00:00:10 envi^laptop [n=envi@61.78.108.74] has joined #lisp 00:00:56 -!- froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:01:54 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-27-65.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:02:46 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:04:56 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:06:17 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:37 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:09:00 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:10:32 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:56 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-dd6afc120505ab54] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:13:34 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:22 *Xach* tries to muster the energy to hack, fails miserably :( 00:17:27 hackfizzle 00:17:28 Xach: are you into US politics at all? 00:17:49 Xach: lemonodor fame is just a hack away! 00:18:05 If so, maybe you can make a Lisp version of this: http://www.xkcd.com/intrade/ 00:18:27 Since there's code (in Python), it should be an easy hacking warmup. 00:18:52 -!- syamajala2_ [n=syamajal@140.232.182.214] has quit [] 00:18:59 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E450ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 00:19:03 oh, i've got a juicy hacking tree with low hanging fruit all over it 00:19:23 And you're reduced to lying on the ground waiting for something to fall in your mouth? 00:19:35 *Xach* got crosseyed reading bedtime stories, has not yet recovered focus 00:19:41 Any good ones? 00:19:58 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.182.214] has joined #lisp 00:21:07 some old little golden book compilations this time. the downside of having 10 books back to back in one volume is trying to say "ok, that's the end" until it's really the end. 00:21:16 i guess i should have started somewhere past the middle. 00:21:32 Thank god you weren't reading stories off the web! 00:22:27 hi guys, i've an idea about software engineering, in the past, we had multi architectures (of CPUs), now we will have multi languages (lisp, python, ocaml, eiffel, java, c, ...) 00:23:26 the idea is to create compiled programs write in some of those languages 00:23:33 /write/written/ 00:25:44 and to have a good deployment of those programs 00:26:03 Xach: i used to love those little golden books! good choice :) 00:26:25 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-136-40.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:28:24 *Xach* might try w. richard stevens or norvig next 00:28:52 *gigamonkey* needs to get cracking on a Lisp book for the sippy-cup set. 00:29:52 drewc, are you also in charge of trac.common-lisp.net? 00:30:01 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:30:02 "No Goodnight Moon tonight, son..." 00:30:10 b4|hraban: i might be :( 00:30:18 b4|hraban: what's wrong? 00:30:21 because it's been offline for a few hours 00:30:34 I'm guessing the VHost configuration is a little messed up 00:30:42 offline .. that sounds much easier than patching cvs! 00:31:17 well it's not "offline", it's just that http://common-lisp.net also catches http://trac.common-lisp.net 00:31:33 so you never reach trac 00:32:53 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:33:23 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 00:33:25 yay back online 00:33:51 yup, got it. 00:35:25 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:35:45 -!- jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:38:22 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:38:26 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.76] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:41:09 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:52 OK, so I'm trying to get weblocks working, but I have to do things like (push #p"/home/hraban/clbuild/source/weblocks" asdf:*central-registry*) every time but also for every dependency of weblocks 00:42:05 -!- xristos [n=xristos@93-97-209-126.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:16 I couldn't really find an answer to this on the FAQ, it's probably too basic, but is there something like python's sys.path? :) 00:42:23 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.182.214] has quit [] 00:43:00 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:46 b4|hraban: what does sys.path do? 00:44:27 b4|hraban: one traditional way to manage asdf system files dependencies is using symlinks 00:44:30 ehh well it's like the environment variable PATH: when you do "import foo" in python, it checks every directory in that list for a file called foo.py 00:44:45 b4|hraban: if you have one directory foo in the central registry, you can symlink all the system files into it 00:44:55 I see a lot of symlinks in /home/hraban/clbuild/systems 00:44:59 b4|hraban: or you could put the additions to *central-registry* in your startup file so it gets set every time 00:45:00 to all the packages, 00:45:20 ahh so I can put that dir in the central registry? 00:45:24 b4|hraban: so put that in your *central-registry* and you should get them all 00:45:25 yeah 00:45:31 michaelw: Around? 00:45:34 awesome, Ill try it out 00:45:36 thanks 00:45:51 b4|hraban: ~/.sbcl/systems/ is automatically in the central registry under sbcl. you can also symlink stuff into there. 00:46:14 ah, interesting :) 00:47:36 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:48:24 antifuchs: so does this mean the physical manifestation of lemonodor.com is no longer in austria? 00:48:37 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:47 w00t, well that works... unfortunately, there is apparently yet another dependency issue -_- 00:48:54 (saw your comment on Oblomovka) 00:49:14 *``Erik* waits for sbcl's fbsd threading to not be experimental... not gonna hold breath O:-) 00:50:16 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 00:50:45 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:28 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 *ugh*! well, that's that... apparently there is some package in there that absolutely needs "metatilities 0.6.6", so the latest darcs checkout is a no-go. http://pastebin.com/d71a6e1d6 00:54:00 lisppaste: url? 00:54:00 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 00:54:27 b4|hraban: if you paste there, it'll be a lot more readable 00:54:38 and plus, you won't have to copy and paste the URL 00:54:42 chandler, I would be honestly surprised 00:54:56 let's see.. 00:55:16 oh wow, captchas. 00:55:40 thanks for the link, I'll remember it for lisp code posts 00:55:53 did you try downloading the tarball at http://www.cliki.net/metatilities-base ? 00:56:12 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A2517E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 00:56:21 alternatively, change cl-containers' system definition to be a bit less picky 00:56:31 ok, I will try both, thanks :) 00:56:49 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.81.206] has joined #lisp 00:57:14 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:59:03 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:40 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 01:03:08 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:19 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 01:05:22 chandler, hey, thanks for your suggestion :) I think I'm finally getting the idea of how asdf:*central-registry* works! 01:05:29 I even installed a package :) 01:07:12 Cool. 01:08:30 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:08:53 To answer your original question, if you want to add all subdirectories of the current directory which contain an .asd file to asdf:*central-registry*, you could do something like this: 01:10:14 chandler pasted "add subdirectories containing asd files to asdf:*central-registry*" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68231 01:10:22 (warning, untested!) 01:11:29 ok, nice 01:11:30 thanks :) 01:11:43 hmm econnrefused for some reason from here 01:12:05 phadthai: can you get to www.common-lisp.net? 01:12:14 weblocks is up and running. victory! thanks for all your patience, everybody :) 01:12:16 your DNS may be lagging; common-lisp.net was moved to new hosting today 01:12:22 b4|hraban: no problem! 01:12:28 chandler: same 01:12:37 ah very possibly then 01:12:56 new changes may sometimes take up to 72hrs to propagate everywhere 01:12:58 (phadthai: nslookup common-lisp.net, if you want to know :P) 01:13:12 (also depends on previous ttl of course) 01:13:45 --- (pts/4) mmondor@sat.xisop $ host common-lisp.net 01:13:46 common-lisp.net has address 80.68.86.115 01:13:50 Yes. I've noticed that many stock bind configurations seem to have TTLs far larger than you'd want them to be when you actually have to update a record :-) 01:13:55 That's the old host. 01:14:09 ok, I'll be patient :) 01:16:38 phadthai, # echo 208.72.159.207 common-lisp.net trac.common-lisp.net >> /etc/hosts 01:16:42 :) ? 01:17:31 not worth it, I run my own bind here anyway if it was that urgent heh 01:17:53 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@202-161-17-217.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:18:58 thanks for the new address still though :) 01:20:22 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:22:38 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.179.39] has joined #lisp 01:22:54 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.179.39] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:27:06 soverton [n=user@adsl-19-153-42.jan.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:46 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:30:23 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:06 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@124-171-93-244.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:31:07 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:32:09 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:35:24 -!- ths_ [n=ths@p549AF225.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:39:20 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:40:18 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-243-136.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 01:44:01 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.125.147.185] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:44:52 aiur [n=Jan@218.109.75.115] has joined #lisp 01:51:08 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:19 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.10] has joined #lisp 01:59:26 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:41 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:09 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-78-191.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:46 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:10:29 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:11:39 sudoer [n=jtoy@58.61.213.234] has joined #lisp 02:11:58 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-58-55.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:12:25 -!- chumsley [n=user@dsl-207-112-93-37.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:12:27 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-179-47-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:48 soverton` [n=user@adsl-147-231-154.jan.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:06 -!- soverton` [n=user@adsl-147-231-154.jan.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:14:11 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:15:13 -!- lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:15:44 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-188-161-219.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:16:11 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-151-163.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:41 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:17:32 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:18:36 birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 02:21:49 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-151-163.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:22:01 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:24:31 spiderbyte7 [n=spiderby@h52.250.31.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:01 fwiiw: I documented the process to save the next guy the trouble: https://0brg.net/~hraban/blog/2008/a-laymans-guide-to-weblocks 02:26:30 -!- spiderbyte7 [n=spiderby@h52.250.31.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:26:42 spiderbyte7 [n=spiderby@h52.250.31.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:59 b4|hraban: If there's stuff about weblocks on Cliki you should add a link. 02:27:31 oh.. there's a link to the weblocks page on common-lisp.net 02:27:38 should I change that to the page on cliki? 02:27:53 minion: weblocks? 02:27:54 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``weblocks''. 02:28:14 minion: cl-weblocks 02:28:15 cl-weblocks: cl-weblocks is a web framework written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-weblocks 02:28:26 haha thanks b4.hraban same situation, same book :P 02:28:42 -!- spiderbyte7 [n=spiderby@h52.250.31.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:28:46 b4|hraban: you should add link to your post to the above cliki page 02:28:49 bighouse, :D 02:28:56 b4|hraban: Just add some text to the cliki page saying, here's a tutorial on setting up weblocks. And link to you thing. 02:29:08 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.81.206] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:29:11 gigamonk`, ah, ok, I get what you mean 02:29:34 -!- soverton [n=user@adsl-19-153-42.jan.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:30:08 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has joined #lisp 02:31:01 Achtzehn [i=Achtzehn@vierge.student.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 02:31:20 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:34:21 yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has joined #lisp 02:34:39 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:35:10 -!- spiderbyte [n=spiderby@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:35:38 good morning 02:38:49 morning. 02:38:53 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 02:42:45 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-28-104.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:44 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-58-55.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 02:47:14 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-58-55.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:48:31 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:49:55 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 02:51:47 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-78-191.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:51:56 -!- Achtzehn [i=Achtzehn@vierge.student.umd.edu] has quit [] 03:05:54 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.10] has left #lisp 03:06:04 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.10] has joined #lisp 03:06:25 what if I wanted to mapcar something, but pass two arguments to the lambda? 03:06:31 or equivalent action 03:06:48 fisxoj: pass two lists to mapcar 03:06:52 clhs mapcar 03:06:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 03:07:11 (mapcar #'(lambda (a b) (format t "~a ~a")) list-a list-b) 03:07:40 what if the second argument is the same every time? 03:07:52 use a loop 03:08:06 imo 03:08:18 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 03:08:39 Or a closure. 03:08:41 fisxoj: or create the second list using make-list 03:09:10 (mapcar #'(lambda (a) (actual-function a constant-value)) list) 03:09:12 *sykopomp* is glad he tossed the 'imo' in there before the expected stream of every other way to do one thing. 03:09:28 *gigamonkey`* would actually probably use LOOP 03:10:13 sykopomp: but your format has no arguments 03:10:20 (mapcar (rcurry (lambda (a b) ...) constant-value) list) 03:10:22 oops >_> 03:10:26 durr hurr :( 03:15:39 fisxoj: Where does the function you use to call mapcar come from? I mean, if it is a "lambda", then just write that lambda differently. 03:16:56 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:09 clhs rcurry 03:17:10 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for rcurry. 03:17:22 hmm, so, what does rcurry do? 03:17:33 wikipedia cerrying 03:17:35 err 03:17:36 it curries its argument 03:17:38 currying >_> 03:17:42 OK, time to sleep. Thanks again for your help. Bye. 03:17:45 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["dodo"] 03:17:49 curry, tasty 03:17:58 ooo, that sounds nice 03:18:24 fisxoj: It's in alexandria IIRC. 03:18:30 minion: alexandria? 03:18:31 alexandria: Shhh -- it's a secret! http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 03:18:31 fisxoj: rcurry is not in the Common Lisp HyperSpec 03:18:38 hi, does anyone have problem running more than one lisp implementation with slime at the same time? 03:19:01 yangsx: it's probably not a common usage mode but it is in theory possible. 03:19:02 beach: what does that mean? 03:19:19 fisxoj: what does _what_ mean? 03:19:22 oudeis__ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-35-62.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:09 yangsx: i have no problems with recent slime 03:20:25 gigamonkey`: I often run in that mode and actions are uniformly sent to the last running lisp implementation 03:20:25 fisxoj: Do you mean "currying"? It means taking a function with n parameters, supplying m < n of them and returning a function that takes n - m arguments. 03:20:50 fisxoj: the HyperSpec is the big sexy reference to the Common Lisp specification. When something isn't in the HyperSpec, it means it's not in the specification for Common Lisp, so you'll either find it in libraries, or in implementation-specific stuff. 03:20:53 stassats: good to know, but not with me 03:20:54 yangsx: there is default connection 03:21:30 beach: you break my brain with basic arithmetic. I cannot comprehend it :( 03:21:52 you can select one with C-c C-x c 03:22:02 stassats: for instance, I run both sbcl and clojure with slime, and my problem arises 03:22:08 sykopomp: sorry about that. 03:22:10 stassats: I'll try that 03:22:15 :( 03:22:45 Does clojure work with SLIME at all? 03:23:35 there is swank-clojure 03:24:40 Ah. 03:24:53 I never try both scheme and CL, and don't know whether there is such a problem or not. 03:28:04 I use slime with multiple lisps on occasion. Sometimes the same lisp, but different versions. No problems except that sometimes I forget which lisp gets the result of C-c C-c. 03:28:30 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 03:31:29 Is Drakma is the up-to-date way to do simple HTTP client stuff? 03:31:32 it should be possible to hack slime to automatically distinguish between sbcl and clojure, they use different file types for sources 03:32:40 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-79.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 03:32:43 stassats: C-c C-x c is slime-list-connections, seems to be not what I want 03:32:49 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:33:26 gigamonkey`: drakma is great 03:35:29 yangsx: and what do you want? 03:35:40 stassats: thanks, press d in that connections buffer change the default 03:36:36 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-28-104.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:35 it would be great for slime to associate files with different extensions to different connections 03:39:47 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:40:12 and CL and Clojure have different mode names 03:43:50 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54ABDA09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:44:30 xbxb [n=xb@p54ABEC15.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:58 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:06 So is there an easy way to get Drakma to strip out the carridge-returns in the body text it gets? 04:06:56 danieltellez [n=d_tellez@h-67-101-84-27.lsanca54.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:04 hey whos there 04:07:10 who wants to chat 04:07:21 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@58.61.213.234] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:07:32 Im waiting people 04:07:35 you could apply some cl-ppcre to the result, gigamonkey` 04:07:37 come on 04:07:59 ill give you a dollar 04:08:04 please 04:08:08 om lonely 04:08:20 i need someone to talk to please answer me 04:08:27 im awesome i swear 04:08:40 screw you guys then im out 04:08:48 lnostdal: yeah. Or just loop through and lop out all the #\Returns. 04:09:01 do you not listen to me 04:09:07 im right here 04:09:09 damn 04:09:11 haters 04:10:17 Has anyoone written a library to do parse-float or is READ-FROM-STRING still the way to go? 04:10:58 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:11:36 minion: parse-number? 04:11:37 parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 04:13:18 drakej [n=drakej@208.79.15.100] has joined #lisp 04:14:19 -!- drakej [n=drakej@208.79.15.100] has left #lisp 04:15:24 hey bastards http://lukego.livejournal.com/16036.html could potentially host a LispOS :) 04:16:12 s/bastards/friends/ :) 04:16:28 cool 04:17:11 *rme* digs out his XO 04:17:42 rudi [n=rudi@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/rudi] has joined #lisp 04:17:44 git-svn is not giving me much love 04:18:01 git-svn is a harsh mistress 04:19:26 -!- aiur [n=Jan@218.109.75.115] has quit [Client Quit] 04:23:42 aiur [n=Jan@218.109.75.115] has joined #lisp 04:24:28 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 04:30:12 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:30:24 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 04:30:55 gigamonkey`: I did one to parse simply-formatted floats (no type specifier; scientific notation) to rationals. 04:31:06 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-126-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 04:31:43 isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:32:30 http://ely.ath.cx/~piranha/etc/cl-exact-float-20081003.tar.gz 04:33:38 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 04:36:47 Is it possible or reasonable to use Gray Streams with non-octet, non-character element types? 04:37:57 I wrote some utility class that wrapped rsm.queue, providing synchronized operations for concurrent access. As I think about bolting usocket and cl-store onto it for network support, I can't help but think that it's really a stream and should be modelled as such. 04:37:59 dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 04:38:44 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:38:50 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:40:41 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:40:47 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:40:54 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 04:42:14 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-58-55.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 04:46:31 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:48:14 -!- danieltellez is now known as Hotchick 04:48:22 who wants to chat 04:48:31 I do I do. 04:48:34 im beggin please 04:48:34 Xach does too 04:51:33 then lets chat 04:51:41 i already started 04:51:52 you dont want to though 04:52:29 Hotchick: If you're going to use a nick like that, then a photograph of the lambda tattoo is required. 04:52:32 Otherwise... 04:53:41 whats a lambda tatoo 04:53:47 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:54:39 hey 04:54:48 im askin a question 04:55:09 :( 04:56:44 who wants to chat 04:56:55 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:57:19 please im lonely 04:58:24 Go away (oh, and learn to type). 04:58:35 why go away 04:58:52 how do i not know how to type 04:58:57 loser 05:00:22 you guys are lame 05:00:38 -!- Hotchick [n=d_tellez@h-67-101-84-27.lsanca54.dynamic.covad.net] has left #lisp 05:02:30 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-27-159.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 05:08:40 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:09:42 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:11:07 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:13:28 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:17:02 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:39 jgracin [n=jgracin@89-172-61-82.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 05:24:32 lukego: very cool! i find the particle/field comparison on the STEPS link particularly apt. 05:24:50 *drewc* looks anew at his olpc 05:28:44 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #lisp 05:32:01 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:32:30 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 05:36:18 -!- gmlk [n=gmlk@alicia.demon.nl] has quit [] 05:36:19 spacebat [n=akhasha@124-171-107-126.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:38:00 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:39:19 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:43:13 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@202-161-17-217.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:50:00 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:13 -!- mozzyb [n=mozzyb@135.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:06:53 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 06:09:46 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-154-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:15:07 good morning 06:19:58 *lukego* is happy about the "looks anew" comments, really what I was thinking when targetting the XO is that people need to find some use for the suckers :) 06:20:50 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:21:06 hello lispers 06:21:08 hello kiuma 06:22:20 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 06:22:23 -!- Jarvellis is now known as rodo 06:22:40 -!- rodo is now known as Jarvellis 06:28:38 -!- Jarvellis is now known as JHVH 06:29:10 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-154-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:11 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 06:32:16 I wonder what people think of picolisp 06:32:56 which seems to be radically simple and dynamic, the guy says he was inspired by FORTH 06:33:37 purely interpreted, everything is mutable all the time 06:34:00 but I don't know enough lisp to know if he's on crack 06:34:12 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-084-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:13 :) 06:37:56 url? 06:39:11 there's a simple test 06:39:17 http://software-lab.de/down.html 06:39:18 :) 06:39:20 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-153-143.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:46 first: is there only one false value? (if not, madness) 06:39:53 second: is there a straightforward way to alter the false value? (if yes, madness) 06:41:04 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 06:41:14 hmm 06:41:19 I think it passes those 06:43:07 seriously, every programming language designer ever, *there is only one false value* 06:43:19 S11001001, you meant within the language itself (i.e. modify nil). 06:44:01 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 06:44:18 JuanDaugherty: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/d74bbc613fb64bac# 06:44:53 that's for #1 06:45:40 .oO(hmm, has goozle taken over newsgroups too?) 06:45:44 sorry, that's for #2 06:45:52 as for #1, I could go on about that for a while 06:45:57 don't 06:46:00 indeed 06:46:19 but #2 seems a new kind of madness in over-dynamism 06:47:28 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-084-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:47:33 espeially since both are in essence antithetical to the lisp ethos which mandates that you be able to change anything 06:47:49 I've noticed that rep prints nil as (), which is valid of course, but seems odd 06:47:56 rep as in librep 06:48:06 spacebat: you can have that in CL, too 06:48:18 *especially 06:48:26 schemers posit that #f should be distinct from () 06:48:47 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:48:47 and that seems reasonable on the face of it 06:49:03 it doesn't bother me, as long as there is only one 06:49:17 good morning 06:49:26 http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/nil.html 06:49:52 thanks michaelw 06:50:01 hi mvilleneuve 06:51:10 JuanDaugherty: if there is any such mandate, it's ignored spectacularly by Common Lisp. 06:51:24 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:51:25 CL != lisp. 06:52:08 CL imposed a much needed regularity but there's still an antecedent culture expressed thru it. 06:52:52 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 06:53:30 and for that matter lisp dialects that remain outside it. 06:53:45 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 06:53:53 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 06:54:17 not that I bother with them except as the basis of useful apps like UMLStudio (based on a scheme dialect) 06:54:31 or emacs 06:55:10 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-153-143.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:08:30 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 07:10:16 -!- btbngr [n=btbngr@5ad9f271.bb.sky.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:10:49 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 07:11:05 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:11:08 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:17:30 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:18:13 Good morning. 07:19:24 -!- gigamonkey` [n=user@adsl-99-179-47-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:20:44 JuanDaugherty: if you can change everything, then you can't write a good compiler because no assumptions can be made. 07:21:19 borism [n=boris@195-50-206-125-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 07:21:24 to be sure, that's why an "ethos" isn't a "law" or "specified requirement" 07:22:12 To me, CL is an absolutely fantastic example of pushing the features of a language to the limit, without going beyond the point where it would be very hard to write a good compiler. 07:23:06 Most languages do not push this limit far enough (or only do it as add-on features later on), and some (like Python) go too far. 07:23:49 I had a bad early working experience with Python which caused me to hate it. 07:24:08 to not see it as much distinct from ruby or php. 07:24:09 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.142.210] has joined #lisp 07:24:43 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-099-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 07:24:44 envi_laptop [n=envi@61.78.108.74] has joined #lisp 07:25:00 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:25:02 I'd be happy to have a pleasant one that reversed that because iirc it wasn't all that bad (was nearly 8 years ago). 07:25:49 python 2 was new, I imagine there's a 3 by now. 07:26:20 leogeo [n=greg@ip68-11-196-50.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:27 having matured a bit, I'm less likely to view it as a crummy lisp. 07:27:42 hello spiaggia 07:28:12 hey mvilleneuve, what's up? 07:28:48 kij`` [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 07:29:02 -!- kij`` [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:29:07 kij`` [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 07:29:43 spiaggia: I'm making (slow) progress on my project, and waiting for an appointment with the company's HR 07:30:32 spiaggia: are you still working on format and other compiler parts? 07:30:51 good morning 07:30:56 hello antifuchs 07:31:34 hello antifuchs 07:31:43 mvilleneuve: yes, tic is working on the remaining parts of format. I did the parsing part of loop, I did all the other iteration macros, and I am working on the conditional macros (I did when, unless, cond, and I need to do the *case family). 07:32:15 drewc: it seems like the clnet rsync service isn't working. 07:32:23 drewc: I keep getting rsync: failed to connect to common-lisp.net: Connection refused (111) 07:32:30 spiaggia: cool! is there some web page about this project and its progress? 07:33:21 mvilleneuve: there is a *very preliminary* PDF about the project, but nothing about its progress. 07:34:20 mvilleneuve: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/sicl.pdf 07:34:28 spiaggia: thanks 07:35:01 mvilleneuve: I have been very busy this week, but starting tomorrow, I'll make progress again. 07:35:01 ah yes, I think I already read this document 07:35:24 yes, I believe so. 07:37:13 -!- aiur [n=Jan@218.109.75.115] has quit [Client Quit] 07:39:42 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 07:40:11 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@61.78.108.74] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:27 -!- envi_laptop is now known as envi^laptop 07:42:52 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:45:36 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:50:15 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-121-124-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:51:05 s_p [n=s_p___@eduroam.lu.lv] has joined #lisp 07:51:06 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.129] has joined #lisp 07:51:52 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:52:42 does anybody know where should start to create a .js parser ? 07:54:15 kiuma: probably by reading the syntax in the ECMAscript spec (and testing it with real-world js (-:) 07:56:09 antifuchs, I've no big problems with ECMAScript, What I want is to crate a dojotoolkit API generator using CLAW and Montezuma 07:56:18 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:52 antifuchs, only figuring out how to create a good parser 07:56:55 in CL 07:57:42 hrm, I guess it's like making a parser in every other language... you either use one of the existing parser toolkits out there, or you do recursive-descent (or whatever) on your own 07:57:50 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-181-13-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:01 check out http://www.cliki.net/parser 07:58:43 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:59:32 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has joined #lisp 08:00:56 kiuma: there's already a js parser in jwacs. 08:01:29 schasi [n=schasi@p54A26CAC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:36 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@67.168.159.175] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:05:33 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:08:18 yhara_ [n=yhara@raichu.3in.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:10:26 lispm [n=joswig@e177125177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:11:23 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:11:53 pjb, thanks 08:11:56 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 08:12:39 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:13:35 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 08:14:11 pjb, I meand in CL 08:14:16 *meant 08:14:17 -!- db48x [n=db48x@cl-12.dal-01.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:14:21 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 08:14:48 kiuma: jwacs is written in..... 08:14:51 -!- oudeis__ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-35-62.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:15:01 kiuma: fortran! :D 08:15:08 :) 08:15:12 kiuma: just kidding. check it out, it is written in cl. 08:18:22 rickardg [n=user@c-e51ae455.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:21:06 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-181-13-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:23:10 aiur [n=Jan@218.109.75.115] has joined #lisp 08:26:21 -!- yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:29:24 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:29:30 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:07 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 08:37:08 pierre__thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has joined #lisp 08:38:24 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:38:28 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 08:40:25 -!- leogeo [n=greg@ip68-11-196-50.br.br.cox.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 08:41:09 -!- maxote [n=im_alone@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:25 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:50:57 ah, whoever invented xml instead of sexps :( 08:51:23 yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has joined #lisp 08:52:00 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@122.166.88.127] has joined #lisp 08:52:00 xml can be typed! dtd is your friend! 08:52:04 ecraven: just turn them into sexps 08:52:09 tic: haha dtd 08:52:46 ddt? 08:52:47 Is it common to start preferring s-exps over algol-ish syntax after a while? 08:52:56 lispm, the DDT of programming at least. 08:53:38 maxote [n=maxote@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 08:53:43 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:53:58 tic: you either pick up s-exprs or you don't. some people just don't, and it does not seem to be clearly indicative of a lack of intelligence. 08:54:26 H4ns, that's not quite was I was asking about. 08:54:41 tic: s-exprs prove to be handy after some time of use 08:54:54 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:55:32 (Specifically, wishing languages with algol-ish syntax had s-exps.) 08:55:36 tic: i do think so. it is common, yet not universal, to pick up s-exprs. 08:55:46 -!- staffordrootbeer [n=chatzill@nat/yahoo/x-2010f06d681335b1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:55:57 lispm, yeah. easier to manipulate. 08:56:06 tic: it's like you get used to a good stereo system and then you would have to go back to your old short-wave radio to listen to music 08:56:52 the Turing tarpit of music! 08:57:29 tic: easy to manipulate by the programming language AND easy to manipulate with an editor 08:58:27 giving in to s-expression-neglectors was what turned dylan from being a fine lisp into a marginalized language, which is sad. 08:58:52 H4ns: I doubt that was the reason 08:59:07 staffordrootbeer [n=chatzill@74.220.198.237] has joined #lisp 08:59:16 well, Dylan was targetted at C++ users - though they never really used it 08:59:33 with s-exprs syntax I guess a few Lisp users would have used Dylan 08:59:43 more than the few users it has now 08:59:46 if it were a fine lisp, the huge lisp community would propably have picked it up :) 08:59:56 haha, community 09:00:00 lispm: that's what i meant. it is really niche-niche now. 09:00:03 prefix dylan was a fine Lisp 09:00:17 michaelw: you surely noted the irony tags 09:00:28 do you guys write prototypes/pseudocode in Lisp? 09:00:38 H4ns: sure, still made me laugh 09:00:40 unfortunately it was then turned into something less Lispy 09:00:56 damn you, apple! again! 09:01:04 michealw: compare that to the Algol community 09:01:24 or the C* community 09:01:32 or the scripting language community 09:01:33 ;-) 09:01:52 tic: sure 09:02:28 *H4ns* often writes lisp code that uses macros which need to be written 09:02:41 kind of like pseudo code 09:02:43 H4ns: I like the prefix Dylan and I really think it could have been something 09:02:47 lispm, was writing pseudo code in a Python-ish language, but then realized it'd be easier if I would just write it in Lisp and invent verbs as I go. That way I could just fill it in later when I want to compile it. 09:03:04 many of the students I have observed don't seem to like "regular" (syntax). they like learning and memorizing little rules and special cases. My guess is that it makes them feel that they accomplished something. It's measurable: "Look, I know the operator precedence table by heart". They don't see that that's inessential knowledge, just random facts. 09:03:13 it's an interesting realization, and I wonder if Lisp more often leads to that compared to, say, the C-family of languages? 09:03:14 lispm: yeah, it is a shame. but apple seems to be forgiven anything, even killing this fine lisp|! 09:03:54 H4ns: but they have done other things for Lisp 09:04:08 lispm: ha! you see? anything! 09:04:10 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:04:13 :D 09:04:29 H4ns: Apple helped MCL to survive, which then morphed into CCL 09:05:41 lispm: i'm as much an apple hater as many folks are passionate apple lovers. but i do own an ipod, and even a few macs. still, apple makes for a good curse from time to time. damn them! 09:06:37 at least they gave Lisp a try - too bad it did not work for them 09:07:19 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:07:55 michaelw: let them learn the syntax rules of ANSI CL 09:08:16 michealw: that will keep them busy and they think they learned something 09:09:12 I think Lisp is a good filter to find the people who can look beyond syntax 09:09:27 -!- yhara_ [n=yhara@raichu.3in.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:54 reaver___ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:10:16 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 09:10:26 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:56 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:11:13 tic: have you seen my DSL-IN-LISP video? 09:11:32 lispm, I remember seeing someone converting an RFC on-the-fly to Lisp, was it that one? 09:11:55 something like that, it was an example from Fowler 09:12:06 is it up on lispm.dyndns.org ? 09:12:16 yes 09:12:25 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.142.210] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:12:43 Cool. I'll have something to watch during the bus trip later today. 09:12:51 usually I develop the pseudo code in sync with the lisp implementation that makes the pseudo code running 09:12:59 *nod* 09:13:36 sometimes it takes more work to get the 'pseudo code' implementation done 09:14:00 -!- s_p [n=s_p___@eduroam.lu.lv] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:14:38 it has the unfortunate consequence that I don't like 'pure' code that much anymore 09:14:54 not quite sure what you mean w/ "takes more work" -- more than what? 09:15:13 as in, the high-level implementation takes more work than the, uhm, low-level one? 09:15:26 i.e., defining the problem's verbs and nouns? 09:15:31 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F7B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:34 it takes some time to design the 'language' and its implementation 09:15:37 *nod* 09:15:54 *tic* gains one weenie point for agreeing with another weenie. 09:15:57 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C422.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:16:00 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 09:16:14 I just looked at the ocaml code for an Oberon compiler - was posted to REDDIT 09:16:48 more or less pure functional code, but it does not excite me ;-) 09:17:30 maybe I should take a break and do some assembler programming ;-) 09:17:44 LAP :) 09:18:36 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@122.166.88.127] has left #lisp 09:19:12 I think CCL still has that inline assembler 09:21:18 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:21:22 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44C4B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:42 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-019-145.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:24 I think there is a reason some Lisps had a spell checker in the REPL 09:25:46 Just seeing this name of a method in comp.object : ExecuteMassageHandler 09:26:03 not sure what it does, but it looks interesting 09:26:08 ;-) 09:26:53 -!- yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:28:59 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:29:13 Clozure CL now is being ported to Windows ... does anybody know why? 09:29:20 I didn't think anyone wants to execute massage handlers. they're very useful. 09:29:27 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:29:32 lispm: probably because they can (: 09:29:51 antifuchs: but somebody needs to pay for that 09:29:59 that's true 09:30:09 s_p [n=s_p___@eduroam.lu.lv] has joined #lisp 09:30:09 who is that? 09:30:17 the alternative is to tell nyef it can't be done 09:30:37 otoh, it's an open source project, so we could also assume somebody had a bit of spare time and was curious enough to try it (: 09:30:50 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:31:15 nyef: it is not possible to port to 09:31:19 gbyers mentioned andreas bogk working on it 09:31:52 lispm: unless something changed nyef's preferences, your statement is invalid (: 09:32:07 he's ported sbcl to windows, and to bare hardware. (-: 09:32:31 I still think we should have gotten dan_b to port something to windows 09:32:32 coming up with target platforms gets a bit hard after that (: 09:32:39 heh 09:32:41 ARM 09:32:45 i think they ported it because they have some real customers who don't want to use apples 09:32:50 win64/alpha 09:33:13 H4ns: but it does already run under Linux/x86 - non-Apple 09:33:15 they had to use lispworks for them in the past, but now they can do some of the things with their own compiler. 09:33:40 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:48 ah - real customers wanting a real product, not ccl 09:33:58 lispm: yes. some customers already invested in windows and don't want to switch to linux. 09:34:00 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 09:34:01 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:34:10 H4ns: that could be something, but they still don't have a useful GUI toolkit even under Mac OS X 09:34:43 -!- dash___ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-129-041.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:34:49 H4ns: the problem is that Windows is a can of worms 09:34:52 lispm: oh well, maybe it is just because they can now promise that they "could" port to windows 09:35:02 could be 09:35:35 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 09:35:40 lispm: personally, i'm quite happy to be able to have ccl on windows soon. 09:35:48 Windows is probably a huge market - though it is no fun to support the variations 09:35:59 H4ns: really? are you using Windows? 09:36:40 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:37:23 lispm: yes, i've been using windows since nt4.0 09:37:41 lispm: i hate it. still, apple could never convince me as being significantly better. 09:37:52 ;-) 09:41:30 well, face it, apple operating systems have been pretty much as crappy as the windows counterparts before OS X :-) 09:41:41 s/windows/microsoft/ 09:41:55 Apple is for gays 09:41:58 (I have found the windows "Server" editions to be much more friendly) 09:42:10 (than the "End User" editions) 09:42:30 thanks for all your input. 09:42:47 how are your lisp projects going? 09:43:28 *crickets* 09:43:35 haha 09:45:23 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:46:44 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:46:51 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:23 H4ns: j2me, parsing xml on a mobile phone seems.. uselessly complicated ;) 09:53:45 -!- rudi [n=rudi@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/rudi] has quit ["Client exciting"] 09:59:17 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:01:00 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:02:45 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-181-13-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:22 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177125177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving..."] 10:05:29 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:06:30 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:09:54 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:17 ecraven: oh, yeah. xml is a pig in memory-constrained environments. 10:12:36 why can't my phone have a native lisp implementation :( 10:12:55 ecraven: try clojure maybe? 10:13:51 jajcloz_ [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:51 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:14:45 ecraven: not exactly slim either, though 10:15:38 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:18:24 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@abdallo.cs.unibo.it] has joined #lisp 10:20:53 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:20:53 -!- jajcloz_ [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:21:10 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-181-13-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:22:04 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-099-1.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:22:19 yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:23:57 -!- s_p [n=s_p___@eduroam.lu.lv] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:29:01 xristos [n=xristos@93-97-209-126.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:31:23 -!- aiur [n=Jan@218.109.75.115] has quit [Client Quit] 10:33:49 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D710.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:52 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:38:40 Kryztof [i=8a252169@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9b078215c5b13e50] has joined #lisp 10:49:44 xristos_ [n=xristos@93-97-209-126.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:50:59 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@61.78.108.74] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:51:14 Serva [n=Carla@unaffiliated/serva] has joined #lisp 10:51:17 -!- xristos [n=xristos@93-97-209-126.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:51:32 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 10:51:50 s_p [n=s_p___@eduroam.lu.lv] has joined #lisp 10:53:04 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:55:49 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 10:56:38 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:57 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A26CAC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:57:18 -!- yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:00:18 BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.150.249.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 11:00:19 nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:00:24 hey guys, if you would do a Windows/Mac OS X GUI app in Scheme that needs pthreads, how would you do that? 11:00:33 tiny binary is a high priority 11:00:53 BW^-: => #scheme 11:01:36 h4ns: you mean, if i want a tiny binary, then i should go with scheme, because the standard is much much smaller? 11:01:54 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-89.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:02:03 BW^-: i mean that #scheme is the proper place to discuss scheme. this channel is about common lisp. 11:03:28 or lisp anyway. 11:03:56 no, common lisp; scheme is a lisp 11:05:28 your question is equivocal about the actual GUI used. Could be carbon which would be one direction. 11:06:02 (i.e. Carbon and other Apple native layers) 11:06:15 wops, sorry 11:06:18 i meant, Common Lisp . 11:06:36 so that is, how would you do a Win/Mac OS X GUI app in Common Lisp with pthreads? 11:06:37 easiest is probably to use Clozure CL, it comes with a pretty good Cocoa library 11:06:41 or GTK which would be more likely to use pthreads. 11:06:42 and it does threads 11:06:52 no idea why you need pthreads, though (: 11:07:05 well just os-native threads :) 11:07:06 how about binary size? 11:07:06 BW^-: cross platform would be lispworks. no workable free cross-platform alternative exists. lispworks has multiprocessing. 11:07:27 the UI library doesn't need to be cross-platform, 11:07:31 but we need one on each platform. 11:07:31 H4ns: aren't lw threads just "green"? 11:07:37 BW^-: none of the open source common lisps can create binaries that qualify as "tiny" 11:07:51 ivanst [i=ivans@78-1-54-82.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 11:07:57 antifuchs: i think they have native single processor threads now, but i could be mislead. 11:07:59 antifuchs: depends on platform, I think 11:08:05 ah 11:08:08 h4ns: are there commercial CL:s that do that? 11:08:14 though only one lisp thread rinning at one time, apparently 11:08:24 BW^-: still hardly tiny, but smaller 11:08:30 BW^-: lispworks and franz, but i don't know what you mean by "tiny" 11:08:41 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:44 tiny binary and CL are contradictory requirments. 11:08:59 h4ns: constant binary size of max 200-300kb, and possibility of making a quite robust ui app on 1-1.5MB 11:09:05 scsh or something like that non-CL might work. 11:09:09 BW^-: not available with any common lisp 11:09:12 some windows, comboboxes, labels 11:09:29 hm. ok. 11:09:35 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 11:09:40 is there any non-common lisp development environment you would prefer to do this in? 11:09:49 yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:10:03 BW^-: my machine has 4gb of ram and 500gb disk. i hardly worry about "tiny" 11:10:08 BW^-: for those sizes? C :) 11:10:09 nasm and a text editor (-; 11:10:31 :) 11:10:36 ok we could accept 2MB also. :) 11:10:40 H4ns, actually that's not that uncommon these days, especially the disk space. 11:10:43 (and even then, you'd be lucky to get it that small on MacOS, in particular) 11:10:58 BW^-: why the tiny binary requirement? 11:11:11 small to download for users. 11:11:32 these are pretty close to demo sizes; check out Farbrausch's Debris, they fit theirs into 180k (-: 11:11:32 ah, most people have broadband of some sort these days 11:12:01 nowadays, download sizes of 5-10 mb hardly qualify as "large". takes a few minutes. 11:12:21 BW^-: but if you want to have minimum sizes, use c and program against the system api. you'll not get smaller than that. 11:13:21 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:43 ahaas_ [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:54 though it's painful on windows 11:14:11 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:15:45 rsynnott: i've never found hacking windows api be very painful. certainly, i did not try to use emacs for that. 11:16:05 h4ns: right, that may be a good idea. 11:16:16 h4ns: or use something close to that, such as the programming language D . 11:16:44 h4ns,*: are you aware of any tiny GUI library for mac os x and windows? 11:16:51 BW^-: any language that you chose will come with a run time library. using the language that the system prefers will get you the smallest binary 11:17:22 BW^-: "system api" means "use whatever the system comes with". but this is off topic. 11:17:55 nunb [n=nunb@host15-53-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:18:08 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:20:05 -!- s_p [n=s_p___@eduroam.lu.lv] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:21:31 ths [n=ths@p549AF225.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:39 one might be able to fit ecl and some application code to 2MB 11:23:18 l4ndfo_ [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:23:18 -!- l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:24:12 is there a function like (set-difference), but that'd work like (list-difference '(1 2 2 3) '(3 2)) => (1 2) 11:24:22 ie, not removing duplicates, as per set functions 11:24:28 robb` [n=user@dhcp-040247.wlan.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 11:24:35 or clojure, or, I think ABCL, if they already have the JVM 11:26:22 -!- robb` [n=user@dhcp-040247.wlan.ntnu.no] has quit [Client Quit] 11:26:33 Tordek: and which of the two elements that have the value 2 should be removed? 11:27:02 in this case, it's irrelevant, they're all atomic 11:27:06 (it's obvious with objects that are eql and :test #'eql, but how would it work for other tests and different object identities?) 11:27:14 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:27:27 yeah, I don't think this operator exists. 11:27:35 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #lisp 11:27:44 okay 11:27:46 thanks 11:28:47 (loop for to-remove = (pop list-2) append (loop for elt in list-1 unless (eql elt to-remove) collect elt)) ; or something like this, for the n^lots big-o (: 11:28:48 -!- yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:29:15 -!- Kryztof [i=8a252169@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9b078215c5b13e50] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 11:30:24 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 11:34:44 looptastic, (remove to-remove list-1) 11:37:58 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@89-172-56-122.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 11:38:03 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:41:13 Kryztof [i=8a252169@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e1e43481a4f72b86] has joined #lisp 11:42:25 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54ABEC15.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:43:43 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:44:14 S11001001: the problem with that is (remove 2 '(1 2 2 2 3)) => (1 3), and I'd want (1 2 2 3) 11:44:48 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:45:37 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:26 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:47:41 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@89-172-61-82.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:49:13 <_8david> :count 1 11:49:23 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 11:49:47 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:50:38 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:50:56 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:53:57 lispm [n=joswig@e177127233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:55:12 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:55:30 -!- nunb [n=nunb@host15-53-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:55:44 nunb [n=nunb@host15-53-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:56:10 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177127233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:59:27 Tordek pasted "list-difference" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68250 11:59:36 mozzyb [n=mozzyb@248.80-203-57.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:59:42 a first draft 12:00:00 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 12:00:43 Tordek: These functions already exist. 12:01:00 >_> 12:01:03 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 12:01:24 clhs set-difference 12:01:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_di.htm 12:01:40 stassats: nope, I need repetitions 12:02:13 (list-difference '(1 2 2 3 3 3) '(3 2)) => (1 2 3 3) 12:02:28 -!- xristos_ [n=xristos@93-97-209-126.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:02:57 yeah, remove-first can be replaced, now that I red _8david's suggestion, with remove :count 1 12:03:34 yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:04:38 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-188-161-219.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:56 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-206-125-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 12:09:31 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:20 michaelw pasted "list-difference" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68251 12:12:09 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:12:28 michaelw: that won't work for '(1 2 2 2) '(2 2) 12:13:16 Tordek: you might be using the wrong data structure in the first place. any solution involving lists will be rather ugly and inefficient. 12:13:29 H4ns, I've a question about http single thread hadled via event driven fast I/O: if a page need some database queries to be rendered, is still the single thread model the right choice ? 12:14:01 kiuma: if you can integrate your database i/o with the event loop, then yes 12:14:03 H4ns: I was unaware that that was a requirement 12:14:39 thanks 12:15:27 kiuma: for example, if you use postgresql with the native lisp interface (which uses a socket to talk to the db server), things will work fine with cmucl multiprocessing (which is event-loop based) 12:15:34 you'll need one instance per processor/core, or course 12:16:07 cmucl's multiprocessing performance is actually pretty impressive 12:16:07 kiuma: one common reason to want threading is to be able to use native threads so that one can use vendor supplied c libraries to access databases. 12:16:30 *rsynnott* is almost considering switching back to it now it has unicode 12:16:48 *H4ns* is considering that. 12:17:28 no evil threads, but multiprocessing. that is what i really want. 12:18:00 though I'm very comfortable and used to sbcl now 12:18:14 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 12:18:26 rsynnott: yeah, i got rid of all of my style-warnings now, too! :) 12:18:54 I'd like to have both 12:18:59 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 12:19:25 michaelw: i wouldn't mind, but to me, safety is more important than the ability to run on multiple cores or use vendor supplied database libraries. 12:19:25 heh 12:19:54 (on building my largeish project from scratch; 100 style warnings, 968 notes) 12:19:55 H4ns, ah ok, so if I use clsql-postgresql instead of clsql-postgresql-socket, the thread model is right ? 12:20:10 kiuma: can't comment, don't know either of them. 12:20:11 (the notes are mostly griping about types from the optimiser) 12:20:51 kiuma: well, clsql-postgresql-socket would play nicely with cmucl, say 12:20:55 the other wouldn't 12:21:05 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@89-172-56-122.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:21:29 rsynnott, thank you 12:22:02 if you're using postgresql, you're probably better off with one of the all-in-lisp access methods (cl-postgresql-socket, postmodern et al) anyway 12:24:42 rsynnott, currently I'm only building a demo using CLSQL, one can change the connection type he wants, currently I'm using the non socket one, but one can change it 12:28:08 a hybrid model is certainly possible; newer erlang runtimes have an OS thread per physical processor, for instance 12:28:40 (which requires some truly frightening juggling for long-running external tasks; the BDB EDTK driver is particularly scary) 12:29:03 rsynnott: yeah, simple matter of programming 12:33:52 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:17 -!- yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:34:38 yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:37:41 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:39:29 borism [n=boris@195-50-206-125-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:42:40 froog______ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 12:44:50 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 12:48:24 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 12:49:42 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:49:51 *Xach* finds himself reinventing streams incomplete 12:49:53 -ly 12:50:19 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbc639.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:51:53 tsk 12:52:31 greenspunned 12:52:32 *chandler* finds himself prematurely optimizing, vows to decomplificate 12:54:00 *dlowe* adds decomplificate to wikictionary 12:56:49 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:57:53 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:01 -!- froog_____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:58:31 yhara_ [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:58:44 -!- Kryztof [i=8a252169@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e1e43481a4f72b86] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 12:59:35 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 12:59:36 -!- yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:03:52 -!- nunb [n=nunb@host15-53-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:04:51 Xach: re your portability layer. kind of neat, but i'm not sure what CLOS buys you there 13:05:21 since presumably the implementation will no change mid-session... you end up paying for flexibility you don't use 13:05:33 I'm not sure what the reason is to not use usocket. 13:05:39 my thoughts exactly 13:05:58 (both nikodemus_'s and chandler's :)) 13:06:00 (unless the functions would be GF's anyways, in which case the cost is probably noise) 13:06:42 "one file" is a goal. 13:06:54 performance isn't, especially. 13:07:01 generality also isn't. 13:07:58 one thing that CLOS could buy is the ability to conditionally use usocket as the backend. 13:08:18 if this was a beauty contest, I'd like to see a base line first, i.e. #+lispworks (progn ...) #+sbcl (progn ...). I bet the number of reader macros would be lower. 13:08:19 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:08:33 kreuter: I liked the PROGV idea! 13:08:44 what's the progv idea? 13:08:54 nunb [n=nunb@host15-53-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:08:56 Xach: see slime-devel 13:08:58 michaelw: i don't follow... 13:09:06 michaelw: mind you, special variables are still evil. 13:09:20 hmm, i haven't seen a progv message yet. 13:09:33 did I forget to CC slime-devel? 13:09:42 me neither 13:09:47 i'm reading via gmane, so i don't know. 13:09:54 no, I did. 13:10:03 I'm subscribed directly, and I haven't received it yet. 13:10:22 what is the best way to invoke a function from one lisp image on host a to another on host b? all i am coming up with is allegro rpc. 13:10:26 michaelw: putting all of the implementation in the progns? 13:10:47 nunb: if security is not a concern, just open up a listener socket and run a minimal REPL 13:11:21 Xach: I, for one, think that your use of CLOS is good, solid Lisping. 13:11:28 i like the subclassing, though -- connections-are-streams, etc. assuming it actually allows you to share code between implementations nicely 13:11:32 or there's always... CORBA (sinister music goes here) 13:11:36 Xach: putting the equalizing layer (e.g., (defun %foo (...) (impl:foo ...))) into the progns 13:11:41 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C9B.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:12:01 rsynnott: my sound track machine must be broken. All I got was a sound effect of a car hitting a brick wall. 13:12:02 nikodemus_: it didn't work too well for ecl and sbcl, which have an identical API. 13:12:07 :) 13:12:20 that kind of selectively could happen in a compile-time layer as well, i suppose 13:13:10 define-implementation-package is also golden 13:13:31 *Xach* has to move more into it 13:13:35 chandler: sorry i do not understand how a repl will allow for connection.. i need to send data over the socket, not commands (unless i come up with a way to serialize hashtables, images to forms) 13:13:55 -!- pierre__thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:14:09 pierre__thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has joined #lisp 13:14:14 nunb: that's not necessarily hard to do. 13:14:16 nunb: Well, you're going to need to figure out how to do that in any case. 13:14:19 * agrees on the car hitting a wall 13:14:47 There's no magic in Allegro RPC that allows the remote Lisp to get at your hash tables without them being serialized. 13:14:55 chandler: true 13:15:15 -!- nunb [n=nunb@host15-53-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:15:29 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:15:42 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45909.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:43 the testing interface is also nifty 13:18:01 mulligan` [n=user@e178031213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:18:25 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 13:20:03 i can actually eliminate all #+ except for the CCL stuff 13:20:34 good ol' ccl! 13:21:54 nunb [n=nunb@host15-53-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:21:55 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:23:02 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:23:15 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:23:22 -!- Serva [n=Carla@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:23:59 can git-diff be made to ignore whitespace changes? 13:24:14 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 13:25:33 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@h-188-232.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:26:16 kreuter: --ignore-space-change 13:26:39 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178044034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:26:43 oh, it passes arguments along to diff? 13:27:28 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:42 er, never mind. 13:28:05 yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:28:09 -!- yhara_ [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:29:39 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44C4B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:01 -!- froog______ is now known as froog 13:33:47 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 13:34:17 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:35:31 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 13:35:52 plutonas [n=plutonas@h-188-232.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 13:36:19 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 13:36:39 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:36:44 -!- nunb [n=nunb@host15-53-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:36:57 nunb [n=nunb@host15-53-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:37:17 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 13:38:37 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:50 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@202-161-20-161.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:43:17 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:45:18 warren buffet is the worlds richest man now http://tech.yahoo.com/news/nm/20081010/tc_nm/us_buffett_forbes 13:46:53 NoorDextor: wrong channel 13:47:03 -!- yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:19 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:25 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-49-68.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:42 btbngr [n=btbngr@5ad9f271.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:58 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has quit [] 13:55:12 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@124-171-107-126.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:56:28 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:37 NoorDextor: that's pretty on topic for ##finance and I'd be interested in hearing such things there. 13:56:58 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:57:05 oh there is such channel? 13:57:06 cool 13:57:10 thanks man. 13:57:26 also ##economics 13:57:45 great 14:00:31 benny [n=benny@i577A0C9B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:01:45 -!- nunb [n=nunb@host15-53-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:49 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [No route to host] 14:02:19 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:03:48 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:11 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:55 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 14:09:51 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:10:12 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 14:10:52 yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:11:13 soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has joined #lisp 14:12:39 mechine [n=mutable@220-253-187-198.NSW.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:12:39 -!- mechine [n=mutable@220-253-187-198.NSW.netspace.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 14:13:46 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:56 -!- kij`` [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:18:03 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:23 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 14:29:11 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:32 milos_ [n=milos@92.36.182.110] has joined #lisp 14:34:02 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.129] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 14:35:11 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:35:19 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:35:22 gigamonkey` [n=user@adsl-99-179-47-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:10 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:37:22 -!- yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:42:29 RadioApeShot [n=toups@physics00039.dhcp.unc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:43:19 So I am trying to declare a package using defpackage with (defpackage :game 14:43:19 (:use :common-lisp :common-lisp-user :sdl :sdl-gfx :sdl-image)) 14:43:42 looks okay 14:43:45 what's happening? 14:43:59 This works, but :sdl imports a bunch of symbols, which sdl-gfx also apparently imports (from sdl) 14:44:15 So I have to answer manually for each one of about 30 symbols which I want to use 14:44:22 Even though they refer to the same code 14:44:39 RadioApeShot: one option is to use :shadowing-import-from with :use, or use :import-from instead of :use 14:44:40 Am I doing something wrong, or is lispbuilder doing something weird? 14:44:41 also, you most probably don't need to :use ":common-lisp-user" 14:44:48 RadioApeShot: probably, they're designed so you import only one of them. 14:45:01 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:45:05 RadioApeShot: also, usually cl-user doesn't export anything. It's kind of a scratch package. 14:45:06 matimago's answer sounds pretty likely to me 14:45:08 you probably don't ever want to use common-lisp-user. 14:45:19 common-lisp-user should not be :used 14:45:24 What I found is that if I didn't use :common-lisp-user I could not in-package back to CL-USER if I in-packaged into game 14:45:28 you don't know where cl-user's been! 14:45:37 Or maybe it was superstition 14:45:39 RadioApeShot: you want to :use :cl instead 14:45:55 he's got common-lisp in the use list. 14:46:07 Ok 14:46:14 So this is more sensible, then 14:46:16 (defpackage :clrl 14:46:16 (:use :common-lisp) 14:46:16 (:import :sdl :sdl-gfx :sdl-image)) 14:46:22 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-7.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 14:46:40 RadioApeShot: that isn't valid Common Lisp 14:46:47 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:46:52 :import isn't an option in defpackage 14:47:26 Let me check the hyperspec before I bother you any further 14:47:38 not a bad idea :) 14:47:54 the bit about option ordering is helpful 14:48:26 So I need to explicitly list the symbols to import with :import-from ? 14:48:41 RadioApeShot: not necessarily. i think you probably don't want to use all three. 14:48:48 RadioApeShot: yes, but it's prudent not to list them, but their names. 14:48:49 I guess I can probably import just sdl:gfx 14:48:54 sdl-gfx 14:48:57 RadioApeShot: if they export the same symbols, you can probably use just one. 14:48:59 yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:49:02 Yes 14:49:10 RadioApeShot: does the cl sdl documentation give any guidance on the issue? 14:49:36 the lispbuilder-sdl documentation is not that complete 14:49:43 I don't think it does 14:49:50 But I could have missed it 14:49:54 I have been looking at source code a lot 14:50:13 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:39 sometimes high-level concepts like "you should pick only one of these to :use" aren't completely obvious from the source 14:50:55 or "these aren't meant to be :use-d at all" 14:51:03 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:51:38 oudeis__ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-49-68.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:10 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-7.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:10 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go home"] 14:52:47 Besides being a little young, these are good bindings to sdl and sdl-gfx 14:52:51 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 14:53:02 Kind of like pygame 14:53:06 Although not quite as nice 14:53:21 But more convenient because the gameloop automatically runs in another thread 14:53:31 So you can have things running which you change your code around 14:53:41 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:53 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:57:27 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:36 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 14:59:45 -!- RadioApeShot [n=toups@physics00039.dhcp.unc.edu] has left #lisp 15:01:29 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:01:33 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-49-68.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:05:48 bhyde [n=bhyde@96.237.135.36] has joined #lisp 15:06:09 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:07:14 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.150.249.bredband.tre.se] has left #lisp 15:08:26 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:08:28 kij`` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 15:09:37 -!- kleppari [n=spa@85-220-66-164.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:10:18 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C9B.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:11:30 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:11:44 kleppari [n=spa@85-220-66-164.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 15:13:40 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 15:20:42 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:23:20 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2F9F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:31 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43980.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:01 Hun [n=Hun@p4FCF5E37.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:47 elurin [n=user@85.99.132.149] has joined #lisp 15:30:56 disumu [n=disumu@p57A26EFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:57 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:33:47 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@h-188-232.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:34:37 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D3F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:34 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:40 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1C94F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:15 truebosko [n=truebosk@KTNRON06-1168106520.sdsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:38:31 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45909.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:30 Hi there, I'm currently reading SICP and it got me intrigued in Lisp. I know a few languages already but would like to dive into some functional programming. I see there are many varieties of Lisp out there. Should I look into Common Lisp or some other variant? 15:40:16 Generally, the two varieties worth looking at are Common Lisp and Scheme. 15:40:26 this channel is biased towards common lisp 15:40:41 Yeah, Scheme was another one I saw a lot of 15:40:52 If you're working through SICP, starting with Scheme probably makes sense (as that's the language used for the examples and exercises). 15:40:54 And SICP is in Scheme 15:41:12 Right 15:41:29 I'm not sure if "biased towards" is the right word, but generally we discuss Common Lisp here and Scheme in #scheme. 15:43:00 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:09 hey #lisp - how do i sum a list ? is pushing a '+ infront of eg. (1 2 3) -> (+ 1 2 3) ok ? 15:44:19 kij``: no. 15:44:21 that'll get you a list. 15:44:26 kij``: REDUCE or APPLY are a couple ways. 15:44:34 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:44:35 kij``: LOOP will do it too. 15:44:46 (loop for i in list summing i) for example 15:46:34 but (eval (+ 1 2 3)) gives me the correct answer. is it slower ? 15:47:17 kij``: yes. 15:47:57 Xach: (reduce #'+ '(1 2 3)) - thanks 15:54:51 CL-USER> hmm reduce says 14000 processor cycles, (time( eval (+ 0 3 5 6 ....))) only takes 4700. what am i doing wrong ? 15:55:13 you are doing (eval 3) 15:55:17 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:55:44 s/3/actual sum/ 15:56:12 add a ' there and you should see it 15:56:31 eval is a function that evaluates its arguments. 15:57:18 or rather, it follows normal function evaluation rules for its arguments. 15:58:23 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 15:58:26 'morning 16:00:09 trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-246-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:09 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:02:05 sneaky, (trace eval) is not pretty :p 16:03:04 tracing CL functions is undefined behavior territory 16:03:15 there is a rule of thumb: don't ever use eval 16:03:38 but as always, there are exceptions 16:03:41 the rule for the other thumb is: unless you need to 16:03:49 it's pretty useful when bootstrapping interpreters 16:03:51 and for the third thumb: if you're not sure you need to, don't! 16:04:44 hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279776314.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:05:58 -!- yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:06:36 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:02 Xach, see we knew lisp was alien :) 16:07:35 it's not ALL thumbs, though. 16:08:26 no, just (incf (thumbs lisp)) 16:08:31 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:08:43 :) 16:10:30 nostoi [n=nostoi@250.Red-83-54-15.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:51 -!- oudeis__ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-49-68.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:11:23 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633014.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:19 rpg [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has joined #lisp 16:15:00 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:03 Where do the #lisp irc logs live these days? 16:15:46 minion: logs 16:15:47 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 16:16:22 -!- prip [n=_prip@host193-177-dynamic.61-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:16:30 Xof: aroundp ? 16:16:56 redundant ? :) 16:17:10 indeed 16:17:44 hmm 16:18:02 it would be pretty neat to kinda dig into CL and replace 'T' with 'INDEED' 16:18:03 :) 16:18:15 yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:18:49 (formaindeed indeed "Really?") 16:19:04 INDEED 16:19:09 (defconstant INDEED 'INDEED) 16:19:43 (formaindeed indeed "O'RLY?") 16:19:45 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:19:45 -!- trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-246-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:20:29 Xach: also, mogunus said he could go, so I guess if all goes well, we'll be there for the next lisp meeting 16:20:54 and then it's only a matter of time before "OMG are you serious??!!" 16:21:29 *Xach* is now unsure of his own ability to make it 16:21:30 and then "OMG R U SERIUS?" 16:21:50 OMG-R-U-SERIAS? => LOLNO 16:22:10 "and the world has reached a new low" 16:22:10 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 16:22:27 Good evening. 16:22:33 and then the kitties of death eat you 16:23:02 while cheered by the kittehs of life? 16:23:37 thanks stassats, but a while ago kevinr had a nice webby version of the logs. They moved from meme.b9.com; did they go away altogether? 16:24:06 I can't believe you used "nice" and "webby" in the same sentence. 16:25:28 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:25:34 rpg: they were on www.ircbrowse.com for a while 16:25:36 http://ircbrowse.com/channel/lisp/20081010 works sporadically 16:26:29 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 16:28:04 scottj [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has joined #lisp 16:28:46 In slime inspector, if you inspect a subcomponent, how do you go back to inspecting the previous object? 16:28:52 l 16:29:02 (just had to look that up myself the other day :) 16:29:21 -!- btbngr [n=btbngr@5ad9f271.bb.sky.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:29:21 note, L not 1 16:29:29 ah, had been wondering that for a while, but not quite enough that I could be bothered to look through the docs :) 16:29:46 thanks. I was searching C-h m for previous and last, but not pop :) 16:30:47 hey beach 16:31:27 Hello salex, what's up? 16:32:13 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-62a6bad59f62654b] has joined #lisp 16:35:58 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.8.239] has joined #lisp 16:38:52 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:40:42 beach: plugging away. writing application material etc. 16:40:47 playing with new laptop :) 16:41:22 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEACC17.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:02 -!- milos_ [n=milos@92.36.182.110] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:42:53 salex: this morning, I spent half of my 2h lecture on the paper by Hudak & Jones on language comparison, and its consequences to software project management. 16:43:04 -+* 16:43:33 beach: don't think I know that one. Worth a read? 16:43:45 oh, it's fantastic! 16:44:05 ferrets are up, sorry guys 16:44:12 salex: http://www.haskell.org/papers/NSWC/jfp.ps 16:44:25 Thanks. 16:45:43 drewc: you need a screen locker, unless they already know your passwords :-) 16:45:49 salex: It's one of the few papers that compare languages. They admit that it is not sufficiently scientific to draw any conclusions, but that's not my message either. Instead it is: any project that decides on a programming language without having considered the alternatives even if some training might be necessary is bound to wast huge amounts of money. 16:46:20 Can we quote on it? 16:46:38 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@96.237.135.36] has quit [] 16:46:46 chandler: 16:47:21 hahaha ... that was actually a ferret! 16:47:46 salex: plus, even though the paper is in favor of Haskell, a dialect of Lisp called Relational Lisp gets the shortest development time, which I don't mention because my students know I like Lisp. I let them discover that by themselves. 16:47:57 they managed to type ch 16:47:58 beach: interesting 16:48:23 drewc: never mix ferrets and APL ;) 16:48:41 thanks beach, i'll have a proper read of it later 16:49:08 salex: sure, no problem. 16:51:30 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:51:46 bhyde [n=bhyde@96.237.135.36] has joined #lisp 16:51:47 how do you feel the class is going? 16:52:28 salex: Pretty well so far. It's boring stuff, so I try to introduce anecdotes and stuff like this paper to make them think a bit. 16:52:54 makes sense 16:53:32 next, I'll talk about domain-specific langauges and how to implement them, inevitably touching on "embedded langauges", i.e. Lisp macros. 16:54:09 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:12 Essentially the message from OnLisp. 16:54:31 -!- yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:54:51 benny [n=benny@i577A0C9B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:57 ecraven [n=nex@cm56-211-173.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 16:56:13 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.132.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:56:59 leogeo [n=greg@ip68-11-196-50.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:08 milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.76] has joined #lisp 17:01:44 well that stuff is interesting, anyway 17:03:33 schasi [n=schasi@p54A26CAC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:42 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 17:04:11 The main problem for me is that they (not all of them but the usual 90%) already have a negative opinion of Lisp, so if I insist too much, they might brush it off as more pro-Lisp propaganda. 17:04:42 beach: so much lisp hate all over the place. It's sad :( 17:05:35 sykopomp: I suspect it has nothing to do with Lisp at all, but with being presented with something that gives such a lot of "cognitive dissonance". 17:06:55 sykopomp: some time ago, students signed up for university studies in order to be exposed to that, but now they resist new information that clashes with their current model of the world. We just have to deal with that. 17:07:27 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 17:09:16 *hefner* wonders how beach deals with cognitive dissonance 17:09:23 beach: yeah, I can see that being a bit of a delicate path 17:09:32 sykopomp: but I think I am uniquely well-suited to counter-balance that resistance to learning new things by being more credible that my colleagues, given that I have experience from the software industry in 4 (or at least 3) different countries. 17:09:40 if they're sick of lisp, sell them python 17:09:55 hefner: doesn't help so much for DSL stuff etc. 17:09:57 we sold them Python 5 years agao. 17:10:00 *ago 17:10:30 *salex* stokes the fires of matlab-hate 17:10:52 salex: it can't be any worse than the situation in C++ or Java 17:11:01 hefner: Cognitive dissonance is hard to deal with for all of us, but you can train yourself to recognize it, and compensate for the effects. 17:11:02 python you mean? 17:11:15 I'm thinking of Martin Fowler's great book on DSLs 17:11:38 yes, but if your point is to describe constructing DSLs, you really want to use a language that doesn't make it look like a bad idea ;) 17:12:32 sometimes mathworks really annoys me 17:12:39 salex: People in my research lab have a very good point, namely: the main reason for using a DSL is to have a language that is not Turing-complete so that you can do more checks at compile time. 17:13:10 mmm. good point. 17:13:15 Does this mean that DSLs which are mostly composed of Lisp expressions are not actually DSLs? 17:13:21 can you know ahead of time whether you will need a turing complete language? 17:13:28 salex: But then they jump to conclusions: "so you have to write your parser from scratch". 17:13:32 heh 17:14:06 chandler: no, it just means that my colleages don't think you will get those particular advantages with such DSLs. 17:14:18 mathworks, in it's ineffable wisdom, as far as I can see uses libz internally but doesnt expose it in a useful way. bstrds. 17:14:31 maybe i'm just missing something 17:14:37 (the closest I ever got to this was working on some damn fool tool that defined its communication protocol in XML, and if we'd have had more time than sense, the chief astronaut would've eventually insisted on a full language inside the XML to validate the relationships between the fields) 17:15:00 hefner: my theory is that you are making a big mistake by not making your DSL Turing complete, but that might just be me and my theories. 17:15:30 after all, you never know when you'll need the app to send mail :) 17:15:39 Domain-specific semantic checking is an advantage of DSLs, but to me their raison d'être is clarity of expression and a visible link between the solution and the problem space. 17:15:46 salex: not quite, but something similar. 17:15:57 Better checking is a side effect of this, not a primary purpose. 17:16:02 i know. the mail bit was teasing 17:16:06 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:52 chandler: and, an embedded language doesn't necessarily prevent those checks, only those that require you to solve the halting problem. 17:17:49 i look at them similarly to chandler, above. clarity is much improved by a good one 17:17:56 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:18:09 But, hey, I have colleagues who managed to publish papers by assuming that you don't want Turing completeness. I respect that. But that doesn't mean that I am going to make that the main argument to my students. 17:18:52 salex: I agree, and I am certainly going to present that as one argument. Plus the productivit argument when you produce your code, of course. 17:19:04 absolutely! 17:19:17 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:19:40 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:41 One of my examples is going to be my embedded version of Metafont into Gsharp. It has the additional advantage of being one of my own experiences with embedded langauges (as opposed to believing all that PG says). 17:21:28 yeah, that's a good one. and reminds me i've been meaning to check out gsharp progress for months now 17:21:33 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:21:46 Comparing the Metafont program that I initially wrote for the G-clef to the embedded version is fun. 17:21:50 when I see the word "productivity", I reach for the pistol 17:21:56 why? 17:22:14 -!- Ifur [n=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:22:20 because all those paper measure the speed of writing something that just works according to the spec 17:22:45 salex: Gsharp hasn't made much progress for some months now, but there are some things about to happen that might change that. 17:22:56 beach: my ten second skimming of gsharp/mf.lisp suggests you should write more comments or docstrings :) 17:23:06 cmm: that's a feeble reason for such drastic actions. 17:23:16 hefner: OK :( 17:23:19 cool. I'm many many months out of date though, do to my near hiatus from lisp last year-ish 17:23:20 while what actually ends up mattering in the real world is the speed (nay, the ability) of writing something that works according to the spec *and* is understandable by complete strangers two years later 17:23:25 Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 17:23:50 beach: it's OK, because I don't have a pistol :) 17:23:57 -!- _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:24:03 cmm: good to know. 17:24:07 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:24:44 salex: "due to?" 17:24:58 from a coders point of view, i've also wondered how much weight to give `percieved productivity' 17:24:59 what would be cool to measure is productivity in terms of producing code that haven't been completely rewritten later 17:25:06 beach: erm yes. brain fart. 17:25:10 *hasn't, that is 17:25:45 cmm: yes, one of the problems is that most code metrics suck completely, and the rest just suck mostly 17:26:05 cmm: I think in the long run, that index tends towards zero. 17:26:09 which, of course cannot really be measured because specifications change, rules change, organizations change, etc 17:26:27 some sort of more forensic analysis of projects woudl probably give better info, but would require data collection all the way along (or reconstructable) 17:26:29 -!- kij`` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:35 chandler: quite :) 17:26:38 and then average over N projects 17:27:01 salex: As I keep telling my students and representatives of industry: the main responsibility of a CTO is to take everything that can be measured, look at it, and then use his or her intuition to determine what is best. Productivity in software development is hard to measure, so we need CTOs who can judge that from intuition. 17:27:36 salex: but we don't have that at the moment, so most current CTOs could be replaced by spread-sheets because they use only hard figures to make decisions. 17:27:39 what we need and what we get are very different in this case. 17:27:41 agreed. problem is, some of them have built their intuition almost entirely from failed projects 17:27:42 WTF/m -- the best code metric i've yet seen 17:27:50 oops, /min :P 17:27:50 due to the nature of the busines 17:27:54 usually, a known failure is far more acceptable than the possibility of failure 17:28:09 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-016-253.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:36 nikodemus_: calibrated to a skilled programmer unfamiliar with the project, I presume? 17:29:09 salex: I don't agree that it has to do with the nature of the business, unless you count incompetent CTOs as the nature of the business. 17:29:17 beach: a combination of hard figures and `nobody got fired for buying IBM' 17:29:25 even within the project is better then noting :) 17:29:29 no, i count failed projects as the nature of the business 17:29:34 I remember several times when the code I wtf'ed at while getting acquanted with it turned out to be actually quite good, all things considered 17:30:13 and problems in the process of promoting execs resulting in some seniour people having literally almost no idea what a good project looks like 17:30:40 cmm: wtf's are allowed, so long as they aren't too densee 17:30:54 but it's highly variable with experience of reader, too 17:30:56 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:31:09 i was reading the id object system code today, it was close to 0.1 wtf/min, though probably closer to 1 my-brain-hurts/min :) 17:31:20 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #lisp 17:31:21 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:31:39 -!- _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:31:49 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:34 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-28-78.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:58 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 17:33:22 So, I encourage my students to take at least one day per week for "individual training" even though the company doesn't allow this, because the software-engineering litarature indicates a factor 20 difference in productivity, so nobody will notice the difference. 17:34:08 subversive! 17:34:35 I also encourage them to never ask for permission to use some new technique or tool on a project, because the answer will most likely be "no" and then they are stuck, whereas if they don't ask for permission, they can always claim they didn't know it was not allowed (if someone discovers it). 17:34:37 perhaps, but at the end of 12 weeks, the students have excellent abs 17:34:58 "abs"? 17:35:08 beach: sorry. a bad joke about training as exercise. 17:35:18 *beach* didn't get it 17:35:24 *hefner* laughed 17:35:40 also, all lisp coders love to pump steel 17:35:50 if someone gets that one 17:35:54 cmm: and the best part is that I tell CTOs of major companies in the region that this is what I tell the students. 17:36:05 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:36:23 manuel_: the word "to pump" is kinda iffy, I think :) 17:36:27 beach: i like it 17:36:43 the subversiveness, i mean 17:36:46 salex: Again, credibility plays a major role. 17:36:52 manuel_: and there is a bit of a pun there that you may not want. 17:36:57 beach: i've implemented that 20% personal growth thing at my last two joints. 17:37:06 beach: it increases overall productivity significantly. 17:37:35 bougyman: It does. I congratulate you to having figured that out, and to having the courange to apply it. 17:37:38 beach: a few CIO/CTOs in the region that are in a forum with me have done the same. 17:37:43 wgl: ohmaybe i did :) 17:37:49 they are seeing similar results. 17:38:08 Ah, you thinking of a java dude? 17:38:46 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:38:53 bougyman/beach ... this is also the basis behing things like research fridays, etc.. 17:38:55 beach: but we disagree on the new tech/new tool thing, to a point. if the tech/tool has not been used by them on a project (open source, personal, or work) it is not allowed in the prod dev environment. 17:39:14 salex: never heard about those, but it sounds right. 17:39:15 lots of places have seen good results of this. 17:39:34 like... Google? 17:39:43 beach: that's to make sure people aren't learning and trial/error in production code. 17:39:43 yeah, google has a program like that 17:39:50 but they weren't the first 17:40:07 bougyman: if you hold by the standard: never ship a prototype (good idea) 17:40:18 then allowing things in for prototyping can be good too 17:40:35 google is so attractive that they cannot really be used for any comparison whatsoever. they just have great people 17:40:38 cmm: but google doesn't actually follow through. 17:40:49 it's the 120% thing. 17:41:04 -!- JHVH is now known as Jarvellis 17:41:04 i know a lot of discouraged ex-googlers that complained about that part of the gig. 17:41:11 bougyman: yes, and the folks like it :) 17:41:13 bougyman: the problem with that is that you can't trust management to make the right decision, so if someone is going to, it shall have to be the "grass roots". They might get it wrong sometimes though (and perhaps several times), but I am not sure that's entirely negative. 17:41:33 cmm: but i wasn't suggesting google as a comparison 17:41:35 beach: i am management. 17:41:43 so it's a bit different, i guess. 17:42:02 bougyman: when I utter things like that, they should be interpreted statistically. 17:42:07 bougyman: management should understand that you can't trust management to make the right decision, too :) 17:42:11 i don't want tools/techs going into the production codebase that the department cannot support and maintain. 17:42:15 salex: er, sure, I was qualifying my own, er, contribution :) 17:42:23 at least, as beach says, statistically 17:43:07 bougyman: yes, that makes sense. but it's good to have a path of some sort to try stuff out that won't end up in production without solid vetting 17:43:14 and it's not a really formal thing, if they want to use something new they show it to me on a screen in their own sandbox. if it looks useful/solid then it goes on the dev wiki as a tool, with documenation/credit/etc. 17:43:47 then anyone can utilize that in their process, and all of the dev machines will have it installed/available/configured. 17:43:55 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 17:44:03 bougyman: that only works for reasonable managers. 17:44:06 more of a communication rule than anything else, so we're always on the same page. 17:44:40 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:41 bougyman: I am willing to believe that you are exceptional (or you wouldn't hang out on #lisp), but you must realize that most managers aren't, and I can't adapt my advice to students to exceptional managers. 17:44:44 there's nothing more frustrating than going to deploy and realizing the deployment environment is missing half the tools/dependencies. 17:45:02 oh, yeah, i lived in the world you describe for a decade. 17:45:21 change management meetings and other useless processes run by people who had no right to make the technical decisions. 17:45:22 which one is that? 17:45:27 bougyman: i think you are answering a slightly different scenario than beach is suggesting 17:45:30 big corporations, beach 17:45:34 GTEi, i2, Nike. 17:45:48 i2 was the worst. 17:46:00 you couldn't even reboot without the change management board's approval. 17:46:05 bougyman: possibly, yes. Those are mostly the places where my students will work, though. 17:46:34 beach: my goal in life is to change those big'uns run. 17:46:43 the Dr Pepper cio is my first real big convert. 17:47:07 bougyman: I wish you good luck (seriously)! 17:47:14 they're moving to all asterisk phone switches this week, hired a bunch of open source people, etc. 17:47:28 -!- ivanst [i=ivans@78-1-54-82.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:31 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B772.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:47:36 it took a long time to get into a position where I have a voice with these folks, but it's coming together now. 17:47:51 bougyman: congratulations! 17:47:53 bougyman: oh, nice! 17:48:04 at a guess, that's around here somewheres 17:48:37 right now is the perfect opportunity to make headway, too, these big corp CIOs are having their budgets slashed but production is expected to stay at normal levels. 17:48:47 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:47 bougyman: I dream of taking a year off to work in the software industry to learn what they do now and to implement some of my ideas. 17:48:54 so they're open to this where 4 years ago they just did what the Vendor told them to do. 17:49:12 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.8.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:49:20 bougyman: sounds like *the* opportunity, yes! 17:49:27 an i'm in the center of more corporate HQs than I can shake a stick at, so it's just a matter of networking. 17:49:31 bougyman: there is always a bit of opportunity to do that sort of thing when belts are tightening, yes 17:49:35 the CIO exchange was ok, but more of a fluff forum. 17:49:48 xbxb [n=xb@p54A9C4A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:51 got involved with NOREX and really started getting some solid networking with the folks that make decisions. 17:49:56 i managed to convince a company to move solaris->linux that way 17:50:54 *beach* loves this discussion, even though it is not *directly* Lisp-related, but potentially so. 17:51:08 what's really dissapointing is the last place I left has done just the opposite. I had them 100% open source with in-house development and no outsourcing. 17:51:25 they're now outsourcing all dev to vietnam and buying turnkey proprietary infrastructure. 17:51:25 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 17:51:36 darn! 17:51:38 the last of my employees just quit because they dropped all ruby projects. 17:51:40 ow 17:52:03 yeah, they hired an Enterprise guy, that's what you get. 17:52:15 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 17:52:18 yup, pretty much 17:54:35 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@250.Red-83-54-15.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:54:42 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:48 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-016-253.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 17:56:16 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:57:16 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 17:57:57 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C9B.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:00:56 Aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-204-7-151.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:09 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 18:05:28 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:06:36 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E469B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:54 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 18:09:44 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:09:50 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:10:07 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-28-78.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 18:10:16 -!- vanLiempt is now known as Liempt 18:11:07 -!- Liempt is now known as vanLiempt 18:11:13 -!- vanLiempt is now known as Liempt 18:11:53 tarbo_ [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 18:11:57 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:12:44 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:13:03 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:13:16 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:14:50 kij`` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 18:18:46 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A26EFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 18:19:24 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:19:24 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:20:15 sbt [i=80fd9c4d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-20d04d2d3d5dd85e] has joined #lisp 18:20:30 -!- sbt is now known as sbt_ 18:20:57 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 18:20:59 does anybody know how to make a private member variable with CLOS? 18:21:22 bah, "private" :P 18:21:35 I believe the correct answer is "Mu!" 18:21:41 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 18:22:37 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:22:43 sbt_: don't define an accessor and you'll get about as much "protection" as you can get 18:22:43 there are no member variables in CLOS. 18:22:52 hooray, i can allocate code on separate pages 18:23:01 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43980.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:23:08 nikodemus_: nice! 18:23:12 nikodemus_: how does that help you? 18:23:13 i *think* 18:23:39 Xach: it's a step toward not having the GC move code around. 18:23:41 Xach: intel recommends it pretty strongly, and it makes preserving pointers faster 18:23:45 that too 18:24:26 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:24:39 oh, separate from non-code data? 18:24:44 nikodemus_: and toward preserving alignment on x86 (: 18:24:55 how much protection does not defining an accessor give me? 18:25:00 sbt_: none. 18:25:10 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.8.239] has joined #lisp 18:25:15 *grin* 18:25:28 Xach: yes 18:25:35 hm. so you are saying that there is no way of preventing users from modifying the internal state of the instances I'm giving them? 18:25:38 protection means having a symbol accessable from package::foo instead of package:foo 18:25:40 sbt_: It's more about specifying intent. 18:25:46 sbt_: Yup. 18:25:51 in other words I really really want to do this mode 18:25:53 sbt_: in general, yep. 18:26:05 sbt_: it's always about conveying intent. #define private public and all that. 18:26:19 (can't wait for someone to try "DRM" in CL .. heh 18:26:23 ok. we'll I guess I could live with that 18:26:27 thanks 18:26:34 sbt_: the conventional way to prevent users from messing with your instances' internals is to make things so complicated that users consider it too much work. 18:26:44 heh 18:26:48 that, or carray a big stick 18:26:48 unfortunately that affects you too 18:27:07 ClueBy4s help too 18:27:31 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb946e.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 18:27:34 I'm not kidding that much. in general, if I poke around at stuff that I'm not supposed to, I take my lumps. 18:28:26 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF225.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:31:29 smishra [n=chatzill@c-71-202-101-118.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:34 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-79.kosnet.ru] has quit ["L o v e"] 18:36:31 hey #lisp my sbcl - via slime, died with : * Argh! corrupted error depth, halting 18:36:31 fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 26753(tid 8440320): 18:36:31 %PRIMITIVE HALT called; the party is over. 18:36:31 18:36:34 fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 26753(tid 8407552): 18:36:37 GC invariant lost, file "thread.c", line 621 18:37:08 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 18:37:41 all my work in this image is lost, or does slime have some kind of backup i can access ? 18:38:06 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has joined #lisp 18:38:11 write your code in files 18:38:13 no backup unless you saved the lisp image 18:38:28 the slime repl buffer history should be savable, though. 18:40:05 lesson learned. playing with primes and being stupid is not safe :) 18:42:34 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 18:42:47 i run into trouble when writing or using code that use inaccurate declarations and low safety settings 18:43:13 i haven't had too much trouble otherwise, except maybe when accidentally using a lot of memory 18:43:13 -!- kij`` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:43:47 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:43:54 -!- sbt_ [i=80fd9c4d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-20d04d2d3d5dd85e] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 18:44:29 kreuter: I'll do the tcr-reader-hacking split up later today, probably. 18:44:35 *Xach* wonders what happened in kij's case 18:44:47 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbc639.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:51 tcr: ok. I'll have time to test and commit over the weekend. 18:46:13 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 18:48:17 -!- tarbo_ [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:50:15 Xach: too many prime numbers? 18:50:24 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:52:54 -!- pierre__thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:53:49 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@96.237.135.36] has quit [] 18:54:09 time to go home, bye 18:54:11 -!- nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:57:15 sbt_ has left, right? 19:00:44 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:52 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:29 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4c526ccf07d4120c] has joined #lisp 19:02:54 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:07:16 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:07:38 jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:22 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:48 friday evening? 19:11:20 yes. 19:11:54 thanks for the answer. it was so quiet I thought I wasn't online anymore. 19:12:23 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:13 -!- ahaas_ is now known as ahaas 19:14:16 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:16:51 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 19:18:17 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-28-78.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:20:11 ehu: Are you going to hack *inspector-hook* into abcl? 19:20:34 If so, I'd like to add an note about that into the final form of the cdr 19:20:36 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:20:45 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.76] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:21:09 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:22:51 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 19:22:57 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 19:23:18 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 19:27:25 tcr: yea, why not? I think the cost is low. 19:28:56 only 10 dolla, for you, 5 dolla :P 19:29:11 dcrawford: lol 19:40:17 tsv [n=tsv@92-237-136-172.cable.ubr16.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:41:36 plutonas [n=plutonas@kr-lun-153-158-233-83.3.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:31 lukego [n=lukegorr@72.37.205.4] has joined #lisp 19:42:42 yo lukego 19:42:49 howdy 19:43:14 -!- l4ndfo_ is now known as l4ndfo 19:46:27 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:47:15 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54A9C4A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:49:34 ths [n=ths@X4c7f.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:13 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:53:06 willb1 [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:53:46 esden__ [i=esdentem@atradig141.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 19:54:59 ehu: are you still having svn issues on cl-net? 19:55:16 elurin [n=user@85.99.132.149] has joined #lisp 19:58:02 drewc: definitely. 19:58:21 ehu: can you outline them and send an email to admin@ 19:58:54 Is there a destructive last/rest/cdr function? 19:59:04 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 19:59:04 rplacd 19:59:14 pop? 19:59:15 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 19:59:29 Wow I feel dumb, thanks Xach 19:59:32 pop's not a function. 19:59:46 nor is it descructive. 19:59:56 ehu pasted "c-l.net svn commit failure traceback" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68277 19:59:57 drewc wins. 20:00:01 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:03 It was a mad stab in the dark at an odd question. 20:00:10 But I can peek inside and make what I want 20:00:14 *Xach* can't rightly comprehend what a "destructive rest" might do. 20:00:33 H4ns: around? 20:00:39 I'm thinking the opposite of nbutlast 20:00:42 drewc: does that help? 20:00:48 so, nlast 20:00:56 ehu: indeed, gives me some idea anyway. 20:01:13 drewc: what would it destructively modify? 20:01:16 sorry, Draggor. 20:01:52 Xach: fwiw i don't know either :P 20:03:05 nlast? you mean nthcdr? 20:03:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:03:27 I think that's it 20:03:42 Draggor: i'm still curious what data structure might be changed in the operation 20:04:27 right, singly linked lists built from conses only point forward. 20:05:08 a cons cell does not know what came 'before' it, so there is no pointer to modify, unless you wanted to remove the tail from the list? 20:05:34 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 20:05:49 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 20:06:12 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:06:26 ie: (let* ((foo (list 1 2 3 4)) (bar (nlast 2 foo))) (values foo bar)) => (1 2) (3 4) 20:07:09 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 20:08:33 -!- djinni`` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:08:45 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 20:09:16 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.132.149] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:09:26 elurin [n=user@85.99.132.149] has joined #lisp 20:09:31 djinni` [n=djinni`@ludios.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:32 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 20:10:11 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:13 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:21 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@72.37.205.4] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:10 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:12:28 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 20:12:56 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 20:14:22 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:58 -!- smishra [n=chatzill@c-71-202-101-118.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 20:15:20 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:15:55 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Client Quit] 20:16:11 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:16:26 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:16:43 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 20:17:42 blx [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:20:17 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:38 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 20:20:53 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-156-109.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:22:10 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:50 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:27:28 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:27:32 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:29:13 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:18 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 20:30:51 -!- tsv [n=tsv@92-237-136-172.cable.ubr16.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk] has left #lisp 20:31:39 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 20:32:35 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone!"] 20:33:50 Draggor: seems like you're looking for nsubseq; there's no such thing provided by ANSI, but it's in pjb's cl utilities 20:34:21 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.132.149] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:35:19 screw that, I didn't read correcty 20:37:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:38:52 elurin [n=user@85.99.132.149] has joined #lisp 20:40:28 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:42:39 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 20:43:23 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [No route to host] 20:48:32 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:24 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:50:53 -!- ecraven [n=nex@cm56-211-173.liwest.at] has quit ["bbl"] 20:51:07 does anybody have an opinion whether || is required to parse as an integer? 20:51:31 AFAICT, it is an (empty) sequence of digits. 20:52:51 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 20:53:04 |9| isn't an integer, why would ||? 20:53:12 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:53:21 oh, wait, 2.3.1 requires that there be at least one digit. 20:54:05 -!- truebosko [n=truebosk@KTNRON06-1168106520.sdsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:54:44 foom: |9| isn't allowed to be parsed as a digit, because there's an escaped character in there. there aren't any escaped characters in || 20:55:21 what about ||9 20:55:47 wouldn't that just be || 9 ? 20:56:04 wait, I misread. it's not escapeD characters, it's escape characters 20:56:20 never mind me. 20:57:25 kreuter: oh good. that would be an unfortunate spec bug 20:57:48 aw, it'd be fun if || parsed to, say, a random integer! 20:58:25 but how would (intern "") print?! 20:58:37 -!- blx [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has left #lisp 20:58:55 um... 20:59:03 : 20:59:15 rather, : 20:59:17 :) 21:00:33 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:02:18 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 21:03:41 lukego [n=lukegorr@72.37.205.4] has joined #lisp 21:04:19 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has quit ["The symbol is not the same as the reality"] 21:07:50 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:08:01 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:05 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.132.149] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:20 elurin [n=user@85.99.132.149] has joined #lisp 21:09:49 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@kr-lun-153-158-233-83.3.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:08 -!- Aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-204-7-151.acanac.net] has left #lisp 21:13:14 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:15:54 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:15:58 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086140.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 21:17:11 -!- enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:17:45 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2F9F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:19:21 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-59-5.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:24 :: 21:19:37 enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:48 ::|| 21:20:09 ugh whatever, not typing 21:21:29 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["eaten by grue"] 21:22:50 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 21:23:11 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.8.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:45 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.65.184] has joined #lisp 21:24:38 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEACC17.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:25:59 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:27:31 is python the next lisp? "I can't stand the whitespace" 21:27:44 maybe not 21:27:58 i thought common lisp was the next lisp, or maybe scheme 21:31:43 python is similar to lisp in that sense that superficial people only see the whitespace as a problem and look no deeper 21:31:55 quite similar to how people react to parentheses in lisp 21:32:15 i'm quite superficial, but the parenthesis are nice 21:32:30 Yes, I suppose you've gotten used to 'em. 21:32:33 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:32:35 maybe whitespace is nice too. what would their unholy offspring look like? 21:32:45 how do they explain the popularity of ruby and perl with those scary random symbols, then, eh? 21:32:59 Probably like the combination of whitespace and brainfuck. :) 21:33:11 i liked the parentheses when first i saw them 21:33:14 I read some nice perl code the other day and decided it might be fun to program in. 21:33:29 It's not as bad as its reputation of being line noise 21:33:39 I've done several quite readable perl programs. 21:33:52 I'm writing one right now... 21:34:02 It's no different than other languages, you write garbage, it let's you; you write elegant code, it let's you 21:34:13 lets 21:34:17 not let's 21:34:46 in soviet russia, your lexical variable let's you 21:34:55 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:36:02 Anyway.. I remember the times when I tried editing lisp without emacs. Then the parentheses can become annoying. 21:36:16 I'd have gone for "in soviet russia, your variable binds you", but that's neither here nor there 21:36:29 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb946e.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:36:45 Or, to be more specific, editing lisp without a show-paren-capable editor, whether emacs or something else. 21:37:13 I think intelligent indentation is required as well 21:37:18 Trues. 21:37:20 -s 21:37:24 Bloody hell. :) 21:37:37 notepad is out, surely. 21:37:58 You can write python with notepad, though. :) 21:38:12 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:15 but can you write notepad with python? 21:41:10 I can probably write a whole lot of things, but not notepad - it has a user interface and that's not my forte. :) 21:43:22 V-ille: You are rambling. 21:43:52 "It's no different than other languages" 21:44:03 this suggests languages are equivalent in that respect 21:44:05 that is false. 21:44:33 -!- soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:35 The reason must be one of 1) trying to find out what's wrong with abcl pushnew/pop/push 2) alcohol consumption. The reason for rambling, that is. 21:44:35 howdy, salex 21:45:10 hey Krystof. I saw your email. I'm just about to head out... 21:45:32 my meeting was pushed to tomorrow, so i'll muddle trhough without running it by him 21:45:34 V-ille: In either case, I would suggest not rambling. 21:45:48 ok. I'm pretty sure my conclusion is correct, just from thinking about what the forward probabilities mean 21:46:04 anyway, short answer: i agree, we could have ended up the same place, i'll try and work it ot the same probabliliteis 21:46:26 okay 21:46:56 it looks that way anyway. so modulo that i'm happy with the formulation. 21:47:05 i'll try and check it this evening 21:47:06 chandler: fair enough. The push/pop/pushnew works with our current patches, but we have an interesting bootstrap problem 21:47:34 our fasl build doesn't like environment params given to the aforementioned macros 21:47:35 Krystof: this should be easy enough to code. And it will give *something* 21:48:24 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:48:26 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:50 then again, if we build everything else with previous versions of those macros and then do an incremental build, everything works 21:49:29 *sladegen* blames butterflies. 21:49:36 i'm not sure i've got my head entirely around precisely what the sample is being drawn from, given that evertihng is an estimate (ie, does this stuff behave in a nice way asymptotically, etc.) 21:50:29 i'm trying to get a job application thingy together (way more writing than I expected) and another thing too, so haven't been able to pick this up again yet. 21:50:36 shame, 'cause it's more fun 21:51:10 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:52:22 anyway, meeting in 10 so i'll talk to you about it later 21:53:12 (maybe i'm overcomplicating things, btw) 21:53:30 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:26 Does anyone know if there are prebuilt 1.2 clozure dmgs? 22:00:06 no, I don't think there are prebuilt dmgs of the IDE 22:00:12 you might want to ask about that in #ccl 22:00:23 -!- scottj [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has left #lisp 22:01:52 rpg: any pre-built stuff would be in ftp.clozure.com:/pub/release/1.2 22:03:59 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:22 Thanks. Note that the wiki instructions for installation link to /pub/testing, which paradoxically seems to have older versions.... 22:04:33 -!- enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:04:57 I suppose I should probably report this to someone.... 22:05:28 rpg: I got it. Consider it reported. 22:05:59 Thanks. Sorry, my xchat window is so ugly I can't read your id... 22:06:11 X under MacOS... 22:07:06 Ah. I see --- those are not actual dmgs as in testing... But still the testing link seems a little out-of-date... 22:09:31 Actually references to testing seem to permeate the wiki docs. 22:10:15 enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:22 Are you looking at the trac wiki or at the manual? 22:11:43 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 22:11:54 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 22:12:02 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:12:05 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:34 rme, http://ccl.clozure.com/manual 22:14:11 rme, At any rate, am I correct in assuming that there are no disk images for 1.2? I can build, of course, just am lazy and prefer not to... 22:14:44 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-28-78.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 22:15:24 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-71-194-156-206.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:15:30 rme, Actually, I started from the trac wiki, and it tranferred me to the manual by the link to Obtaining, Installing, and Running Clozure CL 22:15:57 rpg: Looks like no pre-built images, sorry. I'll make corrections to the manual. 22:16:20 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-28-78.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:17:00 rme, That's fine. Just glad it wasn't a stupid question, and that this will lead to fixes that help everyone. Thanks! 22:17:03 (require 'cocoa-application) isn't *that* hard... 22:17:04 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-28-78.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:17:14 rme: we should probably just make dmgs for 1.2 22:18:18 wow, more Clozurians. Is there a secret plot to take over the channel from the SBCL overlords? 22:18:19 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-28-78.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:18:30 rpg: is ftp://ftp.clozure.com/pub/release/1.2/Clozure%20CL%201.2-rc1-intel.dmg what you're looking for ? 22:19:37 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-28-78.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:19:49 chandler: apple laptop people. What can I say? 22:19:56 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 22:20:18 sykopomp: I was referring to employees of Clozure. 22:21:16 jajcloz: I'll make an Intel one, and see if gb can make a ppc one, since I don't have a ppc64 box here. 22:21:41 rme: cool 22:21:46 no offense to Clozure and CCL people, but I wish you'd all just work on SBCL :) 22:22:04 I don't! Choice is a good thing. 22:22:28 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:22:31 fe[nl]ix, Probably. I dodged it, because it said rc1 and I thought the tarballs (w/o the -rc1) were final versus release candidates. 22:22:31 We actually discussed doing that, but we also think choice is good 22:22:46 before you know it, the franz and lispworks people will be along! 22:22:59 hefner, I think folks like the increased Macish integration.... 22:23:13 chandler: in theory, sure. but until the rise of CCL, writing exclusively to SBCL sounded perfectly reasonable. 22:23:31 rpg: a small matter of programming ;) 22:23:46 rme, Do I (require 'cocoa-application) when doing the rebuild? 22:23:55 ... the rise of CCL? SBCL for OS X was bootstrapped from OpenMCL. 22:24:05 hefner, Yeah. Like the java interface that I need to wean myself from ACL.... ;-) 22:24:44 chandler: yeah, but openmcl was always a fringe mac thing. a serious implementation running on all the interesting platforms, which CCL is rapidly becoming, is an entirely different matter. 22:25:00 rpg: get distribution from svn, do (rebuild-ccl :full t), quit and restart, do (require 'cocoa-application) and that will put Clozure CL.app in your ccl directory. 22:25:19 Actually OpenMCL first ran on Linux 22:25:29 glad I switched to CCL before it was cool; gotta stay ahead of the trends *reads US magazine* 22:25:30 "fringe PPC thing", then 22:25:35 right 22:25:51 but I guess my definition of "all the interesting platforms" is smaller than hefner's :-) 22:26:22 CCL serially compiles itself multiple times on Win32 now 22:27:07 I switched and then went back 22:27:08 full native threads, precise compacting GC 22:27:16 (needed something which worked properly on ibook) 22:27:30 rme, Thanks. Worked fine. SOrry to be such a goob; I'm both a Clozure and a Mac novice. 22:27:45 -!- birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:28:10 are there plans for CCL's compiler to compete with SBCL performance for tight loops and such? 22:28:20 bye for now... 22:28:26 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:29:14 A new front-end was started - but never finished. There's so much to do... 22:30:18 does the windos version say anything absurd on startup? :) 22:30:28 heh 22:30:29 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c134-115.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:30:40 I'll pass on the feature suggestion :) 22:31:08 it was already suggested on openmcl-devel, actually 22:31:25 I bear a grudge against CCL for breaking mcclim-truetype due to its bizarre restrictions on streams and threads 22:31:47 Chibapet [n=mason@69.38.177.2] has joined #lisp 22:31:54 hefner: what, the fact that streams are thread-local by default? 22:31:57 hefner: what restrictions ? 22:32:08 rme: yeah, that. 22:32:27 life's too short to hold grudges against CL implementations! 22:32:40 Hey there. Horribly off-topic question, but, what's my best bet for following and participating in comp.lang.lisp? Do I set up a leaf node and find some provider? Is there a service I want to use? Mail-to-news gateway? 22:32:55 google groups? 22:33:08 rme: what do you mean by thread-local streams, exactly ? 22:33:37 http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter9.1.html#Additional-Open-Keywords 22:33:46 Chibapet: if your ISP doesn't provide a feed, there are several commercial providers 22:34:02 Comcast... Not sure if they do or not at present. 22:34:03 sylvander_ [n=sylvande@92.22.101.35] has joined #lisp 22:34:04 Chibapet: My ISP, Speakeasy, has a news server that I access. Your ISP may also have one. If not, there are public Usenet servers. 22:34:21 birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 22:34:30 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.132.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:59 "thread-local" is probably the wrong term to use in this case. 22:35:15 -!- dboswell [n=dave@208.177.146.111] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:35:43 rme: "thread local" sounds good to me. By default a stream can only be used by one thread 22:36:45 rme: where is that implemented ? level-1/l1-streams.lisp ? 22:38:07 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 22:38:18 fe[nl]ix: that's where I'd look, then M-. 22:40:36 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4c526ccf07d4120c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:41:14 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-67-180.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:41:58 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:42:31 Hm, I think Google Groups will work for now. Thanks for the suggestion. 22:43:22 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:44:34 -!- Chibapet [n=mason@69.38.177.2] has quit [] 22:44:41 retep [n=peter@p5B3A53FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:19 -!- retep [n=peter@p5B3A53FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 22:48:32 b4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:48:36 -!- b4 is now known as b4|hraban 22:52:15 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:52:26 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 22:53:19 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-28-78.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:21 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:57:43 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 22:58:51 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:59:20 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:59:38 -!- jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:00:00 jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:21 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:18 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:04:08 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:06:03 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:11 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-28-78.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 23:08:24 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086140.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:41 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-28-78.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:11:37 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:12:20 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:13:15 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:13:26 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 23:15:32 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:15:38 Drakej [n=Gloria@216-67-22-120-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:47 -!- Drakej [n=Gloria@216-67-22-120-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has left #lisp 23:18:36 etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:34 larrytheliquid [n=larrythe@nmd.sbx10362.wintefl.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:33 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:31 i would like to use some functions in a package without specifying that package, ie: my-function instead of my-package:my-function. is (use-package :my-package) the standard way of doing this? 23:22:27 it's one of the ways 23:23:01 most common is to :use package in DEFPACKAGE 23:23:07 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:40 the problem is that im getting conflicting symbol errors, but the symbol i would like to import is a function, while the symbol in common-lisp-user that conflicts is not a function 23:24:49 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:25:27 at first glance it doesnt seem to make sense why that would matter, because a function will always be accessed with a specific syntax, ie: (my-function) 23:25:28 larrytheliquid: symbols are symbols, and not functions or anything else 23:26:05 ya i figured... is there a way to automatically resolve the conflicts in favor of the functions im importing? 23:26:32 clhs shadow 23:26:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_shadow.htm 23:26:38 clhs shadow-import 23:26:38 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for shadow-import. 23:26:47 clhs shadowing-import 23:26:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_shdw_i.htm 23:27:41 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 23:29:31 larrytheliquid: it's possible that the conflicts are spurious, caused by you entering the code while in cl-user before the real package was used, causing useless symbols to be interned 23:29:59 larrytheliquid: also, if you're doing any real code, define your own package 23:31:42 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 23:31:48 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 23:34:38 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:45 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:55 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:41:17 I think I may have found a use for a flatten-list function/macro after all. Hah. 23:42:24 macro? why macro? 23:42:27 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 23:42:39 no idea 23:42:42 -!- etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:45:11 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B772.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:47:50 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:48:15 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 23:51:35 -!- gigamonkey` [n=user@adsl-99-179-47-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:59 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 23:55:22 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:12 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:56:26 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 23:57:41 Quimby [n=tim@cpe-024-211-243-119.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:36 -!- Quimby [n=tim@cpe-024-211-243-119.nc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp