse32_ [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 14:03:48 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-1cc55c1786e81d3f] has joined #lisp 14:05:29 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1093.versanet.de] has left #lisp 14:07:42 smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:12 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-35-86.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 14:11:13 i'm confused. what type spec would specify that something is either nil or a string? 14:11:30 (or null string) 14:11:40 ah! thank you! 14:12:03 null is a singleton class with `nil' as member; nil is the empty class. 14:12:23 adeht: thanks. i need to learn more about types. 14:13:02 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:43 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:14:48 -!- xyblor [n=nik@206-248-179-139.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 14:15:20 benny [n=benny@i577A0A3C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:15 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:40 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:18:50 -!- cmsimon [n=cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has left #lisp 14:19:25 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-35-86.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 14:20:15 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-200.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 14:20:23 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279776314.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:52 trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 14:28:03 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:28:05 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:42 hello. 14:28:50 hello trebor_win 14:29:23 hello beach. 14:29:29 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:31:21 What splendid autumn weather: sunny and 19°C. 14:31:44 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:48 hi nikodemus, thanks for that commit 14:31:49 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:32:23 hi -- thanks for the patch! 14:32:26 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 14:33:51 now fare can update cl-launch :) 14:34:59 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:39:30 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@166.pool85-54-98.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:25 -!- nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:40:25 H4ns: fwiw, it's not strictly correct to equate types and classes in Common Lisp. 14:40:35 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E462FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:54 kreuter: yes, i do know that. i've mostly ignored the type system until now, but i think that i need to change that a little. 14:41:03 good luck! 14:41:09 kreuter: uh :) 14:41:27 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46EEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:49:23 I don't know of a language where it is correct to equate classes 14:49:45 instanceof == bad smell 14:49:47 ;) 14:50:03 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:51:20 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:51:41 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:53:31 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 14:54:02 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 14:56:20 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:01:40 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:40 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:03:25 jeng [n=user@75.110.231.66] has joined #lisp 15:07:38 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:08:51 yo jeng! we were just talking about you and your diagrams. 15:10:05 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:13 jeng: do you have any example output lying around? 15:10:59 what sort of diagrams? 15:11:15 chord diagrams. he's the guy 15:11:34 ah! 15:11:42 Patzy_ [n=somethin@248.100.71-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:24 -!- Patzy_ [n=somethin@248.100.71-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:13:15 *Xach* prods the silent jeng 15:16:49 blAckEn3d [n=Alex@p54BA21E3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:17:01 hi 15:17:09 hello blAckEn3d 15:17:15 i have two (rather noobish) questions 15:17:17 first 15:17:41 aren't #'(lambda () 42) and (lambda () 42) equivalent since lambda is also a macro in cl? 15:18:01 blAckEn3d: they are 15:18:05 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc60.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 15:18:09 blAckEn3d: (lambda () 42) expands to #'(lambda ...) 15:18:27 blAckEn3d: in most cases, yes. the nitpicky exception, as i'm sure H4ns will love, is when (lambda () 42) appears in the car of a form to be evaluated. 15:18:43 heh 15:18:44 \o/ the gory details! 15:18:50 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:18:51 blAckEn3d: next question! 15:18:55 hum... what's the usual style for using lambdas then? I tend to prefer using #' regardless... 15:18:55 and the second 15:19:11 sykopomp: you are part of the minority then :) 15:19:22 sykopomp: i used to prefer always using #', and now i prefer never using it. i felt like #' emphasized that it's a function, somehow. but now i just think of lambda as a function directly. 15:19:30 is it bad style to use a macro just to read to avoid passing quoted lists.. just tro make the syntax nicer? 15:19:37 this one is kind of pointless 15:20:04 milanj [n=milan@79.101.170.20] has joined #lisp 15:20:05 blAckEn3d: macros are quite useful for making syntax nicer. there's a line to draw, though, where the niceness is worth it and where it's not. 15:20:17 blAckEn3d: That's fine, unless you sometimes need them evaluated of course. 15:20:30 thanks :) 15:20:38 anytime! 15:21:03 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 15:22:06 Xach: oh, you're so silent jeng.... 15:22:09 *salex* ducks 15:22:17 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:32 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279775570.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:22:48 *Xach* feels something fly over his head 15:23:18 ah well (riffing on an album title) 15:23:21 Xach: Sorry guys :) 15:23:23 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279775570.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:56 I just read back, Yeah I think I might have some 15:24:02 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279775570.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:24:38 someone knows who is maintainer of lispdoc.com ? 15:24:44 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@166.pool85-54-98.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 15:24:58 milanj: it says right at the bottom. bill moorier. 15:25:23 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:25:26 -!- trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:25:34 ahh 15:25:36 jeng: xach told me you had done something with chord diagrams after I hacked something up 15:25:43 thanks 15:26:09 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.176.127] has quit [] 15:26:10 jeng: fwiw, given a few spare cycles I may expand what I've got into something actually useful ... 15:26:55 http://www.jeremyenglish.org/pix/lydian-mode-C-6-E-A-D-Csharp-Dsharp-E.gif 15:27:09 Here is one of the lydian mode 15:28:29 salex: I wrote a program that knew about music theory and then bolted on a guitar interface. 15:28:34 jeng: ah, neat. Did you see the hack? http://skas-blog.blogspot.com/2008/10/half-assed-chord-diagrams-revisited.html 15:28:52 jeng: `by make something more useful' i meant to go the other way around 15:29:17 i.e., i hacked that together because I couldn't find something to output chord diagrams that didn't look like ass 15:29:39 but was thinking about expanding it into something that knows about music theory 15:29:39 salex: Is using boxes for the root common? I don't recall seeing that before (but I like it). 15:30:01 sellout: i do it all the time by hand, don't know if i made it up or picked it up ages ago 15:30:07 How about getting together and integrating chord diagrams with Gsharp? 15:30:14 -!- nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:14 -!- nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:21 i didnt see it anywhere 15:30:36 beach: i wondered about how much i could leverage gsharp 15:30:52 i presume it's easy to transpose, etc. in gsharp as it is 15:31:01 no, not particularly 15:31:15 ah? ok. 15:31:21 mind you, writing something that can transpose stuff is the matter of minutes. But there's nothing pre-existing 15:31:32 right, it'll be easy enough 15:31:59 salex: I don't think Gsharp will be useful to you, but one day, we could use chord charts in a new staff type. 15:31:59 in general, gsharp will not give you anything, other than a reasonable use of mcclim/ESA as an application 15:32:01 one issue with chord chart etc. for guitar is that, unlike piano, there isn't a really straighforward mapping from voicings to fingerings 15:32:39 Xof: ok, that's fine. as beach says, it might be nice to add anyway 15:33:11 bye 15:33:12 -!- blAckEn3d [n=Alex@p54BA21E3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["leaving"] 15:33:44 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:48 if i get around to expanding my stuff, i'd want to add a little display capability (barre symbols, fingert) but also let it transpose a chart (easy) name chords automagically (a bit less easy) and maybe find viable variant fingerings/voicings (not easy) 15:34:01 fingert s/b fingerings 15:34:17 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:34:32 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:34:53 salex: all Gsharp needs is two things: that you can tell it the horizontal dimensions of your thing so that it can get the spacing right, and that you know how to display it. 15:35:31 salex: then we can provide a particular command-table so that you can get all the commands you need for a staff of chords so that you can edit it whatever way you want. 15:36:52 beach:ok. typically you (or at least I) don't really want a whole chord diagram/fingering placed on a staff. I've seen these, but if it's in the same place at all I like them as a header 15:37:10 I have wondered about using gsharp in more fake-book style (dunno if you're familiar) 15:37:35 morning 15:37:40 and to that end, though an importer for chord-and-lyric type text files might be useful as a starting point 15:37:52 salex: I do want them on a "staff", but it will be a particular invisible staff dedicated to chord diagrams, just the way we have a "staff" for percussion and a "staff" for lyrics. 15:38:11 yes, i understood that, and it could be an option 15:38:17 salex: don't know fake-book. sorry! 15:38:48 beach: jazz terminology. typically, a proper staff with melodic line of the lyrics, and lyrics underneath 15:38:57 then above, you jus tput chord changes by name 15:39:31 salex: I have been using tuxguitar lately. It's written in java but it works well. 15:39:52 salex: yeah, well, I had to call that data structure *something* in Gsharp. 15:40:09 you might have diagrams for the chords above everything, and also perhaps an intro section just named by chords, no staff 15:40:41 salex: "staff" was just very appropriate. 15:40:52 beach: understood. I just mean that for me, typically I'd want names in that staff, not the diagrams themselves 15:41:00 but we could allow it to typset either 15:41:49 jeng: yeah, i wasn just looking for something to output a few chord diagrams, not a full systems 15:42:14 and everything I saw had ugly and/or limited output.... so i hacked the pdf/vecto thing togeher 15:42:16 salex: Right, I also imagine staff types for numbered chords they way they do it in harmony theory (at least here in France). 15:42:40 you mean by scale degree? (I vi etc.) ? 15:42:44 that woudl be also useful 15:42:54 -!- herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:21 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:43:21 salex: more complex than that, actually. 15:43:44 k. not sure if I've seen wha tyou' mean, but possibly 15:43:57 in any case, flexible woudl be good. 15:44:20 beach: so here is a related question 15:44:36 about my idea of an importer, because I have no idea how much work this is 15:45:05 there are a lot of charts out there in what I might call church-songbook style 15:45:46 which is lyrics, with superscripted chord names for the changes (to use jazz terminology) 15:46:01 so this is pretty useless unless you already know the tune 15:46:15 I see, yes. 15:46:17 if you're lucky, they might have rough bar markings, but maybe not. 15:46:34 (though, I can't say I know that notation) 15:46:42 Dodek [i=dodek@87-205-34-181.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 15:47:01 but these could still be a useful starting point for a chart, if you could have an importer that let you drag things around until you've got the bars right 15:47:27 wouldn't hurt if you could have it read chords and dump them on the staff too, but thats gravy 15:47:51 beach: it's a wierd notation, but common enough for `songbooks' 15:48:06 malune [n=malune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:48:18 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:48:22 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 15:48:31 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:38 anyway, it would save you typing out the lyrics etc, and on the slightly more complete ones, igve you a framework. 15:49:26 salex: Does your program have a catalog of fingerings that it picks from or does it make an educated guess at the fingerings. 15:49:42 jeng: it doesn't have anything yet, it's just layout 15:49:56 salex: I don't go to church, and certainly not in north America, so I might not know this style. 15:50:19 beach: it's not just church groups, but common there. you can get a ton of popular music in this sort of form 15:50:31 salex: and I am not sure whether such an "importer" should be a separate application of part of something like Gsharp. 15:50:52 beach: yeah, I'm not sure either. 15:51:47 another guitar-y sort of thing; if people were using it for guitar charts some would probably like a feature to create a tablature staff from a `real' staff, or vice versa. 15:51:54 -!- mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-088-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 15:51:57 i don't knwo that i'd care enough to write it :) 15:52:12 nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:52:27 salex: that sounds pretty complicated, but definitely useful. 15:52:36 salex: that is I believe on our group's radar 15:52:46 it's a mildly non-trivial problem 15:52:55 HMMs might be useful for it 15:53:08 jeng: i had a couple ideas for educated guessing, though. what I wrote so far was basically a 3 hour hack to layout some sheets rather thann hand-write them 15:53:14 salex: this is all on my mind because a week from now, I have a 1.5h presentation of Gsharp at the music conservatory of Angoulźme. 15:53:51 Xof: you mean the fingereings, or the tabs (now I remember your lute tabs!) 15:53:53 (hidden variable: hand position; observables: notes) 15:54:03 ah, hmm. must be fingerings 15:54:14 yes, exactly, i was thinking along those lines myself 15:54:20 don't tabs imply fingerings? They do in lute music 15:54:37 yeah, i didn't see the `mildly non-trival' when i asked 15:54:47 multitasking, sorry 15:54:56 Xof: not necessarily, but sometimes there is no real chose for physical reasons. 15:55:07 *choice 15:55:41 Xof: for fingerings, you also probably want to consider at least the previous and next chords and the time between them 15:55:48 but the first cut could ignore this 15:56:05 oh, sorry, yes, fretting vs fingering 15:56:31 excuse my ignorance, but I thought lutes had frets, no? 15:56:33 right.and course, it's somewhat musician dependent (set-able constraings?) 15:56:56 beach: you can fret the same voicing with different fingers sometimes 15:57:04 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-67-173-240-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:57:15 frets/no-frets doesn't matter there, actually 15:57:26 OK 15:57:28 I'm looking for an emacs tutorial that is lisp oriented. any pointers ? 15:57:36 but sometimes, you can't (physical constraints) 15:57:42 sorry, I mean that tabs imply which frets are stopped, not which fingers are used to stop them 15:57:48 right 15:57:50 kuwabara: there is a good Elisp manual. 15:57:50 and I had conflated the two in my tiny addled mind 15:58:02 and it's 1:1 modulo various conventions 15:58:05 so that part's fine 15:58:10 beach: not about emacs lisp; about programming in lisp, using emacs 15:58:18 kuwabara: the is a movie by marco baringer that is slime oriented 15:58:22 physically being able to play it, slightly different story 15:58:29 kuwabara: you want to look at SLIM then. 15:58:37 *SLIME 15:58:46 ok, thanks 15:58:49 (something wrong with my typing tonight) 15:59:10 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:59:39 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:29 -!- gko [n=gko@61-224-68-57.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:50 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:34 Xof: I'd be interested in anything your group does with that problem, btw. 16:02:32 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB98E2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:03:05 salex: Here is an example of my program trying to figure out voicings http://jeremyenglish.org/blog/?p=152 16:03:13 beach: as for the importer thingy, maybe a seperate interface that dumped something gsharp could read 16:03:24 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.4] has joined #lisp 16:04:16 pkhuong: coercing a successful build by changing the variable name from list to lisa allows me to build from the head which in turn rebuilds with the variable name changed back, so I'm going to ignore this, and pretend that there any problems dumping lutexes 16:04:17 jeng: interesting. is it doing this from a library or evaluting them? 16:04:28 evaluting 16:04:59 slyrus: wow. That's... Strange. We should make sure the last release isn't affected, I guess. 16:05:04 hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279634158.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:05:26 salex: that would be a possibility, yes. 16:06:02 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 16:06:08 jeng: how are you setting up the criterion? 16:06:17 based on the tuning of the guitar and what string you want the root note one. Every once in awhile it will come up with something that is impossible to play. 16:06:27 ah, ok 16:06:27 do any of you know a good introduction to SERIES? 16:06:49 my ideas are untried, but along the lines of xof's suggetion (hmm) or other stochastic methods 16:07:21 jeng: the nice thing about that is, i can see a path to looking for playable progressions, where it could suggest alternates aas well 16:07:31 hey #lisp, whats the "^" operator called in lisp / english - its the potens operator in danish - not that useful a searchword :/ 16:07:40 i always thought fingering were nice optimisation/satisfaction problems. 16:07:45 salex: maybe by sampling from the posterior, hmm? :-) 16:07:46 kij: expt 16:07:52 Xof: :) 16:07:53 clhs expt 16:07:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_exp_e.htm 16:08:03 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-23-130.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 16:08:17 pkhuong: yes, but it gets a little bit hairy if you want to approximate how people actually do this 16:08:29 salex: thanks! 16:08:38 you mean beach 16:09:15 yes, yes i do :) 16:09:26 salex: that would be really nice to have. So based on the chord to either side of the one you are playing it would determine the most convenient fingering? 16:09:28 salex: I guess there's a bit more freedom on the piano. 16:09:45 pkhuong: no, less. 16:09:46 jeng: based on the entire sequence! 16:09:51 nice 16:09:55 jeng: what xof said. 16:10:01 smithzv [n=smithzv@duan145-125-dhcp.colorado.edu] has joined #lisp 16:10:10 of course, all this depends on salex Actually Reading My Code 16:10:11 pkhuong: at least, less from the direction I'm thinking of it 16:10:18 or else we'll have to do it all in Matlab 16:10:23 ow 16:10:26 i deserved that 16:11:13 pkhuong: because a) unlike piano, you have alternate positions for the same voicing but b) more physical constraints on what is playable in practice 16:11:26 so maybe it's awash 16:11:57 salex: I didn't think of a). 16:11:57 kij: the way to figure things like that out, is to go to the "numbers" chapter, and then to the "numbers dictionary" in the Common Lisp HyperSpec, and see what looks plausible. 16:12:03 Xof: could also approach this from an energy function p.o.v. 16:12:10 pkhuong: yeah, it makes things weird 16:12:17 kij: where in Denmark do you live? 16:12:25 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279775570.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:00 jeng: I guess it woudl also be nice to have constraints like `try and stay off low E and A' (playing with a band) or `try to walk on low E and A' (playing solo fingerstyle). Or `try to voice lead' 16:14:12 now were veering into automgical composition though 16:14:36 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:14:46 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:06 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 16:16:08 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:16:28 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:53 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 16:18:06 gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:33 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:18:41 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:19:04 caxap [n=0@83.234.227.5] has joined #lisp 16:19:04 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:34 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 16:19:35 -!- caxap [n=0@83.234.227.5] has left #lisp 16:21:11 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:21:38 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 16:21:44 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 16:25:36 jeng: hey, where on the gulf coast are you? 16:26:19 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:21 *beach* hopes salex won't get the same answer he did when asking a kij a similar question. 16:26:31 ? 16:26:43 he = beach 16:26:59 ah. what was the answer? 16:27:06 ... which was that he quit. 16:27:18 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:27:42 salex: Right outside of houston 16:27:45 salex: do you want my latest hmm version? 16:27:54 jeng: we're neighbors (I'm in the loop) 16:28:10 Xof: yeah. i actually might have time to look at it this weekend 16:28:14 (sorry 'bout that) 16:28:23 Hopefully Ike didn't effect you to much 16:28:25 speaking of which, is everything back to normal around the gulf coast now? 16:28:27 jeng: ok, nearly neighbors 16:28:34 beach: no, not at all. 16:28:44 darn! 16:28:46 jeng: not too bad, 4 days without power and water 16:28:51 beach: not even slightly :/ 16:29:00 # might actually improve substantially in a couple of weeks, but probably not before 16:29:11 ... unless I start getting outside encouragement :) 16:29:25 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:29:40 dlowe: Sorry to hear that. You know the news; after a few days they move on to other stuff, and we are led to believe everything is OK. 16:29:41 Yikes... I have been thinking about moving. Two hurricanes in three years is to much for me. 16:29:55 beach: some bits of the actual coast are absolutely hammered 16:30:09 salex: like Galvestone? 16:30:22 "Galveston"? 16:30:35 coneection problems, brb 16:30:42 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:31:08 beach: There are forests with dead trees covered in bedsheets next to entire neighborhoods of house husks. It's ghostly 16:31:24 dlowe: wow! 16:31:28 salex [n=user@ardbeg.math.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:31:32 that should be better 16:31:45 My wife is in the Houston area at the moment, but I haven't heard from her since she went there. 16:31:52 beach: galveston the town is sort of ok, galveston the island not so much 16:32:02 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 16:32:05 there are a couple of small communities there taht are literaly gone 16:32:13 (i.e., most houses down to foundation) 16:32:19 all kinds of infrastructure problems 16:32:33 ths__ [n=ths@p549AFB44.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:35 houston itself is mostly back on it's feet. a few spots with power troubles still 16:32:43 beach: I'm talking about the Katrina damage on the MS Gulf Coast. 16:32:45 lots of trees and fences still down, etc. 16:33:00 dlowe: ah, OK. 16:33:22 beach: it's still like that. 16:33:28 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Gone"] 16:33:35 dlowe: I believe you. 16:33:36 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go home"] 16:33:43 *dlowe* starts talking about lisp again 16:33:48 dlowe: yeah, some spots have barely been cleaned up. politics :( 16:35:03 jeng: you make out ok with Ike? 16:35:29 if we can find a couple more people, we could have an h-town lisp meeting ! 16:35:45 (watch me veer dangerously close to on topic) 16:36:15 salex: That is a good idea. 16:37:12 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAF682.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:29 Seems like there would be at least some schemers around UH and rice 16:37:45 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AD777.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:37:50 -!- ths__ is now known as ths 16:37:51 i haven't run into them, but i haven't looked hard 16:38:05 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:39:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:41:24 do what I did in Auckland: call a meeting of a Lisp user-group and see how many people respond. 16:42:54 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:04 jeng: make it a texas lisp meeting and do it in austin. 16:44:13 jeng: then you could pull from dallas, houston, san antonio, and austin. 16:44:44 bougyman: That's cheating! There are plenty of Lispers in Austin. 16:44:47 pffft. that's austin's answer to everything :) 16:45:15 ferTej [n=fernando@184.Red-83-37-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:21 < in dallas, just don't want to drive all the way to muggytown. 16:45:23 er houston. 16:45:40 ROBULEO [n=asi103@184.Red-83-37-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:41 austins not much better that way.. 16:45:59 i've never been in austin when it was humid i guess. 16:46:05 -!- ROBULEO [n=asi103@184.Red-83-37-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 16:46:09 er, sorry. i meant the drive 16:46:11 houston was the worst, though. 16:46:16 houston weather is worse 16:46:23 'course, not so much this time of year 16:46:24 oh, nah, austin is 3.5 hours from me. 16:46:29 im' on the south side of dfw 16:46:55 what would it take you to houston? 16:47:03 5 or 6 16:47:09 depends on how bad 45 is. 16:47:13 *salex* nods 16:47:19 it was a mess last time I drove it, i ended up on 16 most of the way. 16:47:20 hey, is the next boston lisp meeting on the 27th, or some other time? 16:48:26 I would make the drive to austin 16:49:05 amikrop [n=indy@athedsl-4413799.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:49:14 sykopomp: the 27th 16:49:22 What is the difference between gnu clisp and gcl? 16:49:24 i've done it for simliar reasons (drive to austin), so i guess i might again... 16:49:31 D: I can't make it then 16:49:36 (for example, in Debian, they are seperat packages) 16:49:41 * seperate 16:49:58 they are different entities 16:50:00 amikrop: Pretty much the only thing they have in common is that they both are ~Common Lisp implementations. 16:50:09 amikrop: they're actually completely different implementations. 16:50:24 amikrop: and google really is your friend in these respects ;) 16:50:45 I see. Which one do you generally recommend? 16:50:52 sbcl 16:50:54 *salex* ducks 16:51:17 amikrop: of those two, clisp is nicer for most purposes. 16:51:21 gcl is the only one I hadn't tried. 16:51:28 clisp has by far the best repl, out of the box. 16:51:39 amikrop: more seriously, what platform? but yes, what Xach said. 16:51:39 tab complete and good history and readline support and all that. 16:51:44 bougyman: Aha. Deos it produce native object code? 16:51:53 * native machine coed 16:51:55 amikrop: http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl/ 16:51:56 * code 16:52:00 that doesn't specify, exactly. 16:52:07 just says it's C-speed by way of pointers. 16:52:09 amikrop: in some circumstances 16:52:11 amikrop: There's a Lisp implementation survey recently done by dan weinreb. 16:52:39 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:52:43 last release was 2005, though? 16:53:12 stassats`: gcl produces native machines code, always, right? 16:53:17 * machine 16:53:19 amikrop: SBCL produces pretty good native code. If you read the articles of Didier Verna, you will see that it's comparable to the speed of code produced by GCC. 16:53:22 amikrop: don't know 16:53:48 "comparable" is such an excellent word 16:53:49 gcl actually uses gcc to compile 16:53:57 so it would be identical, no? 16:54:01 Xof: sorry! 16:54:08 Xof: isn't it! 16:54:39 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 16:54:45 also, getting too hung up on that probably isn't a good idea unless you have very particular performance characteristics you are asking about 16:54:48 *Xach* adds http://l1sp.org/lisp/survey 16:54:56 bougyman: absolutely not. 16:55:04 Xof: it reminds me of my students, when forced to explain what the arrows mean in their diagrams, often say "is related to". 16:55:15 isn't that survery ooooold? 16:55:16 pkhuong: why so? 16:55:28 sykopomp: No. 16:56:00 madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.111] has joined #lisp 16:56:11 amikrop: how about telling us what it is that you really want to know? 16:56:22 dwave [i=dwave@100.84-49-235.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:04 bougyman: because there's a dozen different ways to perform the same operation, and there is no guarantee that GCL or GCC are smart enough to get it right. 16:57:18 pkhuong: oh I understand that part of it. 16:57:39 is there a function like map that doesn't return the results? I want to iterate over multiple lists (like (map 'list (lambda (x y) (foo x y)) x-list y-list)) 16:57:47 pkhuong: but the potential (if the translation layer is working properly) is there for not only comparable, but exact same speed. 16:57:49 madnificent: (map nil ...) 16:57:56 mapc? 16:57:58 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 16:58:02 Xach: sweet, thanks 16:58:06 there are many options 16:58:07 it returns, but not collects 16:58:08 OK, I am covered, thanks, again. 16:58:10 -!- amikrop [n=indy@athedsl-4413799.home.otenet.gr] has left #lisp 16:58:34 bougyman: similarly, since SBCL emits machine code, the potential is there for the same speed as hand-rolled asm. 16:58:47 it achieves that sometimes, doesn't it? 16:58:53 what would be the 'right' way? as in: is there a consensus amongst programmers? is there a significant difference in speed? 16:59:04 stassats`: nice too, perhaps even better 16:59:12 sbcl is the speediest, is it not, in general? 16:59:16 madnificent: Depending on what you're doing, using LOOP may be more readable. 16:59:27 i saw something on clozure's site about them being sbcl-speed, too. 16:59:43 bougyman: depends on the operation. 16:59:44 Why is it that so many people tonight, when asked a simple question (after lots of questions on their part), just quit? 17:00:04 Anyway, dinner. I'll be back later. 17:00:09 i tested SCL today, it's produce pretty speedy numerical code 17:00:10 beach: didn't expect the franco-swedish inquisition, perhaps 17:00:20 s/it's/it/ 17:00:22 tcr: with map, it is a one-liner. loop would be too much to read... but idd another option :D 17:00:28 bougyman: many tasks don't need a particularly smart compiler to emit excellent (compared to the theoretical optimum) code. 17:00:39 Xach: I think you might be right... 17:00:46 beach: enjoy your meal 17:01:01 i just hate setting up asdf and all the dependencies on non-sbcl implementations. 17:01:09 it's always a new pain. 17:01:11 doing gcl now. 17:01:22 bougyman: people are dedicating time to make your life easier in that regard 17:01:29 though not for gcl. who the hell cares about gcl? 17:01:50 doesn't seem like many people. hasn't been a release since '05 on their site. 17:01:59 why do you? 17:02:19 bougyman: use cvs version 17:02:22 but still, cmucl and clisp both took some finangling to get peachy. 17:02:33 Xach: just curiosity, not caring. 17:02:37 re: gcl. 17:04:31 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:53 -!- SimonAdameit [n=simon@rlh.mediascape.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:12:36 wormil [n=Miranda@adsl-070-155-056-058.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:36 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 17:18:10 -!- gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:36 -!- ferTej [n=fernando@184.Red-83-37-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:21:40 uh oh 17:21:49 MHOOO [n=nah@3-054.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:22:25 cffi is broken for CVS sbcl 17:22:39 due to a reference to #'sb-alien::shared-object-file 17:23:00 nikodemus_: does that ring any bells? 17:23:39 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:25:09 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 17:25:11 could somebody point to a resource where I can read (and get introduced to) setting the argument and result types of functions? 17:25:22 Xach: fixed in darcs 17:25:44 stassats`: ok. 17:25:56 luis: when is the next cffi release? 17:27:08 there you see what happens when you use internals! 17:27:13 (sorry about that) 17:27:15 i see, i see 17:27:34 everyone suffers, and a puppy is swatted with a rolled-up magazine 17:27:43 it would be good to get a list of various internals that libraries use 17:27:56 that might not seem bad, but the magazine is Computer Shopper circa 1993 17:28:05 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:28:17 so there would be at least some theoretical hope of providing supported interfaces to use instead 17:28:32 madnificent: You can declare it via the ftype declaration specifier, and using the function type specifier. 17:28:50 tcr: I'll google for that :) 17:29:00 clhs ftype 17:29:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ftype.htm 17:29:04 clhs function 17:29:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm 17:30:50 would baby jesus cry if i made CL:OPEN create streams that didn't play with SERVE-EVENT by default? 17:31:36 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 17:32:17 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a764805ad363619a] has joined #lisp 17:32:43 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@87-205-34-181.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:46 Dodek [i=dodek@87-205-34-181.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 17:33:55 tcr: that was actually quite readable for someone new to it 17:37:17 *Xach* feels queasy about the cffi "fix" 17:37:30 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.4] has joined #lisp 17:39:22 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:51 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 17:40:24 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:41:29 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-48-185.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:43:37 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:21 pjb [n=pjb@81-66-48-185.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:44:23 elurin [n=user@85.99.88.2] has joined #lisp 17:44:32 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:47:35 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:50:27 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:50:50 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:52:41 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:53:09 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:54:45 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 17:55:22 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.4] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:53 hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:31 schasi [n=schasi@p54A26CE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:02 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:59:56 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 18:01:39 -!- xbxbxb [n=xb@p54ABD846.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:02:06 -!- nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:17 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:38 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-87-37.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:56 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@duan145-125-dhcp.colorado.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:34 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-23-130.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:46 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@221.219.123.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:49 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AFB44.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:23:44 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:25:22 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:48 jajcloz [n=jaj@wireless-19-150.media.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:26:50 CL-USER> (subseries (series 'a 'b) 0 10) 18:27:05 could anyone please explain me why this LIST happen to be there? 18:29:27 Dodek: what list? 18:29:47 the symbol LIST 18:29:59 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:30:10 Dodek: I'm not seeing the symbol LIST in what you just wrote, sorry. 18:30:29 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 18:31:38 so how should understand that printed representation? 18:32:07 i'd rather expect seeing #Z(A B A B A B A B A B) 18:32:17 Dodek: I don't think we got your whole message. 18:32:19 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.111] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:26 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:27 oh. 18:32:30 *Xach* sure didn't get it 18:32:32 Dodek: all we saw was "CL-USER> (subseries (series 'a 'b) 0 10)" 18:32:37 one line 18:32:49 and now? 18:32:52 at least, all I saw 18:32:59 Dodek: Nothing at tall 18:33:01 all 18:33:07 OH! 18:33:21 You mean why the list (subseries (series 'a 'b) 0 10) was at your repl? 18:33:27 something is wrong with my irc client then. 18:33:32 schme_, no. 18:33:34 use lisppaste 18:33:36 i'll paste it to lisppaste 18:34:32 Dodek pasted "strange series behaviour" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68696 18:34:32 always a good idea for code 18:35:24 and, what do you think? 18:36:30 ths [n=ths@X5682.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 18:36:31 if only rahul were here :( 18:36:49 where is he anyway 18:36:49 Dodek: I think I don't use series. Does seem odd. 18:36:55 sohail: working, probably. 18:37:02 didn't his industry implode? 18:37:19 still, work is no excuse for not idling in #lisp ;-) 18:37:25 clearly 18:37:27 sohail: perhaps at a fast-food restaurant, then 18:37:42 that would make it more difficult to be on #lisp 18:37:44 that probably makes it hard to idle in #lisp, at any rate 18:38:06 re 18:38:22 Dodek: I get the #Z(A B A B A B A B A B) 18:38:33 Dodek: So I guess one of us is broken. 18:38:36 so got the authors of tutorial. 18:38:46 that's why i think my result is kind of strange. 18:39:02 what was his industry? 18:39:10 Hmmm. No clue here. 18:39:15 Maybe you use some odd CL? 18:39:27 sbcl, series installed via asdf-install 18:39:30 Or some bizarre series 18:39:32 oh. 18:39:37 Ya that IS an odd CL. 18:40:29 which CL you don't find odd? 18:41:25 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:41:37 argh. 18:41:45 which CL you don't find odd? 18:41:52 Dodek: Just kidding there with the CL. It seems very odd though. But I'm sure everyone agrees on that :) 18:41:55 in case you didn't receive it. 18:42:11 Ya I got it. 'twas a stoopid joke :) 18:42:17 Or you are not drunk enough ;) 18:42:39 that one's possible :) 18:42:40 *schme* stops flooding the channel for a bit 18:45:24 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-108.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:25 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:47:02 dodek: i get the same result from 1.0.21 and fresh asdf-install of series, for what it's worth 18:47:15 something odd there, but I dunno what 18:47:52 hopefully it's series brokenness, not sbcl brokenness 18:47:53 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:47:55 salex: that's a bug that has been fixed in HEAD 18:48:02 *rsynnott* feels secure in his non-use of series 18:48:05 i'm trying to run tests 18:48:56 it's constantly asking me for " which CL you don't find odd? 18:48:57 Dodek: Just kidding there with the CL. It seems very odd though. But 18:48:57 I'm sure everyone agrees on that :) 18:48:57 in case you didn't receive it. [20:42] 18:49:00 Ya I got it. 'twas a stoopid joke :) 18:49:03 Or you are not drunk enough ;) 18:49:06 that one's possible :) 18:49:06 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@87-205-34-181.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:49:48 Dodek [i=dodek@87-205-34-181.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 18:49:50 fe[nl]ix: ah, good to know 18:49:53 sorry. 18:49:56 Dodek: did you catch that? 18:50:04 it's a known bug, fixed in head 18:50:15 HEAD, even. 18:50:15 did you receive flood from me? 18:50:20 yes 18:50:24 much? 18:50:38 pasting your buffer, right? less than a dozen lines 18:51:06 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 i wonder why ERC doesn't have any protection from it 18:51:46 or why i didn't notice i'm sending whole buffer... 18:52:17 HEAD? what do you mean by that? 18:53:41 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:56:36 latest version in the version control system 18:56:36 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:57:09 Dodek: typically the most recent version of the main trunk in a revision control system 18:58:17 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:58:35 hmm, zero length strings in seos-write-string. I thought someone fixed that in mcclim ages ago. 19:02:20 fresh checkout from CVS does seem to work. 19:04:40 netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has joined #lisp 19:04:44 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:09:00 ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-138-16-90.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:09:00 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46644.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:19 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 19:10:35 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2BBC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:13:12 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:35 smithzv [n=smithzv@duan145-125-dhcp.colorado.edu] has joined #lisp 19:15:37 Dodek: our work here is done 19:15:41 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-195-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 19:16:44 you reminded me i didn't thank you, so i do it now. 19:17:16 nah, thank fe[nl]ix, I didn't do anything! 19:18:40 so i thank those who helped me. 19:18:58 have fun with series :) 19:18:59 dlow1 [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:06 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-152-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:38 -!- ivansto [i=ivans@93-138-13-52.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:52 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:25:25 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E462FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:28:45 *Xach* finds himself somewhat in need of directory renaming and deletion 19:29:14 like, access to do so? 19:29:45 Like the ability to do it on N lisps without too much hassle. 19:29:48 shouldn't rename-file work on directories? 19:30:00 Xach: cl-fad does deletion, anyway, I think 19:30:05 stassats`: I don't think so. 19:30:21 Xach: it might be simpler to shell out. 19:30:43 than to try to cajole more than zero Lisps into renaming or deleting a directory. 19:30:52 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:31:05 seems like that would be a necessary function to have. 19:31:35 Xach: works in sbcl and ccl, at least 19:31:39 bougyman: it tends to be badly catered for cross-platform 19:31:46 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:31:54 early javas couldn't do a lot of stuff with directories 19:32:13 stassats`: oh, that seems like a perverse trick. 19:32:21 rsynnott: is that because MS didn't treat directories as files before 2k3? 19:32:21 stassats`: but thanks for making me rethink it. 19:32:37 bougyman: no idea 19:32:41 I wonder if I can manage to cause everyone's heads to explode by reciting the list of crazy file systems that the X3J13 committee took as serious constraints on a portable file system interface. 19:32:44 Xach: all-the-worlds-a-file in unix, right? ;) 19:32:56 in both works only without trailing "/" 19:32:57 kreuter: i was just reading about that the other day. 19:33:05 kreuter: if that doesn't work, read a bit of the DICOM standard. 19:33:05 kreuter: ah, that's where pathnames came from, then 19:33:06 kreuter: don't you think it's time to update that? 19:33:10 salex: unix is a subset of all the systems i'd like to support, though 19:33:16 or, perhaps, a POSIX lisp implementation? 19:33:28 Xach: yeah, i know. 19:33:42 bougyman: in that case, you should certainly understand that directories didn't exist on the Crays of the 1980s, and so portable programs can't possibly care about deleting or renaming them! 19:34:19 bougyman: Clisp also stridently refuses to admit that directories are files. 19:34:21 *Xach* does not care about supporting crays yet 19:34:24 kreuter: the modern lisp implementations should (and it looks liek some do) get over that. 19:34:36 retroj [i=jjf@dialup-4.158.60.90.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:53 clisp also provides rename-directory 19:35:09 bougyman: well, yes. but sorting out your implementation is a long way from updating the standard... 19:35:23 bougyman: hey, I'm all for people using sensible implementations. 19:35:30 salex: understood. is there no feeling that the standard needs updating?; 19:35:42 and new versions of sbcl treat symlinks differently to old ones! 19:35:48 bougyman: tempered by a sense of what that would involve. 19:35:52 rsynnott: not very. 19:35:53 as I found out to my initial puzzlement the other day 19:35:56 nope, not very 19:35:58 time for trivial-rename-directory! 19:36:09 it seems to me a modern language not including sockets in the standard (as well as portable I/O) is a serious disadvantage. 19:36:17 it broke my badly-designed template cache, though :) 19:36:35 but seriously, some sort of portability library for filesystem access would be neat. 19:36:47 bougyman: yep. that's why no one uses C or C++ 19:36:48 rsynnott: I'm sorry. I really thought it was an improvement over the old approach. 19:37:00 kreuter: nope, it probably actually is 19:37:20 dlow1: C and C++ are implementation based now more than standards-based. 19:37:26 it's just I happened to be doing something slightly silly which depended on the old approach 19:37:31 bougyman: in what sense is it disadvantaged compared to a) many popular langages taht don't have a proper standard and b) c/c++ whatever that are standardized but do not have this in the standard 19:37:33 ack. I'm a dlow1 now? 19:37:34 -!- dlow1 is now known as dlowe 19:37:41 dlow1: that's what I fewar an old standard leads to. 19:37:47 fear, too. 19:37:52 bougyman: de facto is fine, de jure is a real pain in the ass 19:38:14 du jour is also a pain 19:38:23 salex: "proper standard" is definitely up for debate. 19:38:27 (nb: a well supported cross platform library woulnd't go amis) 19:38:34 i don't meet many C people who care about the standard, at all. 19:38:40 rsynnott: if you're really trying to get an identity across time, I don't know if relying on filenames (even resolved using realpath()) makes sense. 19:38:47 horrible old files :) 19:38:49 and lisp people both refer to the standard and work around it simultaneously. 19:38:55 bougyman: not really. I mean one from a recognized standards body (ANSI/ISO whatever) 19:39:06 which is what you are talking abou there, when you talk abou tchanging it 19:39:10 bougyman: the standard doesn't include certain things, which is fine 19:39:14 bougyman: i suspect that varies by community. i used to follow a project that would see massive complaints whenever code crept in that used, accidentally or no, gcc-only features. 19:39:16 salex: what makes those bodies more authorative, than, say, the languages author? 19:39:25 nothing but ambition and good sense prevents implementors from offering decent file system interfaces. 19:39:27 (it'd be hard to see how it could sensibly include threading, for instance) 19:39:27 it's separate argument about whethere or not that is the right way to go 19:39:32 which many implementations-standardized languages use as their standard. 19:39:33 *kreuter* hides his implementor hat. 19:40:06 bougyman: often there is no written standard for those languages 19:40:07 bougyman: it's sort of tautological (which doesn't make it better) 19:40:11 which can be a problem later 19:40:31 hello. I have a common-lisp program in which I load some user-made lisp files. During macroexpansion stage of this load, I would like to have access to the current line number of the reader. any thoughts? 19:40:34 rsynnott: how is a full implementation not a written standard? 19:40:36 just be clear that having an ANSI standard isn't all bonuses and ponies. 19:40:45 segyr [n=terje@ti311110a080-6560.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:40:50 lemonodor: right. there are different trade offs 19:40:54 bougyman: it's hard to tell what's accidental and what's intentional. 19:41:00 I'm totally for ignoring the ANSI standard filesystem access. :) 19:41:04 lemonodor: one of which is, updates are a big pita 19:41:10 if someone makes a simple alternative that actually works 19:41:53 foom: I don't think it's all wrong. just needs some keywords so you can turn down the dopey. 19:41:57 interesting thing i've found about standards based vs implementation based languages, standards-based seem harder to make portable than implementation based. 19:42:10 silenius [n=jl@i59F73B92.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:42:23 which is counter-intuitive, at first glance. 19:42:47 <_deepfire> I still wonder whether it's possible to make OPEN work on pathnames somehow representing URLs 19:43:01 no, with the latter you don't need to port to a bunch of implementations 19:43:01 _deepfire: that's what scieneer CL does. 19:43:03 _deepfire: i've missed that in lisp. 19:43:04 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:43:11 _deepfire: not conformingly. 19:43:13 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 19:43:17 it's been a pain to port screen scrapers to lisp because of that. 19:43:21 bougyman: i don't know that it is counterintuitive. 19:43:41 a) many of the languages that have been standardized are quite large 19:44:03 _deepfire: you can, of course, do whatever you want in _deepfire::open 19:44:20 b) if you find a problem with your imlementation based language porting, you can hack around it and make that standard everywhere 19:44:45 if you are implementing to a standard, your hands are more tied 19:44:50 salex: i think people are more willing to ignore or disregard what a committee has to say and less likely to do so wrt the author of the language. 19:45:00 <_deepfire> kreuter, no, I mean CL:OPEN, and I hoped that the nontrivially complicated logical hostname/logical pathname machinery has an indirection level for that 19:45:14 kreuter: are you saying that scl is not conforming? I think they parse URLs into pathnames with a special pathname host, or something 19:45:54 of course, following an implementation can tie you down, too 19:46:02 bougyman: prehaps it's more that language communities have different priorities. 19:46:22 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E461C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:22 doing OS-level threads that had to behave jsut like CPython threads would be awkward at best, for instance 19:46:33 what would you say the priorities look like in the lisp community? 19:46:38 oh, it's sort of the other way around, according to http://www.scieneer.com/scl/doc/pathnames.html. hmm 19:47:00 *Xach* enjoys the satirical MOTD fortunes about the lisp implementation changing from underneath all users in random directions 19:47:03 bougyman: i don't know that there is `a community' really 19:47:15 salex: i hear that a lot, and it makes me sad. 19:47:15 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:47:17 cmm: okay, I take it back. it'd would probably be conforming by fiat, since file-stream has an implementation-defined nature. 19:47:18 partially because it's been around so long 19:47:25 salex: how about you personally, then? 19:47:28 so there are fractured communities 19:47:29 however, ISTM that file-stream should be streams associated with, well, files. 19:48:15 in any case, there is no particularly definitive cl implementation, so it's hardly worth worrying about 19:48:28 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@87-205-34-181.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:48:47 bougyman: about standardization issues? I suspect the right thign to do at the moment is to hash things out in libraries. 19:49:12 bougyman: i'm not sure a single entity exists at the moment with both the interest and the pockets for a big push 19:49:13 i find things like cffi and cl-ppcre quite encouraging 19:49:21 yes 19:49:47 salex: that demands an active community! 19:50:07 or communities 19:50:11 bougyman: cl seems to be doing fairly well with it, all things considered 19:50:19 "lisp doesn't have a community, per-se" and "libraries will handle portability issues" are horizontally opposed. 19:50:24 there are highly portable libraries for most interesting things 19:50:38 and more all the time, it seems 19:50:53 bougyman: and by seeing where the libraries have been really polished gives you an idea where the interes lies 19:50:57 s/highly portable/widely ported/ 19:51:07 not that it matters in practice 19:51:13 bougyman: the point your missing is that while we may identify areas of the standar taht are outdated or missing 19:51:14 heh@cmm 19:51:17 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:51:19 i don't see perlisms in here much. 19:51:24 -!- segyr [n=terje@ti311110a080-6560.bb.online.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:51:32 that doesn't mean there is enough interest and talent in the same place to do something about it 19:51:39 let alont update teh standard 19:51:39 I used to write web stuff on openmcl and deploy on sbcl, without any difficulty 19:51:41 bougyman: It's a CL-Interpol-ism ;) 19:51:51 (back when my only computer was a PPC mac) 19:51:56 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAF682.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:52:00 cxml is also pretty rockin'! 19:52:00 I strongly suspect that few applications that anybody really cares about need to run on more than 2 or 3 implementations. 19:52:02 but in practice the standar does work well (see rysnnott's commetn) 19:52:24 the big issues i've had with portability seem to lie mostly in asdf, so perhaps that's my complaint. 19:52:40 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAF682.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:41 stuff tha tworks peachy on sbcl is utter fail on others' 19:52:57 there are places where if implementations didn't happen to converge on a common-but-not-required implementation strategy, i would be in lots of pain. 19:52:58 bougyman: can you cite examples? 19:53:00 (or, without any significant difficulty; UFFI for openmcl seemed to have slightly different thoughts on library paths to the linux sbcl one :) ) 19:53:11 things like "(unsigned-byte 8) streams do what you expect" 19:53:22 kreuter: can't get -typesetting installed on anything but sbcl. 19:53:28 or "(char-code #\a) is 97" 19:53:29 there are a few others. 19:53:37 Xach: they don't even on that particular one, do they? 19:53:40 bougyman: why do you blame ASDF for that? 19:53:50 kreuter: i don't. 19:54:06 rsynnott: well, they do what *i* expect. 19:54:07 kreuter: the symptom presents itself during asdf install though. 19:54:07 I noticed that a library developed largely on allegro was doing both write-sequences and formats into one 19:54:19 which apparently works on allegro, but doesn't on sbcl 19:54:20 only chandler likes asdf-install 19:54:32 rsynnott: that's a bivalent stream issue. 19:54:33 bougyman: that's like blaming make for something failing to compile. 19:54:35 I suspect that `real' standards are codependent with big industry, which is another reason that updating cl's dones't make a lot of sense right now 19:54:39 (this was cl-memcached; solution was just to put it all through flexi-streams 19:54:46 kreuter: for example: never calling truename ever, EVER, unless I explicitly ask for it 19:55:00 kreuter: not asdf itself, the packagers, i'd assume, are the culprits. 19:55:08 foom: in DIRECTORY, I assume you mean? 19:55:16 which raises quality control questions. 19:55:22 rsynnott: flexi-streams would not work if ub8 streams didn't all work about the same. 19:55:25 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 19:55:28 kreuter: yeah, there, and anywhere else 19:55:36 bougyman: that just means that there's something up with the offending library 19:55:49 i have no idea what kind of vetting asdf packages go through, may be my point. 19:55:51 it means that writing portable libraries is hard :) 19:55:55 bougyman: none 19:56:05 is there a "standard" for getting a package into where it can be asdf installable? 19:56:06 foom: well DIRECTORY even has a &KEY lambda-list, so that's implementors not working hard enough. 19:56:09 writing reusable libraries is pretty hard even without the "portable" bit. 19:56:10 none is scary. 19:56:12 because writing a portable library is less about writing portable code and more about porting code. 19:56:15 "none", that is. 19:56:16 bougyman: yes. 19:56:18 (I'd be shocked if there aren't many, many libraries for CPython which fail to work on Jython, say) 19:56:21 I guess RENAME-FILE calls TRUENAME too. 19:56:22 kreuter: yeah. some implementors added an extension 19:56:32 bougyman: make a tarball, sign it, make a cliki page that links to tarball. 19:56:42 rsynnott: esp since jython claims compatibility with an ancient version of python 19:56:47 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 19:56:51 bougyman: asdf and asdf-install are not the same thing 19:57:11 I'm unconvinced that any language solves this portability between implementation thing well 19:57:17 rsynnott: the last release was for python 2.2 19:57:22 most python libraries don't run on that these days 19:57:25 rsynnott: none that i've seen 19:57:25 salex: i mean asdf-install:install-able, then. 19:57:32 rsynnott: and so the alternative is to stick with one implementation. which can work very well. 19:57:47 bougyman: ah, well as Xach said, you have to put a signed tarball in the righ tplace 19:57:55 lemonodor: but which may not be practical with cl for a variety of reason 19:57:55 s 19:57:59 but nobody is testing these globally or anything 19:58:03 *Xach* is happy enough writing his own applications assuming sbcl on linux 19:58:06 lemonodor: and if not well, less badly than a "no implementation left behind!" approach. 19:58:19 -!- jeng [n=user@75.110.231.66] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:58:29 *Xach* is also happy when the libraries he shares work in lots of places 19:58:39 indeed! 19:58:47 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46644.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:58:59 Xach: that's what I do, write in sbcl on linux. 19:59:01 let users to port it 19:59:04 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 19:59:13 but I test in clisp, so i make sure it works on at least both of them by design. 19:59:26 all this bumps into getting-what-you-pay-for issues, of course 19:59:34 I started leaving ACL behind when they started expiring free licenses every 30 days. 19:59:45 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 19:59:54 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 19:59:59 ah, acl of the modern mode 20:00:08 I wonder does anyone actually use that 20:00:15 is that allegro? 20:00:15 i like not introducing gratuitous incompatibilities. sometimes it's easy to make minor screwups in that department that are easy to fix. 20:00:25 allegro and lispworks are two i've avoided. 20:00:50 *Xach* tests things on the allegro and lispworks trials most of the time 20:00:57 things i want to share, that is 20:01:17 Xach: right, but there's a big difference beween making a nod towards portability, and actually verifying and staying on top of it 20:01:39 yeah, it depends on how much work it is. 20:02:04 having even non-commercial access to scieneer cl means i will give it a try the next time i make a nod. 20:02:18 like so much else in the free/oss/whateveryouwanttocall it. The things that either aren't fun or have serious diminshing returns tend not to get done so much 20:02:44 and different things are fun to different people 20:02:58 you also have the bother of having to keep about five different implementations up to date 20:03:07 *Xach* actually kind of likes writing documentation and the thought process it provokes 20:03:22 Xach: true. but documentation and QA testing don't seem to have as many fans as new hackery 20:03:29 salex: that's for sure. 20:03:33 let alone proper maintenance coding :) 20:03:42 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:03:45 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 20:03:56 anyone here use elephant, by the way? 20:04:09 QA testing is so 1990 20:04:35 bougyman: meh. call it whawt you want, it's all the same 20:04:44 it's most certainly not. 20:04:54 test-first and QA are opposites. 20:04:55 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:05:25 yeah, and the industry has shifted completely over to pure test-first 20:05:28 tell me another one 20:06:02 AWizzArd [n=ath@148-208-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:04 i wish! 20:06:15 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:06:15 anyway, i meant more the side of checking portability. i don't care if you do this cts integration or test suite or whatever 20:06:35 it's a pita, and the fact nobody is doing it for lots of cl stuff is hardly surprising 20:06:48 it's probably natural that where libraries are largely community-produced, testing and compatibility aren't big priorities 20:06:53 bougyman: well, might improve things a little. there are not silver bullets 20:06:55 those things, after all, are boring :) 20:07:01 the parts of the industry which still use non agile methods are extremely stale. 20:07:03 exactly 20:07:07 even MS finally moved to LEAN 20:07:07 if only a machine could be persuaded to do some of the work 20:07:22 bougyman: and in 5 -10 years they'll all be on something else 20:07:29 doens't change the fundamentals one bit 20:07:36 Xach: if only! 20:07:46 agile does change the fundamentals, i guess is what i'm saying. 20:07:57 bougyman: ok, but you're wrong as far as I can see 20:08:04 but lets not get into that 20:08:29 Xach: if people shipped test suites etc. a fair bit could be automated i guess, given a small farm of machines 20:09:29 *Xach* vows to find a way to make a bad "test sours" joke in a project sometime 20:10:41 lemonodor had a nice test that gwking meant to follow up on regarding installability of asdf-install libraries 20:10:52 as far as i can tell gwking did it for a bit but stopped 20:10:58 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 20:11:41 rsynnott: and expensive. 20:11:49 Xach: Oh yeah, I remember that. I started to screw with it so it'd run test-ops, too. 20:12:15 *Xach* would like to revive that sometime 20:12:30 not a bad idea, that 20:12:33 Agreed. 20:12:35 Xach: i was just thinking about that the other day. 20:12:48 commity! 20:13:24 we need a website first .. then we'll vote for the board seats and start collecting donations! :P 20:13:32 heh 20:13:34 gloaming [n=steve@c-76-113-7-71.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:38 more time! 20:15:10 Oddly enough, when I have the house to myself, with time to work on all my projects to my heart's content without interruptions, I goof off too much. I actually work better if the wife and kids are home (but I'm not directly responsible for the kids). 20:15:18 drewc: hang on. I think you need a website subcommittee first. 20:15:44 i see no reason why something like clbuild can't be used to ma 20:15:55 ferret alert! 20:16:15 your ferret has opinions about clbuild? 20:16:18 smart ferret. 20:16:23 ... manage the tarballs that asdf-install uses. 20:17:02 i'm curious about the deveoper side of that. 20:17:05 drewc: ISTR the kool kids saying that tarballs smelled like released software, and that releases were for lame-os. 20:17:16 kenan [n=dasdasd@88.238.43.178] has joined #lisp 20:17:17 right ... so 20:17:18 my impression of clbuild is "a bunch of #lisp guys add packages" 20:17:33 -!- kenan is now known as Guest15921 20:17:50 not that a bunch of #lisp guys aren't awesome, but i wonder how someone outside the club gets their software noticed and included. 20:18:05 *Xach* looks around for clbuilders 20:18:06 Xach: excellent point. 20:18:09 Xach: They have to join the community! 20:18:21 what community? 20:18:30 Xach: there is something to be said for the cliki model. 20:18:45 the "any crackhead with a browser" model 20:19:31 from looking at the clbuild package lisp, there doesn't seem to be much gwkingware, for example. 20:19:38 "system list" rather 20:19:49 hi, i m newbie n i need some info about arrays in lisp can anyone help me please:) 20:19:52 or walter pelissero-ware (but he doesn't do cliki, either) 20:20:06 Guest15921: vectors 20:20:13 Guest15921: Don't ask to ask, just ask. 20:20:16 Guest15921: make-array is the way to make arrays. http://l1sp.org/cl/make-array has some info about that. 20:20:16 bougyman: arrays. 20:20:17 yes exactly :) 20:20:54 drewc: cl-user.net has its own cloud of stuff that's interesting too, but it's outside the #lisp club 20:21:35 ok, so we need to start another club obviously. 20:21:37 kreuter: my pcl says make-array creates VECTORS 20:21:48 bougyman: among other things. 20:21:54 URL? 20:21:57 bougyman: a vector is an array. 20:21:58 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/collections.html 20:22:14 it talks about subtypes of vectors. 20:22:22 kreuter: http://l1sp.org/pcl/make-array of course ... 20:22:31 and the different types of sequences. 20:22:43 bougyman: i think you might need to reread it. 20:22:45 but sepcifically says that the VECTOR is the integer indexed type in LISP. 20:22:56 | MAKE-ARRAY is more general than VECTOR since you can use it to create arrays of any dimensionality as well as both fixed-size and resizable vectors. 20:22:57 bougyman: one characteristic of which isx that they are 1d 20:23:06 Vectors are Common Lisp's basic integer-indexed collection, and they come in two flavors 20:23:07 (sequences, i mean) 20:23:10 it's pretty clear. 20:23:19 bougyman: so far, everything you've said is true, but isn't the whole story. 20:23:19 Xach: download clbuild, add projects, publish darcs tree, send patch to mailing list? 20:23:35 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-35-86.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:23:36 i m tryin to build a basic search algorithm for a 3x3 magic square, so i need a 3 3 vector but i cant find the exact syntax with some examples anywhere 20:23:48 Guest15921: 3x3 array. 20:23:56 Guest15921: (make-array '(3 3)) would make a 3x3 array. 20:23:57 Xach: but clbuild isn't intended to be "everything"; it's intended to be best-of-breed FSVO"best" 20:24:01 (make-array `(3 3)) 20:24:02 clhs make-array 20:24:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 20:24:08 (as I understand lichtblau's motivation, anyway) 20:24:11 Guest15921: have a look at that. 20:24:22 ah, subnote #3: Vectors are called vectors, not arrays as their analogs in other languages are, because Common Lisp supports true multidimensional arrays. It's equally correct, though more cumbersome, to refer to them as one-dimensional arrays. 20:24:25 Krystof: i don't fault clbuild for including or excluding things, but i am curious about the process and policy. 20:24:33 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-1cc55c1786e81d3f] has left #lisp 20:24:33 fair enough 20:24:58 I fault it for not being closed under inter-system dependency! 20:25:01 so do i have to use array or vector? 20:25:05 (on random days of the week.) 20:25:14 how do i know which to choose? 20:25:15 Guest15921: you want a 3x3 array 20:25:57 Xach: a brief perusal of the mailing list suggests that people mail patches or suggestions and lichtblau acts on them 20:25:58 bougyman: right. people sometimes confuse what simple-vectors are, too 20:26:06 is cl-build meant to replace asdf? 20:26:07 (with a delay) 20:26:09 malune: no 20:26:09 malune: no. 20:26:27 oh ok 20:26:54 i haven't heard of it until recently 20:26:56 and how can i reference the third variable of my array for example? 20:27:08 Guest15921: are you doing homework? 20:27:25 Guest15921: your array is 2 dimensional, which means it doesn't have " a third variable" 20:27:49 Xach: do you think the fact that newbies constantly confuse asdf and asdf-install is relevant when looking for a new solution? :) 20:27:52 Guest15921: see aref and svref in clhs 20:27:59 drewc: yes. 20:28:03 Guest15921: at least, not until you agree about a scan order 20:28:11 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-243-101.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:17 (this is fundamental) 20:28:22 drewc: and the fact that asdf-install and asdf-install have similar names, too 20:28:35 is clbuild the new asdf-install? :) 20:28:36 very similar ;) 20:28:41 hello. 20:28:49 malune: not quite. the clbuild page is pretty good at answering FAQs. 20:28:57 malune: http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/ is it 20:29:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:18 Xach: yeah I read that, it doesn't really answer my question 20:29:42 malune: i don't think clbuild can be the new asdf-install, personally. 20:29:43 Xach: it says that clbuild downloads from svn / darcs etc whereas asdf-install downloads from cliki... 20:30:17 malune: i can't use clbuild because i'm behind a firewall, for example. 20:30:36 Xach: export HTTP_PROXY ? 20:30:59 Xach: oh yeah, sorry me being newb 20:30:59 malune: doesn't really work with all dvcs methods. 20:31:14 clbuild also requires a lot of extra software installed, and is very unix based. 20:31:28 yeah, i consider that a barrier to entry as well. 20:31:31 YMMV. 20:31:33 asdf-install is almost all lisp/all lisp 20:31:46 Lacrymology [n=IceChat7@200-127-213-3.cab.prima.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:31:57 except for the verification, uncompression, and unpacking. 20:32:11 surely everyone has tar & pgp! 20:32:21 and doesn't asdf-install (but not asdf-install) use wget or something? 20:32:25 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:32:38 -!- hugo__ [n=hugo@89-180-253-141.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:41 kreuter: hmm, i didn't think so, but i haven't checked recently. 20:32:41 I'm really really new at this, can someone check this and tell me why doesn't it work? 20:32:43 http://pastebin.com/d6eb510ba 20:32:46 when asdf-install was written, everyone who installed sbcl and checked the release signature had tar and pgp 20:32:52 admittedly not always GNU tar and pgp... 20:32:57 hugo__ [n=hugo@89-180-251-150.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 20:33:12 i find asdf-install's inclusion with sbcl pretty dubious too. 20:33:14 Lacrymology: in the future, we prefer lisppaste 20:33:17 lisppaste: url? 20:33:18 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 20:33:28 Xach: really? That I find surprising 20:33:37 Xach: at least it doesn't include asdf-install. that would be awful. 20:33:47 kreuter: confusion would reign. 20:34:08 (the more I drag out this gag, the funnier I find it.) 20:34:26 dew: ok, good to know.. still.. what's the problem? I'm guessing either something with the lets or the while 20:34:29 (the idea was to allow the sbcl user to bootstrap a useful world from what was distributed. Hey ho) 20:34:30 *Xach* found out "tar" is easier than he thought today 20:34:48 Krystof: and it works well for that 20:34:50 Lacrymology: what is while? 20:35:05 Lacrymology: what are you trying to do? are you looking for an iteration in there? 20:35:06 *Xach* has a 100-line program that usefully & portably unpacks all "normal" files in a tarfile. 20:35:12 Xach: distinctly from froyd's archive? 20:35:24 Krystof: yeah. archive doesn't work for me. 20:35:43 salex: I'm trying to produce the multiples of x that are smaller than max 20:35:54 Krystof: the example code to unpack creates the directory & file structure, but the files are all empty. i'm not sure what's up and there's no documentation. 20:36:08 lacrymology pasted "multiples-of-up-to" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68706 20:36:10 okay 20:36:13 Krystof: and, as it turns out, the file format is so simple it was easy to get a smaller program that does what i need. 20:36:34 Lacrymology: so you have "while" wher you want a loop of some sort 20:36:35 (i don't need to unpack cpio files, for example, or create tar files) 20:36:36 why? 20:37:24 salex: because I'm comming from like 10 years of programming in languages in which "whiles" are loops 20:37:33 i m reading practical common lisp, is there any other books that you can advice? and is corman lisp a good implementation? 20:38:01 Guest15921: corman lisp is ok. if you're using windows, i think the lispworks demo might be a little easier to use and more complete. 20:38:14 Lacrymology: and when your runtime told you while was not defined, it didn't tip you off? 20:38:30 Lacrymology: anywayl, you can do this with loop (or other ways) 20:39:04 and about books? 20:39:16 Paradigms of AI Programming is a good Common Lisp book. 20:39:33 salex: emacs seemed to think it existed, and it compiled ok 20:39:50 Xach pasted "a minitar proof-of-concept" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68707 20:40:07 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 20:40:15 ok thanks for the answers 20:40:15 Lacrymology: emacs is the editor 20:40:32 when you ran it, it should complain that while doesn't exist 20:40:38 that doesn't stop it compiling 20:40:48 yes, that's what it did 20:40:54 anyway, you can do something like (loop for n from x below max collecting n) 20:41:07 (loop for n upto max collect (* x n)) 20:41:10 wait, soru 20:41:10 I'd like to avoid (loop) 20:41:21 (loop for n from x upto max by x collecting n) 20:41:23 for now 20:41:24 Lacrymology: why? 20:41:50 you wanted to use "while" as a loop but you want to avoid "loop" as a loop 20:41:53 wtf? 20:41:54 because I want to get used to "lipsy" coding, and it looks awfully not like it 20:42:06 Xach: I don't know if you care, but unpack will do odd things for suitably evil file/directory names 20:42:07 Lacrymology: you speak nonsense. 20:42:20 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Success] 20:42:32 yeah nobody that's writes lisp uses loop 20:42:43 Lacrymology: look into just about any library, and you will encounter good old loop 20:42:49 Krystof: true. it needs more sanity checking on the pathnames. 20:42:55 LOOP is a DSL for iteration included in the ANSI common lisp standard.. it doesn't get much more lispy than that, 20:42:56 drewc: come on, there's plenty people out there who don't like the loop. I'm not saying I don't, I don't even know it yet.. 20:43:08 xbxb [n=xb@p54A9EBFD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:17 Lacrymology: Who doesn't like loop? 20:43:17 there's nothing particularly wrong with it 20:43:25 it's really very nice once you get used to it 20:43:25 me 20:43:26 Lacrymology: you can use do as well, but after a while you will see how easy & powerful loop is. 20:43:33 i donno about lisp too much but is it important if it is lispy or not when it does what you need? 20:43:39 'do', on the other hand, is evil :) 20:43:39 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54A9EBFD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:43:41 it is terribly easy to write loop code that executes differently in different lisp implementations 20:43:50 do is not evil 20:43:56 Krystof: i had leading slashes in mind, in particular. what sprang to your mind? 20:44:08 things that look like logical pathnames 20:44:19 it parses them as namestrings? 20:44:21 Krystof: there are issues with extended loop forms, but for the example and hand i find it particularly well suited. 20:44:23 things that match the lisp implementation's wild pathname syntax 20:44:24 xbxb [n=xb@p54A9EBFD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:20 ok 20:45:26 thanks anyways 20:45:37 I'll use the loop until I find my documentation back 20:45:41 =P 20:45:48 documentation for what? 20:46:02 you can use do, or dotimes for simple iterations 20:46:04 fwiw 20:46:32 Xach: that's all the cases I can think of now; but this is pathnames we're talking about... 20:46:44 salex: documentation to know what are the do or dotimes parameters and in which order, it was a joke, mostly anyways 20:46:48 Lacrymology: there is ansi-cl as info-package for emacs. 20:47:38 David-A [n=David-A@c-798ce755.021-165-73746f23.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:47:48 Lacrymology: ah, i see. short (faceatious) answer is that do and loop do all the same things. with loop you'll be able to read it,but it won't do what you think it does. with do the probelm is reversed 20:48:11 heh 20:48:18 =) 20:49:01 mostly, really what's at work is that complicated iteration contraints are complicated, and you can't get rid of that 20:49:02 Lacrymology: for me, i need only some loop-patterns, but i really do not want to do them via DO. 20:50:41 jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:51 Lacrymology: also note that your particular problem was very loop-y anyway. Sometimes map/reduce type approaches are much nicer! 20:51:04 loop is dumb, all you need are tagbody and go 20:51:44 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@wireless-19-150.media.mit.edu] has quit [] 20:51:50 damn, i'm unproductive today 20:52:08 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 20:53:18 Krystof: re pathnames and unpack: urk. 20:53:40 jajcloz [n=jaj@wireless-19-150.media.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 20:53:42 silenius_ [n=jl@i59F73B92.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:53:44 <_deepfire> well, let us bring iterate into the discussion.. 20:53:47 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@wireless-19-150.media.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 20:53:55 let's not, iterate is dumb. 20:54:08 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 20:54:08 iterate isn't dumb, either 20:54:11 did anyone mention series? 20:54:19 it's extensible, which is nice 20:54:23 vixey: you did 20:54:25 I'm sure someone is supposed to mention it about now 20:54:26 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-161-191.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:54:59 salex: I was underwhelmed with its extensibility 20:55:25 well, it's pretty underwhelming. But infinite in ratio to loop's 20:55:36 so there is that 20:56:25 and the finding x maximizing (f x) sort of bits are nice, too 20:57:10 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:57:21 <_deepfire> and reliable indentability 20:57:29 almost there 20:57:42 now I find out that "last" returns a list, not hte last element thereof 20:57:48 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-122-206.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:06 (which I think is ridicullous, but whatever =P) 20:58:10 Lacrymology: yes. you only want the last one of thse? 20:58:16 it gives the last cons 20:58:27 Lacrymology: it is first/last for first and last cons 20:58:27 that is sensible, you can mutate it easily 20:58:31 or make the list longer 20:59:12 yeah, I undertand why it's useful 20:59:15 Lacrymology: because if you only want the largest muliple, you could just return that... 20:59:28 salex: no, I want the whole list 20:59:46 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:55 I'm trying to teach myself lisp through the euler project, I'm at problem 1 20:59:59 hans___ [n=H4ns@p57A0DC7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:04 ah, ok 21:00:44 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:48 salex I need to know when the last one I added is bigger than max and then drop it.. or even better, when the NEXT one will be bigger 21:01:10 *rvirding* good evening everyone 21:01:12 wait, wh'at the actual problem ? 21:01:19 what's 21:01:35 add all multiples of 3 and 5 below some number.. like 10000 or something 21:01:50 1000 21:02:12 it's a 3 lines program in python.. but I already know python =) 21:02:29 -!- mimies is now known as spiderbyte 21:03:53 (remove-if-not (lambda (n) (divides-p 3 n)) (iota 1000)) 21:04:05 with that sort of approach, i'm sure it's a 3 liner in cl too 21:04:19 divides-p and iota left as exercise for the reader ;) 21:05:10 -!- silenius [n=jl@i59F73B92.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:05:25 so your actual problem is, I suspect, one of those where reducing is nicer than an iteration 21:05:29 (: lists sum (lc ((<- n (: lists seq 1 1000)) (== (rem n 3) 0) (== (rem n 5) 0)) n)) 21:05:30 mayble not 21:05:35 -!- silenius_ [n=jl@i59F73B92.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:39 LFE 21:07:04 1 line 21:07:06 (loop for n to 1000 if (divides-3-and-5-p n) sum n) 21:07:41 need to define divides-3-and-5-p 21:07:46 what is that rvirding? 21:08:05 this weird syntax with : and <- 21:08:08 rvirding: well, my point was both of those were replaceable in place :) 21:08:18 LFE, Lisp Flavoured Erlang :-) 21:08:24 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@duan145-125-dhcp.colorado.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:08:25 oo.. 21:08:38 wouldn't lists:sum be better : 21:08:40 ? 21:08:44 salex: I don't understand "reducing", and there are solutions, and good solutions. I can't even code a solution in CL yet, so I'll be happy to be able to write the solution I could think of 21:08:53 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 21:09:03 (reduce #'+ (remove-if-not #'zerop (let ((list (make-list 1000))) (map-into list (lambda () (position nil list)))) :key (lambda (x) (mod x 15)))) 21:09:05 (lc ... ) is a list comprension to get list of numbers divides 3 and 5 21:09:09 also after I have the lists of multiples of 3 and 5, I need to remove duplicates 21:09:29 I would like applause, please 21:09:45 yours is longer ;-) 21:10:03 but neither seem to do what I need to do... 21:10:11 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["ciao"] 21:10:13 but they do what you said 21:10:17 i think 21:10:24 Lacrymology: no, that solves your problme 21:10:29 Lacrymology: there are many different ways 21:10:30 -!- dwave [i=dwave@100.84-49-235.nextgentel.com] has quit [No route to host] 21:10:31 (collect-sum (choose-if (lambda (n) (or (= (mod n 3) 0) (= (mod n 5) 0))) (scan-range :upto 1000))) 21:10:36 (since Rahul isn't around) 21:10:40 (the applause is not for the length, but for the rather beautiful definition of iota buried in the middle of it 21:10:50 why are all of you people testing for divisibility by 3 and 5 separately? 21:11:10 Krystof because 3 is divisible by 3 and not by either 5 or 15...? 21:11:10 what happened to rahul ? 21:11:10 (loop for i from 0 upto 1000 when (zerop (* (mod i 5) (mod i 3))) sum i) 21:11:26 Krystof: Well, his english could be parsed as "multiples of (3 & 5)" or "multiples of 3" and "multiples of 5" 21:11:31 yeah, I see 21:11:41 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:45 read as (mutliples of either 3 or 5, no repetitions, please) 21:11:59 the usual way to do that is sum the multiples of 3 and the multipes of 5 then take out 15 21:12:06 for double counting ( 21:12:10 p8m's answer is neater 21:12:19 -!- David-A [n=David-A@c-798ce755.021-165-73746f23.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 21:12:21 but I still haven't had applause for my iota, dammit 21:12:22 (: lists sum (lc ((<- n (: lists seq 1 1000)) (or (== (rem n 3) 0) (== (rem n 5) 0))) n)) 21:12:25 fe[nl]ix: He's just not around as much ... his job isn't lisp anymore, so I imagine that's part of it. 21:12:28 salex: 15 what? 21:12:29 Krystof: i like your iota 21:12:33 *rvirding* applause 21:12:47 Lacrymology: 3*5 , as in, the double counted multiples 21:12:59 p8m: and you can remove "from 0" also 21:13:16 salex: I know, but I mean.. 15 for every how many would that be? 21:13:17 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:18 that's the way youd write it out combinatorially, so you can line by line convert that to stuff like above 21:13:31 Lacrymology: all of the multiples of 15 21:13:36 ohhh 21:13:37 'cause you've already counted them 2x 21:13:46 ok, now I get it 21:14:11 anyways, I'd like all of you to know that you're mentally masturbating with your knowledge and not helping me at all ;) 21:14:19 so that's very straigntforward but not the tightest code, as you see 21:14:46 how was p8m's answer not helping you? 21:14:50 Lacrymology: How does that not help you? You can look into how each of the solutions works. 21:15:00 salex: maybe I lost it in the crowd 21:15:01 (map-into '#1=(make-list 10) (lambda () (position nil '#1#))) ; maximally evil 21:15:10 Lacrymology: you might want to learn to help yourself then, as this is quality help you are getting. 21:15:28 patco444 [n=pldianov@212.25.60.98] has joined #lisp 21:15:42 whoops 21:15:59 (map-into '#1=#.(make-list 10) (lambda () (position nil '#1#))) ; maximally evil and less wrong than the last one 21:15:59 stassats: thanks, good to know 21:16:36 -!- hans__ [n=H4ns@p57A0FE68.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:16:38 -!- patco444 [n=pldianov@212.25.60.98] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:17:07 drewc: I think you very much know that (reduce #'+ (remove-if-not #'zerop (let ((list(make-list 1000))) (map-into list (lambda () (position nil list)))) :key (lambda (x) (mod x 15)))) isn't help for someone who's writing their very first program in a language 21:17:39 Lacrymology: It helps to work from the inside out. 21:17:46 Like, what does (mod x 15) do? 21:18:05 I don't know half the syntax. I don't know what #'+ means, for example 21:18:24 Lacrymology: actually i wouldn't presume what i think, were i you. 21:18:28 Lacrymology: And I think the type of help you got was because of your "it's a three-liner in Python" comment ;) 21:18:32 Lacrymology: look it up! 21:18:36 Lacrymology: then you definitely need to read some introductory book 21:18:37 chls #' 21:18:41 clhs #' 21:18:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm 21:18:51 minion: tell Lacrymology about PCL 21:18:52 Lacrymology: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:19:51 Lacrymology: maybe you need a short intro (shorter than pcl, but less complete): look for successful lisp by d. lam(p)kins. 21:19:52 sellout: I know, I never meant to say it wasn't in lisp, actually I'd thought it was like that. And I know how to go and find out what every piece of code means, which doesn't mean that that's helping someone out 21:20:08 of course it ist 21:20:10 imagine you ask someone to help them learn spanish and you throw a dictionary and a grammar at them 21:20:11 (: foo bar ... ) call function bar in module foo 21:20:32 anyways 21:20:37 I know, it was my fauly 21:20:48 (<- n ...) extract n from a list 21:20:56 well you can take these solutions apart.... and ask questions if you get stuck 21:21:05 that's true 21:21:36 rvirding: what is that? 21:21:43 anyways 21:21:44 gotta go 21:21:50 oh no! Don't go! 21:21:51 thanks everyone 21:22:02 stay around and masturbate with us some more! 21:22:12 rsynnott: it's LFE syntax for a list comprehension 21:22:12 Krystof I'm sorry, really. Can't help it. I'll bring the vaseline next week, tho 21:22:14 (a "thank you" would have been nice) 21:22:45 Krystof: I was going to thank you all a lot with honey on top, and a cherry right now, really 21:23:03 ah 21:23:15 ok, wait. Let me rewind. Everyone: I'm real thankful. I saved a log, and will be going through all that code you threw at me on the weekend 21:23:16 for real 21:23:19 -!- hans___ [n=H4ns@p57A0DC7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:23:29 good luck. Come back with questions! 21:23:35 I shall 21:23:40 (lc ( qualifiers ) exprs on each element 21:23:43 ) 21:23:50 -!- Lacrymology [n=IceChat7@200-127-213-3.cab.prima.net.ar] has quit ["IceChat - Chillin with the Best of em"] 21:23:58 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 21:24:16 I think the thing that annoys me about loop is that it is actually good for that kind of one-liner, and parsimonious for the really complicated loop with zillions of exits interacting with variable updates 21:24:30 rdd`` [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:24:47 but easy to get the middle-of-the-road mildly complicated iteration wrong in 21:24:59 true 21:25:02 bbl 21:25:04 -!- salex [n=user@ardbeg.math.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:25:09 -!- rdd` [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:25:20 hans__ [n=H4ns@p57A0DC7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:13 (lc ((<- e foo) (== (rem e 5) 0)) (* n 2)) 21:26:54 rvirding: It seems like you keep on typing in the wrong window; the REPL is --> that way 21:26:58 for each element e from foo where e divides by 5 return a lisp of 2 time e 21:26:59 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:27:19 typical list comprehension but in LFE syntax 21:27:41 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:28:02 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:28:10 i am irritated. many people convinced me (a novice) of using loop. now that i like it, people say it will not do what one thinks, etc. but maybe i am too much of a novice to use this kind of complications you are talking of ;) 21:29:30 -!- rdd`` is now known as rdd 21:31:25 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 21:31:48 tcr: no <- means extract from list 21:32:21 chitech [n=khuongdp@0x573a1fb3.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:34:01 to complicate matters you also have <= which means extract from binary :-) 21:34:02 do you have an LFE interepreter in erlang? 21:34:11 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:34:35 yes, but it is mainly a compiled system 21:34:38 Erlang is compiled 21:34:54 does it have some ability for concurrency? 21:34:55 trebor: I don't know why lispers have a problem with loop, it's a mini DSL 21:35:21 so (<= (f float (size 32)) bin) means extract 32 bit floats from binary bin 21:35:57 vixey: it has lots of concurrency ability, it *is* erlang with a lisp syntax and lisp goodies 21:36:07 trebor_home: make up your own mind... that's the nice thing about having one :) 21:36:08 cool 21:36:46 you know it really suprised me that erlang -define macro thing 21:37:00 I don't understand why they did not use the Prolog macros 21:37:30 is this lisp erlang thing actually online? 21:37:33 it's not prolog syntax anymore, it has just inherited stuff from it 21:37:47 drewc: problems arise when there is more than one ;) 21:37:55 -!- sovert [n=user@75.145.221.229] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:38:01 also vanilla erlang has lost code <-> data equality 21:38:18 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:38:26 you can get lfe from trapexit.org or github.com 21:38:44 so macros difficult 21:38:51 real macros anyway 21:39:09 in lfe code is data so it has lisp macros 21:39:14 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:39:28 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:40:45 younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:42:10 -!- Guest15921 [n=dasdasd@88.238.43.178] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:14 -!- AWizzArd [n=ath@148-208-dsl.kielnet.net] has left #lisp 21:44:33 -!- hans__ [n=H4ns@p57A0DC7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:45:19 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:50:52 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:52:58 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:33 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has left #lisp 21:58:35 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54A9EBFD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:59 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:03:16 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 22:04:49 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:20 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-105-3-106.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:06:45 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 22:08:32 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:36 kij [n=user@0x50a10372.bynxx12.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:12:57 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:04 -!- UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:22:18 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:26:06 -!- chitech [n=khuongdp@0x573a1fb3.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 22:26:36 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:26:39 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:28:50 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:22 avida [n=amani@c-71-198-246-95.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:07 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483CC1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:33:08 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:34:27 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:32 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.88.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:29 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-93-154.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:35:52 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:20 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:42:23 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:44:08 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAF682.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:44:17 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:15 disumu [n=disumu@p57A27D3A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:56 is there any way to slap a newline into a string without using format? 22:48:10 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 22:48:26 Yes, just slap it! 22:48:36 be brutal 22:48:49 I intend to be. 22:49:46 However, using format allows you to use ~NEWLINE, which makes nice indenting. 22:49:59 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 22:50:37 if your string is being used with a stream of some sort there's TERPRI :) 22:51:48 meh, I guess I'll just wrap my string with format and add a ~% 22:52:14 sykopomp: why not just slap the newlines as you said? 22:52:37 (princ "slapped 22:52:39 newline") 22:52:50 (concatenate 'string "foo" '(#\newline) "bar") 22:55:10 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 22:55:13 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:55:18 yup. Looks like format's the best choice 22:55:48 that's what most people use 22:56:35 You may also use #.(format nil ...) 22:59:18 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:01:48 -!- retroj [i=jjf@dialup-4.158.60.90.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net] has left #lisp 23:02:00 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:18 dalton [n=id@201-68-174-25.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:02:32 mrx2299 [n=mrx@p5486E4D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:38 -!- gloaming [n=steve@c-76-113-7-71.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:04:34 -!- xMilesTegx [n=Spune@c-69-137-224-211.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:05:16 hi, I can't manage to install asdf using clisp - the README tells me to (load "/path/to/load-asdf-install.lisp"), but that results in LOAD: A file with name ASDF-INSTALL-LIBRARY:defpackage.lisp does not exist - but it does exist in that directory, don't know what ASDF-INSTALL-LIBRARY is supposed to be though... 23:05:31 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:16 posix exec 23:06:16 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xsh/exec.html 23:06:24 thanks, specbot!> 23:07:01 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 23:07:06 there's also no "asdf.lisp" (referring to http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf-install/tutorial/setup.html) 23:07:20 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:59 ah, I got to install asdf-install first... 23:10:11 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:10:29 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:10:47 no... that link to "asdf" is linked to "asdf-install" on that page 23:11:06 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:13:14 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:13:36 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:08 -!- mrx2299 [n=mrx@p5486E4D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:14:54 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:42 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:31 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:08 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:23:48 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:27:25 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-35-86.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 23:29:53 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gtg"] 23:30:35 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-122-206.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:32:38 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 23:33:08 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 23:33:23 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 23:33:27 SimonAdameit [n=simon@rlh.mediascape.de] has joined #lisp 23:35:38 *rvirding* good night everyone, time for sleep 23:36:08 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:36:32 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:36:39 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:37:33 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:38:16 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:22 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:38:29 well, the list -> lisa variable name change fixes building recent SBCLs on the lappy as well. If anyone ever feels like tracking this down, it's using an early 1.0.21 (.2 and .5 are what i tried here) release to build a .15 or later release. 23:38:41 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:56 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:26 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.98.3] has joined #lisp 23:45:56 slyrus_: the darwin port is hilariously dodgy (: 23:46:07 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:41 dodgy is my favorite adjective lately 23:48:33 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:48:39 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #lisp 23:49:55 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A27D3A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 23:50:56 En-Cu-Kou1 [n=petr@ip-89-102-32-253.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 23:50:56 -!- En-Cu-Kou1 [n=petr@ip-89-102-32-253.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:51:15 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@0-010.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:57:36 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]