00:01:04 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:27 what are the # before the :export symbols for ? 00:01:54 kij: #:foo is syntax for a symbol with a name of (probably) "FOO" that is not interned in any package 00:02:16 kij: in some places, symbols are used only for their names, and not for anything else. in those cases i like to use uninterned symbols. 00:02:24 kij: some people like to use keywords, others like strings. 00:03:36 -!- kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit ["messing with the server"] 00:04:53 -!- mib_eh86rw [i=43b9044f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-999c237c607cda3a] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 00:05:03 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit ["Smile! "] 00:05:09 kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:05:26 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:06:25 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Client Quit] 00:07:53 Xach: so it could say :export :test, instead of :export #:test ? 00:08:22 kij: you could. or :export "TEST" 00:10:33 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 00:12:44 -!- petere [n=peter@209-6-234-57.c3-0.sbo-ubr3.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:13:09 hmm, i will remember to pad myself on the shoulder the day i fully understand why. 00:13:10 jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:56 kij: look up "string designator" in the clhs glossary 00:14:09 -!- gloaming [n=steve@c-76-113-7-71.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:14:37 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:08 Oh, so # is designator ? 00:18:11 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@3-018.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:18:46 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 00:18:51 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:45 kij: no. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm 00:21:48 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 00:28:01 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-0c-f6-20-8c-57.k102.webspeed.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:29:10 I can't seem to get the cl-opengl darcs tree from common-lisp.net: The requested URL /cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi was not found on this server. 00:29:19 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-0c-f6-20-8c-57.k102.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 00:29:21 sooo...is darcs down on c-l.net? 00:29:50 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-0c-f6-20-8c-57.k102.webspeed.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 00:31:16 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:16 retupmoca: rt@common-lisp.net is a new email address for problems like that 00:32:25 -!- malune [n=malune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:32:27 <_3b> looks like it, darcs get http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-opengl/darcs/cl-opengl/ should work though 00:32:34 *hefner* told the "AIG Winter" joke today, didn't go over well 00:33:05 hefner: ooo, which one? 00:34:22 hefner: you need to pick your audience pretty carefully for that kind of humor. 00:34:25 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-51-172.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:34:57 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:04 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@0-053.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:36:23 _3b: looks like its working, ty 00:37:14 ooh, new rt installation 00:37:18 what was on there before? 00:37:45 there being common-lisp.net 00:39:41 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 00:41:53 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:45:37 ths_ [n=ths@X65eb.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:51:03 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.46.21] has joined #lisp 00:51:43 next problem: cl-opengl fails compile on sbcl 1.0.19: The function :ACTUAL-TYPE is undefined. (in file gl/types.lisp) 00:52:00 timmyd [n=timmy@pool-96-255-147-249.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:15 which is in a define-foreign-type form 00:52:16 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 00:52:43 gigamonk`: what code do you recommend for parsing binary structured data, a la chapter 24 of PCL? binary-types, a successor of your code from that chapter, or something else? 00:54:38 hm, binary-types' page seems to claim that the PCL code supersedes it. 00:58:39 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 00:59:18 -!- ths [n=ths@X7cbb.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:29 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:59:59 <_3b> retupmoca: try using cffi from darcs? (or most recent release if already using current darcs version) 01:01:10 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.128.83] has joined #lisp 01:01:31 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 01:01:42 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@208.49.99.251] has quit [] 01:02:20 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone!!!!"] 01:03:39 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-01aa2e3979be5fdb] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:06:37 _3b: heh...I'm using cffi 0.9.1 - oops 01:07:41 <_3b> retupmoca: yeah, that is probably too old, anything 0.10 or newer should work i think 01:09:13 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@3-018.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:10:58 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:14:06 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:14:36 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 01:20:29 ppqq [n=root@c-24-130-143-118.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:09 hmm, hefner has a blog, with lisp content, which is not on planet lisp. 01:22:36 _3b: tyvm, works 01:23:54 kpreid: it's on planet lisp. although given the distinguished audience, I can't just slap the lisp tag on any old rubbish post. 01:24:16 oh, so it is. 01:25:25 anyway, I've read your blog now. :) 01:26:22 I wonder whether CL is unique in being a language with a standard (or even a specification) that is used as everyday reference material. 01:29:01 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 01:31:29 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:32:06 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 01:33:10 kpreid: do language whose "standard" is really documentation for the canonical implementation count? 01:35:39 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:40 BrianRice: I use the code from the book. 01:35:49 I don't think I've even done much with my personal copy of it. 01:36:27 *gigamonk`* used to use the Java Language Spec when he hacked Java 01:36:58 kpreid: though that probably has more to do with the amount of the "standard library" that is included in the language spec. 01:37:48 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-a85a94c4a03df2c4] has joined #lisp 01:41:16 hefner: no 01:41:24 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:41:54 hefner: the class of documents I'm thinking of is those which are written as specifications 01:42:03 i.e. the use of language that obligates 01:47:45 bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:30 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:50:09 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:50:46 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:28 benny [n=benny@i577A0DDB.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 01:54:06 LiamH [n=nobody@138.88.126.7] has joined #lisp 01:56:59 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:59:22 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 02:00:02 Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has joined #lisp 02:02:42 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 02:03:29 Why use VALUES instead of LIST when returning several values? I mean, what is the usual practice? Use VALUES when one doesn't always care about all the values returned, and LIST if they are all of interest all the time? 02:04:21 use LIST when you're returning a list 02:04:32 use values when you're returning multiple different things 02:05:23 efficiency is another reason 02:06:35 *hefner* hopes to one day get his head around SBCL's multiple values optimizations 02:07:30 adeht: can you elaborate? Do implementation bother to return only the first value (say) when the caller only reads one? 02:09:08 <_3b> enigmus: even when returning multiple values, it avoids having to allocate space for the list 02:09:58 enigmus: no, but they can be passed, say, in registers 02:10:49 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:11:13 sudoer [n=jtoy@58.62.5.78] has joined #lisp 02:14:08 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 02:18:04 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:19:07 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.46.21] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:23:02 good morning 02:24:58 enigmus: I don't think they do that in general (unless it is for a builtin function like FLOOR). 02:25:03 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-17-202-253.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:33 enigmus: Because in general the function is compiled separately without taking into acount caller context. 02:26:20 enigmus: The main advantage is that callers who only need one value do not have to take apart a list to get it, so the fact that a second value is returned is transparent to such callers. 02:28:01 enigmus: There are several cases (like GETHASH for instance), where almost no callers need the second return value (but some do). It would be silly to make the majority of callers aware of a second return value by having to take apart a list. 02:28:41 BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-71-231-196-132.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:56 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:36:53 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 02:39:39 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-81-166.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:44:40 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-17-202-253.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:44:46 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:07 -!- BrianRice-mb_ is now known as BrianRice-mb 02:46:15 -!- ttessier [n=ttessier@d121-146-132.home3.cgocable.net] has quit [] 02:47:29 Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 02:48:59 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 02:49:09 -!- tarrant1 [n=trollins@ss-dsl1.dsl.xmission.com] has left #lisp 02:54:44 postamar [n=postamar@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:56:19 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-63-85.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:56:49 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-126-219.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:56:52 -!- beach`` is now known as beach 02:57:10 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:57:33 -!- mrd-_ [n=mrd@c-24-61-70-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["doh"] 02:58:42 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:00:47 who's the maintainer of mod_lisp2? 03:05:14 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:05:30 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 03:06:05 I have a small patch to make it compile on my box (with apr 1.3.2) 03:06:36 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 03:07:29 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.128.83] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 03:08:32 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 03:09:12 If I have defined a struct as (defstruct (node (:type list)) value row column parent-row parent-column g-value h-value f-value), how do I create a node and add it to the tree? 03:09:52 I know that defstruct provides persistence to a node 03:11:22 Does cl have a macro/function like this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/68471 03:11:26 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.19] has joined #lisp 03:12:50 <_3b> clhs: butlast 03:12:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_butlas.htm 03:12:58 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:13:42 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-81-166.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:27 <_3b> or i guess nbutlast, since you want it to modify the list 03:14:34 _3b: Thanks a lot! I have been looking for this for a long.. 03:15:55 <_3b> guess it doesn't return the same thing though 03:16:31 <_3b> missed that since you didn't actually use the returned value in the example :) 03:17:24 <_3b> probably better to keep the list reversed and use pop if possible though 03:18:29 _3b: In that case, I have to reverse the list twice, right? 03:18:48 <_3b> depends on what you want to do with it 03:19:48 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:20:03 <_3b> if you only want to access it though SHIFT, just reverse it at the start (or build it in reversed order if convenient) 03:21:30 <_3b> if you need to access the remaining part of the list in order in addition to the element you removed, it would probably be better to implement something like whgat you have already 03:22:39 _3b: oh okay... Thanks! 03:22:41 <_deepfire> beach, hello 03:23:50 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:24:50 The pop in lisp and the pop in perl mean different things, and it is pretty confusing. 03:26:16 <_3b> assuming perl has a corresponding push, they probably mean the same thing if you ignore the implementation :) 03:28:55 <_3b> they just use opposite directions, since the underlying data structures grow more efficiently in opposite directions 03:29:06 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has left #lisp 03:29:14 JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:03 _3b: yeah, and I was looking for a cl macro like the pop in perl, but cl does not have one, so I gotta make my own.. It is pretty amazing. 03:32:53 <_3b> well, if you want it to match the perl at the implementation level, you should be using an array instead of a list anyway :) 03:33:44 <_3b> but yeah, if you need to remove and return the last element of a list, i think you need to implement that yourself 03:34:26 _3b: got it. thanks a lot for your help! :) 03:36:20 -!- postamar [n=postamar@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 03:37:43 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:39:30 postamar [n=postamar@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:41:23 splittist [n=splittis@125.214.249.195] has joined #lisp 03:41:26 morning 03:41:33 hello splittist 03:41:44 Up early or in a different time zone? 03:42:01 beach: different TZ. I'm in HK for a couple of weeks. 03:42:31 Nice! (I guess). 03:43:18 hmm, why do I have the nick beach`? I don't seem to be able to change it either. 03:43:54 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.19] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:44:15 Ah, maybe it's just ERC that *thinks* that I have the nick beach`. 03:44:21 it appears like beach from here :) 03:44:42 phadthai: yeah, that looks like the explanation. 03:45:49 22:56 -!- beach`` is now known as beach 03:46:02 phadthai: thanks! 03:46:09 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.19] has joined #lisp 03:46:57 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:47:42 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:42 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 03:50:34 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@138.88.126.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:56:43 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:58:40 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["leaving"] 03:59:13 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 03:59:17 mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 04:00:26 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:01:42 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:14 Are there any p2p filesharing clients written in CL? 04:05:57 (I haven't been able to find any) 04:06:53 <_deepfire> beach, you asked about working ELF the other day, have you find satisfaction? 04:06:57 <_deepfire> er, found 04:14:41 _deepfire: I found answers to my questions, yes. John Connors developed cl-elf when he thought he would need it, and then realized he didn't. It is incomplete (it reads and ELF file into CLOS objects). It has no documentation. He is not going to continue developing it. He will accept contributions. 04:14:58 _deepfire: Would you like to work on such a thing? 04:15:44 hey beach 04:17:28 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-63-85.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:17:48 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:18:11 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:18:22 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-63-85.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:19:53 hello slyrus_ 04:20:22 beach: I think there's an error in the mcclim manual 04:20:49 slyrus_: I am sure you are right. Which one is this? 04:21:29 In 3.5, the app pane needs :display-time t to get the pane to display properly 04:23:13 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 04:23:47 slyrus_: I haven't been able to build the manual since Athas put in automatic docstrings. Could you tell me some context so that I can fix it? 04:24:44 in the define-application-frame for superapp, the app pane is blank unless I add :display-time t 04:25:09 this is in section 3.5 "adding functionality" 04:26:01 slyrus_: since I can't build it, I don't know the sections. But I found the code for that. 04:26:38 slyrus_: I would have to verify whether it's an error in the documentation or in the implementation. 04:27:02 slyrus_: That code has been tested in the past, so I am not convinced which one it is. 04:27:34 ok. yeah, I thought it used to work too :) 04:27:58 I don't really understand what :display-time t actually does so I'm not much help here :) 04:28:19 egn pasted "x for :pan" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68473 04:28:24 slyrus_: is it the example where there is a :display-time nil in there already? 04:28:24 hi, how can I evaluate the value of x in this dotimes loop to set the :pan of that instance of column 04:28:40 (sorry, new at this lisppaste thing) 04:28:53 egn: "evaluate the value"? 04:29:31 beach: like, for each one, I want :pan to be x. ie. :pan 0, :pan 1, :pan 2 04:29:42 beach: no, I don't think so 04:30:08 egn: use a looping construct instead 04:30:09 <_3b> egn: either make it a macro, or pass a lambda to create an instance to make-instance-array ? 04:30:24 slyrus_: OK, I need to go to work. I'll look at it later. Thanks for letting me know. 04:30:34 thanks for the documentation! 04:32:15 S11001001: _3b: thanks 04:32:20 speaking in terms of clarity: (collect 'simple-vector (mapping ((n (scan-range :from 0 :below len))) (make-instance 'column :pan n))) 04:32:47 slyrus_: the default (:command-loop) should work for that example. Looks like the code is broken. 04:32:55 or (coerce (loop :for n :from 0 :below len :collect (make-instance 'column :pan n)) 'simple-vector) 04:33:20 the mcclim code or the superapp code? 04:33:27 McCLIM. 04:33:37 S11001001: excellent, thanks 04:33:57 Now I *really* need to leave. Talk to you later. 04:35:33 cmatei [n=cmatei@85.186.180.45] has joined #lisp 04:38:21 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host172.190-137-247.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:42:55 the_unmaker [n=Administ@cpe-76-166-187-100.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:49:32 so, I've seen some people prefer explicitly using : with loop keywords. Any particular reason? 04:50:05 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:50:09 using keywords makes me feel a bit more distant from the readability of loop, although explicitly showing that they're keywords might help, I guess.. 04:50:18 by keywords, I mean :keywords 04:51:48 <_3b> nicer coloring in editor and avoiding interning symbols are the reasons i can think of off hand 04:56:23 sykopomp: they are also helpful to make loops easier to read for readers not as familiar with the various keywords available as the author :) 04:58:34 to be quite honest the real reason I use them is I saw pjb using them and I'm an idiosyncrasy mime 04:58:59 http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/ 04:59:01 malune [n=malune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:59:08 morning 04:59:22 this guy claims that non procedural languages re invent the database badly in code 04:59:25 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:39 and clever use of a database and prcedurla language can really be efficient 05:00:02 as i watch p siebels on youtube talk of patterns I can't help but feel it has some merit 05:00:15 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44B75.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:24 <_3b> you can probably make that argument just as easily for any pair of programming styles :p 05:00:27 anyone in a philosophical mood? 05:02:11 the_unmaker: Depends, what's the topic? 05:03:03 a man who know little programming, me, deciding what to learn 05:03:32 I tried pcl and ansi common by graham and even lisp by winston n horn 05:03:38 and get mad when use words they dont define 05:03:59 I guess sicp but thats not for common lisp but scheme 05:04:09 can I learn to program from touretsky? 05:04:13 gentle intro? 05:05:19 the_unmaker: Although a good book (or better, several good books) are invaluable, the only way to improve as a programmer is to program. Pick something you want to do, stack the books next to the computer, and have at 'er. 05:05:26 I got my start with PCL, and just hacking around. Once I understood the basic syntax, went to the more complex stuff. 05:06:33 ok 05:07:11 the_unmaker: I learned to program, from pretty much scratch, with Gentle Intro. 05:07:21 but you won't really have anything until you do PCL 05:07:31 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:08:07 I get the syntax, they they throw me by going on about keywords and I get boggled, in the part where he shows you a simple db Im liek wtf is all this stuff 05:08:19 or maybe im supposed to jsut watch and not try to memorize 05:08:22 in ch2 05:08:25 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:660:3003:8:0:0:4:68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:08:39 so I vascillate to forth or haskell 05:08:39 the_unmaker: you don't know how to program with anything, correct? 05:08:45 but lisp syntax is nice 05:08:48 simple 05:08:52 bash abit 05:08:56 loops some conditionals 05:09:05 get gentle intro 05:09:06 read that 05:09:08 then pcl 05:09:10 ok 05:09:14 glhf 05:09:24 :) 05:10:36 kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:660:3003:8:0:0:4:68] has joined #lisp 05:12:22 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:13:09 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 05:15:43 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44F47.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:16:07 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-2-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 05:16:10 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:19:49 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:25 Soulman_ [n=knute@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:30:16 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:32:33 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:33:32 slyrus_: ex2b.lisp (with number parity) works for me. 05:33:48 slyrus_: is that the one you mean? 05:33:58 yeah 05:34:24 I think 05:34:27 slyrus_: OK, let's compare McCLIM versions. 05:35:31 oh wait, no, that's different 05:35:33 slyrus_: I seem to have updated last on 2008-07-09. 05:35:55 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:04 the one I was looking at is the code in Chapter 3. It doesn't have a :display-function 05:36:29 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:32 -!- Soulman [n=knute@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:37:25 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:37:27 slyrus_: the examples with no display-function all have an explicit :display-time 05:38:11 hrm... guess I was looking at an old pdf then 05:39:03 that's entirely possible. 05:39:17 Like I said, I haven't been able to build the doc for ages. 05:39:21 <_deepfire> spiaggia, apropos ELF, I've got my own library for parsing it, which I use and maintain, if you're interested 05:39:22 ah, yes. sorry for the false alarm! 05:39:35 _deepfire: A CL library? 05:39:40 <_deepfire> spiaggia, entirely 05:39:52 _deepfire: I am very interested in that, yes. URL? 05:40:03 slyrus_: what was the problem? 05:40:43 <_deepfire> spiaggia, the downside is that it has four dependencies, two of them being my other libraries 05:41:03 _deepfire: that might be acceptable. 05:41:49 spiaggia: I hadn't rebuilt the pdf in some time. it was outdated. but it's not clear to me why both :display-time nil and :display-time t would make the example work. 05:42:11 nil means never display, t means display only the first time. 05:42:28 for some applications, either one would work, for instance one that initially displays nothing. 05:43:12 <_deepfire> spiaggia, what arch do you plan to use it on? (I want to ensure smoothness for you, by adding proper definitions) 05:43:54 _deepfire: I am not going to use it immediately, but the thinking was to generate ELF executables and shared libraries as a result of building a CL system. 05:44:08 oh, arch, x86-64 05:45:17 spiaggia: fine, but I'm surprised that the default (that is not specifying a :display-time) would cause things to break 05:46:01 slyrus_: the default runs the display function at every command loop iteration, and it starts by erasing the entire pane. 05:46:32 slyrus_: which is not necessarily what you want, and certainly, if you choose to display explicitly in a command, what you displayed is going to be erased right after. 05:47:09 _deepfire, slyrus_: I need to go do my lecture now, but let's talk about all this later. 05:47:16 ok, ttyl 05:55:45 kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has joined #lisp 05:56:13 hello lispers 05:56:26 good morning 06:03:01 -!- lesho_ [n=uzivatel@lesho.intrak.tuke.sk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:03:33 -!- larstobi [n=larstobi@213.151.142.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:04:23 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-134-144.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:05:26 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:05:52 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:06:31 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 06:11:10 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:15:46 lesho [n=uzivatel@lesho.intrak.tuke.sk] has joined #lisp 06:19:21 -!- postamar [n=postamar@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 06:21:02 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-63-85.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:22:28 -!- JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:22:30 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:31:19 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-71-231-196-132.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:33:49 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 06:36:26 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-118-30.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 06:39:22 eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:39:26 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:46:54 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-52-79.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:54:57 Aszarsha [n=Miranda@dsl-67-204-19-122.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:30 mye [n=mye@dslb-088-070-026-220.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:33 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:12:00 lesho_ [n=uzivatel@lesho.intrak.tuke.sk] has joined #lisp 07:12:00 -!- lesho [n=uzivatel@lesho.intrak.tuke.sk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:13:11 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:16:45 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.128.83] has joined #lisp 07:19:23 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 07:20:00 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:27:41 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:27:55 emilbarton [n=eb@213.192.84-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:19 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:29:30 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@85.186.180.45] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:30:19 hello, I encounter difficulties in translating a perl recursive function into lisp because I lack dynamic scoping: the variables in the first call are modified by the second call when they should not. Can you give me a hint? 07:31:26 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:32:27 emilbarton, http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 07:32:37 emilbarton: Just declare a dynamic variable. 07:33:02 how do you do that? 07:33:17 emilbarton: defvar, defparameter 07:33:48 emilbarton, (let ((foo "bar")) (let ((foo "baz")) foo)) -> "baz" 07:34:32 emilbarton: Are you modifying compound objects? 07:35:14 yes well, everything is fuzzy because I don't work directly in lisp but in maxima 07:35:47 i'll try to paste my perl function 07:36:21 I don't think many people know maxima here; you may be better off asking at their mailing list. 07:37:35 emilbarton pasted "how to translate this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68481 07:37:41 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #lisp 07:38:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/68481 07:38:35 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 07:38:48 emilbarton: Anyway - if you declare a variable using defvar or defparameter and then use it in a let form, it will have dynamic binding. 07:38:50 i'm sorry but #maxima never answers! if you help me in lisp it will help 07:38:52 trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:39:31 -!- lesho_ [n=uzivatel@lesho.intrak.tuke.sk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:39:31 kreuter: how does one submit an implementation to the shootout again? 07:39:39 lesho [n=uzivatel@lesho.intrak.tuke.sk] has joined #lisp 07:39:53 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:39:54 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:39:56 pkhuong: you need to log in 07:41:05 got tired of mandelbrot. 66% as much time for 1 proc, should scale linearly (rebuilding sbcl with threads on the main computing machine, so I've only tested with 2 procs) 07:41:38 hello. 07:42:42 pkhuong: Well, there're a bunch of factors that could cause that - I'm no expert, but if your app uses a lot of threads, there's potential that leaving threads from the same process on one proc is more efficient. 07:42:55 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 07:43:16 aja: erh, huh? 07:44:07 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:44:13 pkhuong: cool 07:44:25 pkhuong: I could be missing some context from your content, but to me, seeing processor affinity for an app is not an immediate cause for diagnosing a problem. 07:44:36 aja: what problem? 07:44:43 pkhuong: s/content/comment 07:44:44 aja: where do you read that from? 07:45:24 pkhuong: pkhuong> got tired of mandelbrot. 66% as much time for 1 proc, should scale linearly .... <-- Did I interpret that incorrectly? 07:45:49 -!- l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:46:34 adeht: I think it was you who was affected by the cdr ml lossage, right? 07:47:23 -!- the_unmaker [n=Administ@cpe-76-166-187-100.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:47:36 kiuma could you take a look at my pb? 07:48:26 10s/5s/2.5s/1.5s (15s for the current implementation) 07:48:54 the first 4 numbers are for 1, 2, 4 and 8 procs. (atomic-incf ftw) 07:48:57 emilbarton: Your input is not Lisp, the desired output isn't either. So it's off topic, basically. 07:49:30 no the desired ouput is lisp as I said, maxima can handle an init-lisp sheet 07:49:35 (1.25s, not 1.5s for 8 procs, so yeah, looks pretty linear to me) 07:50:01 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-52-79.netcologne.de] has quit [] 07:50:03 emilbarton: are you looking for #maxima? 07:50:32 pkhuong: granted, you communicate very densely at times with lots of implicit context. :) 07:50:58 trebor_win: no 07:51:28 emilbarton, sure I was out for a coffe 07:51:33 michaelw: I think it's more often mumbling than communicating. 07:51:41 ah, sorry, i just saw "maxima" in your post, so i thought you were talking about the CAS maxima. 07:51:54 *tcr* thinks pkhuong needs a beard. 07:52:07 trebor_win: it's ok 07:52:31 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-51-172.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 07:52:44 michaelw: yeah, well, it was in the context of submitting something to the shootout ;) 07:53:32 pkhuong: well, I was also referring to your blog posts there 07:53:57 'morning 07:54:30 good morning H4ns 07:54:31 pkhuong: Ah. That helps. Please not that you didn't prepend a recipient to your post, so I assumed it was a general comment for all of us. Apologies for the confusion. 07:55:17 emilbarton, which is the modified var ? 07:55:36 might have something to do with not being a native speaker, but I have to reread those more than anything else I can remember off the top off my head 07:55:49 they're all modified at this stage 07:56:27 michaelw: ah, not quite the goal, there. Most of the posts are written early in the morning after a longish hackathon. 07:57:02 (with-sunshine (new-morning)) 07:57:02 kiuma when the func is called to load @cs the other vars are modified in my maxima-lisp version 07:59:17 kiuma annotated #68481 with "isn't my $t?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68481#1 07:59:39 the only non conformity I've noticed 08:00:23 funebre [n=mfunebre@c-71-227-176-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:21 kiuma : true but perl doesn't bother for this ; I suppose it would be too demanding for you to do a translation? 08:01:39 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has joined #lisp 08:02:21 What do you need the translation for? 08:02:36 emilbarton: Generally speaking, trying to translate ideosyncracy-for-ideosyncracy from one language to another is a bad idea. Why not just figure out what you need to do, and write a lisp function, using lisp idiom, that does that. 08:03:03 aja: It sounds like home work. 08:03:11 tcr, i'm integrating this function into my maxima init sheet 08:03:41 aja: i'm sorry about that 08:04:21 the goal of this func is to output "3,2+1,1+1+1" when you enter "3" 08:04:41 emilbarton: Well, it's just that you're asking people to undertake a task that looks simultaneously boring and futile. It's a pretty hard sell. I mean, I used to do boring and futile coding a lot in industry, but I charged a lot. :-) 08:05:13 emilbarton: That's rather particular. What is that string supposed to mean? What's the point of the interpunctation? (So you can run a regexp at it?) 08:05:20 sorry, I'm not wanting to annoy anyone 08:05:30 mikesch [n=axel@tmo-096-11.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:59 emilbarton: Well, recursion definitely seems to be the way to go. But there's no way that's anything but homework. And it would be wrong for us to do it for you. 08:06:23 aja: at least I tried 08:06:25 <_deepfire> gah, do shared objects have different interpretation for the shdr file offset field from executables? 08:07:10 emilbarton: Why don't you have a stab at writing it from scratch, and feel free task _specific_ questions in here. 08:07:22 *trebor_win* still has the feeling emilbarton is talking about maxima-cas written in lisp (macsyma) 08:07:44 tcr: the ouput is a list of strings (might be a list of numbers) 08:08:07 trebor_win: what you mean by CAS? 08:08:16 computer-algebra-system 08:08:32 -!- Aszarsha [n=Miranda@dsl-67-204-19-122.acanac.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:58 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:10:13 anyway, I'll do what aja says but as this translation was not too heavy and I know almost nothing in lisp, it would have helped me a lot as a starting point to see a version made by someone experimented 08:10:14 trebor_win: yes, he most certainly is 08:10:27 but hey, I think we should be happy that there's an application written in Common Lisp popular enough that its users come here to bother us about it 08:10:55 <_deepfire> aha! I knew it... x86-64 binutils on my debian system silently shit its pants on x86 shared objects 08:11:01 that was the reason why i told him about #maxima 08:11:41 trebor_win: well, he knows about that, as evidenced by: i'm sorry but #maxima never answers! if you help me in lisp it will help 08:12:06 and i further could tell him about the mailing-list. (i am using maxima, too. i've written a german introduction text) 08:12:19 unfortunately in my Common LISPcraft by Wilensky, recursive function never show dynamic scoping 08:12:43 lichtblau: ah, i did not read this. 08:13:01 trebor_win: go for it and tell me more! 08:13:40 emilbarton: http://maxima.sourceforge.net/maximalist.html 08:13:54 Aszarsha [n=Miranda@dsl-67-204-19-122.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:07 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:14:15 emilbarton: I don't think you use the term dynamic scoping correctly. 08:15:22 well: what I see in perl is that calling recursively a function creates new variables for the call except when they are declared global, that's what I mean 08:16:24 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 08:17:19 trebor_win: thanks for the tip, i'll try the mailing list 08:18:21 emilbarton: if you need a very quick introduction to lisp -> google for "successful lisp - how to understand and use common lisp" by d.b. lambkins, or "practical common lisp" by p. seibel. 08:19:51 emilbarton: furthermore you can use usenet (symbolic math i suppose) 08:23:15 ehu` [i=3ed68be8@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9a4b302efe5263c7] has joined #lisp 08:23:29 trebor_win: I'll pick in the "successful lisp" first, thanks 08:27:01 -!- mulligan [n=user@78.52.50.24] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:31:14 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 08:32:03 mikesch_ [n=axel@tmo-127-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:06 emilbarton: if you want to dive completely into maxima & lisp & computational math -> paradigms of artificial intelligence programming by p. norvig (google). it has some explicit chapters about maxima (macsyma) lisp-internals. (it is my favorite book) 08:32:40 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-51-172.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:33:37 trebor_win: maybe one day.. 08:35:46 trebor_win: I seriously just ordered PAIP because of you. I've been meaning to for ages (on my amazon wishlist) but it treats maxima internals too? 08:36:12 yes. 08:36:45 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:38:12 http://www.norvig.com/paip.html chap. 8, 15 08:38:39 Sweet. That's really exciting. I'm sure I'll enjoy it. 08:39:01 maybe internals is the wrong word, better: basic-techniques 08:40:31 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:01 Anything that gets me started on understanding maxima would be a blessing. 08:44:33 mikesch__ [n=axel@static-87-79-66-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:45:05 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:45:10 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:45:31 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:660:3003:8:0:0:4:68] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:45:31 -!- mikesch [n=axel@tmo-096-11.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:45:31 -!- lesho [n=uzivatel@lesho.intrak.tuke.sk] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:45:31 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:45:31 -!- tiesje 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timed out)] 09:35:57 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-035-178.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:35:57 maybe sb-impl::*default-external-format* ? 09:36:29 setting that does not change the external-format of *standard-output*, i think. 09:37:03 isn't it determined by the locale? 09:37:56 lichtblau: not sure - i've set LANG in the environment, yet it did not seem to help. what i really need is a *standard-output* that does not print anything that is non-ascii. 09:38:40 lichtblau: (as in "prints a replacement character". bailing out of a trace because a string can't be encoded as us-ascii is not useful. 09:38:40 LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 sbcl 09:39:00 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-103-241.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:39:17 matley [n=matley@83.225.119.34] has joined #lisp 09:39:25 trying that, thanks! 09:39:36 jesus cmucl is an amazing compiler 09:40:17 *malune* thanks the lisp gods 09:41:22 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:49 what do people use to go from doc-strings -> html-page(s) these days? 09:44:02 lnostdal: basically, everyone has their own solution, I think 09:44:09 larstobi_ [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has joined #lisp 09:44:29 hehe, yeah .. it's pretty simple to throw together i guess 09:45:08 oh, don't know. I think it's more about different goals. 09:45:59 For example, I wrote atdoc because I wanted Javadoc-style markup. I love it, but many people don't like it. 09:47:59 sbcl ignores any LC_CTYPE specification that it cannot parse and uses :ascii as default external format in that case. 09:49:01 lnostdal: If it's a small library, one that is not likely to change invasively, I'd write extensive API documentation using texinfo. (Cf. http://common-lisp.net/project/parse-declarations/manual/html_node/index.html) 09:49:49 lnostdal: http://weitz.de/documentation-template/ may help 09:49:49 -!- larstobi_ [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has quit ["leaving"] 09:50:05 larstobi_ [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has joined #lisp 09:50:07 wow .. there are quite a few out there indeed 09:51:41 -!- larstobi [n=larstobi@c487047C1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:52:16 H4ns: (setf *standard-output* (sb-sys:make-fd-stream 1 :output t :buffering :line :external-format :ascii)) should work while running 09:52:43 stassats`: ah, thanks. 09:53:53 hm, has gmane -> sbcl-devel been disabled or is it just broken at the moment? 09:54:33 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-134-144.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:55:26 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 09:57:29 azuk`: are those the only two choices? it looks ok to me. 10:00:28 the two mails I sent (yesterday and earlier today) through gmane don't show up in the archives, but maybe it works with a delay or someone needs to approve them or something these days 10:01:43 azuk`: I see them. 10:02:04 I got them via email too. 10:02:05 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-a85a94c4a03df2c4] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:02:34 ok, no problem then 10:06:54 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:10:00 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-216.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:10:12 -!- bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:10:59 bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has joined #lisp 10:11:00 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 10:11:12 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-30-35.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:11:13 lnostdal: there's also http://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/git/texinfo-docstrings/ 10:11:26 Is there any better way to check if a package is readable?? http://paste.lisp.org/display/68484 10:12:12 tomoyuki28jp: do you mean "system"? 10:12:25 (find-package :asdf) ? 10:12:42 -!- funebre [n=mfunebre@c-71-227-176-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:12:44 tomoyuki28jp: yes, there is a better way, but you'd need to look into the asdf source i guess 10:13:21 I am not sure what tomoyuki28jp is asking for, perhaps (asdf:find-system :foo)? 10:14:04 michaelw: H4ns: michaelw: find-package looks very nice. Thanks a lot! 10:14:44 are you sure you understand the differences between packages and systems? 10:14:57 tcr: probably not... 10:15:18 tomoyuki28jp: http://weitz.de/packages.html <- explains it 10:15:18 tcr: Which doc should I read? 10:15:20 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@58.62.5.78] has quit [] 10:15:24 michaelw: thanks! 10:16:43 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 10:17:49 athos [n=philipp@p54B84669.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:11 -!- ddsmith [n=ddsmith@12.6.239.179] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:18:43 I have also created a function to check if a file is readable. Could this be better too? http://paste.lisp.org/display/68485 10:19:26 -!- larstobi_ [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has quit ["leaving"] 10:19:38 larstobi [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has joined #lisp 10:20:00 ddsmith [n=ddsmith@12.6.239.179] has joined #lisp 10:21:02 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-236.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:40 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-236.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:46 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-119-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:50 splittist_ [n=splittis@118.143.4.5] has joined #lisp 10:30:52 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-30-35.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:32:41 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:35:01 -!- splittist [n=splittis@125.214.249.195] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:36:38 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 10:40:36 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-36-127.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:41:14 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:15 tomoukiiiii 10:41:20 *Xach* had feedback 10:45:35 -!- ths [n=ths@X65eb.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:45:45 whats the easiest way to create ascii characters from an int in cl? 10:45:48 michaelw: thanks for the reminder about that link. it has good information. 10:46:00 malune: in lisp, characters are characters. 10:46:20 clhs code-char 10:46:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_code_c.htm 10:46:27 Xach: yeah, i'm trying to convert an int to a lisp char 10:46:48 sweet. thanks stassats 10:46:48 malune: in most implementations, code-char for some integer will return the lisp character corresponding to that number as a unicode code point. 10:47:00 Xach: thanks 10:47:49 *Xach* sets up http://l1sp.org/meta/packages 10:47:58 oops! 10:48:17 *Xach* speeled it wrong initially 10:48:35 trying to get freetype working with opengl, does anyone know if kenny has a repo somewhere, so that i can steal his freetype binding? :) 10:48:50 cant seem to googlify 10:49:12 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:37 malune: some people have had success using zpb-ttf with opengl. i don't know exactly how, though. 10:50:01 *malune* checks it out 10:52:01 Xach: ahh you wrote this library? 10:52:11 jgracin [n=jgracin@89-172-54-225.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:53:11 malune: yeah. 10:53:21 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:34 Xach: i'm trying to get to the bitmap buffer in the FT_glyph structure 10:53:43 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 10:54:48 Xach: i've written a simple binding for this purpose but making use of a proper library(like yours) would be nice indeed 10:55:52 Xach: though it doesn't seem accessible from your lib, unless i'm blind 10:56:19 oh, someone did that via vecto, but it's not quite straightforward 10:56:51 i think cl-sdl does that or somethin 10:57:05 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:02 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-103-241.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:58:23 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:00:00 Xach: Aaah, yeah it seems cl-sdl-ttf renders a glyph to an sdl surface, the pixel buffer should be accessible this way. thanks for your help!! 11:01:34 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:04:27 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 11:06:14 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 11:07:10 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-119-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 11:07:44 -!- ddsmith [n=ddsmith@12.6.239.179] has quit ["Bye."] 11:07:49 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:07:54 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 11:07:54 -!- dnm [n=dnm@cpe-67-246-46-208.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:09:29 l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:09:31 ths [n=ths@p549AF769.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:52 hi guys 11:13:00 hey. 11:13:14 yesterday i was mucking about with a library for loading in the netflix prize data 11:13:51 it stores the recommendations in bitfield structures in array of unsigned byte 64 11:14:16 but at the moment reading and writing bitfields is quite slow on sbcl 11:14:34 what do you mean by bitfields? 11:14:48 let me go to lisp paste 11:14:51 just a tick 11:15:39 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:16:07 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:17:20 c|mell pasted "Netflix bitfield interface" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68487 11:18:08 that still doesn't tell me what you mean by bitfields, since defbitstruct is not CL :-) 11:18:17 c|mell annotated #68487 with "The bit-twiddling bit that is slow" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68487#1 11:18:41 jsnell yes defbitstruct i made yesterday 11:18:44 just a tick 11:18:49 <_3b> are you making your own bit arrays? 11:18:55 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:19:27 well what it does is take an array of unsigned bytes 11:19:47 and allow you to use something i called defbitstruct, which is a bit like defstruct 11:19:47 <_3b> ah, nevermind, i guess packed structs of <8 bit ints? 11:20:01 more than 8-bits 11:20:13 i use 64-bit widths at the moment 11:20:23 <_3b> i mean per element in the struct 11:20:29 but you could have any number of bits in the struct 11:20:57 <_3b> right, i guess some of those are larger 11:21:17 so some fields for me are up to 27bits 11:21:36 but in my test cases i checked it works for 1000+ bits 11:22:31 i was hoping jsnell might be able to advise me how best to get out say 27bits starting at bit 10003 of array (unsigned-byte 64) 11:22:53 or if it would be better to use unsigned byte 32 11:22:58 I would be able to advise you if you were to actually answer my questions :-( 11:23:13 but as of now you're complaining about a feature sbcl doesn't provide as being really slow 11:23:29 no i am doing it wroung 11:23:50 bit-twiddling can be really fast in sbcl (it definitely was never a problem for me when doing netflix stuff) 11:24:01 it takes about 0.3s to do 1M fetches 11:24:10 <_3b> do you have limited ram? 11:24:15 i have 2GB 11:24:16 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 11:24:31 <_3b> ah, so yes in this case :/ 11:24:58 http://paste.lisp.org/display/68487#1 is how i do it now 11:25:08 <_3b> well, one thing from the code you pasted, you might want to ask sbcl to optimize it :) 11:25:13 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB99CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:25:26 that code does not show "defbitstruct" 11:25:38 okay if you really want 11:26:30 <_3b> and supporting 1000bit ints when you are only interested in fast fixnums seems a bit counterproductive 11:26:43 c|mell annotated #68487 with "defbitstruct" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68487#2 11:27:19 _3b, yes i was wondering if limiting val to fixnum in http://paste.lisp.org/display/68487#1 would make it faster 11:27:46 i guess i should declare limits on all the things passed to ldb 11:28:03 at the moment it is on (optimize speed) 11:28:16 the thing that will really kill you is using ldb with non-constant ranges 11:28:17 i tried safety 0 but it made no difference 11:28:20 yes 11:28:39 that's why i unrolled it a bit so that more ldbs are constant 11:29:57 perhaps i can align each structure to start at a 64-bit boundary 11:29:59 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit [] 11:30:12 I don't see any constant range ldbs there 11:30:35 (,setf (ldb (byte +array-bytemap-width+ bits-done) val) (elt bytemap pos)) 11:30:49 in fact the rhs ldb went away altogether 11:31:06 before i didn't have the end/start case as special at all 11:31:20 making it like this doubled the speed 11:31:27 bits-done isn't a constant, though 11:31:37 yes 11:31:58 anyway to make it constant? 11:32:30 do i start winning if i declare val to be fixnum? 11:32:50 it didn't make any difference when i tried 11:33:07 perhaps i have to declare it more often (after each ldb?) 11:34:57 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 11:35:11 if your rating structure is 64 bits, and the 16 bit movie id starts at say bit 32, the accessor should be 11:36:02 (defun rating-movie-id (ub64) (ldb (byte 16 32) ub64)) ; + type declarations 11:36:41 if i do align things like that then i lose a lot more memory 11:36:48 it will still fit 11:38:19 is there no way of making fast (ldb (byte x y) ..) by limiting the range of x and y? 11:38:35 Xach: fyi ended up using my own binding in the end, way too many dependencies. 11:38:50 malune: for which? 11:39:17 Xach: for using freetype with gl. I don't really want to have to include the sdl libs in my program. 11:39:22 ah 11:39:25 malune: i can sympathize. i like cl-vectors + vecto + zpb-ttf because it doesn't require any foreign libraries. 11:40:08 Xach: yeah, nice libs by the way. :) 11:40:11 c|mell: regardless of whether the ldb range is constant or not, it seems your accessors are really complex 11:40:29 Xach: its nice to see good documentation. 11:41:43 thanks. it can be pretty hard to write sometimes. 11:42:23 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB962B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:42:35 jsnell, yes they are; i was thinking that i could at the least propagate the length of the bitfield through at compile time, which would altogether eliminate the loop for most cases 11:43:24 jsnell, it is all inlined at the moment . . . i was wondering if there were any compiler magic i could use 11:43:40 how about doing ash and logand by myself? 11:44:19 a bit annoying because i would have to write both set and get methods instead of generating them as at present 11:45:36 the ldb will be transformed to ashes and logands 11:45:47 yep 11:45:59 so no way for me to get ahead? 11:46:50 how can i tell the compiler that val in `(unsigned-byte ,len) 11:47:01 it knows len from inlining at the moment 11:47:03 -!- lesho [n=uzivatel@lesho.intrak.tuke.sk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:47:10 lesho [n=uzivatel@lesho.intrak.tuke.sk] has joined #lisp 11:47:31 i guess i can switch to macros to shove len in even more explicitly 11:49:42 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:55:24 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 11:57:36 how about generating code for each of the 64 possible offsets and dynamically jumping to it? 12:00:01 minion: memo for tomoyuki28jp: You shouldn't use a generic function since your types don't match. What if you wanted to check if a web page is readable? String is already taken, so you couldn't pass a URI... Better define various functions: asdf-system-readable-p web-page-readable-p file-readable-p etc. or define classes to denote your resources. 12:00:01 Remembered. I'll tell tomoyuki28jp when he/she/it next speaks. 12:00:50 -!- emilbarton [n=eb@213.192.84-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:01:06 who needs email? :) 12:01:34 rsynnott: it's to teach him a lesson: don't disconnect from irc! It's ircipilant... 12:02:09 emilbarton [n=eb@110.192.84-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:28 minion: memo for tomoyuki28jp: You could have classes such as file-resource, asdf-system-resource, web-page resource with as attribute pathname, strings, symbols, etc. (readablep (make-instance 'file-resource :path #P"/usr/local/systems/foo.asd")) -> the file foo.asd is readable ; (readablep (make-instance 'asdf-system-resource :path #P"/usr/local/systems/foo.asd")) -> the asdf system (with all its components) are readable. 12:02:28 Remembered. I'll tell tomoyuki28jp when he/she/it next speaks. 12:02:37 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 12:02:48 rsynnott: and it serves as a mutex for other people who have feedback too. 12:05:07 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:08:20 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:10:54 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2BEB5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:19 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-19-99.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:13:48 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 12:14:12 hello 12:15:10 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:15:16 hello fe[nl]ix 12:16:11 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 12:17:56 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:18:09 -!- Aszarsha [n=Miranda@dsl-67-204-19-122.acanac.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:23:45 hi trebor_win 12:24:47 -!- lesho [n=uzivatel@lesho.intrak.tuke.sk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:24:52 lesho [n=uzivatel@lesho.intrak.tuke.sk] has joined #lisp 12:26:36 ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:28:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 12:29:06 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:30:13 Tordek [n=tordek@host131.190-137-193.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 12:30:42 morning fe[nl]ix 12:30:47 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:30:55 hello c|mell 12:32:35 I'm tired of turqoise(sp?) comments. Suggestions for a new color? 12:33:44 strings don't works as keys to hashtables, do they? 12:33:45 tic: try fuchsia 12:33:54 bougyman: they do 12:33:55 bougyman: they do 12:34:03 rsynnott: is there something special that must be done? 12:34:09 but you have to tell the hash table to use equal 12:34:18 (make-hash-table :test #'equal) or similar 12:34:21 right on. 12:34:24 or equalp, if you want a case-insensitive hash 12:34:25 thank you. 12:35:51 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 12:38:07 fe[nl]ix, a light fuchsia pink as displayed on wikipedia could wokr. 12:38:11 fe[nl]ix, thanks! 12:38:24 :test 'equal actually? 12:38:37 hm, same thing. 12:39:31 perhaps string= 12:39:34 a function designator is 'foo, whereas the function itself is #'? 12:40:08 sladegen, no. "test - a designator for one of the functions eq, eql, equal or equalp. default is eql". (make-hash-table :test 'equal) from the example in the Spec for m-h-t 12:42:43 -!- emilbarton [n=eb@110.192.84-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:42:43 emilbarton_ [n=eb@79.84.192.190] has joined #lisp 12:43:12 yea yea yaa ;) should just autodetect "equality" procedure for an object... 12:43:36 -!- awayekos [n=anekos@pl274.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:43:41 awayekos [n=anekos@pl274.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:44:38 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:45:28 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:44 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.5] has joined #lisp 12:46:28 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 12:48:09 sladegen: that's not really possible 12:50:01 if it's turing complete it's not impossible ;) i was trollojoking. 12:51:20 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:24 impossible as in the spec not defining the behaviour for string=. 12:51:52 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [] 12:52:43 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:53:19 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:24 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 12:53:39 Sometimes I want my comparison of person1 and person2 to be based on social-security number, and sometimes on the lexicographic comparison of their last names. 12:54:10 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [Client Quit] 12:55:59 (defmethod person-compare ((criteria (eql :social-security)) person1 person2) ...) 12:56:10 (defmethod person-compare ((criteria (eql :name-soundex)) person1 person2) ...) 12:56:16 spiaggia: sure but equal implies comparison down to planck scale and every quality of an object anyway... but that's philosphy. i was not aware spec specifing only named list of procedures. 12:57:47 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@h-188-232.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:58:11 sladegen, no, eq does that. 12:58:12 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:58:27 fusss: Indeed, but that's not the signature of comparison functions in CL (nor in most other langauges). 12:58:36 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc60.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:58:44 sladegen, http://l1sp.org/cl/make-hash-table 12:58:48 kent has a paper on EQUAL, let me fetch it 12:59:00 something is not right, my make-instance call returns nothing 12:59:03 fusss: A very good paper, yes. 12:59:04 fusss, it's very interesting. equal and copy, is it? 12:59:05 tic: really... eq in scheme compares pointer identity only... 12:59:10 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 12:59:58 sladegen, we might have different terminology here. http://l1sp.org/cl/equal for more info. 13:00:55 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:30 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:17 yvdriess: make-instance returns nothing? paste or it didn't happen ;-) 13:02:29 QLISP 85 > (make-instance 'qureg-sparse-matrix :size 2 :matrix (matrix:make-matrix 2 2)) 13:02:29 QLISP 86 > 13:02:49 the qlisp thing is just the current *package* 13:03:00 I'm using lispworks 13:03:05 I'm stumped 13:03:17 what's in * ? 13:03:26 I found the error because an arglist was too short 13:03:37 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:03:52 still, it should have barfed instead of choosing stoic silence 13:03:52 argh 13:04:03 tic: (inspect *) does show the object 13:04:06 I think it's the print 13:04:21 yup. did you surpress that somewhere? 13:04:42 possible, I'm working from existing code 13:04:44 it's probably a bad print-object model 13:04:47 model? method 13:05:16 error in protocol! 13:06:41 yeah I surpressed it somewhere and forgot 13:07:25 depth first search debugging, track a bug until it's impossible that lisp is at fault, then backtrack :) 13:07:44 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 13:08:38 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 13:09:24 reduce calls the given function with either zero or two arguments, correct? 13:09:39 or also one sometimes 13:10:14 yvdriess: let's check clhs... 13:10:15 my debugging is mostly metaphysical 13:10:16 because I'm trying to reduce with a generic function 13:10:23 matimago: I did 13:10:23 clhs yvdriess 13:10:24 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for yvdriess. 13:10:27 clhs reduce 13:10:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reduce.htm 13:10:30 Sorry. 13:10:43 There, they say: function---a designator for a function that might be called with either zero or two arguments. 13:10:48 So that's 0 or 2, not 1. 13:10:53 okay 13:11:00 but somehow it calls my function with one argument 13:11:11 even though the supplied sequence has 2 args 13:11:13 yvdriess: and indeed, a generic function cannot have 0 argument, or all optionals. 13:11:16 and an initial-value 13:11:25 okay that's a bummer 13:11:55 Four shalt thou not count. Five is right out. 13:12:01 (lambda (&optional a b) (if a (my-gf a b) :default)) 13:13:44 that makes both a and b optional. do you want that? 13:15:20 have to 13:15:53 if I want the expressive sweetness of reduce :) 13:17:43 ah! 13:18:00 mpucci [n=chatzill@82.85.85.34] has joined #lisp 13:18:30 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:10 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has joined #lisp 13:22:10 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has quit [Client Quit] 13:22:33 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has joined #lisp 13:22:44 hello! 13:23:47 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E474E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:38 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:25:26 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 13:25:27 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-195-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 13:25:41 hello mpucci 13:26:10 mpucci: New here? 13:26:19 yes, i am new here 13:26:22 and new to lisp too 13:26:29 -!- trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:26:40 trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 13:26:40 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 13:26:45 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:53 mpucci: What made you want to learn Lisp? 13:28:35 i would like to study a real programming language 13:28:40 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-206-125-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:40 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:28:44 i am tired to use java and other things 13:29:00 do u think is it enough? 13:30:53 I am not sure what "enough" would mean, but I think with that attitude there is a good chance you will find it very inspring to learn Lisp. 13:32:22 mpucci: it's not silver bullet, it's merely AST on steroids. 13:32:37 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:33:29 mpucci: don't. you will hate everything else out there. i wish i could vomit back the red-pill. 13:34:14 and remember, if a library is in C, you can use it in Lisp :-) #| CFFI should be plugged more often |# 13:34:15 that can be arranged 13:34:17 thank u for your suggestions folks 13:34:22 :-) 13:35:24 Is it possible to alter the reader to transfer (N..M) kind of expressions into suitable LOOP forms? 13:35:48 5 years ago i was a "successful" COM developer with things to do, places to go, checks to cash. Now .. i just write good software. 13:35:56 fusss: I've got spare crayolas, if you need one. 13:36:40 vy: you want SERIES :D 13:36:55 dlowe: Umm... I shouldn't be. :D 13:36:56 there is no job for lispers? 13:37:03 my advice: get over it. Lisp isn't the only good language. 13:37:13 mpucci: There are companies hiring tens of lispers. 13:37:27 lichtblau: lie! 13:37:47 moreover, there are lispers writing lisp code because they're just required to get things done 13:37:58 more exactly, ok, lisp is not a good language. lisp is THE best language. 13:38:17 lichtblau: what else is out there? 13:39:00 matimago: you got me interested, what companies hire tens of lispers? 13:39:09 as gavino's recommendation, i downloaded Mozart Oz and quickly felt the squeaky plasticy texture of Toy(TM) 13:39:12 H4ns: mine. 13:39:42 bougyman: oha! that's a pretty fresh offer - you should post to lispjobs.com 13:39:50 bougyman: what company would that be ? 13:40:01 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44B75.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:40:12 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:40:16 H4ns: ITA ;-) 13:40:29 disumu [n=disumu@p57A26B46.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:30 matimago: i work for them, and they don't hire tens of lispers 13:40:49 Aren't you more than 50 lispers at ITA? 13:40:50 matimago: they hire people who are good at solving riddles and have them program lisp. which is a tad different :) 13:40:57 shouldn't you two be working? 13:41:01 no 13:41:12 it would be terrible if airline middleware were replaced this decade 13:41:28 heh 13:41:39 there's a difference between "hire tens of lispers" and "employ tens of lispers" 13:41:40 just think of the jobs people would lose 13:41:47 Xof: beware, if haskell programmers finish their airline middleware before you, it'll be the end of lisp! 13:41:53 google hires lispers! look at jsnell 13:41:57 H4ns: will be doing so. 13:42:22 and not tens, i guess. 13:42:23 Yes, we really want to work with lisp, not just be hired because of lisp. 13:42:24 a single ten. 13:42:30 well, my friend's company are hiring lisper's http://www.grammatech.com/ 13:42:33 allegro hires lispers, i think 13:42:50 who then go on to program ruby, eh, antifuchs? 13:42:52 not very often. 13:42:58 i never heard of so many lisp-jobs. 13:43:15 trebor_win: it's time for a new boom. 13:43:26 fusss: Schemers. Also, *thwap* 13:43:45 trebor_win: lispers stay too quiet, hiding your little jewel in a dark parenthetic corner. 13:44:06 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 13:44:17 michaelw: the founder is a Cornell PhD specializing in code-generation. Old school Lisper. 13:44:20 I remember a jwz quote about people "polishing jewels in the dark", and I think it was regarding lisp machines. But I can't find it any more. 13:44:39 Goldsmiths, University of London hires lispers, fwiw 13:44:55 [ admittedly, it's more likely to if those lispers come with their own funding sources ] 13:45:24 continuing to work in lisp would be really great (after next year) 13:45:32 you know what else hires lispers? any job that requires data conversation, recovery and file-format hacking. 13:45:32 Xof: Any pointers? 13:45:50 fusss: Tim perhaps, but I chatted with Tom before and I don't think he is a lisper. 13:46:02 make a good grant proposal, get it funded, say you want to work at Goldsmiths, implement your idea in lisp 13:46:03 easy 13:46:14 michaelw: small world :-P 13:46:45 Xof: always helps to have your own funding!@ 13:47:06 srsly 13:47:27 Xof: that is what i did here ;) 13:47:37 my experience with the US system has been fruitful enough, but a bit depressing that way 13:47:57 yeah, but you haven't even been doing the most important part! (implementing your ideas in lisp) 13:47:59 slacker 13:48:09 wait, that's not quite true 13:48:19 I implemented most of my ideas in lisp 13:48:26 then ported them to matlab :( 13:48:54 not the most efficient route, granted 13:48:57 Xof: i started implementing them in lisp, which i can do so officially for one year. 13:49:32 somewhat ontopic, lispjobs had a listing here today, ti seems 13:49:37 surprised me 13:49:54 here geographically, not the uni 13:50:52 mpucci: don't worry, just become a better programmer first and everything will fall into place 13:51:11 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 13:51:36 sadly, i'm not a professional programmer anymore, or for that matter in IT 13:51:47 Professional IRC lurker? 13:51:48 why sadly? 13:52:17 Xach: if he's a lurker, he's not very good at it 13:52:27 it's like having a double life; you meet people in the industry, talk the talk, but .. you're doing something else 13:52:41 Xof: could be on another channel...this could be his "off hours" hangout. 13:52:50 there are other channels? 13:52:50 hahahaha 13:52:51 gosh 13:52:56 fluss: thanks 13:53:11 -!- jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:53:33 spiaggia: your anecdote about french slang terms reminded me of a book i got in the mail from sweden, which probably would have been a very different book if it had come from germany 13:53:39 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-158-10.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:56 Xach, what about the book? 13:57:12 a swedish book about french slang terms? 13:57:22 it was a pocket dictonary, or "ficklexikon" 13:57:35 Hehe. Yeah, that'd have quite a different meaning. 13:57:55 interestingly, the word Fick is in my Swedish-German dictionary. 13:58:31 what's a xikon? 13:58:37 Mr. Fick is famous. 13:58:42 sladegen, nothing. 13:58:45 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 13:58:54 and his fick-equations ;) 14:00:24 -!- luis [n=luis@bl5-41-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:00:37 perhaps ficklexikon is that window close button you can never hit... 14:00:45 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:17 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 14:01:35 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:32 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:30 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:03:40 -!- emilbarton_ [n=eb@79.84.192.190] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:03:42 *splittist_* chuckles 14:03:45 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF769.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:03:59 as i see Mr. Fick invented a contact-shell too (brown glass ;). His work led to the development of the Direct Fick method ... ;) 14:05:02 he was biophysicist 14:06:34 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 14:11:26 faheem [n=faheem@cpe-071-077-007-143.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:11:48 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 14:17:48 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:21:36 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 14:24:41 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-197-248.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 14:24:55 tic [n=tic@c83-249-197-248.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:28:15 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:44 hm. 14:30:19 fusss: (same-name p1 p2) (same-ssn p1 p2) (phonetically-same-name p1 p2) 14:30:31 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:31:14 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:34 -!- mikesch__ [n=axel@static-87-79-66-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:31:36 fusss: unless you need to loop over the criteria, but even then (some (function identity) (mapcar (lambda (cmp) (funcall cmp p1 p2)) '(same-name phonetically-same-name same-ssn))) 14:33:16 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A26B46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 14:33:49 -!- trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:35:01 trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 14:36:17 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-118-30.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:39:24 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B84669.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:39:28 Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has joined #lisp 14:41:18 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:41:31 Hi. What is the "while" loop equivalent in lisp? 14:41:57 (loop while x do y) 14:42:09 tks 14:42:10 (do () ((not x)) y) 14:42:18 (iterate (while x) y) 14:42:24 ... 14:43:46 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 14:45:07 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 14:46:17 about the nodes that I have first created using make-node, and then pushed into a list, will they be persistent throughout the execution of the program? In a sense can a different function access those nodes or do I have to pass them to another function? 14:47:11 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:49:24 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-188.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:49:28 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-155-193-182.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:06 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbafa5.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:50:15 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:31 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:52:39 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@89-172-54-225.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:53:48 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:54:10 salex: i wish i could make a library of good taste 14:55:16 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:55:28 drawing stuff with Lisp falls into michaelw's "artificially hard" category. if you wipe away the difficulty just doing *anything*, you're still left with the problem of drawing something worth viewing... 14:55:29 Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has joined #lisp 14:56:05 google has done a nice job of making the default appearance of their charts look pretty good 14:57:51 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.3] has joined #lisp 14:59:19 vy pasted "SEQ" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68498 14:59:42 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:51 Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has joined #lisp 15:00:11 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:00:11 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:49 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-17-202-253.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:01 Serva: while you don't remove objects from lists, they stay in the lists you put them in. 15:01:26 Serva: Of course, you must keep a reference to the list all along, to be able to find these objects in the list. 15:02:54 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:03:18 Xach: what's harder to do in lisp to draw, than in any other programming language? 15:03:31 -!- spiderbyte is now known as spiderbyte|mimie 15:03:42 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 15:03:46 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:52 -!- spiderbyte|mimie is now known as mimies 15:03:59 matimago: graphics 15:04:04 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:05:53 -!- hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279776314.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 15:06:37 vy: (collect (scan-range :below 10)), (collect (scan-range :from 1 :below 10)), etc. you get the idea :) (series, ftw) 15:07:14 matimago, I am creating individual nodes using make-node. The node has a parent field which will contain the reference of the parent node. Also, there's some number field in every node, which will contain a specific number for that node. The successor function generates the new nodes for the current node, and treat this node as a parent. Now I have to calculate the sum of all those number fields from the parent node upto the root node. 15:07:46 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 15:08:24 and store this value in the newly created successor nodes. 15:08:33 Xach: draw-point, draw-line, draw-polygon, etc. It's the same in all languages. On the other hand, in lisp we can write more abstractions to do nice graphics. 15:09:12 * easily. 15:09:15 there's no abstracting for taste. 15:09:21 :-) 15:12:04 matimago: once you have an environment set up, there is more equality of capability. but there are hurdles to getting set up that could be lowered or removed. 15:12:11 -!- beach``` is now known as beach 15:12:19 things like CFFI help a great deal, but there are more pieces to the puzzle. 15:12:39 Good evening. 15:12:42 -!- ehu` [i=3ed68be8@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9a4b302efe5263c7] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:12:56 -!- ppqq [n=root@c-24-130-143-118.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:09 hello beach 15:14:43 deafmacro [n=user@59.92.200.100] has joined #lisp 15:17:15 Sorry for the [somewhat] off-topic question: Can anybody give me a place to read about what Java and/or C# are able to do at runtim these days. Loading classes, I know. What about redefining existing classes with existing instances? What about redefining the type of a varible, etc? Any pointers are welcome. 15:18:12 beach: i'm not sure in general, but i have been following jrm's implementation of MIT Scheme in C# pretty interesting. he writes about the challenges of mapping the scheme semantics to what the .net environment provides. 15:18:25 "i have found", rather 15:18:58 he writes about it on his blog and the code is available also 15:19:11 Xach: OK, that's a goot starting point. Thanks! 15:19:51 http://eval.apply.googlepages.com/ has links 15:20:20 there used to be a vicious piece from a franz guy about investigating lisp-on-.NET knocking around 15:20:37 and there's an old IronPython one, but that's badly out of date 15:21:39 Xach: Very good. Thanks again! 15:21:45 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/2b11ecfdc4a15fb4 is not too vicious. 15:24:05 -!- trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:25:06 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has left #lisp 15:26:41 -!- pdewacht [n=pdewacht@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:26:55 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 15:27:51 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:39 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 15:33:00 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:04 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1C651.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:08 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E18C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:29 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:36:06 gz [n=gz@209-6-158-10.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:19 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 15:38:30 Xach: it's always the same thing. free implementation provide bare clx; I assume commercial implementations provide nicer graphical environments. Now if I wanted to draw something in C, I'd have the same hardship: write pure X code, or use some library, or commercial kit. I still fail to see how it's harder in Lisp. I agree that it could be easier. 15:38:51 Hey! Anybody here can crash an economy? We'd get billions to finance lisp developments! 15:38:54 matimago: the support infrastructure for getting to the point of doing useful drawing is better. 15:39:29 matimago: with lisp there is the potential for wonderful abstraction and reusable code. with other systems there exists in practice some very good abstractions and reusable code. i think it will be nice when lisp has more. 15:40:16 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc60.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 15:41:35 matimago: it will be nice when not every lisp hacker must be the pioneer in his area of interest :) 15:41:40 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46BB0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:26 Really, how did perl, python, ruby start up? How come they could gather anybody when they had strictly no libraries to start with? 15:43:05 mulligan [n=user@e177080090.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:43:18 perl - nothing else comparable at the time, ruby - started up over a decade, python - amazing marketing 15:43:46 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C837.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:47 python was around for quite a while, too 15:43:55 lisp - nothing else comparable at the time and now, lisp - started up over five decades, lisp - parentheses? Is that what you mean? 15:44:18 matimago: I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Are you arguing against progress in Lisp libraries? 15:44:27 python also bundles *everything* into its standard distribution (the "batteries included" approach). this took me forever to figure out, as someone who was used to the CPAN. 15:44:36 CFFI FTW! what lack of libraries? 15:44:40 Are you trying to say that other languages are bad, and Lisp should be as bad? 15:44:47 Xach: No, I'm sad and can't understand why there are so many programmers to write libraries for ruby or python, and so few for lisp. 15:44:56 matimago: Oh, that doesn't bother me too much. 15:45:12 same here, not a big deal. I've found libraries for everything I've wanted to do. 15:45:20 Personnally, no, but when working in a non-lisp group, it's hard... 15:45:23 matimago: I think there is something of a snowball effect in (perhaps really slow) progress 15:45:32 lisp had MACHINES built for it, not just libraries 15:45:38 :-) 15:45:55 i was really pleased to be able to mostly ignore XML, HTTP, and cryptography while working on my Amazon S3 library! 15:46:19 *Xach* must polish up and publish his flickr library too 15:46:22 Worse Is Better and such. rise of cheap commodity PCs. mass produced software. hobbyist/shareware/free code for free unices and bundled windozes, etc. 15:46:38 ugh. shareware. 15:46:49 At ELS08 somebody spoke about making a graphics library. I'd have to lookup my notes to find out who. 15:46:52 -!- mpucci is now known as caliostro 15:47:43 matimago: according to Wikipedia, Python was first released in 1991, and 1.0 was released in 1994. If we date the modern CL era from the start of SBCL (which I'm not sure you'd agree to), there is still some ways to go before achieving Python-level popularity. 15:47:54 matimago: the java graphics libraries are (i've heard) really good, but that's not because of enthusiastic hobbyists, but because professionals were paid to create something pretty good. 15:48:27 simple linear time doesn't account for everything. you need to factor in the fact that most programmers are a terribly faddish bunch 15:48:29 a friend of mine who was for a time the maintainer of ghostscript certainly raved about the quality of java2d 15:48:38 FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:00 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:06 chandler: that's the optimistic outloook, but I'd rather date it 1984, and while thinking it's really earlier, ~1970s. After all, libraries were ported to CL once defined no? 15:49:12 the fact that we want "opengl bindings", instead of lisp-programmable hardware shadders and GPUs is proof the Worse Is Better. Expectations have been lowered to C-compatibility. 15:49:42 matimago: the performance profile has changed in interesting ways...it's interesting to see "old" CL code and how it does odd tricks to be fast enough. 15:49:52 it can get pretty ugly 15:50:22 I don't think there is much in the way of code from the 1970s that will run unmodified on a modern CL, and even much of the 1984-era code probably does not either. 15:50:33 Well, I'd separate concerns about API and performance. For a graphic library, API is important. For performance, there's GPUs :-/ 15:51:23 chandler: I tried to run a couple of code bodies from 1960 and it was rather easy to make them run on CL. About 50 lines of glue. 15:51:39 matimago: big systems? 15:51:44 *Xach* still gets burned by some libraries that use low safety and assume fixnums 15:51:53 No, at the time, it was only paper-size programs. http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/wang.html 15:53:03 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:53:05 matimago: while that's an interesting exercise, I think programs written before the era of lexical scope by default are probably of mostly historical interest at this point 15:53:15 Indeed. 15:54:08 Many of the libraries that people are looking for today could not have been written in the 1980s either, simply because they deal with technologies that were not yet invented then. 15:54:35 Sure. Nobody's looking for a RETE library in ruby... 15:54:52 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-232.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:54:56 Or users' expectations have evolved in recent decades, e.g. expecting antialiased drawing from a graphics library, which was uncommon in the '80s. 15:56:20 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E474E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:56:32 chandler: pjb has code from 1960 that runs on CL :-) 15:56:46 fusss: Did you not read the discussion we were having? 15:56:54 matimago: personally I don't care about the popularity of Lisp, but I can see some basic steps towards making it more popular: a well-designed and organized "portal" thingy (cliki isn't good enough), a better library-installation system (clbuild has potential), more emphasis on the great libraries available (e.g. xml-related, vecto, ediware, etc.), writing higher-level libraries rather than the usual half-arsed trivial- ones.. 15:57:11 oh, it was in agreement, duh! 15:58:02 adeht: writing reusable libraries can be so time-consuming, i can understand why it's not happening a lot. 15:58:06 Or rename the s/trivial-// ones. They're not so trivial. It's a lot of work to make something as simple as possible, without outdoing it. 15:58:18 i think some of the trivial ones are aptly named. 15:58:19 Xach: yep, everything in that list is time-consuming. 15:58:58 adeht: if the library situation were different than it is, people would find something else to dislike. 15:59:08 s/dislike/complain about/ 15:59:15 yeah, but at least the people who don't complain would benefit too :) 15:59:18 kreuter: yes, but not everyone. 15:59:46 minion: chant! 15:59:46 MORE CODE 15:59:54 Xach, if java 2d was great, i would be able to run Processing without javaw.exe taking down expee 16:00:00 i think any person determined not to use lisp can succeed 16:00:06 fusss: i used to have a computer like that, too. 16:00:21 in any case, we who already use Lisp don't care enough about popularity to put time and effort into these areas. I know I don't. I just use it at home, at work, etc. to get my job done. 16:00:34 ISTM that people who actually want to get things done manage to do so. 16:00:43 kreuter: what does ISTM mean there? 16:00:52 it seems to me? 16:01:04 minion: what does ISTM stand for? 16:01:04 Insurance Sparable Tinkerer Moocher 16:01:05 oh, ok. i was trying to fit it into the "i seem to remember" mold. 16:01:11 how about places where you've standardized on Java or some such? No CL there. (of course, no nothing else there either, but..) 16:01:28 trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 16:01:40 Xach: I Seem To Maintain, then. 16:02:12 tic: lisp is still useful in that kind of places for generating the java code 16:02:59 V-ille, in a way, but you get rather handicapped when you can't write scripts in Lisp but must use Java. I.e. use it for non-code-generation tasks. 16:03:17 kreuter: i notice it mostly when i want to document how to actually use my stuff, and i find it really hard to explain it to someone who doesn't already have a working environment with a good way to fetch or manage dependent bits of software, how to use it. 16:03:27 perhaps ABCL will become more popular for such use cases! 16:03:56 maybe if I replace () w/ <> in the code. 16:04:00 Xach: well that's why we need xach-install. 16:04:06 (they like XML at my place) 16:04:23 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:04:32 kreuter: i would welcome some-next-install, anyway, if it's an improvement on the current situation. 16:04:41 heh, maybe I should try decompiling stuff that abcl compiles 16:04:44 *Xach* hopes not to run out of time to screw around with his ideas 16:04:57 Xach, how about running out of energy? :/ 16:04:59 that way one could claim to have written java in the first place :) 16:05:07 Xach: do you follow the cclan list? 16:05:08 V-ille, is that code at all readable? 16:05:14 kreuter: sure do! 16:05:15 tic: I don't think so 16:05:27 allot of ABCL code decompiles somewhat 16:05:34 V-ille, no difference from regular Java, then. 16:05:35 kreuter: i loved your bit about nobody knowhing which features of asdf are accidental or intentional 16:05:42 even though your use of "ISTM" confused me 16:05:48 i had to speciallize my decompiler to handler some ABCL cases 16:05:51 At least, not readable enough to not look like something written following common sense, guidelines etc. 16:06:24 i'll paiste a couple examples of decompiled ABCL 16:06:31 how active is cclan? 16:06:49 kreuter: i sympathize somewhat with gary's idea of piggybacking on asdf, because it's hard to bootstrap things. 16:06:49 it's pining for the fjords 16:06:58 *Xach* hopes to avoid that problem 16:07:12 um 16:07:29 there's piggybacking, and then there's asdf-compatible piggybacking. 16:07:46 i agree with everyone else against the proposal. 16:07:54 that doesn't make me unsympathetic to the problem... 16:08:17 I've spent far too long reading asdf.lisp, and I really think that ASDF manages to arrange things so that you can't be compatible with ASDF without being ASDF. 16:08:18 I don't think either asdf or asdf-install is perfect, but I'm having a hard time figuring out what the major problems are that require a new system to be written 16:08:54 Getting off cliki would be a plus, as would having some kind of standardized version-numbering system so I can just tell asdf-install to upgrade my installed packages 16:08:56 How important is ASDF compatibility? 16:09:02 chandler: asdf-install is very bad 16:09:09 But, the way clbuild does things seems to be totally alien to my sensibilities 16:09:14 adeht: um, ok? 16:09:37 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-17-202-253.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:10:35 asdf-install works tolerably well if you use the exact same configuration that the author of asdf-install uses. 16:10:49 that is, sbcl on linux. 16:10:59 It seems to work OK for sbcl on OS X, too. 16:11:02 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 16:11:15 chandler: the way I look at it is that because ASDF isn't always what I want, IWBNI I could use something for some system else without that system being a hopeless outcast. 16:11:42 The Hopeful Outcasts will be performing at Lisp50 16:11:55 anyway, lunchtime. 16:11:56 kreuter: isn't it relatively easy to make ASDF punt to your something-else? 16:11:59 does CL "community" have or had or tried to have something like SRFI, PEP? (not sure how that's acronymified, not python guy myself) 16:12:00 Wild Inferiors headlining 16:12:12 sladegen: there's the CDR process 16:12:22 I've written ASDF systems that use MK to load older defsystems before. 16:12:22 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 16:12:36 *Xach* wonders how profitable googling for [cdr lisp] will be to find that process 16:13:00 'cdr lisp -car'? :) 16:13:01 not nearly as useless as i thought: http://cdr.eurolisp.org/ is it 16:13:08 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:21 Xach: `no abstracting for taste' is a good point. missed your comments earlier, i was in a meeting. 16:13:35 there is also a clrfi process, but that seems dead. 16:13:50 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:13:58 salex: it's tongue in cheek, actually. i think you can abstract for taste a bit. 16:14:18 the standarization of standarization... godel would be proud. 16:14:24 demmel1 [i=demmeln@atradig111.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:25 Xach: indeed - isn't that what TeX was all about? 16:14:38 beautiful defaults go a long way, but of course won't rescue you completely. 16:14:45 splittist_: is it? if so, it makes sense. 16:14:53 Xach: agreed, but the person doing it a) has to have the taste and b) whould make it difficult to work around 16:15:01 on the other hand you can have something like gnuplot 16:15:03 TeX is a good example, actually 16:15:27 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 16:15:30 V-ille, well looks like i deleted the folder of the decompiled ABCL files.. but basically .. i unzipped the .abcl files and renamed the .cls to .class .. then ran the decompiler on them 16:15:36 salex: you can rent taste for a reasonable fee from eastern europeans 16:15:49 Xach: AIUI, yes. But there are centuries of builtup knowledge of how to layout text, and at least many, many decades of how to lay out maths. Graphs? Not so much, I think. 16:15:53 chandler: it's very simplistic; all it does is fetch contents of a url (that anyone can control - and no, gpg sigs don't cut it), extract and load. it doesn't handle updating, uninstalling, etc. and since dcvs is the hotness these days, I can't see why a tool shouldn't adopt it as part of its infrastructure. 16:15:56 Xach: I have also used the copy of asdf-install that comes with OpenMCL with sufficient success. If the "portable" version is broken, perhaps it should be fixed. 16:16:02 *Xach* has actually been meaning to put a beautiful redesign of planet lisp up for bid 16:16:14 -!- trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:17:04 adeht: I am not sure what advantage a dcvs buys you in this system. I do agree that replacing the cliki part of asdf-install would be a good idea. 16:17:10 chandler: oh, it also has some support for dependencies. 16:18:56 Asdf-install is also pretty fragile with respect to the behavior of whatever tar and gpgpgp programs you have. 16:19:19 chandler: dcvs handles communication and part of the update process, removes the need for packaging, and well, provides source control. 16:19:46 V-ille, http://paste.lisp.org/display/52176 16:20:03 I have a very naive question. There is a Windows program that provides a standard GUI to various applications that speak its protocol. The GUI expects these applications to be executables that then read/write to stdin/stdout. 16:20:13 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:20:43 adeht: removing the need for packaging is not an advantage as far as I can tell. It encourages developers not to declare particular versions of their code as stable and ready for general use, and when fetching code causes a huge number of unnecessary HTTP requests. 16:21:08 chandler: there are tags for that 16:21:14 splittist_: yet surprisingly often, those centuries of knowledge about laying out texts are ignored 16:21:15 complete protection from accidental loss of local changes on update is one advantage version control systems (and distributed vcs in particular) offer, and part of the reason clbuild doesn't download any tarballs anymore 16:21:22 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:21:40 I would like to play with this GUI from the REPL. Is there a super simple way to provide a shim/thing for the GUI to execute that would 'redirect' stdin/out to things I could open and read/write to from a variety of lisps? 16:21:56 and not just protection in the "we put a backup somewhere before updating" sense (we also have that as an extra command in clbuild), but in the "full history available" sense 16:22:04 salex: true. 16:22:26 adeht: right, and if we take it a step further and not have the system download irrelevant (to me as a user) history information, and futher reduce all of the HTTP requests into one request by bundling it into one file, we've just invented a source release 16:22:35 salex: and then there are things like the atrocious defaults of Powerpoint and Excel (charts) that encourage drek. 16:22:47 (dreck?) 16:23:05 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:17 indeed 16:23:22 lichtblau: I'm really not seeing why this is an advantage. If I want the source with history for something I'm using, I can check it out. If I just want to use it, I want a declared-stable version, not whatever's in the repository. 16:23:23 afk 16:23:23 chandler: the "user" is a programmer.. I know I prefer to have the whole repository rather than just a snapshot of it, and it also encourages writing helpful patches rather than just "taking it as it stands". 16:23:45 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:23:59 chandler: it also makes updates more efficient than release-style. 16:24:25 chandler: okay, I can see that, and that's why I have releases (and tarballs for those releases) for my projects 16:24:26 i dunno, i see a division there. 16:24:38 chandler: and many http requests is only a side-effect of the particular dcvs you may use. 16:24:42 in some cases i want to care about the project and ponder manipulating it, in other (most?) cases I don't. 16:24:44 I'm not sure how many updates you'd have to do before it really became more efficient than releases, but that number seems awfully high to me. A single .tar.gz is significantly more efficient than one HTTP request per file. 16:25:06 *Xach* doesn't care much about conserving http requests 16:25:16 I have a clim question: when writing text (or other stuff) on an application pane, is it possible to write a bulk of stuff and then print it to the screen and do the neccessary resize of the pane at once, not for every single atomar operation, since this is very slow? 16:25:43 Xach: Perhaps my experience is out of date, but I've observed that checkouts and updates in many DVCSes can be awfully slow. 16:25:49 chandler: right now, you get "old but stable cxml" from asdf-install. And you get "state of flux, not entirely documented, but fancy new support for XPath and XSLT cxml" from clbuild. 16:25:50 lichtblau: do you find yourself working with a related bunch of libraries with local changes? 16:25:52 Xach: it's the transition from "non-caring" to "caring" mode that having a repo facilitates 16:25:54 or do i have to write to pixmap and then copy that to the screen? 16:26:07 adeht: in most cases i find "caring" a failure mode. 16:26:16 It's just two different things. Kind of like Debian stable and Debian testing, except that we don't have the manpower to package up tarballs for the testing versions. 16:26:19 as in, the library is broken and i have to start poking at its internals. 16:26:36 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 16:26:46 Xach: yeah, all the time. Like when clim-alerts stopped working recently, I hacked CLX to make it work again. 16:26:50 lichtblau: right, which is why I am using what is in asdf-install. As long as I don't need to make changes to CXML (and I haven't so far), I would prefer to avoid what is in a state of flux. 16:27:01 (I wish I'd have had the time to make a proper patch and submit it, but quick local changes were easier.) 16:28:08 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:28:18 chandler: some dvcses don't require a request per file (or commit, or whatever).. they have packs you can download with a single or few requests 16:29:19 chandler: working with a "stable" release is just using a particular tagged head, and the Lisp system management system can help there, too. 16:29:43 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-48-185.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:55 ths [n=ths@HSI-KBW-091-089-185-014.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 16:30:26 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 16:32:46 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 16:33:52 noone with clim experience around... :-( 16:34:12 adeht: I am not sure how this accomplishes anything other than reinventing releases. 16:34:43 real releases are more work. 16:35:04 not without benefit, but still more work. 16:35:31 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:34 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 16:35:34 right; that extra work typically includes the things that I'm missing from VCS-only projects. 16:35:37 chandler: people using dvcses already do that; in order to make a release they also need to make a tarball with a new name (possibly new uri), ad hoc versioning convention, etc. 16:36:09 adeht: that versioning convetion shouldn't be ad-hoc if my asdf-install replacement is going to correctly manage dependencies! 16:37:35 demmel1: I didn't understand your question. 16:38:45 adeht: also, because DVCSes seem to still be in the "flavor of the week" phase of their maturity, I need to install three or four extra version control systems I'm not otherwise using just to be able to fetch and use the stable versions of a few libraries. 16:39:23 chandler: is that a big deal? 16:39:35 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbafa5.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:39:47 adeht: Yes. People should make releases of their projects, damnit. 16:39:50 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:40:03 Yes, in that it raises the amount of work I need to do until I have cool stuff happening. 16:40:17 foom: I think so too, but I think those releases should be represented as tags. 16:40:38 chandler: it's a one-time cost. 16:40:48 It is a higher barrier to entry. 16:40:59 chandler: right. I don't worry about entry. 16:41:08 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:18 adeht: tags are great. but tarballs generated from the tags, linked from your website are better. 16:41:31 And getting those VCSes installed is not necessarily trivial, depending on your platform. 16:41:39 Does git yet have an easily installable Windows port? 16:41:43 it seems to me that usually people who don't make releases don't bother making tags either. or at least, if they do, they don't mention them anywhere. 16:41:44 (Or do you not worry about that, either?) 16:41:46 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-36-127.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:42:01 foom: I don't see how they're better, given a system management system that is dvcs-backed. 16:42:12 chandler: yes.. msysgit 16:42:38 note that clbuild wasn't invented because anyone thought that releases shuoldn't be done, nor because releases weren't done. It was invented because some people found that, in practise, getting the latest bleeding edge version actually worked more reliably for them. 16:42:49 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:42:49 chandler: git on windows is far less painful than is darcs on os x (-: 16:42:59 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 16:43:08 foom: that doesn't seem relevant to the discussion 16:43:11 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-36-127.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:43:19 antifuchs: darcs on OSX is painful? 16:43:20 foom: I agree with that. If developers are really declaring a version of their code as "stable" and providing appropriate information on how the system has changed since the last stable version, then fetching the source code and running "tar cvzf my-software-2.3.4.tar.gz my-software" is not a great amount of work 16:43:23 (both situations have recently changed for the better) (: 16:43:37 michaelw: I used to install it from macports - hooray for 3-hour compilation cycles of ghc (: 16:43:37 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:43:49 or was it more like 8 hours? I only did that once (: 16:43:53 antifuchs: that's because macports suck :) 16:43:55 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 16:44:17 They do, but the other alternative is finding a binary package that may or may not be latest-and-greatest, and may-or-may-not break on every point release of OS X 16:44:43 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:44:49 chandler: yep, exactly. Developers who care about making stable releases tend to also care about people being able to use their software, thus they make it available as a tarball. 16:44:52 By contrast, fetching a tarball over HTTP is sufficiently well understood at this point that we can do all of the necessary operations in Common Lisp! 16:44:58 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-155-193-182.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:02 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:09 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 16:45:15 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:45:42 beach: I want to display many lines of text on a scrolled application pane 16:45:42 (For what it's worth, I don't actually have any of the DVCSes installed at this point.) 16:46:12 demmel1: OK so far. 16:46:20 beach: displaying is very slow, e.g. as resizing happens for each individual line 16:46:38 demmel1: oh? 16:46:49 chandler: that's conservatism for you :).. the discussion was about software to manage Lisp systems taking dvcs repositories into account 16:46:59 beach: so if the lines get longer i do as many resizes as lines horizonatally 16:47:06 and vertically anyway 16:47:29 so i just want to display the whole thing at once 16:47:32 what is your :display-time setting? 16:47:47 command loop 16:47:57 -!- lesho [n=uzivatel@lesho.intrak.tuke.sk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:48:11 but isnt that the time when the display function as a whole is invoked? 16:48:18 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:48:21 yes it is. 16:48:33 demmel1: did you try using incremental redisplay? 16:48:46 beach: not yet 16:48:57 i guess i could look into it 16:49:14 but i guess its no use if i insert a line at the top, or is it? 16:49:24 demmel1: I think if you have lots of stuff to display, and things look similar between iterations of the command loop, you might want to consider it. 16:49:41 demmel1: consider using :double-buffering t on the pane 16:49:50 it won't make things faster, but it'll avoid flicker 16:49:52 that's another possibility, yes. 16:49:57 adeht: it was? I thought it was about "what should replace asdf-install". 16:50:21 demmel1: another possibility is to open a new output record from time to time, grouping lines into (say) paragraphs. 16:50:27 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 16:51:22 Other than that, my suggestion would be to render only the lines that are actually visible, i.e. do scrolling yourself and don't go near incremental redisplay at all. (I think this is the opposite suggestion from what beach is explaining though.) 16:51:29 lichtblau: franz' clim2 user guide doesnt seem to mention double-buffering. isnt that on by default for application frames? 16:51:35 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 16:51:49 demmel1: right, that's one of my McCLIM extensions. 16:51:57 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.119.34] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:52:05 demmel1: and no, it's not on by default. 16:52:35 beach: ah ok, i might look into it, but im not so much concerned with the flickering as the time it takes 16:52:49 chandler: anyway, I think the clbuild approach is a step forward. 16:53:04 beach: what im really displaying is a tree and the user can expand or collaps the children of nodes 16:53:28 beach: a bit like in a file system explorer 16:53:47 demmel1: then incremental redisplaly should speed things up considerably. Existing lines will not be recomputed, and existing output records will be used (possibly moved around) instead. The text would have to be repainted, but you won't have to recompute scroll bars as much. 16:53:57 beach: so there is lots of stuff that stays the same, just at a different position 16:54:34 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:35 beach: ah ok. so this might be quite good. 16:54:56 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-155-193-182.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:07 demmel1: I suggest you might try it, yes. You can start with the simple version "updating-output". 16:55:23 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:55:32 lichblau: but the scrolling will be quite slow, wont it? 16:56:01 demmel1: it lets you pretty much preserve the structure of your existing display function, but you have to insert an `updating-output' in strategic places. 16:56:40 beach: each node would be an updating output i guess 16:56:47 demmel1: very likely, yes. 16:56:59 beach: it either stays the same, dissapears or expands 16:57:08 demmel1: sounds right. 16:57:29 beach: what did you mean by this: another possibility is to open a new output record from time to time, grouping lines into (say) paragraphs. 16:57:48 beach: is that in conjunction with incremental redisplay? 16:57:59 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-155-193-182.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:58:24 demmel1: no that was as an alternative, but that solution is essentially implied when you use incremental redisplay. 16:58:34 beach: ah ok 16:58:36 plutonas [n=plutonas@h-188-232.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 16:59:07 demmel1: I just meant something like, whenever you draw a node, surround it with with-output-record. I can't guarantee that it would help, but it's an easy thing to try. 16:59:12 beach: one more thing: does your double-buffering extension allow specifying when the swap of the buffer happens? 16:59:29 demmel1: no, it always happens at the end of the command loop. 16:59:46 demmel1: it's pretty hacky, but it seems to work for some applications. 17:00:23 demmel1: I don't think so. My recommendation is to render stuff yourself, and to limit your output to what's currently visible. IOW, you'd do manually what incremental redisplay promises to do magically, except that you know it'll actually be fast. 17:00:28 beach: ah. so this might solve my issue aswell, since all the stuff in my display function doesn't hit the screen till its done... 17:01:10 demmel1: try out some of these suggestions and let me know how it worked out. 17:01:35 beach: thanks a lot! 17:01:55 No problem. Hope it works! Good luck with it! 17:02:10 lichtblau: i'll try the built in solution and come back to your idea when that is still to slow. thanks anyway! 17:02:30 lichtblau: mein auge! 17:02:51 demmel1: when you consider doing it like lichtblau suggests, I would rather you implement it in McCLIM than in your application, because it would benefit all applications then. 17:03:11 Xach: what's up with your eye? 17:03:27 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:30 it hurts from the fancy glowing text 17:03:44 beach: one last question. the double buffering extension ships with mcclim or needs to be installed first? 17:03:52 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-155-193-182.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:54 demmel1: it's in there. 17:04:08 beach: certainly worth giving a try 17:04:18 -!- splittist_ [n=splittis@118.143.4.5] has quit ["bye"] 17:04:23 beach: i'll report back ;-) 17:04:28 beach: bye for now 17:04:29 Please do. 17:05:21 *lichtblau* checks planet lisp to confirm that he didn't accidentally blog glowing text, is still confused 17:05:33 luis [n=luis@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 17:05:53 lichtblau: I see ^Ds in your text. Maybe that has something to do with it. 17:05:54 "actually be fast" 17:06:31 lichtblau: your text is bold and blinking 17:06:35 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:06:43 lichtblau: yeah it reverses/lightsup on my terminal, too. 17:06:59 Xach: does this do the same: hello  there? 17:07:14 yes 17:07:24 beach: my eye! 17:07:29 lichtblau: it's your ^D characters!! 17:07:45 Xach: you probably mean "mitt öga"! 17:08:35 Mitt ficklexikon! 17:08:38 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["let me try with a fresh erc"] 17:08:52 heh 17:08:58 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:09:36 adeht: I think clbuild is a step in a different direction. Ultimately it could use much of the same information that drives an asdf-install replacement, but it is for a different sort of user. 17:09:46 lichtblau: I think you probably just accidentally did ^q^d or something like that. 17:10:01 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-468beab8ecacefab] has joined #lisp 17:10:21 So that guy who was hosting a bootleg PCL PDF was quite friendly and took it down. 17:10:27 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C837.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:10:31 too much chording. 17:10:39 gigamonkey: good to hear! 17:10:46 (sorry about that, whatever it was. I don't think I actually put a ^d into my buffer, since ERC would display that to me) 17:11:13 hmm, yes, maybe so. 17:11:14 perhaps it is Emacs' wonky Unicode support misfiring 17:11:19 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-108.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:55 pdewacht [n=pdewacht@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 17:12:03 gigamonkey: have you checked p2p nets? btw why no pdf? don't want bootlegged prints? 17:12:16 sladegen: there *is* a pdf 17:12:20 sladegen: there is a PDF available for free on the Apress site 17:12:22 sladegen: you can get it from apress.com 17:12:56 sladegen: the bootleg PDF was a (pointless) HTML-to-PDF conversion 17:12:57 dmiles_afk: Is that a decompile of abcl itself, or a decompile of an actual program? 17:12:58 oh... sorry, im so poor i don't go to amazon or "official" publisher sites ;( 17:13:34 V-ille, one Primitive that was compiled by ABCL (dotimes) 17:13:36 Decompiling abcl is not worth it, but decompiling an actual program might be. I don't think it would pass scrutiny as a real java program, though. 17:13:38 sladegen: you might try a library 17:13:39 sladegen: my preferences are (in order) that people a) buy the book b) read it off my web site c) find the Apress PDF 17:14:02 gigamonkey: right 17:14:03 Yeah, library would be in there somewhere. Probabyl a.1 or b.1 17:14:05 It's probably not going to resemble something that an actual programmer would write. 17:14:25 V-ille, it was mainly so i could find good and bad things the ABCL bytecode was producing 17:14:27 antifuchs: i doubt it has been translated in case of PCL... 17:15:11 dmiles_afk: I'll maybe look at a decompile of a "real" program at some point. It's not that realistic for java-only shops so I'm not going to give it high priority. 17:15:32 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:44 V-ille, well a real program that ABCL compiles will be several hundred class files 17:16:06 V-ille, that is an example of one of the many it would have produced 17:16:26 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 17:16:33 yes, but if that's a decompile of the abcl internals, it doesn't count 17:16:34 Bah. Off topic but can anyone tell me how to get ERC to prompt me for my NickServ identify password. I've set erc-nickserv-identify-mode to both and erc-prompt-for-nickserv-password to t. What else do I need to do? 17:16:42 Trying to produce Java source code that looks like it was written by a real human from something which does not smell like Java is a losing battle. If people want Java source, they want it to be maintained as Java. 17:17:00 +1 17:17:08 V-ille, oh in that case that'd be "users" code.. not ABNCL itself 17:17:13 V-ille, oh in that case that'd be "users" code.. not ABCL itself 17:17:18 ah. well, what chandler said 17:17:20 tic: how's your progression to becoming an Emacs user going. ;-) 17:17:50 chandler: I found the Linj presentation pretty impressive, but I never used it so I don't know if it's only the presentation that's impressive. 17:17:50 right that files was maintained as .lisp code 17:17:50 *tic* bonks gigamonkey with a heavy, yellow book. 17:18:03 As I said too, it's not realistic to attempt to camouflage lisp code as java 17:18:08 that was done .lisp->.class->.java 17:19:20 Round-tripping something like that is hard also. 17:19:25 gigamonkey, tried screen+irssi or screen+weechat? 17:19:29 note to self, slurping a binary file with variable-length structures into a vector and treating it like a sequence is a losing battle. READ your bytes one at a time, with the right bytespec. 17:19:53 So it's pointless to not code *language* in a *language*-only shop. For reasons other than technical, too. 17:20:03 a java lisp project i work on.. we go from lisp to java.. but then we pretend the lisp doesnt exist and just maintain the .java.. but that is for like 20 out of 16000 lisp classes ;P 17:20:31 those 20 it;'s just more convient to use .java fore 17:21:31 Well, your shop is multilanguage to begin with. 17:21:50 tic: what! And leave Emacs? Never! 17:21:54 -!- plutonas is now known as krigios 17:22:00 For other places, it's an uphill battle to advocate lisp if some other language is already used for everything. 17:22:29 *nod*, yeah i was just added to the conversation earier.. i really dont think the .java is going to be that terible 17:22:54 Well, it's terrible enough that it's not likely to pass scrutiny. 17:22:56 its not what a java programmer would have written.. but its what a java programmer would maintain 17:23:09 Oh yes, it can be maintained after it's cleaned up. 17:23:11 luis: cffi question: is it possible to call functions referenced in a struct and, if so, how? 17:23:33 turbo24p1g: funcall 17:23:43 gigamonkey, you spend more time with Emacs than me! It's over between us! 17:23:46 V-ille, yeah . well java programmers are just too easy to offend "Well, it's terrible enough that it's not likely to pass scrutiny." 17:23:50 functions referenced in a struct? you mean, function pointers? 17:24:10 fusss, would define-binary-class from PCL help here? 17:24:20 turbo24p1g: oh, sorry, didn't see the "cffi" part. I have no idea then. 17:24:30 PCL as in Programming Common Lisp? 17:24:35 turbo24p1g: foreign-funcall 17:24:39 dmiles_afk: I don't think that kind of code should pass scrutiny. Maybe I'm easy to offend. 17:24:40 fusss: Practical Common Lisp 17:24:48 minion, tell fusss about that-dead-sexy-book 17:24:49 fusss: direct your attention towards that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 17:25:00 I know, I have it open in another window 17:25:06 :-P 17:25:22 Very well then! There's a chapter on reading in binary data in a sensible manner. 17:25:26 V-ille, though if its doing something that we as java people dont like.. then it should be fixed in the ABCL compiler though 17:25:37 fuss: http://l1sp.org/pcl/code-char 17:25:41 fusss, chapter 24 specifically. 17:25:50 dmiles_afk: I'm not one of "java people", actually. :) 17:26:09 turbo24p1g: dereferencing a function pointer stored in a c-struct slot. should be straight forward. 17:26:11 *gigamonkey* likes to guess what CL symbol will take people to the right part of PCL via l1sp.org 17:26:19 I also think it's pointless to try making abcl generate different code just so that it decompiles into a more beautiful form. 17:26:20 turbo24p1g: or is it foreign-funcall-pointer, I do't remember. 17:26:36 Realistic uses for something like that are IMHO few and worthless. 17:26:44 V-ille, What was ugly about that output? 17:26:58 -!- krigios is now known as plutonas 17:27:02 hah 17:27:03 V-ille, well an example might be boxing fixnums and unboxing them for numerical operators is what i mean by terrible 17:27:06 dmiles_afk: The depth and width of it. 17:28:06 V-ille, ah .. i not concerred with format like stuff like that i have 9000 pixel wide screen.. that code is nice for me 17:28:18 turbo24p1g: foreign-funcall 17:29:03 V-ille, and even the creation of Arrays look just fine 17:29:14 Matter of opinion. 17:29:37 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-108.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:29:44 V-ille, well thats the .class .. that would have been that way w/o anyone making .java 17:30:02 silenius [n=jl@e178005058.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:30:11 if i compile the output of decompilier its ussually about 99% correct 17:30:11 turbo24p1g: (foreign-funcall (foreign-slot-value struct-name 'function-name) ..) <-- untested 17:30:24 Oh, I don't question whether it's correct. 17:30:26 there should be a cleaner way, maybe a WITH macro 17:30:41 foreign-funcall-pointer, just checked 17:30:44 That's just unmaintainable in its current form. 17:31:12 thats java.. why its written in lisp ;P 17:31:17 luis: do you know if cffi-grovel does The Right Thing? 17:31:36 Or lisp written in java, if you prefer. 17:31:36 V-ille, i am just saying every once in a while one should decompile that output just to make sure you like the compiler 17:31:50 I have a good chunk of FFMPEG FFI'ed 17:32:00 dmiles_afk: Not a bad idea. 17:32:11 fusss: not sure what yo're talking about 17:32:42 cffi-grovel, is it fully automatic in converting a C header file to CFFI code? 17:33:13 right now I'm in dependency hell, chasing one struct member after another 17:33:23 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:33:26 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E441BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:34 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #lisp 17:33:51 most importantly, cffi doesn't handle recursive defenitions well. e.g. struct node { void *data; struct node *next}; can't be done cleanly 17:34:38 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224120206.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:34:43 (defcstruct node (data (:pointer :void)) (next (:pointer node)) returns an error, because slot NODE isn't defined anywhere else, i.e. it's recursive 17:35:00 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.206.19] has joined #lisp 17:35:02 fusss: I don't think that's cffi-grovel's goal. Maybe you want verrazano? 17:35:19 only way I can get it work is comment out the offending slot, evaluate it, then uncomment it and eval again 17:35:30 fusss: try (defcstruct node (data :pointer) (next :pointer)) 17:35:55 verazzano, the bridge in New York city? :-P 17:36:13 luis: yeah, that works, i know 17:36:39 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F753.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:46 ejs [n=eugen@95-158-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:02 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 17:37:23 argh. i was excited about trying walter pelissero's C parser, but it looks like it just punts to the system C compiler :( 17:37:28 wait, i only got the :pointer position above wrong, but either way, I had to remove the node specifier as you did to get it to work 17:38:09 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 17:38:38 -!- ejs is now known as ejs0 17:39:25 V-ille, what is the difference between dotimes_1.G123039 and dotimes_1.G123040 in http://paste.lisp.org/display/52176? 17:39:54 is it that the cons might be laster modified? 17:41:57 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB99CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:42:02 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 17:42:02 or actually G123045_DOTIMES_LIMIT_VARIABLE_P and G123047_DOTIMES_LIMIT_VARIABLE_P 17:42:17 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 17:42:46 basically i am implying that one can reduce overhead by making a table of fields durring compiling 17:42:51 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB99CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:43:38 well chicking to see if something is preeisting in the table.. that was probly even done this way once,, but as to fix some wierd bug.. someone let duplicates in 17:43:57 chicking/checking 17:45:12 sidewinder128 [n=chatzill@nttkyo589168.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:47:27 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46BB0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:16 out of all the things abcl does, thats the only bad thing i saw abcl do in that file 17:49:42 luis: your common-lisp.net email is bouncing, is there somewhere else I can mail a patch? 17:49:48 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:18 *Xach* smells common-lisp.net rt trouble ticket brewing! 17:53:04 milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.60] has joined #lisp 17:53:39 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:56:05 *H4ns* fixed luis' .forward file permissions 17:56:10 nullednick [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:22 aha 17:57:24 dmiles_afk: well, no idea why they are different, but I'd think those cells are separately modified afterwards. It looks like a gensym'ed symbol. 17:57:57 An it it, because it's inside a let. 17:58:00 is 17:58:14 H4ns: that will never teach them to use the right way :( 17:58:20 H4ns: where is your BOFH spirit? 17:58:36 -!- kleppari [n=spa@85-220-66-164.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:58:55 it seems impossible to convert people from c++ or java to lisp 17:58:55 people are just happily ignorant about the fact that lisp was a better language a long time ago than java is today 17:59:27 for some values of better 18:00:28 nullednick, yes. also, Lisp has too many parens. 18:00:32 <3 smug 18:00:32 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:00:55 people *do* convert. 18:00:56 anybody know of a working call graph visualizer that works with SBCL? 18:00:56 (or have suggestions about what to use to build one?) 18:00:57 Xach: i have none of that. bofh spirit is for twens and grown-old lusers. 18:01:19 "twens"? 18:01:30 twenty-year old teens? 18:01:31 H4n's evil twin? 18:01:34 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:01:36 *H4ns* also fixed the rest of the .forward files. sorry for the glitch 18:01:37 H4ns's, rather 18:01:37 nullednick: I wouldn't say that. i was "happy" with C++, but tried lisp because I wanted to copy some alleged features from it to C++. 18:01:53 gigamonkey: that is a german-english term for people below thirty. 18:02:21 ah. 18:02:22 gigamonkey: in my experience, that is the "bofh" and "i <3 computer security" age group :) 18:02:29 fusss: Did you write a big long article about that? I seem to recall reading about someone who was trying to do the exact same thing. Particularly after reading Norvig's little coding challenge. 18:02:39 compsec is quite boring. I never really got that spectrum. 18:02:53 i have never written anything 18:03:12 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 18:03:20 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:40 fusss: I recommend written literacy as soon as you're able 18:03:48 i just need a "symbol" class for c++ and someone said lisp symbols have attributes (properties) 18:03:55 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@95-158-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:04:34 sounds like you want std::map! 18:04:55 salex: btw, did you see the movie chart graphics? 18:05:01 *dlowe* flees in horror. 18:05:15 salex: i think i might have gone a little crazy without a bunch of vecto convenience functions 18:05:28 tic: yeah, i guess i did. doesn't matter now. 18:06:44 I used hemlock on cmucl for 3 years before i learned it was considered "difficult" :-P 18:07:11 hemlockers of the world, unite 18:07:32 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.3.144] has joined #lisp 18:07:46 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-19-99.kosnet.ru] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:08:00 brb, cig 18:08:41 just the one? 18:09:13 vasa [n=vasa@93.84.244.17] has joined #lisp 18:09:21 can anyone suggest me a good CL implementation for the Mac? 18:09:28 sidewinder128: CCL 18:09:33 sidewinder128: SBCL 18:09:37 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.206.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:09:44 sidewinder128: there are several very good ones. 18:09:51 SBCL is very fast and compiles to native right? 18:10:04 sidewinder128: you'll find most lisp compilers compile to native 18:10:07 CCL, too. 18:10:18 h ok 18:10:23 thanks guys 18:10:30 I will check it out those 18:12:38 Both SBCL and CCL are good choices. 18:13:21 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0DDB.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:53 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:18:19 milanj- [n=milan@77.46.251.75] has joined #lisp 18:18:31 clozure should have nice graphics support. they use it in/for AgenSheets 18:18:55 "nice" and "enough glue to make an application" aren't always similar 18:19:17 Xach: yeah, i saw the movie graphics. 18:19:23 -!- nullednick [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:25 I have no idea where clozure is on the nice scale, though. 18:19:26 nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:42 i've occasionally thought about writing a `proper' plotting package, at least for the sorts of things I care about 18:20:01 or revamping one of the ones lying around, anyway 18:20:36 i liked what you did with that (movies) btw 18:21:06 lots & lots of rectangles 18:21:28 yeah, i guess so! 18:21:29 *Xach* should try to make an interactive opengl program to fly through the streams! 18:21:56 you could do something with floodfilled spline boundarys, at a guess 18:25:26 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.60] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:26 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:27:27 xristos [n=xristos@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 18:29:45 erm, i meant for your lots-of-rectangles, not the ogl 18:30:54 PuntinatoreFolle [i=IRC2GOUs@host175-226-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:31:08 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:16 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:33:14 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-159-157.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 18:33:25 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.3.144] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:33:33 -!- vasa [n=vasa@93.84.244.17] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:33:43 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:35:17 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-195-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 18:38:15 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:40:52 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:23 -!- PuntinatoreFolle [i=IRC2GOUs@host175-226-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["http://irc2go.com/"] 18:46:49 hrm... my sb-alien fu has atrophied... 18:47:08 how do I allocate an array of (* double) with with-alien? 18:47:22 I can do it with make-alien, but I seem to be doing something wrong with with-alien 18:47:30 (make-array x :element-type (byte 5 0)) == error? trying to create an array of X 5-bit bytes 18:48:07 fusss: the :element-type argument is evaluated 18:48:16 so quote it? 18:48:19 slyrus_: (with-alien ((buf (array (* double) 10))) ...) I think. 18:48:41 fusss: yes, but that's not a valid type specifier. 18:48:58 how do I make a valid type specifier? 18:49:11 fusss: signed-byte or unsigned-byte are types you might use. 18:49:12 (signed-byte 5), for example 18:49:13 * double-float does seem to work. thanks kreuter 18:49:17 ooh, somebody bring on the 11.1.2.1.2.1.2.1.2.1.2 smackdown! 18:49:34 slyrus_: oh, sorry. 18:49:51 fusss: '(signed-byte 5) would work 18:49:57 kreuter: oh, now I remember the problem. the size isn't evaluated. 18:50:06 fusss: that will get upgraded to something else, most likely. 18:50:19 yeah, it seems to work 18:50:36 on my system, it gets upgraded to (signed-byte 8) 18:51:00 slyrus_: I haven't tried it, but the SBCL manual says there's an sb-alien:double. 18:51:39 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:51:44 hahaha, i have been getting character results where i was expecting number .. but oh, *print-base* was bound to 16 18:51:46 ; unknown alien type: DOUBLE 18:51:55 but that's not my problem, the unevaluated size is :) 18:51:57 vasa [n=vasa@93.84.243.125] has joined #lisp 18:52:20 okay. 18:53:45 neat, '(mod 16) is a valid type specifier! 18:54:45 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.228.1] has joined #lisp 18:54:47 -!- vasa [n=vasa@93.84.243.125] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:54:50 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 18:54:59 -!- mye [n=mye@dslb-088-070-026-220.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 18:55:02 trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 18:55:02 *Xach* has the MOD type burned in his head from too many "X is not of type (MOD 1152921504606846975)" errors 18:55:28 those errors used to be so easy to read, on 32-bit platforms. 18:55:40 64 is just too many bits. 18:56:56 so easy to get, too 18:57:05 *Xach* hasn't had an error like that in a long time 18:57:13 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 18:57:26 bah. 64K is big enough for anybody, right? 18:58:44 *drewc* saw one of those just the other day. 18:58:51 i was doing something stupid IIRC 18:59:00 on a grand scale 19:00:41 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:56 ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-138-29-243.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:05:54 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-87.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:06:43 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2BEB5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:09:14 -!- caliostro [n=chatzill@82.85.85.34] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 19:11:00 how can I get more precision than this? CL-USER> 0.29283749751237462 => 0.2928375 19:11:01 Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has joined #lisp 19:11:31 vasa [n=vasa@93.84.244.2] has joined #lisp 19:11:52 egn: using a "d0" suffix would help. 19:12:04 egn: changing *read-default-float-format* would also change how your number is read 19:12:16 Push pushes the elememt in the front of the list. Is there a function to put it at the end of the list? Cons handles the operation differently. 19:12:25 -!- deafmacro [n=user@59.92.200.100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:31 -!- ivanst [i=ivans@93-136-21-80.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:39 Instead of ((nil nil nil) "." 0 1 0 0 4 0 4), I want (nil nil nil ("." 0 1 0 0 4 0 4)) --------- this is using cons 19:12:39 Serva: APPEND, sort of. but if you find yourself doing that a lot, it's probably the wrong design for your Lisp program. 19:13:18 Xach: ah, what's the largest *read-default-float-format* I can set? DOUBLE-FLOAT 19:13:54 egn: I don't know, sorry. DOUBLE-FLOAT might be the most portable one. CMUCL has double-doubles. 19:14:21 Xach: k, thanks 19:14:22 Serva pasted "Successor Func" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68512 19:15:03 I am using push in this successor function. 19:15:28 does append impacts the perf? 19:15:45 the longer the list, the slower to append 19:16:11 the function is working correctly, just the order of the insertion needs to be reversed 19:16:22 I will always have a max of 4 successors 19:16:30 egn: maybe long-float 19:17:05 l4ndfo: k, thanks 19:17:17 tks Xach 19:17:59 also, what is d0 actually doing? and if I (+ 0.2938472934873943d0 0.2472934872394d0), how can I make it return a d0 (or whatever it is) instead of the default flot 19:18:14 float* 19:18:54 egn: the d0 suffix is the read syntax for getting a double float. 19:19:33 egn: you will generally get print/read consistency, so *read-default-float-format* will affect whether the lisp printer shows the suffix 19:20:27 egn: the operations returns the widest type of the arguments, so that addition will return a double-float 19:21:08 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:43 -!- Jarvellis is now known as JHVH 19:23:08 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E458AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:32 -!- sidewinder128 [n=chatzill@nttkyo589168.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:25:55 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:26:14 Xach, I want to be able to insert nil into a nil list. For e.g. the list that will have all of the successors is empty, and checking for the first potential successor node. If it finds that to be illegal, it should still be inserting a nil into the successor list. 19:26:25 (push nil nil) does not do that 19:26:27 kleppari [n=spa@157-157-228-97.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 19:27:16 Serva: PUSH is a macro that operates on a place. 19:27:35 So, if there is no successor (out of potential 4), the successor list should return (nil nil nil nil) 19:27:39 Serva: Your general problem is too complicated for me to muster the energy to care about, sorry. 19:27:42 there's no such thing as a NIL list. 19:28:03 there is a distinguished object, NIL, that is the empty list 19:28:14 there is only zuul? 19:28:16 Xach: l4ndfo: k, I'm not sure why this would be happening still if my default is DOUBLE-FLOAT 19:28:18 egn pasted "not double-float" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68513 19:28:53 and the empty list is immutable (modulo it also being a symbol, and a symbol's plist being mutable). 19:29:10 Xach, that is fine. 19:29:17 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-96-28.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:29:36 egn: yup, a single float isn't a double float. 19:30:25 pkhuong: is -8.653066e-4 a single float? 19:30:48 I don't think that's the problem. 19:31:15 egn: I think that type specifier is looking for a positive number, and your value is not positive. 19:31:15 usually not, but the real problem is that it's not positive. 19:31:27 egn: It's not related to its double-floatness. 19:31:30 ah 19:34:06 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:34:25 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 19:35:19 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 19:38:03 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E441BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:40 fiel-legnht <-- a variable from last night, must be in lolcode 19:42:30 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-17-24.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:44:11 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:45:46 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:52 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.228.1] has quit [] 19:46:55 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 19:48:47 *Xach* adds the clozurecl blog to planet lisp 19:51:00 wow! i didn't know "Calendrical Calculations" included implementations in Common Lisp. 19:51:59 that's by Dershowitz, right? 19:52:03 yes 19:54:26 michaelw: did you ever get to the bottom of that I/O performance thing from last month? 19:55:29 kreuter: sorry no, teaching got in the way. I'll get back to it 19:56:11 ok. did you want that patch to make the initial streams bivalent to go into SBCL? 19:56:35 kretuer: sure, that's good in any case 19:56:46 I thought you said it made things 10x slower. 19:57:03 eh, not that I remember? 19:57:55 okay, 2.5x slower. 19:58:16 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.228.1] has joined #lisp 19:58:33 yeah, but that's against :element-type (unsigned-byte 8) 19:58:44 *michaelw* sneaks in a ' 19:58:54 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-84-147.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:57 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:00:40 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 20:01:02 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.228.1] has quit [Client Quit] 20:01:22 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.228.1] has joined #lisp 20:02:17 Calendrical is/was ONLY is Lisp, IIRC 20:02:34 It's been on my wishlist for years, but I didn't know much about it. 20:02:45 I probably learned about it from comp.lang.lisp 20:03:04 it was in borders, circa 2002 20:03:33 I have a vague memory of rtoym mentioning it. 20:03:38 kreuter: anyway, I'd vote for committing it on the rationale that it adds functionality; improvements can come later 20:04:02 how is the code quality? some "lisp" books are, well, PROGNish at times 20:04:19 *Xach* has still not seen the book, just found a ToC online today 20:04:28 fusss: what's the matter with PROGN? 20:04:50 I prefer (loop repeat 1 do ...) 20:05:28 well, if you're ceating "binding" like (PROGN (SETQ LOCALVAR 0) ..) I probably don't wanna learn Lisp from you :-P 20:05:49 sure, you should say (prog (localvar 0) ...) ;) 20:06:07 Ahhhhhh! 20:06:09 and I thought nobody would out-gross my LOOP :-) 20:06:22 er, (prog ((localvar 0)) ...) 20:06:31 *kreuter* has never actually used prog :( 20:06:35 no, binding 0 to nil is very cool 20:06:42 it reminds me of fortran 20:06:55 kreuter: I've _removed_ PROG from code, does that count? 20:07:05 Krystof: Yeah, f2cl generates it a lot. 20:07:15 sellout: where did you find it? 20:07:16 Look at Maxima for PROG fun. 20:07:53 sellout: I think Krystof's joke was about 0 being an acceptible variable name in Fortran. 20:07:57 -!- antgreen [n=green@bas2-toronto06-1279542688.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:08:07 Oh, heh. Right. 20:08:16 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:09:08 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-84-147.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:10:01 how can I pack a list of 4 (unsigned-byte 8) bytes, in little endian form to an integer with LDB? 20:10:04 ISTR reading once that it was a massive hurdle in the pre-CL days to convince people to split PROG into LET, TAGBODY, and BLOCK. 20:10:18 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-84-147.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 20:10:37 fusss: by using LOGIOR? 20:10:47 well duh! yes, of course 20:11:16 there are many ways 20:11:42 logior is a good one. there's also setf ldb, ash & masking, etc 20:12:29 chandler: technically I don't think it is acceptable. However, Fortran is/was call-by-weird thing 20:12:45 oh, maybe I'm confusing my language jokes then 20:12:56 so a function foo which received a literal 0 as an argument, then assigned the argument to a new value, would make e.g. 0 = 2 20:13:00 debugging fun would ensue 20:13:45 Xach: I have been chasing my tail all day, converting between integers and bitvectors 20:14:40 fusss: i can't say i've used bit vectors yet, but maybe i will some day. 20:14:42 Krystof: it sounds so useful that I wonder why newLISP hasn't adopted it yet 20:15:05 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 20:15:25 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:15:33 If I have several nodes in a list, can I sort them based on one of the fields in the node? If this is the list (("." 0 1 1 1 4 0 4) nil nil ("." 1 2 1 1 4 0 4)), and I want them sorted based on the last column if the node exist. For this case, there are only two nodes existing and both have last column' value as 4, so I want them as (("." 0 1 1 1 4 0 4) ("." 1 2 1 1 4 0 4)) after discarding the nil. 20:15:53 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has quit ["Induhvidual Quote: “There's more than one way to cut the cheese.”"] 20:16:04 Serva: have you looked at the CLHS dictionary entry for SORT? 20:16:36 already checking it 20:17:02 are you familiar with the :KEY keyword argument idiom? 20:17:28 fusss: (parse-integer (print-to-string bit-vector) :start 2 :radix 2) and (read-from-string (format nil "#*~B" integer)) 20:17:57 woah 20:18:03 kreuter, can you give me an example pls 20:18:08 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:17 for the :key 20:18:20 chitech_ [n=khuongdp@0x573a1fb3.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:18:56 clhs sort 20:18:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sort_.htm 20:19:19 while I have your attentions folks. I can has this in format directives? (format t "there is ~a here" (if (something-p) "something" "nothing")) 20:19:41 conditional printing 20:19:43 Serva: look for the word "key" in the CLHS entry. 20:20:12 clhs ~[ 20:20:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgb.htm 20:20:27 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-195-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 20:20:29 (format t "there is ~:[nothing~;something~] here" (something-p)) 20:21:42 Serva: while you're at it, look at the examples in the entry for SORT. 20:24:10 (sort (("." 0 1 1 1 4 0 4) nil nil ("." 1 2 1 1 4 0 4)) #'< :key #'last) - i am doing it wrong 20:24:19 yessir. 20:24:25 do you know what LAST does? 20:24:59 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:25:05 looks like nothing. 20:25:19 nah, that's (lambda () (values)) 20:25:26 i thought, probably it would work because of the "first" 20:25:31 "second' and so on 20:25:32 clhs last 20:25:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_last.htm 20:26:27 almost similar way, as I thought it should work 20:26:45 right. it's a strange name. 20:27:06 younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:27:17 until you note that it takes an optional integer argument, at least 20:27:44 but I want the very last one 20:27:52 it's the opposite of butlast! :) 20:28:03 so, um, it's giving you a list. 20:28:05 Any LiveJournal users here with any questions I should ask Brad Fitzpatrick when I interview him next week? 20:28:13 oh! 20:28:31 gigamonkey: he ain't been livejournally for a long time 20:28:41 gigamonkey: and he complains about how people ask him about it :) 20:28:43 Xach: sure. But he wrote it, no? 20:28:51 yeah. 20:29:18 *rvirding* says good evening everyone 20:29:54 Serva: if you're new to SORT you should keep in mind that it's destructive. If you do (sort *my-list* #'whatever) and then do (sort *my-list* #'something-else) you'll likely get screwy results because *my-list* was destroyed during the first SORT. 20:30:08 rvirding: good evening-8 :) 20:30:23 gigamonkey: i guess it would be interesting to contrast the tools he had to use or invent to work with the constraints he faced back when livejournal began vs. the hardware & software & knowledge environment for large scale projects today. 20:30:41 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279776314.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:30:54 gigamonkey, how do I avoid that 20:31:35 Do I have to implement a function for this functionality 20:31:45 Serva: Are you using a book in your class? 20:32:01 for Lisp, you mean? 20:32:03 yes 20:32:05 No 20:32:13 It's an AI course 20:32:24 So, how are they teaching you Lisp? 20:32:33 -!- JHVH is now known as Jarvellis 20:32:38 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 20:32:47 Serva: Just always do (setf *my-list* (sort *my-list* ...)) 20:32:49 It's "assumed" that lisp is learnable because of its intuitive nature 20:33:00 It helps to read a book. 20:33:09 maybe it's assumed that lisp is learnable by simple resource to the written word? 20:33:11 We read the book on our own 20:33:17 by people who are allegedly sophisticated undergraduates? 20:33:28 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:31 which book? 20:33:35 PAIP 20:33:36 who have spent the last $n$ years practicing how to learn? 20:33:55 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:34:00 Hey Krystof! Get that manky shell scripting out of #lisp! ;-) 20:34:20 gigamonkey: boo. 20:34:33 Didn't you interview Knuth? 20:34:44 uh, latex 20:34:45 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit ["HULK ANGRY! HULK DISCONNECT!"] 20:34:57 Xach: er, yeah. 20:35:01 Good point. 20:35:26 I am back again at the question. How do I sort based on last field in the list 20:36:01 Pass a function via the :key parameter that extracts the last element. 20:36:02 write a function that extracts the last field in a list 20:36:18 write a function that compares those fields according to how you want them sorted 20:36:19 ah, I can try that! 20:36:22 combine in the obvious way 20:36:55 just the function to extract last element is needed, coz < is well defined for my integers 20:37:23 "think about it for a moment and decide your data structures are not particularly suited for the job"? 20:37:56 -!- nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:08 nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:11 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:38:30 antgreen [n=green@74.210.122.58] has joined #lisp 20:43:18 -!- nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:43:32 nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:11 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:47:02 -!- chitech_ [n=khuongdp@0x573a1fb3.svgnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:47:07 (sort (("." 0 1 1 1 4 0 4) nil nil ("." 1 2 1 1 4 0 4)) #'< :key #'last-element), where last-element is my func name? 20:47:41 there are two things wrong with that 20:48:04 if you try running it, you will see one of them immediately, and the second once you fix the first problem 20:48:16 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:48:23 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:48:26 it is giving me no. of arg error 20:49:13 Serva, hint: ' 20:49:28 another hint: copy-tree 20:49:51 something wrong in modifying literals? 20:49:57 s/in/with 20:50:28 tic: if you like nasal demons, no 20:50:37 (sort tester #'> :key #'car) => ((7 8 9) (4 5 6) (1 2 3)) .. this works from the book 20:50:38 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:50:39 adeht, very well then! 20:51:04 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:51:57 Serva: I don't think this is the best way to learn Lisp. 20:52:21 minion, tell Serva about that-dead-sexy-book 20:52:22 Serva: please see that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 20:52:32 Highly recommended. 20:52:50 PAIP is also a very good book. 20:52:59 I don't think the problem for Serva is a lack of a good book from which to learn. 20:53:52 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:54:59 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 20:56:35 jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:46 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 20:58:39 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0D6BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:08 I was reading both books together, highly recommended combination to learn Lisp IMHO. 20:59:16 http://l1sp.org/pcl/sort 20:59:38 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-216.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:00:13 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E458AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:01:40 sicp should definately be mentioned 21:02:34 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E458AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:45 My first lisp-type experience was with sicp. It was awesome. 21:03:06 Don't use scheme at all now though. Just common lisp. 21:03:12 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F753.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:03:18 -!- H4ns2 is now known as h4ns 21:03:24 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:24 -!- h4ns is now known as H4ns 21:03:32 Serva [n=Serva@dilip.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 21:04:33 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:05:35 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:05:56 -!- nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:06:08 nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:45 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:06:57 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:08:00 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 21:08:00 WeYu [n=user@hoasnet-fe35dd00-144.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:09:55 i dont think sicp has a lot to do with lisp 21:10:18 its more about the essence of programming 21:11:48 Fair enough. But languages without first class functions always seemed clumsy, post-sicp. 21:11:51 i hope people here do not hate me now, but i think asking here and in c.l.l. is essential in learning lisp, because sometimes one does not know what one did not understand... 21:14:09 trebor_win: I agree. I learn a lot for asking questions. Trying to understand things alone first is really important, though. 21:15:19 gigamonkey, i am sorry but i am still lost in no. of arg. error 21:15:21 Finite Markov chain processes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_state_machine 21:15:26 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:15:33 i remember, when i was told to stop thinking the way i did ;) 21:15:58 trebor_win: that was essential to my lisp learning experience, as well (: 21:16:06 Serva: how many arguments does SORT take? 21:16:14 -!- nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:16:21 *gigamonkey* gets Socratic. 21:16:29 nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:40 3 21:16:46 eh? 21:16:56 list predicate key 21:17:25 Serva: how many normal arguments? 21:17:30 And how do you provide the key argument? 21:17:35 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 21:17:37 list predicate 21:17:52 :key 21:18:07 Now look at your failing call to SORT. 21:18:16 How many arguments did you provide? 21:18:31 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:19:02 are you considering :key as well, then 4 21:19:08 Look again. 21:19:21 list predicate :key key 21:19:28 jazen3 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has joined #lisp 21:19:38 Now look at your actual call to SORT that is failing. Did you provide all of those? 21:19:40 fusss pasted "todo: variable len frame-size rects." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68521 21:20:56 that almost parses an swf header :-/ 21:21:06 Actually, never mind. I think you have a different problem. Though I don't know why Lisp would be complaining about number of arguments. 21:21:25 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:50 gratuitous use of LDB 21:21:51 Serva pasted "last-element" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68522 21:22:11 this is my last-element version that i am using in sort 21:23:16 You presumably meant to recurse in the T branch. 21:23:33 Anyway, just write it like this (defun last-element (list) (first (last list))) 21:23:49 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:50 fusss: Have you looked at the binary parsing stuff in PCL? 21:24:07 ahaas: i'm resisting literature at the moment :-P 21:24:18 do first, read/think/learn later 21:24:24 fusss: Good luck with that. 21:24:38 Serva: what do you want to do? do you want to sort a list of lists according to their last element? 21:24:48 fusss: You really shouldn't. I've written binary parsing code a bunch of times in different languages and that stuff in PCL is the only time I enjoyed it. 21:24:53 trebor_win, yes 21:24:55 fusss: your LDB'ing looks wrong (says me without knowing the first thing about SWF) 21:25:02 gigamonkey, the recursion version also works 21:25:14 Sure, but why make it harier than it needs to be. 21:25:26 i agree 21:25:39 example: (sort (list (list 1 2 3) (list 2 4 5) (list 3 4 5)) #'> :key #'second) 21:25:40 learning is hairy 21:25:40 fusss: I have code that parses the swf, based on gigamonkey's chapter, but I'm getting that you're in it for the learning experience. 21:25:45 michaelw: yeah, I pasted an old version from my emacs kill-buffer. the new version does The Right Thing (i.e. I didn't write it yet ;-) 21:26:35 it's actually a fairly interesting problem 21:26:43 trebor_win, second returns an element but last does not 21:26:49 and that's the problem in hand 21:27:19 fusss: Let me know how you deal with decompressing the payload and parsing that. That's the worst part of my code. 21:27:23 (sort (list (list 1 2 3) (list 2 4 5) (list 3 4 5)) #'> :key (lambda (a) (first (last a)))) 21:28:35 read 5 bits presenting an int between 0-32, let's call it N. read four bytes, each N-bits long :-) 21:28:40 my list is of this type .... (("." 0 1 1 1 4 0 4) nil nil ("." 1 2 1 1 4 0 4)) 21:28:59 nothing is said of padding or discarding the left-over bits; they're simple overflown to the rest of the file. 21:29:13 how do you use #'> on nil? you need to writ your own predicate. 21:29:14 -!- vasa [n=vasa@93.84.244.2] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:29:31 omg! that's the problem then 21:30:22 maybe you better filter out things/lists which will not be needed (can not be sorted) and sort the rest. 21:30:55 fusss: I don't know what you mean by left-over bits. Everything is either variable length or any unused bits are mentioned in the spec. 21:30:57 hint hin, comparison functions take two arguments, and in your case you're testing BOTH to see if either or both are NIL 21:31:11 (("." 0 1 1 1 4 0 4) ("." 1 2 1 1 4 0 4)) .. does not work on this list too 21:32:10 flumpie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:12 i used (list ....) to generate lists. 21:32:28 Doesn't < take numbers? 21:32:51 Or >, whichever. 21:33:00 Serva: because (( ...) (...) ... (..) ) will be evaluated 21:33:21 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 21:33:21 Serva: that means the first element is treated as a function-name 21:33:28 Serva: which it is not. 21:34:07 so you have to ESCAPE evaluation 21:34:33 tried with '((..) (..)) 21:34:42 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:35:12 Serva: but '(...) generates a /constant/ like in c char *s = "hello"; 21:35:50 Serva: you need data which can be changed, therefore i used (list ...). 21:37:06 Serva: ok, it is not you who needs changeable data, it is sort, because sort is working in a way that it changes (affects) its arguments because of efficiency. 21:37:55 I am getting your point 21:38:00 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0D6BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:21 adicarlo [i=adam@66-234-56-82.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:58 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:14 *sladegen* proposes new programming language iLisp ... it's so intuitive! (damn, taken by silly GUI interface) 21:39:38 -!- Jasko2 is now known as Jasko 21:40:40 I bet this was very funny 5 years ago (: 21:41:59 Serva: what will you do now to solve your problem? 21:42:15 -!- flumpie is now known as Fufie 21:42:48 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:30 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:51 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:44:01 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D6BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:44:35 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:45:02 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:45:08 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 21:46:22 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:47:15 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-119-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:03 isn't ilisp the lisp mode for emacs? 21:48:23 it hasn't been for years 21:48:34 slime is what I recommend 21:48:56 yes, but emacs is UUI.. 21:49:19 -!- FufieToo [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:50:00 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:50:22 minion: what does uui stand for? 21:50:23 Untinted Unemptied Involvent 21:50:53 Involvent, indeed. 21:51:00 Rubbish. 21:51:21 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:23 is that like entangletint? 21:51:38 firefox :-/ 21:51:47 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:52:50 Quoth the OED: A. adj. Involving. rare{em}0. B. n. That which involves. 21:52:50 1656 BLOUNT Glossogr., Involvent, wrapping or folding in, covering or overwhelming. a1834 COLERIDGE Lit. Rem. (1839) IV. 227 The one substrative truth which is the form, manner, and involvent of all truths. 21:55:16 -!- jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:56:45 minion: what is uui? 21:56:46 what would a bot like me know about uui ? 21:57:08 minion: what does uui stand for? 21:57:08 Unmarketed Unscratchable Isostasy 21:57:09 -!- trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:57:36 minion: chant 21:57:37 MORE ABOUT THE ESSENCE 21:59:32 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 21:59:40 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-179-46-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:28 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:56 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:04:14 -!- Paraselene__ [n=None@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:04:47 anyone german here who can help me? 22:07:39 if yes, please join #lisp.de 22:07:49 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:10:02 -!- mimies is now known as spiderbyte 22:10:04 O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-122-148.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:10:13 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:10:18 -!- WeYu [n=user@hoasnet-fe35dd00-144.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit ["Client exiting"] 22:10:38 do we have a right-shift function for bits? ash goes left 22:11:01 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-232.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 22:11:14 supply negative argument 22:11:15 fusss: ash goes both ways. 22:11:17 ash with negative number for right shift ^_^ 22:11:28 just noticed it in the HS 22:11:35 -!- jazen3 [n=blah@77.20.240.183] has quit [] 22:12:20 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:15:06 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-155-193-182.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:16:25 dalton [n=id@201-1-114-117.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:16:44 Jabberwo_ [n=jens@dslb-082-083-092-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:53 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-96-28.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:20 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 22:20:34 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone!"] 22:20:40 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-119-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:12 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 22:23:30 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:25:15 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 22:25:20 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:25:38 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 22:25:59 l4ndfo_ [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:31:12 jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:56 dae jao 22:32:14 -!- l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:32:44 ausente, dae? 22:33:29 jao: s 22:34:36 jao where are u f? 22:34:56 barcelona 22:35:11 -!- gmlk [n=gmlk@alicia.demon.nl] has quit [] 22:35:55 sou do brasil 22:36:15 -!- ausente is now known as dalton 22:38:59 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:43:24 Spune [n=Spune@c-69-137-224-211.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:01 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:28 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:44:45 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 22:46:14 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:52:48 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit ["leaving"] 22:53:03 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@v113243.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:43 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 22:57:43 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:59:23 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 22:59:55 -!- silenius [n=jl@e178005058.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:00:40 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:02:25 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:04:08 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:05:13 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.228.1] has quit [] 23:06:22 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:08:01 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["go Canada!"] 23:08:36 -!- brandelune [n=JC@pl323.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:10:18 -!- petere_ [n=peter@209-6-234-57.c3-0.sbo-ubr3.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:18 -!- sqvirt [n=sqvirt@c-24-16-244-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:10:50 petere [n=peter@209-6-234-57.c3-0.sbo-ubr3.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:06 -!- spiderbyte is now known as short-break-mode 23:12:21 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:30 -!- short-break-mode is now known as break-mode 23:21:10 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:38 ddsmith [n=ddsmith@12.6.239.179] has joined #lisp 23:24:24 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:24:40 -!- O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-122-148.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 23:25:23 -!- antgreen [n=green@74.210.122.58] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:27:27 Pb [n=Pb@75.131.206.22] has joined #lisp 23:27:33 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:33 -!- Jabberwo_ [n=jens@dslb-082-083-092-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:40 ttessier [n=chatzill@d38-8-216.commercial1.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:47 if I learn emacs-lisp before common lisp will that prevent me from acheiving satori? 23:28:52 satori? 23:28:58 Probably yes. 23:29:07 really? dang 23:29:09 <_3b> hmm, i thought scieneer was one of the really expensive lisps 23:29:11 Dynamically scoped Lisps are demon spawn. 23:29:33 by satori I meant "that moment of grokking lisp and acheiving lambda-nature" 23:30:20 Pb: that is not worse than learning java or c++ before common lisp 23:30:23 *_3b* will have to try it out at some point 23:31:01 *stassats`* recently downloaded free trial version of scieneer cl 23:31:10 <_3b> doesn't seem to have a windows version though, thats no fun 23:31:16 looks like cmucl with various additions 23:31:26 <_3b> yeah, that was my understanding 23:32:38 Pb: it helps to think of them as different languages. (that applies for any languages you learned before) 23:32:47 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-84-147.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:33:17 Xach: that's why I'm concerned, EL and CL are so similar, it'd be hard to think of them as two different languages, at least subconsciously 23:33:31 which is exactly why I'm thinking too hard about this 23:33:56 Pb: they are superficially similar. 23:33:57 learn both at the same time 23:34:10 Pb: in practice they are very, very different. 23:34:33 emacs is an improbable environment for writing code that isn't about emacsing. 23:34:35 I don't have time right now, I'll have to wait until the semester is over to focus on learning CL 23:34:38 <_3b> probably no worse than learning 2 C-like languages 23:34:55 ah, alright then 23:35:10 Pb: emacs lisp is the best language available for extending and customizing emacs, which i find to be a handy activity. 23:35:23 Pb: common lisp is a nice general purpose language. 23:35:52 I know that, just was thinking about learning emacs lisp now to play around with emacs, then move on to common lisp later when I have time 23:35:55 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 23:36:07 -!- ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:07 might as well just do that, thanks guys 23:36:30 Pb: it's not too harmful if you don't try constantly to mentally translate what you know already about emacs lisp into what you are learning of common lisp. 23:36:45 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:36:45 (it works the other way too) 23:36:49 that's exactly what I'm afriad I'll be doing 23:37:03 It's easier to avoid things if you're aware of them. 23:37:09 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone, gtg"] 23:37:58 that's true 23:37:58 *stassats`* never learned emacs lisp, just looked in the manual when unsuccessfully trying to apply common lisp practices 23:38:15 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 23:38:18 hehe 23:39:25 -!- ttessier [n=chatzill@d38-8-216.commercial1.cgocable.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:40:51 cadabra [n=cadabra@rs-69-169-136-43-0003.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:58 while is the only control flow macro you ever need 23:41:45 S11001001 while my guitar gently wheeps 23:41:53 there is loop in cl module! 23:42:48 benny [n=benny@i577A1B3D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:43:37 tail-end recursion is the only control flow device you'll ever need 23:43:43 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:53 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:48 s-k combinators are all you need 23:45:13 SUBTRACT-ONE-AND-JUMP-IF-ZERO is all you need 23:45:28 except that none of yours were chosen for elisp, it was while 23:45:32 victory is sweet 23:45:50 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:46:35 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has joined #lisp 23:47:28 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has left #lisp 23:51:12 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:53:10 Aszarsha [n=Miranda@dsl-67-204-19-122.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:05 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has quit [] 23:57:56 -!- petere [n=peter@209-6-234-57.c3-0.sbo-ubr3.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit []