00:01:46 -!- JHJones [n=user@h216-18-7-4.gtconnect.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:19 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:05:42 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 00:06:15 Newlisper [n=lqdshado@75-132-41-59.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:07:26 Hello! I am having a hard time looking around on the web for a comparison between bknr and huchentoot. Can anyone give me a brief comparison of these two projects? Or perhaps they have different specific goals? 00:07:46 bknr uses hunchentoot 00:08:56 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:08:57 Oh okay. I must have misunderstood at some point. What part does Huchentoot play in BKNR? (Maybe I do not know what they are or how they can help me.) 00:09:17 web server, obviously 00:09:47 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:09:58 So Huchentoot is the webserver itself, and BKNR deals with the processing of the request and response? 00:10:28 i haven't used bknr myself 00:12:53 xristos [n=xristos@93-97-209-126.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:13:40 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:14:05 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:14:58 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 00:15:04 -!- cpape [n=user@p5484FD98.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:16:42 mrtsunami [n=tsunami@adsl-157-137-22.cae.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:55 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:19:03 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:19:13 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 00:20:20 Newlisper, hunchentoot deals with more low-level http stuff .. like request, response, get/post data, cookies, headers in/out etc. .. it's a "http application server" (i think that is the term when you have direct access to most of the http internals etc.) 00:20:46 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:21:39 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 00:22:06 ..while i haven't used bknr, judging by the 3 points on the front-page; it deals with higher-level things above "http stuff" .. like persistance, session-handling, html templating etc. 00:22:27 persistence* .. ugh .. i can't spell 00:26:39 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:28:34 disumu [n=disumu@p57A24624.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:38 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:37 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:31:03 Thanks for the info, folks. :) 00:31:15 -!- Newlisper [n=lqdshado@75-132-41-59.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit ["More reading to do."] 00:32:59 -!- anekos__ is now known as awayekos 00:35:52 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:36:20 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Gone"] 00:36:59 -!- prip [n=_prip@host9-123-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:14 prip [n=_prip@host193-177-dynamic.61-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:38:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:39:47 It seems the slime mailing list is broken. Or is it just me? 00:40:17 *Xach* hasn't seen messages in a day or two 00:40:49 Xach: Hi! Since oct 3, according to gmane. 00:41:28 I think the daily changelog diff cron job does not fire if there are no changes, so I'm not sure if the silence is normal or not. 00:42:09 Well, except I sent 2 messages. One via gmane, and one after subscribing yesterday. 00:42:50 Well, that sounds like a problem then :-) 00:43:20 -!- kleppari [n=spa@mobile-out.siminn.is] has quit ["leaving"] 00:45:27 ths_ [n=ths@X6215.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:48:07 howdy ths_ 00:48:46 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:26 we handed over ownership of slime-devel for me to helmut a few days ago, maybe something went wrong as a side-effect 00:49:59 s/for me/from me/ 00:50:26 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:50:26 It's a hint that you shouldn't have done that. :-) 00:50:35 he's flexing his iron fist 00:50:37 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:51:10 Anyway, there's a small typo in slime-editing-commands.el or something. Just grep for "(eq major ". I think it should be major-mode 00:54:32 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.62.4.250] has joined #lisp 00:56:18 -!- ths [n=ths@X44f1.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:39 -!- sebell [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1"] 01:04:27 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:07:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:08:51 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:11:22 kleppari [n=spa@85-220-66-164.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 01:12:10 hey, is there some trick to figuring out what you should put into a unit test for something? Any systematic way of going about figuring out what tests you need besides 'oh, I want -this- particular thing to work'? 01:12:17 syamajala2_ [n=syamajal@140.232.182.214] has joined #lisp 01:15:00 sounds like that's a good starting point 01:15:24 there is the idea of writing tests first 01:15:29 A coverage-measuring tool is a good way to start, though it's important not to confuse code coverage with functionality coverage. 01:15:38 so before you code the app, you know the things you want it to do 01:15:47 write tests for all those things 01:16:00 -!- syamajala2_ [n=syamajal@140.232.182.214] has quit [Client Quit] 01:16:15 run the tests often as you go along, so you know that what you've written is testable 01:16:28 spacebat: that's when you know what you want it to do 01:16:36 and that allegedly helps you write modular code with loose enough coupling 01:16:46 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:16:49 sure, sometimes you're just exploring 01:17:09 I suggest that you shouldn't explore too far without also exploring with tests 01:17:33 but that's just my ideal - I don't live up to it :) 01:18:37 right now I'm wondering, if I have a bidirectional stream, is there a way to close just the output? 01:18:56 or to otherwise send an end of file 01:19:21 because I have a subprocess I'm writing to in ECL, and I'd like to tell it when I'm finished writing 01:19:30 while still being able to read from it 01:20:07 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:41 if I make the subprocess consume just one line and then print stuff for me to read and then exit that works fine 01:21:28 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:21:50 but if it expects to consume all its standard input line by line while emitting output along the way, my parent ECL process just hangs 01:22:11 I've enabled line buffering the child process, not sure what's wrong 01:22:50 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-151-163.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:55 Flush the output after every line? 01:23:03 s/output/output stream/ 01:23:13 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has left #lisp 01:23:56 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 01:24:14 syamajala2_ [n=syamajal@140.232.179.39] has joined #lisp 01:24:30 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:24:31 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-43-247.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:25:50 -!- syamajala2_ [n=syamajal@140.232.179.39] has quit [Client Quit] 01:26:38 -!- asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:27:05 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:27:13 asdf25 [n=asdf25@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:28 does sbcl's garbage collector have any parameters i might change to get better multithreaded performance? i'm only getting a 1.3x speedup on 4 threads because it spends half the time doing gc 01:29:20 my advice is to cons less garbage 01:29:51 yeah i may have to do that... is there a tool to track where it's being generated? 01:30:04 sb-sprof can profile allocations 01:30:09 ah great 01:32:10 Making a gc run concurrently with other threads would be Hard. 01:32:24 GC is hard; let's go swapping! 01:32:55 if you could use separate unix processes instead of threads then concurrent GC would be free 01:33:06 It's the Barbie lisp implementer doll! 01:33:18 I always heard rumours of people calling fork() from Lisp, that really does seem like a promising line 01:33:25 accepting that concurrent GC is too hard, could you run the GC process itself in parallel? 01:33:46 concurrent GC is easy if you have enough heaps :) 01:34:00 ... and you don't have integergenerational pointers / pointers between nurseries 01:34:22 if you're in erlang land, you're spending the time you would have spent on gc doing marshalling of data all the time :-) 01:34:30 rtoym: yes I've been using force-output and even finish-output to no avail 01:34:33 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:51 chandler: well the messages are often so small that they're not much bigger to copy than pointers, so the folk wisdom goes 01:34:51 lukego, with separate unix processes, you've the problem of that the expressions are not in shared-memory 01:34:58 spacebat: On both ends? 01:35:24 the chile writing back is flushed each line 01:35:27 child 01:35:41 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-3a4cb45e8c890ec5] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:36:07 lukego: is the copying the cause or effect of that, I wonder? 01:36:12 is there another output flush function other than force-output? 01:37:12 spacebat: finish-output 01:38:16 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:38:59 is there any merit to my jab in the direction of erlang that there's no point in making concurrency easy if a precondition to that is making it impossible to write efficient software? 01:39:42 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:39:55 hefner: there're lots of erlang systems in the wild kicking the pants off the competition in performance. so not obviously 01:39:59 spacebat: What about the parent writing to the child? 01:40:54 anyway, my limited experience doing multicore stuff in SBCL has been good (except for having to work extra hard to minimize consing) - it's a really gorgeous thing being able to just capture a closure and invoke it in four different threads. 01:41:34 lukego: heh. I will dispute that, but I won't go into details. Sufficite it to say that it is possible to make concurrent programming both easier to write and more efficient than Erlang, without introducing mutable shared state. 01:41:34 sounds to me like a moment of convenience, a lifetime of regret. but that was my final jab :) 01:41:40 this is for simple number crunching things, granted 01:42:32 Xach: the problem is, this is a bidirectional stream and I'd like to continue reading from it - will finish-output prevent that? 01:42:39 hefner: okay yes number crunching isn't for erlang 01:42:41 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:42:53 rtoym: after I write a line to the stream I call force-output on it 01:42:57 wings3d notwithstanding :) 01:43:42 hmm, I guess there's two extremes, heterogenous "concurrent" systems and homogenous "parallel" systems. 01:43:59 spacebat: i don't think it will have any effect on input. 01:44:06 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:44:20 lukego: wings3d is the coolest thing ever. certainly the coolest erlang thing. :) 01:44:37 spacebat: If you're doing that on both ends, then I don't know what else to do. Are the lines short or long (> 4K)? 01:44:38 it doesn't seem to work though, I call finish-output but the parent/child go into deadlock 01:44:46 short lines 01:44:59 this is ECL using ext:run-program 01:45:04 I' 01:45:14 I'll keep digging, thanks guys :) 01:45:25 I've never used ecl and run-program. 01:45:41 I'm trying to get shelisp.lisp to work with ECL 01:45:49 I like the idea of a lispy shell 01:45:59 I'd use librep but I like common lisp 01:46:00 *rtoym* would start sprinkling the code with prints to see where the deadlock happens. 01:46:36 yes, and then strace it, I'll do that tonight 01:46:49 -!- vanLiempt is now known as Liempt 01:47:34 johnnystyle [n=john@c-24-61-247-113.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:44 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:53:25 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:02 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:54:21 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:54:32 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:36 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 01:57:58 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:56 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 02:08:18 Can I do the equivilent of using #include on a header file with CFFI? 02:09:48 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:14:53 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 02:15:08 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 02:22:52 larrytheliquid [n=larrythe@169.157.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:11 mogunus: if you're using grovel, then yes - http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#index-include-141 02:24:01 -!- xristos [n=xristos@93-97-209-126.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:22 -!- housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:26:41 housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 02:28:33 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:29:17 xjrn_ [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:04 -!- housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:30:41 housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 02:34:00 -!- housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:34:37 housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 02:35:03 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 02:36:13 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A24624.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 02:36:18 -!- housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:36:54 housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 02:39:10 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:39:21 -!- housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:39:38 housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 02:42:46 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:43:13 -!- housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:43:30 housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 02:44:50 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:46:52 -!- housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:47:08 housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 02:48:51 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Success] 02:49:45 -!- housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:50:02 housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 02:50:20 what's up with housel... 02:50:31 sykopomp: was wondering that myself 02:50:50 dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 02:50:50 sykopomp: btw, think I have a workable solution for lisp<->breve 02:51:01 oh really now? 02:51:10 is this the rewrite, or the bindings? 02:51:36 Yeah. Basically, the reason I was having so much trouble binding it before, is the internal interface to add a language SUCKS HORRIBLY 02:51:43 And assumes that you have a language with no REPL 02:52:06 this is not a 'yes/no' question. :P 02:52:12 s/is/was/ 02:52:14 So I'm using the plugin interface instead. 02:52:16 The bindings. 02:52:19 ah k 02:52:43 I'm still putting it through a re-write, but I'm in lee's class right now and don't have time to finish it. 02:52:52 And I really, really hate steve. 02:53:39 hahaha 02:54:06 You have no idea. It's like pathologically object oriented assembler language. 02:54:13 -!- mrtsunami [n=tsunami@adsl-157-137-22.cae.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:55:57 If anyone wants to play with bleeding-edge software, there are experimental 32- and 64-bit Windows versions of ccl in the trunk now. See http://clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2008-October/008544.html 02:57:16 rme: what's the threading situation on win32? 02:58:03 We use native os threads via a nasty hack, but the current hack may change. 02:58:38 rme: If i might be one to say so ... "You da man!" 02:59:09 I didn't do anything on the Windows side; it was all Gary Byers. 02:59:17 jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:59:41 well, i've told that to gb in the past, so no need to pass it on :) 02:59:58 heh 03:00:13 is ccl prone to stillbirth with complaints about mmapping address space, in the same way as sbcl? 03:01:29 What happens to sbcl? 03:02:39 it doesn't run? 03:05:29 QinGW [n=user@220.231.9.237] has joined #lisp 03:07:20 I run slime under ubuntu 8.04,but "Don't know how to require sb-bsd-sockets" was reported 03:08:43 -!- staffordrootbeer [n=chatzill@nat/yahoo/x-62a2ad640c9a98c5] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:10:34 QinGW: does SBCL_HOME point to the sbcl home, and does home contain sb-bsd-sockets directory? 03:11:10 the default home directory is /usr/local/lib/sbcl/ 03:11:21 How to create sb-bsd-sockets directory? 03:11:35 I have set sbcl home. 03:12:15 you need not only directory, but its content 03:13:07 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:13:28 gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has joined #lisp 03:13:35 QinGW: how did you install sbcl? 03:13:53 build from source. 03:14:07 It's okay under term. 03:14:28 and then ./install.sh? 03:14:33 but I can't start server. 03:14:47 ok, I'll try. 03:18:49 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:20:42 Ugh. Can I get some advice on this: I have a C program that needs to query a running lisp image with data, incrementally. It has a plugin interface that I'm trying to use. When I use defccallback, do I get a c source file that I can compile? 03:21:25 -!- xjrn_ is now known as xjrn 03:24:34 stassats`: I ran install.sh, but the sb-bsd-sockets dir what you said that can't be found.Error is still. 03:24:44 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:25:45 i have a lisp file that uses #'load to load another file. the first file uses a package defined in the loaded file. this all works fine when i load the first file in slime, but when i use "compile-and-load" then i get an undefined package error... any idea why regular load finds the package but compile-and-load does not? 03:25:59 Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 03:27:40 I found sb-bsd-sockets directory in source dir. 03:27:51 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 03:28:21 jolby [n=joel@c-67-168-78-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:26 QinGW: and not in the installed directory? 03:28:44 staffordrootbeer [n=chatzill@74.220.198.237] has joined #lisp 03:28:48 yes,I install sbcl under my home dir. 03:29:36 I run INSTALL_ROOT=/home/myname sh install.sh successfully. 03:29:38 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:30:27 but sb-bsd-sockets is still in contrib of source dir. 03:30:44 -!- zbigniew_ is now known as zbigniew 03:34:41 -!- johnnystyle [n=john@c-24-61-247-113.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:36:21 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 03:36:27 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:36:43 gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has joined #lisp 03:38:43 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-43-247.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 03:43:24 -!- xbxb|afk [n=xb@p54ABF550.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:44:35 xbxb|afk [n=xb@p54ABDA09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:58 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-19-22.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:46:17 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 03:48:46 -!- zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-70-239-213-91.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["My damn controlling terminal disappeared!"] 03:50:32 Common lisp doesn't have a function to dump hash-table? Using loop macro is the easiest way to dump hash-table? 03:51:28 clhs maphash 03:51:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_maphas.htm 03:51:40 what do you mean by 'dump'? 03:53:03 stassats`: Output all of the data and structure it has. 03:53:38 tomoyuki28jp: for dumping it in the program, maphash or loop. If you want to just inspect it, though, you can use slime 03:53:40 JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:43 tomoyuki28jp: are you using slime? 03:53:44 rme: maphash is really nice. thanks :) 03:53:55 sykopomp: yes, i do 03:54:20 try C-c I and give it the name of a symbol containing a hash table. It's one of those wonderful things that make life feel good. 03:54:37 it makes me all fuzzy inside to inspect hash tables. Generic functions, too. 03:55:05 Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 03:57:42 sykopomp: oh yeah, C-c I worked wonderful :) thanks! 03:57:43 analyzing elcectrical circuits doesn't make me fuzzy inside 03:57:48 at 8am 03:58:00 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-59-5.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:58:12 good morning 03:58:14 tell that to my old electronics professor 03:58:18 morning beach 04:01:10 tomoyuki28jp: you can inspect anything <3 04:01:50 sykopomp: really nice function :) 04:03:50 -!- asdf25 [n=asdf25@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:03:56 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:50 By the way, is there a way to export all of the functions defined in the package? Or do I have to export each function manually? 04:06:00 I think it has to be manually 04:06:16 sykopomp: oh really.. thanks. 04:06:32 at least it's a good enough idea to export it manually that no one seems to use the magical export-everything button 04:06:40 I don't know, don't take it from me >_> 04:07:20 you could do do-symbols and export them if they're fboundp 04:07:29 not that I'd recommend it, of course 04:07:34 -!- JustWhie [n=chatzill@c-71-60-93-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:08:51 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:12:52 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:15:51 grfrblshntz [n=smee@68-191-176-167.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:17:37 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47F16.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:45 |eMaD| [n=_eMaD_@d198-53-139-189.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:37 -!- grfrblshntz [n=smee@68-191-176-167.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com] has quit ["Bye"] 04:27:51 -!- faheem [n=faheem@cpe-071-077-007-143.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:31:35 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 04:32:20 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E458B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:32 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-19-22.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:32:55 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:34:53 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 04:43:14 -!- |eMaD| [n=_eMaD_@d198-53-139-189.abhsia.telus.net] has left #lisp 04:45:22 I asked this question yesterday, but there were no takers, but this is a different crowd, so I'll ask again: Am I right in thinking that in SBCL, the evaluation environment is the same as the startup environment but the compilation environment is not the same as the evaluation environment? 04:46:01 And if so, that the main reason for having the first two the same is that otherwise, essentially the startup environment would have to be cloned in order to obtain the evaluation envrionment? 04:46:41 clhs 3.2.1 04:46:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ba.htm 04:47:00 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:47:00 as describe there ^ 04:47:25 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:48:41 Can I start SBCL, load a file with a bunch of callbacks in it, and then proceed to call them, from a C program? 04:48:45 aiur [n=Jan@218.109.66.37] has joined #lisp 04:48:46 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:49:38 (these are cffi callbacks) 04:53:44 mogunus: if that c program is actually a library dynamically loaded in your SBCL image 04:55:37 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-151-163.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:57:50 pkhuong: hm. It is not. 04:58:15 mogunus: callbacks are meant to be passed as C function pointers to a library. 04:58:19 pkhuong: am I SOL, or can I do something like get a pointer to my "entry point" function on SBCL startup? 04:58:28 It's not some magic CL->C compiler 05:02:33 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:48 I'm thinking entry_fn = system("sbcl --noinform --load path/to/my/functions --eval (callbacl 'entry-point)); 05:07:05 No, nevermind, that'll wait for an exit value., 05:08:59 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:12:24 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["leaving"] 05:12:36 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 05:13:03 I asked this a while ago, but I can't seem to find it in my logs: How do I take a proper word count of everything, minus ; comments, across several folders? 05:13:12 -!- larrytheliquid [n=larrythe@169.157.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:13:17 this is probably more a shell-juju kind of question, I guess >_> 05:19:18 combine wc, find, grep -l and possibly cat. 05:19:38 minus? are-you-saying-this-is-seven-words? 05:20:10 "everything minus ';' comments" 05:20:19 oh, shoot. not word count. line count. 05:20:27 sykopomp, wc -l? 05:20:40 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-83.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:20:41 tic: excluding empty lines and comments (leaving docstrings) 05:20:42 but it'd be more interesting to make a token count :) 05:20:49 i use sloccount 05:21:15 also grep -v "^\s(;?.*)$" 05:21:28 also grep -v "^\s(;.*)?$" I mean 05:22:21 or soemthing similar >_> 05:23:21 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 05:25:08 stassats`: this can't be right. Are you sure sloccount recognizes lisp files correctly? 05:27:56 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:28:49 So, can anyone tell me if I can actually use the function pointer return value of my (callback 'my-callback) function pointer from an otherwise unconnected C program? 05:29:25 (I'm getting it using popen and --eval to sbcl) 05:29:46 sykopomp: don't know 05:29:56 mogunus: what does "unconnected" mean? 05:30:07 haven't checked its output 05:30:21 beach: the program is not a library that I have loaded into SBCL 05:30:37 beach: all I have is a critical function pointer that I got using an initial (callback) call 05:30:46 And piped to my C program 05:31:07 mogunus: you can't use a function pointer generated in one image in a different image. 05:31:31 mogunus: that's a direct consequence of the use of processes. 05:32:08 mogunus: the bit pattern of that function pointer is an address that can contain different things in different processes. 05:32:25 beach: okay. That's unfortunate. I was worried it would be that way. Ugh. 05:32:32 beach: thanks for clearing that up. 05:33:58 Is there a way to effectively use a lisp program as a library for a C program, with cffi (or really any other tool that would be recommended for this) 05:34:33 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:35:31 -!- QinGW [n=user@220.231.9.237] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:35:38 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:01 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:08 mogunus: some Lisp implementations were designed with that purpose in mind. 05:36:22 mogunus, ECL? 05:37:26 huangjs` [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:38:58 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:39:06 hjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:40:18 *sykopomp* loves lisp 05:42:22 xhanjian [n=Jan@218.109.76.145] has joined #lisp 05:44:53 tic: okay. looks like i need to use c:build-shared-library, but I'm unsure how to use the output of that in my C program? 05:46:30 I've not compiled a lib for C, but I'd guess you'd define your prototypes in a header, and tell your linker where your lisp-generated-library is? mogunus 05:49:35 hans [n=H4ns@p57A0CC8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:34 common-lisp.net is going down for maintenance now. will be back up in a few hours 05:51:25 what is this #1=(foo . #1#) notation called? does it create an infinite list? 05:51:56 chrisdone: it's a reader macro. 05:51:59 clhs #= 05:52:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm 05:52:29 chrisdone: #= and ## are dispatching reader macro characters. ( is a simple reader macro character. 05:52:50 chrisdone: it doesn't create an infinite list, but a circular list. 05:53:07 chrisdone: remember; you don't have an infinite memory size. 05:53:19 QinGW [n=user@220.231.9.237] has joined #lisp 05:54:07 I run slime under emacs. "Socket error in "bind" 99(cannot assign requested address)" 05:54:36 -!- aiur [n=Jan@218.109.66.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:54:44 If I can assign another address manually. 05:55:02 C-u M-x slime RET perhaps? 05:55:21 pjb: well, when I say "infinite" I don't really mean "literally going on forever", otherwise what would "infinite loop" mean? 05:56:08 chrisdone: an infinite loop is infinite in time, but we don't have an infinite time in this universe either, so you're right ;-) 05:56:31 pjb: how might #1=(programmable . #1#) be used? 05:57:05 pjb:not work for me. 05:57:29 chrisdone: for example, (mapcar (function list) '(lisp is a programmable programming language) '#1=(programmable . #1#)) 05:57:39 chrisdone: one application a colleague of mine wrote used a circular list of notes #1=(c d e f g a b . #1#) 05:57:43 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:08 QinGW: it really means you already have a process on that address. Try: netstat -tnp 05:58:51 chrisdone: it can be used for circular buffer: you don't need to compute (mod i (length buffer)), just cdr down the list forever. 05:58:55 pjb: what would that evaluate to? ((programmable lisp) (programmable is) ...)? 05:59:03 chrisdone: yes. 05:59:39 pjb: I see. I'm familiar with the concept of Haskell's infinite lists, which I think is much the same idea 06:00:02 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:00:31 -!- invisio [n=some0ne@ip70-185-96-119.ga.at.cox.net] has left #lisp 06:00:37 chrisdone: I don't know Haskell, but I think they are very different. Typically, in lazy languages you represent a list by a rule to compute the next element which is triggered automatically when you need that element. 06:01:15 chrisdone: that way you can get "infinite" lists of for instance all integers, all prime numbers, etc. as long as you only look at a finite prefix. 06:01:39 chrisdone: circular lists, on the other hand, can only contain a finite number of distinct element. 06:02:06 can someone with a common-lisp.net account please try to log in and let me know if it works? thanks! 06:02:33 -!- hans is now known as H4nsX 06:02:45 -!- QinGW [n=user@220.231.9.237] has left #lisp 06:03:03 beach: some infinite lists may be represented as circular structures in the underlying implementation 06:03:07 (it should not work) 06:03:16 beach: well, the list of notes, #1=(c d e f g a b . #1#) would be something like { notes = "cdefgab" ++ notes } 06:03:42 H4nsX: I might have forgotten my password (but I don't think so), but it keeps asking me for a password. 06:04:05 H4nsX: for me2 06:04:06 it's more like a = [[...],[...],[...]]; a.push(a) 06:04:21 where [] creates a mutable array structure 06:04:54 although that is clearly different, maybe looking at it from a C sll view :-) 06:05:09 pkhuong: I know, I implemented a lazy language that could do that for some infinite lists. 06:05:12 that is, the tail connects back to the head 06:05:36 beach: I see the difference, though. circular lists do not compute new values, infinite lists can? 06:05:52 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 06:05:58 tcr/beach: thank you! i have disabled user logins so that nothing is changed while we rsync. will be a few hours. 06:06:21 beach: i think that if you naturally translate the #1=(...) idiom to a pure/lazy language, the sharing (usually) introduced by let will naturally achieve the same effect. 06:06:32 H4nsX: i can still log in. 06:06:39 H4nsX: am i special? 06:06:42 drewc: you're one of the few 06:06:43 :) 06:06:46 pstickne: In Lisp it would be (setf (cdr (last list)) list), or if you old-fashioned, (rplacd (last list) list) 06:07:09 I fail :) 06:07:38 but it's simply the case the data-structure loops, not that it's lazily evaluated ... as has been said :p 06:09:43 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.218.197] has joined #lisp 06:10:41 what is a function which returns the first n elements of a list? 06:11:14 (subseq list 0 n) 06:11:23 thanks 06:11:30 chrisdone: lists are sequences, so sequences functions work too. 06:11:43 (vectors are sequences too, and strings are vectors). 06:12:18 Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 06:12:37 I tried to use subseq on a circular list but it appears it works out the length in advance 06:12:47 (subseq '#1=(c d e f g a b #1#) 0 10) => The bounding indices 0 and 10 are bad for a sequence of length 8. 06:13:11 Yes, subseq works only on proper lists... 06:13:23 I see 06:13:33 Is that clisp? 06:13:40 You can define your own function without the same checks/limitations. 06:13:45 well, is there a function which returns the first n elements of any list which can be walked by mapcar? 06:13:50 it's SBCL 06:14:25 (let ((list '#1=(c d e f g a b #1#))) (loop repeat n for item in list collect item)) 06:15:05 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:10 Oops. Sorry chrisdone but this is not a circular list! It has only 8 elements. 06:15:17 chrisdone: you forgot a dot. 06:15:27 oh, oops 06:15:28 (let ((n 10) (list '#1=(c d e f g a b . #1#))) (loop repeat n for item in list collect item)) 06:15:52 (subseq '#1=(c d e f g a b . #1#) 0 10) => (C D E F G A B C D E) 06:16:15 it would seem that circular lists are proper lists too 06:17:38 The glosary says: proper list n. A list terminated by the empty list. (The empty list is a proper list.) See improper list. 06:17:56 chrisdone: so a circular list is not a proper list, because it is not terminated by an empty list. 06:18:08 so therefore subseq works on improper lists 06:18:16 qrkz [n=martink@c-40c070d5.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 06:18:17 pjb: maybe if you keep searching far enough.... :-) 06:18:43 chrisdone: yes, but not officially :-) 06:18:44 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:18:53 pstickne: indeed, if you have enough time... 06:19:01 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-58-55.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:19:35 chrisdone: the point is that an implementation could use some strange algorithm with which it wouldn't work. But happily, the simpliest algorithm just work also on circular lists. 06:19:57 chrisdone: the spec doesn't require an implementation to check whether the sequence is proper. 06:20:23 "Should be prepared to signal an error of type type-error if sequence is not a proper s" 06:20:25 chrisdone: but the spec does require the sequence to be proper, so when you use it that way, your program is not conform. 06:20:35 chrisdone: also, note that subseq is an accessor: (let ((list (list 'a 'b 'c 'd 'e 'f 'g 'h))) (setf (subseq list 2 4) '(1 2 3 4)) list) 06:20:43 "...equence." 06:21:35 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 06:21:47 -!- qrkz [n=martink@c-40c070d5.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 06:21:57 Trying to write to an overlapping range in a circular list would have unpredictible results since it's not specified in what order the range is copied. 06:23:58 what is an overlapping range? 06:24:37 isn't setf subseq defined in terms of replace, and doesn't replace actually specify in what order the range is copied? 06:25:10 hm, maybe not 06:29:19 chrisdone: a range that is longer than the period of the circular list. 06:34:14 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:45:44 kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:47:46 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:48:17 -!- te [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-0af6f39c7ef0c7dd] has quit ["leaving"] 06:51:34 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:51:54 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:52:47 kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:52:57 -!- Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:58:35 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:59:43 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:00:18 is there anybody who has used f2cl in any application? it seems f2cl only has GPL license... 07:00:32 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 07:00:35 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has left #lisp 07:00:37 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 07:00:53 common-lisp.net is down? 07:02:33 where the code f2cl generates is not GPLed (i suppose) but loading the code depends on two files of it. 07:03:38 -!- QV [n=viosys@cpe-24-175-17-39.elp.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:05:43 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.228.193] has joined #lisp 07:05:58 hi all 07:06:04 what's happening to common-lisp.net? 07:06:20 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:06:21 temp. rsync maint. or something :) 07:06:27 hjs: then it looks like you have a funny dependency issue there :) 07:06:40 Ogedei: H4nsX said a few hours IIRC 07:06:51 sykopomp: exactly... 07:07:17 hjs: are those two specific files GPLd? 07:08:01 sykopomp: I can't find them in the doc. So I suppose they have the same license of the package. 07:08:34 hjs: then I guess you may have to e-mail the author for a clarification. But you can figure out what it implies >_> 07:08:57 sykopomp: yeah, I'm writing the email. 07:09:10 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:09:11 pstickne: cool, I won't panic then 07:09:16 good luck. For something like f2cl, I'd expect something a bit more permissive :( 07:09:18 QV [n=viosys@cpe-24-175-17-39.elp.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:10:07 any clnet admins around? 07:10:08 nikodemus, memo from kpreid: I'm not particularly wild about the cl:load hacking either. Does passing in a stream preserve source location info, though? 07:10:08 nikodemus, memo from kpreid: thought: if we don't expose #! handling as a LOAD option, we should expose it as a separate function so that one can load a script when one already has an image up (say for debugging) 07:10:13 Maxima uses f2cl and Maxima is GPL'd. Does that mean something? 07:10:36 it means Maxima is GPL'd 07:11:04 ask the author. even if you -do- have to GPL it right now, they may have just not thought about it. They might fix it up or give you an exception, etc. 07:11:18 common-lisp.net http seems down, and ssh key has changed 07:11:25 sykopomp: ok, thanks for the suggestion. 07:11:34 it's always worth contacting the authors. It's not like this licensing stuff is set in stone. Plus, the copyright holder is always able to license stuff individually beyond the GPL terms. 07:11:48 that seems to be something a lot of people don't really remember >_> 07:12:21 minion, memo for kpreid: source locations are not generally there for LOAD at all, IIRC 07:12:21 Remembered. I'll tell kpreid when he/she/it next speaks. 07:15:54 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:16:42 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:18:30 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:22:30 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:23:34 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:23:41 QinGW [n=user@220.231.9.237] has joined #lisp 07:24:57 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:24:57 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:25:32 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:43 Can I set a default work directory for slime loading lisp file instead of current directory of emacs running? 07:25:48 ,cd 07:26:08 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-126-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 07:26:22 hm, did ssh access to common-lisp.net just go baibai? 07:26:38 lnostdal: down for maintenance for a few hour. we're migrating to a new machine 07:26:45 ok! :) 07:27:37 oh, i should read the backlog before asking away 07:27:38 -!- H4nsX changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . common-lisp.net down for maintenance, back up 5pm CET (est.) 07:27:52 H4nsX: heh, throw something up on the login page :p 07:28:07 pstickne: there is no logins presently 07:28:15 H4nsX: at all? nice :) 07:34:55 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:06 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:35:16 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 07:36:44 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:42:34 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:45:31 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:48:13 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:49:18 gzip4_ [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has joined #lisp 07:49:50 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has joined #lisp 07:50:16 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:53:38 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:57:39 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.228.193] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:58:51 -!- huangjs` [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:59:04 -!- hjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 07:59:18 ivanst [i=ivans@89-172-22-81.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:59:21 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 07:59:32 -!- gzip4_ [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:00:18 gzip4_ [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has joined #lisp 08:01:22 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:01:45 morning lispers 08:05:06 kiuma, good morning to you too! :-) 08:05:42 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9AF8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:11:18 apple_ide [n=apple_id@124-171-21-231.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:11:52 wow another dojo lisper :) 08:14:38 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-6-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:15:46 *ivanst* laughs :-) 08:16:29 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-193.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:18:33 currently I'm extending the dojo.dnd thing to be integrated into CLAW 08:20:06 gzip4__ [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has joined #lisp 08:20:14 -!- gzip4_ [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:24:14 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 08:25:24 plage [n=user@laptop-147-210-129-92.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:25:29 good morning 08:29:11 hi. I'm not getting the variables part in the gigamonkeys book. can anyone please tell me what is the equivalent to "x=2; print(x)" in lisp? I'm having trouble with the Let function 08:30:15 (let ((x 2)) (princ x)) 08:30:58 cool thanks 08:31:23 apple_ide, you can think of let as introducing a new local variable in a new block, i.e. {int x=2; print(x);} in C. Outside of that block, 'x' doesn't exist. 08:31:31 apple_ide: let is not a function, it's a special operator (or a macro). 08:32:02 oh okay. so thats why I get error trying to (let (x 2)) outside of a 'block' 08:32:20 "The variable X is defined but never used." 08:32:21 apple_ide, no. (let ((x 2)) ...) is the reason. 08:32:32 oh. 08:32:45 apple_ide, to few parens. (let ((x 2) (y 3)) ...) to introduce x and y 08:33:28 There's no 'statement' concept in Lisp, so you don't have to do as much assignment as in C/Java/Python. 08:33:50 ah okay. so it takes variable number of lists of label - values as arguments to the special operator let. 08:33:58 and if you do, it's often supported as a side-effect, e.g. multiple-value-bind 08:34:06 apple_ide, yes. 08:34:12 "side-effect" 08:34:14 what about global variables? 08:34:22 e.g I want to define a constant. 08:34:29 (defvar *foo* 42) 08:34:35 okay thanks 08:34:42 :) 08:34:45 that's for special variables. constants are named +my-constant+ 08:34:54 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #lisp 08:35:01 much like const int kMyConst in C++. 08:41:52 (defconstant +my-const+ 42) 08:42:28 yeah, but constants do not work as they do in c++ 08:43:19 Nothing works like in C++, but it's close enough an approximation. 08:44:16 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17DF8B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:45:17 s/like// 08:45:39 *tic* is working on a browser that seems to be working rather well. 08:45:49 O_o 08:45:55 There are myriads of browsers already 08:46:04 but they are all completely broken 08:46:14 and leak memory like a sieve, and crash, and ... 08:46:24 tic: hopefully it is written in lisp? 08:46:28 daniel, heh, you confused me there. 08:46:42 :P 08:46:43 jrockway, no, C++. I was trying to make a point re. your statement. 08:46:51 ahhh 08:46:56 i was getting my hopes up 08:47:02 tic: Then hopefully it's written in Qt with QtWebKit? 08:47:04 nopes. there are other Lisp projects. 08:47:07 i really want to write a lisp or haskell browser 08:47:14 i am so tried of the broken C and C++ ones :) 08:47:19 but writing a web browser is not trivial 08:47:24 daniel, the Linux desktop version uses Qt, yes. (Opera) 08:47:28 minion: tell jrockway about closure 08:47:32 and i think websites that don't validate deserve to break 08:47:33 jrockway: direct your attention towards closure: Closure is a free Web browser written completely in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/closure 08:47:42 so i am not a good candidate for browser writing :) 08:47:58 clojure, closure, and clozure :) 08:48:02 very confusing :) 08:49:59 tic: Ah, with "working on" you didn't mean you are programming one yourself? 08:50:11 -!- envi^office is now known as envi_orz 08:50:56 daniel, I am, but not alone. :-) 08:51:23 Does that mean that you're an Opera employee? 08:51:26 Indeed. 08:51:40 Ok, that makes that clearer to me. 08:53:45 I'm happy to confuse. 08:54:16 We need to rename Closure. 08:54:59 "Waterdog"? 08:55:09 make it a Lambda sign and call it "The Browser Formerly Known as Closure" 08:56:23 plage: i like that 08:56:40 <_8david> "Dead Project That Hardly Anyone Uses At all" should also be fine 08:57:45 So we have a choice between TBFKAC and DPTHAUAA. 08:57:56 <_8david> (Please don't ruin the closure-xml, closure-html, closure-/foo/ naming scheme!) 08:58:03 _8david: So what do you suggest? 08:58:29 How about "Closer"? :) 08:58:43 <_8david> Well, I like "closure". 08:58:49 -!- QinGW [n=user@220.231.9.237] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:59:04 I didn't mean the name, but what to do about the fact that the project is dead and that nobody uses it. 08:59:34 daniel: closer is already the name of Pascal Costanza's MOP project. 08:59:42 plage: use it! 08:59:49 <_8david> Ah. Well, I'm actually using it daily to counter that fact. 09:00:00 H4ns: I didn't complain. 09:00:08 -!- kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@84.14.121.138] has left #lisp 09:00:17 _8david: Really! For what? 09:00:21 <_8david> I just don't think it's worth much attention as a general-purpose browser, just as an occasional HTML renderer. 09:01:03 <_8david> plage: as an HTML renderer, to read Planet Lisp and my work email (using clim-alerts) 09:01:31 I see. 09:05:59 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-58-55.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 09:06:04 zbrahead91 [i=5c2b4207@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-72b8d78f327929df] has joined #lisp 09:06:42 Hello? 09:06:50 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:03 Hello! 09:07:20 Do you know where a PDF of PCL is -.- 09:07:32 no 09:07:36 on google? 09:07:38 I hear there is one available, but it has disappeared D: 09:07:47 lol, ivanst 09:07:56 I tried searching his site. 09:08:00 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 09:08:37 lol ivanst, your win is epic \o/ 09:08:56 I can't believe I did not think of that -.- 09:08:56 user__ [n=user@p54923ABC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:02 sorry, i spent far too much time on #php... 09:09:17 where that type of answer actually is valid and a new viewpoint for most of the visitors :-( 09:09:40 zbrahead91: it's on apress.com 09:10:11 Cool, there's a japanese version of the book now 09:10:14 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:10:36 http://cognition.iig.uni-freiburg.de/teaching/veranstaltungen/ws05/lisp/Practical%20Common%20Lisp%20-%20Peter%20Seibel.pdf 09:10:37 http://www.apress.com/book/view/1590592395 <-- "Free eBook Download" 09:10:43 Google delivered. 09:11:06 zbrahead91: i think it is probably better to get it from apress. i don't know if the license allows free redistribution (maybe it does) 09:12:19 Hey! Your Xach 'That book is dead sexy' 09:12:29 :P 09:13:04 my what? 09:13:14 lol 09:13:23 (...) 09:13:28 "that book is dead sexy Xach on #lisp" 09:13:39 On Gigamonkey's PCL page :P 09:13:41 probably meant "you're" 09:13:50 Oh yeah -.- 09:13:57 s/your/you are 09:14:37 zbrahead91: it is obvious that you are very excited. please calm down! no need to flood the channel with lots of "lol"s and "oh yeah"s. not appreciated either (by me, if that matters). 09:14:43 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-090-228.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:21 I am not excited -.- 09:15:43 If anything I should be comatose. 09:15:51 *zbrahead91* went to sleep at 5 AM. 09:16:03 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:16:52 But anyway, +rep to ivanst for the google. 09:20:09 -!- kij` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:21:32 -!- xhanjian [n=Jan@218.109.76.145] has quit [Client Quit] 09:22:31 dash___ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-129-041.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:39 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:24:25 I wonder if anyone would like to comment on this blog entry stumbled on earlier: http://sean-ross.blogspot.com/2008/02/pre-arc-arc.html 09:24:37 hans_ [n=H4ns@p57A0C422.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:57 it suggests that what PG is aiming for with arc was mostly implemented in the early 90s with librep 09:25:51 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:26:12 librep sounds far too practical for the comparison 09:26:28 :) 09:26:49 I'd just started playing with it and it seems nice enough 09:26:58 I'm sorry I haven't a clue. 09:27:26 I wonder if being a lisp-1 means my code won't be so easily ported between it and common lisp 09:27:34 zbrahead91: one way to get one is to watch the normal customs of the channel, and follow them, instead of dragging over whatever behavior you use elsewhere. 09:27:58 Erm, Xach, what? 09:27:59 spacebat: portability of ideas can sometimes be more important than portability of source code. 09:28:02 *gg* 09:28:14 I said I haven't a clue in relation to the blog post. 09:28:36 zbrahead91: Then there's no need to bring it up. 200 people could say they know nothing, and it doesn't help. 09:30:00 Well, I was also going to comment ask about the MySQL bindings feature and what is the base CL library for it? 09:30:26 zbrahead91: CLSQL can connect to MySQL. I don't know if there's anything else for CL at the moment. 09:30:39 anything in a free library, that is. 09:30:45 :) 09:30:56 i think it would be interesting to implement the mysql protocol like pg and postmodern implement the postgres protocol 09:31:06 -!- H4nsX [n=H4ns@p57A0CC8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:11 clsql uses the C mysql client library 09:31:33 Implementing the raw protocols is really braindead 09:32:01 It's very error-prone and will break over time, while the mysql C-API is bound to stay as compatible as possible 09:32:07 works better for me than the FFI, actually. 09:32:16 How so?! 09:32:33 I got memory faults in foreign code. 09:32:40 How much work is it to implement and test the protocol vs. using the FFI 09:32:42 Never had a problem talking the protocol. 09:32:47 daniel: I'd guess about the same. 09:32:54 Or rather, writing the FFI. 09:33:01 Using an existing FFI is pretty easy. 09:33:10 I went to a linux meet recently where a mysql dev gave a talk - he says that the new stripped down mysql fork 'drizzle' is getting much more work done on it both at sun and elsewhere than mysql 5.x 09:33:11 (if it works for you) 09:33:29 MySQL has about 50 functions (rough estimate) of which about 10 to 20 are usually used in a project. 09:33:44 Writing FFIs for this takes how long? Two hours? 09:33:45 the aim of drizzle is to become like an apache of databases with lots of modules to build up into just what you need for a project 09:33:46 daniel: with the amount of tools that depend on the protocol, the likelihood of arbitrary rapid protocol change goes down 09:34:03 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-020-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:34:03 daniel: You just need more practice with protocol processing code :) 09:34:16 and he expects mysql to get as far as 6.x and then collapse under all the crap code 09:34:32 Xach: I think MySQL AB (or possibly Sun Microsystems these days) has a theory that implementing the protocol makes your stuff a derived work of MySQL 09:34:40 Xach: I'm not a big MySQL-guy so I don't know about tools directly talking the protocol, but this is more about the concept of re-inventing the wheel that seems rather populer with lispers. 09:34:56 I find it much more important to ease the process of using foreign libraries 09:35:15 Krystof: I've heard that theory. I don't think I'd give it much weight personally. 09:35:24 daniel: That would be nice, too. 09:35:28 I have worked out a concept to parse C and C++ header files and then automatically create the mappings for Lisp, but I don't have to time to actually code, it :( 09:35:54 My goal was to make Qt available to Lisp so we finally can create nice GUIs :) 09:36:00 daniel: It's not something I'm interested in, though, while talking protocols *does* interest me. And I think stuff like pg.lisp and clx are also interesting. 09:36:15 You want wxWidgets for a nice GUI system. 09:36:30 I'm more the practical guy and want to write software that can actually be used by end-users 09:36:36 wxWidgets is cross-platform to almost any OS. 09:36:38 zbrahead91: You want to get a clue first, maybe :) 09:37:02 daniel: I use the postgres Lisp protocol stuff for commercial projects, works pretty well. 09:37:04 wxWidgets is butt-ugly. Both to code and how it looks without tweaking 09:37:28 Xach: What kind of software is that? I guess it's not desktop-software, right? 09:37:44 daniel: i tried understanding qt's licensing and it seems to boil down to: "either make your software gpl or talk to us about pricing". did i get that right? 09:37:46 daniel: website store. 09:37:57 H4ns: Yes :-( 09:38:04 daniel: so why bother? 09:38:40 because, H4ns, the SHINY is more important than anything else 09:38:46 H4ns: Because it's *by far* the highest quality cross-platform library that's on the market today. 09:39:15 Krystof: The quality of the API is important, too. And it's great, in contrast to wx 09:39:34 daniel: ah, ok. i'd feel much better if i knew the pricing. i stopped using allegro for that very reason, and i'll not look at qt unless i get a price information in advance. but ymmv, certainly. 09:39:51 wxWidgets is basically LGPLed, making it an API of choice for commercial applications, surely? 09:39:55 H4ns: After they've been bought by Nokia they have removed the prices from the web-page 09:40:01 Xach: are you glad you woke up so early? 09:40:15 I have trouble making sense of seeing "end users" and "cross platform" in one sentence. pick something that looks reasonably native on Windows and call it a day, there are no look-and-feel-picky "end users" on linux anyway 09:40:20 H4ns: It comes down to 1.700 to 5.000 dollar per Developer (1.700 for one platform, 5.000 for all three) 09:40:21 As I know that Spore (The new game from EA) uses several LGPLed components 09:40:27 H4ns: Something in that range. 09:40:30 daniel: nokia is not a pleasant company to deal with, in general. one more reason to not want it. 09:40:33 Krystof: It's interesting. 09:40:36 -!- apple_ide [n=apple_id@124-171-21-231.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 09:40:40 -!- mythos [n=mythos@091-141-070-116.dyn.orange.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:19 i recently used gtk-server for a cross-platform GUI and it worked reasonable well although it has its share of problems and won't be a solution for everyone (but it was for me :) ) 09:41:57 also gtk-server's developer it very response 09:42:03 H4ns: Yeah. So far it only had good influence, though. Albeit the re-branding and ugly new logos and webpage :) 09:42:06 s/it/is/ 09:42:32 aerique: yeah. butt ugly, but workable and no strings attached. 09:42:44 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 09:42:45 Right, I am going to go now, au revoir. 09:42:48 -!- zbrahead91 [i=5c2b4207@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-72b8d78f327929df] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 09:42:49 *Xach* got up for the coughing baby, stayed up for the engaging conversation 09:42:53 *sniff* 09:43:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:43:42 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:43:43 Well, I'm off to continue my work 09:45:52 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:46:58 how old is the baby Xach? 09:47:23 H4ns: GTK+ doesn't look that horrible IMHO: http://ryepup.unwashedmeme.com/blog/2008/09/15/adw-charting-now-has-at-least-one-other-user/ 09:47:55 spacebat: 3 months. 09:48:20 fun times, we have one due in a week or so 09:49:04 *Xach* must shower and get the 3 year old ready for the day, adios 09:49:23 bye 09:50:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:53:33 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:03 -!- msingh0 [n=user@203.171.123.8.dynamic.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:59:34 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:01:03 -!- gzip4__ [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:01:13 -!- plage [n=user@laptop-147-210-129-92.labri.fr] has left #lisp 10:05:37 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-83.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:06:58 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17DF8B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:28 etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:14 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.62.4.250] has quit [] 10:12:57 ths [n=ths@p549AEA73.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:12 *tic* translates algol-ish code to prefix: http://rafb.net/p/0czufC38.html 10:17:09 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X6215.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:17:17 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-090-228.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:18:05 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-83.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 10:28:14 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:28:42 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:29:41 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has joined #lisp 10:30:54 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:31:04 mozzyb [n=mozzyb@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 10:33:09 kij` [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 10:34:17 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 10:34:40 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:21 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 10:35:35 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:37:28 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has joined #lisp 10:38:28 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:39:35 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:43:15 mythos [n=mythos@091-141-003-174.dyn.orange.at] has joined #lisp 10:44:36 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:44:36 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:44:42 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 10:44:46 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 10:46:45 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has joined #lisp 10:46:48 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has quit [Client Quit] 10:48:20 dang, does anyone have common-lisp.net's old ip adress by some chance? 10:49:30 -!- etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:49:31 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:50:24 Ifur_ [n=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:50:47 got it, never mind. 10:52:21 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 10:54:01 ok, common-lisp.net is back in service. please report problems to admin@common-lisp.net 10:54:25 dmiles [n=dmiles@67.168.159.175] has joined #lisp 10:54:36 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . common-lisp.net back in service, please email problems to admin@common-lisp.net 10:57:45 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:57:53 is this channel for Common Lisp, or lisp in general? 10:58:08 see the topic 10:58:22 ok, nvm 10:58:28 -!- Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:58:32 -!- Ifur_ is now known as Ifur 10:58:35 is there a channel for lisp that you know if? 10:58:44 Jarvellis: what lisp? 10:59:01 lisp is a family of programming languages i thought 10:59:37 <_8david> I suggest Usenet instead of IRC for that PoV, you'll have lots of fun discussing it over on cll. 10:59:49 Jarvellis: correct. you can use this channel to ask "general lisp" questions, but questions for, say, scheme or clojure are better suited for other channels. 11:02:12 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:21 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:02:56 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:03:35 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has joined #lisp 11:04:53 does learning one dialect help or hinder learning others? 11:05:03 *dialect of lisp 11:05:38 Jarvellis: are you asking "will i be spoiled forever if i learn the wrong lisp first"? 11:06:14 H4ns, yes, pretty much 11:06:50 i am going to learn either common lisp or scheme, if it won't hurt which then i will base my choice on the learning resources 11:06:55 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:03 Jarvellis: there is no general answer. every dialect has its own idioms, and you will usually need some time to adopt between two dialects. 11:07:35 H4ns, thanks, in retrospect it was probably a silly question 11:09:49 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:12:46 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:13:19 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:13:47 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has joined #lisp 11:14:12 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:18:43 tic: can we put parentheses in python like that? 11:18:46 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 11:19:32 matimago, I'm looking for the proper method in the 'ast' module to do so. 11:20:42 ok. In Ruby, we can surround any expression in parentheses, and since there's no statement, it really looks like MatzLisp. Only with some strange syntax rules, such as dots, one expression per line, etc. 11:20:52 cool. 11:22:08 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB999B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:22:39 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9AF8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:22:41 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 11:23:06 Jarvellis: you can easily learn both CL and Scheme core language. What's more work, is to learn libraries. You'll probably do so in only one language. I'd advise to "invest" in CL. 11:23:33 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:24:23 matimago, are there any other dialects you think it might be worth looking at? 11:24:25 matimago: idiomatic CL differs quite a bit from Scheme 11:24:50 *Jarvellis* already gets confused by the different syntax of "defun" and "define" 11:25:24 etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:30 Jarvellis, so start with CL by reading the book Practical Common Lisp 11:25:44 aiur [n=Jan@218.109.72.160] has joined #lisp 11:27:16 Jarvellis: well, there's emacs lisp that is useful. Looks like Common Lisp, but without lexical variables. 11:27:34 isn't emacs lisp mostly for emacs? 11:27:51 Jarvellis: fact is, if you start learning and using serriously one lisp, eventually you'll know both three :-) 11:27:53 Jarvellis: if you want to use java apis, clojure may also be of interest. it is kind of hard to learn, though. 11:27:57 Jarvellis: yes, for emacs. 11:28:30 matimago, i do not plan to have anything to do with emacs if i can help it, but thanks for the suggestion 11:28:39 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:31:15 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:32:02 Jarvellis: without emacs you're going to have a hard time finding a decent common lisp or clojure ide (but plt scheme's ide is pretty good (but it's emacs-like it a lot of ways)) 11:32:02 Jarvellis: elisp probably wins hands down in terms of LOC from all actively used lisp code in existence 11:32:31 segv: So commercial implementations are not decent? 11:32:44 ;-) 11:32:55 segv, with emacs i'll have trouble finding a decent text editor (sorry, just a personal hatred thing) 11:33:01 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 11:33:03 lipm! 11:33:06 Limp, even. 11:33:06 it is kind of tiring how linux and vi cripples the youth! 11:33:10 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:33:26 *drumroll* 11:34:14 i am old, and i've hated emacs on unix before i used linux 11:34:40 Jarvellis, http://cliki.net/Limp might be for you 11:34:55 *H4ns* bites his tongue 11:35:15 i do not know that i need an ide to be honest 11:35:27 Jarvellis, typing code at the REPL gets old quick. 11:35:34 Jarvellis: seriously, emacs is the best free common lisp development environment. you'll just miss a lot if you don't use it. but you can help tic to improve on limp and write some mor infrastructure. 11:36:02 Jarvellis: with lisp, you need a good interactive environment to use it effectively. it is not edit-compile-run on a by-file basis. 11:36:20 *tic* agrees fully with H4ns 11:36:35 i would consider emacs if it wouldn't take up a substantial portion of my available storage 11:36:48 sounds like a bad argument to me. :-) 11:36:51 Jarvellis: are you really on a such constrained computer? 11:36:52 and if i could be bothered to rebind all the damn keys 11:37:06 H4ns, no, i'm just inventing things :-P 11:37:06 *H4ns* used emacs since he switched from iapx286 to iapx386 11:37:07 But I find that a single features is 90% of what you need: to be able to send to the repl a sexp from the editor, and get back the result (either inserted in the same buffer, or in a separate buffer). 11:37:19 lisp-eval-last-expression is all you need ;-) 11:37:43 matimago: M-. is the other feature that you need 11:37:50 matimago: and proper automatic indenting 11:37:53 is there a small version of emacs that supports slime? 11:37:58 *H4ns* could go on 11:38:07 Jarvellis: what is that "small" thing that you are talking about? 11:38:10 without the various IRC, mail, whateverelse clients i don't need 11:38:27 Jarvellis: just don't load the stuff that you don't need. 11:38:29 small as in not ~30MB 11:38:29 Jarvellis: size is relative. Nowadays, the GNU emacs distribution is smaller than VIM, and they're much smaller than web browsers. 11:38:34 Jarvellis: ignoring stuff you don't need is easy 11:38:49 Jarvellis: you can copy just the core, 8MB, tiny. 11:38:52 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:39:21 i'm not sure i'd say tiny, but much more reasonable for a text editor 11:39:41 Jarvellis: you could install emacs and slime, use it for a while, then find all files in the emacs installation directory that have not been accessed since you installed them and remove them. 11:39:52 -!- etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 11:39:53 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 11:39:56 -!- mozzyb [n=mozzyb@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:40:03 H4ns, that sounds like a risky strategy 11:40:10 Jarvellis: come on, you said you are old 11:40:41 H4ns, i am old, it is the youths that are reckless 11:41:01 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:41:14 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 11:41:41 Jarvellis: if you are old, you should be old enough not to dismiss a good tool because it can do more things than you want it to do. 11:41:49 Or start with a basic xemacs installation and install just the packages you want. 11:42:04 rtoym: oh, there is a modular distribution? 11:42:07 Jarvellis: do you realize that a 1 TB HD costs less than 130 . 11:42:08 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:42:29 H4ns: Don't know if this is a common-lisp or slime-devel mailing list issue, but the slime-dev mailing list appears to be stuck. 11:42:36 i am not dismissing it because it can do more, i am disliking things being so big that they take up a fifth of my spare storage 11:42:49 Jarvellis: do you realize that a 1 TB HD costs less than 130  ? 11:42:56 rtoym: we've moved to the new machine today and can now slowly begin recovering. i'm working on trac right now. 11:43:20 H4ns: Kind of. There's a base install and lots of addon packages that you can install separately. The base install is probably still pretty big. 11:43:28 matimago, i do not have €130, or a ata/scsi controler, is that for a usb disk? 11:43:35 USB. 11:43:41 130  is one day work... 11:43:53 then you are better paid than i am 11:43:55 this is getting old 11:43:56 :) 11:43:56 H4ns: Cool. But the slime issue started on or around the 3rd. But I can wait. 11:44:05 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:44:07 Actually, around here, 130  is one hour plumbing work. 11:44:20 anyway nvm, i am not using emacs, so there's no need to discuss it 11:44:37 Jarvellis: ok. but don't say it's because of the size. 11:44:54 matimago, even if it is? seriously 11:44:56 rtoym: are you maintaining series these days, or is it dormant? 11:45:29 Jarvellis: yes, there's no need to disseminate wrong ideas ;-) 11:45:46 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:45:52 matimago, one of the reasons i am not using it is the size, therefore that is not a wrong idea 11:46:16 michaelw: "Maintaining" still, but mostly dormant. It does what I want, no one has reported issues. 11:46:33 rtoym: I did :) 11:46:42 You did? When? 11:46:49 rtoym: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2137670&group_id=3235&atid=103235 11:47:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:47:57 Jarvellis: actually, it would be perfectly possible to develop (in CL of course), _an_ emacs doing indentation and good integration with the underlying lisp in a few KB. 11:48:26 matimago, and that is something i was at least vaguely considering 11:48:35 And even completion and reference searching (using the underlying lisp documentation, apropos and describe. 11:48:38 who needs undo anyway? 11:48:52 matimago, although it would probably not use a very emacsy interface 11:49:03 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 11:49:16 michaelw: Now why didn't I see the email message? Sorry about that. I'll look into it soon. 11:49:21 In the scheme world, there's such an editor implemented in scheme. 11:49:29 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 11:49:34 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:49:58 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:50:05 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:50:44 Jarvellis: You're running linux? With a GUI like GNOME or KDE? 11:50:46 rtoym: cool. I started to poke around a bit, but understanding the series code requires more time than I could invest then 11:50:58 rtoym, yes 11:51:13 michaelw: Heh. I don't really understand the series code very well either. 11:51:26 -!- user__ [n=user@p54923ABC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:51:31 Jarvellis: I think GNOME is way bigger than emacs. :-) 11:51:35 rtoym: phew, I am somewhat relieved :) 11:51:56 rtoym, well, actually i am using stumpwm 11:52:20 rtoym, although that is also rather large 11:53:19 Anyway, experienced people have suggested using emacs, but it's your choice. 11:55:07 This reminds me of a recent work experience. One guy was working on making our code work on a new FPGA. It didn't. Two experienced guys said it could be a timing issue so go add a bunch of nops to each write to the FPGA registers. He didn't listen, got sidetracked on other issues. After a month with no resolution, he added nops. Voila! It worked. 11:55:27 :-) 11:57:14 stassats [n=stassats@ppp91-122-106-16.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 11:57:59 Oops. Gotta go..... 11:58:12 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092414]"] 12:00:15 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has quit ["leaving"] 12:01:42 -!- [eDu] [n=edu@193.153.239.204] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:02:14 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:04:39 [eDu] [n=edu@229.Red-79-144-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:11 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:07:30 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:09:51 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 12:10:05 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has joined #lisp 12:12:10 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 12:14:43 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:34 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:17:47 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 12:20:10 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-83.kosnet.ru] has quit ["."] 12:21:16 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:24:18 any decent CL tutorials that don't assume slime? 12:24:39 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 12:24:57 PCL? 12:25:00 slime doesn't affect language itself 12:25:23 PCL seems to spend a lot of time telling me which keys to use for slime features 12:25:31 skip it 12:25:45 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:03 Jarvellis: i hadn't noticed it all that much, but there's a lot of useful stuff in PCL that doesn't intermingle any slime stuff at all. 12:31:43 Jarvellis, I've been using PCL and haven't been bothered by any Slimyness even though I use Vim+Limp 12:33:14 ok, i'll keep going and see if it dies down, thanks 12:36:35 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:37:04 mozzyb [n=mozzyb@135.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:46 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.218.197] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:43:28 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:49:04 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 12:56:06 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:58:04 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@122.167.82.171] has joined #lisp 12:58:40 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@122.167.82.171] has left #lisp 12:59:06 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@122.167.82.171] has joined #lisp 13:01:57 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has quit ["leaving"] 13:02:23 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@122.167.82.171] has left #lisp 13:02:40 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.139.114] has joined #lisp 13:02:41 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:02:59 minion: tell Jarvellis about gentle 13:02:59 Jarvellis: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 13:04:12 matimago, thanks, but i quite like PCL as long as not using slime will not be a problem 13:04:15 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:04:21 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:09:45 Jarvellis: did you consider installing xemacs? from what I've seen, xemacs includes less in the default distribution than GNU emacs does, and thus probably takes up less disk space. 13:10:27 chandler, i am considering it, pacman says half the space for xemacs 13:10:42 then there's hemlock 13:10:54 climacs! 13:11:02 hemlock? i'm not that depressed yet 13:11:47 Jarvellis: forgive me for being ignorant in the ways of the many Linux distributions, but isn't pacman a tool that compiles packages from source? 13:13:04 chandler, no, it also does normal package management stuff 13:13:31 also, nothing to forgive 13:13:49 Ah, OK. It was a vague recollection and didn't seem to go together with "limited disk space configuration". 13:14:03 Is this a netbook (eee, aspire one, etc) you're setting up? Or just an older computer? 13:14:55 eee 13:15:08 and i cannot afford my TB HDD yet 13:15:53 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 13:16:13 there is also some new editor on ltk --- http://phil.nullable.eu/ 13:16:22 haven't tried it 13:17:26 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:17:59 Interesting. I haven't seen that yet. 13:19:02 So, how about that CCL for Windows? 13:19:52 chandler, do you use xemacs? 13:20:48 No, I don't. I'd use it over vim for editing Lisp, though :-) 13:21:23 anyone here uses xemacs? 13:21:36 I used to use xemacs for years, but switched 13:21:50 I seem to remember rtoym being an xemacs user, but he's not here at the moment. 13:22:03 if space wasn an issue for me, I'd rather remove unneeded stuff from Emacs than use XEmacs, but ymmv 13:22:04 do you know how to make it load in text mode?(if that makes sense) 13:22:07 There is an #xemacs channel, though. 13:22:11 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:22:19 I was using xemacs until I found slime didn't like it as much 13:22:29 maybe I just didn't know how to make slime like it 13:22:30 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 13:22:37 anyways, bedtime 13:22:43 spacebat, thanks, that answers the question 'night 13:23:00 Hm. That's a shame. 13:23:17 There's also another fork I've seen named sxemacs. 13:25:15 i'll see what i can delete to make space for emacs i think 13:25:44 and then see if i can change the keybindings enough to not need super-bendy-fingers :-P 13:26:22 zbrahead91 [i=5c2b420b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-80fb65e51941c298] has joined #lisp 13:26:35 My recommendation for that is to find out how to change the caps lock key to act as a control key. 13:26:51 eeepc has very tiny keyboard 13:26:54 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:26:56 i quite like having a capslock key 13:27:09 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 13:27:09 You're the first person I've heard say that, actually :-) 13:27:11 for my fingers 13:27:34 i'm not sure that changing the keymap for a single app says good things about that app's interface anyway 13:28:11 having a control (or few) at a nice place is good for many apps 13:28:12 -!- zbrahead91 [i=5c2b420b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-80fb65e51941c298] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:28:12 I don't just change it for Emacs. I'm used to having the control key next to "A" from years of using Sun keyboards. 13:28:18 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:28:21 zbrahead91 [i=5c2b420b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-93dc21e3c45fbac5] has joined #lisp 13:28:58 I wonder what the caps lock is good for. 13:29:26 i used it for changing keymaps before 13:29:35 Would be that. 13:29:59 Well it's not good for shouting as holding shift and typing is so much more satisfying. @stassats That's a good idea. :) 13:30:37 tic: http://www.thecapslock.info/ 13:30:39 haiwei [n=haiwei@221.216.67.56] has joined #lisp 13:30:42 minion: chant! 13:30:42 MORE SHOUTING 13:30:55 dlowe, :D 13:31:29 Agreed with tic dlowe :3 13:31:45 alright, more work. 13:31:50 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 13:35:33 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:35:53 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 13:37:46 *Xach* hopes for some feedback on his networking try 13:39:42 *zbrahead91* wonders what networking try Xach is talking about 13:40:03 zbrahead91: http://planet.lisp.org/ has the scoop 13:40:43 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 13:42:08 ChibaPet [n=ChibaPet@c-76-127-213-207.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:42 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 13:43:22 So, today's question... Is there any Lisp/Scheme/Lisplike system out there that implements both Erlang-style lightweight threads and OS threads together, thus getting the best of both worlds and making full use of SMP systems "for free"? 13:44:20 The Gambit-C docs state that it does everything in a single OS thread, so that isn't it. Haskell and Erlang both seem to have implementations that do it, but I don't want Haskell or Erlang here. :P 13:44:31 termite? don't really know whether it fits those criteria 13:44:47 ChibaPet: termite & multiple processes. 13:44:47 stassats: No, it's single-threaded. 13:44:54 You need to run one process per CPU. 13:44:55 Termite runs on Gambit, and is thus limited to Gambit's single-threadedness, unless that's changed since the docs I read were written. 13:45:09 ChibaPet: the very point of termite is inter-process communications. 13:45:17 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-126-1.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:20 Hm. 13:45:21 ChibaPet: So, you don't want programmer access to OS threads, but you want the implementation to scale to multiple cores, right? 13:45:28 Right. 13:45:59 Is there any reliable way to try to get multiple processes to divide up evenly between available CPUs? 13:46:07 Multiple running Gambits wouldn't bother me 13:46:08 . 13:46:41 May I ask why you need to divide them up equally? 13:46:45 If it's for IO, your favourite green thread system might already be doing that. For computations, it might be simpler to find a multithreaded library. 13:47:43 I don't have a favourite green thread system. :) I want to just smoothly scale up to using each available core, as needed. 13:47:45 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:02 ChibaPet: if you use multiple threads/processes, that's kind of the OS's job 13:48:43 Right. But how's the OS to know that it ought not to run two Gambit processes on one core? Does modern Linux or MacOS migrate processes? 13:48:54 ...if the load becomes such that it would be a win? 13:49:07 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has joined #lisp 13:49:13 I'm just at the very beginnings of sketching out a MMORPG server, hence my interest. 13:49:28 ChibaPet: Processes can be migrated at any time without warning 13:49:49 I'm reading recently about folks switching from Lisp back-end to Erlang back-end for this kind of thing, for this kind of reason, and I'd like to find a way to do what I want and stick with Lisp. 13:50:14 An MMORPG server? Is it for any MMORPG we are likely to know or is it your MMORPG? 13:50:27 My own. Been percolating for years. 13:50:40 On top of that, I wonder if OpenMP is ported for Lisp? 13:50:49 I will look for you. 13:50:59 My only thought about multiple processes is that then I have to start doing more accounting myself to balance load across the processes. 13:51:49 *Xach* thinks of Joel Reymont 13:52:14 Also, FWIW, I'm thinking the load will largely be compute, as my current thought involves a single thread doing lots and lots of asynchronous I/O. 13:52:34 I haven't banged out ANY of the details at the bottom yet. 13:52:50 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 13:53:27 Xach: Joel Reymont has acquired more itadollars than I have. His approach can't be all wrong :-) 13:54:05 How is he scaling OpenPoker? 13:54:11 *Xach* watches all the hits to his OpenPoker page as people google Joel's name 13:54:24 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@abdallo.cs.unibo.it] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:54:24 heh, yes 13:54:30 ChibaPet: i don't know if he's still working on it. 13:54:40 How *was* he scaling it? :P 13:54:51 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:55:08 ChibaPet: his pattern of behavior is: 1. pick a platform 2. enthuse about how awesome it is, commit heavily to it with hardware and learning 3. find awful, fatal flaws 4. goto 1 13:55:14 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:17 hah 13:55:29 ChibaPet: i think he's working on a trading application of some kind. you can see in his twitter and i think his blog too. 13:55:44 look at the GPLed code of his that Xach has so nicely packaged and have a neb. 13:55:57 http://www.xach.com/misc/openpoker/ 13:56:24 Ah, very nice. 13:56:51 ChibaPet: anyway, the last thing i saw from joel was him complaining about how erlang doesn't scale like he thinks it should on his chosen hardware. then a bunch of erlang people talked to him about his expectations. i think it was on reddit a week or two ago. 13:57:14 Hm. 13:57:20 I haven't looked at them seeing as I do not immediately possess the ability to crack tarballs, so I really do not know if that is what you want, ChibaPet 13:57:28 ChibaPet: sorry, i don't have any actual useful answers, but that's the joel context. my impression is that it's a hard problem that requires a choice of platform and a willingness to work with it, compromise, etc. 13:57:34 I was just reading about how Erlang now scales its lightweight threads smoothly across SMP systems. Hm. 13:58:00 ChibaPet: That's been the case for a few years now. 13:58:32 Anyway, a possibility is maybe using CL-MUPROC and synchronizing multiple processes... Don't know. It's a really interesting bit of research so far. 13:58:37 In C++ I probably would have employed OpenMP. But I am as green as they come to lisp so I can only help thanks to the mighty power of google, ChibaPet :P 13:59:16 Same here, zbrahead91 - I've been a wannabe Lisp wanker for years. :) 13:59:23 user__ [n=user@p5492673B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:24 `O_O 13:59:29 envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:59:34 One is still at school, ChibaPet :P 14:00:01 Logged on in his school library, no less. (Yay for mibbit.com) 14:00:07 heh 14:00:07 -!- envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Client Quit] 14:00:55 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has quit ["leaving"] 14:01:02 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-243-136.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:01:07 btbngr [n=btbngr@5ad9f271.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:28 mib_0k93xp [i=c158580a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9bd759042a6791b1] has joined #lisp 14:03:17 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 14:03:19 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-8-113.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:03:21 -!- mib_0k93xp [i=c158580a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9bd759042a6791b1] has quit [Client Quit] 14:08:25 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:08:31 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 14:08:40 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 14:09:04 Xach: how does qn differ from usocket? apart from being yet more incomplete? 14:09:22 H4ns: it does less, it is smaller, and it lives in one file. 14:09:56 Xach: my concern is that it will eventually grow into multiple files, and there really is no way to prevent that from happening. 14:10:24 I can't prevent someone else from doing it, but I don't intend for this to be a general library, but a part of a deliberately small program I am working on. 14:11:16 Xach: if it fills your need, then more power to you. i'm already seeing it being bastardized just because it was you who wrote it, ending up in usocket with a different api 14:11:35 <_8david> the "synthetic package" trick, which I understand your technique to be about, is definitely interesting 14:11:49 Xach: you could maybe make the api usocket compatible (or iolib compatible) so that whoever starts with it can switch to something real easily 14:12:26 _8david: i couldn't figure out a nice way to mix that technique and also exploit the interface similarity ecl shares with sbcl 14:12:26 <_8david> (I don't see myself using it, but I agree that it's quite a novel approach, so it wins beauty points for that.) 14:13:14 what's a synthetic package? 14:13:41 kreuter: for my file, i made packages for lisps that i don't support, and conditionally import from their system packages, and unconditionally export from them. 14:13:59 -!- zbrahead91 [i=5c2b420b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-93dc21e3c45fbac5] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 14:14:09 nifty 14:14:25 *kreuter* respects a clever package system hack. 14:14:38 i also attach a fbinding (for an error-calling function) so compilation doesn't complain about unknown functions 14:14:51 it was mostly to avoid the hairy nest of #+ and #- 14:15:09 creddy_ [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-27-65.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:15:23 kreuter: i posted about it to planet lisp, that has some more context 14:15:33 oh, so you did. 14:16:04 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:16:10 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:18:21 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 14:19:22 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 14:22:39 bbl 14:22:41 -!- ChibaPet [n=ChibaPet@c-76-127-213-207.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:27:04 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:17 c-l.net cvs is back in operation, if anyone had problems with that. 14:29:02 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:29:11 -!- creddy_ is now known as creddy 14:31:48 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 14:32:12 Ifur_ [n=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 14:32:34 -!- Ifur [n=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:32:38 -!- Ifur_ is now known as Ifur 14:33:58 H4ns: Mailing-lists seem to be down for a couple of days. 14:34:24 vy: they should be back up now. please try and let me know if they still don't work. 14:36:32 H4ns: Connection is refused for http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/rucksack-devel 14:37:04 Same for http://common-lisp.net/project/rucksack/. Is it just me? 14:37:14 vy: you got a stale dns entry - maybe use new.common-lisp.net today 14:38:02 H4ns: You're right. Now it works, and my post appears in the archives -- ml is working again. Thanks. 14:38:10 vy: yw 14:38:17 -!- kij` [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:38:17 vy: thanks for testing 14:39:42 yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:41:06 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:42:33 salex: your post got some valuable feedback on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/75o9y/ 14:44:16 heh. I've been considering a followup, noting that one thing it's missing as is in barre chord notation 14:44:52 but a) no time and b) i noticed that cl-pdf is generating pdfs my mac reads fine, but acroread chokes on 14:45:09 ah 14:45:43 *Xach* has an idea about an online chord chart maker that has spiffy animations when you switch chords 14:46:15 yeah, there are a number of things that could be done 14:46:21 i actually have a nicer version now 14:46:29 still just a 50 line hack 14:47:07 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:47:48 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit ["Untill I come back."] 14:50:18 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:50:43 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:51:00 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:02 Xach: I might make it into something more useful. Might be handy to have a web front end if I do. 14:51:11 need a few free cycles though 14:51:35 hello lispers 14:52:28 the acroread troubles are weird though, I should probably take that up on a mailing list 14:52:51 salex: i've had problems with that with a malformed document. some viewers are more forgiving. 14:52:54 can I have accessors with the same name defined for slots in different classes? 14:53:14 mcxx: sure. 14:53:25 Xach: yes. It has a problem with the text elements. 14:53:31 mcxx: the accessor is a method for a generic function. 14:54:40 fine, I thought so 14:55:07 i didn't know reddit was following lisp stuff 14:56:09 *tic* looked through multimethods for python. not a pretty sight 14:56:12 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:56:24 salex, lisp.reddit.com if not on the regular Proggit. 14:56:55 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:57:02 tic: gotcha. I never keep track of this stuff :) 14:57:19 salex, trust me, you're better off without. 14:57:33 *tic* don't want to think about how much time is spent reading instead of doing. 14:57:37 heh 14:58:00 i'm amazed at how many comments (locally) that little hack-and-post got, actually 14:58:36 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:44 dunno if that's things like reddit, or just planet lisp 14:59:54 salex: the quality of reddit lisp discussion has declined a lot lately, imho. 15:00:00 shame 15:00:16 means more newbies! 15:00:31 endless september 15:00:33 (and/or trolls) 15:00:43 I meant in a positive way. 15:00:54 after all, they did find their way to Lisp, right? 15:01:18 probably because of the smell 15:01:28 at least it's not dead. 15:01:41 -!- user__ [n=user@p5492673B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:02:09 heh 15:02:11 no deader than usual 15:03:26 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:03:35 Lisp, Amiga, BeOS. Dead Poets Society. 15:03:52 hi salex. I don't know if you've read my mail of yesterday yet 15:04:11 in case you haven't, I have written it out and dug up some references 15:04:22 hi Krystof. yes, but only quickly. hope to have a chance to look properly later 15:04:25 oh, nice! 15:05:09 http://doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/sample-notes.pdf 15:05:21 there are one or two people who have had this thought before, but only one or two 15:07:46 ah, you found the Cawley Pachter reference. I dug that up yesterday due to a vague memory of a related colloquim talk. Haven't read yet -- useful? 15:08:21 it seems to me the gene splicing folk are doing something sort-of similar, in flavour anyway 15:09:06 thanks, I'll read this after lunch and see what I can come up with. 15:10:09 Cawley and Pachter basically agree with my e-mail to you :-) 15:11:09 they do it more stylishly, of course: they use the backward variable so that you can go forwards in time (but works out the same in the end). Also, they talk about smaller-space slightly-longer-running-time O(TlogT) variants 15:11:38 ah. makes sense with a big space 15:13:13 so, anyway, now I'm back at the point where I should write code 15:13:23 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 15:13:23 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has quit ["Look ma, no script!"] 15:13:24 except that now I have to prepare next week's lecture 15:13:39 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.244.243] has joined #lisp 15:14:50 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:14:58 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has joined #lisp 15:16:06 isn't it always the way? I'm scrambling for a meeting/demo tomorrow, myself 15:16:33 andrewks [n=aks@ottawa-hs-64-26-167-234.d-ip.magma.ca] has joined #lisp 15:16:37 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:17:25 bhyde_ [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:47 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 15:20:08 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb8e72.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:21:10 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@122.167.79.134] has joined #lisp 15:23:03 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@253.pool85-54-99.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 15:23:21 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-126.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:23 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-60.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:02 drewc: what's going on with clnet? 15:29:19 the lisppaste bots are here, but they're not running on clnet? 15:29:34 chandler: they are on the old machine. can you move them? 15:29:54 I would like to. (I'd also like to have been told before it was broken, but that's water under the bridge now.) 15:30:00 How do I get on to the old machine? 15:30:08 chandler: 80.68.86.115 15:30:34 chandler: sorry for the mishap. this should all be more enterprisey :) 15:30:36 I can't seem to log in as lisppaste. 15:30:51 chandler: oh, hold on 15:31:06 If you could simply kill it off, that'd be enough. 15:31:19 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:19 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:19 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:32 Thanks. 15:31:55 do you want the files rsynced again? 15:32:11 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:18 db48x [n=db48x@cl-12.dal-01.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:31 H4ns: That'd be good, I think. 15:32:38 chandler: give me a moment 15:32:46 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:32:50 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 15:32:50 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:56 I need a function that converts a utf8 string into a string that uses a minimal set of characters 15:33:13 What do you mean by "utf8 string"? 15:33:44 db48x: there's no such thing as utf-8 strings. Try utf-8 encoded octet (or byte) vectors. 15:34:06 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1ECD3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:06 I mean exactly that 15:34:20 db48x: try: (apropos "CONVERT") 15:34:27 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:28 so for example, "Xóõ" would become "Xoo" (yes, I know that loses a lot of data) 15:34:42 segv [n=mb@p4FC1C94F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:48 If you have that first string, you did something wrong. 15:34:58 In Common Lisp, "Xóõ" is not a UTF-8 string. 15:35:02 Like reading a character stream instead of a (unsigned-byte 8) stream. 15:35:10 Strings are specified without reference to encoding. 15:35:41 db48x: when i did something like that, i made a table that mapped accented characters to similar characters without accents. I don't know if there's an existing table you could re-use; I didn't map a whole lot. 15:36:01 Xach: yea, I'm just looking to avoid making that kind of table 15:36:15 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@122.167.79.134] has left #lisp 15:36:15 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:36:41 chandler: what is it then? 15:37:08 db48x: good luck with it, i don't know if there's anything already available (i would check google, i think) 15:37:08 chandler: you should be all set now 15:37:18 db48x: That requires some serious unicode knowledge. 15:37:20 db48x: It is a vector of characters. 15:37:20 it's a string, and it happens to contain those bytes that when properly interpreted according to the utf8 specification indicate a sequence of unicode code points 15:37:32 db48x: The distinction between non-accented and accented characters is not simple. 15:37:35 Common Lisp strings are not vectors of bytes. 15:37:42 As far as I can imagine. 15:37:51 In any event, you may be able to do what you want by converting the string to Normalization Form D and then stripping out all combining characters. 15:38:06 H4ns: is c-l.net supposed to operate fully again? 15:38:08 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has joined #lisp 15:38:11 a vector of characters is even better, since enumerating them results in divisions along character boundaries, instead of bytes 15:38:21 tcr: yes. any problems we'll fix when they're reported. 15:38:27 If you want to remove accents, then you can build an map of accented characters to unaccented. (defparameter *accent-map* (("a" . "áàâ") ...)) (with-output-to-string (unaccented) (loop for ch on accented-string for asso = (find-if (lambda (asso) (find ch (cdr asso))) *accent-map* ) do (write (if asso (car asso) ch) unaccented))) 15:38:35 This will turn the compatibility code points for characters like é into a sequence of two code points (latin small letter e followed by combining character grave, or whatever it's called) 15:38:55 matimago: That seems like the wrong strategy. It would be better to decompose the legacy code points and then remove the combining accents. 15:39:00 *Xach* likes that idea 15:39:09 I don't even assume unicode. 15:39:10 chandler: yes, using the normalization forms seems like a good idea 15:39:20 are there any library functions for that? 15:39:34 H4ns: c-l.net/pipermail/foo doesn't seem to exist anymore? 15:39:45 if there were, they probably include tables you could use for the table strategy :) 15:39:49 tcr: it should. investigating. 15:39:50 hmm. hyperspec only lists functions for float under 'normalize' 15:40:03 db48x: common lisp doesn't have anything about unicode. 15:40:04 The HyperSpec won't make any reference to Unicode. 15:40:08 ah 15:40:45 perhaps there's a package around 15:40:55 I think CL-UNICODE may have access to the information that's needed to do this. 15:41:44 It looks like there's a table file available from unicode.org. 15:42:58 CL-UNICODE is very low level 15:43:09 Xach: yea, I know where to get the table 15:43:09 Krystof: still here? 15:43:18 yes 15:43:26 db48x: now you have all the pieces for great success 15:44:00 you might be interested in cedilla 15:44:33 Xach: indeed 15:44:35 (not directly applicable, but it probably has some interesting logic for you to steal) 15:44:37 the constants a_n,m where n,m are in 1..T in your (12) are exactly which? 15:45:01 lisppaste [n=lisppast@208.72.159.207] has joined #lisp 15:45:23 Xach: it just requires me to write exactly the code I didn't want to write 15:45:24 the transition probabilities of the hmm, from state n to state m 15:45:38 H4ns: Thanks! It doesn't look like the new clnet has rdns right now. Is drewc aware of that? 15:45:42 n,m aren't 1..T, they're s_T (the state at time T) and s_{T-1} (the state at time T-1 15:45:50 db48x: fortunately, everyone with the same problem in the future will benefit from what you do today 15:45:59 chandler: yes, i told him earlier, hope he fixes that soon to appease critical mailers 15:46:00 ah way, misread that somehow when I scribbled it down 15:46:00 the notation started to suck more somewhere around there 15:46:00 right 15:46:03 makes sense 15:46:04 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 15:46:05 Not that it bothers me, but it will probably bother people who don't get list mails because their MTA doesn't... ah :-) 15:46:10 I was hoping to benefit from what someone did in the past 15:46:18 minion [n=minion@208.72.159.207] has joined #lisp 15:46:21 there are fewer people in lisp's past than in many other pasts 15:46:23 specbot [n=specbot@208.72.159.207] has joined #lisp 15:46:27 heh 15:46:30 this is true 15:46:42 so the alphas are the forward prob, and you end up weightin by transition probs in the hmm 15:46:46 yes 15:46:49 smells about right 15:46:51 It looks like the CL-ICU binding is unmaintained, but if you can make it work it'd do the trick. 15:47:09 cedilla? 15:47:16 I guess I have to reread the algorithms for calculating the normalized forms of a string again 15:47:21 a unicode text renderer, written in lisp 15:47:25 -!- yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:47:36 oh, nice name! 15:47:54 gah. 15:48:02 chandler, H4ns: I don't know if it's related to the RDNS issue, but the next think I wanted to report is that the cdr-discuss mailing list doesn't seem to work anymore (but for the past few days already) 15:48:17 tcr: the archives will eventually be back, but it will take a little while (tonight) 15:48:23 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:48:28 tcr: it should be back to okay now. 15:48:57 so, back to the string issue 15:49:01 xristos [n=xristos@93-97-209-126.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:49:04 H4ns: Will emails that have been sent meanwhile, be delivered, or are they lost? 15:49:35 tcr: they should be delivered - i saw a few messages to cdr-discuss in the mailer log earlier, so i assume that some of it already works. 15:49:42 I appear to have been lucky, in that cl-sql is doing the right thing by reading the utf8 data in my database correctly 15:50:08 db48x: You probably don't need to normalize the string per se, but just decompose the characters and put the non-combining character in the resulting string. 15:50:10 there's little opportunity for it to go wrong later, and when I print the data out to the console (which is all this script really does) it also comes out utf8 15:50:16 Krystof: ok, I'll think abou this and try and get back to you this evening 15:50:17 H4ns: Ok, I tried to check, but the archives doesn't work as said above; the gmane gateway will hopefully take them up later. 15:50:28 chandler: that's exactly the same amount of work, unfortunately 15:50:37 db48x: I don't think it's luck. I'd consider it a bug if it weren't reading the UTF-8 correctly. 15:51:20 rickardg` [n=user@egaws2273.stu.lu.se] has joined #lisp 15:51:35 tcr: root@cl-net 4_# grep -c '=> cdr-discuss' /var/log/exim4/mainlog 15:51:35 6 15:52:19 so, does anyone know what this actually results in? 15:52:34 H4ns: Yay, thanks! 15:52:39 db48x: "this"? 15:52:48 -!- rickardg` [n=user@egaws2273.stu.lu.se] has quit [Client Quit] 15:53:28 rickardg` [n=user@egaws2273.stu.lu.se] has joined #lisp 15:53:30 tcr: cdr-discuss is not archived on c-l.net anyway 15:53:55 -!- rickardg` [n=user@egaws2273.stu.lu.se] has quit [Client Quit] 15:54:28 chandler: I don't know what my strings actually contain 15:54:36 chandler: are they vectors of unicode code points? 15:54:52 db48x: they are vectors of characters. char-code will often return the unicode code point of a character. 15:54:54 They are vectors of characters. 15:54:58 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:04 db48x: it does that on every unicode-aware lisp that i know of, anyway. 15:55:24 ok, so it's technically implementation specific, but everyone that you know of does it the same way? 15:55:30 i vaguely remember MCL or OpenMCL using MacRoman for something, but i'd have to research it. 15:55:42 db48x: that's my understanding wrt char-code 15:56:15 ok 15:56:27 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:07 db48x: most unicode-aware lisps also have a way to convert a string to a vector of octets in a given encoding, though how well that's supported and what it looks like varies. 15:57:24 and there's stuff like flexi-streams and babel to do it too 15:57:30 (and more) 15:57:38 hmm 15:57:45 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:56 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has joined #lisp 15:58:18 i used flexi-streams to deal with creating and processing valid utf-8 data in zs3 15:58:37 it doesn't support a lot of encodings, but i mostly cared about utf-8 15:58:38 <_8david> just curious, but what's your reason for supporting all of unicode, but stripping all combining characters? 15:59:18 <_8david> Is it just a general dislike of accents? 15:59:56 heavens no 16:00:06 I'm limited by another system 16:00:08 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@221.216.67.56] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:00:09 _8david: I assumed he wanted to get back to bare ASCII by replacing non-ASCII characters with something like ?, but to do something slightly more information-preserving with accented characters. 16:00:30 certain identifiers can only contain a-zA-z0-9 and hypens 16:00:34 -!- staffordrootbeer [n=chatzill@74.220.198.237] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:58 <_8david> You might as well drop all non ASCII-characters. 16:01:04 w 16:01:04 hyphens 16:01:04 Why not use the encoding that DNS uses for unicode domain names? 16:01:12 <_8david> E.g., if H4ns doesn't mind being used as an example, Hubner is just as wrong as HXbner. 16:01:16 they also need to stay somewhat human readable 16:02:19 staffordrootbeer [n=chatzill@nat/yahoo/x-edf3f295fae30e90] has joined #lisp 16:02:34 there are international standards for transliteration from non-ascii to ascii characters. they are used e.g. for passports (machine readable zone is ascii only) 16:02:48 -!- staffordrootbeer [n=chatzill@nat/yahoo/x-edf3f295fae30e90] has quit [Client Quit] 16:02:53 chandler: but that's actually an appealing idea 16:03:01 staffordrootbeer [n=chatzill@nat/yahoo/x-c35d3e68b064464b] has joined #lisp 16:03:27 the odd thing is that this really doesn't cause data loss, just confusion 16:03:29 H4ns: would it convert your last name to "Huebner"? 16:03:37 chandler: yes, certainly 16:03:53 Well, that's more sensible than I expected for something labeled an "international standard" :-) 16:04:00 heh 16:04:17 H4ns: what is your last name (I can handle utf8, the irc protocol itself won't care) 16:04:28 db48x: hübner 16:04:35 very mëtäl 16:04:58 *H4ns* tries to find the icao reference 16:05:37 any relation to helmuth hubner? 16:05:46 ok, so anyone interested in a somewhat official table to transliterate non-ascii to ascii should look at ICAO 9303 16:06:04 staffordrootbeer: the "any" in your question makes me say "yes" 16:06:06 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 16:06:14 hahah good call 16:06:17 stu8888 [n=soverton@75.145.221.229] has joined #lisp 16:06:35 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:07:00 Can someone please help me with a clim/mcclim question? Pretty please? 16:07:27 stu8888: just ask away; if someone can help, they'll answer. 16:07:30 you know what would be nice to have? Ruby has this cute little 'learn Ruby in 20 minutes' thing which introduces people to the general idea of the language, and how to do pretty basic things, and sort of advertises for it. 16:07:44 sykopomp: there is more than one of those for common lisp 16:07:52 Xach: do you have some links? I could use some. 16:08:03 http://homepage.mac.com/svc/CommonLispFirstContact/index.html is one 16:08:10 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB999B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:08:16 http://p-cos.net/lisp/guide.html is another 16:08:21 Xach: I'm thinking of setting up a little intro-to-lisp area for potential users :) 16:08:31 I'm teaching myself McCLIM, and just need to know how to give keyboard focus to a gadget without clicking on it. 16:08:31 there was yet another recent one that was interesting that i can't remember any details on 16:08:56 thank you :D 16:09:17 ah yes, http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 16:09:31 and that also links to some of beach's material 16:10:10 stu8888: (stream-set-input-focus gadget), I think 16:10:29 sykopomp: area where? 16:11:10 Xach: on my site, eventually. 16:11:30 hmm 16:12:42 <_8david> Krystof: and (setf port-keyboard-input-focus) for ordinary gadgets? 16:12:43 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-60.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:43 sykopomp: i'm going to steal that idea a little bit 16:12:53 <_8david> or is the STREAM- just a red herring? 16:12:57 Xach: :) 16:13:12 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:13:35 Xach: I'm hoping that a pretty high-level app would be a nice entrypoint for capturing someone's interest, so gently introducing people to lisp, and explaining why I used it might serve as a nice little plug... 16:14:26 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #lisp 16:14:43 not to mention, probably prevent them from running away scared the moment they look at the sauce. 16:14:50 _8david: I honestly don't know 16:15:59 Krystof: thanks. I'll try it. I'm trying to put focus into a text-field-pane 16:16:23 try _8david's suggestion too 16:16:28 *Xach* creates http://l1sp.org/lisp/intro 16:16:40 awesome! 16:17:03 you can have pipes in domain names? what has the world come to 16:17:37 never mind. stupid font. 16:17:47 dlowe: hey. It's almost done. It runs, and I'm finishing up the binder/compiler so I can slap that in instead of just echoing back an emote :) 16:18:00 sykopomp: I look forward to connecting to it 16:18:07 ^_^ 16:18:28 *dlowe* has a huge amount done on his, but one of the missing parts is account creation :p 16:18:48 >_> 16:19:55 sykopomp: If you collect more links, I'll link to it. I mostly wanted a short, memorable url to collect them too. 16:20:05 will do! 16:20:38 and i wanted to abuse my l1sp.org "link type" field by putting link names in there 16:20:49 worked ok! 16:21:14 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2F4ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:27 sykopomp: I'll show it to you next week if Dell actually sends my replacement laptop like they promised. 16:23:59 -!- housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has left #lisp 16:24:38 housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 16:25:04 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:24 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C0EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:45 dlowe: heh, okay :P 16:26:52 so much for beating you to release D: 16:27:03 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:27:52 vasa [n=vasa@mm-126-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 16:28:23 I've had a working mud years before you started :p 16:28:55 you may yet beat me to release, though 16:29:07 Buganini [n=buganini@nthusa.club.nthu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 16:29:17 dkcl [n=dkcl@110.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:29:43 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-179-47-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:45 if only because I insist on releasing early, releasing often 16:30:16 it's basically gonna be a chatroom when it's first released, but I think it might actually be ready by the end of the week(end) 16:30:24 Indeed. My mandate is different. 16:30:49 dlowe: any chance I could look at how you implemented stuff like telnet codes and such? 16:31:14 I filter them out entirely. :D 16:31:19 ah 16:31:22 that's what I do :< 16:31:31 it's good enough. The telnet client doesn't care. 16:31:49 I think I'm just not gonna have telnet support beyond basic vanilla telnet 16:32:06 I want to have the main interface be a GUI web client 16:32:07 s/beyond basic vanilla telnet/ 16:32:25 if you don't handle telnet codes, you don't have telnet support. 16:32:32 I want to do things like graphical drag and drop item management and the like 16:32:55 consider that in doing so, you are discarding the thing that makes muds attractive 16:33:00 that's true, but you could say you 'support' telnet if your server doesn't choke on itself when you get sent some code up the stream. 16:33:02 which is the ease of building 16:33:37 dlowe: building as in for builders (rooms, etc), or in coding? 16:33:48 sykopomp: you'll find that the two are closely intertwined 16:33:52 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44969.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:19 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:34:30 sykopomp: but if you add graphics, suddenly you need art. Lots and lots and lots of art. 16:34:38 and I don't think that's 'the' thing that makes muds attractive. I think there's a lot of potential in using text as the main medium for a game. That's what I'm trying to exploit. 16:35:00 dlowe: the only graphics I'll need is basic GUI art, and maybe a few icons to generally represent stuff. 16:35:52 just stick with ASCII art :P 16:36:16 that would be sticking to the classic mud model, which I'm trying to shy away from as much as possible :P 16:36:29 (I don't even call my engine a mud engine, usually) 16:36:30 generally == butt ugly == fail for kool kids 16:36:38 *dlowe* is very supportive of your total insanity. 16:36:52 heh 16:37:24 I just think text-based games could use a bit of a facelift. They could definitely attract a new crowd if they stopped being these kind of hard-to-use telnet-bound hackjobs :| 16:38:03 bring in the WoW kids, I say. No Shame! 16:38:30 it's all in the client not the protocol /methinks. 16:38:46 *felideon* wonders if he'll ever finish reading Gentle Intro and PCL. 16:39:03 felideon: keep reading. When you don't have any more pages to read, you'll be done. 16:39:04 never heard of that one. 16:39:13 hehe 16:39:22 sladegen: usually, the saying goes, "The client is in the hands of the enemy" 16:39:48 (and good evening everyone) 16:40:02 felideon: plus, it's not like you're not allowed to code something before you finish those. It's perfectly reasonable to just go through the PCL chapters you actually care about and completely skip those big scary practicals in the end. 16:40:26 hello beach. 16:40:34 sladegen: that's pretty much how I'm thinking, except I'm trying to make the backend -also- be feature-rich. 16:40:41 sykopomp: yeah I guess you're right. 16:41:11 user__ [n=user@p54925EFD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:13 felideon: I still haven't finished PCL. I got tired because I didn't care much about html, and went ahead and started coding :3 16:41:18 nice 16:41:20 sykopomp: i mean i'm already half way PCL (and towards the end of Gentle Intro) so it wont be long before I can start putting something together 16:41:40 felideon: I think you'd be surprised at how much you can start putting together already. 16:41:42 i actually want to read the HTML ones hehe 16:41:54 so don't let the book discourage you! :) 16:42:02 nah it's not really the book... 16:42:08 it's just that I don't have time :( 16:42:25 :( 16:42:45 flashy 3D graphical games with army of graphic designers also fail because of poor UI interface. "anyway" i merely started writing ncurses mud client ;) so my opinion is moot. 16:42:51 yeah, the 1 yr old kid really takes up 95% of your free time hehe 16:43:02 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has joined #lisp 16:43:10 ncurses.. nice 16:43:18 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17DF8B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:43:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:43:20 no time for 50 years old lisp 16:44:20 ? 16:44:51 Krystof: It seems that (stream-set-input-focus) is only applicable to clim-stream-pane objects. text-field panes don't appear to inherit that. It seems like it should be so simple, faking a click on a text-field pane... 16:46:50 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47F16.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:04 kij` [n=user@0910ds2-vbr.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 16:49:46 <_8david> stu8888: hence my suggestion 16:49:58 kij`` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 16:49:59 <_8david> something like (setf (port-keyboard-input-focus (port *application-frame*)) gadget) should work 16:50:01 Xach: maybe you should have a link somewhere in l1sp.org for lispjobs.wordpress.com 16:50:11 and any other lisp job posting sites if there are any 16:50:48 there is lispjobs at planet.lisp.org 16:51:10 there we go, two links 16:51:12 :) 16:51:29 no 16:51:41 _8david: Sorry, I missed your suggestion. I'll try it now... 16:51:42 holy crap. lispjobs has something I'm interested in >_> 16:52:15 felideon: it's the same lispjobs, and planet lisp is rss aggregate site 16:52:24 oh sry 16:52:25 :) 16:52:40 sykopomp: which one is that 16:52:55 (i promise i wont apply :P) 16:54:49 felideon: the first one on the site hahaha 16:54:53 or the page* 16:54:58 ah 16:55:08 _8david: I'm running that code from a function in the interactor. It removes the focus from the interactor, but the gadget doesn't get it. I may be doing this wrong, though. I'm using (find-pane-named *application-frame* 'my-text-field) to get at the gadget. 16:55:26 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:55:35 ok, besides rdns not yet working (give it a little time) .. is cl-net doing all it should be? 16:55:38 go for it, if you don't mind working in a woman-owned business. 16:55:49 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-126-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:56:33 veteran woman, at that 16:56:59 yeah kind of interesting 16:57:32 felideon: i dunno...i'm not sure a l1sp.org link is more memorable in that case 16:57:39 true 16:58:32 felideon: I don't understand the issue with a woman-owned business >_> 16:58:49 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 16:59:34 No issue. I was just kidding and thought that it was interesting that they had that in the job decription. 16:59:45 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:55 Jarvellis [n=andrew@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:03:03 <_8david> stu8888: that's weird. Does it work with another gadget? Perhaps it's a text-field-specific issue. 17:03:18 <_8david> (if so, we could blame Athas) 17:03:23 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:05:14 _8david: Hmm... let me see if I can figure out another gadget to use. 17:06:20 *Xach* adds http://l1sp.org/lisp/books 17:06:55 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:07:04 *Xach* extends to more 17:07:07 cool. hadnt heard of Successful Lisp 17:07:08 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has joined #lisp 17:07:09 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:07:41 <_8david> Xach: are those links discoverable, or a secret deep-linking thing for those in the know? 17:07:42 -!- kij` [n=user@0910ds2-vbr.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:55 _8david: the latter for now. 17:08:07 _8david: I'd like to make an index of some sort, but it's not there yet. 17:09:53 what exactly is the difference between PG's two Lisp books? 17:10:08 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:09 felideon: one is an introduction to lisp basics, the other is more advanced. 17:10:17 about $200 on Ebay. 17:10:18 felideon: ANSI is more of an introduction, and On Lisp is for more advanced stuff, specially macros. 17:10:23 ah gotcha 17:10:27 thanks 17:10:54 felideon: On Lisp, by the way, has a fantastic chapter on how to write macros, and it talks about how to debug them, etc. 17:11:17 by 'a .. chapter' I mean 'the whole damn thing is about macros' 17:12:24 hehe 17:13:45 Chibapet [n=mason@69.38.177.2] has joined #lisp 17:14:00 drewc: are you using fset? 17:14:30 So, let me go on record as saying that the very existence of quicknet.lisp screams out for the need to restandardize. 17:14:42 Gee, I guess I'll delete it then. 17:14:48 H4ns was right! 17:15:09 Delete quicknet? 17:15:38 Let me go on record as saying HOOGABOOGA. 17:15:46 The effort is good. The need is what's troubling. 17:15:47 I don't know why I said that, but it's on the record now! 17:15:59 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:03 There is probably deep meaning in there, chandler. 17:17:20 I don't want http://l1sp.org/lisp/books to be comprehensive, but does anyone want to suggest a book I didn't include? (i might veto it) 17:17:40 CLtL2! 17:17:51 I left out ANSI Common Lisp and Let Over Lambda because I don't think they're especially worth reading, and I included On Lisp because though I don't like it much, many do and find it worthwhile. 17:17:53 How about the Little Lisper and descendants? 17:17:55 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 17:17:55 chandler: good call 17:18:15 Chibapet: Hmm, I think I'd rather read it first. 17:18:19 the books have to be online, right? 17:18:22 kreuter: no. 17:18:27 oh 17:18:31 Lisp In Small Pieces? 17:18:33 i stuck some amazon links in there 17:18:36 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:47 obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has joined #lisp 17:19:03 Anyone got an opinion on Lisp In Small Pieces? 17:19:05 Xach: Anatomy of Lisp 17:19:17 antoszka: it is a good book about implementing lisp 17:19:21 antoszka: I enjoyed reading it. 17:19:24 thx 17:19:29 -!- aiur [n=Jan@218.109.72.160] has quit [Client Quit] 17:19:30 fe[nl]ix: it's a little hard to get 17:19:46 Fufie [n=punchbal@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:10 Xach: maybe shapiro, CL - an interactive approach 17:20:53 user__: oh, thanks. 17:22:41 I'm going to write a book something called "Your Kitten of Death awaits!" 17:22:44 some day * 17:23:57 w 17:24:35 -!- hans_ is now known as H4nsX 17:24:53 Xach: it's rare, but it can be bought on Amazon 17:25:05 Hm. SICP? 17:25:28 Chibapet: a good book, but i'd rather go with books with a CL angle 17:25:52 fe[nl]ix: true, i bought it. i never found the time to read it so i'm not sure i would recommend it. 17:28:06 Maybe I'm just working against the CLIM idiom of text input. I'm used to entering text into fields, hitting tab as I go to cycle through them. I'm just not crazy about having to click on each text-field before typing into it. 17:29:32 -!- staffordrootbeer [n=chatzill@nat/yahoo/x-c35d3e68b064464b] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:29:45 <_8david> stu8888: well, not long ago it was focus-follows-mouse or something terrible like that. IIUC Krystof fixed that, but there's probably still room for improvement. 17:30:28 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:29 <_8david> I'd guess that assigning focus to a text field explicitly is possible (or was possible at some point), since climplayer does it. 17:31:12 I may have an out-of-date version of mcclim, too. I installed it as a debian package. Maybe I'll try the asdf-install version. 17:31:27 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 17:32:39 I wouldn't imagine the asdf-install version to be any better 17:33:40 and making the problem even worse are the multi-line prompt/input combos that don't fit in the provided space and require you to both click and scroll. 17:33:51 the implementation of focus within a frame is I think simply handled by the port knowing which pane has focus (see port-frame-set-input-focus in Backend/CLX/*.lisp) 17:34:12 *user__* likes debian too, but is using clbuild for lisp related things 17:34:26 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-7.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 17:35:09 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:37:37 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 17:39:36 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:40:28 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:40:42 Krystof: thank you. I've only been at learning mcclim for a couple of weeks, and I don't totally get it yet. so far, it looks to be a good design. I like presentations, etc.. 17:40:57 dkcl [n=dan@110.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:41:33 Another question... am I barking up the wrong tree in using mcclim in the first place? I mean, should I be using some other toolkit for GUI development? 17:42:03 (in lisp, I mean) 17:42:04 stu8888: what are your requirements? 17:42:09 I think that depends on what your aims and needs are 17:42:09 (platform support etc) 17:42:26 how are you creating your text field? 17:42:57 -!- xbxb|afk is now known as xbxb 17:43:16 rsynnott: just linux. This is for my own enjoyment, so no other requirements. I hope I'll be able to use it for something some day. 17:43:42 sylvander_ [n=sylvande@92.22.101.35] has joined #lisp 17:44:08 stu8888: that's a pretty good place to be as far as exploration goes. 17:44:11 Krystof: I'm creating it in the (:panes ...) part of (define-application-frame) I'm using ":text-field" to define it. 17:44:14 you might possibly be better off with a gtk binding or something, especially if you're already used to GUI programming with GTK 17:44:28 staffordrootbeer [n=chatzill@nat/yahoo/x-2010f06d681335b1] has joined #lisp 17:44:53 *Xach* is surprised at post-explosion at planet lisp 17:44:57 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:58 Xach, why do you say that ANSI Common Lisp 17:45:01 is not worth reading? 17:45:20 -!- dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Client Quit] 17:45:32 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:45:46 rsynnott: I'm looking for something that is actively developed, or at least not dead. :) 17:45:48 staffordrootbeer: It's not worthless, just worth less than PCL, for example. 17:45:55 staffordrootbeer: The author's disdain for Common Lisp grates at me. 17:46:05 Xach: fset the lisp library of functional data structures? 17:46:20 disdain? expressed in that book or now? 17:46:34 drewc: yes. whenever i hear about an interesting library that i think i should try but never do, some time later you say "oh, i've been using it to great effect for a long time now!" 17:46:41 drewc: was wondering if this fits that pattern. 17:46:43 staffordrootbeer: both. 17:47:07 staffordrootbeer: the style is abnormal, for common lisp, and omits or disparages big useful parts of common lisp. 17:47:29 staffordrootbeer: Paul Graham's way of handling CL is pretty different from what you'll run into in the community. He expresses disdain for lots of things that really help make lisp amazing (loop macro, CLOS). 17:47:42 also there is no community 17:47:43 Xach: lol :). i've not used it yet, but i keep meaning to, 17:47:58 drewc: ok 17:47:59 >_> what do you mean? 17:48:12 interesting I have really enjoyed his work as well as the art of the metaobject protocol etc. 17:48:26 *sellout* will be sure to remain a dictator when he publishes his language. 17:48:42 staffordrootbeer: i re-read grahams stuff after being a lisper for a year or so and found it left a bad taste in my mouth. 17:48:53 staffordrootbeer: the more i learned about common lisp, the less i found his writing about lisp-the-general-concept not to my preference. ymmv. 17:48:53 wtf, Graham didn't write AMOP 17:48:55 (perhaps i shouldn't be reading with my mouth, but hey) 17:49:07 oops, too many negatives. 17:49:20 I quite like AMOP. 17:49:27 also, his bizarre IF fetish :) 17:49:28 sykopomp: I know he did not I am saying I enjoyed both 17:49:32 AMOP is one of the best books on programming i've read. 17:49:34 ah 17:49:46 I need to get my hands on a copy of it 17:49:55 Xach: what did you mean by 'no community', by the way? 17:49:58 i have a link you can use: http://l1sp.org/lisp/books 17:50:13 sykopomp: there is no lisp community, 17:50:39 sykopomp: well, the people who hang out here are a different set than the people who hang out on comp.lang.lisp or the people who hang out on lispforum or the people who are on the clozure lists and the people who are on the lispworks lists or the people who are involved with the ALU. 17:50:50 sykopomp: there's some overlap but not much 17:51:32 ah, yeah. That makes sense. 17:51:38 lispforum scared me :( 17:51:45 lol! 17:51:45 lispforum? Goodness 17:51:46 it's easy to think that whatever we agree on here in #lisp is somehow "typical", but it's mostly typical of what the people here think and not necessarily much else. 17:52:08 though oddly this is the SAME people as planet.lisp, more or less 17:52:17 rsynnott: that's because i run planet lisp, mostly. 17:52:23 and i'm primarily a #lisper. 17:52:26 solkis [n=tim@12.206.224.41] has joined #lisp 17:52:34 the only other 'community' I've been exposed to is lispforum, though. 17:52:40 Xach: on the major issues #lisp agrees with c.l.l, at least that the way i see it. 17:52:53 Xach: who's been known to encourage people to start, or continue a blog on PL, natch. 17:52:54 in the interest of fairness, you should get the comp.lang people to nominate a blog or too :) 17:52:56 drewc: the yobbos do no such thing! 17:53:09 Xach: fair enough :) 17:53:10 ah, he's not c.l.l. 17:53:10 and there certainly seem to be some c.l.l. people (or ex-c.l.l. people) in here. 17:53:18 sykopomp: some overlap, not a lot. 17:53:21 Xach: ..different people.. is it difference in technical and/or paradigm views and not preference of commmunication medium? (question, no anti-question) 17:53:23 not so much lispforum, that seems like a separate universe altogether. 17:53:24 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-188-161-219.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:27 -!- H4nsX [n=H4ns@p57A0C422.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 17:53:33 sykopomp: the lispworks mailing list is quite interesting and vibrant 17:53:54 lispforum, IIRC, is for webs who are afraid of us and never heard of usenet. 17:53:55 user__: yes. 17:53:55 bah. it's bad enough I have this to procrastinate on 17:54:03 s/webs/newbs/ 17:54:27 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:54:41 drewc: s/newbs/dweebs/ 17:54:49 hush, dweeb 17:54:58 <3 :) 17:55:07 sykopomp: pot meet kettle :) 17:55:16 exactly :P 17:55:35 and I certainly got the 'they're terrified of #lisp' thing. It's all over the forum :( 17:55:39 oh, lol, lispforum could be scary to some today. 17:55:54 Posts: 666! 17:56:02 I do wish that Google would do some sort of spam filtering on their newsfeeds 17:56:14 well, stu8888 is right, that what should work doesn't seem to work 17:56:16 c.l.l seems largely full of ads for replica watches these days 17:56:38 what actually seems to happen when you click on a text field to focus it, is not that the gadget gets focus but that some wierd Drei substrate object gets focus 17:56:45 SCARY, NASTY, MEAN irc channel. Bah. 17:56:47 :) 17:56:48 rsynnott: count your blessings 17:56:51 and Athas isn't here to ask about it 17:57:05 (about the watches, not the scaryness of irc) 17:57:10 Krystof: Woot! And here I was thinking myself retarded. :D 17:57:17 off to meeting.bbiaw 17:57:26 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:57:28 I no longer have access to a proper NNTP server; the ISPs seem to be abandoning them 17:57:43 rsynnott: what do you mean by "proper" ? 17:57:47 rsynnott: i have plans to set one up at tech.coop for lispers in just such straights. 17:57:52 Of course, this doesn't prove I'm *not* retarded... 17:57:58 *Xach* pays 10 euros/year for nntp access, worth every euro-cent 17:58:01 fe[nl]ix: non-Google-Groups 17:58:04 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.228.1] has joined #lisp 17:58:11 (I don't like its interface at all) 17:58:20 <_8david> oh, that's what the climi::substrate call is for in climplayer? :-> 17:58:55 Xach: what provider is that ? 17:59:01 news.individual.net 17:59:25 a service of fu-berlin 17:59:32 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-121-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:59 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:00:54 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:59 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E470AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:11 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C422.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:24 does anyone know of any articles on optimisation with type declaration? 18:05:27 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 18:05:49 -!- mythos [n=mythos@091-141-003-174.dyn.orange.at] has left #lisp 18:07:20 rsynnott: articles or books? 18:08:08 either 18:08:20 'optimizing compilers for modern architectures' has a lot of good stuff 18:08:26 though it's been a while since i read it. 18:08:41 oh, sorry, I meant specifically in CL :) 18:08:44 rsynnott: i remember reading a blog or two where declaring the types on sbcl caused a net loss of speed :) 18:09:09 isn't OCforMA all about loops in FORTRAN? 18:09:20 mostly, yes 18:09:55 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-db1054ec4cc56b23] has joined #lisp 18:11:49 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:12:41 Xach: Is this a common type of visualization? This struck me as terribly familiar: http://github.com/sykopomp/sykosomatic/graphs/impact 18:13:25 sykopomp: it was inspired by my work 18:13:52 awesome! 18:13:54 *Xach* finds theirs a little visually not as nice in some ways, but still nice they did the js canvas 18:14:34 sykopomp: are you in toronto? is there a meeting this month? 18:14:45 Xach: no, I'm actually in Massachusetts. 18:14:54 I think drewc is the one in toronto. 18:15:07 *drewc* lived in toronto for 17 years, but is in vancouver 18:15:10 drewc is on a boat off the coast of canada 18:15:11 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 18:15:15 west coast that is 18:15:18 ah, that's right. 18:15:34 omouse is in toronto and he sometimes emails me about meetings. but then again ramarren is in poland. 18:15:54 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:15:57 oh yes, optikalmouse is. 18:16:05 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:16:16 ...I love the internet. 18:16:27 i went to the inaugural toronto lisp meeting last year. 18:16:43 met omouse + others.. good times. 18:17:06 sykopomp: are you coming to the october lisp meeting? 18:17:09 in boston? 18:17:17 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44969.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:17:37 Xach: possibly not to this one, although I'm planning on driving over there with mogunus for a meeting, hopefully before the end of the year. 18:17:45 the inaugural boston lisp meeting too! i was there, though we didn't really call it a lisp meeting.. more like me and nikodemus and nyef got drunk in cambridge :) 18:18:01 it sounds like oodles of fun :( 18:18:16 drewc: i went to one like that too. lots of fun. 18:18:50 i also got to eat poutine with Fare and YGingras at 1:30am in montreal while they discussed lisp hacking and nethack strategies 18:19:02 *Xach* has had lots of fun with lispers in real life! 18:19:13 actually, when is the october meeting? 18:19:21 Xach: that sounds like a good one too : 18:19:27 it's not up on fare's blog yet. 18:19:42 sykopomp: it's on his announcement of last month's, actually. it's october 27th 18:19:52 hmm 18:22:22 I'll ask mogunus if he can make it to that one. I'm unlikely to drive all the way to boston just for myself (I'm in western ma) 18:22:36 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-7.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:40 *dlowe* is still hurting from not going to the last boston-lisp meeting. 18:22:47 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:23:00 Good thing I didn't, though. I had a stomach virus that evening. 18:23:15 stomach virus in a room full of people is generally unpleasant 18:23:32 that is my experience, at least. Others might feel otherwise. 18:23:36 full A/B/C suit, no problem 18:23:37 It wasn't that great by myself :/ 18:24:05 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:25:02 *dlowe* is sad that lispforum is using phpBB 18:25:48 *Jarvellis* is sad that /anyone/ is using phpBB 18:25:56 *sykopomp* is using phpBB 18:26:01 Xach: damn you, now I'm hungry for one (poutine) too (: 18:26:01 *Chibapet* was sad to be using phpBB until recently. 18:26:06 there isn't a lot of very good forum software out there, sadly 18:26:13 oh wait, no. I'm using punBB 18:26:18 i'm a better person now. 18:26:26 clearly, someone needs to write a lisp one :) 18:26:48 i have one of those lying around somewhere .. maybe i should dust it off. 18:26:50 *Jarvellis* still is using phpBB, but has the decency to be ashamed of it 18:26:53 lambdaBB 18:27:18 I was making an integrated forum/wiki once, but it got pushed out of the priority queue 18:27:31 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbc639.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 18:27:46 later, all 18:27:47 -!- Chibapet [n=mason@69.38.177.2] has quit [] 18:28:01 I did a silly all-in-memory blog once 18:28:09 but a forum seems just a bit too painful 18:28:18 rsynnott: using a prevalence scheme? 18:28:32 ahem. No. 18:28:36 soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has joined #lisp 18:28:40 it was just after I started playing with lisp 18:28:45 dlowe: yeah, i built my forum on top of cliki actually 18:28:46 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-243-136.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 18:28:48 dlowe: speaking of prevalence. Are you using something like bknr's datastore, or did you go with a database? 18:29:01 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:29:13 it could save its state to disk by iterating over things, turning them into lists, writing them to disk and then using the reader when reading them back in 18:29:22 sykopomp: Database for stuff shared by the website, files for everything else 18:29:28 cliki's datastore is not the best, but it works surprisingly well for many situations. 18:29:39 dlowe: relational, or object? 18:29:42 dlowe: for the mud?? 18:29:53 rsynnott: relational database for the stuff shared by the website 18:29:55 drewc: what's it like? (the cliki datastore) 18:30:20 on the plus side, it had comments and an rss file 18:30:28 sykopomp: files are the fastest, most reliable object store if you're not worried about concurrency 18:30:46 and was in a single file, because it was before I'd discovered asdf :) 18:30:51 rsynnott: store everything on disk in single directory. different versions have .1 .2 extensions etc. 18:31:05 ah, right 18:31:09 dlowe: I'm hoping you don't mean individual files. It's a mess to deal with files. 18:31:15 filesystems don't like that 18:31:19 sykopomp: not one per object, no 18:31:29 and there is an 'index' file for each page, which is parsed at load time. 18:31:37 though it's surprisingly common; a LOT of old webapps do it 18:31:55 dlowe: SoI uses one file per object, organized across folders by region. It has over 1,000,000 objects, but they don't really have a proper count of it. 18:32:03 if you split it into a directory hierarchy, it's fine 18:32:21 but most modern filesystems don't like many thousands of files per directory 18:32:37 yeah... 18:32:43 rsynnott: i've got plans to replace it with rucksack eventually. 18:33:14 s/got// 18:33:39 rsynnott: well, /modern/ ones are okay with it. /popular/ ones, OTOH... 18:33:43 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 18:33:56 ah, yes, well :) 18:35:43 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:03 -!- stu8888 [n=soverton@75.145.221.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:37:42 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 18:37:46 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c8dabfce562eb4f9] has joined #lisp 18:38:36 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.244.243] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:39 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:40:27 sykopomp what is SoI ? 18:40:28 asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:54 xristos: shadows of isildur http://www.middle-earth.us/index.php?display=referral 18:41:38 sykopomp: written in lisp? 18:41:41 written in lisp ? 18:41:44 no 18:41:44 heh 18:41:53 i'm losing slime connection after a while of my program outputting text with ;; swank:close-connection: end of file on #, any ideas how to fix that? 18:42:06 I was just mentioning it because it uses the file-based database thing 18:42:09 and it's awful and horrible 18:42:14 clojure wouldn't be a bad thing to write that in, actually 18:42:29 i'd rather use clos 18:42:57 you don't really need concurrency for a mud 18:43:16 hmm, I suppose you could get away without it 18:43:24 and clos would be very helpful, granted 18:43:28 why overcomplicate things 18:43:34 clos has been extremely useful 18:44:13 asdf25: i haven't run into anything like that...you might check on the slime list 18:44:32 asdf25: is it a local connection? 18:44:34 ok i'll do that if it keeps happening 18:44:35 yeah it is 18:44:46 rsynnott i'm toying with the idea of writing something like a mud 18:44:51 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb8e72.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:56 ajax based though 18:45:00 oh, could you be outputting non-ascii text? 18:45:23 xristos: I want to have a javascript client for mine, actually. What kind of stuff are you thinking of doing? 18:45:27 slime does support utf-8, but it's not switched on by default 18:45:33 well it wouldn't be a mud in the screenfull of text per action sense 18:45:35 very unlikely that i'd be outputting non-ascii text 18:45:40 because i'd like to have graphics 18:45:52 my program doesn't use any non-ascii 18:45:55 but the underlying mechanics would be similar 18:45:56 and if you try to do it without it switched on, that happens 18:45:57 ah 18:45:57 xristos: then all you'll need is a team of artists :) 18:46:09 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:46:24 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:46:25 xristos: want to talk about joining forces? :P 18:46:29 i saw an ad of a company looking for lispers for web based games in c.l.l 18:46:47 i think there is quite a niche there 18:46:54 agreed... 18:47:13 sykopomp sure 18:47:40 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has joined #lisp 18:48:42 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 18:49:20 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.139.114] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:51:03 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:51:56 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:54:14 "LispForum has a lot of newbies (and indeed was created to help foster that), so it could be that all the old, crufty smug Lisp weenies hanging out on comp.lang.lisp have a completely different usage profile." - heheh 18:59:11 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:59:56 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:02:43 off topic, but my dad is pestering me about a new laptop, and im saying macbook pro (i tierd of calls about broken windows) anyone with a different take? 19:03:00 That's very off-topic. 19:03:18 jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:24 Ifur: wrong channel. 19:04:10 schasi [n=schasi@p54A26ED4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:24 Xach & _8david : Hey, I was stu8888 a minute ago. I just wanted to thank you guys for your help. :) 19:06:24 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Success] 19:06:29 vasa [n=vasa@mm-126-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 19:07:26 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 19:07:28 soverton: no problem! 19:11:33 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-78-191.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:14:52 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A10DE.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:16:17 -!- ivanst [i=ivans@89-172-22-81.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:16:25 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-78-191.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:57 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:18:20 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 19:19:51 slime cvs and cvs snapshot seem to be down 19:22:14 hum 19:22:32 i am getting consistent memory faults with sbcl 1.0.21 19:23:19 fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 8567(tid 8415744): 19:23:20 GC invariant lost, file "gc-common.c", line 199 19:23:31 this is on osx with threads 19:23:55 and happens everytime i use terminate thread restart 19:23:56 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:24:07 asdf25: you can get it from git://git.boinkor.net/slime.git 19:25:05 thanks 19:26:47 ivanst [i=ivans@78-1-54-82.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:28:23 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:28:56 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbc639.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:29:01 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 19:29:08 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:29:28 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:08 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-193.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:36 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c8dabfce562eb4f9] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:33:52 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:38:24 hijole [i=IceChat7@ppp85-140-189-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:40:01 asdf25: yup, working on it. 19:45:37 -!- solkis [n=tim@12.206.224.41] has left #lisp 19:47:00 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-db1054ec4cc56b23] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:47:13 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:51 mulligan [n=user@e178044034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:49:45 prxq [n=mommer@BAI0acb.bai.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 19:49:52 hi 19:50:40 hi prxq 19:50:41 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E450ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:22 -!- sylvander_ [n=sylvande@92.22.101.35] has quit ["leaving"] 19:51:33 hi Xach 19:52:08 milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.76] has joined #lisp 19:55:31 RadioApeShot [n=toups@207.59.145.201] has joined #lisp 19:57:01 So I have accidentally declared a generic with the wrong lambda list in SBCL and it will not let me redefine it correctly because some stale method declarations match the old list. I cannot redeclare the methods either. Is there any way to remove a generic method declaration from a running lisp? 19:57:18 clhs fmakunbound 19:57:35 RadioApeShot: http://l1sp.org/cl/fmakunbound 19:57:35 eh? 19:57:36 oh oh 19:57:45 Xach's playing specbot again? 19:58:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fmakun.htm 19:59:04 Thank you folks 19:59:28 specbot is lagging, eh? 19:59:37 clhs null 19:59:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_null.htm 19:59:52 *chandler* blames disk access 20:00:08 oh yeah, that'd be my fault actually. 20:00:17 i was just updating the pserver repos. 20:01:15 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-243-136.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 20:01:32 chandler: I promise you we'll do something about that in the near future. 20:01:35 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:02:47 It is really weird that it is fmakunbound 20:02:54 And not fmakEunbound 20:03:06 Unless mak stands for something I don't know 20:03:46 Does it? 20:03:53 no 20:03:58 the name is very old 20:04:12 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:04:23 and like the grumpy 50-year-olds on IRC, you shouldn't tease it 20:04:34 From back before they make with an e? 20:04:38 spelled 20:04:43 They spelled make with an e? 20:04:44 the last time I looked, I convinced myself it was by analogy to some other, probably older operator MAK, whose name was 6 characters long. 20:05:03 probably that other operator came from a time when operator names were meant to fit into a single sixbit word. 20:05:15 I have to admit this may be one of those things that people are talking about when people talk about Common Lisp. 20:05:16 RadioApeShot: 'e' used to be more optional in English during the 1970s. Hence 'creat', too. 20:05:32 RadioApeShot: I doubt it. 20:05:47 Well, they may be talking about it without knowing. 20:05:51 A general sense of cruft. 20:06:00 That is what many people experience. 20:06:24 Still 20:06:35 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:06:38 Better than the alternatives, generally 20:06:45 well, you can whinge about it, or get on with your life. 20:06:47 Maybe except some scheme systems. 20:06:53 I am in grad school 20:06:56 So I can't get on with my life. 20:07:01 But I see your point. 20:07:02 <_3b> not like C doesn't have the same problems 20:07:05 didn't someone ask dennis ritchie if he had any regrets about the design or implementation of unix, and he said "just one: that named the system call 'creat' instead of 'create'" 20:07:20 lemonodor: I've heard that, yeah. 20:07:23 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E470AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:25 right before saying "get off my lawn!" 20:07:36 lemonodor: I think it was Ken Thompson, and he did fix it in Plan 9. 20:08:35 -!- kleppari [n=spa@85-220-66-164.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit ["leaving"] 20:08:55 he fixed the spelling, or got rid of creat()? 20:09:22 schlarf [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:52 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A26ED4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:10:09 can i only download slime from cvs? meh i dont have cvs, how can i get slme without cvs? 20:10:13 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 20:10:39 I would just get cvs 20:10:40 And darcs 20:10:42 and git 20:10:48 and everyone of the things 20:10:56 And use clbuild for your whole set up 20:11:05 RadioApeShot: You're rambling. 20:11:10 schlarf: there's a git mirror here: git://git.boinkor.net/slime.git 20:11:47 if ViewCVS on clnet weren't broken, there'd be an option to download a tarball 20:12:20 in case you don't want to install git, there is http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/slime.git?a=snapshot;h=HEAD;sf=tgz 20:12:48 -!- obsethryl [n=llort@unaffiliated/obsethryl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:14:08 I noticed today someone used a link like that for an asdf-install page. 20:15:14 Clever, if you're of the belief that there's no reason to make a release of software. 20:15:48 <_8david> there's certainly a reason to make a release: it's an opportunity to blog about 20:15:54 -!- schlarf [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 20:16:20 _8david: Oh, hi. 20:16:27 releases are nice 20:16:43 Why does CXML check for wide character support every time I load it? 20:16:44 <_8david> anyway, that trick needs an .asc file generator script sitting next to it, then it's actually cool 20:17:48 <_8david> chandler: hmm, what else would you suggest? I didn't want to use implementation-specific features like #+sbcl, so I'm doing it dynamically instead. 20:18:03 Wouldn't it be good enough to do it at compile time? 20:18:30 Or is there some Lisp where this could change without introducing FASL incompatibility? 20:18:44 (IIRC alisp8 and alisp have incompatible FASLS, but I could be wrong) 20:18:45 <_8david> Well, the .asd file needs the feature, so the feature is set up before defining the system. 20:18:53 <_8david> (Perhaps I'm missing something obvious.) 20:19:02 Hm. 20:19:42 You could have ASDF compile and load a file right away which does the detection, but that's not what I'd call obvious. 20:19:58 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 20:20:03 <_8david> I'm pretty sure current closure-common doesn't spend much time on that check though, it only looks at specific code points, which is fast. 20:20:17 <_8david> I could disable the debugging output if that's more comforting. 20:20:30 It's not slow. I only noticed it because it announced itself :-) 20:20:54 Yes, turning off the printing is probably the best way to avoid confusing people like me. 20:20:54 <_8david> Ah, the "Naggum effect". 20:21:02 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 20:21:14 -!- hijole [i=IceChat7@ppp85-140-189-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit ["OUCH!!!"] 20:21:29 <_8david> (Disable GC messages and nobody will notice GC. Enable them and everyone will complain.) 20:21:53 isn't that obvious? 20:21:53 Yes, I think that's the case here. 20:22:42 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-78-191.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:22:53 anyone has repo for slime ? 20:22:58 official seems to be down 20:22:58 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:23:21 <_8david> I'm still tempted to reimplement runes completely anyway. 20:23:29 <_8david> (But it's good that I don't actually have time for that, since it'd be pretty pointless now that even cmucl has unicode.) 20:23:38 _8david: Also, is there a method provided to unescape a string? I could wrap a tag around it and invoke the parser, but that seems ugly. 20:24:28 <_8david> hmm, no, I never had to do that. 20:25:19 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:25:42 It's not a big deal. I already have a function to do it for the standard XML entities, and I'm not sure what I'd do about DTD-provided entities anyway. 20:25:54 (Probably nothing.) 20:26:52 xristos: git://git.boinkor.net/slime.git 20:28:49 EvanR__ [n=chatzill@adsl-157-49-216.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:26 -!- user__ [n=user@p54925EFD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:29:40 Xach: herep 20:29:46 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 20:29:46 gigamonk`: hi 20:30:08 So that .pdf of PCL that zbrahead91 turned up isn't even the Apress version. 20:30:17 gigamonkey: no? is it a html scrape or something? 20:30:24 looks like. 20:30:28 I can't decide whether I should send them a nastygram or just let it slide. 20:30:41 are those the only two choices? 20:30:51 and what's the status of redistributing the apress PDF? 20:30:57 Well, I don't have time to write them a nice letter. ;-) 20:32:12 Dunno. The link on Apress's site to the "free ebook" is a direct link. But copyright still applies so random folks don't have any particular right to redistribute it. 20:32:37 (One of the easily noted differences between the Apress PDF and the other one is the Apress version includes the copyright page.) 20:32:45 a nastygram can be short and almost nice 20:32:57 please remove and replace with this URL or else 20:33:27 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:24 Is there any particular reason why the Apress ebook needs to be redistributed? 20:34:25 I guess the main thing is, will people who use the infringing version find out about the dead tree version? 20:34:39 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:34:42 -!- ivanst [i=ivans@78-1-54-82.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:35:07 oddly enough, there's a third-party html version of On Lisp floating about, too 20:35:17 chandler: You mean why don't they just link to the Apress site? I don't see any particular reason why they couldn't. 20:35:49 rsynnott: the urge to pirate transcends the pointlessness in some circumstances 20:35:54 gigamonkey: That's what I'm wondering. It seems pointless to me. 20:36:05 -!- rdd`` [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:36:22 with a black background, for some reason 20:36:32 more emo 20:36:49 spacebat: well, the "bootleg" PDF starts with a picture of the cover so you'd at least have a chance to know it's an actual book with a publisher. 20:37:15 sounds worthy of a short missive 20:38:07 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:38:09 I got the apress PDF and started on it, then my birthday rolled around and I got ANSI Common Lisp 20:38:16 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9eba572527a703ad] has joined #lisp 20:38:23 getting PCL for xmas I think 20:38:44 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 20:39:34 I keep my copy next to my laptop at work. great book. 20:39:37 I just woke up from a dream involving snipers, tornados, demons and zombies - it was b-grade movie heaven 20:39:49 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 20:40:01 Anybody here know this guy: http://cognition.iig.uni-freiburg.de/team/members/strube/strube.htm ? 20:40:04 wish I could find an excuse to use CL at work 20:40:41 -!- EvanR__ [n=chatzill@adsl-157-49-216.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:40:56 gigamonkey: no, but it looks like he's wanted for crimes against HTML 20:41:14 EvanR__ [n=chatzill@adsl-222-39-183.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:15 spacebat: I run a small linux server and have started doing everything in CL. I'm the only developer, so it's a pretty sweet deal. :) 20:41:22 Or can anyone (probably someone who reads German) figure out from this directory http://cognition.iig.uni-freiburg.de/teaching/veranstaltungen/ws05/ who I ought to email about the bootleg PDF? 20:41:24 yay 20:42:23 there's one other programmer in my team, and I can't expect her or my eventual successor to use CL 20:42:40 alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:26 My boss only knows RPG, so CL, python, perl, C, etc... it's all greek to him anyway. 20:43:34 spacebat: you need to raise your expectations. ;-) 20:43:36 ths_ [n=ths@p549AF225.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:58 where is the authorized PDF? 20:44:08 we're a Perl shop, maybe a sprinkling of alien technology would do us good 20:44:22 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AEA73.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Operation timed out] 20:44:22 http://www.apress.com/book/view/1590592395 20:44:24 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:44:38 -!- EvanR [n=chatzill@adsl-250-238-122.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [No route to host] 20:44:39 You can either pay US$41.99 for the e-book or download it for free. 20:44:45 -!- EvanR__ is now known as EvanR 20:44:54 Which, given the state of the US economy, is approaching being the same thing. :-| 20:45:02 :) 20:45:14 don't believe the hype. 20:45:17 ``All it needs to say now on start up is "your puppy of destruction is prepared for you" and I can remove SBCL once and for all.'' - Barry Perryman on openmcl-devel, about the CCL Win32 port. 20:45:51 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:45:54 bush could start throwing nukes around to distract people from the ~$2T public debt 20:46:02 Is there a CCL Win32 port underway? 20:46:15 gigamonkey: Indeed, and it even 75% works! 20:46:17 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:46:27 *gigamonkey* must not have been paying attention. 20:46:32 spacebat: maybe you could twist the other developer's arm? :) 20:46:35 gigamonkey: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.openmcl.devel/2878 20:46:53 also, darwin32 20:47:08 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 20:47:24 there was an intersting article about its GC on planet lisp a couple of week back 20:47:54 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:47:58 gigamonkey: Given that Prof. Dr. Gerhard Strube's name is on some of the code in that directory, I think he may be a reasonable choice to email 20:47:58 and linux-32 too 20:48:01 http://cognition.iig.uni-freiburg.de/team/members/strube/strube.htm 20:48:02 gigamonkey: http://cognition.iig.uni-freiburg.de/teaching/veranstaltungen/ws05/IK-2.htm is the only page that links to that pdf 20:48:05 I guess the real question is, is this just an interesting exercise or is there some CCL developer who really uses Windows and thus wants it to work 100%? 20:48:33 I believe the x86 port is being funded. I don't know about the Windows port, but it may be too. 20:48:38 soverton: other teams at the uni have started to use ruby for everything 20:49:01 fe[nl]ix: thanks. 20:49:09 mainly for reasons of hype (and to get away from peoplesoft), so it would be nice to challenge that 20:49:16 chandler: any chance anybody would fund lisp-in-java projects? 20:49:37 spacebat: i've noticed that trend at a lot of unis. 20:49:40 I keep meaning to check out armed bear CL 20:49:44 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:46 spacebat: I hear that ruby is inspired by lisp, but I've never used it. 20:49:57 so is perl and python 20:50:05 true 20:50:10 soverton: I came from (9 years) in ruby. it's fun to see the lineage. 20:50:13 ehu: I don't know. It certainly helps that Clozure has made a name for itself as a talented team of Lisp hackers for hire. 20:50:14 ruby has beeter metaprogramming I think 20:50:18 ruby has a semi-lispy feel to it, I noticed 20:50:20 soverton: everything except ruby's object model is similar. 20:50:20 All languages are inspired by lisp. Some are inspired to be like it; others to be as much unlike it as possible. 20:50:23 but still not homoiconic 20:50:25 soverton: since it has call/cc, I'd say it's inspired by scheme more than lisp. 20:50:29 spacebat: 'better metaprogramming' <-- huh? 20:50:30 (common lisp) 20:50:33 and spacebat: not even close. the MOP > * 20:50:47 I always thought of Ruby as Smalltalk with odd syntax. Most Smalltalks have call/cc, too. 20:50:48 :) 20:50:55 yeah, I don't know of anything that even tickles the MOP. :( 20:51:01 or macros 20:51:03 spacebat: Yeah, umm, Ruby has much worse metaprogramming than Lisp. 20:51:22 I meant ruby has better metaprogramming than perl/python 20:51:33 CL had me at macros. :P 20:51:34 spacebat: what are you talking about, 'better' 20:51:50 you're throwing poo out in the air and making little sense. Please explain what you mean 'better' 20:52:01 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:10 there is a module that lets you work with the AST 20:52:13 chandler: hmm. yea; guess that's the way to go for marketing, I guess. 20:52:14 because, personally, I dislike ruby's perlish syntax. That's personal opinion and taste. 20:52:19 ehu: If you're trying to get funding for improving ABCL, I'd say the place to start is to encourage people to use it. Having a clean web site with a clear description of how to start using it, along with regular releases, would probably be the best way to accomplish this. 20:52:20 to do limited macros 20:52:40 spacebat: \emph{limited} 20:52:58 yes, but I've not seen any hint of that capability in perl/python 20:53:03 heh :-) yes. I'll need to improve in a lot of areas. 20:53:06 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:53:09 without dropping to C and doing everything yourself 20:53:09 ehu: Also, it may help to have an incorporated entity so you can say "contact Deadly Ursines, LLC for commercial support" 20:53:29 I don't really know much about metaprogramming in Python 20:53:34 s/much/anything/ 20:53:42 it has metaclasses at least 20:54:36 perl has Moose which was inspired by the MOP/CLOS 20:54:37 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["ciao"] 20:55:41 but probably doesn't come close 20:56:01 *rsynnott* googles, shudders 20:56:13 rsynnott: don't look directly at it! 20:56:13 *ehu* can probably get a company up and running 20:56:17 and they say lisp has scary syntax! 20:56:18 oh god. metaprogramming in perl actually sounds pretty awful 20:56:35 ehu: as long as you keep making usocket all sexy and stuff. <3 20:56:42 hans [n=H4ns@p57A0C422.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:46 sykopomp: sure. it follows from the fact that programming in perl is pretty awful. 20:56:49 Perl is great evidence that insanity wins over elegance for the average person. 20:56:54 -!- hans is now known as H4nsX 20:57:05 rsynnott: can't have scary syntax if you have no syntax. 20:57:06 >_> 20:57:08 sykopomp: I don't think anybody would fund me for usocket. 20:57:18 ehu: I'll send you a dollar :( 20:57:27 although that's about all I have left :( 20:57:29 but the same company could address usocket too. 20:57:37 heh, i find out for lisp doing perl 20:57:46 been sending money to iceland lately? 20:58:01 I'll put it in a bottle and hope it floats that way? 20:58:02 kleppari [n=spa@85-220-66-164.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 20:58:33 Hmmm. Googling 'practical common lisp pdf' and that uni-freiberg.de link is the top result so zbrahead91 is probably not the only one to find it. 20:58:38 Bah. 20:58:55 gigamonkey: scam'd 20:59:06 *rsynnott* wonders what will happen to eve online now that the UK has frozen icelandic assets 20:59:13 whoa what 20:59:21 I obviously missed something here. 20:59:22 ehu: I think ABCL is fund-worthy, but often times people want to fund things that they percieve already have support (regardless of how much support is actually behind it). Making sure the site is professional, releases are regular, issues are tracked well and responded to quickly, etc is a good way to reassure possible funders that their money will not be wasted. 20:59:22 I always thought that was an interesting game from a technical perspective 20:59:44 gigamonkey: Perhaps it would help to make mention of the PDF on your web site. 20:59:46 sykopomp: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7662027.stm 21:00:26 chandler: yeah. Though I'm ambivalent about the PDF since Apress made me give up royalties to keep my website up and then started giving away the PDF for free without even mentioning it to me. 21:00:26 ehu: it can suffice to find just one or two customers willing to support your work. 21:00:31 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-126-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:00:34 Though that's really just petty. 21:01:03 pettiness gets us a long way 21:01:03 IIRC, the fellow who maintains Scieneer does that. 21:01:06 strong motivating factor 21:01:23 But maybe if they suck so bad at letting the world know their PDF exists (and it seems lots of sites have a link to some old Apress URL which is now busted) I should take matters into my own hands. 21:02:07 -!- RadioApeShot [n=toups@207.59.145.201] has left #lisp 21:02:17 Ignoring bootleg copies would be petty too, but if any of those copies are of poor quality it may unintentionally reflect poorly on the book. 21:02:18 didn't know the pdf was even available free 21:02:48 rsynnott: let's keep it that way. ;-) 21:03:02 gigamonkey: That sucks about the royalties. That's why I bought the book in the first place, to support the author. 21:03:02 you could take it as a compliment; the book is obviously good enough that people are putting effort into ripping it off :) 21:03:16 soverton: well, I didn't give them *all* up. 21:03:25 good :) 21:03:44 as always with books, using the website and posting the author a check for 40 quid would work better for that :) 21:03:58 rsynnott: true 21:04:49 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 21:04:49 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:04:49 It irritates me about the PDF because I figured the web site would be good for people who just couldn't/wouldn't pay for a real book but just inconvenient enough that some people would give up and buy it. The PDF changes that equation some. 21:04:51 If I had one of those ebook reader thingies, I would have done that. 21:05:17 a pdf is surely even more inconvenient for most people? 21:05:41 rsynnott: except the people who print it at kinko's for $20 21:05:44 I prefer pdfs to html for ebooks, for some reason. 21:05:54 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has quit [" LaTeX has no safeword."] 21:06:34 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:07:38 wow, JonL White is speaking at Lisp50! That really makes me want to sign up!! 21:07:58 Lisp50 is different than the next ILC, right? 21:08:06 *gigamonkey* has, once again, not really been paying attention. 21:08:13 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:08:43 I think it's an OOPSLA thing, no? 21:08:50 yeah, it's a thing happening at OOPSLA in a week or so 21:09:04 not that I'm likely to go to the next ILC either, assuming for the sake of argument that the ALU manages to organize it 21:09:28 Dan Weinreb is the main organizer--I think he'll probably pull it off. 21:09:30 :( 21:09:36 And Guy Steele is involved. 21:09:44 I.e. not really the ALU this time around. 21:09:47 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-dd6afc120505ab54] has joined #lisp 21:10:08 gigamonkey: what, like he's pulling off the revolutionizing of airport middleware? 21:10:32 ILC 2012, here we come! 21:10:46 gigamonkey: I didn't stay for the ALU meeting after ILC'05. Didn't you wind up on the board, or is my memory off? 21:11:07 chandler: I did. But I resigned in 2006 before my daughter was born. 21:11:20 Ah. 21:11:25 (Though not *just* because my daughter was about to be born.) 21:12:51 And when I was on the board I was trying to encourage Krystof and others to wage a proxy fight and take over the ALU. 21:13:41 does the ALU actually do anything? or is that the trouble? 21:14:01 It occasionally organizes ILCs. 21:14:07 Not much. They own lisp.org and organize (or at least sponsor) the ILC. 21:14:46 so why was there a need to take it over? 21:14:55 because it could do more 21:14:56 -!- prxq [n=mommer@BAI0acb.bai.pppool.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:15:02 Because then lisp.org could be an actually useful site, etc. 21:15:05 What Krystof said. 21:15:10 fair 'nuff. 21:15:10 well, it could have a lisp.org that wasn't massively outdated useless piece of yellow 21:15:38 I think it's more important that there be a useful site than for it to have the URL "lisp.org". 21:15:46 vasa [n=vasa@mm-126-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 21:15:53 -!- Paraselene__ [n=None@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [] 21:15:55 well, that's why I didn't play the proxy fight, in the end 21:16:09 I decided it was easier for the ALU to be lame than for me to spend energy fixing it 21:16:13 chandler: more useful site > lisp.org 21:16:23 but, more useful site + lisp.org > more useful site 21:16:27 b4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:16:30 if someone did make a useful site, i can't imagine it would take much to convince ALU to use it for lisp.org 21:17:04 I don't know, I think they'd worry excessively that the more useful site didn't give equal weight to Gold Hill Common Lisp 21:17:14 Heh. 21:17:21 (I am not, in fact, joking) 21:17:36 *gigamonkey* is not, in fact, laughing. 21:17:42 see? :-) 21:17:50 what? 21:17:51 Hi, I am kinda new to Lisp, and after playing around wi---(hey, are you gigamonkey, from the book?) 21:18:04 b4: yes. 21:18:06 foom: cliki? 21:18:17 hah nice, great book, many thanks for putting it online for free 21:18:21 I think common-lisp.net plus CLiki has about 90% of the raw materials. 21:18:30 thanks. Glad you're enjoying it. 21:18:41 I don't think cliki makes for a good lisp advocacy site 21:18:46 See, you did not give up the intangible royalties of warm thanks and appreciation! 21:18:53 Does lisp.org really need to be an advocacy site? 21:19:16 I've come to the part where the book is kinda vague, which is why I'm asking here :) installing and using packages 21:19:24 an informative site is far better than an advocacy site 21:19:31 cliki might not be good for advocacy perhaps but I find it's a great reference resource to have 21:19:33 cliki isn't desperately informative, either 21:19:34 I don't think there's a lot of need for it to be a links to outdated crappy libraries 21:19:40 site 21:20:04 I'm a little overwhelmed by the ASDF and then the ASDF-installer and all those different implementations of common lisp and and and... and I'm just used to python with import somedir and done... ._. 21:20:12 I'm not fond of CLiki-as-software-distribution-mechanism. 21:20:19 There should be another series of videos like the sicp ones from way back. 21:20:27 b4: FWIW, I don't use ASDF-installer. 21:20:38 but yes, "advocacy" was probably the wrong word to use 21:20:40 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 21:20:54 gigamonkey, I wanted to play around with cl-weblocks but it requires the asdf-installer 21:21:05 to get some hands-on practice 21:21:08 Hmmmm. Requires, or just uses. 21:21:18 oh... ehh.. no idea 21:21:33 Actually, don't listen to me. There are probably folks here who can help you with ASDF-installer. 21:21:36 on the installation page it said "enter this and this" and it was an (asdf-install:...) 21:21:57 I just grab tar balls and unpack them and add them to my asdf:*central-registry* and follow dependencies by hand. 21:22:02 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:22:03 But I'm a cretin. 21:22:15 ouh -_- there are a lot of dependencies for weblocks :( 21:22:21 gigamonkey: I actually did the same, but I still consider myself a CL newbie :) 21:22:29 b4: what CL implementation? 21:22:47 -!- keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:22:52 b4: so, what happened when you did the (asdf-install:... thing? 21:22:52 sykopomp, whatever is necessary, I worry more about getting weblocks to run than about some particular implementation 21:22:55 I have not tried the "portable" asdf-install. The one which comes with SBCL essentially does for me what gigamonkey does by hand. 21:23:03 (modulo complaints about GPG keys) 21:23:13 Krystof, an error message, but their wiki is offline now so I can't repro to tell you what it was 21:23:17 I used ecl 21:23:19 b4: I'm asking which one you're using. 21:23:20 ah 21:23:37 b4: google has cached the wiki 21:23:40 I used clisp to follow through the gigamonkeys book 21:23:57 but it did not have asdf and then I read ecl had that built-in, so I used that 21:24:02 b4: but, it's fair to say that the wiki installation instructions assume that you already know what you're doing 21:24:03 Krystof, k, good idea, I'll try that 21:24:22 Krystof, yeah, I was suspecting that... :P 21:24:49 b4: if you don't have any great investment in ECL, I'd say use SBCL, if only because many of the folk here do and will thus be more able/likely to help you. 21:25:05 so, my advice would probably be to pick a different project to learn the infrastructure with 21:25:16 because this one doesn't make good use of any of it 21:25:31 gigamonkey, roger.. I'll try to install sbcl now then. 21:25:59 Krystof, do you perhaps have any good suggestions? 21:26:18 I'm not a web programmer, I'm afraid 21:26:36 but you could do worse than play with hunchentoot; it's relatively easy to get dynamic websites going 21:27:01 it's not a "framework", just a server, but it is a Lisp web server, so... :) 21:27:01 iit doesn't have to be a web framework 21:27:13 Didn't Marco Beringer do a video about hunchentoot? 21:27:24 alternatively, once you've installed sbcl, you could try clbuild as an alternative distribution mechanism 21:27:31 and you can put together your own mini-framework behind it relatively easily 21:27:33 "./clbuild build weblocks" may or may not work 21:27:38 I figure if I get the basic idea of how to install packages I can try to install weblocks again 21:27:46 oh ok, thanks for all the suggestions :) 21:27:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:28:40 benny [n=benny@i577A0C9B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:30:51 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 21:30:56 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:18 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:32:11 heya. has anyone else noticed sbcl 1.0.19 is hanging on restarts in slime under win32? 21:32:28 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:32:53 -!- soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has quit ["commuting home"] 21:33:45 <_3b> btbngr: how do you mean? haven't noticed any problems with it here... 21:34:30 _3b? oh, really? that's interesting. basically if any error occurs, i lose control over sbcl, and slime whines about "pipeline request..." 21:34:38 it's like the socket is hanging and that's that 21:34:42 <_3b> what version of slime? 21:35:06 3b: uh, i downloaded the latest, but what's the incantation to get the exact release information? :) 21:35:22 drewc: my post-commit hook isn't working yet for ansi-tests (subversion repository) 21:35:26 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:38 _3b: ; SLIME 2008-09-28 on connect 21:35:41 drewc: is that a known problem? (it reports: no mailer.py found) 21:35:48 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:35:54 ehu: IT's not known yet. 21:35:56 it's 21:36:01 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 21:36:01 <_3b> hmm, i have 2008-09-22, so might have broken since then 21:36:02 -!- interested [n=interest@193.43.249.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:36:17 i suppose i'm missing mailer.py .. any idea where that comes from? 21:36:46 it's one of the extra tools that comes with svn 21:36:55 yes. it's one of the additional packages with svn. 21:37:04 _3b: hmm, curious 21:37:09 if you mean from which deb, I'll have to find out. hold on. 21:37:20 kreuter: re lisp.org, the other thing is lisp.org + crappy, dated website << no lisp.org at all 21:37:27 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 21:37:34 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:43 <_3b> btbngr: now that i think about it though, i use an odd setup, let me try normal connection style 21:37:56 _3b: okay, thanks for this 21:38:18 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2F4ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:38:56 <_3b> btbngr: hmm, might be broken here too 21:39:12 ah see. xD 21:39:25 keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:35 cool, installing sbcl was really easy. and I see now it has asdf-install, too... 21:40:37 although I can't find a file named clbuild.. 21:40:39 <_3b> btbngr: probably best to send a mail to the slime mailing list 21:41:09 _3b: yup, will do, thanks for trying though :) 21:41:28 b4: the clbuild instructions are at http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/ 21:43:17 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:24 -!- H4nsX [n=H4ns@p57A0C422.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:43:28 ah, thanks Xach 21:43:47 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:44:31 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:45:01 ehu: i've installed svnmailer, which is apparently "It is derived from the original mailer.py distributed with subversion, but supposed to be much more consistent, better extensible and to have much more features." 21:45:22 ehu: but it still doesn't seem to have mailer.py in it :( 21:45:35 hrm 21:46:11 http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk/tools/hook-scripts/mailer/mailer.py 21:46:21 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:46:28 yay! weblocks is in clbuild! 21:46:34 foom: you also need the svn python bindings for mailer.py 21:46:34 ehu: got it 21:46:38 try now? 21:46:39 so a deb is better. 21:46:52 the svn python bindings come with the svn deb I think 21:46:55 it was in subversion-tools 21:47:06 ah. ok. I'll try another commit then :-) 21:49:10 drewc: where did it get installed? 21:49:22 /usr/bin? 21:49:35 /usr/share/subversion/hook-scripts/mailer/mailer.py 21:49:41 drewc: the post-commit hook wants it in /usr/local/bin 21:50:00 ehu: then the post-commit hook is broken. 21:50:07 :-) 21:50:13 it's the standard one. 21:50:17 is that somthing i have to fix? 21:50:41 it's the one c-l.net delivered with the project. 21:50:47 my subversion know-how does not go far past disdain. 21:50:59 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 21:51:00 -!- robot_jesus [n=csanders@hoovers-241.hoovers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:51:06 ok, i see, it's our fault! 21:51:07 I think it's just a symlink to a global script. 21:51:33 ok, i can fieex 21:51:34 well, I think you have to fix it, I may be able to help, however. 21:51:52 (but I won't be able to edit the global script) 21:54:41 ehu: any news? Commit rights? Planning to commit Closure.java.cleanup10.patch? 21:55:04 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:55:15 Also, anything about Alessio's jsr 272 stuff? 21:55:49 whoa, I mean jsr 223 21:55:52 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:22 ehu: ok, try now. 21:57:34 -!- EvanR [n=chatzill@adsl-222-39-183.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:58:25 ehh... sorry for interrupting again, but I think there is a problem... http://pastebin.com/d5f9cfbe8 -- from what I understand (a bit of googling etc) this is a problem with the setup of that repository? 21:59:10 drewc: still same error 21:59:15 lisppaste: url? 21:59:15 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 22:00:48 b4: that's because common-lisp.net cvs is currently borked 22:00:54 oh dang 22:01:02 b4: i'm woking on it 22:01:04 working 22:01:12 drewc: the global post-commit is in /usr/local/bin/svn-post-commit 22:01:14 ok, I'll just wait a while, then :) 22:01:24 (in case you were wondering) 22:01:32 tx 22:03:00 ehu: thanks! 22:03:03 ehu: try now 22:04:55 different error, but yes, it invoked mailer.py now. 22:05:23 w00t! 22:05:27 what's the new error? 22:05:59 it's complaining about the fact there's no domain specified for the user which is trying to send the commit mail. 22:07:14 mostly off topic, but I find it awsome that this group exists: http://www.eusprig.org/index.htm 22:07:38 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-136-40.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:11 lol 22:11:08 also http://www.spreadsheetrisks.com/ 22:11:16 there seem to be a whole pile of these people 22:11:44 "ensuring that senior managers and directors of small, medium and large firms are under no illusions that they must act now to control the use of untested spreadsheets in their organisations" - THE UNTESTED SPREADSHEET WILL GET YOU 22:11:54 -!- b4 is now known as hraban 22:12:43 rsynnott: well, imagine if people were using software written by people who weren't even really aware of the possibility of bugs. I think that's what a lot of spreadsheet use is like. 22:12:58 At least us trained software professionals *know* the stuff we produce is likely to be crap. 22:13:41 frito [n=keith@host81-146-7-114.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:42 "Research has repeatedly shown that an alarming proportion of corporate spreadsheet models are not tested to the extent necessary to support Directors' fiduciary, reporting and compliance obligations." - I really have no doubt this is true, and it's not really lol-worthy. 22:14:48 gigamonkey: and because you're not affraid to tell your customers, management tends to make use of their highly skilled internal personnel to create *working* spreadsheets... 22:14:56 gigamonkey: how do you test spreadsheets? I mean, is it even possible to "run" a spreadsheet in batch? 22:15:51 pjb: sure. if you know how to create macros. most controllers don't however, so then what would the definition of 'test run' be? 22:16:12 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:16:13 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:35 Exactly. You need a programmer to test, and once you have a programmer, you can dish excel and use a real programming language to develop a real program. 22:17:02 I don't have anything against spreadsheets, but I do wish that the model had evolved in the past twenty years. 22:17:30 Maybe there's a better tool out there that I don't know about, but even the one good innovation over the normal model I've seen (multidimensional spreadsheets) failed to get much traction. 22:17:55 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:24 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-253-20.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:26 Improv had separate formulas, amongst other improvements. 22:19:19 pjb: I would like to see that supplemented with a dataflow programming model. 22:19:26 (< lisp 3) 22:19:33 like with PHP, it's not so much spreadsheets that are the problem---it's how people use it 22:21:47 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:19 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 22:22:33 Nate75Sanders [n=nate@cpe-70-95-150-184.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:15 chandler: where did you find these multi dimensional spreadsheets? 22:23:24 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["eaten by grue"] 22:24:00 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:24:39 -!- frito [n=keith@host81-146-7-114.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:26:41 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:28:08 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:34 chandler: cells? :) 22:32:07 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.78.235] has joined #lisp 22:32:28 Is kenny still on about that? 22:32:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:50 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:02 ehu: Improv was multidimentional. You could move dimentions from one axis to the other to rearrange ("rotate") the cells. 22:35:10 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Improv 22:36:17 Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@cmu-24-35-47-21.mivlmd.cablespeed.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:43 Does anyone know how I can change the position of a frame in CLIM (specifically McCLIM)? 22:41:07 chumsley [n=user@dsl-207-112-93-37.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 22:41:22 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-58-55.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:42:40 drewc, will the news feed from the common-lisp.net homepage be updated with the status of the cvs server once its fixed...? 22:42:41 -!- beslyrus [n=Brucio-8@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:42:50 -!- hraban is now known as b4|hraban 22:43:42 b4|hraban: yup, i'll be updating the news feed tonight as soon as cvs works. 22:43:53 ok, thanks 22:44:39 hi, how is evolved ECL ? 22:45:06 -!- asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-96-241-127-243.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:45:09 It's not evolved, it's intelligently designed 22:45:34 *oudeis* grins 22:46:01 froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 22:46:19 Is there any way to just get the coordinates of a window on screen? 22:47:01 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:13 probably by going through the sheet mirror of the frame's top level sheet 22:47:22 but that's just a wild guess, might not work 22:47:42 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 22:48:16 it's odd that you ask about changing the position of app frames, as I have recently been dealing with a support request to that effect on *cough something mumble* 22:49:06 I've been Googling and haven't found anything. I'm trying the CLIM User Guide now. 22:49:08 what I found wasn't very cheer-inducing, unfortunately 22:49:17 Hmm, why? 22:49:29 AFAICT, there's no obvious way to query or change the frame position once it's created 22:49:54 Bleh :/ 22:49:59 mcclim may be an exception - try the guess with the top level sheet 22:50:06 but in classic clim, it's unlikely to work 22:50:11 (for now) (: 22:50:20 McCLIM is what I'm using. 22:50:24 What's the top level sheet? 22:50:42 clim frame-top-level-sheet 22:50:43 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/28-3.html#_1505 22:51:00 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:51:21 s 22:53:02 The doc page of bordeaux-threads is down since last night. Is there a way to see the doc?? (You can find the link to doc page from here. http://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/) 22:53:25 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:53:50 tomoyuki28jp: the doc is mainly visible in the sources. 22:53:58 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:54:04 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:54:10 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:54:31 tomoyuki28jp: read: src/default-implementations.lisp 22:54:32 -!- Captain_Thunder [n=jimmymil@cmu-24-35-47-21.mivlmd.cablespeed.com] has quit [] 22:55:36 pjb: Thanks a lot! you helped me a lot.. 22:55:36 night 22:56:11 hmm, drewc: is it just me or does the news feed not hold the two latest entries (from 2008)? 22:56:38 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 22:56:38 a-s [i=root@93.112.71.47] has joined #lisp 22:56:47 b4|hraban: this entirely possible. 22:57:44 ^is 22:58:58 wow .. parse_config() from CVS is one scary beast. 22:58:59 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9eba572527a703ad] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:59:11 hmm 22:59:18 *drewc* grabs a chair and a bullwhip and jumps in the ring. 22:59:46 any particular reason why (directory (parse-namestring "/home/mmondor/asdf/*")) would not return all directory names in it, if permissions are allright and /bin/ls does? 23:00:07 phadthai: * means somethin different in CL than in shell. 23:00:19 oh I thought it was system-dependent 23:00:21 phadthai: * even means something different in the various CL implementations... 23:00:22 nice to know 23:00:34 DIRECTORY is not /bin/ls; this often confuses people. 23:01:01 -!- froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:01:05 it's not, but I expected it to use os-provided globbing I guess :) thanks 23:01:05 phadthai: the question is whether * match only name or also name.type ; my reading of CLHS is that it should only match name. That is, with no dot. 23:01:06 -!- bhyde_ [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:01:12 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:20 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-114.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:01:25 rme, $ /bin/ls '/tmp/*' does not work either, for that matter 23:01:32 the * is expanded by the shell, not by ls... 23:01:37 Also, "/home/mmondor/asdf/* won't match any directory, normally (but some implementations do). 23:01:51 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-223.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:02:31 phadthai: so to be sure, I'd do (remove-duplicates (append (directory "base/*") (directory "base/*.*") (directory "base/*/") (directory "base/*.*/")) :test (function equal)), the last two patterns if you want directories too. 23:02:36 pjb: indeed, after checking the missing elements had a dot in them 23:02:37 Chapter 15 in PCL might be good to read. 23:02:58 phadthai: note that some implementations may skip files starting with dots too... 23:03:05 rme: will revise it 23:03:08 pjb: sure :) 23:03:26 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:03:37 since this is for ~/.sbclrc it doesn't matter much once it works I guess :) 23:04:16 phadthai: it depends. From my various ~/.sbclrc, ~/.clisprc etc. I (load "~/common.lisp") and do most everything portably... 23:05:04 hmm ok; it's probably fortunate that I only use one implementation then 23:05:05 (of course, I don't use "~/common.lisp", but the portable form.) 23:05:40 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:06:36 thanks for the tips and example, I'll go re-read chapter 15 of pcl 23:06:57 cemerick [n=la_mer@24-177-58-26.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:40 hi, how can i get a list of symbols ('a1 'a2 'a3 ... 'a8) simply calling e.g. (gensymbols 'a 1 8) ? 23:07:53 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 23:07:53 maxote: ('a1 'a2 ...) is not a list of symbols. 23:07:57 It's a list of list. 23:08:20 Each element is a list of two elements; the symbol QUOTE and the symbol A1,... 23:08:38 maxote: so what do you want? A list of symbols, or a list of lists? 23:08:46 i don't know how do it in sbcl 23:09:10 maxote: first you would have to know "what". Then perhaps we could discuss "how". 23:09:21 maxote: What do you want? A list of symbols, or a list of lists? 23:10:12 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.125.147.185] has joined #lisp 23:10:17 i want it, input of evaluation is (gensymbols 'a 1 8) --> output of evaluation is ('a1 'a2 'a3 ... 'a8) 23:11:07 (defun gensymbols (base from to) (loop for i from from to to collect (list (quote quote) (intern (format nil "~A~D" base i))))) 23:11:37 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 23:11:48 pjb, very thanks! 23:12:03 I don't think so. But you insisted... 23:14:28 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:15:15 -!- kij`` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:23 froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 23:15:39 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:15:45 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:12 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:16:44 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@24-177-58-26.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [] 23:16:52 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:29 enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:43 -!- Nate75Sanders [n=nate@cpe-70-95-150-184.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:25:10 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:25:44 Is it possible to redefine the way a CLOS object is printed (with print or pprint)? 23:25:55 yes. 23:26:01 define a print-object method for that class. 23:26:09 define a generic method print-object that specializes on it. 23:26:28 pbj, bougyman: OK, thanks! 23:26:29 (defgeneric print-object (object stream)) 23:26:43 follow that. 23:26:47 bougyman: the generic function is already defined. Don't do that. 23:26:54 pjb: i know 23:27:03 i meant that's the args that his must comply with. 23:27:04 (defmethod print-object ((object my-class) stream) ...) 23:27:44 enigmus: useful to implement conformantly print-object is the print-unreadable-object macro. 23:30:09 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-58-55.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 23:30:19 pbj: hmm, is it necessary to implement the full semantics of print-object? (like *print-escape*) Is my specialization of print-object going to be use in some implicit ways? 23:30:36 -!- froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:30:39 enigmus: That's what PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT is for. 23:30:51 enigmus: It's better to do it, and indeed, you only have to use print-unreadable-object. 23:30:59 Mostly it just makes sure PRINT-OBJECT will barf appropriately when needed. 23:32:54 ah ok, the Hyperspec now makes sense. Thanks. 23:32:58 enigmus: once you define a print-object method, it is used everytime an instance of that class must be printed, whatever the circumstance. 23:33:02 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:34:42 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:39:33 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.78.235] has left #lisp 23:42:58 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:41 froog_____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 23:44:43 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:44:59 disumu [n=disumu@p57A2517E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:11 hmm is there a widely used convention on how to format a printable object? (and possibly of defining a corresponding reader-macro syntax for it) 23:45:19 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C0EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:45:46 phadthai: the easiest thing is to print it using #. 23:45:54 if so, I guess that with a small hack around MOP all new classes could be printable automatically 23:46:05 phadthai, do you mean `a readable object'? 23:46:22 so that it can be re-read back by lisp 23:47:16 i.e. an output format similar to what defstruct provides automatically 23:48:46 Riastradh: well I meant an unprintable object which we make printable adding a print-object method for 23:48:54 b4|hraban: cvs is fixed 23:49:06 drewc, great! thanks :) 23:52:05 Heh. Regarding our earlier discussion of lisp.org I was checking out perl.org, python.org, haskell.org, etc. Then I said, hmmm, let's try perl.com. Okay. python.com. Yikes! NSFW. 23:52:31 zowie 23:52:55 yeah, i noticed that last week when looking for inspiration for the cl.net front page. 23:53:38 Were you inspired? 23:54:30 I was :) 23:54:46 *b4|hraban* afk (time for some "inspiration"...) 23:55:00 out $40 though :P 23:55:12 lisp.com (redirects to http://www.yeah.com/) is only slightly better 23:55:13 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.228.1] has quit [] 23:55:26 oh my. python.com. Hahaha 23:56:55 find some compromising picture of John McCarthy...? 23:57:10 that should do it. 23:58:30 syamajala2_ [n=syamajal@140.232.182.214] has joined #lisp 23:59:17 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes